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first, Mr. Okconor. Or can I call you Tim? You can call me whatever you like. I'm sure
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you will, Dom. Sir, Tim Oconor, welcome to my podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me, mate. I I really appreciate
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you being here today. This is only your second ever podcast experience. It is. I'm not a podcaster. Right. I I'm
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surprised about that because I had so many um requests from people in the leadup to this suggesting that you'd be
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a good guest. would like to know the names of those people. I will send you the names at the end. Um the first thing
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I wanted to know is um uh when when you finish um the end of a school day, do you go home and you just stink of links
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Africa? That's a good question. Or sort of wet wool. Wet wool. Really? Well, don't you
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remember those days of wet wool jerseys in the in the in the in classrooms on a on a day like this? Yes. So you you are
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the um the headmaster at Oakland Grammar School. It's a job you've had 11 years
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now. No, my 13th year. 13th year. Um and you're the only the 11th person to have
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that job. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy when you think about how how long the school
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has been around and how few um headmasters there have been. 156. This is our 156th year.
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Um but I think yeah the the the tenure of headmasters gives stability to a a school environment that is you know very
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unique in its style. I think grammar is an outlier really in in education um in this country today. So I think the the
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uh sense of responsibility um is is sort of seen in the length of 10 years. I mean John Morris was 20
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years, DJ Graham was 20 years. So that sort of length of tenure has been a pretty stable force in the school. So if
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you accept that job and you do say less than 10 years, do people consider you a bit flaky?
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I mean, no stickability that guy. You probably don't want to be the the um shortest serving headmaster as your sort
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of uh legacy. So you're um underneath you at Oakland Grammar, you've um 250
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staff and how many boys? About 3,000. Uh 2760. Yep. So yep. heading that way sadly. A
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lot of people, a lot of staff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um across both a Mountain Road campus, but we've also got
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a lodge um in Ouni and then of course we've got boarding houses. And so those
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things are all make up the you know the fabric of grammar. I I mentioned on Instagram that you were
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coming in and uh there was just an unprecedented amount of of questions. I'd say the only the only guest that's
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had more um listener based questions from Instagram was probably Dan Hooker from the UFC and you're number two. Um a
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lot of lot of trolling going on like um my friend Bridget she said um can my son
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go to grammar in 2028 even though we don't live in zone you get a no. Yeah. Do do you get people
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trying to like bribe you or offer donations to the school? No. Not no casually. they probably don't get that
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close to me in terms of um enrollment protocols. Um I'm sure our director of
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enrollment deals with well she does she deals with a myriad of uh questions and challenges and things that for people um
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want to access the grammar style of education. So yeah, I think I mean it's tough it's it's tough for people who
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want a specific style of education and the zoning structure in this in Oakland um restricts them from doing so. M
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um there were a lot of comments on Instagram as well which I'm I'm guessing
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is maybe students trolling. Um someone said can you can you ask him uh what's 2
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plus two? What's that? That's probably uh someone from 7A or I'd say someone
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someone like that. And then the next part of that was um now ask him what's two skin plus two skin.
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Sounds like a boy's sort of boy school sort of qu actually that sounds like probably someone from another boy school
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not ours. All right. Is Is this the sort of crap you have to put up with on a daily basis? Like just sort of pranks
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and trolling and No. Just stupidness from No, no, no. I mean, we're It's a
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fantastic environment to be part of. It's it's energizing, you know, being
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part of a school like Grammar keeps you young. Um, you know, we start every day with assembly and um so I get to sort of
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speak to the boys on a daily basis. I get to sense the vibe of the school, you know, every morning. Um, so no, like
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we've we've just had a big exchange and we've released the entire school out to
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watch um from about 12:30 um through to 2:00 and you know they're just fully
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engaged. There's not a there's not an issue sort of around the campus um
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because the boys are sort of bought into the culture and they want to be part of
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um the environment. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it's it's um yeah, it says a lot
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about the culture, I suppose, and the history that's been created over, you know, well, over 150 years. Um there
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were lots of comments on Instagram as well like this. Our son started this year and Tim's a legend. Good guy with a
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great sense of humor. A lot of people say you got a great sense of humor and I think you probably need to and yeah, you
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want to have a sense of humor. Um great sense of humor. Um so yeah, how do you manage um uh being respected um and
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being liked alongside making tough decisions? Um I you just got to do what you think's
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right, what you believe in. And um I think that grammar helps that because it is a really structured environment. We
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say um who we are as a school. We make that really clear. Um so there's no surprises to anyone who who joins the
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environment. And then when it's then you make decisions that are actually appropriate to the to the situation. And
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so here we are we're making um a hell of a lot of decisions on a daily basis that
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are sort of guiding the school and treating people um with fairness and and you know following the principles of
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natural justice but also you know at the same time being able to have a laugh at
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you know there are there are just things that boys do on a daily basis that you go yeah let's we can just laugh at that
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there's there's questions they ask you you know on a daily basis that are also
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like yeah good on you good try um and get A with you boys. Oh yeah, totally. But I think that builds that's what
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builds a relationship with them. Um I think uh like being ahead of a school. My view is you win so much through your
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presence. That's just by being there. You know, I think you can rise to positions of leadership and then um be
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readily officebound. And if as soon as you're office bound, then the boys just
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lose touch with who you are. And if they don't have a sense that you believe in
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them and that you believe in the direction of the school and that you're as passionate about their school as they
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are, then you lose them. So it's I just think being present means that you can
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you might have uh a presence on stage which is very formal on a daily basis you know with the gown and the school
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prayer and all of those things but then when you're walking the grounds at lunchtime you're interacting with boys
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in a totally different way to what you are when you're in a formal setting. Important for them to see you in both.
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Yeah. But it must be I don't know. It must be difficult to um keep control of that many boys and and
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do it um with a smile on your face and be able to have a wink with them and not just um you know not just rule with an
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iron fist or you know be be that grumpy firm leader. Yeah, it's pretty rare where is that just not the way anymore?
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Not the way to communicate. No. No. I think um to create an environment um with teenagers today, they've got very
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good detectors on them as to what is [ __ ] and what isn't. So if you fudge anything with them, they they can they
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will pick up on it pretty quickly. So the critical thing from from my point of view is you actually you got to be
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comfortable in who you are and then present that to them and they need to understand
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uh what the school environment is and buy into it. If we we really well while while there are discipline structures in
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place we don't for 98 99% of the boys we're not actually ruling them they're ruling themselves
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because they know what the standards are. We tell them what the standards are. We tell them why they make
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sacrifices to meet those standards and what the advantages will be if they do that in a consistent basis. And then
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typically most of them go well actually that's reasonable and I want to be part
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of it. They're like if you use socks for example, you know, I keep saying to the
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boys, it's, you know, like when you walk around, when you leave our gates at the
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end of the day, you know, I can't chase after every single one of you, um, even
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though I'd like to some days, um, that, you know, when you walk through New Market, you make a decision about the
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length of your socks. And if you have your socks up and they're at the, you know, top of your calf muscles, if
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you've got calf muscles, then um, then what you're doing is showing pride in
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your school. you saying, "I actually belong to this place and I like it."
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Because you think about people who are well-dressed, you know, who you see around you. They make an impression on
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you. So, why don't you show that you represent Oakland Grammar School and you're proud of your school, you know?
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Why do why do um why do kids from other schools walk around with their socks right around their ankles? Like, do they
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not like their school? Do they actually want to disrespect it? So, we sort of talk to them in that sort of a manner.
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I suppose if you have your socks down, I'd like to use that as an example. Well, it's like an act of sort of, you
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know, anarchy or rebellion in a way. And like on the big scheme of things and where societyy's at at the moment, that
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that it's not too bad on the big scheme of things. But sweat the small stuff,
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right? Sweet the small stuff. You don't have to worry about the big stuff. And
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if I was driving along the street and there was a boy with the socks down, I'd
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pull over and say to him, "Do you not actually like our school?" Um, have you
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done that? Oh, absolutely. I've driven up on driven up on foot paths alongside
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them um to to sort of ask the question and you get that little rice smile and they go sort of you know seek
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forgiveness and that's that's that's that's okay. You're allowed to make a
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mistake just don't repeat it. What what do they call you is they say sorry sir.
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Yep. Sir's typical just everyday language sir miss etc. Everyday language of grammar. What are the other hard and
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fast rules of grammar? Socks are they they address the staff as sir or ma'am.
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They stand up when you go into a classroom. Yeah. All of those basics, those things that when you were at
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school, when I was at school, you know, Palmy boy style, they were they are all very much um part of grammar today. Um
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and grammar is a surname environment. So, we only use surnames. We don't use
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first names. And I think Scotty Stevenson was spoken at a Lever's dinner recently and said to the boys, you know,
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congratulations today. You get your first name back. Um but it's just that's all part of the
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formality of the place and there's sort of protocols and rituals that actually
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bring in it's like sitting in assembly and you sit in your stream. So you sit
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in your form class, you sit in the same place in assembly, you're sitting on
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hall forms that date back to 1880. So you know and we talk to them about the fact that you know think about the
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people who have been here before you have sat on the same hall forms and where's your responsibility lie to those
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people? Yeah, there must be some crazy names on the honors board as well. I had um just
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last week I recorded a podcast here with Grant Fox and he told a story about um um becoming like best mates with Martin
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Crowe uh in the the first term of their third form at um Oakland Grammar. Two of
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the greatest New Zealand sports people in different coats of all time. Yeah. Yeah. There are some drop some names.
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Certainly there's been like 50 All Blacks or something. E we're in our 54th
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All Black. So Sean Stevenson was the last um All Black um to be named and um and look and he's still in touch with
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the school. is uh Graeme Thornnewood um is is in touch pretty regularly. There's
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a a lot of those um guys who have come through grammar um stay totally connected. Um Tom Schneckenberg you know
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some names from from the past those sort of yeah those sort of people Peter Sir Peter Gluckman um Sir Kenneth Keith um
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Sir Ron Carter you know the the list Sir Edund Hillary um so the the list sort of
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goes on with those who are connected to to the grammar environment. That's incredible. Um,
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oh, why do you call them forms and not years? By the way, as a 52-y old man, I find that particularly handy because I
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can never get my head around the the years. That's exactly why. Why? Like, why do we change things for sake of
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changing them when they work? So, form three to form seven works. A a grade through to an E-grade on your report
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works. A percentage on your report works. So onepage reports much better than having to scroll through like
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parents have to, you know, 50 pages on their their child's report with all these sort of criteria and categories
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that no one really wants to read. Give a comment, give a grade, give a percentage, what's your place in class,
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how you progressing. Um those things are all look they're basic to education. So
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why have we why have we changed them? That's grammar just hasn't. Yeah. So
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this would have been before your time. Yeah. Yeah. DJ Graeme time. Could does the Ministry of Educ Education Do they
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get annoyed by you? Oh, I think they've given up on us. Yeah. You're you're like
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you're big enough to sort of march to the beat of your own drum in a way, aren't you? I think we sort of have an
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agreement with the Ministry of Education if if you leave us alone, we'll leave
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you alone. Um and hopefully hopefully some people in the Ministry of Education look at what we do and go, you know,
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it's a high functioning school and so why do we need to interfere? We we look
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we would ask for help if we needed it from them but typically the Ministry of Education create more um hassles for us.
