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hey Runners only with dime Harley Runners only with dom Harvey and Campbell Johnston g'day mate how are you
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good thanks Tom yourself yeah very well thank you so much for coming over for an
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episode thank you for the invitation it's been great first of all first of all former front rower what the hell do
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you know about running you run these days you do look like a runner these days but you didn't back in the day no
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yeah I've lost a lot of weight um I guess I just went back to my normal size
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um as my mother says she um now thinks she's got her son back now I've lost all
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my weight because yeah I was always never a huge man when I was growing up or when I was um starting off with rugby
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but um to play the position and playing the sport you've got to put some size on
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so that was what I had to do yeah because you were a prop yes correct so you're playing weight was playing weight
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was between 110 to 113 kilos shame what are you now who's sitting in front of me
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86 kilos you like the same as me it's like a completely different person yeah um there's there's been a lot
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that's been happening um for you since uh January 30th this year when you did
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that um seven sharp interview with um Hillary had you had you heard the phrase glow up before then
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[Laughter] um I'm guessing you're not huge on Tech talk no I'm not on Tick Tock yet but uh
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yeah no I hadn't heard the phrase there um yeah you know the interview yeah the
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interview is really good and um yeah I'm full confidence to uh Hillary Barry she just made it so easy
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like she's just a this ultimate professional and she just made it very relaxed and very comfortable and and and
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and and just wonderful for me to be able to do that with her yeah oh man I'm so
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excited to get into get into that by the way for anyone that um isn't sure the
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phrase glow up it's basically um when you get better looking with age um well you don't look like a front rower
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anymore I suppose that's what people mean all right now um how close are you
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with Kieran Reed one of the greatest all black captains of all time uh you've
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recently it depends on what you're going to read out um but they might change my opinion
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I I sent uh Karen read a message yesterday asking uh saying I was catching up with you and asking if he
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had any Goss um he refers to you as CJ yeah yeah is that was that what your name was within
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the team circles okay awesome to have CJ come on yeah we crossed over for a couple of years I
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will ask Corey Flynn who knows him a bit bit better who might have a few Yarns well of course that Corey Flynn he was
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in all black the same time as you played about I think 17 tests over a number of
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years yeah so Corey and I were we played a lot of rugby together both when we were um eighth grade stuff and
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then in the Crusaders and uh and then Canterbury and and um and um and a couple of uh rep teams as well the
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Juniors and things like that so yeah does it does it make you um yeah your palms getting sweaty yeah
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I wasn't too consuming Karen Riggs I knew Karen nicest guy yeah nice guy but
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when you mentioned Corey's name then I was I was like oh hang on a minute all
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things changed Dom's ambushed me um so uh Kieran Reid went on to say uh to be honest
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CJ is probably the last person you'd think that would be gay he enjoyed the drinking putting on social events with a
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few other boys his flight with Scott Hamilton was where all the parties were at knowing now it must have been bloody
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hard for him but to me at the time he was just a great teammate who seemed to enjoy the Boost more than others
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now I was I was thinking I was I was thinking about that um earlier this morning before you came
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in and I didn't have you had therapy over the years at all I've done a bit of therapies and when
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you've done a bit of therapy you tend to well at least I do I tend to think how
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would a therapist frame this so maybe this is just completely overthinking it but there's two ways uh two ways that I
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looked at it maybe you were drinking a lot at the time because you were masking or maybe like you were you were just
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doing what you could to be the definition of what you thought like a big manly man was like like being a
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front rower being a successful rugby player drinking a lot of piss yeah I mean it people have asked that and and
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brought that up before but to be honest I was playing and the time was coming through there was this transition from
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where it was amateur to professional and amateur and and at the time and and then
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the new professionals still involved a lot of partying and a lot of good times and the drinking was well not actually
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to mask anything but it was just because we were having fun like it was a part of
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the the so-called culture which as the years went on it slowly you know it's
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toned down to more professional sport but um yeah it was more so because of the fun aspect and then really any any
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masking I mean if yeah masking in drunk maybe I would have just spilled something out or
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yelled something out or just yeah so I don't think it was masking yeah yeah or
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fun sorry that just means psychoanalyzing without any formal qualifications at all loves a good time
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yeah um Rito went on to say um they sent a follow-up text this morning saying sorry
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mate sorry mate got nothing out of flinny he said he said they weren't fit for broadcast have a good chat well
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without do you want to Spill the tea on that one can you think of any story that wouldn't
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be fit for broadcast uh no no everything was pretty pretty tame I think I just enjoyed a nice pint at the pub and uh
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after a game and um and then yeah and everyone went home and that end no further questions okay
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um now I I need to I need to warn you like I may ask some dumb questions and if or when I do please know that I'm not
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trying to be a dumbass I'm just curious okay yeah um okay so so Monday the 30th
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of January this year uh seven sharp interview with Hillary Barry um Talk us through the process leading
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up to that like when who did you speak to when did you decide to do it with seven sharp what was that process
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um so so a bit of a backstory is that there's always media that was always asking and going to Joe Malcolm and and
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they always knew Christian Joe Malcolm was the media liaison obviously for the All Blacks and at the time when I was in
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Canterbury and Crusaders she was media liaison there so she's been a massive
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help and a big support and um and they always would come and ask and say you know we know it we know this Campbell
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was a gay all black can we publish it and then it was always shut down because for me it wasn't it wasn't I didn't feel
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right in myself or you know securing myself to do that I wasn't happy with myself so for me it was um it wasn't the
