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hey guys welcome along to this episode of Runners only with Tom Harvey um a bit different to the normal episode
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this is a New Zealand exclusive first and foremost uh yesterday in New Zealand news came out that Zane Robertson one of
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the greatest New Zealand distance Runners of all time and Commonwealth Games bronze medalist had been um had
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tested positive for the drug EPO and had received a seven year ban four years for
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taking the drug EPO and three years for then trying to cover it up he is based in um attendant in Kenya and he spoke
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exclusively to us on the runners only podcast um I normally like to do this interviews
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face to face but Kenya's a long way away so we did this online but this is Zane's
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side of the story on Runners only with dom Harvey Zane Robertson so it's less than 24
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hours here in New Zealand since the news came out how are you um obviously not a great day for me uh I
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have no one this news will come come out and I have no one for the last few months so or some since September
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last year so it's been a pretty depressing devastating day for me and your phone must have been blowing up um
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what's the sort of tone of the messages is it you know mainly support from people that know and love you or is he
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like scorn from you know people that are just outraged by what's happened thankfully my inbox system on Instagram
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does support me and it's only people that are close to me and from what I've seen 80 has been really
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supportive and just caring about me as a human first and not an athlete and a lot
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of these people have known me for years so they do understand the circumstances and
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situations that I've faced um a lot of it the 20 other 20 of the rest of it has been scored and just
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people trying to shame me and make me feel horrible and I tell you what I've I
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feel horrible myself for a long time even before this um drug case came about yeah
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um I suppose the the big question uh it's actually a very short question but
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it's a it's a very big one at the same time why yeah so the the why there's many reasons
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and it's not just one particular reason and and I hate it so much that um you know it's it's just a one-off hit
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and I got caught and I it's it's been it's been building on me for a few years frustration and anger at
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the sport itself and at any any Elite Sports I just believe the top is it's not a Level Playing Field like they're
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saying why do people like myself I started to ask myself this question why do people like myself
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always have to be the ones to lose or suffer and in the end lose our contracts lose our income lose our race winnings
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and eventually end up not having the ability to have a family or um live anywhere else in the world
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from the predicaments we're in that was one reason the other reason well especially after
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covert the covert era prize money and races went down contracts were almost dropped as well
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after the Olympics I was told by one of my companies we thought you'd run better
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and immediate exit from the from the deal the other company was holding on just to
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the bare minimum I had pressure from my management I was constantly getting injured in the race shoes that I was
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trying to develop and nothing was seeming to just go my way I had a lot of background noise away from the
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running world as well with after the covert era living in New Zealand for a while I spent a lot of my life savings
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on just trying to survive and what was in the savings account I was providing for myself and my wife at the time
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after the we left New Zealand we already knew we were going through going to go through a divorce period and it was a
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nasty divorce proceeding and some some things led to led to another and a lot of stress was placed on me and
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I made it I made some bad decisions in a really dark yes so so talk us through um
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EPO um most of us have no idea what it means you hear EPO you think Lance Armstrong
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and the Tour de France what what exactly is EPO and and what does it do because you were a bloody fast runner even
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without it yeah so it's it's a simplistic thing it's even naturally occurring I've
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learned a lot more about this through my just through my recent studies and everything but um
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we have it naturally in the body and when you add it synthetically apparent it helps the red blood cells
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to develop more in the body and that that produces more oxygen to be pushed around the body so you can let's
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say run faster for longer without feeling it okay so say can you try and put in some terms that
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like regular people listening to this would understand so say that the Half Marathon distance for example 21.1 case
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say there's someone listening to this that um can run a half marathon in two
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hours if they took EPO what could they do afterwards uh well really it comes completely it's
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different for everyone I guess I I haven't used I didn't use it long enough to know the real effects and I
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the one time I took it I did feel that I could move in training like I was in great shape and and clearly I wasn't in
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great shape before it it just makes you feel a lot easier when you're pushing at your maximum for
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a lot longer so I guess it could have the effect on training like over a long period of
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time as well that it's it's helping recovery it's helping you train harder longer many more days
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such effects it might take one minute of someone's time it might take zero minutes or it
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could take 10 minutes off if they're at two hours it's it's probably different for
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everyone but I'm not a scientist so I can't say what would you say to people that are
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listening to this that go well you lied about this why should we believe you now
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well I have been tested over 50 times in my career and after every single race that I've ever competed well in I've
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been tested before the races after the races and my samples can be um they are stored for the next 10 years
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after the events so um 10 years is a long time and once new technology and new tests are becoming
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available they're retested again so there's been no problems with my my past samples
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and I guess that's just the evidence side of it yeah but um and what's the what's the process with
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EPO so you decide um you decide you need this Edge or you need some you know some
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sort of Advantage where do you where do you go how do you start the conversation
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with is it someone that you're trained with that you know is taking it is it a
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chat with a doctor like how does it start oh well for my case it was very unique and it's
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very different um my um my ex-wife and I we started talking about this thing a while like a few
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years back because I was frustrated with the sport already and it kept building the more the more I just saw and the
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more I learned and the more I knew people I used to know and I still know and I just it's getting my ass handed to me
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in every race and I just kept asking how and how is this possible how's this
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happening now and we started talking about it a lot and um one day she just showed up back to the
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house with it and and it stayed in the house for a very long time and when I moved when I
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finally did move to Kenya I I moved with it I moved with some of my stuff over the side and again it stayed in my house
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for a very long time and so yeah I mean but but just in in general in general day to day
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I can't say too much because of my situation and where I live man and you you understand that it's it's a culture
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of sport that's it yeah if it is um if it is part of the culture of a sport and a particular high
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performance sport why is it that so few people get caught sadly sadly man it's um
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I'm not sure why that is I have no evidence why that is I do know it's a very hard drug to detect very
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very hard because the body produces it naturally so the difference between the two the
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natural and synthetic and not that difference and um doctors are always ahead of the game one
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step um people are always you know when money's involved people are always evolving to
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make more money so sport sport is also a business yeah so so you got caught after
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a um run in May 2022 at Manchester um so you complete the run then you go into a testing room provide a urine
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sample uh what talk us what talk us through what happens after that well once I've done that then um
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they leave with my samples and I was I was free to go just walk around normal do my thing
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I was notified last year in September when I was in Sydney at the to actually Pace the marathon
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and um I obviously was in a lot of shock and stress and just not knowing what to do
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so I didn't sleep all night I I performed as a pacemaker there and I performed poorly
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um obviously people who know that stress can lead to poor performance physically
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um I was I was suffering a long time before this even happened but I guess I guess you'll get to that
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so once I found out in Sydney then the next proceedings were to get a lawyer and see what my options are yeah
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because your your Banning sort of came in two parts this uh four years um Banning for the EPO and then
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additional years tagged on the end for trying to cover it up was um the cover-up idea is that something that's
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commonly done in Kenya or was that your lawyer's idea was that your idea um I I want to take full blame for that as
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well that was my idea to me four years is the same as eight it's the end of my career
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it there's no coming back from this and I knew so I was just trying to save my ass and
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I want people to think like really deeply think if if that was them if that invested like 16 years into trying to be
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a professional um and they were going to lose their career because of one [ __ ] up then I I guess
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that I guess a lot of people would try and save their ass and that's just what
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I tried to do yeah oh and I fully understand you um there's a guy called um Peter
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fitzinger I don't know if you know the name but he's um the Athletics New
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Zealand chief executive um he had he had a quote yesterday saying it's hard to know what would lead
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the athlete to make us the series of decisions he did um how would you respond to that
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um he's speaking from a professional standpoint he can't say well he hasn't lived
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in the professional running world for a while and he wasn't he was a professional Runner himself but
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I mean I made a bad decision and I I'm paying the price for it and I I understand that this is what you get
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try being me try being um 16 years in this sport ends um not having a lot to show for it
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but also realizing that you can't move back back home to New Zealand ever you can't maybe
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have a family ever because you can't provide enough and if Sports you're only
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a source of income and you're running out of income options covert's wiped out the prize money
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Theory and the appearance money Theory then you you what do you have left um I mean
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it's it's a it's a terrible situation that I was in but that's and there were a lot of things that led
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up to that as well like um like my depression and um and it's just making me make bad
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decisions yeah I think um yeah I asked you at the very beginning of this chat that your why and um I I
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think my just following your your story and your brother's story quite closely
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over the years I think like my why would be probably slightly different um on behalf of you guys like someone
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said to me yesterday why would he do it my why went something like this I said these guys have spent more time in
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Kenyan than what they've spent in New Zealand like they were they were they were bullied at school
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um not just by peers but by teachers and stuff as well and they had a taste of success in running and they sort of
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Gateway out of this and to make something of themselves so they left Hamilton new zealanders teenagers went
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to Kenya put everything on the line against their parents wishes um we're living on Jam sandwiches you
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know had malaria at the same time and just about died and will wake up in the night in cold sweats checking on each
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other and you do put so much into this thing and get so far over so many years and you're just looking for that extra
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little Edge so even I'm not not justifying what you've done because it's
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bad and we all know it's bad um but I can I can understand your wife from an empathetic point of view bro
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foreign yeah I think I think that's another reason um our upbringing my there were a lot of things that
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weren't normal a lot of things that didn't go right and I think that's why
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when I got depressed I started talking to a psychiatrist in the high performance Sports system and he helped
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me through a lot of things um I wanted to die I didn't want to live anymore and I didn't know why I was
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doing the sport anymore and I think that would have been just the right time to maybe try and find something else to do
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and retire unfortunately we don't always make the right decisions and um sadly as a professional athlete we're
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always really in the public eye and just judged for these decisions and mistakes
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that we make and then um called out for them in in horrible ways so I'm trying to deal with this in the best
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way possible right now and I still don't know what that is but I'm just trying to make
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I'm just trying to make it right mentally how's your headspace at the moment
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not not good to be honest today um today was one of my worst days um if I'm gonna be totally honest I
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coming home from my brother's place today I just wanted to go and shoot myself in the head
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man that's rough yeah I mean this is gonna pass though this is this is going to pass these um
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yeah okay you just have to hang in there right have you you got yeah you've got good
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support not really um my brother's a little bit pissed off too because I know and this was the worst
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thing for me because I knew that it won't just be affecting me it will affect um it will affect my
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sister-in-law his wife because they're both athletes and I don't I just don't know like how to
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how to help or how to do anything yeah so this is your brother Jake who's also
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a phenomenal Runner and I must say um on all the uh media footage that's been
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shown in New Zealand over the last 24 hours it's generally runs where you guys
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are together in the black singlet so I I suppose just by association he's sort of
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being tired with the same brush which is um which is unfair of course it's it's very unfair I mean
