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[Music] Kiwis love a thirst. Like Finn, we're making [Music] waves. Generate switch online
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[Music] today. Dr. Anika Meredith, welcome to my podcast. Thank you for having me. I am
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so pleased that we made this happen. you you had a um a book out last year called
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On Call, right? And we try we were going back and forth um me and your publisher
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team trying to set up a podcast. Um but I try and do these in person and you were you're in Paris where you live
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these days and now you're back in New Zealand for summer. So we connected. Yes. For for summer, right?
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Your whole life sounds so glamorous. Yeah. Living in Paris, uh riding around on a Vesper with my French husband,
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right? Do do you smoke cigarettes at dinner? No, I must say I'm pretty antismoking and of course this is
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because we is because we of of where we live and what we're surrounded by and
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what we grew up with. But there it's so normal, you know, they are a lot of we've got a lot of friends and at dinner
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they go, "Do you want to have a smoke?" And do you smoke? No. But do you really?
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That's like your final say on it. You don't smoke? No, I don't smoke. So it's
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actually bizarre not to smoke over there. That's Yeah. And the um the French women in particular, they make it
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look very glamorous. Yeah. That's your opinion. That's your opinion. But it's not like
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this is that's thanks to TV and movies and Gucci ads. Yeah. And Emily in Paris,
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the Netflix show. But it's not you see a bunch of New Zealanders at the back of
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say pack and say, Kmart smoking. It's not the same thing. Cat do puffer jackets on. Compare that to like a
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French woman with a a big coat on in the middle of winter. Yeah. Yeah. cafe, a quason, coffee, a cigarette. It's not
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the same buzz. Do you have a little dog and you never pick up the the poo afterwards? I don't have a little dog,
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but there's poo. Oh, I was going to say something else all over our street and
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sometimes I'm not sure if it's humid or if it's or if it's dog. Why is that a
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thing? Um that's I I most recently went to Paris uh last April for the marathon
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with my mom and there's dog [ __ ] everywhere. Everywhere. It's absolutely
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horrible. It's everywhere. And then you you know they walk in the apartments
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with their shoes and the dogs don't get washed like it's they're against washing
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dogs but it is everywhere. I mean you're supposed to be fined for not picking
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your dog [ __ ] up but actually well the reality is no one cares about that ain't
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working. That's right. And so you you live in you you've lived in Paris for
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since co right? Yeah I've lived in Paris officially. I'm now Parisian. I've got
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my residence card etc. But I've had it for like 2 years, but I've been back and
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forth for probably close to 8 years now. And uh we were doing this back and forth
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uh up until CO and through CO, but then after CO it was just too tough. Airports
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were tough, airlines were tough and everything was super expensive. Plus, it is a long journey. Uh you know, I flew
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here what one or two weeks ago. It's 30 hours doortodoor and it gets more exhausting as you get older. It's
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horrible. Yeah. you you and your husband precoid uh doing the commute and you do
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a thing where you meet halfway you meet in Abu Dhabi or Singapore or LA or whatever. It's the most um glamorous yet
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extreme long-distance relationship imaginable and expensive. So expensive, right? Not even mentioning everything.
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Okay. Yeah. Financially, but time and Okay. Well, let's talk about the carbon
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footprint a little later. But yeah, very expensive, but it was fun. Well, it lasted. And uh but then at the end of
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the day, I said, "Look, uh what am I going to do if CO happens again? What side of the world do I want to be stuck
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on? And how do I want to be living my life actually? And where do I want to be living my life?" And it was it's Paris,
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of course. Yeah. So, you've still got three homes. You got um France, um Samoa, and New Zealand. So, Paris for
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life now. Paris for life. Yeah. What about your your son? Your adult son. Where does he live now? He lives in the
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UK. Okay. Yeah. He's going to university in the UK. Brighton. He did a year in
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London and now he's in Brighton. So, we're officially uh UK Europe. Right.
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Hey, it's so good to have you here finally. I know. Um I I am uh typically a slow reader, but I got your book over
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the weekend and I um read pretty much the entire thing from cover to cover. I got so much to ask. Did you cry?
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I I didn't cry, but I I did get emotional in part. What where do you think I would have cried? Um maybe the
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guy with the cucumber. Oh. Oh, the butt stuff. I've actually got a I've actually
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got an entire question card here called downstairs. Um no, no, I don't know. I
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cried at parts about your um family dynamic actually. Nothing to this because the sto the the book on
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call. It's um sort of essay style. lots of stories from you know your job um as
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a surgeon but also um there's some intensely personal and vulnerable stuff there about your family and I found that
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quite upsetting just the I don't I don't know partly I suppose cuz you had big
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walls up and you know you managed to sort of get them anyway we get we'll get
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into we'll get into that first of all um can I ask some like really oh these are
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probably dumb questions but I know nothing about surgery I've been operated on before I think most people in their
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life will probably go into an operating theater but um we're unconscious that's
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Okay. Yeah. So, all all most of us can base anything on is basically what we've
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seen on Grey's Anatomy or whatever the show happens to be or whatever your wound looks like when you come out.
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Yeah. Does it look like Is it a nice wound? Nice and clean. You had a good surgery. So, um do you remember your
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first surgery? Uh well, there's different types of surgery, but yeah, I do. I do remember
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the the where I was allowed to operate independently and alone. Yeah. And uh it's bloody frightening, you know.
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And actually, well, my son and I had an argument one day because I said, "Well,
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I was operating on people when I was 25, 26 independently." And he said, "Uh,
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well, that's effed, isn't it? Don't you think?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, if I
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think of the 25, 26 year olds that I know, yeah, there's a there's something
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wrong with it." But you know what? This is this was what we were trained to do.
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M but I I can't imagine a more frightening sort of first solo day on the job. You know what I mean? Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean there's a lot on the line, you know. You've got to know your
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limits. You've got to know that there's backup. But yeah, it's it it's
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frightening. And everybody's looking at you. The anetist is looking at you and
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rolling his or her eyes maybe because you're taking a little longer than you
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should. And the nurses are looking at you and they know that you're, you know,
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there's something the tension. Yeah. The tension. And you have to there's
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something like you have to pretend to be confident but not so confident that you
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f it up or you forget to call for help when you need to call for help. And probably the biggest the biggest thing
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that you can get wrong is not knowing when to call for help. Uh is that is that a like a pride thing or an ego
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thing? Yeah, I think it's an ego thing and and sometimes people don't know
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their limits. You know, there are people who um say look I I'll see one I'll see
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one and then I'll do one. And there's this thing we say which is say see see
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one do one teach one. Okay I don't condone it but sometimes sometimes we do it but there are people who will say
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I'll see one and then I can do it. I'll do it. And there are other people who
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say I saw one then I want to do one partly with somebody and then do a little bit more then do a little bit
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more and then then do it. And uh you know I've spoken before about the differences in female and male trainees
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and male trainees tend to be the former. I see one I can do one. And I'm not
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going to say they're all like that, okay? I won't totally generalize, but I
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know that I'm not too far from the truth. You know, there are more males than females training and surgery. So, I
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mean, I admire the confidence, but also like I prefer a little bit of apprehension in my surgeon. Yeah,
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exactly. Yeah. Um, so what's it like in theater? Is is there is there is there
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do you have a UEI boom? Is there music playing? Is there laughter? There's music. There's music. I'm I like to
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operate with music and one time The surgeon gets to decide what the surgeon usually gets to decide unless you don't
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have Spotify but uh I remember one time I was playing my music and the patient came in and I had on the on the boom box
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um Credence Clear Water Revival as long as I can see the light and the anesist came to me and said turn that off. Yeah.
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So sometimes there's a bit of friction about music choices and volume, but it
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is a surgeon's preference. Um I'm I'm I love music. Um it depends a lot on the
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operation and what's happening. I mean there's a big difference between what
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it's like when a trauma comes through the door. Category one, somebody's you
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has to be in there within 30 minutes or they're going to die and uh obviously
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something more elective, something simple like a hernia or you know, I mean that's basically an
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elective list. things are a bit more chilled. And and do you have your phone in there with you or the phones? You do?
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Yeah. Yeah. We have our phones in there with us and different hospitals have different uh uh rules around, you know,
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whether the phone is allowed to ring. We have the nurses who answer the phones for us. I mean, it's a little annoying
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sometimes for them a lot, but uh yeah, we do have phones there. Oh, so you look at the screen and if it's um some
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something that's potentially important, you right. Okay. Okay. Well, if it's my
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son calling from London, I I ask him to pick it up and ask him immediately, is it an emergency or not an emergency? Not
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an emergency. Okay, fine. I'll call you back later. He knows what it means. What
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about coffee and snacks and things? If it's a long If it's a long coffee and
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snacks always in between cases, sometimes when you know when we were doing really long cases, okay, fine. You
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can have surgeries that last up to 10 hours, 13 hours. You have to have a break or you're turning a patient.
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Sometimes when I'm doing breast reconstruction, we have to turn and reposition them. And uh in between those
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breaks, we'll always have coffee or cheese on toast or water or a toilet break. We're only human. Do you not lose
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your appetite, though? Yeah. I mean, it's not the first thing that comes to mind, actually. It's mostly water. I
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need water. I need to breathe. I need to go to the toilet. Yeah. Often you're not
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thinking about what you're going to have for lunch. What What is the longest time
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you've had in theater on one operation? Uh god. uh like 13 14 hours, but that
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was years ago and I didn't specialize in that. And um the la last one in the set
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of dumb questions. Well, actually probably not. There's bound to be more. Um what's the temperature like in
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theater? Is it ah okay well it's up to you. I like it to be a bit cool. I like
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it to be 20.5° but specific. No, but uh when we're doing neonatal surgery, so
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newborns, the theaters are hot. They're 35 36° and uh we've got the nurses sponging
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us down with a cold flannel. Cold flannels in the over the back of your neck. So, it's a bit variable. Wow. Has
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a patient ever woken up? I think that's not to my knowledge. No. Is that more the aniththetist job? Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cuz that's everyone's worst fear, right? As a patient. I think
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so. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. That Yeah. Waking up during surgery and waking up after surgery. Will I wake up? Um, have
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you ever sewn a patient up then realize you've left like a utensil or something
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in them? No, we've got um we have to have counts in the beginning and at the
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end. And if something is is not something is a miss, the counts don't match, then we do X-ray or reopen. So, a
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patient should not theoretically ever leave the Yeah. Someone wanted wanted me to ask you um do do surgeons, maybe not
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you specifically, but maybe this goes back to some of the the dudes you were talking about before. Do a lot of
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students have like an ego or a god complex? Hell yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough because I mean they're
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all type A personalities and everyone thinks they're pretty special. Of course. I mean you were top in your
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class wherever in school top you know you you competed to get into med school and it was only whatever in New Zealand
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100 150 per year. So you kind of gone through your whole life where you are cream of the crop and and you know every
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specialty thinks they're pretty awesome. Orthopedics think they're amazing.
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General surgery think they're amazing. Cardiothoracics think they're gods.
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Neurosurgeons think so everybody thinks they're they're awesome. So of course
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that it's tense in theaters and uh when you're fighting for cases who's more
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important. No, my patient's more sick. My patient more sick. So this is such
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such an interesting insight. Yeah. It must have been um yeah a hell of a journey for you because not only are you
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a woman which I suppose immediately puts puts you in a bit of a minority in this
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group but a moan woman as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, good for you. Thank you. That's incredible. Um, what
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about the money? Is this is is does the money end up being great? Does I mean to
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be lucky? Yeah, we're lucky in New Zealand. It's great. We're paid very
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very well. We've got great uh work life balance. Amazing. Amazing. Uh now I'm
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living in France and it's not the same at all. Uh you know, uh GPS in France
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get paid €25 an hour. That's €50 an hour. 50 New Zealand dollars an hour. and in this country uh you know that's
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we're making five t times more. So you know we're pretty lucky. So um in your
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book on call um the book starts and in the first five pages we have um a teenage boy that you're operating on. Um
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actually there's two teenage boys and they've been involved in a high-speed
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police chase and they come in and then um one of them dies on you on the operating table. This is all in the
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first five pages. And then um later on in the book, there's a a 2-year-old girl
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that um you dies um on the operating table as well, and you have to uh sew her up before returning her to the
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parents. They can have like one um sort of final like goodbye cuddle. Yeah. How do you how do you deal with such
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like unimaginable grief? Well, I think the problem is that we don't, you know, uh, okay, we're not
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even talking about the parental grief and the family grief, but as a surgeon and I remember those cases very very
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well. um we don't and we're not taught to we're expected to just pick up and
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continue because the next day there are booked theater lists and there are book clinics and there there's call and uh
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and so we're not taught to process that grief really you know you kind of and
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for me I realized that I was burning out or or exhausted because actually I just
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you know you lose compassion you you're tired patients are not happy you don't
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care anymore you know and So there's something that's missing in our medical
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training. And I know, you know, a couple of people have tried to change the system a little to have buddying or, you
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know, counseling. And the old school doesn't accept that so much. You know, they they're all of the mindset that it
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was a right of passage that they did it that they did it harder that they did harder on call. Okay, fine. Well, kudos
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to you. But times have changed and uh and and people don't want to work that
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way anymore. People want to be healthy. people want to, you know, have good relationships, be parents, be husbands,
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wives. And I think just the mindset that you have to fight and and you feel insulated because nobody can possibly
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understand what you're going through means that your the relationships around
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you suffer. So So stitching up like a a deceased 2-year-old um and you're crying when
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you're doing this. Um yeah, how do you decompress after that? What what happens? So you go you
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are you dismissed from your shift immediately? Yeah. Yeah. So if it's Yeah. I mean you're dismissed from your
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No, not necessarily. Sorry. You're not necessarily dismissed. If you've had a catastrophic outcome
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which was not expected, then as a colleague I would say to a colleague and I've I've been in the situation before
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where you say, "Listen, uh, drop all your tools. I'm going to take care of this and you go home and
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I'm going to come and see you later. I'm going to, you know, bring you dinner.
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Just don't worry about anything. I'm going to take care of it." But as a a
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system level, you know, what happens process, etc. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. you really have to rely
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on your your colleagues who are going to be there for you actually. And of course, that's that's variable. It
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depends on the colleagues that you have. And fortunately, I've had I've had good
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colleagues. I've had bad colleagues, but uh actually most of the time, you know,
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I've been around good people. But how can you how can you compartmentalize something like that and move like you
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you can't go to a friend's barbecue that night, can you? No. God, no. Hell no.
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You can't because actually well am I supposed to be feeling happy or am I supposed to be laughing at your jokes
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which today I feel like they're pretty stupid. I just there was just a 2-year-old girl that died on the table
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and her parents are suffering and so this is what you kind of carry and it's
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not right because I went through this and you know my son even his you know his problems you I got called one day
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because he fell off the bar and hurt his back and uh the teacher called said can
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you come pick him up and I said well can he walk and they and the teacher said yeah and I'm like well okay fine he can
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walk cuz actually what I'm dealing with is is worse and that's terrible Actually, it's terrible to to to compare
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the rest of your life to what you're dealing with. The worst case scenario. It's pretty I feel bad for him and this
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is what he lived through all his life. But yeah, is it a matter of life and defeat? Is that a threshold? Exactly.
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Can he walk? Uh then give him a panadol and send him back. Not even Tramies. Okay. Um there was another story in your
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case. Um then you we don't need to say the patient's name but you it's a very
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highprofile New Zealand offender and you can sort of join the dots and work out um who it is. Particularly nasty nasty
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piece of work. So um this guy comes in with um after being shot on the leg by the police and you have to amputate his
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leg and he's um yeah describe that scenario. So he's he's chained to the
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bed. So he's chained to the bed, but often when we have um patients come from the prison,
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they're chained to the bed. But he was chained to the bed uh throughout meanl
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looking so super big uh frightening and actually it was my I was very junior. I'd never done vascular before and this
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is one of those scenarios that you're talking about, you know, your f one of
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your first operations. And and um I'd been called to say there was a gunshot.
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We don't deal with gun gunshots in New Zealand. [ __ ] I didn't like I don't
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even know what to do with the gunshot. I have no idea. It gone through a major blood vessel in his leg. So he landed.
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The hospital was shut down. Cops everywhere. He's chained to the bed. Cops in the in the operating theater as
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well. Yeah. Just outside the operating theaters guarding the hospital. No one was allowed in or out. Everything was on
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on lockdown. And um and so we take him to theater the first time and uh you know okay fine his major blood vessel
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had been damaged. So he had what we call a bypass bypass procedure where you're
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you're creating another passage from the good part over you know bypassing the
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damaged part to the to the end of the leg and it didn't work the first time and I say in the book you know
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maybe if he'd been somebody different and I don't know the answer to this but
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maybe we would have tried harder to save his leg but as it turned out the leg was
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dead and uh I was the one that amputated it. Having never amputated before, having never seen it before, the
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consultant surgeon said, "Listen, just get on and and amputate." And sometimes
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you can say, "Well, I've never done it before." Uh, can you come in? And he
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will or she will. And sometimes you say, "I've never done it before." And he'll
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say, "Well, you know, just put a ton around it and cut it off, you know." So
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this is the case. I never done it before. And it was huge. It was enormous. Um but yeah so and you so he
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was awake through part of the procedure. No he was asleep. Oh okay. Asleep for the amputation but he was he was awake
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early on cuz you describe him as sort of learing. Yeah. Sounds like he's a psychopath. Yeah. Yeah. The way he looks
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at you, the way he the way he I mean he you he looks evil for want of a better word. How old were you at the time? Ah
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20s. This is what my son's talking about. That's F, isn't it? I was 20s.
