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sir Brian Williams welcome to my podcast thank you Dom pleasure to be here you um
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whenever I call you sir Brian you usually correct me well exactly it's BG or Brian mate forget the sir part yeah
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um yes I I uh messaged you about a week ago to ask you to come on the podcast and then um I found a copy of your book
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from 1981 at a secondhand Bookshop and I sent you a picture it saying um I'm
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going to read your book and do some research and you um you sent me a reply saying um oh a fair bits happened since
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that that was written which is like 43 years ago or something yeah well exactly um that that book was written in 1981
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and and um you know I've had a pretty extensive um both coaching and and administrative uh career uh since that
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that book was written so there's quite a few chapters uh Unwritten yeah so that book just really
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covers the um basically the 1970s and your your playing career as as an all black um it's quite funny though the uh
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the very last words the last paragraph in that book um when was the last time you you picked it up for a flick thr by
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the way can you remember what the last words are or how the book something like I climb to the top of the tree and um
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and I'm happy to climb down or something words to that effect I think I've got
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them here uh while while in the All Blacks my contribution to the pon Rugby Club diminished ponsonby is where I
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started out and ponsonby is where I'll be the rest of my Sporting Life philosophically speaking I've come home
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yeah okay yeah yeah so that was 1981 and um sure enough like you're here today
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with a pby rugby shirt on you're still on the the the committee the board still
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on the committee and uh we just had our AGM um last Monday night actually and uh
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so I was I was down there and had a had a bit to say so yeah still still doing my bit for ponies but um you know it's
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it's been a family uh club for me my brothers uh played for pby we were able
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to play together um for the prems and uh our two sons Gavin and Paul uh have played for Pon my nephew Brett uh and
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and now we've got a number of our grandchildren playing for the ponies as well so it really is a family club and
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and uh I I I just love it you do he it's such a big part of your life and to think that you you know you
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said that in 1981 and it's um it's it's dead dead right it's 100% accurate well
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it it it's my wife says I I say to her you know I tell people it's it's my home
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away from home and she says no it's your home and you come to my place for visits
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she says so to some degree that that's reasonably accurate that's cool I've got
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some other um little um bits and pieces that I found in the final chapter of of that book um I doubt that over the past
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decade one day has passed without reference to rugby or the fact that I was an all black how often does it
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happen now well it still happens pretty frequently to be honest and um you know rugby is so all-encompassing in in in
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the New Zealand psyche you go to the supermarket and someone will recognize you you go anywhere and someone will
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make reference to it um so you know it's nature of the Beast once you've been in
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all black people remember yeah and you were a big deal I I didn't really so I was born in 1973 so
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I I um I just know you as um as um Bei the nice man that lived down the road from me um so I'd go for a run down the
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the end of my street into the park and you'd usually be out there bloody I don't know chopping down flax bushes or
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watching some kids rugby in the park or playing with your grandkids um and I didn't I I I I feel kind of ignorant I
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didn't realize just what a big deal you were well don't get too carried away
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mate no no no you were though you were like you you were like the man like the you know you came on the scene from what
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I can gather in 1970 and um were like the you know the the biggest thing in New Zealand at the time well I um yeah
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it was an really interesting uh time obviously i' i' dreamed of being an all
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black um although initially I I started in rugby league I I grew up uh idolizing
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some of the Kiwi players of of the 1950s um playing for the pon rugby league club and then um that team um uh
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disbanded for various reasons people moved out of the area uh so my two brothers CES and Ken were both playing
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for pby rugby and they they talked me into going uh to join the pby Rugby Club and of course um apart from one year uh
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when I went back to the league I've played rugby for the rest of my life yeah it's been such a big part of your
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life hey been been a huge part of my life and um you know I'm I'm eternally
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grateful for it because it's uh given me so many wonderful experiences you know
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people I've met um uh places I've been um so many highlights some low lights
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you know you have your setbacks along the way and that that's all part of uh
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of of life's journey m like what what Springs to mind oh injuries um lack of
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form uh not being selected th those are some of the setbacks that that can occur
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I've had a number of uh um you know big injuries I had a dislocated hip in a
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test match against France in 1977 and subsequently I've had three hip replacement operations and uh so that
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that was perhaps the worst injury uh but there's been broken bones and concussions and bruises and um yeah so
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lots of injuries also but as mentioned so so many highlights yeah um there's so much I
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want to get to like you talk about the injuries you actually were playing in the same game as um the the famous one
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where Colin Mees broke his arm and carried on playing so we'll get to that it's like a part of New Zealand Rugby
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sort of folklore um but there's another bit in your book um again written in
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1981 I find myself wondering now what challenges and goals lie ahead geez you had no trouble finding plenty of things
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to do did you no I I I didn't really I I um you know I had my challenges uh when
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I was playing I I um I I ended up at law school after leaving Mount Alber grammar
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school and um um and that that presented a big challenge because um you know I had no background whatsoever
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in the law none of my family members had had been involved in in the law and um so it took me a while uh to come to
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terms with with learning and um you know just technique exam technique at at University you haven't got teach
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teachers sort of uh on on your case all the time you've you've got to learn how
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to Mana manage your time self discipline self-discipline and um you know I was trying to trying to play rugby at the
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the top level but I still had to try and fit in fit in my studies as well so that
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that was quite a challenge yeah actually um yeah I think this was in your book or
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maybe it's just something I read online but um it may be true it may not um but
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apparently you told your your girlfriend at the time who's now your wife um that
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your three goals in order were um make the All Blacks become a lawyer and then a husband yeah well as mentioned she's
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never forgiven me for for putting it in that order but uh I've got to say um we celebrated
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our our 51st wedding anniversary just earlier this week so it's it's been a
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that's been a huge highlight in my life oh surely she forgives you now you hope
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so well she spent at least 51 years with me let's put it that way yeah that's um
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you must be immensely proud of that yeah it's it's perhaps my biggest highlight
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do I yep um you know the Rugby's been great I I always wanted to be an or but
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um you know your relationship and and your children your grandchildren uh it's
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it's every day and um you know if you don't get that part of it right then you
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know sometimes things don't don't quite work out how how um how have you done it
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is is there any sort of like um secret to the success of longevity in a marriage or oh I think she deserves a a
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lot of credit I I spent a fair amount of time away particularly early you know both playing and coaching wise I I
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remember um when I retired from playing and I I came home and I was pretty emotional about it and I said to her oh
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dear I've I've I've retired and and you're going to see a lot more of me and
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well within about two or three weeks I was coaching the pon Prem with Morris tra and and we went on to the Oakland
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team and then I got involved with the Manu sore and International Rugby and then the the hurricanes with gr muray my
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mate Goss uh so there was a lot of lot of time away from home as well so she she's been Longs suffering and and my
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greatest mate oh that's wonderful oh that's a yeah calling someone your greatest mate
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I think that's awesome what was the um yeah I mean you mentioned just in like
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the conversation you had with her in rugby finished um that she was going to see a lot more of you what was that um
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transition like back then because I know a lot of players in this professional era sort of struggle with that but back
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then you had jobs and stuff anyway a well we did and and I um i' I'd done
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that law degree and uh dur during my all black career I was having to sit exams while we were on tour uh when we went to
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the UK in 7273 I I set four exams um in the first month of that 4 and a half month tour so I I knew if I knuckled
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down you know for that first first month I I could still get my teeth into the the tour for the for the next three and
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a half months and I I managed to pass those exams but I I suspect it was With a Little Help from uh from from my uh
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Dean and and the teachers the tutors back home but U be that as a May and and you
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know I had some some good friends who who were taking notes for me and um and and I I managed managed to pass my exam
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so uh yeah that was certainly a big challenge at the time I I just noticed you you um
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picked up on something you said there four and a half month tour like now um at the time we're recording this the ORS
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have just recently had the 2024 end of year tour and everyone talks about how long the tour is and how by the time
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they got to the final game against Italy they're all fatigued geez you must think
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they're soft four and a half months it's crazy the point was that we were playing two
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games a week and and um having to pack up and travel twice a week as well so it was it was constant constantly on on the
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go and um and we only had 30 players two two teams of 15 so if you if you got injures injuries um players had to back
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up they'd either be playing or they'd be on the bench midweek and I remember
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Billy Bush at one stage on one of our tours play play was involved in eight games in a row we we was either playing
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or or on the bench and and um never getting a break you know front row forward so so that was the nature of the
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Beast um that long tour we we only had one coach one manager uh we had a baggage man no doctor no
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physiotherapist uh as you can imagine logistically it was it was very difficult and and um but the players all
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had to mck in you know if you didn't have those guys um then then you the players had to do it and um you know
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with our one coach in in 7273 Bob Duff who was an all black lock forward before his coaching career and U
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we had a whole lot of young backs Grant baddy Bruce Robertson Joe carum myself an Hurst and and a number of others um
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he'd just say you backs go over there and do some moves and then we'll see you
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later and we were we were 20 2 one years old you know and coaching ourselves you
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know so it was uh pretty pretty challenging but you were you were wellfed because obviously the team
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nutritionalist and chefs had you on a a good a good diet uh what nutritionalist what
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chefs yeah wow I I can't wait to um sink our teeth into the the touring side of
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things because it's just a different world isn't it um but let's go all the
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way back to the beginning so you're born in um October 1950 y and in in ponson b
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um where you now the area you live in now is sort of on the fringes of ponon be it's called West Meir yeah um but
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more or less Pon what what what are your very earliest memories um my my parents uh you know
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they came uh to to New Zealand uh during their teenage years and and dad was sent
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up here to enlist in the um the war effort for the second world war and um mom's uh situation her dad and
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fortunately was um badly injured in a hurricane in raratonga where they were living and where my mom was born and um
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so they ended up coming uh to New Zealand um on an assisted passage uh Granddad used to work for the New
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Zealand government up in raratonga um and and of course Mom and Dad met uh early um they managed to buy a house
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with a state advances loan back in those days in ponsonby right in the heart of ponsonby O'Neal street ponsonby and um
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so that that's where we were bought up in the early days um went to Richmond
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Road uh School primary school and um then eventually um my brothers and I went off to mount Alber grammar school
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were you were you a good kid I think I was a good kid I um you know when when you get involved in in
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sports uh particularly um uh uh that that's going to keep you occupied for a
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fair amount of the time uh my mom played piano so we'd often have um uh you know
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sing alongs around the the piano and and um so there was always um you know lots
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of music lots of sport um a fair emphasis on on Academia you know wanting wanting to do really well at school so I
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I was a good kid I think and um you know I ended up becoming uh a prefect and and
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head prefect and that sort of thing um and then much the same uh when I went went off to secondary school yeah what
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was the most trouble you got in can you remember um even even good kids have bad
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days no you know back in the days of capital punishment um you know Mom particularly she she had a a suo one of
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those uh Island brooms and and if you got those around your legs you you knew all about it or or she had a little
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wooden brush you know so um you know if you uh weren't toing the line you you
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sure uh felt it so you learn pretty quickly well you learn you learn pretty quick yeah and was it a bilingual
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household no it wasn't unfortunately and and that's one of my great regrets that
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um Dad was brought up in sore so he spoke sore and and and mom was um brought up in raratonga and she spoke
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raratonga so they they couldn't actually um speak each other's lingo and of
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course you come to New Zealand and um being a Pacific Islander in New Zealand back in those days uh wasn't um very
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fashionable at all you know you were you were workers and and and troublemakers really and and um so so being Pacifica
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uh you know so you weren't encouraged to to show your culture to to speak to
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language um but fortunately all all that has has changed now but back then it was
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pretty difficult yeah so you just try and blend in as best you can blend in and and become um you know
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Europeans yeah it's funny so um I had Kevin Mamu on the the podcast a few weeks ago and um he said one of his
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biggest regrets in life is not knowing the language because he was he was same sort of thing his parents um came to New
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Zealand moved to TOA um and he just never had the opportunity to learn it and um he I got the sense me feels like
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it's some sort of deep sort of Shame and regret about not knowing the language
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yeah yeah um well that's interesting because I I pretty much feel feel the same way and um one of my only sister
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Lorraine has ended up um going up and living in sore she'd been up there for
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the last 40 43 years something like that uh but she doesn't speak the S language
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either because we never learned it uh as kids yeah you never had the chance and what was possibly like back then P Pon
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now it's a very very well-to-do suburb most houses have a plunge pool out the
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back now well initially um it it was a European uh neighborhood um and then we had that um you know big migration of P
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Pacifica people um after after the second world war and um yeah late 50s early 60s ponon be became a a Pacifica
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um um part of Oakland and um you you go up to Pon road back in those days and it
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was pretty much spot the parangi yeah it was and and now of course it's it's quite quite the
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opposite um you know in the probably the 80s I suppose um you know all the developers started to come into um uh
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Pon and and develop the houses refurbish them and and then Pon Road became the um
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restaurant and Cafe capital of of Oakland and um so it changed again so I've seen some real transition over uh
00:19:07
pby and you know people used to say well you know we're moving to Northshore
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we're moving oh I said I'm staying I'm staying in pby this is my home oh you've got a fabulous spot too
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overlooking Cox's Bay beautiful beautiful spot and it and it is your home yeah you born and bred there um
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you're part of the fabric with the ponies Club yeah why would you move anywhere else well exactly Cox's Bay
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wasn't so much where I was born um O'Neal street Pony you know was was where we were brought up and and um
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yeah I still take my grand grandchildren down there from time to time and just show them the old house and I suppose
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you were you were um busy being um this this famous flashy or black at the time but do you have any Recollections of the
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Dawn raids yeah I do um yeah it was a a shameful period of of uh of of New Zealand history really and and um as as
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mentioned before you know being uh Pacifica in New Zealand uh during those times what wasn't very fashionable at
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all you you were frowned upon and uh um yeah so uh to to see that unfold uh was very sad and unpalatable I must say you
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being being um like a well a well-known um New Zealander at the time like were you able to to like voice your disgust
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about it or anything or well I did I guess uh to to my circle of people I I I was still in the OR blacks and
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relatively young or black I guess at that stage so um I I hadn't become uh you know very vocal about things like
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that um and and I probably should have I should have done said more from what I can gather about you you you were quite
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shy at the time as well well I I was shy uh initially and and um I Won't Say I'm
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shy now and well sometimes it takes a while to grow into the person you well it does
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and and you know you um that all black career uh gave me uh confidence and and you know particularly in in public
00:21:24
speaking I I remember um you know the first time I had to get up and and make a speech and I I I was a blithering
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idiot you know and and and sweating and and um you know couldn't put two sentences together and and um but but
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you learn you learn how to do things like that and you gain confidence and then you realize that people are
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actually listening to what you've got to say and and you can use that platform um
00:21:53
you know politically or or otherwise yeah what are your memories of making the for the very first time how how was
00:22:00
it done back then was it was it a radio announcement did you get a phone call no
00:22:04
no it was um a series of of all black trials and in beginning of 1970 um we had a a number of preseason games um
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before the uh tour and um I I was asked to play for various teams my my um all black um Club mate um Malcolm dick who
00:22:28
who'd been in the old blacks for a number of years he he um managed to get me invited to play in different games
00:22:36
you you know he told them there's this young kid who looks as if he might be
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okay and um so so those games sort of became pseudo trials and and then we had a an all black trial uh in um paliston
00:22:51
north um and then the final trial at Athletic Park in in Wellington in 96 and after the game um I didn't score a
00:23:03
try in either of those uh trials but I I played pretty good and um you you go into under the um grandstand at Athletic
00:23:13
Park it used to be a big sort of concrete uh jungle it was awful it was awful it was cold and
00:23:21
miserable and um you all congregate there and and the uh the chairman or the president gets up and and uh here is the
00:23:30
all black team to to South Africa 1970 you and of course my name was uh alphabetically right down the
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bottom so it might have taken a while to come out but eventually I was named were
00:23:45
you expecting to be named no I I wasn't I I knew I'd um made a bit of an
00:23:50
impression but um you know i' I'd um I was hoping to be named I I played all
00:23:57
right in the trial and um but um I'd had my hand stood on during the final trial and of course
00:24:07
when my name was read out everyone came and started shaking that hand and know I
00:24:11
was I thought gez I hope I haven't broken it fortunately I hadn't broken it
00:24:16
but uh yeah the handshakes and of course you know the the New Zealand men's handshake sometimes they they grip It
00:24:24
Like a Rock oh my God yeah imagine Colin me when it's already sore um how many how
00:24:31
many Pacifica or were there before you well there had been a few um but very few um the Solomon Brothers back in the
00:24:41
1930s Frank and Dave who both were Pon players by the way and um Walter batty he was a a tongen back in the
00:24:50
1930s um Arthur Jennings uh he was in the 67 or blacks a Fijian um extract and um and then I think George
00:25:02
scut might have been just before me so there were very very few you know over um many decades so so you know to
00:25:12
finally be named and particularly uh in the team to go to South Africa was was sort of History
00:25:18
making yeah I I had no idea about this until I um yeah flick through your book but um yeah this is disgraceful you you
00:25:25
were granted um what was it called like on honorary white status honorary white status huh what what's that yeah how did
00:25:35
that make you feel at the time wow I thought you why why I know what I am you could
00:25:44
you're just trying to um justify uh your abhorrent um political system of apti
00:25:50
but that's what you want to call me go ahead I'm I'm an all black and I'm I'm
00:25:56
samon and I'm going to uh doing my best yeah being the only some on the the old
00:26:02
black team like you didn't feel any different in a you you just felt like one of the one of the guys oh well initi
00:26:08
yeah I'm still 19 years old Dom and um you know playing alongside guys who are
00:26:14
absolutely idolized for for you know the previous decade so so you know really worried about that whether whether I'd
00:26:23
measure up or not and and then of course going to a part South Africa um just wondering how how you're going
00:26:31
to be treated so when when the plane touched down in Joe BG I've told a story
00:26:35
many times I I actually had a panic attack and I I I didn't want to get off the plane and and I virtually had to be
00:26:42
coaxed off off the plane by uh by my teammates uh and and you know took one step after the
00:26:50
other and before I knew it um you know out on the field scoring a try and I was an nor
00:26:58
what did that panic attack look like ah extreme uh fear um sweating um just absolutely tense uh
00:27:13
awful I feel like when you talk about it you almost um go back there being that 19y old kid absolutely yeah yeah yeah
00:27:21
yeah something I didn't think about before like when I asked you if you if you felt like a like a minority or an
00:27:25
outsider on the team yeah I can't imagine the Imposter syndr you know being a 19-year old kid and you're
00:27:30
playing with um you these these men that you grew up like watching on TV or listening to on the radio or whatever it
00:27:35
happened to be well as mentioned I I was very shy at that stage and and um just just being in the company of of Colin Ms
00:27:43
and Brian La hor and and so many of the other all black Legends was was daunting
00:27:49
uh for me and and you know unable to string two sentences together so I remember rooming with Chris LW uh
00:27:59
several times on that tour and the the conversation was very very limited you between us because I was so
00:28:09
quiet and and uh yeah so oh that's adorable can you remember your first meeting with um like laor and mes well I
00:28:19
I I didn't know how to address either of them I knew BJ um that that was his
00:28:25
nickname and and U Pine tree or Mr mes or Sir Colin or Mr tree Mr tree yeah so yeah it was pretty pretty uh difficult
00:28:39
and did you work out at the time like I know um you know JY JY gym workouts weren't really necessarily or weight
00:28:44
training wasn't really a thing back then but your legs were huge yeah well I I um
00:28:49
when I was at mags manab gramar um the coach Eugene cheran uh he was a real um supporter and adherent of of um weight
00:29:00
training as as a um as as a Training Method and um so we had a weightlifting room at Mount Albert grar and I I was
00:29:09
down there frequently um I I got reasonably reasonably strong um and and um yeah yeah your legs were your legs
00:29:20
were massive they're like tree trunks well yeah my legs I guess that that that's a Pacifica Island
00:29:28
thing you know um heavily muscled and and generally you know fast twitched fiber and um so so that lzy came
00:29:39
naturally um but yeah I ended up with with these big thighs yeah they came in handy too um can you remember what it
00:29:47
was like putting the old black Jersey on for the first time what was the what was
00:29:50
the process were you presented it by like the team manager or the coach like they are now or yeah yeah we were um
00:29:58
presented it in that manner and um and and oh it was just awesome I I remember going back to the room and um just being
00:30:08
absolutely all struck and and before I knew it I was I was out on the field and I've got to say I was really
00:30:16
fortunate it was uh not not a very difficult team we were playing but the first time I got the ball I had a a
00:30:23
clear run of about maybe 25 30 m to to score try and uh you I could run I I knew I was quick so I I ran as fast as I
00:30:34
could and put the ball down and um and then later in the game I I scored a second try so off you off the field you
00:30:42
go and um they're patting you on the back and saying you're one of us now
00:30:45
mate good boy you're an all black oh thank heavens you know yeah I'm accepted
00:30:52
been long now um yeah that was a yeah the your memories of the game like what was the crowd like was it a massive
00:30:58
Crowd Oh it's I I don't even remember too much about the crowd it was only it
00:31:04
was called the Paul Roose 15 at a place called Bethlehem of all places and and um uh relatively small crowd but but the
00:31:14
ground seemed to be full um yeah so so uh that that's certainly what I remember
00:31:21
and and the crowd was um you were quite well received by the crowd like there was no there's no booing or anything
00:31:26
because of your skin color no no um but with apartheid what what tended to happen was that the the black and
00:31:33
colored people had to sit at the end ends of the ground um and and of course the the whites were were in the grand
00:31:40
stands and whatever so that that was a bit difficult to take um but of course when you scored a try
00:31:49
it was right in front of um your fans you know the the colored and and black community of South Africa so um was
00:31:58
interesting yeah it's um it's amazing so it's it's only really recent history but
00:32:03
it's yeah shocking to think that this was going on yeah it is shocking and um
00:32:09
you know to see um what happened in South Africa you know Nelson Mandela was was still on Robin Island in prison uh
00:32:18
during those tours you know 1970 and 1976 so to see what happened we we had that awful 1981 tour here in New Zealand
00:32:29
and um I think uh that made people really sit up and take notice about uh you know kiwis weren't going to tolerate
00:32:37
it anymore and um and then of course Mandela was was um released from prison and and ended up becoming the the
00:32:47
president as as we all know oh one of one of the icons um one of the world icons of the last 100 years absolutely
00:32:53
so yeah so so in in in 1970 when when you're 19 and you go over there as an all black are you even aware of who
00:32:59
Nelson Mandela is I I like to think I I you know I I was a law student and I was
00:33:06
hopefully starting to become more worldly about um more knowledgeable about um things but um we we'd heard
00:33:15
about um you know 1960 and the shville um Massacre and um 1970 there there was trouble before our tour um
00:33:28
so I like to think I I you know knew knew a bit and so 1981 that's the year your
00:33:36
your book came out um that's also yeah the year of the um the spring B Tour to
00:33:40
New Zealand that you're talking about I I was um like seven eight years old at
00:33:45
the time so I've got very limited memories of it but um yeah what what are what are your Recollections of it that
00:33:50
period of time well that that obviously divided um kiwis uh awfully really and and even even amongst families you know
00:33:59
some people were for it some were against it some people felt that um um you know politics shouldn't be bought into
00:34:10
sport um but I I think from my perspective it became very clear that that um that uh simple simple uh
00:34:22
explanation was wasn't going to wash that that um and I think we all realize
00:34:27
that um you know life uh is is politics it's sport it's everything and and
00:34:33
you've got to you've got to you know take it all into account hey thanks for sharing those
00:34:38
insights so um a um yeah paint a picture of what an old blacks tour looked like in the 1970s so you play the game then
00:34:46
then then what do you do um you out on the beers yeah pretty much uh back back in those days um you
00:34:56
know you you more this had to make your own fun after a game you'd have a beer
00:35:01
and and um jump on the bus go back to the hotel and and get into the team room and and um i' i' I used to take my
00:35:12
guitar on on tour and and uh we'd have a sing song and and uh probably few more beers and then go go
00:35:21
for dinner um but back back in those days you know going to nightclubs and what ever uh wasn't wasn't really um the
00:35:30
done thing so much I often used to just settle back into the team room and uh and and get the guitar out and we' we'd
00:35:38
sing our way into the evening and and um have a few more beers and and what are you eating like the day of a the day of
00:35:45
a game what are you like is it steak and EES for breakfast or well yes it was it it it seemed to be a
00:35:53
staple that that you had a steak uh frequently um too late you know maybe 2 and a half hours before before the game
00:36:04
and you you'd burp your way through the first half and then the energy would would
00:36:09
kick in in the second half you know and did you get paid like per DMS or anything like like a day you get paid a
00:36:16
couple of like dollars a day well we did yeah it might have been I I think in in
00:36:22
South Africa 1970 it was around 50 a day so we'd line up at the end of the uh the week and um and you'd have to
00:36:30
sign for 10 R50 which was worth about you know four or five dollars new New Zealand and you know I mean it didn't
00:36:40
buy much so yes so everyone had jobs back in New Zealand so you had to take like months and
00:36:47
months off work at a time yeah what used to happen in the in the so-called amateur era was that the clubs
00:36:55
would would rally round and and um they do some fundraising for you and then they present you with this this gift um
00:37:05
take away to but for those who who were living uh for working and and uh farming
00:37:12
and that sort of thing I mean you you had to uh keep the home fires burning and frequently um the wives and families
00:37:20
had to um cover for you um you had no income coming in other than your 10 R50 a week which wasn't going to go very far
00:37:31
so um you know I mean that that's what ultimately um turned the game towards
00:37:39
professionalism the fact that um there were too many people having to make um two bigger sacrifices while the rugby
00:37:46
Unions would would generally um reap all the rewards and and uh and the players Next To None and how did you communicate
00:37:56
like back home with your wife and family at that time is you writing letters or is it the occasional phone call writing
00:38:01
letters yeah phone calls were real expensive right they were real expensive initially and and um yes so were so so
00:38:09
largely writing letters and postcards wow has you did your wife keeping in them yeah we we've still got some some
00:38:16
of the letters unreal yeah yeah yeah I I've tended to be a bit of a hoarder of
00:38:22
of uh you know those sorts of things and memorabilia and and photos and and scrapbooks and you name it oh that's so
00:38:32
cool what have you what have you got what have you got in your what are your favorite bits of memorabilia you got
00:38:36
your first all black all black Jersey uh yep yep got that um oh as as mentioned I
00:38:43
I we we swap swap jerseys after games with with your opponents I've got a a bit of a collection at home and and um
00:38:51
I've donated a lot of jerseys to the ponsonby club I've I've donated uh
00:38:56
jerseys and and and Blazers and what have you to various other organizations and um yeah so so um what I've always
00:39:06
believed is it's it's pointless keeping them in a draw somewhere you know
00:39:11
just give them to people or or let them display them and and um let people enjoy
00:39:17
them yeah now let's talk about some um some of your teammates and um in particular some incidents as well so
00:39:23
Colin Ms you were you were in that game where this is in like New Zealand be folklore he broke his arm and kept on
00:39:29
playing yeah is that right have I got the story right yep yep yep yes you have what what happened what's oh well
00:39:36
someone obviously um he feels he he was targeted they they got him down the bottom of a rock and and stood on his
00:39:45
arm and um broke it and and uh of course he he's a very tough man was a very
00:39:51
tough man and uh refused to leave the field and and and then of course um during the rest of the tour he came
00:40:01
had to come back way too early to start playing again and and he did so with the
00:40:06
help of a uh some sort of arm arm guard and um yeah but uh he he was I've got to say
00:40:15
he was playing absolutely magnificent rugby uh when when that happened and I I still believe to this day if he'd have
00:40:22
stayed fit uh we' have we' have won the series yeah and um oh Keith Murdoch he
00:40:28
was a teammate and and a friend of yours were you were you on the tour where he got sent home yes I was yeah what was
00:40:35
the story with that for anyone that doesn't remember myself included well we we just had a a great
00:40:41
victory over Wales at at Carter Farms Park and um um L late in the evening there hadd been a lot of um ill will I
00:40:51
suppose expressed during the evening uh the fact that um you know we we' beaten
00:40:57
Wales and and that Wales team was was the uh the bulk of the the team that had beat New Zealand in
00:41:06
1971 for the Lions and they they believed they were going to do it again they they very nearly did I think the
00:41:14
school was 1916 but um we came through and one so there was lots of um anti feeling during the evening um Keith uh
00:41:25
later in the evening went went to the kitchen looking for some food before he went to bed and uh he was um confronted
00:41:33
by a security guard and they ended up having a bit of a tet and then uh um Keith decided that uh it needed to go
00:41:46
further so he he B he bopped apparently bopped the uh security guard and of course uh as a result of that he ended
00:41:55
up getting sent home but um the next day um things had supposedly um been resolved and settled and and um
00:42:07
Keith was staying on on the tour and then uh when we went to go to training on the Monday morning um Ernie Todd who
00:42:15
was a manager jumped on the bus and announced to us all that Keith was going home and
00:42:20
um uh all the boys jumped out of the bus again and you know but pretty much by then
00:42:27
um the the die was cast and and he didn't come back to New Zealand he he he he stopped off uh in
00:42:37
Australia somewhere up in Darwin I think he might have got off the plane and uh and and then made his life uh out in the
00:42:45
Outbacks of Australia yeah sort of spent the rest of his life in hiding did you did you keep in touch or did you ever
00:42:50
speak to him again or no I didn't no um it's a very sad story eh well it is yeah
00:42:55
um but um having said that he he was always the type of guy who liked um going off by
00:43:05
himself fishing or hunting or that sort of thing and and doing his own thing um so you know uh he might have ended up
00:43:15
doing that back in New Zealand or but that that that was generally his his lifestyle oh I like being a loner yeah
00:43:22
but pretty much yeah so he he was going to be S was he yeah I suppose this is just speculating but do you think he was
00:43:29
scared of like coming home and facing the media or the music or I don't know I
00:43:33
I don't know what would have been in his is mine but um quite possibly he didn't
00:43:39
want to come home and have to face that yeah it's crazy to think like CU this is
00:43:44
pre- interet pre-social Media so it would have been just a few photographers with flash bulbs at the airport
00:43:49
potentially yeah that's right yeah very sad oh um I don't even know if you in
00:43:54
this game or not but um so Andy Hayden um I I uh wrote on my Instagram that you were coming in here today for a podcast
00:44:02
and um a good friend of mine Laura who's andri daughter Laura well um she she
00:44:06
said to say hi she said you were best man at at the wedding um you were Andy and Trisha's first flat mate one of
00:44:12
their flatmates um and you did a eulogy um were you were you in the game where he did the line out dive yeah yeah
00:44:20
what's what are your Recollections of that well my Recollections of it was that uh I didn't even see it and and I
00:44:28
was on the left wing which was the side where the line out took place and um I remember um when when the game was over
00:44:39
um got back into the changing room and and someone said did you see that and I said did I see what I just see Andy jump
00:44:49
out of the line out no no what happened I I hadn't even I had had no inkling
00:44:56
about what what had happened and uh and then of course all hell broke loose thereafter you could get away with stuff
00:45:05
back then you can't get away with anything now no no no yeah oh that's funny he's a good man eh yeah well and
00:45:13
Trisha were great great mates that we we lived together for four years back in the day and lesie and I bought a house
00:45:20
um over in um westm um Oban road back in the day and um Andy and Trish were were
00:45:27
our flat mates and um then we bought a place um down down where we are now by Cox Bay and Andy in game and live with
00:45:35
us for a uh oh maybe a couple of years before they went off to France yeah so you you retired at
00:45:42
28 was that was that old to retire back then or was that standard or was it young uh was your career cut short I'd
00:45:51
had that hip dislocation in um 1977 which was a year before and um it had become pretty apparent that my
00:45:59
place in the OR blacks was was under under severe strain and and threat and um so so I uh I pretty pretty much
00:46:10
decided that that was the end of my all black career i' had over 100 games for
00:46:14
the All Blacks at that stage and um with with the dislocation my speed had gone and you know wasn't very Elusive and um
00:46:23
so I I I knew time was up on the or black career but I I still played Club rugby and I still played for Oakland for
00:46:31
for a number of Seasons after that it it was a hell of a career um you just going through that book like um
00:46:39
yeah you were a big deal like you you were called later on like the Jon alomo of the 70s like um you were like proper
00:46:45
famous like for a time in the era like the most famous guy in New Zealand pretty much oh I don't know about that
00:46:50
but I I I certainly um you know Les and I couldn't go out anywhere without people coming up and and um you know
00:46:59
wanting autographs or selfies yeah well not so much selfies and those days no no
00:47:05
selfies but um I'd I'd frequently um end up somewhere and and someone um would
00:47:12
bow me up in a corner somewhere and lesie would be over the other side of the room and she'd be looking at me and
00:47:17
I'd be looking back at her and and um I I was too polite actually D to to say to
00:47:24
people listen mate that's my girlfriend over there I've got to go or that's my
00:47:28
wife over there I've I've got to go um I was too polite and um yeah so it it uh
00:47:36
it it it was a real um um yeah yeah it's the sort of I suppose the downside of
00:47:43
Fame in a way or or is it just being do you think at the time for you it was being a
00:47:48
people pleaser and well was being a people pleaser but I I you wasn't um famous like Yono but um
00:47:58
yeah pretty people you know wanted wanted to come and say hello and and have a photo and um sign autographs and
00:48:06
all that sort of stuff you what's what what's it like when you go so you go
00:48:09
from um just being a regular at a school kid making the O at 19 blowing up being
00:48:14
a big star and then it sort of um yeah pet us off um was that transition like hard or was it quite enjoyable um well I
00:48:24
I like to think I I always uh kept my equilibrium my balance um and and just realizing that um you know Fame is
00:48:34
fleeting and um you know some people will love you some won't some will hate
00:48:39
you and um yeah so I've always been pretty philosophical really about life and I'm a liberan so you know balance is
00:48:49
is a key key word my my existence are you a horoscope guy oh didn't pick you to be a star sign guy
00:48:58
no I I read my horoscope from time to time do you oh that's awesome what was
00:49:04
it today oh I did read it did you actually yeah oh that's C up so you so you finished
00:49:13
playing rugby and then um yeah we sort of alluded before to the you the pressure of like guys finishing rugby
00:49:19
now and just the the whole it lives in their life but um I suppose in a sense for you back then it was kind of a
00:49:24
relief it's like right now I can sort of knuckle down and focus on my my law
00:49:27
career what sort of law were you doing oh I did mainly conveyancing you know buying and selling of houses and small
00:49:35
businesses um Estates when people pass on and um um yeah pretty much um the standard Fair of of a lawyer who doesn't
00:49:47
go to court oh and you did you run a motel for a while as well no we did we ran a a motel um uh not very
00:49:55
successfully happened to coincide with the share market crash of 1987 yeah so um that that that uh provided a few uh
00:50:07
life's lessons shall I say yeah no one no one gets through life without going
00:50:12
through some sort of um adversity a no they don't and and I've got to say that
00:50:17
um while it was tough going through it at the time um I look back now and say well yeah I'm I'm probably pleased that
00:50:24
I I had to go through that because you realize um you know life life isn't all
00:50:31
Wine and Roses oh what happened did you lose your dough oh we lost we lost a fair amount of dough um but fortunately
00:50:39
we we escaped uh by the skin of our teeth and um we're able to to carry on and and um you know build up again and
00:50:49
you ended up um the president of the New Zealand Rugby Union in 2011 what what did that job entail what did that mean
00:50:56
uh president's ly a figurehead uh role um that sounds like my sort a job so so generally the one who will
00:51:05
will shake the hands and present the cup and and give the give the nice speeches
00:51:11
and and um welcome welcome people so so that that that was nice yeah enjoy that must have been a good that was a hell of
00:51:18
a tournament that must have been a great time yeah it was and and um you know you
00:51:23
you do two years as vice president and and two years as president so I I sat around the board table for four years um
00:51:31
had a pretty interesting uh time you know 2009 to 2012 why was that an interesting time oh just just well the
00:51:39
World Cup being in in New Zealand and um co coinciding uh with with you know an up up turn and in all black fortunes
00:51:49
really yeah CU after 2007 Les and I um we led a black supporters party in 2007 so we were at at um Cardiff the day the
00:52:02
French beat us in 2007 so that was a very um dim sad day yeah can you remember um yeah as a
00:52:13
proud ex or black like what what you thought at that time like did you think CU back then we had a sort of a history
00:52:19
of um like sacking a coach a coach had one shot at a World Cup yeah and and Graham Henry sort of bucked that Trend
00:52:25
at 20 7 can you remember how you thought do did you think get get rid of him he's
00:52:29
had his shot or were you sort of like oh give him another turn it was amazing what happened well well it was and and
00:52:35
he he would acknowledge that himself um and and you know uh that was at the time
00:52:43
when players were taken out of um Super Rugby uh to to have rest periods and what have you and I don't think
00:52:52
ultimately um that that suited the team or the place so probably paid the price for that um but as as you say um in
00:53:03
their wisdom new rugby decided that um Ted would stay on and um you know he he repaid that faith in in
00:53:13
2011 that that was a hell of a tournament hey what was it like being president because you must have like you
00:53:19
know the news that we were getting in the media you must have been getting that beforehand so you knew that Rich's
00:53:23
foot was was busted um you knew that Dan was no good you would have known all the
00:53:29
all the behind the scenes stuff it was a crazy time well it was and and um you know old
00:53:37
Beaver White baiting and and down on the W River and and you know being asked to
00:53:43
come come up to training and bring bring the white bait and and maybe be playing
00:53:47
in the F the World Cup final you know I mean that's folklore it's beautiful
00:53:53
stuff and to see it play out like that was was great great great to be part of it but um that that night at Eden Park
00:54:01
you know when everyone was quiet and and no one could speak and um Billy bont's
00:54:08
wife Hillary um was sitting beside Leslie my my wife and and she why is everyone gone quiet she
00:54:16
said Le he said oh they're nervous they're very we're all very nervous oh it was an awful game I
00:54:24
managed to buy um like because you had to go on a ballot to get the tickets and they were very hard to get I managed to
00:54:30
get ticket some tickets that came on sale in the last week they were really expensive too like 750 bucks each worst
00:54:35
investment of my life I mean it was a great game but it was awful it was an awful game to watch right well it was of
00:54:41
the seat stuff yeah the All Blacks didn't play their best rugby they' played their best rugby probably in the
00:54:47
semi-final yeah against Australia and and um and um yeah so so it was touch and go and um you know just a sheer
00:54:57
relief when that final whistle went so good and in 2018 you were made a sir um yeah yeah what was that like oh that
00:55:07
that that was um nice obviously um very humbled by it I I uh I remember getting the letter and and
00:55:19
and pushing it over to Li I said have a look at that and and she had a look and and then I said I can't accept it I
00:55:27
don't deserve that and um so we we put the letter away for a couple of weeks and um and then
00:55:36
you know you're thinking about it and and then you you come to the conclusion
00:55:41
well it's actually not only about you it's about uh the people who have helped
00:55:46
you there and um So eventually had to rethink and um then you think well you're going to disappoint a lot of
00:55:56
people if you don't accept it so um wrote back and and uh yeah so and then I
00:56:04
accepted it were you really not going to accept it yeah initially why oh I didn't
00:56:08
feel I i' I'd earned it and I'll tell you what can I just say you're a terrible sir as well whenever
00:56:14
anyone calls you sir Brian you correct them just call me BG call me BG don't
00:56:19
you well that's that's that's who I am what is it is that just like um a humble
00:56:25
humble some on thing oh it possibly is um no but I I've never tried to put myself on a pedestal
00:56:35
at all ever I I guess I don't particularly like people who do no that's fine but but you should
00:56:43
still um like own it like and embrace it if someone calls you s oh yeah well well
00:56:48
they're are you know formal functions where where it's appropriate and I'm I'm
00:56:53
happy enough in that setting but um just everyday life you know if you're at the
00:56:58
supermarket and someone comes up S Brian that's mate I'm B just now what can I do
00:57:05
for you actually um I had I had another sir um on the podcast a couple of weeks earlier um sir Peter Beck who set
00:57:14
company called Rocket L and he's exactly the same he's like Dom just call me Pete
00:57:17
call me Pete yet on the other hand there's um yeah another Peter on the podcast sir Peter leech oh yes um he he
00:57:24
insists that you call him sir Peter oh he's a great mate of mine too yeah um
00:57:30
IO who who went to the ceremony your wife yeah my wife um my my brothers um one of my sons I think was still
00:57:38
overseas playing rugby in France and and um um my sister uh yeah so CL close family it's pretty cool oh it was it was
00:57:50
um yeah and and um Dan Dan paty uh was the um person who who kned me so we we've got a special sort of bond in in
00:58:01
that regard yeah oh yeah you're you're in an out of government house all the
00:58:04
time yeah you and I were both um I think this is where we first sort of um got to
00:58:08
know each other we were both um ambassadors for the World Masters games and they were in New Zealand yes so
00:58:13
that's the um the one and only function I've been to government house for but
00:58:16
yeah you're a regular visitor there it's like it's like your third home away from
00:58:20
home well I've I've been there once or twice let's put it let's put it that way
00:58:24
um yeah 2018 you're big year for you so you made us sir um you also get inducted
00:58:28
into the world rugby Hall of Fame yeah that's cool well that was again you know
00:58:36
very nice occasion and um you invited to go across to to England to to receive it
00:58:43
um John eels was the um chair of the selection uh committee and um there I said Anna Richards was on the selection
00:58:52
committee so every time I see Anna I I give her a hug and and say thank you dear but but yeah ni nice uh Accolade
00:59:05
nice tribute to to have um you know after what such an enjoyable rugby career yeah and March oh actually March
00:59:14
this year earlier this year inducted into the Pacifica Hall of Fame yeah yeah on once again um you
00:59:22
know just I I don't do these things for for awards You Do It For the Love of it and um but but always
00:59:33
nice to to be uh honored and and recognized who else is in the Pacifica rugby hall of fame um we had a couple of
00:59:42
um um uh what do you call it um guys who who've passed on Peter FATZ and and um
00:59:51
and Jonah Jonah lomu no need to say his last name yeah we know George Smith the Australian and and um uh F far
01:00:05
FAS um and um one or two others yeah yeah I found this great photo online you that's um
01:00:13
yeah you and the big man Jonah where where where was that at um I couldn't tell you precisely where but
01:00:21
uh no no couldn't tell you um yeah did you have much to do with Jonah yeah well I I
01:00:29
coasted them for a couple of years at the Hurricanes I went down and Coast with um R muray go gos as we know and um
01:00:37
so had a couple of years coaching um Jonah we had a backline to die for um Christian Cullen Jonah tner um some Al
01:00:50
arir um Jason o' helerin um yeah the the names go on David hell David hallwell um
01:01:00
Jason spice um yeah so so but uh it must have been my coaching that we finished about eth or nth both both
01:01:10
years I was there so I I had to call it to a Hal oh I don't think yeah I don't
01:01:16
know what it was I was um you so I'm from um palis North so when Super Rugby
01:01:21
started um I was living in paly at the time so I'm A hurricane's tragic from
01:01:25
way back and I don't know what it is about them they always underperformed day but they were always the most
01:01:30
exciting team yeah it's um I don't know what it is either you know Wellington
01:01:36
for example um they used to win the the MPC once every I think they won it in 2000 they
01:01:46
might have won it in 1984 um every 15 or 16 years they seem to Spring to life and win it again and
01:01:55
then I don't know I I've I've always found uh there I say it Wellington players um
01:02:02
enjoy the game and I I think they enjoy uh the post game probably better than than most as well if you know what I
01:02:10
mean I don't say it lightly um and and I think It ultimately cost them yeah um how do you see rugby
01:02:19
evolving in suar in the Pacific Islands and what more can be done to support its
01:02:23
growth well as you've seen in recent years we we've set up Moana uh paf as as a rugby
01:02:33
franchise and Super Rugby and um that's a sort of thing uh that was required
01:02:39
back in 1995 as far as I'm concern and um you know I've I've been a a major
01:02:46
critic I suppose of world rugby from 95 when they left the whole of the Pacific Islands out of out of Super Rugby and um
01:02:57
you know back in those days Fiji made the quarterfinals of the World Cup in 1987 here in New Zealand and um our Manu
01:03:07
sore team I was part of the coaching uh group we we made the quarterfinals in in
01:03:13
91 and 95 and almost made them again in 99 so so when um rugby went professional
01:03:22
in 1995 to be told that um you you you ranked in the top seven or eight teams in the world that you're not part of the
01:03:30
mainstream of of professional rugby was absolutely ging and and upsetting and um
01:03:37
I I felt totally grieved and and so so many others did so then took from 95 to 2022 uh before we we managed to get a
01:03:48
team into Super Rugby and that that team obviously is um meant to feed uh particularly the national teams of of
01:03:57
Tonga and sore and and obviously the draw feed feed the Fijian national team and and that ultimately uh will lead to
01:04:07
to uh better outcomes for for those national teams yeah how did you feel when you heard Ari savier was going to
01:04:15
Mona Pacifica well that that that was uh great and great Testament to you know Michael Jones so Michael and I and
01:04:25
others um we've had a great uh Team of uh people working behind the scenes now
01:04:30
for a number of years uh to to get this thing off the ground and we faced I dare
01:04:37
I say it we faced lots of obstacles from um New Zealand Rugby and and some of the
01:04:42
franchises thinking that uh um you know we were going to be an impediment uh to to them um but fortunately uh We've now
01:04:52
Illustrated that that you know we can uh stand on our own own feet and um with with support from World rugby and and
01:05:01
with the government support and uh what have you um you know we we're reasonably
01:05:06
financially stable now geez I like how you um use your voice now um yeah like the the shy 19yearold
01:05:15
guy this guy this guy here with the thick black hair like what would what would he make of the the old BL sitting
01:05:21
in front of me now geez he'd be proud wouldn't he well when I when I uh I I I give a speech I I
01:05:30
say um I've got two philosophies on on public speaking um firstly uh one was uh
01:05:39
if if you're um uh talking while you uh no what is it if if my philosophy is uh if you're
01:05:51
eating uh and drinking um um you're talking too much no I forgot I forgotten my
01:06:05
philosophy and and the other was uh be sincere uh be brief be seated I like that yeah that's a good
01:06:15
one um what about outside of rugby what are your passions these days you're still like um as as anyone
01:06:23
would gather from this chat that doesn't know the um Subban story like um you
01:06:27
know you're deeply deeply deeply entrenched in rugby um yeah what what brings you to outside of that oh I've
01:06:34
I've always enjoyed golf over the years um any good no no my my limbs uh my limbs don't really allow me much uh
01:06:44
golfing time now but I I take part in Social bowls uh we we have a a rugby bows um Tournament down in Mount mongui
01:06:55
every February so um we're planning to head down there again um or late late
01:07:01
January actually this year um to to play that and um but La larly family things um you know with 15 grandchildren we
01:07:10
we're busy and and constantly you know following the the kids to see what they're doing picking them up and uh
01:07:18
babysitting and and um really enjoying all that and and um you know with the barbarians uh Club um lots of uh
01:07:29
activities go on there and you know in support of rugby um I ran a rugby Academy at Mount Alber grar uh for for
01:07:38
many years so um mag mags are still uppermost in in my thoughts we've just had uh three of our grandchildren go
01:07:47
through Max um so that that's special um but other than that I I just enjoy um C
01:07:55
ing up with all mates and and uh family and yeah yeah brilliant um what are some
01:08:02
of the biggest changes um good and bad that you've seen in New Zealand over your
01:08:06
life um like well well particularly I guess as it relates to U Pacifica people um as
01:08:16
I mentioned used to be um totally unfashionable to be an Islander in in this country and Dawn raids and um you
01:08:26
know laborers and um uh the The View that um you know troublemakers get drunk and fight and all the rest of it what
01:08:37
what we're now seeing of course is in every uh sphere of life um sporting um
01:08:44
uh the arts and culture um politics local body uh politics uh rugby coaching administration of rugby um pacif is
01:08:57
really well represented now in all those areas so um that that gives me a great great deal of pleasure really yeah yeah
01:09:07
we've come a long way yeah yeah um what would you say the most important lessons
01:09:11
you've learned over your 74 years um oh the importance of relationships I think building good
01:09:20
relationships uh with people and and and um just treating people how you would want to be treated
01:09:27
yourself and and being being respectful um I I en enjoy um having fun uh I I enjoy singing and and playing the guitar
01:09:42
and um all all those sorts of things I love music U music music's been a huge
01:09:49
tonic uh there I said in in my life and um whenever you're feeling a bit trouble
01:09:55
you know you just uh turn on the music and it relaxes you and makes you feel good yeah but but the relationships and
01:10:04
and you know I mentioned before my my wife and family Paramount in that what's
01:10:11
what are you into Elvis Englebert yeah well two of the absolute Legends and I could pick it straight away Elvis and
01:10:21
Englebert well Elvis and Englebert and Tom Jones and and the Beatles and and uh I love The Beetles yeah Neil Diamond you
01:10:29
know all all that 60s and70s abber and you name it but back in the day you know talking about these we we would' start
01:10:39
uh uh with the alphabet um yes what what song begins with an A and then you play a song b and someone
01:10:49
would come up with a and we go right through the alphabet and then you know you might have started at 8 8:00 p.m.
01:10:55
and it's only 1 1:00 a.m. okay let's start again but did you did you ever admit to
01:11:02
Colin Ms that you were a fan of ever oh he he probably heard that I bet listened to it out on the
01:11:10
farm him and stand yeah probably probably um if you could go back in time and give advice to your younger self
01:11:15
what would it what would it be from the perspective of a 74 year old man um i' I'd largely do things pretty much
01:11:24
as as I've done them um it's going all right yeah yeah I'm I'm um pretty pretty
01:11:31
proud about the way I've Liv my life really and and at this stage of life you
01:11:37
you can well you you're forced to look back because there's not too much to go
01:11:42
if if you know what I mean um in terms of time do you think about that do you oh well there I said this this week I've
01:11:49
lost two of two of my mates and um you know and and when that happens it just brings it so so close to home um yeah so
01:11:59
that's that that's always sad and um you know looking back at some of the names
01:12:04
you mentioned and Andy Hayden great great mate now departed and um well even Jonah Sid gang Jonah um you you name it
01:12:15
um so many John mlin is is one of my old black teammates just passed away the other day and uh you know sincere
01:12:23
condolences to Linda and and the family yeah sorry to hear that well geez I'm 51 now and it's at the point where
01:12:31
I'm getting invited to more funerals than like 21st yeah well it happens doesn't it
01:12:36
yeah it does happen yeah so yeah yeah does does it just of crystallize just how you know how limited time
01:12:43
is well time goes by so quick and and I I guess if there is a a message uh to to
01:12:50
make the most of every day and and um I I've always been a bit a goal Setter you
01:12:56
know try and set set goals even you know many little goals like um uh cutting the
01:13:02
heads or or whatever at home and and weeding that part of the Garden or whatever just do it and and get it done
01:13:11
and then uh sit back and look at it and enjoy you're always in the garden I always see you out there well I love
01:13:19
getting out in the yard and just you know fing away yeah what about um biggest adversity uh or adversities
01:13:28
professional and personal that you've gone through um well at that period when
01:13:32
we owned the motel was was pretty pretty taxing but um no no just uh I've been
01:13:40
pretty fortunate really so far about health issues I I did have a a health issue you know about six months ago and
01:13:49
um and and perhaps a message to to men related to my prostate and um and uh just urging men to to go and get their
01:14:00
blood tests regularly and and check their PSA levels because uh sometimes they can get away on you yeah yes so you
01:14:10
mentioned this to me just before we came into the room here so I don't know if
01:14:12
you want to elaborate on it or not but yeah you had your prostate removed yeah yeah I did are you good at getting like
01:14:17
regular health checks and updates I am actually yeah I've I've um you know how
01:14:23
some men can be a bit sto about those sort of your generation was the worst yeah well I've I've never been like that
01:14:30
I've always and and to be fair I I um I one of my doctors was was Dr Lloyd Drake
01:14:38
um dur during my playing career and um you know he he was a great um supporter of of mine and and made sure uh that
01:14:49
that um you know I was well well looked after and all all those things were checked
01:14:55
so you yeah so you caught it there was a problem with the prostate but you caught
01:14:58
it early yeah yeah early detection is K well early detection um it it had some cancer in it and and dare I say it and
01:15:07
um um yeah the surgeon is is uh he's he's confident that that um it's been
01:15:15
caught early enough but who knows I mean Dom um it's it's a lottery uh really I I
01:15:24
think and and I was just talking um my mate Brad Johnson um texted me just yesterday about um John mclin's passing
01:15:35
um it's a lottery as I say to him might if your numbers up your numbers up and
01:15:40
that that's essentially it um so you have to be philosophical about it and I
01:15:45
am well I mean no one gets that alive do they no one gets out of life no yeah oh
01:15:50
you mentioned um texting before yeah you're very active on your phone like I
01:15:53
just I it this up through through text how do you cope with technology and everything have you found it hard to
01:15:59
keep up with everything or you do okay or you rely on the grand kidss I I do okay and and I I like to try things but
01:16:07
you have to rely on my my kids and my my grandkids to some degree uh but but I enjoy you know I'm I'm on Facebook uh
01:16:15
pretty regularly and and um Instagram and um all all the other um apps that that uh allow people to communicate okay
01:16:25
yeah but it must be so hard to keep up though because it's just been so much so
01:16:28
much change that you've seen over your lifetime especially I guess in the last
01:16:31
like 20 years or so yeah lot lot lots of change and particularly in the technological um space uh you know back
01:16:40
in the day um you know we used to get our our um we we uh use a Dictaphone machine and and um and then you you'd
01:16:50
give the tape uh to to your your secretary and then she'd type it out and if there was a mistake and and
01:16:57
particularly being in the law you know if if you if you got a letter um the process was you read it and and then um
01:17:07
uh dictate a a reply and then send it to the secretary and and back it it come and you'd have a look at it and if there
01:17:14
was a mistake you send it back and so so the whole process of dealing with one letter was about you know three days
01:17:21
then it had to go go through the the mail so back then you you had time to think
01:17:27
but nowadays everything is so instantaneous uh that that you know life is a thousand miles an hour yeah and
01:17:36
people expect to reply straight away yeah they do they do yeah um what are you most grateful for at this stage of
01:17:43
your life oh I I think I've made it pretty clear that um very grateful for for my wife for my family um and and and
01:17:53
for rugby I mean Rugby's given me so so much um um all these wonderful experiences great great friends and and
01:18:03
um uh places uh visited um experiences that other people you know going going to Buckingham Palace and um me meeting
01:18:13
the queen and and um you know uh open heart surgery um in South Africa with um Marius Barnard who was a brother of
01:18:23
Christian Barnard um the the heart transplant um man and um things like that you know sitting
01:18:33
sitting up on on the bench uh with a judge in in a partite South Africa and and uh you know here here's a guy with
01:18:42
with supposedly colored skin um sitting on on the bench with the judge and and the judge asking the council to address
01:18:52
the court pleas in in English so so Mr Williams can understand he was addressing the court
01:18:59
in in Africans so so that poor fellow I don't know whether he won his case or not yeah
01:19:06
well I yeah I forgot about the visit to Buckingham Palace what was what was the um what was your experience with the
01:19:11
queen oh just just very polite and and Charming um just just to be able to meet her and and Prince Phillip and uh
01:19:21
princess an and um yeah no very very special and and humbling really you realize that and and you know
01:19:32
particularly I think back to um going to the movies on a Saturday afternoon when
01:19:38
I was you know between 5 and 10 years old and and everyone back in those days had to stand up for the playing of of
01:19:47
the national anthem which was God Save Our Queen um that that's the way it was
01:19:52
in the movies and and and um so so you know Queen Elizabeth II has been such a huge uh part of my life and and just
01:20:03
absolutely uh adored um what what she was able to achieve in in her uh long long Reign yeah there's Traditions like
01:20:12
that that you you forget about I didn't know about the standing up for the national anthem at the movie theater but
01:20:16
I yeah I suppose also like travel to these tours like did you have to dress up in suits for the plane ride and
01:20:22
things um I remember an aviation where people used to dress up and go on planes yeah I I think we did to be honest no
01:20:29
t-shirts and jeans no but but um you could get on on on the plane and and you know change but then you had to hang
01:20:38
your hang your number ones up but you had to have your number ones available for when you arrived at the your
01:20:44
destination so um yeah all those uh th those habits and functions us used to take place if you could relive any one
01:20:55
day of your life over again what would it be um you got to say your wedding day you're going to get in so much trouble
01:21:01
if you don't say your wedding day well I I I loved my wedding day and and as I I
01:21:08
say I love my wife and and um we we still get on great but um if I could relive something
01:21:19
um there's not too many things really I I I'm I'm pretty satisfied with um you
01:21:26
know how my life has gone so far and i' I've said to my wife you know often that
01:21:32
if it ended tomorrow it'll be great or not not not no I don't want wish it to happen no I
01:21:41
don't want it to happen tomorrow but but if it did then I'd settle for that yeah
01:21:46
yeah God it sad it has to end though at some point yeah it is sad um but by the same token um as you ate
01:21:55
uh you you do start to get tired and and um you know I've got arthritis right
01:22:01
through my my body and um so every day you you feel it and and so so there'll
01:22:09
come a point in time where I I can't um get around and and um so so you know as as uh we get older
01:22:21
we we hear about some of our our friends and and uh colleagues who've been struck
01:22:26
down with things and and and their lives have have just changed forever dementia
01:22:33
hits and um or or you know can't can't move anymore can't can't drive anymore
01:22:41
and um you know people uh their whole lives are just turned upside down so so for the moment I I'm not in that
01:22:50
category so I'm I'm eternally grateful for that oh you're you're in great nck
01:22:54
you drove drove in here today sharp as a tech um your memor is great yeah well well my my long-term memor is great I I
01:23:04
I've probably forgotten what I had for lunch oh no no I haven't no remember
01:23:09
what I had for lunch I'm the same like there's um yeah there's really important
01:23:13
things that I I forget day to day yet I can remember the number I had like growing up when I was a kid yeah yeah
01:23:19
it's crazy um how do you view your legacy and um you know what do you people will remember about you
01:23:27
um I think the thing uh that that I'd like people to remember is loyalty um loyalty um uh to to my uh wife and
01:23:38
family loyalty uh to my schools uh loyalty obviously to my Rugby Club ponsonby um loyalty to um um Oakland and
01:23:50
and or loyalty to Manu sore um just someone uh who who people can count on really that's what I'd like to be
01:24:01
remembered for I don't think that's going to be an issue um that that's the guy I know it's
01:24:07
quite funny so the you know the um that eight years in the old blacks that sort of like I suppose defined your life in a
01:24:12
way but then like I'm old as [ __ ] I'm 51 years old and I don't even remember you
01:24:17
as an all black but um I just yeah I know you as this kind loyal man that's um that's lived this life of service
01:24:25
well thanks for saying that um you service I guess is a um a quality or or trait of of pacif people um so so yeah I
01:24:40
I I've always uh felt the need to to you know serve really serve the school serve
01:24:48
the family serve uh the club um yeah I would think so much for coming on the podcast
01:24:56
today yeah I really appreciate it no it's it's been a pleasure and when when
01:25:01
I get the opportunity uh to to reminisce and and reflect on on things I I always
01:25:08
uh I enjoy it and and you know you you send sent me out of here with a big buzz oh amazing oh likewise may I call you
01:25:16
sir Brian oh you can call me sir Brian call me call me what you like do sir Brian Williams BG
01:25:25
um thank you for being my mate and thanks for coming on the podcast actually um do you want to sing us out
01:25:30
on the podcast oh what you love me tnder what do you what do you got Please Release Me um
01:25:38
please release me let me go yeah I should have got you to bring your guitar yeah yeah uh or tin
01:25:46
guitars what you want what you want oh he's doing requests Dancing Queen oh I
01:25:51
don't know that one um something by the king maybe the king oh us won't you let me be Ling teddy
01:26:04
bear put a chain around my neck lead me anywhere or won't you let me be or won't
01:26:10
you let me be your teddy bear well I don't want to be a tiger tigers play too rough I don't want to be
01:26:21
a lion lions the kind you love know won't you let me be your teddy bear put a chain around my neck and Lead
01:26:37
me anywhere oh let you be oh let him be your teddy bear oh let him be your teddy
01:26:48
bear I want you to be my dirty bear my God I'm going to I'm going to remember this
01:26:56
moment forever that was awesome that's a smooth voice oh well it's had lots of
01:27:02
practice let me tell you it's had lots of practice oh that voice isn't going
01:27:07
anywhere you still got it thanks mate J