00:00:00
Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
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the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:05
there's a top performance in New
00:00:06
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:08
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:10
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:12
hole in one in to
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Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers
00:00:22
helping Kiwis maximize [music] their
00:00:23
Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here,
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Finn. Maximize. Generate. putting
00:00:29
performance first.
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>> Martin Snedden, welcome to my podcast.
00:00:38
>> Oh, thank you, Dom.
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>> I appreciate you being here.
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>> I love being here.
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>> Yeah. Really?
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>> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Yeah. Well, I can't um Okay,
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I'm going to drop any sort of facade of
00:00:47
[ __ ] here. Um you and I, we've had
00:00:49
had some meetings over the years, like
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just briefly sort of in passing. So, I
00:00:53
was um somehow I ended up as what you'd
00:00:56
call CEO of Dookco events with Dave
00:00:58
Higgins and Dean Lonigan.
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>> Why they ever called it CEO, I don't
00:01:02
know because I'm sitting in the same
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office as the two of them. There's no
00:01:06
chance I'm in charge.
00:01:08
>> And um so we were running all these
00:01:10
events and you were popping up in the
00:01:11
middle of it. So, we got I remember
00:01:13
sitting on a plane with you one day. We
00:01:15
were flying one place to another and you
00:01:17
told me a bit of your life story. Um
00:01:21
>> uh was good. Yeah. So, we've got a bit
00:01:22
of history.
00:01:23
>> Yeah. But I I've never told you this
00:01:24
until now, but um when I was I suppose
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seven or eight years old, that's when
00:01:28
you made the New Zealand cricket team.
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And um that was uh that was that was a
00:01:33
like a life-defining period for me. That
00:01:34
was probably when I was like a peak into
00:01:36
my cricket. So, you were one of my
00:01:37
heroes. You weren't my alltime hero.
00:01:39
That was Lance Ken. I had the Excalibur
00:01:41
bat.
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>> Um but I was a big Martin Sneden fan as
00:01:44
a kid.
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>> Yeah. No. Um a lot of ladies have told
00:01:48
me that since. So I also knew it at the
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time but wasn't the case. There was a
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great period in the 80s. I mean we might
00:01:53
talk about that but
00:01:54
>> yeah 100%
00:01:55
>> great history great great great memories
00:01:58
>> and and you mentioned um Dooko events
00:02:00
which is um in terms of your career a
00:02:03
very small part of it um but I spoke to
00:02:05
Dean Lonigan on Friday um and this is
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what he said. Martin is very considered
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and never made any rash decisions. He
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always thinks things through carefully
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and is just a really good bloke. when he
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came to Duke, we didn't need a third
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entrepreneur. We needed someone with
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great with a great management mind and
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that was Martin Sneeden.
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>> Yeah. I listen, I didn't know what I was
00:02:24
walking into. Um
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but from a distance, I had looked at
00:02:30
those two guys and I admired what they
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had done. They were risk takers, big
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risktakers. And Dino's right that they
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needed someone in the middle that was a
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little bit less of a total risk taker.
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And um but I had seen them do stuff that
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mainstream sport wouldn't do, wouldn't
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take the risk on, wouldn't have the
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drive, and that really interested me.
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And then stepping into the middle of it,
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wow, it was an I could only last for two
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years [laughter] with them, but
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[clears throat] it was it was a
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memorable two years full of great stuff
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and the odd bloody disaster, but but you
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know, most of it great stuff. And so I
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came away and I came away with an
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admiration for those two cuz I often
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hear them slagged off by others and I
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stop people when they're doing that and
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say, "No, no, you've got this wrong. You
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don't know these people.
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>> They're different than each other. You
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don't put them together and and sort of
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categorize them as the same. They're
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completely different than each other."
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[snorts]
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>> Um, but they're bloody hardworking.
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>> Well, David is when he's when he's on
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the game and Dino is the whole time. And
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once they decide to do something, they
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move heaven and earth to try and make it
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work. And sometimes they achieve stuff
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that all the big sports with all their
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money simply couldn't do. And that's,
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you know, that's why they've got my
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admiration. And um but it was an
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interesting ride. [laughter]
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>> Yeah, they they end up having quite an
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acronomous split, but um I've got great
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admiration for both of them, I think.
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Did you were you like a a handbrake?
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Like some of your ideas you wanted to
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shut them down?
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>> Dino's right. He's been a bit polite
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with that that explanation, but I was a
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wee bit of a handbrake. Not a not overly
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successful, mind you. Um Dino used to
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label me Mr. Negative. Um, [laughter]
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and it and it probably was because, you
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know, as they would come up with ideas,
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which they did every single day,
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uh, I would point out some of the
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obstacles and, um, they would look at me
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and think, "Oh, you you bloody negative
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bastard." And, uh, why don't you just
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let us get on with it? And most of the
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time, I had no choice. I had to. And
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then so what I'd do is try and work on
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those obstacles and those negatives just
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to mitigate them and and remove them if
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I could. Um
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but they achieved stuff, you know, they
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were ahead of their time. They still
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are, you know, you see when they split
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up and it was acrimonious and sad for
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me. um they sort of had to reinvent
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themselves and and so David, you know,
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has gone off and and I don't see either
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of them, no, for no reason other than
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their paths don't cross
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>> and um I see what they do and I think,
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well, good on you. You're still you're
00:05:22
still ahead of the game.
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>> Oh, 100%.
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>> So, that makes up a very small part of
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your sports admin career. So, there's a
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playing career which went for like a
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decade and then there's this been this
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incredible sports admin career. If you
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had to pick one, um, yeah, what are you
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more proud of?
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>> Uh, Rugby World Cup.
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>> Funny. Okay. The admin side,
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>> considering I've been in cricket,
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>> yeah,
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>> most of my life,
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>> uh, outside of family stuff, it's the
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Rugby World Cup. I think cuz
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>> it was so huge for New Zealand that had
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risk all over the top of it. I knew that
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if we stuffed up, the organization I was
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leading that was delivering it stuffed
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up, my career was probably not going to
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recover or take a long time to recover.
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So, you felt that pressure the whole
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time and the people that that were
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involved with us, the government, New
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Zealand rugby never let that pressure uh
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subside in the whole four years that we
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had to prepare for the thing. But the
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cooperation we got from right across the
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country, not just within sport, but
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right across the country uh was
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spectacular. We set it up, you know, we
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we did it well to get that support. Um
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but when people committed to it, they
00:06:36
came in guns and all and it was just
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fantastic to see the whole country
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activate and um you know and then it
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came off and we knew it was going to
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come off unless there was going to be
00:06:48
some unforeseen disaster. But it just
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was a a brilliant event. And then Dom it
00:06:56
was a great lesson in life because you
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know we had the fanf fair. It culminated
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at Eden Park around the corner with with
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the an unbelievable final and not in the
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way that we expected it to be, but it
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sort of got there, you know, they got
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there and the event was topped off by
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that. And then 3 days later, everyone's
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moved on. Everyone else has moved on and
00:07:22
those of us that had spent our lives
00:07:24
doing this were sort of sitting there in
00:07:26
our offices looking around thinking, "No
00:07:29
one cares about us anymore. You even
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wrote a book about it.
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>> Yeah, I did.
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>> Actually, I've got a whole whole card
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about the 2011 Rugby World Cup. So,
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we'll get into that. Um, just a couple
00:07:38
of quickfire ones. Um, yeah. What's the
00:07:40
most money you've ever heard of in one
00:07:41
negotiation and your various roles? You
00:07:43
>> Oh, it's it's um it's in cricket and
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it's to do with India. You know, in the
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world of cricket,
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Indian broadcast money is mindboggling.
00:07:53
And about 3 years ago, what what happens
00:07:57
is all the countries give their their
00:07:59
broadcasting rights into a pool in the
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middle and the International Cricket
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Council, the ICC then sells those
00:08:05
rights. And you know about six, seven
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years ago, they sold the rights to
00:08:11
Cricket World Cups, those sorts of
00:08:13
events for I think it was about 2
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billion US.
00:08:18
But then 3 years later, they sold the
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same rights for a 4-year period instead
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of an 8-year period for 3.6 billion. And
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you know, you're sitting in New Zealand
00:08:30
looking at this firstly thinking, Yahoo,
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we get a share of that. Um, but secondly
00:08:35
thinking, wow, that's just
00:08:37
extraordinary. Um, so yeah,
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>> that's absurd money. It is.
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>> I was um Yeah, cuz I was wondering when
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I when I when I wrote that question
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down, I was thinking, what would it be?
00:08:47
would have it be some sort of cricket
00:08:49
negotiation would have been one of the
00:08:50
early Parker fights you know I was
00:08:51
thinking maybe a million couple of
00:08:53
million I wasn't expecting billions
00:08:54
>> no and um so those in in Indian cricket
00:08:58
that's the money you're dealing with
00:09:00
which on the one hand is great for those
00:09:03
like New Zealand cricket that are
00:09:05
sharing in it on the other hand uh it
00:09:08
creates an enormous challenge to the
00:09:09
future of cricket
00:09:11
>> speaking of cricket um toughest bowler
00:09:12
you ever faced
00:09:16
uh was Macan and Waka Ununas, the two
00:09:20
Pakistani guys who uh were just listen I
00:09:25
wasn't much of a batsman. Every so often
00:09:27
I had a day but but really I was there
00:09:29
as a bowler. So the expectations of
00:09:31
everyone else were fairly low when I was
00:09:33
batting. So um there wasn't a huge
00:09:36
amount of pressure but apart from what I
00:09:38
put on myself but facing those two guys
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I just didn't have a clue. You know,
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it's sort of everyone else you sort of
00:09:45
try and work out and you, you know,
00:09:47
maybe do okay, maybe not, but usually
00:09:49
you feel like um you got a chance. Not
00:09:53
against these guys. Didn't have a chance
00:09:54
in hell.
00:09:56
>> What about the toughest batter you ever
00:09:58
bowled to?
00:10:00
>> One summer in Australia, David Gow got
00:10:02
going and he just slaughtered everyone,
00:10:06
including me. I think he picked on me.
00:10:08
Um and so [laughter]
00:10:11
and so um you know that was a bit
00:10:14
daunting. Um but it only lasted for a
00:10:16
summer. You know I played against him
00:10:18
plenty of times over the 10 years and
00:10:20
that was that was his summer and every
00:10:22
other time you know it was a little bit
00:10:24
more even. I mean he was far better than
00:10:25
I was but at least I had a chance
00:10:27
>> whereas that summer I was out of my
00:10:29
depth. [snorts]
00:10:31
>> Um we've only been going about 10
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minutes. I think this sets the platform
00:10:34
for what's going to be a great chat. Um
00:10:35
it's like a a tappers version of what
00:10:37
we're getting into like just an
00:10:39
incredible life and um top level sport
00:10:41
and uh top level business as well. First
00:10:44
of all, let's go all the way back. Um so
00:10:46
yeah, earliest memories.
00:10:47
>> Uh [clears throat] youngest of five, you
00:10:50
know, brought up around the corner in
00:10:53
Mount Eden. Um sport mad family, luckily
00:10:59
three older brothers and a sister. Um
00:11:02
and so you know playing in the backyard
00:11:04
as the youngest of that lot um that's
00:11:08
what I remember and then just sort of
00:11:12
gradually you know that emerging um into
00:11:16
into actually formal playing of cricket
00:11:18
and rugby and and uh tried to hand some
00:11:22
other sports but in those days you know
00:11:24
it was really only cricket and rugby
00:11:26
that was available. the school system
00:11:28
and whatnot, they actually actively
00:11:30
dissuaded people from playing football
00:11:32
or
00:11:33
>> rugby league or other stuff like that.
00:11:36
And so that's what it was. And uh I was
00:11:38
just lucky. I mean, I think the
00:11:40
beneficiary of being the youngest in a
00:11:42
in a group of um sports mad siblings
00:11:45
paid off.
00:11:47
>> Who I I there were times where I'd
00:11:49
pretend to be Martin Snedden or Lance
00:11:51
Kins or Richard Hadley. Um who did you
00:11:54
pretend to be? Well, I had a pretty
00:11:55
active imagination and and um quite
00:11:58
often as well as what I talked about
00:12:00
before, I'd be out in the backyard
00:12:02
playing um playing sport by myself with
00:12:06
pretending I was in test matches or this
00:12:08
or that. And um funnily enough,
00:12:10
Australian cricketers were the ones cuz
00:12:13
I'd
00:12:15
you know, shortwave radio can remember
00:12:17
listening to in those days listening to
00:12:19
cricket from Australia. It was always on
00:12:21
shortwave and
00:12:23
you know the sound of well probably
00:12:25
people don't remember the sound of that.
00:12:27
[laughter]
00:12:27
>> What's shortwave like am radio? No.
00:12:29
>> Oh yeah. Well this was actually
00:12:30
shortwave and um uh I just fell in love
00:12:34
with the picture in my mind of Ian
00:12:38
Chapel, Doug Walders, Lily came along um
00:12:43
those sort of people. And so that for me
00:12:46
that was the in inspiration around
00:12:48
cricket. it. I couldn't believe that
00:12:50
years later I was actually playing
00:12:51
against those guys out on the Sydney
00:12:53
cricket ground or Melbourne cricket
00:12:55
ground. I mean, gez.
00:12:56
>> But anyway, that's that's what sort of
00:12:58
fired it up. And then in the winter it
00:13:01
was all blacks, all blacks, all blacks,
00:13:03
you know, and I was a I learned to be a
00:13:05
great reader and my grandparents had all
00:13:08
these sports magazines and so I'd just
00:13:11
devour those. And dad had a whole lot of
00:13:14
cricket books that I would just devour.
00:13:16
It's actually how I learned English,
00:13:20
mathematics, geography, you know, was
00:13:23
those sorts of stuff cuz I really didn't
00:13:25
spend a lot of time in class
00:13:26
concentrating on them. And and so, you
00:13:31
know, I just had this
00:13:33
sport feeling infused into me
00:13:37
from my whole childhood. And I remember
00:13:40
one day driving along u mom was driving
00:13:42
me uh to a new school on the Northshore
00:13:46
and and I don't know why but I said to
00:13:48
her I'm going to play cricket for New
00:13:49
Zealand and she looked at me and sort of
00:13:52
nodded her head and then moved on.
00:13:54
Although our family has an amazing
00:13:58
history
00:13:59
>> you know my granddad captain New Zealand
00:14:02
at cricket. My uncle played for New
00:14:04
Zealand. My dad played for Oakland and
00:14:06
my great-grandfather was one of five BS
00:14:08
that purchased swamp land in Kingsland,
00:14:10
turned it into Eden Park. So, you know,
00:14:13
all of this has been in my background
00:14:15
and so there was no surprise really that
00:14:17
I end up right in the middle of the
00:14:19
sport for my whole life.
00:14:21
>> Yeah, I was going to I read that I was
00:14:22
going to ask you about that later. That
00:14:23
must have been is that something that
00:14:24
was in your mind like um the the
00:14:27
completion of the Rugby World Cup which
00:14:29
you were heavily involved with and we'll
00:14:30
get to that at Eden Park. Yeah.
00:14:32
>> Um, all blacks beat France by one point.
00:14:34
One point was it?
00:14:35
>> Yeah.
00:14:35
>> 87.
00:14:36
>> Was that something that played on your
00:14:38
that that came to mind that grandad?
00:14:40
That was
00:14:41
>> Yeah. I I was incredibly proud of of
00:14:44
that. It It is why when this debate
00:14:47
rages about Eden Park that I am 100%
00:14:51
plus pro Eden Park. Um,
00:14:55
and uh, it's just because so much of my
00:14:58
history, my family history has been tied
00:15:00
up in that ground and it of course it's
00:15:03
created so much of the great memories of
00:15:05
sport in New Zealand that I just can't
00:15:07
get away from that. And now I'm living
00:15:08
across the road down in Sandringham from
00:15:10
it. So I can't get away from it, you
00:15:12
know. But yeah, it did it and and
00:15:14
particularly in the Rugby World Cup
00:15:15
where
00:15:17
>> the capacity of the ground had been
00:15:18
raised to 60,000 and and you know we had
00:15:21
11 games there and and eight of them
00:15:23
were sold out at 60,000 which was just
00:15:26
an extraordinary
00:15:27
>> series of of events that yeah I you know
00:15:31
I felt really proud about.
00:15:33
>> So you're from a big cricket family also
00:15:35
a big law family as well. Um so
00:15:38
>> lawyers for Africa
00:15:39
>> it was um so it was always going to be
00:15:41
and you in your path to go to Deneden
00:15:44
and study law.
00:15:44
>> Well I had to go to needen in the end
00:15:46
I'll tell that story but um [laughter]
00:15:48
but
00:15:50
my grandfather was a lawyer and he
00:15:52
started up a legal firm in Oakland and
00:15:55
that legal firm is still going 105 years
00:15:58
later.
00:16:00
uh my grandfather, my father, my older
00:16:02
brother Dave, me for 20 years with Dave
00:16:05
and then I moved out into cricket.
00:16:07
Dave's still going so it's still going.
00:16:10
But my grandfather had two brothers who
00:16:11
were lawyers and the other two of them
00:16:13
went off and and
00:16:16
um created law firms themselves. So
00:16:19
three brothers had three law firms. Why?
00:16:21
I I just never thought to ask my dad
00:16:23
when he was alive how the hell that
00:16:24
could happen. But um [laughter] and then
00:16:29
yeah I I suppose I was going through
00:16:31
school sort of concentrating mainly on
00:16:34
rugby and cricket which weren't um
00:16:36
curriculum uh activities at that stage
00:16:39
and I had no idea what I was going to do
00:16:41
but I had loved reading books in dad's
00:16:45
library about courtroom scenes and so
00:16:48
you know that captured my imagination
00:16:49
and then because everyone else in the
00:16:51
family was lawyers I thought oh well
00:16:53
I'll try and be a lawyer. Well, I
00:16:54
started off at Oakland University and I
00:16:56
was a disaster and the reason I was a
00:16:59
disaster is really rugby, cricket,
00:17:01
drinking and I had a good great
00:17:02
girlfriend and uh so there was no chance
00:17:05
there and so after 2 years I I found I
00:17:08
couldn't make headway but I could if I
00:17:13
went down to Otago to Deneden University
00:17:16
I could get into law school there as I
00:17:17
couldn't up here. [gasps]
00:17:19
So I made the step. I didn't know anyone
00:17:21
down there, one mate. And um [snorts] I
00:17:24
went down there and that, you know, was
00:17:26
a a brilliant moment in our lives really
00:17:29
because
00:17:30
uh I ended up meeting my wife there. She
00:17:33
was doing a law degree as well and we
00:17:36
Yeah. Annie, we've had four kids and
00:17:38
we've sort of strong armed each of them
00:17:39
to go through Otago if they wanted any
00:17:43
financial assistance at all. And so
00:17:45
>> you're encouraging your kids to go to
00:17:47
Deno? [laughter]
00:17:49
because we had had such a great time
00:17:51
that uh it was sort of like
00:17:55
>> you've got to go guys. This is just
00:17:57
you've got to
00:17:58
>> what just like the right of passage.
00:17:59
>> Yeah. Well, it is. And of course, we our
00:18:01
best friends in our lives have all
00:18:04
emerged out of that period. And so all
00:18:07
of them have been around our kids as
00:18:08
well and had their own kids. And so, you
00:18:11
know, there was all these this myth
00:18:13
about Deneden. [snorts] motion, a lot of
00:18:15
it true and a lot of it myth that just
00:18:17
kept being fed to our kids. So there was
00:18:19
no choice when it came to it. You know,
00:18:21
they had to go.
