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Welcome to the Domavvey podcast. Great
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conversations with fascinating people.
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On this episode, I talked to Hannah
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McQueen, a powerhouse Kiwi entrepreneur.
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She built, then sold a company called
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Enable Me, and with it helped thousands
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of families get control of their
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finances.
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>> I've got nothing else to lose now. Like,
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I remember thinking, I am at the bottom.
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of being humiliated upon humiliation and
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pay withheld and kind of all these
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things which now if you went back
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you would sue
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well I won't
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>> sue the [ __ ] out of them
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>> yes [laughter] I don't know we allowed
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to say that on this podcast
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>> of course now she's starting all over
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again this time in elderly healthcare
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with a company called Brightly she's on
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a mission to completely rethink how we
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care for aging New Zealanders
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is genuinely the most unguarded I have
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ever heard Hannah McQueen before. And I
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hope you enjoy getting to know the real
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Hannah as much as I did. Hannah McQueen,
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welcome to my podcast.
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>> Hi. [laughter]
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>> I'm I can't believe you're nervous.
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>> I know. I'm slightly apprehensive. I'm
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not sure where you're going to go with
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this, but I'm pleased to be here. Thank
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you for having me.
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>> It's wonderful to be here. We've we've
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got to know you here at uh the Pod Lab
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Studios over the last couple of months
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because we've been helping you working
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on a project and uh it's been um a joy
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so far getting to see how you work.
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[laughter]
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You're you're a force.
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>> Yes, I think I am. I've been told that.
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>> Have you [laughter] Have you Yeah,
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you're you're a force, but yet um very
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very trusting in in other people like
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not a a force without being a control
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freak. as in you know you you you pay
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someone for their advice and you trust
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them if they know if if they know more
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than you in a different field you trust
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them and it's um I think that's quite a
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powerful thing.
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>> I think it's like self-awareness like
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you know when you're good at something
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and you know when someone is better than
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you and being okay with that makes life
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a whole lot easier. And I was even
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talking to my son. I said, "It would
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just be so much easier, Cam, if you just
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acknowledge the areas you need help in."
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[laughter] You know, like for example, I
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want to be fit, but I'm not naturally
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inclined to do anything. Or um I want to
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eat well, but I find it hard to do that.
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Like just knowing that about myself
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means I can get the right help, and then
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I trust that help. I'm not I'm
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definitely not the type of person that
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enlists someone the expert and then
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overrides their kind of recommendation.
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>> A lot of people I think struggle with
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that piece for some maybe it's an ego
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thing, maybe it's a pride thing, but a
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lot of people struggle to say I don't
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know
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>> really.
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>> I think so.
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>> Yeah.
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Oh well,
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how exhausting. [laughter]
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>> It's a lot easier just to acknowledge
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when you don't know.
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>> Anyway, it is great to have you here.
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Um, when people introduce you as the
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money lady, what's the big part of
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Hannah McQueen that they're missing?
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>> Oh, um,
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well, I guess that's
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back in the day that was my day job and
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something I took really seriously and
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something that I it was a craft for me
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and I wanted to be the best in the world
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at what I did. [laughter] Um, but that's
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just your day job, right? Like that's
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what you suit up for and then you've got
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a life outside of that. And um in my
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real life, I'm quite introspective and
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quite quiet. Um I have
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Yeah. I like I like to think and have
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the space to think. And I think when
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you're um when you have a persona,
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you're there. That's what you're engaged
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to do. So you deliver that. But I think
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the private Hannah McQueen is um
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still a force but [laughter]
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um just yeah just reserved.
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>> What's something you're deeply proud of
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that has nothing to do with work?
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>> Probably um my family
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>> um whether that's
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my relationship with my husband or my
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kids, my parents. I think it's funny cuz
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when you when you have success and and I
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have been fortunate enough to have kind
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of different layers of success in life
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and when I exit and enable me I think a
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lot of people objectively would say that
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was a very successful move uh that
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brings the measure often is money um
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but if you don't have kind of my
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reflection
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is that if you don't have a good
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relationship with friends with family.
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You can have all the money in the world
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and it you're empty.
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>> And I remember thinking or reading about
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Steve Jobes and I don't know if he was I
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don't know the person he was. He it
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feels like he openly um acknowledged
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that he wasn't a particularly nice
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person, but I it always just made me sad
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that he was potentially one of the most
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successful people in the world, yet just
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a life filled with dysfunction with
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those relationships that are so
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critical.
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>> It's hard though. I I've had Sir Peter
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Beck from Rocket Lab on the podcast and
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uh he had a quote that stuck with me
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saying um if you're going to achieve
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something huge in life, you can't do it
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on a 8 to 5 Monday to Friday schedule.
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>> So there are sacrifices that have to
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make. So to be like a Steve a Steve Jobs
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and create Apple um Yeah. I mean there's
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only so many hours in the day that
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you've got to choose how to spend them.
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>> Yeah, you do. And with those hours that
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you're not working, right? like you've
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got to be present and engaged and that's
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really hard to do like when you've kind
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of had a full day of work and you are
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just
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>> spent to then kind of switch into okay
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now it's time to be a mom or a partner
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or a daughter.
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>> Um but that's something I guess it's
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that that will be my life life's
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journey.
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>> Um
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>> these things things you're proud of. You
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said nothing about your marathon journey
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so far. I've got here I'm holding up for
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those [laughter] listening to it.
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>> He was certificate from the um the 50th
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Berlin Marathon last year.
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>> Um why are you embarrassed about this?
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So what have you done? You've done the
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New York Marathon, Berlin.
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>> Yes. Uh and the London. It's not that
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I'm embarrassed. [laughter]
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I am just a bit more discreet. And and
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[laughter] I think because I am yet to
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achieve the time that I want, I'm just
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keeping it on the down low. So,
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[laughter]
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um, God,
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>> you're so competitive, eh? So, your your
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your New York time was, um, 5:05. Your
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Berlin time, you shaved like 25 minutes
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off it.
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>> 4:40. Um,
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>> yeah, I was going for 4:30. So, it
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actually felt like a fail. [laughter]
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>> Did you? Oh, that's Hannah, that's
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terrible. Like, there's there's some
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stupid stat like one or two% of the
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world's population ever will run a
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marathon. So, the fact that you're even
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there doing it and anytime um puts you
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in this really elite little pointy
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group.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, I get it. But I I just I
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know what I want to achieve and so I
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when I have a goal I set out to achieve
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it and when I don't um I in fact the
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Berlin marathon I think the highlight
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for that mar marathon I mean I was
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pleased with my time 440 I was going for
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4:30 um but at the end I mean my body
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just pretty much shuts down at the end
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and I was lying in um a paddic somewhere
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when you kind of walk through to the
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paddic
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And I'm I don't think I'm going to be
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able to get back to the hotel. Like this
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is not cool. And I called my son who was
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17 and he was there. Um and I said,
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"Cam, I don't know where I am.
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[laughter]
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I think I'm in a paddic, but can you
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come and find me and can you take me
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back?" Cuz my husband was with our
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daughter. And
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he found me and he pretty much carried
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me back to the hotel. And that was
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probably the proudest part of that
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marathon for me cuz I thought he's
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actually got empathy. Who knew? That's
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so nice. And he came through. [gasps]
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Yeah. Cuz life's about coming through at
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the right times. And he came through for
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me. And so that I was just as proud of
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that moment as I was um finishing that
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wretched race.
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>> Finishing. Um you by the way you you you
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think of you you go through the
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Brandenburg Gates and then it finishes,
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but it's actually like another half
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kilometer. I am so sick of those stupid
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kind of like false finishes. And that is
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life, isn't it? It's like you
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>> you think you're there and then you're
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uhoh, no you're not. Here we go again.
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Yeah. Cuz the same as with New York when
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you run into Central Park and you're
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like ready to kind of um yeah, hang up
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your gloves. But when I did Well,
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something I probably was proud of was
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when I did the Coast to Coast. This is
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like many, many years ago. Um but it was
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a similar feeling. you bike into um
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Christ Church and you kind of think,
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okay, we're finally here, but there's
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another 20ks to get to SAR. So, that
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that feeling of you're there. No, you're
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not. Uh that's something that I think
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you've got to get used to in life.
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>> Oh, so you've got a history with
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insurance. I I didn't know you'd done
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the coast to coast.
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>> Yeah. Yep. I did. Well, it was so long
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ago. I kind of think your life often
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fits into two parts. There's what you
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did before kids and what you did after
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kids. and any I always think it's weird
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when people who have kids, you know,
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that are almost adults are referring to
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days before kids as sort of as if it was
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really close. That was another lifetime
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ago. In my other life, I did coast to
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coast. I trained for an Iron Man. I
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ended up doing a half iron man. Um, I
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don't think I did any of them
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particularly well, but I
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Yeah, I think the coast to coast
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probably was a moment for me that
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probably changed the trajectory of my
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life because um it was weird like I
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don't know how old I was, maybe 22 or
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23. And um [snorts] you go away and you
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do it in a weekend and and then you come
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back to work on the Monday, right? And
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so everyone else has just had a normal
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weekend. And I remember walking into
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work, I think I was working at KPMG at
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that point and I just thought I have
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changed the direction of my life over
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the weekend and for you it was just
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other people walking around. It was just
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another another normal weekend and it's
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just interesting that sort of in that
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moment you can have that sliding doors
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experience and suddenly you're through
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to
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>> another dimension.
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>> Yeah. And and no one knows or sort of
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respects it or appreciates it either.
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[laughter]
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>> No. If you wear the coast to coast
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medal, they'll be like, "Oh, well."
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>> Well, I'm I'm not really I think people
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who wear the medal, I'm just like, "Put
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that medal away." Cuz that's what they
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do after the marathon. Like people are
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prancing around the city with their
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medals and I'm like, "Oh, is that
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necessary?" Like, [laughter] but for
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them it's it's part of their moment as
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they clink clack around the the city
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with their medals. But
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>> I I've sort of changed my perspective on
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that a little bit. Like the first time I
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did the the American ones in particular,
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the Americans wear it with pride and
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they'll wear it for days afterwards. And
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I thought it's a Kiwi thing to sort of
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fold it up and put it in your pocket. So
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I I feel like there's at least maybe a
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period of 24 hours after
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>> you can celebrate it. Yeah. Look, I
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don't judge. Well, maybe I do. I just
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I'm just like this is weird. Yeah.
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>> But I remember I think I've followed
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that coast to coast experience. How that
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started was I think it was like a
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Saturday afternoon back in the day, you
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know, like 20 odd years ago where I
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think there was sports on Saturday.
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Firstly, there was a TV that you would
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watch and there was a sports in the
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afternoon and um and it was always
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something dad would watch. It was always
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boring. But I saw this clip of the coast
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to coast. I think it was Steve Gurnie.
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Is that is that the same?
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Coast to coast legend.
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>> Yeah. Amazing. I saw this. I'm like that
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looks amazing. Like I'd never even kind
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of thought of this endurance event
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thing. I thought I think I'm just going
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to do that. And it was sort of as
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instant as that. But the problem is I
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didn't know how to run. I didn't own a
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bike and I'd never kayaked. And I
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remember um so it was sort of a standing
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start if you will and I just thought
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well I was looking at these people and I
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do this often maybe I am super
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judgmental. I'm like if they can do it
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I'm pretty sure I could. So I kind of
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assess my own ability initially with who
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I'm surrounded by. But that's when I
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called Barry McGee and I said um I don't
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know how to run but I need to be able to
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run 30ks or whatever. and he said
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[laughter]
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something like, "Come back to me when
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you can run 10ks or something like
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[laughter] that."
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>> Barry McGee, by the way, one of the
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early guests on my podcast, uh, bronze
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medalist at the, um, Olympic marathon in
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Rome in 1960. Incredible, incredible
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event.
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>> Great.
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>> He was amazing. So, he trained me for
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the running for that. And I actually,
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weird fact, um, we went to a YouTube
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concert in that Rome stadium and I had a
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minute where I'm like kind of saluting
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the legends of the past, Barry McGee,
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Peter Snell, you know, like these
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>> Yeah. Hellburg Liard.
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>> Incredible. Incredible. So that was
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quite um,
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>> yeah, just a little quiet moment. Um,
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but yeah, so I did that and then I took
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kayak lessons and what a drama that was
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and then had to ride a bike. I mean, I
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knew how to ride a bike, but I just
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hadn't ridden distance. And but the
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actual event was was kind of interesting
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because back in those days, you could
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you couldn't not that I actually would
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have done this, but I you couldn't do a
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one-day event. You had your first entry
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had to be a two-day event. Um, and so I
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get in and
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I didn't know there were a few things I
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didn't know how to do. And I had tried
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to learn. I just didn't know how to do
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them. I just could not change a tire on
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my bike for love or money. I just
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couldn't do it. They're so skinny and
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[laughter] it was annoying. And I
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couldn't flip my kayak back up. So, if I
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fell over, I couldn't flip. I couldn't
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roll. And I had tried I had coaching and
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I'm like, "This just isn't going to
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happen." And I [snorts] got to um
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the end of the first day. So, I think
00:13:57
you you' done the 60k bike ride perhaps
00:14:00
and maybe a run beforehand and then the
00:14:02
60k bike ride and then the mountain run.
00:14:04
Ghost Pass.
00:14:05
>> Yeah. Ghost Pass. And you're only
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supposed to maybe do like 10 or 12 river
00:14:08
crossings. I think I did 22. Like I was
00:14:10
just so confused as to where I was on
00:14:12
this course. And I got to the end and my
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husband grabbed my bike and I had two
00:14:17
flat like slow punctures on my tie and
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so he got it and he was able to change
00:14:21
that for me before I started the next
00:14:22
day. But I was just like imagine if I
00:14:24
was on the course and I had these flat
00:14:25
tires. I just wouldn't know what to do.
00:14:27
And then the the next day you we're
00:14:30
going in to do the kayak and um my dad
00:14:34
and Billy, that's my husband, they push
00:14:36
you off. So, you've done like a 25k.
00:14:39
You're feeling so sick from the day
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before. Like, I just like what am I
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doing? And my mom's like, "What are you
00:14:44
doing?" Like, "You should have been
00:14:45
doing this isn't good for the a woman's
00:14:47
body, [laughter] you know, like yap yap
00:14:49
yap." And um so then you do this this
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25k bike ride and then you're up for
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this 70k kayak. And I thought, look, I'm
00:14:57
not particularly fast, so I'm going to
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make up all my time in my transition.
00:15:02
So, that's where I'll make up some time.
00:15:03
And before that, I had made the
00:15:05
conclusion that you're either fast or
00:15:08
you're endurance.
00:15:10
And I'm like, well, I'm definitely not
00:15:12
fast, so I must be endurance. But I have
00:15:14
since concluded you can be neither,
00:15:16
which I possibly am. That
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>> Oh, come on. You've definitely got
00:15:19
endurance. I think you're you're made of
00:15:21
tough stuff where you
00:15:22
>> Well, phys Yes, I can do like mental
00:15:24
endurance and I guess I can do the odd
00:15:26
sporting event, but when we got to the
00:15:28
kayak because I was making my transition
00:15:30
so fast. My dad, they pushed me off and
00:15:36
and you've got your skirt on. I remember
00:15:37
I can't flip or anything. And I'm like,
00:15:40
you haven't given me my pedal. And so I
00:15:44
yell out, I'm like, "Dad, my paddle."
00:15:46
And this like the YAC at that point was
00:15:49
traveling pretty fast. So I was moving
00:15:51
fast and there were like some of these
00:15:53
moments in life where you're like you
00:15:55
you cannot afford to fumble this. I had
00:15:58
one of those moments. Dad
00:16:00
>> got my um
00:16:03
paddle thing and he javelin through it
00:16:06
to me and I was cuz I was like moving
00:16:09
away like they were there and I was
00:16:10
moving away and I'm like okay I've just
00:16:13
got to catch this. and I caught it.
00:16:16
Amazing. And then off I go. And um and I
00:16:21
said to my parents, I said cuz they were
00:16:23
meeting me at the other end. So that was
00:16:24
the one of the first big transitions was
00:16:26
he didn't give me the equipment I needed
00:16:28
to do the job. I mean you can't do your
00:16:30
job if you don't have the equipment. So
00:16:31
that was one fumble. And then I said to
00:16:34
them, it'll take me about 6 hours, but I
00:16:36
actually did it in 4 and 1/2 hours. Like
00:16:38
I kind of surprised everyone. And so
00:16:40
they were they were saying these are the
00:16:42
numbers that are coming in. And um my
00:16:46
parents and and Billy were like, "Hold
00:16:48
on, that's Hannah's number. Like she's
00:16:50
earlier than thought than we expected."
00:16:52
And so I got out of the kite and you
00:16:54
just can't even move. Like you're just
00:16:56
it's just oh it's grim. And now carry me
00:16:59
up the road to transition to the bikes.
00:17:02
And so then mum's in charge of the bike.
00:17:03
Like that was her moment to shine was to
00:17:06
get me on that bike. And she gets me on
00:17:08
and she pushes me off but she had my
00:17:10
helmet on back the front. Right.
00:17:12
[laughter] So, I was I was just a mess.
00:17:13
I was a hot mess. Um, but I got to the
00:17:17
end and I remember uh trying to uncip
00:17:20
myself before you run the 800 m along
00:17:22
the beach and cuz I was on my bike and
00:17:25
I'm I just can't even uncip myself. And
00:17:27
so I'm saying to this this person, I'm
00:17:29
like, can you just uncip me? I'm just
00:17:30
lying on the ground with my bike on top
00:17:32
of me. I'm can't I am so spent. And
00:17:35
that's kind of how I finish my
00:17:37
marathons, just I've left it all out
00:17:39
there. It paints um it paints a good
00:17:41
picture, especially with the support
00:17:42
crew aspect, you know, your husband and
00:17:44
your parents. Um
00:17:46
>> yeah. So, let's go way back. What did
00:17:48
you want to be when you grew up?
00:17:50
>> I actually wanted to manage a fish and
00:17:52
chip store.
00:17:54
>> Oh, you're funny, [laughter] haven't
00:17:55
you?
00:17:57
>> Never too late.
00:17:58
>> That was And then I moved on to I'm
00:17:59
going to manage a McDonald's.
00:18:01
>> Um and then I wanted to be a pharmacist
00:18:03
and then I decided I hated science and
00:18:05
then I'm like, okay, I'm going to go
00:18:06
down the finance route. But my first job
00:18:08
that I ever wanted was to run manage a
00:18:12
fish and chip store because that was
00:18:13
back in the day where on Friday night
00:18:14
you go and get fish and chips from your
00:18:16
local Chinese takeaway or whatever. And
00:18:18
I just used to love how they wrapped the
00:18:20
fish and chips, you know, they were
00:18:21
really speedy like and then they pass
00:18:24
you. I just thought that was just
00:18:26
magical.
00:18:27
>> Um but yeah, so
00:18:28
>> even sometimes an old manual to evening
00:18:30
standards for me which doesn't seem
00:18:32
hygienic now.
00:18:33
>> No, it [laughter] doesn't. But there was
00:18:35
just something tasty.
00:18:36
>> Yeah. Um, what was the most trouble you
00:18:38
got in? Did
00:18:40
>> I didn't really get in trouble.
00:18:41
>> Yeah. Would you Would you describe
00:18:42
yourself looking back as a nerd?
00:18:45
>> Um,
00:18:46
yeah. Uh, I think my my kids certainly
00:18:49
would describe me as a nerd. [laughter]
00:18:51
>> I feel like the the word's been
00:18:53
reclaimed, right?
00:18:54
>> Yeah.
00:18:54
>> Like it can be viewed as a compliment.
00:18:57
>> Yeah. I guess when I think of a nerd,
00:18:59
they're not really socially
00:19:02
they don't interact so much. Whereas I
00:19:04
was very social. I just my friends and I
00:19:08
maybe I'm refusing we were nerds you
00:19:09
know like we wanted to do well we wanted
00:19:11
to please um we all did sports we all
00:19:14
did rep sports and
00:19:16
>> we played musical instruments you know
00:19:18
that and that was just the norm of the
00:19:20
people that I was surrounded by which my
00:19:22
son would definitely say well you just
00:19:24
sound like a nerd but I didn't feel like
00:19:26
a nerd then I always thought that there
00:19:27
were other nerds that were nerdier
00:19:29
[laughter] than me
00:19:30
>> it's quite funny cuz you and you I'm
00:19:31
slightly older than you but um and I
00:19:33
went to an old boy school palmy boys
00:19:34
high school and um if if you did the
00:19:36
things you described, you'd be called a
00:19:37
tryhard. And I look back now and I
00:19:39
think, well, a tryhard's a wonderful
00:19:40
thing. [laughter] Like, what's wrong
00:19:42
with what's bad about trying hard?
00:19:44
>> Yeah.
00:19:45
>> Yeah. I always think that a tryard is
00:19:47
someone who kind of tries to suck up.
00:19:49
That was it. And I never tried to suck
00:19:51
up. It was always just me. M
00:19:54
>> but the an observation was I think a
00:19:57
friend told me once she'd describe me as
00:19:59
a salmon where they always swim against
00:20:02
the current you know or the current
00:20:04
doesn't most people just drift along
00:20:06
with the current. I'm
00:20:08
>> not interested in drifting in any area
00:20:11
of my life and I'm very comfortable
00:20:13
swimming against it if I need to.
00:20:15
>> And so I think yeah that just comes
00:20:18
through.
00:20:18
>> Yeah. And you you left school early,
00:20:21
right? You left school a year early and
00:20:22
went to So you went to university when
00:20:24
you were 17.
00:20:25
>> Yeah, I just turned 17 that month.
00:20:27
>> What was that like? Was that lonely?
00:20:29
>> Um,
00:20:31
>> I'm just think at at that at that age
00:20:33
like one year is a a massive length, you
00:20:34
know, a massive time span. So did you
00:20:36
did you feel like heaps younger than the
00:20:38
other people in your
00:20:39
>> No, I didn't. Cuz I always felt quite
00:20:41
mature,
00:20:42
>> right?
00:20:42
>> Um I
00:20:46
It's funny. Uh yeah, it was daunting. Um
00:20:50
my first day, you know, I was a year
00:20:52
younger, so I'd missed a whole year of
00:20:54
learning and I wasn't particularly
00:20:56
smart. I mean, I was smarter than
00:20:57
average, but I wasn't like an amazing
00:20:59
student. Um and so you're going to this
00:21:03
new city and um cuz I was from Havlock
00:21:07
North and so I was moving to Oakland and
00:21:10
um
00:21:10
>> Oh, did you leave home?
00:21:12
>> Yeah.
00:21:12
>> Wow.
00:21:14
>> Yeah. So I guess it's all about your
00:21:15
references, right? Like my mom came to
00:21:18
New Zealand when she was 17 from
00:21:19
Australia. So that it it felt like there
00:21:22
was sort of a path that was already a
00:21:24
little bit it it wasn't out of the
00:21:26
ordinary. And mom I know that mom wanted
00:21:28
me to get out of Hawks Bay quite
00:21:30
quickly. I think she was seeing that I
00:21:31
was becoming bored and kind of um she
00:21:35
wanted to stretch me and kind of
00:21:37
distract me with other things. And so
00:21:39
she really encouraged me to go or I said
00:21:41
I wanted to and she really encouraged it
00:21:43
and supported that. Um but yeah, I
00:21:46
remember my first day of university. I
00:21:48
remember um meeting people for the first
00:21:51
time and I'm still friends with those
00:21:52
people cuz
00:21:53
>> they become your lifeline. Yeah.
00:21:55
>> And why accountancy?
00:21:58
>> I thought um
00:22:02
it it was just I thought I would run a
00:22:04
business eventually and when you look at
00:22:05
people CEOs who run businesses they kind
00:22:08
of come from two backgrounds. either
00:22:10
accounting trained or they are pretty
00:22:13
magnificent salespeople and uh I wanted
00:22:17
to run a business and I'm like well I'll
00:22:19
get the
00:22:21
I'll I'll kind of do the traditional
00:22:23
path cuz of what tends to happen is you
00:22:24
do your accountancy and then you become
00:22:26
a CFO and then that's how kind of the
00:22:28
transition the CEO leaves and the CFO
00:22:30
steps in I think and that's sort of a
00:22:33
path and I'm like yeah I can see that
00:22:34
path and I think I would like that. I
00:22:36
didn't um what I didn't realize is that
00:22:39
I um
00:22:43
can be quite influential and persuasive.
00:22:46
Uh so I had more of a a sales tendency
00:22:50
than what my um qualification suggested
00:22:53
because accountants generally aren't
00:22:55
people
00:22:56
people you know they uh they're boring
00:22:59
and all of those things whereas I
00:23:01
thought that I was quite uh in my
00:23:03
accounting way quite verbaceious and um
00:23:06
I remember when I was at um working for
00:23:09
one of the big four accounting firms um
00:23:12
one of the partners said
00:23:15
you'll ever going to be a partner here
00:23:18
or something like that. And that was
00:23:20
that was kind of for a lot of people
00:23:21
that you do that you you start that
00:23:25
trajectory. And so that was quite um
00:23:28
confronting. But I but at the same time
00:23:30
I'm like thank you cuz I don't want to
00:23:33
be but he's like you're just not suited
00:23:36
to the profession. And um
00:23:39
>> was he being mean?
00:23:41
Um,
00:23:41
>> was his delivery mean or was it a when
00:23:44
you reflect on it now,
00:23:47
>> if that's what most people's goal is and
00:23:49
he's saying that to you, it feels like
00:23:50
it could be crushing a lot of people's
00:23:51
dreams. Not your dream, but a lot of
00:23:53
other people's.
00:23:53
>> Yeah. I think that there was a um
00:23:58
um I think he was needlessly cruel
00:24:02
>> in the name of being honest.
00:24:05
>> That's a Taylor Swift lyric.
00:24:07
>> It is all too well. Are [screaming] you
00:24:09
a Swifty? I'm a Swifty, [laughter] but
00:24:11
I've only just become a Swifty.
00:24:12
>> So Casually Cruel in the name of being
00:24:14
honest. All Too Well, the 10-minute
00:24:16
version. I love I've got goosebumps. I
00:24:18
can't believe it. It's the greatest
00:24:19
Taylor Swift song of all time.
00:24:20
>> So good. So good. Well, this I don't
00:24:22
know if you know this about me. I went
00:24:24
to see her um in Sydney and also at
00:24:27
Wembley.
00:24:28
>> Oh, unbelievable. Wow.
00:24:30
>> Yeah.
00:24:31
>> Unbelievable. Oh, you know all too well.
00:24:34
>> I didn't even know it before someone got
00:24:36
me a ticket. And you know how the
00:24:38
tickets came out a year ahead. Um
00:24:40
they're like, "You need to listen to the
00:24:41
set list." And that's when I started to
00:24:43
listen to it. I'm like, "Oh, she's
00:24:44
actually quite good."
00:24:44
>> Oh, it's a phenomenal song.
00:24:46
>> Yeah.
00:24:47
>> So,
00:24:49
so, so you you do your degree.
00:24:50
[laughter]
00:24:51
That's amazing. I can't we connected
00:24:53
over that. That's wonderful. That's
00:24:54
really wonderful. Um so, you do your
00:24:56
degree, then you get a masters in
00:24:57
taxation, which sounds like the most
00:24:59
tedious and boring thing ever.
00:25:00
>> Yeah. So, there was sort of a means to
00:25:02
the end. I wanted to um pay the least
00:25:05
amount of tax possible [laughter]
00:25:06
and I wanted to do that legitimately.
00:25:08
And so I'm okay, I'm just going to learn
00:25:10
it. And for my accounting qualification,
00:25:13
I needed to do another year before I
00:25:15
could be signed off of university.
00:25:18
And so I I'm okay, I'm going to maximize
00:25:20
what I get out of that. So I ended up
00:25:21
taking, I think, 18 months to do it. And
00:25:24
um yeah, did a master of tax law.
00:25:27
>> And there's this moment um in the Hannah
00:25:29
McQueen story that's almost mythical
00:25:30
now. I've heard this I've heard you talk
00:25:31
about this story on so many podcasts um
00:25:34
where you've got this job and you
00:25:36
pitched the idea of what became enabled
00:25:38
me to your boss.
00:25:38
>> Oh yeah.
00:25:39
>> And um he fired you. Has that have you
00:25:42
added GST to that story? Is that
00:25:44
embellished? Were you actually fired or
00:25:46
did he just like shut the idea down?
00:25:48
>> No, no. Walked and cuz and remember I'm
00:25:51
a people pleaser and I'm a nerd. Um so
00:25:55
that that was kind of like it was a
00:25:57
pretty jarring experience. And people
00:25:59
ask me, um, do you think about him or do
00:26:03
you want to say anything? And I'm like,
00:26:05
I don't think about him. Well, maybe if
00:26:07
I'm asked a question, I think he was a
00:26:09
fool.
00:26:10
>> Um, I don't even know if he was
00:26:12
threatened or if he was just a fool,
00:26:14
>> but so much of life is those random
00:26:18
things. And and it was surprising and
00:26:21
cuz it was I was I was with a friend and
00:26:23
we were talking about the idea of hey
00:26:25
instead of helping people get into
00:26:27
mortgages why don't we help them get out
00:26:29
of debt and um
00:26:33
and that's what we pitched to him and
00:26:34
he's like but the thing that was
00:26:36
annoying is that he said and I'm again
00:26:39
I'm a nerd and I'm logical. He's like
00:26:40
that sounds like such a great idea. Can
00:26:42
you do me up the business plan? And so
00:26:44
we tutored around and I gave that to him
00:26:46
or we gave that to him. Um, and so we
00:26:49
just And then he's like, "Okay, well,
00:26:51
um, that's not going to happen and you
00:26:53
can leave cuz you're going into
00:26:55
competition."
00:26:56
And we weren't. And I remember saying to
00:26:58
him, "If we were going into competition,
00:27:02
why would we give you our business
00:27:03
plan?" Like, it was sort of illogical.
00:27:06
But anyway, he um, excuse
00:27:08
[clears throat] me, he marched us and I
00:27:10
remember I had my little box and I
00:27:12
waddled out of the office with my stuff
00:27:14
and I'm like, "How did this even
00:27:15
happen?" And like, you know, sometimes
00:27:18
you can do stuff that's um you're
00:27:20
pushing a boundary, you know, like you
00:27:22
know that you're pushing it and you're
00:27:24
waiting for someone to say kind of clip
00:27:27
your ears. There was no pushing of any
00:27:30
boundary. It was
00:27:34
>> But that people ask if I'm bitter and
00:27:36
I'm like, why would I be bitter?
00:27:37
>> Yeah. But did it do anything to your
00:27:38
self-esteem at the time?
00:27:40
>> Um
00:27:42
>> I mean here here you are. You're
00:27:43
reasonably young. You've got this idea.
00:27:45
you're you you're a people pleaser. You
00:27:46
think you're doing the right thing and
00:27:47
it it backfires in the worst way
00:27:49
imaginable.
00:27:51
>> Well, I'm I don't remember my
00:27:54
self-esteem. I mean, my friend had been
00:27:56
fired as well, so I we had each other.
00:27:58
[laughter]
00:27:59
Um, but I do think there was an
00:28:04
acknowledgment of what has happened,
00:28:07
what has happened to my life or what
00:28:08
have I become for this to be the thing?
00:28:11
and and that I've got nothing else to
00:28:14
lose now. Like I remember thinking I am
00:28:17
at the bottom [laughter] of being
00:28:19
humiliated upon humiliation and
00:28:23
pay withheld and kind of all these
00:28:26
things which now if you went back
00:28:29
you would sue
00:28:32
well I won't
00:28:34
>> sue the [ __ ] out of them. [laughter]
00:28:35
>> I don't know we allowed to say that on
00:28:37
this podcast
00:28:38
>> of course.
00:28:39
>> Yeah. you're just like this is just
00:28:40
unacceptable and
00:28:42
but you got to choose your battles,
00:28:45
right? And I'm a believer is you got to
00:28:47
face forward like let the the shadow
00:28:50
will fall away and it does and you you
00:28:52
just create such a gulf between you. Uh
00:28:54
but that was the catalyst to everything
00:28:57
and from there I was talk my friend and
00:29:00
I were like well should we actually give
00:29:01
it a go? and um
00:29:05
we we tried to together but that sort of
00:29:07
after a few weeks it didn't really work
00:29:09
and then that's when I decided that I
00:29:12
would call the calculus department of
00:29:13
the University of Oakland. And I'm like,
00:29:14
"Okay, it's sort of like, okay, game on,
00:29:16
Hannah." You know, like this is enough
00:29:18
of this, whatever this stage is, enough.
00:29:21
Um, let's do this. And that's when I
00:29:24
called them and I said, I'd like to you
00:29:26
to work on a formula with me to pay
00:29:28
mortgages off as fast as possible at the
00:29:29
lowest cost with maximum flexibility.
00:29:32
And that, I guess, went all the way back
00:29:35
to when I came to university early. Um,
00:29:39
that was the department that I had my
00:29:41
first courses in was in the mathematics
00:29:43
department. And so it was yeah it was a
00:29:47
yeah I it was just a moment I guess.
00:29:50
>> So this is like two decades ago now. Do
00:29:52
you think um innovation like what you
00:29:55
and your friend showed now is would
00:29:56
still be punished in some traditional
00:29:58
workplaces or do you think it would be
00:29:59
sort of flawed? You do do you?
00:30:01
>> Yes.
00:30:01
>> So nothing's changed. Oh, I think lots
00:30:04
of things have changed, but I think that
00:30:05
that you still when you're dealing with
00:30:08
um insecure people or people who are
00:30:11
wanting to patch protect I mean and on
00:30:14
one hand I guess the graciousness is
00:30:16
well if I had nothing else to offer I'd
00:30:19
patch protect as well you know like but
00:30:21
I see that with what I'm doing now when
00:30:23
I go into the health care industry I'm
00:30:28
>> I'm just seeing
00:30:30
worse versions or a whole lot more
00:30:32
versions of that character from back
00:30:34
then. The difference is I know how to
00:30:37
navigate those people now
00:30:39
>> and I'm pretty quick on my feet.
00:30:40
>> Do you think about that? You call him
00:30:41
that character back then. Do you think
00:30:43
about him very often?
00:30:44
>> No.
00:30:44
>> No. What do you did you think about him
00:30:46
at all like when there were like um
00:30:49
important or successful milestones with
00:30:50
enable me [laughter]
00:30:52
>> and the opportunity that he missed? No.
00:30:54
>> No. I have with some people I've felt
00:30:55
that but not with that particular
00:30:57
person. So um yeah 2007 at the age of 27
00:31:01
that's when you founded enable me um if
00:31:04
someone asked you back then when you saw
00:31:06
yourself and the company 18 years later
00:31:08
um what would your answer have been?
00:31:10
>> Where I am
00:31:11
>> really
00:31:13
I was planning to build um and at some
00:31:16
point I knew I would exit and I knew
00:31:18
that there would be people who could
00:31:22
help take the business to the next
00:31:23
level. I wasn't sure if I wanted at that
00:31:28
time in 2007 whether I wanted to be part
00:31:30
of that growth or whether there was
00:31:31
again a a kind of move to the side but
00:31:35
um yeah it's all kind of part of a plan.
00:31:39
>> So when it ended um you you sold for a a
00:31:41
great sum of money and how many staff
00:31:43
how many staff at Enable Me at the end?
00:31:45
>> I don't know at the end
00:31:46
>> like 100
00:31:47
>> close to 100. Yeah. Um I think the last
00:31:50
time we counted the staff um was in the
00:31:53
middle of CO and I think we had 99 or
00:31:55
100. Yeah.
00:31:57
>> And we sold just after CO.
00:31:58
>> That must be incredibly gratifying like
00:32:00
knowing that you've created jobs for
00:32:01
that many people.
00:32:02
>> That's huge, right?
00:32:05
>> Yeah. It's satisfying. Um I guess the
00:32:07
flip side in CO was because there was so
00:32:10
much uncertainty and life is about being
00:32:13
able to navigate the uncertainty. Um but
00:32:17
you know that's 100 families that are
00:32:18
relying on you to make sure the business
00:32:20
is a success.
00:32:21
>> I remember going to the um talking to
00:32:24
the banks and co and whether obviously
00:32:28
I'd followed my own advice so I was
00:32:29
mortgage free. [laughter] Um but going
00:32:32
back to the bank to say okay well we
00:32:34
might need to get a you know a mortgage
00:32:36
if if needed to fund
00:32:38
>> these families that you're proud of to
00:32:40
be part of your team and you you do see
00:32:42
them as an extension of your own family.
00:32:45
Um, but it didn't get to that. But
00:32:49
the thought that it could was
00:32:52
confronting.
00:32:54
>> What were the hardest lessons about
00:32:56
being an entrepreneur earlier in the
00:32:57
piece? What were those early years like?
00:33:00
Well, I think that I was
00:33:03
I think I just might live in my own
00:33:05
little bubble, you know, like
00:33:08
someone someone
00:33:10
had written
00:33:12
or had said something derogatory of me
00:33:15
and I remember this guy that I work
00:33:17
with, Hamish, who I just he's such a
00:33:18
great guy and I'm I can't believe that
00:33:22
person has said that about me and he
00:33:26
said, "There are lots of people who
00:33:27
don't like you, Hannah. we just don't
00:33:29
tell you about it. [laughter]
00:33:31
And I was like, really? How come they
00:33:33
don't like me? Uh, yeah. So, I
00:33:39
I'm okay. I'm okay with who I am. And I
00:33:43
try and be um I hold myself to a high
00:33:47
count. But in my mind, I don't know what
00:33:49
people hear in their minds, but in my
00:33:51
mind, I have quite an encouraging voice.
00:33:53
You know, it's a you've got this hand or
00:33:55
we can do this hand. Um there's never a
00:34:00
um
00:34:01
yeah I don't I don't have a negative
00:34:03
voice. I don't know if
00:34:05
>> your internal voice.
00:34:06
>> My internal voice. Yeah.
00:34:07
>> So that's reassuring.
00:34:08
>> That's brilliant.
00:34:09
>> Yeah.
00:34:09
>> But how long was it cuz um JJ and I have
00:34:12
just started this business called Pod
00:34:13
Lab in the last year or so.
00:34:15
>> We're still in this what we call the
00:34:17
sweat equity phase.
00:34:18
>> Yeah.
00:34:19
>> Um how long were you how long were you
00:34:20
in the trenches for? I did hear stories
00:34:22
early on about you like going to
00:34:24
Wellington for meetings and you had your
00:34:25
your son on your hip. Maybe this was
00:34:27
during the global financial crisis.
00:34:28
>> Well, we started just when the so 2007 I
00:34:32
found out that I was pregnant 3 months
00:34:34
later. Like what a cluster. Uh and then
00:34:36
it was 2008, the global financial
00:34:38
crisis. And what the that financial
00:34:40
crisis said to me was what the beauty of
00:34:43
the financial crisis is it gave everyone
00:34:46
permission to acknowledge that they
00:34:48
weren't that good with money. They had
00:34:50
always not been good with money. It just
00:34:52
gave them permission to be honest about
00:34:53
it. So I thought that was kind of an
00:34:54
interesting that kind of when there is
00:34:57
general consensus people are prepared to
00:35:00
give ground I guess. But yeah, so that
00:35:04
was pretty intense that period like the
00:35:07
sweat equity that probably gives me um
00:35:12
makes me feel uncomfortable for you if
00:35:14
if it was like my sweat equity
00:35:16
[laughter] because you're working I mean
00:35:18
I had my son and I didn't I wanted him
00:35:20
to be with me and we had an office in
00:35:22
Wellington and um I'd go down every week
00:35:25
and we were so we just had no money so I
00:35:28
had to excuse me for those I had to fly
00:35:30
Jet uh [laughter] with my son. Anyone
00:35:33
who knows me, I'm not I'm that isn't my
00:35:36
doesn't necessarily align with me. Um
00:35:39
>> I'm I'm the same, but I'm also in two
00:35:41
minds about Jet Star cuz I know that
00:35:42
they're important cuz without them, New
00:35:44
Zealand doesn't have a competitor.
00:35:45
>> Yes.
00:35:45
>> But I don't want to fly, but I'm pleased
00:35:47
they're there.
00:35:48
>> Absolutely. And so anyway, that's all I
00:35:50
could afford. Uh so I flew them with Cam
00:35:53
on my lap and then I couldn't even
00:35:55
afford a taxi at the other end. So, we'd
00:35:57
catch a bus and I did that for a year,
00:35:59
maybe even two years. Um,
00:36:03
>> and again, my mom always believed that I
00:36:06
could do it. She was an incredible
00:36:07
support during that time. Um, and I do
00:36:11
think if the people you love most or
00:36:13
respect most are encouraging you, that I
00:36:16
mean, that's probably one of the most
00:36:17
powerful medicines you can ever be
00:36:18
given.
00:36:19
>> Well, you must have been confident it
00:36:20
was going to work or you know what I
00:36:23
mean? Or do do you look you look back in
00:36:25
on that time and you um enjoy it
00:36:28
>> that time?
00:36:29
>> Yeah. A lot a lot of people say these
00:36:30
you when you're going through the
00:36:31
struggle of starting up a new business,
00:36:33
people go you'll look back and you know
00:36:35
think fondly of these of these times.
00:36:38
>> I [laughter] would say they're lying to
00:36:39
your face.
00:36:40
>> Oh, good. I'm so pleased you said that.
00:36:42
>> No. Um [clears throat] no. And that's
00:36:45
interesting. When I moved to what I'm
00:36:46
doing now, I had to think to myself cuz
00:36:49
I I am I like to think I'm brutally
00:36:53
honest with myself, but it was a moment
00:36:55
with my internal voice. Do I have it in
00:36:58
me to do this again? Because it was so
00:37:02
taxing and so grueling and I probably
00:37:05
think I've got um PTSD from it to be
00:37:08
honest. And it it went for at least 5
00:37:09
years.
00:37:11
>> Wow. And and you you are doing it again.
00:37:14
Um, and we'll get into Brightly later in
00:37:16
the podcast.
00:37:17
>> I I had Anna Moore from um, Zuru on the
00:37:20
podcast, and I asked her why she went
00:37:22
from Zuru to Zeal, which is a
00:37:24
recruitment app that she's got. She
00:37:26
described Zuru as a mountain and said
00:37:27
there's more mountains that she wants to
00:37:28
climb.
00:37:29
>> Do you Does that resonate with you, that
00:37:31
sort of terminology?
00:37:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. There are
00:37:37
>> You're still quite young, eh? So, you
00:37:38
get this payout from on the big scheme
00:37:40
of a of a life. So, you get this pay out
00:37:42
and it' be easy to think, I'm just going
00:37:43
to, you know, kick my feet up and pot
00:37:46
around, but you've still got so much um
00:37:49
brain power and energy to put into
00:37:51
something.
00:37:51
>> Yeah. And you you want
00:37:57
there's no right or wrong answer, but
00:37:59
it's I
00:38:03
I didn't expect to be working on
00:38:04
Brightly when I sold Enable Me. I wasn't
00:38:07
sure what I was going to do. um that
00:38:10
sort of happened. But I I know that and
00:38:15
I think most people are like this. Yes,
00:38:17
there are other mountains that you want
00:38:18
to climb, but
00:38:22
you you how do I say it? You I I guess
00:38:25
to whom much is given, much is expected.
00:38:28
>> And I feel very blessed to be in this
00:38:31
position. And you kind of can have two
00:38:34
options in life, right? like you can
00:38:36
either build a longer table or a higher
00:38:38
fence.
00:38:39
>> And I love that. [snorts]
00:38:40
>> Uh yeah, and that that just kind of
00:38:42
talks to my values. It's I've been
00:38:46
lucky, fortunate, blessed, whatever you
00:38:48
want to call it. Um
00:38:51
and I think
00:38:54
it's it's part of a bigger picture. And
00:38:56
so it's I could stop, but I feel like
00:39:00
I've got more to give. Um, and one of
00:39:03
the benefits of when you are cashed up,
00:39:06
the second time round is so much more
00:39:08
enjoyable cuz that's half the problem
00:39:10
[laughter] for the first time is that it
00:39:12
and I'm not saying this for you, but for
00:39:14
me, money was really tight and I wanted
00:39:16
to um get more people and you're you're
00:39:20
trying to grow and then you're trying to
00:39:21
do the stuff over here. So, you don't
00:39:23
tend to pay yourself what you're worth.
00:39:24
All of the I don't even think I took a
00:39:26
salary for like seven years, you know,
00:39:27
like it was just crazy. everything I
00:39:29
earn was going trying to grow that
00:39:31
business. And
00:39:33
and so what what that tends to mean is
00:39:36
that you can't afford the talent that
00:39:37
you really want and so you have to do
00:39:40
more and more of it yourself. Um and you
00:39:44
eventually kind of get to your high
00:39:46
performing team, but it takes you well
00:39:48
for me it took me years to afford that
00:39:50
high performing team. Whereas now I can
00:39:54
kind of fasttrack some of those things
00:39:55
and I'm like, well, I want you and you
00:39:57
and you and um
00:39:59
>> I don't want to fly jet stuff.
00:40:01
[laughter]
00:40:02
>> I want TO OWN THE PLANE, BABY.
00:40:07
[snorts]
00:40:07
>> You're not PJ Rich though, are you?
