00:00:00
Would it be fair to say like this year
00:00:01
you've probably been one of the most
00:00:03
disliked people in New Zealand? Hannah
00:00:05
rips up the um treaties principal bill
00:00:08
and then they perform a hacker in front
00:00:09
of you. What what's that like from your
00:00:11
perspective?
00:00:11
>> It's saddening. Uh because
00:00:15
>> for you personally like being the the
00:00:16
the you person that hacker was aimed at.
00:00:19
Is that embarrassing?
00:00:20
>> Oh, it's not embarrassing. It's
00:00:21
embarrassing for them.
00:00:22
>> What about Chloe?
00:00:24
>> Yeah.
00:00:25
>> Do you like each other?
00:00:26
>> I think it's a sad situation. I I I've
00:00:29
had a good relationship with Chloe for
00:00:31
most of the time. I I think she's
00:00:33
frankly hardened a bit after I
00:00:36
criticized her for chanting the, you
00:00:38
know, river to the sea thing. And for
00:00:39
some reason since that particular
00:00:41
incident, she's had a very different uh
00:00:45
tone on me, which is a shame.
00:00:47
>> On this on the school lunches, um
00:00:49
there's a quote from you. Sushi is woke.
00:00:52
>> What does that mean?
00:00:53
>> You know what? I'm I'm just going to
00:00:55
tell you.
00:00:56
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:58
the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:00
there's a top performance in New
00:01:01
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:03
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:05
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:07
Holland one in To.
00:01:12
Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
00:01:13
>> Top tier.
00:01:14
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:16
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:18
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:20
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:01:22
Maximize. Generate. Putting performance
00:01:25
first.
00:01:31
David Seymour, welcome back to my
00:01:33
podcast. It's great to be back and um I
00:01:36
just looked at the way you've grown how
00:01:38
long you stuck at stuck at it and now
00:01:40
you've got this huge audience and Flash
00:01:42
Studio. You even got you're literally up
00:01:44
at neon lights. Good for you.
00:01:46
>> You asked you asked me to come back on
00:01:48
this time.
00:01:49
>> Yeah.
00:01:50
>> I got a phone call out of the blue. I
00:01:51
said, "What did I do to deserve this
00:01:53
phone call?" And can you remember what
00:01:54
your line was?
00:01:55
>> Yeah. said your rating.
00:01:58
>> Yeah. So, just to time stamp it, but
00:01:59
last time you came on the podcast, it
00:02:01
was um early in 2023, actually the week
00:02:04
that Justindra Adun stood down.
00:02:07
>> Yeah.
00:02:07
>> Um since then, uh lots going on
00:02:11
professionally and personally, ACT's
00:02:12
biggest election result, October 2023.
00:02:14
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:15
>> And uh on a personal perspective, you've
00:02:18
got engaged.
00:02:19
>> Yeah. Well, I figured the the real the
00:02:21
real truth is it's not just that you're
00:02:22
rating. I thought I I got some content
00:02:24
for you and I thought, you know,
00:02:25
podcasters need content. I try to help
00:02:27
people where I can. And it's always fun
00:02:28
to chat to you.
00:02:29
>> I I was thinking maybe it's like um an
00:02:32
image rehabilitation thing or something
00:02:34
like it's Would it be fair to say like
00:02:36
this year you've probably been one of
00:02:38
the most I don't know disliked people in
00:02:41
New Zealand and New Zealand politics?
00:02:43
>> You know, I I think that probably is
00:02:45
fair if you just look at the numbers of
00:02:47
uh people that like and dislike a
00:02:49
politician. Bear in mind there's still a
00:02:51
lot of people who uh support me, but it
00:02:54
makes me overall polarizing. You know,
00:02:56
I've probably got the biggest group on
00:02:58
either side of that. Um there's a lot of
00:03:00
politicians. Uh about 40 new politicians
00:03:03
are elected every election and a lot of
00:03:06
them uh go through and don't get known.
00:03:09
Um I certainly haven't had that problem.
00:03:12
Uh but yeah, it's fair to say that I I
00:03:14
like to take on hard issues and I
00:03:17
thought, you know what, I I should call
00:03:19
Dom and and get on his podcast because
00:03:22
frankly, I want to talk through uh some
00:03:25
of the the issues that have cropped up
00:03:28
in the last um year or so. I think
00:03:30
podcast is a good uh environment to have
00:03:34
that discussion and say, "Look, if you
00:03:36
you know, if you like me, good on you.
00:03:38
If you don't, fair enough." Um, but I
00:03:41
find that there's actually a vacuum of
00:03:44
open discussion and a lot of people are
00:03:46
frustrated. A lot of people are turning
00:03:48
to podcasts around the world because
00:03:49
they don't trust what they're seeing in
00:03:51
the news. So, uh, let's see how we go.
00:03:54
>> Yeah.
00:03:55
Well, the issue that you got with my
00:03:57
podcast is I'm not I'm I'm I'm fairly
00:03:59
dumb. I'm not very politically savvy.
00:04:01
Um, so you're not going to get um
00:04:03
>> a lot of people say that about me,
00:04:06
>> but um my goal my goal with this is like
00:04:08
to um you know get to understand a
00:04:10
person and understand the way they think
00:04:12
through long form conversation and um
00:04:15
you know behind everyone's job there
00:04:16
there's a person. Um but I am keen to
00:04:19
get into some of the um some of the some
00:04:21
of the stuff. It's interesting like I'm
00:04:23
from like a media background where there
00:04:26
is a desperate need to be liked um
00:04:28
because you live and die by by your
00:04:29
ratings on radio so you need to be liked
00:04:31
and I suppose to a degree you're the
00:04:32
same like you need you need you need
00:04:34
name recognition and you need people to
00:04:35
like you in order to get reelected but
00:04:38
um the flip side of that is it's like
00:04:40
it's not nice when people hate you. So,
00:04:42
let let me ask you though um in in radio
00:04:45
and and that's your domain, but do you
00:04:48
need people to like you or do you need
00:04:50
people to to think that you're effective
00:04:52
and you you stand for something? Um,
00:04:55
personally, I don't mind so much I don't
00:04:57
have a need to be liked. Uh it's nice if
00:05:00
people like you, but um you know, you
00:05:03
don't go into politics to be popular.
00:05:04
It's a pretty big failure if you do. Uh
00:05:08
I go into politics because I think that
00:05:11
there are better ways to live and we
00:05:13
need to change some of our laws to do
00:05:15
it. Uh so there's a need to be I guess
00:05:18
respected as someone who's in it for the
00:05:20
right reasons and effective but not
00:05:21
necessarily liked. There's a difference
00:05:23
there.
00:05:23
>> Yeah. One of the the most popular
00:05:25
podcast guests I've had in between you
00:05:27
coming in now and our last chat was um
00:05:28
this woman called Tracy Chapman. Uh
00:05:30
Tracy Hickman. I think I sent you a a
00:05:32
clip from the podcast and
00:05:35
>> she had so much gratitude for it. She
00:05:37
got to die in May 2024 on her own terms.
00:05:40
>> Yeah.
00:05:40
>> Um you you must get a lot of like
00:05:42
messages like that from real life
00:05:43
examples of um people who have used that
00:05:45
bill.
00:05:46
>> Yeah, I do. It's I mean she was, you
00:05:49
know, a very special and spectacular
00:05:52
case and um I think the reason I always
00:05:55
thought the law would pass is that
00:05:56
people knew what they'd seen and I think
00:05:58
she kind of brought out a lot of the
00:05:59
rawness of that. So uh but I do I do get
00:06:03
notes. Um, I can think of a couple I've
00:06:05
had just in the last month. You know,
00:06:07
almost every couple of weeks, someone
00:06:08
will write and say, "I know someone that
00:06:11
um used it. Um, and uh, you know, we're
00:06:14
very grateful we got to uh have the the
00:06:17
choice and control and the dignity and
00:06:19
um, and the ability to plan. Um, someone
00:06:23
trying to think who messaged me just the
00:06:25
other day saying that they were on their
00:06:26
way to a sort of living wake. So, people
00:06:28
are now doing their funeral before they
00:06:31
die." Um, which you know is pretty cool
00:06:33
because I've always thought it would be
00:06:34
nice if the person could be there.
00:06:36
>> Well, that's what Tracy did. Um, even
00:06:38
though she was um incredibly unwell like
00:06:40
the the day before she went to Phar with
00:06:42
her sister and her partner and some
00:06:43
other family. Um, they went to karaoke
00:06:45
that um that night for a couple of songs
00:06:47
like um Staying Alive and I will
00:06:49
survive. And then um the morning of they
00:06:51
they drove to a beach which I won't name
00:06:54
with um the medical professional that
00:06:56
was administering the drugs and they
00:06:57
stopped by Wild Bean on the way and she
00:06:59
had some Whitaker's chocolate for
00:07:01
breakfast and um yeah she she got to you
00:07:03
know take some control back o over her
00:07:05
own life and sort of die the way that
00:07:07
she had lived her life
00:07:08
>> with dignity. If if it all ended for you
00:07:10
today is is that how you'd like to be
00:07:12
remembered as a politician?
00:07:14
>> Um it's it it's one thing uh and I'm I'm
00:07:18
very proud of it. Um, but I would like
00:07:21
to think it's it's part of a wider theme
00:07:24
of letting people live and in this case
00:07:26
die uh the way that they would like to
00:07:29
there's no shortage of politicians. I
00:07:32
know I've said this a few times, but
00:07:33
there's no shortage of politicians who
00:07:34
basically want to lead a tribe and have
00:07:36
everyone live according to the tribe.
00:07:38
The tribe has spoken. Uh I I want to try
00:07:42
and uh let a bit more light out and let
00:07:44
people live their own way so as not
00:07:46
harming someone else. So I I I hope that
00:07:48
that will be seen as an example of a
00:07:50
theme.
00:07:53
>> So at the time we're recording this,
00:07:55
it's uh what August 2025. So you've been
00:07:57
deputy prime minister of New Zealand for
00:07:59
3 months. Um what changes when you
00:08:01
become deputy prime minister? Does it
00:08:03
does it mean anything? What does it
00:08:04
mean?
00:08:05
>> It means everything and nothing. Um so
00:08:08
it means everything because uh it just
00:08:11
shows just about anything's possible in
00:08:13
this country. I say to kids, look, if
00:08:14
that guy could become deputy prime
00:08:15
minister, that's what you could do.
00:08:16
>> Meaning you.
00:08:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:19
>> So, um on the other hand, it it kind of
00:08:23
means nothing because my basic job is to
00:08:25
be the minister of regulation, be the MP
00:08:26
for EPSUM, lead the ACT party, all that
00:08:28
stuff stays the same. Where it's a
00:08:30
little bit different is if Chris goes
00:08:32
overseas, then I'm now the first in line
00:08:34
to be the acting PM. Uh which again
00:08:37
means everything and nothing. Uh in
00:08:39
theory, it's it's just a symbolic job.
00:08:42
Uh but if something goes really wrong
00:08:44
then you have to actually um be there
00:08:46
and and potentially make decisions if uh
00:08:49
you know things are are really really
00:08:51
drastic. Um like I mean not just any
00:08:53
decision but you know significant
00:08:54
decisions. Um and uh that's that's
00:08:57
always something to think about. Uh and
00:08:59
I I feel like I'm jinxed because uh so
00:09:02
far I've been acting for the crowd
00:09:04
strike um when those Chinese ships came
00:09:07
the floods in Nelson. Uh there was
00:09:09
something else. Oh, Israel and Iran
00:09:11
decided to fire missiles at each other.
00:09:13
So, it seems every time I'm acting PM,
00:09:15
something crazy happens.
00:09:17
>> Are there any good perks? Do you get a
00:09:18
nicer office? You have security detail.
00:09:21
Is it more money? Must be more money.
00:09:22
>> Well, I I it is a bit more money. Um,
00:09:26
but the this the only perk that I that I
00:09:29
really really think is is worth it.
00:09:31
Normally, I don't go for perks. Um but
00:09:34
if you have the security with you then
00:09:37
because those guys are all carrying a
00:09:39
bit of metal uh you don't have to go
00:09:41
through the security at the airport. So
00:09:45
there's a little things but um but other
00:09:48
than that very little changes.
00:09:49
>> So in the in the last 3 months since you
00:09:51
were made deputy prime minister how many
00:09:52
days have you been caretaker prime
00:09:54
minister?
00:09:55
>> Uh I don't know probably
00:09:58
couple of weeks worth. Yeah. Yeah. You
00:10:00
and I went out and got some fish and
00:10:02
chips for lunch a couple of weeks ago
00:10:03
and that was a day where you were
00:10:05
caretaker prime minister and yeah we had
00:10:06
security guards.
00:10:07
>> Oh yeah.
00:10:08
>> Do they have guns? Do they have guns on
00:10:09
their person?
00:10:10
>> I don't think you're supposed to talk
00:10:11
about that. I don't think so. I assume I
00:10:14
assume that that's just their handcuffs
00:10:15
that can't go through security.
00:10:17
>> Yeah. Right. Right. Um was there a
00:10:20
special ceremony when you become deputy
00:10:21
prime minister?
00:10:22
>> Yeah. And it was actually really nice.
00:10:24
Um Cindy Ko the um governor general said
00:10:28
look you know we think we should do
00:10:29
something. I said okay and um you know
00:10:32
Chris Luxon actually didn't have to but
00:10:34
but showed up. Um so it was nice that
00:10:36
people were there and also had um you
00:10:38
know a few members of my family and and
00:10:40
also some of my staff that have been
00:10:42
with me since you know since times when
00:10:45
this seemed crazy uh were were there
00:10:47
with me. Um so that was that was it was
00:10:49
a pretty cool day actually.
00:10:52
Yeah, we we don't need to focus too much
00:10:53
on the the David Seymour back story
00:10:55
because I feel like we did that in the
00:10:56
previous um podcast, but um in a
00:10:58
nutshell, your dad is still around and
00:11:00
you've got two brothers. Um your mom
00:11:03
passed away from cancer in your early
00:11:05
20s, so you've had you've been without
00:11:07
her for as almost as long as what you
00:11:08
had her now.
00:11:09
>> Very Yeah. Yeah. A few years off that,
00:11:11
but very close. Yeah.
00:11:12
>> Yeah. What What did your dad make of the
00:11:13
whole thing becoming deputy prime
00:11:15
minister?
00:11:15
>> Pretty cool, right?
