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sh Henwood welcome to my podcast thank you very much for having me the pleasure is all mine retired
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detective Sergeant Dave Chuck Henwood um the winner of do you say winner of three
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silver mer merit awards yeah I guess so your award and what does that mean exactly for well it's a it's kind of the
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highest award you can get internally in the police really um so usually goes anywhere that but mainly
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in investigations I think but yeah a lot of people have got them and and you got
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them oh but not many people have three I wouldn't imagine only one other person
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and he was at the he was at the large last night with me who's that Peter mford Burgers right and what are these
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three for well the first one was for working in papur we had numerous homicides and u a lot of serious crime I
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got it for that in in 94 I think 96 was up Park and 98 was up Harvey you you say park and Harvey like the
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because I mean it's such a big part of your life most people would be like what's it what's he about we but we
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we'll get into that cuz it's been um hell of a career 47 years in the New
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Zealand Police yeah yeah a long time but I started at 17 so and you're um you're
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retired now and you just um play um you literally blow your own trumpet now yeah
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absolutely which I'm not very not very used to yeah 50 50 years out of that um
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while I was in the police and just to go back and it's amazing how you can pick
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it up again it's good yeah so you plant a brass band um you also tend to your
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rose gardens um yeah yeah I thought about that after the um after the the you the high octane career you've had do
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these um like Hobbies just sort of give you the you know the peace and Calamity that you sort of need at this stage in
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life yeah I think so I think I think you um you got to walk away in the end and it's why one of the reasons why I left
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South Oakland to retire went into Cambridge CU you know every street and every Corner's got story you know and I
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I didn't want to retire there so we're somewhere new yeah and you enjoying
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retirement loving it yeah loving it yeah um you can pick your own moments what does that mean well you can you can kind
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of do what you want to in any time you can sleep in you can get up you can go you can get up in the morning and say oh
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I'll drive to Tong or visit somebody or it's just the freedom that it that it
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gives you you know um after always being dictated to by some and why why a book so you got this um
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brand new book out called unmasking monsters how the hunt for New Zealand's worst criminals change placing forever
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um why a book now at this age and stage of life well it was all about timing and
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a way you know we all as police officers we often talk ah this got to be we got to write it write down write the stuff
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down you know it was funny and all the rest of it and serious and all all the bits and pieces and but um
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at the end of the day nobody ever has because a lot of his graveyard humor and you don't write a book about that I mean
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how far does that go so in n in 2019 I I had a bit of I had a b of the old um prostate cancer which is about as common
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as smashing grabs in Oakland these days so so you know we we have a coffee morning where um about 20 or so were
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there and one time and half of us we called ourselves the prostate Club because we that's how common it is you
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know so yeah I was domiciled at home and I I thought B with a with a bit of encouragement from My Wife and and some
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other people I I started writing it it was a different story it was going to be at that time and I was I was kind of
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writing for my family and uh and to try and get a message out to people what it's like to be inside Major inquiries
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and and how it engulfs you and and how you deal with it but and and then she a bit about
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behavioral of rapists and criminal profiling at the end and it's kind of um it was a Meandering kind of scrambled
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script for a long time was about 150,000 words when when I sent it to an editor Sue she she said well you're going to
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have to cut this in half mate you know so we did and a lot of stuff went out a lot of homicides and that so we we
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focused on just the the foundation that you have when you start to try and compare it with what the people were
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that we kind of dealt with at the end and what a different start we have in life and and how we go down different
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roads and then it kind of goes into operation Park and Behavioral Science and and criminal profiling and how that
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all developed yeah these these words that you're throwing around like operation Park and um Harvey before um
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these two and so many other cases um that you've been involved with like you've you've rubbed shoulders with like
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the most evil people that have ever like walked to New Zealand yeah some of the absolute worst
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like absolute bottom of the barrel pieces of [ __ ] yeah they you're know yeah you're did right I
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mean they're kind of um yeah the bottom of the bucket really aren't they yeah so
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this book you dedicated it to a woman who you never met Susan bdet why was that important to you well I think it if
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you you look at operation Harvey which was about a series of offenes by Malcolm Raya
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um we we failed to kind of get a conviction of of for her murder against malcol R and we all knew malcol R was
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responsible for it and it took a long long time and uh I I just felt found it necessary I I did also um dedicate it to
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the Legion of the um all the ladies that were involved and um and their Brave dealings in court in the process and but
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I just want to make extra mention of Susan bdet because she's not here and um
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her family are so yeah yeah that's one thing from um doing some research for
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this podcast that's uh yeah one thing I gather about you which comes through
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very strongly just your um the relationship that you have um with the victims that you've dealt with over the
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years um like Susan bdet who's dead and also victims that are living and um yeah
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some of them were even at your book launch last night I think that's worth acknowledging and mentioning yeah they
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were you know it's an interesting thought of connection to victims of rape because
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once the court case is over you deal with them a lot and and you want to make them you got to work with them to kind
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of help them through the the process which is you when a court set up for a defended isn't it I mean and rightfully
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so they got to make sure that he gets a fair trial but we kind of try and push the boundaries and and get as much if we
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can and help the victims through that process so you do get to know them well but at the end of it um
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you've got to kind of let go because some a lot of lot of victims of of rape
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want to move on and they don't want any more to do with it and whereas others um
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think that they've just been dumped you know at the end of the process because
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it's not for us to kind of to keep in contact with them but if they want to keep in contact with us and I and as you
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say there was four of them at of rers victims at the book launch last night and um we had a quite a long night and a
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lot of laughs well you bounc back all right this morning you seem okay well yeah
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yeah no it's fine yeah um a couple of other uh slow balls um you don't like
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the word cop no why what's wrong with cop well I I know the police department
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are now using it in the recruiting proc for goodness s i i kind of align it to when you turn up at at buddy at bws and
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scraps and and and and crime scenes is here are the filth here are the pigs here are the cops so I kind of put them
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all together and so I I don't like being and this phrase Top Cop I mean I I sick
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to death of that here and that you know um oh like like a lack of respect sort of thing I think so yeah do people