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if if one student in a classroom cheats are they all cheating just because they're all in that same
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classroom it's it's that's it's [ __ ] and people want to do that to him and
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they've already started posting on his wall today and and it's horrible man
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it's it's just terrible yeah a bit of empathy had go a long way I mean um like I can see it on your face like
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you you've made a you've made a bad mistake you recognize that but you're
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you're paying the ultimate price now the last thing you need is Strangers Like
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messaging you telling you you've made a terrible mistake I think um yeah yeah yeah I mean
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I already know it and I'm I'm gonna pay the price for that and and thankfully I have received a lot of a
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lot of people out there just reaching out to me and and normally it's the people that I have met before in my life
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somewhere in the last 10 years or 16 years and I've always been real with them and I've always discussed sometimes
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even these topics with them in a real way with my real opinions and I think that's why they uh they really
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understand me at this point and they're telling me things like um just I'll always be here for you man no
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matter what so um take it easy on yourself and you know I I understand where you came
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from and it's horrible to see this happen to you it we know you made a mistake but we're
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just here for you things like this yeah oh that's good advice so you want to um
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a bronze medal uh in the 5 000 meters at the 24 2014 Commonwealth Games um so you were completely clean then
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yeah yes what happens with that middle you don't get stripped of that that's
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still yours for life and the title remains that is impossible um to just strip me of that metal
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and that was a very long time ago I mean see it's nine years my sample should still be there if if they want to
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go and retest it Go and retest it Go and retest all of my samples I know this costs money but if they really want to
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they can do it they can go right ahead and I have nothing to hide from my past from all my national records from all my
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past achievements um they can they can go ahead and test yeah and um you've got some other records as
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well the New Zealand record holder and the half marathon with a blistering sub 60 5947 you've got the marathon record
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two hours eight nine seconds and um what happens to them do they remain yeah everything remains
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um the only the only drug test I've ever failed is the one from Manchester and I placed 11th in the
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race I was I was actually very sick before heading to the race I I don't know if the guy I mean
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obviously I'm not I wasn't myself I wasn't making good decisions in my in my
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normal headspace um but yeah the marathon record in the half marathon record I was tested in the Gold
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Coast after the race I was tested in marugami in Japan after the race immediately and I produced samples both
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times within within 30 minutes of the race so there was no delay um there was not nothing wrong with the
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procedure yeah now that they they played a clip on the New Zealand media uh last
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night here in New Zealand from the 2016 Rio Olympics where you talked about doping and it's always going to be one
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of these things that's going to come back up again um you you were completely clean at the
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time and you you absolutely meant what you said back then it this is where I was just telling you about how I was
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real with people when talking to them about sometimes even this topic and and it and it was part of my frustration
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over the last 16 years in the sport like firstly I didn't understand it at all and I didn't
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know how deep it went but the more I went along in my career the more I saw of just how it is and
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and it can really destroy someone like it can break them down to their knees and think why them why not me until I
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just I just couldn't take it anymore and and I had enough yeah that's understandable
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um and then so 33 years old now um so it's career ending right so by the time the band finishes your late 30s
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early 40s I I think I'll be 39 40 when it ends I mean technically speaking I could
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actually come back and run a great Marathon I still think a 40 year old can run two five two six
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but um by then I hope to be in another place I just I don't I don't think there's a
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there's a return from here that's why I said four and eight years is the same
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thing yeah I don't know I yeah now that you mention it I mean um an athlete that
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comes to mind is um the New Zealand multi-sport Legion Cameron Brown who's 50 and has just retired from competing
00:25:06
at the top level um I mean in Ultra marathons do seem to favor you know the old the older sort of
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athletes so I I feel it's it's entirely Unwritten and it's entirely up to you
00:25:17
what you want to do um I know a few 40 year olds that have just or 40 plus year olds that have just