00:11:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he he's just a you know
00:11:18
um proud dad in that sense. Um I think
00:11:22
uh so no I'm lucky to um have someone
00:11:24
that's been sort of quietly supportive
00:11:26
for such a long time. Most dads are but
00:11:28
he's a pretty pretty classic dad in that
00:11:30
sense.
00:11:30
>> How how are they when like are you are
00:11:33
you quite close with them in terms of
00:11:34
like talking on the phone or you got a
00:11:35
family WhatsApp group? Like I'm thinking
00:11:37
when when the heat's really on you like
00:11:40
I think I said at the start of it you're
00:11:41
like you you're probably one of the most
00:11:42
hated politicians in New Zealand this
00:11:44
year. Like what sort of impact does that
00:11:45
have on them? Um,
00:11:47
>> are they quite resilient or they know
00:11:48
that you can handle yourself?
00:11:50
>> They are. I I mean, they don't worry
00:11:52
about me. I I worry about them um
00:11:55
probably unnecessarily. But I think it's
00:11:58
almost harder when it's someone close to
00:12:00
you because you sort of have, you know,
00:12:02
you want to defend them, but you
00:12:04
actually can't really. Uh, or you could,
00:12:06
but it would make the situation more
00:12:08
complex. Um, so yeah, I I worry a bit
00:12:11
about them, but they seem to be fine. I
00:12:13
mean, to be honest, we're all at a
00:12:15
really busy stage. So, you know, Mark's
00:12:17
got three young children. Um, one of
00:12:19
whom sends me political emails quite
00:12:22
often. Um, that's the one that sent me
00:12:23
the email about children being able to
00:12:25
work. Um, you know, Xander's got a
00:12:27
couple of uh small children, so they're
00:12:30
they're kind of at like peak crazy in
00:12:32
their life cycle. Uh, so, you know, we
00:12:35
see each other, but not as much as we
00:12:37
probably have at other times and will in
00:12:39
the future. Well,
00:12:39
>> it's adulting, right? You you have your
00:12:41
own stuff going on. Everyone's busy.
00:12:42
Totally. Yeah.
00:12:44
>> So, you're over halfway through this
00:12:45
term. Um, yeah. Give yourself a report
00:12:49
card. Like, are there KPIs? How do you
00:12:50
know what you're doing and and if you're
00:12:52
doing the right thing?
00:12:53
>> Well, the number one thing is are we are
00:12:55
we bringing about the change of policy?
00:12:58
Uh, so if you look at, you know, the
00:13:00
stuff that I'm specifically doing,
00:13:02
Pharmac is way different and it's
00:13:04
funding a lot more drugs than it was 18
00:13:06
months ago. The culture is way more
00:13:08
listening. They've now got, you know, a
00:13:11
patient group inside Pharmac. So,
00:13:13
they're actually listening to patients
00:13:14
more and they're starting to figure out
00:13:16
how they bid to get more money. Uh,
00:13:19
Medsafe that allows medicines to be used
00:13:22
in New Zealand. Uh, they have decided to
00:13:24
allow medical conferences, thank God,
00:13:27
uh, because we've effectively banned
00:13:28
those for a long time. Uh, sent all our
00:13:31
doctors to Fiji. Uh, they're saying that
00:13:33
if something is allowed in two other
00:13:34
countries, then it has to be approved
00:13:36
here within 30 days. So I think all
00:13:38
pretty good stuff. Uh you know I'm also
00:13:40
responsible for education. Uh school
00:13:42
attendance uh continues to rise. We've
00:13:45
got a lot more money in the budget which
00:13:47
is one of the few areas I think it's
00:13:48
worth spending more that drugs. uh we've
00:13:51
um medicines that is I'm always told to
00:13:53
say um um and uh you know we've also
00:13:58
opened up charter schools which are just
00:14:00
really radically changing things because
00:14:02
I'm a a big supporter uh of what the
00:14:06
government is doing with the NCA uh with
00:14:09
the phones and schools uh with the you
00:14:11
know not having three classrooms joined
00:14:13
together
00:14:14
>> but ultimately that is running the
00:14:18
government schools better uh we need to
00:14:21
start thinking out of the box how we get
00:14:22
some totally different ways of doing
00:14:24
education if we're going to keep kids
00:14:26
engaged and have a big future as a
00:14:28
country. So really proud of what we're
00:14:30
doing with charters and attendance
00:14:32
school lunches. Everyone loves to beat
00:14:34
up on it but you notice there's been no
00:14:35
media coverage for the last 2 3 months
00:14:38
because basically we fixed all the
00:14:40
problems. We're doing it for half the
00:14:41
price uh and the satisfaction's gone up
00:14:44
and the on-time delivery has gone up.
00:14:45
So, you know, there's there's no no
00:14:47
story for RNZ in that. Um, so look, I I
00:14:50
think those things are going well. Um,
00:14:52
and then I I get the sense going on of
00:14:54
it. So, you ask,
00:14:56
>> yeah, on this on the school lunches, um,
00:14:59
there's a quote from you. Sushi is woke.
00:15:01
Y
00:15:02
>> what's what's woke about sushi? What
00:15:04
does that mean?
00:15:06
>> You know what? I'm I'm just going to
00:15:08
tell you, um, that comment wasn't by me.
00:15:11
It was somebody put that on my social
00:15:13
media. I've never been more pissed off.
00:15:14
I I thought it was a stupid comment and
00:15:17
um you know I so I can't answer that. I
00:15:19
I think it was a really dumb thing to
00:15:21
say. Um and sometimes that just happens.
00:15:24
>> Oh, like someone in your team.
00:15:25
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:26
>> Right. Right.
00:15:27
>> Oh god, that must be infuriating.
00:15:29
>> Yeah. I mean that happens every now and
00:15:30
then. I'll never I'll never say who. Um
00:15:32
I I never uh bag someone else for a
00:15:36
mistake that's made. Usually you just
00:15:38
own it. But yeah, that was a stupid
00:15:40
comment. So
00:15:42
>> thanks for that. That's going to make a
00:15:44
great little clip for social media.
00:15:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm so I feel so much better
00:15:47
now. I feel kind of weights off my
00:15:49
shoulders.
00:15:50
>> Cleansed. Yeah. Some other good stuff
00:15:51
you've done. I don't think anyone would
00:15:53
disagree with this. Um the the cauldrons
00:15:55
and night and days putting pseudoine
00:15:57
back into them. They didn't work. They
00:15:58
were ineffective.
00:15:59
>> Pseudoine's back to wake you up.
00:16:00
Melatonin's going to be back very soon
00:16:03
um to uh put you back to sleep. So yeah,
00:16:05
that's all good. And look regulation. I
00:16:07
mean, we're slashing red tape. I mean,
00:16:08
even just little things like letting
00:16:10
people put a garden shed wherever the
00:16:11
hell they want rather than there's
00:16:12
actually rules about that. We got rid of
00:16:14
it. Um, and a whole lot of sort of
00:16:16
bigger, probably more serious stuff
00:16:18
about how early childhoods regulated.
00:16:20
Um, what we're doing with uh letting
00:16:22
agricultural products into the country
00:16:24
so our farmers can stay at the cutting
00:16:26
edge. We're reviewing
00:16:27
telecommunications, product labeling I
00:16:29
mentioned. I mean, right across the
00:16:30
board, we're just slashing stupid rules.
00:16:32
So, look, all of that stuff I I think
00:16:34
we're doing pretty well. Um, and then
00:16:36
the other side is, you know, where's
00:16:37
your your public perception? How's your
00:16:40
polling? I mean, ACT generally polls
00:16:41
higher now than it did on election
00:16:43
night. Got to be happy with that. Uh,
00:16:45
and then there's the wider act team. You
00:16:46
I look at what Brook's doing, Nicole,
00:16:48
uh, you know, I look at people like
00:16:50
Paramid, Palmer, some of our our newer
00:16:52
MPs on the back benches. I I think our
00:16:54
team's going really well, too.
00:16:57
>> Okay. Some other bits and pieces. Um,
00:16:59
driving a Land Rover up the steps of
00:17:01
Parliament. Yeah. Was was that a Was
00:17:03
that a good move, a bad move? Was that a
00:17:05
mistake?
00:17:06
>> You got told off for that. It was a
00:17:07
stunt.
00:17:07
>> No, no, I didn't get told off for that.
00:17:09
No, no one no one did cuz I I actually
00:17:11
didn't break any rules. Uh it would be
00:17:16
breaking the rule to disobey the
00:17:17
speaker. Uh but no one actually told me
00:17:19
the speaker had said that. Uh and here's
00:17:22
why I did it. You know, I love this
00:17:24
country, but it just depresses the be
00:17:27
Jesus out of me whenever and you heard
00:17:29
it after that. People say, "Oh, you
00:17:31
should have asked permission." Really?
00:17:33
Who? Who? There was no rule to be
00:17:36
broken. That no one was in any danger.
00:17:38
The only person that put themselves in
00:17:39
danger was the security guard that ran
00:17:40
in front of the thing trying to stop me
00:17:42
doing the thing that was otherwise not
00:17:43
dangerous. It was an example of just
00:17:46
being able and you know a lot of the
00:17:48
feedback we got from you know farmers up
00:17:50
in the hook you say, "Yeah, we should
00:17:51
have bloody gone to the top of the
00:17:53
stairs." So, and and we just I mean we
00:17:56
need to break free. If something's not
00:17:59
hurting anyone else, you should be able
00:18:00
to do it. The other reason I did it, uh,
00:18:02
and this is someone that you should get
00:18:04
on your show now think about it, Julian
00:18:06
Payton. I first came across him when he
00:18:09
tried to import a piano from England as
00:18:12
he migrated to New Zealand to uh, work
00:18:14
at the medical school. Anyway, he, long
00:18:17
story short, the Department of
00:18:18
Conservation tried to destroy his piano.
00:18:19
I won't go into that now. Then he's he's
00:18:22
researching to do these heart valves
00:18:24
which grow with the kid because at the
00:18:26
moment if you're a heart kid with
00:18:27
roheatic fever which New Zealand has
00:18:28
like third world levels off. They put a
00:18:31
tiny valve in then your heart grows.
00:18:32
They cut you up again. And these kids
00:18:34
40% of them die before 20 cuz they're
00:18:36
multiple open heart surgeries. He's
00:18:38
creating valves that are made out of pig
00:18:41
cells that grow with your heart as a
00:18:44
small child. and he's trying to raise
00:18:46
money and he raised a lot of money after
00:18:49
the attention that the whole thing got
00:18:51
after that.
00:18:52
>> But it also showed I mean it was on TV
00:18:54
for three nights in a row. I mean like
00:18:56
seriously uh no rules were broken.
00:18:59
Everyone went berserk. The opposition
00:19:00
went berserk. It's like actually I never
00:19:03
faced any penalty. I was never in any
00:19:05
trouble. Nothing was done wrong. There
00:19:07
was no one put in any danger with that
00:19:08
one exception. It raised money for a
00:19:10
great charity and um a whole lot of
00:19:13
people decide to have a massive wing.
00:19:14
Well, you know, that's on them. And
00:19:16
>> did you get told off by um Prime
00:19:18
Minister Luxen for writing a letter to
00:19:20
the UN? What was the story there? And
00:19:21
what is a a telling off from the Prime
00:19:22
Minister look like?
00:19:23
>> Well, no. I mean, people people say
00:19:25
that. And again, that's another example
00:19:27
of where the media has misrepresented
00:19:29
what's actually happened. Um, should I
00:19:32
have written it? Well, I suspect there
00:19:33
will be more to come out about that. Uh,
00:19:36
but at the end of the day, people love
00:19:37
the letter. If anything, I think people
00:19:39
just wish that they'd uh written it
00:19:41
themselves. Um but no, I wouldn't
00:19:43
believe the hype on that one.
00:19:45
>> What about um there was something to do
00:19:46
with a a Pulking Horn letter. Did you
00:19:48
write a letter of support to the police
00:19:50
about Pokey?
00:19:51
>> Yeah, I did. And again, um I have a
00:19:54
policy that my first job is to be the
00:19:56
last line of defense for people who live
00:19:58
in the Epsom electorate. Uh so if
00:20:00
someone comes in and bear in mind at
00:20:02
this point there were no charges. Uh
00:20:05
this was a person who had been adjacent
00:20:07
to a death. uh and I'd been told by
00:20:12
other people who knew him, look, this
00:20:14
guy is on the edge. I I think he could
00:20:16
actually uh kill himself comes into my
00:20:19
office and says, "Look, you know, I feel
00:20:21
I'm being harassed and unfairly
00:20:23
treated." So, I wrote a letter which
00:20:25
just said, "Look, um totally respect
00:20:28
your independence. You guys have got to
00:20:30
make a call on this, but you know, this
00:20:32
guy's at his wit's end. He's got no one
00:20:34
else to go to. I feel it's my duty to
00:20:36
pass on that these are this is how he's
00:20:38
feeling about the whole situation right
00:20:39
now. Um that was it was as simple as
00:20:42
that and I would do that for any uh
00:20:46
constituent um whether they're popular,
00:20:48
unpopular, liked, disliked. If someone
00:20:51
came into my office tomorrow and I was
00:20:53
getting messages saying this person is
00:20:55
suicidal, someone's got to help them. Uh
00:20:57
then I would help them.
00:21:01
Yeah, it's interesting giving the the
00:21:02
time frame of it because you hear the
00:21:03
thing and you think how could how could
00:21:04
someone support Pulking Horn like he's
00:21:06
he's not a great character, but this is
00:21:08
like pre-arrest, pre- anything. So you
00:21:11
you weren't aware of the full extent of
00:21:13
everything that had gone on.
00:21:15
>> No. And I had I had no all I had was the
00:21:18
facts in front of me. Um and you're
00:21:20
right. So that you know I I can't even
00:21:22
remember when it was. When the media
00:21:24
asked me about it, I completely forgot
00:21:25
I'd done it. Um but it was certainly you
00:21:30
know after uh Pauline had died and it
00:21:34
was a long time before it was all over
00:21:36
the media. Uh interestingly the letter
00:21:39
just kind of appeared in the media you
00:21:41
know 2 years after it was written. So
00:21:44
whatever. I mean, ultimately, if people
00:21:47
are um accusing me of being prepared to
00:21:50
uh stand up for my constituents and have
00:21:53
some humanity for someone who's down and
00:21:55
and perhaps dangerously down, then I'm
00:21:57
Yes, I I will do that.
