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[Music] kiwi's Love at First like Finn we're making [Music] waves generate switch online
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[Music] today Lance bu welcome to my podcast yeah it's great to be here I just love
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this setup that is absolutely amazing you said come for a chat I'm like okay
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okay for a chat look at this you want to see it from where I'm seeing it it's
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just this lights camera action dog well yeah I've had a glow up I've um moved
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from um a studio at home which has been great but this is um sort of Next Level and it's so good to have you here as one
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of the first guests in my new studio fascinating guy fascinating guy so um yeah three very distinct chapters to the
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Lance bit story right so um there's the Lance the Builder which is like you from
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when you left school to the age of 35 uh then 22 years in the police doing just about every job imaginable and and with
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your permission that'll make a big part of this um conversation and then since
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then um the third chapter um your own company War which is Wellness awareness resilience and negotiation what what
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does that mean exactly what's War yeah so it was one of those um 3:00 a.m. in
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the morning when you wake up and go I know one of those epiphanies you have and you think um you start a company and
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you think yeah I wish I hadn't have done that really cuz what is warned like warn
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warn everybody but um it's it's so we mainly our focus on Neuroscience so I
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fell into Neuroscience when I was recovering from depression and uh I read a book and another book and then I just
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started to prolifically read and then I read this one book uh by Daniel Arman called change your brain change your
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life and that's where I discovered neuroscience and it made sense it was practical uh it was easier to understand
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how the brain works and I just started there um and then you know stepped forward very quickly to the end of my
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police career and my I said I don't know what I want to do but I'm not staying
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here this place is destructive and um I've had enough of it and um and so my
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wife said well you always like to stand in front of people why don't you do that
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for a living um as you know work in uh contact centers so that's sort of how I
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started and then from there it's just gr to this wonderful business where I get
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to help people and and do some amazing things yeah well you're um I mean you're
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in your your late 60s now um and you're just such a wel no one's ever described
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it like that late 60 late mid you're in great shape for your age and um just the um the the wealth of
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knowledge that you've got from your careers and uh and and also you know personal experience um you know it's
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great to have you here to um you know tap into thank you who you are um you've
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got a brand new book out too anxiety is a worry understanding and managing anx anxiety yes yes so anxiety underpins or
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who we are as as a species really uh we're sort of the only species that recognizes that uh we have a finite time
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most animals don't so we're an animal animals don't realize that they they
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could die at any moment we do and we don't know how long that time span is um
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and that sort of sets us up for when am I going to die but that's how anxious
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people think other people don't think that way and so um it's been a journey of
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Discovery I guess a selfish journey of of writing three books one was to put my police career into perspective um and
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it's a great cathartic thing to do uh the the this next book that came out was
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dark side of the brain it was going to be a funny thing so I I started to realize that um our brain makes [ __ ] up
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but just makes [ __ ] up right all the time it's continually we continually talking to our while we're talking your
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comp in yourself to myself and I'm comparing what you're saying to me and
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we we've already thought of a couple of things in the future the brain is just
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crazy and I started to think about that and I was going to call it our [ __ ] brain and then unfortunately we lost our
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niece to um suicide yeah at the age of 17 yeah at the age of 17 and so because of that um I thought I'd change it into
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a a book that could help people and so um in the my police career as the lead crisis negotiator for New Zealand Police
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um suicide intervention was a specialty and so um I changed it around and so people loved it and then this third book
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was one I never set to write and I was asked by the um publisher to do it and so I did um first year not so good
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second year third year fourth year of writing it I that I really became engaged with it and thought this is
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going to help people and so it's quite a um it's a robust book right so it's not
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something that I'd normally want to do uh but hopefully it'll help people as
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much as possible yeah the um the death of your niece uh to Suicide um when was that
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what year was that oh you're putting me on the spot here it must be four or five years ago
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now yeah easily I'm really might even be more than that yeah and I I want to know
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um what sort of impact that had on your personally because as you mentioned you were the um police crisis negotiator for
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13 years and uh in terms of like talking people down suicide people down you you
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never lost someone um yeah on your watch very lucky so um yeah so with your niece
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like what's s of impct oh it slapped you around um well apart from the actual
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loss of you know a person of a human you do have doubts about I had doubts about
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my job and about my work um as it happened a week before um she took her own life was she was at um a gig that I
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did so a from the same family uh one of the other uh nieces had um cancer had terminal cancer so I I ran a uh a free
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presentation essentially for the uh for her so with donations and um we made some money so she could get some uh life
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longing you know make it little longevity even her life um and she was there the young one and uh and we'd had
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a discussion about a few things but you know to me she looked okay and then one morning we get this my wife gets this
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phone call I heard this horrible scream and it still sends chills down my spine and uh and then you know it's tearing up
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now um sorry it's just a hellish thing sometimes I wake up on a Saturday morning and I think oh why uh and I
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started to think what why should I should I do this job should I help people should I be there you know I
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started the second guess and then I just took time and went well you can only help who you can help and you you know
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to be there at the right time is so difficult and I never ever have never thought that it's a weakness in anybody
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you hear people talking that don't know it's a weakness or selfish it's selfish
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you know well it's not it's the most selfless thing you'll ever do I had
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ideations thoughts of suicide myself um and they're fleeting they but they get they increase
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so the voice that was once our friend as a child turns on us as a teenager and starts to go hey you know you're not as
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good as the other ones you know you're not as good as you know you're not as
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you know you should have you and you think where's where's my friend gone and
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then when you get really down struggled that this voice becomes well I'll tell
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you what uh here's the way out and it it'll just you know you and it does it it says to you you're a
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burden you're hurting people by being here this this thing is it's never
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talked about I talk about it and um and you know when I went to the funeral I was um I was really upset uh because I
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wasn't allowed to talk about because it was she was still at high school and
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there was high school people there are no schools no we don't talk about this
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stuff uh and having researched it and realized you know the actual talking about it bringing it out into the open
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is how you help people and you know uh so all I could say was this is not who she is or who she was this is just what
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happened yeah sad the way because ultimately if that's the way you choose to exit that's sort of what defines your
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life it's the it's the full stop on the end and that's the problem right and
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that's you know um another one that just passed about a year ago M Holland um I I
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spent time with him Dr mahand and U Tom Tom yeah I always call him Dr mahand uh I spent uh 4 and 1 half hours driving um
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I drove him and I in a rental car from uh we were in denan and we had to get across to I think Gore or somewhere
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anyway over the other side like 4-Hour Drive I've never laughed so much in all
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my life uh we got on like house on fire we just and I thought this guy is such a
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cool guy and then you know he gets this diagnosis of a bit of a heart problem and then same thing would have happened
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to him he's just catastrophized he's just gone and fallen over you know and
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and he was a big advocate of of looking after people it's a poor old doctor yeah
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Dr Tom he even wrote a book I've got a book at home yeah I've got he wrote two
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yeah and he signed one for me how's how's your in a voice these days uh it's
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it's actually changed um I ignore it do you how do you do is that mindfulness or um no it's
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just learning that um it's there it's so it's there to keep us safe is is the
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biggest thing right so that's what we've got to realize and but we have to be um
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so our the rational part of our brain doesn't fully develop until our mid 20s
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but up until that point um we believe what we tell ourself and it is real right so as a child um I was punished at
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school um ADHD was was what not was not know and then you're just like a bad kid