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run under 60 for half marathon wow um that have just run 204 206 marathons as well so
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there is no age limit to to um endurance sport which is lucky depending on how you treat your body and
00:25:42
what you eat and your nutrition and how you live as well so but it's also very it's also a huge mind
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mental sport I guess if you lose it mentally if you lose the love for it and I just feel like that's
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what happened to me I lost the love for it at the professional end it wasn't it wasn't the Zayn That I Used
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to Know and I still love running I still love running at the club level or at the Fun
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Runner level and I still love running every day but I just did not like the professional
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um event anymore um just backtracking you said a moment ago you hope to be in a different place
00:26:32
by the time the band ends like what do you mean exactly like just in a completely different sort of field or
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um I'm not sure right now to be honest I didn't think much past today uh just taking it a day at a time right
00:26:51
now yeah no I understand that how's the family back in New Zealand are they still in waikato
00:27:01
um they're everywhere and we move um it's I mean a lot a lot of them have
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heard my stories over the years as well so they they really um they sympathize with the why and the
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frustration and just how I've been living for the last the last years and um
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they they do they do get it they definitely get it yeah you you told me um that this news was coming out a
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couple of weeks ago on WhatsApp when we got talking so I'm guessing your your
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parents have known this for a while can you can you take us back to that phone call when you told them that this was
00:27:39
going to happen that must have been one of the hardest calls you've ever had to
00:27:42
make um it was it was difficult but probably the the hardest call one of the hardest calls was um the
00:27:59
first one which I actually had to make from Sydney back to back to Kenya um and just recently as well just um
00:28:12
having to tell my brother because I know most most affected from this will be my
00:28:17
family my close family over here and um that was probably the hardest thing yeah how was he how did he take it
00:28:31
now you can you can imagine um because he has he has two emotions about it you know he has the same frustration
00:28:39
as me and the same anger as me but then at the same time he he understands that this
00:28:45
will indirectly affect him as well and and then he wants to feel bad for me as well but he also wants to
00:28:55
hate me for it so I think he's going to he's going to suffer like from this a little bit as well
00:29:05
um just I need to give him some time and um another another phone call that I'm guessing I don't know if this was
00:29:14
even a phone call or an email or how this works and high performance sport but um you were an Essex Runner did you
00:29:19
have to tell them I'm I'm guessing they dropped you as quickly as what they
00:29:23
could um no actually I was dropped before I was dropped before this happened um it was actually one of the most
00:29:39
motivating factors as well that I just knew and I was being pressed by people in the management and people and
00:29:47
accompanying the shoes weren't working for me and I hadn't been running well
00:29:52
for like three years because of constant injuries I couldn't finish a race without blowing my killies and my calf
00:29:59
out and it was it was just all underlying factors of um in the end like which made me make make this mistake
00:30:12
yeah yeah I get like a sense of desperation like you you sort of do anything I guess to do the best you can
00:30:19
and preserve your career I think if there's a word for it yes desperation um desperation differently
00:30:31
comes to mind um the Olympics for me was a was a big one a huge one because I invested a lot of
00:30:41
my time and money and my own efforts into preparing for their preparing for the conditions
00:30:48
the Heat um even though I was in like um I don't know it's not really witness
00:30:56
protection or something but um I did have threats on my life from the uh uh threats on my life from the ongoing
00:31:07
divorce and extortion and um such but that's another story and I don't want to get into it
00:31:15
um it was pretty nasty so I had to I had to move up to my farm in the mountains and kind
00:31:22
of hide out for months and uh um so dealing with stress and on all angles again I think it just it didn't do me
00:31:34
well so as I mentioned before you've spent more time in Kenya now than what you've actually spent in New Zealand
00:31:41
um because you and your brother left when you're in your late teens um what happens now are you going to
00:31:46
stay there is Kenya your home now or do you need to come back to New Zealand to heal
00:31:54
I am not sure I am not sure right now I think I think it's a lot easier for me to
00:32:01
disappear here than in New Zealand so if I can just disappear I will um uh I haven't put much thought to it yet
00:32:16
um I think my my Visa situation here will run out eventually so I'll definitely need to go somewhere but
00:32:28
I'm not sure where that somewhere is yes um one of the uh big questions sort of
00:32:33
that seems to be raised here is um just the fear of this embarrassing New Zealand on the world stage like what are
00:32:39
your thoughts on that do you think this embarrasses New Zealand on the world stage
00:32:44
thank you I think I think uh I think it doesn't embarrass New Zealand I think
00:32:54
the I think all Elite Sport this is like an elite athletes across all sports must know this
00:33:04
and this is sad sad truth it's just now become part of the game and I think New Zealand's reputation is
00:33:15
really at the high end of not doing it um but it's like it also depends on what sport you're in
00:33:24
and what you're doing so I don't think I don't think it's embarrassing to New Zealand as a nation
00:33:31
or I think there's bigger things out there to focus on in sport yeah what about regrets like how do you
00:33:39
how do you get past us now how do you how do you forgive yourself and rebuild your life I mean you are you are you're
00:33:45
Zayn Robertson a man yeah running was what you did but it's not necessarily what defines you do you know what I mean
00:33:55
yeah I I think I think a lot of the people who have met me over the years know that
00:34:01
and they that's why they've reached out to me today with in such kind ways they
00:34:06
didn't just message me with some horrible things um I think the best way for me to move past this is by
00:34:18
staying with the people who are the closest to me and just trying to work on myself as well just to
00:34:27
just to realize that this was a mistake and I've already done it since September
00:34:31
last year I don't think I can do it anymore and um I mean I'm already as sorry as I can be
00:34:40
to like this to the sport to everyone else who probably believed in me and um might still some of them might
00:34:49
might not but um yeah I'm not looking for sympathy I just kind of wanted to tell my story and let
00:34:58
people try to understand that the situation the circumstances I was in wasn't so great so I'm going to work on
00:35:06
myself and stay close that's a good idea um you've been sitting on this for a
00:35:12
long time as you said and in a sense does it feel like a relief that it's out
00:35:15
now in the open and the band-aid's been ripped off or is it still too raw to see
00:35:19
it that way yeah it doesn't feel like a relief um it it definitely doesn't and the more
00:35:32
messages I get I just think the human race I think sometimes people can foreign to be a little bit nicer to one another
00:35:42
you know um just don't be so horrible to people when they're dark darkest days because you
00:35:50
never know what that person's gone through and um what they what they still have to go
00:35:56
through so like today I got I just saw some things that made me like almost considered just like
00:36:05
offing myself you know and and these people I've never met them in my life but you know if you just
00:36:14
press on someone who has a dark mind or a dark thought process at the time it's
00:36:18
not good yeah when you say things you mean like comments on social media or comments online
00:36:25
yeah things like that don't help and um I'm gonna completely exit exit the
00:36:31
social media world for just a little bit um uh but uh yeah I'll do my best have you got a
00:36:41
therapist over there or a good support network I I was staying with one of my close friends
00:36:52
um is a great um is a great psychologist but we were recently in a car accident and he broke
00:37:00
his kneecap and um he he's back in New Zealand now so I think I'll be calling him a lot yeah
00:37:09
well I mean there's always support her here in here in New Zealand you know you
00:37:12
just want to be safe um both emotionally and mentally so and physically so whether that's in Kenya or
00:37:19
here just um yeah just know that you still have like people in New Zealand that love you and support you and care
00:37:23
about you even though you're [ __ ] up yeah yeah it's kind of hard to see through the
00:37:32
[ __ ] right now and actually see that but um when I do it really it really lifts me up for a little while
00:37:43
do you have a message to fans or any kids or teens who look up to you and see you as a role model well even if it's
00:37:49
like a message of caution or warning yeah I would I would I definitely would tell them um I'm
00:38:01
really sorry that I let them all down um and I just want to um I want to tell them that this wasn't my
00:38:10
whole career I mean from from my standpoint I still stand the same on the topic and I always want to
00:38:20
um I always wanted to do my best for everyone who looked up to me in that in such a way
00:38:27
and I'm sorry I was going to ask you how you'd like to be uh like to be remembered as this chapter of your
00:38:32
career closes but I feel like you just sort of answered that really in a way yeah yeah I mean
00:38:42
I guess being remembered for um not not just for the not just for the running side of things not for running
00:38:53
fast not for Running Records or anything like that just for um kind of having a dream
00:39:01
and giving it a real shot giving it a go and giving it 100 You know despite everyone telling us that you can't do
00:39:11
this this isn't possible so that's what I'd like to be remembered for I think that that in a life sense
00:39:19
away from sport even that makes yeah makes sense yeah I like that well Zane Robertson you're um I mean you've
00:39:30
done a bad thing you know that you're already beating yourself up enough about
00:39:33
that but you're a good person and uh I don't want you to forget that everyone
00:39:37
makes mistakes it's how you bounce back that matters I think yeah sadly if I
00:39:41
bounce back it won't be in the Limelight but um that's okay too there's a lot
00:39:45
more life than that yeah I just want you to remember you're [ __ ] young on the
00:39:49
big on the big scheme of life so the running the Running part of your life may be over or it may not be that's up
00:39:54
to you but there's still a lot of good years left okay and I want you to remember that
00:40:00
oh yeah yeah definitely I mean I I wanted to get back to my roots and just enjoy sport for what it is like
00:40:09
actual fitness and fun and I still have a lot of Runners out there who are fun Runners and Club level athletes who just
00:40:16
want to do a marathon with me one day so that that will become more of my age So
00:40:22
when you say like fun run Pace what sort of what sort of marathon pace are you talking about what's like a a casual
00:40:28
Zane Robertson Fun Run pays for a marathon two and a half and it's it's whatever they want to do
00:40:37
if they want to go two and a half I'll go to another oh bro I I think yeah I think anything below 220 starting
00:40:46
to push it oh my God I think you would you would struggle you would struggle to run a marathon with me at the pace that
00:40:52
I'm running at it'd just be you'd fall asleep you'd fall asleep on the on the
00:40:55
on the road no man you'd motivate me I'd be chatting to you the whole way Hey listen you're a
00:41:03
good person and you've got a lot to offer and a lot of lessons that you can offer to other people and um I just want
00:41:08
to thank you very much for chatting today and um and I wish you well and I know the next the next you know days and
00:41:14
weeks and even months there's going to be dark moments and there's going to be um hopefully
00:41:19
some light moments as well but um as the time passes you know the light moments will get more than the dark moments and
00:41:26
um you just need to remember that it's probably a message that you've uh or a
00:41:29
mantra that you've told yourself many times in the dark spots of races just keep putting one foot in front of the
00:41:33
other yeah definitely um in in with the positive and out with the negative right now it's um
00:41:44
I've beat myself up a lot over the last months and um I I don't need to I don't need to do it
00:41:51
anymore um I'll I'll probably have to do it for the next eight years of my life
00:41:57
as it is so yeah yeah thanks for chatting with me I appreciate it Zane Zane Robertson and
00:42:04
Kenya um take care go easy on yourself Life's hard for all of us and for anyone
00:42:09
that's listening to this or watching this um there's no need to go on social media
00:42:14
and tell them he's a piece of [ __ ] he's already telling himself that enough if
00:42:18
anything right now he could probably do with your support and your love and your
00:42:22
care Zane look after yourself mate big storm [Music] thank you