RETURN TO CHANNEL

Search Captions & Ask AI

Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!

June 09, 2024 / 02:24:53

This episode features Dion Nash discussing his cricket career, business ventures, and personal experiences. Key topics include his early cricket days, sponsorship with 42 Below, and the challenges of transitioning from sports to business.

Nash reflects on his time as a New Zealand cricketer, including his memorable performance at Lords in 1994, where he became the first player to score 50 runs and take 11 wickets in a test match. He shares insights on the pressures of being a young player and the impact of injuries on his career.

The conversation also covers Nash's business journey, including his involvement with 42 Below and the creation of his skincare brand, Triumph and Disaster. He discusses the importance of mentorship and learning from failures in both sports and business.

Nash opens up about personal challenges, including the infamous 1995 incident involving marijuana, and how it affected his life and career. He emphasizes the importance of resilience and the lessons learned from difficult experiences.

Throughout the episode, Nash shares anecdotes about his family, relationships, and the importance of community involvement, highlighting his growth as a person and a father.

TL;DR

Dion Nash discusses his cricket career, business ventures, and personal growth, including challenges faced and lessons learned from his experiences.

Episode

2:24:53

00:00:00

[Music]

00:00:19

[Applause]

00:00:24

[Music]

00:00:27

D on N welcome to my podcast thanks

00:00:30

I made it I'm so pleased this finally uh

00:00:33

finally happened I think it's worth

00:00:34

probably um opening with um so the

00:00:37

podcast has been going about two and a

00:00:38

half years now when it was um maybe a

00:00:42

month old or three or four episodes in

00:00:44

you reached out to me um for a chat

00:00:47

about like sponsoring like real early on

00:00:49

and you were the first sponsor I had on

00:00:50

the podcast ever yeah well we we loved

00:00:53

it like you you got you're doing some

00:00:54

great stuff actually I've been doing

00:00:57

some research cuz I thought oh man I

00:00:59

better see what you're talking about you

00:01:00

know I've got something to say um and so

00:01:03

I've spent the last couple of days just

00:01:05

watching the podcast and I I've loved it

00:01:07

real surprise ones actually you know

00:01:09

Matthew Ridge who knew you know it's

00:01:12

like awesome just all those names from

00:01:14

the past and people that you haven't had

00:01:16

those insights so that was why we liked

00:01:18

it at the start and you've continued on

00:01:19

it's great no oh it's it's one of those

00:01:22

um things that that I'll never forget

00:01:25

you know so we had a meeting and um you

00:01:27

you gave me a little bit of money and

00:01:28

you said it's not a lot of money but I

00:01:30

don't have a lot of marketing money but

00:01:32

you know once other businesses see

00:01:34

you've got a sponsor on board maybe

00:01:35

it'll start a sort of tipping Tipping

00:01:37

Point effect and it it kind of did in a

00:01:39

way and I'll um I'll never forget that

00:01:41

it's really cool thanks and I've been a

00:01:43

big fan of views for um a very long time

00:01:45

as you know there's even um I even

00:01:47

emailed you a couple of times over the

00:01:49

years trying to buy like a small share

00:01:50

of your

00:01:52

company I know I know we should I

00:01:54

probably should have taken you up on

00:01:55

that now no I I love what you do at

00:01:58

[ __ ] and disaster and this is going to

00:02:00

be this is going to be a great chat we

00:02:01

can talk about the business stuff uh

00:02:03

rewind the clock talk about the Cricut

00:02:05

stuff and but basically I just want to

00:02:07

know what makes you tick really um but

00:02:09

let's start with um these two little

00:02:12

books I found oh yeah uh put out by

00:02:15

shell Cricket called the Great Little

00:02:17

Cricket signature book so this is uh

00:02:20

this is um back pre- social media when

00:02:23

you were playing Cricket for New Zealand

00:02:25

and I suppose um people wouldn't come

00:02:28

and get selfies they' just get

00:02:29

autographs right yeah yes very much so

00:02:32

this was a profile of Dion NES so I've

00:02:34

got when was the last time you saw these

00:02:35

books by the way oh gosh it's been a

00:02:39

while I'm pretty sure my mother bought

00:02:41

one there's one somewhere floting at

00:02:43

home Margo butcher put these out she did

00:02:45

a it was ahead of her time really like

00:02:48

this is now you know bread and butter

00:02:51

for sports people they do it all the

00:02:52

time on social media but yeah I guess

00:02:55

you know hard copy social media so I I

00:02:58

thought I'll run through some of the

00:03:01

some of the questions that were put to

00:03:02

you by Margot butcher in the early '90s

00:03:04

and see how your answers compare now 30

00:03:07

years on so

00:03:09

nicknames uh nashy would be it now but

00:03:12

back then it would have been Woody or

00:03:13

woodshack or Dasher I suppose you why

00:03:17

Woody uh Woody was um well initially

00:03:21

when I went to University I was a bit of

00:03:23

a cruel nickname cuz I you know I met

00:03:26

this new bunch of guys and I was some of

00:03:28

them were older Cricket guys who a

00:03:29

couple years older at University than me

00:03:31

so I was trying to fit in so I kept

00:03:33

asking dumb questions so one of these

00:03:35

guys Carlo daa nicknamed me Woody off

00:03:39

chairs you know because I kept asking

00:03:40

dumb questions and um but then over time

00:03:44

the rest of the cricketers sort of like

00:03:47

could I it became woodchuck because you

00:03:49

know how much wood could have woodchuck

00:03:51

chuck whatever and then chucker and then

00:03:53

all the sort of sort of the derivatives

00:03:56

um and I think they I was always

00:03:58

grateful for the net that they evolved

00:03:59

to a point where it moved away from

00:04:01

Woody from cheers and into some sort of

00:04:03

other but interestingly when I got um

00:04:06

picked in the New Zealand team when I

00:04:07

was still at University I was I was 20

00:04:10

and um I got picked and I a whole bunch

00:04:13

of people came up to me after I got

00:04:14

selected for the black caps and they

00:04:16

were like wow I always thought your last

00:04:18

name was wood I was like I was like

00:04:22

Woody you know I was like um so anyway

00:04:24

so I I obviously hadn't done my job in

00:04:27

telling them my proper name so if you

00:04:29

catch up with any of the the old guys

00:04:30

from the '90s now does anyone still call

00:04:32

you Woody I if I hear Woody called out I

00:04:35

know where that person's from and I I I

00:04:37

know I know them well yeah um favorite

00:04:41

music

00:04:43

oh yeah shoot well I jazz is probably if

00:04:48

I had to pick one that I had to live

00:04:50

with forever I would probably go Jazz um

00:04:53

where I think back then I was probably

00:04:55

fully into my grunge scene um I still

00:04:59

like grung and punk and alternative

00:05:01

music probably um been doing a little

00:05:04

Darkness sort of di Deep dive of late

00:05:07

I've been watching his um podcast or or

00:05:10

Channel Justin Hawkins yeah yeah and um

00:05:13

I've been loving it and he's just sort

00:05:15

of got this really nice demeanor but I

00:05:17

went and saw them live at the power

00:05:19

station and what amazing musicians they

00:05:21

were and so I've sort of like been I

00:05:23

don't know I could find myself enjoying

00:05:25

which is I guess a little bit Glam

00:05:27

glamrock meets meets um grunge but um

00:05:31

yeah Jazz I guess you back then it was

00:05:33

blues and rock but you you've always

00:05:34

been into your music eh you you you play

00:05:36

guitar um yeah yeah well Define play

00:05:39

yeah badly you badly I've um always I've

00:05:43

got a Gibson SG which is uh I got from

00:05:45

America years ago so which always

00:05:47

reminds me of when I was growing up

00:05:49

there was a guy in daral where I heard

00:05:51

um a gr Nial Force scoop which was the

00:05:53

most expensive bat you could buy back

00:05:55

then um but he didn't know how to use it

00:05:57

and so I was I I met when I bring out my

00:06:00

SG in front of actual musicians I always

00:06:02

feel like feel like that guy and I'm

00:06:05

like oh I'm always just sort of

00:06:07

embarrassed that I've got it but um but

00:06:09

I love it you know oh you you go right

00:06:10

don't you like you've got a you got a

00:06:11

fun band with um um Jeff Ross the 42

00:06:15

below they still a thing the camel toes

00:06:17

oh yeah in fact they're trying to get

00:06:18

something going again now it's been a

00:06:19

long time between drinks yeah je from 42

00:06:22

below in Aquia candles craigan is one of

00:06:23

the greatest New Zealand league players

00:06:25

all time is it a threepiece or anyone

00:06:26

else no we got another guy Nick Ross

00:06:28

who's lead singer and he's no relation

00:06:31

to Jeff but he um he's great front man

00:06:34

and then um heus G from the Fiers has

00:06:37

sort of like floats around um yeah in

00:06:40

the background there and um Dave um

00:06:42

Rollins from clap clap right Pops in

00:06:44

every now and then and does a little

00:06:46

sort of helps they they sort of help

00:06:47

give us a bit of structure and support

00:06:49

when we need it coaching the musical

00:06:52

version of the black Clash there's a

00:06:53

couple of very much so very much so yeah

00:06:57

uh worst job worst job you had this was

00:07:00

your answer by the way in the early '90s

00:07:02

well my worst job over here was well

00:07:04

would probably still be picking squash

00:07:06

or working in my father's Timber Mill I

00:07:08

can't it's it's a pretty fine line

00:07:10

between the two what did I say then

00:07:11

pumpkin picking oh yeah there you go

00:07:13

squash yeah pumpkin yeah yeah right um

00:07:15

best thing about being a cricketer oh

00:07:17

this is going to make your toes

00:07:19

curl shoot this is not a great

00:07:22

answer God what did I say uh the best

00:07:26

thing about being a cricketer would have

00:07:27

been um the big lunches I supp like

00:07:31

great lunches there you go you look you

00:07:33

look back now as um as a like a retired

00:07:36

former you know New Zealand cricketer

00:07:38

and New Zealand cricket captain what do

00:07:40

you think now on hindsight from the

00:07:41

perspective of a dude in his 50s oh

00:07:43

shoot yeah early 50s Tom early 50s um um

00:07:49

what do I think

00:07:50

now what is the best

00:07:52

thing that is it's a it's almost tougher

00:07:55

to answer that retrospectively um I

00:07:58

think the the the um expulsion of of of

00:08:03

uh B the burden of sort of expectation

00:08:05

and talent I think getting a little bit

00:08:07

of that monkey off your back and the

00:08:10

confidence I think that you gain from

00:08:12

that is probably what Cricket offered uh

00:08:15

enough that's a really answers it but in

00:08:17

terms of the cricket itself I mean I

00:08:21

would have to say the achievement of

00:08:23

within a team and and within a group and

00:08:25

I I did at one point our our era really

00:08:29

got it together and the work that we had

00:08:31

to go into doing that and understanding

00:08:34

the sacrifices and the effort made to

00:08:36

get to a point where we were were sort

00:08:38

of a competitive world class side um it

00:08:41

took sort of probably four years of

00:08:42

buildup to get to that point you know

00:08:44

and that then at lasted probably 18

00:08:46

months or two years before we sort of

00:08:47

dropped off that form but the work and

00:08:50

the team effort and the commitment as a

00:08:52

group is what probably the the biggest

00:08:54

takeway that is a great thoughtful

00:08:56

answer I mean the easy answer would have

00:08:58

just been to say like you the

00:08:59

relationships or the friendships or yeah

00:09:02

whatever I I appreciate that I even saw

00:09:04

um Chris kin on Instagram yesterday like

00:09:06

getting excited about the 25 year

00:09:07

reunion of the 199 team oh good yeah oh

00:09:11

so that's cats out of the bag yeah no

00:09:12

well we're trying to do that down in

00:09:14

Wellington um yeah I mean well that's

00:09:17

probably the era of the team that for me

00:09:19

and maybe Kenzie and a few other people

00:09:22

that around that time that we got our we

00:09:25

got our [ __ ] together you know and we

00:09:27

prior to that we you know these photos

00:09:29

in this era we were sort of a talented

00:09:31

bunch of young Young Guns Young Guns you

00:09:33

know but we had no framework no guidance

00:09:36

a lot of the senior players left in 92

00:09:39

after that 92 World Cup so we were sort

00:09:41

of left to our own devices to a lar

00:09:42

extent we only used had one coach at the

00:09:45

time and sometimes they were in and out

00:09:47

really quickly so there wasn't the

00:09:49

support um and so we just were left um

00:09:52

so that era finally got it shipped

00:09:54

together in late 99 yeah so seven years

00:09:56

after this and if there's one thing I

00:09:58

really hate it's what what is it

00:10:02

now what do I hate now uh taxes at the

00:10:06

end of the financial years really yeah

00:10:08

God Oakland Council Oakland transport

00:10:12

yeah um yeah slow drivers um I think I

00:10:17

don't know what do I really hate I I'm

00:10:18

trying not to hate anything I'm trying

00:10:20

to be more mow in my Approach um I I'm

00:10:23

hating how uh hard it is for me to

00:10:26

change my own behavior that's what I'm

00:10:28

hating at the moment hm what do you want

00:10:30

to

00:10:31

change I would like to sort of be calmer

00:10:35

and less

00:10:37

vocal I see I I suppose our interactions

00:10:41

have only been sort of the occasional

00:10:43

meeting or the occasional thing so maybe

00:10:44

I haven't been long enough time with you

00:10:45

but you you seem C and mellow oh yeah I

00:10:48

I put on a good I put on a good front

00:10:51

but no I mean what I what I would mean I

00:10:54

yeah I think I probably am experienced

00:10:56

mostly it's around my my kids in the

00:10:59

Sport and expectations and sort of any

00:11:02

competitive environment I was such I was

00:11:03

always so

00:11:04

competitive a competitive environment

00:11:07

that I have no control over which is

00:11:09

watching my kids place for example oh

00:11:11

hello oh here he is Kanye hello

00:11:15

Kanye it's JJ here JJ come

00:11:18

in hey how are you everyone how's it

00:11:22

going are you do you want to do you want

00:11:26

to do you want to say good out for a

00:11:28

second hey take over oh wow tell about

00:11:32

your CLA to fame have you seen anything

00:11:34

Tom him

00:11:35

yet hi Dion JJ he remembers me so that's

00:11:39

a good

00:11:40

start do you remember your first ever

00:11:45

interview on the radio

00:11:48

oh no to remind me remind me thought you

00:11:52

always remembered your

00:11:54

first well I probably do but tell me

00:11:57

what did I do do I stuff it up badly no

00:11:59

no it was uh way back in

00:12:00

1991 maybe 92 I was in uh tanaki working

00:12:05

on nfm oh no I think I do and you came

00:12:08

in for an interview and you said this is

00:12:09

my first time on the

00:12:12

radio I think I do remember that now

00:12:15

gosh that's years ago so we were been at

00:12:17

Pokey Cur Park that would have been like

00:12:19

um one of those Queens I think we would

00:12:21

have been playing Australia that would

00:12:23

oh my gosh there was a that's right

00:12:25

before it all kicked off it's so funny

00:12:27

that you remember what what games you

00:12:29

were playing when I just don't even

00:12:30

remember that I just remember who I was

00:12:32

interviewing oh I remember I remember

00:12:34

cuz um Alan border was playing and was

00:12:36

and you poy Park is so beautiful you

00:12:38

can't forget it right and um I remember

00:12:40

I walked out and you know when you're

00:12:43

playing in front of the absolute heroes

00:12:46

of like these guys were like 35 year old

00:12:48

I was like 19 or something yeah and they

00:12:51

were just like my heroes and I bed so

00:12:54

meekly and quietly in the end of like

00:12:56

about an hour which i' done survived

00:12:58

pretty well Alan bord said wellplayed

00:13:01

boy or something like that and honest my

00:13:04

chest and my swelled like this I walked

00:13:06

off floating on air was like my God

00:13:09

spoke to me that's amazing was it the

00:13:11

Richard Headley days yeah he was just

00:13:14

finished I think but Martin Crow was

00:13:16

around and they are legends that was a

00:13:19

really big time in cricket oh yeah okay

00:13:22

you he doesn't even remember interview I

00:13:25

do well it was really great to see you

00:13:29

okay to it fine get your own podcast I

00:13:32

like he was really interested talking to

00:13:34

me that it's fine I'll leaving with you

00:13:35

dropped Richard Hy cuz that's the only

00:13:37

name you

00:13:39

think obviously I don't know much about

00:13:41

Cricket except you don't want to be

00:13:43

hitting the googly see you guys all

00:13:45

right get out

00:13:47

out um yeah you would have you would

00:13:49

have hated media commitments back then I

00:13:51

suppose cuz you're the new guy on the

00:13:52

team it's like oh getting nashed to do

00:13:53

the radio oh gosh I didn't yeah it's

00:13:56

like and you were just so bad at it like

00:13:58

you know we were just I had no idea what

00:13:59

to say I remember I do remember after in

00:14:02

getting infed by Paul Holmes once and I

00:14:04

was in London and it was overnight and

00:14:06

we'd finished and he was in the morning

00:14:07

so it must have been for his radio and

00:14:09

he said like something like um uh where

00:14:11

are you and we're at this Cafe on Baker

00:14:13

Street called Cafe suie we're having a

00:14:15

you know celebrating this game and and I

00:14:18

said oh you know it's where um Sherlock

00:14:20

Holmes used to hang out and there was

00:14:22

this like really long pregnant pause

00:14:25

when I when he must have been thinking

00:14:28

does he think she homes is

00:14:33

real oh my God that's amazing was that

00:14:35

interview because when when you played

00:14:37

at Lords okay we'll get to that that's

00:14:39

going to be one of the to this day one

00:14:40

of the highlights of your life oh yeah

00:14:42

for sure for sure for sure okay sh we've

00:14:45

been got qu now already I'll just

00:14:46

there's a couple of other bits in this

00:14:47

book uh best breakfast wheat bcks and

00:14:49

cold milk coated in Sugar yeah which is

00:14:52

so if you were a professional athlete

00:14:54

now and that was your answer yeah I mean

00:14:56

it'd be good for potential sanitarium

00:14:58

sponsor

00:14:59

yeah yeah um best piece of clothing ever

00:15:02

owned bright yellow Daisy shirt that

00:15:03

attracts insects oh yeah I did love that

00:15:06

shirt yeah I was trying all my see all

00:15:09

my friends were we were all a bit fruity

00:15:11

at University right we weren't beer

00:15:13

drinkers like most of my mates were all

00:15:15

sort of I don't know bit more on the

00:15:17

Arty scene you know smoked a bit of pot

00:15:19

and and hung out in in the park you know

00:15:21

they were sort of like so I sort of

00:15:23

caught that that dress code a bit so

00:15:26

trying we're always trying on different

00:15:28

shirts different sort of you know

00:15:31

strange um Jack opposition that way

00:15:33

between having those Ary sort of friends

00:15:34

and also being this like jock for lack

00:15:36

of a bit attemp yes yeah I yeah I mean I

00:15:39

I think Cricket probably lends itself to

00:15:41

it more than some sports and I don't

00:15:43

know that like in some ways it was a bit

00:15:46

of a coping strategy as well I think you

00:15:48

know a little bit of trying to make uh a

00:15:50

life outside or away from that

00:15:53

competitive environment um and you know

00:15:56

I I just found them really good guys as

00:15:58

well they you know they were into

00:16:00

interesting stuff right you know so they

00:16:01

were off on ski trips or mountain

00:16:03

climbing or you know doing going to

00:16:06

theater or doing stuff which was just

00:16:08

for my world was like wow this is crazy

00:16:11

you know and and and interesting so I I

00:16:14

found it like a nice a great outlet and

00:16:16

I still do you know like all of those

00:16:18

mates most of those mates are still my

00:16:20

best mates today you know yeah when you

00:16:23

look back on that guy um what are you

00:16:25

most proud of and least proud of

00:16:29

I I I I'm really proud of that guy like

00:16:31

that guy had come a long way you know he

00:16:32

come from dargaville and ended up at

00:16:35

University and he was on his way just

00:16:37

about breaking into the New Zealand side

00:16:38

at 20 uh life was you know I'd achieved

00:16:42

a

00:16:43

lot you know and I I didn't think of it

00:16:47

from coming from a you know a background

00:16:50

that that that was tougher to achieve

00:16:52

those things you know but you know I

00:16:54

just but um yeah I'm there's nothing I'm

00:16:58

you know obviously

00:17:00

as it turned out I wish I could go back

00:17:02

and give him some sound advice on how to

00:17:04

be a professional Sportsman how to look

00:17:06

after his body how to um you know how to

00:17:10

mentally get through it you know like um

00:17:13

not long after this I got about two

00:17:15

years after this I got a contract to go

00:17:16

and play in England for 6 months and you

00:17:19

know it that was a huge honor back there

00:17:21

there were only 17 International

00:17:22

contracts in the world so you know I was

00:17:26

it was a bit of an ego boost but also so

00:17:29

a huge honor but I had no no coping

00:17:33

strategy I had I wasn't fit enough I

00:17:34

wasn't strong enough mentally tough

00:17:36

enough you know just it was just

00:17:38

exhausting um and so it would be nice to

00:17:41

be able to go back and say Hey you make

00:17:43

you're about to get some opportunities

00:17:45

here's some bitter ways to go about

00:17:46

making these decisions but was anyone

00:17:49

physically strong enough though like I

00:17:50

like the knowledge we have now in terms

00:17:52

of strength and conditioning and rehab

00:17:53

and everything else yeah no not really

00:17:56

and the ones that we got lucky I think

00:17:58

you know um and you know I tried really

00:18:02

hard when I went over there and it was

00:18:03

just so long like we would play and if

00:18:05

you if you're in a successful team which

00:18:07

I was um you would play four day game

00:18:11

and then in the middle of the four game

00:18:12

there there'd be a one day game so that

00:18:15

meant you were playing for five days in

00:18:16

a row and then for there was always a

00:18:18

sixth day which was another one- day

00:18:20

competition and these competitions just

00:18:22

sort of begin and began excuse me ended

00:18:25

so if you're a bad team you dropped out

00:18:26

earlier and you got a bit more of a

00:18:28

break but if you keep winning like we

00:18:30

did meant you playing six days a week

00:18:32

for virtually for not for for 6 months

00:18:35

and then quite often on the seventh day

00:18:38

you drive to the next venue which would

00:18:40

be you know every second week would be

00:18:43

away so I remember one day where you

00:18:45

finished on a like a Monday or Sunday or

00:18:47

whatever it was and ended up driving to

00:18:49

Durham from from London you know it's

00:18:51

like 7 hour drive or something so it's

00:18:53

just crazy you know is that is that why

00:18:56

your back ended up [ __ ] just too much

00:18:58

yeah I think so yeah I always remember

00:19:00

um Tom moody this Australian West

00:19:03

Australian big tall guy he was the

00:19:04

Worcester Pro and I'm I played against

00:19:07

wora I did quite well against him and

00:19:09

after the game he pulled me aside and he

00:19:11

just came over and it's just me and him

00:19:13

time he goes man you got to learn how to

00:19:15

Bow within yourself you know and just

00:19:17

slow down a bit go off a short run

00:19:19

otherwise you're never going to last and

00:19:21

I was like I remember thinking is this

00:19:23

guy Aussie guy trying to stitch me up

00:19:25

here and you know have me on and I was

00:19:27

like but he's the only guy and the whole

00:19:29

time he tried to offer me some actual

00:19:31

sound advice and I just wish I had a

00:19:34

listened oh yeah yeah there's that

00:19:37

saying um that youth is wasted on

00:19:39

the it's like too much testosterone or

00:19:42

something man just yeah I did one of

00:19:45

those um uh Treasure Island shows years

00:19:47

and years ago with with doly and he he

00:19:49

was [ __ ] as well like there was some

00:19:50

nights where he couldn't even lie down

00:19:52

properly his back was that soy are you

00:19:54

okay now yeah no I'm good now I am I am

00:19:57

I've got a new hi just got a new

00:19:59

replacement so that's all good um but um

00:20:02

no back wise sweet you know I think

00:20:05

generally it's helped me keep fit

00:20:07

because you I I'm sort of conscious that

00:20:09

got to stay on top of my phys you know

00:20:11

physicality just to avoid all those

00:20:13

things cuz like doly i' had stress

00:20:16

frates either side just collapsed so

00:20:18

those things never fully heal so you

00:20:20

sort of just put up with them but you

00:20:22

sort of just become stiff and a bit you

00:20:24

know that that fuses itself over time um

00:20:27

but yeah no doly was well we played a

00:20:30

lot together doly and yeah we used to

00:20:32

share our um

00:20:34

volaran dosing was like it was a bit

00:20:37

like you know would dose up he he he

00:20:41

always had doly was a big fan of the

00:20:43

ones that you put up your bum and I was

00:20:44

like h i having to try them one and I

00:20:47

was like a doly I think I just stick to

00:20:49

the swallow I'll run the risk with the

00:20:51

stomach stomach off broo the suppository

00:20:54

gets into your blood how much quicker

00:20:56

how much time are you sa oh we hit all

00:20:58

down pet you know if you take an aspirin

00:21:00

with them it thins the blood gets

00:21:02

through faster was like yeah sweet is

00:21:04

that a true story yeah are yeah man we

00:21:07

were all sopping notes yeah yeah okay

00:21:10

let's um there's so much about the

00:21:11

cricket stuff that I want to get into

00:21:12

but I first of we'll focus on the the

00:21:14

business stuff so um so you finished

00:21:17

playing Cricket for New Zealand then

00:21:19

this I've listened to heaps of podcast

00:21:20

you've been on and the story goes um

00:21:24

you're working out at a gym or something

00:21:25

Jeff Ross who's um done very well for

00:21:28

himself with um eoa and before that 42

00:21:30

below he comes up to you and you asks

00:21:32

you what you're doing did you know him

00:21:34

did you have a relationship with him or

00:21:36

well it it it actually wasn't it wasn't

00:21:38

Jeff um it was his business partner um

00:21:40

so um so Grant Baker was sort of like

00:21:43

the

00:21:45

um um uh there was this they had this

00:21:49

great sort of Duo and Grant Baker was

00:21:51

the business head in the na um Steve

00:21:54

Sinclair was the sort of numbers guy um

00:21:57

Jeff was the um you know sort of the

00:22:00

creative so they were uh this sort of

00:22:03

magical um team so yeah so I went to a

00:22:06

uh a gym with um one of them and then

00:22:08

they just s said come on what do what

00:22:10

are you doing with yourself and um and I

00:22:12

said I actually I'm going to a bottled

00:22:14

water you know I thought do this bottled

00:22:16

water and um he goes oh we want to do a

00:22:19

bottled of water come on and and and

00:22:20

meet the teams and he said WR it bring

00:22:22

it bring in your business plan so I was

00:22:24

like oh yes sweet so went home went to

00:22:26

my went to Bernie I don't even think

00:22:27

we're married or maybe we were bit and I

00:22:29

said [ __ ] I've got a business plan was

00:22:32

was there Google then or no no no [ __ ]

00:22:34

no no this is like know yeah 2003 or

00:22:38

something yeah I don't know it was a

00:22:39

long time but um anyway it was a great

00:22:42

introduction and met them and they they

00:22:44

pushed them my business plan to one side

00:22:46

pretty much straight away you know and

00:22:48

said oh yeah okay well let's have a look

00:22:50

come and do it with us we'll build the

00:22:51

plan together shall we so that was a and

00:22:54

that was like business 101 you know it

00:22:55

was just like coming inside with these

00:22:57

hard notes some hard-nosed young sales

00:23:00

guys some really creative guys and just

00:23:03

this energy of in sort of um

00:23:06

entrepreneurial energy that was just

00:23:08

happening at the time in an exciting

00:23:10

category you know vodka was blowing up

00:23:12

around the world it was sort of you know

00:23:14

parties parties were sort of all

00:23:17

involved all the time so you felt like

00:23:19

it was like just fun um but at the same

00:23:22

time you're learning all these quite

00:23:24

good business sort of things and it was

00:23:26

all about sales like that when it's sold

00:23:28

everyone had to go about 42 below being

00:23:31

just a marketing story but internally

00:23:34

the culture was so hardcore sales right

00:23:37

every Monday morning every Monday

00:23:38

morning we'd have these meetings and it

00:23:39

was like from the person on the front

00:23:41

desk to the you know accountant if you

00:23:44

all expected to have sold something in

00:23:46

the last week you know and and so it's

00:23:48

just either to friends or family or

00:23:50

overseas and so it was a really good

00:23:54

environment to learn and cut your teeth

00:23:55

in so what was your job there were you

00:23:57

sort of in marketing no so we did did a

00:23:59

water business and20 420 and so they let

00:24:02

me I bought I paid bought in 25% and

00:24:06

they funded 75% and and we were sort of

00:24:10

a subsidiary of the 42 and we would go

00:24:12

and try and sell it into the bars the

00:24:13

idea was you know you people would drink

00:24:16

of water every town every now and then

00:24:19

between the their drinks and

00:24:21

responsibility corporate respons St to

00:24:23

come in so we there's this idea that and

00:24:25

if we could call it the 420 water is the

00:24:26

water that's in the Vodka so it's pure

00:24:28

driven snow and all that sort of stuff

00:24:30

so it was just that was the idea um and

00:24:32

it was it sort of worked quite well we

00:24:34

we're going okay um and then um it got

00:24:38

sold with it got tagged along when they

00:24:41

bikard bought the the Vodka so it was a

00:24:44

a good exit and you know after know two

00:24:47

years maybe 18 months no two no two and

00:24:50

a half years actually sorry um it was

00:24:52

like in and out you know it's like wow

00:24:54

this business Li it's easy did you do

00:24:57

quite well out of it

00:24:58

oh well I got tagged along so we were

00:25:00

all part of the 42 below shares we all

00:25:03

had to buy into the big company and then

00:25:05

I had to buy into that one and that got

00:25:07

valued um in probably a generous

00:25:10

valuation to be honest because it was

00:25:11

like let's just get this deal done you

00:25:13

know no wants to mess around so it was

00:25:15

just sort of easy you know and I didn't

00:25:16

have to actually do like I'd done all

00:25:19

the building of the business and The

00:25:20

Branding and the selling and traveling

00:25:22

around i' done and sourcing all so I'd

00:25:23

done all of the work but when it came to

00:25:26

selling it I just got tagged along so I

00:25:28

didn't have much to do on that part of

00:25:30

it yeah I feel like this is part of your

00:25:32

like I've listened to so many podcasts

00:25:34

over the last few days with you on and

00:25:35

you you do seem to downplay a lot of

00:25:37

stuff in your life is this oh yeah well

00:25:41

I yeah I don't know when when you've

00:25:43

done something well are you good at at

00:25:45

owning it and saying yeah I [ __ ] did

00:25:47

really well then or are you just a

00:25:49

deflector well I'm from darville right

00:25:51

and it's like if you T poppy thing yeah

00:25:54

I think so you just like I was conscious

00:25:57

growing up that do a sh off right and

00:26:00

you know I you you stand out when you're

00:26:02

a sh in a small town in New Zealand and

00:26:05

sometimes that's good sometimes not so

00:26:07

good you know and I I remember

00:26:10

being very much aware of when I was sort

00:26:13

of probably too late catching on that

00:26:16

I'd just push myself out into the middle

00:26:19

of the ring you know with without

00:26:21

realizing it you know what I mean and I

00:26:23

and then it's like ah SH now you know

00:26:26

I've done it again you know um and then

00:26:28

you know sometimes I'd be able to box my

00:26:31

way out of it and other times you know

00:26:33

there'd be too many people to take down

00:26:34

you know so it was like so I think

00:26:38

partly that forms it but then the other

00:26:40

part is like

00:26:42

internally I don't know there's not I I

00:26:46

think I I think I could probably do with

00:26:48

being a bit easier on myself that's part

00:26:50

of like I think what I was talking about

00:26:52

before you know trying to re shape or

00:26:55

reframe that mindset so that it's um um

00:26:59

you know less self-critical and and

00:27:02

maybe U but it's it's also hard wide to

00:27:07

some extent you know it's hard yeah you

00:27:09

and I are about the same age and um so

00:27:11

yeah being a blo hard was a thing the

00:27:13

last thing you wanted to be was a blow

00:27:15

hard which I I suppose part of being a

00:27:17

blow hard is like just talking yourself

00:27:18

up about anything yeah well I just would

00:27:22

mine was more physical I would like cuz

00:27:24

I was quite good at my sports or doing

00:27:26

anything so i' I would always just show

00:27:28

off physically and and verbally but like

00:27:31

physically mainly you know and then when

00:27:33

I when I threw you know when I jump on

00:27:36

the court bare feet and no and everyone

00:27:39

else has been practicing whatever and

00:27:40

I'd throw a three or something from on

00:27:42

the basketball court and just you know I

00:27:44

couldn't help myself but tell get bit's

00:27:46

face and tell them you know um and that

00:27:48

stuff like that you know just times 100

00:27:51

oh yeah cuz you were really good um you

00:27:53

were just a good allrounder right good

00:27:54

at Cricket obviously um but good at

00:27:56

rugby and basketball as well lot like

00:27:58

Jeff Wilson a je waser well Jeff was a

00:28:02

amazing allrounder um yeah I mean Jeff

00:28:05

was my com predator in cricket early on

00:28:08

for sure like I actually to such an

00:28:11

extent we would been going at it from an

00:28:13

age group he was the he was the number

00:28:16

one allrounder and I was like The

00:28:18

Pretender up and coming almost he's a

00:28:21

six months younger than me I think but

00:28:23

he was the one in the south is and then

00:28:26

I came late into it I grew late so sort

00:28:29

of all of a sudden I was challenging him

00:28:30

um and we just used to go head forhead

00:28:33

you know and I was like it was great but

00:28:35

you do something well and he instead of

00:28:38

him trying to put you down Jeff would

00:28:40

just come out and do it better the next

00:28:42

time you know and so then you were like

00:28:43

well I'm going to do it better and say

00:28:45

and we ended up playing together at Taro

00:28:47

and it was like that and it was such a

00:28:49

healthy competition I've never known

00:28:50

anyone any competition of after that

00:28:52

that was as healthy as that cuz he just

00:28:55

he had this inner belief that he was so

00:28:57

good when you did he'll do it better the

00:28:59

next time um and so we used to we used

00:29:01

to beat teams by us two Fielding at Mid

00:29:03

on and mid off in cricket and just being

00:29:06

we would just compete each other like

00:29:08

he'd dive for a ball and miss it by six

00:29:10

feet right and I'd be like what are you

00:29:12

doing a show off and then eventually

00:29:14

he'd do the same thing and then he'd get

00:29:16

a fingertip to it he'd jump up run after

00:29:18

it pick it up throw and run the guy out

00:29:20

and I'd be like so then I'd have to try

00:29:22

and do the same you know and so you just

00:29:24

we were just competing each other we

00:29:26

weren't even worried about the opp we

00:29:28

were playing so when he got picked for

00:29:30

the All Blacks it was just like it was

00:29:32

like a I didn't even see it coming I was

00:29:33

like oh my God this like guy's been

00:29:35

pulled out of my life who I've been

00:29:37

competing with and um and yeah obviously

00:29:40

is a great rugby player as well great

00:29:41

all black yeah it's it's mind-blowing

00:29:44

really okay Alo back to the business

00:29:46

stuff so yes so 42 below sales to bikard

00:29:50

um you still work on bikard though right

00:29:52

I and I heard a story this is where the

00:29:54

idea of um getting into skare came about

00:29:57

some dude in a new York moisturizing his

00:29:59

hands yeah well I sort of like I did I I

00:30:01

left when the guys left so we all you

00:30:03

know got got out um and then um they the

00:30:07

guys set up a thing called the bakery

00:30:09

and they invested in about five

00:30:10

businesses and I invested in one which

00:30:13

was a a a outerwear sort of a like a

00:30:16

gortex a natural gortex out ofwar using

00:30:18

Marino wall anyway the um after about a

00:30:22

year the science of it failed we

00:30:23

couldn't get enough hydrostatic head and

00:30:26

so it sort of we just

00:30:28

de we've lost lost on that one so we'll

00:30:31

do that and I got sort of they asked me

00:30:34

to come into the beer and I was like ah

00:30:35

actually I'm sick of doing alcohol so I

00:30:38

just sort of said oh no I'll step aside

00:30:40

and um at that time bardi needed a

00:30:43

marketing director so they said oh well

00:30:45

would you like to come back in and work

00:30:47

in the marketing for and and you know

00:30:49

work under bicat so I was like yeah it

00:30:51

sounds

00:30:52

interesting and so I did that for 3

00:30:55

years after after from there and um

00:30:58

probably learned more about what what

00:31:01

not to do or just like you know how

00:31:03

different corporate life is to ENT

00:31:05

entrepreneur life but I it was equally

00:31:08

it was probably ultimately a bit

00:31:09

frustrating so it's trying to make a

00:31:12

decision within a big corporate

00:31:13

structure that I found really hard you

00:31:16

know um so much red tape and you take a

00:31:19

rainbow and you know everyone would feel

00:31:22

compelled to add a new color to it or to

00:31:24

just change the colors a little bit

00:31:26

slightly and so by the time you got to

00:31:27

the end of of it you sort of had this

00:31:28

gray cloud because everyone had messed

00:31:31

with it you know and it's like trying to

00:31:33

get that idea through that is really was

00:31:35

really hard within that environment um

00:31:38

and I I but I sort of found it

00:31:40

challenging but I learned a lot um and I

00:31:43

sort of also learned the confidence to

00:31:45

realize I knew enough about business at

00:31:47

that point too you know it was almost

00:31:49

like an endorsement of what I'd learned

00:31:51

with the entrepreneurial guys because I

00:31:52

I was able to walk into meetings with

00:31:54

guys with double NBAs and hold my own

00:31:56

and you know bounce back ideas and and

00:32:00

because I worked on the street selling

00:32:02

and doing all of that I sort of knew the

00:32:04

business Inside Out whereas some of them

00:32:06

had come in at top level and didn't

00:32:08

really um they knew the theory and they

00:32:10

had jobs above me but you know having

00:32:12

that confidence of knowing what I was

00:32:14

talking about was was gold so so why

00:32:17

skare yeah such a random thing did you

00:32:21

have the idea so Random back then well

00:32:24

it was random well mainly because I was

00:32:25

trying to find something to do myself I

00:32:27

want the challenge was I was I was

00:32:30

ultimately bored that bicardi asked me

00:32:32

to move to London um and live over there

00:32:34

and at that stage we had I think one if

00:32:36

not two kids very young and I just

00:32:39

thought I'm going to be on a plane the

00:32:40

whole time away Bernie's going to be

00:32:42

stuck in London by herself with two kids

00:32:44

um you know it's not conducive I'd

00:32:46

already lived in the UK um and I just

00:32:49

thought I I'm not super inspired about

00:32:51

being in this job you know and I was

00:32:53

like if I'm going to ever leave I was

00:32:56

still in my 30s um if I'm ever going to

00:32:59

leave and have a go do my own business

00:33:00

it's now and ever so I sort of took

00:33:02

redundancy instead and left and um uh

00:33:06

when and the last the the story you were

00:33:10

referencing my last meeting was with a

00:33:12

agency was in New York and um it's about

00:33:15

probably 2009 I guess and there's this

00:33:18

the coolest guy in the room was this guy

00:33:19

with a waste coat and a sort of a um

00:33:22

sleeve ttoo you know and about halfway

00:33:24

through the meeting he pulled out a

00:33:26

woman's hand cream you know and sort of

00:33:28

like rubbed it on his hands and I was

00:33:30

like what the heck I was like and I sort

00:33:33

of just I guess just pondered on that on

00:33:35

the way home and it was like I mean I've

00:33:38

always used moisturizer cuz of cricket

00:33:40

you know we're in the sun I remember

00:33:43

find reading an article on Rod Stewart

00:33:46

and and how the secret of his Youth and

00:33:48

he said are you always wear Oil of Olay

00:33:50

you know and I was like [ __ ] my mom's

00:33:52

got some of that so I remember like

00:33:53

filing through her cabinet when I was

00:33:55

about 18 finding this pink pot of oil of

00:33:57

o and going little do you know and

00:34:00

hiding it in my Cricket coffin I nearly

00:34:02

got busted by Ken raford when I was

00:34:04

playing at at Taro he would have been I

00:34:06

thought he was this grizzly old guy

00:34:07

thinking back he must have been about 32

00:34:09

you know but like I was like I was like

00:34:11

about 19 18 and I'm I'm sitting in the

00:34:15

in carisbrook back then you used to have

00:34:17

to come under as old carisbrook and the

00:34:20

the the dressing room was up the top up

00:34:22

the stairs and at the back and and um so

00:34:25

it's quite a long walk and Ken was a 10

00:34:28

throw really bad and so he we' just

00:34:30

finished bowling he had opened the

00:34:31

beding got out cheaply and um I'm I'd

00:34:34

been in the shower so was oblivious to

00:34:36

all of this so I've got out of the

00:34:37

shower and I'm dipped my hand into this

00:34:39

pink pot of moisturizer and I'm mid

00:34:43

downstroke and um the door slams open

00:34:46

and his back goes flying across smashes

00:34:49

into the opposition opposite wall and

00:34:51

then Ken just sort of stops and he looks

00:34:53

at me as I'm like uh you know put my

00:34:55

hand on my face he goes

00:34:58

what are you freaking doing and I was

00:34:59

like he goes why you putting sunscreen

00:35:01

on this time of day and I was like never

00:35:05

never be too safe

00:35:08

again and all I going think was so far

00:35:11

outside his framework that I could be

00:35:12

putting a moisturizer on you know it's

00:35:14

hard to tag him in it was like it didn't

00:35:17

even exist to him so I was like that's

00:35:18

the only thing that saved it so I always

00:35:21

thought if I could build something that

00:35:22

was cool enough that if Ken ruford

00:35:24

caught me using it it wouldn't be the

00:35:26

end of the world cuz it was was so

00:35:28

Innovative at the but by the way that's

00:35:29

an interesting story like um we'll get

00:35:31

into more of that with the cricket stuff

00:35:33

cuz it's um interesting how different

00:35:34

people react and I feel like Behavior

00:35:36

like that probably wouldn't be

00:35:37

acceptable now um it's probably still

00:35:40

the odd one yeah but yeah but um like it

00:35:43

it doesn't seem very Innovative now

00:35:45

under the 2024 lens but you I mean

00:35:47

there's so many competitors as you'd

00:35:48

know better than anyone but back then

00:35:50

I've always been a moisturizer guy but I

00:35:51

think there was um maybe a limited

00:35:53

Clarance range or L'Oreal perhaps for me

00:35:56

but there was [ __ ] all right yeah yeah

00:35:58

and what I found actually weirdly cuz I

00:36:00

used it because it really did help in

00:36:02

cricket right you're in the Sun the

00:36:03

whole time like you so you'd come in and

00:36:05

after a full day in the Sun and you're

00:36:07

just like wanted some relief and that's

00:36:09

why I I used it and then you to get this

00:36:11

then it extended to getting the

00:36:12

sunscreen off you just used a scrub or I

00:36:15

remember there's a Blackmore scrub which

00:36:17

they don't make anymore and I remember

00:36:19

going when I finally realized it was

00:36:20

selling out I went around to about four

00:36:22

chemists and tried to buy up these

00:36:23

things oh like a facial scrub yeah and I

00:36:25

was like and cuz they didn't have it and

00:36:26

I was just like so good to clean all

00:36:28

that [ __ ] off your face and then to

00:36:30

moist but I remember like buying all the

00:36:32

expensive ones as I got as I start earn

00:36:34

money i' buy start buying expensive ones

00:36:37

or boring girlfriend's ones or stuff and

00:36:39

I just found that actually the way A guy

00:36:41

uses it I want it on and gone I wanted

00:36:43

to slap it on I want instant hydration

00:36:45

you know which oil of ol was awesome for

00:36:48

um and so I was like man that's the so I

00:36:51

sort of stuck with that and then when it

00:36:52

came to developing the product and the

00:36:54

range I was like man I've got this sort

00:36:55

of industrial knowledge

00:36:58

if I just applied it and then applied

00:37:00

The Branding and the marketing side that

00:37:02

I'd learned at 42 I thought you know if

00:37:05

I'm into it maybe there's a market there

00:37:07

that was sort of the extent I if I if I

00:37:09

did it all again I think I would

00:37:11

probably challenge myself harder around

00:37:14

you know the like the perfect I'd start

00:37:17

with the biggest possible field of of

00:37:20

who can buy this thing and then work

00:37:23

backwards from there you know and

00:37:24

because the perfect business is

00:37:26

something that you could only you can

00:37:28

make and it's one product and everyone

00:37:30

in the world needs it all the time you

00:37:32

know so if that's the if that's the

00:37:34

perfect business yeah you know sort of

00:37:36

like you want to sort of like keep as

00:37:39

much of that in in the framework as

00:37:41

possible yeah but I mean your products

00:37:43

are cool and they're very good as well

00:37:44

yeah thank you I love them I I think

00:37:46

early on I messaged you as like have you

00:37:48

considered doing an under ey serum so I

00:37:52

think I've been more forward than maybe

00:37:53

your average customer oh no we've

00:37:55

appreciated your feedback all all the

00:37:57

all the time actually so no we've got a

00:37:59

long long history of every time your you

00:38:02

would pop up on the online order where

00:38:04

people would run up do is purchased yeah

00:38:06

I I love giving it as um gifts they're

00:38:09

just great products

00:38:11

um yeah yeah it just seems like such a

00:38:14

fascinating thing to get into like you

00:38:15

wouldn't know where to where to start um

00:38:17

but you you look back now so how old's

00:38:19

the company now 13 yeah now 13th yeah

00:38:23

are you happy with the name you chose

00:38:25

you happy with everything else oh I

00:38:27

would do loads of things differ I love

00:38:30

the name um the name's personal to me

00:38:33

comes from that red Kipling po if which

00:38:35

my dad who just passed away actually um

00:38:37

he gave it to me when I was about 13 I

00:38:39

wasn't the great I was a I was a mouthy

00:38:42

Lippy shitty son for most of my teenage

00:38:45

years so and he was a stoic farmer so we

00:38:48

didn't talk a lot and um I remember him

00:38:51

coming home from Oakland just throwing

00:38:52

this plaque down on my bed one day and

00:38:54

saying rude that boy and I sort of

00:38:57

graffi all around the outside of it um

00:38:59

but I hadn't I didn't touch the poem and

00:39:01

it was such a beautiful poem with all

00:39:03

these wonderful pieces of advice you

00:39:05

know um one of which is if you can meet

00:39:07

with Triumph and disaster and treat

00:39:08

those two imposters the same um but it's

00:39:11

all these other things like you know if

00:39:12

you can walk with Kings and not lose a

00:39:14

common touch if you can you know Heap up

00:39:16

all of your winnings and risk it on one

00:39:19

coin toss and lose and never breathe the

00:39:21

word of your lost you know there just

00:39:22

these wonderful ideas as a young man I

00:39:25

got goosebumps just heing just wonderful

00:39:28

like that actually that one that putting

00:39:31

all your winnings and losing it all and

00:39:32

never breathing with still that I'm the

00:39:35

same I just get sort of like ah man

00:39:38

that's such how life is Right you've got

00:39:40

to you've got to live that way you know

00:39:41

risk and reward and humility and honor

00:39:44

all those things so um yeah so I'm sort

00:39:47

of so the name's great I also think even

00:39:50

if you don't know the poem you know the

00:39:52

idea of our lives are part Triumph and

00:39:54

disaster using skin care as part Triumph

00:39:57

and disaster so I like all of that um I

00:40:00

think I would you know probably I should

00:40:03

have moved to America if I'm really

00:40:05

honest you know like um that because

00:40:07

it's a niche um businesses that probably

00:40:11

I I think haven't done as good a job as

00:40:13

I did have already blown up and sold in

00:40:16

America in the same time frame so you

00:40:19

have to be in a big market and with

00:40:21

there breadth and size um New Zealand's

00:40:24

been great don't get me wrong but you

00:40:27

know it's ultimately 5 million people

00:40:28

you know spread across a a whole country

00:40:31

so we've had to do it the hard way by

00:40:33

traveling and doing Distributors and

00:40:34

things like that but you know I it's

00:40:37

also got to fit with your lifestyle

00:40:38

right so I wanted my kids to grow up

00:40:40

here I I love New Zealand love living

00:40:43

here and you know our our lives have

00:40:45

been great in a whole bunch of other

00:40:46

ways by staying here so you can't you

00:40:49

know I wouldn't change anything really

00:40:52

it's it's hard like 1% of um the New

00:40:54

Zealand Market versus 1% of the American

00:40:56

Market 1% of the American Market you're

00:40:59

you're hanging out with Zuckerberg and

00:41:01

um what have been the the hardest

00:41:02

challenges cuz you you've been through a

00:41:03

lot of the global financial crisis was

00:41:06

that were you just after that or just

00:41:08

after yeah so just after sort of started

00:41:10

at the end of that um the biggest

00:41:12

challenges of have always are always

00:41:14

cash flow you know like um and managing

00:41:19

that and and you know dealing with the

00:41:23

fear of running out of money and the

00:41:25

fear of spending all the you know we

00:41:27

sold our house when we started it and I

00:41:30

took a bunch of money off off out of

00:41:32

that and put it in and then you know um

00:41:35

so you know you walk around with the

00:41:37

sort of guilt of like spending not just

00:41:39

my money but my wife's money um and um

00:41:43

and you know so so there's all of those

00:41:46

things but I mean it's been you know

00:41:50

learning how to manage staff learning

00:41:52

that I've I've had so many great staff

00:41:54

all the way through but staff leave you

00:41:57

know sometimes you've got to let good

00:41:58

stuffff go too just through circumstance

00:42:00

that that's horrible um other times good

00:42:04

stuff leave and that feels like that's

00:42:06

that feeling of like you can't help but

00:42:09

feel that you a bit let down but you but

00:42:11

it's just their life that they're going

00:42:13

on with you know so then you've got to

00:42:14

sell the dream to the new person whilst

00:42:16

feeling a little bit hurt that the

00:42:17

person's left you know like a breaker

00:42:19

it's like it's like you know there's all

00:42:21

these things you got to learn how to

00:42:23

manage and I didn't have any experience

00:42:25

with any of that um so

00:42:28

um uh yeah what but this last bit with

00:42:31

the pandemic was really hard I think

00:42:33

emotionally a lot of small businesses in

00:42:35

New

00:42:36

Zealand have been emotionally rung out

00:42:39

um you know

00:42:40

you this the people own small businesses

00:42:43

by proportion of the population was a

00:42:45

really small percentage right and so no

00:42:48

one care everyone if you're a business

00:42:50

owner everyone thinks just assumes

00:42:51

you're going to be rich or you're rich

00:42:53

or whatever they don't give us stuff

00:42:54

that you what you've had to go through

00:42:56

to get there and so and that's fair

00:42:58

enough everyone's on their own Journey

00:42:59

but I think um through that period you

00:43:03

had to carry the um so the worries of

00:43:05

all of your staff you had the

00:43:07

uncertainty for all of them and

00:43:09

financial uncertainty and just just

00:43:12

their anxieties and their Partners

00:43:13

anxieties and whilst not knowing what

00:43:16

the future for your own business was so

00:43:17

there was a a big period of time through

00:43:20

there where it was like just emotionally

00:43:22

draining and I think coming out the

00:43:24

other side you know a lot of the

00:43:26

businesses that maybe are no longer or

00:43:28

small businesses have just W that was

00:43:30

probably more the emotional just you

00:43:33

know exhaustion than the financial side

00:43:36

of it in many cases so I think that that

00:43:39

was tiring getting through that and now

00:43:41

of course right now it's again really

00:43:44

tricky so just constant challenges eh

00:43:46

yeah yeah well actually um you know

00:43:48

Shane McKellan who was actually actually

00:43:50

the guy got me into 42 below and um he

00:43:53

always said um business business is just

00:43:56

prob solving problems you know and it's

00:43:58

sort of true like um it is just solving

00:44:03

the next problem and finding solution

00:44:06

and just accepting that there is just

00:44:08

constantly going to be another another

00:44:09

Boulder face and I think I think well I

00:44:11

think there a difference to sport see

00:44:13

sport you have like um there's an end to

00:44:15

it you know you get to play a game win

00:44:17

or lose and then celebrate or or you

00:44:20

know uh start again um whereas with

00:44:23

business it's like just constant there's

00:44:25

no not really any end and um I I think

00:44:28

that lowlevel constant pressure is

00:44:32

harder that for me to deal with

00:44:34

personally than Peak pressure like you

00:44:37

know I I used to relish the peak

00:44:39

pressure um not always succeed with it

00:44:42

sometimes that would you know you'd fail

00:44:44

miserably under it but I sort of enjoyed

00:44:48

that whereas the long slow sort of grind

00:44:50

pressur is I find a little bit more

00:44:52

tiring or you've got to find coping

00:44:55

strategies to to deal with did has has

00:44:57

there ever been any occasion where

00:44:58

you've thought about just closing the

00:45:00

doors or just throwing it in selling it

00:45:03

selling it to someone in the last

00:45:08

week or or over the whole time every

00:45:11

every second day no um no oh yeah look

00:45:16

yes and no I think you have bad nights

00:45:18

early

00:45:19

on early on you have lots of bad nights

00:45:22

where you can't sleep and so you um you

00:45:24

know spreadsheets become your friend

00:45:26

because

00:45:27

especially when you're burning money

00:45:29

ahead of the curve like you know it's

00:45:32

invoid it's unavoidable right you you

00:45:34

only making 50k a month and you spent

00:45:37

spending 70k a month it's like far out

00:45:40

this is how much longer can I keep doing

00:45:41

this for you know and so um the the

00:45:45

spreadsheet you wake up you know when

00:45:47

you wake up at 2: in the morning and

00:45:49

you're like oh my God what am I going to

00:45:51

do what can I tell my wife and then so I

00:45:53

used to when I had those nights I'd go

00:45:55

and I'd just open up a spr sh and I'd

00:45:57

like run all the numbers and I'd be like

00:45:59

how many shops do I have to get how many

00:46:00

units they have to sell I'd just like do

00:46:03

all the math and I'd get to the end of

00:46:04

it after an hour or so of like pointless

00:46:06

exercise and it would be like oh I've

00:46:08

only got to get 15 more accounts okay

00:46:10

I'll just go and do that but that that

00:46:13

that was sort of a coping strategy for a

00:46:15

while and then at a certain point you

00:46:17

know you you learn to deal with all of

00:46:19

that um just the E and flows the

00:46:21

business yeah yeah yeah and what about

00:46:23

the future of the company um well we

00:46:26

still it's not done yet and I guess you

00:46:28

know coming back to your point about you

00:46:29

know being before getting too self Cong

00:46:34

what's the word congratulatory

00:46:35

congratulatory yourself on the back yeah

00:46:37

before I get like that I I think like um

00:46:39

I don't feel like it will have really

00:46:42

succeeded until um you know either I can

00:46:45

either it's making so much money that I

00:46:46

can step out of it and not have to worry

00:46:49

or or it's wealth it's worthwhile for

00:46:52

someone to buy it you know and um and

00:46:55

you know those it's um you know those

00:46:57

two things are still a we way off it's

00:46:59

like um you know we've got I'm emplo I'm

00:47:02

an employee I get paid by the business

00:47:04

but it's um you know there's still a

00:47:06

growth curve needed um and you know a

00:47:09

lot of that was probably has been

00:47:11

extended out a few years due to that Co

00:47:13

so and not alone in that you know that's

00:47:16

probably three years going sideways we

00:47:18

didn't account for no knowing what you

00:47:20

know now you just was your stay in

00:47:22

marketing maybe not with bikard but no

00:47:25

no no I don't I don't I like like you

00:47:28

I'm really I am really proud of what

00:47:29

we've done and achieved and I like I've

00:47:31

just personally it's so stimulating you

00:47:33

know it's I got into it because it was

00:47:35

the only thing that scared scared me you

00:47:37

know and I'm sort of I needed that um

00:47:40

you know I needed to be playing for real

00:47:44

um and I felt like um I still am you

00:47:47

know I'm still in the game which is

00:47:49

which keeps me getting up I get up every

00:47:51

morning I love going to work um you know

00:47:53

I've I'm I'm trying to find new new ways

00:47:57

to build the business there's always new

00:47:59

things to learn um you know we would

00:48:02

have lik to have done done it quicker

00:48:04

better yes of course um but what would I

00:48:07

do after this you know you got to you

00:48:09

got to do something with your time right

00:48:11

um and so I think staying sort of

00:48:14

stimulated is is super important for me

00:48:16

and you know as long as I'm stimulated

00:48:18

I'm okay yeah I I agree like um I even

00:48:22

think like retirement is a bit of a hoax

00:48:24

in a way like you need a you need a

00:48:26

purpose e like you need a reason to get

00:48:28

out of bed in the morning oh 100% yeah

00:48:31

no I I think my father worked to as 84

00:48:34

he sold this farm at 84 and I reckon you

00:48:38

know that that was sort of The Benchmark

00:48:41

it's like I I sort of feel like you've

00:48:43

got to just keep working you got to be

00:48:44

stimulated right I think there's

00:48:46

different ways of work I think you know

00:48:48

dropping back to four days a week you

00:48:50

know doing different types of work do if

00:48:52

just grinding out the same work over

00:48:54

time maybe that's that becomes a bit

00:48:55

more tiring but

00:48:57

yeah you got to be stimulated involved

00:48:59

but I I also just like I'm you know I'm

00:49:02

enjoy my kids sport and coaching and you

00:49:05

know just getting involved in other

00:49:07

parts of the community now as well you

00:49:08

know so I think you know there I say it

00:49:11

like Community is where it's at you know

00:49:14

I think like you got to be involved eh

00:49:16

you know that the all the ills that we

00:49:18

see out there at the moment my big thing

00:49:20

is like lots of people have lots to say

00:49:23

about it but [ __ ] all people are getting

00:49:25

out and getting involved in their in

00:49:26

their Community you know yeah oh good on

00:49:28

you okay let's let's get back to the

00:49:30

early years so you're from Northland

00:49:32

daville yep and what what's s of farm

00:49:34

what sort of farm will you race on was

00:49:36

it a dairy farm no no not don't

00:49:40

thankfully was yeah I was the worst fun

00:49:42

boy either like we I I came off the farm

00:49:45

not not really being able to drive a

00:49:46

tractor hard could hardly ride a

00:49:48

motorcycle was dangerous with a gun you

00:49:51

know like I was like you know shoot I

00:49:53

got all the [ __ ] jobs I was dead would

00:49:55

like in you know had to go and round

00:49:57

sheep and we had dry stock so sheep and

00:50:00

cattle and I just just man I think back

00:50:03

now I cringe I cringe how I perform for

00:50:06

I remember driving across the farm one

00:50:08

day and sulking and dad was and you know

00:50:11

I was trying to make it and would have

00:50:13

been about 14 or 15 something maybe 16

00:50:16

just that age where you started to push

00:50:17

back and challenge authority and I just

00:50:19

said to my father one I said said you

00:50:22

just don't get it then and he and he

00:50:25

goes he looks at me and I go and I'm I'm

00:50:27

a race horse not a cdale and as soon as

00:50:30

the words came out of my

00:50:33

mouth as soon as the words came out of

00:50:35

my mouth I was just like oh I just I

00:50:37

never worked so hard as I did that day

00:50:39

you know I was like oh man I've just

00:50:41

lost a Year's Grace you know I can't it

00:50:44

was so bad what did he say like an old

00:50:45

an old um an old Grizzly F from up North

00:50:48

did he just buy his t or he didn't need

00:50:50

to say anything because it was just I

00:50:51

was so embarrassed once it came out I

00:50:53

was like oh where did it come from did

00:50:55

you see it on a movie on a TV oh I don't

00:50:57

know I was just like I just felt like he

00:50:58

was working me too hard like you know

00:51:00

like I you know all my mates would be at

00:51:02

the beach and I'd be going out you know

00:51:04

feeding out hay or doing some sort of

00:51:06

shitty fencing job and I was just like

00:51:08

oh man come

00:51:09

on so yes so you he was older are you

00:51:13

dad like he was uh yeah yeah so Dad yeah

00:51:17

40s when he had you 42 I think yeah so

00:51:21

um yeah so I'm the baby baby of six yeah

00:51:24

and um a disabled sister

00:51:27

uh yes well H so yes she was the next

00:51:30

one yeah Sharon so she she just had the

00:51:33

umbilical cord around her right and

00:51:35

because of small town hospital they they

00:51:38

didn't really if she had have been in

00:51:40

Oakland probably would have been fine

00:51:41

they would have just got on to it

00:51:42

quicker but you know you know I don't

00:51:44

know 10 seconds too long with without

00:51:46

oxygen at the birth and that that sort

00:51:48

of causes that brain damage she's I mean

00:51:51

she's um she's one wonderful um you know

00:51:55

in emotionally huge part of the family

00:51:57

but

00:51:58

um you know can't really couldn't live

00:52:01

in a flat by herself or cook a meal for

00:52:03

herself she could go and eat get herself

00:52:06

sort of organized but can't can't talk

00:52:09

so nonverbal um but you know um you know

00:52:14

but totally you know what she's on about

00:52:16

you know in terms of um if particularly

00:52:18

if it's an emotional thing um she's and

00:52:22

and I think to that end you know she's

00:52:23

sort of the almost the core of the

00:52:26

family way [ __ ] I can't imagine how

00:52:28

tough that was for you you like your

00:52:29

parents in particular I've got some

00:52:31

friends like that John PJ who are just

00:52:32

wonderful parents and um they've got a

00:52:34

son son and daughter and uh the the yeah

00:52:37

the daughter similar sort of thing at

00:52:39

Birth and um yeah they'd go out on

00:52:41

family holidays and Vonnie just couldn't

00:52:43

adjust to the time zone so she'd be up

00:52:44

at 3 in the morning stomping around and

00:52:47

then uh like later on they'd just go on

00:52:49

holidays with with sha and leave Vonny

00:52:51

behind with a caregiver and you know

00:52:53

they're just the most wonderful parents

00:52:54

and the wonderful family but I can't

00:52:55

imagine the guilt they f without even

00:52:56

doing that yeah H yeah and I Look to be

00:53:00

to be honest like I

00:53:02

remember you know i' i' when it was just

00:53:05

me and chairing at home I remember going

00:53:07

and waiting at the bus stop you know and

00:53:10

standing to one side not really

00:53:12

associating you know and I I always look

00:53:15

back and I'm like you know what can you

00:53:17

do you're young and stupid you're craw

00:53:19

kids are craw you don't even realize it

00:53:22

um what was it yeah like what was your

00:53:25

relationship like with your dad like cuz

00:53:27

it's um I mean you and I are in our

00:53:29

early 50s now so it it doesn't seem that

00:53:31

old at all but when you're young you

00:53:33

just want to I don't know I'm probably

00:53:34

projecting here but you just want to fit

00:53:36

him with every everyone else you don't

00:53:37

want to have an old dad no and dad was

00:53:39

an old dad like well actually we we

00:53:41

weirdly I think at the end they've stay

00:53:44

they stayed really young but when I was

00:53:46

when I was young they seemed really old

00:53:48

you know cuz all my mates they 30

00:53:50

year-old my dad M mine my 50s you know

00:53:53

and it was like and um so

00:53:57

yeah I mean how' I get on oh look dad

00:53:59

was great um but he was an older dad so

00:54:02

he'd been through the mill with everyone

00:54:04

you know and baby of the family yeah his

00:54:07

job's done the older kids can raise you

00:54:10

and I probably benefit both benefited

00:54:13

from that but also probably rallied

00:54:14

against it you know like I probably

00:54:16

wanted but he was always involved he

00:54:18

drove I mean man mom and dad drove me um

00:54:20

I mean mom's interesting as well like

00:54:22

Mom is was a paraplegic so um so Mom was

00:54:26

in a wheelchair from about 22 um they

00:54:29

got married when they were 20 so they

00:54:31

got married real young and um through a

00:54:34

medical misadventure um she had appendix

00:54:37

and they something went wrong and they

00:54:40

they damaged her spine in the in the

00:54:42

operation and then when the when she had

00:54:45

her my older sister the that that that

00:54:50

exacerbated it and so she sort of lost

00:54:52

the use of her legs um and so you know

00:54:55

Mom and Dad tried to had to live through

00:54:57

all of that and you know it wasn't like

00:54:59

a

00:55:00

complete it didn't happen like just like

00:55:03

that you know it happened over 10 years

00:55:04

that that she sort of lost um and people

00:55:07

tried to have operations to fix it so

00:55:10

that would have been a really trying

00:55:11

time way before I was bornn um and so I

00:55:14

sort of like always felt a little bit

00:55:16

like man these these guys have been

00:55:19

through a lot and you know they're

00:55:20

driving me all around the place and so I

00:55:24

was always sort of quite grateful but

00:55:26

yeah it always felt like the nashes were

00:55:27

turning up you know I'd turn up and dad

00:55:29

would turn up in a big Falcon and an old

00:55:32

dad with mom in a wheelchair and my

00:55:34

handicap sister and I was like and then

00:55:35

I'd be like this like running off to

00:55:37

play cricket you know so it was a you

00:55:40

get older and you have so much guilt

00:55:41

about that stuff like you look back but

00:55:43

at the time you just want to fit in and

00:55:45

be like I could I was just trying to get

00:55:46

out into the middle as quickly as I

00:55:47

could but yeah and what about the rest

00:55:49

of the family cuz one of those books

00:55:50

that I started with um there's a a

00:55:53

throwaway line on there was like you say

00:55:55

something like your greatest achievement

00:55:56

in cricket is getting your brother to

00:55:58

turn up to one of your matches yeah well

00:56:00

he wasn't much of a cricketer he was he

00:56:02

was a um yeah my brother was uh thought

00:56:05

I think he thought he was Jim Morrison

00:56:07

for for a while so he was a bit of a

00:56:09

loose rugby player up from up North you

00:56:12

know he play was very talented rugby

00:56:14

player talented artist and but ended up

00:56:16

working on the farm with Dad so I think

00:56:18

he was he had his own battles for dead I

00:56:21

think um so yeah their oldest son

00:56:23

classic oldest son expected to work on

00:56:26

the farm and you know I think he was

00:56:28

just you know trying too needed to

00:56:32

probably get away himself um but no he

00:56:35

he eventually came around to enjoying

00:56:36

cricket and watching it and you know

00:56:38

they're all really proud of me so and

00:56:40

you know I've got great relationships

00:56:43

with them all really but they all are

00:56:44

quite different you know and I think you

00:56:47

do over over the course of that that

00:56:49

nature nurture thing you know that you

00:56:51

know you do I

00:56:53

am different to them you know it's like

00:56:56

I grew up in a different era almost to

00:56:58

to them you know they were almost 60s 70

00:57:01

70s children you know you know and I

00:57:03

grew up really for at least a decade if

00:57:06

not more 15 years um different um and

00:57:10

it's just different times parents were

00:57:12

much more chilled out all the dramas of

00:57:15

you know whatever that they that kids

00:57:18

got up to back then what had run through

00:57:20

and I I was just left

00:57:22

to walk through walk through behind you

00:57:26

know that was pretty sweet um was was it

00:57:29

was it quite a strict discipline

00:57:30

household though like yeah it was Dad

00:57:33

was dad was we you know we grew up um

00:57:36

Mom and Dad were catholic so they grew

00:57:37

up in like quite a not not super

00:57:40

religious but it was always there you

00:57:42

expected to go to church on a Sunday and

00:57:44

I I rallied against that quite you know

00:57:47

I just couldn't understand why I had to

00:57:49

do that um and you know but and dad was

00:57:53

a quite a quite a stripped guy like he

00:57:57

was a boxer and um and and a hard worker

00:58:01

and

00:58:02

so you know between between all of those

00:58:05

there wasn't a lot of sort of give and

00:58:07

take you know it was like here's how

00:58:08

it's going to be and you know like like

00:58:11

it ormp it you know so um but you know

00:58:15

there was always love and care and you

00:58:17

know I never felt physically threatened

00:58:19

or you know I had a great upbringing

00:58:22

really but you know you do rally against

00:58:26

discipline I think as a young youngster

00:58:28

don't you yeah that sounds um that

00:58:31

sounds so similar to mine like religious

00:58:32

household felt like I was I look back I

00:58:34

feel like I was getting whacked with the

00:58:36

belt all the time all the time mom

00:58:38

wouldn't never do it she like you wait

00:58:40

till your father get home gets home and

00:58:43

then hours later wouldd be over the bed

00:58:45

getting the belt for something you

00:58:46

couldn't even remember what and then if

00:58:48

if we got in trouble for something and

00:58:49

Mom couldn't prove if it was real or not

00:58:51

she would just be like well God will

00:58:52

punish you God sees everything [ __ ] I

00:58:55

remember being marched up by the nuns

00:58:58

marched up in the middle of the

00:58:59

afternoon uh for something I'd done and

00:59:02

I at school and I was just like all I

00:59:04

could think of was like you guys have

00:59:06

got no idea how bad this is going to be

00:59:07

when my father gets home please don't

00:59:10

take me in there please don't take me in

00:59:12

there [ __ ] you I did that once to the

00:59:14

police me and a bunch of mates we had

00:59:16

some um little fireworks like double

00:59:18

happies or whatever we went around and

00:59:20

we like knock on someone's doorstep

00:59:22

light one and then run away and then we

00:59:23

got taken home by the police and I was

00:59:25

after leave when Matthew got dropped off

00:59:27

I was dropped off and I was like please

00:59:28

please can you just drop me off around

00:59:29

the corner like you don't understand

00:59:31

what's going to happen to me I was

00:59:33

probably 15 16 at the time I don't think

00:59:34

I got a whack that time from memory and

00:59:36

I think I think that was sort of Line in

00:59:38

the Sand like I didn't get a whack after

00:59:39

that yeah yeah there's definitely

00:59:42

stiffing points right but um so then so

00:59:45

so you um so you finished your school in

00:59:47

ockland right so you're in daville you

00:59:49

got a is it Oakland grar for your final

00:59:51

Orland grar finishing school yeah so we

00:59:53

were you just like um we were you just

00:59:55

like an out Talent so they were like we

00:59:57

need to harness this talent and get this

00:59:59

kid to the big smoke or I never felt

01:00:01

that oh well yeah I mean I was obviously

01:00:04

talented I'd made it all the way through

01:00:05

I was playing rep Cricket for Northern

01:00:07

districts and we played a tournament in

01:00:10

in counties and P um out that way and um

01:00:15

with pooi and um uh I remember my f

01:00:20

seeing my father talking to the ockland

01:00:22

coach we're playing ockland and I

01:00:23

remember thinking like Dad would never

01:00:26

speak to the coaches you know so I was

01:00:28

like what's he doing speaking to the O

01:00:30

he probably doesn't even know that's the

01:00:31

Oakland coach he's talking to you know

01:00:33

and um anyway I remember so we drove

01:00:35

topped in the car after the game was the

01:00:37

last game of the tournament we drove

01:00:38

home and about halfway home to darville

01:00:41

he goes are how would you feel about

01:00:42

going to con GMA next

01:00:44

year um and I was like yeah sounds great

01:00:49

and then the the opposition coach was

01:00:52

the grar uh cricket coach Graham Sim and

01:00:57

I don't know what sort of deal that

01:00:58

worked out but next thing I knew I was

01:01:00

found myself sort of arriving down at

01:01:02

tb's house on Mountain Road and and I

01:01:05

was enrolled at grammar and yeah then I

01:01:08

it was just like it was it was sort of

01:01:11

magic you know like I Pro I I was all

01:01:13

set to do another my final year at

01:01:14

darville um high and that would have

01:01:16

been fine you know I was playing senior

01:01:18

Club Cricket for Northland I was already

01:01:20

sort of on my way I was on the I'd been

01:01:23

Rec recognized as at that stage so I

01:01:26

probably but but where it did change was

01:01:29

like just my schooling and coming across

01:01:34

that Winners attitude that they have at

01:01:35

Oakland grammar you know like I ended up

01:01:37

playing getting in the first 15 um as a

01:01:40

squad as well you know and

01:01:43

um uh I remember walking in at the going

01:01:46

into the headmaster's office after being

01:01:48

picked in the first 15 and um he set

01:01:51

everybody down and just John Graham and

01:01:54

you know he was this man of immense

01:01:56

Manor and sort of staunch as and he just

01:01:59

goes I just want you all to understand

01:02:02

everybody who plays you this year will

01:02:04

play their best game of rugby against

01:02:06

you and he said you are the number one

01:02:10

target every if they if a team beats you

01:02:13

and they lose every other game of the

01:02:15

season they'll have had a great season

01:02:17

because they've beaten you he said so

01:02:20

zero excuses you know that's how it's

01:02:22

going to be every team is going to be a

01:02:25

tough game and it was just the first

01:02:27

time in my life that I'd heard you know

01:02:29

that Winner's perspective of like you're

01:02:32

number one you know you're are you are

01:02:34

the target um and you didn't don't get

01:02:37

that much in New Zealand you know maybe

01:02:39

if you're an all black or or only really

01:02:41

sort of at a school like Oakland grammar

01:02:43

and

01:02:44

um and for that lesson alone I think it

01:02:48

was really really really valuable you

01:02:50

know cuz it was like wow that you can be

01:02:53

out in front you can be the number one

01:02:55

target you don't you're not always

01:02:57

fighting you know as the underdog you

01:02:59

know um and so I really enjoyed that you

01:03:04

know and I actually flourished there you

01:03:06

know um it's funny cuz early on you just

01:03:09

told that story about you and Jeff

01:03:10

Wilson sort of driving each other on so

01:03:11

I'm guessing 16 17 year old Dion from

01:03:15

the country in Oakland same sort of

01:03:17

thing you're surrounded by people that

01:03:18

are pushing you did you did you um did

01:03:22

you feel like hot [ __ ] coming down or

01:03:24

did you feel like an impostor like [ __ ]

01:03:26

I don't belong here did you feel like

01:03:28

you were good enough to be here I felt

01:03:29

like I needed to prove myself fully like

01:03:31

I was really determined to prove myself

01:03:33

I didn't feel like hot [ __ ] I felt I I

01:03:36

knew a couple of guys there there was um

01:03:38

you know Blair pook who I'd played

01:03:40

against and with um Mike cig um who was

01:03:43

a very good cricketer and I played a lot

01:03:45

with um he was around um Matt horn had

01:03:48

just left so I sort of had KN known a

01:03:49

few people but um uh no I I I didn't

01:03:55

there was none of there I just went down

01:03:56

really determined I saw it for what it

01:03:58

was which was an opportunity um you know

01:04:01

and I thought I'm taking this with both

01:04:02

hands you know and I I I just had a

01:04:05

great year it was like you know I I won

01:04:08

the batting award I didn't win the

01:04:10

bowling award actually um which is you

01:04:12

know probably the one I thought I would

01:04:14

go down and win end up winning the

01:04:16

batting award and and I and and just

01:04:18

having this great year we won

01:04:20

but being in the hostel you know meeting

01:04:23

all those guys hanging out with guys who

01:04:26

were in 7A and 7B academically I wasn't

01:04:29

I was in way way down in 7f but hanging

01:04:33

out with them in the hosel and learning

01:04:35

how the hard they were studying was like

01:04:37

oh wow so this is just like training you

01:04:39

know is okay just go do the hours and

01:04:42

you know guess what you get better you

01:04:44

know um stuff like that which I just

01:04:46

hadn't been exposed to um and so I just

01:04:50

I just loved it I was like a sponge um

01:04:52

and DJ Graham was so amazing as a

01:04:57

Headmaster you know the the effect that

01:05:00

that guy had over so many boys that went

01:05:02

through those schools you know um that

01:05:04

school I should say um you know he he he

01:05:08

just he was a man of principle and and

01:05:13

simple basic rules and if you followed

01:05:15

those you okay you know and if and but

01:05:18

he he would accept your argument if it

01:05:20

was different if he didn't care about it

01:05:22

but if it were half-hearted and it was a

01:05:23

flaky argument man he got SP around so

01:05:26

quick it was it was like you know um so

01:05:30

yeah no it was it was just great and

01:05:32

what also happened is all lots of those

01:05:34

guys that I met at Grandma were going on

01:05:36

to University and and so that's what

01:05:37

sort of ultimately got me to UNI you

01:05:40

know so you went to aago did you yeah

01:05:41

what did you want to do then did you did

01:05:43

you want to be a New Zealand cricketer

01:05:45

did you have a career plan yeah I no my

01:05:47

only career plan was to make the cricket

01:05:48

team and buy enough time from my parents

01:05:50

that I could do it and wouldn't have to

01:05:52

work in the mill or the farm so it was

01:05:54

like man I'm just like

01:05:56

uni uni sign me up um so yeah I started

01:06:00

out I started out doing law cuz you know

01:06:01

that that pleased everybody uh and then

01:06:04

I failed well I passed law in my first

01:06:06

year but had had to pass much better

01:06:08

than I did um and so I ended up doing a

01:06:11

ba um in sociology and his art history

01:06:15

and all the the big names how's that

01:06:17

working out for you these days coming in

01:06:18

handy actually it was the best degree I

01:06:21

ever could have done it was um so like

01:06:23

it's a study of people right so it was

01:06:26

like uh you know it ends up being really

01:06:28

great for marketing but I I always say

01:06:31

i' I really I learned how to think at

01:06:34

University you know I'd been learning

01:06:35

how to just regurgitate things by rout

01:06:39

prior to that and um I always remember

01:06:42

in history American history this um uh I

01:06:46

was really struggling I needed to get

01:06:48

this paper to finish my La last year and

01:06:51

and the exams coming up and I've been

01:06:53

writing longer and longer essays you

01:06:54

know and I've been getting C's and C

01:06:56

minuses and I was like man this and this

01:06:59

lady Professor I can't remember her name

01:07:01

was just it felt so personal it was like

01:07:03

she's crushing me she doesn't doesn't

01:07:06

and I remember meeting a guy who's doing

01:07:07

honors and he was in my class and I was

01:07:10

like and I just said man I'm I don't

01:07:12

know what I'm doing wrong but you know

01:07:15

I'm just struggling he goes well what

01:07:17

are you struggling he goes and sort of

01:07:19

told him and he goes ah dude you just

01:07:22

have to imagine that you were there and

01:07:24

I was like what do you mean he goes just

01:07:26

put yourself there like you like you

01:07:29

know and he used the examples of the of

01:07:31

Jackson and the Indians putting them

01:07:33

Jackson put them on the reserves and you

01:07:35

know retrospectively it's this big deal

01:07:38

you know these people were put off their

01:07:39

lands on the reserves but at the time it

01:07:42

was just Jackson solving a problem and

01:07:44

going man I just don't I just want this

01:07:46

problem solved and out of my way so I

01:07:48

can get my voters to vote for me and and

01:07:51

so when you put yourself back into the

01:07:53

times and think about what he was

01:07:54

dealing with it's a Al different aspect

01:07:56

of History than what we when we look

01:07:59

back with that lens you know and so

01:08:02

thinking that taught me to think you

01:08:03

know that's interesting and um was it a

01:08:06

good time down there it was rich for

01:08:08

sports right Mark Alis was down there

01:08:10

who who who were you rubbing shoulders

01:08:11

with no yeah know well Mark and Josh

01:08:14

corfield and sort of Aaron p and and

01:08:17

John teu that was the sort of John

01:08:19

Lesley they were all the they were and

01:08:21

you know they were the Legends down

01:08:23

there cuz they were the in the vity 18

01:08:25

and a Target team um so I was I was off

01:08:28

to the side with all the cricketers um

01:08:30

but um any cricketers have not who was

01:08:33

uh uh well Jeff Wilson wasn't at Uni but

01:08:36

he was playing down there um Ken

01:08:39

Rutherford was there so we we did really

01:08:41

well we got into the finals when we we

01:08:43

had a good team Mark Richardson came

01:08:46

down towards the end um and um who else

01:08:51

yeah there's I've boun just have

01:08:53

insulted a whole bunch of people but um

01:08:55

the yeah but the um but yeah no I mean

01:08:58

but hanging out at Uni was just great

01:09:00

you know and we worked hard played hard

01:09:02

you know it was it was just fun all the

01:09:04

time there's always something on yeah

01:09:06

any um any good University stories that

01:09:08

you can share CU it was around this time

01:09:10

didn't Mar Ellis get done for like drunk

01:09:12

driving he was riding around on a

01:09:13

scooter with like a watermelon on his

01:09:15

head oh yeah there was loads of stuff

01:09:16

like that I remember uh I mean look yeah

01:09:19

most of it you can't really

01:09:21

tell if I'm honest a lot of these

01:09:23

stories don't a lot of these stories

01:09:24

don't age well yeah no that's right

01:09:26

that's I did hear a story about you on

01:09:28

another podcast um you you you were at a

01:09:31

pear jam concert you in the front row

01:09:32

Shir off um Eddie VI got a mouth full of

01:09:35

wine spat it on the crowd and you opened

01:09:38

your Gob I got a got a good Gob fill in

01:09:41

yeah I thought I'd been like blessed

01:09:43

from like you know on high so that sort

01:09:47

of paints a picture of the sort of Dion

01:09:48

Nash where we dealing within early I

01:09:51

also turned up I one I can tell is I a

01:09:54

few years l later that pill Jam were

01:09:56

back and um we play we played I think

01:10:00

either Australia or Zimbabwe in Oakland

01:10:02

and there's a pill Jam concert at Mount

01:10:04

smart and um that night and so I was

01:10:08

like um came back to my flat afterwards

01:10:11

you know we' won the game he runs on a

01:10:13

high runs cocktails and stuff and so I

01:10:16

put my my fian cow pants sort of pants

01:10:19

on that I bought in London I've got like

01:10:21

some sort of like sleeveless top

01:10:23

girlfriend's painted like my hands black

01:10:25

fingernails you know and probably you

01:10:27

know I don't know what else they had

01:10:29

on you know you know and I'm like anyway

01:10:33

we tune up and go to this concert and

01:10:35

have this great night with my mates at

01:10:37

this concert you know and I'd arrange to

01:10:39

meet the guys at um at uh guasu which is

01:10:44

on panel rise afterwards and um anyway

01:10:47

so you know about 11:30 at night 12:00

01:10:50

night we've left the console get in

01:10:52

there and all the cricket teams in that

01:10:54

gr having having their drinks and so I I

01:10:56

joined

01:10:57

them and I'm sort of out of the cabin

01:11:00

I'm walking in and this guy this older

01:11:03

gentleman jumps up from the table at the

01:11:04

front of guasu and comes down and then

01:11:06

meets me and he comes up and he sticks

01:11:08

his hand out goes Dion great game today

01:11:11

mate and I was like oh all I could see

01:11:14

is like my hand was coming out was black

01:11:15

fingernail polished as I was like I was

01:11:18

trying to put my hand on the name I was

01:11:20

like oh thanks mate like and you know

01:11:23

all the opposition team were in there

01:11:25

it's like all you know when you're all

01:11:26

of a sudden you're like oh not

01:11:28

everything translates as like it should

01:11:30

yeah cuz it's it's um yeah it's worth

01:11:32

like highlighting it's a different time

01:11:34

back then as well you guys just weren't

01:11:36

wearing nail po no no it was there it

01:11:38

wasn't wasn't done I remember yeah it

01:11:41

was quite well received at the concert

01:11:42

people were like went down okay there

01:11:44

but not so much with your sports Manel R

01:11:48

different look for different group of

01:11:49

friends so um yeah so so so you make the

01:11:52

New Zealand cricket team um you you were

01:11:55

quite inexperienced right I don't know a

01:11:57

lot about Cricket but it sounds like i'

01:11:58

play three I'd played three games yeah

01:12:00

it was ridiculous it was crazy we in

01:12:03

hindsight like having been a selector

01:12:05

yourself were you like FasTrack too

01:12:08

quickly I mean it worked out good well I

01:12:11

yes I absolutely was yeah I absolutely

01:12:13

was like and you know what what happens

01:12:16

is you what it what it did AO is fast

01:12:19

trct way too quick so I went away on

01:12:20

tour but where it really became

01:12:23

problematic was then I I had to go back

01:12:25

to domestic Cricket after that and all

01:12:29

of these hardened domestic players who

01:12:31

had been overlooked for me then just had

01:12:33

it in for me so then I just copped it

01:12:36

really bad for like probably two seasons

01:12:38

you know like you know and I was always

01:12:41

you know everyone's accusing me of you

01:12:42

know getting screwed by the captain or

01:12:44

you know like and you know blowing the

01:12:47

coach yeah it was all you know and and

01:12:49

but when you're 20 21 years of age it's

01:12:53

but you don't have the coping strategy

01:12:55

to have it when a 35y old man's just

01:12:57

abusing you for an hour and a half at a

01:12:59

time you know and it's like you just

01:13:01

don't really understand it you know and

01:13:03

you look back now it just wouldn't it

01:13:05

wouldn't be acceptable now you know but

01:13:07

like back then the Umpire did nothing

01:13:10

you just young guy just stood there in

01:13:12

the middle while you're Banning and you

01:13:14

just have a a team abusing you for two

01:13:16

hours and then you you know and you're

01:13:18

like it was just sort of like the the

01:13:21

way it was I'm not blaming anyone that

01:13:23

was the culture of the cricket scene and

01:13:25

it was sort of ugly um and you know we

01:13:29

I'm no saint I went on to do things like

01:13:31

that myself to young players later you

01:13:33

know and it's like you look back now and

01:13:35

you're like man what on Earth why didn't

01:13:38

someone step in and that that was never

01:13:40

the right way to for any of us to have

01:13:42

been behaving but it's also human nature

01:13:44

right like some young punk gets plays

01:13:46

three games and gets picked in the black

01:13:48

caps and you've played Five Seasons and

01:13:51

you've taken all these wickets and

01:13:52

you're clearly a better player like what

01:13:55

you're not going to tune up and give

01:13:56

them a easy ride are you you're going be

01:13:58

into them no but I suppose uh the way to

01:14:01

do it now would just be to let your

01:14:02

Cricket do the talking like bow you know

01:14:05

make this guy look like a fool and there

01:14:06

were some players who did that too right

01:14:08

so it wasn't everyone but um but you

01:14:11

know but quite often you you know you

01:14:13

there'd be a couple of Hit Men Who would

01:14:14

do the majority of it you know do and

01:14:18

the fact that you're bringing up now I

01:14:19

suppose this maybe answers my question

01:14:20

but it did it sort of taint your

01:14:22

experience yeah I I came back from my

01:14:24

first tour and I didn't want to play for

01:14:25

black caps ever again wow yeah and it

01:14:28

took me a year in the wilderness to sort

01:14:30

of go away and just work out and get my

01:14:33

love for the game back

01:14:35

um yeah and you know um I there's a

01:14:39

whole bunch to that I was too young I

01:14:41

was too IMM mature emotionally not up

01:14:43

for it um got it had wasn't treated that

01:14:47

well um didn't perform very well thing

01:14:50

got dropped thing got bullied thing got

01:14:53

you know so it was all of the stuff and

01:14:54

you're just like man think I might just

01:14:56

go do something else you know bully by

01:14:58

or you know just in the domestic scene

01:15:00

you just I just once you got back but

01:15:02

then all a sudden it was like I I

01:15:04

actually remember I played a game in

01:15:06

luget which they had this all whites

01:15:08

versus All Blacks which was before we

01:15:10

were the black caps we were the all and

01:15:12

they had this game in lugger and um all

01:15:14

some of the old All Blacks would play

01:15:16

the cricketers in um this game and I I

01:15:20

got taken along to it and played in it

01:15:22

and I remember afterwards um uh uh it

01:15:26

was um Robbie Deans and

01:15:29

um uh Ellen houon Robbie Deans Ellen

01:15:32

Houston and Kieran Crowley oh wow sat me

01:15:35

down in the this hotel room with a and

01:15:37

had a beer and I was just like sitting

01:15:39

with these

01:15:41

Le right and and um they said oh so

01:15:45

what's the story you've been dropped and

01:15:46

I was like yeah and you know I like oh

01:15:48

it's okay you know and they they're like

01:15:49

they like it's okay what are you talking

01:15:52

about and I was like oh you know then

01:15:54

you guys they just deserve to be there

01:15:55

you know and I was and politically

01:15:57

correct and they were like [ __ ] off mate

01:16:01

what do you what do you mean it's okay

01:16:02

don't you want to be there don't you

01:16:03

don't you think you're good enough and

01:16:05

they just drilled me for and I was like

01:16:08

I remember

01:16:09

thinking man that's how Champions think

01:16:12

you know what am I doing I'm just suling

01:16:14

being a twit um and I always remember

01:16:19

that and I sort of like you know it was

01:16:21

that difference between how great rugby

01:16:23

all blacks were thinking and in the

01:16:26

environment that was the cricket

01:16:27

environment at that time I'd been just

01:16:29

I'd just been left alone and no one had

01:16:30

got around me and said hey shake this

01:16:34

funk you know off and get back in on the

01:16:37

horse you know um but these guys did

01:16:40

they recognized it and far I so

01:16:42

appreciated it I've never I don't think

01:16:44

I've seen any of them ever since

01:16:46

actually to say thank you but um and it

01:16:49

was one of those things I from that game

01:16:51

on I just had this instant change of

01:16:54

attitude and I was like like that was

01:16:55

that was me getting back on the horse

01:16:57

straight after that game then ended up

01:16:59

making the New Zealand team again and

01:17:01

just the reset you needed eh yeah yeah

01:17:03

but it was that winnner thinking you

01:17:05

know like Robbie Deans in particular I

01:17:08

just remember him drilling me straight

01:17:10

before straight in the forehead going

01:17:12

what are you saying mate where are you

01:17:15

know I was like oh man I it was it was

01:17:19

just the fire I needed you know it was

01:17:21

perfect and in the um the New Zealand

01:17:23

team environment and those those early

01:17:25

years when you're a young player is it

01:17:27

was it quite a supportive environment or

01:17:29

was it sort of every was it quite clicky

01:17:31

clicky um I think the players would say

01:17:34

they were supportive in their own ways

01:17:36

and but they had they were the product

01:17:38

of their environment right so they were

01:17:40

only it was an individual sport Semi-Pro

01:17:44

u a couple of superstars the rest of the

01:17:46

people were teachers in the off season

01:17:49

and you know part-time trying to

01:17:51

struggle to make it you know travel the

01:17:53

world have a few beers it was sort

01:17:55

of so you know I we were the cusp of

01:17:59

that early stage of true professionalism

01:18:02

and um you know it was only towards the

01:18:04

end of my career that we were actually

01:18:05

getting paid properly and professional

01:18:07

and had the support structures starting

01:18:09

to come around so um yeah I mean look it

01:18:13

wasn't all bad they were good people all

01:18:15

the way through you know um and and but

01:18:18

people were focused on getting their own

01:18:19

job done you know that was a hard tough

01:18:22

environment you know guys like Andrew

01:18:23

Jones I remember being ad admiring how

01:18:25

he went about things but he didn't have

01:18:27

any room for me in that you know cuz it

01:18:30

was like he had to get his job done you

01:18:31

know Martin Crow the same you know like

01:18:34

um you know th those guys were Legends

01:18:38

and and amazing but they didn't have

01:18:41

time to build the culture or they didn't

01:18:43

have the enough support around to build

01:18:45

a culture that brought everyone else

01:18:47

into that or showed the pathway to that

01:18:49

um which you know that I don't put that

01:18:52

blame on them at all that's just a time

01:18:55

in place you know if they had have been

01:18:57

given the support structures the modern

01:18:58

day teams have imagine what we could

01:19:01

they could have achieved yeah would also

01:19:03

yeah you you look at the alls at the

01:19:04

same time there was a whole like back

01:19:06

row of the bus thing and you know if

01:19:08

you're a junior player the senior

01:19:09

players wouldn't even talk to you or

01:19:11

acknowledge Your Existence it's just

01:19:13

just how it was yeah m m actually made

01:19:15

the um remember that there used to be

01:19:16

those old black trials you know the

01:19:17

possibles and problems a m mine uh made

01:19:20

the possibles one year and he was like

01:19:22

opposite Fitzy Sean Fitz Patrick and he

01:19:24

saw him in the the hotel for some

01:19:26

breakfast and he went up to him and

01:19:27

introduced himself and said oh you know

01:19:29

any chance of sitting down and picking

01:19:30

your brains and F he told him to [ __ ]

01:19:33

off I feel like it's a different

01:19:35

environment now different culture and

01:19:37

and society and sport in general yeah

01:19:40

it's I mean so many things have changed

01:19:42

but yeah none of that surprises you

01:19:45

right that I can exactly imagine that

01:19:47

happening yeah um I said let's talk some

01:19:51

of the highs and some of the lows so one

01:19:52

of the highs I'm guessing 1994 and Lords

01:19:55

which is the H Cricket you become the

01:19:57

first person ever to score 50 then take

01:19:59

11 wickets in a test yeah yeah

01:20:02

um so you so you went on as a batsman so

01:20:05

you weren't particularly good at batting

01:20:06

at that level I I had been a good batter

01:20:09

through youth Cricket you you I I sort

01:20:12

of always wish I had have taken my

01:20:14

batting a bit more seriously because it

01:20:16

but in the end it's the you know the the

01:20:19

quickest and easiest route that you take

01:20:21

right and I ended up that ended up being

01:20:22

bowling but as a young player I was

01:20:24

probably is got a better as bowler but

01:20:27

over time the bowling took over um so I

01:20:30

could always bet um I wish I had have

01:20:34

given it more now because that would

01:20:35

have given me longevity and it's also

01:20:37

one of those things that I don't feel

01:20:39

like my statistics or my or really do

01:20:42

justice to how good a player I was does

01:20:44

it do does it bother you now or of

01:20:46

course does

01:20:48

it like when like sometimes in the

01:20:51

shower is it something you think about

01:20:53

or when you're driving the car just pops

01:20:55

up randomly you can't control when it

01:20:57

pops in but like no I

01:20:59

mean also like the um you know I got

01:21:03

injured a lot right so you it was just

01:21:07

the bowling side I was always playing

01:21:09

injured in the second half of my career

01:21:11

so you're always dealing with injuries

01:21:13

and recovering from injury so you even

01:21:15

the windows that you got were always

01:21:18

never quite pure you know they were

01:21:20

always there was always something

01:21:21

limiting you or holding you back or

01:21:23

whatever and so being a better and being

01:21:26

a better

01:21:27

batsman um than I than my statistics

01:21:29

showed I I I probably should have put

01:21:31

that to the Forefront and really driven

01:21:33

that side of it but again I just

01:21:35

mentally wasn't up for that challenge at

01:21:37

the time you know like you just you get

01:21:38

worn down by a bunch of things and you

01:21:40

take the easiest route I think but um

01:21:43

yeah I mean I I I I do pride myself I I

01:21:47

it's one of those things that you know

01:21:49

like everything is in its place but that

01:21:52

I went to a friends one of my best mates

01:21:54

got married in Jamaica Married An

01:21:56

American um girl and that they and we

01:21:59

went to the wedding in Jamaica and it

01:22:01

was this beautiful amazing wedding in

01:22:03

The Cliffs and off the cliffs in Jamaica

01:22:05

and um in American weddings you have the

01:22:08

the wedding before the wedding which is

01:22:10

of run through but that's when all the

01:22:12

actual speeches take place so it's sort

01:22:13

of like it's more formal than a run

01:22:15

through it's actual it's more casual

01:22:17

version of the wedding it's quite

01:22:18

interesting and then the formal wedding

01:22:20

happens the next night but at that um

01:22:23

the the the father of the groom got up

01:22:27

and introduced me to all these Americans

01:22:28

and he said um oh this is the ones he

01:22:31

was um he was one of the players of his

01:22:33

generation in cricket and I've always

01:22:36

thought because i' I'm always

01:22:37

uncomfortable with how you you always

01:22:39

you never know how to get how to where

01:22:42

you fit in the whole Echelon of of

01:22:44

cricket and everyone looks at Statistics

01:22:46

over time and I just thought that was

01:22:48

the the best way i' I've ever I'd ever

01:22:50

felt I felt comfortable with how that

01:22:52

described me you know like for that era

01:22:54

from my era I was one of the players of

01:22:56

that generation you know and it's like

01:22:58

you know along with the other guys who

01:23:00

did well in that era and I think that's

01:23:02

a really clean way of saying it and it's

01:23:05

like that's all you can be right and in

01:23:08

your in your time period are you one of

01:23:11

the best players and and and did you do

01:23:13

well you know that's sort of it you you

01:23:15

got to Captain uh for a while like in

01:23:18

the history of New Zealand Cricket how

01:23:19

many Captain have they been 20 30 I mean

01:23:22

come on yeah it was funny little thing

01:23:23

though the only teams I played against

01:23:25

as Captain I did uh I think a test mat

01:23:28

couple of what I do three three test

01:23:30

matches I think and and five1 days four1

01:23:32

days I can't remember five1 days anyway

01:23:35

but the only people I kept in were ended

01:23:37

up both do done for match

01:23:39

fixing against so was like hzi Kan and

01:23:43

and Muhammad azen but who were both

01:23:45

great players but unfortunately yeah

01:23:47

cross the line I always wonder whether

01:23:49

my results are slightly

01:23:51

tainted we never know so oh yes so 94

01:23:55

game at Lords um is your name on an

01:23:58

honors board there at all I've had Mark

01:24:00

Richardson in the podcast and his name

01:24:01

is on an honors board forgetting a

01:24:02

century there and he's never never seen

01:24:04

it but he said if he saw it in in real

01:24:06

life it'd probably you'd be quite

01:24:07

emotional about it yeah uh of yeah so

01:24:10

they've changed that actually so when we

01:24:12

they've changed the the things around so

01:24:14

when it first happened um it was on the

01:24:17

other end of the of the r was like sort

01:24:18

of quite a a cream colored board and um

01:24:22

we got into trouble because Blair po got

01:24:24

up and and scratched my name and a

01:24:27

pencil and and it was like Lord and I

01:24:30

was like oh my gosh and so that got

01:24:32

covered up as a thing that happened and

01:24:35

I um anyway so and then I went back to

01:24:38

play there for Middle sex the a year

01:24:40

later so I got a contract so I saw it

01:24:42

all the time because I'd just go and you

01:24:44

know yeah it's still there um but I went

01:24:48

back recently um 40 cuz trium disaster

01:24:52

sponsored middle sex so I went back and

01:24:54

and um we were sort of middle the middle

01:24:57

middle six guys and and they showed me

01:24:58

around and I went into the room and they

01:25:00

changed it all it's all totally

01:25:02

different and the honors Bo is down the

01:25:04

other end and so it's moved down it's

01:25:05

not a big dark mahogany one now so you

01:25:08

know even at even at the house of uh the

01:25:10

home of cricket they changed things but

01:25:12

um yeah it is emotional it's like all

01:25:14

the great events of of that have

01:25:17

happened you know and so it it means a

01:25:19

lot there's a lot of great players who

01:25:21

don't have their names up there you know

01:25:22

so it's it's a good thing to be

01:25:25

yeah oh it's incredible yeah like it's

01:25:27

it's it's there forever like it

01:25:28

establishes you as one of the greatest

01:25:30

cricketers of all time oh well I I think

01:25:33

I think see that's where I always get

01:25:34

uncomfortable right it's like I

01:25:37

did I think there's only there's only a

01:25:40

probably three players I would put into

01:25:42

that category in New Zealand history you

01:25:44

know and I you know and there's probably

01:25:46

a bunch that sit below that and who'll

01:25:48

be totally offended but you know I only

01:25:50

put probably Martin Crow Richard Headley

01:25:52

and probably Kane Williamson in that

01:25:53

issue on of that I would say great of

01:25:56

the game and the rest of us at different

01:25:59

times have done wonderful things some

01:26:01

people are pushing up closer into that

01:26:03

realm yeah but you know those are those

01:26:05

people sustained it and were the elite

01:26:08

in in the in that grouping for their

01:26:11

whole careers you know some some have

01:26:13

popped in there at different times and

01:26:15

dropped out and others have done one or

01:26:17

two decent things so but which is not to

01:26:20

diminish how I feel about my things but

01:26:22

the reality is I got you know over a

01:26:24

10-year career I played 30 tests you

01:26:26

know like it's I I I think in the same

01:26:28

period of time there's probably 100

01:26:30

tests played you know so I missed nearly

01:26:32

two-thirds of my career through injury

01:26:34

um so it's just that alone rules you out

01:26:37

of you know having the numbers you know

01:26:40

yeah although I mean yeah you're a music

01:26:43

guy so the I mean there's Beatles versus

01:26:45

the stones like um the stones have got

01:26:47

longevity The Beatles didn't have

01:26:49

longevity but well no well no you're

01:26:52

right and look in in of the day like I

01:26:54

we're all just trying to I'm just trying

01:26:55

to place it in a way that I feel

01:26:57

comfortable you know like I I know I

01:27:00

could have done more and that and but

01:27:03

then at the same time you know you come

01:27:05

back to this guy and this guy believed

01:27:07

in a whole lot of stuff that was not

01:27:10

aligned with being a professional

01:27:12

Sportsman and I'm proud of those things

01:27:14

that that he believed in as much as I as

01:27:17

the things that made him good at sport

01:27:19

so you know I carry all of that and I'm

01:27:22

proud that I stuck to those things you

01:27:24

know spoke up at times and stood out and

01:27:28

did the wrong things blatantly at times

01:27:31

you know that I'm as proud of those and

01:27:33

as much as I regret some of it I'm also

01:27:36

proud of it you know so all right well

01:27:38

let's get into that so you from 1994

01:27:41

inls to um the 1995 weed smoking

01:27:44

incident now a lot of people listening

01:27:46

to this wouldn't have even been born at

01:27:48

the time a lot of them won't remember it

01:27:50

and maybe this will this will you bring

01:27:52

back some memories but this was a big

01:27:54

[ __ ] Nationwide incident at the time

01:27:57

this is crazy yeah so where in the world

01:28:00

were you South Africa pal so and you

01:28:04

Steven Fleming Matthew Hart Matthew Hart

01:28:08

yeah you you all got done for smoking

01:28:10

smoking pot yes yeah we did Big Time

01:28:13

yeah it was crazy um a game got called

01:28:16

off early it was Christmas um so we we'

01:28:19

been we're touring in South South Africa

01:28:22

and there over Christmas so it was a

01:28:24

long time away from home um game got

01:28:26

called off because of a dangerous pitch

01:28:28

which in itself I think has only

01:28:29

happened twice in the history of the

01:28:32

game that a pitch a game's been caught

01:28:34

off because of a dangerous pitch what

01:28:35

does that mean well it means when the

01:28:37

ball was bouncing it was just hitting

01:28:39

going straight and hitting people in the

01:28:40

head or hting them in the toe it was

01:28:41

just unplayable so they called the game

01:28:43

off cuz P was going to get hurt I think

01:28:45

three people got hit in the head in the

01:28:46

first hours right so we ended up with an

01:28:49

extra day um or extra two days that we

01:28:52

didn't had accounted for so um and of

01:28:55

course we're in pal which is the wine

01:28:57

growing area party area of of South

01:29:00

Africa it's leading to Christmas

01:29:02

everyone's partying and we end up

01:29:04

getting at short notice involved in this

01:29:06

Vineyard going invited to this vineyard

01:29:08

with some of the opposition

01:29:10

players and long story short one of our

01:29:13

team and one of the opposition team

01:29:14

started talking about pot around the

01:29:16

table and there's about 11 of us all

01:29:18

around this table maybe more and

01:29:21

um I just we started saying yeah I've

01:29:24

smoked it you know I've smoked at

01:29:26

University other people said similar

01:29:29

stories and INX saying after it all sort

01:29:32

of verbally got involved in this

01:29:35

conversation then this big back pot

01:29:36

comes out on the table and it's like I

01:29:38

remember thinking ah Shivers you know

01:29:41

you know this is like been sort of now

01:29:44

now we're into this uh it was a bit and

01:29:47

I remember there when I remember

01:29:49

thinking a fim's here that'll be okay at

01:29:51

least I've got a buddy and fim you know

01:29:54

uh we he's a he was a young player um

01:29:57

and there were a few senior players

01:29:58

around and you know one guy in

01:30:01

particular been pretty vocal and and I

01:30:03

was like anyway all these they started

01:30:05

rolling with those joints and Hing them

01:30:07

around anyway came all the way around

01:30:09

had a puff and everyone else had a puff

01:30:11

and then um I remember thinking [ __ ] the

01:30:15

most vocal guy hasn't had any and I

01:30:17

remember thinking ah man that's who was

01:30:20

that a New Zealand guy yeah yeah and I

01:30:21

remember thinking oh man you don't want

01:30:23

to say who it is no no no it's not there

01:30:26

there's no point in saying any any of it

01:30:28

you know and it's like it's like but I

01:30:30

just remember thinking ah that that's

01:30:32

what I I should have I shouldn't have I

01:30:33

didn't have to I remember thinking I

01:30:35

didn't have to partake you know was it

01:30:37

an element of peer pressure or it felt a

01:30:39

little bit like that I just but not I'm

01:30:41

not blaming anybody I I was

01:30:43

fully into I did my own thing I made my

01:30:47

own decisions but I just remember

01:30:48

thinking at the time a [ __ ] that guy

01:30:50

hasn't had me and um and then then after

01:30:54

a little while I remember flim and I

01:30:56

must have got uneasy about it cuz we

01:30:58

just said oh let's let's get out of here

01:31:00

right and so but we got out of here by

01:31:03

stealing a joint so we and for later and

01:31:06

yeah and we're like so we went back and

01:31:08

so actually the and this is where I felt

01:31:10

really bad cuz you know we got we went

01:31:12

back hard the three of us had practiced

01:31:14

so hard we'd stuck together with the

01:31:16

young kids on the tour we'd been

01:31:18

actually doing really well and so we

01:31:20

went back and got hone and we like hey

01:31:21

honey you know we and so we got Hardy

01:31:25

involved and then you know that was it

01:31:28

and so then the party went on and didn't

01:31:30

think any of it next morning we all went

01:31:33

to this practice venue instead of

01:31:35

playing and it started raining so they

01:31:37

stopped the practice and they pulled us

01:31:38

all in and they said oh we're going to

01:31:41

have a meeting we're going to talk about

01:31:43

what happened yesterday and so can call

01:31:46

you in one by one so they went in his

01:31:47

room and they said oh Dion can you come

01:31:48

in so I came in and the coaches and

01:31:52

Captain and everything and I and they

01:31:54

said oh we've heard you a smoking pot

01:31:56

yesterday is this true and I was like

01:31:59

yep and then um they said ah we're you

01:32:02

know really diff really sorry to hear

01:32:04

that um you know so on on my way and um

01:32:09

so next person was walking in was flam

01:32:11

and as he walked past I said I FL this

01:32:14

what they're going to ask you and it's

01:32:16

all right I've said I've said yes I've

01:32:18

taken the ramp so just deny it you know

01:32:20

and he was like oh mate I can't do that

01:32:23

so he walked up in he said yes third

01:32:25

person was hardy hardy walked in he said

01:32:28

yes and by this stage we all got back or

01:32:31

I'd got back to the main group and told

01:32:33

them what was going on and of course

01:32:35

everyone was just like you stupid what

01:32:37

are you thinking you know you know so

01:32:40

and and then know everyone else just you

01:32:43

know just said and you know so we just

01:32:45

did they and I don't again it was a

01:32:48

terrible situation for anyone to be put

01:32:50

in right so I don't blame

01:32:52

anyone for for for for it because it

01:32:55

wasn't such it wasn't like many of them

01:32:59

probably felt they didn't weren't really

01:33:00

involved you know they probably felt

01:33:01

much like I initially did it was a bit

01:33:04

of peer pressure you had a couple of

01:33:05

Puffs on the way around was like I'm not

01:33:08

fing up for that you know um so you know

01:33:12

it was a bit of but then where it really

01:33:14

got ugly is when we flew home cuz they

01:33:16

sort of at the time they said okay we

01:33:18

know more were involved so end the story

01:33:21

and then we flew home and then at later

01:33:23

St uh New Zealand Cricket got wind of it

01:33:26

this about 6 weeks later and Alo the the

01:33:29

from a team environment they tried to

01:33:30

sort of keep a l on it yeah okay yeah

01:33:32

and then flew home and there a whole lot

01:33:35

of other politics going on in the

01:33:37

background which I won't bore people

01:33:38

yeah but we we used start done for

01:33:39

matches or did you get told off by the

01:33:41

senior leadership group or yeah we got

01:33:43

told off disappointed but but we're also

01:33:45

think but there were also people who we

01:33:47

knew that soan was like you guys are

01:33:50

idiots for owning up but yeah the

01:33:52

hypocrisy of it all so we're but you

01:33:54

know we were all sort of like in it

01:33:56

together so it was sort of was but also

01:33:58

that would feel like a good line in the

01:33:59

C not I'm not talking about it being a

01:34:01

cover up but a line in the sand like you

01:34:02

smoked a bit of pot at a [ __ ] party

01:34:05

big deal yeah yeah yeah and so we flew

01:34:07

home um and we were playing in uh uh the

01:34:11

Shell Cup Final and against I was

01:34:13

playing for Northern districts and we're

01:34:14

were playing um Wellington at the Basin

01:34:16

Reserve so this is pretty sure it the

01:34:19

Shell Cup Final and it was about to go

01:34:21

out it's about 9:30 in the morning we're

01:34:23

starting half an hour later or something

01:34:25

and the chairman of New Zealand Cricket

01:34:27

meets me in the tunnel and hands me a

01:34:29

letter and he goes you might want to get

01:34:31

a lawyer for this and I was like what

01:34:35

and he go and then Matthew Hart was in

01:34:37

the same game so he hands the same

01:34:38

letter to Hardy and we it's literally

01:34:42

I'm about to go and play pH and open

01:34:44

this letter and it's like um we've been

01:34:46

called to some court hearing that you've

01:34:50

been accused of smoking pot or tour of

01:34:52

South Africa representing New Zealand I

01:34:53

was just like all the blood drain out of

01:34:55

my body I was read sitting in the tunnel

01:34:57

just reading this thing before going out

01:34:59

into the sh up final and I was like oh

01:35:03

my God what is going on and you know you

01:35:05

my head was just spinning right I just

01:35:07

thought that's the end of my career you

01:35:10

know we played the game and I don't even

01:35:13

I can't even remember the game what

01:35:14

happened in it um but um it was remember

01:35:18

sh anyway so then we got went and got

01:35:20

lawyers had to lawyer up we all had to

01:35:22

go and meet in Oakland and and you know

01:35:24

cost thousands of dollars to go and

01:35:26

represent ourselves in the sort of

01:35:28

kangaroo court and was it out in the

01:35:29

public at this point or no no no but so

01:35:32

we sat in this meeting in this Kang

01:35:34

Court to about about midnight or even

01:35:36

later arguing our case right saying

01:35:39

because they they had a

01:35:41

judge was it like a Judicial some sort

01:35:44

of review but it was pre all of the

01:35:46

stuff there was no nothing set up so

01:35:48

they just set it up and so we had our

01:35:50

lawyers each had a lawyer each New

01:35:52

Zealand Cricket had HED museal on

01:35:54

Cricket and lawyers and there was a

01:35:56

judge adjudicating and we all had to

01:35:58

present our cases and you know in the in

01:36:01

the end they just said you're guilty we

01:36:03

know you're guilty so we're going to

01:36:04

suspend you and find you or whatever and

01:36:06

I was like so we just walked out and the

01:36:08

next day this is at midnight we walked

01:36:11

down the meeting next day it's all

01:36:12

through the papers so they must have

01:36:14

already told the papers what was

01:36:16

happening way before we left that

01:36:18

meeting and and I remember my but the

01:36:21

worst part of it all was when

01:36:24

was get having to ring my father but PRI

01:36:26

when I got that letter going home

01:36:28

afterwards and and then having to ring

01:36:31

my father from Oakland and say Dad uh

01:36:33

you know how well everything's been

01:36:35

going recently it's it's about to hit a

01:36:38

hit the skids um because of and so that

01:36:41

was one of those phone calls you don't

01:36:43

even really want to make but it like now

01:36:45

people go a smoking pop what what's a

01:36:47

big deal but literally that then we had

01:36:50

Paul homes turning up to our parents

01:36:53

houses you know like we everywhere you

01:36:58

went people were were either offering

01:37:00

your joints or or abusing you for being

01:37:03

a pothead you know or drug addict were

01:37:06

you as as and when you're fielding and

01:37:08

fans on the so so we' play the game was

01:37:12

was New Zealand Centenary so we turned

01:37:15

up to Eden Park or the team turned up to

01:37:16

Eden Park and there was just the whole

01:37:18

of Eden Park was filled with get off the

01:37:20

grass and and they used all the things

01:37:22

to make big joints and and you know it

01:37:23

was just you know people were rasar and

01:37:26

things everywhere but everywhere you

01:37:28

went out afterwards for about 2 years

01:37:30

you go to a pub and some guy would

01:37:32

always come up and go hey man you want

01:37:33

to come outside and and you're just like

01:37:37

dude are you kidding me um yeah I'm

01:37:40

guess I mean you can look back now again

01:37:43

it was almost 30 years ago so you can

01:37:44

laugh about it now but I'm guessing at

01:37:46

the time it was not funny for many many

01:37:48

years uh it wasn't funny he it was like

01:37:51

intense it was like it what it did do it

01:37:54

I think it brought Steven fim it's

01:37:56

interesting fim and I don't really have

01:37:58

much to do with each other anymore um

01:38:00

and but for a period I think it

01:38:03

galvanized a younger group that like

01:38:06

Flyn myself Chris Ken you know Nathan

01:38:09

Estel Edam pry a younger group that was

01:38:12

coming through I think felt really

01:38:15

galvanized by it and I think it was it

01:38:17

helped in a way because it was like hey

01:38:20

let's not let's be let's be honest with

01:38:23

each other going forward you know let's

01:38:25

let's sort of and let's not try let's

01:38:27

not do that again but let's like try and

01:38:29

get some get some things right yeah look

01:38:31

out for each other yeah and um and so I

01:38:33

think there was a good things came from

01:38:35

it um you know but there was also there

01:38:38

was a bit of scars there for sure you

01:38:40

know like it was just like cuz it you

01:38:43

don't you just want to be focusing on

01:38:45

that and you don't and you know you

01:38:46

don't want to even though a head smok

01:38:49

pot and even though you know you just

01:38:51

don't want to be called a po Poe head or

01:38:53

a pot smoker you know it's just you want

01:38:55

to be known for the thing that you're

01:38:56

good at you know um and so it was just

01:38:59

yeah a side so how was your um how was

01:39:02

your mental health at the time like

01:39:03

mental health wasn't even sort of a

01:39:05

thing it wasn't something we talked

01:39:07

about I watched the the Beckham

01:39:08

documentary yeah which I don't know have

01:39:10

you watched that I did yeah where

01:39:12

there's where there's people like like

01:39:14

burning and hanging effies of outside

01:39:16

bars like I'm not saying for a moment

01:39:19

ours was as intense as that but it was a

01:39:21

version of that you know like it was

01:39:23

full on we drove home my father made me

01:39:25

listen to the TalkBack radio as we drove

01:39:27

up north to go into hiding like

01:39:29

literally had to go into hiding for

01:39:31

about a week you know I just went hit

01:39:33

out on the back of the farm no ill

01:39:35

communicato and on the but my father had

01:39:38

been down at the hearing he just like

01:39:40

drove for two and a half hours all the

01:39:42

way up and he made me listen to talk

01:39:45

back radio the whole way and was sort of

01:39:47

like punishment for your exory and I'd

01:39:49

be turning it off and he'd turn it back

01:39:51

on and itd be like I was like and you

01:39:54

know you just had those the F honestly

01:39:56

You' think we killed people the way

01:39:57

people were carrying on a and of course

01:39:59

the radio hosts were like ramping it up

01:40:02

and I was just like man it felt intense

01:40:04

um but like it was just like one of

01:40:06

those things that you sort of

01:40:08

go really the one funny little story

01:40:12

that did happen is I had a middle sex

01:40:13

contract I'd already got that contract

01:40:15

but this happened in between so I I got

01:40:18

this letter with my work visa to go to

01:40:21

the to the UK to pick up my contract and

01:40:25

I was just hanging out to get to the end

01:40:26

of New Zealand summer to get out of the

01:40:28

country to go to that and they sent me a

01:40:30

work visa to so I could get into the UK

01:40:33

and on the front they rid in this thing

01:40:35

saying hey we've we've understood um

01:40:37

that this was that you got caught

01:40:39

smoking pot we of course we're

01:40:40

disappointed like New Zealand Cricket

01:40:41

but we do understand it was a oneoff

01:40:43

it's not part and so as long as it

01:40:45

doesn't happen here we're happy to have

01:40:47

you and and live up to our country cool

01:40:49

so I was like sweet so I turn up to

01:40:51

Heathrow and I walk in and the lady at

01:40:54

the counter is like um calls me up and I

01:40:57

go up and I hand over my work visa and

01:40:59

she's reading the front L and going she

01:41:03

go she pulls it off and she hands it

01:41:05

back to me she goes you might want to

01:41:07

hold on to this one and I was

01:41:10

like just I was like oh

01:41:15

[ __ ] I like yeah so she goes I hope it

01:41:18

was a good time or something as I walked

01:41:19

through and I was

01:41:21

like it's I mean

01:41:24

yeah I prol down plat too much because a

01:41:27

you wear away like representing your

01:41:29

country b um yeah pot we understand now

01:41:31

that it's not as harmful as what maybe

01:41:33

we thought it was back then but still it

01:41:35

feels like the um the lashing that you

01:41:37

guys took definitely outweighed it was

01:41:39

look yeah I mean I I I would I you know

01:41:44

I I can't I I I it was bad we we did

01:41:48

some dumb it was dumb but like you know

01:41:50

it also probably didn't deserve quite as

01:41:53

bit bigger hit as we took yeah there was

01:41:56

no social media at the time either right

01:41:58

like [ __ ] imagine that that's probably

01:42:00

good um was after your dad got the um

01:42:03

the initial like anger or whatever out

01:42:04

of his system was he um like quite sort

01:42:06

of empathetic or yeah he was they s come

01:42:09

around yeah he was good he came around

01:42:11

but you know it hung over me for it was

01:42:13

leverage you get for him for a little

01:42:15

while it wasn't short of playing the odd

01:42:17

little guilt trip on

01:42:19

me so so what you went through is

01:42:21

probably like the Australian guys with

01:42:23

the Sandpaper thing probably how they

01:42:26

feel oh yeah he only accused me of

01:42:27

letting the family down probably once

01:42:29

every month for about six months and

01:42:30

then you know went out to once every six

01:42:32

months for a couple of years you know

01:42:34

and and were you um were you seeing this

01:42:36

was pre bun say were you seeing anyone

01:42:38

at the time like did you or did you have

01:42:40

a good group of friends that you could

01:42:41

talk to about how you were feeling and

01:42:43

oh all all my mates were from University

01:42:45

so they thought they all thought it was

01:42:46

[ __ ] hilarious right because I was

01:42:48

like oh my God you know and of course I

01:42:50

outed all of them and then I always

01:42:52

remember the girl friend I had at the

01:42:54

time who she was great and um but she my

01:42:59

mother rang up to talk to her to try and

01:43:01

you know ease the get get another side

01:43:04

of the story and I always remember um

01:43:07

Shelly who was myri time saying um oh

01:43:10

look he hardly smokes any at all he's

01:43:13

probably only done it a handful of times

01:43:16

and I was like oh

01:43:20

no yeah I know you're trying to

01:43:26

like so yeah then it all kicked off

01:43:29

again was like Mom was like sh sh Shel

01:43:32

says yeah well it's just an an

01:43:35

unimaginable [ __ ] storm for anyone to go

01:43:37

through and um especially when there's

01:43:39

no sort of ending sight but has it made

01:43:41

you a stronger person built that

01:43:43

resilience do you think in a way yeah I

01:43:45

think so I think so uh I mean it's just

01:43:47

what you go through right um

01:43:50

I you know you you can't any other

01:43:53

experience it's just what it is your

01:43:56

experience and is builds your perception

01:43:58

of the world and your um Viewpoint and

01:44:01

you know mine will always have these

01:44:03

sort of things that I've that that

01:44:05

influence how I perceive things and and

01:44:08

you know I would be a liar if I said

01:44:09

they didn't have some negative impact on

01:44:11

that you know um maybe was slightly less

01:44:15

trusting after that you know s a little

01:44:17

bit sort of angry at people for for a

01:44:20

long time you know just felt quite a lot

01:44:22

of injust personal Injustice I always I

01:44:25

always had a sense of Injustice for

01:44:27

other people and I think but I always

01:44:29

felt you know like I didn't need any and

01:44:32

but I think after a while but when you

01:44:34

go through something like that it's like

01:44:36

that very intense sense of like that's

01:44:38

unfair on me you know that that and so I

01:44:40

think you go through all of those things

01:44:43

um but you just have to shake it off you

01:44:45

know and I think we all dealt with it

01:44:46

differently um uh you know but um no I

01:44:51

mean I I wouldn't

01:44:54

um I would like you can never do it but

01:44:57

part of I think when we set up helped

01:44:59

set up that Players Association was just

01:45:02

you know it was a recognition at the end

01:45:04

of my career when we were all trying to

01:45:07

work out that you need these support

01:45:09

structures around you know to prevent

01:45:10

things like that happening people need

01:45:12

mental support they need you know advice

01:45:16

they need physical support and advice

01:45:19

you know all of those things if they're

01:45:20

going to be successful on the part and

01:45:22

um you know I I would say there's still

01:45:24

some development to go there um in and

01:45:28

even today but um it's much B than it

01:45:30

was so yeah well there's no your duty of

01:45:33

care wasn't even a phrase back then was

01:45:35

it um how old are your kids now and did

01:45:38

did you did you bring this up with your

01:45:39

kids at any point or you just have they

01:45:41

read it online have they asked about it

01:45:43

there's no secrets they know at all um

01:45:45

no no they you know they I think they

01:45:48

think it's a little bit funny if I'm D

01:45:51

dad was cool once no they don't that

01:45:53

they definitely don't think that I think

01:45:55

they think it was funny stupid uh stupid

01:45:58

funny yeah I don't know definitely not

01:46:01

cool um but you know they're not but um

01:46:04

no they they're they're cool with it

01:46:06

they're like just you know just de yeah

01:46:09

they know what I'm like full stop you

01:46:11

know so they know The Good the Bad and

01:46:12

the Ugly so yeah oh that's cool well

01:46:14

let's um wrap the B the cricket stuff

01:46:16

with a couple of fun stuff I I found a

01:46:17

clip on YouTube of you um taking this

01:46:20

amazing catch catching the great Brian

01:46:22

Lara out

01:46:23

you're running backwards and you get

01:46:24

this catch um any stories about anyone

01:46:28

else any of the greats like wary yeah

01:46:31

what was your relationship like with

01:46:32

warie um I didn't have a great I didn't

01:46:35

play Australia in test match is a whole

01:46:37

bunch but I had a good relationship with

01:46:39

wary he was a just a jovial good guy you

01:46:42

know like super competitor best story I

01:46:45

can tell you about wary is I was playing

01:46:47

a game of cricket um in in Sydney under

01:46:51

lights one day in like say 96 1996

01:46:55

something like that and um uh he bowls

01:47:00

this ball called a flipper and it's like

01:47:01

this it was this mystery ball right and

01:47:03

it was big all this press and PR about

01:47:05

it right and anyway so old muggins here

01:47:09

Bing away and War comes in the bow and

01:47:11

he balls this B and I go to smack it out

01:47:13

of the park and I get clean bowled right

01:47:14

and it's like and he just like gives me

01:47:17

this big scend off and I walk off and

01:47:19

like you know there's this bit of

01:47:20

commentary of going oh what what on

01:47:22

Earth was Deon thinking you know and

01:47:24

then anyway so that's in

01:47:27

1996 2000 year 2000 maybe 2001 I'm

01:47:31

playing Australia in a test match at the

01:47:33

Brisbane and Shane War comes into bowl

01:47:36

and it's the first ball he balls comes

01:47:38

to bowl to me and he comes in you know

01:47:41

it's bright sunny day in Brisbane and he

01:47:43

gets about to bowl and he stops and he

01:47:45

leans down and he rubs his hand in the

01:47:48

dust and he looks at me and goes

01:47:50

remember Sydney nashy

01:47:53

and I was just like what I'm I'm like

01:47:56

some Joe nobody that you bowled out in

01:47:59

1996 in a one day in Sydney and you you

01:48:02

still remember it you know and he was

01:48:03

like he just making the point watch out

01:48:05

for my flipper it's coming and and I've

01:48:07

got you once ready and I was like man I

01:48:10

was it sort of actually had the opposite

01:48:12

effect it made me feel really good that

01:48:14

I even knew how I was you know it was

01:48:15

like it's great Shane one so um that's

01:48:18

neat yeah that is yeah but but that's

01:48:21

shows you the competitor he was right he

01:48:23

was into everybody he just wanted to he

01:48:24

wanted to knock you over he didn't feed

01:48:26

it anything so um but yeah I mean you

01:48:30

know I had always had great battles with

01:48:31

Ula like I got him out about six times I

01:48:34

was perori was the best keeper I would

01:48:37

only ever have Adam be my wi keeper but

01:48:39

he did drop um at a SAT and tender twice

01:48:43

so I should have had him eight times um

01:48:45

Adam denies it outright but I'm pretty

01:48:47

sure there's video evidence out there

01:48:49

that I can find if I work hard enough um

01:48:52

so but tnd do was he was the great him

01:48:55

and him and Lara were the two greats of

01:48:57

my time um and you know I I had a few

01:49:00

Runnings with Steve War and the war

01:49:02

Brothers um but I just loved playing in

01:49:05

the era you know it was just sort of one

01:49:07

of those times you had these big big

01:49:10

characters um you know Waker yunas Wy

01:49:12

mam you know kley Ambrose Ellen Donald

01:49:16

you know like there were just these

01:49:17

massive personas that you had to sort of

01:49:20

and I don't think you can quite

01:49:23

articulate what it's like to go out

01:49:25

against massive egos massive personas

01:49:28

and just to exist out in the middle

01:49:30

against those people you really have to

01:49:32

you know you have to sort of exude that

01:49:34

same sort of like um Persona you know

01:49:37

and fake it because you you know it's

01:49:38

not natural to have it but it's like

01:49:42

it's just being part of that is exciting

01:49:44

you know it was was a massive Challenge

01:49:46

and when you have those little bits of

01:49:48

success against it it's just amazing

01:49:52

yeah and I wanted to know about that

01:49:54

it's like um I mean I I suppose I speak

01:49:57

on behalf of like almost everyone that's

01:49:58

going to listen to this podcast that

01:50:00

will never achieve anything close to

01:50:02

Greatness in our life like what was it

01:50:05

like retiring at 30 is it terrifying do

01:50:07

you have like a post-career depression

01:50:09

like you go through these like extreme

01:50:11

highs that that none of us get to

01:50:13

experience and then suddenly it's like

01:50:15

your your new life is beginning yeah you

01:50:17

do you um you do it's like it it lasts

01:50:22

for for ages is way longer than it

01:50:23

should um you know like initially

01:50:25

there's a little bit of a high it's like

01:50:27

finally cuz I only retired cuz I was

01:50:29

having so many injuries and I was just

01:50:31

so tired of it you know emotionally I'd

01:50:33

drained I just the the the continual

01:50:36

getting injured and having all the media

01:50:38

say I is injured again and every family

01:50:41

member say oh why don't you just ring

01:50:43

bllr or you know why don't you just get

01:50:46

fitter everyone every friend no one

01:50:49

understands did you did you ever try

01:50:50

medicinal weed

01:50:53

no no there wasn't even a thing

01:50:56

then it was it was like yeah sorry

01:51:00

probably self-medicated a few times yeah

01:51:02

sorry breaking your flow there yeah no

01:51:04

but you know like so you get out of it

01:51:05

and you're like um uh you know you just

01:51:09

walk away and and think thank God that's

01:51:11

over but then the further you get away

01:51:13

from it the more you're like oh man I

01:51:16

didn't achieve as much as I should and

01:51:17

you have all this sort of regret and the

01:51:20

sort of a scar tissue from it you know

01:51:22

that builds up cuz it's like man I got

01:51:24

you know you feel certain times you're

01:51:26

mistreated or you know went you know

01:51:29

whatever and then that that lasts for a

01:51:32

long time and I guess why I'm so

01:51:34

grateful for having met those guys at 42

01:51:35

below and now for having my own business

01:51:37

is I just managed to stumble into

01:51:40

something where I had some another

01:51:42

creative outlet and I think C sport is

01:51:45

quite a creative Outlet you know I know

01:51:47

people don't necessarily associate jocks

01:51:49

and with with with creativity but they

01:51:51

sort of they are qu lined in a way um

01:51:54

and certainly from a passion perspective

01:51:57

you know that takes a lot of passion and

01:51:59

you deep dive into it and

01:52:01

so I think I feel really lucky to have

01:52:04

had that but man for years you know

01:52:07

because it's something you've done since

01:52:07

you're 12 it's what your whole identity

01:52:10

is wrapped around in is becoming a

01:52:11

crooker and then you do it until 30

01:52:14

that's the majority of your your adult

01:52:16

life or your entire adult life and the

01:52:18

majority of your entire life that your

01:52:21

identity has been wrapped up with

01:52:22

something so then you step out of that

01:52:24

and it's just like it's both frightening

01:52:26

and accelerating um it's like taking the

01:52:29

training wheels off and Away um you know

01:52:31

riding your bike and it's like man this

01:52:34

this is exciting but [ __ ] terrifying as

01:52:36

well yeah and how how do I work the

01:52:38

brakes um and and of course what happens

01:52:41

is every now and then you crash right

01:52:43

and when you crash you have those bad

01:52:44

times that's when you just long for oh

01:52:47

man I want the security of my identity

01:52:50

back but I think I worked out at some

01:52:52

stage in it that like I us like any

01:52:55

player that finishes I did commentary

01:52:57

for a while and even some TV work you

01:53:00

know and I just sort of felt that it was

01:53:02

really unhealthy for my psyche cuz it

01:53:04

was I felt like I was a becoming a

01:53:06

caricature of myself which was something

01:53:09

I was trying to shed shed away from you

01:53:12

know and so um I didn't want to go into

01:53:16

that I I wanted to move away from it and

01:53:18

so I sort of made this conscious

01:53:19

decision not to carry on with the the

01:53:22

the that side of it um and try to get

01:53:24

into something else and I I still think

01:53:27

that was a healthy decision even though

01:53:30

at times I you know you still sort of

01:53:32

you feel like oh maybe it be easy to go

01:53:34

back and Dabble and this sort of stuff

01:53:36

but I think certainly at that time for

01:53:39

me I needed to make that clean cut and

01:53:40

get away you know and try to carve out

01:53:43

something else do you enjoy reminising

01:53:45

from time to time like today or is it a

01:53:47

pain in the ass I enjoy it no I do I

01:53:50

enjoy tell I I I sometimes sometimes I'm

01:53:52

sick of my own voice you know like I and

01:53:55

so I I want to what I want is the next

01:53:59

adventure to be exciting and like I've

01:54:02

got this great adventure going on with

01:54:03

Bernie at the moment you know like we've

01:54:05

got this beautiful family we've been ber

01:54:09

and I have been married 20 years and it

01:54:11

doesn't even feel

01:54:12

like half quarter of that time you know

01:54:15

and I feel like um you know we're just

01:54:18

getting sort of like started in a way

01:54:21

and watching our kids grow and you know

01:54:25

trying to be a better human myself so

01:54:28

that they can so I can show them that I

01:54:31

can be evolve and change and you know as

01:54:34

as a challenge and I'm enjoying that you

01:54:37

know it's like I I'm totally committed

01:54:39

to that and [ __ ] it up often you know

01:54:43

like you know way too vocal on the

01:54:45

sideline at kids sports you know know

01:54:48

like are you actually are you not

01:54:50

conscious that people be like that's

01:54:51

[ __ ] qucious but that's it only

01:54:53

drives me on to sort of make it worse

01:54:55

you know I'm good at digging holes um so

01:54:59

but like um you know I'm quite good at

01:55:01

climbing out of them as well but um but

01:55:04

you know the the of that's that behavior

01:55:07

is like you know I my father never was

01:55:10

vocal on the sideline so you know as my

01:55:12

father's just passed away I'm like man I

01:55:15

I want to be like Dad you know I want to

01:55:17

just show that I

01:55:18

can be stoic on the sideline and and

01:55:21

enjoy

01:55:22

the wins or loses or whatever but but

01:55:25

it's hard man ockland sport kids sport

01:55:28

Inland is so competitive you know and

01:55:30

it's like it's full on um so there's all

01:55:34

of those things going on there's like

01:55:35

trying to run a business trying to make

01:55:36

sure that I put bread on the table

01:55:39

enjoying watching my Bernie's got a

01:55:41

great job and she's got her career going

01:55:43

so enjoying watching her she's a few

01:55:45

years after you know she was a sort of

01:55:48

stay-at home mom for a long time what's

01:55:49

what what is she doing she's she's um

01:55:51

she's I don't know if this is by Design

01:55:53

or but she doesn't do a lot of podcasts

01:55:55

and stuff or no she's so she's head of

01:55:58

people and marketing at um Hundai Group

01:56:01

which is um so it's a really big job

01:56:04

like great she's doing super well um and

01:56:08

loving it you know she's having her I

01:56:11

guess sort of corporate time which I I

01:56:14

had 10 years ago or whatever and um and

01:56:17

I think she's she's feeling she's

01:56:19

getting that success sense of sensation

01:56:21

of success so you know people we always

01:56:23

need little wins don't we you know to

01:56:25

keep ourselves bouncing along from lily

01:56:27

pad to Lily Pad and I feel like she's

01:56:30

having a really um good impact on the

01:56:32

people around her there and you can feel

01:56:35

it you know she's like anyone she's good

01:56:37

and bad days but that's exciting to

01:56:39

watch and and see that develop so I

01:56:41

don't know I'm just enjoying I'm trying

01:56:43

to it's I love the moment you can sit on

01:56:47

YouTube and sort of you know get all

01:56:49

this advice around how to you know live

01:56:52

Liv in the moment how to you know be

01:56:54

grateful you know be mindfulness I I

01:56:56

know it sounds cheesy and all of that

01:56:58

but I it's so wouldn't it have been

01:57:01

great to have that 25 years ago you know

01:57:03

and just you know like from what I know

01:57:06

about you you've been thee of the curve

01:57:07

though you would you were journaling

01:57:08

like at a young age like teenage years

01:57:12

yeah yeah well yeah mainly doodling

01:57:15

right initially and then and then and

01:57:18

then some pretty dodgy poetry you know I

01:57:20

remember remember had my own little Jim

01:57:22

marison pH at University where I thought

01:57:24

I was you know writing writing some

01:57:26

pretty wicked poetry anyway oh so yeah

01:57:30

so Benise for anyone that um that

01:57:32

doesn't know like Benise Minnie she was

01:57:33

that when you were in the New Zealand

01:57:34

cricket team she was like the the star

01:57:36

of the silver FS there was a McCain Z

01:57:39

that was on TV all the time where I'm

01:57:41

pretty sure it wasn't her dad but she

01:57:43

got a phone she was preparing like a TV

01:57:45

microwave dinner and the phone on The

01:57:47

Voice would be I just want to make sure

01:57:48

my girl's looking after herself

01:57:50

something like that she's a big star so

01:57:52

you guys met you ended up being at sobow

01:57:54

or something and you shouted her tequila

01:57:56

it was my birthday I'd been I'd come

01:57:58

home from India injured again so I was I

01:58:00

was my my my niece and my um my sister

01:58:05

would taken me out almost our 28th

01:58:07

birthday so I was like I was moping

01:58:09

around the house thinking a man and then

01:58:12

they said come on let's take you out so

01:58:14

I was having this big raging night with

01:58:15

my niece and my sister and I ran into a

01:58:18

friend and he owned a bar called a

01:58:20

restaurant called lemon ran into him at

01:58:23

at some bar and he goes dud come down

01:58:25

I'll shout you guys a dinner so he takes

01:58:27

us down to his

01:58:28

restaurant and I just walking and just

01:58:31

so happen the only table there is right

01:58:33

next to this group of netballers and so

01:58:36

I and they just lost the world Champs by

01:58:38

one goal against Australia and that was

01:58:39

sort of in the news and they having

01:58:41

their debrief I didn't know that but so

01:58:43

I was like oh this is awkward I'm going

01:58:45

to sit down I don't know any of them but

01:58:46

I'm going to sit down right the table

01:58:48

next to them so how do I navigate this

01:58:51

so I thought oh I'll just come by

01:58:52

rounded te killers and bring it back and

01:58:54

you know that'll break the ice they you

01:58:56

were a big star at the time though right

01:58:57

oh well I don't know well I was well

01:58:59

knowing I was in the New Zealand team

01:59:01

had been kept had been kep and so yeah

01:59:04

anyway so I brought this round Kil as I

01:59:06

took it over and Bernie always likes to

01:59:08

say she she said she thought oh that's

01:59:11

Dion Nash and then one of the other

01:59:13

girls said isn't that Dion Nash and then

01:59:15

one of the other ones said

01:59:18

who just a time stamp this pre

01:59:20

smartphone so you can't just Google and

01:59:22

go oh yeah that's oh that's cute so then

01:59:26

how did so how did you end up um yeah 20

01:59:29

years married from that well we just num

01:59:31

yeah no well no initially no I I checked

01:59:34

the number down by somehow and then um

01:59:37

you know it took a while you know there

01:59:39

was it didn't didn't all happen straight

01:59:40

away but eventually I managed to hook up

01:59:43

with a date with her when she was in

01:59:45

Oakland you know a month or two later I

01:59:47

can't remember and um I took her out for

01:59:50

a day night there's a quarry jump where

01:59:52

I was I was always into jumping off high

01:59:54

things into water so I did the polis

01:59:56

Bridge jump so I was always like right

01:59:58

let's find the next highest thing right

02:00:00

and so um there's this Quarry over in

02:00:03

tuna and lake puki and he used to be

02:00:05

able to jump I think you still probably

02:00:06

can if you but um us we used to go and

02:00:09

jump it's about I don't know eight or N9

02:00:11

M you know it's reasonable you got to

02:00:12

jump out over gors and it's a little bit

02:00:15

thrilling so anyway so I I my first date

02:00:17

I took her there and said hey let's go

02:00:19

jump into this Lake and she was like

02:00:22

okay so anyway so I got her in a bikini

02:00:25

on her first dat and got her jumping off

02:00:27

this high C I thought okay this girl's

02:00:29

all good I like her so oh that's cool

02:00:32

yeah so then um no so she she um yeah so

02:00:36

that was and then it sort of kicked off

02:00:38

from there but yeah amazing all these

02:00:41

yeah I suppose um I don't know yeah must

02:00:44

have been good meeting someone that's

02:00:46

sort of like a peer like uh that's

02:00:47

that's an equal so there's no sort of

02:00:49

power and balance like if if you're if

02:00:51

you're [ __ ] stress pregame or

02:00:53

whatever she sort of got some sort of

02:00:54

understanding of what it's like in high

02:00:56

performance sport um the highs and lows

02:00:58

of all that yeah and and she'd had her

02:01:01

own share of injuries and um she she she

02:01:04

was largely quite loved though not not

02:01:06

as quite as controversial I always felt

02:01:08

we've got this thing this um we got this

02:01:11

thing from the southern times cuz she

02:01:12

was playing for this thing at the time

02:01:13

and in Vago and it's the front page or

02:01:16

you know the flyer that they sell the

02:01:17

paper with so it goes out and it's the

02:01:19

you know it's just the headline and it

02:01:20

sits in the it's the Southland times and

02:01:23

it's like alberes is engaged and I was

02:01:26

like oh my God what we got taking on the

02:01:28

Hall of

02:01:31

Southland so yeah so um anyway so yeah

02:01:34

but that was a buzz you know they were

02:01:36

that was a cool time as well that whole

02:01:37

sting thing because Aden H was going out

02:01:40

with Jeff Wilson and um Tanya um Dalton

02:01:44

and Dwayne were down there so we all

02:01:46

these boyfriends would we were like the

02:01:48

Wags we would fly in from ockland and to

02:01:50

watch these sting games it would be like

02:01:52

sort of who's who in the crowd it was

02:01:54

quite funny that's neat and um so is she

02:01:58

taller than you yeah yes she is how how

02:02:01

was that how was that was that weird in

02:02:02

the beginning yeah for both you there

02:02:04

was definitely like a clean out of the

02:02:06

Shoe Closet that's all of those ones are

02:02:08

going AR they so um oh yeah well she's

02:02:11

she's 6'2 I'm I'm you know not quite 6'2

02:02:15

so it's it's close but no she's

02:02:17

definitely taller um and um oh yeah it

02:02:22

was you know it wasn't what I was

02:02:25

intending I'm sure it was to be the

02:02:27

short person in the relationship that's

02:02:28

for sure but yeah well I just think when

02:02:31

you meet she's such you know youve you

02:02:33

know Bernie she's just such a engaging

02:02:36

person and we just we're so compatible

02:02:39

we she just loves humans she loves

02:02:41

talking um and she brought out that in

02:02:44

me you know like I she she got me out of

02:02:46

my shell and you know and you know she

02:02:49

is she she's just a wonderful person to

02:02:52

be around and so you talk about creating

02:02:56

a positive environment around yourself

02:02:57

you know that was the the biggest tick I

02:03:00

could have made you know it was just

02:03:02

like wow this person's I just feel great

02:03:04

you know and wouldn't and like you say

02:03:07

she wouldn't she would she never D

02:03:09

dwells on things and she never dives off

02:03:11

into negativity or or or you know

02:03:14

feeling sorry for herself or anything

02:03:16

like that and so you you can't be like

02:03:18

that if you're around a person who who

02:03:20

like that you know no it's just you the

02:03:22

moment you start having any of that

02:03:24

behavior you're like oh my God I'm

02:03:26

letting this show down here you know I

02:03:28

got to get my [ __ ] together and get up

02:03:29

and play on the same terms you know so I

02:03:32

think um that's been a really positive

02:03:35

thing for me you know that's wonderful

02:03:38

and yeah so you've been together like 25

02:03:39

years now like a oh yeah late 9s 03

02:03:43

010203 so yeah so what's it 21 years

02:03:47

yeah so yeah so oh oh no sorry that's

02:03:49

marriage but yeah no yeah so

02:03:52

yeah no yeah pre the last Millennium

02:03:56

yeah have you um got I mean you don't

02:03:59

get that far in a relationship without

02:04:01

having any rough patches you have you

02:04:02

had any counseling or anything or are

02:04:04

you just naturally good at communicating

02:04:05

on your own and working through

02:04:07

obstacles when they come up ah she's

02:04:10

pretty straight man like it's like if if

02:04:13

I'm playing up or doing just you know

02:04:16

she'll just and vice versa to be honest

02:04:19

like no we we like anyone of course

02:04:22

there's you know rough patches of of

02:04:24

whatever you know but it's but no I mean

02:04:27

she's just got my back you know and I

02:04:28

think I've got his and not you know part

02:04:31

of all of the dope smoking and the you

02:04:34

know maybe the scar tissue of our

02:04:36

sporting careers um it's really

02:04:39

important to some feel like someone's

02:04:40

got you back and you're living up to

02:04:42

their expectations you know

02:04:44

and you did right you've used the scar

02:04:47

tissue thing a couple of times and I

02:04:48

think um whenever anything like this

02:04:50

happens you just you and this is quite

02:04:53

sad but your circle just gets smaller

02:04:54

and Tighter right yeah that's right yeah

02:04:57

yeah 100% And it's like and then you

02:04:59

build out a little bit I think now and

02:05:01

you know you start to build out a little

02:05:02

bit right and bring the other people

02:05:05

into it and change but um yeah no I mean

02:05:10

I we've traveled a lot I think that's a

02:05:13

cool thing to do as well we went to

02:05:14

South America when we first got together

02:05:17

for about 4 months um and we traveled

02:05:20

around went way up and into the middle

02:05:22

of the Amazon and you know people

02:05:24

couldn't even speak Spanish they were

02:05:26

speaking chiuan and you know we had all

02:05:28

these crazy experiences together which

02:05:29

was that sort of tested their metal you

02:05:32

know it was like it was like okay if we

02:05:35

got through that we can probably last at

02:05:37

least a couple of years of marriage yeah

02:05:39

yeah oh how could and how old are the

02:05:40

kids now 17 15 13 right yeah [ __ ] so you

02:05:44

guys are going to start being almost

02:05:45

like empty nests soon yeah so the oldest

02:05:48

one starting to look at universities

02:05:49

he's in his last year at school man it's

02:05:52

crazy how quick it it goes through and

02:05:54

um yeah but exciting as as well the best

02:05:58

thing we've done recently we we after Co

02:06:00

I had my 50th during Co and we' saved up

02:06:03

to have this big party and of course

02:06:05

couldn't have it so we're like well

02:06:07

let's go to Europe you know and take the

02:06:09

kids to Europe CU we had saved the saved

02:06:11

some money and so we planned this family

02:06:13

trip to Europe and wow what the the

02:06:16

perfect ages to take the family away and

02:06:19

just to have this family trip somewhere

02:06:22

when in the middle of summer in the

02:06:24

middle of Europe was that was the best

02:06:27

thing we've ever done you know it was

02:06:28

just like seeing your kids exposed to

02:06:31

other cultures and just their worlds

02:06:33

opening up you know and just somehow

02:06:35

took a lot of the pressure I think some

02:06:37

sometimes being from New Zealand there's

02:06:39

a lot of pressure in the smallness of

02:06:42

the place you know like because it feels

02:06:43

so competitive it feels like you if you

02:06:46

don't like you know whereas I think

02:06:48

seeing the world and just going man the

02:06:50

world's so bad

02:06:52

somehow I could my sense was it relieved

02:06:54

a lot of internal pressure certainly

02:06:57

from my oldest one I was just like wow

02:06:58

this is an adventure out here you know

02:07:00

there's so much to do and just seeing

02:07:03

whether it's real or not that was my

02:07:05

perception and seeing those little

02:07:07

growth things happen on your kids is

02:07:09

just enriching you know and you are you

02:07:12

proud of yourself as a

02:07:13

dead yeah of course yeah but I'm

02:07:16

also it's I Chris Ken and I we used to

02:07:20

Chris Ken and I weren't always mates you

02:07:21

know we some buttheads a lot and we came

02:07:24

up with the saying like years and years

02:07:26

ago which was and you know I think we're

02:07:30

having an argument here like you just

02:07:31

don't respect me and I said my retort to

02:07:34

Kenzie was respect is not something you

02:07:36

earn and keep it's something you keep

02:07:37

earning and it was like and he's never

02:07:40

let he's never let me forget it and I

02:07:43

and um but he loves that saying now it's

02:07:46

a great line I've never heard that it's

02:07:48

awesome yeah and he but he um you know

02:07:50

and it's it's sort of true but I didn't

02:07:53

even know what I was saying I was just

02:07:54

trying to win the argument with them I

02:07:56

think and um but uh but it's funny like

02:08:00

that that's true of being a parent you

02:08:01

know like it's like every time I do

02:08:04

something dumb or I do some silly thing

02:08:08

as a parent you know and or react badly

02:08:11

or just grumpy and angry when I should

02:08:13

have just been mow and cool um you know

02:08:16

I I have to rearn that bit I feel I have

02:08:18

to rearn that bit of respect you know

02:08:19

it's like [ __ ] I just blew it it's all

02:08:21

going so good you know because in in our

02:08:24

household growing up like in the 70s and

02:08:25

' 80s it was always um you do as I say

02:08:27

not as I do I feel like you can't get

02:08:29

away with it now you have to lead by

02:08:31

example totally totally Al so yes Kinsey

02:08:34

you guys are quite close right are you

02:08:36

quite good friends well we are I mean

02:08:38

you know but I think a lot was made cuz

02:08:41

he went through all that match fixing

02:08:42

and his problems and now he's obviously

02:08:44

got his health issues which he's doing

02:08:46

amazing to come back from um I me I I

02:08:49

love following him on Instagram has has

02:08:51

junor to teach himself to walk again

02:08:53

yeah incredible right it's the match

02:08:55

fixing stuff like whether it happened

02:08:56

whether it didn't happen it kind of puts

02:08:58

everything into perspective I think in a

02:09:00

way on the big scheme of Life yeah and I

02:09:02

think to be honest like chis Chris and I

02:09:04

by the end of our career we're good

02:09:05

mates um you know Adam was a good mate

02:09:07

we probably were you know you sort of

02:09:10

get a bit clicky in different groups and

02:09:12

we the three of us were probably good

02:09:14

mates every we had others as well that

02:09:16

as well but that was probably a bit of a

02:09:19

core I would say um and then so you know

02:09:23

you stand up for them but look I would

02:09:25

have stood up for Steven Fleming or

02:09:26

Nathan Estel or Roger TW or Jeff any of

02:09:30

those guys that we did stuff with during

02:09:31

that period they were like brothers

02:09:34

really and I still even though there's

02:09:37

through all of this sort of there has

02:09:39

been some separation but I still think

02:09:41

of all of those guys like that I have

02:09:43

ultimately all have their back and I

02:09:45

hope they would have mine um and you

02:09:48

know that's part of I hope when we get

02:09:50

together in this Union you know we can

02:09:52

sort of just be together again you know

02:09:56

um but um but yeah so but now keny's

02:10:00

Ken's doing great and you know it's it's

02:10:03

tough right like going back to leaving

02:10:05

the game is tough enough without having

02:10:07

to go through all of what he went

02:10:08

through and now having all his health

02:10:10

issues and personal issues and and stuff

02:10:13

so you know we all yeah we all need to

02:10:16

be there don't we for a m yeah 100% [ __ ]

02:10:19

this has been a hell of a cheat this

02:10:21

might um this might be the long you

02:10:23

didn't have any meetings up did you I'm

02:10:25

sorry this has been over two hours oh

02:10:26

[ __ ] sorry mate I I always remember John

02:10:29

Bridges you remember John Bridges from

02:10:31

TV3 yes yeah of course so I I went to a

02:10:34

function once and he um he uh is a

02:10:37

corporate function and he got up and he

02:10:39

spoke and he said he he was giving

02:10:40

advice to speakers and he said my the

02:10:42

first piece of advice is when someone

02:10:44

asks you to speak just say no and when

02:10:47

everyone's like what and he was like and

02:10:49

he goes whenever someone ask me to get

02:10:50

up here and speak I say no and then and

02:10:52

then it said if they come back and they

02:10:53

ask again I say still say no and then if

02:10:57

they come back a third time he said then

02:10:58

I think about what is is they want me to

02:11:00

say and if I'm really passionate and

02:11:02

I've got something to say then I might

02:11:04

say yes but I might also say no and and

02:11:07

he was basically saying like you know

02:11:09

just unless you've got something really

02:11:11

worthwhile saying just don't don't get

02:11:13

up there it's not not worth it and which

02:11:15

was a really it was a good message I got

02:11:18

it it was like yeah you got to have

02:11:19

something to say and so I I you know I I

02:11:24

do feel like I've got something to say

02:11:25

but then at the same time I'm like I'm

02:11:27

sick of the sound of my own voice so I I

02:11:29

did think as I was coming today this

02:11:31

might I might have to offer my

02:11:32

resignation to all podcasts after this

02:11:34

one this might I've reached the Pinnacle

02:11:36

I reached Mar's podcast I can now

02:11:39

officially retire yeah no more well well

02:11:42

if this is your last time on please cuz

02:11:44

it's um you do have a lot to say it's um

02:11:46

it's been a a hell of a life and I think

02:11:48

the exciting thing is there's someone

02:11:49

that's like the same age as you it's um

02:11:52

you know you get to I don't know when I

02:11:53

was in my early 20s I thought life was

02:11:55

over by the time you got to 50 yeah um

02:11:57

and then you get here and you realize oh

02:11:58

no you can still grow and still develop

02:12:00

and still change as a person and I think

02:12:01

that's that's really exciting you good

02:12:03

with aging I'm excited I'm actually

02:12:05

really excited I've got so much to

02:12:07

develop like I mean if imagine if it was

02:12:08

all done right it would be like so

02:12:10

boring um no I'm I'm sort of I'm really

02:12:13

excited I I definitely have some things

02:12:15

I need to work on and get better at and

02:12:17

I and I want to get better at you know

02:12:20

um I I did meet um I went on this course

02:12:24

once and this I was I was being

02:12:26

problematic within it this is only about

02:12:27

five or six years ago and I was

02:12:29

challenging the people presenting it you

02:12:31

know anyway and this lady comes up the

02:12:34

lady one of the presenters comes up to

02:12:35

me towards the end out a break and she

02:12:38

goes you know Dion with Mana comes great

02:12:41

responsibility and I was like

02:12:44

oh oh that was that one that one I have

02:12:48

to think about that for a minute but um

02:12:50

is that that from Transformers I don't

02:12:52

knower I don't know what it was from but

02:12:54

I was like it was like it was true it

02:12:56

was like she was basically accusing me

02:12:58

of throwing my way around without any

02:13:01

care you know and um and being SM being

02:13:05

smart enough to do it and but not allow

02:13:08

not respecting what the group needed or

02:13:10

whatever you know and I thought ah that

02:13:13

that was a good timely poking the ribs

02:13:16

you know and and so I think that's the

02:13:19

thing I'm probably trying to work on at

02:13:20

the moment is just being aware of the

02:13:23

impact that I can have good both

02:13:25

positively and and negatively and trying

02:13:28

to sort of like you know learn when

02:13:31

learn when I can need to just leave the

02:13:33

room and and go and regroup myself cuz

02:13:37

you know I'm I'm an oversharer as youve

02:13:40

probably just worked out and an over

02:13:42

talker and you know sometimes in doing

02:13:44

that you just actually needed to have

02:13:45

stopped half an hour ago probably like

02:13:47

this podcast and then um and then um

02:13:50

leave then everyone would be fine but

02:13:52

because you stay you over you over

02:13:54

analyze it you over talk it or you just

02:13:56

end up getting tired and saying the

02:13:58

wrong thing yeah well I think like from

02:14:00

my perspective I think this has been

02:14:01

great like there's nothing I'd eat it

02:14:03

out and I I appreciate you being so open

02:14:05

especially about the stuff and like the

02:14:07

'90s um yeah I heard a podcast just

02:14:10

recently that Arley Williams did with um

02:14:12

the between two beers guys oh yeah I've

02:14:14

been on their podcast I know you too and

02:14:16

he remember he got done buying some

02:14:17

cocaine and Paris Paris um and he said

02:14:20

when you you make the news people say

02:14:22

it's all it's tomorrow's fish and chip

02:14:23

rapper or whatever he goes and that's

02:14:25

true for everyone else but not the

02:14:26

person involved yes and I feel like

02:14:28

that's true for you um seems like it was

02:14:30

uh an ongoing thing for a while so I

02:14:32

appreciate you you know raking over

02:14:34

those old CTS yeah and and look I mean

02:14:37

as I say it's like everyone else that

02:14:40

everyone we touched on and that they

02:14:41

were on their own Journey you know so I

02:14:43

don't hold any of them I don't hold any

02:14:47

grudges that's one thing I genuinely

02:14:49

feel I don't have a single grud against

02:14:52

anyone I think anyone how they behaved

02:14:54

was always Justified all throughout you

02:14:56

know um so but it but it doesn't change

02:15:01

how what I went through so that you know

02:15:03

that that was a personal thing I they

02:15:05

didn't have to go that I I did so I yeah

02:15:08

I mean I don't know I I feel like uh

02:15:11

it's all it's all just part of the

02:15:13

journey right it's exciting

02:15:15

I I want to keep going on but I I

02:15:17

watched my father die just couple weeks

02:15:21

ago how old by the way

02:15:23

9094 one month short of 94 so 93 but um

02:15:27

never made it to 100 much like yourself

02:15:29

yeah that's

02:15:31

right yeah felt short um yeah should

02:15:34

have done more should have achieved more

02:15:36

um but um no but it was like one of

02:15:39

those things I I don't know you reflect

02:15:40

a lot and I don't think I've fully

02:15:43

processed it but I guess my what I would

02:15:46

say is like if you if you know have the

02:15:49

conversations you want to have with your

02:15:51

parents now because by the time you

02:15:53

realize you want to have them it's sort

02:15:55

of too late you know like a the aging

02:15:59

process does catch up with people you

02:16:01

know my father was and and what I think

02:16:04

happens is they dad was still had all

02:16:06

his faculties but you know not to the

02:16:10

point where you can have a philosophical

02:16:12

discussion and and by the time I wanted

02:16:14

or felt I could have that with with my

02:16:17

father I'd left I'd left it too long you

02:16:19

know and so I think having a better

02:16:23

relationship with your parents just does

02:16:26

can never start too soon you know and

02:16:28

demanding to have those conversations

02:16:30

soon it's hard though way because it s

02:16:32

from what from what I've learned about

02:16:33

your dad today like he was like just a

02:16:34

quite a stoic hard Northland farmer so

02:16:37

if you don't have that sort of

02:16:39

relationship not not necessarily a

02:16:41

friendship but that fatherson

02:16:42

relationship that a lot of other people

02:16:44

have it's hard to just sort of like

02:16:45

manufacture that yourself as an adult it

02:16:47

it's almost that that's it and I

02:16:49

couldn't man I couldn't manufacture and

02:16:51

in his own way it wasn't wouldn't have

02:16:53

been dad you know so he he didn't but

02:16:57

which is not to say Dad was pH

02:16:58

philosophical he had like it was just he

02:17:01

was a quiet stoic guy and he there was

02:17:05

you know there's that Unwritten thing of

02:17:07

like I don't I don't need to tell you

02:17:09

this cuz you already know it and of

02:17:11

course I did but it didn't mean I didn't

02:17:14

rally against him going [ __ ] tell me

02:17:16

it though you know but also also um yeah

02:17:21

I don't know what was said or what was

02:17:22

left unsaid but um you know he I'm sure

02:17:25

he must have been immensely proud that

02:17:27

he gave you the poem If yeah as a posted

02:17:30

to as a boy and that ended up becoming

02:17:32

the the name of your business like is

02:17:34

that something you discussed no no we

02:17:37

never did but You' You' when whenever

02:17:39

you've mentioned Triumph and disaster in

02:17:41

the root of the name of your company um

02:17:43

you've mentioned him and um I it was a

02:17:45

bege of Honor for him well like I don't

02:17:48

yeah that's what I sort of mean I think

02:17:50

it's like

02:17:52

we you know you wer a verbal family not

02:17:56

with my no not with my mother yes was

02:17:59

like but like Mom Mom was different kid

02:18:01

of fish but Dad was like the opposite

02:18:04

and it was like but I admire that in

02:18:06

them too you know like I can't that's

02:18:08

the thing I think we we get so wound up

02:18:10

in you know all these different things

02:18:13

and it's like sometimes a s you know you

02:18:16

can understand people through silence

02:18:17

right and just being with them and

02:18:19

understanding them right and it's like

02:18:21

we know more about people you know not

02:18:23

all communication is is verbal and and I

02:18:26

think that you know sometimes I I said I

02:18:29

did find sorry to carry on I'll I'll

02:18:31

shut up in a minute but no no I'm good

02:18:34

as long as you good well I did find this

02:18:36

thing I my the thing I said which I

02:18:39

really like at the moment is this um

02:18:41

intellectual honesty I said this on

02:18:42

another um podcast with the guys at

02:18:45

mandate actually who are awesome dudes

02:18:47

you should meet up with them they I've

02:18:49

been on their podcast

02:18:51

people and um anyway but like I found

02:18:54

myself talking about like intellectual

02:18:55

honesty and I was like I reog it's the

02:18:57

thing that that social media is really

02:18:59

taken away from us it's this ability to

02:19:01

make a statement and then hop out behind

02:19:03

a su so if I want to have a proper

02:19:06

conversation with you I've got to take

02:19:07

your opinion in the spirit that it's

02:19:10

given and within the context that it's

02:19:12

given and it's so easy to take out of

02:19:14

context one thing you've said inflame it

02:19:16

and twist it a little bit and Reay it

02:19:18

back to you and totally misrepresent

02:19:20

present you and what what does it

02:19:22

achieve it helps me win my point but it

02:19:25

doesn't help us win a a common goal of

02:19:28

understanding each other or or working

02:19:30

towards a solution on a topic you know

02:19:33

and I feel like that we need to fight

02:19:35

for that intellectual honesty in all of

02:19:37

our conversations that we can possibly

02:19:40

have because that's the way we're going

02:19:41

to move forward as a country as a people

02:19:44

as you know just generally but also I

02:19:48

think when you're really honest with

02:19:49

someone and you really listen it forces

02:19:51

you to listen and go and then you can

02:19:54

learn and I I think that's what I'm most

02:19:56

excited about trying to do is learn a

02:19:59

bit more like I feel like we get you

02:20:01

reach a landing and I feel like

02:20:04

sometimes you close down because I've

02:20:05

got got all this information that's got

02:20:06

me to this point I just need to

02:20:08

consolidate this now and that stops you

02:20:10

then bringing in more information

02:20:12

because you want to make the most of

02:20:14

where you're at and sometimes and I just

02:20:16

feel like I'm at the cusp of like going

02:20:17

actually you know what I actually need

02:20:19

more information and I want bring it in

02:20:21

and open up and change and evolve a bit

02:20:23

more and I'm open to that now you know

02:20:25

like the Stepping Stones all way some

02:20:27

people I think can keep it on an

02:20:29

escalator but I I tend to just have to

02:20:31

keep getting to Landings and control it

02:20:34

a bit more that's um yeah you've got a

02:20:36

growth mindset so I feel like you're

02:20:38

always going to be um trying to grow and

02:20:39

expand and get the best out of yourself

02:20:42

and I I suppose um yeah one of the great

02:20:44

lessons that maybe you got from your dad

02:20:45

is um how you parent your own kids

02:20:48

differently yeah yeah you know you learn

02:20:51

you learn stuff some stuff to do and

02:20:53

some stuff to do differently I suppose

02:20:55

that's the blessing in a way well I

02:20:56

think I also think the one thing I would

02:20:58

say kids are so smart they don't they

02:21:00

don't whatever whatever impact I think

02:21:04

what I'm having is just about it's the

02:21:07

reality of it is about 1% of that you

02:21:09

know so I'm far less important as like

02:21:11

than I've made myself out to be in like

02:21:14

they just or at least in the sense of

02:21:16

what my message is to them they just I

02:21:18

can see my oldest son looking at me and

02:21:19

going

02:21:21

you know

02:21:23

whatever and I'm not and I can sort of

02:21:25

almost see it see his mind thinking

02:21:27

going man I'm not going to be like that

02:21:30

but I'm going to you're over this side

02:21:33

um so yeah but no no but hey Willison

02:21:36

thank you for having me on here cuz I

02:21:37

I've enjoyed it I I feel like I watched

02:21:40

you I watched a bunch of them and you

02:21:42

know cuz I we watched a bunch of the

02:21:44

early ones and then you know you've been

02:21:46

so prolific that I I couldn't keep up

02:21:47

but when I thought I'd come on here

02:21:50

and I think what you're doing I was

02:21:52

really encouraged by watching it and

02:21:54

just going well you

02:21:56

are asking really smart relevant

02:21:59

questions and people are responding to

02:22:02

that and I think that's a skill right

02:22:04

and that's why you've been successful I

02:22:05

think you've like you I'm not just

02:22:07

blowing smoke it's like it feels like

02:22:10

it's a really important thing you know

02:22:12

to have conversations like this so I

02:22:14

just you know I hope you don't run out

02:22:16

of you know kiwis to do it you might

02:22:18

have to move overseas but like it's so

02:22:21

ening and I

02:22:22

watched I didn't watch them all the way

02:22:24

through but I every person I was like oh

02:22:27

man Z Gilford you know when I watched

02:22:29

that I was like wow you got Zack

02:22:31

Guilford to offer up some stuff you know

02:22:33

like I was like man this this is awesome

02:22:35

Matthew Ridge I was like he was that was

02:22:38

an awesome he got the Warriors bit wrong

02:22:40

you you I'd love you need to get him

02:22:42

back in cuz you it was two years ago and

02:22:44

it's just before all of the wi is kicked

02:22:46

off yeah yeah like we get get him back

02:22:49

in Edam peror your old mate like I

02:22:50

haven't watched it I've got to go and

02:22:52

watch some Mark Richardson I saw Mark

02:22:54

was great too yeah it's it's bloody it's

02:22:56

bloody great one thing I'm realizing is

02:22:58

that

02:22:59

everyone absolutely everyone is dealing

02:23:01

with some [ __ ] yes and everyone's going

02:23:03

through something and um I don't know

02:23:05

when you realize that it's quite it's

02:23:06

quite comforting in a way it makes makes

02:23:08

you feel less aligned with what you're

02:23:09

going through of course yeah and it's

02:23:11

just yeah yeah mate I I can't than you

02:23:14

enough for your time as you know been a

02:23:16

big fan of your work for a number of

02:23:17

years so it's finally it's good to find

02:23:19

I suppose you're one of those I've had

02:23:20

on the back bur like Dion's just around

02:23:22

the corner we'll get him on one day um

02:23:25

but you've been a great support and I'll

02:23:26

never forget that Triumph and disaster

02:23:28

was the you know the first brand to come

02:23:30

on board as a sponsor because um you

02:23:32

don't forget these little things no you

02:23:34

don't and but thanks it's been awesome

02:23:36

and I'm I'm stoked to see it all going

02:23:37

well so you know if we um I'm sure our

02:23:41

paths will cross again 100% now we near

02:23:44

doing a fragrance are you going back to

02:23:45

working on a fragrance now it's in the

02:23:47

pipeline actually so it's coming um uh

02:23:50

and that's I'm more nervous about this

02:23:53

than any of the other ones we've done

02:23:54

because it's like it's got to be right

02:23:56

you know so um you don't CU you know

02:24:01

this is what you personally wear it as

02:24:03

your signature so we've got we're

02:24:05

waiting on three more samples coming in

02:24:06

from Europe first round's done so was

02:24:09

probably a few iterations away but hope

02:24:12

hopefully we're getting pretty close

02:24:13

after this next set so awesome any um

02:24:16

any like sneak peek about what the scent

02:24:18

is or how do you describe drop when I've

02:24:21

got the next one I'll come down and you

02:24:22

can be part of the process how about

02:24:24

that you smoke some weed can you spray

02:24:26

someone

02:24:28

disguises it's a I think you can yeah

02:24:31

it's a cheap shot I'm sorry ad on N

02:24:34

thanks so much mate awesome good to see

02:24:36

you right

02:24:39

[Music]

02:24:50

oh

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

75
Most shocking
70
Most dramatic
70
Best overall
70
Most controversial

Episode Highlights

Memorable Nicknames
D recounts the evolution of his nickname from Woody to various derivatives, reflecting on his early cricket days.
“If I hear Woody called out, I know where that person’s from.”
@ 04m 35s
June 09, 2024
The Business Plan Revelation
A chance meeting leads to a pivotal business opportunity.
“I said, 'I’ve got a business plan.'”
@ 22m 29s
June 09, 2024
Healthy Competition
A rivalry that fueled greatness between two sports stars.
“It was such a healthy competition.”
@ 28m 50s
June 09, 2024
Emotional Toll of Business
Running a small business can be emotionally draining, especially during tough times like the pandemic.
“A lot of small businesses have been emotionally rung out.”
@ 42m 35s
June 09, 2024
The Pressure of Expectations
Growing up as the oldest son, he felt the weight of family expectations to work on the farm.
“Classic oldest son expected to work on the farm”
@ 56m 23s
June 09, 2024
Finding His Place
Transitioning to a new school, he felt determined to prove himself and embrace opportunities.
“I just went down really determined”
@ 01h 03m 56s
June 09, 2024
The Turning Point
After being dropped, a conversation with All Blacks players reignited his passion for cricket.
“That's how champions think.”
@ 01h 16m 01s
June 09, 2024
The Weed Smoking Incident
A controversial moment during a tour in South Africa led to significant consequences for him and teammates.
“It was a big nationwide incident at the time.”
@ 01h 27m 48s
June 09, 2024
Finding Strength in Adversity
Despite the challenges, the experience helped build resilience and honesty among teammates.
“It galvanized a younger group that felt really connected by it.”
@ 01h 38m 09s
June 09, 2024
Identity and Transition
Navigating the shift from a sports identity to a new life can be both thrilling and daunting.
“It's both frightening and exhilarating.”
@ 01h 52m 24s
June 09, 2024
Traveling with Family
A family trip to Europe opened up new perspectives for the kids and relieved internal pressures.
“Seeing the world relieved a lot of internal pressure.”
@ 02h 06m 52s
June 09, 2024
The Importance of Conversations
Having meaningful conversations with parents is crucial before it's too late.
“If you know, have the conversations you want to have with your parents now.”
@ 02h 15m 51s
June 09, 2024

Episode Quotes

I was always so competitive in a competitive environment that I have no control over.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!
Never be too safe.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!
I never felt physically threatened or you know I had a great upbringing.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!
I was one of the players of his generation in cricket.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!
It's both frightening and exhilarating.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!
You can still grow and still change as a person.
Dion Nash Reflects on Business Journey, Cricket Career, Cannabis Controversy & More!

Key Moments

Parenting Reflections11:09
Business Challenges41:01
Family Dynamics51:51
Family Expectations56:23
Peer Pressure1:33:04
Emotional Toll1:43:43
Identity Crisis1:52:24
Personal Growth2:11:58

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

Mark Richardson’s Surprising New Career - Feuds with Jacinda Ardern, Shane Warne & More!

February 18, 2024

01:05:22

Mark Richardson’s Surprising New Career - Feuds with Jacinda Ardern, Shane Warne & More!

NZ Cricketer turned Mountaineer, Adam Parore || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

March 19, 2023

01:27:41

NZ Cricketer turned Mountaineer, Adam Parore || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Christian Cullen’s BEST Jonah Lomu Stories, Beef with John Mitchell & Finding Purpose After Rugby

September 22, 2024

01:55:24

Christian Cullen’s BEST Jonah Lomu Stories, Beef with John Mitchell & Finding Purpose After Rugby

The Voice Of Rugby - Grant Nisbett On Commentating 350 Tests, Christian Cullen & Favourite Tests

March 16, 2025

01:44:55

The Voice Of Rugby - Grant Nisbett On Commentating 350 Tests, Christian Cullen & Favourite Tests

How Bernice Mene Became Kiwi Sporting Royalty

October 19, 2025

01:40:23

How Bernice Mene Became Kiwi Sporting Royalty

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

June 29, 2025

02:05:15

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

Former All White’s CRAZY Stories from Alcohol-Fuelled Career

October 22, 2025

01:55:46

Former All White’s CRAZY Stories from Alcohol-Fuelled Career

EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak

July 13, 2025

02:11:54

EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak

Alex Pledger Opens Up - Battle with Bowel Cancer, Basketball Legacy & NZ Breakers Dynasty

March 03, 2024

02:12:16

Alex Pledger Opens Up - Battle with Bowel Cancer, Basketball Legacy & NZ Breakers Dynasty

3 Hours of Beer & Banter with Justin Marshall - CRAZIEST Yarns from Iconic Rugby & Commentary Career

October 23, 2024

02:39:58

3 Hours of Beer & Banter with Justin Marshall - CRAZIEST Yarns from Iconic Rugby & Commentary Career

Underarm Bowling to the Rugby World Cup: Martin Snedden’s Incredible Life

December 07, 2025

02:17:46

Underarm Bowling to the Rugby World Cup: Martin Snedden’s Incredible Life

Jimmy Neesham on how to stay mentally fit || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 17, 2022

01:09:30

Jimmy Neesham on how to stay mentally fit || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey