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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in to Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize [music] their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. Maximize. Generate. putting
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performance first. >> Martin Snedden, welcome to my podcast. >> Oh, thank you, Dom.
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>> I appreciate you being here. >> I love being here. >> Yeah. Really?
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>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I can't um Okay, I'm going to drop any sort of facade of
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[ __ ] here. Um you and I, we've had had some meetings over the years, like just briefly sort of in passing. So, I
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was um somehow I ended up as what you'd call CEO of Dookco events with Dave Higgins and Dean Lonigan.
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>> Why they ever called it CEO, I don't know because I'm sitting in the same
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office as the two of them. There's no chance I'm in charge. >> And um so we were running all these
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events and you were popping up in the middle of it. So, we got I remember sitting on a plane with you one day. We
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were flying one place to another and you told me a bit of your life story. Um >> uh was good. Yeah. So, we've got a bit
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of history. >> Yeah. But I I've never told you this until now, but um when I was I suppose
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seven or eight years old, that's when you made the New Zealand cricket team.
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And um that was uh that was that was a like a life-defining period for me. That was probably when I was like a peak into
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my cricket. So, you were one of my heroes. You weren't my alltime hero. That was Lance Ken. I had the Excalibur
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bat. >> Um but I was a big Martin Sneden fan as a kid. >> Yeah. No. Um a lot of ladies have told
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me that since. So I also knew it at the time but wasn't the case. There was a
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great period in the 80s. I mean we might talk about that but >> yeah 100% >> great history great great great memories
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>> and and you mentioned um Dooko events which is um in terms of your career a
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very small part of it um but I spoke to Dean Lonigan on Friday um and this is what he said. Martin is very considered
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and never made any rash decisions. He always thinks things through carefully and is just a really good bloke. when he
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came to Duke, we didn't need a third entrepreneur. We needed someone with great with a great management mind and
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that was Martin Sneeden. >> Yeah. I listen, I didn't know what I was walking into. Um
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but from a distance, I had looked at those two guys and I admired what they had done. They were risk takers, big
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risktakers. And Dino's right that they needed someone in the middle that was a
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little bit less of a total risk taker. And um but I had seen them do stuff that mainstream sport wouldn't do, wouldn't
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take the risk on, wouldn't have the drive, and that really interested me. And then stepping into the middle of it,
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wow, it was an I could only last for two years [laughter] with them, but [clears throat] it was it was a
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memorable two years full of great stuff and the odd bloody disaster, but but you
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know, most of it great stuff. And so I came away and I came away with an admiration for those two cuz I often
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hear them slagged off by others and I stop people when they're doing that and
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say, "No, no, you've got this wrong. You don't know these people. >> They're different than each other. You
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don't put them together and and sort of categorize them as the same. They're
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completely different than each other." [snorts] >> Um, but they're bloody hardworking.
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>> Well, David is when he's when he's on the game and Dino is the whole time. And
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once they decide to do something, they move heaven and earth to try and make it work. And sometimes they achieve stuff
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that all the big sports with all their money simply couldn't do. And that's,
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you know, that's why they've got my admiration. And um but it was an interesting ride. [laughter]
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>> Yeah, they they end up having quite an acronomous split, but um I've got great
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admiration for both of them, I think. Did you were you like a a handbrake? Like some of your ideas you wanted to
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shut them down? >> Dino's right. He's been a bit polite with that that explanation, but I was a
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wee bit of a handbrake. Not a not overly successful, mind you. Um Dino used to label me Mr. Negative. Um, [laughter]
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and it and it probably was because, you know, as they would come up with ideas, which they did every single day,
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uh, I would point out some of the obstacles and, um, they would look at me and think, "Oh, you you bloody negative
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bastard." And, uh, why don't you just let us get on with it? And most of the
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time, I had no choice. I had to. And then so what I'd do is try and work on those obstacles and those negatives just
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to mitigate them and and remove them if I could. Um but they achieved stuff, you know, they
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were ahead of their time. They still are, you know, you see when they split up and it was acrimonious and sad for
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me. um they sort of had to reinvent themselves and and so David, you know, has gone off and and I don't see either
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of them, no, for no reason other than their paths don't cross >> and um I see what they do and I think,
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well, good on you. You're still you're still ahead of the game. >> Oh, 100%.
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>> So, that makes up a very small part of your sports admin career. So, there's a
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playing career which went for like a decade and then there's this been this incredible sports admin career. If you
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had to pick one, um, yeah, what are you more proud of? >> Uh, Rugby World Cup.
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>> Funny. Okay. The admin side, >> considering I've been in cricket,
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>> yeah, >> most of my life, >> uh, outside of family stuff, it's the
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Rugby World Cup. I think cuz >> it was so huge for New Zealand that had risk all over the top of it. I knew that
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if we stuffed up, the organization I was leading that was delivering it stuffed up, my career was probably not going to
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recover or take a long time to recover. So, you felt that pressure the whole time and the people that that were
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involved with us, the government, New Zealand rugby never let that pressure uh subside in the whole four years that we
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had to prepare for the thing. But the cooperation we got from right across the country, not just within sport, but
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right across the country uh was spectacular. We set it up, you know, we we did it well to get that support. Um
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but when people committed to it, they came in guns and all and it was just fantastic to see the whole country
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activate and um you know and then it came off and we knew it was going to come off unless there was going to be
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some unforeseen disaster. But it just was a a brilliant event. And then Dom it was a great lesson in life because you
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know we had the fanf fair. It culminated at Eden Park around the corner with with
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the an unbelievable final and not in the way that we expected it to be, but it sort of got there, you know, they got
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there and the event was topped off by that. And then 3 days later, everyone's
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moved on. Everyone else has moved on and those of us that had spent our lives doing this were sort of sitting there in
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our offices looking around thinking, "No one cares about us anymore. You even
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wrote a book about it. >> Yeah, I did. >> Actually, I've got a whole whole card
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about the 2011 Rugby World Cup. So, we'll get into that. Um, just a couple of quickfire ones. Um, yeah. What's the
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most money you've ever heard of in one negotiation and your various roles? You
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>> Oh, it's it's um it's in cricket and it's to do with India. You know, in the
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world of cricket, Indian broadcast money is mindboggling. And about 3 years ago, what what happens
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is all the countries give their their broadcasting rights into a pool in the middle and the International Cricket
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Council, the ICC then sells those rights. And you know about six, seven years ago, they sold the rights to
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Cricket World Cups, those sorts of events for I think it was about 2 billion US.
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But then 3 years later, they sold the same rights for a 4-year period instead of an 8-year period for 3.6 billion. And
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you know, you're sitting in New Zealand looking at this firstly thinking, Yahoo,
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we get a share of that. Um, but secondly thinking, wow, that's just extraordinary. Um, so yeah,
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>> that's absurd money. It is. >> I was um Yeah, cuz I was wondering when
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I when I when I wrote that question down, I was thinking, what would it be? would have it be some sort of cricket
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negotiation would have been one of the early Parker fights you know I was thinking maybe a million couple of
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million I wasn't expecting billions >> no and um so those in in Indian cricket
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that's the money you're dealing with which on the one hand is great for those
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like New Zealand cricket that are sharing in it on the other hand uh it creates an enormous challenge to the
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future of cricket >> speaking of cricket um toughest bowler you ever faced
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uh was Macan and Waka Ununas, the two Pakistani guys who uh were just listen I wasn't much of a batsman. Every so often
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I had a day but but really I was there as a bowler. So the expectations of everyone else were fairly low when I was
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batting. So um there wasn't a huge amount of pressure but apart from what I put on myself but facing those two guys
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I just didn't have a clue. You know, it's sort of everyone else you sort of
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try and work out and you, you know, maybe do okay, maybe not, but usually you feel like um you got a chance. Not
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against these guys. Didn't have a chance in hell. >> What about the toughest batter you ever
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bowled to? >> One summer in Australia, David Gow got going and he just slaughtered everyone,
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including me. I think he picked on me. Um and so [laughter] and so um you know that was a bit
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daunting. Um but it only lasted for a summer. You know I played against him plenty of times over the 10 years and
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that was that was his summer and every other time you know it was a little bit more even. I mean he was far better than
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I was but at least I had a chance >> whereas that summer I was out of my depth. [snorts]
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>> Um we've only been going about 10 minutes. I think this sets the platform
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for what's going to be a great chat. Um it's like a a tappers version of what
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we're getting into like just an incredible life and um top level sport and uh top level business as well. First
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of all, let's go all the way back. Um so yeah, earliest memories. >> Uh [clears throat] youngest of five, you
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know, brought up around the corner in Mount Eden. Um sport mad family, luckily three older brothers and a sister. Um
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and so you know playing in the backyard as the youngest of that lot um that's
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what I remember and then just sort of gradually you know that emerging um into into actually formal playing of cricket
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and rugby and and uh tried to hand some other sports but in those days you know it was really only cricket and rugby
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that was available. the school system and whatnot, they actually actively dissuaded people from playing football
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or >> rugby league or other stuff like that. And so that's what it was. And uh I was
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just lucky. I mean, I think the beneficiary of being the youngest in a in a group of um sports mad siblings
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paid off. >> Who I I there were times where I'd pretend to be Martin Snedden or Lance
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Kins or Richard Hadley. Um who did you pretend to be? Well, I had a pretty active imagination and and um quite
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often as well as what I talked about before, I'd be out in the backyard playing um playing sport by myself with
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pretending I was in test matches or this or that. And um funnily enough, Australian cricketers were the ones cuz
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I'd you know, shortwave radio can remember listening to in those days listening to
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cricket from Australia. It was always on shortwave and you know the sound of well probably
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people don't remember the sound of that. [laughter] >> What's shortwave like am radio? No.
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>> Oh yeah. Well this was actually shortwave and um uh I just fell in love
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with the picture in my mind of Ian Chapel, Doug Walders, Lily came along um those sort of people. And so that for me
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that was the in inspiration around cricket. it. I couldn't believe that years later I was actually playing
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against those guys out on the Sydney cricket ground or Melbourne cricket ground. I mean, gez.
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>> But anyway, that's that's what sort of fired it up. And then in the winter it
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was all blacks, all blacks, all blacks, you know, and I was a I learned to be a great reader and my grandparents had all
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these sports magazines and so I'd just devour those. And dad had a whole lot of
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cricket books that I would just devour. It's actually how I learned English,
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mathematics, geography, you know, was those sorts of stuff cuz I really didn't
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spend a lot of time in class concentrating on them. And and so, you know, I just had this
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sport feeling infused into me from my whole childhood. And I remember one day driving along u mom was driving
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me uh to a new school on the Northshore and and I don't know why but I said to
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her I'm going to play cricket for New Zealand and she looked at me and sort of
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nodded her head and then moved on. Although our family has an amazing history >> you know my granddad captain New Zealand
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at cricket. My uncle played for New Zealand. My dad played for Oakland and my great-grandfather was one of five BS
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that purchased swamp land in Kingsland, turned it into Eden Park. So, you know, all of this has been in my background
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and so there was no surprise really that I end up right in the middle of the sport for my whole life.
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>> Yeah, I was going to I read that I was going to ask you about that later. That
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must have been is that something that was in your mind like um the the completion of the Rugby World Cup which
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you were heavily involved with and we'll get to that at Eden Park. Yeah. >> Um, all blacks beat France by one point.
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One point was it? >> Yeah. >> 87. >> Was that something that played on your
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that that came to mind that grandad? That was >> Yeah. I I was incredibly proud of of
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that. It It is why when this debate rages about Eden Park that I am 100% plus pro Eden Park. Um,
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and uh, it's just because so much of my history, my family history has been tied
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up in that ground and it of course it's created so much of the great memories of
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sport in New Zealand that I just can't get away from that. And now I'm living
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across the road down in Sandringham from it. So I can't get away from it, you
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know. But yeah, it did it and and particularly in the Rugby World Cup where >> the capacity of the ground had been
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raised to 60,000 and and you know we had 11 games there and and eight of them were sold out at 60,000 which was just
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an extraordinary >> series of of events that yeah I you know I felt really proud about.
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>> So you're from a big cricket family also a big law family as well. Um so
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>> lawyers for Africa >> it was um so it was always going to be and you in your path to go to Deneden
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and study law. >> Well I had to go to needen in the end I'll tell that story but um [laughter]
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but my grandfather was a lawyer and he started up a legal firm in Oakland and that legal firm is still going 105 years
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later. uh my grandfather, my father, my older brother Dave, me for 20 years with Dave
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and then I moved out into cricket. Dave's still going so it's still going.
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But my grandfather had two brothers who were lawyers and the other two of them went off and and
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um created law firms themselves. So three brothers had three law firms. Why? I I just never thought to ask my dad
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when he was alive how the hell that could happen. But um [laughter] and then yeah I I suppose I was going through
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school sort of concentrating mainly on rugby and cricket which weren't um curriculum uh activities at that stage
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and I had no idea what I was going to do but I had loved reading books in dad's
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library about courtroom scenes and so you know that captured my imagination and then because everyone else in the
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family was lawyers I thought oh well I'll try and be a lawyer. Well, I started off at Oakland University and I
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was a disaster and the reason I was a disaster is really rugby, cricket, drinking and I had a good great
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girlfriend and uh so there was no chance there and so after 2 years I I found I couldn't make headway but I could if I
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went down to Otago to Deneden University I could get into law school there as I couldn't up here. [gasps]
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So I made the step. I didn't know anyone down there, one mate. And um [snorts] I
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went down there and that, you know, was a a brilliant moment in our lives really
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because uh I ended up meeting my wife there. She was doing a law degree as well and we
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Yeah. Annie, we've had four kids and we've sort of strong armed each of them
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to go through Otago if they wanted any financial assistance at all. And so >> you're encouraging your kids to go to
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Deno? [laughter] because we had had such a great time that uh it was sort of like
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>> you've got to go guys. This is just you've got to >> what just like the right of passage.
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>> Yeah. Well, it is. And of course, we our best friends in our lives have all
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emerged out of that period. And so all of them have been around our kids as well and had their own kids. And so, you
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know, there was all these this myth about Deneden. [snorts] motion, a lot of it true and a lot of it myth that just
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kept being fed to our kids. So there was no choice when it came to it. You know,
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they had to go. >> What um [snorts] Yeah. What what what were you like in the 70s? What was
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Deneden like in the 70s? You you were um you were like on the towards the end of
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you would agree you were on the cusp of like um playing for the country. You kind of been much of a party boy, eh?
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>> So you No, no, you're you're missing the point here. [laughter] Um
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we were even at international level uh cricket was pretty social. [laughter] Um you
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know no one was there were no contracts. You weren't working full-time playing
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cricket. Um the the seasons were were pretty short compared to what they are now. Uh so I had I'd sort of started
00:19:04
emerging when I left school and then went down to Deneden and and uh I think it was in my my second year there. Um I
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had a good run with the cricket and in March that year they picked a New Zealand team to tour Australia but it
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wasn't leaving until October. So I had 6 months notice and um you know in the law
00:19:27
school this was quite a big thing. He's a guy playing for New Zealand even though I hadn't yet. Um so we celebrated
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that winter um the selection and [laughter] the whole winter. >> The whole winter of course and and you
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[snorts] know fitness levels weren't what they are today. So but I was young
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and and you know and uh so preparation for the tour wasn't ideal. Um, but it
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was uh a dream come true and and of course October the start of the tour coincided with exams
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and so because I'd had notice I'd gone to the lecturers and said, "Hey, I've
00:20:02
got a problem here. I'm meant to be in Australia." Well, Otago Law School was
00:20:07
pretty sporting minded and so what they did is they created separate exams for me and I sat them in the two or three
00:20:14
days. you know, I had to do five exams in about three days and then at least it meant I could bug her off to Australia
00:20:20
and not have to think about it again. Um, my wife to be was doing the same exams and I thought they would create
00:20:30
different exams for me than they might for the others. So, she got a bit of a head start with understanding what might
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be in those. >> Um, but anyway, and then I, you know, go to Australia and this is a dream come
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true, 21 years old. um playing on all these brilliant venues that I dreamed about and playing against
00:20:51
the guys that that I'd grown up inspired by uh playing with Richard Headley >> and Jeff How and a team that history
00:21:03
showed was a really good bunch of players >> and you know that was just a fantastic
00:21:10
way to start playing for New Zealand. And then of course I had to come back and go to university in the next year
00:21:16
and I was the richest student in Deneden because >> um we'd got given each get given 10,000
00:21:23
bucks no tax to um to tour which you didn't have to spend any of it cuz you got daily allowances that covered
00:21:30
everything. So I turned back up in Deneden with 10,000 bucks in the account. I'm the only p only student in
00:21:36
Deneden with any money in the bank account. And so that started off another winter of celebration of of what had
00:21:43
happened. >> Yeah. 10,000 in 1981 80. >> So So dad said to me, "Right, you got to
00:21:51
put it in in a scheme that at that stage the government, I forget the name of the
00:21:56
scheme. And I should remember this cuz it was a bloody be which was that they would guarantee you an interest rate
00:22:03
which was equivalent to the rate of inflation plus 2 or 3% and inflation was going crazy.
00:22:10
>> So I was getting about 16 17 18% per year on that 10,000. It it ultimately
00:22:16
became the deposit for my first home. [snorts] Um so [laughter] so you know having having had the joy of 3 months in
00:22:26
Australia doing what I just love um to end up with some money in the bank. I would have gone for nothing. I didn't
00:22:32
you didn't play for money. >> Um so what was um what was that like with the
00:22:39
the day you first turned up to um New Zealand camp or whatever? Are you familiar with the term imposter
00:22:45
syndrome? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it well. um >> probably too young to think about it
00:22:50
that way. You know, when you're young, you don't think you're not good enough sort of that that
00:22:56
happens when you get a bit older and that did happen to me a little bit later on when things didn't go quite so well.
00:23:02
But, um it's just that that cocky, brash youthful, >> you know, I was smart enough to keep my
00:23:07
mouth largely shut, you know, cuz most of these guys I didn't really know. I
00:23:13
hadn't I hadn't played against or with guys enough by that stage to have but
00:23:18
there was two other young guys in the team John Brace and Ian Smith. So the three of us you know who were all just
00:23:24
picked out of junior sort of development pathway type things we we became good friends. So yeah and you know you just
00:23:33
gradually worked your way into the friendships and whatnot that then lasted for a long time.
00:23:38
>> What was Hadley like? Oh well people it he's a little bit misunderstood Richard
00:23:46
um at that point in time this is 1980 the success of the New Zealand team depended entirely on Richard Hadley you
00:23:55
know yeah other guys would could chip in but if we were going to win it would be
00:24:01
because Richard made us win >> he was our Michael Jordan >> yeah that's exactly right and he felt
00:24:08
the pressure of that and though you know and there was an enormous strain on him
00:24:13
to turn up every single day, put in an enormous effort and succeed. And so he he sort of was a little bit insula
00:24:24
um in that period of time. And he also at that stage 1980 he was clearly emerging as one of the really good
00:24:31
players um of test cricket but he hadn't at that stage reached the pinnacle of what he became.
00:24:42
As the 1980s went on and he started to just knock off all these achievements gradually. He just relaxed and um and
00:24:53
you know opened up a lot more. Well, I've known Richard ever since that time
00:24:57
and I've I've worked for him. I was his boss for a while when he was at New
00:25:00
Zealand cricket. I I came to really really like him and totally trust him because he was so organized, so diligent
00:25:12
and had great integrity and so you could you could totally rely on him to do >> what he was doing. But, you know,
00:25:21
carrying that New Zealand team in the early ' 80s, that that must have been an
00:25:25
enormous strain on him. And of course, I didn't have a clue. I was just a student
00:25:29
um and playing, you know, as much for fun as as as for uh serious stuff. And so, he had to
00:25:38
carry a lot, but man, he was good. >> And you came along at the beginning of
00:25:42
the Beige Brigade. >> Yeah. >> What what year did the um the made a huge comeback with um you know, the ACC,
00:25:49
different things. So, so my first tour, this one in Aussie was that that Packer had Kerry Packer had sort of had a bit
00:25:58
of an explosion in Australia in the late '7s. So 1980, we come along, we tour
00:26:04
Australia, suddenly we're playing in these uniforms that we had had no say whatsoever in the design or color of.
00:26:12
[snorts] And so, you know, we were to start with called the chocolate soldiers and then and then the beige brigade sort
00:26:18
of emerged a little bit later. But also, we were playing under lights for the first time. We were playing with a white
00:26:24
ball with fielding restrictions. It was all new. And uh the first part of the tour we'd
00:26:32
played a test series and we'd got wiped badly. Um so that was a bit of a disaster. But as the one day series went
00:26:40
on, we started to play really well and capture the imagination of people at home because cuz cricket was starting to
00:26:48
be broadcast back and at home and the one day games would come in at a viewer friendly time cuz they're day night
00:26:54
games and so people got really interested and of course then you know it moved towards the underarm game
00:27:00
towards the end of the tour which it just took off. It exploded from there and that that explosion carried on for a
00:27:06
few years after. >> Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that. February 1, 1981. Um, a day that goes
00:27:13
down in New Zealand sporting history. Um, when you think of that day, what comes to mind?
00:27:19
>> Uh, the very first thing I think of, because I'm thinking selfishly, is that
00:27:24
I took one of the greatest catches of all time in the outfield. Um uh it it actually was a really good
00:27:32
catch. I was fielding right on right out on the boundary on the mid wicket sideways to the wicket. Gre Chapel was
00:27:40
batting. Uh Aussie had batted first and he smacked this ball out towards me and I went running in at it. Now I' I'd
00:27:48
played a lot of rugby at fullback and I was actually really good at catching the
00:27:53
ball and so I just kept going at it and ended up diving at it and catching the ball which um so if you see replays of
00:28:03
it or whatever YouTube you it actually looks really good. It was fantastic. >> I I I watched on YouTube did you um I
00:28:09
suppose the camera technology at the time you just come from the right hand side of the frame from out of nowhere.
00:28:14
>> I know they should have been following me the whole way. I don't know where
00:28:16
they were. The empire were watching you, right? >> Well, that's that was the amazing. So,
00:28:20
so I dive forward, take this catch and um uh nothing's happening. Um you know,
00:28:29
uh Mark Burgess had been feeling close to me. He jumped up and Joy jumped over the top of me, I think. Um
00:28:36
and then we sort of started to notice that nothing was happening in the middle. So wandered into the middle and
00:28:41
and I said to Greed Chapel, "I caught it." And he didn't say a thing. he just
00:28:45
sort of turned around and walked away. Now, to be fair to him, it's not the batsman's job.
00:28:51
>> Um there I mean, you could say, "All right, he should take the word of a a
00:28:56
fieldsman, but you know, it it's still not his job." But the two umpires, cuz
00:29:02
Jeff H, the captain, was going at them full full pelt at this stage. They said, "Well, we weren't watching. We were
00:29:07
watching the batsman running between the wickets." Pathetic. Anyway, so Greg was
00:29:13
given not out. He was on 58. He went on and got 90. Funny thing is when he got out I was bowling to him. Same thing
00:29:19
happened almost a replica and Bruce Edget came flying in and took a beautiful catch at mid wicket and Greg
00:29:25
walked off straight away. Didn't didn't hang around. But then the game of course
00:29:29
then went later on and and I should say this is at the MCG which is the the huge
00:29:36
bowl of a sports ground and it had a world record crowd for one day internationals there that day. I think
00:29:41
it was 70 something thousand and it was hot as hell and and um sort of it came down to the last over
00:29:50
and and uh it was really close and then you know the Aussie umpires pulled a couple of
00:29:57
LBWs out of the out of their bag just to keep it even and then um [snorts] uh you know the last ball Brian McKnney
00:30:06
went into face and and there was this commotion happening in the middle and we were sort of looking from the sideways
00:30:10
thinking what are they talking about and then the penny dropped that Greg had told his brother Trevor to bowl
00:30:15
underarm. >> Yes. So Brian um who by the way double all black so played cricket for New
00:30:20
Zealand with you played for the All Blacks as well. >> He was um facing the last ball of the
00:30:24
match and New Zealand needed six to draw. >> To draw not to win to draw or tie
00:30:30
>> and this is the largest playing arena in the world of cricket. And I'm when I say
00:30:35
playing arena I mean the grass the boundaries are bigger than anywhere else. Brian is coming in to face his
00:30:41
first. Well, Brian was a good guy, but there was no chance in Hill that he was going to hit a six. Um, [snorts]
00:30:47
and uh, and so he comes in and then it becomes obvious that that Greg has told Trevor to bowl underarm. And Trevor's
00:30:58
looking at his brother saying, "I don't want to do this." And Greg is [snorts]
00:31:02
saying, "I'm sorry, you have to do it." And Rod Marsh is wicked keeper sort of
00:31:06
waggling his head saying, "No, no, don't do it. >> [snorts] >> And anyway, it happened and um and you
00:31:15
[snorts] know the the of course there was just everyone was stunned. It was in the rules that you could do
00:31:23
this but no one ever it's one of those rules you never you never know about.
00:31:27
you never would would think of doing it and then it happened. And you know I I often refer to it as the greatest day in
00:31:37
New Zealand cricket because it is the day that New Zealanders in huge numbers stood up and started
00:31:46
taking real notice of cricket. And from that moment on, you know, the popularity
00:31:52
of cricket, it it actually, this is February 1981, and remember the spring box tour, that acrimonious tour a bit
00:31:59
later in the year. Cricket surpassed rugby that year in terms of popularity and also reputation. Um,
00:32:07
and so it it sort of we were looking at each other, what the hell happened? And um, anyway, it I I think to be honest,
00:32:20
we we realized we're on to a winner pretty early, that this gave us the moral high ground that 44 years later
00:32:30
we've still got with Australia. And um and you know I still have Australian mates who who refer to it or
00:32:39
you know if we're just getting to know each other I just slip in. Oh I played
00:32:42
in the underarm game and suddenly they're really embarrassed and apologizing and [laughter]
00:32:48
I give speeches about it you know about this. Um so so it was a actually a great
00:32:54
thing. The O poor old Aussie team um they they didn't know what hit them. You
00:32:58
know, we went in normally what happens is after a game in those days anyway, the side that's batting second will go
00:33:04
in the dressing room of the side that that has been fielding and you have a few beers. Well, we decided some reason
00:33:10
we would go in there, which is pretty pretty courageous of us, but we went in there and it was a morg and they were
00:33:16
just they just didn't know what had hit them. >> So, we pretty quickly backed out of
00:33:21
that. Um, [snorts] but we got on really well with those guys. Greg Greg I've
00:33:26
always find uh even when I run into him now he's he's actually a really good guy
00:33:31
and um and so you know it wasn't one of those things that called caused any acrimony between the team but man did we
00:33:40
play it up when we got the chance and every chance we could. >> But were you we is part of you still a
00:33:46
bit um bitter with Greg because you caught him out and uh you could have won um a Toyota for catch of the match.
00:33:52
>> Oh that's right. I forgot about that. You're right. >> He cost you he cost you a bloody car.
00:33:56
>> A brand new Toyota was was on offer for the best catch of the summer. >> I mean the the commentary at the time
00:34:03
Richie Beno says, "What a catch. That's one of the best catches I've ever seen
00:34:06
in my life." [gasps] >> Well, you got to respect Richie. >> Um yeah, [laughter] you know, but of
00:34:12
course I would have only got a hub hub cap or something like that once we' shared it around the team. Um
00:34:17
>> Oh, is that what happened? Oh, so okay. So you won it as an individual, then it
00:34:20
went into like a team. That sort of was the done deal. And of course, usually Richard was winning the cars time after
00:34:26
time, and so he was he was having to shove them all, which he got a bit sick of at times. Um, but
00:34:34
listen, it didn't for a second cause any acrimony. It, as I say, it just gave us
00:34:39
the moral high ground forever >> with Australia. And isn't it funny that
00:34:44
the guy that faced it, Brian McKitney, only a few months beforehand had been playing for the All Blacks at Carter
00:34:50
Farms Park and Andy Hayden had dived out of the line out in a predetermined ploy
00:34:57
and we'd got a penalty and and Brian had kicked the winning goal. So to be involved in two of the most
00:35:03
controversial episodes in New Zealand sport history, >> like the Forest Gump of New Zealand
00:35:07
sport, just involved in all these pivotal moments, it's great. Were were you were you guys sort of aware? So you
00:35:13
go back into the change room after the game. Are you like are you sort of bewildered or are you laughing about it?
00:35:18
Do you you realize it is at the time? >> We're not laughing that quickly. We
00:35:21
we're we're a bit bewildered. Um but remembering it, you know, huge ground and the chances of Brian hitting
00:35:30
a six would were non-existent and even if he had of it would have been a draw or tie.
00:35:35
So, you know, it wasn't it just we were just flumxed by why they would do it.