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Maybe 26, 27. It's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Like, can you imagine? I can think
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of many 26, 27 year olds who would never have to go through that. Good. That's
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great. But what we're expected to deal with at such a young age and really just
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to hit the ground running and sometimes we say, you know, don't be afraid to
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cope. Well, I've said it to my juniors. Look, just don't be afraid to cope. And
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uh that's what you have to do. Yeah. No, that's that's part of the reason why I
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asked about the you the rather personal money question before because um yeah, you guys do deserve to be comp
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compensated really well. First of all, you you know, you're all very intelligent and smart. Um and those um
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smarts could be you placed in any other sort of sector and you're probably in
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way more money. Um but also the like I don't I don't know if it's danger money,
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but just the things that you see and the things that you do. I mean you know it's
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an essential part of society. Absolutely. There's a huge need and uh you know you see it the the general
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practitioners we're short on the ground surgeons we're short on the ground and
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and you're right there has to be some recompense uh some sort of incentivization and well money uh money
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helps everybody needs money. Absolutely. You can buy buy nicer nicer um soap like
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when you're soaping yourself down after a hard day dealing with um death and
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tragedy. Um, so what sort of relationship do you have with the patients? Obviously, if
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someone comes in and it's an emergency situation like the boys in the highspeed
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car chase, you have no pre-existing relationship with them, but generally like do you do you meet with the patient
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before you operate on them and you meet with them afterwards and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, if I if I look at my
00:22:05
breast cancer work then Yeah. I mean cancer is totally different cuz obviously it's a very emotional very
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very emotional moment for for the patient and and you know they have a real sense of mort of mortality you know
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you can die from cancer so the relationship's obviously very different there's a there is some dependence and
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actually they're relying on us to for cure and for best possible treatment and
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to live the rest of their life healthily cancer-free. uh that's not always possible and uh but the relationship is
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very special for cancer. It's it's a tough relationship because of course uh
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you know some we you know sometimes we say the disease has the cuts we can't we
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can't control the outcome and and the disease will do what it does. Um so yeah
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generally with breast cancer work or any cancer work you meet with the patient um
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one time two times three times depending on how complex the operation is. You know is it going to be a straightforward
00:23:03
in and out in one day and they're going to be fine or is there a real risk of
00:23:07
death or deformity or losing something? Um and then you know you would tailor it
00:23:14
according to how well people respond to you know information. Do they understand
00:23:20
it? Are they happy? Are they not happy? do they need more? Um, do they need some
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to come back with family? So, there's a lot of tailoring. Uh, and you know, a
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lot of being a surgeon is being emotionally intelligent and knowing that cuz if outcomes don't work out the way
00:23:34
you plan, you know, well, then that can be devastating. Yeah. How do you tell someone they've
00:23:43
got like a a terminal illness? Does it does it did you get better at it? Um, does it get easier? It doesn't get
00:23:50
easier. I think it gets harder because you know what that means and uh for you for them as a patient but also for them
00:23:58
as a member of a family and a wider group. You know now I'm I'm a mother you
00:24:04
know what it means for for a child you know my own mother was sick. So you you understand more acutely the impact on
00:24:10
the family and it destroys families you know to when the outcome's not good it
00:24:16
destroys families. Uh, and you have to be a bloody good, bloody strong family to get through through
00:24:23
this. So, did I get better at it? I don't know. But I certainly became more emotionally intelligent. I think I
00:24:32
certainly became more empathic. Um, and uh, but it's still hard. I mean, it's
00:24:39
it's bloody hard. And it's it's horrible when they come into hospital. And I talk
00:24:44
about this in the book, you know, playing golf one day and it happens not infrequently. Playing golf one day or
00:24:50
out for a run, a little bit of pain, not quite right for a week, come to hospital, scan, riddled with disease.
00:24:58
You know, life's never going to be the same. and well maybe there's something
00:25:02
wonderful in that because because we know what a long protracted illness can look like you
00:25:08
know and and if there was if we could choose a way to go maybe personally I would I would choose something like that
00:25:15
you know something that was short and I'm well one moment and you know then I
00:25:19
I know that it's two weeks and I can do what I want with my life. Is that a component in in med school like they
00:25:25
teach you communication or how to Yes. Yes. But it's very um it's very false.
00:25:30
It's sort of okay, here's your actor breaking back. But you're 23 years old.
00:25:36
You actually have have zero emotional intelligence. You're a bit of an [ __ ] You know, you're drinking most
00:25:42
nights. You think it's funny. You think the actor is stupid. Uh you know, so
00:25:47
yeah, there's a little bit. Uh it's really tick the box, but you have to,
00:25:52
you know, I don't know that you can teach compassion. M um some people you just have to get better at it over time.
00:26:01
So um I mean death is is just one of the outcomes but it's um I what would the
00:26:07
percentage be of patients that you operate on that um have a negative outcome? I mean it's variable depending
00:26:12
on how they present but it can be well if a woman's having a breast cancer operation I expect it to be close to
00:26:17
zero and obviously if somebody comes into hospital really really unwell it can be anything from 20 to 80% or 100. M
00:26:24
you know sometimes we say well look you're going to die whether we operate on you or not
00:26:30
and some people say well I want the chance if you know if there's a 5% chance uh I want that chance. Uh so yeah
00:26:39
it's very well you one thing which um probably naively I never really thought
00:26:42
about or considered um until reading your book over the weekend on call is um just the amount of scrutiny you're under
00:26:49
like you you you were investigated a couple of times right? So if there's a negative outcome and yeah under what
00:26:55
circumstances are you investigated? Well uh if uh well for any death in the hospital really well any postoperative
00:27:02
death so if you operate on somebody and they die and this is this is I mean it's
00:27:07
right um you know you there's an investigation it has to be reported to the coroner and then the coroner will
00:27:13
you explain the circumstances the coroner will say well okay fine that's uh she was 95 years old uh it was uh it
00:27:22
sounds like it was it was going to end poorly there's no no suspicious outcome
00:27:27
come here and uh that's done. And then of course if it's somebody who's young
00:27:31
and uh in the book of course they're young um then then there's a wider investigation which is the right thing
00:27:39
to do. I mean, if a death is preventable, how can we what can we do better to stop this from happening
00:27:45
again? And it does happen, of course, cuz we're all human. Everything, we're
00:27:49
all human from, you know, nursing staff, uh, emergency do doctors, surgeons, anesthetists. So,
00:27:56
still a lot of stress for you guys. Like, I mean, it's horrible. It's a massive amount of Yeah. Like Yeah. Every
00:28:02
time you go into that operating room, like this is like a like a an axe that's
00:28:05
looming over your head in a way. Yeah. every time you're on call, every time
00:28:08
you see a patient. Every time you see a patient um you know I uh one of the stories in the book was and I I was
00:28:15
recounting this last week. I can't remember quite why but there was a elderly man who came into hospital 85
00:28:21
years old I think he was came in with abdominal pain and um really looked very well and I scanned him investigated him
00:28:29
uh you know probably overcanned him because he was elderly and lived alone but there was nothing to find zero and
00:28:37
finally I decided he could go home cuz I couldn't find anything although he still
00:28:41
he said he still had pain and uh then the week after I get a letter from the HDC saying he's been found dead at home.
00:28:50
Recount everything that happened in the hospital. Recount everything that you did. And I, you know, I went to my
00:28:56
friends and colleagues, actually, colleagues and friends, and said, "Jesus Christ, look what's happened. What did I
00:29:00
do wrong?" And they said, "Well, the only thing is you overcame him. It
00:29:02
sounds like everything was normal." And you and you sent him home. And then I
00:29:07
finally got the reason for his death and he'd committed suicide at home. So every time you see a patient actually
00:29:14
uh you know there's a risk. Yeah. Yeah. And that that part of the book I love
00:29:20
how that was written. Um I think your phrasing was something like he died of suicide or and then you sort of correct
00:29:24
yourself and say more specifically loneliness which is [ __ ] sad. It's [ __ ] sad. So he kind of wanted to be
00:29:29
in hospital. Yeah. It was his and you see that a lot. We do see that a lot actually in the medical wards. Elderly
00:29:36
people especially in the winter. Well, okay fine. They're they've got respiratory illnesses, but they're
00:29:40
lonely. And uh actually uh somebody said to me before Christmas actually, you know, it's you have a lot of people in
00:29:46
hospital because it's Christmas and they don't have family. So yeah. What impact does all all this
00:29:52
have on your mental health? Uh it's uh tough. I mean, you know, I I'm happy to be
00:30:03
winding down. I'm happy to be leaving it. I'm really happy to be leaving it. I
00:30:07
uh loved it and I love it. You know, there's really uh there's so much reward
00:30:12
and uh and the people that you're working with who have the same values as you and we're all working to do better
00:30:19
and help people. But we're really working in an environment that's resource poor
00:30:26
increasingly with increasing expectation both from the institution and from patients because everyone wants
00:30:34
to live forever and there's not enough resource anymore. Uh you know you know
00:30:40
you have 90 year olds who come to hospital with a cancer and say why me? Well, you know,
00:30:46
unfortunately, most people die of cancer, and you got to 90 and that's amazing. And, you know, there's a
00:30:51
20-year-old in the room next door who's thinking the same thing. I have cancer.
00:30:55
Why me? Um, so, of course, there's a societal expectation. I want more. I do
00:31:00
more for me. I want to live forever. I want to be well. And, uh, all that I think is tough.
00:31:07
there's increas an increasing amount of pressure on on medical staff to do more
00:31:12
with better outcomes but with less. Um so something's got to give, doesn't it?
00:31:18
Yeah, something's got to give and and this is why uh I mean this is when things go wrong actually. Uh you know,
00:31:25
you're trying to do multiple things at once and uh you're tired and you're
00:31:30
you're making little compromises. Be it a nurse in theater, be it, you know, you
00:31:36
know, we have to send patients home because there's no beds. Okay. Well, I would not ordinarily send this man home,
00:31:41
but there's somebody who's more sick who needs that bed. And you're constantly
00:31:45
making those sorts of decisions. But in terms of um like prioritizing or you ring fencing your own mental health,
00:31:50
like how did you have therapy through this time? Did you journal? Did you have like a support group with other surgeons
00:31:56
or um I run a lot. So for me um exercise and running is huge for my own mental health and the book was part of it.
00:32:06
Actually the book initially was not a book. It was cathartic. You know the the the boys that come in in the very first
00:32:13
five pages you spoke about who land on your table. You know nothing about them but you're you know your hands are in
00:32:20
their abdomen. They're dying on the table. They die on the table and you know nothing of them. They just came.
00:32:26
They passed through and then you go to bed. You lie in your sheets, they're clean, you feel good, you wake up, you
00:32:30
have a coffee. I felt really I felt that kind of disconnect. It was really hard to reconcile. And uh this is where I
00:32:38
started writing, just kind of writing about people, what they do, where they come from, what his name was, etc., etc.
00:32:46
And uh so this is where all the patient stories came from. And they sad stories,
00:32:50
funny stories, horrible stories, good stories. And uh when I had enough words, I gave it to an agent and the publisher,
00:32:58
the editor at Harper Collins picked it up and she said, "Look, this is amazing,
00:33:02
but I want to know more about you because at the end of this the day, you know, and I cried reading this book, but
00:33:08
when the [ __ ] like how did this woman come to be? How does she get through all
00:33:12
this [ __ ] in the day?" So, this is how the book came to be. So, to answer your
00:33:16
question, but in a long rounded longwinded way, actually chronicling is huge for me. I I express better in
00:33:22
writing and uh yeah I mean you have friends uh in uh in you know colleagues who you talk to who you bounce ideas off
00:33:32
who say [ __ ] listen I did this do you think that was right to do what should I
00:33:36
do what can I do better um but it's a multi- you know multiffactorial kind of
00:33:43
contribution to mental wellness but probably there should be more therapy and I can think of many times where
00:33:49
young you know we're young when we're dealing with death, uh, death on the
00:33:52
table, things that you've done wrong that have contributed to death. I mean,
00:33:56
we're late 20s, early 30s. We're consultants by the time before 35. What
00:34:01
kind of normal people I I mean, I'm sure in the police force, you're expected to
00:34:05
have some form of counseling if you are involved in a in a civilian death, I'm
00:34:10
sure. Um, but we're kind of expected to just go on and the, you know, the institution runs on a very fine
00:34:17
precipice and no, you can't cancel your clinics. Yeah, there's that saying that
00:34:21
people have in most lines of work. It's like, well, listen, we're not saving
00:34:24
lives. You guys kind of are, even though you actually are. Um, and the family, the personal stuff that you're talking
00:34:31
about, which ended up into the book. Um, and from what I can gather, uh, this sounds like it was quite hard for you
00:34:37
because you're quite a private person. Yeah. Um, so not prone to oversharing.
00:34:42
Uh, we'll get to that, but first of all, I've got my card called downstairs.
00:34:46
Okay. Is this from people that pick up your book? Is this the the most common questions they have? Like
00:34:55
do you know what? It depends on the gender of the person asking the question. Really? Is it more more guys
00:35:01
that are intrigued? Yeah. Um this this made me um I'm I'm thankful that I've
00:35:07
never had to go to hospital with something um stuck on my You don't have to share. I mean Yeah. But guy dudes are
00:35:12
weird, are you? Yeah, dudes are weird. Dudes are weird. I love us. I'm like,
00:35:18
I'm pro guys, but [ __ ] we're weird. Okay, by the way, this is the first book
00:35:22
um I've read that has this sentence in it. I developed a passion for four skins
00:35:26
and prostates. Yeah. Were you chuckling to yourself when you typed that sentence out? Yeah.
00:35:34
I mean, it just like it comes to me. I'm like, that's funny. That's a good idea.
00:35:39
Sometimes people say because actually my the title of my book initially when I sent it into Harper Collins was from
00:35:48
masturbation to death, you know, illustrative of the breadth of things that we see and they're like, you know,
00:35:55
Anica, it's not going to work. I know you think it's funny, but uh I think
00:36:00
you're not going to get the readers that you want. And then I said I told a friend, a male friend, Argentinian, and
00:36:05
I said, "This is what I think the book, the name of the book should be." He
00:36:08
goes, he said, "I would pick that up in an instant." And I said, "Well,
00:36:11
actually, then it's the wrong title." Oh, yeah. On call is a great, it's a
00:36:16
great name for it, and it's a it's a fantastic book. Um, yeah. So, there's
00:36:20
like butt staff, penis, just basically insertions. So, um, yeah, the butt stuff. Some dude with concrete. Ah, yes.
00:36:30
A dude with concrete. So, uh, he, uh, had prolapse actually. So his rectum was falling out of his well or so he thought
00:36:39
and uh being you know a good old practical New Zealand bloke from the middle of New
00:36:46
Zealand. I mean what are you going to think if wolves are falling over or if wolves are weak? What are you going to
00:36:52
do? You're going to reinforce it. Not if it's the the hole that's required for
00:36:58
pooping though. Well, it's funny. There's a there's a saying to every for
00:37:02
every uh for a man with a hammer, everything is a nail and he was builder. So he works concrete. Um there's also um
00:37:12
like a uh the urethra. That's the the hole in the penis. Yes. Um someone that
00:37:17
stuck a toothbrush down there. Yeah. Bristle bristle in first. Bristle end first. That's Well, well, I couldn't
00:37:24
even get a cotton cotton earbud down Okay. I don't want to know what I haven't tried, but I'm just No, but it
00:37:29
but and that's not the worst thing. I mean, I've seen razor blades, but yeah,
00:37:32
you're right. I mean, it's years of practice, right? It's not like you do it
00:37:38
the first time. You're you're going to start to insert maybe the toothbrush
00:37:41
with the handle first. Or maybe a cotton. I mean, everybody Yeah, that's Wait, I'm
00:37:48
overthinking this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're the one that said cotton.
00:37:51
I'm like, okay, fine. Maybe that's another um and with someone with a light
00:37:54
bulb in their bub. Yeah, I mean there that that's pretty common actually. But
00:37:59
yeah, I mean what do you mean common? What do you mean? It's not that it's not
00:38:03
common. You've seen it more than once. Yeah, that's right. And it's not in it's
00:38:07
not infrequent. And God, you know, you've probably crossed them on the street.
00:38:12
But does does it break up there? No. No. But it's like but uh I mean don't ask me
00:38:18
the technicalities of them doing it because uh we don't ask and they don't
00:38:22
tell actually and and actually they do not tell because when you ask them it's
00:38:27
always the same it's always the same story. Well I was walking naked down the
00:38:32
stairs in the show in the shower and there was a cucumber at the bottom of the stairs or Barbie was standing at the
00:38:39
bottom of the stairs but nobody ever says really has there been a Barbie. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But that's not
00:38:47
the most technically challenging object to get up there. But nobody ever says, you know, I wanted to I was having fun
00:38:54
with my mates or, you know, my girlfriend and I we were, you know, being intimate. Actually, they're all
00:39:00
minding their own business walking down the stairs. So that's it. Absolutely.
00:39:05
100%. I can't think of anybody that has told me otherwise. And how how do you
00:39:09
guys go? There is one uh the guy with drugs who was uh evading the police. Well, we're not there to judge actually.
00:39:17
So yeah. So yeah, a guy's about to be raided. So he's got some uh liquid
00:39:23
ecstasy from memory and he puts it in like a big jar. That's right. He puts the big jar up there and it's a small
00:39:28
quantity of drugs. It's a tiny tiny quantity of drugs. I mean like a do jar or like Yeah.
00:39:38
like maybe slightly wider and shorter. A dolio jar might have been better because
00:39:43
at least maybe you could get a handle on it, but it was like just cylindrical. Uh but and the cops were
00:39:49
waiting. They're standing outside waiting for this poor guy. Oh, shame. It's just a shame. So, how how do you
00:39:57
guys how do you guys play play it when one of these um patients presents itself? I cuz I think if it was me just
00:40:02
projecting, if I'm in that situation, I'd probably be like, "Look, I got to be
00:40:05
honest with you. I was, you know, curious about butt stuff and this got stuck up there and and you'd own it. Did
00:40:11
everybody hear that? If Don comes to hospital and says you was walking down his stairs,
00:40:17
he's lying. I think but I think you're not fooling anyone like no one's buying
00:40:21
the story. No, but they're ashamed. They're embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah. Like
00:40:26
absolute mortification. And you you treat them with um just near dignity and a straight face. Yeah. Totally. will
00:40:31
listen, we've got to put you to sleep and uh and get it out and very very occasionally we need to open you up. Um
00:40:37
but that's pretty rare. Oh yeah, and there was the like the guy that had raided the salad drawer.
00:40:44
Not not not one piece of produce. That's right. That's right. In fact, and he
00:40:47
said that somebody else put it up there in a party. He was something like when I went to
00:40:53
sleep, they were in the veggie bin and I woke up with stomach pain and they're
00:40:56
not there anymore. Yeah, that's right. So he came in and said, "There are
00:41:01
vegetables missing." Okay. And so are they there or I don't know. Someone may
00:41:07
have eaten them or they're in my bag. Yeah. Exactly. I don't know. It's 50/50.
00:41:12
Um what about the fish hooks guy? The guy swallowing fish hooks. Yeah. And again, that's another that's like a guy
00:41:18
who's lonely, right? I mean, uh they want to come to hospital. This was a guy
00:41:22
who'd been sw who said he'd been swallowing fish hooks. X-ray him every day. He's got fish hooks sitting in his
00:41:29
guts on on on plane x-ray. Every day we're watching it move. It's moving a
00:41:34
little bit funny, but we don't question it. And then there's no more fish hooks
00:41:39
left cuz we watch it until like it it moves out till he's he's put it all out
00:41:43
basically. And he comes back in 24 hours later and and we get another X-ray because he says he swallowed more fish
00:41:49
hooks and they find that he's been um taping the fish hooks to to his back and
00:41:56
the conventional X-ray is just two dimensional so it looks like Oh, so he's getting X-rayed with a shirt on. Oh,
00:42:02
okay. Oh, that's very sad. Well, yeah, it is sad. Yeah. And you put him forward
00:42:07
for psychological evaluation psychiatrist on call. Um Oh, and last one. The the lady finally a lady. A lady
00:42:15
in the segment. Remind me. It might have been an error. Yeah, the lady with um the like the the skin tag. Ah yes, like
00:42:22
a bit of extra skin on the like a little bit of extra skin. Highend escort. So tiny tiny almost not
00:42:31
noticeable at all. Could be, you know, you or me. Mhm. And uh and it's just she
00:42:38
says it's disrupting her um her work, her income, but actually and I'm going
00:42:44
to go back to JJ who at the beginning of the show sees something and that's normal, right? We this woman saw only
00:42:52
her anal tag and we see it a lot in cosmetic surgery or after reconstruction. There's like a tiny tiny
00:42:58
tiny little imperfection but it's all that you see and it just gets exaggerated and exaggerated to the point
00:43:03
that actually you just can't deal with it. And that's uh that's human nature I
00:43:07
suppose. Yeah. Cosmetic specialists must see that a lot, right? Yeah. Like what?
00:43:11
Yeah. Like people with their their nose or whatever or whatever it happens to be. Yeah. Absolutely. Just this kind of
00:43:17
dysmorphia just for self. I am I am weird about my nipples though. Are they weird nipples? Like that
00:43:27
they're strangely sort of protruding, aren't they? Well, I mean you could have
00:43:32
a nipple reduction if you wanted. I'm self-conscious about it, but not enough to get a a reduction or anything.
00:43:40
Um, so um you you're back in New Zealand um and you are doing some work uh in the
00:43:46
surgery field. Um but it's not your main sort of bread and butter now. What was
00:43:50
how was the decision process to stop working as a full-time surgeon? Was it was it a moment or was it a long
00:43:57
slow sort of process? It was a long slow process. There's a there's a um well, I think I always knew I could I
00:44:07
could live not being a surgeon. For some people, it's all they ever wanted to be.
00:44:12
And uh for me, I I I thought of other things that I wanted to be, be it medical or or other. And um so I had
00:44:19
that in my mind. I always knew that maybe there was something else out there for me. And then there is a story in the
00:44:25
book where there is a poor outcome. I didn't operate on him, but he died on the ward. And I thought to myself, [ __ ]
00:44:34
if I miss something major, I don't think I can deal with it. I think I'm out. And
00:44:40
um this maybe was 2017, 2018, and I was waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for the coroner
00:44:47
report to come back to say that I'd missed something major. And uh that never eventuated but I I remember that
00:44:54
feeling and I and I don't I don't want that again. Uh you know you you can't
00:45:00
sleep. You know, this is a 30ish year old guy who had a major vehicle accident accident. Uh was on the ward like really
00:45:09
really well and then found dead in his bed and uh under my care and you know you I just I just kept thinking about
00:45:16
him for months and months and months wondering what the [ __ ] I did because he's 35 and a 35year-old shouldn't be
00:45:21
found dead in the bed. Um is this the guy that's um when you see him he's he's
00:45:26
in ICU but he's sitting up in bed and he asks you when he's going to be able to
00:45:29
return to mixed martial arts. That's it. Um, you know, and he, so he he looked
00:45:34
really well. Everything looked good. And Jesus, you just never know. And, um, so
00:45:40
when that happened, I I thought to myself, I think I need to be ready to leave cuz if I found some if they found
00:45:46
something that was my fault, I'm not sure I can I can continue. And so that was like another nail in the
00:45:53
coffin. And, you know, just it's just endless. actually the the public system
00:45:59
is endless. The demand is endless. The sadness is huge. Um and then on top of that I was dealing with my mother and uh
00:46:10
my own and when she died I dealt a lot with my own guilt for not having been there for her. M um and that was my own
00:46:19
choice actually because you know okay some families they're pathologies and you can't deal with family and actually
00:46:25
it's a relief to be able to work but then at the end of the day [ __ ] you only
00:46:29
have one mother and when she's gone it's too late and they found that difficult
00:46:33
to reconcile as well. So all of that kind of made me really really ready to leave. Um, and in amongst all of that, I
00:46:44
I started for a love, not because I was really looking for something to leave for, but uh, I had a dog with
00:46:54
dermatitis, and uh, there really wasn't I wasn't happy with how she was being
00:46:58
managed. And we deal a lot with dermatitis in the hospital. For anybody with dermatitis or asthma, you
00:47:04
moisturize, moisturize, moisturize. And they were putting my dog on drugs. and and I real and I did a lot of research
00:47:10
and found that dogs and humans are exactly the same in terms of the pathology. So, we made moisturizing skin
00:47:14
care for dogs. Fear love, by the way. I'm a big fan. And my little dog Kanye,
00:47:20
so so is he. My uh my partner, she'll create like a doggy day spa and he just
00:47:24
sits there and she'll like rub it into his paws. He just has his eyes like about 80% shut. Yeah. Just living his
00:47:31
best life. But it just seems like such a such a bizarre career pivot. But I can see I can see it would be far more
00:47:37
rewarding and enjoy enjoyable in certain ways. I'm not sure if it's far more
00:47:41
rewarding. I mean, it's totally different in the hospital. You're you're
00:47:47
um I was going to say I can only think of the French word, excuse me, but you're very well framed, right? You
00:47:52
don't operate out of what you what the protocol is. And uh and uh this is how
00:47:59
we're trained to be. We're tunnneled uh in surgery. only you operate the the the
00:48:05
frame and uh this is what the management relies on you not trying to get outside
00:48:10
the frame not trying to think outside the the box um but it's different I mean
00:48:17
it's bloody hard it's challenging but you're meeting people from all sorts of
00:48:21
walks of life and people who've left uh highflying jobs corporate jobs to to
00:48:25
start new businesses or with new ideas and and in France they're really there's
00:48:30
a they call it startup nation There's a lot of money that goes to startups and
00:48:34
entrepreneurship. So there's this kind of environment where people have the appetite for it and they understand how
00:48:39
it works because it's hard. And when you reflect on that um surgery part of your
00:48:45
life which is a big chapter um yeah how do you look back at it? Is it with with fondness? Is there a bit of bitterness
00:48:51
there or no bitterness? I love it. I loved it. I met some amazing people both colleagues and and patients actually
00:48:59
because I mean I suppose that was the other inspiration for writing the book is you have no idea what patients have
00:49:04
to put up with you know when they're on their cancer journeys and when it doesn't go well or even when it goes
00:49:10
well what they have to endure to get to the end is enormous and so uh you know I
00:49:16
I hoped and I hope that people when they get to the end of the book they have that realization that [ __ ] like I have
00:49:23
no idea what you know my neighbor is going through who was going through cancer treatment the hospital and so I
00:49:29
know I look back at it with it was an opportunity for me to to leave the islands because I left on a scholarship
00:49:36
and uh and like it's it's amazing I mean who gets to do that not not many people
00:49:42
yeah let's um let's zoom in on your early years for a little bit so um you're from Samoa y um yeah what are
00:49:50
your reflections on growing up in Samoa was there lots of volleyball were you good at volleyball
00:49:54
Every time I go to Samo, it just seems like every every village every family village is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People go
00:50:00
and do their jobs and then 3 4 in the afternoon, everyone's playing volleyball. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not good
00:50:05
at volleyball. Great at net though. We'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah. I played net a lot. Um but no, I I mean I loved
00:50:11
it. It was uh I was born in New Zealand, but then my parents moved us back when I
00:50:15
was around seven or eight. And you're you're free range basically. I mean, the
00:50:20
weather's good. Uh life is good. It's, you know, super chilled. It's nice. And
00:50:25
I'm grateful for that opportunity. I really think it it changed me. I think I
00:50:29
would have been a different person had I spent all my life in New Zealand. I really I've I've really had, as you say,
00:50:34
three worlds, which is which is really a gift. Yeah. What's your connection like
00:50:39
now to your to your culture? Um, I love artis. Oh, who doesn't? Who doesn't? But can
00:50:49
you can you speak much somehat? Uh yes, but I it's totally like in the back of
00:50:55
my brain. I hope that it will kind of come to life if I if I've if I have to
00:51:00
do it again. Yeah, cuz I had um Kevin Mamu, the the famous All Black on the podcast recently and um he almost
00:51:07
carries like a bit of guilt or shame that he can't speak Son and he he doesn't feel like he's a good son and to
00:51:12
be fair to him like he's he's never lived there like he was born in um Tokoa
00:51:16
I think it was. Um but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just I'm curious to know how it
00:51:22
feels like um if you live elsewhere and you know. No, I mean I um I I spoke it at least, but of course I don't speak it
00:51:31
anymore. Um but what's the connection to my culture? Actually, I do I still do a
00:51:36
lot um for Pacific Health. I um you know, I publish a lot uh in medical journals and do a lot of research for
00:51:45
Pacific outcomes and cancer. So, I'm really I'm really driven to improve um
00:51:50
inequity, which we're not allowed to say under the current government. But um is
00:51:55
that right? Is that a bad word? Equity at need. We have to say need populations. But uh yeah, I mean I'm
00:52:03
really driven to do to help help them be better in terms of cancer outcomes, access to good cancer care. So I hope
00:52:13
that I'm an advocate at least uh and certainly my intent that's my intention
00:52:19
when I publish but outside of that um yes one thing you share about um at length in your book is um you know your
00:52:29
your relationship with your your parents um your mom in particular um but also your dad who was um quite abusive. Yeah.
00:52:38
Yeah. I mean is he is he still alive? Yes. got dementia. Yeah. And and terrible de like bedbound absolutely
00:52:46
horrible um endstage dementia. Uh but I mean when I first when the book came out
00:52:56
nine or so months ago, one of the first reviews that was on Tik Tok was it's
00:53:01
amaz it's an amazing book and Ana was abused as a child. And I must say I was
00:53:07
shocked to hear it because I never felt that way. And I spoke to my sisters and my brother and actually well all of us
00:53:15
that grew up in the islands all of us grew up and we shared stories about what our fathers did and that was normal. You
00:53:22
know you kind of grow up with these fathers who were very strict who go to church every Sunday who um who know who
00:53:31
don't know any better and sure it's not right. And okay, fine if we want to say
00:53:36
he was abusive. Yeah. I mean, he didn't know how to manage his anger and he was
00:53:39
a horrible husband and not an amazing father. But even amongst us, the six of us,
00:53:46
sisters and brothers, uh, you know, one or two feel they were abused and most of us don't.
00:53:53
So, I mean, I mean, well, there's there's a story in there about, you know, your dad dragging
00:53:59
you out of a nightclub when you're 17, which must be so humiliating and and um
00:54:04
and even punching you in front of your friends. I mean, that's abuse. Yeah. Well, you're right. Yeah. But, uh I
00:54:11
suppose we all shared it as friends cuz all our cuz we were all going through the same thing with our parents. I mean,
00:54:18
you know, it's kind of the way you're brought up in the islands. Not all not everybody has the same
00:54:25
experience, but it's not uncommon. You know, I remember seeing uh my friend uh
00:54:30
being beaten on the porch by her mother and uh you kind of all just laugh at it and you share those stories at school.
00:54:36
You know, I I remember going to a friend's house uh and there were holes in the wall and there were holes in the
00:54:41
wall because her father was took a golf club and was swinging at them and it made big [ __ ] holes in the wall. And
00:54:48
uh you don't think, okay, it's abuse because we're not we're not growing up
00:54:54
in an environment where somebody tells us that's abuse. Actually, that's just
00:54:57
the way your dad is or you know that's that's normal. And I suppose if and
00:55:01
similar things have happened to your friends. It's just like a like lowkey trauma bonding. Right. Right. Which is
00:55:06
not right. So you can understand with with this in mind and you with with you what you've seen since then like um you
00:55:12
know with through your medical career now living in France like you know that that's that's not a normal way to be
00:55:18
raised. So you can understand if there's a disconnect between you and the person
00:55:21
you are now and your you know Samoan roots and culture. Yeah. Well you know I I just well I well I I'm better actually
00:55:29
than that. I don't I've never struck my son. I I know it's not right. I know it
00:55:34
gets it doesn't get what I want out of him. And at the end of the day, okay,
00:55:38
well, he wasn't. It was just his weakness as a man. That's actually the way I look at it. Do you think um do you
00:55:46
think your dad was proud of you? Yeah. Yeah. I think he was proud I think he was probably afraid of me.
00:55:54
Really? In what way? Just cuz you're so smart, so intimidating or No, I think
00:55:57
so. I think I left home when I was 17 and I didn't need him anymore and then
00:56:01
every time I came back I think he just probably felt less and less in my eyes. Um I think might be wrong but uh no I
00:56:10
think he was proud. Suppose the more you grew grew up the the you know he sort of
00:56:15
realized or came to accept the less power and control he had over you. Absolutely. Um but also you left at 17
00:56:20
you wanted to leave um earlier to go to boarding school. That's right. I wanted
00:56:23
to leave when I was 13. Yeah. Um, so with all this in mind, like what why did you lean in to help him like in the
00:56:29
dementia unit? Like there's stories in there about you you making an effort to
00:56:32
go and visit him feeding him stewed apples. Um, even though was he even aware that you were there visiting at
00:56:37
that time? No. And actually, you know, a good friend said to me, why do you even
00:56:42
bother? But, you know, he is he was my father and and I don't uh I don't hold
00:56:48
any anger. He I think exactly as I said it was his weakness as a man that he was
00:56:54
like that. Uh he wasn't the best father. He could only do as as as good as he
00:57:00
knew how to even if I think that was not good enough. He you know I'm I hope I
00:57:05
hope that he just thought he was trying his best. And most of us that's what we
00:57:10
do and people are only capable of doing the best they can do because of the way they grow up etc. So I don't have any
00:57:17
anger towards him. I didn't need him from the age I was 17 and and uh he didn't treat my mother well. And that's
00:57:24
my biggest, you know, hang up with him. But he's a different man now. He's not
00:57:28
the same man. He's gone. He's in dilly land. And uh and now it's horrible to
00:57:34
watch him because he is still a human and he is still my father and he's actually just a vegetable. Yeah. So you
00:57:41
leave Samara at the earliest possible convenience. Why why med school? It seems like you were really good at sport
00:57:47
like um you know Samoa uh team level player. Um seems like you're incredibly
00:57:53
smart. What were the other options? What else could you have done or what else did you want to do? Well, I got a
00:57:59
scholarship and uh well as scholarships work. It's either you're going to be a
00:58:04
doctor, you're going to be an accountant, or you're going to be a lawyer. And uh so actually I just chose
00:58:09
medicine. Is it really hard? How many years is it? Six years. Yeah, but it's
00:58:14
not it's not just 6 years. It's 6 years until you get your degree and then it's
00:58:18
endless after that, right? You enter your junior doctor years and then your senior doctor years and then your
00:58:23
consultant years. So, actually six years is just the just the very beginning. And
00:58:28
you have no idea what it's going to be like at the end. Just like you have no
00:58:33
idea what it's going to be like the first time somebody says, "Well, you
00:58:38
what you've done is is the cause of this man's death." M I mean you can never
00:58:43
imagine it. So we're illprepared. And imagine that you go to med school when
00:58:47
you're 18. Oh my god, they're so young. They're so young. It's um yeah, it's
00:58:53
such a burden of responsibility, isn't it? It's incredible. And then um yeah,
00:58:58
towards the end of med school in your final year, um that's when you get pregnant, right? Um first of all, um so
00:59:04
you've you've done all this train like five and a half years training or
00:59:07
whatever at this point. How are you 26 weeks pregnant before notice? Come on, do better.
00:59:13
Denial. Denial. Morning sickness or nothing? No. Were you showing at all or? No, but I was a bit fuller. Like my
00:59:20
chest was a little bit fuller and I was eating bags of apples. Like I never ate bags of apples before. Like a craving.
00:59:27
Like a craving. Huge. And um but of course it's I mean denial is a powerful powerful thing.
00:59:36
So I was a bit tired. Uh I was in the World Cup team to go to Jamaica, the World Cup that year, Neville. And I went
00:59:42
to see my doctor and uh said uh I'm tired. He said, "Okay, I'm going to do
00:59:47
some blood tests." Called me later that afternoon, said you're pregnant. And I
00:59:51
said, "I I can't have the baby. I I can't. I'm finishing med school. I'm I'm
00:59:56
I'm playing net ball. Uh and I've got big things to do in my life. I can't."
01:00:01
And he said, "Fine, just come in. Well, actually, I'm booking you for a
01:00:05
termination next week on Thursday, but go get dated on Monday. And so I and he said, "Don't look at the ultrasound
01:00:13
screen." And I went and I had my and I was lying there and the lady put the
01:00:17
probe on my belly and uh the first thing she says is, "Oh my god, look at his
01:00:22
arms and his legs and his heartbeat." And actually, well, at the end of the
01:00:25
day, it was too late. And I am a firm believer that things happen for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. So, this was in your
01:00:30
third trimester that you found 26 weeks. That's the third trimester, right? If it was early enough, do you think um
01:00:36
Yeah. You would have terminated? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm happy that the
01:00:40
decision finally wasn't in my hands. Of course. Of course. Um Yeah. How did you
01:00:46
manage the Sorry, just the the net ball as well. Like, how did you So, I wasn't
01:00:49
allowed to go. Yeah. Yeah. You weren't allowed to go, but I'm just wondering
01:00:51
how you manage all the the workload that's required with um medical studies as well as um you know, being a high
01:00:57
performance athlete. like like it's um it's a lot. I'm in a what you did, but it's like how did you
01:01:05
manage it? Yeah, it was tough. But in med school, well, you can. It's when you
01:01:10
become a doctor that you can't anymore. I mean, med school, okay, fine. You're
01:01:13
just at school from 8 to 5 studying and uh and running. But I mean, there are a lot of athletes who do that, right? a
01:01:20
lot of uh lawyers in training, um you know, doctors in training who who are all blacks and uh and professional sport
01:01:28
players, aren't there in New Zealand? I think so. I think we're pretty supportive in general of of uh elite
01:01:33
sports people. So, um yeah, you have your son, Old Rich. Yeah. So, he's you give birth on a Monday and then on
01:01:42
Friday you have your final exam. Yeah. So I was doing uh pediatrics at the time kind of perfectly timed and I yeah I
01:01:50
actually the exit exam was on the Friday and I said uh well listen I just had a baby can I postpone the exam and they
01:02:00
said no you have to sit it. So of you know when when you're 20 god how old was
01:02:05
I 21 22 trying not to make waves cuz [ __ ] who else is having babies in med school? Not
01:02:11
many. and uh you just do it. Of course, if I think back, I you know, well, I should have put up a fight because if I
01:02:18
had a cold or a migraine, I could have had that pushed, right? They would have been more compassionate.
01:02:26
Yeah. Yeah. How do you not have a chip on your shoulder about that? That feels really really mean-spirited in a way,
01:02:33
doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's it's pretty poor. I mean, some guy who makes
01:02:37
a decision who doesn't know any better really. I try not to carry ships. Turn it to what? Carrie chips. Car
01:02:44
chips. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. When you look back now, like, are you proud of your younger self? Do you like
01:02:50
do you wonder how you got through it? Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty proud. But I mean, and I'm going to talk on a more
01:02:56
global female sort of vision. I think women do this all the time. And uh, you know, you you're just kind of accepting
01:03:03
that there are barriers and you got to jump them. You got to work a little bit harder to prove that you can get through
01:03:09
them. is not necessarily right, but we do, you know, I've got a lot of young
01:03:13
colleagues who have children in training or in young consultancy and and uh it's
01:03:21
[ __ ] hard work, but you just kind of double down, work doubly hard to try to manage your home and your life and your
01:03:29
professional your job so that so that people don't see how much you're impacted. M um and that's not exclusive
01:03:38
to medicine actually. It's it's across the board. Uh you know after the book
01:03:41
I've had women um like 99% women send messages uh engineers uh you know all these highprofile professions and
01:03:50
actually it doesn't even have to be that you know the any woman who is trying to
01:03:54
work and raise a family knows that actually well the the barriers are a bit higher. Yeah. You you've got a great
01:04:03
relationship with your son now by the sounds of things. There's a a quote in
01:04:06
the book towards the end. Uh he is a brave and he is brave and gentle and he made me better. He made my life worth
01:04:13
something that he still thinks the world of me is a miracle. Yes. Yeah. This is true. So nice. Um you must have I can't
01:04:20
imagine the mom guilt you had uh like when he was young and I still you're always tired and sleepd deprived anyway
01:04:26
and then Yeah. Plus he's so accepting of it. He just knows. He knows his mother's
01:04:30
weaknesses and uh as he said to me two weeks ago, you're just so outside the
01:04:35
box. I can't predict what's going to happen. And that's not that's very
01:04:40
difficult for me. And of course, it must be tough for him. We don't live a conventional life. And uh we've moved a
01:04:46
lot. And of course, I think this is amazing because I never had the opportunity to do to do that. But he
01:04:52
thinks, well, I would have just liked a normal life. Thanks. for the mother. You know, it's good that you got a good
01:04:59
relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so your mom died of died of cancer. Um, and this is sort of a thread through through the
01:05:06
book. So, she um fell into a coma on Christmas Day and then um died rather peacefully sounding by all accounts,
01:05:13
four days later. Um, do you remember your last conversation with her? Not really. Yeah, I mean I remember that
01:05:22
every time she was alert because in those last two weeks um she was sort of in and out of she wasn't very alert. She
01:05:30
had a her liver was packed full of metastatic disease so she was jaundest and and so she wasn't very clear or
01:05:37
lucid. I remember that I was always trying to tell her god I'm going to miss
01:05:42
you you know. Um, and actually maybe the last lucid conversation was when I asked
01:05:51
her, "What song do you want us to play at your funeral?" You know, "What do you
01:05:55
want us to do?" And um, maybe that was the most that's that was the conversation I remember the most. But I
01:06:03
mean it was such a tough time and uh and I had a lot of anger and I tried to spend as much time
01:06:10
away outside of the house working and uh so probably of course one of my regrets
01:06:16
is that I never gave her the opportunity to have a conversation with me because probably it wasn't I just did not allow
01:06:21
her to have a conversation with me. I had a lot of of a lot of anger and probably that book has the book has
01:06:27
helped me be cathartic and you know when the book came out I have friends who said oh my god I didn't know your mother
01:06:32
was sick can you imagine I was working with people every day and they didn't
01:06:36
know my mother was living with me having chemotherapy um and I just was so good at
01:06:42
compartmentalizing I suppose yeah this this is what I've referenced a couple of
01:06:45
times in this chat like you had these massive massive walls up um and now you've got this book out where you just
01:06:51
like word vomiting all your deepest most intimate secrets out there. Um, yeah. Yeah. The stuff about your mom,
01:07:02
I feel like you got there in the end, right? Like it's feels like you were angry and frustrated. I don't know
01:07:08
because because she didn't do enough to protect you or because she didn't leave
01:07:10
your father. Was that part of Yeah. All of the above. And not even me. I think it was my my siblings. And uh God just
01:07:19
but she worked her she worked all her life to look after her children, you know, and and uh she suffered. She was a
01:07:25
long-suffering wife and probably that's that was why I was angry actually. She
01:07:29
was a long-suffering wife. Why why um I don't know. You'll just be speculating
01:07:33
here, but why why didn't she leave your dad? Like she would have had your your
01:07:36
full support, you know, emotional and probably financial as well. Was it like a like a a religious thing? Was it a
01:07:42
sense of duty? Do you think she actually loved him? Was it fair? No, I think it's
01:07:45
it was a sense of duty. Uh and uh I think she just believed in in being a a wife and the best wife that she could
01:07:54
possibly be. And maybe it's generational. Maybe that's a generalization. But I do think uh it has
01:08:01
something to do with it because of course we wouldn't accept it these days. Um but no, I think she just had this
01:08:08
duty uh probably culturally and she was incredibly religious. So You asked me at the beginning of the
01:08:16
chat if I cried while reading it. Um, yeah, there's probably the saddest moment for me and I I was probably sad
01:08:22
for you more than anything else. Um, you talk about the relationship that your siblings have with your mom and how
01:08:27
they, you know, lie down with her in bed and, you know, spoon or whatever. Then there was a time where your mom wanted
01:08:32
you to sit next to her and you deliberately sat on a far away chair. And reading the book, I could I could
01:08:37
sense you wanted to have that relationship. there's just some sort of like invisible barrier that held you
01:08:43
back. Yeah. Just too much, you know, just time and too many things happen and too much water under the bridge, right?
01:08:49
And it's then it's just too far gone. And uh you can't just sort of create
01:08:53
that relationship if it's not pre-existing, can you? Right. It was just uh there was there was too much
01:08:59
anger and she couldn't you know probably she was angry at me and uh because I
01:09:03
wasn't there for her when she was going through the hardest point of her relationship with her husband and I I
01:09:08
couldn't get over her not just not just leaving. Do you um are you at peace with with how
01:09:15
the relationship with your mommy ended up or like when you write write something like that and think back on it
01:09:19
like do you wish damn why didn't I just get over myself? Well, of course I have
01:09:22
regrets, but um I think I'm at peace because actually I've never spoken about
01:09:27
my mother so much in my life like as since the release of the book, right? You know, is it okay? Yeah, it's good.
01:09:34
And it's great. And uh you know, people say, "Well, what was who was the biggest
01:09:39
what was the biggest motivation in your life?" And actually, well, it was my
01:09:42
mother because she woke up at 2:00 a.m. every morning to work for her family and
01:09:48
and I saw that firsthand and and she would just give the clothes off her back for for anybody. And uh so, of course, I
01:09:56
look at her with admiration now and I speak about her all the time in a way that I never did in my life, ever. So, I
01:10:02
feel in some way I'm closer to her. And um you know, my cousin last week said to
01:10:09
me, "When I speak to you, it reminds me of of your mom." And so, actually,
01:10:13
probably we're we're just two alike. And do you still um cuz she said to you
01:10:19
something like, "Um, yeah. Once I'm gone, when the clouds pass and you see
01:10:23
the sun, think of me." Yeah. Do you? Yes. When I see a rainbow, we were driving in Sicily in uh over after
01:10:31
Christmas and there was a beautiful, beautiful rainbow. And of course, I think it's my mother. But it took me a
01:10:35
long time to see that. Like it took me months and months to be happy to see the clouds and the sunshine and the
01:10:42
rainbows. I just was too sad to see it for a very very long time. Which I suppose is normal normal grief. And uh
01:10:48
but now uh no I I see I see a rainbow and I think it's my mother. And sometimes when I
01:10:55
need divine intervention I say please mom look after me. That's so sweet. Yeah. And there's a a
01:11:02
line in there that I really like. only now do I see the beauty in our family. Yeah. Um, every family's got their own
01:11:08
[ __ ] going on. Yeah. But sometimes it's just too late by the time you realize
01:11:11
that actually it's special and probably that happens happens more often than
01:11:16
not, you know, and when you're you you kind of have this family which is, you
01:11:20
know, pathological cuz I've decided that most families have their pathologies and
01:11:24
you always take the role of you and whatever you were in your family. So you can't get over it actually cuz you just
01:11:31
will be the dom in your family. Where were you in the birth order? Number one. Oh, okay. Oh, so you're the matriarch of
01:11:40
the family now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um our families, they complicated things. That's horrible. Everyone Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:48
Every everyone's family is [ __ ] up in their own way. Exactly. Exactly. And
01:11:52
unfortunately, it's difficult to grow out of that role because you'll always
01:11:56
take the same role you are in as a son or a father or a brother. Actually, it it's hard to change out of that. It is.
01:12:05
There's a lot to unpack with that. You and I will maybe we can get a bold on a there. Yeah, exactly. Um okay, so
01:12:14
let's talk about life now. So, um fur love. So, you're you're still doing some
01:12:17
some surgical stuff. You're keeping your you're dipping your toe in that water.
01:12:20
Yeah, a little bit. But is that like a muscle memory thing? Like if you if you don't use it, you lose it. No, actually
01:12:26
it's like riding a bike, right? Yeah. It's like I mean obviously you've got to
01:12:30
just be a bit more careful and think, you know, I might have rushed in and done something in 20 minutes, but now
01:12:35
I'm just like, "Okay, fine. Just take my time." But surprisingly, it's like
01:12:40
riding a bike. I mean, we've done it. We did it for years and we did thousands
01:12:44
and thousands. You had to in training. That was part of it. just have to have that, you know, automaticity kind of.
