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Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

May 06, 2023 / 01:12:23

This episode features Campbell Johnston, a former All Black rugby player, discussing his journey of coming out as gay, his rugby career, and personal transformations. Topics include his experiences with teammates, the impact of his January 30th interview with Hillary Barry, and the reactions he received from the public.

Campbell shares insights about his weight loss journey, transitioning from a prop weighing over 110 kilos to 86 kilos, and how this change has affected his life. He reflects on his time in rugby, including his relationships with notable players like Kieran Read and Scott Robertson, and how the culture of rugby has evolved.

The conversation touches on Campbell's decision to come out publicly, the support he received, and the importance of being true to oneself. He emphasizes the positive reactions from fans and fellow athletes, and how his story has inspired others to re-engage with sports.

Campbell also discusses his upbringing, his experiences with mental health, and the significance of therapy in his life. He shares thoughts on the future of LGBTQ+ representation in sports and the normalization of coming out.

The episode concludes with Campbell expressing gratitude for the support he's received and the importance of being open about one's identity.

TL;DR

Campbell Johnston discusses coming out as gay, his rugby career, and the positive impact of his story on others.

Episode

1:12:23

00:00:00

hey Runners only with dime Harley

00:00:03

Runners only with dom Harvey and

00:00:05

Campbell Johnston g'day mate how are you

00:00:07

good thanks Tom yourself yeah very well

00:00:09

thank you so much for coming over for an

00:00:10

episode thank you for the invitation

00:00:13

it's been great first of all first of

00:00:14

all former front rower what the hell do

00:00:17

you know about running you run these

00:00:19

days you do look like a runner these

00:00:21

days but you didn't back in the day no

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yeah I've lost a lot of weight

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um I guess I just went back to my normal

00:00:26

size

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um as my mother says she um now thinks

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she's got her son back now I've lost all

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my weight because yeah I was always

00:00:34

never a huge man when I was growing up

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or when I was um starting off with rugby

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but um to play the position and playing

00:00:41

the sport you've got to put some size on

00:00:43

so that was what I had to do yeah

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because you were a prop yes correct so

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you're playing weight was playing weight

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was between 110 to 113 kilos shame what

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are you now who's sitting in front of me

00:00:55

86 kilos you like the same as me

00:00:59

it's like a completely different person

00:01:01

yeah um there's there's been a lot

00:01:03

that's been happening um for you since

00:01:05

uh January 30th this year when you did

00:01:07

that um seven sharp interview with um

00:01:09

Hillary had you had you heard the phrase

00:01:12

glow up before then

00:01:13

[Laughter]

00:01:15

um

00:01:17

I'm guessing you're not huge on Tech

00:01:19

talk no I'm not on Tick Tock yet but uh

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yeah no I hadn't heard the phrase there

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um yeah you know the interview yeah the

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interview is really good and

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um yeah I'm full confidence to uh

00:01:33

Hillary Barry she just made it so easy

00:01:35

like she's just a this ultimate

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professional and she just made it very

00:01:38

relaxed and very comfortable and and and

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and and just wonderful for me to be able

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to do that with her yeah oh man I'm so

00:01:44

excited to get into get into that by the

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way for anyone that um isn't sure the

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phrase glow up it's basically um when

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you get better looking with age

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um

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well you don't look like a front rower

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anymore I suppose that's what people

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mean all right now um how close are you

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with Kieran Reed one of the greatest all

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black captains of all time uh you've

00:02:04

recently

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it depends on what you're going to read

00:02:07

out um but they might change my opinion

00:02:10

I I sent uh Karen read a message

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yesterday asking uh saying I was

00:02:13

catching up with you and asking if he

00:02:14

had any Goss

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um he refers to you as CJ yeah yeah is

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that was that what your name was within

00:02:20

the team circles okay

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awesome to have CJ come on yeah we

00:02:24

crossed over for a couple of years I

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will ask Corey Flynn who knows him a bit

00:02:28

bit better who might have a few Yarns

00:02:30

well of course that Corey Flynn he was

00:02:31

in all black the same time as you played

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about I think 17 tests over a number of

00:02:35

years yeah so Corey and I were

00:02:37

we played a lot of rugby together both

00:02:39

when we were um eighth grade stuff and

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then in the Crusaders and uh and then

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Canterbury and and um and um and a

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couple of uh rep teams as well the

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Juniors and things like that so yeah

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does it does it make you um yeah your

00:02:53

palms getting sweaty yeah

00:02:55

I wasn't too consuming Karen Riggs I

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knew Karen nicest guy yeah nice guy but

00:03:01

when you mentioned Corey's name then I

00:03:03

was I was like oh hang on a minute all

00:03:05

things changed

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Dom's ambushed me

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um so uh Kieran Reid went on to say uh

00:03:12

to be honest

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CJ is probably the last person you'd

00:03:15

think that would be gay he enjoyed the

00:03:17

drinking putting on social events with a

00:03:19

few other boys his flight with Scott

00:03:21

Hamilton was where all the parties were

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at knowing now it must have been bloody

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hard for him but to me at the time he

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was just a great teammate who seemed to

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enjoy the Boost more than others

00:03:32

now I was I was thinking I was I was

00:03:35

thinking about that

00:03:36

um earlier this morning before you came

00:03:38

in and I didn't have you had therapy

00:03:40

over the years at all

00:03:42

I've done a bit of therapies and when

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you've done a bit of therapy you tend to

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well at least I do I tend to think how

00:03:48

would a therapist frame this so maybe

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this is just completely overthinking it

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but there's two ways uh two ways that I

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looked at it maybe you were drinking a

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lot at the time because you were masking

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or maybe like you were you were just

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doing what you could to be the

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definition of what you thought like a

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big manly man was like like being a

00:04:07

front rower being a successful rugby

00:04:08

player drinking a lot of piss yeah I

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mean it people have asked that and and

00:04:13

brought that up before but to be honest

00:04:18

I was playing and the time was coming

00:04:20

through there was this transition from

00:04:21

where it was amateur to professional and

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amateur and and at the time and and then

00:04:27

the new professionals still involved a

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lot of partying and a lot of good times

00:04:31

and the drinking was well not actually

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to mask anything but it was just because

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we were having fun like it was a part of

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the the so-called culture which as the

00:04:45

years went on it slowly you know it's

00:04:47

toned down to more professional sport

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but um yeah it was more so because of

00:04:52

the fun aspect and then really any any

00:04:55

masking I mean

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if yeah masking in drunk maybe I would

00:05:01

have just spilled something out or

00:05:02

yelled something out or just yeah so I

00:05:05

don't think it was masking yeah yeah or

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fun sorry that just means

00:05:08

psychoanalyzing without any formal

00:05:10

qualifications at all loves a good time

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yeah

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um Rito went on to say um they sent a

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follow-up text this morning saying sorry

00:05:17

mate sorry mate got nothing out of

00:05:19

flinny he said he said they weren't fit

00:05:22

for broadcast have a good chat well

00:05:24

without

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do you want to Spill the tea on that one

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can you think of any story that wouldn't

00:05:30

be fit for broadcast uh no no everything

00:05:33

was pretty pretty tame I think I just

00:05:36

enjoyed a nice pint at the pub and uh

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after a game and um and then yeah and

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everyone went home and that end no

00:05:45

further questions okay

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um now I I need to I need to warn you

00:05:49

like I may ask some dumb questions and

00:05:51

if or when I do please know that I'm not

00:05:53

trying to be a dumbass I'm just curious

00:05:55

okay yeah um okay so so Monday the 30th

00:05:58

of January this year uh seven sharp

00:06:00

interview with Hillary Barry

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um Talk us through the process leading

00:06:05

up to that like when who did you speak

00:06:07

to when did you decide to do it with

00:06:09

seven sharp what was that process

00:06:12

um so so a bit of a backstory is that

00:06:16

there's always media that was always

00:06:18

asking and going to Joe Malcolm and and

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they always knew Christian Joe Malcolm

00:06:24

was the media liaison obviously for the

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All Blacks and at the time when I was in

00:06:28

Canterbury and Crusaders she was media

00:06:30

liaison there so she's been a massive

00:06:32

help and a big support and um and they

00:06:35

always would come and ask and say you

00:06:36

know we know it we know this Campbell

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was a gay all black can we publish it

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and then it was always shut down because

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for me it wasn't it wasn't I didn't feel

00:06:47

right in myself or you know securing

00:06:49

myself to do that I wasn't happy with

00:06:51

myself so for me it was um it wasn't the

00:06:54

right time and then last year

00:06:56

we I spoke with Rob nickel from The

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Players Association and we had a

00:07:00

discussion around this whole

00:07:02

idea and how much it could really help

00:07:05

people out there and and and people

00:07:07

struggling with this and and I

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honest and and naively just thought well

00:07:13

I don't think it can I'm pretty happy

00:07:15

where my life is and and that and I am

00:07:18

comfortable but I don't think I can

00:07:19

really help it's you know it's just a

00:07:21

little little on me I'm

00:07:22

don't really have no you are a little

00:07:24

now yeah exactly you don't really have

00:07:26

much to offer and then

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we talked more about it and it did

00:07:31

become apparent that there is you know

00:07:33

it could actually help and then so Rob

00:07:35

and I

00:07:37

structured a little way that we thought

00:07:39

would be best which was just visiting

00:07:41

the Super Rugby teams and and and

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telling a story and and and and and that