00:35:41
Greg had had a really difficult summer. You know, he'd been struggling to score
00:35:45
runs. The the demands on him as captain Australia were ridiculous. The Australian cricket board had ass flying
00:35:53
all over Australia. No cohesion in the in the way the the calendar of games was worked out. So, he was utterly and
00:36:01
completely burnt out by the time. and that affected his his decision-m on the day. [snorts]
00:36:06
>> The following year they toured New Zealand. We had this brilliant occasion
00:36:10
at Eden Park which was the biggest crowd in cricket history and Greg came out to
00:36:14
bat and the crowd booed him out into the middle. Um a a a wag jumped off the terraces cuz there's no security as to
00:36:24
what you bought in the games in those days. And he had a bowling ball and he got out and he bowled the ball along the
00:36:28
ground. It was brilliant. And Jeremy Con picked it. Jeremy was a laugh. Anyway, [snorts] um Greg went on and scored 100
00:36:35
and he got a standing ovation coming off the field. He had just published a book
00:36:41
uh about the previous summer and there was a chapter on my catch and there was a chapter on on uh the underarm. I'd
00:36:47
bought the book and I took it into the Aussie director room afterwards and I got him to sign it for [laughter]
00:36:54
so um good memories. >> Jeez, you mentioned Eden Park again. Yeah, there's this amazing given the
00:37:00
backstory with your great granddad. It's been like this amazing backdrop to your
00:37:04
life. >> Oh, totally. You know, it it so my granddad and then my uncle Colum, he had
00:37:09
this amazing thing where he was a rugby and cricket commentator and in those days they used to play, you know, club
00:37:16
rugby every Saturday at Eden Park, then represented rugby, then the All Blacks and um and in cricket, you know, when
00:37:24
Oakland was playing there. Well, Colin was the commentator for both sports every Saturday for 40 years.
00:37:31
>> He only gave up in the end because he felt uncomfortable that I was out there
00:37:35
playing for New Zealand. So, he he retired. Um, so that that connection with the ground is just enormous.
00:37:42
>> Um, yeah. >> What's your proudest moment as a New Zealand cricketer?
00:37:48
>> Oh, [gasps] two really. one was I' I'd had, you know, despite the fact I'd had a good
00:37:54
first tour, I struggled a wee bit on and off um with my career and then and I was
00:38:00
out of the team a bit and then I got brought back in when we were playing the West Indies and the West Indies, you
00:38:06
know, were at their height of their fame >> and we're playing a test in Christ
00:38:11
Church and I was a bit worried because I was on a comeback and, you know, playing
00:38:15
against the best one of the best teams in history and um I started did okay and so I felt
00:38:22
I relaxed a bit more into it but then on the last day we had to bowl the West Indies out to have a chance of winning
00:38:28
and um Hadley had started bowling at the start of the day and Viv Richards was batting and he just smashed him
00:38:35
everywhere and then Con who was captain said to me what your turn thought anyway
00:38:42
um I started all right and um I had him in a little bit of difficulty and then uh I bowled the ball and he slashed it
00:38:50
and he nicked it 3D and Smith at wick keeper and you know it was one of the the turning points of my life was to
00:38:57
actually cuz I'd been up against it I'd been struggling to get him out at a time that mattered
00:39:04
and then I went on I got five wickets that day and we won the test match and wow
00:39:08
>> uh but then probably two years later uh a test match in Perth which is is
00:39:14
remembered as the Mark Greatbatch test uh because he he basically against Australia. He saved the match for New
00:39:22
Zealand by just batting and batting and batting for almost two days. And it was quite a young team because there
00:39:32
were a few injuries and so I had to lead the bowling attack. And Aussie got 500,
00:39:36
but I actually bowled quite well. And then um in the second innings I came out to bat with Mark just straight after
00:39:43
lunch. So we were about seven down I think. So the game was going to be over in half an hour or an hour. Well, I
00:39:51
managed to bat the rest of the day with him and we saved the test match. And you
00:39:56
know, it was just one of those things where I thought, "Wow, that's that's just a memory of
00:40:05
that just won't ever go away. just the satisfaction of working with them to to stop them in
00:40:13
their tracks and enable us to hold on and draw the game was just you know it wasn't even a win it was a draw but it
00:40:21
felt like a win at the end of it um because [snorts] we'd pulled a draw out of the hat really and so you know those
00:40:27
sort of things um you know in my mind >> that's so cool yeah do you ever catch up
00:40:33
with Mark Greatbatch and >> yeah yeah um you know He he [snorts] uh yeah we sort of because I've been
00:40:40
involved in cricket administration I do run into guys um uh not all the time but but every so
00:40:48
often you know so >> is that something you bring up or is it just unspoken like this unspoken
00:40:52
>> it's sort of unspoken you know I think it created a bond between us because we
00:40:57
were completely different types of individuals and at times had rubbed up against each other a little bit the
00:41:02
wrong way. Um, but you know when you've done something like that with someone
00:41:07
that you sort of do have that bond that you don't need to talk about it. You
00:41:11
just know that was that was a good thing to do together. >> I can't imagine you rubbing anyone up
00:41:16
the wrong way. >> Uh, listen, I I did have a bit of a mouth on me at times when um, uh, in the
00:41:24
second half of my career. You know, I sometimes get surprised when I run into some younger guys who I played with who
00:41:29
who say to me, "Well, you're a bit of a handful there." [laughter] um towards
00:41:32
the end um you know tired and old and grumpy but um I don't believe them but
00:41:38
there's enough in it [laughter] saying it that it must be true >> evidence
00:41:42
>> so uh so yeah every so often >> any any um memorabilia what have you got
00:41:47
at home you going balls or wickets >> I did have but then what happens is you
00:41:52
start giving it away you know people say oh we got auction here yeah >> and you know it's like with like the
00:41:57
duko stuff but most of it had gone by then you did and the the beige brigade uniform sort of I'd given it all away
00:42:05
before it actually, you know, the the guys made it Yeah. into >> what it is now. Um, so I don't care. You
00:42:13
know, I've got the memories. That's all that matters. I listen when co happened,
00:42:19
uh, they had no sport content because there was no live sport around TV. So, Sport Sky Sky Sport purchased from
00:42:27
Channel 9 in Australia the highlights of the old games. Well, it's the first time
00:42:33
I'd seen most of these because when we were playing, we were playing and so you
00:42:37
weren't, you know, on a couch watching TV and then each night after a game, they'd half an hour highlights, usually
00:42:44
at about 11 p.m. Well, by 11:00 p.m. you'd had a skin full. You weren't really, and all you're watching anyway
00:42:49
is either been hit for four or six or get the odd wicket. Um, so it was actually quite nice in co to to um to
00:42:58
actually have a chance to look at a whole lot of games. You know, I'd fast forward to try and remember, did I bowl
00:43:03
right that day or not? And if I didn't, I wouldn't watch it. I still can't, but
00:43:07
if I did, I'd hang in there. Then I'd say to Annie or the kids, "Come and
00:43:10
watch. Come and watch. You know, this is your chance." Well, they weren't in the
00:43:13
slightest bit interested, [laughter] >> but it was quite nice seeing it. >> And how did retirement look? Did you Did
00:43:20
you end on your own terms? >> Yeah, I did. And that that was a good thing to do. Um because one of the real
00:43:29
issues and it still exists today, maybe even more because of the professional game, is that if a player
00:43:38
effectively disappears out of it cuz they're dropped, then somehow they carry that and
00:43:45
sometimes they carry it for their lives. And it I've seen it cause lots of damage
00:43:50
to people where the very team or the organization they were working with um who had given them these opportunities
00:43:58
throughout their career, they'd end up hating >> and it's awful to watch. Well, we'd sort
00:44:05
of got to 1990, so I'd had, you know, 10 years on and off of playing. And I was
00:44:10
lucky because in those days you weren't full-time professionals. So, I'd got a
00:44:13
law degree and I was working with my brother and so I knew what my next step in life was going to be. And then Annie
00:44:20
and I started having kids and uh by the time we had a second kid um it had become pretty obvious to me that it
00:44:29
wasn't on for me to disappear on two month or 3 month tours and leave it to her to look after these things. So, in
00:44:36
1990 I just sort of decided right that's enough. Got to stop. So, I made the
00:44:41
decision. I don't think I even talked it over with her. I just sort of said,
00:44:44
"Nah, that's it. I've done it. I've enjoyed it. Time to move on with life."
00:44:49
And that was really good because it actually meant that I went into what was after that with a pretty excited,
00:44:56
positive frame of mind instead of it being I'm only doing this cuz I've been
00:45:00
kicked out sort of thing. >> You always had something to something to do. It's not like you finished and it's
00:45:05
like what am I going to do now? You know, I might have to train to do real estate or
00:45:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a real problem for professional sport. Yeah.
00:45:11
>> Is that uh you know athletes give so much and they're required to give so
00:45:16
much to it now that they don't think about >> the future and I don't blame them
00:45:23
>> and then the future becomes the now and then a lot of them just aren't ready.
00:45:28
>> Now rugby and cricket >> with the growth of player associations have actually developed really good uh
00:45:35
player development whole of person development programs for players. So there is much more attention paid
00:45:43
uh to what happens next and players are getting help. But of course it it's for
00:45:48
most players they're not going to concentrate on that until it's obvious
00:45:51
they're going to finish. >> And so you know it takes a while for them to tune into that. But it does help
00:45:56
a hell of a lot. But other sports like I'm in cycling now >> and I already see it. You know they go
00:46:02
out of it and that's it. Um and they don't know you know they're looking
00:46:06
around thinking what do I do now? And people's memories are short. You know,
00:46:10
you might be a hero while you're on the track or on the on the field, but once
00:46:15
you're finished, you're finished >> and people move on. And it's quite a
00:46:20
it's quite a reality. You you will have struck this your yourself in your career
00:46:25
a few times where, you know, you come to the end of something and you realize that people just move on
00:46:33
>> and they don't think about you. It's not a nasty thing or anything like that.
00:46:36
It's just that's the way it is. And you sometimes, and this is a a real risk in sport, is that a player's
00:46:44
selfidentity is wrapped up in what they are on the field. And and in cricket now, we spend a lot of time trying to
00:46:51
get players to understand they are people. That's their identity, their people identity. [snorts] And they
00:46:58
happen to play cricket, which is important, but it's not everything. But of course, you know, it's hard for for
00:47:05
people that are in the middle of it the whole time to accept. But it is true. If
00:47:09
you can't see your value as a person as opposed to what the public sees, then
00:47:16
you've got a problem you've got to sort out. [sighs] >> Yeah. I I mean it's a far smaller scale
00:47:21
than being like um representing your country in sport or winning a gold medal but um I did a breakfast radio show on
00:47:26
one radio station called the edge for 20 years and you sort of you do become sort
00:47:30
of defined by by this public role >> and and you you you know you might try
00:47:35
and play it down but you're actually were far more in the public eye consistently
00:47:39
>> than I would have been. Um, and every morning you, you know, alarm goes off
00:47:44
and you have to gear yourself up to perform and so you you you go at it. Um, and then it's really hard when you don't
00:47:53
have the opportunity to perform >> cuz someone else stops it. >> Um, or you've you've had enough. You
00:47:59
you're burned out. Burnout's a a very real thing that people should take a lot
00:48:04
more notice of. >> Um, what did you what did you miss the most and the least when you finished up
00:48:09
with cricket? Uh, I loved I loved playing on the big grounds around the world. You know, I
00:48:19
almost I think deliberately thought, right, a tour to England's going to be my last tour and then to play a test at
00:48:25
Lords. Um, you know, the previous tour I'd been on, I was 12th man, so I didn't
00:48:29
get to play in the test there. So to play the test at Lords and and play on the other great grounds over there, um,
00:48:38
that was a good thing. Um I loved the rhythm of touring in the old days. These days where you play only international
00:48:45
matches and it's really you know pressure cooker the whole way. Whereas a tour to England in 1990 is that we would
00:48:53
play three test matches but we would have a lot of time just touring around England playing against county teams. So
00:49:00
it was pretty low pressure environment and just you know having fun doing that and having a beer each night with people
00:49:05
and and stuff was all good fun. So I I sort of missed that. But I I the imposition on your family life,
00:49:19
>> the end of you know the >> sacrifice. >> Yeah. Well, I didn't really see it as a
00:49:23
sacrifice for myself, but I started to see towards the end the sacrifice that Annie was making letting me go on these
00:49:30
tours. I mean, she'd come over for bits and pieces of some of them and have a
00:49:34
good time, but but that, you know, when the kids were there, that that just was really difficult. So, uh, I actually
00:49:43
loved sort of being in one place for a decent length of time, which I hadn't
00:49:48
been for 10 years. >> So, that was good. Um, >> did you [snorts] become a smoker at all?
00:49:54
Heavy cigarette sponsorship at the time. Rothman's B&H. [laughter] >> So, Rothman's B&H. Yeah. I remember
00:49:59
seeing a game um at the Ferturban Oval in Palmer North. Um Ian Botham was playing. There was some exhibition match
00:50:05
against Central Districts I think. Um and as soon as he got out he was in his caravan just
00:50:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, he he smoked a lot of things. Um [laughter] I think I did my serious smoking at
00:50:16
about 11. Um but I [snorts] never I never smoked. Yeah. >> You know, I just it never interested me.
00:50:22
But of course, when you were sponsored by those guys, they would give you cartons and cartons of cigarettes. So
00:50:27
the guys in the team that did smoke, and there were quite a few, would line up and say, "Hey, just give me your cart."
00:50:32
[laughter] >> That's amazing. It seems crazy now, doesn't it? >> And that's um You're right. And the
00:50:40
alcohol thing was also, you know, like we went to the pub every single night that we're on tour. That's another
00:50:48
reason I like touring. And the bowlers had something in common. So the bowlers would stick together. It's a bit like
00:50:56
you go to a party and the males are on one side and the females are on the other side. Well, it was the same on
00:51:01
cricket tours. The bowlers would stay together and the batsmen if they turned up were over there and and the bowlers
00:51:06
had a real because we were the blue collar hardworking lot. the batsmen were just flashy white collar um show ponies
00:51:14
and um and so there was a hell of a social time and I I tell my son who's playing cricket for Wellington I said
00:51:21
you know we would have a team meeting the night before a test match or a one-day international
00:51:27
and in those days you had bugger support staff with you on tour and so the players would have
00:51:34
uh jobs they had to do and and you know someone would be in charge of of the alcohol for the team thing. So, their
00:51:41
job was to get the concurge to um bring up enough ice to fill the bath in the room that you were having the team
00:51:49
meeting in. And then all the cans of beer would have to be in there 2 or 3 hours beforehand. So, they're ice cold
00:51:55
when you were sitting down having a serious meeting about how you were going to attack the opposition the next day.