00:40:09
Private jet. You're not there.
00:40:11
>> Well, I believe in leasing the private
00:40:13
jet.
00:40:13
>> Oh, unbelievable.
00:40:14
>> I don't [laughter] I am not yet leasing
00:40:16
a private jet, but I wouldn't own one.
00:40:18
>> Yeah. Um, go I love these entrepreneur
00:40:20
stories and the fact that you didn't pay
00:40:22
yourself at least what you're worth for
00:40:23
seven years cuz it's so easy to think of
00:40:26
the entrepreneur thing about someone has
00:40:27
a business idea, they set it up and uh,
00:40:29
you know, everything works amazingly
00:40:31
well and you know, but it's not real not
00:40:34
the reality I think for most
00:40:35
entrepreneurs.
00:40:36
>> No. Well, I think most Kiwi
00:40:38
entrepreneurs, right, because we often
00:40:40
start with on the smell of an oily rag
00:40:43
and there is sort of this belief that we
00:40:44
can do it and blah blah blah and all of
00:40:46
that's true, but there's a trade-off for
00:40:48
all of that. It's either you're you have
00:40:50
to do a whole lot more, so you
00:40:51
compromise other parts of your life
00:40:53
because you're doing that or um it just
00:40:56
takes you longer to get there.
00:40:58
>> Uh and I also think that Kiwis aren't
00:41:01
particularly good at scaling fast.
00:41:04
[clears throat]
00:41:05
>> Why is that? Is that a conservative
00:41:07
conservative thing or
00:41:10
>> I don't think we get advice.
00:41:11
>> Is it a fear thing?
00:41:14
>> That's probably an ignorance. It's
00:41:17
it's almost like we kind of can our the
00:41:20
Kiwi attitude can get you this far and
00:41:22
it can definitely get you started on
00:41:24
something which is great. Uh but then
00:41:27
you have to be able to invest to grow to
00:41:30
the next level and I don't think many of
00:41:32
us are confident or know how to do that.
00:41:34
And so we kind of keep bumbling along
00:41:36
for longer than what we should.
00:41:39
>> So enable me. Best and worst moments on
00:41:41
the job.
00:41:42
>> Oh.
00:41:44
Um,
00:41:45
>> and moments as in maybe it was periods
00:41:47
of time or days or weeks.
00:41:51
>> Oh gosh, I could I don't even know if I
00:41:53
could answer that. Um,
00:41:57
I think
00:42:00
when I sold it was a pretty good moment,
00:42:02
[laughter]
00:42:03
but that was hard.
00:42:04
>> Yeah.
00:42:05
>> And that was really hard. And um, but
00:42:09
that was And yeah, I was pleased with
00:42:12
how that played out. I was pleased who I
00:42:14
sold it to. Um,
00:42:17
>> so you sold it to AM or a division of
00:42:18
AM?
00:42:19
>> A subsidiary of AM. Yes. Um,
00:42:22
>> how long are those meetings going on for
00:42:24
it? Do they approach you or do you
00:42:25
approach them?
00:42:26
>> They approached me.
00:42:27
>> Yeah.
00:42:28
>> Uh, and it was in the middle of [snorts]
00:42:30
CO. Well, I had CO in fact and the
00:42:33
person [clears throat] who I was um
00:42:36
liazing with who was buying um he also
00:42:39
had CO. And one of the great things
00:42:40
about when you have CO is you just you
00:42:44
kind of there's no filter on on anything
00:42:46
you say. So you you just kind of cut to
00:42:48
the chase really really fast. And so
00:42:50
that did a whole lot of kind of dancing
00:42:52
did away with a whole lot of that. But
00:42:54
it was weird because at the same time we
00:42:56
had I think two other businesses try and
00:42:59
um kind of inquire as to whether we were
00:43:01
open to selling and I wasn't even
00:43:02
planning to sell then. I had a plan that
00:43:04
I'd sell 5 years after that.
00:43:06
>> Yeah. So um but that that was that was
00:43:10
hard to do. And I remember talking to my
00:43:12
um cuz I'd obviously never negotiated
00:43:15
something so significant. And I remember
00:43:17
talking to um my uncle who's pretty
00:43:21
amazing negotiator in Australia um and
00:43:25
he said and he's Australian, right? So
00:43:27
they're just brutal. And he said,
00:43:32
"Hannah,
00:43:34
let them see the whites of your eyes.
00:43:37
Be prepared to walk away from the deal
00:43:40
and remember this is what you've trained
00:43:42
for." And I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready."
00:43:45
And it was sort of like just the the
00:43:47
perfect words at the perfect time.
00:43:49
>> Um, and that helped me, I guess, kind of
00:43:53
navigate what was a a challenging
00:43:56
process, but I was really proud of how I
00:43:57
handled myself in that process. And, um,
00:44:01
yeah, I was.
00:44:02
>> Is it anything like like the movies
00:44:04
where someone writes a figure amount on
00:44:05
a folded bit of paper and slides it
00:44:07
across the table to you?
00:44:09
>> No. No.
00:44:10
>> Well, not for me. Um,
00:44:12
>> I've I've had Rod Drury on the podcast.
00:44:14
He sold a business before zero and it
00:44:16
was like that with some American dudes.
00:44:17
>> Yeah.
00:44:18
>> They wrote wrote the dollar amount on a
00:44:19
servette and folded it across the table
00:44:21
which seems very uh very Hollywood.
00:44:23
>> Yeah. Well, I I had an idea of what I
00:44:26
wanted and um yeah, I had I don't know
00:44:29
where I had been or what I was possibly
00:44:32
presenting on a panel and there were
00:44:34
some very successful people on this
00:44:36
panel and [clears throat] one of the one
00:44:39
of the gentlemen on there who had sold
00:44:41
businesses over and over again. He says
00:44:44
my someone and said when do you sell a
00:44:45
business and his learning was you sell a
00:44:49
business when someone wants it and so
00:44:51
that was this little nugget which again
00:44:54
I was planning to sell it 5 years and
00:44:55
then all these people wanted it and I'm
00:44:57
like okay well maybe maybe it's now
00:45:01
[sighs]
00:45:02
>> so the day the sale goes through what's
00:45:04
what's that like? So it's it's kind of
00:45:05
like I mean there's parallels with you
00:45:07
and your son like similar ages
00:45:09
[laughter]
00:45:10
>> they're both like babies that you raised
00:45:12
up. That is exactly what it felt like
00:45:14
and that's why there was kind of this
00:45:16
this beautiful arc in my mind that it
00:45:18
had kind of completed this whole circle.
00:45:20
Cam was leaving school and he was moving
00:45:21
on to his building apprenticeship and
00:45:24
this was the end of the era and I was
00:45:26
passing over this beautiful gift to
00:45:29
someone else to nurture going forward.
00:45:32
Um it did yeah the timing felt
00:45:35
poetically.
00:45:36
>> Was is there an element of sadness? No,
00:45:39
>> no, not sent no sort of sentimental
00:45:42
attachment.
00:45:43
>> Well, I I have strong feelings for the
00:45:46
people that are there. I loved working
00:45:48
with them. Um,
00:45:49
>> but no, my my that was my era. I'm into
00:45:53
my next era. And I felt that I honored
00:45:55
that era and I honored the people that I
00:45:57
worked with and I could do no more. And
00:46:01
I knew that and it was time to go. And I
00:46:06
so
00:46:07
no, I have I have fond memories. Um
00:46:11
it's it's strange seeing other people
00:46:15
promote the business. That's not me.
00:46:17
That that's a really strange feeling.
00:46:18
It's not good or bad. It's just
00:46:21
>> weird.
00:46:21
>> Yeah. Because you were sort of the the
00:46:22
front face of it for many years. ZB ads.
00:46:25
>> Yeah.
00:46:26
>> Everything. Interviews.
00:46:27
>> Yeah. But they've got great people doing
00:46:29
that. And um and my final management
00:46:33
team
00:46:34
>> [clears throat]
00:46:34
>> uh they are working with me. Excuse me.
00:46:36
[cough]
00:46:38
My final management team largely have
00:46:40
moved with me to my next business. So I
00:46:42
I know that I'm working with amazing
00:46:44
people.
00:46:45
>> But was it a strange feeling though when
00:46:47
you sell and you're still involved with
00:46:48
the company? There's that period where
00:46:50
you stay on. Um, is it a strange feeling
00:46:52
suddenly like waking up and going to
00:46:54
work and it's, you know, different level
00:46:56
of responsibility or it's not it's not
00:46:58
yours anymore?
00:46:59
>> Yeah, but it's I think you've got to see
00:47:02
things for what they are, not what
00:47:03
they're not. I mean, that was um yes, I
00:47:06
could say I don't have full control and
00:47:08
all of those things, but I guess I'm
00:47:11
more um
00:47:16
philosophical
00:47:17
>> and it I I don't like when people want
00:47:23
what they don't have or that they've
00:47:25
given away. I if I'm like, well, if you
00:47:27
wanted it, why did you give it away? you
00:47:29
know, like it's sort of and I but
00:47:30
there's a lot of the grief of leaving
00:47:34
happened
00:47:36
well before I finished working there,
00:47:39
but there was probably a year of grief
00:47:41
where you're just trying to get get the
00:47:44
right roles and kind of where you fit
00:47:46
in. But
00:47:47
>> um
00:47:47
>> yeah, was it like a sense of a loss of
00:47:49
identity in a way? Yeah, but I was happy
00:47:52
to lose the identity
00:47:54
>> because um I'd given a lot to that
00:47:58
identity and it actually wasn't me. It
00:48:00
was it was part of my identity, I guess,
00:48:02
to that point. But um I was ready for my
00:48:05
next era.
00:48:08
>> Another Taylor Swift reference there.
00:48:09
[laughter]
00:48:10
>> So many. We should like try and stack
00:48:12
them.
00:48:14
[laughter]
00:48:15
>> Um okay, be honest. Did you Did you buy
00:48:18
anything silly when you cashed out? Did
00:48:21
you go overboard? No.
00:48:22
>> Buy yourself those um rebop Reebok shoes
00:48:25
that you always wanted that define your
00:48:26
teenage years. [laughter]
00:48:28
>> That was my first purchase. Um
00:48:31
no, we bought a a farm a little farm up
00:48:36
at Mangafi. But no, not silly things
00:48:38
like that. No. Um
00:48:40
>> I suppose by by that point any little
00:48:42
little luxuries or things you wanted,
00:48:44
you probably already had.
00:48:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think my probably the one
00:48:50
trigger I remember my son saying what is
00:48:54
the point of having all this money if
00:48:58
you're not going I mean it's all
00:48:59
relative uh if you're not going to um
00:49:04
spoil yourself or treat yourself but but
00:49:06
I felt which I thought was a a valid
00:49:08
point. I mean, he obviously wanted me to
00:49:09
treat him, which I think was where he
00:49:11
was angling with that comment, but I
00:49:14
yeah, I I lived a good life already.
00:49:16
It's I didn't really want for anything.
00:49:18
Um, and I do think that if you if you
00:49:21
have money coming in, it just tends to
00:49:24
amplify whatever feeling you've got. Uh,
00:49:26
so if you're feeling content, you'll
00:49:27
continue to feel content, but if you're
00:49:29
feeling anxious or coveting things, then
00:49:32
it'll it won't fill a void for you. Um,
00:49:36
but my probably probably the biggest
00:49:38
treat to myself that was my Taylor Swift
00:49:42
wormly tickets cuz we got a corporate
00:49:44
box. [laughter]
00:49:46
>> Oh no, you left that bit out.
00:49:48
Unbelievable. Who's we? Who do you
00:49:51
>> My daughter and I.
00:49:51
>> Unreal. Oh, what an experience. What a
00:49:54
thing to be able to do.
00:49:55
>> It was incred. Like it really [laughter]
00:49:56
was incredible. Um,
00:49:58
>> what do you pay for a corporate box at
00:49:59
Wembley? I can't even remember because
00:50:02
we booked it so long ago and my PA
00:50:04
actually did it for me. The the weirdest
00:50:06
thing is that I wasn't sure if it was a
00:50:08
legit ticket and I paid all this money
00:50:10
for it. Like maybe it was
00:50:12
>> like a few thousand each.
00:50:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um and it's cuz they're not
00:50:19
legit tickets. And you remember with the
00:50:21
Taylor Swift, you couldn't like buy and
00:50:24
sell tickets. It had to go through that
00:50:26
whatever that website. But what I found
00:50:29
out about Wembley is all those corporate
00:50:32
boxes, they're actually owned by
00:50:34
hospitality companies and they own the
00:50:36
seats that give them the tickets to the
00:50:38
concert. So you're buying a ticket from
00:50:41
the hospitality company, not from Ticket
00:50:44
or whoever distributed her tickets, but
00:50:46
that I was sort of hoping that that was
00:50:48
the case. That's what they told me. But
00:50:49
it's not until you walk in and that
00:50:51
you're like, well, here's hoping these
00:50:53
tickets are legit.
00:50:55
But I didn't realize the extent of what
00:50:57
we had bought until we arrived. So that
00:50:58
was quite cool.
00:50:59
>> Oh my god, that's amazing. Yeah. Is it
00:51:01
um is it is it hard not to spoil your
00:51:03
kids? Obviously like the you and your
00:51:05
husband, there's a lifestyle that you
00:51:06
want to want to leave uh lead.
00:51:10
>> Yeah. I Well, you kind of you work out,
00:51:12
well, what's the
00:51:17
what is a good life for a kid? And I
00:51:19
don't think having everything you want
00:51:22
is necessarily a good thing. Um, and my
00:51:25
dad would be pretty strong on you,
00:51:27
you're spoiling, which is kind of you're
00:51:29
ruining your children if you did that.
00:51:31
>> But I mean, my kids want for nothing. I
00:51:33
mean, but I had a a much smaller
00:51:36
lifestyle. My parents were just
00:51:37
workingass parents and I never wanted
00:51:40
for anything then. So, it's it's
00:51:42
relative.
00:51:42
>> Yeah.
00:51:42
>> Um,
00:51:44
>> yeah, I think they've got a good life.
00:51:46
And you with your um accountant um
00:51:48
brain, you must have always had like a
00:51:50
figure in in in mind which in the back
00:51:52
of your mind at least that would be like
00:51:54
a good amount for a good retirement.
00:51:56
>> Um in terms of what you sold enable me
00:51:58
for, how many times more than that
00:52:00
figure was it?
00:52:02
>> Um
00:52:04
I was trying to think what the figure
00:52:05
was. Um maybe seven times more that.
00:52:10
>> Wow.
00:52:11
>> Yeah. What do you how much for the
00:52:13
average New Zealander like how much do
00:52:14
we need for retirement? Is it a million,
00:52:16
two million?
00:52:17
>> Well, they they I could tell you based
00:52:20
on the literature and things that I've
00:52:22
read that you normally need if you want
00:52:24
to live a comfortable lifestyle, that's
00:52:26
defined by what you're used to, right?
00:52:29
It's um but for most people, it's a
00:52:33
mortgage free home and you want about a
00:52:34
million dollars in the bank to live kind
00:52:36
of that comfortable lifestyle. Now, you
00:52:38
could live a whole lot smaller than
00:52:39
that. It's not that you couldn't, it's
00:52:41
just it would require you to change your
00:52:42
lifestyle. Uh, and for many the
00:52:46
definition of financial success is you
00:52:48
can maintain your lifestyle through
00:52:49
retirement. Um, but I've got or I had
00:52:54
clients that could survive on the
00:52:56
pension alone. I couldn't. I I spend too
00:52:59
much and I like cruises too much, you
00:53:01
know. So, and all that costs money, you
00:53:03
know, like when they when they do a um
00:53:06
the sort of studies on this is how much
00:53:08
you need to spend each week or this is
00:53:09
the average amount of spending. I'm
00:53:11
like,
00:53:12
how is that the average? That's not even
00:53:14
my reality. You know, they'd say maybe
00:53:16
you're spending like a $100 a week on
00:53:18
food. That's how they've come up with
00:53:20
the number that you're um needing for
00:53:22
retirement. I'm like, I can't even
00:53:24
remember when I spend $100 a week on
00:53:26
food.
00:53:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. Buy a buy a bottle of wine,
00:53:28
block of cheese, and it's 100 bucks.
00:53:31
>> Yeah. I remember at university I only
00:53:33
had $30 a week to spend on food. But
00:53:36
>> that's when I couldn't afford a jar, a
00:53:38
jam jar. I had to have jam in a tin.
00:53:41
>> Jam in a tin? Is it?
00:53:43
>> It was [laughter] a thing. I'm like,
00:53:44
what is this? It was so cheap. It was
00:53:45
great.
00:53:46
>> What was that like? Like waddies or oak
00:53:47
or something?
00:53:47
>> Yeah, I think it was oak.
00:53:48
>> Oak. That was a brand.
00:53:50
>> It was.
00:53:51
>> Yeah, [snorts] those were the days.
00:53:52
>> Why Why are Kiwis so weird talking about
00:53:54
money?
00:53:55
>> I feel like the conversation sort of
00:53:56
changing a bit, but it's always been
00:53:58
like a quite taboo. E.
00:54:00
>> Well, I'm not sure most Kiwis are that
00:54:02
successful with their money, so I guess
00:54:04
you don't really want to talk about it
00:54:06
if you're not successful. Um,
00:54:09
>> I I don't know. It just feels like we're
00:54:10
a little bit behind the times in that. I
00:54:13
mean, I'm I'm just a believer if if you
00:54:15
know like just be honest with yourself.
00:54:17
Do you think you're on track? If you're
00:54:19
not, get help. Like, but there I think
00:54:22
that money is linked to your self-esteem
00:54:24
and your self-worth, your general
00:54:27
well-being. It underpins relationships.
00:54:29
It's a status thing. And so, there's a
00:54:32
lot there. There's a lot of emotional
00:54:33
baggage attached to what you earn and
00:54:36
what your life looks like.
00:54:39
>> Does does money buy happiness?
00:54:42
>> I think money can help with happiness. I
00:54:45
it's certainly a lack of money can cause
00:54:47
an unhappiness,
00:54:49
>> but no, I think you've got to have you
00:54:51
got to have the basics right, which has
00:54:53
nothing to do with money,
00:54:55
>> you know, relationships.
00:54:57
>> Yeah, there'd be nothing worse say like
00:54:59
the stressing about money. Yeah. What
00:55:01
was what was your upbringing like? We as
00:55:03
I said, we're similar ages. I'm from
00:55:05
Palmerston North. We I grew I grew up
00:55:08
>> one of my worst fears I think is being
00:55:09
is being broke. And I think it's
00:55:11
probably stems back from a psychological
00:55:12
perspective for how I was raised.
00:55:14
>> You know, the the whole money doesn't
00:55:16
grow on trees sort of [laughter]
00:55:18
>> like it just always felt like there was
00:55:20
um there was there was a shortage or
00:55:22
less than what we needed. And I look
00:55:23
back now like we we had a microwave, we
00:55:25
had a a video, we shared bedrooms and it
00:55:27
was a small house, but I think we were
00:55:29
just very there was this massive sort of
00:55:30
middle class and I think we were
00:55:32
probably in there.
00:55:33
>> Yeah, I think we were also slapbang kind
00:55:35
of in the middle class. Um but I always
00:55:38
um
00:55:40
yeah, I thought we had a very com I
00:55:41
never felt like we went without. I never
00:55:44
I've looked back at my parents'
00:55:45
personality around money. Like my mom is
00:55:47
a really good saver
00:55:49
>> and my dad is just not a spender.
00:55:53
>> So
00:55:54
>> he's kind of a typical surfer that can
00:55:56
live off wheat books for a week and
00:56:00
[laughter] and a raspberry bun or
00:56:01
something. Yeah. So no, I never I think
00:56:05
some people's earliest relationships
00:56:07
with money come from their parents and
00:56:08
if that's not a healthy relationship or
00:56:10
if there's an undercurrent that can have
00:56:11
a huge impact in your own relationship
00:56:14
with money. If I was to describe mine,
00:56:16
it I just had a neutral. It was there
00:56:18
was there was always enough when we
00:56:20
needed and um we were happy to kind of
00:56:23
adjust as required.
00:56:25
>> Yeah.
00:56:27
>> So, enable me. You're completely removed
00:56:29
from that now. Um what do you hope the
00:56:31
legacy of that company that you've built
00:56:32
will be?
00:56:34
>> I hope that it goes on and it grows. Um
00:56:36
I hope that they continue to have the
00:56:39
tough conversations and the honest
00:56:41
conversations around money. Um, but
00:56:44
there's a system that I help built that
00:56:47
I know works and it's very effective.
00:56:49
So, they will do well
00:56:52
>> and I wish them well.
00:56:53
>> Yeah. Do you um
00:56:54
>> All too well.
00:56:55
>> Do you do [laughter]
00:56:57
There we go again.
00:56:59
>> I knew you would trouble when you walked
00:57:01
in. [laughter]
00:57:02
>> Um, do you do you hear people coming up
00:57:03
to you like in supermarkets or malls
00:57:05
saying, "Hey, I was an Enable Me
00:57:08
client." Yeah. Yeah. Well, many of my um
00:57:11
closest Enable Me clients I still am in
00:57:13
contact with or have become great
00:57:15
friends with. Um and many of them are
00:57:18
even coming to the opening of my new
00:57:19
business because they shared their life
00:57:21
with me and I want to share what's
00:57:23
happening in my life with them. But it's
00:57:24
a very intimate relationship. You're
00:57:27
you're seeing behind the curtain of a
00:57:29
couple if it's a couple. Um, you're
00:57:32
seeing some of their idiosyncrasies,
00:57:35
how they engage. Um, when one partner's
00:57:39
not pulling, doing what they're supposed
00:57:41
to, how they respond to that, they're
00:57:44
sharing that with you. And that is, um,
00:57:49
that I guess that's a it can be very
00:57:51
awkward, but it's a it's a great
00:57:53
privilege that they would be prepared to
00:57:55
do that. Um, so yeah, I I'm I'm grateful
00:57:59
that I had that and
00:58:01
>> have made some of my closest friends
00:58:02
through those relationships.
00:58:05
>> Yes. So you finished with Enable Me then
00:58:07
how much of a break before you have the
00:58:08
idea for Brightly which we'll get into
00:58:10
now.
00:58:11
>> Yeah. So I
00:58:14
[clears throat]
00:58:15
I sold Enable Me and this is the thing
00:58:16
when they you sell a business certainly
00:58:18
the type of business that I had so like
00:58:20
a service related business you have to
00:58:22
stay in the business for a couple of
00:58:23
years and they call that your earnout
00:58:25
period and you never really get to this
00:58:28
is the thing that kind of ripped my
00:58:30
nighty cuz I wanted that celebrity uh
00:58:34
this is amazing we've done it we've
00:58:36
crossed the finish line but there's
00:58:38
[snorts] just milestones that you have
00:58:40
to keep on hitting the whole way through
00:58:42
and by the end you're just like you are
00:58:44
crawling to the finish line much like
00:58:47
the marathon that [laughter]
00:58:49
uh
00:58:51
but I remember when we sorry when I
00:58:53
first sold it and I was working really
00:58:56
closely with um someone from the people
00:58:59
who purchased us and we s finally signed
00:59:02
off on everything and it was
00:59:05
>> I think it was Christmas Eve kind of a
00:59:07
few years ago and I went to bed
00:59:10
afterwards like it was done It was right
00:59:12
up till like 10:30 at night. It felt
00:59:14
maybe five lawyers on the call. It was
00:59:16
just like heavy. Um,
00:59:20
and that night I had so it was done. The
00:59:22
line was drawn. Everything was signed
00:59:25
off. It was done. Um, I still had my
00:59:28
earnout to do, but the agreement was
00:59:30
finally signed. And I
00:59:34
I had the best night's sleep of my life.
00:59:36
>> Actually, yeah. Yeah. And I thought,
00:59:37
well, I woke up the next day and I'm
00:59:39
like, um, everyone said, "How did you
00:59:42
sleep?" And I'm I slept great. And
00:59:43
that's sort of my feeling. I'm okay,
00:59:45
it's done. It's done. And I think that
00:59:48
process um someone who I worked really
00:59:51
closely with um from the purchaser Mark,
00:59:53
he made that process uh as good as it
00:59:56
could be
00:59:57
>> and I was really grateful to him for
00:59:59
that.
01:00:01
So in the earnout, so we do that sign it
01:00:04
off and then we're moving into the
01:00:05
earnout and I'm kind of no longer hold
01:00:07
the reigns at that point. Um so that
01:00:10
that was sort of weird. Uh but necessary
01:00:12
and to be expected, right? It's just
01:00:14
it's very similar to your kids getting
01:00:17
older, right? They move to the next
01:00:18
stage, they need you less. You've got to
01:00:20
consciously step back. Um and that's
01:00:23
sort of what the business was doing. And
01:00:25
and it helped that I could see that it
01:00:27
was uh going into safe hands. Um
01:00:31
uh but at that point, so I still had
01:00:33
another couple of years in the business.
01:00:35
Uh
01:00:36
and one of my clients came to see me, uh
01:00:40
Gerbin, and I had been working with her
01:00:43
for a few years, her and her partner,
01:00:45
and um she came to see me kind of from a
01:00:48
different perspective because her mom um
01:00:50
she believed needed to go into a rest
01:00:52
home. And she asked me to look at the
01:00:55
rest home contract. She was tossing up
01:00:57
between a few of them. um and
01:01:01
she wanted to know whether she could
01:01:02
afford it. But I could see she was under
01:01:04
kind of huge stress and I was trying to
01:01:06
understand what actually is happening
01:01:07
behind the scenes and there's sort of um
01:01:10
there's just a lot that she was working
01:01:12
through and I personally hadn't I hadn't
01:01:17
experienced really an aging parent at
01:01:20
that point. Like my grandparents were
01:01:21
still alive and my parents were still
01:01:24
young and and fit. Um,
01:01:28
so I didn't have any lived experience at
01:01:31
that point. Uh, but I read these
01:01:33
contracts and it's the first time I'd
01:01:35
seen these contracts and I'm pretty good
01:01:38
with property and law. Like that's sort
01:01:40
of my background and finance. Um, and I
01:01:42
looked at these contracts and I'm like,
01:01:44
sheesh, these are are these legit? And
01:01:49
anyone who's gone through the process of
01:01:51
buying into a retirement village or a
01:01:53
rest home knows that they are completely
01:01:55
legit. that's what the market has
01:01:56
accepted. And I read them and I just
01:01:58
thought these are these are a bit gross
01:02:01
actually. You know that and I'm thinking
01:02:03
how on earth can they be allowed to do
01:02:07
that?
01:02:09
And I had this feeling and it was the
01:02:14
same feeling I had when I decided am I
01:02:16
going to do the enable me thing which
01:02:19
was when I realized that the banks
01:02:21
charged three times what I was going to
01:02:23
pay back three times what I borrowed to
01:02:25
the bank. So I my first mortgage was
01:02:27
$350,000. I was going to pay a million
01:02:29
dollars back. And I was just like how is
01:02:31
that even legit? Like it was it was
01:02:34
weird. And I had that same feeling like
01:02:37
this. It felt like an injustice somehow.
01:02:41
I didn't know enough at that point, but
01:02:44
I started to pull on this little thread
01:02:46
and and I was I have said to others, you
01:02:50
know, I was ready to saddle up and ride
01:02:52
on out of this town and straight up to
01:02:53
mangify, you know, like I wasn't looking
01:02:55
for anything, but I pulled on this
01:02:58
thread and this thread became something
01:03:01
completely different. It's I thought it
01:03:03
was a property play. I thought there was
01:03:04
an injustice on that. And I still think
01:03:06
that there are terms within those
01:03:08
contracts that I'm like, come on, this
01:03:10
is this is not okay. [snorts]
01:03:12
>> But that actually is largely in response
01:03:16
to the fact that they can't deliver the
01:03:18
care to these people with the funding
01:03:21
you get from there isn't enough funding
01:03:23
from the government. So they run that
01:03:24
part of their business at a loss and
01:03:26
they make it all work commercially by
01:03:28
kind of overcharging
01:03:30
in my mind the property side of things.
01:03:33
And that's how the whole thing works.
01:03:35
And we need these players. Like if if
01:03:36
they're not the ones building these rest
01:03:38
home beds, who is going to build them?
01:03:39
Cuz the government certainly isn't.
01:03:41
>> So I'm sort of coming to terms with all
01:03:43
all of this. And I'm like, oh well, this
01:03:46
feels like if I'm going to try and get
01:03:47
the property thing sorted, I have to
01:03:50
first address the care problem.
01:03:53
And I'm like, [laughter]
01:03:56
I don't know if I want to. And you know,
01:03:59
I've got people around me. They're like,
01:04:01
you look, you can do it, Hannah. You can
01:04:02
do it. I I know what it's like to start
01:04:04
up a business. I I know like they could
01:04:06
say whatever and I'm like you're not
01:04:08
fooling me. I've done this. Um
01:04:12
but I took a minute and I wanted to try
01:04:15
and understand the problem more so I
01:04:18
could work out okay where it's the
01:04:19
solution to fix this to then determine
01:04:22
am I capable of building that solution
01:04:24
to then decide and do I want to so I I
01:04:27
wanted to invest enough to get to the
01:04:29
point of do I want to even do this
01:04:32
>> and
01:04:35
do you want me to tell you that process
01:04:37
or absolutely
01:04:38
>> so I spoke to different people and they
01:04:41
said look the this problem isn't unique
01:04:44
to New Zealand. So the the one we've got
01:04:47
an aging population and we don't have
01:04:49
enough rest home beds and we've got
01:04:52
these retirement villages which are
01:04:54
different to rest home. Rest homes are
01:04:55
when you have cuz I had to learn all of
01:04:57
this. I kind of piled them all together
01:04:59
and said you're a back pack of fat cats
01:05:02
and I'm not impressed. That was sort of
01:05:04
my initial judgment that that judgy
01:05:06
Hannah [laughter] was coming through
01:05:07
again. But as I looked deeper that I got
01:05:10
it wrong. I actually got it wrong. That
01:05:14
the these rest home beds need to be
01:05:15
built, but they have these nurses that
01:05:17
look after you when you're in a rest
01:05:19
home. So when you move into a rest home,
01:05:20
no one wants to be in a rest home, but
01:05:22
you actually don't realize that choice
01:05:23
is taken from you. If it's unsafe for
01:05:25
you to remain at home, then you will be
01:05:27
put in a rest home. The government
01:05:29
subsidize. They pay a lot of money to
01:05:31
that rest home care, to that care. So
01:05:33
the nurse round the clock nurse um
01:05:35
attention like 70 well it's not the
01:05:38
government the taxpayer is paying 70 to
01:05:41
80 grand a year for that person to be to
01:05:43
get that care but that and that might
01:05:46
cover the care just not really but let's
01:05:48
say it does normally they need the
01:05:50
family to put a little bit of money in
01:05:51
as well
01:05:53
but that just covers the care that
01:05:55
doesn't cover the fact that they there
01:05:57
are
01:05:58
there's food to pay you know there's the
01:06:00
cost of food for these people that
01:06:01
someone needs to pay for and at the
01:06:03
moment it's the rest home and it doesn't
01:06:05
cover the fact that their buildings need
01:06:06
to be maintained. So there's just not
01:06:09
enough money and so that's why they
01:06:12
what feels like kind of rape and
01:06:14
pillaging on these property agreements
01:06:16
because if they don't make this care
01:06:18
work then the whole thing crumbles.
01:06:21
So that's what I I came to realize and
01:06:25
and when I was talking to age concern
01:06:28
and trying to understand the problem,
01:06:30
they said, "Look, the problem's worse in
01:06:31
the regions and it's worse if you're a
01:06:34
not for-p profofit." You know, I'm
01:06:35
thinking these fat cats, but um in the
01:06:39
regions,
01:06:41
so I'm okay, well, if the problem's
01:06:42
worse in the regions, then I need to go
01:06:43
to a region to kind of understand what
01:06:45
is the state of this problem. And that's
01:06:46
when I took um
01:06:49
uh a
01:06:51
an acquaintance Dr. Minaj with me. I
01:06:54
didn't know him particularly well at
01:06:55
that point. And we went to Southland for
01:06:58
a couple of weeks to try and understand
01:07:00
what is the process of aging in this
01:07:01
country from 65 living not pre- frail,
01:07:05
living well through to something
01:07:07
happens, you end up in hospital, you go
01:07:09
home, you end up in hospital again, then
01:07:10
you're probably in a rest home and then
01:07:12
you're on a 18-month trajectory to
01:07:14
death. That's how grim as it is. And I'm
01:07:16
like, okay, that's the that's how it
01:07:18
works. We don't have enough hospital,
01:07:21
they call them hospital beds, but rest
01:07:22
home beds. So, what are we going to do?
01:07:24
Well, Health New Zealand can't needs to
01:07:27
make it harder to get into a rest home
01:07:29
if we have less beds, and they need to
01:07:31
encourage people to build more. And I'm
01:07:33
thinking, well, can't we change it the
01:07:35
other way? Can't we slow the demand for
01:07:37
these beds down? Like, can't cuz no one
01:07:40
actually wants to be in a rest home.
01:07:42
>> Yeah. So, ju just so we're clear. So
01:07:44
there's um retirement villages which we
01:07:46
see the ads on TV happy hour bowling
01:07:48
green and rest home is sort of where
01:07:51
they that you're sitting in a lazy boy
01:07:52
in front of Iale farm all day.
01:07:54
>> Yes.
01:07:55
>> Okay.
01:07:57
>> Essentially so your your retirement
01:07:59
village is independent living. It's um
01:08:02
there's sort of social connection.
01:08:04
Everyone owns their own unit. Um well
01:08:07
they kind of do. They
01:08:09
>> Yeah. at all. [laughter]
01:08:12
But they they're in charge of their own
01:08:13
lives. They can live and do whatever
01:08:15
they want. They're managing themselves.
01:08:16
They don't require any nurse or any care
01:08:20
support.
01:08:21
>> When you get to a point though, normally
01:08:23
in your 80s, if you're declining, you
01:08:26
are going to need support with your
01:08:27
daily activities. That's when you move
01:08:30
into a rest home that provides that
01:08:32
support. Uh so most of us don't even
01:08:36
whether you go into a retirement
01:08:37
village, that can actually be a really
01:08:38
positive thing for a lot of people. It's
01:08:40
just most Kiwis can't actually afford to
01:08:43
get into the retirement village. Um, and
01:08:46
you still need to be able to pay to get
01:08:49
into a rest home.
01:08:50
>> Mhm.
01:08:50
>> And so there there's a bit of kind of
01:08:52
money Mary go around with that. So I go
01:08:55
to Southland and I'm like, well,
01:08:59
they don't even have you can't even get
01:09:01
a specialist down there. Like it's it is
01:09:03
nuts. And so we start right at the
01:09:06
beginning and we're like, well, hold on.
01:09:08
No one wants to be in hospital. Well,
01:09:09
once you get in hospital, that's kind of
01:09:10
the start of the decline into a rest
01:09:12
home. So, isn't the objective to bend
01:09:15
the curve the other way and keep them
01:09:16
out of hospital makes sense?
01:09:18
Preventative care. Like, that's that's
01:09:20
really all that is. No, no one wants to
01:09:22
decline at that rate.
01:09:23
>> And so, that was kind of the first
01:09:24
observation. And then the next
01:09:26
observation is, well, if you're going to
01:09:27
try and prevent people who are aging
01:09:29
decline, that's actually a really
01:09:31
complex thing to do because their health
01:09:34
needs are so complex. Bearing in mind
01:09:37
I'm an accountant. I'm and a business
01:09:41
may maybe an entrepreneur. I think we
01:09:43
kind of use that term loosely. Um I know
01:09:47
how to grow a business. I know how to
01:09:48
build a high performing team. I know how
01:09:50
to create systems, how to develop
01:09:52
technology. I know nothing about health.
01:09:55
Nothing. And so I'm observing all of
01:09:57
this and I'm talking to all the
01:10:00
stakeholders and I'm feeling
01:10:01
uncomfortable
01:10:03
at the patch protection at just the
01:10:06
nonsense policies that are in place.
01:10:09
Like one of the things that ends people
01:10:11
up in hospital is they have a fall, you
01:10:13
know, they just accidentally fall. Uh
01:10:16
well, you can get full prevention. Um
01:10:19
you can access funding for fall
01:10:21
prevention through ACC. I'm like, "This
01:10:23
is amazing." As I'm learning this cuz
01:10:24
I'm learning it. And they're like, "Oh,
01:10:26
yeah, but to access it, you need to have
01:10:28
fallen." [laughter]
01:10:30
>> I'm like,
01:10:32
"What? Like that?
01:10:33
>> Where's the common sense?"
01:10:34
>> You and you're just like, "How have all
01:10:36
these how has it been allowed to become
01:10:39
like this?" But you then you kind of
01:10:42
you're you're gracious and you're like,
01:10:43
"Well, I can actually see how how it
01:10:44
is." And unless we actually try and do
01:10:47
something collectively, it just becomes
01:10:49
a political hot potato and it's not
01:10:51
really a big enough problem yet. So we
01:10:52
don't really need to do anything yet.
01:10:54
That's my observation. But within that
01:10:57
there are some amazing people working
01:11:00
really really hard and those are the
01:11:03
people that I want to I want to help and
01:11:07
cuz I I feel that they are taken
01:11:09
advantage by the system
01:11:11
>> and I hate it when people are taken
01:11:13
advantage of and I hate it when
01:11:16
vulnerable people are exploited or not
01:11:19
vulnerable generous people are exploited
01:11:23
like nurses caregivers They're not even
01:11:26
paid market salary. I'm like they are
01:11:29
literally looking after our
01:11:33
citizens and we don't even I I don't
01:11:36
know. There's just I'm just like this
01:11:38
this has got to change. And so I'm like
01:11:40
well if I'm going to change if I'm going
01:11:41
to come in I'm going to try and change
01:11:43
it all [laughter] because someone's got
01:11:45
to fight for these people.
01:11:47
>> Did did your did your husband at any
01:11:49
point go oh Hannah do we do we need to
01:11:51
do this?
01:11:53
Yeah, cuz to use the mountain analogy,
01:11:55
if enable me was like Mount Moongi, it's
01:11:57
it feels like this is Everest.
01:11:59
>> Yeah,
01:11:59
>> this is a bigger mountain.
01:12:01
>> I always wanted to climb Everest. Quite
01:12:02
literally, that was a thing. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:05
>> I'd want to get I'd be quite keen to go
01:12:06
to base camp.
01:12:07
>> I wanted to go to base camp as well.
01:12:08
>> To go beyond that, I don't know if I've
01:12:10
got any interest in that.
01:12:11
>> Well, it's pretty grim up the top. And I
01:12:13
thought, knowing me, I'll slip in the
01:12:14
place I wasn't supposed to. Oh. Um
01:12:17
>> Well, then you better get the fall
01:12:18
protection insurance.
01:12:19
>> Yeah, true. True. after I've [laughter]
01:12:20
fallen.
01:12:22
Um I think that this is a really hard
01:12:25
problem to solve
01:12:28
um because I I I sat with it um
01:12:30
objectively
01:12:32
and determine, you know, what what
01:12:34
actually needs to be done and how we're
01:12:36
going to do this um to then decide if I
01:12:38
want to do it. And I concluded
01:12:41
um
01:12:42
that I thought I could do it and
01:12:46
if not me, who? And if not now, when?
01:12:50
>> When? Yeah.
01:12:52
>> And
01:12:54
And I I don't know if it's because
01:12:57
I don't have anything to prove, you
01:12:58
know, like I'm comfortable. I could just
01:13:00
ride on out if I wanted to, but that
01:13:02
gives you a freedom. That really gives
01:13:04
you a freedom. It also allows you um
01:13:07
that ability uh to recruit really,
01:13:10
really good people to work with you and
01:13:12
to pay them what they're worth right
01:13:13
from the start. Because what happens
01:13:15
with startups for me, you don't really
01:13:17
pay people what they're worth to right
01:13:19
from the start because they're part of
01:13:21
kind of that journey and they get the
01:13:22
excitement of creating something new and
01:13:24
being able to influence that and that is
01:13:25
a value to a lot of people. Um, but with
01:13:29
that kind of sacrifice for me, I found
01:13:32
that really hard because I felt that
01:13:34
they were giving more to the cause than
01:13:37
what they were getting paid for. And
01:13:39
they were happy to do that, but it kind
01:13:41
of created an sort of an obligation in
01:13:43
my own mind that became quite heavy at
01:13:46
times that I felt that I owed more than
01:13:50
what I probably did. Uh, and that can
01:13:52
influence your thinking, your treatment,
01:13:54
your assessment of how they're
01:13:55
performing. that that becomes actually
01:13:58
something quite heavy to bear. And so I
01:14:01
I've freed my some of those learnings
01:14:03
I've managed to free myself from with
01:14:05
this next venture because they they are
01:14:07
the things that actually make it hard
01:14:09
>> for me. Not everyone's like that.
01:14:11
>> Would you now consider yourself an
01:14:12
accountant or a serial entrepreneur?
01:14:14
>> Well, I've never considered myself an
01:14:16
accountant. Um
01:14:18
I have an accounting qualification. I'm
01:14:20
I'm quick with numbers. I'm a quick
01:14:22
read. I understand law and finance and I
01:14:25
love that stuff. I mean, this is how I
01:14:27
know that maybe I am an accountant. I
01:14:30
love it when I balance something.
01:14:32
[laughter] That is just the coolest
01:14:34
feeling. And only an accountant will
01:14:36
understand that. Um, I don't think I'm a
01:14:39
serial entrepreneur. I think I'm a
01:14:40
problem solver.
01:14:42
>> I think I'm a pioneer. Um,
01:14:46
I think I can see what needs to be done
01:14:49
and I can assess the risk correctly and
01:14:52
I I see this as big. I'm not dismissive
01:14:55
of it, but I think I can do it and the
01:15:00
team around me, the clinical team is
01:15:03
incredible and my management team,
01:15:08
I trust them with my life because they
01:15:10
I've worked with them for many years.
01:15:13
And this is how our paths crossed. Um,
01:15:16
as part of Brightly, um, you've started
01:15:18
a new podcast called The Next Bit. What
01:15:20
is The Next Bit?
01:15:22
>> The Next Bit is a podcast aimed at
01:15:24
helping people age well, to be informed,
01:15:28
um, to
01:15:30
hear the things that no one talks about
01:15:32
honestly as it as it relates to aging
01:15:35
well. And I think when we think of
01:15:37
aging, whether you're the person who is
01:15:39
aging or the adult child of that person,
01:15:42
it feels pretty big. And my experience
01:15:46
with enable me, even retirement is big.
01:15:49
That's something we spend a lot of time
01:15:50
preparing families for. Um, if we can
01:15:54
just break it down into bits and let's
01:15:56
just focus on one bit at a time and
01:15:58
we're going to give you the next bit and
01:16:00
we're going to navigate this. And I
01:16:03
don't accept how we have supported
01:16:05
aging. I recognize how we've supporting
01:16:07
aging to this point, but I don't accept
01:16:10
that as being the way that it needs to
01:16:12
be or should be. And I'm keen to
01:16:14
reinvent that
01:16:16
>> and to take it to the world.
01:16:18
>> And the day before doing this podcast,
01:16:21
um, you had your first recording day and
01:16:23
it was a it was a joy to watch you work.
01:16:25
>> Uh, [laughter] this was your your first
01:16:26
experience at sort of hosting something.
01:16:29
>> Um, and I thought you did really really
01:16:30
well.
01:16:31
>> Thank you. It's been um fun watching the
01:16:33
way you approach things.
01:16:34
>> Yeah, I'm I'm quite quiet like in my
01:16:38
assessment of things. I'm not and I am
01:16:42
always trying to determine where
01:16:47
where I need to improve or what I'm good
01:16:49
at and what I'm not good at and where
01:16:51
other people can lift you.
01:16:55
>> This is going to be very exciting. the
01:16:56
next bit. I can't wait for it to be um
01:16:58
released into the wild and watch it
01:17:00
grow.
01:17:01
>> Yeah.
01:17:01
>> Um yeah, like when you think about um
01:17:04
Brightly and what you're trying to do,
01:17:05
like does it give you butterflies?
01:17:08
>> I feel and this I'm like do I even want
01:17:10
to say this cuz I'm like don't jinx it.
01:17:13
Um
01:17:14
I feel that
01:17:17
my professional life
01:17:21
um and maybe parts of my personal life
01:17:24
have brought me to this point
01:17:27
>> and this is what I have trained for and
01:17:31
I thought that it was enable me but
01:17:33
actually I think enable me was just the
01:17:35
testing ground for what I'm about to do
01:17:38
and and that you know
01:17:43
when
01:17:44
[sighs]
01:17:46
it's funny because when you're training
01:17:48
for something
01:17:49
actually um when I did the London
01:17:53
marathon with another cluster I mean
01:17:56
like there's a process with with
01:17:57
marathons like firstly when I did
01:18:00
started the New York I wasn't sure how
01:18:01
long it was going to take so I think I
01:18:03
said 5 and a half hours and so they put
01:18:06
you in your your pen your corral I was
01:18:09
literally with people who were wearing
01:18:11
tutus, like club feet. I'm like, "What
01:18:16
is this?" It was horrific. And you go
01:18:19
through the process of the run and you
01:18:21
and you kind of start with, "Okay,
01:18:22
you're feeling good." And then you're
01:18:24
like, "Oh, I'm starting to feel tired."