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like you remember like um pegs like in the 70s and ' 80s it was a massive massive slur against the police do
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people still say that I don't know police I imagine they've got some new
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names now but equ equally well interestingly I've got a I've got a t-shirt at home
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with a great big pig on the front of it which I I quite often wander around but yeah so I kind of laugh now at that but
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I you know the filth and stuff like that I mean I just think you know why why should we take it on they can use it if
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they want to um but I don't I don't go with it yeah yeah and you you um you spent your entire career
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in South Oakland yeah I did yeah what's the um what are the main like obvious
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differences between now and then well I don't know 100% what it's like now
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because I'm not been there but certainly they they walk a um I feel for them now
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I mean when we started in in 1970s early 70s was um I think the public opinion and and support was pretty strong and um
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and it wasn't a um there is a a a kind of out outcry of kind of anti kind of police stuff going
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on in the in the world these days and um not just here but uh you know and they wouldn't they wouldn't think before the
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spring B to you wouldn't think of a crowd turning up throwing bricks at the police I mean that was 1981 was a bit of
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a changer wasn't it and uh um yeah so but it's also that what the police have
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got to do today they they're still underst staffed as we always have been you know but they're getting away from
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it you always got to fight for that little piece of the pie whatever you're doing and a SP pie at that so um but the
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today um they've got all these other little duties and it's not was quite
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simple in a way back in the early 7s we were there to catch criminals um we weren't even Amalgamated
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with the transport at that stay so was so Ministry of Transport I'm old enough
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to remember that yeah right 93 or something I think um but but uh but yeah so it was quite a simplistic thing you
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know you okay you dealt with fatal motor accidents and deaths and and things like
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that but um catching criminals was the kind of Pinnacle of what we were there about I don't think it is anymore I
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don't even know if it's in the in the front room anymore there's all these
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other social issues that are going on and we've been kind of dragged into other duties that perhaps weren't
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initially ours and we've still got we've even got a thinner police to and now
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than we had before so I don't know how they get on and also of course it's it's
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it's a lot more open and and and everybody's got a camera for everything
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that happens and yeah so it's a it's a tough tough beat to walk now I think
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than it was when we started yeah yeah I probably agree with that sort of a lack I don't know lack of respect or a
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certain amount of entitlement for I don't know um I've heard you describe
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yourself as an old school copper does that sort of like to him with the last answer yeah I guess it does and
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I because of what what what I believe our duty is duties to to victims and and crime um that's what I thought anyway
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and why I stayed in CIB for as long as I did yeah and um yeah so your your default now from
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where you are now like after spending your entire uh life and service with the New Zealand place and now you're retired
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is your um default to see the good in people or to think the worst of people oh know I think um that's one of the
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reasons why state in South Oakland because um we always hear the bad side of everything and uh if you actually
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stay somewhere long enough and and get to um talk to people and communicate which is face it the most important part
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of a policeman's um job really is to communicate with with everybody all different types of people you you
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actually see the good side of things when you there's a hell of a lot of good
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people out there and and in South Oakland as well like anywhere suppose but they're there um and they're trying
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to exist and it's getting harder and out for them um and I it kind of because we
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deal with I used to live in in South o as well you know there's some police officers kind of tend to kind of live
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somewhere else and and come in and you you surround yourself with these people trying to exist in in a in you know in a
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struggle and especially in plac like otar and mangar you see these good families with the the the mother with
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two jobs the father with two jobs struggling to even make meet and right next door there's a gangster
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selling drugs driving around in a Harley Davis and and you imagine the two families kids growing up next to each
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other yeah where as a young person are you going to be drawn you know so it's a
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hard hard C so there's a lot of good people out there corers yeah and I and you deal with them all too yeah it be
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hard hard to um remain glass half full though wouldn't it I guess after a while
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yeah be very easy to become cynical yeah well absolutely but I think you also um
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you you kind of feel that you you're um it makes you more complete when you when you kind of try to to understand
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what's going on see what I what I I think I mentioned in the book about the old days when we used to I say old days
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70s and 80s um we used to interview these these suspects and an interview we talked to them for hours have a smoke
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with them I didn't smoke but anyway drink and drink of water and bu and just
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yarn and just build that little we Bridge just such a little thing just just so that we all know that we we're
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not that buy different really we've just gone down a different Road and they
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started in a in a shocking environment and I didn't um and it's as simple as
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that really and uh we're not that Bloody different and I and I think there's a
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little Bridge there it's all gone now because it's all clinical Our lives our
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lives are clinical you know we don't laugh enough all right let's move into another
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chapter um in the mid90s so first of all uh I remember this clearly um but a lot
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a lot of people of a certain age won't even know the name but who is Joseph Thompson yeah well back in was February
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93 he turned up in my patch in manua um and it was followed by a number of rapes
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stranger and TR rapes in Mana we we weren't getting a handle on it at all he
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was he kept offending didn't know where he came from um but we knew it was one
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guy and I I I went up and I I had to kind of work out where I thought he came from because there was no indication
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that he had kind of grown up in Manu and he was just kind of um moving up the ladder To Be A Serial Opus he must have
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come from somewhere else and and I went up to odaho and pulled out a whole lot of files from otar and Odo in the late
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80s and early 90s and I took them home and read them and it was quite clear that this was the same guy this is where
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he' come from so he' been going for ages for years and uh so yeah so we started
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operation Park to to find find this guy and we after about a year and a bit um we hadn't found them and these rapes
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kept going on you know we were going getting under bit pressure here and um and rightfully so um but um then Johnny
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Manning who was now in charge of operation Park set by about after about 18 months I suppose um
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he decided that we're never going to catch this guy the way with conventional
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policing what we're doing so he he had read a little bit and had a little bit
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of um insight into criminal profiling so um that's the direction he took the
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whole inquiry was a big move for him he just stepped out if he'd got it wrong or
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we hadn't caught Malcolm re we probably would have been put under a rock but um yes
