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You're widely regarded as one of the country's most influential business
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woman. >> I'm a kid who was born into a poor workingclass family in the north of
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England. I left school. I've got not one tertiary qualification. People will
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discover one day that I am really useless. >> You've already been like more open and
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unguarded than what I was potentially anticipating. >> Well, you see, I've lived a pure life.
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There's no real big secrets. We had a hit list. We'd seen him outside the
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record shop. He was only number seven out of 10. Physically, we always been really compatible. People sort of think
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you die from the neck down once you're 45, but you know that ain't true. My
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heart stopped in the second facelift I was having, literally. >> Do you do you feel like talking about
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that or not so much? >> Dom, I'm only ever sort of 30 seconds away from bursting into tears about it.
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And he died suddenly in front of the children. So the whole thing was horrendous. I'm coping. I don't know
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that I'm healing. >> What three words would you like your grandkids to say about you?
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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
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Holland one in To. He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate. Putting performance
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first. >> Dame Joan Withers, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you, Dom.
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I'm so honored that that you're here. I reached out to you last year. I I know
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I'm aware you haven't done a lot of podcast um stuff before, so I was I was
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quite surprised you said yes. >> I was flattered to be asked. >> Where? Why?
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>> Well, I just think another media personality. And I guess, you know, it's
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always I find it incredibly self-indulgent to go into these sorts of conversations as opposed to being
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sitting around a board table after having read 300 pages of pre-eread. This is fun.
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Well, I hope it will be fun. Um, it's an honor to have you here. You you're
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widely regarded as one of the country's most influential businesswoman. Um, became a dame a year, two years ago,
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>> about 18 months ago. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, some of the stuff you've
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done, you were the chair of the warehouse for 9 years. Um, director at A&Z, um, Sky TV, Origin Energy, Mercury,
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TVZ, Oakland Airport, Treasury Advisory Board. Um, you've been CEO of the radio
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network, CEO of Fairfax. Um, yeah, it's it's an incredible LinkedIn page, isn't
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it? >> Uh, look, it's a long career and you can pack quite a lot into the length of time
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that I've been back in the workforce. So, um, I think I've been incredibly
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lucky. A lot of it's about being in the right place at the right time. Um, a lot
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of it's about the fact that at the stage I was rising through the ranks in terms
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of a career, there were loads of opportunity for women and there were active initiatives to get more women
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into into leading roles, whether it be in executive life or or in governance around a board table. Uh, and I'm also
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incredibly lucky in that I had a shining example of what work ethic looks like from my father. So, I've never been shy
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of hard work uh and applying myself when I needed to. >> Yeah, I've got a quote from you. Uh my
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approach to life and business boils down to this. There are no shortcuts, no silver bullets. If you are diligent and
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tenacious and make the most of the opportunities you're offered, you can still get to the top.
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>> Yeah, I'd stand by that. >> Yeah, it's a great quote. Um I Googled you um last week when I was
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preparing for this interview and it just came out on on like Google alerts like just a couple of days ago that you're
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finishing with um A&Z in July this year after being there how like 12 years.
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>> Yeah, I think it'll be close to 13 by the time I go. Yes. >> Yeah. Wh why why the decision? Oh um the
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normal tenure in fact it's sort of almost the protocol is 9 years maximum but for a variety of reasons because of
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a lot of change on the A&Z New Zealand board um Sir John Key was the chair at
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the time and asked me to extend my tenure and then again I was asked for another year just as as we sorted out
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succession at board level. it. You know, always with a board, it's a matter of
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having the right mix of experienced people who've been there long enough and
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have got institutional knowledge, making sure you're getting fresh blood in.
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>> I'm I'm so excited to um pick your brains about what it actually means cuz
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I've never been in a boardroom in my in my life. I'm on the um the body corp
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committee at my apartment. Um and I find that a ball ache sometimes just the messages going backwards and forwards in
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the WhatsApp group for a boutique apartment. So I can't imagine how intense it is at the sort of level
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you're doing. But um yeah, when you when you strip away the titles and the achievements, who are you at your core?
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>> Look, I'm a kid who was born into a um pretty poor workingclass family in the
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north of England. Um whose parents decided to immigrate after my maternal grandmother died and come out here cuz
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my father's family were here. I don't think I've ever le lost those workingclass roots.
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Um, so my life experience is probably very different to that of a lot of people I sit around a board table with.
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>> Uh, as I said before, I've worked hard, >> always have worked hard.
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>> I've had um the absolute good fortune to have a life partner, the same life partner
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since I was 15. So I think that's a big part of who I am because we've grown up together and
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we're now growing old together >> and those are the things that are really
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rock solid and fundamental. So you know dad I guess was a really positive influence not only in terms of
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that work ethic but also in terms of integrity. >> You know he's one of those guy I would
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stake my life on the fact he never did anything wrong in his life. you know, he was just that sort of guy.
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>> He um was in the army. His father put him into the territorials when he was
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15. Lied about his age. Could see the Second World War coming up. Demobbed when he was 26.
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Trained as a sheet metal worker. Made the decision to come out to New Zealand. Couldn't get a job as a sheet metal
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worker. So ended up rolling coils of rubber hose at the reed rubber factory which is right where that intersection
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is now at um at Ellisley. Um and you know gave us all the three girls gave us all a very very good grounding
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on um doing the right thing. >> You So you're born 1953 in Manchester.
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>> Yep. >> Any memories? Any memories from those early years in the UK? Yeah, slight
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memories. I started school there and I think as you would expect the journey um sticks in my mind going on a big boat
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for 5 weeks. >> Oh, was it a boat? >> It was a boat. >> Oh my god.
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>> And rough seas. Um so I can remember seeing, you know, standing up on a mezzanine floor and
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seeing the dining room be below sort of swaying and plates sliding down the table. Just just little memories like
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that. Can can remember meeting my paternal grandparents for the for the first time. So patchy but yes still
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there. >> So you you're six when you moved to New Zealand. Um yeah what can you remember
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your first impressions or your parents Lillian Lillian and Lillian and Jack? What did they tell you about? I
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>> had done a lot of research. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh there wasn't a lot of because my
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grandmother died quite suddenly and she was only 69. and she lived with us. There's no way my mother would have
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immigrated while her mother was alive. So, it was she died in the March, I think, and I think we're on a boat in
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the June or July. So, it was incredibly quick. Um, so we weren't given much of a
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preamble about what to expect. My mother when she arrived was devastated. One, she was still grieving, no doubt, but
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also this was just such a backwater, you know, to her. So, so she suffered I think what would be classified now as
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depression. Remember her crying a lot as we were kids. Um, so yeah, I mean the thing I remember most
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is I really wanted to fit in. I had this North of England accent which was very different to my peers at school. And you
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know, note to self, get rid of the accent real quick, >> which I managed to do. My older sister,
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who was about 5 years older than me, didn't manage to get rid of it so quickly, but I just tried to fit in. And
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then I think I loved it, you know. I think I loved going to the beach. I loved the open air, you know, loved
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playing with the kids in the neighborhood. So, yeah. >> What did you want to be when you grew
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up? Did did little girls have career aspirations back then? Were they allowed to have career aspirations?
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>> They're definitely allowed to. And again I think and I've this is my view more
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and it's something that I work on at the moment is you cannot be what you cannot
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see. So you still see it in New Zealand unfortunately that that children who don't get exposed to what is the
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possible have a much harder time of finding of of I guess maximizing their opportunities and reaching their full
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potential. I um I didn't really have a fixed view. I loved creative things, which is weird because I've I'm
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absolutely really not that creative, but I thought I might be a fashion designer.
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So, I actually used to do sketches and send them off to some of the designers. I remember someone like Kevin Bean and
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people don't poor things getting these very amateur-ish, awful thing, awful sketches. But no, it was more when I
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went to high school. I went to a very very good Catholic girls college and the head teacher there was an amazing woman
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and she really did start to give you a perspective on you could do whatever you wanted to do but once I met Brian that's
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all I wanted to do so I left school straight after sitting school C they invited me to come back and and promised
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me UEIE accredititation I would go straight into the seventh form but there was no way So,
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>> I've heard Yeah. You mentioned before that your dad never did like anything
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wrong in his life. Um, I've heard you describe yourself as a rebellious teen.
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>> I was. >> Were you Were you a badass? What were you >> Well, not bad. You know, there's a
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continuum of bad. >> Bad by like Catholic Catholic school standards and by your dad's benchmark
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perhaps. >> Yeah. Look, there was never anything that was particularly egregious, but um
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my sister, my older sister was very good and would say, "Look, mom, I'll help you
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with the ironing." That absolutely was not me. Is like I want to go to that
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dance, you know. So, so it it there was rebellion um to an extent. Um yeah, once I met Brian, I was pretty
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adamant I wanted to go out with him. And when they said, "Well, you can go out in
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the weekend, but you're not going out on on during the school week." That was it.
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And I came home, I remember coming home, sitting the last school C exam, and I said, "I'm out of there.
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>> I'm gone." >> Yeah. >> You know, >> so so I guess that's rebellion.
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>> Um, but no, there was nothing really naughty, Dom, unfortunately. >> Just sort of more strong willed.
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>> Oh, yeah. Very much strong willed. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, um, yeah, let's talk about Brian. So
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um the Papawi rugby club rooms at the age of 15. It was a dance there. >> Is that the first time you you sort of
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locked eyes? >> Did you know him before that or >> I did not know him but um my best friend
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and I used to rank the guys in Papa. So we we had a hit list. We'd seen him outside the record shop on a Thursday
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night. He was only number seven out of 10 unfortunately. However, uh at the dance Yes. He came up
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and asked me to dance. So that was it. He made it >> spite of being number seven.
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>> 1968 >> 69 >> 69 >> May the 1869 we met. Yeah. >> You're still together now. It's um
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what's been the key? What's been the key to um a success the success and the
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longevity in your marriage? >> Uh we're very different. >> He is very creative. Um
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yep. He he doesn't let me push him around. you know, we've had interesting career
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trajectories. He worked at E New Zealand for 48 hour 48 years. 48 hours. Um, he's
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now retired. He's very happy in retirement. Uh, cuz we're on a, you know, 20 acre property. So, he he sort
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of does things on the property and has, you know, re baby calves and stuff. Um, physically we always been really
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compatible and I think, you know, when you get to my age, people don't talk about that stuff, but it's hugely
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important. I think >> I think um >> What do you mean you still find him
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sexy? >> Yeah. >> Yep. Definitely. >> That's cool. >> Good on you for talking about that.
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>> Yeah. Well, I think it is really important cuz people sort of think you
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die from the neck down once you're 45, but you know, that ain't true. >> Um and I think for women especially
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today, it's really, you know, there's much more talk about menopause and
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postmenopause and things that happen. So, I think that's really important. But, yeah, physically, we've always been
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very attracted to each other. intellectually we're very different. Um he keeps me incredibly grounded. He um
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is a fabulous father uh and an amazing grandfather. Unfortunately, we lost our son in October last year, died very
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suddenly. So, it's when you go through something like that, you realize how important that relationship is.
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Um, and I think also, you know, once you get grandkids, that's a whole another
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realm in your life where you really nobody else other than their parents is ever going to care about them the way
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that you do, you know? So, so we've had that in common. Uh, he's indulged me
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when I decided I wanted to take up horse riding at the age of 43 and my horse spooked and I said, "Right,
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that's it. I'm giving up cuz I've fallen off." He said, "No, no, no. Don't give
00:14:37
it up. I'll take it up as well." So, he did. And we did that for, you know, a
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long, long time. We haven't He's had a hip replacement, so he's a bit nervous
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about getting back on the horse, but, you know, it's those things is we've
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we've always been able to >> have compatibility in terms of spending a lot of time together outside, you
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know, like outside our work careers where we've we spend 99% of our recreational time together.
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Thanks for that answer. That's um I don't know. This is the first time we've
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we've met. I feel like I know you though and I I wasn't sure what to expect with
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this podcast, but you've already been like more open and unguarded than what I
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was potentially anticipating. >> Um >> well, you see, I've lived a pure life.
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There's no real big secret. So, >> yeah. Um so, Brian went to um went to
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that dance. Um the quote that I heard is that he was determined to find a dependent wife. det
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He failed on that account, didn't he? >> Yeah, he did. He did. I look I Yeah,
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it's a very interesting dynamic. And you think, you know, like what his expectations were
00:15:45
in a relationship and then going into a marriage. Um, but he's always, you know,
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if id said to him, I want to have 10 kids, he would have said, right, well, we need to get a bigger house, but we'll
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work through it. As it was, we had one child and it, you know, I stayed home for six years and then said, look, I am
00:16:01
climbing the walls. I can't do this again. I've got to go back to work. Um,
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and he supported me every step of the way. So, >> um, yes. So, you left school at 15. Um,
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>> 16. >> 16. Married married Married at 19. Um, >> yes. >> Your son Jamie um he was born on your
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21st birthday. >> He was. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, so while while
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you were like raising this toddler at home, you were um working from home knitting for people.
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>> Yeah. I uh I thought I should continue to contribute wherever I could and uh so
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I bought a knitting machine and in those days you used to get a family benefit of
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$160 a week or whatever it was. >> Was that an okay sum of money back then?
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>> It sounds like a pittance. It was a pittance. It was it was a pathetic amount. I can't Yeah, it was around
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that. It was very very little, but it was enough to put buy this thing on higher purchase and um so I pushed the
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pram up to the shop like I don't know how many times to make sure I could was
00:17:05
fully proficient. And then my sister saw an ad for a boutique in town in the Strand Arcade and they were looking for
00:17:13
people to create garments from photos and magazines. So I um I did that for well J it must
00:17:23
have done done it for about three or four years >> and this guy was actually fabulously
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supportive and he'd bring me out all the wool and I'd think how the hell do I
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create this thing and I did it. So that was good in that it was it was additional money for the family which
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again cuz I was doing 10 garments a week or something it actually ended up being
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reasonably lucrative. >> You're not good at sitting still are you? But you're very busy.
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>> I am good at sitting still actually. Yeah, I am. I I'm either full on or I'm
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full stop. And when I stop, I stop. >> Like I've just had six weeks off and
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I've done bugger all. Look, my nails are still hanging in up there after 6 weeks.
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It's I've done nothing. Um, which has been great. >> What What does nothing mean?
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>> Well, we were away traveling. So I, you know, I've done no housework. I've done
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no >> reading or anything like normally, you know, reading hundreds of which I'm back
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into now, but 6 weeks I didn't do anything really >> except enjoy myself.
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>> Yeah. Oh, fantastic. It's welld deserved. You um I don't know if you
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want to um talk about this before. I I I wasn't sure if it was an area we' we'd
00:18:31
go to, but um you brought it up just before your son Jamie, who passed away um actually four months ago today.
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>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I um I didn't know him particularly well um but we worked for
00:18:42
the same company and we worked in different buildings so I had some dealings with him. Um what a lovely man.
00:18:48
He's really kind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's very very tough.
00:18:53
>> So he was Yeah. As I said before um your only child born on your 21st birthday.
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Um >> yeah. Do you do you feel like talking about that or not so much? >> Well,
00:19:05
>> is it too painful? It's still, you know, Dom, I'm only ever sort of 30 seconds
00:19:10
away from bursting into tears about it. But, uh, but as I said before, Brian and
00:19:15
I have, you know, tried to work through because when you have a sudden death like that under those circumstances and
00:19:22
it was horrendous, you've got all the logistics that you've got to deal with.
00:19:26
So, you've got police, you've got coroners, you've got, you know, and he
00:19:30
died suddenly in front of the children. So, the whole thing was horrendous. So, you know, given my personality and who I
00:19:39
am, I had to lead all of that that process. And we're still, you know, still haven't got
00:19:45
cause of death yet. Um, so there's a lot of it that you you get through the funeral and then you you
00:19:54
think, how am I going to deal with that? So, you know, those are still conversations
00:19:59
I need to have with myself. Um >> uh you know Jamie was a fabulous guy but he
00:20:09
had problems you will know that he had problems with alcohol previously. >> Um but he got himself together.
00:20:17
>> Uh he was a fabulous father to those children. >> Um and we certainly didn't expect that to
00:20:26
happen. I mean, he didn't get the best best of health and we'd been all been
00:20:30
out, you know, I spoke to him the Tuesday before he died on the Saturday. Had a long conversation with him about
00:20:36
about his son. Um, I think we'd gone out the week before cuz it was Indy's birthday and she'd
00:20:43
wanted to go to Pearl Garden, so we'd all gone to Pearl Garden. Um, and so yeah, I it's just how your grief unfolds
00:20:53
I think is different for everyone and and how you deal with that. But again, as I said at the outset, I don't know
00:21:00
how I would have coped without Brian. I don't I just don't know. And um >> and probably vice versa.
00:21:09
Yeah, I think more from a practical sense for me. I I think he's, you know, he he's glad that I took
00:21:21
control of all of that side of it because that's what I'm better at. So, I
00:21:25
think we both have played to each other's strengths. >> Man, it's a lot to go through.
00:21:32
>> It's the children that you think about more, you know, like >> how old are the kids now? Uh Indie will
00:21:37
be 14 in September and Alex is is eight. Uh he'll be nine in in April. Um yeah, I think Indy's, you know, she's
00:21:47
very they're both close to their father, but Indie was really close cuz as you
00:21:51
can imagine, he's brought her up with music and she's >> and we took her took her up to the the
00:21:57
cemetery a couple of weeks ago. She wanted to go up. we'd had a family ga gathering um and uh she said, "Oh, I I
00:22:05
want to talk to dad." And so we walked around the the cemetery and I I think
00:22:10
that's when Brian, you know, we moved away to give her the space to do that. But and she was just
00:22:17
talking to him, you could see. Um uh but that really broke Brian up, you know. I think it's just that's just one
00:22:24
example of of how it affects the kids. But it was beautiful that she had whole bunch of stuff she wanted to share with
00:22:30
them and she's very animated. So it in one in one sense it was a beautiful thing to say but to see but very very
00:22:37
hard very hard especially for Brian. >> Can you remember how you ended the last
00:22:44
conversation with Jamie? >> Yeah. Uh well we were we sort of reflected on on the lunch and and how
00:22:52
that had gone and then you know talking to him. Alex is is uh a very special guy
00:22:57
and we were just talking about him and and sharing he's he's um at a Montasauri
00:23:04
school in Onihunga and he's just you know he's on the lower end of the autism
00:23:09
spectrum but he's just gone from strength to strength. We were sort of talking about his um he's been fully
00:23:17
proficient in in uh in playing chess now and even says to his grandfather, "How
00:23:23
does it feel to be beaten by an 8-year-old?" So So it was that sort of conversation. So Jamie's incredibly
00:23:30
proud of the kids. >> Was he proud of his mom? >> Yeah, he was, I think. But he need, you
00:23:37
know, like he Yeah. I mean, he'd always Yeah. He >> he was he's interesting in that he he
00:23:46
would he would be circumspect about things like he didn't make a big deal about the Damehood, you know. I didn't
00:23:53
tell anyone. I didn't even tell Brian. I actually was overseas. I was in the
00:23:57
States. >> What What do you mean? So, you get a letter. You get a letter or a phone call
00:24:00
or >> you get an email. You get an email from DPMC and it's sort of it's still like
00:24:05
all you know this has to be approved by the king and you got to fill in all these things.
00:24:10
And um but this might happen. And it says then don't tell anyone, which I didn't. I thought, well, I'm not going
00:24:17
to tell anyone cuz >> you can trust Brian. >> Well, no, it wasn't that I didn't trust
00:24:21
him, but I actually knew I was going to be overseas on King's birthday weekend,
00:24:26
uh which is when they make the announcement. And I just thought if I tell him, you
00:24:33
know, then it's that it's cats out of the bag and he I know I know I knew what
00:24:37
he'd be like and it would be unbearable for 6 weeks it didn't happen. >> So I thought I just won't tell him and
00:24:44
so um Brian had to ring Jamie and tell him and when I talked to to Brian who said why didn't you tell me? Um
00:24:53
I said what did Jamie say? And he said, "Oh, oh god, is that right?" sort of
00:24:56
thing, you know, saying, "Yeah." And then he Jamie did ring me, so but yeah,
00:25:01
it's not Yeah. Yeah. No, he was >> didn't show it. Didn't show it.
00:25:04
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I know. Too late to ask him, but Yeah. >> You You're um You're holding it together
00:25:11
remarkably well. >> Well, there's still really fresh, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is very Yeah. And like I say,
00:25:18
there's still a couple of big conversations I need to have with myself, which I'm probably deliberately
00:25:24
postponing. And and so there was, you know, the immediate aftermath. Then we we'd already planned to go overseas.
00:25:30
That had been booked at midyear and we decided we would do that. So we, you know, we had that time together.
00:25:36
>> Um but yeah, look, >> you just have to work through it. Um, I've had Mark Graeme on the podcast, you
00:25:43
know, the famous rugby league player, and he lost um, one of his sons to the same sort of tragic circumstances.
00:25:49
>> And I asked him if he wanted to talk about it, and his his response was like,
00:25:52
"Not not really." He said, "I I try not to think about it cuz when I think about
00:25:56
it, it hurts." >> Yeah, it does hurt. >> Um, but I think it's also cathartic in some
00:26:04
ways. Yeah. What have you learned about grief that you didn't know already? >> Well, nothing prepares you for that.
00:26:18
>> Um, >> and you know, you expect your parents to go at some point and that that happened
00:26:24
and it's very very sad. >> Uh, you don't expect this sort of stuff
00:26:29
to happen, but you you know, Jamie is 51, so he wasn't a child. I think parents when they lose their kids or
00:26:39
even grandparents when they lose their grandkids when they are children I I don't know how people deal with that. I
00:26:44
honestly don't especially if it's unexpected but also the families that >> have to deal with you know not knowing
00:26:52
children develop you know cancer or shocking illnesses and they have to work through
00:26:57
>> months or years not knowing what the outcome's really going to be. So those
00:27:01
are the people I really really empathize with. Thanks for sharing this stuff. Yeah, I'm
00:27:08
really sorry that you guys had to go through this. >> Thank you. >> Um, should we get back onto your career?
00:27:16
So, you're 30 36 and >> No, I'm a bit older than 36. >> You're looking great. What are you? 73
00:27:25
72. >> 72. >> Yeah. 73 this year. >> Yes. >> You're looking You're looking fantastic.
00:27:31
How do you feel like like a >> really healthy? >> Yeah, cuz I I turned 53 um yesterday and
00:27:36
I was saying to someone, I feel exactly the same as what I did in my in my 20s, but it's like you look in the mirror and
00:27:41
catch a glimpse of yourself sometimes and you're like, holy when did this happen? How did this happen? You
00:27:46
feel good? >> Yeah, I'm incredibly lucky with my health. And I've always had, you know,
00:27:52
good health, lots of energy. Um I eat well. I've never smoked. I don't drink to excess having just
00:28:02
spent six weeks overseas when you know you tend to have a couple of glasses every night. Normally a regime would be
00:28:08
have a have half a bottle of wine or share a bottle of wine with Brian Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Uh I think
00:28:14
it's very easy to slip off that regime and especially when people are under stress.
00:28:18
>> So I think that's really important getting some sort of exercise. >> So you know whatever it is, it's just
00:28:25
making sure you're actually doing something and moving. I believe in use it or lose it. Yes. You know, so
00:28:32
>> um >> Well, that's that applies to brain and body, doesn't it?
00:28:35
>> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> But also in terms of, you know, when
00:28:38
you're functioning in the corporate environment, you you do want to make sure
00:28:44
you're looking as good as you possibly can as a woman. That's how I feel. I'm
00:28:48
not saying that is a generalization. Some people don't care. I do. So, I do everything that I can. You know, in my
00:28:56
books I've written about having facelifts. Um, you know, so >> have you you had work done? Jeez, you
00:29:03
you are an open book, aren't you? >> Well, I've that's not a revelation
00:29:07
today, Dom. So that's I've sh I've shared that that information before. I I actually this
00:29:15
well, it is a funny story, but my heart stopped in the the second facelift I was
00:29:21
having literally. So I got rushed to hospital um because somebody had injected something into a vein or
00:29:27
something and so >> so yeah. >> So there is a cautionary tale there.
00:29:31
>> So what do you get done? You you get Botox on a regular basis? >> Um yeah I do get Botox done. Yep.
00:29:38
>> Yeah. If it makes you feel good. >> Why not? >> Exactly. >> Um yeah, you rudely interrupted me
00:29:47
before I was going somewhere. you you're 36 and not not today, but when you were
00:29:51
36, you um decided to to get an MBA. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Why so >> um
00:30:01
>> you had a good career, right? You >> I had a good career, but I tell you
00:30:04
what, when you start getting promoter characterized by getting promotions, like I wasn't applying for jobs, people
00:30:10
say, "Oh, do this, do this, do this." I did apply for the radio eye job but when
00:30:16
you get um as before that just going through the ranks I just felt like I've
00:30:22
got not one tertiary qualification didn't even do UEI I'm a fraud people will discover one day that I am
00:30:30
really useless you know and so not going to university was always in the back of my mind and
00:30:39
then I heard about MBA which was relative ly new in those days and I thought that would be exactly what I
00:30:46
need and that it's totally relevant to what I'm doing but I thought there was no way cuz I
00:30:52
hadn't done UEIE so I didn't think I'd be able to get into the course we were
00:30:56
Jamie was going to Kings so we couldn't have afforded for me to to pay the fees
00:31:01
for an MBA and also you need a hell of a lot of indulgence from your employer because you got to go to lectures and so
00:31:08
forth and you know workshops studies and so forth so quite a a lot of time off. But it was quite funny because I said to
00:31:15
Brian, I'd really like to do this. Um, and so I got in touch with the university or the or the business school
00:31:22
at Oakland University and I said, "Look, I haven't I haven't got UEIE. Does that
00:31:27
rule me out?" And they said, "No, no, no. You can do a GMAT test." So then I
00:31:32
went to my employer and said, "This is um, you know, what I'm planning to do."
00:31:36
And they said, "I will pay you fees." It was it was as easy as that and um we'll give you all the time off
00:31:46
you need. So it was like the hurdles and that's the thing. You think something's right
00:31:53
up there but actually they just fell away and then it was oh my god this is actually going to happen. I did the GMAT
00:31:59
test pass that and got in. >> Sounds like it was really hard work. So Jamie was 15 at the time. He'd do the
00:32:05
family grocery shopping. You were getting up at 3:00 a.m. to to study Monday to Friday.
00:32:10
>> Yep. >> It's the only way you can get through. >> Yeah.
00:32:13
>> Uh and what hard work, but oh god, I enjoyed it. And it was sort of like
00:32:19
everybody else around me paid the price because, you know, I could didn't cook. I didn't
00:32:26
do anything other than go to work and do the MBA. That's all I did for two years.
00:32:31
So, >> so I had a fabulous time. I just loved being in the lecture theater. I loved
00:32:37
everything I learned. It was all totally relevant to what I was doing. Just Yeah,
00:32:43
it was brilliant. >> And and in hindsight, looking back, did did you need it?
00:32:47
>> Yes. Well, >> did you need it for like for your own >> I didn't needed it for myself, but I
00:32:52
also think because they were rel now they're, you know, much more prevalent,
00:32:56
but in those days they were relatively rare. It was right at the beginning of when they started to come on. Uh and so
00:33:03
it was a major differentiator. >> So you know having that on my CV definitely helped.
00:33:10
>> Yeah. What you were talking about before um like the catalyst to to get into
00:33:14
study and get an MBA. Um yeah. Are you familiar with the term imposter syndrome?
00:33:18
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And that's what it was. >> Right.
00:33:20
>> Yeah. >> Right. So I've had some other um people on the podcast. Jason Paris from one NZ
00:33:25
and also Miles Harl from Fonta. Um >> they're both uneducated as well. And I
00:33:30
Yeah. They both have that sort of even to this day in their high high-profile positions still have that sort of chirp
00:33:35
on the shoulder, you know, about not being not It's It's a funny thing, isn't
00:33:39
it? It sticks with you. >> It does stick with you and it and like it's not a nec It's not necessarily a
00:33:46
bad thing because I'm never going to be the smartest person in the room ever. Uh
00:33:51
I want to >> You are in this room like Look, you've got Kanye down there.
00:33:57
Um, no. I I think you know what I know more than anything else is the minute you become arrogant, you lose it. You
00:34:05
lose all the all the power and the control you have for maximizing outcomes. And I think knowing that
00:34:15
you've got other people around you and enjoying the fact that other people around you have different and greater
00:34:20
skills means that you can then collectively get to the best decision which is what being
00:34:26
part of an executive leadership team is if you're a CEO or being part of a board
00:34:31
of directors. That's what you have to have. >> Yeah. So I think a bit of humility if
00:34:36
the imposttor syndrome gives you a bit of personal deep look you know I really shouldn't be here but by Christ I'm
00:34:42
going to do my best to make make sure I give the best that I can is not a negative thing at all I don't think so
00:34:50
>> after getting that degree degree was that when the radio career of Joan River
00:34:55
Joan withers started >> um yeah I was in the last semester of the degree um And it's a funny story
00:35:04
because I was working I was working for INL. I was working at the Oakland Star. You you're too young to remember the
00:35:09
Oakland Star. >> It was the evening newspaper. >> It was >> I vaguely remember.
00:35:12
>> And so part of one of the um financial management papers we had to do was about
00:35:17
net present value which is you know about valuing a company or valuing the cash flows of a company. And we all had
00:35:24
to buy these um little Huelet Packard special computers that you've fed in the
00:35:31
the future the cash flows that were expected. And when I put in the Oakland Stars, it came up with an error message
00:35:37
across the top. So I guess I thought not good. And you could see what was happening globally with afternoon
00:35:44
newspapers. So I um I literally opened the the um the Herald. You know, remember they used to have the big
00:35:53
display ads and there was an ad there for radio. They called it chief executive but it was only I mean 35
00:35:59
people 5 million turnover or something and I got that job. So when I got the job I went back to INL and said look
00:36:06
I'll repay the fees but they said no look it was really part of your remuneration cuz they put me through the
00:36:11
MBA. So I had to switch in in in the those days the executive MBA you had to do a project. So rather than doing it on
00:36:20
afternoon newspapers, I was in in the seat and doing it on um repositioning a radio station in a deregulated market.
00:36:30
So I did it on I98 FM. >> Yes. So I98 not a not a particularly good station. And then you you took it
00:36:37
to number one in the ratings. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So you put um made some bold
00:36:40
moves, put Kerry Smith on Breakfast. >> She would she would have been famous
00:36:44
from Gloss at that point. >> Yes. >> And um Pete Sinclair at nights love
00:36:48
songs. That was a genius joke. >> Iconic. >> We had the biggest audience of 19 year
00:36:53
olds and it wasn't really targeting 19 year olds. So it was Yeah. No, it's very
00:36:57
it was they were heady days. They really were. >> Um very interesting times and and it was
00:37:03
not only the highest rating station. It was the most profitable radio station in
00:37:07
Oakland. I think 3ZB and Christ Church was most profitable nationally, but certainly in Oakland it was the most
00:37:13
profitable. >> There's a lot of um a lot of big egos. A lot of big egos. A lot of big
00:37:17
personalities in radio. How did you um yeah how did you find that? >> Really interesting. Um the culture
00:37:24
between newspapers and radio was so different. I mean in newspapers people are actually quite differential when you
00:37:30
become a senior leader. In radio knee and so um there's a uh John Taylor was a
00:37:38
program director who came along. I knew nothing about radio. Um, John Taylor was
00:37:43
brought in as program director at the same time I went in um running the station and John said to me, "I know
00:37:52
nothing about business. You know nothing about radio. Let's teach each other." And that that was
00:37:59
exactly it. And one of to your point about egos, he said to me, "There's such
00:38:04
a thing as an ego talent ratio. If they got a huge amount of talent, then they're entitled to an ego." And I
00:38:10
thought that was the truest thing I'd ever heard. >> You know, if you're a Paul Holmes, you
00:38:14
could or Kerry Smith or whoever, you're entitled to have an ego, but um there
00:38:20
were others who maybe not quite so much. >> I sort of found in my experience of
00:38:24
often the case is the the bigger someone is, the less of an ego they have. Like I
00:38:28
had the privilege of working with um in the same building with um Blackie Kevin Black for a while. Um one of the most
00:38:33
talented radio broadcasters in New Zealand history and no ego on the man at all.
00:38:37
>> Just a beautiful human. Yeah. Um yeah you um how do you prefer how did you prepare for difficult conversations
00:38:46
like if you had to let someone go or that's something that be is never easy and you do like you know you you learn
00:38:57
through um doing courses like an MBA there's obviously you have a specific human resources paper that you do but I
00:39:06
think uh The most important thing is understanding and having empathy with the individual situation. So I think
00:39:16
being prepared to front it yourself, you know, if there are um difficult conversations to be had,
00:39:23
not delegating it in appropriately, making sure that you put as much support around people as you possibly can
00:39:30
>> and try and make make the exit something that ends up being as positive as it
00:39:35
possibly can be for the individuals. And look, I was at at the Oakland Star before I left. Um, we had an advertising
00:39:43
department uh of about 60 odd people. And um they had, you know, we were all given an instruction. We had to reduce
00:39:54
headcount significantly. Advertising had to use 30 people. The redundancy packages were so generous that in fact
00:40:01
when we went around and talked to people and I'd got the person who was the union
00:40:07
representative to come around with me, the people who who were staying were the ones in tears because they'd already
00:40:13
spent their redundancy money which they now were not getting. So it can work in many different ways. People can use it
00:40:20
as a catalyst to go on and do something bigger and better and different. And I think you know that's quite a few years
00:40:26
ago now. If you look now, people are much more flexible in their approach to working and and don't have any
00:40:32
expectation they're going to work for a company for 10, 15, 20 years. And I think that's a good thing.
00:40:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, after the success of Radio, you get the job of um CEO of the
00:40:43
radio network. >> Yeah. I got >> You see how that came about? That's now
00:40:48
NZME, right? >> Yes. It's part of NZ NZ me. I got headunted by Nigel Milan. You might do
00:40:54
you remember that name? He was the >> Yeah, I do. The bow tie guy. >> The bow tie guy. So he was he was CEO of
00:41:00
the entire Radio New Zealand empire and uh I was approached by a head hunter to go and have a chat with Nigel which I
00:41:09
did and he pulled me into to um run a subsidiary initially um which we turned into the radio bureau
00:41:18
which I think is still in existence and then he appointed me to COO which was effectively his deputy but responsible
00:41:25
for all of the the revenue side of the um commercial operations and then the government put the said they were going
00:41:34
to sell the commercial station. So he said Sanara and went to work for ARN in Australia cuz they were intending to put
00:41:41
a bid in and I was down in Wellington doing something and Nigel rang me up and said you got to meet me at the
00:41:49
Intercontinental. Went there and he said I've resigned. The board's going to appoint you CEO.
00:41:55
This is what's going to happen. So like that I was I was there. So big job >> the crown took it through the sale well
00:42:03
yeah I led it through the sale process. Brand new CEO you know like unbelievable situation really. um very
00:42:14
very supportive investment bankers who facilitated that sale for the crown who you know I still I'll remember how much
00:42:23
support they gave me to this day um and it was a very successful sale process I think they expected to get around the 60
00:42:30
million they got 89 million for it so I stayed with the new owners for a couple of years
00:42:37
Riley's um Empire one of the major shareholders in ARN And then um yeah that was that that
00:42:46
became the radio that was the radio network post the sale. >> Wow. How do you feel about radio radio
00:42:51
now in the future of radio? Yeah. Do you >> I always love you look I listen to ZB
00:42:56
every morning like you know if I'm in the house I've got Mike on. I love
00:43:01
Heather Dupy Allen. I just >> she's terrifi I wouldn't want to be interviewed by her. I love listening but
00:43:07
I wouldn't want to be a guest on her show. She's terrifying. She's she's so
00:43:11
good. today. >> She's incredibly >> She's phenomenal. >> But I think she's fair, you know. I
00:43:15
think I I think they're both superb broadcasters and I think the caliber of radio, having listened to a bit of it in
00:43:21
Australia because I'm over there regularly, but the caliber of radio in New Zealand is
00:43:26
superb. >> Is it a is it a sunset industry? Well, you'd have to if you look at the the
00:43:32
figures in terms of share of advertising spend, obviously with digital now, it's
00:43:36
it's a smaller percentage, but it's held, you know, it's not been not been
00:43:41
like TV or radio where it's sort of fallen off a cliff almost. Um, it's sort
00:43:46
of held around the 10 or 11 or 12% over a number of years. It might be lower than that now, seven or eight, I don't
00:43:51
know what, but it's um, yeah, I think it's a great medium. M it's always been um very good at um pivoting
00:44:02
and and evolving and facing whatever challenges you come its way like like from um the beginning the in the
00:44:09
invention of TV um you know iPods whatever challenges have have come up it's always found a way to sort of um
00:44:15
yeah carry on. Yeah. Yeah. So, it'll be an interesting future, right? >> I think so. But, you know, I was talking
00:44:21
to someone this morning actually about the importance of content. And I think that's a thing I've always been a
00:44:28
believer that it's um you need to be platform agnostic and it's really about
00:44:33
great content and obviously people are accessing news, information, and entertainment in really different ways
00:44:40
now. And that's fabulous people. But there are still loads of people watching
00:44:44
TV. There's still loads of people who look at a digital edition of a newspaper
00:44:48
like I do every morning. You know, you can get I don't it's not the website,
00:44:52
but you can get the digital edition of the newspaper on your iPads. And I like that because you can see how the sub
00:44:58
editors have laid out the stories, what where the prominence is, particularly in
00:45:03
business, in the business section. So, and you know, podcasts, fabulous ways of accessing a whole bunch
00:45:12
of stuff now. Yeah, one thing I love about like this podcast, just the long form interview.
00:45:18
It's like um it allows people to like elaborate in a in an unhurrieded sort of
00:45:22
way. Um yeah, I remember the first the first episode I did it was on my dining room table at home. Um and being from
00:45:28
music radio background, I've been chatting for like 10 minutes to Mitch James, the singer, and I was like, "Fuck
00:45:33
me, we've been going for 10 minutes." Um but you can quite easily chat to someone
00:45:37
for a couple of hours. >> Um yeah, there's a lot to unpack with someone's life. I love it. I love the
00:45:41
medium. Do you do you listen to many podcasts? What do you >> Not a lot. No.
00:45:44
>> You'd been to business ones, wouldn't you? >> Yeah. Business ones I listen to. Um but
00:45:50
again, you know, like if I'm driving into town, I'm more often than not going
00:45:55
in early in the morning, so I'm listening to the to the radio. >> Another big role you had um post radio
00:46:02
was um the Fairfax CEO 2005 2009. Um best and worst moments in that role. I didn't really have any worse moments.
00:46:11
Really? >> No, no, that was um Yeah, that was a dream actually. It was cuz I was on the board of Fairfax in
00:46:20
Australia and they'd appoint when they bought the INL assets, they they placed
00:46:25
one of their Australian execs in as a CEO in New Zealand. Uh and he wanted to come back. They thought they had an
00:46:32
internal succession plan. That didn't work out. So Fred Helmer, who was the uh
00:46:37
group CEO at the time, said, "Would you take it on for a fixed term, you know,
00:46:43
get a robust succession plan, which hadn't obviously happened." Um, so yeah,
00:46:49
and again, that was Oh, I loved it. >> Yeah. >> And you were you you you were there and
00:46:54
you were part of the team that um purchased TradeMe. >> Yeah. I mean, David cuz Fred Helmer was
00:47:00
replaced by David Kirk. So David came on and in his inimitable way could see the
00:47:05
way it was going. So he he led that charge. There were no investment bankers involved in that transaction. It was
00:47:13
quite amazing. >> Um but I got to ring Sam Morgan. I was the first one to make the approach. And
00:47:19
he said, "I'm sick of wankers with fat fat check books ringing me up asking me
00:47:24
to sell my business." But I don't think he understood at that point. And he
00:47:28
obviously met and you know the deal was done. I remember that that announcement that was some funny stories with that. I
00:47:35
don't think he understood at that point how serious David was um until he met him and then the
00:47:43
purchase price which everyone of course threw up their hands in horror which I think ended up you know went within 18
00:47:50
months it was sort of less than 10 times e or something. So >> 700 million, right?
00:47:54
>> 700 million with an earn out of 50 if and which they got because they that was
00:47:59
sort of over a period of 2 or 3 years I think. >> That's an eye watering sum of money even
00:48:03
now. But um yeah, what year was this? 2006. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Yes. That's like 19 years ago.
00:48:09
That's a crazy sum of money. So um yeah, that that quote from Sam Morgan, that's
00:48:13
a great one. What sort of um office had he had previously? I'm guessing nowhere
00:48:17
in that sort of vicinity. I don't I have no idea what the quantum was before, but
00:48:20
he'd had obviously lots of approaches. >> Why did Why did you guys see see it
00:48:25
being a $700 million company that was worthwhile purchase? >> I think, you know, I'd give all credit
00:48:31
to David. He could say see the way, you know, the migration of classifides out of of newspapers was already happening,
00:48:39
but that was only going to accelerate. So the rivers of gold was what we used to call, you know, the classifides in
00:48:47
the newspapers. And we were getting the comparison is we were getting $11 a column centimeter for employment ads. We
00:48:53
were getting $4 a column centimeter for real estate. So once that you know that market went and and the real estate
00:49:00
started to go um you could see what the potential was for, you know, the cars um as well. you could see the potential
00:49:12
for the business or he could see the potential for the business. >> What what what did that negotiation
00:49:17
process look like? >> Um just David and um the CFO at the time and I think the general counsel was in
00:49:28
the background negotiating and >> coming up. What was the opening bit? >> I have no idea.
00:49:34
>> Wow. And what what's um what was David Kirk like to work with or work for? best
00:49:39
leader I've ever worked for. Yeah. >> Why? What made him so good? >> Uh because he demanded accountability,
00:49:46
but he was absolutely non-political and without fear or favor. So, you know, when I'm dealing with
00:49:54
chief executives or um or senior people about performance reviews and we're setting up KPIs,
00:50:05
I've still, you know, there are probably appropriately a lot less complex now
00:50:11
than they were. But as CEO of a New Zealand business, she had the set of criteria which is not only about eBar
00:50:18
and bottom line and stuff but also readership circulation, you know, all so sustainable things cuz it's actually
00:50:26
relatively easy to pull a lever in any given year and maximize your profit. But so they were very carefully calibrated
00:50:34
um performance criteria set up each year and that's what you sat down and you had
00:50:40
the conversation at the half year. How are you going? How are you going? How you going? And at the end of the year,
00:50:44
that's that was it. So, like there was no no politics involved. This is this is
00:50:50
what's expected of you. He was incredibly supportive. You know, I'd speak to him probably once or twice a
00:50:56
week. I was part of the wider the Australasian leadership team, so I'd go over there on a regular basis. He just
00:51:02
knew how to he knew how to get the best out of people. >> So, the NZU is in good hands,
00:51:10
>> I think. So yeah. Yeah. Well, oh um yeah. In August 2007, it was announced
00:51:16
that Fairfax would have to lay off 500 staff in Australia and New Zealand, but I think more in New Zealand than
00:51:21
Australia. Like as a leader, how do you work through something as challenging as
00:51:25
that? >> Yeah, it's a conversation I had with you before is that it's very difficult. But
00:51:32
and I think the interesting thing too in that situation um with unions involved and Andrew
00:51:39
Little was actually the head of the union at that stage. >> If they can understand this these are
00:51:45
there are genuine reasons for these cuts to have to happen. >> And if you can get them to work
00:51:51
alongside you and at least not be sabotaging what you're trying to do, I think that's a big start. And then it's
00:51:58
all of the things that I talked about before. You've got to pay appropriate redundancy packages and some of them are
00:52:04
contractual. Sometimes you might you you know make additional allowances putting
00:52:10
in support like getting CVs done placement outplacement all of that stuff offering EAP support. M
00:52:20
>> um but I and also making sure that whatever the structure is that remains will
00:52:29
actually work cuz I think we've seen quite a few examples of that over the years of where a whole bunch of people
00:52:36
get made redundant and then they have to start back filling again quite quickly cuz it just you know starts falling
00:52:41
apart. >> Yeah. Do it once, do it right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, another thing that was going
00:52:47
on for you personally during um your time at Fairfax, um, the the Feltech stuff from um, yeah, how how are you
00:52:56
able to focus on on on Fairfax and doing a great job there when you've got this
00:52:59
this bubbling in the background? >> I'd left the Felt I'd left the Felt
00:53:04
board. I left all of the boards I was on when I went back into Fairfax except Oakland airport and Fred had actually
00:53:11
said to me, "Keep one board cuz it's good to have your head out of the business." and and that that was a good
00:53:16
piece of advice. Um I was very lucky to be in Fairfax, I think, cuz you know the
00:53:22
Feltics thing to me it was devastating. It was devastating for 20 years. Um but having the distraction of Fairfax, I'd
00:53:30
get to work in the morning. I >> distraction. That's funny. >> Well, no, it is. It's just like you
00:53:34
don't have time to think about anything else when you're running a major company
00:53:37
like that, >> you know? It's like, >> so I'd get there at 6:00 or 6:30 in the
00:53:44
morning and I'd leave at 6:00 at night. I'd look at the clock at 2:00 and think,
00:53:48
"Oh my god, is it that time already?" Cuz you you really want another four
00:53:53
hours in your day. There's so much happening. >> So I I think that was Yeah, I'm I'm very
00:53:59
glad I had that at that time. >> Yes. So So the Felix thing for anyone that that doesn't doesn't know what
00:54:04
we're talking about. Yeah. How how do you explain it or how do you describe it
00:54:07
in a couple of sentences? Um, Feltex was a company which listed on the stock exchange
00:54:14
and in a short period of time started encountering difficulties and when you list on the stock exchange is not the
00:54:22
case now they've changed the rules but in those days you had to put out what's
00:54:26
called a PFI which is prospective financial information for an 18month period and those are the goals that
00:54:33
investors expect you to meet and that's the basis on which they invest. Nothing's obviously,
00:54:39
you know, you can never guarantee those outcomes, but that's the expectation.
00:54:43
Um, Feltx didn't make its forecasts. M >> so uh when that became apparent massive
00:54:51
drop in the share price um and then uh you know um class litigation funders came in involved and so there was an
00:55:05
ongoing court case so which had the directors in the frame. >> So yes so there there was a time there
00:55:12
where there was even like a risk of like prosecution right? Uh I was never because I'd left the board by the stage
00:55:19
that the um the there was an action taken I think by the predecessor of Indi um against the directors who were there
00:55:30
at the time and this was about categorization of debt so highly esoteric but whether whether the debt
00:55:38
was current or non-current which is an important delineation in the balance sheet of any company and the directors
00:55:47
had got advice from um one of the big five accountancy firms. Um reinforcing that how they'd categorize the debt was
00:55:57
correct. >> Um there was a difference of opinion and they were actually facing criminal
00:56:03
action at one point which was would have been horrendous. They were totally exonerated.
00:56:09
>> Yeah. >> On that. So but I wasn't part of that. I was part of the class action which
00:56:15
eventually failed. >> What What's it like um being in the being part of the news cycle for
00:56:20
something like this? >> Well, it was interesting going into to Fairfax. So, I had um you know,
00:56:27
obviously I said proactively to the reporters, you treat me like you treat anyone else. It makes no difference that
00:56:34
I'm chief executive of this company. And they did. Yeah. It's hideous. you wake
00:56:40
up in the morning and you're dreading what you might read. But um it's another
00:56:44
thing you just have to put your head down and live through. And it has made me a much better director.
00:56:50
>> You know, I I guess the ultimate vindication was I was asked by the national government to to lead uh Mighty
00:56:57
River Power now Mercury through the first of the MOM processes. And I think some of that was because they trusted me
00:57:04
and they knew that doing a listing I'd learned all the, you know, the the hard
00:57:10
way what can go wrong and what you have to do. And fortunately, that was incredibly successful.
00:57:16
>> Yeah. There there's that theory that you learn um more from your losses than than
00:57:21
your wins. You you'd agree with that? I think most directors who sit around a
00:57:25
table want people next to them who have got some scars on their backs >> because if you never had it go wrong,
00:57:31
you know, I used to think I work so hard. I read everything. Um, you know, I'm a really good director. I know what
00:57:37
I'm doing. Nothing can ever go wrong. Well, that's just so so wide in the mark. Can happen,
00:57:45
>> you know, for a variety of reasons. H >> how was your mental health during that
00:57:50
period? Um, I probably came when it first hit, I it it affected me massively. And
00:58:01
again, if so, anybody wants to go and find my book, I actually put did a whole chapter on the Felteex experience. And
00:58:08
it was so bad. I I I've heard about this since, but I I couldn't, you know, I have vitamin pills and stuff
00:58:15
in the morning. I couldn't swallow the vitamin pills. like it was just and I wasn't eating so I lost a huge
00:58:23
amount of weight and I remember Brian used to get up and try and feed me so he knows the thing I love most in the world
00:58:29
which I never indulge myself with is musli with cream on it and he'd try and
00:58:33
tempt me with that in the morning to get me to you know it was it was pretty bad
00:58:39
but he again you know you got someone like if I hadn't had him god knows what
00:58:43
would have happened >> yeah what what toll did it take on them the family Um
00:58:50
Brian was stoic and I think because he's not involved in business he probably
00:58:58
you know he he could read the the newspapers and stuff but um but it was good he was removed and probably didn't
00:59:07
really >> he he understood enough about what was happening to me but maybe didn't
00:59:12
understand all the implications of it which is probably a good thing >> if Um, yeah, professionally that that's
00:59:18
the most challenging chapter of your life, right? >> Totally. >> By far by a long way. If someone told
00:59:23
you when you were going through that that you'd eventually become a dame and
00:59:26
be inducted into the New Zealand Business Hall of Fame, would you have could you have believed them at the
00:59:29
time? >> I would have been happy just knowing I survived. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, not only survived, but
00:59:35
thrived, right? Um, I've been incredibly I've been incredibly lucky and I you know people
00:59:44
who put trust in me when they could have >> not done that and I'm incredibly
00:59:50
grateful for that. >> Yeah. So all the board stuff like what does it mean exactly and what works involved
01:00:00
>> being a director? What the work involved? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um
01:00:04
>> like h how can you be on so many at one time? >> Well, I'm not on a lot. I'm only on
01:00:09
three now and I sort of on four. >> That sounds that's a lot by most people.
01:00:14
>> And it like it it that is a big workload I think especially with the chairmanship
01:00:18
is probably the equivalent of three or four directorships I think. Um so what's involved? You really have to
01:00:27
understand the business. You have to understand the industry. So you have to you know and have an have an interest in
01:00:33
the business and the industry if you you know I could not go and work on the board of a baked bean factory or you
01:00:39
know and for me it's got to matter for New Zealand. >> Why why couldn't you why couldn't you
01:00:44
work on the board of a baked bean factory? cuz it wouldn't have any interest and I wouldn't I wouldn't think
01:00:48
I was delivering any value >> right >> for the country or >> you know just wouldn't yeah it wouldn't
01:00:57
light my fire but there's a lot I don't know whether people who aspire to be
01:01:01
directors um understand just how much reading is involved >> so you know this time of year we're doing
01:01:11
halfearly accounts for a lot of companies So in August normally it's year end
01:01:17
accounts that are being finalized. That's extraordinary. Like I've got origin next week. There's about 333
01:01:25
pages just for the audit pack. And it's not like light reading. You have to actually read every single word of it
01:01:31
and check the numbers and do all that stuff. So you go into a meeting if you've done all that you think good I'm
01:01:37
on top of everything. And then it's the quality of the discussion and having
01:01:42
people who can um one elicit the right information from management. So making sure you are
01:01:50
asking the right questions but asking them in a way that doesn't alienate the
01:01:53
executive team but two then the discussion between the directors. So so there's there's
01:02:02
there's a um a synergy benefit in having input from variety of people. Often I'll
01:02:08
go in and think, "God, that's interesting that, you know, there's a
01:02:12
particular decision has to be made. I wonder what so and so will think about this." I might have a view, but I'm also
01:02:18
conscious that that view could change with somebody who's more experienced in
01:02:22
that particular area or has, you know, a better perspective on it, may have a different point of view. And I think
01:02:29
that's the behavioral elements of corporate governance are the most important thing
01:02:36
to me. Um because unless you've got that dynamic working, you won't get the best
01:02:40
decisions, you'll get some people who will try and close it now. Oh, that'll
01:02:44
never work. Now, that to me makes the hair on the back of my neck stand out because it just closes people down. And
01:02:51
you know, especially as chair, you've got to elicit all of the wisdom that is
01:02:55
around the table. So, there's a lot involved in it. you really have to um like being in a room
01:03:02
for, you know, sometimes eight, nine hours, which is it's pretty intense. Um
01:03:10
but there's, you know, it's very rewarding when things are going well. >> Yeah. If if things are going well at a
01:03:17
company, um you've been involved with warehouse, which has had some um retail
01:03:20
challenges in in recent years. Um yeah. Is is it fun when it's going well? Oh, look. It's a ball when it's going
01:03:28
well. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Does that make it easier? >> I suppose.
01:03:31
>> Um, it makes it more enjoyable. You still you've still got this the work.
01:03:35
You've still got to do the work and you can't be complacent because, you know,
01:03:39
most businesses in New Zealand are in incredibly competitive environments quite apart from the u economic
01:03:47
conditions that we've all lived through for the last five or six years. So, um,
01:03:52
yeah, if it's if it's going well, that's it is, you know, it's fun, but you've
01:03:57
still got to do the work. When it's going badly, it's a grind. >> Do they pay well?
01:04:05
>> Do they pay well? Pay is comparative, isn't it? you know like um on the big boards
01:04:16
it's better compared with Australia it's not good >> but having said that you know Treasury
01:04:26
have probably got a database of I don't know 2,000 3,000 people dying to be a
01:04:31
director on a crown board so there's no shortage of aspirants to do to do governance jobs the top directors and
01:04:40
obviously in the last 5 years or six 10 years maybe there's been more of a move
01:04:46
to get women at 50/50 representation. So uh the women who are who are highly sought after
01:04:57
um have got the opportunity to have quite a good portfolio as are the the more senior men
01:05:05
>> who are still operating. At this stage of of your life, you're not doing it for the money anyway, are
01:05:10
you? >> No. But I don't think anybody wants to feel exploited either. And I think the
01:05:15
thing that really interests me is if somebody in IODD should do this analysis is what is the
01:05:23
>> what's the wedge like between CEO remuneration and director remuneration
01:05:29
because most boards now you know if it's been tough economically and the results
01:05:34
haven't been stellar they say no we won't put through it we won't ask
01:05:38
shareholders for a fee increase this year we won't do it this year we won't
01:05:41
do it this year whereas Almost without exception, CEOs and executive teams tend to get
01:05:49
incremental increases each year almost without exception. >> And they also have at risk pay. So
01:05:57
short-term incentives, long-term incentives. >> So it'll be interesting to see what
01:06:01
happen because my perception is there's there's a growing gap between what
01:06:07
directors get and what what executive get. M Are there any um company boards that you haven't been on that you'd love
01:06:14
to sink your teeth into? >> Oh, it's a bit late in the day for me now. Um
01:06:21
>> is that why why do you why do you think >> I think you still got you've got so much
01:06:24
to offer, right? >> Uh that's very kind of you to say. Yeah. I think >> I'm really interested in um things that
01:06:34
matter for New Zealand. So, uh, I'd never say never. I'd never say never, but yeah, it'd have
01:06:43
to be something pretty interesting to drag me in again. Now, >> are you ever going to fully retire?
01:06:52
>> Um, am I ever going to fully retire? No, I think I'll always have something that
01:06:57
I'm working on. >> Um, yeah. What personal qualities have made you great at it?
01:07:04
>> Great at what? being a being a a director. >> Um, I wouldn't say I'm great at it.
01:07:10
Look, I'd say >> Oh, come on. You don't You're being very very modest, by the way.
01:07:13
>> No, I'm not. >> You You You don't >> I've had highs and I've had lows. I
01:07:17
think >> I've got a lot of experience now. >> I think the MBA helped enormously. I
01:07:24
think I've got really good >> judgment of people. I think that really helps. And I think I've got an okay EQ.
01:07:37
Um, and good at tough conversations. >> Yeah, I think it's ongoing conversations
01:07:43
though, Dom. I think, you know, if you're dealing with people on an ongoing basis, if the rubber does meet the road,
01:07:49
then you've got a base there of trust and respect. Hopefully, that that helps.
01:07:56
>> Um, yeah. What sort of feedback do you get from people? Are people intimidated
01:07:59
by you? >> Some people say that, which I can I >> Do you like that? No, I don't.
01:08:05
>> I think it's ridiculous. No, I I no, you know, and I think um you know, a couple of people made
01:08:15
contact since the announcement about A&Z, a couple of the staff, and it's
01:08:18
really interesting because they know I do interrogate because I've read everything and but they
01:08:28
and they're being kind and it's only a couple, but but they point to things
01:08:31
like that that's made me sharper and more focused and thinking about things.
01:08:36
And when I think about going back to David Kirk, one of the things I learned from him is we prepare as an exec team
01:08:43
in New Zealand up the bloody yin-yang, you know, with a presentation. This is and it was all going, you know, it was
01:08:48
going fabulously and this is what we're going to do and all the rest of it. And he would walk in
01:08:54
um with the CFO and they'd be incredibly supportive, but they come out and say,
01:08:59
"Well, what about this?" And it was something we hadn't thought about. And
01:09:03
when they leave the building, we'd say, "Bugger. Why, you know, how do we miss
01:09:08
that? Why didn't we get that? And I So, as a director, you can do that in a constructive and positive way that pe
01:09:18
helps people to focus and strive on how can I make this the best it can possibly
01:09:23
be because that's what we're all charged with doing on behalf of >> shareholders or whoever the owners are.
01:09:28
Um, then you know that that's you feel good about that. >> Mhm. got all the all the reading you
01:09:37
have to do. How do you retain all that information? >> Really good question. Really good
01:09:43
question. So, um yeah, Cameron O'Reilly, as I said, was was a um the shareholder representative
01:09:55
at the radio network, and he'd arrived. Have you ever seen him? >> No.
01:10:00
>> Okay. So, he's Tony O'Reilly's son. Stunning guy. like stunning.
01:10:06
Um, and he would come in and he would have this big exercise book and he'd write notes
01:10:17
and then he come to the next meeting and he'd say in a charming way and he's stunning looking
01:10:23
guy as well, um, okay, you said you were going to do that. Has that happened? you know not
01:10:32
you know again constructively I thought that's really impressive so I when I'm
01:10:38
reading because like now I think the quantum of pageionation for directors has got bigger and bigger that's my
01:10:44
impression so I used to take notes and highlight so we all use um uh a platform called called diligent
01:10:56
which is where your board papers get served up and you can highlight write it and annotate on it, which most people
01:11:03
do. And I also used to make notes about things that I wanted to, you know, that that were the most
01:11:09
important things for me. So I had some sort of context about um priorities. Um I've stopped doing that now and I
01:11:18
dictated my thoughts into into my um phone on the notes >> package and that way it's there. I get
01:11:29
printed off and it's a record. So, I have got I have got it there. Otherwise,
01:11:34
you get to the end of 333 pages and think, "Hell, what have I read?" And a
01:11:38
week down the track when you actually front up to the meeting, hell, what was that about?
01:11:43
>> Is there um Yeah. Have have you ever bluffed it? You know, just like um you
01:11:49
know, just I don't know, skimmed through the document and No, you've never never
01:11:53
mailed it in. M >> it's so easy. >> Do you think some board members have in
01:12:00
various boards you've been on? >> Yeah. >> It's a lot of Yeah, it's a lot. It's a
01:12:06
lot of work and a lot of responsibility. >> Yeah, it is. But you're getting paid for
01:12:10
that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And look, everybody has a different style and everybody brings a
01:12:16
different thing. So just because I'm a nerdy SWAT doesn't mean I'm adding any
01:12:20
more value than anybody else. My view is unless you really understand what management are trying to get across and
01:12:26
you and you've got you know the facts before you head into the meeting then you're not going to make as valid a
01:12:33
contribution. But having said that there are some genius people who can wing it a
01:12:39
little bit but still get to the nub of whatever the the major strategic issue is and say let's get up to 10,000 ft and
01:12:48
think about this a different way. So, I'm not I'm not denigrate. I personally
01:12:52
couldn't go to a board meeting without having read all the papers. I just I'd
01:12:57
stay up all night. >> Just not in your DNA. >> I'm too insecure. I think
01:13:06
>> what a career. It's been crazy, hasn't it? From Are you familiar with the term
01:13:10
tread wife? >> No. >> Tread wife. It's a something that sort of made a resurgence in the last couple
01:13:15
of years. It means um traditional wife. Um, and I I suppose essentially that's
01:13:20
what you know you were back in the day, like married young, um, stay-at-home mom
01:13:25
at the age of 21. And, um, you've just, you know, punched punched through it and just had
01:13:31
this remarkable career. It's been awesome. >> Like I said, I've been very lucky and
01:13:37
very privileged. But yeah, and look, um, it's interesting. I'm sure it's what we
01:13:44
said before, use it or lose it. I think using your brain and and having to think
01:13:49
about things different things in different ways can only be good for you. >> Um, agism and sexism. Have you
01:13:58
encountered much of either of those? I suppose agism like in recent years or decades and sexism through the decades.
01:14:06
>> Agism not so much yet, but I think you know like it will come. Mhm. >> Uh and that's when you've got to know
01:14:14
when you're not adding value, when you do have to bow out, >> not staying beyond your, you know, the
01:14:20
time that that you should. >> Sexism. Oh, the really early days. Yeah. There were some shocking, egregious
01:14:28
examples of people coming into a room and saying, "Good morning, gentlemen."
01:14:31
when there were two women standing there, you know, but I just think now certainly in the corporate environment,
01:14:37
people know they've got to have the best possible talent around the table, whether it's executive or or board. And
01:14:44
so, um, I work with fabulous guys and I work with fabulous women and I think we all
01:14:53
look at each other and think that person's great at this. What are you, you know what, that person's great at
01:14:58
that. So the sex thing doesn't come into it or gender thing. But I still think
01:15:05
having having the good the right representation, gender is only the first frontier of
01:15:11
diversity and I think that's the other thing that most boards are working on is
01:15:15
making sure that they are becoming more ethnically diverse. >> Yeah. Um and also one of the dangers I think for
01:15:24
boards is that a lot of the people who sit around the table are comparatively very wealthy
01:15:31
>> and especially on the bank board and and on warehouse really important that you
01:15:36
have people who do understand what it's like to be hard up have difficulty finding the money to pay the bills
01:15:44
making ends meet >> and never being complacent about that. Oh, the bank board. Um, yeah, you were
01:15:51
on that with um, Sir John John Key. >> Yeah. How did you find him? Did you Did
01:15:55
you have much of a relationship with him prior to the A&Z stuff? >> Yeah, I because of the the whole when I
01:16:02
was at Fairfax is when I first met him for the CEO and he came in as leader of the National Party. So, um, he used to
01:16:09
text me every time there was a good poll for national leading up to the election.
01:16:13
So, yeah, that's his numbers. >> Yeah. No, I a huge amount of respect for
01:16:17
John. And when he came in as chair of A&Z, I was over the moon. But again, you
01:16:23
know, whatever he is now is not what he's always been. And his understanding
01:16:28
about New Zealanders, what their needs are, intuitive about the things that the bank should do in that context. So no,
01:16:37
I've got an enormous amount of respect for him. M yeah, I've done a couple of
01:16:41
um speaking engagements with him and I've had him on the podcast and uh um he's I say to people that are sort of
01:16:47
left learning that have been on the podcast like look if you if you met John Key he's impossible to dislike.
01:16:52
>> Yeah. >> Impossible. >> Yeah. >> Great guy. Um he he came in here for for
01:16:58
the podcast um left his keys to his Bentley out there. Um Jazz, who you met earlier, who's um a Greeny Chloe
01:17:05
Schwarbrook uh supporter. When John left, she was like, "Oh my god, he's so
01:17:09
lovely." >> He is. Yeah. >> She'd never vote for him. But yeah,
01:17:12
lovely guy. >> Who was brave enough to move his car? >> Oh, Jazz. Jazz moved it. Yeah.
01:17:17
>> Holy moly. >> If he saw her car, he would have never let her behind it. Yeah. Little some
01:17:23
little mitsubby thing. Um but no, he's great. Um I've got a card here called Closing
01:17:29
Reflections. I I we we talked about the the Dame thing briefly before in the context of um your son Jamie and his
01:17:36
reaction to it. Um yeah, how special is that? What does that mean to you? >> Uh yeah, look, it means it doesn't make
01:17:45
any difference really. Um it's lovely to have, you know, it's a lovely acknowledgement. My mother would have
01:17:52
been over the moon about it, no doubt. Um, I think I think that generation would have thought more about it than
01:18:00
probably contemporary people do today. >> Also, I suppose cuz they're English and
01:18:04
that connection to the royal family. >> Yeah, that's right. Um, I I feel enormously privileged to have
01:18:11
it. >> Who who went to the ceremony with you? >> Um, Brian obviously. um my sister, my
01:18:21
younger sister Annie, my niece, um who I'm very close to, and the two grandkids.
01:18:28
>> Do you um do you use it as an email sign off or anything? >> No, don't.
01:18:33
>> Only No, I'll tell you. I did in the I did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell
01:18:37
you why. Because I was telling um Jazz that I was and and JJ that I was I want to get this burner doodle puppy. I only
01:18:48
saw them for the first time a few weeks ago in London. It's just so my husband
01:18:53
did some research and found out there is a breeder in New Zealand. So I emailed and I did put Dame Joan with his DN Z
01:19:02
cuz I thought that might get me further up the list. That's pretty shocking. But
01:19:06
no, normally it's just Joan. >> Yeah. >> Oh, how good. Oh, congratulations. It's
01:19:12
bloody awesome. It's neat, eh? >> Yeah, it is neat. And it is. Yeah, it's
01:19:16
I think it's it's like for the for the wider family because as I said, I was
01:19:22
overseas and my brother-in-law rang me and said, "Oh, your sisters just burst
01:19:26
into tears." So, it was big. It was a big deal for them. You know, I'd had six
01:19:30
weeks to get used to the idea, but they Yeah, that was nice. >> Do you still Do you still get on the
01:19:35
back of a horse? >> I'm between horses at the moment, so that's got to be a priority. I had my
01:19:42
horse for 13 years and when she died I got a replacement that didn't work out
01:19:46
unfortunately. It's a very naughty horse. Um so it had to go back to its owners. Uh but I that's yeah priority
01:19:54
for this year is to >> get another one cuz it's >> again it's another massive distraction.
01:20:00
You just can't think of anything else when you're on the back of a horse which
01:20:04
>> uh not if you got the right horse >> and that's the important thing. There
01:20:08
are shocking horses, you know, but I had Genie 13 years, never did anything treacherous. I never fell off her. She'd
01:20:15
see me if I go out and she saw me from the paddic. She nick her as if, "Come
01:20:20
on, let's go for a ride." >> What do you get from um riding horses
01:20:24
that you couldn't get from another hobby like like gardening? >> Oh, the connection and the partnership
01:20:31
with the animal. It's just like cuz I you know I make sure that at least three
01:20:36
of the four legs are on the ground at any given time. So I don't jump. I don't
01:20:40
do anything dangerous. But you know we did Dr. um and that's that's really
01:20:47
interesting cuz it's tweaking your leg muscles effectively and you know moving
01:20:51
your body and having the horse understand what those signals are about and then achieving what you want to
01:20:57
achieve. M so no it's and the whole thing about grooming the horse and saddling up and just you know trotting
01:21:07
around it's get your head in a different place. >> Yeah. At this stage of life uh how has your
01:21:14
definition of success changed. >> Peace of mind is is is success for me. >> Yeah. Have you got that?
01:21:22
>> Uh not at the moment but it'll come. >> Yeah. Did you have that?
01:21:28
>> Yep. I think so. Yeah. >> I return. Um, yeah. What you've been
01:21:33
through, it's like just unimaginable adversity. >> Yeah. >> How's your relationship with aging?
01:21:43
>> Aging? >> Yeah. >> Aging? Well, I look at people on TV and think, God, how old are they now? I mean
01:21:51
that's you do sort of think and and even traveling you look at people in an airport and think how old
01:21:57
are they how much longer am I going to be able to do this but I feel as I said before so healthy so fit
01:22:05
>> um that it's not an issue at the moment but I'm very conscious it can change in a
01:22:11
heartbeat you know you can go and get a diagnosis tomorrow that you're not expecting so I I think for Brian I it's
01:22:19
about making sure we make the most of the fit years that we've got left. >> And you know, having the grandkids, it's
01:22:26
been phenomenal because um they force you to do different things. He's had to teach them both to ride
01:22:33
bikes and do all that sort of stuff. So, you know, that that in itself just keeps
01:22:40
you younger and fitter, I think. So, we're very lucky. >> Are you a fun grandmother? What what do
01:22:45
they call you? Do you have a special >> grands? Grand. Yeah, I think I'm fun.
01:22:51
Yeah, I my my granddaughter's heavily into a group. You all never heard of them called the Garden.
01:22:57
>> No, I never heard of that. What is that music group? >> Yep. >> Yeah, she's heavily into music.
01:23:02
>> Um, so I do the decent thing and search the web and find merchandise and get her
01:23:08
t-shirts that she likes and >> try and be Yeah. Yeah. No, we have a good time.
01:23:13
>> Good on you. When when you reflect on your life and career, what are you most
01:23:16
proud of professional professionally and personally? >> My marriage. >> Yeah.
01:23:22
Yeah. Rock solid. Eh, did you ever come I mean, no, no relationship's ever perfect. Did you ever come close to
01:23:28
>> Oh, we have massive rows. >> Yeah. >> You know, like we have massive arrows,
01:23:33
don't get me wrong, but it is wrong. >> Oh, Jesus can be anything. >> Could be anything. He He could look at
01:23:41
me the wrong way if I'm in a bad mood and we'd have a massive row. >> Oh, that's wonderful.
01:23:49
What would you say your best and worst habits are? >> Oh god, what are my worst habits?
01:24:00
>> What would Brian say? >> I don't know. You'd really have to ask
01:24:06
him. So after all these years he you know he probably is used to it. Best habits is
01:24:12
just getting up early in the morning. Really? >> Best habit? Yeah. You are you naturally
01:24:17
an early riser? >> Yeah. Cuz we talked before about when you were doing your MBA in your mid to
01:24:21
late 30s and you were getting up at 3:00 a.m. What's >> I can I still do that if I've got a huge
01:24:25
workload? >> Right. >> If I get up and do that, you imagine by 8:00 I've done 5 hours reading. That's
01:24:31
and no interruptions, no distractions. If anybody's listening and wants a piece
01:24:35
of advice, you know, if you have it, just the best way to chew through a huge workload, you can't do it. It's not
01:24:41
sustainable to do it, you know, for a long long period of time, but just get up, get through it.
01:24:47
>> Um, >> what time are you normally in bed? >> Oh, 9:00. >> 9.
01:24:52
Do do how much sleep do you need? Like if you if you were waking up naturally, when when do you think you'd get up?
01:24:58
>> Um, hard to know. like you know we were in Sydney u Melbourne for the tennis last weekend so you know
01:25:07
probably go to bed at 10:00 and probably wake up at 6 or seven or something. Yeah,
01:25:12
>> but it's the quality of sleep and I know that's another thing I'm very lucky
01:25:16
with. I I sleep like a log. So >> yeah, >> never have any problem falling asleep
01:25:21
and I know a lot of people have difficulty with that. Um, God, the thought of getting up at 3:00 a.m. to
01:25:27
read like a 300page document that I need to retain the information for for a board meeting,
01:25:33
that sounds horrendous. >> Well, if you know you've got to do it and then and then, like I said,
01:25:41
by 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, you've done the lion share of what you're going to have
01:25:46
to do. >> That's, you know, it's a pretty good incentive. And and poor O'Brien gets up
01:25:51
at 3:00 and brings gets me a coffee as well and then goes back to bed, obviously, but
01:25:55
>> Oh, does he? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful, isn't it? >> Yep. It's wonderful. He gets to go back
01:26:01
to bed. I don't I don't >> Well, that that doesn't sound like the
01:26:06
sort of man that you want to argue with over pointless things. Cut the cut him some slack.
01:26:11
>> Um, what are you most afraid of? losing losing something that's precious
01:26:22
to me. I think having been through the Jamie thing, I think >> Yeah. I >> As in Brian, something happened.
01:26:29
>> Yeah. Or the grandkids or something, you know. >> When was the last time you cried? Are
01:26:35
you crying most days at the moment? >> Um I'm only ever at the moment 30 seconds
01:26:42
away from crying, I think. You know, like and stuff triggers it. The worst thing is being in the car and thinking
01:26:47
about something cuz I used to typically call him on my way home from a meeting or something. I'll be driving down the
01:26:52
motorway and think I'll give Jamie a call and that you know or I'll something
01:26:57
will come up and I I'll remember. I'm not I've not been a crier. So it would
01:27:01
have been years before this that I cried. >> Um but you know that's it's it's it's
01:27:07
part of the the process. So um I'm not asking for sympathy about that. It's
01:27:13
just fact of life. And the best thing about working and having something else to do is there's a lot of time that I'm
01:27:22
not thinking about it. >> You've held it together really well today. I found myself getting emotional.
01:27:29
Um on a couple of occasions, yeah, I don't know how you're doing it, but it's
01:27:33
um yeah, it's it's it's um it's Yeah, I don't know what it is. I was going to
01:27:39
say it's inspiring, but I don't know if that's the right word. >> Yeah. Yeah, I look when you there's so
01:27:44
many brave people, Dom, when you see them there, you look around and people who are I'm on on Sweet Louise, which is
01:27:51
a um a charity that's uh looks after women with metastatic breast cancer. And you
01:27:59
see a lot of these women now being diagnosed in their 30s and 40s with young kids. I look at that as bravery.
01:28:08
>> You know, they metastatic breast cancer is incurable. you can live a, you know,
01:28:12
a reasonable length of time, but those those women have kids, you know, they got families. Their whole lives are
01:28:20
just, you know, with one diagnosis, that's it. Um, how do you cope with that? That's that's bravery.
01:28:30
>> Yeah. There there's that Yeah, there's that saying, you just have to keep
01:28:32
putting one foot in front of the other. And I suppose that's true, isn't it,
01:28:36
with these things? >> Yeah. I think it's interesting. Um, I went to see Oprah Winfrey in December,
01:28:42
uh, when she was here and she got a question from the audience and it said, "How would you describe the difference
01:28:49
between coping and healing?" And I thought, "God, that's an interesting
01:28:53
question." And Oprah said that she also said it was a great question, but she said
01:29:03
that you can cope with stuff, but unless you actually go in and deal with what it
01:29:09
is that's causing the issue, you're never really going to heal. >> So, I'm sort of a little bit conscious
01:29:14
of that at the moment. I think I'm coping. I don't know that I'm healing.
01:29:18
>> Have you spoken to anyone like a professional? >> No. >> No.
01:29:22
Do you think that would that would be beneficial or do you just prefer to sort of work things out internally?
01:29:28
>> Yeah, look, I've never been someone who thought of talking to a therapist would
01:29:34
drive me nuts. You're probably the closest thing that I've come to that.
01:29:38
Um, so I don't know. We'll just just see. >> Yeah. >> See how we go.
01:29:42
>> You coping all right though? >> Yeah, cuz you know I've got loads of
01:29:48
distractions. So, >> do you have any regrets? >> Do I have any regrets?
01:29:59
>> Oh, no. I don't think so. >> I could have changed a whole bunch of
01:30:03
things, >> you know, but >> hindsight, >> but it's hindsight. And then,
01:30:10
>> you know, you change one thing and what else changes as a result. So I have to
01:30:14
be have to say I'm very happy with you know my lot in life. >> Um apart from you know Jamie it's it's
01:30:23
I've been incredibly lucky. >> Yeah. What about legacy? Is legacy something
01:30:28
you think about? Like when it when it's um when it's all done, how would you like to be
01:30:35
remembered? >> Yeah. Look, I I don't I don't know about legacy. I think I think people just with
01:30:45
a very few exceptions people, you know, even in corporate life, people move on. You think, "Oh, I wonder what's
01:30:52
happened to so and so and so and so." So, it's just like, "No, I hope I'm, you
01:30:57
know, my family. I hope that they remember me. Grandkids, nieces, and nephew, and so
01:31:05
forth." Um, but yeah, it's no, it's not something I've ever thought about or
01:31:10
focused on really. Um that that's such a good way to live your life. Yeah. You got to you have to
01:31:17
do it for yourself. Eh, and you have to make the most of it because Yeah. What else is there? Not very few people are
01:31:23
remembered. >> Yeah. I I just Yeah. I think of legacy and and people who deserve a legacy are
01:31:29
the people who've made a real difference. A real difference. Um and I don't know that I made a real
01:31:34
difference. I think I think I've done some good things and I'm happy with what
01:31:38
I've done, but um I don't deserve to be in that echelon. >> Oh, it's very modest. There's been a lot
01:31:44
of modesty in this in this chat. You're very humble. >> I don't know that I'm particularly
01:31:51
humble, but um but I I you know, I think you get things in perspective as you get
01:31:56
older. It's just like >> you learn what matters. >> Yeah. >> It's the the perk of aging, I think,
01:32:02
isn't it? >> You stop You do stop one of >> you stop sweating the small stuff. Do
01:32:08
you find that? >> Yeah. Still a bit of sweat. You know, if the printer breaks down, I still sweat
01:32:13
that. You know, like I'm not I'm not particularly good at that. >> Oh, same here. I'm terrible with tech.
01:32:20
Are you proud of yourself? >> I Yeah. Look, I think I could always have have done
01:32:33
Yeah. There's always things that you look back on and think I could have done
01:32:36
that better or differently. >> I'm No, I'm not. Am I proud of myself?
01:32:41
I'm I'm pleased I am where I am. As I say, the mo the biggest success is my
01:32:46
marriage. I think that's been the absolute bedrock of of my life really now for 50 odd years. And um I
01:32:58
just hope I've got another 20 or so that I can >> keep going and enjoying that and maybe
01:33:03
not such a frenetic pace. >> When the 20 more summers time, uh when you pass away, hopefully more than 20 uh
01:33:14
when you pass away, um what three words would you like your grandkids to say about you once you're
01:33:20
gone? Three words to describe Nan Nan. grands. >> Grands. >> Um, yeah. I I' I want them to remember me as
01:33:34
being um loving and supportive of them. Really? >> Sounds like you >> and kind. I think. Yeah, I think
01:33:43
kindness is important. >> Yeah. >> Hey, this has been a great chat. >> You say that to all your guests, Dom.
01:33:53
No, but I genuinely mean it. There's There's never been we've done over 300
01:33:57
episodes now and there's never been one where I've been got to the end and being
01:34:00
like, "Oh, that was a waste of time. That was a nothing chat." Um, but this
01:34:03
has been really really special. As I as I said earlier, I wasn't sure what to
01:34:07
expect if it would just be work focused or how open you'd be. But, um, no, it's
01:34:11
been it's been wonderful. And I'm um yeah, your relationship with your husband
01:34:17
Brian is is just absolute relationship goals and um you I'm sorry for what you
01:34:21
guys are going through um as a family at at the moment and the insights that you've shared about that I know will be
01:34:26
beneficial for a lot of people because you know you this is not unfortunately an isolated case. This happens to a lot
01:34:32
of families every year. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:34:35
>> How have you found this >> the podcast? >> Yeah. I'm so um flattered that you've
01:34:41
gone to so much effort to do the research. I think that's amazing. So um and again this is self-indulgent
01:34:49
um getting to talk about yourself. It's not no hardship. And I did get a glass
01:34:53
of water and Kanye sitting down there at my feet. So no, I've really enjoyed it.
01:34:57
Thank you. >> Well, this is the first time we've met. But um I'm I'm in awe. I've really
01:35:01
enjoyed it. Um yeah. Jeez, you're hard work though, aren't you? You're very
01:35:05
modest. Dame Joan Withers, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. >> Thank you, Dom.