00:52:00
And you know when you compare that and that happened my whole 10 10 years to nowadays where my son who who plays
00:52:07
domestic cricket for Wellington almost doesn't have a single drink of alcohol
00:52:12
between October and and April. It's just night and day. I'd rather have my time.
00:52:20
>> It was a glorious time to be representing your country, wasn't it? And um were there transferable skills
00:52:26
that you got from playing professional sport that you carried on to the board? >> Totally. Totally. And that was that was
00:52:31
the thing that really not not I I'll more to being a lawyer, an effective lawyer. So, you know, I'd been tinkering
00:52:39
around being a lawyer for the 1980s and then once I retired, I was into it big time with my brother and became a
00:52:46
partner with him. And do you know what it was? It was I think I learned a whole lot when I was playing
00:52:54
cricket about handling pressure and the importance of preparation. But but what I realized is I'd never
00:53:02
done that properly when I was playing. But I'd seen Richard Hadley do it. I'd
00:53:07
seen Martin Crow do it. I'd seen John Wright do it. And so I knew right from the start of my
00:53:15
post cricket career that's what I had to do to succeed in the law. And that's so
00:53:19
that's what I did. And it it was incredible. And and so the you know, you channeled pressure in the right way from
00:53:26
there. And then, you know, that did carry into the sports administration stuff after that as well.
00:53:31
>> Yeah. You mentioned Martin Crow. What what made him so good? Did Did you play
00:53:35
with him at the peak of his career or did he sort of peak after you? >> Oh, I think probably at the peak.
00:53:40
>> Yeah. >> Um, he was a bit complex, Marty. Um, you know, had a lot of pressure coming on
00:53:45
him. A bit like Richard, >> like tortured geniuses. >> Yeah. There was a book called that
00:53:50
Joseph Romanus wrote was called Tortured Genius. And he was he he he struggled to
00:53:56
just relax and enjoy life enough. Um he struggled to enjoy what he was achieving
00:54:03
enough I think. And so I saw him play unbelievable cricket against you know I talked about the West Indies before you
00:54:12
know one of the best teams with with the most fearsome bowling attack and then switched to playing against Pakistan
00:54:18
with Wazi Marramakar Ununas and some really good spinners and he was just he had prepared so well he'd got himself
00:54:25
mentally right and he would be unbelievably outstanding against them. So I I saw him at his peak. Um
00:54:35
but you know it it didn't go smoothly for him. I think what happened is during
00:54:38
the 80s he had a whole lot of experienced guys around him and then we all sort of
00:54:44
a lot of us retired in 1990 and and he was left a little bit without that protection you
00:54:51
know and it sort of got to him a little bit and and things didn't work out quite
00:54:54
as well during the 1990s for him apart from the 92 World Cup in New Zealand where he was just sublime
00:55:03
um fantastic you had a front row seat with these guys, Hadley Crow. >> It was incredible time to be part of the
00:55:11
New Zealand cricket scene. >> And and Lance Ken, you mentioned before, you know.
00:55:16
>> I loved Lance >> and me too cuz what he did even though, you know, I got on the team and I'm a
00:55:23
bowler and and I'm a competitor if you like for a place in the test team with
00:55:28
with him. And yet he took me under my w under his wing right from the start and looked after me
00:55:37
um uh for those first few years, you know, and was was a really good um yeah really
00:55:45
good person to anchor me uh with things. He understood how hard it was at that level. You know, there were a lot of us
00:55:52
who didn't have necessarily the talent to be stars at international cricket. So
00:55:59
we were spending a lot of time trying to hang on in there and do okay. And there
00:56:04
was an art to that and New Zealand was really good at it is that we had a whole lot of guys who could do okay. Um
00:56:14
and and you know and Lance was was one of them. And then of course he had a couple of years where he he just had the
00:56:20
fun of smashing all those sixes. And >> he was such a great character. Why did the um the shoulderless bat not
00:56:27
catch on? [laughter] >> Oh, I I did for a while. Yeah, I did for a while. Um Excalibur.
00:56:34
>> Yeah, Excalibur. I had one. Yeah, I don't remember scoring one boundary with
00:56:38
it myself, but >> but in those days too, don't you forget now where the the live broadcast
00:56:44
photography means you get right in >> at anything you want to. It's amazing.
00:56:49
in those days. Yeah. You see it, but from the distance, so it wasn't quite as
00:56:52
prominent as as it would be now. >> Yeah. Hey, I've got some um silly quickfire team questions here and then
00:56:58
we can move on to the uh the the the business side of your career, which has been longer than the cricket.
00:57:03
>> It is. >> Um who was the funniest guy in the dressing room? >> Oh, Con brilliant sense of humor. Uh
00:57:10
such a clever person with words. His training had been drama and you know, so he brought all these dramatic skills to
00:57:17
everything. Plus he played the he he and Wrighty played the guitar. So we you know we would on this first tour this is
00:57:23
how different it is now. We would go to all these country towns that Australian cricket had sent us to and in in a
00:57:29
function we'd get up on stage and sing poceric Ariana or you know it was sort
00:57:35
of but you know he had Jerry unbelievably funny. >> Yeah. Who was the most serious on the
00:57:40
team? Uh Hedley and Chatfield both >> uh were pretty pokerface serious a lot
00:57:50
of the time and you know they had they enjoyed themselves but >> yeah they kept it pretty pretty serious.
00:57:56
>> But you you were one of them right? Like you were Yeah. The three bowlers.
00:58:00
>> Yeah. Well, Headley and >> Well, Kens and me and Troop and >> and [snorts] of course Brace will bo
00:58:06
um who would you never want to sit next to on a long haul flight? Oh. uh probably younger. You know what what
00:58:14
you realized when you got older how far out of touch you were with the younger guys in the team. So So someone like an
00:58:21
Adam Peruri my last tour he was 19 I was 31. We just we weren't quite going to be
00:58:27
>> besties >> besties. [laughter] He's a good I've had him on the podcast.
00:58:32
He's a good dude now. >> Oh he's he has done some remarkable stuff. Um, but he was a different
00:58:37
generation, you know, different mentality than me. So, you know. >> Yeah. I can't imagine what like a
00:58:44
19-year-old Peruru was like. Just >> the arrogance, the ego. >> Yeah, we're all a bit like that if
00:58:49
we're, you know, >> um, who had the weirdest pre-match ritual? >> Jeff House. Uh, before he went into bat
00:58:59
in internationals, he would throw up, vomit every time. um he just the pressure of it and then you
00:59:10
know carry on but that happened all the time with him. He felt I love Jeff and he was a great captain but he felt the
00:59:17
pressure internally you know and so he he it was tough um and so he you know before he batted he'd he'd throw up.
00:59:28
>> Best and worst dressed off the field. >> Martin Crow would have been a snazzy
00:59:34
dress. Oh yeah. Know who he thought he was. Um [laughter] no, he would have been um
00:59:40
you know [snorts] that uh God. Yeah, probably Marty, I guess. Um the worst dressed.
00:59:48
>> Uh Richard had some awful taste in fashion. [laughter] Um [snorts] >> what does that mean?
01:00:02
>> Can you [laughter] elaborate? Well, you know, I don't you see old films, you
01:00:05
know, and you watch you look at some of the stuff guys are wearing and think, man, did they really wear that?
01:00:11
[laughter] >> Um, who who talked the most rubbish during a game? Were you a were you a
01:00:15
were you a sledger? >> Uh, not not no braces by far was the biggest sledger. John Bracewell,
01:00:23
>> like he would be in at people big time. Um our some of our batsmen would cap cap
01:00:33
cop it from the Aussies but not you know for all their reputation was just went over your head or you
01:00:42
didn't give a stuff about it. Um so >> and who was grumpiest after a loss?
01:00:50
uh depending on how we'd lost, >> you know, um Richard Jeff would hate it
01:00:59
if we lost because we'd played badly, if we'd let ourselves down. Wasn't wasn't
01:01:04
too worried if if you know, we'd actually played pretty well and lost. >> But if we'd if we'd let ourselves down,
01:01:12
then then the leaders got pretty grumpy. M >> so after Chris after um cricket it was
01:01:19
law for a bit and then you ended up back at NZ cricket as the >> Yeah. So well actually it both happened
01:01:24
in the 1990s. So I retired in July 90 1990. Um went straight into my law firm full-time.
01:01:35
Uh but at the same time exactly the same time I went on to the border New Zealand
01:01:39
cricket. So by September 1990 I was on the border New Zealand cricket. >> Wow. they had been after someone who was
01:01:46
uh knew a bit more about what it was like at the front line for players and I just happened to be at the right place,
01:01:51
right time. So, so through the 90 I worked with my brother for 10 years, 1990 to 2000
01:02:00
and I was on the New Zealand cricket board for quite a bit of time during that time
01:02:06
and then um Chris Doy had been CEO and Chris amazing figure um had decided he'd
01:02:14
had enough and so he said to me why don't why don't you think about becoming
01:02:18
CEO of New Zealand cricket which was based in Christ Church and I B no I can't do that. And he said he said you
01:02:26
only have to work 4 days a week and you can play golf on the fifth. So naively I
01:02:31
believed him. And anyway Annie was Annie was happy enough. We had four kids at that stage. And she said yeah you know
01:02:37
let's have a change in life and shift the whole family down to Christ Church.
01:02:41
And away we went. So you know it sort of it just sort of happened really mainly because of Chris. Um and I suddenly
01:02:49
found myself as CEO of New Zealand cricket straight out of a law degree. Never having worked in a sort of a
01:02:57
organization. Never had you know to look after people or whatever. And so it was
01:03:02
a bit different. But um you know the first few weeks I was there uh we had the New Zealand team in Pakistan and a
01:03:09
bomb went off outside their hotel and I soon learned the realities of life there
01:03:15
and um you know terrorism became quite a big thing for the whole time that I was
01:03:19
CEO. Um it was just at that time it was it was a big part of the world cricket world particularly in Asia.
01:03:28
So um you know I just sort of learned on the job. I had good people around me to
01:03:32
teach me a bit. And uh it was a volatile time because it was also when the players just started up with the players
01:03:39
association and in the first 6 months of what was a negotiation between me and Heath Mills [snorts] uh for the first
01:03:47
ever player contract system was a bit was a bit uh volatile to the point where uh uh about a month before the start of
01:03:56
the cricket season every player in New Zealand went on strike. Um, so it was a very public event. It kept radio sport
01:04:03
going every day. [laughter] Um, uh, >> yeah. How, how is that for you? So,
01:04:08
you're an ex player, a very experienced ex- player, so you've got sort of, I
01:04:12
suppose, an empathy or understanding of the players. Um, but then you're on this
01:04:16
other camp. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was a bit confusing time. >> It was confronting. And
01:04:22
I think it was for the players, the current then current players as well because, you know, I had been a player.
01:04:28
Um but you know I I guess by that stage 10 years after I'd retired they just
01:04:33
regarded me as an old fart part of the past and um it it got incredibly acrimonious.
01:04:42
Um and even when we solved it I solved it with a sledgehammer. Not not through gifted negotiation with Heath but a
01:04:52
sledgehammer. And so I forced an end result onto the players that of course they hated. Um
01:05:00
but then I did a really smart thing um which was that I went back to Heath and said
01:05:08
we can't that's not the way I see it. I actually agree with what you were trying
01:05:12
to do. >> Um just a couple of aspects of what you wanted how much money you wanted were
01:05:18
just too much for the circumstances. But I really value and Heath and I became having been not known each other
01:05:25
and been in the public domain pitted against each other in a big way. We have had become and and still are really good
01:05:34
friends. Um over that you know how many years since then 24 years and and the players association has been one of the
01:05:43
great success stories of cricket in New Zealand. >> Yeah. Um, so you know those sort of
01:05:48
things they happen and you're sort of for a moment in time you're fighting as
01:05:54
hard as you can with something but as time goes past you you know life moves on >> and uh you must have learned learned so
01:06:03
much about yourself. I suppose this is like sharpening the axe for the 2011 World Cup but
01:06:07
>> you yeah what did you learn about the importance about being respected rather
01:06:11
than necessarily being liked? >> Yeah. Well, that's absolutely true is
01:06:14
that you know you had to >> cuz cuz seriously the players hated me at that stage and I don't blame them. I
01:06:23
was the opposition in their minds. >> Um they didn't actually understand that
01:06:28
I actually agreed with them having a really good system and it's just they wanted too much money
01:06:35
that we couldn't afford. >> That was the only real impediment. Um but yeah, you know, enormous pressure,
01:06:44
but probably Dom, the pressure of having your players in Pakistan and a bomb's gone off outside
01:06:51
of their hotel, it's blown out the windows of the team bus. Fortunately, they weren't sitting on it. Um knowing
01:06:57
that you had players lives in your hands, uh that was that was even harder to deal
01:07:05
with. That's that's reality. and um and trying to find a way to help the
01:07:13
players recover from that. And then, you know, a couple of years later, we're in
01:07:18
South Africa for the Cricket World Cup and the International Cricket Council want us to play Kenya and Nairobi and
01:07:24
that was an absolute nogo area for Westerners at the time. And >> and I sat down with the players and I
01:07:32
said, I I just can't let you go there. Um, and then I did the same with the international cricket. People didn't
01:07:40
give us stuff. They thought we were just being objectionable. And I said, "No, no, our our players
01:07:46
have been through this, the reality of it. This is not theory. This is this is stuff that we know." And I said, "I'm
01:07:53
not putting them there." And and the players themselves, you know, this is 2
01:07:56
years after all the the the contract issues. They were trusting me by then. And I said to them, I'm not going to ask
01:08:04
you to make a decision. I'm going to make this decision, but I do want to know what you think. And you know what?
01:08:09
Half of them wanted to go and half didn't. Um, and so I defaulted a World Cup match, you
01:08:18
know, and it cost us a place in the semi-finals doing that, but the players and the player association supported it
01:08:25
full-time. M >> and then you know these people that had been criticizing me in world cricket
01:08:32
about a year year and a half later um terrorists attacked their umpires and match referees in Pakistan shot at a bus
01:08:42
that they were in and someone was wounded and and um you know someone was killed
01:08:49
and they you know cricket never went back to Pakistan for 20 years after and I'm thinking yeah well if you'd actually
01:08:55
listen to me. You might have found that that you wouldn't have had that problem
01:08:58
then, [snorts] but you you know, you were too ready to put money >> ahead of um ahead of welfare of players.
01:09:06
So, you know, you you do learn a hell of a lot and I'd been through the mill. Um
01:09:13
and I hadn't I hadn't solved everything spectacularly well, but I'd done okay.
01:09:18
And New Zealand cricket was doing okay. It was Steven Fleming's team and and he
01:09:24
he was a superb captain and the players did pretty well. And so I think when they came to look for someone to run the
01:09:32
Rugby World Cup, they they looked at that and thought they need someone who is visible to New Zealanders who New
01:09:39
Zealanders sort of can connect with for this. And so, you know, they came to me and said, "Would you consider it?" And I
01:09:46
said, "No, no, I'm too wrapped up in the Black Caps. want them to help them win
01:09:50
the cricket world cup in 2007. So it went dead. But then they had trouble finding who they wanted and they
01:09:57
came back a little bit later and by that stage I thought oh I asked them whether
01:10:01
I could combine the two jobs for a while which they agreed so I got the black caps through to the um 2007 World Cup.
01:10:09
They didn't win it. >> Um but I was able to then to transition out of it pretty nicely.
01:10:16
>> Yeah. Hey, you just mentioned Steven Fleming before. Um, how's the air con?
01:10:20
Is No, it's >> Is the temperature good? >> No, it's fine. >> Yeah, I think it's a Toshiba as well.
01:10:24
>> I can't take my jersey off cuz I have an iron machine. [laughter] >> So, um, yes. So, when do you start with
01:10:29
the the 2011 World Cup stuff? Is that 2007? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So they, you know, the what they'd
01:10:35
learned from the mistakes of Australia running the Rugby World Cup in 2003 was that if New Zealand rugby itself was to
01:10:44
run the event that it would take over their whole organization. So they and the government agreed, let's set up a
01:10:50
separate entity, we'll each own 50% of it and that will be a new organization
01:10:55
set up solely to run the event. And so that's the way it went. And then of course they're starting from a zero
01:11:02
employee base. So they start looking for you know a chief executive and a couple
01:11:07
of senior managers and it started from there. So we I started I got appointed at the end of 2006
01:11:14
did did that role which was pretty gentle at that stage and the New Zealand cricket CEO role through to the end of
01:11:23
the cricket world cup in May 2007 and then shifted across and and began. So it was just over four years of preparation
01:11:31
for that event. >> Yeah. I got a quote from you. Outside of raising a family, the Rugby World Cup
01:11:35
goes down as the number one event in my life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it and it is I was so
01:11:41
uh inspired by by what happened and proud of being part of a team that could galvanize New
01:11:51
Zealand, not just rugby people, >> but New Zealanders to get in behind it and really um really support it in the
01:12:01
right way. And and when I say that, I mean this. One of our biggest risks of the event was that the All Blacks at
01:12:08
that stage had not won the Rugby World Cup for since 1987 and people were getting pretty grumpy as
01:12:15
we went through, you know, World Cups subsequently and you talked to Lori Mains a short while ago.
01:12:20
>> Um I had John Hart on as well the impact it had on his 99. >> So the rugby community was pretty bloody
01:12:28
pissed with this that they hadn't won. But of course, we were hosting the world
01:12:33
and we didn't want this to be all about the All Blacks finally winning. We wanted it to be a celebration of New
01:12:39
Zealand hosting the world. And that's a completely different mentality. And it
01:12:44
was one of the reasons I think the government supported the setting up of a separate organization and didn't
01:12:49
necessarily find look for leaders that came out of rugby to run it. So um so you know that the way in which we
01:13:01
laid a platform to get people connected into it and then let them loose to do the great stuff they could do. So we ran
01:13:11
the event I think from memory was 48 games of rugby. So okay there was a there was a formula that we were bound
01:13:19
into to run 48 games of rugby. 20 teams, 48 games. But there was this whole opportunity of
01:13:26
a nation nation coming in as hosts that you just we just needed to find the right keys to galvanize people to jump
01:13:36
on board and and for people to show them communities to show themselves off. And
01:13:43
we got it right, you know, and I could watch it growing and I knew this was going to be great. And then to see it
01:13:49
just take off at the end was just was fantastic. >> And the line uh that was used was um a
01:13:55
stadium of a stadium of 4 million. Um that sort of became like a mission statement. Can you remember the origins
01:13:59
of that line? >> Yeah, it it the the clever people that were piecing together a bid to host the
01:14:06
tournament um working New Zealand rugby came up with this and they were right. what they were saying and this is sort
01:14:14
of goes back to about 2005 is that New Zealand you go back to that time is the spiritual home of rugby the
01:14:22
All blacks you know >> and so that what they were saying is you bring this rugby world cup to New
01:14:28
Zealand and we will give everyone the greatest rugby experience that was perfect for the bid because the
01:14:35
people who were voting on where it would go it resonated with them they many [clears throat] of them had played
01:14:41
against the All Blacks and they respected, you know, that and that history. And so it was a really clever bid um
01:14:50
catchphrase. But when we started working on it and started thinking about what's
01:14:55
the the story of the tournament, >> we thought no, it can't just be about
01:15:00
rugby. >> And so we gradually evolved this stadium of 4 million from a pure rugby story. We
01:15:08
kept always kept rugby at the heart of it because it had to be. But we started spreading it so that it had reasons why
01:15:17
all sorts of communities around New Zealand and people's could connect with it in their own way without having to
01:15:24
commit to rugby as opposed to committing to New Zealand hosting and you know people saw the opportunity and it just
01:15:32
sort of mushroomed you know even [sighs] >> like Deneden suddenly decided Carisbrook
01:15:38
was a dog and they'd build a new stadium And from a riskmanagement point of view,
01:15:44
you're looking at this and thinking, "God, are they going to finish this on
01:15:47
time and and it was going to have a a roof over the top? Can they even cuz at this stage we didn't know these sorts of
01:15:55
things, could they even grow grass on the ground?" Well, the this was a consortium of construction people that
01:16:03
were were engaged to build this. They themselves made a conscious decision that although they knew during the
01:16:12
construction period they would hit lots and lots of problems with each other. They would shove those problems, they
01:16:20
wouldn't necessarily resolve them if they couldn't, but they would put them
01:16:24
aside and they would concentrate on getting the stadium built in time as a contribution to the success of
01:16:33
Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. And that's what they did. And and you won't
01:16:38
remember this, but they were building a um a new uh motorway sort of out to the airport in Oakuckland. And likewise,
01:16:48
Fletchers were leading a consortium that were doing this. And they'd made exactly
01:16:53
the same decision. and they said, "Our contribution to this is to finish this
01:16:57
motorway, get it ready so that when people arrive in New Zealand for the Rugby World Cup, this is ready and
01:17:03
working and they can enjoy their first impressions of New Zealand coming in from the airport are good ones."
01:17:08
>> And and I went along, you know, during that construction time, I would go along
01:17:13
and speak to their workers and tell them the story of Rugby World Cup and everyone was into it big time and this
01:17:19
was happening in every direction. Um, >> so what year is this? This is sort of
01:17:25
well it started 2007 this work but it really probably intensified around 2009 um 910
01:17:33
and you know so we had all these we were running the rugby tournament but we had
01:17:38
all these projects happening around New Zealand that we were connected into that
01:17:42
were all doing it for the same reason >> and it was just inspiring and and you
01:17:46
just knew you know everyone was going to make this work >> and they did. And then there's
01:17:53
unforeseen things like the Christ Church earthquakes. Did you did you lose like literally lose sleep over those sort of
01:17:59
things? That must have been one of the toughest decisions you've ever had to
01:18:01
make in your life. >> Well, actually the decision was easy, but the emotional
01:18:06
impact was enormous. So, you know, the Christ Church um that happened in February 2011
01:18:15
>> and we were sitting in a Rugby World Cup board meeting in Oakland at Eden Park
01:18:20
and we had I don't know why but we had the TVs on without the sound and we suddenly started seeing what was
01:18:26
happening in Christ Church breaking news and we realized you know what a major this was going to be. And
01:18:34
so the next two weeks we had, you know, cuz the government was into this big time, every service that you needed,
01:18:43
police, whatever, they were into it. And so it wasn't hard to to to extract the information we needed. And
01:18:51
what became really clear and and topped off I think with an inspection one day of Lancaster Park and seeing what a mess
01:18:59
it was >> is that the decision was obvious we couldn't go there. >> But then communicating that to the
01:19:07
Christ Church people who were in the worst moments of their lives. And so what we did is we we staged the
01:19:12
communication over a period of two to three weeks to take him on a journey so that when when we made our decision, it
01:19:18
had a much better chance of being accepted than it would do if we'd come straight out and said no show. Even
01:19:25
though we knew really early on there was no show. Um and [snorts] then we had to
01:19:30
concentrate really hard on how to, you know, we're talking about a stadium of 4
01:19:33
million. How do you keep >> Christ Church engaged? So, a lot of work went into finding ways of doing that and
01:19:42
we did okay in the end. >> How did you do it? >> Well, um well, we had to, you know, we'd had
01:19:50
seven games were were set down to be played at Lancaster Park and we'd sold 28 million bucks worth of tickets at the
01:19:56
time the earthquake happened. All those games had to be reallocated around New Zealand and you couldn't just send seven
01:20:02
games to some other place. So, you it was a hell of an exercise. We kept as many of them in the South Island as
01:20:09
possible so that access of Christ Church people who wanted to go would be closer.
01:20:14
Um some we had to send to Oakland. Well, the airlines and the hotels said we will
01:20:21
we will anyone who had an air ticket to go to Christ Church could change it free
01:20:26
of charge to go to Oakland. The hotels would charge them only the same rates that whatever people had booked in
01:20:31
Oakland. Um some people in Oakland started up a free bulleting so anyone from Christ Church
01:20:39
would come up and stay with them for free. It was some amazing stuff went on in the opening ceremony which was an
01:20:45
amazing uh ceremony. We had Jon Almo was was a centerpiece, but you might remember there was a little
01:20:55
kid that he brought onto the field. Um, and he was wearing a Canterbury jersey, you know, and he became a bit of a star
01:21:04
of of the opening ceremony. Um uh three of the teams, touring teams, well the All Blacks plus Australia and
01:21:14
England all agreed to go down to Christ Church and spend well they didn't agree.
01:21:19
They said this is what we're going to do. Martin Johnson leading England. Robbie Deans was in charge of Australia
01:21:25
and Robbiey's from Christ Church obviously. They took their teams down to Christ
01:21:29
Church during the tournament. They they stayed there so people could connect with them, you know. Um
01:21:37
it it but I mean God [snorts] it was it was awful. >> Um >> knowing what you know now, were you
01:21:48
qualified for the job or did you grow into it? >> Uh bit of both. >> Uh
01:21:54
>> I don't know if you can ever be fully qualified for a >> Listen, I I'd had a good background in
01:22:00
events and world world cricket cup world cups. Um uh I' I'd had the pressures of cricket
01:22:11
which in the end were nowhere near close to what rugby world cup was but it still
01:22:15
had had meant that I had experience been under real pressure and people had seen
01:22:19
me under pressure. So there was that sort of thing, but then uh you you have to learn it on the job. But we did have
01:22:26
four years and it was lovely because it was quite gentle to start with and then it just gradually grew and grew and
01:22:31
grew. So you could grow with it, you know, and uh I had an extraordinarily talented team working with me because we
01:22:39
could pick the best of the best, you know, everyone wanted to work on this. And so the the sort of people that were
01:22:46
working on Rugby World Cup were just brilliant. And so that workforce by the time it was, you know, getting close to
01:22:55
the event, that would have been the most talented workforce in New Zealand. Would your reflection on the event be
01:23:01
different if the All Blacks had hadn't won or was the rugby sort of irrelevant?
01:23:04
It >> to me it was irrelevant and that was it was always about how would New Zealand
01:23:10
be seen as the host of a world event and we already knew before the final we'd
01:23:16
nailed it. And and in fact my my um I'll tell you the story and you know who
01:23:21
Steven Jones is. So Steven Jones is a rugby writer from England. Oh yes. >> And he has made a living out of needling
01:23:29
New Zealand rugby and the All Blacks for years and years and years and and you know he'd sort of he'd condemn the
01:23:35
hacker and say it should not be allowed and make awful comments about it and New
01:23:39
Zealand rug he was persona non grata with New Zealand rugby. Um and he was the head of the rugby tribe of
01:23:47
journalists in England who hated the idea the rugby world cup was coming to New Zealand by the way. They thought
01:23:53
what a you know that that's a real step backwards that it comes to this little
01:23:58
country in [snorts] the middle of nowhere. So 2 years before the event I I emailed Steven and said can we catch up?
01:24:08
You know I'm coming to England. Why don't we catch up? And so we agreed to
01:24:12
meet. He lived south of London so far somewhere and we found a halfway in between where I was and he was in a
01:24:18
restaurant, Italian restaurant and we caught up at about noon and we rolled out at about 5:00 p.m. after a couple of
01:24:27
bottles of of red and he said I told him the story of the stadium of 4 million my
01:24:34
vision our vision and he said if you can deliver on that then I will tell the world that that is a great thing so he
01:24:43
and I then stayed in close contact New Zealand rugby didn't like this idea but
01:24:48
wasn't their business and I just made sure every year I'd go to England and to France and I'd get the
01:24:55
journalists together and I'd take him to a pub and give him free drinks and free
01:25:01
pizza cuz the jouros that that really worked hard, you know, and and I'd do a
01:25:07
gentle cell, not a hard cell, gentle cell all the time. And so I got to know them quite well.
01:25:12
>> Made them feel valued, I guess. >> Yeah. And then and then they loved the
01:25:16
the idea that we were spreading this around New Zealand, even if they hated it going to New Zealand. I loved what
01:25:21
was happening in terms of preparation, communities preparing to host teams. And then Steven, I I emailed him about 3
01:25:28
months before the tournament and I said, "Listen, I've got a holiday home at
01:25:31
Tapo. Why don't you stay there for a while while you're out here?" And
01:25:36
>> Oh, you went deep. [laughter] >> And he said, "Yeah, sure. Love to." And
01:25:40
he said, "Do you mind if I take a few of my Jouro mates with me?" And I said,
01:25:42
"No, no, absolutely. Go for it." um he fell in love with Annie as well
01:25:46
cuz Annie turned up at that long lunch and um uh so he would often refer to her um uh long-suffering wife and so
01:25:57
[snorts] there's just a there was a real connection there and so he did he came
01:26:00
and stayed at Tapo and >> Jeez, I can't believe you gave him the keys to your house. Well, it, you know,
01:26:07
I was sacrificing serious. You took me >> sacrificing it for New Zealand [laughter]
01:26:11
>> and um but because we delivered, you know, he reflected that in the way he
01:26:16
wrote and so did all of the British journals >> and so we turned what could have been a
01:26:22
big risk into into actually what was a real endorsement from those people. >> Um [laughter]
01:26:29
>> Oh, that's a great story. Is that in your book? >> Yeah, it is.
01:26:32
>> It is. And then I' I stayed in touch with him, you know, and if I emailed him
01:26:35
now, he'd be really receptive. You know, it's just I don't get these free trips
01:26:39
to England anymore with jobs. So, >> was there a moment during the tournament
01:26:43
where you and your team could sort of exhale and think, "Yeah, we've done it."
01:26:46
>> Well, it it so once the tournament started or >> uh listen, the first night of the
01:26:52
tournament, which was the opening, the opening ceremony was unbelievable. It was brilliant. Um but actually also what
01:26:59
happened that night was the train broke down between downtown Oakland and Eden Park. Now that wasn't our responsibility
01:27:07
but it had a huge impact on how people it was bloody stupid because it was the biggest risk we could see transport-wise
01:27:14
in the whole tournament and but the the train line there only had one track. So if a train broke down, it broke down.
01:27:20
There was nothing you could do about it. So we were telling people not to come downtown and then try to get
01:27:27
to Eden Park. Well, people ignored it and this there were, you know, I I don't
01:27:31
know how many people, but 100,000 plus down on the waterfront on the opening afternoon was massive. Yeah. There were
01:27:38
screens at the cloud and there were public events. >> Yeah. >> And uh and then of course people tried
01:27:43
to get to Eden. Well, of course they had trouble and so a lot of people were late
01:27:46
to the start of the game which was, you know, a bit of criticism and I'm thinking, well, you know, you took on
01:27:51
bit too much there trying to do both. But um so that caused a bit of angst and then the games kept rolling out and and
01:28:00
you could see the the uh support that people were giving it right around the country and you could see all the teams
01:28:06
relaxing into it and enjoying it. But we still had this we had a financial issue hang over our heads. The co the
01:28:16
tournament was budgeted to make a $30 million loss. I think it the budget was uh I think 300 million say against a
01:28:25
cost of 270 million and both the government and New Zealand rugby who were responsible for the loss were
01:28:33
putting enormous pressure on us and and we had to hit a ticket revenue you know say the ticket revenue was 270
01:28:43
million and the previous largest ticket revenue event in New Zealand's history
01:28:50
was sold out Lions Tour in 2005 which off the back of every game sold out it generated 24 million. So we had to do 11
01:28:58
times that to hit ticket budget. So, we're up against it the whole way, but we were tracking. But then we would get
01:29:06
to the start of the a day or two before the tournament. We're about 20 million
01:29:11
short, 25 million short. And I was catching it in the neck from I remember, you know, I'll never forget one
01:29:18
journalist had me on live radio and she just ripped the [ __ ] out of me [snorts]
01:29:22
about you're never going to reach this target. And it didn't matter what I said
01:29:26
to her. She just had it in for me and and the tournament. Well, what we knew is that two things that people didn't
01:29:34
didn't think about. One is once the tournament's up and running, you're
01:29:38
still selling tickets right through to the time it finishes. So, so you you didn't reach the end of ticket sales
01:29:45
before the tournament. It was kept going. And the second thing was the magnificence of the opening ceremony
01:29:51
galvanized people to say, I want to be there. And so, ticket sales after the opening ceremony just took off. But even
01:29:58
so, 20 million was a big target. Well, we hit that 20 million target um 2 days before the final and you know
01:30:09
the four me and the three senior managers were sitting in Oakuckland at a hotel room when the news came through
01:30:15
and we just looked at each other and thought, "Wow, you know that that was something we probably between ourselves
01:30:21
unspoken thought we might struggle on this one." Mhm. >> And then we hit it and we didn't even
01:30:28
have to sort of we bought a bottle of champagne and we just quietly celebrated hitting that but we still had you you
01:30:35
couldn't relax because you couldn't relax until all the teams had left New
01:30:40
Zealand and gone home and so you know you on edge but I have to say when we're
01:30:45
at the final and the All Blacks had scraped in which which even though it wasn't our number one objective still we
01:30:51
knew would help enormously in terms of the thing and because they it was a close final was probably a good thing.
01:30:58
Um cuz it felt like everyone then was connected even more cuz they'd been the
01:31:03
people inside the park had been dragged through 90 minutes of psychological hell
01:31:07
to get there. >> Actually months of psychological hell. >> Yeah. There was Dan Carter getting
01:31:12
injured. >> Um Steven Donald story was brilliant. >> Richie McCoy training on a broken foot.
01:31:18
>> Yeah. No, they were brilliant. All these stories but we weren't connecting with
01:31:22
the All Blacks. [clears throat] You know, for us, they were just one of the 20 teams. Sounds odd, but that's the way
01:31:26
we decided to do it because if we favored them in any way, other teams would pick up on this and their junos,
01:31:33
and we would get absolutely nailed rightly. >> And so, they for us were just another
01:31:38
team, but of course, in your heart, you want the All Blacks to win the tournament. So, it really wasn't until
01:31:43
we were sitting there um at Eden Park in the final that I actually for the first time switched on
01:31:49
to them and and hoped. But the funny thing is I'm sitting in the stands at Eden Park cuz I'm running the
01:31:55
tournament. I get quite good tickets and um I'm sitting next to the guy who had
01:32:00
run the World Cup in France four years before and he had become a good friend. He's another one who who stayed at Tapo,
01:32:07
him and his family. [snorts] And um uh he that and even though we had been really good friends,
01:32:17
suddenly I'm realizing he's realizing we're sitting next to each other and
01:32:21
France are playing New Zealand and this is the ultimate test. So the two of us for the whole event were as quiet as can
01:32:27
be respecting each [laughter] other. So it [snorts] was Yeah, it was it was memorable. But you know when we were
01:32:35
having a few drinks after the game had finished even Murray McCauley, Minister of Sport came up to me and shook my
01:32:40
hand. Now Murray and I had had our moments with each other or he was the minister so he'd had his moments with me
01:32:47
and so it was quite a nice thing to in the end know that he was happy. Um and of course Jock Hobbs
01:32:55
>> rest in peace. >> Yeah. Well, you know, he jocked the cancer had started to emerge during the
01:33:00
leadup to the event and so he'd had to step down from chairing the board cuz he
01:33:05
was my boss and but he was kept fully involved in the whole thing. So to sit with him
01:33:11
after the final and know that we'd achieved what he'd been it had been his
01:33:15
dream right at the start to bring the World Cup to New Zealand. Uh and so for him to be able to see that through, you
01:33:21
know, he died uh a few months after the event, incredibly sad story, but but um but he had at least seen it succeed
01:33:31
beyond even his expectations. Yeah, I'll never forget that moment of him presenting Mccor with his cat for 100
01:33:37
tests. It's incredible. >> Um >> you mentioned Mari McCulli before. There
01:33:41
must have been a bunch of people like him whose when your phone started buzzing and you saw a name on the
01:33:45
screen, you your heart sunk a little bit. Who was on that list? There must have been journalists.
01:33:50
>> Mari was top [laughter] uh by a considerable distance. >> Um and uh
01:34:01
we didn't we didn't gel [snorts] easily mainly because I didn't understand
01:34:07
politics enough and I didn't really realize the power imbalance between us. I sort of regarded us more of colleagues
01:34:16
and whatnot. And I made a few false steps and he came down on me, you know, a ton of bricks.
01:34:24
But then and and I that happened about 2 years before the tournament or 18 months
01:34:29
before and I had to fight my way back from that um to gain his confidence after that was
01:34:36
it was pretty tough. Ah. >> Um, but also what I what I saw was how Murray had the power within government
01:34:47
to make things happen and he over the period that he was in charge, Minister of Rugby World Cup and particularly in
01:34:57
the last 3 months before the event, he made a whole lot of things happen in government to support us And so he,
01:35:09
you know, he did a fantastic job enabling us and enabling New Zealand to succeed and and by the end of it, we'd
01:35:19
sort of, I think, made peace with each other and even more afterwards. >> Um, well,
01:35:25
>> I suppose you both had like a just an unimaginable amount of pressure on you
01:35:29
for for getting it right. >> Well, he had John Key on his back saying, "Mate, we've staked our
01:35:34
reputation." cuz when when national got voted in halfway through our preparation
01:35:39
key had come out and said I've got two major objectives. One is the economy and
01:35:44
the other is rugby world cup. We're thinking [snorts] that's us. Um and so
01:35:52
uh there was and and and then key said to Mali, "Well, you're our guy. You make
01:35:59
sure this happens." And so you're you're probably right is that Murray was under under pretty
01:36:06
strong pressure from Key to make sure he got it right. Um and he transferred some
01:36:11
of that stress onto me at times. [laughter] But but he was a brilliant enabler >> in the end. So you know I realized
01:36:19
afterwards I was a bit naive and I'd made some mistakes at the time he started really getting into me and if
01:36:26
I'd been smarter I would have avoided those and there wouldn't have been those
01:36:29
sort of issues. But I didn't I just wasn't politically savvy enough at the
01:36:33
time and so I coped it from him and it was uncomfortable. It was really uncomfortable.
01:36:38
>> What like can you offer any examples? >> Oh, I was just sort of sidelined a bit.
01:36:42
You even though I was the CEO of the thing, they'd go around me a fair bit and
01:36:46
>> stuff to get some things done. >> Right. Just cuz they lost confidence in
01:36:50
you. >> Yeah, a little bit. And so I had to steal myself and say, "Right, do I get out of this now or do I
01:36:59
hang on in there and fight my way back into it?" And the only way I could fight
01:37:04
my way back into it was doing it their way rather than doing it my way. >> Okay?
01:37:10
>> And that was quite a learning for me. Um, but you know, I shut my mouth and I
01:37:16
buckled down and that's what I did. I didn't like it much. Um, but I knew that
01:37:23
if I wanted to stay in it, that's the way I had to do it. So, I did it >> and, you know, gradually, you know, got
01:37:30
it back on an even keel, which was good, which meant that and that by the time I
01:37:34
got it on an even keel, it was probably >> two or three months before the tournament. So, I was able to actually
01:37:39
enjoy the tournament. In fact, you know, the role of CEO quite of what you in a in an event like that, you are the main
01:37:47
storyteller. And that was something that I was good at. I could tell the story that people would it would resonate with
01:37:53
them and they'd buy into it. >> Well, by the time the tournament starts,
01:37:58
the need for me to tell those stories had disappeared. It was already happening. And so the you know the
01:38:05
running of the tournament rested with my operational team headed by the Walsh who
01:38:09
was just unbelievable. And so I could sort of relax during the tournament while she made sure things
01:38:18
happened which she did. Uh so I actually enjoyed the tournament. I actually enjoyed rocking around and turning up
01:38:25
and watching all these games of rugby. And >> I suppose the job's done by that point
01:38:28
is >> well my job was hers wasn't. she had to make and I was responsible if it if it
01:38:33
went wrong, >> but she's so capable that it worked. >> Um, and then you needed a bit of luck. I
01:38:42
the one of the there's a few things if I stand up and tell a story I'll talk
01:38:47
about the Tongan team arriving at Oakland airport and the Tongan community in Oakland going out there and the red
01:38:53
flags and >> and you know bringing traffic to a standstill and their enthusiasm and the
01:38:59
way people sort of really bought into that >> early on there was a game at Eden Park
01:39:04
between Australia and Ireland and in the stadium it felt like you were in Dublin
01:39:10
you know there were 55,000 people dressed up in green supporting the Irish. Um, and the Irish won a
01:39:18
completely unexpected victory which turned the the expectations of the tournament on its head cuz it we we
01:39:25
thought we would head towards Australia New Zealand final, but it actually that result meant that we were going to be
01:39:31
playing Australia in the semi as long as we got that far. And uh so that was a bit nerve-wracking
01:39:37
because we got to the semi playing Australia, Robbie Deans as captain uh as coach, Quaid Cooper as public enemy
01:39:43
number one. If they had beaten us then, you know, that could have soued a whole lot of people quite significantly,
01:39:51
>> but um it didn't happen. >> Um but you know, there were just moments
01:39:55
in the tournament. Steve Chu and I were driving to New Plymouth for a game and we went through King Country in a little
01:40:02
town called Benedale and you know Benadale's got a population of about 10 and one main street and the lamposts in
01:40:11
the street each of them had handpainted murals on them depicting each of the 20 teams in the tournament and the one shop
01:40:17
was just covered in the bunting of Rugby World Cup and we looked at each other and thought
01:40:22
>> you know this is how far this tournament's got into New Zealand. It
01:40:25
was brilliant. So there was sort of all those brilliant memories >> and you got recognized for it in the uh
01:40:31
2012 New Year's honors list. >> Yeah. >> What did you get? Um >> companion of not quite sure what it
01:40:38
means but companion of >> services to sports admin. Yeah. What what did that mean to you?
01:40:42
>> Oh that was that was uh really nice. I I think I saw the reaction of my family to
01:40:49
it. you know, my brothers and sister and and Annie um and they were really thrilled. I [snorts]
01:40:57
my my greatest satisfaction wasn't that it was actually being part of select,
01:41:04
you know, successfully delivering the tournament. That was just a nice sort of way to top it off in the end. But but
01:41:11
then I saw the reaction of them and I thought, well, you know, they care. >> Um so, you know, that was nice.
01:41:20
>> [gasps] >> Man, what a career. What a life. >> It's gone in a few different directions.
01:41:24
>> Yeah. So, you're about to turn 67. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How How do you feel at this stage
01:41:29
of your life? >> Well, are you in a reflective stage or you still smashing goals?
01:41:34
>> I thought I was moving into a reflective stage a few times in the last 10 years.
01:41:39
You know, I would I would finish Rugby World Cup and then I'm sort of saying,
01:41:43
Annie, oh, maybe I'll just cut back a bit and whatever. Then I walked into tourism and that wasn't cutting back. It
01:41:49
was fullon. And then uh by that stage we were looking we were living in Wellington for the Rugby World
01:41:57
Cup and tourism and we wanted to get back to Oakland and Dave Higgins had been talking to me about getting
01:42:02
involved with Dookco and um so in the end I said yeah okay let's let's do that.
01:42:11
So that you know that there was nothing quiet about that job. It was just full on the whole time. And
01:42:21
uh it took me into really uncomfortable territory because you know I was a kid who had a pretty protected upbringing
01:42:29
and whatnot. And I was stepping into the middle of uh something that you know this was this was they they were filled
01:42:39
with they had a staff of kids that had had hard lives. >> They were talented but they you know
01:42:45
each had their stories that would were depicted pretty hard times and they didn't know me. You know, the
01:42:53
interesting thing, I could walk in there and out of a staff of seven or eight, they didn't have a clue who I was.
01:43:00
>> So, I had no um head start on how they would think about me. I had to earn everything
01:43:10
>> to get their respect and cooperation. So, that was a that was a a really
01:43:16
interesting uh exercise of trying to and it was all an open plan office. And there's no me sitting in a in an office
01:43:25
by myself. It was we're all pitched in together, including Dean and David. So,
01:43:29
it was a it was a vibrant, volatile environment. >> Yeah, I know quite a bit of the team.
01:43:35
Eclectic bunch of people. Yeah. Dean, David, Kalina, um Stenway. >> Odd bunch of people.
01:43:42
>> Well, [laughter] but but this was >> wonderful people. But >> but but this was you know I guess David
01:43:49
just David himself you know people don't recognize his genius. I do. He's got you know he's got a few
01:44:01
shortcomings. Um but he has got a genius that I haven't seen in anyone else. and
01:44:08
uh he would he would choose people that there's no formula to it. It's just
01:44:16
whether he looked at them and thought you can do a job for us. And so you're
01:44:20
right, it was >> an interesting bunch and I learned an enormous amount because there I am
01:44:27
uh you know suppose I was 60 at that stage never been exposed to this sort of environment in my life hanging on in
01:44:36
there trying to look confident but you know hanging on in there and then there was one side of the business that was
01:44:43
about celebrity events and and there was some neat stuff that we did like um Nigel Lawson and or one night with
01:44:51
Richie Mccor and Dan Carter Vector Arena. And so those sorts of things which I was comfortable with. I knew
01:44:57
that sort of side of it. But then there was the boxing side. Well, I you know when I'd been talking to David and Dean
01:45:04
about doing the job, I'd never really for a second given any thought to the boxing side. And probably because at
01:45:10
that stage they didn't have Joseph Parker wasn't a big player. Well, you
01:45:17
know, I walk in there and uh realize, okay, I'm going to have to be pretty closely involved in running a
01:45:24
series of boxing events and started to to see what they were doing with Joseph. And you know, at that stage when we we
01:45:34
started, he was he was a complete unknown >> kid they' picked out of South Oakland
01:45:41
>> um who had some talent but but not universally recognized. And Bob Jones
01:45:45
was one who who, you know, into boxing but didn't rate Parker and was quite critical of Dooku supporting them. And
01:45:55
they only they contracted two fighters, Parker and uh a young Aussie kid called Jeff Horn lived in Brisbane,
01:46:06
>> little welterweight. And so they started running events to show these kids off and to work them through
01:46:13
the world rankings, which are a maze. You know, there's four different rankings and and David and Dean would
01:46:19
just be constantly plotting how can we get these kids through this to the point where they could be challenging for a
01:46:25
world title. It was fascinating to watch. And of course, I'm I'm trying to
01:46:29
get myself up to speed with boxing. At the same time, Annie's looking at me and
01:46:33
thinking, "I don't know why you're doing this, and I don't like it." You know,
01:46:37
she hated the boxing side, and most of the family felt that the same way. So, [laughter] so I'm trying to contend with
01:46:45
that. And um and yet we started to make progress with these two kids. and and David and Dean were just unbelievably
01:46:55
good about how they threaded them through the rankings and how they wooed the various world body people to needle
01:47:04
them into giving Joseph a go or Jeff a go >> and then us creating these boxing events
01:47:09
that were designed to show them off and this is where David and Dean were spending all of their own money um there
01:47:15
wasn't it wasn't particularly profitable at that stage but then the kids both started to
01:47:22
succeed and we started to get them going and uh and then it became apparent you know
01:47:28
what both these kids could get to the point where they could fight for world titles. So I'm one stage I'm doing a box
01:47:35
refereeing course to try and make myself understand a bit more cuz I was looking
01:47:39
at the ring and thinking these are so close I can't tell the difference as to
01:47:42
who's winning who's losing. >> And anyway I did that that became slightly clearer.
01:47:48
Uh but it was just the theater of taking them through and then of course you know
01:47:52
Joseph got his chance but but to get his chance and to make sure it happened in Oakuckland. David and Dean put
01:47:58
everything on the line for that to happen >> and you know so and Joseph just snuck in
01:48:07
in the he he fought a guy called Carlos Tackom Tackom and it was an eliminator fight to see
01:48:13
who would fight for a world title and seriously I thought he'd lost. I think
01:48:18
most people thought I had just missed out and the the judges saw it our way. So, he won that. So, he got a title
01:48:24
fight, but he they then had to put up an enormous amount of money. But the difference in that 2-year period, 18
01:48:30
months, 19 months, the first fight I was invol involved in, Joseph fought it at um Manacow Feladrome, and we had grossed
01:48:39
$28,000 of hospitality. In the last two fights that I was involved in, the Carlos Tackham and then
01:48:47
Andrew Ruiz who fought for the title, >> uh we sold more than $2 million worth of
01:48:54
corporate hospitality um to people and uh we did it we most of that was done in in a space of 48 hours where we would
01:49:06
warm people up. We're going on market. We're going on market. Then we'd go and
01:49:11
the whole thing would go crazy for 48 hours and we'd sell all this hospitality
01:49:18
and and then you know the I I'd said to David and Dean Wright, sorry, but I'm
01:49:24
finishing. I've I'm worn out and they desperately tried to hang on uh hang on
01:49:30
to me for a while. But I said, listen, I'm sorry. I just can't do it anymore.
01:49:35
Um but Parker had his fight and he won and he became the world champion WBO heavyweight I think. Um a month or so
01:49:46
later they sell out Suncorp Stadium in Brisbane and Jeff Horn beats Manny Pacquiao to become world champion. Two
01:49:54
young kids. They only chose to. They only contracted two. This is why I think they've got brilliance there. Both of
01:50:01
them became world champions. Um, and even even when Parker was fighting for the world, Annie wouldn't come.
01:50:12
Only one brother would come along. That was it. Um, so, you know, [snorts] so I had to get out. [laughter]
01:50:19
>> Creating tension at home. Yeah. And um, David's had significant success since
01:50:23
then with the symphony format as well. Yeah. He's a he's a genius. He is.
01:50:28
>> Yeah. Um, is there anything you're still working on as a man at this stage of in
01:50:34
your life? >> Well, well, I hadn't finished telling you. But I was sort of there was a risk
01:50:39
I was drifting towards retirement and I was still heavily involved in New Zealand cricket and as a board director
01:50:45
and then I became the chair but actually I then uh got the opportunity to start uh pulling together
01:50:59
the the board chairs of the various sports in New Zealand at a national level. And you know this is the for the past 15
01:51:09
years this 20 years this is what I've sort of almost specialized in doing is
01:51:13
grabbing groups of people and getting them together into into cohesive communities and so I got the
01:51:21
chance to do this that started 5 years ago and that that's been incredibly stimulating. So, you know, most of the
01:51:28
people listening to this will be yawning now about, you know, this sort of thing,
01:51:32
but for me, it's incredibly motivating. And and what it's done also is it's
01:51:37
given me a focus for this part of my career that I didn't expect. >> And so, I'm totally motivated around
01:51:44
this stuff now to make it work and to get people, you know, as as competent as they can be when they're
01:51:51
cheering the boards of these national sporting organizations cuz they're full
01:51:55
of risk those jobs. So, [snorts] you know, that keeps me going. So, I've I've
01:51:58
probably changed now from from I I I don't think I'd have the resilience to
01:52:03
do a CEO role again, >> but I've got the resilience to form these communities and get them working
01:52:09
with each other. >> Resilience or like just energy, time, motivation. >> I just, you know, I think each time you
01:52:18
do a CEO role, you get beaten up >> quite a lot. and I was sick of being beaten up, you
01:52:26
know, even though I'd had lots of good times out of those roles, I just couldn't be bothered doing that again.
01:52:33
>> And I so I didn't want to expose myself to that. Um, so the these other ones
01:52:39
have less of that happening, >> but are still really intellectually stimulating to try and
01:52:47
get a bunch of people um into a better shape than what they are when you start. And that's been, you
01:52:53
know, that's been good fun. And that that sort of led, you know, I mentioned
01:52:56
to you a little bit earlier about I'm taking the government on at the moment
01:53:00
about some gambling legislation where they in the first part of forming that legislation
01:53:07
um they've completely stuffed up >> and but I've I suddenly had a whole
01:53:12
community that I've been working with that I could galvanize into this and the
01:53:16
government got completely surprised by how strong we were, how quickly we were strong to say to them, you're doing the
01:53:23
wrong M >> so you know those sort of things are good fun. >> You're never going to stop. Eh,
01:53:30
>> I don't want to stop. But what I what's happened now, and this has been the case
01:53:35
for the last four or five years, is I'm totally in control of my own diary. >> Yeah.
01:53:41
>> The sorts of things I do largely I determine when I do them, which means
01:53:47
that that um I feel in control of my life, >> you know. Um, last week I put some bookings in place
01:53:57
for Annie and I to go to Europe next year for 6 weeks and we're going to walk
01:54:02
the Camino walk in Spain. Um, now you know, we're not going to walk 800 km, which is the full length of one
01:54:13
of them, but we'll walk probably 3 to 400 km. And all we'll be doing is just
01:54:17
walking through countryside in Spain and talking to each other and the other people that are on the trip and just
01:54:23
basically, you know, living in that that world. And I can do that sort of thing now. So I'm
01:54:29
setting up my whole diary for next year now carving out those sorts of windows and it's quite a freeing thing to be
01:54:35
able to do that and yet at the same time still be active in a lot of, >> you know, different business things.
01:54:41
>> Yeah. Are you happy? Are you enjoying this phase of life? >> Oh yeah. Fantastic.
01:54:45
>> Yeah. Um, I I think I I mentioned to you also earlier, you know, the reality of
01:54:52
your mortality starts to hit home more the older you get. >> And so therefore,
01:54:59
um, the the motivation to not waste your time uh, is great, but but doing stuff that I
01:55:12
enjoy. Now, you know, a lot of the stuff I do is hard slog, but I enjoy it. >> Um, and then there's, you know, the
01:55:19
family stuff and whatnot and and Annie's just retired from teaching, although
01:55:24
she's doing a lot of relieving stuff, but, you know, we we can go to a family home in Tapo now that
01:55:32
Steven Jones has moved out. [laughter] And, um, [snorts] you know, we can do that whenever we want sort of stuff. and
01:55:39
and getting involved in cycling's been really interesting cuz they have been
01:55:42
through really tough times >> and I knew that >> and I thought it'd be really neat to
01:55:48
help them with the recovery process and it's been it's been as interesting as
01:55:54
now I know nothing and I'm not learning anything about what happens on the track
01:55:59
with cycling. I'm just concentrating on on the organization and how it can run
01:56:04
as well as it needs to. So, you know, those sort of things that I would never have known two years ago that's what I'd
01:56:10
been involved in. But opportunities arise and you look at them and quickly say, "Oh, well, yes, all right, or no, I
01:56:16
won't get involved in that." >> Well, you've got so much experience,
01:56:20
>> haven't you? And um your kids, your four kids, all in their 30s now. Have you got
01:56:25
grandkids? Are you a grandparent? >> Four grandkids. >> Yeah. Um, and that's another phase of
01:56:29
your life, you know, you get into and and you know, my kids are turning out as Annie and I would hope.
01:56:39
So, we love and and really admire each of them. Um, they've hooked up with with
01:56:44
good people. Um, so we like them a lot. Um, and now the grandkitties have come along and that's so there's four now and
01:56:53
by my count there should be eight by the time they're finished if they're
01:56:56
listening. Um, >> no pressure, >> no pressure, >> no urgency. >> And so we're sort of adapting to that
01:57:02
life of of having to be part of those kids' lives. And it's and it's
01:57:07
brilliant. >> Yeah. >> Um, and so, you know, there's there's always
01:57:12
things happening and and so we are being kept going forward. Um, so I don't want
01:57:19
to think about [snorts] stopping. M >> you know I I can evolve what I do but I can't see a time of stopping.
01:57:28
>> Your grandkids, how how do you hope they see you as a man? >> Uh you you quickly realize that it
01:57:35
doesn't matter what you have done or what you think you've done, >> they're not interested.
01:57:42
>> They are only interested in how you connect with them. And so the concentration goes on to
01:57:50
connecting with them in a way that that is fun for both them and us. >> And so um you know we've got to the
01:57:56
stage now where two of them we can take them away down to Tapo for a few days [laughter] and cross our fingers and
01:58:03
>> and um must be nice to give them back at the end. >> Oh god. Yes. And um but you know they
01:58:09
[snorts] >> you know we every Saturday morning in the winter we're off to soccer to watch
01:58:13
the six-year-old play. And it's just fun watching them grow. Yeah. >> Uh, and having a tiny bit of influence,
01:58:19
not much because it's their parents that are leading them, >> but we can chime in there and and just
01:58:25
be people that they like being with, and that's that's what we want to make sure
01:58:29
it is. >> What's a perfect day off for you? >> You know, I'm useless having days off.
01:58:38
you know, if I'm if I'm sitting at home, Saturdays and Sundays to me, I potter
01:58:44
around doing different parts of work. Um, but I don't begrudge any of it and it's not
01:58:51
intrusive and this, you know, it might happen for 2 or 3 hours a day and it won't stop anything that Annie and I
01:58:57
decide we're going to do. Um, so I don't I don't switch off much. I read a lot. I read
01:59:08
two or three prime novels a week. Um, and you know that that's really important. Um
01:59:18
but uh yeah and we walk a lot together you know we walk around the streets around here and in Tapo and stuff and
01:59:27
that's um that's really relaxing and just staying connected to each other you
01:59:31
know cuz I think >> when I was a CEO under the I learned this in cricket is that I sort of got consumed by it and
01:59:42
when you're consumed by it you you sometimes I didn't see clearly enough
01:59:48
um around me in my family life and Annie let me know and I sort of learned that lesson. So even under the pressure of
01:59:56
rugby will cut uh it it wasn't a problem to keep a good balance but we've just
02:00:01
ensured um that we stay connected with each other um at all times and that's
02:00:08
that's really important. >> Yeah, I know you missed one of your your kids births. Uh Stephanie, you were
02:00:14
batting for New Zealand at the time. It >> was brilliant. Um so, so >> I just I just point that out as like
02:00:20
just one of the I'm sure many sacrifices you've made. >> Oh, yeah. But it turned into a a a great
02:00:25
thing for us to remember because >> so um this we decided we'd have a second kit and
02:00:34
and we you know with pregnancies we were lucky. It happened sort of quickly most
02:00:40
times. didn't even know about the last couple um just happened. Um but with Steph, we looked at the cricket schedule
02:00:49
and thought, "Right, there's a good gap there in November. [snorts] Let's go for it." And
02:00:57
um and Annie got pregnant and then New Zealand cricket suddenly decided we would go and play Australia in Perth
02:01:05
uh in November. And so I rang them up and said, "Well, you know, this is a bit
02:01:10
of a problem." and they said, "Don't worry, when's the baby due?" And the
02:01:12
baby was due about a week before the start of the test. So they said, "Don't
02:01:16
worry, stay in New Zealand till the baby's born and then come and join us."
02:01:20
Um, but of course, Steph was late. And in those days, you didn't go in for induced births or C-sections or
02:01:28
whatever. You sort of just waited. And so she she just wasn't arriving. And then um Annie said to me and Annie had
02:01:37
her mom with her who she probably had more confidence in around birth than [laughter] me and she said I'll just go.
02:01:45
So we went across and then it still Steph didn't come until about the second
02:01:50
day of the test match and um uh they were obviously we had a New Zealand crew over there for the test
02:02:01
match and Graeme V um Tony Vch's dad was leading it and he came to me and said
02:02:05
hey Paul Holmes wants to interview you and Annie on the 7:00 p.m. show uh the home show which was huge.
02:02:15
>> So we'll do it by satellite. and you come down to the ground and and Annie
02:02:20
will be at home with new baby. And so they sent round, you know, all the camera people to our house and deport
02:02:27
for her and um I was down at the ground. Um it was only about 8:00 in the morning
02:02:33
so it didn't interfere with the cricket. And Paul did this live cross and and
02:02:39
that was sensational in the sense that he gave us we had quarter of an hour talking to him and and then he said just
02:02:48
carry on talking to each other and we'll bug her off and and we did that. Um
02:02:53
which was neat and and so you know it became pretty high high profile about Steph's birth. Um, so it was it actually
02:03:03
was was fun what the way all that by the time I'd come back home some dear old
02:03:08
lady in Devport had knitted a New Zealand cricket jersey for Steph and you know it was all that and in those days
02:03:15
Dom it's hard to imagine now with the media coverage that exists everywhere but in those days we only had TV1 and TV
02:03:23
2 and News Talk ZB had just started >> and then the music channels and so if
02:03:30
cricket it was on TV one, everyone was watching it because there were only two channels to watch. So you were really
02:03:36
well known, particularly as it turned out, by older generations who, you know, would sit around home watching cricket
02:03:43
on TV. >> Yeah. >> Suited them. And so you you actually I was recognized by a lot of people
02:03:52
um just because that I was sitting on TV in their in their >> you know um family rooms
02:03:59
>> and it was sort of you know strange. >> Yeah. And and the home show that you
02:04:05
mentioned before that was a massive deal. Every everyone watched either the homes show or Shortland Street. Yeah.
02:04:11
>> And this is before Yeah. before smartphones before FaceTime. So to have
02:04:15
like a connection like that where you could um see your baby was a big deal. >> Oh, well, you know, I'd go away on a
02:04:21
tour and you get I'd have to write letters home once a week and they'd take a week to
02:04:28
get there and I could ring home, but you were taking pot luck cuz you could you had no
02:04:37
smartphones or anything. You couldn't organize a time. So, I just would guess
02:04:40
at a time and and if we got lucky, we could Annie and I could talk to each other. Um, but you could only afford to
02:04:47
talk for five, six, seven minutes cuz the cost was horrendous >> and and you know, I'm away for 3 months
02:04:53
and this is happening. >> Uh, so you do forget >> but that was what life was like. So, you
02:05:00
know, >> we didn't know any different. >> Didn't know any different.
02:05:03
>> Yeah. [snorts] [gasps] >> What are your best and worst habits? Uh
02:05:10
my well from a work point of view my one of my best habits is I'm really diligent. One of my worst habits is that
02:05:18
I drive people crazy with detail and you know just constantly at them. So the two things go hand in hand
02:05:28
really. >> It's quite funny. I had Sir Steve Hansen on the podcast and he he his theory is
02:05:32
that um with most people their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.
02:05:36
>> Yeah. Well, I think that's right. As I sometimes forget that in my enthusiasm
02:05:42
>> and also given that I control my own work life is that other people are on
02:05:47
the receiving end of and I'm I I sort of um you know I'm still useless. I sit
02:05:54
there and and communicate mainly by email and I do a lot of it on weekends cuz I spend the whole week talking to
02:06:01
people and don't have time to to tidy everything up. So at the weekends I sit
02:06:05
there and then people would be on the receiving end of emails from me on the weekend and they wouldn't know whether
02:06:11
to reply or not. And if I said please don't bother you know I'm just getting
02:06:15
it off my thing and it wouldn't matter. They feel like oh this guy I better respond to him quickly. So you know
02:06:21
>> anyway that's uh >> you need to use more emojis. [laughter] >> I haven't quite I can do that on the
02:06:28
smartphone. I don't know how to do it on a computer. Um but probably my worst habit at home is a failure to
02:06:36
actually apart from walking which I'm good. I really at this age need to be doing some some proper stretching and
02:06:44
strength stuff. I used to do it when I was playing but I'm hopeless and I know
02:06:48
I need to do it cuz it's going to count if I don't. >> Yeah. >> And I keep telling myself this and I've
02:06:53
been telling myself for four or five years but I just haven't >> haven't uh got over that bar. I have to
02:06:59
for the commamino. I can't walk for two or three weeks without actually preparing for it. So hopefully that's a
02:07:05
catalyst. >> What are you most afraid of? >> Um I you know at this stage of life would
02:07:14
be living life without Annie if if something were to happen to her and I think she probably feels the same. You
02:07:21
know I was actually just working through the rest of the life without her. we're so close
02:07:29
um uh that it would be it would be really tough. So, both of us, you know, don't
02:07:37
really want to think about this, but that it weighs on us a little bit. You know, and that's why we've got to stay
02:07:43
healthy and and also enjoy ourselves while while we really can. >> Surprise for great love, though, isn't
02:07:48
it? >> Well, she's been great. I mean, we >> you know, we've been together since
02:07:52
1979. We blind date. um and married for 42 nearly 43 years. So, you know, she's put up with a lot. Um
02:08:06
[snorts] so have I [laughter] just in case she's listening finally to one of these.
02:08:13
>> If you regret that comment, I I'll remove it. [laughter] >> And um so we've, you know, we worked out
02:08:19
a way of working with each other and it works. Um >> yeah, what is the key? What is the key
02:08:24
to that sort of longevity? Uh um I I tell you one and seriously one of the most important things that we learned
02:08:33
was the value of her been having a real purpose in life which was completely separate
02:08:40
>> to anything I was doing. I mean the problem is when you're doing the sort of
02:08:43
high-profile stuff I was doing for a while, it tends to consume life around you. And
02:08:52
um she had she had been a lawyer, had then had our four kids and had raised them and got them well advanced.
02:09:04
And um the risk at that time was that she'd feel like she'd always be an add-on to
02:09:11
me in cricket or whatever. >> And so she retrained as a teacher and she she then started teaching full-time.
02:09:19
And it was fantastic for her. It gave her her sense of real purpose. Um, it was great for both of us because I knew
02:09:29
she was happy doing that and so she I wasn't worried about her being worried
02:09:33
about what I was doing and the time it would take and so it really worked. Um, and so we've kept that going. She taught
02:09:41
for 17 years and still teaches a wee bit relieving. Um, and that's a great thing
02:09:47
because it means she's got her own life, her own lots of her own friends. Um, and
02:09:54
and I know that makes her happy and and that takes a bit of pressure off me, which means I can do some of the things
02:10:01
that I'm doing. And then but a whole lot of what we do is together. So, you know,
02:10:06
you got that lucky balance really. >> Yeah. Annie and the kids, how would how
02:10:11
would you like them to describe you when you're not in the room? Maybe three
02:10:14
words. >> [laughter] [gasps] >> How would you like them to describe you?
02:10:18
>> I like them. I I you know I think I don't know. Um what do you say? Um
02:10:26
uh really funny. Like my ability to tell jokes is amazing, but I it's only really
02:10:33
me that appreciates it. [laughter] Um so they roll their eyes and and uh >> well [snorts] puns dad jokes. Well, they
02:10:42
could be anything, but but you know, it's just um I think they should better
02:10:47
appreciate my sense of humor. That's that's something that would be great. M
02:10:53
>> um I think uh you know I think as long as all of them including Annie feel supported that's
02:11:04
important that >> that I am there and have been there when they've needed
02:11:10
>> me when they've needed that sort of connection you know that change when
02:11:15
your parents have you take it in turns sometimes it's Annie that has to be the
02:11:21
lead supporter and just need to be there supporting her to support them. And then the depending on
02:11:27
what it is, sometimes that switches around, you know, and >> and so that if they feel support and
02:11:34
love, then that's all of them and that's great. >> Um, but I feel it from them, so that's
02:11:40
I'm lucky. So, as long as they feel like it's a two-way thing. >> So, we've been going for 2 hours 10
02:11:46
minutes. when you when you revisit um aspects of your life like this, like in a greatest hits sort of format, I guess.
02:11:53
Um you know, the playing career, the early years, um yeah, the boardroom, the family stuff. Yeah. Are you proud of
02:12:00
yourself? >> Yeah. Uh I am. Uh uh but I've I've as I get older, I've
02:12:08
leared to keep things uh in perspective a lot more. So, in other words, you know, I can be
02:12:16
delighted about stuff, but also understand that's just, you know, and it it I guess what I'm trying to say is
02:12:24
that it it it the family stuff is much more important, >> getting that right, keeping it right
02:12:32
than the work stuff. But actually, it's the combination of the two that that
02:12:37
sort of makes me feel really good. But then Dom, you know, as you talked about a few minutes ago, I don't want to stop.
02:12:45
I mean, either on the home front or the or the work front. I just want to find things to do that are um uh contributing
02:12:56
to what's around me and and which I find really satisfying to do. >> So, that's really easy, you know, when
02:13:03
you're a grandparent because you your kids need help. You know, it's a hard life. I've they they look at us
02:13:11
now and say, "How the hell did you have four kids?" You know, they've got two
02:13:14
kids, two of them, and they just can't imagine having four kids, particularly
02:13:19
they were six and under at the time to start with. So, you see them rushed off their feet.
02:13:25
So, you know, you got to chip in and and then when you do, you got to make sure that the the grandkids enjoy it so that
02:13:31
it's not just a shove them in front of TV and that's it type thing. is um
02:13:36
you've actually got to help them enjoy the experience so they want to come back
02:13:39
and then it gets really good fun. But on the work front I want to keep using my brain. I want to keep helping
02:13:48
um organizations do a bit better. Um [snorts] that's why cycling so interesting is that that they were a
02:13:57
basket case for a while. They started to climb out before I got involved. Now I've got a chance to to help them go
02:14:06
much further than that and get back to proper stability. Um it'll take, you know, there's a couple of years left in
02:14:13
and getting that far, I think. But but you know, I'm really clear about that's
02:14:18
what my role is with them. >> I'm excited to see what you do through your 70s.
02:14:24
>> My sister just turned 74 today. She's number two out of five. Each of my siblings are still working,
02:14:33
you know, in their 70s. Now, I never would have guessed that 10 years ago, but it's an indication that life has
02:14:39
changed, that um, you know, people still want to keep doing stuff um to keep their lives interesting.
02:14:51
>> And so, yeah, but I don't want to think that far. I'm quite happy just to think
02:14:54
about the next few months. And um I'm also now a great believer that something
02:14:59
will come up. >> You know a lot of things I'm doing now I never would have guessed 5 years ago.
02:15:05
>> And I think you know as long as I do the things I'm doing now well then that
02:15:11
means that opportunities will come out of nowhere and if they look interesting then
02:15:17
>> you know who the hell >> do boxing never >> in 2011 would have thought that's where
02:15:23
I would be for a while. >> Yeah that was random. No one had that on their bingo card for you.
02:15:27
>> I didn't. They didn't. Um, but it happened >> and it just now becomes part of my
02:15:33
>> rich memory of, you know, >> the rich tapestry of life as they say.
02:15:37
>> Yeah. Is it nice reflecting like this? >> Yeah, it is. I mean, it is. And you've
02:15:41
you've done a lot of homework on this and um h Yeah, it is. It is. Well, I think from
02:15:51
my perspective, if someone um like you is going to give me a couple of hours of your time, it would be um the least I
02:15:56
can do is some thorough research. >> Thanks, [laughter] mate. No, it is good.
02:15:59
I mean, it's but I could probably do it to you, >> you know, if I've set myself. I could I
02:16:06
could sit there and research um for quite a long time. I'd have to talk to a few people, but you've done a
02:16:12
hell of a lot. >> Um and I don't see you stopping. you know, our conversation at the start here
02:16:18
about the podcast business you're now building up um with JJ. It's it's
02:16:24
that's exciting. That's something, you know, you wouldn't have thought about 5
02:16:28
years ago. And that's I think that's the important thing about life is you
02:16:31
actually are ready to be able to see, assess, and if you think it's right, take opportunities
02:16:38
>> that are in front of you, and they won't go away if you've still got that
02:16:41
mindset. It's only if you just close yourself down and and whatnot that things will start to disappear.
02:16:48
>> Oh, I see life like a like a rugby match. So 50 is sort of halfway. So we're in the second half now. Just in
02:16:53
the second half. >> Same as you. There's a long way to go. >> Um yeah, when I was 30, my my goal would
02:16:59
have probably been to retire by 50. >> Yeah, >> that was sort of an aspirational thing.
02:17:02
Now I couldn't think of anything worse. Like you need purpose, don't you?
02:17:05
>> Well, when I was 30, I thought I'd be a lawyer the rest of my life with my
02:17:08
brother. And I thought that was just pre-ord pre-ordained and then um got thrown up in the air.
02:17:15
Christo saying to me, why don't you come see of New Zealand cricket? >> Um
02:17:22
well, Martinstead, this has been a lot of fun. >> Me too. >> You are a great New Zealander and thank
02:17:27
you so much for coming on my podcast. >> Thanks Tom. Pleasure.