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criminal profiling like anyone that's um watched an episode of CSI would have
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heard the phrase before but this was like brand new yeah like a brand new sort of system or technology in the
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mid90s eh yeah absolutely no what does that mean exactly well criminal profiling is it comes from
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behavioral analysis of a rape scene first and I think if anybody reads books like mind Hunter and that from the the
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FBI and America from John Douglas get a better idea of it but behavioral analysis you analyze the crime scene and
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your your victims and everything and you you can you can identify a personal kind
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of um behavior of an offender and from that you draw a a picture of the offender so then you um you say right
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how can we find this person from that description of that that we know for sure about this guy or we believe that
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this guy is so um we we struggled with that um and then uh we got on board a um a computer analyst who was really good
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Frankie vanderswag and he he managed we managed to get all the information we could off the wo computer because what
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we were looking for was that person in the past as opposed to now because now we couldn't find him but he can't change
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what he's been and from the lists that we gathered from war computer from those behaviors and that
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kind of description we had um we were able to sift out Joe Thompson yeah there's even a book written at the time
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by Jen corett called um caught by his past yep absolutely beautiful title yeah absolutely perfect um I mean it's hard
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to imagine now like 29 29 years on um you not being familiar with things like criminal profiling and DNA but this was
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in the very early stages of all that wasn't it and DNA as well yeah absolutely um I think DNA was used the
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first time in about 85 or something other in in the UK me and um and it had had been used a couple of
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times in New Zealand as well um before parked but you know it was fairly early days and we had to have a um a large s
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um to get a result back then now don't anything like one hair sort of thing amazing so um July 15 1995 take us back
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to that Day 1995 when we spoke to Joe yeah so the the the really early start so the night the night before like do
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you do you sleep do you sleep at all or like Are you full of anxiety and so you'd known he was the guy for a couple
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of weeks and You' had people a month so been people chasing him just to make
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sure there was not going to be another rape that happened AB once you knew who the guy was um but yeah you and um John
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Manning you the guys have to knock on the knock on the door and there's like
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50 cops all around the area like the the the night before like this is a potentially the biggest day of your
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career to that point like do you do you sleep before do you eat what what you working through your mind the different
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scenarios of what's going to happen oh absolutely you're thinking about it um
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but you try and sleep yeah I I don't think I had too much trouble sleeping I've never have had um so um yeah so we
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it wasn't Johnny man it was Brett Simpson that I went to the door with and um because he was OC suspects for Park
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so they get the job of interviewing and I was there because I had done all the work on behav I knew the scenes and the
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victims so yeah so we knock on the door we we um yeah you think about it the drive there particularly you're thinking
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right what are we going to receive how how's this going to go down and and you
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think of all the different um potentially how it's going to work and all the different ways we can we can
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work with it and uh yeah it went pretty well amazingly well really he just opened the door not just to to us but to
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his whole life you know that's what it was and it went from there we interviewed him for 20 OD hours I think
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and he just clear the clearest chest of all all that he had done amazing interview really it was um not not from
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as it was just to be there and listen to it all yeah so that interview situation like um
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you all um most of us have got to go on is what we see on TV shows is is it is it a good C good cop bad cop thing
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certainly not with J because you know he made it quite clear he was going to going to tell us all you know so we
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just sat him down and without any leading questions you just let him go and just went from scene to scene to
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Scene It was no nothing no good cop bad cop and um um not I'm not saying that
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that never happens but certainly wasn't going to happen on this occasion so so yeah 20 hours of
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interviews you had with this guy like the the worst rapist imaginable in New Zealand history um do you sort of you
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sort of bond with them oh yeah I I think you're sitting in a room with them for
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that long you do get a kind of a feel that was a connection um for sure but let's face when you come out of the
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interview room and you and you a few days later and you and you remember all the victims and you think yes evil
00:22:00
you're you're really just kind of there acting the part I think then you realize
00:22:05
that you haven't really got a connection with this guy at all um it's kind of
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yeah acting in a way isn't it I suppose went him over yeah absolutely so so and
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he he he had a history of getting on with authority you know at the boy homes they they they called him bonus Thompson
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so um he he'd get on with anything in Authority um he he need needed he wanted
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to be um kind of uh have some sort of control over him CU he couldn't control
00:22:36
himself so yeah he found boys homes and later on Prison not such a bad place really yeah so so yeah in those 20 hours
00:22:47
of interviews is is it all um just sort of structured or is there small talk and
00:22:52
banter and some jokes not on that one really um because it just it just kept rolling we couldn't afford to spend too
00:23:00
much time like like we used to with with some people U it's really um we just
00:23:06
kicked off and uh went from crime to crime and he had explained what he did and he had amazing memory of each
00:23:12
offense because of course they they go over it in their own mind and they they relive the moment so to speak so he
00:23:20
remembered all these scenes with Incredible memory that he had for he knew exactly where the house was what he
00:23:27
did what the victim looked like um and how he got into the house that kind of thing so yeah um yeah just went for
00:23:35
because we had a big list of off course he started admitting to things that we didn't even know about hadn't even been
00:23:40
reported to us so I had a list of about 40 that I believed he was responsible for it ended up it was only one of that
00:23:49
that he that he wasn't too sure about in the end so it was dropped but um he he
00:23:54
admitted a whole lot of others so I think and he pleaded guilty straight away um Jo say it was kind of a bit of
00:24:00
anticlimax in a way but we we there was some some crimes that we was never charged with that he admitted to because
00:24:07
we couldn't get couldn't get it together quick enough for his sentencing you know
00:24:11
so he only got charged I think with 50 attacks but there were more and um is he eligible for parole
00:24:18
he's still incarcerated isn't he it's 29 years well he's definitely still in
00:24:21
custody he he was eligible for parole after 25 years which is um gone uh he's
00:24:28
still in there um something to the patrol board decide whether he's going to ever get out again but uh what are
00:24:33
your thoughts on that well I think if you look at the last line of um the psychologist report on on Joe and it's U
00:24:41
um murder was the uh killing his victims was where he was heading according to the psychologist will rboard hear that
00:24:48
they might have have to think twice about whether they want to let him out and going along with the fact that he
00:24:53
couldn't stop himself he admitted that himself he I could I couldn't stop I
00:24:57
couldn't let anybody get in my way so um yeah being in prison um for all those years has that changed him and if
00:25:05
you put him back out in a place where he's already been already shown what he
00:25:09
what he's capable of I don't know um you know they say that um a person who is in
00:25:16
a in a position where he can't steal um do that mean he's not a thief um don't
00:25:25
know and um and what about his wife so yeah you're not knock on the door and he
00:25:29
says something like I've been I've been waiting for you guys and then he grabs
00:25:32
his shoes and his jacket and he he goes with you and his wife she's got she's
00:25:36
got no idea she thinks he's being taken away for a ched about drugs or something
00:25:41
I can't remember whe whether she was actually even there I don't remember um
00:25:45
she was certainly interviewed by another um detective so we were only concentrating totally I never saw her so
00:25:52
I don't know even know she to this day whether she was in the house or where
00:25:55
she was well I can't remember anyway but we were concentrating on Joe really so
00:26:01