01:18:26
And then I'm like, "Oh, I'm feeling
01:18:27
really, really tired." And then you kind
01:18:29
of that next stage which you always hope
01:18:31
you never get to, which is, "Am I about
01:18:33
to soil myself?" Like, [laughter]
01:18:36
it is disgusting. And I'm pleased to say
01:18:38
I have never been there, but I was
01:18:40
always fearful of this when I did the um
01:18:44
London Marathon um and my husband did it
01:18:47
as well cuz the thing about New York
01:18:48
that I hated is that there was no one at
01:18:50
the end that could wait for you cuz
01:18:51
everyone they think everyone's going to
01:18:52
have a bomb or something so they usher
01:18:55
you through. Uh so I did the London and
01:18:57
it was hard but I was going for my four
01:18:59
and a half and I trained for it and I
01:19:01
was ready. The last thing my dad said to
01:19:03
me before I left to go to London was
01:19:05
look don't kill yourself Han. I'm okay.
01:19:07
Thanks, Dad. Like, [laughter] but I took
01:19:09
that on board and I um I was at my
01:19:13
halfway point and I was tracking to
01:19:16
because I want to do four and a half
01:19:17
hours and I think I'd done it for like 2
01:19:20
hours and 8 minutes or something like
01:19:21
that. So, I'm I'm actually in with a
01:19:23
shot. This is amazing, you know, kind of
01:19:25
all these things. And then I looked down
01:19:27
at my I don't even know if it was right,
01:19:28
but I looked down at my watch and it
01:19:29
said like my heart rate was like 180 or
01:19:31
something. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Oh, I
01:19:33
did promise my dad I wasn't going to
01:19:34
die, so I'm just going to just Yeah.
01:19:37
Anyway, I get I get to the end and it
01:19:39
was just a terrible race and I was like,
01:19:41
"Oh, I felt I just felt like a dick." I
01:19:43
was just like, "This I tried for
01:19:46
something. I really wanted it and I
01:19:47
didn't get it." And um Billy was at the
01:19:51
end. I don't know how he managed to get
01:19:52
there. Obviously, he had finished a
01:19:53
whole lot faster than me. And he grabbed
01:19:55
me and he gave me a hug. And I was
01:19:58
thinking to myself, "You're not going to
01:20:01
be able to say anything in this moment
01:20:03
that's going to make me feel better.
01:20:04
this is what I'm thinking.
01:20:06
>> And um and don't even bother trying.
01:20:08
That's what I'm feel like. I was kind of
01:20:10
angry and I was crying at that point.
01:20:12
And um
01:20:14
>> I said, I just feel like such a dick.
01:20:16
Like it was just such a terrible run and
01:20:18
I trained for and it didn't happen as I
01:20:20
needed to. And he said to me, he said,
01:20:23
"Han, you carried the boats." And and it
01:20:28
was like the perfect thing to say. And
01:20:30
it was based on some weird Navy Seal. I
01:20:33
don't know if you've heard heard of him.
01:20:34
>> David Gogggins.
01:20:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you you know when
01:20:37
they're training and
01:20:38
>> Yeah. Who's going to carry the boats?
01:20:40
>> Yeah. And you know that. So that's the
01:20:42
people they're rowing till they die cuz
01:20:44
I used to row and people stop rowing.
01:20:48
Not helpful. Like lay down sally in your
01:20:50
boat. And the people who are still
01:20:52
rowing are literally carrying the whole
01:20:54
boat.
01:20:55
>> And I'm like that's just the perfect
01:20:58
thing to say. I just carried the boat. I
01:21:00
didn't do what I wanted to do. I didn't
01:21:01
achieve in that situation what I wanted
01:21:03
to achieve, but I got it done.
01:21:05
>> And I think that strengthens me for
01:21:07
other things.
01:21:07
>> Yeah. And you got something done
01:21:09
regardless of your time. I say to people
01:21:11
that finish a marathon, you you've got
01:21:12
something done that 98% of the
01:21:14
population are never going to do.
01:21:15
>> I know, but you can't look at life like
01:21:18
that. You've got to look at it, but what
01:21:19
could I have done? Not I'm better than
01:21:22
them. [laughter]
01:21:24
>> But yes. But yeah,
01:21:25
>> you're still in a very, very special
01:21:27
group.
01:21:27
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:21:28
>> Yeah.
01:21:29
>> But we try.
01:21:29
>> Okay. So, you're a you're a solver,
01:21:31
you're a doer, you're a fixer. How good
01:21:33
are you at asking for help?
01:21:34
>> I'm great.
01:21:35
>> I am.
01:21:35
>> Yeah.
01:21:36
>> Yeah. Um, but I I want to first kind of
01:21:39
scope where the where the help is. I
01:21:41
think sometimes you can get the wrong
01:21:43
you you know you need something, but if
01:21:45
you ask the wrong person or if the
01:21:48
question is not framed correctly, you
01:21:50
don't actually get the right answer. So,
01:21:52
I spend time kind of reflecting and
01:21:55
thinking on that and Yeah. But I'm good
01:21:57
at asking for help.
01:21:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, from your background
01:22:00
it would be like you most people asking
01:22:01
their uncle for financial advice or for
01:22:03
stock market tips.
01:22:05
>> Yes, I can do all of those. What's
01:22:06
interesting with the cuz I'm not medical
01:22:08
and I do think that this is the um the
01:22:10
superpower of Brightly. So there's this
01:22:12
incredible clinical team, 10 or so
01:22:15
expert clinicians in older person care
01:22:18
and then there's an advisory group of
01:22:20
some of the best medical minds in the
01:22:22
country. you know, they are they're like
01:22:26
on one hand I'm like you're amazing. On
01:22:29
the other hand, they look at everything
01:22:31
from a clinical perspective and I'm a
01:22:33
consumer and I don't care about some of
01:22:36
the stuff that they care about. I like
01:22:39
as a um the daughter of someone of
01:22:42
parents who are aging, I want to know
01:22:44
particular things and that's been a
01:22:47
we've had some very robust conversations
01:22:50
where they are trying to present
01:22:51
something clinically and I'll be like I
01:22:53
just don't care. I don't care. What I
01:22:56
care about is this. Or similarly, they
01:22:58
say something and I don't even
01:22:59
understand it. I'm like, I don't even
01:23:01
know what you're saying to work out if
01:23:02
that's important. And I think we're
01:23:04
going to start to break down. Those are
01:23:05
barriers in an industry where these
01:23:07
amazing people are not actually getting
01:23:09
the results that they should because the
01:23:12
system, the way that we communicate is
01:23:15
is separate from what the consumer
01:23:17
needs. And so I've tried to build
01:23:19
brightly so that it's person centered.
01:23:22
Let's start with people and that's the
01:23:23
the the patients or the members that
01:23:25
we're working with, but it's also the
01:23:26
team, the nurses and the geriatricians
01:23:29
and all of those. Let's start with the
01:23:30
right people and let's design something
01:23:33
that the person wants. And there's this
01:23:37
concept and [laughter] this is slightly
01:23:40
um this is not meant to be egotistical
01:23:42
at all, but there's this concept of so
01:23:46
often when people start businesses, they
01:23:48
start something that's already there and
01:23:51
they try and make it better. And that's
01:23:53
fine. and the market knows what they
01:23:55
want and they are trying to create a
01:23:58
better version. And that's great. That's
01:24:00
how most businesses work. But there's
01:24:02
this other concept called the lighthouse
01:24:04
identity, which is when you are a new
01:24:06
concept, the market doesn't even know
01:24:08
what they want because they haven't
01:24:10
experienced it yet to know that that's
01:24:11
actually what they need. And because
01:24:13
you're you're instead of just a instead
01:24:16
of being a mirror and reflecting back to
01:24:18
the market what they think they want,
01:24:20
you're actually a lighthouse and you're
01:24:21
kind of projecting a light. this and the
01:24:24
best example of that is um Steve Jobes
01:24:28
with Apple products. Like who knew that
01:24:30
we need we couldn't live without these
01:24:32
Apple products and this is what I want
01:24:34
Brightly to be that every family needs
01:24:37
this and I'm going to prove to you that
01:24:39
you you will want this for your family
01:24:42
and I'm designing it so that you
01:24:43
genuinely believe that.
01:24:45
>> Yeah. Steve Jobs famously against focus
01:24:47
groups. He he said um you know people
01:24:50
can't describe what they want but he
01:24:53
can. And even way back Henry Ford with
01:24:54
the Model T Ford I think his quote is
01:24:56
something like if I asked consumers what
01:24:58
they wanted they'd say faster horses.
01:24:59
>> Exactly. Exactly. And that's that's what
01:25:02
we're pioneering here.
01:25:04
>> Well that's [snorts] really exciting and
01:25:05
I think that the the timing's never been
01:25:07
better. You know aging population.
01:25:09
>> Yeah. Around the world.
01:25:11
>> What about politics? Did you consider
01:25:12
politics?
01:25:14
>> I think I've got too many skeletons.
01:25:16
[laughter]
01:25:16
>> Have you? I don't believe it.
01:25:18
>> I [gasps]
01:25:19
know people well I won't say what people
01:25:22
have said but um I think I can be more
01:25:25
effective
01:25:27
uh for
01:25:29
whoever is in government like we want to
01:25:31
create change. I want New Zealand to be
01:25:34
the new like I want us to be progressive
01:25:36
and productive but there was an essence
01:25:40
to being a Kiwi maybe from 10 or 20
01:25:42
years ago. I don't know how or why we
01:25:44
have lost that, but I want to start to
01:25:46
bring that back. And that was when we
01:25:48
were brave and we were supportive of
01:25:50
people and you were proud to be a Kiwi.
01:25:53
Um, I think I can create that in the
01:25:57
wild rather than through policy setting.
01:26:02
>> I'm curious about these skeletons and
01:26:03
what you you [laughter] you
01:26:05
self-censored before. What what have
01:26:07
people said because you've you curious
01:26:08
about this cuz you've had detractice
01:26:10
your entire life. like when you left
01:26:11
school early, there was a school teacher
01:26:12
that said, "You're making a big
01:26:13
mistake."
01:26:14
>> Um, you got married early. There was the
01:26:17
the boss that um fired you after the bad
01:26:19
idea. Yeah.
01:26:20
>> It feels like um you've had this ability
01:26:22
to use negativity as fuel along the way.
01:26:25
>> It's definitely fuel. One of my favorite
01:26:26
sayings and I say it to my mom when when
01:26:28
I'm debriefing some disaster. I'm like,
01:26:31
they they will ru the day. That's that's
01:26:34
my saying. And um it's satisfying when
01:26:40
though it just it doesn't get to me
01:26:42
those comments. What people have said is
01:26:44
um politically uh that they think that I
01:26:48
should um I'm not even going to say it.
01:26:51
It's too [laughter] embarrassing.
01:26:54
No, no, no. [clears throat] Too
01:26:56
embarrassing. Um but yeah, we're coming
01:27:00
for you, so you better do a good job
01:27:01
whoever's running this country.
01:27:03
>> Yeah. Um, what is the biggest stuff up
01:27:05
you've ever made? Is there anything that
01:27:07
springs to mind?
01:27:10
>> Probably um
01:27:16
I I'd need to think about that. I've
01:27:18
I've made lots of mistakes, but I don't
01:27:21
>> tend to attribute it as a stuff up
01:27:24
because it's a learning for me. So, I
01:27:25
don't I'm not
01:27:28
regretting something. Oh, I wish I
01:27:30
hadn't done that. um pro probably my not
01:27:34
my stuffups but it's a learning that I
01:27:37
have made now I I used to find it hard
01:27:42
to give direct feedback to people when
01:27:45
it was negative of often because
01:27:49
they were working so hard and had
01:27:51
sacrificed other things in order to be
01:27:53
doing what they're doing
01:27:55
>> uh I think that that puts pressure on
01:27:59
other members of the team if you're
01:28:01
carrying
01:28:02
low performance or poor performance. It
01:28:04
certainly isn't fair to the high
01:28:06
performers.
01:28:07
Um, and one of my learnings is it
01:28:09
doesn't matter how hard you're rowing if
01:28:12
you're rowing in the wrong direction.
01:28:14
>> And so sometimes having the ability to
01:28:18
assess are you still on track is just as
01:28:20
important.
01:28:22
>> Yeah. How did you overcome that that
01:28:23
fear of difficult conversations? Uh you
01:28:26
you we sort of established before that
01:28:27
you you know your people people pleaser
01:28:29
tendency. So it definitely goes goes it
01:28:32
aligns with that.
01:28:33
>> Did you did how did Yeah. How did you
01:28:35
>> I actually had in Enable Me I bought on
01:28:38
um
01:28:40
someone into the CEO role. Um
01:28:45
his name was Jonno and
01:28:48
and I he's sort of like my antithesis
01:28:51
but we work very very well together. Um
01:28:54
but in his spare time he um is an
01:28:58
international referee. So he referees uh
01:29:01
net and also rugby.
01:29:04
And what that means is that he enjoys
01:29:08
conflict and making a decision very
01:29:11
quickly in the moment and calling people
01:29:14
out very quickly and [snorts] it comes
01:29:16
naturally to him. So you kind of you see
01:29:18
these photos of him and he's got, you
01:29:20
know, two rugby players up in his face
01:29:21
and he's giving one a red card or
01:29:23
whatever the case is. It it just doesn't
01:29:25
even bother him. And he comes to
01:29:28
so he's all about trying to create high
01:29:30
performance. And his observation to me
01:29:32
was, Hannah, you're carrying more of the
01:29:35
load than you should and that's
01:29:37
impacting our ability to grow and your
01:29:40
inability to tell people that they're
01:29:42
not performing as they should is putting
01:29:43
pressure on everyone else. So, he kind
01:29:44
of just he he called it like to my face.
01:29:47
>> And that was probably the the reckoning
01:29:50
that I needed.
01:29:51
>> Um, and I've just learned to get better
01:29:54
with that. It's a lot easier to do it
01:29:56
when the relationship starts that way,
01:29:58
you know, where it's you kind of lines
01:30:00
aren't crossed and sacrifices aren't
01:30:03
made that play out perversely um down
01:30:06
the track. It's a lot easier when it's a
01:30:07
clean slate. Definitely.
01:30:09
>> Do you do any tricks like the compliment
01:30:11
sandwich? like give give them some good
01:30:12
news then the bad news then [laughter]
01:30:15
>> um it's
01:30:16
>> or you just more direct? Uh well there
01:30:19
there's this concept um that they
01:30:22
studied at Harvard Business School and
01:30:25
it's called when you red team someone
01:30:27
and it's when you basically give them
01:30:29
feedback right between the eyes and you
01:30:31
kind of tell them things that they might
01:30:32
not have even thought of or considered
01:30:36
and
01:30:38
it can be quite confronting and it can
01:30:40
be quite jarring but it is one of the
01:30:41
most effective ways that you can
01:30:43
communicate with any team is just give
01:30:44
it to them straight. my I've had to
01:30:48
learn to do that and I normally need to
01:30:50
preface it with hey I need to give you
01:30:52
some feedback and then I'll go into it
01:30:55
not
01:30:56
>> the compliment sandwich is [snorts]
01:30:58
>> it it can be helpful at certain levels
01:31:00
of an organization or certain maturity
01:31:02
of people in the organization but if you
01:31:04
are in the trenches with someone or you
01:31:07
consider yourself a Navy Seal of which I
01:31:09
actually consider myself a Navy Seal
01:31:10
[laughter]
01:31:11
I've always thought I'd love to do that
01:31:12
training
01:31:14
>> well the hell week looks terrible It
01:31:16
does, but kind of amazing, right? It
01:31:18
would just be so cool to get through.
01:31:20
>> But when you're in the trenches with
01:31:22
someone,
01:31:23
>> I just think it's
01:31:25
>> you you make it harder for them to be
01:31:28
successful if you can't be honest with
01:31:31
them.
01:31:32
>> And that's that's always hard to get the
01:31:34
balance right. Even in relationships,
01:31:36
that can be hard. You know, that's your
01:31:37
your working relationship, but personal
01:31:39
relationships or with your kids, you
01:31:41
don't want to just nag all the time. And
01:31:44
so you yeah, you choose kind of when you
01:31:47
want to say something, but when you do
01:31:48
say something, you want it to you want
01:31:50
it to land.
01:31:52
>> When I had Sir Steve Hansen on the
01:31:53
podcast, he he's got a name for it. I
01:31:55
think he calls it the 20% conversations.
01:31:57
And he says to when he was in charge of
01:31:58
the All Blacks, say something like,
01:31:59
"Look, 80% of the conversations, eight
01:32:02
out of 10 conversations we have are
01:32:03
going to be positive. Two out of 10 are
01:32:04
going to be difficult, and we just need
01:32:06
to accept that
01:32:06
>> and we need to be okay with it." Yeah. I
01:32:08
don't think the Kiwi mentality is that
01:32:11
is wired to deliver that well or to
01:32:14
receive that as they should. I when I
01:32:16
think of the Australian mentality, I
01:32:19
think that they are definitely wired for
01:32:20
for that. Maybe because their living
01:32:22
conditions back in the day were a whole
01:32:24
lot more brutal, you know.
01:32:26
>> How happy are you on a scale of 1 to 10?
01:32:29
How happy are you today? And when have
01:32:30
you been your happiest?
01:32:32
>> Um, I'd probably say I'm nine. I'm
01:32:36
probably
01:32:36
>> That's a great number. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm
01:32:40
happiest when my kids are doing well.
01:32:44
Certainly when they're not getting in
01:32:45
trouble. Um I'm not happy when if my
01:32:49
son's getting in trouble. [laughter]
01:32:51
>> What sort of trouble does he get in?
01:32:52
>> We don't even want to talk about that.
01:32:55
Um but I love my son. Let Let me know.
01:32:59
Let me say that. We we have this this
01:33:01
farm as I mentioned up at Mangafi and
01:33:03
it's the most special place and it has
01:33:07
this essence to it which I always was
01:33:09
trying to create where you go there and
01:33:12
you just kind of shake off the cares of
01:33:14
the world and you just you go back to
01:33:16
what it once was where you can talk to
01:33:18
people and um so we've we've built this
01:33:21
kind of amazing outdoor kitchen beside
01:33:23
this lake and and it's incredible. So,
01:33:27
we've just had over Christmas, we've had
01:33:28
heaps of people over, but on that farm
01:33:31
we've kind of it's that it's my
01:33:33
homesteading era. So, um we've got two
01:33:36
coonies and three dogs and four
01:33:39
chickens. Um soon to have some cattle
01:33:42
and sheep. It's just a little farm. But,
01:33:45
um, that's where I'm probably my
01:33:48
happiest because people come and I feel
01:33:51
like you
01:33:53
you can kind of help them take a load
01:33:55
off. And
01:33:57
with Enable Me, I was trying to help my
01:34:00
clients take a financial load off. And
01:34:03
with Brightly, I'm wanting families to
01:34:06
have a load off through that process.
01:34:09
But I think just in life,
01:34:12
if I can be known for something, maybe
01:34:15
it's that I helped
01:34:17
wash your feet or take that load off.
01:34:20
And this this farm allows us to do that.
01:34:23
And and it is wonderful. And I feel that
01:34:26
it's um
01:34:29
I feel just so lucky that I'm that we
01:34:32
can be generous and gracious through
01:34:34
that. It's nice. Are you able to switch
01:34:37
off when you're out on the farm or are
01:34:38
you sort of like worring over like
01:34:40
there's a whole lot of tabs open in your
01:34:41
in your mind?
01:34:42
>> Yeah, I love I love that analogy. Um I
01:34:45
can definitely switch off, but I love
01:34:48
being able to go for long walks and
01:34:49
think. Uh that's one of the things I
01:34:51
love about running is that nothing kind
01:34:53
of allows you to think or forget like
01:34:56
running. Like just all the noise goes
01:34:58
away. Um
01:34:59
>> it's great processing time.
01:35:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. Often if I've got a problem,
01:35:04
I normally listen to music when I run
01:35:06
unless I have a problem I'm trying to
01:35:07
crack and then I won't and I'll just
01:35:09
think about that problem for the whole
01:35:11
run. And normally something shaken down
01:35:13
by the end. It's pretty cool.
01:35:16
>> We call that raw dogging nowadays
01:35:17
apparently.
01:35:18
>> Do we?
01:35:18
>> Yeah. If you if you run without music,
01:35:20
it's raw dogging.
01:35:21
>> Oh [laughter]
01:35:22
>> yeah. I used to do it without music. Now
01:35:25
I need the music.
01:35:26
>> Yeah.
01:35:26
>> And it's a thing that that whole Do you
01:35:28
listen to music
01:35:29
>> occasionally? Yeah. This morning I
01:35:31
didn't because I just I had some stuff
01:35:32
that I wanted to think about and I
01:35:34
wanted to think about this podcast today
01:35:35
and how I was going to structure it. Um
01:35:37
but usually I do but you do you become
01:35:40
sort of quite reliant on it.
01:35:41
>> That's the problem. Yeah. So when you
01:35:43
when I was um training for the coast and
01:35:45
the Iron Man and stuff that cuz I don't
01:35:48
think you back in the day I don't know
01:35:49
if it's the case now. I don't think you
01:35:51
were allowed to listen to music. So all
01:35:53
that training was without music.
01:35:55
>> But now cuz marathons are so kind of
01:35:57
long and boring I need something to get
01:35:58
me through. And when you kind of what
01:36:01
music you schedule at different parts of
01:36:02
the marathon is always interesting.
01:36:03
>> A playlist.
01:36:04
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:36:05
>> Um what would you say your best and
01:36:08
worst habits are?
01:36:09
>> Oh,
01:36:10
>> I can probably come up with best. Okay,
01:36:12
let's not worry about that. What would
01:36:13
your worst be? What would your worst
01:36:14
habits be?
01:36:17
>> Um what are some examples? I don't think
01:36:20
>> I don't know. I don't know. It's over.
01:36:22
>> I'm pretty I'm pretty wholesome. Like I
01:36:24
don't really have I don't think I've got
01:36:26
bad habits. Hey, maybe I don't pick up
01:36:28
my clothes from the bathroom that night
01:36:31
or the next day. [laughter]
01:36:33
>> And having got got to know you recently,
01:36:34
I know you're like a a can of Diet Coke
01:36:36
per day. It's a a small luxury you
01:36:39
>> that I allow myself
01:36:40
>> never deprive yourself of.
01:36:41
>> Yeah, I love that. And it but it didn't
01:36:42
work well for me cuz I remember when my
01:36:44
son um when we found a vape in his room,
01:36:47
whole different story. Um
01:36:49
>> and what age?
01:36:50
>> 16.
01:36:52
>> Oh yeah. and we'd gone in there looking
01:36:55
for um Billy had gone and looking for
01:36:58
some money, found a vape. He calls me.
01:37:01
This is just such a mother thing. He
01:37:02
goes, "I found a vape in Cam's room."
01:37:04
I'm like, "What?" I go I'm like, "Well,
01:37:06
it couldn't be Cams. He's not that
01:37:07
stupid." And he's like, "It will be
01:37:10
Cams." He is that stupid. And I'm pretty
01:37:13
sure where there's one, there's going to
01:37:14
be a whole lot more. And it's that he
01:37:16
channeled his inner 15year-old or
01:37:19
16-year-old self and then managed to
01:37:20
find a whole handful of them. And I'm
01:37:22
like, "Oh my gosh." And [snorts]
01:37:26
in any case, when I was saying to
01:37:28
Cameron, "Why are you vaping? This is
01:37:30
just I don't get it. You know, it's bad
01:37:31
for you. We like and his response was,
01:37:35
"Well, you drink Diet Coke and that's
01:37:36
not good for you." And [laughter] and I
01:37:39
had no response. I'm like, I'm thinking
01:37:41
to myself, "Wow, he probably has a
01:37:42
point." Anyway, so that's kind of the
01:37:45
vape Diet Coke um blend.
01:37:49
>> Um when was the last time you cried?
01:37:52
Ah.
01:37:54
Um,
01:37:56
but within the last month.
01:37:58
>> Yeah.
01:38:00
What was it about?
01:38:03
I think there was a positive and there
01:38:04
was a negative. Um,
01:38:08
>> like happy tears, sad tears.
01:38:10
>> Yeah. Happy tears and sad. Yeah, that's
01:38:12
right. Two different scenarios.
01:38:14
>> Yeah.
01:38:14
>> The um
01:38:17
Oh, actually when I was doing the
01:38:18
podcast yesterday, I cried. When I think
01:38:20
of my grandmother, um, who probably
01:38:23
inspired me to follow through with this,
01:38:25
I I get quite emotional with that.
01:38:27
>> Yeah.
01:38:27
>> Yeah. She's passed now.
01:38:30
>> What are you most afraid of,
01:38:36
[snorts]
01:38:37
>> apart from finding another vape?
01:38:39
[laughter] Honestly,
01:38:42
um [snorts] what I'm I'm most afraid of
01:38:49
there sort of layers to that like that
01:38:51
if I don't know how deep you want to go
01:38:53
with that, but um
01:38:55
>> probably being dishonest with myself
01:38:58
>> like in terms of
01:39:00
>> um just pretending
01:39:02
>> something or romanticizing something
01:39:04
that's not there.
01:39:06
>> Um
01:39:07
>> just ignoring a reality in a way.
01:39:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. probably that which I'm not
01:39:11
really afraid of. I just try and pride
01:39:13
myself in not doing that. Um
01:39:19
if I go deeper
01:39:22
um
01:39:27
whether
01:39:29
probably that goes more into the
01:39:30
spiritual if I go deeper. So I don't
01:39:32
know if you want that.
01:39:32
>> Oh yeah. No, let's go there.
01:39:33
>> Oh god. Um,
01:39:36
>> are you are you religious in any way or
01:39:38
are you are you atheist, agnostic?
01:39:40
>> No, I definitely believe in God.
01:39:41
Definitely believe in God and I believe
01:39:43
in Jesus. Um, and I go to church
01:39:48
>> and I [sighs and gasps]
01:39:50
speak with the tongues of angels.
01:39:52
[laughter]
01:39:52
>> What does that mean?
01:39:53
>> I it it's um I can speak in tongues or
01:39:56
have the Holy Spirit. So, it's quite a
01:39:58
big thing. So, my biggest fear is that
01:40:01
um
01:40:04
uh that I won't that I'll be found
01:40:07
wanting.
01:40:10
>> Oh, so you won't make it to heaven.
01:40:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. But that's sort of in a um
01:40:16
that would be my Yeah. Probably my
01:40:18
biggest fear. Not because I think I'm
01:40:19
going to hell. Um I just wonder if the
01:40:23
path to heaven's different than what
01:40:25
most people think. There's there's sort
01:40:27
of a graciousness that you want to
01:40:29
receive. Yeah.
01:40:31
>> Is is that what sort of guides you on a
01:40:33
day-to-day basis?
01:40:34
>> At a deep level. Yeah.
01:40:35
>> Yeah.
01:40:36
>> Yeah. At a soul level. And I always
01:40:38
think that, you know, when and sort of
01:40:40
back to Brightly, I I'm like I feel that
01:40:42
at a soul level, I'm meant to be doing
01:40:45
this. Um but at a soul level, I want my
01:40:49
kids to have a great a great life and to
01:40:52
have fulfillment. And I don't think it
01:40:53
comes from money necessarily, but it
01:40:56
comes from purpose.
01:40:58
>> Uh, and I want it to be said, you know,
01:40:59
I ran a good race and um, and I tried
01:41:04
hard. And there's that beautiful
01:41:06
actually in our office in Brightly,
01:41:07
we've got that Roosevelt saying, you
01:41:09
know, that if you're going to strive,
01:41:11
strive valiantly. And you're in the
01:41:13
arena and you're covered in blood,
01:41:14
sweat, and tears. And you may, but at
01:41:17
least you you gave it a good shot. And
01:41:19
that's what I want to be said of me.
01:41:21
Like I'm not saying that I've got all
01:41:22
the answers. I'm not saying that um
01:41:26
definitely don't have all the answers,
01:41:27
but I reckon I can um
01:41:31
yeah, I've trained for it.
01:41:34
>> Say it's um say it's your funeral. Um
01:41:37
Oh, yeah. And your your children and
01:41:40
your husband, they're standing around
01:41:41
the coffin. You're on the the Jet Star
01:41:43
flight to heaven. [laughter]
01:41:46
>> No, definitely be Emirates, I'd say. Um
01:41:48
yeah. What three words would you like
01:41:50
your family to use to describe you?
01:41:52
>> Oh,
01:41:54
um,
01:41:57
discerning.
01:42:00
>> Uh,
01:42:02
loving
01:42:04
and generous.
01:42:06
>> They're great words.
01:42:08
>> Yeah. Is that Is that how you're living
01:42:10
your life?
01:42:12
>> No one's ever said There's lots of words
01:42:14
that come up like repeatedly. No one's
01:42:15
ever said discerning before.
01:42:17
>> It's a great word. Yeah,
01:42:18
>> great word. Are you proud of yourself?
01:42:21
>> Yes.
01:42:23
>> Hannah McQueen, this has been a great
01:42:25
podcast.
01:42:26
>> How's it been for you? Are are you going
01:42:28
to have a vulnerability hangover driving
01:42:30
home like you've just shared?
01:42:32
>> Probably.
01:42:32
>> I've heard a lot of podcasts with you in
01:42:34
the last couple of weeks knowing that
01:42:35
this was coming up and um a lot of them
01:42:38
had have been questioning you about
01:42:39
money and about, you know, the
01:42:41
psychology of money and Kiwi's
01:42:43
relationships with money. that I don't
01:42:44
think you've ever been as open or as
01:42:46
honest in a podcast as what you've been
01:42:48
today.
01:42:48
>> No, [laughter] I'm already thinking,
01:42:51
will I regret this?
01:42:53
>> Oh well.
01:42:55
>> Well, it's been wonderful. I've really
01:42:56
enjoyed it. It's been really um nice to
01:42:59
get to know you the last couple of
01:43:00
months as a client, but um also to get
01:43:02
to know you on a deeper level as a
01:43:04
podcast guest.
01:43:04
>> Thank you.
01:43:05
>> You're a great New Zealander. Thank you.