00:18:22
>> What um [snorts] Yeah. What what what
00:18:25
were you like in the 70s? What was
00:18:26
Deneden like in the 70s? You you were um
00:18:28
you were like on the towards the end of
00:18:30
you would agree you were on the cusp of
00:18:31
like um playing for the country. You
00:18:34
kind of been much of a party boy, eh?
00:18:35
>> So you No, no, you're you're missing the
00:18:39
point here. [laughter] Um
00:18:41
we were
00:18:44
even at international level uh cricket
00:18:47
was pretty social. [laughter] Um you
00:18:50
know no one was there were no contracts.
00:18:53
You weren't working full-time playing
00:18:55
cricket. Um the the seasons were were
00:18:59
pretty short compared to what they are
00:19:00
now. Uh so I had I'd sort of started
00:19:04
emerging when I left school and then
00:19:06
went down to Deneden and and uh I think
00:19:10
it was in my my second year there. Um I
00:19:13
had a good run with the cricket and in
00:19:17
March that year they picked a New
00:19:18
Zealand team to tour Australia but it
00:19:20
wasn't leaving until October. So I had 6
00:19:23
months notice and um you know in the law
00:19:27
school this was quite a big thing. He's
00:19:28
a guy playing for New Zealand even
00:19:30
though I hadn't yet. Um so we celebrated
00:19:33
that winter um the selection and
00:19:37
[laughter] the whole winter.
00:19:38
>> The whole winter of course and and you
00:19:40
[snorts] know fitness levels weren't
00:19:41
what they are today. So but I was young
00:19:44
and and you know and uh so preparation
00:19:48
for the tour wasn't ideal. Um, but it
00:19:51
was uh a dream come true and and of
00:19:54
course October the start of the tour
00:19:55
coincided with exams
00:19:58
and so because I'd had notice I'd gone
00:20:00
to the lecturers and said, "Hey, I've
00:20:02
got a problem here. I'm meant to be in
00:20:03
Australia." Well, Otago Law School was
00:20:07
pretty sporting minded and so what they
00:20:09
did is they created separate exams for
00:20:11
me and I sat them in the two or three
00:20:14
days. you know, I had to do five exams
00:20:16
in about three days and then at least it
00:20:18
meant I could bug her off to Australia
00:20:20
and not have to think about it again.
00:20:23
Um, my wife to be was doing the same
00:20:27
exams and I thought they would create
00:20:30
different exams for me than they might
00:20:32
for the others. So, she got a bit of a
00:20:33
head start with understanding what might
00:20:35
be in those.
00:20:36
>> Um, but anyway, and then I, you know, go
00:20:39
to Australia and this is a dream come
00:20:41
true, 21 years old.
00:20:44
um playing on all these brilliant venues
00:20:48
that I dreamed about and playing against
00:20:51
the guys that that I'd grown up inspired
00:20:54
by
00:20:56
uh playing with Richard Headley
00:20:59
>> and Jeff How and a team that history
00:21:03
showed was a really good bunch of
00:21:07
players
00:21:08
>> and you know that was just a fantastic
00:21:10
way to start playing for New Zealand.
00:21:13
And then of course I had to come back
00:21:14
and go to university in the next year
00:21:16
and I was the richest student in Deneden
00:21:19
because
00:21:20
>> um we'd got given each get given 10,000
00:21:23
bucks no tax to um to tour which you
00:21:27
didn't have to spend any of it cuz you
00:21:29
got daily allowances that covered
00:21:30
everything. So I turned back up in
00:21:32
Deneden with 10,000 bucks in the
00:21:34
account. I'm the only p only student in
00:21:36
Deneden with any money in the bank
00:21:37
account. And so that started off another
00:21:40
winter of celebration of of what had
00:21:43
happened.
00:21:44
>> Yeah. 10,000 in 1981 80.
00:21:47
>> So So dad said to me, "Right, you got to
00:21:51
put it in in a scheme that at that stage
00:21:53
the government, I forget the name of the
00:21:56
scheme. And I should remember this cuz
00:21:57
it was a bloody be which was that they
00:22:00
would guarantee you an interest rate
00:22:03
which was equivalent to the rate of
00:22:05
inflation plus 2 or 3% and inflation was
00:22:09
going crazy.
00:22:10
>> So I was getting about 16 17 18% per
00:22:14
year on that 10,000. It it ultimately
00:22:16
became the deposit for my first home.
00:22:18
[snorts] Um so [laughter] so you know
00:22:22
having having had the joy of 3 months in
00:22:26
Australia doing what I just love um to
00:22:29
end up with some money in the bank. I
00:22:31
would have gone for nothing. I didn't
00:22:32
you didn't play for money.
00:22:34
>> Um
00:22:35
so
00:22:37
what was um what was that like with the
00:22:39
the day you first turned up to um New
00:22:41
Zealand camp or whatever? Are you
00:22:43
familiar with the term imposter
00:22:45
syndrome?
00:22:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it well. um
00:22:48
>> probably too young to think about it
00:22:50
that way. You know, when you're young,
00:22:52
you don't think
00:22:54
you're not good enough sort of that that
00:22:56
happens when you get a bit older and
00:22:58
that did happen to me a little bit later
00:22:59
on when things didn't go quite so well.
00:23:02
But, um it's just that that cocky, brash
00:23:05
youthful,
00:23:06
>> you know, I was smart enough to keep my
00:23:07
mouth largely shut, you know, cuz most
00:23:10
of these guys I didn't really know. I
00:23:13
hadn't I hadn't played against or with
00:23:16
guys enough by that stage to have but
00:23:18
there was two other young guys in the
00:23:20
team John Brace and Ian Smith. So the
00:23:22
three of us you know who were all just
00:23:24
picked out of junior sort of development
00:23:27
pathway type things we we became good
00:23:30
friends. So yeah and you know you just
00:23:33
gradually worked your way into the
00:23:35
friendships and whatnot that then lasted
00:23:37
for a long time.
00:23:38
>> What was Hadley like? Oh well people it
00:23:43
he's a little bit misunderstood Richard
00:23:46
um at that point in time this is 1980
00:23:51
the success of the New Zealand team
00:23:53
depended entirely on Richard Hadley you
00:23:55
know yeah other guys would could chip in
00:23:58
but if we were going to win it would be
00:24:01
because Richard made us win
00:24:03
>> he was our Michael Jordan
00:24:05
>> yeah that's exactly right and he felt
00:24:08
the pressure of that and though you know
00:24:10
and there was an enormous strain on him
00:24:13
to turn up every single day, put in an
00:24:16
enormous effort and succeed. And so he
00:24:20
he sort of was a little bit insula
00:24:24
um in that period of time. And he also
00:24:26
at that stage 1980 he was clearly
00:24:29
emerging as one of the really good
00:24:31
players
00:24:32
um of
00:24:35
test cricket but he hadn't at that stage
00:24:38
reached the pinnacle of what he became.
00:24:42
As the 1980s went on and he started to
00:24:46
just knock off all these achievements
00:24:47
gradually. He just relaxed and um and
00:24:53
you know opened up a lot more. Well,
00:24:55
I've known Richard ever since that time
00:24:57
and I've I've worked for him. I was his
00:24:59
boss for a while when he was at New
00:25:00
Zealand cricket. I I came to really
00:25:04
really like him and totally trust him
00:25:08
because he was so organized, so diligent
00:25:12
and had great integrity and so you could
00:25:16
you could totally rely on him to do
00:25:19
>> what he was doing. But, you know,
00:25:21
carrying that New Zealand team in the
00:25:23
early ' 80s, that that must have been an
00:25:25
enormous strain on him. And of course, I
00:25:27
didn't have a clue. I was just a student
00:25:29
um and playing, you know, as much for
00:25:32
fun as as as
00:25:34
for uh serious stuff. And so, he had to
00:25:38
carry a lot, but man, he was good.
00:25:41
>> And you came along at the beginning of
00:25:42
the Beige Brigade.
00:25:44
>> Yeah.
00:25:44
>> What what year did the um the made a
00:25:46
huge comeback with um you know, the ACC,
00:25:49
different things. So, so my first tour,
00:25:51
this one in Aussie was that that Packer
00:25:55
had Kerry Packer had sort of had a bit
00:25:58
of an explosion in Australia in the late
00:25:59
'7s.
00:26:01
So 1980, we come along, we tour
00:26:04
Australia, suddenly we're playing in
00:26:05
these uniforms that we had had no say
00:26:08
whatsoever in the design or color of.
00:26:12
[snorts] And so, you know, we were to
00:26:14
start with called the chocolate soldiers
00:26:16
and then and then the beige brigade sort
00:26:18
of emerged a little bit later. But also,
00:26:21
we were playing under lights for the
00:26:22
first time. We were playing with a white
00:26:24
ball with fielding restrictions. It was
00:26:26
all new.
00:26:30
And uh the first part of the tour we'd
00:26:32
played a test series and we'd got wiped
00:26:34
badly. Um so that was a bit of a
00:26:37
disaster. But as the one day series went
00:26:40
on, we started to play really well and
00:26:44
capture the imagination of people at
00:26:46
home because cuz cricket was starting to
00:26:48
be broadcast back and at home and the
00:26:50
one day games would come in at a viewer
00:26:52
friendly time cuz they're day night
00:26:54
games and so people got really
00:26:57
interested and of course then you know
00:26:58
it moved towards the underarm game
00:27:00
towards the end of the tour which it
00:27:01
just took off. It exploded from there
00:27:04
and that that explosion carried on for a
00:27:06
few years after.
00:27:08
>> Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that.
00:27:09
February 1, 1981. Um, a day that goes
00:27:13
down in New Zealand sporting history.
00:27:15
Um, when you think of that day, what
00:27:18
comes to mind?
00:27:19
>> Uh, the very first thing I think of,
00:27:21
because I'm thinking selfishly, is that
00:27:24
I took one of the greatest catches of
00:27:26
all time in the outfield. Um
00:27:30
uh it it actually was a really good
00:27:32
catch. I was fielding right on right out
00:27:35
on the boundary on the mid wicket
00:27:38
sideways to the wicket. Gre Chapel was
00:27:40
batting. Uh Aussie had batted first and
00:27:44
he smacked this ball out towards me and
00:27:46
I went running in at it. Now I' I'd
00:27:48
played a lot of rugby at fullback and I
00:27:51
was actually really good at catching the
00:27:53
ball and so I just kept going at it and
00:27:56
ended up diving at it and catching the
00:27:59
ball which um so if you see replays of
00:28:03
it or whatever YouTube you it actually
00:28:05
looks really good. It was fantastic.
00:28:07
>> I I I watched on YouTube did you um I
00:28:09
suppose the camera technology at the
00:28:10
time you just come from the right hand
00:28:12
side of the frame from out of nowhere.
00:28:14
>> I know they should have been following
00:28:15
me the whole way. I don't know where
00:28:16
they were. The empire were watching you,
00:28:18
right?
00:28:18
>> Well, that's that was the amazing. So,
00:28:20
so I dive forward, take this catch and
00:28:24
um uh nothing's happening. Um you know,
00:28:29
uh Mark Burgess had been feeling close
00:28:31
to me. He jumped up and Joy jumped over
00:28:32
the top of me, I think. Um
00:28:36
and then we sort of started to notice
00:28:37
that nothing was happening in the
00:28:39
middle. So wandered into the middle and
00:28:41
and I said to Greed Chapel, "I caught
00:28:43
it." And he didn't say a thing. he just
00:28:45
sort of turned around and walked away.
00:28:48
Now, to be fair to him, it's not the
00:28:50
batsman's job.
00:28:51
>> Um there I mean, you could say, "All
00:28:53
right, he should take the word of a a
00:28:56
fieldsman, but you know, it it's still
00:28:58
not his job." But the two umpires, cuz
00:29:02
Jeff H, the captain, was going at them
00:29:03
full full pelt at this stage. They said,
00:29:05
"Well, we weren't watching. We were
00:29:07
watching the batsman running between the
00:29:09
wickets." Pathetic. Anyway, so Greg was
00:29:13
given not out. He was on 58. He went on
00:29:15
and got 90. Funny thing is when he got
00:29:17
out I was bowling to him. Same thing
00:29:19
happened almost a replica and Bruce
00:29:21
Edget came flying in and took a
00:29:23
beautiful catch at mid wicket and Greg
00:29:25
walked off straight away. Didn't didn't
00:29:27
hang around. But then the game of course
00:29:29
then went later on and and I should say
00:29:32
this is at the MCG which is the the huge
00:29:36
bowl of a sports ground and it had a
00:29:38
world record crowd for one day
00:29:40
internationals there that day. I think
00:29:41
it was 70 something thousand and it was
00:29:45
hot as hell and and
00:29:48
um sort of it came down to the last over
00:29:50
and and
00:29:52
uh it was really close and then you know
00:29:55
the Aussie umpires pulled a couple of
00:29:57
LBWs out of the out of their bag just to
00:30:00
keep it even and then um [snorts]
00:30:03
uh you know the last ball Brian McKnney
00:30:06
went into face and and there was this
00:30:07
commotion happening in the middle and we
00:30:09
were sort of looking from the sideways
00:30:10
thinking what are they talking about and
00:30:12
then the penny dropped that Greg had
00:30:14
told his brother Trevor to bowl
00:30:15
underarm.
00:30:16
>> Yes. So Brian um who by the way double
00:30:18
all black so played cricket for New
00:30:20
Zealand with you played for the All
00:30:21
Blacks as well.
00:30:22
>> He was um facing the last ball of the
00:30:24
match and New Zealand needed six to
00:30:26
draw.
00:30:26
>> To draw not to win to draw or tie
00:30:30
>> and this is the largest playing arena in
00:30:33
the world of cricket. And I'm when I say
00:30:35
playing arena I mean the grass the
00:30:37
boundaries are bigger than anywhere
00:30:38
else. Brian is coming in to face his
00:30:41
first. Well, Brian was a good guy, but
00:30:43
there was no chance in Hill that he was
00:30:44
going to hit a six. Um, [snorts]
00:30:47
and uh, and so he comes in and then it
00:30:52
becomes obvious that that Greg has told
00:30:55
Trevor to bowl underarm. And Trevor's
00:30:58
looking at his brother saying, "I don't
00:31:00
want to do this." And Greg is [snorts]
00:31:02
saying, "I'm sorry, you have to do it."
00:31:04
And Rod Marsh is wicked keeper sort of
00:31:06
waggling his head saying, "No, no, don't
00:31:08
do it.
00:31:09
>> [snorts]
00:31:09
>> And anyway, it happened and um and you
00:31:15
[snorts] know the the of course there
00:31:17
was just everyone was stunned.
00:31:20
It was in the rules that you could do
00:31:23
this but no one ever it's one of those
00:31:24
rules you never you never know about.
00:31:27
you never would would think of doing it
00:31:30
and then it happened. And you know I I
00:31:34
often refer to it as the greatest day in
00:31:37
New Zealand cricket because it is the
00:31:39
day that New Zealanders
00:31:43
in huge numbers stood up and started
00:31:46
taking real notice of cricket. And from
00:31:49
that moment on, you know, the popularity
00:31:52
of cricket, it it actually, this is
00:31:55
February 1981, and remember the spring
00:31:57
box tour, that acrimonious tour a bit
00:31:59
later in the year. Cricket surpassed
00:32:01
rugby that year in terms of popularity
00:32:03
and also reputation. Um,
00:32:07
and so it it sort of we were looking at
00:32:10
each other, what the hell happened? And
00:32:14
um, anyway, it I I think to be honest,
00:32:20
we we realized we're on to a winner
00:32:23
pretty early, that this gave us the
00:32:25
moral high ground that 44 years later
00:32:30
we've still got with Australia.
00:32:32
And um and you know I still have
00:32:35
Australian mates who who refer to it or
00:32:39
you know if we're just getting to know
00:32:40
each other I just slip in. Oh I played
00:32:42
in the underarm game and suddenly
00:32:44
they're really embarrassed and
00:32:45
apologizing and [laughter]
00:32:48
I give speeches about it you know about
00:32:50
this. Um so so it was a actually a great
00:32:54
thing. The O poor old Aussie team um
00:32:56
they they didn't know what hit them. You
00:32:58
know, we went in normally what happens
00:32:59
is after a game in those days anyway,
00:33:02
the side that's batting second will go
00:33:04
in the dressing room of the side that
00:33:06
that has been fielding and you have a
00:33:07
few beers. Well, we decided some reason
00:33:10
we would go in there, which is pretty
00:33:12
pretty courageous of us, but we went in
00:33:14
there and it was a morg and they were
00:33:16
just they just didn't know what had hit
00:33:18
them.
00:33:18
>> So, we pretty quickly backed out of
00:33:21
that. Um, [snorts] but we got on really
00:33:23
well with those guys. Greg Greg I've
00:33:26
always find uh even when I run into him
00:33:29
now he's he's actually a really good guy
00:33:31
and um and so you know it wasn't one of
00:33:35
those things that called caused any
00:33:37
acrimony between the team but man did we
00:33:40
play it up when we got the chance and
00:33:42
every chance we could.
00:33:43
>> But were you we is part of you still a
00:33:46
bit um bitter with Greg because you
00:33:48
caught him out and uh you could have won
00:33:50
um a Toyota for catch of the match.
00:33:52
>> Oh that's right. I forgot about that.
00:33:53
You're right.
00:33:54
>> He cost you he cost you a bloody car.
00:33:56
>> A brand new Toyota was was on offer for
00:33:59
the best catch of the summer.
00:34:01
>> I mean the the commentary at the time
00:34:03
Richie Beno says, "What a catch. That's
00:34:04
one of the best catches I've ever seen
00:34:06
in my life." [gasps]
00:34:07
>> Well, you got to respect Richie.
00:34:09
>> Um yeah, [laughter] you know, but of
00:34:12
course I would have only got a hub hub
00:34:14
cap or something like that once we'
00:34:15
shared it around the team. Um
00:34:17
>> Oh, is that what happened? Oh, so okay.
00:34:19
So you won it as an individual, then it
00:34:20
went into like a team. That sort of was
00:34:22
the done deal. And of course, usually
00:34:25
Richard was winning the cars time after
00:34:26
time, and so he was he was having to
00:34:28
shove them all, which he got a bit sick
00:34:30
of at times. Um, but
00:34:34
listen, it didn't for a second cause any
00:34:37
acrimony. It, as I say, it just gave us
00:34:39
the moral high ground forever
00:34:42
>> with Australia. And isn't it funny that
00:34:44
the guy that faced it, Brian McKitney,
00:34:47
only a few months beforehand had been
00:34:49
playing for the All Blacks at Carter
00:34:50
Farms Park and Andy Hayden had dived out
00:34:54
of the line out in a predetermined ploy
00:34:57
and we'd got a penalty and and Brian had
00:35:00
kicked the winning goal. So to be
00:35:01
involved in two of the most
00:35:03
controversial episodes in New Zealand
00:35:05
sport history,
00:35:06
>> like the Forest Gump of New Zealand
00:35:07
sport, just involved in all these
00:35:09
pivotal moments, it's great. Were were
00:35:11
you were you guys sort of aware? So you
00:35:13
go back into the change room after the
00:35:14
game. Are you like are you sort of
00:35:16
bewildered or are you laughing about it?