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right time and then last year we I spoke with Rob nickel from The Players Association and we had a
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discussion around this whole idea and how much it could really help people out there and and and people
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struggling with this and and I honest and and naively just thought well I don't think it can I'm pretty happy
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where my life is and and that and I am comfortable but I don't think I can really help it's you know it's just a
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little little on me I'm don't really have no you are a little now yeah exactly you don't really have
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much to offer and then we talked more about it and it did become apparent that there is you know
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it could actually help and then so Rob and I structured a little way that we thought
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would be best which was just visiting the Super Rugby teams and and and telling a story and and and and and that
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was it and then if the media caught on to it then you know that would be good if they didn't we just keep trucking
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along but then we thought we'd better bring in Joe Malcolm just to get a professional bit of advice on the media
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aspect and Joe basically said you know we're a little crazy doing it that way
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and it's not really the best way and and short words she just said you guys are
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just so stupid and um and then she said look you want to we want to actually just front the media and kinda
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pay them back the respect that they showed me and and um and Joe by not outing me at the time oh but come on
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like like adding someone when they're not ready it's like it's a it's a
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[ __ ] sin it's a terrible it is it is but someone could have done it yeah and
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so the respect there was she said we just make a public story um we contact Hillary ask if she's
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interested and we do it that way and that that way they all can have it and they can do what they they like with it
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and so that was the the plan so we uh Joe contacted Hillary Hillary was jumped on it and um the rest is the what you
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saw so when how long it was a pre-recorded interview so um how long before the 30th of January was it
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recorded So we recorded on the Monday morning the 30th of January that night all right so you didn't have like weeks
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to a certain no to tune over okay straight away and there was a couple of thoughts behind that one was I think uh
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Hillary and that didn't want it leaking um we had to keep it you know very secret from a lot of avenues and it was
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just going to be coming straight away bang bang so it sounds like it was like the worst kept secret you said some
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media had been sort of handling the NZ are you for years yeah so you it's a strange thing is that because uh
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like um I used to work with a guy called Mike Peru who uh we worked together and
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did a brick show for years and years and years and he like he he came out on the
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year one day um but he I mean he wasn't really in the closet before that anyway and the
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respect that his family knew his friends knew all his workmates knew but he just
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had that final step to like I suppose be honest with his radio audience sounds like it was sort of the same with you
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yeah exactly I mean for me it was like the final step just to have closure you know you no longer have that
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Cloud hanging over your head even though your family your friends your teammates
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everyone knows and there's all old news but just uh you know laid a rest of that
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final piece and it and it does give you yourself peace you feel lighter yeah you
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do you know you have final closure on the matter and and the other thing it was you know we can possibly help people
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and even when we did we talked and even if it was just helping one person you know then it's it's been rewarding and
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but the real sense of it it's actually helped a lot of people by all the messages and and and uh and that that
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I've received from people who you know who've left the game of rugby or left a
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sport because they didn't feel included or they didn't feel that they were a
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part of it because they struggled with their sexuality um now they're actually looking thinking
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to come back into that support into that sport either as a a fan or a spectator but or you know getting back involved in
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actually playing that sport which is really cool and it's something really rewarding for um everyone you know if
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people are considering to come back into sport 100 so so The Story Goes to here you're sitting
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at home watching it with your partner uh who else you have like a room full of people or no just the two of you no so
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we um how are you feeling you're [ __ ] yourself um no no no I wasn't I wasn't really I
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was I mean because Hillary just made it so easy like that was the beauty of it yeah but that's one thing you do the
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interview with Hillary but then it's like okay it's time for it to go to
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where and now everyone's gonna see it yeah yeah no um so we were just in in the hotel room in Christchurch we
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watched the interview and yeah it was like okay I sort of probably head under the bed while the interview went and
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then uh yeah and then um then we went out and had a couple of drinks with um a few friends
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um that we'd organized and that and um yeah that was it really and yeah then
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then what your phone's blowing up um yeah like like what yeah I mean yeah like what happened that evening
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obviously you felt different yourself like it's a massive sort of weight off
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your shoulders um but what was like the external reaction like um the external reaction was was
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incredible like the the um it spread around the world like wildfire like the phone was just um you
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know pinging all day all night just keep non-stop of people you know once you know when
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Europe woke up and was seeing the story because like I'm the guardian I'm
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thinking yeah because the um all the media Outlets this Ram what they're like
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BBC CNN I mean and for me like I honestly I didn't really think it would spread that far I was probably again
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naive I thought maybe would we'd hit the New Zealand Public in a mass and then
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maybe on a greater International sense we might hit the Australian rugby public I thought that may have you know that
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would have been about it but it wasn't and um and funny enough Rob and Joe they
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both knew it was going to go Wildfire but they didn't tell me that and they just uh just told me that yeah when I
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said oh we might just do New Zealand and they're like yeah yeah you might no such
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thing anymore right yeah yeah they're like this kid has no idea Campbell hasn't heard of the internet and well
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and the other thing is because I'm I've always been naturally quite and reserved person that they probably
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knew if they told me that it was going to go like that that I I'd probably run
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for the hills and hide again yeah do you think um I mean obviously it's been like a
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positive reaction and there's been so much love and so much support and and all of that but if they said to you it's
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going to be massive it's everyone around the world's going to know about it and
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people are going to reach out from you that you don't know from a bar or so do
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you think you would have maybe not done it um no I I joke about that but um I I still would have um because I was you
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know I'd made made my mind up um we had talked I talked with my partner and everything and we we were very happy to
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do it and um I had the strong belief and I said to Joe and Rob you know we we don't want to just open the door and
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then walk away and we want to open the door and stand by it and and that's how
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we're going to get real traction to help people by standing by there and and and
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and supporting people as they as as they need or just yeah getting out there and
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did you did you hear from any old teammates yeah yeah I hear from a lot of them I mean they all do they know yeah a
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lot of them knew so they're all just and the more the things I heard from them
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was message of support and just comments and you know like they they know how private I am and things like that and
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they just would say like you know well done it's a really good move you've done
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well and um yeah considering how private you are and yeah so that was that was nice yeah yeah why why are you so
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private is it just how you've been do you think of changes you got older and
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more comfortable in your own skin no I think I still still am pretty reserved and pretty private um
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um I guess yeah I guess I just grew up in the you know strange danger situation Paris has brought me out well to be a
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stranger don't you keep away from people um yeah and I've always been very
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reserved and very quiet um but I think yeah once I get talking and that I open up a bit more yeah I
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know well I've given that you're I'm a private guy I do appreciate you coming
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on the podcast today no no that's quite all right it's good it's awesome and did
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um yeah I know I appreciate it because like as you said like from doing the TV thing and from doing things like this oh
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by the way I promise that I I said to myself this morning I said oh maybe a third maximum will be about the
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sexuality because you're so much more than just that but it's real fascinating
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stuff yeah that's all right you just ask what you like okay good and again if
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it's a dumb question tell me it's a dumb question and we'll move on um did any other um All Blacks past or
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present reach out to tell you that they're gay or by um no no no um because you went to an old boy Square
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you went to Linda's Linden College yeah and so what years were you there was it
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in the 90s yeah so I was there um it must have been 93 to 97 right yeah exciting to I went to um Palmer's North
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boys high uh in the very late 80s and um I look back now and the homophobia was rough like every day every day
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someone would use the f word or the H word yeah and I'm sure I look back now
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and I'm sure I did it as well because everyone did it it was just the go-to so
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when I was at school there was say a thousand boys there so on a conservative side there'd be 50 gay
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boys or you know maybe more likely 100 or 150 but not one person would ever identify as being gay because it was
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just like the homophobia was just that Rife it would be oh yeah it'd be the worst did you know then like at high
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school age or yeah still yeah no no no I I did I I reckon it was around about when I was maybe 15. yeah you know like
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um yeah the example that sort of Springs me here is I I remember friends and that
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you know talking about how pretty or how gorgeous these girls are and and and and
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that and then in my head I'll be like are they but I don't find that you know
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yeah Pamela Anderson no no no I don't see it it's not nice here who was it for you because my co-host
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that I mentioned before Mike pero Instagram was like a David Hasselhoff Baywatch thing he was like it was the
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dudes in Baywatch that he was like oh okay something's going on here is there
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any like celebrities for you [Laughter] Baywatch is probably quite a um you put it like
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one uh for a gay or Heathrow person to watch it was quite yeah it's just a very
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sexual show yeah anyone knows yeah yeah exactly yeah I could watch it and take from what you'd like so so you're um
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your um who did you come out to first I was at your parents yeah I gave it to my of
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maybe when I was 22 23 around that age I can't quite remember is that quite old I
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feel like it's quite old by maybe today's oh yeah oh for today's standards has probably
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was quite normal for back then was that hard plucking up the courage to do that um well I kind of made a
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track in my mind uh decision in my mind and I had two options I thought was because I love rugby it was either a one
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I stopped playing rugby or two I come out because I had all this anxiety anxiety building up and and then I
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looked at it and was like well number ones are gonna going to happen because I love rugby too much so I'm not
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going to stop playing rugby so I guess I'm just going to have to tell someone
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and so that was my thought process and why I went and I just sat down at dinner one night and told mum and dad and um it
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was um yeah it was quite I guess surreal really it was almost like nothing had happened and like just underwhelming for
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you I'm guessing it took a lot of courage to get to that moment yeah yeah you were building it up in your mind to
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be amazed yes you do you do you just build up all this stuff which isn't isn't really real it's this all in your
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head and when you know when it comes to the real stuff you know it's it's just a
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bit of a bit of a bit of a letdown and the best and the best way best way I was like I just told them we run out of milk
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and and go get some and then and I think mothers always know and Mum was like oh
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yeah okay kind of new and I was like no you didn't and your dad was he kind of the same oh
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yeah yeah it did nothing nothing favors faces him I'm very lucky that my parents
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are very laid back and very very grounded people and you know they just carry on yeah oh that's so cool because
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I have got some friends that um when they tell their parents uh especially one friend of mine that's quite
00:20:03
religious like his parents initial reaction was like shock and horror and they wanted to get the Bible to pray for
00:20:08
their son um but they thought out in time yeah it often it just takes there's
00:20:13
an initial shock period and it takes time yeah I think I think everyone doing I think you've got to you know you've
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you know when you do something like that or you go for it I mean you've got to
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also be prepared that you've got to give time to for people to process the the
00:20:26
information you've given them I mean some people proceeds quickly some people
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process slowly and um and I think if you're if you're aware and you give
00:20:36
people the the time and the space then you know most people come to The Logical conclusion
00:20:42
so you may want to tell me to piss off for this one um your your early sexual encounters guys or girls
00:20:49
uh uh girls early earlier or just like trying to sort of convince yourself or trying to override
00:20:57
the oh I I guess just just um just Towing the line really yeah you know just trying to conform to that
00:21:03
Ideal World yeah yeah that's a that's a that's a crazy thought there I know it's a crazy thought
00:21:13
because it's like that that's the norm so even though you you know in your in
00:21:17
your DNA it's not what you're into but yeah you want to force yourself to be
00:21:21
into it yeah it's it's an interesting one and I guess that's it's all apart
00:21:26
of experimenting and finding out and I guess it's a part of also um just clarifying and reassuring in
00:21:34
your mind that that it's it's it is what it is what it is and it's and it's
00:21:39
definitely not that that you like and it's the other space that you like I mean yeah I think I think everyone
00:21:46
probably goes through that thought process and and that that um exploring you know on on numerous
00:21:53
occasions when they're going through it yeah and um who did you have to look I'm
00:21:58
get I'm guessing like one of the the only person I can think of that you'd
00:22:01
have to look up to like um like a hard man in sport that was gay was Ian Roberts you know the manly Sea Eagles
00:22:07
league player from the 90s yeah yeah I mean was there anyone else anyone else that you could identify with that was
00:22:13
like like gay and successful in a like a contact sport yeah no no there was anyone else I remember Gareth Thomas
00:22:22
came out there oh the worst guy rugby guy but I can't remember when he came out I can't remember the exact dates on
00:22:29
that but yeah Ian Roberts was it was a big one um yeah because he was a he was a he was
00:22:34
hard man no one he was uncompromising yeah he was a badass yeah yeah um so your your partner you've been with
00:22:42
for like a year and a half he's um sitting in the other room just just watching this
00:22:45
um how did you guys meet um oh we met a few years a few years ago um at a bar in um in Cambridge
00:22:57
um and then we've been sort of friends ever since um and we've both lived overseas and um
00:23:05
you know we've lived overseas separately in separate lives and and then and then
00:23:09
um both have come back and yeah that's been history now both come back and sort
00:23:15
of picked things up really yeah it's fantastic was was he part of the cat like the obviously you discussed him you
00:23:21
know doing the seven sharp thing and yeah yeah no no yeah he was a big supportive yeah and and we talked about
00:23:28
that and talked about how we'd pursue it and and um yeah and obviously that was a
00:23:32
part that we'd try and you know keep private and and because you've got to
00:23:37
have some things private in this world and that so yeah so but he's been really
00:23:40
supportive and um couldn't ask couldn't ask you know anything more from from
00:23:44
someone yeah did you ever dabble in the apps you ever go on Grindr or anything like that I I think every
00:23:52
is just one of these things um yeah it's a it's an interesting app did you ever like a type you know you
00:24:01
can they have like a list a selection and you can take your type there's like
00:24:05
um beer twink discreet leather rugged pause what's a pause do you know what a
00:24:10
pause is but did you ever type um I don't know um I never I don't think you well
00:24:20
probably when I dabbled in was a few years ago and I don't know if you could
00:24:24
I didn't have that yeah well maybe you had to pay for that yeah maybe I'm on
00:24:30
premium yeah all right well I have a very specific I I've um I I I I think I'm 100
00:24:37
heterosexual but that was until um uh winter of 2004 when um Dan Carter did the jockey campaign
00:24:44
then I had some questions about my own sexuality um funny story about grinder is that um
00:24:51
I played for um in France I played for uh Brits Barrett's Olympic the the bio
00:24:57
the the team in the top 14 and um two years ago I think it's two years ago they got a new um a New Jersey and short
00:25:06
sponsor and it's grinder so it's grinder on their shorts and grinder on their
00:25:11
Jersey and um and I got these um and I got Texas from my friends that I played with and
00:25:20
veritz and the Remy mates like saying what have you done this was like a couple of years ago like
00:25:26
antiquesing like man you you'd have loved to be there now you would have got
00:25:30
a free script and all this premium subscription yes so um yeah uh it's quite yeah it was quite funny see
00:25:39
that especially it's plastered on the back of their shorts grinder oh how good
00:25:43
yo that's better than more FM on the on the Crusaders shorts isn't it um let's let's talk about your rugby
00:25:50
career so we were you like naturally good or did you just work really hard um I think it was probably it's probably
00:25:58
a combination of both but more so probably more hard work really I mean because I wasn't a big guy so I had to
00:26:06
um you know work hard to be big um I wasn't wasn't the most skilled person on the field so I kind of had to
00:26:14
find a position that that at the time wasn't as skill based as in um um you know with hand-eye coordination
00:26:23
but was more technical based and I found I was able to um pick up technique and and learn technical based things a lot
00:26:32
easier and and be able to strengthen my game through scrummaging and things like
00:26:37
that that's that's interesting so are you sort of saying you just had this um
00:26:41
like red hot burning desire to be a really good rugby player and you ideally you would have been like a I don't know
00:26:47
like a number 10 or something but you didn't have the skill so you just made
00:26:50
yourself big so you could get in the team somehow basically I just had this um desire and
00:26:58
um people knew that like coaches knew that all I wanted to do and and was play the game my parents knew and like for
00:27:05
example my dad would um if I didn't get a when I was younger if I if our games
00:27:11
were called off because of the rain or something like that I was just you know the worst kid to have in the house like
00:27:18
it's just denied me I'd hate to be around me and so my dad would um he was
00:27:23
obviously frustrated and angry and was like I've got to get this kid out of the
00:27:26
house and he would ring around friends and other grades higher and say oh he gone so-and-so do you need a player do
00:27:35
you need an extra one oh yeah you know we could yep okay I'll bring him down
00:27:39
straight away and then he games on the weekend when they were not lucky in um with the uh with the the um the
00:27:50
changing of position he's played number eight and then first the thing coach at
00:27:55
linderson Grant Gilbert and a polite way said that you know you're not going to be tall enough and
00:28:00
you're probably not going to be big enough to play number eight but and he said and you you need a little bit of
00:28:05
work on your skills but basically if I wasn't skillful enough to play number
00:28:09
eight he said um how about you try the front row and uh he said that would be probably something you'd enjoy and
00:28:16
handed me a a magazine that had done a feature article on the prop Jason Leonard who was a English prop and um he
00:28:25
was highly highly regarded as one of you know one of the best props in the business at the time and he had a big
00:28:32
article and and all these hints and techniques and all that and so I read that kind of back said yeah okay I'm
00:28:37
gonna do that and then just pursued it that is amazing it's an it's an unsexy
00:28:43
position isn't it you do all you do all the work and get zero Glory it is it's a horrible horrible job being
00:28:52
a prop that's an amazing God you and me are our chartered paths were very different um uh I am I was made to play
00:29:00
like um Barefoot rugby when I was a kid by my parents and I would just like we were a religious family
00:29:06
um and I would like pray to Jesus on Sunday morning that that they would they can't we'd listen to the cancellations
00:29:12
on the radio and I'd pray that it'd be canceled so I could stay at home in
00:29:14
front of a guest eater and watch what now you know I just I I hated it I had Pockets with shorts on mum the coach got
00:29:25
mum to sew them up because I was so cold I'd have my hands on my pockets you and
00:29:29
me very very different upbringings okay so so we was at Hawke's Bay Hawke's Bay
00:29:34
you grew up waipukurau out in the country um once did so it was about half an hour
00:29:40
out of waipuk right did you know did you know Israel dag and um um is that Guilford I think he was from
00:29:46
that area as well yeah about the same age as you no no they're a little bit older but I I did know Israel a little
00:29:53
bit because he went to the same school again to Linda's fun the same so we sort
00:29:57
of um I he was well I was well out of school by then but we sort of crossed paths on the few things in there and uh
00:30:04
yeah so um and Zach um I he was coming into the um Crusaders in Canterbury as a time I was just sort
00:30:12
of leaving so I said okay now I'm through Hawke's Bay connections or anything no no so so when did you start
00:30:18
like realizing you were really good and the prop thing was going to work for you
00:30:23
um yeah that's a good question I'm not too sure it's probably um it was probably like when I displayed
00:30:32
the first of Dean and at school and then made a few teams and um yeah I was making rip teams as a
00:30:41
prop um so yeah I sort of realizing ah yeah okay so this is this is working out um
00:30:49
but yeah yes that would have been you know maybe at school and that that I sort of thought this was going to
00:30:55
work out but but you know to be honest like even if I didn't make teams I still
00:30:59
would have kept pursuing it because I just had this I guess you call it a pig-headed attitude that um I'm gonna
00:31:07
make this work no matter what yeah that's amazing so um I guess you love rugby that much even
00:31:15
if you couldn't make it to the professional level you would have kept playing it but what would you been do
00:31:19
what would you have been doing what was Plan B um and so I didn't make rugby well I went
00:31:25
down I studied at Lincoln University um and I did a b com and valuation and Property Management you are way too
00:31:33
smart to be a problem all parts of snow yeah oh yeah you've got to defend your
00:31:40
type yeah yeah um and then so I suppose I would be pursuing would have pursued that a lot
00:31:46
more and um if not that then maybe um uh sit on a previous podcast and maybe I'd be working on some fishing
00:31:55
charters doing some fishing charters taking people deep sea fishing sounds like a pretty good job that doesn't
00:32:00
sound like a bad job isn't that what Cal heyman's doing could be yeah he's doing
00:32:04
something like that um all right so so you when did you so um you're in the Crusaders first was
00:32:09
that the first what was the case yeah so that was there oh so that was when you were still studying at Lincoln
00:32:15
uh yeah I was coming to the end of my uh my degree it was around I was 21 so I was just finishing up maybe graduating
00:32:23
yeah maybe maybe half a year or something to fix up yeah so what year was what year was that that you first
00:32:28
made Canterbury uh 21 or 22 around there uh no no 2001 and 2002 so okay so who who was the coach and who are you
00:32:38
playing was it Robbie Dean's no um so the first coach of Canterbury was was I think it was Aussie McLean
00:32:50
and I think in mallard and then also I think Rob Penny I can't remember it was a combination of those
00:32:59
three it was definitely Rob penny for the remainder of my time with Canterbury and then with the Crusaders was
00:33:07
um Robbie Dean's and um and that you was I think it was Don Hayes right and then Don Hayes
00:33:16
moved on and then Vern Cotter came in and was there for the three or four years and then I think Mark Hammett was
00:33:25
my last year and Robbie Deans was the constant yeah how was that how influential was he
00:33:30
on your career he was awesome like Robbie's a awesome coach he has he had an amazing
00:33:36
ability of bringing a team together like creating a culture theming of a team and
00:33:41
just getting everyone on the same page and everyone working towards the same goal
00:33:46
um so yeah no he's he was yeah he was incredible why why um what happened with
00:33:51
him in Australia why why did he suck so much over there was that intentional in his part do you think maybe maybe it was
00:33:58
a teacher yeah he's just a loyal guy um no I I don't I don't know and all I
00:34:07
can look at is that it was a combination because if you always look at the Australian super teams their
00:34:14
super teams actually do quite well and they've got really good players but for
00:34:18
some reason when you put them all together in the Australian team they they just don't it doesn't seem like
00:34:25
they gel together very well not as cohesive yeah which is it's kind of bizarre I
00:34:30
don't know yeah yeah tough tough tough time for Robbie and a tough gig to do but you know oh
00:34:38
and I remember at the time it was um the media made it out to be this like a huge
00:34:42
Grudge Match like um Ted versus Robbie didn't they it was like one coach against the other yeah which must have
00:34:47
been incredibly stressful for both of them oh exactly I mean his you know Robbie pursuing a
00:34:58
afternoon it wasn't given the opportunity with the All Blacks so we took another International job you know
00:35:04
which is you know everyone in their in their own Fields always want to pursue higher honors and pursue you know more
00:35:11
challenges um so yeah you just have to let people do that it's like players when they go
00:35:16
overseas they more or less want to go because they um you know need a new challenge neither your refreshing start
00:35:23
or you know or they want one to um you know just test test the waters in another competition so did you play did
00:35:32
you play with Scott razor Robertson was it did your careers overlap or was he before yeah
00:35:36
left and out in my in his last year or two years and then and when I was starting yeah right how was he what was
00:35:46
he like because you see him now as a coach and that I know the break dancing thing he keeps to a minimum now and I
00:35:51
really hope he doesn't lose that when he you know it's the the all black coach
00:35:55
because I think it's I think it's wonderful and beautiful I know there's
00:35:57
some old purists that you'll hear on TalkBack that you know say that he's not
00:36:01
fit to be a coach for that reason which is just dumb yeah so I can't imagine how
00:36:05
much fun he was as a player yeah no he was a great guy like he's all that energy that you see with him um with his
00:36:12
team and that you know as a player you could probably times that by 20 when he was a player he'd just so much energy
00:36:18
and so much you know life about him and just so positive um it's just yeah it's just incredible
00:36:25
and I I think it's a great opportunity and it's a great way that maybe New
00:36:31
Zealand Rugby and rugby public we can we can you know maybe put some life into the press press conferences after the
00:36:39
games unique character isn't it and um and the other thing is like I'm I'm
00:36:43
actually really happy for Scott and um because the other thing is is how hard he has worked to get where he has like I
00:36:51
don't think many people know like he would he would be he coached some of the
00:36:55
Rugby Club in um Christchurch for many years and he just learned his at the trade of coaching and turned up and
00:37:02
helped schools and he and he um helped the Canterbury team with tackling and that all in positions that you know
00:37:09
weren't paid he was just giving up his time to just just perfect his skill and
00:37:13
his ability and to pursue a you know a dream that he wanted was to you know be a professional coach and to be coaching
00:37:20
the Crusaders and and where he is now so you know it's it's it's just awesome to
00:37:26
see his dream and goals through hard work he's achieved it do you have any um old
00:37:32
memories about him that you're able to share is there anything that Springs to
00:37:35
mind no no you're closing ranks I reckon you've got something you're just not
00:37:40
sharing it no I don't have anything you've always got to be careful when you
00:37:45
share things because others have information oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it's an exchange
00:37:51
okay so you so you're um then separate you're in Canterbury and then the super
00:37:55
broke how many Super Rugby titles did you win uh three right yeah incredible hmm yeah what's that like winning your
00:38:04
first Super Rugby title yeah it's pretty good it's pretty cool like um yeah it's
00:38:10
it's an awesome feeling um yeah especially because you're you know you're doing something that all
00:38:14
your teammates and you have all brought into you've all bought into the same
00:38:18
idea you know we've all been on the same path the same you know the same road
00:38:22
you've gone through all the strain same struggles you know the pre-season the
00:38:26
you know the uh the trainings you know everything you've experienced highs and
00:38:31
lows and then you finally come out on top so um yeah it's really awesome yeah
00:38:36
because your your career has overlapped with some of the best New Zealand Rugby players that we've we've ever seen you
00:38:42
played with Dan and Richie as well yeah yeah no I was very lucky to um play with
00:38:46
so many good players and so many skillful players and that's it's funny because you play with good players and
00:38:52
they you know they make you look good yeah so so you that must have been early in Rich's career or sort of in the
00:38:59
middle of his career he's in the same like Richie he was you know around the same age so it was
00:39:04
um yeah around the same age we played age grade together as well under 19s and Colts and he's in under 21s as well so
00:39:12
um yeah all in the same same age group I'm not even going to ask you if you've
00:39:15
got any Richie stories because I I think I saw this and maybe this was in his movie Chasing great or maybe it
00:39:22
was in the Dan Carter movie but Dan was then said somewhere on the record that the only conversations he ever had with
00:39:28
Richie when they were in the All Blacks together were rugby related he was like that hyper fixated on his job as Captain
00:39:35
and the job in hand was that your experience with Richie I yeah no he was um yeah he's super focused and and you
00:39:42
know and and such a role model such a leader that um you can only but you only you only can be in inspired and
00:39:51
motivated by him um yeah so yeah he's a really amazing guy yeah incredible one of the best right
00:39:59
yeah and in terms of like how I'm staying fit after Korea like you and him are probably two of the fittest right in
00:40:05
terms of like like trimming down and uh looking like Shadows of your former self
00:40:10
um yeah no I I I'd say he'd be a lot fitter than me he's out doing adventure
00:40:14
running and racing and all that um you know I don't I don't tend to get out and
00:40:18
do that too much what do you do these days what are you doing to keep in shape looks like you hit the gym a little bit
00:40:22
I do yeah a little bit of gym um yeah that's that's that's really about it and then um just don't eat so
00:40:30
much to be a problem you have to eat a lot of food yeah yeah um well especially for me it was an
00:40:37
incredible amount of food like I used to have to sit in the um an alarm at midnight and have a and
00:40:44
drink a protein shake in the you know in the middle of the night just to try and
00:40:48
keep the weight we're in like on on game week or just all every day like actually yeah I didn't I didn't go out
00:40:57
to the kitchen and use the blender and blend it up and wake up the whole house oh you had it made and sitting next to
00:41:03
the bed or yeah you still take protein now uh yeah a little bit just after German there but uh not too much I've
00:41:09
sort of drifted away from eating so much it's uh yeah it's been quite relaxing
00:41:14
not even to uh shove food into your mouth every two hours oh I bet I'm not sure what you
00:41:20
take now but Radix nutrition do some of the best proteins on the on the market and I highly swear by the banana and the
00:41:27
coconut flavor in particular I'll tell you what we'll get you some thank you
00:41:30
thank you they sponsored the podcast so yeah so what does an average day look like when you're when you're a prop in
00:41:35
terms of diet so protein shake at midnight well we probably started yeah the breakfast I used to start with
00:41:44
um oatmeal porridge and two boiled eggs and a protein shake and then go after training then at training we've got
00:41:54
snacks throughout the day throughout the training morning so you've got you probably have another protein shake in
00:42:01
there as well plus plus um some tuna and crackers I think is always there and then
00:42:09
um via lunch um there'll be chicken or some sort of protein made to end with some carbs and
00:42:18
then there'd probably be another Shake just to add another level to it and then
00:42:23
um another snack in the afternoon and then dinner God I'm exhausted I feel sick just
00:42:34
hearing another snack before bed and be in bed and then wake up and have a protein shake oh my God that's awful so
00:42:42
so who are you flirting with at the time uh Karen Reid mentioned you were fighting with Scott
00:42:46
um Scott Hamilton yeah so that would have been 2002 it was Scott Hamilton and um big uh
00:42:55
Kevin O'Neill Kevin O'Neill was a crusader lock and and all black um yeah we used the NutriBullet must
00:43:02
have been getting a workout in that plant yeah yeah it was amazing okay and then
00:43:09
um so um how many did we decide three three Super Rugby titles which is phenomenal
00:43:14
and then um the all black career all black number 1056 yeah and again as I said before when I went to boys High um
00:43:22
about a thousand boys there apparently zero boys were gay at that time so the All Blacks as well you'd
00:43:28
have to assume out of you know your the first to come out openly as gay at number 1056 but there must have been
00:43:34
many many more before then but for whatever reason well yeah but the time wasn't right statistics are an
00:43:40
interesting thing but you know you can't hang your hat on them I mean yeah it
00:43:45
could have been a you know you could I could it might not have been one you know they might not they might not keep
00:43:51
tomorrow not continued playing the sport or something like that yeah that's true
00:43:54
you know reality um yeah it could be only one but um as you said statistically speaking not
00:44:02
true it might be me yeah and so um do you remember that moment like we are you in the all black frame like hey do you
00:44:10
feel like you're a you're a shot when this election's announced how does that
00:44:13
happen what's that moment must be a bloody special moment yeah yeah it was so it was in Napier and we just um done
00:44:19
the all black trial you know I think it was the possible exist the probables that's right back in the day yeah so
00:44:25
that was back in 2005 and we'd done the trial match I remember coming off the the game thinking oh yeah
00:44:32
no I ran around had a I thought I'd had a pretty good game and um who were you
00:44:39
marking who was your opposite I was like giving me a lovely maybe no I would keep no I think Kevin no Kevin was
00:44:46
in my in my team he was the hooker for the team and I was rooming with Kevin actually
00:44:52
yeah and yeah I've roomed with them that um that whole week I think and then I
00:44:58
think so it might have been Carl Hof came on and said I can't remember who was
00:45:03
and it's all quite a blur but um the um the naming was um after after the game
00:45:10
all the players are in the from both teams are in a room and the um they name the team the all black
00:45:18
Squad to the players oh immediately afterwards yeah it was like three out of two hours like you had something to eat
00:45:25
and you went back to hotels or all the air and they were all gathered and then they just named the team it must be
00:45:29
around about I don't know 11 and a half past 11 at night and they said look this
00:45:34
is you know this Squad and these are the people who are going to Auckland for the
00:45:38
to prepare the rest you will be going to your your home destinations it's like an
00:45:44
episode of X Factor isn't it yeah yeah it is and um and you know we're not
00:45:49
publicly announcing it until tomorrow so don't say the media or anyone but you
00:45:53
can tell your loved ones and that so yeah that was how that happened was that sort of pre-social must have been
00:45:58
pre-social media I feel like they wouldn't have that sort of level of trust now no no way yeah there's no one
00:46:02
you know no one's Snapchatting at all posting it on Instagram well so okay so
00:46:08
you find out there must be an exciting moment and then um what happened who do you tell who are
00:46:12
your loved ones that you tell well because it was a Napier um obviously my parents were because I
00:46:18
came from that my parents are there so I I went and um went around to mum and Dad's and and I and I told told them and
00:46:25
again it was just um it was almost like I told them we'd uh run out of milk it
00:46:31
was just I just underwhelming again oh my God what gets those people excited uh yeah it was yeah mum was probably
00:46:40
more happier than dead and dead mum gave me a you know a hug and and Dad um famously he
00:46:47
um carried on talking about um that I remember the topic because he carried on talking about the the reason
00:46:53
why the Ducks aren't breeding down by the by the ponds is because all these people keep feeding them bread and and
00:47:00
Mum was like oh you know your son just your son's just made you all blend it
00:47:04
was like yes yes it's amazing as you did it is he a farmer yeah okay it sounds like a farmer
00:47:12
it's hard to get them I'm impressed about anything oh yeah I know he wasn't
00:47:15
he was impressed right and then but actually when I talk about this to them they they they they they claim that that
00:47:23
wasn't how it happened like no we heard you we you know it was not like that we
00:47:28
were excited I was like oh yeah yeah just like how I told you I was gay no we were like that how many um you're you're
00:47:36
one of how many kids I've got two older brothers and uh ones right and yet have
00:47:41
you seen your parents get like emotional about in it like when your sister got married I'm assuming she's got married
00:47:46
does your dad cry or does he have you ever seen him show emotion um but I think guys like like all I'm
00:47:53
basing this on is my uncle John who's a Dairy Farmer like he was very very stoic
00:47:57
like the hardest man you could ever meet but as he got older he got soft around the edges and shows a bit of
00:48:02
vulnerability now oh yeah no no he's old he's he's definitely shows a bit of
00:48:07
emotion now but when was the last time he told you he loves you as an emotional guy like that oh yeah
00:48:13
yeah but that even that um I mean because we're a family we didn't really
00:48:17
say that and we always knew you know it was always unspoken it was unspoken you didn't have to but then and then um but
00:48:24
I think yeah mum always wanted us to say it and then um one day I think dad said it and then I said it back and
00:48:32
then I was like oh finally and I said well Dad said he said it first yeah maybe is
00:48:47
[Laughter] actions speak louder than words as they say okay so so you make the All Blacks
00:49:09
um is your first test against uh Fiji or the Lions yeah I've got a question to
00:49:13
ask you so you can't you you didn't start you came on yes late in the game
00:49:17
how many minutes did you play I think it came on for about 30 minutes okay all right okay so you
00:49:24
played almost half the game the All Blacks won that game 91-0 how did you manage to not score a try well I think
00:49:31
this comes back in the position I was playing in a prop and uh the Greek some of them and Kevin me allow me they
00:49:36
scored in that game yeah yeah yeah they yeah they were gifted those tries I think they helped set them up yeah so
00:49:44
what's um what's that like your first all black game um is your stomach churning are you like
00:49:50
yeah no it's um all I can sum it up is this with what you know just pure excitement for me it was just pure
00:49:56
excitement just you know here here was the um the the um the black Jersey that I'd um being wanting and striving for
00:50:05
for so long was just in my hands finally in my hands you know and and as this absolute excitement what's what's that
00:50:12
ritual you get the Jersey is it the day before the morning of no I this one was it was um hanging up in your locker as
00:50:21
you come in to the um stadium so when you come into the stadium you see your locker your um your number where you sit
00:50:28
and it's it's there yeah and when you when you're not starting do you do you get to go out and you get to
00:50:35
go and Sing the anthem you don't do the Haka though and put your tracksuit back on and sit
00:50:44
down are you and hindsight are you happy with your hacker performance um room for improvement yeah there's
00:50:50
always room through but it's got to be the scariest thing like Rugby's rugby is
00:50:55
what you do and it's an instinct thing right and you you've earned that spot
00:50:58
and you've earned the Jersey but then you have to learn the Haka and I'm
00:51:01
guessing that doesn't necessarily come naturally yeah well it's knows the Haka and I did know
00:51:11
committee but for for the life of me and why it had to be when I made the All Blacks they decided to bring in the new
00:51:18
hacker and they had to learn a whole new one so and I'm you know dancing in coordination is not my best thing any
00:51:26
you know any given moment and so I had my head right okay I've got comedy down
00:51:31
so we should be able to get through this and next minute they go oh we're gonna
00:51:35
you learn a new one the cup of the name of it is but we're going to do the new
00:51:41
Haka and we're all going to learn it and I was just like oh no another thing to
00:51:46
learn any dance moves how am I gonna learn this I'm watching it yeah they hide you in the back somewhere yeah they
00:51:52
did you know we had these um Haka um Haka trainings in there in the evenings and that and then you know the not so
00:52:01
good kids had to stay behind and do extras and then the not so goods from that group had to do extras and then
00:52:07
size yeah I was running into the midnight still learning where is your roommate can you remember
00:52:12
who your roommate was for that Festival that game um yeah it was um Anton Oliver all right
00:52:18
right yeah well what and what are your Recollections and memories from that first sort of all black camper and that
00:52:24
first game um just yeah I was just excitement I mean um it was just one of the most you know
00:52:32
intense intense trainings this is how how intense training was like it would go for like 40 minutes just so sharp
00:52:40
fast bang boom done on the bus you know and just the the pressure not the pressure but just the desire by everyone
00:52:49
to actually fine-tune their skills and their ability so so they don't let the
00:52:54
team down or don't let your teammates down yeah yeah it's just it's pretty
00:52:58
special yeah that's amazing who was coach at the time was that Wayne Smith no no uh Wayne Smith was here uh it was
00:53:04
um Graeme Henry and Wayne Smith Graham Henry Steve Hansen right wow wow oh yeah three of the goats yeah yeah
00:53:11
unbelievable and so it's okay so so back then to do um do they know about your
00:53:17
sexuality do all the players know is it like the an elephant in the room like Looking Back Now is an elf in the room
00:53:22
sort of thing or does everyone know and it's just unspoken yeah a few people
00:53:25
knew um not probably not everyone yeah you just confide in some people yeah just
00:53:30
confined some people and then people just keep private and then and to be honest
00:53:34
like that that environment just so focused on the upcoming game and that there's there's no time to think about
00:53:44
anything else it's just full-on rugby which is awesome you know but um yeah but there's just absolutely no time to
00:53:52
to dwell or you know you worry about that yeah come on good for you yeah learn the [ __ ] hacker yeah
00:54:01
Bingo don't even worry about that yeah um you can so okay so you can find in
00:54:06
some people and they're fine with it does does does that not give you like the
00:54:11
comfort and security to think okay if I if I come out now publicly it'll you
00:54:15
know everyone's going to be okay with it no um no not not for me because I was still
00:54:27
at the time um and I still was uneasy about it you know in my own self like I still wasn't
00:54:34
100 you know happy with me as that person so to come out publicly would have been a
00:54:42
massive step that I probably wouldn't have been able to do at the time did it
00:54:49
um take its toll on your mental health over the years like hang on to the secret or not really I touched upon
00:54:55
therapy before and you said you've never done any therapy yeah no I don't think
00:54:59
it it did I I I kind of turned it into more of a driving force and the way that um if I had a bad game
00:55:09
I'd blame it on my gay side or it's because I was gay I'd blame it that and
00:55:15
that would you know motivate me to train harder so in a real strange sense it became like a driving force behind me to
00:55:23
to um to achieve what I what I what I wanted but as you all know that's that's
00:55:29
unhealthy yeah it's really unhealthy and it's never going to end well you know
00:55:33
yeah it's like like running away from it in a way yeah yeah so um so there's that
00:55:37
and that that would be why I decided to um you know come out to a few people so I could get that off and and clear that
00:55:45
up and move forward with it which is um has been better yeah awesome because there's a lot better ways to motivate
00:55:54
yourself whatever works no I know you're a self-loading not the best way isn't it Richie didn't get to
00:56:03
140 I test myself loathing um oh yes I think you have two other tests against um the the British um uh
00:56:10
Alliance um so I'm Beijing in your and you're all black career three games yeah
00:56:15
yeah what are you what are your collections of those games um the British and Iris Lions was
00:56:19
incredible like just the whole um campaign was amazing um is that when um Johnny Wilkinson was
00:56:25
in the tech what could someone's on the table was like the best best player in
00:56:27
the world at the time yeah and and it was the it was it was I guess the litmus test for the
00:56:36
um New Zealand for hosting the World Cup was to be able to see if we could handle
00:56:41
the infrastructures and systems and our our stadiums could handle you know the British and Irish lines would then that
00:56:48
you know help us to host the World Cup yeah so it was it was it was really really awesome like and the people that
00:56:55
came out from you know the United Kingdom was incredible and then just being able to test yourself in that um
00:57:02
in that field um against you know the best of the United Kingdom and and Ireland you know
00:57:09
as um was um pretty special yeah absolutely and the three jerseys um did you you
00:57:15
swap them or you still have them now what have you done I still have them yeah um they're at home um my parents
00:57:21
have them so um yeah yeah I didn't framed framed on a wall or in a box somewhere or
00:57:30
framed and it sits in the wardrobe what do you mean in the wardrobes and the closet
00:57:37
yeah it's not allowed to come out it'll come out when it's gone already yeah is
00:57:42
taking his time don't rush these things yeah yeah um yeah and that's and the um the other
00:57:51
jerseys are in the um and a I think they're on a chest I think yeah amazing they mean something to you or yeah yeah
00:57:58
yeah yeah it's always nice to have a look and see them and what do you think when you look
00:58:10
at them just like is it like a like a [ __ ] here moment or a holy [ __ ] these are mine yeah yeah it's just
00:58:18
you just sort of think about the time and and how good it was and and um yeah and how awesome you know the All Blacks
00:58:27
are in New Zealand Rugby and things like that and yeah it's a pretty like I think
00:58:31
you were pretty fortunate pretty pretty cool country it's really cool to hear
00:58:35
that they mean that much to you even after all these years yeah um so I suppose there's two ways of
00:58:40
looking at it you could you could think I'm I'm bloody lucky because I had this
00:58:43
opportunity and I've got three all black test jerseys or you could think I'm
00:58:48
unlucky because I've only got three all black test users is there part of you
00:58:52
that thinks like that um oh yeah they always will be alive yeah yeah there's always that
00:58:59
um rig you know I just regret that you that I didn't reset my goals that I didn't um you know
00:59:06
um reset my goals to go to to stay and and and and be a be a be a great all black and and not just be happy to have
00:59:14
made it um you know because I fell into that trap of of you know probably complacency
00:59:19
I'd made the team and then I was like oh team yep made it done cool good job
00:59:25
Daddy yeah yeah you went to sleep and then you know next thing kids having a conversation to you telling you that uh
00:59:31
you're not coming back next week wow what did you play a bad game or no so it
00:59:37
was the end of the uh the lion series and um they um have a meeting with in had a meeting with me saying you know
00:59:45
these are the things we want you to go away and work on we're building for a
00:59:50
World Cup and you know we want to probably have a look at a few other players but we need you to work on these
00:59:55
things I want you to go back to your provincial Union and work on those and we'll address it in the future yeah
01:00:02
right and you you went away and you you didn't address the things or oh no yeah
01:00:06
you go away and try and address them yeah and then um you know um but here yeah and then it comes down
01:00:13
to the selector's choice and and that so you do everything that's in your power
01:00:17
and but it's yeah um yes I heard um I think it was an interview with um um Beaver Stephen Donald
01:00:24
um and he talked about because you mentioned the great all black thing and he said oh when you become an all black
01:00:27
they they start drumming into you that you you should strive to be a great all black and he said the first time here
01:00:33
that he's looking around the room and he sees Dan Carter and he sees Aaron cruden
01:00:36
and whoever else he goes well I'm [ __ ] I'm never going to be a great all black
01:00:40
yeah that's a great all there yeah yeah yeah yeah we have a lot to thank 100 we
01:00:47
do um and so what's Graham Henry like is he intimidating to be around it like when
01:00:52
he walks into the room do you find yourself um you feel like a school boy at school that's setting up for the
01:00:57
school principal or is he quite friendly and um he's very friendly very approachable and
01:01:03
um yeah yeah He commands respect when he comes into a room and um and everyone you know
01:01:09
listens and and does what he what he tells you but um he's a he's a great guy
01:01:14
yeah who would be you you have like a best coach or a favorite coach through your career who's been the most
01:01:20
influential um Robbie Rob Kinney um in Canterbury he was he was very um influential in my career as as well
01:01:37
because he was also he was a forged coach as well so he um yeah he helped me a lot with just um General awareness
01:01:45
around the field and things like that so um yeah I I actually think every every coach I've I've had has had their own
01:01:55
um um own bit of influence influence in in my in my career and the way I played um
01:02:04
and because I think I was very fortunate to have some you know countless amazing
01:02:09
coaches and and um they've all you know influenced influenced the way I've
01:02:15
played and certain aspects um um um really well with me and and I've been um you know lucky enough to be able to
01:02:24
to get that knowledge and being fortunate enough to be able to absorb that knowledge and take it on board yeah
01:02:31
and one thing people give you give you the knowledge and that is the other thing is to accept and take it on board
01:02:37
isn't it yeah I mean it's incredible that like yeah you think the coaches
01:02:40
you've had and the players that you've been surrounded by like some of the best
01:02:43
that the world has ever seen in the sport yeah it's incredible yeah and lucky and um outside of rugby like how
01:02:51
does the house the second half of your life looking for you do you want to you have to get married at some point
01:02:57
see how things go I guess um you know see how things track along um but yeah outside at the moment things
01:03:05
are going pretty well you know um lost pretty good when um what about a family at some point
01:03:12
obviously that comes with like you know a set of hurdles and things yeah I I've parked that much and um yeah not
01:03:23
too sure about that one never really thought about that I mean um yeah I yeah I've had fertility struggles so I can't
01:03:28
have kids of my own so yeah I always sort of imagined that I'd have my own family and then you know when it doesn't
01:03:34
happen you have to sort of reframe the second part of your life but I suppose um being a gay male maybe like you've
01:03:39
never even sort of like thought about kids you just assumed it wouldn't be part of the plan
01:03:43
um out of my life I did assume that it wouldn't be a part of the plan but obviously you know the way the world is
01:03:55
now and there's so many different Avenues you can explore with um you know having kids whether it be adopting kids
01:04:02
or or so what you know I think there's so many more um ways it can be possible
01:04:07
so yeah 100 and if anyone's listening to this that's um like you know young or
01:04:13
youngish or actually actually even old and sort of grappling with their sexuality like they they know they're
01:04:18
gay and that they haven't told anyone and they're not sure like how to go
01:04:21
about it like what would your message be um my my message would be just pretty much like it's um there's no there's no
01:04:29
rules or there's no law about coming out like you don't have to if you don't if
01:04:35
you don't feel it's right then you don't have to do it but if you feel like you
01:04:39
you need to do it because you're you're under anxiety or stress um then then then look around and and
01:04:46
find you know someone that you think is safe or someone you can confide in and even if it's just telling that that one
01:04:53
person that one person might be enough for you and if that's all you tell and
01:04:57
and for the rest of your life then that's fine that's your decision but if
01:05:00
you want to pursue and tell more people then um yeah Do It um and always make sure it's on your terms and and and and
01:05:09
your best interest not on what other people want or if other people are pushing you yeah yeah has everything
01:05:15
been done on your tips yeah yeah yeah in in hindsight like things have played out
01:05:20
pretty good would you have done anything different if you could rewind the clock
01:05:24
um no no I don't know I don't I don't think so it's all just yes
01:05:30
you know it kind of is what it is and it's all been taken with such um um so that's
01:05:37
such love and respect and and and and support has just been phenomenal so um yeah I don't think I don't think we
01:05:45
could have even painted you know described a scenario or mapped it out like this so it's it's been really um
01:05:53
humbling yeah has there been any sort of negativity or anything um not that I can recall I mean there's
01:06:00
always there's always some need of it but you'd have to be you'd have to be a
01:06:04
special sort of person though wouldn't you yeah but you know and yeah people have the
01:06:19
and it comes down to timing as well like yeah process things and and that so oh are you just sorry just
01:06:27
like yeah just an afterthought so yeah what we what were your thoughts or what was going through your mind a couple of
01:06:32
years ago when the um Israel for loud stuff was going on yeah I can't really remember that with
01:06:39
that what was going on because I was in um I was in Europe so it didn't really I
01:06:44
remember a friend text me something about it but um yeah it's I suppose if you missed the whole news cycle here
01:06:50
yeah yeah so but you know that's um yeah it's people's uh it's people's opinions and that which
01:06:58
were you know we kind of always going to have so that's just what it what is yeah
01:07:05
kind of I like it you're kind you're so cruisy about these things eh like
01:07:09
there's there's a lot of a lot of other people myself included they'd be more
01:07:12
outraged on your behalf like for anyone that's got like a negative reaction to
01:07:16
it because it's like why do you [ __ ] care yeah but you know you can focus on that one person we can
01:07:23
focus on the 100 or 200 other great messages and support and stories that people tell you I mean for me it's it's
01:07:30
so much easier to go through a hundred great messages and reply to 100 messages data from about support then sit down
01:07:39
and reply to one about there's been negative so I don't even it doesn't even
01:07:43
cross my mind even look at that yeah but it's as no human nature that it's the
01:07:47
negative one that jumps out from the page um I sort of find that along with comments on my Instagram feed it's like
01:07:53
nice message nice message nice pictures mean message and it's like what and then
01:07:57
suddenly I'm stalking their profile and yeah well yeah I for me no no I mean and I I'm a little bit wide
01:08:06
the other way I see like a negative messages like well we really are trying we really are reaching people like if
01:08:13
they've taken their time and it's something they're not interested in and
01:08:16
they've taken the time to put a post up then we've really made it we've really
01:08:21
made it this is good yeah just keep going and were there any um out of the thousands of messages of love and
01:08:29
support that you got after doing the seven sharp thing with it like any messages that like stand out in a sort
01:08:33
of like imprinted in your in your mind that they had that sort of impact on you um yeah there were a few and and the
01:08:39
main um underlining tone of those messages were people that um had stopped playing
01:08:46
a sport that they loved and and and and were really passionate about for the reasons that they didn't feel safe they
01:08:52
didn't feel accepted in that Sport and and their message their their you know
01:08:57
story was that now after my coming out and my story it's given them you know um
01:09:05
a little bit of Faith back into Sport and they're actually going to look at maybe watching it and becoming a fan
01:09:12
again of that sport or even participating again and that's really cool to see that people actually now
01:09:18
thinking oh okay you know I left a sport that I loved and enjoyed so much because
01:09:23
of my sexuality but now I think I can go back to it and and and and really start
01:09:28
enjoying it again and that's something pretty cool oh it's powerful stuff do
01:09:32
you hope we get to the point in your lifetime where people don't even have to
01:09:36
come out um yeah yeah University yesterday um in their Sociology class I think and we coined the the the fact about
01:09:56
normalizing it and we looked at you know for an example how back in the 30s or 40
01:10:01
years ago you know you saw um you know the the wife or the woman in the kitchen doing most of the cooking
01:10:08
yeah and now you see men and the kids and everyone cooking and it's because of
01:10:13
you know we've seen the steady normalization of that like guys are in the kitchen cooking so we'll see that
01:10:18
happen with the sexuality as well I believe you'll see just just the normalization as people that are you
01:10:24
know growing up even when they go through schools now they're seeing more of it and more of it so it's coming very
01:10:30
normal so yeah yeah as doing this interview in late January opened a new chapter of um of sort of life for you
01:10:36
like you mentioned doing a speech in Christchurch she said I've seen you on social media you know rubbing shoulders
01:10:40
with Ruby Tui she's wonderful she's an awesome awesome human being did you know
01:10:45
it before this um yeah yeah just and so much so much life and she's got such a great smile she lights up a
01:10:57
whole room she's just incredible um but yeah and I were doing a little bit of work around that sort of stuff
01:11:03
and just helping out and getting out there and um and and sort of just um sort of continuing the vibe of just
01:11:11
awareness and openness and a caring vibe that you know and Sport you know he can
01:11:17
still have that combat that that that competitive that um their die-hard attitude on the field but you know off
01:11:23
the field you you can be um you can be vulnerable you can be open and and if you're aware to what your teammates are
01:11:31
going through you know it would actually make you stronger on the field yeah well I reckon let's play a good way to
01:11:37
finish I love it awesome Campbell Johnston CJ thank you so much for coming over today
01:11:42
man it's really nice to finally meet you and sit down with you and thanks for
01:11:45
being so open with your stories yeah that's all right so we're good thank you
01:11:48
thank you very much for having me it's awesome I really appreciate it man changing lives
01:11:57
I hope your dad's happy I hope the Ducks are leading the bread anymore yeah awesome thank you
01:12:06
[Music] thank you [Music]