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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in it again. Hey Finn, how's the
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performance going? >> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
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investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first. >> First of all, I'd like to bring um a new friend of mine into the studio. So,
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there was a um where we're recording this. This is um my Pod Lab studio and we had a group in for a tour the other
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week from um OD College and I met this young kid called Henry Blakeman who is uh I think he's 12 maybe 13 years old
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and he's into politics. So, I thought I'd bring him in to ask some of the
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hard-hitting political questions before we get into the chat. >> David Seymour, are you ready?
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>> Absolutely. I Well, I think so. See how hard-hitting this guy is. >> It would be so much better if his name
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was Goliath for the sake of the segment. >> David versus Goliath. >> I just I'm just trying to think who's
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the who's the Goliath and who's the David in this. I I I I feel I may be uh
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about to get stoned. >> David Seymour, meet Henry Blakeman. >> Hi, Henry. How are you?
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>> Nice to meet you. >> Yeah. How are you? >> I'm very well, thanks.
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>> That's good. >> Keen to hear what you've got to say or ask.
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>> Yeah. Well, I've heard a little bit about you. You've been in the news quite
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a lot. >> Once or twice. Out of interest. Um, where do you get information about
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politics? Do you online or on the news on TV? >> I mostly watch the news at 6:00. So, any
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of the stuff that I'm getting from politics, I usually get from there. My parents will from time to time cut in
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with things that they've heard on the news, but we tend to stay a bit away from debates in our house.
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>> Is that Is there a reason for that? >> Um it can get quite heated
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>> really. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz I come from quite a unique household where one parent is leftwing
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and one parent is right-wing, which is getting rarer and rarer, I think. But it's good to expose me to both opinions
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because especially as a young person and my brain's still developing, if I'm only
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exposed to one set of political ideals, then I'll never accept the other side of
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it. >> I think you should have got this guy on. >> I might just I might leave.
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>> Well, that's that's really really interesting. And and when you say that
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there's fewer parents who have opposing views, is that did you read that somewhere or what is that is that really
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true? >> I think I've experienced personally a lot of people who are together who have
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similar views in politics. So I won't name names, but one of my teachers, them and their partner are
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both the same views on politics. And I think a lot of people I've met in their
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relationships have been like that. >> It's kind of what they call an echo
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chamber. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. And did you have did you have some questions?
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>> Yeah. Um, so one of the main one of the main things I wanted to talk to you
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about is lowering the voting age. I think it's important to have parliamentally
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[Music] when you work you have a taxable income and the government takes that tax money
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and does whatever it is they want to do with it. But if they're taking your money and you didn't get to choose how
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they're spending it, I don't see that as fair. >> So, no taxation without representation.
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>> No. >> Yeah. I I got to tell you, it's funny. My niece uh occasionally emails me about
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political stuff and uh she was having an argument with my sister-in-law, her her
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mom, about whether she could work and she wanted to know at what age are you allowed to work and I was a bit
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surprised. So I I looked up the law and there's actually no restrictions on children working at any age. Uh and uh
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there's also below a certain age, I think it's about 12, there's also no
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minimum wage. Um, so if that's true and children can work at any age, is it possible that we should put the voting
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age down to zero? >> Yeah. Well, I think the vote the voting age will always be there. It's always
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been a guideline. Um, and I don't think there would be a democracy in the world
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or history that has ever not had a voting age. And a lot of people say it's about maturity, but in reality, there
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are a lot of people aged 21, 20 that are less mature than some 16 year olds. And
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definitely the people that I've met in my life, there are a lot of 16, 17 year
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olds that are way more politically mature than you'd expect. >> Yeah, I'd go further. I've I've met one
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or two people who actually elected to parliament who are less mature than than some 15 and 16 year olds.
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Look, I I agree with you that there's there's got to be a line. >> Yeah.
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>> Because I think if you said, you know, four year olds can vote, it would really
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just be their parents getting an extra vote. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then the question is where should
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the line be drawn? Wherever you draw it, there will be some people who are under
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the line and really capable and some people are over the line and probably less capable than people who are under
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the line. Uh, so it's just down to an argument of should it be 21 like it was
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in the past? Should it be 18 like it is now? Should it be 16 like some people say? I mean, what what makes you say are
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you saying 16 or >> Yes, I'd like it to be lowered to 16. One of the main reasons is because I
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turned 17 on the year of an election. >> Oh, self this out by one year. But um I
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think they've just in the UK changed it down to 16 and our parliament is based
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off of the Westminster system. So if they're changing it, why shouldn't we
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change it as well? >> Well, um I I guess you know the UK does make mistakes sometimes.
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Um, yeah. Look, I I I mean, I just come down and say, "Well, what's the There's
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an argument for 16, there's an argument for 18, there's an argument for for 20,
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if if you want to make it. I I've just never quite been persuaded that 16 is a
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is a better age than 18." Um, and the reason that I I don't favor changing it,
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for one thing, it's better if the electoral rules don't change frequently.
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And the reason I think that is that if the electoral rules are the same, then people don't worry about the rules, they
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worry about the policies. Um, and that that I think is an advantage. Um, and also the way I look at it, the people
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who are mostly pushing uh for the voting age to be lowered are people that want higher taxes and more government
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spending. Because while your point is absolutely correct, you can pay tax from 14 and there should be no taxation
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without representation. I I agree with that. Um but we've got that even at 16.
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Uh you know, I believe that uh having another 100,000 people who vote but mostly don't work and mostly don't pay
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tax uh will mean that we get bigger government over time. And so some people will say that's an unfair argument, but
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but that's one of the arguments I make for it staying at at 18. >> Okay. Well, if you're talking about
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having a bigger government, from the research I've done, one of ACT's main
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policies is having a smaller government. Could you give me your reasoning behind
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having a government of less size? >> Yeah. Um, I just look at the decisions.
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I mean, humans are social creatures. We are always trying to um do our own thing, but we inevitably come back to to
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wanting to do stuff with other people. Then the question is well how do you organize um people to cooperate and uh
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one way is just social informal networks your family uh your sports club your friendship group and so on and uh that
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works really well cuz people can do a lot of stuff fast but they don't need to
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um you know give each other a receipt or a payment or whatever. So it's quite
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good uh in that way. But if you want to do sort of bigger stuff like make a jumbo jet, uh then you need businesses.
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We need people with contracts and money and and businesses can do really good big things faster. Um but they sometimes
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lack a bit of the compassion and so on. And then there's another way of doing
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things which is government where you make laws and actually force everybody to behave the same way. Everyone must
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follow this law. Not just people in this family, not just people that choose this
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business, but everybody. Now, all of those things have have good sides and bad sides, but in my view at the moment,
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we try and do too much stuff through government. Uh we tax too much, we make too many rules, and it's led to enormous
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frustration. Um, you know, people have basically been told for the last 80 years, you give me all of your money or
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about a third to half your money in taxes, we'll make the problems go away. or make sure people have a house and an
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education and stay healthy and don't don't end up dependent on welfare and
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actually you know people paid all the taxes for the last 80 years but the problems haven't gone away so I would
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argue that you know just start with the three ways of organizing people you know
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sort of social family civil society business and government and I would argue that government does too much
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people very frustrated with it and we should try and put the pendulum back the other way
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>> but aren't you a bit worried that people will be unrepresented. I mean 120 people
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that get to sit in parliament out of 5 million people is a small num a small fraction as it is. But if you have a
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smaller government, are you aren't you a little concerned that some people won't
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get represented at all? >> Um well I I would be but just to be clear what I'm talking about. Uh when I
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talk about a smaller government, I don't mean a smaller parliament. Uh I think it
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is important to have a a house of representatives of of parliamentarians. Um but that's quite different from the
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ministers, the prime minister, the ministers and the government departments. Uh that's the government.
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And one way I always think about it is if you go to the US, uh, you can walk along the National Mall there and
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they've got the White House and then they've got the Congress and then they've got the Supreme Court and the
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the government and the the Parliament if you like are separate and so are the courts. Here we've got one parliament
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and the government the the prime minister and his ministers sit amongst the parliamentarians. So it sort of
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seems like it's all the same thing. Um, but it's it's not. Um, and so I'm
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talking about, you know, a smaller bureaucracy. I'm talking about less government spending. I'm talking about
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less rules and regulations, but I still think that, you know, the people should have representatives to speak for them
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in the parliament and in the same number as we have now, which is, you know, which is what you're saying, which I
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think you're right. >> Okay. So, do you think we should have a smaller government by separating the
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government and the House of Representatives or is that what you're saying? >> Um, I'm not necessarily saying that. Uh
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I'm just saying that the the number of ministers could be smaller. So you could
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still have 120 MPs, but right now a quarter of them are ministers. Um in the past instead of having 30 ministers, we
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had 16 or 18. So we could have fewer min fewer MPs that are ministers. Uh we could have fewer government departments.
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At the moment we got about 46 departments. Um uh you know other countries around the world have half
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that and they still manage to function. Uh, so you could keep the parliament the
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same size, shrink the ministers and the ministries and and be better off. >> Okay. Well, you talked a bit about
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lowering taxes, but that seems to be one of the government's main points to solve
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the cost of living crisis. Is there anything else you're doing at the moment
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that is helping Kiwis to make it through? >> Sure. I mean, I look at the thing that
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we're recording this today. I I just announced that we're going to um take a
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look at the 30 different sets of rules for labeling because if you want to sell a medicine in a chemist shop, a building
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material in a building supply place um you know a insecticide or something in a in a farm place um like RD1 or um if you
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want to put food on the shelves of a supermarket, all of those things have different rules for how they should be
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labeled in New Zealand. And often uh there will be things that are allowed to be sold in New Zealand, but you can't
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take the same thing off the shelf and put it in a New Zealand supermarket because the rules are different. Now,
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I've what I'm saying is if something could be sold in Australia, it should be
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sold here. And if we did that, then there'd be more products that New Zealanders could choose from and prices
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probably come down uh with more choice and competition. So that's, you know,
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just one little example of where we're trying to actually get rid of the red
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tape so that people can do better. >> Okay. And I wanted to ask about a specific product and I'm sure the
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government has heard this a lot but I wanted to ask a bit about butter. Now we've recently had a bit of controversy
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on Fonta. >> Um and in our family we have a small business and >> how do you think that you would be able
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to lower the price of butter? >> Well, a couple of things. I mean I don't
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think that uh the government can lower the price of butter uh because the the price is set by the the price that
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farmers are getting on the global dairy trade and that is uh influenced by how much butter is produced say um in places
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like Europe if they are producing less then they've got less they'll pay more
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to to import butter from New Zealand that pushes the price up. Uh the second thing is um if you look at what the
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supermarkets are doing, they're actually selling for less than they're getting it
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for right now. I mean, they're taking a loss for the most part on on selling
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butter. So, you know, this this price is influenced by things that the the New Zealand government could control. But if
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we start setting the price for butter, then it's what else are we going to do?
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People expect us to set every price. I mean, we don't know what to set it at.
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Um, so I I I think what's interesting is that um farmers are in New Zealand are
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very innovative. They're on top of their game. They're selling something the
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world wants. The rest of New Zealand is struggling to afford it. So my answer is
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this is not a problem with the price of butter. This is a problem with one industry being at the forefront of the
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world and the rest of New Zealand struggling to to afford the prices that they're getting.
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>> Okay. Uh I want to move back a bit. We were talking about parliament, but I
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wanted to ask a little bit about MMP specifically. People talk about in politics the tail wagging the dog
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>> and saying that the Greens or Tata Malda could control Labor the same way that
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ACT and New Zealand First could control national and I wanted to ask a bit about
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how you managed to go into a coalition government and still stand strong with your beliefs but compromise. M um you
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know I had a political mentor um a long time ago when I worked in Canada. His name was Preston Manning and a lot of
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people said he was the best prime minister Canada never had. He he he started a party from nothing became the
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leader of the opposition there. Anyway, um Preston said look all politics is ultimately about people managing to live
00:15:35
together without physical fighting. Um so that that is the business. Uh, do we get everything we want? No. I mean, New
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Zealand would be uh a different place if ACT got more of its policies uh through.
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But, um, is the government different because we're there? Yeah, absolutely. We're, you know, saving more money.
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We're spending less. We're getting rid of more red tape. Um, I think we're a
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lot stronger on equal rights regardless of your ancestry. Uh, there's a bunch of
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things where we can say we've moved the dial from from where it would otherwise
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be and that that's just the business, you know. >> Yeah. So you talked about having a
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political mentor in Canada. Could you describe to us well one what you did before politics and two how you got into
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politics and managed to become the party leader you are today who's in government.
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>> Yeah. So um I all my life wanted to be an electrical engineer. I I had an
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experience that you will have quite soon. I um was looking at my option lines, which subjects I would take at
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high school, and I decided that I wanted to do languages uh and history um because I thought they'd be interesting.
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So, I took this plan to my mom and long story short, uh I graduated in physics, chemistry, calc, stats, and English. The
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only reason I did English instead of biology is English was compulsory then. Um so I was d I was steered very
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strongly towards um a scientific career. Did he did electrical engineering um and
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I um you know started working out doing that but at that point I'd already been
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bitten by a bug uh and it started when I was in uh year 12 was my last year of high school. the NCAA was being
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introduced and I watched the principal of my high school, a guy called John Morris, publicly fight with Trevor
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Malard, who was the education minister. And uh Trevor had this big battle uh and
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uh lost and and won. Um but 25 years later, the government is getting rid of the NCAA and John won. Now I was sitting
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there as a kid and I thought the principal's right. the government's right, but how can the principal say the
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government's wrong? And I looked into it and I found out the government's wrong
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quite often. >> In fact, probably more often than not. And that's really what what got me
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interested in politics. I I I I suddenly decided that if I'm going to do something with my life, you know,
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there's there's no shortage of politicians out there who promise to take someone else's money, give it to
00:18:10
you, or take someone else's freedom by making a rule to to make them do what
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you want. And I just came to the conclusion that freedom is what works. All through history, it's free people
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that have made made the breakthroughs. Uh and I would go into politics to fight for freedom instead of taxing someone
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else's money. And that from there, I just kept going. >> Yeah. Well, you talked about NCA. So, as
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a year 8 this year, I will be one of the students that will have never earned NCA
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credits from the previous system, and I'll only be doing the A&E grading that
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the government's introduced now. How do you as a government aim to improve my
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schooling and improve my qualifications by changing the system? >> Well, I just want to start by saying NCA
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can be a good system. Uh if you choose hard credits and apply yourself, you could you do very well with NCA. I think
00:19:02
where NCA has gone wrong is exactly where John Morris back in the day said it would is that it creates too many
00:19:10
options and pathways uh to avoid the hard work and actually make life too easy. Uh and people say how can life be
00:19:20
too easy? Well, actually I I think you've got to have a series of challenges where you say this is the
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curriculum. You got to learn it. you got to sit the test and then we're going to
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give you a percentage. And um you know that may be hard, but it's better to have a series of small and increasingly
00:19:37
large challenges as you grow up. Uh because when you're an adult, suddenly you get some big challenges and if you
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hadn't had one before, you're in trouble. Uh so, you know, NCA can work and I don't want to take anything away
00:19:48
from those students out there who have or are doing NCA. Um but we're going to
00:19:53
say, look, this is the stuff you need to learn. There will be a test. you've got
00:19:56
to pass it. And I think that is going to be good for uh the amount of knowledge you pick up and it's also going to be
00:20:02
good for young people uh being ready to face more life's challenges. >> Okay. Well, I've heard some students
00:20:09
saying that they're worried about what their qualifications with NCA will mean.
00:20:14
So, year 12 and 13 students who are doing NCA right now, once they graduate and the new system changes over fully,
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how will their credits benefit them in later life to find a job when they become invalid with the new
00:20:30
system. Well, not invalid, but yeah. >> Well, that you're right, they won't
00:20:33
become invalid. That's that's true. Uh I think that there will be some people
00:20:38
that have a a negative view of NCAA, but ultimately if you're an employer or
00:20:44
someone who's letting people into a university or trade course, you're sitting there saying, "I need to get the
00:20:51
best people. If NCAA is the information I have, then I will use that uh to assess whether I want to employ or put
00:20:58
someone into a course. So, what I'd say to those people is um you know, is the
00:21:03
course is the new thing better or worse? Probably depends on the work you put in.
00:21:07
Um will you still have prospects and will people use the information they have about you from the course that you
00:21:12
did at your time in history? Yeah, they will. >> Okay. Um, I wanted to move back to one
00:21:17
of your previous statements where you said that if ACT was the main party in government, a lot of things would have
00:21:23
changed. What's on your priority list? What is the biggest thing that you would
00:21:27
want to change if you suddenly became the biggest party in New Zealand? >> I think at the heart of the frustrations
00:21:35
people have with New Zealand right now is that we have lost the pioneering spirit that created this country. Um, I
00:21:44
look at my own history. Some of my ancestors came here on a walker 800 years ago. Others came in a sailing ship
00:21:51
120, 130 years ago. Um, you know, others um not in my hair family, but certainly
00:21:56
in my circle of friends have arrived in New Zealand just in the last few years. Um, you know, that's that's our history
00:22:03
where people that move a long way to a pretty remote place, pretty out there place to try and get a better life. And
00:22:10
that means that you're someone who's prepared to take action to try and give
00:22:13
your kids a better tomorrow uh by taking a risk today. And I just feel like we've
00:22:19
lost that spirit in New Zealand. Everyone's worried about, oh, how do people feel? Is it safe? You know, what
00:22:25
if what if? Um we've got a million road cones to make sure that nothing goes
00:22:29
wrong. Um is kind of the symbol of it, right? Yeah. And um I just kind of I I want to see a New Zealand where we are a
00:22:38
lot more prepared to take risks, be rewarded, not pull people down with tall poppy. We're not focused on all the
00:22:44
little differences between us. We're focused on the fact that we're all pioneers who came here or children of
00:22:49
pioneers who came here. Um that's the kind of New Zealand that can solve problems and and it's the New Zealand
00:22:54
that a lot of people like. It's you know, Sir Edund Hillary climbs Everest. It's Kate Shepard first in the world.
00:22:59
you know, it's it's it's Rutherford splits the atom. You know, it's these
00:23:03
are the kind of stories we like to tell about ourselves. So, what does that look
00:23:07
like when it comes to policies? Well, it's, you know, it's a smaller bureaucracy. It's less rules and
00:23:12
regulations. It's less tax, but it's also, you know, being tough on crime
00:23:16
because you don't want to spend your life building up a shop and have someone
00:23:19
walk in and take it away. Um, you know, it's also, uh, saying, look, if you ever
00:23:24
find yourself as a soul parent or you really can't get a job, there'll be
00:23:28
welfare there for you. But at the moment, one out of every six working age New Zealanders is on a benefit. And I
00:23:35
just refuse to believe that one in six people can't work. Um, so we need to start putting some obligations and some
00:23:42
time limits uh on welfare. And uh we also need to make it desperately when we talk about red tape, make it easier to
00:23:49
build a home because the next generation can build a home. Things are going to work out okay. People say, "Right,
00:23:54
here's the deal. I sit my exams, I do my work, save my money, I buy a place, I
00:23:59
can have a good life, a stable life, uh have a family if that's what I want." Uh
00:24:04
whereas when people say, "I've done everything right, but I'll always be a
00:24:09
tenant in my own country," then people get very upset. So, more opportunity to
00:24:14
harness that pioneering spirit and make the most of our time on Earth. Um, you know, which involves a little bit of
00:24:20
risk, but also a lot more reward. >> Okay. >> Jeez, he's smart, isn't he?