00:07:46

was it and then if the media caught on

00:07:49

to it then you know that would be good

00:07:51

if they didn't we just keep trucking

00:07:53

along but then we thought we'd better

00:07:55

bring in Joe Malcolm just to get a

00:07:57

professional bit of advice on the media

00:07:59

aspect and Joe basically said you know

00:08:03

we're a little crazy doing it that way

00:08:06

and it's not really the best way and and

00:08:09

short words she just said you guys are

00:08:11

just so stupid and um and then she said

00:08:14

look you want to we want to actually

00:08:16

just front the media and kinda

00:08:19

pay them back the respect that they

00:08:22

showed me and and um and Joe by not

00:08:26

outing me at the time oh but come on

00:08:29

like like adding someone when they're

00:08:30

not ready it's like it's a it's a

00:08:32

[ __ ] sin it's a terrible it is it is

00:08:34

but someone could have done it yeah and

00:08:37

so the respect there was she said we

00:08:39

just make a public story

00:08:42

um we contact Hillary ask if she's

00:08:44

interested and we do it that way and

00:08:46

that that way they all can have it and

00:08:48

they can do what they they like with it

00:08:50

and so that was the the plan so we uh

00:08:54

Joe contacted Hillary Hillary was jumped

00:08:57

on it and um the rest is the what you

00:09:01

saw so when how long it was a

00:09:03

pre-recorded interview so um how long

00:09:05

before the 30th of January was it

00:09:06

recorded So we recorded on the Monday

00:09:09

morning the 30th of January that night

00:09:12

all right so you didn't have like weeks

00:09:13

to a certain no to tune over okay

00:09:16

straight away and there was a couple of

00:09:19

thoughts behind that one was I think uh

00:09:23

Hillary and that didn't want it leaking

00:09:25

um we had to keep it you know very

00:09:28

secret from a lot of avenues and it was

00:09:31

just going to be coming straight away

00:09:32

bang bang so it sounds like it was like

00:09:34

the worst kept secret you said some

00:09:36

media had been sort of handling the NZ

00:09:37

are you for years yeah so you

00:09:39

it's a strange thing is that because uh

00:09:42

like um I used to work with a guy called

00:09:43

Mike Peru who uh we worked together and

00:09:44

did a brick show for years and years and

00:09:46

years and he like he he came out on the

00:09:49

year one day

00:09:50

um

00:09:51

but he I mean he wasn't really in the

00:09:52

closet before that anyway and the

00:09:54

respect that his family knew his friends

00:09:56

knew all his workmates knew but he just

00:09:58

had that final step to like I suppose be

00:10:01

honest with his radio audience sounds

00:10:02

like it was sort of the same with you

00:10:03

yeah exactly I mean for me it was like

00:10:05

the final step just to have closure you

00:10:07

know you no longer have that

00:10:09

Cloud hanging over your head even though

00:10:12

your family your friends your teammates

00:10:13

everyone knows and there's all old news

00:10:15

but just uh you know laid a rest of that

00:10:18

final piece and it and it does give you

00:10:21

yourself peace you feel lighter yeah you

00:10:24

do you know you have final closure on

00:10:26

the matter and and the other thing it

00:10:28

was you know we can possibly help people

00:10:31

and even when we did we talked and even

00:10:33

if it was just helping one person you

00:10:35

know then it's it's been rewarding and

00:10:37

but the real sense of it it's actually

00:10:39

helped a lot of people by all the

00:10:41

messages and and and uh and that that

00:10:43

I've received from people who you know

00:10:46

who've left the game of rugby or left a

00:10:49

sport because they didn't feel included

00:10:51

or they didn't feel that they were a

00:10:53

part of it because they struggled with

00:10:54

their sexuality

00:10:56

um now they're actually looking thinking

00:10:58

to come back into that support into that

00:11:00

sport either as a a fan or a spectator

00:11:04

but or you know getting back involved in

00:11:06

actually playing that sport which is

00:11:08

really cool and it's something really

00:11:10

rewarding for um everyone you know if

00:11:12

people are considering to come back into

00:11:14

sport 100 so

00:11:17

so The Story Goes to here you're sitting

00:11:19

at home watching it with your partner uh

00:11:21

who else you have like a room full of

00:11:23

people or no just the two of you no so

00:11:25

we um how are you feeling you're

00:11:26

[ __ ] yourself

00:11:28

um no no no I wasn't I wasn't really I

00:11:31

was I mean because Hillary just made it

00:11:32

so easy like that was the beauty of it

00:11:35

yeah but that's one thing you do the

00:11:36

interview with Hillary but then it's

00:11:37

like okay it's time for it to go to

00:11:38

where and now everyone's gonna see it

00:11:41

yeah yeah no um so we were just in in

00:11:44

the hotel room in Christchurch we

00:11:46

watched the interview and yeah it was

00:11:50

like okay I sort of probably head under

00:11:52

the bed while the interview went and

00:11:54

then uh yeah and then um then we went

00:11:57

out and had a couple of drinks with um a

00:11:59

few friends

00:12:00

um that we'd organized and that and um

00:12:02

yeah that was it really and yeah then

00:12:05

then what your phone's blowing up

00:12:07

um yeah like like what yeah I mean yeah

00:12:10

like what happened that evening

00:12:12

obviously you felt different yourself

00:12:14

like it's a massive sort of weight off

00:12:15

your shoulders

00:12:17

um but what was like the external

00:12:18

reaction like

00:12:19

um the external reaction was was

00:12:20

incredible like the the

00:12:22

um it spread around the world like

00:12:24

wildfire like the phone was just um you

00:12:27

know pinging

00:12:28

all day all night just keep non-stop of

00:12:31

people you know once you know when

00:12:34

Europe woke up and was seeing the story

00:12:36

because like I'm the guardian I'm

00:12:38

thinking yeah because the um all the

00:12:39

media Outlets this Ram what they're like

00:12:41

BBC CNN I mean and for me like I

00:12:44

honestly I didn't really think it would

00:12:47

spread that far I was probably again

00:12:49

naive I thought maybe would we'd hit the

00:12:52

New Zealand Public in a mass and then

00:12:55

maybe on a greater International sense

00:12:57

we might hit the Australian rugby public

00:12:59

I thought that may have you know that

00:13:01

would have been about it but it wasn't

00:13:03

and um and funny enough Rob and Joe they

00:13:07

both knew it was going to go Wildfire

00:13:10

but they didn't tell me that and they

00:13:12

just uh just told me that yeah when I

00:13:14

said oh we might just do New Zealand and

00:13:16

they're like yeah yeah you might no such

00:13:18

thing anymore right yeah yeah they're

00:13:21

like this kid has no idea Campbell

00:13:24

hasn't heard of the internet and well

00:13:26

and the other thing is because I'm I've

00:13:27

always been naturally quite

00:13:29

and reserved person that they probably

00:13:33

knew if they told me that it was going

00:13:35

to go like that that I I'd probably run

00:13:38

for the hills and hide again yeah do you

00:13:40

think um

00:13:41

I mean obviously it's been like a

00:13:43

positive reaction and there's been so

00:13:44

much love and so much support and and

00:13:46

all of that but if they said to you it's

00:13:48

going to be massive it's everyone around

00:13:50

the world's going to know about it and

00:13:51

people are going to reach out from you

00:13:52

that you don't know from a bar or so do

00:13:54

you think you would have maybe not done

00:13:55

it

00:13:56

um no I I joke about that but um I I

00:13:58

still would have um because I was you

00:14:01

know I'd made made my mind up um we had

00:14:04

talked I talked with my partner and

00:14:06

everything and we we were very happy to

00:14:08

do it and um I had the strong belief and

00:14:10

I said to Joe and Rob you know we we

00:14:13

don't want to just open the door and

00:14:15

then walk away and we want to open the

00:14:18

door and stand by it and and that's how

00:14:20

we're going to get real traction to help

00:14:21

people by standing by there and and and

00:14:24

and supporting people as they as as they

00:14:27

need or just yeah getting out there and

00:14:30

did you did you hear from any old

00:14:31

teammates yeah yeah I hear from a lot of

00:14:34

them I mean they all do they know yeah a

00:14:36

lot of them knew so they're all just and

00:14:38

the more the things I heard from them

00:14:40

was message of support and just comments

00:14:43

and you know like they they know how

00:14:45

private I am and things like that and

00:14:47

they just would say like you know well

00:14:49

done it's a really good move you've done

00:14:51

well and um yeah considering how private

00:14:54

you are and yeah so that was that was

00:14:56

nice yeah yeah why why are you so

00:14:59

private is it just how you've been do

00:15:01

you think of changes you got older and

00:15:02

more comfortable in your own skin no I

00:15:05

think I still still am pretty reserved

00:15:08

and pretty private um

00:15:10

um I guess yeah I guess I just grew up

00:15:13

in the you know strange danger situation

00:15:16

Paris has brought me out well to be a

00:15:18

stranger don't you keep away from people

00:15:20

um yeah and I've always been very

00:15:22

reserved and very quiet

00:15:24

um but I think yeah once I get talking

00:15:27

and that I open up a bit more yeah I

00:15:30

know well I've given that you're I'm a

00:15:32

private guy I do appreciate you coming

00:15:33

on the podcast today no no that's quite

00:15:35

all right it's good it's awesome and did

00:15:37

um yeah I know I appreciate it because

00:15:39

like as you said like from doing the TV

00:15:40

thing and from doing things like this oh

00:15:42

by the way I promise that I I said to

00:15:44

myself this morning I said oh maybe a

00:15:46

third maximum will be about the

00:15:47

sexuality because you're so much more

00:15:49

than just that but it's real fascinating

00:15:50

stuff yeah that's all right you just ask

00:15:52

what you like okay good and again if

00:15:54

it's a dumb question tell me it's a dumb

00:15:56

question and we'll move on

00:15:57

um did any other um All Blacks past or

00:15:59

present reach out to tell you that

00:16:01

they're gay or by

00:16:03

um no no no

00:16:05

um because you went to an old boy Square

00:16:07

you went to Linda's Linden College yeah

00:16:09

and so what years were you there was it

00:16:11

in the 90s yeah so I was there

00:16:14

um it must have been 93 to 97 right yeah

00:16:18

exciting to I went to um Palmer's North

00:16:20

boys high uh in the very late 80s and

00:16:24

um I look back now and the homophobia

00:16:27

was rough like every day every day

00:16:29

someone would use the f word or the H

00:16:31

word yeah and I'm sure I look back now

00:16:33

and I'm sure I did it as well because

00:16:35

everyone did it it was just the go-to so

00:16:36

when I was at school there was say a

00:16:38

thousand boys there so

00:16:39

on a conservative side there'd be 50 gay

00:16:42

boys or you know maybe more likely 100

00:16:44

or 150 but not one person would ever

00:16:47

identify as being gay because it was

00:16:49

just like the homophobia was just that

00:16:51

Rife it would be oh yeah it'd be the

00:16:53

worst did you know then like at high

00:16:55

school age or yeah still yeah no no no I

00:16:57

I did I I reckon it was around about

00:17:00

when I was maybe 15. yeah you know like

00:17:04

um

00:17:04

yeah the example that sort of Springs me

00:17:06

here is I I remember friends and that

00:17:08

you know talking about how pretty or how

00:17:11

gorgeous these girls are and and and and

00:17:14

that and then in my head I'll be like

00:17:16

are they but I don't find that you know

00:17:20

yeah Pamela Anderson no no no I don't

00:17:22

see it it's not nice here

00:17:25

who was it for you because my co-host

00:17:28

that I mentioned before Mike pero

00:17:29

Instagram was like a David Hasselhoff

00:17:31

Baywatch thing he was like it was the

00:17:33

dudes in Baywatch that he was like oh

00:17:35

okay something's going on here is there

00:17:38

any like celebrities for you

00:17:41

[Laughter]