00:35:18
Do you you realize it is at the time?
00:35:20
>> We're not laughing that quickly. We
00:35:21
we're we're a bit bewildered.
00:35:24
Um
00:35:26
but remembering it, you know, huge
00:35:28
ground and the chances of Brian hitting
00:35:30
a six would were non-existent and even
00:35:32
if he had of it would have been a draw
00:35:34
or tie.
00:35:35
So, you know, it wasn't it just we were
00:35:39
just flumxed by why they would do it.
00:35:41
Greg had had a really difficult summer.
00:35:44
You know, he'd been struggling to score
00:35:45
runs. The the demands on him as captain
00:35:49
Australia were ridiculous. The
00:35:51
Australian cricket board had ass flying
00:35:53
all over Australia. No cohesion in the
00:35:55
in the way the the calendar of games was
00:35:59
worked out. So, he was utterly and
00:36:01
completely burnt out by the time. and
00:36:03
that affected his his decision-m on the
00:36:06
day. [snorts]
00:36:06
>> The following year they toured New
00:36:08
Zealand. We had this brilliant occasion
00:36:10
at Eden Park which was the biggest crowd
00:36:11
in cricket history and Greg came out to
00:36:14
bat and the crowd booed him out into the
00:36:18
middle. Um a a a wag jumped off the
00:36:21
terraces cuz there's no security as to
00:36:24
what you bought in the games in those
00:36:25
days. And he had a bowling ball and he
00:36:27
got out and he bowled the ball along the
00:36:28
ground. It was brilliant. And Jeremy Con
00:36:30
picked it. Jeremy was a laugh. Anyway,
00:36:33
[snorts] um Greg went on and scored 100
00:36:35
and he got a standing ovation coming off
00:36:37
the field. He had just published a book
00:36:41
uh about the previous summer and there
00:36:43
was a chapter on my catch and there was
00:36:44
a chapter on on uh the underarm. I'd
00:36:47
bought the book and I took it into the
00:36:49
Aussie director room afterwards and I
00:36:50
got him to sign it for [laughter]
00:36:54
so um good memories.
00:36:56
>> Jeez, you mentioned Eden Park again.
00:36:58
Yeah, there's this amazing given the
00:37:00
backstory with your great granddad. It's
00:37:02
been like this amazing backdrop to your
00:37:04
life.
00:37:04
>> Oh, totally. You know, it it so my
00:37:07
granddad and then my uncle Colum, he had
00:37:09
this amazing thing where he was a rugby
00:37:12
and cricket commentator and in those
00:37:14
days they used to play, you know, club
00:37:16
rugby every Saturday at Eden Park, then
00:37:18
represented rugby, then the All Blacks
00:37:21
and um and in cricket, you know, when
00:37:24
Oakland was playing there. Well, Colin
00:37:25
was the commentator for both sports
00:37:28
every Saturday for 40 years.
00:37:31
>> He only gave up in the end because he
00:37:33
felt uncomfortable that I was out there
00:37:35
playing for New Zealand. So, he he
00:37:37
retired. Um, so that that connection
00:37:40
with the ground is just enormous.
00:37:42
>> Um, yeah.
00:37:44
>> What's your proudest moment as a New
00:37:45
Zealand cricketer?
00:37:48
>> Oh, [gasps]
00:37:49
two really. one was I' I'd had, you
00:37:52
know, despite the fact I'd had a good
00:37:54
first tour, I struggled a wee bit on and
00:37:56
off um with my career and then and I was
00:38:00
out of the team a bit and then I got
00:38:02
brought back in when we were playing the
00:38:04
West Indies and the West Indies, you
00:38:06
know, were at their height of their fame
00:38:09
>> and we're playing a test in Christ
00:38:11
Church and I was a bit worried because I
00:38:13
was on a comeback and, you know, playing
00:38:15
against the best one of the best teams
00:38:16
in history
00:38:18
and um I started did okay and so I felt
00:38:22
I relaxed a bit more into it but then on
00:38:24
the last day we had to bowl the West
00:38:26
Indies out to have a chance of winning
00:38:28
and um Hadley had started bowling at the
00:38:32
start of the day and Viv Richards was
00:38:34
batting and he just smashed him
00:38:35
everywhere and then Con who was captain
00:38:37
said to me what your turn thought anyway
00:38:42
um I started all right and um I had him
00:38:46
in a little bit of difficulty and then
00:38:49
uh I bowled the ball and he slashed it
00:38:50
and he nicked it 3D and Smith at wick
00:38:52
keeper and you know it was one of the
00:38:54
the turning points of my life was to
00:38:57
actually cuz I'd been up against it I'd
00:38:59
been struggling
00:39:02
to get him out at a time that mattered
00:39:04
and then I went on I got five wickets
00:39:06
that day and we won the test match and
00:39:08
wow
00:39:08
>> uh but then probably two years later uh
00:39:11
a test match in Perth which is is
00:39:14
remembered as the Mark Greatbatch test
00:39:16
uh because he he basically against
00:39:20
Australia. He saved the match for New
00:39:22
Zealand by just batting and batting and
00:39:25
batting for almost two days. And
00:39:30
it was quite a young team because there
00:39:32
were a few injuries and so I had to lead
00:39:33
the bowling attack. And Aussie got 500,
00:39:36
but I actually bowled quite well. And
00:39:38
then um in the second innings I came out
00:39:40
to bat with Mark just straight after
00:39:43
lunch. So we were about seven down I
00:39:46
think. So the game was going to be over
00:39:48
in half an hour or an hour. Well, I
00:39:51
managed to bat the rest of the day with
00:39:52
him and we saved the test match. And you
00:39:56
know, it was just one of those things
00:39:58
where I thought, "Wow,
00:40:00
that's that's just a memory of
00:40:05
that just won't ever go away. just the
00:40:07
satisfaction
00:40:09
of working with them to to stop them in
00:40:13
their tracks and enable us to hold on
00:40:17
and draw the game was just you know it
00:40:19
wasn't even a win it was a draw but it
00:40:21
felt like a win at the end of it um
00:40:23
because [snorts] we'd pulled a draw out
00:40:25
of the hat really and so you know those
00:40:27
sort of things um you know in my mind
00:40:30
>> that's so cool yeah do you ever catch up
00:40:33
with Mark Greatbatch and
00:40:34
>> yeah yeah um you know He he [snorts]
00:40:37
uh yeah we sort of because I've been
00:40:40
involved in cricket administration I do
00:40:41
run into guys um
00:40:45
uh not all the time but but every so
00:40:48
often you know so
00:40:49
>> is that something you bring up or is it
00:40:50
just unspoken like this unspoken
00:40:52
>> it's sort of unspoken you know I think
00:40:53
it created a bond between us because we
00:40:57
were completely different types of
00:40:59
individuals and at times had rubbed up
00:41:01
against each other a little bit the
00:41:02
wrong way. Um, but you know when you've
00:41:05
done something like that with someone
00:41:07
that you sort of do have that bond that
00:41:09
you don't need to talk about it. You
00:41:11
just know that was that was a good thing
00:41:13
to do together.
00:41:14
>> I can't imagine you rubbing anyone up
00:41:16
the wrong way.
00:41:17
>> Uh, listen, I I did have a bit of a
00:41:19
mouth on me at times when um, uh, in the
00:41:24
second half of my career. You know, I
00:41:25
sometimes get surprised when I run into
00:41:27
some younger guys who I played with who
00:41:29
who say to me, "Well, you're a bit of a
00:41:30
handful there." [laughter] um towards
00:41:32
the end um you know tired and old and
00:41:35
grumpy but um I don't believe them but
00:41:38
there's enough in it [laughter] saying
00:41:39
it that it must be true
00:41:40
>> evidence
00:41:42
>> so uh so yeah every so often
00:41:45
>> any any um memorabilia what have you got
00:41:47
at home you going balls or wickets
00:41:49
>> I did have but then what happens is you
00:41:52
start giving it away you know people say
00:41:53
oh we got auction here yeah
00:41:55
>> and you know it's like with like the
00:41:57
duko stuff but most of it had gone by
00:41:59
then you did and the the beige brigade
00:42:02
uniform sort of I'd given it all away
00:42:05
before it actually, you know, the the
00:42:07
guys made it Yeah. into
00:42:09
>> what it is now. Um, so I don't care. You
00:42:13
know, I've got the memories. That's all
00:42:15
that matters. I listen when co happened,
00:42:19
uh, they had no sport content because
00:42:22
there was no live sport around TV. So,
00:42:24
Sport Sky Sky Sport purchased from
00:42:27
Channel 9 in Australia the highlights of
00:42:29
the old games. Well, it's the first time
00:42:33
I'd seen most of these because when we
00:42:34
were playing, we were playing and so you
00:42:37
weren't, you know, on a couch watching
00:42:39
TV and then each night after a game,
00:42:42
they'd half an hour highlights, usually
00:42:44
at about 11 p.m. Well, by 11:00 p.m.
00:42:47
you'd had a skin full. You weren't
00:42:48
really, and all you're watching anyway
00:42:49
is either been hit for four or six or
00:42:51
get the odd wicket. Um, so it was
00:42:54
actually quite nice in co to to um to
00:42:58
actually have a chance to look at a
00:42:59
whole lot of games. You know, I'd fast
00:43:01
forward to try and remember, did I bowl
00:43:03
right that day or not? And if I didn't,
00:43:05
I wouldn't watch it. I still can't, but
00:43:07
if I did, I'd hang in there. Then I'd
00:43:09
say to Annie or the kids, "Come and
00:43:10
watch. Come and watch. You know, this is
00:43:12
your chance." Well, they weren't in the
00:43:13
slightest bit interested, [laughter]
00:43:17
>> but it was quite nice seeing it.
00:43:19
>> And how did retirement look? Did you Did
00:43:20
you end on your own terms?
00:43:21
>> Yeah, I did. And that that was a good
00:43:24
thing to do. Um because one of the real
00:43:29
issues and it still exists today, maybe
00:43:32
even more because of the professional
00:43:33
game, is that if a player
00:43:38
effectively disappears out of it cuz
00:43:41
they're dropped,
00:43:43
then somehow they carry that and
00:43:45
sometimes they carry it for their lives.
00:43:48
And it I've seen it cause lots of damage
00:43:50
to people where the very team or the
00:43:54
organization they were working with um
00:43:56
who had given them these opportunities
00:43:58
throughout their career, they'd end up
00:44:01
hating
00:44:02
>> and it's awful to watch. Well, we'd sort
00:44:05
of got to 1990, so I'd had, you know, 10
00:44:07
years on and off of playing. And I was
00:44:10
lucky because in those days you weren't
00:44:12
full-time professionals. So, I'd got a
00:44:13
law degree and I was working with my
00:44:15
brother and so I knew what my next step
00:44:18
in life was going to be. And then Annie
00:44:20
and I started having kids and
00:44:24
uh by the time we had a second kid um it
00:44:27
had become pretty obvious to me that it
00:44:29
wasn't on for me to disappear on two
00:44:31
month or 3 month tours and leave it to
00:44:33
her to look after these things. So, in
00:44:36
1990 I just sort of decided right that's
00:44:39
enough. Got to stop. So, I made the
00:44:41
decision. I don't think I even talked it
00:44:43
over with her. I just sort of said,
00:44:44
"Nah, that's it. I've done it. I've
00:44:46
enjoyed it. Time to move on with life."
00:44:49
And that was really good because it
00:44:50
actually meant that I went into what was
00:44:52
after that with a pretty excited,
00:44:56
positive frame of mind instead of it
00:44:58
being I'm only doing this cuz I've been
00:45:00
kicked out sort of thing.
00:45:02
>> You always had something to something to
00:45:04
do. It's not like you finished and it's
00:45:05
like what am I going to do now? You
00:45:06
know, I might have to train to do real
00:45:08
estate or
00:45:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a real problem
00:45:09
for professional sport. Yeah.
00:45:11
>> Is that uh you know athletes give so
00:45:15
much and they're required to give so
00:45:16
much to it now that they don't think
00:45:19
about
00:45:20
>> the future and I don't blame them
00:45:23
>> and then the future becomes the now and
00:45:26
then a lot of them just aren't ready.
00:45:28
>> Now rugby and cricket
00:45:30
>> with the growth of player associations
00:45:32
have actually developed really good uh
00:45:35
player development whole of person
00:45:37
development programs for players. So
00:45:40
there is much more attention paid
00:45:43
uh to what happens next and players are
00:45:45
getting help. But of course it it's for
00:45:48
most players they're not going to
00:45:50
concentrate on that until it's obvious
00:45:51
they're going to finish.
00:45:53
>> And so you know it takes a while for
00:45:54
them to tune into that. But it does help
00:45:56
a hell of a lot. But other sports like
00:45:58
I'm in cycling now
00:46:00
>> and I already see it. You know they go
00:46:02
out of it and that's it. Um and they
00:46:05
don't know you know they're looking
00:46:06
around thinking what do I do now? And
00:46:09
people's memories are short. You know,
00:46:10
you might be a hero while you're on the
00:46:12
track or on the on the field, but once
00:46:15
you're finished, you're finished
00:46:17
>> and people move on. And it's quite a
00:46:20
it's quite a reality. You you will have
00:46:23
struck this your yourself in your career
00:46:25
a few times where, you know, you come to
00:46:27
the end of something
00:46:29
and you realize that people just move on
00:46:33
>> and they don't think about you. It's not
00:46:34
a nasty thing or anything like that.
00:46:36
It's just that's the way it is.
00:46:38
And you sometimes, and this is a a real
00:46:42
risk in sport, is that a player's
00:46:44
selfidentity is wrapped up in what they
00:46:46
are on the field. And and in cricket
00:46:49
now, we spend a lot of time trying to
00:46:51
get players to understand they are
00:46:54
people. That's their identity, their
00:46:57
people identity. [snorts] And they
00:46:58
happen to play cricket, which is
00:47:00
important, but it's not everything. But
00:47:03
of course, you know, it's hard for for
00:47:05
people that are in the middle of it the
00:47:06
whole time to accept. But it is true. If
00:47:09
you can't see your value as a person as
00:47:13
opposed to what the public sees, then
00:47:16
you've got a problem you've got to sort
00:47:17
out. [sighs]
00:47:19
>> Yeah. I I mean it's a far smaller scale
00:47:21
than being like um representing your
00:47:23
country in sport or winning a gold medal
00:47:25
but um I did a breakfast radio show on
00:47:26
one radio station called the edge for 20
00:47:28
years and you sort of you do become sort
00:47:30
of defined by by this public role
00:47:33
>> and and you you you know you might try
00:47:35
and play it down but you're actually
00:47:36
were far more in the public eye
00:47:38
consistently
00:47:39
>> than I would have been. Um, and every
00:47:42
morning you, you know, alarm goes off
00:47:44
and you have to gear yourself up to
00:47:47
perform and so you you you go at it. Um,
00:47:51
and then it's really hard when you don't
00:47:53
have the opportunity to perform
00:47:55
>> cuz someone else stops it.
00:47:57
>> Um, or you've you've had enough. You
00:47:59
you're burned out. Burnout's a a very
00:48:02
real thing that people should take a lot
00:48:04
more notice of.
00:48:05
>> Um, what did you what did you miss the
00:48:07
most and the least when you finished up
00:48:09
with cricket?
00:48:11
Uh,
00:48:13
I loved I loved playing on the big
00:48:17
grounds around the world. You know, I
00:48:19
almost I think deliberately thought,
00:48:21
right, a tour to England's going to be
00:48:23
my last tour and then to play a test at
00:48:25
Lords. Um, you know, the previous tour
00:48:27
I'd been on, I was 12th man, so I didn't
00:48:29
get to play in the test there. So to
00:48:31
play the test at Lords and and play on
00:48:34
the other great grounds over there, um,
00:48:38
that was a good thing. Um I loved the
00:48:41
rhythm of touring in the old days. These
00:48:43
days where you play only international
00:48:45
matches and it's really you know
00:48:48
pressure cooker the whole way. Whereas a
00:48:50
tour to England in 1990 is that we would
00:48:53
play three test matches but we would
00:48:55
have a lot of time just touring around
00:48:57
England playing against county teams. So
00:49:00
it was pretty low pressure environment
00:49:01
and just you know having fun doing that
00:49:03
and having a beer each night with people
00:49:05
and and stuff was all good fun. So I I
00:49:08
sort of missed that. But
00:49:13
I I
00:49:15
the imposition on your family life,
00:49:19
>> the end of you know the
00:49:21
>> sacrifice.
00:49:21
>> Yeah. Well, I didn't really see it as a
00:49:23
sacrifice for myself, but I started to
00:49:26
see towards the end the sacrifice that
00:49:28
Annie was making letting me go on these
00:49:30
tours. I mean, she'd come over for bits
00:49:32
and pieces of some of them and have a
00:49:34
good time, but but that, you know, when
00:49:36
the kids were there, that that just was
00:49:39
really difficult. So, uh, I actually
00:49:43
loved sort of being in one place for a
00:49:46
decent length of time, which I hadn't
00:49:48
been for 10 years.
00:49:49
>> So, that was good. Um,
00:49:52
>> did you [snorts] become a smoker at all?
00:49:54
Heavy cigarette sponsorship at the time.
00:49:56
Rothman's B&H. [laughter]
00:49:58
>> So, Rothman's B&H. Yeah. I remember
00:49:59
seeing a game um at the Ferturban Oval
00:50:01
in Palmer North. Um Ian Botham was
00:50:03
playing. There was some exhibition match
00:50:05
against Central Districts I think. Um
00:50:07
and as soon as he got out he was in his
00:50:08
caravan just
00:50:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, he he smoked a lot
00:50:11
of things. Um [laughter]
00:50:14
I think I did my serious smoking at
00:50:16
about 11. Um but I [snorts] never I
00:50:19
never smoked. Yeah.
00:50:20
>> You know, I just it never interested me.
00:50:22
But of course, when you were sponsored
00:50:24
by those guys, they would give you
00:50:25
cartons and cartons of cigarettes. So
00:50:27
the guys in the team that did smoke, and
00:50:29
there were quite a few, would line up
00:50:31
and say, "Hey, just give me your cart."
00:50:32
[laughter]
00:50:35
>> That's amazing. It seems crazy now,
00:50:37
doesn't it?
00:50:38
>> And that's um You're right. And the
00:50:40
alcohol thing was also, you know, like
00:50:43
we went to the pub every single night
00:50:46
that we're on tour. That's another
00:50:48
reason I like touring. And the bowlers
00:50:52
had something in common. So the bowlers
00:50:54
would stick together. It's a bit like
00:50:56
you go to a party and the males are on
00:50:57
one side and the females are on the
00:50:59
other side. Well, it was the same on
00:51:01
cricket tours. The bowlers would stay
00:51:02
together and the batsmen if they turned
00:51:04
up were over there and and the bowlers
00:51:06
had a real because we were the blue
00:51:08
collar hardworking lot. the batsmen were
00:51:10
just flashy white collar um show ponies
00:51:14
and um and so there was a hell of a
00:51:17
social time and I I tell my son who's
00:51:19
playing cricket for Wellington I said
00:51:21
you know we would have a team meeting
00:51:23
the night before a test match or a
00:51:25
one-day international
00:51:27
and in those days you had bugger support
00:51:30
staff with you on tour and so the
00:51:32
players would have
00:51:34
uh jobs they had to do and and you know
00:51:37
someone would be in charge of of the
00:51:39
alcohol for the team thing. So, their
00:51:41
job was to get the concurge to um bring
00:51:46
up enough ice to fill the bath in the
00:51:48
room that you were having the team
00:51:49
meeting in. And then all the cans of
00:51:51
beer would have to be in there 2 or 3
00:51:53
hours beforehand. So, they're ice cold
00:51:55
when you were sitting down having a
00:51:56
serious meeting about how you were going
00:51:58
to attack the opposition the next day.
