00:00:00
Yeah. When you guys were knocked out of the 2007 World Cup, any sort of emotion or feeling of that day?
00:00:04
>> It's the hardest day of our lives. I think we wondered if we could live in this country if we got beaten in 211.
00:00:10
Complacency is the biggest evil >> in business and sport. I guess >> all blacks. What was your what was your
00:00:16
success record? >> 87.5. >> Oh, 85. Calm down. >> He just swore at me and said, "If you go
00:00:22
to Wales, you'll never coach in this country again." Which just made me more determined to go.
00:00:27
>> Roman Cochran, she she didn't like you in the beginning, right? And you wore her down?
00:00:30
>> Yeah. She thought I was a bit of a a prick. Really? >> What a prick. >> We've been married for 54 years. Best
00:00:37
best selection I've ever made. >> You say the Rugby World Cup is the Holy Grail. That's what gives you peace. Has
00:00:43
it given you peace? >> This episode of the Dom Harvey podcast has been brought to you by the legends
00:00:48
at ODU. If you scan the QR code on screen or click the link in the description of this episode, you'll
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00:01:26
Sir Graeme Henry Ted, welcome to my podcast. >> Pleasure. Good to be here. >> Um, first of all, um, I apologize for
00:01:34
the barrage of messages to try and get you to do it. We've been going back and forth for a very long time.
00:01:40
>> Oh, 6 months perhaps. >> No, I was always going to do it. It was just a matter of fitting it.
00:01:46
>> Yeah. You So, you're 70 77 now? 78. >> Is that Is that Is that important? I'm
00:01:53
78, actually. >> Yeah. Oh, well, no. It's um I think it's um >> I'm probably older than you, Dom,
00:01:59
>> marginally. Although some mornings I probably feel older than you. I I I find
00:02:02
it inspiring because you you're still so busy. Like I messaged you earlier in the
00:02:06
year and you said I can't do it just yet cuz me and my wife are going on a trip to the Antarctica. Um a couple of weeks
00:02:11
ago I messaged again. You're in Canada. You're all over the place. >> Yeah, we we've had a had a busy year.
00:02:18
It's not we're not that busy most years, but it just so happens that 24 seems a busy year. So I've been to Europe,
00:02:26
Canada, Antarctica, going to South Africa for the All Blacks 2 test, doing a safari in between. Couple of trips to
00:02:34
Fiji, one with a family, one to Ali Williams's wedding. Oh, you are going to that? I had um I had his fianceé, Anna
00:02:42
Mo, um in the podcast the other day, and I I asked her about the wedding guest list. I said, "Who's going that?" I'd
00:02:47
know, Dan, Richie, and she she said, "None of my none of my business." Oh, >> now I've got I've got
00:02:54
>> and I I do apologize. I won't say anymore. >> Oh, that's going to be good. >> Yes, I'm looking forward to it.
00:03:03
>> Yeah. Hey, um I so appreciate you being here. I've done so much um research. It's hard to cram like a an amazing 78
00:03:11
years of life um into a podcast, but yeah, we'll do our best to cover some of the um some of the I suppose greatest
00:03:17
hits and greatest shits of your life. Look forward to it. >> So, hey, first of all, um I found this
00:03:24
on the back of your book. It's your like your coaching stat sheet. How how good are you at recalling what you've done
00:03:30
and your records and >> percentages and stuff? >> I can't remember those, but um I look
00:03:36
back with a lot of gratitude. >> Yeah, >> I loved it. Very fortunate to go through
00:03:41
that experience. >> Well, let's try a couple of these just for a laugh. All Blacks, what was your
00:03:46
what was your success record? >> I know that one. I think it was about 87.5. >> Oh, 85. Calm down.
00:03:54
>> 85.7 was it? >> In your book, it just says 85. >> Okay. >> Um, British Lions.
00:04:01
>> Uh, we lost to Australia 2-1 the test series in 2011. In fact, it changed my life, but that was another story.
00:04:09
>> Yeah. Well, you your success record there was 70%, which on paper doesn't look too bad, but it was scarred you
00:04:15
deeply, didn't it? Oh, I just had too much on Dom and I >> I hit the wall actually and that's why I
00:04:21
resigned from Welsh rugby and and came back to New Zealand. So, I got depression
00:04:27
>> uh self assessment of course. I didn't go to a to a doctor or any but I just I
00:04:33
just lost all desire or energy to do the job. >> And I was contracted to Wales for 5
00:04:39
years and I've been through three and a half years of that contract. So, I was meant to go on to the 2003 Rugby World
00:04:46
Cup in Australia, but um I just couldn't couldn't do the job. I'd hit the wall. Uh got overloaded, didn't think I would.
00:04:56
Thought I was bulletproof and uh I wasn't. So, that was a great learning experience.
00:05:01
>> Yeah, I'd love to get into that into some greater detail later on if you'd be
00:05:05
prepared to. Um yeah. Yeah, I've heard you talk about this before and um it's so good to hear um your guys in
00:05:14
particular of a certain age talking about that stuff openly. I've had John Hart. Have you do you know Hardy very
00:05:19
well? >> I know Hardy pretty well. >> Yeah, I've had him on the podcast and there's a lot of parallels between what
00:05:23
you went through and what he went through after 1999 in the World Cup. Um so we'll get into that a bit later. Um
00:05:30
first of all, let's go right back to the young Graeme Henry. So good cricketer, good rugby player, bit of a smartass.
00:05:38
Yeah, that's a good summary. >> Is it? You got caned on your last day of school.
00:05:43
>> Hell, we're going to go right back there >> just briefly. >> Um, yeah, I I I thought that was was a
00:05:51
token. Really >> ridiculous. Really looking back. >> Yeah, it was a master that had it in for
00:05:57
you, right? That was looking for >> I was a music master. Yeah. I'd been playing cricket for Christ Church Boys
00:06:02
versus Oakland Grammar School. So I hadn't hand him a text back textbooks back to the textbook shop. So I was
00:06:09
doing that and I was meant to be an assembly apparently. So that's why I got Kane. Ridiculous,
00:06:16
isn't it? We're talking about 1964 and I refused the cane from the deputy headmaster. So I sent to the headmaster
00:06:26
of Christ Church Boys and he gave me a couple of tokens on the bum. But um the staff got very upset about that um
00:06:35
>> at the injustice. >> At the injustice, but you know, it was just one of those things that happened.
00:06:42
>> Um I thought it was an injustice, but it wasn't a biggie. >> Well, you got into the education system
00:06:48
yourself, so I'm sure you got payback on a lot of There's probably a lot of like
00:06:51
middle-aged men in the country that have got the honor of being caned by Graeme Henry.
00:06:56
>> Would it be fair to say? >> I think it hurt me more than that hurt them, though. Hey,
00:07:03
>> that's what my dad used to say before he gave me the belt. >> Oh, >> and I was like, "No, it doesn't. Trust
00:07:08
me, it's hurting me the more the most." >> Well, it was a a quick sharp punishment
00:07:12
and you got got on. So, it had its value. >> Yeah. >> At the time, but I can understand why
00:07:19
it's been abolished. There's been a lot more communication between the school and the parents now,
00:07:25
>> which I guess is a positive. >> Yeah. So tell us about um young Raywin Cochran.
00:07:32
>> Raymond Cochran. She she didn't like you in the beginning, right? And you wore
00:07:35
her down. >> Yeah. She thought I was a bit of a a prick. Really? >> What a prick?
00:07:41
>> Is that a Is that allowed to be on the podcast? >> Anything goes. >> So we were in the same class at physical
00:07:47
education school in Deneden. Both Christ Church people didn't know each other. um got together in the third year of
00:07:56
three. So the first two years she avoided me. As I said, I think she thought I was a bit of a twit. Um but
00:08:06
once she got to know me, thank goodness she uh bent and uh we got married very young. Ridiculous. 23 and 21.
00:08:14
>> 1973. >> We're still together. No. 1970. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. You got that wrong. But that's
00:08:21
okay. Um, >> I'm going to edit that out. >> You can't be right all the time. And um,
00:08:26
so we've been married for 54 years. >> Best best selection I've ever made. >> Never dropped her once.
00:08:36
>> We're still married. She's still my current wife. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I um I actually I bumped
00:08:40
into you guys in um, Wiki Island maybe a couple of months ago. You two you both look great for your Actually, you I was
00:08:47
going to say for your age, but for any age, you both walk briskly through the car park. Um, and you look you look
00:08:52
really happy like you know I think you were holding hands at the time. >> Is that right?
00:08:57
>> Goodness me. >> Yeah. Been an unusual situation but no no as I say to my most most important
00:09:04
selection of my life. She's been fantastic. >> Uh she knows rugby. That's not why I
00:09:09
married her but she came from a rugby family. Two brothers and father all played representative rugby. Two
00:09:17
brothers. One played for New Zealand 20s. one was an all black trialist. U so she knew the game
00:09:25
which was a hell of an advantage. Also a very good sportsman, sports person, sportswoman in her own right. Uh coached
00:09:34
the Welsh net team, coached Oakland, New Zealand silver fern selector. M >> um so you know that understanding of of
00:09:43
sport at a high level and what was required was a real benefit and a real help. >> Yeah. Didn't she initially um this might
00:09:52
be just an urban legend but didn't she sort of initially select Conrad Smith? >> Oh that's a good story.
00:09:59
Yes. Well I came home one night after being I think in Deneden and Conrad was playing for the Hurricanes probably in
00:10:06
Wellington against somebody else. So I hadn't seen the game and I said how would the game go playing whoever. She
00:10:14
said gee that comrade Smith's not a bad player. Well not you too Rowan. So BJ Lor god bless him miss him dearly uh had
00:10:24
been talking about Conrad and we had all been talking about Conrad. She said he's
00:10:28
a very intelligent player. Oh okay. So um in the finish we picked Conrad but I always tell the story that
00:10:38
Conrad got bit you know he got over confident because he knew I my marriage was over I ever dropped him.
00:10:46
>> So uh that was just a story but he was a fabulous all black. >> Yeah he was. >> But you know she um she knew rugby and
00:10:55
could >> could see good players on the field and understood the game. you you must have
00:11:00
um tested her at times over the years. Um like very early on you're in Christ Church. You just bought a house which
00:11:07
was no mean feat at the time and then um straight away like you up sticks and moved to Oakland. Did you did you sort
00:11:12
of discuss that with her or you're looking at me confused? This was in your book. What do you just go home one day
00:11:19
and say, "Hey, I've got this job. We're going to Auckland." >> Yeah. Well, you've done your homework,
00:11:23
Dom, and I'm not confused, but I'm just surprised at the question. Yeah, I probably didn't handle it very
00:11:31
well. You know, it was early time in the marriage, and Rayan's had never lived in her own house.
00:11:37
Parents didn't own their own house. And so, it was really big deal for her, big deal for both of us. And um I got a ring
00:11:46
from John Graham, who was the principal of Oakland Grammar School. Well, he taught me as a kid at Christ Church Boys
00:11:53
and he also coached me at high school all boys rugby club in Christ Church. >> And all black in his own right too,
00:11:58
right? All black captain. He was he was a very special person to me. Very fine teacher, great mentor. I wouldn't be
00:12:07
sitting here talking to you if it hadn't been for him. So he rang me. He's just started as principal of walking grammar
00:12:14
school. 1973 it was said there's a job here Ted you want it? I could have bitten his arm off because I was I was
00:12:22
wavered at the time. I hadn't really set any roots down and was making any progress.
00:12:29
So yes, I'll take yes, I'll be there. And I thought, oh hell, new house, new wife, better discuss it.
00:12:39
So before I made the decision before I discuss it with the most important person.
00:12:45
Uh so it wasn't easy. uh cuz leaving Christ Church where we're born and bred both of us uh where our parents were and
00:12:54
uh to come up here. But best decision I ever made. >> So you um you learned your lesson. So
00:13:01
years decades down the track when it's um time to leave New Zealand and go to Wales, you do run it past Raywin first.
00:13:09
>> You're a difficult man with asking difficult questions. >> I'm sure I did. Um,
00:13:15
>> we have to get Raymond in for a chat to get her. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Well, it probably be
00:13:19
different from what I'm saying. But I got this invitation to go to Wales. So, she knew about the invitation.
00:13:27
Um, and when we decided when I decided to go, uh, I think I'm sure we had discussed it, but I think the term was 5
00:13:38
years away from New Zealand >> was quite a a hurdle, but she's always been recent always been very supportive.
00:13:47
So, I've been extremely lucky. >> Yeah. Yeah. We'll get into the the Wales chapter later on as well. There's
00:13:54
there's just so much of your story to get through. Like it's been such a such a rich mosaic of a life. Why? Oh, you
00:14:01
look worried now. Like how long is this going to take? >> Yeah. Is that a question or a statement?
00:14:08
>> Okay. So, um Oh, but you did well out of the house in Christ Church, right? Like
00:14:11
you you bought it for something like $10,000 and doubled your money. >> Yeah. I think we bought it in pounds
00:14:16
days, was it? Right. >> Yeah. What would have been pounds? Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like over what sort of span of time did
00:14:21
you double your money? Like over a course of a year or a couple of years? >> 18 months, I think. Wow. It's a long
00:14:27
time ago, doc. Before you were born. >> Yeah. Abs. Well, I was born in 73. So, about that time. Yeah. So, now it's a
00:14:34
wee while away, but I think we doubled our money in 2 years. Yeah. >> Incredible.
00:14:40
>> Yeah. So, we went from 10 to 20. >> Yeah. Well, that would ease the pain for Rayan of moving to Aland.
00:14:46
>> Um, money is not that important. Housewise. Um, and you know, it was a big big step.
00:14:54
>> Yeah. Christ Church people going to walk are not the right thing. >> Right. Really? Was it uh Well, I think
00:15:00
that's probably part of it. >> Yeah. >> Um we've loved it. >> Oh, that's been very good to you, too.
00:15:06
E. So, so yes. So, you come to Oakuckland. Um this is when you get in the teaching system. This is sort of
00:15:10
when your your um coaching career starts. Um so, your hostel master and you're dealing with the likes of say
00:15:18
like Grant, when did you first meet Grant Fox? How old was he? Like 13. Yeah, he was a hostile boy.
00:15:24
>> Yeah. >> Uh came from Pataru originally and then from his parents bought a motel in
00:15:31
Taonga. Got to know his parents well but he was I would say was 1975 76 doesn't matter. Um and some and he
00:15:42
was a hostile boy and somebody said to me you want to go and see this little blonde kid kicking goals down the bottom
00:15:48
field at Oakland Grammar School come to my office. So, I wanted the down in the bottom field and he was Foxy kicking
00:15:54
goals from the sideline as a 13year-old. Well, that looks pretty good. >> Yeah. >> Who else? Martin Crow. He was a good
00:16:02
rugby player, right? >> Uh, there was I coached the Oakland Grammar School side with a guy named
00:16:07
Derek Stubs for three years and then I coached by myself and um there was seven All Blacks during
00:16:14
that time. coached the first 11 for a while and Martin Crow and Mark Greatbatch were in that team. Jeff
00:16:21
Crowe. >> Wow. >> Um, all blacks John Drake, Nikki Allen, obviously Foxy, the Weton brothers, Gary
00:16:30
and Allen. Uh, two hookers, John Bucken and John Mills. I think that's seven. Um, so like they were like I learned to
00:16:39
coach there. Like I've got so much uh great memories of those young guys. They were just jumping out of their
00:16:46
skin, wanting to play, love the game. Um, coached in the afternoon after school. Ideal environment, ideal
00:16:55
um, group of guys to coach. Still see them a lot. >> We have social occasions. We get
00:17:02
together. Um, so it was the ideal environment to learn to coach. >> Yeah. By the way, on that um, scorecard
00:17:09
of your career for Oakland Grammar, uh, you were the coach of 102 games. Do you know what your success record was or how
00:17:15
many wins losses? >> Oh, it was fairly high, I think. >> Yeah. 93% success. >> You know, good coaches, Dom have good
00:17:22
teams. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know, you dropped a lot of good names there.
00:17:26
>> Yeah. No, no, we had good teams and um >> and as I say, they were just a great
00:17:32
bunch of young men. A lot of them have made a massive difference to life in New Zealand, quite frankly. been very
00:17:37
successful people, >> not necessarily in sport, but in business and and in community.
00:17:43
>> Yeah. >> Fantastic. >> And then you sort of rise through the coaching ranks. I suppose this is when
00:17:48
you are you familiar with the a guy called Malcolm Gladwell in the 10,000 hour theory.
00:17:53
>> I I hear about the 10,000 theory. >> Yeah. So this this would have been I suppose where you cut your teeth or got
00:17:57
your 10,000 hours right through the the school system and through those sort of junior grades.
00:18:01
>> Yeah. Well, the guy I was a bit of a goal setter and um when you win a couple
00:18:06
of championships at secondary school level, you think you can coach the world. So pretty arrogant
00:18:12
as you say. Um so I was a goal setter and I used to write my goals down and one of them well there was good marriage
00:18:20
and school headmaster and coach the all blacks. It only took me 30 years to get there.
00:18:28
So, but you know, as I say, um what a foundation to be able to learn to coach in that environment.
00:18:34
>> What else was on that list? Were they the three goals or Oh, you know, successful kids, kids who enjoy life. I
00:18:41
can't remember the rest, Dom, >> but you've nailed them all. >> Um, yeah, I think so. Look, I'm
00:18:48
Life's been fantastic and now school headmaster. I think we've got a great marriage, but
00:18:53
you'd have to ask Rayan that she stuck around. Uh she has but she's >> always a promising sign.
00:18:59
>> She's a very resilient woman. Um you know and and and coaching the All Black.
00:19:05
So you know I I it was 30 years later when I managed to I was 58 when I started coaching the All Black. So
00:19:12
>> it took a we time but I wasn't a professional rugby player or an All Black. So
00:19:19
>> in those days you just did you went through the grades and and it's a pity that doesn't happen more often. Although
00:19:26
no um Razer has done the same, you know, he started off coaching club footie and
00:19:31
and going through. So that's good. >> Yeah, this is your your age thing is part of what um attracts me to um the
00:19:38
Graham Henry story cuz I'm I'm 51 now. I got a lot of mates in their you early mid-50s and a lot of them are just sort
00:19:43
of it feels like they've reached the apex of their life and they're just sort of like cruising along now or even sort
00:19:49
of going downhill. the fact that like all your greatest coaching achievements happened after the age of 50. It's um I
00:19:56
think it's inspirational. I think it's cool. >> Well, the game went professional in 96.
00:20:00
>> Mhm. >> And I was 50 in 96. Uh >> so, you know, just the and they had what can you say are the best years of your
00:20:10
life? But I was 58 to 66 when I coached the All Blacks. And I look back and say how lucky you were, you know, fantastic.
00:20:21
>> Um, so I got huge gratitude for that opportunity. >> Suppose it seems seems quite odd to be
00:20:29
coaching a big team like the All Blacks, but still far too young to be president
00:20:32
of America. >> What a shamble that is. >> [ __ ] show. Okay. So, um, yes. So, you
00:20:39
were in Oakuckland in the '90s. You were sort of like um I suppose the thing you
00:20:43
could compare it to is like Razer and Canterbury, right? Like you were winning everything. How many how many MPC titles
00:20:48
did you you won like three in a row, four in a row? >> Yeah, but as I said before, you know, we
00:20:53
had a ma marvelous foundation. So Arty coached them and then Morris and BG Morris Trap and BG Williams and then I
00:21:02
followed them and there was a magnificent period of walk rugby. Uh, in fact, I was a coach when they
00:21:08
lost the shield. >> You won it back though, right? >> Yeah. But, you know, >> we still lost it.
00:21:16
>> I think it was 64 challenges and it was ridiculous. Um, length of time, eight years or something. So, I
00:21:26
think Arty won it against Canterbury. Hardy definitely won it as coach. His team won it. Then BG and Morris
00:21:35
kept it. Then Ted got the team and lost it. And there was a very very big social
00:21:42
function of the Ran Philly Shield era and the guest speakers were John Hart and Morris Trap. Graeme Henry stood in
00:21:50
the corner cuz he had lost the bloody thing. But ah so we we had very good rugby teams
00:21:58
and um so you know a lot of credit must go to those fantastic players. M we just
00:22:05
happen to be the coaches and >> Oh, you you you're deflecting a lot of the a lot of the credit here. Um
00:22:11
rugby at the time was a dynasty. Eh, it was >> I I loved it. Loved the involvement. We
00:22:16
won four national championships in a row. >> Um I think from 93 to whatever. >> Mhm.
00:22:24
>> 93, 94, 95, 96. And the team won the first two super the oran coach was also the Blues coach. And Matt McCallion was
00:22:34
was the other coach in the Blues who was outstanding. And we won the first two Blues first two super championships in
00:22:42
96 and 97. Got beaten in 98 by the Crusaders at Eden Park in the final. >> Still annoys me. Dong. Um and then I
00:22:52
went to Wales. So those those years in the blues who who was in was Jonah in those teams?
00:22:58
>> Yeah, we had a poor side really like we had Jonah and Joey Vandere and Adrien
00:23:03
Cash Ronnie Clark and Lee Stenson and Carlos Spencer Junior Tanu Michael Jones and Zen Brookke Mark Carter Robin
00:23:13
Brookke you know your memor is good isn't it? >> Brown Craig Dow Sean Fitzpatrick like it
00:23:19
was a was an average team. >> Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a team of champions, eh? It was a What What are
00:23:26
your What are your memories of um like Jonah Manania or the first time you The first time you sort of came across this
00:23:32
kid? >> Oh, he was very quiet. I mean, you couldn't get boo out of him and he and
00:23:37
he struggled with the fitness side of the game and we know why now. >> Uh but hell, he changed the game. like
00:23:45
he the television people couldn't wait to get professional rugby on the screens and he was the catalyst of that.
00:23:53
>> He was a he was he changed the game like a 120 kilo winger who could run the 100
00:23:58
meters in 11 seconds and do what he did on the on the rugby field. I was all on the coaching of course D
00:24:07
>> 100%. It would have been nothing without you. And then you know I remember him
00:24:11
scoring a try in a semifinal probably in 97. We got the ball from the end of the line
00:24:19
out half back to him half back to winger and he scored under the under the post from the 22. Four
00:24:26
guys hanging on to him. You know that's all in the coaching surely >> cuz at at that time um I was a young
00:24:35
broadcaster in Palmer North and rugby just weren't professional. So I had a couple of um couple of mates who had a
00:24:40
lot of spare time on their hands like Christian Cullen, uh Kristen Davis, Mark Rambi. So a few of us would play golf
00:24:46
all day. Um Christian went on to be a very good All Black as as you'd be well aware of. He he told me stories of those
00:24:52
early days of professional rugby about um just the money that was going around and they'd be on the team bus, they'd
00:24:59
stop somewhere and Jonah would buy like a a stereo for the bus and just the money. What was your experience when
00:25:06
rugby first went professional of um you know these these young kids that had no sort of financial literacy coming into
00:25:11
big sums of money being a being the wise old soul of the team? Wow. Um no I I think they took a while to to
00:25:21
shake down into into professional athletes and maybe it's gone too far now you know like they still love the game
00:25:29
like those guys are brought up working doing normal jobs. carpenters or electricians or lawyers or whatever
00:25:39
school teachers. Um, so it took him a while to get their feet under the table in the professional sense. I remember
00:25:47
Jonah, we played a pre-season game, super preseason game in Greymouth, uh, before we went to the Highlanders,
00:25:56
the first game of the championship, and there was probably 6,000 people there. And after the game, there would
00:26:03
have been 5,000 people around Jonah. Like he was just he just he was enormous in the game, but he just attracted
00:26:12
people. Um I look I I I can't remember how they handled the the money side of things,
00:26:21
but they were a pleasure. Um >> I've heard stories about him buying cars for young players like later on in his
00:26:28
career. Yeah, >> I I think that's probably an exaggeration, but I could be wrong.
00:26:32
>> Amazing. And then so it was around this time, so um you're you're part of this
00:26:36
um massive massive success in Oakuckland. Um all of you, nothing to do with the players and then um so is this
00:26:44
about the time when the Wales thing comes along? So you get overlooked for an All Blacks job. What happens there?
00:26:49
>> Yeah, you sort of snuck by the All Black. >> I had applied for the All Blacks job.
00:26:54
Uh hell, it's a long time ago. Um I think when Harty got the job in 95 and thank god I missed it cuz I wasn't ready
00:27:04
but you think you are. >> Why with hindsight why do why do you look back now and say you weren't ready?
00:27:10
>> Well I hadn't you know I'd been a school teacher I hadn't been involved in the
00:27:14
game. So like a guy like Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen they were in rugbymies and
00:27:20
so on. So as part when the game was amateur so they grew up in the game if you like. Smithy was CEO of Hawks Bay
00:27:27
Rugby. I was a school teacher and a school principal. So I wasn't involved in the game apart from it was my
00:27:34
passion, my obby uh coaching the game. >> Mhm. >> And so you know in um 95 I was still a school principal.
00:27:46
>> Although to to be fair it wasn't John Hart. It was like a side hustle for him
00:27:49
as well. Right. He had his job at >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he had, you know, he had coached Aland in the middle 80s.
00:27:55
>> Okay. More paid his dues more, you >> Yeah. Yeah. He he Yeah. And so I wasn't ready. So I was,
00:28:02
you know, I thought I might get the job. Uh and um that was something you missed,
00:28:10
>> which is thank god you'd missed that. >> Um I can't remember the question, Dom.
00:28:14
What was the question? >> Oh, so yeah, it was around this time that you you left and went to Wales. So
00:28:19
>> Oh, yeah. I got an invitation to come to Welsh. >> Uh so I got a ring. Are you interested?
00:28:26
Which, you know, when you got a a rugby nation which is as mad as the Welsh, it's their number, you know, it's their
00:28:33
national sport, they're passionate about it. Uh there's a huge relationship between the Welsh and the the New
00:28:40
Zealand about rugby. Lot of respect. Um so I was I was pretty chuffed to get an invitation to go to Wales. Absolutely.
00:28:49
>> So, I was coaching the Blues and the Oakland at the time and I thought, "Oh, I better go down and
00:28:55
have a chat to New Zealand rugby about this cuz I really want to coach the All Blacks as being a Kiwi unit. That's what
00:29:02
you want to do." >> So, I went down and saw David Moffett in Wellington. He was a CEO of New Zealand
00:29:08
Rugby. >> Uh, he just abused me. >> Did he actually? >> He just I can't repeat what he said.
00:29:16
>> Yeah, it's a podcast. You can if you want. >> No, I can't. It was really What was it
00:29:21
really? Is this true? >> Like I couldn't believe what he said to me. >> What? Just really dismissive or like
00:29:28
just actually downright rude? >> Uh both. He just swore at me and said, "If you go
00:29:34
to go to uh Wales, you'll never coach in this country again." With a few exploitives.
00:29:42
Um, and I was shocked, which just gave me the more made me more determined to go. And then I then I did some homework,
00:29:52
you know, with a few board members and they were lukewarm. So I thought, "Ah, a great I'll go."
00:30:00
And um I did discuss it a we of course. Um, >> lesson learned from Christ Church.
00:30:09
And no, it was it was I was I was amazed. And they put this clause together called the Henry Clause. If you
00:30:17
went overseas and coached international rugby, you wouldn't coach the All Blacks. You wouldn't coach in this
00:30:21
country again. In fact, >> is that what it was called? The Henry Clause. >> Yeah. And so I thought I'd burnt the
00:30:28
bridges quite frankly. Um, and just to finish that story, when I came back, uh, the 2003 Rugby World Cup was
00:30:39
imminent. So, I came back in 2002 and it was meant to be in New Zealand and Australia, 2003 Rugby World Cup. But
00:30:49
because they couldn't get clean grounds, no advertising in New Zealand, the International Rugby Board, the IRB at
00:30:55
that time, now in World Rugby, said, "No, we can't have the World Cup in New Zealand, can't get clean grounds. We'll
00:31:02
only be in Australia." So the board and the CEO got got moved on. >> All of them. All of them at the same
00:31:11
time. >> And and the Henry course was lost. >> Yeah. >> And uh history's history. You must have
00:31:18
Do you send them all the condolence cards at the time? >> It was it was a it was it was a dis it
00:31:24
was disappointing actually because you you'd given a lot of a lot of time to and not because you didn't enjoy it but
00:31:33
I'd coached in Rockland rugby for I coached under 20s for four years the B team for a year and probably six or
00:31:41
seven years with the A team. So probably 12 years of service. Um, >> it's a real slap in the face.
00:31:48
>> It's not like it was a hell of an enjoyable for me, but the reaction to me going to Wales was really negative from
00:31:57
New Zealand and Oakland Rugby. >> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Was it at the time? I I remember um you did a press conference
00:32:07
and then left the country straight away, right? Pretty much. You Oh, your car got
00:32:10
towed. You did a press conference and your car got towed so you had to get a taxi to the airport.
00:32:16
Was it David Moffett that towed your car? >> Oh, possibly. >> I I was talking to Dika, actually,
00:32:22
Murray Deika. >> Yeah. >> I said, "I'm going to Wales and I'm going tonight." Uh, it just happened. He was a mate at
00:32:30
the time. And um it was just a way of sort of ruling off. And I did have a car. Obviously, I parked it in the right
00:32:40
wrong place. So, they had to and had to fight it. But I flew to Wales that night. Um
00:32:47
>> that's right with with um Grant Dalton. He happened to be in the lounge and you
00:32:51
guys ended up um sitting next to each other on the plane. >> I don't know if we sat next to each
00:32:56
other and playing, but we certainly had a conversation. Um yeah. Yeah, it was like it was
00:33:05
really exciting to have a new challenge but disappointing that after a lot of time in New Zealand rugby that the
00:33:14
administrators just cut me off. >> And since there was that thing called the Henry Claws, like you must have when
00:33:23
you hopped on that plane, it must have been um quite significant. Like you must have really thought that was it.
00:33:28
>> You know what I mean? It's like you you this this dream that you had I suppose
00:33:31
the dream that you had in your drawer along with you know keeping your marriage good and raising happy healthy
00:33:36
kids you could strike that off that dream was over. >> Yeah to take that a wee bit further Dom
00:33:42
I the I talked to the CEO of Oakland Rugby cuz I had a contract with them. I didn't have a contract with New Zealand
00:33:50
even though I was coaching super rugby with the Blues. I didn't agree with the contract so I didn't sign it
00:33:57
but I had a contract with Oakland Rugby which went on for another I think another 18 months and I talked to the
00:34:03
CEO and he said oh you've got hell a lot of service to rugby you'll be fine Ted don't worry about it and just before I
00:34:12
left I got a ring from the CEO who said look we're in a board meeting uh would you can you come along to the
00:34:20
board meeting I said oh yeah I thought this doesn't sound too good. So I arrived at the board meeting. They said,
00:34:26
"Look, we're happy for you to go to Wales, but you'll have to pay you'll have to buy out of your contract." I
00:34:31
said, "How much is that?" They said, "300k." [ __ ] And so um I thought that was
00:34:38
pretty bad at the time. And so I some of my mates in rugby got together and put some pressure on it was reduced to 150.
00:34:47
If I had known they were going to do that when I signed the contract with Wales, they would have paid it.
00:34:53
>> But I said, "No, everything's okay. I'm sure Aland Ricky would be fine." But I
00:34:58
was mistaken, which was very disappointing at the time. So I paid that £1 150 over 3 years. 50,000 a year
00:35:05
for three years. >> It's a lot of money. You were earning good money though, right? Like £250 a
00:35:09
year in Wales. >> Oh, we bit more than that, Dom. >> Was it more than that? And that the
00:35:13
exchange rate was terrible. So that's like three times that in New Zealand dollars.
00:35:16
>> Yeah. No, it was it was a good contract. >> Yeah. >> And um >> so you weren't too worried about the
00:35:20
Oakland money. It was just the principle, >> but I really wanted to take another step
00:35:25
in my coaching. >> So I'd coached provincial rugby and super rugby for eight years. And I
00:35:32
wanted to coach international rugby. I was I was 50, 52, >> 53. So I was maturing. I was getting on
00:35:43
and it was a magnificent experience. I I look back and think, hell. And Rayan went over and she coached a Welsh uh
00:35:52
what coached a club side in Cardiff and uh she's she's into Nepal. She's a very good net coach. Coach Aland
00:36:01
uh and she was coaching this club team and they asked her to coach the Welsh team. So she was coaching Welsh Nipple
00:36:07
and I was coaching Welsh rugby. So we were >> pretty a couple. >> We were pretty busy at the time. Loved
00:36:14
it. you know, we were very very very involved in the in Welsh community and and and the environment and all the
00:36:22
people uh just love that experience. >> You go over and you know nobody. >> So, it's a hell of a challenge and the
00:36:30
Welsh had had some challenges with their results over the previous couple of years. So, there was a big challenge on
00:36:38
>> Yeah. Cuz before you went over there, they played South Africa and lost by like 80 points or something, right? 963
00:36:44
>> 963 >> Yes. >> And then you you must and you signed by then you must be thinking what am I
00:36:50
walking into 963. >> Funny enough when all this was happening and David Moffet said if you go to Wales you'll
00:37:02
never coach in this country again. I arranged to meet the CEO of Welsh Rugby and the chairman in Sydney
00:37:10
and it was the weekend of the 963 or whatever it was. So it was probably a good time to be talking to them and I
00:37:19
signed the contract in Sydney. So, I didn't go to Wales cuz I didn't know if I was going to sign it till I saw the
00:37:26
detail. And I had a lawyer who I sent the contract to, emailed it. Do we have emails in 96?
00:37:37
No, it's probably like a telegram. >> Anyway, 98 it was. I must have had emails. Anyway, I finished up signing
00:37:45
the contract in in Sydney. Um, yeah. >> Yeah. But but a team a team that's just lost by 93 points. What makes what makes
00:37:54
you think you can add value and turn them around? Where do you begin? >> Um >> is it because they're in such a such a
00:38:00
crap place you think the you know the only way is up? >> Yeah. You didn't think of that. You know
00:38:05
they've got a history which was fantastic. not all successful, but I remember watching the 1970 Lions play,
00:38:13
you know, and Carwin James's team, and it was the the nucleus of that team was Welsh, and a lot of those Welsh guys
00:38:21
like like Barry John and Gareth Edward and those and JPR Williams and all those guys I met
00:38:29
>> when I was in Wales. Uh, fantastic men and I they they have had a history of some success. M
00:38:36
>> so there must been something in the in the blood there and then the country that
00:38:41
>> so just it was just a bad a bad game >> bad game and and your um your results
00:38:46
were immediate like yeah 11 wins in a row >> they weren't quite immediate um but
00:38:52
>> from an outsiders perspective it seems like you >> there was two or three tests we went
00:38:55
through before we started to win >> right >> yeah we had a we yeah we had a good run
00:39:00
we had a bit of luck we had a good run M >> um and you know the Millennium Stadium
00:39:08
was being built and we played South Africa to open the Millennium Stadium and Wales had never beaten South Africa.
00:39:15
We're talking 1998. Are we talking 98? Have I got that right? Yeah, I think so. At opening of
00:39:23
the Millennium might have been 99 actually. And um we beat the South Africans, open
00:39:29
the Millennium Stadium was only half full for security reasons. So they half full, 3/4 full full for the opening of
00:39:37
the stadium for for health and safety reasons. >> And um I think we won 26 or 2719.
00:39:47
Brilliant. Brilliant. You know, like it's dreams are made of those things. Just fantastic. And we we had some some
00:39:56
good wins. We beat France and Paris for the first time since 1976. And we beat England at Wembley in a
00:40:05
special game 3332 3231 something like that. Um so >> by the way your your recall is
00:40:14
incredible. Um so yeah don't get me don't ask some difficult questions but >> and don't do fact afterwards
00:40:23
>> but you know was there was a brilliant group of guys we connected well um and I think being out a nonwelsh people
00:40:34
person that helped cuz it's very tribal Wales is very tribal east west uh north south
00:40:43
>> so often because it's tribal and you get a Welsh person selecting, they pick their own rather than the best,
00:40:51
>> right? So, you were neutral >> sometimes >> and I was neutral and managed to pick
00:40:57
the best team and I've just been to been to Europe, been to Wales, been to Cardiff for our anniversary of that
00:41:04
England game against Wales vers England at Wembley >> in 1999. Uh 18th of March we had a anniversary of
00:41:15
that game. Um 25 years. >> Incredible. >> And I've just been to the anniversary in
00:41:22
Cardiff. >> Brilliant. Brilliant guys. Great fun. >> Are you Are you still like a like a god
00:41:29
over there? >> That's a stupid question to ask me, John. Am I still like a god over there?
00:41:35
No, I just love the people. They're they're very supportive. uh they celebrate successes. They don't
00:41:42
have a lot. Um and you know there's a lot of unemployment in Wales particularly in the valleys and rugby to
00:41:50
them is very important and successes they celebrate and they've got great memories
00:41:57
of of fantastic wins, you know. >> But yes, so this was around the time that you got the nickname um the great
00:42:03
redeemer. Um how was that at the time? >> Ridiculous. What? You don't have like a
00:42:09
See, if I was you, I'd have like a probably a framed newspaper on my wall at home with um that headline. Did it
00:42:15
Did it sit comfortably with you? It must have felt like the ultimate [ __ ] you to
00:42:18
David Moffford and the NZRU back home. >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess it was. >> Or does it just was the part of you that
00:42:24
just makes you nervous cuz you know that you know what goes up must come come down.
00:42:28
>> No, you don't think of that. No. >> No. You just you're just trying to do your best, you know. And
00:42:34
um and I I I coached like I'd always coached and I how I've been coached. You coach from the front. You drive it and
00:42:43
then in the finish it takes its toll, you know, after those after that series of successes and let's
00:42:50
be frank, we got to the 99 Rugby World Cup and we get to the quarterfinal got beaten by the Australians
00:42:59
in the quarterfinal. They went on to win the Rugby World Cup. They were good in those days, best in the world. So, they
00:43:06
won the 1990 World Cup, but they beat us in the quarter. I can't remember what the score was, 79 or something like
00:43:14
that. >> Um, and then I got asked to coach the British and Irish Lions. And the British and Irish Lions is a
00:43:22
huge a huge part of the game, you know. >> Yeah. England, Ireland, Scotland, and
00:43:26
Wales. >> Oh, yeah. So it's >> it's a legendary rugby team and it makes rugby go round.
00:43:33
>> It's a big filllet for the South Africa, Australia and New Zealand when they tour
00:43:38
>> cuz it fills the coffers. >> But you know, Lions teams have been fantastic over the years and be the
00:43:46
first non-Brit non-Irish person to be asked to coach the British and Irish Lions is is big.
00:43:55
>> Yeah. even though I so say so myself. >> Um so >> it's just an opportunity you just can't
00:44:00
it's too good to turn down >> and also you know you wanted to stick it up New Zealand rugby and say well you
00:44:04
can you're not you're not a bloody has been or you can do the job. Um but it took its toll
00:44:13
and I the guy when I got when I was asked to do the job obviously I had to discuss it with the Welsh Rugby Union
00:44:20
and um they said look don't do this Ted too much too much on your plate and I thought I was bulletproof
00:44:31
you were the great great redeemer. >> Yeah I thought it was bulletproof but it took its toll when I hit the wall and
00:44:36
got depression. >> Yeah. Actually, I've got um I've got a a photo to show. You know, there's that
00:44:40
saying of a picture paints a thousand words. Yeah. What um what do you feel when you see this?
00:44:47
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was you know the lions too. I've seen the I've seen the photo. Thanks, Dom.
00:44:54
>> Don't even want to hold it. What camera? >> No, no, no, no, no. Well, you know, we
00:44:59
had all the players on the Lions tour had had um contracts with media >> with a newspaper
00:45:07
and um those two, Dawson and Healey, uh weren't great team people at the time. And so
00:45:19
Dorson had written some negative stuff before the first test about the Lions and my coaching and which is
00:45:28
you know the way it was but it came out in all the it came out in the newspapers
00:45:33
before the first test in Brisbane >> a game that we happened to win and win very comfortably and play superbly. Uh,
00:45:41
but you know, it was just the way it was in those days, you know. Um, I'm sure players don't have media contracts
00:45:48
today, but that's the way it was then. >> And, uh, so it was pretty lonely tour.
00:45:54
Like, I'm not blaming anybody. >> No. >> Um, I was coaching with three or four English guys who were bloody good and I
00:46:03
enjoyed them and I think we did a good job. M >> it was a hell of a series cuz the
00:46:08
Australians were world champions >> from 99 and this is 2011. Finished up getting beaten 2-1. Seven tries each.
00:46:15
I'm pumping up my own tires here, Don. Um but when I got back to Wales, I was just completely buggered.
00:46:24
>> And um and I knew I had to get out um otherwise I was just going to die, >> if you know what I mean. And I I I had
00:46:35
some good mates. David Pickering and his wife Justine. He was the manager of the
00:46:39
team, ex all all ex Welsh captain. And Rayan and I sat around the table and discussed it and decided that I would
00:46:48
resign. I had still had 18 months of the contract to go. >> Yeah. Do you do you think it was just
00:46:53
the Lions thing that took it out of you and doing the Lions thing, coaching Wales and just the the the exhaustion
00:46:59
of, you know, maybe having that split or division within the team, just everything just a cumulative effect?
00:47:04
>> Yeah, I think so. >> Yeah. >> I thought I was bulletproof. >> As you do. Yeah.
00:47:08
>> Yeah. And I wasn't. And I was told uh don't do it. And ever since then, the Lions coach has had a year's leave of
00:47:15
absence from their normal job. So Warren Gatlin, for example, who's coached the Lions a couple of times, who's a Welsh
00:47:21
coach, he would have a year's leave of absence from Wales and just do the Lions. So they did learn a bit from
00:47:26
that. Um, which is nice. >> Yeah. >> That you were the guinea pig. >> But you know, it's just accumulation and
00:47:34
I just cuz I used to drive it from the front was which was wrong. I should have involved the other people a lot more
00:47:42
particularly the players and that was the big learning. M >> so from that adversity I look back on it
00:47:48
and think hell if that hadn't happened >> um we wouldn't have done the same things
00:47:53
with the All Blacks you know it changed the way I coached it changed the way I thought about
00:47:58
>> the players and the team and the rest of the management so it was a massive learning experience
00:48:05
>> um >> so >> difficult at the time >> but no I look back and think yeah good time
00:48:14
>> difficult but Yeah. Yeah. These things are difficult, but when you Yeah. When you get through
00:48:18
them and have some um clarity at the other end or see the light at the end of the tunnel, however you want to frame
00:48:23
it, it works out for the best. But yeah, what what did Yeah. What did the depression look like for you cuz it's
00:48:29
quite a you know cuz I um I went through some mental health stuff myself maybe about five or six years ago in my
00:48:34
mid-40s and it's quite alarming when you go through life without any of this sort
00:48:37
of stuff and then suddenly it happens. >> Oh, I just didn't want to connect with
00:48:41
people. >> Mhm. >> Head away, lie on my bed reading books. Yeah, selfisolate. >> Isolation. Um,
00:48:48
>> and I just couldn't get myself up to do that. Like I You need to be pumped on
00:48:53
your toes on edge to do it right. Well, I did. Right. >> I could tell you some stories, Don, but
00:49:01
I I won't won't bore the public, but um no, I I knew that I had like health is everything
00:49:09
>> and I knew I had to get out of there. >> I had 18 months in my contract. I was
00:49:14
being paid a,000 New Zealand a million New Zealand dollars a year. Um, so it wasn't giving away something that was
00:49:21
not significant. Did you >> But I had to get out. >> Did you Did you um Yeah, you mentioned
00:49:27
um a guy before that you could talk to. Did you Did you see any therapist or anything?
00:49:31
>> No. >> But you did you have like a a team mental skills coach or anything in Wales
00:49:35
that you could have spoken to or was >> No. >> No. So just a couple of friends that you
00:49:39
sort of did you mainly sort of bottle it up? No, I >> work it out internally yourself.
00:49:46
>> I just knew I've been driving myself for a long time. >> Yeah. >> With Oakland and the Blues and the Welsh
00:49:54
and the Lions. I just knew that I had to get have some space. >> Mhm. >> Um and I had no space.
00:50:02
>> Yeah. >> And the only way I could get space was not do the job anymore. I still bloody
00:50:08
passionate about rugby coaching. So I just made a decision made a decision to resign and the Welsh
00:50:16
Rugby Union were fantastic. >> They're very supportive. >> Did did Did people know something was up
00:50:21
or do you think you wore quite a good mask? I've had I've had um your old mate um S John Kuwan on the podcast and he
00:50:26
talked about like wearing a mask and how he wore a mask. >> I don't I don't think I even thought
00:50:32
about that. >> Yeah. >> Um you just know in your gut that it's time to move. So I coached 37
00:50:41
tests for Wales and three for the Lions. 40 tests. Um and you know I just knew that I needed some
00:50:50
space. >> Mhm. >> To get myself right. And you know I'd burnt the bridges. So it was a hell of a big decision.
00:50:58
>> Oh the burnt bridges as in New Zealand. >> Yeah. >> Well to be fair. Well I feel like
00:51:03
>> they sort of they sort of burnt the bridges. Right. Like David Moff from the New Zealand Rugby Union. They they left
00:51:08
you painted in a corner with no option. >> No. Well, they they told me if I'd ever
00:51:12
coach I coached overseas international rugby and never coach in this country country again.
00:51:18
>> So I I'd made the decision to go to Wales and I knew that was the decision. >> So it was a hell of a big decision
00:51:27
but the team was much more important than me and you know I knew that I needed to get some space. And Rayan
00:51:35
stayed cuz she was coaching the Welsh net team to a World Cup in Jamaica. So she stayed. I came home. I went back to
00:51:43
Christ Church. We had a house in Oakuckland. Oh, actually you're you're skipping out one bit, I think. Um yeah,
00:51:49
she was coaching in um Singapore and you went to visit her and she she sent you off to your old groomsman who happened
00:51:56
to live in Singapore cuz she's like, "I'm busy." You overlooked that bit. Got you now
00:52:03
locked up. you've done your homework. Now, when I was going through this depression,
00:52:08
>> yeah, >> Rowan was in Singapore with the Welsh Nipple team in a preWorld Cup tournament
00:52:16
and I was sitting at home by myself. I thought, "Oh, bucker this." So, I jumped on a plane from Heathrow, went to
00:52:23
Singapore, walked into the hotel, said, "Good day. How you going?" I said, "Hell." And my one of our mates
00:52:30
lived in Singapore. He was a groomsman at our wedding. So I spent a bit of time with him and then we went to Phuket.
00:52:37
>> Yeah. >> Thailand. And went to the beach for a week. >> Got my toes in the sand and relaxed and
00:52:46
>> went back from there to Wales and still still wasn't right. >> Were you okay Pooky? Cuz I when I had
00:52:53
John Hart on the podcast, he said the same sort of thing like after he he fell into depression after the 99 World Cup
00:52:59
and his wife took him to dinner for a while. Um but there's that saying um wherever you go there you are. So
00:53:06
whatever's going you can be on the nicest beach in the world but >> Yeah. Yeah. Um no so it didn't work.
00:53:12
>> Yeah. >> But she was fantastic as always. Came back to Wales went through the process
00:53:18
of getting out. Um, and as I said, the Welsh Rugby Union was fantastic. And she stayed and I went back to Christ
00:53:27
Church, uh, where my parents were, and I took them to Akaroa and I ran the forest in Akaroa.
00:53:34
>> Mhm. >> Every day. And it's amazing the connection between the physical and the
00:53:38
mental and I started to come right. I started to started to relax and feel good. And then I got a phone call from
00:53:46
Japan uh from was it a university? Would you come and coach us? So it gave me an
00:53:53
opportunity to get back on the bike. And the Japanese only ask you when they're good.
00:53:57
>> So I knew they'll be a good side >> cuz they they wouldn't you know they couldn't do that unless they had a great
00:54:03
side. And I I coached them with David Young who happened to be the captain of the Welsh team when I was coaching prop
00:54:09
forward and a very funny man, a good man. So we had for a long time probably a couple of months in in Japan
00:54:17
>> and they won the Japanese university title as they were always going to do and I trained every morning
00:54:25
>> with David coached every afternoon. So back on the bike and started to feel bloody good again.
00:54:33
>> I just start to get your confidence back and get a bit of momentum. >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:54:38
>> What do you think? Um well clear you'll close the the chapter on this in a second but um biggest learnings about
00:54:44
yourself in this time and any silver linings from depression. >> Oh I think the big thing I learned it
00:54:50
wasn't about me you know the coaching it it was about them >> and I had to involve
00:54:57
um more of the management and the senior players and the driving of the team. >> So I think that was the biggest learning
00:55:03
curve. I couldn't drive it by myself. In fact, I was sitting with um um Clive Woodward after an England game and he
00:55:13
and we're on the same table, black tie dinner after Six Nations game at Twickenham and he's got eight guys
00:55:22
around him and I've got three and he said, "Ted, you don't think you three can beat us eight, do you?"
00:55:32
You know, so and you look at what they're doing today. There's there's a large number of specialist coaches.
00:55:39
>> Anyway, the biggest learning I had was one, it was about them, not about me, >> you know, and the more I could involve
00:55:47
them and give them ownership and responsibility, the better I would be and the better they would be.
00:55:53
>> And the second thing I learned is that I had to look after myself. Mhm. >> And so I developed a personal game plan
00:56:00
of of self-preservation if you like >> or self um feeling good mentally. So mental health, physical health. So I did
00:56:09
a lot of exercise. >> And as I said to you before Dom huge connection between the mental and the
00:56:15
physical >> uh having good mentors. So I started to talk to a lot of people few people. John
00:56:22
Graham was a good mate. you know, we'd gone through a lot together. I he'd been very helpful over the years. Um, and he
00:56:31
he he was a hell of a good mentor. Spent time talking to him. Jock Hobbs, who was
00:56:37
the chair of New Zealand Rugby. Chris Doy, you probably heard of. He was a good mate of mine at school. We taught
00:56:44
together at Oakland Grammar School. He was an opera singer. Um, he came back from Asia, from Austria. We we used to
00:56:52
have long lunches >> and talk challenge. He was fantastic. So, a lot of good mentors
00:56:59
um and just getting away, you know, getting >> I spent a lot of time up in Russell
00:57:06
>> up in over way hickeyi just chilling, fishing, >> relaxing, connecting with nature. I'm
00:57:12
I'm so pleased that you found um I'm I'm a massive fan of running. I'm so pleased
00:57:16
that you found um you know your mental well-being again in the um in the trails of Akaroa. That's cool.
00:57:23
>> Yeah. And it was and it was um like my parents in those days were in their 80s.
00:57:29
>> Yeah. In their 80s and and so they were getting older. We had been and I hadn't
00:57:35
seen them for a while. So just spending some time with them. But you know that as I said I can't emphasize enough
00:57:42
exercise and mental mental health. a massive correlation. >> Yeah. And and talking about things and
00:57:49
showing vulnerability. It's not something um you or I in our generations growing up we're ever sort of
00:57:54
>> No. No. And and and being able to like John Raywin John Ram Hobbs those guys, you know, fantastic
00:58:04
>> just to be older. And and then when I got involved in the all blacks, Gilbert
00:58:08
and Oka >> M >> uh who was a mental skills coach, we used to meet every night and discuss the
00:58:13
day and how it went and how we can improve tomorrow and >> um you know just just sharing sharing
00:58:22
and sharing ideas, sharing your thoughts, sharing your vulnerability. uh using helping making sure those guys
00:58:32
were right and center making sure they're were very much part of the future >> you know Wayne Smith Steve Hansen
00:58:40
Gilbert Anoka Mike Cron >> and the All Blacks. >> Yeah. >> Well, thanks for opening up about that
00:58:46
stuff. Yes. So, we're at the part now where you become all black coach. So, the dream that you had for your entire
00:58:52
life um you even outlived the Henry Claus. So you get the job in 2003 after the World Cup or 2004 after the World
00:59:03
Cup. Who do you who do you replace? Is it John Mitchell? No. >> Yes, it's John Mitchell. But it was I
00:59:08
went to the Rugby World Cup and where I meant to be coaching the Welsh. Steve Hansen took over. So I gave him the
00:59:15
poison chalice or so to speak. um he took over the Welsh, but I was there as a as a tour
00:59:24
leader of a group of supporters, Rayan and I, and we watched the All Blacks play and obviously
00:59:32
um they got beaten in a semi-final in Sydney. >> And you know, but what really happened
00:59:41
was that the 203 Rugby World Cup was meant to be in Australia and New Zealand. Have I mentioned this already?
00:59:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. about the um the signage in the stadium. So it was in Australia. So the whole uh INZ AU board
00:59:52
got the X. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and the CEO and Henry Claus was lost. So I was that was great.
00:59:59
And then you know I got involved in Oakland Rugby again. Um I went from a million dollars to $20,000.
01:00:07
We bit of a drop. >> It's like going from being a a breakfast radio broadcaster to a podcaster.
01:00:13
>> I don't know any about that, but that's okay. And so I and the Oakland and the
01:00:17
Blues teams had a good time over that period of time when I came back and won three championships in a row and I
01:00:24
applied for the All Blacks and >> and John Mitchell who was a bloody good coach and I were the only two who
01:00:30
applied for the job and I managed to get the job. >> Well, yeah. Well, well at that stage um
01:00:36
if you lost a World Cup you were done, weren't you? >> Yeah. And usually at that stage
01:00:42
>> Yeah. You only get one shot at it until until you came. Yeah. So, so you become
01:00:47
coach uh 2004. Um you had a good when when did Richie and Dan and those guys come along?
01:00:54
>> When did you first come across those guys as coach? Was it around this time? >> Yeah. Well, Richie first played I think
01:01:00
in 2011. >> Oh, yeah. So, you inherited Roger. Yeah. >> And he was a kid then. I think he
01:01:05
probably 20 or 19 or 20. Um, so he had played quite a bit of all black rugby. Dan started I he started
01:01:14
the year before me. Um, but he was a inside center, second 5'8. Senior is mainly a second 58 in those days. Um,
01:01:26
yeah, but it was good to have those men along. They were quite good. >> They they weren't bad, were they?
01:01:32
>> To be fair, they helped along by a good coach. >> They were pretty helpful. Yeah. But I think the big thing is that
01:01:38
we uh we had a like minds. You know, I was lucky enough to to get Wayne Smith and
01:01:44
Steve Hansen to help and Mike Cron >> who was the Ford coach. Uh Graeme Low who was the conditioning coach.
01:01:53
>> Um Gilbert, sports psychologist. Um, so we had a good nucleus and we were like-minded
01:02:02
>> about team driven culture rather than than coachdriven culture. >> So >> yeah, where did that sort of thinking
01:02:10
come from? Yeah. The the whole leadership group and everything else. >> Well, that came from from from me.
01:02:15
>> Yeah. >> It didn't necessarily come from me cuz we're likeminded, >> but it came from the Welsh and Lions
01:02:22
experience >> knowing that it was not about me, it was about them. still a wee bit about me, but a lot more
01:02:30
about them. So, it's like driving the bus from the back of the bus instead of the front of the bus.
01:02:36
>> Yeah. >> And you're developing the people in front of you, giving them the right
01:02:40
education and skills to take responsibility and ownership >> and um but that take a while to to to
01:02:50
mold in cuz you get the All Blacks in my time. Yeah, we we we met on a Sunday and
01:02:56
you play your first test on the Saturday. We're playing England in an >> Eden. >> Just like um Razer is doing this
01:03:03
weekend. >> Uh so that was 20 years ago. >> Same opposition. I'm going to need got to be there. Uh
01:03:15
>> yeah. Who? Yeah. Do you still enjoy going and watching the games? >> Oh, hell yes.
01:03:19
>> Where will you be sitting? Who will you be with? >> I'll be with the Alicadoo. I'll be with
01:03:25
>> so I'm going hospitality. >> Uh but it's just a parallel you know my when I was a coach the first test I was
01:03:33
involved in was England Indonesian. >> All right. >> Yeah. >> And and Rais's first test is England and
01:03:41
Deneden. >> So it's only 20 years ago. Um, so I just want to be there >> and um like it's part of you
01:03:51
>> and I just hope >> DNA >> I just hope it has a great start. So >> um yeah so but in those days you know
01:04:00
you didn't have any lead in so you meet on a Sunday you play on the Saturday >> and that goes on for quite a while and
01:04:08
we finish up in this first series of games uh in Johannesburg and this is the end of the tri nations
01:04:16
when we all won our home tests. Australia had won their home test. New Zealand won their home test and South
01:04:23
Africa had won their one home test. So we're playing South Africa in Johannesburg and it's 2004 and it's the
01:04:33
10th anniversary of Freedom Day in South Africa. >> So aparttheide was abolished in 1994
01:04:40
and it's massive. Alice Park, Joeberg. Every seat's got a drum on it and a scarf and the drum has got spring box
01:04:49
colors and the scarf spring box scarf and Nelson Mandela walks out onto Ellis Park and congratulates the Spring Box on
01:04:58
their selection, wishes them well. >> And I'm sitting in the coaches box with Smithy and Steve. I'm thinking hell,
01:05:05
this is out of the game. and Nelson Mandela like we play for the Freedom Cup which is really about the change you
01:05:13
know and and you you feel really uh it's a really good thing to be involved in. >> Yeah.
01:05:24
>> And um but we get beaten. So, we get finished last in the Tri Nations on points for and against.
01:05:35
And we go back to the team hotel and we have a we have a court session and it's not very good. It's pretty
01:05:44
ugly. Court, you know what a court session is? >> Yeah. Like from old club rugby days,
01:05:47
it's like a drinking session, drinking games. And >> that was part of the all black culture,
01:05:51
right? >> Which I'm not criticizing that. It was just part >> part of the time, >> part of the tradition.
01:05:56
and it didn't it doesn't finish up that well. It's pretty ugly. >> What sort of what sort of things were
01:06:02
happening in court? >> Oh, you don't you don't need to know all that stuff. But so we had a judge and a
01:06:07
jury in compulsory drinking and I'm thinking how this is not good in the professional period. We need to be
01:06:14
better than this. Go back to go back to New Zealand, call a meeting at head office and um and discuss where we're
01:06:25
at. And so how do you enjoy playing with the All Blacks boys? You know, got 10 senior
01:06:31
players. Oh, we feel very privileged. Um, we feel, you know, we feel very grateful, but we don't enjoy the culture
01:06:40
and we don't enjoy the expectation, which was a massive statement from the senior players.
01:06:47
>> And that was the that was gold. It was the catalyst for immediate change. And
01:06:53
then we had the time because we had two or three months before the end of your tour. And so we put in a leadership
01:06:59
group, set a purpose, set up the culture, uh discuss it with the team. It became
01:07:06
reasonably strong, solid, concrete, always for change of course, but and that was the start of the of the team
01:07:16
driven culture really >> and it it proved very successful. You know, we had some hiccups. 207.
01:07:23
>> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Had some hiccups, but in the main, you know, it was it was it got it gave
01:07:31
players ownership and responsibility. >> Uh, and they were fantastic, you know, and the more ownership and
01:07:38
responsibility they got, the better they played. >> Yeah. You mentioned um with a ry smile
01:07:44
just a second ago about the hiccups in 2007. Um, do you want to have a look at another photo?
01:07:50
Yeah. Yeah. >> You don't even want to touch that. >> Yeah, I've seen that. >> Just about put that one in the fire.
01:08:01
Yeah. How do you How do you feel when you see it? Is it? >> Does it Does it bring back any any sort
01:08:08
of emotion or feeling of that day? >> Oh, yeah. No, it was the hardest day of our lives, I think.
01:08:12
>> Yeah. So, that was um Yeah. when you guys were knocked out of the 2007 World Cup with that um just remarkable um for
01:08:20
numerous reasons game against France. Um and Richie's book, The Open Side, he he
01:08:25
said it was just like a moment that was captured by camera. Looks like he's crying, but he he wasn't. He was just
01:08:31
wiping away some sweat or something. Um yeah, now that was at the press conference after the game.
01:08:37
>> Yeah. >> And as you could imagine, there was, you know, a couple of hundred people in the
01:08:41
press conference. There's probably 20 television companies there and it's like we were favorites to win. So we had a
01:08:50
very successful run into the Rugby World Cup in 207. We got a bit complacent to be fair.
01:08:57
>> You know, we we had beaten the French by a big score not not long before the Rugby World Cup in 207.
01:09:06
>> And so we got ahead of ourselves, you know, and complacency is the biggest evil
01:09:11
>> in business. and sport I guess and we got complacent. Um and you know it was a difficult game because
01:09:21
the officiating in the game was not normally what how we had experienced it and so the boys found that difficult.
01:09:30
Um and so they froze most of them choked and we got you know we got beaten 20 points to 18 and
01:09:41
>> at the end of the day you know that was another huge learning curve and it probably was the was a foundation
01:09:51
to winning rugby world cup with a bit of luck in 211 and 215. M well there is that saying you learn more
01:09:58
from your your fails than from any successes, right? But how did you how did you manage to break history and you
01:10:05
keep the job after that? Cuz as we mentioned before with every single World Cup since um the start of that
01:10:11
tournament in 1987, you had one shot at it and then you were you were gone. You were out baby was out with the bath
01:10:17
water. So was it because you still had the support of the players? Like how did you manage to keep the job and get a
01:10:24
second crack at it? Oh, I think you know we had a hell of a good record. Um, to be frank, we had a very good record in
01:10:31
the in the previous three years. In fact, I'd say in 2056 and seven, we probably won 90% of our tests. The
01:10:41
players supported us and I had Smithy and Steve and Conno and Gilbert and they supported the management team. They're
01:10:50
probably all better than me, but that's that's that's part of the deal, you know. Um, so the players wanted that
01:10:58
management team to continue, including the coaches, and I think that was probably a big
01:11:04
thing. >> Uh, the game itself, you know, the the quarterfinal we get beaten, there was
01:11:11
although, you know, I'm not making excuses, but there was the refereeing in that game and the and was questionable.
01:11:19
M >> let's not go any further cuz it's people get very sensitive about these things.
01:11:25
>> Um um you know so there was a few few gray areas there. I I was I was amazed that we were reappointed.
01:11:36
>> Um I went to Wellington with Rayan went through the interview did an interview.
01:11:41
Well, we went out that night, which we usually do, and had a couple of wines and a nice meal and said, "Well, were we
01:11:48
looking for something else to do?" >> Back to Japan, maybe. Or >> Oh, well, you know, yeah. And and I got
01:11:55
you when Job said, "You've been reappointed the next morning. I went to the New Zealand rugby. You couldn't
01:12:01
knock me over with a feather." >> But again, you know, from that adversity, you learn and and we learned
01:12:08
we learned a lot. you know, we we were got ahead of ourselves. We got complacent.
01:12:14
Um, the unexpected happened in that game. We learned from the unexpected. We had a we had a a policy for 211 Rugby
01:12:24
World Cup. The unexpected will happen. Handle it. >> And funny enough, we had some unexpected
01:12:30
in 211. And we had um Kerry Evans come in and help us. So, Gilbert got Kerry Evans to help us. And Kerry Evans was a
01:12:39
psychiatrist, >> an ex New Zealand football captain and a black belt in karate. And he talked about he he worked with us
01:12:48
on the mental strength side of the team. And those two little those two things made a massive difference to us and
01:12:57
helped us win in 211. >> Smashed the French 87. one point, one huge point that um that
01:13:05
tournament that Oh, I can't imagine what that tournament was like for you cuz it
01:13:10
was it just felt like everything was falling apart. You know, I remember at the beginning of the tournament there
01:13:15
there was shots of like Aaron Crudin in the grand stand drinking beer in Wellington, not even in the frame.
01:13:20
Steven Donald was out white baiting. Um Dan went out injured. Richie had a broken foot. Like, oh, there was
01:13:27
incidents with like Zack and Cory Jane and um who else was it? Is he taking like from a coach's perspective and a
01:13:36
former headmaster? You must have been like, "What the hell is going on around me?" No, it were the unexpected. You
01:13:41
know, we had Richie with a broken metatarsal in his foot and and Deb Robinson, the doctor, she was and the
01:13:48
medical staff are fantastic. He didn't train for a month. Unexpected, handle it. And
01:13:54
>> Richie and I didn't discuss his foot cuz we'd have to make a decision. So, >> what what do you mean you didn't discuss
01:14:00
his foot? We didn't discuss his foot. We didn't talk about Richie's foot between
01:14:05
the two of us. Left it to the medical staff. They said he was okay. He didn't train, played.
01:14:12
Um then we had all his injuries to the playmaker to the 5'8 position. So Dan rips the he ducted tenon off the bone
01:14:20
and in the practice before the Canadian round robin game, the last round robin game, he's going to captain the site for
01:14:25
the first time and that was massive, you know, and he's out of the tournament. I remember going into the dressing shed
01:14:33
after he'd done that and said, "Look fellas, the unexpected has happened. We've we've planned for this. Dan's out
01:14:41
of the tournament. Colin Slade will be superb. will go up 5% and play for Dan. And then Aaron Cruden came in, right? So
01:14:50
he wasn't in the team. >> No, he was drinking beers at a pool match in Wellington.
01:14:55
>> Well, I don't want to know that. >> I might have to walk out of this interview now. I don't I don't want to
01:15:02
know what Aaron Crudin was doing out of the All Blacks. It's immaterial. So he came in
01:15:09
he came in and he was just a kid you know um still a nappies really 19 year old guy in a rugby world cup as the
01:15:18
playmaker in this in the corner of the shots very talented Aaron very talented player
01:15:25
good athlete but young and then Colin Stace gets injured in the first quarterfinal the quarterfinal
01:15:32
against the Argentinians he's out of the tournament need to Find Beaver. Need to
01:15:37
find Steve Donald. Can't find him. Rang a young lady who knew him. Knew him well. Now his wife. Said, "Where's
01:15:46
Beaver? He's white baiting Ted. I'll get him to ring you." Beaver rings me. What are you doing? White baiting.
01:15:54
How much you got? 8 kilos. 8. That's be correct. If you bring that to the Heritage Hotel
01:16:02
in Oakland, Beaver, you can play in the final of the Rugby World Cup. About 3 hours later, knock on the door.
01:16:10
Beaver comes in with a chili bin. Perry Whippy grabs it, cooks a white bait meal
01:16:16
for this team, and the rest is history. >> I've heard you. >> So, Aaron Aaron Cruden gets injured in
01:16:22
the final. So, we beat the Australians and play well in the semi. Aaron Crudin gets injured in the final.
01:16:29
Beaver comes on, wins the game for us. >> Uh like he was he he went through hell, Steve
01:16:38
Donald. >> Yeah. Through PE from the from people and the media cuz he had a he had a a
01:16:45
poor game against Australia and Hong Kong. Cost us the game perhaps. I love him. Fantastic guy. Bright knows
01:16:54
the game. comes in um comes in on the final boys walk towards him, embrace him, love him
01:17:04
because he's a great team guy and he wins the game for us. Kicks the winning goal plays out of his skin. Now he's
01:17:09
written a book, had a movie made of him, >> he'll probably be the next prime minister, I'd say.
01:17:15
>> Yeah. How do Yeah. Like how do you reflect on that? cuz it's like um you know just like one point in it lucky
01:17:23
kick or whatever or lucky opportunity for Steven Donald to have the chance to redeem himself. Um but if he if he
01:17:29
missed that kick he'd still be you know not respected by the New Zealand public as you would be as well. It seems almost
01:17:38
quite cynical in a way doesn't it? Do you know what I mean? >> He didn't miss it.
01:17:42
>> Yeah. >> No I guess I suppose thinking it had things been different. Well, there's a
01:17:48
very fine line, isn't there? I've got to go, mate. >> Oh, do you? >> Yeah. Um, you know, I think we're just
01:17:53
about done, haven't we? >> Okay, we're just just about done. Yeah. Um, >> sorry.
01:17:57
>> Okay. Oh, no, that's all right. I I just find you captivating. I could have Yeah.
01:18:00
talked talked for ages. Um, in the um in the back of your book, you say the Rugby
01:18:06
World Cup is the Holy Grail. That's what gives you peace. Has it given you peace?
01:18:10
>> Oh, for sure. >> Yeah. like the feeling after the final walking on to Eden Park
01:18:18
just you just feel at peace >> and it's probably the first time in 8 years you feel an absolute peace because
01:18:25
>> you always know there's another game and another game so I >> I was lucky enough to coach the backs
01:18:30
for 103 tests >> and I had made up my mind that that was I was 66 young >> I was I was
01:18:41
>> you had the pension coming in. You didn't need a job. >> No, but I felt young and I still feel
01:18:46
youngish. >> Um, but I and it was time to move and I was I was so grateful for that opportunity.
01:18:55
>> But it it was amazing how how you feel and then Raymond walked onto the field
01:19:02
and you just saw the relief in her face. >> Actually, this might be a photo you prepared to hold.
01:19:08
>> Yeah, that's the photo. >> Yeah. the relief in her face. I get emotional looking at that.
01:19:15
>> Um because you know, you're married to this wonderful lady who had got no control
01:19:24
really, you know, and you know, we wondered if we could live in this country if we got beaten in 211.
01:19:32
And uh we love New Zealand. as our country. But you and I can see what Hardy was talking about.
01:19:40
Um like there's a huge amount of scrutiny and I could tell you stories for hours about the scrutiny and people
01:19:46
hiding around your house and hiding under hiding behind the heads trying to get you know anyway let's not go there.
01:19:55
And so there's a huge amount of relief. Um and it's all part and parcel of the job. I guess
01:20:04
>> shouldn't be though, should it? >> Um, >> to a degree it should, but >> well, some of those things shouldn't
01:20:09
happen, but you know, when you're all black coach that you're going to go through
01:20:14
some >> some examination and some scrutiny. Um, but you know, you wouldn't change it for
01:20:21
quits. >> Well, it's been a hell of a career. And one last photo, this one they say
01:20:27
there's that saying behind every great man is a great woman. >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't know where that's
01:20:33
been taken. Um, but she's you've you've you've married well, eh? You've done good.
01:20:40
>> I have. What would what would she about say about you? Greatest um strengths,
01:20:44
greatest flaws. >> Oh, she'd probably go on about my flaws for hours, but >> No, no. I think, you know, we were very
01:20:52
lucky. I'm very lucky. Um cuz she's been so supportive and know you couldn't have
01:20:58
done it otherwise. M >> um like you go through some real challenges and we mentioned the
01:21:05
depression >> after the lines to her. >> Um oh I've got so much you know so much
01:21:13
respect and gratitude and now it's 54 years >> incredible and I I see you guys around.
01:21:21
I see you guys around. You're holding hands. You're drinking wine. Um you're you're laughing. It's um I don't I mean
01:21:28
it's inspirational like in terms of a partnership. It's couple goals. >> Um you know I remember
01:21:34
before the 211 final I went home on the Saturday night. It was a Sunday game. >> Mhm.
01:21:41
>> I think I'm right. And I couldn't do nothing in the pub. We just sitting there festering waiting for
01:21:49
the game. >> Mhm. >> And we we were living in St. Heli is and we walk around the waterfront cuz I
01:21:56
always walk before the game. It relaxes me. >> Mhm. >> Well, it meant to relax me. So, you're
01:22:03
just doing exercise. Make you feel good. Pass some time. And walking past people
01:22:08
and they're looking at me thinking, "What's he doing out here? Why isn't he with the All Blacks?"
01:22:14
And uh I mean, we work for walk for three and a half hours before a game in Wellington once. It's just what you did,
01:22:21
you know, where we have a chat and catch up because you you're away all week. >> You might have been away for weeks and
01:22:28
just nice to be able to chat and talk to your mate, you know, about >> other things rather than rugby.
01:22:35
>> Take your mind off it for a while. Uh, no, >> I I can't I can't speak highly enough.
01:22:43
>> She is your mate. She's your best mate, eh? >> Correct. >> Yeah. Hey, Ted Sue Graham Henry. Thank
01:22:49
you so much for your time. Um, I really appreciate it and um, yeah, yeah, just thanks thanks for everything you've done
01:22:56
for New Zealand Rugby and just thanks for being a just a just a good man. Oh, I I feel very fortunate that I had that
01:23:03
opportunity. Thank you.