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orid that just just you had to sit in the corner and and you know shut up and um but it would always say to me you're
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different to everybody else you know you'll never have a true friend you'll
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never have it but it was always sort of there just to comfort and then it sort of changes around but when we get to our
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mid 20s we can sort of rationalize it provided uh we have support around us and we learn about ourselves the most
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important thing I would suggest all of us can do is learn about ourselves go back to your childhood go back if you
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got report cards go back and and and discover how you grew up what were those trying times and what did you learn from
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them because you always do so um I learned that uh I would never be I would never have a lifelong friend because
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that's not how I see Life um you know I've got lots of good friends but I
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never see them as lifelong friends because uh for me it's people come and go it's just the way the makeup of my
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own brain um I'm so fortunate to have a beautiful wife who who you know don't
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know 9080 we got married so whatever that is 4 years 44 um and you know it's
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been a journey and a half but wow we we're at such a cool place now you so she's my lifelong friend but you know
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going back to your when you're at school you know you see these movies where life
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is supposed to be this this whole like a movie where you've got a childhood friend and they stay your friend for
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life now life's not like that so when you understand yourself and how you manage things and how you deal with it I
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now um I still have down times um I've been going through quite a bit the year
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with um with with pain through injuries uh mainly but lots of pain um through mismanagement of um of um
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Pharmaceuticals and that not from me but from you know on the wrong stuff to keep
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me alive and it's caused lots of pain and a couple of injuries and so you get
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low point but it's just a matter of going and I sat down I actually wrote a post while I was down and I said I'm not
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feeling real good this is what D this is what's going on in my life hey um I feel
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better now so here's what you do you sit down and you write about it and show
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them all the research and science around it so you can get through this stuff right but it takes some time and some
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work and a lot of us if you're in a bad place you get tired it's just you get
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tired you just don't have the energy right the energy is gone energy is sapped um you you fight you fight so
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it's extreme fight or flight right so you fight and you fight and you fight and you fight and you think no I'm not
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going to succumb I'm going to stay I'm going to stay and then it's some point
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these fleeting little well actually there's a flea here there's a little way
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out and it just and then we start to believe it and we believe and when we don't want to share so we insulate now
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that's a self- protection mechanism uh out of fear fear of what others will think fear of of being dismissed fear of
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not taking it seriously all that stuff and we yeah really it is it's it's about
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reaching out I did a um we've got a free video out online at the moment and uh I
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think we call it when there's no one else and so it's for when you're at 3:00
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in the morning 4 in the morning and you think there's no one around just play
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the video and just see that there is someone there um and get in touch tomorrow cuz I'll be there for you at
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some stage you know and and know that you're not alone in that your journey I'd go used to go and get up wake in the
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middle of the night and go and stand out in the middle of the road um s Jamies and just look up and down the street to
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see if there was lights on there's someone else awake they probably weren't
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was probably a security light probably somebody scared as hell in the dark was somebody that fell
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asleep drunk with the light on yeah the TV still going but for me that was enough to know that somebody else was
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there right um and so yeah it's a it's a being a quite a quite a journey I'd say
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um but understanding yourself if you know if I was to plead to anyone out there go and look back in your past and
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and take from not the bad take the good take the what the you don't learn from
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things when you're in it you must go back to the things in your past and learn from those uh number one uh you
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can make amends if if you can't make amends because it's going to hurt someone then you should not make amends
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you should suck it up but you learn and never to do that again and you learn what can I be a better self and if you
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can do that every day yeah that you know if we all had such a great life it was if life was all such full of roses and
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it it would just be life you've got to have the Downs to have the UPS yeah yeah
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yeah yeah it's it's an impossible illusion to be happy all the time right
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you can't be it's impossible so so for you um it was 1999 so s years into your
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policing career that you you um suffered depression for the first time um so you
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would have been actually probably similar journey to me I think you were like early to mid 40s did it was was
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there an incident did it just sort of happen or did it creep up on you well it actually sort of creeps up there's a
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whole lot of things when I go back to it you know I I mismanaged myself um not taking leave so um I like to bank things
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I like to save money I like to save leave so I had uh 7 months leave duw jeus uh wow I was living just in case
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right just in case it rained so that's from my Builder days you know you work
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every single day in case it rains simple as that because I might not get paid today and so I T took my police career
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the same way and it was a whole number of things with the c with the final uh being when my mom died um I was at her
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house the day before and she said um do you want to have a cup of tea and I said
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no I'm busy and she died that next day and I never got to say goodbye well I did but
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you know she wouldn't have known and and that just just tipped tipped me over the
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edge and um I didn't deal with it in fact I was back at work within a day uh
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that's my way of dealing with stuff was just to keep working um wrong you know
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we think we're bulletproof we're not it always happens to somebody else we just
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need to toughen up we that's all bollocks that's all bollock [ __ ] [ __ ] you know it's just rubbish um we
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must grieve we must shout we must cry we must hate the world you have to you have
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to go through that hole and it's not a linear it's not in this circle they talk
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about it's a pile like a birds nest the pile of poo that you've got to go
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through and that's every minute of your life you'll be up and down and all over
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the place but you have to express it you have to get it out of your head because
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to keep it inside nothing good happens in the dark yeah yeah um a previous podcast
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guest I've had on a couple of times who's been through his own mental health
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struggles Um Zack Gord the former yeah um his saying as um which he loves is Secrets make you sick yeah they do yeah
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so was there a moment that you realized you needed help uh yeah there was it came as a rush I was um I was
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photocopy at Oakland Central police station the old building not the one that's just over the road here um four
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stories up and damn it photocopies are made by men aren't they to break down so
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we can make more money to come and fix it and I think I was a detective senior sergeant that point getting paid a huge
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salary to go and photocopy a file and I just kept jamming and I just and I was in a bad place and I looked out the
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window and this voice you must go higher you need to go higher something like that you need to go
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higher and I just and I could feel the BL just the blood just drained because I'd just become a crisis negotiator and
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was knew what ideation was and I went [ __ ] I'm having a thought of suicide I
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want to be here so straight down the stairs and I I I reached out to our welfare who who are very very good but
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you know of course they're busy um and so I just went and talked to a um to a
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padre who every Friday at or police this P used to come through and he'd spend
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time with every person on all seven floors just chatting what's Padre Padre like a a minister okay a church Minister
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yeah they call him padr in the in the military and and the police and so I went and had a chat to him about it and
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he said well come on and we had you know prayed and things he said but you are going to need to get some pretty good
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solid help mate um it's been good you've come to me let's get your yourself fixed
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up and I did and uh I'd like to say it was a wonderful Journey it's a it's hard
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work but there's one thing I discover You Must Believe In Yourself there's one thing that that
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keeps you going and that is you your true self this [ __ ] voice is not you it's not who you are it's a part of what
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designed you across your life your true self is here hence the the badge right the heart will always overcome the brain
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you've just got a what do you love it's called your hook so that's one thing I
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always worked with when we dealing with people who are um suicidal um what's keep you going and
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that's your hook and you just keep focusing on that and you push through that because if you don't it it will
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happen so so quickly and you just have no control over it yeah [ __ ] I had a similar sort of experience probably
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about the same age as you early to mid 40s I guess and um you know you start to like weighing up the
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pros and cons and um there were times where where the only reason for staying I could think of is this little dog on
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the ground I thought like humans that I know and that I know love me it's like
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I'll be doing them a favor and they'll be understand he wouldn't then I had a
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friend that um took his own life in a very a very violent way and um I saw a lot of myself and and him and the type
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of person he was and I thought sh if he could reach this point where this seems like the best option to make in that
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moment so could I and that's what um that was the Catalyst for me to get professional help yeah that was actually
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I I was scared of therapy and I don't know why I put it off for so long but it
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was one of the best things I've ever done like I thought I was when you're
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having these thoughts like especially like your niece at 17 seems like it's the sort of danger age right it is it's
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the biggest growth period in the brain is in the teenage years yeah so there our brain grows bigger than when we were
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first born so when you're a grown ass man like us you think you're out of the
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danger zone and then no no it's like it's like anything right it's life will
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come and hit you uh it is it is a yeah um I'll never go there again and neither
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will you I'll tell you that right now um and you do have to go back there though
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to that dark place uh and to to learn from it so what I talk about these days so um we've got to change the narrative
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on what we talk about so I I I You' got this debrief I run people through and I
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talk them about you must talk about something within six hours right so when something happens to you with you've got
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six-hour window to talk with somebody about it because otherwise the memory starts to set in your in your brain in
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your HPP campus well it starts your short term then overnight goes into your long term and so you got 6 hours to talk
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about what happened how you felt now our memory is held by two things it's held
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by repetition or the emotion at the time so our longest strongest memories are because we're in our most emotional
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state at the time negative so whenever the amydala Sparks up and the brain is designed to
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look for danger to avoid it that's what it's designed to do right so we we look
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for risk and then go no I'm not now we got to learn to go back there so that's
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how you felt if you talk about how you felt about something you get the emotion out which reduces the mark in your
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memory and so you're not going to be impacted by it the next stage of that is
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going to a form more formal one what happened second time what did you do well what would you do differently next
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time that's how you learn the third part is a psychological debrief EAP um so I
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in a a workshop I say right hands up who's had physio all proud right I say you've all had
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therapy I want I want to film it one day cuz they go what are you talking about um well well it's called physiotherapy
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what do they do they find the part that hurts and they push on it why because they love
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you they love hurting you no it's designed to get things moving to get the energy out what do these people do they
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push on the part that hurts so you're actually going for brain physio so if we could change the
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narrative on that to say you're going for brain physio how imagine how helpful
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imagine imagine how many people would be lined up at the door I'm going for brain
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physio oh yeah yeah my big regret is not doing it sooner like straight away this
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woman put my mind at e you know she said oh have you had suicidal thoughts and she said it real not not chalantly and
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i' never I hadn't I hadn't told anyone at that point and I took a deep breath
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and I said yes and she just s of shrugged her shoulders and she goes oh it's not that big a deal it's nor she
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said that's a that's a long way away from planning it and even she even planning it it's a long way away from
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executing it um and it made me feel um like a huge weight had been noral right yeah yeah so when I got a diagnosis of
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accumulated stress disorder I was like oh there must be other people like that awesome it's no surprise to me that you
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became sick like the things that you saw and did it's crazy and we'll get to that
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um yeah but what advice would you have for anyone who's having suicidal thoughts or struggling with poor mental
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health like right now right now I'm is to get hold of somebody now A stranger
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is better mhm so I recommend the 1737 or Lifeline a stranger is better and the reason why I say that is uh they won't
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judge you uh they will never be there for you in the future whereas your friends may be there for
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you in the future or it might push them away reach out to someone you don't know
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reach out to me reach out to you uh and just talk it's hardest thing you'll ever
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do but yet when you start now the reason we fear that is we fear opening up too much uh we Fe we won't be able to turn
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the tap off lots of other reasons why we don't want to do it but I'll tell you in
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that first and you tell me first disclosure that you go and you talk about this stuff don't you come out of
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there feeling amazing so much lighter it's just lighter yeah it's I was dizzy
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yeah I was dizzy it was surreal it was like I was in a movie I went out and went this is
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life it's so normal isn't normal great you know and for the first time I went
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back after that first about a month later I went back and said for the first time and I don't know how long I've now
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realized I've got an ankle injury and it hurts there not here or here and it's a
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real injury and that's good I'm happy with that yeah so you've just got to
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you've just got to you know so reach out to somebody talk you don't have to do
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talk they've got online so7 37's got online but yeah just just take that
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first step and you watch you'll never look back but then you and I have an obligation now don't we to help others
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to tell our story so we must yeah absolutely I I love to it's become like a Cornerstone of this um this podcast
00:25:22
like talking about mental health and um I feel bad when like people send me DMS and praise me for it because I feel like
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no you know it was Brave of say s John Kuan and Mike King to like when when Kuan came out no one was talking about
00:25:37
this [ __ ] that was a courageous move I feel like um he's paved the way for the
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rest of us yeah look I I and again I don't want to disrespect they they all had what majoring careers
00:25:49
but as people like me that had no career that have done nothing that step up to the plate and go this is happening for
00:25:55
me too because people will always make make an excuse oh but yeah they could do it because they had that and they
00:26:02
they're a named person and they are a celebrity and they are so therefore that's why they did it and that's why
00:26:08
they've got all this help around them whereas in re reality that's not the
00:26:12
case they are people yeah right and that's the case but having more people um like Zach you know coming out and
00:26:18
saying this is this is what and then offering some help some practical techniques is what we can all do as well
00:26:25
as share our story is is how did we get better and so if we can do that part of it cuz I think that's the part that's
00:26:31
missing today is so what did you do to get yourself well yeah thanks for that hey um we'll
00:26:38
get into the the um incredible stories of your police career but first of all I mentioned on Instagram that Instagram
00:26:43
that you were coming and I've got some um questions here from um my followers
00:26:47
on Instagram um Lance has seen and experienced some horrible things how does he block that
00:26:52
stuff out I just don't remember it I just purposely block it out yeah it does
00:26:57
come back back every so often uh there's a book being written by judon breu I like to promote others as well so
00:27:05
Judson Brewer wrote a book called unwinding anxiety and uh I read it and it just
00:27:10
resonated when you push away from on things your brain holds onto it so don't
00:27:15
push it away sit with it and what you do is you sit with it and you start to panic and go into a whole horrible place
00:27:21
and then what I did was I just slowed my breathing down and then it went away and
00:27:26
the more you do that the less it will return but um I I still I there's some
00:27:33
parts that I still get um and I still talk about this one part where you can never get over uh uh and that is take
00:27:41
going into somebody's home and taking their baby who's died overnight taking
00:27:45
that to the Mory you never you never get past that it took me I think four or five attempts to write that small part
00:27:56
and then I had to go through another three or four times um again and every time I'd just break down in tears and
00:28:03
couldn't get through it and I still can't get through it I I've never read
00:28:05
my book because I don't want to don't want to relive and Trigger that that
00:28:10
whole emotional experience you know and when I I looked at the mom and she's
00:28:14
just she's why and I just looked and said I don't know all I could think of I'm going to
00:28:22
leave you uh but I'm going to give you a finite moment so I'll come back in 15
00:28:27
minutes and then I managed to convince the um which you're not allowed to do um and I
00:28:34
don't care as I asked the driver of the of the Mory vehicle to could mom sit in
00:28:41
the front seat with you and be with her baby to the Mory and he said yeah first time ever it's ever happened and I just
00:28:48
followed me because there's a whole lot of stuff around you know the coronal
00:28:52
stuff it has to be security all bollocks to that how how old was the baby oh just
00:28:58
very very would have been under 6 months yeah was it just like sudden yeah sudden
00:29:02
infant death yeah s and um yeah you talk about that length in your book and uh it's until it's um the cause of death
00:29:10
death is established it needs to be treated with a certain amount of Suspicion so you got to ask a bunch of
00:29:15
questions like you know was there a heater near the baby is there a smoker in the house is anyone on drugs um and
00:29:21
you sort of rewrote yeah they're still using it apparently um which I I found out
00:29:27
somebody read my book recently who actually works in the mort and said uh we still use your form and your process
00:29:32
so it's about um it's a hell of a legacy yeah it's become a real so P 47a that's
00:29:39
uh that's my legacy in the police do that just come come from a place of compassion yeah yeah well it had to be
00:29:44
there had to be a better way of dealing with that I mean how can you go into somebody's home and say oh I noticed you
00:29:51
smoke um you know how how many cigarettes a day because this is what the the the um people people who um
00:29:58
goodness me I forgotten their names now not the morticians is a name for them but the Pathologists the
00:30:05
morticians and they they they do all this work and they want to know these things to as to what to look for great
00:30:11
but let's not bloody punish parents who've lost a child have a look is there
00:30:15
an ashtray on the table right yes somebody smokes in the house is there a heater take a photo of the room for
00:30:21
goodness sake of course there's a heer have a look around use your eyes you write it down don't ask them and don't
00:30:27
sit there and punish them by making them you know they the baby's still there and
00:30:31
you're asking the parents these bloody questions they had to had to change and
00:30:35
so by using your eyes and your ears you're all police officers you're trained at doing a form of Investigation
00:30:42
so do a form of Investigation if if a detect you feel that something needs to be changed a sergeant always turns up
00:30:48
they've got a lot more experience in this they'll have a look around and go I
00:30:51
think we'll get a detective out here just in case right that's what happens
00:30:55
in all in suicides all SU Ides it happens in Road crashes why doesn't it happen with a with a baby death why are
00:31:02
we punishing the parents and so just worked with the then deputy coroner on on a process of how do we how can we
00:31:09
make this better so it took a bit of time to get there so we had to we had to consult with all of the um all of the
00:31:14
police stations across the country that had uh these these um inquest officers and and developed this technique and
00:31:21
it's still been used today so very proud of that yeah so when you're in the place and an adult
00:31:31
dies obviously you can't carry an adult body out you need to put on a gurny what
00:31:34
do you do with a with a baby carry them out yeah they get carried out um it's
00:31:40
it's it's um yeah it's horrible but but but it's done in a in a in a in a nice
00:31:45
way in a sympathetic way but yeah there's no there's no option right so then you you go home from you go home
00:31:51
from work and then what you get drunk you get drunk you pissed off your head I was
00:31:56
thinking yeah get drunk maybe go for a run or have have a shower but it's like
00:32:01
none of it none of it's going to get rid of anything well so yeah and it depends
00:32:04
on the time of day as well you know all night but uh this was this was the ear I
00:32:09
remember it was an early shift and um I still had the shift to go and you know there's a whole lot of other things will
00:32:14
happen across that shift um but yeah that night you go home and you just you just hug your family harder than you
00:32:21
would normal normally right well that's something I didn't think about that's
00:32:25
something I I didn't did not think about you know you think that's going to be
00:32:28
the end of the shift and you know Lance this has been traumatic you go home now knock off
00:32:33
early no it's not like that man I've got such mad respect for the police job they
00:32:38
do I remember one one night one shift um I was it was an inspector then and so um I had all the guns in those
00:32:47
days you had all the guns in the boot of the car and you turn up with all the serious incidents and I went to this
00:32:53
terrible terrible job where a a young man had fallen off his Bel balcony of some floors up um and what his
00:33:00
grandmother had had washed the tiled floor and he was leaning on the hand rail and his feet went out and over he
00:33:08
went and um they were an Asian family and every time uh another family would turn up they'd go into this big meltdown
00:33:15
on crisis and blame each other and blame us and hit and you know uh it was horrible but then I got a call uh once
00:33:21
we got that sort of s I got a call oh there's somebody on the train tracks um
00:33:24
wanting to commit suicide um and you can you go there so I'm heading there and
00:33:30
next thinging a call comes in from ambulance saying uh ambulance are waiting outside this address this
00:33:36
mention of a knife they don't want to go in so I went uh you stand by and I'm
00:33:42
thinking [ __ ] which one um and then a good friend of mine who was at Christ negoti said I'll do that one I'll go to
00:33:51
that one to the train track one um because he's qualified crisis into noo shatter thanks mate and I went to the
00:33:57
one and so we got Ked up and I I got a carried a gun a firearm and we had two dog L we took one dog and and uh we went
00:34:06
through the door and there was just blood everywhere and this guy was lying on the bed with a he had his hand
00:34:11
bandaged up and in the suitcase beside him was this person head chopped up and uh and I looked and I
00:34:20
went and I don't remember seeing it my brain switched off so then we got all
00:34:26
that sorted out and um media want an interview so I've been to somebody falling off that heading to another job
00:34:35
go to this job taking the guy down by at night at gunpoint got all that sorted out right hi yeah no we've just found it
00:34:43
we just discovered a body in the house up there yeah yeah yeah that great and then you go back and do your paperwork
00:34:48
CU you got to do your paperwork so 2: in the morning I go home there was one shift uh drunk that night
00:34:57
I can see a pattern and I and I'm not no judgment I tell you what it works well
00:35:03
it probably doesn't right but but it doesn't until it doesn't it doesn't it
00:35:07
doesn't and so there's a series of these things that lead up to my demise so you
00:35:13
can see how all of these things when you don't deal with it and um I remember um
00:35:19
cops of slow learners but I remember having a uh we did a horrible homicide there was a a group and the detective
00:35:26
inspector then said um how about we uh I said I went to him I said Dom why don't
00:35:32
we go for a a bit of a debrief and you know get a a psychologist and or something we'll just do a team debrief
00:35:37
to help people he goes yeah well we could go and get pissed I went so what do you think he
00:35:44
said let's go and get pissed I okay cuz that's how it was dealt with in those
00:35:48
days yeah um and that's all we knew now it's a lot well it's mandatory now yeah
00:35:53
and so they've made it mandatory so you have to go so that's that's actually the
00:35:57
leverage that says to people I don't want to go but I have to it's mandatory well you don't have to
00:36:04
actually cuz you no one can make you but but but just by saying it's mandatory it
00:36:09
makes it so much easier for people to go yeah and suddenly everyone else is doing
00:36:11
it so there's not going to be everyone yeah yeah no no [ __ ] here yeah know
00:36:16
we all have to go oh those bloody police they don't look after us they're making
00:36:20
us go and really inside you're thinking thank goodness somebody's taking control
00:36:24
because I'm I'm 51 and the the only time I've seen dead body in my life is
00:36:28
probably um my Nana's made up body in a coffin open casket near lounge and you
00:36:32
guys are seeing you guys you guys are seeing yeah blood murder scenes car accidents just Grim stuff that that big
00:36:39
advertising campaign a while ago the get bit of work stories it was It was kind of mischievous in a way wasn't it no one
00:36:47
no one can set you up for for what you're going to see no one can and I'd
00:36:51
never seen a body before I went to police college and they they actually take you to Mory and you get to View and
00:36:58
view how they dress a body and um it's not until you yeah you get into the actual job and you see it in reality but
00:37:04
that's still that's still a sort of clinical environment right but when you
00:37:08
actually get to see it in real life in reality it's just it's heartbreaking and
00:37:13
you realize how fragile life is you know I so for a while I was the inquest sergeant and um we turn up on a Monday
00:37:21
morning and at Oakland morer and there would be 8 or 10 or 12 over the week just from over over the weekend of
00:37:29
people that are required to undergo for whatever reason um a a postmortem examination and they just lined
00:37:36
up um all with their opened up and all sitting ready to go for for the um pathologist to come in yeah and you are
00:37:44
the faces covered or no you Tred not to look at the faces I never looked at the face no the bodies intrigued me um the
00:37:52
mechanics of the bodies are fascinating how does it work what do you mean oh just just you know as you know when you
00:37:57
see plastic models of that's pulled apart that's what we look like that looks like that when they're dead
00:38:04
because there's no blood flowing so they're just yeah just um and they're
00:38:08
quite it's quite fascinating quite the makeup of of us is is incredible I find
00:38:13
it fascinating but just don't look at the face cuz if you look at the face there's a person that's somebody's son
00:38:19
and someone's dad and someone's yeah Someone's Child yeah yeah that breaks
00:38:24
you up yeah okay well I was get to Instagram question but since we're on the police stuff we might as well sit
00:38:30
here for a while and we'll get back to those later um by the time you you left
00:38:34
were you like a more or less compassionate person or more or less cynical like did you have an ability to
00:38:39
see the best in people or no absolutely cynical um everyone lies um and you never see the best in life you you you
00:38:48
those times that you're with your colleagues when you can let your head down and relax and not not have all
00:38:54
these personas at the time that should be encouraged more perhaps not with it like we used to do with the alcohol and
00:39:00
that's that's frowned upon now but we certainly need to have those times where
00:39:03
we're together as a team um and to talk about it and and dark humor is a is a is
00:39:09
a wonderful way of overcoming stuff laughing about it uh because it it just would it's a hellish job you know when
00:39:17
you when I think back I was asked by a a colleague when I was writing that first
00:39:22
book he said can you put something you know some of the good stories in there I said I can't remember any
00:39:28
I I was serious about I can't remember any time I can remember is we got called
00:39:32
out um somebody put their porridge into the uh on a night shift put the porridge
00:39:36
into the microwave turned it on and and hadn't realized how high they turned it
00:39:40
on and we got called out to a job come back and this it had blown the door off the microwave and there was porridge
00:39:45
splattered all around the the mill room that was funny cuz he had to clean it up well I
00:39:53
was going to yeah than that I can't remember much yeah maybe this is a redundant question then I was going to
00:39:58
ask you best and worst days on the job worse hard to imagine something more traumatic than the death of a baby my
00:40:05
yeah so that would be my worst day well yeah that would that was the worst day was the baby right so you give me
00:40:13
finding you know going to help a family who've lost their loved one an adult
00:40:18
orbe it or you know that one day of you know going to pull somebody out at gunpoint give me that day any day um
00:40:25
that whole heart string the whole connection with people um really does and you know if you've got kids you're
00:40:31
all thinking about them the whole time and so uh yeah I best days in the police um I know there were many but I just
00:40:40
can't remember them because they're overwhelmed with the negative stuff right and that's when you understand the
00:40:45
brain the brain has a negativity bias it's looking for danger to avoid it all
00:40:49
the time and so um I've had to go back there a number of times whether it's
00:40:55
writing the book or in the work I do now I often use my examples so my time of depression we've got this uh tool we've
00:41:01
developed now called the strength exercise of how to work through something and realize how far you've
00:41:07
actually come because you don't realize that and so I still get triggered by
00:41:11
some thoughts there but best day in the police I mean I it certainly wasn't the
00:41:17
day I left um I regretted that you know I didn't want to go but I needed to go
00:41:23
because it was my time um but yeah I just you there would be good days but they are I guess few and far between
00:41:33
because you're continually working at a high Pace see having read your read your book
00:41:40
I I would have thought the answer for bestand the job May something like um you know talking a 14year old boy down
00:41:45
from mway over pass or talking talking a girl down who was about to jump off the
00:41:50
Harbor Bridge or you know saving a kid uh through a phone conversation that was about to hang himself in a tree in a
00:41:55
park yeah they is they're just taking the boxes they a SC they leave a scar yeah um because of where I've been um I
00:42:06
would love to have not have done that but you you you were literally responsible for saving lives so that's
00:42:12
well it is I I remember I remember on one job that we had this guy chased me up a a driveway with a knife so
00:42:21
um M just came back to you that's when you when you sparked that one yeah CU
00:42:26
that was one he didn't even you didn't even mention but don't know if that was in the book I
00:42:32
no I think it might be um because it was it was I remember it being hilarious because both he and I were being chased
00:42:38
by a police dog the driveway so it was a long story short the guy was in the house um um spoiled sort of brat really
00:42:47
he was um when so when I turned up we had a a fresh new crisis negotiator who happened to be yelling back at the
00:42:55
person and I went can't be good sh we don't yell we're negotiators so managed to convince that
00:43:03
there was a whole whole new Dy um so I I said you come to the front door and you
00:43:08
you can sit get a chair sit down I'll sit down here in a chair quite some distance away probably I don't know 3 4
00:43:16
met away you don't come outside there and I don't come in and we talk and he I
00:43:20
said you can keep the knife okay so I said but one one re one one little warning there is a dog there's a police
00:43:28
dog here uh and if you come out I'm going to run away and the dog will get you just just letting you know okay and
00:43:37
so and it got was going quite well and then for some reason he just went off [ __ ] it and he just threw the chair back
00:43:44
and he came running at me with a knife and I just [ __ ] myself and I took off and because I'm reasonably fit I ran
00:43:52
and I'd love to have seen somebody film it because it was me in the front him
00:43:57
chasing me with a knife and I could hear these dogs they don't make a noise when they're running
00:44:04
but like you can hear the the whole way back and I thought and all I heard was Rous and I thought he's that dog handle
00:44:14
is not still hanging onto the Rope now in the back of my mind I know that police dogs can't tell a good
00:44:21
person from a bad person they go for the person with the biggest sweat and and ner and the smell of fear that would
00:44:29
have been me your honor and I went [ __ ] and so I looked and there was a fence a wooden fence and
00:44:40
look D it must have been I don't know about that high above my head I jumped I
00:44:45
know I know I did it like the PCT you go over the big fence and I just grabbed it
00:44:49
reached over the top and pulled myself over and then all I he I went that was close hell yeah so um
00:44:57
so I got out I got back over the fence and I walked up the end of the driveway and uh he's sitting down he's got this
00:45:04
big bandage on his leg and I just said see carried on and drove off into the sunset never said a word to him see um
00:45:14
and yeah I mean I I I shouldn't look back on fondness with that but but it was just that whole Keystone Cops
00:45:22
laughter of I was just thinking that must have looked so funny even from the dog in the dog been handle was probably
00:45:27
wet himself thinking holy hell [ __ ] that guy can run I'm not taking him on on a
00:45:33
in a race how um yeah I mean you're still married you've only been married
00:45:39
once how did you like only once yeah how did how did you keep your marriage together through this career cuz it's
00:45:44
like um you had so many roles with so much responsibility so much time away from home so much pressure my wife's
00:45:51
special she's a special person um she had the ability to um ignore me when I
00:45:57
need to be ignored um um she didn't really know I was having going through depression she knew I was in a really
00:46:04
bad place and going through some bad stuff but didn't know what and so you know that whole inquisitive stuff that
00:46:10
goes on um and and in hindsight I probably could have but how can you how can you go home and tell your parents
00:46:16
your parents your wife your partner and even your kids are likely to hear about what you do during the day and the
00:46:24
reason I say parents is that that some people in the police do have you know parents they live with their parents to
00:46:29
how can you go home and tell them about that and for them to understand because all they'll probably say is oh you know
00:46:36
you you'll get over this this is just a glitch you know you know but look at
00:46:39
what good you're doing that's all you know we that's that's it's well- meaning
00:46:45
but it's the wrong thing to say it's so tell me what that was like is what you should say so what was that
00:46:52
like at the time how scared were you I could not do that that's what you should
00:46:57
say to somebody what was it like for you because I don't know I know what it was
00:47:02
like for me but it'll be different for each of us so if you could just say to
00:47:05
somebody so what was that like how did you feel what was going through your head holy [ __ ] is there something I can
00:47:12
get for you what do you need right now nothing just let's just sit here then that's what we need but but people
00:47:21
well meaning don't don't don't understand that they think you want help
00:47:26
we're wired to help people don't help people help people helps by putting it
00:47:30
back on them giving them some IDE some some so just like you did then you said some three of these things about you
00:47:39
know saving this person's life I would have liked to have said that but they
00:47:42
still leave a mark they still leave a scar what if the worst happened was it a skill or was it luck
00:47:50
that got me through that but that triggered something else about that person who was in the house not wanting
00:47:56
to but wanting to hurt other people and that triggered that little thing so you did exactly what you're supposed to do
00:48:02
right but you probably didn't realize it m but no doubt because you've been
00:48:06
through uh something yourself yeah I I'd say from um you might might because you
00:48:11
look for like what good can come out of these things cuz um you're going through like
00:48:15
mental health issues and depression it's [ __ ] horrible yeah like you just you
00:48:19
life just seems black and white things just seem dull but if if I look for the the silver lining of it the good that
00:48:24
came out of it it probably made me more compassionate person yeah if someone snaps at me or is angry like I I I
00:48:31
immediately now think oh I wonder what they've got going on yeah there was irrational reaction on their
00:48:36
part hting people hurting people hurt people without realizing it yeah so I probably needed to be a bit more
00:48:42
compassionate I think that's what depression gave me what about you yeah same same um I realize now that I'm U
00:48:48
more empathic so more understanding of others uh more caring of others uh still got that little bit of um selfishness
00:48:57
not selfishness I guess look at me self-centeredness when you know when you're up on stage doing a keynote uh
00:49:03
it's a euphoric feeling when you know that people are listening to every word
00:49:07
when the whole room goes quiet I used to think that I wasn't doing a great job
00:49:12
but when the whole room and and you walk across the stage and their eyes are like
00:49:15
this following you it's it's a euphoric feeling it's like wow they actually
00:49:21
listening to what I have to say and and you know because we all have a a strong and a critic but also have an impostor
00:49:27
and us all of us are on different parts and you know I've got a bit of both and
00:49:31
the imposters thinking you know you're not really qualified to do this job still even though I've got a masters and
00:49:38
two diplomas doing a third one to three books you know you're still not qualified enough are you no I'm not uh
00:49:44
and so um yeah it is it is kind of like that so uh I I guess I've I've I
00:49:51
realized that I always was I used to think it was a sympathetic person and and and my son has the same trait I
00:49:58
remember him coming home from school once saying he was crying I said what's
00:50:02
wrong mate he said oh there was a cat outside a house meowing and I didn't know where it lived and I thought it
00:50:07
must have been lost I mean that's a beautiful thing for a young man to say right young boy to say and so I knew he
00:50:14
had that same that's the sort of feeling that I have and so people like us are
00:50:19
susceptible to depression because we take on other people's emotions and that's what we have to be
00:50:26
careful of yeah so the the keynote stuff you do now um yeah I'm sure it gives you a bit of a
00:50:32
rush bit of an adrenaline kick but does um does does anything match up to you know the adrenaline kick from your past
00:50:39
life you know what I mean like the the rush of saving someone's life and oh yeah I think it does I really do I I
00:50:49
I'd love the feeling of taking uh somebody to the ambulance right from that have just saved off the bridge take
00:50:56
got off the bridge it's a great feeling um but then I always thought well youve
00:51:03
you've managed to escape with another one another safe one you know without really feeling that um and so um yeah
00:51:12
for me it's I I get a wonderful Rush when I when I have these this amazing feedback come through afterwards I heard
00:51:19
you talking the other night and and I remember in in vagle I did a keynote in in vagle and this um in those days I
00:51:26
used to do a a quite a a funny sort of um presentation now where it's more informative lots of humor in there um
00:51:35
but this was mainly humor and he he wrote to me the next day and said I was in a bad place when I came to
00:51:42
see you I've been unwell I've been I was suicidal the night before you've never
00:51:46
made me laugh so hard in my life thank you for saving my life just like that and that's what
00:51:52
keeps me going where are the laughs where are the laughs in you Keynote well it's lots of lots of funny things
00:51:58
that you that we think that we're the only ones but in those days I used to talk about how we poo so you can
00:52:05
tell you can tell um when you are not in a good place uh you've got too much um
00:52:12
cortisol build up is when you wake up in the morning you have the shits so it's adrenaline and cortisol
00:52:17
it's the cortisol that comes out so two ways cortisol comes out of your system
00:52:20
one is exercise and the other one is it comes out naturally as shits and so I'd
00:52:24
talk about why is there always always corn in our [ __ ] I don't even I don't
00:52:30
even eat corn but there's always corn in it what is that why do peanuts come out
00:52:35
whole I I I I know I know I I know you look don't you you all look and it's
00:52:42
through the and theyd end up laughing but that was because I was going into those in those days doing a lot of real
00:52:48
serious stuff around um suicide so suicide intervention but certainly postvention because postvention is what
00:52:56
we don't do enough of we can do a lot of prevention fantastic we can do a lot of
00:53:03
intervention okay but what about after you failed to kill yourself now what no one does that so I go there and
00:53:12
I talk about how to restart your life and in fact the work I do these days is mainly based on that but just presented
00:53:19
in a different way of how to get through life's crap at the moment with what
00:53:23
we've been going through since since 2020 well how how does that look for people that have a failed attempt oh
00:53:29
well they failed they can't even they failed at life and then they can't even
00:53:33
kill themselves it's a double failure but do you have like um a euphoric moment where it's like I survived you
00:53:38
know oh my God I survived I'm lucky to be here it wasn't meant to be not at the
00:53:42
time no um well did you have that I never attempted I never think so I never I never attempted but had ideations but
00:53:50
was there ever a moment where you thought gee I'm glad that um I didn't get any worse yes yeah yeah so I haven't
00:53:57
had that but that might be because I just move on I just kind of keep moving forward um I I've I'm absolutely pleased
00:54:08
that I'm still here yes you know it wasn't a moment where I went oh thank
00:54:13
goodness for that no I don't I don't remember an actual Awakening of a wow I'm so pleased
00:54:21
um but I think that's my makeup yeah I think that's my brain the way it is
00:54:27
life has been one continuous challenge for me for for a number of reasons um and you know it starts with the parents
00:54:34
and then it moves on from there so both parents military well you can imagine the sort of discipline that we had at
00:54:40
around home and some of the struggles that so that sort of sets you up with first thousand days and all that sort of
00:54:46
thing um not that I didn't have a bad childhood don't ever get me wrong there
00:54:50
but it was quite disciplined sound it was very very St like by today's by today's um
00:54:57
yeah yeah hugely strict no no we not abusive just just really strict you know if you put one foot out of line there
00:55:03
was a whack coming or was a web belt coming there was something you know there was there was a a repercussion for
00:55:08
that that's what I mean by that uh and we know that that's completely the wrong
00:55:13
way to do things right it hardened you it made you worse yeah well there's a
00:55:16
story in your book where you you steal some money from school and you get sent home and you Dad gives you a whack on
00:55:21
the face and then you have to go back to school with a bruised face to apologize
00:55:24
and yeah you think about what would happen now like the school would handle it differently
00:55:29
the police would be involved and your dad would be in the most trouble out of anyone yeah that's true that's true yeah
00:55:34
it doesn't happen like that and and uh did that work well you know people say
00:55:39
Well it worked look at you now no it didn't work it made me worse and I'll
00:55:43
tell you it made me worse yeah so um am I a better person for the the the thing that made me a better person without a
00:55:51
doubt is going through that that whole trouble of that depression and that whole trauma uh because I had to have a
00:55:58
deep look at myself and really focus on who do you want to be who do you want do
00:56:05
you want to be that person or you want to be somebody different someone new and so that's how I worked on it yeah and
00:56:11
ongoing yeah oh I think that's an exciting thing though way like I'm I'm
00:56:15
I'm 51 now when I was like 20 or 30 I would have thought you know someone that's 51 has it all 51 I can tell you
00:56:22
look 66 thank you the flattery Society do I mean this is Fitness right yeah completely Fitness for you and I we're
00:56:30
both fit people yeah I I got friends my age and they're like oh it's an old age
00:56:35
thing you know because they've got the sword joints whatever I'm like no that's
00:56:38
negligence like you need to yeah well I got asked um recently um do you get sore
00:56:44
aches and pains you know because you're so fit I said yeah you get aches and
00:56:47
pains every day because I'm fit because that's how I stay fit it causes aches
00:56:51
and pains so you're going to have aches and pains either way it's better to have
00:56:54
aches and pains that you go oo GE I pulled that oh that's that feels good today rather than a I can't move yeah
00:57:02
it's like choosing your hard a like hard Choice Easy Life Easy Choice hard life
00:57:07
hey so um so some of your jobs in the police so um you were in the um police negotiations team um one week training
00:57:15
for that uh no well it was a continuous seven days yeah s days so we changed it to 10 so I changed it to two weeks yeah
00:57:24
that doesn't seem like a lot of you learn I know and it was lots of videos it was weird i' forgotten about that too
00:57:32
cuz I've never read my book so you get um yeah that's right it was so police
00:57:37
negotiations um in a in a nutshell uh you you're dealing with the sad The Bad
00:57:42
and The Mad so sad depressed people y mad people who are they're schizophrenic
00:57:48
or they're yeah yeah yep yep going through psychosis and bad so criminals yeah okay yeah right like the like the
00:57:56
hostage situations or the yeah mull or barricaded criminals yeah okay and you you spent 13 years on that role as a
00:58:03
negotiator and amongst doing other roles in the police what makes a good negotiator someone who can
00:58:08
listen and someone who can talk naturally um when we go Tri ended up running the courses and uh we have to
00:58:16
beat the cop out of the cop when they become a noo shatter don't do the question answer question answer it's
00:58:22
what do you mean it's so tell me what's happened you've got to now now become
00:58:26
the listener not the talker as a cop you learn to talk you learn to steare you learn to guide you learn to get as much
00:58:33
information as possible in the shortest possible time and move on reverse it and
00:58:38
that's so hard to do uh but it's how do you get the best how do you get someone
00:58:43
to talk and so that's the skills and there's an acronym called more pies and
00:58:47
it's a like it's a way of naturally going through a natural rhythm of how to
00:58:52
get somebody to talk um you know and to get and to get the information out two ears one mouth yeah it's a real skill to
00:59:00
do yeah yeah but intent listening is one thing but then you have to say the right
00:59:04
things don't you you you do and that's the problem so the one thing you have to keep and this
00:59:11
is the hardest thing to teach people is what are you trying to achieve because when we show the techniques often times
00:59:19
they're just trying to tickle the boxes I've asked open questions I've had some
00:59:23
minimal encourages I've done one reflecting it's no what's the point of
00:59:28
this and so whenever we we uh we whenever I was in charge of the negotiations at the time it was always
00:59:34
so what's the aim here get everybody out safe okay good that's that's a
00:59:39
barricaded criminal what about a somebody to get them off the bridge and that's your aim so how can you do that
00:59:44
and by breaking it down into small little chunks so how can I get that person just to put one leg or even just
00:59:50
to get them to turn around and look at me rather than look down at the ground how can I get them just to to put one
00:59:56
arm over how can I get them to put one leg over and often times I'd say look if you
01:00:02
come back over just sit there and I'll come and sit beside you how's that and
01:00:07
that would be the way that I'd get somebody rather than say come on jump in the car whereas I I recall a senior
01:00:13
Sergeant who he was renowned for this he was just the the worst guy you could ever send to a suicide
01:00:21
intervention a Harbor Bridge um so we're waiting for the the day I'm on my way
01:00:26
there and um I I get to the the cordon and I said say where is he said is is it the Central police station now the
01:00:33
senior Sergeant picked him up I said what he said oh he said come on get in the car let's go and have a coffee the
01:00:40
guy did come over the bridge jump in the car they went a cup of coffee he W even
01:00:44
train for it because you just don't know right so so sometimes you can have the
01:00:48
best negotiators and other times that you can just have somebody that just knows people this this might be hard for
01:00:54
you to answer but um what made you so good I don't know that I was that good I
01:01:01
think I was probably methodical which helped me but being having having been in that position and
01:01:08
being able to think to people uh and I a couple of times I've said it I've been
01:01:13
where you are and it's not nice is it what's it like for you and that just you see them they look
01:01:21
up and they look into your eyes they can tell you can look into people's eyes and
01:01:24
you can tell right you know they've been there and so that's that helped a hell of a lot and
01:01:31
look at me now Look at me now there was one negotiation I did with with a guy who
01:01:36
was um holding a knife to his stomach and he had the the knife handle on the steering wheel and he was pulling it so
01:01:43
it would going to a stomach and he was about to be arrested and the worst thing was the cops that were about to arrest
01:01:48
him uh to detectives I was standing behind me and I'm like can you go just off
01:01:57
um might been a job here and and cuz it I remember it was with the sun it was summertime and I I haven't day it was
01:02:04
yeah during the day uh that turned up to arrest him and he jumped in his car and
01:02:08
driven off and driven to this place um in Browns Bay at a car park at the tennis club and um so they turned up
01:02:14
there and they had them cornered but obviously they had the Firearms they didn't want to go on cuz he said I've
01:02:19
got a knife here and I've got a knif you come close I'm going to kill myself so I
01:02:23
first thing that happened I went up to him and I said um he said I don't you
01:02:26
come any close closer because I'll I'll kill myself mate you got a knife I'm
01:02:31
coming anywhere near you and his face was like he's like really I'm not going to get I'm going
01:02:39
home tonight don't about you this was going under my head you know I'm eting
01:02:42
home tonight I'm not a hero um and but how do you convince somebody who's being
01:02:47
arrested for sexually abusing his kids who were his hook that kept him alive and so you have have to really think on
01:02:56
your feet and uh I remember saying to him well you are going to go to jail there's
01:03:05
no way around this you love your kids um you want to be there for your kids you want to make
01:03:12
amends yes yes yeah yeah yeah right so the only way to do that is to go to jail and get help and you will get help for
01:03:17
it and that's what you have to do that's the way you can make up to them and it
01:03:22
just was and he went really but he couldn't get out of the car because of the
01:03:27
media uh they wanted to get a photo of them and you know and cameras they TV had TV cameras it was a c contingent so
01:03:34
I said look how about this you get out the car we'll sit beside your car facing
01:03:38
that way so they can't see you and we'll just sit and talk goes yeah yeah okay
01:03:43
and he sat down and then he says no I'm all good I don't want to sit here
01:03:47
anymore so I just called the detectives over and they arrested them and took him
01:03:51
away so you really do have to think on your feet pretty quickly um if this happens you know if I say this
01:03:57
what what will it do there's no right or wrong but it's just being personable
01:04:01
just being genuine just being you yeah that's the biggest thing I can say yeah
01:04:05
because one of the one of the um pillars is you're not allowed to lie right so
01:04:09
you can't say okay it'll be we won't you won't go to jail no you're not yeah it's
01:04:14
the only time I've ever lied is when somebody's going through psychosis um you have to buy into their
01:04:22
lie to um to get get them into the car cuz they know where they're going even
01:04:28
in the back of their mind they know where they're going and people in psychosis are so hard to to talk well
01:04:34
you don't talk with them you listen to them and they just and they end up talking so much they end up with the dry
01:04:41
um saliva around there they just talk and you can see the white in their their mouth or it's that's what that you know
01:04:45
they call it frothing but it's not it's just the the saliva all dry um and
01:04:50
that's the only time I'd ever say look come on let's just get in the car where
01:04:54
do you want to go okay let's go there that's the only time I've ever had
01:04:57
because then I I know that once they're in the car they'll see where we're going
01:05:01
and then they just fade a comply they they really do they just go oh yes are we going to the police station aren't we
01:05:07
yes we are because you need help you haven't been taking your medication and
01:05:11
so that um but no if you because the risk is if you lie to somebody you're going to be back with them again so as
01:05:20
soon as you turn up you might as well just walk away because if you've lied to
01:05:24
them they'll remember that and a lot of these people are come come back again and again not just in suicide
01:05:30
but also criminals you know they they'll they'll be cornered in the house cuz
01:05:33
that's what they know so two or three times you can be talking to a person within you know four or five years you
01:05:39
can talk to two or three times same position same nothing's changed you know
01:05:42
here he is again Li Lance yeah so you said I wasn't going to jail so that's it right so the only time
01:05:50
that we could have I was asked to lie was uh in was with George Baker now George Baker
01:05:56
um killed Liam Ashley in the back of a prison van he strangled him and every year on the anniversary of that that
01:06:03
death he would um go a little crazy OB you know well obviously it's guilt but
01:06:09
they don't know it as guilt because they he's um um not narcissist but he's got a
01:06:15
real almost um I don't know he's he's he's way off the end of of every Spectrum you could ever see on
01:06:24
so he's just got no emotional connection with anything but their guilt still
01:06:28
there and so um the prison can't they they had the prison locked down and you
01:06:33
can't aede to somebody's request otherwise it'll happen again and again
01:06:37
again so I said well I can't lie but I can get somebody else to lie on your behalf yes so this was um yeah he had
01:06:44
like a like an elderly so he went and kidnapped an inmate and held him hostage and he said at
01:06:49
9:30 I think it was 9:30 for memory 9:30 um you'll know the answer and so we were
01:06:55
able to go back through his file and it was at 9:30 that he got arrested off for murdering murdering
01:07:03
yeah that night and so what's significance there well we got to get him out of there before
01:07:08
9:30 because either he's going to take that person or he's going to kill
01:07:12
himself and so um there was a guy there who had uh been doing some negotiating with him and I mean inmates prisoners
01:07:22
can see can smell cops you you walk through the prison all year is that's original come on you had years years in
01:07:32
this cage to think that's the best you can do oink oink give me a break so what's um yeah what's that like going
01:07:39
into um a place like Pim This was um is this DB block the yes it used to be called DB block now they've got a name
01:07:45
for it now but it's the most uh highrisk so there was people in there like gely
01:07:50
head his leg shot off in in Christ Church there was all these really bad murder is and really you know high risk
01:07:58
um some of them actually shouldn't be there they should be in an institution
01:08:02
because they should be getting help because that's just completely you know mad yeah it's the worst of the
01:08:07
worst yeah he was there gr Burton the guy that Burton was there there was they were all there there was a whole lot of
01:08:14
them they were just the worst of um so we managed to get uh they can so I can't
01:08:19
do it I turned up I looked and went uh and so I role played a helper an assistant and and was was helping The
01:08:25
Negotiator and so they lied uh on their behalf and then they end up smashing them to the ground got him open the door
01:08:32
up what did he want he wanted to go to B Block which is a less secure facility yeah as if that's going to happen M bro
01:08:39
you're proving right now why when you you're an idiot but when you think of
01:08:44
what they don't know was there was the the prison so they have a team called
01:08:48
ACR which is avanced K and restraint so they have shields uh and there's just
01:08:53
one Squad of them so they they can put these squads together and and go into an entire prison and lock it down that's
01:08:59
fantastic the way do it so there's uh two Shields at the front and there's a
01:09:04
couple of with the round Shields at the back and two people in the middle and then uh a team leader and so my thumbs
01:09:09
up was they were going to go through the door and my thumbs down was the STG they're going to try and taser then they
01:09:16
they'll try the the bag that they've got a big um bean bag or he's going to
01:09:23
be um stopped M or like a ban bag gun yeah they got a bing bag gun or or the ultimate you know the the being shot and
01:09:32
um so luckily for me it was um it was that he managed to get him to to start taking cuz he' barricade and jammed the
01:09:40
lock up he started to pull it down so I just looked across and I went thumbs up right now the guy that was there
01:09:48
happened to be there by accident I'd been working with him for four years I used to go to their ACR courses and he
01:09:54
was a good good M of M right and he's ging them all up going just yours your
01:09:59
time to get it your time to win this is what we trained for this is and he got them so GED up they nearly
01:10:09
rushed wait and then then I went and they come around the corner and just I mean you
01:10:16
can't have it but as soon as they took him down you know but terrible thing to
01:10:20
do because they broke his nose and M him he was screaming like the whole prison went quiet m M dead you could literally
01:10:27
hear a pin drop you could hear nothing just silence everybody just stopped and it was just like that just
01:10:35
this whole it was eerie but when you walk into a place like that you can smell fear you the whole prisons aren't
01:10:44
good places you smell fear just fear testosterone you can smell it it's a sweet sickly smell there is that much
01:10:55
fear in prison it's a sweet sickly smell you can inside every one of those people
01:11:00
as a as a young child MH trying to get out right literally and figuratively um and so it's not the place to have them
01:11:07
because fear breeds [Music] fear we need like someone like George bely absolutely 100% but in a different
01:11:17
way not lock down the way we've got them locked down so you look at the Scandinavian countries way way different
01:11:24
it's still like home where they're locked in it's still they're still
01:11:28
treated with some form of dignity uh and their reci rate is was really low that they their success with
01:11:36
having um because of a completely different style is amazing it's quite funny like before um before my own
01:11:42
mental health struggles I was probably more like rightwing I would have been like nah
01:11:46
Lo me too yeah no good um but now it's like well you know eventually most of
01:11:52
these people are going to come out so you you know we want to see some sort of result or some sort of out I've met some
01:11:58
wonderful people that we EX in fact I I just bought a book the other day the guy
01:12:02
was just sitting um up at Roa at the shops and he's just sitting and he's
01:12:07
just got some books beside him I said oh like I said I Wake Them walked up to him
01:12:11
and shook his hand hey you going what are you up to goes I just just wrote a book here I oh did you I said are these
01:12:17
for sale yeah I'll buy one and he was an ex gang member and a very senior gang
01:12:21
member you had the full full facial and had everything um and he said yeah sometimes you know we
01:12:28
takes us a long time to learn and that's what a beautiful thing to say so they need to write a book and
01:12:35
to tell these people young people don't because the road's not worth it the
01:12:39
road's not worth it yeah but what's what's it like for you being face to
01:12:43
face with someone that you that you know is a like a a real nasty piece of work like a George
01:12:48
Baker I I'd still be I'd still be fearful of George Baker um he's not to
01:12:53
be trusted is he no that you he will he should never be let out there's some
01:12:58
people you must never let out but the system uh will let them down by letting them out and the system will let us down
01:13:06
by letting them out um yeah there's there's a few people like that like the
01:13:11
bows they must never ever get out they should be put in an institution where they get as much support as they can for
01:13:15
the rest of their life but yeah there's some very very bad people and it's it's
01:13:19
been done to them both those cases you mentioned but that was done to them as children that caused that thing to
01:13:25
happen to them yeah so it's not their fault right so but it's very hard to say
01:13:29
that but it's not their fault they were made that way yeah the old me would have
01:13:33
been like well because that was their upbring they should know not to do that to other people but I understand now
01:13:38
that's not how it works well I could tell you a story about um one of them and I won't tell you which one who was
01:13:43
put in a 44 gallon drum with the lid put on that bashed with a stick every time they were naughty in the darkness and it
01:13:50
so what would that cause it's heartbreaking that's just heartbreaking yeah and I I got asked
01:13:56
once confidentially by um by uh the crown cister one day said what can we do about
01:14:04
these people I said we'll kill their parents first because they did it and he said
01:14:10
you can't say that just did I just did let's start with that yeah so they you
01:14:15
know so they won't have any more influence on them and then let's start with the with working on the person in
01:14:20
front of us um one thing just looking back to something we were talk about before the
01:14:26
you the the dad in the car with the knife at the beach that had been um molesting his own
01:14:31
children so you you know your job your role there as a negotiator like how how are you able to find any sort of
01:14:37
compassion with that sort of person um looking forward to the future so very hard to do when you got
01:14:45
your own kids and you think what is wrong with you you know but but understanding that it's something that
01:14:51
it's intergenerational you're just you're not not born it you're not you're not born
01:14:57
with that Gene you might have we're all born with genetic dispositions but we're
01:15:00
not born and we have the gene but they have to be activated and so what activated that Gene and that person
01:15:07
that's what I hold on to that inside there may be a good person inside there
01:15:13
might be a good person and let's hold on to that and let's see if we can give
01:15:18
them an opportunity yes they've probably well they have destroyed two lives um um
01:15:25
and so we've got to start somewhere so start with this person they're going to
01:15:29
go to jail so that's their punishment right and then they get some help while
01:15:33
they're in there now we have to also wrap around the children but that's not
01:15:39
what's being done we aren't spending enough time on the victims these days of
01:15:42
wrapping around the oh that's all good they're okay now because we've got a
01:15:45
prosecution so they'll be feeling good it's a bit like the postvention right
01:15:49
and suicide oh they've survived that suicide attempt so they're all good now
01:15:54
yeah they made it no no we're not we haven't got enough wraparound services
01:15:58
for for people that need help so the um The napia Siege would it be fair to say that this is like career
01:16:08
defining would you say yeah I feel like it's pretty significance this is 15 years ago it was it was the probably the
01:16:14
was biggest in my career but biggest that um in fact the person my predecessor would have been his biggest
01:16:21
as well he said so hopefully it'll never repeat itself again but yes it was a it
01:16:27
was a it was a matter of bringing um every skill we all had so we brought in I think four maybe five teams yeah every
01:16:35
sko that we could man manage to get that resolved so um just a a quick recap and
01:16:41
correct me if I get anything wrong it's a guy called Yan molo who was growing
01:16:43
some cannabis in his house had a a a massive massive supply of weapons um police came to do a check presumably
01:16:51
because of the smell of cannabis and he just saw the Red Mist shot a cop shot his neighbor who tried to intervene in
01:16:56
the league y shot another cop yeah shot it right yeah shot shot and killed one cop and then shot another cop and then I
01:17:02
think probably another two and then his neighbor and then barricaded himself in his house taking shots at and then yeah
01:17:08
he had um I think they got 14 or 15 weapons all had been modified in some way to become automatic weapons and he
01:17:14
was just firing willy-nilly into the into the neighborhood so he was ready for a fight wasn't he he was he was
01:17:19
ready and he had some military training um as well which made it worse and he'
01:17:23
put he made it well know that booby traps around the property um and that was to keep gang members away because he
01:17:29
was the gangs controlled in Orcs Bay they controlled the the drugs and he was selling and so yeah there was a big fear
01:17:36
there for him of that and that's why he did that very difficult uh to get through to him um and that's the first
01:17:43
time I've ever used I I just fairly recently come back from the FBI negotiators course in quano and uh they
01:17:51
talked about um uh oh goodness me they um in Texas they had that uh the wo Waco right yeah
01:18:01
they'd come back from there and I I I remember reading in there that some part
01:18:05
of it they used a family member to try and engage and so that sort of put that little spark into my mind of maybe we
01:18:13
could use his partner to help break through we did in the end yeah because you're you're ruled up until that point
01:18:19
was not to involve a family member because um it gives them opportunity to say goodbye opportunity say goodbye and
01:18:25
yeah to end it all that's why you never bring them you know somebody who's
01:18:27
suicidal or can we bring somebody along you get my mom here you think oh okay we'll get the mom and they go this is
01:18:32
for you and off they go um so we bring them to the scene but we debrief them and so we got uh we got her to we said
01:18:41
this is what we want to say put it into a text message and so how would you say that and then she would say what we were
01:18:49
saying but in her own words and send it to them back and forth what we didn't
01:18:52
know was that there was another an next part of his was also sending other ones you know kill yourself you're loser so
01:18:58
we're up against that but didn't know it um and so in the end we put her Adell on
01:19:04
on the phone and um because he was was a a risk willing to take we'd be given a
01:19:10
tight time frame if it doesn't end by here we're going in yeah cuz this been
01:19:16
on for so long he yeah well it was was it was over 12 hours of holding the town at Ransom so the whole town because he
01:19:21
had high powerered rifles he could shoot from the Hospital Hill across into into
01:19:26
the city so the whole town was basically being held hostage yeah and it gets to the point where it becomes such a big
01:19:32
Nationwide story you got politicians then you got oh well they turned up well that was great yeah awesome had the
01:19:37
Deputy Commissioner come through hi here you go you need that like a ho the head when
01:19:43
you're thinking so this thing kicks off and you get flowing down from ockland to
01:19:46
nap and westpack helicopter um so are are you reading notes on the way down are you briefed on the way down you you
01:19:54
get down there i' already had a number of briefings in the morning and on the
01:19:58
way down um I had in my mind because P had just come on the scene that was quite rampant at that point and um again
01:20:06
I guess I could joke about it um I I said to the so there was there was myself there was the STG members we had
01:20:12
two helicopters there there was police helicopter and the wispack by the time we got there there was military planes
01:20:17
helicopters it was just like a war zone time we landed and I remember saying oh this all all be over by 10 we'll be home
01:20:23
out of here soon a bit M maletic consequently things didn't go as well as I thought so um and and it went on a bit
01:20:37
longer than I thought yeah yeah yeah so so at the conclusion conclusion of that he ended up um end up taking his own
01:20:43
life yeah um yeah how you it would have been good to have him hold to account well you
01:20:48
feel responsible for it I had to go and have some serious counseling after that because you do feel responsible and it
01:20:54
does take some time to work through we're responsible for yeah and people will say yeah but he deserved it well no
01:20:59
the the goal is to get everybody out and I wanted to get him out to hold him to account so he could see what he'd done
01:21:05
so he could feel the pain of everybody else so he could be punished and maybe rehabilitated but
01:21:12
certainly be punished for all that and so um you know we have to be held to account for our for our sins and so that
01:21:19
would have been the time when he took his life it did take I didn't sleep much
01:21:22
that night I have to say and then for the next couple nights and then I had to go and get some some psychological
01:21:26
support just to to work through the process of this is why it happened this is how it happened and here's the
01:21:34
outcome of it and I remember um when the STG came back in after getting into the
01:21:39
house and finding him dead uh coming back and one of them just said to me if we'd gone through that door there'd be
01:21:45
more of us dead because of the way he'd set the house up yes and he it was his
01:21:49
way of saying thank you Lance for what you did yes so was the part of you like at the conclusion of that that you
01:21:56
you feel like you failed oh you feel like a failure well the well the idea is to get everyone goes home safe no matter
01:22:01
who they are everyone and that's the number one aim of Crisis negotiating everyone goes home it's it's not like
01:22:09
you see on TV how can you we did that we were asked to encourage him to come towards the window because at that point
01:22:14
it was at such a dangerous stage that that was our role so he could be shot um but then a as the time went on the
01:22:23
urgency waned and so therefore legal opinion from headquarters says no the urgency is not there anymore so it's now
01:22:33
arrest so was the wrong call to put his patterner on the phone no it was the right call I still say it today it was
01:22:39
the right call it was his choice ultimately just like we talked about at the very start going back to the start
01:22:42
it's their choice so his choice was I can either come out and suffer the consequences or I can take my I can end
01:22:52
it all here and so he choose option be yeah it's funny so that was well it's
01:22:58
not funny at all actually but that was 15 years ago and I think one of his one of his um lines in his final
01:23:03
conversation to his partner was he didn't want to spend 15 years you locked up in a cage and uh yeah had he done
01:23:09
that had yeah probably be coming close now to having a meeting with the parole board yeah yeah yeah so I mean that's
01:23:15
that's the thing about life right we just don't know what's going to be in
01:23:17
front of us and then we can work through some things here for sure what was some
01:23:20
of the hindsight learnings from that scenario um well the biggest one was um never to put the person on and uh and to
01:23:28
record it so that was and I got that from a guy from Texas um from my FBI course the guy from Texas was everything
01:23:36
happens in Texas he's got some great videos about his negotiation time but he said uh we
01:23:41
always record their voice so they can't say goodbye so that's one of now the new
01:23:48
protocols as you record the person the loved one saying please come out darling I you know I'm here for you you know
01:23:53
I'll be here right to the end where through this we'll get through it together and you do it as a recording so
01:23:57
they can't say goodbye it's it's funny that CU you think hearing if you're in that state
01:24:02
hearing a partner's voice encouraging you to come out would be I don't know I
01:24:07
maybe I'm thinking from a rational point of thinking Yeah well yeah he was in
01:24:09
crisis right so very rare crisis plus his brother had committed suicide I think about a year earlier
01:24:15
yeah um yeah another one of your your massive jobs in the police was um you in charge
01:24:21
of the uh 111 Northern Communication Center uh we was in charge of the Staffing of it yeah so looking after the
01:24:28
staff as in um their training their well the recruitment it end up being recruitment training and then the
01:24:34
ongoing support that they needed yeah was that like hectic job oh hell of a job there was 300 and something just in
01:24:40
the ockland uh let alone then taking over the responsibility for we re changed the recruitment process um for
01:24:49
it um but yeah no it was a it was a fascinating job because I was also not only there to help part of the role was
01:24:56
also there to um hold people to account so you were both uh the the the person who did the hugging and the
01:25:04
person who did the the the telling off what sort of what's what's an average day like know like that well if
01:25:13
if you're on the floor um you're you're running from job to job to job uh
01:25:17
because as the inspector you you must be uh if it's a if it's a Firearms job if
01:25:23
it's a Pursuit you must stand next to the or sit next to the the the um dispatcher and listen and if sometimes
01:25:31
turn on and go abandoned pursuit or this is now going to another stage or uh you
01:25:36
have control so you've got that whole overall control uh it's the worst job
01:25:40
because you're not there you can't see you believe you have everything's done
01:25:43
by sight everything's done by um something by site by watching a map and where they put the little icons and then
01:25:49
hearing and you're listening for things but that's it and you're in charge
01:25:54
so it's a hell of a hell of a responsibility that you don't get trained for you're just there you just
01:26:00
learn on the job you just learn on the job what's this button for was my what's
01:26:05
my what's my catch cry what does this button do and all I hear inspector don't
01:26:11
touch it yeah well that must make um this next part of your career seem like um a little bit of fun in comparison I
01:26:19
don't know maybe I'm completely wrong but the vi PP stuff oh the vs yeah
01:26:22
what's that a very important person protection Squad yeah um so you were working with um Helen Clark as prime
01:26:28
minister for a while yeah yeah it was great um what what did that entail so um there was two parts of it one was the
01:26:35
VIP protection side and the other one was the witness protection side so we had two parts within that same building
01:26:40
um and it used to be based in R rnz house underneath Radio New Zealand on the level one and there was double doors
01:26:46
like um Maxell smart type thing you know it's all secret it's a very cool job uh
01:26:51
very very highly trained highly skilled operators uh who ultimate profession um the training is you get to smash cars up
01:27:01
um not as not as much as we used to but you still get to break a few cars and you still get to what do you mean crash
01:27:07
crash them yeah sometimes they crash and they're training you f accident of course but I mean where else where else
01:27:15
what other kind of job do you know where you get given a firearm and you get given a rifle and you get given um a car
01:27:24
and they say go out and protect that person it's a cool job and the training
01:27:30
is exceptional they you go to Oak and the airbase there and they've got a track that you go on and you you know
01:27:37
they they run all these scenarios past you and you do a whole day a full day of firing firearm so just a full day of
01:27:45
just Glock pistol your fingers are red sometimes bleeding with loading the magazines and with firing that the
01:27:52
finger is bruised what isn't that great is it yeah it is because you get so highly skilled at using Firearms it
01:28:01
becomes absolutely intuitive you know I can still do a an automatic relay without even
01:28:08
technical relay without even thinking muscle memory happens just muscle memory it just happens right so you just click
01:28:14
the mag out you have the other one you bring the other one up click it pull it put the other one in it's done you just
01:28:18
do it without even just happens so it's a pretty cool job yeah that must been um
01:28:23
a what I can't talk about of course I don't I don't know if this is something you've you've reflected on or
01:28:29
maybe I'm overthinking this but um yeah you were like a kid in balls when your
01:28:32
dad was at ohaki Airbase now you are back there in this very very important role uh doing this training at ohaki it
01:28:39
must have felt like a very very satisfying full circle it was it was yeah life's lot and I lots of circles
01:28:45
Clos but that was quite a surreal sort of place because I was actually in the shop uh I thought I going to have a look
01:28:51
and in the shop they have shops you obviously with the people on BAS M and I went there and I was shopping and here's
01:28:56
the instructors in there as well and what are you doing in here why aren't you you know reading or training or
01:29:01
something what am I going to read what am I going to train for I'm home this is
01:29:05
my home I live here I lived here and that night um we had some beers at the sergeant M and I was there at the
01:29:13
sergeant M having beers too the only one there and shouldn't you be doing no no
01:29:18
because this Feels Like Home to me it was a whole returning back to where I grew up said this is home I'm enjoying
01:29:24
this and were there any like any incidents or anything when you were looking after Helen Clark not really um
01:29:33
well not I can't say I'm not allowed to you're still sworn by the secrecy of it
01:29:37
but um there were times when uh we didn't know where she was that was that was horrible times for the for the team
01:29:44
what do you mean for how long what duration time for for for an hour or two hours or not realizing you know that she
01:29:49
might have gone somewhere she might go to the gym or she might just do something that doesn't we don't know and
01:29:54
that's scary scary as hell yeah not yeah well well I mean you can't be standing
01:30:02
over someone the whole time no right and she's the Prime Minister when you what
01:30:06
are you supposed to do um yeah it's interesting job it really was it was um you
01:30:15
know I I I guess she didn't like to have police around here I guess would be the
01:30:20
the easiest way of saying that but yet when they were there I know that appreciated it like for example that
01:30:25
she's on a plane and the door flies off of the plane so they're she physically
01:30:29
holding the door a little plane and the the protection offic is holding the door
01:30:32
closed so it won't fly off um I'm sure she appreciated that um what was what was she like as a
01:30:41
person CU i' imagine very serious right yeah cuz i' imagine she wouldn't know
01:30:45
who I was cuz I was the in charge of M you got to see her a few times and I'd
01:30:49
I'd often just pop into the house so um wherever the prime minister is there is
01:30:54
a protection team so they're somewhere nearby so they're either in a car
01:30:57
watching or they're in a house nearby and so there's always uh and so we in those days we had a house right
01:31:04
next door and so I'd be sitting in there with the with the with the um wasn't a
01:31:08
Protection Officer they they call them the uh residential Security Group who are highly trained and they do patrols
01:31:15
they do random patrols at different times and yeah looking after so you're there most of the time but it is easy to
01:31:20
get away because you don't want to be completely over them mhm you John ke he
01:31:25
had um the security guys living on a camper van on his driveway and um I'd imagine I can imagine John let taking
01:31:32
Pizza out to them same as just maybe maybe cooking pikelets for them Helen probably not so much not so much she was
01:31:39
so Prime ministerial she was she was she was a gy love to get her on the podcast
01:31:43
and then I was that that V vipps role is that what took you to the Olympics and the cworth games as well uh so after
01:31:50
that yeah so after that it was just another part of the career I applied to go and do that so I ended up with
01:31:56
looking after the the London Olympics and then uh in the village and then also at the deli Comm games looking after the
01:32:02
Olympics the athletes at the conth gam so all you're doing is you're making
01:32:07
assessments of where all the venues are so you actually go and visit every single venue like it's a hell of a job
01:32:13
Dom and you go and visit all the all the big uh it's a great great gig so you get
01:32:18
given a a pass that gets you anywhere to go anywhere doesn't matter who you are
01:32:24
you just flash your badge and then you go it's great so so you had to watch a
01:32:29
few events no no well that's the thing I I I'm not a sporty sort of guy even
01:32:34
though I try and keep fit um and uh I think that's probably why I got the gig
01:32:39
because I don't I'm not that much involved in sports I just I'll watch it
01:32:44
maybe but no I my role was to be looking for the safety so I was I was I love that part of it so I'm talking with
01:32:52
other security officers from around the world uh loved it I you know I fact in the
01:32:58
Olympics at London the SAS were there the Special Operations group they call themselves now in the house next door to
01:33:03
where we were and they spotted me um and and said you know do you want to come over and say good day and and I got to
01:33:10
learn how they operated you know so very cool that that was that was where I like
01:33:15
to be in there rather than sitting watching I know that one year um somebody just went to the one of the
01:33:21
cops just went to the um volleyball the the beach Vol all and that's where we
01:33:26
spend his whole days apparently men's and women's or just just women's I want tell you who it was yeah
01:33:36
um well yeah I suppose it's like mostly a fun job but um you got to be hypervigilant though because if anything
01:33:41
goes wrong it's like you're there question you're it right and so that's
01:33:44
what I was I was hypervigilant yeah yeah so it was um was it 10 years ago that you left the place yeah 10 years 10
01:33:50
years yeah how how was that how was adjustment life post place um I have to say uh about a month after leaving I was
01:33:59
driving through town I looked up and I went [ __ ] that's an ugly building and I
01:34:03
realized it was Oakland Central police station it was like turning a light switch off never looked back never want
01:34:10
to go back and that's the same building where in 1999 you on the flo floor never
01:34:14
even thought about that yep and I just completely Switched Off and went that's
01:34:18
it good life over and so now it's just about uh never being in a better place
01:34:24
living the dream helping people sharing my story listening to other people's
01:34:28
story hopefully helping as much as I can but just living life to the fullest I have to say yeah just really enjoying
01:34:36
everything I do you you you had a real um lowkey farewell do you do you sort of regret that now after a 22 year career
01:34:43
the only reason I regret it is somebody said to me it's not about you it was
01:34:47
about us when you left we weren't able to say goodbye uh and that caught that hurt
01:34:54
because I never thought of it from that way so I was I was still very self-centered at that time still very
01:34:59
selfish were you were you sort of better and burnt out yeah better and burnt out
01:35:03
yeah yeah there's a reason I stayed 22 years and not 21 I got I was I had my um
01:35:09
Good Conduct a long service I got But A Good Conduct but it wasn't quite there
01:35:13
and so they delayed it by a year so I thought I'll wait a year then almost to
01:35:19
the day they said here you are I went see you yeah yeah um what what do you miss the most about it and what are you
01:35:26
glad to leave behind uh I miss the camaraderie I miss I miss the intensity of of intense situations make friends
01:35:35
and Friends you'll never forget people that that you can stand beside and Trust
01:35:39
um that's what I miss um but that's probably it um now I'm just loving what I do look where I
01:35:48
am I'm here I'm here you're on the dumb heavy podcast It's been a From Grace no
01:35:54
it's not it's been it's been a wonderful journey and I'm I'm very lucky to done
01:35:58
and I've got some very good people around me which you should always have and I know you do too and so yeah it's
01:36:04
about um being uh being you and being your genuine self yeah any regrets none no things I would have do done
01:36:15
differently absolutely but regrets I've now learned to go I cannot change them I
01:36:20
can be a better person because of them yeah and you proud of yourself I am now I am now how long did
01:36:29
it take you to get there about last week and I'll leave here and go oh there's still a couple of other things
01:36:37
you might want to work on yeah yeah yeah hey this has been a great chat I mentioned we had these um questions from
01:36:42
people on Instagram but um I've taken up enough of your yeah I've got to go I've
01:36:46
got to go for some physio Dom yeah do you yeah yeah yep therapy from the neck down there one for the leg Yeah um this
01:36:54
has been so great thanks so much for sharing how the the police stuff how how is it to talk about that um yeah well
01:37:00
I've got a dry mouth um it does take you back there but um I've forgotten about it this is the
01:37:09
most I've ever talked about it um and I put it behind me and every so often I'll
01:37:14
I'll get somebody will say uh like just recently I'm helping somebody who's
01:37:18
who's an island so I know he may not see this um and he I worked with him and he
01:37:22
said I always remember you when we went to a special investigations the four of us went to the special investigations in
01:37:30
fatani and uh he said I remember you said so what's your claim to fame and he
01:37:37
said what a great way to get people to introduce themselves so what's your claim to fame I didn't even sometimes
01:37:43
you you touch people with in a way that you don't even realize you've done it
01:37:46
with some words you say you know people will come up and say I remember when you
01:37:50
said this and I'm like did I say that don't remember what's yours claim to
01:37:56
fame um well apart from the P 47a my claim to fame I guess is I don't know uh
01:38:03
I'd like to be known I'd like to be remembered by the person who tried to
01:38:06
help as many people as possible yeah I think that would be my legacy of of he was somebody who was worked hard to try
01:38:14
and make it better for others in this last part of life his last third of his life um I owe a lot to my wife uh for
01:38:24
for putting up with me uh and she's still the rock to this day you're right
01:38:28
and she's she needs the one that needs to be interviewed because she's put up
01:38:32
with a lot of of she's seen the best and the worst the very worst of me and and
01:38:37
and I'm so lucky that she's still live do you think she's proud of the guy she
01:38:41
married oh she better be yeah hey well thank you for um yeah I mean it's um she
01:38:47
much this it's it's it's a funny job it's such an essential job and um you
01:38:52
know there some people that Pro police some people that are anti police but uh you know the sacrifices that you made
01:38:56
and I'm sure the stuff that you missed on with your kids um to try and make New
01:39:00
Zealand a better to society I mean I appreciate it for one thank you mate thank you and I appreciate you being
01:39:05
here today um yeah my pleasure I love it great yeah same here it's been been
01:39:09
fascinating Lance P you're a great New Zealander oh thank you Dom yeah I really
01:39:12
appreciate it thank you