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David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love

August 17, 2025 / 01:30:07

This episode features David Seymour, Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand, discussing his political journey, recent controversies, and personal experiences. Key topics include the backlash from the treaty principles bill, his engagement, and reflections on his political career.

The conversation also touches on his engagement and personal life, highlighting the support of his family and the challenges of being in the public eye. Seymour shares insights on his political philosophy, focusing on individual rights and the need for change in New Zealand's political landscape.

TLDR

David Seymour discusses his political challenges, personal life, and reflections on his career as New Zealand's Deputy Prime Minister.

Episode

1:30:07

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Would it be fair to say like this year you've probably been one of the most disliked people in New Zealand? Hannah

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rips up the um treaties principal bill and then they perform a hacker in front of you. What what's that like from your

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perspective? >> It's saddening. Uh because >> for you personally like being the the

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the you person that hacker was aimed at. Is that embarrassing? >> Oh, it's not embarrassing. It's

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embarrassing for them. >> What about Chloe? >> Yeah. >> Do you like each other?

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>> I think it's a sad situation. I I I've had a good relationship with Chloe for

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most of the time. I I think she's frankly hardened a bit after I criticized her for chanting the, you

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know, river to the sea thing. And for some reason since that particular incident, she's had a very different uh

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tone on me, which is a shame. >> On this on the school lunches, um there's a quote from you. Sushi is woke.

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>> What does that mean? >> You know what? I'm I'm just going to

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tell you. >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever

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there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the

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Holland one in To. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.

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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers

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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. Maximize. Generate. Putting performance

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first. David Seymour, welcome back to my podcast. It's great to be back and um I

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just looked at the way you've grown how long you stuck at stuck at it and now

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you've got this huge audience and Flash Studio. You even got you're literally up

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at neon lights. Good for you. >> You asked you asked me to come back on this time.

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>> Yeah. >> I got a phone call out of the blue. I said, "What did I do to deserve this

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phone call?" And can you remember what your line was? >> Yeah. said your rating.

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>> Yeah. So, just to time stamp it, but last time you came on the podcast, it

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was um early in 2023, actually the week that Justindra Adun stood down. >> Yeah.

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>> Um since then, uh lots going on professionally and personally, ACT's

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biggest election result, October 2023. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And uh on a personal perspective, you've

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got engaged. >> Yeah. Well, I figured the the real the real truth is it's not just that you're

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rating. I thought I I got some content for you and I thought, you know, podcasters need content. I try to help

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people where I can. And it's always fun to chat to you. >> I I was thinking maybe it's like um an

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image rehabilitation thing or something like it's Would it be fair to say like

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this year you've probably been one of the most I don't know disliked people in

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New Zealand and New Zealand politics? >> You know, I I think that probably is

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fair if you just look at the numbers of uh people that like and dislike a politician. Bear in mind there's still a

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lot of people who uh support me, but it makes me overall polarizing. You know, I've probably got the biggest group on

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either side of that. Um there's a lot of politicians. Uh about 40 new politicians

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are elected every election and a lot of them uh go through and don't get known.

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Um I certainly haven't had that problem. Uh but yeah, it's fair to say that I I

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like to take on hard issues and I thought, you know what, I I should call Dom and and get on his podcast because

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frankly, I want to talk through uh some of the the issues that have cropped up in the last um year or so. I think

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podcast is a good uh environment to have that discussion and say, "Look, if you

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you know, if you like me, good on you. If you don't, fair enough." Um, but I

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find that there's actually a vacuum of open discussion and a lot of people are

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frustrated. A lot of people are turning to podcasts around the world because they don't trust what they're seeing in

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the news. So, uh, let's see how we go. >> Yeah. Well, the issue that you got with my

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podcast is I'm not I'm I'm I'm fairly dumb. I'm not very politically savvy.

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Um, so you're not going to get um >> a lot of people say that about me,

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>> but um my goal my goal with this is like to um you know get to understand a

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person and understand the way they think through long form conversation and um you know behind everyone's job there

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there's a person. Um but I am keen to get into some of the um some of the some

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of the stuff. It's interesting like I'm from like a media background where there

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is a desperate need to be liked um because you live and die by by your ratings on radio so you need to be liked

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and I suppose to a degree you're the same like you need you need you need name recognition and you need people to

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like you in order to get reelected but um the flip side of that is it's like

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it's not nice when people hate you. So, let let me ask you though um in in radio

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and and that's your domain, but do you need people to like you or do you need

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people to to think that you're effective and you you stand for something? Um,

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personally, I don't mind so much I don't have a need to be liked. Uh it's nice if

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people like you, but um you know, you don't go into politics to be popular. It's a pretty big failure if you do. Uh

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I go into politics because I think that there are better ways to live and we need to change some of our laws to do

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it. Uh so there's a need to be I guess respected as someone who's in it for the

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right reasons and effective but not necessarily liked. There's a difference there.

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>> Yeah. One of the the most popular podcast guests I've had in between you

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coming in now and our last chat was um this woman called Tracy Chapman. Uh Tracy Hickman. I think I sent you a a

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clip from the podcast and >> she had so much gratitude for it. She got to die in May 2024 on her own terms.

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>> Yeah. >> Um you you must get a lot of like messages like that from real life

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examples of um people who have used that bill. >> Yeah, I do. It's I mean she was, you

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know, a very special and spectacular case and um I think the reason I always thought the law would pass is that

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people knew what they'd seen and I think she kind of brought out a lot of the

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rawness of that. So uh but I do I do get notes. Um, I can think of a couple I've

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had just in the last month. You know, almost every couple of weeks, someone will write and say, "I know someone that

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um used it. Um, and uh, you know, we're very grateful we got to uh have the the

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choice and control and the dignity and um, and the ability to plan. Um, someone trying to think who messaged me just the

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other day saying that they were on their way to a sort of living wake. So, people

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are now doing their funeral before they die." Um, which you know is pretty cool

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because I've always thought it would be nice if the person could be there. >> Well, that's what Tracy did. Um, even

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though she was um incredibly unwell like the the day before she went to Phar with

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her sister and her partner and some other family. Um, they went to karaoke that um that night for a couple of songs

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like um Staying Alive and I will survive. And then um the morning of they they drove to a beach which I won't name

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with um the medical professional that was administering the drugs and they stopped by Wild Bean on the way and she

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had some Whitaker's chocolate for breakfast and um yeah she she got to you know take some control back o over her

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own life and sort of die the way that she had lived her life >> with dignity. If if it all ended for you

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today is is that how you'd like to be remembered as a politician? >> Um it's it it's one thing uh and I'm I'm

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very proud of it. Um, but I would like to think it's it's part of a wider theme

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of letting people live and in this case die uh the way that they would like to there's no shortage of politicians. I

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know I've said this a few times, but there's no shortage of politicians who

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basically want to lead a tribe and have everyone live according to the tribe. The tribe has spoken. Uh I I want to try

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and uh let a bit more light out and let people live their own way so as not harming someone else. So I I I hope that

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that will be seen as an example of a theme. >> So at the time we're recording this,

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it's uh what August 2025. So you've been deputy prime minister of New Zealand for

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3 months. Um what changes when you become deputy prime minister? Does it does it mean anything? What does it

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mean? >> It means everything and nothing. Um so it means everything because uh it just

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shows just about anything's possible in this country. I say to kids, look, if

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that guy could become deputy prime minister, that's what you could do. >> Meaning you.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, um on the other hand, it it kind of

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means nothing because my basic job is to be the minister of regulation, be the MP

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for EPSUM, lead the ACT party, all that stuff stays the same. Where it's a little bit different is if Chris goes

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overseas, then I'm now the first in line to be the acting PM. Uh which again

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means everything and nothing. Uh in theory, it's it's just a symbolic job.

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Uh but if something goes really wrong then you have to actually um be there and and potentially make decisions if uh

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you know things are are really really drastic. Um like I mean not just any decision but you know significant

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decisions. Um and uh that's that's always something to think about. Uh and

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I I feel like I'm jinxed because uh so far I've been acting for the crowd

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strike um when those Chinese ships came the floods in Nelson. Uh there was something else. Oh, Israel and Iran

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decided to fire missiles at each other. So, it seems every time I'm acting PM,

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something crazy happens. >> Are there any good perks? Do you get a nicer office? You have security detail.

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Is it more money? Must be more money. >> Well, I I it is a bit more money. Um,

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but the this the only perk that I that I really really think is is worth it. Normally, I don't go for perks. Um but

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if you have the security with you then because those guys are all carrying a bit of metal uh you don't have to go

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through the security at the airport. So there's a little things but um but other

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than that very little changes. >> So in the in the last 3 months since you

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were made deputy prime minister how many days have you been caretaker prime minister?

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>> Uh I don't know probably couple of weeks worth. Yeah. Yeah. You and I went out and got some fish and

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chips for lunch a couple of weeks ago and that was a day where you were caretaker prime minister and yeah we had

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security guards. >> Oh yeah. >> Do they have guns? Do they have guns on

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their person? >> I don't think you're supposed to talk about that. I don't think so. I assume I

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assume that that's just their handcuffs that can't go through security. >> Yeah. Right. Right. Um was there a

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special ceremony when you become deputy prime minister? >> Yeah. And it was actually really nice.

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Um Cindy Ko the um governor general said look you know we think we should do something. I said okay and um you know

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Chris Luxon actually didn't have to but but showed up. Um so it was nice that

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people were there and also had um you know a few members of my family and and also some of my staff that have been

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with me since you know since times when this seemed crazy uh were were there with me. Um so that was that was it was

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a pretty cool day actually. Yeah, we we don't need to focus too much on the the David Seymour back story

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because I feel like we did that in the previous um podcast, but um in a nutshell, your dad is still around and

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you've got two brothers. Um your mom passed away from cancer in your early 20s, so you've had you've been without

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her for as almost as long as what you had her now. >> Very Yeah. Yeah. A few years off that,

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but very close. Yeah. >> Yeah. What What did your dad make of the whole thing becoming deputy prime

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minister? >> Pretty cool, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he he's just a you know

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um proud dad in that sense. Um I think uh so no I'm lucky to um have someone

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that's been sort of quietly supportive for such a long time. Most dads are but

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he's a pretty pretty classic dad in that sense. >> How how are they when like are you are

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you quite close with them in terms of like talking on the phone or you got a family WhatsApp group? Like I'm thinking

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when when the heat's really on you like I think I said at the start of it you're

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like you you're probably one of the most hated politicians in New Zealand this

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year. Like what sort of impact does that have on them? Um, >> are they quite resilient or they know

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that you can handle yourself? >> They are. I I mean, they don't worry about me. I I worry about them um

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probably unnecessarily. But I think it's almost harder when it's someone close to

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you because you sort of have, you know, you want to defend them, but you actually can't really. Uh, or you could,

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but it would make the situation more complex. Um, so yeah, I I worry a bit about them, but they seem to be fine. I

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mean, to be honest, we're all at a really busy stage. So, you know, Mark's

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got three young children. Um, one of whom sends me political emails quite often. Um, that's the one that sent me

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the email about children being able to work. Um, you know, Xander's got a couple of uh small children, so they're

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they're kind of at like peak crazy in their life cycle. Uh, so, you know, we

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see each other, but not as much as we probably have at other times and will in the future. Well,

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>> it's adulting, right? You you have your own stuff going on. Everyone's busy.

