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Jay Poke Poke, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thanks, mate. Kind of good to be here.
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Yeah.
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>> Is it you are you nervous? Are you
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anxious? Are you How you feeling?
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>> Yeah, all of that.
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>> Yep.
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>> Yep. All of that. Uh don't do too much
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talking. So, um it's all new and I'm
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actually interested to see hear the
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questions and see how I respond. So,
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yeah.
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>> Yeah. So am I. So, um there's a couple
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of things that we should front foot it
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with. Um brand new book out, a memoir
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called Inner Warrior.
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>> Mhm.
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>> Yeah. I I love the name. Um there's so
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many layers to that. Um why was that the
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title that you settled on?
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>> Uh I actually did a talk a TED talk um
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long time ago and in a warrior came from
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a theme I actually stole off Steve
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Harvey, the comedian guy. Uh he's
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talking about
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uh if you want your parachute to open,
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you got to jump off a cliff. Talking
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about potential.
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Um
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which is a word I hate, but I kind of
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ran with that theme with myself and my
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and my change and and it kind of worked
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with being a you know being in the
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warriors at some stage. So it wasn't
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about um actually a physical warrior. It
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was more of a internal warrior which was
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the you know the biggest fight for me.
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So it kind of just made sense and
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>> and everyone liked it. So yeah that's
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where we were.
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>> That's how we landed.
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>> Why do you hate the word potential?
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>> Oh cuz you know it's it's like um you
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always hear it, oh he's got potential.
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It's like what do you mean he's got
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potential? He still he still has
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potential. you just uh yeah, I talked a
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little bit about that in the in the in
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the TED talk around, you know, all the
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potentials in the graveyard because
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people never acted on on on their ideas.
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>> Um
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it's just it just grew on me as
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something I didn't like the word
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potential and people say it as a um in
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hindsight, you know, oh, he had good
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potential, he could have been this, he
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could have been that. So, well, you
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still can
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>> just in something else maybe. That's
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just my little thing anyway.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I suppose that's
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something you've heard a lot. People
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would say um in particular with your um
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Yeah. I suppose like teenage years, they
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say you had a lot of potential and you
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sort of threw it all away.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. Does it sting a bit?
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>> Yeah. Oh, it stung for 10 years.
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>> And I uh Yeah. I think back to what I
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could have, should have, didn't
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>> and and where my mind is at now and what
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could have been. But actually where I am
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now is I wouldn't want to be anywhere
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else.
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>> It's um kind of worked out
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better than potentially how I could have
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been
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>> potential.
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It's been a a a hell of a a hell of a
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journey and a process uh to to become
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the man you are today that's sitting in
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front of me. And um Bros for Change,
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that's the other thing you're involved
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with. How do you how do you explain
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that? What's the elevator pitch for Bros
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for Change?
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>> Well, it was it was a really um
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inspiring way we came about that that
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name actually is uh me and the bro and
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we wanted to make change.
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So, so we were just two bros
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and we wanted to make change and we
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didn't want to complicate it and we're
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just two bros wanted to make change. So,
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there's the
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>> So, you settled on the name. No, no, but
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what does it name aside? What does it
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what does it mean and what do you do?
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>> Yeah. So actually uh it came about cuz
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we both worked in um in a in a system a
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a system that
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you know 9 to5
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babysitting
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doing all these things. Um
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and that was okay at start because at
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the start cuz I volunteered volunteered
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my time. I wanted to give back uh all
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all what I had. And then so yeah, we did
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that. And then once I sort of learned
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how it all works, I thought, man, I've
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got I've got more than I can that I want
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to give that I'm allowed to give. So So
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that didn't really work for me. Um I
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found myself just being kind of uh caged
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off in an area had you're allowed to do
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this and this and this and don't let
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them do that that that. And and to me
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that wasn't really that wasn't helping.
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that was just glorified babysitters.
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>> So, um me and the Brew Tiki Koopinger,
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we um he was there also. We s we kind of
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did some offsite uh peer supervision
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with ourselves and and some southern
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comfort at the time. And uh you know for
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about four years we just talked you know
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what would we do how do we do it what do
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we have what can we offer
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what can we take from what we've learned
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and um add value and and actually help.
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We don't want to put plasters on cuz
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they come off in a few days. We want to
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actually real real change you know. So
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that's what bro change is. It's not just
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a um
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>> you know a start date and a finish date
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contract. So you're you're building a
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relationship for a lifetime.
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>> It's uh Yeah.
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>> So who who are the bros that you're
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changing?
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>> Anyone?
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>> Um at the moment we kind of contracted
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with um the government to work with um
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that that are so-called needs which is
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not employed in enrolled or in training.
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Um but we take anyone from this
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particular program we call team of
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tong-o fresh start. We work with anyone
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from uh turning 15 that year to up to
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24.
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>> Um
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also other than that we work with anyone
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one-on-one who
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man anyone. When I say anyone, could be
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um in a single parent home, could be in
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a gang family, could be uh lacking
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confidence,
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uh school's not working for them. You
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know, there's no there's no exact type.
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It's a range of of different um
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different things where they might come
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into contact with us,
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>> right? So, so you're getting young
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people and you're basically um you're
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warning them about potholes along the
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road that you've learned from your own
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journey in life.
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>> Yeah, that Yep. Part of it we do we call
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that reality therapy. You know, the the
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therapy is your reality.
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>> So, uh it's all self-referred. Uh we
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don't we don't take referrals or or or
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court court sentence to to do our
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program because then they're not there
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because they want it. They're there
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because someone told them to do it.
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>> Yeah. They're ticking boxes. That's
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right. Yeah. So, we um we we might get
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30 odd registrations for a cohort and we
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can only take for our capacity up to 14.
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>> So, we have to like interview
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everyone and and then sort of decide who
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who's the best fit, who's going to
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benefit the most, who really needs this
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the most. And it's only it's only based
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off our assessment, but you know, we we
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get it wrong as well. M but
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>> yeah,
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>> that's the world, isn't it?
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>> Well, thanks for that um explanation. I
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think that sets the platform for the
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podcast. Um you're a good dude and
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you're doing some great stuff in the
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community. So, you got this amazing book
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and a warrior and um you spend your days
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um changing lives for the better with
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Bros for Change. So, now we can um start
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painting a picture of the the Jay story,
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the good, the bad, and the ugly. And
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there's plenty of each, right?
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>> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. So, what are your earliest
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memories um of growing up as a a kid in
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Christ Church? Oh,
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>> I actually grew up in Oakuckland. Uh and
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I moved to Christ Church to get away
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from everyone.
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>> Oh, okay. Yes. So, I moved to Christ
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Church in 2009
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maybe, but I grew up in West Oakland. Um
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quite transient. Uh my earliest memories
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are
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chasing my sister to school. I wasn't
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five. Uh she was going to school and I
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used to chase her to school in in Tatoo
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Peninsula. M
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>> um other than that uh moving to fielding
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with my mother and
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um bunking school at that age and and
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running up the river and building huts
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and and uh getting into trouble and
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mischief.
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>> Those are my earliest uh childhood
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memories and sort of not really seeing
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my dad much just when he'd come for
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visits or or would would go up north.
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Um yeah, moved around the family, uncles
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and aunties and distant uncles and
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grapevine uncles and around the country.
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>> Fang, Christ Church,
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uh Palmyston, Oakland.
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>> Uh not really settled many different
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schools. Never really settled in school.
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Uh went to Rutherford and Calston,
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Calston boys. Uh back when uh what's an
00:09:05
old mate? Um All Black Coach was the
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principal there. Uh Graham Henry. Yeah.
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Yeah. Dead.
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>> Yep. Um
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so yeah, quite a quite a um transient
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kind of childhood. I uh no matter where
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I was though, I remember always finding
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um the league training and the league
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field
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>> late everywhere except for training.
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>> Yeah. So when you reflect on um on your
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childhood, Yeah. How would you describe
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it?
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>> Is it good memories?
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>> Fun. Yeah. Okay.
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>> Um, adventurous.
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>> Um,
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>> yeah, always fun. It was always fun. Um,
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got to hang out with all my cousins and
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moved around the country and was always
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looked after. You know, there's there's
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no reasons for me to go off the rails.
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>> So, you had a good start in life.
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>> Great start.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. Had mom and dad, had um never
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hungry, had um
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didn't really have any friends. had a
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had a couple of dogs that I used to hang
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out with.
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>> You're just a loner.
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>> I was a bit of a loner.
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>> Quite quite a loner. My kind of fun I
00:10:19
unofficially to my grandmother. So So
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she wasn't too mobile. I was I was too
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mobile. So we kind we kind of worked out
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there.
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Um yeah, she she brought me out for a
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few years. So that was it was awesome.
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>> Yeah. And what was your um relationship
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like growing up with your mold culture?
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uh kind of like pushed it away. Yeah,
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>> she was very strong uh her and my
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grandfather uh very strong um in the
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community in in T moldi and tadil and I
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just had no bar of it u for no reason no
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reason whatsoever. I just just wasn't
00:10:57
relative to me at at that time. why
00:11:01
it just wasn't
00:11:04
um yeah it just you know other things
00:11:07
were it's the same reason you know why
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didn't I go to school why didn't I stay
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at home
00:11:13
>> yeah there was no really particular
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reason um I really regret not taking
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advantage of that now I wish I did cuz
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now now it's three times as hard to to
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get what I could have grown up with
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>> hindsight's a wonderful thing though you
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can't you just can't live with too much
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regret. There's no point.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. It's
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>> a waste of waste of energy. So, you you
00:11:33
mentioned um league before. Yeah. And
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you were really good, right? Like you
00:11:37
were um in the uh Warriors under 19 like
00:11:41
New Zealand age group teams. Who who are
00:11:43
some of the you know the teammates or
00:11:45
the people you played with that went on
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to become household names?
00:11:48
>> Oh, household names. Uh Monty Betham, uh
00:11:51
Aliti.
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Um, it was that era, you know, Henry
00:11:56
Farfilly, Francis Melly, Clinton Torpi,
00:11:59
we were like under 13s, Oakland age
00:12:02
grade. Um,
00:12:04
it was that era. It was um, it was I I I
00:12:09
always say it was when league was great,
00:12:12
>> but it was it was a golden era.
00:12:14
>> Yeah. You could still shoulder charge.
00:12:16
Uh,
00:12:18
um, it was really tough. I was um I was
00:12:22
I was physical but but my mind wasn't
00:12:25
wasn't in it at the time. Uh
00:12:28
so yeah, that was the the the
00:12:32
downside of not going to school was I I
00:12:34
lost sort of um
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uh my social cues and um yeah,
00:12:41
socializing with people. I wasn't really
00:12:43
too good at
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>> I still was still a bit awkward around
00:12:46
socializing. I prefer to sort of drift
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into the background or I feel more
00:12:52
comfortable hanging out with with the
00:12:53
theangut at work, you know, being a big
00:12:57
a big kid.
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Um but yeah, you know, watching those
00:13:02
guys, um from there, Odell Emanuel,
00:13:08
um Kylie Ludai go and do great, you
00:13:12
know, become legends of the game. This
00:13:14
was really inspiring and uh
00:13:17
>> kind of made me, you know, regret again
00:13:20
my decisions. But back then when I was
00:13:23
watching it, I was like, "Oh man, you
00:13:25
know, I could have, should have,
00:13:26
didn't." But but but now I understand.
00:13:30
And well over it. Well over it. But took
00:13:34
a bit, you know, I was very sour and
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bitter at myself for a long time.
00:13:38
>> Yeah. No [ __ ] I can I can I can I can
00:13:40
see how you would. Yeah. I mean, you
00:13:42
don't hold anything against those guys
00:13:44
for their success, but you just beat
00:13:46
yourself up uh for throwing away this
00:13:48
incredible opportunity. is I mean
00:13:50
hypotheticals are they're difficult
00:13:52
things and they are kind of a waste of
00:13:53
time but is it fair to say you would
00:13:55
have you made the NRL?
00:13:58
>> Um it's hard to say. I did have I did
00:14:00
have some contracts um or when I got out
00:14:04
actually when I got out of u my indoor
00:14:07
experience
00:14:09
>> I had Is that what we're calling it?
00:14:10
>> Yeah. Well, a lot of people do OE. I do
00:14:13
I
00:14:19
>> it's similar. I mean, you travel the
00:14:21
country,
00:14:22
>> you you meet like-minded people.
00:14:26
>> It's making jail sound kind of sexy and
00:14:28
all right.
00:14:28
>> Yeah.
00:14:29
>> Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. So, okay.
00:14:34
>> So, you were that good.
00:14:37
>> So, what why did you start It's quite
00:14:39
funny. Yeah. Why did you start going off
00:14:40
the rails?
00:14:42
Yeah. Uh, like I said, I was um I was
00:14:46
very quiet growing up and and and a
00:14:49
loner and didn't really have any
00:14:53
schooling by my choice. I'd, you know,
00:14:55
get dropped off or taken to school and
00:14:57
then walk out. Um,
00:15:01
for whatever reason, didn't cope there.
00:15:03
Um, and that followed on to, you know, I
00:15:07
was obviously big and physical. Um but
00:15:10
my mind wasn't able to cope with that.
00:15:14
You know that was a
00:15:15
>> when I think back to those times we go
00:15:17
to training we get all these gears and
00:15:20
you know S Panipo was doing all these
00:15:22
trainings and these supplements and it
00:15:25
was sometimes you know twice a day and
00:15:28
then uh jump on the plane and fly to
00:15:30
Australia.
00:15:32
It was a very very very different
00:15:35
environment from how I grew up and what
00:15:37
I knew.
00:15:38
>> And uh it was the 19s at the time. I was
00:15:42
still 16.
00:15:44
>> Um Wow.
00:15:45
>> Yeah. So
00:15:46
>> So you're 16 when you're playing with um
00:15:48
like you guys that are 18 almost 19.
00:15:51
>> Yeah. And they were they were big strong
00:15:53
guys.
00:15:53
>> That's Yeah. At that age that's a big
00:15:55
size difference.
00:15:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. I that's what I mean. I was
00:15:58
um I hadn't grown into my body yet
00:16:01
>> and the problem came when I figured out
00:16:03
how big I was and how strong I was.
00:16:06
>> Um and and I use that as my voice rather
00:16:09
than talking.
00:16:10
>> Um
00:16:12
so that became
00:16:15
uh both a savior and an issue.
00:16:20
>> Yeah. I I'm just struggling to see um
00:16:23
how you end up getting in so much
00:16:25
trouble when you had so much promise and
00:16:26
so much good stuff going on like you you
00:16:28
had this tribe with you know teammates
00:16:30
and these opportunities. So when when
00:16:33
did you start going off the rails?
00:16:36
>> Uh was it just a crew you were hanging
00:16:38
out with?
00:16:39
>> Well to be fair I I was stealing and
00:16:43
doing petty things
00:16:45
from a really young age like single
00:16:49
digit. I can't remember exactly. I'm not
00:16:51
going to say five because it's probably
00:16:52
a bit older. But, you know, before I was
00:16:55
10, I was stealing. I was stealing off
00:16:57
my family. I was stealing from shops. I
00:17:00
was um I was fighting. I was staying
00:17:04
out. You know, I kind of had no
00:17:06
boundaries.
00:17:07
>> Um that was a bit of a there was a
00:17:10
thrill thrill to me that kind of like
00:17:12
>> rebellious.
00:17:14
>> Yeah. I don't even know what I was
00:17:15
rebelling against, you know? I think it
00:17:17
just appealed to me more than the other
00:17:21
>> being good.
00:17:23
>> Yeah. Um so you know that just escalated
00:17:26
over time and it went went on to like um
00:17:30
I'd go out you know you know you ever
00:17:32
hear of that that one friend who always
00:17:34
gets into fights
00:17:36
>> and then that well that was me. I'd go
00:17:38
out and I'd be like man why are these
00:17:40
why why do I always get into fights?
00:17:42
Well well it was me. Um, so I was that
00:17:45
guy and and you know I figured out later
00:17:48
that people never took me anywhere
00:17:50
because I'd just get into a fight. You
00:17:51
know I was that guy. Um that you know
00:17:55
getting into fights, fighting in public
00:17:57
um
00:17:59
uh doing things where the police would
00:18:00
be called and then you know assaulting
00:18:03
police would would get me locked up and
00:18:05
and to court and into uh what do they
00:18:10
call it? Uh working for the working for
00:18:12
the community.
00:18:14
So, I've been serving the community for
00:18:15
years.
00:18:18
You jump in the van, you got your
00:18:20
trailer and your wheelbarrows and and
00:18:22
you go off and,
00:18:23
>> you know, you you're you're in a van
00:18:25
with like-minded people,
00:18:27
>> you know, and and you make connections
00:18:28
and uh if you're thinking the same, then
00:18:31
you know, it's easy to build friendships
00:18:33
and and from there you you you go to
00:18:36
other places or you learn things and and
00:18:38
everything just ex escalates until
00:18:42
you know you do something very serious
00:18:44
like like what I did.
00:18:47
because it seems like there's a lot of
00:18:48
like you talk about getting in fights
00:18:49
there and you know getting getting
00:18:51
locked up and going to court for a lot
00:18:52
of people that would be that would
00:18:54
potentially be the rock bottom or you
00:18:56
know the turning point but you just had
00:18:58
to sort of keep on going didn't you?
00:19:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I and and when I think
00:19:03
back if I didn't get caught
00:19:05
>> I would have kept going.
00:19:06
>> So I'm really glad that I did get
00:19:08
caught.
00:19:09
>> Um
00:19:11
>> that's right. Normally people stop when
00:19:13
they get arrested, they go to court,
00:19:14
they get sentenced to uh home D or pay a
00:19:19
fine or or or whatever it is. They're
00:19:21
like, "Okay, I'm going to change my
00:19:22
life."
00:19:23
>> But but for me, it was like,
00:19:26
"Okay, what? Now what? Oh, do that." You
00:19:30
know, just keeps escalating until
00:19:33
>> you're a slow learner.
00:19:34
>> Yeah.
00:19:35
>> Just enjoy it.
00:19:36
>> Well,
00:19:37
>> combination.
00:19:38
>> Yeah. you know, like I was I was
00:19:40
transient, you know, I wasn't settled.
00:19:42
>> You're lost.
00:19:43
>> Yeah. I had no identity. I I turned away
00:19:46
from it. I wasn't settled. I had no
00:19:49
home. I had plenty of homes, but no
00:19:51
home. No homestead.
00:19:53
>> Um I was a loner. Um this side this side
00:19:57
of the the railway tracks um
00:20:01
became like a family. you know, I'd meet
00:20:03
people, we would think the same, we
00:20:05
would connect, and off we would go. So,
00:20:10
>> um, makes sense to me.
00:20:13
>> If you, if you haven't done it, it it it
00:20:17
it's probably hard to to fathom, you
00:20:19
know, why why keep continuing. Um, which
00:20:22
I get.
00:20:24
>> Um,
00:20:25
>> and no, no, no, no judgment. I'm just
00:20:26
trying to I'm trying to understand. Um,
00:20:30
>> yeah. Um, I mean, we've only been going
00:20:32
for like 20 minutes, but um, yeah, I
00:20:34
mean, you're a really good speaker and
00:20:36
you're funny and you're articulate. Um,
00:20:39
yeah, I'm guessing it hasn't always been
00:20:41
like this and it's taken a while to to
00:20:43
get to this point.
00:20:44
>> Yeah. Well, part of my work is talking
00:20:46
about it. And talking about it actually
00:20:49
led me to the book, you know, so it
00:20:53
hasn't been anything I've shied away
00:20:54
from
00:20:55
>> getting out of prison. At first, it was
00:20:57
um,
00:20:59
>> hide away. I've been in prison.
00:21:01
>> Yeah. Shame.
00:21:02
>> Shame. Yeah. 100%. Shame on me. Shame on
00:21:05
my family. Shame on the victims. Um but
00:21:09
but now I've come to a point where it's
00:21:11
actually my strength. You know, I call
00:21:14
on those things to
00:21:16
um not only keep me here, but bring
00:21:19
others in and and and give back my
00:21:22
experiences and and bros for change. The
00:21:24
key of it is, you know, I did it hard to
00:21:26
hopefully use gun can do it easy. Um,
00:21:29
learn from me or or not.
00:21:32
>> Up to you.
00:21:33
>> But this is where it's going to end if
00:21:35
you don't learn from me.
00:21:36
>> Yeah. At least I can say, "Well, yeah,
00:21:38
you could do that, but this is what will
00:21:39
happen." And they're like, "No, I'll be
00:21:40
all right. You went to prison and you're
00:21:42
all right." I said, "Yeah, but you're
00:21:43
not me. You know, you got to do your own
00:21:44
yards."
00:21:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. Also, I mean, it's better to
00:21:48
not be in prison than be in prison,
00:21:50
right?
00:21:50
>> That's right.
00:21:51
>> Yeah.
00:21:51
>> Yeah.
00:21:51
>> So, do you remember your your first
00:21:53
armed robbery?
00:21:54
>> Yes.
00:21:54
>> Yeah. What was it? It's like service
00:21:56
station in Mount Roscoll or something.
00:21:57
>> Yep. Yep. I remember it. Um,
00:21:59
>> how old were you?
00:22:01
>> Probably 19. 19. Um,
00:22:04
>> so this is when you were playing really
00:22:05
good league.
00:22:07
>> Yeah, I actually um I actually was
00:22:10
playing really good league and then I
00:22:11
just gave it up and started fighting.
00:22:13
Um,
00:22:16
I don't even know why. I know why. It
00:22:18
was probably cuz I was just with that
00:22:20
crowd who were fighting. Um,
00:22:23
>> so I started training as a fighter which
00:22:26
took me away from league. um which is a
00:22:30
shame which kind of led me down other
00:22:33
paths.
00:22:34
>> Um yeah, I remember that night I
00:22:37
remember um just saying out loud, "Oh,
00:22:40
we should rob we should rob a
00:22:44
uh petrol station, whatever." And then
00:22:48
uh guys guys who I was with, could have
00:22:51
been two, could have been five guys,
00:22:53
can't remember. Um they they kind of
00:22:55
like
00:22:57
like, "Haha, that'll be cool. Haha." But
00:22:59
then saying it out loud actually made it
00:23:01
real.
00:23:03
And then um
00:23:05
yeah, I actually planned it. I was like,
00:23:07
"Oh, why don't we just try and do this
00:23:09
one and just uh get money and smokes and
00:23:15
um it was really it was really
00:23:18
pre-planned like how we would go in,
00:23:22
which ways we could run to, where we
00:23:25
would park the car."
00:23:27
Um
00:23:29
for me, I was like, "Yeah, quite
00:23:31
detailed and and all of that." And then
00:23:34
I remember lying in the bushes looking
00:23:36
at it and looking and I could see up and
00:23:39
down the road. It was, you know, it was
00:23:41
dark at night. I could see up and down
00:23:43
the road and you could see cars, lights,
00:23:47
and you could see clearly the the
00:23:49
service station.
00:23:51
And I remember having a few false starts
00:23:54
like trying to get up the courage to
00:23:55
actually run in there. And it took me
00:23:59
three or four goes and then, you know, a
00:24:01
car would come or someone would pull in
00:24:04
and then there was just a moment of
00:24:06
silence. No cars, no nothing. And then I
00:24:09
just got up and ran in. Um,
00:24:13
and just just the rush of adrenaline
00:24:19
uh that I got from it, I think, is what
00:24:22
fueled me to do it again to to find that
00:24:25
feeling again. What did you what did you
00:24:26
get from it in terms of um like smokes
00:24:29
or money?
00:24:30
>> Yeah, smokes and money.
00:24:31
>> How much? Do you not know how much or
00:24:33
>> what whatever was in the tool which
00:24:35
wasn't much and you know try and clear
00:24:39
out all the all the cigarettes and and
00:24:41
all that which we would
00:24:43
>> sell on for for more money later.
00:24:46
>> But
00:24:46
>> what did you want the money for? Did you
00:24:48
have addiction issues at the time or?
00:24:50
>> No, never really did. I tried tried
00:24:53
every drug a couple of times uh but
00:24:55
never really stayed on anything.
00:24:57
>> Yeah.
00:24:57
>> Uh all of these crimes I was um sober
00:25:02
sober and drug free. It was um my drug
00:25:04
was the adrenaline, you know. Um
00:25:07
>> still today I have that addiction to
00:25:09
adrenaline. I just do other things
00:25:10
instead. But
00:25:14
>> yeah, it wasn't even money at the We
00:25:17
wanted to get money and things, but we
00:25:19
wanted the thrill
00:25:20
>> and we got the thrill and that and that
00:25:23
fed us to do another one.
00:25:24
>> So, who went into that first one? Was it
00:25:26
just you that ran into the into the
00:25:27
survey?
00:25:28
>> Uh, we all did.
00:25:29
>> Yeah,
00:25:29
>> we all did.
00:25:30
>> And can you remember who who was
00:25:31
working? Um, like a guy or a girl?
00:25:34
>> It was a guy. What sort of age?
00:25:36
>> It was a guy. He was um middleaged. Um,
00:25:41
>> what do you say? What do you say when
00:25:43
you run in?
00:25:44
>> Be intimidating as [ __ ]
00:25:46
>> I can't imag I'd [ __ ] piss myself, I
00:25:49
reckon.
00:25:50
>> Yeah, I think it's I think I think the
00:25:53
dangerous part of us was the
00:25:55
recklessness.
00:25:57
And
00:25:59
uh when I look at other crimes that have
00:26:01
happened that have ended quite
00:26:03
differently,
00:26:04
>> it was the same scenario for us. We
00:26:07
never mean to
00:26:09
hurt anyone or cause. We don't know. I
00:26:13
didn't know at the time
00:26:15
>> the
00:26:17
>> the stress or the from not actually
00:26:19
touching someone, just us running in
00:26:21
there bac
00:26:24
with a gun uh and demanding
00:26:27
everything they had.
00:26:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. So that I suppose they're
00:26:31
considered like nonviolent crimes, but
00:26:33
um yeah, you're you're the villain and
00:26:37
and other people's story and uh you
00:26:39
probably remain that way for life. Like
00:26:41
[ __ ] I can't imagine how scary that
00:26:42
would be for those people
00:26:43
>> just doing their job.
00:26:44
>> Yep. And it took me years to understand
00:26:48
>> who the real victims were. um you know
00:26:51
even going to prison and people who
00:26:55
visit me you know how hard how hard it
00:26:57
is for them to to come and and visit. So
00:27:01
yeah know everywhere it's just a
00:27:04
a trail of bodies.
00:27:07
>> I use bodies cuz it's easy to see
00:27:08
victims when you like
00:27:10
>> create carnage and everyone's lying down
00:27:12
behind you you know um in different
00:27:14
ways.
00:27:14
>> Yeah. The psychological scarring. So you
00:27:16
end up doing um a total of 15 armed
00:27:19
robberies. all like that first one.
00:27:21
>> Yeah, it's uh pretty much.
00:27:23
>> Yep.
00:27:24
>> Yep. Um we got I feel like we got better
00:27:29
and more efficient and then we got the
00:27:33
novelty ran off wore off and we got we
00:27:38
we didn't get as we had to keep upping
00:27:40
it to to get the same uh adrenaline. Um
00:27:45
which was the the dangerous part. you
00:27:47
know, we were thinking about other
00:27:49
things as well. So,
00:27:51
>> other things like
00:27:52
>> bigger targets.
00:27:54
>> Okay.
00:27:54
>> Yeah. More money. Um
00:27:56
>> higher stakes.
00:27:57
>> Higher stakes, higher thrills, higher
00:27:59
risks. Um
00:28:02
yeah, higher conse consequences. Um
00:28:05
that's what that's what I mean. I'm glad
00:28:07
I got caught because um
00:28:10
>> yeah, that was just the time
00:28:14
>> in a in a in a sense in a in a weird
00:28:17
twisted sort of way. It's almost like
00:28:18
this this became your new sport. E
00:28:21
>> 100%.
00:28:22
>> Yeah, it had everything. It had
00:28:25
everything and more I would get out of
00:28:26
it. Um including
00:28:28
>> a team.
00:28:29
>> Yeah.
00:28:30
>> Your little team.
00:28:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes individual,
00:28:32
sometimes a team.
00:28:34
>> And we all had positions.
00:28:38
Did you have a coach? You didn't have a
00:28:39
coach.
00:28:40
>> Oh, we had uh we had uh team
00:28:41
supervision.
00:28:42
>> Yeah,
00:28:42
>> we had peer support.
00:28:44
>> So, did you um
00:28:47
>> So, you didn't get caught. You did 15
00:28:49
before you got caught.
00:28:51
>> Uh yeah. And we were actually uh we
00:28:53
actually dopped in um
00:28:57
cuz I was with someone and
00:29:01
I had a I had a gun on me at the time.
00:29:03
We're in a taxi and I I was going to
00:29:06
pull the taxi up, you know, and they
00:29:08
were like they were in the they were in
00:29:10
it was a van. They were in the taxi.
00:29:11
They're like and I got dobbed in on my
00:29:14
alias
00:29:14
>> which at the time was Seymour and I
00:29:16
actually saw a statement saying Seymour
00:29:18
and I kind of rounded it off to a few
00:29:20
people but
00:29:23
it's good.
00:29:24
>> I'm glad they did. Uh and from that led
00:29:27
to, you know, an investigation which led
00:29:31
them to me. Um which is also good.
00:29:35
>> Yeah. Cuz I was escalating.
00:29:38
Yep.
00:29:38
>> So did um So were all your co-offenders
00:29:41
arrested at the same time?
00:29:44
>> Um
00:29:47
potentially. I did see I did see um a
00:29:50
few guys throughout my uh IE around New
00:29:53
Zealand. Um,
00:29:55
>> what's internal inside experience?
00:29:57
>> Indoor experience.
00:29:59
>> Yeah.
00:30:02
>> Do you do you um do you do you call it
00:30:04
that like because it's funny or just cuz
00:30:06
it like saying prison or jail is just
00:30:08
more embarrassing or harder to say or
00:30:10
>> I think all of that and I think it's a
00:30:12
way to um
00:30:14
um
00:30:16
cuz you know I'll say I'll say something
00:30:18
to someone and they'll be like but if I
00:30:20
say it in a way where it's uh it's kind
00:30:23
of non-threatening. I don't know. What
00:30:24
do you think?
00:30:24
>> It's cute.
00:30:26
>> Exactly. So, it's more It's kind of more
00:30:28
approachable. It obviously wasn't like
00:30:31
that. It's just It's just what I say,
00:30:32
you know. It's um
00:30:34
>> Yeah, I'm still a big kid.
00:30:37
>> So, so the moment you get arrested, is
00:30:38
is that a dramatic thing?
00:30:41
Um,
00:30:43
I remember talking with my cousin
00:30:44
actually two months ago about it and I
00:30:48
still can't
00:30:51
you can't I I kind of black out in a
00:30:53
part of it because it's all kind of
00:30:55
surreal. Uh there was armed defenders up
00:30:58
in the trees and stuff and oh this is
00:31:00
serious surrounding the house and I'm
00:31:02
just I'm just sitting at the window and
00:31:04
um
00:31:06
this my cousin's telling me this
00:31:07
actually because it's a lady they know
00:31:10
came up the drive and she wasn't like
00:31:14
it's the police it was like killano
00:31:19
uh it's blah blah blah
00:31:21
which was a more friendly
00:31:24
>> because obviously they didn't know who I
00:31:26
and I'm running around um
00:31:28
>> running around with a gun
00:31:29
>> doing armed robberies. So, they're like,
00:31:31
"Hey, we need to take all precautions,
00:31:32
I'm guessing."
00:31:34
>> Um
00:31:35
but once they once they came in and sort
00:31:38
of went through the house and and and
00:31:41
found what they found and took me in,
00:31:44
um you know, the gigs up. I didn't I
00:31:47
didn't fight anything. I didn't um
00:31:51
struggle or try and run away. I just
00:31:53
went through the process and and I was
00:31:55
ready for my IE.
00:31:59
>> But what's what's that? So, you're how
00:32:01
old at this time? Like 20?
00:32:02
>> Uh 19 or something?
00:32:04
>> I think I just turned 20. Uh
00:32:06
>> yep. I was 20 and a half cuz I went
00:32:08
straight to men's.
00:32:10
>> Uh which was 20 at the time.
00:32:12
>> What's that like? Um that moment
00:32:13
immediately going from um you having
00:32:15
your freedom to losing it.
00:32:18
I'll tell you, it's a it's a funny story
00:32:20
to me, but I remember this was a Friday
00:32:23
and I had this bottle of Kuruba rum
00:32:25
sitting on my shelf and I was like,
00:32:27
"Yeah, I can't wait to sink into that
00:32:29
tonight." And when they arrested me and
00:32:31
took me took me to the S, I was like I
00:32:34
was like, "Damn, I really wanted to
00:32:35
drink that rum."
00:32:38
>> That Yeah, it's quite that that's quite
00:32:40
funny, but it also says a lot about, you
00:32:41
know, just your head space at the time.
00:32:43
>> That's what I say. It's like that's just
00:32:45
where I was at, you know, and um
00:32:47
>> when I think about it now, I'm like what
00:32:49
a [ __ ] [ __ ] Sorry. But you know,
00:32:51
>> it's it's podcasting.
00:32:53
>> And I was just like, man, what are you
00:32:55
what are you up to?
00:32:56
>> But
00:32:58
that's why I did all the things I did.
00:32:59
That's where I was at. That's where the
00:33:01
mind was. But um
00:33:03
>> but yeah, you know, I went for the
00:33:05
process, got they took me to um Ponibby
00:33:08
Road to the um medical center to get
00:33:12
um tested bloods and and all that. And
00:33:15
then I wasn't handcuffed either. I was
00:33:17
just kind of just kind of strolling cops
00:33:19
behind me. I think they were mufty. And
00:33:22
then they took me to Oakland Central and
00:33:25
uh locked me up. And I remember the next
00:33:27
morning quite clearly cuz um in the
00:33:30
morning they put you all in the um like
00:33:31
a big day room.
00:33:34
Um
00:33:36
and they they they open the door and
00:33:39
they they back the the van up for court
00:33:41
or the bus or
00:33:42
>> Conro, whatever they call it.
00:33:44
>> And you line up and you walk on and
00:33:46
there's big there's big island cop there
00:33:48
standing standing at the door with a
00:33:50
list. And as people are going on, it's
00:33:52
like name.
00:33:54
Oh yeah, you'll get bail. Next one.
00:33:56
Name. Yeah, good judge on. You might you
00:33:59
might go to prison. And then I remember
00:34:01
I walking up. He's like, pie, you're
00:34:04
definitely going to jail.
00:34:07
>> Oh, cuz he's in the charge robberies.
00:34:10
Yeah.
00:34:10
>> Wow.
00:34:11
>> So, I thought that was um
00:34:14
>> I I'd accepted it like, you know, I had
00:34:16
all night to kind of prepare myself not
00:34:20
even knowing what I'm preparing for, you
00:34:22
know. M.
00:34:23
>> So are you in remand before you before
00:34:25
you you caught stuff or are you just
00:34:28
caught
00:34:28
>> guilty straight to
00:34:30
>> Yeah, I went to um back then it was ACP
00:34:34
Oakland Central Remar Prison which is
00:34:36
next to Mount Eden. It was back then it
00:34:38
was this nice new flash toy, right?
00:34:41
>> Oh, that's the one that's right uh right
00:34:42
on the side of the motorway next to
00:34:43
Oakland Grammar.
00:34:45
>> Is that the one?
00:34:45
>> When you go down Lauder Road and you got
00:34:48
the castle at the back, uh this is the
00:34:50
first one,
00:34:51
>> right? You go past that into
00:34:53
>> I went there yesterday
00:34:55
>> just have a look. Um
00:34:58
>> what for?
00:34:59
>> I had I had my kids I actually told I
00:35:01
actually took my kids took my kids to
00:35:02
Parmo
00:35:05
>> and I told them I said this where you go
00:35:06
when you're naughty and they were like
00:35:08
you know asking me heaps of questions.
00:35:10
>> So I never hide from it. just be honest
00:35:12
with it and and and tell him
00:35:15
>> I didn't tell him what I did but you
00:35:16
know I was dad was naughty and
00:35:19
>> this is where you end up.
00:35:21
>> Did Did you spend time in Pim Perime?
00:35:24
>> Yeah, I was in Maxi,
00:35:25
>> right? Were you?
00:35:26
>> Yep.
00:35:27
>> Um the second time I went in,
00:35:28
>> right?
00:35:29
>> The second time. Oh my god. Um like
00:35:33
you're you're a big um and intimidating
00:35:35
dude. Um so I mean you could look after
00:35:38
yourself, but is that still a terrifying
00:35:40
place to be? Yep. I was scared. I was uh
00:35:45
it's a it's a funny scared you know when
00:35:47
you say scared you you some people think
00:35:49
oh you you know you were like quivering
00:35:51
and all that and it's like
00:35:54
scared
00:35:55
you you know like if you're going to
00:35:56
have a fight in a ring I'm sure there's
00:35:58
an element of scaredness which keeps you
00:36:00
sharp
00:36:01
>> if you know what I mean. So it was it
00:36:03
was that it was that scared of um
00:36:06
I was coming off the streets as well. So
00:36:09
there's always that you know looking
00:36:10
over your shoulder and and and
00:36:13
um
00:36:15
and keeping yourself all right but you
00:36:18
know the big boys are there. I was just
00:36:21
a petty
00:36:23
>> in the big scheme of things. Yeah.
00:36:24
>> Yeah. In the big scheme of things I was
00:36:27
on a honeymoon. You know you guys up
00:36:28
there turning up. What'd you get bro?
00:36:30
And I was like, "Oh, 6 years. What about
00:36:32
you?" "Oh, 30. Holy, you pillar of
00:36:36
strength."
00:36:38
>> Yeah. 6 years. Not even worth unpacking
00:36:40
your bag.
00:36:41
>> Yeah. They're like, "Oh, honeymoon."
00:36:45
>> You know what I mean? So, it's kind of
00:36:46
in the scheme of things. Uh I I I felt
00:36:49
like I didn't belong there.
00:36:51
>> Um
00:36:53
but, uh
00:36:55
>> obviously there's other there's people
00:36:56
there that may probably belong there.
00:36:59
Mhm.
00:37:00
>> It was uh
00:37:02
it was an experience.
00:37:04
>> Were you were you mixing with anyone
00:37:06
that was like um your high profile?
00:37:08
>> Yeah, it seems high profiles at the
00:37:10
time. Um
00:37:14
the the the the samurai guy was there,
00:37:18
>> Anthony Dixon.
00:37:19
>> Um the guy who did the executions was
00:37:23
there, the young guy, um
00:37:26
ASB and all that. Yeah,
00:37:28
>> they were they were all there um
00:37:32
>> and everyone in between.
00:37:34
>> So, um
00:37:35
>> I ran into a guy
00:37:37
>> uh I'd ran into him previously before I
00:37:39
got to Perry and then he turned up at
00:37:41
Perry and I was like, "Oh, hey, nice to
00:37:44
see you again
00:37:46
in in a way that you do." And and and uh
00:37:48
he goes, "Oh, I just got PD, which is
00:37:51
parent detention,
00:37:54
>> which means that they prevent you from
00:37:55
getting out." And I was like, "Wow." And
00:37:58
he was very
00:38:01
You wouldn't think that was the face of
00:38:04
someone who's never getting out.
00:38:05
>> Who was Who was that?
00:38:07
>> You know what? I forgot his name.
00:38:09
>> Yeah.
00:38:10
>> I actually prefer not to say the names,
00:38:11
you know.
00:38:12
>> Fair enough. Yeah. Preventative
00:38:13
detention. That's reserved for the worst
00:38:15
of the worst. E.
00:38:16
>> Yeah. But
00:38:17
>> I never had a problem with him. He was a
00:38:19
nice guy,
00:38:21
>> you know. Um
00:38:23
>> obviously wasn't. No, but there's
00:38:25
there's no no one's 100% perfect and no
00:38:27
one's 100% evil either.
00:38:29
>> Yeah.
00:38:30
>> Um
00:38:30
>> Yeah.
00:38:31
>> Yes. Just going back to the court thing
00:38:33
and then we'll we'll go back on the
00:38:34
incarceration stuff. So um so you're in
00:38:36
court. So the um so the the final
00:38:39
sentence is what? Cuz you end up serving
00:38:40
six years, eh?
00:38:41
>> Yeah. I got sentenced to um
00:38:44
4 years 10 months.
00:38:45
>> Yeah.
00:38:46
>> For those 15. I got discounted for
00:38:50
uh ownership
00:38:52
>> and youth and potential
00:38:57
being in the in the warriors. Um
00:39:01
>> and I was
00:39:05
I served 3 years 10 months of that. I
00:39:08
call it four years. Um
00:39:11
>> so I was released on uh 200
00:39:16
199
00:39:18
94 2004 2004
00:39:23
>> I was released um
00:39:28
after serving 3 years 3 years and 10
00:39:30
months which was 2/3 of my sentence
00:39:33
whatever that worked out at
00:39:35
>> um there was no good behavior was like
00:39:37
you get sentenced you serve you serve
00:39:40
twothirds of it and then you and then
00:39:41
you get released to some conditions and
00:39:44
I got
00:39:46
I got 350 bucks steps to freedom uh when
00:39:50
I got out and I think I just pissed it
00:39:53
up. I got released from uh in
00:39:58
>> central North Island.
00:40:00
>> Yeah. at Turangi
00:40:01
>> M
00:40:01
>> underneath Mount Uru Peru and got picked
00:40:05
up and my mate he came down on the V8
00:40:08
and and did a big we did a big wheelie
00:40:10
on the way out and then we're off, you
00:40:12
know, and it was
00:40:15
Yeah. And I was out and I I got out
00:40:20
with an ego um with more connections
00:40:25
with um
00:40:27
the same attitude that I went in with,
00:40:30
you know, I didn't I had I hadn't
00:40:32
matured. I hadn't grown up. I just met
00:40:34
some more people.
00:40:36
>> And And you you were bigger. I've heard
00:40:37
you describe yourself as um looking like
00:40:39
a stop sign because you've done so many
00:40:41
pre-ups.
00:40:42
Well, that's that's relevance to missing
00:40:44
leg day,
00:40:45
>> right?
00:40:49
>> Yeah.
00:40:50
>> Yeah.
00:40:51
>> Yeah. I So, you get you get that
00:40:53
sentence. Um, and at that age, four
00:40:56
years is a long time, right? That's that
00:40:58
represents like 20% of the life that
00:41:00
you've already already lived. Um, so it
00:41:02
seems like an impossibly long time
00:41:06
when that door shuts and logs.
00:41:09
Yeah. What's that moment like?
00:41:12
Uh the very first time I got shut behind
00:41:15
a cell in in prison
00:41:19
that it was it was the it was ah you
00:41:23
know and I came back to the rum cuz it
00:41:27
was the next day and I oh that would
00:41:30
have been the Friday actually I got
00:41:31
locked up in prison so I would have got
00:41:32
arrested on Thursday Wednesday or
00:41:34
Thursday
00:41:35
>> but
00:41:36
yeah again and then I was like oh well
00:41:39
I'll start training
00:41:41
So yeah, just started doing press ups
00:41:44
and um sparring in cell and um
00:41:49
learning learning inside life cuz
00:41:53
there's a lot to learn. You got to learn
00:41:55
everything without asking questions.
00:41:58
>> What do you mean? Can you elaborate on
00:42:00
that?
00:42:00
>> Well,
00:42:02
you you got to just stick to your own
00:42:03
business. You know, you don't want to
00:42:04
you don't want to walk in and you see
00:42:06
something going on there and you walk
00:42:07
over like, "Oh, what's going on over
00:42:08
here?" and then you know it can get you
00:42:10
into trouble. So you just kind of you
00:42:13
worry about yourself, you mind your own
00:42:14
business and um you know you should you
00:42:17
should be okay really. Yeah.
00:42:21
Yeah. So you know it's usually I knew
00:42:23
when I first went in I met I met a guy I
00:42:25
played league with years ago and um he
00:42:28
kind of he kind of gave me a rundown on
00:42:31
you know oh yeah you're all good you
00:42:33
know hang out over here and oh we're
00:42:36
going for a game of crash and and all
00:42:38
that. So,
00:42:38
>> what's crash?
00:42:40
>> Um, it's like leg
00:42:42
in in four concrete walls or it's like
00:42:45
league without passes.
00:42:50
You can pass. It's um
00:42:53
Yeah, you just kind of run. I learned
00:42:55
very quickly to stay in the middle
00:42:58
because if you're down the side you can
00:42:59
get like pushed into the wall or I did I
00:43:02
remember at the mount in Mount Eden in
00:43:04
the um south yard on one side there's
00:43:07
like metal pillars that go up and
00:43:09
there's uh like a tin roof and and sort
00:43:13
of seats and people can sit under there.
00:43:15
There's a phone.
00:43:17
I remember one guy, he was like he he
00:43:19
broke a tackle and was running up and
00:43:22
passing the pillars
00:43:24
and then I don't know where it came
00:43:26
from. Someone hit him and then he just
00:43:29
hit the puller with his head and he
00:43:31
shook the whole roof. He was like, you
00:43:34
know, like if you run into metal
00:43:37
and I was like, "What?" He got up. I was
00:43:39
like, "Wow, stay in the middle."
00:43:42
>> Where where is the fun in this game? We
00:43:45
>> I think it's just another measure, you
00:43:47
know. It's uh
00:43:50
>> Yeah, it's fun when you're on the other
00:43:52
end of it.
00:43:54
>> Oh, yeah.
00:43:55
>> But those first few nights on yourself,
00:43:57
like um Yeah. Yeah. How like are you
00:43:59
homesick? Like are you feeling
00:44:01
devastated?
00:44:03
>> I think you I think you come to terms. I
00:44:05
think you always miss
00:44:08
you miss things. Uh where I was it was
00:44:11
it was fully enclosed concrete. There
00:44:13
was no grass. It was uh fake light and
00:44:17
air con. So you get pale. Um
00:44:22
you miss the grass. I missed the grass.
00:44:26
Um
00:44:27
>> yeah. And I was there. I went from there
00:44:29
to Mount Eden and back to there to serve
00:44:31
my sentence in the rem prison in the
00:44:33
kitchen.
00:44:34
>> Um
00:44:36
so yeah, I was there for most of my
00:44:39
sentence. It wasn't until I got to the
00:44:41
last few months I was like, "Send me to
00:44:45
the camps. Bit of freedom." Um,
00:44:49
so yeah, I mean it's
00:44:52
it's, you know, it is what it is. If
00:44:54
that's a thing,
00:44:56
>> you just uh you adapt. You adapt and you
00:44:59
can um make the most of it or you can
00:45:02
feel sorry for yourself and stay in your
00:45:04
cell.
00:45:07
>> Yeah. There's a saying that I've heard,
00:45:08
but
00:45:09
I I don't fully understand it and I
00:45:11
suppose you only would fully understand
00:45:12
it if you've been incarcerated. Excuse
00:45:15
me. The saying is something like um you
00:45:17
have to serve your time or your time
00:45:18
serves you.
00:45:20
>> Have you heard that saying? Do you know
00:45:21
what it means?
00:45:21
>> Yeah.
00:45:22
>> How what would that mean to you?
00:45:26
>> Uh stick to yourself.
00:45:28
>> Do your own time. Don't worry about
00:45:30
what's happening over here. If you start
00:45:32
worrying about someone else's time, then
00:45:35
>> you might get caught up in someone
00:45:37
else's time.
00:45:39
Um,
00:45:40
sometimes it's hard to do when you're
00:45:43
you're in a enclosed in a you know, you
00:45:46
got a captive audience and you're in a
00:45:48
uh a block of
00:45:52
20 to 60 guys that you see. They say
00:45:56
5 years with your cellmates, like 15
00:45:58
years with your family
00:45:59
>> cuz you there's no escape. M um
00:46:04
well I can agree with you know I got
00:46:06
some really tight bonds with some some
00:46:08
good mates um from there.
00:46:12
>> Is it is it a violent place?
00:46:14
>> Can be.
00:46:15
>> Yeah.
00:46:16
>> I saw a lot. Um I didn't do a lot.
00:46:20
>> You managed to avoid it.
00:46:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was uh I just worked I was
00:46:24
in the kitchen most of the time which
00:46:26
was great because I wasn't hungry. I was
00:46:29
I was starving in in up in Maxi.
00:46:33
>> Um
00:46:33
>> yeah, because you're you're you're a big
00:46:35
unit. I mean the um I'm guessing the
00:46:37
portions are quite small.
00:46:39
>> They're everything you need to survive,
00:46:41
>> right? Nothing more.
00:46:43
>> And nothing more.
00:46:44
>> Nothing more.
00:46:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. I watched my kids like this
00:46:49
morning. They had cocoa pops and toast.
00:46:50
And I remember
00:46:52
I remember in in PM it was uh two toast
00:46:57
maybe three. and two we pick and that
00:47:00
would sustain you till unless you had
00:47:03
snacks which you could purchase which
00:47:04
you know
00:47:05
>> not everyone did.
00:47:07
>> Um
00:47:10
working in the kitchen obviously has its
00:47:11
perks.
00:47:12
>> Um
00:47:15
yeah, I tell you what, you know, I
00:47:16
learned I've been to a lot of uh
00:47:19
educational um institutions since the
00:47:23
most I ever learned was in prison. M
00:47:25
>> the most I the most I use in my life
00:47:28
today is from prison
00:47:30
>> and in in terms of good stuff.
00:47:32
>> Yeah. Like not not like people I met and
00:47:35
and tips and tricks of how to
00:47:37
>> rob banks or anything. Yeah. It's more
00:47:39
about um
00:47:40
>> life skills and things.
00:47:41
>> Life skills,
00:47:43
bigger picture, looking at the bigger
00:47:45
picture.
00:47:46
Um,
00:47:48
you know, I used to be quite um I get
00:47:51
quite aggravated and agitated quite
00:47:54
easily. Now I'm very Now it's hard or I
00:47:59
avoid it. So if I start getting if I
00:48:02
feel like there's a situation where I'm
00:48:04
getting worked up, I'll just totally
00:48:06
disappear. M um that's that's my
00:48:09
strategy because there you know you're
00:48:11
for me it was happy happy friendly big
00:48:14
kid or smash your hedon so I had to just
00:48:18
I had to just disappear over here.
00:48:21
>> Yeah. I mean there's no doubt about it.
00:48:22
You've done the work. That's the thing.
00:48:24
No one can no one you have to change.
00:48:27
Like no one else can do it for you.
00:48:29
>> That's right. Yeah.
00:48:30
>> Um I suppose that's like going back to
00:48:32
what you were saying at the beginning
00:48:33
with Bros for Change. It's like, you
00:48:34
know, the these these bros have to make
00:48:37
the change themselves. You can give them
00:48:38
the tips and the tools, but they got to
00:48:40
do it.
00:48:40
>> It's the old saying, you know, you got
00:48:42
all these uh take all these horses down
00:48:44
to the water, but if they don't want to
00:48:46
drink,
00:48:46
>> 100%
00:48:47
>> they're not going to drink.
00:48:48
>> Yeah.
00:48:48
>> So, same same principle, same concept.
00:48:51
>> What was um something or some things you
00:48:54
saw inside or experience that um people
00:48:56
on the outside would find it hard to
00:48:57
believe?
00:48:59
Uh, so I I didn't see, but I heard a guy
00:49:02
get beat to death and I saw them I saw
00:49:05
the body get carried out the next
00:49:06
morning. Um, it was weird to me because
00:49:10
no one came to help him. We couldn't, we
00:49:13
were locked up,
00:49:14
>> but we could hear it. Uh,
00:49:17
and then yeah, we stayed locked up in
00:49:18
the morning and they just carried him
00:49:20
out and uh, yeah, never saw him again.
00:49:22
And
00:49:24
the guy who did it, I feel like they
00:49:26
took him straight after or not long
00:49:29
after and we never saw him again either.
00:49:31
So obviously went up to Maxi or
00:49:33
something.
00:49:34
>> Um
00:49:37
yeah, I seen seen, you know, a lot of
00:49:39
fights and and standovers and
00:49:43
um other bits and pieces. M
00:49:46
>> I mean I'm guess the stories that are
00:49:49
there because they happen you know they
00:49:51
didn't just appear from anywhere. all
00:49:52
the stories that that you hear
00:49:55
>> um they they generally what goes on
00:49:59
>> but also um I had a really good
00:50:04
kind of maybe my first sense of really
00:50:06
good camaraderie around around
00:50:10
um
00:50:12
the boys who were you know we we all we
00:50:15
all trained together we worked together
00:50:17
we lived together we looked after each
00:50:19
other
00:50:21
>> it was amazing
00:50:22
you know, um I loved I loved uh when I
00:50:26
was on the when I was on the uh on the
00:50:29
camps
00:50:31
on a winter morning underneath Uru Peu,
00:50:35
make a nice jug of tea and stand at the
00:50:37
door and you know, you see the mountain
00:50:40
appearing
00:50:42
and amazing.
00:50:43
>> Um
00:50:45
as the boys would wake up, morning bro,
00:50:48
you know, cup of tea. So
00:50:52
>> that was that was really cool.
00:50:53
>> You're painting a really nice picture of
00:50:55
it.
00:50:56
>> Yeah.
00:50:57
>> I had another guy on the podcast called
00:50:59
Ben Padawa. He's like one of New
00:51:01
Zealand's top farmers. When he was 15,
00:51:02
he got involved with a couple of mates
00:51:04
with a and they end up with a like a
00:51:05
manslaughter charge.
00:51:07
>> Yeah.
00:51:07
>> Um and he Yeah. He turned his life
00:51:10
around in there. It was in um Ringapo
00:51:11
that he got on a prison farm.
00:51:14
>> That was his introduction to farming.
00:51:15
And he's um like changed his life
00:51:16
around. Um yeah, he he said similar sort
00:51:20
of thing. Of course wouldn't want to go
00:51:22
wouldn't want to go back and is a
00:51:23
completely different person now. But um
00:51:25
>> I think that's what you want to hear. E
00:51:26
like yeah someone reforming and making
00:51:29
the changes.
00:51:30
>> It's the same like
00:51:31
>> just cuz it was like that for me doesn't
00:51:33
mean it was like that for anyone else
00:51:34
>> or will be like that for anyone else. Um
00:51:37
>> that was just me and and my mind and and
00:51:40
how I appre I appreciated the small
00:51:42
things. I remember those things cuz it's
00:51:43
what I appreciated.
00:51:44
>> Mhm.
00:51:45
>> Uh yeah. Yeah, I remember the first
00:51:47
night though when I got there. I I slept
00:51:51
in a fetal position on the wall heater.
00:51:54
It was that cold. A little square
00:51:56
heater. I remember just like stuck up
00:51:59
against it.
00:52:00
>> Uh but I became used to it and got some
00:52:04
extra extra blankets and yeah, got
00:52:07
sorted.
00:52:07
>> Yeah. Can't you just um ring the room
00:52:09
service bell?
00:52:10
>> No. Yeah.
00:52:12
Pick the phone up.
00:52:14
>> Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. What is what is one
00:52:18
thing or or the things that the public
00:52:19
get completely wrong about prison
00:52:21
because I feel like there is this sort
00:52:22
of perception in some ways with some
00:52:23
jails. I remember when um the Spring
00:52:25
Hill jail was being built.
00:52:26
>> Um and if you listen to Talkback, you
00:52:29
think it's like a like a Club Med or
00:52:31
something.
00:52:32
>> People talk about how it's like a like a
00:52:34
holiday resort.
00:52:35
>> Yeah. Well, I I went to um Nafa Prison
00:52:37
when it was first first built, just
00:52:39
opened and uh for me it was uh heated
00:52:45
head floors on suite.
00:52:48
Um not quite the on suite you'd get in
00:52:50
the Airbnb. Um
00:52:53
but
00:52:55
it was nice. Uh had a running track
00:52:58
around the outside. It had a river
00:53:00
running through it. Um we did make a
00:53:02
slip and slide one day.
00:53:05
Uh we used uh we stole the commercial
00:53:08
spray wipe out of the kitchen and um and
00:53:11
tipped it down the hill and then hosed
00:53:12
it off. And then we all ended up with
00:53:14
burns all over our body from from the
00:53:17
raw spray wipe. And we went to medical
00:53:20
and they laughed at us and they said
00:53:23
that's your punishment. You got to deal
00:53:24
with those burns. Um
00:53:27
probably painting another fun picture,
00:53:29
but
00:53:29
>> yeah. Where is this jail? This one
00:53:31
sounds amazing. The one with the
00:53:32
running. You had me at running track.
00:53:33
>> Yeah. Yafa Mafa in um Yafa Springs
00:53:38
>> north north of Fang.
00:53:42
>> Yeah. Um
00:53:44
but you know that's
00:53:47
that's after the
00:53:50
there's you know a lot of dangerous men
00:53:52
in there. There's uh you know you're
00:53:54
getting you're getting told what to do
00:53:55
when when to get locked down, when to
00:53:59
open up. there's always a threat of um
00:54:02
violence and um standovers and and and
00:54:06
all that things you you'd think of as
00:54:08
well. Um
00:54:10
I guess
00:54:12
uh all of that was there. I just
00:54:14
remember
00:54:16
try to remember
00:54:18
the good, you know, take the best out of
00:54:20
it and what I learned. And I remember
00:54:22
one stage in my leg I I I remember
00:54:25
thinking to myself, well, I'm here. I
00:54:27
might as well take it for granted and
00:54:30
get everything I can out of it. And then
00:54:33
I ended up doing a um sport recreation
00:54:36
paper at Northland Polytech um in NAFA
00:54:41
and I met a guy who bought me into
00:54:45
Oakland Hotel and Chef's Training School
00:54:47
where I became chef afterwards. Um
00:54:52
so all those things came out of um
00:54:54
prison and
00:54:57
other things can come out of prison too
00:54:58
but depends what you take out of prison
00:55:01
or or Yeah. So it's kind of that's just
00:55:04
my story you know everyone else is
00:55:06
different.
00:55:06
>> Yeah.
00:55:08
>> What about courses and stuff? You so you
00:55:10
did all the courses that were available
00:55:11
to you. Did you do anger management?
00:55:13
Just something you said before. It
00:55:14
sounded like you got, you know, you you
00:55:15
got control of your your um your anger
00:55:18
like you you said something before about
00:55:19
learning to walk away from things and
00:55:21
>> Well, I had to otherwise um and just
00:55:24
keep fighting.
00:55:25
>> Yeah. But did you do a course for that
00:55:27
or no? Did you just
00:55:28
>> I did do I did do a straight thinking
00:55:31
program in prison and um at the time I
00:55:34
did it so I could get out.
00:55:35
>> Mhm.
00:55:37
>> Later on um those things pop up and I'm
00:55:41
like, "Oh, I remember that." M
00:55:43
>> and I actually met the lady who wrote
00:55:45
was part of writing it. She was my boss
00:55:48
uh later on uh which was cool and she
00:55:51
goes, "Oh, so you've obviously taken
00:55:53
some on board." I was like, "Well, you
00:55:54
you employed me."
00:55:57
>> So, um yeah, when you when you
00:56:01
eventually get released, um yeah, how do
00:56:03
you rebuild instead of returning to to
00:56:06
what you know?
00:56:07
Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing
00:56:10
is um I was lucky, you know, I've got
00:56:12
heaps of uncles and cousins and aunties
00:56:14
and mom and dad and
00:56:17
um I was given a place to stay with my
00:56:21
uncle. Um amazing amazing house and
00:56:25
facility and I got uh
00:56:31
sorry this is the second time I got out.
00:56:34
First time I got out, I stayed with my
00:56:36
sister and my sister's too nice and you
00:56:40
know, I do what I want and and because
00:56:44
I'd served 2/3 of my sentence, there's
00:56:46
no
00:56:48
there's no followup. You just get out.
00:56:50
>> Oh, no parole conditions.
00:56:52
>> Yeah, you just get out. And so, um, I
00:56:56
just got out and I got out to, well, you
00:56:59
know, had she gave me a room at her
00:57:01
house and, uh,
00:57:05
I met the guy from the chef's course and
00:57:07
I went and did the chef's course and I
00:57:09
did amazing at it
00:57:12
and I took that opportunity and then
00:57:14
soon as that course finished, I I had
00:57:17
idle hands again. So, I was a bit bored.
00:57:19
Um
00:57:22
and then
00:57:24
yeah, met up with some some people and
00:57:29
got the itch again and did did some more
00:57:32
um robberies
00:57:34
like 6 months after I got out.
00:57:37
So um got caught straight away and and
00:57:40
straight to prison. They they made it a
00:57:42
recall. So got another two years and
00:57:45
they sent me straight to maximum.
00:57:48
Oh, so that's when you go to uh Pereo.
00:57:51
Yeah.
00:57:51
>> Yeah. They're like, "You're going to
00:57:52
Maxi?" I was like, "That's another
00:57:54
level." So,
00:57:56
>> yeah,
00:57:57
>> man. Why Why did you You've had time to
00:57:59
reflect. What? Why did you do that?
00:58:02
Why did you go back
00:58:05
>> when you got released after that first
00:58:07
stunt?
00:58:07
>> Yeah.
00:58:08
>> Why? It seemed like you had so much
00:58:09
going for you at that point. You done
00:58:10
You done a Oh, no. Oh, is this when you
00:58:12
you came out and you were bigger and
00:58:13
stronger and Oh, okay.
00:58:15
>> Met some people. So, it was always going
00:58:17
to happen,
00:58:19
>> I think. So, I think it was inevitable.
00:58:21
Um, it was amazing I lasted that that
00:58:24
long. I remember uh I was working at a
00:58:27
place and the guy goes, "What are you
00:58:30
looking at or or what are you doing?"
00:58:32
And I was like, "Ah, just making myself
00:58:35
aware of the surroundings." He's like,
00:58:36
"What do you mean?" He's like, "Oh, just
00:58:37
checking out the streets and why is
00:58:39
that?" Like, "Well, you never know where
00:58:41
you need to go." And he's like, "What do
00:58:43
you mean?" I like, well, you know, you
00:58:46
you just never know. That's just what I
00:58:49
was thinking. You needed to know where
00:58:51
you could go, exits
00:58:53
for no reason whatsoever. Like, it was
00:58:55
an amazing place, but it was just a mind
00:58:57
frame. Um,
00:58:58
>> so you're just wired with a like a
00:59:00
criminal mindset.
00:59:01
>> Just wired. Yeah.
00:59:02
>> Yeah. Just wired. And, you know, you
00:59:04
spend four years in prison and you come
00:59:06
out, you think differently no matter
00:59:08
what. Um,
00:59:10
>> you you you you're desensitized a bit.
00:59:13
You're seeing things you maybe shouldn't
00:59:15
have and you you met some people that
00:59:18
you probably shouldn't and
00:59:21
>> Yeah. You just
00:59:24
>> Yeah. Well, something like the um um
00:59:27
horrific story you described before
00:59:29
about like hearing someone in another
00:59:30
another cell getting beaten to death. Um
00:59:33
yeah,
00:59:34
I I don't know if you can ever be the
00:59:36
same again after hearing something like
00:59:38
that. Like
00:59:40
>> Yeah. At the time I was like ah I was
00:59:43
like oh it was worse when it was
00:59:45
happening because you could hear him
00:59:46
wailing.
00:59:48
>> That's why I was like man why is no one
00:59:49
coming?
00:59:50
>> Um and you just kind of you just kind of
00:59:54
uh go to sleep and then you wake up
00:59:58
you you your body clock wakes you up
01:00:00
when the door opens
01:00:02
>> and then uh so you wake up and then oh
01:00:04
the door's not open. And so you have a
01:00:06
look out the out the little window and
01:00:07
then you see the body getting
01:00:10
getting carried out and then you're
01:00:11
like, "Oh, he didn't he didn't make it."
01:00:14
Kind of. You'd think overnight they'd
01:00:16
gone and helped him, but they didn't.
01:00:19
>> So that actually doesn't play. Uh
01:00:25
maybe it does unconsciously, but I don't
01:00:27
really that doesn't weigh in on my
01:00:30
thoughts really. M like
01:00:34
>> Yeah,
01:00:34
>> that was his leg.
01:00:36
>> Yeah.
01:00:41
>> So, you get the second stint. And then
01:00:43
is is it during that time that you you
01:00:45
come to some sort of internal
01:00:46
realization that you got to change?
01:00:48
>> Uh as soon as I got to the cop shop or
01:00:50
soon as I got to the sal when I got
01:00:52
picked up, taken down. The dude lied
01:00:56
too. I had a bang knee from uh oh
01:00:59
actually when I got out I played barard
01:01:01
cup um rugby league and I did my
01:01:08
medial MCL or something. So it was bung
01:01:13
and then uh the cop I remember he took
01:01:16
me in and he oh this is the guy I could
01:01:19
see him uh I could hardly walk let alone
01:01:22
run. He goes yeah he was sweaty like
01:01:24
he's been running and he's puffy. I was
01:01:26
like, "Where you at, bro? You're full of
01:01:29
shit." Anyway, I did it. So, um I uh
01:01:35
yeah, I got locked up uh that day and
01:01:38
straight away I was like, "Oh, well,
01:01:41
want to start training." So, yeah, just
01:01:43
started training. Um
01:01:47
but actually training um that whole
01:01:51
stint was just full on full on training.
01:01:54
M
01:01:55
>> um
01:01:55
>> physical or mental cuz it seems like
01:01:57
you're doing physical training the the
01:01:58
first stunt but it was the mental
01:01:59
training that you needed to do, right?
01:02:01
>> Yeah, it was it was physical which um
01:02:06
uh helped with my mental and I I was
01:02:09
kind of like cuz I've been there now so
01:02:11
I'm going back. I know the environment
01:02:13
kind of and it's a new environment at
01:02:15
Maxi, but I want to be
01:02:19
I I was focused, you know, and um yeah,
01:02:22
I didn't stray for for two years. I
01:02:25
think I I think I did two years. I
01:02:27
served six years all up, so it must be
01:02:28
another two years.
01:02:29
>> Yeah.
01:02:30
>> And then um
01:02:32
>> yeah, went through the motions of of
01:02:34
that. Um, and when I got out, I was
01:02:39
that's I was quite a lot bigger, a lot
01:02:41
less fat, you know. Um, I got out, I
01:02:45
remember I got sent back to Mount Eden
01:02:49
to get released and I put my clothes on
01:02:52
when I got arrested and they were tight
01:02:53
and in all the right places.
01:02:55
>> Not like now, but uh remember the big
01:02:59
green door at Mount Eden? Uh, they
01:03:01
opened the door and I had my bag and and
01:03:03
my clothes on and I kind of stepped over
01:03:07
the door and out into the open and then
01:03:09
they shut the door behind me and then I
01:03:11
was like waiting for my dad to pick me
01:03:13
up and then he pulled up. He's like,
01:03:16
"How's it? Get in." And then we went for
01:03:20
breakfast at his mate's house. And then
01:03:21
um I got 350 bucks again. And I went and
01:03:24
bought some training shoes, some Essex,
01:03:27
and I um it was Wednesday. And then I
01:03:31
went to um training on Thursday night.
01:03:34
And then I played on TV on Monday.
01:03:37
>> Wow.
01:03:37
>> On Bar Monday Night League on Moldy TV.
01:03:40
Um
01:03:42
and there was about five or six cops in
01:03:44
that team.
01:03:45
>> Mhm.
01:03:45
>> And they were awesome, you know. I I
01:03:48
even had my um my Mount Eden woolen
01:03:51
jersey on at first training and um
01:03:55
to me they didn't bat an eyelid you know
01:03:56
I was just in the team
01:03:58
>> I didn't know whether Bernie or or
01:04:00
anyone had a word to them or not but
01:04:02
>> who's Bernie
01:04:03
>> uh Bernie Pinara he was a coach at the
01:04:05
time being my coach many teams many
01:04:08
years
01:04:10
>> um
01:04:12
yeah so you like uh or actually when I
01:04:15
remember the the trainer he was like oh
01:04:17
you might you might not be used to these
01:04:18
kind of trainings um being in prison
01:04:22
and I remember I was like doing the
01:04:23
trainings I was like is this it you know
01:04:28
must be so nice not running into
01:04:29
aluminium poles
01:04:30
>> yeah
01:04:32
I remember just uh every night we'd do
01:04:35
lap just every night running around um
01:04:38
weights we would wrestle uh we were in
01:04:41
the kitchen so we were like well fed
01:04:44
>> um and we had heaps of rest So food,
01:04:47
food, train, rest, good, good recipe,
01:04:49
right?
01:04:50
>> M
01:04:51
>> um
01:04:53
yeah, end of the season, second or
01:04:56
third, I think I played three games at
01:04:58
the end of the season. Um
01:05:02
and then was just fizzing, fizzing,
01:05:04
fizzing for league, ready to go. And
01:05:08
um
01:05:10
yeah, like like the hardest thing the
01:05:13
hardest thing is actually living out
01:05:15
here many you know it's so easy just to
01:05:18
go back to prison. It's really hard to
01:05:21
stay on the outside. Um
01:05:22
>> can you can you explain that for anyone
01:05:25
that's listening to this? Um,
01:05:29
like having your freedom take taken away
01:05:31
seems like one of the worst things
01:05:32
imaginable. It seems like a place that
01:05:34
once you've once you've been there,
01:05:35
you'd never want to go back.
01:05:37
It is. But then when you get out, you've
01:05:42
got responsibilities
01:05:44
and and bills. And
01:05:48
you when you're in there, you got you're
01:05:50
warm, you're dry, you're fed. Um, and
01:05:53
when you get out, you got to be an
01:05:55
adult, you know? You got to um,
01:05:57
especially if you got I I didn't have
01:05:59
kids or or partner, so it was just me.
01:06:03
Um, I only had to look after me and and
01:06:07
that was hard. Um,
01:06:10
all the people I'd met in six years,
01:06:13
the last six years of my life, uh, you
01:06:16
run into them, they contact you, you you
01:06:19
meet you meet up with them and and
01:06:21
there's temptation and it's so easy just
01:06:24
to like do that one more
01:06:26
>> just to set you up.
01:06:29
>> But, um, for some reason I didn't and
01:06:34
and I I I call on Rugby League for that.
01:06:36
And
01:06:38
soon as that but I went to training and
01:06:41
then I played on Monday night league and
01:06:43
then they took put me on a plane and
01:06:45
sent me to Canary to play and then we
01:06:47
came back and played Odoo
01:06:50
and then after that was it was the
01:06:52
season over and I was like oh now what?
01:06:53
And Bernie's like moldies
01:06:56
moldies. So straight into training for
01:06:58
Oakland Moldies something to focus on
01:07:01
you know um something to keep me going.
01:07:04
Um
01:07:08
I think that I was lucky in that that
01:07:10
aspect. Rugby league was a passion of
01:07:12
mine, you know, and it was that revival
01:07:14
of that that kept me over here rather
01:07:17
than going back. So
01:07:19
>> I call it, you know, rugby league. It
01:07:21
really did save my life.
01:07:23
>> Gave you a purpose.
01:07:24
>> Yeah.
01:07:25
>> Reason to get out of bed in the morning.
01:07:26
So how old are you at this point? Like
01:07:27
mid 20s.
01:07:28
>> 26.
01:07:29
>> 26.
01:07:31
So, so there was there was no chance at
01:07:32
this point of um like becoming like part
01:07:34
of the Warriors or anything. Had you
01:07:36
just lost too many too many years?
01:07:38
>> Well, actually uh Bernie goes, "Oh, they
01:07:41
got this new uh New South Wales Cup
01:07:44
team, which is like Warriors reserves
01:07:46
trial. You should go." I was like,
01:07:48
"Whatever." Anyway, I went and I made
01:07:51
the team and um so I got out in October
01:07:55
and the trial was I don't know maybe
01:07:57
maybe January or something and then went
01:08:00
straight into like two trainings a day.
01:08:03
Um but they traveled every second week.
01:08:07
They followed the Warriors kind of thing
01:08:09
>> which I couldn't. Um
01:08:11
>> Oh, you could only do home games.
01:08:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:08:16
>> Travel restrictions.
01:08:17
>> Yeah. So, um yeah, I remember um one of
01:08:20
the guys from Norway is like, "Can you
01:08:22
travel?" And I was like, "You're not."
01:08:26
And he's like, "Oh, that's a shame
01:08:28
because could be different." Um
01:08:32
man, I think about that all the time.
01:08:34
And I think cuz my I only had one
01:08:35
aspiration. Well, I had three. I got I
01:08:39
met the other two. The last one was to
01:08:41
play NRL.
01:08:43
>> Uh which I didn't quite make it. Uh, the
01:08:46
first two was like owner WRX and
01:08:49
Victoria's Secret Wife. So, I got those
01:08:52
two,
01:08:56
>> very simple.
01:08:57
>> Yeah. So, you um Yeah. You're married
01:09:00
and you got kids now. You mentioned
01:09:01
before cuz we're recording this during
01:09:03
the school holidays and you took your
01:09:05
kids um past the jail. Yeah. How old are
01:09:07
your kids?
01:09:08
>> I got four. So, four, six, eight, 15.
01:09:12
>> So, so what do they know about your
01:09:14
past? What do you tell them?
01:09:16
>> Um, I answer their questions in a um in
01:09:21
an age appropriate answer.
01:09:23
>> So, I never say I never hide from it,
01:09:27
but I don't give them the the blunt
01:09:29
truth on that. I just tell them, you
01:09:31
know, dad was naughty.
01:09:33
>> Dad some things.
01:09:35
I took them up to Perry yesterday and
01:09:38
showed them where I used to live and
01:09:39
Mount Eden where I used to live and they
01:09:42
asked me heaps of questions and I
01:09:43
answered it and then like I'm still the
01:09:46
dad they know you know
01:09:47
>> we went around the odd hood hood today
01:09:49
and showed them different houses and
01:09:51
where my dad lived and my grandmother
01:09:53
and
01:09:54
>> what sort of questions do they ask about
01:09:56
jail?
01:09:58
>> Well, when we got to Parriers obviously
01:10:01
>> it's an it's an intimidating place.
01:10:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. I look at it now and I
01:10:04
think, man,
01:10:05
>> how'd I get in there?
01:10:07
>> Oh, that's right.
01:10:08
>> Front gate.
01:10:09
>> Yeah, front gate
01:10:11
>> on the on the on the into jail bus.
01:10:13
>> Uber for Jay.
01:10:15
One way. No. Um and then uh I told them,
01:10:20
"Oh, yep. Dad used to stay there." And
01:10:21
they're like, "Did you get food?"
01:10:25
Just cuz it looks like it's just fully
01:10:27
so just the way their mind works, you
01:10:29
know? And I was like, "Actually, I used
01:10:31
to cook the food." Ah, and then it went
01:10:33
on to what kind of food did you cook?
01:10:36
>> So, just kind of
01:10:37
>> kids questions.
01:10:38
>> Kids questions there. But, you know, as
01:10:40
they grow old, they'll they'll develop
01:10:41
it into what it really is. But, um,
01:10:43
>> well, you got this book now, so they
01:10:45
they you can just when they're old
01:10:46
enough here, read the book.
01:10:47
>> Read the book. Read the book, bro.
01:10:48
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:50
>> Yeah. I've always been I've always been
01:10:52
open and honest with them, man. and the
01:10:54
boys I work with um that's been actually
01:10:57
the strength you know it gives them
01:10:59
something to our tagline for bro change
01:11:01
you know real people real talk real
01:11:03
change
01:11:04
>> so real people as in you know we've done
01:11:06
some [ __ ] too real talk as in completely
01:11:09
honest and real changes in we want you
01:11:12
to actually change we don't want to just
01:11:13
like take a box and shake your hand and
01:11:16
have a have a nice life
01:11:17
>> you know we want you to actually
01:11:21
>> what what you know whatever the change
01:11:22
it Just be happy, man. Enjoy your life.
01:11:25
Do whatever you want.
01:11:26
>> Yeah.
01:11:26
>> And not be not be a puppet. Cut those
01:11:28
strings off and do what you want.
01:11:30
>> Um, when you meet your wife, like when
01:11:33
when do you tell her about your past?
01:11:37
>> Uh, I can't actually remember the time.
01:11:39
I do remember like knocking on the door
01:11:41
at her house
01:11:43
>> and uh her mom answered and her mom said
01:11:45
to me later at one of my birthdays, she
01:11:48
goes, "I remember when you knocked on
01:11:49
the door." And I was like, "Oh my gosh."
01:11:52
She was like quite intimidated. But
01:11:55
>> you're really you are a really imposing
01:11:57
dude.
01:11:58
>> I wouldn't want to play a game of run it
01:11:59
straight with you. Put it that way.
01:12:01
>> Bit old now. Bit old now. But um
01:12:05
>> yeah, I mean my wife's she's polar
01:12:07
opposite of me, you know. She's really
01:12:09
nice.
01:12:10
>> She's um she's uh got Dutch Dutch
01:12:14
descent. Um Christian upbringing.
01:12:18
um
01:12:20
very caring, very giving. Um yeah,
01:12:24
everyone's like, "Bro, how what does she
01:12:26
see in you?" You know, and I think uh I
01:12:30
think my mystery is what she sees in me.
01:12:33
She loves
01:12:35
So, I don't actually talk too much to
01:12:36
her about it. Like, if she asked me a
01:12:38
question, I'll answer it. And then she's
01:12:39
like,
01:12:40
>> "Oh, but but what else?" You know? So,
01:12:43
>> well, I know you I know you hate this
01:12:45
word, but
01:12:46
>> maybe when she met you, she could just
01:12:48
see the potential in you.
01:12:50
>> Yeah, she always she saw something. She
01:12:52
saw something
01:12:53
>> and you you haven't Yeah. Like you
01:12:54
haven't let her down. Like, you know,
01:12:56
you're living a really good life now and
01:12:57
you're doing really cool stuff.
01:12:59
>> Yeah. Um, but I I can't imagine like
01:13:01
from her perspective how difficult you
01:13:03
she starts she falls in love with this
01:13:05
guy that's got a got a past and then
01:13:07
she's got to explain it to like her
01:13:09
family and her friends like she's got to
01:13:11
justify it to them. You know what I
01:13:13
mean?
01:13:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember at the wedding
01:13:15
like uh like I said I've always been
01:13:17
open about it.
01:13:18
>> Yeah.
01:13:18
>> And um if people ask I tell them
01:13:21
>> and they'll they'll say one of two
01:13:23
things like oh gosh or
01:13:27
that's great that you're doing well now
01:13:28
you know. So I remember at the wedding I
01:13:30
uh
01:13:32
it was a lot of people, hundred odd
01:13:34
people and you know you you stand up and
01:13:36
you got to say this great amazing speech
01:13:38
and I remember saying
01:13:42
last time I spoke in front of this many
01:13:44
people was at court.
01:13:50
But everyone laughed. It was a great
01:13:52
icebreaker.
01:13:53
>> Yeah, they're your people.
01:13:55
>> Yeah.
01:13:56
>> Um
01:13:59
Yeah, it was
01:14:04
it was
01:14:04
>> you got a good sense of humor. How how
01:14:06
does your past um still impact your life
01:14:08
today? Obviously there's the travel
01:14:10
issues. You can't travel.
01:14:12
>> I can.
01:14:13
>> You can. Where can you go?
01:14:14
>> Everywhere. Really? I've been around the
01:14:16
world.
01:14:16
>> Oh [ __ ]
01:14:17
>> Kind of.
01:14:18
>> Yeah. I've been to um
01:14:21
Raaro, Fiji,
01:14:23
>> um
01:14:27
Makati,
01:14:29
>> um Australia. I got my visa to America.
01:14:32
I just didn't go.
01:14:34
>> Amazing.
01:14:35
>> Yeah. Um I apply I I go through the
01:14:39
paperwork and I check and I r everyone
01:14:40
up and
01:14:42
make sure what do I need to get in? All
01:14:45
you need is this this apply for it and
01:14:46
get it. So, I've been uh I actually went
01:14:51
back to Australia and did a year playing
01:14:53
league over there in um 2014.
01:14:58
>> M
01:14:58
>> So, that was a big breakthrough.
01:15:01
>> That's when I finally got over um not
01:15:04
playing in the NRL.
01:15:05
>> Yeah.
01:15:06
>> Really? Why is that to sort of just
01:15:08
scratch an itch?
01:15:10
>> Yes. So, I went over and I did the thing
01:15:13
and uh by the time I did the thing, it
01:15:16
wasn't my thing.
01:15:17
>> Mhm.
01:15:18
>> Yeah. And I came back and got married.
01:15:20
>> Yeah.
01:15:21
>> Um
01:15:22
you're 100% right. I scratched the itch.
01:15:25
>> Yeah.
01:15:25
>> Yeah.
01:15:26
>> What What about redemption? Is it Are
01:15:29
there some people that just, you know,
01:15:30
can't see past your past? Do you know
01:15:33
what I mean?
01:15:33
>> Yeah. 100%.
01:15:36
um see it all the time and and every
01:15:38
time a news article comes out there's
01:15:40
there's always the comments of
01:15:43
you know once always uh uh uh cheetah
01:15:46
never changes its spots and stuff like
01:15:48
that but
01:15:51
>> whatever I'm here I'm doing my thing
01:15:54
people people are weird e cuz like you
01:15:57
know
01:15:58
what we want from um like the New
01:16:01
Zealand um prison system is is people
01:16:04
like you people that go through do the
01:16:06
work and change and become contributing
01:16:08
members of society. But then there's
01:16:10
some people and it's like they they kind
01:16:11
of don't want you to change in a way or
01:16:13
they or they don't want you to
01:16:14
experience a certain level of success
01:16:16
after you've done something bad. It's a
01:16:18
real strange mindset. I find it hard to
01:16:19
get my head around.
01:16:20
>> Yeah, same. And I see it all the time.
01:16:23
>> I see it in other things where they
01:16:26
comment on not me something will happen
01:16:28
and they they just all no matter what
01:16:30
you do, they just see what they want to
01:16:32
see. Um, I find myself there sometimes
01:16:36
>> when it when it fits my narrative.
01:16:38
>> Yeah.
01:16:39
>> But I'm aware of it and I I try not to
01:16:42
>> I try not to. Um, but it's it's human
01:16:45
behavior, you know.
01:16:48
>> What would your advice be for anyone
01:16:49
that's like listening to this or
01:16:50
watching to this now that's at their own
01:16:52
version of rock bottom right now?
01:16:57
>> Um,
01:17:01
yeah. I don't know. Don't do that thing
01:17:04
you did that hurt. Don't do that.
01:17:08
>> Yeah.
01:17:09
>> No. Yeah. It's hard cuz everyone has
01:17:11
their own
01:17:12
>> Yeah.
01:17:12
>> version.
01:17:14
One guy one guy said to me, um, two
01:17:17
things to change. Um, inspiration or
01:17:20
desperation.
01:17:21
>> Mhm.
01:17:21
>> So if at the bottom you're probably
01:17:23
desperate.
01:17:24
>> Um, if you can't change when at the
01:17:25
bottom
01:17:27
Yeah. or you get inspired by someone to
01:17:30
lose that weight or or or go to the
01:17:33
Olympics or be an all black or whatever.
01:17:35
So, find that and if you can't uh yeah,
01:17:41
just work harder and maybe work the
01:17:43
weekends, you know. Well, that's um one
01:17:46
thing I've got from this um this doing
01:17:47
this podcast. I've done like 250
01:17:49
episodes now with all sorts of people
01:17:51
like um you know, some really high
01:17:53
achieving uh New Zealanders. It's like
01:17:55
the the one thing they all have in
01:17:57
common is hard work.
01:17:59
Natural talent's only going to get you
01:18:00
so far, but hard work is the it's the
01:18:03
one thing they all have in common.
01:18:05
>> God, when you when you were sitting in
01:18:06
sitting in your various jail cells, did
01:18:08
you ever imagine your life could look as
01:18:09
good as what it does now?
01:18:12
>> Um, in a in a distant dream, you know,
01:18:15
you know, you dream of things and
01:18:17
>> yeah, I dreamed of things for my life.
01:18:19
Um, it was never this. it was never this
01:18:23
and and what I do and um
01:18:27
yeah, it's just amazing and I'm I'm
01:18:31
lucky to have a supportive family and
01:18:35
great mates now and um people who keep
01:18:38
me honest and um
01:18:41
and yeah, like a great community of
01:18:43
league and
01:18:45
the other sports, disc golf and
01:18:47
whatever. Um
01:18:50
>> yeah, and What sport? What did you say?
01:18:52
Disc golf.
01:18:53
>> Disc golf.
01:18:53
>> Is it like frisbee golf?
01:18:55
>> It is.
01:18:56
>> Do you play frisbee golf?
01:18:57
>> I do.
01:18:58
>> I wouldn't have picked you to be a
01:18:59
frisbee golf guy.
01:19:00
>> Well, I'm a I'm a non-cont sport guy
01:19:02
these days.
01:19:04
And uh disc golf, you don't need any uh
01:19:07
sandune running. No, no preseason
01:19:10
fitness.
01:19:11
Uh no, no Saturday night benders after
01:19:13
the game. Yeah, we actually ran the New
01:19:16
Zealand Nationals at the beginning of
01:19:18
the year. Um,
01:19:20
>> what would what would 19year-old Jay
01:19:22
thinking thinking of think of this guy,
01:19:24
the dis golfer?
01:19:25
>> Oh, the same as um the same as
01:19:27
35year-old Jay would say when he first
01:19:30
learned it.
01:19:31
>> Bro, want to come for a game of disco
01:19:33
golf?
01:19:34
>> Does it look like I play disc golf?
01:19:36
Anyway, I went and instantly hooked.
01:19:40
Wow. And it's great for um the boys at
01:19:44
at work. like we get them to build the
01:19:46
courses and
01:19:48
>> you know whole range of skills in that
01:19:50
and also it's great for one-on-one chats
01:19:52
go for a round.
01:19:53
>> Yeah.
01:19:54
>> Um
01:19:56
>> so it's actually it's great sport.
01:19:59
>> When when did you become um good or or
01:20:03
better than what you were at being open
01:20:04
and like having vulnerable discussions
01:20:06
and talking so openly and freely about
01:20:08
this real crunchy stuff?
01:20:09
>> I remember the time.
01:20:11
>> Do you? There's a YMCA national hoie. Um
01:20:15
201
01:20:17
13 or 14.
01:20:20
Um they had a national hoie and Christ
01:20:22
Church and me and Tikki were tasked with
01:20:26
the welcome the opening and keynote
01:20:28
keynote speaking. And Tikki was always
01:20:30
the the front man. He was really good.
01:20:33
He's really um he's an academic
01:20:37
and I was I was kind of like the mahi
01:20:39
guy in the background doing all the bits
01:20:40
and pieces. Anyway, he goes, "Bro, you
01:20:42
should tell your story."
01:20:44
And I was like, "Oh, that's a bit new."
01:20:47
And then he encouraged me and helped me.
01:20:49
And anyway, we got to the part and I
01:20:52
told my story and
01:20:55
people responded
01:20:56
>> which was empowering.
01:20:59
Um,
01:21:01
and people were encouraging and uh I
01:21:03
felt awkward walking around after
01:21:05
thinking like you know about me.
01:21:08
>> Yeah, it like vulnerability is hard.
01:21:10
Like it feels like you've been standing
01:21:11
naked on stage in front of those people.
01:21:13
>> Yeah. Another guy um who was a sergeant
01:21:15
in the army for 21 years. He works at
01:21:18
Bridge of Change now.
01:21:19
>> Um I told him I was like um do you want
01:21:22
to come and do some stuff at our camps
01:21:24
with our boys from a different
01:21:25
perspective? and he used that
01:21:27
opportunity to um cuz he was saying in
01:21:31
the army everyone's there cuz they want
01:21:32
to be and they want to learn
01:21:34
>> but when you got kids who are not there
01:21:37
cuz they want to be
01:21:38
>> in the I'm talking about army uh and you
01:21:41
have to try and teach them it's about
01:21:43
working to the audience.
01:21:45
Um anyway, I while while we were there,
01:21:47
I gave this I spoke to these kids
01:21:50
because he's used to get down and give
01:21:53
him 20 now, you know, and and when I
01:21:57
spoke to them, I spoke to them from a uh
01:22:00
from being being vulnerable. Like I
01:22:02
shared some stuff to the kids about
01:22:04
>> and he was and the and the kids
01:22:06
responded to me better than the way they
01:22:08
responded to that. And he was like,
01:22:11
>> "What's the sorcery?" Cuz he's all, you
01:22:13
know, he's a half man. He's quite so
01:22:15
ever since then he was really curious
01:22:17
about
01:22:18
>> that side of it. So so now he works
01:22:20
there
01:22:21
>> and uh
01:22:21
>> interesting. You different way of
01:22:23
communication. It's sort of like what
01:22:24
you were saying before when you first
01:22:25
got arrested and the police were there
01:22:26
and it wasn't like um confrontation. It
01:22:29
was like K it's the police here.
01:22:31
>> Yeah. It's different different way of
01:22:33
approaching things
01:22:34
>> rather than
01:22:35
>> Yeah. Get on your knees.
01:22:36
>> Yeah. Kicking the door down. And it was
01:22:37
a different approach which was um
01:22:40
>> I think the result would have been the
01:22:42
same. I wasn't going to that, you know,
01:22:44
the gigs up.
01:22:45
>> Yay.
01:22:47
>> Um Yeah. How often, if at all, do you
01:22:49
think about um the victims these days?
01:22:52
You know, the people that were working
01:22:53
those jobs when they when you did the
01:22:55
armed robberies.
01:22:56
>> Uh times like the last couple of days a
01:22:59
lot. Cuz I'm here in Oakuckland. Um
01:23:03
yeah. And I I think of the not the
01:23:07
physical harm I did to them because
01:23:09
there physically there was none. It was
01:23:12
all psychological, you know. And
01:23:16
>> I just think
01:23:18
me coming in aggressive like that and
01:23:21
demanding.
01:23:24
I actually don't know how that feels,
01:23:25
but I can imagine, you know, um they all
01:23:30
take it differently and
01:23:34
yeah, I hope that um I hope that they
01:23:36
see what I'm doing now. And I hope they
01:23:37
kind of like
01:23:41
not it was worth it, but I'm I'm glad
01:23:43
that he's giving back now rather than
01:23:45
continuing on their path and and others
01:23:47
are victims.
01:23:49
>> Um
01:23:51
yeah, so that's that's kind of what I
01:23:53
think of it. I haven't really made any
01:23:55
attempts to reach out whether they're
01:23:58
around or or not. It was been a long
01:24:01
time and
01:24:03
>> yeah, so
01:24:04
>> if if any of them were um watching this
01:24:05
or listening to this, like what would
01:24:07
you what would you say to them?
01:24:10
>> Ah man, yeah, I'm just
01:24:15
obviously it's um changed my life. Um,
01:24:19
and yeah, I hope it hasn't had any um
01:24:23
major effects on on on their life and
01:24:27
yeah, come come for a be
01:24:32
uh Yeah, obviously.
01:24:35
>> Yeah, I I Yeah, I mean, I can tell
01:24:37
you're like you're you're ashamed about
01:24:39
it because you know, you're not the same
01:24:41
person now as what you were then.
01:24:42
>> Yeah.
01:24:43
>> Yeah. Very ashamed. especially like um
01:24:47
uh direct victims
01:24:50
>> uh from that from from that um arm
01:24:52
robbery end as well as well my my family
01:24:56
and and all that. So
01:24:58
>> yeah,
01:24:58
>> hopefully now it's kind of like all
01:25:02
healing itself.
01:25:03
>> Yeah. Um yeah, you're helping a lot of
01:25:05
people fix their lives now, but I reckon
01:25:08
we're all permanent um works in progress
01:25:10
as human beings. What's one thing that
01:25:12
you're still working on fixing in yours?
01:25:15
>> Um, my connection to T Modi.
01:25:18
>> Um,
01:25:19
>> is that going to be a lifelong thing?
01:25:20
>> Yep. Never ends. Um, it it draws me now
01:25:24
more than ever. Draws me back to,
01:25:27
you know, that's why part of it is
01:25:30
showing the kids. Um, my grandmother's
01:25:33
house, my dad's house, where all the
01:25:35
houses I lived while I was here, the
01:25:36
area I grew up in, um, the prisons. And
01:25:40
then on Saturday we tomorrow we're going
01:25:43
um up to where we're from, the Murray,
01:25:46
>> where my grandmother's from. And then uh
01:25:48
next week we're going into the UD from
01:25:50
where my grandmother's from.
01:25:52
>> So all of that is um
01:25:56
is a home base, you know, and once you
01:25:58
know where once you know where you are
01:26:00
and you know how to get anywhere from
01:26:02
there, if you don't know where you are,
01:26:04
>> how do you get to New Zealand?
01:26:07
>> Plain, boat, walk, depends where you
01:26:09
are.
01:26:09
>> Yeah. So that's my kind of um
01:26:12
that's my
01:26:14
thinking is to so if they cuz if I ask
01:26:18
my kids oh where you from oh they
01:26:20
actually they're actually um fluent in
01:26:22
Tadel but
01:26:23
>> wow
01:26:24
>> but a lot of the boys at work I'll be
01:26:25
like where you from I'm from Christurch
01:26:28
but I know there's a lot more
01:26:30
>> behind them so figuring out where their
01:26:33
home base is then they can go anywhere
01:26:35
>> cuz once I kind of
01:26:37
>> accepted that and figured that out. I
01:26:39
kind of been hitting milestones ever
01:26:41
since.
01:26:41
>> Yeah,
01:26:44
>> that's awesome. Do you do you consider
01:26:46
yourself a role model?
01:26:50
>> Um,
01:26:52
yeah.
