00:00:00
I'd always thought I'd cod to politics at some point in my life. I was always
00:00:03
encouraged to do like entrepreneurial things. So, I had a lot of things on the go as a kid, my teenage life. I had a
00:00:07
professional window cleaning round. I had um a fence painting, roof painting, and deck painting business here. And I
00:00:12
obviously worked at McDonald's, which I loved in in Christ Church when I came to
00:00:15
town. It was a big deal. And then I went to university, did a three-year VCOM. I
00:00:19
got into a one-year masters of commerce, business administration. Halfway through
00:00:22
that year, I got recruited by this company called Uni Lever, which one of the biggest companies in the world.
00:00:26
Yeah. We met when we were 15. And we really became really good friends with a big group of kids and you know I
00:00:31
actually think that's important for kids to have quite wide circles of friends. I
00:00:35
like my my kids were pretty much the same and we started dating at 19, married at 23 and then do the rest of
00:00:40
the life together and honestly best decision I'll ever make. You know greatest privilege of my life being
00:00:45
married to Amanda. Did you save yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean, we um [Music]
00:00:54
Kiwis's love first. Like Finn, we're making [Music] [Applause] [Music] waves. Generate. Switch online today.
00:01:13
Christopher Laxon, Prime Minister, welcome to my podcast. Oh mate, I'm stoked to be on your podcast. Uh you're
00:01:19
someone, as I said before, I've followed for a long time and um I just love the
00:01:22
format of what you're doing here. It's absolutely brilliant. So um no, looking
00:01:25
forward to our chat and conversation. It's uh it's it's wonderful. I'm I'm
00:01:29
nervous. I'm really nervous. Oh, please don't be nervous. No, honestly, let's
00:01:32
just have a chat as mates at a pub. It'll be great. So um you just if you're
00:01:35
good, I'll be good. And another thing I'm nervous about, my little dog is uh
00:01:38
in the studio with us. And when the um leader of the opposition was in here, he he defecated not the dog defecated on
00:01:44
the floor. So, oh, no, no. Look, Kanye's fine. I've told him it's the prime
00:01:49
minister, so we need some decor. I think I saying to you, like, um, Anthony Albanesey's dog, Toto, goes everywhere
00:01:54
with him. Uh, and, uh, so I've got to know Toto pretty well over the last year
00:01:59
and a bit. So, um, that's awesome to have you here. Hey, um, I messaged um, your friend John Key, Sir John Key, to
00:02:05
say that you were coming in and, uh, did he have any ice breakers? He he replied
00:02:10
saying, "Ask anywhere. ask if he feels his career in Boy Scouts was more glorious
00:02:16
and successful than mine and if so why. No, we were I mean John and Broner are really good friends of Amanda of mine
00:02:23
and it's actually a really special relationship actually because there's
00:02:26
not many people who I'm the 42nd prime minister of New Zealand and there's not
00:02:30
that many of us and it is actually quite special to have one of your best mates who's been been it as well and so um but
00:02:36
we were mates before we I I went into politics and uh so the four of us spend quite a bit of time together but uh I
00:02:43
was Brona was one night talking about her girl guides awards and Amanda was a girl and I was something called boys
00:02:48
brigade which was basically a Presbyterian version of Scouts and Keith didn't he wasn't a member of scouts or
00:02:54
anything and so we just sort of were giving him grief about the lack of badges for cooking and camping and then
00:02:59
Brona brought out her badges and then Amanda brought out her badges and I brought out my badges and just to wind
00:03:04
them up. So um so we we we have a great relationship. They um we typically uh one of us sort of thinks about the
00:03:10
dinner and one of us thinks about the movie to watch and we try and catch up on Saturday nights or go for a walk
00:03:15
together on Sunday mornings. So when did you become friends? Was it during your tenure at a New Zealand or I I'd come
00:03:20
back from New York about 2011 uh and obviously coming back home to New Zealand after 16 years away where I'd
00:03:26
left as a 24 year old and and came back home and uh I got to meet John actually probably in the first couple of months
00:03:33
when I'd come back from New York and I actually hadn't taken over from Rob
00:03:36
Feifer's Air New Zealand the CEO then I was in a process and uh we first met
00:03:41
then and then I got to know him obviously as CEO and um we both sort of have pretty similar stories come from
00:03:46
Christ church. Um, you know, um, been with our partners for a long time and met as at at high school. Yeah. Very
00:03:53
similar story overseas, back again. And we got similar sense of humor, similar temperaments in terms of pretty even and
00:03:59
consistent. And um, we just he and I used to talk sort of typically very late at night. both worked long hours and um
00:04:05
we would sort of catch up and shoot the breeze and I just became very good friends um before and then I I'd always
00:04:11
thought I'd code a politics at some point in my life but I always wanted to go off and do something else before I
00:04:16
came to it and so um yeah so yeah it sort of worked out in the way that it did but it's lovely to have that
00:04:22
relationship and we don't actually talk or we're mates first and you know
00:04:26
politics is second so um you things we'll be we'll disagree on and um have
00:04:30
different you know views on I'm sure but We don't actually discuss that stuff,
00:04:34
you know, we sort of we we have our own friendship and then our wives have got to become really good friends as well
00:04:39
and and the four of you when you get a couple's relationship that actually works with all four actually, you know,
00:04:44
Brian and I, you know, it's it's great. It's great. So, we can holiday together
00:04:47
and it's all great. So, uh he he also said and does he have any proof that in
00:04:52
the history of owning of ownership he has ever caught a fish on a Sea Legs boat? Ceilings is one of those
00:04:57
amphibious ones, aren't you? Drive down to the Yeah. I um I I Yeah. Well, and at
00:05:03
New Zealand, I decided I'd buy a house on W Hickeyi is a bit of a you know, holiday place. And um but it was it was
00:05:08
at a stage in life where actually my kids hadn't got their driver's licenses.
00:05:12
So you still, you know, they're busy on the weekends and they still needing transportation and you're already a
00:05:16
glorified taxi driver. And so I never really got to use it much. And then um I got then I took on this new job and you
00:05:22
work weekends and 24/7 basically. So, I don't get there very often. But, I've
00:05:25
got a Sea Legs boat, like a um like a 20ft Sea Legs boat. And uh Amanda and I go out and fish together, so that's what
00:05:31
we like doing. It's just our time to chitchat and talk stuff through and you
00:05:34
know, um and we don't use live bait. We just have these big orange eyes. It's
00:05:38
pretty simple fishing. But, no, we Yeah, there there's good snapper, so we catch
00:05:41
we get one or two snapper and that's all we need. But no, no, I think he's wrong
00:05:45
about that cuz he's just like he's just full of it actually. But the thing that
00:05:48
he does is you go over to his house for, you know, dinner and stuff and, you know, he pulls out very expensive French
00:05:54
wines. I don't drink alcohol, right? Never have in my whole life. And um for
00:05:58
different reasons, but uh as a result, he'll bring out different versions of
00:06:02
Pepsi and say, "This is a great class of Pepsi from 2015." And no, so we have
00:06:06
different tastes in that regard, but um but no, no, I do catch fish. I think that's wrong of him to say that. Yeah,
00:06:11
you're um yeah, you're a Pepsi guy, eh? Pepsi Max. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I am. Just
00:06:15
because um is that your only advice? No. No. Well, there's there's probably a lot
00:06:18
of them, but um Pepsi, I just sort of I don't actually I yeah, I don't actually
00:06:23
demand Pepsi or anything. It's it's got it's a bit of a problem when you're
00:06:26
prime minister cuz people say, "What do you want?" You say, "Oh, do you have
00:06:28
Pepsi Max or something?" And then all of a sudden you think you're whispering and
00:06:31
you end up looks like you're shouting. And so people then say, "Oh, he's only
00:06:34
he only ever must have, you know, green M&M's and Pepsi Max and all these riders
00:06:39
and stuff." And it's not the case at all. But no, I'm I lived in Canada for a
00:06:42
bit and that was a Pepsi market. So I sort of got into Pepsi Max. cuz I'm I'm
00:06:45
Coke specific. Back back in the day when when KFC was a PepsiCo uh outfit, I I'd
00:06:51
um I'd get my KFC then go to the dairy around the corner and get a Coke. Like
00:06:54
I'm that Oh, you're that particular. If I go to a cafe and So you could taste
00:06:57
the difference between Coke and a Pepsi. Could you? Yeah. Yeah, I think I can too. Yeah. So you Yeah. So you're a
00:07:02
Pepsi guy. No coffee. Yeah. No alcohol. No. And no alcohol. And you've never
00:07:07
touched a drop of alcohol. Yeah. Know it's really weird. People will often say
00:07:10
to me, you know, oh, is that a religious thing or something like that's got nothing to do with that? I um It's your
00:07:15
granddad, right? Yeah. Yeah. My granddad uh great man, but you know, um flawed like all of us. And um you know, he had
00:07:22
a problem with alcohol really. He was um a groundsman at Hegley Hegley Oval in um
00:07:27
Christ Church. Um you know, the basically mowed the lawns and did that stuff. My father's the oldest of five
00:07:32
boys. Incredible guy really. Um love my dad because he changed the course of parenting in our family really. But I
00:07:37
just remember as a young chap spending time with my granddad and um you know in the August school holidays and just
00:07:42
seeing him out of control and I obviously decided as a seven or an 8-year-old 8 8 nyear-old that that was
00:07:47
sort of something that you was that half G that made him go a bit funny and um and for some reason I decided then and
00:07:53
there that that wasn't something I was doing and I've never never done it. Now,
00:07:56
I went to quite traditional boy schools. I got a lot of mates, but I was always the sober driver and I was always
00:08:01
invited and everyone just arranged alternatives for me. And um but so no, I've never drunk alcohol at all. And um
00:08:07
but it's just genuinely I can't explain it when my mom and dad, you know, um and
00:08:11
my brothers, you know, they do, but I just never have. So um so yeah, so it's
00:08:15
an odd, you know, it's an interesting one when you sort of go back and explore
00:08:18
where did that come from or why did you make that decision consciously or or or unconsciously? And for me it was clearly
00:08:24
um you know seeing him out of control at times and just deciding that's not something that I want to do. It's a it's
00:08:30
a clear parallel with um Trump and yourself because he he's never touched a drop either and his brother um died of
00:08:36
alcoholism. So it's the same sort of thing. So he decided never to touch it.
00:08:39
But you you and I are similar age that must have been um I feel like there's a
00:08:42
greater understanding and awareness and appreciation of sobriety now and the harm that alcohol causes. But um back in
00:08:48
the back in the ' 90s like being at varsity there must have been a fair bit of peer pressure. Yeah, I was quite
00:08:52
lucky. I'm I'm a big extrovert, so I always had a lot of friends and you
00:08:56
know, and people just understood that's just how I was. And so, you know, they
00:08:59
just arranged orange juice or uh or soft drinks for me when uh when I go I go all
00:09:03
the parties, but there's just a point when everyone got completely incoherent
00:09:07
and I remember everything obviously and uh and there's a point when you go, okay, I think we uh it might be time to
00:09:12
head home now about midnight. So, um uh but no, all my friends were really decent with it. But yeah, you're right.
00:09:18
I mean at that era when we came through it was there was a lot more peer pressure a um and it's interesting
00:09:23
because a lot of my friends now in their late 40s you know early 50s have decided
00:09:27
for different reasons to actually say hey listen this is something I'm going
00:09:30
to this isn't good for me and um and it's not that it's not you know not
00:09:33
can't be managed it's just that they've either decided they're not their best
00:09:36
selves actually when they when they're impaired like that and so it's interesting I've had a number of friends
00:09:40
come come actually in their late 40s and 50s come to the same decision that I came to probably a bit younger but
00:09:47
how did you get how Did you make that decision yourself or where are you at? Well, I I still drink, but I'm I'm very
00:09:52
um mindful of um my intake these days. Um but yeah, similar sort of thing like all the all my uncles I'm from a very
00:09:58
big Christian family. All my uncles my granddad had a bar downstairs in his basement and would go down there and
00:10:02
congregate from a young age. Dad would let me drink the froth on the beer. I I understand that was not a a good deal.
00:10:08
Um but we were just always surrounded by it. But rather than put me off, I I sort
00:10:12
of I I to me I suppose it's what it meant to be a man. Yeah. To drink alcohol, which is um incorrect. And you
00:10:17
you I was quite lucky cuz I think um what happened for me was that I'd obviously
00:10:23
had that experience where I' i'd spend my school holidays often with my grandparents and at that time my family
00:10:28
was living in Oakland. We're born in Christ Church, lived there for my first
00:10:31
seven years, moved up to how in Oakuckland um was here for about 9 or 10 years and moved back to Christ Church.
00:10:36
So we were up here and I'd go down for August school holidays and spend time
00:10:39
with nan and granddad and uh on both sides of my family. But my dad was really a real he's he's really my hero
00:10:45
because he sort of really um you know we came from a background where um you know
00:10:51
there's just a lot of interaction with the criminal justice system when you go
00:10:54
back through look at our family history uh and yeah well I mean I studied family
00:10:59
I I really got into my family history and a bit of genealogy you know probably 10 15 years ago and actually probably
00:11:06
for some time and uh you go back through the newspapers of yesterday year and there's an awful lot of Luxons making
00:11:11
appearances at courts and jail time and stuff like that and being general nuisances. But my dad was really quite a
00:11:16
good guy because he sort of changed the course of parenting in my family, you know, like and being being a good father
00:11:22
and stuff and being really intentional and very purposeful about that. And I really admired that because he had come
00:11:27
from pretty challenging circumstances and obviously determined he wanted to do it differently and um you set a great
00:11:33
example to me and my two brothers as well cuz you know I'm the oldest of three boys. So, you know, he mom and dad
00:11:38
actually I remember when we were growing up, you know, really alcohol wasn't
00:11:41
really prevalent when we were young chaps and then um but you know, they obviously, you know, um love their wines
00:11:46
as did my brothers as well. Well, let's let's talk about the early years. So, so
00:11:50
I've got a photo of you and this is something you and I had in common. I had
00:11:52
a cruiser as well. Um I'm actually on trade I'm on trade me trying to buy one of those things at the
00:11:58
moment actually just for for sentimental reasons actually. I don't know whether
00:12:01
you find that as well as you get older you sort of get bit sentimental about that stuff. My brother had the HMX 500,
00:12:07
which was the yellow BMX, which was pretty cool. And this this bike's quite interesting because it actually was
00:12:13
again my dad because he said to me, "Chris, look, um, I've been saving up
00:12:16
for a bike. I was about 10 when I got my my first two-wheeler." And, um, he said,
00:12:21
"Uh, yeah, I'll tell you what. You know, what sort of bike do you think you'd
00:12:23
like?" And I said, "You know, probably a Rally 20 or a Heeling Cruiser with the
00:12:26
3-speed with the gear shift on the handlebar." And he said, "Okay, I'll
00:12:30
tell you what. you're going to go around and just call up uh in those days we had
00:12:34
classified ads for people listening they wouldn't know what the hell we're
00:12:36
talking about but um the newspaper would come with classified ads and you'd look
00:12:39
up and every Saturday morning you get the big paper and you'd go through and
00:12:42
find the healing cruiser and so I had to call for three weekends in a row I could
00:12:46
just call people who had healing cruisers for sale and and dad it was a sales guy and he taught me to say so sir
00:12:51
um you know I see you've got a healing cruiser for sale uh you know uh what color is it? Oh it's green or it's blue.
00:12:55
Okay, are there any is the paint in good condition or not? What's the tread like
00:12:59
on the tires? um does it come with any extras like a dynamo which was a light that was attached to the wheel of a bike
00:13:05
um you know what kind of mud cars so dad made me go through the whole palava and
00:13:08
he said right we'll go out and we'll spend your $100 that you've saved up to
00:13:11
buy the secondhand bike and it taught me a lot about valuing money obviously and
00:13:17
and value and and also how to you know to negotiate and to do all those sorts of things and and it's interesting then
00:13:23
you fast forward with your own kids and of course you're in a different financial situation and it's easier just
00:13:28
to go down and buy the bike and you know from the warehouse or whatever you need
00:13:31
to do. Uh and so how do you transfer those values that my dad was teaching me of how to buy a bike which was actually
00:13:38
a precursor to how to buy a car and how to buy a house and teach me those sorts of things. Um how do you transfer that
00:13:43
to your kids uh when your values you want to teach those values but you actually have different you know you
00:13:48
know financial circumstances or conditions that you're in. So no I love that bike and from there I got my paper
00:13:53
round and we're away. Did you have a cruiser as well? Yeah I wanted a BMX. No, mate. They were wanted me to give me
00:13:58
a sensible bike. Yeah. My brother got the um Rally 20, but then he got an HMX 600 and then the HMX 500. And that was
00:14:05
Healing, which was a New Zealand bike company a that made bikes in the late '7s, early 80s. It was pretty cool. So,
00:14:12
that's one photo. That's cool. Who Who was um Christopher Lux as a kid? What
00:14:15
What was the most trouble you got in? Not a lot of trouble. I got into a little bit more trouble in um in sort of
00:14:21
early high school, third, fourth fourth form probably. you know was that troublesome year between school suit as
00:14:26
it was and after you started third form by what uh they the rain the French bombed the rainbow warrior if you
00:14:31
remember in 1985 uh 8485 was it and um I remember I was in French class I didn't
00:14:38
really like French uh that much and I just thought we'd have a boycott of French as a result of all of that um at
00:14:43
Howard College uh so that was probably not the that was probably as you know as far as I sort of went at that point so
00:14:48
but I was pretty well behaved um pretty um I mean I was the old I was born My parents were young, you know, they were
00:14:54
21, 22 when I was born. They had left school at 15, 16. Um, they're awesome parents, amazing people. Um, my mom went
00:15:02
on to become a therapist and a counselor and stuff. Um, I actually got her to come to university when I'd got to
00:15:07
university. But I was a pretty, you know, I I'm a big extrovert, so I get a lot of energy from being around people.
