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been okay for Dr Ben Dr Ben O'Keefe g'day hey Dom how you doing I'm doing
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great mate I'm doing so good to have you over I really appreciate this I'm really
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looking forward to chatting with you yeah man I'll be happy to have you have
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a good Yarn yeah first of all um one thing that I I never realized about you and I suppose actually most people don't
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the referees kind of um kind of kind of an invisible player on the field you know you have such an important part
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that and you do a good job and people either love you or they loathe you and um then you just get on with you get on
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with your day um but you're like an eye an eye doctor yeah yeah I mean because everyone makes Specsavers
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jokes and there's Specsavers on a lot of the shirts that you're ripping but you
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are actually an eye doctor when the specsaver sponsorship came through I thought like this is ironic and I think
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you know actually it's really good for them to be able to do that for referees
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because everyone you know you talk about loving and Loathing like there's a lot
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of loathing and there's a lot of you know eye test sort of questions coming at us but yeah I can actually test those
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people's vision for them and um I often have that joke people yell at you know
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that I need to sort of get my vision checked as well do the same thing yeah um yeah the jokes just sort of write
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themselves really don't they they do so you're a bit of a better ramp all that
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kind of stuff and especially when you're wearing Specsavers the whole time in the
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Big Green you know so it's great it's great sponsorship for them and you know
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they're good sponsors for us yeah so what is what is your job exactly so you're um you're a qualified doctor and
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then did you specialize in Optical stuff yeah so about um I mean it must be about 10 years ago
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so I you know I went to went to med school after you know after after school went to University got through into med
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school you do six years and then after that you do postgraduate you know two years trying to do thing and then and
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for me I realized really quickly that I didn't really like actual medicine I
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liked surgery I like the fixing things so in the two years they tell you exactly what you have to do so you do a
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bit of general medicine um you'll do a bit of general practice you do a little bit of surgery gin Surge
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and then you can start sort of sub-specializing into fields that you want to do afterwards because
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at Mid School you learn everything theoretically but you actually don't know the job until you actually get into
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the job right so when you're working in the hospital when you're on the wards
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when you're doing the late nights when you're on call with three in the morning
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you have emergency calls you're in theater you're operating so all of that
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kind of stuff you see the job so I I realized earlier that I like I liked being really good at something and being
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able to fix something so if you came in with a damaged tendon or a broken bone we fixed it and then we saw you next
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week and if you had another issue well I would see would send you to another specialist and that's what I liked so I
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started moving down that pathway of um you know surgery general surgery did a bit of Orthopedics then did Plastics I
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did plastic surgery for like a year as a house officer and a registrar so you have these levels so
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you're like you know a junior doctor and then a registrar and then you're a
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consultant so I did plastics for a long time but then I I figured that I I really liked
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well there's there was one side of like the surgical Specialties is that you
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know the the Consultants are just so so busy and so they're always coming in on court
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I remember one one morning um 8 A.M we did our Ward round and the Plastics award and the surgeon who was
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about he was probably about 65 in you know so he's a really well respected and
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amazing surgeon was came into his clinic but he'd been up all night because he'd
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been a big car accident so he's operating all night and I remember seeing that he was just he was shattered
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and you know he was having to go into a clinic and then operate again that afternoon and while I love that like I
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wanted to do that when I was younger I think I was getting to an age or I wanted you know you decided to think
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about you know how you are getting older and what you want to do for your life and stuff so
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I I started thinking I love these Specialties and I sort of came across Ophthalmology which is which is eye
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medicine and realized that it's the best of both worlds you do a bit of medicine
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you some amazing surgeries you know like being able to do a cataract operation you can fix someone's eyesight and they
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can you know see again you know pretty well straight after um and you know people take their vision
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for granted and and generally um you know as a registrar you are really really busy
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um and you know a lot of things you can sort of manage you know as a consultant you're not having to come in probably as
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much as as those big surgical Plastics bosses and the orthopedic bosses so um yeah I sort of just fell into that
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because you in six years of med school you only do about one week of Ophthalmology and I've been on the other
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side as a registrar where I have those students with me for the week and I feel really bad because you're on the thing
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about Ophthalmology is that you uh working on a microscope and looking into someone's eye and so you've got a poor
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student here that you're trying to teach but they can't see what you're doing
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or you're operating and say like hold this back hold that look at that this is
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this I'm basically trying to tell them something that you know they're having
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to try and imagine can you not project it onto a big screen or you can like these different there's obviously
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technology like that but um you know when we're in our small little clinic in
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the emergency department we can't do that so I always feel sorry for them always like look if you don't if you
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need to go you need to go to the library do some extra work you can go and you know because I felt like that's what I
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was like when I was a student right and that's what you did so it was in that
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one week so I didn't really know until I started studying and I did a little
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diploma in it to see like yeah I like this Theory let's actually get a job and
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so I worked full-time as a house officer and a registry on Ophthalmology and did
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that for a few years and have still been doing that since um I then came to a Crossroads and did
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my Rugby and um sort of went the other direction for a while yeah you must be super smart is
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that med school is ridiculously difficult isn't it don't they like Slash
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from year one to year two it's a big class size and a half yeah there's a big
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cat um I'm definitely not super smart like I I feel like I've got a good work
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eth I think that's what gets me through everything you know um so you know work
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my butt off the first year put all my eggs into a basket went to the non-drinking hall you know all that kind
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of stuff and I love a good drink and so that was really hard but it all worked in my favor right so
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um it's it's I think after like six so I think out of maybe 3 000 people that go
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into Health Sciences you know 250 get into medicine 200 Industry physio B midsize all that kind of stuff so it is
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competitive um and there's a bit of a cull after six months you know like the chemistry paper
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and then you know you've got the other one um at the end of the year like all
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your other papers that you have to do so like thinking back then as well you know
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you're so young and you have to make that decision um yeah straight out of school yeah
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straight out of school you know like there's obviously different systems overseas when they have America they you
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know you'll have to get into medicine postgraduate I feel like that's quite
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good because you actually grow up a little bit and decide you know what you want to do and you sort of get your life
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sort of sorted rather than just you know University as an 18 year old so um yeah it's super hard super
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competitive but um you know really you know things you get to do and um you know the what you get to I guess
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contribute to it's you know society and everything like it's got a lot of
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meaning and that's what I've always loved about it and and fortunately for
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me because that's always been my career when I've done this rugby it's I've been
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able to keep the rugby as a passion and I think that's helped as well yeah that
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was I suppose going to be my next uh question like how how do you how do you balance both
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um you know being a professional rugby like when I first messaged you it was after the um Super Rugby final Chiefs
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Crusaders um which you ruined Apparently one of the million messages I saw your message I was like oh this is a nice one
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I'm gonna I'm gonna read this message um we'll get into that but I I messaged
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you like the week after that and you were over in I think South Africa or somewhere you can't be doing a lot of
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medicine these days medicines that are taking a backbend yeah it was about so I've been
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professional as a referee for I think seven or eight years now that's pretty
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scary it goes It goes pretty fast and how I started referring I was just at University I I played rugby like you
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know a lot of kiwis I wanted to be an all black like a lot of kiwis playing rugby and went to University and just
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realized that everyone was so serious about becoming all back I just didn't want to do that and I think you know
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people's skills started catching up to my skill which wasn't great anyway
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um so my dad refereed when I was younger and he said look you should give referring a go you know and if it's just
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to stay in the game that's great but it's also something that's going to
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balance your books balance your studying it's going to get you out of the out of
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the Halls out of the hostels out of the lecture theaters and you know you're
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gonna love it and so I really just did it as a weekend thing too 18 19 20. so I was not I was 19. you
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know my first game I remember turning up I didn't have I didn't I had a whistle
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but I didn't have a watch I had to buy the coach's watch and it was like it was
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a game that was directly across from me where I was living I was sort of looking
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over at this field being like why don't they have a referee and then I opened my
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laptop because back then I think we had like those like Sony Ericsson phones you
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know you didn't get emails on them you know they actually emailed me on Sunday
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allows me to referee that game so I don't really get that until about half an hour before so I quickly ran over
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there and and did my very first game and yeah so it was just an outlet for me for
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so long and like players you you referee Club rugby and then they think you do a
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good job so you start referring senior Club rugby in your referee Regional and you start referring like South Island
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and then you know you get to a point where they suit you for the Heartland competition which is sort of the
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regional competition in NBC super and international so I got to a point where I was doing this all through my medicine
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um did it as I was working as a doctor as well so you know I'd finish my my clinics on a Friday a referee Club rugby
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on a Saturday and it was easy because that's that's where I lived but then it
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got to a point where I was doing NPC and Super Rugby where again it was fine um because I finished my clinics on a
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Friday if I was on call that weekend I'd have to say I'm unavailable for rugby
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but then I'd fly to my game do my game Saturday fly back Sunday back to work
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Monday and so this was like my life for a few years where Monday to Friday pretty demanding job in medicine but was
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my outlook for rugby and then Friday to Saturday Sunday I'd be traveling for
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rugby which was almost like I kept doing that and then the more games I did in Super Rugby I started going to Australia
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and I started getting games every weekend and then you know the demand of the game is you've got to do a lot of