00:52:00
And you know when you compare that and
00:52:02
that happened my whole 10 10 years to
00:52:05
nowadays where my son who who plays
00:52:07
domestic cricket for Wellington almost
00:52:10
doesn't have a single drink of alcohol
00:52:12
between October and and April. It's just
00:52:16
night and day. I'd rather have my time.
00:52:20
>> It was a glorious time to be
00:52:22
representing your country, wasn't it?
00:52:23
And um were there transferable skills
00:52:26
that you got from playing professional
00:52:27
sport that you carried on to the board?
00:52:28
>> Totally. Totally. And that was that was
00:52:31
the thing that really not not I I'll
00:52:34
more to being a lawyer, an effective
00:52:36
lawyer. So, you know, I'd been tinkering
00:52:39
around being a lawyer for the 1980s and
00:52:41
then once I retired, I was into it big
00:52:44
time with my brother and became a
00:52:46
partner with him. And do you know what
00:52:49
it was? It was I think I
00:52:53
learned a whole lot when I was playing
00:52:54
cricket about handling pressure and the
00:52:57
importance of preparation.
00:53:00
But but what I realized is I'd never
00:53:02
done that properly when I was playing.
00:53:05
But I'd seen Richard Hadley do it. I'd
00:53:07
seen Martin Crow do it. I'd seen John
00:53:09
Wright do it.
00:53:12
And so I knew right from the start of my
00:53:15
post cricket career that's what I had to
00:53:17
do to succeed in the law. And that's so
00:53:19
that's what I did. And it it was
00:53:20
incredible. And and so the you know, you
00:53:24
channeled pressure in the right way from
00:53:26
there. And then, you know, that did
00:53:28
carry into the sports administration
00:53:30
stuff after that as well.
00:53:31
>> Yeah. You mentioned Martin Crow. What
00:53:33
what made him so good? Did Did you play
00:53:35
with him at the peak of his career or
00:53:36
did he sort of peak after you?
00:53:38
>> Oh, I think probably at the peak.
00:53:40
>> Yeah.
00:53:40
>> Um, he was a bit complex, Marty. Um, you
00:53:44
know, had a lot of pressure coming on
00:53:45
him. A bit like Richard,
00:53:47
>> like tortured geniuses.
00:53:48
>> Yeah. There was a book called that
00:53:50
Joseph Romanus wrote was called Tortured
00:53:52
Genius. And he was he he he struggled to
00:53:56
just relax and enjoy life enough. Um he
00:54:00
struggled to enjoy what he was achieving
00:54:03
enough I think. And so I saw him play
00:54:07
unbelievable cricket against you know I
00:54:09
talked about the West Indies before you
00:54:12
know one of the best teams with with the
00:54:14
most fearsome bowling attack and then
00:54:16
switched to playing against Pakistan
00:54:18
with Wazi Marramakar Ununas and some
00:54:20
really good spinners and he was just he
00:54:23
had prepared so well he'd got himself
00:54:25
mentally right and he would be
00:54:28
unbelievably outstanding against them.
00:54:31
So I I saw him at his peak. Um
00:54:35
but you know it it didn't go smoothly
00:54:36
for him. I think what happened is during
00:54:38
the 80s he had a whole lot of
00:54:40
experienced guys around him and then we
00:54:42
all sort of
00:54:44
a lot of us retired in 1990 and and he
00:54:46
was left
00:54:48
a little bit without that protection you
00:54:51
know and it sort of got to him a little
00:54:53
bit and and things didn't work out quite
00:54:54
as well during the 1990s for him apart
00:54:57
from the 92 World Cup in New Zealand
00:55:00
where he was just sublime
00:55:03
um fantastic
00:55:06
you had a front row seat with these
00:55:07
guys, Hadley Crow.
00:55:10
>> It was incredible time to be part of the
00:55:11
New Zealand cricket scene.
00:55:13
>> And and Lance Ken, you mentioned before,
00:55:16
you know.
00:55:16
>> I loved Lance
00:55:17
>> and me too cuz what he did even though,
00:55:22
you know, I got on the team and I'm a
00:55:23
bowler and and I'm a competitor if you
00:55:26
like for a place in the test team with
00:55:28
with him. And yet he took me under my w
00:55:32
under his wing right from the start and
00:55:35
looked after me
00:55:37
um
00:55:39
uh for those first few years, you know,
00:55:40
and was was a really good um yeah really
00:55:45
good person to anchor me uh with things.
00:55:48
He understood how hard it was at that
00:55:50
level. You know, there were a lot of us
00:55:52
who didn't have necessarily the talent
00:55:56
to be stars at international cricket. So
00:55:59
we were spending a lot of time trying to
00:56:01
hang on in there and do okay. And there
00:56:04
was an art to that and New Zealand was
00:56:06
really good at it is that we had a whole
00:56:08
lot of guys who could do okay. Um
00:56:14
and and you know and Lance was was one
00:56:18
of them. And then of course he had a
00:56:19
couple of years where he he just had the
00:56:20
fun of smashing all those sixes. And
00:56:23
>> he was such a great character.
00:56:25
Why did the um the shoulderless bat not
00:56:27
catch on? [laughter]
00:56:29
>> Oh, I I did for a while. Yeah, I did for
00:56:32
a while. Um Excalibur.
00:56:34
>> Yeah, Excalibur. I had one. Yeah, I
00:56:36
don't remember scoring one boundary with
00:56:38
it myself, but
00:56:39
>> but in those days too, don't you forget
00:56:41
now where the the live broadcast
00:56:44
photography means you get right in
00:56:47
>> at anything you want to. It's amazing.
00:56:49
in those days. Yeah. You see it, but
00:56:51
from the distance, so it wasn't quite as
00:56:52
prominent as as it would be now.
00:56:54
>> Yeah. Hey, I've got some um silly
00:56:56
quickfire team questions here and then
00:56:58
we can move on to the uh the the the
00:57:00
business side of your career, which has
00:57:02
been longer than the cricket.
00:57:03
>> It is.
00:57:04
>> Um who was the funniest guy in the
00:57:06
dressing room?
00:57:07
>> Oh, Con brilliant sense of humor. Uh
00:57:10
such a clever person with words. His
00:57:12
training had been drama and you know, so
00:57:15
he brought all these dramatic skills to
00:57:17
everything. Plus he played the he he and
00:57:19
Wrighty played the guitar. So we you
00:57:22
know we would on this first tour this is
00:57:23
how different it is now. We would go to
00:57:25
all these country towns that Australian
00:57:27
cricket had sent us to and in in a
00:57:29
function we'd get up on stage and sing
00:57:31
poceric Ariana or you know it was sort
00:57:35
of but you know he had Jerry
00:57:37
unbelievably funny.
00:57:38
>> Yeah. Who was the most serious on the
00:57:40
team? Uh
00:57:43
Hedley and Chatfield both
00:57:46
>> uh were pretty pokerface serious a lot
00:57:50
of the time and you know they had they
00:57:52
enjoyed themselves but
00:57:53
>> yeah they kept it pretty pretty serious.
00:57:56
>> But you you were one of them right? Like
00:57:58
you were Yeah. The three bowlers.
00:58:00
>> Yeah. Well, Headley and
00:58:01
>> Well, Kens and me and Troop and
00:58:03
>> and [snorts] of course Brace will bo
00:58:06
um who would you never want to sit next
00:58:08
to on a long haul flight? Oh.
00:58:12
uh probably younger. You know what what
00:58:14
you realized when you got older how far
00:58:17
out of touch you were with the younger
00:58:18
guys in the team. So So someone like an
00:58:21
Adam Peruri my last tour he was 19 I was
00:58:23
31. We just we weren't quite going to be
00:58:27
>> besties
00:58:28
>> besties. [laughter]
00:58:30
He's a good I've had him on the podcast.
00:58:32
He's a good dude now.
00:58:33
>> Oh he's he has done some remarkable
00:58:35
stuff. Um, but he was a different
00:58:37
generation, you know, different
00:58:39
mentality than me. So, you know.
00:58:42
>> Yeah. I can't imagine what like a
00:58:44
19-year-old Peruru was like. Just
00:58:46
>> the arrogance, the ego.
00:58:48
>> Yeah, we're all a bit like that if
00:58:49
we're, you know,
00:58:52
>> um, who had the weirdest pre-match
00:58:54
ritual?
00:58:56
>> Jeff House. Uh, before he went into bat
00:58:59
in internationals,
00:59:01
he would throw up, vomit every time. um
00:59:06
he just the pressure of it and then you
00:59:10
know carry on but that happened all the
00:59:12
time with him. He felt I love Jeff and
00:59:15
he was a great captain but he felt the
00:59:17
pressure internally you know and so he
00:59:20
he it was tough um and so he you know
00:59:24
before he batted he'd he'd throw up.
00:59:28
>> Best and worst dressed off the field.
00:59:32
>> Martin Crow would have been a snazzy
00:59:34
dress. Oh yeah. Know who he thought he
00:59:35
was. Um [laughter] no, he would have
00:59:37
been um
00:59:40
you know [snorts] that uh
00:59:43
God. Yeah, probably Marty, I guess. Um
00:59:46
the worst dressed.
00:59:48
>> Uh
00:59:49
Richard had some awful taste
00:59:54
in fashion.
00:59:56
[laughter]
00:59:59
Um [snorts]
01:00:00
>> what does that mean?
01:00:02
>> Can you [laughter] elaborate? Well, you
01:00:03
know, I don't you see old films, you
01:00:05
know, and you watch you look at some of
01:00:07
the stuff guys are wearing and think,
01:00:08
man, did they really wear that?
01:00:11
[laughter]
01:00:11
>> Um, who who talked the most rubbish
01:00:13
during a game? Were you a were you a
01:00:15
were you a sledger?
01:00:16
>> Uh, not not no braces by far was the
01:00:21
biggest sledger. John Bracewell,
01:00:23
>> like he would be in at people big time.
01:00:28
Um
01:00:30
our some of our batsmen would cap cap
01:00:33
cop it from the Aussies but not you know
01:00:35
for all their reputation
01:00:40
was just went over your head or you
01:00:42
didn't give a stuff about it. Um so
01:00:46
>> and who was grumpiest after a loss?
01:00:50
uh depending on how we'd lost,
01:00:54
>> you know, um Richard Jeff would hate it
01:00:59
if we lost because we'd played badly, if
01:01:02
we'd let ourselves down. Wasn't wasn't
01:01:04
too worried if if you know, we'd
01:01:07
actually played pretty well and lost.
01:01:10
>> But if we'd if we'd let ourselves down,
01:01:12
then then the leaders got pretty grumpy.
01:01:15
M
01:01:16
>> so after Chris after um cricket it was
01:01:19
law for a bit and then you ended up back
01:01:20
at NZ cricket as the
01:01:22
>> Yeah. So well actually it both happened
01:01:24
in the 1990s. So I retired in July 90
01:01:28
1990. Um went straight into my law firm
01:01:33
full-time.
01:01:35
Uh but at the same time exactly the same
01:01:37
time I went on to the border New Zealand
01:01:39
cricket. So by September 1990 I was on
01:01:41
the border New Zealand cricket.
01:01:43
>> Wow. they had been after someone who was
01:01:46
uh knew a bit more about what it was
01:01:48
like at the front line for players and I
01:01:50
just happened to be at the right place,
01:01:51
right time. So, so through the 90 I
01:01:55
worked with my brother for 10 years,
01:01:57
1990 to 2000
01:02:00
and I was on the New Zealand cricket
01:02:02
board for quite a bit of time during
01:02:04
that time
01:02:06
and then um Chris Doy had been CEO and
01:02:10
Chris amazing figure um had decided he'd
01:02:14
had enough and so he said to me why
01:02:16
don't why don't you think about becoming
01:02:18
CEO of New Zealand cricket which was
01:02:20
based in Christ Church and I B no I
01:02:23
can't do that. And he said he said you
01:02:26
only have to work 4 days a week and you
01:02:27
can play golf on the fifth. So naively I
01:02:31
believed him. And anyway Annie was Annie
01:02:34
was happy enough. We had four kids at
01:02:35
that stage. And she said yeah you know
01:02:37
let's have a change in life and shift
01:02:39
the whole family down to Christ Church.
01:02:41
And away we went. So you know it sort of
01:02:45
it just sort of happened really mainly
01:02:47
because of Chris. Um and I suddenly
01:02:49
found myself as CEO of New Zealand
01:02:52
cricket straight out of a law degree.
01:02:53
Never having worked in a sort of a
01:02:57
organization. Never had you know to look
01:02:59
after people or whatever. And so it was
01:03:02
a bit different. But um you know the
01:03:05
first few weeks I was there uh we had
01:03:07
the New Zealand team in Pakistan and a
01:03:09
bomb went off outside their hotel and I
01:03:12
soon learned the realities of life there
01:03:15
and um you know terrorism became quite a
01:03:17
big thing for the whole time that I was
01:03:19
CEO. Um it was just at that time it was
01:03:23
it was a big part of the world cricket
01:03:25
world particularly in Asia.
01:03:28
So um you know I just sort of learned on
01:03:30
the job. I had good people around me to
01:03:32
teach me a bit. And uh it was a volatile
01:03:36
time because it was also when the
01:03:37
players just started up with the players
01:03:39
association and in the first 6 months of
01:03:43
what was a negotiation between me and
01:03:45
Heath Mills [snorts] uh for the first
01:03:47
ever player contract system was a bit
01:03:50
was a bit uh volatile to the point where
01:03:53
uh uh about a month before the start of
01:03:56
the cricket season every player in New
01:03:58
Zealand went on strike. Um, so it was a
01:04:01
very public event. It kept radio sport
01:04:03
going every day. [laughter] Um,
01:04:06
uh,
01:04:07
>> yeah. How, how is that for you? So,
01:04:08
you're an ex player, a very experienced
01:04:10
ex- player, so you've got sort of, I
01:04:12
suppose, an empathy or understanding of
01:04:13
the players. Um, but then you're on this
01:04:16
other camp.
01:04:17
>> Yeah.
01:04:17
>> Yeah. It was a bit confusing time.
01:04:19
>> It was confronting. And
01:04:22
I think it was for the players, the
01:04:23
current then current players as well
01:04:25
because, you know, I had been a player.
01:04:28
Um but you know I I guess by that stage
01:04:31
10 years after I'd retired they just
01:04:33
regarded me as an old fart part of the
01:04:35
past and um
01:04:39
it it got incredibly acrimonious.
01:04:42
Um and even when we solved it I solved
01:04:45
it with a sledgehammer. Not not through
01:04:49
gifted negotiation with Heath but a
01:04:52
sledgehammer.
01:04:53
And so I forced an end result onto the
01:04:56
players that of course they hated. Um
01:05:00
but then I did a really smart thing um
01:05:04
which was that I went back to Heath and
01:05:05
said
01:05:08
we can't that's not the way I see it. I
01:05:10
actually agree with what you were trying
01:05:12
to do.
01:05:14
>> Um just a couple of aspects of what you
01:05:16
wanted how much money you wanted were
01:05:18
just too much for the circumstances.
01:05:20
But I really value and Heath and I
01:05:22
became having been not known each other
01:05:25
and been in the public domain pitted
01:05:27
against each other in a big way. We have
01:05:31
had become and and still are really good
01:05:34
friends. Um over that you know how many
01:05:37
years since then 24 years and and the
01:05:41
players association has been one of the
01:05:43
great success stories of cricket in New
01:05:45
Zealand.
01:05:45
>> Yeah. Um, so you know those sort of
01:05:48
things they happen and you're sort of
01:05:51
for a moment in time you're fighting as
01:05:54
hard as you can with something but as
01:05:57
time goes past you you know life moves
01:05:59
on
01:06:00
>> and uh you must have learned learned so
01:06:03
much about yourself. I suppose this is
01:06:04
like sharpening the axe for the 2011
01:06:06
World Cup but
01:06:07
>> you yeah what did you learn about the
01:06:09
importance about being respected rather
01:06:11
than necessarily being liked?
01:06:12
>> Yeah. Well, that's absolutely true is
01:06:14
that you know you had to
01:06:16
>> cuz cuz seriously the players hated me
01:06:19
at that stage and I don't blame them. I
01:06:23
was the opposition in their minds.
01:06:26
>> Um they didn't actually understand that
01:06:28
I actually agreed with them having a
01:06:30
really good system
01:06:33
and it's just they wanted too much money
01:06:35
that we couldn't afford.
01:06:37
>> That was the only real impediment.
01:06:39
Um
01:06:41
but yeah, you know, enormous pressure,
01:06:44
but probably Dom,
01:06:47
the pressure of having your players in
01:06:49
Pakistan and a bomb's gone off outside
01:06:51
of their hotel, it's blown out the
01:06:53
windows of the team bus. Fortunately,
01:06:54
they weren't sitting on it. Um knowing
01:06:57
that you had players lives in your
01:07:00
hands,
01:07:02
uh that was that was even harder to deal
01:07:05
with. That's that's reality.
01:07:08
and
01:07:09
um and trying to find a way to help the
01:07:13
players recover from that. And then, you
01:07:17
know, a couple of years later, we're in
01:07:18
South Africa for the Cricket World Cup
01:07:20
and the International Cricket Council
01:07:22
want us to play Kenya and Nairobi and
01:07:24
that was an absolute nogo area for
01:07:27
Westerners at the time. And
01:07:30
>> and I sat down with the players and I
01:07:32
said, I I just can't let you go there.
01:07:35
Um, and then I did the same with the
01:07:38
international cricket. People didn't
01:07:40
give us stuff. They thought we were just
01:07:42
being objectionable.
01:07:44
And I said, "No, no, our our players
01:07:46
have been through this, the reality of
01:07:48
it. This is not theory. This is this is
01:07:50
stuff that we know." And I said, "I'm
01:07:53
not putting them there." And and the
01:07:54
players themselves, you know, this is 2
01:07:56
years after all the the the contract
01:07:59
issues. They were trusting me by then.
01:08:02
And I said to them, I'm not going to ask
01:08:04
you to make a decision. I'm going to
01:08:05
make this decision, but I do want to
01:08:07
know what you think. And you know what?
01:08:09
Half of them wanted to go and half
01:08:10
didn't. Um,
01:08:13
and
01:08:15
so I defaulted a World Cup match, you
01:08:18
know, and it cost us a place in the
01:08:19
semi-finals doing that, but the players
01:08:22
and the player association supported it
01:08:25
full-time. M
01:08:26
>> and then you know these people that had
01:08:29
been criticizing me in world cricket
01:08:32
about a year year and a half later
01:08:36
um terrorists attacked their umpires and
01:08:40
match referees in Pakistan shot at a bus
01:08:42
that they were in and someone was
01:08:44
wounded and and um you know someone was
01:08:47
killed
01:08:49
and they you know cricket never went
01:08:51
back to Pakistan for 20 years after and
01:08:53
I'm thinking yeah well if you'd actually
01:08:55
listen to me. You might have found that
01:08:57
that you wouldn't have had that problem
01:08:58
then, [snorts]
01:08:59
but you you know, you were too ready to
01:09:01
put money
01:09:02
>> ahead of um ahead of welfare of players.
01:09:06
So, you know, you you do learn a hell of
01:09:08
a lot and I'd been through the mill. Um
01:09:13
and I hadn't I hadn't solved everything
01:09:15
spectacularly well, but I'd done okay.
01:09:18
And New Zealand cricket was doing okay.
01:09:21
It was Steven Fleming's team and and he
01:09:24
he was a superb captain and the players
01:09:26
did pretty well. And so I think when
01:09:30
they came to look for someone to run the
01:09:32
Rugby World Cup, they they looked at
01:09:34
that and thought they need someone who
01:09:36
is visible to New Zealanders who New
01:09:39
Zealanders sort of can connect with for
01:09:42
this. And so, you know, they came to me
01:09:44
and said, "Would you consider it?" And I
01:09:46
said, "No, no, I'm too wrapped up in the
01:09:48
Black Caps. want them to help them win
01:09:50
the cricket world cup in 2007.
01:09:53
So it went dead. But then they had
01:09:55
trouble finding who they wanted and they
01:09:57
came back a little bit later and by that
01:09:59
stage I thought oh I asked them whether
01:10:01
I could combine the two jobs for a while
01:10:03
which they agreed so I got the black
01:10:05
caps through to the um 2007 World Cup.
01:10:09
They didn't win it.
01:10:10
>> Um but I was able to then to transition
01:10:13
out of it pretty nicely.
01:10:16
>> Yeah. Hey, you just mentioned Steven
01:10:18
Fleming before. Um, how's the air con?
01:10:20
Is No, it's
01:10:21
>> Is the temperature good?
01:10:22
>> No, it's fine.
01:10:22
>> Yeah, I think it's a Toshiba as well.
01:10:24
>> I can't take my jersey off cuz I have an
01:10:25
iron machine. [laughter]
01:10:27
>> So, um, yes. So, when do you start with
01:10:29
the the 2011 World Cup stuff? Is that
01:10:31
2007?
01:10:32
>> Yeah.
01:10:32
>> Yeah. So they, you know, the what they'd
01:10:35
learned from the mistakes of Australia
01:10:38
running the Rugby World Cup in 2003 was
01:10:40
that if New Zealand rugby itself was to
01:10:44
run the event that it would take over
01:10:46
their whole organization. So they and
01:10:48
the government agreed, let's set up a
01:10:50
separate entity, we'll each own 50% of
01:10:53
it and that will be a new organization
01:10:55
set up solely to run the event. And so
01:10:58
that's the way it went. And then of
01:11:00
course they're starting from a zero
01:11:02
employee base. So they start looking for
01:11:04
you know a chief executive and a couple
01:11:07
of senior managers and it started from
01:11:09
there. So we I started I got appointed
01:11:11
at the end of 2006
01:11:14
did did that role which was pretty
01:11:17
gentle at that stage and the New Zealand
01:11:19
cricket CEO role through to the end of
01:11:23
the cricket world cup in May 2007 and
01:11:26
then shifted across and and began. So it
01:11:28
was just over four years of preparation
01:11:31
for that event.
01:11:32
>> Yeah. I got a quote from you. Outside of
01:11:34
raising a family, the Rugby World Cup
01:11:35
goes down as the number one event in my
01:11:37
life.
01:11:37
>> Yeah.
01:11:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. And it and it is I was so
01:11:41
uh inspired by
01:11:43
by what happened and proud of being part
01:11:48
of a team that could galvanize New
01:11:51
Zealand, not just rugby people,
01:11:53
>> but New Zealanders to get in behind it
01:11:57
and really um really support it in the
01:12:01
right way. And and when I say that, I
01:12:03
mean this. One of our biggest risks of
01:12:05
the event was that the All Blacks at
01:12:08
that stage had not won the Rugby World
01:12:10
Cup for since 1987
01:12:13
and people were getting pretty grumpy as
01:12:15
we went through, you know, World Cups
01:12:17
subsequently and you talked to Lori
01:12:19
Mains a short while ago.
01:12:20
>> Um I had John Hart on as well the impact
01:12:23
it had on his 99.
01:12:25
>> So the rugby community was pretty bloody
01:12:28
pissed with this that they hadn't won.
01:12:30
But of course, we were hosting the world
01:12:33
and we didn't want this to be all about
01:12:35
the All Blacks finally winning. We
01:12:38
wanted it to be a celebration of New
01:12:39
Zealand hosting the world. And that's a
01:12:42
completely different mentality. And it
01:12:44
was one of the reasons I think the
01:12:45
government supported the setting up of a
01:12:47
separate organization and didn't
01:12:49
necessarily find look for leaders that
01:12:51
came out of rugby to run it.
01:12:55
So um
01:12:58
so you know that the way in which we
01:13:01
laid a platform to get people connected
01:13:04
into it and then let them loose to do
01:13:08
the great stuff they could do. So we ran
01:13:11
the event I think from memory was 48
01:13:13
games of rugby. So okay there was a
01:13:17
there was a formula that we were bound
01:13:19
into to run 48 games of rugby. 20 teams,
01:13:22
48 games.
01:13:25
But there was this whole opportunity of
01:13:26
a nation nation coming in as hosts that
01:13:32
you just we just needed to find the
01:13:34
right keys to galvanize people to jump
01:13:36
on board and and for people to show them
01:13:40
communities to show themselves off. And
01:13:43
we got it right, you know, and I could
01:13:45
watch it growing and I knew this was
01:13:47
going to be great. And then to see it
01:13:49
just take off at the end was just was
01:13:51
fantastic.
01:13:52
>> And the line uh that was used was um a
01:13:55
stadium of a stadium of 4 million. Um
01:13:57
that sort of became like a mission
01:13:58
statement. Can you remember the origins
01:13:59
of that line?
01:14:00
>> Yeah, it it the the clever people that
01:14:03
were piecing together a bid to host the
01:14:06
tournament um working New Zealand rugby
01:14:10
came up with this and they were right.
01:14:12
what they were saying and this is sort
01:14:14
of goes back to about 2005
01:14:17
is that New Zealand you go back to that
01:14:19
time is the spiritual home of rugby the
01:14:22
All blacks you know
01:14:23
>> and
01:14:25
so that what they were saying is you
01:14:27
bring this rugby world cup to New
01:14:28
Zealand and we will give everyone the
01:14:30
greatest rugby experience
01:14:33
that was perfect for the bid because the
01:14:35
people who were voting on where it would
01:14:37
go it resonated with them they many
01:14:40
[clears throat] of them had played
01:14:41
against the All Blacks and they
01:14:42
respected, you know, that and that
01:14:44
history.
01:14:46
And so it was a really clever bid um
01:14:50
catchphrase. But when we started working
01:14:52
on it and started thinking about what's
01:14:55
the the story of the tournament,
01:14:59
>> we thought no, it can't just be about
01:15:00
rugby.
01:15:02
>> And so we gradually evolved this stadium
01:15:06
of 4 million from a pure rugby story. We
01:15:08
kept always kept rugby at the heart of
01:15:10
it because it had to be. But we started
01:15:13
spreading it so that it had reasons why
01:15:17
all sorts of communities around New
01:15:19
Zealand and people's could connect with
01:15:21
it in their own way without having to
01:15:24
commit to rugby as opposed to committing
01:15:27
to New Zealand hosting and you know
01:15:30
people saw the opportunity and it just
01:15:32
sort of mushroomed you know even [sighs]
01:15:35
>> like Deneden suddenly decided Carisbrook
01:15:38
was a dog and they'd build a new stadium
01:15:41
And from a riskmanagement point of view,
01:15:44
you're looking at this and thinking,
01:15:46
"God, are they going to finish this on
01:15:47
time and and it was going to have a a
01:15:51
roof over the top? Can they even cuz at
01:15:53
this stage we didn't know these sorts of
01:15:55
things, could they even grow grass on
01:15:57
the ground?" Well, the this was a
01:16:00
consortium of construction people that
01:16:03
were were engaged to build this. They
01:16:07
themselves made a conscious decision
01:16:10
that although they knew during the
01:16:12
construction period they would hit lots
01:16:14
and lots of problems with each other.
01:16:17
They would shove those problems, they
01:16:20
wouldn't necessarily resolve them if
01:16:21
they couldn't, but they would put them
01:16:24
aside
01:16:25
and they would concentrate on getting
01:16:27
the stadium built in time
01:16:31
as a contribution to the success of
01:16:33
Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. And
01:16:34
that's what they did. And and you won't
01:16:38
remember this, but they were building a
01:16:40
um a new uh motorway sort of out to the
01:16:45
airport in Oakuckland. And likewise,
01:16:48
Fletchers were leading a consortium that
01:16:51
were doing this. And they'd made exactly
01:16:53
the same decision. and they said, "Our
01:16:54
contribution to this is to finish this
01:16:57
motorway, get it ready so that when
01:16:59
people arrive in New Zealand for the
01:17:00
Rugby World Cup, this is ready and
01:17:03
working and they can enjoy their first
01:17:05
impressions of New Zealand coming in
01:17:07
from the airport are good ones."
01:17:08
>> And and I went along, you know, during
01:17:11
that construction time, I would go along
01:17:13
and speak to their workers and tell them
01:17:15
the story of Rugby World Cup and
01:17:17
everyone was into it big time and this
01:17:19
was happening in every direction.
01:17:21
Um,
01:17:22
>> so what year is this? This is sort of
01:17:25
well it started 2007 this work but it
01:17:27
really probably intensified around 2009
01:17:31
um 910
01:17:33
and you know so we had all these we were
01:17:36
running the rugby tournament but we had
01:17:38
all these projects happening around New
01:17:40
Zealand that we were connected into that
01:17:42
were all doing it for the same reason
01:17:44
>> and it was just inspiring and and you
01:17:46
just knew you know everyone was going to
01:17:49
make this work
01:17:51
>> and they did. And then there's
01:17:53
unforeseen things like the Christ Church
01:17:54
earthquakes. Did you did you lose like
01:17:56
literally lose sleep over those sort of
01:17:59
things? That must have been one of the
01:18:00
toughest decisions you've ever had to
01:18:01
make in your life.
01:18:02
>> Well, actually the decision was easy,
01:18:04
but the emotional
01:18:06
impact was enormous. So, you know, the
01:18:10
Christ Church um that happened in
01:18:12
February 2011
01:18:15
>> and we were sitting in a Rugby World Cup
01:18:18
board meeting in Oakland at Eden Park
01:18:20
and we had I don't know why but we had
01:18:21
the TVs on without the sound and we
01:18:24
suddenly started seeing what was
01:18:26
happening in Christ Church breaking news
01:18:28
and we realized you know what a major
01:18:31
this was going to be. And
01:18:34
so the next two weeks we had, you know,
01:18:37
cuz the government was into this big
01:18:39
time, every service that you needed,
01:18:43
police, whatever, they were into it. And
01:18:45
so it wasn't hard to to to
01:18:49
extract the information we needed. And
01:18:51
what became really clear and and topped
01:18:55
off I think with an inspection one day
01:18:57
of Lancaster Park and seeing what a mess
01:18:59
it was
01:19:00
>> is that the decision was obvious we
01:19:03
couldn't go there.
01:19:05
>> But then communicating that to the
01:19:07
Christ Church people who were in the
01:19:08
worst moments of their lives. And so
01:19:10
what we did is we we staged the
01:19:12
communication over a period of two to
01:19:14
three weeks to take him on a journey so
01:19:16
that when when we made our decision, it
01:19:18
had a much better chance of being
01:19:21
accepted than it would do if we'd come
01:19:23
straight out and said no show. Even
01:19:25
though we knew really early on there was
01:19:27
no show. Um and [snorts] then we had to
01:19:30
concentrate really hard on how to, you
01:19:32
know, we're talking about a stadium of 4
01:19:33
million. How do you keep
01:19:36
>> Christ Church engaged? So, a lot of work
01:19:38
went into finding ways of doing that and
01:19:42
we did okay in the end.
01:19:44
>> How did you do it?
01:19:45
>> Well, um
01:19:48
well, we had to, you know, we'd had
01:19:50
seven games were were set down to be
01:19:52
played at Lancaster Park and we'd sold
01:19:54
28 million bucks worth of tickets at the
01:19:56
time the earthquake happened. All those
01:19:59
games had to be reallocated around New
01:20:01
Zealand and you couldn't just send seven
01:20:02
games to some other place. So, you it
01:20:04
was a hell of an exercise. We kept as
01:20:07
many of them in the South Island as
01:20:09
possible so that access of Christ Church
01:20:11
people who wanted to go would be closer.
01:20:14
Um some we had to send to Oakland. Well,
01:20:17
the airlines and the hotels said we will
01:20:21
we will anyone who had an air ticket to
01:20:24
go to Christ Church could change it free
01:20:26
of charge to go to Oakland. The hotels
01:20:28
would charge them only the same rates
01:20:30
that whatever people had booked in
01:20:31
Oakland. Um
01:20:34
some people in Oakland started up a free
01:20:36
bulleting so anyone from Christ Church
01:20:39
would come up and stay with them for
01:20:40
free. It was some amazing stuff went on
01:20:42
in the opening ceremony which was an
01:20:45
amazing
01:20:46
uh ceremony.
01:20:49
We had Jon Almo was was a centerpiece,
01:20:52
but
01:20:54
you might remember there was a little
01:20:55
kid that he brought onto the field. Um,
01:20:59
and he was wearing a Canterbury jersey,
01:21:01
you know, and he became a bit of a star
01:21:04
of of the opening ceremony.
01:21:07
Um
01:21:09
uh three of the teams, touring teams,
01:21:12
well the All Blacks plus Australia and
01:21:14
England all agreed to go down to Christ
01:21:17
Church and spend well they didn't agree.
01:21:19
They said this is what we're going to
01:21:21
do. Martin Johnson leading England.
01:21:23
Robbie Deans was in charge of Australia
01:21:25
and Robbiey's from Christ Church
01:21:26
obviously.
01:21:28
They took their teams down to Christ
01:21:29
Church during the tournament. They they
01:21:31
stayed there so people could connect
01:21:33
with them, you know. Um
01:21:37
it it but I mean God
01:21:41
[snorts] it was it was awful.
01:21:43
>> Um
01:21:47
>> knowing what you know now, were you
01:21:48
qualified for the job or did you grow
01:21:50
into it?
01:21:51
>> Uh bit of both.
01:21:53
>> Uh
01:21:54
>> I don't know if you can ever be fully
01:21:55
qualified for a
01:21:56
>> Listen, I I'd had a good background in
01:22:00
events and world world cricket cup world
01:22:03
cups.
01:22:04
Um
01:22:07
uh I' I'd had the pressures of cricket
01:22:11
which in the end were nowhere near close
01:22:13
to what rugby world cup was but it still
01:22:15
had had meant that I had experience been
01:22:18
under real pressure and people had seen
01:22:19
me under pressure. So there was that
01:22:21
sort of thing, but then uh you you have
01:22:24
to learn it on the job. But we did have
01:22:26
four years and it was lovely because it
01:22:28
was quite gentle to start with and then
01:22:29
it just gradually grew and grew and
01:22:31
grew. So you could grow with it, you
01:22:33
know, and uh I had an extraordinarily
01:22:36
talented team working with me because we
01:22:39
could pick the best of the best, you
01:22:41
know, everyone wanted to work on this.
01:22:43
And so the the sort of people that were
01:22:46
working on Rugby World Cup were just
01:22:50
brilliant. And so that workforce by the
01:22:53
time it was, you know, getting close to
01:22:55
the event, that would have been the most
01:22:56
talented workforce in New Zealand.
01:22:59
Would your reflection on the event be
01:23:01
different if the All Blacks had hadn't
01:23:02
won or was the rugby sort of irrelevant?
01:23:04
It
01:23:05
>> to me it was irrelevant and that was it
01:23:07
was always about how would New Zealand
01:23:10
be seen as the host of a world event and
01:23:14
we already knew before the final we'd
01:23:16
nailed it. And and in fact my my um I'll
01:23:19
tell you the story and you know who
01:23:21
Steven Jones is. So Steven Jones is a
01:23:23
rugby writer from England. Oh yes.
01:23:26
>> And he has made a living out of needling
01:23:29
New Zealand rugby and the All Blacks for
01:23:31
years and years and years and and you
01:23:33
know he'd sort of he'd condemn the
01:23:35
hacker and say it should not be allowed
01:23:36
and make awful comments about it and New
01:23:39
Zealand rug he was persona non grata
01:23:41
with New Zealand rugby. Um and he was
01:23:45
the head of the rugby tribe of
01:23:47
journalists in England who hated the
01:23:50
idea the rugby world cup was coming to
01:23:52
New Zealand by the way. They thought
01:23:53
what a you know that that's a real step
01:23:56
backwards that it comes to this little
01:23:58
country in [snorts] the middle of
01:23:59
nowhere. So 2 years before the event I I
01:24:03
emailed Steven and said can we catch up?
01:24:08
You know I'm coming to England. Why
01:24:09
don't we catch up? And so we agreed to
01:24:12
meet. He lived south of London so far
01:24:14
somewhere and we found a halfway in
01:24:17
between where I was and he was in a
01:24:18
restaurant, Italian restaurant and we
01:24:21
caught up at about noon and we rolled
01:24:24
out at about 5:00 p.m. after a couple of
01:24:27
bottles of of red and he said I told him
01:24:32
the story of the stadium of 4 million my
01:24:34
vision our vision and he said if you can
01:24:38
deliver on that then I will tell the
01:24:40
world that that is a great thing so he
01:24:43
and I then stayed in close contact New
01:24:46
Zealand rugby didn't like this idea but
01:24:48
wasn't their business
01:24:51
and I just made sure every year I'd go
01:24:53
to England and to France and I'd get the
01:24:55
journalists together and I'd take him to
01:24:58
a pub and give him free drinks and free
01:25:01
pizza cuz the jouros that that really
01:25:04
worked hard, you know, and and I'd do a
01:25:07
gentle cell, not a hard cell, gentle
01:25:09
cell all the time. And so I got to know
01:25:11
them quite well.
01:25:12
>> Made them feel valued, I guess.
01:25:13
>> Yeah. And then and then they loved the
01:25:16
the idea that we were spreading this
01:25:18
around New Zealand, even if they hated
01:25:20
it going to New Zealand. I loved what
01:25:21
was happening in terms of preparation,
01:25:23
communities preparing to host teams. And
01:25:26
then Steven, I I emailed him about 3
01:25:28
months before the tournament and I said,
01:25:30
"Listen, I've got a holiday home at
01:25:31
Tapo. Why don't you stay there for a
01:25:33
while while you're out here?" And
01:25:36
>> Oh, you went deep. [laughter]
01:25:38
>> And he said, "Yeah, sure. Love to." And
01:25:40
he said, "Do you mind if I take a few of
01:25:41
my Jouro mates with me?" And I said,
01:25:42
"No, no, absolutely. Go for it."
01:25:45
um he fell in love with Annie as well
01:25:46
cuz Annie turned up at that long lunch
01:25:48
and um uh so he would often refer to her
01:25:53
um uh long-suffering wife and so
01:25:57
[snorts] there's just a there was a real
01:25:58
connection there and so he did he came
01:26:00
and stayed at Tapo
01:26:02
and
01:26:03
>> Jeez, I can't believe you gave him the
01:26:05
keys to your house. Well, it, you know,
01:26:07
I was sacrificing serious. You took me
01:26:09
>> sacrificing it for New Zealand
01:26:10
[laughter]
01:26:11
>> and um but because we delivered, you
01:26:14
know, he reflected that in the way he
01:26:16
wrote and so did all of the British
01:26:18
journals
01:26:20
>> and so we turned what could have been a
01:26:22
big risk into into actually what was a
01:26:25
real endorsement from those people.
01:26:28
>> Um [laughter]
01:26:29
>> Oh, that's a great story. Is that in
01:26:31
your book?
01:26:31
>> Yeah, it is.
01:26:32
>> It is. And then I' I stayed in touch
01:26:34
with him, you know, and if I emailed him
01:26:35
now, he'd be really receptive. You know,
01:26:37
it's just I don't get these free trips
01:26:39
to England anymore with jobs. So,
01:26:41
>> was there a moment during the tournament
01:26:43
where you and your team could sort of
01:26:44
exhale and think, "Yeah, we've done it."
01:26:46
>> Well, it it so once the tournament
01:26:48
started or
01:26:50
>> uh listen, the first night of the
01:26:52
tournament, which was the opening, the
01:26:54
opening ceremony was unbelievable. It
01:26:56
was brilliant. Um but actually also what
01:26:59
happened that night was the train broke
01:27:01
down between downtown Oakland and Eden
01:27:04
Park. Now that wasn't our responsibility
01:27:07
but it had a huge impact on how people
01:27:10
it was bloody stupid because it was the
01:27:12
biggest risk we could see transport-wise
01:27:14
in the whole tournament and but the the
01:27:17
train line there only had one track. So
01:27:19
if a train broke down, it broke down.
01:27:20
There was nothing you could do about it.
01:27:22
So we were telling people
01:27:25
not to come downtown and then try to get
01:27:27
to Eden Park. Well, people ignored it
01:27:29
and this there were, you know, I I don't
01:27:31
know how many people, but 100,000 plus
01:27:33
down on the waterfront on the opening
01:27:36
afternoon was massive. Yeah. There were
01:27:38
screens at the cloud and there were
01:27:39
public events.
01:27:40
>> Yeah.
01:27:41
>> And uh and then of course people tried
01:27:43
to get to Eden. Well, of course they had
01:27:44
trouble and so a lot of people were late
01:27:46
to the start of the game which was, you
01:27:48
know, a bit of criticism and I'm
01:27:49
thinking, well, you know, you took on
01:27:51
bit too much there trying to do both.
01:27:54
But um so that caused a bit of angst and
01:27:57
then the games kept rolling out and and
01:28:00
you could see the the uh support that
01:28:03
people were giving it right around the
01:28:04
country and you could see all the teams
01:28:06
relaxing into it and enjoying it. But we
01:28:09
still had this we had a financial
01:28:13
issue hang over our heads. The co the
01:28:16
tournament was budgeted to make a $30
01:28:18
million loss. I think it the budget was
01:28:22
uh I think 300 million say against a
01:28:25
cost of 270 million and both the
01:28:28
government and New Zealand rugby who
01:28:30
were responsible for the loss were
01:28:33
putting enormous pressure on us and and
01:28:36
we had to hit a ticket revenue
01:28:40
you know say the ticket revenue was 270
01:28:43
million and the previous largest ticket
01:28:47
revenue event in New Zealand's history
01:28:50
was sold out Lions Tour in 2005 which
01:28:54
off the back of every game sold out it
01:28:56
generated 24 million. So we had to do 11
01:28:58
times that to hit ticket budget. So,
01:29:01
we're up against it the whole way, but
01:29:03
we were tracking. But then we would get
01:29:06
to the start of the a day or two before
01:29:08
the tournament. We're about 20 million
01:29:11
short, 25 million short. And I was
01:29:14
catching it in the neck from I remember,
01:29:17
you know, I'll never forget one
01:29:18
journalist had me on live radio and she
01:29:20
just ripped the [ __ ] out of me [snorts]
01:29:22
about you're never going to reach this
01:29:24
target. And it didn't matter what I said
01:29:26
to her. She just had it in for me and
01:29:28
and the tournament. Well, what we knew
01:29:31
is that two things that people didn't
01:29:34
didn't think about. One is once the
01:29:37
tournament's up and running, you're
01:29:38
still selling tickets right through to
01:29:39
the time it finishes. So, so you you
01:29:42
didn't reach the end of ticket sales
01:29:45
before the tournament. It was kept
01:29:46
going. And the second thing was the
01:29:48
magnificence of the opening ceremony
01:29:51
galvanized people to say, I want to be
01:29:53
there. And so, ticket sales after the
01:29:56
opening ceremony just took off. But even
01:29:58
so, 20 million was a big target. Well,
01:30:02
we hit that 20 million target
01:30:05
um 2 days before the final and you know
01:30:09
the four me and the three senior
01:30:11
managers were sitting in Oakuckland at a
01:30:13
hotel room when the news came through
01:30:15
and we just looked at each other and
01:30:17
thought, "Wow, you know that that was
01:30:19
something we probably between ourselves
01:30:21
unspoken thought we might struggle on
01:30:25
this one." Mhm.
01:30:26
>> And then we hit it and we didn't even
01:30:28
have to sort of we bought a bottle of
01:30:30
champagne and we just quietly celebrated
01:30:33
hitting that but we still had you you
01:30:35
couldn't relax because you couldn't
01:30:38
relax until all the teams had left New
01:30:40
Zealand and gone home and so you know
01:30:42
you on edge but I have to say when we're
01:30:45
at the final and the All Blacks had
01:30:47
scraped in which which even though it
01:30:49
wasn't our number one objective still we
01:30:51
knew would help enormously in terms of
01:30:53
the thing and because they it was a
01:30:55
close final was probably a good thing.
01:30:58
Um cuz it felt like everyone then was
01:31:01
connected even more cuz they'd been the
01:31:03
people inside the park had been dragged
01:31:04
through 90 minutes of psychological hell
01:31:07
to get there.
01:31:08
>> Actually months of psychological hell.
01:31:10
>> Yeah. There was Dan Carter getting
01:31:12
injured.
01:31:13
>> Um Steven Donald story was brilliant.
01:31:16
>> Richie McCoy training on a broken foot.
01:31:18
>> Yeah. No, they were brilliant. All these
01:31:20
stories but we weren't connecting with
01:31:22
the All Blacks. [clears throat] You
01:31:23
know, for us, they were just one of the
01:31:24
20 teams. Sounds odd, but that's the way
01:31:26
we decided to do it because if we
01:31:28
favored them in any way, other teams
01:31:31
would pick up on this and their junos,
01:31:33
and we would get absolutely nailed
01:31:35
rightly.
01:31:36
>> And so, they for us were just another
01:31:38
team, but of course, in your heart, you
01:31:40
want the All Blacks to win the
01:31:41
tournament. So, it really wasn't until
01:31:43
we were sitting there
01:31:45
um at Eden Park in the final that I
01:31:48
actually for the first time switched on
01:31:49
to them and and hoped. But the funny
01:31:52
thing is I'm sitting in the stands at
01:31:54
Eden Park cuz I'm running the
01:31:55
tournament. I get quite good tickets and
01:31:58
um I'm sitting next to the guy who had
01:32:00
run the World Cup in France four years
01:32:03
before and he had become a good friend.
01:32:06
He's another one who who stayed at Tapo,
01:32:07
him and his family. [snorts]
01:32:09
And um
01:32:11
uh
01:32:13
he that and even though we had been
01:32:15
really good friends,
01:32:17
suddenly I'm realizing he's realizing
01:32:19
we're sitting next to each other and
01:32:21
France are playing New Zealand and this
01:32:22
is the ultimate test. So the two of us
01:32:25
for the whole event were as quiet as can
01:32:27
be respecting each [laughter] other.
01:32:32
So it [snorts] was Yeah, it was it was
01:32:34
memorable. But you know when we were
01:32:35
having a few drinks after the game had
01:32:37
finished even Murray McCauley, Minister
01:32:39
of Sport came up to me and shook my
01:32:40
hand. Now Murray and I had had our
01:32:42
moments with each other or he was the
01:32:44
minister so he'd had his moments with me
01:32:47
and so it was quite a nice thing to in
01:32:49
the end know that he was happy. Um and
01:32:53
of course Jock Hobbs
01:32:55
>> rest in peace.
01:32:56
>> Yeah. Well, you know, he jocked the
01:32:58
cancer had started to emerge during the
01:33:00
leadup to the event and so he'd had to
01:33:03
step down from chairing the board cuz he
01:33:05
was my boss
01:33:07
and but he was kept fully involved in
01:33:10
the whole thing. So to sit with him
01:33:11
after the final and know that we'd
01:33:13
achieved what he'd been it had been his
01:33:15
dream right at the start to bring the
01:33:17
World Cup to New Zealand. Uh and so for
01:33:20
him to be able to see that through, you
01:33:21
know, he died uh a few months after the
01:33:25
event, incredibly sad story, but but um
01:33:28
but he had at least seen it succeed
01:33:31
beyond even his expectations. Yeah, I'll
01:33:33
never forget that moment of him
01:33:35
presenting Mccor with his cat for 100
01:33:37
tests. It's incredible.
01:33:38
>> Um
01:33:39
>> you mentioned Mari McCulli before. There
01:33:41
must have been a bunch of people like
01:33:42
him whose when your phone started
01:33:44
buzzing and you saw a name on the
01:33:45
screen, you your heart sunk a little
01:33:47
bit. Who was on that list? There must
01:33:49
have been journalists.
01:33:50
>> Mari was top [laughter]
01:33:52
uh by a considerable distance.
01:33:55
>> Um
01:33:57
and
01:34:00
uh
01:34:01
we didn't we didn't gel [snorts] easily
01:34:05
mainly because I didn't understand
01:34:07
politics enough and I didn't really
01:34:09
realize the power imbalance between us.
01:34:14
I sort of regarded us more of colleagues
01:34:16
and whatnot. And I made a few false
01:34:18
steps and he came down on me, you know,
01:34:21
a ton of bricks.
01:34:24
But then
01:34:25
and and I that happened about 2 years
01:34:27
before the tournament or 18 months
01:34:29
before and I had to fight my way back
01:34:31
from that
01:34:33
um to gain his confidence after that was
01:34:36
it was pretty tough. Ah.
01:34:38
>> Um,
01:34:41
but also what I what I saw was how
01:34:45
Murray had the power within government
01:34:47
to make things happen and he over the
01:34:52
period that he was in charge, Minister
01:34:54
of Rugby World Cup and particularly in
01:34:57
the last 3 months before the event,
01:35:01
he made a whole lot of things happen in
01:35:04
government to support us And so he,
01:35:09
you know, he did a fantastic job
01:35:12
enabling us and enabling New Zealand to
01:35:15
succeed and and by the end of it, we'd
01:35:19
sort of, I think, made peace with each
01:35:21
other and even more afterwards.
01:35:24
>> Um, well,
01:35:25
>> I suppose you both had like a just an
01:35:27
unimaginable amount of pressure on you
01:35:29
for for getting it right.
01:35:30
>> Well, he had John Key on his back
01:35:32
saying, "Mate, we've staked our
01:35:34
reputation." cuz when when national got
01:35:36
voted in halfway through our preparation
01:35:39
key had come out and said I've got two
01:35:41
major objectives. One is the economy and
01:35:44
the other is rugby world cup. We're
01:35:46
thinking [snorts] that's us. Um and so
01:35:52
uh there was and and and then key said
01:35:57
to Mali, "Well, you're our guy. You make
01:35:59
sure this happens."
01:36:01
And so you're you're probably right is
01:36:03
that Murray was under under pretty
01:36:06
strong pressure from Key to make sure he
01:36:08
got it right. Um and he transferred some
01:36:11
of that stress onto me at times.
01:36:13
[laughter]
01:36:13
But but he was a brilliant enabler
01:36:16
>> in the end. So you know I realized
01:36:19
afterwards I was a bit naive and I'd
01:36:21
made some mistakes at the time he
01:36:24
started really getting into me and if
01:36:26
I'd been smarter I would have avoided
01:36:28
those and there wouldn't have been those
01:36:29
sort of issues. But I didn't I just
01:36:31
wasn't politically savvy enough at the
01:36:33
time and so I coped it from him and it
01:36:35
was uncomfortable. It was really
01:36:36
uncomfortable.
01:36:38
>> What like can you offer any examples?
01:36:40
>> Oh, I was just sort of sidelined a bit.
01:36:42
You even though I was the CEO of the
01:36:43
thing, they'd go around me a fair bit
01:36:45
and
01:36:46
>> stuff to get some things done.
01:36:48
>> Right. Just cuz they lost confidence in
01:36:50
you.
01:36:50
>> Yeah, a little bit. And
01:36:54
so I had to steal myself and say,
01:36:55
"Right, do I get out of this now or do I
01:36:59
hang on in there and fight my way back
01:37:02
into it?" And the only way I could fight
01:37:04
my way back into it was doing it their
01:37:07
way rather than doing it my way.
01:37:10
>> Okay?
01:37:10
>> And that was quite a learning for me.
01:37:13
Um, but you know, I shut my mouth and I
01:37:16
buckled down and that's what I did. I
01:37:19
didn't like it much. Um, but I knew that
01:37:23
if I wanted to stay in it, that's the
01:37:25
way I had to do it. So, I did it
01:37:27
>> and, you know, gradually, you know, got
01:37:30
it back on an even keel, which was good,
01:37:32
which meant that and that by the time I
01:37:34
got it on an even keel, it was probably
01:37:36
>> two or three months before the
01:37:37
tournament. So, I was able to actually
01:37:39
enjoy the tournament. In fact, you know,
01:37:42
the role of CEO quite of what you in a
01:37:45
in an event like that, you are the main
01:37:47
storyteller. And that was something that
01:37:50
I was good at. I could tell the story
01:37:51
that people would it would resonate with
01:37:53
them and they'd buy into it.
01:37:55
>> Well, by the time the tournament starts,
01:37:58
the need for me to tell those stories
01:38:01
had disappeared. It was already
01:38:02
happening. And so the you know the
01:38:05
running of the tournament rested with my
01:38:07
operational team headed by the Walsh who
01:38:09
was just unbelievable.
01:38:12
And so I could sort of relax during the
01:38:15
tournament while she made sure things
01:38:18
happened which she did. Uh so I actually
01:38:20
enjoyed the tournament. I actually
01:38:22
enjoyed rocking around and turning up
01:38:25
and watching all these games of rugby.
01:38:26
And
01:38:27
>> I suppose the job's done by that point
01:38:28
is
01:38:28
>> well my job was hers wasn't. she had to
01:38:31
make and I was responsible if it if it
01:38:33
went wrong,
01:38:35
>> but she's so capable
01:38:38
that it worked.
01:38:40
>> Um, and then you needed a bit of luck. I
01:38:42
the one of the there's a few things if I
01:38:45
stand up and tell a story I'll talk
01:38:47
about the Tongan team arriving at
01:38:49
Oakland airport and the Tongan community
01:38:51
in Oakland going out there and the red
01:38:53
flags and
01:38:54
>> and you know bringing traffic to a
01:38:57
standstill and their enthusiasm and the
01:38:59
way people sort of really bought into
01:39:01
that
01:39:02
>> early on there was a game at Eden Park
01:39:04
between Australia and Ireland and in the
01:39:07
stadium it felt like you were in Dublin
01:39:10
you know there were 55,000 people
01:39:12
dressed up in green supporting the
01:39:14
Irish. Um, and the Irish won a
01:39:18
completely unexpected victory which
01:39:21
turned the the expectations of the
01:39:23
tournament on its head cuz it we we
01:39:25
thought we would head towards Australia
01:39:27
New Zealand final, but it actually that
01:39:29
result meant that we were going to be
01:39:31
playing Australia in the semi as long as
01:39:33
we got that far.
01:39:35
And uh so that was a bit nerve-wracking
01:39:37
because we got to the semi playing
01:39:38
Australia, Robbie Deans as captain uh as
01:39:41
coach, Quaid Cooper as public enemy
01:39:43
number one. If they had beaten us then,
01:39:47
you know, that could have soued a whole
01:39:49
lot of people quite significantly,
01:39:51
>> but um it didn't happen.
01:39:53
>> Um but you know, there were just moments
01:39:55
in the tournament. Steve Chu and I were
01:39:58
driving to New Plymouth for a game and
01:40:00
we went through King Country in a little
01:40:02
town called Benedale and you know
01:40:04
Benadale's got a population of about 10
01:40:07
and one main street and the lamposts in
01:40:11
the street each of them had handpainted
01:40:13
murals on them depicting each of the 20
01:40:16
teams in the tournament and the one shop
01:40:17
was just covered in the bunting of Rugby
01:40:19
World Cup and we looked at each other
01:40:20
and thought
01:40:22
>> you know this is how far this
01:40:23
tournament's got into New Zealand. It
01:40:25
was brilliant. So there was sort of all
01:40:26
those brilliant memories
01:40:29
>> and you got recognized for it in the uh
01:40:31
2012 New Year's honors list.
01:40:33
>> Yeah.
01:40:33
>> What did you get? Um
01:40:35
>> companion of not quite sure what it
01:40:38
means but companion of
01:40:39
>> services to sports admin. Yeah. What
01:40:41
what did that mean to you?
01:40:42
>> Oh that was that was uh really nice. I I
01:40:47
think I saw the reaction of my family to
01:40:49
it. you know, my brothers and sister and
01:40:52
and Annie um and they were really
01:40:55
thrilled. I [snorts]
01:40:57
my my greatest satisfaction wasn't that
01:41:01
it was actually being part of select,
01:41:04
you know, successfully delivering the
01:41:06
tournament. That was just a nice sort of
01:41:08
way to top it off in the end. But but
01:41:11
then I saw the reaction of them and I
01:41:13
thought, well, you know, they care.
01:41:16
>> Um so, you know, that was nice.
01:41:20
>> [gasps]
01:41:20
>> Man, what a career. What a life.
01:41:23
>> It's gone in a few different directions.
01:41:24
>> Yeah. So, you're about to turn 67.
01:41:27
>> Yeah.
01:41:27
>> Yeah. How How do you feel at this stage
01:41:29
of your life?
01:41:30
>> Well, are you in a reflective stage or
01:41:32
you still smashing goals?
01:41:34
>> I thought I was moving into a reflective
01:41:36
stage a few times in the last 10 years.
01:41:39
You know, I would I would finish Rugby
01:41:42
World Cup and then I'm sort of saying,
01:41:43
Annie, oh, maybe I'll just cut back a
01:41:45
bit and whatever. Then I walked into
01:41:47
tourism and that wasn't cutting back. It
01:41:49
was fullon.
01:41:51
And then
01:41:53
uh by that stage we were looking we were
01:41:55
living in Wellington for the Rugby World
01:41:57
Cup and tourism and we wanted to get
01:41:59
back to Oakland and Dave Higgins had
01:42:01
been talking to me about getting
01:42:02
involved with Dookco and
01:42:05
um so in the end I said yeah okay let's
01:42:09
let's do that.
01:42:11
So that you know that there was nothing
01:42:14
quiet about that job. It was just full
01:42:17
on the whole time. And
01:42:21
uh it took me into really uncomfortable
01:42:23
territory because you know I was a kid
01:42:27
who had a pretty protected upbringing
01:42:29
and whatnot. And I was stepping into the
01:42:32
middle of uh something that you know
01:42:36
this was this was they they were filled
01:42:39
with they had a staff of kids that had
01:42:42
had hard lives.
01:42:43
>> They were talented but they you know
01:42:45
each had their stories that would were
01:42:49
depicted pretty hard times and they
01:42:52
didn't know me. You know, the
01:42:53
interesting thing, I could walk in there
01:42:55
and out of a staff of seven or eight,
01:42:59
they didn't have a clue who I was.
01:43:00
>> So, I had no
01:43:03
um head start on how they would think
01:43:07
about me. I had to earn everything
01:43:10
>> to get their respect and cooperation.
01:43:12
So, that was a that was a a really
01:43:16
interesting uh exercise of trying to and
01:43:20
it was all an open plan office. And
01:43:22
there's no me sitting in a in an office
01:43:25
by myself. It was we're all pitched in
01:43:27
together, including Dean and David. So,
01:43:29
it was a it was a vibrant, volatile
01:43:32
environment.
01:43:33
>> Yeah, I know quite a bit of the team.
01:43:35
Eclectic bunch of people. Yeah. Dean,
01:43:38
David, Kalina, um Stenway.
01:43:41
>> Odd bunch of people.
01:43:42
>> Well, [laughter] but but this was
01:43:44
>> wonderful people. But
01:43:45
>> but but this was you know I guess David
01:43:49
just David himself you know people don't
01:43:54
recognize his genius. I do.
01:43:59
He's got you know he's got a few
01:44:01
shortcomings.
01:44:03
Um but he has got a genius that I
01:44:05
haven't seen in anyone else. and
01:44:08
uh he would he would choose people that
01:44:14
there's no formula to it. It's just
01:44:16
whether he looked at them and thought
01:44:18
you can do a job for us. And so you're
01:44:20
right, it was
01:44:22
>> an interesting bunch and I learned an
01:44:24
enormous amount because there I am
01:44:27
uh you know suppose I was 60 at that
01:44:30
stage
01:44:32
never been exposed to this sort of
01:44:33
environment in my life hanging on in
01:44:36
there trying to look confident but you
01:44:38
know hanging on in there and then there
01:44:41
was one side of the business that was
01:44:43
about celebrity events and and there was
01:44:45
some neat stuff that we did like um
01:44:48
Nigel Lawson and or one night with
01:44:51
Richie Mccor and Dan Carter Vector
01:44:53
Arena. And so those sorts of things
01:44:55
which I was comfortable with. I knew
01:44:57
that sort of side of it. But then there
01:45:00
was the boxing side. Well, I you know
01:45:02
when I'd been talking to David and Dean
01:45:04
about doing the job, I'd never really
01:45:05
for a second given any thought to the
01:45:07
boxing side. And probably because at
01:45:10
that stage they didn't have Joseph
01:45:14
Parker wasn't a big player. Well, you
01:45:17
know, I walk in there and
01:45:20
uh realize, okay, I'm going to have to
01:45:22
be pretty closely involved in running a
01:45:24
series of boxing events
01:45:26
and started to to see what they were
01:45:30
doing with Joseph.
01:45:32
And you know, at that stage when we we
01:45:34
started, he was he was a complete
01:45:37
unknown
01:45:38
>> kid they' picked out of South Oakland
01:45:41
>> um who had some talent but but not
01:45:43
universally recognized. And Bob Jones
01:45:45
was one who who, you know, into boxing
01:45:47
but didn't rate Parker and was quite
01:45:49
critical of Dooku supporting them. And
01:45:55
they only they contracted two fighters,
01:45:58
Parker and uh a young Aussie kid called
01:46:03
Jeff Horn lived in Brisbane,
01:46:06
>> little welterweight. And
01:46:09
so they started running events to show
01:46:11
these kids off and to work them through
01:46:13
the world rankings, which are a maze.
01:46:15
You know, there's four different
01:46:16
rankings and and David and Dean would
01:46:19
just be constantly plotting how can we
01:46:21
get these kids through this to the point
01:46:23
where they could be challenging for a
01:46:25
world title. It was fascinating to
01:46:27
watch. And of course, I'm I'm trying to
01:46:29
get myself up to speed with boxing. At
01:46:31
the same time, Annie's looking at me and
01:46:33
thinking, "I don't know why you're doing
01:46:35
this, and I don't like it." You know,
01:46:37
she hated the boxing side, and most of
01:46:39
the family felt that the same way. So,
01:46:43
[laughter] so I'm trying to contend with
01:46:45
that. And um and yet we started to make
01:46:49
progress with these two kids. and and
01:46:52
David and Dean were just unbelievably
01:46:55
good about how they threaded them
01:46:57
through the rankings and how they wooed
01:47:00
the various world body people to needle
01:47:04
them into giving Joseph a go or Jeff a
01:47:06
go
01:47:07
>> and then us creating these boxing events
01:47:09
that were designed to show them off and
01:47:11
this is where David and Dean were
01:47:12
spending all of their own money um there
01:47:15
wasn't it wasn't particularly profitable
01:47:18
at that stage
01:47:20
but then the kids both started to
01:47:22
succeed and we started to get them going
01:47:24
and
01:47:26
uh and then it became apparent you know
01:47:28
what both these kids could get to the
01:47:30
point where they could fight for world
01:47:32
titles. So I'm one stage I'm doing a box
01:47:35
refereeing course to try and make myself
01:47:38
understand a bit more cuz I was looking
01:47:39
at the ring and thinking these are so
01:47:41
close I can't tell the difference as to
01:47:42
who's winning who's losing.
01:47:44
>> And anyway I did that that became
01:47:46
slightly clearer.
01:47:48
Uh but it was just the theater of taking
01:47:50
them through and then of course you know
01:47:52
Joseph got his chance but but to get his
01:47:55
chance and to make sure it happened in
01:47:57
Oakuckland. David and Dean put
01:47:58
everything on the line for that to
01:48:01
happen
01:48:02
>> and you know so and Joseph just snuck in
01:48:07
in the he he fought a guy called Carlos
01:48:09
Tackom Tackom
01:48:12
and it was an eliminator fight to see
01:48:13
who would fight for a world title and
01:48:16
seriously I thought he'd lost. I think
01:48:18
most people thought I had just missed
01:48:19
out and the the judges saw it our way.
01:48:22
So, he won that. So, he got a title
01:48:24
fight, but he they then had to put up an
01:48:25
enormous amount of money. But the
01:48:27
difference in that 2-year period, 18
01:48:30
months, 19 months, the first fight I was
01:48:33
invol involved in, Joseph fought it at
01:48:36
um Manacow Feladrome, and we had grossed
01:48:39
$28,000 of hospitality.
01:48:44
In the last two fights that I was
01:48:45
involved in, the Carlos Tackham and then
01:48:47
Andrew Ruiz who fought for the title,
01:48:51
>> uh we sold more than $2 million worth of
01:48:54
corporate hospitality um to people and
01:49:00
uh we did it we most of that was done in
01:49:03
in a space of 48 hours where we would
01:49:06
warm people up. We're going on market.
01:49:08
We're going on market. Then we'd go and
01:49:11
the whole thing would go crazy for 48
01:49:13
hours and we'd sell all this hospitality
01:49:18
and and then you know the I I'd said to
01:49:22
David and Dean Wright, sorry, but I'm
01:49:24
finishing. I've I'm worn out and they
01:49:27
desperately tried to hang on uh hang on
01:49:30
to me for a while. But I said, listen,
01:49:33
I'm sorry. I just can't do it anymore.
01:49:35
Um but Parker had his fight and he won
01:49:39
and he became the world champion WBO
01:49:42
heavyweight I think. Um a month or so
01:49:46
later they sell out Suncorp Stadium in
01:49:49
Brisbane and Jeff Horn beats Manny
01:49:52
Pacquiao to become world champion. Two
01:49:54
young kids. They only chose to. They
01:49:56
only contracted two. This is why I think
01:49:58
they've got brilliance there. Both of
01:50:01
them became world champions.
01:50:03
Um,
01:50:06
and even even when Parker was fighting
01:50:09
for the world, Annie wouldn't come.
01:50:12
Only one brother would come along. That
01:50:13
was it. Um, so, you know, [snorts] so I
01:50:16
had to get out. [laughter]
01:50:19
>> Creating tension at home. Yeah. And um,
01:50:21
David's had significant success since
01:50:23
then with the symphony format as well.
01:50:26
Yeah. He's a he's a genius. He is.
01:50:28
>> Yeah. Um, is there anything you're still
01:50:31
working on as a man at this stage of in
01:50:34
your life?
01:50:35
>> Well, well, I hadn't finished telling
01:50:36
you. But I was sort of there was a risk
01:50:39
I was drifting towards retirement and I
01:50:42
was still heavily involved in New
01:50:43
Zealand cricket and as a board director
01:50:45
and then I became the chair
01:50:48
but actually I then
01:50:50
uh got the opportunity to start
01:50:56
uh pulling together
01:50:59
the the board chairs of the various
01:51:01
sports in New Zealand at a national
01:51:03
level.
01:51:06
And you know this is the for the past 15
01:51:09
years this 20 years this is what I've
01:51:12
sort of almost specialized in doing is
01:51:13
grabbing groups of people
01:51:16
and getting them together into into
01:51:19
cohesive communities and so I got the
01:51:21
chance to do this that started 5 years
01:51:23
ago and that that's been incredibly
01:51:26
stimulating. So, you know, most of the
01:51:28
people listening to this will be yawning
01:51:30
now about, you know, this sort of thing,
01:51:32
but for me, it's incredibly motivating.
01:51:35
And and what it's done also is it's
01:51:37
given me a focus for this part of my
01:51:39
career that I didn't expect.
01:51:41
>> And so, I'm totally motivated around
01:51:44
this stuff now to make it work and to
01:51:46
get people, you know, as as
01:51:50
competent as they can be when they're
01:51:51
cheering the boards of these national
01:51:53
sporting organizations cuz they're full
01:51:55
of risk those jobs. So, [snorts] you
01:51:56
know, that keeps me going. So, I've I've
01:51:58
probably changed now from from I I I
01:52:02
don't think I'd have the resilience to
01:52:03
do a CEO role again,
01:52:06
>> but I've got the resilience to form
01:52:08
these communities and get them working
01:52:09
with each other.
01:52:11
>> Resilience or like just energy, time,
01:52:14
motivation.
01:52:15
>> I just, you know, I think each time you
01:52:18
do a CEO role, you get beaten up
01:52:22
>> quite a lot.
01:52:24
and I was sick of being beaten up, you
01:52:26
know, even though I'd had lots of good
01:52:28
times out of those roles, I just
01:52:31
couldn't be bothered doing that again.
01:52:33
>> And I so I didn't want to expose myself
01:52:35
to that. Um, so the these other ones
01:52:39
have less of that happening,
01:52:42
>> but are still really
01:52:44
intellectually stimulating to try and
01:52:47
get a bunch of people
01:52:49
um into a better shape than what they
01:52:51
are when you start. And that's been, you
01:52:53
know, that's been good fun. And that
01:52:54
that sort of led, you know, I mentioned
01:52:56
to you a little bit earlier about I'm
01:52:59
taking the government on at the moment
01:53:00
about some gambling legislation where
01:53:03
they in the first part of forming that
01:53:05
legislation
01:53:07
um they've completely stuffed up
01:53:09
>> and but I've I suddenly had a whole
01:53:12
community that I've been working with
01:53:13
that I could galvanize into this and the
01:53:16
government got completely surprised by
01:53:19
how strong we were, how quickly we were
01:53:21
strong to say to them, you're doing the
01:53:23
wrong M
01:53:24
>> so you know those sort of things are
01:53:26
good fun.
01:53:28
>> You're never going to stop. Eh,
01:53:30
>> I don't want to stop. But what I what's
01:53:33
happened now, and this has been the case
01:53:35
for the last four or five years, is I'm
01:53:37
totally in control of my own diary.
01:53:40
>> Yeah.
01:53:41
>> The sorts of things I do largely I
01:53:43
determine when I do them, which means
01:53:47
that that um I feel in control of my
01:53:50
life,
01:53:51
>> you know. Um,
01:53:54
last week I put some bookings in place
01:53:57
for Annie and I to go to Europe next
01:53:59
year for 6 weeks and we're going to walk
01:54:02
the Camino walk in Spain. Um,
01:54:06
now you know, we're not going to walk
01:54:10
800 km, which is the full length of one
01:54:13
of them, but we'll walk probably 3 to
01:54:15
400 km. And all we'll be doing is just
01:54:17
walking through countryside in Spain and
01:54:20
talking to each other and the other
01:54:21
people that are on the trip and just
01:54:23
basically,
01:54:24
you know, living in that that world. And
01:54:27
I can do that sort of thing now. So I'm
01:54:29
setting up my whole diary for next year
01:54:31
now carving out those sorts of windows
01:54:33
and it's quite a freeing thing to be
01:54:35
able to do that and yet at the same time
01:54:37
still be active in a lot of,
01:54:40
>> you know, different business things.
01:54:41
>> Yeah. Are you happy? Are you enjoying
01:54:43
this phase of life?
01:54:44
>> Oh yeah. Fantastic.
01:54:45
>> Yeah. Um, I I think I I mentioned to you
01:54:49
also earlier, you know, the reality of
01:54:52
your mortality
01:54:54
starts to hit home more the older you
01:54:56
get.
01:54:57
>> And so therefore,
01:54:59
um, the the motivation to not waste your
01:55:05
time
01:55:08
uh, is great, but but doing stuff that I
01:55:12
enjoy. Now, you know, a lot of the stuff
01:55:14
I do is hard slog, but I enjoy it.
01:55:17
>> Um, and then there's, you know, the
01:55:19
family stuff and whatnot and and Annie's
01:55:22
just retired from teaching, although
01:55:24
she's doing a lot of relieving stuff,
01:55:26
but, you know, we we can
01:55:29
go to a family home in Tapo now that
01:55:32
Steven Jones has moved out. [laughter]
01:55:34
And, um, [snorts] you know, we can do
01:55:36
that whenever we want sort of stuff. and
01:55:39
and getting involved in cycling's been
01:55:41
really interesting cuz they have been
01:55:42
through really tough times
01:55:44
>> and I knew that
01:55:46
>> and I thought it'd be really neat to
01:55:48
help them with the recovery process and
01:55:51
it's been it's been as interesting as
01:55:54
now I know nothing and I'm not learning
01:55:56
anything about what happens on the track
01:55:59
with cycling. I'm just concentrating on
01:56:01
on the organization and how it can run
01:56:04
as well as it needs to. So, you know,
01:56:06
those sort of things that I would never
01:56:08
have known two years ago that's what I'd
01:56:10
been involved in. But opportunities
01:56:12
arise and you look at them and quickly
01:56:14
say, "Oh, well, yes, all right, or no, I
01:56:16
won't get involved in that."
01:56:18
>> Well, you've got so much experience,
01:56:20
>> haven't you? And um your kids, your four
01:56:23
kids, all in their 30s now. Have you got
01:56:25
grandkids? Are you a grandparent?
01:56:27
>> Four grandkids.
01:56:28
>> Yeah. Um, and that's another phase of
01:56:29
your life, you know, you get into and
01:56:31
and you know, my kids are
01:56:36
turning out as Annie and I would hope.
01:56:39
So, we love and and really admire each
01:56:41
of them. Um, they've hooked up with with
01:56:44
good people. Um, so we like them a lot.
01:56:47
Um, and now the grandkitties have come
01:56:49
along and that's so there's four now and
01:56:53
by my count there should be eight by the
01:56:55
time they're finished if they're
01:56:56
listening. Um,
01:56:58
>> no pressure,
01:56:59
>> no pressure,
01:56:59
>> no urgency.
01:57:00
>> And so we're sort of adapting to that
01:57:02
life of of having to be part of those
01:57:05
kids' lives. And it's and it's
01:57:07
brilliant.
01:57:08
>> Yeah.
01:57:08
>> Um,
01:57:10
and so, you know, there's there's always
01:57:12
things happening and and so we are being
01:57:15
kept going forward. Um, so I don't want
01:57:19
to think about [snorts] stopping. M
01:57:21
>> you know I I can evolve what I do
01:57:25
but I can't see a time of stopping.
01:57:28
>> Your grandkids, how how do you hope they
01:57:30
see you as a man?
01:57:32
>> Uh you you quickly realize that it
01:57:35
doesn't matter what you have done or
01:57:38
what you think you've done,
01:57:40
>> they're not interested.
01:57:42
>> They are only interested in how you
01:57:45
connect with them. And so the
01:57:47
concentration goes on to
01:57:50
connecting with them in a way that that
01:57:52
is fun for both them and us.
01:57:55
>> And so um you know we've got to the
01:57:56
stage now where two of them we can take
01:57:58
them away down to Tapo for a few days
01:58:01
[laughter] and cross our fingers and
01:58:03
>> and um must be nice to give them back at
01:58:05
the end.
01:58:06
>> Oh god. Yes. And um but you know they
01:58:09
[snorts]
01:58:10
>> you know we every Saturday morning in
01:58:11
the winter we're off to soccer to watch
01:58:13
the six-year-old play. And it's just fun
01:58:15
watching them grow. Yeah.
01:58:16
>> Uh, and having a tiny bit of influence,
01:58:19
not much because it's their parents that
01:58:20
are leading them,
01:58:22
>> but we can chime in there and and just
01:58:25
be people that they like being with, and
01:58:27
that's that's what we want to make sure
01:58:29
it is.
01:58:30
>> What's a perfect day off for you?
01:58:33
>> You know, I'm useless having days off.
01:58:38
you know, if I'm if I'm sitting at home,
01:58:40
Saturdays and Sundays to me, I potter
01:58:44
around doing
01:58:46
different parts of work. Um, but I don't
01:58:50
begrudge any of it and it's not
01:58:51
intrusive and this, you know, it might
01:58:53
happen for 2 or 3 hours a day and it
01:58:55
won't stop anything that Annie and I
01:58:57
decide we're going to do. Um,
01:59:01
so I don't I don't switch off
01:59:04
much. I read a lot. I read
01:59:08
two or three prime novels a week. Um,
01:59:12
and you know that that's really
01:59:14
important. Um
01:59:18
but uh yeah and we walk a lot together
01:59:22
you know we walk around the streets
01:59:24
around here and in Tapo and stuff and
01:59:27
that's um that's really relaxing and
01:59:29
just staying connected to each other you
01:59:31
know cuz I think
01:59:32
>> when I was a CEO under the
01:59:35
I learned this in cricket
01:59:38
is that I sort of got consumed by it and
01:59:42
when you're consumed by it you you
01:59:44
sometimes I didn't see clearly enough
01:59:48
um around me in my family life and Annie
01:59:52
let me know and I sort of learned that
01:59:54
lesson. So even under the pressure of
01:59:56
rugby will cut uh it it wasn't a problem
01:59:59
to keep a good balance but we've just
02:00:01
ensured um that we stay connected with
02:00:05
each other um at all times and that's
02:00:08
that's really important.
02:00:10
>> Yeah, I know you missed one of your your
02:00:12
kids births. Uh Stephanie, you were
02:00:14
batting for New Zealand at the time. It
02:00:16
>> was brilliant. Um
02:00:18
so, so
02:00:19
>> I just I just point that out as like
02:00:20
just one of the I'm sure many sacrifices
02:00:22
you've made.
02:00:23
>> Oh, yeah. But it turned into a a a great
02:00:25
thing for us to remember because
02:00:28
>> so um this
02:00:31
we decided we'd have a second kit and
02:00:34
and we you know with pregnancies we were
02:00:37
lucky. It happened sort of quickly most
02:00:40
times. didn't even know about the last
02:00:42
couple um just happened. Um but with
02:00:46
Steph, we looked at the cricket schedule
02:00:49
and thought, "Right, there's a good gap
02:00:51
there in November. [snorts]
02:00:53
Let's go for it." And
02:00:57
um and Annie got pregnant and then New
02:01:01
Zealand cricket suddenly decided we
02:01:02
would go and play Australia in Perth
02:01:05
uh in November. And so I rang them up
02:01:08
and said, "Well, you know, this is a bit
02:01:10
of a problem." and they said, "Don't
02:01:11
worry, when's the baby due?" And the
02:01:12
baby was due about a week before the
02:01:14
start of the test. So they said, "Don't
02:01:16
worry, stay in New Zealand till the
02:01:17
baby's born and then come and join us."
02:01:20
Um, but of course, Steph was late. And
02:01:23
in those days, you didn't go in for
02:01:26
induced births or C-sections or
02:01:28
whatever. You sort of just waited. And
02:01:32
so she she just wasn't arriving. And
02:01:35
then um Annie said to me and Annie had
02:01:37
her mom with her who she probably had
02:01:40
more confidence in around birth than
02:01:42
[laughter] me and she said I'll just go.
02:01:45
So we went across and then it still
02:01:48
Steph didn't come until about the second
02:01:50
day of the test match and
02:01:53
um
02:01:57
uh they were obviously we had a New
02:01:58
Zealand crew over there for the test
02:02:01
match and Graeme V um Tony Vch's dad was
02:02:04
leading it and he came to me and said
02:02:05
hey Paul Holmes wants to interview you
02:02:08
and Annie on the 7:00 p.m. show uh the
02:02:12
home show which was huge.
02:02:15
>> So we'll do it by satellite. and you
02:02:17
come down to the ground and and Annie
02:02:20
will be at home with new baby. And so
02:02:23
they sent round, you know, all the
02:02:25
camera people to our house and deport
02:02:27
for her and um I was down at the ground.
02:02:31
Um it was only about 8:00 in the morning
02:02:33
so it didn't interfere with the cricket.
02:02:35
And Paul did this live cross and and
02:02:39
that was sensational in the sense that
02:02:42
he gave us we had quarter of an hour
02:02:44
talking to him and and then he said just
02:02:48
carry on talking to each other and we'll
02:02:50
bug her off and and we did that. Um
02:02:53
which was neat and and so you know it
02:02:56
became pretty high high profile about
02:02:59
Steph's birth. Um, so it was it actually
02:03:03
was was fun what the way all that by the
02:03:06
time I'd come back home some dear old
02:03:08
lady in Devport had knitted a New
02:03:10
Zealand cricket jersey for Steph and you
02:03:13
know it was all that and in those days
02:03:15
Dom it's hard to imagine now with the
02:03:17
media coverage that exists everywhere
02:03:20
but in those days we only had TV1 and TV
02:03:23
2 and News Talk ZB had just started
02:03:27
>> and then the music channels and so if
02:03:30
cricket it was on TV one, everyone was
02:03:33
watching it because there were only two
02:03:34
channels to watch. So you were really
02:03:36
well known, particularly as it turned
02:03:38
out, by older generations who, you know,
02:03:41
would sit around home watching cricket
02:03:43
on TV.
02:03:43
>> Yeah.
02:03:44
>> Suited them. And so you you actually I
02:03:48
was recognized by a lot of people
02:03:52
um just because that I was sitting on TV
02:03:54
in their in their
02:03:57
>> you know um family rooms
02:03:59
>> and it was sort of you know strange.
02:04:04
>> Yeah. And and the home show that you
02:04:05
mentioned before that was a massive
02:04:07
deal. Every everyone watched either the
02:04:09
homes show or Shortland Street. Yeah.
02:04:11
>> And this is before Yeah. before
02:04:13
smartphones before FaceTime. So to have
02:04:15
like a connection like that where you
02:04:17
could um see your baby was a big deal.
02:04:19
>> Oh, well, you know, I'd go away on a
02:04:21
tour
02:04:22
and
02:04:24
you get I'd have to write letters home
02:04:26
once a week and they'd take a week to
02:04:28
get there and
02:04:31
I could ring home, but you were taking
02:04:34
pot luck cuz you could you had no
02:04:37
smartphones or anything. You couldn't
02:04:38
organize a time. So, I just would guess
02:04:40
at a time and and if we got lucky, we
02:04:43
could Annie and I could talk to each
02:04:44
other. Um, but you could only afford to
02:04:47
talk for five, six, seven minutes cuz
02:04:49
the cost was horrendous
02:04:51
>> and and you know, I'm away for 3 months
02:04:53
and this is happening.
02:04:55
>> Uh, so you do forget
02:04:58
>> but that was what life was like. So, you
02:05:00
know,
02:05:01
>> we didn't know any different.
02:05:02
>> Didn't know any different.
02:05:03
>> Yeah. [snorts]
02:05:04
[gasps]
02:05:04
>> What are your best and worst habits?
02:05:08
Uh
02:05:10
my well from a work point of view my one
02:05:12
of my best habits is I'm really
02:05:15
diligent. One of my worst habits is that
02:05:18
I drive people crazy with
02:05:22
detail and you know just constantly at
02:05:27
them. So the two things go hand in hand
02:05:28
really.
02:05:29
>> It's quite funny. I had Sir Steve Hansen
02:05:30
on the podcast and he he his theory is
02:05:32
that um with most people their greatest
02:05:35
strength is also their greatest
02:05:36
weakness.
02:05:36
>> Yeah. Well, I think that's right. As I
02:05:38
sometimes forget that in my enthusiasm
02:05:42
>> and also given that I control my own
02:05:44
work life is that other people are on
02:05:47
the receiving end of and I'm I I sort of
02:05:51
um you know I'm still useless. I sit
02:05:54
there and and communicate mainly by
02:05:57
email and I do a lot of it on weekends
02:05:59
cuz I spend the whole week talking to
02:06:01
people and don't have time to to tidy
02:06:03
everything up. So at the weekends I sit
02:06:05
there and then people would be on the
02:06:07
receiving end of emails from me on the
02:06:10
weekend and they wouldn't know whether
02:06:11
to reply or not. And if I said please
02:06:13
don't bother you know I'm just getting
02:06:15
it off my thing and it wouldn't matter.
02:06:16
They feel like oh this guy I better
02:06:19
respond to him quickly. So you know
02:06:21
>> anyway that's uh
02:06:22
>> you need to use more emojis. [laughter]
02:06:25
>> I haven't quite I can do that on the
02:06:28
smartphone. I don't know how to do it on
02:06:29
a computer. Um but probably
02:06:34
my worst habit at home is a failure to
02:06:36
actually apart from walking which I'm
02:06:39
good. I really at this age need to be
02:06:41
doing some some proper stretching and
02:06:44
strength stuff. I used to do it when I
02:06:45
was playing but I'm hopeless and I know
02:06:48
I need to do it cuz it's going to count
02:06:49
if I don't.
02:06:50
>> Yeah.
02:06:51
>> And I keep telling myself this and I've
02:06:53
been telling myself for four or five
02:06:54
years but I just haven't
02:06:56
>> haven't uh got over that bar. I have to
02:06:59
for the commamino. I can't walk for two
02:07:02
or three weeks without actually
02:07:03
preparing for it. So hopefully that's a
02:07:05
catalyst.
02:07:06
>> What are you most afraid of?
02:07:09
>> Um
02:07:12
I you know at this stage of life would
02:07:14
be living life without Annie if if
02:07:17
something were to happen to her and I
02:07:19
think she probably feels the same. You
02:07:21
know I was actually just
02:07:25
working through the rest of the life
02:07:27
without her. we're so close
02:07:29
um
02:07:31
uh that it would be it would be really
02:07:34
tough. So, both of us, you know, don't
02:07:37
really want to think about this, but
02:07:39
that it weighs on us a little bit. You
02:07:41
know, and that's why we've got to stay
02:07:43
healthy and and also enjoy ourselves
02:07:45
while while we really can.
02:07:46
>> Surprise for great love, though, isn't
02:07:48
it?
02:07:48
>> Well, she's been great. I mean, we
02:07:50
>> you know, we've been together since
02:07:52
1979. We blind date. um and
02:07:59
married for 42 nearly 43 years. So,
02:08:04
you know, she's put up with a lot. Um
02:08:06
[snorts]
02:08:07
so have I [laughter]
02:08:10
just in case she's listening finally to
02:08:12
one of these.
02:08:13
>> If you regret that comment, I I'll
02:08:15
remove it. [laughter]
02:08:16
>> And um so we've, you know, we worked out
02:08:19
a way of working with each other and it
02:08:21
works. Um
02:08:23
>> yeah, what is the key? What is the key
02:08:24
to that sort of longevity? Uh um I I
02:08:27
tell you one and seriously one of the
02:08:30
most important things that we learned
02:08:33
was the value of her been having a real
02:08:37
purpose in life which was completely
02:08:39
separate
02:08:40
>> to anything I was doing. I mean the
02:08:42
problem is when you're doing the sort of
02:08:43
high-profile stuff I was doing for a
02:08:45
while, it tends to consume life around
02:08:49
you. And
02:08:52
um she had she had been a lawyer, had
02:08:56
then had our four kids and had raised
02:09:00
them and got them well advanced.
02:09:04
And
02:09:06
um
02:09:07
the risk at that time was that she'd
02:09:09
feel like she'd always be an add-on to
02:09:11
me in cricket or whatever.
02:09:14
>> And so she retrained as a teacher and
02:09:16
she she then started teaching full-time.
02:09:19
And it was fantastic for her. It gave
02:09:22
her her sense of real purpose. Um, it
02:09:27
was great for both of us because I knew
02:09:29
she was happy doing that and so she I
02:09:32
wasn't worried about her being worried
02:09:33
about what I was doing and the time it
02:09:35
would take and so it really worked. Um,
02:09:38
and so we've kept that going. She taught
02:09:41
for 17 years and still teaches a wee bit
02:09:45
relieving. Um, and that's a great thing
02:09:47
because it means she's got her own life,
02:09:49
her own lots of her own friends. Um, and
02:09:54
and I know that makes her happy and and
02:09:57
that takes a bit of pressure off me,
02:09:59
which means I can do some of the things
02:10:01
that I'm doing. And then but a whole lot
02:10:04
of what we do is together. So, you know,
02:10:06
you got that lucky balance really.
02:10:07
>> Yeah. Annie and the kids, how would how
02:10:11
would you like them to describe you when
02:10:12
you're not in the room? Maybe three
02:10:14
words.
02:10:15
>> [laughter]
02:10:16
[gasps]
02:10:17
>> How would you like them to describe you?
02:10:18
>> I like them. I I you know I think I
02:10:22
don't know. Um what do you say? Um
02:10:26
uh really funny. Like my ability to tell
02:10:30
jokes is amazing, but I it's only really
02:10:33
me that appreciates it. [laughter]
02:10:36
Um so they roll their eyes and and uh
02:10:39
>> well [snorts] puns dad jokes. Well, they
02:10:42
could be anything, but but you know,
02:10:44
it's just um I think they should better
02:10:47
appreciate my sense of humor. That's
02:10:49
that's something that would be great. M
02:10:53
>> um I think uh
02:10:57
you know I think as long as all of them
02:11:01
including Annie feel supported that's
02:11:04
important that
02:11:05
>> that I am there and have been there when
02:11:08
they've needed
02:11:10
>> me when they've needed that sort of
02:11:13
connection you know that change when
02:11:15
your parents have you take it in turns
02:11:19
sometimes it's Annie that has to be the
02:11:21
lead supporter and
02:11:22
just need to be there supporting her to
02:11:24
support them. And then the depending on
02:11:27
what it is, sometimes that switches
02:11:28
around, you know, and
02:11:30
>> and so that if they feel support and
02:11:34
love, then that's all of them and that's
02:11:37
great.
02:11:38
>> Um, but I feel it from them, so that's
02:11:40
I'm lucky. So, as long as they feel like
02:11:42
it's a two-way thing.
02:11:44
>> So, we've been going for 2 hours 10
02:11:46
minutes. when you when you revisit um
02:11:49
aspects of your life like this, like in
02:11:51
a greatest hits sort of format, I guess.
02:11:53
Um you know, the playing career, the
02:11:55
early years, um yeah, the boardroom, the
02:11:58
family stuff. Yeah. Are you proud of
02:12:00
yourself?
02:12:01
>> Yeah. Uh I am. Uh
02:12:06
uh but I've I've as I get older, I've
02:12:08
leared to keep things
02:12:12
uh in perspective a lot more. So, in
02:12:14
other words, you know, I can be
02:12:16
delighted about stuff, but also
02:12:18
understand that's just, you know, and
02:12:21
it it I guess what I'm trying to say is
02:12:24
that
02:12:25
it it it the family stuff is much more
02:12:29
important,
02:12:30
>> getting that right, keeping it right
02:12:32
than the work stuff. But actually, it's
02:12:35
the combination of the two that that
02:12:37
sort of makes me feel really good. But
02:12:40
then Dom, you know, as you talked about
02:12:43
a few minutes ago, I don't want to stop.
02:12:45
I mean, either on the home front or the
02:12:49
or the work front. I just want to find
02:12:51
things to do that are um uh contributing
02:12:56
to what's around me and and which I find
02:13:00
really satisfying to do.
02:13:02
>> So, that's really easy, you know, when
02:13:03
you're a grandparent because
02:13:06
you your kids need help. You know, it's
02:13:09
a hard life. I've they they look at us
02:13:11
now and say, "How the hell did you have
02:13:13
four kids?" You know, they've got two
02:13:14
kids, two of them, and they just can't
02:13:17
imagine having four kids, particularly
02:13:19
they were six and under at the time to
02:13:21
start with.
02:13:23
So, you see them rushed off their feet.
02:13:25
So, you know, you got to chip in and and
02:13:27
then when you do, you got to make sure
02:13:29
that the the grandkids enjoy it so that
02:13:31
it's not just a shove them in front of
02:13:33
TV and that's it type thing. is um
02:13:36
you've actually got to help them enjoy
02:13:38
the experience so they want to come back
02:13:39
and then it gets really good fun. But on
02:13:42
the work front I want to keep using my
02:13:43
brain. I want to keep helping
02:13:48
um
02:13:49
organizations do a bit better. Um
02:13:53
[snorts] that's why cycling so
02:13:54
interesting is that that they were a
02:13:57
basket case for a while. They started to
02:13:59
climb out before I got involved. Now
02:14:02
I've got a chance to to help them go
02:14:06
much further than that and get back to
02:14:08
proper stability. Um it'll take, you
02:14:11
know, there's a couple of years left in
02:14:13
and getting that far, I think. But but
02:14:16
you know, I'm really clear about that's
02:14:18
what my role is with them.
02:14:20
>> I'm excited to see what you do through
02:14:22
your 70s.
02:14:24
>> My sister just turned 74 today. She's
02:14:26
number two out of five.
02:14:29
Each of my siblings are still working,
02:14:33
you know, in their 70s. Now, I never
02:14:35
would have guessed that 10 years ago,
02:14:37
but it's an indication that life has
02:14:39
changed, that um, you know, people still
02:14:43
want to keep doing stuff
02:14:46
um to keep their lives interesting.
02:14:51
>> And so, yeah, but I don't want to think
02:14:53
that far. I'm quite happy just to think
02:14:54
about the next few months. And um I'm
02:14:58
also now a great believer that something
02:14:59
will come up.
02:15:01
>> You know a lot of things I'm doing now I
02:15:03
never would have guessed 5 years ago.
02:15:05
>> And I think you know as long as I do the
02:15:08
things I'm doing now well then that
02:15:11
means that opportunities will come out
02:15:14
of nowhere and if they look interesting
02:15:16
then
02:15:17
>> you know who the hell
02:15:18
>> do boxing never
02:15:21
>> in 2011 would have thought that's where
02:15:23
I would be for a while.
02:15:24
>> Yeah that was random. No one had that on
02:15:26
their bingo card for you.
02:15:27
>> I didn't. They didn't. Um, but it
02:15:30
happened
02:15:31
>> and it just now becomes part of my
02:15:33
>> rich memory of, you know,
02:15:35
>> the rich tapestry of life as they say.
02:15:37
>> Yeah. Is it nice reflecting like this?
02:15:39
>> Yeah, it is. I mean, it is. And you've
02:15:41
you've done a lot of homework on this
02:15:42
and um
02:15:45
h Yeah, it is. It is. Well, I think from
02:15:51
my perspective, if someone um like you
02:15:52
is going to give me a couple of hours of
02:15:54
your time, it would be um the least I
02:15:56
can do is some thorough research.
02:15:58
>> Thanks, [laughter] mate. No, it is good.
02:15:59
I mean, it's but I could probably do it
02:16:02
to you,
02:16:03
>> you know, if I've set myself. I could I
02:16:06
could sit there and research
02:16:09
um for quite a long time. I'd have to
02:16:10
talk to a few people, but you've done a
02:16:12
hell of a lot.
02:16:13
>> Um and I don't see you stopping. you
02:16:16
know, our conversation at the start here
02:16:18
about the podcast business you're now
02:16:20
building up um with JJ. It's it's
02:16:24
that's exciting. That's something, you
02:16:26
know, you wouldn't have thought about 5
02:16:28
years ago. And that's I think that's the
02:16:30
important thing about life is you
02:16:31
actually are ready to be able to see,
02:16:35
assess, and if you think it's right,
02:16:37
take opportunities
02:16:38
>> that are in front of you, and they won't
02:16:40
go away if you've still got that
02:16:41
mindset. It's only if you just close
02:16:43
yourself down and and whatnot that
02:16:46
things will start to disappear.
02:16:48
>> Oh, I see life like a like a rugby
02:16:49
match. So 50 is sort of halfway. So
02:16:52
we're in the second half now. Just in
02:16:53
the second half.
02:16:54
>> Same as you. There's a long way to go.
02:16:56
>> Um yeah, when I was 30, my my goal would
02:16:59
have probably been to retire by 50.
02:17:00
>> Yeah,
02:17:01
>> that was sort of an aspirational thing.
02:17:02
Now I couldn't think of anything worse.
02:17:03
Like you need purpose, don't you?
02:17:05
>> Well, when I was 30, I thought I'd be a
02:17:06
lawyer the rest of my life with my
02:17:08
brother. And I thought that was just
02:17:10
pre-ord pre-ordained
02:17:13
and then um got thrown up in the air.
02:17:15
Christo saying to me, why don't you come
02:17:17
see of New Zealand cricket?
02:17:20
>> Um
02:17:22
well, Martinstead, this has been a lot
02:17:24
of fun.
02:17:25
>> Me too.
02:17:25
>> You are a great New Zealander and thank
02:17:27
you so much for coming on my podcast.
02:17:28
>> Thanks Tom. Pleasure.
