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Welcome to the Domavvey podcast. Great conversations with fascinating people. On this episode, I talked to Hannah
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McQueen, a powerhouse Kiwi entrepreneur. She built, then sold a company called Enable Me, and with it helped thousands
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of families get control of their finances. >> I've got nothing else to lose now. Like,
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I remember thinking, I am at the bottom. of being humiliated upon humiliation and
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pay withheld and kind of all these things which now if you went back you would sue
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well I won't >> sue the [ __ ] out of them >> yes [laughter] I don't know we allowed
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to say that on this podcast >> of course now she's starting all over again this time in elderly healthcare
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with a company called Brightly she's on a mission to completely rethink how we
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care for aging New Zealanders is genuinely the most unguarded I have ever heard Hannah McQueen before. And I
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hope you enjoy getting to know the real Hannah as much as I did. Hannah McQueen,
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welcome to my podcast. >> Hi. [laughter] >> I'm I can't believe you're nervous.
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>> I know. I'm slightly apprehensive. I'm not sure where you're going to go with
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this, but I'm pleased to be here. Thank you for having me. >> It's wonderful to be here. We've we've
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got to know you here at uh the Pod Lab Studios over the last couple of months because we've been helping you working
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on a project and uh it's been um a joy so far getting to see how you work. [laughter]
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You're you're a force. >> Yes, I think I am. I've been told that.
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>> Have you [laughter] Have you Yeah, you're you're a force, but yet um very
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very trusting in in other people like not a a force without being a control freak. as in you know you you you pay
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someone for their advice and you trust them if they know if if they know more than you in a different field you trust
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them and it's um I think that's quite a powerful thing. >> I think it's like self-awareness like
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you know when you're good at something and you know when someone is better than
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you and being okay with that makes life a whole lot easier. And I was even talking to my son. I said, "It would
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just be so much easier, Cam, if you just acknowledge the areas you need help in."
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[laughter] You know, like for example, I want to be fit, but I'm not naturally
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inclined to do anything. Or um I want to eat well, but I find it hard to do that.
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Like just knowing that about myself means I can get the right help, and then I trust that help. I'm not I'm
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definitely not the type of person that enlists someone the expert and then overrides their kind of recommendation.
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>> A lot of people I think struggle with that piece for some maybe it's an ego
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thing, maybe it's a pride thing, but a lot of people struggle to say I don't
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know >> really. >> I think so. >> Yeah. Oh well, how exhausting. [laughter]
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>> It's a lot easier just to acknowledge when you don't know. >> Anyway, it is great to have you here.
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Um, when people introduce you as the money lady, what's the big part of Hannah McQueen that they're missing?
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>> Oh, um, well, I guess that's back in the day that was my day job and
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something I took really seriously and something that I it was a craft for me and I wanted to be the best in the world
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at what I did. [laughter] Um, but that's just your day job, right? Like that's
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what you suit up for and then you've got a life outside of that. And um in my
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real life, I'm quite introspective and quite quiet. Um I have Yeah. I like I like to think and have
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the space to think. And I think when you're um when you have a persona, you're there. That's what you're engaged
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to do. So you deliver that. But I think the private Hannah McQueen is um still a force but [laughter]
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um just yeah just reserved. >> What's something you're deeply proud of
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that has nothing to do with work? >> Probably um my family >> um whether that's
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my relationship with my husband or my kids, my parents. I think it's funny cuz
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when you when you have success and and I have been fortunate enough to have kind
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of different layers of success in life and when I exit and enable me I think a lot of people objectively would say that
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was a very successful move uh that brings the measure often is money um but if you don't have kind of my
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reflection is that if you don't have a good relationship with friends with family.
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You can have all the money in the world and it you're empty. >> And I remember thinking or reading about
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Steve Jobes and I don't know if he was I don't know the person he was. He it
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feels like he openly um acknowledged that he wasn't a particularly nice person, but I it always just made me sad
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that he was potentially one of the most successful people in the world, yet just
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a life filled with dysfunction with those relationships that are so critical. >> It's hard though. I I've had Sir Peter
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Beck from Rocket Lab on the podcast and uh he had a quote that stuck with me saying um if you're going to achieve
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something huge in life, you can't do it on a 8 to 5 Monday to Friday schedule.
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>> So there are sacrifices that have to make. So to be like a Steve a Steve Jobs
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and create Apple um Yeah. I mean there's only so many hours in the day that you've got to choose how to spend them.
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>> Yeah, you do. And with those hours that you're not working, right? like you've
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got to be present and engaged and that's really hard to do like when you've kind
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of had a full day of work and you are just >> spent to then kind of switch into okay
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now it's time to be a mom or a partner or a daughter. >> Um but that's something I guess it's
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that that will be my life life's journey. >> Um >> these things things you're proud of. You
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said nothing about your marathon journey so far. I've got here I'm holding up for
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those [laughter] listening to it. >> He was certificate from the um the 50th
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Berlin Marathon last year. >> Um why are you embarrassed about this? So what have you done? You've done the
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New York Marathon, Berlin. >> Yes. Uh and the London. It's not that I'm embarrassed. [laughter]
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I am just a bit more discreet. And and [laughter] I think because I am yet to achieve the time that I want, I'm just
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keeping it on the down low. So, [laughter] um, God, >> you're so competitive, eh? So, your your
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your New York time was, um, 5:05. Your Berlin time, you shaved like 25 minutes off it.
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>> 4:40. Um, >> yeah, I was going for 4:30. So, it actually felt like a fail. [laughter]
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>> Did you? Oh, that's Hannah, that's terrible. Like, there's there's some
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stupid stat like one or two% of the world's population ever will run a marathon. So, the fact that you're even
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there doing it and anytime um puts you in this really elite little pointy group.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, I get it. But I I just I know what I want to achieve and so I
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when I have a goal I set out to achieve it and when I don't um I in fact the
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Berlin marathon I think the highlight for that mar marathon I mean I was pleased with my time 440 I was going for
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4:30 um but at the end I mean my body just pretty much shuts down at the end and I was lying in um a paddic somewhere
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when you kind of walk through to the paddic And I'm I don't think I'm going to be
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able to get back to the hotel. Like this is not cool. And I called my son who was
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17 and he was there. Um and I said, "Cam, I don't know where I am. [laughter]
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I think I'm in a paddic, but can you come and find me and can you take me back?" Cuz my husband was with our
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daughter. And he found me and he pretty much carried me back to the hotel. And that was
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probably the proudest part of that marathon for me cuz I thought he's actually got empathy. Who knew? That's
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so nice. And he came through. [gasps] Yeah. Cuz life's about coming through at
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the right times. And he came through for me. And so that I was just as proud of that moment as I was um finishing that
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wretched race. >> Finishing. Um you by the way you you you think of you you go through the
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Brandenburg Gates and then it finishes, but it's actually like another half kilometer. I am so sick of those stupid
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kind of like false finishes. And that is life, isn't it? It's like you >> you think you're there and then you're
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uhoh, no you're not. Here we go again. Yeah. Cuz the same as with New York when
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you run into Central Park and you're like ready to kind of um yeah, hang up your gloves. But when I did Well,
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something I probably was proud of was when I did the Coast to Coast. This is like many, many years ago. Um but it was
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a similar feeling. you bike into um Christ Church and you kind of think, okay, we're finally here, but there's
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another 20ks to get to SAR. So, that that feeling of you're there. No, you're
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not. Uh that's something that I think you've got to get used to in life.
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>> Oh, so you've got a history with insurance. I I didn't know you'd done
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the coast to coast. >> Yeah. Yep. I did. Well, it was so long ago. I kind of think your life often
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fits into two parts. There's what you did before kids and what you did after
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kids. and any I always think it's weird when people who have kids, you know,
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that are almost adults are referring to days before kids as sort of as if it was
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really close. That was another lifetime ago. In my other life, I did coast to coast. I trained for an Iron Man. I
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ended up doing a half iron man. Um, I don't think I did any of them particularly well, but I
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Yeah, I think the coast to coast probably was a moment for me that probably changed the trajectory of my
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life because um it was weird like I don't know how old I was, maybe 22 or 23. And um [snorts] you go away and you
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do it in a weekend and and then you come back to work on the Monday, right? And so everyone else has just had a normal
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weekend. And I remember walking into work, I think I was working at KPMG at that point and I just thought I have
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changed the direction of my life over the weekend and for you it was just other people walking around. It was just
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another another normal weekend and it's just interesting that sort of in that
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moment you can have that sliding doors experience and suddenly you're through
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to >> another dimension. >> Yeah. And and no one knows or sort of respects it or appreciates it either.
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[laughter] >> No. If you wear the coast to coast medal, they'll be like, "Oh, well."
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>> Well, I'm I'm not really I think people who wear the medal, I'm just like, "Put
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that medal away." Cuz that's what they do after the marathon. Like people are
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prancing around the city with their medals and I'm like, "Oh, is that necessary?" Like, [laughter] but for
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them it's it's part of their moment as they clink clack around the the city
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with their medals. But >> I I've sort of changed my perspective on that a little bit. Like the first time I
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did the the American ones in particular, the Americans wear it with pride and they'll wear it for days afterwards. And
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I thought it's a Kiwi thing to sort of fold it up and put it in your pocket. So
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I I feel like there's at least maybe a period of 24 hours after >> you can celebrate it. Yeah. Look, I
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don't judge. Well, maybe I do. I just I'm just like this is weird. Yeah.
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>> But I remember I think I've followed that coast to coast experience. How that
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started was I think it was like a Saturday afternoon back in the day, you know, like 20 odd years ago where I
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think there was sports on Saturday. Firstly, there was a TV that you would watch and there was a sports in the
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afternoon and um and it was always something dad would watch. It was always boring. But I saw this clip of the coast
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to coast. I think it was Steve Gurnie. Is that is that the same? >> Yeah. Yeah. Coast to coast legend.
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>> Yeah. Amazing. I saw this. I'm like that looks amazing. Like I'd never even kind
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of thought of this endurance event thing. I thought I think I'm just going to do that. And it was sort of as
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instant as that. But the problem is I didn't know how to run. I didn't own a
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bike and I'd never kayaked. And I remember um so it was sort of a standing start if you will and I just thought
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well I was looking at these people and I do this often maybe I am super judgmental. I'm like if they can do it
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I'm pretty sure I could. So I kind of assess my own ability initially with who
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I'm surrounded by. But that's when I called Barry McGee and I said um I don't
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know how to run but I need to be able to run 30ks or whatever. and he said [laughter]
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something like, "Come back to me when you can run 10ks or something like [laughter] that."
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>> Barry McGee, by the way, one of the early guests on my podcast, uh, bronze
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medalist at the, um, Olympic marathon in Rome in 1960. Incredible, incredible event.
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>> Great. >> He was amazing. So, he trained me for the running for that. And I actually,
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weird fact, um, we went to a YouTube concert in that Rome stadium and I had a minute where I'm like kind of saluting
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the legends of the past, Barry McGee, Peter Snell, you know, like these >> Yeah. Hellburg Liard.
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>> Incredible. Incredible. So that was quite um, >> yeah, just a little quiet moment. Um,
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but yeah, so I did that and then I took kayak lessons and what a drama that was and then had to ride a bike. I mean, I
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knew how to ride a bike, but I just hadn't ridden distance. And but the actual event was was kind of interesting
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because back in those days, you could you couldn't not that I actually would
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have done this, but I you couldn't do a one-day event. You had your first entry
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had to be a two-day event. Um, and so I get in and I didn't know there were a few things I
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didn't know how to do. And I had tried to learn. I just didn't know how to do
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them. I just could not change a tire on my bike for love or money. I just couldn't do it. They're so skinny and
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[laughter] it was annoying. And I couldn't flip my kayak back up. So, if I fell over, I couldn't flip. I couldn't
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roll. And I had tried I had coaching and I'm like, "This just isn't going to
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happen." And I [snorts] got to um the end of the first day. So, I think you you' done the 60k bike ride perhaps
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and maybe a run beforehand and then the 60k bike ride and then the mountain run.