00:24:24
>> He is. >> Were you like that? I'd imagine you would have been like a nerdy
00:24:30
politically. >> Well, I was nerdy, but I wasn't that smart. >> Were you that in tune with politics at
00:24:35
the same age? No. >> When I was So, you're year eight? >> Year eight.
00:24:40
>> So, you were 13? >> 13. >> Yeah. So um by the time I was 17 I was
00:24:46
that's when I got interested in NCA with um John Morris and Trevor Mard and all
00:24:51
the rest. That was the first time I paid any attention. I remember really succinctly uh I don't know why I
00:24:58
remember this but it came on the radio that um there was a guy called uh Michael Cullen and my ears pricked up
00:25:06
cuz I thought it was Christian Cullen and then I found out it wasn't Christian
00:25:10
Cullen. So I went and did something else, you know, like that's that's about
00:25:14
how interested. I was like, "Oh, it's an all but no, it's just the, you know, who
00:25:17
I later found out was the Minister of Finance." But um >> actually, I'm I'm pretty good friends
00:25:22
with um Kelly, the living one, Christian Kullan, and he's he's very frugal with
00:25:25
his money. He wouldn't be a bad finance minister. Actually, >> that's another thing that's happened
00:25:28
since I since I was on your podcast. I met my hero. What a legend. >> Really? Where did you meet him? The um
00:25:34
Paumu Golf Course. >> Uh no, it was a it was a golf course. It was the um Chasing the Fox. uh um annual
00:25:42
uh thing I do. So, you know, celebrity raise money for golf thing. >> So, that was awesome. Every time they do
00:25:47
an all black selection, I hope he's in. You don't know who this is, do you,
00:25:50
Henry? >> Unfortunately, not. >> You you do you like rugby at all? >> I'm not much of a rugby person, but I'll
00:25:55
watch the Warriors and the Blues with my nan and we'll watch the All Blacks if
00:25:58
they're on. >> If you you just Google Christian Cullens All Black Tries and then you'll love
00:26:04
rugby. >> It's a long package. Um, hey, we're going to crack on, but
00:26:09
maybe one one last one from you, Henry. Um, since you you've probably got more
00:26:13
of a debate with um the deputy prime minister on this and what I do, what are your thoughts on the uh treaty
00:26:18
principles bill? >> Yeah, so this was one of the more maybe controversial and infamous things I
00:26:23
wanted to touch on, but as a young person, maybe my grasp on what you're trying to
00:26:29
do with the bill is not as strong as someone a little bit older than me. So, how would you describe the treaty
00:26:38
principles bill to someone like me and how would it change how the treaty of Wangi
00:26:45
affects our law makingaking in parliament? >> H well based on your question I think
00:26:50
you you probably understand it better than you you think. Um but look first of all if you go back to the treaty itself
00:26:58
um you know there's two versions we take the Maui version uh because that's the
00:27:02
the convention as you take the the indigenous language and it basically says that the government has the right
00:27:08
to govern uh that the government has a a an obligation to uphold tenor or self-determination over lands and
00:27:17
properties in Tawanga for for Maui people. Um and it says that all people have the same rights and duties. Um then
00:27:25
in 1975 the government said or the parliament at that time said uh here's the treaty of white tangi act. There are
00:27:32
such things as the treaty principles. The white tangi tribunal's job is to work them out. Um and uh we therefore uh
00:27:40
will leave you to it. over the last 50 years since then uh a version of the treaty has emerged which has said okay
00:27:49
yes the government has the right to govern but actually it's in partnership uh with Maui and those equal rights
00:27:58
actually mean equal outcomes now there's a couple of things about that um number
00:28:03
one if if we are seriously saying that the treaty is a partnership between races and that's that's literally what
00:28:09
the court of appeals said Um they also said that it formed a relationship quote akin to a partnership. That means that
00:28:16
forever in a day New Zealand is bound to be uh two groups of people and your role
00:28:22
in society you know do I get consulted on this um resource management project for example do I get put on this uh
00:28:30
government board um etc ends up being decided uh by this treaty partnership uh if you're in the tongat pheninoa then
00:28:39
maybe you are in if you're a tangiti then you're you're kind of a guest
00:28:43
secondly when it comes to the equity part uh we end up trying to work out for health care and education everything is
00:28:50
about take Mari as one group and non Mario as another group and work out statistically if they're the same. Now I
00:28:57
I just make the point that that is a society which is entirely based um on number one you know what's your what's
00:29:07
your ancestral background and number two then we'll think about everything else
00:29:11
and I don't believe um that a society can succeed uh when it tries to divide
00:29:17
people like that so my treaty principles bill took those principles and said well
00:29:23
number one uh the government has the right to govern the parliament has the exclusive right to make laws. That's not
00:29:29
too controversial, but some people actually think that sovereignty was never seeded and therefore there should
00:29:34
be two parliaments or whatever, but there's got to be one parliament. It's
00:29:36
got to be one law as far as I'm concerned. Um, number two, that people should have troang and property rights,
00:29:43
but I said, and some people will, you know, argue about this, uh, I said it should actually apply to all people. You
00:29:49
know, if all people should have property rights, all people should have the right
00:29:52
to self-determine and live their lives as they see fit. And number three, um there should be equal rights uh before
00:29:59
the law. Um not not that there should be equal outcomes, equal rights. So I took
00:30:05
the treaty and what I believe the treaty really was intended and what it meant in
00:30:09
1840. Uh and I I put that into a set of principles I think would be good for New
00:30:14
Zealand. But obviously there's a lot of people who like the partnership idea
00:30:18
partly because it makes them special or because they feel that they're guilty
00:30:22
because of things that happened in the past and therefore um you know there should be different treatment of people
00:30:28
um and for that reason it created a lot of controversy. I still think in the long term that version of the treaty
00:30:36
will prevail because division doesn't work. >> Okay. So you said that everyone should
00:30:41
have equal rights before the law but after the law there shouldn't be equal outcomes. So could you elaborate what
00:30:47
that meant? Because 60% of our prison population is Maui and that means 20% of 900,000 MAI are in prison
00:30:57
>> which is kind of sad. >> Well, you also got to remember I'm not
00:31:02
I'm not quite sure about your 20% of 900,000. >> Sorry, that was >> Yeah, two two% might be. Um the the
00:31:10
putting that aside um the other thing you got to remember is that Mario are also disproportionately
00:31:16
uh victims of crime. Uh so it's not that Mario locked up more because there's
00:31:22
some sort of prejudice. Um it's because there seems to be more crime. Now you
00:31:27
got to get to the bottom of why that is. Um, and the case I would make is that you can either uh look at people through
00:31:34
a lens of what's their ethnic background and just say, "Well, that's it. We're
00:31:38
just going to divide people. You're Mari, you're non-Mari. That's that's as
00:31:41
far as our statistics go." Um, or you can look at a whole lot of other statistics and you can ask yourself, for
00:31:47
example, um, are people rich or poor? Do they live in town or country? What level
00:31:51
of education do they have? The more you do this, the more you start to realize that there's a whole lot of
00:31:58
Mari people who actually doing really well and don't actually need a lot of help. And why why should we? I mean, I
00:32:04
would count myself as one of them. There are a lot of non-Mari people, conversely, who are really badly off um
00:32:10
and are in prison. You know, there's still more poor non-mari than poor Mari
00:32:15
uh in absolute numbers. So, uh you've got to have an answer to to help those
00:32:19
that sector of the society as well. And so I would just argue that if you do good statistics uh then you can start to
00:32:26
address those problems. Whereas if your only um answer is Mari versus non-mari uh then you end up grouping people and
00:32:33
say well lots of Mario in prison but also lots of Mario victims of crime. So you know whatever. I I don't think
00:32:39
that's a good outcome. >> Cool. If I could ask one more question. Um >> one more. It's a hijacker isn't it?
00:32:47
>> Just one more. But um I wanted to ask you a bit about one of your I think one
00:32:54
of your best bills which was the end of life choice bill that you put through was it 2019 or 2020?
00:32:59
>> Uh well the bill passed in 2019 the referendum was in 2020. >> Okay. Um I thought that was really
00:33:05
great. But could you run me through the process of how you took a bill like that
00:33:10
that was previously rejected and then managed to push it through parliament? Um well it it was a slightly different
00:33:18
bill but really the reason for the difference was that the times changed. Um the previous bill was narrowly
00:33:25
defeated uh in 2005 by about another 12 13 years later. Um a lot had changed. More people had experienced bad death.
00:33:35
Lacricia Seals I don't know if you know that name but um she was a very smart
00:33:39
lawyer who had a terrible brain cancer. And the thing about these brain cancers is normally if you have a cancer and
00:33:45
you're in pain, they give you um some sort of opioid to try and um you know dull the pain. But if the pain is in
00:33:53
your brain, then by the time you've dulled the pain, you've also knocked
00:33:56
yourself out. So she couldn't be helped uh any other way. She went to court. She
00:34:01
asked, "Can I uh have my doctor end my life?" The judge said, "No, only
00:34:05
parliament can make that law." And I looked at that and I thought, "Gee, I'm
00:34:09
in Parliament. Maybe I should try and help." Uh and um anyway, her then husband Matt um and I and a bunch of
00:34:18
others uh launched a campaign. But I think in many ways Lacricia Seals made it possible uh along with a whole bunch
00:34:24
of other experiences that people had. By the time I did it, it was just a different time. There was more support
00:34:30
and it was easier to get done. Still wasn't easy. Well, it was easier. It was
00:34:34
still very hard. Yeah. >> Cool. Thanks so much. >> Oh, thanks Henry. It's a real pleasure.
00:34:39
You are a thoughtful guy. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Henry, what do you want to just
00:34:44
throwing it to you for a second? What do you want to do when you leave school? Have you thought much about that?
00:34:47
>> Um, well, as a person at a young age, I think there's a lot of things that I
00:34:53
would have to look at because there are so many different career paths that I could take. Politics is definitely one
00:34:59
of them, but um there are still a lot of things that could be linked with politics or some other things entirely.
00:35:05
Like I could be a lawyer or I could be an author. There are just so many things to consider. But I think hopefully the
00:35:11
more I go through school and the more I learn and the more opportunities I have,
00:35:15
the more I'll get closer to deciding what I actually want to do. >> Yeah. Well, take your time. Don't let
00:35:22
anyone rush you. >> During that interview, I was thinking um from my perspective, you'd be a great
00:35:26
journalist, but please don't do that. You're too good for that. Okay. Don't
00:35:29
don't settle. >> All right. >> Hey, really cool to have you in here
00:35:33
today for having me. >> Appreciate you coming in, mate. >> Nice to meet you, Henry. Nice to meet
00:35:37
you, David. >> Um, how was that? >> Wow. Kind of wonder what you're doing when
00:35:42
you're 13, right? Um, but it was cool. Hope I didn't go on too much. >> No, like he's genuinely smart. Like, he
00:35:49
had some bullet points there, but a lot of it was just um him reacting to to what you were saying. So, I mean, it's
00:35:55
obvious I didn't set him up. He's just a really, really smart kid. >> Look, a lot of journalists accidentally
00:35:59
leave their notes in full view. Um, but it didn't help me this time because he
00:36:03
was actually freewheeling most of it. >> Yeah.