00:17:43

Baywatch is probably quite a um

00:17:47

you put it like

00:17:48

one

00:17:49

uh for a gay or Heathrow person to watch

00:17:53

it was quite yeah it's just a very

00:17:54

sexual show yeah anyone knows yeah yeah

00:17:57

exactly yeah I could watch it and take

00:17:59

from what you'd like so so you're um

00:18:01

your

00:18:02

um

00:18:03

who did you come out to first I was at

00:18:05

your parents yeah I gave it to my of

00:18:10

maybe when I was 22 23 around that age I

00:18:14

can't quite remember is that quite old I

00:18:17

feel like it's quite old by maybe

00:18:18

today's oh yeah

00:18:20

oh for today's standards has probably

00:18:22

was quite normal for back then was that

00:18:24

hard plucking up the courage to do that

00:18:27

um well I kind of made a

00:18:29

track in my mind uh decision in my mind

00:18:32

and I had two options I thought was

00:18:36

because I love rugby it was either a one

00:18:40

I stopped playing rugby or two I come

00:18:43

out because I had all this anxiety

00:18:44

anxiety building up and and then I

00:18:47

looked at it and was like well

00:18:49

number ones are gonna going to happen

00:18:51

because I love rugby too much so I'm not

00:18:53

going to stop playing rugby so I guess

00:18:54

I'm just going to have to tell someone

00:18:55

and so that was my thought process and

00:18:58

why I went and I just sat down at dinner

00:19:01

one night and told mum and dad and um it

00:19:04

was

00:19:05

um yeah it was quite I guess surreal

00:19:08

really it was almost like nothing had

00:19:10

happened and like just underwhelming for

00:19:12

you I'm guessing it took a lot of

00:19:13

courage to get to that moment yeah yeah

00:19:15

you were building it up in your mind to

00:19:16

be amazed yes you do you do you just

00:19:17

build up all this stuff which isn't

00:19:19

isn't really real it's this all in your

00:19:22

head and when you know when it comes to

00:19:24

the real stuff you know it's it's just a

00:19:27

bit of a bit of a bit of a letdown and

00:19:30

the best and the best way best way I was

00:19:33

like I just told them we run out of milk

00:19:35

and and go get some and then and I think

00:19:37

mothers always know and Mum was like oh

00:19:40

yeah okay

00:19:41

kind of new and I was like no you didn't

00:19:43

and your dad was he kind of the same oh

00:19:46

yeah yeah it did nothing nothing favors

00:19:48

faces him I'm very lucky that my parents

00:19:49

are very laid back and very very

00:19:52

grounded people and you know they just

00:19:55

carry on yeah oh that's so cool because

00:19:58

I have got some friends that um when

00:20:00

they tell their parents uh especially

00:20:02

one friend of mine that's quite

00:20:03

religious like his parents initial

00:20:04

reaction was like shock and horror and

00:20:06

they wanted to get the Bible to pray for

00:20:08

their son um but they thought out in

00:20:10

time yeah it often it just takes there's

00:20:13

an initial shock period and it takes

00:20:14

time yeah I think I think everyone doing

00:20:16

I think you've got to you know you've

00:20:17

you know when you do something like that

00:20:19

or you go for it I mean you've got to

00:20:21

also be prepared that you've got to give

00:20:23

time to for people to process the the

00:20:26

information you've given them I mean

00:20:27

some people proceeds quickly some people

00:20:30

process slowly and um and I think if

00:20:33

you're if you're aware and you give

00:20:36

people the the time and the space then

00:20:38

you know most people come to The Logical

00:20:40

conclusion

00:20:42

so you may want to tell me to piss off

00:20:45

for this one um your your early sexual

00:20:47

encounters guys or girls

00:20:49

uh

00:20:51

uh girls early

00:20:54

earlier or just like trying to sort of

00:20:55

convince yourself or trying to override

00:20:57

the oh I I guess just just

00:20:59

um just Towing the line really yeah you

00:21:01

know just trying to conform to that

00:21:03

Ideal World yeah yeah

00:21:08

that's a that's a that's a crazy thought

00:21:10

there I know it's a crazy thought

00:21:13

because it's like that that's the norm

00:21:15

so even though you you know in your in

00:21:17

your DNA it's not what you're into but

00:21:19

yeah you want to force yourself to be

00:21:21

into it yeah it's it's an interesting

00:21:23

one and I guess that's it's all apart

00:21:26

of experimenting and finding out and I

00:21:30

guess it's a part of also

00:21:32

um just clarifying and reassuring in

00:21:34

your mind that that it's it's it is what

00:21:38

it is what it is and it's and it's

00:21:39

definitely not that that you like and

00:21:41

it's the other space that you like I

00:21:44

mean yeah I think I think everyone

00:21:46

probably goes through that thought

00:21:48

process and and that that

00:21:50

um exploring you know on on numerous

00:21:53

occasions when they're going through it

00:21:55

yeah and um who did you have to look I'm

00:21:58

get I'm guessing like one of the the

00:22:00

only person I can think of that you'd

00:22:01

have to look up to like um like a hard

00:22:03

man in sport that was gay was Ian

00:22:05

Roberts you know the manly Sea Eagles

00:22:07

league player from the 90s yeah yeah I

00:22:10

mean was there anyone else anyone else

00:22:12

that you could identify with that was

00:22:13

like like gay and successful in a like a

00:22:16

contact sport yeah no no there was

00:22:19

anyone else I remember Gareth Thomas

00:22:22

came out there oh the worst guy rugby

00:22:25

guy but I can't remember when he came

00:22:27

out I can't remember the exact dates on

00:22:29

that but yeah Ian Roberts was it was a

00:22:31

big one

00:22:32

um yeah because he was a he was a he was

00:22:34

hard man no one he was uncompromising

00:22:36

yeah he was a badass yeah yeah

00:22:40

um so your your partner you've been with

00:22:42

for like a year and a half he's um

00:22:43

sitting in the other room just just

00:22:44

watching this

00:22:45

um how did you guys meet

00:22:48

um oh we met

00:22:49

a few years a few years ago

00:22:53

um at a bar in um in Cambridge

00:22:57

um and then we've been sort of friends

00:23:00

ever since

00:23:02

um and we've both lived overseas and um

00:23:05

you know we've lived overseas separately

00:23:07

in separate lives and and then and then

00:23:09

um both have come back and yeah that's

00:23:12

been history now both come back and sort

00:23:15

of picked things up really yeah it's

00:23:18

fantastic was was he part of the cat

00:23:19

like the obviously you discussed him you

00:23:21

know doing the seven sharp thing and

00:23:23

yeah yeah no no yeah he was a big

00:23:25

supportive yeah and and we talked about

00:23:28

that and talked about how we'd pursue it

00:23:30

and and um yeah and obviously that was a

00:23:32

part that we'd try and you know keep

00:23:35

private and and because you've got to

00:23:37

have some things private in this world

00:23:38

and that so yeah so but he's been really

00:23:40

supportive and um couldn't ask couldn't

00:23:42

ask you know anything more from from

00:23:44

someone yeah did you ever dabble in the

00:23:46

apps you ever go on Grindr or anything

00:23:48

like that I I think every

00:23:52

is

00:23:54

just one of these things

00:23:55

um yeah it's a it's an interesting app

00:23:58

did you ever like a type you know you

00:24:01

can they have like a list a selection

00:24:03

and you can take your type there's like

00:24:05

um beer twink discreet leather rugged

00:24:09

pause what's a pause do you know what a

00:24:10

pause is

00:24:13

but did you ever type

00:24:16

um I don't know

00:24:18

um I never I don't think you well

00:24:20

probably when I dabbled in was a few

00:24:22

years ago and I don't know if you could

00:24:24

I didn't have that yeah well maybe you

00:24:27

had to pay for that yeah maybe I'm on

00:24:30

premium yeah

00:24:31

all right well I have a very specific I

00:24:34

I've um I I I I think I'm 100

00:24:37

heterosexual but that was until

00:24:39

um uh winter of 2004 when um Dan Carter

00:24:42

did the jockey campaign

00:24:44

then I had some questions about my own

00:24:46

sexuality

00:24:48

um funny story about grinder is that um

00:24:51

I played for um in France I played for

00:24:54

uh Brits Barrett's Olympic the the bio

00:24:57

the the team in the top 14 and um two

00:25:01

years ago I think it's two years ago

00:25:03

they got a new um a New Jersey and short

00:25:06

sponsor and it's grinder so it's grinder

00:25:09

on their shorts and grinder on their

00:25:11

Jersey and

00:25:15

um and I got these um and I got Texas

00:25:18

from my friends that I played with and

00:25:20

veritz and the Remy mates like saying

00:25:22

what have you done

00:25:24

this was like a couple of years ago like

00:25:26

antiquesing like man you you'd have

00:25:29

loved to be there now you would have got

00:25:30

a free script and all this

00:25:32

premium subscription yes so um yeah uh

00:25:37

it's quite yeah it was quite funny see

00:25:39

that especially it's plastered on the

00:25:41

back of their shorts grinder oh how good

00:25:43

yo that's better than more FM on the on

00:25:45

the Crusaders shorts isn't it

00:25:48

um let's let's talk about your rugby

00:25:50

career so we were you like naturally

00:25:52

good or did you just work really hard

00:25:56

um I think it was probably it's probably

00:25:58

a combination of both but more so

00:26:00

probably more hard work really I mean

00:26:03

because I wasn't a big guy so I had to

00:26:06

um you know work hard to be big

00:26:09

um I wasn't wasn't the most skilled

00:26:11

person on the field so I kind of had to

00:26:14

find a position that that at the time

00:26:16

wasn't as

00:26:18

skill based as in

00:26:20

um

00:26:21

um you know with hand-eye coordination

00:26:23

but was more technical based and I found

00:26:27

I was able to um pick up technique and

00:26:29

and learn technical based things a lot

00:26:32

easier and and be able to strengthen my

00:26:35

game through scrummaging and things like

00:26:37

that that's that's interesting so are

00:26:39

you sort of saying you just had this um

00:26:41

like red hot burning desire to be a

00:26:42

really good rugby player and you ideally

00:26:45

you would have been like a I don't know

00:26:47

like a number 10 or something but you

00:26:49

didn't have the skill so you just made

00:26:50

yourself big so you could get in the

00:26:51

team somehow

00:26:54

basically I just had this um desire and

00:26:58

um people knew that like coaches knew

00:27:01

that all I wanted to do and and was play

00:27:03

the game my parents knew and like for

00:27:05

example my dad would um if I didn't get

00:27:08

a when I was younger if I if our games

00:27:11

were called off because of the rain or

00:27:13

something like that I was just you know

00:27:15

the worst kid to have in the house like

00:27:18

it's just denied me I'd hate to be

00:27:20

around me and so my dad would um he was

00:27:23

obviously frustrated and angry and was

00:27:24

like I've got to get this kid out of the

00:27:26

house and he would ring around friends

00:27:28

and other grades higher and say oh he

00:27:32

gone so-and-so do you need a player do

00:27:35

you need an extra one oh yeah you know

00:27:37

we could yep okay I'll bring him down

00:27:39

straight away and then he games on the

00:27:41

weekend when

00:27:44

they were not lucky

00:27:45

in um with the uh with the the um the

00:27:50

changing of position he's played number

00:27:52

eight and then first the thing coach at

00:27:55

linderson Grant Gilbert

00:27:57

and a polite way said that you know

00:27:58

you're not going to be tall enough and

00:28:00

you're probably not going to be big

00:28:01

enough to play number eight but and he

00:28:03

said and you you need a little bit of

00:28:05

work on your skills but basically if I

00:28:08

wasn't skillful enough to play number

00:28:09

eight he said um how about you try the

00:28:12

front row and uh he said that would be

00:28:14

probably something you'd enjoy and

00:28:16

handed me a a magazine that had done a

00:28:19

feature article on the prop Jason

00:28:21

Leonard who was a English prop and um he

00:28:25

was highly highly regarded as one of you

00:28:28

know one of the best props in the

00:28:29

business at the time and he had a big

00:28:32

article and and all these hints and

00:28:34

techniques and all that and so I read

00:28:36

that kind of back said yeah okay I'm

00:28:37

gonna do that and then just pursued it

00:28:40

that is amazing it's an it's an unsexy

00:28:43

position isn't it you do all you do all

00:28:46

the work and get zero Glory

00:28:48

it is it's a horrible horrible job being

00:28:52

a prop that's an amazing God you and me

00:28:54

are our chartered paths were very

00:28:56

different um uh I am I was made to play

00:29:00

like um Barefoot rugby when I was a kid

00:29:02

by my parents and I would just like we

00:29:05

were a religious family

00:29:06

um and I would like pray to Jesus on

00:29:08

Sunday morning that that they would they

00:29:11

can't we'd listen to the cancellations

00:29:12

on the radio and I'd pray that it'd be

00:29:13

canceled so I could stay at home in

00:29:14

front of a guest eater and watch what

00:29:16

now

00:29:21

you know I just I I hated it I had

00:29:23

Pockets with shorts on mum the coach got

00:29:25

mum to sew them up because I was so cold

00:29:27

I'd have my hands on my pockets you and

00:29:29

me very very different upbringings okay

00:29:32

so so we was at Hawke's Bay Hawke's Bay

00:29:34

you grew up

00:29:35

waipukurau out in the country

00:29:38

um once did so it was about half an hour

00:29:40

out of waipuk right did you know did you

00:29:42

know Israel dag and um

00:29:45

um is that Guilford I think he was from

00:29:46

that area as well yeah about the same

00:29:48

age as you no no they're a little bit

00:29:49

older but I I did know Israel a little

00:29:53

bit because he went to the same school

00:29:55

again to Linda's fun the same so we sort

00:29:57

of

00:29:58

um I he was well I was well out of

00:30:01

school by then but we sort of crossed

00:30:03

paths on the few things in there and uh

00:30:04

yeah so um and Zach

00:30:07

um I he was coming into the um Crusaders

00:30:10

in Canterbury as a time I was just sort

00:30:12

of leaving so I said okay now I'm

00:30:15

through Hawke's Bay connections or

00:30:16

anything no no so so when did you start

00:30:18

like realizing you were really good and

00:30:20

the prop thing was going to work for you

00:30:23

um yeah that's a good question I'm not

00:30:25

too sure it's probably

00:30:29

um it was probably like when I displayed

00:30:32

the first of Dean and at school and then

00:30:36

made a few teams

00:30:37

and um yeah I was making rip teams as a

00:30:41

prop

00:30:42

um so yeah I sort of realizing ah yeah

00:30:45

okay so this is this is working out

00:30:48

um

00:30:49

but yeah yes that would have been you

00:30:51

know maybe at school and that that I

00:30:52

sort of thought this was going to

00:30:55

work out but but you know to be honest

00:30:57

like even if I didn't make teams I still

00:30:59

would have kept pursuing it because I

00:31:02

just had this I guess you call it a

00:31:04

pig-headed attitude that um I'm gonna

00:31:07

make this work no matter what yeah

00:31:09

that's amazing so

00:31:12

um I guess you love rugby that much even

00:31:15

if you couldn't make it to the

00:31:16

professional level you would have kept

00:31:17

playing it but what would you been do

00:31:19

what would you have been doing what was

00:31:20

Plan B

00:31:22

um

00:31:23

and so I didn't make rugby well I went

00:31:25

down I studied at Lincoln University

00:31:28

um and I did a b com and valuation and

00:31:30

Property Management you are way too

00:31:33

smart to be a problem

00:31:34

all parts of snow

00:31:37

yeah oh yeah you've got to defend your

00:31:40

type yeah yeah

00:31:42

um and then so I suppose I would be

00:31:44

pursuing would have pursued that a lot

00:31:46

more and um if not that then maybe

00:31:50

um uh sit on a previous podcast and

00:31:53

maybe I'd be working on some fishing

00:31:55

charters doing some fishing charters

00:31:57

taking people deep sea fishing sounds

00:31:58

like a pretty good job that doesn't

00:32:00

sound like a bad job isn't that what Cal

00:32:01

heyman's doing could be yeah he's doing

00:32:04

something like that

00:32:05

um all right so so you when did you so

00:32:07

um you're in the Crusaders first was

00:32:09

that the first what was the case

00:32:11

yeah so that was there oh so that was

00:32:14

when you were still studying at Lincoln

00:32:15

uh yeah I was coming to the end of my uh

00:32:18

my degree it was around I was 21 so I

00:32:21

was just finishing up maybe graduating

00:32:23

yeah maybe maybe half a year or

00:32:25

something to fix up yeah so what year

00:32:27

was what year was that that you first

00:32:28

made Canterbury uh 21 or 22 around there

00:32:32

uh no no 2001 and 2002 so okay so who

00:32:36

who was the coach and who are you

00:32:38

playing was it Robbie Dean's no

00:32:40

um so the first coach of Canterbury was

00:32:47

was I think it was Aussie McLean

00:32:50

and I think in mallard

00:32:53

and then also I think Rob Penny I can't

00:32:57

remember it was a combination of those

00:32:59

three it was definitely Rob penny for

00:33:01

the remainder of my time with Canterbury

00:33:03

and then with the Crusaders was

00:33:07

um Robbie Dean's

00:33:08

and um and that you was I think it was

00:33:12

Don Hayes right and then Don Hayes

00:33:16

moved on and then Vern Cotter came in

00:33:20

and was there for the three or four

00:33:22

years and then I think Mark Hammett was

00:33:25

my last year and Robbie Deans was the

00:33:27

constant

00:33:28

yeah how was that how influential was he

00:33:30

on your career he was awesome like

00:33:32

Robbie's a

00:33:34

awesome coach he has he had an amazing

00:33:36

ability of bringing a team together like

00:33:38

creating a culture theming of a team and

00:33:41

just getting everyone on the same page

00:33:43

and everyone working towards the same

00:33:45

goal

00:33:46

um so yeah no he's he was yeah he was

00:33:49

incredible why why um what happened with

00:33:51

him in Australia why why did he suck so

00:33:54

much over there was that intentional in

00:33:56

his part do you think maybe maybe it was

00:33:58

a teacher

00:33:59

yeah he's just a loyal guy

00:34:02

um no I I don't I don't know and all I

00:34:07

can

00:34:07

look at is that it

00:34:10

was a combination because if you always

00:34:11

look at the Australian super teams their

00:34:14

super teams actually do quite well and

00:34:16

they've got really good players but for

00:34:18

some reason when you put them all

00:34:20

together in the Australian team they

00:34:22

they just don't it doesn't seem like

00:34:25

they gel together very well not as

00:34:27

cohesive yeah which is it's kind of

00:34:29

bizarre I

00:34:30

don't know yeah

00:34:33

yeah tough tough tough time for Robbie

00:34:35

and a tough gig to do but you know oh

00:34:38

and I remember at the time it was um the

00:34:40

media made it out to be this like a huge

00:34:42

Grudge Match like um Ted versus Robbie

00:34:44

didn't they it was like one coach

00:34:46

against the other yeah which must have

00:34:47

been incredibly stressful for both of

00:34:49

them oh exactly I mean his you know

00:34:51

Robbie pursuing a

00:34:58

afternoon it wasn't given the

00:35:01

opportunity with the All Blacks so we

00:35:03

took another International job you know

00:35:04

which is you know everyone in their in

00:35:07

their own Fields always want to pursue

00:35:09

higher honors and pursue you know more

00:35:11

challenges

00:35:12

um so yeah you just have to let people

00:35:15

do that it's like players when they go

00:35:16

overseas they more or less want to go

00:35:19

because they um you know need a new

00:35:21

challenge neither your refreshing start

00:35:23

or you know or they want one to um you

00:35:26

know just test test the waters in

00:35:29

another competition so did you play did

00:35:32

you play with Scott razor Robertson was

00:35:34

it did your careers overlap or was he

00:35:35

before yeah

00:35:36

left and out in my in his last year or

00:35:41

two years and then and when I was

00:35:43

starting yeah right how was he what was

00:35:46

he like because you see him now as a

00:35:47

coach and that I know the break dancing

00:35:49

thing he keeps to a minimum now and I

00:35:51

really hope he doesn't lose that when he

00:35:53

you know it's the the all black coach

00:35:55

because I think it's I think it's

00:35:56

wonderful and beautiful I know there's

00:35:57

some old purists that you'll hear on

00:35:59

TalkBack that you know say that he's not

00:36:01

fit to be a coach for that reason which

00:36:02

is just dumb yeah so I can't imagine how

00:36:05

much fun he was as a player yeah no he

00:36:07

was a great guy like he's all that

00:36:08

energy that you see with him um with his

00:36:12

team and that you know as a player you

00:36:14

could probably times that by 20 when he

00:36:17

was a player he'd just so much energy

00:36:18

and so much you know life about him and

00:36:21

just so positive

00:36:23

um it's just yeah it's just incredible

00:36:25

and I I think it's a great opportunity

00:36:27

and it's a great way that maybe New

00:36:31

Zealand Rugby and rugby public we can we

00:36:34

can you know maybe put some life into

00:36:37

the press press conferences after the

00:36:39

games unique character isn't it and um

00:36:42

and the other thing is like I'm I'm

00:36:43

actually really happy for Scott and um

00:36:45

because the other thing is is how hard

00:36:48

he has worked to get where he has like I

00:36:51

don't think many people know like he

00:36:52

would he would be he coached some of the

00:36:55

Rugby Club in um Christchurch for many

00:36:58

years and he just learned his at the

00:37:00

trade of coaching and turned up and

00:37:02

helped schools and he and he um helped

00:37:05

the Canterbury team with tackling and

00:37:07

that all in positions that you know

00:37:09

weren't paid he was just giving up his

00:37:11

time to just just perfect his skill and

00:37:13

his ability and to pursue a you know a

00:37:16

dream that he wanted was to you know be

00:37:18

a professional coach and to be coaching

00:37:20

the Crusaders and and where he is now so

00:37:23

you know it's it's it's just awesome to

00:37:26

see his

00:37:27

dream and goals through hard work he's

00:37:29

achieved it do you have any um old

00:37:32

memories about him that you're able to

00:37:33

share is there anything that Springs to

00:37:35

mind no no you're closing ranks I reckon

00:37:38

you've got something you're just not

00:37:40

sharing it no I don't have anything

00:37:43

you've always got to be careful when you

00:37:45

share things because others have

00:37:46

information oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it's

00:37:49

an exchange

00:37:51

okay so you so you're um then separate

00:37:54

you're in Canterbury and then the super

00:37:55

broke how many Super Rugby titles did

00:37:57

you win uh three right yeah incredible

00:38:01

hmm yeah what's that like winning your

00:38:04

first Super Rugby title yeah it's pretty

00:38:05

good it's pretty cool like um yeah it's

00:38:10

it's an awesome feeling

00:38:12

um yeah especially because you're you

00:38:13

know you're doing something that all

00:38:14

your teammates and you have all brought

00:38:16

into you've all bought into the same

00:38:18

idea you know we've all been on the same

00:38:20

path the same you know the same road

00:38:22

you've gone through all the strain same

00:38:23

struggles you know the pre-season the

00:38:26

you know the uh the trainings you know

00:38:29

everything you've experienced highs and

00:38:31

lows and then you finally come out on

00:38:32

top so um yeah it's really awesome yeah

00:38:36

because your your career has overlapped

00:38:38

with some of the best New Zealand Rugby

00:38:40

players that we've we've ever seen you

00:38:42

played with Dan and Richie as well yeah

00:38:43

yeah no I was very lucky to um play with

00:38:46

so many good players and so many

00:38:48

skillful players and that's it's funny

00:38:49

because you play with good players and

00:38:52

they you know they make you look good

00:38:55

yeah so so you that must have been early

00:38:57

in Rich's career or sort of in the

00:38:59

middle of his career he's in the same

00:39:00

like Richie he was

00:39:02

you know around the same age so it was

00:39:04

um yeah around the same age we played

00:39:06

age grade together as well under 19s and

00:39:09

Colts and he's in under 21s as well so

00:39:12

um yeah all in the same same age group

00:39:14

I'm not even going to ask you if you've

00:39:15

got any Richie stories because

00:39:17

I I think I saw this and maybe this was

00:39:20

in his movie Chasing great or maybe it

00:39:22

was in the Dan Carter movie but Dan was

00:39:25

then said somewhere on the record that

00:39:26

the only conversations he ever had with

00:39:28

Richie when they were in the All Blacks

00:39:30

together were rugby related he was like

00:39:33

that hyper fixated on his job as Captain

00:39:35

and the job in hand was that your

00:39:38

experience with Richie I yeah no he was

00:39:40

um yeah he's super focused and and you

00:39:42

know and and such a role model such a

00:39:46

leader that um you can only but you only

00:39:49

you only can be in inspired and

00:39:51

motivated by him

00:39:53

um yeah so yeah he's a really amazing

00:39:56

guy

00:39:57

yeah incredible one of the best right

00:39:59

yeah and in terms of like how I'm

00:40:00

staying fit after Korea like you and him

00:40:03

are probably two of the fittest right in

00:40:05

terms of like like trimming down and uh

00:40:07

looking like Shadows of your former self

00:40:10

um yeah no I I I'd say he'd be a lot

00:40:12

fitter than me he's out doing adventure

00:40:14

running and racing and all that um you

00:40:16

know I don't I don't tend to get out and

00:40:18

do that too much what do you do these

00:40:20

days what are you doing to keep in shape

00:40:21

looks like you hit the gym a little bit

00:40:22

I do yeah a little bit of gym

00:40:25

um yeah that's that's that's really

00:40:27

about it and then um just don't eat so

00:40:30

much

00:40:32

to be a problem you have to eat a lot of

00:40:34

food yeah yeah

00:40:36

um well especially for me it was an

00:40:37

incredible amount of food like I used to

00:40:40

have to sit in the

00:40:41

um an alarm at midnight and have a and

00:40:44

drink a protein shake in the you know in

00:40:46

the middle of the night just to try and

00:40:48

keep the weight we're in like on on game

00:40:49

week or just all every day

00:40:51

like

00:40:53

actually yeah I didn't I didn't go out

00:40:57

to the kitchen and use the blender and

00:40:59

blend it up and wake up the whole house

00:41:00

oh you had it made and sitting next to

00:41:03

the bed or yeah you still take protein

00:41:05

now uh yeah a little bit just after

00:41:07

German there but uh not too much I've

00:41:09

sort of drifted away from eating so much

00:41:12

it's uh yeah it's been quite relaxing

00:41:14

not even to uh

00:41:16

shove food into your mouth every two

00:41:18

hours oh I bet I'm not sure what you

00:41:20

take now but Radix nutrition do some of

00:41:23

the best proteins on the on the market

00:41:24

and I highly swear by the banana and the

00:41:27

coconut flavor in particular I'll tell

00:41:28

you what we'll get you some thank you

00:41:30

thank you they sponsored the podcast so

00:41:32

yeah so what does an average day look

00:41:34

like when you're when you're a prop in

00:41:35

terms of diet so protein shake at

00:41:37

midnight well

00:41:39

we probably started

00:41:41

yeah the breakfast I used to start with

00:41:44

um oatmeal porridge

00:41:46

and two boiled eggs

00:41:49

and a protein shake and then go after

00:41:52

training then at training we've got

00:41:54

snacks throughout the day throughout the

00:41:57

training morning so you've got you

00:41:58

probably have another protein shake in

00:42:01

there as well plus plus

00:42:03

um some tuna and crackers I think is

00:42:05

always there and then

00:42:09

um

00:42:10

via lunch

00:42:13

um there'll be chicken or some sort of

00:42:15

protein made to end with some carbs and

00:42:18

then there'd probably be another Shake

00:42:19

just to add another level to it and then

00:42:23

um

00:42:24

another

00:42:26

snack in the afternoon

00:42:28

and then dinner

00:42:31

God I'm exhausted I feel sick just

00:42:34

hearing another snack before bed and be

00:42:37

in bed and then wake up and have a

00:42:39

protein shake oh my God that's awful so

00:42:42

so who are you flirting with at the time

00:42:44

uh Karen Reid mentioned you were

00:42:45

fighting with Scott

00:42:46

um Scott Hamilton yeah so that would

00:42:48

have been

00:42:51

2002 it was Scott Hamilton and um big uh

00:42:55

Kevin O'Neill Kevin O'Neill was a

00:42:57

crusader lock and and all black

00:43:00

um yeah we used the NutriBullet must

00:43:02

have been getting a workout in that

00:43:04

plant

00:43:05

yeah yeah it was amazing okay and then

00:43:09

um so

00:43:10

um how many did we decide three three

00:43:12

Super Rugby titles which is phenomenal

00:43:14

and then um the all black career all

00:43:16

black number 1056 yeah and again as I

00:43:20

said before when I went to boys High um

00:43:22

about a thousand boys there

00:43:24

apparently zero boys were gay at that

00:43:27

time so the All Blacks as well you'd

00:43:28

have to assume out of you know your the

00:43:31

first to come out openly as gay at

00:43:33

number 1056 but there must have been

00:43:34

many many more before then but for

00:43:37

whatever reason well yeah but the time

00:43:39

wasn't right statistics are an

00:43:40

interesting thing but you know you can't

00:43:43

hang your hat on them I mean yeah it

00:43:45

could have been a you know you could I

00:43:46

could it might not have been one you

00:43:49

know they might not they might not keep

00:43:51

tomorrow not continued playing the sport

00:43:53

or something like that yeah that's true

00:43:54

you know reality

00:43:57

um yeah it could be only one but um

00:43:59

as you said statistically speaking not

00:44:02

true it might be me yeah and so um do

00:44:06

you remember that moment like we are you

00:44:07

in the all black frame like hey do you

00:44:10

feel like you're a you're a shot when

00:44:12

this election's announced how does that

00:44:13

happen what's that moment must be a

00:44:14

bloody special moment yeah yeah it was

00:44:16

so it was in Napier and we just um done

00:44:19

the all black trial you know I think it

00:44:21

was the possible exist the probables

00:44:22

that's right back in the day yeah so

00:44:25

that was back in 2005

00:44:28

and we'd done the trial match I remember

00:44:30

coming off the the game thinking oh yeah

00:44:32

no I ran around had a I thought I'd had

00:44:35

a pretty good game and um who were you

00:44:39

marking who was your opposite

00:44:41

I was like giving me a lovely maybe no I

00:44:44

would keep no I think Kevin no Kevin was

00:44:46

in my in my team he was the hooker for

00:44:48

the team and I was rooming with Kevin

00:44:50

actually

00:44:52

yeah and yeah I've roomed with them that

00:44:54

um that whole week I think and then I

00:44:58

think

00:44:59

so it might have been Carl Hof came on

00:45:01

and said I can't remember who was

00:45:03

and it's all quite a blur but um the um

00:45:07

the naming was um after after the game

00:45:10

all the players are in the from both

00:45:12

teams are in a room and the

00:45:15

um they name the team the all black

00:45:18

Squad to the players oh immediately

00:45:21

afterwards yeah it was like three out of

00:45:23

two hours like you had something to eat

00:45:25

and you went back to hotels or all the

00:45:27

air and they were all gathered and then

00:45:28

they just named the team it must be

00:45:29

around about I don't know 11 and a half

00:45:31

past 11 at night and they said look this

00:45:34

is you know this Squad and these are the

00:45:36

people who are going to Auckland for the

00:45:38

to prepare the rest you will be going to

00:45:41

your your home destinations it's like an

00:45:44

episode of X Factor isn't it yeah yeah

00:45:45

it is and um and you know we're not

00:45:49

publicly announcing it until tomorrow so

00:45:51

don't say the media or anyone but you

00:45:53

can tell your loved ones and that so

00:45:54

yeah that was how that happened was that

00:45:57

sort of pre-social must have been

00:45:58

pre-social media I feel like they

00:45:59

wouldn't have that sort of level of

00:46:00

trust now no no way yeah there's no one

00:46:02

you know no one's Snapchatting at all

00:46:05

posting it on Instagram well so okay so

00:46:08

you find out there must be an exciting

00:46:09

moment and then

00:46:11

um what happened who do you tell who are

00:46:12

your loved ones that you tell well

00:46:14

because it was a Napier

00:46:16

um obviously my parents were because I

00:46:18

came from that my parents are there so I

00:46:19

I went and um went around to mum and

00:46:22

Dad's and and I and I told told them and

00:46:25

again it was just um it was almost like

00:46:28

I told them we'd uh run out of milk it

00:46:31

was just I just underwhelming again oh

00:46:33

my God what gets those people excited

00:46:37

uh yeah it was yeah mum was probably

00:46:40

more happier than dead and dead mum gave

00:46:43

me a you know a hug and and Dad

00:46:45

um famously he

00:46:47

um carried on talking about

00:46:50

um that I remember the topic because he

00:46:52

carried on talking about the the reason

00:46:53

why the Ducks aren't breeding down by

00:46:55

the by the ponds is because all these

00:46:58

people keep feeding them bread and and

00:47:00

Mum was like oh you know your son just

00:47:03

your son's just made you all blend it

00:47:04

was like yes yes

00:47:06

it's amazing as you did it is he a

00:47:10

farmer yeah okay it sounds like a farmer

00:47:12

it's hard to get them I'm impressed

00:47:13

about anything oh yeah I know he wasn't

00:47:15

he was impressed right and then but

00:47:18

actually when I talk about this to them

00:47:20

they they they they they claim that that

00:47:23

wasn't how it happened like no we heard

00:47:25

you we you know it was not like that we

00:47:28

were excited I was like oh yeah yeah

00:47:29

just like how I told you I was gay no we

00:47:33

were like that how many um you're you're

00:47:36

one of how many kids I've got two older

00:47:38

brothers and uh ones right and yet have

00:47:41

you seen your parents get like emotional

00:47:42

about in it like when your sister got

00:47:45

married I'm assuming she's got married

00:47:46

does your dad cry or does he have you

00:47:49

ever seen him show emotion

00:47:52

um but I think guys like like all I'm

00:47:53

basing this on is my uncle John who's a

00:47:55

Dairy Farmer like he was very very stoic

00:47:57

like the hardest man you could ever meet

00:47:59

but as he got older he got soft around

00:48:01

the edges and shows a bit of

00:48:02

vulnerability now oh yeah no no he's old

00:48:05

he's he's definitely shows a bit of

00:48:07

emotion now but when was the last time

00:48:08

he told you he loves you as an emotional

00:48:11

guy like that oh yeah

00:48:13

yeah but that even that um I mean

00:48:16

because we're a family we didn't really

00:48:17

say that and we always knew you know it

00:48:20

was always unspoken it was unspoken you

00:48:22

didn't have to but then and then um but

00:48:24

I think yeah mum always wanted us to say

00:48:27

it and then um one day I think

00:48:29

dad said it and then I said it back and

00:48:32

then I was like oh finally and I said

00:48:33

well Dad said

00:48:35

he said it first yeah maybe

00:48:40

is

00:48:47

[Laughter]

00:49:04

actions speak louder than words as they

00:49:06

say okay so so you make the All Blacks

00:49:09

um is your first test against uh Fiji or

00:49:11

the Lions yeah I've got a question to

00:49:13

ask you so you can't you you didn't

00:49:15

start you came on yes late in the game

00:49:17

how many minutes did you play

00:49:19

I think it came on for about

00:49:21

30 minutes okay all right okay so you

00:49:24

played almost half the game the All

00:49:26

Blacks won that game 91-0 how did you

00:49:28

manage to not score a try well I think

00:49:31

this comes back in the position I was

00:49:32

playing in a prop and uh the Greek some

00:49:34

of them and Kevin me allow me they

00:49:36

scored in that game yeah yeah yeah they

00:49:38

yeah they were gifted those tries

00:49:41

I think they helped set them up yeah so

00:49:44

what's um what's that like your first

00:49:46

all black game um

00:49:47

is your stomach churning are you like

00:49:50

yeah no it's um all I can sum it up is

00:49:53

this with what you know just pure

00:49:55

excitement for me it was just pure

00:49:56

excitement just you know here here was

00:49:58

the um the the um the black Jersey that

00:50:02

I'd um being wanting and striving for

00:50:05

for so long was just in my hands finally

00:50:07

in my hands you know and and as this

00:50:10

absolute excitement what's what's that

00:50:12

ritual you get the Jersey is it the day

00:50:15

before the morning of no I this one was

00:50:18

it was um hanging up in your locker as

00:50:21

you come in to the um stadium so when

00:50:24

you come into the stadium you see your

00:50:25

locker your um your number where you sit

00:50:28

and it's it's there yeah

00:50:31

and when you when you're not starting do

00:50:33

you do you get to go out and you get to

00:50:35

go and Sing the anthem you don't do the

00:50:36

Haka though

00:50:42

and put your tracksuit back on and sit

00:50:44

down are you and hindsight are you happy

00:50:46

with your hacker performance

00:50:48

um room for improvement yeah there's

00:50:50

always room through but it's got to be

00:50:52

the scariest thing like Rugby's rugby is

00:50:55

what you do and it's an instinct thing

00:50:56

right and you you've earned that spot

00:50:58

and you've earned the Jersey but then

00:51:00

you have to learn the Haka and I'm

00:51:01

guessing that doesn't necessarily come

00:51:03

naturally yeah well it's

00:51:07

knows the Haka and I did know

00:51:11

committee but for for the life of me and

00:51:15

why it had to be when I made the All

00:51:17

Blacks they decided to bring in the new

00:51:18

hacker and they had to learn a whole new

00:51:20

one so and I'm you know dancing in

00:51:24

coordination is not my best thing any

00:51:26

you know any given moment and so I had

00:51:29

my head right okay I've got comedy down

00:51:31

so we should be able to get through this

00:51:34

and next minute they go oh we're gonna

00:51:35

you learn a new one the cup of the name

00:51:39

of it is but we're going to do the new

00:51:41

Haka and we're all going to learn it and

00:51:42

I was just like oh no another thing to

00:51:46

learn any dance moves how am I gonna

00:51:48

learn this I'm watching it yeah they

00:51:50

hide you in the back somewhere yeah they

00:51:52

did you know we had these um Haka um

00:51:56

Haka trainings in there in the evenings

00:51:58

and that and then you know the not so

00:52:01

good kids had to stay behind and do

00:52:03

extras and then the not so goods from

00:52:05

that group had to do extras and then

00:52:07

size yeah I was running into the

00:52:09

midnight still learning

00:52:11

where is your roommate can you remember

00:52:12

who your roommate was for that Festival

00:52:14

that game

00:52:15

um yeah it was um Anton Oliver all right

00:52:18

right yeah well what and what are your

00:52:21

Recollections and memories from that

00:52:22

first sort of all black camper and that

00:52:24

first game

00:52:26

um

00:52:26

just yeah I was just excitement I mean

00:52:29

um it was just one of the most you know

00:52:32

intense intense trainings this is how

00:52:34

how intense training was like it would

00:52:37

go for like 40 minutes just so sharp

00:52:40

fast bang boom done on the bus you know

00:52:44

and just the the pressure not the

00:52:47

pressure but just the desire by everyone

00:52:49

to actually fine-tune their skills and

00:52:51

their ability so so they don't let the

00:52:54

team down or don't let your teammates

00:52:55

down yeah yeah it's just it's pretty

00:52:58

special yeah that's amazing who was

00:52:59

coach at the time was that Wayne Smith

00:53:01

no no uh Wayne Smith was here uh it was

00:53:04

um Graeme Henry and Wayne Smith Graham

00:53:06

Henry Steve Hansen right wow wow oh yeah

00:53:09

three of the goats yeah yeah

00:53:11

unbelievable and so it's okay so so back

00:53:15

then to do um do they know about your

00:53:17

sexuality do all the players know is it

00:53:19

like the an elephant in the room like

00:53:21

Looking Back Now is an elf in the room

00:53:22

sort of thing or does everyone know and

00:53:23

it's just unspoken yeah a few people

00:53:25

knew

00:53:26

um not probably not everyone yeah you

00:53:28

just confide in some people yeah just

00:53:30

confined some people and then people

00:53:31

just

00:53:32

keep private and then and to be honest

00:53:34

like that that environment just so

00:53:37

focused on the upcoming game and that

00:53:41

there's there's no time to think about

00:53:44

anything else it's just full-on rugby

00:53:48

which is awesome you know but um yeah

00:53:50

but there's just absolutely no time to

00:53:52

to dwell or you know you worry about

00:53:55

that yeah come on good for you yeah

00:53:57

learn the [ __ ] hacker yeah

00:54:01

Bingo don't even worry about that yeah

00:54:03

um you can so okay so you can find in

00:54:06

some people and they're fine with it

00:54:07

does

00:54:09

does does that not give you like the

00:54:11

comfort and security to think okay if I

00:54:13

if I come out now publicly it'll you

00:54:15

know everyone's going to be okay with it

00:54:17

no

00:54:18

um no not not for me because I was still

00:54:27

at the time

00:54:28

um and I still was uneasy about it you

00:54:32

know in my own self like I still wasn't

00:54:34

100

00:54:35

you know happy with me as that person so

00:54:40

to come out publicly would have been a

00:54:42

massive step that I probably wouldn't

00:54:46

have been able to do at the time did it

00:54:49

um take its toll on your mental health

00:54:50

over the years like hang on to the

00:54:52

secret or not really I touched upon

00:54:55

therapy before and you said you've never

00:54:56

done any therapy yeah no I don't think

00:54:59

it it did I I I kind of turned it into

00:55:03

more of a driving force

00:55:05

and the way that um if I had a bad game

00:55:09

I'd blame it on my gay side or it's

00:55:13

because I was gay I'd blame it that and

00:55:15

that would you know motivate me to train

00:55:17

harder so in a real strange sense it

00:55:19

became like a driving force behind me to

00:55:23

to um to achieve what I what I what I

00:55:26

wanted but as you all know that's that's

00:55:29

unhealthy yeah it's really unhealthy and

00:55:31

it's never going to end well you know

00:55:33

yeah it's like like running away from it

00:55:35

in a way yeah yeah so um so there's that

00:55:37

and that that would be why I decided to

00:55:42

um you know come out to a few people so

00:55:43

I could get that off and and clear that

00:55:45

up and move forward with it which is um

00:55:49

has been better yeah awesome because

00:55:51

there's a lot better ways to motivate

00:55:54

yourself

00:55:56

whatever works

00:55:58

no I know you're a self-loading not the

00:56:02

best way isn't it Richie didn't get to

00:56:03

140 I test myself loathing

00:56:06

um oh yes I think you have two other

00:56:07

tests against um the the British um uh

00:56:10

Alliance um so I'm Beijing in your and

00:56:13

you're all black career three games yeah

00:56:15

yeah what are you what are your

00:56:16

collections of those games

00:56:17

um the British and Iris Lions was

00:56:19

incredible like just the whole um

00:56:20

campaign was amazing

00:56:23

um is that when um Johnny Wilkinson was

00:56:25

in the tech what could someone's on the

00:56:26

table was like the best best player in

00:56:27

the world at the time yeah

00:56:31

and and it was the it was

00:56:34

it was I guess the litmus test for the

00:56:36

um New Zealand for hosting the World Cup

00:56:39

was to be able to see if we could handle

00:56:41

the infrastructures and systems and our

00:56:44

our stadiums could handle you know the

00:56:46

British and Irish lines would then that

00:56:48

you know help us to host the World Cup

00:56:51

yeah so it was it was it was really

00:56:53

really awesome like and the people that

00:56:55

came out from you know the United

00:56:57

Kingdom was incredible and then just

00:57:00

being able to test yourself in that um

00:57:02

in that field

00:57:04

um against you know the best of the

00:57:07

United Kingdom and and Ireland you know

00:57:09

as

00:57:10

um was um pretty special yeah absolutely

00:57:13

and the three jerseys um did you you

00:57:15

swap them or you still have them now

00:57:17

what have you done I still have them

00:57:19

yeah um they're at home um my parents

00:57:21

have them so um yeah yeah I didn't

00:57:24

framed framed on a wall or in a box

00:57:27

somewhere or

00:57:30

framed and it sits in the wardrobe what

00:57:33

do you mean in the wardrobes and the

00:57:35

closet

00:57:37

yeah it's not allowed to come out it'll

00:57:40

come out when it's gone already yeah is

00:57:42

taking his time

00:57:44

don't rush these things yeah yeah

00:57:49

um yeah and that's and the um the other

00:57:51

jerseys are in the um and a I think

00:57:54

they're on a chest I think yeah amazing

00:57:56

they mean something to you or yeah yeah

00:57:58

yeah

00:58:06

yeah

00:58:06

it's always nice to have a look and see

00:58:09

them and what do you think when you look

00:58:10

at them just like is it like a like a

00:58:12

[ __ ] here moment or a holy [ __ ] these

00:58:15

are mine yeah yeah it's just

00:58:18

you just sort of think about the time

00:58:20

and and how good it was and and um yeah

00:58:24

and how awesome you know the All Blacks

00:58:27

are in New Zealand Rugby and things like

00:58:29

that and yeah it's a pretty like I think

00:58:31

you were pretty fortunate pretty pretty

00:58:33

cool country it's really cool to hear

00:58:35

that they mean that much to you even

00:58:37

after all these years yeah

00:58:39

um so I suppose there's two ways of

00:58:40

looking at it you could you could think

00:58:42

I'm I'm bloody lucky because I had this

00:58:43

opportunity and I've got three all black

00:58:46

test jerseys or you could think I'm

00:58:48

unlucky because I've only got three all

00:58:50

black test users is there part of you

00:58:52

that thinks like that

00:58:54

um oh yeah they always will be alive

00:58:57

yeah yeah there's always that

00:58:59

um rig you know I just regret that you

00:59:02

that I didn't reset my goals that I

00:59:04

didn't um you know

00:59:06

um reset my goals to go to to stay and

00:59:09

and and and be a be a be a great all

00:59:11

black and and not just be happy to have

00:59:14

made it

00:59:15

um you know because I fell into that

00:59:16

trap of of you know probably complacency

00:59:19

I'd made the team and then I was like oh

00:59:22

team yep made it done cool good job

00:59:25

Daddy yeah yeah you went to sleep and

00:59:27

then you know next thing kids having a

00:59:29

conversation to you telling you that uh

00:59:31

you're not coming back next week wow

00:59:34

what did you play a bad game or no so it

00:59:37

was the end of the uh the lion series

00:59:39

and um they um have a meeting with in

00:59:43

had a meeting with me saying you know

00:59:45

these are the things we want you to go

00:59:47

away and work on we're building for a

00:59:50

World Cup and you know we want to

00:59:52

probably have a look at a few other

00:59:53

players but we need you to work on these

00:59:55

things I want you to go back to your

00:59:57

provincial Union and work on those and

00:59:59

we'll address it in the future yeah

01:00:02

right and you you went away and you you

01:00:04

didn't address the things or oh no yeah

01:00:06

you go away and try and address them

01:00:07

yeah and then um you know

01:00:09

um but here yeah and then it comes down

01:00:13

to the selector's choice and and that so

01:00:16

you do everything that's in your power

01:00:17

and but it's yeah um yes I heard um I

01:00:20

think it was an interview with um

01:00:22

um Beaver Stephen Donald

01:00:24

um and he talked about because you

01:00:25

mentioned the great all black thing and

01:00:26

he said oh when you become an all black

01:00:27

they they start drumming into you that

01:00:29

you you should strive to be a great all

01:00:31

black and he said the first time here

01:00:33

that he's looking around the room and he

01:00:34

sees Dan Carter and he sees Aaron cruden

01:00:36

and whoever else he goes well I'm [ __ ]

01:00:38

I'm never going to be a great all black

01:00:40

yeah that's a great all there yeah yeah

01:00:43

yeah yeah we have a lot to thank 100 we

01:00:47

do

01:00:48

um and so what's Graham Henry like is he

01:00:51

intimidating to be around it like when

01:00:52

he walks into the room do you find

01:00:54

yourself um you feel like a school boy

01:00:56

at school that's setting up for the

01:00:57

school principal or is he quite friendly

01:00:59

and um

01:01:00

he's very friendly very approachable and

01:01:03

um yeah

01:01:04

yeah

01:01:05

He commands respect when he comes into a

01:01:07

room and um and everyone you know

01:01:09

listens and and does what he what he

01:01:12

tells you but um he's a he's a great guy

01:01:14

yeah who would be you you have like a

01:01:17

best coach or a favorite coach through

01:01:18

your career who's been the most

01:01:20

influential

01:01:21

um

01:01:24

Robbie

01:01:31

Rob Kinney

01:01:33

um in Canterbury he was he was very um

01:01:35

influential in my career as as well

01:01:37

because he was also he was a forged

01:01:39

coach as well so he um yeah he helped me

01:01:42

a lot with just um General awareness

01:01:45

around the field and things like that so

01:01:48

um yeah I I actually think every every

01:01:51

coach I've I've had has had their own

01:01:55

um

01:01:57

um own bit of influence influence in in

01:02:01

my in my career and the way I played um

01:02:04

and because I think I was very fortunate

01:02:06

to have some you know countless amazing

01:02:09

coaches and and um they've all you know

01:02:13

influenced influenced the way I've

01:02:15

played and certain aspects um

01:02:18

um

01:02:18

um really well with me and and I've been

01:02:21

um you know lucky enough to be able to

01:02:24

to get that knowledge and being

01:02:27

fortunate enough to be able to absorb

01:02:29

that knowledge and take it on board yeah

01:02:31

and one thing people give you give you

01:02:34

the knowledge and that is the other

01:02:35

thing is to accept and take it on board

01:02:37

isn't it yeah I mean it's incredible

01:02:38

that like yeah you think the coaches

01:02:40

you've had and the players that you've

01:02:41

been surrounded by like some of the best

01:02:43

that the world has ever seen in the

01:02:45

sport yeah it's incredible yeah and

01:02:48

lucky and um outside of rugby like how

01:02:51

does the house the second half of your

01:02:52

life looking for you do you want to you

01:02:53

have to get married at some point

01:02:57

see how things go I guess

01:02:59

um you know see how things track along

01:03:03

um but yeah outside at the moment things

01:03:05

are going pretty well you know um lost

01:03:08

pretty good when

01:03:11

um what about a family at some point

01:03:12

obviously that comes with like you know

01:03:14

a set of hurdles and things yeah I

01:03:20

I've parked that much and um yeah not

01:03:23

too sure about that one never really

01:03:24

thought about that I mean um yeah I yeah

01:03:27

I've had fertility struggles so I can't

01:03:28

have kids of my own so yeah I always

01:03:30

sort of imagined that I'd have my own

01:03:33

family and then you know when it doesn't

01:03:34

happen you have to sort of reframe the

01:03:35

second part of your life but I suppose

01:03:37

um being a gay male maybe like you've

01:03:39

never even sort of like thought about

01:03:40

kids you just assumed it wouldn't be

01:03:42

part of the plan

01:03:43

um

01:03:48

out of my life I did assume that it

01:03:50

wouldn't be a part of the plan but

01:03:52

obviously you know the way the world is

01:03:55

now and there's so many different

01:03:57

Avenues you can explore with um you know

01:03:59

having kids whether it be adopting kids

01:04:02

or or so what you know I think there's

01:04:04

so many more um ways it can be possible

01:04:07

so yeah 100 and if anyone's listening to

01:04:10

this that's um like you know young or

01:04:13

youngish or actually actually even old

01:04:15

and sort of grappling with their

01:04:16

sexuality like they they know they're

01:04:18

gay and that they haven't told anyone

01:04:20

and they're not sure like how to go

01:04:21

about it like what would your message be

01:04:24

um my my message would be just pretty

01:04:27

much like it's um there's no there's no

01:04:29

rules or there's no law about coming out

01:04:32

like you don't have to if you don't if

01:04:35

you don't feel it's right then you don't

01:04:36

have to do it but if you feel like you

01:04:39

you need to do it because you're you're

01:04:41

under anxiety or stress

01:04:43

um then then then look around and and

01:04:46

find you know someone that you think is

01:04:48

safe or someone you can confide in and

01:04:51

even if it's just telling that that one

01:04:53

person that one person might be enough

01:04:55

for you and if that's all you tell and

01:04:57

and for the rest of your life then

01:04:58

that's fine that's your decision but if

01:05:00

you want to pursue and tell more people

01:05:02

then um yeah Do It um and always make

01:05:06

sure it's on your terms and and and and

01:05:09

your best interest not on what other

01:05:12

people want or if other people are

01:05:13

pushing you yeah yeah has everything

01:05:15

been done on your tips yeah yeah yeah in

01:05:18

in hindsight like things have played out

01:05:20

pretty good would you have done anything

01:05:21

different if you could rewind the clock

01:05:24

um no no I don't know I don't I don't

01:05:27

think so

01:05:28

it's all just yes

01:05:30

you know it kind of is what it is and

01:05:33

it's all been taken with such um

01:05:36

um so that's

01:05:37

such love and respect and and and and

01:05:40

support has just been phenomenal so um

01:05:43

yeah I don't think I don't think we

01:05:45

could have even painted you know

01:05:48

described a scenario or mapped it out

01:05:51

like this so it's it's been really um

01:05:53

humbling yeah has there been any sort of

01:05:56

negativity or anything

01:05:58

um not that I can recall I mean there's

01:06:00

always there's always some need of it

01:06:02

but you'd have to be you'd have to be a

01:06:04

special sort of person though wouldn't

01:06:05

you yeah but you know and

01:06:18

yeah people have the

01:06:19

and it comes down to timing as well like

01:06:22

yeah process things and

01:06:24

and that so oh are you just sorry just

01:06:27

like yeah just an afterthought so yeah

01:06:29

what we what were your thoughts or what

01:06:31

was going through your mind a couple of

01:06:32

years ago when the um Israel for loud

01:06:33

stuff was going on

01:06:36

yeah I can't really remember that with

01:06:39

that what was going on because I was in

01:06:42

um I was in Europe so it didn't really I

01:06:44

remember a friend text me something

01:06:45

about it but um yeah it's I suppose if

01:06:48

you missed the whole news cycle here

01:06:50

yeah yeah so but you know that's

01:06:53

um yeah it's people's

01:06:56

uh it's people's opinions and that which

01:06:58

were you know we kind of always going to

01:07:01

have so that's just what it what is yeah

01:07:05

kind of I like it you're kind you're so

01:07:07

cruisy about these things eh like

01:07:09

there's there's a lot of a lot of other

01:07:10

people myself included they'd be more

01:07:12

outraged on your behalf like for anyone

01:07:14

that's got like a negative reaction to

01:07:16

it because it's like why do you [ __ ]