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Ghost Pass. >> Yeah. Ghost Pass. And you're only supposed to maybe do like 10 or 12 river
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crossings. I think I did 22. Like I was just so confused as to where I was on this course. And I got to the end and my
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husband grabbed my bike and I had two flat like slow punctures on my tie and so he got it and he was able to change
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that for me before I started the next day. But I was just like imagine if I was on the course and I had these flat
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tires. I just wouldn't know what to do. And then the the next day you we're
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going in to do the kayak and um my dad and Billy, that's my husband, they push
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you off. So, you've done like a 25k. You're feeling so sick from the day
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before. Like, I just like what am I doing? And my mom's like, "What are you
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doing?" Like, "You should have been doing this isn't good for the a woman's
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body, [laughter] you know, like yap yap yap." And um so then you do this this
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25k bike ride and then you're up for this 70k kayak. And I thought, look, I'm
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not particularly fast, so I'm going to make up all my time in my transition.
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So, that's where I'll make up some time. And before that, I had made the
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conclusion that you're either fast or you're endurance. And I'm like, well, I'm definitely not
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fast, so I must be endurance. But I have since concluded you can be neither, which I possibly am. That
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>> Oh, come on. You've definitely got endurance. I think you're you're made of
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tough stuff where you >> Well, phys Yes, I can do like mental endurance and I guess I can do the odd
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sporting event, but when we got to the kayak because I was making my transition so fast. My dad, they pushed me off and
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and you've got your skirt on. I remember I can't flip or anything. And I'm like,
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you haven't given me my pedal. And so I yell out, I'm like, "Dad, my paddle."
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And this like the YAC at that point was traveling pretty fast. So I was moving fast and there were like some of these
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moments in life where you're like you you cannot afford to fumble this. I had
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one of those moments. Dad >> got my um paddle thing and he javelin through it
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to me and I was cuz I was like moving away like they were there and I was moving away and I'm like okay I've just
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got to catch this. and I caught it. Amazing. And then off I go. And um and I said to my parents, I said cuz they were
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meeting me at the other end. So that was the one of the first big transitions was
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he didn't give me the equipment I needed to do the job. I mean you can't do your
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job if you don't have the equipment. So that was one fumble. And then I said to
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them, it'll take me about 6 hours, but I actually did it in 4 and 1/2 hours. Like
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I kind of surprised everyone. And so they were they were saying these are the numbers that are coming in. And um my
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parents and and Billy were like, "Hold on, that's Hannah's number. Like she's
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earlier than thought than we expected." And so I got out of the kite and you
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just can't even move. Like you're just it's just oh it's grim. And now carry me
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up the road to transition to the bikes. And so then mum's in charge of the bike.
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Like that was her moment to shine was to get me on that bike. And she gets me on
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and she pushes me off but she had my helmet on back the front. Right. [laughter] So, I was I was just a mess.
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I was a hot mess. Um, but I got to the end and I remember uh trying to uncip myself before you run the 800 m along
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the beach and cuz I was on my bike and I'm I just can't even uncip myself. And
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so I'm saying to this this person, I'm like, can you just uncip me? I'm just
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lying on the ground with my bike on top of me. I'm can't I am so spent. And
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that's kind of how I finish my marathons, just I've left it all out there. It paints um it paints a good
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picture, especially with the support crew aspect, you know, your husband and your parents. Um
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>> yeah. So, let's go way back. What did you want to be when you grew up?
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>> I actually wanted to manage a fish and chip store. >> Oh, you're funny, [laughter] haven't
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you? >> Never too late. >> That was And then I moved on to I'm going to manage a McDonald's.
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>> Um and then I wanted to be a pharmacist and then I decided I hated science and
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then I'm like, okay, I'm going to go down the finance route. But my first job
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that I ever wanted was to run manage a fish and chip store because that was back in the day where on Friday night
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you go and get fish and chips from your local Chinese takeaway or whatever. And I just used to love how they wrapped the
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fish and chips, you know, they were really speedy like and then they pass you. I just thought that was just
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magical. >> Um but yeah, so >> even sometimes an old manual to evening
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standards for me which doesn't seem hygienic now. >> No, it [laughter] doesn't. But there was
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just something tasty. >> Yeah. Um, what was the most trouble you got in? Did
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>> I didn't really get in trouble. >> Yeah. Would you Would you describe
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yourself looking back as a nerd? >> Um, yeah. Uh, I think my my kids certainly
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would describe me as a nerd. [laughter] >> I feel like the the word's been
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reclaimed, right? >> Yeah. >> Like it can be viewed as a compliment.
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>> Yeah. I guess when I think of a nerd, they're not really socially they don't interact so much. Whereas I
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was very social. I just my friends and I maybe I'm refusing we were nerds you
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know like we wanted to do well we wanted to please um we all did sports we all did rep sports and
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>> we played musical instruments you know that and that was just the norm of the
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people that I was surrounded by which my son would definitely say well you just sound like a nerd but I didn't feel like
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a nerd then I always thought that there were other nerds that were nerdier [laughter] than me
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>> it's quite funny cuz you and you I'm slightly older than you but um and I
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went to an old boy school palmy boys high school and um if if you did the things you described, you'd be called a
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tryhard. And I look back now and I think, well, a tryhard's a wonderful thing. [laughter] Like, what's wrong
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with what's bad about trying hard? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I always think that a tryard is
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someone who kind of tries to suck up. That was it. And I never tried to suck up. It was always just me. M
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>> but the an observation was I think a friend told me once she'd describe me as
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a salmon where they always swim against the current you know or the current doesn't most people just drift along
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with the current. I'm >> not interested in drifting in any area of my life and I'm very comfortable
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swimming against it if I need to. >> And so I think yeah that just comes through.
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>> Yeah. And you you left school early, right? You left school a year early and
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went to So you went to university when you were 17. >> Yeah, I just turned 17 that month.
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>> What was that like? Was that lonely? >> Um, >> I'm just think at at that at that age
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like one year is a a massive length, you know, a massive time span. So did you did you feel like heaps younger than the
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other people in your >> No, I didn't. Cuz I always felt quite mature, >> right?
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>> Um I It's funny. Uh yeah, it was daunting. Um my first day, you know, I was a year
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younger, so I'd missed a whole year of learning and I wasn't particularly
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smart. I mean, I was smarter than average, but I wasn't like an amazing student. Um and so you're going to this
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new city and um cuz I was from Havlock North and so I was moving to Oakland and um
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>> Oh, did you leave home? >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So I guess it's all about your
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references, right? Like my mom came to New Zealand when she was 17 from Australia. So that it it felt like there
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was sort of a path that was already a little bit it it wasn't out of the ordinary. And mom I know that mom wanted
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me to get out of Hawks Bay quite quickly. I think she was seeing that I was becoming bored and kind of um she
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wanted to stretch me and kind of distract me with other things. And so she really encouraged me to go or I said
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I wanted to and she really encouraged it and supported that. Um but yeah, I remember my first day of university. I
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remember um meeting people for the first time and I'm still friends with those
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people cuz >> they become your lifeline. Yeah. >> And why accountancy?
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>> I thought um it it was just I thought I would run a business eventually and when you look at
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people CEOs who run businesses they kind of come from two backgrounds. either accounting trained or they are pretty
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magnificent salespeople and uh I wanted to run a business and I'm like well I'll
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get the I'll I'll kind of do the traditional path cuz of what tends to happen is you
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do your accountancy and then you become a CFO and then that's how kind of the
00:22:28
transition the CEO leaves and the CFO steps in I think and that's sort of a path and I'm like yeah I can see that
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path and I think I would like that. I didn't um what I didn't realize is that
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I um can be quite influential and persuasive. Uh so I had more of a a sales tendency
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than what my um qualification suggested because accountants generally aren't
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people people you know they uh they're boring and all of those things whereas I
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thought that I was quite uh in my accounting way quite verbaceious and um I remember when I was at um working for
00:23:09
one of the big four accounting firms um one of the partners said you'll ever going to be a partner here
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or something like that. And that was that was kind of for a lot of people that you do that you you start that
00:23:25
trajectory. And so that was quite um confronting. But I but at the same time I'm like thank you cuz I don't want to
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be but he's like you're just not suited to the profession. And um >> was he being mean?
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Um, >> was his delivery mean or was it a when you reflect on it now, >> if that's what most people's goal is and
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he's saying that to you, it feels like it could be crushing a lot of people's
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dreams. Not your dream, but a lot of other people's. >> Yeah. I think that there was a um
00:23:58
um I think he was needlessly cruel >> in the name of being honest. >> That's a Taylor Swift lyric.
00:24:07
>> It is all too well. Are [screaming] you a Swifty? I'm a Swifty, [laughter] but
00:24:11
I've only just become a Swifty. >> So Casually Cruel in the name of being
00:24:14
honest. All Too Well, the 10-minute version. I love I've got goosebumps. I can't believe it. It's the greatest
00:24:19
Taylor Swift song of all time. >> So good. So good. Well, this I don't
00:24:22
know if you know this about me. I went to see her um in Sydney and also at Wembley.
00:24:28
>> Oh, unbelievable. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Unbelievable. Oh, you know all too well.
00:24:34
>> I didn't even know it before someone got me a ticket. And you know how the
00:24:38
tickets came out a year ahead. Um they're like, "You need to listen to the
00:24:41
set list." And that's when I started to listen to it. I'm like, "Oh, she's
00:24:44
actually quite good." >> Oh, it's a phenomenal song. >> Yeah.
00:24:47
>> So, so, so you you do your degree. [laughter] That's amazing. I can't we connected
00:24:53
over that. That's wonderful. That's really wonderful. Um so, you do your
00:24:56
degree, then you get a masters in taxation, which sounds like the most tedious and boring thing ever.
00:25:00
>> Yeah. So, there was sort of a means to the end. I wanted to um pay the least
00:25:05
amount of tax possible [laughter] and I wanted to do that legitimately. And so I'm okay, I'm just going to learn
00:25:10
it. And for my accounting qualification, I needed to do another year before I could be signed off of university.
00:25:18
And so I I'm okay, I'm going to maximize what I get out of that. So I ended up
00:25:21
taking, I think, 18 months to do it. And um yeah, did a master of tax law. >> And there's this moment um in the Hannah
00:25:29
McQueen story that's almost mythical now. I've heard this I've heard you talk
00:25:31
about this story on so many podcasts um where you've got this job and you pitched the idea of what became enabled
00:25:38
me to your boss. >> Oh yeah. >> And um he fired you. Has that have you
00:25:42
added GST to that story? Is that embellished? Were you actually fired or did he just like shut the idea down?
00:25:48
>> No, no. Walked and cuz and remember I'm a people pleaser and I'm a nerd. Um so
00:25:55
that that was kind of like it was a pretty jarring experience. And people ask me, um, do you think about him or do
00:26:03
you want to say anything? And I'm like, I don't think about him. Well, maybe if
00:26:07
I'm asked a question, I think he was a fool. >> Um, I don't even know if he was
00:26:12
threatened or if he was just a fool, >> but so much of life is those random
00:26:18
things. And and it was surprising and cuz it was I was I was with a friend and we were talking about the idea of hey
00:26:25
instead of helping people get into mortgages why don't we help them get out of debt and um
00:26:33
and that's what we pitched to him and he's like but the thing that was annoying is that he said and I'm again
00:26:39
I'm a nerd and I'm logical. He's like that sounds like such a great idea. Can
00:26:42
you do me up the business plan? And so we tutored around and I gave that to him or we gave that to him. Um, and so we
00:26:49
just And then he's like, "Okay, well, um, that's not going to happen and you
00:26:53
can leave cuz you're going into competition." And we weren't. And I remember saying to
00:26:58
him, "If we were going into competition, why would we give you our business
00:27:03
plan?" Like, it was sort of illogical. But anyway, he um, excuse [clears throat] me, he marched us and I
00:27:10
remember I had my little box and I waddled out of the office with my stuff and I'm like, "How did this even
00:27:15
happen?" And like, you know, sometimes you can do stuff that's um you're
00:27:20
pushing a boundary, you know, like you know that you're pushing it and you're
00:27:24
waiting for someone to say kind of clip your ears. There was no pushing of any boundary. It was
00:27:34
>> But that people ask if I'm bitter and I'm like, why would I be bitter?
00:27:37
>> Yeah. But did it do anything to your self-esteem at the time? >> Um
00:27:42
>> I mean here here you are. You're reasonably young. You've got this idea.
00:27:45
you're you you're a people pleaser. You think you're doing the right thing and
00:27:47
it it backfires in the worst way imaginable. >> Well, I'm I don't remember my
00:27:54
self-esteem. I mean, my friend had been fired as well, so I we had each other. [laughter]
00:27:59
Um, but I do think there was an acknowledgment of what has happened, what has happened to my life or what
00:28:08
have I become for this to be the thing? and and that I've got nothing else to
00:28:14
lose now. Like I remember thinking I am at the bottom [laughter] of being humiliated upon humiliation and
00:28:23
pay withheld and kind of all these things which now if you went back you would sue
00:28:32
well I won't >> sue the [ __ ] out of them. [laughter] >> I don't know we allowed to say that on
00:28:37
this podcast >> of course. >> Yeah. you're just like this is just
00:28:40
unacceptable and but you got to choose your battles, right? And I'm a believer is you got to
00:28:47
face forward like let the the shadow will fall away and it does and you you just create such a gulf between you. Uh
00:28:54
but that was the catalyst to everything and from there I was talk my friend and I were like well should we actually give
00:29:01
it a go? and um we we tried to together but that sort of after a few weeks it didn't really work
00:29:09
and then that's when I decided that I would call the calculus department of the University of Oakland. And I'm like,
00:29:14
"Okay, it's sort of like, okay, game on, Hannah." You know, like this is enough
00:29:18
of this, whatever this stage is, enough. Um, let's do this. And that's when I
00:29:24
called them and I said, I'd like to you to work on a formula with me to pay mortgages off as fast as possible at the
00:29:29
lowest cost with maximum flexibility. And that, I guess, went all the way back to when I came to university early. Um,
00:29:39
that was the department that I had my first courses in was in the mathematics department. And so it was yeah it was a
00:29:47
yeah I it was just a moment I guess. >> So this is like two decades ago now. Do
00:29:52
you think um innovation like what you and your friend showed now is would still be punished in some traditional
00:29:58
workplaces or do you think it would be sort of flawed? You do do you? >> Yes.
00:30:01
>> So nothing's changed. Oh, I think lots of things have changed, but I think that
00:30:05
that you still when you're dealing with um insecure people or people who are
00:30:11
wanting to patch protect I mean and on one hand I guess the graciousness is well if I had nothing else to offer I'd
00:30:19
patch protect as well you know like but I see that with what I'm doing now when
00:30:23
I go into the health care industry I'm >> I'm just seeing worse versions or a whole lot more
00:30:32
versions of that character from back then. The difference is I know how to navigate those people now
00:30:39
>> and I'm pretty quick on my feet. >> Do you think about that? You call him
00:30:41
that character back then. Do you think about him very often? >> No. >> No. What do you did you think about him
00:30:46
at all like when there were like um important or successful milestones with enable me [laughter]
00:30:52
>> and the opportunity that he missed? No. >> No. I have with some people I've felt
00:30:55
that but not with that particular person. So um yeah 2007 at the age of 27 that's when you founded enable me um if
00:31:04
someone asked you back then when you saw yourself and the company 18 years later
00:31:08
um what would your answer have been? >> Where I am >> really I was planning to build um and at some
00:31:16
point I knew I would exit and I knew that there would be people who could help take the business to the next
00:31:23
level. I wasn't sure if I wanted at that time in 2007 whether I wanted to be part
00:31:30
of that growth or whether there was again a a kind of move to the side but um yeah it's all kind of part of a plan.
00:31:39
>> So when it ended um you you sold for a a great sum of money and how many staff
00:31:43
how many staff at Enable Me at the end? >> I don't know at the end >> like 100
00:31:47
>> close to 100. Yeah. Um I think the last time we counted the staff um was in the
00:31:53
middle of CO and I think we had 99 or 100. Yeah. >> And we sold just after CO.
00:31:58
>> That must be incredibly gratifying like knowing that you've created jobs for
00:32:01
that many people. >> That's huge, right? >> Yeah. It's satisfying. Um I guess the
00:32:07
flip side in CO was because there was so much uncertainty and life is about being
00:32:13
able to navigate the uncertainty. Um but you know that's 100 families that are
00:32:18
relying on you to make sure the business is a success. >> I remember going to the um talking to
00:32:24
the banks and co and whether obviously I'd followed my own advice so I was mortgage free. [laughter] Um but going
00:32:32
back to the bank to say okay well we might need to get a you know a mortgage if if needed to fund
00:32:38
>> these families that you're proud of to be part of your team and you you do see
00:32:42
them as an extension of your own family. Um, but it didn't get to that. But the thought that it could was
00:32:52
confronting. >> What were the hardest lessons about being an entrepreneur earlier in the
00:32:57
piece? What were those early years like? Well, I think that I was I think I just might live in my own
00:33:05
little bubble, you know, like someone someone had written or had said something derogatory of me
00:33:15
and I remember this guy that I work with, Hamish, who I just he's such a great guy and I'm I can't believe that
00:33:22
person has said that about me and he said, "There are lots of people who don't like you, Hannah. we just don't
00:33:29
tell you about it. [laughter] And I was like, really? How come they don't like me? Uh, yeah. So, I
00:33:39
I'm okay. I'm okay with who I am. And I try and be um I hold myself to a high
00:33:47
count. But in my mind, I don't know what people hear in their minds, but in my
00:33:51
mind, I have quite an encouraging voice. You know, it's a you've got this hand or
00:33:55
we can do this hand. Um there's never a um yeah I don't I don't have a negative
00:34:03
voice. I don't know if >> your internal voice. >> My internal voice. Yeah.
00:34:07
>> So that's reassuring. >> That's brilliant. >> Yeah.
00:34:09
>> But how long was it cuz um JJ and I have just started this business called Pod
00:34:13
Lab in the last year or so. >> We're still in this what we call the sweat equity phase.
00:34:18
>> Yeah. >> Um how long were you how long were you in the trenches for? I did hear stories
00:34:22
early on about you like going to Wellington for meetings and you had your your son on your hip. Maybe this was
00:34:27
during the global financial crisis. >> Well, we started just when the so 2007 I
00:34:32
found out that I was pregnant 3 months later. Like what a cluster. Uh and then it was 2008, the global financial
00:34:38
crisis. And what the that financial crisis said to me was what the beauty of the financial crisis is it gave everyone
00:34:46
permission to acknowledge that they weren't that good with money. They had always not been good with money. It just
00:34:52
gave them permission to be honest about it. So I thought that was kind of an interesting that kind of when there is
00:34:57
general consensus people are prepared to give ground I guess. But yeah, so that was pretty intense that period like the
00:35:07
sweat equity that probably gives me um makes me feel uncomfortable for you if if it was like my sweat equity
00:35:16
[laughter] because you're working I mean I had my son and I didn't I wanted him
00:35:20
to be with me and we had an office in Wellington and um I'd go down every week
00:35:25
and we were so we just had no money so I had to excuse me for those I had to fly
00:35:30
Jet uh [laughter] with my son. Anyone who knows me, I'm not I'm that isn't my
00:35:36
doesn't necessarily align with me. Um >> I'm I'm the same, but I'm also in two
00:35:41
minds about Jet Star cuz I know that they're important cuz without them, New
00:35:44
Zealand doesn't have a competitor. >> Yes. >> But I don't want to fly, but I'm pleased
00:35:47
they're there. >> Absolutely. And so anyway, that's all I could afford. Uh so I flew them with Cam
00:35:53
on my lap and then I couldn't even afford a taxi at the other end. So, we'd
00:35:57
catch a bus and I did that for a year, maybe even two years. Um, >> and again, my mom always believed that I
00:36:06
could do it. She was an incredible support during that time. Um, and I do think if the people you love most or
00:36:13
respect most are encouraging you, that I mean, that's probably one of the most
00:36:17
powerful medicines you can ever be given. >> Well, you must have been confident it
00:36:20
was going to work or you know what I mean? Or do do you look you look back in on that time and you um enjoy it
00:36:28
>> that time? >> Yeah. A lot a lot of people say these you when you're going through the
00:36:31
struggle of starting up a new business, people go you'll look back and you know
00:36:35
think fondly of these of these times. >> I [laughter] would say they're lying to
00:36:39
your face. >> Oh, good. I'm so pleased you said that. >> No. Um [clears throat] no. And that's
00:36:45
interesting. When I moved to what I'm doing now, I had to think to myself cuz
00:36:49
I I am I like to think I'm brutally honest with myself, but it was a moment with my internal voice. Do I have it in
00:36:58
me to do this again? Because it was so taxing and so grueling and I probably think I've got um PTSD from it to be
00:37:08
honest. And it it went for at least 5 years. >> Wow. And and you you are doing it again.
00:37:14
Um, and we'll get into Brightly later in the podcast. >> I I had Anna Moore from um, Zuru on the
00:37:20
podcast, and I asked her why she went from Zuru to Zeal, which is a recruitment app that she's got. She
00:37:26
described Zuru as a mountain and said there's more mountains that she wants to
00:37:28
climb. >> Do you Does that resonate with you, that sort of terminology? >> Yeah. Yeah. There are
00:37:37
>> You're still quite young, eh? So, you get this payout from on the big scheme
00:37:40
of a of a life. So, you get this pay out and it' be easy to think, I'm just going
00:37:43
to, you know, kick my feet up and pot around, but you've still got so much um
00:37:49
brain power and energy to put into something. >> Yeah. And you you want there's no right or wrong answer, but
00:37:59
it's I I didn't expect to be working on Brightly when I sold Enable Me. I wasn't
00:38:07
sure what I was going to do. um that sort of happened. But I I know that and I think most people are like this. Yes,
00:38:17
there are other mountains that you want to climb, but you you how do I say it? You I I guess
00:38:25
to whom much is given, much is expected. >> And I feel very blessed to be in this
00:38:31
position. And you kind of can have two options in life, right? like you can either build a longer table or a higher
00:38:38
fence. >> And I love that. [snorts] >> Uh yeah, and that that just kind of
00:38:42
talks to my values. It's I've been lucky, fortunate, blessed, whatever you
00:38:48
want to call it. Um and I think it's it's part of a bigger picture. And so it's I could stop, but I feel like
00:39:00
I've got more to give. Um, and one of the benefits of when you are cashed up,
00:39:06
the second time round is so much more enjoyable cuz that's half the problem [laughter] for the first time is that it
00:39:12
and I'm not saying this for you, but for me, money was really tight and I wanted
00:39:16
to um get more people and you're you're trying to grow and then you're trying to
00:39:21
do the stuff over here. So, you don't tend to pay yourself what you're worth.
00:39:24
All of the I don't even think I took a salary for like seven years, you know,
00:39:27
like it was just crazy. everything I earn was going trying to grow that business. And
00:39:33
and so what what that tends to mean is that you can't afford the talent that
00:39:37
you really want and so you have to do more and more of it yourself. Um and you eventually kind of get to your high
00:39:46
performing team, but it takes you well for me it took me years to afford that high performing team. Whereas now I can
00:39:54
kind of fasttrack some of those things and I'm like, well, I want you and you
00:39:57
and you and um >> I don't want to fly jet stuff. [laughter] >> I want TO OWN THE PLANE, BABY.
00:40:07
[snorts] >> You're not PJ Rich though, are you? Private jet. You're not there.
00:40:11
>> Well, I believe in leasing the private jet. >> Oh, unbelievable. >> I don't [laughter] I am not yet leasing
00:40:16
a private jet, but I wouldn't own one. >> Yeah. Um, go I love these entrepreneur
00:40:20
stories and the fact that you didn't pay yourself at least what you're worth for
00:40:23
seven years cuz it's so easy to think of the entrepreneur thing about someone has
00:40:27
a business idea, they set it up and uh, you know, everything works amazingly well and you know, but it's not real not
00:40:34
the reality I think for most entrepreneurs. >> No. Well, I think most Kiwi
00:40:38
entrepreneurs, right, because we often start with on the smell of an oily rag and there is sort of this belief that we
00:40:44
can do it and blah blah blah and all of that's true, but there's a trade-off for
00:40:48
all of that. It's either you're you have to do a whole lot more, so you compromise other parts of your life
00:40:53
because you're doing that or um it just takes you longer to get there. >> Uh and I also think that Kiwis aren't
00:41:01
particularly good at scaling fast. [clears throat] >> Why is that? Is that a conservative
00:41:07
conservative thing or >> I don't think we get advice. >> Is it a fear thing?
00:41:14
>> That's probably an ignorance. It's it's almost like we kind of can our the
00:41:20
Kiwi attitude can get you this far and it can definitely get you started on something which is great. Uh but then
00:41:27
you have to be able to invest to grow to the next level and I don't think many of
00:41:32
us are confident or know how to do that. And so we kind of keep bumbling along for longer than what we should.
00:41:39
>> So enable me. Best and worst moments on the job. >> Oh. Um, >> and moments as in maybe it was periods
00:41:47
of time or days or weeks. >> Oh gosh, I could I don't even know if I could answer that. Um,
00:41:57
I think when I sold it was a pretty good moment, [laughter] but that was hard. >> Yeah.
00:42:05
>> And that was really hard. And um, but that was And yeah, I was pleased with
00:42:12
how that played out. I was pleased who I sold it to. Um, >> so you sold it to AM or a division of
00:42:18
AM? >> A subsidiary of AM. Yes. Um, >> how long are those meetings going on for
00:42:24
it? Do they approach you or do you approach them? >> They approached me. >> Yeah.
00:42:28
>> Uh, and it was in the middle of [snorts] CO. Well, I had CO in fact and the
00:42:33
person [clears throat] who I was um liazing with who was buying um he also had CO. And one of the great things
00:42:40
about when you have CO is you just you kind of there's no filter on on anything
00:42:46
you say. So you you just kind of cut to the chase really really fast. And so that did a whole lot of kind of dancing
00:42:52
did away with a whole lot of that. But it was weird because at the same time we had I think two other businesses try and
00:42:59
um kind of inquire as to whether we were open to selling and I wasn't even planning to sell then. I had a plan that
00:43:04
I'd sell 5 years after that. >> Yeah. So um but that that was that was
00:43:10
hard to do. And I remember talking to my um cuz I'd obviously never negotiated
00:43:15
something so significant. And I remember talking to um my uncle who's pretty
00:43:21
amazing negotiator in Australia um and he said and he's Australian, right? So
00:43:27
they're just brutal. And he said, "Hannah, let them see the whites of your eyes.
00:43:37
Be prepared to walk away from the deal and remember this is what you've trained
00:43:42
for." And I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready." And it was sort of like just the the
00:43:47
perfect words at the perfect time. >> Um, and that helped me, I guess, kind of
00:43:53
navigate what was a a challenging process, but I was really proud of how I handled myself in that process. And, um,
00:44:01
yeah, I was. >> Is it anything like like the movies where someone writes a figure amount on
00:44:05
a folded bit of paper and slides it across the table to you? >> No. No. >> Well, not for me. Um,
00:44:12
>> I've I've had Rod Drury on the podcast. He sold a business before zero and it
00:44:16
was like that with some American dudes. >> Yeah. >> They wrote wrote the dollar amount on a
00:44:19
servette and folded it across the table which seems very uh very Hollywood. >> Yeah. Well, I I had an idea of what I
00:44:26
wanted and um yeah, I had I don't know where I had been or what I was possibly
00:44:32
presenting on a panel and there were some very successful people on this panel and [clears throat] one of the one
00:44:39
of the gentlemen on there who had sold businesses over and over again. He says my someone and said when do you sell a
00:44:45
business and his learning was you sell a business when someone wants it and so that was this little nugget which again
00:44:54
I was planning to sell it 5 years and then all these people wanted it and I'm
00:44:57
like okay well maybe maybe it's now [sighs] >> so the day the sale goes through what's
00:45:04
what's that like? So it's it's kind of like I mean there's parallels with you
00:45:07
and your son like similar ages [laughter] >> they're both like babies that you raised
00:45:12
up. That is exactly what it felt like and that's why there was kind of this this beautiful arc in my mind that it
00:45:18
had kind of completed this whole circle. Cam was leaving school and he was moving
00:45:21
on to his building apprenticeship and this was the end of the era and I was passing over this beautiful gift to
00:45:29
someone else to nurture going forward. Um it did yeah the timing felt poetically.
00:45:36
>> Was is there an element of sadness? No, >> no, not sent no sort of sentimental
00:45:42
attachment. >> Well, I I have strong feelings for the people that are there. I loved working
00:45:48
with them. Um, >> but no, my my that was my era. I'm into my next era. And I felt that I honored
00:45:55
that era and I honored the people that I worked with and I could do no more. And
00:46:01
I knew that and it was time to go. And I so no, I have I have fond memories. Um it's it's strange seeing other people
00:46:15
promote the business. That's not me. That that's a really strange feeling.
00:46:18
It's not good or bad. It's just >> weird. >> Yeah. Because you were sort of the the
00:46:22
front face of it for many years. ZB ads. >> Yeah. >> Everything. Interviews.
00:46:27
>> Yeah. But they've got great people doing that. And um and my final management
00:46:33
team >> [clears throat] >> uh they are working with me. Excuse me. [cough]
00:46:38
My final management team largely have moved with me to my next business. So I I know that I'm working with amazing
00:46:44
people. >> But was it a strange feeling though when you sell and you're still involved with
00:46:48
the company? There's that period where you stay on. Um, is it a strange feeling
00:46:52
suddenly like waking up and going to work and it's, you know, different level
00:46:56
of responsibility or it's not it's not yours anymore? >> Yeah, but it's I think you've got to see
00:47:02
things for what they are, not what they're not. I mean, that was um yes, I could say I don't have full control and
00:47:08
all of those things, but I guess I'm more um philosophical >> and it I I don't like when people want
00:47:23
what they don't have or that they've given away. I if I'm like, well, if you
00:47:27
wanted it, why did you give it away? you know, like it's sort of and I but there's a lot of the grief of leaving
00:47:34
happened well before I finished working there, but there was probably a year of grief
00:47:41
where you're just trying to get get the right roles and kind of where you fit
00:47:46
in. But >> um >> yeah, was it like a sense of a loss of identity in a way? Yeah, but I was happy
00:47:52
to lose the identity >> because um I'd given a lot to that identity and it actually wasn't me. It
00:48:00
was it was part of my identity, I guess, to that point. But um I was ready for my
00:48:05
next era. >> Another Taylor Swift reference there. [laughter] >> So many. We should like try and stack
00:48:12
them. [laughter] >> Um okay, be honest. Did you Did you buy anything silly when you cashed out? Did
00:48:21
you go overboard? No. >> Buy yourself those um rebop Reebok shoes that you always wanted that define your
00:48:26
teenage years. [laughter] >> That was my first purchase. Um no, we bought a a farm a little farm up
00:48:36
at Mangafi. But no, not silly things like that. No. Um >> I suppose by by that point any little
00:48:42
little luxuries or things you wanted, you probably already had. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think my probably the one
00:48:50
trigger I remember my son saying what is the point of having all this money if you're not going I mean it's all
00:48:59
relative uh if you're not going to um spoil yourself or treat yourself but but
00:49:06
I felt which I thought was a a valid point. I mean, he obviously wanted me to treat him, which I think was where he
00:49:11
was angling with that comment, but I yeah, I I lived a good life already. It's I didn't really want for anything.
00:49:18
Um, and I do think that if you if you have money coming in, it just tends to amplify whatever feeling you've got. Uh,
00:49:26
so if you're feeling content, you'll continue to feel content, but if you're
00:49:29
feeling anxious or coveting things, then it'll it won't fill a void for you. Um,
00:49:36
but my probably probably the biggest treat to myself that was my Taylor Swift wormly tickets cuz we got a corporate
00:49:44
box. [laughter] >> Oh no, you left that bit out. Unbelievable. Who's we? Who do you
00:49:51
>> My daughter and I. >> Unreal. Oh, what an experience. What a thing to be able to do.
00:49:55
>> It was incred. Like it really [laughter] was incredible. Um, >> what do you pay for a corporate box at
00:49:59
Wembley? I can't even remember because we booked it so long ago and my PA actually did it for me. The the weirdest
00:50:06
thing is that I wasn't sure if it was a legit ticket and I paid all this money
00:50:10
for it. Like maybe it was >> like a few thousand each. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and it's cuz they're not
00:50:19
legit tickets. And you remember with the Taylor Swift, you couldn't like buy and
00:50:24
sell tickets. It had to go through that whatever that website. But what I found out about Wembley is all those corporate
00:50:32
boxes, they're actually owned by hospitality companies and they own the seats that give them the tickets to the
00:50:38
concert. So you're buying a ticket from the hospitality company, not from Ticket
00:50:44
or whoever distributed her tickets, but that I was sort of hoping that that was the case. That's what they told me. But
00:50:49
it's not until you walk in and that you're like, well, here's hoping these
00:50:53
tickets are legit. But I didn't realize the extent of what we had bought until we arrived. So that
00:50:58
was quite cool. >> Oh my god, that's amazing. Yeah. Is it um is it is it hard not to spoil your
00:51:03
kids? Obviously like the you and your husband, there's a lifestyle that you want to want to leave uh lead.
00:51:10
>> Yeah. I Well, you kind of you work out, well, what's the what is a good life for a kid? And I
00:51:19
don't think having everything you want is necessarily a good thing. Um, and my
00:51:25
dad would be pretty strong on you, you're spoiling, which is kind of you're
00:51:29
ruining your children if you did that. >> But I mean, my kids want for nothing. I
00:51:33
mean, but I had a a much smaller lifestyle. My parents were just workingass parents and I never wanted
00:51:40
for anything then. So, it's it's relative. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah, I think they've got a good life.
00:51:46
And you with your um accountant um brain, you must have always had like a figure in in in mind which in the back
00:51:52
of your mind at least that would be like a good amount for a good retirement. >> Um in terms of what you sold enable me
00:51:58
for, how many times more than that figure was it? >> Um I was trying to think what the figure
00:52:05
was. Um maybe seven times more that. >> Wow. >> Yeah. What do you how much for the
00:52:13
average New Zealander like how much do we need for retirement? Is it a million, two million?
00:52:17
>> Well, they they I could tell you based on the literature and things that I've
00:52:22
read that you normally need if you want to live a comfortable lifestyle, that's
00:52:26
defined by what you're used to, right? It's um but for most people, it's a
00:52:33
mortgage free home and you want about a million dollars in the bank to live kind
00:52:36
of that comfortable lifestyle. Now, you could live a whole lot smaller than that. It's not that you couldn't, it's
00:52:41
just it would require you to change your lifestyle. Uh, and for many the definition of financial success is you
00:52:48
can maintain your lifestyle through retirement. Um, but I've got or I had clients that could survive on the
00:52:56
pension alone. I couldn't. I I spend too much and I like cruises too much, you
00:53:01
know. So, and all that costs money, you know, like when they when they do a um the sort of studies on this is how much
00:53:08
you need to spend each week or this is the average amount of spending. I'm like,
00:53:12
how is that the average? That's not even my reality. You know, they'd say maybe
00:53:16
you're spending like a $100 a week on food. That's how they've come up with
00:53:20
the number that you're um needing for retirement. I'm like, I can't even
00:53:24
remember when I spend $100 a week on food. >> Yeah. Yeah. Buy a buy a bottle of wine,
00:53:28
block of cheese, and it's 100 bucks. >> Yeah. I remember at university I only
00:53:33
had $30 a week to spend on food. But >> that's when I couldn't afford a jar, a
00:53:38
jam jar. I had to have jam in a tin. >> Jam in a tin? Is it? >> It was [laughter] a thing. I'm like,
00:53:44
what is this? It was so cheap. It was great. >> What was that like? Like waddies or oak
00:53:47
or something? >> Yeah, I think it was oak. >> Oak. That was a brand.
00:53:50
>> It was. >> Yeah, [snorts] those were the days. >> Why Why are Kiwis so weird talking about
00:53:54
money? >> I feel like the conversation sort of changing a bit, but it's always been
00:53:58
like a quite taboo. E. >> Well, I'm not sure most Kiwis are that successful with their money, so I guess
00:54:04
you don't really want to talk about it if you're not successful. Um, >> I I don't know. It just feels like we're
00:54:10
a little bit behind the times in that. I mean, I'm I'm just a believer if if you
00:54:15
know like just be honest with yourself. Do you think you're on track? If you're
00:54:19
not, get help. Like, but there I think that money is linked to your self-esteem and your self-worth, your general
00:54:27
well-being. It underpins relationships. It's a status thing. And so, there's a
00:54:32
lot there. There's a lot of emotional baggage attached to what you earn and what your life looks like.
00:54:39
>> Does does money buy happiness? >> I think money can help with happiness. I
00:54:45
it's certainly a lack of money can cause an unhappiness, >> but no, I think you've got to have you
00:54:51
got to have the basics right, which has nothing to do with money, >> you know, relationships.
00:54:57
>> Yeah, there'd be nothing worse say like the stressing about money. Yeah. What
00:55:01
was what was your upbringing like? We as I said, we're similar ages. I'm from
00:55:05
Palmerston North. We I grew I grew up >> one of my worst fears I think is being
00:55:09
is being broke. And I think it's probably stems back from a psychological perspective for how I was raised.
00:55:14
>> You know, the the whole money doesn't grow on trees sort of [laughter]
00:55:18
>> like it just always felt like there was um there was there was a shortage or
00:55:22
less than what we needed. And I look back now like we we had a microwave, we had a a video, we shared bedrooms and it
00:55:27
was a small house, but I think we were just very there was this massive sort of middle class and I think we were
00:55:32
probably in there. >> Yeah, I think we were also slapbang kind of in the middle class. Um but I always
00:55:38
um yeah, I thought we had a very com I never felt like we went without. I never I've looked back at my parents'
00:55:45
personality around money. Like my mom is a really good saver >> and my dad is just not a spender.
00:55:53
>> So >> he's kind of a typical surfer that can live off wheat books for a week and
00:56:00
[laughter] and a raspberry bun or something. Yeah. So no, I never I think some people's earliest relationships
00:56:07
with money come from their parents and if that's not a healthy relationship or
00:56:10
if there's an undercurrent that can have a huge impact in your own relationship
00:56:14
with money. If I was to describe mine, it I just had a neutral. It was there was there was always enough when we
00:56:20
needed and um we were happy to kind of adjust as required. >> Yeah. >> So, enable me. You're completely removed
00:56:29
from that now. Um what do you hope the legacy of that company that you've built
00:56:32
will be? >> I hope that it goes on and it grows. Um I hope that they continue to have the
00:56:39
tough conversations and the honest conversations around money. Um, but there's a system that I help built that
00:56:47
I know works and it's very effective. So, they will do well >> and I wish them well.
00:56:53
>> Yeah. Do you um >> All too well. >> Do you do [laughter] There we go again.
00:56:59
>> I knew you would trouble when you walked in. [laughter] >> Um, do you do you hear people coming up
00:57:03
to you like in supermarkets or malls saying, "Hey, I was an Enable Me client." Yeah. Yeah. Well, many of my um
00:57:11
closest Enable Me clients I still am in contact with or have become great friends with. Um and many of them are
00:57:18
even coming to the opening of my new business because they shared their life with me and I want to share what's
00:57:23
happening in my life with them. But it's a very intimate relationship. You're
00:57:27
you're seeing behind the curtain of a couple if it's a couple. Um, you're
00:57:32
seeing some of their idiosyncrasies, how they engage. Um, when one partner's
00:57:39
not pulling, doing what they're supposed to, how they respond to that, they're
00:57:44
sharing that with you. And that is, um, that I guess that's a it can be very
00:57:51
awkward, but it's a it's a great privilege that they would be prepared to
00:57:55
do that. Um, so yeah, I I'm I'm grateful that I had that and >> have made some of my closest friends
00:58:02
through those relationships. >> Yes. So you finished with Enable Me then how much of a break before you have the
00:58:08
idea for Brightly which we'll get into now. >> Yeah. So I [clears throat]
00:58:15
I sold Enable Me and this is the thing when they you sell a business certainly the type of business that I had so like
00:58:20
a service related business you have to stay in the business for a couple of years and they call that your earnout
00:58:25
period and you never really get to this is the thing that kind of ripped my nighty cuz I wanted that celebrity uh
00:58:34
this is amazing we've done it we've crossed the finish line but there's
00:58:38
[snorts] just milestones that you have to keep on hitting the whole way through and by the end you're just like you are
00:58:44
crawling to the finish line much like the marathon that [laughter] uh but I remember when we sorry when I
00:58:53
first sold it and I was working really closely with um someone from the people who purchased us and we s finally signed
00:59:02
off on everything and it was >> I think it was Christmas Eve kind of a few years ago and I went to bed
00:59:10
afterwards like it was done It was right up till like 10:30 at night. It felt maybe five lawyers on the call. It was
00:59:16
just like heavy. Um, and that night I had so it was done. The line was drawn. Everything was signed
00:59:25
off. It was done. Um, I still had my earnout to do, but the agreement was finally signed. And I
00:59:34
I had the best night's sleep of my life. >> Actually, yeah. Yeah. And I thought,
00:59:37
well, I woke up the next day and I'm like, um, everyone said, "How did you
00:59:42
sleep?" And I'm I slept great. And that's sort of my feeling. I'm okay,
00:59:45
it's done. It's done. And I think that process um someone who I worked really
00:59:51
closely with um from the purchaser Mark, he made that process uh as good as it could be
00:59:57
>> and I was really grateful to him for that. So in the earnout, so we do that sign it
01:00:04
off and then we're moving into the earnout and I'm kind of no longer hold
01:00:07
the reigns at that point. Um so that that was sort of weird. Uh but necessary and to be expected, right? It's just
01:00:14
it's very similar to your kids getting older, right? They move to the next stage, they need you less. You've got to
01:00:20
consciously step back. Um and that's sort of what the business was doing. And
01:00:25
and it helped that I could see that it was uh going into safe hands. Um uh but at that point, so I still had
01:00:33
another couple of years in the business. Uh and one of my clients came to see me, uh
01:00:40
Gerbin, and I had been working with her for a few years, her and her partner, and um she came to see me kind of from a
01:00:48
different perspective because her mom um she believed needed to go into a rest home. And she asked me to look at the
01:00:55
rest home contract. She was tossing up between a few of them. um and she wanted to know whether she could
01:01:02
afford it. But I could see she was under kind of huge stress and I was trying to
01:01:06
understand what actually is happening behind the scenes and there's sort of um
01:01:10
there's just a lot that she was working through and I personally hadn't I hadn't
01:01:17
experienced really an aging parent at that point. Like my grandparents were still alive and my parents were still
01:01:24
young and and fit. Um, so I didn't have any lived experience at that point. Uh, but I read these
01:01:33
contracts and it's the first time I'd seen these contracts and I'm pretty good
01:01:38
with property and law. Like that's sort of my background and finance. Um, and I
01:01:42
looked at these contracts and I'm like, sheesh, these are are these legit? And
01:01:49
anyone who's gone through the process of buying into a retirement village or a
01:01:53
rest home knows that they are completely legit. that's what the market has accepted. And I read them and I just
01:01:58
thought these are these are a bit gross actually. You know that and I'm thinking
01:02:03
how on earth can they be allowed to do that? And I had this feeling and it was the
01:02:14
same feeling I had when I decided am I going to do the enable me thing which was when I realized that the banks
01:02:21
charged three times what I was going to pay back three times what I borrowed to the bank. So I my first mortgage was
01:02:27
$350,000. I was going to pay a million dollars back. And I was just like how is that even legit? Like it was it was
01:02:34
weird. And I had that same feeling like this. It felt like an injustice somehow.
01:02:41
I didn't know enough at that point, but I started to pull on this little thread
01:02:46
and and I was I have said to others, you know, I was ready to saddle up and ride
01:02:52
on out of this town and straight up to mangify, you know, like I wasn't looking
01:02:55
for anything, but I pulled on this thread and this thread became something completely different. It's I thought it
01:03:03
was a property play. I thought there was an injustice on that. And I still think
01:03:06
that there are terms within those contracts that I'm like, come on, this is this is not okay. [snorts]
01:03:12
>> But that actually is largely in response to the fact that they can't deliver the
01:03:18
care to these people with the funding you get from there isn't enough funding
01:03:23
from the government. So they run that part of their business at a loss and they make it all work commercially by
01:03:28
kind of overcharging in my mind the property side of things. And that's how the whole thing works.
01:03:35
And we need these players. Like if if they're not the ones building these rest
01:03:38
home beds, who is going to build them? Cuz the government certainly isn't. >> So I'm sort of coming to terms with all
01:03:43
all of this. And I'm like, oh well, this feels like if I'm going to try and get
01:03:47
the property thing sorted, I have to first address the care problem. And I'm like, [laughter]
01:03:56
I don't know if I want to. And you know, I've got people around me. They're like,
01:04:01
you look, you can do it, Hannah. You can do it. I I know what it's like to start
01:04:04
up a business. I I know like they could say whatever and I'm like you're not
01:04:08
fooling me. I've done this. Um but I took a minute and I wanted to try and understand the problem more so I
01:04:18
could work out okay where it's the solution to fix this to then determine am I capable of building that solution
01:04:24
to then decide and do I want to so I I wanted to invest enough to get to the point of do I want to even do this
01:04:32
>> and do you want me to tell you that process or absolutely >> so I spoke to different people and they
01:04:41
said look the this problem isn't unique to New Zealand. So the the one we've got
01:04:47
an aging population and we don't have enough rest home beds and we've got
01:04:52
these retirement villages which are different to rest home. Rest homes are when you have cuz I had to learn all of
01:04:57
this. I kind of piled them all together and said you're a back pack of fat cats
01:05:02
and I'm not impressed. That was sort of my initial judgment that that judgy Hannah [laughter] was coming through
01:05:07
again. But as I looked deeper that I got it wrong. I actually got it wrong. That
01:05:14
the these rest home beds need to be built, but they have these nurses that look after you when you're in a rest
01:05:19
home. So when you move into a rest home, no one wants to be in a rest home, but you actually don't realize that choice
01:05:23
is taken from you. If it's unsafe for you to remain at home, then you will be
01:05:27
put in a rest home. The government subsidize. They pay a lot of money to that rest home care, to that care. So
01:05:33
the nurse round the clock nurse um attention like 70 well it's not the government the taxpayer is paying 70 to
01:05:41
80 grand a year for that person to be to get that care but that and that might cover the care just not really but let's
01:05:48
say it does normally they need the family to put a little bit of money in as well
01:05:53
but that just covers the care that doesn't cover the fact that they there are
01:05:58
there's food to pay you know there's the cost of food for these people that
01:06:01
someone needs to pay for and at the moment it's the rest home and it doesn't
01:06:05
cover the fact that their buildings need to be maintained. So there's just not
01:06:09
enough money and so that's why they what feels like kind of rape and pillaging on these property agreements
01:06:16
because if they don't make this care work then the whole thing crumbles. So that's what I I came to realize and
01:06:25
and when I was talking to age concern and trying to understand the problem, they said, "Look, the problem's worse in
01:06:31
the regions and it's worse if you're a not for-p profofit." You know, I'm
01:06:35
thinking these fat cats, but um in the regions, so I'm okay, well, if the problem's
01:06:42
worse in the regions, then I need to go to a region to kind of understand what is the state of this problem. And that's
01:06:46
when I took um uh a an acquaintance Dr. Minaj with me. I didn't know him particularly well at
01:06:55
that point. And we went to Southland for a couple of weeks to try and understand
01:07:00
what is the process of aging in this country from 65 living not pre- frail, living well through to something
01:07:07
happens, you end up in hospital, you go home, you end up in hospital again, then
01:07:10
you're probably in a rest home and then you're on a 18-month trajectory to
01:07:14
death. That's how grim as it is. And I'm like, okay, that's the that's how it
01:07:18
works. We don't have enough hospital, they call them hospital beds, but rest
01:07:22
home beds. So, what are we going to do? Well, Health New Zealand can't needs to
01:07:27
make it harder to get into a rest home if we have less beds, and they need to encourage people to build more. And I'm
01:07:33
thinking, well, can't we change it the other way? Can't we slow the demand for
01:07:37
these beds down? Like, can't cuz no one actually wants to be in a rest home.
01:07:42
>> Yeah. So, ju just so we're clear. So there's um retirement villages which we
01:07:46
see the ads on TV happy hour bowling green and rest home is sort of where they that you're sitting in a lazy boy
01:07:52
in front of Iale farm all day. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Essentially so your your retirement
01:07:59
village is independent living. It's um there's sort of social connection.
01:08:04
Everyone owns their own unit. Um well they kind of do. They >> Yeah. at all. [laughter]
01:08:12
But they they're in charge of their own lives. They can live and do whatever
01:08:15
they want. They're managing themselves. They don't require any nurse or any care
01:08:20
support. >> When you get to a point though, normally in your 80s, if you're declining, you
01:08:26
are going to need support with your daily activities. That's when you move into a rest home that provides that
01:08:32
support. Uh so most of us don't even whether you go into a retirement village, that can actually be a really
01:08:38
positive thing for a lot of people. It's just most Kiwis can't actually afford to
01:08:43
get into the retirement village. Um, and you still need to be able to pay to get
01:08:49
into a rest home. >> Mhm. >> And so there there's a bit of kind of
01:08:52
money Mary go around with that. So I go to Southland and I'm like, well, they don't even have you can't even get
01:09:01
a specialist down there. Like it's it is nuts. And so we start right at the beginning and we're like, well, hold on.
01:09:08
No one wants to be in hospital. Well, once you get in hospital, that's kind of
01:09:10
the start of the decline into a rest home. So, isn't the objective to bend the curve the other way and keep them
01:09:16
out of hospital makes sense? Preventative care. Like, that's that's really all that is. No, no one wants to
01:09:22
decline at that rate. >> And so, that was kind of the first observation. And then the next
01:09:26
observation is, well, if you're going to try and prevent people who are aging
01:09:29
decline, that's actually a really complex thing to do because their health needs are so complex. Bearing in mind
01:09:37
I'm an accountant. I'm and a business may maybe an entrepreneur. I think we
01:09:43
kind of use that term loosely. Um I know how to grow a business. I know how to build a high performing team. I know how
01:09:50
to create systems, how to develop technology. I know nothing about health. Nothing. And so I'm observing all of
01:09:57
this and I'm talking to all the stakeholders and I'm feeling uncomfortable
01:10:03
at the patch protection at just the nonsense policies that are in place. Like one of the things that ends people
01:10:11
up in hospital is they have a fall, you know, they just accidentally fall. Uh well, you can get full prevention. Um
01:10:19
you can access funding for fall prevention through ACC. I'm like, "This
01:10:23
is amazing." As I'm learning this cuz I'm learning it. And they're like, "Oh,
01:10:26
yeah, but to access it, you need to have fallen." [laughter] >> I'm like,
01:10:32
"What? Like that? >> Where's the common sense?" >> You and you're just like, "How have all
01:10:36
these how has it been allowed to become like this?" But you then you kind of
01:10:42
you're you're gracious and you're like, "Well, I can actually see how how it
01:10:44
is." And unless we actually try and do something collectively, it just becomes
01:10:49
a political hot potato and it's not really a big enough problem yet. So we don't really need to do anything yet.
01:10:54
That's my observation. But within that there are some amazing people working
01:11:00
really really hard and those are the people that I want to I want to help and cuz I I feel that they are taken
01:11:09
advantage by the system >> and I hate it when people are taken advantage of and I hate it when
01:11:16
vulnerable people are exploited or not vulnerable generous people are exploited like nurses caregivers They're not even
01:11:26
paid market salary. I'm like they are literally looking after our citizens and we don't even I I don't
01:11:36
know. There's just I'm just like this this has got to change. And so I'm like
01:11:40
well if I'm going to change if I'm going to come in I'm going to try and change
01:11:43
it all [laughter] because someone's got to fight for these people. >> Did did your did your husband at any
01:11:49
point go oh Hannah do we do we need to do this? Yeah, cuz to use the mountain analogy,
01:11:55
if enable me was like Mount Moongi, it's it feels like this is Everest. >> Yeah,
01:11:59
>> this is a bigger mountain. >> I always wanted to climb Everest. Quite
01:12:02
literally, that was a thing. Yeah. Yeah. >> I'd want to get I'd be quite keen to go
01:12:06
to base camp. >> I wanted to go to base camp as well. >> To go beyond that, I don't know if I've
01:12:10
got any interest in that. >> Well, it's pretty grim up the top. And I thought, knowing me, I'll slip in the
01:12:14
place I wasn't supposed to. Oh. Um >> Well, then you better get the fall
01:12:18
protection insurance. >> Yeah, true. True. after I've [laughter] fallen.
01:12:22
Um I think that this is a really hard problem to solve um because I I I sat with it um
01:12:30
objectively and determine, you know, what what actually needs to be done and how we're
01:12:36
going to do this um to then decide if I want to do it. And I concluded um that I thought I could do it and
01:12:46
if not me, who? And if not now, when? >> When? Yeah. >> And And I I don't know if it's because
01:12:57
I don't have anything to prove, you know, like I'm comfortable. I could just
01:13:00
ride on out if I wanted to, but that gives you a freedom. That really gives you a freedom. It also allows you um
01:13:07
that ability uh to recruit really, really good people to work with you and to pay them what they're worth right
01:13:13
from the start. Because what happens with startups for me, you don't really pay people what they're worth to right
01:13:19
from the start because they're part of kind of that journey and they get the
01:13:22
excitement of creating something new and being able to influence that and that is
01:13:25
a value to a lot of people. Um, but with that kind of sacrifice for me, I found that really hard because I felt that
01:13:34
they were giving more to the cause than what they were getting paid for. And they were happy to do that, but it kind
01:13:41
of created an sort of an obligation in my own mind that became quite heavy at times that I felt that I owed more than
01:13:50
what I probably did. Uh, and that can influence your thinking, your treatment, your assessment of how they're
01:13:55
performing. that that becomes actually something quite heavy to bear. And so I I've freed my some of those learnings
01:14:03
I've managed to free myself from with this next venture because they they are
01:14:07
the things that actually make it hard >> for me. Not everyone's like that.
01:14:11
>> Would you now consider yourself an accountant or a serial entrepreneur?
01:14:14
>> Well, I've never considered myself an accountant. Um I have an accounting qualification. I'm
01:14:20
I'm quick with numbers. I'm a quick read. I understand law and finance and I
01:14:25
love that stuff. I mean, this is how I know that maybe I am an accountant. I love it when I balance something.
01:14:32
[laughter] That is just the coolest feeling. And only an accountant will understand that. Um, I don't think I'm a
01:14:39
serial entrepreneur. I think I'm a problem solver. >> I think I'm a pioneer. Um,
01:14:46
I think I can see what needs to be done and I can assess the risk correctly and I I see this as big. I'm not dismissive
01:14:55
of it, but I think I can do it and the team around me, the clinical team is incredible and my management team,
01:15:08
I trust them with my life because they I've worked with them for many years.
01:15:13
And this is how our paths crossed. Um, as part of Brightly, um, you've started
01:15:18
a new podcast called The Next Bit. What is The Next Bit? >> The Next Bit is a podcast aimed at
01:15:24
helping people age well, to be informed, um, to hear the things that no one talks about
01:15:32
honestly as it as it relates to aging well. And I think when we think of aging, whether you're the person who is
01:15:39
aging or the adult child of that person, it feels pretty big. And my experience with enable me, even retirement is big.
01:15:49
That's something we spend a lot of time preparing families for. Um, if we can
01:15:54
just break it down into bits and let's just focus on one bit at a time and we're going to give you the next bit and
01:16:00
we're going to navigate this. And I don't accept how we have supported aging. I recognize how we've supporting
01:16:07
aging to this point, but I don't accept that as being the way that it needs to
01:16:12
be or should be. And I'm keen to reinvent that >> and to take it to the world.
01:16:18
>> And the day before doing this podcast, um, you had your first recording day and
01:16:23
it was a it was a joy to watch you work. >> Uh, [laughter] this was your your first
01:16:26
experience at sort of hosting something. >> Um, and I thought you did really really
01:16:30
well. >> Thank you. It's been um fun watching the way you approach things.
01:16:34
>> Yeah, I'm I'm quite quiet like in my assessment of things. I'm not and I am
01:16:42
always trying to determine where where I need to improve or what I'm good at and what I'm not good at and where
01:16:51
other people can lift you. >> This is going to be very exciting. the next bit. I can't wait for it to be um
01:16:58
released into the wild and watch it grow. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, like when you think about um
01:17:04
Brightly and what you're trying to do, like does it give you butterflies? >> I feel and this I'm like do I even want
01:17:10
to say this cuz I'm like don't jinx it. Um I feel that my professional life
01:17:21
um and maybe parts of my personal life have brought me to this point >> and this is what I have trained for and
01:17:31
I thought that it was enable me but actually I think enable me was just the testing ground for what I'm about to do
01:17:38
and and that you know when [sighs] it's funny because when you're training
01:17:48
for something actually um when I did the London marathon with another cluster I mean
01:17:56
like there's a process with with marathons like firstly when I did started the New York I wasn't sure how
01:18:01
long it was going to take so I think I said 5 and a half hours and so they put you in your your pen your corral I was
01:18:09
literally with people who were wearing tutus, like club feet. I'm like, "What
01:18:16
is this?" It was horrific. And you go through the process of the run and you
01:18:21
and you kind of start with, "Okay, you're feeling good." And then you're
01:18:24
like, "Oh, I'm starting to feel tired." And then I'm like, "Oh, I'm feeling
01:18:27
really, really tired." And then you kind of that next stage which you always hope
01:18:31
you never get to, which is, "Am I about to soil myself?" Like, [laughter]
01:18:36
it is disgusting. And I'm pleased to say I have never been there, but I was always fearful of this when I did the um
01:18:44
London Marathon um and my husband did it as well cuz the thing about New York that I hated is that there was no one at
01:18:50
the end that could wait for you cuz everyone they think everyone's going to have a bomb or something so they usher
01:18:55
you through. Uh so I did the London and it was hard but I was going for my four and a half and I trained for it and I
01:19:01
was ready. The last thing my dad said to me before I left to go to London was look don't kill yourself Han. I'm okay.
01:19:07
Thanks, Dad. Like, [laughter] but I took that on board and I um I was at my halfway point and I was tracking to
01:19:16
because I want to do four and a half hours and I think I'd done it for like 2
01:19:20
hours and 8 minutes or something like that. So, I'm I'm actually in with a
01:19:23
shot. This is amazing, you know, kind of all these things. And then I looked down
01:19:27
at my I don't even know if it was right, but I looked down at my watch and it
01:19:29
said like my heart rate was like 180 or something. I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Oh, I
01:19:33
did promise my dad I wasn't going to die, so I'm just going to just Yeah.
01:19:37
Anyway, I get I get to the end and it was just a terrible race and I was like, "Oh, I felt I just felt like a dick." I
01:19:43
was just like, "This I tried for something. I really wanted it and I didn't get it." And um Billy was at the
01:19:51
end. I don't know how he managed to get there. Obviously, he had finished a whole lot faster than me. And he grabbed
01:19:55
me and he gave me a hug. And I was thinking to myself, "You're not going to
01:20:01
be able to say anything in this moment that's going to make me feel better. this is what I'm thinking.
01:20:06
>> And um and don't even bother trying. That's what I'm feel like. I was kind of
01:20:10
angry and I was crying at that point. And um >> I said, I just feel like such a dick.
01:20:16
Like it was just such a terrible run and I trained for and it didn't happen as I
01:20:20
needed to. And he said to me, he said, "Han, you carried the boats." And and it
01:20:28
was like the perfect thing to say. And it was based on some weird Navy Seal. I don't know if you've heard heard of him.
01:20:34
>> David Gogggins. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you you know when they're training and
01:20:38
>> Yeah. Who's going to carry the boats? >> Yeah. And you know that. So that's the
01:20:42
people they're rowing till they die cuz I used to row and people stop rowing.
01:20:48
Not helpful. Like lay down sally in your boat. And the people who are still rowing are literally carrying the whole
01:20:54
boat. >> And I'm like that's just the perfect thing to say. I just carried the boat. I
01:21:00
didn't do what I wanted to do. I didn't achieve in that situation what I wanted
01:21:03
to achieve, but I got it done. >> And I think that strengthens me for other things.
01:21:07
>> Yeah. And you got something done regardless of your time. I say to people
01:21:11
that finish a marathon, you you've got something done that 98% of the population are never going to do.
01:21:15
>> I know, but you can't look at life like that. You've got to look at it, but what
01:21:19
could I have done? Not I'm better than them. [laughter] >> But yes. But yeah,
01:21:25
>> you're still in a very, very special group. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:21:29
>> But we try. >> Okay. So, you're a you're a solver, you're a doer, you're a fixer. How good
01:21:33
are you at asking for help? >> I'm great. >> I am. >> Yeah.
01:21:36
>> Yeah. Um, but I I want to first kind of scope where the where the help is. I
01:21:41
think sometimes you can get the wrong you you know you need something, but if you ask the wrong person or if the
01:21:48
question is not framed correctly, you don't actually get the right answer. So,
01:21:52
I spend time kind of reflecting and thinking on that and Yeah. But I'm good at asking for help.
01:21:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, from your background it would be like you most people asking
01:22:01
their uncle for financial advice or for stock market tips. >> Yes, I can do all of those. What's
01:22:06
interesting with the cuz I'm not medical and I do think that this is the um the
01:22:10
superpower of Brightly. So there's this incredible clinical team, 10 or so expert clinicians in older person care
01:22:18
and then there's an advisory group of some of the best medical minds in the country. you know, they are they're like
01:22:26
on one hand I'm like you're amazing. On the other hand, they look at everything
01:22:31
from a clinical perspective and I'm a consumer and I don't care about some of
01:22:36
the stuff that they care about. I like as a um the daughter of someone of parents who are aging, I want to know
01:22:44
particular things and that's been a we've had some very robust conversations
01:22:50
where they are trying to present something clinically and I'll be like I just don't care. I don't care. What I
01:22:56
care about is this. Or similarly, they say something and I don't even understand it. I'm like, I don't even
01:23:01
know what you're saying to work out if that's important. And I think we're
01:23:04
going to start to break down. Those are barriers in an industry where these amazing people are not actually getting
01:23:09
the results that they should because the system, the way that we communicate is is separate from what the consumer
01:23:17
needs. And so I've tried to build brightly so that it's person centered.
01:23:22
Let's start with people and that's the the the patients or the members that
01:23:25
we're working with, but it's also the team, the nurses and the geriatricians
01:23:29
and all of those. Let's start with the right people and let's design something
01:23:33
that the person wants. And there's this concept and [laughter] this is slightly
01:23:40
um this is not meant to be egotistical at all, but there's this concept of so
01:23:46
often when people start businesses, they start something that's already there and
01:23:51
they try and make it better. And that's fine. and the market knows what they
01:23:55
want and they are trying to create a better version. And that's great. That's
01:24:00
how most businesses work. But there's this other concept called the lighthouse
01:24:04
identity, which is when you are a new concept, the market doesn't even know what they want because they haven't
01:24:10
experienced it yet to know that that's actually what they need. And because you're you're instead of just a instead
01:24:16
of being a mirror and reflecting back to the market what they think they want, you're actually a lighthouse and you're
01:24:21
kind of projecting a light. this and the best example of that is um Steve Jobes with Apple products. Like who knew that
01:24:30
we need we couldn't live without these Apple products and this is what I want
01:24:34
Brightly to be that every family needs this and I'm going to prove to you that
01:24:39
you you will want this for your family and I'm designing it so that you genuinely believe that.
01:24:45
>> Yeah. Steve Jobs famously against focus groups. He he said um you know people
01:24:50
can't describe what they want but he can. And even way back Henry Ford with the Model T Ford I think his quote is
01:24:56
something like if I asked consumers what they wanted they'd say faster horses.
01:24:59
>> Exactly. Exactly. And that's that's what we're pioneering here.
01:25:04
>> Well that's [snorts] really exciting and I think that the the timing's never been
01:25:07
better. You know aging population. >> Yeah. Around the world. >> What about politics? Did you consider
01:25:12
politics? >> I think I've got too many skeletons. [laughter] >> Have you? I don't believe it.
01:25:18
>> I [gasps] know people well I won't say what people have said but um I think I can be more
01:25:25
effective uh for whoever is in government like we want to create change. I want New Zealand to be
01:25:34
the new like I want us to be progressive and productive but there was an essence
01:25:40
to being a Kiwi maybe from 10 or 20 years ago. I don't know how or why we have lost that, but I want to start to
01:25:46
bring that back. And that was when we were brave and we were supportive of people and you were proud to be a Kiwi.
01:25:53
Um, I think I can create that in the wild rather than through policy setting. >> I'm curious about these skeletons and
01:26:03
what you you [laughter] you self-censored before. What what have people said because you've you curious
01:26:08
about this cuz you've had detractice your entire life. like when you left school early, there was a school teacher
01:26:12
that said, "You're making a big mistake." >> Um, you got married early. There was the
01:26:17
the boss that um fired you after the bad idea. Yeah. >> It feels like um you've had this ability
01:26:22
to use negativity as fuel along the way. >> It's definitely fuel. One of my favorite
01:26:26
sayings and I say it to my mom when when I'm debriefing some disaster. I'm like,
01:26:31
they they will ru the day. That's that's my saying. And um it's satisfying when
01:26:40
though it just it doesn't get to me those comments. What people have said is
01:26:44
um politically uh that they think that I should um I'm not even going to say it.
01:26:51
It's too [laughter] embarrassing. No, no, no. [clears throat] Too embarrassing. Um but yeah, we're coming
01:27:00
for you, so you better do a good job whoever's running this country. >> Yeah. Um, what is the biggest stuff up
01:27:05
you've ever made? Is there anything that springs to mind? >> Probably um
01:27:16
I I'd need to think about that. I've I've made lots of mistakes, but I don't
01:27:21
>> tend to attribute it as a stuff up because it's a learning for me. So, I
01:27:25
don't I'm not regretting something. Oh, I wish I hadn't done that. um pro probably my not
01:27:34
my stuffups but it's a learning that I have made now I I used to find it hard
01:27:42
to give direct feedback to people when it was negative of often because they were working so hard and had
01:27:51
sacrificed other things in order to be doing what they're doing >> uh I think that that puts pressure on
01:27:59
other members of the team if you're carrying low performance or poor performance. It
01:28:04
certainly isn't fair to the high performers. Um, and one of my learnings is it
01:28:09
doesn't matter how hard you're rowing if you're rowing in the wrong direction.
01:28:14
>> And so sometimes having the ability to assess are you still on track is just as
01:28:20
important. >> Yeah. How did you overcome that that fear of difficult conversations? Uh you
01:28:26
you we sort of established before that you you know your people people pleaser tendency. So it definitely goes goes it
01:28:32
aligns with that. >> Did you did how did Yeah. How did you >> I actually had in Enable Me I bought on
01:28:38
um someone into the CEO role. Um his name was Jonno and and I he's sort of like my antithesis
01:28:51
but we work very very well together. Um but in his spare time he um is an international referee. So he referees uh
01:29:01
net and also rugby. And what that means is that he enjoys conflict and making a decision very
01:29:11
quickly in the moment and calling people out very quickly and [snorts] it comes naturally to him. So you kind of you see
01:29:18
these photos of him and he's got, you know, two rugby players up in his face
01:29:21
and he's giving one a red card or whatever the case is. It it just doesn't
01:29:25
even bother him. And he comes to so he's all about trying to create high performance. And his observation to me
01:29:32
was, Hannah, you're carrying more of the load than you should and that's
01:29:37
impacting our ability to grow and your inability to tell people that they're
01:29:42
not performing as they should is putting pressure on everyone else. So, he kind of just he he called it like to my face.
01:29:47
>> And that was probably the the reckoning that I needed. >> Um, and I've just learned to get better
01:29:54
with that. It's a lot easier to do it when the relationship starts that way,
01:29:58
you know, where it's you kind of lines aren't crossed and sacrifices aren't
01:30:03
made that play out perversely um down the track. It's a lot easier when it's a
01:30:07
clean slate. Definitely. >> Do you do any tricks like the compliment sandwich? like give give them some good
01:30:12
news then the bad news then [laughter] >> um it's >> or you just more direct? Uh well there
01:30:19
there's this concept um that they studied at Harvard Business School and it's called when you red team someone
01:30:27
and it's when you basically give them feedback right between the eyes and you
01:30:31
kind of tell them things that they might not have even thought of or considered and
01:30:38
it can be quite confronting and it can be quite jarring but it is one of the most effective ways that you can
01:30:43
communicate with any team is just give it to them straight. my I've had to learn to do that and I normally need to
01:30:50
preface it with hey I need to give you some feedback and then I'll go into it
01:30:55
not >> the compliment sandwich is [snorts] >> it it can be helpful at certain levels
01:31:00
of an organization or certain maturity of people in the organization but if you are in the trenches with someone or you
01:31:07
consider yourself a Navy Seal of which I actually consider myself a Navy Seal [laughter]
01:31:11
I've always thought I'd love to do that training >> well the hell week looks terrible It
01:31:16
does, but kind of amazing, right? It would just be so cool to get through. >> But when you're in the trenches with
01:31:22
someone, >> I just think it's >> you you make it harder for them to be
01:31:28
successful if you can't be honest with them. >> And that's that's always hard to get the
01:31:34
balance right. Even in relationships, that can be hard. You know, that's your
01:31:37
your working relationship, but personal relationships or with your kids, you don't want to just nag all the time. And
01:31:44
so you yeah, you choose kind of when you want to say something, but when you do say something, you want it to you want
01:31:50
it to land. >> When I had Sir Steve Hansen on the podcast, he he's got a name for it. I
01:31:55
think he calls it the 20% conversations. And he says to when he was in charge of
01:31:58
the All Blacks, say something like, "Look, 80% of the conversations, eight out of 10 conversations we have are
01:32:03
going to be positive. Two out of 10 are going to be difficult, and we just need to accept that
01:32:06
>> and we need to be okay with it." Yeah. I don't think the Kiwi mentality is that
01:32:11
is wired to deliver that well or to receive that as they should. I when I think of the Australian mentality, I
01:32:19
think that they are definitely wired for for that. Maybe because their living conditions back in the day were a whole
01:32:24
lot more brutal, you know. >> How happy are you on a scale of 1 to 10? How happy are you today? And when have
01:32:30
you been your happiest? >> Um, I'd probably say I'm nine. I'm probably
01:32:36
>> That's a great number. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm happiest when my kids are doing well.
01:32:44
Certainly when they're not getting in trouble. Um I'm not happy when if my
01:32:49
son's getting in trouble. [laughter] >> What sort of trouble does he get in?
01:32:52
>> We don't even want to talk about that. Um but I love my son. Let Let me know.
01:32:59
Let me say that. We we have this this farm as I mentioned up at Mangafi and it's the most special place and it has
01:33:07
this essence to it which I always was trying to create where you go there and you just kind of shake off the cares of
01:33:14
the world and you just you go back to what it once was where you can talk to people and um so we've we've built this
01:33:21
kind of amazing outdoor kitchen beside this lake and and it's incredible. So,
01:33:27
we've just had over Christmas, we've had heaps of people over, but on that farm
01:33:31
we've kind of it's that it's my homesteading era. So, um we've got two
01:33:36
coonies and three dogs and four chickens. Um soon to have some cattle and sheep. It's just a little farm. But,
01:33:45
um, that's where I'm probably my happiest because people come and I feel
01:33:51
like you you can kind of help them take a load off. And with Enable Me, I was trying to help my
01:34:00
clients take a financial load off. And with Brightly, I'm wanting families to
01:34:06
have a load off through that process. But I think just in life, if I can be known for something, maybe
01:34:15
it's that I helped wash your feet or take that load off. And this this farm allows us to do that.
01:34:23
And and it is wonderful. And I feel that it's um I feel just so lucky that I'm that we
01:34:32
can be generous and gracious through that. It's nice. Are you able to switch
01:34:37
off when you're out on the farm or are you sort of like worring over like there's a whole lot of tabs open in your
01:34:41
in your mind? >> Yeah, I love I love that analogy. Um I can definitely switch off, but I love
01:34:48
being able to go for long walks and think. Uh that's one of the things I love about running is that nothing kind
01:34:53
of allows you to think or forget like running. Like just all the noise goes away. Um
01:34:59
>> it's great processing time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Often if I've got a problem,
01:35:04
I normally listen to music when I run unless I have a problem I'm trying to crack and then I won't and I'll just
01:35:09
think about that problem for the whole run. And normally something shaken down by the end. It's pretty cool.
01:35:16
>> We call that raw dogging nowadays apparently. >> Do we? >> Yeah. If you if you run without music,
01:35:20
it's raw dogging. >> Oh [laughter] >> yeah. I used to do it without music. Now
01:35:25
I need the music. >> Yeah. >> And it's a thing that that whole Do you
01:35:28
listen to music >> occasionally? Yeah. This morning I didn't because I just I had some stuff
01:35:32
that I wanted to think about and I wanted to think about this podcast today and how I was going to structure it. Um
01:35:37
but usually I do but you do you become sort of quite reliant on it. >> That's the problem. Yeah. So when you
01:35:43
when I was um training for the coast and the Iron Man and stuff that cuz I don't
01:35:48
think you back in the day I don't know if it's the case now. I don't think you
01:35:51
were allowed to listen to music. So all that training was without music. >> But now cuz marathons are so kind of
01:35:57
long and boring I need something to get me through. And when you kind of what music you schedule at different parts of
01:36:02
the marathon is always interesting. >> A playlist. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um what would you say your best and
01:36:08
worst habits are? >> Oh, >> I can probably come up with best. Okay, let's not worry about that. What would
01:36:13
your worst be? What would your worst habits be? >> Um what are some examples? I don't think
01:36:20
>> I don't know. I don't know. It's over. >> I'm pretty I'm pretty wholesome. Like I
01:36:24
don't really have I don't think I've got bad habits. Hey, maybe I don't pick up
01:36:28
my clothes from the bathroom that night or the next day. [laughter] >> And having got got to know you recently,
01:36:34
I know you're like a a can of Diet Coke per day. It's a a small luxury you
01:36:39
>> that I allow myself >> never deprive yourself of. >> Yeah, I love that. And it but it didn't
01:36:42
work well for me cuz I remember when my son um when we found a vape in his room,
01:36:47
whole different story. Um >> and what age? >> 16. >> Oh yeah. and we'd gone in there looking
01:36:55
for um Billy had gone and looking for some money, found a vape. He calls me. This is just such a mother thing. He
01:37:02
goes, "I found a vape in Cam's room." I'm like, "What?" I go I'm like, "Well,
01:37:06
it couldn't be Cams. He's not that stupid." And he's like, "It will be
01:37:10
Cams." He is that stupid. And I'm pretty sure where there's one, there's going to
01:37:14
be a whole lot more. And it's that he channeled his inner 15year-old or 16-year-old self and then managed to
01:37:20
find a whole handful of them. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And [snorts]
01:37:26
in any case, when I was saying to Cameron, "Why are you vaping? This is just I don't get it. You know, it's bad
01:37:31
for you. We like and his response was, "Well, you drink Diet Coke and that's
01:37:36
not good for you." And [laughter] and I had no response. I'm like, I'm thinking
01:37:41
to myself, "Wow, he probably has a point." Anyway, so that's kind of the
01:37:45
vape Diet Coke um blend. >> Um when was the last time you cried? Ah. Um, but within the last month.
01:37:58
>> Yeah. What was it about? I think there was a positive and there was a negative. Um,
01:38:08
>> like happy tears, sad tears. >> Yeah. Happy tears and sad. Yeah, that's
01:38:12
right. Two different scenarios. >> Yeah. >> The um Oh, actually when I was doing the
01:38:18
podcast yesterday, I cried. When I think of my grandmother, um, who probably inspired me to follow through with this,
01:38:25
I I get quite emotional with that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. She's passed now.
01:38:30
>> What are you most afraid of, [snorts] >> apart from finding another vape?
01:38:39
[laughter] Honestly, um [snorts] what I'm I'm most afraid of there sort of layers to that like that
01:38:51
if I don't know how deep you want to go with that, but um >> probably being dishonest with myself
01:38:58
>> like in terms of >> um just pretending >> something or romanticizing something
01:39:04
that's not there. >> Um >> just ignoring a reality in a way. >> Yeah. Yeah. probably that which I'm not
01:39:11
really afraid of. I just try and pride myself in not doing that. Um if I go deeper
01:39:22
um whether probably that goes more into the spiritual if I go deeper. So I don't
01:39:32
know if you want that. >> Oh yeah. No, let's go there. >> Oh god. Um,
01:39:36
>> are you are you religious in any way or are you are you atheist, agnostic?
01:39:40
>> No, I definitely believe in God. Definitely believe in God and I believe
01:39:43
in Jesus. Um, and I go to church >> and I [sighs and gasps] speak with the tongues of angels.
01:39:52
[laughter] >> What does that mean? >> I it it's um I can speak in tongues or
01:39:56
have the Holy Spirit. So, it's quite a big thing. So, my biggest fear is that
01:40:01
um uh that I won't that I'll be found wanting. >> Oh, so you won't make it to heaven.
01:40:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. But that's sort of in a um that would be my Yeah. Probably my
01:40:18
biggest fear. Not because I think I'm going to hell. Um I just wonder if the
01:40:23
path to heaven's different than what most people think. There's there's sort
01:40:27
of a graciousness that you want to receive. Yeah. >> Is is that what sort of guides you on a
01:40:33
day-to-day basis? >> At a deep level. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. At a soul level. And I always
01:40:38
think that, you know, when and sort of back to Brightly, I I'm like I feel that
01:40:42
at a soul level, I'm meant to be doing this. Um but at a soul level, I want my
01:40:49
kids to have a great a great life and to have fulfillment. And I don't think it
01:40:53
comes from money necessarily, but it comes from purpose. >> Uh, and I want it to be said, you know,
01:40:59
I ran a good race and um, and I tried hard. And there's that beautiful actually in our office in Brightly,
01:41:07
we've got that Roosevelt saying, you know, that if you're going to strive,
01:41:11
strive valiantly. And you're in the arena and you're covered in blood, sweat, and tears. And you may, but at
01:41:17
least you you gave it a good shot. And that's what I want to be said of me. Like I'm not saying that I've got all
01:41:22
the answers. I'm not saying that um definitely don't have all the answers,
01:41:27
but I reckon I can um yeah, I've trained for it. >> Say it's um say it's your funeral. Um
01:41:37
Oh, yeah. And your your children and your husband, they're standing around the coffin. You're on the the Jet Star
01:41:43
flight to heaven. [laughter] >> No, definitely be Emirates, I'd say. Um
01:41:48
yeah. What three words would you like your family to use to describe you? >> Oh,
01:41:54
um, discerning. >> Uh, loving and generous. >> They're great words.
01:42:08
>> Yeah. Is that Is that how you're living your life? >> No one's ever said There's lots of words
01:42:14
that come up like repeatedly. No one's ever said discerning before. >> It's a great word. Yeah,
01:42:18
>> great word. Are you proud of yourself? >> Yes. >> Hannah McQueen, this has been a great
01:42:25
podcast. >> How's it been for you? Are are you going to have a vulnerability hangover driving
01:42:30
home like you've just shared? >> Probably. >> I've heard a lot of podcasts with you in
01:42:34
the last couple of weeks knowing that this was coming up and um a lot of them had have been questioning you about
01:42:39
money and about, you know, the psychology of money and Kiwi's relationships with money. that I don't
01:42:44
think you've ever been as open or as honest in a podcast as what you've been
01:42:48
today. >> No, [laughter] I'm already thinking, will I regret this? >> Oh well.
01:42:55
>> Well, it's been wonderful. I've really enjoyed it. It's been really um nice to
01:42:59
get to know you the last couple of months as a client, but um also to get to know you on a deeper level as a
01:43:04
podcast guest. >> Thank you. >> You're a great New Zealander. Thank you.