01:12:51
Um, so that's that. But no, now I'm pretty much full-time for love. Um, and
01:12:58
we've launched in France. We're in New Zealand. France, we've been launching
01:13:01
through the vets. And, uh, they've taken to it so well in France because it's
01:13:06
because they understand skinincare and, uh, of course the dog is a huge part of their of their life. So, yeah. Oh,
01:13:13
you're doing wonderful with that. And it must be um yeah quite satisfying. I I I
01:13:18
said before I I thought it might be more rewarding than your previous job. Um and
01:13:22
I suppose what I mean in that respect is that you you know you're dealing with
01:13:25
dogs and dogs are dog owners and I think dogs are just the best thing ever. Like
01:13:28
we don't deserve dogs. And therefore dog owners are happy. Yeah. They're just
01:13:33
they're just happy and they want to do the best for their dog. Yeah. And your
01:13:37
French husband um Krishna. Yeah. Yeah. So he's one of the world's leading um
01:13:41
breast surgeons and some say he's a Daniel Craig lookalike. Yes. So where did you guys meet? So a
01:13:49
bit boring actually. A conference. There was a conference in Nottingham and uh which is not the most amazing part of
01:13:56
the world but we were there at a meeting and he was lecturing and uh we crossed paths there
01:14:01
crossed in the corridor. You know how it is. And then he uh there was a meeting in New Zealand and we invited him and he
01:14:07
flew over and you know in typical French manner he said uh he'd flown over to see
01:14:12
me. So there you go. There's his history. So he's he's like a breast
01:14:15
specialist and you you are as well right? Yeah. Um so I I don't know if this is an easy question to ask or not,
01:14:21
but what are the most common questions um patients ask about their breasts? Well, I mean most people who see us
01:14:29
because he's actually breast cancer, they are they're breast cancer. So really, it's a, you know, we're talking
01:14:36
about what what surgery they're going to have, what it's going to what the
01:14:39
treatment's going to entail. I mean, they're not so worried about the cosmetic outcome at that point. Of
01:14:46
course, we get crazy questions like women who want to be bigger, who uh who come in with a picture of uh some double
01:14:54
D blonde on a Miami, you know, in Florida on the beach somewhere in a white bikini and that's crazy. But
01:15:02
actually most of the time in breast cancer then it's pretty it's pretty cut
01:15:06
and dried. Yeah. And you like your running e. What sort of role does running play in your life these days? I
01:15:12
adore running. I mean the life I mean in Paris it's tough because it's not sport is not every day
01:15:19
there. You know here you see people running, you people surfing, cycling and in Paris it's not quite the same. It's
01:15:24
more like a cigarette in a cafe. But um I run every day and you know we spoke before about the clarity that it brings
01:15:33
and and for me yeah it's it's clarity when there's a lot of noise in my head
01:15:39
or when I'm not sure there's a lot of stress then then when I run you know I I
01:15:44
have these moments of clarity I think just the unimportant stuff just drops out of my head and and I come back with
01:15:50
a with a renewed vigor or focus. So yeah I run a lot in Paris. Uh I joined a running club but it was incredibly
01:15:57
difficult to find because um because it's not it's not a strong culture there. Uh and uh a few years ago I did
01:16:06
the root brand. I think this the same year you did the root or maybe you've done it many times but you know I
01:16:11
remember that sort of 35 33ks and it was just one of the best runs that I ever did. I mean, it was bloody tough, but um
01:16:24
there's just something so rewarding about it. Yeah. Road road running like um just running running from, you know,
01:16:31
5ks, however far you're running from home. I find that a really good way to um just get the endorphins out and also
01:16:37
almost like um wipe the slate clean in your head, just like clear your head. Um there's obviously good physical benefits
01:16:43
as well, but the mental health benefits are exceeding for me. But trail running like the root burn. Um
01:16:49
the thing I like about that, you just have to be in the moment. Like you have to you can't think about anything else.
01:16:54
Like you're looking at where where your next foot strike's going to be or else
01:16:56
you're going to roll an ankle or something and then hope that you're running behind you so you can administer
01:17:01
some medicine. No, it's not way back though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um just a quick a couple of
01:17:08
quick easy ones to finish with. What do you think your best and worst habits are?
01:17:12
[Laughter] It's probably the same. Um, okay. My I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I'll
01:17:23
I constantly pick and I think it's one of my best habits because I uh because
01:17:31
it drives me because I I can work non-stop from whatever and in France in Paris I do because I work with
01:17:39
New Zealand and I work with Europe. I can work non-stop. Um, but at the same time, it's incredibly frustrating for
01:17:46
people around me. So, for them, it's my worst habit, but for me, it's my best.
01:17:51
The reason I I I'm free. I You know what? I feel sort of this the same way. Like, for example, I had a podcast
01:17:57
yesterday and it didn't go as as well as what I hoped. And yesterday afternoon, I
01:18:01
was at the sale GP like in these um $179 tickets. And in the back of my mind, I was just thinking about what I should
01:18:07
have done differently or how I could have played the podcast differently. And it's like, as I said to you before, it's
01:18:11
not saving lives or anything, but it's um it's quite exhausting, eh, being a a
01:18:15
perfectionist or having a growth mindset or type A or whatever you want to call it. No, it's very exhausting and it's
01:18:21
actually exhausting for people around us as well. But I mean, it's harder for for
01:18:26
us. I mean, imagine being in our heads. So, do do you have any personal work on?
01:18:31
You mean things that I work on? Yeah. Oh, you know, I think uh especially with starting a new business, it's tough
01:18:39
because the reward is not the same as doing surgery. In surgery, you're you're
01:18:43
seeing 30 patients in your clinic. You're operating. You've got instant reward.
01:18:47
And in business, it's totally different because you don't have that instant
01:18:51
reward. You don't know if it's going well. You're bloody hoping things go
01:18:55
well. And and then you feel I just I just felt like I couldn't have a break.
01:18:59
Uh I I didn't deserve a break. This is my big thing. I, you know, I I I worked
01:19:03
so hard to get to where I am today. And so it's my thing. It's the way that I
01:19:08
succeed. I I can work all day and all night. Um, and when you don't have that
01:19:13
feedback in business, you feel like you're not achieving or you're not getting to the end or you don't deserve
01:19:18
it. There's no end point. And uh, I just decided that actually, bloody hell, I'm
01:19:25
so lucky. I live in Paris. I've come so far. We're just going to take each day
01:19:30
as it comes. You never know what's going to happen. And New Year's resolution was
01:19:35
just, you know, we say so many times, um, I'd like to see this. I want to I want to go there. And actually, I'm just
01:19:42
going to do it. So, you know, just just sees the day. Just try and, you know, just we're bloody lucky
01:19:50
to have health actually. You have no idea how quickly things can just change. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're only
01:19:56
too aware of that. But yeah, there's there's a quote that I really like. It
01:19:59
goes something like um a person that's has their health can have many wishes,
01:20:02
unlimited wishes. A person that doesn't have their health only has one wish.
01:20:06
Yeah. Yeah. So stay alive. Um but are you are you good at like being in the moment and appreciating that? Like I
01:20:12
know you live in an apartment with a view of the Eiffel Tower like like are you good at like looking at that in the
01:20:17
morning and going, "Fuck me. This girl from Samoa is Yeah. Yeah. Yes and no.
01:20:21
Yeah. Of course. When I look at the Eiffel Tower, I'm like [ __ ] it. This is
01:20:24
amazing. Like I never thought I would be here." But then I'm always like, "Okay,
01:20:28
what's next?" And my husband hates it. I'm like, "What's next?" Okay, I can't
01:20:33
wait until I do this or I can't wait until I see this. So that's the thing. I
01:20:36
have to stop, you know? I'm always like, "I can't wait to go and do this." Which
01:20:42
So I'm always waiting for the next thing. Yeah. Yeah. There's parallels. Yeah. Do you
01:20:48
have any What are your regrets? You have any regrets? Well, probably it's going to be uh it's
01:20:54
going to be related to to my mother really and not not being strong enough to have spent the time to have sat next
01:21:02
to her cuz actually it would have just made her so happy. You know, why the [ __ ] didn't I just go and sit next to
01:21:07
her when she asked me to come and sit next to her on the bed? And I didn't do
01:21:10
that. It must have hurt her. Um you know, we're just so stubborn sometimes. Well, not we, but me. And um No, all of
01:21:17
us. All of us. Yeah. And actually, well, why didn't I just do that? It would have
01:21:21
taken no effort on my part and it would have made her so happy and sometimes we're just so wrapped up in ourselves
01:21:27
that we just can't just can't give. Um so that would be my biggest regret not
01:21:33
sitting on that bed. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people that are listening to this today that have you know perhaps
01:21:40
elderly elderly parents or you know parents of any age you know it just makes you realize you still have time to
01:21:48
fix these relationships. Um because the last thing you want is them dying and you having regrets, I guess, for selfish
01:21:53
reasons as much as anything else. Yeah. But actually, well, I was ready for my mom to die, but I I wasn't ready for my
01:22:01
mother to die. I think you can't imagine what it's like to lose a mother until
01:22:05
you've lost your mother. She's the person that brought you into this world.
01:22:09
And you know, she might have been great or she might she might not have been great. people do the best that they can
01:22:14
do with the information they have and you know with with the environment they grew up in um this what I believe people
01:22:21
always try to do their best and and uh you only have one mother and when she's
01:22:26
gone she's gone. If if there could be three words that you'd like you know your siblings or
01:22:32
your husband or your son or your friend to use to describe you what would they be? Kind.
01:22:40
Definitely kind. Um, funny, you know, make people happy, make people laugh. Um, and this is probably a little
01:22:51
ego. Intelligent. Intelligent. Oh, no. And last one. Last one. Are you proud of yourself? Yeah. Yeah, I am. I
01:23:01
mean, I'm not who I am because of me. uh you know my mother was huge in my in my
01:23:08
frame and you know my father for all his weaknesses and actually everybody that we cross contributes to the person that
01:23:14
you are. Mhm. So yeah, I'm I'm bloody proud cuz I came from nothing. I really
01:23:19
came from nothing. You know, in the book I talk about all six of us sleeping in one bed and one bedroom for years. We
01:23:27
were we didn't we had nothing. So yeah. Yeah. I'm proud. Six people in one room.
01:23:33
It sounds like the public health system. Yeah, it was like a little circle. I went right back. All right, Dr.
01:23:39
Meredith, um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. This has been bloody great. Yeah, it's been a
01:23:44
pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for reaching out and I'm I'm so pleased.
01:23:47
It's been a year in the making, but we finally got to connect. It's been cool.
01:23:50
Definitely worth it. Thank you so much.