01:26:53
>> Yeah. And it's been it's um it's quite
01:26:57
easy like uh I will a recent one I'll
01:27:01
take kids up the hill. Uh we'll walk up
01:27:04
the hill to in in in the Alps somewhere
01:27:07
and what are we doing up here? So well
01:27:10
we're hunting.
01:27:11
>> So we haven't seen any animals. Well,
01:27:13
we're getting experience
01:27:15
and then what do we do now?
01:27:21
>> What are we going to do now? So let's
01:27:22
all sit around. Let's have feed and um
01:27:24
I'll read you a chapter of my book. and
01:27:26
they're like, "No."
01:27:29
But I'll but I'll but I'll read it and
01:27:31
then um I'll read a chapter and then
01:27:34
I'll I'll leave them with that and then
01:27:37
throughout the next couple days I'll be
01:27:39
walking with them on the way back or
01:27:41
whatever and they'll be like, "Oh, Mata,
01:27:44
you know, you're saying about how like
01:27:45
you didn't have a home."
01:27:47
Yeah, I know cuz you know I've been
01:27:49
passed around and so you know they
01:27:51
connect with a little bit of it and and
01:27:54
if they see I came from that
01:27:57
>> and uh and that's where they are and
01:28:00
they can see what I'm doing now, you
01:28:01
know, it's a light for them. It's it's
01:28:03
something for them, you know, it's not
01:28:05
always going to be like that, but it's
01:28:06
up to them.
01:28:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like we talked about
01:28:09
before, you can give someone the tools,
01:28:11
but they got to they got to figure out
01:28:12
how to use them. Oh,
01:28:14
>> there's one thing in your book. Um,
01:28:17
there's there's a line you used and I
01:28:18
wanted some elaboration on this. I
01:28:19
forgot about this actually. So, you said
01:28:21
you served something like 6 years, but
01:28:23
your total sentence was 16 years.
01:28:25
>> What does what does that mean?
01:28:26
>> Well, if you do 6 years of prison and
01:28:30
then you get out, you're not immediately
01:28:32
back to where you started. You're you're
01:28:36
6 years behind, if not deeper in a hole.
01:28:39
You don't get back to um a playing level
01:28:41
field.
01:28:42
>> Well, I didn't. And so when I got out,
01:28:45
not only was I behind, I was actually in
01:28:47
a hole.
01:28:47
>> Mhm.
01:28:48
>> So it took me 10 years to
01:28:51
uh
01:28:53
change the perception of myself
01:28:55
>> and rebuild enough things to get back to
01:28:59
what I didn't have when I started.
01:29:01
>> Right.
01:29:01
>> You know what I mean?
01:29:02
>> Yeah.
01:29:02
>> Like when I went to prison, I didn't
01:29:04
have anything.
01:29:05
>> So when I got out, I had to rebuild back
01:29:07
to not having anything.
01:29:09
>> Um
01:29:11
>> Right. Yeah. Next, you need to work even
01:29:12
harder to prove yourself that you're a
01:29:14
contributing member of society.
01:29:16
>> Yeah.
01:29:16
>> Okay. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.
01:29:18
>> It's interesting. I've never heard
01:29:19
anyone explain it that way.
01:29:21
>> Yeah. Even Yeah. So, you don't just get
01:29:23
out and just carry on where you were.
01:29:25
You know, you don't get
01:29:26
>> you don't get held up.
01:29:28
>> Um you're actually generally worse off
01:29:30
and you have that stigma following you
01:29:32
around. So, not only do you have to
01:29:35
>> um prove yourself, you have to prove
01:29:37
yourself more because you're you're that
01:29:39
guy. M
01:29:40
>> yeah,
01:29:42
>> if you um if you were able to go back
01:29:44
and talk to an 18-year-old version of
01:29:46
yourself, I know what you'd say. Um but
01:29:48
would would that kid listen?
01:29:50
>> No, he wouldn't. Nah, people are like I
01:29:53
always say, I built this program for
01:29:56
young me. The program I run now was what
01:29:58
I needed. But in all honesty,
01:30:02
uh everyone knew I needed it. I knew I
01:30:04
knew I needed it, but I wouldn't take
01:30:06
it.
01:30:06
>> Yeah. You had to learn the hard way.
01:30:07
>> I had to learn the hard way. And that's
01:30:08
what I say to kids. It's like you can
01:30:10
either listen to me or you can go learn
01:30:13
some lessons and then come back,
01:30:15
>> but do it easy, do it. Up to you, you
01:30:18
know.
01:30:19
>> I love that. Yeah. Ultimately, it's
01:30:21
personal accountability.
01:30:22
>> Yes.
01:30:22
>> Are you um have you have you been able
01:30:24
to forgive yourself?
01:30:28
>> Uh yeah, a little bit. mostly like I
01:30:31
really love I really love um I really
01:30:35
love some results that we get but then
01:30:37
I'm there's always that like thing in
01:30:39
the background like like like what if
01:30:42
and and what have I done to people? Uh
01:30:47
so I guess like doing the work I do now
01:30:50
is um makes me feel better about myself.
01:30:54
>> Is that right? You still carry still
01:30:55
carry a bit of guilt and shame about
01:30:57
>> Yeah, there's always like when uh some
01:31:00
people say it proudly, oh, this is my
01:31:02
mate Jay. Uh he he did this. Uh but he's
01:31:07
a good guy, you know, which is which is
01:31:09
fair. And um and then uh every now and
01:31:12
then you get the you get the judge look
01:31:15
like, oh, and oh, hey, nice to meet you
01:31:18
kind of thing. Whereas like
01:31:21
>> Yeah. Yeah,
01:31:21
>> but you that's a that's a snapshot. You
01:31:24
know, there's a lot there's a lot in
01:31:26
between which I'm happy with.
01:31:29
>> Um but I did it.
01:31:31
>> So, you know,
01:31:32
>> got to live with the consequences of
01:31:33
your actions.
01:31:34
>> That's right.
01:31:34
>> Yeah.
01:31:35
>> Accountability.
01:31:36
>> Um what about future? How old are you
01:31:38
now? What's your age?
01:31:39
>> Well, they call me um on my birth
01:31:41
certificate. They said I'm 45, but you
01:31:44
freeze in prison, so I'm 39.
01:31:48
>> Yeah. What What happens on your birthday
01:31:49
in jail? Um
01:31:52
well I can't say that but
01:31:55
>> well no you can it's a podcast you can
01:31:56
say whatever you want.
01:31:57
>> Yeah I mean a few things you can um go
01:32:01
to sleep you can uh a couple of birthday
01:32:04
uh I had my 21st in prison and um all
01:32:06
the guys they actually bought some
01:32:08
things from their canteen and then they
01:32:11
all put it all in together. We had a we
01:32:12
party you know chocolate biscuits and
01:32:14
chips and uh stuff like that. May have
01:32:17
been some home brew. Can't remember. um
01:32:21
>> home brew like with made with old fruit.
01:32:23
Is that how you make prison wine or
01:32:26
whatever they call it?
01:32:26
>> I've had I've had a veggie mite one,
01:32:28
minties, raaru,
01:32:31
um a yeast one,
01:32:34
uh yeah, oranges, fermentss, um
01:32:37
>> [ __ ] does it taste like [ __ ]
01:32:38
>> Yeah,
01:32:45
>> but you know, desperate times. Yeah.
01:32:47
Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:48
>> I got I got crooked a few times.
01:32:49
Obviously, they're still cooking.
01:32:51
>> Um, but the moment was great.
01:32:55
>> Yeah.
01:32:55
>> I suppose you just want that just that
01:32:57
moment of escapism, eh?
01:32:58
>> Yeah. I remember my 21st. You know how
01:33:00
people normally get a key.
01:33:02
>> I was like, well, in this case, I really
01:33:03
wish I had the door.
01:33:07
>> Yeah.
01:33:08
>> Yeah. What about future goals? Yeah.
01:33:10
Where do you see yourself at? Yeah. 50,
01:33:12
whatever. Um, living quietly in the
01:33:15
bush,
01:33:16
>> self- sustainable.
01:33:18
um teaching my kids all the life skills
01:33:22
and
01:33:24
quite simple actually simple life of um
01:33:28
in the bush hunting sustainably and and
01:33:33
uh learning learning about the tao and
01:33:37
retracting back to
01:33:40
uh
01:33:41
matiki and and those ways learning
01:33:44
living
01:33:46
quite happily is quite has got quite got
01:33:48
a strong pull on me these days. So, it's
01:33:50
really cool.
01:33:51
>> Well, chasing chaos didn't really work
01:33:53
out for you. So, yeah, Chasing
01:33:55
Simplicity, I think that's the way to
01:33:57
go.
01:33:57
>> Tried that out. Didn't really work out.
01:34:00
>> One star wouldn't recommend.
01:34:02
>> Um, yeah. If if you if your kids were
01:34:05
here, your kids and your wife, and I
01:34:07
asked them to come together as a group
01:34:09
and put together like three words to
01:34:11
describe you,
01:34:12
>> Yeah.
01:34:12
>> what three words do you think they'd
01:34:13
come up with?
01:34:15
Um,
01:34:18
that's tough because it's kind of like
01:34:20
talking about myself, but it's they
01:34:22
probably say funny.
01:34:25
Uh, my wife would say either determined
01:34:27
or or hardworking.
01:34:30
>> And the kids would say farting.
01:34:34
>> Jeez, how bad is that? But uh
01:34:37
>> yeah, probably determines
01:34:40
uh funny and
01:34:43
uh
01:34:44
caring or strong.
01:34:46
>> They're nice words. You like those
01:34:48
words?
01:34:48
>> I do. It describes a very different
01:34:51
>> J
01:34:52
>> to, you know, the the one I left in
01:34:55
Oakuckland.
01:34:57
>> Yeah.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself?
01:35:00
>> I am. I'm proud of what I've been able
01:35:02
to do, the places I've been, and um the
01:35:06
way I've recovered, I guess, from what
01:35:08
could have been very different. And
01:35:10
proud of my family
01:35:12
>> and sort of excited to see what they can
01:35:15
achieve.
01:35:19
>> This has been great.
01:35:21
>> Yeah. How's it for you? Is it is it
01:35:23
cathartic? Is it embarrassing talking
01:35:25
about the old stuff?
01:35:27
>> Uh yeah, there's a little embarrass.
01:35:29
There's a little bit of embarrassment
01:35:30
there. There's a little bit of It got
01:35:32
It's gone fast.
01:35:33
>> Yeah, it's mate. It's been like an hour
01:35:35
and a half.
01:35:35
>> Yeah. Um, it's gone fast. It's gone. Um,
01:35:41
uh,
01:35:43
good.
01:35:46
>> It's been really It's been really great.
01:35:48
I've really enjoyed it. And, um, yeah, I
01:35:50
hope it's been um, enjoyable for you as
01:35:52
well.
01:35:53
>> Yeah, I hope it's interesting. Yeah,
01:35:55
>> that's what I thought of the book when
01:35:57
they said, "Hey, you should write a
01:35:58
book." I was like,
01:36:01
>> cuz I'd already been talking about a lot
01:36:03
of the stuff. So, to me, it was just
01:36:05
repeat, repeat, repeat.
01:36:06
>> But, um,
01:36:08
>> yeah, that was my main goal was like
01:36:10
people would be like, "Oh, this is not
01:36:12
even interesting." But,
01:36:14
>> seems to be interesting.
01:36:17
>> Yeah, I lived it. So, it was kind of
01:36:19
>> Yeah.
01:36:20
>> I know the story.
01:36:21
>> Did you Yeah. What was the process? So,
01:36:22
publishers came to you. Did you write it
01:36:24
yourself or did they give you like a a a
01:36:26
ghost writer that interviewed you and
01:36:28
then wrote it for you or?
01:36:29
>> Yeah, they gave me a ghost writer.
01:36:30
>> Yeah.
01:36:31
>> Uh they actually found me. I did a TED
01:36:33
talk and they found me on that and then
01:36:36
rang me up and said do you want to do a
01:36:37
book? I was like
01:36:39
>> I never went to school.
01:36:42
That's but they said they do. I was like
01:36:43
what I got to do? They're like nothing.
01:36:44
>> Yeah.
01:36:45
>> I was like okay
01:36:47
>> can't see any um negative out of it. So
01:36:50
yeah, let's do it.
01:36:52
That's must be crazy like going into a
01:36:53
mall and seeing yourself in a paper
01:36:55
plus.
01:36:56
>> Yeah, the kids got a bit of a routine
01:36:57
now. They're like every time we go in
01:36:59
they're like being the first ones to
01:37:01
find the book. Um
01:37:04
yeah, I've been signing a few at the
01:37:06
shops and uh they put a sticker on it
01:37:08
and then I encouraged them to put it out
01:37:10
the front.
01:37:13
>> I wasn't too fussy at the start, but we
01:37:15
we got to some
01:37:17
>> uh some kind of um bestselling list um
01:37:19
Wow. which was at the time I was like,
01:37:22
"Oh, maybe there's something here." So
01:37:24
then I started pushing it a bit more.
01:37:26
>> Um, but it's been a whirlwind.
01:37:29
>> Yeah. Hey, congrats, mate. Congrats on
01:37:32
everything you've done. Um, no,
01:37:34
actually, not on everything you've done.
01:37:36
>> Congrats on everything you've done
01:37:38
recently.
01:37:39
>> Yeah.
01:37:39
>> Um, and I can't wait to see what you do
01:37:41
in the future. You're you're a good dude
01:37:42
doing good stuff.
01:37:43
>> Yeah. Cheers, Dom. Thanks for having me,
01:37:44
man. Appreciate it, mate. Yeah.