yeah I didn't see her um she didn't know though she I mean which it does seem
00:26:07
alarming though your husband's disappearing for a few hours in the middle of the night every few weeks it's
00:26:13
but but but people live in this Twilight Zone or thousands of of men in this kind
00:26:19
of position because I went on to to crime watch numerous times to try and um say well somebody must notice their
00:26:27
husband brother father or whatever coming back wet through from on the nights of these particular rapes because
00:26:34
there was quite a few of them um somebody must know but never never came up anywhere because there's so many men
00:26:42
who live in kind of in an environment where they come and go willy-nilly and it's just kind of the norm sometimes
00:26:49
they don't come home at all and you know so you unbelievable how many people are
00:26:54
like that Jes the these sort of things like from a personal perspective like what
00:27:00
sort of what sort of toll does it take on on on your mental health and stuff so you know you you deal with something
00:27:05
like this then you go home at the end of the day like how are you able to switch
00:27:08
off or compartmentalize yeah I think well you have to um I think you it's the other
00:27:15
way around I think you just when you get up in the morning you put your armor on
00:27:19
and go back um I don't know where you take your armor off whether it's D when
00:27:23
you're driving home or what but what it what it does do is it makes one of the
00:27:29
downsides I think is you're dealing with such shocking things shocking crimes and
00:27:35
that you that when you get home and and the wife's got a a problem with one of
00:27:39
the kids that seem in comparison absolutely nothing but to them is massive you know and and you kind of sit
00:27:47
there oh yeah but uh that that's the one thing that I used to always kind of I
00:27:52
used to wonder about rather than anything else you know yeah it's it's a lot to it's a big
00:27:59
burden isn't it it's a lot to carry around and I I wonder how you can even
00:28:02
like when you're in the the throws of this like say when the investigation's
00:28:05
going on and Joseph Thompson's still out there like how you get home and switch
00:28:10
off how you be present with your kids and and your wife and what they're going
00:28:14
on like this I don't know I'm prob maybe I'm just projecting here but if it was
00:28:18
me I think i' would just always be weing over in the back of my mind well yeah it
00:28:23
is a bit 24/7 um but you I don't know how how we cap really but I I mean it was not just me it was a whole team of
00:28:30
people we talking about and um I guess we all deal with it differently but um I I used to go on the way home I'd be
00:28:39
thinking about it on the way to work I'd be thinking about it and as I said I
00:28:42
took files home at time which I'm not meant to have but I did and um so yeah
00:28:48
really um but I was always there for the kids and I I don't remember ever um
00:28:54
missing any sporting events or anything you know I got six children so we we we didn't have mobile phones in those days
00:28:59
so you had to kind of or organize yourself in the morning when you leave so yeah just concentrate on that I it
00:29:06
didn't kind of I don't think it impacted me much but maybe it did maybe after
00:29:11
need need to ask that question to some of my children who now growing up and uh we're
00:29:16
all at the launch last night and uh I think they're a pretty all well-rounded
00:29:20
wom and MOB to be honest they bloody great kids yeah you you got a big family Ace is it six kids yeah and 15 15
00:29:27
grandkids 15 and a half 15 and a half sorry I forgot the half and two and two grand great grand great yeah amazing
00:29:35
yeah it's um yeah pretty big um yeah your um your wife must have done a lot lot of the heavy lifting
00:29:42
though just just because you even though you're as present is what you can it's
00:29:45
like such a busy and important job you had yeah I think one of the things I done was back then um the wife didn't
00:29:52
work nowadays they have to so I don't know how it would work today um so she
00:29:58
was concentrating on the children and I kind of going and coming and I get called out all hours of the day and
00:30:03
night so um but you couldn't do that today could you really I I don't think
00:30:09
um so yeah so that was important and she you know she was a good mother yeah and
00:30:16
um just before we move on from um Joseph Thompson I just wonder about the um the
00:30:20
like the high-profile offenders that you um dealt with are you given the relationship you've got with them and
00:30:27
you the hours spending them in interview rooms and stuff are you are you able to
00:30:31
have anything other than lothing for these people depends on the crime at the end
00:30:36
of the day you can't go in there with that loathing feeling because you're
00:30:40
you're not going to communicate very well are you so you go and um try and be
00:30:45
um kind of as impartial as you can and just kind of communicate that's you know
00:30:52
I think it's one of the things that's kind of lost in recent years kind of the
00:30:57
ability to communicate with people no matter where where they are in the scale of things I I've never really had an
00:31:03
issue talking to anybody um whatever their background where wherever they come into it you know whether the the
00:31:12
bottom of the bucket criminal to the to a to a crown solicitor you know that it doesn't make any difference to me but uh
00:31:20
you got to be able to communicate to all of them so I you know I I'm not too sure
00:31:26
about um how I how I managed them and talk to them all but I mean there was some
00:31:33
criminals that you uh you can deal with with a lot of humor back in the day um particularly burglars and that around
00:31:42
town and when I was a young detective or uniform police officer we you know we we' kind of be having a laugh when we
00:31:50
going down the cell block them to fingerprint them you know to be honest and um they're quite Charming like
00:31:55
they're saying a likable Rogue yeah and well there's a chapter in there about
00:31:59
Dan and um Dan Dudson the burglar and I don't know if you're going to get into
00:32:03
that or not but uh you know a great character I mean a national criminal I mean this guy got a heck of a history
00:32:10
and uh heck of a lot of burglaries behind him they're still digging up his some of his jewelry and and stuff around
00:32:17
the country today so um but but a Buri Crump is kind of humor you know and he used to write
00:32:24
it but and that was one of the reasons why I wrote the I was going to write the book with him you know um because he had
00:32:30
this style and uh and I I used to I don't know if you know Phil Taylor is a journalist around town here and uh and
00:32:37
Phil and I and and Dan used to sit around and chat and Phil's a lefty Dan's a criminal and I come from a
00:32:45
fairly conservative kind of background we can sit around there and laugh and and talk and and communicate you know
00:32:51
it's just it was good and and Dan was a I'd call him a mate really at the end
00:32:57
you know and he and he did he gave you his word and he'd stick with it he said
00:33:03
all I've got left is my word and he doesn't matter whether he gave it to me
00:33:08
or to another criminal he was never an informant never told me about anything that was going on I knew he knew
00:33:14
about but um but because he had given his word to them yeah all right so let's
00:33:20
um talk about Malcolm rayin out so mola his um one of one of his many victims um
00:33:25
Susan um bad is who you um dedicated the book to even though you never got to to
00:33:31
meet her um who is Malcolm Raya well yeah how do we run into Malcolm R well just after the end of
00:33:39
Park and Joe Thompson was dealt with there was a series of rapes in Oakland and uh called operation Atlas and they
00:33:49
asked me to go in there and get and have a look at it and try to work out which offenses were committed by one person
00:33:54
because I knew some of them must have been so I did that and at the end of putting about five or six of them
00:34:01
together I um I asked there was another operation called operation Harvey that was started at uh back at manaca where
00:34:09
we just finished operation Park took over the same building so it was it was following the same line as operation
00:34:16
Park criminal profiling you know the big blooding lists like we did with Park and
00:34:23
um I knew something about the operation park for victims and and their stories because I was putting operation Park F
00:34:33
bed and it took me a couple of months because it was a massive thing and I was in the same building so I knew a little
00:34:38
bit about what's going on and I after looking at these um connecting these victims for operation atas I I asked for
00:34:45
permission to go and have a look at the Harvey on in depth and it was clearly the same guy so then I had to um I think
00:34:54
I pretty much convinced everybody was pretty much on board but they they wanted a forensic link first before they
00:35:00
were going to um connect the two operations in the meantime I I wanted to connect them chronologically and and
00:35:08
geographically to the to the one of there must be other rapes out there you don't just stop in 93 with the end of
00:35:13
Harvey and then start in um in ' 95 in Oakland so we I looked at all the rapes
00:35:19
I could and sure enough he was a whole lot of others that were around scattered all around Oakland and uh and they they
00:35:26
connected the rapes series T Harvey and and then we got the link the forensic link to Atlas and Harvey so we're all on
00:35:34
board and um and then we had a bad rape in in um New Market really I think they called it epom UB New Market border
00:35:44
there somewhere and uh it had a connection to Malcolm rowa and there was a old file that was left over from Park
00:35:52
that also had a reference to Malcolm rowa and uh that was the link so we did a um uh he we couldn't find him um and
00:36:05
he uh we did a uh did got blood from his family and uh Familia linked him to to Malcolm
00:36:16
rowa and that was enough so we took him out and in mangry so this was by this stage it was mid 96 it was just about a
00:36:26
year after we looked up after Joe Thompson was locked up so it was about 11 months later we locked up Malcolm
00:36:32
rway it was a a different lock up all together from Joe Thompson we knew it was going to be because Malcolm River's
00:36:39
history told us that um he was a uh he hated hated Authority and the police to the Bone and
00:36:47
um uh and that's how it turned out right so not compliant at all no he was taken
00:36:53
out by armed Defenders and um he was in a shower I remember KY RS and CLA who was actually suspects just as
00:37:02
simpo had been for Park and I and myself were going to arrest him so he he was um
00:37:09
he was in the shower and AOS at the house and he came out the front door with a a tail wrapped around him and a
00:37:15
AOS dog very close Pursuit so he ended up on the front lawn and that was the beginning of uh our dealings with Mr Mr
00:37:24
Raya yeah that must be that must be quite satisfying see someone like that feeling so vulnerable with a tow around
00:37:30
being bitten by a dog yeah we were hoping that it that low point in his life he might just tell us something but
00:37:36
he didn't um yeah it was yeah it was it was a good result that yeah and um yeah