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preparation so while I'd prepare for my games before my clinics after my clinics
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I'd have to train like midnight some nights you know because that was the only time that I finished because I
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needed to be ready for this job on the weekend I got to a point where I remember this one Clinic that I was
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doing and I kept looking at the time because I had to fly out at 7pm that's why at 7 pm normally you know you
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couldn't should finish at five yeah and you sort of manage it on a Friday so
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that it should finish by the end but if something comes in you can't leave um you know someone that
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someone starts on qualify but you can't just go clock off five if you're done
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yeah from the patient's perspective I've checked one eye yeah but that's the
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thing and that this was this I was in a hurry and I started realizing that and and that was the problem in this
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situation I was looking at Time stuff started building up um I got to five o'clock it got to six
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o'clock I got to seven I realized that you know I'd missed the flight but I
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don't think I in in the moment like I think I was I was still very good at what I was doing at that moment but I
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was um I was vulnerable I was fragile about like being rushed and and I remember
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after that weekend I got I finally booked my flight got to Auckland did my game came back Sunday and then on a
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Monday like um during a break I just like this is this is tough now but fortunately it was the same time a few
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weeks later New Zealand Rugby sort of offered me this full-time contract and I had I had a mentor of mine who was
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another doctor Jonathan white is a cardiologist up here in Auckland Interventional cardiologist incredible
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incredible human being and he'd never actually seen me referee but he'd you
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know took me under his wing and he was like he showed that there could be a doctor that could also referee rugby in
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it to a high level he referred to Super Rugby but he when he got to the same point that I got to he chose to do
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medicine and so he gave up on Rugby and he would have he would have refreed many
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World Cups he would have been our best of referee for a long time so talking with him and and seeing him do that I
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actually decided to go the other way and I thought look I'm going to sign this
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contract for a year I'm going to do rugby see how long it goes for and because I'll always have a regret if I
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don't and and all the Consultants that I talk to in medicine they said look medicine's going to be here give it give
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it a go and it's not not a bad career to fall back on oh no it works it works out
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super well and and that's why I like I had to give it a go give it and I remember being so nervous talking to my
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heated apartment around it I I probably walked past her door for about two weeks
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being like look I'm gonna I want to try and do this I want to know I've got this
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contract what do you think I did I finally built up the courage to walk in sit down and she was super supportive of
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everything she said the same things like look we'll be here at the end we can we
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can do we can support you as you're going through we'll make it work we actually need extra doctors anyway
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and so I think without having probably her being so supportive as well I wouldn't be here I am now so so back to
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your original question like like how much do I do um it's great I'm so it's so flexible so I
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would probably work maybe maybe one to two days a week when I'm in New Zealand
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but the benefit is is that I'm not actually I don't have a clinic under Dr
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O'Keefe you know it's not under my under my name so that if I wasn't in the air
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all those patients would just be lost or they wouldn't be able to be lost to
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follow what I do is that when I'm available and free I actually I will I'll go in and instead of there being
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two eye doctors working and the clinic that goes from nine to five which is super super busy I think there's a thing
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in medicine like everyone thinks that the eye doctors upstairs they just sitting there drink coffee but I'm
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telling you right now like it is super super busy which is which is cool um so instead of the two doctors they
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have three so out of maybe the 40 patients that the the two of the doctors have to see in that day and plus all the
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issues that come on board they'll all see 10 or 15 of them so it helps everyone it keeps me engaged in the game
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and it also means that when I when I need to leave so like last week yeah when you're contacting me I was in South
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Africa and I was in France I can just go and and I don't have clinics that I need
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to rearrange and when I come back home um I can get back into it so during the year during the rugby season you know
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one to two days a week um and then between probably November and January it's it's almost almost full
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time like four or five days a week and you know I train some of the other doctors and I learned from them and
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um you know it's a really really cool time of year because I can sort of get
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back into what I really love doing oh good stuff um you mentioned before that first
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contract from the New Zealand Rugby Union like a one-year contract so you you so you grind away for years and
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years doing the Heartland staff and before that club stuff and so so that stuff you like in the early days of your
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riffing um you were just doing it with the knowledge that you had from being a former player yourself so I'm guessing
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you don't know the intricacies of the law no and I would say like being a former player I wouldn't even cast
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myself as a former player I knew I knew how to catch a ball and pass it right and I run into a gap but I wasn't back
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you know I was this I was sort of this height when I was younger and I never went into the forge I'm kind of gutted I
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never went into Fords so I never hit a rock I was never in a scrum so my sort of game knowledge I had to really learn
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quickly you know and that's why you get a lot of ex-players who become like each
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professional players who become referees and they immediately go to the top level
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because they have that game understanding so I guess I've come through a traditional referring pathway
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where you just have to learn the technicalities and you know you learn that at a low age and you hope that you
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do it all at a young age so when you are doing the TV games like you've learned
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that you made all new mistakes and so you don't have those sort of those train
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smashes on the big stage you sort of do it at Club rugby and that's what I always I try and tell young refreezers
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you know they're so and this is like me you know you're hungry to want to keep
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going and keep driving and keep being passionate about progressing but you also want to do your time you want to
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make sure that you're learning at those lower levels tucked away when no one's
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watching um you're learning off other referees off players watching your games so that
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when you do you know hit NBC you do hit Super Rugby you know you can hit the ground running but yeah that's just you
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just learned it and you know I'm still learning like you learn every year well
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the rules just don't change but you know you better these new developments foul
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play um how you deal in every moment because every little tackle every bit of Foul
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Play Every Little Rock every scrum is slightly different to what you've ever
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had before yeah so you've got to be adaptable when you've got to keep working on your mental skills and all
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that kind of stuff to be able to do it so that's cool yeah you mentioned um just a second ago that you're still
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learning um there's going to be people in the waikato listening to this that no
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yeah you haven't learned what are you gonna say but I think it was just another kid I was like all of
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New Zealand apart from people in the South Island around Canterbury so yeah oh man it's just crazy so um
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yes um I mean I like as I said at the beginning of this thing like riffing's
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not something I ever thought about like you watch the game the rift makes some some bad calls or whatever and you know
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you get annoyed and then you just move on with it but it's like since prepping for this interview just
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thinking about like what's involved and what you go through it's it's phenomenal
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it's a lot how how far would you run in a game um being the runners podcast is a good
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question um we run eight and a half I don't know so we have a little GPS on the back yeah
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um so we're pretty specific on that and you know we look at um Leafly rightly dominance you know how
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many accelerations we're doing decelerations because that's all around um you know have you have you prepped
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enough for that load during the week as well so when we were training we need to
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we wear our GPS's so that I want to I need to know that I'm heading a certain
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number of K's during the week a certain number of excels D cells so then you
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know I can do that in the game and I won't get injured so it's all about injury
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prevention and and so we would yeah so we'd run about eight and a half if you
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ran more than that you've got to ask yourself okay was this game just one of
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those games where you where you ran a lot more like there's a lot more trials
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a lot more kicking up and down the field or actually were you out of position a lot and that's why you're having to run
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to catch up um and the other thing is if you were under that was it just a really slow
00:17:01
game you're up in the northern hemisphere it's boggy it's weird there's
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just scrum after scrum so you're not moving a lot or again were you not keeping up with play so there's all
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these you know so you've got to look at those things around you know those commoners that you're doing but
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generally it is yeah it's about eight and a half but you know we're in control
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we're the ones with the whistle so we can stop them when we get tired we're not like players who have to make
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tackles and you know the the fitness that they have yeah yeah it's great but
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I mean the running's just one aspect of the game but it's like you've got to run
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and then you've got to think with a clear head and you're making you know
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like it's easy to watch uh watch a game at home and see something in slow motion
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and go oh how did the rift miss that that was so forward but you're seeing all this stuff happening a high high
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speed and you're running as well and you've got an earpiece and are people
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talking to you yep they are that would annoy the [ __ ] out of me you get used to
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it um so I mean I I see I review my game I see in slow motion all the camera angles
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everyone can see at home it's like how did I make that call you know you get
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that a lot um so you just have to train yourself to to be better in the moment live and I
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always have this thing about trust and enjoy so like trust your instinct 99 of the time your instinct's correct when
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you've trained well so you've done all the work leading up to the game your
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instinct's often correct because you get into a game where you're like you might
00:18:09
even see on the big screen you know like before passing that Crusaders and the Crusaders Chiefs game you see it on the
00:18:14
big screen afterwards and you gotta you gotta be able to see that process that after the fact go I can't do anything
00:18:20
about it I've missed that but I can't let it influence anything else that happens in the game because it
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just can snowball are your decisions can snowball so yes a lot of it's physical a
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lot of us as you've got to be able to make a you've got to be able to make a
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clear decision so a lot of that's around processes but also you have to have a clear mind
00:18:35
after running eight kilometers in the game it's a 79th minute you've got to be
00:18:39
able to reach that tackle get in a position where you can make a call that could be the game defining
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like you make the call and it's game defining but also not making a Call's
00:18:47
game defining as well so you you need to be able to have a clear head and you can't be fatigued or tired to be able to
00:18:52
make those decisions so we do a lot of practice during the week around that about decision making Under Pressure
00:18:57
decision making under fatigue obviously we do a lot of Clips over the last few years we've actually been engaged with
00:19:02
rugby team so I've been in with the Hurricanes for the last two years and every other professional referees had
00:19:08
one team of bema so I can't I can't ever do anything with that team I can't TMO
00:19:12
referee AR with them but what I can do is I actually go into their trainings and train with them referee their
00:19:17
trainings and for me it's deliberate practice so I'm actually able to get
00:19:21
there with a group of players and we can just go through line out to more line out to
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more and I can do 20 line out to malls in a row it's helping them because that's what their training is it's also
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helping me because otherwise the only time I get to practice this and this is crazy historically the only time that
00:19:35
referees ever get to practice that is in the game so you know how can you it's really hard
00:19:40
to perform like you're in a performance Zone but you're also in a Learning Zone
00:19:44
as well where you want to just be performing so what's what's worked really well with New Zealand Rugby now
00:19:49
is putting us all in those environments we can actually get in that Learning Zone so we can perform on the weekend
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but we still make mistakes right that's all that's always going to happen you
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just want to listen your mistakes make them least critical and and not make the same mistake again I think
00:20:04
that's the main thing you've got to do when you learn and you review stuff yeah
00:20:06
when you do make a mistake how do you how do you reset um I forget where maybe I heard uh
00:20:11
Gilbert and noker on a podcast or maybe it's the Richie mccorm movie or the the
00:20:15
book Legacy which is a great book about the All Blacks but um he talks about players resetting by maybe um like
00:20:20
pulling a blade of grass out or tapping their boots or looking at someone in the
00:20:24
crowd um as a rift you have the same sort of strategy like if you if you make a [ __ ] up how do you how do you pack it
00:20:30
and move on yeah so so mine is mine is sort of like a like a a visualization but self-talk
00:20:37
so my dad when he when he was referring um like he would always he had always had his leg you know that was his sort
00:20:42
of reset and so all those other ones who talked about Dom are really good ones that people find and for me it's that
00:20:48
that one that I sort of meant said before and I've got it engraved in my whistle and it's just trust and enjoy so
00:20:53
trust that in the in the moment you've made the best decision in the moment and
00:20:56
just enjoy the game and so I have that and I don't necessarily have to talk about whistle but like I'll make a I'll
00:21:01
make a mistake on the field I'll see it on the big screen um and I'll just go trust and enjoy move
00:21:05
on and because in that moment as well you can't process whether you're right
00:21:10
or wrong so you like in that moment you might actually not realize you're wrong
00:21:13
yet so I can't keep thinking about that potential era I've got to move on to
00:21:17
next I've got I've got like so I had an example a few years ago where I refereed
00:21:21
Australia versus France and I red carded Marie Cora Beauty in the second minute of the game the second minute of a test
00:21:27
match gave a red card back then red cards were still the whole game so so like this is this is a big momentum
00:21:34
you want to be able to go through a process to be able to make a decision because I don't want to shy away from
00:21:37
big decisions you know that's not that's not me but I want to make the correct
00:21:40
decisions I knew in that moment and I remember so I've got I've got this like
00:21:44
I've got this um I've got a lot of fail safes in my game you know like I always got all these
00:21:48
safety nets that I you know try and plug holes so when I when I find I've made an
00:21:51
error I plug a hole and from what I've learned from from this game so I gave a
00:21:56
red card it was an error but I had 78 minutes of the game to get through and I couldn't think about whether it was an
00:22:02
air or not I knew it was a big decision I worked out after the game that was an ERA but what I was proud about mostly is
00:22:07
that I referred it seven eight minutes purely around what was in front of me and I didn't I didn't let that potential
00:22:13
so what I told myself was was trust and enjoy and and that got me through like one
00:22:18
decision snowballing into another instant to another into another and and so the fail safe that I had from that
00:22:23
now so it used to be so when you have a red and yellow card to referees have these little pocket pouches
00:22:28
so you normally have like it's one side each so red card in the yellow card I've
00:22:32
got to booklet now that you have to open so there's four Pockets so for me to get
00:22:36
to my red card which is on the inside I've got to go through a yellow card on
00:22:40
the outside turn it over there's another yellow card on the outside I've got to
00:22:43
open it there's another yellow card there and then I get to my red so if I ever have to give a red card in the game
00:22:48
My fail safe is that I've gotta I've got to ask myself is this really a red three
00:22:52
times and so that's stuff that you know people will never know that's what
00:22:56
referees do but we don't just go and make a decision like a lot of our decisions are based on a history of
00:23:02
training learning experiences scars on my back a little fail safes like this and that's why people like
00:23:10
if we look at the top referees in the world Wayne Barnes Jaco Piper they they have all those experiences and they've
00:23:15
been able to keep to the top of the game because they've learned from from all
00:23:18
the mistakes and the good games of course that they've done as well yeah yeah that's interesting do you know how
00:23:23
many red cards you've given out in your career is it the sort of is it the sort
00:23:27
of thing that um red cards are a big deal yeah I remember um like I'm not a huge sports fan I watched um like the
00:23:33
Super Rugby final when I watched Eagle black games but I remember like Sunny bill got one a few years ago and I was
00:23:37
like oh that's the first all black red card in x amount of years so it's a when
00:23:41
you give a red card it's a massive staying on someone's reputation right it
00:23:44
is it's really interesting for us to referees too yeah to to take take it on
00:23:48
board as well because when we like okay so how many retards I've given I wouldn't know it's not a
00:23:53
stat I like to keep like I don't I don't know it's not on my wall as a trophy
00:23:57
it's like you know there's the nose tattooed on your arm yeah because I don't like actually yeah with myself in
00:24:02
a game like that like I don't think any referee does um so I reckon I've probably given four
00:24:05
or five um and there was been probably a few years I went without giving one and then
00:24:10
you know then you give one um and it feels good same thing yeah yes I like that then like you give pin we
00:24:18
tries I mean like I highly ever give penalty tries and it's not because they
00:24:21
weren't ones to give in the game um but they just don't really come up that that often but then last week in
00:24:27
South Africa I gave two you know in in one game and you just go through and go Yep this is another one
00:24:32
um I can't I've got to be able to give it this is the rule this is my job is to
00:24:36
refree this game um it's another pin we try yellow card so um and you know the All Blacks they sort
00:24:41
of went through a spout of I think we had one maybe one each year so yeah then we had these Law changes around here
00:24:46
contact so with men like referees are just dishing out red cards all over the place
00:24:49
um I think we're in a space now where um especially with the World Cup coming up
00:24:53
we're in a good space with probably the amount of sanctions that referees are
00:24:56
going to give because it's a big it is a big deal um you know it goes it lasts the whole
00:25:01
game and like going back to that original question like it is a big deal for for refreeze but we understand it's
00:25:07
a big deal for players as well like it goes on this audition so if they ever came into trouble later on like that red
00:25:14
card is against their name um if players are carded multiple times you know they lose contracts you know
00:25:21
like coaches actually can't use them anymore so I think we realized that like
00:25:24
it's quite sensitive for us to be free so while our job is there to to make sure that we make a judgments around the
00:25:30
game um which which may mean giving these cards out you know we need to make sure
00:25:35
that they are good judgments you know Common Sense decisions rather than just just throwing the book and going law 12
00:25:41
BC yep you've failed here's another card that's so much appreciated like you've
00:25:45
got you've got to make these career impact decisions decisions so quickly yeah yeah I mean yeah it's pressure
00:25:53
um you know it's it's saying privilege you know preachers are privilege and all
00:25:57
that kind of stuff and I I do think that you know like when you you run out there's 80 000 people in the stadium
00:26:02
they're watching The Players they're watching the game you're in control of
00:26:04
the game and like like you see at the start you know you want to blend into the background you don't want to be
00:26:08
noticed but sometimes you know you've got to control the game because because
00:26:12
the players are always pushing the boundary um and you know that and you know there's a balance between the spectacle
00:26:18
of the game and also the safety of the players that's what we're always constantly trying to do so you want to
00:26:22
be able to set boundaries and this is one of my my brand that I try and refer you to is that I like to create an
00:26:27
environment that showcases the talents of the players um through you know excellent management
00:26:32
and adjudication and it's something that the spectators love to watch that sort
00:26:36
of I always think that like when I go out that's what I want to do so that's
00:26:39
about the player it's about the game it's about people what people are watching
00:26:42
so sometimes it means you have to make big decisions and then with the pressure of that
00:26:47
um you sort of just get in the zone like you just get in the moment so you don't
00:26:50
you don't think oh [ __ ] this is this is a big pressure moment like okay I need
00:26:54
to start I need I need to switch on you just you just get you just like strap into the roller coaster get into the 80
00:26:58
minutes and you get out the other end it's all like often the night before a
00:27:02
game at 9 00 PM so which would be after the game the next night I'm thinking
00:27:06
okay this time tomorrow night who knows what it's going to be like who knows how the media is going to act who
00:27:11
knows how the game went who knows how many cards I gave that's kind of the the
00:27:14
unknown's exciting and and to be fair one thing I reckon which is happening I've always talked about how my
00:27:19
medicines complemented my refrain is um like while refereeing got me out of the clinics and you know physically you
00:27:26
know get your fit so then you're mentally engaged in clinics yeah there's pressure in rugby but
00:27:33
there's pressure there's more pressure medicine you know there's more there's
00:27:36
more consequences of medicine when I'm dealing with someone's Vision when I
00:27:39
worked in Ed when we were in The Recess Bay you know we've had to deal with I
00:27:42
had to deal with some pretty gnarly stuff now that's pressure that's that's
00:27:45
quick decision making that's um you know having to have conversations with family members about you know and
00:27:53
an injury or um someone that's passed away you know those those types of things gives you
00:27:58
perspective so that when I go out into a Rugby field yes I want to do as well as
00:28:01
I can for the game but I think it helps me with the pressure it helps me with those big those sort of big key moments
00:28:06
yeah yeah about that but that's a good way of looking at it you're not saving a baby's
00:28:09
life are you it's just a sports game yeah like yeah and like sports games entertainment you know
00:28:16
it is entertaining and and it's really important for a lot of people so that's
00:28:19
where I find my meaning around you know what I do like I'm part of the entertainment package part of the sports
00:28:24
package you know people with all the controversy that happened the final people love that final they thought it
00:28:29
was a great game you know like what about it was excellent It's the same thing with but um I thought the first 20
00:28:34
minutes of a springbok New Zealand game last week I was on the sidelines um was one of the best 20 minutes I've
00:28:39
seen the All Blacks play in a long time and like it was exciting watching that again on TV so I love rugby and I love
00:28:45
the sport I love being involved and be engaged in it and you know we get to do all these amazing things and we've got a
00:28:49
World Cup coming up and so that gives you your enjoyment but also I reckon the biggest thing you don't get thanked a
00:28:54
lot and we don't we don't ask the fact as a referee but I remember a few months ago I was working in the
00:29:00
clinic and I'd seen a patient the week before and and they came and saw they
00:29:04
came and saw me back um a week later with given some drops they had an infection
00:29:08
and they just thanked me I like being thank you for you helping me out for last week and I thought it hit me it hit
00:29:13
me around just being appreciated in that role because you don't get really you
00:29:18
don't get appreciated but that's that's the task of a referee right um so as a good little moment there yeah
00:29:25
okay so um how big is um how big is the rule book and what's involved in becoming like a professional World level
00:29:33
referee do you have to like memorize that and do is there an exam do you need to know the rules like inside and out
00:29:40
and so the rule book's probably about that thick right um well for anyone that's listening to
00:29:45
this and not watching it we're talking like a good book length a couple hundred
00:29:49
Pages maybe it's like a healthy size of a wallet like I've got a few notes in
00:29:52
that wallet but you probably only use that much like an even smaller amount like a third of it so there's a lot of
00:29:58
there's a lot of technical stuff in the game that if I if I if we hit a rock
00:30:02
with a game right now we're referring you're my assistant referee and we
00:30:05
refereed a game to the book we would so an average amount of pennies in the game
00:30:10
kind of averages out to between 18 25 but if we refreed by the book we would blow 150 penalties in the game
00:30:17
so you can imagine watching that that'd be terrible oh my God every every 10
00:30:21
seconds we're like okay your hands up to the ground you've gone off feet you
00:30:25
didn't roll away You're offside that's a forward pass that's an icon so you know
00:30:30
as a referee that's what you're trying to manage and that's the sort of best
00:30:32
referees in the world manage that balance of what needs like getting what matters while maintaining flow and you
00:30:39
want to keep the flow in the game but you don't want it to be loose but you don't want to be so restrictive that
00:30:43
you're blowing every every sort of penalty so so what you do so how you get involved in it um like I always say that
00:30:49
it would be easier to start at test match level because the game's a cleaner
00:30:53
teams are well coached players are well drilled when someone does something wrong it sticks out
00:30:58
with a few referee in under 12s game like just bees around any part they're going nuts for this this bullets
00:31:04
it's tough to referee so you're trying to manage that yeah um but yeah you just so you just go out
00:31:09
in the middle like a player and just learn so you read the laws you understand like you understand
00:31:14
um what a player needs to do at a tackle you understand that players need to be on side in the game you understand you
00:31:19
know all those Basics and you just you just Build It Up over years and then you could talk Utah level where it starts
00:31:25
happening quicker you know [ __ ] this is fast okay like that tackle just happened
00:31:28
well always pass sorry to a wing I need to run so you've got to start thinking
00:31:31
of how do I get over to that position over there where I'm in a position where
00:31:36
I've got time and space I've got a clear view to everything and I'm there early enough that I can
00:31:41
see it unfold I'm not coming late because if I come late then they pass and I'm chasing the ball again the other
00:31:46
Wings because you start thinking about your positioning and your running lines so you work on that so you go down to
00:31:51
the park and you know like and I kind of still do this now you put cones out on a
00:31:54
park and I look a bit stupid if you're watching me but I run to a cone set up
00:31:58
my positioning and I do my staircase running zigzag running so that if the players go out to the right so they're
00:32:05
passing out to the wing instead of me chasing a ball what I do is I run forward to get into space so
00:32:11
away from the play and then across so then by the time where I've run across
00:32:15
they've passed and they've run forward they get tackled and I'm there and so
00:32:19
that's how you referee a game you're always zigzagging so you're sort of
00:32:21
running up into the space clear view running across there zigzag staircase running and instead of and not doing the
00:32:29
loop so that's that's the one thing you learn there so you go cool okay I've
00:32:31
learned how to be able to do that so I've got time and space but now the tackle there's so much happening at the
00:32:35
tackle I've got to work out a process where one of my key things I think I need to refrey at the tackle
00:32:40
one of the important things for the games that's that's you getting that law
00:32:43
book down to that sort of third and then how am I going to pack up on this because if I tried to go and people
00:32:48
people normally do like when you start you probably say there's 10 things that
00:32:51
attack or you go okay every tackle I'm going okay tackler's got to roll tackler's got to Res
00:32:56
um bulk Arrow's got a place the ball people have got to enter they've got to
00:32:59
enter through the gate they've got to be on their feet they've got to be staying
00:33:01
on their feet they've got to drive through they can't touch the ball it's
00:33:04
now Ruck you know but you can't Pro you can't do that 150 times in the game okay
00:33:08
quick so you've actually got to break it down even further so how I think how you get to the
00:33:12
professional levels and this is what I've done I think this is why I'm successful as I've broken it so much
00:33:16
it's like down even further that every tackle I basically just look for one thing so if the attack was going forward
00:33:21
so if we've got like Richie McCord hitting the ball up he carries he hits through the d-line the most important
00:33:25
thing probably for that the priority is actually getting an attacker out of the way so every Tech I'll just go okay
00:33:30
tackle release and roll next one tackle release and roll then if Richie McCaw got tackled
00:33:35
backwards and a dominant tackle and someone was isolated over the ball I just I'll just think about okay is that
00:33:40
player held on so I don't need to worry about the tacklers and so I've broken
00:33:44
The Tackle part of the game down to such a small level that it's easier to be
00:33:48
able to process the same thing happens at the scrum so much can happen in a scrum but basically
00:33:52
I just look at um how they kept their height do they have a good bind are they pushing
00:33:57
straight so when you break it down to those simple levels when you're in a big
00:34:01
game when you're under pressure when in the moment that's the kind of stuff you
00:34:05
can come back to rather than trying to read a whole law book yeah but that takes time like I I would tell someone
00:34:10
that's the method that works for me but there'd be many different referees out
00:34:13
in the world that would do something similar but they'd have the different way but you've got to build up to get
00:34:17
there I couldn't I couldn't you couldn't start referring tomorrow I'll give you
00:34:21
that way of me doing it you've actually got to learn it and develop it a lot of
00:34:24
it becomes ingrained yeah subconscious it's all muscle memory so even people always ask like how do you
00:34:30
get out of the way of like in in your position how do you how do you get out of the way of play and it's subconscious
00:34:35
now it's muscle memory because I've I've trained myself with the cones to always
00:34:39
be in the gap between the second and third pillar really really flat I take one step the defense comes up I'm out of
00:34:45
the way so I've I've probably might touch wood only been knocked over twice
00:34:50
in my whole career and like I'm proud of that because I work hard on that where
00:34:53
it's actually really hard in the chaos of a game like not to get not to get hit
00:34:57
at all yeah never a falcon I've never been Falcon but I've been knocked out
00:35:01
what's a falcon when you hit our ball in the head no that's embarrassing that's
00:35:05
going to be turned into a gif whenever you whenever that happens whenever you get hit as a referee in a game you know
00:35:10
because you always have to you do a scrum right and so because there's downtime the camera is always on you and
00:35:16
just like you're always like angry at yourself you're so happy like you've got
00:35:19
to be like I've Got A Smile as well like you can't just be this angry grumpy free
00:35:22
on camera so you zoom in on you and you know you've got to try and just he's
00:35:25
like okay let's just see the scum let's get out of here oh let's crack up since
00:35:29
you mentioned Richard McCourt before um when he was playing a lot of people generally from other countries or other
00:35:34
teams playing against them called him a cheat is that just because he knew he knew the rules very well or yeah so I've
00:35:42
watched a lot of the games that he did and lie he wasn't no he wasn't a cheat he
00:35:47
just he just was a great flank and this is what players should always do and I always so again going back to the um the
00:35:53
key thing around New Zealand Rugby getting referees in with the with the with the teams is that
00:35:58
um it does it frustrates me when I watch a game and I see a player in a great position and now there the balls right
00:36:03
there and they don't know if they can go for it or not you know because they you
00:36:06
know they don't know the rules and so that they've missed the chance to get
00:36:09
their turnover where I think what players like Richie um is really good at um see Khaleesi Michael Hooper like all
00:36:15
the all these great International Players as they know the rules they they know how we interpret the rules as well
00:36:21
they know like what is a no like okay I can't enter the side of the racket 90
00:36:25
degrees but they probably know that you know what I can probably enter at 45 degrees and I'll get away with it so you
00:36:30
know those boundaries um I think that's what players do in all parts of the game and that's why I
00:36:35
encourage and I saw that with the Hurricanes this year the more time I spent with them the more questions I was
00:36:39
getting from players around what I can do what I can what players in particular um so like like the jacklers you know
00:36:45
like um duplicate was he was a guy that he's such a good jacket for the hurricanes and like we worked a lot
00:36:51
around okay what can I do around the pictures that I'm seeing what do what picture because we all work on pictures
00:36:55
of referees what picture I need to show you the referee do I need to show them my hands above my head do I need to do a
00:37:00
star jump before I go on the ball with like no you don't need to do that you
00:37:02
seem to get off the ball and on it and and I was really proud when I saw a lot of turnovers he'd got this year in you
00:37:08
know games at the Hurricanes players like yeah we got that awesome turnover because of of the better understanding
00:37:12
that players um did when they when you know we had that relationship and I think that's
00:37:16
that's an important part of the game we've got these stakeholders on the
00:37:19
field of players coaches and referees I think players and coaches have always worked well together for so so long but
00:37:24
we've always had this bubble as we freeze and and you start a season you might have a meeting at start of the
00:37:29
season with players and coaches but as referees you sort of that bubble goes off that train track goes off and
00:37:34
then all of a sudden we're referring a different game than what the players and
00:37:37
the coaches are coaching um what we're what we've seen this year is because we're more aligned with
00:37:41
working together the game's been better yeah you know if you look at in terms of
00:37:45
controversy actually I believe that this is probably the most uncontroversial Subaru if you
00:37:50
look at the whole season like no one was talking about the referees apart from everyone in the final but after before
00:37:55
that no one was talking about the referees and I thought that was a really successful year for us because
00:38:01
um two parts I think we have a really good sort of referees in New Zealand but also Australia like very experienced a
00:38:07
lot of us are going to the World Cup coming up um but also I think a lot of it's down
00:38:11
to the work that we're doing with the teams and the teams are buying into it
00:38:13
and you know you're seeing that on the field with it with the understanding yeah oh that's great
00:38:19
um and what happens after a game like is there um is there like some sort of Investigation or an inquiry no you know
00:38:28
what I mean like so you think a lot of people would like to investigate nobody you are you sort of like how to account
00:38:33
good or good or bad after a game is that um you know who watches over you and your performance do you get like a
00:38:39
report card great question um old way back in the day you got a report card and had like a percentage like a pass a
00:38:44
fail it was old school but now nowadays um a lot of people ask where's the accountability you know
00:38:51
where's the accountability for those errors that are referee made in the game
00:38:54
and I think sometimes it's unfair for people to say that because there is a lot of accountability
00:38:59
um I guess it's just and this is something we need to think about I guess it's just not public they want they want
00:39:04
public accountability being that players drop from a game that player goes back referring Club rugby but that's not what
00:39:09
happens to players you know they don't necessarily get dropped straight after a
00:39:12
game if they make an error you know if they make multiple heroes in different games and yes and that would happen with
00:39:16
refreeze as well and you know there's been times like you know where I've had
00:39:19
a low point in my career where I was like [ __ ] like I think I'm going to be
00:39:22
dropped I think I'm gonna I'm not gonna give you more games yeah it was you know
00:39:26
there was a there was a period where I just like had um like we it was a Crusaders waratah's game
00:39:33
um we Crusaders went through to score a try um and I think one of the Crusaders just
00:39:38
like talk out Curly Bill we wore the try try goes through halftime go off like and then Crusaders win this tight game
00:39:44
and when they should never they probably should never won that game and then a massive era so we actually missed that
00:39:49
we we talk about processes we didn't have a process where after every try now
00:39:53
I get the TMO to give me an all clear so that they've gone through the footage
00:39:56
but also I look at the big screen instead of drinking water and you know like having a having time off it's like
00:40:01
no no I'm working hard to make sure this try is good and if we'd done that we
00:40:05
would have seen this you know active Foul Play before the trial was scored so we had that massive era so I can't fix
00:40:09
that part of my game and I still use that on my game now but then the next week and the week after
00:40:13
um I just had errors and they just keep following me and I was like man what is going on you know like how am I becoming
00:40:18
so bad at like doing like my games at the moment and so you do reach a low around
00:40:23
uh you you know you lose confidence yeah um you get anxious around it and it's
00:40:28
not a nice spot to be in because actually you do go game to game to game and this is a lot with social media and
00:40:33
all that kind of stuff um comes into it because while you get better at not getting fixed on that and not getting
00:40:41
um you don't find importance in it but it's out there you know so like when you
00:40:44
are fragile when you're in a low point it's really easy not to well it's easy
00:40:48
it's easy to sort of find all that kind of stuff and yeah it just sort of makes
00:40:51
you deep go deeper and we're free it's the same so yeah I overthink things I
00:40:54
guess as well you don't yeah you think it's and you do and you just think like
00:40:57
is it just luck or I always I'm always like quite accountable in terms of like
00:41:01
what I do and I'm like and I always say that look it's you had an error because it was a part
00:41:08
of the game that you didn't have that was that was in your processes fixture
00:41:11
process and you just keep going game and so all those areas you pick up so I've
00:41:14
got this game package now which I reckon is pretty robust like I can reckon I can
00:41:18
handle like most things in a game but they will still be there'll still be points in a game that I haven't thought
00:41:23
about yet or I haven't hit me yet now I reckon the majority of my skills will be
00:41:26
able to handle it on the on the Fly but you never know um I did that like before a World Cup
00:41:31
last at the last World Cup part of my preparation for that was going through all the controversies that had happened
00:41:37
in the previous World Cup or line series and working out okay so this happened to
00:41:42
this referee this is what they got wrong does my processes does my game package account for that and if I said yes tick
00:41:49
okay cool okay I don't need to worry about that being an era that won't be a
00:41:52
controversy to happen one of my games but I'd find something else and be like
00:41:55
okay I haven't I've never had them a game yet I need to fix that I need to
00:41:58
make sure that I have that in my processes so that when it happens in a game I can deal with it
00:42:03
and so like that's that's part of I mean small parts around the preparation
00:42:07
processes which also leads into the accountability so when we when we do do we do a big review after every game
00:42:13
um so I have a coach that watches my game um so they'll go through every decision
00:42:17
that I've done and they'll give me my feedback I'll also watch my game and
00:42:21
what I do is I code it I code all the decisions that I made all the non-decision so decisions that I should
00:42:27
make that I missed what do you mean you code it what does that mean uh so I'll
00:42:30
be on sportscodes a system where you have all the angles so we get all the angles in the game and what I do
00:42:36
um a way to take the fun out of a gamer right yeah yeah I know well I think I've
00:42:40
ruined rugby anyway because I just watched the referee the whole time anyone that knows me probably just
00:42:44
watches the referee you're such a nerdunks to watch a game yeah so hold on stop that rewind that feels like that
00:42:53
for me they're like but also they keep going what do you think about that and
00:42:56
I'm like I'm just having a beer and like my nachos I'm enjoying this yeah so
00:43:00
um but you can't so you code like you'll like I don't know actually line up you
00:43:04
press a button and then like you code that window and that code is that 10 seconds of that clip and you'll comment
00:43:09
on that clip and so I'll comment all my Clips around those yeah how long does it
00:43:13
take you to watch a game it's about four or five hours wow you know like it's a
00:43:17
long time because you know you go through there's 150 tackles you go through every tackle and it's not
00:43:23
necessarily so I'll have these I'll I'll go through the errors and it's not
00:43:27
necessarily that okay these I've made 20 to 20 penalty decisions I'll know
00:43:32
afterwards 80 was I was accurate there were 10 non decisions that I should have made it doesn't necessarily mean that I
00:43:37
should have made 30 decisions in the game but I just things that you picked up and I'll then go through and review
00:43:43
okay okay why did I make those errors was it a positioning thing was it a misunderstanding of the law that'll need
00:43:50
to get better was I blocked um and and that's part of the review to be able to get better so then I'll create a
00:43:57
learning cycle around what I need to do the next week before my before my next game
00:44:02
um and that learning cycle will be around okay look I've decided at what I've what I've found I need to get
00:44:06
better at um create a process to be able to get better at it practice that process and
00:44:10
then go out and deliver it in the game so that's how you just keep getting better game to game to game so so then
00:44:15
the accountability piece comes in where with my coach and my manager and other referees we will send in our Clips to
00:44:22
the referee group and we always have a meeting on a Tuesday and so anything that um like we're all clear on like the
00:44:27
clips we may have um everyone's like yep that was an area like you stuff that up
00:44:30
or we agree with your decision um 50 50 the ones that we we aren't sure on or 50
00:44:36
50 best when we discuss on Tuesday and we'll go through okay what are the learnings for a group here like for me
00:44:42
personally and also the group as well so then if if you're getting games where
00:44:47
and I reckon you could have 10 errors in the game and they might not mean anything you know
00:44:52
like referees heavier is yeah but you're my human you might have one ear in a
00:44:56
game and it changes the game so that there's a different level and strength of an era
00:45:01
so if you if you get multiple we've got to accept that okay you might only refereate 80 accuracy and that's
00:45:06
actually pretty good for referee but if that you know of those of those 10 decisions that you make if the two of
00:45:12
them were were a little knock on that you missed it didn't lead to anything then okay that's fine you know like you
00:45:16
get okay work on getting that knock on next time with those two decisions where I missed necro before a trial was scored
00:45:22
or a missed shoulder charge to the head or that big decisions you've missed in
00:45:26
the game now and you need to get better and and if those decisions continue to happen in the game
00:45:30
then yeah your manager and your coach who hopefully they'll be aligned would
00:45:35
say look mate we need to we need to think about obviously support you work out okay how can we happy to get
00:45:41
better but we can't keep allowing you to heavier as in the game and and so that's
00:45:46
where the accountability comes in so while people don't necessarily see me referring Club rugby the next weekend as
00:45:52
an accountability piece from yeah uh which I love Roofing Club rugby by the way but
00:45:58
um you know we we are there is accountability yeah and and a lot of it too way more than what I think anyone
00:46:04
would expect I think we do need to think about making it a bit more public like I
00:46:07
would love to come out after a game and I sort of did you know after Super Rugby
00:46:10
final saying look I did I got that Full Pass wrong this is why I got the Ford pass wrong I did um an interview with
00:46:16
Mark Stafford and you know sort of saying on scenes radio that you know I went too deep into the d-line so my work
00:46:22
on that week was not taking two three steps into the defensive line when I transitioned through it's just taking it
00:46:26
one step and then I'll be lying to that Ford pass and be able to call it full
00:46:30
pass so there is there is that accountability and and that learning that learning piece there which which I
00:46:35
think is you know really important for us to be able to continue to continue to grow
00:46:40
um and and I think people love rugby the public loves rugby I I feel like I believe there is a bit
00:46:46
of a thirst to to try and like get more from referees and I don't think it's
00:46:50
it's I don't think necessarily they should be interviewing us straight after
00:46:53
a game because I think it's just a bit of a Witch Hunt you know there's a lot
00:46:56
of lightning strikes you know get the referee um you know we just want to know about
00:47:00
all these areas it's like we haven't actually done the six hour review yet we
00:47:03
don't know it's a Lynch Mob at that point but on the on the Monday Tuesday
00:47:06
yeah I want to come out and and I want to you know we we still we still talk about how the lion series finished
00:47:13
um in New Zealand um you know was that the right way for it to have ended by the referee people want to know the
00:47:17
answer so I'd love for us to be able to come out and say yes that was correct
00:47:21
because this was the law and then people can go cool okay let's debate the law
00:47:25
whether the law is right or wrong or we also want to say look yeah we're accountable we got that wrong we messed
00:47:30
it up this is what we're going to do to to get better at it and then people go
00:47:34
okay cool and refreeze referees accountable and I've said they're sorry and you know you can't always keep
00:47:39
saying you're sorry but you know at least as part of the game and and I know
00:47:43
that at this world cup we're looking at um you know maybe well these are whistle
00:47:48
watch Nigel Owens who's a famous uh Welsh for free yeah he's the is he the
00:47:53
um the gay one with the with the fierce one-liners he he is he's hilarious when
00:47:57
you catch him the best one he is the greatest I've had a privilege to work with him
00:48:02
many times as his assistant referee but also he's been my assistant referee when
00:48:06
I refer to game I remember my first six nations game was in Rome Olivia's France
00:48:09
and then I was standing there at this moment with a TMO locking a big screen I had Nigel lines next to me like I was
00:48:15
kid back then you know like it's my first six nations International game at that level so that was kind of sort of
00:48:20
pinching myself but um yeah so he's he sort of got he's got a massive media
00:48:24
presence he's well respected loved around the world so I think what he's
00:48:27
going to do is and he's kind of been doing it already with his whistle watches coming out and and those big
00:48:32
decisions that everyone are talking about saying like this is the law this is this is what was decided this is the
00:48:36
quick decision so um I like how you know the age of media and social media podcasts you know
00:48:42
everyone's getting out there and you know explaining more around the other side of you know this protected Beast it
00:48:48
seems what a refereeing what a referee is but I don't think we I don't want to
00:48:51
be protected you know we want to get out there yeah I I think yeah transparency is good because no one's got any none of
00:48:56
us have got any idea really and you you have you've read that book yeah none of
00:49:01
us have read that book we do do law exams about it as well by the way like I don't know whether that's funny so yeah
00:49:07
and they're always a little bit hard to do too um so you dropped the name uh
00:49:10
Nigel Owens just a second ago what about Wayne Barnes if you had much when Barnes
00:49:14
became uh New Zealand Public Enemy Number One after the World Cup in 27 yeah where he was he was riffing the
00:49:21
French All Blacks game which we lost um and emphatic fashion really like they just they just everything went their way
00:49:28
in the second half um I mean there was an awful you look back now on reflection it was an awful
00:49:34
time for him like the backlash was uh I mean what what you had um and we'll get
00:49:38
to this after the Super Rugby final with the Crusaders and Chiefs it's probably
00:49:42
like a people in the river compared to what he had well and that's the difference that's what I would that's
00:49:46
what I realized when I went to my first World Cup is that the difference is The Game's the same yeah the Stadium's the
00:49:51
same but the amount of the millions of people that are watching is very different you know so especially caught
00:49:57
a farm like that so Wayne Barnes um and and it was it was great like I got to a position when I got I was sort of doing
00:50:03
test matches I knew how to referee test match well so I actually went back and I
00:50:07
watched that game and and honestly like he nailed that game from every free point of view like you couldn't referee
00:50:12
that game any better I was like when is this fordpass coming out because he's
00:50:15
absolutely smoking this game and and and and I want to say it now and I'm sure he
00:50:20
would probably never say that but any referee in that position like you'd miss
00:50:23
that Ford pass because you can't keep up with a French fly that runs up and then
00:50:27
does a pass you know like odd if I was referring that game I'd be in the same
00:50:29
position as he was and I'd be I'd be criticized but the benefit now is that
00:50:33
we actually get to check that stuff before um after a try scored so they actually
00:50:36
back then they couldn't use the TMO right so you know his hands were tied um
00:50:40
unfortunately in that situation but so do I know a Barnes he he's our leader
00:50:44
he's one of the greatest referees I think it's ever been him and Nigel Owens
00:50:48
but Wayne Barnes is a great friend and you know we we catch up a lot he always hosts us around at his place when we're
00:50:54
up in the northern hemisphere he always gets he loves getting his kiwi guys around we always bring a bottle of Pinot
00:50:58
Noir from New Zealand his wife always Cooks a lovely meal like his kids are there and that's that's the thing around
00:51:04
our group of referees at that level we we travel a lot together we're in those
00:51:09
High intense moments together we spend two weeks in Argentina together in South Africa we are on face time to our family
00:51:14
and friends together we we see things like um I remember um you know Angus Gardner and we were
00:51:20
seeing like his boy catch one of his first fish when we were overseas together which is a sad part around like
00:51:25
what we do as well you miss those moments yeah um but you know we're so tight because
00:51:29
of those moments as well so we've got 12 referees he's going to walk up um I think if five assistant referees
00:51:36
seven seven tmos and it was such a tight group not because we have to because of
00:51:40
all the you know things coming our way but we've just spent so much time together we understand each other but
00:51:44
really like a team on your own yeah yeah we're a massive team on our own like we
00:51:47
love to like a little bit of steam off enjoy each other's company um we all play golf together we you know
00:51:52
like to go out together have you know great meals together and and Wayne Barnes are one of them like great like
00:51:57
such a great great individual human being so have you did have you I mean maybe even on a night out after a couple
00:52:03
of Pinos have you had a chat to him about I suppose like in 27 it was sort of um
00:52:08
social media wasn't what it is now maybe it was in the early days of Facebook I
00:52:12
can't really remember are you though I don't know Myspace I feel like people release
00:52:18
accessible than what they are now it's easier to track people down but I mean
00:52:23
what sort of told did that take on as mental health have you got any idea oh I've missed a massive time and like
00:52:27
credit to him now like to be where he is now as the best referee in the world you
00:52:31
know he's got through all of that um and you know obviously it just it comes down to a lot of obviously support
00:52:36
that he is from family um especially his wife and friends like what a [ __ ] time like terrible time and
00:52:43
yeah and I think he he he talks about it and like he's so open about it now he
00:52:47
it's quite a good story when he when he does like his uh as after dinner speeches and I think he wore a wig for
00:52:53
um the rest of the tournament for the semis in the finals because he had to but he had to I'd like a disguise he had
00:52:58
to wear a disguise because like he was he's well known like he's he's
00:53:01
recognizable especially over there yeah and I think you know like new zealanders
00:53:05
and a lot of other people you know they like it was it was really really bad afterwards so
00:53:11
um he's he's taken all of those learnings and and obviously bottle that up learned from it and you know his has
00:53:17
been I think he became the most kept his International test referee if there's
00:53:20
ever been um at the start of the year so yeah um yeah really really hard for him but
00:53:26
like he's been so open about it shared it with us so you know we can learn about it for us and you know but there's
00:53:32
there's a lot of examples of this from it's almost like it'll happen to me if
00:53:37
it hasn't happened to me already but it'll happen to me again the more the
00:53:40
more the better you become the more higher games you do the more trust the bosses have to put you on the big games
00:53:48
um and whether you're right or wrong whether you're right or wrong like it'll
00:53:52
be controversial so it'll be there'll be one team that doesn't think you did well
00:53:55
one nation that doesn't think you did well and one thing that one one nation
00:53:59
that probably thought you did okay so he's done that you know we've had um with Bryce Lawrence you know the same
00:54:04
thing with South Africa after his quarterfinal we're basically you know he couldn't go back to South Africa and and
00:54:10
it was close to sort of his career slowly sort of finished after that and you know he's been really open about it
00:54:15
but you hear about these these guys I remember we were in Dubai at a camp and we'd never really sort of had
00:54:21
everyone talk about it officially but we need to hear that kind of stuff like and
00:54:24
I always say this you've got to be open about anything communication is key yeah
00:54:27
not just on the field but off the field with experiences and in life and of course it works in rugby and we had
00:54:32
these individuals get up there we had the crazy bear the Bryce Lawrence as the Wayne Barnes Nigel Owens get up there
00:54:38
and tell us about their moments their experiences where we're [ __ ] at the fan
00:54:43
and and it all came crashing down for them and and what they did to learn to get to get back up front because
00:54:49
um I've I've had moments like that where games have happened and you've had all
00:54:53
the controversy we talk about Super Rugby final there's been games before that and I'm going into one of the
00:54:57
biggest world cup soon I've got I've got massive pool games um and if all goes well you know you do
00:55:02
some playoff games it's a lose-lose for referee right but I love I love that I love that challenge
00:55:07
but you'll never get out smelling like roses and if you if you think you're
00:55:11
going to do well you're just you're sitting yourself up to failure so you
00:55:13
just got to go in there into 10 fight do as best as you can knowing that no one else can do as good a job as you can
00:55:20
and then trust and enjoy whatever it is it is yeah cause I'm a I'm a big
00:55:24
believer in um yeah learning learning from learning from failure and it making you a better person but the Wayne Barnes
00:55:30
thing like in 2017 he like he didn't do anything [ __ ] wrong he didn't do it
00:55:34
you know he wore the this this awful um you know backlash and uh through no fight of his own it's horrible but you
00:55:42
know that leads us to like the Super Rugby thing this year which um you you shared a lot of the DMS on on
00:55:48
Instagram why did you decide to do that it's a good question I I um you always get DMS after a game right
00:55:58
and no one ever no one ever congratulates you about a great game being you know like you don't
00:56:03
get those demons it's always about you get a handful of you know the normal stuff that you get
00:56:08
if you've had a really bad game previously to the final you get maybe 10 or 20 and you're like okay yeah maybe
00:56:14
maybe I did like you know Screw some stuff up but then like it was just after that
00:56:18
final I knew that we made it like a few years right like we missed a Ford pass and I still argue like I got it wrong
00:56:25
but it didn't lead to a try that everyone's talking about you know there
00:56:28
was still there was a turnover it was a restart and play then we had a try after
00:56:32
you know so we got it wrong we we got the red card wrong um it should have been a red card
00:56:38
instead of a yellow like we now know that so you know we went both ways but apart from that
00:56:43
like I I followed processes around giving the yellow cards when I needed to around repeat infringements I talked to
00:56:50
the captains I always go through a process go through warnings three penalties give you a warning yes you've
00:56:55
got time to talk to the players then when you give the yellow card you're unexpects it when you get a silicon at
00:57:00
the end of the game you know Sam Kane coming aside you know it's like by then my job as I saw her to give this
00:57:07
yellow card this is part of the game if I was soft here because I've already and
00:57:11
this is this is the this is the mountain I felt against I was like man so much is
00:57:14
going against the Chiefs here and you know when I reviewed the game I actually went through the review and you
00:57:19
know I put my hands up for a few things but I actually thought it was an okay performance like it wasn't it it didn't
00:57:25
it didn't it didn't um account for the backlash that I got the backlash was just unprecedented I
00:57:31
couldn't believe it like my my phone was just going absolutely ballistic and and so that was that was I think the
00:57:38
crazy thing about it and um I guess like it was people just loved the final I could feel there's a buzz
00:57:44
about it there was New Zealand I think all of New Zealand wanted the Chiefs to win apart from Canterbury you
00:57:51
know like so that was part of as well it was such an emotional passionate response and you know it's like we're
00:57:56
we're charged to do these types of games you know and that's what I loved about
00:57:59
doing about it and so all of the stuff came in after the game and oh there's
00:58:02
some real bad stuff you know there was some oh mate so I've got some of it um
00:58:06
some of it typed out I was when we when we locked on this interview I thought uh it might it might
00:58:12
be quite fun to do like a Jimmy Jimmy Fallon Mean Tweets thing and get some get you to read some of them out but as
00:58:16
I was typing them out like some of it's just not funny like it's like it's it's rude it's homophobic
00:58:22
it's inappropriate if if anyone wrote messages like this to direct it at a prime minister
00:58:28
um there'd be police investigations and they'll be tracking the person down but
00:58:31
it's I mean I'll share some of them uh you should have been on um on that Titanic submarine you asked
00:58:38
why that one hit me that one hit me because I couldn't believe how much social media like the you know and what
00:58:46
what an awful event that happened and there was so much bad stuff about that at the same time as well and then when
00:58:52
that happened like I thought that was awful that was really bad that one um that one I remember I remember like
00:58:59
going through and I was like oh wow I think I stopped on that one I was like that that hurt that one hurt yeah it's
00:59:05
just it's it's really mean on a whole lot of different levels um there's one
00:59:09
for just I'm sure you can shake this off South Island ref cheat [ __ ] off yeah
00:59:13
yeah um bro honestly retires some outrageous calls from you are you not replying to
00:59:18
me because you have Razor's [ __ ] in your mouth it's keyboard Warriors but it's like
00:59:27
there's a little profile picture next to it so they're doing it on their own
00:59:30
accounts you can click through his profile is probably something like Good Vibes only yeah you're like yeah love my
00:59:36
family love my kids the um like you know I make it easier by like I like and like it's it's really
00:59:44
funny you know um I always think like my name I've got a lot of apostrophe one Apostrophe a lot
00:59:49
of E's a lot of F's you know it's actually quite hard to I want my and
00:59:52
this is my account is public right yeah and I'll talk about that why later but
00:59:58
um you know for you to be so mad at what I did that you've got to actually search
01:00:02
and type my name out right get the apostrophe right get the odk the 2E is not money f2fs then the E and then so
01:00:09
you found that I thought I found Ben okay good I've got them and now I've
01:00:13
been to like title that I'm just like you know what wow that's crazy you've
01:00:16
got energy you've got energy yeah I'll read some more reasons one of my favorites that you shared um seriously
01:00:22
mate you need to take uh you need some [ __ ] glasses you tear and then obviously I read this the other night
01:00:29
test yeah [ __ ] I went through these the other night and I remember like I sort of did a computer
01:00:36
I didn't really register that one yeah I realized that it's like like his his
01:00:40
Auto creep got was wrong three times um you're a dead [ __ ] yeah like they like some of these are just I mean and
01:00:49
we're talking about um it was the physical by the the difference about this stuff like I can I can get about
01:00:55
the ones around South Island riff and go back to Primary School that kind of stuff like you get that normally like
01:01:01
you suck like in the language like yeah that's fine but like there was the physical the like people talking about
01:01:06
King hitting you on the street and stuff like that yeah slitting your throat like
01:01:09
if I find you you know that that was and I was never worried for my safety but but you just never know right like even
01:01:16
you just never know um yeah because I mean you're like you're you're a smart guy and you're um
01:01:21
you're a reasonable guy and you're a measured guy um I mean everyone has a bad day or a day where
01:01:28
you're feeling a bit weak and a bit vulnerable so you have a bad game you're
01:01:31
feeling a bit [ __ ] about yourself anyway I don't know and then you read a barrage
01:01:35
of messages like this it could be detrimental to someone's mental health I know you can laugh it off but there's
01:01:41
got to become a point where it's yeah well one day it will one day like um and and I think that uh something
01:01:49
that we need to in like New Zealand Rugby is very supportive around that kind of stuff but I think we can do a
01:01:52
lot more especially with the referring side because I think what we do at the moment is we rely on the individuals to
01:01:57
be strong-willed and and you know like to have a um you know to not have any mental
01:02:04
health issues but like that that won't happen one day you know they'll be there
01:02:07
someday some something like that will happen and it's only getting worse like
01:02:10
this stuff's getting worse I've seen it slowly get worse over the last few years
01:02:13
on Twitter um with games I've been involved in or other games I've seen with Wayne Barnes
01:02:18
with with Nick beer you know like all these things that are happening and it is getting worse and and I I'm worried
01:02:24
and I think that's part of I mean that's part of why I wanted I wanted people to
01:02:28
see what it's like and actually what is happening behind the scenes so you know
01:02:33
people see they ask us like do you even train for games like we see you for 30 minutes what happens after well you know
01:02:39
it's a great we such a great job that I had but I wanted people to see that this
01:02:43
is what we also put up with this is you know mental health is a massive thing um not just men but for everyone in New
01:02:49
Zealand at the moment as well so I do feel a little bit of responsibility with my my position in
01:02:54
New Zealand Rugby but also World rugby to show a better leadership in this area I think sometimes potentially what might
01:03:00
stop other referees doing it is that they're worried about it may affect my appointments
01:03:05
um it may affect the next game that I get it may affect um I have to if it's about a player I
01:03:10
might have to refree this player again but I kind of while I care about all that stuff and it's important that I do
01:03:15
I always think that the cream's gonna rise to the Top If I'm good enough to do
01:03:18
a game or give you a game but this sort of outweighs that kind of surflight um being able to so
01:03:24
I did think about it a lot like it wasn't just a on a whim I'm just gonna
01:03:28
like release all these things I was I was on a long flight from because the day after Sunday I flew straight to
01:03:35
Toulouse so um I had a flight to Dubai and I was sitting there like reviewing my game
01:03:41
finished my review and then I had a real think about you know because it was all happening I had
01:03:46
a real think about okay like how do I feel what I want to do about this should I do
01:03:51
anything should I just leave it and I was like you know what no I'm not going
01:03:54
to because I think this is actually this a line has been crossed with the number
01:03:58
but also what was said and I'm going to do something about it and I'm going to
01:04:03
pin a really well constructed message note I'm gonna do it on my Instagram I'm
01:04:08
going to show people what it's like I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I made a point of
01:04:14
um by blurring out the person's name like because it was the point wasn't
01:04:17
about naming shaming that person which you can't you know people are usually
01:04:21
yeah you should be doing that but yeah I I noticed that too and I respected that
01:04:25
it's not like you were highlighting people so that people could then turn on
01:04:28
them yeah yeah and like I mean because I know that I've sort of released a few
01:04:32
things I like before like on like my stories and stuff but I just wanted people to see that this is the stuff
01:04:37
that referees are getting after games and this is what we're normalizing if I
01:04:42
don't see anything about it um so yeah so I remember I remember doing it I had it ready I had the post saved and
01:04:51
I was sitting there and I was in I was in transit and I had all my mates around me because we're all flying off together
01:04:56
and I was like do I do it like am I am I going to do this like what what what is
01:05:00
going to happen and I had no idea what was going to happen What was the outcome going to be could I be
01:05:06
canceled you know like could this backfire so much on me that that could be me done referring and I was like oh
01:05:13
it might be like I'm taking a massive risk um but I thought no this is this is an
01:05:17
angle where it's not about feeling sorry for me this is about this is this is
01:05:21
happening and we need to do something about it um so I remember like walking I was on
01:05:25
the line catching my flight to Toulouse and I was next to my mate um I was like Paul
01:05:30
I'm about to drop something and I'll win I'll win post and then I got on my flight and then had no Wi-Fi
01:05:39
or anything so I just sat there which was I don't I think it was night time New Zealand time well I don't know
01:05:46
and then when I when I landed um just that ping ping ping ping ping ping ping the phone just went absolutely
01:05:53
ballistic and and it was it was really nice there was a lot of there's a lot of
01:05:58
obviously people checking in they wanted to make sure that first and foremost I was okay and were you you were okay yeah
01:06:02
no I was totally fine and and and I I liked how I felt then because I realized that I'd almost got onto another level
01:06:08
of being accepting of of where I am in the game and confident in my game and my style and my Rugby because I wasn't
01:06:15
affected At All by it um because I was confident in okay the game the game that I delivered and
01:06:21
um so that was actually a nice feeling to go through to realize do you never know where you're at until you get to do
01:06:26
a stock take and that was my stock tank so people were like from all across rugby walks of life
01:06:34
um um politicians um a lot of really lovely people reached out to me which was incredible
01:06:41
but the best people that reached out to me and so it went from like for every one message post game it was a nice
01:06:46
message to 20. negative messages that you read out there yeah it flipped that like I was still getting negative
01:06:52
messages but I was getting like like 30 messages to one you know it was just it was incredible that um I guess the
01:06:58
support that came out and it wasn't about getting support for me but for referees and for the for what we do and
01:07:02
for realizing wow like that is crazy and the best but the best people that got in touch with me were
01:07:10
young referees and you know it still happens now like yeah that's called young referee will message me and say
01:07:15
Ben thank you thank you for what you did thank you for standing up for me I was about to give up on the game I got
01:07:22
abused last week by parents on the sideline I'm 15 years old I don't want
01:07:26
to do this anymore and you know but now you've given me courage that okay it happens to the best
01:07:31
in the world and actually you you've taken a stand for us like thank you so I
01:07:35
I received a lot of those types of messages and and I thought you know what I that that is why I'm happy I did it you
01:07:42
know for those younger referees coming through to show that like I I see you guys I'm supporting you it happens with
01:07:48
me um and I want to I want to show you that it's not right and I'm actually doing
01:07:52
something for you guys in a position of power and um the position I have in referring so
01:07:57
um that was that was kind of I sort of worked out why I did it after I did it you know this is always yeah if
01:08:05
you follow your gut generally it's um oh yes it's the right decision but um yeah
01:08:09
I don't know if someone like me that's I enjoyed watching the game but I've got
01:08:11
no skin in the game either way I didn't really care who who won or who lost um I didn't even know your name to be
01:08:16
honest and I suppose that's the same with most people with the referee as I was saying before so if you don't want
01:08:21
that yeah but um I I found it alarming I was quite alarmed by the messages and just and and just the the Deep nastiness
01:08:29
of some of them as well I think there's one willing willing you to get cancer
01:08:32
yeah it's like um and you know so I had a few I don't I don't have a lot of like a lot of my
01:08:40
Instagram stuff on my Social Media stuff is rugby next I want people to see what
01:08:43
we do and our job there's a bit of family and friends but I was really worried because like a second to last
01:08:49
posted my sister and at night I message her and untaggering it all and I was like okay I hope you're not getting
01:08:55
anything and she she received one message from Fiji apparently and she said actually wasn't that bad but like I
01:09:01
can deal with it and and Through Time experience I've been able to deal with
01:09:05
it but when like I'm worried for friends family Partners when it's directed at
01:09:12
them they haven't gone through they haven't gone through the years of it or the
01:09:16
years of sort of slow habitualization towards it so then you know it comes to him straight away at
01:09:21
this level I can be really sort of sharp um so I was really worried for like sort
01:09:27
of friends and family around that but um they're all fine and yeah and what you
01:09:31
say you can deal with it and you can but you shouldn't have to though I suppose
01:09:34
that's the that's the point um have you always been like quite resilient or is this just it's just this
01:09:39
like a calloused skin thing that you've developed over years and years and years
01:09:43
I'm sure I don't know um I'm sure it's just been developed over time like you sort of have to like you
01:09:50
get older and you're more mature now you know you sort of you grow up a little
01:09:52
bit you go through life experiences um and you you know you realize what is important I think my medicine's helped
01:09:58
out a lot with that sort of through all those experiences like you actually really realize what you know the
01:10:03
important things that you should be actually spending your mental strength on yeah
01:10:08
um but but it's always hard you know even I find myself slipping up every now
01:10:10
and then like it's hard to you know back in the day you just had to like walk
01:10:14
past the new stand and not pick up a newspaper we're now um you know it's not as easy as saying
01:10:18
well why don't you just delete all social media well we we live on it now like it's how we I don't I I don't know
01:10:25
anyone's cell phone number anymore like you message me yeah yeah Facebook so it
01:10:28
kind of feels like um like victim blaming in a way doesn't it yeah a little bit it would be easy to do that
01:10:34
but I'm such an avid golfer like my golf swing would be terrible if I didn't go
01:10:38
through like all my golf videos every video on Instagram you know my reels and stuff and I wouldn't be able to send all
01:10:42
my mates all these memes I want to send them so it's um it's one of those things that
01:10:46
look uh you know you you take those risks and then you sort of experience I went through but um the the public yeah
01:10:52
this public support was amazing I did a few interviews afterwards um and this is probably almost the first
01:10:57
one talking in detail about it which is pretty cool because a few weeks after like things have settled down
01:11:03
um but it's really sort of changed I guess the way I hope people see referees
01:11:07
in public and what we do um and you know I spent I train with the All Blacks last week and even seeing a
01:11:13
lot of the the Chiefs and the Crusaders players in there you know it's good to
01:11:16
see them again and you know they're super supportive of everything as well and realizing that
01:11:20
um you know we're part of the game um and you know we've got to be able to
01:11:24
keep the game the the sport that we love in New Zealand then you know you need to
01:11:27
refreeze as well yeah did you get on what the players well do you need to sort of keep um like a boundary where
01:11:33
you can't be sort of mates with them you know what I mean because I think like
01:11:36
because it blew the lines if you're too friendly with them I'm a lot older than rugby players now
01:11:41
you know you sort of you sort of when I started they're older than me and you
01:11:45
you come through like a professional rugby players what is it what is it now like 20s yeah 20s you know so I'm 34 you
01:11:51
know I'm like Grandad compared to these guys now so you just you have a professional relationship you know so
01:11:56
whether you obviously keep that on the field before the game after the game if you bumped into them like if you're at a
01:12:01
restaurant or something like quick chat yeah maybe maybe or you just you know blow the whistle at them show them the
01:12:07
card or you just get on with with your meal and stuff so um yeah it's the same thing if you often
01:12:12
stand in the same hotels as players but um what I love about rugby is is every player is is really respectful on and
01:12:20
off the field and you know that's that's what's the Fantastic thing around sort
01:12:24
of being in the sport is um you know they're really interested in what you're doing
01:12:28
um and really interested in getting to know you like it is you know they'll spend time and I think a lot of the all
01:12:33
backs like that a lot of players around the world like that every player what What's um I know you said you worked
01:12:38
with the Hurricanes this year Dane Coles seems really really pretty he's one like
01:12:42
it he's the best guy ever cozy um I'm a hurricane if I support any team it's the hurricane I was living in
01:12:50
Palmerston North when Super Rugby started summer hurricane supporter but I I I yeah I just love how niggly he is he
01:12:56
he I love how niggly is but he's everyone goes I mean how do you along with Coles you're like surely he's a
01:13:00
pain in the ass right he is the best guy ever to deal with him is he in what way
01:13:04
well so he is he's a competitor and he's niggly on the field to players you know
01:13:09
he like niggled Cody Taylor like um when they when they played the in the Crusaders game a few weeks ago and you
01:13:14
know I love that you know he's just that that sort of dynamic nature and he's
01:13:17
obviously incredible player and so I love that so like he'll go niggle someone and then smile at you and like
01:13:22
I'm like mate you didn't do it you didn't do anything illegal so I can't do
01:13:25
anything about it and like we've had Runnings before we've had to Yellow Card
01:13:28
him and like he's pointed at my yellow card like what is that for and uh you
01:13:31
know he was just saying that he wanted a little bit of fun I was like mate not tonight
01:13:34
got off the field so he's he's a great he's a great player and you know you get
01:13:40
a lot of that I think we need more of that you know it's such a professional
01:13:42
game everyone's got there um you know recovery garments on and they sort of you know leave the field
01:13:48
and they go up and the bus where he I think you know he enjoys rugby he loves it and um you know argue you know
01:13:54
playing some of his best rugby right now any any other good memorable back chat moments from you or the players like the
01:14:00
the Cozy one you just said I I try not to like I love to get I engage with players but I try to not I can even so
01:14:08
when I when I grew up refereeing you'd always try and take bits of other referees that you watched
01:14:13
um so the positioning of like a Glenn Jackson or the game awareness of a Craig Joubert or the technical skills of a
01:14:19
Bryce launch you know you try and put them into your game the one line is from Nigel Owens
01:14:23
although being the funny guy is everything I realized early on when I was young I'm not a funny funny guy so
01:14:28
just just keep that like don't keep that like just don't do it and so leave that
01:14:32
to leave that to Nigel um so I don't try and I don't try and do it but it's hard like you hear a lot of
01:14:37
stuff and I mean I can't really pick up anything now but guys like like Joe Marla
01:14:41
um he's an English prop is just just like I'm trying to set a scrum and Crouch behind to see it and he's talking
01:14:47
about what he's having for dinner that night and the red wine that he's drinking and I'm trying out talking I'm
01:14:51
trying to get through my binder set cool and I'm about to crack up and I'm miked
01:14:54
up he's not miked up so they can't hear him okay you know they'd hear me if I if
01:14:58
I stuff the scrum call up but um I think the game of rugby needs characters yeah
01:15:03
like all these players that we have um and I think we still do you know we've got excellent players but I think
01:15:07
you need new guys that are sort of um you know leading the way and having fun as well yeah geez I realize we've talked
01:15:13
for an hour and a quarter how are you doing for time you've got a niece's
01:15:15
birthday to be my it was my happy birthday no it's my my nephew's birthday
01:15:19
but um no no I got so many um like fan questions or listening questions okay um do referees
01:15:27
have fans or groupies any any ladies no no um you got to think yeah you gotta think so
01:15:37
there's there's 30 players on the field um plus the squad right so the other big
01:15:44
guys the big muscles the the nice haircuts so they'll be going through their DMS first slightly into the game
01:15:49
and then and then there's probably like some good looking Silver Fox coaches
01:15:53
that you know that maybe they started those teams and then there's us the referees at the bottom so I don't think
01:15:58
we don't trickle down to to that far yeah yeah um I need to need to build it up for the
01:16:04
referees out there have you ever been badly by the way what is your relationship status in case anyone's
01:16:09
listening to this and they're like I might um some nice single and like that
01:16:12
I mean because it's hard you know when you're when you're traveling um all the time overseas you know you
01:16:17
never really home so uh that's uh that's always the niggly part so that's the one
01:16:22
great thing around I think a lot of the um the referees they've got amazing husbands wives
01:16:27
um who you know like uh just incredible when we're away and um yeah I think it's a difficult role
01:16:32
sometimes for that but when you're home you're home and you have a great life at
01:16:35
home um you know probably catching up on all the school drop-offs and stuff like that
01:16:38
so um yeah there's the is the status but no please don't slide into my DMs around
01:16:42
that have you ever been badly injured or accidentally tackled by a player no um I mean I've seen a lot of referees
01:16:50
that have but it's kind of like yeah you said before like about the Falcon thing
01:16:53
does this mean you're in the wrong position or yes I work hard in my positioning not for that to happen
01:16:57
there's there's times where you're close and you sort of suck everything in and
01:17:00
you try and get out of the way um but no touchwood so far I've got a game next week in Scotland
01:17:05
um I have not been uh knocked over yet but um I laugh every time every three does uh do you get nervous before a big
01:17:12
game or all the time yeah yeah but I love that what does that look like I I think I saw a Dan Carter clip once and
01:17:18
he talked about vomiting before most of the all black games yes I don't have any
01:17:20
like any physical sort of manifestations but um I it's it's all it's all just it's
01:17:29
the nervous excitement so like if I'm if I'm nervous for a game it means that I'm
01:17:33
prepared I'm ready I'm excited and I care and I know that if I prepared really well for the game
01:17:38
um then I'm confident so all I need to be is confident walking out of that field
01:17:43
and just what will we will be I've prepared well no matter what happens in the field I can deal with it
01:17:48
so then like I know I'll do a lot like I could talk to Gilbert and I could be
01:17:51
brought up before around that and I do a lot of my um front loading in the week around all the prep but I'm doing
01:17:55
physical mental prep so about by Friday I'm pretty good to go and Saturday I
01:17:59
don't even think about the game I'm I'm ready to get down to the field and it
01:18:03
keeps my my mind free um so that's like that for yeah so so for me that's that's a that's a big part
01:18:10
of how um you know I'll I'll lead into I guess I saw that side of it um which I think
01:18:17
which I think is important yeah it's funny how the parallels between what you
01:18:20
what you do and what the players do as well in terms of like the build up the preparation and then the game itself and
01:18:25
then the you know the post-mortem or post analysis that's pretty similar we just do it
01:18:30
um at a different level not as many players um and you know the preparation's
01:18:35
slightly different like we've got a little bit more autonomy around or how we do it so we don't have to be on the
01:18:39
bus this time we never have to have training at this time we can actually decide like we want we're going to do
01:18:44
we've got to do the gym at some stage today we'll do it now and then we'll go
01:18:48
and do something else after and we'll you know we'll do some do it like that
01:18:50
so it's really good when you get to travel and you get to sort of stay with you know
01:18:54
um your friends and and your other referees overseas you get to sort of sort of manage with that which is really
01:18:59
really good yeah can you ever hear any abuse from the stands no never no no because you like it you see like you've
01:19:04
got someone and you've got to do yeah right right so that that is blocked you've got your assistant referring your
01:19:08
TMO talking into your ear the whole time and then um the uh the system referees on the
01:19:15
sideline like in Christchurch you're really close to the to the um fans and and Hamilton really close to the fan so
01:19:21
you hear it you hear it then um so you sort of hear a lot of the abuse there but in the middle uh you
01:19:27
know everything's great so it's like ignorance Bliss again it's perfect is
01:19:30
match fixing a thing in rugby no no you've never been like approached no one's ever asked you I thought that's
01:19:36
sort of an Indian thing mainly with Cricket isn't it I think uh yeah like it's football I know that like football
01:19:41
and I've talked to a lot of umpires um I still get you know New Zealand umpire around that um and it definitely
01:19:47
happens and they've got a lot of structures in place that have something like that occurs and they
01:19:52
um you know obviously go through the sort of anti-corruption process but um I mean Rugby's big enough like
01:19:58
there's a lot of money involved in rugby I'm surprised that it hasn't happened
01:20:01
yet um and uh look I mean it's got to happen at some stage right you know it'll be a lot of just no gold
01:20:09
watch I'm wearing so there's a lot of chiefs fans will be calling [ __ ] on
01:20:12
this ad so he was definitely paid well it's like I'm still waiting for that
01:20:16
money so that obviously wasn't like the metaphor scene didn't really work out
01:20:19
that well because I haven't been paid for it yet yeah yeah um have you ever lost your call with the
01:20:23
player yeah have you yeah I have and and I'm not proud of that like it's
01:20:28
I mean it happened happened a few weeks ago in a Highlanders game with the captain and you know you sort of
01:20:33
I sort of you know so I always like to engage I'm never dismissive I want to be
01:20:37
being being on the field you know like I'm I'm this happy guy that you know I
01:20:40
can always you can always chat with me but there's a moment where I went in the
01:20:44
red and I had a massive guy at this Captain around sort of approaching me and um I thought he was out of line but you
01:20:50
know when I reviewed it I was just man that came across so bad like I didn't
01:20:54
need to do that um you lit your I lit my emotions what did you do exactly oh look well I didn't
01:20:59
like it was just I basically just gave them a telling off you know like a big school teacher finger in the face and
01:21:04
it's so not me it's not my style but I I realized like I was I was annoyed about
01:21:09
a decision that we'd made as a team 10 minutes earlier and this is the whole
01:21:12
thing around don't let things snowball um I was I was really frustrated about
01:21:16
that decision I saw briefing the game I was getting over it in my head but that led me to still be in the red so then
01:21:22
when I got challenged and I was Fragile by this by this Captain probably just doing his role I lit loose on them eh
01:21:28
yeah like The Compound Effect yeah and it did and so I reviewed the game and I reviewed that instance in a cringe when
01:21:33
I listened to it so I have all the angles I've got all the audio and and I send an email obviously to the coach
01:21:38
about I was like look I'm not proud of that that was that was the wrong moment
01:21:41
to ever do that I don't even want to be able to do that and and but you've got
01:21:44
to watch that because I've got to be able to see it to know that that's not me I never want
01:21:49
to be like I don't want to do that in my game next week I don't want to do that
01:21:51
in the world cup so next time it happens just just come take a moment geez you had on yourself hey you hold yourself to
01:21:58
a very high standard I think you've got you've got to you've got to because like
01:22:02
you you are held to a high standard in the gamma rugby like you're you're
01:22:05
criticized live you criticized post game so the only way that you can do it is if
01:22:09
you can see yourself getting better if you can see yourself learning and developing if you if I was just
01:22:14
plateauing and just staying the same level the whole time then I'd give up I'd stop you know I always with anything
01:22:19
I'm doing you've got to progress you've got to be seeing um you know that you're moving forward
01:22:25
moving out moving towards the light around you know getting better and that's what I've always I've always done
01:22:30
in my life anything I've ever done in my career but especially rugby so um in rugby that comes out as being hard
01:22:38
on yourself but really it's just being critical and being honest because if you're not honest and you hide away from
01:22:43
a bad decision that you make well you'll make it again in another game so that's why I'm always like okay be be
01:22:50
more critical than you probably need to be with yourself and then that'll mean
01:22:54
that you're fine-tuned to the next game fine tune for next game and you'll go
01:22:58
into the World Cup at the top of your game throw any decision at me you need any test match I'll refer you really
01:23:03
well and the World Cup will be over you know I can't wait I like that yeah because yeah failure and mistake's good
01:23:09
but you do have to learn from them yeah otherwise that's uh yeah it's a never-ending cycle uh do you do you
01:23:16
apologize to a player if you get it wrong and give them a red or yellow card yeah actually you mentioned just before
01:23:20
you you reached out to the coach and apologize for that yeah I was really I was really I apologize
01:23:26
um for the Morocco curability reader card and talk to Dave Rooney about it was the Australian coach and
01:23:31
um and and like what we talked about startup podcast I I said I I admit I was wrong I realized the effect that this
01:23:38
has on players and like I'm just sorry about it and this is what I've done to
01:23:42
to get better um and so and and while like do we admit things in the game like probably not in
01:23:47
the game because we're actually not we're not sure um so if someone comes and says look you
01:23:51
missed their knock on there you might be like well yeah I might have like I'm
01:23:54
sorry well from my point of view this is this is what I saw so a lot a lot of that doesn't come until after the game
01:23:59
but I think it's important you're going with your hand up and um it's amazing I think it's quite easy
01:24:05
to be defensive as a referee you can be defensive because you don't want to be
01:24:08
seen to be making errors because if you are making areas you might not get picked for the next game like someone
01:24:13
else might not select you so you try and hide it behind those eras and if you'll if you're like that then
01:24:19
eventually you found out so what's the point yeah and also you're human so I
01:24:23
think showing some vulnerability and admitting you're wrong is a it's a very
01:24:27
powerful thing so it's fine yeah it's fine balances yeah like you can't keep
01:24:30
it and you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong yeah um any games that stand out because a
01:24:38
controversial decision you made change the outcome um the fact you have to even think about
01:24:45
that it says no like I've made I've made controversial decisions but I wouldn't
01:24:49
well yeah I mean I I guess I talked about that um like Crusaders waratah's game where
01:24:54
we missed that that um trial that shouldn't have been a try that yeah scored
01:24:58
um because of the foul play on Curley Bill like so you never know like what would have happened in the next second
01:25:03
half but that was a critical era and that led to a different outcome in the game so that was that was pretty massive
01:25:09
and a huge learning for me that I um I worked with my TMR about but like no like I reckon a lot of my other like
01:25:16
there's always controversy um I mean who knows like they're probably yeah you never know like you
01:25:22
make a different decision um it's uh yeah yeah hypotheticals you know there's a what a flow on effect of
01:25:30
a different outcome would have always happened so um I I want the answer for that to be no
01:25:34
I don't think the answer is no but I hope that the answer in the future is no
01:25:38
that's what I'm always trying to I like that that's a good answer um are there weird laws and rules that
01:25:44
most people wouldn't know about actually there must be you talk before about the
01:25:47
size of the rule book yeah some random rules like you can there's a rule that
01:25:51
if if you're you know you score when you go and score a try you'll be in the end
01:25:54
goal right like you got to hold the ball and you've got to be able to be in and
01:25:57
not out and then be able to push the ball down but there's one law that if you are standing if you're lying on your
01:26:03
stomach outside of the field of play so you're out and the ball's in goal you
01:26:09
can actually scroll try so you can score A Try by being out you've got to be
01:26:11
lying on your stomach yeah that your belly button's got to be touching grass so we've got to review
01:26:17
that has has that ever happened it has it has it's like maybe only once or twice in the history but I just want
01:26:24
people to change that rule so it isn't a rule anymore because like you think of
01:26:27
all these these these random these really weird rules like another one is that like it's all around the outlaw
01:26:33
actually like you can be running out you can be out of the field of play but if the balls in the field of play but it
01:26:38
hasn't crossed the plane of the touchline you can tap it and it's still play on so you can imagine you know
01:26:43
you're so if you were watching game rugby you didn't know the rules are rugby at all and you saw a guy out hit
01:26:48
the ball one two feet out of the field of play you're like he's out and then
01:26:52
touchy keeps his flag down and it's play on like it's just another random rule
01:26:55
yeah bizarre so there's there's a few of them um and you know a lot of other rules that
01:27:00
we sort of we don't really make them up but you know we just go through and just
01:27:04
try and make a game out of it but yeah random stuff I think they should change it but
01:27:08
um we we have some impact with the lawmakers um we have referees are part of those committees now and I've been on
01:27:14
there for a few times um so I think I see the game's in a good space right now
01:27:18
um there's there's some tweaks I think which you can definitely make in the
01:27:20
future yeah do you have a favorite or lucky whistle I do yeah do you know what I'm saying Acme thunderer so these are
01:27:26
the whistles this is the brand of the whistle right and Acme thunderer and um I've got a matte black one so it's matte
01:27:33
black and it's got a gold silver Fern on it you get engraved and then I've got
01:27:36
like I said before trust and enjoy and I've got another sign I've got a second
01:27:38
one so I've got a backup whistle and honest got attitude determines attitude
01:27:42
that's sort of my Mantra is that I sort of what is that attitude determines how
01:27:45
to change I've always had that as a kid um so I always always have a spare whistle on the sideline and because I
01:27:53
have everyone every referee um this is getting into real referee nerd stuff now has like where's their
01:27:58
whistle differently some have it on a wristband on a lanyard some have it like in their hand on a lanyard I have it on
01:28:05
an elastic tape on my two like what is that your index and your middle finger um no you're ring in your middle finger
01:28:12
and so so when I if I ever fall down or I put my hand on the ground most referees whistle will just fall off them
01:28:18
but my my whistle goes into the ground so often it gets quite muddy or like so when you go and blow it so I've done
01:28:23
that a few times where I've gone to blow couldn't blow the whistle but luckily I always have on the
01:28:28
sidelines so I give them to quickly run it on for me but what we're at it we're
01:28:31
at a test match in France last year in Angus Gardner who's a well-known um on the top Aussie and international
01:28:37
referees in the world he sort of fell over and his whistle stopped working and he started blowing and I was like
01:28:42
mate I was on the touchline I could hear I was on the side and I could hear that
01:28:45
it wasn't working I'm like mate you're going to get another whistle and he goes
01:28:48
I don't have my whistle I don't have a sphere whistle so you don't have a speed
01:28:50
whistle so I gave him my whistle and then ran back and um got one of the other guys to get his other his other
01:28:56
spear on but it was one of my proudest moments is that I got to see him referee a game and like he made three or four
01:29:02
decisions with my whistle I was like mate like how good is that you know that's what I'm gonna do we shouldn't be
01:29:06
sharing that I need to wash it afterwards yeah this is post covert though was it I said to master the game
01:29:09
like mate you've refereed 30 40 test matches that you've never had to Fearless on the sideline he's like no
01:29:13
mate I don't but now he does he referring to all black game last weekend and I saw that he had the level on the
01:29:19
sideline from that so so yes we do have a favorite whistle because every Acme thunderer they sound different so I've
01:29:25
just I've just had I've just had this whistle and it just sounds so good I
01:29:28
mean when I have to use my spear on it just you just don't get that same impact
01:29:31
yeah all right I'll look at you nerding out of it oh we love a whistle we love
01:29:34
it good how many how many tests have you done do you know the number I do I only
01:29:38
know the number because I don't really keep stats money no number because New Zealand Rugby gave me a midi for it
01:29:45
which uh like they give it for they sort of they tried to for players that do 100
01:29:49
games they sort of tried to work out what the equivalent referee like what are the equivalent
01:29:55
number for a referee is and I didn't know what this number was but because you know players do they probably do
01:30:01
I mean they might do nine ten test matches a year so you can get to the 100 like within about 10 days where we we
01:30:07
probably only do three or four a year if if you're lucky right so the number for
01:30:11
for us to be able to get that is 35. um so I know my I know that because I did my 35th I guess I got my midi um a
01:30:18
few months ago I went to MIDI middle um so maybe like a um greenstone okay I'm
01:30:23
carving like a midi okay oh gotcha awesome yeah wow that was awesome so there was a prisoners at New Zealand
01:30:27
Rugby and everyone everyone was like um 35 games like why that's a random number
01:30:33
but that's sort of the number that because there's only ever been one other
01:30:36
person that's done more than me um which is poor owners which I think is he's
01:30:40
done 43 you know so he just shows that actually the life cycle of a referee you actually don't last that long you don't
01:30:46
really do a lot of a lot of test matches so I've done 35 I'll um no so 36 was last weekend in Pretoria
01:30:55
South Africa Australia 37 38 I've got two in Scotland 39 40 41 at the World Cup and then anything happens after that
01:31:02
maybe 42 43 so I might end the year on 43. which would be pretty cool and are you the only kiwi riffing at the World
01:31:09
Cup no we've got a great we've got a great Squad so all our professional
01:31:11
referees are going to the World Cup in some capacity we've got Paul Williams
01:31:14
who's another referee going he'll be a second World Cup as a referee Brendan
01:31:17
pickerel who's going as a TMO so television match official and he's actually going to be my
01:31:22
private TMO like we were really really good mates and we've come through the
01:31:25
grades together we all the processes and stuff and how we read the game and how we riff of the game is really really
01:31:30
similar so knowing that he's going to be upstairs and probably the most important
01:31:34
job now in the TMO outside the referee having my back is really awesome so we're going to be well aligned and then
01:31:41
James dolman is going to go to his first World Cup as assistant referee and and to be honest like all four of us could
01:31:46
have gone in a referee capacity there's no there's no difference in terms of
01:31:49
one's a referee one's a TMO one's an AR um you know we've had a good group for a
01:31:54
few years now and probably unfortunately created a bit of a bottleneck for anyone
01:31:57
else coming through at the moment because they're still quite young but you know we're all referring
01:32:00
International test matches and you go through Ebbs and flows around life cycles of like what are the leading
01:32:06
nations of referees so um you know back when Patty O'Brien Colin Hawk these are older New Zealand
01:32:13
refers you know they were like the guns back in the day and then I went through like the South Africans were really
01:32:18
really strong for a long time with Andre Watson and you know tapa Henning and then you know Craig Craig Joubert and
01:32:25
then um I reckon we're moving into the uh well we had like the English refreeze
01:32:29
they're extremely strong and then yeah I think you know we're coming into our
01:32:31
zone now where the kiwifery is going to lead the way and and I think you know we're we're lucky I think the Super
01:32:36
Rugby competition is lucky that they have you know a high you know us experience referees as well as
01:32:42
Australian guys doing doing the comps and I think that leads it only bodes well for the All Blacks because if
01:32:48
you're getting refereed constantly to a high standard at Super Rugby level then
01:32:51
hopefully that will transition easily into into test matches yeah oh how good what's going to be good to see you on um
01:32:57
on screen and hopefully New Zealand gets in behind you and the other referees I mean essentially you know you're a new
01:33:03
zealanders that we should be proud of like you're representing the country in
01:33:06
this International Tournament and I think that's that's pretty cool and hopefully you guys get this sort of
01:33:10
respect and acknowledgment that you do deserve I think we do you know um we definitely we feel that from from
01:33:15
players coaches and and generally The Wider public you know like um they do love the game well we don't we we don't
01:33:21
need to be recognized or known we just want to be part of the game and then sort of just like blend into the
01:33:26
background but it is a real honor and like a privilege for us to we feel like we are visiting New Zealand so not many
01:33:31
new zealanders like not many new zealanders will hope like know me outside of Super Rugby because I
01:33:37
don't really get to refer the All Blacks I have done the All Blacks during covert
01:33:39
which was really rare but they'll never really see me refreading all that counts
01:33:43
oh is that like a rule they they try and keep it neutral yeah you can't referee
01:33:47
your own country right um but in covertly because of travel we got to so yeah um you know there's only about three or
01:33:53
four referees that have ever done that which um which is pretty crazy wow so do you know do you do you have like a
01:33:57
schedule do you know what games you'll be doing or is it sort of decided during
01:34:00
the tournament at the World Cup yeah yeah we do know I think they're going to
01:34:03
get released um maybe maybe in a few weeks but um I've got yeah the host nation in one
01:34:07
game I got a mess probably one of the biggest pool games as well um and then a really really big game um
01:34:13
at the end you know depending on where both teams sit so I probably can't like
01:34:16
to say right right now what they are but um uh yeah it's going to be it's going to
01:34:21
be pretty exciting and and you know too we as I said like we represent we feel like we are representing New Zealand so
01:34:25
even though we're wearing a world rugby logo another Jersey I think a few of us
01:34:30
I think um one of the other referees like Wiz has sort of silver Fern skins underneath you know because he's proud
01:34:35
of being a kiwi you know out there and um you know sort of doing our thing at three in the morning in New Zealand time
01:34:41
but you know we were from some of the biggest test matches in the world overseas
01:34:44
um as well and have you enjoyed the um the little bit of media attention you've
01:34:49
been getting lately I've seen you on a few things including the am show with
01:34:51
your brother yeah I love that that was a nice moment I loved it yeah um yeah so my brothers I've been hosting the am
01:34:57
show um and you know I've sort of followed his career um as he's come um did his Sports and you know
01:35:04
broadcasting degree overseas and in the United States and obviously you know he was a footballer went to the Olympics
01:35:09
you know so he was awesome and then you know came back to New Zealand and started working for sky sport news Hub
01:35:15
and then um yeah the am showing so he always wanted to sort of get me on on mainly because of leading into the World
01:35:22
Cup then everything happened with all the media stuff they thought like this would be a great time to be able to do
01:35:26
it and yeah I was pretty nervous going in and oh yeah well I just I just think what like I shouldn't have been but I
01:35:33
was just it was exciting it was that nervous exciting yeah but to see how he operated in the
01:35:39
background I've never been able to do that I see what he's doing on TV and
01:35:42
like super proud of what he's what he's done and um you know we've got a younger sisters
01:35:46
around like obviously really proud like we're really tired as as siblings I'm so
01:35:50
proud of what about what both of they do what both of them do and um but in the background like seeing him do his thing
01:35:55
and sort of I was there like it was a really I'm sure a unique opportunity to
01:35:59
get a brother um to do that on here and um yeah he just rocked it and it was a lot of fun
01:36:04
we had a bit of a laugh and he might have made a comment about your sister's
01:36:07
birthday she called into the show after I stayed to watch the just the end of it and she
01:36:25
called in like Michael was definitely tearing up when he was reading reading that so like it was it was a cool little
01:36:29
family that'll be one thing that you know we'll grow up and we'll look back
01:36:32
on and be like how cool how cool was that you know that we were in a position where we could do that but um so I I
01:36:37
enjoyed that I I don't like the media I don't I don't I don't strive to to put
01:36:42
myself out there to be a media Mogul you know but I I thought there was the responsibility thing I feel like I need
01:36:48
to um out of out of anyone I guess even in general maybe I'm sort of the leader
01:36:53
there and and the world and World rugby um I do have that responsibility to try and get out there and if people want to
01:37:00
hear opinions from a referee I'll give it um and I'll do it in a really respected well-structured way
01:37:07
um if people want to hear answers about something I don't mind being the one
01:37:09
that gives that um and also putting my hand up when I'm wrong I think people want to be able to
01:37:14
see that and and I do have I guess the platform to be able to do it at the moment
01:37:18
so I won't I won't Chase it but when people was like when people ask me to do
01:37:21
anything that's for the good of the game yeah I'll say yes yeah well I'm really
01:37:25
pleased that I'm pleased that you agreed to come here today to come on the podcast but I'm also pleased that you um
01:37:30
have um shine a light on like the abuse that referees are subjected to because it's not acceptable and um we need to
01:37:37
know what's going on because otherwise most of us are blissfully unaware yeah
01:37:40
and that's that's all I want to do around it is just sort of show that show
01:37:43
that this is this is what's happening um and a lot of people like I can't
01:37:46
believe that there's what you get um yeah well we get that after every game yeah not to that extent but that's
01:37:52
exactly what happens and and I'm worried that that this this will cup is going to
01:37:57
be such a massive World Cup it's going to be so amazing you know like it's
01:37:59
going to be the most competitive World Cup we've ever had um we're at a we're at like a point
01:38:04
where like media is going to explode there's Netflix TV series on everyone on
01:38:09
everything you know there's all these like background things happening that I'm worried like there's going to be
01:38:13
like this we've got to be careful as referees um that you know we look after each
01:38:18
other and um you know we look after each other during the games and after the games and to stick together because we
01:38:24
want to make sure that you know we are we are safe in that environment which gives us it's just got it's got like
01:38:29
Time Bomb like written all over it you know in terms of what can happen yeah is is the um yeah do you have security and
01:38:35
stuff is that sort of what you mean like you're well watching each other so we
01:38:38
don't yeah and I know like like teams do um because we normally traveling like
01:38:42
ones and twos but not that not that I've seen us need it yet but I think it's going that way
01:38:49
you know so I mean they are empty threats but they are still three I mean you could argue that any threat should
01:38:54
be taken seriously all you need is just someone that is like really like drunk or just really feels passionate about it
01:39:00
and they just see you in that street and like I haven't I haven't heard a lot
01:39:04
about it every free so far but I'd say we referee a game at the World Cup so
01:39:07
we're all taking trains to all our games you know so we travel on a train just
01:39:10
the way that we're going to do it we'll Cup in France um you do it you do a massive game it's
01:39:15
controversial you're on the train station afterwards like with your team because you're
01:39:18
wearing your tracksuit you've got to wear your tracksuit and like you know the guys have been
01:39:22
pissing up at the the game the whole day and then they come and hit you up about
01:39:25
something and you know it's hard like there'll be some of us that will buy
01:39:30
back and like we don't have to bite back like you just want to avoid all those
01:39:32
types of situations so um we don't know if we don't have security we have Security on the games
01:39:37
actually um often when you come off a game the security guards like you get a real
01:39:44
barometer of like how well you refereed so normally you just walk off the game and people boom and cheer doesn't
01:39:48
doesn't matter but you walk off and you walk off by yourself but sometimes when
01:39:52
you walk off a game that you haven't refreed well the security guard walks to
01:39:55
you and escort and escorts you off but I remember like referring a few games and
01:39:59
thinking seeing the security guard come to me like those are that bad that's
01:40:04
sort of like covering you from uh people flying bottles it's actually something I
01:40:09
reckon you know you saw that and this is part of the bottom the post that I made
01:40:13
um was about the Europa Football League that was walking through the airport and
01:40:17
got cheers thrown at him and his wife that's happening in football you know so
01:40:21
we're not that far removed from from that um in these big big high stakes games with these outcomes that we're in
01:40:27
control of um so yeah it's a that whole public eye thing um definitely definitely want to
01:40:32
try and avoid and for those reasons yeah and it's the sorry I feel like I was
01:40:37
wrapping up and now we're sort of getting back into it but is the duty of care good like are you offered
01:40:41
um like a zero is there a psychologist or a therapist or yeah so it is it is really good um through New Zealand Rugby
01:40:47
yeah um we've got we've got um you know obviously programs that work with us we
01:40:52
work quite closely with the sports psychologist um who we've got a really good
01:40:56
relationship with so there's that and and you know family is really important
01:40:59
too so yeah you've got to have you've got to have your family around you as
01:41:01
well so um there's all of that I I still think though we can keep like I think I
01:41:06
mentioned this we can get better like we can get the structures better yeah in place I feel like we we often play
01:41:11
catch-up we're um outside of men mainly probably at World rugby we need to set it up so that
01:41:17
we're really and prepared before it happened so that when it happens all the Motions start falling in place
01:41:22
and and we pull the trigger on it so and we're probably not there right now but
01:41:28
we had examples of that over over years and big test matches where um you know it's sort of Gone Gone Wrong
01:41:34
um but touchwood we're only at the school cup but um okay and um last one what will a
01:41:40
successful World Cup look like to you for me um do you like say New Zealand's not on
01:41:46
the final and two other teams are do you aspire to uh like refer World Cup final
01:41:52
so like I I for me that's not immeasurable for what I want to I would say a success to me of course like I'd
01:41:58
love to do a World Cup final um I feel like I'm in a position where I'm good enough and it can do a really
01:42:03
good job of it um but I would actually love it was it was me or the All Blacks in the final I
01:42:09
want to be having a beer in the stadium with a hot dog watching it all blacks on
01:42:12
the final because I remember what it was like when they won the finals and I was
01:42:14
in New Zealand because like I'm in a rugby sport I'm an all-black fan so I
01:42:17
want to feel that again and I that's that's more important for me I think you
01:42:21
know some referees probably want finals you know like it used to be like that and I remember feeling on that when I
01:42:25
was way back like doing Club rugby you know you wanted to do that Colts final because it's really important that club
01:42:30
rugby final because it's really important to get up the grades to be noticed
01:42:33
after the last World Cup I was really like I didn't know how I was going to feel and I remember I referee Japan
01:42:39
versus Scotland and I went really well I refereed the game really well as my last
01:42:43
game and a weight came off my shoulders I felt like I'm satisfied I'm I'm at
01:42:48
peace with my career as a rugby referee so it's almost like anything now it's
01:42:51
just a bonus so success for me at this world cup is is go to a hell of a good job at the three games that I that I'm
01:42:57
I've got on pool and pool in the pool play um when I'm in a system referee
01:43:01
I've got three games support the guy in the middle as much as I can be an amazing team player um and have a
01:43:07
lot of fun outside of like at during the World Cup and then like I would love to
01:43:11
I would love I would love to be able to do a playoff game whether that's a quarter final or semi-final or a final
01:43:16
not not because I want to see my name next to that final but I want like it's
01:43:20
a new challenge you know I talked about always trying to go forward like I've
01:43:22
never done a playoff game in a World Cup I've done massive World Cup games but
01:43:26
it's it's that experience like I I hunger for the challenge of like am I
01:43:30
good enough you know I believe I'm good enough at least go out there and look
01:43:34
like this deliver but I also think that like in those games they're the biggest
01:43:37
games in the world you need some of the best referees and I think that I've worked so hard at my craft that I'm in
01:43:42
such a good position now with the experience and all my learnings that I can really really do a good job for
01:43:48
their quarterfinal for those players for coaches for the people watching um for that semi-final the same thing
01:43:53
for the final you know so um that's success for me and and we will I'll be flying back
01:43:59
um with my other my other mates from the World Cup going like [ __ ] what a crazy
01:44:04
time you know it would be just a roller coaster but hope we can just a bit of champagne cheers and go like we did a
01:44:09
great job yeah and champagne before takeoff too because he flies business class that is a nice little perk of uh of uh
01:44:18
World rugby thank you Lord rugby for sorting that into our contracts a smaller smaller cabin so less people to
01:44:23
abuse you oh yeah and like you can just put the partitions no Wi-fi all right hey uh Dr Ben O'Keefe
01:44:31
um thanks so much for coming on the podcast today good luck at the World Cup um and just know that the the abuse the
01:44:38
torrent of abuse you had after the Super Rugby final that's not even one percent
01:44:41
of the country and 99 of us think you're doing a great job um we're rooting for you and we're just
01:44:47
proud of you as new zealanders yeah thanks Tom really really appreciate it was awesome talking to you and I think
01:44:51
um yeah reinforcing that message um yeah it does make a difference for all of us you know not just myself so
01:44:56
cheers oh [Music]