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I don't think they actually support schools um at all very well. They're
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just pain in the neck. Would you be keen to get into politics one day? No. I could see you as Minister of Education
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though. Like I I could see you making a tangible difference with your experience. Yeah.
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I'd like to be Minister of Education, but I don't want to actually deal with
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all that nonsense in the house where it's just sort of full of total negativity and um you know and and sort
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of gameplay. Whereas if we just get on with doing the job. Yeah, absolutely. But it doesn't seem that that's part of
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politics really. So I don't I don't think I'd make a very good politician.
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I'd probably go redhead. So um what's an average day look like for you? Are you are you putting out
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fires all over the place? No. No, not really. No. Uh, I've got a team of fantastic people who do a whole pile of
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the the the day-to-day sort of logistics. So, um, I'm I'm in a pretty privileged position where those people
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are coming and going from from from my office, you know, checking in on on where we're at on something or if does
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it do do they need to steer on something? Um, but no, my so in my day would be I'm I'm a sort of get up early.
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So to 5:00 I get up and exercise and um do that each morning of the week and then sort of try and have breakfast. If
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my wife's listening to this, she'll go, "This is a load of nonsense." Try and
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have cup of coffee with my wife uh with an um and then I sort of um try to be at
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work by 7 and then I sort of chew through whatever needs to be um done prior to assembly. So, I'd sort of
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normally uh prepared everything for assembly the day prior, but then things sort of crop up overnight. So, I'd
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finish off preparing for assembly, run assembly, um and then um run into whatever the day is. Um, and then by
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this time of the day, typically there'd be subcommittee meetings for the board
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or um heading into events or um this is actually my only um my only afternoon where I didn't have something. So, it
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sort of worked pretty well to be in here. So, yeah, it could be they're quite they're quite long days, but there
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are days where you you're performing different functions and different um so
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it can be that you're speaking at an event. um at at night or speaking at a I've got a there's a prize giving a
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rowing prize giving tomorrow. So there those sort of things. So you just the in an environment like ours the presence of
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the headmaster whether it's me or whether it's the previous or the next headmaster is sort of critical to show
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that you're endorsing what is occurring. Um because you're relying on so many
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different um volunteers. relying on teachers to to give huge amount of their own time to coach to manage to lead
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various activities in the school. So the least you can do is actually be there to
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support them. Do you outsource any of that like coaching from parents or largely our coaching is um by teachers?
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Yeah. Um uh we we do have an expectation that teachers are involved with something in winter and something in
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summer and they do you know they have a fantastic sort of um team of staff who who do all of those things and as you
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know if if something is happening well in a school then there's someone who's
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passionate um who's leading it whether it's you know weightlifting or rugby
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program or you know badminton program or whatever it is there's there's someone
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who's volunteering their time to lead it where we have gaps we we pull in external coaches to fill those gaps and
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or if there's sort of real specialist need things like trying to access someone with rowing expertise is is I
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think any school who who runs a rowing program would be understand exactly what I'm talking about to find someone who
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can actually lead and understand that sort of uh sport is is critical. So where you have to employ someone or get
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a a volunteer from outside of the school, you do. Right. Hey, there's so many more questions
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about um about grammar and about teenage boys and the day-to-day. I mean, yeah, no one knows more about I guess teenage
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boys and education in New Zealand than you with your with your history, which we'll get into. Um first of all, who
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were your mentors growing up and what lessons in particular stuck with you? Um I'm still growing up. I think I've been
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crying up through my entire teaching career. We all are. It's It's funny.
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Like I'm I'm in my 50s now, but sometimes you still feel like a little kid. Yeah. It's weird. You have these
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moments. Yeah. Oh. Well, I think it's a good thing, isn't it? I mean, I can have
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a tendency to be flippant. If you ask a lead our leadership team at school, they'd probably say, "Yeah, flippant"
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would be a word. And in what way? Just in terms of trying to keep things light, right? Um sometimes I'd rather, you
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know, we can be sort of playful. Yeah. Yeah. you can be in some pretty serious sort of meetings and they go back to
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back and I think you want to sometimes to get the best out of people you want them to feel comfortable. So I I would
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often sort of add a a light comment to to to whatever it is to just sort of see if you can break the tone a little bit.
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Um but going back to your question, well obviously my parents were critical. Um I'm a family of five children and I was
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second to youngest. So um some my my my my dad was the head of two different schools. Well he was a deputy head when
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we moved to Palmy and and that was the reason we moved to Palmy and then um he went on to lead two different schools.
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So I was sort of able to see what his you know the lifestyle was was that he led and um so there's no doubt that he
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had an impression on me in terms of uh probably my my personal values what both mom and dad um gave to all of us. But
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then um of course in an educational sense I think I probably subconsciously took a number of the the academic values
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that he had and he was leading in the schools that that he um was in charge of while he was in in Palmy. Um and then
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through there then through um my teaching career there were a number of people who have sort of influenced well
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firstly I guess I never actually aimed to go into teaching. I was one of those sort of people in the seven form who
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went don't know actually what I want to do and so there was my my form master um
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and economics teacher was Donna a dentist and she and she said um you should go into teaching. I was like what
00:20:54
what are you what are you thinking and I talked to um mom and dad about it and dad was like well be careful what you
00:21:01
wish for. Um so I headed into into teaching. I started in a primary environment and with a cuz I we're a
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hockey family so hockey playing family so we all played a hell of a lot a lot of hockey so um Alan Lintz employed me
00:21:15
in a a school in Wongano at Ratherford Intermediate and then I u moved into a boarding environment in Wongano at
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Wongano boys and um the headmaster of the time Ian Hamilton um said to me while I was in housemaster in that
00:21:30
environment while I was teaching at Ratherford um you better come over and for us and I was like well that sounds
00:21:36
like a good idea. So I sort of that happened. Um and the head of English was at the time Kevin Henry was probably
00:21:44
someone who was um when I keep looking back I I look at what Kevin recognized in me and he was he he came to me one
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day with a the good old days where you had an education gazette, you know, a magazine. Um and he came to me with it
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and gave it to me and said there's two jobs highlighted in there and you're
00:22:03
applying for both. Uh one's Tapo New College um and the others Wrapa College
00:22:09
head of English positions and I was what I was 25 at the time and I was like I why would I want to apply for um those
00:22:19
jobs? And he said cuz well you're running my department so go run your own. And I didn't really I didn't
00:22:26
recognize that. Um and so it was probably the first time I went, "Oh, actually maybe I maybe I do like the
00:22:34
leading component um of well just the leading just leading people and yeah, just like a natural
00:22:42
natural sort of leadership qualities perhaps." Yeah. It wasn't anything
00:22:46
deliberate and wasn't anything planned. just sort of he was probably the first
00:22:50
one who articulated it to me and said, you know, like put it on a plate in front of me which made me think and I
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and I did apply for one of those jobs and I and I got it and um sort of just carried on from there. Just accelerated
00:23:04
through the ranks. Yeah. You you went to Palmer North Boys High School from 1981
00:23:08
to 1985. My third form was 86. So Okay. We just missed. We just we just missed. Um what was your house? Phoenix.
00:23:17
Phoenix. Oh, boo. Boo. We won the marching in 1985. Did you? Yeah, we beat Murray. Murray that always wins the
00:23:23
marching. I know. We don't don't ask, but we won. Don't know how we won, but
00:23:27
we did. Yeah. I didn't I didn't particularly um enjoy my my school very much at the time cuz I wasn't
00:23:32
particularly sporty and I wasn't particularly academic. So, I was just one of those people that just sort of
00:23:36
went through, didn't cause any trouble, but didn't sort of get a lot of notice.
00:23:38
But I look back now, um maybe it's type three fun, the sort of thing that's
00:23:42
horrible at the time, but you look back and it it's actually quite um character
00:23:46
building. It's really good. And there's been a couple of things on the podcast
00:23:48
that I've noticed like um Detective Inspector Scott Beard is another guest I've had and he's um older than you and
00:23:54
I. Um and we could connect over over our time at school and you know make jokes and bit of banter about the march.
00:24:00
Absolutely. Were you ever caned by Mr. Brookie? No, I wasn't. And uh probably one of the
00:24:07
reasons my father you know being a being a a principal um the rule was if you if
00:24:13
you get cane to school come home and tell me and I'll and I'll can you again
00:24:17
that sort of parenting you think about that today that we get the opposite. But um and if you don't tell me I'll find
00:24:24
out cuz I'll have a beer with Brookie and when he tells me I'll pay you twice
00:24:27
for everyone you got. So, and I was sort of the youngest. Well, I think um Simon,
00:24:32
my um brother who was just older than me, he he he uh he probably got caned several times over by by the likes of
00:24:39
Brookie. Um no, I didn't get didn't get um I was fortunate enough to move
00:24:44
through the school without getting caned. Um I I enjoyed my time at um Palmy Boys. I think playing sport was a
00:24:52
thing that um that sort of engaged you with the with school environment. I can't say I was an academic. In fact,
00:24:59
some boys at the gate today said to me or the lights at the end of the day said, "Sir, if you went to grammar, what
00:25:04
stream would you have been in?" I know. They said, "Where would you have been?"
00:25:08
And I said, "I've been in A6." And they went, "What does A6 mean?" I said, "I
00:25:11
would have been in room A6." They like, "Oh, that's not a stream." I went, "You
00:25:15
didn't ask me. So, you need to ask me quite clearly your questions, boys."
00:25:19
But I, you know, I said to them, I'd been sort of H probably, you know, um I
00:25:24
was I was a good average student who wasn't passionate about um learning at that point in time. And I wish in lots
00:25:30
of ways I we we had people who actually told us why we were learning and why how
00:25:37
important it would be because when you're a bit older, you work it out, right? Yeah, absolutely. Do you do you
00:25:43
from where you stand out? I mean the um the the caning thing that was a long time ago. I think that was abolished
00:25:47
midway through my time at school. Something you said before resonated with me because um yeah, I think because it
00:25:53
was on the cusp like parents had a right they could either opt in or opt out of the caning. Um and my parents most
00:25:58
definitely opted in. And if I ever got in trouble at school and I went home and told my parents like there wouldn't
00:26:03
there wouldn't be any presumption of innocence. It would just immediately be
00:26:06
well you must have deserved it. We we just trusted the teachers was always right, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. Do you
00:26:13
do you um Yeah. Would that be helpful for you in this day and age if you're able to cane kids? No. No. I I I I've
00:26:22
changed my view on that through my teaching career. Um but I don't think I can't think of a case other than, you
00:26:30
know, if you if you get frustrated that you might think it's a good thing, but
00:26:34
what what is that doing? All it would be doing is actually, you know, helping helping me um with my frustration, but
00:26:41
it's not going to actually teach anyone anything. Again, I think when we go through discipline processes, we we're
00:26:46
quite um objective with the boys and we keep talking to the boys and their parents about their behavior, not about
00:26:52
them as a person. And that this is the behavior that we're we're responding to.
00:26:57
And uh yeah, I don't I don't think anything be won by anything would be won
00:27:01
by um hitting hitting hitting a child um or a student now because uh you'd just
00:27:08
be you'd just be disrespected. M Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Sure
00:27:14
as [ __ ] worked for me. You get caned in the library for you once by Brookie and
00:27:18
you didn't want to go back a second time on a Monday morning. No, but he would
00:27:22
call out who he had hit the the following day at assembly, wouldn't he? List of names. Laundry list of names.
00:27:28
Yeah. I mean, the world's changed. That's the difference. I think, you know, I didn't think anything of it in
00:27:32
the in the 80s when I was at school when, you know, guys were lining up outside to be caned outside in the
00:27:37
quadrangle so that everyone could hear the resounding swing, you know, and and the hit. Um, but there they were also
00:27:44
had they also had some empathy in there too because they worked out whether you actually needed to be caned or not. And
00:27:51
I think there were a couple of occasions where I've I'd been into to see Errol um
00:27:56
Brookie as when he was senior master and um when he and you say just sat down and
00:28:01
had a conversation and went okay well we'll sort this out because he only through entering the teaching career
00:28:08
have I looked back and gone actually I've I worked it out he understood that
00:28:12
that teacher's response wasn't the right response so we're not we're not going
00:28:17
anywhere with it. M god there were so many characters at that school eh like you and I we could sit here for an hour
00:28:23
and tell stories about um Digger Doyle or Wigglesworth or Psome Portius or Yeah. Some of them are still around.
00:28:34
Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Does Grammy have that sort of thing? Teachers that have
00:28:37
just been you, you know, spend their entire life there? Yeah. Uh look, the oldest serving master at grammar, the
00:28:44
longest serving um grammar master at the moment is Justin Burrows, and he's in
00:28:48
his 41st year, you know, at grammar. So, and he's a um I sort of describe him as
00:28:54
an artist and resident because he's an artist in his own right. Um but he's a a
00:28:58
well admired, you know, teacher of painting. So, um and and still a contributor, you know, still managing
00:29:04
the under 15 rugby team and those sort of things. So, he's he's active. So uh
00:29:09
those sort of people bring with them an institutional knowledge and they can quietly say hey I love the way we did x
00:29:16
y and zed which is new or hey we we do x y and zed because of this reason you know so some of those rituals and those
00:29:25
um key aspects of belonging for a school like grammar are are held true by some of those mast's presence. Oh that's
00:29:32
brilliant. So after you leave boys high you go to teal teachers college. Um then
00:29:36
you do some studies at Massie and then um some um leadership papers at Harvard. Was this extra murally or did you go to
00:29:45
Harvard? I went to Harvard. Um wow. How was that? Oh yeah. Fantastic. Um so I won a a fellowship to um travel and we
00:29:54
did so as a family. It was maybe five or six years into my tenure at Palmy Boys and um and so as part of that was um
00:30:04
heading to Harvard to do the educational leadership program and with um largely heads from around the world who who
00:30:12
gathered together. phenomenal a great yeah wonderful experience and and I was fortunate enough to have um a similar
00:30:19
have similar opportunity la two years ago we went to graduate school of educ graduate school of business and did a um
00:30:26
executive leadership program and they're just great opportunity to sort of hear
00:30:32
from the world's best um to be with people like-minded sort of people from around the world uh to be able to
00:30:40
compare stories um but to also then sort just get time to reflect on, you know, where you're at in your own um sort of
00:30:48
career, but also where you're at with the role that you're performing. What
00:30:52
are the biggest lessons about leadership you got from Harvard? H communication. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we spent a day on
00:30:59
body language um from a body language, you know, expert who's written books um
00:31:05
on it. And I I've I've used them with boys. In fact, I should be trying to use
00:31:10
them in this seat. um you know just about presentation like if you if you are presenting then have your shoulders
00:31:16
back like use the entire what what you've been given use it to your advantage. If you're sitting in a in a
00:31:22
chair then make sure you know your bum's back in the chair and you're sitting
00:31:26
upright because again it gives a it gives an impression about who you are um as as a as a leader. So yeah. Yeah.
00:31:33
Critical. But and also one of the things that I I sort of think about quite a bit
00:31:38
from that course is um if you want to bring people with you um can you tell them using it a story rather than just
00:31:50
um stating it as it is which isn't as easy as you think when you you know you
00:31:55
got to think of a relevant story or make up a relevant story in order to get your
00:32:00
message across. Um but it but when you tell something as a story, you certainly see people um connect with you much more
00:32:10
just cuz it's easier for them to absorb the information that way with the story.
00:32:13
Oh, that's really interesting. Um can leadership be taught? It seems like you
00:32:17
were like a natural leader or you just sort of gravitated towards it from what you were saying earlier. Is it something
00:32:22
that can be taught or people just sort of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think leadership uh look you can have
00:32:28
leadership attributes but leadership can absolutely be taught. Um and I mean they
00:32:33
are the things that we are trying to do for for boys. While we might name still name prefects and do those sort of
00:32:39
things, it doesn't mean that you're restricted from leading in any sort of
00:32:42
sense. Um and and for from what we we talked to the boys about if when you leave this environment, can you answer
00:32:51
three questions? um who who am I? Um where do I fit in? And and how can I serve others? And if you can answer
00:32:58
those three questions after your time at grammar, then you're going to actually
00:33:03
be a pretty good contributor to society. Um because if you don't know who you are
00:33:08
for a start, then you can't actually do any of the other things. You have to
00:33:12
know, you have to be comfortable in your own skin, right? M. And so the boys who
00:33:16
tend to stray and wander, the first thing we actually spend time with them on is like, "Who do you want to be?"
00:33:23
Like, "Do you know?" And have that conversation because when they have
00:33:28
that, then you've got something to aim for and a reason to actually get out of
00:33:32
bed every day and say, "Well, if I do these things today, then that's going to
00:33:37
help me be the person I I want to be. If I do them again tomorrow, then obviously
00:33:41
it becomes good habit forming. This is great stuff. Yeah, the these this Yeah, these are really really
00:33:49
valuable lessons and takeaways here. So, thanks for sharing. What about you? How's your leadership style changed over
00:33:53
the years? Has it has it changed as you've as you've got older and spent more time in
00:33:59
the role? It'd be great to have a omniscient sort of view on that, wouldn't it? And sort of a drone eye
00:34:06
sort of view. I think some people will laugh at this, but I I think I've probably mellowed um in in my
00:34:15
approach. Um I I mean I'm quite black and white in what I think how I think education um
00:34:25
should be conducted. Um, and but I think I can see more gray the longer um I'm in the role and working
00:34:34
with boys. So that we don't have to be it doesn't always have to be X or Y. And
00:34:40
I think boys are very accepting of that that there are rules of rules for example but sometimes they actually have
00:34:46
to be exceptions to those rules um in order to accommodate um people with a whole range of beliefs. While the
00:34:54
majority of us actually continue in the same vein, I would have probably previously said no, it has to be that
00:35:01
because otherwise as soon as there's an exception, it'll erode overall. But I
00:35:05
don't think it has to be like that necessarily. You do you think that's an age thing, an
00:35:11
experience thing? You're just getting softer in your old age or It'd be interesting for you to ask ask
00:35:18
people that. I'm not sure what I haven't been described as soft, I don't think.
00:35:23
And I actually talked to the boys about one of the the um quotes I I love using with the boys is Rory Sabatini's um lick
00:35:33
the lollipop of mediocrity once and you'll suck it forever. Um so I've never
00:35:38
heard that one before. Haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's fantastic one.
00:35:42
sort of I talk to boys about the fact that you know there are there are 1 percententers in our community you know
00:35:48
and 1 percententers are people who just don't contribute and don't want to
00:35:52
contribute and there will always be 1 percententers and we have 1 percententers in our environment too and
00:35:58
you know those people actually drag us down but we actually have to identify that that's who they are not join them
00:36:04
because otherwise that number grows and as soon as that number grows they can actually change the quality of society
00:36:11
they can change the quality of our school environment. Like a bad apple in the barrel. That's right. It just, you
00:36:15
know, there's there's a tipping point. And so, lick the lollipop of mediocrity
00:36:20
once or you'll suck it forever is a great sort of thing to stick. And you think about storytelling, you you you
00:36:25
think about that, right? You picture that. And um so whenever I sort of pull that quote out, the boys sort of like we
00:36:33
know what's coming next. The mediocrity sort of speech. Um so I don't know. I don't know that I'd be I
00:36:41
I don't I think I think it's I think you just as you see more in in life that you actually just
00:36:49
you you do tweak and you know I try to read different perspectives. I try to you know listen to you know various
00:36:59
podcasts and try to listen to something every morning for sort of 20 minutes. So, it's sort of you're getting your
00:37:04
your thought pattern tested and your uh and and your beliefs sort of tested either confirming them or thinking
00:37:11
actually maybe I should take a different approach to that. Well, I suppose that's
00:37:15
good leadership as well being open to um be challenged or change your opinions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that
00:37:21
that's sort of another critical thing. I think I've probably been quite well I
00:37:26
have been direct in my leadership style. My way of the highway. Yeah. could could
00:37:31
be um but one of the things that I have been challenged on by going through like
00:37:36
human synergistics processes um and some of the fantastic work that they do is um
00:37:41
can you step back can you just step back and let other people um share their view
00:37:47
because actually through them sharing their view you you build they come in more than actually here's the answer um
00:37:55
so I'm relatively impatient sort of person I like sort of actions and sort of orientated like to move things along,
00:38:02
but in order if you if you move them too quickly, then you're not necessarily
00:38:06
bringing people with you. So, I'm I've sort of worked on that um more recently
00:38:11
to try and pull people in because they've actually they have got the answers. They know what the ethos of
00:38:16
grammar is. They know where we're heading and so they actually have the answers.
00:38:21
What about vulnerability and leadership? Is there Yeah. Yeah. I think Yeah, I I think so. if you if you when when you
00:38:30
stuff things up, you have to own those or not necessarily even stuff them up, but if it didn't go quite according to
00:38:36
plan, I think you you own it. And I I I think that's and it doesn't matter
00:38:42
whether it's someone else's error when you're leading a team. It's actually
00:38:45
your it's you own it. You don't aortion blame to the person, you know, who made
00:38:52
an error that we actually go, "No, that's an Oakland Grammar School error
00:38:55
and I own that." um and and um when you protect the the people where things went
00:39:00
wrong and then of course off line you go and sort of fix up and make sure that that's not going to be repeated. Yeah.
00:39:07
And if you do that you actually end up because we're dealing with so many different scenarios and if you think
00:39:12
about for example the health and safety of 2,700 boys on site. If you think about education outside the classroom
00:39:20
environments where we're sending kids kids, teenagers, you know, chemically imbalanced young men out into the world,
00:39:27
um then we have to have systems in place and we're relying on people to understand what those systems are and
00:39:34
employ them given the contexts. So, the last thing we want is for them not to feel that they're trusted, but know that
00:39:40
we're there to um to support them because then hopefully the big issues just don't arise.
00:39:49
I love that. Oh, um you just to time stamp uh this conversation. It's late May 2025. Um did you add assembly this
00:39:57
morning or any morning this week, have you talked about the run it straight thing? Yeah, I did. Spoke about it this
00:40:02
morning. Yeah. Did you? What? Yeah. What did you say about that? I'd already spoken to them at the start
00:40:06
of the term because it was just it was just coming up as a as a thing um on international media. It hadn't hadn't uh
00:40:14
well we have seen run it straight for a little while. Every now and then it would pop up in the school grounds like
00:40:20
a like like ball rush um does and I don't so much have trouble with ball rush but the run it straight things just
00:40:28
senseless. Um, so I said to I did say to the boys at the start of the term like run it straight. We're like boys we're
00:40:36
not we're not doing it. Um, and we'll deal with it at the very high end if if
00:40:40
you actually start that. Uh, and um, and gave them the reasons. I didn't actually
00:40:46
go to the extent of um, you know, death at that point in time. Um, but today I I
00:40:53
just I've actually started the assembly after the after the prayer both. So before we move on to the day, I do want
00:40:59
to just acknowledge, you know, the passing of the young man who's Palmy boy's old boy. Um, and you know, isn't
00:41:06
it isn't it a tragedy, boys, that we're actually find ourselves um having this
00:41:12
discussion today that someone died from something that we talked about not being
00:41:16
involved with. And so I hope you understand that sometimes when we're talking to you, we're not necessarily
00:41:22
being the fun police. We're actually doing things from a perspective about what's best for you. And you might not
00:41:28
see that right now, but you I hope you now understand because, you know, if it if it wasn't death, then there could be
00:41:36
some serious injuries that could impede what you can do for the rest of your life. It's just not worth it. Teenage
00:41:43
boys, for the most part, we're pretty dumb, aren't we? Like when it comes to
00:41:48
decision- making, I think probably as men sometimes. Yeah. It takes a while to get there, but we
00:41:54
love love physical physicality. Eh, do you sort of um Yeah, you sort of encourage that. You mentioned ball rush
00:42:00
before. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But like the boys would be if our top field at Grammar that is typically open every
00:42:07
lunchtime every interval so that they can you know there are 100 games of sandal tennis and there's a game of
00:42:14
touch or you know playing uh sorry sandal cricket playing cricket with your sandal because you don't have a bat
00:42:20
because you're disorganized because you actually didn't put a bat and you you
00:42:22
know are using like a rubbish bin as wickets or something. Well or some you know some poor boy as the wickets. what
00:42:30
you know there's all these games that are going on and they sort of cross over
00:42:33
each other um and some and we walk through the middle of the these every day on the field and typically don't get
00:42:41
hit by anything which is sort of amazing and nor do they seem to so we have a general rule on physicality in the
00:42:49
grounds and is that that is like play with a boy or play with boys your own size like like think about it like do
00:42:56
not if you're a young third former play with um you know members of the front
00:43:01
row of the first 15 like while that might be admirable in terms of uh what you think is courageous it's stupid. So
00:43:09
play all the play get involved with physic as physical in physical manner as much as you like as long as it's not um
00:43:16
again the other aspect is we talked to them about it's not sport in the grounds
00:43:21
at lunchtime. So it's not you know being played with strict rules and guidelines
00:43:26
and a referee. So you actually have to remember don't get carried away. Um and
00:43:31
give it and give a little bit or take a you know give and take a little bit. Uh because that's critical. It's a game
00:43:36
rather than sport. And um I think um largely they get that. We we get the um you know sponsored by St. John's
00:43:43
ambulance service rocking on up. We've got a wonderful team of nurses at school
00:43:48
who who are sort of looking after boys on a daily basis as well. But largely happens. It's important that they're
00:43:55
physical. Um and we've actually structured our day so that um there are so a seven period day typically um five
00:44:04
lessons before lunch um and um then lunch and two lessons after lunch job done. So that they actually have the
00:44:12
chance just once they're being physical back into class. You know you got two
00:44:15
40-minute lessons to go. And all of our lessons are 40 minutes because you know short um sort of time span for boys. Get
00:44:23
in 40 minutes. Get get whatever the content is. get out, get on to your next thing. And you know, you got your teach
00:44:29
you see your teacher every day. So I don't have to think, oh, I got to do my
00:44:32
homework tonight. I have to do my homework tonight cuz I got my class tomorrow. 40 minutes is very very short. By the
00:44:39
time you get settled and open your books, it doesn't leave a lot of time. Eh, yes. Research says it's a good
00:44:45
length of time to to learn. You know, one or two key teaching points, some opportunity to actually put it into
00:44:51
place, sum it up, homework, job done. And and you know people who say uh homework's a bad thing. Well, homework's
00:44:59
actually the the reinforcement of learning. And if you're not doing that on a if boys aren't doing that on a on a
00:45:05
night by basis, then they're losing out because they they're just not locking
00:45:09
things into their memory. You know, we we we all know you want something to stay in your memory, then you need to
00:45:14
repeat it and you need to uh layer it and across uh various times within a 24 48 hour period. Otherwise, it'll, you
00:45:22
know, a good portion of it's gone. Are you strict at um keeping on top of your
00:45:28
teachers and making sure they're distributing the homework? The reason I bring this up, when I started at Boy
00:45:32
High, I found it daunting in the beginning because I got told five lessons every day and you would have
00:45:37
half an hour of homework each night from each each class. So, two and a half hours of homework every night. And for
00:45:42
the first couple of weeks, it was like that. But then a lot of the teachers sort of dropped off, which as a student,
00:45:47
I appreciated. Yeah. Well, you would, wouldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to tell
00:45:52
anyone that. You don't want to, you know. Oh, no. It was like a Yeah. It was
00:45:55
like a code. You don't You don't break. We have a a homework diary system. There
00:45:59
is an expectation you're getting homework from every every teacher every day. Um we've been through um again,
00:46:05
this is the the presence thing to reinforce it. We've been through the third form classes, for example. Uh I've
00:46:11
been through every class three times this year. Um and check diaries on every single time through classes. Check you
00:46:18
want to see parent signature in may want to see your homework's in there. Um,
00:46:22
some individual conversations with a few boys who might have forgotten them. Um,
00:46:25
and um, so little visit to my office to show me that those sort of things. Um, and not necessarily as a punitive thing,
00:46:32
but actually to reinforce how critical it is that you maintain a diary. And if you think about that in our daily lives,
00:46:38
if we're not able to maintain a diary, then we waste time, you know, waste time
00:46:43
in every day. M is is your with these um when you're um disciplining boys, does
00:46:49
your communication style vary from kid to kid? So like I suppose there's some
00:46:53
kids that you you need to yell at to get the messaging through or is it you sort
00:46:58
of the same across the board regardless of the individual? No, it's different different boy to boy.
00:47:05
No doubt about that. But I yelling doesn't yelling doesn't work. It just,
00:47:10
you know, we go put that back to the 1980s, you know, smell Errol Brookie's pipe and then hear his voice down the
00:47:18
down the corridor, right? Well, there's nothing there's nothing won out of yelling cuz all it shows them is that
00:47:25
you've lost control. Um, so it'd be pretty pretty rare that I would I would
00:47:32
yell um at anyone probably other than my own children when I've lost the plot.
00:47:38
They're all adults now, are they? Yeah, they are. Yeah. So, um yeah. So, so uh
00:47:42
Palmer Boys High for your education, then you left and you came back and you were the recctor. That's what it's
00:47:48
that's what it's called there from um 2002. So, it was like 17 years after you
00:47:53
left to when you came back. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah. What had changed in that time for better and for worse?
00:48:01
Um I think the work that um Dave Sims did as as recctor who was before me was phenomenal. actually that place was
00:48:09
locked down um in terms of standards and expectations of boys. So for a first headship to come in and I was again I
00:48:18
was young and I had never actually thought I would win that post and um was fortunate to do so and fortunate to go
00:48:26
into a school that had been so wellrun um that what I all I needed to do was actually follow um what he you know
00:48:33
follow the rhythm effectively for the first we while um I I think it was a much better school
00:48:40
than when you and I were there And and that's nothing about the leadership of
00:48:45
the school. I just think it had evolved into a place where uh you know young men
00:48:50
were were able to be young men and it didn't matter whether you were you know
00:48:54
a rugby player, a debater, a musician or you know part of the leadership program
00:48:59
you know that these things were all being respected and um I just think the school had evolved.
00:49:06
What's that like? So leaving as a student and then coming back as the as the head. It's crazy really. Hey, it's
00:49:11
crazy. So, there must be teachers there that taught you and you suddenly you're
00:49:15
suddenly like a their boss. Yeah, I actually The imposter syndrome must have been in insane in the beginning. Oh,
00:49:23
yeah. No, I I I did wonder what the board was doing um appointing me at the time. Um but um on my
00:49:33
first day um the very first staff briefing at Palmy Boys, I actually had my seven form report with me um and I
00:49:42
read out some of the comments and some of the teachers were in the room and um I remember um a teacher who I I highly
00:49:50
respected in my sim form was Jared Okconor who probably would have Dr. He's my favorite English teacher. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:55
Mine too. and made another guy called Dennis Duffy. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, both or Dennis taught Latin when
00:50:01
you as well. Um and um I read out um the comment that um Gerarded um and I didn't
00:50:08
attribute it to a name and then and I said this teacher who u made this comment in my sim form report also on my
00:50:15
very first assessment the first essay I wrote in his English class um in my sim for he gave me zero for and he and his
00:50:22
comment on that I still I still remember the comment on that bottom of that essay
00:50:26
was if you'd written on the topic this would have been 17 out of 20 not zero
00:50:32
But I I actually learned a lot, you know, he it was like quite clever on his part to to do that because I was like,
00:50:39
"Okay, hell, I've got to adjust and my best mark in sim form um was English."
00:50:44
Um and why I I I loved his style of teaching. I loved his interest in in me and um his directness. So you know if
00:50:54
when teachers grab um the attention of of students then typically particularly boys they will learn the teacher rather
00:51:04
than necessarily learn the subject. Oh 100% I couldn't agree more and um yeah
00:51:09
English was my my best subject and I I flourished in it and then you have this this bond with these teachers and you
00:51:14
want to do you want to do well for them. Yeah. And you respond well to them. Yeah. Um it's really impactful eh. Oh it
00:51:20
is totally. So 10 years on the job in in Palmer North and then you you start to get
00:51:26
bored, you looking for a new challenge or or how did the grammar thing come about? Are you shoulder tapped or um no
00:51:32
no I hadn't wasn't I had uh people in the grammar community um um sort of
00:51:40
communicating with me through a range of methods um saying hey look the grammar job will be coming up shortly in the
00:51:48
next year or two. it would be great if if if you applied for the job. Uh and I think that's something that um Grammar
00:51:54
has been very uh good at through time is saying well okay there is this is the headmaster but now we've got to prepare
00:52:01
for who the next headmaster is. So the succession planning component of of grammar has been very very clever.
00:52:07
They're not prepared to let it happen by chance. So you need to hand in like a
00:52:12
5year notice period or No. Well, part of the job that I have and it's made pretty clear to me, not
00:52:19
necessarily um by from the board, but from the grammar community because there are groups um who support me in my role
00:52:28
and there who who have got a you know invested and Siron Carter is a great example um of that who make it pretty
00:52:35
clear to you that part of your job is to ensure that you are uh preparing others
00:52:41
to become leaders who could potentially pick up the Oakland Grammar School role.
00:52:45
And what's the best way of doing that is to actually have them go out and lead
00:52:48
other schools first so that they could come back. And um so I I do take that aspect of of the job, you know, very
00:52:56
very very seriously. Um, and I I'd probably I hadn't thought about I hadn't
00:53:04
thought about the only reason I applied for Palmy Boys because I was at Nelson College at the time and I was loving it
00:53:09
and um Ann had my wife would would would um agree that when I applied for the job
00:53:15
um she said, "What are you what are you what are you doing? We we've just
00:53:19
finished renovating a house and we've got a view over Tasman Bay and you want
00:53:23
to go to Palmer North? Like what what's the view? Is she from parley? She's not.
00:53:28
No, she was uh from up the parapara um back at Wongano. She's a farm girl. And
00:53:34
um so uh and I said, "Look, it's my old school. I I need to apply for it just so
00:53:40
it's out of my system. I got no chance of getting it." And so and and and ended
00:53:45
up getting it. And um so when after probably seven years at PMY boys, I felt good about where the school was
00:53:55
at and I was discussing that with the chair of the board and uh another um job in Oakland came up and there was sort of
00:54:03
an HR company trying to encourage me to apply for that and the um the chair of our board said you should go and look
00:54:10
just for professional development and I I said then I think there's only one
00:54:15
school that I actually would move from or move to from here and that's Oakland
00:54:22
Grammar School and that's really because I I had um admiration while I was at
00:54:29
Palmy Boys of grammar just sort of had something about it you know when you played grammar there was sort of a sort
00:54:35
of a gentle arrogance or something about them or there was just and I thought you
00:54:39
know and so grammar had intrigued me and DJ Graham who was the ninth headmaster of the school I had huge respect for and
00:54:49
I would often communicate with DJ when I was um head of Palmy boys just about educational philosophy things to sort of
00:54:57
sometimes you you got to check whether you've you've you're on the right track
00:55:03
or whether you've actually moved off track and I found DJ the voice of reason
00:55:07
for me to be someone who would just go you know you're on the right track or no
00:55:11
no have you thought about this or have you thought about that um so the wisdom that that guy had and his contributions
00:55:18
to education in this country were phenomenal. So when the opportunity came to apply for grammar I I I did and um
00:55:25
yeah went through you know a thorough I think three or four interviews um and presentations and all of those sort of
00:55:32
aspects as part of the job and ultimately ended up winning it which I was um stoked about. You what do they
00:55:40
ask you? I mean, they already know what you're capable of, right? Like you've
00:55:43
proven yourself at a at a very high level at another school. Well, I I probably the question that sticks in my
00:55:49
Well, there's there are all sorts of questions and I think probably the board
00:55:53
at the time were if they were had concerns because it was a highly effective, you know, a board like a
00:56:01
commercial board of quality um where here's this sort of hick from Palmer Mr.
00:56:07
north like going to come into central Oakland in this sort of high-profile school and what's he going to do do to
00:56:13
this place? Um and the question that still sticks in my mind is the one that Pit Mure um asked me um and Pit Pit was
00:56:23
a highly effective member of the board and is still connected with the school. Um, and her question was, "So, um, Tim,
00:56:31
um, what if I said to you that Oakland Grammar School's a modern central Oakland school and, you know, hair
00:56:40
length and uniform are really not that important, you know, like we we need to move with what c the vibe of what
00:56:48
central Oakland is." And and I said, "Um, well, employ the other guy." Um and
00:56:57
and she is that is that your answer? I said, "Yeah, no, it is cuz I'm not your
00:57:01
guy." Like so you have to you have to live the role like this. The the role is
00:57:07
it's a vocation really um and a lifestyle. So I couldn't work in an environment where that was going to be
00:57:13
like we're going to just it turned me just drive me insane. So it was a pretty
00:57:18
brief response and then I was leaving the interview. um the HR the lady from the HR company running it. She sort of
00:57:25
we walked down to the lifts and she said, "I don't think I've ever seen
00:57:28
someone self-destruct as quickly as as you have in your interview." I said,
00:57:32
"Oh, well, it's like it's either going to be or it's not going to be." So,
00:57:36
there's no point saying you're something that you're not. Was it a trick
00:57:40
question? I were they testing your answer. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Oh,
00:57:47
so you you passed. Well, Pip sort of Pip and I have we've sort of laughed about
00:57:51
it um um since that time many many times. And I think we've probably that story's been told a few times, but um
00:58:00
I think um where they wanted grammar to be was sort of synced into its tradition and who it
00:58:08
was. Um and but they weren't giving me any indication of that. M so it was like
00:58:14
you know you better um staple your your position to the to the flag post um and say what you believe in and and I think
00:58:23
you I think in a role like that and and Pip were clever enough to understand that if you if you don't actually have
00:58:30
some beliefs and you're not prepared to stand by them well I tell you what you're going to have a hell of a lot
00:58:34
more challenges that you're going to face when you're in the role. Yeah, I I
00:58:38
used to love that in Palmer North. Um, at least once a year I feel like in the Manow to evening standard there was a
00:58:43
story about some kid that got sent home for shoulder length hair and the mum the
00:58:46
mum's making a song and dance about it. It's like they wheel out the same story
00:58:49
every year. Well, all it does is sort of market the school, doesn't it? Quite.
00:58:53
Yeah, it says what you Yeah. Exactly what you stand for. Yeah. It's on the tin. Yeah. And there's plenty of other
00:58:59
schools. Go to go to a tap, go to QE, go to Fryburg. We still say that in the en
00:59:04
uh enrollment evening. It's like, you know, here are when we go through all of
00:59:08
the expectations and then if you don't like it, well, don't come here. There
00:59:13
are plenty of schools with open entry, go to one of those. What are um the hard and fast um
00:59:18
expectations or rules? The kids are allowed to vape at lunchtime. E just sit there on their phone for half
00:59:25
an hour and have There's a whole pile of nos. No mobile phones, no vaping, no
00:59:29
socks down, you know, shoot on time, you know, all the the systems are. So the boys know what the systems are. Like if
00:59:38
you're late to us, if you're if you're coming up Mountain Road at 8:53, the
00:59:45
bell on the old bell um on top of the main block, there's a prefect, you know,
00:59:50
ringing that from a, you know, lengthy cord on the top of the seafloor. And that r that rings for two minutes. Um
00:59:56
and it gives an indication that in two minutes if that bell's ringing, you haven't got long to get inside the
01:00:01
assembly hall because at 8:55 all of the doors automatically lock and there's
01:00:06
only one door open and that goes to the late room. So you're then in you're then
01:00:11
in a in a late you get three late and you're 2 hours 3:30 to 5:30 after school
01:00:16
on a Friday. Um, so but the systems are the systems and it's not like there are
01:00:22
going to be boys who get who who who actually hit that threshold and they have to sit in the hall. Doesn't matter
01:00:26
who you are. The rules are the same. So don't be late. I love that. There's something really
01:00:32
cool about that. E it's a reality of reality of life. Like when you get into
01:00:36
the the workforce there's going to be someone that's you know there's going to
01:00:38
be rules that you have to follow and consequences if you don't follow them. Um how do you do the phone thing? What
01:00:44
do you do with phones? Well, kids are allowed to bring their phones to school. Yep. If you're then they're not visible.
01:00:50
If you drive past Grammar in the morning before they're coming on site, they can
01:00:54
use their phones off site. So, it's sort of like a if it's they're like a
01:00:58
gathering outside the main gates while they're getting their last fix on their
01:01:02
mobile phones. As soon as they're on on site, they they're they're meant to be
01:01:06
off and they can have them in their pocket if they want, but as soon as it's
01:01:09
visible, then it'll be confiscated. And um there's a process for confiscation.
01:01:14
They lose them for seven days. Um and then they collect them after that. Um one of the deputy headmasters,
01:01:20
Dave Escu, he looks after all phones and if you go in there, it could be like, you know, there's a rooster crowing and
01:01:26
there's a alarm going off and it's all like a big massive bowl of devices. Exactly. Um what what about um
01:01:35
so if you if you get caught vaping, what's that? Is that like a a suspension
01:01:38
detention? Yeah, they'd go before there'd be a parental meeting um with the deputy headmaster and then that
01:01:44
would be typically brought through to me for a judgment on where what the sort of
01:01:49
consequences, but it'll be it's up there. It's a that's a breach of our
01:01:52
fundamental school rules. So, drugs, vaping, alcohol, um those those sort of things are are
01:01:59
breaches of fundamental rules which would um be something that would end up getting presented to me. Yeah. Wow.
01:02:06
So your first day on the job um when you get to grammar um what's that like?
01:02:11
You've got no history or no connection with the with with the school. So I'm
01:02:14
guessing you you probably felt felt like what the junior boys would feel like at
01:02:17
the first day of a new year. Yeah. Well, I started at the beginning of term four.
01:02:21
Um so what was it late October? And um so it was an assembly. the chair of the board welcomed me and I spoke to the
01:02:31
boys and told them that I was going to be observing and um that had largely happened in term four and um once I'd
01:02:39
sort of observed enough then there'd be some changes made for the beginning of
01:02:43
um the following year what was that 2013 the following year and um uh I think the seven formers all went
01:02:51
thank god for that um and here's this new guy who's who's he you know they'd
01:02:56
had John Morris for 20 years so um they weren't ready to have some new guy in
01:03:00
the last term, but but they all were moving off to do Cambridge exams anyway. So I they were only on campus for maybe
01:03:06
two or 3 weeks. Um but then uh the second day I I went to the lectern at assembly and said, "Okay, I've I've
01:03:17
finished watching." Um and there's stuff that has to change. Just for example, um
01:03:23
you know, a flagship school doesn't have litter on the grounds. So there won't be
01:03:27
any litter on the grounds today. So that's my first my my finishing of observation is we're now having no
01:03:34
rubbish on the grounds. And um this is how we're going to do it. And I went through a process with them of what my
01:03:39
expectations were to get rid of rubbish. And from that point on, that was sort of
01:03:44
a critical thing to change just quality of environment, you know, so respect and
01:03:50
um of of the environment, respect of the sort of school that they're part of. So,
01:03:53
we got rid of rubbish pretty quickly. Um moved away from things like, you know, form classes going around and um picking
01:04:01
up rubbish after lunch. So, the place is tidy. We we'll just sort of pretend that
01:04:04
no one dropped any rubbish, but actually the place was a tip. Because again if you go back to any environment you know
01:04:12
you can say you are these things but and you and schools market themselves for example don't they on we are all these
01:04:20
things but the reality is um confirmed by those who are part of the environment as to whether it actually occurs. And so
01:04:28
we've been of the belief with boys is that we're not fudging anything. Um,
01:04:32
we're not having open days. Like, we'll bring people in on any day and they'll
01:04:36
see us for who we are and and you guys have to live it on a daily basis because we're not marketing. We're not we're not
01:04:42
not into marketing. We're not into all this flashy stuff. We're just going to
01:04:45
be who we are. And I think the boys boys buy into that. They, you know, if you're
01:04:50
going to be, again, go back to you're proud of your environment, then then you
01:04:54
actually respect it and you live it on a daily basis, you know. I I think as humans, we just
01:04:59
want to be part of something as well. Yep. part of something something greater. There's there's there's another
01:05:04
saying it's like um if you get four people that are smokers and you hang out
01:05:07
with them, you'll be the fifth. And you four four obese people, you'll be the
01:05:11
fifth. And it works the other way as well. So if if there's four four people
01:05:14
that are picking up their litter, you're going to be the fifth person that picks
01:05:17
up your litter or doesn't litter in the first place, I think. Yeah. Well, you
01:05:19
just won't see litter around Grammar now, you know, or you you you will, but
01:05:23
you know, it's not there for long. Um because they know what the standard is.
01:05:27
And when you've when you've got 2,700 odd um you know boys on a campus, it
01:05:32
wouldn't be hard to to tip it the other way. That's the you you the philosophy
01:05:37
you just that's a James Clear Atomic Habits um philosophy, isn't it? Love
01:05:42
that book. Yeah. And I tell you the other books um our staff and the boys will um would would expect me to mention
01:05:49
Owen Eastwood and Belonging. I don't know whether you've read it. No. Um he's
01:05:53
a Kiwi. um he's a sports psychologist and um he talks about the sort of the the moldy philosophy of of belonging and
01:06:03
um that when we belong we actually um we we we feel like we're part of something
01:06:09
bigger than ourselves and we can be better. Uh and so we we talk to the boys a lot about um belonging and and and
01:06:16
what and the school that they're part of and how they contribute. Mhm. Um something that's been huge especially
01:06:24
I think over the last decade uh while you've been at Grammar is um the mental
01:06:28
health crisis in New Zealand and particularly um that's a thing with young men. Um what about you personally
01:06:33
like Yeah. How's your mental health been over the years? Yeah. Fine. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:37
Has it been good? How um Yeah. Would you describe yourself as a resilient person?
01:06:42
Yeah. Yeah. Built or made that way? Um, I think when when you're growing up in the in the in the 80s and you're part
01:06:51
of a family and I two older brothers who beat the snot out of me most days, um, then um, you learn to be resilient
01:06:57
pretty quickly, don't you? And you learn, you Yeah. Well, you learn all those components about natural hierarchy
01:07:04
and, um, basic respect. And if you're not going to respect, then you can expect a consequence, physical as it was
01:07:10
in those days from my brothers. Um but um I I I I have a if you you need to be able to park stuff. If you can't park
01:07:19
things, then you can allow them to eat you up. So critical for me that I'm physical every day. Um so that you can
01:07:28
actually blow stuff out. you can have a clear head to begin the day and um that um you have trusted people who you can
01:07:36
have as a sounding board to you know to effectively be confidants to go hey look
01:07:42
we're dealing with this and this is a bit this is this isn't that great but um
01:07:47
as long as you got people who you can talk to and trust um then yeah I think you can grow in resilience we actually
01:07:56
talk now to to the boys about growing in anti-fragility ility, you know, where if
01:08:02
we in an exam, you know, people now shying away from exams and everything needs to be sort of standardsbased
01:08:08
assessment. Let's not have too many exams. Well, we'd say you just build
01:08:12
resilience in that. You learn how to sit exams so that then that you just become
01:08:15
familiar. The more you do it, the more you you're actually comfortable doing
01:08:19
it. And um so that's that's that growing of anti-fragility so that when things go
01:08:26
wrong, you have the tools to be able to cope. Yeah. Because it seems like there's this
01:08:32
this generation where everything's triggering. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. Have we just made our kids a bit brittle?
01:08:41
Yeah. I I I think we just have to be honest with them and up front with them. And um life's tough at times, eh? That's
01:08:47
life. Yeah. Sucks. Yep. And I think I I actually think this generation's better
01:08:52
than than we ever were. They're clever. they they um they have a high EQ. Um
01:09:01
they they actually want to contribute. They just actually have to be taught by us the adults. And I actually think the
01:09:07
biggest problem are actually us the adults. The problem in our education system is um the adults are turning
01:09:13
soft, not not the students. And so when the adults are soft, then of course if you're given a an easy option, what are
01:09:20
you going to take? You're going to take the easy option. Of course you are as a
01:09:22
kid cuz you don't expect me to do that. you through co we gave away free credits
01:09:27
and all this sort of nons well they're all like thank you very much you know
01:09:30
I'm I'm hurting so uh and look there's some people who genuinely were hurting
01:09:36
but there are a whole pile who actually were like actually there's a game to be
01:09:39
played here and our education the NCA system at the moment kids are gaming because we put a system in place that
01:09:47
allows them to game so it's actually the adults that are problem not not not the
01:09:51
students yeah well thanks for sharing that Um, we'll move to the Instagram questions now. Eh, yeah, go for it.
01:09:58
Yeah. How are you? You coping all right? You're not too hot. It's good. Yeah. Um,
01:10:03
what's been your proudest moment as a principal? Yeah, that's a good question.
01:10:09
Uh, I actually I'd go there's something a little bit there are a whole pile of
01:10:18
moments where you see boys performing. I just, you know, the latest production, school production, the, you know, the
01:10:24
boys performing on stage, all those things make you like actually pretty pretty proud of what's going on in the
01:10:30
in the place. But perhaps one of the things that I I feel very proud of is through the co um when things were
01:10:40
turning to custard pretty pretty quickly that we carried on um and we um were really adamant that we wanted to give
01:10:49
the boys as much normality as possible. So we ran daily assemblies um via a laptop in my in my house and we and I
01:10:58
dressed every morning for assembly and started with the prayer and did all those sort of things so that there was
01:11:03
like we we're still a community and I'd read them the the the stats for you know
01:11:09
who had been online and which form level was winning in terms of completion of work and um and just I actually felt not
01:11:18
at the time I didn't feel proud of that but by the time we had moved move through co and we were bringing kids
01:11:24
back. Um I felt pretty proud about how well that went and um and how engaged we kept the community.
01:11:34
Yeah, that's really Yeah. When life gives you lemons, make lemon lemonade, right? Yeah. Could you tell how many
01:11:40
kids were on you could tell how many kids were logged on and Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The technology now is phenomenal.
01:11:45
And I could we could tell how many you know indivi so I was actually going on to individual boys um uh so learning
01:11:52
management system I could go on to their individual pages and leave a comment in
01:11:55
their in their chat room and go hey I see you haven't done your homework on blah blah blah so it was quite good that
01:12:01
sort of you know to be able to engage at that level um and there was sort of funny things that happened as well I
01:12:08
remember you having to live stream and and the head of technology was telling me how to you know live stream from my
01:12:14
laptop and He and I remember the first couple he told me how to start up but um I'd forgotten how to finish it and so I
01:12:22
think there the general laughter in the grammar community was when I slam my my laptop shut sort of like well that's
01:12:28
that's the end of that. Oh my god I'm the I'm the same I'm not a boomer but
01:12:32
I've got big boomer energy I can't figure this stuff out. Um someone wants
01:12:36
to know what's yeah what's your toughest moment as a a principal? Have you dealt
01:12:40
with many um like tragic Yeah. teen deaths? Yeah, Palmy Boys in particular. Um, my first year at Palmy Boys, six
01:12:49
students got killed um in different instance in incidences and I still drive if I'm if you're heading through um
01:12:58
towards Hunter, there's still still a farm gate that I drive past where I know, you know, two boys were killed um
01:13:05
trying to cross a railway crossing. It still sends a shiver up my spine as I drive past that on State Highway One. um
01:13:12
they're the toughest moments is is a a student uh being killed or a or a staff
01:13:18
member um being killed or a staff member dying there just because look rocks the
01:13:23
community rocks the and you're helpless there's absolutely nothing you can do
01:13:27
you can be there and you can listen but there's not actually anything you can do
01:13:32
what's the biggest challenge facing New Zealand schools in 2025 uh well we need to actually have an
01:13:40
assessment system that's rigorous ous enough to to stand scrutiny on an international footing. Um, if you look
01:13:46
at all of our OECD rates, they're going down. So, we actually need to be um have
01:13:52
have a have a rigorous assessment system and hopefully Erica Stanford will do something about that. Um, you know,
01:13:57
pretty quickly. Um, and we need to be attracting um quality teachers back into the profession so that um we have
01:14:07
specialists in front of um students. And again, if you go back, boys students know who their good teachers are and who
01:14:15
who aren't. And um the respect comes from them being the expert in the front
01:14:20
of the room. Nothing's going to replace that. You just mentioned um Erica Stanford,
01:14:27
the um education minister. Um, we ruled out politics before, but could you do like some sort of advisory role and and
01:14:35
you know, so you're on the um in that ecosystem, but you're not actually I
01:14:39
don't know whether they'd want me advising them. Yeah. Um, is there a difference between
01:14:46
boys and girls when it comes to education? Ultimately, no. I don't think I think
01:14:53
there are a whole pile of girls who would love to be in an environment like ours. Not just because it's a male
01:14:58
dominant male, you know, a whole pile of boys there, but I think there's a whole
01:15:02
pile of girls who actually there are girls who would actually benefit from and enjoy being part of a structured
01:15:08
environment um where where where um you're getting specialist teaching, there is some fun being had, there's
01:15:14
sport being played, there's music, etc. the struct I think we we have moved too
01:15:19
far as a country to um you know anything goes in education and we're just just a it's just too
01:15:26
loose and I think there are whole there are girls will benefit as much as boys will uh from you know strong standards
01:15:35
environment um from specialist teachers in fact you know the the girls should schools should be beating us they they
01:15:42
should be producing better results than we are And um and while um that and and if if the girls schools actually do move
01:15:52
into a um examination based system like Cambridge then um and they and they have
01:15:58
good quality specialist teachers, they'll they'll thump us every day. What are some of the biggest
01:16:02
misconceptions people have about teenage boys today? Oh, that they don't care. Um they're
01:16:09
lazy. um that they um uh you know there are there is all the the gaming stuff and but remember it's
01:16:17
the adults who've put all that stuff into place. If the adults actually put restraints constraints around that for
01:16:22
them then the boys will respond. Um don't underestimate don't underestimate
01:16:27
boys at all. Um they are astute um astute uh young men who um I think I I actually think our country is going to
01:16:36
be in in great hands with the generations that's coming through. Mhm. Um yeah, it would it sort of concerns me
01:16:45
and I I do get grumpy um some days when members of the general public might go, you know, there's there's grammar
01:16:52
spewing down the street, you know, at 3:15 because they're just flooding, you
01:16:57
know, New Market and sort of Mountain Road and seems because it's just it is a
01:17:02
flood. Um and they then make sort of judgments about the boys. And one of the things you have to keep reminding boys,
01:17:09
they're not not very sort of spatially aware. And so we continually remind them
01:17:15
that like look up and and just move around members of the general public. Um they they will um but we often get, you
01:17:25
know, comments about how rude the boys are because, you know, there's just they
01:17:28
all walk down the foot path um heads down on their phones. Yeah. Heads down. That's your fault. They haven't had
01:17:33
their phone all day. Yeah. notifications to catch up on. But I I mean I Yeah, those there are you can be a grumpy
01:17:41
adult or um you could actually just be happy and if you actually looked at them in the eyes and engaged with them, I
01:17:47
think for 90 99% of them, you're going to get a wonderful response and a smile
01:17:50
back from them. Well, I think if there was 3,000 of any organization like walking through a new
01:17:57
market at any point of day, like it would be like alarming or intimidating or whatever you want to call it. Yeah.
01:18:03
Um, how have the needs, by the way, these these are just questions from Instagram, so if there's no answer for
01:18:09
some of them, you can you can pass. How have the needs of teenage boys changed over your 13 years at grammar?
01:18:15
Have they or are they fundamentally the same? I think don't think the boys needs
01:18:18
have changed. I think um I think they um when when we coach young men and you know basics of sideline behavior or
01:18:33
sporting behavior or they actually soak it up and and um respond and I I just think um there are so many moments I'm
01:18:42
proud of our boys when they're in an independent setting through the we talk
01:18:47
about you know the James Kirst stuff. Um, All Blacks, Lessons of Leadership and Redhead, Bluehead. Great book. And,
01:18:53
um, you know, be bluehead. Like, there are too many people who have biases about the school that their son or
01:19:02
daughter is at. um rather than actually looking up and going they're they're a
01:19:06
teenager and they're at grammar or they're at um you know whatever school
01:19:11
that we just let's just give them a give them a break for where they're at and
01:19:15
look at the their behavior and judge them on their behavior rather than actually our own prejudices. Yeah. What
01:19:21
role does the school play in helping young men navigate mental health, masculinity and identity? Oh, that's a
01:19:26
big question, is it? Yeah, heaps. Um so we we have now a team of student services team um where um so we four
01:19:36
full-time counselors and they are counselors in the um in the we we've turned it into a model maybe five seven
01:19:44
years ago where the counselor is like an American counselor where they're guiding
01:19:48
them on academic stuff but also on head and heart stuff and we moved in that manner because again boys I think men
01:19:58
probably in general were not necessarily good at, you know, asking for help. And
01:20:02
so we've we've put it in a manner where they can readily do so. And so they
01:20:08
might be going in to get some help on um subject pathway or university pathway, but then while they're there with a
01:20:15
counselor and the counselor goes, "Anything else?" You know, um how you
01:20:18
feeling that he could then have the opportunity to go, "Oh, actually, how yeah, mom and dad split up." So, we
01:20:24
provide them the the the context to be able to actually ask in a manner that they don't feel like they're being
01:20:31
they're being weak or um they're being prompted to do so. Mhm. And it works.
01:20:36
Self-referral rate um has increased by 70% um through that time and is held there, you know, really consistently. Um
01:20:43
so, they they they are asking for help and we're we're providing in the best
01:20:48
manner possible. How good. and and the the feedback you get up top is that um a lot of the boys are quite open to Yeah.
01:20:53
talking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are. Yeah. Yeah. And when they know it's confidential and it's not going anywhere
01:20:58
else, that big brother's not watching them in that regard, then Yeah. Absolutely they are. They are. Yeah. I
01:21:03
feel like things have probably changed since you and I were at school, but um back then you you wouldn't show any sort
01:21:08
of weakness or vulnerability because it would just be thrown back at you. Absolutely. Yeah. Um what does the
01:21:14
phrase toxic masculinity mean to you? Yeah. Well, there are there are out there some um models some um Andrew
01:21:22
Tates of this world who are actually presenting the wrong thing to boys. Um and um for us uh we're we're absolutely
01:21:31
coaching boys in the opposite direction about how we go back to who am I and where do I fit in and how do I treat
01:21:39
others, you know, and and particularly how do I treat members of the opposite sex. Um, and so we're quite traditional
01:21:46
in in in those sort of um conversations with boys um and the sort of things we're actually encouraging them to be
01:21:52
like be a gentleman like and you don't just have to be a gentleman um opening
01:21:57
the door for someone else not just for adults um but perhaps for your peers because those things actually end up
01:22:04
sending a message about who you are and your own personal integrity uh rather than actually listening to this this
01:22:10
nonsense um that really dangerous stuff that is online and they are they are living in an online environment. So,
01:22:17
it's just coming at them um thick and fast and um they've already access to
01:22:21
porn pornography and all of that sort of stuff. We're coaching them about the
01:22:25
harmful impact of of pornography, you know, all of those sort of things. There are um we are we are providing them
01:22:31
advice and guidance on is is this classes or is this something that you just drop casually in assemblies or uh
01:22:37
yep, assembly? I'd talk to boys as we're going into Mother's Day. talk to boys
01:22:43
about, you know, having conversations, showing respect to significant females in your lives. Um, just prompting them
01:22:50
because it's not that the majority of boys don't want to be doing those things. It's just actually I've just got
01:22:57
up and this life's tough. I got to wake up first. So, giving them giving them
01:23:02
prompts um and doing it in regular um intervals means that hopefully they it does get locked in. And you can tell in
01:23:10
in an assembly environment when they are listening cuz it's not only silent which
01:23:14
which which I guess it always is. Um but it's still um and um so you actually
01:23:20
know when there is content that they they're going okay we should be you know
01:23:24
taking this in. Yeah. They're engaged. Yeah. Um what do you wish parents understood better about their teenage
01:23:29
sons? Um, I think most parents are probably pretty realistic. The the funny thing that we
01:23:41
we often remind parents that their boys um are not necessarily the same person that they are at home, you know, they
01:23:49
they actually they get, you know, some you got to have a release sometimes. So, the way you actually, you know, you
01:23:56
leave your bedroom, etc., etc., might be very different to the or the way they are in a in a school environment, an
01:24:02
organized environment. And I know, you know, we often will get parents ring us and go, can you tell them to have a
01:24:07
haircut or can you, you know, blah blah blah. Uh, so I I I think most parents are realistic, but they should
01:24:14
understand that um there are different they effectively going into a work environment too where they're largely
01:24:21
pretty impressive. What do you see as the biggest challenge teenage boys face today? online context,
01:24:28
right? Yeah. The they're living in a digital environment and, you know, you think Andrew Tate and toxic masculinity,
01:24:35
those the the content that is just um um prescribed, you know, through social media, that's they're just being
01:24:44
targeted that we really have to be coaching them about how they can actually discard that, how they can get
01:24:50
off their devices um for a good period of the day. And that that's one of the
01:24:54
beauties of, you know, five hour five hour teaching framework in a day where you haven't got a phone. At least, you
01:24:59
know, for that period of time, you're away from a screen, but there are too many that are just addicted to um online
01:25:06
environment. Oh, I've um I'm I'm prepared to put my hand up and say I've
01:25:10
got a terrible addiction to, you know, electronic devices. And I can't imagine
01:25:14
how chaotic I would have been as a teenage boy. Yeah. Um crazy. Actually, there's another book, you may have
01:25:19
already read it, but if not, you'd really enjoy it called The Dose Effect. Oh, I haven't read that. I've heard
01:25:23
about that, but I haven't read it. Dose effect stands for dopamine, oxytocin,
01:25:27
serotonin and endorphins. And just about the impact that devices have and yeah, you know, having device breaks and
01:25:33
things like that. Yeah. Um, how can parents better support the emotional well-being of their sons,
01:25:42
especially during high stress times like exams, breakups, etc.? Oh, listen to them. You know, I think um
01:25:50
being available at the end of the day um just, you know, without again with if we
01:25:56
could put our devices away and you know, as parents, you're living a busy life.
01:26:00
But if you can actually have an agreed time, if you can sit down at the dinner table together and if you can have a
01:26:06
conversation and ask them, you know, what what went well today? um or then you're actually preparing a a a scenario
01:26:13
in a situation where where things haven't gone well that they'll be prepared to share it with you. When
01:26:18
they're not prepared to share it with you, that's when they the the danger
01:26:21
really strikes for for young men is because they'll bottle it up and they'll
01:26:25
think and assume that no one cares when actually they do. So just continuing to be there uh being prepared to listen and
01:26:32
and show you care is is will make a big difference. H are there any red flags that parents should watch out for that
01:26:38
might indicate a teenage boy is struggling but not speaking up. She probably just answered that just you
01:26:43
probably won't be talking. Yeah, they just they won't they and I wouldn't be
01:26:47
afraid to actually contact the school. You like we have parents ringing with saying hey look my son's showing X Y and
01:26:53
Zed. We would always in those situations go look we we'll get a counselor to
01:26:58
touch base with them. It'll just be a an impromptu sort of a thing that I mean
01:27:02
might sort of bump into them in the grounds and and and do a just a little check um because you know you just don't
01:27:08
know what the context is. It could be you know the cyber bullying thing is is a big thing now um where um the in the
01:27:17
good old days if you were getting bullied you you'd at least you could walk home and um you might be away from
01:27:23
it. But if too many of these kids are actually, you know, in their room and have devices, ready access to devices in
01:27:31
their room where actually that can continue, it's dangerous. Yeah. It's Yeah. Yeah. Cuz home was like
01:27:38
a safe haven um when I was growing up and now I'm guessing the the bullying they experience online at home is even
01:27:43
more chaotic than what you'd have potentially in the playground, you know. Well, it can be. Yeah. So they I think
01:27:49
you know good parents are are are just listening to their their their sons and daughters or and talking to them and and
01:27:56
doing so in a in a casual setting. I think one of the the things that I I think if you're ever needing to talk to
01:28:04
your son and and he's not a talker, then take him put him in the car and go for a
01:28:09
drive somewhere. And when you speak when you're sitting shoulderto-shoulder, he's
01:28:13
not having to look at you in the eye. And when he's not looking at the eye, he
01:28:16
can actually talk and and it can become a stream of consciousness. And that's,
01:28:20
you know, that is a really good way to allow him the opportunity to open up. That's a great tip for that one. If you
01:28:26
could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the New Zealand education system, what would it be? Get rid of
01:28:31
NCA. Don't you hate NCAA? Well, NCAA needs to change. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. If you well I would disestablish
01:28:44
the ministry. That'd be the first thing I would do and I' I'd be I'd be finding
01:28:49
key people um across the country who could actually be in a secundered basis where you'd actually go right now let's
01:28:55
have a think tank and let's go through uh with sorting out the curriculum some
01:28:59
of the stuff that um is being led by Erica Stanford and the curriculum is superb and we should we we shouldn't
01:29:05
underestimate how powerful that will be and and you can you can hear the resistance from various um educational
01:29:12
groups and I think that's actually a really good thing because um it means that things are getting a little bit
01:29:17
more rigorous. Um yeah, I would I would uh change NCA. I'd change NCA back to a
01:29:22
norm reference system. I'd put UEIE a university entrance back into the hands
01:29:27
of um universities and ask them to be setting the examinations nationwide and that we'd have this the same system
01:29:35
right across the country. Uh because right now we don't we you can't actually
01:29:39
compare um results across schools in in in our national qualification at the moment.
01:29:45
What keeps you up at night and what gives you hope? Not much keeps me up at night. Um I I I I you know I can I
01:29:52
register my sleep and I check with what my deep sleep is and I'm out cold after
01:29:57
about 2 minutes. Um I I think it's no not I'm not the things that I'm worried about I
01:30:06
would act upon. So, uh, it's just as they stack up, you got to make sure you got
01:30:13
them in priority order so that you keep on top of them. So, I'm not too concerned about, well, I'm concerned
01:30:19
about the state of education, but I can't actually control that. So, if I'm
01:30:22
looking at what the controllables are, the things that are within my control or that I could have some influence on, I'm
01:30:28
trying to have that influence and and prepared to speak up about those things. So, that doesn't bother me. I hand on
01:30:34
heart think I'm doing the best I can, then I'll sleep well at night. M what's
01:30:38
a book that every parent of a teenage boy should read? Belonging. Oh, an eastward belonging. Yeah, no doubt about
01:30:45
it. Um we provided a book to every single staff member. I've provided it to um a lot of our prefects as they come
01:30:52
through. Um if it really does speak to what I think any boy um worldwide would understand is if you have a sense of
01:31:04
belonging, you actually you have a sense of selfworth. And when you got a happy son or when you got a happy boy and you
01:31:12
know if he's got mates and he's and he's happy then um some of the other and
01:31:18
they're good mates um then things are going to take care of themselves. if he's coming from a good home too.
01:31:25
What are some of the some of the buzzwords the kids these days are using? What do you hear on the playground?
01:31:30
I don't listen to what they say on the playground. And I'm not really interested in what
01:31:35
their vocabulary is cuz we're trying to influence their vocabulary rather than
01:31:39
they like they'll say things and I go, I got no idea what you're talking about.
01:31:43
like don't don't talk to me in text speak cuz I still send you know full
01:31:49
sentences and make sure my grammar is correct and my daughter Molly will say to me why why you do you know when you
01:31:57
send that text like that that actually makes you look like you're angry I'm
01:32:01
like how does it make me look like angry just grammatically correct you do not write full sentences so I don't like a
01:32:07
full stop makes you look angry I don't know what it is I've given up trying to
01:32:11
understand what their what their lang languages and um so I I keep saying to them my role is to speak to you in in in
01:32:18
an appropriate language to try and educate you. I don't need to be educated on what your language is. You must
01:32:23
overhear some colorful colorful stuff though when you when you around. Totally. Yeah. What did they when when I
01:32:29
was at when I was at school it was um it was all homophobic slurs. It was you know homo or [ __ ] or whatever. You look
01:32:36
back now and it's it's quite alarming because um during my 5 years at Palmy
01:32:40
Boy High, I don't think there was anyone that was um like openly gay and by percentage there would have been like
01:32:44
you know many many gay boys. Yeah. I think that though this generation are much more inclusive than and and
01:32:53
accepting um of people for their differences um than we ever were. We're terrible. Um and you know when when you
01:33:02
think about the school environment in the 1980s um she's a very different space now. The boys are are very
01:33:08
accepting. We do we do talk to them about homophobic language because you know those sort of terminology to to
01:33:14
degrade um but are are still around. There's no doubt about it. But we continue to speak to them about what the
01:33:23
impact is on and how do you know what someone else is actually thinking. And I I think majority of um majority of
01:33:29
students today actually probably um got a hell of a lot greater sense about you know the diverse nature of society than
01:33:36
we do. Yeah. More empathy. And I I I think a lot of that comes down to potentially
01:33:42
the communication explaining to them like why it's a bad thing rather than just don't don't say it. Um does Oakland
01:33:47
Grammar have a school song? Yeah. Yeah. Are you gonna sing us out for the podcast? It's entirely in Latin. So, no,
01:33:54
I don't think I will. It's funny like I I can still remember like um on Palmer
01:34:00
North Boys High two songs. Yeah. Yeah. Nhon, you know. Yeah. No, Grammarss is um fully in Latin and uh the boys boys
01:34:09
sing it well. Um we sing every week um in a semester. every Friday we we sing and but interestingly enough they would
01:34:17
they would actually prefer to sing like a a wire like kawata or um th those sort
01:34:23
of um those sort of hymns or songs uh and something that's sort of catchy but
01:34:29
they will sing they will sing the school song with a hell of a lot of pride so have can you hold a note are you going
01:34:35
to sing us oh no let me give you this will go this will go viral on the on the school platforms I tell you the there's
01:34:42
probably a a young man somewhere well who was it was Palmy Boys. Um he'd be an
01:34:48
old boy now because in my very first year I reintroduced singing at Palmy Boys because I remember you know Viv
01:34:53
Beaven on the piano you know with his hair going everywhere and and um sort of thumping the piano as we were having to
01:35:00
we were being yelled at to sing. Um but I remember what that made us feel like you were together and um so I said we're
01:35:10
reintroducing singing and after the first day I introduced singing this I was leaving assembly and um this little
01:35:17
fellow comes up to me goes Sarah can I speak to you said yes sure he said I I think it's fantastic that you've
01:35:24
introduced singing it's just fantastic I was like great I bet I got could I give
01:35:29
you some advice yeah sure far say, "Could you step away from the microphone, sir?"
01:35:36
So, you ask anyone, like, "I step away from the microphone because you don't
01:35:40
want to hear me singing." That's savage. How much How much longer have you got in
01:35:43
the role? Have you Have you thought about an exit exit strategy? No, not really. Uh, no. I don't I the only I
01:35:50
still love it. Yeah. No, I think it's a privilege. Um and um I was actually walking through the school grounds after
01:35:58
watching um game of hockey on the on the turf one night. Sort of walking up through the school grounds and it was
01:36:04
lit and I was like going it is it is pretty privileged to to be in the in the position of of headmaster of grammar. Um
01:36:13
the one thing I don't want to do is outstay your welcome. You know I think hopefully I can read the room on that.
01:36:21
Um, and how would you know? Um, I think I'll know. I think I think I'll know when it's time to pass the
01:36:29
baton on. And I I would want to do that earlier rather than later. I don't want
01:36:32
to wait. So, I won't I won't hang around. I'll make sure that that it does
01:36:37
happen early enough so that the school's first rather than, you know, who the
01:36:41
headmaster of the day is. Our our job my job is to be, you know, the guardian of
01:36:46
grammar while I'm in the seat. And if I can, you know, leave the jersey in a
01:36:51
better place using James Kur's uh language, then I've performed my role and hopefully I've prepared some
01:36:57
succession plans so that someone else can come on and take it to another level. And in terms of legacy, how how
01:37:02
would you like to be remembered for the role that you've played in boys education in New Zealand?
01:37:08
Um, I I I would hope well I would hope that I'd be seen as someone who has been
01:37:14
a um an advocate for the standards in New Zealand education and um I I guess someone who has for people
01:37:25
who would know me in the role that I've had a genuine care for for the boys and
01:37:30
for our staff. M I mean if the worst thing someone can says about you is that you're you know you're old school or
01:37:36
you're stuck in the past. I mean it's not bad is it? I don't mind. I don't
01:37:39
mind that. The people people who sort of hurl abuse at me. I love it when you know you're going somewhere and they
01:37:45
hurl abuse at you in a car and it finishes with sir. So like cheers. I'll take that. What's
01:37:53
abuse? Oh you get a few exploitives. you know, largely they're about grammar. You know,
01:38:00
grammar, sir. You just undid all your all your work. Oh, good. Um, and last one. Are you
01:38:08
proud of yourself? I don't really think about that. I don't really think about that. I
01:38:17
haven't really thought about that. Um, I'm proud of I'm proud of grammar. proud of
01:38:25
my family and I guess ultimately it means I'm I'm probably proud of what I'm
01:38:31
doing. I love what I'm doing and um and I can see the impact of having an effective team doing what we're doing
01:38:41
and I we really we need we need a school like grammar in this country. We need it
01:38:47
is while it's an outlier um we need a school like grammar who is going to that
01:38:52
is going to continue to be you know a um I guess belligerent um in the setting of
01:38:59
standards for for boys education. Yeah it's only going to get harder and harder isn't it?
01:39:06
Yeah I think so I think we're in a good position. I I I really think we're in a
01:39:10
really good position and I think there are actually quite there are now across this country quite a number of heads of
01:39:16
boys schools who um you know while in their communities are they're very very
01:39:21
different communities to what the grammar community is you know is a privileged community in the heart of
01:39:26
central Oakland um but I do think that there are a whole pile of schools across the country boy schools across the
01:39:32
country who are working in in unison with with the same values and the same expectations that we've got. Yeah. Hey,
01:39:39
by the way, that last question, um, are you proud of yourself? What, just out of
01:39:43
curiosity, why do you think that's such a hard one to answer? I asked that to
01:39:47
most of my guests, and it's, um, a lot of people are very sheepish about answering um or struggle to answer. Do
01:39:53
you think it's a Kiwi thing? Like it seems boastful if you say you're proud
01:39:55
of yourself or what do you what do you think? Um, perhaps that's in our DNA.
01:40:05
I I I don't know. Oh, I just haven't really I don't think I've ever been
01:40:09
asked that in all fairness dorm and and it's not something I think in this role,
01:40:18
you know, I think I said to, you know, it's a it's a vocation and so you sort
01:40:22
of living this this role. Um, and so you sort of become one with with with grammar. Um, and and my my kids would
01:40:33
probably say that too, even though, you know, two of them are grammar boys. Um, my daughter would say, you know, if you
01:40:39
ever want to talk to dad, you say grammar first and then he listens. Um, and so you sort of become so I I don't
01:40:47
know that we spend much time while I I would reflect on how I could be better cuz I I think there is always room to to
01:40:58
be to be better, I haven't really thought about, are you proud of what you've done. Um,
01:41:04
and I it's almost like that's that's an endpoint conversation to have with
01:41:09
yourself is sort of like if you go if I'm when I'm leaving, would I be proud
01:41:14
of what I've done? Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, eh? Yeah. Maybe that's
01:41:20
um a curse of having like a growth mindset. You just don't allow yourself to sort of stop and reflect on what
01:41:25
you've done when you're mid game. Maybe. I don't know. Tim O' Conor aka Mr.
01:41:31
Okconor aka sir. Um mate, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for coming on
01:41:36
the podcast today. I really appreciate it. Some really cool insights there and it's been wonderful. Yeah. Cheers.
01:41:41
Thanks, Tom.