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first. Grant Fox, welcome to my podcast. Nice to be here, Dom. Mate, it's an honor to
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have you. I've done so much um researched. I tracked down this book from a secondhand bookshop in in Vicagle
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of all places. That's from a dump bin in the bookshop, right? The game, the gold,
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the grant fox. When was the last time you saw your book? H I can't remember.
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There is I've got one at home, but that was um published in 1992. M and I I found this book as well on my bookcase
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at home. Uh Martin Crow Raw, your good friend, and you wrote the forward to that book. So I've researched um I've
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researched hard. This is going to be a great chat. First of all, um where do you think your place is in New Zealand
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Rugby? Like do you see yourself as one of the goats? No. And I don't I don't
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see a place um that's for other people to judge, not for me. Um, you know, I
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was lucky enough to be able to play a game I loved and represent my country at it and have have a long career, had a
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lot of fun, you achieved a lot. Um, and that's still part of my history. I can't, you know, you can't rub that out.
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And that's, you know, it's a nice part of history to to fall back on and
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remember. Um, but other people will judge where where I sit. Um, and that, you know, and if you talk to all the
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other players, I think they'll be exactly the same. They don't really care
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about that. It's just it's a fascinating game other people want to play. um in
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the media ranking and all that sort of stuff. Um I'm not interested in in that
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sort of stuff. You know, other people can have their judgments for me. Um privilege um helped me get where I am
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today. Um but it's just that's just part of my life story cuz I I know you're
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from what I've um researched. I know you're a bit of a technopobe, which is
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so am I. I'm I call myself a boomer. I'm not a boomer, but I've got big boomer
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energy. But um you must be familiar with some aspects of AI and chat GPT. I've
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heard of chat GPT. Um, and I've only ever used it once and I didn't use it.
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Um, my CEO in Australia asked me to write a bio for a new group of investors and I don't have a bio, right? So, I'm
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just that's not happening. So, I got him a colleague at work to go to chat GPT to
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research and when I read I thought hell I was bloody good, wasn't I? It was so full of bloody nonsense. But
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to be fair, I used it and cut and pasted it because it was a because I just I'm
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not I'm not worried about that stuff. But this guy, he was insisting I did it.
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So I used the technology. Only time I've used it will never use it again. But it
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was an interesting exercise to go through and go, "Okay, where they where do they get that from and as I said, it
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painted me a lot better than I ever was." So anytime you need an ego booster. Yeah, I know. Go to chat GBT.
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So, I typed into chat GPT um you know who is the greatest uh all black number 10 of all time and um uh it came up with
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an answer. It said this is a highly debated topic among New Zealand rugby fans, but most discussions typically
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include these standouts and um I've got five names here. Who do you think who do
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you think they would be? Uh Daniel. Mhm. Uh Andrew. Yes. Um God, are you going to
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test my memory here? Um, uh, I'm trying to think you played for a long time and it So, give me a hint.
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Predates how era. Okay, I'll tell you what. You're you're on the list. You're
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on the top five. Okay. So, I'm missing You're the oldest on the list. Yeah. Am
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I? I'm the oldest on the list. Okay. So, it's more recent. So, you got Mertz,
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Carter, yourself. Yeah. All right. I don't I'm not I haven't I haven't been
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in the rugby scene for a while, so I'm trying to And my memor is failing. I'm
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trying to remember. You have to help me. Okay. Bod, of course, and Richie Manga.
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Oh, of course. Okay. Yeah. Okay. What What do you think of that list? It's a
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privilege to be on that list. Um, but it's hard to judge the modern day player
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against guys who've in the past because, you know, what about some of our greats
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in the past? Um, you know, Douggee Bruce, Wayne Smith, um, didn't play as many tests as a guy play plays nowadays
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and probably in many ways a whole lot less media noise around it, not social media, a whole lot of different things.
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So uh and with the the game the game the skill set involved in the game now hasn't changed since the game was
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amended. You know kick run pass tackle in no particular order that's the game
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and how you how you how you you know how you get accumulate your points tries and
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penalties and conversions drop goals nothing's changed but the structure of the game has changed and these guys play
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a lot of testing you know they're playing 13 14 15 tests a year now um you know when I start when I finished I
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think we got to 10 um but before that it was um maybe six or seven. Yeah. Um, and
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in the older days, some years there wouldn't be an all black team playing test matches, so it's very hard to make
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comparisons. You mentioned um Wayne Smith in that in that in that breath just before um Sir
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Wayne Smith, the man known as the professor. Um I read a story in part of my research. Did he clean your boots for
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you once or offer to clean your Yep, he did. That's true. Um so Fiji 1984 was my
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first tour. So end of the domestic season, I got picked for a short tour to Fiji. Um Smithy was the incumbent 10 and
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and I was the new guy picked. Um and on my first game um he was not in we weren't rooming. Oh, we may have been
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rooming together. I can't quite remember but he might have been. He just came
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down and offered to clean my boots. Um and that wasn't an uncommon thing for
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players to do to help the new person. So an incumbent senior experienced person would come along and help induct the new
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guy and just give them every every little bit of assistance they could. That's the all black way of doing
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things. So So he he was like higher than you on the line. Of course he was. cuz he was the incumbent. So he was
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absolutely I was the new boy my first tour and there there wasn't an official
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test. There was a test against Fiji but not not recorded as an official test match. Um but I always clean my own
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boots. I had a routine, right? So I always wash my laces the night before, took them out, wash them all, you know,
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hung them to dry. Um I on match day morning, I' i'd use Nugget Nugget, not
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the liquid, the proper one. And I' I'd wash and clean my boots and you know,
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because the boots we practice in were the boots we played in in those days. um because it's was just comfortable to do
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that. Um so I was I so I declined smoking only because it was part of my routine and I I'd always done that. I
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find that a fascinating story because I suppose I always have this perception of
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almost um under the 2025 lens it probably could be called sort of like bullying or the hierarchy seniority
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thing in the back. Yeah, there is still I mean when when look when I they will still have a backseat of the bus, right?
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and and and um so there is I mean look it's it's a more um uh historical
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hierarchical structure but um it's not the way I mean it would have been tougher in the old days compared to the
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lens we look at things nowadays right but there will still be the senior guys down the back of the bus and when you
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you're in the orats long enough and luckily I was I graduated eventually at the end of my career to the back seat
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which was a was a great privilege but the backseat of the bus really was we traveled a lot on buses in those days
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they didn't do it so much nowadays Um, but it was really an in-house disciplinary thing that was just dealt
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with things that were more to do with, you know, if a guy had transgressed uh, you know, an expected set of behaviors
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perhaps off the field, you answered to the back seat. I mean if it was really serious it got to management but we
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tried to do a lot of this stuff because that's about peer group peer group pressure because the judgment of your
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peers is pretty harsh and you know there was a a certain um there was a brutality
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is the wrong word but we we were brutally honest with each other and that that related to anything to do with how
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how the all blacks conducted themselves which lent itself into how we played. Um
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and so the backseat had an important function but it wasn't above anything else. It was just part of um it was just
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part of the culture in those days. It still is, but it probably may not perform the quite the same function, but
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to some degree a little bit cuz I um Christian Cullen on the podcast last year and he talked about how he made the
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All Blacks and a lot of the senior guys like wouldn't talk to him and then he
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played his first test and I think he's got three tries and then he thought, "Oh, maybe they'll talk to me now." He
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was still a bit like sort of standoffish. He's like, "What do I have to do to prove myself?" But the fact
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that you were talking about Smithy like offering to clean your boots, it's it
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says a lot. Yeah. But that but that was the way it was, you know. I mean, I can remember as a senior player when Simon
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Mannis came away to France in 1990 as he was young. He's about 18 or 19 Max was.
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And it was, you know, I'd always remember what Smithy um had, how he had behaved towards me. So that was, you
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know, my job with sign. But you als you also don't want to be overbearing. You
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got to be really careful that you don't try and model them to you. they've got
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to be their own authentic self. Um, but it was just sort of part of, you know, of the All Black way of doing things.
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So, um, and I would say that's been going on since the All Black started. I don't think this is anything new,
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man. I'm so excited to have you here. There's so much to talk about. Um, yeah,
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I mean, you you're just a man that's seen and done at all when it comes to
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rugby. Do do you have any memorabilia at home? Like, have you got a pork room, a
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games room? I have a games room, but there's um there's a few photographs up
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on it that we've collected over the years that um a lot of them would say montages of the all black 87 team that
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people did and that was commercial stuff, but as part of that negotiation that Robin did, all the players got one.
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I've got one from Oakland in the Oakland Ran Fully Shield era. Um and some other
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um you know, other bits and pieces. Um I've got I've got jerseys of every team
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I played against. Um I'm not allowed to put them up. Maybe one day, but I've
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I've still got them. They're tucked away. Not allowed. No, no. my wife didn't well they they'd fill up a fair
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bit of a wall but um I tell you what though there's one particular cuz I'm
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not sure anyone else um would have the set because some of these teams don't
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exist anymore but I have a set of uh of New Zealand representative jerseys that go New Zealand school boys um New
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Zealand Colts New Zealand juniors um New Zealand universities and the New Zealand
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All Blacks. Um not sure I'm not sure the varsity team plays anymore. Um, we have
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an under 20's team, so we don't have an under 21 and under 23 team, which was
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Colts and juniors. So, that's a particular set I'm I'm immensely proud
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of. What does life look like these days for Grant Fox? Um, I am still working. Um, I run a business called Monster
00:10:24
Vision. Won't go into the detail, but it's um we're deeply involved in in in
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sport in this country. Um, you know, a little bit of community um you know, council work, concert work. Um, and you
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know, I'm a father and grandfather um with um, you know, apart from Ryan who's
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probably more, you know, more widely known. We have a a younger we have a daughter who's younger than Ryan who
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lives just down the road from us with three littleies. It's just a great joy.
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So that's, you know, life and I try and be at home on the weekends, work Monday
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to Friday. Um, not too hard and um, try and get a game of golf in if I can. And you go, I play off about five now, I
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think. But I haven't played in ages cuz I had a I've had um I got a niggly knee
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and I've just had carpal tunnel surgery. So I'm falling apart and I've just heard
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a rotator cuff. So yeah, life's age catching up, Dom. Um and I I'm very keen
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to get back cuz I enjoy golf for the social aspect and the competitive to be honest because a handicap system allows
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you to play against people with different abilities and you can have a game cuz golf's unique like that. I
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don't know any other game where I can play against someone who's way better or
00:11:25
way worse and at the end of it we could be all square based on the handicap system. So it's who's really buying the
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beers at the end of the day we play for. So yeah, it it is fair but you still know deep down you're getting your ass
00:11:35
kicked by a better player. Oh yeah. Yeah. But but the golfers understand the golfers understand how many shots have I
00:11:42
got on this cuz always how how many have I given you today? You I've got to make
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six up before on the next guy. And so you you consciously know what's going on
00:11:50
because the competitive instinct doesn't leave you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you still
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because I I had your son Ryan on the podcast a couple of years ago and we we talked about you and your relationship
00:12:00
with him in quite great detail and he told a story about the first time that he beat you in golf and and he said you
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didn't talk to him for like a couple of days afterwards. Yeah, I can't remember
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exactly. It happened. There's no doubt it happened and it probably when he was
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about 15 and it would have been the last time I got near him. Um, and look, I I I
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still have a competitive uh fire, but it's dullled with age, right? Because I', it's a reality is, and particularly
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when it comes to golf, um, or any other, you know, be it tennis or thing, which I
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don't play nowadays, got a bugged wrist, but um, it's just um, I can't hit the
00:12:33
ball as far, so I can't be as competitive, right? And you just got to come to a realization that I can't do
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what I used to do, except the aging process. the handicap system will take care of that because it'll keep going
00:12:43
out and I can still have a game against him. You know what? If I play with him now, which is very rare, I mean, he's
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going to give me at least 10 shots. Maybe probably No, I wish it was nine, I might beat him, but um no, but but you
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know, he's got to play off about a plus eight and you know, he'll give me five
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or six shots. So, what is that 13 or 14? So, yeah, it's surreal really from a a
00:13:04
Kiwi perspective. like you I mean you're too close to it to probably see this but
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you know one of the great All Blacks of all time has a son and the son's now
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like in the top 100 or top 50 or whatever of world golf rankings like it's it's crazy. So his entire life he
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was probably played with the I don't know if stigma is the word of being Grant Fox's son and now you're Ryan
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Fox's dad. It's quite something quite poetic about it. Well I mean that's nice
00:13:27
of you to say. I mean I I I mean I stopped playing rugby when Ryan was six, right? I was 31 which is young to retire
00:13:32
but I was run it was amid days. I was running a business and had a young family and I wanted to be there when
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Ryan started. Um because I think you know um one of the most important things being a parent is showing up, right? You
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got to I mean how do you spell love to your kids? T I M E. And um so someone said that to me a long long time ago. My
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parents um you know did that with us growing up on a farm. They were always took us to sport all the time engaged in
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coaching our teams you know. Um, Adele's parents were the same with, you know,
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um, with with, um, Adele and her brother Greg. So, um, I understand that mindset
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and I think it's critically important. So, for me, retiring for a number of reasons, but family was was a critical
00:14:12
one to spend time and all you wanted Ry Ryan probably he he didn't know at that
00:14:17
time. It wasn't until later on when he started playing at a higher level like
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first 15 rugby or first 11 cricket that there was perhaps a link um that they said well this is you know this is
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bloody Grant Fox's boy now I'm his dad so that that's completely flipped on its
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head which I I like because it means he's carved carved his own career but all he did was just you know he chased a
00:14:39
dream you know that's all he did and he was lucky that um you know at the end of
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the day he's achieved that dream because not everyone gets to do it but I think
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setting yourself a goal and striving to achieve something's really important.
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Um, and you know, he he's been able to do it on a pretty big stage, which is,
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you know, which I'm I'm so pleased for him because I know cuz having played
00:14:57
sport in elite level myself, I know the work involved, you know, and all the pressures associated. And Ryan's been
00:15:02
able to deal with all of that um, and still get to the point he's got to um,
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you know, rewarding for him and his family, but also, you know, for Adele and I. M are there when you watch him
00:15:12
play like on on TV or in in real life like are there um parts of you that you can see in him like if he the way he
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acts after he's had a bad shot or mannerisms and things like that? Oh look I I can see more of I mean Ry Ryan and I
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think in temperament is more like Adele than me outwardly. I think inwardly he's
00:15:32
more like me. He's just pretty more he's he's better at hiding it than I am. Um,
00:15:37
so I know deep down he has a fierce competitive desire. Um, you know, he wants he wants to do well. Um, doesn't
00:15:45
always happen. Um, I think he's um, and look, he at times he struggled to deal
00:15:52
with what I'd call frustration from not getting out of it what he wants, which
00:15:56
is not matching the work he's put in. Been there, done that, understand that.
00:16:00
Not easy. Um, you know, that's just that is a hard thing to work your way through. But, you know, I I think um you
00:16:07
my wife was um a good tennis player. Um you know, grew up in a sporty family. Um
00:16:12
played hockey at school. Um so, Adele understands the sporting environment, having a dad away a lot. Um a dad
00:16:20
involved. Um so, you know, there's a blend of everything in there that I can
00:16:24
see in Ryan. Yeah. Um should we go back to the early years? Yep. Okay. So, you're from um a farm in Tatanaki. uh
00:16:33
born in New Plymouth but but left when when I was two to um um a Wetto just outside of Pataradoo. Yeah. Out of Patu.
00:16:43
So a little place called Tiotu which was Tiotu was um a school in a garage. That's all it was. Wow. Oh like a tiny
00:16:50
rural school. A tiny rural school and a garage. That's all it was. So there wasn't even the first 15. Not enough
00:16:55
kids. No. No. So there wasn't even a local school there as such that we all went. There was four primary schools in
00:17:01
PU at the time and I went to one of those schools and and um this is where you you built some like makeshift my
00:17:08
father did. Yeah. So I mean I think that came out of um well my father played rugby um you know for um Okado where in
00:17:16
the Tanaki and also for Taro Athletic when we moved to Peteru and you know he was a South Wata rep so I was sort of
00:17:21
what you call a minor minor union rep. He was a fullback goal kicker in the old torpedo life flat style kick with your
00:17:27
toe. Um, so you know, we'd been around a rugby environment, you know, as little
00:17:32
club rooms after games, all that sort of stuff. So we were very familiar with, you know, that's what you did in rural
00:17:36
communities. That's how you how people put at the tennis club up the road, the
00:17:39
cricket club. My mother played net ball. So that was all just part of, you know,
00:17:44
the upbringing. Um, but I love kicking a rubby ball. Always was fascinated by that. Although we had a soccer ball, I'd
00:17:51
kick it around. And I used to build um and put on the front lawn two battens and a bit of 31 a little goalpost and
00:17:57
that's what I'd practice kicking when I was very young. Um but I think probably
00:18:01
some as I got older and maybe too many broken windows. The old man decided that he'd get a couple of big 18t panelized
00:18:07
bloody posts. Um it might have been taller than that with a with a um uh a galvanized bloody pipe crossbar. Put it
00:18:14
in the front paddic. Well, there you go. You won't broke won't break any windows
00:18:17
down here and I had a lot more room. So that so he built those. And they were put in the front paddic. Parallels with
00:18:23
you and Dan Carter in that, eh? They had a paddic out the front with a goal post
00:18:26
in and Yeah. Yeah. was kicking until dark. Were you one of three three two younger brothers? Yeah. [ __ ] And Yeah.
00:18:34
Because um me and my brother, we used to we lived in a residential house in Palmer North. We played cricket on the
00:18:38
driveway all the time. Glass used to be so thin. We used to always have a smashed window in the house. Yeah. No
00:18:44
double glazing either. Not in those days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I like I used to really enjoy playing
00:18:49
tennis. played cricket as well, but we had a big we had a brick house. One of the walls on the on the as the concrete
00:18:54
driveway came around to where the garage was a big concrete area. One of the walls was no windows completely brick.
00:19:00
So that was that was my bloody, you know, my back wall buddy hidden. I think used to drive cuz the kitchen was in
00:19:05
behind that. I used to drive my mother mad. She was trying to cook in the kitchen. I'm pounding this bloody tennis
00:19:09
ball with a tennis rack or a pad of tennis bat. But, you know, we just grew up in that environment, you know. Um um
00:19:14
sport was always a big part of of of you know, what our family did. So your parents just send you outside and play
00:19:21
until it's dark and then you come in for dinner time. Yeah. I mean we had 300
00:19:24
acres to run around on too. So you know we had motorbikes and Land Rovers and you know so and at a very young age we
00:19:29
were you know we were we were taught to drive machinery. Um you know I can remember my younger brother and I we got
00:19:37
to a stage and I was still at primary school but I include the intermediate years cuz that's what it was in those
00:19:42
days. I mean we put a whole paddic of hay in by ourselves. mowed it, turned it, bailed it, had some help picking it
00:19:49
up. But he let, you know, a 12-year-old and a and an 11 year old go and do that because we would that's what, you know,
00:19:55
God farm kids, farm and kids and occupational self safety and health might have a problem with that nowadays,
00:20:02
you know, I was driving a Land Rover at seven. I mean, that's just what we did
00:20:05
in those days. And I was lucky enough with, you know, the upbringing was, you know, um, teach and give responsibility
00:20:11
and let you make mistakes. Don't women cuddle you and say don't do that, don't
00:20:15
do that. You actually had to learn by making your own mistakes. Long as it wasn't going to injure yourself too much
00:20:20
or injure something else or break too many things or crash Land Rovers or whatever. That's the that's the
00:20:25
environment we were brought up in. Some sometimes an injury is a good lesson. Yes. So So when when you were a kid in
00:20:32
um in the the Wetto Paddock kicking the ball, who were you who were you pretending to be? Strange. Well, so when
00:20:38
I when I before the goalpost came up, um Brian Williams was my idol, which didn't
00:20:43
didn't marry me match with me, I should say, because, you know, small little
00:20:47
skinny white kid and Beg this big big big big thigh Polyn. Yeah. Yeah. Who was, you know, a number
00:20:55
of years older than me, but I just remember watching him in 1970 and, you know, on the TV plant in South Africa
00:21:01
just resonated. So, um, BG was, you know, BG was my hero. And so, you know, um, um, black pants and a black rugby
00:21:08
jersey that that, you know, we had at home and got one of my mother's sheets
00:21:11
and cut it up and asked her to put a number, whatever number BG was at the time. It varied a little bit, but 13 was
00:21:16
one I seem to remember. And so, that's you you'd run around, I'd get two of the
00:21:20
neighbors kids over. So, we play two on two in the front paddic in the pouring rain and mud everywhere. Um but but from
00:21:26
a goal kicking point of view, the real thing that resonated with me was Barry John from the 71 Lions because I was at
00:21:33
a very young age, you know, trying to tow hack in bare feet, which wasn't good
00:21:36
for a young kid in the cold white cattle winters. Um and I saw this guy kicking very well using his instep round the
00:21:43
corner and my first thought was that that won't hurt my hurt my toes. So that's when I adopted it and and um
00:21:49
because my father was a goal kicker, there was some encouragement there. Um, and as I said, I just, you know, I just
00:21:54
like I like kicking a rabial. It didn't have to be just goal kicking, but that's
00:21:58
where the sort of my first memories of round the corner. Um, like, okay, that'll work. Um, and then just, you
00:22:06
know, kept working hard from there. And by the time you got to secondary school age, were you were you really really
00:22:11
good? Is that why you were sent to Oakland Grammar or? No, no, not not the reason sent to grammar at all. I mean,
00:22:15
I'd played um um in in subun stuff and also the the roll of Mills, which sadly
00:22:20
doesn't exist anymore. I played for white cattle rangers. Um so selected that was sort of the first taste of you
00:22:26
know representative football though it was gi form too in those days. Um but the local high school was Petarian Wayne
00:22:32
Smith had been there um a guy called Benny Savage was there too. He was another 58 who was in the first 58 in
00:22:37
the first New Zealand schools team in 1978. Benny Savage was a was the first 5'8. So um it was just an interesting
00:22:44
bit of um history that um Smithy, Benny, Benny unfortunately didn't go on but you
00:22:49
know out of came these three guys who played you know 5'8 reasonably well um but my
00:22:55
parents just believed in education so um I don't know the story properly but John
00:22:59
Graham was a headmaster um you know one of Bob's older brother Jim lived in Lichfield which was close by and my
00:23:06
parents knew them so maybe there was some contact there. I'm summising here cuz I actually haven't ever discussed
00:23:10
the story but got accepted into grand grammar that my parents applied and I went to Tib's house as a border and um
00:23:17
just part of the way you immerse yourself in a school of what was 1,200 in those days when I arrived as a farm
00:23:23
kid I knew one person that's all I mean I was just I I was lonely uh out of my
00:23:29
depth um hated it um I remember going home for the first holiday at Easter that year so this is 1976 and I got
00:23:38
home. Um, so on the Gibson Motors bus, get out of the railway station, get on the bus, go down to Para, get picked up,
00:23:43
get taken home. I went and got on the motorbike and drove to the top of the hill where the wool shed was and just
00:23:47
listen to the silence and bulled my eyes out cuz I did not want to go back at all. But, you know, that wasn't an
00:23:53
option and um, obviously it was the right decision. Um, what was it just like homesickness? Yeah, because I was I
00:24:00
was a farm kid. Got brought up in a little community. So, you go into an environment where you know there was 60
00:24:06
I think there was 60 borders in those. I didn't know any of them, so I had to get
00:24:09
to know them. You know, there's a little bit of Tom Brown School Days to some
00:24:12
degree. Minor stuff compared to what you'd read in the book, but it was still
00:24:15
a little Oh, just Yeah. a little bit of bullying in that as you know, if you read Tom Brown School Days, remember
00:24:20
what that was like? Um, it was a story about that. And so, there was a little bit of that hierarchical, you know, turd
00:24:27
former. Yeah. Turd formers and all that sort of stuff. So, not not overtly bad, but a bit foreign. Um, so your boarding
00:24:34
school was I was talking to my brother-in-law about this the other day. He went to St. pans silver stream in in
00:24:38
the 90s and uh he's a he's a sleep talker. He got caned once for for talking after lights out. Yeah. I mean
00:24:44
Yeah. I mean we had corporal punishment in those days. I got caned once at school cuz I asked for it instead of
00:24:49
detention so I could go to rugby practice. Um it hurt too. Um so but but you know that choice and was all about
00:24:56
education. The sport thing wasn't part of my parents um thought process. I'm
00:25:00
pretty sure about that. But also, you know, though great believers in leadership like I am and you know, Sir
00:25:05
John Graham was a headmaster, revered, great leader. Um, you know, Grammar had a great reputation. That was that was
00:25:11
the place to go. Yeah, you had some great role models there. Um, Sir Graham Henry, he was your coach for a time
00:25:17
there. Um, my old recctor from Palmer Boys High. Yeah, Simsy was there. So, Simsy coached the first 11 I played in.
00:25:23
Yeah. Mark Greatbatch, he was in Yeah, Patty was a year behind me. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I played first 11 cricket with
00:25:29
him, too. Yep. Incredible. God, he's one of my favorite fielders. This seems like
00:25:33
a lame thing to say, but I loved watching him feel. Oh, yeah. No, he could play bi. Yeah. Yeah. And he's
00:25:37
competitive, too. Like he, you know, I'm pretty sure he played a year of first
00:25:41
team rugby. I think the year I was in the my last year he might have played second 15 rugby. He was, as I said, a
00:25:46
year behind. He was a fiercely competitive man, too. Yeah. And and Martin Cro, you you guys were when did
00:25:51
you guys meet? Beginning of 1976, right? Beginning of the school year. Um, two guys who didn't know each other sit sat
00:25:57
on a pew in the assembly hall and got talking. and we just had a um we just found a
00:26:04
common bond. Um I'm going to get emotional talking about him because I always do. Um but um we just developed a
00:26:10
great friendship and but it was a friendship based on a more of a mutual interest in in sport. Um you know he was
00:26:17
obviously known as a cricketer but he was talented at so many other sports and I was the guy that was eventually going
00:26:23
to forge you know a career as a rugby player. Um, so it just developed a great friendship that didn't that didn't last
00:26:30
long enough because sadly he died at age 53. Yeah. You you've you've done very few
00:26:36
podcasts, but um you I've heard whenever um the late Martin Craig gets born up,
00:26:40
you do get emotional. Have you have you always been an emotional guy? You find this is happening with age? Um more with
00:26:45
age, I think. You know, some sometimes it doesn't doesn't take much to see,
00:26:50
what am I got? What have I got to tear for? you know, or I'm talking about something and all a sudden just catch me
00:26:54
like it does with Marty. It something just it just catches me. I don't it doesn't feel like it's there and then
00:27:00
something just triggered and catches me. So, I'm probably a bit more emotional
00:27:03
than um I give, you know, I'd like to think I'm I'm relatively level, but I
00:27:08
just get caught occasionally and Marty's one who catches it just catches me all
00:27:11
the time. I I I think it's I'm probably projecting here, but like when from my perspective
00:27:17
when I die, like my my biggest fear would probably be there's there's the
00:27:20
FOMO thing of what you're going to miss out on, but also you don't want to be
00:27:22
forgotten. And so the fact that you reflect on this friend of yours and you get emotional like a decade or whatever
00:27:28
it is after his death. Um speaks a lot about him and the and what he meant to you, which I think is so cool. Yeah.
00:27:36
Yeah. I mean, he was um a very special man. um very talented man, a very um emotional man who works hard on his
00:27:42
sleeve and at times it got him in trouble too, you know, and the world we live in nowadays, it's like you you say
00:27:47
one thing that is authentic and think that someone will take it the wrong way and the way the whole media thing works
00:27:52
nowadays, it doesn't take much for much of a pile on. And I think sometimes people get remembered more fondly and
00:27:59
and more for their greatness when when they're not here. And that's the sad
00:28:03
thing because it took Marty to pass in some ways for people to really understand his greatness. I think he was
00:28:09
given enough credit but not quite enough. It wasn't until he was what here here and you could reflect. Um I mean I
00:28:16
remember a few things. I won't be longwinded here but um you know it's a
00:28:21
long podcast. You can be as long as at Marty's funeral service you know um and
00:28:28
well planned out in advance because he knew it was going to happen. So you know his favorite color was orange. So the
00:28:32
coffin was orange and all of this sort of stuff. But um when you we first arrived and sat in there playing on a
00:28:38
screen was his his hundred at Lords his last 100 in test match rugby which happened to Lords and that's when his
00:28:44
knee was gam um and Lords was hallowed turf for him just the majesty of this man batting is just was amazing.
00:28:54
And um Jeff his brother stood up and started capping. the whole service stood and started clapping cuz this man was a
00:29:03
genius. Um, and one other, you know, we were brash school boys and when we finished school we had a little bet and
00:29:09
I think that's documented um about who who would play the most test matches for
00:29:14
their country and their chosen sport. So, they're just brash, arrogant school
00:29:17
boys. Um, you know, Marty won that battle um obviously cuz he he played 76 tests I think and I played um 46 or
00:29:26
thereabouts. You've probably got the number. I won't have the number exactly
00:29:28
right, but um but when Marty um retired and he he was putting a book out um um I
00:29:36
took a a signed all black jersey, my jersey to him cuz that was sort of like well you won buddy and he returned um a
00:29:44
pencil drawing of Lords that says to Foxy we both won. Pretty special. Where is that? In the games room on the
00:29:54
wall. Well, you made the New Zealand Hall of Fame in 99 and he was two years behind
00:30:01
you. So, that's a win for Foxy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we both won, as you said. We
00:30:05
both won. Were you um Yeah. As as school boys, you seem like very different personality types as in that you you
00:30:12
know, you you were kind of stoic. He was more sort of like vulnerable, heart on your sleeve type of person. Did you you
00:30:19
you clash or as school boys? No. No, we didn't. Um look, I stated um his place a
00:30:23
lot. You know, we we got each term there, three term years, we got three three weekends out. Most of those
00:30:30
weekends I'd go to his place or another another good friend called David Maroy.
00:30:34
And you know, we Marty and I always was involved in something. We used to play cricket um with dice using and score
00:30:41
through cuz it just Marty Marty had a game that you threw numbers and how you get wickets and how you score fours and
00:30:46
sixes. We would play this. That's how we we did with dice, two dice and do it or
00:30:52
we'd play cricket in the hallway with a little miniature bat and a and a squash
00:30:56
ball so we didn't break anything. And we were always up to something like that.
00:31:00
Um you know at school together we we entered the the the tennis champs at school, the doubles champs, the juniors
00:31:07
and the seniors and you know made the finals of both of them um you know in our sort of fourth form year and our
00:31:13
seventh form year. So that was just we were fiercely competitive and that's how
00:31:16
talented he was. um you know to the to the point I mean I still remember this really vividly um
00:31:23
and I played was lucky enough to play one term in the first 11 while Marty was still it's the first time I was seventh
00:31:28
form year um and I had throwdowns with Marty um every Friday became a ritual get to the nets have throwdowns so three
00:31:36
weekends in a row when we did this little ritual one day he got 140 odd um and then the next week got five
00:31:45
wickets and then the following Saturday got 240 odd like this this was the genius of this man and and I had a I had
00:31:51
a front row seat um just so talented um you know then we played a bit of golf in
00:31:57
the se form together and stuff like that so we just you know we we we we hung out
00:32:02
together I went to his first time he played for um I think he was playing for Oakland
00:32:08
and my memory fails me a bit here big one day game when the West Indies were here it actually could have been New
00:32:12
Zealand I'm not sure um and sadly that day he got duck cuz I was just getting
00:32:17
into my seat and I missed it. But I didn't Yeah, that all happens. The best of us um don't always get what we want.
00:32:25
But yeah, so I mean there's lot I'm getting a bit I'm rambling a bit now,
00:32:28
but there are just so many good memories. The saddest one of all for me is a bit at the end because you know we
00:32:33
talked about playing a lot more golf together. Um drinking red wine together, just socializing, you know, and he had
00:32:39
found real he'd found his his soulmate in Lraine. They just didn't get enough
00:32:43
time together. Um very very sad. um where where you know Marty is um as I said he was emotional and you
00:32:50
know at times is a bit of a tormented soul but that was his also if you people who are geniuses often have these sort
00:32:57
of characteristics I reckon and that's just Marty was and just when he found
00:33:01
some real peace and happiness he gets cancer and doesn't doesn't live long
00:33:06
enough it's not fair I I feel like he was sort of a man before his time you know like he he was sort of
00:33:11
misunderstood by the New Zealand public there's even a chapter the book that you
00:33:14
wrote the forward too raw, which I flicked through the other day. Like there's a chapter in there where he even
00:33:18
addresses um like rumors or innuendo about him being like gay, which is so perfect. It was like the you know, yeah,
00:33:27
that's because because he and Jeff had a manager who was gay, right? So people
00:33:30
draw a long bow here. I mean, I know he wasn't gay. So um and to be honest, it
00:33:35
wouldn't have mattered if he was. Who cares? Yeah. Um that's what he says in
00:33:38
the book. Yeah. Who cares? No one else's business. Um but that's where that line.
00:33:42
But that was you know that I mean it's just I guess to some point as time passes and you know different parts of
00:33:52
society evolve and develop or whatever and sometimes not for the better you know and if I look at the media nowadays
00:33:58
in terms of how things are done there's a lot more opinion stuff and a lot more
00:34:01
platforms than there is actually hard fact and when in the old days didn't have any choice because technology
00:34:07
didn't allow all this stuff so you had to deal more or less in in hard facts
00:34:11
and opinion was less part of But I guess there was less competition in those days compared to what there is
00:34:16
now too. So I mean it is what it is. But we've also tal just got to take things
00:34:20
with a grain of salt because just because there's something in the media does it mean it's true? No it doesn't. I
00:34:26
think that's what the level of mistrust in mainstream media has never been higher than what it is now you know
00:34:31
people you read something and you're like is this true or not? Yeah. And and
00:34:35
I'm you know I don't I don't to be honest consume a lot of mainstream
00:34:38
media. I don't consume a lot of media nowadays cuz at times it can just make
00:34:42
you you read it and go oh god really. So you better just I got better things to do than get worked up about that sort of
00:34:47
stuff. So best to avoid it. Yeah. A couple couple more on um your your friend Martin Craig before we move on.
00:34:53
So um that that bet you made in the the final year of school. Were you both sort
00:34:58
of like hot ticket guys at that at that point as in were you both on the radar for like national I mean I played for
00:35:04
New Zealand schools that year. and I'm not sure I don't think they had a New Zealand schools cricket team. They
00:35:09
may have, but it was just very clear about Marty's talent. He was already playing for Aland as a school boy. You
00:35:15
know, he got picked straight, you know, pretty quickly out of school for um for New Zealand. So, it his his talent was
00:35:22
obvious, right? It was he was always destined to get to where, you know, he got to. And I mean, in a funny way, were
00:35:28
you as well? Not necessarily. You went a I don't reckon I was. I mean, I I was um
00:35:34
I was driven like Marty. Um I think it was clear Marty always had an X factor of talent. I don't re I had an X act of
00:35:40
talent. I had a good hand eye coordination and um perhaps you know a reasonable brain from a tactical point
00:35:47
of view. But you know I wasn't a very big kid. I had to work hard and I was happy to work hard. um and you know got
00:35:52
lucky enough to be associated with Graeme Henry at school and then for university um initially and then you
00:35:59
know John Hartz led me for Aland and I won't won't litigate the rest of it but
00:36:03
um you know lucky to play you know be coached by him at at a young age um but also playing good teams you know you're
00:36:11
more likely to get promoted if you're playing in good teams that that win and
00:36:14
win championships it's just it's just easier and I'm not saying it should be
00:36:19
that way it's just a fact of life so you you get noticed a little bit more, get a
00:36:22
bit more bit get a bit more coverage and therefore come to you know the people's
00:36:26
attention a little bit more. Um nowadays there's a lot more technology around
00:36:30
this. So you you've possibly got a better chance cuz the coaches can dive into all a whole and all this all the
00:36:37
analytics now that we didn't have when I was playing. VHS was how they did it.
00:36:41
Yeah. And um you just about and chopped Martin's finger off when I did. I did
00:36:46
know about this. I did. Yeah. No, we were my my parents would were in Kiwi fruit by this stage of many kiwi for a
00:36:53
long time at school and I used to go down and spend the summers down there. Um and Marty I remember Marty came down
00:36:59
for a a few days with us. Um and we were working on the orchard printing shelter
00:37:03
belts with a and I was on the chainsaw standing on the back deck of of our ute and you know Marty was sort of pointing
00:37:09
out this one is saying which oh [ __ ] took a chunk took a chunk out of his finger. Um, you know, just the blade did
00:37:18
not a little not not a lot of damage. It just took a leak nick out of it. Very lucky. But yeah, very lucky. But then I
00:37:25
reckon after that he could swing the ball more because his finger was a bit deformed. You did him a favor. I did him
00:37:29
a favor. Can you remember the last conversation you had? Um, when you do the forward to his book, Raw, you talk
00:37:35
about how you'd had some like long phone conversations. So, he was still around
00:37:38
then. Yeah. For hours at a time. Yeah. The last one. No, I don't. I mean my memory doesn't work very well like that
00:37:44
to be honest but I do remember you know um um just time I mean I have one vivid memory of an afternoon spent at his
00:37:53
place when Keith Quinn was there um cuz he was a good friend of Keith Quinn as you know the rugby commentator lovely
00:38:00
man Quinny um and we just you know um I don't know we just sat in the backyard
00:38:04
and we drunk red wine and we ate and we laughed and you know um I was one of the lucky ones
00:38:11
that was sort of included um and you know as Marty was getting ill to be able to you know just um ring up mate you
00:38:20
okay can I come and see you um cuz it you know he to it was hard to let everyone in you know it was going to be
00:38:28
impossible cuz there was just so many so for his own well-being he had to restrict that and so as a guy called
00:38:34
Dave Morris who was the head boy um in 1980 and Marty was the deputy head boy they were very close as as I was close
00:38:41
to to Marty and and Dave and I have we still connect Dave and I quite a lot. Um so we were a couple of the lucky ones
00:38:47
who Marty led in and it was a it was as sad as it was it was a privilege you know to go through that journey with him
00:38:54
and I still remember exactly where I was when Dave rung me and said he's gone
00:39:00
you know it's like he'd gone in for resppite and I just thought okay it's
00:39:03
resppite care um and into into hospice. I just thought it was respite care cuz that's what I was told. But clearly it
00:39:11
was more than that. I hadn't thought anything of it. Just he's Lraine needs a
00:39:15
break. And it wasn't it. That was that was the end. Yeah. It's it's unfair. And I Well,
00:39:26
life's not fair. We know that. Life's not fair. But, you know, that was the
00:39:30
that was the card he was dealt sadly. And um can't change it. And as you get
00:39:36
older, it sort of just crystallizes the fact that, you know, we've all here for
00:39:39
a limited time. I mean, you had you've had this thing recently and Doc Mayhew.
00:39:43
Yeah, I know. Just sort of crystallizes that just how precious. Yeah. And you also know when you get to my stage of
00:39:49
life, they like we laugh that we're all getting in sniper rally now, but we go
00:39:53
to far more far more funerals and weddings. So, it's just a sign. Look, at the end of the day, um, you know, we
00:40:00
don't consider 70 or even 80 that old nowadays, you know, and once upon a time
00:40:04
it was like, oh, that's not bad. We don't consider it nowadays at all. And
00:40:07
again, um, I heard a saying relatively recently that getting old's a privilege.
00:40:11
You know, we moan and groan about falling apart and I'm feel like I'm falling apart at the moment, but but
00:40:15
getting old's a privilege because not everyone gets to do it. 100%. So, you know, as much as you might have some
00:40:20
ailments and, you know, things that are niggling and annoying you, wow, you know, I'm we're still here. It's better
00:40:26
than the alternative. Better than the alternative. Yeah. Hey, um, thanks for sharing that stuff about Martin. Yeah.
00:40:33
Great New Zealander. Like you look at T20 now. He was kind of like the cricket max. Yeah. Invented a thing called
00:40:38
Cricket Max. That was I thought it was a bit wacky at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And and but he, you know, he was working at
00:40:41
Sky and he got Sky TV to back and my again I don't know all the detail, but I
00:40:46
he was a pioneer of things in many ways and I reckon he was the guy and I'm going to credit him with him regardless
00:40:52
that that he's he pioneered what eventually became T20. M through cricket max he was innovative you know he cared
00:40:58
so deeply but he wanted this game to evolve and grow and become more appealing and you know he I guess he
00:41:04
understood that well test match cricket's the pinnacle you know at the end of the day trying to engage an
00:41:09
audience you know when you can go five days and not get not get a result is not easy so how do we you know and how do we
00:41:15
package something up that works in three hours for broadcast that people can consume for three hours and make it
00:41:21
exciting and you know bring some other innovative things into it. So, hello. Here's Cricket Max.
00:41:28
Can we go back to your All Black career? Yep. Yeah. Okay. So, do you remember the
00:41:31
moment you became an all black? Yep. I remember the moment the team was announced. Yeah. Did you have like a
00:41:36
probables possibles trial? No. No. Not Not for Fiji. No. No. That was just picked at the end of the NPC
00:41:44
um in 1984. Right. So, you were playing for the the mighty Oakland team. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was 1982. So, we'd won
00:41:50
the championship that year, but the NPC had started in its current form um or as
00:41:55
a proper NPC championship in 1976. Oakland hadn't despite being the biggest population hadn't won it. So, you know,
00:42:01
John Hart became coach in 1982. Uh you know, we won that. Sorry, I became 1984. Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. Um I
00:42:09
So, um 82, we played well and won it. 83 um you know, we hadn't won it. Um 84 we
00:42:15
won it again. I'm pretty sure of that. again my memory but Aland had yeah we
00:42:20
had because we had had a good season we'd been pretty pretty dominant um you
00:42:24
know on the back of that I'd had a pretty good year the jungle drums were beating that you know I was likely to
00:42:28
get picked alongside Wayne Smith um I have a feeling Ian Dunn who was the guy who was with the um the some of these
00:42:35
understudying 83 lines was injured so that that opened a bit of a door um I can't remember exactly but I think that
00:42:41
was the case um and they just you don't get didn't get a phone call you just
00:42:46
just heard it on the Yeah. So, I was gathered around the radio. I think it was at 2 I'm pretty sure it was 2:00 on
00:42:50
a Sunday afternoon. I was with a D at a mom and dad's house and their name was
00:42:54
read out. [ __ ] What's that moment like? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's surreal. It's I mean, it's
00:43:01
what you know, it was the it was the boyhood dream you strive towards. You don't towards you don't you don't really
00:43:06
know. The jungle drums were beating. So, you you sit there with a certain amount
00:43:10
of, you know, confidence, I guess, that yep, on the back of what's happened. um
00:43:16
you know um there's a there's a reasonable chance but there also a chance you won't. So just because there
00:43:21
there is a degree of confident doesn't mean you're not sitting there with your
00:43:24
belly bloody churning cuz mine was. the nerves would would jingle and so um and so it was you know I mean great um
00:43:31
euphoria but also a great sense of relief but the journey about to start the relief bits go finally made it but
00:43:37
you haven't made it it's only you just started another journey you know so um
00:43:41
and I you know clearly for me I didn't want to be picked and have one tour and
00:43:44
stop I wanted to you know even though I hadn't been in the team it's you know
00:43:48
with its history you want to be part of it so I just wanted this to you know this is the start of something I want to
00:43:53
last for a while and how intimidating is that so the the position you're in number 10, you're sort of like um
00:43:59
controlling the flow of the game in a way. Um yet you're you know you're the
00:44:04
new kid on the block by these senior players. How [ __ ] intimidating is that? Um I well I see I don't look at it
00:44:11
like like that. I mean that was just part of my job. I got picked um um because um I was deemed to be um you
00:44:18
know good enough by the selectors um part of my job and with with Oakland I ran the cutter. I you know I dealt the
00:44:24
cards. So that's and it's still to this day traditionally number 10 does that.
00:44:29
So that hasn't it's probably always been the same. So that was just part of what
00:44:33
my role was and so I was I was used to it not intimidated by it at all. Yes, it was going to be up a level from what
00:44:39
would been and it was going to be you know um faster, more physical um you know more demanding mentally because it
00:44:46
was going to be harder to plot your way around a little bit. But again you just dial into what the team's trying to
00:44:50
achieve. get into the game plan, you know, use a bit of intuition, understanding, you know, the pictures
00:44:55
you're painting and what back what what we call a backfield looks like. Um, and
00:45:00
so I didn't I don't think it was daunting. I I I thought it was a great challenge, but not not daunted by it.
00:45:05
Not that I can recall anyway. Oh, a lot of the team members were probably your Oakland teammates anyway, right? Uh,
00:45:10
yeah, not so many days, but a few. Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot in the 87 World Cup team. Again, a lot of guys, but no,
00:45:16
there was a few. But but you know the other guys we played against so we knew them anyway you know and look it's funny
00:45:21
how you're fierce competitors when you play against each other proincially like
00:45:24
you wanna you want to win and sometimes with the bigger boys it gets a little bit more you know they getting very
00:45:30
physical against each other but the all the all blacks brings you together so all of those things are you know if
00:45:35
there's been an incident that one guy's clocked you um and at the time you're
00:45:39
annoyed when you go the all black you just laugh about that so um you know we just it just bring you just come
00:45:44
together and the um The first game you played for was that was that in Argentina and no first test was in
00:45:50
Argentina. First test was in Argentina. First game in Fiji in ' 84. First game
00:45:54
in Fiji in ' 84. Yeah. What what's that like putting the jersey on? You used to
00:45:58
been um really anxious pregame, right? Like Yeah. I got nervous, right? Because nervous means you're ready in my view.
00:46:04
if you if there wasn't anything going on from a um the nervous system um a nervous system wasn't I mean I think at
00:46:12
times depending on form nervous the nervous system can create doubt but if you're in form it creates excitement
00:46:17
because if you don't get it you're not ready so that's how I always judged if I
00:46:20
wasn't sitting in the bus you know or in the dressing room before with a couple
00:46:24
of dry reaches I thought well am I ready for this or not now I learned that over
00:46:27
time um because preparation is the key to success so you know if you've done
00:46:31
your work yeah you okay I'm ready whatever they're going to throw at me.
00:46:35
Um, what what we're trying to achieve, you know, I'm ready for that and I know
00:46:38
my mates are too. Did the the premature vomiting stop after I didn't vomit. I
00:46:43
didn't vomit. No, not really. I mean, it was I mean, dry reach and look, it wasn't a permanent like it would just be
00:46:49
a couple of times where the nerves would just get a little bit and so I'd have to
00:46:52
go and it was a dry reach, right? And it would just like one big like a big yawn
00:46:57
and done, right? So, vomiting, no, didn't never get to that. And it wasn't
00:47:01
every game, right? Um, you know, some games it's you can't you can't be the
00:47:06
top of the mountain all the time. You're going to fluctuate a little bit. It's
00:47:08
just you cannot you mentally just can't do it. The best sports people in the
00:47:12
world don't win every time they play cuz sometimes they're just not where they'd
00:47:16
like to be. And you can't peak every time. I mean, realistically, I reckon you can peak about 10% of the time you
00:47:22
play. You can be at maximum, you know, maximum level. Um, so some games more than others got you depending on I guess
00:47:30
the magnitude of the game and and how you prepared for that. Um, but dry reaching wasn't uncommon for me.
00:47:39
Yeah, it was completely different um time then mid 80s to what it is now like in the team there were there were cops,
00:47:43
farmers, truck drivers. Um, yeah. What did what did an average week look like? Week of a test. Well, we were together
00:47:50
we we were together in the test, right? So the week of a test was different than
00:47:53
playing for pro provincial rugby. But provincial rugby was um train Tuesday night, Thursday night um play Saturday
00:48:00
and for the most part we were probably in a hotel on the Friday night um and if you're traveling you are together so but
00:48:07
you travel on a Friday um fly hotel play um you know come home Sunday um um and you know we had our own training
00:48:15
programs during the week that were so our own resource but hook touching and um touching with guys like Jim Blair
00:48:20
making sure that on the Monday or the Sunday our recovery you know Monday and Wednesday, you know what? Our own
00:48:27
programs, especially designated programs, because we weren't together as a team. For an all black, you assembled
00:48:32
you. In the old days, they used to assemble on a at earliest a Wednesday, but sometimes Thursday to play. By the
00:48:37
time I got to the All Blacks, it was more like a Monday. But and so it was it was like being together professionally
00:48:43
because we weren't at work. This was our job for the week even though we weren't
00:48:46
we weren't paid for it. So the the all black all black weeks test weeks changed
00:48:51
a bit because of you know the team wasn't together very often spend much time together so you needed a few days
00:48:56
it's still the all blacks still nowadays get the least amount of prep time of any
00:48:59
of the teams that play the super rugby teams get the best run at this on terms of preseason leading in the NPC teams
00:49:06
get more than the all blacks but but not as much as super rugby team the all blacks get the least of all you know
00:49:11
they go into a big test match and you've effectively you're lucky if you got a
00:49:14
week right so it's it's and you know so that's That's sometimes the bit that's
00:49:18
forgotten when the expectation of the All Blacks. And by the way, I don't want
00:49:21
this to change, but you've often got you spend the less time together of any of
00:49:25
the teams you play with, play for. Did you Were you guys doing weights back then? Not gym at all. No, not until Jim
00:49:32
Blair came along, right? Um um and you know, weights was a small part of what I I did. not not an awful lot, but more of
00:49:40
it um was about plyometric work on boxes and hopping and jumping, you know, um to
00:49:45
to get explosiveness in um um but in the early days just running roads. We just ran roads. That's what we did. And at
00:49:52
training, they'd try and throw a few henny mullers in and you know what we'd
00:49:56
call down and ups, you know, little short sprints and go down, do a press up, turn around, come. So very primitive
00:50:01
stuff in those days that we didn't know any better, right? So it was a lot of
00:50:04
aerobic based more than, you know, strength-based. Nowadays it's it's a blend of everything and diet. We didn't
00:50:11
diet didn't what was diet? We didn't know. We didn't know. You one of your
00:50:15
heroes um BG Super Williams I had him on the podcast and he talked about like the
00:50:19
tours in the 70s how they'd um like have a big steak for breakfast and first half
00:50:24
of the game he said he'd be like burping up steak and stuff and then uh you the
00:50:28
body would digest it and the second half you start to get the energy from you only you only knew what you knew, right?
00:50:33
That's what so that's what you go on. Um, I mean mine mine used to be baked
00:50:38
beans, eggs. Um, I might have had fries and bacon I think was my and a certain time before
00:50:45
the game. That was my that was and we played in the afternoon remember mostly. So it was a pre-match meal probably um
00:50:53
between five and six hours before the game. Now these guys eat much closer to the game um than than what what um what
00:51:00
we used to. But again, they've got all the science around it. M we didn't have
00:51:04
any of it in those days. Yeah, it's quite cool when you look back. It's pretty cool, eh? They're cool
00:51:10
stories. Yeah, they are. But but again, it's it's just you know what you know. I
00:51:14
mean, the guys who played, you know, you sit with Ian Kpatrick and things at times and they got different stories
00:51:18
again. It's just different eras cuz um you know the the the society was different. Um you know, the way they
00:51:25
were judged was different. You know, how often nowadays do we see behaviors of the past that were considered okay
00:51:32
looked through the lens of today are not okay yet we want to litigate them. Well,
00:51:35
I don't think that's particularly fair. Depending on what it is, of course, but
00:51:39
um you know, it's just like, well, you know, times have changed. So, you know,
00:51:44
what happened back then, you know, it just it is it was it was what it was, right? And okay, might we mightn't like
00:51:51
it nowadays, but back then, what you know, if you didn't have an issue with it at the time, eh, it's you just
00:51:57
compare it. Yeah, you can't compare it, right? And by today's lens on certain
00:52:00
things, you can see, yeah, okay, it wasn't this, but again, you only only know what you know, and at certain
00:52:05
times, you only know what you know. And as you grow and evolve and learn and things change, well, and you adapt,
00:52:10
okay, well, Mia, maybe that wasn't, you know, wasn't quite so good, but but it
00:52:14
wasn't considered at the time. And so, you don't judge yourself that way. Yeah.
00:52:17
Anyway, I don't want to get deep and meaningful on this. Oh, no. No, I like it. It's one one thing I like I admire
00:52:23
about you greatly like how you you will put your neck out and speak your mind about things when a lot of the time it's
00:52:28
easier just to just well in today in today's world it's easier to shut up now
00:52:32
I don't do this to be honest I have shut myself off right I mean I don't long
00:52:35
form podcasts are fine and I this is only my third one I've done but it's
00:52:39
simply because you get a chance to have a proper conversation and get context around it unless someone decides to clip
00:52:44
this for their own end but um um so you just anyway I so I just I got better things to So I'm just saying I don't the
00:52:53
world we live in it's so easy to get you I mean poke your head above the parabet
00:52:57
boom they lop it off easy easy easy you know and maybe a cowardly way is I don't
00:53:01
want to be part of that I did that once upon a time um I'm at a time of life now
00:53:05
with grandchildren and you know wanting to spend more time at home that I just it's not what I want not what I want to
00:53:09
be part of don't eat it not your circus not your monkeys um so we're so we're
00:53:15
leading up to the 87 World Cup but before then there was the Cavaliers tour I'm um I I'm I'm 52, but I don't even
00:53:22
remember the backstory with this. What's the What's the story with the Oh, there
00:53:25
been there have been So, we were due to tour as an all black team in 1985. An all black team had been picked. I got
00:53:29
picked in that team. And, you know, for for at that period, and I'd still argue
00:53:33
nowadays, they are the our great foes, our great friends, but our great foes. The history's enormous, right? Um, you
00:53:39
know, it took us till 1996 to win a series in South Africa, and they've been
00:53:42
going on for, you know, 1921, I think, was the first time we went to South Africa. Um, or they might have come
00:53:48
here. I can't remember which way round. um we were picked and then a couple of
00:53:52
um uh university club lawyers who was a club I belong to um took an injunction out against the New Zealand rugby union
00:53:58
and um the tour was stopped by a high court judge called Ted Thomas I think um and so that tour was scrapped and so you
00:54:05
know a rebel tour was put together the next year because there's a lot of us
00:54:08
who felt unjustly denied because we just you know there's a lot of people who
00:54:12
still want to link sport and politics. I don't draw that link at all. I understand how people want to do it but
00:54:18
we because they were thinking by going to play in South Africa we were condoning a part of I can't think of
00:54:22
anyone there wouldn't have been in our team who condoned it at all but we just
00:54:25
wanted to play sport against our foes we didn't want to be pawns in a bigger game
00:54:29
right so um we just want to get on so that's there was a great frustration from the group and so I think only David
00:54:35
Kirk and John Cen from the original select selected group didn't go of 30 and so that was April 1986 I think we
00:54:42
went on that tour because I genuinely thought at the time, I may never get the chance to play against the Spring Box as
00:54:49
an All Black, but I want to play them. We knew um that we were likely to be banned. Um we knew the risks involved.
00:54:58
Um but for me, I just wanted to test myself as a rugby player in this against the great foe who I'd watch growing up
00:55:04
who we could never beat in their in their backyard. That was and I want and grow and became a better rugby. I
00:55:10
believe I came back a better rugby player. I don't want to get into the political side of things cuz it wasn't
00:55:15
in my not so it wasn't in my head not you know people trying to suggest um if
00:55:20
we did things how we were thinking and therefore judge us on that they they don't know us they don't know what we
00:55:25
think was was there any sort of riff between the players that went and say Kirk and Kerwin for not I don't look I
00:55:32
mean with with I think there might have been with Kirky um more with perhaps um you know the late great Andy Hayden a
00:55:41
little bit um overtly. I didn't I I either I didn't see it or I can't
00:55:45
remember it. I'm not trying to um ignore the question, but I genu genuinely can't. Um Kirky might have, you know,
00:55:52
perhaps, you know, um made some comments publicly where I think maybe JK didn't
00:55:57
and, you know, maybe um with Kirky's, you know, um um value system, his values, it might have rubbed a couple of
00:56:07
guys up the wrong way. Kirk is entitled to his views and his opinions and his beliefs. Um that might have played out a
00:56:13
little bit, but again I can't I can't remember it. Um 40 years ago and yeah and look that's in that's in
00:56:21
the past, right? Um um I but I genuinely believe as we lead into the 87 thing that that that helped mold the great
00:56:29
team that started in 1987. How so? Because a whole lot of because um a number of us were banned and we didn't
00:56:37
you got like a two two two test span right two test span um so a whole new team had to be picked so a whole lot of
00:56:44
players got exposed um to all black test rugby who wouldn't have got an opportunity otherwise right because if
00:56:50
that would in 85 largely um you know through 86 and 87 a lot of the group would have been similar so you exposed a
00:56:58
whole lot more players to that and the baby blats were ultimately successful right because they weren't expected to
00:57:06
be Um and and out of that it was a wider pool of players to pick from and with Brian Lore, John Hart and Alex Wy they
00:57:15
picked a blend of what had been the older guys, established guys and some of the baby blacks and I generally think
00:57:20
that out of that we got we got two things. one is um you know a very well selected team because I got you know
00:57:28
some really good players were exposed and deserve to be included and secondly there you know there was adversity for
00:57:34
the game in New Zealand um and we had also lost a test series to Australia in 1986 at home so that was adversity also
00:57:42
as well as you know the background stuff with the Cavaliers so you learn more from adversity than success so out of
00:57:48
that that those two things the adversity um and um the wider the talent pool that
00:57:53
ultimately got whittleled down to a 26 strong playing group for the World Cup. They they were the they were well wasn't
00:57:59
the reason, but they were the su they were the seeds of success. So yeah, the 1987 Rugby World Cup, the first ever
00:58:06
Rugby World Cup y um which the All Blacks won. I I I believe there was no sort of hype around it like when the
00:58:12
tournament started. No, I don't I don't recall and again this is my memory not
00:58:15
being not being great for something that happened how many years ago now? 30 30 whatever
00:58:20
is better. Yeah, you're better at math than me. Um but yeah, I mean I'm pretty
00:58:25
sure it was Friday the um 20th of May. Um and someone will prove me wrong here. Um 1987 we played Italy um to open the
00:58:32
World Cup with a half full Eden Park. No one knew what to expect. You know, World
00:58:37
Cup World Cup was something that I understand was pretty strongly driven by the Southern Hemisphere nations that
00:58:43
ultimately got a support from one or two northern hemisphere nations who I don't
00:58:46
think were for the idea at all. But anyway, um it got through and it was started and you know it was meandering
00:58:52
along to be perfectly honest. Um you know we were beating Italy but not by much. It was a muddling sort of first
00:58:58
half. The first try was a penalty try. Michael Jones scored the first real try. And I've said this often and I am going
00:59:05
to say it again that what I think still what lit the World Cup is JK's try. That
00:59:08
was you you set him up. You No, I just passed. Kirky passed it to me and I passed it to JK. That's all it was.
00:59:14
Right. A good pass. Um but you know 70 odd meters out and away he went. Right. And it would just it lit it up I reckon.
00:59:20
But it all but we ultimately put 70 on Italy. So I think that that started to build that you know okay maybe we've got
00:59:26
something here in this team and maybe this event's a little bit more than what
00:59:29
we thought it was. So it built throughout the tournament and you know obviously we got through it through pool
00:59:33
play through finals play got to the final beat France in the final um and look where look where the World Cup is
00:59:40
now in the Pantheon World events. I mean it's about the number three most watched
00:59:44
sort of world this style of event in the world as I understand. So it's or third
00:59:48
or fourth. So it's come a long way. Yeah, it's crazy. So you win the the
00:59:53
inaugural one in ' 87. Like there's no way of knowing. We'll get to 91 soon
00:59:57
because you were like the villain of 91 after all blacks didn't win. But who
01:00:00
would have thought it would be like 2011 before we finally won another one. It's
01:00:04
I know it's a long time between Yeah, it is. I mean it just shows you how hard
01:00:07
they win. I know All Blacks I think at every World Cup um up until um 2011 had probably gone in as favorites, right? uh
01:00:16
and hadn't won since 1987 just shows you how hard they are to win because when
01:00:23
you play a seasonl long you know um uh tournament that you know like a super rugby thing that culminates later on and
01:00:30
you got a whole lot of games you can handles handle a loss of two or three um um world cup even a loss and pool play
01:00:36
can be terminal um and certainly losing a final series is terminal so if you have one bad day at the office you're
01:00:42
done and sadly for the All Blacks that was a bit of a trend that that plagued them until we got it right in 2011. And
01:00:49
even in 2011, you know, I'd still argue we weren't the best team in the final.
01:00:54
We were the best team at the tournament. We just weren't the best team on the
01:00:56
day, but we found a way to win. Um, and that had come out of the adversity of of
01:01:02
um 2007 because Richie in particular, as you know, a young leader in 2007, but a
01:01:08
very experienced leader in 2011, he knew how to navigate that. him and you know the the senior guys around knew how to
01:01:13
navigate those tense bloody last sort of 10 or 15 minutes. They knew how to do it
01:01:18
and not not um 2007 they didn't know how to do it. So again out of adversity you
01:01:25
learn. Yeah 100% you do. Um so the 87 World Cup did you guys go were you bulleted? You you based at the
01:01:34
Panamu for the most part right? Uh no we traveled we traveled so Panamu was the Oakland base. We we played games in
01:01:40
Wellington and we played games in Christ Church. What was the bulleting thing? Was it was that just like It was after
01:01:44
Argent It was after Argentina and Wellington and pool play and um um Brian Lahore something he had organized. We
01:01:50
didn't know about it. So the little little place called Paninoa um I'm pretty sure I'm right here the late
01:01:55
great Sir Brian Lahore. He just his way of keeping us grounded, right? And so we
01:01:59
go to this community hall. We had no idea we're going to be billeted. You know, it was just like we thought it was
01:02:04
a community event. Good idea. Get in the rural community. Next one this week comes in. Well, Fox and Shelfford you
01:02:09
were with. Oh, okay. What's this about? And so, I think it was only for a couple
01:02:13
of nights, but it was just it was a master stroke by um BJ, you know, just to, you know, to to maybe just take us
01:02:21
away from the pressure of the tournament environment, living in each other's
01:02:24
pockets in a hotel, give us a taste of, you know, real Kiwi country lifestyle. Take our mind off for a bit before we
01:02:31
gathered again for an assault on the finals. So, so you were staying in like just a house with a family. Yeah. Again,
01:02:36
I can't exactly remember, but yeah, and I'm pretty sure it was Buck and I were
01:02:40
billeted together. Um, it's funny enough, my first billet um wasn't um was
01:02:46
going back to 1975 in the Roller Mills tournament in Otra Honga and I stayed with the Kudson family. So, I can
01:02:52
remember that, but I can't remember the fan we stayed at in the W rapper. They
01:02:56
will know who they are, but um yeah, I just Yeah. Anyway, just the way my brain works sometimes or doesn't work. Yeah.
01:03:02
Well, it's g these stories, it's a long time ago. long time ago, but there were,
01:03:06
you know, if there were some kids in that household, like imagine the impact that had on had on them. Like, you know,
01:03:11
growing up, I guess. So, but I'd grown up on a farm, so I loved it, you know,
01:03:16
and Buck was a Navy man, right? So, you know, I mean, farming was easy, the farm
01:03:21
life. We probably went out and helped them feed out hay in that, too. I'm pretty pretty sure we did, but I can't
01:03:25
exactly remember. But it was again it was just a master stroke of psychology from from Brian Lor just to change the
01:03:31
frame a little bit to get us set for you know for a run at the finals. Can you imagine that now like having a having a
01:03:38
Barrett or a severe staying at your house for a couple of days like it's just
01:03:43
and the problem the problem is nowadays you probably have a media camp on your doorstep too if that happens. So you you
01:03:49
you wouldn't do that nowadays. There's a lot the profile of these guys cuz the
01:03:52
way the media is nowadays in some ways is they're a bit more exposed than we
01:03:56
were. You know, it was mainstream media in our days. Um and we worked and so I think there was a certain degree of well
01:04:02
you are um you know you're just like us in many ways. Nowadays I think that people feel a bit more ownership and
01:04:08
it's the wrong word. I put it inverted commas but because these guys earn their
01:04:11
living out of playing the game they feel maybe they've got a bit more say and a
01:04:15
bit more ownership of it. I don't believe that at all, but I do think that's part of the way some people think
01:04:20
sometimes, right? You're earning some of your wages come from me buying a ticket.
01:04:25
And I don't think that's that's right. But you know, maybe I've got that wrong,
01:04:29
but you know, I just sort of feel at times these guys live in a hell of a fishbowl nowadays. It's you know, I mean
01:04:36
um we had a lot of fun um touring and these guys, modern day guys don't know
01:04:40
any different either. So they're having just as much fun. They just didn't they
01:04:44
their funds different than what ours was doing different things, right? Um yeah,
01:04:48
a lot of that is probably they're aware of the danger they can get get into with
01:04:51
alcohol, but a lot of it's the iPhone's a bigger thing, social media, cameras
01:04:56
everywhere, right? Well, I wonder if part of it is the professionalism angle as well. Like um yeah, someone like
01:05:00
Ruben Love who takes his fitness incredibly seriously. Like I wonder if he's sure. Yeah, but we had guys did it.
01:05:04
It just wasn't in the public arena. It wasn't a forum for a ride and we didn't
01:05:07
have Instagram or bloody whatever Tik Tok or that to display all that. him, you know, we we weren't earning money
01:05:12
off our own our own image rights or whatever. It was it's just a different time. I'm not passing judgment. It's
01:05:17
just different. Yeah, it was a good time, eh? Well, again, you only know what you know. You
01:05:25
only know what you know. So, where do we learn from the guys who gone before us,
01:05:28
right? So, you only know what you know. I mean, you know what we did in those days, I mean, how many how much beer we
01:05:34
used to consume after games, you'd sort of frown upon nowadays, but you only
01:05:37
know what you know. Yeah. you know, and and to be honest, the media couldn't we
01:05:41
couldn't get in trouble with the media because we played daytime footy. They'd
01:05:44
fold and and or you know, um their stories. They'd be coming a beer with us, you know. It wouldn't necessarily be
01:05:50
it wouldn't be in the team room. It might be at a pub down the road from and
01:05:52
with some locals, you know, that was just that's the way it was. Yeah. Yeah. There's changes that happen over
01:05:59
over time for good, but also things that get lost, which is kind of I mean I mean
01:06:03
not everything that happened nowadays is better than it was in the old days, but
01:06:06
it is what it is. Yeah. Who who was um who were your best friends and your favorite roommates at that time? Oh, I
01:06:12
don't remember favorite room. We used to get roommed with I mean most often paired with a half peak but but but a
01:06:17
lot but other times not. So I don't remember. I just I mean I'd like to think that I got on well with everybody.
01:06:22
I was intense. I knew that it was the way that I prepared and played and by nature I'm that. I'm not I'm not the
01:06:28
practical joker like Alan Whitten was and not many of the guys were but you know my I had an intensity about the way
01:06:34
I went about things. I think the guys knew and understood that. um and gave you space because we all knew we all had
01:06:41
our own foables and we all had a common goal on what we were trying to achieve and we gave each other space to to do it
01:06:48
the way that we thought was best for ourselves that could contribute to the team. So I don't recall, you know, um um
01:06:55
you know, favorite roommates or anything like that. They they changed off often enough. And that was good for the team
01:07:00
dynamic, too, you know, to make sure you're mixed up. And you know, one thing
01:07:03
I think that used to happen is if we had, you know, the if there was an option of different floors, the guys who
01:07:08
weren't playing in particular, like you take a big touring group in those days,
01:07:12
we only had six reserves. the the the rest who were the dirty dirty who were the other nine of us put down the other
01:07:18
end of the hotel and kept away because that was a license to have a bit of fun for a few days still train hard but have
01:07:23
a bit of fun because we weren't playing. Um so yeah again just things were different then they are now. What about
01:07:29
the most um underrated player of your era? Oh again I don't don't sort of
01:07:34
think of things like this Dom at all um to be honest. I mean, everyone um um who you you play with were good
01:07:43
enough to be selected by a coach who believed in them. And you know, like all all like know all people who play sport
01:07:50
in elite level. Um they're all there for a reason. They're good enough. Are some
01:07:55
better than others? Yes. That cream usually rises to the top. Um you know, we're talking in the studio. you know it
01:08:02
you can identifying X factor talent um I think is not that hard to do but the X factor talent that then maximizes that
01:08:09
are the ones that work hardest so you maximize your your extraordinary talents with a work ethic and then you get your
01:08:16
Tiger Woods your Roger Federers your Martin Crows right that's what you get a
01:08:20
whole lot of other people carve out good careers and they're good enough to win
01:08:25
occasionally you know a random will win a PJ tour event or random's unfair word
01:08:30
but or a tennis tournament, but they're good enough and they have their day in
01:08:33
the sun, but they're just not as consistent because they don't quite have
01:08:36
the talent. They might have the work ethic, but not quite the talent. That's
01:08:39
what sets them apart, right? So, we have a lot of guys who, you know, they'd have
01:08:42
an outstanding game and then they'd still play well, but not be recognized as such in another game. Still doing
01:08:48
their job very well, but just not having that one and one, you know, that 10% of
01:08:53
a game I talked about earlier about how when you're absolutely at your peak. M
01:08:56
it's just it's it's the nature of it's the nature of high level sport. Yeah. We
01:09:01
were talking earlier pre-podcast about um Michael Jordan and the Last Dance documentary series on Netflix.
01:09:08
Phenomenal. You very different sports um and different eras. But um you you must
01:09:14
have been in some Michael Jordan situations in in the respect that you know the game has won or lost depending
01:09:19
on your boot. Yeah. Not very often but occasionally. Um I mean most lucky enough that a lot of teams I played in
01:09:26
you know were dominant enough of the time that and um that I was very rarely in a situation at the end of a game I
01:09:33
had to kick a goal to win. It did happen but but um not that often or because you
01:09:37
were dominant you'd you know I'd kick well as well as a team scoring tries
01:09:41
during the game that at the end of the game there was not an issue because we we were winning comfortably enough. Um
01:09:48
and you know yes I succeeded at times I was in that situation. I failed at times
01:09:51
too. Um, how was that for you? I there's two things. There's two of them I
01:09:56
remember both at opposite ends of the spectrum. So, obviously, you know, the um the 93 lines where I'd um um had
01:10:05
kicked the goal to win a game at was then Lancaster Park, but I also missed I'd say go back a year earlier the 1992
01:10:11
tour to Australia, the All Black. So, they were the world champions in ' 91.
01:10:14
We were rebuilding. They were an established world champion team and playing like it too. And we had a three
01:10:19
test series in Australia. Then in the first test I had a goal kick. I'm not sure whether whether it was in the last
01:10:24
five or you know five or six minutes. You know it was a testy kick for me and those you guys can kick them from that
01:10:30
distance easy nowadays but it was a testy kick. I missed it and we lost by a point and I was distraught afterwards
01:10:36
like absolutely cuz the winning of that game was in my hands and um you know but
01:10:41
I had a team come round me um JK in particular came pick me up because I still remember vividly going and sitting
01:10:48
in the showers on my own. I didn't want to talk to anybody. I was just pissed
01:10:52
off. Um cuz I felt I'd let them down cuz kicking goals is my job. But JK on the
01:10:58
bus rescued me. And then in the in the in the team room after we had the old court session, everyone knows
01:11:03
understands what went on though those days. Lori Mains came to me. He was a coach and he he he said, "This is not
01:11:10
your fault." Um so that picked me up, you know. Then we then we lost the second test by two points and won the
01:11:16
third by three. still even though we lost it, I still think the best test series I ever that I was part of, lucky
01:11:21
enough to be part of that, you know, they were good side Australia. We were rebuilding. Um, we scored the same
01:11:26
number of tries, penalties, conversions, dropped goals, except they won the first
01:11:29
test by one, the second by two, and we won the third by three. But out of that, I've still got some great mates, you
01:11:34
know, when Ryan won the other day, first guy on the phone, Nick Far Jones. Wow. You know, yeah. So, Australian legend.
01:11:41
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, great man. Far. So um you know the the the friendships we developed out of that are
01:11:47
still very strong. That's um yeah those messages like um Sir JK and Lori Mains like releasing you
01:11:57
from the guilt did Yeah. Did that but that but that was that was about team. Yeah. Right. And that was about a mate
01:12:02
hurting and and um that's what good mates do and good and good teams do you know because the nature of um of um
01:12:10
doesn't matter what level you play at and when you are when you are playing for a result because there is a winner
01:12:15
and a loser or sometimes you draw but winner and a loser well um you're going
01:12:20
to experience highs but you're going to have lows too you know and that's just
01:12:24
the nature of you put yourself out there and want to do it it's not all bear and
01:12:26
skittles you don't always get what you want and you got to learn to to cope with um um and be gracious about defeat,
01:12:34
but learn from it and try and get better from it. So, the the 1999 1991 Rugby World Cup,
01:12:42
so there's the 871, which we won. By the way, you scored a drop goal 14 minutes
01:12:46
into the final. Y um the 1991 Rugby World Cup, I' I've forgotten all about
01:12:52
this. I'm guessing a lot of people listening or watching this would have as well, but um reading your book, which
01:12:56
what what year did your book come out? 92. Okay. So this was very very So this is a year later and fresh at the time.
01:13:04
Um yeah you you were like um public enemy number one like you were you were like a a villain. Yeah. Didn't play very
01:13:09
well and I and I I was playing on an injury. Um but there was a lot I mean the team our team we' had a great period
01:13:17
from 87 through to um 1991 sorry 1990. Uh we had won uh 23 tests in a row um with uh one draw. It's still a
01:13:28
record I think in those days we played touring games and there was 50 games undefeated in a row. Um and a very
01:13:36
senior experienced group but you know there were some of us starting to struggle a bit um and we were still
01:13:42
selected um because we still had a great desire to be there but you know we probably weren't where we needed to be.
01:13:47
I had injured a um uh we toured Argentina earlier before the World Cup and id injured um a muscle a sort of
01:13:56
stomach muscle attached to the pubic bone that I' the pubic bone's joined by
01:13:59
a piece of cartilage and I'd severed that and so my pelvis was unstable and so it was a it was I was really battling
01:14:07
um I was often told at the time that this will take 12 months to heal and you can't play well that wasn't an option
01:14:13
for me so I just I worked my way through with a lot of treatment 3 days a week on
01:14:16
a massage table with a guy called George Duncan. Um, you know, I played in sort of neoprene bloody um, like wets suit
01:14:24
shorts, like undies, trying to get blood into there and get it warm. I mean, it was just I couldn't practice like I
01:14:29
wanted to cuz it hurt like bloody hell. The benefit of hindsight, I should have taken myself out, right? And nowadays,
01:14:34
you would. Um, but, you know, I got picked and I didn't play very well, you know. Um, the team was struggling. Um,
01:14:41
we had the, you know, Alex was the coach. um you know um he was John Hart was put with him. I still believe there
01:14:48
are made an error here. They still both great coaches in their own right. Um but
01:14:53
um they should have either endorsed Alex or sacked him. Mhm. May rest in peace. But um they didn't. They put them
01:15:00
together. Two very different people, two very good coaches, but just completely different approaches. So that behind the
01:15:06
scenes I don't think helped at all. Um and the team was struggling. and we played against an Aussie team that was
01:15:10
on the up and on the day they deserved to beat us and they did did comfortably. I still remember that day that we had
01:15:16
struggled in the tournament. We got to a semi and thought okay we we can still do
01:15:19
this and I can remember we had a a calling system and it was always towards me towards Michael Jones or Alan went um
01:15:26
and AJ was gone by then. Um Michael mainly so where the where's the ball going to be? Where what channel are we
01:15:32
attacking? So Michael knew as he pulled his head out where he was going so he could you know get a head start. And
01:15:38
when I think back now, the calling system was so basic that anyone who was listening could pick it up. Well, Simon
01:15:42
Pivan could pick it up. So, everyone's like, Po, how the hell are you there? He
01:15:47
deciphered our code system. So, we just battled, right? And talk about radar was
01:15:52
still relatively in its infancy. And, you know, Gary was the captain, so he wasn't popular either. So, we coped it.
01:15:58
Um, and you know, coping it for performance is fine, but some of it I think went beyond performance. Um, and
01:16:04
got personal. I mean, you know, Dom, when it gets to a point when you've got
01:16:10
a um a four-year-old son who's not unaware of what's going on around him,
01:16:16
who's saying to my wife, "What's daddy done wrong?" You know, it's not right.
01:16:20
You know, the kid, they shouldn't be that, you know, that shouldn't be going
01:16:23
performance. Yes. Other judgments um you know, just went a bit far. Yeah. Yeah. How do you when you reflect on that now
01:16:31
like it's a long time ago but like does it does does it bring it back up and
01:16:35
make you feel angry or is it a sense of No, it doesn't. No, no, no. Because I've
01:16:38
consigned that to the past. But but what is interesting is that that to be I generally felt I just I don't need this
01:16:44
in my life. I'm going to retire. But I didn't want to make the decision while I
01:16:48
was emotional because I was I was you know very upset that you know that we hadn't achieved what we set out to do.
01:16:53
upset with myself. Um, you know, pissed off with, you know, the narrative that was out there that was, you know, more
01:17:00
than what it needed to be. I got there was going to get some. I just thought it was more than what it needed to be. Um,
01:17:06
and people put themselves in my shoes. They I defy them to feel any different. It's easier when you when you're loading
01:17:12
the gun and pulling the bullets if you're the one firing the shot. If you're the one at the other end, it's a
01:17:16
different scenario. Um, so I then decided I'm not going to let I love this game. I want to play with my mates. I'm
01:17:24
not going to let that the the naysayers beat me and I'm going to I want to keep
01:17:29
playing. Uh cuz the decision for me was partly about if I had if I had to play one year, I had to play two years
01:17:34
because the Lions were coming in 93. And my thought was, well, to be fair to the
01:17:38
All Blacks, if I'm good enough and they want me, I've got to commit for two
01:17:41
years. I can't just do one. they need to start the be building the new 58, have
01:17:45
the new 58 ready to go by the time I stop if I'm still good enough to be picked. Um, so that was part of and I'm
01:17:52
I'm glad I did that. Um, and the funny thing is now we talked about it even in
01:17:56
your introduction. So no, no one's remembering the negative stuff at 91 are they? Yes, we know about it, but the
01:18:02
memory, your judgment now is very different, you know, whereas back at that time that's like they're they're at
01:18:06
you. Nowadays with time passing and the career as a whole as opposed to an isolated pocket, the jud the lens is
01:18:14
different. Yeah. So again, I'd cleanly forgotten about this, but then reading
01:18:17
reading your book, I've got a passage here. This is um a part of your book, a
01:18:20
chapter that was written by Adele. Adele, who it's the first chapter of the book. Yeah. Yeah. Which um you can tell
01:18:26
she's emotional about it when she's when she's writing. like it's um it's an
01:18:29
angry chapter. Um and it's actually heartbreaking to read as well. Our son Ryan is five. He loves to hold a ball of
01:18:36
any shape or a bat or racket. But may he never have to tolerate such criticism as has come his father's way.
01:18:44
And may he never indulge in it at the expense of others. I think you've done
01:18:48
well. He hasn't. Right. That's that's right. Um that too will be part of his
01:18:53
education. Uh he has heard comments on radio and they have bewildered him. He asks, "Why do they say that about daddy?
01:19:00
What did daddy do wrong?" That's when you know it's wrong. It's
01:19:04
devastating. That's wrong. Um how do you deal with this? Um I mean, I'd argue it's all it's worse nowadays,
01:19:12
too, because we just had talkback radio and mainstream media out. What do I got to deal with? And I don't I mean my my
01:19:20
promise if someone um and there's a lot and Adele also said there's a lot that went on behind the
01:19:27
scenes away from the Rabie Field in terms of you know giving time to with others who are less fortunate than you.
01:19:35
You talked about that your the impact that you had on um a sick young boy and also some elderly people. Yeah. So um
01:19:41
but that's just No one wants to know about that though in the media do they?
01:19:44
No not really. No. Um, and not but if we don't tell them about it, they're not to
01:19:49
know. So, not I won't blame it's their fault. The only thing I would say is
01:19:52
that, you know, it happens today. I, you know, there's a lot of talk about where
01:19:57
social media fits now and how negative it can be. I just hide the hate the fact that a whole lot of people hide behind
01:20:03
pseudonyms, right, and handles. If you want to you want to do it, you got to my law I'd make is your real name's got to
01:20:10
be on it. M put your real name on it and see if you're prepared to say the same
01:20:13
things because then we know who you are properly and we can respond properly. But if you hide behind a mask, well,
01:20:21
everyone can be brave behind a maskless. It's gutless, right? So that's it. And
01:20:25
then and and you know, we did get letters that weren't signed, right? Cuz that was that was a landscape. That was
01:20:31
the landscape in those days, right? Be people who didn't sign letters. You know, if someone wanted to rip rip me
01:20:36
and but was prepared to put a name and address so I could respond if I wanted to, fine. Without an address and without
01:20:42
a name, gutless. Yeah. Adele talked about that while while Grant was still in Britain for the World Cup, a letter
01:20:48
was sent to him care of New Zealand Rugby Union and it was passed on to me. It contained a newspaper clipping and
01:20:53
scrolled around it were derogatory comments uh clearly designed to hurt. That's outrageous. I just I can't
01:20:59
understand the mentality of some people, right? you know, I mean, these people have got to think back to their own
01:21:04
lives and think, well, mate may, you know, at times I didn't get everything I
01:21:07
wanted and I didn't achieve and but yeah, okay, we're not we're not we were
01:21:11
an escape for some people, I guess, because, you know, um and the All Black's history and legacy got a lot to
01:21:16
do with it. I wouldn't change it for quits, right? Because the expectations are enormous. No bigger than what the
01:21:21
team put on themselves. In fact, the team's expectations are bigger and I don't want that ever to change. Just at
01:21:27
times you got to think there's a human being on the end of this and they have a
01:21:30
family and they have parents, right? And if the boot was on the other foot, what's the saying? Treat treat unto
01:21:35
others treat treat others as you want to be treated or something. All right. So I
01:21:40
just think you certain principles you should live by and I think that's one of
01:21:43
them. Yeah. And it was it was around this time and I I I again didn't know anything about this until the book but
01:21:50
um there was like a big like nationwide rumor about you and Buck Shelfford having a fight. Yeah. Never had
01:21:55
laughable. Never. With all due respect, I'd waste you, right? You You think I'd
01:21:59
be dumb enough to take him on, right? I mean, you know, we It was And look, again, I don't remember this that
01:22:06
vividly. It was a long time ago now, but you know, it was a game um was it Scotland? No, it wasn't. Oh, it might
01:22:13
have been Scotland. And um and the game had I think we' won, but it hadn't gone
01:22:19
that well. And you know, Buck made a comment about about um he's you know, asked by media and his
01:22:26
response was a typical direct buck comment about you know me being the general in the eyes and ears and it
01:22:31
wasn't complimentary but it wasn't meant to be derogatory either it was just a
01:22:34
statement of fact and he would have been right but all of a sudden this is like there's fisty cuffs I mean it never
01:22:39
happened but that rumor still persists to this day right that it's still it's
01:22:43
it's rubbish and Buck would Buck would confirm that it did not happen right and
01:22:48
and look he got you know he got dropped and he clearly wasn't happy about it and
01:22:53
um Um and and with some people that resonates to this day. You see, it's like, well, so you got to got to let
01:22:59
things go. The the sad thing at all of that is that look, Buck was a great leader and a great player, right? Um and
01:23:06
didn't lose as an all black captain. Um and and was, you know, a great statesman
01:23:11
for our game. What's often lost in this? Who was the next number eight? Zenzan
01:23:15
Brookke. M well I mean I felt sorry for Zen in this period too because he wasn't
01:23:19
getting the recognition he deserved for being a very a number of a very different skill set um but an emerging
01:23:26
talent going on to become a great player that we could all see. So I felt a bit sorry for Zinn in this narrative because
01:23:32
he just he didn't get the recognism that he he deserved. It was all on Buck and I
01:23:36
get that but it was just you know Zinny did all right. He had a hell of a career. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um
01:23:42
yeah, but it must have been hard and and yeah, the whole I I I do um remember the
01:23:46
bring back Buck campaign. It became like what you'd call a meme. You still see it
01:23:49
occasionally, which in a funny way is great. I mean, you know, I mean, as I said, I mean, I I mean, I don't see Buck
01:23:56
that often. And and you know, a lot of us I mean, we got a group together to go down to Al Alex's memorial service,
01:24:02
right? And you know, um um Grizz dropped Buck, right? Um, and it was, you know, it wasn't, um, you know, there would, it
01:24:11
wasn't easy at the time. It's probably the wrong word, but I'll use that. But
01:24:15
when I circulate the boys an email saying, "Hey guys, we all played with them." You know, the group was, you
01:24:21
know, I'd like to go down. You want to come? Well, within a heartbeat, bang,
01:24:23
bang, they come back. Buck is one of them. Yep. I'm in. Right. And so you you
01:24:27
you wouldn't I mean, that's just the man, right? That's who the man is,
01:24:31
right? So a group of us went, eight of us went down, right, to go and um honor Alex because we had had great success
01:24:38
with him. Great time. He was our all black coach. Um sadly not with us anymore. He had had a private uh a
01:24:45
private family um service. Um but at Glen Mark and it was cool, you know, go down went and we got all black manager
01:24:51
at the time uh with Alex, a guy called John Sturgeon. Sturgeis nearly 90. He was in a hospital in Christ Church and
01:24:58
so groupers went and saw Sturgey um which we love that man and so he was you know there were tears when we everyone
01:25:03
saw each other and then we went out to Glenmark where most of us had never been. So that was pretty cool to go out
01:25:08
the Glen Mark rugby club and you know see some old players that we you know like Warrick Taylor and Victor Simpson
01:25:14
and you know John Mills and John Bucken and guys like that we'd played Donnie
01:25:18
Hayes was there. Um it's just great to catch up with those guys in a you know
01:25:22
situation that you know we wish Alex was still with us but you know that time comes to us all and it was a great way
01:25:27
to you know remember Alex and honor him and then for for some of us to have a yarn we hadn't seen each other in years.
01:25:34
Oh how good during that period in um ' 91 92 like how was your mental health in that
01:25:41
period? Uh fine I think. Yeah. I mean, if I think back now, judged by today's
01:25:46
standards, I they might have classed me as depressed, but I don't remember that
01:25:49
at all. Um, you know, I was a I was a farm boy, bought up, you know, bought up to be a bit staunch in that area. Um,
01:25:57
what was the time, wasn't it? It was hard. Yeah. Just hard enough. Yeah. No,
01:26:00
no, to be honest, I played I played all my career with John Cuban. I didn't see
01:26:05
them his mental health issues. Not once was a witness that I could say, I got a mate who's struggling, which is more on
01:26:10
me than him. Um, but I never noticed it. And yet look look at the stories that you know JK and he's changed mental
01:26:17
health for men in this country. That's why God has kned not for his services to
01:26:20
rugby though deserved it for that for his services to mental health because he made it okay for men to be vulnerable
01:26:27
in a big way. You've had him on the podcast. I've talked about him to numerous other people. Like I can't
01:26:31
imagine how terrifying it was for him to speak publicly about it when he did cuz
01:26:35
I mean it's he he set the platform now where it's very easy for men to talk
01:26:39
about vulnerability. So we talk in the old black now we talk about vulnerability right because
01:26:43
vulnerability is a strength not a weakness right but we were all meant to be staunch that was way bought up
01:26:48
actually you need help ask for help it's not a weakness I mean I can remember um
01:26:53
and look um JK is probably the former player I talk to most nowadays right um but um when he became blues coach we
01:27:02
we've both got houses at W Beach and the surf club had rung and they for fundraiser over Chris has wanted to set
01:27:07
up a little function and they asked me would I come and speak I said, "Well,
01:27:10
yeah, but me alone's not enough." Um, and I only do question and answer. I
01:27:14
don't do sort of keynote speaking. So, I'll ring I'll ring JK because if we get
01:27:17
the both of us, it might work. So, I rang JK. He said, "Yeah, mate. No problem." So, I said to Surf Club
01:27:23
president, you know, we need an MC. We need SP we need the microphone, need it all set up properly, so that would work
01:27:28
in the room. We're in the surf club anyway. JK drives down as he's a head
01:27:32
coach. He drives down um and the Blues would turn up and no MC. There is a speaker in that, but there's no MC and
01:27:39
I'm I don't like doing this stuff. JK said, "Foxy, I got this." So, he gets up
01:27:44
on stage. We're in Chief's country, right? And his blues gear. And he just
01:27:49
said, "How like my kit?" Well, everyone laughed. And um anyway, we just we
01:27:54
talked rugby off the floor for about 40 minutes and then had a wee break and then came back and JK did a mental
01:28:00
health thing. I told you for the next 40 minutes he just talked let people ask questions and talk you it was
01:28:05
unbelievable what I saw him do um you know to a point guy a guy asked a question and JK said mate are you okay
01:28:14
cuz I can see you're hurting for so while we'd had 40 minutes of laughter we
01:28:19
had 40 minutes of deathly quiet it was remarkable um how the response was in this room and he's got better and better
01:28:26
at it but I just I I was witness to it that day and thought wow Um, and look what he's done for, as I said, for for
01:28:33
men's mental health in this country. Yeah. Did he tell Did he tell the incredible story he tells about um the
01:28:39
Iceman, Michael Jones? So, they you were probably on the same tour. So, they were in Argentina. Yeah.
01:28:46
Staying staying on this I think the seventh floor he said of some hotel and he was contemplating like just diving up
01:28:51
the Sorry. I heard this recently. I heard this recently. Yeah. It might have been It might have been um on your
01:28:57
podcast. He did. It was a podcast I heard him on. one of the new one talked about jumping jumping out window. Yeah,
01:29:02
I only heard that recently. Yeah. Yeah. And Sir Michael Jones was on the bed next to him. They were rooming at the
01:29:06
time and just out of the blue um he just said um JK, you've got a good heart.
01:29:11
Yeah. And um that's what stopped him in that moment and kept him going for the
01:29:14
next one. It's powerful stuff. Yeah, it is really incredible. Yeah. What was
01:29:18
What was he like? Are you still in touch with Sir Michael? Yeah, occasionally. I
01:29:21
mean, when Ryan won the other day, the Iceman, there's a text comes from the
01:29:24
Iceman. So again, I mean, he's a busy man, right? Um, and we're all busy with
01:29:27
our own families and our own lives. Um, but we've all got each other's numbers
01:29:30
and so it's not, you know, as I said, I mean, I ring JK regularly. Um, Gary Witten, Wrigley, Joe Stanley. Um, um,
01:29:40
JK, AJ, Joe. Yeah, those guys. They're regular ones, right? Ben McCall's got an
01:29:44
email circular going. He regularly keeps in touch with the boys. Terry, right, we
01:29:48
saw recently, but Terry's been overseas for a long time, but is back now, you
01:29:51
know, caught up with Stevia McDall. I mean just you know nothing changes you know nothing changes but we just all got
01:29:59
all got our busy lives but um so it's cool it's cool because that that that
01:30:04
closeness is through a shared experience and a bond created from those experiences um and you know we're all
01:30:11
you know and we got a lot more to talk about we don't talk about rugby we all
01:30:14
talk about family you know because we all sort of know what each other's doing
01:30:17
in that regard and you know a lot of us are grandparents now so you know that's
01:30:21
the great joy we can talk about our and kids. We're not talking about footy anymore. So, well, I suppose when you
01:30:26
get to if you're lucky enough, privileged enough to get to this stage of life, you realize what's important
01:30:30
and you know what, reminiscing is is fun. Um, but yeah, it's not No, I mean,
01:30:36
it is fun, but it's not. I mean, life end of the day. You know, the family is
01:30:40
the most important thing in your life. Um and that's you know one of the reasons that you know ultimately the key
01:30:46
reason I stepped away from being involved with the All Blacks. Um in 20202 I think that's right. Um where I had
01:30:56
um yeah I'm trying to work this out now. 2019 20. Yeah 22 it was. um I stepped
01:31:01
away because I just been I'd had 40 years of the game at first class level um playing done some you know media work
01:31:09
television work um sele coaching selecting with the odd little break in between but it was just time you know
01:31:15
with grandkids you know how to spell love to your kids t same for the grandkids so just you know and for a dal
01:31:21
who I'd taken up so much of her time over 40 years and we've been together
01:31:24
you know we've been married for 40 years it was just and my I just want to be at
01:31:28
home I'm happy I'm happy at home go to our beach house, work around home, play
01:31:32
with the grandkids, you know, it's it's simple, but there's just so much reward
01:31:36
out of that. Jeez, why beach must be like a hot bed of ex all blacks. It is. It is. It's a real hot Gatlin's got a
01:31:42
place there, doesn't he? Getty's had a place there. Smithy lives there, right?
01:31:46
Mills has got a place there. Graham Pervvis has brought not that long ago, but Pervy's actually a valley boy by
01:31:52
lives in Wellington, but a Tims Valley Boy by by birth. Um um I've seen uh who
01:31:57
else is around there now? Um get I mean Kevin Schuler was there for a while not there anymore. Um Jeff Hines has got a
01:32:05
place there. Remember him played for Wetto. Um All Black at age 19 from number seven. Hines is there. Um there's
01:32:12
a great little bar there um that Bryce Beavenon who's a former um Oakland player and varsity player who's um was a
01:32:19
prop and Bryce's done various things but he's just set up a little bar in the
01:32:24
main street um and it hums. It absolutely harms. And Brycy just turns up to work in jandles, shorts, t-shirt,
01:32:32
and an apron. Um, spends probably more time drinking with the patrons. And you you just got a bit of chalkboard on the
01:32:38
bar and your your bloody your tabs there. You chalk it up. Oh, that'll be 50 bucks. I mean, it's it's hilarious.
01:32:44
It's absolutely But we all we all But often you've seen I've been in there,
01:32:48
you know, with JK Smithy, Joe, Jeff Hines, me, Millsy, all in the bar together. It's just Oh, I tell you who's
01:32:55
Bryce Lawrence, the former referee's got a place there. Uh Stevie Dolman. So, um
01:32:59
the the not Stevie Dolman. Um James Dolman, the referee, right? He's got a place. Well, his parents got a
01:33:07
place there. So, it's not just the players. There's some some color referees got places there, too. Good.
01:33:13
That's good. That's a great great place. Hey, so in in 1994, you were on I I
01:33:18
watched this the other day on um there's a website called NZ on screen. Um, you
01:33:22
were on the greatest reality show of all time, This Is Your Life. Um, yeah. When
01:33:28
was the last time you watched that? Uh, just recently, actually. Did you? Why? Because, um, um, we' had lunch in the
01:33:35
December. Dave Morrison and I with with Lorraine, you know, um, Marty's partner.
01:33:40
Um, and we we try and catch up with Lorraine at least a couple of times a year. um hadn't always worked, but um
01:33:47
we'd got together at lunch and when um within a day of that, Lraine just sent a
01:33:51
link through. So that's and cuz Marty was was part of that as well. So I just
01:33:58
clicked the phone and Adele and I we just sat we sat on the couch and watched it. I hadn't I I don't think I'd
01:34:04
rewatched it. I can remember one Christmas we had a lot of people around, my family around and some others, and
01:34:10
this is in the VHS days. Um and Nadal had um um put um the VHS on. I don't know how this happened. The kids might
01:34:18
have been funnering through and found the tape and plucked it on. And there was a lot of people who hadn't seen it.
01:34:23
And by this I mean there was probably 15 or 16 people at our place. And the these
01:34:28
kids they just and a lot of them kids just sat down and watched it because they they hadn't seen it. They didn't
01:34:32
really know about it. So which was nice, right? It's a nice memory to have, you
01:34:36
know, big surprise. Um um but yeah, a privilege to to be to be recognized that way. Yeah. And it's um I mean you're one
01:34:45
of an elect group of New Zealanders that got to be a guest on that show. It's
01:34:48
like due to costs involved and other logistics. It's never going to happen again, but it's a wonderful format of a
01:34:53
show. Did you Was it honestly a surprise? Yeah, for me it was. How How can you I had no idea. I honestly had it
01:35:00
was Well, so as I understand it, there's a lot goes on behind the scenes, right?
01:35:05
cuz they need um they need um my you know need information from people. So a lot of people get talked about and they
01:35:13
they are sworn to secrecy. Adele was obviously talked to and she was sworn to secrecy. Um I mean and I remember this
01:35:20
now but at the time an ad had come on TV about it and and and Adele would be saying to Ryan um change your channel,
01:35:27
change your channel. And now it sort of I should have worked it out but I didn't
01:35:31
at the time. So Ryan Ryan was in on it, but as a four-year-old, it's like I know
01:35:34
what was it, 94, four, seven, seveny old, right? Um, how do you do this? Um Um, Adele's mom
01:35:43
and dad knew about it because they were initially going to look after the kids while Adele was on stage. So all of it
01:35:47
was all Clanderstein and I knew nothing. I genuinely knew nothing. So when Bob Parker came and stood beside me was a
01:35:54
big surprise cuz I just thought it was a rubby function to honor, you know, a good or all those guys that got
01:36:00
together. But there wasn't there was something else sitting behind it. Do you
01:36:03
still have the book? The actual This is your life. Yeah, I don't I will have it
01:36:07
because I've got a lot of that at home. It'll be tucked away somewhere. It
01:36:10
doesn't have front and center. I don't It's not how generally our household
01:36:13
works, but it's tucked in there somewhere. Yeah, I can get that about the the household. You mentioned
01:36:18
something before about Adele not letting you hang up. I think she'd be more relaxed about it now, but she didn't
01:36:22
want necessarily this taken up, right? But yeah, we have talked more recently about doing it, but I probably won't get
01:36:28
round to it. I'm probably just happy where it is. And you know, I think in time that'll be a handme-down that maybe
01:36:34
it'll be more the grandkids will will like it more that when they're at at an
01:36:37
age where they can perhaps reconcile this be more important to them. Yeah. You also your memories they generally
01:36:43
sit in here, don't they? Yeah. Well, here and here. Um and then the um the MBE in 1995,
01:36:50
member of British Empire. Yeah. It was a huge honor. Yeah. Huge honor. Yeah. um you know um get a you get a letter
01:36:56
asking someone obviously work behind the scenes to nominate you and you go through a process and lucky and know I
01:37:03
didn't know about any of that you just get a letter that you've been nominated
01:37:05
and you know do you accept and then you do you accept and then you get then you go to you know and then um um the
01:37:12
ceremony at government house down in Wellington so we went down my mother came down as well as Adele so that was a
01:37:17
really neat time another neat time that happened is my father-in-law the late MV
01:37:21
Wallace also got it um he's been passed for a while now, but MV wasn't well
01:37:26
enough at the time when it happened. So, we held a function at our home and the governor general came. Sylvia Cartrite
01:37:31
came to our home um and um MV got his ceremony done at home with all a lot of his old cricket mates and friends and
01:37:40
cousins and our family was a really neat I can't remember the year exactly, but
01:37:44
it was while MV was still alive, but just not well enough healthwise to actually get on a plane and go to
01:37:49
Wellington. Yeah. Did those did those things in '94 and '95 so this is your life and then
01:37:54
the MBA did that sort of like remove the sting from a couple of years earlier the
01:37:59
sting had gone I mean not even thinking about that you know I mean that's you
01:38:03
know um as I said in the start when you play play oh it's like a lot of things
01:38:09
in life right but you I mean it's it's ups and downs it's not always up you're
01:38:12
going to have downs I had periods where it wasn't so good and but more periods
01:38:16
where it was good so um um but that because you're not competing anymore. That's it does go and you you don't
01:38:24
forget but you just park them away and you know I guess you choose not to bloom and remember unless someone like you
01:38:29
brings them up but anyway sorry. Yeah. So then um Jeez. Yeah. You've been so generous with your time.
01:38:36
I just turned the air con on and No problem. How you going? You right? Yeah. Good. Do you enjoy reflecting or just on
01:38:41
some aspects of it and not some aspects of it or I don't mind having a yard.
01:38:45
Right. It's bloody great. You're a dream guest for me. Well, we don't get we're
01:38:48
at an age now where we don't get this opportunity very often. So, um I mean it's not it's not this is the only I
01:38:54
don't even class this as media. We were talking before we did we did this that
01:38:58
um I just don't engage anymore because it's other people's turn and you know um
01:39:03
the world we live in, you know, why why would you put yourself at risk now because just the way it is. Um you know,
01:39:09
particularly if you've got a strong opinion, you're going to get, you know,
01:39:12
you're going to get a whole lot of people who, you know, want to lop your head off here. Um but this is good
01:39:17
because it's long form and it's just a yarn, right? and and it generally is
01:39:20
reminiscing which is cuz it's not we don't don't it's not how we live you
01:39:24
know we live in the present with family and work and you know um yeah other opportunities we might get you know like
01:39:30
D and I going to travel to see Ryan play occasionally and that sort of stuff it's
01:39:34
all part so the other stuff just sort of gets gets parked up but it's part of
01:39:38
your history so it's there and very occasionally you get the get the chance to have a yarn about it. Yeah. Yes. So
01:39:44
after playing you you you dabbled in coaching for a bit eh? Yeah. That was quite successful, right? Assistant
01:39:49
coach. You almost Did you roll your eyes then or No, it was Yeah, I didn't really
01:39:53
I didn't I fell in I didn't want to coach, right? Um I didn't because it was
01:39:58
not something I chose. I I was running a business and you know, I'd chosen to
01:40:00
stop because Ryan was six and I need to be around and I was running a business and it was time for the All Blacks,
01:40:05
right? And I needed to be at home more. So, there was a number of factors that went into my retirement decision at the
01:40:09
end of 1993. Um but it was just um what was the question again? Oh, just touching upon your coaching. So you
01:40:18
coach. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So So yeah, so what? Yeah, I started with Oakland in 1999 coaching. So I'd stopped playing
01:40:26
not that long. Um but I um Oakland was seeking a new coach. Um and I was rung by the CEO and asked to apply. Hadn't
01:40:34
even thought about it, but I was I running a business and thought I this will take a bit of time, but I can make
01:40:38
the time and this team's struggling and it's a team I love cuz I', you know, had
01:40:42
a lot of success with it. And you know, Ego says, "Yeah, I think I can help." So
01:40:45
I put my name for went to an interview process thought the interview had gone pretty well and then got run by the CEO
01:40:50
and said oh would you consider being assistant coach? I said well it's not the job I applied for. I said who's a
01:40:54
head coach? He said a guy called Wayne Peac. I knew Wayne not very well. I said well before I commit I need to talk to
01:41:00
Wayne because I need to understand how we're going to gel. So it became very
01:41:03
apparent um that it was going to work. So Wayne and I got together and you know we had the champ we won the championship
01:41:09
in 1999 first year together. We had a good side though. We had a lot of experienced
01:41:14
guys. So I think we played that we we played off that pretty well. You know 2000 and 2001 we struggled but made the
01:41:22
semi-finals each year but got beaten in the semi-finals as we started to have to
01:41:25
rebuild a little bit and then a fellow called Henry all of a sudden became available and um come back from Wales
01:41:31
and wanted wanted a job and wanted to help and um Wayne was you know never felt threatened by someone just said we
01:41:38
you know he was asked and yep absolutely we can use this man. We won the championship in 2002 and 2003. Would we
01:41:44
have won it without Graeme? Don't know, you know. But did we win it with him?
01:41:47
Yes, we did. Right. So, um, no doubt that was the pedigree of the man and how good he was. But, yeah. So, you know,
01:41:52
three years out of five, we won championships. So, it wasn't bad. In between that had a year with the Blues
01:41:56
and 2002. And I wasn't really I wasn't um NPC Oakland was a team I love. The Blues
01:42:03
wasn't I never played for the Blues even though it was our region. So it wasn't
01:42:07
that, you know, that didn't motivate me and it was just and that was a rugby
01:42:12
circus on the road. That's the way I thought of it. The NPC get home a lot. It was a lot less demanding. You know,
01:42:17
at that time you're going to have to be committed for seven months of the year.
01:42:21
But Rain encouraged me to apply for um an assistant coach's role and just said,
01:42:26
"You just got to show you're ambitious." And I said, "Well, I don't really want
01:42:28
to do it." He said, "Well, you just got to show you won't get it." Well, I got
01:42:30
it cuz Peter Sloan said, "Foxy, I want you." Oh, what can I do? I applied, but
01:42:35
I couldn't say no. I'm like Sloan is a good I was a good man and a good coach,
01:42:39
you know, and it was like but you know um I um I just it was too hard, right? Too
01:42:48
demanding on the family and all of that. So it was just like I told Sloan at the
01:42:53
end of it, this is, you know, it's not you mate, it's not the team, it's
01:42:56
nothing. It's just from a lifestyle point of view, this just doesn't work.
01:42:59
And um so I stepped aside and one of the guys who took my role was Graeme Henry the next year and they won it in 20 2003
01:43:07
you know so I I didn't I didn't want to go coaching I sort of got fell into it
01:43:11
got asked um wanted to help um but it was relatively shortlived and when I gave it up it was in I remember walking
01:43:17
with Graeme Henry we were I'm pretty sure we were playing Northland in 2003 on Eden Park morning walkth through on
01:43:23
Saturday and I was walking out of the changing room onto the field with Ted. I said to Ted, I said, "Um, mate, I'm
01:43:29
going to I'm giving this up." And he said, "Um, doesn't surprise me."
01:43:35
I thought not the answer. I thought I thought, you know, I thought he'd say,
01:43:39
you know, why do you want to do that? Um, but he said, no, it doesn't surprise
01:43:42
me. I said, why do you say that, Ted? He said, "My experience is that the guys
01:43:46
who played at a high level like you did and when and go where you've got control
01:43:51
and then go coaching where at times you sit up there in the box and you don't
01:43:54
have control, you've done everything you can, but there's not much you can do
01:43:57
from that point. It's a real struggle cuz you your influence is more as a player on the field." He was dead right.
01:44:03
I I struggle with that emotion. I I understood the emotional roller coaster, but I struggled it where I couldn't be
01:44:08
in the middle of it trying to influence it. You'd say as a coach you can, but
01:44:11
you do everything that you believe is right to prepare your team. Go and sit in the box and you'd sit there suddenly
01:44:16
think think what the f is going on. We didn't train this during the week. And I
01:44:20
just I struggled with that and and look, the time was too too much. Anyway, it was time it was just time to go. Are you
01:44:26
are you Some might say uh you're a control freak. Uh well, yeah, maybe maybe my my wife
01:44:34
would probably suggest that sometimes, but um no. Um, I mean, I'm more a perfectionist and a control freak, I
01:44:41
think. You know, I sort of maybe I have a certain way of doing things and I expect everything to be done that way
01:44:47
around, you know, um, and that and the outcome you get the outcome. Well, you don't always get the outcome you want as
01:44:53
I've talked about numerous times. So, and I just I needed to get off the emotional roller coaster and in life
01:44:58
that was too hard, you know. I like to live life just drifting along a little hill in a valley rather than a mountain
01:45:04
in the canyon, you know. So, um, yeah, it was just, yeah, time to get off the roller coaster. Did you coach Jonah over
01:45:10
that time at all? No. No. Jonah started in '94, right? Um, yeah. God, he was amazing. E, I
01:45:18
every time anyone that has anything to do with rugies on the podcast, I ask him about Jonah just in case there's a story
01:45:22
there. I I don't have a story with Jonah other than, you know, when you find out
01:45:26
his medical history um, and think about how how that hindered him, but how good he was with it. Imagine what it would
01:45:34
have been like if he was completely healthy. Frig, that would have been scary. Yeah. Like unbelievably scary.
01:45:39
How good he could He was great anyway. There was more in him if he if his health was 100% which it wasn't. Wow.
01:45:46
Think about that. Yeah. For such a small part of his career, he was firing on all
01:45:50
cylinders. E Well, I don't know that he ever fired on all cylinders. I think the
01:45:53
health thing was pretty evident from the start. um but kept from us because John
01:45:57
Major was his doctor who you know who who looked after Jonah and you know the medical ethics determined privacy and
01:46:04
and and Doc honored that. Um but yeah, you find out all these years later about how much Jonah was hampered by it and
01:46:10
but how good he was with it. Well, it's mindboggling how good he ultimately could have been. Doc Mayheu, there's
01:46:15
another one we lost recently. I know. Too many. Too young. 70. Far too young. Yeah. Um on then your next biggest role
01:46:22
was the um selector. You were a selector from like 2012 for like 10 years uh to the middle of 2022 11 and a half years.
01:46:29
That's a that's a long stint. You obviously enjoyed it and yeah I did. I
01:46:32
mean it was again not something I was looking just came out of the blue again. Still remember exactly where I was when
01:46:36
Steve rang me as he was applying for the All Black job and and just saying you know Foxy Shag and I you know I knew
01:46:42
Steven not a hell of a well. Not bad impression by the way. Um and he just said mate I'd love you to be an all
01:46:48
black selector independent all black selector. And I was just blown away because not a phone call I expected.
01:46:54
Anyway, we just I went home and asked Adele and she said, "Well, you know, you
01:46:57
love this team, don't you?" And I said, "I do." And she said, "Well, way you
01:47:00
go." Um, and I had a real belief in Steve. Um, you know, what Graeme had told me and that there was a a real
01:47:07
belief. And anyway, um, I fell into it. Um, was, you know, sort of had eight years with him, you know, winning a
01:47:14
World Cup in 2015, you know, getting beaten in a semi-final in 2019. So, it sort of mirrored my career in a way. Um
01:47:19
and then you know I was stepping away um after Japan because it was just time the
01:47:24
team needed new blood and um I thought they needed new blood and and that but you know Fos um Fos rang me
01:47:30
when he was a preferred candidate and I'd told Fos that you know he'd asked me
01:47:34
if I get the job mate you know would you come there I said no mate but it's not
01:47:37
about you it's just about where I'm at in life and I think the team needs a
01:47:41
change and anyway um Fos ry and said mate um I'm the preferred candidate and
01:47:46
I need your help for a year cuz he wanted Joe Smith and you discussion and Joe were fruitful in terms of Joe would
01:47:51
be available at some point. We thought it would only be a year. Well, it turned into two and a half and Fos just didn't
01:47:56
want to put he wanted he believed in the independence of a select. He just didn't
01:48:00
want to put someone else in for a year and then when Joe comes on just a guy have a year and get so it was like we
01:48:05
have some continuity and I love Foster bits good man. Um, and so I just I I carried on until finally he got Joe and
01:48:14
what a difference Joe made, you know, as a man he wanted all the way through and
01:48:17
and and um anyway um nearly won a World Cup. Should have won a World Cup. Yeah. Well, as a man that's played played so
01:48:25
much rugby at the top level and then, you know, been involved in coaching for a little bit and then selecting like can
01:48:30
how do you watch a game now? Like I don't watch much. No. No. I mean, you watch it and enjoy it or if you watch it
01:48:36
again. Yeah. And I and I mean I I get um uh you get I get um um uh passionate about the teams I you know that mean
01:48:44
more to me. Um and you say you ride that high and low and get frustrated when things aren't going right. What's that
01:48:49
like All Blacks All? Yeah. Yeah. Blues, right? Um but I can watch you and I learned with the All Blacks as you watch
01:48:55
dispassionately. So even the team you support you just you know when you're in
01:48:59
that role you've got to be completely neutral and dispassionate. So I'd learned how to I think do that pretty
01:49:04
well. But I don't I don't watch enough a lot now. One, I don't have much control
01:49:08
of the TV remote at home. But um but you know, it's just it's not that I don't
01:49:12
care and I don't love it and and that I just I don't want my time taken up by
01:49:16
it. You know, yes, when the All Blacks play, I'll certainly be watching live.
01:49:19
Will I go to the test? Maybe. You know, I get invited along a bit now. I don't
01:49:23
go. I live a long way out of town, a place called Beachland. So, you know, that in itself is a mission. You know,
01:49:29
it's it's it's a good half day by the time we, you know, leave and go and turn
01:49:33
around doing anything. It's just I I'm a homebody now. I'm happy to be home. You
01:49:37
know, Adele doesn't want to come anyway. So I don't, you know, otherwise leaving
01:49:40
her on her own. Um so go we'll go down to a mate's place and watch a game, have
01:49:45
have a have a bourbon or a whiskey or a rum, you know. So um you know, so again,
01:49:49
I'm not much of a theater go now, but after 40 years of the game taking up a
01:49:54
lot of time, um my choice to take that time, too, by the way. Um I'm just, you
01:49:59
know, I'm I'm stepping back. Yeah. And you seem happy and I'm happy.
01:50:04
Yeah. Yeah. Very. I mean everything. Do I have regrets or anything? Regrets? Yeah. You probably have a few. Um, can I
01:50:11
change them though? So there's no point dwelling on them. Um, what would what
01:50:15
would they be if you had to cherry? You don't want to go there? No, not really.
01:50:18
I mean I look I was you know I I I guess you know the back end of my career I mean I was always demanding of myself
01:50:25
and so the way the teams we played and we were demanding of each of each other. I mean, people would still laugh with
01:50:31
the way and some of the names I mentioned earlier, the way we tr we pushed each other, like it it was it's
01:50:38
like these guys aren't friends. Like, we were seriously brutal. Um, but when we
01:50:44
walked off the white paint, it stopped. So, people couldn't never figure that
01:50:48
out. It was always about getting better. And so, I became, you know, I was part of that group being very demanding. And
01:50:54
I guess some other players that came in from time to time, you know, didn't react as well to that. Um, I just wasn't
01:51:02
probably wasn't emotionally aware enough to understand it. Or maybe one of my
01:51:05
mates didn't say to me, "Hey, mate, you know, well, that guy, you can't do that.
01:51:09
You got to be a little softer with him." I just probably didn't recognize it
01:51:12
because I was a little bit more black and white. So, if I have some regrets, it was be it would be around just maybe
01:51:18
being a little bit too demanding. Um um I think at the times of players we work with we help make better um but um and
01:51:27
look those players um there's only one or two of them I don't you know when I
01:51:31
bump into them we never talk about things like that but if I have and I'm not going to name names but probably
01:51:36
that's the one thing I think back because the number one rule of management is to treat people properly.
01:51:40
Now, while I wasn't management, I was playing and maybe my motive was right to
01:51:45
help push them to get better so the team gets better. Maybe the way I went about
01:51:49
it was just okay, didn't recognize that you can't treat everyone the same.
01:51:53
Whereas the environment I grew up in, that's what we did. That's what we did.
01:51:56
We didn't spend that much time together, so we just that's the way and but we
01:51:59
were great mates. We could let that go. Maybe some players found that a little bit harder to let go than others. So,
01:52:05
again, not litigating names. It was probably the one thing I think would I do that a bit differently? probably.
01:52:10
Well, I think I think that's a as a man in his 60s, I think that's a nice regret
01:52:13
to have because it means you've evolved and you know, you've maybe softened a
01:52:16
bit or changed as a person. Yeah. Well, I didn't I didn't learn that the number
01:52:20
one rule of management is to treat people properly until much later when I Graeme Henry talk about it um you know
01:52:26
at a speech I was sitting at and he spoke this I thought actually that resonates. So, what's your relationship
01:52:30
with vulnerability like now? Like there's been a couple of points on the podcast where you've got emotional
01:52:34
talking about um yeah the late Martin Crowe, but have you got like a good inner circle of friends and some people
01:52:39
you can talk to about about serious stuff? Um yep. Let your walls down. Uh yep. But I don't I mean generally I'm
01:52:46
very satisfied with where I'm at. So I don't those conversations don't happen.
01:52:51
But I know you know I know Adele's sort of you know at times might have been
01:52:56
worried about you're a bit shortteered. um you know you're a bit stressed um what's going on
01:53:03
and I'm sort of not that keen to talk about it but she she has rung JK a couple of times and then I'll get my
01:53:09
mate call me you okay buddy n I've probably had that a couple of times to be honest so it's not it's not really
01:53:15
but that's you know but we have you know when when when um things happen in people's lives the
01:53:22
good things we all yep well done bud you know grandkids ringing congratulation or
01:53:27
achievement or something but at At the same time when something happens because we're at the time of life where deaths
01:53:32
are happening around us of family members and they're all people we knew we're all in touch with each other. Um
01:53:38
so I mean I at the moment I you know life for me is just trundling along. It's not even hills and valleys now.
01:53:45
It's a nice little bling nice little flat plane with a little little bloody little hump you got to go down and up.
01:53:50
Um so yeah just yeah I mean I'm again I'm you know I think I'm fortunate you
01:53:56
know got a good family around me. made a very good choice in terms of who I partner with for life. I'd like to think
01:54:02
Adele made a good choice, too, but that's for her to judge. Um, get her on. Got, you know, good good mates, good
01:54:08
parental support. We got, you know, in in our little community in Beach has got good mates in Beachlands. Um, so yeah,
01:54:13
just I said, you know, life's life's good. Yeah, it's neat like seeing this
01:54:18
um this book, The Game, the Gold, which came out, you know, in the early 90s and
01:54:21
the photos of Adele in the way that she talks about you and then watching her on
01:54:25
the, you know, the the episode of This Is Your Life. Yeah, you married right. Hey, you did good. I I think it was one
01:54:31
of the most important decisions you make in your life to be honest. We don't
01:54:34
always get that right either. Um but you know, um we you know, I'd like to think
01:54:39
we're very happily married. We've raised a good family, got you, as I said, got
01:54:42
grandkids. All the family's doing well. So, you know, um they've got good
01:54:47
support networks and friends around them and you know, my daughter's deeply involved in the community there and the,
01:54:51
you know, the local play center and and that sort of thing. So, yeah, it's just
01:54:56
um life's good. What What are you most afraid of at this stage of life? Missing
01:55:00
out. Um so, um and so this is about death because happens to us all, you know, we
01:55:08
all have a time on this earth and eventually I mean, I hope I got a lot of time left and I'm not worried about
01:55:12
death. I'm worried about missing out. Yeah. The FOMO. Yeah. The the the kids,
01:55:16
the grandkids. I'd love to see, you know, the um the grandkids grow and blossom and start playing sport and, you
01:55:24
know, if we're lucky enough to be, you know, still around when they get married, all of those things, you know,
01:55:29
that that's what I guess I'm not not so much afraid. I'd be sad to miss it. Not
01:55:33
so much afraid to miss it. Yeah. Um because at the end of the day, I guess, you know, I'm a bit of fatalist around
01:55:39
this when you know death is final and you don't know about it. That's what's
01:55:44
left behind. You don't you're not aware of because they're dealing with it, but
01:55:48
the one who's died is not here anymore. Um so you you see that enough and so you
01:55:53
say, well, that's the bit you'd be sad about and sad about missing out more
01:55:56
time. But you know, we all don't have we all have a length we'll be here and
01:56:01
that'll be determined at some stage in the future. That's the That's the
01:56:04
certainty for all of us, eh? Like we're all going to go and um when birth, death, and taxes.
01:56:10
Oh, taxes. A lot of taxes. A lot of taxes. But you never know. You never know when your time's up. But for most
01:56:16
of us, it's a lot less than what we want. That's it. Yeah, I guess. So, yeah. Yeah, I guess. So, I I suppose
01:56:22
it's part of it depends on what your health's like towards the end. Cuz if
01:56:24
you're getting to a point where, you know, life's not good, you know, I know,
01:56:28
you know, maybe your choice would be if I had a choice, I'd like, you know, to
01:56:32
not have to suffer this anymore, you know, if you're healthy enough, well and
01:56:36
good. But we again, um, you know, that's in the future. We don't know how all
01:56:40
that's going to the way I'm feeling at the moment. God, knees and bling wrists
01:56:44
and I'm bloody. Yeah. You want to be like Sir Gra Henry like I see him marching around him and Ray when they go
01:56:51
for like brisk 10 km walk. Yeah, I walk. I mean, I walk the dogs six mornings a week, right? That's part of my routine.
01:56:56
Get out of bed and walk the dogs, right, for an hour, nearly an hour each day, but I got a knee replacement that's due
01:57:01
to go again. I'm getting that done in July. So, it'll set me back for a bit,
01:57:03
but it'll actually push me forward when I get through the rehab because at the
01:57:06
moment it's a bit niggly and slowing me down and um can't do quite what I want to do, but
01:57:12
you know, I'll get that fixed soon. You you getting still get recognized a bit
01:57:15
in public? What do people talk to you about? They talk to you about the old rugby stuff or about Ryan. Yeah. Okay.
01:57:19
Yeah. Which is cool. I love that. Um do Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, if I'm
01:57:24
walking the supermarket aisle and the All Blacks have just played a test, you might get someone who who will stop you
01:57:28
or someone you'll bump into, right? Um, but it's more about if you know about
01:57:33
about Ryan, which is which is great. That's so cool. And what about legacy? Is that something you think about at
01:57:38
all? Like how you want to be remembered? Um, how would I want to be remembered? Um,
01:57:45
look, I just I I mean, the rugby side doesn't bother me. It's actually I want
01:57:49
to make sure that that um when you're not here from a family point of view that you remembered you know I'm a good
01:57:55
husband, I'm a good dad, I'm a good granddad that the family will remember
01:58:00
you with great fondness because you gave time and you cared and you gave love and
01:58:05
that's the legacy for me. You know, the sport thing, yeah, nice. But I'm not,
01:58:10
you know, if if the family had blown up and I had rugby, I'd be terribly sad. As I said,
01:58:17
I'm happy. Um, you know, life's good and that's because, right, you know, because
01:58:22
of family um not because of the rugby. I reckon that's a great place to end it.
01:58:30
It's um Yeah, that's No, that's wonderful. That's really profound. You
01:58:34
know what I like about about this cuz we didn't we didn't prepare anything. So, I
01:58:38
had no heads up on the questions. So, it becomes you just go where you want to go. That's what I like about long form
01:58:43
and it doesn't have to be on a particular topic. And so you get surprised with questions that I don't I
01:58:48
mean couple of the lines at the end I don't think I've ever been asked before.
01:58:52
So it makes you think about what's important. Yeah. Okay. Well there's another
01:59:00
I've been cutting some as we go. Like there's there's a lot that we didn't
01:59:03
talk about the rugby stuff like Oakland's incredible unbeaten run and but on the big scheme of things as
01:59:09
you've just said none of that's sort of really important. There's um there's
01:59:12
there's there's one thing that I do ask a lot of my guests towards the end. So I
01:59:15
had this guy I don't expect you to know the name this I had this guy Doo Allen
01:59:18
on the podcast part of team New Zealand um multisport races done some adventure races with Richie Mccor. Yes. Okay.
01:59:24
Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. And he he said they um during one
01:59:27
of those um crazy adventure races in the middle of the night. Richie came up with
01:59:31
like a game for all the teammates to play and it was um what three words would you like Oh yeah, I know this
01:59:36
game. It's not a game. It's like yeah I know this game. what what three words
01:59:39
would you like your friends or family to be saying at at your funeral? And I I've
01:59:43
asked this to a lot of guests and I've thought about it more and more over the
01:59:45
time. And it's um it's actually a good way to reverse engineer your life
01:59:48
because if you know what those words are, then you can start living in a way that's going to increase the chance.
01:59:52
This is a this is a question that Steve used to use when you when trying to help a player um you'd say,
01:59:59
well, how this is about how your peers. So, if the player had three words, what three words do you think they would use?
02:00:04
So, how would you describe yourself in three words? And then what what do you think your peers would say? It's an
02:00:09
interesting thing to get alignment, right? Because that's about self-awareness. Yes. Because if it's not
02:00:13
aligned, you're not you don't have your self-awareness about about what your
02:00:16
peers think. So that's sort of very strongly used in in an all black environment. Um and you've just hit me
02:00:21
with this. I haven't actually I haven't actually really thought about it, but um
02:00:25
you know, I mean um the one of the words would be loyal, right? I'd like to be
02:00:31
I'd like to think that I'm loyal to to friends and family. um um uh loyal,
02:00:38
caring probably mirrors a little bit. Um look, and in the end of the day, another
02:00:45
word that probably a lot of my my contempt would say is driven. Mhm. Right. Um I mean um I remember watching
02:00:54
Richie's um chasing great and I when I'm watching LA um the last dance the Jordan
02:01:00
thing there's one word that resonates with these guys cuz this is again we talked earlier about what sets the very
02:01:06
best apart well there is a drive in them that is it is at a different level than
02:01:12
the rest and Richie McCall had that cuz that's a for me is right and I remember
02:01:18
in the um watching the Jordan thing And he was asked a similar question and I said to my wife, I know the word he's
02:01:25
going to use. He's going to say driven. And look, within about three words, three third word of the sentence, the
02:01:30
word driven came out cuz you could see it in him. And I'd like to think that
02:01:34
that that I'm driven, but driven wasn't just about around sport, you know, was
02:01:38
around, you know, you build you build a business to help, you got to work, you got to earn a crust, you got to look
02:01:42
after your family. um and and driven around family to you know make sure you you know you you you you you
02:01:51
have a good family, you know, you you're driven to be do the good things around
02:01:55
family life to raise a good family to set the right boundaries and values and all of that sort of thing. Um so yeah,
02:02:01
probably you know loyal, caring and driven. Three great words. Yeah. Driven to be the best version of yourself.
02:02:06
Yeah. And as I said, it's not just about the rate. It wasn't just about the about
02:02:09
the sport. Yeah. Yeah. Great words. Are you proud of yourself? Yeah. And I'm
02:02:17
proud of what's around me. Um, you know, especially family, but proud of proud of
02:02:22
mates, good mates, you know, proud of what I achieved in footy. Proud of what um I've achieved. I've been in the
02:02:28
business I'm in. It's morphed a little bit through some shareholding changes
02:02:30
and and a merger, but I started in January 1986 and I'm still in the same business more or less. So again, I'm
02:02:37
proud of we've built something that um you know um has been good for my family,
02:02:43
but good, you know, I'd like to think good for the employees that work for us
02:02:45
and look looks after their family. You know, proud proud of um proud of um you know, the the family that's around me
02:02:53
that um you know, I've been part of helping create and um you know, I think that you know, family life is good.
02:03:00
Awesome. By the way, I don't think Brian's sitting around waiting for an
02:03:03
inheritance. I think he's all right. might be wanting one from him. No, no. I
02:03:08
mean, look at the end of the day, the money's a byproduct of success, isn't
02:03:11
it? But, um, you know, he's doing he's doing well, but you know, we were in the
02:03:15
US recently. The market's enormous. Like, and that's, you know, I I heard
02:03:20
Greg Forin talk about it on an interview um recently with um and I think it was with Mike Hosking, I think. I can't
02:03:28
quite remember, but talked about, you know, the he ran Walmart now running in New Zealand. big businesses. But the
02:03:35
difference is and he talked about this is what's one of what's our biggest
02:03:38
challenge? Scale or lack of it. It's a real challenge here. You know, there's
02:03:42
just we like being a small little country, but it creates some enormous challenges because we have a lack of
02:03:46
scale. And when you go to America and see the scale of 350 million vers 5 million and the and the market that that
02:03:53
it's in and the value it generates out of media, that's why these guys have all
02:03:56
these big salaries and play for big money because they're just in a market that just it's just not. And it is what
02:04:02
it is. But you know um scale a lack of scale is a real challenge for this country.
02:04:08
Hey, I really appreciate you being here today. Oh, my pleasure. Been fun. It's
02:04:12
been Yeah. Has it been fun? Yeah, it has been fun. Yeah, you took took me a couple of places I I wasn't expecting,
02:04:18
but that's okay. Oh, what like what was that? No, getting into the family and I
02:04:22
drove that a bit to be fair, but you know, um I knew the Marty Crow thing had come out would come out, so I try and
02:04:27
prepare for that, but it still gets me. Um, and you know, we didn't cover it
02:04:31
that much rugby, which is cool because I'm quite happy for that to be, you know, that's part of history. Can't
02:04:36
change it, consign to, proud of it. Um, but you know, um, I retired in 1993, so that's a long time ago. Well, it's been
02:04:44
a wonderful career and a a wonderful life and I can't thank you enough for coming on the podcast. Actually, I think
02:04:49
this is the first father and son Oh, really? I've had on the the podcast. Yeah. Ryan Grant. Oh, that's nice. I
02:04:55
really appreciate it. You're a great man, Grandpa. Cheers. Cheers, Dom. Thank
02:04:58
you.