00:37:44
Malcolm Raya um there there's another name that comes that is often associated
00:37:47
with that Tanana pora a young man who ended up um wrongly incarcerated for what 20 years yeah 20 years for being
00:37:54
associated and um you yeah you credit to you you you you had a feeling that this
00:38:00
was like a wrong or an unsafe conviction yeah I based it all on um on Malcolm rowa his
00:38:08
behavior back back in the early 80s he had been picked up of some burglaries in relation to I think it was an undercover
00:38:16
operation or something but it was quite clear to me that from that point on he never committed any crime that was not
00:38:25
uh with anybody else for obvious reason reasons you know and I mentioned in the book all these there's no way he's going
00:38:31
to um take I thought there's no way he's going to take some 18year old plab mouth
00:38:36
little car thief um uh from a different gang along to a rape um which he had you
00:38:45
know he targeted his victims so it didn't make any sense and then I and there was no poor um DNA connection
00:38:53
there it was only Malcolm robis um so how did that fit um it simply didn't and um and when
00:39:02
taner Porter was interviewed um he um to try and explain away not being his DNA he if he was there because he had made a
00:39:13
confession that he was that he was present when the rape took place to the murder so um to kind of confirm that and
00:39:21
hopefully pick up a bit of a reward I believe um he he had to had to nominate who it was was there and whose SE it
00:39:29
would have been so he nominated some senior mongr mob members from um mie dangerous men in in his environment
00:39:37
because he lived there and he was kind of mildly associated with the mob and uh and they were blooded and it wasn't
00:39:47
them I mean why would you nominate somebody who's got is so dangerous to him potentially um to emury and bring
00:39:56
heat down on the m so yeah it just didn't make any sense at all and um of course Malcolm Ray were denied it and
00:40:04
Court as we know so there was a lot of reasons why it didn't make any sense and
00:40:11
behaviorally the Malcolm rer covered his victim's um faces with a with varying
00:40:20
things blankets usually and he didn't um and that wasn't only to stop them
00:40:26
identifying him that was to stop them seeing his fantasy being carried out because his behavior and his signature
00:40:35
was being carried out and he didn't want them to see that he why would he want to
00:40:39
take an 18yearold kid along to see it just I was quite convinced yeah and you you were quite um and I'm gu this would
00:40:47
have been a hard thing to do but you you were you were reasonably vocal about this right over the years like U about
00:40:54
tanapa and um that that he wasn't involved why why did you why did you decide to do that when the easiest thing
00:40:59
would just be to keep your you know tow the line bite your tongue well it came to a came to a
00:41:05
head after a while um because I tanur was in prison still and it was 20 years on well it wasn't quite 20 years on when
00:41:15
I when I spoke out but um he was still in prison and B I knew that we would never get a conviction against Malcolm
00:41:23
rowa for that murder of Susan berett when everyone even in even the people who believed tan por was there everyone
00:41:30
knew that it was Malcolm row had murdered Susan so we weren't going to get a conviction um and then the third
00:41:37
reason was because if the when when Tim mckin and um Krebs and them started to kind of develop this kind
00:41:46
of the defense for por and get him get him out that the only way the police could uh they would have had to fight
00:41:54
fight my behavioral um expertise which which would put rower in prison in the first place for most of those rapes and
00:42:02
many other offenders since then when I was in the criminal profiling unit so I wasn't going to let that happen um
00:42:08
because it was all these people are sitting in prison and they could see see something possibly going to give them a
00:42:14
chance to get out and um and the criminal profiling you going forward you know it put a lot of work into that and
00:42:21
um and it's still going to this day under a different name but you know it was um I wasn't going to let that get
00:42:28
sacrificed because we made a because a mistake was made many years earlier so then um Phil Taylor rang me and uh yeah
00:42:37
I said what I said um I thought well we've been going long enough you know yeah was this in uh 2012 when you got
00:42:43
you got you got disciplined you got sort of red over the calls a little bit for yeah I did and I knew pissed off you
00:42:49
when you look back on that now like um obviously you've been Vindicated but did
00:42:53
did it [ __ ] you off at the time well what did piss me off was um to be honest was the um the fact that they wouldn't
00:43:01
wouldn't do a review of it if I felt that if they because there was so many senior CIB members who who were
00:43:09
supportive as far as poor poor of being innocent you know from different directions you know they they'd been on
00:43:14
the early investigation he'd been interviewed earlier on a year before he got arrested and he was kicked out of
00:43:20
the police station just a uh someone who was talking rubbish and um and a lot of
00:43:25
people were I didn't even know now existed until later on um from different angles and yeah so uh I was brushed off
00:43:34
then more so than back in the day when we took r at court because there were some of the people involved there um
00:43:42
genuinely believed that still genuinely believed that pora was there so that wasn't a problem it was later on when
00:43:48
all this started coming out it was quite obvious what we needed to do was just have an internal review of it and get a
00:43:56
get some detective inspector from Inver Caro or somewhere come up and have a look at it the evidence that was there
00:44:03
and speak to all these people because police are not going to go and talk to some private investigator um
00:44:11
willy-nilly they're going to close shop but it's an internal review they would
00:44:16
have and that could have saved a lot of embarrassment and and when I was taken to the um professional standard little
00:44:25
meeting they had to be on the hand and um and growl at me I um I I said then that it was um I knew where it was going
00:44:34
to end up and it did exactly where it ended up yeah that must have that must have must have hurt though cuz here you
00:44:40
are you you know um devoted your whole life to this um to this career you decorated for the work you've done and
00:44:47
then you know suddenly you've been almost dismissed really for what ended up being being factual well my um I got
00:44:56
the police associ involved in it because I've been summoned to court to produce
00:44:59
stuff that the police wouldn't give me and I and I so so I got a solicitor bar
00:45:05
to work for me through the association Police Association and uh and I had the Police Association involved as well and
00:45:13
and what it was annoying was the fact that they um that hung me out to drive and the the Barrister said that he said
00:45:21
you've been hung out to DW so yeah that was annoying and there was um yeah there was a a police report
00:45:28
that was buried for 17 years that came out um last year um even though I mean it's it's long gone it's in your past
00:45:35
now but um that must have been satisfying yeah look I felt Vindicated I I I didn't even remember making that
00:45:42
report but would have been um I think before would have been late in n in in 2006 just before I retired from as a
00:45:51
sword member and I think I put it in because I wanted a record to be there that this was the reason why I felt like
00:45:58
this you know and um and felt as I did and and I didn't remember writing that
00:46:04
report until Eugene Bingham I think it was contacted me and and and had it reported in the paper so and I thought
00:46:11
oh wow yeah I did write that obviously I did um but what was good part about it wasn't it it show that way back in 2006
00:46:21
was my view where some people might have thought oh you just dream this up later
00:46:24
on you know but that was always the way I saw things yeah it's timestamped in history yeah um and
00:46:32
inspector Steve reliford the the guy that caught tan pora has he offered any sort of an olive branch or anything he
00:46:38
was he at the book launch last night well no ST steeve wasn't here but um look Steve's kind of gone his way and um
00:46:46
you I haven't spoken to Steve for a long time we're pretty close back a while
00:46:49
back but um yeah I I haven't heard from him yeah um yeah and like in hindsight
00:46:56
how did the police get there so horribly wrong was it just the Des desperation to
00:47:01
get a conviction for a high-profile crime or I think they believe that I mean t Laura put his name in the Hat it
00:47:07
wasn't as if they dragged him off the street and beat ANM Mission out of him
00:47:11
he he put his hand up and and it's it's hard to kind of you know you got a
00:47:16
homicide that's a year old or whatever it was at the time and somebody's saying
00:47:20
I was there and I can tell you who else was there well you're not going to walk
00:47:25
away from that are you and so I can understand fully that um it was just later I
00:47:32
mean it was later when I looked at um Raya that really pushed me in that direction I I I've never met tanor I
00:47:41
never had anything to do with him at any stage um well that was that was going to be
00:47:48
the next thing I I was going to ask I was going to so he ended up um for anyone that doesn't know the taner por
00:47:52
story end up getting released and getting 3.5 million in compensation so you haven't you haven't hav seen him
00:47:57
since um I've never seen no yeah spoken on the phone no right never never had
00:48:02
any contact with him whatsoever um yeah crazy crazy chapter to like a remarkable career yeah did it put a bit
00:48:12
of a dampner on on things in a way like sour taste in your mouth oh I think so I
00:48:17
think so yeah um you know they talk about loyalty and um loyalty is a two-way street isn't it and uh I think
00:48:27
yeah I mean the problem problem of the police is at the top of the Heap it becomes
00:48:35
political you know it's why I stayed as a detective Sergeant I I didn't even
00:48:38
want to get involved in any of that stuff so you know I understand I know some good people who've gone up in the
00:48:44
ranks and um and I think you know it does become political up there you've got to kind of agree with policy and
00:48:52
stuff and and my personality I don't I I've struggled to do that so yeah this
00:49:00
goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning about you being like an
00:49:03
old school copper yeah just no um yeah not much not much time for the for the BS yeah it's uh and there's plenty of it
00:49:13
but no I but look there's so many of the ncos and and inspectors are on the front
00:49:21
line they're the people that run the police and um in my opinion you know they're the people that catch the
00:49:28
criminals um and whatever comes from up up top I think a lot of people that get up to the top hierarchy it's just my
00:49:35
kind of view is they they feel like they've got to come up with some great idea but what they don't realize is that
00:49:41
great idea is just the same idea dressed up differently that somebody else brought up 10 years ago and didn't fail
00:49:46
then yeah yeah yeah yeah um with the criminal profiling stuff that you were um you sort of
00:49:54
spearheaded what other um yeah from us new zealanders um were you sort of involved with or associated with well
00:50:02
yeah I I gave a lot of evidence over the in the years of the criminal profiling unit against a lot of Serial offenders
00:50:10
and um some of them are are quite well known and um yeah it was good to be a part of um
00:50:17
helping it wasn't I didn't I didn't arrest them or anything like that I just
00:50:22
gave some evidence that tried to help the them get them convicted you know we did profiling but we also gave evidence
00:50:29
behaviorally to at what they call Joiner hearings to kind of so you've got three
00:50:35
or four rapes that believe to be connected I give evidence that connects them at a join hearing I don't
00:50:42
necessarily give evidence of their trial even but the fact that you get four victims together saying the same thing
00:50:48
is pretty powerful um evidence so yeah get a lot of satisfaction that and a lot of them are wellknown offenders they're
00:50:55
all still in prison yeah or dead um best and worst days on the job worst best and worst yeah I I think the
00:51:06
only way I can look at that is um the worst days is way back and I used to go to fatal motor accidents on the motorway
00:51:14
and bodies all over the place as like a young fellow and um yeah it was um I still have memories of that you know wet
00:51:22
horrible days up up by Tip Top corner it was in the day you know and you'd see
00:51:27
these bloody mutilated bodies all over the bloody place and and I um yeah that's they're the worst things and and
00:51:34
children deaths they're always hard to cope with and I think you ask any police
00:51:38
officer that you know they're the hardest to deal with and um especially when you got kidon they're the worst um
00:51:45
the best um looking up Jay Thompson sitting in court with malcol r got delt to by Justice Anderson and um yeah
00:51:56
they're good days and and getting in the criminal profiling unit the one of the
00:52:01
last ones we ever did criminal profile we profile them as number one on the suspect list they're all good
00:52:08
days yeah is that something you following now I can't remember what it was about but Malcolm rayell was in the
00:52:14
news a couple of years ago and uh you know he appeared in court and it's the
00:52:17
first time the public had seen him I guess in 20 odd years um and he's looking particularly grim and unhealthy
00:52:24
um is that satisfying for you to see that he's uh were you just indifferent well yeah I I did um I I did notice that
00:52:32
he was physically I went along to his sing so um yeah he was physically um he didn't
00:52:40
look great he because he was so very um U big on his physicality you know and um his strength and he depended on it
00:52:50
didn't he and uh U was part of his Persona really um so he obviously looked I don't know if that's what what you
00:52:58
look like after 22 years of sitting in prison I don't know but I remember thinking at the time I thought you know
00:53:04
you you're looking pretty crook mate but I I I could see his eyes were still the
00:53:09
same you know he looked out and um it was It was kind of I'll take his all on
00:53:16
you know that was that was Malcolm R where he his hatred and his uh uh never give up kind of attitude towards
00:53:28
um Society really and uh and and then a month later I got cancer so I thought I hope hope I outlive that buet that was
00:53:37
the only feeling I had you know thought I thought God he's not going to outlive
00:53:41
me is he but um that was the only real thing I didn't really give it toss what
00:53:46
he looked like yeah um yeah that was your prostate cancer diagnosis in 2019 so you retire in 2017 17 and then a c
00:53:55
yeah a couple of years lat it's funny how that happens it's almost like you
00:53:58
you know you have this hectic insanely busy career for decades and then you finally sort of relax and your body it's
00:54:06
it's it's interesting that when I joined the compulsory Asia retirement was
00:54:13
60 so that's what we always thought we were going to do and uh you know that
00:54:18
they reckon that the average life expectancy after 60 at that time was 2 years for a police officer and goes back
00:54:26
to just what you were saying do you live that kind of life and then stop and you
00:54:31
die if they'd kept going would they have lived longer I don't know that incredible thing two years you think
00:54:37
that some of them live until their 90s makes you wonder how many of them die within months of
00:54:43
leaving it was just a little statistic that always kind of stuck in my mind I wondered
00:54:49
why yeah yeah how are you now like do you have any like PTSD or have you have you had any um therapy or anything to un
00:54:57
unpack some of the stuff that you've seen over the years or I I don't I don't
00:55:01
think so I think some people are lucky you know there's some very strong people
00:55:06
out there that just can't deal with death and and especially if it's somebody they know and they crumble and
00:55:15
and sometimes it's how many times they go out to scenes like that and then they'll seen they hit the walls like
00:55:21
Marathon running you hit the wall some point you kind of done Steve Rood used to always put it you've gone to one
00:55:27
battle too many um and and people fall over and but it didn't happen to me doesn't mean that I'm stronger than
00:55:34
anyone else it just means that somewhere in my in my psyche I can kind of deal with something that they can't and it
00:55:40
mean nothing else than that really yeah so there's no obvious um things that you
00:55:45
can pinpoint about how you you dealt with it like did you did you run through your years in the force or were you
00:55:49
partial to a couple of drinks in the evening to wind down I think we all were to some extent um yeah there was a few
00:55:56
few few babies along the way for sure um but um yeah I think I think the grard humor helped us police bars you know
00:56:06
that they rubbish you know we we laughed and and cried in those places yeah I had a um a guy on the
00:56:14
podcast last year I I don't expect you to be familiar with the name but it's um
00:56:17
Billy Evans and he was the police commissioner in um Boston during the uh uh during the mar the Marathon bombing
00:56:24
got 2012 I think it was he said the same sort of thing um he he said you know just black humor is how they they dealt
00:56:31
with it and he goes quite often you know um there'd be like a horrific crime that
00:56:35
had taken place and people would see like a roped off area and a bunch of cops standing around laughing and he's
00:56:39
like it would often look bad like out of context but um it was just like a coping
00:56:43
mechanism yeah it is you well if you've read womo and the choir boys and some of
00:56:50
those kind of books I don't know if you have or not but he talks about that kind
00:56:53
of thing and and he and it some of the humor is is very very dark and um he talked about a fatal motor action on the
00:57:03
motorway on one incident in the choir boys I think it was the choir boys and he and there was all these all these
00:57:09
people kind of looking over traffic coming the other way looking over Constable are they all right and this
00:57:16
this police officer picks up the head of one of the victims and says I don't know
00:57:19
but he doesn't look too good this kind of thing know that really kind of rough
00:57:24
stuff um but uh Jesus he's obviously reached the point where for God's sake
00:57:29
just keep moving and piss off yeah you know that um yeah so dark humor here graveyard humor it's what it is and it's
00:57:37
not only the police I mean the military must have it and I'm sure A&E at the
00:57:42
hospitals must have it a farm and that go and you know all these different people I'm sure they've got the same
00:57:48
thing goodby yeah yeah actually I had had a go around last week um for the podcast called um Dr inti Who's um an a
00:57:57
an A&E doctor here in Oakland and um yeah he said the same sort of same sort
00:58:00
of thing but he said it's um seems like it's a very Bleak place these days like
00:58:04
the amount of shootings that they deal with every single weekend that you just never even read about in the news
00:58:09
anymore no it's a it's the thing about shooting is um I think as long as you
00:58:14
get a breather between each one you can kind of cope but I remember in in I think it was
00:58:20
93 we had 13 shotgun shootings in six months and including the Scher Slaughter and pukao and and um they were all kind
00:58:30
of different um but it was one after the other bang bang bang bang bang and uh and you know we we were worried about
00:58:37
some of the younger staff then because God there's only so much especially shotguns and they they make a bit of a
00:58:45
mess hey I put on um Instagram that you were coming today and asked if there was
00:58:49
any questions and there was tons so these are these are a bit sort of scatter gun all over the place but um
00:58:55
you want to answer some of these questions okay um youth crime why is it so bad and
00:58:59
what do you think needs to be done gosh what a great question that is I wish I knew the answer um I've never
00:59:07
never been a youth aid but um you know it's the old story of give me a give me
00:59:12
a boy from until he's seven I'll give you the man and how do we how do we do
00:59:16
that people I think everybody accepts it we need to kind of somehow get in there
00:59:22
um to these families you know the Joe Thompsons and ravers and all the rest and that get abused and all the rest of
00:59:27
neglected abandoned at an early age it's it's all all to know that but what do
00:59:32
you do about it I got no answer um we can't just go and SNF them um at the age
00:59:39
of four I me you go to a you go to a um a criminal's address and some four-year-old comes out and kicks you in
00:59:45
the shin and tells you to [ __ ] off um you know where you're going to be seeing
00:59:50
that kid next 10 years time but what do we do I don't know I got no answer sad for those kids it's like they never
00:59:59
yeah they start on the back foot and they' never given a chance I I was um um
01:00:03
the guardian of a a a Child part of a family adoption thing a number of years ago and as a result of that um because
01:00:09
he was too young to have therapy myself and my partner at the time we had lots of the therapy on his behalf and and we
01:00:15
learned so much like 80% of a brain development's done in the first thousand
01:00:18
days so thousand everything everything you say you give me a boy for seven years and I'll give I'll give you the
01:00:23
man but it's like yeah life has sort of won and lost in the first three years
01:00:28
believe it or not I one of one of the chapter one of the guys I talked about in the profiling the profiling that I
01:00:35
profiled um was was exactly that I don't know if you remember but it was a when
01:00:40
he was doted out I think it's three and he said you're going to be my parent now
01:00:45
I mean wow it tells you heaps doesn't it you know yeah it sure does unsolved
01:00:50
cases do they occupy much space in your mind well you think of them um there's not
01:01:00
that many to be honest um some of them might appear to be unsolved to some people but as long as you kind of know
01:01:09
um you can take it take a file for as far as you can and sometimes you know you're never going to get the answer
01:01:17
here you know it's like having a jigsaw puzzle in this three or four pieces missing you know I I don't I
01:01:23
don't you can only do what you can do and you know I can live with that must
01:01:29
be frustrating when you when you know who the person is but you just don't have the the correct evidence or the
01:01:35
right amount of evidence or that must be infuriating yeah I mean it happens and and I think the red fox T was a good
01:01:42
example of that you know we knew who the people were responsible for it were but
01:01:46
we didn't quite have enough until and then interestingly enough one of the guys who is's now dealing with that um
01:01:53
who who locked up the offenders um Mike hawood he he was in the Under 12 rugby team with my son um which we
01:02:02
coached and at the time that the red fox went down and here we are he was locking
01:02:07
him up 30 years later you know or 25 years or whatever it was yeah what's the
01:02:11
red fox for anyone that um can't recall that story there was a a murder at the
01:02:14
red fox Tavern of a man Mr Bush and um and they went there was two guys went in and shot him down doing an armed robbery
01:02:25
and uh we kind of it went on for a long time what are some things that you can just not unsee even with
01:02:35
time I don't have any trouble with that um but smells I do um some smells come
01:02:41
back every now and then um I think it smells the strongest sense to be honest what's it what do you mean what
01:02:49
death okay yeah and motor accidents and you know I still going to those fatal motor
01:02:55
accidents this before we used in a place we used to deal with non used non injury
01:03:02
accidents any injury accidents the police dealt with and strictly fatals and the transport dealt with um the non-
01:03:09
injury so we went to all these fatal matter actions and the the smell of three smells always came out was
01:03:17
petrol um booze alcohol and the theer body parts that that b come out it's smell all of its own those
01:03:29
three always live with you you know they um just something that wom me you know I
01:03:37
remember going to a a little kid who sniffed petrol under his house for a long time and and died under there and
01:03:43
he'd been under there in the summer and he he um he was almost flu me pull him
01:03:48
out the smell um I didn't mind looking at it I couldn't didn't have a problem
01:03:54
with that but they brought out a photograph two weeks later and the smell comes straight back bang you know um
01:04:01
thing about smelling was it wasn't until later into my career that I found out
01:04:05
wish that taught me at training College um that when you when you go into a a particularly bad death where somebody's
01:04:12
been dead for a while and the smells enormous your first first instinct is to go in and go back out again to take a
01:04:19
breath of fresh air but you don't um and it was taught to me by Kevy Richard who
01:04:25
went over to the um did a lot of the stuff over in um Thailand when the tital wave went through over and they did at
01:04:34
work over there and they in the with the smells all the time so um he said what you do is you go in and you stay there
01:04:42
until your brain gets rid of it as far as being like it adapts it adapts the brain great thing it figures it out and
01:04:50
and you just stay in there and what the hell they didn't tell me that a training
01:04:54
cols could saved your a lot of grief yeah I don't know if I'm um I'm
01:05:01
normal or not but I'm I'm I was just thinking about this while you gave that
01:05:04
answer I'm 51 years old I've I've seen a couple of dead bodies in my life but
01:05:08
only in like open casket situations and and funerals you know I've never seen so
01:05:13
the sort of stuff that you you're seeing on um probably like a week toe basis or
01:05:17
whatever like it's really abnormal well yeah I suppose you get used to it I I don't know if you get
01:05:24
totally used to it or not but when I started I I remember I used to think about the people you know and and um
01:05:33
especially if they're young people in fatal motor accidents and and the likes
01:05:38
you know especially in the young days and I think these poor buggers you know especially in the mot down Tip Top
01:05:44
quarter I always keep going back to that but I remember a few of them there and you think a few a few hours ago these
01:05:50
people were were dancing and having a good time their life was full ahead of them the gone and I yeah that was that
01:05:59
was hard and I but I thought about it then a lot but as as you go along you kind of it just become I hate to say it
01:06:07
but it becomes routine really like sick nature yeah yeah um but I'm surely like
01:06:14
knocking on someone's door to tell them that uh like a family member's gone that
01:06:17
that never got easier yeah no it never good and it depends a little bit you we struck some of them where that tell to
01:06:25
bug her off before You' cuz some of the people that you were going to inform
01:06:29
come from families that didn't like us very much so you I remember one in particular and they and I said well
01:06:35
there's no easy way to say this but he's um you if you got a brother called so
01:06:41
and so when he's down at the Mory you know you're going to come with me and
01:06:44
identify him you know that you got to be abrupt at some point other they'll kick
01:06:48
you off the doorstep so it all kind of yeah kind of learn to kind of run with them I suppose like that's the the worst
01:06:55
news imaginable to to give to another human being did it help other areas of your life and that you know having
01:07:02
difficult conversations that most of us would probably procrastinate over you became very good at them because you
01:07:07
realize it's this difficult conversation is actually not a matter of life and
01:07:10
death well some people who are lot better at it than others you know I don't think it' ever come easy for me
01:07:15
that's for sure and I don't think it' come easy for many people but um perhaps
01:07:19
some kind of dealt with it better than others you know if you got a um if you're an EXC car salesman or something
01:07:24
perhaps do you follow high-profile trials now just out of curiosity or you sort disengaged with the news yeah yeah not
01:07:33
really I I I don't watch the news much to be honest um yeah know it's all too sad
01:07:40
really a lot of it you just yeah happy with your rose gardens and yeah look I mean and happy
01:07:46
with I like to surround myself with happy people and people that I want to be with that's the other good thing
01:07:51
about retirement you don't have to kind of be in the in the company of people
01:07:55
you don't want to be you know you just choose yeah um some more questions from
01:07:59
Instagram did you ever come across any dirty cops I don't how dirty but some of them
01:08:05
were um a bit naughty um in some of their behavior but you know in all my time in South Oakland you know they talk
01:08:14
about planting evidence and that kind of stuff I never saw it now I can honestly
01:08:19
hand on heart say that you know I never saw evidence getting planted or anything
01:08:23
like that and then and I know a lot of people probably won't believe me but that's a fact you know I I I'm hoping
01:08:32
that you know we had a reputation in the police department as one of the least corrupt least corrupt country for
01:08:39
starters and then of course him naturally goes from that as to go the least corrupt Police Department I hope
01:08:44
it stays like that um can he recall a time that he feared for his life I feared for my life um there fear
01:08:55
but I I don't think I ever feared for my life um certainly fear that I was going
01:08:59
to get um dealt to for sure but um no I think it's probably more so nowadays
01:09:06
with all these firearms that are around poor guys out there and girls out there now um I think it's a bit more dangerous
01:09:13
now as far as thinking you might be going to die today yeah by the way we just um while you giving that answer
01:09:19
weird like a couple hundred meters up the road from Oakland Central police station and there was just a siren going
01:09:23
past you didn't even flinch or anything did it take a while after retirement for
01:09:27
you to better switch off to those noises or no it was a for a long time it would
01:09:33
be my wife or or or somebody else that I might be in the car with oh I want to wear that g i I hadn't even thought
01:09:39
about it you know I just and they said oh it must be something serious going on there I said it could be a motor
01:09:46
accident it could be anything could be a burglary a domestic vus I just don't
01:09:50
think about it I and I'm not interested but when I was in the CB um I think it's
01:09:58
common because I've discussed this with some of the guys they say you you look at suspicious vehicles
01:10:05
or or something going on you think what's that car doing there and and it was be the wives that would pick you up
01:10:12
on say what are you looking at you're not at work now that but it it does be
01:10:17
you do get like that I mean but afterwards I mean I I couldn't give a toss you you know police guy comes along
01:10:25
okay right so the notes section of your phone there's not like a whole lot of
01:10:28
number plates of vehicles of potential interest that you've seen and I'll get
01:10:33
on you um can chuk remember the first time he saw a dead body well the first time I saw um
01:10:43
anything at all was a like that you know I was we didn't even go to funerals when
01:10:47
I was a kid you know we were really protected kind of environment I was naive as hell but when we got to
01:10:53
training College they took us to the morch and they cut up a brain a couple of the guys fell over and fainted I
01:11:00
didn't but but you know this is the first time I've seen anything at all and
01:11:03
then of course after that it was yeah I don't know about the first time but it
01:11:07
probably would have been at a fatal motor accident or something or a or a sudden death I mean sudden death were
01:11:14
common as one thing you know you suicide well not only suicides anyone that would
01:11:21
that you didn't have a doctor certificate for you was kind of you had the police had to attend you know and um
01:11:27
and then put a coroners report in and and a lot of them some of them were kind of people who had been you know old
01:11:33
people who might have been dead for a week in the middle of summer or or or as you say suicides hanging blowing their
01:11:40
heads off um um yeah um I honestly can't remember the first one I think it would
01:11:46
have been a fatal motor accent probably um what would he say is the most rewarding moment of his police
01:11:53
career I think sitting with victims in the court when rayel got convicted and sentenced I think that was the biggest
01:12:04
the best best moment of particularly um and and Justice Anderson giving his little standup
01:12:14
Raya and uh it was it was really good and some of the stuff he he he said in his sentencing um would um bring tears
01:12:24
to your eyes really I mean it was so just toor stps off them really stuff real good stuff and I it's in the book
01:12:32
but I yeah that was good um someone wants to know should police be armed oh y when I was in the police I always said
01:12:42
no um but now it's not for me to say I'm not out there um things have changed and
01:12:51
um I think they should ask the people on the front line what they think and I can't answer it any better than you can
01:12:57
probably don't really um cop shows on TV does he have any favorites and is there
01:13:03
any resemblance to real life well I've asked been asked this this many years ago and I and um when I first
01:13:13
joined um there was a program on television called Hill Street Blues and I I used to watch that because it was
01:13:21
humorous and I I used to laugh at that but but lot of cup shows now I don't watch it all probably the one that I
01:13:29
liked was foil I don't if you've ever seen foil it was a a British program and
01:13:37
during Second World War and it was about a detective superintendent who um was soling crimes and things it was all
01:13:45
these connections with the war and um MI5 and MI6 were coming in and getting in the way of his investigation and that
01:13:54
and what I like about foil was he never took his eye off the ball all he hunted for was the truth regardless of all the
01:14:02
political interference that came along and he he just keep going straight ahead and never lost track of what he was
01:14:08
after and um yeah I thought I enjoyed him um someone sent me a message on Instagram my daughter is 21 and wants to
01:14:16
join the place it's been her dream since she was 16 what advice or words of wisdom SL encouragement would you give
01:14:23
her about the profession yeah i' what I'd say would be go through with your dream you've got
01:14:32
to do that but um it's just those just kind of keep your head about you for those first six months in the job and
01:14:42
and hope that you get a good NCO that'll look after you um and follow them and if
01:14:49
he's good if he's he or she is good um you'll be right but if not um you might
01:14:57
have difficulty but uh um I I really think you're got to follow a dream and and it it's not going to be like it was
01:15:04
for me um because the life goes on the world's turned a few times since then um
01:15:09
but you know you'll still get a lot of enjoyment and you'll get some camaraderie that you'll get in sell very
01:15:16
few other places I think yeah is it an occupation where a lot of people get chewed up and sped out yeah I think so
01:15:23
yeah what did you ever feel like in the tail no no never no I never did um Until
01:15:29
the End um but um no I didn't um because you're surrounded by some great people
01:15:38
really if Chu could give parents one tip to help uh their kids stay safe what would it
01:15:48
be um Know Your Home Zone um a lot of people get into trouble when they they they go you know they may come from
01:15:57
South Orland or wherever and they go into somewhere else and and it's foreign
01:16:02
to them um I think you just got to be particularly careful there um um because you don't know what you're dealing with
01:16:14
um um how do you keep them safe but the most important thing in in your life is um being pointed in the right direction
01:16:22
by a good person and you know if if for example Joe Thompson had run into somebody in his life who was good and
01:16:32
had decent morals and could could kind of focus him he might have turned out right just just be good and and um give
01:16:42
them a good foundation that and they'll be okay um who's Neil grimste do you know Neil
01:16:51
grimste well spoke to him last night oh he he sent me an email saying um ask Chuck about his finest profiling
01:16:59
success that's cuz grimbo was involved in it yeah no um there was a there was a
01:17:05
bad rape in um a shocking rape in poo just near the end of I think it might have been 2006 it was nearing the end of
01:17:13
my time in profiling unit and um we we had put together lists would been very successful but we'd never had we' never
01:17:21
had a number one and so grim grimbo got a hold of me and he he said can you CH can you can you give me a
01:17:31
um a list of suspects so I did I think it was hundred and something he says uh he came back to me he said CH I haven't
01:17:38
got enough staff to deal with 120 suspect can you can you break it down a bit so I gave him 20 um and and then he
01:17:49
said can you prioritize it I said yeah okay I prioritized it and then grimo so proudly kind of points out and um it was
01:17:59
a great great result he gets a ring from the ESR one day and uh one night and he
01:18:06
given him the name of the offender and uh because they've been out and blooded the the suspects you see the
01:18:11
top 20 and uh and he said I'd never heard of the guy so he goes down to the station and and and looks at the folder
01:18:20
and there was number one on the list was this guy the locals in Pugo didn't even
01:18:25
know he was there um and he was caught by his past just like Jay Thompson was and that was the Pinnacle for us and see
01:18:32
in the profiling again it we had we created a criminal suspect list with the offender at number one um yeah not long
01:18:40
after that I finished what do you hope your legacy will be both within the force and in the
01:18:47
broader Community I'm hoping that I've helped rap Victor s deal with um the procedures
01:18:58
and and processes that they have to go through and helped help them get through court but also help catch catch the bad
01:19:06
buggers really well there's no doubt you've done that right some of the worst some of the
01:19:12
baddest some of the worst um yeah um but they'll keep coming they'll keep
01:19:18
coming and the society we got today yeah this has been a great chat hook it's been really
01:19:26
enjoyable right well yeah real real easy to be honest though well no it's funny but I wonder how how
01:19:35
much it is from from your perspective because I've had all sort of people on
01:19:37
the podcast but you know you have um say s gram Henry here you know recalling some of the highs and lows of his life
01:19:44
but even the lows of his life they're very different to you know like what you've been through and even the highs
01:19:49
in your life they they're still you know quite Grim memories in a way aren't they
01:19:53
they are but I I don't think that unusual for for detective if you were I I could bring you in quite a few
01:19:59
detective sergeants and detectives that could give you a similar kind of story really um to some extent you know the
01:20:06
ups and downs anyway you know and how they survive um you know that girl that wants to join the police force Police
01:20:13
Department I should say um is um you know if she hangs in there um she'll have experiences you know good and bad
01:20:25
but don't dwell on the bad dwell on the good and dwell on the the people that
01:20:30
you work with you know they're they're great well that's great hey just before
01:20:35
we end um this show is sponsor sponsored by the generate kiwi sa scheme love um challenged me to give $20,000 to charity
01:20:43
by spreading the word about the importance of kiwi saer advice and planning for your future so if you
01:20:47
answer these five questions uh generate will donate 500 bucks to a charity of your choice what would it be what you
01:20:54
want to name the charity now or do it at the end you can have a moment to think about it if you want I
01:21:01
probably um Rape Crisis okay perfect okay are you a spender or a saver spender what's been your biggest money
01:21:16
mistake um getting a divorce don't even cheap are they the one though that's probably not bad
01:21:26
for a life lifelong cop yeah one uh who do you who do you talk to when you have questions about
01:21:37
money probably my son that's interesting cuz most people had on the podcast they uh yeah they
01:21:44
generally say it's a parent they talk to the whole the whole thing changes right
01:21:49
yeah I mean get so much so much happening and it's changing in this world 's no point in going going to the
01:21:56
elders you go to the youngers you know it's like like getting some grandson in
01:22:00
to kind of check your computer yeah is this a scam or is this not a scam absolutely uh um uh you're already here
01:22:10
but the next question is what's something fun you can see yourself doing in retirement oh just just going down and
01:22:17
have a coffee getting involved with a community and and you know I want to get on a rotary and own a band and join the
01:22:26
local Bowling Club just get to know people a lot of good people out there to communicate with that's what I want to
01:22:32
do it really seems like you're genuinely happy like you're really enjoying your
01:22:36
life well Absolut well really what else is there I mean that point it's kind of
01:22:43
dwelling in the bad in the Dark Places um I think you got to enjoy life you never know what's around the corner my
01:22:50
wife my wife my second wife this is um and I the last the last one too the last one no more yeah no more um we
01:22:58
made a we made a pack years ago that we were going to talk about spending money is to just travel and enjoy ourselves
01:23:06
because you never know what's around the corner and um then of course um and we
01:23:11
did we've spent 20 years wasting a hell lot of money just traveling around Europe and places and and having a good
01:23:18
time and sure enough health problems come to poal Carolyn and um and now we can't do anymore so yeah if you could
01:23:27
pick anywhere in New Zealand to retire where would it be and why Cambridge you there already what's so good about
01:23:33
Cambridge like it's it it's flat not like Oakland here where I had to walk
01:23:38
down the hill in Parell and had to climb a mountain coming up the other side to get to the the um book launch last night
01:23:46
and um it's flat and it's a beautiful town a lot of lot of grhe heads like me
01:23:51
and um lovely cafes people will smile at you walking down the street which I'm
01:23:56
not used to um it's just a great place yeah and what do you love most about being a
01:24:02
Ki I'm a fourth generation kiwi what else would I be you know I I think we're
01:24:08
pretty layback and um and we are we're no we simple is not the right word but
01:24:15
we're simplistic in our approach to life you know we don't get too tied up in
01:24:20
crazy kind of ideas and and things I I think we're pretty pretty lay back really that's what I like and most
01:24:28
people are good right absolutely yeah yeah you forget about it because you this is why I said that said before here
01:24:36
D that I I lived in in the community that I worked in because if you didn't all you'd ever deal with is the
01:24:44
bad people and that's that's the view you'd have was you live there you see
01:24:49
that that's bad people only take up 5% of the population the rest what about
01:24:52
all the rest of them they're all pretty good H hey thanks so much for your your time
01:24:57
today and and also for your service over the last four decades or whatever it's
01:25:00
been um what a career what a life oh what are you what are your grandkids and and great grandkids call you is it POA
01:25:06
Granddad what a yeah papa CH Papa Chu that's me I love it oh we didn't I
01:25:11
didn't even ask why why the is is is the name Chuck to do with um hen yeah yeah
01:25:16
right right I got it a trenum right a that's followed you around for life no
01:25:21
one no one calls you Dave hey no there was one of the guys at was at the launch last night who I work with a lot um at
01:25:28
my retirement when they said my name was David he said I never knew your first name been working with him for
01:25:36
years well that's great hey congratulations on the book and masking monsters and thank you so much for
01:25:41
coming on the podcast today I really appreciate it okay D pleasure