01:07:17

care

01:07:18

yeah but you know you

01:07:21

can focus on that one person we can

01:07:23

focus on the 100 or 200 other great

01:07:26

messages and support and stories that

01:07:28

people tell you I mean for me it's it's

01:07:30

so much easier to go through a hundred

01:07:34

great messages and reply to 100 messages

01:07:36

data from about support then sit down

01:07:39

and reply to one about there's been

01:07:41

negative so I don't even it doesn't even

01:07:43

cross my mind even look at that yeah but

01:07:45

it's as no human nature that it's the

01:07:47

negative one that jumps out from the

01:07:48

page

01:07:50

um I sort of find that along with

01:07:51

comments on my Instagram feed it's like

01:07:53

nice message nice message nice pictures

01:07:54

mean message and it's like what and then

01:07:57

suddenly I'm stalking their profile and

01:08:00

yeah well yeah I

01:08:02

for me no

01:08:04

no I mean and I I'm a little bit wide

01:08:06

the other way I see like a negative

01:08:08

messages like well we really are trying

01:08:10

we really are reaching people like if

01:08:13

they've taken their time and it's

01:08:15

something they're not interested in and

01:08:16

they've taken the time to put a post up

01:08:18

then we've really made it we've really

01:08:21

made it this is good yeah just keep

01:08:24

going and were there any um out of the

01:08:27

thousands of messages of love and

01:08:29

support that you got after doing the

01:08:30

seven sharp thing with it like any

01:08:31

messages that like stand out in a sort

01:08:33

of like imprinted in your in your mind

01:08:35

that they had that sort of impact on you

01:08:37

um yeah there were a few and and the

01:08:39

main

01:08:40

um underlining tone of those messages

01:08:42

were people that um had stopped playing

01:08:46

a sport that they loved and and and and

01:08:48

were really passionate about for the

01:08:51

reasons that they didn't feel safe they

01:08:52

didn't feel accepted in that Sport and

01:08:55

and their message their their you know

01:08:57

story was that now after my coming out

01:09:02

and my story it's given them you know um

01:09:05

a little bit of Faith back into Sport

01:09:08

and they're actually going to look at

01:09:10

maybe watching it and becoming a fan

01:09:12

again of that sport or even

01:09:14

participating again and that's really

01:09:16

cool to see that people actually now

01:09:18

thinking oh okay you know I left a sport

01:09:20

that I loved and enjoyed so much because

01:09:23

of my sexuality but now I think I can go

01:09:26

back to it and and and and really start

01:09:28

enjoying it again and that's something

01:09:30

pretty cool oh it's powerful stuff do

01:09:32

you hope we get to the point in your

01:09:33

lifetime where people don't even have to

01:09:36

come out

01:09:37

um yeah yeah

01:09:46

University yesterday

01:09:49

um in their Sociology class I think

01:09:52

and we coined the the the fact about

01:09:56

normalizing it and we looked at you know

01:09:57

for an example how back in the 30s or 40

01:10:01

years ago you know you saw

01:10:04

um you know the the wife or the woman in

01:10:06

the kitchen doing most of the cooking

01:10:08

yeah and now you see men and the kids

01:10:11

and everyone cooking and it's because of

01:10:13

you know we've seen the steady

01:10:14

normalization of that like guys are in

01:10:17

the kitchen cooking so we'll see that

01:10:18

happen with the sexuality as well I

01:10:20

believe you'll see just just the

01:10:22

normalization as people that are you

01:10:24

know growing up even when they go

01:10:26

through schools now they're seeing more

01:10:28

of it and more of it so it's coming very

01:10:30

normal so yeah yeah as doing this

01:10:32

interview in late January opened a new

01:10:34

chapter of um of sort of life for you

01:10:36

like you mentioned doing a speech in

01:10:37

Christchurch she said I've seen you on

01:10:38

social media you know rubbing shoulders

01:10:40

with Ruby Tui she's wonderful she's an

01:10:43

awesome awesome human being did you know

01:10:45

it before this um

01:10:48

yeah

01:10:51

yeah

01:10:52

just and so much so much life and she's

01:10:55

got such a great smile she lights up a

01:10:57

whole room she's just incredible

01:11:00

um but yeah and I were doing a little

01:11:01

bit of work around that sort of stuff

01:11:03

and just helping out and getting out

01:11:05

there and um and and sort of just um

01:11:09

sort of continuing the vibe of just

01:11:11

awareness and openness and a caring vibe

01:11:14

that you know and Sport you know he can

01:11:17

still have that combat that that that

01:11:18

competitive that um their die-hard

01:11:21

attitude on the field but you know off

01:11:23

the field you you can be um you can be

01:11:27

vulnerable you can be open and and if

01:11:29

you're aware to what your teammates are

01:11:31

going through you know it would actually

01:11:33

make you stronger on the field yeah

01:11:35

well I reckon let's play a good way to

01:11:37

finish

01:11:37

I love it awesome Campbell Johnston CJ

01:11:40

thank you so much for coming over today

01:11:42

man it's really nice to finally meet you

01:11:44

and sit down with you and thanks for

01:11:45

being so open with your stories yeah

01:11:46

that's all right so we're good thank you

01:11:48

thank you very much for having me it's

01:11:49

awesome I really appreciate it man

01:11:50

changing lives

01:11:57

I hope your dad's happy I hope the Ducks

01:11:59

are leading the bread anymore yeah

01:12:03

awesome thank you

01:12:06

[Music]

01:12:14

thank you

01:12:16

[Music]

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Episode Highlights

The Glow Up
Campbell Johnston discusses his transformation and the meaning of 'glow up'.
“It’s basically when you get better looking with age.”
@ 01m 50s
May 06, 2023
Coming Out Journey
Campbell shares his experience of coming out and the support he received.
“You feel lighter, you have final closure on the matter.”
@ 10m 21s
May 06, 2023
The Surreal Moment
Reflecting on a surreal experience that felt underwhelming after much anticipation.
“It was quite surreal.”
@ 19m 05s
May 06, 2023
Processing Personal News
Discussing the importance of giving time for loved ones to process significant news.
“You’ve got to give time for people to process.”
@ 20m 26s
May 06, 2023
Passion for Rugby
A deep desire to play rugby drove the speaker through challenges and setbacks.
“I just had this desire to play the game.”
@ 26m 54s
May 06, 2023
Scott Robertson's Journey
Celebrating Scott Robertson's hard work and dedication in his coaching career.
“He’s worked hard to get where he is.”
@ 36m 51s
May 06, 2023
Playing with Legends
Reflecting on his career, he shares how playing with greats like Richie McCaw inspired him.
“You only can be inspired and motivated by him.”
@ 39m 49s
May 06, 2023
The All Blacks Announcement
He recalls the special moment he learned he made the All Blacks squad.
“It must be a bloody special moment.”
@ 44m 13s
May 06, 2023
First All Blacks Game
Describing his debut, he expresses the pure excitement of wearing the black jersey.
“It was just pure excitement for me.”
@ 49m 55s
May 06, 2023
Influential Coaches
Discussing the impact of various coaches on his career and personal growth.
“Every coach I've had has had their own bit of influence.”
@ 01h 01m 51s
May 06, 2023
The Journey of Acceptance
Reflecting on the journey of self-acceptance and the importance of coming out.
“There's no rules about coming out.”
@ 01h 04m 27s
May 06, 2023
Normalizing Sexuality
A vision for a future where coming out is no longer necessary.
“I believe you'll see just the normalization of sexuality.”
@ 01h 10m 20s
May 06, 2023

Episode Quotes

It’s basically when you get better looking with age.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey
It's just all in your head.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey
It’s a horrible job being a prop.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey
You play with good players and they make you look good.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey
I was just excitement.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey
It's been really humbling.
Campbell Johnstone, the first openly gay All Black || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Key Moments

Coming Out10:21
Surreal Experience19:05
Desire to Play26:54
Life of a Prop28:48
All Blacks Announcement44:13
First Game Excitement49:55
Self-Reflection59:02
Open Conversations1:11:27

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

Dave Letele (Buttabean) talks about being held at gun point || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 14, 2022

59:23

Dave Letele (Buttabean) talks about being held at gun point || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

John Hart, Former All Blacks Coach - Mental Health Struggles, Remembering Jonah Lomu, and more!

September 03, 2023

01:37:58

John Hart, Former All Blacks Coach - Mental Health Struggles, Remembering Jonah Lomu, and more!

Rhys Darby on how to keep mental health in good shape || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 25, 2022

01:14:54

Rhys Darby on how to keep mental health in good shape || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

America's Cup Winner Dean Barker || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

June 10, 2023

01:23:00

America's Cup Winner Dean Barker || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Fair Go's Haydn Jones is a bloody Good Sort! || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

May 21, 2023

01:07:44

Fair Go's Haydn Jones is a bloody Good Sort! || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Shane Cameron || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

December 28, 2022

43:51

Shane Cameron || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Simone Anderson defined NZ influencer advertising standards || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

February 05, 2023

01:23:37

Simone Anderson defined NZ influencer advertising standards || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Eric Murray kidnapped a swan (true story) || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

November 10, 2022

01:14:53

Eric Murray kidnapped a swan (true story) || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Tim Ross Reflects on Merrick & Rosso, Triple J, Teaching Kathy Griffin Aussie Slang & More!

May 01, 2024

01:43:00

Tim Ross Reflects on Merrick & Rosso, Triple J, Teaching Kathy Griffin Aussie Slang & More!

Chanel Harris-Tavita on why he turned his back on pro sport || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 25, 2022

01:06:46

Chanel Harris-Tavita on why he turned his back on pro sport || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

All Black Kieran Read shares pain of the 2019 World Cup loss | Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 20, 2022

01:16:38

All Black Kieran Read shares pain of the 2019 World Cup loss | Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Sir Ashley Bloomfield talks behind the scenes of response || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

April 02, 2023

01:10:42

Sir Ashley Bloomfield talks behind the scenes of response || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey