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Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

June 29, 2025 / 02:05:15

This episode features former All Black Grant Fox discussing his rugby career, family life, and reflections on personal growth. Key topics include his experiences in the 1987 Rugby World Cup, the challenges faced during the 1991 World Cup, and his relationships with fellow players like Martin Crowe and Richie McCaw.

Grant Fox shares insights about his early life in Taranaki, New Zealand, and his journey to becoming an All Black. He reflects on the camaraderie among players and the importance of loyalty and support within the team. Fox also discusses the impact of media scrutiny on athletes and the emotional toll it can take.

The conversation touches on his transition from player to coach and selector, highlighting the challenges and rewards of those roles. Fox emphasizes the significance of family and the lessons learned throughout his life, including the importance of vulnerability and self-awareness.

Fox expresses pride in his family and the legacy he hopes to leave behind, focusing on being a good husband, father, and grandfather. He shares his thoughts on the evolution of rugby and the changes in the sport over the years.

Overall, this episode provides a candid look at Grant Fox's life, his contributions to rugby, and his values as a person.

TL;DR

Grant Fox discusses his rugby career, family life, and personal growth, reflecting on key moments and relationships in his journey.

Episode

2:05:15

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first.

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Grant Fox, welcome to my podcast. Nice

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to be here, Dom. Mate, it's an honor to

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have you. I've done so much um

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researched. I tracked down this book

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from a secondhand bookshop in in Vicagle

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of all places. That's from a dump bin in

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the bookshop, right? The game, the gold,

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the grant fox. When was the last time

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you saw your book? H I can't remember.

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There is I've got one at home, but that

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was um published in 1992. M and I I

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found this book as well on my bookcase

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at home. Uh Martin Crow Raw, your good

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friend, and you wrote the forward to

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that book. So I've researched um I've

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researched hard. This is going to be a

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great chat. First of all, um where do

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you think your place is in New Zealand

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Rugby? Like do you see yourself as one

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of the goats? No. And I don't I don't

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see a place um that's for other people

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to judge, not for me. Um, you know, I

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was lucky enough to be able to play a

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game I loved and represent my country at

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it and have have a long career, had a

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lot of fun, you achieved a lot. Um, and

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that's still part of my history. I

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can't, you know, you can't rub that out.

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And that's, you know, it's a nice part

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of history to to fall back on and

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remember. Um, but other people will

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judge where where I sit. Um, and that,

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you know, and if you talk to all the

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other players, I think they'll be

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exactly the same. They don't really care

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about that. It's just it's a fascinating

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game other people want to play. um in

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the media ranking and all that sort of

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stuff. Um I'm not interested in in that

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sort of stuff. You know, other people

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can have their judgments for me. Um

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privilege um helped me get where I am

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today. Um but it's just that's just part

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of my life story cuz I I know you're

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from what I've um researched. I know

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you're a bit of a technopobe, which is

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so am I. I'm I call myself a boomer. I'm

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not a boomer, but I've got big boomer

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energy. But um you must be familiar with

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some aspects of AI and chat GPT. I've

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heard of chat GPT. Um, and I've only

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ever used it once and I didn't use it.

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Um, my CEO in Australia asked me to

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write a bio for a new group of investors

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and I don't have a bio, right? So, I'm

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just that's not happening. So, I got him

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a colleague at work to go to chat GPT to

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research and when I read I thought hell

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I was bloody good, wasn't I?

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It was so full of bloody nonsense. But

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to be fair, I used it and cut and pasted

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it because it was a because I just I'm

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not I'm not worried about that stuff.

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But this guy, he was insisting I did it.

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So I used the technology. Only time I've

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used it will never use it again. But it

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was an interesting exercise to go

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through and go, "Okay, where they where

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do they get that from and as I said, it

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painted me a lot better than I ever

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was." So anytime you need an ego

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booster. Yeah, I know. Go to chat GBT.

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So, I typed into chat GPT um you know

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who is the greatest uh all black number

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10 of all time and um uh it came up with

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an answer. It said this is a highly

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debated topic among New Zealand rugby

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fans, but most discussions typically

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include these standouts and um I've got

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five names here. Who do you think who do

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you think they would be? Uh Daniel. Mhm.

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Uh Andrew. Yes. Um God, are you going to

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test my memory here? Um,

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uh, I'm trying to think you played for a

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long time and it So, give me a hint.

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Predates how era. Okay, I'll tell you

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what. You're you're on the list. You're

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on the top five. Okay. So, I'm missing

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You're the oldest on the list. Yeah. Am

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I? I'm the oldest on the list. Okay. So,

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it's more recent. So, you got Mertz,

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Carter, yourself. Yeah. All right. I

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don't I'm not I haven't I haven't been

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in the rugby scene for a while, so I'm

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trying to And my memor is failing. I'm

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trying to remember. You have to help me.

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Okay. Bod, of course, and Richie Manga.

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Oh, of course. Okay. Yeah. Okay. What

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What do you think of that list? It's a

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privilege to be on that list. Um, but

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it's hard to judge the modern day player

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against guys who've in the past because,

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you know, what about some of our greats

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in the past? Um, you know, Douggee

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Bruce, Wayne Smith, um, didn't play as

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many tests as a guy play plays nowadays

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and probably in many ways a whole lot

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less media noise around it, not social

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media, a whole lot of different things.

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So uh and with the the game the game the

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skill set involved in the game now

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hasn't changed since the game was

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amended. You know kick run pass tackle

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in no particular order that's the game

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and how you how you how you you know how

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you get accumulate your points tries and

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penalties and conversions drop goals

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nothing's changed but the structure of

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the game has changed and these guys play

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a lot of testing you know they're

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playing 13 14 15 tests a year now um you

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know when I start when I finished I

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think we got to 10 um but before that it

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was um maybe six or seven. Yeah. Um, and

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in the older days, some years there

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wouldn't be an all black team playing

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test matches, so it's very hard to make

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comparisons.

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You mentioned um Wayne Smith in that in

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that in that breath just before um Sir

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Wayne Smith, the man known as the

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professor. Um I read a story in part of

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my research. Did he clean your boots for

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you once or offer to clean your Yep, he

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did. That's true. Um so Fiji 1984 was my

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first tour. So end of the domestic

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season, I got picked for a short tour to

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Fiji. Um Smithy was the incumbent 10 and

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and I was the new guy picked. Um and on

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my first game um he was not in we

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weren't rooming. Oh, we may have been

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rooming together. I can't quite remember

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but he might have been. He just came

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down and offered to clean my boots. Um

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and that wasn't an uncommon thing for

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players to do to help the new person. So

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an incumbent senior experienced person

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would come along and help induct the new

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guy and just give them every every

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little bit of assistance they could.

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That's the all black way of doing

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things. So So he he was like higher than

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you on the line. Of course he was. cuz

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he was the incumbent. So he was

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absolutely I was the new boy my first

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tour and there there wasn't an official

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test. There was a test against Fiji but

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not not recorded as an official test

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match. Um but I always clean my own

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boots. I had a routine, right? So I

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always wash my laces the night before,

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took them out, wash them all, you know,

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hung them to dry. Um I on match day

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morning, I' i'd use Nugget Nugget, not

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the liquid, the proper one. And I' I'd

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wash and clean my boots and you know,

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because the boots we practice in were

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the boots we played in in those days. um

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because it's was just comfortable to do

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that. Um so I was I so I declined

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smoking only because it was part of my

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routine and I I'd always done that. I

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find that a fascinating story because I

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suppose I always have this perception of

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almost um under the 2025 lens it

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probably could be called sort of like

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bullying or the hierarchy seniority

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thing in the back. Yeah, there is still

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I mean when when look when I they will

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still have a backseat of the bus, right?

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and and and um so there is I mean look

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it's it's a more um uh historical

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hierarchical structure but um it's not

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the way I mean it would have been

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tougher in the old days compared to the

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lens we look at things nowadays right

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but there will still be the senior guys

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down the back of the bus and when you

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you're in the orats long enough and

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luckily I was I graduated eventually at

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the end of my career to the back seat

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which was a was a great privilege but

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the backseat of the bus really was we

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traveled a lot on buses in those days

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they didn't do it so much nowadays Um,

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but it was really an in-house

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disciplinary thing that was just dealt

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with things that were more to do with,

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you know, if a guy had transgressed uh,

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you know, an expected set of behaviors

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perhaps off the field, you answered to

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the back seat. I mean if it was really

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serious it got to management but we

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tried to do a lot of this stuff because

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that's about peer group peer group

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pressure because the judgment of your

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peers is pretty harsh and you know there

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was a a certain um there was a brutality

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is the wrong word but we we were

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brutally honest with each other and that

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that related to anything to do with how

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how the all blacks conducted themselves

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which lent itself into how we played. Um

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and so the backseat had an important

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function but it wasn't above anything

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else. It was just part of um it was just

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part of the culture in those days. It

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still is, but it probably may not

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perform the quite the same function, but

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to some degree a little bit cuz I um

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Christian Cullen on the podcast last

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year and he talked about how he made the

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All Blacks and a lot of the senior guys

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like wouldn't talk to him and then he

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played his first test and I think he's

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got three tries and then he thought,

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"Oh, maybe they'll talk to me now." He

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was still a bit like sort of

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standoffish. He's like, "What do I have

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to do to prove myself?" But the fact

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that you were talking about Smithy like

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offering to clean your boots, it's it

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says a lot. Yeah. But that but that was

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the way it was, you know. I mean, I can

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remember as a senior player when Simon

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Mannis came away to France in 1990 as he

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was young. He's about 18 or 19 Max was.

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And it was, you know, I'd always

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remember what Smithy um had, how he had

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behaved towards me. So that was, you

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know, my job with sign. But you als you

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also don't want to be overbearing. You

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got to be really careful that you don't

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try and model them to you. they've got

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to be their own authentic self. Um, but

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it was just sort of part of, you know,

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of the All Black way of doing things.

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So, um, and I would say that's been

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going on since the All Black started. I

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don't think this is anything new,

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man. I'm so excited to have you here.

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There's so much to talk about. Um, yeah,

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I mean, you you're just a man that's

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seen and done at all when it comes to

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rugby. Do do you have any memorabilia at

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home? Like, have you got a pork room, a

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games room? I have a games room, but

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there's um there's a few photographs up

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on it that we've collected over the

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years that um a lot of them would say

00:09:17

montages of the all black 87 team that

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people did and that was commercial

00:09:20

stuff, but as part of that negotiation

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that Robin did, all the players got one.

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I've got one from Oakland in the Oakland

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Ran Fully Shield era. Um and some other

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um you know, other bits and pieces. Um

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I've got I've got jerseys of every team

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I played against. Um I'm not allowed to

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put them up. Maybe one day, but I've

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I've still got them. They're tucked

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away. Not allowed. No, no. my wife

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didn't well they they'd fill up a fair

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bit of a wall but um I tell you what

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though there's one particular cuz I'm

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not sure anyone else um would have the

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set because some of these teams don't

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exist anymore but I have a set of uh of

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New Zealand representative jerseys that

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go New Zealand school boys um New

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Zealand Colts New Zealand juniors um New

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Zealand universities and the New Zealand

00:10:04

All Blacks. Um not sure I'm not sure the

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varsity team plays anymore. Um, we have

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an under 20's team, so we don't have an

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under 21 and under 23 team, which was

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Colts and juniors. So, that's a

00:10:16

particular set I'm I'm immensely proud

00:10:18

of. What does life look like these days

00:10:20

for Grant Fox? Um, I am still working.

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Um, I run a business called Monster

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Vision. Won't go into the detail, but

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it's um we're deeply involved in in in

00:10:29

sport in this country. Um, you know, a

00:10:31

little bit of community um you know,

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council work, concert work. Um, and you

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know, I'm a father and grandfather um

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with um, you know, apart from Ryan who's

00:10:40

probably more, you know, more widely

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known. We have a a younger we have a

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daughter who's younger than Ryan who

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lives just down the road from us with

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three littleies. It's just a great joy.

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So that's, you know, life and I try and

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be at home on the weekends, work Monday

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to Friday. Um, not too hard and um, try

00:10:55

and get a game of golf in if I can. And

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you go, I play off about five now, I

00:11:00

think. But I haven't played in ages cuz

00:11:02

I had a I've had um I got a niggly knee

00:11:04

and I've just had carpal tunnel surgery.

00:11:05

So I'm falling apart and I've just heard

00:11:08

a rotator cuff. So yeah, life's age

00:11:10

catching up, Dom. Um and I I'm very keen

00:11:13

to get back cuz I enjoy golf for the

00:11:14

social aspect and the competitive to be

00:11:16

honest because a handicap system allows

00:11:18

you to play against people with

00:11:19

different abilities and you can have a

00:11:20

game cuz golf's unique like that. I

00:11:22

don't know any other game where I can

00:11:24

play against someone who's way better or

00:11:25

way worse and at the end of it we could

00:11:27

be all square based on the handicap

00:11:28

system. So it's who's really buying the

00:11:30

beers at the end of the day we play for.

00:11:31

So yeah, it it is fair but you still

00:11:33

know deep down you're getting your ass

00:11:35

kicked by a better player. Oh yeah.

00:11:37

Yeah. But but the golfers understand the

00:11:40

golfers understand how many shots have I

00:11:42

got on this cuz always how how many have

00:11:44

I given you today? You I've got to make

00:11:46

six up before on the next guy. And so

00:11:48

you you consciously know what's going on

00:11:50

because the competitive instinct doesn't

00:11:51

leave you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you still

00:11:54

because I I had your son Ryan on the

00:11:56

podcast a couple of years ago and we we

00:11:57

talked about you and your relationship

00:12:00

with him in quite great detail and he

00:12:02

told a story about the first time that

00:12:04

he beat you in golf and and he said you

00:12:07

didn't talk to him for like a couple of

00:12:08

days afterwards. Yeah, I can't remember

00:12:09

exactly. It happened. There's no doubt

00:12:11

it happened and it probably when he was

00:12:12

about 15 and it would have been the last

00:12:14

time I got near him. Um, and look, I I I

00:12:18

still have a competitive uh fire, but

00:12:21

it's dullled with age, right? Because

00:12:23

I', it's a reality is, and particularly

00:12:25

when it comes to golf, um, or any other,

00:12:27

you know, be it tennis or thing, which I

00:12:29

don't play nowadays, got a bugged wrist,

00:12:30

but um, it's just um, I can't hit the

00:12:33

ball as far, so I can't be as

00:12:35

competitive, right? And you just got to

00:12:36

come to a realization that I can't do

00:12:38

what I used to do, except the aging

00:12:40

process. the handicap system will take

00:12:42

care of that because it'll keep going

00:12:43

out and I can still have a game against

00:12:45

him. You know what? If I play with him

00:12:46

now, which is very rare, I mean, he's

00:12:48

going to give me at least 10 shots.

00:12:50

Maybe probably No, I wish it was nine, I

00:12:53

might beat him, but um no, but but you

00:12:55

know, he's got to play off about a plus

00:12:57

eight and you know, he'll give me five

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or six shots. So, what is that 13 or 14?

00:13:01

So, yeah, it's surreal really from a a

00:13:04

Kiwi perspective. like you I mean you're

00:13:06

too close to it to probably see this but

00:13:08

you know one of the great All Blacks of

00:13:09

all time has a son and the son's now

00:13:11

like in the top 100 or top 50 or

00:13:13

whatever of world golf rankings like

00:13:15

it's it's crazy. So his entire life he

00:13:17

was probably played with the I don't

00:13:19

know if stigma is the word of being

00:13:21

Grant Fox's son and now you're Ryan

00:13:23

Fox's dad. It's quite something quite

00:13:25

poetic about it. Well I mean that's nice

00:13:27

of you to say. I mean I I I mean I

00:13:29

stopped playing rugby when Ryan was six,

00:13:30

right? I was 31 which is young to retire

00:13:32

but I was run it was amid days. I was

00:13:34

running a business and had a young

00:13:36

family and I wanted to be there when

00:13:37

Ryan started. Um because I think you

00:13:39

know um one of the most important things

00:13:41

being a parent is showing up, right? You

00:13:43

got to I mean how do you spell love to

00:13:45

your kids? T I M E. And um so someone

00:13:48

said that to me a long long time ago. My

00:13:50

parents um you know did that with us

00:13:52

growing up on a farm. They were always

00:13:54

took us to sport all the time engaged in

00:13:56

coaching our teams you know. Um, Adele's

00:13:59

parents were the same with, you know,

00:14:01

um, with with, um, Adele and her brother

00:14:03

Greg. So, um, I understand that mindset

00:14:06

and I think it's critically important.

00:14:08

So, for me, retiring for a number of

00:14:11

reasons, but family was was a critical

00:14:12

one to spend time and all you wanted Ry

00:14:15

Ryan probably he he didn't know at that

00:14:17

time. It wasn't until later on when he

00:14:19

started playing at a higher level like

00:14:21

first 15 rugby or first 11 cricket that

00:14:23

there was perhaps a link um that they

00:14:26

said well this is you know this is

00:14:28

bloody Grant Fox's boy now I'm his dad

00:14:31

so that that's completely flipped on its

00:14:33

head which I I like because it means

00:14:34

he's carved carved his own career but

00:14:36

all he did was just you know he chased a

00:14:39

dream you know that's all he did and he

00:14:41

was lucky that um you know at the end of

00:14:42

the day he's achieved that dream because

00:14:44

not everyone gets to do it but I think

00:14:45

setting yourself a goal and striving to

00:14:47

achieve something's really important.

00:14:49

Um, and you know, he he's been able to

00:14:51

do it on a pretty big stage, which is,

00:14:53

you know, which I'm I'm so pleased for

00:14:54

him because I know cuz having played

00:14:57

sport in elite level myself, I know the

00:14:59

work involved, you know, and all the

00:15:00

pressures associated. And Ryan's been

00:15:02

able to deal with all of that um, and

00:15:04

still get to the point he's got to um,

00:15:06

you know, rewarding for him and his

00:15:08

family, but also, you know, for Adele

00:15:09

and I. M are there when you watch him

00:15:12

play like on on TV or in in real life

00:15:14

like are there um parts of you that you

00:15:17

can see in him like if he the way he

00:15:18

acts after he's had a bad shot or

00:15:21

mannerisms and things like that? Oh look

00:15:23

I I can see more of I mean Ry Ryan and I

00:15:28

think in temperament is more like Adele

00:15:29

than me outwardly. I think inwardly he's

00:15:32

more like me. He's just pretty more he's

00:15:34

he's better at hiding it than I am. Um,

00:15:37

so I know deep down he has a fierce

00:15:40

competitive desire. Um, you know, he

00:15:42

wants he wants to do well. Um, doesn't

00:15:45

always happen. Um, I think he's um, and

00:15:49

look, he at times he struggled to deal

00:15:52

with what I'd call frustration from not

00:15:54

getting out of it what he wants, which

00:15:56

is not matching the work he's put in.

00:15:58

Been there, done that, understand that.

00:16:00

Not easy. Um, you know, that's just that

00:16:02

is a hard thing to work your way

00:16:03

through. But, you know, I I think um you

00:16:07

my wife was um a good tennis player. Um

00:16:10

you know, grew up in a sporty family. Um

00:16:12

played hockey at school. Um so, Adele

00:16:16

understands the sporting environment,

00:16:18

having a dad away a lot. Um a dad

00:16:20

involved. Um so, you know, there's a

00:16:23

blend of everything in there that I can

00:16:24

see in Ryan. Yeah. Um should we go back

00:16:28

to the early years? Yep. Okay. So,

00:16:30

you're from um a farm in Tatanaki. uh

00:16:33

born in New Plymouth but but left when

00:16:35

when I was two to um um a Wetto just

00:16:40

outside of Pataradoo. Yeah. Out of Patu.

00:16:43

So a little place called Tiotu which was

00:16:45

Tiotu was um a school in a garage.

00:16:47

That's all it was. Wow. Oh like a tiny

00:16:50

rural school. A tiny rural school and a

00:16:52

garage. That's all it was. So there

00:16:54

wasn't even the first 15. Not enough

00:16:55

kids. No. No. So there wasn't even a

00:16:57

local school there as such that we all

00:16:59

went. There was four primary schools in

00:17:01

PU at the time and I went to one of

00:17:03

those schools and and um this is where

00:17:06

you you built some like makeshift my

00:17:08

father did. Yeah. So I mean I think that

00:17:11

came out of um well my father played

00:17:13

rugby um you know for um Okado where in

00:17:16

the Tanaki and also for Taro Athletic

00:17:18

when we moved to Peteru and you know he

00:17:19

was a South Wata rep so I was sort of

00:17:21

what you call a minor minor union rep.

00:17:23

He was a fullback goal kicker in the old

00:17:25

torpedo life flat style kick with your

00:17:27

toe. Um, so you know, we'd been around a

00:17:29

rugby environment, you know, as little

00:17:32

club rooms after games, all that sort of

00:17:33

stuff. So we were very familiar with,

00:17:35

you know, that's what you did in rural

00:17:36

communities. That's how you how people

00:17:38

put at the tennis club up the road, the

00:17:39

cricket club. My mother played net ball.

00:17:42

So that was all just part of, you know,

00:17:44

the upbringing. Um, but I love kicking a

00:17:47

rubby ball. Always was fascinated by

00:17:49

that. Although we had a soccer ball, I'd

00:17:51

kick it around. And I used to build um

00:17:53

and put on the front lawn two battens

00:17:56

and a bit of 31 a little goalpost and

00:17:57

that's what I'd practice kicking when I

00:17:59

was very young. Um but I think probably

00:18:01

some as I got older and maybe too many

00:18:03

broken windows. The old man decided that

00:18:05

he'd get a couple of big 18t panelized

00:18:07

bloody posts. Um it might have been

00:18:09

taller than that with a with a um uh a

00:18:12

galvanized bloody pipe crossbar. Put it

00:18:14

in the front paddic. Well, there you go.

00:18:15

You won't broke won't break any windows

00:18:17

down here and I had a lot more room. So

00:18:19

that so he built those. And they were

00:18:21

put in the front paddic. Parallels with

00:18:23

you and Dan Carter in that, eh? They had

00:18:25

a paddic out the front with a goal post

00:18:26

in and Yeah. Yeah. was kicking until

00:18:28

dark. Were you one of three three two

00:18:31

younger brothers? Yeah. [ __ ] And Yeah.

00:18:34

Because um me and my brother, we used to

00:18:35

we lived in a residential house in

00:18:37

Palmer North. We played cricket on the

00:18:38

driveway all the time. Glass used to be

00:18:40

so thin. We used to always have a

00:18:42

smashed window in the house. Yeah. No

00:18:44

double glazing either. Not in those

00:18:45

days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I

00:18:48

like I used to really enjoy playing

00:18:49

tennis. played cricket as well, but we

00:18:50

had a big we had a brick house. One of

00:18:52

the walls on the on the as the concrete

00:18:54

driveway came around to where the garage

00:18:56

was a big concrete area. One of the

00:18:58

walls was no windows completely brick.

00:19:00

So that was that was my bloody, you

00:19:01

know, my back wall buddy hidden. I think

00:19:03

used to drive cuz the kitchen was in

00:19:05

behind that. I used to drive my mother

00:19:06

mad. She was trying to cook in the

00:19:07

kitchen. I'm pounding this bloody tennis

00:19:09

ball with a tennis rack or a pad of

00:19:10

tennis bat. But, you know, we just grew

00:19:12

up in that environment, you know. Um um

00:19:14

sport was always a big part of of of you

00:19:17

know, what our family did. So your

00:19:19

parents just send you outside and play

00:19:21

until it's dark and then you come in for

00:19:22

dinner time. Yeah. I mean we had 300

00:19:24

acres to run around on too. So you know

00:19:25

we had motorbikes and Land Rovers and

00:19:27

you know so and at a very young age we

00:19:29

were you know we were we were taught to

00:19:31

drive machinery. Um you know I can

00:19:34

remember my younger brother and I we got

00:19:37

to a stage and I was still at primary

00:19:39

school but I include the intermediate

00:19:41

years cuz that's what it was in those

00:19:42

days. I mean we put a whole paddic of

00:19:44

hay in by ourselves. mowed it, turned

00:19:46

it, bailed it, had some help picking it

00:19:49

up. But he let, you know, a 12-year-old

00:19:51

and a and an 11 year old go and do that

00:19:53

because we would that's what, you know,

00:19:55

God farm kids, farm and kids and

00:19:58

occupational self safety and health

00:20:00

might have a problem with that nowadays,

00:20:02

you know, I was driving a Land Rover at

00:20:03

seven. I mean, that's just what we did

00:20:05

in those days. And I was lucky enough

00:20:06

with, you know, the upbringing was, you

00:20:09

know, um, teach and give responsibility

00:20:11

and let you make mistakes. Don't women

00:20:13

cuddle you and say don't do that, don't

00:20:15

do that. You actually had to learn by

00:20:16

making your own mistakes. Long as it

00:20:18

wasn't going to injure yourself too much

00:20:20

or injure something else or break too

00:20:21

many things or crash Land Rovers or

00:20:24

whatever. That's the that's the

00:20:25

environment we were brought up in. Some

00:20:27

sometimes an injury is a good lesson.

00:20:29

Yes. So So when when you were a kid in

00:20:32

um in the the Wetto Paddock kicking the

00:20:34

ball, who were you who were you

00:20:35

pretending to be? Strange. Well, so when

00:20:38

I when I before the goalpost came up, um

00:20:41

Brian Williams was my idol, which didn't

00:20:43

didn't marry me match with me, I should

00:20:46

say, because, you know, small little

00:20:47

skinny white kid and Beg this big big

00:20:50

big big thigh Polyn.

00:20:53

Yeah. Yeah. Who was, you know, a number

00:20:55

of years older than me, but I just

00:20:56

remember watching him in 1970 and, you

00:20:59

know, on the TV plant in South Africa

00:21:01

just resonated. So, um, BG was, you

00:21:03

know, BG was my hero. And so, you know,

00:21:06

um, um, black pants and a black rugby

00:21:08

jersey that that, you know, we had at

00:21:10

home and got one of my mother's sheets

00:21:11

and cut it up and asked her to put a

00:21:13

number, whatever number BG was at the

00:21:14

time. It varied a little bit, but 13 was

00:21:16

one I seem to remember. And so, that's

00:21:18

you you'd run around, I'd get two of the

00:21:20

neighbors kids over. So, we play two on

00:21:21

two in the front paddic in the pouring

00:21:23

rain and mud everywhere. Um but but from

00:21:26

a goal kicking point of view, the real

00:21:28

thing that resonated with me was Barry

00:21:29

John from the 71 Lions because I was at

00:21:33

a very young age, you know, trying to

00:21:34

tow hack in bare feet, which wasn't good

00:21:36

for a young kid in the cold white cattle

00:21:38

winters. Um and I saw this guy kicking

00:21:41

very well using his instep round the

00:21:43

corner and my first thought was that

00:21:44

that won't hurt my hurt my toes. So

00:21:46

that's when I adopted it and and um

00:21:49

because my father was a goal kicker,

00:21:51

there was some encouragement there. Um,

00:21:52

and as I said, I just, you know, I just

00:21:54

like I like kicking a rabial. It didn't

00:21:56

have to be just goal kicking, but that's

00:21:58

where the sort of my first memories of

00:22:00

round the corner. Um, like, okay,

00:22:04

that'll work. Um, and then just, you

00:22:06

know, kept working hard from there. And

00:22:08

by the time you got to secondary school

00:22:10

age, were you were you really really

00:22:11

good? Is that why you were sent to

00:22:12

Oakland Grammar or? No, no, not not the

00:22:14

reason sent to grammar at all. I mean,

00:22:15

I'd played um um in in subun stuff and

00:22:19

also the the roll of Mills, which sadly

00:22:20

doesn't exist anymore. I played for

00:22:22

white cattle rangers. Um so selected

00:22:24

that was sort of the first taste of you

00:22:26

know representative football though it

00:22:27

was gi form too in those days. Um but

00:22:30

the local high school was Petarian Wayne

00:22:32

Smith had been there um a guy called

00:22:34

Benny Savage was there too. He was

00:22:35

another 58 who was in the first 58 in

00:22:37

the first New Zealand schools team in

00:22:39

1978. Benny Savage was a was the first

00:22:42

5'8. So um it was just an interesting

00:22:44

bit of um history that um Smithy, Benny,

00:22:47

Benny unfortunately didn't go on but you

00:22:49

know out of

00:22:51

came these three guys who played you

00:22:52

know 5'8 reasonably well um but my

00:22:55

parents just believed in education so um

00:22:57

I don't know the story properly but John

00:22:59

Graham was a headmaster um you know one

00:23:02

of Bob's older brother Jim lived in

00:23:05

Lichfield which was close by and my

00:23:06

parents knew them so maybe there was

00:23:08

some contact there. I'm summising here

00:23:09

cuz I actually haven't ever discussed

00:23:10

the story but got accepted into grand

00:23:12

grammar that my parents applied and I

00:23:14

went to Tib's house as a border and um

00:23:17

just part of the way you immerse

00:23:19

yourself in a school of what was 1,200

00:23:21

in those days when I arrived as a farm

00:23:23

kid I knew one person that's all I mean

00:23:25

I was just I I was lonely uh out of my

00:23:29

depth um hated it um I remember going

00:23:33

home for the first holiday at Easter

00:23:35

that year so this is 1976 and I got

00:23:38

home. Um, so on the Gibson Motors bus,

00:23:40

get out of the railway station, get on

00:23:42

the bus, go down to Para, get picked up,

00:23:43

get taken home. I went and got on the

00:23:45

motorbike and drove to the top of the

00:23:46

hill where the wool shed was and just

00:23:47

listen to the silence and bulled my eyes

00:23:49

out cuz I did not want to go back at

00:23:52

all. But, you know, that wasn't an

00:23:53

option and um, obviously it was the

00:23:56

right decision. Um, what was it just

00:23:58

like homesickness? Yeah, because I was I

00:24:00

was a farm kid. Got brought up in a

00:24:02

little community. So, you go into an

00:24:04

environment where you know there was 60

00:24:06

I think there was 60 borders in those. I

00:24:08

didn't know any of them, so I had to get

00:24:09

to know them. You know, there's a little

00:24:10

bit of Tom Brown School Days to some

00:24:12

degree. Minor stuff compared to what

00:24:14

you'd read in the book, but it was still

00:24:15

a little Oh, just Yeah. a little bit of

00:24:16

bullying in that as you know, if you

00:24:18

read Tom Brown School Days, remember

00:24:20

what that was like? Um, it was a story

00:24:22

about that. And so, there was a little

00:24:24

bit of that hierarchical, you know, turd

00:24:27

former. Yeah. Turd formers and all that

00:24:28

sort of stuff. So, not not overtly bad,

00:24:30

but a bit foreign. Um, so your boarding

00:24:34

school was I was talking to my

00:24:35

brother-in-law about this the other day.

00:24:36

He went to St. pans silver stream in in

00:24:38

the 90s and uh he's a he's a sleep

00:24:41

talker. He got caned once for for

00:24:43

talking after lights out. Yeah. I mean

00:24:44

Yeah. I mean we had corporal punishment

00:24:46

in those days. I got caned once at

00:24:47

school cuz I asked for it instead of

00:24:49

detention so I could go to rugby

00:24:50

practice. Um it hurt too. Um so but but

00:24:55

you know that choice and was all about

00:24:56

education. The sport thing wasn't part

00:24:58

of my parents um thought process. I'm

00:25:00

pretty sure about that. But also, you

00:25:02

know, though great believers in

00:25:04

leadership like I am and you know, Sir

00:25:05

John Graham was a headmaster, revered,

00:25:07

great leader. Um, you know, Grammar had

00:25:10

a great reputation. That was that was

00:25:11

the place to go. Yeah, you had some

00:25:13

great role models there. Um, Sir Graham

00:25:15

Henry, he was your coach for a time

00:25:17

there. Um, my old recctor from Palmer

00:25:19

Boys High. Yeah, Simsy was there. So,

00:25:21

Simsy coached the first 11 I played in.

00:25:23

Yeah. Mark Greatbatch, he was in Yeah,

00:25:25

Patty was a year behind me. Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:27

And so, I played first 11 cricket with

00:25:29

him, too. Yep. Incredible. God, he's one

00:25:31

of my favorite fielders. This seems like

00:25:33

a lame thing to say, but I loved

00:25:34

watching him feel. Oh, yeah. No, he

00:25:35

could play bi. Yeah. Yeah. And he's

00:25:37

competitive, too. Like he, you know, I'm

00:25:39

pretty sure he played a year of first

00:25:41

team rugby. I think the year I was in

00:25:43

the my last year he might have played

00:25:45

second 15 rugby. He was, as I said, a

00:25:46

year behind. He was a fiercely

00:25:48

competitive man, too. Yeah. And and

00:25:50

Martin Cro, you you guys were when did

00:25:51

you guys meet? Beginning of 1976, right?

00:25:54

Beginning of the school year. Um, two

00:25:55

guys who didn't know each other sit sat

00:25:57

on a pew in the assembly hall and got

00:25:59

talking.

00:26:01

and we just had a um we just found a

00:26:04

common bond. Um I'm going to get

00:26:06

emotional talking about him because I

00:26:07

always do. Um but um we just developed a

00:26:10

great friendship and but it was a

00:26:12

friendship based on a more of a mutual

00:26:14

interest in in sport. Um you know he was

00:26:17

obviously known as a cricketer but he

00:26:19

was talented at so many other sports and

00:26:21

I was the guy that was eventually going

00:26:23

to forge you know a career as a rugby

00:26:25

player. Um, so it just developed a great

00:26:28

friendship that didn't that didn't last

00:26:30

long enough because sadly he died at age

00:26:32

53.

00:26:34

Yeah. You you've you've done very few

00:26:36

podcasts, but um you I've heard whenever

00:26:38

um the late Martin Craig gets born up,

00:26:40

you do get emotional. Have you have you

00:26:42

always been an emotional guy? You find

00:26:44

this is happening with age? Um more with

00:26:45

age, I think. You know, some sometimes

00:26:48

it doesn't doesn't take much to see,

00:26:50

what am I got? What have I got to tear

00:26:51

for? you know, or I'm talking about

00:26:53

something and all a sudden just catch me

00:26:54

like it does with Marty. It something

00:26:56

just it just catches me. I don't it

00:26:58

doesn't feel like it's there and then

00:27:00

something just triggered and catches me.

00:27:02

So, I'm probably a bit more emotional

00:27:03

than um I give, you know, I'd like to

00:27:06

think I'm I'm relatively level, but I

00:27:08

just get caught occasionally and Marty's

00:27:10

one who catches it just catches me all

00:27:11

the time.

00:27:13

I I I think it's I'm probably projecting

00:27:15

here, but like when from my perspective

00:27:17

when I die, like my my biggest fear

00:27:18

would probably be there's there's the

00:27:20

FOMO thing of what you're going to miss

00:27:21

out on, but also you don't want to be

00:27:22

forgotten. And so the fact that you

00:27:24

reflect on this friend of yours and you

00:27:26

get emotional like a decade or whatever

00:27:28

it is after his death. Um speaks a lot

00:27:31

about him and the and what he meant to

00:27:34

you, which I think is so cool. Yeah.

00:27:36

Yeah. I mean, he was um a very special

00:27:38

man. um very talented man, a very um

00:27:41

emotional man who works hard on his

00:27:42

sleeve and at times it got him in

00:27:43

trouble too, you know, and the world we

00:27:45

live in nowadays, it's like you you say

00:27:47

one thing that is authentic and think

00:27:49

that someone will take it the wrong way

00:27:50

and the way the whole media thing works

00:27:52

nowadays, it doesn't take much for much

00:27:54

of a pile on. And I think sometimes

00:27:56

people get remembered more fondly and

00:27:59

and more for their greatness when when

00:28:01

they're not here. And that's the sad

00:28:03

thing because it took Marty to pass in

00:28:06

some ways for people to really

00:28:07

understand his greatness. I think he was

00:28:09

given enough credit but not quite

00:28:10

enough. It wasn't until he was what here

00:28:12

here and you could reflect. Um I mean I

00:28:16

remember a few things. I won't be

00:28:19

longwinded here but um you know it's a

00:28:21

long podcast. You can be as long as at

00:28:24

Marty's funeral service you know um and

00:28:28

well planned out in advance because he

00:28:29

knew it was going to happen. So you know

00:28:30

his favorite color was orange. So the

00:28:32

coffin was orange and all of this sort

00:28:33

of stuff. But um when you we first

00:28:36

arrived and sat in there playing on a

00:28:38

screen was his his hundred at Lords his

00:28:40

last 100 in test match rugby which

00:28:42

happened to Lords and that's when his

00:28:44

knee was gam um and Lords was hallowed

00:28:47

turf for him just the majesty of this

00:28:50

man batting is just was amazing.

00:28:54

And um Jeff his brother stood up and

00:28:58

started capping. the whole service stood

00:29:00

and started clapping cuz this man was a

00:29:03

genius. Um, and one other, you know, we

00:29:07

were brash school boys and when we

00:29:08

finished school we had a little bet and

00:29:09

I think that's documented um about who

00:29:12

who would play the most test matches for

00:29:14

their country and their chosen sport.

00:29:15

So, they're just brash, arrogant school

00:29:17

boys. Um, you know, Marty won that

00:29:20

battle um obviously cuz he he played 76

00:29:23

tests I think and I played um 46 or

00:29:26

thereabouts. You've probably got the

00:29:27

number. I won't have the number exactly

00:29:28

right, but um but when Marty um retired

00:29:32

and he he was putting a book out um um I

00:29:36

took a a signed all black jersey, my

00:29:39

jersey to him cuz that was sort of like

00:29:40

well you won buddy and he returned um a

00:29:44

pencil drawing of Lords that says to

00:29:47

Foxy we both won. Pretty special.

00:29:51

Where is that? In the games room on the

00:29:54

wall.

00:29:57

Well, you made the New Zealand Hall of

00:29:59

Fame in 99 and he was two years behind

00:30:01

you. So, that's a win for Foxy. Yeah.

00:30:03

Yeah. Well, we both won, as you said. We

00:30:05

both won. Were you um Yeah. As as school

00:30:08

boys, you seem like very different

00:30:10

personality types as in that you you

00:30:12

know, you you were kind of stoic. He was

00:30:14

more sort of like vulnerable, heart on

00:30:15

your sleeve type of person. Did you you

00:30:19

you clash or as school boys? No. No, we

00:30:21

didn't. Um look, I stated um his place a

00:30:23

lot. You know, we we got each term

00:30:25

there, three term years, we got three

00:30:28

three weekends out. Most of those

00:30:30

weekends I'd go to his place or another

00:30:32

another good friend called David Maroy.

00:30:34

And you know, we Marty and I always was

00:30:36

involved in something. We used to play

00:30:37

cricket um with dice using and score

00:30:41

through cuz it just Marty Marty had a

00:30:43

game that you threw numbers and how you

00:30:45

get wickets and how you score fours and

00:30:46

sixes. We would play this. That's how we

00:30:49

we did with dice, two dice and do it or

00:30:52

we'd play cricket in the hallway with a

00:30:54

little miniature bat and a and a squash

00:30:56

ball so we didn't break anything. And we

00:30:58

were always up to something like that.

00:31:00

Um you know at school together we we

00:31:02

entered the the the tennis champs at

00:31:05

school, the doubles champs, the juniors

00:31:07

and the seniors and you know made the

00:31:09

finals of both of them um you know in

00:31:11

our sort of fourth form year and our

00:31:13

seventh form year. So that was just we

00:31:14

were fiercely competitive and that's how

00:31:16

talented he was.

00:31:17

um you know to the to the point I mean I

00:31:20

still remember this really vividly um

00:31:23

and I played was lucky enough to play

00:31:25

one term in the first 11 while Marty was

00:31:27

still it's the first time I was seventh

00:31:28

form year um and I had throwdowns with

00:31:32

Marty um every Friday became a ritual

00:31:34

get to the nets have throwdowns so three

00:31:36

weekends in a row when we did this

00:31:38

little ritual one day he got 140 odd

00:31:43

um and then the next week got five

00:31:45

wickets and then the following Saturday

00:31:47

got 240 odd like this this was the

00:31:49

genius of this man and and I had a I had

00:31:51

a front row seat um just so talented um

00:31:56

you know then we played a bit of golf in

00:31:57

the se form together and stuff like that

00:31:59

so we just you know we we we we hung out

00:32:02

together I went to his first time he

00:32:04

played for

00:32:06

um I think he was playing for Oakland

00:32:08

and my memory fails me a bit here big

00:32:10

one day game when the West Indies were

00:32:11

here it actually could have been New

00:32:12

Zealand I'm not sure um and sadly that

00:32:16

day he got duck cuz I was just getting

00:32:17

into my seat and I missed it. But I

00:32:19

didn't Yeah, that all happens. The best

00:32:22

of us um don't always get what we want.

00:32:25

But yeah, so I mean there's lot I'm

00:32:26

getting a bit I'm rambling a bit now,

00:32:28

but there are just so many good

00:32:29

memories. The saddest one of all for me

00:32:31

is a bit at the end because you know we

00:32:33

talked about playing a lot more golf

00:32:34

together. Um drinking red wine together,

00:32:37

just socializing, you know, and he had

00:32:39

found real he'd found his his soulmate

00:32:42

in Lraine. They just didn't get enough

00:32:43

time together. Um very very sad. um

00:32:46

where where you know Marty is

00:32:48

um as I said he was emotional and you

00:32:50

know at times is a bit of a tormented

00:32:52

soul but that was his also if you people

00:32:55

who are geniuses often have these sort

00:32:57

of characteristics I reckon and that's

00:32:59

just Marty was and just when he found

00:33:01

some real peace and happiness he gets

00:33:04

cancer and doesn't doesn't live long

00:33:06

enough it's not fair I I feel like he

00:33:08

was sort of a man before his time you

00:33:10

know like he he was sort of

00:33:11

misunderstood by the New Zealand public

00:33:12

there's even a chapter the book that you

00:33:14

wrote the forward too raw, which I

00:33:16

flicked through the other day. Like

00:33:17

there's a chapter in there where he even

00:33:18

addresses um like rumors or innuendo

00:33:22

about him being like gay, which is so

00:33:25

perfect. It was like the you know, yeah,

00:33:27

that's because because he and Jeff had a

00:33:28

manager who was gay, right? So people

00:33:30

draw a long bow here. I mean, I know he

00:33:32

wasn't gay. So um and to be honest, it

00:33:35

wouldn't have mattered if he was. Who

00:33:36

cares? Yeah. Um that's what he says in

00:33:38

the book. Yeah. Who cares? No one else's

00:33:40

business. Um but that's where that line.

00:33:42

But that was you know that I mean it's

00:33:45

just I guess to some point as time

00:33:49

passes and you know different parts of

00:33:52

society evolve and develop or whatever

00:33:54

and sometimes not for the better you

00:33:56

know and if I look at the media nowadays

00:33:58

in terms of how things are done there's

00:34:00

a lot more opinion stuff and a lot more

00:34:01

platforms than there is actually hard

00:34:03

fact and when in the old days didn't

00:34:05

have any choice because technology

00:34:07

didn't allow all this stuff so you had

00:34:09

to deal more or less in in hard facts

00:34:11

and opinion was less part of

00:34:13

But I guess there was less competition

00:34:14

in those days compared to what there is

00:34:16

now too. So I mean it is what it is. But

00:34:18

we've also tal just got to take things

00:34:20

with a grain of salt because just

00:34:22

because there's something in the media

00:34:23

does it mean it's true? No it doesn't. I

00:34:26

think that's what the level of mistrust

00:34:27

in mainstream media has never been

00:34:29

higher than what it is now you know

00:34:31

people you read something and you're

00:34:32

like is this true or not? Yeah. And and

00:34:35

I'm you know I don't I don't to be

00:34:37

honest consume a lot of mainstream

00:34:38

media. I don't consume a lot of media

00:34:39

nowadays cuz at times it can just make

00:34:42

you you read it and go oh god really. So

00:34:44

you better just I got better things to

00:34:45

do than get worked up about that sort of

00:34:47

stuff. So best to avoid it. Yeah. A

00:34:50

couple couple more on um your your

00:34:52

friend Martin Craig before we move on.

00:34:53

So um that that bet you made in the the

00:34:55

final year of school. Were you both sort

00:34:58

of like hot ticket guys at that at that

00:35:00

point as in were you both on the radar

00:35:02

for like national I mean I played for

00:35:04

New Zealand schools that year.

00:35:06

and I'm not sure I don't think they had

00:35:07

a New Zealand schools cricket team. They

00:35:09

may have, but it was just very clear

00:35:11

about Marty's talent. He was already

00:35:12

playing for Aland as a school boy. You

00:35:15

know, he got picked straight, you know,

00:35:16

pretty quickly out of school for um for

00:35:19

New Zealand. So, it his his talent was

00:35:22

obvious, right? It was he was always

00:35:24

destined to get to where, you know, he

00:35:27

got to. And I mean, in a funny way, were

00:35:28

you as well? Not necessarily. You went a

00:35:32

I don't reckon I was. I mean, I I was um

00:35:34

I was driven like Marty. Um I think it

00:35:37

was clear Marty always had an X factor

00:35:39

of talent. I don't re I had an X act of

00:35:40

talent. I had a good hand eye

00:35:42

coordination and um perhaps you know a

00:35:45

reasonable brain from a tactical point

00:35:47

of view. But you know I wasn't a very

00:35:49

big kid. I had to work hard and I was

00:35:50

happy to work hard. um and you know got

00:35:52

lucky enough to be associated with

00:35:55

Graeme Henry at school and then for

00:35:56

university um initially and then you

00:35:59

know John Hartz led me for Aland and I

00:36:01

won't won't litigate the rest of it but

00:36:03

um you know lucky to play you know be

00:36:06

coached by him at at a young age um but

00:36:08

also playing good teams you know you're

00:36:11

more likely to get promoted if you're

00:36:12

playing in good teams that that win and

00:36:14

win championships it's just it's just

00:36:17

easier and I'm not saying it should be

00:36:19

that way it's just a fact of life so you

00:36:21

you get noticed a little bit more, get a

00:36:22

bit more bit get a bit more coverage and

00:36:24

therefore come to you know the people's

00:36:26

attention a little bit more. Um nowadays

00:36:29

there's a lot more technology around

00:36:30

this. So you you've possibly got a

00:36:32

better chance cuz the coaches can dive

00:36:34

into all a whole and all this all the

00:36:37

analytics now that we didn't have when I

00:36:39

was playing. VHS was how they did it.

00:36:41

Yeah. And um you just about and chopped

00:36:44

Martin's finger off when I did. I did

00:36:46

know about this. I did. Yeah. No, we

00:36:49

were my my parents would were in Kiwi

00:36:51

fruit by this stage of many kiwi for a

00:36:53

long time at school and I used to go

00:36:55

down and spend the summers down there.

00:36:57

Um and Marty I remember Marty came down

00:36:59

for a a few days with us. Um and we were

00:37:02

working on the orchard printing shelter

00:37:03

belts with a and I was on the chainsaw

00:37:05

standing on the back deck of of our ute

00:37:07

and you know Marty was sort of pointing

00:37:09

out this one is saying which oh [ __ ]

00:37:12

took a chunk took a chunk out of his

00:37:15

finger. Um, you know, just the blade did

00:37:18

not a little not not a lot of damage. It

00:37:20

just took a leak nick out of it. Very

00:37:22

lucky. But yeah, very lucky. But then I

00:37:25

reckon after that he could swing the

00:37:26

ball more because his finger was a bit

00:37:27

deformed. You did him a favor. I did him

00:37:29

a favor. Can you remember the last

00:37:31

conversation you had? Um, when you do

00:37:33

the forward to his book, Raw, you talk

00:37:35

about how you'd had some like long phone

00:37:37

conversations. So, he was still around

00:37:38

then. Yeah. For hours at a time. Yeah.

00:37:41

The last one. No, I don't. I mean my

00:37:43

memory doesn't work very well like that

00:37:44

to be honest but I do remember you know

00:37:47

um um just time I mean I have one vivid

00:37:51

memory of an afternoon spent at his

00:37:53

place when Keith Quinn was there um cuz

00:37:56

he was a good friend of Keith Quinn as

00:37:57

you know the rugby commentator lovely

00:38:00

man Quinny um and we just you know um I

00:38:03

don't know we just sat in the backyard

00:38:04

and we drunk red wine and we ate and we

00:38:07

laughed and

00:38:09

you know um I was one of the lucky ones

00:38:11

that was sort of included um and you

00:38:14

know as Marty was getting ill to be able

00:38:16

to you know just um ring up mate you

00:38:20

okay can I come and see you um cuz it

00:38:23

you know he to it was hard to let

00:38:26

everyone in you know it was going to be

00:38:28

impossible cuz there was just so many so

00:38:30

for his own well-being he had to

00:38:32

restrict that and so as a guy called

00:38:34

Dave Morris who was the head boy um in

00:38:36

1980 and Marty was the deputy head boy

00:38:39

they were very close as as I was close

00:38:41

to to Marty and and Dave and I have we

00:38:43

still connect Dave and I quite a lot. Um

00:38:45

so we were a couple of the lucky ones

00:38:47

who Marty led in and it was a it was as

00:38:49

sad as it was it was a privilege you

00:38:51

know to go through that journey with him

00:38:54

and I still remember exactly where I was

00:38:56

when Dave rung me and said he's gone

00:39:00

you know it's like he'd gone in for

00:39:02

resppite and I just thought okay it's

00:39:03

resppite care um and into into hospice.

00:39:07

I just thought it was respite care cuz

00:39:09

that's what I was told. But clearly it

00:39:11

was more than that. I hadn't thought

00:39:13

anything of it. Just he's Lraine needs a

00:39:15

break. And it wasn't it.

00:39:19

That was that was the end.

00:39:24

Yeah. It's it's unfair. And I Well,

00:39:26

life's not fair. We know that. Life's

00:39:28

not fair. But, you know, that was the

00:39:30

that was the card he was dealt sadly.

00:39:32

And um can't change it. And as you get

00:39:36

older, it sort of just crystallizes the

00:39:37

fact that, you know, we've all here for

00:39:39

a limited time. I mean, you had you've

00:39:40

had this thing recently and Doc Mayhew.

00:39:43

Yeah, I know. Just sort of crystallizes

00:39:45

that just how precious. Yeah. And you

00:39:47

also know when you get to my stage of

00:39:49

life, they like we laugh that we're all

00:39:51

getting in sniper rally now, but we go

00:39:53

to far more far more funerals and

00:39:55

weddings. So, it's just a sign. Look, at

00:39:57

the end of the day, um, you know, we

00:40:00

don't consider 70 or even 80 that old

00:40:02

nowadays, you know, and once upon a time

00:40:04

it was like, oh, that's not bad. We

00:40:05

don't consider it nowadays at all. And

00:40:07

again, um, I heard a saying relatively

00:40:10

recently that getting old's a privilege.

00:40:11

You know, we moan and groan about

00:40:12

falling apart and I'm feel like I'm

00:40:14

falling apart at the moment, but but

00:40:15

getting old's a privilege because not

00:40:17

everyone gets to do it. 100%. So, you

00:40:19

know, as much as you might have some

00:40:20

ailments and, you know, things that are

00:40:21

niggling and annoying you, wow, you

00:40:24

know, I'm we're still here. It's better

00:40:26

than the alternative. Better than the

00:40:27

alternative. Yeah. Hey, um, thanks for

00:40:29

sharing that stuff about Martin. Yeah.

00:40:33

Great New Zealander. Like you look at

00:40:34

T20 now. He was kind of like the cricket

00:40:36

max. Yeah. Invented a thing called

00:40:38

Cricket Max. That was I thought it was a

00:40:39

bit wacky at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:40:40

and but he, you know, he was working at

00:40:41

Sky and he got Sky TV to back and my

00:40:44

again I don't know all the detail, but I

00:40:46

he was a pioneer of things in many ways

00:40:48

and I reckon he was the guy and I'm

00:40:50

going to credit him with him regardless

00:40:52

that that he's he pioneered what

00:40:54

eventually became T20. M through cricket

00:40:56

max he was innovative you know he cared

00:40:58

so deeply but he wanted this game to

00:41:00

evolve and grow and become more

00:41:02

appealing and you know he I guess he

00:41:04

understood that well test match

00:41:06

cricket's the pinnacle you know at the

00:41:08

end of the day trying to engage an

00:41:09

audience you know when you can go five

00:41:11

days and not get not get a result is not

00:41:13

easy so how do we you know and how do we

00:41:15

package something up that works in three

00:41:17

hours for broadcast that people can

00:41:19

consume for three hours and make it

00:41:21

exciting and you know bring some other

00:41:23

innovative things into it. So, hello.

00:41:25

Here's Cricket Max.

00:41:28

Can we go back to your All Black career?

00:41:30

Yep. Yeah. Okay. So, do you remember the

00:41:31

moment you became an all black? Yep. I

00:41:32

remember the moment the team was

00:41:34

announced. Yeah. Did you have like a

00:41:36

probables possibles trial? No. No. Not

00:41:39

Not for Fiji. No. No. That was just

00:41:41

picked at the end of the NPC

00:41:44

um in 1984. Right. So, you were playing

00:41:46

for the the mighty Oakland team. Yeah.

00:41:48

Yeah. Well, that was 1982. So, we'd won

00:41:50

the championship that year, but the NPC

00:41:52

had started in its current form um or as

00:41:55

a proper NPC championship in 1976.

00:41:57

Oakland hadn't despite being the biggest

00:42:00

population hadn't won it. So, you know,

00:42:01

John Hart became coach in 1982. Uh you

00:42:04

know, we won that. Sorry, I became 1984.

00:42:07

Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. Um I

00:42:09

So, um 82, we played well and won it. 83

00:42:12

um you know, we hadn't won it. Um 84 we

00:42:15

won it again. I'm pretty sure of that.

00:42:17

again my memory but Aland had yeah we

00:42:20

had because we had had a good season

00:42:22

we'd been pretty pretty dominant um you

00:42:24

know on the back of that I'd had a

00:42:25

pretty good year the jungle drums were

00:42:27

beating that you know I was likely to

00:42:28

get picked alongside Wayne Smith um I

00:42:31

have a feeling Ian Dunn who was the guy

00:42:33

who was with the um the some of these

00:42:35

understudying 83 lines was injured so

00:42:38

that that opened a bit of a door um I

00:42:40

can't remember exactly but I think that

00:42:41

was the case um and they just you don't

00:42:44

get didn't get a phone call you just

00:42:46

just heard it on the Yeah. So, I was

00:42:47

gathered around the radio. I think it

00:42:48

was at 2 I'm pretty sure it was 2:00 on

00:42:50

a Sunday afternoon. I was with a D at a

00:42:53

mom and dad's house and their name was

00:42:54

read out.

00:42:56

[ __ ] What's that moment like? Oh, yeah.

00:42:59

I mean, it's surreal. It's I mean, it's

00:43:01

what you know, it was the it was the

00:43:02

boyhood dream you strive towards. You

00:43:05

don't towards you don't you don't really

00:43:06

know. The jungle drums were beating. So,

00:43:08

you you sit there with a certain amount

00:43:10

of, you know, confidence, I guess, that

00:43:13

yep, on the back of what's happened. um

00:43:16

you know um there's a there's a

00:43:18

reasonable chance but there also a

00:43:19

chance you won't. So just because there

00:43:21

there is a degree of confident doesn't

00:43:22

mean you're not sitting there with your

00:43:24

belly bloody churning cuz mine was. the

00:43:26

nerves would would jingle and so um and

00:43:29

so it was you know I mean great um

00:43:31

euphoria but also a great sense of

00:43:33

relief but the journey about to start

00:43:35

the relief bits go finally made it but

00:43:37

you haven't made it it's only you just

00:43:38

started another journey you know so um

00:43:41

and I you know clearly for me I didn't

00:43:43

want to be picked and have one tour and

00:43:44

stop I wanted to you know even though I

00:43:46

hadn't been in the team it's you know

00:43:48

with its history you want to be part of

00:43:49

it so I just wanted this to you know

00:43:52

this is the start of something I want to

00:43:53

last for a while and how intimidating is

00:43:56

that so the the position you're in

00:43:57

number 10, you're sort of like um

00:43:59

controlling the flow of the game in a

00:44:01

way. Um yet you're you know you're the

00:44:04

new kid on the block by these senior

00:44:06

players. How [ __ ] intimidating is

00:44:08

that? Um I well I see I don't look at it

00:44:11

like like that. I mean that was just

00:44:13

part of my job. I got picked um um

00:44:15

because um I was deemed to be um you

00:44:18

know good enough by the selectors um

00:44:20

part of my job and with with Oakland I

00:44:22

ran the cutter. I you know I dealt the

00:44:24

cards. So that's and it's still to this

00:44:27

day traditionally number 10 does that.

00:44:29

So that hasn't it's probably always been

00:44:30

the same. So that was just part of what

00:44:33

my role was and so I was I was used to

00:44:35

it not intimidated by it at all. Yes, it

00:44:38

was going to be up a level from what

00:44:39

would been and it was going to be you

00:44:41

know um faster, more physical um you

00:44:44

know more demanding mentally because it

00:44:46

was going to be harder to plot your way

00:44:47

around a little bit. But again you just

00:44:49

dial into what the team's trying to

00:44:50

achieve. get into the game plan, you

00:44:52

know, use a bit of intuition,

00:44:54

understanding, you know, the pictures

00:44:55

you're painting and what back what what

00:44:57

we call a backfield looks like. Um, and

00:45:00

so I didn't I don't think it was

00:45:02

daunting. I I I thought it was a great

00:45:03

challenge, but not not daunted by it.

00:45:05

Not that I can recall anyway. Oh, a lot

00:45:07

of the team members were probably your

00:45:08

Oakland teammates anyway, right? Uh,

00:45:10

yeah, not so many days, but a few. Yeah.

00:45:12

Yeah, there was a lot in the 87 World

00:45:14

Cup team. Again, a lot of guys, but no,

00:45:16

there was a few. But but you know the

00:45:17

other guys we played against so we knew

00:45:19

them anyway you know and look it's funny

00:45:21

how you're fierce competitors when you

00:45:22

play against each other proincially like

00:45:24

you wanna you want to win and sometimes

00:45:27

with the bigger boys it gets a little

00:45:28

bit more you know they getting very

00:45:30

physical against each other but the all

00:45:32

the all blacks brings you together so

00:45:33

all of those things are you know if

00:45:35

there's been an incident that one guy's

00:45:37

clocked you um and at the time you're

00:45:39

annoyed when you go the all black you

00:45:40

just laugh about that so um you know we

00:45:42

just it just bring you just come

00:45:44

together and the um The first game you

00:45:47

played for was that was that in

00:45:48

Argentina and no first test was in

00:45:50

Argentina. First test was in Argentina.

00:45:52

First game in Fiji in ' 84. First game

00:45:54

in Fiji in ' 84. Yeah. What what's that

00:45:56

like putting the jersey on? You used to

00:45:58

been um really anxious pregame, right?

00:46:01

Like Yeah. I got nervous, right? Because

00:46:03

nervous means you're ready in my view.

00:46:04

if you if there wasn't anything going on

00:46:06

from a um the nervous system um a

00:46:09

nervous system wasn't I mean I think at

00:46:12

times depending on form nervous the

00:46:13

nervous system can create doubt but if

00:46:15

you're in form it creates excitement

00:46:17

because if you don't get it you're not

00:46:18

ready so that's how I always judged if I

00:46:20

wasn't sitting in the bus you know or in

00:46:22

the dressing room before with a couple

00:46:24

of dry reaches I thought well am I ready

00:46:25

for this or not now I learned that over

00:46:27

time um because preparation is the key

00:46:29

to success so you know if you've done

00:46:31

your work yeah you okay I'm ready

00:46:33

whatever they're going to throw at me.

00:46:35

Um, what what we're trying to achieve,

00:46:37

you know, I'm ready for that and I know

00:46:38

my mates are too. Did the the premature

00:46:41

vomiting stop after I didn't vomit. I

00:46:43

didn't vomit. No, not really. I mean, it

00:46:45

was I mean, dry reach and look, it

00:46:47

wasn't a permanent like it would just be

00:46:49

a couple of times where the nerves would

00:46:50

just get a little bit and so I'd have to

00:46:52

go and it was a dry reach, right? And it

00:46:54

would just like one big like a big yawn

00:46:57

and done, right? So, vomiting, no,

00:46:59

didn't never get to that. And it wasn't

00:47:01

every game, right? Um, you know, some

00:47:03

games it's you can't you can't be the

00:47:06

top of the mountain all the time. You're

00:47:07

going to fluctuate a little bit. It's

00:47:08

just you cannot you mentally just can't

00:47:11

do it. The best sports people in the

00:47:12

world don't win every time they play cuz

00:47:14

sometimes they're just not where they'd

00:47:16

like to be. And you can't peak every

00:47:18

time. I mean, realistically, I reckon

00:47:20

you can peak about 10% of the time you

00:47:22

play. You can be at maximum, you know,

00:47:25

maximum level. Um, so some games more

00:47:28

than others got you depending on I guess

00:47:30

the magnitude of the game and and how

00:47:32

you prepared for that. Um, but dry

00:47:35

reaching wasn't uncommon for me.

00:47:39

Yeah, it was completely different um

00:47:40

time then mid 80s to what it is now like

00:47:42

in the team there were there were cops,

00:47:43

farmers, truck drivers. Um, yeah. What

00:47:47

did what did an average week look like?

00:47:48

Week of a test. Well, we were together

00:47:50

we we were together in the test, right?

00:47:52

So the week of a test was different than

00:47:53

playing for pro provincial rugby. But

00:47:54

provincial rugby was um train Tuesday

00:47:57

night, Thursday night um play Saturday

00:48:00

and for the most part we were probably

00:48:02

in a hotel on the Friday night um and if

00:48:04

you're traveling you are together so but

00:48:07

you travel on a Friday um fly hotel play

00:48:11

um you know come home Sunday um um and

00:48:14

you know we had our own training

00:48:15

programs during the week that were so

00:48:17

our own resource but hook touching and

00:48:19

um touching with guys like Jim Blair

00:48:20

making sure that on the Monday or the

00:48:22

Sunday our recovery you know Monday and

00:48:25

Wednesday, you know what? Our own

00:48:27

programs, especially designated

00:48:28

programs, because we weren't together as

00:48:29

a team. For an all black, you assembled

00:48:32

you. In the old days, they used to

00:48:33

assemble on a at earliest a Wednesday,

00:48:35

but sometimes Thursday to play. By the

00:48:37

time I got to the All Blacks, it was

00:48:38

more like a Monday. But and so it was it

00:48:41

was like being together professionally

00:48:43

because we weren't at work. This was our

00:48:45

job for the week even though we weren't

00:48:46

we weren't paid for it. So the the all

00:48:48

black all black weeks test weeks changed

00:48:51

a bit because of you know the team

00:48:52

wasn't together very often spend much

00:48:54

time together so you needed a few days

00:48:56

it's still the all blacks still nowadays

00:48:58

get the least amount of prep time of any

00:48:59

of the teams that play the super rugby

00:49:01

teams get the best run at this on terms

00:49:03

of preseason leading in the NPC teams

00:49:06

get more than the all blacks but but not

00:49:08

as much as super rugby team the all

00:49:10

blacks get the least of all you know

00:49:11

they go into a big test match and you've

00:49:12

effectively you're lucky if you got a

00:49:14

week right so it's it's and you know so

00:49:16

that's That's sometimes the bit that's

00:49:18

forgotten when the expectation of the

00:49:20

All Blacks. And by the way, I don't want

00:49:21

this to change, but you've often got you

00:49:23

spend the less time together of any of

00:49:25

the teams you play with, play for. Did

00:49:28

you Were you guys doing weights back

00:49:29

then? Not gym at all. No, not until Jim

00:49:32

Blair came along, right? Um um and you

00:49:36

know, weights was a small part of what I

00:49:38

I did. not not an awful lot, but more of

00:49:40

it um was about plyometric work on boxes

00:49:42

and hopping and jumping, you know, um to

00:49:45

to get explosiveness in um um but in the

00:49:49

early days just running roads. We just

00:49:50

ran roads. That's what we did. And at

00:49:52

training, they'd try and throw a few

00:49:54

henny mullers in and you know what we'd

00:49:56

call down and ups, you know, little

00:49:58

short sprints and go down, do a press

00:50:00

up, turn around, come. So very primitive

00:50:01

stuff in those days that we didn't know

00:50:03

any better, right? So it was a lot of

00:50:04

aerobic based more than, you know,

00:50:06

strength-based. Nowadays it's it's a

00:50:09

blend of everything and diet. We didn't

00:50:11

diet didn't what was diet? We didn't

00:50:13

know. We didn't know. You one of your

00:50:15

heroes um BG Super Williams I had him on

00:50:18

the podcast and he talked about like the

00:50:19

tours in the 70s how they'd um like have

00:50:22

a big steak for breakfast and first half

00:50:24

of the game he said he'd be like burping

00:50:25

up steak and stuff and then uh you the

00:50:28

body would digest it and the second half

00:50:29

you start to get the energy from you

00:50:31

only you only knew what you knew, right?

00:50:33

That's what so that's what you go on.

00:50:35

Um, I mean mine mine used to be baked

00:50:38

beans, eggs.

00:50:40

Um, I might have had fries and bacon I

00:50:43

think was my and a certain time before

00:50:45

the game. That was my that was and we

00:50:47

played in the afternoon remember mostly.

00:50:49

So it was a pre-match meal probably um

00:50:53

between five and six hours before the

00:50:55

game. Now these guys eat much closer to

00:50:58

the game um than than what what um what

00:51:00

we used to. But again, they've got all

00:51:02

the science around it. M we didn't have

00:51:04

any of it in those days.

00:51:07

Yeah, it's quite cool when you look

00:51:08

back. It's pretty cool, eh? They're cool

00:51:10

stories. Yeah, they are. But but again,

00:51:12

it's it's just you know what you know. I

00:51:14

mean, the guys who played, you know, you

00:51:15

sit with Ian Kpatrick and things at

00:51:17

times and they got different stories

00:51:18

again. It's just different eras cuz um

00:51:20

you know the the the society was

00:51:22

different. Um you know, the way they

00:51:25

were judged was different. You know, how

00:51:27

often nowadays do we see behaviors of

00:51:29

the past that were considered okay

00:51:32

looked through the lens of today are not

00:51:33

okay yet we want to litigate them. Well,

00:51:35

I don't think that's particularly fair.

00:51:37

Depending on what it is, of course, but

00:51:39

um you know, it's just like, well, you

00:51:41

know, times have changed. So, you know,

00:51:44

what happened back then, you know, it

00:51:46

just it is it was it was what it was,

00:51:49

right? And okay, might we mightn't like

00:51:51

it nowadays, but back then, what you

00:51:54

know, if you didn't have an issue with

00:51:55

it at the time, eh, it's you just

00:51:57

compare it. Yeah, you can't compare it,

00:51:58

right? And by today's lens on certain

00:52:00

things, you can see, yeah, okay, it

00:52:01

wasn't this, but again, you only only

00:52:03

know what you know, and at certain

00:52:05

times, you only know what you know. And

00:52:06

as you grow and evolve and learn and

00:52:08

things change, well, and you adapt,

00:52:10

okay, well, Mia, maybe that wasn't, you

00:52:12

know, wasn't quite so good, but but it

00:52:14

wasn't considered at the time. And so,

00:52:15

you don't judge yourself that way. Yeah.

00:52:17

Anyway, I don't want to get deep and

00:52:19

meaningful on this. Oh, no. No, I like

00:52:21

it. It's one one thing I like I admire

00:52:23

about you greatly like how you you will

00:52:25

put your neck out and speak your mind

00:52:26

about things when a lot of the time it's

00:52:28

easier just to just well in today in

00:52:30

today's world it's easier to shut up now

00:52:32

I don't do this to be honest I have shut

00:52:33

myself off right I mean I don't long

00:52:35

form podcasts are fine and I this is

00:52:37

only my third one I've done but it's

00:52:39

simply because you get a chance to have

00:52:41

a proper conversation and get context

00:52:42

around it unless someone decides to clip

00:52:44

this for their own end but um um so you

00:52:48

just anyway I so I just I got better

00:52:51

things to So I'm just saying I don't the

00:52:53

world we live in it's so easy to get you

00:52:55

I mean poke your head above the parabet

00:52:57

boom they lop it off easy easy easy you

00:52:59

know and maybe a cowardly way is I don't

00:53:01

want to be part of that I did that once

00:53:02

upon a time um I'm at a time of life now

00:53:05

with grandchildren and you know wanting

00:53:06

to spend more time at home that I just

00:53:08

it's not what I want not what I want to

00:53:09

be part of don't eat it not your circus

00:53:11

not your monkeys um so we're so we're

00:53:15

leading up to the 87 World Cup but

00:53:16

before then there was the Cavaliers tour

00:53:19

I'm um I I'm I'm 52, but I don't even

00:53:22

remember the backstory with this. What's

00:53:24

the What's the story with the Oh, there

00:53:25

been there have been So, we were due to

00:53:26

tour as an all black team in 1985. An

00:53:28

all black team had been picked. I got

00:53:29

picked in that team. And, you know, for

00:53:31

for at that period, and I'd still argue

00:53:33

nowadays, they are the our great foes,

00:53:35

our great friends, but our great foes.

00:53:37

The history's enormous, right? Um, you

00:53:39

know, it took us till 1996 to win a

00:53:41

series in South Africa, and they've been

00:53:42

going on for, you know, 1921, I think,

00:53:44

was the first time we went to South

00:53:46

Africa. Um, or they might have come

00:53:48

here. I can't remember which way round.

00:53:49

um we were picked and then a couple of

00:53:52

um uh university club lawyers who was a

00:53:54

club I belong to um took an injunction

00:53:57

out against the New Zealand rugby union

00:53:58

and um the tour was stopped by a high

00:54:00

court judge called Ted Thomas I think um

00:54:03

and so that tour was scrapped and so you

00:54:05

know a rebel tour was put together the

00:54:07

next year because there's a lot of us

00:54:08

who felt unjustly denied because we just

00:54:11

you know there's a lot of people who

00:54:12

still want to link sport and politics. I

00:54:13

don't draw that link at all. I

00:54:15

understand how people want to do it but

00:54:18

we because they were thinking by going

00:54:20

to play in South Africa we were

00:54:21

condoning a part of I can't think of

00:54:22

anyone there wouldn't have been in our

00:54:23

team who condoned it at all but we just

00:54:25

wanted to play sport against our foes we

00:54:27

didn't want to be pawns in a bigger game

00:54:29

right so um we just want to get on so

00:54:32

that's there was a great frustration

00:54:33

from the group and so I think only David

00:54:35

Kirk and John Cen from the original

00:54:37

select selected group didn't go of 30

00:54:39

and so that was April 1986 I think we

00:54:42

went on that tour because I genuinely

00:54:44

thought at the time, I may never get the

00:54:47

chance to play against the Spring Box as

00:54:49

an All Black, but I want to play them.

00:54:51

We knew um that we were likely to be

00:54:54

banned. Um we knew the risks involved.

00:54:58

Um but for me, I just wanted to test

00:55:00

myself as a rugby player in this against

00:55:02

the great foe who I'd watch growing up

00:55:04

who we could never beat in their in

00:55:06

their backyard. That was and I want and

00:55:08

grow and became a better rugby. I

00:55:10

believe I came back a better rugby

00:55:11

player. I don't want to get into the

00:55:13

political side of things cuz it wasn't

00:55:15

in my not so it wasn't in my head not

00:55:17

you know people trying to suggest um if

00:55:20

we did things how we were thinking and

00:55:22

therefore judge us on that they they

00:55:24

don't know us they don't know what we

00:55:25

think was was there any sort of riff

00:55:27

between the players that went and say

00:55:30

Kirk and Kerwin for not I don't look I

00:55:32

mean with with I think there might have

00:55:35

been with Kirky um more with perhaps um

00:55:39

you know the late great Andy Hayden a

00:55:41

little bit um overtly. I didn't I I

00:55:44

either I didn't see it or I can't

00:55:45

remember it. I'm not trying to um ignore

00:55:47

the question, but I genu genuinely

00:55:49

can't. Um Kirky might have, you know,

00:55:52

perhaps, you know, um made some comments

00:55:55

publicly where I think maybe JK didn't

00:55:57

and, you know, maybe um with Kirky's,

00:56:01

you know, um um value system, his

00:56:04

values, it might have rubbed a couple of

00:56:07

guys up the wrong way. Kirk is entitled

00:56:09

to his views and his opinions and his

00:56:11

beliefs. Um that might have played out a

00:56:13

little bit, but again I can't I can't

00:56:15

remember it. Um 40 years ago

00:56:19

and yeah and look that's in that's in

00:56:21

the past, right? Um um I but I genuinely

00:56:24

believe as we lead into the 87 thing

00:56:26

that that that helped mold the great

00:56:29

team that started in 1987. How so?

00:56:32

Because a whole lot of because um a

00:56:34

number of us were banned and we didn't

00:56:37

you got like a two two two test span

00:56:40

right two test span um so a whole new

00:56:43

team had to be picked so a whole lot of

00:56:44

players got exposed um to all black test

00:56:47

rugby who wouldn't have got an

00:56:48

opportunity otherwise right because if

00:56:50

that would in 85 largely um you know

00:56:54

through 86 and 87 a lot of the group

00:56:56

would have been similar so you exposed a

00:56:58

whole lot more players to that and the

00:57:01

baby blats were ultimately successful

00:57:04

right because they weren't expected to

00:57:06

be Um and and out of that it was a wider

00:57:10

pool of players to pick from and with

00:57:13

Brian Lore, John Hart and Alex Wy they

00:57:15

picked a blend of what had been the

00:57:16

older guys, established guys and some of

00:57:18

the baby blacks and I generally think

00:57:20

that out of that we got we got two

00:57:22

things. one is um you know a very well

00:57:25

selected team because I got you know

00:57:28

some really good players were exposed

00:57:29

and deserve to be included and secondly

00:57:32

there you know there was adversity for

00:57:34

the game in New Zealand um and we had

00:57:37

also lost a test series to Australia in

00:57:38

1986 at home so that was adversity also

00:57:42

as well as you know the background stuff

00:57:43

with the Cavaliers so you learn more

00:57:45

from adversity than success so out of

00:57:48

that that those two things the adversity

00:57:50

um and um the wider the talent pool that

00:57:53

ultimately got whittleled down to a 26

00:57:55

strong playing group for the World Cup.

00:57:56

They they were the they were well wasn't

00:57:59

the reason, but they were the su they

00:58:01

were the seeds of success. So yeah, the

00:58:03

1987 Rugby World Cup, the first ever

00:58:06

Rugby World Cup y um which the All

00:58:08

Blacks won. I I I believe there was no

00:58:10

sort of hype around it like when the

00:58:12

tournament started. No, I don't I don't

00:58:13

recall and again this is my memory not

00:58:15

being not being great for something that

00:58:16

happened

00:58:18

how many years ago now? 30 30 whatever

00:58:20

is better. Yeah, you're better at math

00:58:22

than me. Um but yeah, I mean I'm pretty

00:58:25

sure it was Friday the um 20th of May.

00:58:27

Um and someone will prove me wrong here.

00:58:29

Um 1987 we played Italy um to open the

00:58:32

World Cup with a half full Eden Park. No

00:58:35

one knew what to expect. You know, World

00:58:37

Cup World Cup was something that I

00:58:39

understand was pretty strongly driven by

00:58:41

the Southern Hemisphere nations that

00:58:43

ultimately got a support from one or two

00:58:45

northern hemisphere nations who I don't

00:58:46

think were for the idea at all. But

00:58:48

anyway, um it got through and it was

00:58:50

started and you know it was meandering

00:58:52

along to be perfectly honest. Um you

00:58:55

know we were beating Italy but not by

00:58:57

much. It was a muddling sort of first

00:58:58

half. The first try was a penalty try.

00:59:00

Michael Jones scored the first real try.

00:59:03

And I've said this often and I am going

00:59:05

to say it again that what I think still

00:59:06

what lit the World Cup is JK's try. That

00:59:08

was you you set him up. You No, I just

00:59:10

passed. Kirky passed it to me and I

00:59:12

passed it to JK. That's all it was.

00:59:14

Right. A good pass. Um but you know 70

00:59:16

odd meters out and away he went. Right.

00:59:18

And it would just it lit it up I reckon.

00:59:20

But it all but we ultimately put 70 on

00:59:22

Italy. So I think that that started to

00:59:24

build that you know okay maybe we've got

00:59:26

something here in this team and maybe

00:59:27

this event's a little bit more than what

00:59:29

we thought it was. So it built

00:59:30

throughout the tournament and you know

00:59:32

obviously we got through it through pool

00:59:33

play through finals play got to the

00:59:36

final beat France in the final um and

00:59:39

look where look where the World Cup is

00:59:40

now in the Pantheon World events. I mean

00:59:42

it's about the number three most watched

00:59:44

sort of world this style of event in the

00:59:46

world as I understand. So it's or third

00:59:48

or fourth. So it's come a long way.

00:59:51

Yeah, it's crazy. So you win the the

00:59:53

inaugural one in ' 87. Like there's no

00:59:55

way of knowing. We'll get to 91 soon

00:59:57

because you were like the villain of 91

00:59:58

after all blacks didn't win. But who

01:00:00

would have thought it would be like 2011

01:00:03

before we finally won another one. It's

01:00:04

I know it's a long time between Yeah, it

01:00:06

is. I mean it just shows you how hard

01:00:07

they win. I know All Blacks I think at

01:00:10

every World Cup um up until um 2011 had

01:00:14

probably gone in as favorites, right? uh

01:00:16

and hadn't won since 1987 just shows you

01:00:21

how hard they are to win because when

01:00:23

you play a seasonl long you know um uh

01:00:26

tournament that you know like a super

01:00:28

rugby thing that culminates later on and

01:00:30

you got a whole lot of games you can

01:00:31

handles handle a loss of two or three um

01:00:34

um world cup even a loss and pool play

01:00:36

can be terminal um and certainly losing

01:00:38

a final series is terminal so if you

01:00:41

have one bad day at the office you're

01:00:42

done and sadly for the All Blacks that

01:00:44

was a bit of a trend that that plagued

01:00:47

them until we got it right in 2011. And

01:00:49

even in 2011, you know, I'd still argue

01:00:52

we weren't the best team in the final.

01:00:54

We were the best team at the tournament.

01:00:55

We just weren't the best team on the

01:00:56

day, but we found a way to win. Um, and

01:01:00

that had come out of the adversity of of

01:01:02

um 2007 because Richie in particular, as

01:01:06

you know, a young leader in 2007, but a

01:01:08

very experienced leader in 2011, he knew

01:01:10

how to navigate that. him and you know

01:01:12

the the senior guys around knew how to

01:01:13

navigate those tense bloody last sort of

01:01:16

10 or 15 minutes. They knew how to do it

01:01:18

and not not um 2007 they didn't know how

01:01:22

to do it. So again out of adversity you

01:01:25

learn. Yeah 100% you do. Um

01:01:30

so the 87 World Cup did you guys go were

01:01:32

you bulleted? You you based at the

01:01:34

Panamu for the most part right? Uh no we

01:01:36

traveled we traveled so Panamu was the

01:01:38

Oakland base. We we played games in

01:01:40

Wellington and we played games in Christ

01:01:41

Church. What was the bulleting thing?

01:01:43

Was it was that just like It was after

01:01:44

Argent It was after Argentina and

01:01:45

Wellington and pool play and um um Brian

01:01:48

Lahore something he had organized. We

01:01:50

didn't know about it. So the little

01:01:51

little place called Paninoa um I'm

01:01:54

pretty sure I'm right here the late

01:01:55

great Sir Brian Lahore. He just his way

01:01:57

of keeping us grounded, right? And so we

01:01:59

go to this community hall. We had no

01:02:01

idea we're going to be billeted. You

01:02:02

know, it was just like we thought it was

01:02:04

a community event. Good idea. Get in the

01:02:05

rural community. Next one this week

01:02:07

comes in. Well, Fox and Shelfford you

01:02:09

were with. Oh, okay. What's this about?

01:02:12

And so, I think it was only for a couple

01:02:13

of nights, but it was just it was a

01:02:15

master stroke by um BJ, you know, just

01:02:17

to, you know, to to maybe just take us

01:02:21

away from the pressure of the tournament

01:02:22

environment, living in each other's

01:02:24

pockets in a hotel, give us a taste of,

01:02:26

you know, real Kiwi country lifestyle.

01:02:29

Take our mind off for a bit before we

01:02:31

gathered again for an assault on the

01:02:32

finals. So, so you were staying in like

01:02:34

just a house with a family. Yeah. Again,

01:02:36

I can't exactly remember, but yeah, and

01:02:39

I'm pretty sure it was Buck and I were

01:02:40

billeted together. Um, it's funny

01:02:43

enough, my first billet um wasn't um was

01:02:46

going back to 1975 in the Roller Mills

01:02:48

tournament in Otra Honga and I stayed

01:02:50

with the Kudson family. So, I can

01:02:52

remember that, but I can't remember the

01:02:54

fan we stayed at in the W rapper. They

01:02:56

will know who they are, but um yeah, I

01:02:58

just Yeah. Anyway, just the way my brain

01:03:00

works sometimes or doesn't work. Yeah.

01:03:02

Well, it's g these stories, it's a long

01:03:05

time ago. long time ago, but there were,

01:03:06

you know, if there were some kids in

01:03:08

that household, like imagine the impact

01:03:09

that had on had on them. Like, you know,

01:03:11

growing up, I guess. So, but I'd grown

01:03:14

up on a farm, so I loved it, you know,

01:03:16

and Buck was a Navy man, right? So, you

01:03:19

know, I mean, farming was easy, the farm

01:03:21

life. We probably went out and helped

01:03:22

them feed out hay in that, too. I'm

01:03:23

pretty pretty sure we did, but I can't

01:03:25

exactly remember. But it was again it

01:03:27

was just a master stroke of psychology

01:03:29

from from Brian Lor just to change the

01:03:31

frame a little bit to get us set for you

01:03:34

know for a run at the finals. Can you

01:03:36

imagine that now like having a having a

01:03:38

Barrett or a severe staying at your

01:03:39

house for a couple of days like it's

01:03:41

just

01:03:43

and the problem the problem is nowadays

01:03:45

you probably have a media camp on your

01:03:46

doorstep too if that happens. So you you

01:03:49

you wouldn't do that nowadays. There's a

01:03:50

lot the profile of these guys cuz the

01:03:52

way the media is nowadays in some ways

01:03:54

is they're a bit more exposed than we

01:03:56

were. You know, it was mainstream media

01:03:57

in our days. Um and we worked and so I

01:04:00

think there was a certain degree of well

01:04:02

you are um you know you're just like us

01:04:04

in many ways. Nowadays I think that

01:04:06

people feel a bit more ownership and

01:04:08

it's the wrong word. I put it inverted

01:04:09

commas but because these guys earn their

01:04:11

living out of playing the game they feel

01:04:14

maybe they've got a bit more say and a

01:04:15

bit more ownership of it. I don't

01:04:16

believe that at all, but I do think

01:04:18

that's part of the way some people think

01:04:20

sometimes, right? You're earning some of

01:04:22

your wages come from me buying a ticket.

01:04:25

And I don't think that's that's right.

01:04:27

But you know, maybe I've got that wrong,

01:04:29

but you know, I just sort of feel at

01:04:31

times these guys live in a hell of a

01:04:32

fishbowl nowadays. It's you know, I mean

01:04:36

um we had a lot of fun um touring and

01:04:39

these guys, modern day guys don't know

01:04:40

any different either. So they're having

01:04:42

just as much fun. They just didn't they

01:04:44

their funds different than what ours was

01:04:46

doing different things, right? Um yeah,

01:04:48

a lot of that is probably they're aware

01:04:49

of the danger they can get get into with

01:04:51

alcohol, but a lot of it's the iPhone's

01:04:54

a bigger thing, social media, cameras

01:04:56

everywhere, right? Well, I wonder if

01:04:57

part of it is the professionalism angle

01:04:59

as well. Like um yeah, someone like

01:05:00

Ruben Love who takes his fitness

01:05:01

incredibly seriously. Like I wonder if

01:05:03

he's sure. Yeah, but we had guys did it.

01:05:04

It just wasn't in the public arena. It

01:05:06

wasn't a forum for a ride and we didn't

01:05:07

have Instagram or bloody whatever Tik

01:05:09

Tok or that to display all that. him,

01:05:11

you know, we we weren't earning money

01:05:12

off our own our own image rights or

01:05:14

whatever. It was it's just a different

01:05:15

time. I'm not passing judgment. It's

01:05:17

just different.

01:05:20

Yeah, it was a good time, eh? Well,

01:05:24

again, you only know what you know. You

01:05:25

only know what you know. So, where do we

01:05:26

learn from the guys who gone before us,

01:05:28

right? So, you only know what you know.

01:05:30

I mean, you know what we did in those

01:05:32

days, I mean, how many how much beer we

01:05:34

used to consume after games, you'd sort

01:05:35

of frown upon nowadays, but you only

01:05:37

know what you know. Yeah. you know, and

01:05:39

and to be honest, the media couldn't we

01:05:41

couldn't get in trouble with the media

01:05:42

because we played daytime footy. They'd

01:05:44

fold and and or you know, um their

01:05:46

stories. They'd be coming a beer with

01:05:48

us, you know. It wouldn't necessarily be

01:05:50

it wouldn't be in the team room. It

01:05:50

might be at a pub down the road from and

01:05:52

with some locals, you know, that was

01:05:54

just that's the way it was. Yeah.

01:05:57

Yeah. There's changes that happen over

01:05:59

over time for good, but also things that

01:06:01

get lost, which is kind of I mean I mean

01:06:03

not everything that happened nowadays is

01:06:05

better than it was in the old days, but

01:06:06

it is what it is. Yeah. Who who was um

01:06:10

who were your best friends and your

01:06:11

favorite roommates at that time? Oh, I

01:06:12

don't remember favorite room. We used to

01:06:14

get roommed with I mean most often

01:06:15

paired with a half peak but but but a

01:06:17

lot but other times not. So I don't

01:06:19

remember. I just I mean I'd like to

01:06:20

think that I got on well with everybody.

01:06:22

I was intense. I knew that it was the

01:06:24

way that I prepared and played and by

01:06:26

nature I'm that. I'm not I'm not the

01:06:28

practical joker like Alan Whitten was

01:06:30

and not many of the guys were but you

01:06:32

know my I had an intensity about the way

01:06:34

I went about things. I think the guys

01:06:36

knew and understood that. um and gave

01:06:39

you space because we all knew we all had

01:06:41

our own foables and we all had a common

01:06:44

goal on what we were trying to achieve

01:06:45

and we gave each other space to to do it

01:06:48

the way that we thought was best for

01:06:49

ourselves that could contribute to the

01:06:51

team. So I don't recall, you know, um um

01:06:55

you know, favorite roommates or anything

01:06:57

like that. They they changed off often

01:06:59

enough. And that was good for the team

01:07:00

dynamic, too, you know, to make sure

01:07:01

you're mixed up. And you know, one thing

01:07:03

I think that used to happen is if we

01:07:05

had, you know, the if there was an

01:07:07

option of different floors, the guys who

01:07:08

weren't playing in particular, like you

01:07:10

take a big touring group in those days,

01:07:12

we only had six reserves. the the the

01:07:14

rest who were the dirty dirty who were

01:07:16

the other nine of us put down the other

01:07:18

end of the hotel and kept away because

01:07:19

that was a license to have a bit of fun

01:07:21

for a few days still train hard but have

01:07:23

a bit of fun because we weren't playing.

01:07:25

Um so yeah again just things were

01:07:27

different then they are now. What about

01:07:29

the most um underrated player of your

01:07:32

era? Oh again I don't don't sort of

01:07:34

think of things like this Dom at all um

01:07:37

to be honest. I mean, everyone um

01:07:41

um who you you play with were good

01:07:43

enough to be selected by a coach who

01:07:45

believed in them. And you know, like all

01:07:47

all like know all people who play sport

01:07:50

in elite level. Um they're all there for

01:07:53

a reason. They're good enough. Are some

01:07:55

better than others? Yes. That cream

01:07:56

usually rises to the top. Um you know,

01:07:59

we're talking in the studio. you know it

01:08:02

you can identifying X factor talent um I

01:08:05

think is not that hard to do but the X

01:08:07

factor talent that then maximizes that

01:08:09

are the ones that work hardest so you

01:08:11

maximize your your extraordinary talents

01:08:14

with a work ethic and then you get your

01:08:16

Tiger Woods your Roger Federers your

01:08:18

Martin Crows right that's what you get a

01:08:20

whole lot of other people carve out good

01:08:23

careers and they're good enough to win

01:08:25

occasionally you know a random will win

01:08:27

a PJ tour event or random's unfair word

01:08:30

but or a tennis tournament, but they're

01:08:32

good enough and they have their day in

01:08:33

the sun, but they're just not as

01:08:35

consistent because they don't quite have

01:08:36

the talent. They might have the work

01:08:37

ethic, but not quite the talent. That's

01:08:39

what sets them apart, right? So, we have

01:08:41

a lot of guys who, you know, they'd have

01:08:42

an outstanding game and then they'd

01:08:45

still play well, but not be recognized

01:08:47

as such in another game. Still doing

01:08:48

their job very well, but just not having

01:08:50

that one and one, you know, that 10% of

01:08:53

a game I talked about earlier about how

01:08:54

when you're absolutely at your peak. M

01:08:56

it's just it's it's the nature of it's

01:08:58

the nature of high level sport. Yeah. We

01:09:01

were talking earlier pre-podcast about

01:09:03

um Michael Jordan and the Last Dance

01:09:06

documentary series on Netflix.

01:09:08

Phenomenal. You very different sports um

01:09:12

and different eras. But um you you must

01:09:14

have been in some Michael Jordan

01:09:15

situations in in the respect that you

01:09:17

know the game has won or lost depending

01:09:19

on your boot. Yeah. Not very often but

01:09:22

occasionally. Um I mean most lucky

01:09:25

enough that a lot of teams I played in

01:09:26

you know were dominant enough of the

01:09:28

time that and um that I was very rarely

01:09:31

in a situation at the end of a game I

01:09:33

had to kick a goal to win. It did happen

01:09:34

but but um not that often or because you

01:09:37

were dominant you'd you know I'd kick

01:09:39

well as well as a team scoring tries

01:09:41

during the game that at the end of the

01:09:43

game there was not an issue because we

01:09:45

we were winning comfortably enough. Um

01:09:48

and you know yes I succeeded at times I

01:09:50

was in that situation. I failed at times

01:09:51

too. Um, how was that for you? I there's

01:09:55

two things. There's two of them I

01:09:56

remember both at opposite ends of the

01:09:58

spectrum. So, obviously, you know, the

01:09:59

um the 93 lines where I'd um um had

01:10:05

kicked the goal to win a game at was

01:10:06

then Lancaster Park, but I also missed

01:10:09

I'd say go back a year earlier the 1992

01:10:11

tour to Australia, the All Black. So,

01:10:13

they were the world champions in ' 91.

01:10:14

We were rebuilding. They were an

01:10:16

established world champion team and

01:10:17

playing like it too. And we had a three

01:10:19

test series in Australia. Then in the

01:10:21

first test I had a goal kick. I'm not

01:10:23

sure whether whether it was in the last

01:10:24

five or you know five or six minutes.

01:10:26

You know it was a testy kick for me and

01:10:28

those you guys can kick them from that

01:10:30

distance easy nowadays but it was a

01:10:31

testy kick. I missed it and we lost by a

01:10:34

point and I was distraught afterwards

01:10:36

like absolutely cuz the winning of that

01:10:38

game was in my hands and um you know but

01:10:41

I had a team come round me um JK in

01:10:44

particular came pick me up because I

01:10:46

still remember vividly going and sitting

01:10:48

in the showers on my own. I didn't want

01:10:49

to talk to anybody. I was just pissed

01:10:52

off. Um cuz I felt I'd let them down cuz

01:10:55

kicking goals is my job. But JK on the

01:10:58

bus rescued me. And then in the in the

01:11:01

in the team room after we had the old

01:11:02

court session, everyone knows

01:11:03

understands what went on though those

01:11:05

days. Lori Mains came to me. He was a

01:11:07

coach and he he he said, "This is not

01:11:10

your fault." Um so that picked me up,

01:11:13

you know. Then we then we lost the

01:11:14

second test by two points and won the

01:11:16

third by three. still even though we

01:11:18

lost it, I still think the best test

01:11:19

series I ever that I was part of, lucky

01:11:21

enough to be part of that, you know,

01:11:23

they were good side Australia. We were

01:11:24

rebuilding. Um, we scored the same

01:11:26

number of tries, penalties, conversions,

01:11:27

dropped goals, except they won the first

01:11:29

test by one, the second by two, and we

01:11:31

won the third by three. But out of that,

01:11:32

I've still got some great mates, you

01:11:34

know, when Ryan won the other day, first

01:11:36

guy on the phone, Nick Far Jones. Wow.

01:11:39

You know, yeah. So, Australian legend.

01:11:41

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, great

01:11:43

man. Far. So um you know the the the

01:11:46

friendships we developed out of that are

01:11:47

still very strong.

01:11:51

That's um yeah those messages like um

01:11:54

Sir JK and Lori Mains like releasing you

01:11:57

from the guilt did Yeah. Did that but

01:11:58

that but that was that was about team.

01:12:00

Yeah. Right. And that was about a mate

01:12:02

hurting and and um that's what good

01:12:04

mates do and good and good teams do you

01:12:07

know because the nature of um of um

01:12:10

doesn't matter what level you play at

01:12:12

and when you are when you are playing

01:12:13

for a result because there is a winner

01:12:15

and a loser or sometimes you draw but

01:12:17

winner and a loser well um you're going

01:12:20

to experience highs but you're going to

01:12:22

have lows too you know and that's just

01:12:24

the nature of you put yourself out there

01:12:25

and want to do it it's not all bear and

01:12:26

skittles you don't always get what you

01:12:28

want and you got to learn to to cope

01:12:30

with um um and be gracious about defeat,

01:12:34

but learn from it and try and get better

01:12:36

from it.

01:12:38

So, the the 1999 1991 Rugby World Cup,

01:12:42

so there's the 871, which we won. By the

01:12:44

way, you scored a drop goal 14 minutes

01:12:46

into the final. Y um the 1991 Rugby

01:12:50

World Cup, I' I've forgotten all about

01:12:52

this. I'm guessing a lot of people

01:12:53

listening or watching this would have as

01:12:54

well, but um reading your book, which

01:12:56

what what year did your book come out?

01:12:58

92. Okay. So this was very very So this

01:13:01

is a year later and fresh at the time.

01:13:04

Um yeah you you were like um public

01:13:06

enemy number one like you were you were

01:13:08

like a a villain. Yeah. Didn't play very

01:13:09

well and I and I I was playing on an

01:13:12

injury. Um but there was a lot I mean

01:13:14

the team our team we' had a great period

01:13:17

from 87 through to um 1991

01:13:20

sorry 1990. Uh we had won uh 23 tests in

01:13:25

a row um with uh one draw. It's still a

01:13:28

record I think in those days we played

01:13:30

touring games and there was 50 games

01:13:32

undefeated in a row. Um and a very

01:13:36

senior experienced group but you know

01:13:39

there were some of us starting to

01:13:40

struggle a bit um and we were still

01:13:42

selected um because we still had a great

01:13:44

desire to be there but you know we

01:13:45

probably weren't where we needed to be.

01:13:47

I had injured a um uh we toured

01:13:51

Argentina earlier before the World Cup

01:13:52

and id injured um a muscle a sort of

01:13:56

stomach muscle attached to the pubic

01:13:57

bone that I' the pubic bone's joined by

01:13:59

a piece of cartilage and I'd severed

01:14:01

that and so my pelvis was unstable and

01:14:04

so it was a it was I was really battling

01:14:07

um I was often told at the time that

01:14:10

this will take 12 months to heal and you

01:14:11

can't play well that wasn't an option

01:14:13

for me so I just I worked my way through

01:14:15

with a lot of treatment 3 days a week on

01:14:16

a massage table with a guy called George

01:14:19

Duncan. Um, you know, I played in sort

01:14:21

of neoprene bloody um, like wets suit

01:14:24

shorts, like undies, trying to get blood

01:14:26

into there and get it warm. I mean, it

01:14:28

was just I couldn't practice like I

01:14:29

wanted to cuz it hurt like bloody hell.

01:14:31

The benefit of hindsight, I should have

01:14:32

taken myself out, right? And nowadays,

01:14:34

you would. Um, but, you know, I got

01:14:37

picked and I didn't play very well, you

01:14:39

know. Um, the team was struggling. Um,

01:14:41

we had the, you know, Alex was the

01:14:43

coach. um you know um he was John Hart

01:14:46

was put with him. I still believe there

01:14:48

are made an error here. They still both

01:14:50

great coaches in their own right. Um but

01:14:53

um they should have either endorsed Alex

01:14:55

or sacked him. Mhm. May rest in peace.

01:14:58

But um they didn't. They put them

01:15:00

together. Two very different people, two

01:15:01

very good coaches, but just completely

01:15:04

different approaches. So that behind the

01:15:06

scenes I don't think helped at all. Um

01:15:08

and the team was struggling. and we

01:15:09

played against an Aussie team that was

01:15:10

on the up and on the day they deserved

01:15:12

to beat us and they did did comfortably.

01:15:14

I still remember that day that we had

01:15:16

struggled in the tournament. We got to a

01:15:17

semi and thought okay we we can still do

01:15:19

this and I can remember we had a a

01:15:22

calling system and it was always towards

01:15:24

me towards Michael Jones or Alan went um

01:15:26

and AJ was gone by then. Um Michael

01:15:29

mainly so where the where's the ball

01:15:31

going to be? Where what channel are we

01:15:32

attacking? So Michael knew as he pulled

01:15:33

his head out where he was going so he

01:15:35

could you know get a head start. And

01:15:38

when I think back now, the calling

01:15:39

system was so basic that anyone who was

01:15:41

listening could pick it up. Well, Simon

01:15:42

Pivan could pick it up. So, everyone's

01:15:44

like, Po, how the hell are you there? He

01:15:47

deciphered our code system. So, we just

01:15:50

battled, right? And talk about radar was

01:15:52

still relatively in its infancy. And,

01:15:54

you know, Gary was the captain, so he

01:15:56

wasn't popular either. So, we coped it.

01:15:58

Um, and you know, coping it for

01:16:01

performance is fine, but some of it I

01:16:02

think went beyond performance. Um, and

01:16:04

got personal. I mean, you know, Dom,

01:16:07

when it gets to a point when you've got

01:16:10

a um a four-year-old son who's not

01:16:14

unaware of what's going on around him,

01:16:16

who's saying to my wife, "What's daddy

01:16:17

done wrong?" You know, it's not right.

01:16:20

You know, the kid, they shouldn't be

01:16:21

that, you know, that shouldn't be going

01:16:23

performance. Yes. Other judgments um you

01:16:26

know, just went a bit far. Yeah. Yeah.

01:16:29

How do you when you reflect on that now

01:16:31

like it's a long time ago but like does

01:16:33

it does does it bring it back up and

01:16:35

make you feel angry or is it a sense of

01:16:36

No, it doesn't. No, no, no. Because I've

01:16:38

consigned that to the past. But but what

01:16:40

is interesting is that that to be I

01:16:42

generally felt I just I don't need this

01:16:44

in my life. I'm going to retire. But I

01:16:46

didn't want to make the decision while I

01:16:48

was emotional because I was I was you

01:16:50

know very upset that you know that we

01:16:52

hadn't achieved what we set out to do.

01:16:53

upset with myself. Um, you know, pissed

01:16:56

off with, you know, the narrative that

01:16:58

was out there that was, you know, more

01:17:00

than what it needed to be. I got there

01:17:02

was going to get some. I just thought it

01:17:04

was more than what it needed to be. Um,

01:17:06

and people put themselves in my shoes.

01:17:08

They I defy them to feel any different.

01:17:11

It's easier when you when you're loading

01:17:12

the gun and pulling the bullets if

01:17:13

you're the one firing the shot. If

01:17:14

you're the one at the other end, it's a

01:17:16

different scenario. Um, so I then

01:17:19

decided I'm not going to let I love this

01:17:22

game. I want to play with my mates. I'm

01:17:24

not going to let that the the naysayers

01:17:27

beat me and I'm going to I want to keep

01:17:29

playing. Uh cuz the decision for me was

01:17:31

partly about if I had if I had to play

01:17:33

one year, I had to play two years

01:17:34

because the Lions were coming in 93. And

01:17:36

my thought was, well, to be fair to the

01:17:38

All Blacks, if I'm good enough and they

01:17:40

want me, I've got to commit for two

01:17:41

years. I can't just do one. they need to

01:17:43

start the be building the new 58, have

01:17:45

the new 58 ready to go by the time I

01:17:47

stop if I'm still good enough to be

01:17:49

picked. Um, so that was part of and I'm

01:17:52

I'm glad I did that. Um, and the funny

01:17:54

thing is now we talked about it even in

01:17:56

your introduction. So no, no one's

01:17:58

remembering the negative stuff at 91 are

01:17:59

they? Yes, we know about it, but the

01:18:02

memory, your judgment now is very

01:18:03

different, you know, whereas back at

01:18:04

that time that's like they're they're at

01:18:06

you. Nowadays with time passing and the

01:18:10

career as a whole as opposed to an

01:18:12

isolated pocket, the jud the lens is

01:18:14

different. Yeah. So again, I'd cleanly

01:18:16

forgotten about this, but then reading

01:18:17

reading your book, I've got a passage

01:18:19

here. This is um a part of your book, a

01:18:20

chapter that was written by Adele.

01:18:22

Adele, who it's the first chapter of the

01:18:23

book. Yeah. Yeah. Which um you can tell

01:18:26

she's emotional about it when she's when

01:18:28

she's writing. like it's um it's an

01:18:29

angry chapter. Um and it's actually

01:18:32

heartbreaking to read as well. Our son

01:18:34

Ryan is five. He loves to hold a ball of

01:18:36

any shape or a bat or racket.

01:18:39

But may he never have to tolerate such

01:18:41

criticism as has come his father's way.

01:18:44

And may he never indulge in it at the

01:18:46

expense of others. I think you've done

01:18:48

well. He hasn't. Right. That's that's

01:18:49

right. Um that too will be part of his

01:18:53

education. Uh he has heard comments on

01:18:56

radio and they have bewildered him. He

01:18:58

asks, "Why do they say that about daddy?

01:19:00

What did daddy do wrong?"

01:19:03

That's when you know it's wrong. It's

01:19:04

devastating. That's wrong. Um

01:19:08

how do you deal with this? Um I mean,

01:19:10

I'd argue it's all it's worse nowadays,

01:19:12

too, because we just had talkback radio

01:19:14

and mainstream media out. What do I got

01:19:17

to deal with? And I don't I mean my my

01:19:20

promise if someone

01:19:23

um and there's a lot and Adele also said

01:19:25

there's a lot that went on behind the

01:19:27

scenes away from the Rabie Field in

01:19:29

terms of you know giving time to with

01:19:32

others who are less fortunate than you.

01:19:35

You talked about that your the impact

01:19:37

that you had on um a sick young boy and

01:19:38

also some elderly people. Yeah. So um

01:19:41

but that's just No one wants to know

01:19:42

about that though in the media do they?

01:19:44

No not really. No. Um, and not but if we

01:19:47

don't tell them about it, they're not to

01:19:49

know. So, not I won't blame it's their

01:19:50

fault. The only thing I would say is

01:19:52

that, you know, it happens today. I, you

01:19:55

know, there's a lot of talk about where

01:19:57

social media fits now and how negative

01:19:59

it can be. I just hide the hate the fact

01:20:01

that a whole lot of people hide behind

01:20:03

pseudonyms, right, and handles. If you

01:20:06

want to you want to do it, you got to my

01:20:08

law I'd make is your real name's got to

01:20:10

be on it. M put your real name on it and

01:20:12

see if you're prepared to say the same

01:20:13

things because then we know who you are

01:20:15

properly and we can respond properly.

01:20:17

But if you hide behind a mask, well,

01:20:21

everyone can be brave behind a maskless.

01:20:23

It's gutless, right? So that's it. And

01:20:25

then and and you know, we did get

01:20:27

letters that weren't signed, right? Cuz

01:20:29

that was that was a landscape. That was

01:20:31

the landscape in those days, right? Be

01:20:32

people who didn't sign letters. You

01:20:34

know, if someone wanted to rip rip me

01:20:36

and but was prepared to put a name and

01:20:38

address so I could respond if I wanted

01:20:40

to, fine. Without an address and without

01:20:42

a name, gutless. Yeah. Adele talked

01:20:45

about that while while Grant was still

01:20:46

in Britain for the World Cup, a letter

01:20:48

was sent to him care of New Zealand

01:20:49

Rugby Union and it was passed on to me.

01:20:51

It contained a newspaper clipping and

01:20:53

scrolled around it were derogatory

01:20:54

comments uh clearly designed to hurt.

01:20:57

That's outrageous. I just I can't

01:20:59

understand the mentality of some people,

01:21:01

right? you know, I mean, these people

01:21:03

have got to think back to their own

01:21:04

lives and think, well, mate may, you

01:21:05

know, at times I didn't get everything I

01:21:07

wanted and I didn't achieve and but

01:21:09

yeah, okay, we're not we're not we were

01:21:11

an escape for some people, I guess,

01:21:12

because, you know, um and the All

01:21:15

Black's history and legacy got a lot to

01:21:16

do with it. I wouldn't change it for

01:21:17

quits, right? Because the expectations

01:21:19

are enormous. No bigger than what the

01:21:21

team put on themselves. In fact, the

01:21:23

team's expectations are bigger and I

01:21:24

don't want that ever to change. Just at

01:21:27

times you got to think there's a human

01:21:28

being on the end of this and they have a

01:21:30

family and they have parents, right? And

01:21:32

if the boot was on the other foot,

01:21:33

what's the saying? Treat treat unto

01:21:35

others treat treat others as you want to

01:21:37

be treated or something. All right. So I

01:21:40

just think you certain principles you

01:21:42

should live by and I think that's one of

01:21:43

them. Yeah. And it was it was around

01:21:46

this time and I I I again didn't know

01:21:48

anything about this until the book but

01:21:50

um there was like a big like nationwide

01:21:52

rumor about you and Buck Shelfford

01:21:53

having a fight. Yeah. Never had

01:21:55

laughable. Never. With all due respect,

01:21:57

I'd waste you, right? You You think I'd

01:21:59

be dumb enough to take him on, right? I

01:22:02

mean, you know, we It was And look,

01:22:05

again, I don't remember this that

01:22:06

vividly. It was a long time ago now, but

01:22:08

you know, it was a game um was it

01:22:11

Scotland? No, it wasn't. Oh, it might

01:22:13

have been Scotland. And um and the game

01:22:17

had I think we' won, but it hadn't gone

01:22:19

that well. And you know, Buck made a

01:22:20

comment about about um he's you know,

01:22:23

asked by media and his

01:22:26

response was a typical direct buck

01:22:28

comment about you know me being the

01:22:30

general in the eyes and ears and it

01:22:31

wasn't complimentary but it wasn't meant

01:22:32

to be derogatory either it was just a

01:22:34

statement of fact and he would have been

01:22:35

right but all of a sudden this is like

01:22:37

there's fisty cuffs I mean it never

01:22:39

happened but that rumor still persists

01:22:41

to this day right that it's still it's

01:22:43

it's rubbish and Buck would Buck would

01:22:45

confirm that it did not happen right and

01:22:48

and look he got you know he got dropped

01:22:51

and he clearly wasn't happy about it and

01:22:53

um Um and and with some people that

01:22:56

resonates to this day. You see, it's

01:22:58

like, well, so you got to got to let

01:22:59

things go. The the sad thing at all of

01:23:01

that is that look, Buck was a great

01:23:03

leader and a great player, right? Um and

01:23:06

didn't lose as an all black captain. Um

01:23:09

and and was, you know, a great statesman

01:23:11

for our game. What's often lost in this?

01:23:13

Who was the next number eight? Zenzan

01:23:15

Brookke. M well I mean I felt sorry for

01:23:17

Zen in this period too because he wasn't

01:23:19

getting the recognition he deserved for

01:23:21

being a very a number of a very

01:23:23

different skill set um but an emerging

01:23:26

talent going on to become a great player

01:23:28

that we could all see. So I felt a bit

01:23:30

sorry for Zinn in this narrative because

01:23:32

he just he didn't get the recognism that

01:23:34

he he deserved. It was all on Buck and I

01:23:36

get that but it was just you know Zinny

01:23:39

did all right. He had a hell of a

01:23:40

career. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um

01:23:42

yeah, but it must have been hard and and

01:23:43

yeah, the whole I I I do um remember the

01:23:46

bring back Buck campaign. It became like

01:23:47

what you'd call a meme. You still see it

01:23:49

occasionally, which in a funny way is

01:23:51

great. I mean, you know, I mean, as I

01:23:53

said, I mean, I I mean, I don't see Buck

01:23:56

that often. And and you know, a lot of

01:23:58

us I mean, we got a group together to go

01:24:00

down to Al Alex's memorial service,

01:24:02

right? And you know, um um Grizz dropped

01:24:05

Buck, right? Um, and it was, you know,

01:24:08

it wasn't, um, you know, there would, it

01:24:11

wasn't easy at the time. It's probably

01:24:13

the wrong word, but I'll use that. But

01:24:15

when I circulate the boys an email

01:24:17

saying, "Hey guys, we all played with

01:24:18

them." You know, the group was, you

01:24:21

know, I'd like to go down. You want to

01:24:22

come? Well, within a heartbeat, bang,

01:24:23

bang, they come back. Buck is one of

01:24:24

them. Yep. I'm in. Right. And so you you

01:24:27

you wouldn't I mean, that's just the

01:24:29

man, right? That's who the man is,

01:24:31

right? So a group of us went, eight of

01:24:32

us went down, right, to go and um honor

01:24:35

Alex because we had had great success

01:24:38

with him. Great time. He was our all

01:24:39

black coach. Um sadly not with us

01:24:42

anymore. He had had a private uh a

01:24:45

private family um service. Um but at

01:24:48

Glen Mark and it was cool, you know, go

01:24:49

down went and we got all black manager

01:24:51

at the time uh with Alex, a guy called

01:24:53

John Sturgeon. Sturgeis nearly 90. He

01:24:56

was in a hospital in Christ Church and

01:24:58

so groupers went and saw Sturgey um

01:25:00

which we love that man and so he was you

01:25:02

know there were tears when we everyone

01:25:03

saw each other and then we went out to

01:25:05

Glenmark where most of us had never

01:25:06

been. So that was pretty cool to go out

01:25:08

the Glen Mark rugby club and you know

01:25:10

see some old players that we you know

01:25:12

like Warrick Taylor and Victor Simpson

01:25:14

and you know John Mills and John Bucken

01:25:16

and guys like that we'd played Donnie

01:25:18

Hayes was there. Um it's just great to

01:25:20

catch up with those guys in a you know

01:25:22

situation that you know we wish Alex was

01:25:24

still with us but you know that time

01:25:25

comes to us all and it was a great way

01:25:27

to you know remember Alex and honor him

01:25:29

and then for for some of us to have a

01:25:31

yarn we hadn't seen each other in years.

01:25:34

Oh how good

01:25:37

during that period in um ' 91 92 like

01:25:40

how was your mental health in that

01:25:41

period? Uh fine I think. Yeah. I mean,

01:25:44

if I think back now, judged by today's

01:25:46

standards, I they might have classed me

01:25:48

as depressed, but I don't remember that

01:25:49

at all. Um, you know, I was a I was a

01:25:52

farm boy, bought up, you know, bought up

01:25:54

to be a bit staunch in that area. Um,

01:25:57

what was the time, wasn't it? It was

01:25:58

hard. Yeah. Just hard enough. Yeah. No,

01:26:00

no, to be honest, I played I played all

01:26:02

my career with John Cuban. I didn't see

01:26:05

them his mental health issues. Not once

01:26:07

was a witness that I could say, I got a

01:26:09

mate who's struggling, which is more on

01:26:10

me than him. Um, but I never noticed it.

01:26:13

And yet look look at the stories that

01:26:15

you know JK and he's changed mental

01:26:17

health for men in this country. That's

01:26:18

why God has kned not for his services to

01:26:20

rugby though deserved it for that for

01:26:21

his services to mental health because he

01:26:23

made it okay for men to be vulnerable

01:26:27

in a big way. You've had him on the

01:26:28

podcast. I've talked about him to

01:26:29

numerous other people. Like I can't

01:26:31

imagine how terrifying it was for him to

01:26:33

speak publicly about it when he did cuz

01:26:35

I mean it's he he set the platform now

01:26:38

where it's very easy for men to talk

01:26:39

about vulnerability. So we talk in the

01:26:41

old black now we talk about

01:26:42

vulnerability right because

01:26:43

vulnerability is a strength not a

01:26:44

weakness right but we were all meant to

01:26:46

be staunch that was way bought up

01:26:48

actually you need help ask for help it's

01:26:50

not a weakness I mean I can remember um

01:26:53

and look um JK is probably the former

01:26:56

player I talk to most nowadays right um

01:26:59

but um when he became blues coach we

01:27:02

we've both got houses at W Beach and the

01:27:04

surf club had rung and they for

01:27:05

fundraiser over Chris has wanted to set

01:27:07

up a little function and they asked me

01:27:09

would I come and speak I said, "Well,

01:27:10

yeah, but me alone's not enough." Um,

01:27:13

and I only do question and answer. I

01:27:14

don't do sort of keynote speaking. So,

01:27:16

I'll ring I'll ring JK because if we get

01:27:17

the both of us, it might work. So, I

01:27:19

rang JK. He said, "Yeah, mate. No

01:27:21

problem." So, I said to Surf Club

01:27:23

president, you know, we need an MC. We

01:27:24

need SP we need the microphone, need it

01:27:26

all set up properly, so that would work

01:27:28

in the room. We're in the surf club

01:27:30

anyway. JK drives down as he's a head

01:27:32

coach. He drives down um and the Blues

01:27:35

would turn up and no MC. There is a

01:27:38

speaker in that, but there's no MC and

01:27:39

I'm I don't like doing this stuff. JK

01:27:42

said, "Foxy, I got this." So, he gets up

01:27:44

on stage. We're in Chief's country,

01:27:46

right? And his blues gear. And he just

01:27:49

said, "How like my kit?" Well, everyone

01:27:51

laughed. And um anyway, we just we

01:27:54

talked rugby off the floor for about 40

01:27:56

minutes and then had a wee break and

01:27:58

then came back and JK did a mental

01:28:00

health thing. I told you for the next 40

01:28:02

minutes he just talked let people ask

01:28:04

questions and talk you it was

01:28:05

unbelievable what I saw him do um you

01:28:08

know to a point guy a guy asked a

01:28:10

question and JK said mate are you okay

01:28:14

cuz I can see you're hurting for so

01:28:16

while we'd had 40 minutes of laughter we

01:28:19

had 40 minutes of deathly quiet it was

01:28:21

remarkable um how the response was in

01:28:24

this room and he's got better and better

01:28:26

at it but I just I I was witness to it

01:28:28

that day and thought wow Um, and look

01:28:31

what he's done for, as I said, for for

01:28:33

men's mental health in this country.

01:28:35

Yeah. Did he tell Did he tell the

01:28:36

incredible story he tells about um the

01:28:39

Iceman, Michael Jones?

01:28:42

So, they you were probably on the same

01:28:43

tour. So, they were in Argentina. Yeah.

01:28:46

Staying staying on this I think the

01:28:47

seventh floor he said of some hotel and

01:28:49

he was contemplating like just diving up

01:28:51

the Sorry. I heard this recently. I

01:28:53

heard this recently. Yeah. It might have

01:28:55

been It might have been um on your

01:28:57

podcast. He did. It was a podcast I

01:28:58

heard him on. one of the new one talked

01:29:00

about jumping jumping out window. Yeah,

01:29:02

I only heard that recently. Yeah. Yeah.

01:29:03

And Sir Michael Jones was on the bed

01:29:05

next to him. They were rooming at the

01:29:06

time and just out of the blue um he just

01:29:09

said um JK, you've got a good heart.

01:29:11

Yeah. And um that's what stopped him in

01:29:13

that moment and kept him going for the

01:29:14

next one. It's powerful stuff. Yeah, it

01:29:16

is really incredible. Yeah. What was

01:29:18

What was he like? Are you still in touch

01:29:19

with Sir Michael? Yeah, occasionally. I

01:29:21

mean, when Ryan won the other day, the

01:29:22

Iceman, there's a text comes from the

01:29:24

Iceman. So again, I mean, he's a busy

01:29:25

man, right? Um, and we're all busy with

01:29:27

our own families and our own lives. Um,

01:29:29

but we've all got each other's numbers

01:29:30

and so it's not, you know, as I said, I

01:29:32

mean, I ring JK regularly. Um, Gary

01:29:35

Witten, Wrigley, Joe Stanley. Um, um,

01:29:40

JK, AJ, Joe. Yeah, those guys. They're

01:29:42

regular ones, right? Ben McCall's got an

01:29:44

email circular going. He regularly keeps

01:29:46

in touch with the boys. Terry, right, we

01:29:48

saw recently, but Terry's been overseas

01:29:49

for a long time, but is back now, you

01:29:51

know, caught up with Stevia McDall. I

01:29:53

mean just you know nothing changes you

01:29:56

know nothing changes but we just all got

01:29:59

all got our busy lives but um so it's

01:30:02

cool it's cool because that that that

01:30:04

closeness is through a shared experience

01:30:06

and a bond created from those

01:30:08

experiences um and you know we're all

01:30:11

you know and we got a lot more to talk

01:30:12

about we don't talk about rugby we all

01:30:14

talk about family you know because we

01:30:16

all sort of know what each other's doing

01:30:17

in that regard and you know a lot of us

01:30:19

are grandparents now so you know that's

01:30:21

the great joy we can talk about our and

01:30:23

kids. We're not talking about footy

01:30:24

anymore. So, well, I suppose when you

01:30:26

get to if you're lucky enough,

01:30:27

privileged enough to get to this stage

01:30:28

of life, you realize what's important

01:30:30

and you know what, reminiscing is is

01:30:33

fun. Um, but yeah, it's not No, I mean,

01:30:36

it is fun, but it's not. I mean, life

01:30:38

end of the day. You know, the family is

01:30:40

the most important thing in your life.

01:30:42

Um and that's you know one of the

01:30:43

reasons that you know ultimately the key

01:30:46

reason I stepped away from being

01:30:47

involved with the All Blacks. Um in

01:30:50

20202

01:30:52

I think that's right. Um where I had

01:30:56

um yeah I'm trying to work this out now.

01:30:58

2019 20. Yeah 22 it was. um I stepped

01:31:01

away because I just been I'd had 40

01:31:03

years of the game at first class level

01:31:06

um playing done some you know media work

01:31:09

television work um sele coaching

01:31:11

selecting with the odd little break in

01:31:13

between but it was just time you know

01:31:15

with grandkids you know how to spell

01:31:17

love to your kids t same for the

01:31:18

grandkids so just you know and for a dal

01:31:21

who I'd taken up so much of her time

01:31:22

over 40 years and we've been together

01:31:24

you know we've been married for 40 years

01:31:25

it was just and my I just want to be at

01:31:28

home I'm happy I'm happy at home go to

01:31:30

our beach house, work around home, play

01:31:32

with the grandkids, you know, it's it's

01:31:34

simple, but there's just so much reward

01:31:36

out of that. Jeez, why beach must be

01:31:38

like a hot bed of ex all blacks. It is.

01:31:40

It is. It's a real hot Gatlin's got a

01:31:42

place there, doesn't he? Getty's had a

01:31:44

place there. Smithy lives there, right?

01:31:46

Mills has got a place there. Graham

01:31:48

Pervvis has brought not that long ago,

01:31:49

but Pervy's actually a valley boy by

01:31:52

lives in Wellington, but a Tims Valley

01:31:53

Boy by by birth. Um um I've seen uh who

01:31:57

else is around there now? Um get I mean

01:32:01

Kevin Schuler was there for a while not

01:32:03

there anymore. Um Jeff Hines has got a

01:32:05

place there. Remember him played for

01:32:07

Wetto. Um All Black at age 19 from

01:32:10

number seven. Hines is there. Um there's

01:32:12

a great little bar there um that Bryce

01:32:15

Beavenon who's a former um Oakland

01:32:17

player and varsity player who's um was a

01:32:19

prop and Bryce's done various things but

01:32:22

he's just set up a little bar in the

01:32:24

main street um and it hums. It

01:32:27

absolutely harms. And Brycy just turns

01:32:30

up to work in jandles, shorts, t-shirt,

01:32:32

and an apron. Um, spends probably more

01:32:35

time drinking with the patrons. And you

01:32:36

you just got a bit of chalkboard on the

01:32:38

bar and your your bloody your tabs

01:32:40

there. You chalk it up. Oh, that'll be

01:32:42

50 bucks. I mean, it's it's hilarious.

01:32:44

It's absolutely But we all we all But

01:32:46

often you've seen I've been in there,

01:32:48

you know, with JK Smithy, Joe, Jeff

01:32:51

Hines, me, Millsy, all in the bar

01:32:54

together. It's just Oh, I tell you who's

01:32:55

Bryce Lawrence, the former referee's got

01:32:57

a place there. Uh Stevie Dolman. So, um

01:32:59

the the not Stevie Dolman. Um

01:33:03

James Dolman, the referee, right? He's

01:33:06

got a place. Well, his parents got a

01:33:07

place there. So, it's not just the

01:33:09

players. There's some some color

01:33:11

referees got places there, too. Good.

01:33:13

That's good. That's a great great place.

01:33:15

Hey, so in in 1994, you were on I I

01:33:18

watched this the other day on um there's

01:33:20

a website called NZ on screen. Um, you

01:33:22

were on the greatest reality show of all

01:33:24

time, This Is Your Life. Um, yeah. When

01:33:28

was the last time you watched that? Uh,

01:33:29

just recently, actually. Did you? Why?

01:33:32

Because, um, um, we' had lunch in the

01:33:35

December. Dave Morrison and I with with

01:33:37

Lorraine, you know, um, Marty's partner.

01:33:40

Um, and we we try and catch up with

01:33:42

Lorraine at least a couple of times a

01:33:44

year. um hadn't always worked, but um

01:33:47

we'd got together at lunch and when um

01:33:49

within a day of that, Lraine just sent a

01:33:51

link through. So that's and cuz Marty

01:33:55

was was part of that as well. So I just

01:33:58

clicked the phone and Adele and I we

01:34:00

just sat we sat on the couch and watched

01:34:02

it. I hadn't I I don't think I'd

01:34:04

rewatched it. I can remember one

01:34:06

Christmas we had a lot of people around,

01:34:08

my family around and some others, and

01:34:10

this is in the VHS days. Um and Nadal

01:34:12

had um um put um the VHS on. I don't

01:34:17

know how this happened. The kids might

01:34:18

have been funnering through and found

01:34:19

the tape and plucked it on. And there

01:34:21

was a lot of people who hadn't seen it.

01:34:23

And by this I mean there was probably 15

01:34:25

or 16 people at our place. And the these

01:34:28

kids they just and a lot of them kids

01:34:30

just sat down and watched it because

01:34:31

they they hadn't seen it. They didn't

01:34:32

really know about it. So which was nice,

01:34:34

right? It's a nice memory to have, you

01:34:36

know, big surprise. Um um but yeah, a

01:34:40

privilege to to be to be recognized that

01:34:42

way. Yeah. And it's um I mean you're one

01:34:45

of an elect group of New Zealanders that

01:34:46

got to be a guest on that show. It's

01:34:48

like due to costs involved and other

01:34:50

logistics. It's never going to happen

01:34:51

again, but it's a wonderful format of a

01:34:53

show. Did you Was it honestly a

01:34:55

surprise? Yeah, for me it was. How How

01:34:57

can you I had no idea. I honestly had it

01:35:00

was Well, so as I understand it, there's

01:35:04

a lot goes on behind the scenes, right?

01:35:05

cuz they need um they need um my you

01:35:09

know need information from people. So a

01:35:11

lot of people get talked about and they

01:35:13

they are sworn to secrecy. Adele was

01:35:15

obviously talked to and she was sworn to

01:35:17

secrecy. Um I mean and I remember this

01:35:20

now but at the time an ad had come on TV

01:35:23

about it and and and Adele would be

01:35:25

saying to Ryan um change your channel,

01:35:27

change your channel. And now it sort of

01:35:30

I should have worked it out but I didn't

01:35:31

at the time. So Ryan Ryan was in on it,

01:35:33

but as a four-year-old, it's like I know

01:35:34

what was it, 94, four, seven, seveny

01:35:37

old, right? Um,

01:35:40

how do you do this? Um Um, Adele's mom

01:35:43

and dad knew about it because they were

01:35:45

initially going to look after the kids

01:35:46

while Adele was on stage. So all of it

01:35:47

was all Clanderstein and I knew nothing.

01:35:50

I genuinely knew nothing. So when Bob

01:35:52

Parker came and stood beside me was a

01:35:54

big surprise cuz I just thought it was a

01:35:56

rubby function to honor, you know, a

01:35:58

good or all those guys that got

01:36:00

together. But there wasn't there was

01:36:01

something else sitting behind it. Do you

01:36:03

still have the book? The actual This is

01:36:04

your life. Yeah, I don't I will have it

01:36:07

because I've got a lot of that at home.

01:36:08

It'll be tucked away somewhere. It

01:36:10

doesn't have front and center. I don't

01:36:11

It's not how generally our household

01:36:13

works, but it's tucked in there

01:36:15

somewhere. Yeah, I can get that about

01:36:17

the the household. You mentioned

01:36:18

something before about Adele not letting

01:36:19

you hang up. I think she'd be more

01:36:21

relaxed about it now, but she didn't

01:36:22

want necessarily this taken up, right?

01:36:24

But yeah, we have talked more recently

01:36:25

about doing it, but I probably won't get

01:36:28

round to it. I'm probably just happy

01:36:30

where it is. And you know, I think in

01:36:32

time that'll be a handme-down that maybe

01:36:34

it'll be more the grandkids will will

01:36:35

like it more that when they're at at an

01:36:37

age where they can perhaps reconcile

01:36:40

this be more important to them. Yeah.

01:36:42

You also your memories they generally

01:36:43

sit in here, don't they? Yeah. Well,

01:36:45

here and here.

01:36:47

Um and then the um the MBE in 1995,

01:36:50

member of British Empire. Yeah. It was a

01:36:52

huge honor. Yeah. Huge honor. Yeah. um

01:36:54

you know um get a you get a letter

01:36:56

asking someone obviously work behind the

01:36:59

scenes to nominate you and you go

01:37:01

through a process and lucky and know I

01:37:03

didn't know about any of that you just

01:37:04

get a letter that you've been nominated

01:37:05

and you know do you accept and then you

01:37:07

do you accept and then you get then you

01:37:09

go to you know and then um um the

01:37:12

ceremony at government house down in

01:37:13

Wellington so we went down my mother

01:37:15

came down as well as Adele so that was a

01:37:17

really neat time another neat time that

01:37:19

happened is my father-in-law the late MV

01:37:21

Wallace also got it um he's been passed

01:37:24

for a while now, but MV wasn't well

01:37:26

enough at the time when it happened. So,

01:37:27

we held a function at our home and the

01:37:30

governor general came. Sylvia Cartrite

01:37:31

came to our home um and um MV got his

01:37:36

ceremony done at home with all a lot of

01:37:38

his old cricket mates and friends and

01:37:40

cousins and our family was a really neat

01:37:42

I can't remember the year exactly, but

01:37:44

it was while MV was still alive, but

01:37:46

just not well enough healthwise to

01:37:48

actually get on a plane and go to

01:37:49

Wellington.

01:37:50

Yeah. Did those did those things in '94

01:37:52

and '95 so this is your life and then

01:37:54

the MBA did that sort of like remove the

01:37:56

sting from a couple of years earlier the

01:37:59

sting had gone I mean not even thinking

01:38:01

about that you know I mean that's you

01:38:03

know um as I said in the start when you

01:38:06

play play oh it's like a lot of things

01:38:09

in life right but you I mean it's it's

01:38:11

ups and downs it's not always up you're

01:38:12

going to have downs I had periods where

01:38:14

it wasn't so good and but more periods

01:38:16

where it was good so um um but that

01:38:19

because you're not competing anymore.

01:38:22

That's it does go and you you don't

01:38:24

forget but you just park them away and

01:38:26

you know I guess you choose not to bloom

01:38:28

and remember unless someone like you

01:38:29

brings them up but anyway

01:38:31

sorry. Yeah. So then um Jeez. Yeah.

01:38:35

You've been so generous with your time.

01:38:36

I just turned the air con on and No

01:38:37

problem. How you going? You right? Yeah.

01:38:39

Good. Do you enjoy reflecting or just on

01:38:41

some aspects of it and not some aspects

01:38:43

of it or I don't mind having a yard.

01:38:45

Right. It's bloody great. You're a dream

01:38:47

guest for me. Well, we don't get we're

01:38:48

at an age now where we don't get this

01:38:50

opportunity very often. So, um I mean

01:38:52

it's not it's not this is the only I

01:38:54

don't even class this as media. We were

01:38:56

talking before we did we did this that

01:38:58

um I just don't engage anymore because

01:39:00

it's other people's turn and you know um

01:39:03

the world we live in, you know, why why

01:39:04

would you put yourself at risk now

01:39:06

because just the way it is. Um you know,

01:39:09

particularly if you've got a strong

01:39:10

opinion, you're going to get, you know,

01:39:12

you're going to get a whole lot of

01:39:13

people who, you know, want to lop your

01:39:14

head off here. Um but this is good

01:39:17

because it's long form and it's just a

01:39:18

yarn, right? and and it generally is

01:39:20

reminiscing which is cuz it's not we

01:39:22

don't don't it's not how we live you

01:39:24

know we live in the present with family

01:39:26

and work and you know um yeah other

01:39:29

opportunities we might get you know like

01:39:30

D and I going to travel to see Ryan play

01:39:32

occasionally and that sort of stuff it's

01:39:34

all part so the other stuff just sort of

01:39:35

gets gets parked up but it's part of

01:39:38

your history so it's there and very

01:39:40

occasionally you get the get the chance

01:39:42

to have a yarn about it. Yeah. Yes. So

01:39:44

after playing you you you dabbled in

01:39:46

coaching for a bit eh? Yeah. That was

01:39:48

quite successful, right? Assistant

01:39:49

coach. You almost Did you roll your eyes

01:39:52

then or No, it was Yeah, I didn't really

01:39:53

I didn't I fell in I didn't want to

01:39:55

coach, right? Um I didn't because it was

01:39:58

not something I chose. I I was running a

01:39:59

business and you know, I'd chosen to

01:40:00

stop because Ryan was six and I need to

01:40:02

be around and I was running a business

01:40:04

and it was time for the All Blacks,

01:40:05

right? And I needed to be at home more.

01:40:06

So, there was a number of factors that

01:40:08

went into my retirement decision at the

01:40:09

end of 1993. Um but it was just um

01:40:15

what was the question again? Oh, just

01:40:17

touching upon your coaching. So you

01:40:18

coach. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So So yeah, so

01:40:21

what? Yeah, I started with Oakland in

01:40:22

1999 coaching. So I'd stopped playing

01:40:26

not that long. Um but I um Oakland was

01:40:29

seeking a new coach. Um and I was rung

01:40:32

by the CEO and asked to apply. Hadn't

01:40:34

even thought about it, but I was I

01:40:36

running a business and thought I this

01:40:37

will take a bit of time, but I can make

01:40:38

the time and this team's struggling and

01:40:40

it's a team I love cuz I', you know, had

01:40:42

a lot of success with it. And you know,

01:40:44

Ego says, "Yeah, I think I can help." So

01:40:45

I put my name for went to an interview

01:40:47

process thought the interview had gone

01:40:48

pretty well and then got run by the CEO

01:40:50

and said oh would you consider being

01:40:51

assistant coach? I said well it's not

01:40:52

the job I applied for. I said who's a

01:40:54

head coach? He said a guy called Wayne

01:40:56

Peac. I knew Wayne not very well. I said

01:40:58

well before I commit I need to talk to

01:41:00

Wayne because I need to understand how

01:41:01

we're going to gel. So it became very

01:41:03

apparent um that it was going to work.

01:41:06

So Wayne and I got together and you know

01:41:08

we had the champ we won the championship

01:41:09

in 1999

01:41:11

first year together. We had a good side

01:41:13

though. We had a lot of experienced

01:41:14

guys. So I think we played that we we

01:41:17

played off that pretty well. You know

01:41:19

2000 and 2001 we struggled but made the

01:41:22

semi-finals each year but got beaten in

01:41:23

the semi-finals as we started to have to

01:41:25

rebuild a little bit and then a fellow

01:41:27

called Henry all of a sudden became

01:41:28

available and um come back from Wales

01:41:31

and wanted wanted a job and wanted to

01:41:34

help and um Wayne was you know never

01:41:37

felt threatened by someone just said we

01:41:38

you know he was asked and yep absolutely

01:41:40

we can use this man. We won the

01:41:41

championship in 2002 and 2003. Would we

01:41:44

have won it without Graeme? Don't know,

01:41:45

you know. But did we win it with him?

01:41:47

Yes, we did. Right. So, um, no doubt

01:41:49

that was the pedigree of the man and how

01:41:50

good he was. But, yeah. So, you know,

01:41:52

three years out of five, we won

01:41:53

championships. So, it wasn't bad. In

01:41:55

between that had a year with the Blues

01:41:56

and 2002.

01:41:58

And I wasn't really I wasn't um NPC

01:42:02

Oakland was a team I love. The Blues

01:42:03

wasn't I never played for the Blues even

01:42:05

though it was our region. So it wasn't

01:42:07

that, you know, that didn't motivate me

01:42:10

and it was just and that was a rugby

01:42:12

circus on the road. That's the way I

01:42:13

thought of it. The NPC get home a lot.

01:42:15

It was a lot less demanding. You know,

01:42:17

at that time you're going to have to be

01:42:19

committed for seven months of the year.

01:42:21

But Rain encouraged me to apply for um

01:42:24

an assistant coach's role and just said,

01:42:26

"You just got to show you're ambitious."

01:42:27

And I said, "Well, I don't really want

01:42:28

to do it." He said, "Well, you just got

01:42:28

to show you won't get it." Well, I got

01:42:30

it cuz Peter Sloan said, "Foxy, I want

01:42:32

you." Oh, what can I do? I applied, but

01:42:35

I couldn't say no. I'm like Sloan is a

01:42:37

good I was a good man and a good coach,

01:42:39

you know, and it was like but you know

01:42:41

um I

01:42:44

um I just it was too hard, right? Too

01:42:48

demanding on the family and all of that.

01:42:50

So it was just like I told Sloan at the

01:42:53

end of it, this is, you know, it's not

01:42:54

you mate, it's not the team, it's

01:42:56

nothing. It's just from a lifestyle

01:42:57

point of view, this just doesn't work.

01:42:59

And um so I stepped aside and one of the

01:43:01

guys who took my role was Graeme Henry

01:43:03

the next year and they won it in 20 2003

01:43:07

you know so I I didn't I didn't want to

01:43:09

go coaching I sort of got fell into it

01:43:11

got asked um wanted to help um but it

01:43:14

was relatively shortlived and when I

01:43:16

gave it up it was in I remember walking

01:43:17

with Graeme Henry we were I'm pretty

01:43:19

sure we were playing Northland in 2003

01:43:20

on Eden Park morning walkth through on

01:43:23

Saturday and I was walking out of the

01:43:25

changing room onto the field with Ted. I

01:43:26

said to Ted, I said, "Um, mate, I'm

01:43:29

going to I'm giving this up."

01:43:32

And he said, "Um, doesn't surprise me."

01:43:35

I thought not the answer. I thought I

01:43:37

thought, you know, I thought he'd say,

01:43:39

you know, why do you want to do that?

01:43:41

Um, but he said, no, it doesn't surprise

01:43:42

me. I said, why do you say that, Ted? He

01:43:45

said, "My experience is that the guys

01:43:46

who played at a high level like you did

01:43:48

and when and go where you've got control

01:43:51

and then go coaching where at times you

01:43:52

sit up there in the box and you don't

01:43:54

have control, you've done everything you

01:43:56

can, but there's not much you can do

01:43:57

from that point. It's a real struggle

01:43:58

cuz you your influence is more as a

01:44:00

player on the field." He was dead right.

01:44:03

I I struggle with that emotion. I I

01:44:05

understood the emotional roller coaster,

01:44:06

but I struggled it where I couldn't be

01:44:08

in the middle of it trying to influence

01:44:09

it. You'd say as a coach you can, but

01:44:11

you do everything that you believe is

01:44:13

right to prepare your team. Go and sit

01:44:14

in the box and you'd sit there suddenly

01:44:16

think think what the f is going on. We

01:44:18

didn't train this during the week. And I

01:44:20

just I struggled with that and and look,

01:44:22

the time was too too much. Anyway, it

01:44:24

was time it was just time to go. Are you

01:44:26

are you Some might say uh you're a

01:44:28

control freak.

01:44:30

Uh well, yeah, maybe maybe my my wife

01:44:34

would probably suggest that sometimes,

01:44:36

but um no. Um, I mean, I'm more a

01:44:40

perfectionist and a control freak, I

01:44:41

think. You know, I sort of maybe I have

01:44:43

a certain way of doing things and I

01:44:45

expect everything to be done that way

01:44:47

around, you know, um, and that and the

01:44:49

outcome you get the outcome. Well, you

01:44:51

don't always get the outcome you want as

01:44:53

I've talked about numerous times. So,

01:44:54

and I just I needed to get off the

01:44:56

emotional roller coaster and in life

01:44:58

that was too hard, you know. I like to

01:45:00

live life just drifting along a little

01:45:02

hill in a valley rather than a mountain

01:45:04

in the canyon, you know. So, um, yeah,

01:45:06

it was just, yeah, time to get off the

01:45:07

roller coaster. Did you coach Jonah over

01:45:10

that time at all? No. No. Jonah started

01:45:12

in '94, right?

01:45:14

Um, yeah. God, he was amazing. E, I

01:45:18

every time anyone that has anything to

01:45:19

do with rugies on the podcast, I ask him

01:45:21

about Jonah just in case there's a story

01:45:22

there. I I don't have a story with Jonah

01:45:24

other than, you know, when you find out

01:45:26

his medical history um, and think about

01:45:30

how how that hindered him, but how good

01:45:32

he was with it. Imagine what it would

01:45:34

have been like if he was completely

01:45:35

healthy. Frig, that would have been

01:45:37

scary. Yeah. Like unbelievably scary.

01:45:39

How good he could He was great anyway.

01:45:41

There was more in him if he if his

01:45:44

health was 100% which it wasn't. Wow.

01:45:46

Think about that. Yeah. For such a small

01:45:48

part of his career, he was firing on all

01:45:50

cylinders. E Well, I don't know that he

01:45:51

ever fired on all cylinders. I think the

01:45:53

health thing was pretty evident from the

01:45:54

start. um but kept from us because John

01:45:57

Major was his doctor who you know who

01:46:00

who looked after Jonah and you know the

01:46:02

medical ethics determined privacy and

01:46:04

and and Doc honored that. Um but yeah,

01:46:06

you find out all these years later about

01:46:08

how much Jonah was hampered by it and

01:46:10

but how good he was with it. Well, it's

01:46:12

mindboggling how good he ultimately

01:46:13

could have been. Doc Mayheu, there's

01:46:15

another one we lost recently. I know.

01:46:17

Too many. Too young. 70. Far too young.

01:46:19

Yeah. Um on then your next biggest role

01:46:22

was the um selector. You were a selector

01:46:24

from like 2012 for like 10 years uh to

01:46:27

the middle of 2022 11 and a half years.

01:46:29

That's a that's a long stint. You

01:46:30

obviously enjoyed it and yeah I did. I

01:46:32

mean it was again not something I was

01:46:33

looking just came out of the blue again.

01:46:35

Still remember exactly where I was when

01:46:36

Steve rang me as he was applying for the

01:46:38

All Black job and and just saying you

01:46:40

know Foxy Shag and I you know I knew

01:46:42

Steven not a hell of a well. Not bad

01:46:44

impression by the way. Um and he just

01:46:47

said mate I'd love you to be an all

01:46:48

black selector independent all black

01:46:50

selector. And I was just blown away

01:46:52

because not a phone call I expected.

01:46:54

Anyway, we just I went home and asked

01:46:56

Adele and she said, "Well, you know, you

01:46:57

love this team, don't you?" And I said,

01:46:58

"I do." And she said, "Well, way you

01:47:00

go." Um, and I had a real belief in

01:47:03

Steve. Um, you know, what Graeme had

01:47:05

told me and that there was a a real

01:47:07

belief. And anyway, um, I fell into it.

01:47:10

Um, was, you know, sort of had eight

01:47:12

years with him, you know, winning a

01:47:14

World Cup in 2015, you know, getting

01:47:15

beaten in a semi-final in 2019. So, it

01:47:17

sort of mirrored my career in a way. Um

01:47:19

and then you know I was stepping away um

01:47:22

after Japan because it was just time the

01:47:24

team needed new blood and

01:47:26

um I thought they needed new blood and

01:47:28

and that but you know Fos um Fos rang me

01:47:30

when he was a preferred candidate and

01:47:32

I'd told Fos that you know he'd asked me

01:47:34

if I get the job mate you know would you

01:47:35

come there I said no mate but it's not

01:47:37

about you it's just about where I'm at

01:47:39

in life and I think the team needs a

01:47:41

change and anyway um Fos ry and said

01:47:44

mate um I'm the preferred candidate and

01:47:46

I need your help for a year cuz he

01:47:47

wanted Joe Smith and you discussion and

01:47:50

Joe were fruitful in terms of Joe would

01:47:51

be available at some point. We thought

01:47:53

it would only be a year. Well, it turned

01:47:54

into two and a half and Fos just didn't

01:47:56

want to put he wanted he believed in the

01:47:58

independence of a select. He just didn't

01:48:00

want to put someone else in for a year

01:48:01

and then when Joe comes on just a guy

01:48:03

have a year and get so it was like we

01:48:05

have some continuity and I love Foster

01:48:07

bits good man. Um, and so I just I I

01:48:10

carried on until finally he got Joe and

01:48:14

what a difference Joe made, you know, as

01:48:16

a man he wanted all the way through and

01:48:17

and and um anyway um nearly won a World

01:48:20

Cup. Should have won a World Cup. Yeah.

01:48:23

Well, as a man that's played played so

01:48:25

much rugby at the top level and then,

01:48:27

you know, been involved in coaching for

01:48:28

a little bit and then selecting like can

01:48:30

how do you watch a game now? Like I

01:48:32

don't watch much. No. No. I mean, you

01:48:34

watch it and enjoy it or if you watch it

01:48:36

again. Yeah. And I and I mean I I get um

01:48:39

uh you get I get um um uh passionate

01:48:42

about the teams I you know that mean

01:48:44

more to me. Um and you say you ride that

01:48:46

high and low and get frustrated when

01:48:47

things aren't going right. What's that

01:48:49

like All Blacks All? Yeah. Yeah. Blues,

01:48:51

right? Um but I can watch you and I

01:48:54

learned with the All Blacks as you watch

01:48:55

dispassionately. So even the team you

01:48:57

support you just you know when you're in

01:48:59

that role you've got to be completely

01:49:00

neutral and dispassionate. So I'd

01:49:02

learned how to I think do that pretty

01:49:04

well. But I don't I don't watch enough a

01:49:06

lot now. One, I don't have much control

01:49:08

of the TV remote at home. But um but you

01:49:11

know, it's just it's not that I don't

01:49:12

care and I don't love it and and that I

01:49:14

just I don't want my time taken up by

01:49:16

it. You know, yes, when the All Blacks

01:49:18

play, I'll certainly be watching live.

01:49:19

Will I go to the test? Maybe. You know,

01:49:22

I get invited along a bit now. I don't

01:49:23

go. I live a long way out of town, a

01:49:24

place called Beachland. So, you know,

01:49:26

that in itself is a mission. You know,

01:49:29

it's it's it's a good half day by the

01:49:31

time we, you know, leave and go and turn

01:49:33

around doing anything. It's just I I'm a

01:49:34

homebody now. I'm happy to be home. You

01:49:37

know, Adele doesn't want to come anyway.

01:49:38

So I don't, you know, otherwise leaving

01:49:40

her on her own. Um so go we'll go down

01:49:43

to a mate's place and watch a game, have

01:49:45

have a have a bourbon or a whiskey or a

01:49:47

rum, you know. So um you know, so again,

01:49:49

I'm not much of a theater go now, but

01:49:51

after 40 years of the game taking up a

01:49:54

lot of time, um my choice to take that

01:49:56

time, too, by the way. Um I'm just, you

01:49:59

know, I'm I'm stepping back.

01:50:02

Yeah. And you seem happy and I'm happy.

01:50:04

Yeah. Yeah. Very. I mean everything. Do

01:50:06

I have regrets or anything? Regrets?

01:50:08

Yeah. You probably have a few. Um, can I

01:50:11

change them though? So there's no point

01:50:12

dwelling on them. Um, what would what

01:50:15

would they be if you had to cherry? You

01:50:17

don't want to go there? No, not really.

01:50:18

I mean I look I was you know I I I guess

01:50:21

you know the back end of my career I

01:50:24

mean I was always demanding of myself

01:50:25

and so the way the teams we played and

01:50:27

we were demanding of each of each other.

01:50:29

I mean, people would still laugh with

01:50:31

the way and some of the names I

01:50:33

mentioned earlier, the way we tr we

01:50:35

pushed each other, like it it was it's

01:50:38

like these guys aren't friends. Like, we

01:50:40

were seriously brutal. Um, but when we

01:50:44

walked off the white paint, it stopped.

01:50:46

So, people couldn't never figure that

01:50:48

out. It was always about getting better.

01:50:50

And so, I became, you know, I was part

01:50:52

of that group being very demanding. And

01:50:54

I guess some other players that came in

01:50:56

from time to time, you know, didn't

01:50:58

react as well to that. Um, I just wasn't

01:51:02

probably wasn't emotionally aware enough

01:51:03

to understand it. Or maybe one of my

01:51:05

mates didn't say to me, "Hey, mate, you

01:51:07

know, well, that guy, you can't do that.

01:51:09

You got to be a little softer with him."

01:51:11

I just probably didn't recognize it

01:51:12

because I was a little bit more black

01:51:13

and white. So, if I have some regrets,

01:51:15

it was be it would be around just maybe

01:51:18

being a little bit too demanding. Um um

01:51:21

I think at the times of players we work

01:51:23

with we help make better um but um and

01:51:27

look those players um there's only one

01:51:29

or two of them I don't you know when I

01:51:31

bump into them we never talk about

01:51:32

things like that but if I have and I'm

01:51:34

not going to name names but probably

01:51:36

that's the one thing I think back

01:51:37

because the number one rule of

01:51:38

management is to treat people properly.

01:51:40

Now, while I wasn't management, I was

01:51:42

playing and maybe my motive was right to

01:51:45

help push them to get better so the team

01:51:47

gets better. Maybe the way I went about

01:51:49

it was just okay, didn't recognize that

01:51:51

you can't treat everyone the same.

01:51:53

Whereas the environment I grew up in,

01:51:54

that's what we did. That's what we did.

01:51:56

We didn't spend that much time together,

01:51:57

so we just that's the way and but we

01:51:59

were great mates. We could let that go.

01:52:01

Maybe some players found that a little

01:52:02

bit harder to let go than others. So,

01:52:05

again, not litigating names. It was

01:52:06

probably the one thing I think would I

01:52:08

do that a bit differently? probably.

01:52:10

Well, I think I think that's a as a man

01:52:11

in his 60s, I think that's a nice regret

01:52:13

to have because it means you've evolved

01:52:14

and you know, you've maybe softened a

01:52:16

bit or changed as a person. Yeah. Well,

01:52:18

I didn't I didn't learn that the number

01:52:20

one rule of management is to treat

01:52:21

people properly until much later when I

01:52:23

Graeme Henry talk about it um you know

01:52:26

at a speech I was sitting at and he

01:52:27

spoke this I thought actually that

01:52:28

resonates. So, what's your relationship

01:52:30

with vulnerability like now? Like

01:52:32

there's been a couple of points on the

01:52:33

podcast where you've got emotional

01:52:34

talking about um yeah the late Martin

01:52:36

Crowe, but have you got like a good

01:52:38

inner circle of friends and some people

01:52:39

you can talk to about about serious

01:52:42

stuff? Um yep. Let your walls down. Uh

01:52:44

yep. But I don't I mean generally I'm

01:52:46

very satisfied with where I'm at. So I

01:52:48

don't those conversations don't happen.

01:52:51

But I know you know I know Adele's sort

01:52:54

of you know at times might have been

01:52:56

worried about

01:52:57

you're a bit shortteered. um you know

01:53:00

you're a bit stressed um what's going on

01:53:03

and I'm sort of not that keen to talk

01:53:05

about it but she she has rung JK a

01:53:07

couple of times and then I'll get my

01:53:09

mate call me you okay buddy n I've

01:53:12

probably had that a couple of times to

01:53:13

be honest so it's not it's not really

01:53:15

but that's you know but we have you know

01:53:18

when when when

01:53:20

um things happen in people's lives the

01:53:22

good things we all yep well done bud you

01:53:24

know grandkids ringing congratulation or

01:53:27

achievement or something but at At the

01:53:29

same time when something happens because

01:53:30

we're at the time of life where deaths

01:53:32

are happening around us of family

01:53:34

members and they're all people we knew

01:53:35

we're all in touch with each other. Um

01:53:38

so I mean I at the moment I you know

01:53:41

life for me is just trundling along.

01:53:44

It's not even hills and valleys now.

01:53:45

It's a nice little bling nice little

01:53:47

flat plane with a little little bloody

01:53:49

little hump you got to go down and up.

01:53:50

Um so yeah just yeah I mean I'm again

01:53:54

I'm you know I think I'm fortunate you

01:53:56

know got a good family around me. made a

01:53:58

very good choice in terms of who I

01:54:00

partner with for life. I'd like to think

01:54:02

Adele made a good choice, too, but

01:54:03

that's for her to judge. Um, get her on.

01:54:06

Got, you know, good good mates, good

01:54:08

parental support. We got, you know, in

01:54:09

in our little community in Beach has got

01:54:11

good mates in Beachlands. Um, so yeah,

01:54:13

just I said, you know, life's life's

01:54:15

good. Yeah, it's neat like seeing this

01:54:18

um this book, The Game, the Gold, which

01:54:19

came out, you know, in the early 90s and

01:54:21

the photos of Adele in the way that she

01:54:23

talks about you and then watching her on

01:54:25

the, you know, the the episode of This

01:54:27

Is Your Life. Yeah, you married right.

01:54:29

Hey, you did good. I I think it was one

01:54:31

of the most important decisions you make

01:54:32

in your life to be honest. We don't

01:54:34

always get that right either. Um but you

01:54:37

know, um we you know, I'd like to think

01:54:39

we're very happily married. We've raised

01:54:40

a good family, got you, as I said, got

01:54:42

grandkids. All the family's doing well.

01:54:45

So, you know, um they've got good

01:54:47

support networks and friends around them

01:54:48

and you know, my daughter's deeply

01:54:50

involved in the community there and the,

01:54:51

you know, the local play center and and

01:54:53

that sort of thing. So, yeah, it's just

01:54:56

um life's good. What What are you most

01:54:58

afraid of at this stage of life? Missing

01:55:00

out.

01:55:01

Um so, um and so this is about death

01:55:05

because happens to us all, you know, we

01:55:08

all have a time on this earth and

01:55:09

eventually I mean, I hope I got a lot of

01:55:11

time left and I'm not worried about

01:55:12

death. I'm worried about missing out.

01:55:14

Yeah. The FOMO. Yeah. The the the kids,

01:55:16

the grandkids. I'd love to see, you

01:55:18

know, the um the grandkids grow and

01:55:22

blossom and start playing sport and, you

01:55:24

know, if we're lucky enough to be, you

01:55:26

know, still around when they get

01:55:27

married, all of those things, you know,

01:55:29

that that's what I guess I'm not not so

01:55:32

much afraid. I'd be sad to miss it. Not

01:55:33

so much afraid to miss it. Yeah. Um

01:55:36

because at the end of the day, I guess,

01:55:37

you know, I'm a bit of fatalist around

01:55:39

this when you know death is final and

01:55:43

you don't know about it. That's what's

01:55:44

left behind. You don't you're not aware

01:55:46

of because they're dealing with it, but

01:55:48

the one who's died is not here anymore.

01:55:50

Um so you you see that enough and so you

01:55:53

say, well, that's the bit you'd be sad

01:55:54

about and sad about missing out more

01:55:56

time. But you know, we all don't have we

01:56:00

all have a length we'll be here and

01:56:01

that'll be determined at some stage in

01:56:03

the future. That's the That's the

01:56:04

certainty for all of us, eh? Like we're

01:56:06

all going to go and um when birth,

01:56:08

death, and taxes.

01:56:10

Oh, taxes. A lot of taxes. A lot of

01:56:13

taxes. But you never know. You never

01:56:14

know when your time's up. But for most

01:56:16

of us, it's a lot less than what we

01:56:18

want. That's it. Yeah, I guess. So,

01:56:20

yeah. Yeah, I guess. So, I I suppose

01:56:22

it's part of it depends on what your

01:56:23

health's like towards the end. Cuz if

01:56:24

you're getting to a point where, you

01:56:26

know, life's not good, you know, I know,

01:56:28

you know, maybe your choice would be if

01:56:30

I had a choice, I'd like, you know, to

01:56:32

not have to suffer this anymore, you

01:56:34

know, if you're healthy enough, well and

01:56:36

good. But we again, um, you know, that's

01:56:38

in the future. We don't know how all

01:56:40

that's going to the way I'm feeling at

01:56:42

the moment. God, knees and bling wrists

01:56:44

and I'm bloody. Yeah. You want to be

01:56:47

like Sir Gra Henry like I see him

01:56:49

marching around him and Ray when they go

01:56:51

for like brisk 10 km walk. Yeah, I walk.

01:56:53

I mean, I walk the dogs six mornings a

01:56:55

week, right? That's part of my routine.

01:56:56

Get out of bed and walk the dogs, right,

01:56:57

for an hour, nearly an hour each day,

01:56:59

but I got a knee replacement that's due

01:57:01

to go again. I'm getting that done in

01:57:02

July. So, it'll set me back for a bit,

01:57:03

but it'll actually push me forward when

01:57:05

I get through the rehab because at the

01:57:06

moment it's a bit niggly and slowing me

01:57:08

down and

01:57:10

um can't do quite what I want to do, but

01:57:12

you know, I'll get that fixed soon. You

01:57:14

you getting still get recognized a bit

01:57:15

in public? What do people talk to you

01:57:16

about? They talk to you about the old

01:57:17

rugby stuff or about Ryan. Yeah. Okay.

01:57:19

Yeah. Which is cool. I love that. Um do

01:57:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, if I'm

01:57:24

walking the supermarket aisle and the

01:57:25

All Blacks have just played a test, you

01:57:27

might get someone who who will stop you

01:57:28

or someone you'll bump into, right? Um,

01:57:31

but it's more about if you know about

01:57:33

about Ryan, which is which is great.

01:57:35

That's so cool. And what about legacy?

01:57:37

Is that something you think about at

01:57:38

all? Like how you want to be remembered?

01:57:40

Um,

01:57:42

how would I want to be remembered? Um,

01:57:45

look, I just I I mean, the rugby side

01:57:48

doesn't bother me. It's actually I want

01:57:49

to make sure that that um when you're

01:57:52

not here from a family point of view

01:57:54

that you remembered you know I'm a good

01:57:55

husband, I'm a good dad, I'm a good

01:57:57

granddad that the family will remember

01:58:00

you with great fondness because you gave

01:58:02

time and you cared and you gave love and

01:58:05

that's the legacy for me. You know, the

01:58:07

sport thing, yeah, nice. But I'm not,

01:58:10

you know,

01:58:12

if if the family had blown up and I had

01:58:14

rugby, I'd be terribly sad. As I said,

01:58:17

I'm happy. Um, you know, life's good and

01:58:19

that's because, right, you know, because

01:58:22

of family um not because of the rugby.

01:58:27

I reckon that's a great place to end it.

01:58:30

It's um Yeah, that's No, that's

01:58:32

wonderful. That's really profound. You

01:58:34

know what I like about about this cuz we

01:58:36

didn't we didn't prepare anything. So, I

01:58:38

had no heads up on the questions. So, it

01:58:40

becomes you just go where you want to

01:58:42

go. That's what I like about long form

01:58:43

and it doesn't have to be on a

01:58:44

particular topic. And so you get

01:58:46

surprised with questions that I don't I

01:58:48

mean couple of the lines at the end I

01:58:50

don't think I've ever been asked before.

01:58:52

So it makes you think about what's

01:58:54

important. Yeah. Okay. Well there's

01:58:58

another

01:59:00

I've been cutting some as we go. Like

01:59:02

there's there's a lot that we didn't

01:59:03

talk about the rugby stuff like

01:59:05

Oakland's incredible unbeaten run and

01:59:07

but on the big scheme of things as

01:59:09

you've just said none of that's sort of

01:59:10

really important. There's um there's

01:59:12

there's there's one thing that I do ask

01:59:13

a lot of my guests towards the end. So I

01:59:15

had this guy I don't expect you to know

01:59:16

the name this I had this guy Doo Allen

01:59:18

on the podcast part of team New Zealand

01:59:20

um multisport races done some adventure

01:59:22

races with Richie Mccor. Yes. Okay.

01:59:24

Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking

01:59:24

about. And he he said they um during one

01:59:27

of those um crazy adventure races in the

01:59:29

middle of the night. Richie came up with

01:59:31

like a game for all the teammates to

01:59:32

play and it was um what three words

01:59:34

would you like Oh yeah, I know this

01:59:36

game. It's not a game. It's like yeah I

01:59:38

know this game. what what three words

01:59:39

would you like your friends or family to

01:59:41

be saying at at your funeral? And I I've

01:59:43

asked this to a lot of guests and I've

01:59:44

thought about it more and more over the

01:59:45

time. And it's um it's actually a good

01:59:47

way to reverse engineer your life

01:59:48

because if you know what those words

01:59:49

are, then you can start living in a way

01:59:51

that's going to increase the chance.

01:59:52

This is a this is a question that Steve

01:59:54

used to use when you when

01:59:57

trying to help a player um you'd say,

01:59:59

well, how this is about how your peers.

02:00:01

So, if the player had three words, what

02:00:03

three words do you think they would use?

02:00:04

So, how would you describe yourself in

02:00:06

three words? And then what what do you

02:00:08

think your peers would say? It's an

02:00:09

interesting thing to get alignment,

02:00:10

right? Because that's about

02:00:11

self-awareness. Yes. Because if it's not

02:00:13

aligned, you're not you don't have your

02:00:14

self-awareness about about what your

02:00:16

peers think. So that's sort of very

02:00:17

strongly used in in an all black

02:00:19

environment. Um and you've just hit me

02:00:21

with this. I haven't actually I haven't

02:00:22

actually really thought about it, but um

02:00:25

you know, I mean um the one of the words

02:00:28

would be loyal, right? I'd like to be

02:00:31

I'd like to think that I'm loyal to to

02:00:34

friends and family. um um uh loyal,

02:00:38

caring probably mirrors a little bit. Um

02:00:43

look, and in the end of the day, another

02:00:45

word that probably a lot of my my

02:00:48

contempt would say is driven. Mhm.

02:00:50

Right. Um I mean um I remember watching

02:00:54

Richie's um chasing great and I when I'm

02:00:58

watching LA um the last dance the Jordan

02:01:00

thing there's one word that resonates

02:01:01

with these guys cuz this is again we

02:01:03

talked earlier about what sets the very

02:01:06

best apart well there is a drive in them

02:01:08

that is it is at a different level than

02:01:12

the rest and Richie McCall had that cuz

02:01:15

that's a for me is right and I remember

02:01:18

in the um watching the Jordan thing And

02:01:21

he was asked a similar question and I

02:01:23

said to my wife, I know the word he's

02:01:25

going to use. He's going to say driven.

02:01:26

And look, within about three words,

02:01:28

three third word of the sentence, the

02:01:30

word driven came out cuz you could see

02:01:32

it in him. And I'd like to think that

02:01:34

that that I'm driven, but driven wasn't

02:01:36

just about around sport, you know, was

02:01:38

around, you know, you build you build a

02:01:40

business to help, you got to work, you

02:01:41

got to earn a crust, you got to look

02:01:42

after your family. um and and driven

02:01:45

around family to you know make sure you

02:01:48

you know you you you you you

02:01:51

have a good family, you know, you you're

02:01:53

driven to be do the good things around

02:01:55

family life to raise a good family to

02:01:57

set the right boundaries and values and

02:01:59

all of that sort of thing. Um so yeah,

02:02:01

probably you know loyal, caring and

02:02:03

driven. Three great words. Yeah. Driven

02:02:05

to be the best version of yourself.

02:02:06

Yeah. And as I said, it's not just about

02:02:08

the rate. It wasn't just about the about

02:02:09

the sport. Yeah. Yeah. Great words.

02:02:13

Are you proud of yourself? Yeah. And I'm

02:02:17

proud of what's around me. Um, you know,

02:02:19

especially family, but proud of proud of

02:02:22

mates, good mates, you know, proud of

02:02:24

what I achieved in footy. Proud of what

02:02:26

um I've achieved. I've been in the

02:02:28

business I'm in. It's morphed a little

02:02:29

bit through some shareholding changes

02:02:30

and and a merger, but I started in

02:02:33

January 1986 and I'm still in the same

02:02:35

business more or less. So again, I'm

02:02:37

proud of we've built something that um

02:02:40

you know um has been good for my family,

02:02:43

but good, you know, I'd like to think

02:02:44

good for the employees that work for us

02:02:45

and look looks after their family. You

02:02:48

know, proud proud of um proud of um you

02:02:51

know, the the family that's around me

02:02:53

that um you know, I've been part of

02:02:55

helping create and um you know, I think

02:02:58

that you know, family life is good.

02:03:00

Awesome. By the way, I don't think

02:03:02

Brian's sitting around waiting for an

02:03:03

inheritance. I think he's all right.

02:03:05

might be wanting one from him. No, no. I

02:03:08

mean, look at the end of the day, the

02:03:09

money's a byproduct of success, isn't

02:03:11

it? But, um, you know, he's doing he's

02:03:13

doing well, but you know, we were in the

02:03:15

US recently. The market's enormous.

02:03:17

Like, and that's, you know, I I heard

02:03:20

Greg Forin talk about it on an interview

02:03:22

um recently with um and I think it was

02:03:26

with Mike Hosking, I think. I can't

02:03:28

quite remember, but talked about, you

02:03:31

know, the he ran Walmart now running in

02:03:33

New Zealand. big businesses. But the

02:03:35

difference is and he talked about this

02:03:37

is what's one of what's our biggest

02:03:38

challenge? Scale or lack of it. It's a

02:03:40

real challenge here. You know, there's

02:03:42

just we like being a small little

02:03:43

country, but it creates some enormous

02:03:45

challenges because we have a lack of

02:03:46

scale. And when you go to America and

02:03:48

see the scale of 350 million vers 5

02:03:50

million and the and the market that that

02:03:53

it's in and the value it generates out

02:03:55

of media, that's why these guys have all

02:03:56

these big salaries and play for big

02:03:58

money because they're just in a market

02:03:59

that just it's just not. And it is what

02:04:02

it is. But you know um scale a lack of

02:04:05

scale is a real challenge for this

02:04:06

country.

02:04:08

Hey, I really appreciate you being here

02:04:10

today. Oh, my pleasure. Been fun. It's

02:04:12

been Yeah. Has it been fun? Yeah, it has

02:04:14

been fun. Yeah, you took took me a

02:04:16

couple of places I I wasn't expecting,

02:04:18

but that's okay. Oh, what like what was

02:04:19

that? No, getting into the family and I

02:04:22

drove that a bit to be fair, but you

02:04:23

know, um I knew the Marty Crow thing had

02:04:26

come out would come out, so I try and

02:04:27

prepare for that, but it still gets me.

02:04:30

Um, and you know, we didn't cover it

02:04:31

that much rugby, which is cool because

02:04:32

I'm quite happy for that to be, you

02:04:34

know, that's part of history. Can't

02:04:36

change it, consign to, proud of it. Um,

02:04:39

but you know, um, I retired in 1993, so

02:04:42

that's a long time ago. Well, it's been

02:04:44

a wonderful career and a a wonderful

02:04:47

life and I can't thank you enough for

02:04:48

coming on the podcast. Actually, I think

02:04:49

this is the first father and son Oh,

02:04:51

really? I've had on the the podcast.

02:04:53

Yeah. Ryan Grant. Oh, that's nice. I

02:04:55

really appreciate it. You're a great

02:04:56

man, Grandpa. Cheers. Cheers, Dom. Thank

02:04:58

you.

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

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Most heartbreaking
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Best overall
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Best performance

Episode Highlights

The All Black Way
Grant Fox shares insights on the culture and hierarchy within the All Blacks.
“That's the All Black way of doing things.”
@ 05m 49s
June 29, 2025
Parenting and Presence
Grant Fox discusses the importance of being present for his children.
“How do you spell love to your kids? T I M E.”
@ 13m 45s
June 29, 2025
Remembering Martin Craig
He reflects on the emotional bond and legacy of his late friend, a talented cricketer.
“He was a very special man, a very talented man.”
@ 27m 36s
June 29, 2025
The Media Landscape Today
The speaker reflects on the evolution of media and the rise of mistrust in mainstream outlets.
“The level of mistrust in mainstream media has never been higher.”
@ 34m 26s
June 29, 2025
The Early Days of Training
Training was primitive, focusing more on aerobic exercises than strength. 'We didn’t know any better.'
“We just ran roads. That’s what we did.”
@ 49m 49s
June 29, 2025
The 1987 Rugby World Cup
The inaugural Rugby World Cup saw the All Blacks win, starting a new era for the sport. 'What lit the World Cup is JK’s try.'
“We ultimately put 70 on Italy.”
@ 59m 22s
June 29, 2025
The Weight of Expectations
Facing immense pressure, he reflects on the burden of being an All Black.
“Kicking goals is my job.”
@ 01h 10m 52s
June 29, 2025
The Nature of Criticism
He discusses the harsh realities of public scrutiny and the impact on family.
“It’s gutless, right?”
@ 01h 20m 23s
June 29, 2025
Mental Health Advocacy
JK's influence on men's mental health has made vulnerability acceptable in rugby culture.
“He made it okay for men to be vulnerable in a big way.”
@ 01h 26m 23s
June 29, 2025
Coaching Journey
He dabbled in coaching after retirement, but it was a struggle for him.
“I didn't want to coach, right?”
@ 01h 39m 55s
June 29, 2025
Emotional Roller Coaster
He shares the challenges of coaching and the emotional toll it took.
“I needed to get off the emotional roller coaster.”
@ 01h 44m 58s
June 29, 2025
Legacy Beyond Sport
He emphasizes the importance of being remembered as a good family man over athletic achievements.
“That's the legacy for me.”
@ 01h 58m 07s
June 29, 2025

Episode Quotes

The competitive instinct doesn’t leave you.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise
He was sort of misunderstood by the New Zealand public.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise
You only know what you know.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise
Kicking goals is my job.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise
Life is about family, that’s the most important thing.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise
Life's good.
Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

Key Moments

Rugby Legacy01:11
Parenting Wisdom13:45
Friendship with Marty26:01
Emotional Reflections27:36
Team Dynamics1:06:36
Criticism and Empathy1:21:37
Coaching Challenges1:39:55
Life Reflections1:54:15

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

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December 28, 2025

01:39:59

The David Goggins of NZ: Jamie Milne's Insane World Records!

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October 30, 2024

02:08:09

The Voice of NZ Rugby - Tony Johnson on Eden Park, Working with Paul Holmes, Prostate Cancer & More!

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October 12, 2025

01:45:10

All Blacks Legend Frano Botica: Truth About Buck Shelford & WILD Fight In Argentina

Ric Salizzo Reflects on SportsCafe & Marc Ellis, Friendships with Jonah Lomu, John Kirwan and more!

March 31, 2024

01:35:34

Ric Salizzo Reflects on SportsCafe & Marc Ellis, Friendships with Jonah Lomu, John Kirwan and more!

Christian Cullen’s BEST Jonah Lomu Stories, Beef with John Mitchell & Finding Purpose After Rugby

September 22, 2024

01:55:24

Christian Cullen’s BEST Jonah Lomu Stories, Beef with John Mitchell & Finding Purpose After Rugby

3 Hours of Beer & Banter with Justin Marshall - CRAZIEST Yarns from Iconic Rugby & Commentary Career

October 23, 2024

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Unf**k your life for 2026! - David Niethe

January 28, 2026

01:35:11

Unf**k your life for 2026! - David Niethe

The Voice Of Rugby - Grant Nisbett On Commentating 350 Tests, Christian Cullen & Favourite Tests

March 16, 2025

01:44:55

The Voice Of Rugby - Grant Nisbett On Commentating 350 Tests, Christian Cullen & Favourite Tests

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

April 06, 2025

01:20:48

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

Xero Founder Sir Rod Drury: Fixing NZ’s Biggest Problems

February 01, 2026

01:49:23

Xero Founder Sir Rod Drury: Fixing NZ’s Biggest Problems

Craig Innes: The Real Problem with NZ Rugby!

March 11, 2026

02:16:43

Craig Innes: The Real Problem with NZ Rugby!