00:00:06
You've been through some [ __ ] >> I've just seen all these flashing
00:00:08
lights. They threw me on the ground, pointed guns at me. My kids were awake at that time. I didn't have a criminal
00:00:13
record. I never been to jail. I didn't do anything wrong. >> What were they like from what you know?
00:00:16
>> I got sort of like a memory loss. The abuse that happened with me at the age
00:00:20
of eight. >> What does that do to a person? >> I went into a real dark space. My mom
00:00:23
was sick. Two of my kids wanted to take their life. I wanted to take my life. Detention is worse than prison. I've
00:00:28
been asked by someone, can you help me cut myself? >> Someone setting themselves on fire.
00:00:32
>> He took his life. >> What did stop you from taking your own life?
00:00:34
>> My daughter, welcome to my podcast. >> Kilda Dom, thanks for having me.
00:00:41
>> It's great to meet you and have you here in my podcast studio. >> Yeah. No, thanks, man. It's uh been a
00:00:46
bit of a miss to get here, but um we're here and we're doing it and yeah um
00:00:50
yeah, thanks for having us here. Do do you mean a miss to get here as in the journey from pick up the rental car at
00:00:55
the airport to here or you mean like the last 10 15 years? >> N the the rental car
00:01:03
we'll get into your whole the rental car is nothing compared to like the last 10
00:01:07
20 years of your life. You've you've you've been through some [ __ ]
00:01:11
>> Yep. Yeah. Know I have. So yeah, >> finish the sentence for me. I'm not a
00:01:16
501. I am >> um I'm a youth worker. I'm a survivor. Um and you know, we talk about people on
00:01:30
social media about being influencers and and stuff like that. For me, um you know, I want to create that space for
00:01:39
change change makers. >> You know, the change makers are the people that make changes in their life
00:01:45
and help others as well. So, um I like to, you know, be that person in my community to um to be to be a change
00:01:54
maker, you know. Um I don't look at myself as um an influencer or a mentor, you know, I'm a qualified youth worker
00:02:04
now and um I just make changes in my community and wherever I can to help um especially. So, yeah, that's um me.
00:02:16
That's just scratching the surface. Yeah. Dad of seven as well. >> Yep. Dad of seven.
00:02:21
>> Is Is that all we know about? Is that >> Yes. I'm a Yep. So I'm a dad of seven.
00:02:27
Um I have five grandkids now of um Yeah. Um four boys, one girl. Um my kids, I have six girls, one boy. Um when we have
00:02:39
that boy, we always think, "Yeah, daddy's boy." But uh he's not. He's
00:02:43
mommy's boy. So, I've got got the girl. So, yeah. Yep. >> What do people misunderstand most about
00:02:50
the 501 label? >> Um, man, everyone thinks 501's are the baddest or the baddest, you know. Um,
00:03:01
there's all there's all sorts of 501's, man. There's all sorts of 501's that are coming
00:03:07
through. Um, you know, I see a 501 as, you know, getting deported. Um, you know, we heard
00:03:18
in the media about, you know, we're the worst of the worst. We're just trash.
00:03:22
We're we're this and that, but, you know, it's it's not all all all that,
00:03:28
you know. Uh, we all we've all got different stories, >> you know. We all come from different
00:03:32
walks of life um and and stuff like that. So, when you're actually in the in
00:03:39
the system and when you're filing your your case, um, and you see who's who and
00:03:45
why and who gets their visas back, um, it's all up and down. It's it's not a,
00:03:50
um, it's not all the same thing. So, yeah, you know, 501 is we we've been
00:03:56
labeled as a a gang, you know, 501 gang. There's no 501 gang, you know, it's just
00:04:02
a label that we that we have. What does that label feel like when it's attached
00:04:06
to you personally? >> Um, for me it's part of my story. >> You know, I've got a lot of brothers out
00:04:12
there that they they don't want to talk about being a 501, they don't think
00:04:17
themselves even when they've changed their lives. But for me, um, every talk
00:04:21
I have, you know, it's just part of my story of where I am today. Um, like I
00:04:27
say, I've walked a my my journey is a little bit different to some of the other 501's. um you know but um like I
00:04:36
say it's where we are labeled you know being criminals being the baddest of the
00:04:43
baddest and stuff like that and um I've met met a few five ones that aren't
00:04:47
aren't like that you know so um you know getting sent home for you know minor
00:04:53
minor offenses and not even not even any so um yeah >> well I can't wait to get into the story
00:05:00
because you got sent home just for um What was that? What's the term? It's
00:05:05
like questionable character or >> Yeah, they call it the character grounds. Um I was actually on um you
00:05:11
know there some of us were on there was a 501 or a 503. 503 is to do with secret
00:05:16
information. How do how do we get secret information? The government don't want to give it to
00:05:22
us because then they're giving away their so-called secret. I don't know
00:05:26
what their secret information was. um that I'm I was in an outlaw motorcycle
00:05:32
motorcycle club or or what. But um for me, you know, um part of my story is that I got done for association. You
00:05:40
know, I didn't have a criminal record. Um I had Australian kids and I never been to jail, but I went to jail uh when
00:05:50
they deported me and I ended up ended up in there for 6 months. So all in up I was uh fighting my case for 22 months
00:05:58
for for pretty much a character ground where you know I didn't by law it's you
00:06:04
know you didn't have um a serious criminal record or never spent more than 12 months in in jail you know and that
00:06:12
was back in 2015. So, and a lot of things have changed there, but it's um it it's ridiculous how and or how they
00:06:21
are sending people back to to New Zealand. And yeah, and and part of my journey too is sitting there fighting my
00:06:29
case and everyone says, "Yeah, but you're you're a bikey, you know, you
00:06:34
should have got sent home ages ago, this and that." But end of the day, I didn't
00:06:38
do anything wrong, you know, and you put me in jail for it, you know, for not doing anything wrong, you know. Yeah.
00:06:45
>> Yeah. It's a it's a wild story. And just to um hook people in now, um we're going
00:06:50
to we're going to go through this path um in chronological order. Um but your time as a free man in
00:06:57
Australia ended with you just driving to work at 7:00 in the morning one morning
00:07:00
and um getting pulled over by a by a bunch of cops and being thrown in jail just on your way to on your way to work
00:07:05
as a carpet layer. >> Yeah. And that's crazy. >> Yeah, it was crazy. And um I was sort of
00:07:10
watching you know um a couple other brothers that were getting pulled in and um you know those those brothers were um
00:07:21
you know they done their time you know uh they been out of trouble for for quite a while and then um it was uh
00:07:29
couple couple of nights before I got pulled up um another one of our close brothers you know he served in the army
00:07:37
and um you know when he got pulled in he was sort of the same boat as me. I'm
00:07:42
like, "Oh, okay." Now I'm thinking, my mind's going. It's like, "Oh, you know,
00:07:47
am I going to be next?" But I didn't think that because I didn't have a
00:07:49
criminal record, never been to jail. So, I just lived life normal. And then, yeah, uh the 2nd of November, I think it
00:07:56
was uh Monday, Monday morning. >> And it was actually thing because I was actually on the phone talking to my
00:08:03
mate's partner and just making sure, you know, if if she's okay, is their family
00:08:08
okay and stuff like that. And then man, I just seen um seen all these these lights go off, you know, didn't hear no
00:08:15
noise or anything. Just looked in the rearview room and um I just seen all these flashing lights and I just knew
00:08:21
that something's up and um you just got sworn by them. >> I mean, yeah, two year two years of um
00:08:27
losing your freedom before being deported back to New Zealand. Um >> does the government here in New Zealand
00:08:33
need to be doing more? >> Yeah, they do. >> Like what? like when 2015 is when it it started
00:08:42
building um you know uh they started doing heat and stuff like that. People started getting out there and talking
00:08:50
about it. Uh I met some met some people um that come and visit me over in Albany
00:08:56
prison. Uh they were about to do a um I do a walk around Australia. Uh I think uh what's his name? Kelvin Davis was
00:09:03
there and um having those conversations on why why are we getting deported? Why,
00:09:11
you know, um and and honestly, man, there was a certain person in power, you know, for me, I looked at it as, you
00:09:19
know, he's in power now. He he just wants to be a bully, >> you know, he um he wants to have
00:09:26
authority and stuff like that. And um for for us to have the conversations on on 501's, you know, I've met so many
00:09:36
different people that have done different sort of crimes. But when you sit in a detention center and for
00:09:43
association, you see all these people getting their visas back. You know, I've
00:09:46
seen a couple of people getting it three or four times in and out of detention. You know, here I am sitting here going,
00:09:52
man, what have I done wrong? Association. Yeah. Okay. But like I don't him done a crime, you know.
00:09:58
>> Uh and a lot of the other boys in there have changed their lives, you know. But
00:10:02
I've just seen these followers with, you know, with um records that should have
00:10:07
been deported. >> I'm not being thing or anything, but the they they're free, you know. They get a
00:10:12
they get a second chance in life, >> you know. Um and for there was six of
00:10:17
us, you know, and for me to sit there and I couldn't go up on the the board,
00:10:22
you know, in front of the panel. I had to go to the highest of the high court and um I had to sit there and just wait.
00:10:29
Even our lawyers, you know, we had the best lawyers in Australia to do the you know do the court case and even they
00:10:36
were just like man what do we do? You know what what's the answer? So yeah, it
00:10:41
it was um hard and it is hard to see, you know, it's hard to see people that
00:10:47
live most their life in um in Australia getting deported. You know, when other people get second chances and and have
00:10:54
that option, some of us don't get that. >> Since 2014, uh there's 3,000 Kiwis that
00:11:00
have been deported from Australia as 501's and around half of them have gone
00:11:04
on to like reaffend back in New Zealand. Why do you think that is? And why are you on the good side of that 50%.
00:11:11
>> A lot of these people come home to nothing. They don't know anyone. You
00:11:15
know, their family's over there. You know, what are they coming back to? Coming back to what $250 and the weeks
00:11:23
weeks of um you know, in a hotel, what's you know, what's going to happen after
00:11:28
that? You know, I'm not going to sit here and talk on behalf of everyone, but
00:11:33
for me, I come home. I haven't been home for a while. Obviously, I had the club.
00:11:38
Uh, but I had heaps of family here, >> you know. I had I had a I had a plan and
00:11:43
what I was going to do um and who and how I was going to do it, but it was just hard leaving my family back there
00:11:49
to come back and sort my stuff here, you know. Um, yeah, it it's it's hard for our people,
00:11:57
you know. We got to stop blaming, you know, got to stop blaming the clubs and the gangs for picking these people up.
00:12:02
They've got nothing else to do. what are they going to do, you know, live on the
00:12:06
street, be homeless, you know, that's probably the people they're going to go
00:12:10
to, >> you know, but for me, you know, I had to had to make changes. But like I say, I
00:12:16
come home, but I was still I was still in the club, you know. So, that was just part of, you know, where I had to go
00:12:23
when I come home. So, yeah. Well, you I [ __ ] I mate, I know [ __ ] about any I I
00:12:32
know nothing about any of this. All I know is like the [ __ ] I see on TV. Um but I'm gathering like it's um if
00:12:38
they've been loyal to you and you see them as a brotherhood, it's hard to turn
00:12:41
your back on them when they've been there for you when no one else was. >> Yeah. And and and you know um
00:12:47
my journey away from the club, you know, I I I leave that behind. I don't talk
00:12:52
about it, you know, I respect that. Um you know, because that was my world. um you know this is my world now as a as a
00:13:00
youth worker. I talk it talk about it in times with my talks and that I don't go
00:13:05
out and and say I'm this this and that and I used to be blah blah blah because
00:13:09
that's not me. I respect that. Um and and stuff like that. So for me, you know, uh it was hard because they did
00:13:19
help me out. They were there for my family. They were there for me. There was a reason why I fought it because it
00:13:24
doesn't matter, >> you know, what you were, who you are. you know, you you put me in a system
00:13:30
where I didn't do anything wrong because some some person that got the power to
00:13:34
just deport any person that want and you look at most of these most of them were
00:13:38
Kiwis and that, but most of them were Pacific Islanders. Most of them were moldies, you know. Most of them were old
00:13:44
and that have that have um changed their lives around, you know, and um and to still get sent back home, you know, not
00:13:52
the options of hey, you know, can we have another shot at it? And like we say, like if you get another crack at
00:13:58
it, take it, you know, don't don't ruin it and say, "Okay, you know, you're
00:14:02
going to get into trouble again." Take that and and make the changes you have
00:14:06
to. But some of us didn't get that opportunity. >> What does the word redemption mean to
00:14:11
you? >> [ __ ] Redemption. >> It's a very romantic word, eh? >> Yeah, it is.
00:14:17
>> It's hard. Redemption is hard, man. >> Um, >> hard to get or hard to be given by other
00:14:24
people? hard hard to to make redemption, you know, to get there because of all the roadblocks, the the stuff we we go
00:14:32
through, you know, um especially as a, you know, a club member. That's that's
00:14:37
all I knew over over in Aussie and um coming home, you know, I'm coming home
00:14:43
to in the club. I'm coming home to uh trauma. I'm coming home to my kids I
00:14:48
haven't seen for a while. um coming home to you know being all over the news for
00:14:54
for why I was deported and stuff like that. So um when you when you come home and you haven't sorted your [ __ ] out,
00:15:02
you know, and my [ __ ] was my trauma. So I went, you know, I'm I'm from Blenham.
00:15:06
So I went back to Blenham and had so much going on my on, you know, mental health. Um, my mom was sick, you know,
00:15:15
two of my kids, you know, wanted to take their life, you know, uh, I wanted to take my life. Um, club was club was me,
00:15:23
but it was different, you know. I was used to my brothers over in Aussie and stuff like that. And most of them lived
00:15:30
away from me, you know, either Oakland or or Christurch and that. And um, especially my close my close, you know,
00:15:36
my close brothers, they were in Oakland. And then I just had to go back to Blenham and and and settle my family and
00:15:42
stuff like that. And um uh yeah, it just kicked in. Mental health got me real bad
00:15:48
because I went back there and >> um blaming myself a little bit, you know, but it was um yeah, it was a
00:15:56
pretty pretty dark time that you know, I went into a real dark space. Um yeah, mentally
00:16:03
>> and I just had to make some make some changes. But redemption. Yeah, redemption is hard. It's not easy, but
00:16:10
it is possible, >> you know. >> Yeah. Cuz you can turn your life around,
00:16:15
but then there's other people around you that um maybe like the idea of redemption,
00:16:19
>> but just won't give you a chance. >> Yeah. And it's hard to hear, you know,
00:16:25
people ask me, man, how did you change your life? How how did you become who I am today? And I just like, man, it was
00:16:32
it's it was a lot of hard work. You know, I when I talk about changes in my life, you know, I left the club 2019.
00:16:40
I've been away for it for a while and I always tell people that, hey, my journey, you know, started, you know,
00:16:47
nearly 7 years ago, but it didn't. It started when I was 8 years old. That's
00:16:51
where my journey, that's where my journey of of where I created where I am now, you know, 8 years old. And um we
00:16:58
can talk about that later about how that journey journey is. And that's where my
00:17:03
my journey of life started, you know. >> Okay. Well, let's get into that. Um, now
00:17:09
the the early years, there's there's um there's a saying or a theory that um
00:17:13
something like 80 or 90% of a kid's brain development is done in the first thousand days or 3 years.
00:17:18
>> What were your what are your memories of your first three years? >> What were they like from what you know,
00:17:24
>> man? Everyone asks me that. Okay. My my um I've got a I've got I got sort of like a
00:17:37
memory loss as a part of my trauma. Uh I don't really remember much of my childhood. You know, it's real hard. Um
00:17:44
because of the abuse that happened with me and stuff like that. And um yeah, I I
00:17:49
I remember moments, but I don't, you know, I don't remember good times, you
00:17:55
know. Uh I remember the the [ __ ] times the yeah the times that I I got hurt and
00:18:03
just going through the system going through school and and stuff like that. So, um I remember bits and every time
00:18:10
people want to talk about my young childhood, I just remember bits of it and and it is real hard to to have those
00:18:17
conversations because um the stuff that I do now uh with young Langati and that now it it I'm that little that little
00:18:26
kid that that I wasn't when I was younger. >> So, um yeah. >> Was there um any of the um essential
00:18:34
ingredients for like a young kid in New Zealand? Like was there was there love? Was there boundaries?