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Totally. Yeah. >> So, you're over halfway through this term. Um, yeah. Give yourself a report

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card. Like, are there KPIs? How do you know what you're doing and and if you're

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doing the right thing? >> Well, the number one thing is are we are we bringing about the change of policy?

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Uh, so if you look at, you know, the stuff that I'm specifically doing, Pharmac is way different and it's

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funding a lot more drugs than it was 18 months ago. The culture is way more listening. They've now got, you know, a

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patient group inside Pharmac. So, they're actually listening to patients more and they're starting to figure out

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how they bid to get more money. Uh, Medsafe that allows medicines to be used in New Zealand. Uh, they have decided to

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allow medical conferences, thank God, uh, because we've effectively banned those for a long time. Uh, sent all our

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doctors to Fiji. Uh, they're saying that if something is allowed in two other

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countries, then it has to be approved here within 30 days. So I think all pretty good stuff. Uh you know I'm also

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responsible for education. Uh school attendance uh continues to rise. We've got a lot more money in the budget which

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is one of the few areas I think it's worth spending more that drugs. uh we've

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um medicines that is I'm always told to say um um and uh you know we've also

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opened up charter schools which are just really radically changing things because

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I'm a a big supporter uh of what the government is doing with the NCA uh with

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the phones and schools uh with the you know not having three classrooms joined together

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>> but ultimately that is running the government schools better uh we need to

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start thinking out of the box how we get some totally different ways of doing education if we're going to keep kids

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engaged and have a big future as a country. So really proud of what we're doing with charters and attendance

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school lunches. Everyone loves to beat up on it but you notice there's been no

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media coverage for the last 2 3 months because basically we fixed all the problems. We're doing it for half the

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price uh and the satisfaction's gone up and the on-time delivery has gone up.

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So, you know, there's there's no no story for RNZ in that. Um, so look, I I

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think those things are going well. Um, and then I I get the sense going on of it. So, you ask,

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>> yeah, on this on the school lunches, um, there's a quote from you. Sushi is woke.

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Y >> what's what's woke about sushi? What does that mean? >> You know what? I'm I'm just going to

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tell you, um, that comment wasn't by me. It was somebody put that on my social

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media. I've never been more pissed off. I I thought it was a stupid comment and

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um you know I so I can't answer that. I I think it was a really dumb thing to

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say. Um and sometimes that just happens. >> Oh, like someone in your team.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Right. >> Oh god, that must be infuriating.

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>> Yeah. I mean that happens every now and then. I'll never I'll never say who. Um

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I I never uh bag someone else for a mistake that's made. Usually you just own it. But yeah, that was a stupid

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comment. So >> thanks for that. That's going to make a great little clip for social media.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm so I feel so much better now. I feel kind of weights off my

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shoulders. >> Cleansed. Yeah. Some other good stuff you've done. I don't think anyone would

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disagree with this. Um the the cauldrons and night and days putting pseudoine back into them. They didn't work. They

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were ineffective. >> Pseudoine's back to wake you up. Melatonin's going to be back very soon

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um to uh put you back to sleep. So yeah, that's all good. And look regulation. I

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mean, we're slashing red tape. I mean, even just little things like letting people put a garden shed wherever the

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hell they want rather than there's actually rules about that. We got rid of it. Um, and a whole lot of sort of

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bigger, probably more serious stuff about how early childhoods regulated. Um, what we're doing with uh letting

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agricultural products into the country so our farmers can stay at the cutting edge. We're reviewing

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telecommunications, product labeling I mentioned. I mean, right across the board, we're just slashing stupid rules.

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So, look, all of that stuff I I think we're doing pretty well. Um, and then the other side is, you know, where's

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your your public perception? How's your polling? I mean, ACT generally polls

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higher now than it did on election night. Got to be happy with that. Uh, and then there's the wider act team. You

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I look at what Brook's doing, Nicole, uh, you know, I look at people like Paramid, Palmer, some of our our newer

00:16:52

MPs on the back benches. I I think our team's going really well, too. >> Okay. Some other bits and pieces. Um,

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driving a Land Rover up the steps of Parliament. Yeah. Was was that a Was that a good move, a bad move? Was that a

00:17:05

mistake? >> You got told off for that. It was a stunt. >> No, no, I didn't get told off for that.

00:17:09

No, no one no one did cuz I I actually didn't break any rules. Uh it would be

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breaking the rule to disobey the speaker. Uh but no one actually told me the speaker had said that. Uh and here's

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why I did it. You know, I love this country, but it just depresses the be Jesus out of me whenever and you heard

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it after that. People say, "Oh, you should have asked permission." Really?

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Who? Who? There was no rule to be broken. That no one was in any danger. The only person that put themselves in

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danger was the security guard that ran in front of the thing trying to stop me doing the thing that was otherwise not

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dangerous. It was an example of just being able and you know a lot of the feedback we got from you know farmers up

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in the hook you say, "Yeah, we should have bloody gone to the top of the stairs." So, and and we just I mean we

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need to break free. If something's not hurting anyone else, you should be able

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to do it. The other reason I did it, uh, and this is someone that you should get

00:18:04

on your show now think about it, Julian Payton. I first came across him when he tried to import a piano from England as

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he migrated to New Zealand to uh, work at the medical school. Anyway, he, long story short, the Department of

00:18:18

Conservation tried to destroy his piano. I won't go into that now. Then he's he's

00:18:22

researching to do these heart valves which grow with the kid because at the moment if you're a heart kid with

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roheatic fever which New Zealand has like third world levels off. They put a tiny valve in then your heart grows.

00:18:32

They cut you up again. And these kids 40% of them die before 20 cuz they're multiple open heart surgeries. He's

00:18:38

creating valves that are made out of pig cells that grow with your heart as a small child. and he's trying to raise

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money and he raised a lot of money after the attention that the whole thing got after that.

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>> But it also showed I mean it was on TV for three nights in a row. I mean like

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seriously uh no rules were broken. Everyone went berserk. The opposition went berserk. It's like actually I never

00:19:03

faced any penalty. I was never in any trouble. Nothing was done wrong. There was no one put in any danger with that

00:19:08

one exception. It raised money for a great charity and um a whole lot of people decide to have a massive wing.

00:19:14

Well, you know, that's on them. And >> did you get told off by um Prime

00:19:18

Minister Luxen for writing a letter to the UN? What was the story there? And what is a a telling off from the Prime

00:19:22

Minister look like? >> Well, no. I mean, people people say that. And again, that's another example

00:19:27

of where the media has misrepresented what's actually happened. Um, should I

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have written it? Well, I suspect there will be more to come out about that. Uh, but at the end of the day, people love

00:19:37

the letter. If anything, I think people just wish that they'd uh written it themselves. Um but no, I wouldn't

00:19:43

believe the hype on that one. >> What about um there was something to do with a a Pulking Horn letter. Did you

00:19:48

write a letter of support to the police about Pokey? >> Yeah, I did. And again, um I have a

00:19:54

policy that my first job is to be the last line of defense for people who live in the Epsom electorate. Uh so if

00:20:00

someone comes in and bear in mind at this point there were no charges. Uh this was a person who had been adjacent

00:20:07

to a death. uh and I'd been told by other people who knew him, look, this guy is on the edge. I I think he could

00:20:16

actually uh kill himself comes into my office and says, "Look, you know, I feel

00:20:21

I'm being harassed and unfairly treated." So, I wrote a letter which just said, "Look, um totally respect

00:20:28

your independence. You guys have got to make a call on this, but you know, this guy's at his wit's end. He's got no one

00:20:34

else to go to. I feel it's my duty to pass on that these are this is how he's

00:20:38

feeling about the whole situation right now. Um that was it was as simple as that and I would do that for any uh

00:20:46

constituent um whether they're popular, unpopular, liked, disliked. If someone

00:20:51

came into my office tomorrow and I was getting messages saying this person is suicidal, someone's got to help them. Uh

00:20:57

then I would help them. Yeah, it's interesting giving the the time frame of it because you hear the

00:21:03

thing and you think how could how could someone support Pulking Horn like he's

00:21:06

he's not a great character, but this is like pre-arrest, pre- anything. So you

00:21:11

you weren't aware of the full extent of everything that had gone on. >> No. And I had I had no all I had was the

00:21:18

facts in front of me. Um and you're right. So that you know I I can't even

00:21:22

remember when it was. When the media asked me about it, I completely forgot I'd done it. Um but it was certainly you

00:21:30

know after uh Pauline had died and it was a long time before it was all over the media. Uh interestingly the letter

00:21:39

just kind of appeared in the media you know 2 years after it was written. So whatever. I mean, ultimately, if people

00:21:47

are um accusing me of being prepared to uh stand up for my constituents and have

00:21:53

some humanity for someone who's down and and perhaps dangerously down, then I'm

00:21:57

Yes, I I will do that. >> Well, thanks for that explanation. Wait, what sort of time schedule are you on

00:22:02

today as deputy prime minister? Is this your last thing of the day? >> No, no, I'm doing a public meeting at

00:22:06

Eldersley tonight. So, we got two or 300 people RSVP and I'm basically going

00:22:11

along just to hear what people have got to say cuz the danger is um you know, you know a politician stuffed when they

00:22:18

start to sound like the people in the beehive and uh you got to get out and listen to the people who are actually

00:22:22

paying the paying the ticket for you to be there. >> Got it. Never ends. But yeah. Yeah. One

00:22:25

other thing that's been quite big in in parliament was the um the haka tipati

00:22:29

maldi. Um there was Rawi Hana. Who was the other the lady from? >> Oh, Debbie Napka.

00:22:35

>> Yeah. Yeah. So um Hannah rips up the um treaties principal bill and then they

00:22:40

perform a haka in front of you. >> You what what's that like from your

00:22:44

perspective? Is that intimidating? >> No. Um it's saddening. Uh because I look

00:22:51

at the society we live in and after about 300,000 years of humans running around boppinging each other over the

00:22:57

head, keeping each other as slaves, practicing cannibalism, and just generally being savages, uh we have

00:23:04

arrived at a time in our history where to be respected, you have to make your arguments using ideas and logic and

00:23:11

facts. And people have the ability to choose which ones they believe and how they think. Um, that's a wonderful place

00:23:19

to be. It's allowed us to have science. It's allowed us to have democracy. It's

00:23:24

allowed us to have courts and the rule of law. It's basically allowed us to live twice as long uh as humans used to

00:23:32

live. I mean, people, everyone used to, you know, on average live to 40. Now, on

00:23:35

average, we live to 80. >> Now, all of a sudden, we say, "Okay, um, if you don't like something, uh, then

00:23:42

you just get up and and dance around and yell and poke your tongue out." and in

00:23:46

their case um make gestures of of shooting gestures uh of a gun uh that people if you don't like their ideas

00:23:55

instead of debating them with better ideas maybe you should kill them. Well, that makes me sad. Um and it makes me

00:24:02

sad that it has been given as much legitimacy uh as it has because this whole idea that we live in a

00:24:11

post-enlightenment world with reason, facts, and logic um you know that's pretty lucky. And uh the danger is you

00:24:19

don't know what you got till it's gone. >> That moment went um crazy viral, spread

00:24:24

like wildfire around the world. Yeah. Um for you personally, like being the the the Yeah. the person that hacker was

00:24:30

aimed at like is it is that embarrassing? >> Oh, it's not embarrassing. It's

00:24:36

embarrassing for them. Um because I believe that you know the age of reason and you know debating based on the facts

00:24:44

and allowing people to choose make up their own mind which which story they prefer. Uh I'm contributing to that. I'm

00:24:51

contributing to the the democratic environment that that allows people to live twice as long. Um those guys

00:24:57

whether they realize it or not uh are trying to take us backwards and and worse they're trying to say that there's

00:25:04

something inherently mauy about uh you know behaving that way. Well there's not

00:25:10

uh there are Maui people who believe in them actually a small minority of Mari that actually vote for Tatarati Mari. Uh

00:25:19

there are non-mari people who who actually agree with them. Uh but there are also uh a lot of mai people who

00:25:27

would much rather be in an environment of open debate and persuasion without violence or without attempts at

00:25:33

intimidation and there are equally uh lots of non-mai people who feel that way too. So you know they're trying to say

00:25:40

that this is the only way to be mai and that's totally untrue that that's

00:25:43

embarrassing. >> What's your relationship like with those guys like generally speaking if you see

00:25:48

each other in the hallways or whatever? We talked about in the last last time you came on the podcast like we talked

00:25:53

about your relationship with some of the other politicians like Willie Jackson Springstine had called you um a useless

00:25:58

marry. >> Yeah. Um and you spoke really highly of him and um >> I still do. I think Willy's great.

00:26:03

>> Seemed like there's like a fairly good relationship between you guys. It's

00:26:06

almost like um >> Cody Taylor and Dane Cole's on the field. >> They seem to hate each other, but

00:26:10

there's a lot of mutual respect there with the um the party moldy crew. Like

00:26:14

it Yeah. Is there any sort of like mutual respect there and that you you know you're both a small group of people

00:26:19

doing the same job a very unique job or >> Well the problem is that you know a guy

00:26:25

like Willie Jackson I mean first of all he's just a lot of fun and second of all

00:26:28

you know he doesn't mean it um and uh you know good on him I guess but these

00:26:33

other guys they are there to try and pull down the institution of parliament you know they're not they're not there

00:26:41

as colleagues like a Willie Jackson or you know a Chris Hipkins or Winston Peters or you know someone who's in a

00:26:48

different party but basically committed to or even even the Greens basically are

00:26:53

committed to to the parliamentary democratic um way of life for New Zealand. Uh whereas those guys are there

00:27:00

make no mistake to get as many hits on Tik Tok as possible and they don't give

00:27:05

a rat's derriè about the future of our parliamentary democracy. In fact they

00:27:09

openly say they don't like democracy. Uh I find it much more difficult uh to have

00:27:14

a relationship with someone like that. >> Yeah. With the the treaty's principal

00:27:18

bill, did you did you anticipate the level of backlash and emotion it would trigger?

00:27:23

>> Um yes and no. Uh I thought that there would definitely be people who frankly

00:27:30

are um you know just so committed to this idea that your identity as Mai trumps everything else and that anything

00:27:40

that questions that is an attack on you and you've got to march and you know

00:27:43

call the person racist and all the rest. Uh but I I certainly didn't think that

00:27:48

it would be as widespread as it was. And it just I guess reminded me that there is a a sense of tribalism that never

00:27:56

goes far away. By the way, I mean this is not just Maui. I I mean everybody 200 years ago, everybody uh

00:28:06

was keeping slaves. Uh everybody was applying the death penalty. Uh the French I recently found out only got rid

00:28:14

of the guillotine in 1981. So there you have it. But uh you know I was surprised

00:28:20

at uh just how many people were prepared to attack a bill that says look the government makes the laws. The

00:28:29

government has the same treatment for everyone and the government upholds everyone's basic rights. It it I I

00:28:34

didn't think it would be that controversial. Mhm. >> If he knew it was going to be that that

00:28:38

controversial, would would ACT and yourself have just scrapped the whole idea? >> Oh, no. No. I I mean,

00:28:44

>> but you would have proceeded anyway. >> I think it made it more important to do

00:28:47

it. And I believe that in time the treaty principles bill or something very much like it will succeed because the

00:28:54

alternative is to have a society which is basically a cast system where if you are of one background, you have a sort

00:29:03

of place in the world. If you're a different background then you have a different place in the world and you

00:29:07

hear that I mean I mentioned Parid Palmer before she's one of our MPs she's

00:29:11

born in India um you know she's got a PhD she runs a successful export business she's been a broadcaster she's

00:29:16

been a member of parliament she's a mother of two she's you know a fantastic

00:29:20

person and she's frequently told that she has no right to commentate even though she's an elected MP uh on issues

00:29:28

in New Zealand she should go back to India or someone told me the other day she should focus on uh overstayers and

00:29:35

immigration fraud amongst quote her own people. Now that's the view that's

00:29:40

coming out. Uh that's the view that there are people who are legitimately here and there are people that are just

00:29:45

sort of late comers who should play a different role. New Zealand won't work

00:29:50

if that is our outlook. And so I believe sooner or later uh enough people are going to say this is enough. We we need

00:29:58

to get back to our roots as a a nation of pioneers, you know, pioneering people who's traveled further than anyone else

00:30:05

to give our kids a better tomorrow. And we got more in common than separates us.

00:30:09

>> Yeah. Oh, I'd agree with that. That I love that line. That's um that's yeah,

00:30:13

sort of like a by line of this podcast. You know, you have more in common than what you have different from people.

00:30:18

That's why I like having long form conversations with people just so you can get to understand them a bit better.

00:30:22

Um, the Times UK, they called you, this was a headline, the New Zealander who aims to undo 185 years of moldy rights.

00:30:30

Um, yeah. Does that sting? I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm probably projecting

00:30:33

here, but if I was in your position, like I I'd be really upset by that. >> I guess the thing is I I don't

00:30:40

personally get hurt or stung by these things because I know that they are actually they're frankly wrong. I mean

00:30:49

that that particular headline is is factually untrue. Um I want to uphold Maui rights. I want to embed the treaty.

00:30:57

I just have an understanding of it that I think has been lost for a long period of time. Uh that's that's why that's why

00:31:03

I'm doing it. So that headline is wrong. Uh it doesn't hurt me because it hasn't

00:31:08

proven that I'm wrong. Uh it saddens me again that we live in this time uh of

00:31:14

never been more human freedom. There's never been more human enlightenment. And

00:31:17

yet, uh, you know, people like that are actually just putting sand in the gears.

00:31:25

>> Yeah. When there's, um, 35,000 people or whatever the crowd was that marched to

00:31:29

Parliament, um, they can't be wrong, though. That many people can't be wrong.

00:31:33

Did Did they >> Oh, easily. >> Did they You think 1% of of people can't

00:31:38

be wrong on an issue? Yes, they can. I mean, it was less. It was, you know, 2/3 of a percent of New Zealand.

00:31:44

But do you think people just misunderstood it or was it was it a communication problem somewhere along

00:31:49

the the pipeline? >> I I I think people were people were deliberately told uh things that were

00:31:54

untrue about it. Uh a lot of people you know who were on that march I at least one journalist went and asked them you

00:32:02

know why are you here and there weren't a lot of coherent answers for that. If

00:32:05

you looked at the submissions on the bill uh there weren't a lot of answers for that. I visited a school in Palmy

00:32:13

North, Fryberg High a while back, and there are a whole lot of students protesting my visit. They'd been told on

00:32:21

TikTok that I was there to take away their Kapahaka group. Number one, I have no power to do that. Number two, I have

00:32:27

no interest in doing that. Uh, but that's what they had come to believe. And if I thought that was true, I'd go

00:32:32

out and protest, too. So, I I think there's an element of that. I I think about some of the things that the likes

00:32:37

of Tartati Mai uh said that I was trying to take away the language, the culture,

00:32:43

the manner of Mai people. Um that's untrue. Uh but a lot of people believed it. So uh could we have head that off at

00:32:52

the past and communicated better? Yeah, always could have done better. Uh but it's worth noting that there were also

00:32:58

people who are actively acting in bad faith at the same time. M if you sat down for dinner with um some

00:33:06

moldy elders who are deeply hurt by the bill, what would you say to them human to human?

00:33:12

>> Uh well, I mean I've I've done something very much like that. I I used to get

00:33:17

frequent calls uh from Dame Eritana Tafifangi. Um may she rest in peace. And well, in fairness, I mean, she she

00:33:26

wasn't really opposed um in our conversations. So, but if I was to sit down, I'd say, well, just a second.

00:33:33

Let's just look at what are the aspirations of young MAI in New Zealand today. Uh it's something like I want a

00:33:43

place to call my own. Uh I want something to do that's meaningful. I want the choice or the ability to start

00:33:50

a family. I want to feel good about myself and be able to express my language and culture. Now, show me where

00:33:57

this conception of the treaty that I've advanced uh takes away from that. There's there's lots of problems right

00:34:03

now that are stopping that. I mean, you try building a house. You know, we got real problems with productivity, growth,

00:34:08

and job creation. And uh you know, I I think there's a lot of people are struggling with uh knowing where they

00:34:14

fit in that that there there's no shortage of other problems that we should be addressing together. But my

00:34:19

bill by saying that the parliament makes the laws that that everyone has equal rights and that the crown's going to

00:34:25

uphold your your property rights. Uh that that's not the problem here. >> So you you genuinely believe it was a

00:34:32

win-win for everyone. >> There's no question about that. And it's based in the evidence of what has worked

00:34:38

around the world. I mean we've now got you know hundreds of countries that have

00:34:43

tried all sorts of different things and the places where people especially people who are disadvantaged have been

00:34:48

able to get a good shot at life feel good about themselves have somewhere to live have a future have a home uh be

00:34:55

fulfilled are the places where you say right here's the basic deal there's a

00:35:00

set of laws that basically say you can do what you like as long as you're not

00:35:04

harming anyone else and uh you just get on with it and good luck and When other people succeed, you know, their success

00:35:11

isn't taking away from you. In fact, often when one person invents a technology, someone else will use it in

00:35:17

a way that means that they can produce more or do something else that's special

00:35:21

or inspiring. Um, you know, I I look at the success of the Oakland FC, which I visited this morning. I mean, you could

00:35:30

imagine where some of those young people who are growing up in that team culture

00:35:34

are going to end up and what they're going to do. So, success actually spills

00:35:36

over and gets more success. It's positive some thinking. Uh, and all I propose is a a version of that basic

00:35:44

starting point. Here's a set of rules. Do what you like. Don't harm anyone

00:35:48

else. You're all equal. Get on with it. Let a thousand flowers bloom. >> So, you're not racist.

00:35:56

I I That's a It's a It's a terrible a terrible thing to be called, >> especially if you're not and you know

00:36:02

you're not and you know that your intentions are coming from a good place. I I struggle to say how that wouldn't

00:36:08

that wouldn't hurt you even a little bit. >> Again, it it saddens me because

00:36:15

first of all, you know, I talk about the enlightenment, I talk about reason, I talk about facts and logic. Uh you have

00:36:20

to first of all to use a word, you have to know what it means. >> So, you've got to have a decent

00:36:25

definition of what racism is. And for me, uh well, let's think about, you know, sexism is when you say that you

00:36:32

you're really focused on someone's sex. You know, the the most important thing

00:36:35

about a person is are they a man or a woman? And therefore, you're going to make all sorts of conclusions about them

00:36:41

that might not be supported by their actual characteristics. And you know, we've got rid of a lot of there's still

00:36:47

some sexism, but we've got rid of most of it, I would say, in the last hundred

00:36:51

years. Um, racism is again, it's it's it's race is your big thing. You know,

00:36:56

you someone's before you know anything else about someone, uh, you you got to

00:37:00

focus on their race. Uh, one of my favorite songs in the world by Buddy Guy, uh, Skin Deep. He says, you know,

00:37:07

he he faced a lot of racism growing up in the South as a black man in the 50s and, uh, you know, his mom used to say

00:37:13

to him, "Yeah, but that's only skin deep. It's what's inside that counts."

00:37:16

So that that's always been my belief and a lot of that came out of the civil

00:37:20

rights movement. Um, you think about MLK Jr., the famous, you know, content of your character, not color of your skin.

00:37:26

So, you got to start with a definition. Racism is when you believe that someone's race is more important than

00:37:31

all their other characteristics. Now, I I say the opposite. I say you should ignore someone's race, they can't change

00:37:38

it. So, what's the point? Uh you should focus on all the other characteristics

00:37:42

of a person. Um so, you know, not only am I not racist, I'm I'm actually

00:37:47

fighting it. Uh, a lot of my opponents in politics will say, for example, Mari have special insight into looking after

00:37:56

the environment. Like, really? Because I'm part MI Mari and I've looked inside.

00:38:00

I I, you know, if I want to be good at looking after the environment, I should probably go and study ecology or, you

00:38:07

know, learn to plant trees or something. Those are things that I can actively do

00:38:11

with my life. You're not born with that innate ability. And that's really the

00:38:15

the ultimate conflict of visions. Some people think life is predetermined. It's

00:38:19

tribal. You live in the tribe. They bring you up to do just like your daddy done. It's Bruce Springsteen song. Uh

00:38:25

and >> the river great song. >> It is a beautiful song. Come from down

00:38:29

in the valley where Mr. When you're young and >> we'll get back to that.

00:38:34

The alternative the alternative view is that well look you know there's there's

00:38:39

good luck there's bad luck but basically uh you're stuck here and you better use

00:38:43

your time on earth as crowded house say um to make the most of of those years and if you can uh you know take the

00:38:51

initiative take the future in your hands who knows what you might achieve determinism uh versus selfdeterminism or

00:39:02

>> sorry just a sidebar what the crowded house song. >> Oh, I I think it was actually an album

00:39:07

titled Time on Earth. >> Right. Um, >> beautiful phrase. >> Has has this hurt you politically, do

00:39:12

you think? >> Like, is it irreparable damage or do you think you've done like enough good over

00:39:18

the years to to get past this? Is this just a speed bump in the David Seymour story? I think that it has um

00:39:27

strengthened that support amongst a core of people who can see well this is what

00:39:33

you're trying to do and pe people who if they listen to or watch this podcast

00:39:38

will be completely unsurprised because they already basically could would know what I was going to say. Uh they

00:39:45

probably become stronger supporters. There will be a bunch of people on the edge who sort of used to cons maybe used

00:39:52

to support ACT maybe used to be considering supporting ACT who will say oh I don't know it sounds a bit racist

00:39:58

it's disruptive and it didn't actually pass so you know why bother uh for those

00:40:02

people yeah probably given us a bit of a >> pick and bit of a hit um but I'm a great

00:40:08

believer that the truth always comes out and the truth is New Zealand's future is

00:40:12

as a a society of people with equal rights Yeah, I I don't want to turn this into a

00:40:18

into a wo is me segment. Um and um I'm sure you know >> a pity party. It's not your style,

00:40:24

>> but um yeah, on online abuse or abuse in public? >> I mean, there were some really mean

00:40:30

banners at parades and there was lots of comments online. What about you personally? Are people going into your

00:40:34

DMs or >> Oh, no doubt. But I mean, I I don't really look at that. um you know if

00:40:40

stuff gets brought to my attention if I need to see it but I mean again I guess it's I'm sort of giving you the same

00:40:46

answer over and over but >> that's if that's your truth though that's fine.

00:40:50

>> Yeah. Which is is that >> I actually feel more sad for them because you've got this wonderful

00:40:55

opportunity to use your time on earth to transact and debate and find new ideas and learn new things and then you know

00:41:01

you're sort of sitting there saying you know David Seymours or whatever. Um that's sad for you. Um, it's not really

00:41:10

sad for me. Um, it it would be nice. I mean, I wish I persuaded you to become a supporter and, you know, it'd be all the

00:41:16

better. Um, but it kind of sounds like it's going to be hard to do that with

00:41:20

your present disposition. So, I'll just move on. >> Where does where does that resilience or

00:41:26

strength of character, whatever you want to call it, come from? Uh, I'm I'm just

00:41:30

curious because um like if we could bottle that up, like um there'd be a whole lot happier people in New Zealand.

00:41:35

You know, I was, you know, I'm a little bit older than you, but we were brought

00:41:39

up with um the saying sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never

00:41:42

hurt me. And then social media came along and names actually do hurt you. There's a lot of lot of kids, young

00:41:48

people in particular in New Zealand that would struggle with that. Yeah. How can

00:41:51

how can people be more like David Seymour when it comes to that sort of abuse online?

00:41:56

>> Well, it's pretty simple. Uh I hate to tell you, but you're going to be dead in

00:42:00

80 years max for most people. uh and uh there's not much you can do about that.

00:42:06

I know um some people like Elon Musk are trying to live forever, but let's assume

00:42:10

that most of us got 80 years max. Um then what are you going to do with that time and there are things that you'll be

00:42:18

able to control and there'll be things that you won't be able to control and as

00:42:22

the old saying goes um you need the serenity to accept the things you can't.

00:42:26

So there's some things I just hate. I mean I wish the Russians would stop invading Ukraine. I've done a little

00:42:31

bit. Ray tried to raise a bit of money and change that but you know I can't really change it. Uh there are things

00:42:36

that I can control and the thing I have the most control over is how act is going to perform in the next we while

00:42:43

and how my personal relationships go and that kind of thing. So, you know, focus

00:42:47

on those. Um, but the critical thing is knowing the difference. And where a lot of people get in trouble is they spend a

00:42:54

huge amount of time shouting at the ocean trying to work out uh how they can change things that they'll they'll never

00:43:00

actually be able uh to change. So, there's a bunch of angry people out there. I'll probably never be able to

00:43:06

change that. Uh there are things that I can change. I'm focused on that. And if

00:43:09

you do that, you might be surprised uh how much positive energy you can generate.

00:43:14

>> Is that the serenity prayer? I feel like that's the serenity prayer. accept the

00:43:18

things I can't I can't change and know that the know the difference or something.

00:43:22

>> I'm I'm not very good with my scriptures, I got to tell you, but um I

00:43:26

think it was St. Francis of Aisi, but it's also the alcoholics anonymous prayer, I think. So,

00:43:32

>> in the movie. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um Yeah. What's your relationship

00:43:36

like with alcohol at the moment? Are you are you in one of your non-drinking periods or when we went out for lunch a

00:43:40

couple of weeks ago, we both had Coke Zeros? >> Yeah. >> Coke. No sugar.

00:43:43

>> I am. Well, I am. I am today. Uh but yeah, I I I'm in a way more moderate

00:43:49

place than than like when I was my first year in parliament was wild. Like I I think I actually spent more than I um

00:43:56

earned that year. Uh it was just one endless um party really. It was great fun. Um but not sustainable and pulse

00:44:04

didn't really work out that well. Then I went cold turkey for a few years which

00:44:08

um was productive but boring. Now I'm back to being a moderate couple of times

00:44:12

a week drinker and that's probably a good space to be in. I can tell because

00:44:16

I start getting fat if I drink too much. So yeah, >> you must have long days.

00:44:20

>> Uh yeah. Yeah. I mean >> you're up when what time's the alarm

00:44:24

going off? >> Uh 5:15 some days. Depends if I got to catch a flight or do early media. Um if

00:44:30

it's a if it's a Saturday then then probably more like 8 or 9. So, in that

00:44:34

in that zone, but you know, definitely definitely before 7 and weekdays and usually um usually before 600.

00:44:43

>> Yeah. If you're getting up um like 6:00 most mornings or earlier, you you can't

00:44:47

do that and be a successful drinker, can you? >> Uh no, it depends how you define

00:44:52

success. But, um look, ultimately it just makes you grumpy and then of course everything else is harder. So

00:44:58

>> yeah, it's been a media stuff. And one thing one thing I've noticed with you,

00:45:02

um, with me here today, with Henry, the little boy that was in here earlier, stuff I've seen with you on TV, whether

00:45:08

it's with, you know, Jack Tame, Jenny May Coffin, Mike Hosking, whoever, you're Oh, even Guy Williams um, at

00:45:15

Wangi. We'll get to that soon. Well, um, you're always very calm and and and

00:45:19

measured. You know, your your disposition never sort of changes. >> Is that something you've learned over

00:45:24

time? Is it is that like a an axe that you've sharpened? >> Um >> or is it just you innately?

00:45:30

>> It's um it just goes back to uh you know you got to work out what you what you

00:45:35

can change and what you can't. Uh with a bit of luck uh you can share some ideas

00:45:40

the other person will find valuable and uh you might pick up some from them and there's no point uh getting emotional

00:45:47

about it. that that it just means that people go into all these sort of primordial lizard brain type reactions

00:45:53

and um they stop speaking straight so they're thinking straight so they're

00:45:56

less likely to share something interesting with you and they're less likely to take in what you're sharing

00:46:01

but also your own performance you're less likely to communicate well if you're in that state so um look you know

00:46:07

what there's a lot to be there's a lot to be said for just being chill you know

00:46:12

there's a whole lot of people that could benefit from just calming the down and chilling out, you know, and it would

00:46:18

be a lot better off. >> Sometimes it's it's hard though. Um I had a Zoom meeting earlier this week. Um

00:46:25

it's a neighbor dispute about the sound from the TV on my wall and I go in there

00:46:29

and I plan to be chill. >> Yeah. >> And then something happens and you see

00:46:32

the red mist and and as soon I I immediately afterwards I regret it cuz I know I've lost when you lose your call

00:46:39

in an argument, you know you've lost the argument, right? >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So

00:46:44

>> can anyone teach themselves to do that? >> Yeah. I think you can because and

00:46:49

ultimately it just requires reflection. So it's like any any good sports team or

00:46:53

any uh you know airplane pilot. You have to work out what happened and go back. So you I've got better over over the

00:47:01

years and the times that I've lost support is actually when I've really had

00:47:04

a go at a jouro because people ultimately say okay well you know we don't like the Jouro but you're supposed

00:47:10

to be better than that. So you know that's um that's really useful to useful

00:47:14

to remember. Is it frustrating doing that media stuff when like say Jack Tame for example on that show Q&A by the way

00:47:21

that Q&A show is that live? Is that early on a Sunday morning or is that >> you usually live? Sometimes Jack

00:47:26

pre-records, >> right? So you you you're there early on a Sunday morning like what sort of time?

00:47:30

>> Uh well the show starts at 9:00. So if you're first up, you're probably there

00:47:33

at about 8 and then they do makeup and stuff. >> Yeah, it feels like a gotcha sort of

00:47:38

show like they're trying to >> not just you but whoever they have on, they're trying to trip you up.

00:47:42

>> I really like Jack. Um, I think he's one of the more thoughtful uh good faith

00:47:47

actors in politics, but he has a thing and he maybe he'll watch this. Just so

00:47:52

you know, we see you, Jack. Um, we he'll he'll have some sort of um gotcha thing

00:47:59

and so he'll ask reasonable questions, let the audience understand where you're

00:48:02

coming from. Then he'll have his gotcha thing and he'll sort of stick at that

00:48:05

for a few minutes in the middle and then he'll realize it's not going anywhere

00:48:08

and then you just move on back to normal. and you just you just know the middle of the interview that Jack's

00:48:13

gonna do it and you're like it's not really gonna get anyone anywhere but

00:48:16

whatever. Um so you know that's that's Jack, but I actually think he's one of

00:48:20

the better and more thoughtful people out there. >> Who who do you get nervous about? I had

00:48:24

um Dr. Ashley Bloomfield on the podcast a couple of years ago and he told me during um the pandemic when he had a

00:48:30

husking morning on ZB him and his team had be up at like 3:00 a.m. um just reading the notes in anticipation of

00:48:39

where husking was going to go. Obviously a husking's more right leaning so I

00:48:43

suppose you'd get an an easier ride but do you get nervous for these? >> Um husk is one you got to be very very

00:48:50

careful about because he can turn so quickly. Um, but I I usually uh have good interviews on his show. Not always,

00:48:58

but usually. Um, there's no one I I really get especially uh worried about or worried about at all to be honest

00:49:05

because at the end of the day um you know, we got a certain amount of policy and ideas and attitudes to offer New

00:49:12

Zealand. Uh we're going to get those across and uh if the journalist decides

00:49:16

to be a dick, then that's a real shame and people will probably see that. and

00:49:20

if they don't decide to be a dick, we'll get more stuff across and everything

00:49:23

will go well. So, you know, ultimately they they're making the choice and frankly the media has more to answer for

00:49:31

and more trouble. I mean, you look, we're sitting here today. I mean, this morning, uh, the Christ Church Press has

00:49:38

had to print an apology because they hired a person, um, who they hired a person who, um, had, um,

00:49:48

uh, been working for the health coalition, which was a lobby group opposed to the school lunch program.

00:49:55

This person gets hired by the Christ Church Press, then writes a whole lot of stories criticizing me and the school

00:50:00

lunch program without declaring that just a second ago they were like a lobbyist against it. And I just think

00:50:06

for the integrity of stuff, for the integrity of the Christ Church Press, and you know, by contagion, the entire

00:50:11

media, that's bad. Um, far out. I mean, I think um, you know, Chenade Boucher got a huge amount to answer for

00:50:19

that that's been allowed to happen in a a company that she runs. Uh so look, you

00:50:25

know, they've got a problem with trust and stuff like that. It just underlines

00:50:29

it. Uh doesn't worry me so much. >> Yeah. >> Not a journalist, but um yeah, there was

00:50:35

a a viral moment from uh Wangi earlier this year where you're doing like a media standup. Is that what they called

00:50:40

them? Like a media standup and Guy Williams, a comedian. Um he starts sort of heckling you. Um, yeah. I I look look

00:50:49

I thought you handled yourself really well, but if you went on a a Guy Williams sort of thread, they'd probably

00:50:54

say he handled himself very well. It's all It's all subjective, isn't it? Um,

00:51:00

but yeah. How's that for you? Is that annoying? Is it frustrating? Is it funny?

00:51:04

>> Well, I mean, Guy Williams, I thought, did us a huge favor cuz um the the rest

00:51:10

of the standup was actually a very good one. There are a lot of journalists there who I actually thought asked good

00:51:17

questions for the most part and and I I thought I answered them, you know, was great, but I I thought compared with how

00:51:23

I normally go, I thought I answer them pretty well. Uh so that was all great stuff and uh then of course Guy by doing

00:51:31

his whole thing helped ensure that, you know, hundreds of thousands of people would see it. Um so I I got to thank

00:51:38

him. >> Yeah, you had some good lines in that. Do you um have were you a good debater

00:51:44

at school? >> No, no, no. God, no. No. I I wasn't in debating. I was >> I wasn't interested in I was interested

00:51:50

in rugby uh and also rugby and and and a bit of rugby was my main interest at school.

00:51:57

>> Yeah. >> One one more thing sort of media related before we move on from this completely.

00:52:01

Um there's a clip I found online yesterday uh while researching this interview from your time in Canada. You

00:52:07

had a thick Canadian accent. >> Oh, I know. Yeah. >> What was that all about? Was it

00:52:12

something you adopted in order to fit in or to accelerate your career? >> No, I I I it it happens naturally. I

00:52:20

mean, it it's interesting. Some people do, some people don't. Um, so I mean, my

00:52:24

partner, Alex still has quite an English uh accent from living over there for 10

00:52:29

years. And I I don't know. I don't think she did that deliberately. Um, I didn't

00:52:33

I'll give you one example. Um, there was a beer uh called a a cocon e. Uh, so it must be a First Nations uh

00:52:44

word and um you go into a bar and ask for a cocon and they give you a coke and ice. Well, you got to learn to say cocky

00:52:52

and then you get what you want which is a beer, right? So, you got to make yourself understood. And what I found

00:52:59

was it was mostly just about being understood and you just sort of naturally take this on. Uh, and uh, you

00:53:06

know, when I came back, it went away, but but it was certainly sort of a necessary thing.

00:53:11

>> Uh, not not something that I ever did deliberately. I see people online say

00:53:14

it's a fake Canadian accent. I deliberately I I didn't. I just wanted a beer.

00:53:18

>> Well, I sort of find when I go to America, like if you go to IHOP or somewhere like you have to ask for bacon

00:53:23

and eggs >> cuz if you say eggs, they they can't figure out what the word you're trying

00:53:27

to say would be. >> Yeah. And trying to explain you're from Oakuckland. Oakuckland. Auckland. No,

00:53:32

Auckland. >> Yeah. You learn very quickly there's word and you need to say force it

00:53:35

because if you say tap they don't know what you're talking about. Oh, they

00:53:38

would. There's a bunch of words in his pin. >> Do you There was um a former prime

00:53:42

minister of New Zealand, Jim Bulier, that did the same thing. He was an accent adopter but in his own country.

00:53:46

So yes, yes, he had the Irish guy and he started Yeah. >> Well, whoever you know um Yeah. Whatever

00:53:54

he you country he was entertaining the person from he'd sort of like mirror their accent. Do you do that or you only

00:54:00

do it when you're in other countries? >> I don't think so. So, I um I I met with

00:54:04

the uh debt PM of Malaysia the other day. I certainly hope I didn't. >> I don't think you're allowed to do that.

00:54:11

>> And if I did, I hope he didn't notice. >> Yeah. Hey, you mentioned um your your

00:54:16

partner before. So, Alexandra. >> Yep. >> So, she's she's a New Zealander, but she

00:54:20

spent time in the UK. >> Yep. >> Yeah. So, you got engaged in the US over

00:54:24

summer. Where was it? On the beach. Was it Venice? >> Santa Monica. Which beach in California?

00:54:30

>> Uh well, it wasn't a beach. It was one of those if you've ever driven from um

00:54:35

LA north the there's the uh Pacific Coast Highway which I've driven a few

00:54:40

times and it's a beautiful uh stretch and uh anyway the I had a plan but unfortunately um it's not only us that

00:54:47

have orange cones. The whole thing was blocked by a slip. So then had to get on the highway, drive up to San Francisco

00:54:53

and back down again. Anyway, um we got to a place and we're just walking and I

00:54:58

I had the the ring in my uh jeans and then you couldn't make this up, but there's actually a pod of dolphins and I

00:55:07

thought, sheesh, it's time to go. Like, you're not going to get dolphin, like,

00:55:10

you know, you you couldn't you couldn't pay for this. Uh so, yeah, it was it was

00:55:14

a good time for us. Yeah. >> So, what did you do? Was she expecting it at all?

00:55:19

>> Um I I think so. I think so. Uh because I'd been relying on one of her best

00:55:25

friends for um ring design and I I don't trust them not not to leak. >> Oh yeah, absolutely.

00:55:31

>> Then did you did you put much thought into what you were going to say? Did you

00:55:35

get get on one knee? Oh, something some things too too uh too private. But um fair to fair to say that it wasn't the

00:55:44

um orchestrated uh you know classic uh romantic proposal that um that that that you're supposed to do, but it worked. So

00:55:53

>> why um Yeah. Yeah. Why Why don't you want to elaborate on that? Um, oh, just

00:56:00

cuz just cuz it wasn't wasn't possibly uh as as perfect as hopes, but I managed

00:56:05

to managed to get a result. So, you know, >> so you'd been together for a couple of

00:56:09

years. What was what was the meet cute? How did you meet? >> Um, we got set up actually by friends,

00:56:15

uh, mutual friends. So, uh, someone that Alex had, um, had worked with as a sort

00:56:21

of student or intern or graduate or whatever. and um somebody who um uh I had a friend of someone that I'd knocked

00:56:30

on the door of as a politician. So it was sort of a a work related um uh connection.

00:56:37

>> Did you ask her dad for permission before I traditional sort of thing? Maybe she doesn't have that relationship

00:56:43

with her dad. Maybe it's not necessary. But >> yeah, and unfortunately her dad um is

00:56:48

not with us, so that I have to um didn't have that option. Um, no. I'm I'm sort

00:56:54

of of the view that um, and you could say ask your mom, but I I'm sort of of

00:56:59

the view it's a bit old-fashioned. I mean, that's from the days when um, you

00:57:03

know, daughters were kind of property of fathers and you sort of, you know, we don't do that anymore.

00:57:08

>> So, have you made wedding plans or >> Oh, we have. We have. Yep. They're um

00:57:13

they're top secret, but they're they're underway and uh we are just finalizing a

00:57:18

few details um for the summer. So, yeah. >> Wonderful. Who did she vote from in the

00:57:22

last election? >> Uh, well, we got a secret ballot, but um I certainly hope she voted the right

00:57:27

way. >> What What about her family? What were you her mom? Any siblings? What way do

00:57:32

they vote? Do they do they like Do they >> They obviously like you as a person.

00:57:37

>> Yeah, I think so. Her family have some some pretty strong exup supporting

00:57:42

markers, but um I wouldn't badger them because it might be a bit embarrassing

00:57:45

if they voted the wrong way. So anyway, >> there was an article in the uh in a New

00:57:49

Zealand Women's Weekly and yeah, have a water. Have a water. You're getting a

00:57:52

bit parched, are you? >> In um a Women's Weekly article in 2021, um there was a quote from you. We all

00:58:00

hope to find a real connection. Being effectively married to Parliament gets in the way a little bit. Um

00:58:06

yeah, so you managed to find love as well as you being perhaps the busiest in your political career. Are you going to

00:58:13

stick with politics? you were sort of indicating that you'd give it away for

00:58:16

the right person. >> Yeah, I guess I'm I'm I'm lucky I found the the right person who is equally busy

00:58:24

and you know, she's a a smart business woman. Uh she's building an incredible

00:58:29

company and I'm just so impressed with what she's doing. It's very very cool.

00:58:33

Uh and um she even, you know, has the generosity to to ask for my advice sometimes, which I'm sure she was just

00:58:40

being kind. Uh, so when you've got someone who's equally driven and equally

00:58:46

um, you know, doing their own thing, it kind of works, which maybe I hadn't anticipated,

00:58:51

>> maybe I should have anticipated. It's pretty obvious now. Uh, so look, we're

00:58:55

in a we're in a good space and I I have no plans of uh going anywhere much as my

00:59:00

uh might might get my enemies watching your podcast if they don't already, but

00:59:04

um, you know, uh, but look, I I don't want to be in politics forever. I'm

00:59:09

really clear about that. I I want to leave an ACT party that I can vote for and and not have to do it myself. And I

00:59:15

think anyone in any kind of business, you know, your objective should be not to create a job for yourself, but to

00:59:21

create an institution that delivers a a a service without you necessarily needing to be there doing it. Um, that's

00:59:30

that's the real success because then you're raising other people's productivity and helping them achieve

00:59:34

stuff. And that's what I want to do for ACTMPs ultimately. How's the how's the whole backlash thing

00:59:39

been for her? Like she's been um by your side through this whole um re-election

00:59:44

process and the whole treaties principal uh treaty principal bill. Um it's a

00:59:48

whole new world for her. >> Yeah, it is. And I think for anyone it's it's kind of unusual like um she's been

00:59:56

down to parliament with me and um you know sort of struck by the fact that you know you can work part these people on

01:00:05

on TV are your worst enemies but you actually walk past them in the corridor or could end up standing in the lift

01:00:10

with them. Uh so that's kind of weird and uh you know just the fact that people are um you know able to to write

01:00:18

stuff about you in the paper and she said oh can we stop them? I said unfortunately we can't actually control

01:00:22

the herald. In some countries you could uh but not here. Uh so you know there's

01:00:28

there's certainly things that I think would be unusual to any person and certainly you know often it's that

01:00:34

criticism of me that it's actually people around me who are more worried about it than I am because I've sort of

01:00:40

got this kind of pragmatic resilience you know St. Francis of Aisi thing going on. Other people worry about it a bit

01:00:46

more but also acclimatize and she's I think in a fairly stable space about it

01:00:52

now. M who would she say the real David Seymour is? >> Oh, look, she she's a real sympathizer.

01:00:59

So, I think she would say that I am a very kind and thoughtful person, a very driven person, a person that is doing

01:01:07

what they do because they have the country's best interests at heart. I mean, she she sees that uh I spend a lot

01:01:14

of time uh have a bunch of conflict that is kind of more the norm than the exception. Like hopefully in most

01:01:20

workplaces, conflict's the exception. In my business, it's the norm. And you

01:01:25

wouldn't do that for malevolent aims. I mean, you don't do it so you can uh you

01:01:29

know, skip the uh airport security for a week every few months. Uh some people say you're you're well

01:01:37

paid and and that is true, but once you put in hours, job security, uh and a few

01:01:44

other unwelcome things, it may not be as great as um as people think it's cracked

01:01:49

up to be. So, you know, I I think she would say, "Look, I I I see what what

01:01:55

the job takes from you. Uh the only reason you do it is if you had benign intentions." And I think that's true of

01:02:00

most politicians. >> I I applauded you before for your um like conflict style or communication

01:02:07

style. Um but I can imagine like in a romantic relationship, a committed relationship, it would be bloody

01:02:12

annoying. It would be frustrating. Are you the same at home? you know, you just measured and calm. Sometimes if

01:02:20

you're having some sort of conflict in a relationship, I'm sure she'd want you to

01:02:22

get a bit animated. >> Well, yeah. I I mean, it's it can also be quite effective to suck the oxygen

01:02:30

out of the situation, but um but also I mean, you know, nor normally I I work on

01:02:37

the basis that unless they can give me a compelling reason why I'm wrong, then

01:02:44

then I'm right. uh with Alex it's the inverse of that. I work on the basis

01:02:48

that unless I can give a compelling reason why I'm right the default is that

01:02:52

I'm wrong. So in that sense it's a different different outcome or a different starting point.

01:02:58

>> Um one thing we discussed last time you came on the podcast a couple of years

01:03:01

ago was um the ultimate act of love that your mom did before she passed. >> Um she recorded DVDs for you and your

01:03:10

two brothers um to give to your life partners when you found the right person. At the time of doing the podcast

01:03:16

in 2023, you hadn't found that committed relationship. You'd never seen the DVD.

01:03:20

You've never watched it. Yes. Um you're in a position now where you're engaged

01:03:23

to be married. >> Has um Alexandra seen the DVD from your mom? >> Uh well, there have been developments.

01:03:30

>> Uh we got the DVD out. We got the DVD player. We hooked it up to the TV. We

01:03:37

put it in. We pressed play. It had a menu which I'd completely forgotten about which you can navigate through. We

01:03:44

were all poised to watch it. It was a poant and special motion moment. Sorry. Um but tragically it was the wrong DVD.

01:03:54

So >> what was Well, she made a few. There was one generic one that had um funeral

01:04:01

scenes and her general message that she gave at the funeral. Um, however, uh, the actual DVD is MIA. So, I I've talked

01:04:11

to my dad about it. I'm going to organize a search. Of course, I got to go to Feray where he lives and have time

01:04:18

to, you know, do a search party to figure out what the hell's going on. So, look,

01:04:24

we're still committed to watching the DVD. However, there's been some there's

01:04:28

been some complications. >> Oh my god. All that anticipation. >> Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know. It

01:04:33

was um yeah, it was a bit of a let down. >> Um how was that though? Even though it

01:04:38

wasn't the right DVD, sitting down um with this woman that you love, >> seeing your mom on screen as as she was

01:04:45

you before she passed 20 years ago. >> Yeah. >> Well, I'd forgotten how Kiwi her her

01:04:50

accent was. Uh, and um, I, you know, obviously have very, I thought I had very clear memories, but it was at least

01:04:58

neat to show some video of her talking cuz she'd done all these messages for

01:05:03

people. She' done a generic one. She actually spoke at her own funeral. So, it was neat in a sense to be able to

01:05:09

introduce her beyond photos. Um, just not the actual message that uh, was intended for my uh, future beloved. So,

01:05:16

we we will locate this DVD, but uh yeah, it's it's a bit of an anti-limax at this

01:05:21

point. >> Was it emotional? >> Uh yeah, of course, because um you know,

01:05:27

she's sort of back from the past. Uh and she's no longer with us, but she's no

01:05:33

less real uh when you see that. So, yeah, it was it was quite a a poignant sort of a experience. Yeah. M

01:05:44

seeing um or experiencing what you've gone through the past year in terms of

01:05:48

political backlash. Um yeah. Do you do you wish she was here for that or in some ways are you from a protective son

01:05:54

point of view? Are you pleased she's not here for that? >> Oh I I wish she was here for it. I mean

01:05:58

she was a very determined person. I should add I also found another DVD in the case uh which had uh my fifth

01:06:07

birthday with me singing head shoulders uh knees and toes in ter uh so I was I was singing and speaking in mai as a

01:06:15

four-year-old um you know long long before it was cool which I I think some of I should show some of my uh opponents

01:06:23

who think I'm there to take away the le but uh anyway uh look I I think um you

01:06:28

know she was a determined person and I obviously you wish she was here. Um there's there's nothing that's happened

01:06:35

in the last year that that is worth her not being there. That's for sure. >> Yeah.

01:06:39

>> Well, thanks for sharing that. On um children, have you discussed children

01:06:44

with Alexandra? >> Uh yeah, we have. Um and uh you know, all in all in good time. We've just got

01:06:50

one one step at a time at this point. So >> how many >> uh look I I think ultimately life is

01:06:58

what it throws at you and whatever number you have is is actually the right number but there seems to be something

01:07:04

good about two um you know not not too many not too lonely >> and also in terms of convenience as well

01:07:12

you know >> well that yeah you don't want to be outnumbered I mean um you know it helps

01:07:18

helps to at least have a an even a tied vote if not a majority So, >> so from a personal perspective, it seems

01:07:25

like everything's going good. You're happy. You're a happy man. >> Oh, look, I'm I'm just in one of those

01:07:29

stages of life that you just have to live for. I mean, there's crazy stuff happening every every day. There's

01:07:36

conflict, there's sleep deprivation. Uh, but we are doing a bunch of good things.

01:07:41

Um, uh, you know, won't go through every portfolio and every policy that we're

01:07:45

changing. We're doing a lot. You know, I would say that the ACT party is is having an outsiz influence, a

01:07:50

disproportionate influence uh on how this government's going. Really proud of

01:07:54

that. Um you know, we still have the party polling well. We've got a lot to lot to talk about. Um and uh we've got

01:08:01

the big challenge of an election next year uh and a a blossoming relationship. So you know, you'd have to be

01:08:08

>> you'd have to be pretty happy. It's just not for the faint-hearted.

01:08:10

>> You for ACT to be strong, national sort of needs to be strong, doesn't it? Would

01:08:14

that be fair to say? What? What? What's up with um Christopher Luxon? I had him

01:08:18

on the podcast. I found him to be like a perfectly lovely man, like ruthlessly self-disciplined and and organized and

01:08:24

and yeah, quite quite nice and charismatic. Why did he get booed at the net? Why don't people like him?

01:08:30

>> Um well, I'm I mean, I'm not surprised that any politician would get booed at

01:08:34

the net. I mean, if you if you look at the polling um for any politician who's

01:08:40

got any profile, uh there's going to be, you know, 10 20% uh who really don't

01:08:46

like them and then a few more who just don't like them, a few that are neutral,

01:08:49

a few that like them, a few that really like them. So, most politicians are going to have, you know, one out of

01:08:55

every 10 people in that in that room who who really don't like them. It's just

01:08:59

the way it is. And um so I I I wouldn't read too much into it. Um, what I know

01:09:04

of Chris is that, as you say, he's incredibly disciplined. I think he likes the word intentional. Uh, and he's

01:09:13

someone that's basically just set up his life with a series of goals and knocked

01:09:16

them off. And, uh, you know, there's something to admire about that. >> What about you and Winston? When when

01:09:23

this coalition was formed, by the way, it took 20 days, eh, 20 days of meetings. Why did it take 20 days after

01:09:27

the meetings to form a coalition government? >> I think in partly took a long time

01:09:31

because we didn't know the result. So um after the election it looked like act

01:09:35

and national together could form a government and then the late votes came out and it turned out we couldn't so we

01:09:41

had to form a three-way. So partly because we didn't actually know the result for like 3 weeks um and then it

01:09:45

took a bit longer after that cuz we had to negotiate it all. There's never been

01:09:49

three parties in a cabinet. So I think that was always going to take some time. But your question about Winston, I mean

01:09:56

what I found is that uh you know we we actually have a pretty good working relationship. uh you know we're both

01:10:02

professionals. We both know that people want to see our government succeed. There's obviously huge differences uh in

01:10:10

terms of our outlook. For example, uh you know, I think that we need to get more money into New Zealand. Uh they

01:10:16

would say, well, New Zealand first. We don't like overseas investment. We've

01:10:21

negotiated through that and we've got a half decent uh overseas investment reform coming out of the government. So,

01:10:27

yeah, on balance pretty good. >> Do you like each other? >> Oh, no. Well, I mean I I don't but I

01:10:33

don't think I don't think anyone goes to politics to to find people they like. Um

01:10:38

you know I think um but but that I I mean I wouldn't expect anyone to say that they uh liked everyone they work

01:10:45

with. The question is can you be effective? You know >> so I can't remember who who did we talk

01:10:50

about in the first podcast. You mentioned Colin Craig. He always made your skin crawl.

01:10:53

>> I never physically touched the guy. He tried to shake hands with me a few times

01:10:56

and I you know >> can't remember. I think there was someone else. I I could be wrong, but

01:10:59

but you're Winston, so you'd never catch up for a whiskey or anything. >> No. Um, but

01:11:03

>> is there a mutual respect? >> Uh, I hope so. I I mean, you know, Winston has been the great survivor of

01:11:10

New Zealand politics. He he loves being an officer and he's managed to get back

01:11:14

there even when he's um been voted out. He he always comes back and there is a

01:11:19

skill in that. So, you know, you've got to admire it. Um I would hope that he'd

01:11:24

say similar things, but that's up to him. I mean for me politics is not so much about being there. It's about

01:11:30

improving the policy and and ideally uh getting getting out and getting your life back having left the country a

01:11:37

better place. So different objectives. >> What about Chloe? >> Yeah.

01:11:41

>> Do you like each other? Very different politically obviously but you know

01:11:46

>> I think it's a sad situation. I I I've had a good relationship with Khloe for

01:11:51

most of the time that we've been in parliament. Uh I've always had a bit of

01:11:55

time for her. obviously think that, you know, there's aspects where I think she

01:11:58

policies are just crazy. But >> I should say the same about you though, no doubt.

01:12:01

>> Probably. Yeah. Um I I think she's frankly hardened a bit after I criticized her for chanting the you

01:12:08

know, river to the sea thing. I mean, you know, that is a a Hamas slogan that basically says wipe out all the Jews.

01:12:15

And I represent an electorate which has a lot of Jewish constituents who are genuinely mortified by that. Um, and for

01:12:23

some reason since that particular incident, she's had a very different uh tone on me, which is a shame, but um,

01:12:31

you know, it is what it is. >> So, she's not getting an invite to the wedding.

01:12:35

>> Uh, no, no, no. I think probably unlikely. >> Who what politicians would be there?

01:12:42

Chris Bishop, you're quite good friends, aren't you? >> Huge amount of respect for Bish. Um, you

01:12:48

know, he's someone who genuinely believes that public policy is the object of being in politics to leave

01:12:56

better policy so people can unleash their creativity and build better lives for themselves. And that's a lot rarer

01:13:04

than you think. You know, there'd be, >> I would say, um, you know, a dozen

01:13:09

people in parliament uh, who think like that uh, and 11 of them are in act. Is there a mistake you wish you could go

01:13:16

back and correct >> professionally or personally? >> Um, look, I I think uh if you Well,

01:13:25

personally, I wish I'd kept playing rugby. I gave up far too early and I I just I I wish I I started coaching. I

01:13:32

could do that for the rest of my life. >> Now, I'd give anything for a game. And I

01:13:36

know that all sorts of things I've never even heard of before would either snap

01:13:40

or crack or break. So, so that that is a a tragedy. I mean, I kind of buggered my

01:13:44

knees in Dancing with the Stars, so I can barely run. But um but but look, that's that's it's a bit of a humble

01:13:50

brag. I mean, I wish I' I think I think professionally uh look, I I look at the

01:13:57

2023 election and um I look at how we went into that. I mean, we're riding high. Um, we campaigned on real change

01:14:07

like we are going to cut waste, deregulate, sell things that we don't need, invest

01:14:14

in things that we do need, uh, we're going to be really straight on the treaty relationship. Uh, and if people

01:14:21

don't like that, uh, then we will hold out until other people come around, former government, on on terms that New

01:14:29

Zealand needs real change. I think what we found was that about 2/3 of our support, they're like, "Yeah, that's

01:14:37

actually what we need." Uh, and those people remain with us. There was another

01:14:41

third who said, "Uh, look, we we think you're better than the other guys, but

01:14:46

we just we don't want any trouble. So, sorry sunshine, we're off." Um and so

01:14:50

that misjudgment of how badly the country, you know, how badly I think the country needs change versus what a

01:14:56

coalition of voters need change. Um that was a miscalculation. Um but I also feel

01:15:03

that as time goes on, it becomes clearer that that actually for New Zealand to succeed the way it could, uh we're going

01:15:12

to need to be a bit more bold about the changes that we make. M what about regrets?

01:15:21

>> That was a regret. >> Um >> uh look, not a lot. I mean, you know, I've

01:15:30

done 11 11 years uh next month. Uh showed up, done my job, helped my constituents,

01:15:38

growing my party, uh you know, been good to my staff. We got amazing culture, almost no turnover, uh all of that. and

01:15:47

and we've introduced policies I think are good for New Zealand. So, um you know, sure that you could you could find

01:15:53

something if you wanted to, but I actually actually think uh you know, there's areas we could have done better.

01:15:58

The the things I just thing I just mentioned is a good example of that. Um but on balance, you know, I'm pretty

01:16:04

proud of what what I've managed to achieve so far. The the trick is to keep it going.

01:16:08

>> What about flaws? What are your biggest flaws? >> What would Alexander say or your

01:16:13

brothers? Oh, look, I I think that um there is a balance between being really clear in

01:16:22

your convictions and knowing exactly uh where you want to go and what has to happen and coalition building. So, there

01:16:30

are politicians who basically they live for the polls. They want to be popular. They want to be liked. Uh and they can

01:16:37

be very successful. They can get really high votes. um and they can be in office

01:16:42

and they can do but when they're gone there's there's not a trace. Um then

01:16:48

there's people who are absolutely strident and they know what they want and they know what they believe and

01:16:52

they're not going to compromise one bit. Um and I'm, you know, no one's got that

01:16:57

balance right in my view, but I'm I'm more at the strident end of it. I think

01:17:00

the world needs people like that, but it's probably cost me a bit too. >> Yeah. It seems like there's three things

01:17:07

in New Zealand that you just don't want to go near. one's the treaty um capital gains tax

01:17:13

and um the age of the pension. >> Would that be fair to say? >> That's probably a learning from this

01:17:19

year, right? >> Yeah. >> Difficult conversations that the country is perhaps just not prepared to have

01:17:24

yet. >> Well, the the implication behind that is that they're conversations where we

01:17:29

should be braver. Um I don't agree on the capital gains tax. I I think it you

01:17:33

know, people people say that a capital gains tax is going to help with the housing market. Oh, no, it's not. I

01:17:39

mean, you look at Sydney, Vancouver, LA, London, Hong Kong. I mean, they all have

01:17:41

capital gains tax. They all have house prices out of control. So, >> capital gains tax ain't going to fix

01:17:46

housing. Uh, what it is going to do is complicate the tax system. And it's also

01:17:50

got a certain amount of the tall poppy in it. So, it's kind of like, oh, someone else has done well. How do we

01:17:56

take more money off their personal business or the shares they own or the house or whatever? We got to we got to

01:18:01

find a way to my my my problems are caused by someone else's success. I'm

01:18:05

going to find a politician to bloody take it off and give it to me. So, I agree. The other two I think you know as

01:18:10

we've discussed in this the the prevailing concept of the treaty as a partnership between races is not

01:18:17

sustainable. We've we've got to go there and I believe it will come back. Um and

01:18:21

then the the other one was was the the third rail you you mentioned >> retirement age.

01:18:26

>> Retirement age. Yeah. Well, again, I mean, unpopular to say it, I know, but

01:18:32

the simple maths is that every year, um, 60,000 people turn 65 and about 30,000 people move on. So, you've got 30,000

01:18:42

more people, uh, getting the super and as a result, uh, you've got about a billion and a half of of extra, uh,

01:18:50

expense uh, that the, um, taxpayer is lumped with. Now, as that goes on, uh, you know, you get to the stage where

01:18:58

there's a million people over 65. You know, there's another million or so

01:19:04

under 18. There's 3 million in the middle. Not all of them are working. Uh, so you actually end up with about 2

01:19:12

million people working to support 3 million people. It just doesn't add up. >> So, what can you do about that? Well,

01:19:18

you know, you mentioned my dad. I mean, he's 73. He's still working. I mean, we

01:19:22

just talked about Winston. He's 82. You think or 80 anyway? He's well over 65

01:19:27

and still working. Um so I would just say look, you know, at what point are we going to start being honest about this?

01:19:35

It's one of the biggest drivers, you know, a billion and a half extra every year that we somehow got to stamp up

01:19:41

stump up with a ratio of working taxpayers to dependent people that that just can't hold together. And so then

01:19:49

you say, okay, this is not sustainable. Would you like the change to happen uh you know sometime in the future

01:19:58

with no warning because there's I don't know a big natural disaster or a global

01:20:02

recession or you know people just say right the country is broke no one wants to buy New Zealand government bonds uh

01:20:08

we can't refinance we've got to cut our expenditure somehow because it could be

01:20:12

forced on us or do you want to start saying okay let's let's start making the

01:20:17

change slowly and quick slowly and immediately and slowly rather than sometime in the future and rapidly.

01:20:27

>> How's your vulnerability? Are you are you good at having um you mentally like

01:20:32

you seem to be in a really good spot? Like you you're very measured. It feels

01:20:35

like you're always sort of rolling at a five out of 10. You're never getting too

01:20:37

high. You're never getting too low. Are you are you good at having you conversations like with your partner or

01:20:42

with close friends if you're not doing well or if things are getting to you?

01:20:47

Look, I I actually think that, you know, and I say this, I I started out as um I

01:20:54

I volunteered for Kids Line, which was a youth counseling thing. I think I talked

01:20:58

about this on the the last uh and >> we did. >> Yeah. What I found it's a it's a good

01:21:03

service. Uh it's why I tried to raise money for it on Dancing with the Stars.

01:21:07

Um now not able to happen. I think we talked about anyway. My point is that there's also people who have kind of

01:21:14

gotten into this kind of counseling and vulnerability and I'm okay, you're okay.

01:21:19

And it it's sort of taken on its own momentum. And of course, if you say anything different, people say, "Oh,

01:21:25

you're terrible." But I actually think that there is something to be said for

01:21:29

just being a bit resilient, saying, "You got a certain amount of time on Earth.

01:21:33

How about we just make the most of that?" because if you want to get into a

01:21:37

mass sort of naval gazing exercise, you can. Um, but it might start to become its own uh to have its own momentum. And

01:21:47

so I'm I I know that's probably an unpopular position to take. Um, but there's also something to be said for

01:21:53

being a bit resilient. I mean, not to give you a political answer, but I just look at this thing I got, you know,

01:21:59

people criticizing me for saying that you're a dropkick if you don't enroll to

01:22:02

vote. I mean, it's as easy as ordering a pizza. It it it but it costs nothing. Uh

01:22:09

it's a legal requirement. You have three years to do it. And people say, "Oh, but

01:22:12

what about people that are just so vulnerable and they can't it's like you

01:22:17

get to live in a democracy. This is all you have to do. It's simpler than eating

01:22:20

a pizza than ordering a pizza and it's free. Oh, but you know, it's too hard."

01:22:24

And I just think, you know, everyone's vulnerable. Everyone's got a problem.

01:22:28

Everyone's medical. I mean, sometimes life just is hard and stressful. You just get on with it, you know. It it is.

01:22:34

Yeah, it is. There's a lot of suck in life. >> Yeah. Oh, tell me about it. You know,

01:22:38

>> it's the price you pay for this opportunity of being here. When was the

01:22:41

last time you cried? >> Uh, probably when mom died. So, >> really? Like, no. Like 20 years ago.

01:22:47

>> Yeah. >> No, actually. >> Yeah. >> Just not not an overly emotional person

01:22:53

at all. That's David. That's sad if it if it's been 20 years. >> Well, again, you know, this you've got

01:22:59

to you've got to cry. you know, you're you're not a real man if you don't cry.

01:23:03

I mean, come on. Um, >> no, but it's a wonderful emotion to experience. It's like um laughter or

01:23:09

anger. It's >> Oh, I mean, now you're b you're basically now telling me you got

01:23:12

compulsory crying. This is exactly what I'm trying to say, you know. And it's

01:23:16

worse. You're sort of trying to make people feel inadequate for not leaking.

01:23:20

I mean, God, >> what what about if you if you're watching um a romcom at high altitude,

01:23:25

like if you're flying in somewhere and you watch, I don't know, School of Rock

01:23:28

or the Pixar movie Up. Do you not get emotional at movies ever? Have you seen the movie Tina?

01:23:35

>> I haven't. >> Yeah. >> Um there are there are a few movies that I

01:23:40

I think are um uh emotion worthy. Um uh strangely uh I I watched one um about uh

01:23:49

I think it was Suffragette. It was about the British version of Kate uh Shepherd

01:23:53

and I want to say it was Emily Pankers, but I might have that wrong. It was a very emotive uh movie. Um strange one to

01:24:00

pick for some people, but it was was just neat the way that people had this strong belief in being able to be who

01:24:07

they uh well just to be equal and to be treated as free. That really resonates with me. So does that song. I mentioned

01:24:13

my buddy Guy, you know, a man in Louisiana never called me by my name and said, "Boy did this, boy do that." But I

01:24:19

never did complain. I knew he had a good heart, but he just didn't understand. I

01:24:23

needed to be treated like any other man. For some reason, those themes of being treated with equal dignity. Those those

01:24:30

resonate with me. >> Not even when you watched that DVD with your fiance the other week.

01:24:37

>> Well, no, cuz I was trying to think where the right DVD was. Actually, I'm I'm probably the same as you.

01:24:43

Through my uh through my 20s and 30s, I don't think I cried. Maybe at my nana's

01:24:47

funeral or something, but um it's an emotion that I've like embraced and lean

01:24:50

into. It's wonderful. It's nice having a good cry from time to time. >> Hey, um well, this has been a fun chat

01:24:56

today. >> It really has. >> It's been really enjoyable. Um we'll

01:24:59

have you in again at some stage. It'd be interesting to compare answers at the

01:25:03

end. >> Have you cried yet? >> I'm thinking >> you get me in every year.

01:25:07

>> Yeah. Well, I have succumbed once you become a dad. Like, um I haven't had the

01:25:12

the good fortune of having my own family, but most of my friends say the the birthing process is quite an

01:25:16

emotional thing to experience. Um but it'll be just interesting to see if your

01:25:20

reflection and answers would change at the end of your political career because obviously now you've got a like Yeah, it

01:25:27

it's political to say you believe in everything that you've done and you

01:25:30

don't have regrets. Do you know what I mean? Um yeah, but I I mean there are

01:25:35

give you examples of things I do uh regret. Um and there's probably others, but it's also true that um politics

01:25:43

doesn't really reward second guessing. Um >> you know, >> you get called a flip-flop. Is that what

01:25:48

you mean? >> Well, exactly. Um and uh so, you know, it probably be probably be good if there

01:25:54

were more rewards uh for confronting mistakes, but um there's not, so we just

01:25:59

don't make any. H >> yeah. Wouldn't society be better and wouldn't it be a better lesson for

01:26:04

everyone involved if you could say actually I was wrong about this and then course correct

01:26:09

>> but you just can't it's seem seen as a political failure to do that isn't it?

01:26:13

>> Uh yeah I I think um you know part of the issue is that uh if you're the most

01:26:20

informed voter and you're the least informed voter you still wake up with the same

01:26:25

government on Sunday morning after the election. So if you're smart, you'll use

01:26:30

your time for other things that do give you a direct payback uh rather than uh investing in being an informed voter who

01:26:36

who gets the same results anyway. And and and that is the the kernel of why I think you need to um do less through

01:26:44

government because it's it's not an informed way of decision-m for the most

01:26:47

part. And one of the things that comes out of it is you say, well, I think most of them are probably wrong, but if that

01:26:54

one's but I'm not sure which ones. If that one is openly saying they're wrong,

01:26:58

then must be them. And so it's partly just the the sort of information environment you're in.

01:27:05

>> So election next year, are are you going to get reelected? Is ACT going to what

01:27:10

do you need like 5% of the vote to get back in? Well, you need to uh win a seat and or um get 5%. So, look, at the

01:27:20

moment, ACT holds two electorate seats. Uh it is um not never guaranteed that they'll be reelected, but they're

01:27:27

elected by reasonably healthy majorities in both cases and and in my case elected

01:27:32

for the fourth time. So, you know, that bodess well, but it's not guaranteed at

01:27:37

all. We continue to work hard to get out and do street corner meetings and help our constituents and do all the things

01:27:45

that usually lead to re-election. Um and uh then there's this question of will

01:27:50

you get 5%. I mean every poll that we've had since about mid2020 has has been

01:27:57

over 5%. So again uh nothing's guaranteed but but things bode well. So, um, based on the information we have

01:28:04

right now, I say we probably will be, but, um, you know, we can you can lose a lot and you can gain a lot in a year.

01:28:10

>> If it all ended next year, would you be happy? Would you be at peace with your

01:28:13

political career? >> Absolutely. I I mean, you know, I've I've shown up uh I've argued the case.

01:28:19

I've made some changes that I think are good for New Zealand. I've taken a whole

01:28:23

lot of people along with me and a lot of them have had experiences and made changes and contributed in ways that

01:28:29

they they couldn't have if uh that ACT vehicle hadn't been there. Um and I I

01:28:35

feel like I've uh you know made the the most of the the time that I've been

01:28:39

given. And it's possible the voters will say, "Yeah, that time's up, Sunshine."

01:28:42

Well, that could happen, but but I'd still be in a in a good place. I mean, I

01:28:46

have on my um on my phone there. Um that's me with a constituent walking out

01:28:52

of um Starship Hospital. So, it's under Cararolina Burch and we um we fought for

01:28:58

years for her to be able to live supported in the home and um that's uh you know something that I've I've had on

01:29:05

my phone. I think that was about 2019. >> Um so that really for me is a symbol of

01:29:11

what a local MP can do and I'm really proud of that. got a not notification from NT Games as well. Are you a Wordle

01:29:17

guy? >> Oh, look, I'm I'm addicted. I I shouldn't tell you. People probably

01:29:21

build me for it, but uh look, I'm I'm Wordle guy. Connections fiend. Um I've

01:29:27

stopped doing the crossword cuz I actually do have job. Uh but that was good. Uh and um I I try and there's one

01:29:34

other Oh, the the one where you got to line up the um spell the words, whatever that's called there. I know the one you

01:29:41

mean, but I I can't remember the name either. Hey, David Seymour, thank you so

01:29:45

much for coming on the podcast. Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand. >> Thank you very much. See you again.

01:29:49

Round two. >> Thanks.

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Episode Highlights

Engagement Announcement
The speaker shares personal news about getting engaged amidst political turmoil.
“You've got engaged.”
@ 02m 19s
August 17, 2025
Deputy Prime Minister Changes
Discussion on the implications of becoming deputy prime minister.
“It means everything and nothing.”
@ 08m 05s
August 17, 2025
Land Rover Stunt Controversy
A politician defends a controversial stunt at Parliament, claiming no rules were broken.
“No one actually told me the speaker had said that.”
@ 17m 19s
August 17, 2025
Treaty Principles Bill Backlash
The politician discusses the unexpected backlash against the treaty principles bill.
“I didn’t think it would be that controversial.”
@ 28m 34s
August 17, 2025
A Win-Win for Everyone
The politician asserts that his bill is beneficial for all, based on global evidence.
“There’s no question about that.”
@ 34m 34s
August 17, 2025
Resilience in the Face of Abuse
David Seymour discusses how to handle online abuse and negativity.
“I actually feel more sad for them because you've got this wonderful opportunity.”
@ 40m 53s
August 17, 2025
Media Challenges
Navigating media interviews can be tricky, especially with challenging journalists.
“If the journalist decides to be a dick, then that’s a real shame.”
@ 49m 16s
August 17, 2025
Engagement Proposal with Dolphins
A spontaneous proposal moment highlighted by the presence of dolphins.
“You couldn't pay for this.”
@ 55m 10s
August 17, 2025
Emotional DVD Experience
A bittersweet moment as he attempts to watch a DVD from his late mother.
“It was quite a poignant sort of experience.”
@ 01h 05m 39s
August 17, 2025
Political Relationships
Despite differences, there’s a professional working relationship among coalition members.
“We actually have a pretty good working relationship.”
@ 01h 09m 56s
August 17, 2025
Vulnerability and Resilience
Discussing emotional resilience, the speaker emphasizes the importance of being strong.
“There’s a lot of suck in life.”
@ 01h 22m 36s
August 17, 2025
Political Career Reflections
The Deputy Prime Minister discusses his contributions and feelings about his political journey.
“I feel like I’ve made the most of the time I’ve been given.”
@ 01h 28m 42s
August 17, 2025

Episode Quotes

I want to try and let a bit more light out.
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love
Who? Who? There was no rule to be broken.
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love
It's what’s inside that counts.
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love
You can’t do that and be a successful drinker, can you?
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love
I wish she was here for it.
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love
You know, there’s a lot of suck in life.
David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love

Key Moments

Engagement News02:19
Land Rover Stunt17:03
Public Meeting22:09
Defining Racism37:30
Dolphin Proposal55:10
Political Backlash59:42
Chloe's Controversial Policies1:11:56
Vulnerability Discussion1:20:28

Tension Over Time

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown