00:00:06
Jake Robertson, welcome to my podcast. >> Pleasure to be here finally, >> mate. This is the first time we've met
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uh in person. I feel like I know you, though. >> Yeah, likewise, man. Um, I've been
00:00:16
listening to you on the radio since I was a young kid and um, you know, we've
00:00:21
had a couple of chats over the years and yeah, I me I don't know why I messaged
00:00:26
you sometimes when I was down after some pretty big um, pretty big news that you
00:00:32
know you you kind of covered on your podcast. So, yeah, it's awesome to finally be on myself. M
00:00:39
>> yeah the big news you're talking about that was um your twin brother Zayn um
00:00:43
and his doping ban in 2023 I I had him on the podcast I think it was um like an international exclusive
00:00:51
at the time so it got picked up by media all over the world and it was um it was
00:00:54
a heartbreaking heartbreaking chat like it was it was a conversation with a man who was clearly at the lowest point of
00:01:02
his life the lowest point you know someone can possibly be and it was um it's a rough podcast even to listen to
00:01:08
now. But yeah, how was that for you at the time being the twin brother? >> Well, yeah, it's um it was a pretty big
00:01:15
deal. I mean, everything and the way he went about it. Um I mean, yeah. So, it's
00:01:20
good we get this out of the way cuz I am Jake Robertson and it's good that people
00:01:25
understand that I'm not my brother. I don't live with my brother and um you
00:01:31
know, I have my wife and my son and we have our family. Um, but yeah, I mean I had personally no idea that that was
00:01:40
going to or that was coming until about 10 days maybe before the news and um Zayn had been told that he was going to
00:01:50
have, you know, a week's notice before they announced the news and he'll tell
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me when they're going to announce the news, but that never came and it was a
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surprise to all of us when it got dropped. He um yeah, he he told me the day before
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I was flying out to go and race the Lisbon half marathon and I was like I was freaking out, you know. I was
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like, "Oh, shit." Because I've been a twin my whole life. I understood
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anything that one of us would do, we always get, you know, we always get the blame almost. And I was like, you know,
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we this is our life story. We've been on so many documentaries. people going to
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be saying, "Oh, of course he's on it, too." >> And you know, it's uh you know, to be
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honest, it was Yeah, it's it's bunch of [ __ ] Like there's >> no you're not you're not the same
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person. But yeah, I can't imagine how it was for you at the time because um obviously like you you're angry because
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there's that guilt by association thing which is completely unfair. Um, but also
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it's your [ __ ] twin brother and he's he's on my podcast talking about wanting
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to shoot himself in the head. >> Yeah. So, you know, going past the the the automatic shock of it, I was um you
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know, I'd seen I'd seen his character change and he was, you know, partying a
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lot and I was wondering why. And he said, you know, I'm focusing on my studies now. And um, you know, a lot of
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things that I' I'd already seen. I was wondering why is this happening? And um
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you know when he told me I was shocked and then when the news dropped you know uh this is a story that you
00:03:34
know people may say they understand but you know it's completely unfair. Um, so
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I' I'd been offered a huge, you know, puma contract and I was pushing my agent for those 10
00:03:48
days because I knew what was about to transpire was going to affect me. And I was I was, you know, running really well
00:03:54
again. And I'd been offered a Puma contract and was only ready to sign. And I was, you know, kind of went inside and
00:04:01
celebrating with my wife. And um the next morning at like 2:00 a.m. in the morning, I'm
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getting like uh messages saying the news has dropped and I'm going online and
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seeing, oh [ __ ] it's actually happening late. But I was supposed to be told from
00:04:21
Zayn that it was going to be announced >> and it didn't it didn't um get
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announced. And you know, the next day I'm getting a call from my agent and he's telling me Pummer have retracted
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their offer. And this was a 4-year deal. Enough money for me and my family to be
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comfortable. And uh then I knew your podcast would do this. >> We made a joke before we started about
00:04:53
the box of tissues being here. I wasn't thinking it was going to be you guys do
00:04:57
everything fast, don't you? You run fast, you break down. >> Oh man, that that one still just gets
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me, you know. >> How um since the the the Puma deal's been and gone, like can you give an idea
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of figures or is that inappropriate? >> Um it's I say it's a lot of money in
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Kenya >> and I would even be able to, you know, we would be even able to survive here in
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New Zealand off it. It was a good a good deal. But um due to like disclosure and
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um I can't give that one away. Um >> because it's a it's a rough sport to
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make a good living in a like distance running. It just it just is. There's not
00:05:35
the um there's not the sort of endorsement opportunities that other sports necessarily have.
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>> Yeah. So you have to be a top tier like you have to be performing and >> you have to do it over a you know a
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series of races. you can't just >> do it one off and expect, you know.
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>> Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm still answering your question cuz there's so much to
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talk about, but um, you know, that that transpiring that that happening to me. um you know on the phone I I was
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breaking down with my agent and um you know I had to go inside and uh I know I flipped a switch and my son was
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dancing when I went inside so I started dancing with him and I I was in my own head I was I was I was like broken but
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uh I had to be like Superman you know >> for my son he was dancing around the
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living room he doesn't care like he doesn't know what's going on so >> um his perspective E
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>> and my, you know, my wife knew there was something wrong. She could just tell by
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looking at me and everything, you know, that was going on that day. She knew. But, um,
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you know, then, you know, of course, I'm also thinking about my brother and um,
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family's family, man. Um, as much as this was hitting me and I'm feeling bad
00:07:00
about myself, I was like, you know, I'm not going to speak to Zayn about me and
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my worries, what this is doing to me right now cuz he he knows. And um you know my my you know instant
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reaction for him was to just try and comfort him, get him through this because I've seen Kenyan athletes try
00:07:20
and commit suicide after such news hit them >> and it's it's not uncommon. It's like
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you know we put in so much this is our life like we put in so much to this to make it to that level and then you get
00:07:35
told your life has changed forever. M >> so you know I um I tried to be there for
00:07:43
him um as much as I could. I said, "Come around, man." You know, "Come around to
00:07:47
our house if you ever need. Don't hesitate." And um you know, then he got on your
00:07:53
podcast and um that, you know, was a day where I was uh on the phone to him earlier and
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um I was trying to just stop him doing anything, you know, in the in the moment.
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>> And yeah, I mean um family's family, man. Um, I I got to read a few messages
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that were coming at the time from even New Zealand athletes. Uh, and I I was like, come on, you know,
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this is it's not the time for this. >> A pylon. Yeah. >> Like someone like we knew growing up. It
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was, you know, our age group running around the same time. Um, she messaged them. Um, and it was, you know, kind of
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um, bringing me into this, saying, you know, you guys, and not not you, Zayn, but the message said, you guys have won
00:08:48
some seriously big races and made a name for yourself. And I said, now like they're bringing me into this. I
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>> So, you know, it it constantly affected me and I my main concern was my
00:09:02
brother's life. So, What what's your relationship like now? Like has it had um like a long-term
00:09:10
impact on it? >> Um that in particular, uh I I guess so, but not >> not really. It's just we're in different
00:09:21
stages, different places in our lives. You know, I'm a family man. I'm kind of
00:09:26
the quiet guy. My brother's very outgoing and um a lot of people would get on with him. He's a fun guy. knows
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how to mix, you know, drinks. He's, you know, that guy part life of the party.
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Um, you know, I'm I'm kind of Yeah. indoors with my family. >> Yeah. You're quite quite sort of um shy
00:09:47
and reserved. Eh, so why why did you want to do a podcast today? Well, uh, you know, get my side of the
00:09:54
story out on a lot of things, speak about life, where I'm at now, future, you know, I'm I'm trying to move on from
00:10:01
this. And you know, as much as this has kind of affected me, um I'd like to speak about future and I'm I'm finally
00:10:09
in a more positive place where I feel like, you know, I um have a few things going
00:10:15
for me and uh yeah, I I want to speak about this before, you know, before these things transpire and I I become
00:10:24
who I'm going to be again. Yeah. >> Brilliant. you do you think your best
00:10:28
runs are are ahead of you or behind you as we sit here today? >> You know, I I flipped a switch a few
00:10:34
weeks ago because I actually have um a pending police uh academy application in I signed up to join the New Zealand
00:10:44
Police Force. Um and I'm I'm you know, I was thinking postc career running uh what would I
00:10:51
like to do? Where would I feel like I can make a difference and work that I'm
00:10:55
interested in? I don't ever see myself working just a job that I'm, you know,
00:11:00
not passionate about. So, I um signed up for the police force and I I heard that, you know, these
00:11:07
applications can take a year or two even. So, I signed up. But, yeah, quite recently, you know, been missing my
00:11:15
family. They're back in Kenya. They had to leave. Um, and I'm going back regardless because of
00:11:22
my family. So, I I flipped the switch and um I got a call from my agent. He's
00:11:27
talking about races again and saying, you know, when are you going to be ready after,
00:11:32
you know, after your treatment here? And um I uh I said, you know what, I can be
00:11:39
ready in September. >> I'm that guy, you know, I flip a switch and I get ready real fast. just discipline,
00:11:48
focus, and uh the training, everything that happens, I can get fit really quick. So,
00:11:55
>> there's so much to unpack in that one answer there. Um first, first of all, um
00:11:59
so New Zealand police on hold for now, but maybe one day. >> Yep. >> You'd be a good football soldier,
00:12:04
wouldn't you? >> Maybe one day. Um yeah, I'm actually hoping that, you know, um more people
00:12:11
will hear that I'm looking for work, you know, sport organization in New Zealand.
00:12:16
um you know it's I I am a runner but I understand sport so I can work in many
00:12:24
lines of different sport um to be useful to this country but it doesn't really
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seem like a lot of >> um federations or that are hiring exathletes um without degrees and that but um you
00:12:37
know maybe in America maybe in you know if an opportunity pops up maybe I'll end
00:12:42
up over somewhere else. Oh, something will I'm sure you've got so much wisdom
00:12:46
to share. And um another thing in that previous answer you me mentioned being back in New Zealand from your your home
00:12:51
in Kenya for treatment. >> Yeah. So I knew that would come up. Um got to give a shout out to South City
00:12:59
Health in Hamilton because that their treatment um you know it's it's helped
00:13:04
me and uh you know it was a pretty big scare. I mean anything to do with cancer is um it's a shock. you know
00:13:13
>> what have you. So you you're living with cancer at the moment? >> No, cuz uh it all got removed. Um
00:13:18
>> what was it? What sort? >> So yeah, I'm I'm no doctor, man. I I
00:13:24
kind of tried to block my ears to um you know, melanoma or the other ones um the
00:13:30
the skin cancer treatments um and all that, but uh they did make me very aware of what
00:13:37
it was at the time. And um yeah, the small operation uh became uh infected and you know not not to my own doing but
00:13:47
you know this happens and I had to postpone my trip three times. My family had to go back on the 20th of April and
00:13:56
yeah, I was left here to deal with, you know, uh, rec the recovery process, which yeah, I mean, everybody's like,
00:14:05
okay, it's, you know, it's on your shoulder, but you can't even walk
00:14:09
normally. You can't swing your arm. And um, yeah, it was about 10 stitches. >> Yeah. Not not too bad, but
00:14:18
>> you are you Yeah. So, the prognosis is good. >> Yeah. So they they got everything. Um
00:14:24
and yeah, it's just about the recovering cuz you know the infection and stitches
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ripped and tore a big hole, opened the com completely open the wound again and >> Yeah.
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>> You right. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot to unpack today. I I I
00:14:42
promise we there's there's so much fun stuff to your story which we'll um we'll
00:14:45
get to. It's not all doom and gloom, right? >> Yeah. So I'm not I'm no longer shaking,
00:14:48
man. I'm I'm good for it. Yeah. Oh, no. Cuz the um Yeah. Your wife, by the way,
00:14:52
you've mentioned her a couple of times, Maggie. One of the world's best runners,
00:14:55
right? >> Phenomenal. Phenomenal athlete. >> Proudly. Proudly. Now, like
00:15:00
>> like a 218 marathon runner. >> So, yeah. I'm I'm her husband. Um you
00:15:04
know, how we got together and all. It's a long story, but you know, training,
00:15:10
put it short, training with her brothers before she ever came from high school and met her through running. And um
00:15:17
yeah, I saw she was driven and focused like me and we just clicked. You know, she actually told me she was not going
00:15:23
to give me her number, wanted nothing to do with me when I asked for it first time.
00:15:28
>> Why? >> Uh she was so driven and focused and she just believed, you know,
00:15:33
uh having a boyfriend is like a dream killer and um I believe the same, you know, but I saw how she was. I've been
00:15:41
watching for some time. So I kind of like got shut down and um you know to get shut down like that in Kenya usually
00:15:51
um usually that's like okay now you get sour you don't communicate anymore but
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no that wasn't me I was like okay I understand you we're cool went about my
00:16:02
business kept training you know with them and um saying good morning you know morning training and eventually she's
00:16:09
like the sky is different you And uh I said, "Seem you." It was like a
00:16:14
month or two later. I was like, "Seems uh you're not going to give me your
00:16:19
number. Uh I'll give you mine. Balls in your court." Like, you know, and um I
00:16:26
think it was like a week later she called. We just had it off from there. It was 2011. May May 2011.
00:16:34
>> And when when did you propose? You proposed um like straight after finishing a half marathon, eh?
00:16:39
>> Yeah. So, yeah. clip the clips online. It's amazing. So, you you finished
00:16:43
second to Sir Mo Farah. >> Yeah, second to Sir Mo Farah. Um, you know, champion athlete, man.
00:16:49
>> No, one of the best there's ever been, >> you know, multiple Olympic champion. I
00:16:53
mean, uh, second to him. I I'm not going to, you know, be upset about it, you
00:17:00
know. Um it was shame in that it was a great race for me and >> you know I I took him I took him to the
00:17:06
last you know couple hundred meters in that race and >> yeah I mean it it was a great
00:17:12
performance for me. >> So his winning time was and yours was >> um I'm pretty sure I ran 607
00:17:22
or 602 maybe or something something like this. I I bring that up because I feel like a
00:17:27
lot of people listening to this or watching this um will be familiar with the half marathon. They might know
00:17:32
someone that's run one. They probably know that, you know, most people they hope to break two hours for a half
00:17:37
marathon and you're like right on 1 hour. Like it's and you've broken an
00:17:40
hour before in the half marathon. >> Yeah. So that that race actually went
00:17:44
out pretty slow and I know my slowest half marathon is 60 12 seconds. So >> uh it could have been that one.
00:17:51
>> We just closed the last 10k. Well, I pushed in front trying to drop him.
00:17:56
Yeah. So, you know, my it was actually the first time I traveled to uh a race with my wife. My brother was always the
00:18:05
lucky one. He was traveling to so many races with her and you know, finally I got to travel to a race with her and she
00:18:11
just was in my head in the last couple cases when it was getting tough and I was like, you know what?
00:18:17
I don't know how she's finished up there because they set the woman off early,
00:18:20
you know, and it's like when I I find her um at the finish, I'll today's the
00:18:27
day I'm going to propose. And um I had no idea how big it was. I just knew it
00:18:33
was like kind of a special time for us being at the same race together. And I asked the, you know, the elite
00:18:40
organizator uh the organization to go find her. They pulled her up. She was fourth in the women's race and I was
00:18:45
second. and they were like, "Oh, this is a big deal." I started to shake thinking, "Oh, this
00:18:52
is kind of a big deal." And um I was pretty positive of uh her saying yes. You know, so that wasn't the deal. She
00:19:00
just um was so nervous when she came out. She had no idea what was happening. She thought I might be
00:19:07
um getting taken away with an ambulance or something. And yeah, she's actually pulling away
00:19:13
when I'm holding her hand. She's leaning back. She was so nervous and uh yeah, it
00:19:18
was just it was a great that's great memory, man. >> It's so special, eh? And the yeah, the
00:19:23
video footage is online. You can see Sir Mo Farah there like loitering in the background. It's really cool. Um
00:19:30
>> my brother was there too, man. He was um he was fourth in the men's race and he
00:19:34
was hanging out. My agent was there and >> I told them to come across cuz it was a
00:19:39
special moment for us. So >> yeah, that's cool. And you're you've
00:19:44
you're you've still got the record for New Zealand's fastest ever marathon.
00:19:49
>> No. So that's uh that's one I'm after, man. My my brother's time is I think
00:19:55
it's 7 seconds quicker than mine. >> How do I have I got my information
00:19:59
wrong? I've got um 2018 New Zealand's fastest ever marathon in 20826. >> No. So that's my best uh marathon 20826.
00:20:08
My brother's run 20819. >> Oh. So, so you broke Rod Dixon's long-standing record by 33 seconds. Then
00:20:14
your brother broke your record. >> What an [ __ ] >> Who's is is he who's better? Who's the
00:20:20
better runner, would you say? Yourself or your brother? >> Oh, man. That's such a controversial
00:20:25
question now, but you know, I'm I'm going to go say me. um the amount of
00:20:29
results I've had uh top positions and races um consistent times you know and
00:20:37
um you know maybe the better range was always Zayn cuz he had 1500 and one mile on his side you know he'd run some
00:20:44
pretty quick times there um up to marathon but for me from you know 5,000 m 10,000 half in marathon um
00:20:54
>> I'd say I've been more consistent You guys are the fastest twins in the
00:21:01
world, eh? Fastest twins that there's ever been. >> Uh, I think so. >> Yeah,
00:21:05
>> we we actually share the we have um a joint area record for the 10k road race
00:21:12
>> which is 2728. He ran his um in Berlin 10k. I think it was in 20 I think it was 2015
00:21:23
and I ran mine in New Orleans in 2018. Mhm. >> Same second, years apart, different
00:21:30
conditions. I mean, it's it's pretty crazy. We ran the same exact second. Um,
00:21:36
>> so yeah, I'm I'm actually planning my assault on the 10K, half and marathon
00:21:42
records >> right now. >> Yeah. I I mean obviously through um some poor decision making which we've already
00:21:48
discussed he's sort of like spoiled his your legacy or reputation a bit but you
00:21:52
look back on what you both achieved um as family members as brothers as twins. You proud of it?
00:21:59
>> Yeah, I'm I mean I'm proud of what I I do as well, you know. Um,
00:22:04
>> yeah, >> my brother's, you know, back when he was racing and he'd go to a race, um, you
00:22:11
know, I I get more nervous when people I know or really care about go to race. Um, cuz I'm I'm in control of what I do.
00:22:19
But when it's my wife or my brother back, you know, when he was racing was um, I'd get nervous and just say,
00:22:25
"Please get a decent result, at least just a decent result." And he performed
00:22:30
highly, I'd be, you know, stoked. M >> really stoked for him and um I know what
00:22:36
that does. I know for his life and everything at the time and you know big results change lives.
00:22:43
>> Yeah. >> Why don't we go right back to the beginning and then we'll like um like
00:22:51
track the story. Um yeah, we've covered a lot already, but um yeah, I'm keen to
00:22:55
explore the early years in Hamilton and then the um the decision for you and your brother to move to Kenya at 17. 17.
00:23:02
and how how your parents allowed that and how that all came about. But yeah, early years in Hamilton, what are your
00:23:07
earliest sort of memories? >> Well, um you know, growing up, I always had Zayn there and we were, you know, we
00:23:16
were going to Hamilton West kindergarten. My mother would sometimes work there. um great childhood memories of just
00:23:25
playing and um it was always sport backyard coming home from school always cricket football or something you know
00:23:32
always sport ride the bike it was never just sit down for too long and um you know I think us both being there pushed
00:23:41
one another more and um yeah we just came up in sport and yeah school school wasn't for me um I think bullying had a
00:23:51
lot to do with why I started to dislike school more and more. Um, bullying from students. Um, also teachers, you know,
00:24:00
>> really. >> Yeah. I mean, teachers have their favorites, but you know, it's
00:24:07
it's difficult to say, but you when you feel like a teacher holds a grudge against you for no particular reason or
00:24:15
they see you as a bad kid, but you're trying your your best. Um yeah, it's just difficult and um it's
00:24:23
not like I'd ever push back, but when you know when you have that image around
00:24:28
you, it's it's hard to break it, I guess. >> Yeah. >> Is is it painful to reflect on some of
00:24:35
the stuff? >> Does it used to be a lot more, but I've been through so much in the last years?
00:24:41
I uh Yeah, I've kind of left that one behind. I don't feel about it anymore. I've I
00:24:49
feel like I've broken a lot of um bad feelings about that through success. >> You know, I would um right into high
00:25:00
school, you know, I had um high school teachers calling me anorexic and I, you know, I was running like
00:25:07
probably 100 mile weeks. I was eating so much. My mother was saying, "You boys
00:25:13
are making us like you boys are making this family broke >> with the grocery bill."
00:25:18
>> They called my mother. They called my athletic coach, my first athletic coach,
00:25:22
and said, "These guys have to be anorexic." What what our physique was shaping to the
00:25:29
sport. >> Any sport has like, you know, a physique that will suit to the towards the sport.
00:25:36
We're running so many miles that our physiques were starting to shape towards
00:25:40
the the sport of distance running >> and to get such, you know, feedback from
00:25:45
our coach. I got a call from your teacher saying, "You guys are anorexic."
00:25:49
What? >> I was eating like a teenage boy plus some. >> Were your parents together or had had
00:25:57
they broken up? >> No. So, my parents divorced when I was I think 11 12. Yeah.
00:26:02
>> Yeah. What sort of impact did that have on you? Um, I I don't know. I was I was I was weird
00:26:12
man by the stage. Like I I heard a lot of fights. Like most nights I'd go to
00:26:16
sleep hearing fights. So, you know, screaming every night. Um, it's not it's
00:26:23
not an ideal >> um >> environment >> environment for like a kid to grow up
00:26:27
in. Um, I feel like I don't I just I went numb or something cuz I never showed that it
00:26:36
affected me. I was just kind of ready for it. >> But yeah, probably had some role into
00:26:42
why I was able to handle a lot of um emotions the way I did and handle feelings the way I did.
00:26:50
>> I could shut things out maybe a lot longer than normal people would. >> Yeah. Some people aren't well suited as
00:26:58
as a couple, but they're good as individuals. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, uh I understand
00:27:05
it now that I'm a grownup, you know, and um it was better for both of them and
00:27:10
you know, it's sad at the time, but uh >> yeah, some for some people maybe it is
00:27:16
better >> for for everybody. Well, >> that must have been a rough time for
00:27:19
your mom then, like raising raising two twin boys. Did was she the like the sort
00:27:23
of the primary caregiver? So yeah, we were we were more at our mother's house,
00:27:29
but we would go to our father's house during uh some weekdays and every alternate weekend. Um so we did spent
00:27:37
like joint care and >> time at both parents house and that was kind of cool at first and you know
00:27:43
anytime we felt like okay had enough here we'd move to the other place. Sometimes we'd have a fight and like,
00:27:49
you know what, I'm going to the other place. And I mean, yeah, that's that's kind of
00:27:55
it. But I'm not going to get into those. >> Yeah. No, that's good. Why running? Why
00:28:01
did you and your brother gravitate towards running? >> So, yeah. Here's the interesting thing.
00:28:05
Like, running saved my life, man. I was I I was like, you know, bullied at school, like I said, and um I was I was
00:28:17
so talented, man. It it's I was so talented as a kid. Like me and my brother, we were both talented and in
00:28:26
back into primary school, we would win every race like first to second by a long way. It would become into schools,
00:28:33
you know, going into Wetto district still first and second by a long way right up until high school and you know
00:28:42
first and second and you know going right through districts to then it would become North Island Championships and by
00:28:50
this stage in high school people started to train. I had no idea what run like training was. I was a skateboarder in my
00:28:58
mind at the time. I was going to the X Games. Like that was my idea. Like >> the next Tony Hawk.
00:29:04
>> Yeah. Like well street skater, but uh you know I was that guy. And um yeah, I
00:29:10
had no idea what training was. My brother actually joined an athletic club, but he was just racing. He had no
00:29:16
idea what training was. And yeah, I I went to North Islands and it was a pretty rough time for me and I just felt
00:29:24
like I was a misfit and um you know, I was a quiet kid. I was starting to become more and more selfisolated and uh
00:29:35
you know I I I had one thing. I had drive. And I got my ass kicked at North Islands
00:29:42
and I ran a stupid race. I was running in socks cuz I'd got blisters from Yetos. So, I decided I was going to wear
00:29:50
socks. I didn't have spikes or running shoes like to race with, you know? So, I
00:29:55
just wore socks instead. >> Why didn't you just go barefoot? >> Oh, was those blisters, man. I had those
00:30:00
blisters still. So, you know, and uh for one reason or another, I got my ass kicked. And you
00:30:08
know that that feeling that feeling at that time I was like you know what I hate this feeling.
00:30:17
I'm going to be something. >> Mhm. >> And it was I believe it was 2004 and it
00:30:22
was around the time of the Olympics and I I started watching track and field and
00:30:26
uh I watched you know the distance races and I was like inspired a little bit you
00:30:32
know >> but I was inspired by what I wanted to do and I had no idea of training. I just
00:30:38
started going out for a run as hard as I could for as long as I could every day.
00:30:43
I came out, you know, a month or two later into cross country season and um I was unbeatable.
00:30:52
>> That's when uh a club coach tried to recruit me and um yeah, he took us in
00:31:00
and uh started showing us how to train and uh you know, I went to a my first club
00:31:08
championship and I got a bronze medal in an age group that had, you know, a couple years on me. So, I was competing
00:31:14
against older kids, but I got a bronze medal in a my first national championships.
00:31:21
>> So, you got a taste for it. >> So, yeah, that was a taste. I was like,
00:31:24
well, next year I'm going to win the gold. And you know I was never stopping
00:31:29
like from there you know I I had no idea of world youth championships and all these things to
00:31:35
come but as soon as my coach saw that I was able to compete at that level >> he started mentioning these things to me
00:31:42
and I said I'm going next year I was selected for the world youth championship one year of training
00:31:49
and I was making national squads >> and you know this is this is happening
00:31:53
as a kid so talent was obviously there and Um that was 2005. >> Your talent's only going to get you so
00:32:00
far though. You got to do the work which you guys have most definitely done. >> Yeah. So drive, passion, whatever you
00:32:07
know want to call it. Um you got to have a work ethic. >> You can't buckle when things get hard.
00:32:15
And um you know it's 2006 I went to the world junior cross country and this was this
00:32:23
was the changing point for me cuz I came up with this crazy idea you're talking
00:32:27
about you know I wanted to go to the world cross the following year which was in Kenya and I came up with this idea
00:32:34
that you know I'd met some of the Kenyans and they were like you know come come across for training before the
00:32:39
championship. So, I I said, "You know what? I'm going to I was 16 at the time and uh I went
00:32:48
straight back home and uh you know, started speaking to my parents about it. They're like, uh, you know, it's an
00:32:54
idea, but >> it'll fade. It'll fade." You know, >> and my brother was like, you know, he's
00:33:01
not on ship yet, but you know, he never imagined he'd be going to the World Cross or something, so he thought it was
00:33:07
just for that. But no, I had bigger ideas. >> Yeah, because the um the the place that
00:33:14
you moved to in Kenya, uh Eton, is that how you say it? >> Yeah. EAN spelled it T E N. It's like
00:33:21
considered the home of distance running. Um they do camps there now where you know, Europeans from all over the world
00:33:27
go there and they train for a couple of weeks. But um you guys were groundbreers
00:33:31
like no no no white dudes were going there at the time, right? >> Yeah. So I mean the E10 always had those
00:33:38
um I think it was just a few years before we went there they they had those you know four fivestar hotels like a
00:33:45
couple of them >> but still nobody had recognized this place for what it was. Um yeah very few
00:33:53
very few foreign athletes went through. M so when you tell your your parents um your mom and your dad that you want to
00:34:01
move to Kenya at the age of 17 um yeah what what do they say? >> Well I didn't tell them that cuz you
00:34:08
know that then it would have been a definite no >> right. >> Yeah. So
00:34:12
>> I thought I thought maybe they were like reluctant at first and then they just
00:34:15
sort of soft into the idea or they got sick you you wore them down or >> Yeah. So even athletics New Zealand have
00:34:22
l life life advisers and uh they were going against the idea and saying no do not let them go early you know Africa is
00:34:29
a dangerous place everybody has this idea that you know it's it's a place of
00:34:35
crime and you know I don't know if racism comes into it but this this idea needs to like stop. E10 is like the
00:34:45
probably one of the safest towns I've ever been in. You know, 70% of the town
00:34:50
is runners, >> all trying to be a professional. >> You know, some of them maybe just trying
00:34:56
to avoid farm work, but you know, it's it's runners with the same idea. There's
00:35:01
not much crime in E10. >> Hamilton's more dangerous. Um, so, you know, it's um how I came about
00:35:10
like I was going to the World Cross and I'd been selected for the New Zealand
00:35:15
team. So, I was going to go anyway. It was just whether or not my parents would let me go sooner.
00:35:23
And they knew if they said no, I was going to go and find my own money and do it without them. And that was not going
00:35:31
to be in a way that I'd communicate well with them afterwards. They just knew I
00:35:37
was doing it. M >> so um you know with their with their blessings like you know I went
00:35:46
and they they they gave me one condition. They pretty much forced my brother on me and uh you know he was
00:35:52
selected at the time to go to the Oceanana track and field champs and he had to choose between coming with me or
00:36:00
going there to compete for himself. He wasn't with the World Cross team, but he
00:36:05
uh he chose I'm going to go and away we went. >> So So you go there. How much money do
00:36:12
you have? >> Um >> what's your plan? What's your plan when you get there?
00:36:18
>> So yeah, the here's the part of the story that most people don't know is
00:36:22
that we had a friend, Brooke Bellichu, which is a New Zealand citizen, Ethiopian originally descent. um he'd
00:36:30
gone back to visit his father in Ethiopia. So we were going to Ethiopia first and this was in I think late late
00:36:39
October um 2006 and we stayed with him right up until New Year in Ethiopia. So we had like a pretty good safety net
00:36:53
to begin with. He showed us the ropes around in Ethiopia. you know it's a big
00:36:57
city in Addis Sababa but um yeah time he was he was leaving and we were leaving to Kenya he came back here and we hopped
00:37:07
across the border on a flight and um yeah 1st of January at about midnight 2007 we touched down in Kenya
00:37:18
my brother was actually like hey bro what do we do as we're landing I was like you know what we don't have phone
00:37:25
numbers we I don't have anything. I know the place that these guys train. I know
00:37:29
the name of it. That's all. So, let's go get the bus, head out into the night,
00:37:36
and go find these guys tomorrow. Um, worst case scenario, you know, we'll find a hotel for the night. So, we got
00:37:45
Yeah. out of the airport onto a bus, pitch black. If anyone knows like anything about Africa, but the the dark
00:37:54
and night is dark. At that time, there's no street lights. Kenya is a different
00:37:59
place. So developed now, but back then potholes all the way all the way to Elder. Some, but so bad you'd hit the
00:38:08
roof with your head, you know, on this uh bus. We traveled to Elderets. You know, 6 hours later, we're arriving
00:38:16
early hours of the morning. Um you know we stopped we got off found a hotel for like a couple hours sleep
00:38:23
that got up went to you know asked for directions to a stage which uh is a public transport
00:38:31
and um went out to the area to find these athletes I knew >> that was you know
00:38:38
>> so you didn't have like a contact number or >> no no >> and I suppose this was sort of pre pre
00:38:44
email as we know it like you didn't have any electronic devices or phones I I had
00:38:49
you know we had cell phone stay in touch with the parents and all that. um had enough cash, had a you know, credit card
00:38:59
um for you know, emergencies and all that. But yeah, I mean it it was pretty scary at the time because, you know, my
00:39:06
brother was also leaning on me to make decisions and I just, you know, I was in luck cuz the
00:39:14
first runner we stopped on the side of the road, we're like, "Hey man, uh do
00:39:18
you know Benjamin Limo? Do you know?" He's like, "That's my uncle." Ah,
00:39:23
>> let me take you guys to him. So, he he took us down the road to this camp in
00:39:28
the middle of the countryside and they just finished their their tea in the morning like, "Oh, we're about to
00:39:35
go out for some intervals um on the hill. You want to join us? We're dressed
00:39:41
in running here." Like, yeah, sure. Straight into training. Yeah, let's do
00:39:48
it. >> And what's um Yeah. describe to someone that's never been like um how difficult
00:39:53
the altitude is. >> Well, um you know it's it's pretty tough to say, but you
00:40:01
feel it so much on hills and that's that's never going to change. Like you'll feel it walking up hills.
00:40:08
>> It's crazy. You just you find yourself panting. If you want to have a
00:40:12
conversation with somebody, you're going to find yourself struggling to speak
00:40:16
while you walk up hills. um while you adjust, you know, a fitter you get there um sure, but the hills never change, you
00:40:25
you feel it like you can't breathe the same. I >> mean, we were young at the time and um
00:40:31
it's one of the encouraging things for us the whole time. We knew we were young
00:40:35
and we were going to take this uh environment and develop, you know, bigger lungs and uh you know, get a
00:40:42
better cardio system to handle the sport. It's amazing that that age 17. Was it
00:40:50
young 17 or late 17? Like were you closer to 18? >> Uh yeah. So we I believe we turned 17 in Ethiopia.
00:41:00
>> Wow. >> And in November. Um >> that's I I think you'll get to How old's your
00:41:07
son now? >> My son's three. He's turning four in July. >> I reckon he'll get to the point where
00:41:12
he's like 16, 17. And at that point, you'll be like, "What the [ __ ] was I
00:41:16
thinking?" Like, it's crazy what you guys did. >> Uh, >> you just had this vision, eh, this this
00:41:21
burning desire. >> Yeah. I mean, I I believe we said it we've said it on
00:41:28
a few documentaries that we were both involved in, but coming back here or bailing on the idea that we had to
00:41:37
become successful before, you know, um, coming back was, you know, that was failing. M
00:41:44
>> and coming back here was worse to us than dying at the time because of how
00:41:50
bad a feeling we had back here with all the bullying and everything and um people telling us you can't do it
00:41:59
and you know some it's you know it's cliche everybody says it you can't do
00:42:05
something and you hear all these athletes talk about how um people have always pushed that idea that at some
00:42:12
point in their careers you can't do something and that motivates them. Well,
00:42:15
it does. >> You know, it definitely does. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Use your haters as motivators as
00:42:24
the saying goes. >> Yeah. I mean, and uh you know, it comes to a point where you don't actually care
00:42:29
>> what you know they say to you anymore, but it's still it's like thank you. You
00:42:34
don't believe I can do that? >> Yeah. Use it. >> Do you still I mean you you've done so
00:42:39
much. Do you still feel like you got something to prove or not really? Uh well now it's more about me achieving
00:42:47
what I want to achieve before you know I end my career. I believe I still have you know as many years as I want to
00:42:54
have. I mean look at Elliot. He's he's a lot older than me and he's still going.
00:43:00
>> Elliot Kipogi. Yeah. Do you um >> Yeah. Do you know him? >> Oh yeah. We
00:43:06
>> Oh my god. >> We good. We good mates. >> Really? Yeah. Yeah. So when you actually
00:43:10
his name came to by the way he's my favorite athlete of all time. If he ever
00:43:14
gets um done for doping or anything I'll be devastated. >> Oh he he he won't man. That guy's Yeah.
00:43:20
>> But when you talked before about being a young boy in the Hamilton watching the
00:43:22
2004 Olympics was was he on the track then was did he win the the five or 10,000 meters?
00:43:27
>> So he he was in the in the 2004 Olympics in Athens and um he was third. He had
00:43:32
won the world championship the year before. So, he was a big threat, but yeah, he got um bumped back to third in
00:43:39
the 5,000 there in Athens. And um I actually met him my first day in Kenya. I'd never met him before, but because
00:43:47
the the camp that I first went to was uh full, they sent me down the road to another one. This had Elliot in and he
00:43:57
was one of the first guys to welcome us and say, "Come in and um you know, let
00:44:01
me make a phone call to the coach, see if the camp is full. And um >> Coach Patrick Sang.
00:44:08
>> Yep. Coach Patrick Sang who said send them to Elderette back to where we you
00:44:14
know stored our bags in the hotel. Come meet um come meet me in Elderat. So yeah
00:44:20
met Patrick Sang day two the next day as well. But yeah still had no place to stay. So I spent the first few nights in
00:44:28
that hotel pretty comfortable to be honest. >> Yeah. Everyone thinks Kenya's, you know,
00:44:35
got nowhere to stay, man. It's got hotels. Like, come on. >> I mean, surely not as nice as like the
00:44:40
Novatel Tyanui. >> Oh, you know, like if you know the Hilton or these type of places that I
00:44:47
mean, they have hotels of of that standard. >> Yeah. >> So, sorry. I just can't get over um the
00:44:53
fact that you're bros with Elliot Kimchigi. This is insane. What? Yeah. What's he like? So uh
00:45:02
>> because the the Elliot Kipoki that that I know is um just quiet and humble. Um
00:45:08
you know he talks about the power of discipline and talks about you know impossible is nothing and all that sort
00:45:14
of stuff but you like do you joke with him? >> Yeah you clam around a bit. Yeah, you
00:45:19
can definitely um during workouts and stuff u when I was training with them definitely would have a laugh and uh you
00:45:27
know um he he's really uplifting, encouraging and you know all the media and all the interviews that he's forced
00:45:35
to give these days and um you know I say forced but you know he out of his own you know generosity he he he goes for it
00:45:43
and um you know they ask him to preach about all this type of stuff over and over again. But he's genuinely that dude
00:45:50
like >> he he wants to inspire everybody in the world to be running um to be as healthy
00:45:57
as possible. >> Um but inspire people for to be the best they can be in any area of life. M
00:46:05
>> and uh yeah he inspired me like the best story I have with Iliad uh for this is you know I keep telling
00:46:14
um kids whenever I meet them because they want to know about Iliad too but you know this was in 200 um 2010 when I
00:46:23
made a major breakthrough. I was training with him full-time all track sessions um under Patrick Sang and you
00:46:31
know I I was starting to come up but we were doing a session a workout of uh 15 by 400
00:46:38
and you know I was I was struggling but I I was finally holding with with these guys and Elliot you know we did a set of
00:46:48
eight set of five and set of two and I held all the way through the set eight, set of five, and then, you know,
00:46:57
we have a longer recovery before the set of two. And now it's it's showtime. Like
00:47:03
the set of two is flying, flying fast. And Elliot said, "Jake, you're leading
00:47:10
this one." And I was like, "Hey man, I don't know if I can cope. Like, I don't
00:47:15
want to mess up your guy's workout." And he's like, "Don't worry. I've seen you.
00:47:20
You You can do it." He's like, he's like, "Don't worry about that, Jake. You
00:47:24
you can do this. Like, you you got it." I was like, "Hey, man." And he's like,
00:47:29
"No, no, there's no more time to think. You're in front. You're doing it." And
00:47:33
he really was like, "You you got this." And he's like, "I'll follow you. You'll
00:47:38
be right." And um, you know, I was hauling ass going through 200 and I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm doing
00:47:45
this. I'm on it." And then I'm entering the home straight, 100 meters to go, and
00:47:53
two of these other guys in the group start sprinting past me. And I'm like thinking, "Oh man, I'm I'm off I'm off
00:47:59
the pace. I'm not going to hit." And I'm waiting for them all to pass me. But I'm
00:48:04
like trying my best. And uh I crossed the line, I hit the 55 seconds, >> which you know, maybe people should go
00:48:12
out and try and hit 55 seconds at the track to know how hard it is, >> yet alone it being number 14 of a
00:48:18
workout. >> Yeah. And at altitude. >> And at altitude. Um >> I can say I've done a lot of running.
00:48:24
I've even written a book about running. I've never broken 60 seconds for a 400
00:48:28
meter. >> Yeah. So, you know, um, at the end of this, it was only those two guys that
00:48:34
had passed me. And I looked around, I was like, Elliot, hey, hey, man. Um, he's like,
00:48:42
good job. I was like, hey, hey, why didn't you pass me, man? He's like, you
00:48:46
you did the requirement. You hit the pace. And I was like, but these other guys,
00:48:51
he's like, don't worry about those other guys, man. You you did the pace. you you
00:48:56
did the what we were required to do and that's training. You did a great job.
00:49:01
And man, I was like so pumped up after it. I was like, man, I'm gonna have a
00:49:06
great season. I can do this. Like number 15, I I blew up pretty bad. I I didn't I
00:49:12
wasn't able to maintain the pace on number 15, but um >> yeah, full of full of encouragement. And
00:49:20
it's it's that story that I take away and I'm like, that's Elliot
00:49:23
>> to the bone, you know? cuz any um anyone that's not really into running that's
00:49:29
listening to this or watching this may not may not be familiar with who he is, but he's he's sort of he's the goat,
00:49:33
right? Like he's the greatest that's ever done the marathon. >> Yeah. Yeah. And he he doesn't hold the
00:49:37
current world record, but the multiple times he's broken his own marathon record and you know from right up from
00:49:44
5,000 10,000 the amount of influence he's had and um production he's had
00:49:50
inside and outside of running, >> you know, um he's changed so many lives.
00:49:56
He's um you know, given people jobs. He's he's he's that guy, man. He's um
00:50:02
you know he he's a superstar and yeah I don't think anybody outside inside the
00:50:09
running world doesn't >> respect what he's done for the sport. >> Um I'm so excited. I'm I'm going to take
00:50:16
him on later this year at the Sydney Marathon. >> Yeah, I know. I know. I know.
00:50:19
>> Bring it joy. >> I know. But uh my my my thought um when I heard you were going to Sydney was you
00:50:25
know what? I'm going to I'm going to give him a shot when I get back to Kenya
00:50:28
and um see if at least he has time to meet you. But um cuz I believe you met Patrick Sang.
00:50:35
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. >> Was it in Boston? >> Yeah, it was. Yeah. Um I had a podcast
00:50:39
um with um this American author called Sarah Gearart who um shadowed Coach Sang around for a while and wrote a book
00:50:45
about it called We Share the Sun. It's a great book. >> So got to meet Patrick. Um yeah, Elliot,
00:50:51
just huge huge fan. So does he sorry I know this is your podcast but just a couple more on this.
00:50:56
>> So he from he still lives pretty simply right? So he's got his own training camp
00:51:01
>> and he's there Monday to Friday then goes home to for the weekend with his
00:51:05
family or No. >> Yeah. So the training camp is um actually owned by his management. So his
00:51:11
management is um you know global management. It's a it's an agent who runs that management and um they've
00:51:18
become so big that they have multiple agents working for that company. >> Um their job is you know organizing
00:51:26
these athletes uh sporting careers. So they get them their races, they get them their shoe contracts, you know, um they
00:51:36
organize their appearance fees, uh which race is best for them to achieve, you know, um you know, what number one
00:51:43
making money um and also making a profile for themselves to better their career as an athlete and um you know,
00:51:53
>> just become the best they can be. So that that's the role of their management. And in Kenya you'll find
00:51:59
managements have these training camps facilities. Um so Elliot stays out there with
00:52:07
only athletes of that management and there you know every management is close-knit. The athletes obviously train
00:52:14
together spend a lot of time together. So yeah he's um you know he's the he's
00:52:20
the role model. um very disciplined lifestyle out there. Very simple. Um but that's the way he's always done it and
00:52:29
he's motivated to continue to do it. >> Yeah, he spends time away from his
00:52:34
family and um that's that's a big sacrifice for him. Um I'm sure he love
00:52:40
to spend more time with his kids, but yeah, it's um it's tough for him, I'm
00:52:46
sure. But to be successful, that's the way he needs to do it to be successful.
00:52:52
And um he's still doing it. >> Still doing it. >> Discipline, you know.
00:52:58
>> Yeah. And that's um that's one of his slogans like there's freedom and
00:53:01
discipline. >> That's the slogan. But I I was in um I was lucky enough to be in Boston for the
00:53:06
marathon in 2023 where where he in commas um choked and I think it was still a top five finish and like 207 or
00:53:14
something like that. and he uh but he still even though he dropped off the pace and some are blaming the shoes or
00:53:19
the weather conditions um he didn't DNF like he just carried on and um gave it
00:53:23
everything he had until the finish which I I thought spoke volumes about the man.
00:53:27
>> I actually find that more inspiring um personally that he you know he's known
00:53:33
to win everything and everybody thought he'd win and >> the fact that he didn't drop out he took
00:53:38
it like a man finished like that that spoke to me. I was like, "Good on you,
00:53:45
buddy." Like, I saw him how hurt he was at the finish and how, you know, he
00:53:50
didn't feel good about his result and I was like, "That's the athlete and you I
00:53:53
know you're going to come back." >> But, um, yeah, me and Elliot, we got
00:53:58
something else pretty big in common. And then um yeah, I I I hate to say it, but you
00:54:06
know, the may maybe it was the downfall of his um career of being uh missely judged.
00:54:16
>> You know, there was a whole lot uh surrounding Kelvin Kipum's death.
00:54:22
>> Oh, this is the Yeah, he died in a car crash last year. He was the world record
00:54:25
holder for the marathon. >> Yeah. So elaborating that for for everybody listening, yeah, Kelvin Kipum
00:54:31
is the current world record holder. He came pretty much from nowhere to run um a few marathons getting quicker and
00:54:40
quicker until he, you know, broke the world record. And you know um of course being in sport
00:54:48
everybody said Elliot and um even Patrick Sang have to be involved and this is you know because of the way he
00:54:54
died in a car crash and bringing their names into it like I mean it's crazy how
00:55:02
this sport works man sport is sport still at the end of the day life and what we have to go through as
00:55:09
professional athletes is crazy and Elliot got accused accused of being somewhat putting a hit out on Kipum and
00:55:20
I mean the amount of rumors that came around and then people threatening his family's lives man threatening to burn
00:55:27
down his businesses that have given so many people jobs and like just yeah the threat on his life he had
00:55:37
to have security follow him 24/7 and um I I personally ly felt felt that because
00:55:46
it had nothing to do with him and it brought him down because you know he's so he was so used to being this uh you
00:55:54
know public figure inspiring the world and I think what motivates him is inspiring other people
00:56:01
>> and now he wasn't feeling like that same guy that he was inspiring many instead
00:56:08
he's receiving hate >> to a whole different degree and I received like a hell of a lot of hate
00:56:15
after my brother's vi doping violation. Um so I mean it just feels like it was
00:56:23
similar situations and um for me my running went down as well. I felt um I I became really depressed.
00:56:32
>> Well, it's an unwarranted uh distraction, isn't it? >> Yeah. And uh you know that's like
00:56:39
it's it's it's uncalled for and um I mean, professional sport, we're always
00:56:45
going to be in the the ey line of the public and you step a foot wrong or um something gets accused on you. Um
00:56:52
>> yeah, it will it will play a role one way or another. >> Mhm. >> But it will definitely affect the
00:56:59
athlete, you know, negatively. M knowing what you know now um yeah would you go back to Kenya at the age of 17
00:57:10
with the benefit of hindsight so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so
00:57:12
say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say so say you could go back in time and speak to 16year-old um Jake
00:57:17
you know would you would you say don't do it or would you say do it like has it
00:57:20
has it been a net positive experience >> so I have this huge life story and uh
00:57:26
the amount of hardship that I've actually suffered um I don't I think uh
00:57:32
you know I don't recall an athlete having to deal with all that I've had to
00:57:36
deal with in my career man like I've had to deal with a lot of extra [ __ ] that most don't um and if I went back
00:57:46
I I I can't say I and this is me speaking now because you only have enough patience in one lifetime to do
00:57:53
that. >> There's no way in hell I could do it ever again. >> There's no way I couldn't suffer that
00:57:58
much. I I couldn't do it. I can't do it. Um and if I had to speak to my younger
00:58:06
self, I'd say don't do it. But I'm not going to have any regrets. Like I I should have gone for a
00:58:13
scholarship in the States and they were still calling while I was in Kenya suffering, but I took the route I did
00:58:18
and um I got my wife and son to show for it number one. >> And I can't have regrets of that.
00:58:25
>> Like I have family, man. It's >> it's everything. You know, that's life
00:58:30
and that's everything. Yeah. >> But when you say you you were in in Kenya suffering, like what what do you
00:58:34
mean? >> Oh man. Um I mean, let's say life isn't good when you don't have money and you don't have
00:58:44
um you know, a society where they understand you. Um you stay through such a crisis like election violence.
00:58:57
You see death all around you. Um you suffer medical conditions like malaria, typhoid, um sicknesses, you know that
00:59:07
you um didn't go to get treatment because uh hospitals had abused you um and tried
00:59:15
to make money out of you. And you know, I almost died. I was I was 18, 19 years old. I almost died a few times just
00:59:26
lying in bed how sick I was. And um yeah, we went to bed on a Friday night, I think it was. And we woke up on
00:59:33
Sunday. Both of me and my brother were sick at this the same time. We woke up on Sunday only because one of us woke
00:59:40
up. But that's pretty scary, man. You sleep for more than 24 hours. There's
00:59:44
something wrong. >> Like, so I've heard stories about it. There was some YouTube documentary I watched um
00:59:54
and you talk about um yeah the malaria sleeping on concrete floors for a time surviving on um just bread with jam on.
01:00:03
>> Yeah. So >> like you you said before the hotels are pretty good but uh I feel like you're
01:00:07
glossing over some of the um some of the some of the gnarly you know crunchy stuff that you guys went through.
01:00:12
>> Yeah. So once you're out of the hotel and um we were in Capagat and we got
01:00:16
everything stolen from us cuz the only camp that was um like having space at the time was a
01:00:24
rundown camp and a lot of the athletes there were just trying to avoid farm work. They were still trying to make it.
01:00:32
Um, and yeah, those guys stole everything from us until we had one pair of shoes,
01:00:39
one, you know, our phones went, our camera went. We basically had nothing left. Um, and I
01:00:46
ran into someone I'd met the year before in the World Cross. And he saved us. Um,
01:00:51
he told us, um, come to E10. I'm going to find you a place to stay. And that
01:00:57
made us move from Cap to get to E10. And you know, he's the world record holder for steeplechase. And
01:01:04
>> you know, he's he's known in us a hard man like um really stubborn and he
01:01:10
people say he's not a gentleman, but man, what he did for us and I mean he there was times that he
01:01:17
was hard on us too and um said, you know, when we're speaking too much about
01:01:21
training, he said, "Oh, that's nothing. You've done nothing." Uh you know, just to make us wake up.
01:01:28
and um realize actually we still got levels to go before we ever do what he's done.
01:01:36
>> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I mean as we moved to E10, he offered to buy us a mattress
01:01:45
and he bought us a mattress. He wanted us to ask for two mattresses. I was like, "Man, you're doing enough." Like
01:01:53
we didn't we stayed um quiet. We didn't ask for anything. So we ended up
01:01:57
sleeping on the same mattress on a you know concrete floor in a like what 9 by9 room single room concrete cell.
01:02:08
Yeah. Um has bars on the window you know so it does feel like a jail cell you know and um we stayed there and
01:02:17
yeah I mean all these stories are so long because you know one thing moves to another cuz people will be like how did
01:02:23
you survive? always it kept moving. The ball kept rolling and um anytime that we
01:02:29
were at our lowest of lows, there was something positive to pick us up, >> you know. Um Shaheeni got injured
01:02:37
and that's when we survived on bread and jam from the local shop as you know.
01:02:41
They um weren't cooking and we didn't have access to their cooking room anymore. And um
01:02:49
then you know St. Patrick's picked us up which was under brother column had some
01:02:54
great athletes Commonwealth champion at the time Austin Chigi um a young David Reddisha
01:03:01
>> 800 meter world record holder you know um >> he was in high school at the time and
01:03:07
you know to be part of such a de they pulled us to their camp and um to be part of such a development de like
01:03:15
developing group was um where I learned a lot also So >> and you know the ball kept rolling.
01:03:24
>> Yeah. It's literally just putting one foot in front of the other. Eh, just
01:03:27
keep moving. >> Yeah. But I mean it's it's never easy to get your ass kicked by so many athletes.
01:03:34
>> Um when you thought you were pretty good, you know, coming out of New Zealand and um
01:03:40
>> Yeah, it's humbling. >> Yeah, it's humbling. But uh we was just
01:03:44
so driven like and had self-belief that you know we're young, we're going to
01:03:50
make it. And yeah, at the time we were living together, but I believe it was um I believe it was like 2009 that we
01:04:02
started living more so apart. >> Yeah. So >> really are you and your brother? Yeah.
01:04:10
>> Just just sort of becoming individuals. >> Yeah. So, you know, we were growing and
01:04:14
we were, you know, fighting too much. Brothers fight, man. >> You know, >> so he he decided to go with a couple of
01:04:22
his friends and rent a place and uh I stayed where I was and you know, he'd come back to this place in the weekend
01:04:30
and we were training actually he was more in capt again and uh I was more in where we were. Um and you know I was you
01:04:41
know starting to train with GPOi at the time and um at the track and yeah we just it was good for us to become men
01:04:49
you know >> spend time alone but uh when we really fully separated like was after the World
01:04:56
Cross in Spain I think that was in 2010 if I'm not Oh >> yeah. No, 2011 March
01:05:10
>> and uh he moved to Ethiopia, completely different country. Went to chase a girl.
01:05:18
To be fair, he won. He got a girlfriend out of it. Um and I stayed put and he did and I got with Maggie, you know.
01:05:28
Did your um did your parents have any idea like how how bleak it was? like the the malaria coming close to death, you
01:05:35
know, surviving on like jam sandwiches. >> No, man. Cuz >> did you not tell them?
01:05:39
>> We're not going to tell them. No, >> because because they would have made you
01:05:43
come home or >> Yeah. So, >> or they would have been concerned. >> Yeah. People have this idea that our our
01:05:48
parents were not good like No, they were good to us. like anytime we were in struggles or anytime we needed to fly to
01:05:56
Ethiopia or go across the border to Uganda to renew our visa, they they would support us with some cash and that
01:06:04
we would you know get it done. But uh we were not going to complain to them even
01:06:09
through election violence, all the stuff that we got to see or you know death surrounding us. It's like we were not
01:06:16
going to tell them how it was and we were never the target. So that's all we told them. Hey, as bad
01:06:22
as things are, there's no power any 10. You know, power went off for two weeks.
01:06:28
Couldn't charge a cell phone. So, the last phone call was, hey, we're going to
01:06:31
be okay, but know that we're not going to be able to charge your cell phone and
01:06:35
we're not going to be able to speak. So, whatever you're seeing on the news, and
01:06:38
it was worldwide, you know, as bad as it looks, um, know that we're going to be okay.
01:06:45
Like the police had been taking all foreigners uh the few that were there like to the airports flying everybody
01:06:53
out. Me and Zane was we were sound. We were just like we're not going anywhere.
01:06:58
>> Why? >> We were crazy, man. We wanted to make it like we we were so driven and we just
01:07:05
believed that being there we were going to make it as pros. we were going to, you know, do what we set out to do and
01:07:13
there was no backing down. No matter what the challenge, it was we were going to make it.
01:07:19
Yeah. Um, you've talked about like the the election violence and the violence in
01:07:26
the street and I've I've heard about a thing called necklacing. What's
01:07:29
necklacing? >> Oh, necklacing. Um, I actually found out what that was when somebody threatened
01:07:37
to necklace my brother. Um, which is apparently um putting uh tires around you like rubber tires,
01:07:47
car tires, track tires, whatever, and burning you alive. So after my brother spoke out at the
01:07:54
2016 um Rio Olympics about how doping is involved in the sport and um particularly you know there was a lot
01:08:05
surrounding Kenya at the time. um some Kenyan media journalists um you know took to it and uh threatened to
01:08:14
necklace him said you know you should be proud of Kenya because uh you've been
01:08:19
here and had success through here and I knew it was not good because even I felt like the IAAF
01:08:28
and uh all the you know everything surrounding our sport was already in disarray. It was like
01:08:37
>> you are bringing more distribute to the sport like it it doesn't need more
01:08:42
negativity but I was like I know he's trying to do something good but I think he was maybe pushed to like say
01:08:54
something by media and if anyone knows my brother he got no filter so >> he said something.
01:09:01
>> Yeah. Um that's an alarming threat though. Even if it's just like an empty
01:09:05
threat like the threat of necklacing, it's um it's terrifying and quite concerning.
01:09:12
>> Yeah. I mean any any death threat and you you're in a foreign land still with
01:09:16
you know it it is it is. So >> yeah, I was I was on edge after that. That's pretty much why I kind of
01:09:27
>> got off Facebook or got off um some things at the time. >> Yeah. >> Um did your brother have a point then?
01:09:36
Like was um performance-enhancing drugs rien the sport at that point? So news had just been kind of broken um about
01:09:44
Kenya and being this huge having like a huge doping problem and and I was I was still naive to it and everybody's going
01:09:59
to be like what how you live there. I had never seen or heard of anything until that point of Kenya being a like
01:10:08
as bad as it was. And then I started to look back in hindsight and see things and and think of things stiffly. And I'm
01:10:15
I'm starting to become so negative that I realized like, hey man, it doesn't
01:10:21
change anything. You're still going to have to go and compete against these guys. And there was so many foreign
01:10:27
athletes traveling through E10 at the time, like German team, national German teams, Mo,
01:10:34
>> national British teams, you know, and we would all talk about it. I'd see these
01:10:38
guys, you know, I'd train with Moart. I'd go and have a conversation with him
01:10:43
about and and yeah, I mean we we spoke so much about it to the point where I was like, you
01:10:52
know what, I came to this I was like, I want to be proud of what I do. I'm going to
01:10:57
continue what I can do and I believe I can compete with them still >> and beat them.
01:11:08
And it wasn't until, you know, a few years on where a professor from the UK saved my career that he really made me
01:11:16
genuinely believe that because I was speaking a high game, but in the back of your head as an athlete,
01:11:22
it's it's tough, man. You >> How did the professor do that? >> I mean, uh, well, I was I was injured
01:11:30
for almost two years and everybody kept treating my calf. Um, this professor saved my career. He
01:11:39
scanned my back. Uh, he gave me uh my first epidural into L45 bulge in my um spine. Um, and
01:11:51
yeah, it's instantly he gave me a prehab and rehab program and he said, "You you
01:11:57
know what? You're going to have to do this every day of your life to be able
01:12:01
to run or train at the level that you do and compete. And even postc career, you'll have to do it just to be normal.
01:12:09
>> Mhm. >> And at the time it sucked and I was like in disbelief, you know, but I I was
01:12:15
like, what what else am I going to do? So I gave it a chance >> and he also was preaching to me at the
01:12:21
time. If you do this, you're going to be a part of breaking two. You're going to
01:12:28
be a part of the sub two-hour marathon thing. And you know what? You're going
01:12:34
to be very successful. And I was like, what? You know, had the conversation about drugs with him. And
01:12:41
he's like, he encouraged me that drugs only speed up the process to get to your highest
01:12:49
level. Um, which to be honest, I still don't believe. I still believe they make
01:12:55
you a hell of a lot better. There's some freaky performances out there, but yeah,
01:13:01
I mean, he he made me believe that I can compete with them. And because of that self-belief and the
01:13:08
training that he had me now doing and a whole it changed my perspective. I was no longer just waking up in the morning
01:13:14
going for my runs out the door. I was waking up doing half an hour, 45 minutes of pre like pre-run routine on a foam
01:13:25
roller stretching activation for all the muscles and that level of professionalism went up like 10fold. uh
01:13:35
it changed me and instantaneously I had results and you know I hadn't made any money in
01:13:43
my career substantially to any point but that year that he took over and I I made
01:13:49
the decision I'm going all in like this I have to do it. I made more money in
01:13:56
the first two races um under under him in my than my whole career. Wow. >> To that point
01:14:04
>> like um like prize money or is it appearance money? Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you
01:14:09
can you explain like how how that works? Like you mentioned the Puma deal earlier
01:14:13
before which fell through your fingers. Um but yeah, how how does like a really really good long-distance athlete make
01:14:20
money? >> Well, so yeah, number one, it's if you sign with a shoe company, that's like,
01:14:27
you know, that's your base salary. That's like any other job in the world,
01:14:30
you know. And um obviously you sign with that brand. You're not allowed to wear
01:14:35
competing companies. You wear those shoes, you promote them on social media and you run and you perform to the best
01:14:45
that you can with that company wearing only that brand. They give you a base salary. Now there may be bonuses,
01:14:53
rollovers for the years um if you perform well in a race, you may get added salary to the remainder years of
01:15:00
your contract. That's number one. So that that's like the biggest safety net
01:15:05
for us athletes. Now number two is you know the the competitions we go to um many times we have to look into so
01:15:13
many factors whether it be is it just a money race? Are we going there to collect
01:15:19
uh a parents fee? Because people don't understand this is we get our hotel and
01:15:24
transport like flights all paid. We go there but as a safety net and uh respect from the race to us to come and perform.
01:15:36
we get an appearance fee if we are a you know a big athlete with a big profile that will uh bring interest to their
01:15:44
event for people to watch. >> So the bigger the name the bigger the appearance fee
01:15:51
>> you know >> so for example the Sydney Marathon it's the this year it's the first time it's a
01:15:55
world marathon major um Elliot Kipogi is going there so they might be paying him
01:16:00
like a couple hundred thousand half a million. >> Yep. Yep. For sure. um you know him
01:16:06
being a big name and you know the goat of our sport he uh he would probably get a couple hundred,000 US just to show up
01:16:15
>> uh also to these appearance fees if you DNF which means you don't finish
01:16:22
um you'll get your appearance fee slashed in half 50% um so you only get 50% but you still get
01:16:31
something >> for your time because 3 months preparation ation all that training you
01:16:36
put in and you might you might reach 35k and have to stop cuz you get injured you're not going to be able to race
01:16:45
another marathon in a week's time >> you're not going to be able to race
01:16:49
another marathon in a month's time so to come away with a little bit of money
01:16:54
>> from it still is like you know the safety net um so I call like the appearance fees the safety net
01:17:02
>> some people may make a a decision like I have had to and go to a race that was
01:17:09
not paying me any appearance fee. But we believed in ourselves so hard like that
01:17:15
I would perform to make it worthwhile. >> I've traveled to a race, upgraded myself
01:17:21
to business class so I'd get there, it was a long travel to Houston and I upgraded myself to business class
01:17:28
so I could sleep on the flight and get there in, you know, 100% condition. you know, um, not as jetlagged.
01:17:36
And I was looking at the prize money and I was like, you know what? If I place in
01:17:41
the top three, I'll make enough money to cover that bill, which my agent was
01:17:47
covering for me, and then also make some money. And I won the race. And, uh, you
01:17:54
know, that was a ris that was a risk I was willing to take cuz I backed myself. I was in the best shape of my life.
01:18:00
Yeah. But uh yeah, that's that's making money and also we you know racing for prize
01:18:06
money. Some races have more than others. >> So to get to that level, what's what
01:18:13
does the training look like? Like an average training week when you're say deep into like a marathon cycle like
01:18:19
what's what does a really big week look like? So you you guys have shared a lot
01:18:22
on social media. You you don't mess around when you're training, do you?
01:18:26
Like I don't see a lot of watches. Um there's no not an um an air earpod in
01:18:31
sight like you're not clowning around. >> No. So hard days are very hard and very
01:18:36
serious. You do get nervous the night before a hard training. Most athletes actually struggle to sleep. It's like
01:18:45
pre-race almost. You're getting that nervousness, that tension, and it's like
01:18:51
dress rehearsal before rodeo, you know? like you get a little bit of that when you're going to join these big groups
01:18:57
and you have that hard workout. You know what you're doing >> and you know I like to manifest like
01:19:05
sometimes and I I always tell myself it's go time in the morning like and get
01:19:11
some. It's time to get some. You ha you have to as an athlete to do what you do
01:19:17
in training those hard days. Uh, funnily enough, I enjoy I hate the easy days because I'm I'm
01:19:29
trying so hard to recover from those hard days. It's so much pain, so much like that we go through on those easy
01:19:37
days and you just still have to go out there and do it. An easy day might be 20k
01:19:44
uh run in the morning and that's like what >> and what what sort of pace are we
01:19:49
talking? Oh, so for me, uh, it can be anywhere from a a 400 average to a, you know, 418, 420
01:20:01
average. Um, that's an easy day. Yeah. Rolling hills, altitude, all that to the mix,
01:20:08
you know. Um, but our hard days may be something like a 40k long run with a a 312 average.
01:20:16
>> Oh my god. So, you know, you're running a marathon at uh what a a 216 kind of
01:20:24
215 pace at altitude, you know, >> at altitude and on sort of Yeah. What surface are you running on? It looks
01:20:32
like sort of clay or dirt. >> Yeah. So for the hard trainings, a lot of the time these days, we'll go to the
01:20:37
tarmac um road cuz it used to be this famous road used to be uh like a a red soil dirt um but day tarmac did now. You
01:20:48
know, Kenya's >> progressive. >> Yeah, it's progressing. So, you know,
01:20:53
with the shoe technology, um we just put in our, you know, races. They save us from the impact and
01:21:00
>> yeah, >> yeah, we obviously training times got faster. >> Incredible. What's your relationship
01:21:07
like with um like Athletics New Zealand and High Performance Sport New Zealand? I feel like they sort of shunned you
01:21:13
guys a bit. >> Did they have you been unfairly treated by them? >> Rightfully so. I mean, with for my
01:21:20
brother. >> Yeah, >> rightfully so. I mean, >> since the ban. Yeah. But for me,
01:21:25
>> I thought, by the way, I think it's worth pointing out in the podcast I did
01:21:27
with him, I think he said the duty of care from them had been pretty good at that point.
01:21:32
>> Maybe that was in the podcast or maybe it was a message to me afterwards. I
01:21:34
thought they >> I don't think he complained about how how they handled the fallout from his
01:21:39
doping ban. >> See, there was there was somebody came out to Kenya um and I do think that
01:21:46
maybe Athletics New Zealand had some role to play with that. I had no idea at the time, but looking back, I think
01:21:52
maybe he and he was to help with, you know, his job was to help with mental health, but I had no idea he was there
01:21:58
for Zayn. >> Um, for from my perspective, like following the announcement, I have no idea if they
01:22:09
helped them or not. I think they just pulled out. >> I don't think they helped them post,
01:22:14
which was the worst time. >> Yeah. Um I feel and I'm not shying away from this. I feel abused by them because
01:22:22
they did not they did not uh tell me about this. I had taken a trip with my family
01:22:31
um that year. I was walking around uh the headquarters um in uh Oakland with my wife and son and my mother and I had
01:22:40
no idea my brother was being investigated. And it is the IAAF rules that they're not supposed to. But they
01:22:49
should have known this was going to affect me. >> And when the news did drop, they did not
01:22:54
even release a statement saying this is for Zayn Robertson. Make make no mistake, Jake Robertson
01:23:02
is not involved with this. They knew that it was going to affect me like it was me getting banned, too. But
01:23:10
they did not they did not, you know, defend me at all. They could have released to the media saying this has
01:23:16
nothing to do with Jake Robertson at least at very least, but they didn't. >> And I I feel like, you know, I feel
01:23:24
pretty bad some kind of way about them. Um >> they've never reached out to me ever
01:23:29
since. >> Yeah. What about what about other stuff before that? Like we um Olympic
01:23:35
selection and things like that. um to that point. Uh they've been pretty good to me.
01:23:41
>> Yeah, >> there was uh you know they they've always got new people coming in and out
01:23:46
of office and um the ones who were involved at the time, an Australian man, he was he was really good to me.
01:23:53
>> Yeah. >> He um selected me for the teams because, you know, I'd qualified
01:23:58
>> and they'd try and support me in ways that they could being so far away.
01:24:04
Um, you know, it's it's it's tough like but I missed the Olympics going back right
01:24:13
to 2012 London. >> Mhm. >> For one reason or another. Um, Japan was co I got CO so I couldn't go.
01:24:24
And that that's probably the worst one for me. The others I got injured. Rio I
01:24:29
was injured. >> Yeah, >> that one sucked. My brother went and performed pretty well.
01:24:34
Um but yeah, it's selection policy and everything up to that day. Um up until my brother's
01:24:42
violation, um I never had any problem with them. >> Yeah. So what do they base it on? So you
01:24:47
have to hit the qualifying times and then that they just need to work out if there's a chance that you'll perform
01:24:52
well or be competitive. How does it work? >> Yeah. So now it's it's it's pretty
01:24:57
ridiculous. The outright qualifying time is I think it's 2 and a half minutes
01:25:03
quicker than the New Zealand record. >> M >> so to hit that outright is pretty crazy.
01:25:08
I still believe I can run that for the marathon. 206 I think it is now. But um yeah, it's it's tough. And if you're not
01:25:17
going to do it that way, then you need to qualify through points. IAF is basically the World Athletics Federation
01:25:24
and they're trying to make people compete more frequently. It shouldn't go
01:25:29
into the marathon sport because marathoning is not like sprinting or that you can sprint, you know, races
01:25:36
every week or a couple of times a week. You know, we only get the chance maybe to do two marathons in a year.
01:25:45
And if we fail in one, which is very likely, there's 42.2K for something to go wrong. And it can go
01:25:54
wrong like for so many reasons. But um >> yeah, to try and make us compete more
01:26:01
frequently is the wrong idea. And this point system is actually a bad idea for our sport, I believe.
01:26:07
>> And Athletics New Zealand, um they kind of have to go with that criteria for
01:26:13
selection now. And yeah, I mean, government funding wise, I don't think they have things going their
01:26:20
way. So, it's not it's not all on them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, yes. Be become um clear to me in
01:26:29
this conversation today just um you the the impact that your brother's actions
01:26:33
have had on you. It's um Yeah, it's devastating. >> Yeah. Yeah. And um you know it's taken
01:26:40
me a couple years and my performance has definitely dropped >> due to how how emotionally and um
01:26:48
mentally >> you know I suffered man like >> I was I was in a really really bad state
01:26:55
and uh >> you know if there was a a book or something I'd probably release a couple
01:27:02
of you know near near bad situations I got myself into post that M >> but yeah, I was uh
01:27:11
>> what do you want to elaborate, >> man? You're going to take me to that
01:27:15
place again. Oh man, I uh Yeah, I'd ra I'd rather not. >> Okay, >> because people will judge me for that,
01:27:25
man. But >> ah people would judge you regardless. But it's um Yeah, it's No, no, no. I
01:27:33
Yeah, we don't have to go there. But I I just think it's um it's it's good to
01:27:37
share because it just goes to show that the the the impact that this has had on you even though you know you it had
01:27:43
absolutely nothing to do with you. >> I've seen that a lot on this podcast
01:27:47
like you know [ __ ] things happen to good people. >> Yeah. So I I I do you know I have a family of my own
01:27:59
and it always came back to that. So, I'd like to think of this like my son saved
01:28:06
me. >> And I mean, people are going to say or whatever, you know, that I shouldn't
01:28:12
have even got to that state, but I did. And it's hard because, you know, I I was
01:28:19
suffering like uh a lot of things as well, you know, health conditions and all this. B on. But yeah, I mean,
01:28:28
feeling like you got no way forward. um your wife's just come back from maternity leave and um you know she's
01:28:37
she doesn't have a running contract and how's your family going to survive you
01:28:41
got no contract you're not making money anymore so instead of counting your blessings
01:28:47
you always start to count you know as a man as a father you know you're supposed
01:28:51
to provide for your family and that really got to me man beyond anything >> I was like stuck races wouldn't didn't
01:29:00
have me. I'd won these races in 2018. Anything to do with the Boston Marathon
01:29:05
community like that they uh will let you come to the like races. They won't have me still.
01:29:14
Um a famous Peach Tree road race in um Atlanta. They wouldn't have me year one.
01:29:22
I was getting like frustrated. My agent was calling me saying, "They say your
01:29:27
name's tainted. And you know, to be fair, Peach Tree had me back here, too, and they said,
01:29:34
"Sorry, man. At the time, it was just too hard to have you, but we we really are happy to
01:29:41
have you back." And I forgive them fully. They're awesome, and their race
01:29:45
is awesome. But, you know, there's a lot of races that still say they can't have
01:29:50
me, and I I'm, you know, not able to go to where I want to go to and compete for
01:29:56
money. So I was stuck. I couldn't perform. I I was in a bad state, man. So yeah, I you know,
01:30:08
>> yes, I I get that. Seems like a a hopeless situation. And anyone that hasn't been in that sort of state, yeah,
01:30:16
I wouldn't expect them to understand, but anyone that has uh will empathize with you and understand what you're what
01:30:21
you're talking about. You know, if yesterday was a bad day, the day before was a bad day, the day before that was a
01:30:26
bad day, sometimes you think, well, tomorrow's going to be more of the same.
01:30:29
Like, tomorrow's not going to be any different. And it seems like a hopeless
01:30:33
situation that you can find yourself in. That's just um that's mental health, eh?
01:30:37
Yeah, it's um >> yeah, I think I think all our professional athletes um go through some bad stages at some
01:30:46
point >> and it's just you know it's not only part to do with the sport but how much
01:30:52
pressure the public put on us and then how much hate you can receive at points like I just finished watching um you
01:31:01
know Netflix series on David Beckham. Wow, man. What he had to go through. Like all of England, all of the UK
01:31:10
chanting, you know, and people stringing up. >> Oh, burning effiges. >> Like stringing up, you know, hanging
01:31:17
dolls with the Beckham jersey. Like, he deserves >> uh to be hung for the mistake he made in
01:31:23
the World Cup. Like, come on, man. I come to say this again. Like, sports sport at the end of the day.
01:31:30
>> We got families. We got kids who can read media articles about us and like
01:31:38
we're supposed to be okay with that. No, it's going to affect us one way or
01:31:42
another. >> You know, I had this chat to your brother on the when we did the podcast a
01:31:48
few years ago and it's, you know, people that are getting mad at him online, it's
01:31:52
like, how does it impact their life in any like way, shape or form? Like it like it doesn't. It feels like you're
01:31:57
angry about something that doesn't concern you at all. And I had a great even greater understanding of that once
01:32:02
he explained his circumstances and his reasons for, you know, making that poor decision. But it's like, seriously, does
01:32:09
anyone else care that much? >> Like to send hate a hateful DM to a stranger? It's like, come on. So yeah, I
01:32:16
I I got to foresee all that that led to his, you know, his lifestyle changing, his, you know, bad partner like um I I
01:32:26
foraw all that and I man, it was it was bad. like it was bad and then he had some bad influences around him and um
01:32:36
yeah I never imagined it would lead to where it led to >> but yeah the way the way people
01:32:42
responded I know New Zealand's this proud small country that you know has this you know talent pool that very few
01:32:51
make it and he is one of them and you know I don't know if they're embarrassed or they just they they just
01:33:00
went over the top in the sense of, you know, how people reacted to that, but yeah, it doesn't actually affect their
01:33:06
household. >> Well, you've got a guy that's thrown everything he knows away, right? Like
01:33:10
moved to Well, you were there the same day. You moved to Kenya when you were 16, 17. You had this whole career, then
01:33:16
you get a 10-year ban, which means you everything you've known is over. It's
01:33:19
like that's the time where people should be rallying around someone, not sending
01:33:24
them a message. Bear in mind, they don't even know him, saying, "Oh, you're a
01:33:26
piece of [ __ ] You should >> It's disgusting. So, you know where it got it got me is the the people that
01:33:33
know us and they know him like and they were messaging him during that bad time negative things like pushing him off the
01:33:41
edge. I'm like what the hell is going on? >> It like I get it that they haven't been
01:33:49
successful like to that certain top tier in the sport. They've been successful, but
01:33:56
>> oh, you know, it it really blew my mind, man. >> Did have you had any therapy or
01:34:02
anything? >> No. >> No. How did How have you got through this? >> My son, man.
01:34:10
>> Yeah. >> Just holding on to hope, eh? >> Yeah. Blocking, you know, I've always
01:34:16
been, like I said, from a young age, good at blocking stuff, but uh yeah, I go through phases still. I uh some weeks
01:34:25
I feel like I I beat it and then other weeks something hits me and it's like
01:34:32
just you're you're riding waves, you know, and I don't know if like I don't know if
01:34:39
I'll fully ever get over this, but I I got to do the best I can right now. And
01:34:44
>> um looked forward to what I got going for me. And you know, my son's always
01:34:49
going to be there. Um, >> yeah. I mean, >> what's the um relationship like with um
01:34:57
Zayn now? When did you How often do you guys see each other? Is Is everything all good?
01:35:04
>> I Yeah. So, I haven't seen him for quite some time. Um, like I said, we're just in different
01:35:13
stages of our >> This isn't a rift because of the band thing, are you? You were on different
01:35:18
paths prior to that. completely nothing to do with that at all. Um and completely nothing to do with his
01:35:25
other court cases and all that. Um I know New Zealand wrote some terrible um terrible articles. In fact, one
01:35:34
that's should he should actually sue for deface and you know like cuz it was
01:35:38
completely false you know um what they wrote. But uh yeah it has nothing to do with that. I've
01:35:45
just been through a lot for him. I had to drop everything um a number of times to run around, you
01:35:53
know, drop my training and just try and save him. And um some sometimes I think, you know, I feel
01:36:01
unappreciated for everything I've had to do and you know what I've sacrificed.
01:36:07
But um generally now it's just you know we're different stages and different
01:36:13
places in our lives. So it's We we're okay, but we're not we're not
01:36:19
hating. We're not loving like together all the time. So, it's >> you're not sharing a a mattress on the
01:36:25
floor together at the moment. >> Yeah, man. >> So, you'll always be brothers, but yeah.
01:36:30
You can you be friends again? >> Yeah. So, you know, in a way, I'm I'm
01:36:34
sick of defending him and I'm But what are you supposed to do? M >> like I like I said, I saw everything
01:36:41
that happened that led to his bad decisions and I don't >> I don't fully blame him, man.
01:36:49
>> It's like uh it was really hard. >> Yeah. And I don't think you can
01:36:55
empathize or understand until you've been in someone else's shoes. Eh, >> yeah. And I mean I've heard I've heard
01:37:01
multiple people even you know what you just quoted like Kipoki said that man >> Elliot said we can't judge him because
01:37:11
we don't know what he went through. >> Yeah. That's one thing I've got from
01:37:15
this podcast. >> Everyone's dealing with [ __ ] and you don't know what someone else is going
01:37:19
through or has been through. >> Yeah. >> If your career ended tomorrow um Yeah.
01:37:24
would what regrets would you have if any? certain maybe tactical areas where I could have won races that
01:37:36
uh I should have >> really do races where you didn't like reach your perceived potential still and
01:37:42
keep you awake at night? >> No. Um we we we have to move on from those cuz there's always another race
01:37:49
coming. >> But uh yeah, we we learn from them. I'd probably have to say
01:37:57
not signing big contracts where I could have when I when I could have. >> When Essex started their climb again,
01:38:07
they wanted me as their like number one guy. Um, back when they were just starting to invest in this new shoe
01:38:14
technology and I was afraid at the time because Nike already had like amazing technology. Everybody else is playing
01:38:22
catch-up. And yeah, I ended up not signing and resigning with Nike. And now seeing how hard they have gone and
01:38:34
how good their shoe technology is, I I wish I'd have been more of a part of that. I was secretly giving a lot of
01:38:43
information to um some some people involved with giving the information to ASEX. I was like, "Hey man, that shoe
01:38:53
needs more like stability in the heel and you know, I'm I'm pretty good with
01:38:59
that stuff." So, I was >> trying to help out level the game up, you know.
01:39:04
>> But you've you've devoted your um entire adult life to the sport. Have have you
01:39:08
done okay out of it? Like if it all ended today, like are you like you financially are you secure?
01:39:14
>> Um >> you got a place in Ken? >> Well, yeah. I built my house. Um, I have
01:39:20
some guest houses next door that occasionally have some elite um, foreign athletes come through, but um,
01:39:29
financially, no. I'd probably I'd probably have to work. My wife's killing
01:39:33
it at the moment, man. So, that's how we surviving at the moment. like my um
01:39:40
yeah, my wife left uh her agent and that allowed me to take over her cons um like
01:39:48
her coaching again and she just you know to be part of such a big group you cannot individualize the training.
01:39:56
>> So as soon as I indivi individualized her training you know she took off again
01:40:02
and uh has become a superstar. She PBD and it's 218 marathoner, fourth in Tokyo
01:40:09
since I took over her coaching. So mightily proud of that. >> I bet. Jeez, that's um 28 is amazing.
01:40:17
What What is >> Yeah, she's uh currently with Essex and um >> does she have a world ranking?
01:40:24
>> Yeah, she does. Um I think she's around top top 20 still. So >> amazing. Yeah,
01:40:33
>> that's incredible. How do how do you define success now? And has it changed
01:40:36
over the years? >> Well, like I said, I'm incredibly proud of what my wife's doing and um that I,
01:40:45
you know, I I have the coaching input right back, you know, to everything she does in the gym and everything, the
01:40:51
small things, but at the end of the day, it's up to her to take to them and really discipline herself. And
01:40:58
>> I find so much joy and pride in that. for myself. I I really want to get back
01:41:04
out there and do something that I'm proud of >> and I >> like in terms of running
01:41:09
>> in terms of my own running. I believe I have so much more to give. >> I'm just waiting for opportunities and
01:41:17
um >> yeah, I I'd like to sign a deal again that would keep me going for a couple
01:41:23
years, but >> you know um who knows if it will happen or not. I'm not saying
01:41:30
I'll be running for 5 years more. I'm not saying I won't be. >> Cuz how old are you now?
01:41:35
>> I'm uh 35. >> Right. Okay. So that's still fairly young on the the big scheme of marathon
01:41:40
running, isn't it? How old's Kip choke is? >> Especially especially in the marathon
01:41:44
circuit. So >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Your you Yeah. Your good marathon years could still
01:41:47
potentially be ahead of you. >> Yeah. So you know, for most sports it's
01:41:51
uh considered pretty old, but in our sport it's considered young. And um >> yeah, I I'd love to set the national
01:41:58
record, take that one back from my own. And um you know, have something really to be proud of again?
01:42:06
>> Um and if you got told tomorrow you could never run again, who who would you
01:42:11
be without it? >> Like how would I be? >> No. Who would you be? Like if if you're
01:42:17
not Jake Robertson, the runner. So I I I'll still be Jake Robertson senior, father to Jake Robertson Jr.
01:42:26
>> and you know devoted husband um coach to my wife >> as well. Um yeah, I would, you know, I would because
01:42:40
I need to be in Kenya for my family, I would be there for them. And uh, you know, I'd be trying to network my way
01:42:48
into finding a role when we do move, which we're trying to plan a move in next couple years for my son's sake,
01:42:55
back to New Zealand. It's uh it's not cheap here, man. >> That's for sure. So yeah, looking to
01:43:04
find a good job that can allow me to be passionate and give, you know, the work ethic that I have and make a difference
01:43:10
somewhere. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When when your wife and son are in New Zealand, how how do they find it?
01:43:16
Like in terms of people staring at them or any any sort of negativity or racism or anything like that or are people
01:43:22
really kind and good? >> Uh my son doesn't copy any of that. Um my son is full on, man. He loves it cuz
01:43:29
there was so much for him to do here like catching waves at the beach. Loved it, you know. Um playgrounds and my
01:43:36
mother's kindergarten in Hamilton and you know kindergarten here in Kenya is
01:43:41
way different. So so much for him to do here and he just yeah he had a great time.
01:43:46
>> My wife, she loves New Zealand too. like you know New Zealand I don't think uh
01:43:52
Kiwis like appreciate the beaches that they have like we every time we come we're trying to hit the summertime
01:44:01
because we want to maximize the beach >> you know I was a surfer pastime so I
01:44:06
still love to surf sometimes and >> but uh >> yeah like New Zealand's pretty beautiful
01:44:14
>> pretty good place >> I love that >> lots of family and friends here too So,
01:44:18
>> yeah. >> Is Is there anything you think people misunderstand about you?
01:44:23
>> I kind of feel like you and your brother have always sort of been I don't know.
01:44:25
You've always had this sort of thing where people have sort of misunderstood
01:44:28
you. >> I don't know. Is that a fair thing to say? >> Yeah. Well,
01:44:34
I'll speak on my behalf like >> Yeah. Sorry. I I just did that thing where I loved you in together.
01:44:40
>> Yeah. Like I mean I I can speak for all athletes actually cuz I've just watched David Beckham.
01:44:48
I've just watched Aaron Rogers. >> I just watched, you know, so many sporting documentaries and a lot of us
01:44:56
come from like secluding ourselves at a young age, working our asses off like to get to the stage where we're
01:45:05
successful in sport. >> And then you know what happens post that? Some are more outgoing, some are
01:45:11
still, you know, still like that silence. And I mean, the more the quiet the quieter you are and the more
01:45:21
misunderstood you're going to be. I I had a pretty good social media at one stage. And you you always got to put out
01:45:28
the positives and um you always got to put out what's real and what's not.
01:45:33
I mean people think they know you off your social media but generally it's it's not everything
01:45:40
>> it's curated >> you know it it is a >> a side of >> showing the glamorous life and like it's
01:45:49
go time in the morning you know >> all this but they don't see how much
01:45:54
work we put in how painful it is and like there's I can guarantee there's Not
01:46:02
a single professional athlete in any sport in the world that hasn't cried because of pain emotionally or mentally
01:46:09
in the gym just when they're doing like that one extra rep and after they've you
01:46:14
know come out of that emotion that they're there that they they don't stop
01:46:18
and go back to the house. >> They put it they continue to put it in after they've had that meltdown.
01:46:25
>> They go even harder than they were going before that. like there's not a single one.
01:46:32
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think we can adequately um like describe the the sacrifices that
01:46:39
you've made for the sport. You know, we I think we painted a bit of a picture of
01:46:43
what you know, Kenya was like when you moved over there at a very very young age, but um yeah, the the sacrifice and
01:46:49
the work that you've put in is massive. What What do you think um what would you
01:46:54
say your best and worst habits are? Uh my worst habit might be like also in some ways my best habit.
01:47:05
>> That's often the way >> I'm kind of like a yes guy. I always try
01:47:09
and please everybody and as time goes I try my best to not always please everybody because it means that I
01:47:19
can't keep up and I can't and I end up making more mistakes. M >> um so yeah, I'm I'm always there for
01:47:28
everybody trying to be and um yeah, >> my my best habit is just like work ethic, man.
01:47:37
>> If I set my mind to something, uh I'm working like in every single way possible
01:47:44
>> to do the best I can. >> Yeah, that's um one massive takeaway
01:47:49
I've got from um all these podcasts that I've done. Like hard work is the only
01:47:52
cheat code there is. You know, natural talent will get you so far, but um everyone that's had any sort of success
01:47:58
in their life, it's come through hard work. >> Yeah, absolutely. And uh I mean the
01:48:04
athletes mind state, we're not normal people, man. Like we made ourselves not
01:48:08
normal. >> Like at the end of the day, it's sport is sport, but it feels like life to us.
01:48:14
M >> so when we fail we we walk away with this feeling like we're going to die or
01:48:22
the world is over and you usually as you know you become more professional um and
01:48:29
years go by that you're in the sport you you recover quicker from it. >> You don't have that time to be upset. So
01:48:37
you give yourself that little grief and grieving time and you you bounce back and you're like, I'm going to use this
01:48:43
as positive and work harder, >> you know. So >> yeah, you you've been really open and um
01:48:51
vulnerable here today. Are you are you like this in in your private life? Like are you are you good at like opening up
01:48:57
and talking to friends or family about [ __ ] that's going on or do you tend to
01:49:01
sort of bottle things up? >> Oh man, I I I bottle things up pretty bad. pretty bad until I break and then
01:49:10
>> yeah, my wife sees a lot of it and you know um >> So you good at sharing stuff or she can
01:49:15
just tell that you've got the the weight of the world on your shoulders? >> I'm not I'm not good at sharing stuff or
01:49:22
showing really. I uh I bottle it up and I like I'll be breaking in other ways.
01:49:31
So it's like even my wife can't catch why I'm starting to snap. like um but
01:49:38
yeah the underlining issues and stuff it always comes out eventually >> and you know every time afterwards I
01:49:46
seem to keep going. I'm still here man. So >> well you're um yeah you're you're a Kiwi
01:49:52
male. It's one thing we're very good at bottling things up, not talking about
01:49:56
things until we get on a podcast. >> Yeah. >> It's rough. Have you um Yeah. I know I
01:50:02
asked you before about um your counseling or therapy and you haven't had any but yeah what about sports even
01:50:07
a sports psychologist or anything like that? >> No. Um >> maybe talking to someone would be a
01:50:14
>> Yeah. So Athletics New Zealand don't help me. Um they haven't helped me since
01:50:20
um since Boston Marathon. Which year was that that I ran Boston Marathon? I think
01:50:24
it was 2021. Yeah, 2021. of course because my son was born in the last like month before it.
01:50:36
So yeah, I haven't had any support um that would allow me access to that. I reached out to them at one point saying,
01:50:42
"Hey man, I'm not doing too good. Like >> Nike's dropped me. I have no money. Um
01:50:48
Athletics New Zealand is not supporting me anymore like anyway." Um, but you
01:50:54
know, they didn't suggest anything or uh try and help. They just left me to the wind. And you
01:51:03
know, that's kind of why I have maybe this feeling towards them. >> You can't just leave athletes like,
01:51:12
you know, whether they see you useful or not to them anymore. They just leave you
01:51:17
like that. So, >> yeah. More of a duty of care. >> Yeah. I mean, >> even for postc career, man, like
01:51:26
>> there should be they should be trying to help. >> And I know they have that there, but
01:51:32
>> to help people, but uh for some of us, they they just shut down before our career is over. And uh yeah,
01:51:41
I don't think I don't think it's fair >> for me anyway. >> How how are you today? Is today a happy
01:51:50
day? Is today good? Are you Are you good today? >> I was excited to meet you, man.
01:51:55
>> Really? Like >> Oh, likewise. >> Like I Yeah, we've had chats and like I
01:52:01
said, I feel like I know you from all the time we've just spent like messaging
01:52:05
each other or seeing you on the podcast, listening to you on the radio. >> And uh yeah, I was excited to do this. I
01:52:13
didn't know where it was going to go, which direction. I knew it would drag up
01:52:16
some pretty bad >> feelings I have have had. But, uh, I'm pretty pretty pumped about how, you
01:52:25
know, I had the opportunity to do this still. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's been good. It's
01:52:29
been a really enjoyable chat. Is Is there anything that we've we've overlooked? Any any stone that we uh
01:52:35
haven't unturned? Oh, there's probably heaps. Save it for the book. >> Yeah. I mean, future future more than uh
01:52:44
past, you know. Um, past always digs up negativity and um, >> going forward I'm I'm more positive.
01:52:54
>> Yeah. Okay. Future goals like where do you see yourself at say 40 or 50?
01:52:59
>> Hopefully I'm back here with uh my wife and son and you know my wife is still
01:53:06
striving sport. I probably if I haven't signed a nice deal myself, then I'll
01:53:12
hopefully have a career that I'm passionate about. And um yeah, for my son, everyone's like, "Oh, he's going to
01:53:20
be so fast." I'm like, "Man, fast can be in any sport if he wants to
01:53:25
take to sport." >> Yeah. >> He does have good genetics, though.
01:53:30
>> Yeah. should he decide to become a runner. Not that we want to push him in
01:53:33
that direction. >> You know what I keep telling people is any other sport than running.
01:53:38
>> Any other sport than running because I know how hard this sport is. >> And the payoff isn't like other sports.
01:53:44
So, you know, if if he takes to something, I'm going to do everything in my power to help him succeed at what he
01:53:52
wants to do. >> And it's not just sport, man. It's like everything,
01:53:56
>> you know? I reckon a gentle nudge towards say golf or yaching. They seem quite lucrative.
01:54:03
>> Golf is a good one. Tennis is a good one. Hey man, I got a long list. >> Yeah, a Formula 1 perhaps.
01:54:10
>> How's it going there? >> Um, okay. What three words that family
01:54:14
and friends would use to describe you? >> Gee, man, you better ask them. >> Oh, no. Okay. I um
01:54:21
>> people would put crazy down probably. Crazy. >> No. Okay. Well, let let's let's let's
01:54:25
reframe this, but it just it feels like a bit of a bleak way of reframing it. But I had this guy on the podcast called
01:54:29
Doo Allen who's like a multisport athlete and then um won coast to coast a few times and he's um been part of team
01:54:36
New Zealand that won the Americas Cup and he was doing an adventure race with Richie Mccor and in the middle of the
01:54:40
night Richie Mccor started playing a game with his teammates and he said, "Okay, I want everyone to come up with
01:54:45
three words um that you'd like family and friends to use at your funeral." um
01:54:50
which seems like a bit of a bleak way of framing it but um I asked this question
01:54:54
to a lot of guests because it's I figured out it's actually a good way if
01:54:58
you can come up with the answer that you want then you can sort of reverse engineer it and start living that way so
01:55:02
that it's likely to be the words that people will use when that time comes. >> Yes.
01:55:07
>> So what would it be for you? >> So everything comes back to this is the athletes mindset. everything
01:55:14
straight away starts coming back to me about you know who who or my profession >> you know um rather than who I am but uh
01:55:25
yeah um I am hardworking I am loving and caring you know I am I'm so many things
01:55:33
outside the sport >> more than an athlete you know um but yeah I'm I'm street smart I'm wise
01:55:42
like, you know, I might not be school smart, but definitely I made good decisions. You know,
01:55:49
>> uh I've never had the kind of money that other athletes have had, but
01:55:54
>> I've invested all my money into my business and stuff like my house,
01:56:00
everything. And >> I could have gone on vacations and, you know, had parties and all that with it.
01:56:08
So street wise or you know wise whatever you want to call it. >> Oh come on if if it's your funeral and
01:56:16
Maggie's there and your mum's there. They're not saying street wise.
01:56:19
>> Yeah for sure. >> What do they say? What is it? Sensitive kind. >> No he
01:56:22
>> you are sensitive. Eh >> they they would be saying how I was a fun dad. For sure. Um, you know, my son
01:56:30
calls me papa, but with the adventures we go on, you know, I need to put myself in his shoes and think, what does he
01:56:37
want to do today, >> you know, and um yeah, I just I I'm a loving father, man.
01:56:47
>> I'm uh I'm a good husband. I'll leave that to her to say a great husband.
01:56:54
>> But uh Yeah. >> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself? >> Yeah. Uh I am. Um that's you know
01:57:05
it's tough to say man because uh us professional athletes um our our minds our mindset is always that we're
01:57:17
not perfect >> and um that's what keeps us going. It keeps us striving for more. And um
01:57:26
>> yeah, so at the end of the day, most of us are going to say, "Yeah, I'm proud of
01:57:30
myself." But >> we Yeah. We're far from perfect. >> And that's what keeps us going.
01:57:37
>> Yeah. Well, nobody's perfect. Eh, I suppose all we can try and do is be
01:57:41
better today than what we were yesterday. >> Yeah. except uh in a lot of things in
01:57:47
life, you know, it it's harder to do. It's not just a one day turnaround, you
01:57:53
know. >> Yeah. Some days it might be two steps backwards and it's never linear these
01:57:58
things, but >> long-term picture, you know. >> Yeah. But if you wake up each day and
01:58:02
try and do better than the day before, I think you're sort of on the right track.
01:58:05
>> Last one. What What about legacy? How would you like to be remembered >> in the sport and as a person?
01:58:12
>> Yeah. So someone who you know put it all on the line and uh was successful
01:58:20
you know I don't have that Olympic gold medal I don't have and I may never get
01:58:25
that but uh I've had success to a certain degree and you know I am I am having success in
01:58:32
life now with you know a great family. I want to be remembered for being that guy
01:58:41
who was, you know, a teenager who didn't have things going his own way. And I mean, it's the same story with a
01:58:48
lot of sportsmen. >> You know, they they went through hardships and they came out better off
01:58:53
than they were >> because they put it all on the line. It's not it's not easy to get into
01:58:57
professional sport >> and then to have any success at any level. So, I I am successful. I want to be
01:59:06
more. But um yeah, remembered. I want to be remembered as a great father, man. It's a big thing for me.
01:59:15
And >> you know, me and me and my wife, we have we have we have a great relationship.
01:59:22
>> M >> Yeah. So, even post my my son going to college or wherever he goes, you know,
01:59:29
me and my wife, we're going to always be together. I don't see us folding like
01:59:37
um other relationships have around me in my life. >> So yeah, >> it's nice seeing um that smile and that
01:59:45
uh twinkle in your eye when you talk about your wife and your son. It's really cool. I think this is a good way
01:59:49
to end it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, man. My my boy, like I said,
01:59:54
he saved me so many times, man. I I could never I never follow through with any crazy
02:00:00
thoughts I'd had. But um >> just cuz he's you know he's there.
02:00:04
>> Yeah. >> I suppose to repay him all you can do is you be the the best version of yourself
02:00:09
and be the best dad you can be which it sounds like you're doing. >> Yeah. I I try you know again we always
02:00:16
have doubts you know especially as men. Um, they test your patience, you know, definitely they push your buttons, but
02:00:24
yeah, it's uh we just do the best we can, right? We learn, we learn as we go.
02:00:30
>> Yeah. >> Well, we've been going for 2 hours and 27 minutes, which is um you could have
02:00:35
just about run a marathon in this time. >> Yeah, I've I've actually run a few in
02:00:40
210, so yeah. >> Yeah. Hey Jake Robertson, it's nice to finally meet you and connect and thank
02:00:46
you so much for being on the podcast today. >> Pleasure. Pleasure, man. Pleasure.