00:15:13
Um, and so that's always been the case. It's how I process by talking and and
00:15:18
meeting with people. Um um and yeah, I just pretty pretty Yeah, pretty pretty well behaved oldest child, I guess.
00:15:26
Well, you you must have been a bully at some point to your younger siblings. It's a right of passage, isn't it? Yeah.
00:15:30
Well, we were actually really close and my parents did a very good job. So, I'm
00:15:33
the oldest of three boys, right? Christopher, Carl, and Matthew. And um we're all quite close in ages, probably
00:15:38
three of us under the age of five. And but actually, we were taught that we all had different skills. And mom and dad
00:15:44
were actually, you know, said, you know, you're different, but you're equal. And
00:15:47
so I was, you know, good at sport and and liked um school and study and stuff like that. Carl's incredibly creative
00:15:53
and, you know, uber smart. Uh and Matthew awesome people person and um you know, has gone into big environmental
00:15:59
spaces and stuff like that. Um, so we were raised to sort of really respect each other's differences and and my mom
00:16:05
was really thoughtful about that stuff and there were different times when actually we're all at different schools
00:16:10
because mom and dad were trying to match the school to the kid, you know, to make
00:16:14
sure that we were sort of um and I was one of those kids that was going to be fine anywhere I kind of went. Um, then
00:16:19
the brother Carl at one point he needed a bit more external discipline and you know he needed something different. So
00:16:24
um, so it was all good. So, we were raised we're really tight and um and in fact it's interesting because we all
00:16:30
left home at the same time. All three of us left home and we never went back and
00:16:34
so mom and dad at 44 uh had no kids at home. We' all left and we never never
00:16:38
came home. And so the three of us then went uh our sort of individual ways building our careers and Matthew, the
00:16:45
youngest, was overseas for a bit. I was obviously overseas for 16 years. Carl was building his career here in New
00:16:49
Zealand and hospitality and hotels and things. But every time I came home um every year we'd go to devotional
00:16:56
campground and just out of Christ Church uh on the road to Akaroa. And we also worked quite hard to make sure that just
00:17:03
the three of us had time without our partners and without our kids just to build new experiences together because
00:17:08
often for guys it's the shared experiences of the things we've done together that builds the relationship.
00:17:13
And a lot of our reference was obviously when we're at home and all the crazy
00:17:16
stuff we got up to there. But as adults and as people that you know, how do you feed and keep feeding that relationship
00:17:22
as you as you move through your 20s and 30s and you're actually living apart
00:17:26
from each other? And it's one of the great joys of my life now is, you know,
00:17:29
that I get to I talk to my brothers probably, you know, once or twice a week, you know. Wow. Yeah. Mom and dad
00:17:34
every day, every second day. Um so we're really tight family. Yeah. Yeah. So, so
00:17:39
if I've got the um calculations correct, your your parents are still younger than
00:17:42
the deputy prime minister and younger than the previous two American presidents. Yeah. Yeah, they are. So,
00:17:48
mom and dad are um 76. Uh yeah, 70. Yeah, 76. Yeah. Yeah. Your mom Your mom sound Kathleen. She sounds amazing. When
00:17:56
When did you last have some bacon and egg pie? Uh not that. Uh actually, I haven't had bacon egg pie from her for a
00:18:02
while, but she makes some mean bacon and egg pie, but obviously spoke to her on on Mother's Day on Sunday and uh due to
00:18:07
talk to her later on this afternoon. But mom's really cool. Yeah. So dad was
00:18:11
really came from a pretty tough background and um really became as I said I remember writing him a letter
00:18:16
actually when I was 30 about just thanking him for changing the course of I I called it a river of how he changed
00:18:22
the and bent the river sort of to change the course of parenting in our family as
00:18:25
a dad and my mom's amazing as well she left school at 15 uh ended up um but very intuitive really good you know big
00:18:33
feeling person very thoughtful very smart and I got to university and I was the first ever to go to university in my
00:18:38
family I didn't know anyone who had been to university um really and I got there
00:18:43
and I was in my second or third year and I said to mom you you should come to university mom you'd be awesome and um
00:18:49
and so she came to University of Canterbury when I was there I think and just as I was finishing up uh and she uh
00:18:55
did a diploma in social work and then she's gone on to become a really outstanding you know therapist counselor
00:19:03
um and and she always had that orientation she always read a lot you know as I was growing up as a kid and um
00:19:09
was really thoughtful about that stuff. And yeah, she's amazing. I mean, even
00:19:12
today, you know, at 76, she supervises a whole range of counselors and has some of her own private clients still today.
00:19:18
But as a result, I I was really privileged because I grew up in a family where my father was uh had worked from
00:19:24
the bottom up, you know, and had worked really hard to become a sales rep and then a sales manager, worked for a
00:19:28
company called Johnson and Johnson. Yeah. And then my mom had, you know, sort of been very interested in sort of,
00:19:35
you know, psychology and and personalities and and all that sort of thing. And so I sort of felt I got a
00:19:41
good uh upbringing in terms of, you know, sort of both the soft and the hard and sort of I think it she they were
00:19:48
very determined to build good EQ skills for what you'd call it today uh into
00:19:51
into us. And um I think that served me incredibly well. The mom was always of the of the view which was I remember
00:19:57
saying to me as a little chat, you know, walk across the room and find someone different from you and and talk to them.
00:20:02
And I I remember saying the same thing to my kids when I was parenting as well because, you know, it was like, you
00:20:07
know, schools can be very clicky and and you said even more so, I think, in this
00:20:11
day and age. And I said to Olivia, you know, you got to be Switzerland, you know, you got to be friendly with
00:20:15
everybody, you know, and um and you find that kid that sort of is a bit lost and
00:20:19
go go say hello and and you never know what's going to happen when you do that.
00:20:22
So, um, yeah, I think mom, you know, really got me thinking about people and care of people. And dad was, you know,
00:20:29
just a born optimist, you know, just don't let your circumstances define who
00:20:33
you are and where you're going and what you're about. So, um, and so that
00:20:36
combination was pretty special to be invested in me really. H how do they how do they cope with I mean, it's a surreal
00:20:43
position, your son growing up to be the prime minister of the country. How do they cope with um like the criticism?
00:20:48
Uh, I'm just thinking of my mom. Like my mom is she's my biggest cheerleader.
00:20:51
Like same. She's super supportive. So when when people are calling you like bland or boring or whatever, like I
00:20:57
think that's really hard. Well, they call us a lot worse than that. Let's be
00:21:00
honest about it. Um, but mom the first time sort of I guess I I cuz I'd left
00:21:05
home at I left New Zealand at 24. Amanda and I had met at 15 um and we were away
00:21:10
overseas. And then I came back and obviously took on the New Zealand job which had more public profile I guess in
00:21:15
New Zealand um than most CEO jobs. And then when I came into politics, I remember mom had read the first article
00:21:21
and I think when the Herald and she said, "Oh gee, they don't like you that
00:21:24
much." I said, "Mom, what do you mean?" I said the article was okay. She said,
00:21:27
"Oh, I read all the comment section. I said, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:21:30
Please don't do that. They ain't going to like your little boy." So like, let's
00:21:33
just be really clear about this. Uh so um I think it's really difficult for them. I think it's actually in some ways
00:21:38
harder for them than it is and family than it is for me personally going through the experience and I'm sure you
00:21:44
know Chris Hipkins and John Key and Justinda would say similar things but it is you know you you do life with these
00:21:50
family and friends that actually love you because of who you are not because of what you do. Um and also you know
00:21:56
they they take a lot of the the you know the bruising from the criticism as well.
00:22:00
and and if you're not if you're not in the political world um you know which my
00:22:04
parents aren't they're just really decent good people who um you know tried
00:22:08
to raise a great family and and help people um you know some of that can be quite quite challenging so I think
00:22:14
they've all learned coping mechanisms for actually you know not making it personal um and that's what I've had to
00:22:20
do and that's what you know the family does as well yeah from what I can gather you've had
00:22:25
very few jobs in your career c can I try and do them from current to okay So, um,
00:22:30
politics, y uh, airline boss. Yeah. Uh, unilver for various roles for 17 years. 16 years. 16 years. Um, porter at Crown
00:22:40
Plaza. Yeah. Park Park Royal Hotel Crush. Um, three years at McDonald's. Yeah. And And um a neighborhood window
00:22:48
washing business at 12. Yeah. Yeah. Is that the lot? Yeah. That's pretty much
00:22:52
it. I mean, it's um it's been interesting actually my career because Yeah. As I said, my dad was a real um
00:22:58
positivity kind of guy, you know. I remember he I read a book called Life is Tremendous by Charlie Tremendous Jones
00:23:04
and he would have given it to all the sales reps and I must have been about 12 or 13. And so I was always encouraged to
00:23:09
do like entrepreneurial things. So I had a lot of things on the go as a kid through you know my teenage life. I was
00:23:14
a I had a professional window cleaning round. I had um a fence painting, roof painting and deck painting business
00:23:19
here. Um I traded Commando War magazines. You might remember those. Remember remember those. an intermediate
00:23:26
age. We we had those and uh and so I I was just doing lots of stuff like that. I had an artificial flower business that
00:23:33
I would you know that would get people would contract for a monthly service and flower arrangers would come and go all
00:23:38
through university and I was I I learned to um I I was sort of learned to take responsibility for financial things
00:23:44
pretty early on and um so yeah that was it and I obviously worked at McDonald's
00:23:49
which I loved and in Christ Church when it came to town it was a big deal and then I worked at the porter as a porter
00:23:54
at the park rail but a lot of it was people stuff right I love people and as an extrovert sort of engaging with that
00:23:59
and then I went to university, did a three-year BCOM, and then I got asked I got into a one-year masters of commerce
00:24:05
and business administration and halfway through that year, I got recruited by this company called Uni Lever, which one
00:24:10
of the biggest companies in the world as on their management trainee program. And
00:24:14
so I came out of that with after my four years with the two degrees and joined Unilver and um it was an amazing place
00:24:21
for a kid from Christ Church you know because um they then you know uh I joined the graduate program which was
00:24:28
you did a lot of psych testing and leadership development and investment happened over that period of time and so
00:24:34
I then got into you know a global pool of talent and that was what led me then moving around the world. So I had two
00:24:39
years here in New Zealand, 5 years in Sydney, and then time in London, Chicago, Toronto, and New York. And I
00:24:46
love that place cuz it was one of the big global companies of the world. You got to travel all over the place. I
00:24:50
probably visited every country. Um I was doing a global job while I was also trying to run bits of the American
00:24:56
business or uh Asian business. And so it was just a really very stimulating environment and a great educational
00:25:02
environment really. Are you still brand loyal now? What deodorant are you wearing today? Uh, today I'm still
00:25:07
wearing my Rexana deodorant and my Yep. Yeah, exactly. Can you Can you use my Dove body wash this morning? Why Why is
00:25:14
there so little deodorant in the in the bottles you buy? Oh, I can't I I can't I
00:25:19
don't know where that's what they call shrinkflation, isn't it? Right. Over
00:25:22
inflation. They sort of do that. But, um, the weirdest thing was I ended up running sort of, you know, being
00:25:26
responsible for hair care companies. And when you look like me, I mean, and you and you rocking to Tony and Guy and, uh,
00:25:31
I think we bought the Tony and Guy business as well. And it's sort of like you end up paying a lot more for the
00:25:36
businesses because you sort of they think you're going to just destroy value, you know, cuz it's like you got
00:25:41
you got this bull guy showing us we can do wonderful things with your hair care company if you let us buy it off you.
00:25:45
But um but honestly for a kid from New Zealand to be able to uh it got me very globally oriented, which I was what I
00:25:52
was always wanting to do. And so for me actually a lot of what I learned at unilver uh people probably don't realize
00:25:57
but it's very helpful in the roles that I do now on the international front connecting with world leaders or going
00:26:03
to countries. So when I I was probably I think I probably came to the job of prime minister one of the prime
00:26:09
ministers that knew the world the best because I sort of had worked for one of the big global multinational companies
00:26:13
and I had been to India multiple times. I've been to, you know, Manila multiple
00:26:18
times and uh China many many times and so I understand those markets and I understand the countries pretty well and
00:26:25
um I used to do things like cuz I traveled probably internationally every week um for a long period of time. Um,
00:26:31
one is that I would sort of get to a country and I had a rule which was you I'd go from the airport and I'd go
00:26:36
straight to someone's house, a consumer's house and I'd have 2 hours of
00:26:40
a conversation that I could talk about anything I wanted to talk about um to try and understand what was happening
00:26:45
for people in those countries. And so I remember flying into Russia um and Moscow and going to an apartment and
00:26:51
meeting with a couple there and I could talk to them before I met anybody from the business, you know, before because
00:26:57
they were often wealthy expatriots and living a different life from what you felt the people were living. And that
00:27:02
way I didn't just bounce around the world, you know, staying in a Hilton hotel that was the same whether it was
00:27:07
in Bangkok or or America or or Argentina or somewhere. Um so I think, you know, that part of being a part of a global
00:27:13
business like that was really great. Um you learned lots around lots of different you know parts of business
00:27:19
obviously and different businesses that you were responsible for but that needed
00:27:22
turnaround sorting out cleaning up mix you know growth but the most incredible thing was you work with some really
00:27:28
smart people and so you learn a lot of people skills as well and actually what I learned in life was it's not actually
00:27:34
your book smarts that really determine how far you go. It's actually are you
00:27:38
curious about learning new things? Can you deal with conflict? Um can you communicate effectively? Uh, and do you
00:27:44
have good character? And those are the things that ultimately determine, you know, how high people go ultimately.
00:27:50
You mentioned your your hair or lack of just a second ago. I've I've got a photo
00:27:54
here of you at McDonald's. It's a fabulous fabulous hair. Um, this might
00:27:58
seem like a great trip down memory lane. It's awesome. This this might seem like
00:28:01
a silly question, but um, it's a serious question for me cuz I've got I've got a
00:28:05
few friends that are bored and a couple of them are still in their 40s and they won't be seen without a baseball cap.
00:28:09
Yeah, I've got a mate who's um a good-look fit dude and he's been bored
00:28:12
and I never thought anything of it, but he went to Turkey last year to get a hair transplant. I've seen that mate on
00:28:17
YouTube transformed his life between the veneers and the hair transplants. Yeah.
00:28:20
Yeah. What was your relationship like with losing your hair? Oh, it was just like let's embrace it. You know, there's
00:28:25
not much you can do about it. It's pure genetics. Um let's go for it. And so, um
00:28:29
you know, you know, in your head you think, well, Jason Staithm, he's a good-looking bull dude. You know, Joe
00:28:34
Rogan. Yeah, Joe Rogan. You know, there's plenty of us now. I'm doing this job for the bald men of
00:28:40
New Zealand, showing what's possible. We can't all be male models like yourself
00:28:44
with a full head of hair. But um but no, like I mean um look, it wasn't I mean it
00:28:49
was just something I just you know you just have to embrace and go with it, right? It is what it is. And so um uh
00:28:54
but you funny you funny you say that I was going through Turkey after coming back from Gallipoli and I passed through
00:28:58
Istanbul to meet with the president of Turkey and I um yeah I real didn't realize man there's a whole new um
00:29:04
cosmetic tourism industry that's coming out of Turkey that's got some pretty
00:29:08
cool looks going on. It's massive. Yeah. When I went there the hotel the hotel
00:29:11
buffet in the morning dudes everywhere with bands on and like blood coming out of their paws. I reckon you might Yeah.
00:29:18
It would have been quite funny if I'd come back from Turkey uh like that. I walked into cabinet the next week and
00:29:23
gone, "Hi guys, good to see you again." Imagine that. Um, I've got another photo
00:29:28
for you. Um, it's yourself and that's awesome. So, um, best decision I ever
00:29:33
made. Yeah. So, what's the So, you I've read various stories. So, you you're 15
00:29:38
and she's 17 when you met. Um, I've heard it was a church youth group thing.
00:29:44
Belong to a big church youth group and we had a lot of friends. you know, 60 70 kids there and we had a progressive
00:29:48
what's called in the old days had this thing called progressive dinner and so
00:29:51
you go around different kids' parents' houses and um you know you'd have a a
00:29:55
main course an entree dessert you know whatever snacks food so we were on a car rally and it was a sort of a car rally
00:30:02
where you had to sort of answer questions and quizzes and stuff like that and we just moved back from Oakland
00:30:06
to Christ Church um and I got to meet Amanda through that and you know we met when we were 15 we really became really
00:30:12
good friends with a big group of kids and yeah I actually think that's important for kids to have quite wide
00:30:18
circles of friends. I my kids were pretty much the same. And um we started dating at 19, married at 23, and then
00:30:24
did life the rest of life together. And honestly, best decision I'll ever make.
00:30:28
You know, greatest privilege of my life being married to Manda. When when um so you knew each other for four years as
00:30:34
friends before you got together as a couple. Did you did you have a crush on her? Were you in love with her during
00:30:40
that time? I mean, yeah, I mean, we just we were friends first, you know, sort of. And um but yeah, obviously I thought
00:30:46
she was stunning. Yeah. And uh and you know, we went to you we're partnering
00:30:50
with each other at school balls and or actually her teachers college ball. She was she's 2 years older than me, but
00:30:55
she's also left school at six form, went straight to university from the six
00:30:58
form. So I was actually three years ahead of me at at um academically and stuff. And so um yeah, to this day she
00:31:04
uh is still a bit upset that I didn't invite her as my date to my school ball,
00:31:08
but I went to her teachers college ball was her her date. So um but no you know that that without doubt is sort of the
00:31:14
the thing that I think you know Amanda's my rock really in terms of we've you
00:31:18
know done life together with all its ups and downs and you know obviously we have
00:31:23
both come from pretty similar backgrounds and family wise and our parents have subsequently got to know
00:31:28
each other well and are good friends and that's been you know great for us raising our kids uh to have their both
00:31:33
grandparents you know in relationships with each other too but you know we left we left New Zealand as I said when I was
00:31:38
24 and um you know we went and had you know William was born in Sydney and Olivia was born in London and the kids
00:31:43
were really raised in Chicago and um you know you have to get really tight you know as a couple of how do you do I had
00:31:50
quite extreme jobs at a young age I had big jobs at a young age she also was an outstanding teacher um and then became a
00:31:57
really great consultant working with MyersBriggs and conflict management with boards and teams and all that sort of
00:32:03
skill set and is just really smart and so you know there were times when for her to carry on with her consulting I
00:32:10
was in a stable place and able to do all the school run and stuff like that and she could do more of that. But she's
00:32:15
been awesome on this whole journey of that we've been on together. So, um, yeah, it's pretty awesome really. I
00:32:21
mean, really amazing. Was the proposal anything special? What did you What did you do? Um, I actually for three of the
00:32:27
four years we were dating, we were in different cities, you know, so actually made our communication skills get really
00:32:32
tight. And it sounds, you know, we were young and um but actually we I think both had our heads, you know, on screwed
00:32:38
on pretty well and sort of, you know, wanted to get, you know, good at that. So, no, I came down to Christ Church. I
00:32:42
remember uh going out to the garage to ask Tom, her dad, who had recently just said I could call, stop calling him Mr.
00:32:48
Ray, and call him Tom, which I didn't mean, so I didn't call him anything for
00:32:50
a year cuz I was too embarrassed to call him anything. And then I went out to the
00:32:53
garage to sort of ask for formal permission to marry his daughter. And I remember there was a guy Ray who was his
00:32:58
neighbor who was over in his basically his his tight shorts and his um tank top and he was talking to Tom and I got too
00:33:04
nervous to ask Tom formally for permission and you know just it was a standard uh proposal at a at a
00:33:08
restaurant in Christ Church which was pretty cool. And did you did you save yourselves for marriage? Well, I mean we
00:33:13
um yeah we were very committed to each other. Yeah. And so that's been our you
00:33:17
know we we basically I wanted to make sure when I go into a relationship with someone I want to do it for life and
00:33:21
that was Amanda for me. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. What what's the biggest
00:33:25
argument or conflict you guys have had? We don't we don't actually have huge
00:33:29
Barney, you know, like it's actually interesting. You know, our personalities
00:33:32
are such that we sort of, you know, Amanda's probably more of an introvert. She needs to get up in the morning, do a
00:33:38
12k run, come back, do her fitness stuff, and um and that's how she processes. She's a very gregarious
00:33:44
introvert, I'd say, is how I'd describe it. Um but no, we tend to process along
00:33:49
the way. So, you know, if we've got irritants with each other or issues with
00:33:52
each other, we we just openly just talk about before before the end of a day. And um I was lucky I I had awesome
00:33:58
grandparents who, you know, on my mom's side who were married for a very long
00:34:02
time, you know, I think 60 something years. Uh my parents been married for, you know, 55 years. So, we had good
00:34:07
models of parenting uh and and and relationships. But no, we our issues are are very small in the scheme of things.
00:34:14
Um and if we do, we we just sit down and talk it out. We we've done things ever
00:34:18
since we were actually dating. We would, you know, we would actually just go on walks and just talk about, you know, how
00:34:24
we want things to be. You know, every Christmas we'd come home to New Zealand.
00:34:29
The mom and dad would take the kids. Um we we'd check into a hotel for two or
00:34:32
three days and actually just spend the time thinking about what our year ahead looks like, what we need from each
00:34:37
other, what we're going to do with the kids. And for people listening, they go,
00:34:40
"Gee, this sounds very very planned and organized." And it's just life just carries on, right? And
00:34:47
you often don't get to stop and say, "Hey, listen. Are we good? Are we okay?
00:34:51
What's going on for you? How are you handling this? What do I need to do to support you this year? Where are our
00:34:55
kids at? What do I think we need to focus on this coming year with each of them? Um, what are we doing well? What
00:35:00
do we not what do we need to step up um and and do better?" So, that's the way
00:35:05
we kind of operate. And it probably sounds odd for people listening, but it's just what's been what's made it
00:35:09
work for us. Um it seems odd but in in the best possible way like it's all stuff that
00:35:14
takes effort. It and if you got a busy job and you come home and you're tired
00:35:18
often the last thing you want to do is communicate. I I I agree and I think you know I learned that um I worked for a
00:35:23
lot of very senior folk um in my career and I had big jobs early and I remember talking to a guy came to see me in
00:35:29
Toronto once and he was like you know early 50s and he said uh Chris I'm life's not good. And I said what's going
00:35:35
on mate? And he says well I'm working 80 to 100 hours a week. He says I'm going
00:35:39
home. I'm really grumpy with my partner and my my kids. I'm tired and I'm
00:35:44
fatigued all the time and life's not good. And so we talked about it, you know, and what I've learned is it's
00:35:49
actually about energy management, you know, and I always believe, you know, you've got to get connected to you, you
00:35:55
need mental stimulation, you know, that's often your job. Uh you need obviously physical, you know, uh keep
00:36:00
yourself healthy. You need social stimulation and and whether it's spiritual or purpose or something that's
00:36:06
connected. And when you get out of whack and get stressed, it's because you're
00:36:08
overworking one of those four energy types, you know, and you've actually got
00:36:12
to try and stay really balanced across the whole piece of it. And it's hard,
00:36:15
you know, cuz life's complex and life is hard, you know, and um and so for us,
00:36:20
that's what that check-in is really about, you know. um uh you know you can get over exercised where you get very
00:36:26
connected to your work and you get into work you know just work mode all the time and you don't allow yourself
00:36:32
moments to refresh and recharge and to to put stuff into the bottle when you're
00:36:36
giving out a lot. Um so for me you know I've always been I learned that from
00:36:40
Steven Kovi reading books when I was very young at 17. you know, how do you how do you manage energy as much as time
00:36:46
is really important? And that's a lot of what our conversations are about is
00:36:50
okay, well, which which people are we going to invest in our relationships this year that, you know, that we, you
00:36:54
know, are good friends that we need to, you know, take to a deeper level. What what are the what what what do I man
00:37:00
often afflicting me around my physical exercise because I love exercise. We used to do a lot of it together and then
00:37:05
now with my job, it's been the one thing I've actually struggled to sort of get
00:37:08
integrated, you know. I mean, you're um you're a you're a you're a you're a
00:37:12
brisk walker. You're like I've not have you notic a very very quick cadence when
00:37:16
you walk. Like if if you and Biden did a like 100 me walking race, I reckon I'd
00:37:20
be at 25 to 30 m by the time you finish. Yeah. My DPS guys say I walk quick. They
00:37:25
reckon I go 8K an hour. But what is your Do you have like a set morning routine or anything or I used to and that's to
00:37:30
be honest, Dom, that's the one thing I've really struggled with in this job
00:37:33
is my body loves exercise and I personally do as well. Um it's something I really enjoyed. So Amanda and I used
00:37:39
to have, you know, we'd have a trainer come when we lived in North America and,
00:37:42
you know, we'd really fogg ourselves. We have a, you know, little a garage converted into a gym at home. Um, I I
00:37:48
find because my routine's pretty full on, right? So I'm sort of I've always
00:37:52
been up, you know, as a little even as a young chap, you know, at 4:30 in the morning. I then in in a parliamentary
00:37:58
week, I can go through to 12:00 or 1 at night quite often. Um, and I've I'm
00:38:02
fortunate and because I think because I had those global jobs when I was in my, you know, late 20s. Um, and I'm used to
00:38:09
bouncing in and out of time zones and things that I just got used to surviving on very little sleep. And so I've always
00:38:14
been of the view that when I step through that front door at my house, at my home, it's my problem is the jet lag,
00:38:19
the tiredness, the fatigue, any of that. And it's not Amanda's or the kids'
00:38:22
problem. I've got to be on for them. Um, so for me, the then the temptation becomes, well, I want to get up early
00:38:29
and go fogg myself and and um and go for it um in the way that I can at times when I might get a little bit of a break
00:38:34
or a holiday for a week or so. Um but um but then you know actually I also need to get you I'm trying to balance quite a
00:38:41
few things. So it's the one thing that I don't think I've done well enough which
00:38:44
is integrate my um physical exercise and and diet and stuff into into this job. Where's the time though? E where's the
00:38:51
time? It's a full-on job. I mean you probably spoken to you know Chris Hipkins and and you know John Key and
00:38:57
Justinda Adam would say the same thing. I mean it is a unique experience. I mean
00:39:00
you are drinking from a fire hydrant from morning to night. um you can plan as much as you possibly can and I'm
00:39:07
quite I'm a very planned and organized kind of person um and we have pretty good processes around how we operate um
00:39:13
at work at at the office but um equally you've got to allow for margin for things that just come from left field
00:39:20
and and throw you off course and so yeah it's a full-on job and uh that's what I
00:39:24
love about it too you know like it it is and I've always felt it's a life balance
00:39:28
thing you know people talk about this work life balance I've never bought that
00:39:31
I've always thought it's a life balance and It's, you know, I'm doing this right
00:39:35
now. You and I are doing this right now. There'll be a gazillion emails and phone
00:39:38
calls outside. I'm not here multi-purposing trying to do multiple. We This is important. We're going to do
00:39:43
this. We're going to have power of full engagement right now doing this stuff.
00:39:46
So, I think um yeah, it is challenging. You know, there's you you you're under a
00:39:49
huge pressure um all the time. There's just um a content and a volume of stuff
00:39:53
coming at you. If any if decisions were easy, they're made further down the chain. Um but the hard stuff comes your
00:40:00
way typically. So, um, but that's why you want to do the job, right? I mean,
00:40:04
that's why you really want to do the job. You want to be in the arena. You want to be, uh, dealing with those
00:40:09
issues. Um, it's a huge responsibility, but it's a huge privilege. What would, um, your kids, uh, William
00:40:15
and Olivia and your wife M, what would they say your best and worst habits are? Oh, um, I think they would say like I
00:40:22
genuinely think, yeah, like I've I've had extreme jobs, you know, from a very
00:40:26
young age, right? I mean, I've really had like big jobs early and I think they've they would say my kids would say
00:40:31
that they feel that I've always been very present and that I'm around uh for
00:40:35
them. We don't talk politics at home just to give you a feel for what goes on
00:40:39
in that dynamic. My kids, I am their dad. Nothing has changed when I was CEO of New Zealand or prime minister of New
00:40:45
Zealand. Um nothing's changed. I haven't had a deep political conversation with
00:40:48
my kids on any of the topics. They have strong opinions. They'll tell me if they
00:40:51
feel strongly about stuff. Um but for them, I'm just dad and that's been quite
00:40:55
cool. Um but they would say look I think he's been pretty present. Um I'm pretty
00:41:01
um I'm pretty organized and so you know um part of my job as a dad is also to
00:41:06
set ambition and aspiration in my kids as well and so you know it's part of it
00:41:09
is also probably to push them a little bit as well. Um and I think that's important. You know what worst habits
00:41:15
though worst habits? They they know you better than anyone. Oh there's got to be
00:41:21
something. Um, they probably don't appreciate getting sent the the baby videos that I might watch at at 1:30 in
00:41:27
the morning on like videos. Oh, yeah. I'm the algorithms on my social media are just weird, mate. Like, I'm in a
00:41:33
phase where I'm getting sent all this home renovation stuff and DIY stuff and
00:41:37
and hacks at the moment. And so, um, I'll often send my daughter, uh, hacks on sort of things I've discovered on
00:41:43
DIY, um, which she probably doesn't fully appreciate. Um, but the other thing is Olivia and I love music
00:41:50
together. And so ever since she was little, we've always try and exchange song of the day. Uh, and um, and so
00:41:57
every day or every second day or so, she'll send me a piece of music on Spotify. I'll send her one as well. And
00:42:02
then we have a lot of music pumping through our house at most times when we're all together and um, honing around
00:42:07
and dancing around in the kitchen. It's great fun. So um, what are you what are
00:42:10
you into? I've heard you like country music. Any particular I actually love all sorts of music, you know. I really
00:42:15
do, you know. Um, you know, you we grew up in an era, didn't we, where we had,
00:42:19
you know, the tape, you might remember the tape decks and you make your own mix tapes and dubbing high speed dubbing and
00:42:24
all that stuff. It's funny. I mean, people listening to this conversation go, "What the hell are these two old
00:42:28
guys talking about?" But um, but no, so I I love all sorts of music. I got into
00:42:32
country music really because of living in the States for 8 years. And uh after a while it's just everywhere and it's
00:42:38
sort of not the old country and western that a lot of New Zealanders would know but it is you know um Zack Brian and
00:42:44
Luke Combmes and and that kind of stuff which is actually becoming more popular here you know it's been awesome to see
00:42:50
my song of the year was last year would be Think I'm in love with you which was
00:42:54
Chris Stapleton and do a leap you know doing a combination together you know it was pretty awesome um you look at Post
00:42:58
Malone and F1 trillion his new album it's pretty great um Zack Bryan nineball
00:43:03
awesome song you know So yeah, that's pretty pretty, you know, that's Olivia
00:43:08
and I do music stuff together. That's why we love going to concerts and things
00:43:10
like that. You mentioned the American um piece of the puzzle. Um yeah, so you were you were away from New Zealand for
00:43:16
a long time like 17 18 years and then you moved back to back to New Zealand. Um what were your key observations after
00:43:21
moving back like in terms of in particular tall poppy and anti- rich sentiment? Yeah, look, I think I think
00:43:27
the thing I learned, you know, I left here at 24, as I said, probably came back just on 40 or 40. I was 40 and um
00:43:35
and essentially I always felt like a Kiwi when I went out overseas, but I learned different things from living in
00:43:40
those different countries. And I lived in what we'd call the five eyes countries. I lived in Australia, London,
00:43:45
England, and uh Canada, and America. And you know, when you go to Australia, um there's just a lot more directness. It's
00:43:52
not personal. It's just that, you know, you and I can be best mates, but I'm
00:43:56
going to tell you, mate, that really pissed me off and annoyed me when you did this and that. It's not personal,
00:44:00
but just giving you some feedback. So, Australia is much more direct, a lot more confidence um in some ways in terms
00:44:06
of how you dealt with people. So, I found my language hardened up a lot, you know, as you sort of dealt with people
00:44:11
um in that business setting. When I went to England, it was very much at univer it was an Oxbridge culture. So you had
00:44:17
to be really intellectually have your first principles and your logic really straightforward decisions that you were
00:44:22
making and and how you engage with people and were respected. Um you know when I went to America it's all about
00:44:28
you know delivery execution focus and so you know um you know and you had all the
00:44:32
people I to join my company you had to be a Harvard Yale you know Ivy Lee kind of brain uh to be able to do that. So
00:44:38
you know you so you kept your New Zealandness but you did pick up bits and pieces from the best bits of different
00:44:44
countries while also observing the bits you didn't think were that great. But I
00:44:47
think my New Zealandness actually and my Kiwi actually made me very successful internationally because I was more
00:44:53
general. I was broader than most people. Kiwis are good with you know we have strong relational skills and um I think
00:44:59
that served me really well and made me I was different from from um those management people or or kids that were
00:45:06
coming through in a different system. Um and so when you came back home again, you know, it was challenging in some
00:45:11
ways, but Amanda and I again always um thought about it as if we yes, we were coming home, which we were so excited
00:45:16
about, but we also wanted to manage our expectations that we couldn't just we
00:45:20
couldn't just slot into all the friendships we had when we left 16 years ago cuz we'd all everyone had changed
00:45:25
and move forward. Some of some of that did happen naturally and some of it didn't. But um so we just came back as
00:45:31
every time we moved countries we always had a view that within 3 months we should be pretty settled and we had a
00:45:36
bit of a process around that. wouldn't surprise you given how organized I sort
00:45:39
of think about things and Amanda are the same but um it was great coming home particularly with the family pieces but
00:45:45
I do observe you know there are differences you know I love the ambition and aspiration of Australians and
00:45:49
Americans you know I think they they celebrate success and you know I've observed that here in New Zealand I've
00:45:56
probably been the brunt of that at times I know John Key probably felt the same way you know we're kids actually who
00:46:00
just came from regular backgrounds as I've tried to talk about today um who yep got a great education managed to do
00:46:07
well for ourselves and and you know that success is sometimes you feel it's like
00:46:12
a a negative thing and it's like well don't you want someone why can't someone
00:46:16
successful like me come into the parliament I know my background is not a standard career politician I've done a
00:46:22
bunch of other stuff that I think is has skills that are transferable in the you
00:46:26
want parliament to be representative of all New Zealanders from all walks of life but just because I've been
00:46:31
successful and um you don't you know that's not a reason why I can't be in
00:46:35
parliament either and I actually think it's what New Zealand kind of needs. Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you find that
00:46:39
frustrating? It's not I don't get frustrated by the criticism. I mean, I
00:46:43
listen to the criticism. It's like social media. I'm sort of informed, but
00:46:46
I'm not um consumed by it. And I'm also of the view and I've had this view from
00:46:51
a very young age is that I don't take offense from people I wouldn't take
00:46:54
advice from. Uh and it's pretty simple, you know. So, and frankly, if you want
00:46:58
to critique and c from the sidelines, feel free. But actually, you know, otherwise, you know, show some guts and
00:47:04
get into the arena. You know, step into the process if you want to. I don't have
00:47:07
to do this job. I choose to do this job. I want to do this job cuz I genuinely am
00:47:11
committed to a mission of of improving and realizing New Zealand's potential.
00:47:15
I've been all around the world. I've seen the good, the bad of of each and
00:47:18
every country. I know we got an awesome pot. So, I get connected to that. And therefore, to be honest, the the
00:47:24
criticism doesn't really, you know, worry me. I I I I have to listen to it because there's often good points of
00:47:30
feedback in there of how I can be better. Um but you have to watch some of that stuff. Yeah. Yes. If I've got my
00:47:36
information that I read online correct, your your pay cut from me in New Zealand
00:47:39
to parliament was like 90%. 4 million to I think you're on just under half a million now. So it's is and
00:47:46
it seems like there's just sectors of New Zealand that just have a real issue
00:47:49
with someone earning that sort of money. Yeah. Look, I get it. And um you know uh
00:47:54
um I I don't I mean you don't make a change like I've made um to and you know
00:47:59
people people would say you know if you really were motivated by money you would
00:48:02
be you know in the peak earning period of your life you wouldn't be doing politics right so for me it never I've
00:48:08
not been a deeply material person yes I've been paid uh very well um but you
00:48:13
know our family and I try and live with the values that I was raised with in New
00:48:17
Zealand and try and impart that to my kids and uh and you know Amanda and I don't live what we'd call high. I think
00:48:23
um even John Key would tell you that he thinks we that we don't live like that.
00:48:27
But um but but but but I just yeah I mean I I get it and I understand why you know that is but I I think um I feel
00:48:36
like I know what's going on in New Zealand. I I've come from a background I
00:48:39
have family. I I see people each and every day who are doing it tough. I understand that reality. uh and just
00:48:44
because I may be, you know, uh in a different place, you know, because of my background or career, um doesn't it's
00:48:51
not doesn't mean I don't care or I don't understand what's happening for people.
00:48:54
That's why I'm actually in politics is because I think we can do so much better
00:48:57
than what we've been doing. At the point we're recording this, I'm I'm guessing
00:49:01
you're about halfway through your current term as Yeah, exactly. Pretty much half time. Um yeah, report card.
00:49:08
What what what have you done really well? What could you be doing better? Yeah, look, I think I mean I'm one of
00:49:12
those people who's constructively dissatisfied all the time. So, I always think there's things I personally could
00:49:16
be doing better. I think, you know, we could as a team could be doing better. Um, I'm grossly impatient about the
00:49:22
results and outcomes. You know, that's why I sort of, you know, I think if I
00:49:25
zoom back a bit, I think New Zealand public, but I think when I talk to other world leaders, publics all around the
00:49:30
world are just grumpy. They're frustrated. Um, it's an age of dislocation at the moment with
00:49:36
technology and disruption. uh and they're over politicians and glib sort of bumper stickers and and statements.
00:49:42
They kind of want you to deliver outcomes and results for them. And I think that's actually why my background
00:49:47
and coming in at this time in New Zealand's you know political history is actually really important you know
00:49:51
because that is my my story of turning things around and sorting things out and getting better results and outcomes. So
00:49:57
um I think you know what we've done well is you know we've formed the first
00:50:00
three-party coalition government in New Zealand. You know really difficult thing
00:50:03
to do but MMP is our political system, our electoral system. um it's matured.
00:50:08
It's coming up almost 30 years since we've had it now. Um it means that you
00:50:12
have to find ways to collaborate. You may not wish to do so, but actually the New Zealand people vote and they give us
00:50:17
an election result on election night and then we're tasked with trying to make
00:50:20
that work. And um I think the way that our coalition has come together with very big and different personalities and
00:50:26
different parties with different policies and different constituents. You know, you see it in Western Europe. You
00:50:31
know, it's the same system that we have here in New Zealand. I think we've done
00:50:33
a good job of managing that and keeping the government focused on what it's got
00:50:37
to do, which is sort out this economy, restore law, and order better public services. So, you know, that's also got
00:50:42
to get performance out of the public service to help us do that as well. Yeah. Now, you're um you're a
00:50:48
relentlessly positive optimist. Um journalists by nature are sort of negative glass half empty people. I'd
00:50:54
say I've noticed a couple of times it's it seems like you've been you you've got
00:50:57
snappy with the media. I don't I don't I don't think I do. I might they might I
00:51:01
might have a furough brow from time to time but um I don't no I actually the
00:51:06
media have got a job to do right I mean they have a really important job to do which is to hold us to account uh and
00:51:12
you know that's something I hugely respect. I don't always agree with them
00:51:15
or their you know their you know um you know their view but I also just don't
00:51:20
think there's any value in me complaining about it either when I think we've been treated unfairly or I think
00:51:25
there's a principle that hasn't been held up. Um, and I'm kind of a principal
00:51:29
fairness kind of person at my heart, you know. So, I sort of sometimes you can react to things um, personally about the
00:51:34
media, but I I try and, you know, I try and take all questions. I try and, you know, patiently explain what what I
00:51:39
think's going on and give context for stuff because you do need our media to
00:51:43
function well in order to get the message out to people. And that can be a real challenge. It can be a real
00:51:48
challenge. Um, but also there's other ways to talk directly to people. I've
00:51:51
had the best conversations, for example, on mental health on the rock, uh, with the team there, cuz those guys really
00:51:57
get it. They really understand Bryce and and and Rod and all the team, you know,
00:52:00
they they really have done some amazing work on mental health. I've had high
00:52:04
quality conversations on the rock, able to talk to 250,000 people about why, you
00:52:09
know, what we're going to do in mental health. Um, you know, so there's there's
00:52:12
other ways to get messages out as well. But yeah, the media can, you know, it's
00:52:15
one of the it's it's it's a you know, it's something having been in politics
00:52:19
for four years, um, you know, when you're standing in a scrum where, you know, people just firing random
00:52:24
questions at you and sometimes there's a bit of group think where they all get on
00:52:28
one issue and you're going, "Well, actually, I'm not sure that's what New
00:52:30
Zealanders are really focused on right now." Um, they're really struggling
00:52:33
getting through from paycheck to paycheck, trying to get through their, you know, grocery shop each week. Why
00:52:38
don't we talk about what we're going to do to fix that problem? um rather than a
00:52:41
process story or a gotcha story around the inner workings of parliament or political piece. You know, I just I
00:52:48
think I think they do a really important job and but it's also I think it's
00:52:51
really important to it's why I get out of Wellington pretty quickly each week
00:52:54
is because I you know yesterday I was in Gisbon and Hawks Bay, right? You know, when you're talking to people there
00:52:59
sometimes the conversation we've been having in Wellington isn't that relevant
00:53:02
to what's going on in their life. you know, what we were trying to do yesterday was get 149 houses built um
00:53:07
for for for solo moms that need homes and uh good communities around them and that was pretty exciting. That's what
00:53:13
you really enjoy about the job. Um so yeah, so yeah, the media is what it is and they've got a job to do and my my
00:53:20
thing is um I I think every politician if you spoke to you former prominence as well, they would say, you know, they
00:53:26
don't always agree with it, but um me winging about a compliment doesn't come.
00:53:30
Suck it up, buttercup. you you kind of have to because actually it's like I say
00:53:33
to my team they can often get bit out of shape about how they think we're being
00:53:36
treated or not treated fairly or whatever but it's like guys when you're
00:53:40
playing game of rugby if you've got a bad riff you've got to find a way to win
00:53:43
you know and win ugly win nice but you got to find a way to win and so don't
00:53:47
complain about the ref you know oh what about um speaking of media there was that interview with um the Hosk a couple
00:53:52
of months ago one of your one of your one of your team u resigned um Mike asked if you would have sacked him
00:53:59
otherwise And yeah, obiscated. Yeah. What what were you doing? Were you just like protecting him? You made a promise
00:54:05
to him that you wouldn't throw him under the bus? No, I just I mean like that's a
00:54:08
that's a great Thank you for raising. It's a great question to ask because you
00:54:12
know there's a really difficult situation. We're a really hardworking individual has done a great job as a
00:54:17
minister. Really passionate about what he's doing. Was doing a really great job
00:54:22
and yep he made a mistake you know and yep he fronted it. And you know let's be
00:54:26
clear the mistakes when you do them in politics they're all public. everybody
00:54:29
sees it. Uh it's quite a high bar. Uh and he came to a decision and came to me
00:54:34
and said, "Look, I think I need to resign over this issue." And I said, "I
00:54:38
think you do, too. And I think that's appropriate that you do so." So, I just
00:54:42
didn't want to put the boot in, frankly, because again, it's part of, you know,
00:54:46
ministers are human, right? We're all human. Prime Minister are human. You all
00:54:49
have feelings. You all have families. You have friends. Um yep, you you you know, you [ __ ] something up. You made a
00:54:55
mistake. uh and you know do you really need to sort of pile in is kind of how I felt about it and rightly or wrongly
00:55:02
that's why you know when he kept asking me the question would you ever have fired him would you have fired him would
00:55:06
you have fired him well I just didn't feel I I I probably answered it from a
00:55:10
human point of view of like is this really what this individual needs right now is to say the promised would have
00:55:15
fired you anyway you know um and so yep I didn't probably get that one right I
00:55:20
should have answered more definitively about it but uh and but it was actually you get caught between in a human moment
00:55:26
of trying to care for the individual who you actually have worked with and know well and um yes has a different
00:55:31
personality but actually just generally made a mistake right and it's taken responsibility for it and do they really
00:55:36
need me piling on but equally the media you know quite rightly want to know well
00:55:40
would you have fired him or not when when Mike asked the same question in a different way the fourth time why why
00:55:46
didn't you just throw your mate under the bus well as as I said because that's
00:55:49
the dissonance that you have inside right yeah you're the big dog yeah I am yeah I am and I and and the answer is
00:55:53
yes I I would have because it was um it was a was a was an issue that I felt was
00:55:58
inappropriate and it would have led to that. But the point was um I'm just trying to explain to you how in the
00:56:03
moment in that question and the morning was very generous if you stay maybe loyalty to a fault some might say well I
00:56:10
just think I got it wrong you know I could have been more definitive and and and I could have answered that much
00:56:14
better. Uh but the point was uh I was trying to you there's a human moment to
00:56:19
these things and and I get it and politics is pretty brutal sometimes and um but I still think people are human.
00:56:24
Yeah. Um just back up to something you said before. You mentioned the rock and you gave them some flowers for their
00:56:29
work around mental health which is welld deserved. How's how's your mental health
00:56:32
been? Good. Good. I think you know because I sort of came as I said to you earlier with a mom who was always asking
00:56:37
you how are you feeling? You know what what's going on for you and someone I
00:56:41
could always process and talk with as well and dad's the same. Um, uh, I I think genuinely I've leared to sort of I
00:56:48
genuinely was I was really lucky I had some of that equipment on board before it was a popular thing, not a popular
00:56:53
thing before we talked about it as openly as we do now. When you and I came through, like it was a lot of stigma
00:56:58
around mental health. And I, you know, John Kerwin's a good friend. I often just say to him, mate, you know, the
00:57:03
work that you've done to take that stigma away, now our question and conversation is about access for
00:57:08
services and support for mental health. So I've also read a lot about um you
00:57:14
know mental health and and and you have to know yourself really well right and I
00:57:18
think people go through life often not knowing themselves at a at a really deep level as to when they are under pressure
00:57:25
and um when those cracks are appearing and you know in a job like this you know with a huge pressure and huge um uh
00:57:32
stress uh applied cracks appear right and and you know you know everyone's personality is under pressure you know
00:57:39
the cracks uh appear and um for me I've just learned to process as I go. So for
00:57:44
me, you know, as I said, it is little things like I have to stay really balanced in those four different
00:57:49
energies, you know, um you know, when I hang out with my friends on a weekend, you know, we don't talk politics, you
00:57:54
know, we just we're just doing life together with all its ups and downs. You
00:57:57
know, I've got a good group of friends, my brothers, my family um as well, uh
00:58:02
that we just sort of do life with. So I feel like I'm No, I feel like I um can
00:58:07
can process it quite well. Um, I don't mean that to sound arrogantly at all cuz
00:58:11
I know it's it's difficult for people, but there is routines that you have like
00:58:15
I know I need to socialize with friends and family because that fills me up, you
00:58:20
know, um there's a lot of asks of you where you're giving out a lot, but how
00:58:24
do you fill up the bottle uh as Paul Keing would say and actually sort of um fill it up with just life, you know, and
00:58:31
and positivity and stuff and so hanging out with the kids um cranking up the music and doing silly dances in the
00:58:38
kitchen and you know, all that stuff is sounds frivolous, but it actually is part of managing energy, you know. When
00:58:44
was the last time you cried? Uh, are you an emotional guy or Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was I get moved by
00:58:53
quite a lot of things actually. You know, I found myself, you know, feeling quite emotional yesterday. I was with um
00:58:58
three young people who'd come from some pretty difficult circumstances and had
00:59:03
actually been come through a trades program that had got them into a Robin is that this 18-year-old kid was telling
00:59:08
me his story. I was thinking, "Man, I'm so proud of you for how you've turned
00:59:12
your life around and and you know, these guys telling me their quite horrific stories. I found the abuse in care
00:59:18
really hard, you know, really difficult. I read every single page of those reports. I read the um case studies,
00:59:24
really harrowing accounts, you know, I was crying most of the time I was reading that um as you would expect. So,
00:59:29
no, I I think it's important you don't hide your emotions and I don't it's not
00:59:33
something you can bottle up, you know. I think you just have to be have to you know you you should you should feel
00:59:38
emotions you know I think it's important to feel you know they're not just
00:59:41
thinkers they're feelers as well. Yeah that's great. Yeah I mean we know
00:59:46
that vulnerability is now like a superpower and it's not a weakness and stuff but is it possible to have
00:59:50
vulnerability and be a strong leader at the same time? Yeah I think it is. I think um you know you'll have people
00:59:57
when you are you know as a politician I think there's people feel if you are
01:00:00
vulnerable it's going to be used against you and you know in our in our podcast
01:00:04
today I probably talked about things and whether you know people decide to politicize that or not but actually it's
01:00:08
about being human and we're actually all humans as well and um you know whether
01:00:12
it's Chris Hipkins or just or John Key or Bill English or myself you know we're
01:00:16
all people with you know feelings as well so I think um yeah I think being vulnerable is really important. Yeah.
01:00:22
Hey this has been great today. Just before we go, um, my show is sponsored by the Generate Kiwi Saver scheme. So,
01:00:28
they they've given me $500 to give to you to give to charity. Oh, awesome. What What your There's so many of that
01:00:36
you could support. Yeah. Um um I think um yeah there's I'd love to think about
01:00:42
where I would like to direct that because I know there's a number of places that I would like to think about
01:00:45
that a little bit more purposefully. But um there's some incredible charities
01:00:49
doing some amazing work and in fact I'm trying as a government to make sure that
01:00:52
we work with many of the community organizations and get the money out them to actually get to the people that
01:00:57
desperately need it. But um if you if you don't mind, I would really like to
01:01:00
think about how I can make that difference because there's there's a number that come to mind, but I know
01:01:03
there are some that $500 would make a big difference to. Okay, couple of quick questions from Generate. What's the best
01:01:07
thing about being a Kiwi? Um, I think um the best thing about being a Kiwi is that we can, you know, we've got
01:01:14
ambition and aspiration we can take on the world and we're world beaters. We're
01:01:17
the best in the world. And some Kiwi saver advice you'd give anyone? Um, well, again, from my family point of
01:01:23
view, we've been quite hot on on financial teaching our kids how to manage money well. And it started when
01:01:27
they were five. They had four slotted money boxes. Uh, that'd be an allowance,
01:01:31
$5 allowance. We do an assessment on a Sunday night as to how well you had or hadn't done. There might be a $350 week
01:01:36
because you didn't need to be the dishwasher or the rubbish spin and uh as a result you tax them. Yeah. Yeah. And
01:01:40
then they get their money in coins as little chaps and then they have to work out a quarter has to go to donate and
01:01:45
that goes to their sponsored kids on World Vision. And then they have to make a decision on save or invest or spend.
01:01:50
And if it goes into save invest, we doubled it up. And that's how we taught them when they were 5 to 10 as to how to
01:01:54
start to manage money. But I just think um you know uh get get on top of your budgets. It's why I've actually been
01:02:00
really hot on this because I want financial literacy taught to our kids because I don't think we do that very
01:02:05
well and people um with low incomes can manage exceptionally well and people with high incomes often spend their
01:02:10
money and are completely in debt. So, it's about teaching get on a budget, understand um what you're saving uh um
01:02:16
get your savings identified and then just do it regularly and consistently even when you don't have that much
01:02:20
money. I love that. Um and final one um say it's your funeral and your family's
01:02:25
around. What three words would you like people to describe you with? Um uh um uh
01:02:32
you know love of people care care of care of family uh and people um uh uh relaxed open um um and did his best you
01:02:41
know and I think that's sort of the sentiments I often I often do think about my later stage in life you know I
01:02:46
want to be able to put my arm around my adult son and say I love you and know that we're in good relationship you know
01:02:51
that's the stuff that I think will matter I don't think being prime minister of New Zealand or a successful
01:02:55
business guy or CEO will be actually what they'll talk about at my funeral the impact that I've had on people. Um,
01:02:59
and that's what I'd hope that would be talked about. Yeah. You good at telling
01:03:02
them you love them? Absolutely. Every day. Every day. You know, I was raised that way with my own parents telling me
01:03:08
that they loved us and me do the same. And I think sometimes you get to funerals and it's all these things that
01:03:13
have been said about these people in funerals that you say, "Man, I wish I'd
01:03:15
said that to people before they died." And um, if you just knew how proud your
01:03:19
dad was of you or your mom was of you or you know what people really thought about you. And I often something
01:03:24
actually we talk my mom and dad I've talked about a lot is you know growing up is you should tell people how you
01:03:29
feel about them now while they're living. Don't wait for a eulogy at a funeral. It's it's too late at that
01:03:34
point in time. So um yeah live life now and and tell people really how you think
01:03:38
about them and how you love them. Great place to end it. Christopher Laxon, Prime Minister number 42. Number 42.
01:03:43
Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Great mate. Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.