00:00:00
It's kind of ridiculous really the role that rugby in particular has played in
00:00:03
my life. >> I never realized just the extent of your career and the stuff you've done until I
00:00:07
was researching this. It's really impressive. >> Early on that were tough decisions like
00:00:10
whether to leave New Zealand rugby and go play rugby league. >> Have you found as you get into this
00:00:14
chapter of your life, you've gotten more emotional before these games, you know,
00:00:18
you you get in a circle. The coach comes in, has a final word before we get on the bus and head off to the ground
00:00:23
talking to the team and everything. And get on the bus and everyone gets up and he goes, "You two come here." Bot and I
00:00:28
kind of wander over to him. He goes, "You two are by far the biggest bloody
00:00:31
weak link. Don't this up." So basically, we sat down. They said, "Okay, Craig, if
00:00:35
you sign a ARIRL contract, this will be in your bank account within the next 7 days, and this will be your minimum
00:00:41
retainer." So you're looking at this just going, "Jesus, it's a no-brainer."
00:00:44
Um, do you have any regrets? >> Craig Inis Posty, welcome to my podcast. >> Nice to be here, mate.
00:00:53
>> Mate, finally, we made this happen. I was going back through our DMs. You've
00:00:56
been you've been a slippery guest. You've been quite reluctant. Well, it's
00:00:58
just I guess it's a matter of just finding that time, you know, spending a lot of time in the Hogs Bay these days,
00:01:03
of course, and just, you know, time to be up here. But it's nice to actually be
00:01:06
down and actually having a chat with you rather than just kind of waving from afar as you're uh kind of off on one of
00:01:12
your tres around the city. So, um yeah, no, nice to be here. you and I have known each other sort of, you know, I
00:01:18
suppose briefly or in passing for um many years now, but I never realized just sort of to the extent of your your
00:01:25
career and the stuff you've done until I was researching this, it's really
00:01:28
impressive. >> Oh, it's Well, thanks, mate. Um yeah, look I guess uh you know I was I was
00:01:34
thinking about it recently just you know the the uh the role that rugby in particular has played in my life and uh
00:01:41
it's kind of ridiculous really you know from starting off as a as a you know
00:01:45
5-year-old running around bare feet through to um you know professional rugby then the rugby league and and then
00:01:52
finally into a career on the on the management side. So, uh, it's kind of sad in some ways, I guess, that, um,
00:01:59
there's probably hasn't been too many days where rugby hasn't kind of come
00:02:02
into my mind in some shape or form, but, uh, but yeah, look, it's it's been
00:02:06
awesome. It's been a it's been an awesome ride. >> Yeah. So, there's sort of, I suppose,
00:02:11
three big chunks to the story. There's, um, the rugby stuff, including the All
00:02:14
Blacks, then there's the league stuff, which includes um, what's now known as
00:02:17
like an NRL win. Y >> um, and then the player management stuff. And, and they're all great
00:02:21
stories in their own right. There's actually I was thinking about it when I was researching yesterday a recent
00:02:25
podcast guest Martin Snedd and there's parallels with you and him. >> Um like an incredible sporting career
00:02:30
followed by an amazing career in sort of sports management or behind the scenes.
00:02:34
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. First of all, who who gave you the nickname Posty? What does that mean?
00:02:38
>> Uh it's you know that always delivers. >> Yeah. Well, I'd like to think it was you
00:02:43
know but unfortunately that that's not the not the case. But uh no when I came
00:02:47
out of school I was given I was on a a sevens tour with with Maris or Marrist and um it was actually John Cuan came up
00:02:55
with the name and it was it was just a a name association with um Glenn and this
00:02:59
where you know I went to school at Sacred Heart. something had happened that particular week at the the post
00:03:04
office had been bloody robbed or some some carry on and uh from then on in I was just posty and unfortunately you
00:03:12
know I went off to England and and uh John Gallagher was there at Leads uh so he you know he was calling me Posty so
00:03:18
all the all the Pommy boys were pulse there you know I was posty there and then of course over at Manly and Richie
00:03:23
was there calling me Posty as well so it's just followed me wherever I've gone
00:03:28
>> so who calls you Craig now and who calls you Posty is a 5050 or >> um yeah I mean like yeah it's it's funny
00:03:36
like a lot of people that I've never met before you know like oh good day posty
00:03:39
you know um so yeah u it's uh it's it's not going anywhere I don't mind it's you
00:03:45
know it's quite nice to have a nickname I guess um but uh but it certainly followed me everywhere.
00:03:50
>> So you're in Oakuckland for a big dinner this weekend like a reunion dinner with
00:03:54
um a bunch of your Oakland teammates. Will they all call you Posty? Uh yeah, it's not it's not so much it's not a
00:04:00
dinner. We we we catch up on a you know every year at Christmas time for a few drinks. The old um you know that 80s 90s
00:04:06
uh Rley Shield team uh which is Richard's call you know Bernie McChall's
00:04:11
usually the instigator organized and that but no it's nothing formal mate. It's just to get together down at
00:04:16
Swashbucklers just to you know see how the year's gone for everyone and and kind of catch up and reminisce a little
00:04:21
bit and um yeah usually get a good turnout. So we're doing that I think on Friday. So, it's it's cool that you do
00:04:27
that cuz it does get harder as you get older, and you have commitments and families and whatever else going on.
00:04:32
>> Yeah, it does. And and it it is a cool thing to do. And actually, uh this year
00:04:36
I I was in Sydney and managed to catch up with a few of my old manly mates. And um you know, like I hadn't seen them uh
00:04:42
this particular bunch of guys for, you know, over 20 years. But it was like yesterday, you know, it was like we, you
00:04:48
know, we we we'd run off the field the day, you know, like um I think when you've got those shared kind of
00:04:54
experiences and you know, you've kind of gone to battle together and and um you
00:04:58
know, when you do catch up, it's it's it's like it was yesterday and that's
00:05:01
what it'll be like on Friday. >> When when you get to do you spend much
00:05:04
time reminiscing or not really are you sort of too busy looking forward? >> Yeah. Not not I guess as you get older
00:05:10
you you kind of do a little bit. you kind of, you know, like now and again if one of those old um bit of bits of
00:05:16
footage or whatever turn up on social media or whatever, it's quite cool to kind of have a bit of a reminisce, but
00:05:21
no, not not not particularly like um you know, there's a lot there's a lot going
00:05:26
on and a lot to look forward to and uh you know, I guess it's it's it's a
00:05:30
portion of your life that was pretty cool. Um, but then you're kind of moving
00:05:34
on to the next thing and and I guess you know in the in the management game it's
00:05:38
it's it's kind of hard to get that across to the to the younger guys who
00:05:41
are right in the thick of it that um you know it's for a limited time and then
00:05:45
it's just going to become a really small part of your life hopefully. So make the
00:05:49
most of it while you where you've got it. >> You mentioned old footage just a second
00:05:54
ago and something that's um come along actually since you've retired is YouTube. So, there's old footage that's
00:06:00
available at your fingertips um on your phone when you're in an Uber, anytime
00:06:03
you want. And I I've watched a lot of old footage of you in the last couple of
00:06:07
days. >> That um second try you scored on All Black De, was that a forward pass?
00:06:11
>> Yeah, I think it probably was. >> Yeah, I think it probably was, you know,
00:06:17
if we're being honest. Um yeah, I think the TMO definitely would have pulled
00:06:20
that one up uh if that happened next week. But um but he wasn't there. Oh, no. Actually, he wasn't legit.
00:06:28
>> It counts on the record books, so that's all that matters. But this is going to
00:06:32
be so much fun. There's so much to talk about. So, um Craig Ross and us born
00:06:37
10th of September 1969 in New Plymouth. Um earliest memories. >> Uh earliest me. Well, we went we went
00:06:44
and uh um dad was a stock agent um um uh in Okado just just out of um Plymouth. We went there along uh the mom and dad
00:06:55
were from down there but um we moved to Tamutu uh while I was quite young u for dad's work and and that's really where
00:07:02
the I guess the the rugby kind of journey started there. Dad was a player. He played for tell me the old boys and
00:07:08
um so earliest memories I guess are just kind of running around you know I was one of those typical kids with my
00:07:13
brothers and friends running around the the rugby club you know uh after games um and uh and yeah um primary school
00:07:25
started Tamuri Primary um and I think about seven we moved from Tamuri to to mathemat and and and that's you know the
00:07:32
a large part of my childhood was was actually in um Who who did you pretend to be when you
00:07:37
were playing like rugby in on the school field or the backyard when you were little?
00:07:40
>> Um well I bet that was pretty pretty much every single night. Uh we you know
00:07:45
myself and my brothers and and friends you know we we were on the backyard pretty much every single night and it
00:07:51
was always a big battle about who was going to be the all blacks, who were going to be the South Africans
00:07:56
were touring within it was you know they might get a crack. Um and uh yeah I mean
00:08:03
I guess BG Williams was, you know, BG was was always a real hero of mine as a as a little kid, I guess. Um, but but,
00:08:13
you know, really all of them. Um, and yeah, you know, like I say, it it was pretty much every night that we'd be out
00:08:19
there uh battling away and um and and I think that kind of put us all in goodstead for later on.
00:08:26
>> You Where are you in the Birth order? >> I'm the oldest. >> Right. Yeah.
00:08:29
>> Oh, that's interesting. I would have picked you to be the youngest. It's um
00:08:32
just something I've noticed with the high performance I've had on the podcast
00:08:34
generally if you got older siblings like Christian Cull's a great example of this
00:08:38
like his older brother didn't end up going on to be a great rugby player but
00:08:42
just I suppose cuz Kully had an older person to attack and defend against growing up made him tough.
00:08:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I guess it was well there three of us and it was
00:08:53
usually me against you know my other two brothers and so >> two two on one
00:08:57
>> two two on one and uh it was always it'd always end in tears or my uh with the
00:09:02
second second um second oldest of Mark and he was a bloody bad sport little bugger and and so you know so it always
00:09:10
end up in a punch up or uh or on tears and um but but you know as they got a little bit older it got a little bit
00:09:17
harder for me too when they started to kind of team up and uh but yeah we had some real battles out there.
00:09:22
>> How much how much it was natural talent versus hard work for you? Uh I well I
00:09:27
think particularly for me it was probably hard work um to a to a large degree. Um you know I I guess you know
00:09:34
some talent as well but um but but yeah I I kind of feel like um you know consistency was was probably my number
00:09:43
one thing. Um you know there was always what I was aiming for all the way through my career. You know um not
00:09:49
wanting to have bad games and um you know winning was everything. Um, for for me, you know, I didn't care how we got
00:09:58
there, you know, um, wasn't that interested in kind of being flamboyant or anything like that. Um, I just wanted
00:10:05
to win. Um, and that's kind of the way that, you know, I kind of played the game, I guess.
00:10:09
>> Speaking of flamboyance, there's another highlight I saw on YouTube yesterday of
00:10:12
you getting a a try off the back of a a flamboyant Carlos Spencer move. Oh, yeah. It's amazing.
00:10:17
>> Yeah. Well, that was Yeah, there's always interesting playing with Carlos,
00:10:20
you know. Um, you lost, what's, you know, what are we doing? What's the move? I mean, you just get like a,
00:10:26
okay, we're just we're just going to play this one off the cuff. Um, but
00:10:30
yeah, no, he was he was a brilliant loss. Brilliant to play with. >> Who when was the first time um someone
00:10:36
said said to you or someone said about you, you know, this this kid's got talent. This kid's going to go
00:10:40
somewhere. >> You remember that? Who's the first person that spotted that in you? Well, I
00:10:44
I I think um I I was I was lucky to I was probably as as a as a little kid a little bit bigger than you know um so
00:10:55
and you know I was had decent kind of strength and and uh so so rugby in those early days kind of came reasonably easy
00:11:04
you know what I mean? Um and so I started to make all the um you know in the white we had Gwin Shield which was
00:11:10
kind of subun stuff and then Roller Mills um and you know and I think you know making Roller Mills that's when
00:11:16
people started to notice oh you know these a couple of kids in this team that were pretty pretty good um and you know
00:11:23
in my particular years that's you know Walter Little and and and I said he was
00:11:26
in Tucker Ros we played from those kind of role them all years all the way through. So that's kind of like well
00:11:32
those two go pretty good. M >> um and that was probably the start of it, I guess.
00:11:36
>> So, so you wanted to be an All Black as a kid? >> Uh Yep. >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:40
>> What now? This this was completely amateur then. It was actually amateur
00:11:44
right through your playing career as well with the All Blacks and there was no sign of professionalism or money on
00:11:48
site. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah. What did you want to do? Like what did you want to do for an
00:11:52
income? >> Um hadn't really kind of thought about that too much until later on, you know,
00:11:57
to be to be fair. Um you know, oh look, I thought about the police and stuff like that. you know, they were the kind
00:12:03
of things that interest me. Um, uh, when I left school, I was working for Panasonic as a as a in a sales and, um,
00:12:10
and commercial cadet, uh, which which was great. Um, but, you know, they were great employees, uh, employers, sorry,
00:12:16
as as well. And, and it was a bit of a rugby job, I guess. I mean, I could go off and do my thing, which was awesome.
00:12:21
Um, but I guess, you know, that was one of the things that kind of led me down the rugby league path in in the end was
00:12:27
the fact that, you know, rugby was amateur. Um and you know making be able to make that team that all back team at
00:12:35
a reasonably early age you know get getting a real taste of it. Um and at that same time you know friends like
00:12:42
Ridgie were going off to play league. You know John Gallagher had gone to um leadeds Frano had gone to Wigan. um and
00:12:49
and those guys coming back and talking about their experiences and you know Rigid in particular we you know spend a
00:12:54
lot of time with and and it's kind of like you know these guys are off doing
00:12:58
this and getting paid uh to be professional sports people you know they're doing it all day um and then I'm
00:13:04
seeing like my you know my older uh all black teammates you know struggling you know because they need to employ someone
00:13:11
to work the farm while they're away or drive the truck while they're away and
00:13:14
it just didn't seem that right to me you know and uh so I I think I just made a
00:13:19
decision that, you know, before the World Cup in ' 91, um that that was probably going to be, you know, my last
00:13:25
harrah really. And and um I kind of thought that I'd probably end up getting
00:13:29
picked up by an Australian rugby league team cuz there had been a lot of interest from from the teams over there.
00:13:34
But in the end, um I end up signing for leads and that was the end of it for a few years, uh four four and a half years
00:13:39
of uh rugby league. >> Yeah, it was an incredible rugby league career. Um we'll get into that, but
00:13:45
first of all, the the all black stuff. Um, can you remember the moment you made the team? How was the announcement done?
00:13:50
>> Um, >> but radio, TV. >> Well, no, it was TV and um, so yeah, I
00:13:56
mean, obviously I was had a pretty good idea was going to be in those days. It was, you know, you weren't you didn't
00:14:01
get a phone call or anything. Uh, you you just sat there and listened on the radio or and I think maybe they still do
00:14:07
do that these days, which is pretty cool really. Um but this particular day they
00:14:12
had the TV cameras uh in the living room uh at my flat and so we had mom and dad
00:14:18
were there and couple of friends and um and so you know that's not a telltale
00:14:23
sign you're about to be named. I don't know what it is. >> Well that's a thing but it's that's a
00:14:26
thing. It was kind of like I had a little bit of an idea I guess. Uh it would have been pretty embarrassing if
00:14:32
but um yeah so I got named and uh yeah pretty surreal. So that was for the 89 tour of Wales and um and yeah so Inga
00:14:44
was also named in that team. Uh Reggie was named that team. So you know we had a thing at home and you know celebrated
00:14:50
there and and um and then we all went off to down to Pon Rugby Club which was which was our club. Um, and then you
00:14:57
know the likes of Joe uh Stanley had obviously been named in that team as well. And Jace Goldmith was uh he was my
00:15:04
roommate uh my flatmate back in those days. And Jace um who had already been an All Black um from from our kind of
00:15:11
age group. Um he had broken his leg earlier that year, so he was he was out. Um so it was a little bit of kind of you
00:15:18
know great that Inger and Reggie and I were kind of there but you know Jace not being there with us was a little bit sad
00:15:25
I guess. Um, so we had a big, you know, had a big celebration down at down at Ponzip. And then that night, uh, and
00:15:31
then after that, Joe said, "Okay, you you come back home with me." And we sat
00:15:35
around at Joe's place probably until about 3:00 in the morning until, uh, until he ever his wife threw us out. Um,
00:15:43
and it was cool. And, you know, he's like, "Well, boys, this is this is what
00:15:46
it's all about, and this is this is what you're going to have to expect, and this
00:15:49
is what you need to do." And and it was awesome, you know, and we just sat around talking about it. And um having
00:15:54
people like that around was was pretty cool. >> Oh, he he was more experienced
00:15:58
>> or Joe Stanley. >> Yeah. Right. He was taking you under under his wing a little bit.
00:16:02
>> Yeah. Well, you know, he's he was Ponby, you know, Ponby through and through and
00:16:07
you know, the the new um the new Pon All Blacks. I mean, you know, Anger and I at
00:16:11
that stage were 19 year olds. Um and um you know, Richie Richie just I think he's you know, just turned 20 or
00:16:18
whatever. So, uh so yeah. So, it was it was cool, >> man. I got goosebumps just hearing some
00:16:23
of these names you've dropped already. E like it's it's stacked. It's just a
00:16:27
stacked era. You still quite obviously um rest in peace in a twig. But what about Richie? You still have a
00:16:33
relationship with him? >> Yeah. Well, cross we we Yeah, we don't I don't see him much. He's bloody he
00:16:40
spends most of his time in France these days. I think gallivanting around in southern France. But um but like I
00:16:45
mentioned earlier with those other manly boys, whenever you catch up, it's awesome. you know, it's it's always good
00:16:49
because, you know, there's just so many shared experiences, you know, in times
00:16:53
when you you know, you've had to rely on each other and that and um you know,
00:16:56
those bonds are pretty hard to break. >> Yeah, I had him on the podcast really
00:17:00
early on, like when I was still in a spare room at home and there were no video cameras in the setup. He was he
00:17:04
was fabulous. It was the first time we'd really connected, but I think he's um he
00:17:08
he's um he's he's incredibly misunderstood, I think, by a lot of the
00:17:12
New Zealand public. >> Yeah, I don't know about misunderstood. He's quickly polariz I don't know what
00:17:19
it is. He's he's he's a polarizing, you know, he's a polarizing character. But
00:17:23
at at the heart though, he's um you know, he's one of these guys that um you
00:17:27
know, for his mates, he he you know, you you'd want to be in the trenches, you
00:17:31
know, um one of the bravest footballers I've I've come across. And um the 9 well
00:17:38
into the league later on, I guess, but the 96 year where we were on the premiership, we actually started without
00:17:42
him. he'd come back to the Warriors and and um uh it was the start of the Super
00:17:46
League RL kind of battle and and then but once he came back that was like the finishing piece for that team that year.
00:17:52
He was just so awesome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And another podcast on guest I've
00:17:57
had on Dame Julie Christie. Um Oh yeah. >> Yeah. She just talked about just how
00:18:00
fiercely loyal he is and the example she gave was when um Toddy Brent Todd got in
00:18:04
some trouble and Matthew put him up for home de at his house. Just fiercely loyal.
00:18:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. That's that's someone in a nutshell,
00:18:12
>> which is a wonderful wonderful You can say what you want about someone, but
00:18:14
loyalty is a wonderful quality that no one can take away from you. >> Totally. Um, so so turning up to that
00:18:19
first team meeting or a training session as a 20-year-old. Um, yeah. Who's most
00:18:24
what's most intimidating? Who's most intimidating? >> Um, well, I tell you that like you talk
00:18:29
about the first first meeting. So that was always over at the Panama, right? Um, and so I was I was driving over the
00:18:36
over the bridge and I was I I was flustered cuz I was, you know, thinking, "Shit, I'm going to be late to to get
00:18:42
there." And and so I was going a little bit too quick and next thing the old
00:18:44
lights behind me and they pulled me up just so that I came over the bridge and uh he said, "Geez, you going back quick,
00:18:51
mate?" And I said, "Oh yeah, I'm late for a meeting." Yeah. You know, I said,
00:18:55
"Yeah." He go I said, "I'm on way for my first all black money." He said, "Follow
00:19:00
me." He said he got in his car and then and um and I followed him and into the
00:19:05
into the pose. So that was that was a pretty good um introduction into the into the team. But um
00:19:11
>> please escort. >> Please. Yeah. Yeah. Um but oh look, I I guess I was lucky um coming into it that
00:19:20
in that era there were so many Oaklanders that made up that team. So it was kind of you kind of walked in there
00:19:25
and kind of like a few extras from around the country, right? and um and a big contingent of of Oakucklanders.
00:19:32
>> So um so that was that that was pretty good and and um and I think it made it a
00:19:36
lot easier for you know just settling into the into the environment having known a lot of the guys.
00:19:41
>> What was the um you're you're in a lucky position where due to your job now as a
00:19:45
like a player agent player manager you you sort of you know have your finger on the pulse so you know what team cultures
00:19:50
are like now versus then. What was it? Yeah. What was it like back then? Big drinking culture.
00:19:55
>> Uh >> work hard, play hard. >> Yeah. Yeah. No def. Yeah. And
00:19:58
absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's it was a different different type of culture altogether than than it is today. Um and
00:20:05
yeah, for right or wrong, I I guess, you know, um it did play quite a quite a part. You know, there wasn't too many
00:20:12
away games where there wasn't a court session where, you know, they'd kind of
00:20:16
get you pretty pretty loaded up and then like see your boys and behave yourselves
00:20:21
out there tonight, you know. Um and it was just and it was just part of the part of the scene, you know. Um, and but
00:20:29
it was at the same time as you had to front up the next day. If there was if you're on tour and you had a big night,
00:20:36
it didn't matter. You just had to front up the next day. It was pretty old school like that. Yeah.
00:20:41
>> Um, and where did you sit on the bus? >> Right at the Right at the front.
00:20:44
>> Oh, really? >> Right at the front. >> So, you got to play 17 tests. Where
00:20:47
where did you end up on the bus? >> Right at the front. >> Oh, you never got off the front seat.
00:20:52
>> Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. Um, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you got to do your
00:20:55
time and uh and it was the same even like I say the Oakland changing room back in those days, you know. I think it
00:21:01
was probably my third year before I actually got my my own seat. Um so there's, you know, the changing room and
00:21:07
then there's this one bench with about nine guys trying to, you know, change.
00:21:12
Um and but it was pretty cool when eventually someone says, "Oh, Posty, that's your seat over there." Someone
00:21:18
had, you know, obviously gone and that's your seat. And it kind of felt like a
00:21:22
bit of an achievement, you know. Um, but I remember anger coming in on his I'd
00:21:27
been in there a couple of weeks and then Anger got brought into the team and he came in and he just kind of threw his
00:21:31
bag down somewhere. I can't remember who the player was. Might have been um Ellen
00:21:35
Won. I can't remember but um whoever it was just came and just grabbed his bags
00:21:38
and just bloody buffed them. You know, it's like he you you learned the hard
00:21:43
way. That's a different time. Yeah. Martin Sneed who I mentioned before say he played cricket through the 80s. He
00:21:48
said when they're on tour, every single night of the week, the the batters would
00:21:52
go out as a group, the bowlers would go out as a group, so they'd be drinking
00:21:54
every night of the week. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Different time, eh? >> Yeah. Yeah. Completely different time.
00:21:58
Um, you know, we had we had a load of fun. Um, >> you know, I guess as far as high
00:22:04
performance goes, um, you know, you just you just wouldn't get away with it these
00:22:08
days. You just couldn't. You know, these guys are just so much bigger, stronger,
00:22:11
fitter. Um, and they still get out there and have a good time, you know. Um, but
00:22:16
I think they need to be a lot more cautious than we ever were. Um, >> oh, with social media and
00:22:22
>> social media and everything else, phones, cameras, um, you know, all that
00:22:27
kind of stuff. It's it's it's um, it's important that you're, you know, you're,
00:22:31
um, you kind in control. So, um, yeah, certainly a different age. >> So, your your all black debut, uh, that
00:22:39
was against Wales at Carter Farms Park in 1989. Um, yeah. How nervous were you about doing the hacker? Was the hacker a
00:22:46
big thing then or? >> Yeah, well it was because you know Buck had kind of transformed the hacker back
00:22:52
in those days and uh what an awesome leader he was. >> Um but uh yeah, look I I I think you
00:22:59
know you as a kid you kind of grow up doing that particular hacker, right? You know, whether it's on the back lawn
00:23:04
before you kind of start getting stuck into your brothers or or um at different times. So, you know,
00:23:11
you you kind of know. Yeah, you'd have a couple of rehearsals and then way you
00:23:14
go. I mean, it's nothing like, you know, the per performance these days, of course, but but it was certainly a step
00:23:19
up from what it had been. Um but but what I remember most about my um that debut was was with it being at Carter
00:23:28
Farms Park and um you know I'd grown up you know one of those kids like well
00:23:36
probably you and and and everyone else like getting woken up by your parents in the middle of the night at 2:00 in the
00:23:42
morning when the All Blacks are on tour and >> cheese toasties and a Milo.
00:23:45
>> Cheese toasties and a Milo. Exactly that. And um and I was one of those kids
00:23:49
and um and then you know here you are uh you're you're standing on Cardiff Arms
00:23:56
and um they're singing um uh Land of their father and all that kind of thing
00:24:01
and it was just unre you know it was surreal. Um but the weird thing was like I kind of felt like I' I'd been there
00:24:08
before because I'd thought about it so much you know and and being um that particular field um card farms park um
00:24:19
you know there's something special there was something special about it you know
00:24:21
it's just part of New Zealand rugby folk law right uh so to be there and do that
00:24:26
um was was very special and um and I'll I'll never forget it probably ask you
00:24:32
about games you know I can't remember most of them um actual playing but but
00:24:37
moments like that are pretty special. >> Yeah. And to top it off um two tries,
00:24:42
one of them legal. >> Well, two of them legal. Two of them are one. Yeah. And two of them stuck here.
00:24:49
Yeah. I mean that's icing on the cake stuff, isn't it? What's after that? Do
00:24:53
you feel like you've sort of, you know, cemented yourself as an all black or you
00:24:57
got more credibility or respect amongst the team or? >> Um, I I was lucky. I, you know, my JK's
00:25:04
mis misfortune. He he ended up with a Achilles. Um, he tore in Achilles and so that was him bugged for the for the
00:25:10
tour. I I went as a center. Um, they threw me in as a wing. won a game went pretty well and um and then I you know
00:25:18
kind of filled in for JK is that right hand winger and and had a good tour and and got the call up um so you know so
00:25:26
yeah is often the way you know someone as misfortune is your fortune you got to take it with both hands and um
00:25:32
opportunity yeah and um yeah >> and who who was who was there did you have any were your parents there or
00:25:38
>> yeah mom and dad were there yeah mom and dad were there and um yeah like they
00:25:43
they reckon And I scored that try pretty early that that first try. I think it was after about four or five minutes.
00:25:48
And mom reckon she she had never saw it cuz she was still she had still had tears in her eyes
00:25:53
>> from um from the um from the anthems and that you know. So uh so that was pretty
00:25:58
cool to have them there because they played a massive part and you know this is that support network. Um growing up
00:26:04
they were always there. So that was pretty cool for them to be sitting up there watching that.
00:26:08
>> What have you got that jersey anywhere? What have you done with it? Um that
00:26:12
particular jersey dad's got at home up on the wall. Um yeah. So yeah, I haven't
00:26:18
actually got like a whole lot. He was a bit of a bugger. Daddy, when I went to England, he uh I gave him all my
00:26:24
jerseys. Like he's, you know, oh yeah, charities here and charities here and
00:26:29
all of a sudden you've got bugger all bloody jerseys. He's But um but yeah,
00:26:33
no, that one's on the wall. >> Wow. That's so special. Yeah. You were
00:26:36
telling me before we started your dad's still around. Um, yeah. Gets by on a
00:26:40
diet of like a books a line reading a card in the 60s a week. >> Yeah, something like that. Not not not
00:26:45
quite like that these days, but uh yeah. Yeah, he's uh yeah, he's still going
00:26:49
pretty strong. >> That's so cool that he's got that jersey hanging up. I I suppose it says just how
00:26:53
much it means, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um they they they certainly got a lot of um a a lot of
00:27:00
satisfaction out of being there that day particularly. But, you know, uh for myself and my other two brothers who,
00:27:06
you know, they're reasonable footballers as well. Um, yeah, mom and dad were a
00:27:10
big part of their well, part of our support. >> What about other bits of memorabilia?
00:27:14
Like, um, I found this, where is it? I found this thing online used to like a bubble bubble gum card from the 1990s.
00:27:19
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like, do do you have do you do you
00:27:22
have like a like a pool room or anything? >> Um, I have got a or like a a steamer box
00:27:28
full of crap somewhere in storage. >> Well, it's I'm like everyone, you know,
00:27:32
you you always swap jerseys. Um and actually uh my jersey from from that Welsh game. So
00:27:40
that that's that's on the wall and it the reason why I got to keep it um
00:27:44
because you always you know you end up swapping jersey. So uh Terry Wright actually after the after that game after
00:27:50
that game against the Welsh he he gave me his all black jersey to to give to you opposition so I could keep my
00:27:58
jersey. So um yeah so so that was pretty cool Terry. But um yeah um most of them
00:28:05
to be honest are in boxes. You know I think you know in my office I've got um
00:28:11
I guess just to you know map out my eras. I've got I've got my uh Manley uh
00:28:17
96 jersey where we won the premiership. I've got my all black jersey in the middle. Um and I've got um leads jersey
00:28:26
from our first trip to Wembley. So um so they're the only ones that I got on the
00:28:30
wall. So Buck was captain on that tour and um and then we came home and uh he was replaced uh by Gary Whitten. That's
00:28:38
when the bring back thing started. Yeah. >> What was it like being in the team at
00:28:41
that time? >> Kind of. I I guess you're concentrating on yourself a little bit. Um u Joe was
00:28:47
also um he he he left the team at that stage and and then I came in as a replacement for him in the center. So I
00:28:54
kind of moved from from the wing into the centers and and our first um first set of test matches were better cup
00:29:02
three three tests against Australia. Um so I mean I was kind of focused on you know [ __ ] I got to do a good job here
00:29:08
rather than looking at the big kind of picture of what was going on but there was certainly a lot of backlash. Yeah
00:29:13
for sure. >> Yeah cuz another um big all black controversy was um when Kelly was
00:29:17
dropped by John Mitchell. I had Steve Divine on who was in the team at the time and he he said everyone's just
00:29:22
focusing on their own job. to even sort of notice that sort of stuff. What was what was Bark like though? When I had
00:29:27
Fran Boniker on, he he he called him the scariest person he's ever met. He said
00:29:31
his nickname was God. Um what's what's your recollections or memories of Buck
00:29:37
Shelf? >> Um well, he was great. He was awesome. Um you know, for for a bunch of young
00:29:41
cuz there a lot of young players on that particular tour, you know, myself and Walter. Um John Turmy came in as a
00:29:48
replacement for for JK. Uh and then you know Richie and and uh so so it was a there's some young guys here, right? And
00:29:56
um Buck I guess was a bit of a father figure in a in a lot of ways and um but he was accessible and and um you know he
00:30:03
didn't kind of put himself on any kind of pedestals or anything like that. He
00:30:06
was just a you know really good guy and um the thing was he just led from the front you know I mean he was just so
00:30:12
bloody tough. Um and so you're happy to follow people like that you know. Um, so
00:30:18
yeah, it was we were lucky we had people like him. Griswali was was the coach of
00:30:23
that team. Like he was a scary bugger. Uh, but but again, you know, uh, when you got to know him, like a just a
00:30:30
really big-hearted guy and, you know, loved his players and and um, and you want to play for people like that. So,
00:30:37
yeah, it was just it was a great tour that that that my first rugby all black experience was was awesome. you know, I
00:30:43
got to play test matches on that trip and we had a lot of fun. Um, you know, Rick Solito made that um that good, bad,
00:30:51
and the rugby kind of video. So, people >> people got to have a bit of a look at,
00:30:55
you know, what goes on and um yeah, it was it was it was good fun. >> Yeah, that that was before its time, eh,
00:31:01
that sort of stuff. Like, um those sort of, you know, behind the scenes sports documentaries are massive now. Like you
00:31:06
look at Drive to Survive and you can probably take the roots all the way back to the good, the bad, and the rugby.
00:31:11
That VHS I think it sold something like 100,000 copies at W course massive. >> Yeah. A little bit of a difference
00:31:16
between Good Mad Rugby and Drive to Surv. Uh but >> Reck and JK with a handicam. Okay. Yeah.
00:31:23
Production values are a bit less >> but yeah effective. Um yeah. Who else was Well, MJ. MJ. He was
00:31:31
really tough, right? >> Yep. Yep. Yep. He um Yeah. Just just a free kick uh athlete, you know. Um, and
00:31:40
it just transformed, you know, loose forward play at that time, you know, like when you had people like him, you
00:31:47
know, like again, I guess, uh, like I mentioned before, I was just lucky to kind of come into that Oakland
00:31:51
environment. You had all these kind of guys. Um, I think I played 50 games for Aland before I left to go to Rugby
00:31:58
League and and we had one loss against uh, New South Wales and, you know, shitty conditions over in Sydney. Uh,
00:32:04
but apart from that, yeah, I mean, you you never even felt like you were going to, you know, be in a losing team.
00:32:09
There's these these great footballers around you was was was pretty neat. >> And someone like Grizz Wy um do you do
00:32:17
you sort of like talk around him or you just keep your head down and speak when you're spoken to?
00:32:22
>> Pretty much pretty much just like that. >> Yeah. uh when I um that Bside Cup that
00:32:30
first series back in New Zealand um and I got named in the center so Walter Little and I were the were the two
00:32:36
midfielders and so we were a couple you a couple of 20 year olds at that time so
00:32:40
you know I think about it now and you think bloody hell you know it's pretty
00:32:43
young midfield for international rugby. Um but before these games, you know, you
00:32:50
you get in a circle. Um you put your chairs in a circle and the coach comes in, has a final word before, um before
00:32:55
we get on the bus and head off to the ground. And I just remember Grizz kind of, you know, talking to the team and
00:33:03
everything. And all right, you know, get on the bus and everyone gets up and he goes, "You two come here." And so,
00:33:09
um B and I kind of wander over to him. He goes, "Yeah." So, the Australians reckon
00:33:15
that you two are by far the biggest bloody weak link. Uh, so don't [ __ ] this
00:33:21
up. We kind of like looked at each other and like no pressure. No, no extra pressure on
00:33:29
the 20-year-olds, but um it worked out pretty well. But yeah, no, he was he was a hard man.
00:33:34
>> Wow. Not mincing his word. Um yeah, not not a lot of duty or care there by
00:33:39
today's standards. What about a Grisw halftime spray? like if the team's not
00:33:42
doing well. >> Uh yeah, that they were. Yep. Yep. They were they were they were up there. U the
00:33:49
the other, you know, the the World Cup uh 91 where uh they decided which was a massive mistake really to um to bring
00:33:57
Hardy in as well. So John Hart and Grizz to co- coach the team at the World Cup.
00:34:02
And I think this is pretty well documented. It's kind of going over our ground really. But you know, both both
00:34:07
terrific coaches in their own right. Um but chalk and cheese. Absolute chalk and
00:34:12
cheese. >> Yeah. Bad chemistry. >> Yeah. Real bad chemistry. So um and I
00:34:16
remember you know going off to play the Australians in the semi-final, you know,
00:34:19
we end up losing that game. But I just remember being at the hotel um before the you know um before we get on the bus
00:34:26
and the coaches come in and Hardy kind of getting in there and you know talk. I know sorry Grizz went first and he spoke
00:34:32
for about 30 seconds you know like and that was it. And then Hardy kind of came in and and you know his message was a
00:34:39
little bit longer and and in the end you kind of like this is before a big test match, right? You're kind of looking at
00:34:44
uh you're looking at Hardy and you're kind of like looking at Grizz and you're
00:34:47
going Jesus. You could just see him getting more wound up um as as time went by. So yeah, so it was it was it was a
00:34:55
crazy decision to to bring those guys together for that. Um >> but anyway,
00:35:00
>> yeah, completely different person. Yes, you got Grizz Wley from like an old
00:35:02
school rugby background and then um John Hart with a you know Fletchers management sort of background. Um
00:35:08
>> yeah, what are your recollections of that Rugby World Cup? Because little
00:35:11
history lesson. So the 87 was the very first Rugby World Cup and the All Blacks won here at home.
00:35:16
>> So up until that point we just assumed they were easy to win, right? >> So then you were in the second World Cup
00:35:22
1991 and I I suppose people think, "Oh, we're just going to win it again cuz
00:35:25
we're the All Blacks." Was um >> Yeah. Did it hurt at the time? >> Yeah. a massive loss.
00:35:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Look, you know, you you you you feel those losses. Um I
00:35:38
don't think anything's changed there. Uh you feel like you've let the whole
00:35:41
country down. You know, you you're kind of carrying a pretty big load on the
00:35:45
shoulders. U if you're looking at that way. Um that was a really good Australian team. You know, they they'd
00:35:51
beaten us a couple of times leading up um from there. And and I think the Allback team at that time was kind of
00:35:58
about to kind of go into a bit of a transformation period, you know, like we had players, you know, a group of
00:36:04
younger players that were starting to find their feet. >> Um and then a group of older players who
00:36:09
probably started to kind of head down the other side of the hill, you know, >> at the end of the the Grand Fox's sort
00:36:14
of era. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so um so it wasn't a perfect kind of situation going into
00:36:20
World Cup and and you know, World Cups were new at that point. So like the lead and I there was nothing very strategic
00:36:28
about the way we went into the World Cup. It's just like oh well you know there's a World Cup coming on uh coming
00:36:33
up and this is the team and way you go. Um I think there's a you know obviously
00:36:37
a lot more thought and preparation goes into World Cups these days. >> Was there any sort of um public backlash
00:36:43
after that? Like I'm I'm thinking I I had John hard on the podcast and uh
00:36:47
after the 99 World Cup um yeah he was spat on. treated real badly and actually spiral into like real serious um mental
00:36:55
health issues as as a result of that. Was it the same in 91 or not as severe? >> Um well, I don't really know because I
00:37:01
didn't come home. >> Wise. So I um I I'd organized I'd organized to stick around after the
00:37:09
World Cup and play some uh club rugby at Bedford um just just out of London. And
00:37:14
I was going to do that for a few months and then kind of wandered home wander home after that. Um but while I was
00:37:20
doing that, that's when I got the phone call from Doug Lorton, who was the coach
00:37:24
at Leads, uh rugby league and um so yeah, it was a little bit of time before, you know, went home. You end up
00:37:32
being at the end of the rugby league season in uh in England. So >> yeah, and and just to time stamp it, but
00:37:36
this is pre- internet, pre-mobile phones. So you couldn't even read articles back home uh even if you wanted
00:37:42
to. There was your parents could probably clip some things and send them over to you and you'd get them 3 weeks
00:37:47
later. I I think it was pretty soon after that World Cup that um I think Lori Mains was was named as the coach or
00:37:54
or was about to be named cuz I you know I got remember getting a phone call from
00:37:57
Hardy got a phone call from Lori just you know before I'd actually signed um
00:38:02
and uh so I think it must have been pretty soon after that that Lori was named as the coach and and then you know
00:38:08
kind of went into that kind of um transition period with the All Blacks um and he you know started to kind of bring
00:38:15
in new players and Yeah. >> Yeah. We'll get to the leaks up in a second. So, yeah. So, so you left after
00:38:20
that World Cup in ' 91 and then you came back and you were in some um All Black
00:38:24
training camps uh when you came back towards the tail end of your career. Have I got this right? Like you're in
00:38:28
like some tapo >> training camp. Who was the coach then? >> Oh, that was Oh, that was it. Yeah, that
00:38:33
was when I came back to union at the end. After league. >> Yeah. After league. Yeah. So,
00:38:37
>> who was coach then? Was that Was that >> uh that was Hardy? >> Hardy?
00:38:40
>> Yeah, that was Hardy. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I came back and and uh one of
00:38:44
the first things they did was send me down to tapo to um camp with your back cuz you know look it probably wasn't the
00:38:49
best thing to you know to be doing really from a PR point of view. Um >> why is that?
00:38:54
>> Well I think a lot of people like you know he he'd been off playing rugby
00:38:58
league you know what's he doing at an all black camp so I >> Oh you still sort of seen as like a a
00:39:03
defector or something. Oh, I don't know if it was so much a defector, but I, you
00:39:06
know, I hadn't played rugby for a long time. So, um, so there's a a little bit
00:39:10
of negativity, but I think people saw it as a little bit controversial having a having a leaguey kind of come in and
00:39:15
straight into a into that type of environment. But, um, anyway, it was just, you know, a bit of bloody testing
00:39:20
and that was no big deal. >> Yeah. Um, what are some of the lessons from the black environment which have
00:39:26
stuck with you through your professional life? Um, yeah, I there's there's there's just something
00:39:35
really special, you know, and and and I'm I guess, you know, it worries me a
00:39:39
little bit that that, you know, we we can't lose those core values that that
00:39:45
have made the All Blacks such a unique uh and powerful um not not only sports team, but but um
00:39:54
um the yeah, the ethos around, you know, um, keeping things straight and, you know, loyalty and
00:40:04
being humble and, um, you know, all all those things that have made all black teams so good, you know, um, I think you
00:40:12
can carry those through into other aspects of your life. And, you know, I think they've, you know, tried to kind
00:40:16
of commercialize a little bit too, which, you know, I don't know if I'm such a fan of, but um,
00:40:21
>> in what way? Like, um, yeah, what do you mean? Um well I I I you know I I I think
00:40:26
um um you know you you'll get businesses will you know spend time down at New
00:40:32
Zealand Rugby kind of you know learn being taught the whole kind of all back ethos of you know how to kind of do
00:40:39
business basically and and uh I thought that's what you were going to say like I
00:40:42
was I was going to yeah the James Kerbach um what's it called? I think it's Yeah. the James Ker book. It's got
00:40:48
Yeah. lessons from the All Blacks and it talks about the no [ __ ] policy and you know, no one's beyond sweeping the
00:40:54
sheds and things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I suppose there are transferables for
00:40:57
business. But yeah, you know, yeah, there definitely are, I guess. But um but but yeah, look, I I I think um there
00:41:05
are lessons that I learned that I've been able to kind of carry through um into aspects of my life and and I think
00:41:10
just kind of keeping things real is probably the most important. >> Yeah. What what was your proudest moment
00:41:15
as an All Black? >> Um well, I guess I Nothing beats your first test match, you know. Uh nothing I don't
00:41:25
think anything would ever beat, you know, that standing there at Carter Farms Park, you know, um about to play
00:41:32
your first test match. That was that was pretty cool. Um being named, you know, having your name read out, it's just
00:41:38
kind of surreal, all that kind of bit. But um but yeah, look, I'm you know, I'm
00:41:43
really happy with what I achieved um while I was there. It probably, you know, and some people say, you know,
00:41:50
wasn't long enough really, but um but I'm more than happy with, you know, what
00:41:57
what I achieved while I was while I was playing, you know, playing rugby and at that point and and then able to go off
00:42:02
and do something different. >> Yeah. And you you played every game in the 91 World Cup.
00:42:06
>> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Y >> it's a hell of a contribution. You know,
00:42:10
you look at um how many All Blacks there's there's been like 12 or 1300 All
00:42:13
Blacks and there's a lot of one test All Blacks along the way. So to get to 17,
00:42:16
it's no mean feat. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, back in those days too, you played all the midweek games,
00:42:21
too. So, I think I ended up with about 30 30 games in a in a all black jersey, which um yeah, I know I'm, you know,
00:42:27
really proud of. >> And financially, what did you get back then? Did you get per DMs? You get like
00:42:31
a day like a day rate or anything or >> Yeah. And I can't remember what the hell
00:42:34
it was, but it was bugger all >> like 20 bucks, 50 bucks. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean like and this
00:42:39
is the thing, right? And so you know if I think you'd probably know you have
00:42:43
your if you got a say a test match or you got a midweek game whatever you got your you got your playing team and back
00:42:49
in those days you know if you are coming off the bench you were lucky to get on the field cuz no one wanted to give up
00:42:54
their spot. So there was no kind of you know interchange or anything like that. So you had your um you had your planing,
00:43:00
you had your duties which were the um were the reserves and then you had the dirty duties. the dirty duties were the
00:43:05
guys that didn't even change, you know, they just sat in the stand and ate lollies. Um, so so one one of the things
00:43:12
was with with with all the games, uh, we're all given two two tickets, you know, two match tickets for for every
00:43:17
game, whether it was test match or midweek game. So, um, so it was the job of a couple of the DDs, the dirty
00:43:24
duties, to get out there with the rest of the scalpers and, um, oh, >> a few moments later. All right, so we're
00:43:35
back. Uh, Posty, um, I don't know what just happened. There was like a power
00:43:38
cut. >> Who knows? So, um, we're going to continue with limited light. And I've
00:43:44
got my, um, glasses here, which I don't normally wear because, um, the the font
00:43:48
on the cards is too small. But we were, you were in the middle of a really good story when the power went out. We were
00:43:52
talking about, um, well, I think we were talking about, you know, um, how we were
00:43:56
paid back in back in those old amateur days. And I I was just I was just talking about how um we all got two
00:44:03
tickets for these um you know for each game whether whether it was a test match or a midweek game and the DDS the guys
00:44:10
that weren't uh change w change to actually play that day a couple of them would have to go out with the scalpers
00:44:17
uh and sell off our tickets and and then you know all the money went kind of went
00:44:21
into a pool which they called the cabbage patch and um and I think Foxy was usually the uh the treasurer. he is
00:44:28
in charge of the uh you know the the the cash that was generated from the cabbage
00:44:32
patch. Um and then at the end of the tour um that was all divied up between the boys and uh and again you know for
00:44:38
the young guys it was awesome. It was like oh a couple of grand or whatever you know beautiful they'd go off on a
00:44:43
little excursion around Europe or whatever. And uh but of course for the older guys you know that was pretty
00:44:48
important that money they had to kind of go home and um like I was saying you know whether it was paying people that
00:44:53
had been looking after the farm or looking after the truck or whatever. And uh so yeah, I just never really kind of
00:45:00
sat that well that um he had like these high performing kind of athletes at that
00:45:04
time. Um and um yeah, having to struggle to kind of get out there and and and play for their country and and do what
00:45:11
they did. I mean, everyone loved it. No one was complaining, but it still wasn't
00:45:15
right. Um and and so that that had a big effect on me, I guess. And and and I guess, you know, when that opportunity
00:45:22
came up for rugby league, well, yeah, I was I was all over it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, this was 91 after the
00:45:27
World Cup where the All Blacks finished third. Seems seems like a no-brainer to me. Um, what sort of money was on offer
00:45:33
for for that first league deal? >> Um, do you remember? >> Well, yeah. I mean, I I can't remember
00:45:39
exactly, but it was um it was it was pretty reasonable kind of money for for back in those days. Like nothing
00:45:45
compared to what the guys get paid today, I guess. Um, but I I I think it was, you know, maybe around a million
00:45:52
kind of Kiwi, something like that. um over a 4-year period or whatever it was and batch payments and everything else.
00:45:58
So >> Oh, that's crazy money. >> Well, yeah, it was certainly a lot more
00:46:02
than uh being a sales kid at at Panasonic, you know, which was a great job, by the way. I'm not complaining
00:46:09
about that. But um but yeah, look, it was it was that that type of money. Yeah, cuz I was thinking going from
00:46:17
going from being a dirty dirty that's sculping tickets to get a couple of grand at the end of a tour from the
00:46:21
cabbage patch to I was thinking like 50k a year would have been um a substantial
00:46:25
amount of money. That's that's like a no-brainer to me. Why why weren't more
00:46:29
people making the switch? Um don't know. Um I guess it's kind of position
00:46:34
specific. Uh and and and and also, you know, I think um you know, it was only really the younger guys that they were
00:46:42
targeting that they probably had time to to to make that, you know, make that transition from from playing union to
00:46:48
league. Um oh, mind you, in saying that, you know, Botu and John Gallagher were a
00:46:54
little bit older, I guess, but uh yeah, I don't know. Um I guess they probably
00:46:58
figured that outside backs and that were probably going to transition a little bit easier than than others, and that's
00:47:02
kind of what they tended to go for. Who did you speak to about it? You speak to your parents or you speak to any
00:47:08
friends? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I spoke to I spoke to dad a lot about it. Um and u and dad
00:47:16
Yeah. Funny enough, like like I said, had always been a a really big supporter of everything we did. But always had
00:47:23
this thing in in my head that he always told us too, you know, when it's over,
00:47:26
it's over and no one's going to care. You know, when it's over, it's over. and
00:47:31
um you know keep your nose clean and um you know you just do do all the right things but at the end of the day you got
00:47:36
to look after yourself you know all those kind of things he you know always kind of said and it kind of stuck with
00:47:40
me a little bit I guess um so yeah spoke to him a bit I was lucky that um Grant Mar was our coach at Ponsubby and he was
00:47:48
also my accountant really good really good accountant and um so I spoke to Grant a lot about it he kind of became
00:47:56
like a quasi kind of agent I guess for me Um and so I spoke to him about it. He helped me a lot and um and so that was
00:48:04
good. So yeah, I spoke to them. Um Buck was actually while I was at Bedford, he was playing down the road at
00:48:09
Northampton. So um yeah, I kind of spoke to Buck a little bit about it. Um but but not a lot.
00:48:16
>> Yeah, I mean it was it was my decision to make and you know I kind of feel like
00:48:21
I kind of made a decision based on what I thought was right for for me, you know. Um, and so I I don't I wasn't
00:48:31
persuaded by anyone else or was just like I think, you know, um, for my long-term future, this is probably going
00:48:37
to be a good move for me. Um, as long as I don't stuff it up, you know. So, I was
00:48:41
always really conscious of um, making sure that, you know, it was going to I was going to succeed um, and I wasn't
00:48:48
going to just going to kind of blow all the, you know, wasn't just going to piss
00:48:51
all the money away or whatever. I was going to try and do the right things. And, uh, so yeah. Uh, Certainly don't
00:48:57
regret it. It was a good move and um and certainly enjoyed my time. >> Oh yeah. No one no one could hold that
00:49:03
against you. Like Yeah. Are you kidding me? I I know there's like pride in the
00:49:06
black jersey and it's this thing that you know a dream that you almost manifested from when you were a little
00:49:11
boy. >> Yeah. >> You know, getting up watching these games in the middle of the night. But um
00:49:15
yeah, setting yourself up for a financially financial secure future um it seems like a no-brainer. Where where
00:49:20
did your financial literacy come from? Like there's there's there's a a
00:49:24
casualty of players like when rugby went professional that um you know suddenly went from nothing to to big money that
00:49:30
um you know weren't equipped with the uh skills to handle it. Where did it come
00:49:34
from with for you to not not do dumb things? >> Um I think it was just a fear of failure
00:49:40
really you know more than anything else. I just you know like I said I just didn't want to stuff this up. I mean,
00:49:45
you know, to give away an allback career, move to the other side of the world, away from your support network,
00:49:50
away from, you know, away from your friends and your family and everyone else, you know, to to make those kind of
00:49:56
sacrifices. And, you know, I mean, I I did look at them as, you know, you got to make some sacrifices to to do this.
00:50:01
If you're going to do it, well, you got to make it work, right? And and it's
00:50:05
actually something I I I tell, you know, the players today, you know, if um you know, before they go off and play in
00:50:11
Japan or play in France or whatever, it's the same exactly the same thing. It's like, well, you know, make sure
00:50:16
that, you know, it's it's it's it's fun and it's great to go off and have a new
00:50:21
experience, but you got to make this work for you for your long-term future, you know.
00:50:25
>> So, um, so yeah, and that that's kind of always stuck in my mind right from the
00:50:30
start. >> And how was life in Leads? So, you were there for, I think, five seasons, 135
00:50:35
games. >> Yeah. >> Um, something you've got in common with Oasis, you got to play Wembley.
00:50:40
>> What the [ __ ] What's that like? Yeah, that was that was that was pretty
00:50:44
unreal. But um yeah, Leeds Le I love my time in Leeds. Leeds was awesome and the
00:50:48
people up there are just, you know, were fantastic. And Leeds is a pretty cool city actually. It was pretty
00:50:52
metropolitan, pretty international, you know, great shopping, all those kind of things. Um but, you know, it's the north
00:50:59
and uh certainly a lot different from being down south. Um but that's good in
00:51:02
a good way, you know. Um, and the the the supporters were just so passionate. Like the lead's fans are kind of crazy,
00:51:10
you know, uh, fanatical supporters and, uh, you know, uh, they'll let you know
00:51:16
if you weren't if if things weren't going well. You know, you you'd be
00:51:19
coming off the end at the end of a game, uh, if if things hadn't gone well that
00:51:23
day and they'd be like, you know, chanting, you know, what a waste of money. What a waste of uh, but they'd
00:51:28
all be back there the next week. You know, we are leads. We, you know, they're back singing again. So, um, so
00:51:34
that was that was that was pretty cool. And and, um, my first my first game was on a, uh, my first league experience. I
00:51:43
never played League before, uh, was over Witness was bit of a [ __ ] hole over over
00:51:49
the Penines. And, um, well, I shouldn't really say that, but um, but it was a
00:51:54
cold, miserable night. And this is for the second team, you know, just to kind of give me a run. And, you know, we were
00:51:59
playing on a pitch that was pretty much frozen over. like you needed blades like
00:52:03
skiing skating rather than uh rugby boots. And uh I just remember getting out there just going what the hell you
00:52:10
know what what are you doing? But um so I played that game and then on the Saturday I had my first game for the for
00:52:16
the first team against Rod York and that was a challenge cup game and um and so that was my first experience at Hingley
00:52:23
in front of this kind of full crowd and uh full full stadium and it was very cool and um yeah I just loved it. It was
00:52:31
you know we had great great guys um a lot of Kiwis. Yeah, we had a stack of Kiwis at the club. You know, your Kevin
00:52:37
Aros and your George Mans and Tony Kemp and Carl Hall and so u so I was lucky to
00:52:43
be surrounded by, you know, a lot of people from home and and and and the English guys were awesome as well. So,
00:52:48
um yeah, Ellery Hanley and Gary Scoffield and people like that, you know, legends of the game. Um and and
00:52:55
that's really where where I learned the game from. Doug Lorton was the coach.
00:52:59
Um, but he was more of a kind of a like a football manager, you know, he wasn't
00:53:02
so kind of technical or out on the field. Like we'd be training and he'd be
00:53:05
in the he'd be in his office having, you know, smoking [ __ ] and uh different era.
00:53:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. But and um and so yeah, so I kind of learned from the from the
00:53:15
players, you know, I basically had to learn the game from from the players and just getting out there and playing.
00:53:20
>> And then after five years at Wigan, you end up in Perth. >> Uh yeah, Leed. So um so yeah I I had in
00:53:28
my contract uh an opportunity to go off and play uh an offseason in in in Australia. So in my last year at Leads I
00:53:37
um I it was the first year they they had um uh West the Western Reds came into the into the competition as an expansion
00:53:45
team based out of Perth. Uh so yeah so um Peter Mholland was the coach and he came over and he signed me up and so it
00:53:52
was it was just it was like a 10 week stint pretty much. So um so I went out there and and and that was my first
00:53:59
experience of playing in Australia which was I just Yeah. I mean it was just a different different level. Um and yeah I
00:54:05
was I was kind of like this is me. This is what I want to be doing. >> Well and what do you mean like in terms
00:54:10
of the professionalism or the the setup or what do you mean a different level? >> Well it just Yeah. I mean, the English
00:54:17
game um is great, you know, um but but kind of I guess not as structured as as the the Australian competition and you
00:54:26
know, out of all the rugby or in rugby league I've played, I mean that well what is the NRL competition now is it's
00:54:33
you know it's next level. It's it's tough. It's it's you know every week is
00:54:37
is tough and uh and you've got to have a thick skin where you're out there
00:54:42
because there's a lot of talking going on and you know there's big hits and
00:54:45
there's a lot of Yeah, it's it's I just thought this is awesome. I just loved
00:54:49
it. >> Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. And so and we had some we had some really good
00:54:55
players at at um up there in Perth. they were kind of seen as as a bunch of kind
00:55:00
of hasbins and uh you know um but you know your Mark I were there and um um Ronny House and people like this and we
00:55:08
actually had a quite a successful little stint um so I enjoyed that but it was just kind of um before I went to Perth
00:55:16
the ARL Super League thing was starting to kind of heat up and I >> Oh yeah yeah yeah give us a history
00:55:22
lesson for anyone that doesn't sort of remember that or recall that. Yeah. What
00:55:25
was that what was that period like? Uh well I mean it was basically you know the pay channels kind of going the war.
00:55:31
You had um News of the World, you know with um the Murdoch and then Kerry Packer with Optus and um and so the game
00:55:41
kind of got fractured to to a large degree and and I actually remember going off to um to play golf with Bobby
00:55:48
Golding. He was um he play he was at Leads when I first got the little halfback. Um, and it was on the radio
00:55:56
talking about how the the English competition was moving to Super League. What's the Super League? And uh, anyway,
00:56:02
we just pulled up and I got this phone call from a lawyer in Bradford and he said, "What are you doing?" I said,
00:56:07
"We're just about to play golf." He said, "Well, get your ass in the car,
00:56:09
get over to my office because the um, the ARIRL guys are in town, the Australian Rugby League guys." I'm like,
00:56:14
"Who who are they?" You know, what's what say anyway? So, I just packed up
00:56:18
and and and headed over and walked up the stairs thinking I'd be the only one
00:56:21
in the in the waiting room. I walked in, there's about 10 other guys who was
00:56:24
sitting in there and all, you know, from different teams from Wigan and bloody Sulford or whatever. And I was kind
00:56:31
like, what's going on? Like um but one by one guys were going into the boardroom and kind of going in looking
00:56:37
all perplexed and and then coming up with the biggest bloody grins on their faces you've ever seen. And so my turn
00:56:43
came and I walked in and there was a lawyer from ARIRL and Frank Stanton who was who would eventually end up being um
00:56:50
he was the CEO at Manley. So he was the CEO when when I when I was a manly but but he was there representing the the
00:56:56
IRL. So basically we sat down they said okay Craig if you sign a you know ARIRL contract um you know p pledging your
00:57:05
loyalty to the IRL uh this will be in your bank account within the next seven days and this will be your you know um
00:57:11
minimum retainer then you got to negotiate with your club on top of that. And so you're looking at this going
00:57:17
Jesus you know it's a no-brainer. So like, oh, I better go and talk to the club about that. So we're back in two
00:57:22
and three with with leads and everything. And in the end, I end up signing this ARIRL contract. And that's
00:57:27
when the manly thing started to kind of come into play. >> So ARIRL is like the NRL now as we know
00:57:32
it. >> Y can you remember what Yeah. Was it was it just like a lolly scramble with cash
00:57:36
at the time? >> Pretty much. >> Yeah, >> pretty much. It was a fantastic time to
00:57:40
be a player. There's no doubt about that. >> Yeah. Can you remember the sort of
00:57:42
figures? >> Uh not well not really. It was they were pretty big. Um and you know some some of
00:57:51
the figures that were banded around were you know unbelievable for for the time you know it's all relative right
00:57:56
>> but uh but there are a lot of boys that did pretty well out of that the
00:58:00
unfortunate part of that was that it almost crippled the game completely but but what's kind of you know the phoenix
00:58:06
that rises right and what's come out of that since you know that NRL competition
00:58:12
is pretty cool pretty amazing so but yeah they had to go through all that to get to this get to that stage
00:58:18
Did Did you see a lot of your teammates do silly stuff with the cash? You know, cars or I don't know, just just gifts
00:58:26
for friends or >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know. Like it's uh there's that
00:58:30
saying easy come easy go. It's it's hard at that age. Like it's um it's really
00:58:33
impressive that you had the the the foresight or the wisdom to, you know, to be smart with your cash.
00:58:38
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. But I mean I guess for a lot of guys um you know that aren't
00:58:43
from around money, it's hard to know the value of it, right? Um and and it's the
00:58:48
same thing happening today except these guys, you know, there's some pretty considerable cash that's that's thrown
00:58:53
around. Um so, you know, having having that kind of support network around to kind of help kind of guide them through
00:59:00
that is really important. And I think the you know, the NRL do a really good job. Um you know, rugby here in New
00:59:06
Zealand, the players association and and with the agents kind of do our bit to try and help them kind of navigate all
00:59:12
that. Um, but it's hard and you can lead a horse to water. Um, but at the end of
00:59:17
the day, guys got to want to do it and um, yeah, people have different different values and you know, for some
00:59:23
people it doesn't really matter. >> Yeah, different priorities. >> Different priorities. Exactly.
00:59:28
>> So, after that year in Per Oh, that that year in Perth, you got to play the the
00:59:31
Warriors in their first season. Yeah. How was What was that like? >> Yeah, that was pretty pretty cool to
00:59:36
kind of come home and and play against the Warriors. So, that bit that day. Uh, and actually that was a pretty bad day
00:59:41
for Frano. um you recently had on he he broke his leg in that game. I can remember the bloody snap here in the
00:59:47
snap. Um it makes me kind of go oh Jesus. But um yeah, but that that was that was cool. That was uh yeah, but one
00:59:56
one thing I remembered um coming into the on the bus to that game and it was pissing down and it was a horrible night
01:00:02
and all the Australian they're all saying, you know, bloody [ __ ] I'll win
01:00:06
and and um and it's always stuck with me that you know um this place should be an
01:00:11
absolute fortress for the Warriors. You know, no one should come here and win because they all hate coming here, you
01:00:18
know, >> especially in the middle 3-hour flight, >> especially like in the middle of winter
01:00:22
and it's kind of damp and cold and miserable and, you know, they all used to run around in these singlets at
01:00:28
training buddy, you know, in Sydney and Brisbane and that. I mean, this place should be like they should make this
01:00:34
like you just don't, you know, you don't want to come here. You don't want to
01:00:37
come here cuz you're going to get bashed and you're going to be cold and
01:00:40
miserable. Do will the Warriors ever win? >> Yeah, I think they will. Yeah, I think
01:00:45
we will. >> When in our lifetime? >> Well, I hope so. You know, I hope so.
01:00:49
Um, yeah. Um, I I personally don't have like a whole lot of dealings directly
01:00:54
with the Warriors. Um, I I kind of concentrate with my work more in the union space, but but recently I've had
01:01:00
more and more. I've got a few, you know, younger players that have been involved,
01:01:03
and I'm really impressed with the the way that they go about their business and the way they look after the young
01:01:08
guys and, you know, they do do a really good job. Um and and so that's been really good to see. Um yeah, I don't
01:01:15
know. It's it's it's a hard one to put your finger on. You know, I think people
01:01:19
underestimate and not making excuses, but that travel aspect, I think I think that it plays a bigger part than what
01:01:27
people probably appreciate. I know, you know, from when I was playing in um Perth and it was a longer flight, you
01:01:32
know, it's 5 hours down to Sydney or whatever um as opposed to three, but it's still just that that those time
01:01:37
changes and in and out and you know, um I'm sure that has some kind of effect.
01:01:42
But um but at some stage, you know, I think they're going to they're going to
01:01:47
come through there. Certainly the talent and there's more and more that use in
01:01:51
talent. It's just it's just kind of getting the right stuff and and getting
01:01:54
the right mix cuz you can't, you know, you can't just have rock stars and you
01:01:57
can't just have, you know, grinders. You got to have you got to have a bit of
01:02:01
everything >> to win those competitions. >> Yeah. There's a saying like um a a
01:02:06
champion team will always beat a team of champions or something like that. >> Absolutely. So true. And that's what we
01:02:11
found at um at Leads. I mean, we had this team like amazing individuals, but you know, we lacked kind of discipline,
01:02:18
you know, week to week discipline. We we'd go and beat Wigan who were the top
01:02:21
team. We we'd beat them one week, but then we go and lose to this bottom team
01:02:24
the next week. So we we you know we had a team full of champions but we weren't
01:02:29
a champion team. Whereas Wigan >> uh were the they had they had some really good players but they just had
01:02:34
guys kind of like I guess the Crusaders kind of environment now where you just come in and you either kind of you know
01:02:40
you float or you sink and um and and that's the type of team that wins championships.
01:02:46
>> So 1996 you end up in Manley. How how does By the way, Manley at the time sort
01:02:51
of like um I suppose kind of like how Penri has been in recent years. It was like a dynasty, right?
01:02:56
>> Just like an epic epic team. I remember at the time like >> Yeah. The the PepsiC Eagles. Yeah.
01:03:02
>> Yeah. There's so many supporters here in New Zealand at the time. It was like
01:03:04
iconic. >> Yeah. >> Great team. You you were in it. Reggie >> D Hler. Yeah.
01:03:09
>> Um John Hawardi. Y Steve Menses Cliffy Lions just Nick Kos just goes on and on.
01:03:16
Yeah. It was it was a it was a fantastic team to be part of. Um and Bob Fton was
01:03:22
a was an amazing coach um technically and and you know he was a scary dude as well. You know like you went in the
01:03:29
change room after the game and we you know if we'd had a loss you just didn't
01:03:33
want to be you just didn't want to catch his eye. Um, and you knew that he'd be
01:03:39
going straight home just to dissect, you know, and he'd come to training the next
01:03:42
day and you sit there going through all the analysis and everything and he, you know, it was obvious he'd spent the
01:03:47
whole bloody night sitting there just kind of chopping through tape and stuff. >> Wow.
01:03:52
>> Um, but yeah, no, it was it was it was very cool and um, yeah, kind of intimidating coming into a team like
01:03:58
that, you know, just full of rock stars. Um, but they were again just a bunch, you know, great bunch of guys. And you
01:04:05
you um knew Matthew Ridge quite well, but he didn't have anything to do with
01:04:09
like um luring you to the team, right? >> No. >> No, >> no, no. Um no. I got a I got a phone
01:04:15
call from uh Frank Stanton, who was the uh CEO um and uh so I'd um I'd played against
01:04:25
Leeds had played against Australia and um and we well we we got a bit of a hinding, but I had reasonably good
01:04:32
night. Um and I was I was playing I was marking Malmaninga. Um so I managed to contain Mal which obviously impressed
01:04:39
them. Um and so um so Bob was kind of like oh yeah be pretty keen to get him over. So that was that was kind of how
01:04:47
it all started and unfolded from there. When I was at the Reds uh went down and played at Manley at Brookie um had a
01:04:55
good game there as well and I guess that probably helped. >> So um so yeah, next thing um yeah I'm
01:05:00
off to Manley. What was the biggest surprise you got when you got there in terms of like the
01:05:05
team environment and the training? Was it like a different level of professionalism to what you had
01:05:09
experienced before? >> Yeah, it was. Yeah. Um but it was the interesting thing too was with all
01:05:16
the Super League stuff going on. Um there was a bit of contention about my contract at um at Leeds and um and
01:05:25
whether I'd fulfilled obligations or not. And and so of course you got all the NRL lawyers saying well you hadn't
01:05:30
signed up to play in a you know super league competition all this and cuz you know they're saying you need to get over
01:05:36
you need to go to Sydney. I'm like well so in the end I was like okay I'm I'm
01:05:40
off. So, um, so I I left Manly, uh, Leadeds and and headed off to to Manley, and I was sitting in my new apartment,
01:05:50
um, overlooking the sea on Manley Beach, thinking, "This is pretty awesome." And
01:05:54
I got a knock on the door and there's this guy standing there with his papers,
01:05:58
and he goes, "Yeah, Craig Innist." I said, "Yeah." He goes, "You've been
01:06:00
served." And so, um, so I was, yeah, I've been sued for breach of contract.
01:06:06
Um, so that kind of hung over us all the way through that period as well, which made things kind of interesting. Um, but
01:06:13
it was kind of taken care of by the by NRL lawyers until later on it wasn't,
01:06:18
which is another kind of story down the track. But um but yeah, as far as the the competition, um I I I learned so
01:06:27
much in the first few weeks being at Manley and just being, you know, um around those players and just, you know,
01:06:35
a little bit more structure than than what I was used to playing in in um in England. And like I was saying before,
01:06:42
just, you know, it was just tough and pretty brutal and and um but I yeah, I just I just I kind of found my thing,
01:06:50
you know, >> um and really really loved it. What's it like going to a grand final?
01:06:56
>> Uh yeah. Well, that was Yeah, that was amazing. Like um they they lost it the
01:07:01
year the year before with the with Cry Bankstown. They had won the minor premiership and um and they expected to
01:07:07
win that I'd lost. So going into this one, we'd won the minor premiership
01:07:10
again and then going into this there was no way they're going to lose this game.
01:07:14
Um so I mean sometimes you can kind of be a little bit you know bit nervous kind of going into these into these
01:07:22
games but that particular week no one was nervous. Everyone was just like let's just get out there and we just
01:07:26
want to get this done get get this in the bag. And uh so to to um to kind of get that as a feather in the cap was
01:07:35
pretty amazing. you know, I'm something I'm really proud of in the premiership.
01:07:39
>> Yeah. And you scored the first try. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. How how how far into the game was
01:07:43
that? >> Uh wasn't I don't think it was too far. Maybe 10 minutes, something like that.
01:07:47
>> [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um scoring scoring in a final is amazing. Right.
01:07:52
>> I bet John helped the ball by like a quarter of a second. And I've never let
01:07:56
him live it down like telling he's the slowest winger ever to play the game.
01:08:00
But um but yeah, no, it was Yeah, it was pretty cool. Very cool. And there's that
01:08:05
um iconic photo of that wind. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Just Do you have that framed at home or
01:08:11
anything? >> No, I don't. No, I don't have that. >> It's a beautiful photo.
01:08:13
>> Yeah, it's a great photo. Yeah. >> Like there's that saying a picture says
01:08:16
a thousand words and that definitely does. Like it's just elation. >> Yeah.
01:08:20
>> Yeah. What's what's that vibe like in a changing room after a win like that? Uh
01:08:25
well it's it's kind of it's kind of bizarre because um you know there's that
01:08:30
initial excitement and you know uh but but then it's almost replaced with a bit
01:08:35
of a what now? You know we've kind of done it and what are we going to do? What's happening next? you know, and so
01:08:43
everyone kind of sits here a little bit kind of like stunned mullets for for a little bit, you know, until it kind of
01:08:49
really seeps in that, you know, this is what you've achieved and and then of
01:08:53
course you you know you get on the bus and you head back to the to the Leagues Club and you know that's absolutely cho
01:08:59
block just bursting and and that's where that's when the fun really kind of
01:09:02
begins. uh you know once you get back to the leads club and kind of surrounded by
01:09:05
your supporters and you know chucking up on the stage and you know um so yeah the
01:09:11
whole experience was was pretty amazing and kind of like I guess uh when it leads going to the challenge cup um it's
01:09:18
not something I grew up ever aspiring to you know to to go to Wembley and play in
01:09:24
the Challenge Cup final and just like I'd never really thought about winning
01:09:28
NRL or you know rugby league premierships but um But amazing to kind of be part of that experience, but also
01:09:36
to share with your teammates who have spent all their lives, you know, manifesting that experience and going
01:09:44
through that and actually achieving that, you know, and they're like Mark Carroll with tears bloody rolling down
01:09:49
his cheeks and, >> you know, things like that, which which was pretty pretty amazing.
01:09:53
>> And do you get a ring? You get a championship? >> Yeah. Yeah. I got the ring.
01:09:56
>> Where's that? >> Uh, it's just at home. just yeah just just locked up somewhere.
01:10:03
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. But but you okay so it's not it's it's it's it's like a medal. It's not
01:10:08
something you wear, but it is something you treasure. >> No. Yeah. I think the boys are all kind
01:10:11
of wearing the lid for the first 24 hours or whatever. And uh but Yeah. Yeah. Um they'll put away.
01:10:18
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Man, that's unbelievable. Was Mad Monday
01:10:20
a thing back then? >> Mad Monday was a big thing back then. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think that's when
01:10:25
my haircut changed from uh I think I uh I got down to the Stain Hotel um where I'd gone home just to kind of check up
01:10:34
and make sure everyone was okay and and then headed back to the Stain and place was pretty much empty of all our
01:10:40
players and said to the, you know, one of the bar weather and they said, "Oh,
01:10:44
they're in that back room over there." So, I opened the door just all these
01:10:46
bald heads. So they had the razors out and uh so they grabbed me and yeah, they had the same haircut ever since.
01:10:56
>> I don't know how you got the energy to party after a game like that cuz
01:10:59
physically and mentally you got to be exhausted, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just you just find
01:11:04
it find a reserve somewhere. >> You find it. You just manage it. Yeah. It's I mean it's a chance just to you
01:11:09
know I mean it's so intense all year, you know, and to and to achieve it and
01:11:15
you know you just don't want to let it go. you know, you just want to you want
01:11:17
to keep that kind of um celebration going as long as you can and then eventually you just run out of puff and
01:11:23
and that's it. But um but you certainly make the most of it >> and and that season which was
01:11:29
incredible. So bubbling under in the background was all the legal stuff that you were talking about before. Was that
01:11:33
happening through the entire season? >> Yeah. Well, not so much. Well, then we
01:11:36
went into the second year. Um and um and you know we had another good year, won the minor premiership and then they end
01:11:43
up playing Newcastle in the final and we end up losing that one. Um you in the last kind of seconds of uh just before
01:11:50
extra time. Um Darren Albert the Newcastle winger scored and that was that was it. Um so that was a completely
01:11:58
different experience to winning it the year before just the I guess devastation of of losing a final. Um but then kind
01:12:06
of into the off season and and um uh Bob Fton pul pulled me aside one day and he
01:12:12
said mate it's not going great with this bloody all this legal stuff and and like
01:12:17
I was mentioning before they the leagues clubs were doing it pretty tough you know having to pay out all these players
01:12:24
and you know kind of pretty much bank um bankrupted a lot of clubs and and that's
01:12:28
where you start to see all those merges start to happen like you know and St. George got together and remember Manley
01:12:34
and North kind of combined for a while. Um it's all all this type of stuff all
01:12:38
on the back of you know this period they've been through. Uh so it's like um
01:12:44
mate you you know um you might end up having to go back to leads you know and I was like well [ __ ] that you know I
01:12:51
enjoyed my time up there but you know I'm kind of heading home rather than kind of heading back. Um and that's when
01:12:58
we kind of engaged with with rugby union as a potential, you know, and um and so
01:13:03
that's what we did and and end up kind of working out this deal with with the
01:13:08
British rugby league and um like a a transfer fee, compromised transfer fee and and I came home and back to back to
01:13:16
Rugby Union. >> Was that stressful for you at the time even though there's lawyers deal dealing
01:13:20
with it? Like how do how do you fully focus on on the game and the job in hand when there's that going on in the
01:13:25
background? Um, I think that's well it's it's all you can do, you know. I think
01:13:30
it's it's all you can do really is is just kind of focus on what you can what
01:13:34
you can do. And I guess, you know, >> I think that's what helps to be a decent
01:13:40
or a decent player is, you know, being able to just focus on your job and let stuff kind of over the, you know, over
01:13:48
the top and and and also have good people around you to be able to, you know, sort through all the rubbish. So
01:13:54
you can just get on get on with your job. >> The power is back on. Should we resume?
01:14:01
>> Did that sort of give you an insight or an idea about the sort of career path
01:14:05
you could take postp profofessional sport? >> Yeah, I mean I guess not initially. Um
01:14:10
but but you know you kind of like everyone gets to that point in their careers. It's like okay what's going to
01:14:15
happen? What am I going to do next? and and I had kind of started to think about
01:14:18
it because you know through my rugular career you you know um you're surrounded
01:14:24
by guys with agents and you know you see the good ones you and I think you you start to form uh when you've been doing
01:14:30
it as long as as as I had been uh forming an idea of what it takes to you know um I guess be a professional rugby
01:14:41
player or league player and you know the the the resource that you need around you. So, you're basically um the way I
01:14:49
look at it is you know you're you're own business and um and so you you know you
01:14:54
need a support network, you need your family, you need your friends, you need a good accountant, you need a good
01:14:59
lawyer if you need a lawyer and you need an agent um that's there to kind of
01:15:03
bring it all together and really just another cog in the wheel. So um so that's how I started to kind of think
01:15:09
and and then one thing led to another and and um through a a mutual friend Tony Kemp who I played with up in
01:15:16
England. Uh Kembi had a mate Bruce Sher um who was starting to dabble in in that
01:15:21
space as well. He Bruce had come from a financial services type background and we got together and uh yeah we started
01:15:28
um started uh I think it was called direct sports uh management back in back at the start and we were running around
01:15:35
in board shorts and t-shirts and you know grabbed a few uh teammates as clients to begin with and away we went
01:15:41
and um yeah that that was the start of it really that sort of opens um this last chapter uh quite nicely but first
01:15:49
first of all I've just got a couple more to end with on the sports side of things. Did Did you ever have an agent
01:15:54
through through your career? >> Not really. >> Was it just like lawyers that and
01:15:58
accountants that you leaned on or what? >> Yeah. Well, well, yeah. Grant Mar, I
01:16:01
guess, was as close to an agent as as I as I had. Um, and but you know, if I if I look back over my career, could I have
01:16:09
done with having like on the ground, you know, Grant was back in New Zealand obviously, um, and and doing his his own
01:16:15
thing? He wasn't an agent as such. Um, could I have done with having an agent?
01:16:19
Yeah, probably. you know, there's probably a few things that would have been ironed out um a lot quicker through
01:16:24
professional advice um than me trying to kind of wrangle my own way through it. Um but it did set me up, you know, to to
01:16:32
be able to, I guess, move into the space with a bit of confidence. >> Yeah. So, you moved back to New Zealand.
01:16:37
Um does it piss you off that you never got to play for the Kiwis? >> Uh not really. Um I I guess you know
01:16:45
when when I was playing in the UK you know for whatever reason you know just wasn't a wasn't really kind of
01:16:52
considered um but uh I came back to Australia you know obviously playing pretty well
01:16:59
and at that point they were pretty keen to to get me involved but the whole ARIRL super league will stop that. So,
01:17:05
so New Zealand rugby league had gone with the Super League. I was ARL. So, I mean in a funny kind of little twist, I
01:17:11
have got a a cap, an international cap, but it's for the world world 13 against
01:17:16
Australia, you know. Um, but but yeah, I I guess having never grown up really wanting to aspire to be a Kiwi, you
01:17:25
know, in that team, I guess, you know, I mean, I I I don't sit here, you know,
01:17:29
today going, "Oh, you man, I wish I'd have made that team." Um, yeah, it's just, yeah, would would
01:17:36
have been nice, I guess, but at the end of the day, didn't really doesn't really
01:17:38
matter to me. >> It's funny that yeah, you only know what you know. It's like you were saying
01:17:42
earlier about winning the um the championship ring with Manley and some of the guys crying and, you know,
01:17:48
because it wasn't your heritage or your history, you don't sort of understand
01:17:51
just how much it means to other people. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's right.
01:17:55
I mean, and that and that's not, you know, taken away. >> No, absolutely. you know, from from my
01:17:59
own experience and and the enjoyment I got out of that. But, you know, seeing those guys and it was the same in with
01:18:04
Leeds, you know, going to Wembley, like Leeds hadn't been to Wembley for years
01:18:07
and and and you know, we we were off to Wembley and and teammates were just like
01:18:12
they were beside themselves, >> you know, I mean, that's all they'd ever
01:18:15
aspired to as footballers was to to you know, that trip to Wembley. Um, and what
01:18:20
an experience, you know, 100,000 people in a bloody football stadium. Pretty amazing, man. It's the stuff of
01:18:27
goosebumps. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like you walk out there and you just can't
01:18:30
believe it really. >> Yeah. So you return to rugby and um you know that's where you end your career.
01:18:36
What what Yeah. I I think you sort of answered that. I was going to ask what pulled you back to New Zealand rugby,
01:18:40
but it was sort of like you had you're in no man's land. >> Yeah. Well, I kind of was a little bit.
01:18:45
I mean I could have come back to the Warriors. Um but you know, for whatever reason, you know, I I didn't want to go
01:18:51
play for another leagues club after having those two amazing years at Manley. um rugby was an option. Um and I
01:18:57
guess there was that, you know, that little bit that you wonder if you can kind of, you know, kind of get back to
01:19:02
all past glories and and continue from there. But that wasn't to be. But uh but
01:19:07
yeah um I guess coming full circle was was was great and um you know coming back and coming home was you know it was
01:19:13
a an important time to come home and um and yeah I mean the the guys I played with at the blues are all you know a lot
01:19:20
of those guys are still good mates and uh you know but a lot younger than the group that I kind of finished with.
01:19:26
>> Yes. So where are we now? Is this the late ' 90s? >> Uh this is Yeah. Yep. This is late 90s.
01:19:33
>> Yeah. So you so you did you have a young family then or? No. >> No. Uh well I I retired around I think I
01:19:38
was about 31 32. So G Gabriel my oldest was was born kind of around about that time. I was just finishing off.
01:19:44
>> Yeah. >> How how were those last year? So you you played the um 1998 Super Rugby final.
01:19:49
>> Um no I um no things it didn't go that great actually. I came home uh played
01:19:56
played in a um you know warm-up kind of tournament in Australia. I went to South
01:20:01
Africa and first game I blew my knee out which was uh unbelievable given like I'd
01:20:06
hardly put a bloody piece of ice on my leg uh for three or four years before playing league come home and and and did
01:20:13
my knee. So that was pretty much me out for that you know for that entire season
01:20:17
and um so yeah it uh yeah I mean like if I look back at it um you know I I I enjoyed I enjoyed being back and I
01:20:26
enjoyed whether I I didn't I didn't enjoy the rugby as much as I had done in
01:20:31
the past and I and I I think you know um having kind of gone off and gone in a different direction you know and then
01:20:37
kind of come back to it I wasn't back long before I was kind of going I don't
01:20:41
know if this is you know where really want to be from a rugby point of view, but but from a life point of view, it
01:20:47
was exactly where I needed to be. >> It's funny how it's almost like your
01:20:50
body telling you that the time's right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, by the time I I
01:20:55
you know, I retired, I think I was I was only about 31, but you know, that year kind of leading into u into into
01:21:02
retirement. Exactly that. You know, my body was I just knew it was it was time to give it up. you know, when when the
01:21:09
eyes are saying there's a gap and go and legs are saying go to hell. >> Not anymore, Posty.
01:21:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's kind of like and and you know, and these the younger guys
01:21:18
are getting only getting quicker. Um so, yeah. So, I made the decision that, you
01:21:23
know, that was going to be it and was trying to get on with other things in my life.
01:21:26
>> Yeah. You were you were in um the Blues with Jonah that last year, eh? >> Uh yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Actually, Jonah
01:21:33
was when when I did my knee in South Africa, Jonah was my roommate. And um and uh yeah, I mean, like everyone's got
01:21:40
Jonah stories, you know, and and um but I tell you and and it's, you know, I
01:21:44
mean, when you're in a rugby team, this is just part of the course, but you know, I remember Jonah staying up with
01:21:48
me pretty much all night, you know, bringing ice in, making sure that I was, you know, had plenty of ice for my knee
01:21:53
cuz you, you know, you're icing every bloody half an hour or whatever. um going out bringing back food, bringing
01:21:59
food back and he was basically my nurse for 24 hours. Um you know, he was a great guy and um but just one of the
01:22:05
boys. >> That's such a cool story. >> Oh, it's you know, >> look after the old guy.
01:22:10
>> Yeah, look after the old boys. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But um Yeah. Yeah. No, he
01:22:16
Yeah, that's what you'd expect. They kind of, you know, it's there's no kind
01:22:20
of ears and graces. Uh doesn't matter who you are, it's everyone mucks in.
01:22:25
Were you were you when you knew the end was in sight? Were you sort of like anxietyridden? Like were you worried
01:22:30
about the next chapter? I I just like very few people get to experience what you've experienced like you know the
01:22:36
roar of the crowd or you know whether it's running in out in Wembley or you know um winning a league title or you
01:22:43
know finishing third in a rugby world cup. I can't imagine how uh terrifying
01:22:47
that is knowing that that chapter's ending and uh whether anything in life's
01:22:51
going to bring you the same sort of level of joy again. >> Yeah. No true. It's uh yeah, it's you
01:22:56
you you certainly need to be thinking about it well well before you know that uh that message comes from the CEO
01:23:02
whatever that mate there's no more contracts and she's a pretty steep curve
01:23:06
down as far as earnings and everything else go you know when you've you know
01:23:10
when when that when that message comes so yeah I've been thinking about it for
01:23:14
a while and and talking to different people so you know I was kind of ready to I was ready I was you know I' I'd
01:23:20
kind of satisfied with where I was at as far as what I'd achieved D and and I was
01:23:24
ready actually ready to move on with the next part of my life. So, you know, I don't I don't kind of look back and go,
01:23:29
"Oh, you know, did I really miss it or anything?" Not really. You know, there
01:23:32
was plenty of other opportunities and other other challenges out there. And so, it's just a matter of getting on
01:23:37
with it. >> A lot I mean, you you'd be you'd know more about this than what anyone would.
01:23:42
Um, but a lot of people, I suppose, struggle with that piece, like the piece about what's next. You must see this
01:23:46
time and time again, year in year out. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah. How how long did it take you to
01:23:52
figure out you sort of mentioned a few names before like Tony Kemp and um Bruce?
01:23:56
>> Bruce. >> Y >> So you sort of did they sort of like talk you into this idea or did you have
01:24:00
the idea? Oh, no. I kind of had had the idea myself and, you know, talking to Kemp and that and he said, "Well, you
01:24:05
need to talk to Bruce because he's, you know, he's starting to think about stuff
01:24:08
like this and start you starting to dabble and had a couple of clients and and so we we spoke and our philosophies
01:24:14
pretty much matched up on what we thought, you know, and and it was good. where, you know, me coming from a
01:24:19
professional playing background, so kind of understanding that side of things and
01:24:22
and Bruce coming from a financial services type background and, you know, really staunch on, you know, budgeting
01:24:28
and and uh, you know, making sure that these guys had good advice all the way through. So, he he brought that. So, we
01:24:34
actually had a really good mix to kind of go out there and and um, you know, pitch for new clients, whatever.
01:24:39
and and I often kind of certainly certainly in the early days used to pull them up quite a bit and say, "Mate, you
01:24:45
know, you can be mowing your bloody lawn sticks the way you you know, stop make him get out there and do it, you know."
01:24:51
Um but but it worked. It worked really well and and and our partnership kind of went all the way through to today
01:24:57
really. >> Who who some of your early clients? >> Um >> can you drop some names or is it sort of
01:25:03
um frowned upon? Um yeah, I mean early clients um well I can tell you the first client we ever put into Japan for
01:25:12
instance was Romy Roati and if you remember Romy's played for the Holland >> um and a good lesson there was you go
01:25:19
and play for Toyota you don't roll up in a BMW uh >> it's got to be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
01:25:27
>> yeah um Oh god. Uh Jerome Kono. Um, you know, Drone was one of those guys that
01:25:32
we picked up as a school boy and we had all the way through his career and even now, you know, he's um and guys, you
01:25:39
know, those kind of guys, they're always client, you know, we're always there if
01:25:43
they ever need us for anything, you know. Um, but yeah, it's a it's a massive fl I'll I'll get kind of lost in
01:25:50
it. But um but yeah, we we've had some great clients over the years. >> Well, you've got so much credibility and
01:25:55
you've been doing it so long like uh you know Yeah, you're very early to the
01:25:58
game, right? Yeah. Um and with that comes like credibility and experience and a whole bunch of stuff. What what is
01:26:04
it about um Japan that makes it such a fascinating or intriguing rugby destination? Can't be just the money.
01:26:09
>> Um no, it's not just the money. The money's, you know, it's on par with, you
01:26:13
know, the likes of France and and and the UK. Um but I I think just the fact that it's so close to home, you know,
01:26:20
it's a like 10-hour flight. Um and I think the guys like that. um as far as as far as longevity goes, you know, it's
01:26:28
a it's a good competition these days. I mean, they um they they have a lot of
01:26:32
the best players in the world are playing in that competition. Um but the unique thing is, you know, you might
01:26:36
have World Cup winners playing next to guys who still driving a truck for the uh you know, for the company and then
01:26:43
turning up the training at 5:00 and then going back and drive the truck in the morning. And so you've got that kind of
01:26:48
mix of full full-on professionals and amateur players, you know, all kind of combined into one. So, so it's a pretty
01:26:56
unique type of environment, but they they do a good job of looking after the families. You know, they um um yeah,
01:27:02
they have good accommodation. Um you know, they're pretty law, the Japanese as far as you look after them, you do
01:27:08
the right thing by them. And we tell the guys, you know, you go to Japan, you got
01:27:11
to change your focus a little bit. You know, you're there to to help bring on
01:27:15
the other Japanese players to to set a good example in the gym and, you know, and to obviously to help them win games.
01:27:21
But if you know you you keep your nose clean, you stay out of trouble, if you do all these things, well, you could be
01:27:25
there for a long long time. So guys do, you know, some some of them been up there for bloody 10 years.
01:27:31
>> And um what's the most frustrating thing about your your job? Like what do people
01:27:34
think you do versus what you actually do? And has has the movie um Jerry Maguire with Tom Cruz um ruined
01:27:41
everything for you? Does it is it a pain in your ass? >> Um not not really cuz we you know that's
01:27:46
kind of I guess that's been our philosophy. It's kind of along those lines of a Jerry McGuire, you know,
01:27:50
where it's not just about >> showing you the money. >> Yeah. It's not about just kind of doing
01:27:56
the the contract side of it's actually probably the easiest. It's, you know,
01:27:59
the the the most satisfaction you get is the that pathway just helping to, I guess, keep momentum going in someone's
01:28:07
career. And of course, there's always, you know, these injuries and these loss
01:28:10
of form and, you know, all sorts of drama that go on in in people's lives. And it's kind of navigating through all
01:28:16
that to eventually, you know, finish your career with, like I was saying earlier, with something a little bit
01:28:21
more to show than a few rugby jerseys and a few trips away. Um, and if they can do that and if you've been part of
01:28:27
that, that's that's pretty rewarding. >> And in 2022, um, you were acquired by
01:28:33
Wasserman. What is Wasiman for anyone that doesn't know. >> Uh, so Wasiman are are are a big, um,
01:28:40
American, uh, sports entertainment company. So on this on the sports side of things, um you know, all the American
01:28:47
sports, you know, the uh NFL, NBA, uh Major League Baseball, you name it, they're they're into it. Um uh football,
01:28:56
probably the biggest football agency in the world, um up in Europe. Um on the entertainment side of things, you know,
01:29:02
they manage, uh the likes of Coldplay and Drake, and look, it just goes on and on. Um, so it was started by this guy
01:29:09
Casey Wasserman. Um, who, you know, started off with with a few people and just kind of grew this kind of piece of
01:29:17
of a company. Um, and basically they just took us as their rugby and rugby league guys and bolted us on because
01:29:24
there was no one doing that. Uh, after they after they acquired us, they went out and bought another company, CSM,
01:29:30
which was big English uh, sports entertainment company and the only real crossover was rugby. Um so you know guys
01:29:36
that we've been throwing hand grenades at you know over the years where all of
01:29:39
a sudden they're our um our colleagues you know which was kind of interesting
01:29:44
but um but it's been it's been awesome. So what what we've been able to create
01:29:48
is this great you know rugby and rugby league agency um like you know France has 21 agents and they basically you
01:29:56
know the whole French team are clients the whole 23 of them 24 clients same in the UK you know big number of those
01:30:04
Lions clients um so around there in South Africa um but the good thing is that we're basically just been left
01:30:11
alone to carry on and do what we do you know but with this resourcing behind us you know and and and this network this
01:30:17
amazing network around the world for our players to tap into. So uh so we're very
01:30:22
lucky in in in that respect that we can do what we've always done and offer the
01:30:26
same kind of services and you know do all that but with this resource bonus as well.
01:30:30
>> I mean it's every business owner's dream right to start something from scratch
01:30:34
and build it up to the point where someone wants to buy it out. So are you on a salary now?
01:30:39
>> Yeah, I'm basically >> you're a wage slave. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:42
>> Oh my god, that's so cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um >> you still love it? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I
01:30:46
And I've been able to change my role. Um, so with with Eastport and that was
01:30:51
who we were before. Um, and actually the Eastport story was quite cool too because you know we there was Bruce and
01:30:57
and Duncan Sandlat who's another Kiwi had been up in the UK and specializing
01:31:02
coaching. Um, but we wanted to turn it into this global thing, but we didn't
01:31:06
really know how to go about it. And um, Duncan just happened to be seated next to this guy. Um, um, uh, oh god damn.
01:31:15
I've got a I've got a blank. Um Oh, Peter Kenyon. Peter Kenyon who was who
01:31:21
had been the CEO at Manchester United and Chelsea and u so he was telling he was telling Peter that you know we
01:31:29
wanted to create this thing and you know do you know anyone that could help us kind of bring it all together and he
01:31:33
said oh yeah I can probably help you with that. So um so we jumped Bruce and I jumped on a on a plane and we went up
01:31:39
to Jersey up to where um where Peter was and we basically sat in a room for three
01:31:44
three days with him and we came out with this international company. He kind of brought people in from around the world.
01:31:49
Um and at the end of it we got cheeky with him and said you know you got any interest? He said yeah. So he became our
01:31:55
um our uh chairman and um yeah and off we went and kind of built this Cortif rugby business which was which was
01:32:03
pretty cool. And I remember being on the plane um going back with Bruce and just
01:32:07
going I mean has that just really happened or all of a sudden we've got the former Manchester United and Chelsea
01:32:13
CEO is our is our rugby chairman. Does he know what he's doing? So um so that
01:32:18
was pretty cool. >> Well I suppose you're like well sport is sport like if he can if he can do it at
01:32:23
that level for the round ball he can do it at this level for the oval. Well, he was just a great sounding board, you
01:32:28
know, for all sorts of things. And um and then of course when the Wasman thing came along,
01:32:32
>> his knowledge and and expertise was invaluable really. >> And the the Wasman deal, is that um is
01:32:38
that confidential knowledge? Is it public knowledge? >> Uh >> how how much it sold for?
01:32:43
>> Uh no, it's confidential. >> Yeah. >> Was it was it a good day for it to be
01:32:47
Craig and us? Uh yeah, I mean like you know we got partners of course at Esport so um but but yeah look it was it was I
01:32:54
I guess nice to um to to get rid of some risk. >> Yeah, I've had um numerous um like
01:33:02
successful founders and entrepreneurs on the show and they all say the same sort
01:33:05
of thing that it's like a a strange day and it's actually quite underwhelming um
01:33:09
the day you sell because it's like you you've come into some money or financial
01:33:13
reward but also like you've sold like a part of you like a limb in a way. Is
01:33:17
that a fair way to explain it? >> Yeah. And and and the thing I guess we underestimated was, you know, telling
01:33:22
staff, you know, um who who got really attached to the whole Esportif kind of brand, you know, and and it's like,
01:33:29
well, what do you mean, you know, we going to keep the name or um and so that was that was really interesting. and and
01:33:35
then having to kind of get out there and re- kind of you know reso and and um you
01:33:39
know get that was name out there cuz I mean you know it's a big big agency in
01:33:43
the states big agency in Europe but you know no one knows who the hell wasman are around here so um so that's a
01:33:50
challenge to really kind of grow it >> al so staff had sort of bought into like
01:33:53
the culture or the loyalty and >> yeah yeah we're on the move again but uh
01:33:58
yeah but you know at the end of the day like I said you know we're basically
01:34:01
doing the same stuff that you know that we've always And um and and and for me
01:34:06
personally, it's been great because it's been able to change my focus a little
01:34:10
bit. So I spent a lot of time concentrating in the international markets, but now you know being based
01:34:15
down in Hawks Bay and you know what a great kind of part of the world for talent down around there. Um it's
01:34:21
allowed me to kind of go out and and get my own kind of roster of of domestic clients. U which is I'm just loving. you
01:34:27
know, I've got this great group of young players who, you know, I think will come
01:34:30
through, you know, over the next few years and, you know, we'll be able to talk about a few of them, but uh but but
01:34:36
it's been good because, you know, you've obviously been there yourself through
01:34:39
the age group stuff and and then onto that next step and be able to pass that knowledge on. It's pretty cool.
01:34:44
>> Oh, is that how it kind of works? So, people don't um like look you up or call
01:34:48
you up, you've got to go out and sort of like try and find them young. >> Oh, bit of bit bit of both. Bit of both.
01:34:53
Yeah. Oh, >> so you got to go like talent spotting. Yeah. or or do people message you and
01:34:57
say, "Hey, hey, Posty, there's this kid here." >> Both. Both. Yeah.
01:35:00
>> What's the What's the youngest kid that you've had on your radar?
01:35:04
>> Well, I mean, it's it's um I mean, most of them are, you know, the youngest
01:35:08
would maybe be year 11, year 12, kind of around there. Most of them tend to be um
01:35:13
transitioning from that year 12 to year 13. Um and and to be honest, I mean that's for a lot of these guys, um
01:35:20
that's a pretty important period because you know, you've got the same you got
01:35:24
the franchise, you know, super rugby franchises, the NRL clubs, they're all kind of chasing around this small little
01:35:29
group of you know, of players. Um and so for parents and for the kids that are getting phone calls from NRL clubs,
01:35:36
getting, you know, I mean, having advice and having the right people kind of being able to coordinate that um is
01:35:42
pretty important. So that's when we start to get involved. Like when we first started, I never dreamt that we'd
01:35:47
be talking to kids at school. They all tended to be like 21, 22 year olds, but that's that's all changed. Um if we were
01:35:53
doing football, I mean, you'd be talking to a bloody 11 year olds, you know, it's
01:35:56
kind of crazy. So, thank God we're not at that point. But um but it's very
01:36:00
competitive, you know, and and the the the the thing is that, you know, the NRL clubs are in that pool. They they're
01:36:07
chasing the same kids that the franchises are. So, it's a pretty small group. So, um, so it's very competitive.
01:36:14
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. When you're dealing with, let's say, school kids or or their parents,
01:36:20
um, yeah. What's the sort of tone of the conversation? Like, are you managing
01:36:24
their expectations or are you are you telling them that it's potential pathway
01:36:28
for their son or daughter to make money as a professional athlete? A combination
01:36:32
of both. >> Um, it's it's a little bit of both. Um because you know the fact is that when
01:36:36
they're at school most of them aren't going to go through to being professional players even if they've
01:36:41
been the best team in their first 15 or you know I think you know the stats on um New Zealand schools players for
01:36:47
instance that team going through to you know super rugby it's about 20 odd% or
01:36:51
30% maybe max. So it's not high. Um so their focus is really like you know um
01:36:59
rather than working your education or your job around your rugby it's kind of
01:37:03
got the other way around to a to a large degree you know your education's got to
01:37:07
be number one first certainly in the first instance you know for those first few years if you're if you're a bloody
01:37:12
good footballer and you're going to play super rugby um by the time you get to
01:37:15
playing signing a super rugby contract um you get to that point forget about your schooling for a while yeah you're
01:37:22
going to be you know um it's it's full-on rugby. Um so those first couple
01:37:27
of years are really important to kind of you know just get that ground and get in
01:37:30
there, get stuck into into the schoolwork and make sure that um you know you're getting into a point where
01:37:36
you know after a while you can start picking up papers again and kind of work through it. But um but rugby takes over
01:37:42
for for a long period. >> Are there many kids that you spend like a lot of time with nurturing and
01:37:47
developing and you never see a scent? >> Oh yeah, heaps. Yeah, like a stack of
01:37:51
them. Yeah. >> Yep. Yep. And and that's a hard conversation with, you know, some of
01:37:55
these guys. It's like, mate, I think you need to concentrate on, you know, >> getting else getting into the work.
01:38:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. And because, you know, everyone's got a dream. >> Yeah.
01:38:04
>> You know, and it's a pretty hard thing to hear, but uh you're kind of doing
01:38:07
them a disservice if you if you're just kind of dragging them along and >> give them false hope.
01:38:11
>> Give them false hope. So, um, >> have you got better at those conversations?
01:38:15
>> Yeah, I think Well, yeah, it's just a conversation you got to have, you know?
01:38:18
It's just you're just not being fair if you if you, you know, if if you're not
01:38:21
having that conversation. M >> um and and it's it is it's it's a really
01:38:25
hard conversation to have and even for some of the older guys, you know, that might have been knocking on that door,
01:38:29
black door for a while and you know, there might be an opportunity overseas, whatever. It's like, you know, uh
01:38:34
sometimes it's the only opportunity they'll get. Sometimes you'll get the
01:38:38
well, you know, just kind of feel like I need to give it more of a crack here for
01:38:42
a while and chase that dream. And sometimes, you know, that that dream's not it's not it's not it's not reality,
01:38:48
you know. Um but you know at the end of the day um you don't want to encourage guys to go
01:38:55
off and do other things until they've satisfied themselves that um they're
01:39:01
ready to move on. >> What about success stories? Like is there anyone that springs to mind that
01:39:05
you spotted like at still at school age that has um gone through to have a phenomenal career? Uh well I mean
01:39:11
Drromes obviously won. Um Mos to um he was a favorite you know. Well, they they've all been favorites, but um but
01:39:19
Mo was great. you know, he um he he started I remember sitting in with Bruce s sitting in the lounge at his mom and
01:39:25
dad's you know uh selling them the dream and um and then Moss um you know played
01:39:31
for Oakland for a while and then up to North and and and then ended up down in Crusaders where he became a bit of a
01:39:36
legend down there and then we got him up to Japan and you know he was at Yamaha for for years and you know in the
01:39:43
meantime wife kids come along so and that's the cool thing you know these guys that start as kids basically. And
01:39:51
then you're seeing them kind of progress through their career and and and and
01:39:54
also the family kind of situation changing and and you know as the as the um as those priorities change, their
01:40:02
priorities change as far as you know the money becomes obviously becomes more important when uh you know there's
01:40:08
mortgages to pay and everything else. >> So um but but yeah, that's that's the
01:40:13
real rewarding part of it. >> And how how close is your relationship? like is is it a month or six weeks every
01:40:19
year where where it's um like intense negotiations or are you um sending them
01:40:24
a text before each game or you know a condolence message if they injure themselves?
01:40:28
>> Yeah, bit bit of everything really. Bit of all of that. Um you know obviously
01:40:32
when when there's contract negotiations are on it's pretty intense. Um you know
01:40:37
you don't want to be living in people's pockets either you know. Um but um but
01:40:42
yeah, look at different times of the year different things are going on and then you you know there's obviously more
01:40:46
contact and and when that's not happening if you know they play well to send him a text if things aren't going
01:40:51
very well how you going mate you okay you know rehabbing through injuries you know and that's one thing I I guess
01:40:57
having been a former player as a you know um of I'm able to kind of I guess you know have that understanding of you
01:41:05
see a guy on TV go down and he's holding his knee and you can just see seeing
01:41:09
their face. I just cuz they just know that, you know, for the next 6 months or a year or whatever, they're just sitting
01:41:15
on a bike or, you know, the team are out and you just don't feel like you're part
01:41:18
of the team, you know, so you you've got that empathy um and you understand what
01:41:22
they're going through, which I think kind of helps. >> Oh, 100%. What's um the one piece of
01:41:27
advice players typically never listen to until it's too late. Uh, I think timing as far as moving on can
01:41:37
can be a, you know, can be an issue sometimes. >> Oh, you can understand why though,
01:41:41
right? >> Oh, totally. >> Especially if it's all you know and >> Yeah.
01:41:44
>> You think um it was like this when I finished up with radio like the last
01:41:47
couple of years before I finished, I'd be looking up seek and stuff to see what
01:41:50
other jobs I could do and it's like I don't want to earn that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm I'm talking
01:41:55
also from you know from New Zealand to the that next stage in their careers or whatever. like it's just cuz it's all
01:42:00
timing, you know, you know, your your values up here and then you're kind of
01:42:04
down here and you know what I mean? It's it's your timing is really important. Uh
01:42:09
just getting all that right. So, um so I guess that's that's one thing. >> What is New Zealand rugby currently
01:42:15
doing right and what could we be doing better for players? >> Um I think it's a really interesting
01:42:21
time at the moment. Like I, you know, I I worried about the game to be honest, you know, here in New Zealand. Um and
01:42:26
and the game is a spectacle, you know. Um in terms of what? >> Well, yeah, you know, I mean, I I I
01:42:34
guess I get as frustrated as anyone watching a test match where after 5 minutes you got three or four players in
01:42:39
the bin and the TMOs bringing players back after, you know, like like a knock on that happened six phases and you
01:42:46
know, like all that kind of stuff I think is really messing with the game as a spectacle. You especially if I'm
01:42:51
comparing it to like NRL for instance. Um so I I think they really need to sort that out and as a as a spectacle um here
01:43:01
in you know as far as rugby here in New Zealand um what worries me I guess more than anything else is what I what I see
01:43:11
is the erosion of the what you know what's the fabric that's underpinned us
01:43:16
and made us different to everywhere else in the world. Um, and I'm talking about
01:43:20
things like, you know, um, age group rugby, for instance, and and not having, um, representative rugby up to a certain
01:43:28
age group. Um, you know, things like roller mules, which was so important, um, for us as kids, you know, just to
01:43:36
aspire to those kind of teams and just do anything to kind of make the grade, including losing weight and everything
01:43:42
like that. Um, but the age group stuff I think's, you know, I mean, there'll be
01:43:49
experts out there to tell you that's just the way it is, but I, you know, I just can't see how that's a good thing
01:43:54
>> to not give kids that that um that that really, you know, that competitive um
01:43:59
rugby and and and something to be aspiring to all the time. Um, so that that that really worries me. Um and you
01:44:07
know um just the state of I guess club rugby and you know it's a different society's changed and you know things
01:44:15
are different >> and um and a lot of stuff is probably out of everyone's control but
01:44:22
>> um you know when I see like New Zealand schools team getting cleaned up by the
01:44:26
Australians by 80 points for instance you know when I see like you know all black teams kind of you know getting
01:44:32
cleaned up um like the South Africans and you know stuff like that. >> Um there's something not right you know
01:44:40
uh and I think it comes back to high performance and um and you know I I guess you know
01:44:47
we've got a lot of really talented rugby players in there. I know that you know I
01:44:50
watch a lot of school boy rugby there's a lot of talent but I'm just wondering
01:44:53
if if we're letting them down with the pathway we're giving them and you know
01:44:57
to kind of get to that point. We haven't run a uh under 20s uh World Cup for a number of years now.
01:45:04
And it's you know there's it's it's not by um it's it's it's not by um mistake that
01:45:12
um the likes of England, France, South Africa, you know, have dominated that under 20s over the last few years and
01:45:19
other teams are doing really well at the moment, right? Um >> so so yeah, you know, I don't know. Um
01:45:26
we've got a lack of money in the country of course. Um you know I think New Zealand rugby is you know we've always
01:45:31
been hanging in there by the skin of our teeth just by the nature of you know um
01:45:36
where we are in the world as far as um you know it's we're we're a small island
01:45:42
in in the middle of nowhere. Um you know the South Africans going off to play uh
01:45:47
up in Europe. I mean that was always going to happen. you know, I mean, that's where the money is and that is uh
01:45:55
on the same timeline as as the UK, South Africa. It just made sense, but it's
01:45:59
it's I think it's done real damage to our game here. >> It's Yeah, funny just a little
01:46:04
observation. I think that's the longest answer you've given today and it's an
01:46:07
answer that's talking about the sport in general rather than about yourself.
01:46:10
>> Are you more is is this your passion? You just or you just more comfortable
01:46:13
talking about the broader game than than >> Well, I mean, like I was thought about
01:46:17
it before I kind of came in. I don't want to be negative Nancy, right? But but I but I I think you know I'm a
01:46:22
realist as well and um you know I mean some people follow the Yankees and other people follow Manchester. I mean the All
01:46:29
Blacks are my team and you know we're regardless whether you know was lucky enough to play for them or not you know
01:46:36
it's following this team has been a big part of my life >> and um you know you know um everything
01:46:44
about it about the All Blacks is um is is you know something that I've I've
01:46:50
enjoyed being a an All Black supporter. So to see I guess um this change you know I think there's there's a real
01:46:59
change that's gone on and how do we get it back on you know that's that's the
01:47:03
question. >> Yeah and and you're in a a unique position where you can comment on this
01:47:07
as as I've mentioned earlier I think there's been something like 1200 all
01:47:10
blacks in the history of New Zealand. So you're part of a very very small group
01:47:13
of people. Um, yeah, from what you're saying, it sounds like it's like a a
01:47:18
bigger problem rather than just like a a coaching specific problem or a current moment in time problem. But yeah, did
01:47:24
did your your paths ever cross with Razer as a player? >> Um, do you play against each other in
01:47:29
the tail end of your career? >> Tail end. Yeah. Yeah. Tail end. Yeah. Tail end it is. Yeah.
01:47:33
>> What What do you do is he the right guy for the job? >> Um, look, I um he he's there right and
01:47:39
um and I think I I'll support him 100%. you know, uh, he's got the job and, um,
01:47:45
and I think we'll see whether he's the man or not, you know, that's that's yet
01:47:48
to be seen. Um I I I think and this is kind of regurgitating old stuff, but the the way that um in Foster the way all
01:47:57
that kind of came about and the way that situation handled was I thought was disgraceful
01:48:02
>> and as far away from you know what it what it means to be like an all black
01:48:09
and in that you know that that whole all black kind of thing. >> Um you know I couldn't give a rat's ass
01:48:15
who was going to be the coach the following year where you know there was a world cup to go to. he was the coach.
01:48:20
Um, and I know that there were some, you know, there's some people who very close
01:48:26
to this to that team and had a big part of their success over the years that went to the board and told them they
01:48:31
couldn't do it and they did it >> and it was just, you know, um, I've
01:48:36
never wanted an all black team to win as much as that bloody World Cup final. >> A lot of people felt the same way.
01:48:42
>> Yeah. and team >> I mean that that Irish semi-final I think I've never been as proud
01:48:48
>> um of an all black team you know it was amazing and and then that final and it
01:48:53
from for me it just would have been like the greatest win ever you know just given the build up everything that that
01:48:59
had happened >> and I kind of knew that what had gone on would have galvanized that group like
01:49:04
nothing else you know oh my god I wish we had won that game oh that was um I remember going out that morning and
01:49:11
watching it was a really good game As far as finals go though, it's everything
01:49:14
you could. Is that the one where Sam Kane was sent off? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that was rough.
01:49:18
>> Um, you've got some um some hot takes, some strong opinions. Have you did you
01:49:22
ever like look at Yeah. coaching or or getting into administration like with the NZ AU?
01:49:28
>> No. >> No interest? >> No. No. I kind of dabbled a little bit
01:49:31
with coaching. Um just just, you know, bit of school, but it wasn't it was never going to be my thing. Um I don't
01:49:37
know if I got the patience for it, but um but no. What do you think um young Kiwis are better off starting in league
01:49:44
or union right now? >> Um well, that's a good question. Uh I I think there's skills that you that
01:49:50
develop in both games that um that that will, you know, uh that cross over for sure.
01:49:57
>> Um yeah, I don't know. I think rub rub your league kind of obviously gives you great
01:50:04
tackle technique and and and stuff like that. So maybe maybe that's a good way
01:50:08
to start. Um but but yeah, no there's there's some real crossover. I don't
01:50:13
think it really matters. >> Yeah. And when you're um dealing with young players now or up and cominging
01:50:17
players, how important are things like social media, personal brand um and offfield behavior.
01:50:23
>> Um well, it's becoming more and more important. You know, the whole social
01:50:27
media things, you know, like um >> does is that a good thing? Like if you're a young player and you've got say
01:50:31
20,000 followers on Instagram, does that sort of work in your favor or is that relevant?
01:50:36
>> I think it's how you handle it, you know. Um, and yeah, a lot of them use it
01:50:40
as just some kind of form of communication with their mates and and that's all good. Other guys are trying
01:50:45
to commercialize it and you know, if they're going down that track, well, it
01:50:48
needs to be done properly, you know. Uh, so we try to help them with, you know, some advice around all that, bringing
01:50:53
people in to kind of help them and get them going. Um, but I think as long as they're not getting too kind of caught
01:50:58
up in it is is kind of important to, especially in the in the in the early stages, you know. Um, and one thing that
01:51:04
we do know, this is such a small market here in New Zealand, you know, from a commercial kind of point of view. Um,
01:51:12
you we tell the guys, hey, um, you're going to make the most money being a decent rubby player, you know, rather
01:51:18
than an ambassador for, um, you know, some pet food or whatever, links or power aid or
01:51:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a nice it's a nice thing to have, but but at
01:51:26
the end of the day, um if you're if you're a decent rugby player, if you're
01:51:29
playing good footy, that's where you're going to make the majority of your
01:51:32
money. So, you know, try not to get too caught up in it all. >> Well, if you look at someone like Richie
01:51:36
McCoy, like I I think he only set up a Facebook after he retired. >> Yeah. Well, that's right.
01:51:41
>> Didn't need the distraction. I don't know why I'm asking you about that. I um
01:51:44
you're going through our DMs. I I sent you a message the day before I had Richie on the podcast saying, "Hey,
01:51:49
Posty, I've got your Ridgie coming on. you you you can you share anything about
01:51:53
him? I think you replied to me about 2 years later. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Um yeah, before we close on that
01:52:01
chapter about the the age and stuff, is there anything that we've overlooked?
01:52:04
Anything that I should have asked that I haven't? >> Uh no, I don't think so. No, I mean it's
01:52:09
like I really enjoy it and um you know, I don't think it's probably what people
01:52:13
expect it would be. Um at the end of the day, you're dealing with young guys and
01:52:18
and girls now. um and you know all the issues that that kind of brings and you know larger kind of extended family and
01:52:28
and all that kind of stuff and you know sometimes there's big drama and um but
01:52:32
but yeah look at the end of the day we're there to kind of guide them through as much as we can and and and
01:52:37
play a part um that uh that hopefully you know uh brings them to an end of career where they can look back and go
01:52:44
well I made the most of it. >> Yeah. without naming names, what's the um biggest sum of money that's been on
01:52:49
the table for one transaction? >> Um oh um yeah, I I think the you know rugy's
01:52:58
rugby is not NFL or you know NBA or anything like that. Uh >> no Stephen Adams is anything. It's like
01:53:07
wow. >> No. Yeah. Wasman Klein. Um but um you know I hey if if they're doing well then
01:53:15
might be a couple of couple of mil you know a year >> a season. >> Yeah. Wow.
01:53:20
>> So you're born in um New Plymouth 1969 summer of 69 just like the song. So
01:53:26
you're 56 now. How how do you feel about this chapter of your life? >> Um yeah pretty good. I'm um I'm living
01:53:32
down the Hawks Bay these days. Been down there for a while now. We built a house
01:53:35
about 3 years ago and uh so I spend the majority of my time down there and I'm
01:53:40
able to kind of do my work from down there. Um which is which is great. Um I'm a pretty keen fly fisherman so I get
01:53:48
down on the old Tukie Tuk River whenever I can and kind of try and haul a trout out of there now and again. Um so yeah,
01:53:54
no life's life's pretty good. Just kind of tracking along. Um, and look, no
01:53:59
plans to stop doing what I'm doing with with the, uh, with the WMAN stuff, you
01:54:03
know, still really enjoying that. Um, you want to help these younger guys, especially kind of, um, you know,
01:54:08
navigate their way through and, uh, so that's cool. Looking forward to kind of
01:54:12
just, yeah, carrying on with what we're doing really. >> What What is a perfect day for you these
01:54:16
days? Um probably uh well you know a lot of my stuff uh you know it might be uh you
01:54:26
know doing some of the the the domestic stuff early in the morning and then you know the Japanese stuff will kind of
01:54:31
kick in later in the afternoon get that stuff sorted out. Um and then late afternoon it might be shoot down to the
01:54:36
river and try and catch trout or uh take the dog for a walk or um you know maybe
01:54:41
even around a golf. So, um, yeah, trying to mix it up, you know. Um, life's Yeah,
01:54:47
life life's pretty good down there. >> Fantastic. Yeah, you got a new knee as
01:54:50
well. So, >> new knee. Yeah, it's a bad time to be a golf course in the Hawks Bay region.
01:54:55
>> Not quite, but we're heading there. >> What when you when you're out on the uh
01:54:59
Tokyo River trout fishing? Are you Are you Is it something you do solo like to clear your head or are you usually with
01:55:05
mates or >> Um, often by myself. Yeah. >> Yeah. And um but but I have got a you
01:55:11
know a couple of mates that are that are pretty keen on it as well. We you know go off now again. Um and a man of mine
01:55:17
got me into it after when I came to the end of my career. He was like well you need a hobby you know you need something
01:55:22
to do >> and I didn't realize that he was you kind of like a pretty keen fly fisherman
01:55:27
himself. I said always been kind of keen on you have a look at that fly fishing.
01:55:30
His eyes lit up and he said well pack your bags were off on Wednesday and and we ended up um tripping all over the
01:55:35
place. Uh we were down to Patagonia and fish down there and you know in Argentina and um and all over the place.
01:55:41
It's it's been fantastic actually. It's just a really nice kind of get away from
01:55:45
everything and uh you know just concentrate on um on on trying to catch a catch a fish. It's been a real um yeah
01:55:53
real find actually. It's it's great. >> Are you good? >> Uh oh. Not as good as a guy.
01:56:00
>> Oh yeah, I'm pretty good. I can uh I can usually find one somewhere.
01:56:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, one thing I like to ask um, most of
01:56:08
my guests about is their their mental health, especially like guys our age in our 50s. How's How's yours been?
01:56:14
>> Yeah, I think pretty good. Yeah, I think I'm Yeah, I think um Yeah, I know. I'm
01:56:18
I'm kind of happy with my lot. >> Um, yeah, kind of Yeah, there's I um
01:56:23
just kind of getting on with things really, you know. Um, >> yeah. Uh, I don't know what else to
01:56:30
really say. Yeah, things things are things are good and I'm I'm good. Um but
01:56:35
yeah, no one gets to the position of being in their their 50s without being kicked in the ass a couple of times.
01:56:39
What's the Yeah. biggest adversity you've gone through? >> Um oh well, you know, um parents passing
01:56:46
away, my mother passed away. Um that's that's going back about 15 16 way too
01:56:52
young. She was, you know, she was only 62, I think. >> Oh [ __ ] >> So that was that was obviously pretty
01:56:57
tough. Um and you know um I my kids were still pretty young. So, it's just that
01:57:02
sadness of knowing that she wasn't going to be there to kind of see them grow up
01:57:07
and um so yeah, uh you know, a couple of things like that. Um yeah, I mean, you get kicks in the ass along the way. It's
01:57:16
how you bounce out of them. I guess that's that's what counts. >> Yeah, it's true. I had a um a love
01:57:21
incredible woman sitting in the chair that you're seeing yesterday called Dr.
01:57:24
Alia Bojalova. She was a SAS psychologist here in New Zealand. >> Sure. It should be interesting. She
01:57:28
wrote a book called The Resilience Toolkit, and she talks about not um bouncing back, but bouncing forward from
01:57:33
these things. Okay. >> So, not just getting back to where you were, but like ending up in a better
01:57:37
position. >> Yeah. Nice. >> Um Yeah. Yeah. Like life throws [ __ ] your way and you just have to you have
01:57:43
to deal with it. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think so. And I mean, you know, I mean, it's a roller
01:57:47
coaster, isn't it? You know, you have good stuff and it same in this job that
01:57:50
we're doing. You know, there's good stuff and there's bad stuff, you know.
01:57:53
Are you good at the um vulnerability piece with your close mates or do you do you sort of process things internally on
01:57:59
the banks of the river or Yeah. Yeah. I'm probably pretty old school, I'd imagine. I think you'd
01:58:07
probably put me in that category. Um but I'm I'm the same. And I know it's I know
01:58:11
it's not not something to be proud of. Like I know I should be better at having
01:58:14
these tough conversations, but I'm I'm [ __ ] at it. It's hard. The time never
01:58:18
seems right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree. I've, you know, I've got good mates and um
01:58:24
yeah, I'm happy to kind of share stuff with with um with with most of them, I
01:58:29
guess. >> Um but a lot of the time it's kind of in joke kind of form or whatever, too. You
01:58:34
know, we kind of take the piss out of each other like guys do. And um but uh yeah, I I' I'd say to sum it up, I'm I'm
01:58:40
pretty old school when it comes to all that. Um yeah, you mentioned at the beginning um you've got a lunch um
01:58:47
tomorrow with um some of your old rugby teammates, but are you still in touch with um your band mates and the camel
01:58:52
toes? >> Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. >> So, this is a like a band with um Jeff
01:58:58
Ross, founder of 42 Below, Dion Nash, former New Zealand cricket captain. Who else is in the band?
01:59:03
>> Uh so, Nick Ross uh from the financial um industry. Uh he was the he's well the
01:59:11
lead singer. Uh and and luckily U Hamish G from the Fearless uh who Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So having having
01:59:18
Hamish kind of just helped to bring everything together. >> He's the drummer, right?
01:59:22
>> He was a drummer, but in our band he's he was bass, >> right?
01:59:26
>> Yeah. So So basically, >> what was your role in the band? >> I was a drummer, right?
01:59:29
>> I was a drummer. Yeah. So basically, you got a group >> if you playing drums in front of the
01:59:32
drummer from the feelers. >> Yeah. Yeah. But to to uh so we we we came up with this concept and then we
01:59:39
had this span and it was a bit of you know bit of we thought okay well let's
01:59:42
kind of take it kind of seriously. Should we do something? So so we we bought um we bought a uh was it wasn't
01:59:50
Hish but another musician in and we basically rope learned these two songs to play at a friend's 40th birthday.
01:59:57
And um so we we we played it this birthday after about 6 weeks of rope learning these two songs. I'd never
02:00:04
played I've never had a drum lesson in my life and these guys could only you
02:00:07
know can manage a few chords whatever but anyway we rope learned these two songs and it was a freaking disaster
02:00:14
like absolute disaster. We had this guy another friend we brought in as our manager. He reckoned it was like listen
02:00:20
to four or five BS all playing different different songs at the at the same time.
02:00:25
So that was we didn't get off to a good start, but we we kind of kept at it and
02:00:29
then um I I'll show you the footage at some stage, but uh Mike Chan had organized for a um 50 years since the
02:00:37
Beatles played at the Oakland Town Hall concert. >> Wow. >> And he asked um he said to uh to Jeff um
02:00:43
Jeff, you got a band you want to you know you guys want to play at this at this thing? You know, you get two songs
02:00:49
and uh Jeff's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, sure." So he came back and told us, "You
02:00:52
guys want to do were like, "No, he's crazy." But anyway, he kind of talked us
02:00:57
into it. So, we bought Hish in and we basically rope learned these two fetal songs, Hey Jude, I can't remember what
02:01:03
the other one was. And we were the opening act. And it was packed. It was a packed out Oakland Town Hall. And it is
02:01:11
the most terrifying thing I've ever done. It was It was I I thought kind of being the drummer I'd be at the back and
02:01:17
that would be it. But we got in there for a rehearsal and they the drums were up on this kind of on this platform up
02:01:23
there just looking straight down at the crowd. It was terrifying. Absolutely. But we got away with it. It was the
02:01:28
biggest fraud ever. It's amazing. It's funny that you say it's the most
02:01:32
terrified you've ever been. You know, I suppose it's what you know, you're
02:01:36
comfortable with what you know, but for most people like running out onto like Wembley in front of 100,000 people for a
02:01:41
contact sport would be, you know, way more terrifying than that. >> Oh, it was it was so we were so out of
02:01:46
our comfort zones. And the funny thing is like if you know if these guys those guys listen to this podcast they'll be
02:01:52
like what do you mean it was a fraud you know as far as we're awesome but um it
02:01:57
>> but I but I think you know with the rugby side of it um you know you're
02:02:01
nervous and then the whistle blows and you're just into another game of rugby
02:02:05
um >> this you know what you got to do. >> Yeah, this was completely different. It
02:02:09
was just like bloody you know what are we doing here? But uh we got away with it.
02:02:12
>> So is there a reunion on the cards at any time? Uh, no, no. We've we've um
02:02:17
we've we've been um we've been hiatus for for quite a while now and um I don't
02:02:23
think there's any I don't think we could reach those kind of heights again. So,
02:02:26
um we kind of s just sit back and um >> just uh live live with that memory.
02:02:32
>> And and you're you're a dad. You've got like two um adult uh daughters now. Um
02:02:38
so, not that I want to apply any pressure to anyone, but um I suppose like grandkids on the on the cards in
02:02:43
the future. Oh, in the future, I don't think anytime soon. Thank you very much.
02:02:47
But, uh, >> how old are the girls now? So, there's Toby and Dolly, >> eh?
02:02:51
>> Yep. Yep. So, Gab Gabriel's should be 24 next next year. Um, Toby's just turned
02:02:56
23. >> Yeah. >> Um, so, um, yeah. No, they're great. Yeah, they're doing great. Cuz one thing
02:03:03
I one thing I remember, I was thinking about this on my run this morning. I don't know if you'll remember this at
02:03:06
all, but um I don't think you were even at home, but I was around having a meeting with your with your wife and the
02:03:11
girls were there. They would have been maybe primary school age. And there was like a like a playhouse or a doll's
02:03:16
house or sleepout sort of thing at the back of the house. And they took the girls took me in there to show me
02:03:20
something. There was like a like a I don't know like a like a a statement of
02:03:24
intent or a letter or something on the wall from you. >> All right. >> Can you remember what they It was
02:03:28
something like um yeah, be true to yourself. Don't forget where you came from or
02:03:32
>> Yeah. >> or something like that. Did you do you does this ring any bells? Do you know
02:03:35
what I'm talking about? Uh >> it was I remember reading it at the time
02:03:39
and it's stuck with me for like 15 years or however many years it's been. It was
02:03:43
like a really wonderful um note whatever it was. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Car.
02:03:49
>> Yeah. It was good girls. >> Um and you seem to you seem to have a
02:03:54
good relationship with them. I was just like going through your social media for
02:03:56
this. Um it seems like your love language with with them is light roasting. >> Yeah. There's um I've got one here. Uh
02:04:04
um there's Yeah. a joke with your older daughter on Instagram about her um never
02:04:10
picking up wet towels and having unauthorized tattoos >> and uh for Toby. Don't ever stop being
02:04:15
you. Except for the bikini Instagram photos, you can stop doing them. >> It's really cool. It's a wonderful
02:04:21
relationship. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, they're um they're great. Um and they're off doing their
02:04:27
thing, which is which is cool at the end of the day. That's that's what you want.
02:04:29
You want them to be happy and and off doing their thing. And um and they are. >> Yeah. You proud of them?
02:04:34
>> Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Absolutely. >> They proud of you. >> I hope so. Yeah, I think they are. Yeah,
02:04:40
I think they are. And um you know, now and again someone will kind of like, oh, remember your dad or whatever and they
02:04:45
they think that's pretty cool. >> Um so yeah. Yeah, I think they are. >> Oh yeah, there was another one. It was
02:04:52
like you trout fishing and one of your daughters with you and you made a joke about her just using you for a photo
02:04:56
shoot or something. >> Yeah, that's Toby. Yeah, she's missed social media.
02:05:00
>> Yeah. Yeah, she is. Yeah, her social media game's a lot better than you was
02:05:04
to be. Yeah, much bigger. Yeah. >> Um, what are you still working on as a man?
02:05:10
>> Um, that's a that's a big question. >> Yeah. And with some deep ones.
02:05:14
>> Yeah. Bloody hell. Um, oh, look, I I I I I think you never you never stop
02:05:20
learning, right? And um, you know, I'm just trying to be um, you know, a good
02:05:24
father and and uh, and a good husband and um, and a good friend, you know. I think they're they're all the most
02:05:31
important things >> you you can be, you know. Um, like I said, you know, I'm pretty happy with uh
02:05:37
where things are at, you know, and and and what I've done and and, you know,
02:05:41
but it's not the end of the road. there's plenty plenty out there to to try and you know try and achieve and and
02:05:47
uh and I think you know one thing with this whole wasman even though you know we don't own the company anymore you
02:05:53
still want it to be a success and you still want to be out there competing and you know um and so that doesn't leave
02:05:58
you so yeah look just just continuing to to you know to do things and do them well.
02:06:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I love that. I I would have um I would have thought I'd be
02:06:07
retired by now. Like, you know, in my 20s or 30s, like 50 was sort of the goal age. Now I'm 52. It's like I Yeah. I I I
02:06:15
don't want to want to want a job that I want to retire from. I want to keep doing something. You need that reason to
02:06:21
get out of bed. >> Oh, I think as you get older, you know, you realize you just got to keep, you
02:06:25
know, it's important to kind of just keep moving. Yeah. And and that's, you
02:06:29
know, your body and your mind. And >> um you know, my my father-in-law, he's a
02:06:34
great example. Well, you know, he he turned 81 uh not that long ago and and he still plays tennis on Fridays with
02:06:40
his mates and he still gets out and plays cricket and sorry, not cricket, tennis, and you know, he's just been to
02:06:46
Australia to um to an old cricketing, you know, lunchon with a group of old mates and and and you know, I think
02:06:54
that's awesome. You know, once you stop doing all that kind of stuff, you're in
02:06:57
trouble, I reckon. >> Yeah. Is is it actually tennis or is he is it pickle ball?
02:07:01
>> Uh no, no, no, he's tennis. us. That's good going. >> Yeah. I I don't think it'd be the most
02:07:06
attractive game to watch. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if there's a lot of movement, but uh you
02:07:13
know, he's out there doing it, though, and that's that's important. >> Have you found um as you get into this
02:07:18
chapter of your life, you've got more emotional? >> Um I'm probably projecting here. Like I
02:07:24
you know, I went through my 20s, 30s, even most of my 40s without crying. And I don't know, just the last like decade
02:07:30
or so. >> Um I'll cry at anything at the top of the hat. Usually happy tears.
02:07:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, look, I I I think there's, you know, there's
02:07:37
obviously things that set you off, you know. Um Gabriel, she's up in London,
02:07:42
you know, she she she comes home like she goes back. It's, you know, that will
02:07:47
set me off. Um you know, and it's funny like thinking about mom or something
02:07:52
like that. You know, there's things that kind of I guess set you off, but um but
02:07:56
yeah, not that often, I guess. >> Oh, it's good. It shows you care, right?
02:08:00
>> It shows what they mean to you. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. >> Yeah. Like the fact you lost your mom 15
02:08:04
years ago and you can still think about her and it sets you off. I think that's
02:08:07
just the the you know, the impact of the relationship. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally.
02:08:11
>> Um do you have any regrets? >> Um no, I don't. you know, I I um I was
02:08:17
thinking about that, you know, before he came in because I thought there'd probably be a question and and um uh
02:08:21
because everything I've done has le led me to where I am today. Um if anything
02:08:26
had been different, well, you know, I wouldn't be doing sitting here with you
02:08:31
now. I wouldn't be, you know, um wouldn't have flown up from the Hawks Bay. I mean, it's amazing where life
02:08:37
takes you really. Only not in a million years do I ever think that I'd be living
02:08:41
in bloody rural Hawks Bay. Um uh but but there we go. And and it's the decisions
02:08:48
I guess I made early on that were tough decisions like you know whether to to leave New Zealand rugby and go play
02:08:54
rugby league. Um those kind of decisions set me up for where where we are today which is you know I'm pretty grateful
02:09:00
for really and I'm I'm kind of proud of myself for making those decisions at
02:09:04
quite an early age. >> Yeah. So how did you end up in a horse bay? I uh I met well my my wife now um I
02:09:10
guess we're going back about 11 12 years ago and uh she was from down in Havlock
02:09:16
living in Havlock um couple of kids at school down there and and uh but a lot of her work up in Oakland and uh so we
02:09:23
we got together and and so I started kind of back and forth with her down there and discovered that I that I love
02:09:29
the place and um yeah we uh we bought a bit of land just outside of Havlock a few years ago. built a house, got
02:09:35
married, I think about four years ago now, and uh yeah, amazing. >> She she's awesome. Um yeah, Belinda, she
02:09:42
used to be a a journalist on TV3. I'm pretty sure she was at my first wedding.
02:09:47
>> Her and her not you, though, another bloke. >> Yeah. Well, that's right. It's, you
02:09:52
know, um yeah, second time around for us for us both. And um but yeah, look, amazing. and and um so you know with
02:09:59
that um a couple of um a couple of uh stepdaughters uh Molly and Grace who are awesome kids and uh lucky for me they've
02:10:07
got great parents so I get to be um you know like a a really good friend and um and are a couple of my best friends uh
02:10:14
and uh so yeah really really really lucky and although you know surrounding myself with uh a lot of females with I
02:10:22
was going to say like massive female energy so there there's um your two adult daughters from your first marriage
02:10:27
and now now another two um in this blended scenario. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um yeah. Awesome though. E lucky lucky
02:10:34
man. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's cool and and you know, they're all doing well and
02:10:38
uh um yeah, you know, really looking forward to seeing what you know what how how they all kind of go over the next
02:10:43
few years and and what's what's in front of them. But uh yeah, you know, it's
02:10:47
it's it's great living down there and um you know, back and forth to to walk
02:10:52
still a fair bit and uh and and and you know, uh Belinda stuff kind of works in with what I'm doing. So, so you know, we
02:10:59
get to travel a fair bit together and no, it's great. >> Would you say you've been lucky in love
02:11:04
or unlucky in in love? >> Um well, well, I got to say lucky, I guess. Um, you know, I mean, uh, going
02:11:12
through separations and things, you know, people have been in that. I've >> been there, bro. Yeah. So, I mean, it's
02:11:18
not a fun time as people have been in that, uh, situation. Um, know, but, you know, I guess on the other side of that
02:11:25
is you don't know what's down the track and, um, lucky enough for me, I I found
02:11:29
my best mate and, um, and we're doing great. >> Fantastic. You seem really happy.
02:11:34
>> Yeah. No, for sure. >> And the, um, the two younger kids, what do they call you? Just Craig.
02:11:40
>> Yeah, Craig. Craigy. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Yeah, just depending. But um
02:11:46
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just I'm just Craig or Craigy. Yeah. >> Yeah. Sh. Is it Is it still customary
02:11:51
for um the dad to pay for daughter's weddings? >> Bloody well. Better be.
02:11:58
>> You've got an expensive couple of decades coming up potentially. >> I know that. But uh but yeah, at least
02:12:03
I'll have a decent seat anyway. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everything's worked out
02:12:06
pretty good. And I wonder if it's um if it's you made the right decisions or
02:12:11
so far so good. Late 50s. Um yeah, I wonder if it's a case of you making the
02:12:16
right decisions or just making the decision and then just working your ass off to make sure they were the right
02:12:20
decisions. >> Yeah, I think so. I think there's definitely a big element of that, you
02:12:24
know, and like I'm a big believer of, you know, um ideas manifesting as as well, you know, and and um
02:12:32
>> Yeah, you are. >> Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you know I look back at um like the all the
02:12:38
rugby stuff like the All Blacks for instance and and this might sound arrogant because you know I was never
02:12:44
like a great All black or anything like that but I always kind of in my mind I always kind of knew I was going to be an
02:12:49
all um I just had this thing in my >> selfbelief. >> Yeah. In a funny way because I I don't
02:12:56
think I project that. Um, and I' I'd hate to think I, you know, I'd like to
02:13:02
think I'm a pretty humble kind of guy, but there was always this kind of belief
02:13:04
that this is this is what you're going to do. Um, and I think that made my other decisions quite easy, you know,
02:13:10
kind of having done that going, okay, well, I've done that and then I'm going
02:13:13
to go off and do something else. So, um, so no, definitely I think I think um, you know, positive thought man manifests
02:13:20
positive outcomes for sure. >> What are you most afraid of? Um, oh gee, I don't know. Um,
02:13:31
I guess lo losing losing things, you know, losing it all. And I'm not talking about, you know, I
02:13:42
mean, life life throws up all sorts of [ __ ] doesn't it? So, um, you know, this
02:13:49
if I can bet bat all that bad stuff away as long as I can, you know, >> not losing everything like the mate you
02:13:54
talked about earlier at the casino. >> Wow. Who knows? But >> yeah, >> but yeah. Um,
02:14:00
what three words would you like family and friends to describe you? Say it's
02:14:06
your funeral and uh you're in the box, your daughters are there. What three words would you like them to say about
02:14:12
you? Um, oh, I'd like to, you know, think that, you know, I'd like to think
02:14:17
that I'd be seen as, you know, reasonably kind of humble kind of guy and and um pretty, you know, pretty
02:14:23
downed, you know, pretty straightforward with things. You know, I'm kind of I'm a
02:14:27
realist, I think, kind of pragmatic about a lot of things. Um, you know, family's everything to me. Um, and
02:14:36
friends are, you know, really important and, uh, and just being a good person. I
02:14:40
think at the end of the day, um, if if people kind of, you know, think that I've, you know, he was a good bugger,
02:14:46
well, I'm happy with that. At the end of the day, what else is there really?
02:14:50
>> Yeah, you know, >> it's everything, eh? >> Yeah, >> that's way more than three, but I think
02:14:54
that's a great collection of words. >> Yeah. Oh, sorry about that. >> Yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's that's
02:14:59
great. And, um, I think you definitely tick all those boxes like that that note I'm talking about before that was in the
02:15:04
Yeah. The girls playhouse at home. Um, that definitely sums it up, I think. >> Yeah. I wish I had a clearer memory of
02:15:11
exactly what it said. >> It just I just remember I'd never seen anything like that before and I thought
02:15:15
it was just a really cool thing and I wondered if it came from one of your one of your team environments or something
02:15:20
like that. But it was it was really really cool. >> Yeah. Particularly that your daughters
02:15:24
every time they went into this play area this play space they had they'd see this
02:15:27
you know message from their dad. >> Yeah. So like an instruction manual for
02:15:31
life. >> This has been a great chat. >> Yeah. Well thanks mate. It's nice being
02:15:35
here. Yeah. Kind of reminiscing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How was the reminiscing piece for you?
02:15:41
>> Uh yeah, I mean like it's it's it's fun to kind of kind of go over old old
02:15:46
experiences, I guess, you know, and uh um yeah, and and and most of it's been
02:15:52
pretty positive, you know, having been I've been lucky, I guess, in in that respect. Um I I guess um I've been lucky
02:16:01
to be in extraordinary um positions, you know, throughout my life. Um, and I'm, you know, really
02:16:09
thankful for that to, uh, to experience all sorts of, you know, different things. Um, which is, which is, you
02:16:16
know, for me pretty cool. >> Can't think of a better place to end it. Posty Craig, thank you so much, mate.
02:16:24
Been nice being here. >> Yeah. Cheers.