00:18:39
>> Yeah, there was love but there was different you know um you know my trauma
00:18:46
is sexual abuse. Uh my trauma is you know being raped when I was was you know a young kid and that was the age of
00:18:54
eight. Uh I moved to Blenham when I think I was about 7 years old. So, um, we sit there and, um, what's love to us,
00:19:02
you know, when you've been hurt. Um, yeah, you know, and I didn't, um, people
00:19:09
that have been through that sort of trauma. Um, yeah, it's hard for them to do that. It's hard for them to feel
00:19:15
love, you know, when you're seeing, you know, solar parent, um, you know, obviously abuse, alcohol, drugs,
00:19:24
violence, you know, um, going through the system, you know, at a young age, hating
00:19:32
yourself. It's your fault, you know. It's all on me, you know. Um, I was the
00:19:38
problem. I was the black sheep of the family, you know. And um it was hard because I had you know I looked up to my
00:19:46
brother you know he was the sporty one. He was the one going to the good schools. He got to go away to boarding
00:19:53
school real good school. You know my sister she was looked after. But I was going through that through those through
00:19:59
the school just still, you know, the anger, the ADHD, you know, the anger issues, the, you know, getting in
00:20:08
trouble with the cops and and stuff like that while everyone else I thought was,
00:20:13
you know, had a good life. So, um, yeah, that's, you know, love is hard. You
00:20:19
know, we we we we get it from our parents, but, you know, it wasn't all the time, you know. Don't get me wrong,
00:20:26
I love my mom. You know, my mom's not here anymore. >> And um she done a good job. She always
00:20:31
taught us no matter what, thank yous and the pleas and the respect to to her elders and if someone, you know, if you
00:20:38
respect someone, they should give you the respect back. So, mom taught me that, but um you know, it it was hard.
00:20:45
Yeah. >> Was there was there a time where you resented her or were angry that she
00:20:49
didn't do more to protect you? >> Yeah. You know, we go through when we
00:20:52
were in those younger when in my younger life. Yeah, we say, "Man, you're
00:20:56
supposed to protect me." You know, when it was supposed to be a close family
00:20:59
friend that looked after us, you know, it's those moments where, man, you know,
00:21:04
but I knew I knew I knew my mom loved me, you know, um and stuff like that. And when you're when you you know, you
00:21:13
get brought up and and uh don't get me wrong this, I love my dad. My my my dad
00:21:18
I've got a real good relationship with my dad now. And um having him not around, you know, was real hard.
00:21:25
>> Who do I talk to? You know, back in those days, I didn't have a a social
00:21:30
worker, if that's what you call. I didn't have a youth worker or a mentor
00:21:33
or stuff like that where I can just go and say, "Hey, man." You know, what I
00:21:36
got was, "Yeah, you go to counseling, but the counselor you're going to see is
00:21:40
a male." And I was like, "Well, I couldn't see a male because the male was
00:21:43
the one that hurt me, you know." I said, "How the how the how the am I going to
00:21:46
go see a a male counselor when, you know, the perpetrator was one, you know?"
00:21:52
>> Yeah. Mistrust male. >> Mistrust. Yeah. Males. And And every time I got someone was a male, it's just
00:21:57
like, man, how how does that work? You know, >> mate, that's really [ __ ] If you could
00:22:04
go back um and have a word to primary school age, Lee, you're that scared, broken little boy, what would you say to
00:22:12
him? You know what I learned, man, from from a good bro of mine, couple of bros that
00:22:17
I do, Matt Brown's one of them. >> You know, we're looking at we look in
00:22:21
ourselves and we go, we just want to have a look and and get that inner boy out of us, you know. Um,
00:22:30
you know, we all want this beautiful normal life, but um yeah, you know, probably going back is just like just
00:22:38
realizing and thinking to myself, [ __ ] it wasn't my fault. M no, >> it wasn't my fault. You are loved, but
00:22:45
um yeah, it it wasn't your fault. And um I should have got more wraparounds and
00:22:52
more more stuff, but when you when you're coming out of a place, you know, solid parent and the violence and the
00:23:00
the alcohol and all that going through the through the house and no food, you know, stuff like that. It's, you know,
00:23:07
it it is hard to to look at that and and say, "Hey, you know, look at yourself
00:23:12
and and go um yeah, and those that question that asked." So, it is hard. >> Yeah.
00:23:18
>> As as um the great Matt Brown says, the shame is not yours to carry. >> Yeah. You know, and and having the work
00:23:26
I've done in the last 6 years um has helped me. You know, I get professional
00:23:31
help now. I used to be that person that man go see a counselor, you know, they just want to sit there, tick the boxes
00:23:38
off. And I'm actually lucky that I have a good counselor. Um, I've been seeing
00:23:42
her for nearly 6 years now. She was with me while I was in the club >> and I reached out and
00:23:48
had to do all that sort of stuff. So, uh, opening those there and un unraveling and unmasking all those
00:23:54
stuff, you know, and unmasking is getting off, you know, that the drinking, the drugs.
00:24:00
um sitting in the dark alone, >> you know, mental health, depression. Um you know, I do have, you know, we always
00:24:09
talk about depression and mental health. I have serious depression. I have serious PTSD, bit of anxiety and stuff
00:24:15
like that, but I know how to control it. You know, I don't for me now. I tried
00:24:22
medication. I don't need to be on medication for that sort of stuff. Um my medication is see my my youth the men
00:24:30
the people helping my community making the changes and seeing the changes and what they're doing that that fills me up
00:24:36
that fills my cup up you know when it goes empty you know I look back on stuff and and look at the stuff that I that I
00:24:43
have done and made changes so um yeah >> is that a a better high than any drug?
00:24:49
Yeah. You know, you know, it's there forever, you know. We we we we use the alcohol and the drugs
00:24:57
to mask everything to take take everything away, take the pain away, you know, and um it it doesn't work, you
00:25:04
know? We we get off the drugs and the drinking and we're just back into that
00:25:08
same cycle. E wake up again, same the same shit's going to happen again. >> Yeah. you know, so um you've got to
00:25:15
really look inside yourself and and work hard on it, you know, and and that's
00:25:20
what I've done. And um you know and when I sit there and I I look where I am
00:25:27
today, all it was, man, is looking in the mirror and saying to myself that um that I I love myself, that I am, you
00:25:35
know, I have a purpose, you know, and and for me, part of the journey I I've
00:25:41
seen now is I found my purpose. I always thought I was going to follow go down that track of, you know, being brought
00:25:47
up in in in those in that world of, you know, drugs, alcohol, violence, and stuff like that that, okay, we're going
00:25:53
to go down the the the road of joining a a gang or a motorcycle club. I just found the right people over in Australia
00:26:01
that I really got close to and found that brotherhood and stuff like that and that's where I went. Um, and I always
00:26:09
thought I was going to be that, but coming home and unraveling and un and unmasking all that stuff and traumas and
00:26:17
and um stuff that I was going through that actually there is another purpose for me,
00:26:23
>> you know. >> Did you ever have dreams as a little boy? Like what did you want to be when
00:26:26
you grew up? >> If I just I'm just curious because um >> again I know I know [ __ ] I know nothing
00:26:35
about anything. But what I do know were your dreams when you're raised in a normal environment, a normal healthy
00:26:40
>> people, people got to laugh at this cuz I went to school, you know, a couple of
00:26:45
things I did remember is I went to school and I think it might have been 9 10 >> and I don't know I watched I think it
00:26:54
was Fresh Prince of Bellia and I made Butler the butler. I don't know what it
00:26:58
was. was like, "Father, that fell's a cool dude, man. Far, you know, bridge
00:27:03
mansion, you know, hey, look, you know, >> that's where the money's at." E, you
00:27:10
know, and I was just like, "Oh, a but like that sounds pretty cool." And I
00:27:15
don't talk about that much. I like had I had it for a while, bro. Like, oh yeah,
00:27:21
that's where the money's at. And then, yeah, got over that phase. And um you
00:27:26
know the the truth band and people were thing is um you know the options down the track was was to be a police
00:27:33
officer. >> You know it was but until you know I was a certain age man 12 13 when my dad got
00:27:40
in trouble with them and they called him the n-word and stuff like that and I just looked at police as you know racist
00:27:48
people and um yeah and then I just thought okay well I'm not going to ever be a policeman. So,
00:27:54
>> um, yeah, I ended up being a, um, ended up being a, uh, car really. So, that was
00:28:01
my my career and where I was. >> What was your relationship like with drugs and alcohol?
00:28:07
>> Like when when did it begin? I'm just curious cuz it seems like um, from what
00:28:11
I know about you, and we'll get through all of this, but it seems like you had
00:28:13
full-time jobs and hard manual labor through through most of your life. um you can't um you can't have a a you know
00:28:21
a massive massive you know uh drug or alcohol habit and maintain a job like that.
00:28:26
>> Yeah. I um you know when I'm out there talking about my talk so I'm opening up
00:28:32
more a bit about the alcohol uh the drugs um you know when we have conversations with our kids
00:28:40
and and what they're doing and stuff like that I'll always sit in that space
00:28:44
where everything I talk about uh and I hear from my that I've got to be true to
00:28:49
myself >> you know because they asked the questions and um alcohol man was massive
00:28:56
like alcohol was just that was me. Um drinking all the time. Um CO was real bad. CO was like I got real deep into
00:29:04
alcohol. Um and drugs as well, you know. Um we can sit here and people look at you go, "Oh, you're a gang member and um
00:29:14
you know that's all you fellows do and and this and that." Everything that I
00:29:18
done was me. You know, no one told me to do this, this, and that. And I can hardly put my my heart on there that
00:29:26
everything I done was for me. It wasn't for anyone else, you know, and the drug
00:29:31
the drug thing, you know, um my my drug of choice was cocaine, you know, and um it's probably the first time today that
00:29:40
I've actually open about my habit and my habit was real bad, you know. Um I've
00:29:46
been away that lifestyle for for 7 years now. Um, and I don't do any more drugs
00:29:52
or anything like, but it was a masking thing for me. You know, you you wouldn't
00:29:57
know you wouldn't know that I was on that, you know. I I hit it quite well. Um,
00:30:04
but it was a a big a big issue for me. Uh, and mixing that with with with the alcohol as well. So,
00:30:13
>> um, yeah, that was the the the drug choice for me. And um you know it was it
00:30:20
was hard to to clean myself up but I I've I've been clean for so long and it
00:30:26
it's just doesn't come onto my mind about actually you know um taking anymore and you know putting yourself
00:30:33
back into situations as well is when you know that hey you know um if you're
00:30:38
around that sort of thing you you know that you can you can get out of that stuff you know not being around it. So
00:30:45
yeah, >> it's an expensive drug. There's probably a lot of um you very wellto-d do people
00:30:50
listening to this podcast or watching it right now that have a bag in their wallet or maybe went to Electric Avenue
00:30:55
last weekend with some of the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Don't forget this was this is this is um
00:31:01
7 years ago, you know. >> Um and I made the choice when I left when I left and I wanted to make changes
00:31:08
in my life. I had to make the changes, you know, drinking, you know, my drinking, you know, because a lot of
00:31:16
people know who I am in town and and and when I go out, I drink to socialize now.
00:31:22
I don't drink to go out there and get wasted and look like a fool and, you know, and and fool around everywhere
00:31:29
because, you know, that's not me anymore, you know. So, and when I'm out,
00:31:34
the conversations I have is usually about men's mental health. um you know coming down to the the boxing gym uh and
00:31:43
stuff like that all my youth and doing stuff in the community. So I don't you
00:31:47
know have to be out there now and and just getting that wasted that I can't remember the next day. So I'm not here
00:31:53
to tell people that hey I'm going to stop drinking and I'm going to think
00:31:57
I'll socialize now and I can control it. >> So um yeah. >> Well it seems like you've created a life
00:32:03
that you actually enjoy living in rather than a life that you want to escape from.
00:32:07
>> Yeah. Yeah, I was escaping life for a while, you know. And um >> Is that what is that what cocaine and
00:32:12
alcohol gave you? >> And just m Yeah, escape. Masking takes it takes everything away, you know. It's
00:32:19
just like this this place we're in, man. It's just like, man, we don't care, you
00:32:23
know? Life's cool. Life's easy. But when it starts wearing off, >> hey, we're back again.
00:32:31
>> Hey, the thoughts are coming, you know, because we're we're hiding it. We're
00:32:35
masking it, you know. And um Never outrun yourself either. >> No. >> Saying wherever you go, there you are.
00:32:41
>> Yeah. You know, so um Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, hey, well, thanks for being open
00:32:47
about that stuff. >> Yeah. Um so, 2005 you moved to Australia. >> Yep.
00:32:52
>> What was it that pulled you there? >> Family. I was going to go to Brisbane. I
00:32:56
thought ah go to Brisbane and then people messaging me from Blenham and like man I want to move away from
00:33:02
Blenham not to be around Blenham, you know? I just want a new start. Hey, like all my mates live there. It's like you
00:33:09
come out to Brisbane. It's like a bro, but you lived in Blenham and yeah, so I
00:33:13
thought moving to Perth, you know, would be the place to go to and you know, went
00:33:18
there quietly and yeah, took me ages to meet some boys from Blenham and then Nick minute, you know, all these
00:33:23
followers are like, "Hey bro, how you go? Who you Perth now?" This and that.
00:33:26
So, and I think it was more uh work as well. Like over here, I was just finished my apprenticeship for Kala. I
00:33:35
done security work down in Christ Church which wasn't good money working two jobs
00:33:39
had young kids to my wife and um just had to you know 20 bucks at the end of the week it's not going to cut it so we
00:33:46
just thought hey let's go to Aussie give the mines a go over there had a look at
00:33:51
the mines took me ages couldn't even get in there so I thought I'll give Carpang
00:33:55
a go and just started contracting and made some pretty good good money you know with carpang over there so
00:34:02
>> the the the um the facial tattoos Did you have them prior to moving to Aussie
00:34:06
or you got them over there? >> I got them over there. Yeah. Got miss my gear.
00:34:09
>> So, um, it was over in Australia that you connected with the Rebels Motorcycle
00:34:13
Club. What? So, so you're working full time as a carpet layer. You got a young
00:34:17
family. Why? Why was that not enough? Why did you need something else? >> I don't know. just met certain people,
00:34:23
you know, when you when you're brought up in the life that some of us have, you
00:34:27
know, you find a connection, you know, why are we moving to we moving into in that direction? You know, and I just
00:34:33
seen this brotherhood. Um met a couple of fellows. Um you know, the first fellow I met, he had he had face tatto.
00:34:48
And that wasn't so I moved there 2005. That was until 2010 2011, >> you know. So when I when I met these
00:34:56
boys Yeah. >> What did your partner say? >> Uh, was she? >> Nah, she wasn't, man. She she she, you
00:35:06
know, I um wasn't like I was living two separate lives, but >> yeah, it was my choice, you know. Um, I
00:35:16
made that choice, you know. So, and my my kids, you know, to my wife were were young. So,
00:35:24
>> um yeah, it was a choice that I made. So, >> yeah, I just seen, you know, I just seen
00:35:30
brotherhood. I seen I can connect to these these followers and and stuff like that. So, yeah, I just done it. I just
00:35:38
Yeah. went there, joined up, and yeah, >> from from what I can gather from
00:35:45
listening to previous podcasts you've been on, um you don't really like um
00:35:49
talking about this part of your life too much, but I mean, we can be as open or a
00:35:53
shut about it as you want, but um I I just feel incredibly naive about this. Like, as I said earlier, all I know is
00:35:59
like what I see on what I'm fed on mainstream media and on the news, but are are you guys out there just like
00:36:05
selling drugs to kids and ripping people off? Are you all bad? >> No, we're not all bad. You know,
00:36:11
businessmen, you know, people are doing, you know, what they what they are doing
00:36:16
and surviving, you know, doing things for their family. You know, we always have these conversations about gang
00:36:23
members, this and that. They're all bad people. But, okay, what happens when the
00:36:28
government goes bad? What happens when a police officer goes bad? What happens when our teachers hurt our kids? Are
00:36:34
they all bad people? No, they're not. You know, the media looks at it too. Like I notice in Australia when, you
00:36:43
know, things are going all right over there, but once [ __ ] happens bad with the government or the news media or
00:36:49
something over there, who do they who do they, you know, mask mask all their stories up with? Oh, yeah. Gang members,
00:36:56
you know, >> the they're doing this, the bikes are doing this, this, and that to take the
00:37:00
focus away from what they're doing, you know. So, I'm not going to sit here and
00:37:04
say that every single gang member is good because that's just [ __ ] you because, you know, not all gang members
00:37:11
are, you know, but what I do know is that there are a lot of them making changes, you know. There are a lot of
00:37:17
them doing doing good, you know. So, we can't sit there and just say that because don't forget like we say these
00:37:25
people in the the suits and the the ties and that that are doing bad stuff, you know. So, we can't just, you know, focus
00:37:33
on one one group, you know. So, yeah. >> So, um illegal or antiso social behavior, it's not like applauded or
00:37:42
encouraged in that environment. >> No. Yeah. No. You know, >> so if one if one of the brothers like
00:37:46
messes up, like the rest of you, >> there's, you know, we can sit here and
00:37:50
talk about talk about club life all day long and, you know, there's a there's a
00:37:56
law for for certain people and there's a law for for other people, you know, and
00:38:01
I'm not going to go into that because there's all there's all different they
00:38:04
have their own different different rules and different laws and what they do, you
00:38:08
know, and like I say, you know, for me, the club looked after me, you know, They
00:38:14
looked after my family. You know, this was a decision that I had to make. A decision to sit there and say, you know,
00:38:22
I give 100%. I couldn't give 100% to them because my mental health, the dark
00:38:26
the the the darkness that I was in, my mental health, my mom, my kids, I had to put everything first. I had to put me
00:38:35
first, you know, this time. And I had to do it. And I had to take that away so I
00:38:41
can, you know, focus on me and my family and get get me better cuz I was in a real bad place
00:38:46
>> when when you're when people message you and you're not answering your phone and
00:38:51
and and it's for brothers that are caring for you, you know, I'm I was real
00:38:55
good at doing that, like answering the brothers and that. But I was in this dark place, man. I was in this place
00:38:59
where, man, I can't I can't deal with life at the moment. I can't be the
00:39:04
brother that I that I used to be and give the brothers 100%. You know, and that's what I I've always believed in.
00:39:12
You you do 100%. You know, and I'm always thankful for those brothers that that were there for me and some of them
00:39:21
are still here for me to to this day, you know, that that message me and say, "Hey, bro. we we like what you're doing
00:39:26
for our for our youth and our you know and and made some big changes you know and I can sit here and say I know all
00:39:33
different walks of life >> you know I don't sit there and and and talk you know what other people do and
00:39:39
stuff like that you know I talk about change and I talk about you know if you want to be in in you want to be in a
00:39:47
gang you don't want to be in a gang that's cool I'm not there to tell you
00:39:50
you know it's it's it's a bad thing don't go down that don't go down that
00:39:54
track because I know people are making some massive changes, you know, that's
00:39:59
not me anymore, >> you know. My my focus is on if people want to make changes. Yeah, we can make
00:40:04
changes, we can make positive changes, >> you know, and still still do what you're
00:40:10
doing, but do positive stuff, you know, >> you know, and and looking after our
00:40:14
family and our kids. >> Had you gone to Australia and never joined the rebels, none of this would
00:40:23
have happened. the 501 stuff, the incarceration. With that in mind, do you regret joining?
00:40:28
>> No, I don't. >> No, I don't. You know, >> sometimes I blame myself for it. Yeah, I
00:40:34
got myself into it. >> But I look at it and go, man, I didn't do anything wrong. What did I do wrong?
00:40:41
I associated with some brothers, you know. I didn't do a crime. I didn't do
00:40:48
jail, you know. I understand. Yeah. and and and some of the boys that I was locked up with, they done their time.
00:40:55
>> They done their time. You know, the club changed them. You know, I had one
00:40:59
brother, he was he before he was in the club, he was a drug addict, you know, it
00:41:04
cleaned them right up. He's back here in New Zealand doing some good stuff, >> you know. Um
00:41:12
when we sit there and and people ask me, you know, did I regret it? And I don't
00:41:16
because that was part of my journey of where I was going especially with the traumas and and the people that I was
00:41:21
connected to you know but when >> would you say like it gave you more than
00:41:26
it took away ultimately? >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know coming home and sorting out my own stuff man you know um
00:41:37
realizing that okay that is part of my journey. That's why I went down that track because I didn't I didn't have the
00:41:45
life that every other person had, the good life that people had. You know, >> I I had um do you remember Brad Thorne,
00:41:53
you know, all black hard man, Bronco star, >> um very religious man. I had him on the
00:41:58
podcast sitting in the same chair as you actually a couple of weeks ago and he talked about finding God and finding his
00:42:03
partner and the phrase he used was he had to get his house in order. >> Yep. And I really like that. And I think
00:42:08
um like I mean there's there's going to be a lot of people listening to this or
00:42:12
watching this that'll be very quick to judge. Um but we've all got rooms in our
00:42:15
own internal houses that we need to get in order. Nobody's perfect, right? >> No one's perfect. You know, honestly,
00:42:20
man, if you if you sit there and I tell a lot of our men that I >> I talk to that um there's no there's no
00:42:28
perfect family, >> you know. There's no person that can sit there and go, "Oh, yeah. I've got the
00:42:32
perfect family." because there is something in there that you know that you have done and a lot of people ask me
00:42:38
the question too you know cuz a lot of there's a few of our 501 brothers and
00:42:42
and and the the change makers you know have turned to the Lord you know um that's their thing and and a lot of the
00:42:51
brothers I hang around they have gone that way but for me you know I didn't need to go down that way you know I made
00:42:56
the I made the changes for me and who I am you know >> whatever helps e >> yeah whatever helps you if it brings you
00:43:03
peace. Yeah. I've noticed you've got the um the cross tattoo. >> Yeah, that's my mom. That's for my mom.
00:43:07
Yeah, that's for my mom. You know, my mom passed away 5 years ago. She um you
00:43:12
know, I had a good relationship with my mom. I wish she was still here to actually see you know uh where I am
00:43:19
today, what I've created, you know, especially the boxing gym, man. That's a
00:43:24
a a massive thing for me and that's that saved my life, >> you know. >> Yeah. This is such a cool part of your
00:43:31
story. We we haven't even got to I'm just working through some stuff and
00:43:34
we're going to get to the good stuff. It's like we're eating the vegetables,
00:43:36
then we'll get to the steak and the dessert. >> Um yeah. Is it um >> Yeah. How is it reflecting on this
00:43:43
stuff? Like there's there's some crunchy stuff and we've still got some crunchy
00:43:46
stuff to get to. Is it unpleasant to revisit >> like in a long form chat like this?
00:43:51
>> No, it's not. It's good. It helps me. >> Yeah. >> You know, it helps me where I am today.
00:43:57
you know, it shows me on my journey where I'm at that, you know, we make mistakes, we do [ __ ] things, you know,
00:44:05
and and and my mate, you know, that that that, you know, I'm up here with um
00:44:10
being a youth worker, um you know, Maxine, she said to me, and we always have a conversation about we do [ __ ]
00:44:17
things, but we're not [ __ ] people. We're not we're not [ __ ] humans, you know, and
00:44:21
when people do make mistakes and and do those little fuckups, you know, we're
00:44:26
not [ __ ] people, you know. >> So, we got to really look at that and go, actually, you know, how do we fix
00:44:32
it? How do we change it? You know, so and I think that brings a lot of our people down too, thinking that we've
00:44:38
done something wrong. Hey, we look at going, "Man, I must been a [ __ ] person,"
00:44:43
you know, but we weren't [ __ ] people. We were just going through stuff, >> you know. you also you you had a really
00:44:49
[ __ ] start in life. You got to cut yourself some slack. >> Yeah. And and that's that's what I'm
00:44:54
doing now, you know. And it wasn't for my good mate um Sam. So if you don't
00:44:59
know Sam, he's from Road to Healing, Art Roa. He's walked the country. I met him
00:45:06
two 3 years ago. Watched his podcast, watched him live. Um he's, you know, I've been I've I've biked to Nelson with
00:45:13
him. I've walked from I've done some walking with him and the bike ride, man.
00:45:19
Like honestly, man, I just I met him and I said, "Hey, bro. I really want to jump
00:45:23
on this bike ride with you." Uh we just started chatting. I met him in real life
00:45:28
and we hang out for 4 days and he was like super ADHD triple thousand. Um he's
00:45:36
he is the voice of our sexual violence, our our people that are being sex sexually abused and stuff like that.
00:45:45
Man, when you meet that fellow, man, I met him come off come off the the the plane, picked him up, man. And he was
00:45:52
just like ah like you know he's an ex addict and stuff like that. I'm like man
00:45:55
this guy bro you still on it or what? Are you still big bro? goes no was out there and I took him out and
00:46:03
everyone was supposed to be a rider, you know, he's just like but his just his w
00:46:08
his his passion and man honestly the since I was 8 years old you know to when I was 30 now what was it 40 42 you
00:46:21
know when I actually opened up more about my abuse it was him >> it was him I had to think and say
00:46:27
>> hey bro thank you. I'm a survivor now. I'm not that victim. I'm not that young
00:46:32
boy that was a victim. And because of you, bro, I'm a survivor now. And we biked up the Nelson ripped up the funas,
00:46:40
bro. And honestly, we had we had um we had the um electric bikes. And honestly, man, like went up there, it was raining.
00:46:51
I was about to give up. He was just going, "Come on, bro. Come on. We're
00:46:56
nearly there. We're nearly up the top. We're nearly around the corner. I'm
00:46:58
like, "Bro, you never bike these mountains before. You don't know where
00:47:01
the corner is. I know where the top of the hill is." >> And he's just going, "Bro, we're the
00:47:05
elite. No one else is going to do this. No one else is going to push you, bro. You know, you're a survivor, bro. You're
00:47:10
going to get to the top of the hill, and we're going to make it, bro, because no
00:47:14
one else is going to do this except us, you know." And we just he just he just
00:47:19
bypassed me. He was behind me. He biked past me and here he is ADHD at the gate and he's vaping blowing all his vape
00:47:28
making motorbike sounds and he goes, "Brother, I got you. I got you or it's
00:47:32
just around the corner." Said, "Bro, like I said, you don't know where the
00:47:35
corner is." And I knew where the corner was, but I got up there. E. And he gave
00:47:40
me this massive hug, bro. And I said, "You done it, bro. You nearly gave up,
00:47:45
but you you you you went through it. And I just want to tell you, brother, that you know, you come on this ride. I've
00:47:51
known you for 4 days and now you're just a survivor, bro. You're a survivor of
00:47:55
sexual abuse. And I'll never, you know, um I'm just grateful that he's
00:48:01
come into my life, you know, that he's he is a voice for our people and stuff
00:48:06
like that. So, >> yeah. >> Well, as you are. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, November 2015, you you've been
00:48:14
in Australia at 10 years by this point. Y >> um working as a carpet layer, raising
00:48:18
your family, but in your weekends, um this extra extracurricular activity with the Rebels Motorcycle Club.
00:48:25
>> I'm guessing you you you did some illegal [ __ ] and you just didn't get
00:48:28
caught, some cocaine, you had some gear perhaps. >> No, no, I'm just cocaine. I'm I'm I'm
00:48:36
strictly that and that's it, you know? >> Right. But but I'm and I'm not
00:48:39
minimizing that cuz it's an illegal thing, but there's like a lot of As I
00:48:42
said, there's a lot of people at Electric Avenue last weekend. Yeah. doing doing cocaine or ketamine or
00:48:47
whatever. So, >> I mean, it's um that's I feel that's more of a health issue than a a crime
00:48:52
issue as long as you're not dealing. >> Yeah. And and the thing is that
00:48:56
>> when you like I say, when you got someone that's sitting up there that's
00:49:01
been a bully that's had a background of corruption and all of a sudden all these
00:49:06
Kiwis get kicked out of Australia and he's nowhere to be seen now. It's like,
00:49:11
man, when does this when does this when does this stop? you know when does this when does this you know when do the
00:49:17
changes you know happen you know and I am seeing changes you know I'm seeing
00:49:23
changes over there that okay there are people getting their visas back there are people getting a second chance and
00:49:29
opportunity >> and you know I talked a couple of 501's on on on online and stuff like that cuz
00:49:35
allow phones and that in there now so you you can have conversations and detentions now we didn't we weren't
00:49:40
allowed them back then you know >> and you sit there and and you know they're live streaming and and you're
00:49:45
seeing the way they're getting treated and stuff like that and how much they've
00:49:50
got to go through to get their visas back. You know, you know, I've seen a couple of couple
00:49:56
of my mates get their visas back and I'm I'm happy for them, you know, but
00:50:01
why why do they get it back and then another person doesn't, you know? Where's the
00:50:07
>> where's the consistency? That's that's what we're looking for. Consistency, you
00:50:11
know? Um, you know, back then Christmas Island, man, Christmas Island was, man, I've seen the the G's come back, the
00:50:18
OG's, you know, coming back that have done some massive lags and coming back
00:50:23
from Christmas Island, man. Broken >> the way they got treated, you know, and
00:50:28
um I I actually caught off the boys that were in the first ride over there and couple of my good mates now. And that's
00:50:34
when I got locked up just after they done the ride over in Christmas Island. And I met those boys and there was
00:50:40
reasons why they done it because the way they got treated over there. You know, >> you put out we sit there, you know,
00:50:47
Christmas Island wasn't built for Kiwis. It was built for refugees, >> you know. And as bad as it sounds, the
00:50:54
refugees were in mainstream, you know, like Sydney, Perth, Yonga Hill, and all that, those detention centers when our
00:51:01
Kiwis were shanghai over to Christmas Island, treated bad, >> real bad. You know, it wasn't built for
00:51:09
us. You know, once again, you're trying to break you break, you know, families
00:51:16
because the only thing they had was visits. You know, >> you have people over in Brisbane that
00:51:19
are living over, you know, Shanghai to Perth, taking taking away what was most they wanted was just to see their
00:51:25
families. You know, some have already done jail time and then they're getting
00:51:28
punished again, you know, sitting there trying to fight for their fight for their rights.
00:51:33
>> Yeah. It seems unnecessarily cruel. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, November 2, 2015, 7:00 a.m.
00:51:39
>> 7 a.m. >> Take us take us through that morning. >> Ah. Um, >> so you must have got up early. You're on
00:51:44
your way to work. >> Yeah. On my way. I usually go to work around 7:00. you know, traffic and me I
00:51:48
was just cruising along like just cruising got about 500, you know, I'm pretty nosy, you know, but I just
00:51:55
thought, hey, just in long day like, nah, cool, man. I'm not going to, you know, I got all these side streets and
00:52:00
didn't even bother looking down them all being thing. So, I just drove off and
00:52:05
then yeah, like I said, I was talking to um my my friend's Mrs. to make sure she
00:52:10
was right. There was no sound, no nothing. And I just looked in the rearview mirror. I just seen lights,
00:52:15
man. And they just come out of nowhere. >> How many? >> I reckon about
00:52:20
30 maybe. Um there was gang crime, immigration, the feds, normal police. Um you know, I got out of the car and they
00:52:32
sort of said, "Stay in the car." Said, "Well, no, not really because I know why
00:52:36
he's here." And um they couldn't say anything until immigration come over and
00:52:41
hand me the paper. So they hand me the paper and said, "Are you lead to PU?"
00:52:44
And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "I will cancel your revenge." I'm like, "Hey."
00:52:47
So they handcuffed me there. They took actually took me back home. So one of the cops drove my car home. And it was
00:52:53
that moment, man, when I I just had to, you know, knock on the door. Family was asleep and just tell my wife that, yeah,
00:53:02
they've cancelled my visa. And she knew what was up because the whole, you know,
00:53:06
you could see it on the cameras and all at my house. So it's just covered with
00:53:09
the police. And u my kids were still asleep, you know. Um them being asleep, you know. Uh yeah. And I just sort of
00:53:18
had to say, "Hey, just tell them I'm at work." And um >> you're at work for 2 years.
00:53:24
>> For work for 2 years, working away. Yeah. You know, >> how is how is your wife? Was she s was
00:53:29
she pissed with you or the police? >> She was she was just shocked, I think.
00:53:32
Shocked. You know, and I told her to ring certain people just to tell them, you know. Um Yeah. You know what was the
00:53:41
killer the killer thing for me man was it was peak hour in Perth the traffic was [ __ ] and they put me in a cop car
00:53:49
like gang crime and like they took me straight to prison Kazarina like Kazarina's down south like it's for a
00:53:55
drive from where I am it's probably hour and a half in the traffic so I had to
00:53:59
sit in the sitting there with these four gang crime followers for an hour and a half you know and it was real hard
00:54:06
because they didn't even know what was going on you know I was trying to ask
00:54:10
him the questions this and that and I was like man you know so nearly hour and a half two hours and you know I thought
00:54:16
I was going to detention center and they said no you're off to Kazarina I said
00:54:19
who the [ __ ] goes to Kazarina with no criminal record they they didn't know
00:54:22
what was going on >> is this the first prison experience in your life >> yeah I'm usually visiting the boys yeah
00:54:28
you know I'm usually visiting the boys and you know always say wonder what's
00:54:32
like on the other side of the thing you know always visit them and and stuff like that so I got to see see the other
00:54:38
side of it and and I We didn't get put in there normally like you know I had to
00:54:42
go through the system. They chucked me in chuck me in in this yard or chuck me in this um block where you know I was
00:54:51
locked up for nearly 24 hours you know no like no nothing and then didn't know
00:54:56
what was going on. It was until the next day when the other boys come in. So he knew the you know he knew what was going
00:55:02
on and he said we can get get our phone calls and stuff like that and went out and then got got a bit of freedom. But
00:55:09
the freedom was you're in this long [ __ ] cage walking up and down, you know, locked up in this cage, you know,
00:55:16
like figuring what to go and the jud uh the >> the uh guards didn't know what to do
00:55:20
with us because we weren't in there for a sentence. were there getting deported,
00:55:25
>> you know. So, we had to follow the system. We had to, you know, be in the
00:55:30
system and and stuff like that. So, we finally got moved into um to mainstream with the other boys and a couple of boys
00:55:38
already been locked up there and even they were just like, man, everyone was just like, wow, what are you guys doing
00:55:44
here? Why why are you here? How come he's under the detention center? We didn't have the answers, you know. So, I
00:55:50
was there for 6 months. So I was only there for 6 months, man. So >> yeah.
00:55:55
>> Wait, you say only 6 months? That's half a year, bro. >> Yeah.
00:55:58
>> If if if that was me, I'd be Yeah. How were you compliant or were you angry and
00:56:02
resistant? >> No, I just just trying to I was And that's the thing. We weren't in there to
00:56:08
to play up. You know, we're there to get, you know, our visas back and let people know that, man, you're chucking
00:56:14
people in prison for what? For getting deported. Why? Why can't we go to the
00:56:18
detention center like everyone else? Well, why can't we fight it outside like
00:56:21
everyone else? You know, two of us in here have criminal records, you know. All the other boys have done their time,
00:56:27
you know, but we've known boys that have been out there with with um from their
00:56:31
lawyers, they can fight it out out there and stuff like that. And I ended up at Kazarina for 3 months and then they
00:56:37
shanged me down to Albany prison and they got me a day before my wife's birthday. So, my kids were coming in
00:56:45
just another way to break us, you know. So, I got >> You think it was intentional the time? I
00:56:49
think I think it was 6:00 in the morning they you know shang eyed me down to Albany prison and that was 6 hours out
00:56:55
of Perth. So I spent my last 3 months there done that and then they grabbed me again and said oh are you going to
00:57:01
detention center now? And they keep me in Perth detention center. Perth detention center. You only allowed 30 30
00:57:06
people there. I think 25 people there. It was just for um transferring. >> Yeah.
00:57:13
Were you treated differently to other inmates because of the fact you're not
00:57:17
actually there for a >> No, we had we had to we just followed the system, you know, but a lot of the
00:57:22
other >> No, no special treatment. >> No, no special treatment. No, no special
00:57:25
treatment. We're we're all on high risk as well. Like some of the high levels
00:57:29
and I'm like >> high risk as yourself or n just for the inmates, you know? Like how can we be
00:57:35
high risk when we're in here for nothing? We're in here for your gang connections, you know. And it and the
00:57:41
movements that we had to go through were, you know, it was just the unreal, you know.
00:57:49
>> How do you hang on to hope? >> Oh, there was a there was a reason why
00:57:57
we done it. You know, there was we were showing people that, you know, even though we're in a club, you know, people
00:58:04
have done their time, but it had changed them. But when you got a person like me
00:58:11
that's in there sitting in there because of a wearing a patch and hanging off the
00:58:17
brothers being locked up for nothing, you know, getting taken away from his family and
00:58:23
getting locked up. A lot of people say, "Yeah, you're a gang member, bad luck,
00:58:28
piss off sort of thing." But I had to had to fight for that, you know. I had
00:58:33
to go I wanted to go all the way. I didn't want to give up and say, "Okay,
00:58:37
fuck." You know, because I knew that was an opportunity for us to open up some
00:58:40
doors for other people. And it did open up doors. But then because the government can do what they want and I I
00:58:48
went all the way went to the first appearance judges were saying, "No, we'll put it off." My lawyers, they were
00:58:56
doing the same thing. We said, "We don't know what to do." So only place we go to
00:58:59
was the high court. We had to fight the constitution of the law and we won it. We won a court case
00:59:07
that tells him that you're actually holding us, you know, wrongful and holding us in in prison. You know, when
00:59:15
I think it was six to one, so six high court judges deemed unconstitutional. Okay. So that means that okay, that law
00:59:23
that you should let us go. But who had the power? Immigration minister. They already
00:59:29
planned it before we even got out. They, you know, I won the court case. So I got
00:59:33
out, you know, and then straight away I got flipped over again. That's how it
00:59:38
worked. I was like, now you got this this immigration immigration minister has got more power than
00:59:45
>> the high court judges. How does that work? >> How how do you stay composed? So you win
00:59:49
the court case and then you get um you get scooped up again. Um yeah, how do you how do you not snap? Uh, I was more
00:59:57
I was real excited because I knew it was a massive win for us, you know, and then
01:00:02
I knew and I can remember this day because I knew there was another court case going on that there was another
01:00:07
court case going on with uh Manis Island and the day before they just won a big massive court case um over the
01:00:16
Australian government. And I thought, "Oh, it's a good win." And then the next
01:00:19
day, we got a big win. And I'm and I'm thinking, "Oh, yeah. Okay, now the
01:00:23
Australian government, I think they're pretty pissed at us now because they've
01:00:26
lost two big court cases." >> And um I was real excited, but it was different because
01:00:35
every time I see someone get their visa back, say goodbye to the boys, you know,
01:00:40
have a wash, have a feed, you know, usually about half an hour to an hour the boys get out. I jumped in the
01:00:46
shower. Next minute I got the guards knocking on the door. Well, you got to get out of the shower. You got to go get
01:00:50
your bags. Go sign out. I'm like, hey. I'm just like, this is different. And
01:00:55
then a guy come say, "Come grab your gear. All your gear's ready to go. Let's
01:00:59
grab your gear. Go." And I and I knew something, man. This this is different.
01:01:04
And got there, got all my gear, went out the gate, got out the doors, had all my gear, got out the doors, and
01:01:12
then my wife just picked me up. And justice just as jump in the car, two immigration officers come in and go,
01:01:18
"Hey, can we talk to you for a second?" I was like, "We" He goes, "Oh, can we go
01:01:22
inside and talk?" And I said, "What for?" He goes, "Oh, we just need to talk
01:01:26
to you inside." I said, "You know, I know why. I know. I know what's
01:01:30
happening." So I just like, "No." And I go and I said, "Do I have to go in
01:01:33
there?" He goes, "No, you can do whatever." I said, "Okay." So what I did
01:01:37
is I chose to go home. >> So I went home and I I jumped in the car, man. And [ __ ] my buzz just went
01:01:43
down because I knew what happened. What they were trying to do is get me inside,
01:01:47
cancel my visa, and then I don't get to go home. >> So I ran my lawyer and I said to my
01:01:52
lawyer, I said, "Hey, they've asked me all these question. What's going on?
01:01:56
Have they I asked the question, did they cancel my visa?" He didn't know. So he I
01:02:01
think he rang up someone and he goes, "Man, they've just turned your they just
01:02:05
cancelled your visa again." I said, "What? In [ __ ] 40 minutes?" And he
01:02:09
goes, "Yeah, they've just thing." And I said, "What do I do?" And he's like, "I
01:02:12
don't know." I said, "This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go home. I'm
01:02:16
going to go see my kids cuz I haven't seen him for ages and I'm going to just
01:02:22
chill out with him." He goes, "Yeah, you can do what you want to do." Okay,
01:02:25
that's up to you. I said, "Well, I'm not going back there." And I knew what was
01:02:28
going to happen. >> So then I end up going home. was at a friend's place and um
01:02:36
yeah um I was there and my kids come home my kids come home happy cry and you know when um I had boys
01:02:47
messaging me and going hey bro good on you we're going to come around have some
01:02:50
beers and I just like nah bro I just had to tell them I said [ __ ] they canceled
01:02:54
my visa again and I was that happy to see my kids and and and just tell them that you
01:03:04
I wanted to tell them that things were all right. I said we won, you know, that it was hard. I had to tell them. I had
01:03:10
to tell them that um yeah, they cancelled my visa again. >> And just that emotion just Yeah. I don't
01:03:17
know if it was happy cries for them or or or what, but for me it was it was hard for me
01:03:23
>> because I knew I knew what's going to happen. >> Yeah. Probably like happy tears,
01:03:29
frustrated tears. >> It was more Yeah, >> it was it was hard cuz I knew I just
01:03:36
wanted to see my kids >> and just to see them happy but in that time but after that that that emotion I
01:03:44
just had to say [ __ ] my visas have been cancelled. Um and I don't know what to do e I just
01:03:50
sat there man and just said [ __ ] what do I do you know? So I stayed hidden not
01:03:55
hidden but at my friends our friends place for for a while and then I got into TV1. I I got onto the news and I
01:04:02
had to talk to them cuz they sort of heard about what was going on and um I just had to, you know, make a little bit
01:04:10
of noise and just let them know what was going on. And um yeah, but I had to make
01:04:15
a decision that I'm not going to hide and I think it was about 10:00 at night.
01:04:19
Decide to go home, >> sit there. Uh I knew what was going to happen and there was a couple of cars
01:04:26
floating around. Didn't get much sleep. woke up real early real early and then um yeah and
01:04:34
then I just sit there man and I knew they're coming cuz there was car went outside and there was cars sitting up on
01:04:39
my road I said okay and then next minute I think it was about 8:00 in the morning
01:04:44
they come around the corner could see them running around see them all on my cameras shielded up gunned up oh gunned
01:04:51
up and um I used come to the door and they just just doing their normal [ __ ] they gang crime do and just coming in
01:04:59
over the top full effect with their guns pointing at me. My kids were awake at that time. My kids were just man they
01:05:05
threw me on the ground pointing guns at me. One of my daughters Yeah. jumped over and um said she said my dad's not a
01:05:12
bad person. Yeah. And she was only young, you know. It's just that and and the cheekiest thing,
01:05:25
man, is like, man, honestly, bro, I was I don't write in immigration. I didn't
01:05:29
play up. I didn't be a [ __ ] cuz I wasn't there for that. I was there to get my
01:05:33
visa back and and stuff. And um yeah, I call him a bit of a a cheeky bastard because he I was on the ground
01:05:42
and the cops had the gun pointed and and this this this peanut man, he just goes,
01:05:47
"Oh, here's your visa. You've canceled your visa again." like, "Man, I've been
01:05:50
I've been locked up with you for nearly 2 years. Never play it up, followed the
01:05:55
rules, you know, and and stuff like that, and you want to come in hard like this and give me that?" And yeah, and
01:06:02
that was the thing, you know, pick me up, gave my kids a hug, goodbye, and then everything else changed when I went
01:06:10
back to tension. Everything was different. I went back there, cops were there, immigration were lined up. They
01:06:16
were lined up in this real massive line of when you go into the gate and they were just all standing there and I knew
01:06:23
half of them half the men had their heads down because some of the guards in there didn't know what to do with us and
01:06:29
some of those guards were actually good to us and they were just shocked that I come back and I had one one of the
01:06:34
guards come back she was crying and she actually told the guards what the f are you doing? Why are you treating him like
01:06:40
this? you know, and and to hear that from this lady, you know, cut their job and I think I think it was about six of
01:06:49
them. Six of them threw their jobs and after that they messaged me a while ago. They threw their job. One of them passed
01:06:55
away. She was, you know, she was a cool man. She passed away about 3 years ago with cancer. She was one that um that
01:07:04
yelled and screamed, "Why are you treating him like this? He hasn't done
01:07:06
anything wrong." >> It was just a just it was just different. these guards and how they
01:07:11
were working and um yeah and I knew, okay, I've got to sign the papers. I was wearing my lawyer
01:07:20
and and he's like, man, what do we do? He's like, we can't do anything because
01:07:23
it's just going to keep changing it. Every time we fight this, they're going
01:07:26
to go, yep, cancel, cancel, cancel. So, I had to sign because I know what's going to happen next.
01:07:31
>> I sign the papers just to leave Australia. Yeah, leave Austral, the media is out, they're going to
01:07:43
um put me somewhere else, either send me over to Sydney, send me to Christmas Island or whatever, you know, cuz I stay
01:07:50
I stayed in Perth for >> it. It wasn't, you know, not much people stayed there, but I got to stay there
01:07:56
>> and that was actually worse, man. Honestly, detention is worse than prison.
01:07:59
>> Really? How? So what what other surprises like you you've never been in
01:08:04
jail before before this. Um what is the expectation versus reality for prison and detention?
01:08:09
>> Well at least jail you can go get locked away for the night and things are good.
01:08:12
It's 24 hours. Perth detention center is only small. >> You know like I say I wasn't there to
01:08:18
fire people. wasn't there to start things cuz that just falls bad on us, you know, on one side you got, you know,
01:08:23
you got your pedophiles on one side, you know, walking around like normal, you know, just thinking far, you know, and
01:08:30
then you've got all these other people with serious criminal records and stuff
01:08:34
like that and you can see who gets their visas back and it's just it's real hard
01:08:39
to see these fells get them. I seen I've seen a pedophile get his visa back. I'm
01:08:42
like, how how does how does that work? you know, here you've put him back out
01:08:47
on a on a bridging visa. You put him out there on a bridging visa where no one can get, you know, and here I am sitting
01:08:55
and other people are sitting um getting deported, you know. It was real hard, you know.
01:09:01
>> Honestly, man, when you're in jail, Yep. you get locked away, you have that time
01:09:04
away. Not at detention centers, man. I've seen people slice themselves, you know. I've been asked by by someone,
01:09:12
"Can you help me kill myself?" That was the hardest bit, man. That and um for
01:09:18
him to come and say, "I can't go. I can't be deported. I can't because I
01:09:23
won't have my kids." You know, I've seen seen brothers reading, you know, on the
01:09:28
phone cuz you're allowed the phones, but you're not allowed. You allowed the the
01:09:31
the film ones, the the ones with the cameras, >> and brothers are sitting there reading
01:09:36
stories to their kids, crying and and asking them, you know, "Dad, when are
01:09:40
you coming home?" you know, while this is all happening, you know, in the background, you got the refugees that
01:09:44
are in there, you know, slicing them, lighting themselves on fire, you know, to get their visas back. And one of the
01:09:52
things mostly was 501's and refugees didn't get on that well. You know, refugees would use 501's to get their
01:09:59
visas back. >> You know, getting blamed for I'm not safe here. He's a 501, he wants to get
01:10:04
me high. I want my visa back. This, this, and that. And who gets Shanghai to Christmas Island? Not not them.
01:10:11
>> Us Kiwis get Shanghai to Christmas Island once again. A place that is not
01:10:16
for us, you know. So that was that is the difference, you know. Unless you can go away and and have that break
01:10:25
tensions, man. There's there's no break. It's 24 hours, you know. And that was
01:10:29
then. I don't know what it's like now, but that's what it was back then, you
01:10:32
know. >> Just in that one answer, Lee, you mentioned some disturbing stuff. You
01:10:37
mentioned um people slicing themselves. someone setting themselves on fire, someone asking you to help him take his
01:10:42
own life. What What does that do to a person >> mentally? >> Yeah. >> Uh
01:10:50
>> how do you get through that? >> Like I said, it is hard because there's
01:10:56
one reason why I'm there and that's for me. That's for me to get my visa back,
01:11:02
you know. And here I am doing it in in in this environment, you know, and and just seeing people,
01:11:10
you know, especially our own people there, you know, doing that stuff. And most of all was to go to, you know,
01:11:15
Christmas Island. They didn't want to go to Christmas Island, you know. >> I can remember, you know, remember one
01:11:21
visit, one of my real close mates, man, he wanted to see his daughter hadn't
01:11:23
seen it for ages. Next minute I sprung on him. You going to Christmas Island? Said, "But I got to visit my daughter."
01:11:28
No, you don't. >> You're going to Christmas Island. What is that going to do to your mental
01:11:32
health? M >> you know he just turned you know walked around the thing metal bar and I had to
01:11:39
talk to him and said he and he listens all the time but it was this moment where he just said to me he goes bro I'm
01:11:44
not going I'm not going there I want to see my daughter I will just smash anyone
01:11:49
this and that you know the the the mental the mental stuff of how they can just do that how they can just send our
01:11:57
people to an island that was not built for us >> what it is it's it's It's it's torture
01:12:02
and torment in a way, isn't it? It's trying to break you. >> Yeah. Break him. And that's all he
01:12:06
wanted to do. All he wanted to do was see his daughter, get to see his daughter >> before anything else happened. And he
01:12:12
didn't get that. And he just he just flipped. >> And he was real humbled person. And that
01:12:18
sort of um you know, the well-being of of up here, you know, can do that to you, you know,
01:12:25
>> especially you haven't seen your your father or your your your kids and that
01:12:28
for ages, you know. uh this the stuff that your um kids experienced like seeing you know seeing
01:12:36
armed cops storm in your house and you know take you away at gunpoint. Um is it something you've discussed as a family
01:12:42
like what sort of impact did it have on them? Yeah, we have, you know, the hardest
01:12:47
thing for my, you know, obviously my kids, you know, to my wife was, um, they were born up in Aussie,
01:12:53
>> you know, they they did have a good life, you know, just to see, you know,
01:12:59
their dad being treated like that. Um, was hard for them. It was hard for them to settle back here in New Zealand
01:13:03
because they didn't know New Zealand, >> you know. So, um, yeah, it it it was hard for them. Um,
01:13:12
like I say, we talk about um the thing the things is is real funny that um a lot of people say that gang members and
01:13:22
and bikes and people that do bad things that their kids are going to be bad. Their kids are going to turn up them and
01:13:28
stuff like that. I know heaps of brothers out there, man. They got, you know, kids out there doing great things,
01:13:34
you know, playing good sports and stuff like that. You know, when we have those conversations about, oh, your dad's a a
01:13:41
bike, you gang b, you know, all this stuff. The kids going to be bad and this and that. And it's not like that. You
01:13:47
know, I see a lot of people's and and my kids are doing good things. They've got
01:13:50
a good life now, you know, good education. They've had a good education. They're all working and stuff like that,
01:13:57
you know. So, um, yeah. And the funny thing is Perth is home to to my kids, you know. um
01:14:08
you know they are couple of them are moving back there because that's all I know is they're going to go back there
01:14:14
and give it another a try. I'm not there to say, man, what what what why the [ __ ]
01:14:18
you want to go back there for? Look what they done. You know, >> but that's where they they want to go
01:14:22
back to. So, >> I'm not going to stop that, you know. End of the day, they can go back there
01:14:26
and and do what they want to do, >> you know. So, yeah, it was hard for them
01:14:31
at that time, >> you know, and and stuff like that. But I think um seeing where I'm at today and
01:14:38
what I've got through, you know. Yeah. >> [ __ ] mate. this this uh I mean you've
01:14:44
made it clear during this chat this this gang it gave you a lot but it took it cost a lot as well.
01:14:49
>> Yeah. >> Came at a heavy price. >> Yeah. It came at a heavy price but that
01:14:53
was me. That was my that was my I'm not here going to sit here and and blame the
01:14:59
boys and this and that because like I say they fully supported me. >> You know they they had my back when I
01:15:07
was going through and all the other boys going through the court system fighting
01:15:11
the fight with us. you know, um, and stuff like that, you know, it was my decision. I made that decision and end
01:15:20
of the day, that's that's on me, >> you know. And yeah, >> I think this is something that a lot of
01:15:25
people, myself included, like just can't completely understand, you know. It's um
01:15:28
it's it's um it's a a thicker relationship than family. It's people
01:15:32
that never turn their back on you. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and like it
01:15:37
was probably one of the hardest things because that's all I knew, >> you know. All I knew was those brothers.
01:15:43
>> Yeah. >> You know, but like I say, man, I >> mental health, man. Really, really got
01:15:50
me. >> Yeah. >> If this part of the podcast got turned into like a little Tik Tok or something.
01:15:58
I can imagine the comments underneath it'll be like, "Oh, well, moral of the
01:16:01
story, don't join a gang, kids, or play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Choose
01:16:06
your friends wisely. What would you say? >> Oh, just laugh. You know, I get comments
01:16:10
all the time when people, you know, you see it all on social media, see it in the papers, people going to put their
01:16:15
comments, you know, for me, I really don't care, >> you know. I'm doing me. It's part of my
01:16:20
life, part of my journey, you know. Um, yeah, people can say what they want to say,
01:16:27
>> you know. And it's funny, too, because end of the day, people will sit sit sit
01:16:31
on their computers and and and do all their [ __ ] comments and that, but they probably got [ __ ] going on
01:16:37
their lives as well, >> mate. everyone has, >> you know, so they can sit there and
01:16:40
whatever, you know. Um, and you know, for me it's it's at the moment it's growth now. I've
01:16:49
learned, you know, I've made decisions, you know, I've made bad decisions in my
01:16:53
life and I don't think, you know, join the brothers that I joined that it was
01:16:59
uh, you know, a bad decision, you know, because I seen the brotherhood. when you're going through what I've been
01:17:05
through and that's all you know and who you can trust. Okay, that's a decision
01:17:09
that I made, >> you know, and um like I say, I don't I don't go out, man, and and and talk club
01:17:18
life anymore, you know, 100% I respect. You got people out there that want to [ __ ] talk [ __ ] and, you know, tell
01:17:26
tell whatever you want to tell. And it's like, man, that's not your place
01:17:30
anymore, you know? I mean, some of these fell probably got booted out and probably on the [ __ ] gear or whatever
01:17:35
like that and blame everyone else, but actually it's your own fault, you know,
01:17:40
but you're not in that lifestyle. Leave it alone, you know. >> Oh, you just made a comment there. Is
01:17:45
that potentially something you'd get booted out for if you if you got an issue with the gear?
01:17:49
>> Well, it's it's it's one of their rules, you know, in some of these clubs, you
01:17:52
know, >> and I've seen some boys, but end of the day, that's your decision that you do.
01:17:58
Hey, >> you know, and believe it there, >> you know, stay out of that world. That's
01:18:03
not your world anymore. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that's what I do. My world
01:18:07
here now is being a voice for our being a voice for our men that are in the dark times, you know, making those
01:18:15
changes. You know, a lot of our our and we'll talk about what I do at the at my
01:18:20
at my job I do now. They're gang families. You know, it's generational. I'm not there to tell them, "Hey,
01:18:25
>> yeah, >> get out." You know, that's that's not my job to tell them that.
01:18:31
>> You know, my my job is to give them opportunities, make some changes, get
01:18:35
them a job wherever they need. You know, we've got a lot of our out there that
01:18:39
some of their parents are finding it real hard to show up >> for themselves. if they can't show for
01:18:44
themselves. how are they going to show their so that's when we come into that
01:18:48
space as youth workers and come in and go hey we're here to help you and give
01:18:53
you opportunities and give you the tools and if the parents want the tools too we'll give them the tools to help them
01:18:59
you know and not judge you know >> I promise we're getting we're into the
01:19:03
really good stuff one more card and then I've got a card called boxing and purpose
01:19:06
>> okay cool yeah >> you must be like this this chance a stitch up >> yeah how we've been going like an hour
01:19:15
20. How you feeling? >> No, all good. Yeah. Well, yeah. No, it's it's all good. You know, it's um
01:19:20
>> I've noticed you get emotional a couple of times. Eh, >> yeah.
01:19:22
>> Shows how much you care. >> I do. And um I thought it, you know, Yeah. I thought it'd be sort of past
01:19:28
that, but it it does, you know, especially when you talked about the childhood, >> you know, I sit there with people and
01:19:37
go, "Oh, yeah, my childhood. I would have done this and remember this and da
01:19:40
da da da da." you know, for me, I I can't remember, you know, fully on on my
01:19:47
childhood. I can't remember. I can't store things in in my head. And and it's
01:19:52
quite funny because, you know, I'm I don't write stuff down. I can do things and, you know, I've done
01:20:00
some big events and I've never written them down. I've just I just it just
01:20:06
comes out of my head and I just go with it. And um that's one thing I've found
01:20:11
real hard. You know, I even talked to my counselor about it, you know, about dreaming. I don't hardly dream ever. I
01:20:15
don't have dreams. You know, when we talk about dreams, people ask me, "What
01:20:18
do you dream about, you know?" I was like, "Fuck, I don't know." You know, I
01:20:22
don't know what to dream about cuz I don't I don't dream, you know. But like
01:20:26
I say, when people see me in the space with my people look at me and go, "Yeah, you're
01:20:31
serious. You're grumpy." Yeah. Like they do that. They come past and whack me on
01:20:37
the head and, you know, call me all these names and I'm laughing with them. But, you know, I think it's I found who
01:20:43
I am now. I want to be that that young fellow. >> Yeah. >> I want to bring the inner boy, the the
01:20:49
the kid I am today that I wasn't when I was 8 years old, >> you know, and that was from all the hard
01:20:55
work I've done to arm mask all the hate, all the darkness, all the anger, you
01:21:02
know, and stuff like that. and actually find out actually now I can enjoy myself
01:21:06
through these young lang and enjoy being funny and and and stuff like that and spending that time with
01:21:14
them enjoying that because I didn't have that when I was younger. >> There used to be a massive I don't know
01:21:19
if you remember this this may have been when you were in Australia but there used to be a massive ad campaign here in
01:21:23
New Zealand called break the cycle. >> Why is it so hard to break the cycle?
01:21:28
>> I know there's that saying hurt people hurt people. What >> people I think sometimes people hear
01:21:35
sometimes people are are scared to break the cycle. >> Some people think you know breaking the cycle is hard you
01:21:44
know breaking the cycle is weak you know um you know I got brothers out there man
01:21:51
that have broken massive cycles for themselves you know um >> you have >> yeah yeah I have. Yeah. And like I say,
01:22:01
we talk about making changes in our lives and and being a change maker, you know. Um, and that's what what we are.
01:22:10
We're just trying to make changes in our lives >> and be, you know, change makers for
01:22:14
other people, you know. Um, yeah. >> Well, a lot of people would go, um, well, you know, you didn't like being
01:22:23
treated that way when you were young. Like, surely it's easy just to go in the
01:22:27
opposite direction. But it's not as simple as that, is it? It's very complex.
01:22:30
>> It's It is. It is complex. Like I say, we got so much going on inside
01:22:34
ourselves. >> Um, you know, you've got to you've got to dig deep. You've got to look and
01:22:40
you've got to look in that mirror, look at the changes, and say to yourself, are
01:22:45
you ready? Are you ready to change? You know, some people are just [ __ ] too scared to say that.
01:22:51
>> Do you love yourself? Do you love, you know, can you look in the mirror and
01:22:55
say, "Fuck, actually, you know, and when I started this journey, when I was in
01:23:01
the [ __ ] dark place, when I started the obviously the boxing, it was the mirror that changed me. Honestly, bro,
01:23:08
it changed me. I looked in there and I [ __ ] I've always had people behind me
01:23:12
supporting me, especially the brothers and my friends and this and that. But when we change our life, I looked in
01:23:18
that mirror, man, I just [ __ ] about to hit a bag. I looked in the mirror. The mirror was just in the spot and I
01:23:23
looked at it and go, "Fuck." Actually, who the [ __ ] behind me? >> There's no one behind me. Who's going to
01:23:29
help me? No one's going to help you, bro. Cuz you know why? Cuz you can only
01:23:33
help yourself. Hey, you look at those things and goes, I can give you all the talks in the world you want. But if you
01:23:40
can't do it yourself, no one's going to do it for you. Hey, and that mirror man
01:23:44
just changed my whole life of his perspective of [ __ ] who the [ __ ] is with you? Who's going to support you?
01:23:50
Who's going to go through here with you? And it's only me, man. I'm going to do
01:23:54
it myself. And it's going to be hard, >> you know. It's going to be a it's going
01:23:57
to be a ride. >> Hey, you know, >> yeah, there's a there's um there's a
01:24:02
famous poem. I I can't remember it completely, but people can look it up called um the man in the mirror or the
01:24:06
man in the glass. >> Um and it's about like Yeah. When >> I used to be my favorite song, man in
01:24:10
the mirror. >> Oh, no. Not the neck and chain. >> Different. >> Yeah.
01:24:18
>> No, the man. It's called the man in the mirror. The man in the glass. And it
01:24:20
just just talks about how like the the the you know the person staring back at you knows everything and you can't lie
01:24:26
to that person. How long were you um saying you you loved you loved yourself in the mirror before you actually
01:24:32
believed that? >> It took a few goes, bro. >> Yeah, it took a few goes. It took a lot
01:24:37
of a lot of um connect connecting with other brothers, you know, um hearing their stories, you know, hearing their
01:24:48
changes in their lives and and looking in on themselves and and saying, "Man,
01:24:52
if if we want to make changes, we got to make changes with ourselves. We can't be
01:24:56
out there talking [ __ ] when we haven't sort our own [ __ ] out." You know,
01:25:00
there's so many people out there that can that are are talking all the stuff,
01:25:03
but they haven't actually told themselves that they love themselves or they they haven't found, you know,
01:25:09
healing, you know, and finding that purpose and, you know, >> why and and when we talk to,
01:25:16
they can smell [ __ ] >> They can smell true, you know, or they can smell persons that actually, no,
01:25:23
you're actually just talking [ __ ] man. >> You know, I can see it. You're not real,
01:25:28
>> you know. So, and I learn I learn off all those, you know, I learn off everyone, you know, but being around,
01:25:34
you know, there certain people that I've been around, man. Matt Brown's one of
01:25:37
them, you know, Matt Brown. My brother Jordan from Tawa Foundation and got him. My brother Dave from the Felon Show,
01:25:44
he's called the Felon Show. He does um he does the Fresh Start. He's a 501 man.
01:25:49
He he's just beautiful, you know. We we talk about struggles and stuff like that. And I got heaps of brothers that
01:25:56
that have shown me the path of actually, bro, we need to love ourselves first cuz
01:26:01
if we don't, we can't we can't carry on with this journey of change.
01:26:05
>> Yeah. >> You know, >> so you end up giving giving up the flight in Australia and surrendering.
01:26:14
Then then what happens? Are you allowed to you allowed to leave with your family
01:26:17
on your own free will or >> I got escorted back? Yeah. I had a couple of guards. They escorted me back.
01:26:23
>> Right. with other 501s or >> n I come back on the plane by myself.
01:26:26
>> Just you and just me and two guards. >> Are you are you ced on the plane or are
01:26:30
you not? >> No, they were actually all right actually. Um >> cuz I saw some footage on the news here
01:26:34
at um I don't know in between you being deported and now and that was looked
01:26:39
like Cona. >> Yeah. >> Like she's just a bunch of Kiwis being sort of marched onto the
01:26:45
>> Yeah. Look at that man. I think that was just more of a look at Yeah. Look at
01:26:48
look at me, look at us, you know, and >> flex >> pretty much a flex, you know. And um for
01:26:54
me, I come back and I had to go through the [ __ ] system, you know. They really treating me as, yeah, you're
01:27:00
going to have conditions, you're going to do this, this, and that. I'm pretty
01:27:03
much like, [ __ ] I am. I'm not doing that because end of the day, I'd never
01:27:08
been to jail. I don't have a criminal record, you know, just cuz I'm, you
01:27:12
know, club affiliated that you're going to tell me, give me these rules, you
01:27:16
know. So I stood there for about half an hour to an hour telling these fellows they want to do all these big searches.
01:27:21
I said see you later you can't do that. So I got to walk out you know. >> So and then what what does day one in
01:27:28
New Zealand look like? >> Day one for me it was a little bit different because media was here. Um you
01:27:34
know a lot of people wanted to hear the story and and and I told them the story but um first day was you know I was in
01:27:42
the club so couple of boys picked me up. Is is there a Rebels motorcycle club in
01:27:47
New Zealand or like a chapter here? >> There is they're worldwide. But
01:27:52
>> the end of the day, like I say, I've been away from that that lifestyle for
01:27:56
>> for so long. So, um, you know, my my focus isn't is not on what happens in
01:28:03
New Zealand with the clubs anymore. >> Yeah. >> Um, so yeah, I focus on on on the stuff
01:28:08
that I do now. Like I say, I got out seven. They gave me seven days. 7 days and 500 bucks to survive for two weeks,
01:28:16
you know. So, I I used the used the two weeks up and then I went back down to Christ Church close to my family. My
01:28:23
family was still over in over in um Aussie trying to get rid of their stuff and you know and and getting them
01:28:29
sorted. So, I had to come back to reality and and haven't been working for 2 years. So, it was pretty hard
01:28:35
>> get back into then. I just wanted to get back into work. um you know get all that
01:28:40
and get my family back and then you know try to get back into club life but like
01:28:44
I say I was just my mental health was was kind wasn't in a good place. >> So you go pretty much straight back to
01:28:51
Blenham. >> No I went to Cross. Yeah. Went there cuz my dad and my family there.
01:28:55
>> So I went back there for a while and >> hung out there for a while. Um
01:29:00
>> did you manage to find a job reasonably quickly as a carpet layer? >> Oh man. Uh I honestly I went to Christ
01:29:05
Church. lucky I had a couple mates down there that wanted to work but I had to sign up for job seekers or the benefit
01:29:12
whatever it was man that was that was hard for me to do because of I've worked
01:29:16
most of my life and I went in there and I could still remember the fellow man like
01:29:21
no wonder some of our our 501's get pissed off when they come back here they
01:29:25
get looked down on looked down on upon and stuff like I just sitting there with this fell pink shirt on hoy toy and he's
01:29:33
sort of talking down to me like you know I didn't have any quality ifications and
01:29:37
he said, "Oh, you know, you're back here. What do you what what's your thing
01:29:41
and what do you want to do when you get back here?" And I said, "Actually, I'm
01:29:43
only coming here because the lady that was beside me through PAS said I had to come and sign up for the benefit just
01:29:49
cuz to get some money behind me and he asked me what I done." I said, "I'm a
01:29:53
qualified car player." And then his whole attitude changed >> thinking, "Oh, actually, oh, you have a
01:29:57
trade behind you this and that." You know, so his whole attitude changed on
01:30:02
who I was and what I do, you know. Um, >> oh, >> he just assumed you Yeah. He assumed,
01:30:08
you know, 501, you know, coming back to this and that. It's just the way he he
01:30:12
held himself, >> you know, and and making people feel uncomfortable. And so I just, yeah,
01:30:18
said, I'm here. This lady wants me to get on the benefit. I'm actually a car
01:30:21
player, you know, and I think I got one payment from the one payment from the benefit and my mate helped me. I started
01:30:28
caring again. So >> um I was only in Christ Church for 3 months and I had to go I went back to
01:30:34
Blendham because Blendham was my hometown. People know me, you know, and the situation I was in, you know, but I
01:30:41
went back to Blenham, man. And yeah, everyone was focused on me because, you know, Rebel coming back to uh back to
01:30:49
Blenhum, he's going to take over Blenham and start all this [ __ ] up and I wasn't even thinking with that, you
01:30:55
know. I was worried about getting my family back, getting work, and no one would give me work. Like, I knew a lot
01:31:00
of people there, but it was real hard. But one of my mates, they had showed me how to car. Um, he reached out to I
01:31:07
reached out to him, even though I had a fallout for him, you know, and I asked him, "Hey, bro, have you got a job for
01:31:13
me?" And he goes, "Yeah, part-time job." And, um, I thought his part-time job
01:31:18
would be like 3 days a week, but it wasn't. It was 5 days. And to this day, man, he's been one of my biggest
01:31:25
supporters. >> Why did Why did he give you a second chance? >> He knew me as Lee. He didn't know me as
01:31:30
Lee, the rebel, the deport, the the the bad person that everyone wants to call. He knew me as a lot of people in Blenham
01:31:36
knew me as that. You know, they didn't look at that and go, "Oh, yeah, Lee, you
01:31:41
know, he's a rebel and he's this, this, and that." You know, >> is it hard finding people that can see
01:31:45
past the exterior? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it was. you know, but that's why I
01:31:50
went back to Britain. >> Yeah. >> You know, I know walks of life back
01:31:53
there, you know, and it wasn't for my if it wasn't for my mom, I don't know where
01:31:58
what where what I would be doing. >> Oddly enough, I'd still be here. >> Yeah. Cuz your mental health
01:32:06
deteriorated uh when you moved back to um New Zealand, >> what did stop you from taking your own
01:32:12
life? >> My daughter. Yeah. Um, two of my daughters actually. I was I was that close on just [ __ ] it.
01:32:23
You know, depression got me real bad. It was a real thing because I lost a lot of
01:32:29
weight and stuff like that. And you know, some some of when you get some of the boys questioning about, oh, bro,
01:32:35
you're on the [ __ ] me, you lost so much weight and this and that. It wasn't
01:32:38
it wasn't that. It was the stress on my life. It was coming back home doing club
01:32:44
life. my family, my mom's sick, um, you know, just trying to focus and coming
01:32:52
back to my trauma, you know, coming back to my where my trauma happened, my abuse
01:32:57
that I didn't sort out when I left, >> just all hit me cuz I went home and I
01:33:01
took my took my kids around for where I used to live, you know, >> show my kids, we've had a good life, but
01:33:06
this is where I'm brought up from. where some of my mates are still store and
01:33:09
your kids are >> you know um we're not you know we come home we don't [ __ ] judge people where
01:33:16
they come from and I think that hit me going past the house that I got abused at and looked at and going [ __ ] man I
01:33:22
haven't even sorted my [ __ ] out you know I haven't even you know I've come back
01:33:26
I've got all the [ __ ] pole I mean and um yeah in my darkest times man I just said to myself I said [ __ ] I don't
01:33:34
want to be here anymore it's way easier just to [ __ ] and walk away. >> But then I just realized that um you
01:33:42
know my um my ex partner, she rang me up and said, "Hey, your daughter's in
01:33:46
hospital." I said, "Hey." And uh at that moment, you know, my oldest was going through some [ __ ] and
01:33:52
you know, I could talk to her and let her know that I love her and this and that, but when you get a phone call and
01:33:59
your daughter is sitting there and she just goes, "Dad, I don't want to be
01:34:04
here." And I'm just looking at my [ __ ] self going, "What the [ __ ] man?
01:34:08
I don't want to be here ever. I don't want my life. It's easy just to go and and just leave
01:34:16
you to it." And I think that was the moment, bro, that [ __ ] this is a wakeup call, man.
01:34:24
This is a [ __ ] call where [ __ ] your kids need you. Your daughter needs you. And I just felt this thing where man,
01:34:31
okay, I'm going to take my life, but what I'm what am I doing? [ __ ] what I'm doing is
01:34:38
I'm leaving the pain with my kids. >> I'm leaving the pain with my grandkids.
01:34:42
You know, I had um three grandkids, I think it was, or two, no, two grandkids, I think. Yeah, two grandkids.
01:34:51
And um honestly, bro, I've got I've got five now and another one on the way.
01:34:59
That's six grandkids that I can [ __ ] get to see. >> I get to see them grow. I get to see my
01:35:05
kids grow. I get them to see them achieve what they are. And I get to see, you know, what my dream is really about.
01:35:13
And my dream is now where I'm at now. I get to see it, bro. And um it was my
01:35:17
daughter. If if that moment didn't happen, I [ __ ] I reckon I like I say, bro, I reckon I wouldn't be here
01:35:25
>> because there was a sign to say, actually, [ __ ] that. I need you. I need
01:35:29
you here so I can enjoy my life, too, but I want you to enjoy it with me. I want you to see us grow and and see my
01:35:37
grandkids grow. So, >> yeah, >> you you get to see all of that. They get
01:35:42
to see um you become the man that you you can be and you get to see you reach your full potential as well.
01:35:49
>> It's wins all around. What would you say to anyone that's um listening to this or
01:35:52
watching this that's in that dark corner right now? What would your advice be to
01:35:55
them? >> Just to say, "Fuck, I'm here. I'm going to sit here and I'm going to listen.
01:36:03
I'm here for you to tell me [ __ ] what's going on, bro. What's going on?" And
01:36:08
some of that some of that stuff, bro, is [ __ ] I had a [ __ ] day at work, you know, or I got upset at the kids or I
01:36:17
done something wrong. Like, okay, I've gone through the court system again. I've I've [ __ ] failed. I've [ __ ] up
01:36:22
again. No, you haven't, bro. You just made a little mistake. If that's all it
01:36:26
is, bro, it can be fixed. >> You know, we we run into these walls of, you know, the only [ __ ] roadblocks,
01:36:34
you know, how do we get around it? You know, a lot of our a lot of our people just need someone to [ __ ] talk to.
01:36:40
>> Let it out. And all they want you to do is just listen. And all you can say to
01:36:45
them is go, "Bro, I hear you, bro. I hear your conversations. You know, I know what you're going
01:36:51
through or been through there, but there's a purpose why you're here. There's a reason why you're here." And I
01:36:56
always tell tell men, "My reason is is because my kids were going through their
01:37:03
dark times. My reason here, my purpose here now is to be a voice for our for our men that sit in those dark places
01:37:11
for our community, you know. Um, and that's what, you know, that's why our
01:37:17
brothers are going through some dark times, you know, because they feel weak. They feel like no one wants to [ __ ]
01:37:22
listen, >> but actually we do, you know, and let them know that, hey, today might be a
01:37:28
bad day, but when you wake up, my bro, hey, you're woken up, you're here still.
01:37:33
There's a reason why you're here, you know, and it's just catching them at the
01:37:36
moment. Some brothers, you know, sometimes and we talk about those those dark times, bro. We talk about suicide.
01:37:44
You know, suicide is a is a hard thing because it'll take anyone, you know, it
01:37:49
doesn't care who it takes. It's how we, you know, we talk about and stuff
01:37:54
like that. People talk about, oh, can't talk about suicide because they just go
01:37:58
and do it. was like, "Well, no, because end of the day, we we need conversations
01:38:02
on it, you know? We need to have those talks and and ask them, bro, why [ __ ] are you going through then?" You know,
01:38:07
and I found out the hard way, bro. >> I've I've lost a mate while I was in
01:38:12
detention, a real good mate of mine. Um, at those times when I was in detention,
01:38:18
I had a [ __ ] day. And I said to my bro, "Come and visit me." I said, "Hey, bro.
01:38:23
I'm just having a [ __ ] day, man. Like, I really don't want any visitors." And it
01:38:28
was real hard because he was looking forward to the visit. And then the next day I get a phone call and he took his
01:38:37
life. But the thing was he was still alive like he was on a on a on a machine. His mom found him and two young
01:38:47
young kids found him found him hanging and just around the corner from his house. So mom heard all the screaming.
01:38:53
So she's come out and I really feel for her because she had to witness this.
01:38:57
This fellow man was he was he he was a G he was young you know I met him in jail
01:39:02
was one of my cellmates and he was man he was gangster like he was only young and those moments where I was like [ __ ]
01:39:11
those thoughts were going man what if what if what if bro I said come and see me what what do you want to talk to me
01:39:17
about you know and I heard it was over a girl and I was like I would have just said to him hey bro you know don't worry
01:39:24
about that my bro you know but it's hard because we think that that it was going
01:39:30
to help him and get him through that, but it didn't. I got to say goodbye to
01:39:33
him. The guards let me go say goodbye to him. It was real hard cuz I, you know, I
01:39:37
see mom and and um I just see my bro there and and I and I and I whispered in his ear and and I apologized.
01:39:48
You know, it took me ages to get over that, but I realized that when I start learning more about suicide, it it's
01:39:55
actually we can't sit here and say the whatifs. >> And then um you know, that was that side
01:40:02
of it. Then couple of years ago, I had another good mate of mine here and blend him pass away. I got him on the other
01:40:08
side. He reached out. He attempted it once and um I helped him. He come to me and he just said, "Bro, I don't want to
01:40:16
be here." I said, "Yeah, bro. you I want you here because I love you, bro. You
01:40:20
know, there's a reason why you're here. And he goes, "Okay." So, I've got him in
01:40:25
that that right space, happy, working again. Um, and we're supposed to do a short film together. We got we got
01:40:31
invited to do a short short film together. Uh, I remember I I went away for a few days and I checked up on him
01:40:38
once and the next two days I was busy and um and I come back and then we had the the the uh film the first film shoot
01:40:47
on I think it was on a Friday and um I messaged him and said, "Hey bro, where are you? You're not here."
01:40:53
You know, we got the film ship real excited cuz it's about two, you know, two gangsters doing a doing a drug deal.
01:40:59
You know, he he was he was left that world too. So they want us to do the short film and be that person. And I was
01:41:03
like, man, real excited to do do it with him cuz I asked him to come and do it with me.
01:41:08
And then um yeah, 1:00, man, I got this phone call. And the phone call was, "Hey, bro, you heard about Cod?" He
01:41:15
said, "No, is you all good? Where is he?" He goes, "Oh, no, bro. He's not
01:41:19
here." I said, "What?" He goes, "Nah, he's taking his life."
01:41:25
In that moment, bro, it was just like once again the triggers of the whatifs. >> But I got him in that place of
01:41:32
happiness. I got him into the place where [ __ ] bro, you're all good. You know, and it's real hard to understand
01:41:37
that that okay, I got one brother that went because he, you know, didn't talk
01:41:42
to him and he was in a real bad place, but then another brother where [ __ ] we,
01:41:46
you know, we thought we fixed him. We thought we we got him into that happy place,
01:41:51
but you know, suicide took him and and just just like that, eh? >> Yeah, it's a tricky it's it's a tricky
01:41:59
one. cuz it it is always the individual's decision and it's just it's
01:42:03
tough and I I say to people you just got to hang on to hang on to the m live in the moment hang just hang on to hope
01:42:10
>> hope that the next moment's going to be better because it's a permanent
01:42:13
>> uh it's a permanent solution to what is always a temporary problem.
01:42:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's tough. You don't still hold yourself responsible?
01:42:21
>> No. Because I've learned, you know, I can't Yeah. I had to let that go and
01:42:24
actually think to myself and have people around me that are in that space to say,
01:42:30
you know, it's one of those topics that is hard, >> you know, we we can't sit there and and
01:42:34
and blame blame ourselves and and sit there and say we're out here to save the
01:42:39
world because we're not, you know. >> Um yeah, so I learned on both sides of
01:42:45
of that. So, we're at the point of the story now where you you're back in Blenhham.
01:42:50
You're trying to you pick up the pieces and rebuild your life. Um, this is when
01:42:54
you you um uncouple from the rebels, the gang >> um because it's just not serving your
01:43:00
mental health anymore. Um, and you discover boxing as well. You hang up a bag. >> Yeah. Hang up a bag. Yeah. Yeah.
01:43:06
>> Why? What made you do that? >> Boxing's changed your life. >> Yeah. Boxing has Boxing saved my life,
01:43:11
man. Boxing has given me opportunities of being here and doing what I do. Um [ __ ] Yeah. Um yeah, I done a bit of
01:43:22
boxing over Aussie. Had a couple of amateur fights. Nothing flash, but I wanted to give it a go. Was around
01:43:27
certain people that were in that boxing game. And before I was before I was got deported, we had this plan of starting
01:43:33
our own boxing gym with with a good uh he's like a father figure to me. And um
01:43:38
we're always going to call it box on boxing. Um the reason why we call a box
01:43:43
on boxing because end of the day whatever whatever we go through in life the [ __ ] that we get put on us and we go
01:43:51
into those real deep places is that actually we we can carry on with life. we can smash through the wall and we can
01:43:57
we can still box on and it just it just clicked and I told my I told my mate that um
01:44:06
you know I am going to start something up with boxing uh when it was or or whenever it was going to happen. Um and
01:44:14
I think that was the moment where [ __ ] this is the time where man I'm going to
01:44:18
hang that bag up. I'm going to let [ __ ] out. I'm going to get me out of the
01:44:21
dark. let my emotions out and just let all the anger and stuff out. And that's
01:44:27
when hitting the bag, seeing the [ __ ] mirror, sitting there, you know, sitting
01:44:31
there and looking at the mirror and saying to myself and goes, "Fuck, man. The only way you're going to get out
01:44:37
here is we're going to get out by ourselves because there's no one behind
01:44:40
you that's going to help you." You know, where's all the brothers and and the
01:44:44
friends and that that so cool that want to be with you? They're not there because, you know, they got other [ __ ]
01:44:50
going on their lives. But I'm going to I'm going to pull myself. And that's
01:44:53
yeah what I created. And um after I left the club, I just had a few people reach
01:44:59
out and say, "Hey, my kids are going through a bit of bullying, >> mental health, stuff like that." And
01:45:04
that was just like, man, I'm going through that. That's when I started my
01:45:07
journey on my mental health. And it helped me, >> you know, helped me talk about me and
01:45:13
what I was going through, but listen to other kids going through it as well. M. >> And that's how, you know, started with
01:45:19
two nerdy kids that were nerds, but they were just getting bullied at bullied at
01:45:24
school. And it that just started me off on it grew out of my garage, man. Like, I'm just one of those garage stories
01:45:29
where, yeah, hang up a boxing bag. Let's help help some people and and and go
01:45:34
from there. And it just grew. >> There's there's a a woman sitting in the
01:45:37
office um right at the moment called Maxine Sweeney. Um she's, from what I can gather, another one of these people
01:45:43
that believed in you when no one else did. >> Yeah. Uh yeah. How did your paths cross
01:45:47
and what sort of impact did she had on you? >> Oh man, she's um she doesn't like me talking about her.
01:45:53
She doesn't like the recognition. We always have arguments and and stuff like
01:45:58
that. She's been um the backbone of creating box on, >> you know, as well. She's been in the
01:46:09
back. She's been in the times where man um need to make some decisions. And I've
01:46:15
been through board members, you know, cuz I'm a charitable organization. Who
01:46:19
would who would have thought that a 501 gang member would would create a space, you know, through a charitable organ
01:46:28
organization to help others. Um yeah. So she come in the picture. So what had happened is um we had another friend,
01:46:36
she was a youth worker and she just asked me, you know, oh, you want to come down and have a look at the youth
01:46:42
center? And I was like, oh yeah, have a look at it. Took me a while and I thought, okay, I'm going to go down
01:46:48
there and I'm just going to walk past and have a look. So I walked past and then I went back again and then I walked
01:46:56
in and walked in and Maxine and another brother of ours Sunni was sitting there and um don't know something just clicked
01:47:05
you know something just thing about um you know why I'm here um so we just started talking and she wanted to know
01:47:14
my story told a little bit about it um and stuff like that and um we just clicked and And um I hung around for a
01:47:22
while, you know, I had to, you know, let let the know who I was and stuff like that. And um then something happened. Uh
01:47:32
I think it was I can't even remember, man. I think it might have been 200 20
01:47:37
or so. I don't know what it was. Uh an incident happened in you know, incident
01:47:42
happened in Blenhum. I was just about to start my youth work and uh an incident happened and um it was real hard because
01:47:50
um it it was you know obviously people I knew but it was my start of my journey of being a youth worker once again bang
01:48:00
the door got closed once again [ __ ] I'm here trying I'm here [ __ ] I want to change my life I found
01:48:08
out what I want to do and it stopped and I and the program didn't happened. Maxine and my other bro had to tell me,
01:48:16
give me the bad news, say, "Hey, we can't do the program because of, you
01:48:20
know, your stuff that you used to do this and that." I said, "Man, this is the right time to bring this in.
01:48:25
This is the right time to bring me in here and show and that that the choices we make in
01:48:31
life can destroy someone's life just like that and someone else's." So,
01:48:35
>> um, yeah, done that. And then um it wasn't goodbye, it was that's cool, I
01:48:42
want to go reset myself and do do my stuff. And then I went, you know, cook my got my own boxing gym.
01:48:51
It was only a small one. And then um Maxim reached out again and um went behind, you know, went behind work and
01:48:59
stuff like that. You know, she just knew something was up. She knew there was something good there and she just stuck
01:49:08
behind me all all the time and then each time I just had to keep proving to people that I have changed heaps people
01:49:16
you know police people in the community now he's still doing the same thing he's
01:49:19
using that as a recruitment thing he's he's he's you know wants to patch up
01:49:25
people this but I was on a journey of change so I already left the club you know so I still had those things but she
01:49:30
stood there and said you know I can see something. >> So she come on to my board and um then I
01:49:37
just started learning youth work, you know, learning how to be a proper youth worker, the way to show up for our youth
01:49:46
and show up for them and >> and let them know that I'm here and stuff like that. And it was voluntary.
01:49:52
My first year was voluntary. So I had to prove in the background too to prove to
01:49:58
uh the trust that I working for now that I have changed. Even though you said I can't you can't come in this space
01:50:04
anymore. You know I still said I'm going to still work with youth. If it's not
01:50:09
with youth I'll do it at my boxing gym. I'll do in the community but I had Max
01:50:13
in the background show me teaching me youth stuff cuz youth work bro. Everyone wants to be a youth worker
01:50:20
>> but it's not as easy as what they think it is man. It's hard, man. And when
01:50:23
you're dealing with, you know, different diversity of kids and stuff like that.
01:50:28
And that was my thing of um growing growing box on boxing, it turned into, okay, we need to start putting policies,
01:50:36
procedures, we need to start doing this, this, and that. And she's just been a
01:50:40
massive backbone of youth work and stuff like that. >> The world needs more Maxine Sweenies.
01:50:46
people that just have that, you know, if you look for the good in in someone or look for the bad in someone, you'll find
01:50:52
it either way. >> You do in anybody and absolutely anybody. It seems I'm getting emotional
01:50:57
thinking about Maxine. >> You do. Yeah. And >> how does it make you feel that she she
01:51:02
didn't know? Yeah. But she still had your back and she thought she >> Yeah. And never takes any credibility of
01:51:09
what Boxon's about either. Yeah. Okay. it's my my dream, my organization, but
01:51:15
end of the day, the people in the back background believe in you and stuff like that, you know, it's um yeah, you know,
01:51:23
you have our families and that backing up, but you have a person like that that just wants to believe in you and what
01:51:28
you do and um you know, I've met a lot of youth workers, man. I've met met, you
01:51:35
know, some real good youth workers, but you know, she is she is the the knees bees of of youth work and what it's
01:51:45
about and how to approach it and and stuff like we have our arguments, we have our moments, we have blowups, you
01:51:53
know, but she's taught me to, okay, we have a blow up, but we're going to go
01:51:57
away. We're going to walk away cuz it's going to, you know, just seriously, you
01:52:02
know, just thing up. Okay. When I first started, I was like, you know, okay, if you this and that, and [ __ ] you don't
01:52:09
know me. You don't know anything, you know. And she actually taught me that sometimes I'm a father to these youth.
01:52:16
Sometimes the way I come across is actually we can't be that person, you know. We can't be the sometimes we can't
01:52:23
be that father figure for these kids. We've got to come on another approach.
01:52:27
So, um I've learned so much from from her in that space and um and and where I
01:52:34
am today and you know and and building my team that I have now. Um I've been
01:52:41
through so many people, man, friends, family, people that say I'm there for you this and that. And don't get me
01:52:47
wrong, like I probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them as well because
01:52:50
end of the day, they helped me, you know, build it, but they weren't in for the right stuff that I was in it for.
01:52:57
>> Yeah. >> And now my board and my my committee are, you know, um, policeman,
01:53:06
social worker, OT, um, a real good accountant, a real good um, just got a real estate person on
01:53:13
business. old friend of mine. He's just watching my my my stuff and he he's come
01:53:18
home and he's just like, man, I need to jump on this. Uh and then hopefully my
01:53:22
my friend, you know, helped me off work, he's going to jump on and then I've got
01:53:28
another young fellow. He's a moldy. He come to me 2 3 years ago, >> 150 kilos, mental health, didn't want to
01:53:37
be here, stuff like that. and now he's 90 kilos working for the council doing
01:53:42
some real good stuff for for our people back home >> and um he wants to jump on and and
01:53:48
create a safe space for us. So, um, yeah. Yeah, she's, yeah, she's pretty cool,
01:53:55
you know. We, um, like I said, we have our moments. We have our moments, but we teach each other that we got to keep
01:54:03
ourselves accountable and we got to come back and actually talk about it. >> Don't just [ __ ] get all thing and
01:54:09
then not talk about it >> and and and sort it out. So, >> yeah. >> Oh, good on her for putting your neck on
01:54:16
the line when she didn't have to. The easiest thing would have just been to say, "Oh, hey guys, I think this this
01:54:20
guy leaves all right. He seems legit." And then you reach a roadblock and it's
01:54:24
too hard. And then you just never retreated. >> No, I didn't retreat and just keep keep,
01:54:29
you know, battling the the battle, >> you know? >> What are are there any sort of standout
01:54:35
um success stories from box on boxing? Um >> Oh, these heaps, bro. >> These heaps, man. these,
01:54:42
you know, these getting people jobs, you know, creating a space where our kids are coming and
01:54:50
they're getting bullied. They the self the self-confidence is down. Um, you know, boxing's boxing is not all about
01:54:59
being violent. Boxing is not all about being the toughest and stuff like that. For me, we're community based. We're all
01:55:05
about giving people opportunities to have a go at boxing to see where it can take them. You know, we get people that
01:55:11
can't even throw a skipping rope. You know, I can't throw a skipping rope. I
01:55:14
said, "Bitch, you can." No, I can't, man. One one throw with a skipping rope
01:55:18
and you you achieve it and you say, "There you go. You've done it." You
01:55:22
know, this is not just kids, this is adults as well. And the smile you see from them and going, "Actually, okay, I
01:55:27
did do it." M >> you know so it's um we've yeah we've had
01:55:32
some big successes in in in our our gym of our young fellows going away in the real world you know some can't read and
01:55:41
write now they're got jobs driving the world you know one of my young fellas just come back he's traveled the
01:55:49
whole world and he come back and gave me a big massive hug and he said hey bro I'm I'm really thankful of you I'm
01:55:54
thankful of you and the team for giving me opport opportunities that that I didn't have, you know, come from a real
01:56:01
wealthy family, too, but he's traveled the world >> and stuff like that. So, yeah.
01:56:08
>> What's the future for box on boxing? Like, where do you where do you see it
01:56:11
in 5 years, 10 years time? >> Oh, man. I Everyone asks me, we always change our cuz it always changes, you
01:56:18
know, we have these big things. Um, I want box on boxing. you know our sort of our little dream is
01:56:29
youth center >> sports together so that's obviously I do a lot of stuff for mobile youth trust
01:56:33
mobile youth trust is the company I work for the charable organiz char organization I work for um I want you
01:56:41
know us together we're collabing together I really want to put them together and then um after that I want
01:56:49
um transitional housing transitional housing for You know, everyone says it's it's going
01:56:54
to be hard. It's hard work, but I believe getting those three put together where transition housing for our is we
01:57:03
got a lot of couch surfers. >> So, all I want is a place where they can sit. It's not there to live. It's there
01:57:08
to sit there instead of going around in circles and and and enjoying life with their friends and
01:57:15
living at their friends house cuz their friends are going to get sick of them. It's actually asking them what's going
01:57:19
on, what's happening at home, why are you doing this? Let's get the services
01:57:23
and the wraparounds you need and and put them there and then move them on to to better things, you know, and um like I
01:57:30
say, that's one of our massive things in in Blenham at the moment is homelessness
01:57:33
for our people will sit there and say, "Yeah, people will sit there and go,
01:57:38
well, we we don't see it." Of course, you're not going to see it cuz you're
01:57:40
not in deep in the conversations. You're not deep in the >> in the well-being of these. We see it
01:57:47
all the time. We hear it all the time. You know, couch surfing is homelessness. Couch surfing is doesn't have a home.
01:57:54
You know, where we where, you know, going around their friends and and and stuff like that. So, that's that's the
01:58:00
bigger part for me for that. Uh doing programs as well, running programs >> um and stuff like that there. So, you
01:58:08
know, part of boxing boxing too. I run a men's group too. Um my men's group is
01:58:12
called Kakurongani. Kakurani is about men speaking up. A lot of our men reach out and don't talk
01:58:22
about their triggers, their traumas. You know, a lot of it's abuse as well, sexual abuse.
01:58:27
>> Um I get a lot of people messing say, man, when you told your story and open
01:58:32
up, you know, about what you've been through, you know, um I want I want that
01:58:38
as well. But I I tell them that yeah, the first thing you got to do is come through that door, talk about it, let it
01:58:45
out, and and and and you know, have those conversations, you know. So, um that men's group I run there and I and I
01:58:52
run a free a free class on a Thursday night uh for my boxing from 7:00 to 8:00. And that class is for all men that
01:58:59
are walking around Blenham coming home from work about to have an argument with their misses at home or
01:59:06
something's going on at home to come to the gym. Have a hit on the bag. Have a
01:59:10
hit on the pads. Let let those emotions out. Have the conversations of [ __ ] bro. Why are we blowing up? What's going
01:59:16
on in the real world? You know, come into box on have conversations. Let all your [ __ ] go on that bag and leave it
01:59:24
there. don't take it home and and stuff like that. And then find out what supports they need, get them the
01:59:30
supports they need, put them onto the right people and um and just, you know, guide them and and walk along walk
01:59:37
alongside them. You know, >> vulnerability is really hard. I I can't imagine um you know, how how difficult
01:59:45
it is and how much courage it takes some of these guys to walk through that door
01:59:48
for the first time. >> Yeah. And and some of them walk through that door and go, "Man, that fell over
01:59:52
there, man. [ __ ] [ __ ] he's throwing some mean punches and [ __ ] is skipping
01:59:57
skipping out the gate. I was like and you know all the sparring. He's like far
02:00:02
you know I can't even throw a punch. You know they say all this was said actually
02:00:06
>> he said the same thing as you just said >> you're you're you're saying exactly what
02:00:11
that fellow or that girl over there just said >> they said man that that guy over there
02:00:15
or that kid over there [ __ ] they can throw some punches. E yeah they didn't
02:00:18
know how to do that when they first come here. They said the same the same thing,
02:00:22
you know. They want to know what's behind the door. What behind the door is is the the same version as what you are
02:00:27
now, >> you know, and they've just grown and they've just shown themselves and
02:00:30
they've showed up for themselves. That's one of the hardest bits, too, man. You
02:00:34
need to show up for yourself, man. You need to show up and do it, you know. Once you get past that that bit and
02:00:41
unravel all that [ __ ] that's going on in in your world and underneath you, you
02:00:46
know, um and a lot of them are scared to make the mistake. Yeah, >> a lot of them are scared. [ __ ] I [ __ ]
02:00:52
up. I've gone back to court. I've had a beer. >> I've had a puff. You know, I'm a
02:00:57
failure. I'm I'm a piece of [ __ ] You know, no one's going to think me, hey,
02:01:02
bro, I'm going to walk with you, bro. You know, I'm going to walk with you and
02:01:06
we're going to carry on even though you made that mistake. Get you back on the
02:01:10
walker, bro. And keep going. That's like our when I started youth work there's a lot
02:01:15
of um uh cars going missing you know um people taking cars and um couple of ram raids
02:01:24
and that you know it's changed in Blenham you know okay rains first popping cars
02:01:32
um serious crime what are they going back a couple now what are you here for oh stealing what are you stealing food
02:01:40
cuz you can't survive you know, >> don't look at the negatives, too,
02:01:44
because the end of the day, yeah, when we first come to court, they finished their plans, but remember, they were on
02:01:49
um 24-hour lockdown bracelet, um popping cars, serious crime. What are they here
02:01:55
for now? Stealing food. Okay, they're back here. But look at the positives they they have made. They made the
02:02:00
changes of those, you know. So, a lot of our now off their plans and stuff. we're
02:02:07
getting a new a lot of them coming through different different um kids coming through too. So it's it's being a
02:02:15
youth work is how we change uh the way our youth are. We deal with troubled youth, gang youth, um special needs. Um
02:02:24
we got the queer group we deal with. Um we've got a debating got a debating class now which is pretty cool. But
02:02:32
working with all these different diversity of kids and everyone asked us, "How do you work with them?" I said,
02:02:37
"How do we work with them? They're humans. >> They are the same as the person beside
02:02:43
you." You know, and that's why I have mirrors in the gym. A lot of people want
02:02:46
to have mirrors and want to be, you know, want to be all flash and hey, look at me. I'm pretty
02:02:52
some do, you know. But for me, it's for the mirror and get them to stand by each
02:02:59
other and look at each other and go, "What do you see in the mirror?" Oh, I
02:03:03
see a short person. I see a fat person. I see a brown person. I see a person over there with glasses. You know, and
02:03:11
then they ask me, "What do you see?" I said, "I see a human being
02:03:18
that wants a safe place to be, but just wants to be part of something. I don't
02:03:23
see color. I don't see geek. I don't see color. I don't see um ethnic um you
02:03:29
know, race colors or anything like that. I don't see all that stuff. I see you as
02:03:33
the person beside you as a human. We've got to stop looking at the way our appearances are. We've got to stop
02:03:40
judging people on that and the way they talk and that. It's actually what comes
02:03:43
out of the heart. And when you have a a a kid that's bought up in the system to
02:03:48
a kid that's real good on the computer and that can be a nerd to have those two
02:03:52
together and have conversations on the different worlds and they collide together. You'll be surprised that the
02:03:59
person that's got everything, you know, got all these expectations to be the
02:04:03
lawyers and this and that to a kid that's been going through hard life and that that kid that's achieved so much.
02:04:10
They want a normal life and that normal life has been what the the kid that's
02:04:14
getting into trouble that's like a normal life for them you know they think it's going to be fun and stuff like that
02:04:20
but end of the day it's our kids that have got that high life don't want all
02:04:25
the pressures on >> on on achieving that you know so >> there's um there's lots of analogies
02:04:30
between boxing and life like you know you get knocked down you got to get up again uh you know all all sorts of
02:04:35
things um if your life was a a boxing fight what round would you be at How do you think?
02:04:41
>> Uh, don't know if the rounds will probably keep going for a while. You know, I've had a couple of, you
02:04:47
know, and honestly, bro, I've had, you know, I I think, you know, I I've had my
02:04:56
we have those times and people look at me and go, "Fuck, bro. You've done so
02:05:01
good for yourself. You You're at this place where nothing can happen to you.
02:05:05
Nothing can can put you back in the dark." And I really want to say that I was in the dark last year.
02:05:13
>> I [ __ ] went in the dark and I haven't really talked about this >> and um
02:05:20
you know I had an incident in my gym a couple years ago and it's real hard to
02:05:25
talk about because everyone has had their [ __ ] talk on it. Um, you know, when I had this incident, you know, it
02:05:34
was a it was a punch up in my gym and you know, it was a learning curve for me because I was away getting the tools
02:05:41
from a men's group that I need to bring back to blend. It was a trust a trust
02:05:45
thing. And um, for people to sit there and say you can donate, you knew it was there. You knew
02:05:52
it was [ __ ] happening. You organized it. You were behind the camera. This and that. They didn't look at the positives
02:05:58
on it. Yeah. Okay. It was gang related, but I never shut the door, you know. They have apologized,
02:06:06
you know, and it's something that I I've been wanting to talk to for a while. And
02:06:10
um when you go through those dark times where everyone when that happens, everyone wants to jump all over you.
02:06:18
>> Everyone wants to just go, "Yeah, [ __ ] We got him." You know, he's not doing
02:06:22
good. He's not doing the good things. Yeah. What I'm doing is that door's open
02:06:26
for everyone. >> I don't care what background it was a trust issue. It was a learning. And one
02:06:32
of those things that they come to me and they apologized and to this day they still apologize.
02:06:37
>> They still say and I still have their kids coming and I watch them and I see
02:06:41
them and the stuff that they are doing now for themselves, you know, is is I see man as a change in
02:06:50
the way they are. They they still do their their club stuff, but I see the positive. I see the the healing wings
02:06:57
that they do. And I still had their kids come into my gym and I still work with their kids. You know, a video did come
02:07:05
out and for me at that time, you know, I had a lot of pressure on me and I, you know, when media come and
02:07:14
attack you and just make up their own [ __ ] story. you know, they needed to know the truth that I wasn't involved
02:07:20
with it. It was a learning thing. But what it was is that you [ __ ] put that out. It's the kids that we deal with
02:07:28
that are going to see it. I wanted and and some of those people that were in it, they all had good jobs. You know, it
02:07:35
was that moment where people were, "Ah, [ __ ] them anyway. Don't don't worry
02:07:38
about it." No, I I tried my hardest to stop them from coming out because I knew
02:07:46
that um they've got families and that as well, you know, and stuff like that. And
02:07:52
it it was real hard. Last year was a real real quiet year for me. But I had to I front footed it. I still in the
02:08:01
community people just ask me the the questions on on that. Oh, were you there? Did you know? And I was like,
02:08:06
man, if you guys just come to me first and asked me said, if I can hear all the rumors and that, I would have told you,
02:08:12
>> you know. >> Oh, what was it exactly? It just >> it was just a it was a it was a punchup.
02:08:17
>> And people listening to this go, what's a boxing joke? >> It's a box. And that's the thing like
02:08:22
the the article come out and it backfired on and it was and it was real hard because it was all about
02:08:29
um who who who wanted to bring it out to wanted to to to to make me look bad. It
02:08:37
was just the opportunity, you know, okay, another boxing gym out of BLM going to close, you know, need your
02:08:43
doors closed so they can get all the benefits, they can get all the all the stuff. And it was a it was a jealousy
02:08:50
thing, you know, when people come to to me and and and tell me that, hey, certain people are trying to make a
02:08:56
story off on that article that come out. Um, they want they they they want you closed down. They, you know, and that's
02:09:04
that tall poppy syndrome, >> you know. We we got to learn about tall popper syndrome when we're doing so
02:09:08
good. There's those people that want to bring you down, you know, because they
02:09:12
try to set those those things as well. And it was real hard because everyone got on top of it and and and we
02:09:19
forwarded and we went we done the procedures and stuff like that and um people just making their own stories and
02:09:25
for me the best thing is that I still had all my sponsors behind me. you know, I had I fixed all my policies up. You
02:09:33
know, I I had all those people that believed in me and said to me and knew that that wasn't my fault. It was a
02:09:39
learning thing and I've learned from it. But the doors aren't closed. My doors
02:09:44
are still open to any walk of life that want to come through. And that for me, honestly, if there was another gym in
02:09:50
Blenham, they probably wouldn't have gone got through this, you know, but I needed to show them that, you know, I'm
02:09:56
still going to show up for our community. I'm going to still be a voice and let people know the truth about what
02:10:02
happened in that gym, you know, and still let those people and work with those people to come in that gym, you
02:10:07
know. So, like I say, my whole board's changed now. You know, the police officer like he's cool like he works
02:10:14
with our youth and to have him on my board is a massive thing for me. I've always had that thing against police
02:10:21
officers and that >> but because I'm dealing with people, I had to change my life.
02:10:25
>> Yeah. and to have him there, he had to go right to the top, you know, to have
02:10:31
that in in my gym is is a massive achievement for me and and the board members that I have. So, we talk about
02:10:38
going through those bad times. I got it last year, but I didn't give up and I
02:10:44
didn't go into the dark place. You know, I had the right people around me to
02:10:48
watch me and say, "Hey, bro, are you okay?" I had brothers reaching out and
02:10:52
saying, "Bro, you're okay?" I said, "Yeah, I'm okay." And those chickens,
02:10:56
bro, that's all all we're looking for is chickens. >> Yeah. >> You know, so that was that was my my
02:11:02
time. And um and things are things are um like things are going good now, you know, got a lot of
02:11:10
people behind us. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, um adversity is never nice when you're going through it,
02:11:14
but everyone is going to go through it at some point. But one >> silver lining to adversity is um you
02:11:20
definitely find out who your real friends are. um you know the Maxine Sweenies of the world and you find out
02:11:26
who who is not there for you and doesn't have your back with good intentions
02:11:29
>> and that's and that's family as well you know >> people you know obviously people want to
02:11:34
show >> you know the the video or whatever it was that they wanted to show but they
02:11:38
didn't come to me >> you know instead they just pointing things to go yeah you done that we're
02:11:43
doing the same [ __ ] you know but I know I know what happens when you when when
02:11:49
you deal with these sort of people you know but we Don't leave them behind. I'm
02:11:52
not shutting the door, you know. And the positive of that that most those those fellows that were in there, they are
02:12:00
doing they are doing good things. People like the [ __ ] gang members, they ain't doing they ain't doing jack [ __ ]
02:12:04
Well, they are because I'm watching. I can see them. And every time I see them,
02:12:08
they're always saying, "Hey, bro, you know, still sorry about" and it's like,
02:12:12
"It's all good." You know, it's past and and it's going to pop up now and then,
02:12:17
but that's poppy syndrome for you when people do that. Hey, >> I I we're we're sort of getting to the
02:12:23
point we're wrapping up the podcast and you you you brought this up and you've
02:12:26
talked about this for quite a while. So clearly it's had a huge impact on you. I
02:12:29
did quite a bit of research. I didn't come was this a big local story. >> No, it was through the through the
02:12:34
Herald and that. Yeah. But it's gone now. Like it'll pop up. But the thing is
02:12:37
I needed to talk about it. You know, I need to let people know that, you know, when we're doing the stuff that we're in
02:12:45
that and the people we deal with, you know, sometimes that's going to happen,
02:12:49
especially in the boxing world. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's a lot going on, you
02:12:53
know, in the boxing world, but I'm but for me, I keep myself accountable, you
02:12:58
know, and I put the right policies and procedure. I got the right people around me now so it doesn't happen. But end of
02:13:05
the day, I'm here and I'm not shutting the door, >> you I'm not going to shut the door and
02:13:09
say no none of you followers can come and you know I've got all different walks of life coming in the gym now man
02:13:14
I've got you know people on bracelets ex gang members gang members you know that
02:13:19
want to come in there and and and play you wouldn't even know that they are you
02:13:22
know police officers lawyers I've got everyone coming to my gym you know when
02:13:27
you mix them all together we're not there to judge this one reason why they're there for you know and that's
02:13:32
just to have a good head out and let some let some [ __ ] out on the bags and that and and have conversations in there
02:13:38
as well, you know. >> Are you happy today? Is today a good day? >> Today is a good day except for uh except
02:13:46
for the rental. >> When do you think when can you can you pinpoint when you've been your happiest
02:13:53
in life? >> Um Oh, [ __ ] There's so many, you know, honestly, bro, there's so many,
02:14:00
>> you know. I'm just happy on my life, bro. I'm happy I'm breathing. I know
02:14:04
when I have a [ __ ] day that the next day is going to be a new day. >> And I know that the next day is going to
02:14:12
be different, you know. Um, and just to know that we are making changes, you know, I'm making changes in our
02:14:22
community, you know, I know that I can um, yeah, you know, I am happy, you know,
02:14:31
you know, I'm that person now, man, that um, for me a purpose for me is a youth
02:14:38
worker, >> a mentor. Uh Maxi doesn't like me using mentor, so I'm going to change that. But a youth
02:14:46
worker, a youth worker, a a voice, e a voice and a change maker for our for our brothers out there. You know, I've had a
02:14:54
few wahi reach out to me and say, "Hey, you need to start this up." And I said,
02:14:58
"Oo, no, no disrespect for a male to come into that space and and do that stuff, you know, have all
02:15:06
that. It's it's not my place to do that, you know, because they have different
02:15:10
emotions and they have different things going on in their lives. So, you know, it's one of those things where
02:15:16
I know, you know, a lot of wahini around New Zealand are doing things. So, I usually just pass them on to the, you
02:15:21
know, most of these most of us just chat groups. I mean, just checking in, making
02:15:24
sure, hey, I've had, you know, my kakongani has a chat group where we want to check, we want to tap in and and just
02:15:31
say, hey, bro, are you all right? And stuff like that. And there's a lot of men's groups happening around New
02:15:36
Zealand too. And you know hopefully there's more more opening up as well. And and those men's group all walks of
02:15:43
life you know we can sit there and and say oh it's only for the week but it's
02:15:47
not. It's for everyone that wants to open up and just have that space where you know and a lot of club members and
02:15:53
gang members are doing it too. I can see I see what they're doing you know and to
02:15:58
watch them making change like we say they are making changes. Some of them I'm not going to change, but hey, that's
02:16:04
that's life. But I I do see it and um from my from my little incident I had at
02:16:09
the gym, man, those brothers there have are changed and they are changing and making some positive moves and um it's
02:16:17
real good to see. >> Are you proud of yourself? >> Yeah, I'm proud of myself, man. You
02:16:22
know, I'm proud of where I'm at today. I'm proud of who I am. Um, you know,
02:16:30
I've, you know, I've found that inner boy on who I am. I'm enjoying life. You
02:16:37
know, I'm definitely proud. M >> you know I um sometimes I'm a little bit
02:16:42
hard on myself and you know don't take credit for what I do but end of the day
02:16:48
I just look at it as you know I'm just here to toy and help others >> to make changes in their lives but be
02:16:55
there to listen listen as well and see where I can help and support them you know and stuff like that. So, um, it's,
02:17:03
yeah, it's been a ride. I've met some real cool people on my journey, bro.
02:17:08
Like, you know, um, I'm still me, though. I don't I'm I'm not out there
02:17:13
after the follows, the likes, um, this and that. Um, you know, I just want to be like some of the other brothers and
02:17:20
and and be a change maker in in our community and and be a voice for. So, yeah. No, I am proud, bro, and I love
02:17:28
who I am as a person. um and look look inside myself and say actually you know I love you bro I love
02:17:38
you Lee you've done good so yeah >> Lee Tapua thank you for coming on my
02:17:45
podcast >> thanks man thanks for having us bro it's it's real privilege to you come in here
02:17:50
and um just do this and open up a bit a little bit more of my journey and you know a couple of things that I've opened
02:17:57
up I haven't really talked But I but I but I needed to and um I think if I want
02:18:03
to move forward this is the moment for me to to do that to move on and and make those changes more changes in in my
02:18:12
life. So like I said bro that incident and talking about the drugs and that that's been a big thing for me you know
02:18:19
to open up and and stuff like that. So but yeah thanks for having us having us on Dom and yeah really enjoyed it.
02:18:26
>> I appreciate you sharing Lee. It's been really nice to meet you, mate.
02:18:29
>> Cool. Yeah. Awesome, bro. Thank you, bro.