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Jay Poke Poke, welcome to my podcast. >> Thanks, mate. Kind of good to be here.
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Yeah. >> Is it you are you nervous? Are you anxious? Are you How you feeling?
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>> Yeah, all of that. >> Yep. >> Yep. All of that. Uh don't do too much
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talking. So, um it's all new and I'm actually interested to see hear the
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questions and see how I respond. So, yeah. >> Yeah. So am I. So, um there's a couple
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of things that we should front foot it with. Um brand new book out, a memoir called Inner Warrior.
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>> Mhm. >> Yeah. I I love the name. Um there's so many layers to that. Um why was that the
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title that you settled on? >> Uh I actually did a talk a TED talk um long time ago and in a warrior came from
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a theme I actually stole off Steve Harvey, the comedian guy. Uh he's talking about
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uh if you want your parachute to open, you got to jump off a cliff. Talking about potential.
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Um which is a word I hate, but I kind of ran with that theme with myself and my and my change and and it kind of worked
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with being a you know being in the warriors at some stage. So it wasn't about um actually a physical warrior. It
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was more of a internal warrior which was the you know the biggest fight for me. So it kind of just made sense and
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>> and everyone liked it. So yeah that's where we were. >> That's how we landed.
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>> Why do you hate the word potential? >> Oh cuz you know it's it's like um you
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always hear it, oh he's got potential. It's like what do you mean he's got
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potential? He still he still has potential. you just uh yeah, I talked a little bit about that in the in the in
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the TED talk around, you know, all the potentials in the graveyard because people never acted on on on their ideas.
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>> Um it's just it just grew on me as something I didn't like the word
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potential and people say it as a um in hindsight, you know, oh, he had good potential, he could have been this, he
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could have been that. So, well, you still can >> just in something else maybe. That's
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just my little thing anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I suppose that's something you've heard a lot. People
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would say um in particular with your um Yeah. I suppose like teenage years, they
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say you had a lot of potential and you sort of threw it all away. >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. Does it sting a bit? >> Yeah. Oh, it stung for 10 years. >> And I uh Yeah. I think back to what I
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could have, should have, didn't >> and and where my mind is at now and what
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could have been. But actually where I am now is I wouldn't want to be anywhere
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else. >> It's um kind of worked out better than potentially how I could have
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been >> potential. It's been a a a hell of a a hell of a journey and a process uh to to become
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the man you are today that's sitting in front of me. And um Bros for Change,
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that's the other thing you're involved with. How do you how do you explain
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that? What's the elevator pitch for Bros for Change? >> Well, it was it was a really um
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inspiring way we came about that that name actually is uh me and the bro and we wanted to make change.
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So, so we were just two bros and we wanted to make change and we didn't want to complicate it and we're
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just two bros wanted to make change. So, there's the >> So, you settled on the name. No, no, but
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what does it name aside? What does it what does it mean and what do you do? >> Yeah. So actually uh it came about cuz
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we both worked in um in a in a system a a system that you know 9 to5 babysitting
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doing all these things. Um and that was okay at start because at the start cuz I volunteered volunteered
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my time. I wanted to give back uh all all what I had. And then so yeah, we did that. And then once I sort of learned
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how it all works, I thought, man, I've got I've got more than I can that I want
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to give that I'm allowed to give. So So that didn't really work for me. Um I
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found myself just being kind of uh caged off in an area had you're allowed to do
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this and this and this and don't let them do that that that. And and to me that wasn't really that wasn't helping.
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that was just glorified babysitters. >> So, um me and the Brew Tiki Koopinger,
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we um he was there also. We s we kind of did some offsite uh peer supervision with ourselves and and some southern
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comfort at the time. And uh you know for about four years we just talked you know
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what would we do how do we do it what do we have what can we offer what can we take from what we've learned
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and um add value and and actually help. We don't want to put plasters on cuz
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they come off in a few days. We want to actually real real change you know. So that's what bro change is. It's not just
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a um >> you know a start date and a finish date contract. So you're you're building a
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relationship for a lifetime. >> It's uh Yeah. >> So who who are the bros that you're
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changing? >> Anyone? >> Um at the moment we kind of contracted with um the government to work with um
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that that are so-called needs which is not employed in enrolled or in training. Um but we take anyone from this
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particular program we call team of tong-o fresh start. We work with anyone from uh turning 15 that year to up to
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24. >> Um also other than that we work with anyone one-on-one who man anyone. When I say anyone, could be
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um in a single parent home, could be in a gang family, could be uh lacking confidence,
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uh school's not working for them. You know, there's no there's no exact type.
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It's a range of of different um different things where they might come into contact with us,
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>> right? So, so you're getting young people and you're basically um you're
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warning them about potholes along the road that you've learned from your own
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journey in life. >> Yeah, that Yep. Part of it we do we call that reality therapy. You know, the the
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therapy is your reality. >> So, uh it's all self-referred. Uh we don't we don't take referrals or or or
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court court sentence to to do our program because then they're not there because they want it. They're there
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because someone told them to do it. >> Yeah. They're ticking boxes. That's
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right. Yeah. So, we um we we might get 30 odd registrations for a cohort and we can only take for our capacity up to 14.
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>> So, we have to like interview everyone and and then sort of decide who who's the best fit, who's going to
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benefit the most, who really needs this the most. And it's only it's only based
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off our assessment, but you know, we we get it wrong as well. M but >> yeah,
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>> that's the world, isn't it? >> Well, thanks for that um explanation. I
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think that sets the platform for the podcast. Um you're a good dude and you're doing some great stuff in the
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community. So, you got this amazing book and a warrior and um you spend your days
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um changing lives for the better with Bros for Change. So, now we can um start painting a picture of the the Jay story,
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the good, the bad, and the ugly. And there's plenty of each, right? >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. So, what are your earliest memories um of growing up as a a kid in
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Christ Church? Oh, >> I actually grew up in Oakuckland. Uh and I moved to Christ Church to get away
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from everyone. >> Oh, okay. Yes. So, I moved to Christ Church in 2009 maybe, but I grew up in West Oakland. Um
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quite transient. Uh my earliest memories are chasing my sister to school. I wasn't
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five. Uh she was going to school and I used to chase her to school in in Tatoo Peninsula. M
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>> um other than that uh moving to fielding with my mother and um bunking school at that age and and
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running up the river and building huts and and uh getting into trouble and mischief.
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>> Those are my earliest uh childhood memories and sort of not really seeing
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my dad much just when he'd come for visits or or would would go up north. Um yeah, moved around the family, uncles
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and aunties and distant uncles and grapevine uncles and around the country. >> Fang, Christ Church,
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uh Palmyston, Oakland. >> Uh not really settled many different schools. Never really settled in school.
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Uh went to Rutherford and Calston, Calston boys. Uh back when uh what's an old mate? Um All Black Coach was the
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principal there. Uh Graham Henry. Yeah. Yeah. Dead. >> Yep. Um so yeah, quite a quite a um transient
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kind of childhood. I uh no matter where I was though, I remember always finding um the league training and the league
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field >> late everywhere except for training. >> Yeah. So when you reflect on um on your
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childhood, Yeah. How would you describe it? >> Is it good memories? >> Fun. Yeah. Okay.
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>> Um, adventurous. >> Um, >> yeah, always fun. It was always fun. Um,
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got to hang out with all my cousins and moved around the country and was always looked after. You know, there's there's
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no reasons for me to go off the rails. >> So, you had a good start in life.
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>> Great start. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Had mom and dad, had um never
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hungry, had um didn't really have any friends. had a had a couple of dogs that I used to hang
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out with. >> You're just a loner. >> I was a bit of a loner. >> Quite quite a loner. My kind of fun I
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unofficially to my grandmother. So So she wasn't too mobile. I was I was too
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mobile. So we kind we kind of worked out there. Um yeah, she she brought me out for a
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few years. So that was it was awesome. >> Yeah. And what was your um relationship
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like growing up with your mold culture? uh kind of like pushed it away. Yeah, >> she was very strong uh her and my
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grandfather uh very strong um in the community in in T moldi and tadil and I just had no bar of it u for no reason no
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reason whatsoever. I just just wasn't relative to me at at that time. why it just wasn't
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um yeah it just you know other things were it's the same reason you know why
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didn't I go to school why didn't I stay at home >> yeah there was no really particular
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reason um I really regret not taking advantage of that now I wish I did cuz now now it's three times as hard to to
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get what I could have grown up with >> hindsight's a wonderful thing though you
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can't you just can't live with too much regret. There's no point. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's
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>> a waste of waste of energy. So, you you mentioned um league before. Yeah. And
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you were really good, right? Like you were um in the uh Warriors under 19 like New Zealand age group teams. Who who are
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some of the you know the teammates or the people you played with that went on to become household names?
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>> Oh, household names. Uh Monty Betham, uh Aliti. Um, it was that era, you know, Henry
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Farfilly, Francis Melly, Clinton Torpi, we were like under 13s, Oakland age grade. Um,
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it was that era. It was um, it was I I I always say it was when league was great,
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>> but it was it was a golden era. >> Yeah. You could still shoulder charge.
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Uh, um, it was really tough. I was um I was I was physical but but my mind wasn't
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wasn't in it at the time. Uh so yeah, that was the the the downside of not going to school was I I
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lost sort of um uh my social cues and um yeah, socializing with people. I wasn't really
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too good at >> I still was still a bit awkward around socializing. I prefer to sort of drift
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into the background or I feel more comfortable hanging out with with the theangut at work, you know, being a big
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a big kid. Um but yeah, you know, watching those guys, um from there, Odell Emanuel,
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um Kylie Ludai go and do great, you know, become legends of the game. This was really inspiring and uh
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>> kind of made me, you know, regret again my decisions. But back then when I was
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watching it, I was like, "Oh man, you know, I could have, should have, didn't." But but but now I understand.
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And well over it. Well over it. But took a bit, you know, I was very sour and bitter at myself for a long time.
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>> Yeah. No [ __ ] I can I can I can I can see how you would. Yeah. I mean, you
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don't hold anything against those guys for their success, but you just beat yourself up uh for throwing away this
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incredible opportunity. is I mean hypotheticals are they're difficult things and they are kind of a waste of
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time but is it fair to say you would have you made the NRL? >> Um it's hard to say. I did have I did
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have some contracts um or when I got out actually when I got out of u my indoor experience
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>> I had Is that what we're calling it? >> Yeah. Well, a lot of people do OE. I do
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I >> it's similar. I mean, you travel the country, >> you you meet like-minded people.
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>> It's making jail sound kind of sexy and all right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. So, okay.
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>> So, you were that good. >> So, what why did you start It's quite
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funny. Yeah. Why did you start going off the rails? Yeah. Uh, like I said, I was um I was
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very quiet growing up and and and a loner and didn't really have any schooling by my choice. I'd, you know,
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get dropped off or taken to school and then walk out. Um, for whatever reason, didn't cope there.
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Um, and that followed on to, you know, I was obviously big and physical. Um but my mind wasn't able to cope with that.
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You know that was a >> when I think back to those times we go to training we get all these gears and
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you know S Panipo was doing all these trainings and these supplements and it was sometimes you know twice a day and
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then uh jump on the plane and fly to Australia. It was a very very very different
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environment from how I grew up and what I knew. >> And uh it was the 19s at the time. I was
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still 16. >> Um Wow. >> Yeah. So >> So you're 16 when you're playing with um
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like you guys that are 18 almost 19. >> Yeah. And they were they were big strong
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guys. >> That's Yeah. At that age that's a big size difference. >> Yeah. Yeah. I that's what I mean. I was
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um I hadn't grown into my body yet >> and the problem came when I figured out
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how big I was and how strong I was. >> Um and and I use that as my voice rather
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than talking. >> Um so that became uh both a savior and an issue. >> Yeah. I I'm just struggling to see um
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how you end up getting in so much trouble when you had so much promise and so much good stuff going on like you you
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had this tribe with you know teammates and these opportunities. So when when did you start going off the rails?
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>> Uh was it just a crew you were hanging out with? >> Well to be fair I I was stealing and
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doing petty things from a really young age like single digit. I can't remember exactly. I'm not
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going to say five because it's probably a bit older. But, you know, before I was
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10, I was stealing. I was stealing off my family. I was stealing from shops. I was um I was fighting. I was staying
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out. You know, I kind of had no boundaries. >> Um that was a bit of a there was a
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thrill thrill to me that kind of like >> rebellious. >> Yeah. I don't even know what I was
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rebelling against, you know? I think it just appealed to me more than the other >> being good.
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>> Yeah. Um so you know that just escalated over time and it went went on to like um
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I'd go out you know you know you ever hear of that that one friend who always
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gets into fights >> and then that well that was me. I'd go out and I'd be like man why are these
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why why do I always get into fights? Well well it was me. Um, so I was that guy and and you know I figured out later
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that people never took me anywhere because I'd just get into a fight. You know I was that guy. Um that you know
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getting into fights, fighting in public um uh doing things where the police would
00:18:00
be called and then you know assaulting police would would get me locked up and and to court and into uh what do they
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call it? Uh working for the working for the community. So, I've been serving the community for
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years. You jump in the van, you got your trailer and your wheelbarrows and and you go off and,
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>> you know, you you're you're in a van with like-minded people, >> you know, and and you make connections
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and uh if you're thinking the same, then you know, it's easy to build friendships
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and and from there you you you go to other places or you learn things and and everything just ex escalates until
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you know you do something very serious like like what I did. because it seems like there's a lot of
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like you talk about getting in fights there and you know getting getting locked up and going to court for a lot
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of people that would be that would potentially be the rock bottom or you know the turning point but you just had
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to sort of keep on going didn't you? >> Yeah. Yeah. And I and and when I think
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back if I didn't get caught >> I would have kept going. >> So I'm really glad that I did get
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caught. >> Um >> that's right. Normally people stop when they get arrested, they go to court,
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they get sentenced to uh home D or pay a fine or or or whatever it is. They're
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like, "Okay, I'm going to change my life." >> But but for me, it was like,
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"Okay, what? Now what? Oh, do that." You know, just keeps escalating until
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>> you're a slow learner. >> Yeah. >> Just enjoy it. >> Well,
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>> combination. >> Yeah. you know, like I was I was transient, you know, I wasn't settled.
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>> You're lost. >> Yeah. I had no identity. I I turned away from it. I wasn't settled. I had no
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home. I had plenty of homes, but no home. No homestead. >> Um I was a loner. Um this side this side
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of the the railway tracks um became like a family. you know, I'd meet people, we would think the same, we
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would connect, and off we would go. So, >> um, makes sense to me. >> If you, if you haven't done it, it it it
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it's probably hard to to fathom, you know, why why keep continuing. Um, which
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I get. >> Um, >> and no, no, no, no judgment. I'm just trying to I'm trying to understand. Um,
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>> yeah. Um, I mean, we've only been going for like 20 minutes, but um, yeah, I
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mean, you're a really good speaker and you're funny and you're articulate. Um,
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yeah, I'm guessing it hasn't always been like this and it's taken a while to to
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get to this point. >> Yeah. Well, part of my work is talking about it. And talking about it actually
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led me to the book, you know, so it hasn't been anything I've shied away
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from >> getting out of prison. At first, it was um, >> hide away. I've been in prison.
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>> Yeah. Shame. >> Shame. Yeah. 100%. Shame on me. Shame on my family. Shame on the victims. Um but
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but now I've come to a point where it's actually my strength. You know, I call
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on those things to um not only keep me here, but bring others in and and and give back my
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experiences and and bros for change. The key of it is, you know, I did it hard to
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hopefully use gun can do it easy. Um, learn from me or or not. >> Up to you.
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>> But this is where it's going to end if you don't learn from me.
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>> Yeah. At least I can say, "Well, yeah, you could do that, but this is what will
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happen." And they're like, "No, I'll be all right. You went to prison and you're
00:21:42
all right." I said, "Yeah, but you're not me. You know, you got to do your own
00:21:44
yards." >> Yeah. Yeah. Also, I mean, it's better to not be in prison than be in prison,
00:21:50
right? >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, do you remember your your first
00:21:53
armed robbery? >> Yes. >> Yeah. What was it? It's like service station in Mount Roscoll or something.
00:21:57
>> Yep. Yep. I remember it. Um, >> how old were you? >> Probably 19. 19. Um,
00:22:04
>> so this is when you were playing really good league. >> Yeah, I actually um I actually was
00:22:10
playing really good league and then I just gave it up and started fighting. Um, I don't even know why. I know why. It
00:22:18
was probably cuz I was just with that crowd who were fighting. Um, >> so I started training as a fighter which
00:22:26
took me away from league. um which is a shame which kind of led me down other paths.
00:22:34
>> Um yeah, I remember that night I remember um just saying out loud, "Oh,
00:22:40
we should rob we should rob a uh petrol station, whatever." And then uh guys guys who I was with, could have
00:22:51
been two, could have been five guys, can't remember. Um they they kind of like
00:22:57
like, "Haha, that'll be cool. Haha." But then saying it out loud actually made it
00:23:01
real. And then um yeah, I actually planned it. I was like, "Oh, why don't we just try and do this
00:23:09
one and just uh get money and smokes and um it was really it was really pre-planned like how we would go in,
00:23:22
which ways we could run to, where we would park the car." Um for me, I was like, "Yeah, quite
00:23:31
detailed and and all of that." And then I remember lying in the bushes looking
00:23:36
at it and looking and I could see up and down the road. It was, you know, it was
00:23:41
dark at night. I could see up and down the road and you could see cars, lights, and you could see clearly the the
00:23:49
service station. And I remember having a few false starts like trying to get up the courage to
00:23:55
actually run in there. And it took me three or four goes and then, you know, a car would come or someone would pull in
00:24:04
and then there was just a moment of silence. No cars, no nothing. And then I just got up and ran in. Um,
00:24:13
and just just the rush of adrenaline uh that I got from it, I think, is what fueled me to do it again to to find that
00:24:25
feeling again. What did you what did you get from it in terms of um like smokes or money?
00:24:30
>> Yeah, smokes and money. >> How much? Do you not know how much or >> what whatever was in the tool which
00:24:35
wasn't much and you know try and clear out all the all the cigarettes and and
00:24:41
all that which we would >> sell on for for more money later. >> But >> what did you want the money for? Did you
00:24:48
have addiction issues at the time or? >> No, never really did. I tried tried
00:24:53
every drug a couple of times uh but never really stayed on anything. >> Yeah.
00:24:57
>> Uh all of these crimes I was um sober sober and drug free. It was um my drug
00:25:04
was the adrenaline, you know. Um >> still today I have that addiction to adrenaline. I just do other things
00:25:10
instead. But >> yeah, it wasn't even money at the We wanted to get money and things, but we
00:25:19
wanted the thrill >> and we got the thrill and that and that fed us to do another one.
00:25:24
>> So, who went into that first one? Was it just you that ran into the into the
00:25:27
survey? >> Uh, we all did. >> Yeah, >> we all did. >> And can you remember who who was
00:25:31
working? Um, like a guy or a girl? >> It was a guy. What sort of age? >> It was a guy. He was um middleaged. Um,
00:25:41
>> what do you say? What do you say when you run in? >> Be intimidating as [ __ ]
00:25:46
>> I can't imag I'd [ __ ] piss myself, I reckon. >> Yeah, I think it's I think I think the
00:25:53
dangerous part of us was the recklessness. And uh when I look at other crimes that have
00:26:01
happened that have ended quite differently, >> it was the same scenario for us. We
00:26:07
never mean to hurt anyone or cause. We don't know. I didn't know at the time
00:26:15
>> the >> the stress or the from not actually touching someone, just us running in
00:26:21
there bac with a gun uh and demanding everything they had. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that I suppose they're
00:26:31
considered like nonviolent crimes, but um yeah, you're you're the villain and
00:26:37
and other people's story and uh you probably remain that way for life. Like [ __ ] I can't imagine how scary that
00:26:42
would be for those people >> just doing their job. >> Yep. And it took me years to understand
00:26:48
>> who the real victims were. um you know even going to prison and people who
00:26:55
visit me you know how hard how hard it is for them to to come and and visit. So yeah know everywhere it's just a
00:27:04
a trail of bodies. >> I use bodies cuz it's easy to see victims when you like
00:27:10
>> create carnage and everyone's lying down behind you you know um in different
00:27:14
ways. >> Yeah. The psychological scarring. So you end up doing um a total of 15 armed
00:27:19
robberies. all like that first one. >> Yeah, it's uh pretty much. >> Yep.
00:27:24
>> Yep. Um we got I feel like we got better and more efficient and then we got the
00:27:33
novelty ran off wore off and we got we we didn't get as we had to keep upping
00:27:40
it to to get the same uh adrenaline. Um which was the the dangerous part. you know, we were thinking about other
00:27:49
things as well. So, >> other things like >> bigger targets. >> Okay.
00:27:54
>> Yeah. More money. Um >> higher stakes. >> Higher stakes, higher thrills, higher
00:27:59
risks. Um yeah, higher conse consequences. Um that's what that's what I mean. I'm glad
00:28:07
I got caught because um >> yeah, that was just the time >> in a in a in a sense in a in a weird
00:28:17
twisted sort of way. It's almost like this this became your new sport. E >> 100%.
00:28:22
>> Yeah, it had everything. It had everything and more I would get out of it. Um including
00:28:28
>> a team. >> Yeah. >> Your little team. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes individual,
00:28:32
sometimes a team. >> And we all had positions. Did you have a coach? You didn't have a
00:28:39
coach. >> Oh, we had uh we had uh team supervision. >> Yeah, >> we had peer support.
00:28:44
>> So, did you um >> So, you didn't get caught. You did 15 before you got caught.
00:28:51
>> Uh yeah. And we were actually uh we actually dopped in um cuz I was with someone and
00:29:01
I had a I had a gun on me at the time. We're in a taxi and I I was going to pull the taxi up, you know, and they
00:29:08
were like they were in the they were in it was a van. They were in the taxi. They're like and I got dobbed in on my
00:29:14
alias >> which at the time was Seymour and I actually saw a statement saying Seymour
00:29:18
and I kind of rounded it off to a few people but it's good. >> I'm glad they did. Uh and from that led
00:29:27
to, you know, an investigation which led them to me. Um which is also good. >> Yeah. Cuz I was escalating.
00:29:38
Yep. >> So did um So were all your co-offenders arrested at the same time?
00:29:44
>> Um potentially. I did see I did see um a few guys throughout my uh IE around New
00:29:53
Zealand. Um, >> what's internal inside experience? >> Indoor experience.
00:29:59
>> Yeah. >> Do you do you um do you do you call it that like because it's funny or just cuz
00:30:06
it like saying prison or jail is just more embarrassing or harder to say or >> I think all of that and I think it's a
00:30:12
way to um um cuz you know I'll say I'll say something to someone and they'll be like but if I
00:30:20
say it in a way where it's uh it's kind of non-threatening. I don't know. What
00:30:24
do you think? >> It's cute. >> Exactly. So, it's more It's kind of more
00:30:28
approachable. It obviously wasn't like that. It's just It's just what I say,
00:30:32
you know. It's um >> Yeah, I'm still a big kid. >> So, so the moment you get arrested, is
00:30:38
is that a dramatic thing? Um, I remember talking with my cousin actually two months ago about it and I
00:30:48
still can't you can't I I kind of black out in a part of it because it's all kind of
00:30:55
surreal. Uh there was armed defenders up in the trees and stuff and oh this is serious surrounding the house and I'm
00:31:02
just I'm just sitting at the window and um this my cousin's telling me this
00:31:07
actually because it's a lady they know came up the drive and she wasn't like
00:31:14
it's the police it was like killano uh it's blah blah blah which was a more friendly
00:31:24
>> because obviously they didn't know who I and I'm running around um
00:31:28
>> running around with a gun >> doing armed robberies. So, they're like,
00:31:31
"Hey, we need to take all precautions, I'm guessing." >> Um but once they once they came in and sort
00:31:38
of went through the house and and and found what they found and took me in, um you know, the gigs up. I didn't I
00:31:47
didn't fight anything. I didn't um struggle or try and run away. I just went through the process and and I was
00:31:55
ready for my IE. >> But what's what's that? So, you're how old at this time? Like 20?
00:32:02
>> Uh 19 or something? >> I think I just turned 20. Uh >> yep. I was 20 and a half cuz I went
00:32:08
straight to men's. >> Uh which was 20 at the time. >> What's that like? Um that moment
00:32:13
immediately going from um you having your freedom to losing it. I'll tell you, it's a it's a funny story
00:32:20
to me, but I remember this was a Friday and I had this bottle of Kuruba rum sitting on my shelf and I was like,
00:32:27
"Yeah, I can't wait to sink into that tonight." And when they arrested me and
00:32:31
took me took me to the S, I was like I was like, "Damn, I really wanted to drink that rum."
00:32:38
>> That Yeah, it's quite that that's quite funny, but it also says a lot about, you
00:32:41
know, just your head space at the time. >> That's what I say. It's like that's just
00:32:45
where I was at, you know, and um >> when I think about it now, I'm like what
00:32:49
a [ __ ] [ __ ] Sorry. But you know, >> it's it's podcasting. >> And I was just like, man, what are you
00:32:55
what are you up to? >> But that's why I did all the things I did. That's where I was at. That's where the
00:33:01
mind was. But um >> but yeah, you know, I went for the process, got they took me to um Ponibby
00:33:08
Road to the um medical center to get um tested bloods and and all that. And then I wasn't handcuffed either. I was
00:33:17
just kind of just kind of strolling cops behind me. I think they were mufty. And
00:33:22
then they took me to Oakland Central and uh locked me up. And I remember the next
00:33:27
morning quite clearly cuz um in the morning they put you all in the um like a big day room.
00:33:34
Um and they they they open the door and they they back the the van up for court or the bus or
00:33:42
>> Conro, whatever they call it. >> And you line up and you walk on and
00:33:46
there's big there's big island cop there standing standing at the door with a
00:33:50
list. And as people are going on, it's like name. Oh yeah, you'll get bail. Next one.
00:33:56
Name. Yeah, good judge on. You might you might go to prison. And then I remember
00:34:01
I walking up. He's like, pie, you're definitely going to jail. >> Oh, cuz he's in the charge robberies.
00:34:10
Yeah. >> Wow. >> So, I thought that was um >> I I'd accepted it like, you know, I had
00:34:16
all night to kind of prepare myself not even knowing what I'm preparing for, you
00:34:22
know. M. >> So are you in remand before you before you you caught stuff or are you just
00:34:28
caught >> guilty straight to >> Yeah, I went to um back then it was ACP
00:34:34
Oakland Central Remar Prison which is next to Mount Eden. It was back then it was this nice new flash toy, right?
00:34:41
>> Oh, that's the one that's right uh right on the side of the motorway next to
00:34:43
Oakland Grammar. >> Is that the one? >> When you go down Lauder Road and you got
00:34:48
the castle at the back, uh this is the first one, >> right? You go past that into
00:34:53
>> I went there yesterday >> just have a look. Um >> what for?
00:34:59
>> I had I had my kids I actually told I actually took my kids took my kids to
00:35:02
Parmo >> and I told them I said this where you go when you're naughty and they were like
00:35:08
you know asking me heaps of questions. >> So I never hide from it. just be honest
00:35:12
with it and and and tell him >> I didn't tell him what I did but you know I was dad was naughty and
00:35:19
>> this is where you end up. >> Did Did you spend time in Pim Perime?
00:35:24
>> Yeah, I was in Maxi, >> right? Were you? >> Yep. >> Um the second time I went in,
00:35:28
>> right? >> The second time. Oh my god. Um like you're you're a big um and intimidating
00:35:35
dude. Um so I mean you could look after yourself, but is that still a terrifying
00:35:40
place to be? Yep. I was scared. I was uh it's a it's a funny scared you know when
00:35:47
you say scared you you some people think oh you you know you were like quivering
00:35:51
and all that and it's like scared you you know like if you're going to have a fight in a ring I'm sure there's
00:35:58
an element of scaredness which keeps you sharp >> if you know what I mean. So it was it
00:36:03
was that it was that scared of um I was coming off the streets as well. So there's always that you know looking
00:36:10
over your shoulder and and and um and keeping yourself all right but you know the big boys are there. I was just
00:36:21
a petty >> in the big scheme of things. Yeah. >> Yeah. In the big scheme of things I was
00:36:27
on a honeymoon. You know you guys up there turning up. What'd you get bro? And I was like, "Oh, 6 years. What about
00:36:32
you?" "Oh, 30. Holy, you pillar of strength." >> Yeah. 6 years. Not even worth unpacking
00:36:40
your bag. >> Yeah. They're like, "Oh, honeymoon." >> You know what I mean? So, it's kind of
00:36:46
in the scheme of things. Uh I I I felt like I didn't belong there. >> Um
00:36:53
but, uh >> obviously there's other there's people there that may probably belong there.
00:36:59
Mhm. >> It was uh it was an experience. >> Were you were you mixing with anyone
00:37:06
that was like um your high profile? >> Yeah, it seems high profiles at the
00:37:10
time. Um the the the the samurai guy was there, >> Anthony Dixon. >> Um the guy who did the executions was
00:37:23
there, the young guy, um ASB and all that. Yeah, >> they were they were all there um
00:37:32
>> and everyone in between. >> So, um >> I ran into a guy >> uh I'd ran into him previously before I
00:37:39
got to Perry and then he turned up at Perry and I was like, "Oh, hey, nice to
00:37:44
see you again in in a way that you do." And and and uh he goes, "Oh, I just got PD, which is
00:37:51
parent detention, >> which means that they prevent you from getting out." And I was like, "Wow." And
00:37:58
he was very You wouldn't think that was the face of someone who's never getting out.
00:38:05
>> Who was Who was that? >> You know what? I forgot his name. >> Yeah.
00:38:10
>> I actually prefer not to say the names, you know. >> Fair enough. Yeah. Preventative
00:38:13
detention. That's reserved for the worst of the worst. E. >> Yeah. But
00:38:17
>> I never had a problem with him. He was a nice guy, >> you know. Um
00:38:23
>> obviously wasn't. No, but there's there's no no one's 100% perfect and no
00:38:27
one's 100% evil either. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Yes. Just going back to the court thing
00:38:33
and then we'll we'll go back on the incarceration stuff. So um so you're in
00:38:36
court. So the um so the the final sentence is what? Cuz you end up serving six years, eh?
00:38:41
>> Yeah. I got sentenced to um 4 years 10 months. >> Yeah. >> For those 15. I got discounted for
00:38:50
uh ownership >> and youth and potential being in the in the warriors. Um >> and I was
00:39:05
I served 3 years 10 months of that. I call it four years. Um >> so I was released on uh 200
00:39:16
199 94 2004 2004 >> I was released um after serving 3 years 3 years and 10
00:39:30
months which was 2/3 of my sentence whatever that worked out at >> um there was no good behavior was like
00:39:37
you get sentenced you serve you serve twothirds of it and then you and then you get released to some conditions and
00:39:44
I got I got 350 bucks steps to freedom uh when I got out and I think I just pissed it
00:39:53
up. I got released from uh in >> central North Island. >> Yeah. at Turangi
00:40:01
>> M >> underneath Mount Uru Peru and got picked up and my mate he came down on the V8
00:40:08
and and did a big we did a big wheelie on the way out and then we're off, you
00:40:12
know, and it was Yeah. And I was out and I I got out with an ego um with more connections
00:40:25
with um the same attitude that I went in with, you know, I didn't I had I hadn't
00:40:32
matured. I hadn't grown up. I just met some more people. >> And And you you were bigger. I've heard
00:40:37
you describe yourself as um looking like a stop sign because you've done so many
00:40:41
pre-ups. Well, that's that's relevance to missing leg day, >> right?
00:40:49
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I So, you get you get that sentence. Um, and at that age, four
00:40:56
years is a long time, right? That's that represents like 20% of the life that
00:41:00
you've already already lived. Um, so it seems like an impossibly long time when that door shuts and logs.
00:41:09
Yeah. What's that moment like? Uh the very first time I got shut behind a cell in in prison
00:41:19
that it was it was the it was ah you know and I came back to the rum cuz it was the next day and I oh that would
00:41:30
have been the Friday actually I got locked up in prison so I would have got arrested on Thursday Wednesday or
00:41:34
Thursday >> but yeah again and then I was like oh well I'll start training
00:41:41
So yeah, just started doing press ups and um sparring in cell and um learning learning inside life cuz
00:41:53
there's a lot to learn. You got to learn everything without asking questions.
00:41:58
>> What do you mean? Can you elaborate on that? >> Well, you you got to just stick to your own
00:42:03
business. You know, you don't want to you don't want to walk in and you see
00:42:06
something going on there and you walk over like, "Oh, what's going on over
00:42:08
here?" and then you know it can get you into trouble. So you just kind of you
00:42:13
worry about yourself, you mind your own business and um you know you should you should be okay really. Yeah.
00:42:21
Yeah. So you know it's usually I knew when I first went in I met I met a guy I
00:42:25
played league with years ago and um he kind of he kind of gave me a rundown on you know oh yeah you're all good you
00:42:33
know hang out over here and oh we're going for a game of crash and and all that. So,
00:42:38
>> what's crash? >> Um, it's like leg in in four concrete walls or it's like
00:42:45
league without passes. You can pass. It's um Yeah, you just kind of run. I learned
00:42:55
very quickly to stay in the middle because if you're down the side you can get like pushed into the wall or I did I
00:43:02
remember at the mount in Mount Eden in the um south yard on one side there's
00:43:07
like metal pillars that go up and there's uh like a tin roof and and sort of seats and people can sit under there.
00:43:15
There's a phone. I remember one guy, he was like he he broke a tackle and was running up and
00:43:22
passing the pillars and then I don't know where it came from. Someone hit him and then he just
00:43:29
hit the puller with his head and he shook the whole roof. He was like, you know, like if you run into metal
00:43:37
and I was like, "What?" He got up. I was like, "Wow, stay in the middle."
00:43:42
>> Where where is the fun in this game? We >> I think it's just another measure, you
00:43:47
know. It's uh >> Yeah, it's fun when you're on the other end of it.
00:43:54
>> Oh, yeah. >> But those first few nights on yourself, like um Yeah. Yeah. How like are you
00:43:59
homesick? Like are you feeling devastated? >> I think you I think you come to terms. I
00:44:05
think you always miss you miss things. Uh where I was it was it was fully enclosed concrete. There
00:44:13
was no grass. It was uh fake light and air con. So you get pale. Um you miss the grass. I missed the grass.
00:44:26
Um >> yeah. And I was there. I went from there to Mount Eden and back to there to serve
00:44:31
my sentence in the rem prison in the kitchen. >> Um so yeah, I was there for most of my
00:44:39
sentence. It wasn't until I got to the last few months I was like, "Send me to
00:44:45
the camps. Bit of freedom." Um, so yeah, I mean it's it's, you know, it is what it is. If
00:44:54
that's a thing, >> you just uh you adapt. You adapt and you can um make the most of it or you can
00:45:02
feel sorry for yourself and stay in your cell. >> Yeah. There's a saying that I've heard,
00:45:08
but I I don't fully understand it and I suppose you only would fully understand
00:45:12
it if you've been incarcerated. Excuse me. The saying is something like um you
00:45:17
have to serve your time or your time serves you. >> Have you heard that saying? Do you know
00:45:21
what it means? >> Yeah. >> How what would that mean to you? >> Uh stick to yourself.
00:45:28
>> Do your own time. Don't worry about what's happening over here. If you start
00:45:32
worrying about someone else's time, then >> you might get caught up in someone
00:45:37
else's time. Um, sometimes it's hard to do when you're you're in a enclosed in a you know, you
00:45:46
got a captive audience and you're in a uh a block of 20 to 60 guys that you see. They say
00:45:56
5 years with your cellmates, like 15 years with your family >> cuz you there's no escape. M um
00:46:04
well I can agree with you know I got some really tight bonds with some some good mates um from there.
00:46:12
>> Is it is it a violent place? >> Can be. >> Yeah. >> I saw a lot. Um I didn't do a lot.
00:46:20
>> You managed to avoid it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was uh I just worked I was
00:46:24
in the kitchen most of the time which was great because I wasn't hungry. I was
00:46:29
I was starving in in up in Maxi. >> Um >> yeah, because you're you're you're a big
00:46:35
unit. I mean the um I'm guessing the portions are quite small. >> They're everything you need to survive,
00:46:41
>> right? Nothing more. >> And nothing more. >> Nothing more. >> Yeah. Yeah. I watched my kids like this
00:46:49
morning. They had cocoa pops and toast. And I remember I remember in in PM it was uh two toast
00:46:57
maybe three. and two we pick and that would sustain you till unless you had snacks which you could purchase which
00:47:04
you know >> not everyone did. >> Um working in the kitchen obviously has its
00:47:11
perks. >> Um yeah, I tell you what, you know, I learned I've been to a lot of uh
00:47:19
educational um institutions since the most I ever learned was in prison. M >> the most I the most I use in my life
00:47:28
today is from prison >> and in in terms of good stuff. >> Yeah. Like not not like people I met and
00:47:35
and tips and tricks of how to >> rob banks or anything. Yeah. It's more
00:47:39
about um >> life skills and things. >> Life skills, bigger picture, looking at the bigger
00:47:45
picture. Um, you know, I used to be quite um I get quite aggravated and agitated quite
00:47:54
easily. Now I'm very Now it's hard or I avoid it. So if I start getting if I
00:48:02
feel like there's a situation where I'm getting worked up, I'll just totally
00:48:06
disappear. M um that's that's my strategy because there you know you're
00:48:11
for me it was happy happy friendly big kid or smash your hedon so I had to just I had to just disappear over here.
00:48:21
>> Yeah. I mean there's no doubt about it. You've done the work. That's the thing.
00:48:24
No one can no one you have to change. Like no one else can do it for you. >> That's right. Yeah.
00:48:30
>> Um I suppose that's like going back to what you were saying at the beginning
00:48:33
with Bros for Change. It's like, you know, the these these bros have to make
00:48:37
the change themselves. You can give them the tips and the tools, but they got to
00:48:40
do it. >> It's the old saying, you know, you got all these uh take all these horses down
00:48:44
to the water, but if they don't want to drink, >> 100% >> they're not going to drink.
00:48:48
>> Yeah. >> So, same same principle, same concept. >> What was um something or some things you
00:48:54
saw inside or experience that um people on the outside would find it hard to believe?
00:48:59
Uh, so I I didn't see, but I heard a guy get beat to death and I saw them I saw
00:49:05
the body get carried out the next morning. Um, it was weird to me because no one came to help him. We couldn't, we
00:49:13
were locked up, >> but we could hear it. Uh, and then yeah, we stayed locked up in
00:49:18
the morning and they just carried him out and uh, yeah, never saw him again. And
00:49:24
the guy who did it, I feel like they took him straight after or not long after and we never saw him again either.
00:49:31
So obviously went up to Maxi or something. >> Um yeah, I seen seen, you know, a lot of
00:49:39
fights and and standovers and um other bits and pieces. M >> I mean I'm guess the stories that are
00:49:49
there because they happen you know they didn't just appear from anywhere. all
00:49:52
the stories that that you hear >> um they they generally what goes on >> but also um I had a really good
00:50:04
kind of maybe my first sense of really good camaraderie around around um the boys who were you know we we all we
00:50:15
all trained together we worked together we lived together we looked after each other
00:50:21
>> it was amazing you know, um I loved I loved uh when I was on the when I was on the uh on the
00:50:29
camps on a winter morning underneath Uru Peu, make a nice jug of tea and stand at the
00:50:37
door and you know, you see the mountain appearing and amazing. >> Um as the boys would wake up, morning bro,
00:50:48
you know, cup of tea. So >> that was that was really cool. >> You're painting a really nice picture of
00:50:55
it. >> Yeah. >> I had another guy on the podcast called Ben Padawa. He's like one of New
00:51:01
Zealand's top farmers. When he was 15, he got involved with a couple of mates
00:51:04
with a and they end up with a like a manslaughter charge. >> Yeah. >> Um and he Yeah. He turned his life
00:51:10
around in there. It was in um Ringapo that he got on a prison farm. >> That was his introduction to farming.
00:51:15
And he's um like changed his life around. Um yeah, he he said similar sort of thing. Of course wouldn't want to go
00:51:22
wouldn't want to go back and is a completely different person now. But um >> I think that's what you want to hear. E
00:51:26
like yeah someone reforming and making the changes. >> It's the same like
00:51:31
>> just cuz it was like that for me doesn't mean it was like that for anyone else
00:51:34
>> or will be like that for anyone else. Um >> that was just me and and my mind and and
00:51:40
how I appre I appreciated the small things. I remember those things cuz it's
00:51:43
what I appreciated. >> Mhm. >> Uh yeah. Yeah, I remember the first night though when I got there. I I slept
00:51:51
in a fetal position on the wall heater. It was that cold. A little square heater. I remember just like stuck up
00:51:59
against it. >> Uh but I became used to it and got some extra extra blankets and yeah, got
00:52:07
sorted. >> Yeah. Can't you just um ring the room service bell? >> No. Yeah.
00:52:12
Pick the phone up. >> Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. What is what is one thing or or the things that the public
00:52:19
get completely wrong about prison because I feel like there is this sort of perception in some ways with some
00:52:23
jails. I remember when um the Spring Hill jail was being built. >> Um and if you listen to Talkback, you
00:52:29
think it's like a like a Club Med or something. >> People talk about how it's like a like a
00:52:34
holiday resort. >> Yeah. Well, I I went to um Nafa Prison when it was first first built, just
00:52:39
opened and uh for me it was uh heated head floors on suite. Um not quite the on suite you'd get in
00:52:50
the Airbnb. Um but it was nice. Uh had a running track around the outside. It had a river
00:53:00
running through it. Um we did make a slip and slide one day. Uh we used uh we stole the commercial
00:53:08
spray wipe out of the kitchen and um and tipped it down the hill and then hosed it off. And then we all ended up with
00:53:14
burns all over our body from from the raw spray wipe. And we went to medical and they laughed at us and they said
00:53:23
that's your punishment. You got to deal with those burns. Um probably painting another fun picture,
00:53:29
but >> yeah. Where is this jail? This one sounds amazing. The one with the
00:53:32
running. You had me at running track. >> Yeah. Yafa Mafa in um Yafa Springs
00:53:38
>> north north of Fang. >> Yeah. Um but you know that's that's after the
00:53:50
there's you know a lot of dangerous men in there. There's uh you know you're
00:53:54
getting you're getting told what to do when when to get locked down, when to
00:53:59
open up. there's always a threat of um violence and um standovers and and and
00:54:06
all that things you you'd think of as well. Um I guess uh all of that was there. I just
00:54:14
remember try to remember the good, you know, take the best out of it and what I learned. And I remember
00:54:22
one stage in my leg I I I remember thinking to myself, well, I'm here. I might as well take it for granted and
00:54:30
get everything I can out of it. And then I ended up doing a um sport recreation paper at Northland Polytech um in NAFA
00:54:41
and I met a guy who bought me into Oakland Hotel and Chef's Training School where I became chef afterwards. Um
00:54:52
so all those things came out of um prison and other things can come out of prison too
00:54:58
but depends what you take out of prison or or Yeah. So it's kind of that's just
00:55:04
my story you know everyone else is different. >> Yeah. >> What about courses and stuff? You so you
00:55:10
did all the courses that were available to you. Did you do anger management? Just something you said before. It
00:55:14
sounded like you got, you know, you you got control of your your um your anger like you you said something before about
00:55:19
learning to walk away from things and >> Well, I had to otherwise um and just
00:55:24
keep fighting. >> Yeah. But did you do a course for that or no? Did you just
00:55:28
>> I did do I did do a straight thinking program in prison and um at the time I
00:55:34
did it so I could get out. >> Mhm. >> Later on um those things pop up and I'm
00:55:41
like, "Oh, I remember that." M >> and I actually met the lady who wrote
00:55:45
was part of writing it. She was my boss uh later on uh which was cool and she goes, "Oh, so you've obviously taken
00:55:53
some on board." I was like, "Well, you you employed me." >> So, um yeah, when you when you
00:56:01
eventually get released, um yeah, how do you rebuild instead of returning to to what you know?
00:56:07
Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing is um I was lucky, you know, I've got
00:56:12
heaps of uncles and cousins and aunties and mom and dad and um I was given a place to stay with my
00:56:21
uncle. Um amazing amazing house and facility and I got uh sorry this is the second time I got out.
00:56:34
First time I got out, I stayed with my sister and my sister's too nice and you
00:56:40
know, I do what I want and and because I'd served 2/3 of my sentence, there's
00:56:46
no there's no followup. You just get out. >> Oh, no parole conditions.
00:56:52
>> Yeah, you just get out. And so, um, I just got out and I got out to, well, you
00:56:59
know, had she gave me a room at her house and, uh, I met the guy from the chef's course and
00:57:07
I went and did the chef's course and I did amazing at it and I took that opportunity and then
00:57:14
soon as that course finished, I I had idle hands again. So, I was a bit bored. Um
00:57:22
and then yeah, met up with some some people and got the itch again and did did some more
00:57:32
um robberies like 6 months after I got out. So um got caught straight away and and
00:57:40
straight to prison. They they made it a recall. So got another two years and they sent me straight to maximum.
00:57:48
Oh, so that's when you go to uh Pereo. Yeah. >> Yeah. They're like, "You're going to
00:57:52
Maxi?" I was like, "That's another level." So, >> yeah,
00:57:57
>> man. Why Why did you You've had time to reflect. What? Why did you do that?
00:58:02
Why did you go back >> when you got released after that first stunt? >> Yeah.
00:58:08
>> Why? It seemed like you had so much going for you at that point. You done
00:58:10
You done a Oh, no. Oh, is this when you you came out and you were bigger and stronger and Oh, okay.
00:58:15
>> Met some people. So, it was always going to happen, >> I think. So, I think it was inevitable.
00:58:21
Um, it was amazing I lasted that that long. I remember uh I was working at a place and the guy goes, "What are you
00:58:30
looking at or or what are you doing?" And I was like, "Ah, just making myself
00:58:35
aware of the surroundings." He's like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Oh, just
00:58:37
checking out the streets and why is that?" Like, "Well, you never know where
00:58:41
you need to go." And he's like, "What do you mean?" I like, well, you know, you
00:58:46
you just never know. That's just what I was thinking. You needed to know where
00:58:51
you could go, exits for no reason whatsoever. Like, it was an amazing place, but it was just a mind
00:58:57
frame. Um, >> so you're just wired with a like a criminal mindset. >> Just wired. Yeah.
00:59:02
>> Yeah. Just wired. And, you know, you spend four years in prison and you come
00:59:06
out, you think differently no matter what. Um, >> you you you you're desensitized a bit.
00:59:13
You're seeing things you maybe shouldn't have and you you met some people that
00:59:18
you probably shouldn't and >> Yeah. You just >> Yeah. Well, something like the um um
00:59:27
horrific story you described before about like hearing someone in another another cell getting beaten to death. Um
00:59:33
yeah, I I don't know if you can ever be the same again after hearing something like
00:59:38
that. Like >> Yeah. At the time I was like ah I was like oh it was worse when it was
00:59:45
happening because you could hear him wailing. >> That's why I was like man why is no one
00:59:49
coming? >> Um and you just kind of you just kind of uh go to sleep and then you wake up
00:59:58
you you your body clock wakes you up when the door opens >> and then uh so you wake up and then oh
01:00:04
the door's not open. And so you have a look out the out the little window and
01:00:07
then you see the body getting getting carried out and then you're like, "Oh, he didn't he didn't make it."
01:00:14
Kind of. You'd think overnight they'd gone and helped him, but they didn't.
01:00:19
>> So that actually doesn't play. Uh maybe it does unconsciously, but I don't
01:00:27
really that doesn't weigh in on my thoughts really. M like >> Yeah, >> that was his leg.
01:00:36
>> Yeah. >> So, you get the second stint. And then is is it during that time that you you
01:00:45
come to some sort of internal realization that you got to change? >> Uh as soon as I got to the cop shop or
01:00:50
soon as I got to the sal when I got picked up, taken down. The dude lied too. I had a bang knee from uh oh
01:00:59
actually when I got out I played barard cup um rugby league and I did my medial MCL or something. So it was bung
01:01:13
and then uh the cop I remember he took me in and he oh this is the guy I could see him uh I could hardly walk let alone
01:01:22
run. He goes yeah he was sweaty like he's been running and he's puffy. I was
01:01:26
like, "Where you at, bro? You're full of shit." Anyway, I did it. So, um I uh
01:01:35
yeah, I got locked up uh that day and straight away I was like, "Oh, well, want to start training." So, yeah, just
01:01:43
started training. Um but actually training um that whole stint was just full on full on training.
01:01:54
M >> um >> physical or mental cuz it seems like you're doing physical training the the
01:01:58
first stunt but it was the mental training that you needed to do, right? >> Yeah, it was it was physical which um
01:02:06
uh helped with my mental and I I was kind of like cuz I've been there now so
01:02:11
I'm going back. I know the environment kind of and it's a new environment at
01:02:15
Maxi, but I want to be I I was focused, you know, and um yeah, I didn't stray for for two years. I
01:02:25
think I I think I did two years. I served six years all up, so it must be another two years.
01:02:29
>> Yeah. >> And then um >> yeah, went through the motions of of
01:02:34
that. Um, and when I got out, I was that's I was quite a lot bigger, a lot less fat, you know. Um, I got out, I
01:02:45
remember I got sent back to Mount Eden to get released and I put my clothes on when I got arrested and they were tight
01:02:53
and in all the right places. >> Not like now, but uh remember the big green door at Mount Eden? Uh, they
01:03:01
opened the door and I had my bag and and my clothes on and I kind of stepped over
01:03:07
the door and out into the open and then they shut the door behind me and then I was like waiting for my dad to pick me
01:03:13
up and then he pulled up. He's like, "How's it? Get in." And then we went for
01:03:20
breakfast at his mate's house. And then um I got 350 bucks again. And I went and
01:03:24
bought some training shoes, some Essex, and I um it was Wednesday. And then I went to um training on Thursday night.
01:03:34
And then I played on TV on Monday. >> Wow. >> On Bar Monday Night League on Moldy TV.
01:03:40
Um and there was about five or six cops in that team. >> Mhm. >> And they were awesome, you know. I I
01:03:48
even had my um my Mount Eden woolen jersey on at first training and um to me they didn't bat an eyelid you know
01:03:56
I was just in the team >> I didn't know whether Bernie or or anyone had a word to them or not but
01:04:02
>> who's Bernie >> uh Bernie Pinara he was a coach at the time being my coach many teams many
01:04:08
years >> um yeah so you like uh or actually when I remember the the trainer he was like oh
01:04:17
you might you might not be used to these kind of trainings um being in prison and I remember I was like doing the
01:04:23
trainings I was like is this it you know must be so nice not running into aluminium poles
01:04:30
>> yeah I remember just uh every night we'd do lap just every night running around um
01:04:38
weights we would wrestle uh we were in the kitchen so we were like well fed >> um and we had heaps of rest So food,
01:04:47
food, train, rest, good, good recipe, right? >> M >> um yeah, end of the season, second or
01:04:56
third, I think I played three games at the end of the season. Um and then was just fizzing, fizzing,
01:05:04
fizzing for league, ready to go. And um yeah, like like the hardest thing the hardest thing is actually living out
01:05:15
here many you know it's so easy just to go back to prison. It's really hard to
01:05:21
stay on the outside. Um >> can you can you explain that for anyone that's listening to this? Um,
01:05:29
like having your freedom take taken away seems like one of the worst things imaginable. It seems like a place that
01:05:34
once you've once you've been there, you'd never want to go back. It is. But then when you get out, you've
01:05:42
got responsibilities and and bills. And you when you're in there, you got you're
01:05:50
warm, you're dry, you're fed. Um, and when you get out, you got to be an
01:05:55
adult, you know? You got to um, especially if you got I I didn't have kids or or partner, so it was just me.
01:06:03
Um, I only had to look after me and and that was hard. Um, all the people I'd met in six years,
01:06:13
the last six years of my life, uh, you run into them, they contact you, you you meet you meet up with them and and
01:06:21
there's temptation and it's so easy just to like do that one more >> just to set you up.
01:06:29
>> But, um, for some reason I didn't and and I I I call on Rugby League for that.
01:06:36
And soon as that but I went to training and then I played on Monday night league and
01:06:43
then they took put me on a plane and sent me to Canary to play and then we came back and played Odoo
01:06:50
and then after that was it was the season over and I was like oh now what? And Bernie's like moldies
01:06:56
moldies. So straight into training for Oakland Moldies something to focus on you know um something to keep me going.
01:07:04
Um I think that I was lucky in that that aspect. Rugby league was a passion of mine, you know, and it was that revival
01:07:14
of that that kept me over here rather than going back. So >> I call it, you know, rugby league. It
01:07:21
really did save my life. >> Gave you a purpose. >> Yeah. >> Reason to get out of bed in the morning.
01:07:26
So how old are you at this point? Like mid 20s. >> 26. >> 26. So, so there was there was no chance at
01:07:32
this point of um like becoming like part of the Warriors or anything. Had you just lost too many too many years?
01:07:38
>> Well, actually uh Bernie goes, "Oh, they got this new uh New South Wales Cup
01:07:44
team, which is like Warriors reserves trial. You should go." I was like, "Whatever." Anyway, I went and I made
01:07:51
the team and um so I got out in October and the trial was I don't know maybe
01:07:57
maybe January or something and then went straight into like two trainings a day.
01:08:03
Um but they traveled every second week. They followed the Warriors kind of thing
01:08:09
>> which I couldn't. Um >> Oh, you could only do home games. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:16
>> Travel restrictions. >> Yeah. So, um yeah, I remember um one of the guys from Norway is like, "Can you
01:08:22
travel?" And I was like, "You're not." And he's like, "Oh, that's a shame
01:08:28
because could be different." Um man, I think about that all the time. And I think cuz my I only had one
01:08:35
aspiration. Well, I had three. I got I met the other two. The last one was to play NRL.
01:08:43
>> Uh which I didn't quite make it. Uh, the first two was like owner WRX and
01:08:49
Victoria's Secret Wife. So, I got those two, >> very simple. >> Yeah. So, you um Yeah. You're married
01:09:00
and you got kids now. You mentioned before cuz we're recording this during the school holidays and you took your
01:09:05
kids um past the jail. Yeah. How old are your kids? >> I got four. So, four, six, eight, 15.
01:09:12
>> So, so what do they know about your past? What do you tell them? >> Um, I answer their questions in a um in
01:09:21
an age appropriate answer. >> So, I never say I never hide from it, but I don't give them the the blunt
01:09:29
truth on that. I just tell them, you know, dad was naughty. >> Dad some things.
01:09:35
I took them up to Perry yesterday and showed them where I used to live and Mount Eden where I used to live and they
01:09:42
asked me heaps of questions and I answered it and then like I'm still the dad they know you know
01:09:47
>> we went around the odd hood hood today and showed them different houses and
01:09:51
where my dad lived and my grandmother and >> what sort of questions do they ask about
01:09:56
jail? >> Well, when we got to Parriers obviously >> it's an it's an intimidating place.
01:10:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. I look at it now and I think, man, >> how'd I get in there?
01:10:07
>> Oh, that's right. >> Front gate. >> Yeah, front gate >> on the on the on the into jail bus.
01:10:13
>> Uber for Jay. One way. No. Um and then uh I told them, "Oh, yep. Dad used to stay there." And
01:10:21
they're like, "Did you get food?" Just cuz it looks like it's just fully
01:10:27
so just the way their mind works, you know? And I was like, "Actually, I used
01:10:31
to cook the food." Ah, and then it went on to what kind of food did you cook?
01:10:36
>> So, just kind of >> kids questions. >> Kids questions there. But, you know, as
01:10:40
they grow old, they'll they'll develop it into what it really is. But, um,
01:10:43
>> well, you got this book now, so they they you can just when they're old
01:10:46
enough here, read the book. >> Read the book. Read the book, bro. >> Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:50
>> Yeah. I've always been I've always been open and honest with them, man. and the
01:10:54
boys I work with um that's been actually the strength you know it gives them
01:10:59
something to our tagline for bro change you know real people real talk real change
01:11:04
>> so real people as in you know we've done some [ __ ] too real talk as in completely
01:11:09
honest and real changes in we want you to actually change we don't want to just
01:11:13
like take a box and shake your hand and have a have a nice life >> you know we want you to actually
01:11:21
>> what what you know whatever the change it Just be happy, man. Enjoy your life.
01:11:25
Do whatever you want. >> Yeah. >> And not be not be a puppet. Cut those
01:11:28
strings off and do what you want. >> Um, when you meet your wife, like when
01:11:33
when do you tell her about your past? >> Uh, I can't actually remember the time.
01:11:39
I do remember like knocking on the door at her house >> and uh her mom answered and her mom said
01:11:45
to me later at one of my birthdays, she goes, "I remember when you knocked on
01:11:49
the door." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." She was like quite intimidated. But
01:11:55
>> you're really you are a really imposing dude. >> I wouldn't want to play a game of run it
01:11:59
straight with you. Put it that way. >> Bit old now. Bit old now. But um >> yeah, I mean my wife's she's polar
01:12:07
opposite of me, you know. She's really nice. >> She's um she's uh got Dutch Dutch
01:12:14
descent. Um Christian upbringing. um very caring, very giving. Um yeah, everyone's like, "Bro, how what does she
01:12:26
see in you?" You know, and I think uh I think my mystery is what she sees in me.
01:12:33
She loves So, I don't actually talk too much to her about it. Like, if she asked me a
01:12:38
question, I'll answer it. And then she's like, >> "Oh, but but what else?" You know? So,
01:12:43
>> well, I know you I know you hate this word, but >> maybe when she met you, she could just
01:12:48
see the potential in you. >> Yeah, she always she saw something. She saw something
01:12:53
>> and you you haven't Yeah. Like you haven't let her down. Like, you know,
01:12:56
you're living a really good life now and you're doing really cool stuff.
01:12:59
>> Yeah. Um, but I I can't imagine like from her perspective how difficult you
01:13:03
she starts she falls in love with this guy that's got a got a past and then she's got to explain it to like her
01:13:09
family and her friends like she's got to justify it to them. You know what I
01:13:13
mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. I remember at the wedding like uh like I said I've always been
01:13:17
open about it. >> Yeah. >> And um if people ask I tell them >> and they'll they'll say one of two
01:13:23
things like oh gosh or that's great that you're doing well now you know. So I remember at the wedding I
01:13:30
uh it was a lot of people, hundred odd people and you know you you stand up and you got to say this great amazing speech
01:13:38
and I remember saying last time I spoke in front of this many people was at court.
01:13:50
But everyone laughed. It was a great icebreaker. >> Yeah, they're your people.
01:13:55
>> Yeah. >> Um Yeah, it was it was >> you got a good sense of humor. How how
01:14:06
does your past um still impact your life today? Obviously there's the travel
01:14:10
issues. You can't travel. >> I can. >> You can. Where can you go?
01:14:14
>> Everywhere. Really? I've been around the world. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Kind of.
01:14:18
>> Yeah. I've been to um Raaro, Fiji, >> um Makati, >> um Australia. I got my visa to America.
01:14:32
I just didn't go. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. Um I apply I I go through the
01:14:39
paperwork and I check and I r everyone up and make sure what do I need to get in? All
01:14:45
you need is this this apply for it and get it. So, I've been uh I actually went
01:14:51
back to Australia and did a year playing league over there in um 2014. >> M
01:14:58
>> So, that was a big breakthrough. >> That's when I finally got over um not
01:15:04
playing in the NRL. >> Yeah. >> Really? Why is that to sort of just scratch an itch?
01:15:10
>> Yes. So, I went over and I did the thing and uh by the time I did the thing, it
01:15:16
wasn't my thing. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. And I came back and got married.
01:15:20
>> Yeah. >> Um you're 100% right. I scratched the itch. >> Yeah.
01:15:25
>> Yeah. >> What What about redemption? Is it Are there some people that just, you know,
01:15:30
can't see past your past? Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. 100%. um see it all the time and and every
01:15:38
time a news article comes out there's there's always the comments of you know once always uh uh uh cheetah
01:15:46
never changes its spots and stuff like that but >> whatever I'm here I'm doing my thing
01:15:54
people people are weird e cuz like you know what we want from um like the New Zealand um prison system is is people
01:16:04
like you people that go through do the work and change and become contributing members of society. But then there's
01:16:10
some people and it's like they they kind of don't want you to change in a way or
01:16:13
they or they don't want you to experience a certain level of success after you've done something bad. It's a
01:16:18
real strange mindset. I find it hard to get my head around. >> Yeah, same. And I see it all the time.
01:16:23
>> I see it in other things where they comment on not me something will happen
01:16:28
and they they just all no matter what you do, they just see what they want to see. Um, I find myself there sometimes
01:16:36
>> when it when it fits my narrative. >> Yeah. >> But I'm aware of it and I I try not to
01:16:42
>> I try not to. Um, but it's it's human behavior, you know. >> What would your advice be for anyone
01:16:49
that's like listening to this or watching to this now that's at their own
01:16:52
version of rock bottom right now? >> Um, yeah. I don't know. Don't do that thing
01:17:04
you did that hurt. Don't do that. >> Yeah. >> No. Yeah. It's hard cuz everyone has
01:17:11
their own >> Yeah. >> version. One guy one guy said to me, um, two things to change. Um, inspiration or
01:17:20
desperation. >> Mhm. >> So if at the bottom you're probably desperate.
01:17:24
>> Um, if you can't change when at the bottom Yeah. or you get inspired by someone to
01:17:30
lose that weight or or or go to the Olympics or be an all black or whatever. So, find that and if you can't uh yeah,
01:17:41
just work harder and maybe work the weekends, you know. Well, that's um one thing I've got from this um this doing
01:17:47
this podcast. I've done like 250 episodes now with all sorts of people like um you know, some really high
01:17:53
achieving uh New Zealanders. It's like the the one thing they all have in common is hard work.
01:17:59
Natural talent's only going to get you so far, but hard work is the it's the
01:18:03
one thing they all have in common. >> God, when you when you were sitting in
01:18:06
sitting in your various jail cells, did you ever imagine your life could look as
01:18:09
good as what it does now? >> Um, in a in a distant dream, you know, you know, you dream of things and
01:18:17
>> yeah, I dreamed of things for my life. Um, it was never this. it was never this
01:18:23
and and what I do and um yeah, it's just amazing and I'm I'm lucky to have a supportive family and
01:18:35
great mates now and um people who keep me honest and um and yeah, like a great community of
01:18:43
league and the other sports, disc golf and whatever. Um >> yeah, and What sport? What did you say?
01:18:52
Disc golf. >> Disc golf. >> Is it like frisbee golf? >> It is.
01:18:56
>> Do you play frisbee golf? >> I do. >> I wouldn't have picked you to be a
01:18:59
frisbee golf guy. >> Well, I'm a I'm a non-cont sport guy these days.
01:19:04
And uh disc golf, you don't need any uh sandune running. No, no preseason fitness.
01:19:11
Uh no, no Saturday night benders after the game. Yeah, we actually ran the New Zealand Nationals at the beginning of
01:19:18
the year. Um, >> what would what would 19year-old Jay thinking thinking of think of this guy,
01:19:24
the dis golfer? >> Oh, the same as um the same as 35year-old Jay would say when he first
01:19:30
learned it. >> Bro, want to come for a game of disco golf? >> Does it look like I play disc golf?
01:19:36
Anyway, I went and instantly hooked. Wow. And it's great for um the boys at at work. like we get them to build the
01:19:46
courses and >> you know whole range of skills in that and also it's great for one-on-one chats
01:19:52
go for a round. >> Yeah. >> Um >> so it's actually it's great sport.
01:19:59
>> When when did you become um good or or better than what you were at being open
01:20:04
and like having vulnerable discussions and talking so openly and freely about this real crunchy stuff?
01:20:09
>> I remember the time. >> Do you? There's a YMCA national hoie. Um
01:20:15
201 13 or 14. Um they had a national hoie and Christ Church and me and Tikki were tasked with
01:20:26
the welcome the opening and keynote keynote speaking. And Tikki was always the the front man. He was really good.
01:20:33
He's really um he's an academic and I was I was kind of like the mahi guy in the background doing all the bits
01:20:40
and pieces. Anyway, he goes, "Bro, you should tell your story." And I was like, "Oh, that's a bit new."
01:20:47
And then he encouraged me and helped me. And anyway, we got to the part and I told my story and
01:20:55
people responded >> which was empowering. Um, and people were encouraging and uh I
01:21:03
felt awkward walking around after thinking like you know about me. >> Yeah, it like vulnerability is hard.
01:21:10
Like it feels like you've been standing naked on stage in front of those people.
01:21:13
>> Yeah. Another guy um who was a sergeant in the army for 21 years. He works at
01:21:18
Bridge of Change now. >> Um I told him I was like um do you want to come and do some stuff at our camps
01:21:24
with our boys from a different perspective? and he used that opportunity to um cuz he was saying in
01:21:31
the army everyone's there cuz they want to be and they want to learn >> but when you got kids who are not there
01:21:37
cuz they want to be >> in the I'm talking about army uh and you have to try and teach them it's about
01:21:43
working to the audience. Um anyway, I while while we were there, I gave this I spoke to these kids
01:21:50
because he's used to get down and give him 20 now, you know, and and when I spoke to them, I spoke to them from a uh
01:22:00
from being being vulnerable. Like I shared some stuff to the kids about >> and he was and the and the kids
01:22:06
responded to me better than the way they responded to that. And he was like, >> "What's the sorcery?" Cuz he's all, you
01:22:13
know, he's a half man. He's quite so ever since then he was really curious
01:22:17
about >> that side of it. So so now he works there >> and uh >> interesting. You different way of
01:22:23
communication. It's sort of like what you were saying before when you first got arrested and the police were there
01:22:26
and it wasn't like um confrontation. It was like K it's the police here.
01:22:31
>> Yeah. It's different different way of approaching things >> rather than
01:22:35
>> Yeah. Get on your knees. >> Yeah. Kicking the door down. And it was
01:22:37
a different approach which was um >> I think the result would have been the
01:22:42
same. I wasn't going to that, you know, the gigs up. >> Yay. >> Um Yeah. How often, if at all, do you
01:22:49
think about um the victims these days? You know, the people that were working those jobs when they when you did the
01:22:55
armed robberies. >> Uh times like the last couple of days a lot. Cuz I'm here in Oakuckland. Um
01:23:03
yeah. And I I think of the not the physical harm I did to them because there physically there was none. It was
01:23:12
all psychological, you know. And >> I just think me coming in aggressive like that and
01:23:21
demanding. I actually don't know how that feels, but I can imagine, you know, um they all
01:23:30
take it differently and yeah, I hope that um I hope that they see what I'm doing now. And I hope they
01:23:37
kind of like not it was worth it, but I'm I'm glad that he's giving back now rather than
01:23:45
continuing on their path and and others are victims. >> Um yeah, so that's that's kind of what I
01:23:53
think of it. I haven't really made any attempts to reach out whether they're
01:23:58
around or or not. It was been a long time and >> yeah, so >> if if any of them were um watching this
01:24:05
or listening to this, like what would you what would you say to them? >> Ah man, yeah, I'm just
01:24:15
obviously it's um changed my life. Um, and yeah, I hope it hasn't had any um
01:24:23
major effects on on on their life and yeah, come come for a be uh Yeah, obviously.
01:24:35
>> Yeah, I I Yeah, I mean, I can tell you're like you're you're ashamed about
01:24:39
it because you know, you're not the same person now as what you were then. >> Yeah.
01:24:43
>> Yeah. Very ashamed. especially like um uh direct victims >> uh from that from from that um arm
01:24:52
robbery end as well as well my my family and and all that. So >> yeah, >> hopefully now it's kind of like all
01:25:02
healing itself. >> Yeah. Um yeah, you're helping a lot of people fix their lives now, but I reckon
01:25:08
we're all permanent um works in progress as human beings. What's one thing that
01:25:12
you're still working on fixing in yours? >> Um, my connection to T Modi.
01:25:18
>> Um, >> is that going to be a lifelong thing? >> Yep. Never ends. Um, it it draws me now
01:25:24
more than ever. Draws me back to, you know, that's why part of it is showing the kids. Um, my grandmother's
01:25:33
house, my dad's house, where all the houses I lived while I was here, the area I grew up in, um, the prisons. And
01:25:40
then on Saturday we tomorrow we're going um up to where we're from, the Murray,
01:25:46
>> where my grandmother's from. And then uh next week we're going into the UD from
01:25:50
where my grandmother's from. >> So all of that is um is a home base, you know, and once you
01:25:58
know where once you know where you are and you know how to get anywhere from there, if you don't know where you are,
01:26:04
>> how do you get to New Zealand? >> Plain, boat, walk, depends where you
01:26:09
are. >> Yeah. So that's my kind of um that's my thinking is to so if they cuz if I ask
01:26:18
my kids oh where you from oh they actually they're actually um fluent in Tadel but
01:26:23
>> wow >> but a lot of the boys at work I'll be like where you from I'm from Christurch
01:26:28
but I know there's a lot more >> behind them so figuring out where their
01:26:33
home base is then they can go anywhere >> cuz once I kind of >> accepted that and figured that out. I
01:26:39
kind of been hitting milestones ever since. >> Yeah, >> that's awesome. Do you do you consider
01:26:46
yourself a role model? >> Um, yeah. >> Yeah. And it's been it's um it's quite
01:26:57
easy like uh I will a recent one I'll take kids up the hill. Uh we'll walk up
01:27:04
the hill to in in in the Alps somewhere and what are we doing up here? So well we're hunting.
01:27:11
>> So we haven't seen any animals. Well, we're getting experience and then what do we do now?
01:27:21
>> What are we going to do now? So let's all sit around. Let's have feed and um
01:27:24
I'll read you a chapter of my book. and they're like, "No." But I'll but I'll but I'll read it and
01:27:31
then um I'll read a chapter and then I'll I'll leave them with that and then
01:27:37
throughout the next couple days I'll be walking with them on the way back or
01:27:41
whatever and they'll be like, "Oh, Mata, you know, you're saying about how like
01:27:45
you didn't have a home." Yeah, I know cuz you know I've been passed around and so you know they
01:27:51
connect with a little bit of it and and if they see I came from that >> and uh and that's where they are and
01:28:00
they can see what I'm doing now, you know, it's a light for them. It's it's
01:28:03
something for them, you know, it's not always going to be like that, but it's
01:28:06
up to them. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like we talked about before, you can give someone the tools,
01:28:11
but they got to they got to figure out how to use them. Oh, >> there's one thing in your book. Um,
01:28:17
there's there's a line you used and I wanted some elaboration on this. I
01:28:19
forgot about this actually. So, you said you served something like 6 years, but your total sentence was 16 years.
01:28:25
>> What does what does that mean? >> Well, if you do 6 years of prison and
01:28:30
then you get out, you're not immediately back to where you started. You're you're
01:28:36
6 years behind, if not deeper in a hole. You don't get back to um a playing level
01:28:41
field. >> Well, I didn't. And so when I got out, not only was I behind, I was actually in
01:28:47
a hole. >> Mhm. >> So it took me 10 years to uh change the perception of myself
01:28:55
>> and rebuild enough things to get back to what I didn't have when I started.
01:29:01
>> Right. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Like when I went to prison, I didn't
01:29:04
have anything. >> So when I got out, I had to rebuild back to not having anything.
01:29:09
>> Um >> Right. Yeah. Next, you need to work even harder to prove yourself that you're a
01:29:14
contributing member of society. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
01:29:18
>> It's interesting. I've never heard anyone explain it that way. >> Yeah. Even Yeah. So, you don't just get
01:29:23
out and just carry on where you were. You know, you don't get >> you don't get held up.
01:29:28
>> Um you're actually generally worse off and you have that stigma following you
01:29:32
around. So, not only do you have to >> um prove yourself, you have to prove
01:29:37
yourself more because you're you're that guy. M >> yeah, >> if you um if you were able to go back
01:29:44
and talk to an 18-year-old version of yourself, I know what you'd say. Um but
01:29:48
would would that kid listen? >> No, he wouldn't. Nah, people are like I
01:29:53
always say, I built this program for young me. The program I run now was what I needed. But in all honesty,
01:30:02
uh everyone knew I needed it. I knew I knew I needed it, but I wouldn't take
01:30:06
it. >> Yeah. You had to learn the hard way. >> I had to learn the hard way. And that's
01:30:08
what I say to kids. It's like you can either listen to me or you can go learn
01:30:13
some lessons and then come back, >> but do it easy, do it. Up to you, you know.
01:30:19
>> I love that. Yeah. Ultimately, it's personal accountability. >> Yes.
01:30:22
>> Are you um have you have you been able to forgive yourself? >> Uh yeah, a little bit. mostly like I
01:30:31
really love I really love um I really love some results that we get but then I'm there's always that like thing in
01:30:39
the background like like like what if and and what have I done to people? Uh so I guess like doing the work I do now
01:30:50
is um makes me feel better about myself. >> Is that right? You still carry still
01:30:55
carry a bit of guilt and shame about >> Yeah, there's always like when uh some
01:31:00
people say it proudly, oh, this is my mate Jay. Uh he he did this. Uh but he's
01:31:07
a good guy, you know, which is which is fair. And um and then uh every now and then you get the you get the judge look
01:31:15
like, oh, and oh, hey, nice to meet you kind of thing. Whereas like >> Yeah. Yeah,
01:31:21
>> but you that's a that's a snapshot. You know, there's a lot there's a lot in
01:31:26
between which I'm happy with. >> Um but I did it. >> So, you know,
01:31:32
>> got to live with the consequences of your actions. >> That's right.
01:31:34
>> Yeah. >> Accountability. >> Um what about future? How old are you
01:31:38
now? What's your age? >> Well, they call me um on my birth certificate. They said I'm 45, but you
01:31:44
freeze in prison, so I'm 39. >> Yeah. What What happens on your birthday
01:31:49
in jail? Um well I can't say that but >> well no you can it's a podcast you can
01:31:56
say whatever you want. >> Yeah I mean a few things you can um go to sleep you can uh a couple of birthday
01:32:04
uh I had my 21st in prison and um all the guys they actually bought some things from their canteen and then they
01:32:11
all put it all in together. We had a we party you know chocolate biscuits and chips and uh stuff like that. May have
01:32:17
been some home brew. Can't remember. um >> home brew like with made with old fruit.
01:32:23
Is that how you make prison wine or whatever they call it? >> I've had I've had a veggie mite one,
01:32:28
minties, raaru, um a yeast one, uh yeah, oranges, fermentss, um >> [ __ ] does it taste like [ __ ]
01:32:38
>> Yeah, >> but you know, desperate times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I got I got crooked a few times.
01:32:49
Obviously, they're still cooking. >> Um, but the moment was great. >> Yeah.
01:32:55
>> I suppose you just want that just that moment of escapism, eh? >> Yeah. I remember my 21st. You know how
01:33:00
people normally get a key. >> I was like, well, in this case, I really wish I had the door.
01:33:07
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. What about future goals? Yeah. Where do you see yourself at? Yeah. 50,
01:33:12
whatever. Um, living quietly in the bush, >> self- sustainable. um teaching my kids all the life skills
01:33:22
and quite simple actually simple life of um in the bush hunting sustainably and and
01:33:33
uh learning learning about the tao and retracting back to uh matiki and and those ways learning
01:33:44
living quite happily is quite has got quite got a strong pull on me these days. So, it's
01:33:50
really cool. >> Well, chasing chaos didn't really work out for you. So, yeah, Chasing
01:33:55
Simplicity, I think that's the way to go. >> Tried that out. Didn't really work out.
01:34:00
>> One star wouldn't recommend. >> Um, yeah. If if you if your kids were
01:34:05
here, your kids and your wife, and I asked them to come together as a group and put together like three words to
01:34:11
describe you, >> Yeah. >> what three words do you think they'd come up with?
01:34:15
Um, that's tough because it's kind of like talking about myself, but it's they
01:34:22
probably say funny. Uh, my wife would say either determined or or hardworking. >> And the kids would say farting.
01:34:34
>> Jeez, how bad is that? But uh >> yeah, probably determines uh funny and
01:34:43
uh caring or strong. >> They're nice words. You like those words? >> I do. It describes a very different
01:34:51
>> J >> to, you know, the the one I left in Oakuckland. >> Yeah.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself? >> I am. I'm proud of what I've been able
01:35:02
to do, the places I've been, and um the way I've recovered, I guess, from what
01:35:08
could have been very different. And proud of my family >> and sort of excited to see what they can
01:35:15
achieve. >> This has been great. >> Yeah. How's it for you? Is it is it
01:35:23
cathartic? Is it embarrassing talking about the old stuff? >> Uh yeah, there's a little embarrass.
01:35:29
There's a little bit of embarrassment there. There's a little bit of It got
01:35:32
It's gone fast. >> Yeah, it's mate. It's been like an hour and a half.
01:35:35
>> Yeah. Um, it's gone fast. It's gone. Um, uh, good. >> It's been really It's been really great.
01:35:48
I've really enjoyed it. And, um, yeah, I hope it's been um, enjoyable for you as
01:35:52
well. >> Yeah, I hope it's interesting. Yeah, >> that's what I thought of the book when
01:35:57
they said, "Hey, you should write a book." I was like, >> cuz I'd already been talking about a lot
01:36:03
of the stuff. So, to me, it was just repeat, repeat, repeat. >> But, um, >> yeah, that was my main goal was like
01:36:10
people would be like, "Oh, this is not even interesting." But, >> seems to be interesting.
01:36:17
>> Yeah, I lived it. So, it was kind of >> Yeah. >> I know the story.
01:36:21
>> Did you Yeah. What was the process? So, publishers came to you. Did you write it
01:36:24
yourself or did they give you like a a a ghost writer that interviewed you and then wrote it for you or?
01:36:29
>> Yeah, they gave me a ghost writer. >> Yeah. >> Uh they actually found me. I did a TED
01:36:33
talk and they found me on that and then rang me up and said do you want to do a book? I was like
01:36:39
>> I never went to school. That's but they said they do. I was like what I got to do? They're like nothing.
01:36:44
>> Yeah. >> I was like okay >> can't see any um negative out of it. So
01:36:50
yeah, let's do it. That's must be crazy like going into a mall and seeing yourself in a paper
01:36:55
plus. >> Yeah, the kids got a bit of a routine now. They're like every time we go in
01:36:59
they're like being the first ones to find the book. Um yeah, I've been signing a few at the
01:37:06
shops and uh they put a sticker on it and then I encouraged them to put it out the front.
01:37:13
>> I wasn't too fussy at the start, but we we got to some >> uh some kind of um bestselling list um
01:37:19
Wow. which was at the time I was like, "Oh, maybe there's something here." So
01:37:24
then I started pushing it a bit more. >> Um, but it's been a whirlwind.
01:37:29
>> Yeah. Hey, congrats, mate. Congrats on everything you've done. Um, no,
01:37:34
actually, not on everything you've done. >> Congrats on everything you've done
01:37:38
recently. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I can't wait to see what you do in the future. You're you're a good dude
01:37:42
doing good stuff. >> Yeah. Cheers, Dom. Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it, mate. Yeah.