00:21:59
>> Well, thanks for that explanation. Wait,
00:22:00
what sort of time schedule are you on
00:22:02
today as deputy prime minister? Is this
00:22:03
your last thing of the day?
00:22:05
>> No, no, I'm doing a public meeting at
00:22:06
Eldersley tonight. So, we got two or 300
00:22:09
people RSVP and I'm basically going
00:22:11
along just to hear what people have got
00:22:13
to say cuz the danger is um you know,
00:22:16
you know a politician stuffed when they
00:22:18
start to sound like the people in the
00:22:19
beehive and uh you got to get out and
00:22:21
listen to the people who are actually
00:22:22
paying the paying the ticket for you to
00:22:24
be there.
00:22:24
>> Got it. Never ends. But yeah. Yeah. One
00:22:25
other thing that's been quite big in in
00:22:27
parliament was the um the haka tipati
00:22:29
maldi. Um there was Rawi Hana. Who was
00:22:32
the other the lady from?
00:22:34
>> Oh, Debbie Napka.
00:22:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. So um Hannah rips up the um
00:22:38
treaties principal bill and then they
00:22:40
perform a haka in front of you.
00:22:42
>> You what what's that like from your
00:22:44
perspective? Is that intimidating?
00:22:46
>> No. Um it's saddening. Uh because I look
00:22:51
at the society we live in and after
00:22:54
about 300,000 years of humans running
00:22:56
around boppinging each other over the
00:22:57
head, keeping each other as slaves,
00:23:00
practicing cannibalism, and just
00:23:02
generally being savages, uh we have
00:23:04
arrived at a time in our history where
00:23:06
to be respected, you have to make your
00:23:08
arguments using ideas and logic and
00:23:11
facts. And people have the ability to
00:23:14
choose which ones they believe and how
00:23:16
they think. Um, that's a wonderful place
00:23:19
to be. It's allowed us to have science.
00:23:22
It's allowed us to have democracy. It's
00:23:24
allowed us to have courts and the rule
00:23:26
of law. It's basically allowed us to
00:23:29
live twice as long uh as humans used to
00:23:32
live. I mean, people, everyone used to,
00:23:33
you know, on average live to 40. Now, on
00:23:35
average, we live to 80.
00:23:36
>> Now, all of a sudden, we say, "Okay, um,
00:23:40
if you don't like something, uh, then
00:23:42
you just get up and and dance around and
00:23:44
yell and poke your tongue out." and in
00:23:46
their case um make gestures of of
00:23:49
shooting gestures uh of a gun uh that
00:23:53
people if you don't like their ideas
00:23:55
instead of debating them with better
00:23:57
ideas maybe you should kill them. Well,
00:23:59
that makes me sad. Um and it makes me
00:24:02
sad that it has been given as much
00:24:05
legitimacy uh as it has because this
00:24:09
whole idea that we live in a
00:24:11
post-enlightenment world with reason,
00:24:13
facts, and logic um you know that's
00:24:16
pretty lucky. And uh the danger is you
00:24:19
don't know what you got till it's gone.
00:24:22
>> That moment went um crazy viral, spread
00:24:24
like wildfire around the world. Yeah. Um
00:24:27
for you personally, like being the the
00:24:28
the Yeah. the person that hacker was
00:24:30
aimed at like is it is that
00:24:32
embarrassing?
00:24:34
>> Oh, it's not embarrassing. It's
00:24:36
embarrassing for them. Um because I
00:24:39
believe that you know the age of reason
00:24:41
and you know debating based on the facts
00:24:44
and allowing people to choose make up
00:24:45
their own mind which which story they
00:24:48
prefer. Uh I'm contributing to that. I'm
00:24:51
contributing to the the democratic
00:24:53
environment that that allows people to
00:24:55
live twice as long. Um those guys
00:24:57
whether they realize it or not uh are
00:25:00
trying to take us backwards and and
00:25:01
worse they're trying to say that there's
00:25:04
something inherently mauy about uh you
00:25:08
know behaving that way. Well there's not
00:25:10
uh there are Maui people who believe in
00:25:14
them actually a small minority of Mari
00:25:16
that actually vote for Tatarati Mari. Uh
00:25:19
there are non-mari people who who
00:25:21
actually agree with them. Uh but there
00:25:24
are also uh a lot of mai people who
00:25:27
would much rather be in an environment
00:25:29
of open debate and persuasion without
00:25:31
violence or without attempts at
00:25:33
intimidation and there are equally uh
00:25:35
lots of non-mai people who feel that way
00:25:38
too. So you know they're trying to say
00:25:40
that this is the only way to be mai and
00:25:42
that's totally untrue that that's
00:25:43
embarrassing.
00:25:45
>> What's your relationship like with those
00:25:47
guys like generally speaking if you see
00:25:48
each other in the hallways or whatever?
00:25:50
We talked about in the last last time
00:25:51
you came on the podcast like we talked
00:25:53
about your relationship with some of the
00:25:54
other politicians like Willie Jackson
00:25:55
Springstine had called you um a useless
00:25:58
marry.
00:25:58
>> Yeah. Um and you spoke really highly of
00:26:01
him and um
00:26:01
>> I still do. I think Willy's great.
00:26:03
>> Seemed like there's like a fairly good
00:26:04
relationship between you guys. It's
00:26:06
almost like um
00:26:07
>> Cody Taylor and Dane Cole's on the
00:26:08
field.
00:26:09
>> They seem to hate each other, but
00:26:10
there's a lot of mutual respect there
00:26:12
with the um the party moldy crew. Like
00:26:14
it Yeah. Is there any sort of like
00:26:16
mutual respect there and that you you
00:26:18
know you're both a small group of people
00:26:19
doing the same job a very unique job or
00:26:22
>> Well the problem is that you know a guy
00:26:25
like Willie Jackson I mean first of all
00:26:26
he's just a lot of fun and second of all
00:26:28
you know he doesn't mean it um and uh
00:26:31
you know good on him I guess but these
00:26:33
other guys they are there to try and
00:26:37
pull down the institution of parliament
00:26:39
you know they're not they're not there
00:26:41
as colleagues like a Willie Jackson or
00:26:44
you know a Chris Hipkins or Winston
00:26:46
Peters or you know someone who's in a
00:26:48
different party but basically committed
00:26:50
to or even even the Greens basically are
00:26:53
committed to to the parliamentary
00:26:55
democratic um way of life for New
00:26:57
Zealand. Uh whereas those guys are there
00:27:00
make no mistake to get as many hits on
00:27:03
Tik Tok as possible and they don't give
00:27:05
a rat's derriè about the future of our
00:27:08
parliamentary democracy. In fact they
00:27:09
openly say they don't like democracy. Uh
00:27:11
I find it much more difficult uh to have
00:27:14
a relationship with someone like that.
00:27:17
>> Yeah. With the the treaty's principal
00:27:18
bill, did you did you anticipate the
00:27:20
level of backlash and emotion it would
00:27:22
trigger?
00:27:23
>> Um yes and no. Uh I thought that there
00:27:27
would definitely be people who frankly
00:27:30
are um you know just so committed to
00:27:34
this idea that your identity as Mai
00:27:37
trumps everything else and that anything
00:27:40
that questions that is an attack on you
00:27:41
and you've got to march and you know
00:27:43
call the person racist and all the rest.
00:27:45
Uh but I I certainly didn't think that
00:27:48
it would be as widespread as it was. And
00:27:51
it just I guess reminded me that there
00:27:53
is a a sense of tribalism that never
00:27:56
goes far away. By the way, I mean
00:27:59
this is not just Maui. I I mean
00:28:03
everybody 200 years ago, everybody uh
00:28:06
was keeping slaves. Uh everybody was
00:28:09
applying the death penalty. Uh the
00:28:11
French I recently found out only got rid
00:28:14
of the guillotine in 1981. So there you
00:28:16
have it. But uh you know I was surprised
00:28:20
at uh just how many people were prepared
00:28:23
to attack a bill that says look the
00:28:27
government makes the laws. The
00:28:29
government has the same treatment for
00:28:31
everyone and the government upholds
00:28:32
everyone's basic rights. It it I I
00:28:34
didn't think it would be that
00:28:35
controversial. Mhm.
00:28:36
>> If he knew it was going to be that that
00:28:38
controversial, would would ACT and
00:28:39
yourself have just scrapped the whole
00:28:42
idea?
00:28:42
>> Oh, no. No. I I mean,
00:28:44
>> but you would have proceeded anyway.
00:28:45
>> I think it made it more important to do
00:28:47
it. And I believe that in time the
00:28:50
treaty principles bill or something very
00:28:51
much like it will succeed because the
00:28:54
alternative is to have a society which
00:28:57
is basically a cast system where if you
00:29:00
are of one background, you have a sort
00:29:03
of place in the world. If you're a
00:29:04
different background then you have a
00:29:05
different place in the world and you
00:29:07
hear that I mean I mentioned Parid
00:29:09
Palmer before she's one of our MPs she's
00:29:11
born in India um you know she's got a
00:29:13
PhD she runs a successful export
00:29:14
business she's been a broadcaster she's
00:29:16
been a member of parliament she's a
00:29:17
mother of two she's you know a fantastic
00:29:20
person and she's frequently told that
00:29:23
she has no right to commentate even
00:29:26
though she's an elected MP uh on issues
00:29:28
in New Zealand she should go back to
00:29:29
India or someone told me the other day
00:29:32
she should focus on uh overstayers and
00:29:35
immigration fraud amongst quote her own
00:29:37
people. Now that's the view that's
00:29:40
coming out. Uh that's the view that
00:29:42
there are people who are legitimately
00:29:44
here and there are people that are just
00:29:45
sort of late comers who should play a
00:29:47
different role. New Zealand won't work
00:29:50
if that is our outlook. And so I believe
00:29:53
sooner or later uh enough people are
00:29:55
going to say this is enough. We we need
00:29:58
to get back to our roots as a a nation
00:30:01
of pioneers, you know, pioneering people
00:30:03
who's traveled further than anyone else
00:30:05
to give our kids a better tomorrow. And
00:30:06
we got more in common than separates us.
00:30:09
>> Yeah. Oh, I'd agree with that. That I
00:30:11
love that line. That's um that's yeah,
00:30:13
sort of like a by line of this podcast.
00:30:15
You know, you have more in common than
00:30:16
what you have different from people.
00:30:18
That's why I like having long form
00:30:19
conversations with people just so you
00:30:20
can get to understand them a bit better.
00:30:22
Um, the Times UK, they called you, this
00:30:24
was a headline, the New Zealander who
00:30:26
aims to undo 185 years of moldy rights.
00:30:30
Um, yeah. Does that sting? I'm trying to
00:30:32
I'm trying to I'm probably projecting
00:30:33
here, but if I was in your position,
00:30:35
like I I'd be really upset by that.
00:30:37
>> I guess the thing is I I don't
00:30:40
personally get hurt or stung by these
00:30:43
things because I know that they are
00:30:47
actually they're frankly wrong. I mean
00:30:49
that that particular headline is is
00:30:51
factually untrue. Um I want to uphold
00:30:54
Maui rights. I want to embed the treaty.
00:30:57
I just have an understanding of it that
00:30:59
I think has been lost for a long period
00:31:01
of time. Uh that's that's why that's why
00:31:03
I'm doing it. So that headline is wrong.
00:31:06
Uh it doesn't hurt me because it hasn't
00:31:08
proven that I'm wrong. Uh it saddens me
00:31:10
again that we live in this time uh of
00:31:14
never been more human freedom. There's
00:31:15
never been more human enlightenment. And
00:31:17
yet, uh, you know, people like that are
00:31:21
actually just putting sand in the gears.
00:31:25
>> Yeah. When there's, um, 35,000 people or
00:31:28
whatever the crowd was that marched to
00:31:29
Parliament, um, they can't be wrong,
00:31:31
though. That many people can't be wrong.
00:31:33
Did Did they
00:31:34
>> Oh, easily.
00:31:35
>> Did they You think 1% of of people can't
00:31:38
be wrong on an issue? Yes, they can. I
00:31:40
mean, it was less. It was, you know, 2/3
00:31:42
of a percent of New Zealand.
00:31:44
But do you think people just
00:31:45
misunderstood it or was it was it a
00:31:47
communication problem somewhere along
00:31:49
the the pipeline?
00:31:50
>> I I I think people were people were
00:31:52
deliberately told uh things that were
00:31:54
untrue about it. Uh a lot of people you
00:31:58
know who were on that march I at least
00:32:00
one journalist went and asked them you
00:32:02
know why are you here and there weren't
00:32:03
a lot of coherent answers for that. If
00:32:05
you looked at the submissions on the
00:32:07
bill uh there weren't a lot of answers
00:32:09
for that. I visited a school in Palmy
00:32:13
North, Fryberg High a while back, and
00:32:16
there are a whole lot of students
00:32:18
protesting my visit. They'd been told on
00:32:21
TikTok that I was there to take away
00:32:23
their Kapahaka group. Number one, I have
00:32:25
no power to do that. Number two, I have
00:32:27
no interest in doing that. Uh, but
00:32:29
that's what they had come to believe.
00:32:30
And if I thought that was true, I'd go
00:32:32
out and protest, too. So, I I think
00:32:34
there's an element of that. I I think
00:32:36
about some of the things that the likes
00:32:37
of Tartati Mai uh said that I was trying
00:32:41
to take away the language, the culture,
00:32:43
the manner of Mai people. Um that's
00:32:46
untrue. Uh but a lot of people believed
00:32:48
it. So uh could we have head that off at
00:32:52
the past and communicated better? Yeah,
00:32:54
always could have done better. Uh but
00:32:56
it's worth noting that there were also
00:32:58
people who are actively acting in bad
00:33:01
faith at the same time. M
00:33:05
if you sat down for dinner with um some
00:33:06
moldy elders who are deeply hurt by the
00:33:09
bill, what would you say to them human
00:33:10
to human?
00:33:12
>> Uh well, I mean I've I've done something
00:33:15
very much like that. I I used to get
00:33:17
frequent calls uh from Dame Eritana
00:33:21
Tafifangi. Um may she rest in peace. And
00:33:25
well, in fairness, I mean, she she
00:33:26
wasn't really opposed um in our
00:33:29
conversations. So, but if I was to sit
00:33:32
down, I'd say, well, just a second.
00:33:33
Let's just look at what are the
00:33:35
aspirations of young MAI in New Zealand
00:33:39
today. Uh it's something like I want a
00:33:43
place to call my own. Uh I want
00:33:46
something to do that's meaningful. I
00:33:48
want the choice or the ability to start
00:33:50
a family. I want to feel good about
00:33:52
myself and be able to express my
00:33:53
language and culture. Now, show me where
00:33:57
this conception of the treaty that I've
00:33:59
advanced uh takes away from that.
00:34:02
There's there's lots of problems right
00:34:03
now that are stopping that. I mean, you
00:34:05
try building a house. You know, we got
00:34:06
real problems with productivity, growth,
00:34:08
and job creation. And uh you know, I I
00:34:10
think there's a lot of people are
00:34:11
struggling with uh knowing where they
00:34:14
fit in that that there there's no
00:34:15
shortage of other problems that we
00:34:17
should be addressing together. But my
00:34:19
bill by saying that the parliament makes
00:34:21
the laws that that everyone has equal
00:34:23
rights and that the crown's going to
00:34:25
uphold your your property rights. Uh
00:34:27
that that's not the problem here.
00:34:29
>> So you you genuinely believe it was a
00:34:32
win-win for everyone.
00:34:34
>> There's no question about that. And it's
00:34:36
based in the evidence of what has worked
00:34:38
around the world. I mean we've now got
00:34:41
you know hundreds of countries that have
00:34:43
tried all sorts of different things and
00:34:45
the places where people especially
00:34:47
people who are disadvantaged have been
00:34:48
able to get a good shot at life feel
00:34:51
good about themselves have somewhere to
00:34:52
live have a future have a home uh be
00:34:55
fulfilled are the places where you say
00:34:57
right here's the basic deal there's a
00:35:00
set of laws that basically say you can
00:35:02
do what you like as long as you're not
00:35:04
harming anyone else and uh you just get
00:35:07
on with it and good luck and When other
00:35:09
people succeed, you know, their success
00:35:11
isn't taking away from you. In fact,
00:35:13
often when one person invents a
00:35:16
technology, someone else will use it in
00:35:17
a way that means that they can produce
00:35:20
more or do something else that's special
00:35:21
or inspiring. Um, you know, I I look at
00:35:25
the success of the Oakland FC, which I
00:35:28
visited this morning. I mean, you could
00:35:30
imagine where some of those young people
00:35:32
who are growing up in that team culture
00:35:34
are going to end up and what they're
00:35:34
going to do. So, success actually spills
00:35:36
over and gets more success. It's
00:35:38
positive some thinking. Uh, and all I
00:35:41
propose is a a version of that basic
00:35:44
starting point. Here's a set of rules.
00:35:46
Do what you like. Don't harm anyone
00:35:48
else. You're all equal. Get on with it.
00:35:50
Let a thousand flowers bloom.
00:35:53
>> So, you're not racist.
00:35:56
I I That's a It's a It's a terrible a
00:35:59
terrible thing to be called,
00:36:00
>> especially if you're not and you know
00:36:02
you're not and you know that your
00:36:04
intentions are coming from a good place.
00:36:06
I I struggle to say how that wouldn't
00:36:08
that wouldn't hurt you even a little
00:36:09
bit.
00:36:10
>> Again, it it saddens me because
00:36:15
first of all, you know, I talk about the
00:36:16
enlightenment, I talk about reason, I
00:36:18
talk about facts and logic. Uh you have
00:36:20
to first of all to use a word, you have
00:36:23
to know what it means.
00:36:24
>> So, you've got to have a decent
00:36:25
definition of what racism is. And for
00:36:27
me, uh well, let's think about, you
00:36:30
know, sexism is when you say that you
00:36:32
you're really focused on someone's sex.
00:36:34
You know, the the most important thing
00:36:35
about a person is are they a man or a
00:36:37
woman? And therefore, you're going to
00:36:39
make all sorts of conclusions about them
00:36:41
that might not be supported by their
00:36:43
actual characteristics. And you know,
00:36:45
we've got rid of a lot of there's still
00:36:47
some sexism, but we've got rid of most
00:36:49
of it, I would say, in the last hundred
00:36:51
years. Um, racism is again, it's it's
00:36:54
it's race is your big thing. You know,
00:36:56
you someone's before you know anything
00:36:58
else about someone, uh, you you got to
00:37:00
focus on their race. Uh, one of my
00:37:03
favorite songs in the world by Buddy
00:37:04
Guy, uh, Skin Deep. He says, you know,
00:37:07
he he faced a lot of racism growing up
00:37:09
in the South as a black man in the 50s
00:37:11
and, uh, you know, his mom used to say
00:37:13
to him, "Yeah, but that's only skin
00:37:14
deep. It's what's inside that counts."
00:37:16
So that that's always been my belief and
00:37:18
a lot of that came out of the civil
00:37:20
rights movement. Um, you think about MLK
00:37:22
Jr., the famous, you know, content of
00:37:24
your character, not color of your skin.
00:37:26
So, you got to start with a definition.
00:37:28
Racism is when you believe that
00:37:30
someone's race is more important than
00:37:31
all their other characteristics. Now, I
00:37:34
I say the opposite. I say you should
00:37:36
ignore someone's race, they can't change
00:37:38
it. So, what's the point? Uh you should
00:37:40
focus on all the other characteristics
00:37:42
of a person. Um so, you know, not only
00:37:45
am I not racist, I'm I'm actually
00:37:47
fighting it. Uh, a lot of my opponents
00:37:50
in politics will say, for example, Mari
00:37:53
have special insight into looking after
00:37:56
the environment. Like, really? Because
00:37:59
I'm part MI Mari and I've looked inside.
00:38:00
I I, you know, if I want to be good at
00:38:03
looking after the environment, I should
00:38:04
probably go and study ecology or, you
00:38:07
know, learn to plant trees or something.
00:38:09
Those are things that I can actively do
00:38:11
with my life. You're not born with that
00:38:13
innate ability. And that's really the
00:38:15
the ultimate conflict of visions. Some
00:38:17
people think life is predetermined. It's
00:38:19
tribal. You live in the tribe. They
00:38:21
bring you up to do just like your daddy
00:38:23
done. It's Bruce Springsteen song. Uh
00:38:25
and
00:38:26
>> the river great song.
00:38:27
>> It is a beautiful song. Come from down
00:38:29
in the valley where Mr. When you're
00:38:31
young and
00:38:31
>> we'll get back to that.
00:38:34
The alternative the alternative view is
00:38:37
that well look you know there's there's
00:38:39
good luck there's bad luck but basically
00:38:41
uh you're stuck here and you better use
00:38:43
your time on earth as crowded house say
00:38:46
um to make the most of of those years
00:38:49
and if you can uh you know take the
00:38:51
initiative take the future in your hands
00:38:53
who knows what you might achieve
00:38:54
determinism uh versus selfdeterminism or
00:39:02
>> sorry just a sidebar what the crowded
00:39:04
house song.
00:39:05
>> Oh, I I think it was actually an album
00:39:07
titled Time on Earth.
00:39:08
>> Right. Um,
00:39:09
>> beautiful phrase.
00:39:10
>> Has has this hurt you politically, do
00:39:12
you think?
00:39:14
>> Like, is it irreparable damage or do you
00:39:17
think you've done like enough good over
00:39:18
the years to to get past this? Is this
00:39:21
just a speed bump in the David Seymour
00:39:23
story? I think that it has um
00:39:27
strengthened that support amongst a core
00:39:30
of people who can see well this is what
00:39:33
you're trying to do and pe people who if
00:39:35
they listen to or watch this podcast
00:39:38
will be completely unsurprised because
00:39:40
they already basically could would know
00:39:42
what I was going to say. Uh they
00:39:45
probably become stronger supporters.
00:39:47
There will be a bunch of people on the
00:39:49
edge who sort of used to cons maybe used
00:39:52
to support ACT maybe used to be
00:39:54
considering supporting ACT who will say
00:39:56
oh I don't know it sounds a bit racist
00:39:58
it's disruptive and it didn't actually
00:39:59
pass so you know why bother uh for those
00:40:02
people yeah probably given us a bit of a
00:40:05
>> pick and bit of a hit um but I'm a great
00:40:08
believer that the truth always comes out
00:40:10
and the truth is New Zealand's future is
00:40:12
as a a society of people with equal
00:40:15
rights
00:40:16
Yeah, I I don't want to turn this into a
00:40:18
into a wo is me segment. Um and um I'm
00:40:21
sure you know
00:40:22
>> a pity party. It's not your style,
00:40:24
>> but um yeah, on online abuse or abuse in
00:40:27
public?
00:40:28
>> I mean, there were some really mean
00:40:30
banners at parades and there was lots of
00:40:32
comments online. What about you
00:40:33
personally? Are people going into your
00:40:34
DMs or
00:40:36
>> Oh, no doubt. But I mean, I I don't
00:40:38
really look at that. um you know if
00:40:40
stuff gets brought to my attention if I
00:40:42
need to see it but I mean again I guess
00:40:45
it's I'm sort of giving you the same
00:40:46
answer over and over but
00:40:48
>> that's if that's your truth though
00:40:49
that's fine.
00:40:50
>> Yeah. Which is is that
00:40:52
>> I actually feel more sad for them
00:40:53
because you've got this wonderful
00:40:55
opportunity to use your time on earth to
00:40:57
transact and debate and find new ideas
00:40:59
and learn new things and then you know
00:41:01
you're sort of sitting there saying you
00:41:04
know David Seymours or whatever. Um
00:41:07
that's sad for you. Um, it's not really
00:41:10
sad for me. Um, it it would be nice. I
00:41:13
mean, I wish I persuaded you to become a
00:41:14
supporter and, you know, it'd be all the
00:41:16
better. Um, but it kind of sounds like
00:41:19
it's going to be hard to do that with
00:41:20
your present disposition. So, I'll just
00:41:22
move on.
00:41:23
>> Where does where does that resilience or
00:41:26
strength of character, whatever you want
00:41:27
to call it, come from? Uh, I'm I'm just
00:41:30
curious because um like if we could
00:41:31
bottle that up, like um there'd be a
00:41:34
whole lot happier people in New Zealand.
00:41:35
You know, I was, you know, I'm a little
00:41:37
bit older than you, but we were brought
00:41:39
up with um the saying sticks and stones
00:41:41
may break my bones, but names will never
00:41:42
hurt me. And then social media came
00:41:44
along and names actually do hurt you.
00:41:46
There's a lot of lot of kids, young
00:41:48
people in particular in New Zealand that
00:41:49
would struggle with that. Yeah. How can
00:41:51
how can people be more like David
00:41:53
Seymour when it comes to that sort of
00:41:54
abuse online?
00:41:56
>> Well, it's pretty simple. Uh I hate to
00:41:58
tell you, but you're going to be dead in
00:42:00
80 years max for most people. uh and uh
00:42:04
there's not much you can do about that.
00:42:06
I know um some people like Elon Musk are
00:42:08
trying to live forever, but let's assume
00:42:10
that most of us got 80 years max. Um
00:42:14
then what are you going to do with that
00:42:16
time and there are things that you'll be
00:42:18
able to control and there'll be things
00:42:20
that you won't be able to control and as
00:42:22
the old saying goes um you need the
00:42:24
serenity to accept the things you can't.
00:42:26
So there's some things I just hate. I
00:42:27
mean I wish the Russians would stop
00:42:29
invading Ukraine. I've done a little
00:42:31
bit. Ray tried to raise a bit of money
00:42:33
and change that but you know I can't
00:42:34
really change it. Uh there are things
00:42:36
that I can control and the thing I have
00:42:39
the most control over is how act is
00:42:41
going to perform in the next we while
00:42:43
and how my personal relationships go and
00:42:45
that kind of thing. So, you know, focus
00:42:47
on those. Um, but the critical thing is
00:42:50
knowing the difference. And where a lot
00:42:52
of people get in trouble is they spend a
00:42:54
huge amount of time shouting at the
00:42:56
ocean trying to work out uh how they can
00:42:58
change things that they'll they'll never
00:43:00
actually be able uh to change. So,
00:43:03
there's a bunch of angry people out
00:43:04
there. I'll probably never be able to
00:43:06
change that. Uh there are things that I
00:43:08
can change. I'm focused on that. And if
00:43:09
you do that, you might be surprised uh
00:43:11
how much positive energy you can
00:43:13
generate.
00:43:14
>> Is that the serenity prayer? I feel like
00:43:16
that's the serenity prayer. accept the
00:43:18
things I can't I can't change and know
00:43:20
that the know the difference or
00:43:22
something.
00:43:22
>> I'm I'm not very good with my
00:43:24
scriptures, I got to tell you, but um I
00:43:26
think it was St. Francis of Aisi, but
00:43:28
it's also the alcoholics anonymous
00:43:31
prayer, I think. So,
00:43:32
>> in the movie.
00:43:33
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:34
>> Yeah. Um Yeah. What's your relationship
00:43:36
like with alcohol at the moment? Are you
00:43:37
are you in one of your non-drinking
00:43:38
periods or when we went out for lunch a
00:43:40
couple of weeks ago, we both had Coke
00:43:41
Zeros?
00:43:42
>> Yeah.
00:43:42
>> Coke. No sugar.
00:43:43
>> I am. Well, I am. I am today. Uh but
00:43:46
yeah, I I I'm in a way more moderate
00:43:49
place than than like when I was my first
00:43:51
year in parliament was wild. Like I I
00:43:53
think I actually spent more than I um
00:43:56
earned that year. Uh it was just one
00:43:58
endless um party really. It was great
00:44:00
fun. Um but not sustainable and pulse
00:44:04
didn't really work out that well. Then I
00:44:05
went cold turkey for a few years which
00:44:08
um was productive but boring. Now I'm
00:44:10
back to being a moderate couple of times
00:44:12
a week drinker and that's probably a
00:44:14
good space to be in. I can tell because
00:44:16
I start getting fat if I drink too much.
00:44:18
So yeah,
00:44:19
>> you must have long days.
00:44:20
>> Uh yeah. Yeah. I mean
00:44:22
>> you're up when what time's the alarm
00:44:24
going off?
00:44:24
>> Uh 5:15 some days. Depends if I got to
00:44:27
catch a flight or do early media. Um if
00:44:30
it's a if it's a Saturday then then
00:44:32
probably more like 8 or 9. So, in that
00:44:34
in that zone, but you know, definitely
00:44:38
definitely before 7 and weekdays and
00:44:40
usually um usually before 600.
00:44:43
>> Yeah. If you're getting up um like 6:00
00:44:46
most mornings or earlier, you you can't
00:44:47
do that and be a successful drinker, can
00:44:49
you?
00:44:50
>> Uh no, it depends how you define
00:44:52
success. But, um look, ultimately it
00:44:54
just makes you grumpy and then of course
00:44:56
everything else is harder. So
00:44:58
>> yeah, it's been a media stuff. And one
00:45:00
thing one thing I've noticed with you,
00:45:02
um, with me here today, with Henry, the
00:45:04
little boy that was in here earlier,
00:45:06
stuff I've seen with you on TV, whether
00:45:08
it's with, you know, Jack Tame, Jenny
00:45:10
May Coffin, Mike Hosking, whoever,
00:45:12
you're Oh, even Guy Williams um, at
00:45:15
Wangi. We'll get to that soon. Well, um,
00:45:17
you're always very calm and and and
00:45:19
measured. You know, your your
00:45:20
disposition never sort of changes.
00:45:22
>> Is that something you've learned over
00:45:24
time? Is it is that like a an axe that
00:45:26
you've sharpened?
00:45:28
>> Um
00:45:29
>> or is it just you innately?
00:45:30
>> It's um it just goes back to uh you know
00:45:33
you got to work out what you what you
00:45:35
can change and what you can't. Uh with a
00:45:37
bit of luck uh you can share some ideas
00:45:40
the other person will find valuable and
00:45:43
uh you might pick up some from them and
00:45:45
there's no point uh getting emotional
00:45:47
about it. that that it just means that
00:45:48
people go into all these sort of
00:45:50
primordial lizard brain type reactions
00:45:53
and um they stop speaking straight so
00:45:55
they're thinking straight so they're
00:45:56
less likely to share something
00:45:58
interesting with you and they're less
00:45:59
likely to take in what you're sharing
00:46:01
but also your own performance you're
00:46:02
less likely to communicate well if
00:46:04
you're in that state so um look you know
00:46:07
what there's a lot to be there's a lot
00:46:09
to be said for just being chill you know
00:46:12
there's a whole lot of people that could
00:46:14
benefit from just calming the down
00:46:16
and chilling out, you know, and it would
00:46:18
be a lot better off.
00:46:20
>> Sometimes it's it's hard though. Um I
00:46:23
had a Zoom meeting earlier this week. Um
00:46:25
it's a neighbor dispute about the sound
00:46:27
from the TV on my wall and I go in there
00:46:29
and I plan to be chill.
00:46:31
>> Yeah.
00:46:31
>> And then something happens and you see
00:46:32
the red mist and and as soon I I
00:46:35
immediately afterwards I regret it cuz I
00:46:37
know I've lost when you lose your call
00:46:39
in an argument, you know you've lost the
00:46:41
argument, right?
00:46:41
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. So
00:46:44
>> can anyone teach themselves to do that?
00:46:46
>> Yeah. I think you can because and
00:46:49
ultimately it just requires reflection.
00:46:51
So it's like any any good sports team or
00:46:53
any uh you know airplane pilot. You have
00:46:56
to work out what happened and go back.
00:46:58
So you I've got better over over the
00:47:01
years and the times that I've lost
00:47:03
support is actually when I've really had
00:47:04
a go at a jouro because people
00:47:06
ultimately say okay well you know we
00:47:08
don't like the Jouro but you're supposed
00:47:10
to be better than that. So you know
00:47:12
that's um that's really useful to useful
00:47:14
to remember. Is it frustrating doing
00:47:17
that media stuff when like say Jack Tame
00:47:19
for example on that show Q&A by the way
00:47:21
that Q&A show is that live? Is that
00:47:23
early on a Sunday morning or is that
00:47:24
>> you usually live? Sometimes Jack
00:47:26
pre-records,
00:47:27
>> right? So you you you're there early on
00:47:28
a Sunday morning like what sort of time?
00:47:30
>> Uh well the show starts at 9:00. So if
00:47:32
you're first up, you're probably there
00:47:33
at about 8 and then they do makeup and
00:47:36
stuff.
00:47:36
>> Yeah, it feels like a gotcha sort of
00:47:38
show like they're trying to
00:47:40
>> not just you but whoever they have on,
00:47:41
they're trying to trip you up.
00:47:42
>> I really like Jack. Um, I think he's one
00:47:45
of the more thoughtful uh good faith
00:47:47
actors in politics, but he has a thing
00:47:50
and he maybe he'll watch this. Just so
00:47:52
you know, we see you, Jack. Um, we he'll
00:47:56
he'll have some sort of um gotcha thing
00:47:59
and so he'll ask reasonable questions,
00:48:01
let the audience understand where you're
00:48:02
coming from. Then he'll have his gotcha
00:48:04
thing and he'll sort of stick at that
00:48:05
for a few minutes in the middle and then
00:48:07
he'll realize it's not going anywhere
00:48:08
and then you just move on back to
00:48:10
normal. and you just you just know the
00:48:12
middle of the interview that Jack's
00:48:13
gonna do it and you're like it's not
00:48:15
really gonna get anyone anywhere but
00:48:16
whatever. Um so you know that's that's
00:48:19
Jack, but I actually think he's one of
00:48:20
the better and more thoughtful people
00:48:22
out there.
00:48:22
>> Who who do you get nervous about? I had
00:48:24
um Dr. Ashley Bloomfield on the podcast
00:48:27
a couple of years ago and he told me
00:48:28
during um the pandemic when he had a
00:48:30
husking morning on ZB him and his team
00:48:32
had be up at like 3:00 a.m. um just
00:48:36
reading the notes in anticipation of
00:48:39
where husking was going to go. Obviously
00:48:41
a husking's more right leaning so I
00:48:43
suppose you'd get an an easier ride but
00:48:45
do you get nervous for these?
00:48:46
>> Um husk is one you got to be very very
00:48:50
careful about because he can turn so
00:48:52
quickly. Um, but I I usually uh have
00:48:56
good interviews on his show. Not always,
00:48:58
but usually. Um, there's no one I I
00:49:01
really get especially uh worried about
00:49:03
or worried about at all to be honest
00:49:05
because at the end of the day um you
00:49:07
know, we got a certain amount of policy
00:49:10
and ideas and attitudes to offer New
00:49:12
Zealand. Uh we're going to get those
00:49:14
across and uh if the journalist decides
00:49:16
to be a dick, then that's a real shame
00:49:18
and people will probably see that. and
00:49:20
if they don't decide to be a dick, we'll
00:49:22
get more stuff across and everything
00:49:23
will go well. So, you know, ultimately
00:49:25
they they're making the choice and
00:49:27
frankly the media has more to answer for
00:49:31
and more trouble. I mean, you look,
00:49:33
we're sitting here today. I mean, this
00:49:35
morning, uh, the Christ Church Press has
00:49:38
had to print an apology because they
00:49:40
hired a person, um, who
00:49:44
they hired a person who, um, had, um,
00:49:48
uh, been working for the health
00:49:51
coalition, which was a lobby group
00:49:53
opposed to the school lunch program.
00:49:55
This person gets hired by the Christ
00:49:56
Church Press, then writes a whole lot of
00:49:58
stories criticizing me and the school
00:50:00
lunch program without declaring that
00:50:02
just a second ago they were like a
00:50:03
lobbyist against it. And I just think
00:50:06
for the integrity of stuff, for the
00:50:07
integrity of the Christ Church Press,
00:50:09
and you know, by contagion, the entire
00:50:11
media, that's bad. Um, far out. I
00:50:15
mean, I think um, you know, Chenade
00:50:17
Boucher got a huge amount to answer for
00:50:19
that that's been allowed to happen in a
00:50:21
a company that she runs. Uh so look, you
00:50:25
know, they've got a problem with trust
00:50:27
and stuff like that. It just underlines
00:50:29
it. Uh doesn't worry me so much.
00:50:31
>> Yeah.
00:50:33
>> Not a journalist, but um yeah, there was
00:50:35
a a viral moment from uh Wangi earlier
00:50:37
this year where you're doing like a
00:50:39
media standup. Is that what they called
00:50:40
them? Like a media standup and Guy
00:50:43
Williams, a comedian. Um he starts sort
00:50:45
of heckling you. Um, yeah. I I look look
00:50:49
I thought you handled yourself really
00:50:51
well, but if you went on a a Guy
00:50:52
Williams sort of thread, they'd probably
00:50:54
say he handled himself very well. It's
00:50:57
all It's all subjective, isn't it? Um,
00:51:00
but yeah. How's that for you? Is that
00:51:01
annoying? Is it frustrating? Is it
00:51:03
funny?
00:51:04
>> Well, I mean, Guy Williams, I thought,
00:51:06
did us a huge favor cuz um the the rest
00:51:10
of the standup was actually a very good
00:51:13
one. There are a lot of journalists
00:51:14
there who I actually thought asked good
00:51:17
questions for the most part and and I I
00:51:19
thought I answered them, you know, was
00:51:21
great, but I I thought compared with how
00:51:23
I normally go, I thought I answer them
00:51:25
pretty well. Uh so that was all great
00:51:27
stuff and uh then of course Guy by doing
00:51:31
his whole thing helped ensure that, you
00:51:34
know, hundreds of thousands of people
00:51:35
would see it. Um so I I got to thank
00:51:38
him.
00:51:41
>> Yeah, you had some good lines in that.
00:51:43
Do you um have were you a good debater
00:51:44
at school?
00:51:45
>> No, no, no. God, no. No. I I wasn't in
00:51:48
debating. I was
00:51:49
>> I wasn't interested in I was interested
00:51:50
in rugby uh and also rugby and and and a
00:51:54
bit of rugby was my main interest at
00:51:56
school.
00:51:57
>> Yeah.
00:51:58
>> One one more thing sort of media related
00:51:59
before we move on from this completely.
00:52:01
Um there's a clip I found online
00:52:03
yesterday uh while researching this
00:52:05
interview from your time in Canada. You
00:52:07
had a thick Canadian accent.
00:52:09
>> Oh, I know. Yeah.
00:52:11
>> What was that all about? Was it
00:52:12
something you adopted in order to fit in
00:52:14
or to accelerate your career?
00:52:17
>> No, I I I it it happens naturally. I
00:52:20
mean, it it's interesting. Some people
00:52:21
do, some people don't. Um, so I mean, my
00:52:24
partner, Alex still has quite an English
00:52:27
uh accent from living over there for 10
00:52:29
years. And I I don't know. I don't think
00:52:31
she did that deliberately. Um, I didn't
00:52:33
I'll give you one example. Um, there was
00:52:35
a beer uh called a a cocon
00:52:40
e. Uh, so it must be a First Nations uh
00:52:44
word and um you go into a bar and ask
00:52:48
for a cocon and they give you a coke and
00:52:49
ice. Well, you got to learn to say cocky
00:52:52
and then you get what you want which is
00:52:54
a beer, right? So, you got to make
00:52:56
yourself understood. And what I found
00:52:59
was it was mostly just about being
00:53:01
understood and you just sort of
00:53:02
naturally take this on. Uh, and uh, you
00:53:06
know, when I came back, it went away,
00:53:07
but but it was certainly sort of a
00:53:09
necessary thing.
00:53:11
>> Uh, not not something that I ever did
00:53:12
deliberately. I see people online say
00:53:14
it's a fake Canadian accent. I
00:53:15
deliberately I I didn't. I just wanted a
00:53:17
beer.
00:53:18
>> Well, I sort of find when I go to
00:53:19
America, like if you go to IHOP or
00:53:22
somewhere like you have to ask for bacon
00:53:23
and eggs
00:53:24
>> cuz if you say eggs, they they can't
00:53:26
figure out what the word you're trying
00:53:27
to say would be.
00:53:28
>> Yeah. And trying to explain you're from
00:53:29
Oakuckland. Oakuckland. Auckland. No,
00:53:32
Auckland.
00:53:32
>> Yeah. You learn very quickly there's
00:53:34
word and you need to say force it
00:53:35
because if you say tap they don't know
00:53:36
what you're talking about. Oh, they
00:53:38
would. There's a bunch of words in his
00:53:40
pin.
00:53:40
>> Do you There was um a former prime
00:53:42
minister of New Zealand, Jim Bulier,
00:53:43
that did the same thing. He was an
00:53:44
accent adopter but in his own country.
00:53:46
So yes, yes, he had the Irish guy and he
00:53:50
started Yeah.
00:53:51
>> Well, whoever you know um Yeah. Whatever
00:53:54
he you country he was entertaining the
00:53:57
person from he'd sort of like mirror
00:53:58
their accent. Do you do that or you only
00:54:00
do it when you're in other countries?
00:54:01
>> I don't think so. So, I um I I met with
00:54:04
the uh debt PM of Malaysia the other
00:54:07
day. I certainly hope I didn't.
00:54:10
>> I don't think you're allowed to do that.
00:54:11
>> And if I did, I hope he didn't notice.
00:54:13
>> Yeah. Hey, you mentioned um your your
00:54:16
partner before. So, Alexandra.
00:54:17
>> Yep.
00:54:18
>> So, she's she's a New Zealander, but she
00:54:20
spent time in the UK.
00:54:21
>> Yep.
00:54:21
>> Yeah. So, you got engaged in the US over
00:54:24
summer. Where was it? On the beach. Was
00:54:26
it Venice?
00:54:28
>> Santa Monica. Which beach in California?
00:54:30
>> Uh well, it wasn't a beach. It was one
00:54:32
of those if you've ever driven from um
00:54:35
LA north the there's the uh Pacific
00:54:38
Coast Highway which I've driven a few
00:54:40
times and it's a beautiful uh stretch
00:54:42
and uh anyway the I had a plan but
00:54:45
unfortunately um it's not only us that
00:54:47
have orange cones. The whole thing was
00:54:49
blocked by a slip. So then had to get on
00:54:52
the highway, drive up to San Francisco
00:54:53
and back down again. Anyway, um we got
00:54:56
to a place and we're just walking and I
00:54:58
I had the the ring in my uh jeans and
00:55:02
then you couldn't make this up, but
00:55:04
there's actually a pod of dolphins and I
00:55:07
thought, sheesh, it's time to go. Like,
00:55:09
you're not going to get dolphin, like,
00:55:10
you know, you you couldn't you couldn't
00:55:12
pay for this. Uh so, yeah, it was it was
00:55:14
a good time for us. Yeah.
00:55:16
>> So, what did you do? Was she expecting
00:55:18
it at all?
00:55:19
>> Um I I think so. I think so. Uh because
00:55:23
I'd been relying on one of her best
00:55:25
friends for um ring design and I I don't
00:55:28
trust them not not to leak.
00:55:29
>> Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:55:31
>> Then did you did you put much thought
00:55:33
into what you were going to say? Did you
00:55:35
get get on one knee? Oh, something some
00:55:38
things too too uh too private. But um
00:55:41
fair to fair to say that it wasn't the
00:55:44
um orchestrated uh you know classic uh
00:55:48
romantic proposal that um that that that
00:55:51
you're supposed to do, but it worked. So
00:55:53
>> why um Yeah. Yeah. Why Why don't you
00:55:57
want to elaborate on that? Um, oh, just
00:56:00
cuz just cuz it wasn't wasn't possibly
00:56:02
uh as as perfect as hopes, but I managed
00:56:05
to managed to get a result. So, you
00:56:07
know,
00:56:08
>> so you'd been together for a couple of
00:56:09
years. What was what was the meet cute?
00:56:11
How did you meet?
00:56:12
>> Um, we got set up actually by friends,
00:56:15
uh, mutual friends. So, uh, someone that
00:56:18
Alex had, um, had worked with as a sort
00:56:21
of student or intern or graduate or
00:56:23
whatever. and um somebody who um uh I
00:56:28
had a friend of someone that I'd knocked
00:56:30
on the door of as a politician. So it
00:56:32
was sort of a a work related um uh
00:56:35
connection.
00:56:37
>> Did you ask her dad for permission
00:56:39
before I traditional sort of thing?
00:56:42
Maybe she doesn't have that relationship
00:56:43
with her dad. Maybe it's not necessary.
00:56:45
But
00:56:45
>> yeah, and unfortunately her dad um is
00:56:48
not with us, so that I have to um didn't
00:56:51
have that option. Um, no. I'm I'm sort
00:56:54
of of the view that um, and you could
00:56:56
say ask your mom, but I I'm sort of of
00:56:59
the view it's a bit old-fashioned. I
00:57:01
mean, that's from the days when um, you
00:57:03
know, daughters were kind of property of
00:57:06
fathers and you sort of, you know, we
00:57:07
don't do that anymore.
00:57:08
>> So, have you made wedding plans or
00:57:10
>> Oh, we have. We have. Yep. They're um
00:57:13
they're top secret, but they're they're
00:57:14
underway and uh we are just finalizing a
00:57:18
few details um for the summer. So, yeah.
00:57:20
>> Wonderful. Who did she vote from in the
00:57:22
last election?
00:57:23
>> Uh, well, we got a secret ballot, but um
00:57:25
I certainly hope she voted the right
00:57:27
way.
00:57:28
>> What What about her family? What were
00:57:29
you her mom? Any siblings? What way do
00:57:32
they vote? Do they do they like Do they
00:57:35
>> They obviously like you as a person.
00:57:37
>> Yeah, I think so. Her family have some
00:57:40
some pretty strong exup supporting
00:57:42
markers, but um I wouldn't badger them
00:57:44
because it might be a bit embarrassing
00:57:45
if they voted the wrong way. So anyway,
00:57:47
>> there was an article in the uh in a New
00:57:49
Zealand Women's Weekly and yeah, have a
00:57:51
water. Have a water. You're getting a
00:57:52
bit parched, are you?
00:57:55
>> In um a Women's Weekly article in 2021,
00:57:58
um there was a quote from you. We all
00:58:00
hope to find a real connection. Being
00:58:02
effectively married to Parliament gets
00:58:03
in the way a little bit. Um
00:58:06
yeah, so you managed to find love as
00:58:09
well as you being perhaps the busiest in
00:58:11
your political career. Are you going to
00:58:13
stick with politics? you were sort of
00:58:15
indicating that you'd give it away for
00:58:16
the right person.
00:58:18
>> Yeah, I guess I'm I'm I'm lucky I found
00:58:20
the the right person who is equally busy
00:58:24
and you know, she's a a smart business
00:58:26
woman. Uh she's building an incredible
00:58:29
company and I'm just so impressed with
00:58:31
what she's doing. It's very very cool.
00:58:33
Uh and um she even, you know, has the
00:58:36
generosity to to ask for my advice
00:58:38
sometimes, which I'm sure she was just
00:58:40
being kind. Uh, so when you've got
00:58:43
someone who's equally driven and equally
00:58:46
um, you know, doing their own thing, it
00:58:48
kind of works, which maybe I hadn't
00:58:50
anticipated,
00:58:51
>> maybe I should have anticipated. It's
00:58:53
pretty obvious now. Uh, so look, we're
00:58:55
in a we're in a good space and I I have
00:58:57
no plans of uh going anywhere much as my
00:59:00
uh might might get my enemies watching
00:59:02
your podcast if they don't already, but
00:59:04
um, you know, uh, but look, I I don't
00:59:07
want to be in politics forever. I'm
00:59:09
really clear about that. I I want to
00:59:10
leave an ACT party that I can vote for
00:59:13
and and not have to do it myself. And I
00:59:15
think anyone in any kind of business,
00:59:17
you know, your objective should be not
00:59:19
to create a job for yourself, but to
00:59:21
create an institution that delivers a a
00:59:25
a service without you necessarily
00:59:28
needing to be there doing it. Um, that's
00:59:30
that's the real success because then
00:59:31
you're raising other people's
00:59:32
productivity and helping them achieve
00:59:34
stuff. And that's what I want to do for
00:59:35
ACTMPs ultimately.
00:59:37
How's the how's the whole backlash thing
00:59:39
been for her? Like she's been um by your
00:59:42
side through this whole um re-election
00:59:44
process and the whole treaties principal
00:59:46
uh treaty principal bill. Um it's a
00:59:48
whole new world for her.
00:59:50
>> Yeah, it is. And I think for anyone it's
00:59:53
it's kind of unusual like um she's been
00:59:56
down to parliament with me and um you
01:00:00
know sort of struck by the fact that you
01:00:03
know you can work part these people on
01:00:05
on TV are your worst enemies but you
01:00:07
actually walk past them in the corridor
01:00:09
or could end up standing in the lift
01:00:10
with them. Uh so that's kind of weird
01:00:13
and uh you know just the fact that
01:00:15
people are um you know able to to write
01:00:18
stuff about you in the paper and she
01:00:20
said oh can we stop them? I said
01:00:21
unfortunately we can't actually control
01:00:22
the herald. In some countries you could
01:00:24
uh but not here. Uh so you know there's
01:00:28
there's certainly things that I think
01:00:29
would be unusual to any person and
01:00:32
certainly you know often it's that
01:00:34
criticism of me that it's actually
01:00:37
people around me who are more worried
01:00:39
about it than I am because I've sort of
01:00:40
got this kind of pragmatic resilience
01:00:42
you know St. Francis of Aisi thing going
01:00:44
on. Other people worry about it a bit
01:00:46
more but also acclimatize and she's I
01:00:50
think in a fairly stable space about it
01:00:52
now. M who would she say the real David
01:00:54
Seymour is?
01:00:56
>> Oh, look, she she's a real sympathizer.
01:00:59
So, I think she would say that I am a
01:01:03
very kind and thoughtful person, a very
01:01:05
driven person, a person that is doing
01:01:07
what they do because they have the
01:01:09
country's best interests at heart. I
01:01:11
mean, she she sees that uh I spend a lot
01:01:14
of time uh have a bunch of conflict that
01:01:17
is kind of more the norm than the
01:01:18
exception. Like hopefully in most
01:01:20
workplaces, conflict's the exception. In
01:01:22
my business, it's the norm. And you
01:01:25
wouldn't do that for malevolent aims. I
01:01:27
mean, you don't do it so you can uh you
01:01:29
know, skip the uh airport security for a
01:01:33
week every few months.
01:01:35
Uh some people say you're you're well
01:01:37
paid and and that is true, but once you
01:01:40
put in hours, job security, uh and a few
01:01:44
other unwelcome things, it may not be as
01:01:47
great as um as people think it's cracked
01:01:49
up to be. So, you know, I I think she
01:01:52
would say, "Look, I I I see what what
01:01:55
the job takes from you. Uh the only
01:01:57
reason you do it is if you had benign
01:01:59
intentions." And I think that's true of
01:02:00
most politicians.
01:02:03
>> I I applauded you before for your um
01:02:05
like conflict style or communication
01:02:07
style. Um but I can imagine like in a
01:02:09
romantic relationship, a committed
01:02:10
relationship, it would be bloody
01:02:12
annoying. It would be frustrating.
01:02:14
Are you the same at home? you know, you
01:02:17
just measured and calm. Sometimes if
01:02:20
you're having some sort of conflict in a
01:02:21
relationship, I'm sure she'd want you to
01:02:22
get a bit animated.
01:02:24
>> Well, yeah. I I mean, it's it can also
01:02:27
be quite effective to suck the oxygen
01:02:30
out of the situation, but um but also I
01:02:34
mean, you know, nor normally I I work on
01:02:37
the basis that unless they can give me a
01:02:40
compelling reason why I'm wrong, then
01:02:44
then I'm right. uh with Alex it's the
01:02:46
inverse of that. I work on the basis
01:02:48
that unless I can give a compelling
01:02:50
reason why I'm right the default is that
01:02:52
I'm wrong. So in that sense it's a
01:02:54
different different outcome or a
01:02:56
different starting point.
01:02:58
>> Um one thing we discussed last time you
01:02:59
came on the podcast a couple of years
01:03:01
ago was um
01:03:03
the ultimate act of love that your mom
01:03:05
did before she passed.
01:03:07
>> Um she recorded DVDs for you and your
01:03:10
two brothers um to give to your life
01:03:12
partners when you found the right
01:03:14
person. At the time of doing the podcast
01:03:16
in 2023, you hadn't found that committed
01:03:19
relationship. You'd never seen the DVD.
01:03:20
You've never watched it. Yes. Um you're
01:03:22
in a position now where you're engaged
01:03:23
to be married.
01:03:24
>> Has um Alexandra seen the DVD from your
01:03:27
mom?
01:03:28
>> Uh well, there have been developments.
01:03:30
>> Uh we got the DVD out. We got the DVD
01:03:35
player. We hooked it up to the TV. We
01:03:37
put it in. We pressed play. It had a
01:03:40
menu which I'd completely forgotten
01:03:42
about which you can navigate through. We
01:03:44
were all poised to watch it. It was a
01:03:46
poant and special motion moment. Sorry.
01:03:49
Um but tragically it was the wrong DVD.
01:03:54
So
01:03:55
>> what was Well, she made a few. There was
01:03:58
one generic one that had um funeral
01:04:01
scenes and her general message that she
01:04:04
gave at the funeral. Um, however, uh,
01:04:07
the actual DVD is MIA. So, I I've talked
01:04:11
to my dad about it. I'm going to
01:04:14
organize a search. Of course, I got to
01:04:16
go to Feray where he lives and have time
01:04:18
to, you know, do a search party to
01:04:21
figure out what the hell's going on. So,
01:04:23
look,
01:04:24
we're still committed to watching the
01:04:26
DVD. However, there's been some there's
01:04:28
been some complications.
01:04:29
>> Oh my god. All that anticipation.
01:04:31
>> Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know. It
01:04:33
was um yeah, it was a bit of a let down.
01:04:36
>> Um how was that though? Even though it
01:04:38
wasn't the right DVD, sitting down um
01:04:40
with this woman that you love,
01:04:42
>> seeing your mom on screen as as she was
01:04:45
you before she passed 20 years ago.
01:04:47
>> Yeah.
01:04:48
>> Well, I'd forgotten how Kiwi her her
01:04:50
accent was. Uh, and um, I, you know,
01:04:54
obviously have very, I thought I had
01:04:56
very clear memories, but it was at least
01:04:58
neat to show some video of her talking
01:05:01
cuz she'd done all these messages for
01:05:03
people. She' done a generic one. She
01:05:05
actually spoke at her own funeral. So,
01:05:06
it was neat in a sense to be able to
01:05:09
introduce her beyond photos. Um, just
01:05:12
not the actual message that uh, was
01:05:13
intended for my uh, future beloved. So,
01:05:16
we we will locate this DVD, but uh yeah,
01:05:19
it's it's a bit of an anti-limax at this
01:05:21
point.
01:05:22
>> Was it emotional?
01:05:23
>> Uh yeah, of course, because um you know,
01:05:27
she's sort of back from the past. Uh and
01:05:31
she's no longer with us, but she's no
01:05:33
less real uh when you see that. So,
01:05:36
yeah, it was it was quite a a poignant
01:05:39
sort of a experience. Yeah. M
01:05:44
seeing um or experiencing what you've
01:05:47
gone through the past year in terms of
01:05:48
political backlash. Um yeah. Do you do
01:05:50
you wish she was here for that or in
01:05:52
some ways are you from a protective son
01:05:54
point of view? Are you pleased she's not
01:05:55
here for that?
01:05:56
>> Oh I I wish she was here for it. I mean
01:05:58
she was a very determined person. I
01:06:00
should add I also found another DVD in
01:06:03
the case uh which had uh my fifth
01:06:07
birthday with me singing head shoulders
01:06:09
uh knees and toes in ter uh so I was I
01:06:13
was singing and speaking in mai as a
01:06:15
four-year-old um you know long long
01:06:18
before it was cool which I I think some
01:06:20
of I should show some of my uh opponents
01:06:23
who think I'm there to take away the le
01:06:25
but uh anyway uh look I I think um you
01:06:28
know she was a determined person and I
01:06:31
obviously you wish she was here. Um
01:06:33
there's there's nothing that's happened
01:06:35
in the last year that that is worth her
01:06:37
not being there. That's for sure.
01:06:38
>> Yeah.
01:06:39
>> Well, thanks for sharing that. On um
01:06:42
children, have you discussed children
01:06:44
with Alexandra?
01:06:45
>> Uh yeah, we have. Um and uh you know,
01:06:48
all in all in good time. We've just got
01:06:50
one one step at a time at this point. So
01:06:53
>> how many
01:06:55
>> uh look I I think ultimately life is
01:06:58
what it throws at you and whatever
01:07:00
number you have is is actually the right
01:07:02
number but there seems to be something
01:07:04
good about two um you know not not too
01:07:07
many not too lonely
01:07:09
>> and also in terms of convenience as well
01:07:12
you know
01:07:13
>> well that yeah you don't want to be
01:07:15
outnumbered I mean um you know it helps
01:07:18
helps to at least have a an even a tied
01:07:20
vote if not a majority So,
01:07:23
>> so from a personal perspective, it seems
01:07:25
like everything's going good. You're
01:07:26
happy. You're a happy man.
01:07:27
>> Oh, look, I'm I'm just in one of those
01:07:29
stages of life that you just have to
01:07:32
live for. I mean, there's crazy stuff
01:07:34
happening every every day. There's
01:07:36
conflict, there's sleep deprivation. Uh,
01:07:39
but we are doing a bunch of good things.
01:07:41
Um, uh, you know, won't go through every
01:07:43
portfolio and every policy that we're
01:07:45
changing. We're doing a lot. You know, I
01:07:46
would say that the ACT party is is
01:07:48
having an outsiz influence, a
01:07:50
disproportionate influence uh on how
01:07:53
this government's going. Really proud of
01:07:54
that. Um you know, we still have the
01:07:56
party polling well. We've got a lot to
01:07:58
lot to talk about. Um and uh we've got
01:08:01
the big challenge of an election next
01:08:02
year uh and a a blossoming relationship.
01:08:05
So you know, you'd have to be
01:08:08
>> you'd have to be pretty happy. It's just
01:08:09
not for the faint-hearted.
01:08:10
>> You for ACT to be strong, national sort
01:08:12
of needs to be strong, doesn't it? Would
01:08:14
that be fair to say? What? What? What's
01:08:16
up with um Christopher Luxon? I had him
01:08:18
on the podcast. I found him to be like a
01:08:20
perfectly lovely man, like ruthlessly
01:08:22
self-disciplined and and organized and
01:08:24
and yeah, quite quite nice and
01:08:26
charismatic. Why did he get booed at the
01:08:28
net? Why don't people like him?
01:08:30
>> Um well, I'm I mean, I'm not surprised
01:08:32
that any politician would get booed at
01:08:34
the net. I mean, if you if you look at
01:08:36
the polling um for any politician who's
01:08:40
got any profile, uh there's going to be,
01:08:42
you know, 10 20% uh who really don't
01:08:46
like them and then a few more who just
01:08:48
don't like them, a few that are neutral,
01:08:49
a few that like them, a few that really
01:08:50
like them. So, most politicians are
01:08:53
going to have, you know, one out of
01:08:55
every 10 people in that in that room who
01:08:58
who really don't like them. It's just
01:08:59
the way it is. And um so I I I wouldn't
01:09:02
read too much into it. Um, what I know
01:09:04
of Chris is that, as you say, he's
01:09:07
incredibly disciplined. I think he likes
01:09:09
the word intentional. Uh, and he's
01:09:13
someone that's basically just set up his
01:09:14
life with a series of goals and knocked
01:09:16
them off. And, uh, you know, there's
01:09:18
something to admire about that.
01:09:20
>> What about you and Winston? When when
01:09:23
this coalition was formed, by the way,
01:09:24
it took 20 days, eh, 20 days of
01:09:26
meetings. Why did it take 20 days after
01:09:27
the meetings to form a coalition
01:09:29
government?
01:09:29
>> I think in partly took a long time
01:09:31
because we didn't know the result. So um
01:09:34
after the election it looked like act
01:09:35
and national together could form a
01:09:37
government and then the late votes came
01:09:39
out and it turned out we couldn't so we
01:09:41
had to form a three-way. So partly
01:09:43
because we didn't actually know the
01:09:44
result for like 3 weeks um and then it
01:09:45
took a bit longer after that cuz we had
01:09:47
to negotiate it all. There's never been
01:09:49
three parties in a cabinet. So I think
01:09:51
that was always going to take some time.
01:09:53
But your question about Winston, I mean
01:09:56
what I found is that uh you know we we
01:09:58
actually have a pretty good working
01:10:00
relationship. uh you know we're both
01:10:02
professionals. We both know that people
01:10:04
want to see our government succeed.
01:10:06
There's obviously huge differences uh in
01:10:10
terms of our outlook. For example, uh
01:10:12
you know, I think that we need to get
01:10:14
more money into New Zealand. Uh they
01:10:16
would say, well, New Zealand first. We
01:10:18
don't like overseas investment. We've
01:10:21
negotiated through that and we've got a
01:10:23
half decent uh overseas investment
01:10:25
reform coming out of the government. So,
01:10:27
yeah, on balance pretty good.
01:10:28
>> Do you like each other?
01:10:30
>> Oh, no. Well, I mean I I don't but I
01:10:33
don't think I don't think anyone goes to
01:10:35
politics to to find people they like. Um
01:10:38
you know I think um but but that I I
01:10:41
mean I wouldn't expect anyone to say
01:10:42
that they uh liked everyone they work
01:10:45
with. The question is can you be
01:10:46
effective? You know
01:10:47
>> so I can't remember who who did we talk
01:10:50
about in the first podcast. You
01:10:51
mentioned Colin Craig. He always made
01:10:52
your skin crawl.
01:10:53
>> I never physically touched the guy. He
01:10:55
tried to shake hands with me a few times
01:10:56
and I you know
01:10:57
>> can't remember. I think there was
01:10:58
someone else. I I could be wrong, but
01:10:59
but you're Winston, so you'd never catch
01:11:00
up for a whiskey or anything.
01:11:02
>> No. Um, but
01:11:03
>> is there a mutual respect?
01:11:05
>> Uh, I hope so. I I mean, you know,
01:11:08
Winston has been the great survivor of
01:11:10
New Zealand politics. He he loves being
01:11:12
an officer and he's managed to get back
01:11:14
there even when he's um been voted out.
01:11:17
He he always comes back and there is a
01:11:19
skill in that. So, you know, you've got
01:11:21
to admire it. Um I would hope that he'd
01:11:24
say similar things, but that's up to
01:11:26
him. I mean for me politics is not so
01:11:28
much about being there. It's about
01:11:30
improving the policy and and ideally uh
01:11:34
getting getting out and getting your
01:11:35
life back having left the country a
01:11:37
better place. So different objectives.
01:11:39
>> What about Chloe?
01:11:41
>> Yeah.
01:11:41
>> Do you like each other? Very different
01:11:43
politically obviously but you know
01:11:46
>> I think it's a sad situation. I I I've
01:11:49
had a good relationship with Khloe for
01:11:51
most of the time that we've been in
01:11:53
parliament. Uh I've always had a bit of
01:11:55
time for her. obviously think that, you
01:11:56
know, there's aspects where I think she
01:11:58
policies are just crazy. But
01:12:00
>> I should say the same about you though,
01:12:01
no doubt.
01:12:01
>> Probably. Yeah. Um I I think she's
01:12:04
frankly hardened a bit after I
01:12:06
criticized her for chanting the you
01:12:08
know, river to the sea thing. I mean,
01:12:10
you know, that is a a Hamas slogan that
01:12:13
basically says wipe out all the Jews.
01:12:15
And I represent an electorate which has
01:12:17
a lot of Jewish constituents who are
01:12:19
genuinely mortified by that. Um, and for
01:12:23
some reason since that particular
01:12:25
incident, she's had a very different uh
01:12:28
tone on me, which is a shame, but um,
01:12:31
you know, it is what it is.
01:12:33
>> So, she's not getting an invite to the
01:12:34
wedding.
01:12:35
>> Uh, no, no, no. I think probably
01:12:38
unlikely.
01:12:40
>> Who what politicians would be there?
01:12:42
Chris Bishop, you're quite good friends,
01:12:44
aren't you?
01:12:45
>> Huge amount of respect for Bish. Um, you
01:12:48
know, he's someone who genuinely
01:12:50
believes that public policy is the
01:12:54
object of being in politics to leave
01:12:56
better policy so people can unleash
01:12:59
their creativity and build better lives
01:13:01
for themselves. And that's a lot rarer
01:13:04
than you think. You know, there'd be,
01:13:06
>> I would say, um, you know, a dozen
01:13:09
people in parliament uh, who think like
01:13:11
that uh, and 11 of them are in act. Is
01:13:14
there a mistake you wish you could go
01:13:16
back and correct
01:13:18
>> professionally or personally?
01:13:20
>> Um,
01:13:22
look, I I think uh if you Well,
01:13:25
personally, I wish I'd kept playing
01:13:27
rugby. I gave up far too early and I I
01:13:29
just I I wish I I started coaching. I
01:13:32
could do that for the rest of my life.
01:13:34
>> Now, I'd give anything for a game. And I
01:13:36
know that all sorts of things I've never
01:13:38
even heard of before would either snap
01:13:40
or crack or break. So, so that that is a
01:13:42
a tragedy. I mean, I kind of buggered my
01:13:44
knees in Dancing with the Stars, so I
01:13:46
can barely run. But um but but look,
01:13:48
that's that's it's a bit of a humble
01:13:50
brag. I mean, I wish I' I think I think
01:13:54
professionally uh look, I I look at the
01:13:57
2023 election and um I look at how we
01:14:01
went into that. I mean, we're riding
01:14:03
high. Um, we campaigned on real change
01:14:07
like we are going to cut waste,
01:14:11
deregulate,
01:14:12
sell things that we don't need, invest
01:14:14
in things that we do need, uh, we're
01:14:17
going to be really straight on the
01:14:18
treaty relationship. Uh, and if people
01:14:21
don't like that, uh, then we will hold
01:14:24
out until other people come around,
01:14:27
former government, on on terms that New
01:14:29
Zealand needs real change. I think what
01:14:32
we found was that about 2/3 of our
01:14:34
support, they're like, "Yeah, that's
01:14:37
actually what we need." Uh, and those
01:14:39
people remain with us. There was another
01:14:41
third who said, "Uh, look, we we think
01:14:44
you're better than the other guys, but
01:14:46
we just we don't want any trouble. So,
01:14:48
sorry sunshine, we're off." Um and so
01:14:50
that misjudgment of how badly the
01:14:52
country, you know, how badly I think the
01:14:54
country needs change versus what a
01:14:56
coalition of voters need change. Um that
01:14:59
was a miscalculation. Um but I also feel
01:15:03
that as time goes on, it becomes clearer
01:15:07
that that actually for New Zealand to
01:15:09
succeed the way it could, uh we're going
01:15:12
to need to be a bit more bold about the
01:15:16
changes that we make. M what about
01:15:19
regrets?
01:15:21
>> That was a regret.
01:15:22
>> Um
01:15:25
>> uh
01:15:27
look, not a lot. I mean, you know, I've
01:15:30
done
01:15:32
11 11 years uh next month. Uh showed up,
01:15:36
done my job, helped my constituents,
01:15:38
growing my party, uh you know, been good
01:15:41
to my staff. We got amazing culture,
01:15:43
almost no turnover, uh all of that. and
01:15:47
and we've introduced policies I think
01:15:48
are good for New Zealand. So, um you
01:15:51
know, sure that you could you could find
01:15:53
something if you wanted to, but I
01:15:54
actually actually think uh you know,
01:15:57
there's areas we could have done better.
01:15:58
The the things I just thing I just
01:16:00
mentioned is a good example of that. Um
01:16:02
but on balance, you know, I'm pretty
01:16:04
proud of what what I've managed to
01:16:05
achieve so far. The the trick is to keep
01:16:07
it going.
01:16:08
>> What about flaws? What are your biggest
01:16:10
flaws?
01:16:11
>> What would Alexander say or your
01:16:13
brothers?
01:16:14
Oh, look, I I think that um there is a
01:16:19
balance between being really clear in
01:16:22
your convictions and knowing exactly uh
01:16:26
where you want to go and what has to
01:16:27
happen and coalition building. So, there
01:16:30
are politicians who basically they live
01:16:33
for the polls. They want to be popular.
01:16:35
They want to be liked. Uh and they can
01:16:37
be very successful. They can get really
01:16:40
high votes. um and they can be in office
01:16:42
and they can do but when they're gone
01:16:45
there's there's not a trace. Um then
01:16:48
there's people who are absolutely
01:16:50
strident and they know what they want
01:16:51
and they know what they believe and
01:16:52
they're not going to compromise one bit.
01:16:54
Um and I'm, you know, no one's got that
01:16:57
balance right in my view, but I'm I'm
01:16:59
more at the strident end of it. I think
01:17:00
the world needs people like that, but
01:17:03
it's probably cost me a bit too.
01:17:06
>> Yeah. It seems like there's three things
01:17:07
in New Zealand that you just don't want
01:17:08
to go near.
01:17:10
one's the treaty um capital gains tax
01:17:13
and um the age of the pension.
01:17:16
>> Would that be fair to say?
01:17:18
>> That's probably a learning from this
01:17:19
year, right?
01:17:21
>> Yeah.
01:17:21
>> Difficult conversations that the country
01:17:23
is perhaps just not prepared to have
01:17:24
yet.
01:17:25
>> Well, the the implication behind that is
01:17:27
that they're conversations where we
01:17:29
should be braver. Um I don't agree on
01:17:31
the capital gains tax. I I think it you
01:17:33
know, people people say that a capital
01:17:35
gains tax is going to help with the
01:17:37
housing market. Oh, no, it's not. I
01:17:39
mean, you look at Sydney, Vancouver, LA,
01:17:40
London, Hong Kong. I mean, they all have
01:17:41
capital gains tax. They all have house
01:17:43
prices out of control. So,
01:17:44
>> capital gains tax ain't going to fix
01:17:46
housing. Uh, what it is going to do is
01:17:48
complicate the tax system. And it's also
01:17:50
got a certain amount of the tall poppy
01:17:52
in it. So, it's kind of like, oh,
01:17:54
someone else has done well. How do we
01:17:56
take more money off their personal
01:17:58
business or the shares they own or the
01:18:00
house or whatever? We got to we got to
01:18:01
find a way to my my my problems are
01:18:03
caused by someone else's success. I'm
01:18:05
going to find a politician to bloody
01:18:06
take it off and give it to me. So, I
01:18:07
agree. The other two I think you know as
01:18:10
we've discussed in this the the
01:18:13
prevailing concept of the treaty as a
01:18:16
partnership between races is not
01:18:17
sustainable. We've we've got to go there
01:18:19
and I believe it will come back. Um and
01:18:21
then the the other one was was the the
01:18:24
third rail you you mentioned
01:18:26
>> retirement age.
01:18:26
>> Retirement age. Yeah. Well, again, I
01:18:28
mean, unpopular to say it, I know, but
01:18:32
the simple maths is that every year, um,
01:18:36
60,000 people turn 65 and about 30,000
01:18:40
people move on. So, you've got 30,000
01:18:42
more people, uh, getting the super and
01:18:45
as a result, uh, you've got about a
01:18:47
billion and a half of of extra, uh,
01:18:50
expense uh, that the, um, taxpayer is
01:18:53
lumped with. Now, as that goes on, uh,
01:18:57
you know, you get to the stage where
01:18:58
there's a million people over 65. You
01:19:02
know, there's another million or so
01:19:04
under 18. There's 3 million in the
01:19:06
middle. Not all of them are working. Uh,
01:19:09
so you actually end up with about 2
01:19:12
million people working to support 3
01:19:14
million people. It just doesn't add up.
01:19:16
>> So, what can you do about that? Well,
01:19:18
you know, you mentioned my dad. I mean,
01:19:20
he's 73. He's still working. I mean, we
01:19:22
just talked about Winston. He's 82. You
01:19:24
think or 80 anyway? He's well over 65
01:19:27
and still working. Um so I would just
01:19:30
say look, you know, at what point are we
01:19:32
going to start being honest about this?
01:19:35
It's one of the biggest drivers, you
01:19:37
know, a billion and a half extra every
01:19:39
year that we somehow got to stamp up
01:19:41
stump up with a ratio of working
01:19:44
taxpayers to dependent people that that
01:19:46
just can't hold together. And so then
01:19:49
you say, okay, this is not sustainable.
01:19:52
Would you like the change to happen uh
01:19:55
you know sometime in the future
01:19:58
with no warning because there's I don't
01:20:00
know a big natural disaster or a global
01:20:02
recession or you know people just say
01:20:04
right the country is broke no one wants
01:20:06
to buy New Zealand government bonds uh
01:20:08
we can't refinance we've got to cut our
01:20:10
expenditure somehow because it could be
01:20:12
forced on us or do you want to start
01:20:15
saying okay let's let's start making the
01:20:17
change slowly and quick slowly and
01:20:21
immediately and slowly rather than
01:20:24
sometime in the future and rapidly.
01:20:27
>> How's your vulnerability? Are you are
01:20:28
you good at having um you mentally like
01:20:32
you seem to be in a really good spot?
01:20:33
Like you you're very measured. It feels
01:20:35
like you're always sort of rolling at a
01:20:36
five out of 10. You're never getting too
01:20:37
high. You're never getting too low. Are
01:20:39
you are you good at having you
01:20:41
conversations like with your partner or
01:20:42
with close friends if you're not doing
01:20:45
well or if things are getting to you?
01:20:47
Look, I I actually think that, you know,
01:20:50
and I say this, I I started out as um I
01:20:54
I volunteered for Kids Line, which was a
01:20:56
youth counseling thing. I think I talked
01:20:58
about this on the the last uh and
01:21:00
>> we did.
01:21:01
>> Yeah. What I found it's a it's a good
01:21:03
service. Uh it's why I tried to raise
01:21:05
money for it on Dancing with the Stars.
01:21:07
Um now not able to happen. I think we
01:21:09
talked about anyway. My point is that
01:21:12
there's also people who have kind of
01:21:14
gotten into this kind of counseling and
01:21:17
vulnerability and I'm okay, you're okay.
01:21:19
And it it's sort of taken on its own
01:21:21
momentum. And of course, if you say
01:21:23
anything different, people say, "Oh,
01:21:25
you're terrible." But I actually think
01:21:27
that there is something to be said for
01:21:29
just being a bit resilient, saying, "You
01:21:31
got a certain amount of time on Earth.
01:21:33
How about we just make the most of
01:21:35
that?" because if you want to get into a
01:21:37
mass sort of naval gazing exercise, you
01:21:40
can. Um, but it might start to become
01:21:43
its own uh to have its own momentum. And
01:21:47
so I'm I I know that's probably an
01:21:49
unpopular position to take. Um, but
01:21:51
there's also something to be said for
01:21:53
being a bit resilient. I mean, not to
01:21:56
give you a political answer, but I just
01:21:58
look at this thing I got, you know,
01:21:59
people criticizing me for saying that
01:22:01
you're a dropkick if you don't enroll to
01:22:02
vote. I mean, it's as easy as ordering a
01:22:05
pizza. It it it but it costs nothing. Uh
01:22:09
it's a legal requirement. You have three
01:22:11
years to do it. And people say, "Oh, but
01:22:12
what about people that are just so
01:22:14
vulnerable and they can't it's like you
01:22:17
get to live in a democracy. This is all
01:22:18
you have to do. It's simpler than eating
01:22:20
a pizza than ordering a pizza and it's
01:22:22
free. Oh, but you know, it's too hard."
01:22:24
And I just think, you know, everyone's
01:22:26
vulnerable. Everyone's got a problem.
01:22:28
Everyone's medical. I mean, sometimes
01:22:30
life just is hard and stressful. You
01:22:31
just get on with it, you know. It it is.
01:22:34
Yeah, it is. There's a lot of suck in
01:22:36
life.
01:22:36
>> Yeah. Oh, tell me about it. You know,
01:22:38
>> it's the price you pay for this
01:22:39
opportunity of being here. When was the
01:22:41
last time you cried?
01:22:43
>> Uh, probably when mom died. So,
01:22:45
>> really? Like, no. Like 20 years ago.
01:22:47
>> Yeah.
01:22:48
>> No, actually.
01:22:50
>> Yeah.
01:22:52
>> Just not not an overly emotional person
01:22:53
at all. That's David. That's sad if it
01:22:55
if it's been 20 years.
01:22:57
>> Well, again, you know, this you've got
01:22:59
to you've got to cry. you know, you're
01:23:01
you're not a real man if you don't cry.
01:23:03
I mean, come on. Um,
01:23:04
>> no, but it's a wonderful emotion to
01:23:06
experience. It's like um laughter or
01:23:09
anger. It's
01:23:10
>> Oh, I mean, now you're b you're
01:23:11
basically now telling me you got
01:23:12
compulsory crying. This is exactly what
01:23:14
I'm trying to say, you know. And it's
01:23:16
worse. You're sort of trying to make
01:23:18
people feel inadequate for not leaking.
01:23:20
I mean, God,
01:23:21
>> what what about if you if you're
01:23:23
watching um a romcom at high altitude,
01:23:25
like if you're flying in somewhere and
01:23:26
you watch, I don't know, School of Rock
01:23:28
or the Pixar movie Up. Do you not get
01:23:31
emotional at movies ever? Have you seen
01:23:33
the movie Tina?
01:23:35
>> I haven't.
01:23:36
>> Yeah.
01:23:36
>> Um
01:23:38
there are there are a few movies that I
01:23:40
I think are um uh emotion worthy. Um uh
01:23:45
strangely uh I I watched one um about uh
01:23:49
I think it was Suffragette. It was about
01:23:51
the British version of Kate uh Shepherd
01:23:53
and I want to say it was Emily Pankers,
01:23:55
but I might have that wrong. It was a
01:23:57
very emotive uh movie. Um strange one to
01:24:00
pick for some people, but it was was
01:24:02
just neat the way that people had this
01:24:04
strong belief in being able to be who
01:24:07
they uh well just to be equal and to be
01:24:10
treated as free. That really resonates
01:24:12
with me. So does that song. I mentioned
01:24:13
my buddy Guy, you know, a man in
01:24:15
Louisiana never called me by my name and
01:24:17
said, "Boy did this, boy do that." But I
01:24:19
never did complain. I knew he had a good
01:24:21
heart, but he just didn't understand. I
01:24:23
needed to be treated like any other man.
01:24:25
For some reason, those themes of being
01:24:28
treated with equal dignity. Those those
01:24:30
resonate with me.
01:24:34
>> Not even when you watched that DVD with
01:24:36
your fiance the other week.
01:24:37
>> Well, no, cuz I was trying to think
01:24:38
where the right DVD was. Actually,
01:24:42
I'm I'm probably the same as you.
01:24:43
Through my uh through my 20s and 30s, I
01:24:45
don't think I cried. Maybe at my nana's
01:24:47
funeral or something, but um it's an
01:24:48
emotion that I've like embraced and lean
01:24:50
into. It's wonderful. It's nice having a
01:24:52
good cry from time to time.
01:24:55
>> Hey, um well, this has been a fun chat
01:24:56
today.
01:24:57
>> It really has.
01:24:58
>> It's been really enjoyable. Um we'll
01:24:59
have you in again at some stage. It'd be
01:25:01
interesting to compare answers at the
01:25:03
end.
01:25:03
>> Have you cried yet?
01:25:05
>> I'm thinking
01:25:06
>> you get me in every year.
01:25:07
>> Yeah. Well, I have succumbed once you
01:25:10
become a dad. Like, um I haven't had the
01:25:12
the good fortune of having my own
01:25:13
family, but most of my friends say the
01:25:15
the birthing process is quite an
01:25:16
emotional thing to experience. Um but
01:25:19
it'll be just interesting to see if your
01:25:20
reflection and answers would change at
01:25:22
the end of your political career because
01:25:24
obviously now you've got a like Yeah, it
01:25:27
it's political to say you believe in
01:25:29
everything that you've done and you
01:25:30
don't have regrets. Do you know what I
01:25:32
mean? Um yeah, but I I mean there are
01:25:35
give you examples of things I do uh
01:25:37
regret. Um and there's probably others,
01:25:40
but it's also true that um politics
01:25:43
doesn't really reward second guessing.
01:25:45
Um
01:25:46
>> you know,
01:25:46
>> you get called a flip-flop. Is that what
01:25:48
you mean?
01:25:48
>> Well, exactly. Um and uh so, you know,
01:25:52
it probably be probably be good if there
01:25:54
were more rewards uh for confronting
01:25:57
mistakes, but um there's not, so we just
01:25:59
don't make any. H
01:26:01
>> yeah. Wouldn't society be better and
01:26:03
wouldn't it be a better lesson for
01:26:04
everyone involved if you could say
01:26:05
actually I was wrong about this and then
01:26:08
course correct
01:26:09
>> but you just can't it's seem seen as a
01:26:10
political failure to do that isn't it?
01:26:13
>> Uh yeah I I think um you know part of
01:26:16
the issue is that uh if you're the most
01:26:20
informed voter and you're the least
01:26:22
informed voter
01:26:24
you still wake up with the same
01:26:25
government on Sunday morning after the
01:26:27
election. So if you're smart, you'll use
01:26:30
your time for other things that do give
01:26:31
you a direct payback uh rather than uh
01:26:34
investing in being an informed voter who
01:26:36
who gets the same results anyway. And
01:26:39
and and that is the the kernel of why I
01:26:41
think you need to um do less through
01:26:44
government because it's it's not an
01:26:46
informed way of decision-m for the most
01:26:47
part. And one of the things that comes
01:26:50
out of it is you say, well, I think most
01:26:52
of them are probably wrong, but if that
01:26:54
one's but I'm not sure which ones. If
01:26:56
that one is openly saying they're wrong,
01:26:58
then must be them. And so it's partly
01:27:02
just the the sort of information
01:27:03
environment you're in.
01:27:05
>> So election next year, are are you going
01:27:08
to get reelected? Is ACT going to what
01:27:10
do you need like 5% of the vote to get
01:27:12
back in? Well, you need to uh win a seat
01:27:15
and or um get 5%. So, look, at the
01:27:20
moment, ACT holds two electorate seats.
01:27:22
Uh it is um not never guaranteed that
01:27:26
they'll be reelected, but they're
01:27:27
elected by reasonably healthy majorities
01:27:29
in both cases and and in my case elected
01:27:32
for the fourth time. So, you know, that
01:27:34
bodess well, but it's not guaranteed at
01:27:37
all. We continue to work hard to get out
01:27:40
and do street corner meetings and help
01:27:42
our constituents and do all the things
01:27:45
that usually lead to re-election. Um and
01:27:48
uh then there's this question of will
01:27:50
you get 5%. I mean every poll that we've
01:27:52
had since about mid2020 has has been
01:27:57
over 5%. So again uh nothing's
01:28:00
guaranteed but but things bode well. So,
01:28:03
um, based on the information we have
01:28:04
right now, I say we probably will be,
01:28:06
but, um, you know, we can you can lose a
01:28:08
lot and you can gain a lot in a year.
01:28:10
>> If it all ended next year, would you be
01:28:11
happy? Would you be at peace with your
01:28:13
political career?
01:28:14
>> Absolutely. I I mean, you know, I've
01:28:16
I've shown up uh I've argued the case.
01:28:19
I've made some changes that I think are
01:28:21
good for New Zealand. I've taken a whole
01:28:23
lot of people along with me and a lot of
01:28:25
them have had experiences and made
01:28:27
changes and contributed in ways that
01:28:29
they they couldn't have if uh that ACT
01:28:32
vehicle hadn't been there. Um and I I
01:28:35
feel like I've uh you know made the the
01:28:37
most of the the time that I've been
01:28:39
given. And it's possible the voters will
01:28:41
say, "Yeah, that time's up, Sunshine."
01:28:42
Well, that could happen, but but I'd
01:28:44
still be in a in a good place. I mean, I
01:28:46
have on my um on my phone there. Um
01:28:50
that's me with a constituent walking out
01:28:52
of um Starship Hospital. So, it's under
01:28:56
Cararolina Burch and we um we fought for
01:28:58
years for her to be able to live
01:29:00
supported in the home and um that's uh
01:29:04
you know something that I've I've had on
01:29:05
my phone. I think that was about 2019.
01:29:08
>> Um so that really for me is a symbol of
01:29:11
what a local MP can do and I'm really
01:29:13
proud of that. got a not notification
01:29:15
from NT Games as well. Are you a Wordle
01:29:17
guy?
01:29:18
>> Oh, look, I'm I'm addicted. I I
01:29:20
shouldn't tell you. People probably
01:29:21
build me for it, but uh look, I'm I'm
01:29:24
Wordle guy. Connections fiend. Um I've
01:29:27
stopped doing the crossword cuz I
01:29:28
actually do have job. Uh but that was
01:29:31
good. Uh and um I I try and there's one
01:29:34
other Oh, the the one where you got to
01:29:36
line up the um spell the words, whatever
01:29:39
that's called there. I know the one you
01:29:41
mean, but I I can't remember the name
01:29:43
either. Hey, David Seymour, thank you so
01:29:45
much for coming on the podcast. Deputy
01:29:46
Prime Minister of New Zealand.
01:29:48
>> Thank you very much. See you again.
01:29:49
Round two.
01:29:50
>> Thanks.
