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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in to Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first. >> Heather McCrae, welcome to my podcast. >> Thanks, Dom. It's great to be here.
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>> It's great to have you here. I I don't know how this happens, but um you were
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my uh maths tutor um out of school hours when I was 14. Um so you were an adult at the time. I was a kid. And now, how
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do you look younger than me now? The maths the maths doesn't stack up. Well,
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I hear you're running marathons, so uh I think you're stacking up pretty well,
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Tom. >> Yeah. Oh, thank you. >> Going strong. >> So, here the McCrae, um the head
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headmaster, do you say or head mistress? >> No, principal. >> Principal. The principal of Dio. And
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it's a role that you've had for the last 17 years. >> Yes, it is. Yeah.
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>> So, I was thinking about this this morning. So, the the girls that are in
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the final year of school at Dio now, they were born the year you begun. >> Yes.
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>> Yeah, >> that's correct. And uh so so I was having a laugh with the girls about that
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last week that some of them weren't born when I first started there because it
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you know uh they usually spend 13 years with us. Uh some of the girls spend longer because we started an early
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learning center as well. So they can start at three and a half and some of the girls did that. So, uh it's been um
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a wonderful journey with them and uh there's nothing better than watching our
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young women grow and uh graduate as uh strong stroppy and knowledgeable young women. I love it.
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>> Is stroppy a good word? >> Well, we want them to be able to hold their own uh with their beliefs and
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values and uh to know that they have uh equal rights in the world. And I think we're very l lucky to live in a country
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like New Zealand where women were the first to get the vote in the uh 1890s. Uh so we've always looked back at that
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and said, you know, what does that mean today for our young women and how do we continue uh that level of equality that
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we're looking for? It's still not quite there yet, Dom, and there are some uh
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areas where, you know, women are still not paid equally for the same work. Uh, and you know, it's expensive being a
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woman, more expensive than being a male. So, we could have a chat about that sometime.
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>> Well, today's the day. Well, you were you was I didn't even think about having
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you as a podcast guest, you know. Um, and then I had um Tim Oconor on, who's
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the principal of Oakland Grammar, and then a lot of people um came forward and suggested you. Um, so I thought it's um
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you'd be the perfect person for this um because just the the insights that you've got on young women in New Zealand
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um is more than most. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it is. >> Why is it more expensive to be a woman?
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>> Um in terms of >> Have you heard of the pink tax? So the pink the pink tax is the way in
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which uh society I guess expects women to live and to present themselves and to be uh is often far more expensive. So so
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you could wear you know your your five shirts in a week uh with the same suit. Uh a woman has far more variation in
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what she wears. Um she also for a large uh percentage of her time needs products
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that males don't need uh which uh you will be aware of. Uh and then you know
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there's all the additional things. I always laugh cuz my husband's haircut
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costs $35. He's got a great head of hair. Uh he doesn't like the color because it's uh he's a red head. Um but
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but it costs me uh hundred and something dollars to have my hair uh done on a regular basis. So so there you know you
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add that up over a long period of time along with the clothes. Uh and women like to have lovely nails. I do. uh and
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and I think there's a bit about your own private uh feeling about how you want to
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present this yourself that's very important but it does cost and typically women are 12 to 13% paid lower than
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their male counterparts. So so women who end up retired end up with less money to
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retire on as well. Uh so so there's that uh difference between uh the genders as
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they grow and learn and develop in our country. M the the pay equity thing. What's your take on that?
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>> Um well in teaching surprisingly enough there is pay equity until you get to the
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uh discretionary level which is often at principal level. Uh and so often uh especially in the private school sector
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male principles are paid more than female counterparts. uh and sometimes the the strengths and having been
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principal of a very large state co-ed secondary school uh there's this view you know that male principles should be
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appointed over female principles because they can control the boys uh whereas in
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my experience I loved being a female principal in a co-educational school uh and it's really lovely to hear the boys
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talk openly about their family and show vulnerability uh rather than sometimes the staunch attitudes uh that you see
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from students. >> Uh that's what I love about being in uh in a all women environment. I find it um
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very open and respectful and uh people are happy to be vulnerable. >> Uh and I think that's a real strength of
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how we educate young women. >> Yeah. So, um it's just recently been announced that you're retiring
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>> um at the end of the first term in 2026 after 17 years on the job. >> Um yeah, what sort of thought process
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went into that? >> Um I guess there's a time when you look at the growth and development of a
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school and uh when I first went to do I promised them I'd be there for 5 years.
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that had been a fairly consistent pattern for me with regard to my previous principal's roles. Uh, and I'd
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really enjoyed, I guess, getting to know the school uh, and implementing change.
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But there were a couple of challenges along the way uh, that um, that kept me there for longer. one was co uh and I
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didn't feel it was the right time to leave the school during that time and I
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felt really committed to ensuring we could continue to educate our young people and have a high level of
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normality and regularity through that period of disrupted learning. >> Uh straight out of uh 2022, we looked
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forward to normality. Uh and then 2023 uh the floods hit and we were flooded twice not once during uh Oakland
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anniversary weekend but the following Wangi weekend uh and the cyclone that hit New Zealand over that time. So there
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was a lot of work with the flooding. We had six buildings yellow stickered and it was really important for me uh to be
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the consistent person through those that decision making to make sure that we got
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the campus back up and where it should be. Since then, we've also taken on a
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couple of uh climate related fixes of large buildings, a couple of big projects this year with our Shrewsbury
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block and chapel. And I wanted to see those through and with uh the new curriculum starting to roll out, uh it's
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been great to have some input into that and also into the new qualifications. So, it's a good time for a new principal
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to transition in. I can't imagine how nervous you were the um the morning of the staff meeting.
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>> Don't go there. >> It was an afternoon full staff meeting. >> Uh and um the uh chaplain could see my
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distress at announcing this and um she took over which was really needed. All right, we'll stop right there. Yeah,
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it's tough. >> Yeah, tears are good. It shows how much it means to you and how and I suppose
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how much you mean to the staff there. >> I guess yeah it um it's always important
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I think um to ensure that you know you leave the place better than you found it. My
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father was very much about that. whenever he borrowed anything, he always said to me, um, you know, if if you're
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using anything, doing anything, or borrowing anything, you give it back better than you found it. So, I like to
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think I've done that. Uh, Dom, >> we can change the subject if you want.
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>> Yes, we do. We will. >> Do you um Yes. So, how long ago um was the announcement made?
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>> Um, oh, about 3 weeks ago now. three, four weeks ago. >> Whenever you talk about it to to this
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day, you still get emotional about it. >> I do. >> It's going to be terrible next term.
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>> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. It's a long farewell too.
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>> It is a long tale. >> It is. Well, it's important that the board have really good lead in time uh
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and you know can appoint uh you know the next person going forward. >> Yeah, we got some tissues there if you
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>> Oh, thank you. >> Um what what will you miss most about the job? Um,
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>> and least what will you miss most and least of the job? >> Uh, yes, there's a lot to miss, you know, as
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part of the job because you're really part of a big community. >> Uh, and I love that, you know, the the
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challenges certainly that come along. Um, there's not too many parts of the job that, you know, that that I don't
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like. Um, in fact, probably none. Um because you know when people do come in and they want to talk about you know how
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we can get better uh how we can improve education uh it's because they've got
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you know a um I guess an objective view of something. Sometimes when you're working in a school you can get so
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absorbed and and uh engrossed in it uh that you know the keeping a check on those outside points of view whether you
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know you feel that they're good ones or unreasonable ones. uh everybody is worth
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listening to and I I feel that's really important. So uh for me even if you know
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you from time to time you you get nailed over certain issues uh I think it's
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important to also demonstrate that we've got to learn as well uh as adults and as
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an organization to make sure that we move forward uh and that we can adjust and adapt uh to the needs of students in
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the parent community. So I will really miss that. I've met the most amazing people in the job. Uh and uh and I've
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seen the most inspiring young women leave and you know have incredible careers. >> Uh and that's been uh absolutely
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fantastic to see and be part of. >> What what sort of fires are you putting
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out on any given week over the last 17 years? Like what what are the most common reasons people get like suspended
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or expelled for? Does that happen often? Um it doesn't happen as often uh as you
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would think. Uh and in a school like Dio, I've often said, you know, if you can't teach at Dio, you can't teach
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anywhere. Uh the community are amazing. They are supportive and because they are
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investing you know they already pay taxes but they're investing extra uh to provide an education for their daughter
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which which is you know that there's a difference and and they see that and want that difference uh for their their
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daughter and it is important uh you know to realize I think the commitment that we all have in the schools we're very
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highly accountable so you know when parents are making such an investment, you know, we take that very seriously uh
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and make sure that we are in fact providing what we say we're providing uh and uh that it's something that's uh
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that we can continue to change and adapt as the world changes around us as well.
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I think you can do that very quickly in a private school. in the state sector uh
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you you know you you were somewhat limited by the speed of life with the with the public sector and um you know
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the the ministry of education and all the organizations associated with it. >> Uh the good thing in the private sector
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is you can be very nimble and you can set your own vision and actually then make it happen. Um so so there aren't so
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many issues. Certainly uh in my previous school Pakaranga College uh I did suspend far more and you'd be interested
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to know that many more of them were boys than girls. >> That doesn't surprise me. What what what
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sort of what sort of what sort of things is it like like vaping on the school grounds or fighting or
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>> It's more aggression with with boys. uh w with girls uh you know they look for
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more peaceful ways typically of of resolving matters uh which is which is the case and I think you can you know
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develop you know the work around a school so that it's embedded in the school culture as to how you deal with
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uh disagreements and and issues that arise uh between students. Uh so I think probably the pattern I would have seen
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over recent years uh is the growth of issues that have um that have been caused or or have played out on social
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media >> and so much more uh social media now is occupying the minds of our young people
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and can 24/7. uh and it's been very hard for parents to adjust to the speed of social media
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and the way in which it can impact on a student's well-being. And you know, I
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think that's the biggest difference I've seen in the in the last, you know, 10
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years especially. >> There's um a campaign at the moment um called B416 to try and get social media
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um banned for New Zealanders under the age of 16. What's your take on that? >> I to some extent agree with it. Uh my
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question is how will they actually you know how would that be monitored and I guess we're keeping an eye on Australia.
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Um but I do believe uh and have seen examples of where it's incredibly damaging uh on the well-being of a
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person who has been exposed to all sorts of behaviors online. You know, let's
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face it, you know, we wouldn't let our children go to uh a a mall at 11:00 at
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night on their own. uh that we know uh has pornographic u images uh in you know that has violence uh that has uh the
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ability to um for someone to pick them up and not know who they are and take them somewhere. We would never allow
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that as parents but but many uh young people are being exposed to that online through social media all the time. Um
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and you know the social the companies that have supported the big uh tech companies don't seem interested in
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working out you know how to manage the age of the students who go online and most students you know if they're um 10
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years old signed up to uh Facebook have no or Instagram or any of the other social media platforms there's no way of
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checking how old they are and and often um parents unaware of all of the safety steps that
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they can take with their students. I think NetSafe has been a fantastic organization to provide that uh support
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for parents alongside of a lot of work we do at the school. >> Um so yes, so I I support it if if it
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can work. Uh and I think it's really important to protect the self-image that
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our young people grow up with and they're so fragile in that under 16year-old age group. Uh, I think the
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older students can develop more savvy attitudes to social media and certainly we were one of the first schools to ban
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phones during the school day. And you know, people would phone up and say, "How did you do that?" And we said,
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"Well, we just did it." And you know the the kids by and large the girls were
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actually quite relieved because they you know they did cartwheels on the lawn outside uh and engaged in real games
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that you know involved physical activity rather than sitting in a corner communicating with each other on their
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phones. So we saw a massive difference and I'm really pleased uh that the government made steps towards you know
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banning phones during school day. >> When did you do that? God, it must have
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gone down like a a cold cup of sick at the time. >> Well, it didn't actually. It was um
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quite surprising, Dom. Uh we had very little push back from parents and um and hardly any push back from students at
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all. >> I don't believe that. I believe it about the parents, but not the students.
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>> Yeah. No. Was it was actually true. Yeah. And it just shows you that sometimes the kids are aware of issues
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and how uh it is impacting on them. uh and sometimes we as adults I think have to show courage in that space uh and you
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know know what's what we want for our young people and what we could see was a
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general decline uh typically across all OECD countries of you know young people growing up and while we monitor
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well-being and we didn't see it necessarily impacting on our well-being at school we knew that well-being uh
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across OECD countries was declining I know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I mentioned on um Instagram that
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you're coming in and I've got um I I outsourced so many questions um in particular in relation to I suppose
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young women in New Zealand and uh there's there's no one more I suppose more equipped to talk about this than
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what you are with your insights from the last 17 years as principal of Dio. But first of all um a little bit about you.
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>> So who is who is Heather McCrae and what's her backstory? Okay, my my backstory is rural New
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Zealand and uh I was born in Payura. Uh our farm and you know my I had wider family, uncles, my dad's uncles all had
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farms uh in the kind of north wire rapper area. Uh so uh I was raised on a farm. I had all older brothers. Uh and
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so I was the youngest girl. The boys would still say I'm the spoiled girl of
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the family, but hey, they'll get over it. Uh, and but I loved uh growing up on
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a farm. I thought it was I feel very fortunate to be raised in such a beautiful country uh in rural New
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Zealand during those times. Uh I went to a two-teer rural primary school and then
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caught the bus to Tarura College uh every day through to year 13. And uh I loved school. I I was probably a girly
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SWAT. Uh and I particularly loved uh science and mathematics which is you know where I went on to further study at
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Massa University. >> Uh so those uh you know I love animals. I always have because I was raised with
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them. >> Uh and uh so I think it's lovely at Dio where we have uh we have a a school cat
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two school cats. We've managed to acquire another one lately that seems to be visiting us a lot. Uh and you know I
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really um believe in the counseling dogs that we have too. One in junior and one
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in senior school. And it's lovely to see the way in which children relax when
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they're going through hard times. Uh >> counseling dog. What's that?
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>> Yeah. So he uh they come in um into the school and work in our uh counseling
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unit. So they are trained uh and they're trained to sit and relax uh so that
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children can hug them. Uh and they're very well behaved. They eat on demand and do the other end on demand as well.
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So uh I I was going to try it out with the person who who quickly stopped me cuz she said, "You really don't want
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that on the office floor, do you, Heather?" >> Um it's like a party trick.
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>> Yeah. No, I I love animals. So So that's always been part of me. So, I think when
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I grew up, it was going to be a vet or something in in science. >> Uh- w uh I majored in organic chemistry
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and biochemistry at university. Loved those uh subjects and uh went on uh to discover education and how uh special it
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is to be able to pass on that knowledge to to young people. >> Yes. So much has changed um since you
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were a teenager to teenagers of today. What was the biggest sort of adversity or stress during your teenage years?
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>> Um, I'm not I don't know if I can remember that back that far. >> I mean, I'm sure there's the obvious
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stuff like exam exam stress and anxiety, but what else? >> There was that. Um, yeah, I mean, I I
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went to a, you know, it was a lovely rural secondary school. We had great teachers and it was interesting because
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I think in rural education then you did have a stronger level of teaching uh now
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uh or well if I look back on it though you know we were lucky in rural New Zealand to have quality teachers.
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>> I think it's hard today to get the same quality teachers that we had back then.
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We were very fortunate I think. >> Why is that? Um I think unfortunately I
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think the country uh puts down teaching and it's not always seen as a desirable
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career. Uh some of that is you know the hard work that's associated with it and
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for sure you know teaching is a job where you're giving a lot. Uh and sometimes you know people find that
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really difficult to be able to work their way through and see it as a career. Um, but but I personally think
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it's just the most amazing career because you see these incredible young people. A few years ago, my uh
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son-in-law who who is a neurosurgeon um said to me, you know, Heather, you've
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got the best job ever. And he said, "I'm trying to save people's lives. Sometimes
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it works and sometimes it doesn't. Uh, and those times are really hard." He
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said, "What you see are these amazing young people and you're you're helping
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them to achieve the rest of their life that's before them." >> And it was the first time I've I'd heard
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that comparison made. And you know, it's so true. You know, it's a it's a great
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career. And I think it's a shame uh that more young people don't see it as an
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opportunity for them >> and earlier in life. What's the difference between Heather,
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the person at home, and Miss McCrae, the school principal? >> Yeah, I probably swear at home a bit
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more than I do. >> What do you think of swear words? >> I can't tell you that.
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>> Well, I learned a few in Mandarin as well when I uh lived and worked in
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China. Uh so that was quite handy as a principal uh because sometimes students think students think they can flick into
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uh their own language. Uh but knowing a few swear words in a foreign language is
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quite useful too. Um so uh yes at home um I'm you know I love to unwind um pajamas and you know being able to
00:24:22
relax. I love that. >> Uh and to be able to take time out to de-stress. I'm also still a runner uh
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like you. I uh took up running in um in my middle middle probably 30s I think late 30s. Yeah,
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>> that's right. Just recently. Um and it's something I've always enjoyed. You can
00:24:44
just put on a pair of running shoes, destress. You don't need to run fast to
00:24:49
try and tire yourself out. But um I found it great. And I also built a lot of friends uh through, you know, running
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um marathon clinic and things like that back in the day. >> Uh and like your mom was was a good
00:25:03
runner, too, that I I knew back then. And uh that, you know, it was a great way we could go to each other's houses
00:25:10
with children and fit in a run. And it was lovely to be able to combine that with childhood and career and to work
00:25:18
through. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is was this like part of the jogging boom of the 1980s? Yeah. Yeah,
00:25:24
it was. When like when running was invented. >> That's right. >> So, um Okay. So, so we've established
00:25:30
that you're a prolific swearer. Um what what what else would your students be
00:25:35
shocked to learn about you? >> Um what else? Well, that's uh yeah, it's hard to know actually. I'm
00:25:45
not sure. I don't keep a profile much on social media >> um because you know as you know
00:25:52
sometimes principal can can be targeted >> uh and yeah so so I'm not I don't keep
00:25:58
that much as a profile. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah I think that's uh that it's
00:26:04
important that you don't get overwhelmed by some of that stuff that that I've
00:26:10
seen go on you know across the board uh when you make a decision. Sometimes um you know you can end up getting uh you
00:26:20
know getting a lot of social media feedback and sometimes that that can be quite overwhelming for principles and
00:26:27
I've heard principles talk about that before too. >> Is this from students or parents of
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students or >> sometimes it can be from overseas can come from anywhere. >> Um and some of those issues can be very
00:26:40
uh difficult to to manage and handle. uh and you know that's uh the harder side I
00:26:46
think of dealing with it. Also um might I add that sometimes the media I think are just overcritical of private schools
00:26:54
and want to um catastrophize small things that happen. One example would be the gentleman you know last week at Mari
00:27:03
Kopa who was uh you know who was killed by the police. Um, and you know the the next media coverage included, you know,
00:27:12
that he went to a private school who taught him survival skills. >> Oh, I saw that. I thought Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:18
So, this is Tom Phillips you're talking about. He went to St. Paul's and
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Hamilton and they run a a outdoor education thing called Tihoy, which is bloody amazing. Yes.
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>> And it was um >> Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, >> it was kind of a long bow to draw, I
00:27:31
think, when you're going to hold schools. Yeah, it was cuz later on in the article it also said like he he grew
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up and his dad was a pig hunter. So that I mean that's where he learned the bush
00:27:39
skills but also you know just having the bush skills wherever he learned them that had nothing to do with the actions
00:27:43
he took. >> That's right. And you know that course may well you know have caused other
00:27:48
people uh you know a great deal of benefit from surviving and learning uh how to manage uh living in the forest if
00:27:56
you get lost and what to do about it. So, so those things and you know are never emphasized. Yeah. So, so just at
00:28:04
times I read stuff like that and I think yeah, >> you know it it's it's not sort of uh
00:28:12
relevant I think and it's a shame that people go down that pathway of um making
00:28:17
that a big deal. Yeah. For the school involved because it's a very good school.
00:28:22
>> Yeah. Why why why are private schools targeted? Um yeah, I think >> you think it's a tall poppy thing.
00:28:30
>> It could be. Yeah. Um I'm not sure. I think some people see um private schools as taking money away
00:28:38
from the state sector, but but we don't. In fact, we give the government bit more
00:28:43
back in GST than we ever take from the government and we are educating uh students who would normally cost the
00:28:50
state sector anyway. So, you know, it's often the views are, you know, perhaps a
00:28:57
little old-fashioned. I have no idea. Um, but but I guess we all for feel that we are part of a whole and the whole is
00:29:05
the education sector in New Zealand and and we are there uh also to work hard for the education sector and collaborate
00:29:13
right across the board which I think is so important. You know, rising tides lift all ships and if there are great
00:29:19
stories and you know all my colleagues in the state sector are doing a fantastic job and sometimes you see
00:29:26
schools overly criticized uh when you know they are dealing with some of the biggest and hardest uh socioeconomic
00:29:34
issues to manage in their communities. uh and you know supporting everyone uh through a great education is what we
00:29:42
should be aspiring to rather than knocking down you know the the pillars that hold up the education system and
00:29:50
I'm not saying private schools are the pillars we're just one part of a very
00:29:54
good quality system and we need to talk up what we do here we we do some great things in education and change people's
00:30:02
lives >> cuz it's not cheap is it around 30 grand a year to go to Dier.
00:30:08
>> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But and you you gave me a tour of the
00:30:12
facilities. Um you can see you can see where the money goes. It's like um yeah
00:30:15
it's a it's you know fantastic grounds you've got and fantastic facilities. But
00:30:20
um >> jeez not cheap for parents that have got like two or three kids. >> That's right. That's right.
00:30:25
>> How many how many daughters have you had from one family at at school? Is this
00:30:30
you know anyone with like three three daughters or four daughters? Oh my god. That's so much
00:30:36
>> it is um and you know some people for some people it's a commitment that they
00:30:42
make uh to to their daughters particularly which which I really admire people who want to uh provide you know a
00:30:51
a quality education for their daughters and they're willing to invest in it.
00:30:56
>> Yeah, that's what it is. It's it's an investment. But can you can you still
00:30:59
get a like a a really good education and outcome for your kids at a public school
00:31:03
where you don't have to pay fees like that? >> Yes, you can. Yeah. >> Uh and absolutely. I've been in one um
00:31:09
you know as principal at Pakaranga College. Uh the zone that we had included you know families who struggled
00:31:16
but also families who who were very high wealth families uh who who chose the school um because it was their zone. uh
00:31:25
and so that absolutely and I totally you know I've worked across both sectors
00:31:32
uh and also in an international school in Beijing and um have loved the quality of of those schools and what people can
00:31:40
achieve >> and I think educators often don't get recognized enough uh in terms of the
00:31:46
work they do and the lives they change makes a big difference. >> Yeah. You you you talked about some of
00:31:52
the obstacles that you've um faced recently like the COVID era and then the floods. Um the the phase we're in at the
00:31:58
moment is like a cost of living crisis. Has has that impacted Dio at all? >> Um yes it does. Uh it it impacts um
00:32:06
simply because of the extra cost and families who are paying um you know big mortgages to live in central city uh
00:32:14
have found that harder. uh our role we we're very lucky because you know role
00:32:20
is very important for our school because essentially that's what pays for everything. Um so we are cognizant of
00:32:27
the hardship on families and how that is. Uh it we take the decision- making very seriously around you know what we
00:32:35
do and how we go forward uh to make sure that we do try and stay as affordable as
00:32:41
possible. uh and you know that's it requires uh careful management obviously
00:32:47
those um facilities that we have uh have involved loans and we have to be in a good position to be able to pay that
00:32:54
back. Uh the role is as strong as it's ever been which is great and we as full
00:32:59
um through to uh 2027. Uh however we would expect that some of those families may drop off as a result of you know the
00:33:08
challenges that they face. >> Yeah. How what what is the role? >> Uh 1734 students go go to Dio from uh
00:33:17
foundation class through to year 13. >> The foundation is that what you were
00:33:20
talking about the three and a three year olds? Yes, that is so Yeah. What what are they doing at three? What is it?
00:33:24
It's like a like a crash. What is it? >> Well, uh >> do they wear uniforms?
00:33:29
>> Yes, they do. >> They they look very cute, Dominic, I'd have to say. And it is one of my most
00:33:37
favorite parts of the school. I go down there as a a little guest appearance and
00:33:41
read books and we play. Um, so uh New Zealand a few years ago was one of the first countries to put in place an early
00:33:50
childhood foundation curriculum and I love that. I think uh you know having an it it's um called Tariki uh and it's
00:34:00
wonderful. It's learning based around play and developing some of the traditions and rules and uh I guess um I
00:34:07
say rules but but you know it's really more about getting children used to uh
00:34:13
regular routines and knowing how to do things and how to hold a pencil and how to hold a book up all those basics. I
00:34:20
I'm a bit green on the uh early early learning area. Um but but Emma is our wonderful leader of the foundation uh
00:34:29
class and they they do the learning is immense and it makes a big difference going through into year 01 and two when
00:34:37
you see uh that the children are well prepared for school and and they obviously get out and about in the
00:34:43
community a lot too. Uh exploring different areas and uh and love they like to come up and try try out the
00:34:51
swivel chair in my office. What's been your proudest moment as a principal? >> Oh, yeah. I have lots of proudest
00:35:00
moments. Uh, and I think that's what makes it so hard to go >> is um, yeah, the the change or the
00:35:08
quality of change you can implement over time. Uh, and the people I see who have
00:35:12
come in and said, "Heather, this is what we need to do. You know, we need a fab
00:35:17
lab." Uh, that was uh, Shannon, a wonderful teacher we had. Uh we had we we then set about building a fab lab
00:35:26
with 3D printers. And >> what's a what's a fab lab? >> Well well it's about um design. So while
00:35:33
you can learn subjects, you've also got to be able to give kids uh creative freedom to design and make stuff. So we
00:35:42
uh we have a creative industries faculty and a fab lab. And the idea is that they
00:35:48
get a chance to engage in uh creative equipment that you know high-spec computers, design computers that they
00:35:54
will find in the workplace later on uh and be able to to make and use and create and uh it's fantastic. So, so
00:36:03
people like that who come in and you know we had a a young doctor a few years ago and um she was uh based up north and
00:36:12
she wrote me a letter and said you know I think Dio gave me a fantastic education but I didn't learn enough
00:36:20
about Martanga Mari and I didn't take tero so I went away unequipped with cultural needs and how to listen uh to
00:36:33
my patients about that. So um we we actioned that got a collection of people to have a discussion. Uh so we wrote our
00:36:43
own materanga mi program which is now compulsory through to year 10. uh and it's been fantastic mainly because we've
00:36:52
attracted new and young Marty teachers uh to the school. That's uh been a wonderful asset uh for us and also for
00:37:00
for training young mighty teachers as well. uh and and I've loved the uh the
00:37:06
difference that it makes when our girls understand cultural knowledge and of course we have um probably about 10%
00:37:14
young Mari women uh at DO plus a you know we we are very multicultural with about 50 other ethnicities and
00:37:23
nationalities. So, so for me, um, being able to hold up, I mean, Western knowledge comes from a lot of different
00:37:31
places. You know, we technically got it from the Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Europeans, all um have had
00:37:39
input. We call it western knowledge, but but actually uh all ethnicities around the world have knowledge as well. Uh,
00:37:46
and it's important that we understand and can step in other people's shoes
00:37:50
when we travel and become global. Uh, and I think that's such an important part of being a global person, a global
00:37:57
citizen. >> Yeah. >> Well, that that's interesting that you raised the um the um diversity piece
00:38:02
about the school because it must um you must find it really frustrating when Yeah. people critics would say it's like
00:38:08
it's a posh rich white school. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It isn't.
00:38:13
>> Yeah. And you know, it truly represents uh diversity in the school. It it is a
00:38:20
pleasure to be in. And I remember when I uh joined it having been in Beijing which was an international school. So we
00:38:27
had you know just a whole melting pot of different uh nationalities. Coming back
00:38:33
to Dio thinking yeah this is this is pretty much similar and of course as Oakland has diversified uh so so have we
00:38:43
uh and you know I often challenge people on that view. Yeah, it it it needs to, you know, people need to be aware of how
00:38:52
schools have changed over recent years and all of us in Oakuckland uh reflect um diversity.
00:38:59
>> Um what about some of the toughest days or toughest occasions on the job? You've
00:39:05
been been in the role for 17 years. Um have have you um had a student or students over that time that have taken
00:39:11
their own life >> and how do you deal with that as a principal? I think and people have often
00:39:16
asked what would be the worst day for you. That would be the worst day for me. Uh and um
00:39:22
>> that's happened. >> No, it hasn't. Um but but you know that's not to say
00:39:29
anything that it can't. Uh and I think having an awareness that it could happen
00:39:34
at any school at any time uh to any principal and uh I often drop notes to people you know especially because I
00:39:42
think that as a principal that is the hardest thing to have. We we did have uh a circumstance at Pakaranga College a
00:39:50
few years ago which uh was a former student further down the track who had uh taken their life and I remember our
00:39:57
counselor at Pakaranga College then spoke to young people and said you know this is not a great idea guys look how
00:40:04
it's making you feel don't ever forget uh that you know how you are feeling as
00:40:10
a result of that because that's what you leave behind if you think this is a
00:40:14
great idea Um so you know I thought he was very brave um to to speak that way and it is something you know that would
00:40:23
would be my one of my hardest days but I have been fortunate uh so far >> that's it's incredible really isn't it
00:40:32
>> that you haven't had to deal with that it's wonderful >> it it is it is because it's it's just
00:40:38
the saddest thing um you know we New Zealand has been uh typically u much higher in you know taking your own life
00:40:47
rates compared to other countries. So it's something we need to be aware of and and you know be able to encourage
00:40:54
young people to talk about you know what lies within and how to you know to deal
00:41:00
with these things. uh the the journalist Jan Cassinada, I don't know if he he
00:41:06
spoke at a conference uh that that I went to recently and a very impactful speaker uh and you know talked about the
00:41:14
impact on him and how he uh how he did all the things that you're told to do,
00:41:21
you know, but but he still suffered from depression and and had a really difficult time and the only way to deal
00:41:29
with it um was a a very good friend of his who turned up and didn't go away and
00:41:34
kept persisting uh to be alongside of him and you know those are the things that make a difference.
00:41:41
>> Yeah. But you know it it's such a complex thing uh but but it's something
00:41:46
you know we should all care about deeply in our country is how to look after the
00:41:51
welfare and well-being of uh th those young people coming through and how we uh you know how we look after them in
00:41:58
that space. >> Oh 100%. the fact that you haven't had to deal with it in 17 years. Maybe that
00:42:03
says more about um you know, young women in New Zealand being better at talking about this stuff than than young men
00:42:08
are. >> Yes, it could be. >> Yes, I'm not sure. I I'd be interested
00:42:14
in seeing, you know, the patterns over time. Um but but I do think uh you know, in all girls environment, certainly uh
00:42:22
girls do talk about things a lot more. um there's a lot more social media interaction and certainly the research
00:42:29
shows that you know girls far often more often engage in uh risky social media behaviors. So so there is something
00:42:38
there for young women that we we mustn't take our eyes off. >> Uh but >> what do you mean more risky social media
00:42:44
behavior? >> Uh well you know befriending someone online that they don't know. Okay. uh
00:42:49
and then agreeing to meet them and you know who they think is a 13year-old girl is actually a 35year-old male pedophile.
00:42:58
>> Uh so so there's you know that's risky behavior. uh exploring um pornography uh
00:43:05
and you know the the the way in which women are uh portrayed on pornography uh it is seriously giving young men a a an
00:43:19
uninformed view of what a relationship looks like. Um, and I think that's a worry. And I think our male school
00:43:26
principles are very aware of this and and doing some great work uh with young men to help them understand what quality
00:43:33
relationships are and that you don't find it on uh pornographic websites. >> As I mentioned, I said on Instagram,
00:43:42
you're coming in. I've got so many so many questions for you. Um mainly with
00:43:46
insights that you've um got about um you know, teenage girls in New Zealand. If
00:43:51
you had to describe teenage girls in one word today, what would it be? >> Adaptable.
00:43:59
>> Yeah. I see a group of young women coming through who are now savvy as they
00:44:06
come through with uh technologies that they have in their hands. And uh they are more savvy about how they let it
00:44:14
impose on their lives. uh and better much better at making decisions than five years ago uh and 10 years ago uh
00:44:24
because I think there's more information about it Dom and there's more awareness
00:44:28
of parents around you know how to use their digital devices safely and effectively and I think we as
00:44:38
communities still have a very strong influence in making sure that we put those protection measures in case. I
00:44:46
mean AI is another uh potentially impending storm for young people. Uh and it is important for us uh to ensure that
00:44:55
we protect knowledge and we know that it is their knowledge and not knowledge that they have simply extracted uh from
00:45:04
uh digital sources. So so you know we have to be aware all the time I think of their impact. Hearing their voices is
00:45:11
one of the most important things. uh and making sure that we uh explore with them
00:45:18
how it is what is life like for them as they're coming through. But but I see
00:45:22
them being more adaptable and and capable of of dealing with these changes in a pretty effective way.
00:45:30
>> Yeah, I think they're great. >> I if I if I was at school today, I'd
00:45:34
definitely be leaning heavily into chat GPT. >> It' be it'd be doing the Yeah. most of
00:45:41
my assignments. >> Yeah. Well, it's pretty interesting um because some of the research uh that's
00:45:47
been done in the UK uh they have uh so this happened at universities and uh so most of the um professors you know were
00:45:55
marking papers and they said they could tell you know what was generated on chat
00:46:00
GPT and what wasn't. Uh so the re researchers put them to the test and gave them uh 115 papers uh to to mark.
00:46:11
So essentially some of them were uh chat GPT answers and some and and they were handwritten out to make it look like you
00:46:19
know a student had written them and they were mixed up with all the papers. Uh what what do you think happened?
00:46:27
>> I don't know. I don't know. Tell me. >> Okay. So uh what happened was very few
00:46:33
of the chat GPTs in fact I think it was 112 out of 115 uh papers were not picked up uh as being
00:46:44
chat GP generated. Um but the other issue that we have to face is that they identified uh human answers. they
00:46:55
identified many more human answers as being chat GPT than the chat GPT papers. So um it just shows that uh as humans we
00:47:06
can't distinguish a difference and I think this is why we need to go back to
00:47:11
a more examinedbased system of qualifications which of course uh this government announced you know a a couple
00:47:18
of um weeks ago and I think these are really good changes because uh you know the view over there is that there might
00:47:26
be a scandal in a few years because people have managed to get their degrees using AI and there's been no you know
00:47:32
protection against that. Uh so we may have people out there uh who have postco um you know got their qualifications by
00:47:42
using uh AI. So so so we need to probably reook at that and ensure that we reinforce the education system with
00:47:50
ways of uh making sure that genuine knowledge is being acquired and how do we know that? Yeah.
00:47:58
>> Yeah. It's a scary time isn't it? It really is. What's the biggest
00:48:01
misconception people have about teenage girls today? >> Yes, that's that's fairly broad because
00:48:10
I think it varies on who they are, what their role is, and >> uh I I would say u most of our staff.
00:48:19
The the common misconception I think about adolescents is that they're politically unaware. Um
00:48:26
that they are naive to many things. Um but actually I think they aren't they
00:48:33
are very aware um politically aware as well uh and uh they have a voice and the vast majority that I see uh we should be
00:48:43
very proud as a country of the young people we are seeing come out of our education system and I mean right across
00:48:49
the board >> um by and large they are astounding young people and when I look at uh you
00:48:56
know when I go to prize giving and things it's not unusual for a parent to walk out and say, you know, I I feel
00:49:03
very inadequate after hearing what our young people achieve these days. >> They are fantastic. They are engaged. Uh
00:49:12
they take on a lot. They love um participating. Uh they have a voice and uh I have the utmost respect for them. I
00:49:20
think we are very fortunate with our young people today. >> God, you're like a proud mom, aren't
00:49:26
you? >> I am. I am. And look, I've even put the dog to sleep. >> Can you hear him snoring before?
00:49:34
>> He snores quite loudly. If if you could give um one piece of advice to every
00:49:38
young woman in New Zealand today, what would it be? >> It's another broad one.
00:49:42
>> Yes. Don't ever give away the freedom and rights that uh that women in past
00:49:48
years have enabled uh for you. Uh I we was fortunate I went to a course at Walton last year in um uh Philadelphia
00:49:59
uh so the Walton Business School and it was fascinating because the vast majority of uh the course were American
00:50:07
women. Uh and they talked about how they have fewer rights than their grandmothers had in America.
00:50:13
>> And I kind of questioned, you know, what how did that happen and why has it
00:50:19
happened? Uh, and you know, I would think I would like to think that we'd be, this is where the word stroppy comes
00:50:26
in. We would get very stroppy about things like that where our rights as women are undermined uh or or taken
00:50:35
away. I think that would be my advice to young women is to always be aware of uh
00:50:42
your rights as a woman uh and why it's important that you you always maintain
00:50:48
those and look at uh equity and e equality because you don't get equality necessarily by treating everyone equally
00:50:57
>> and those are important points I mean if you educate a woman for one year one
00:51:04
further year in other parts of the world, you can change a whole population growth of a country. You know that's the
00:51:10
power of educating women and um you know that would be my advice to them. Get educated always stand up for your
00:51:17
rights. >> Yeah. Yeah. Be defiant. Challenge things. >> Yes. You must if you don't believe in
00:51:23
them. >> Yeah. In in your view uh what are the most important life skill skills schools
00:51:28
should be teaching girls alongside academics? Well, we had this interesting question a few years ago. You know, do
00:51:36
subjects create amazing people or do knowledgeable people sometimes do dumb things because they have knowledge but
00:51:45
they don't have values or there's you know that they can be dodgy ethically
00:51:50
around things. And you know, the first global financial crisis that we had back in the early 2000s uh was because there
00:51:59
were smart people loaning more money than people could own. And so there was going to be a tipping point somewhere
00:52:06
that that triggered, you know, the global financial crisis that that went right around the world.
00:52:12
>> So we had some discussions after that. And um there were a few things that we
00:52:16
came up with as a school that we thought were needed. Um, one was ethics. You know, how do how does kids just because
00:52:25
they know stuff, does that make them, you know, ethical young people with values that, you know, that are that are
00:52:32
um that are important to have like honesty and trust and integrity. >> Uh, and so we uh developed our own uh
00:52:40
ethics program that we run. So Dame Sha Elias is uh the patron of our ethics center. Um because ethics are the basis
00:52:49
of law. That's how societies create law. And for me though that was really important to understand because you know
00:52:57
whenever you're engaging with honesty and integrity that you know that that's
00:53:03
the basis of how you build your law to create fairness and um and a just society. So, so that kind of level of uh
00:53:12
justice and what that might look like encouraged us to build that program, you know, within a compulsory part of uh our
00:53:20
curriculum. >> The there's also, you know, we are an Anglican school and the part about being
00:53:27
an Anglican that I think is lovely is that you accept all people all the time for who they are regardless. uh and I
00:53:35
think that's so important that that should be a starting point of all people's relationships you know that uh
00:53:42
and it's important underpinning of our school uh all people who come to us are
00:53:48
um respected and in our workplace we must honor that as well um so while I'm
00:53:55
the principal I appreciate uh everyone in our school for the role we couldn't
00:54:01
do it without them all >> um and for me that level of modeling what we say we believe in and what we do
00:54:08
is really important. Uh and you know it was about moving from a bureaucracy into
00:54:14
a much more collaborative environment uh where people come can rock up to your office and tell you what you need as a
00:54:22
school to to change and go forward. And you know that's how you build a learning
00:54:26
organization when you're able to capture the knowledge of everyone in your organization. And that means everyone
00:54:33
regardless of uh the roles that they play because they all have far more uh you know capacity that than I as an
00:54:41
individual have uh and I've loved that. So so building that into your school
00:54:46
culture I think for me has been so important. you know the people who are you as a person uh and you know the fact
00:54:54
that every person has a spiritual center um you know in some year in past years I
00:55:02
think we've all become a bit devoid of that and we don't acknowledge uh that we
00:55:06
have an inner self that we should know really well and understand who we are as people the values you know what will we
00:55:14
stand up for uh and protect and you know what what will we say should never happen again in this world? you know,
00:55:23
there there's a lot and um having been raised in Pier on the farm between Payetto and Ekatuna, you know, we had
00:55:32
Polish refugees from World War I um and survivors really of um families and learning about that as a child had a
00:55:40
powerful um message for me about you know people and you know how to ensure that we have a peaceful world not an
00:55:48
aggressive world. H >> what do you wish parents understood better about their teenage daughters?
00:55:55
>> Oh, good question. Um I think >> I'd like to claim it, but that's from
00:56:00
someone on Instagram, >> right? Yeah. Um I think I would like um families to see their
00:56:12
daughters uh as as worthy an investment as their male counterparts in a family. uh and to ensure that there is equity
00:56:21
within families uh in uh all ethnicities. That's not always the case. Um but certainly we we would uh promote
00:56:30
that as a school. Uh in terms of uh their young women, I think uh message for all women out there is to never tell
00:56:41
your daughter that she can't do maths. You know, I I believe anybody can do maths. Even you don't. Oh, no, no, no. I
00:56:49
was going to say I nearly got you over the >> line and encourage them into their areas of
00:56:55
interest, you know, rather than have a set view on what what they should be achieving. Um, I think uh it's important
00:57:03
to acknowledge uh them as young women in the world uh and uh to accord them the the level of equity they would every
00:57:14
other family member and and to encourage them especially to look at those subjects that they may not have achieved
00:57:23
in. And you know many uh uh women out there probably were overwhelmed with maths uh at at school and boys typically
00:57:33
have slightly different brain development that I believe uh it it gives them more spatial ability uh
00:57:41
before girls get to that. So often they don't see themselves as being successful
00:57:47
in mathematics. Every young woman in New Zealand can do maths and it's about
00:57:52
switching on that u passion for it in science subjects as well. And of course I'm obviously they're my passions. Um
00:58:00
but but you know when when I graduated the number of women to men was far you know it was two to 30.
00:58:08
>> Uh and you know it has changed over time which I love to see. Um and and I think
00:58:15
helping her to understand that she doesn't need to settle for second best. You know,
00:58:22
>> all women should have the right to achieve what they want to in the world
00:58:26
and be encouraged by their parents to do that. And that's what I would love >> parents uh to see in their daughters.
00:58:35
>> I never realized there was a um it it was a thing that girls couldn't do
00:58:39
maths. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Really? >> Yeah. Good on you. It's an actual
00:58:43
>> you keep it up. >> Wow. Um, are there are there warning signs parents should uh watch for that
00:58:50
might suggest a teenage girl is struggling mentally but not speaking up? >> Yeah. Yes, there are signs. Um, being
00:58:57
withdrawn >> um wanting to spend lots of time in bedrooms on their own. Uh, keeping
00:59:05
phones at night. I think it it's really important to take digital devices off
00:59:11
students at night and to make sure that that's managed in families. I really
00:59:16
think you know young people need their sleep, girls and boys. Uh and it's really important but digital devices and
00:59:24
I know I don't know if you've played computer games from time to time. I have
00:59:28
and I can you know they are actually quite addictive. Um, so that would be one thing that the girls don't know that
00:59:34
I often play computer, you know, it's majong and a few other things. Um, >> not playing Call of Duty or
00:59:42
>> No, but um colored bottles, you know, with with mental games where you have to
00:59:47
work out um those sort of things. Uh but I do it to unwind. uh and it's just a
00:59:52
way of um switching off for a wee while uh but but you know to to protect that space I think um young people need our
01:00:03
guidance as as they come through around uh how to make sure they get good sleep they form strong relationships uh the
01:00:12
patterns I see are often um suddenly ch sudden changes in behavior uh where you one minute your daughter's a happy child
01:00:25
running off to school. Um not wanting to go to school. Uh >> not wanting to um to sit around the
01:00:33
family t table and and enjoy space with each other. Uh and certainly spending too much time on um digital devices is
01:00:42
usually a sign that their mental state is going somewhere else and not centered on themselves. And I think those are the
01:00:51
usually the indicators. It would say uh a a good sit down in a in a discussion is needed to find out what might be
01:00:58
driving that. It might be nothing. >> Um but but it also might be that they're
01:01:03
just finding it difficult to cope with hor hormonal changes as well. >> Yeah.
01:01:08
>> Yeah. I suppose as a parent you got to be hypervigilant because you could just
01:01:10
write it off to be like a puberty thing or something else but it might be something deeper. Yeah.
01:01:15
>> Um, is there a book or resource that you'd recommend to every parent of a
01:01:19
teenage girl? >> Yes. Uh, it's a resource netafe I would definitely uh recommend because it gives
01:01:26
really great parental advice and it's for boys and girls. Uh, I think that's
01:01:32
um, you know, it's important to uh, to use whatever you can to find out you know, what symptoms might look like with
01:01:40
regard to overuse of um, social media. Uh I think reading in general is great for boys and girls. Uh so no particular
01:01:50
um aspect of that but but in Oakland especially you know there are heaps of uh parent advice centers which I think
01:01:59
are fantastic that that can provide parents you know with that much needed advice and net safe has an 0800 number
01:02:07
as well which is always available. Uh and certainly uh do go and talk to your school about it. Uh because you you know
01:02:16
we see their uh daughters for an extended period of time during the day uh and can talk to parents about how we
01:02:24
provide that consistent care and support and you know it is something that is so
01:02:30
important because we now know have no boundaries between school and home. You know we are one and the same from the
01:02:37
point of view that you know social media and digital is just so ubiquitous. Uh and we need to have a collective uh view
01:02:46
on it so that we can support each other through those changing times. >> Gez phones have come up a lot in this
01:02:51
conversation, haven't they? >> Yeah. Yeah, they have. >> Yeah. It's it's a real worry. It's
01:02:56
almost like a a social experiment and no one knows what the outcome's going to
01:02:59
be. >> That's so true. >> Yeah. For all of us as well. >> Yes. And you know preparedness,
01:03:05
continual communication is really key to help our parents so that you know they can feel more confident in calling it
01:03:13
and saying you know that's not happening. I mean kids are incredibly um resourceful. We have uh controls on all
01:03:22
of our system but but our people are always our IT people are always working um on identifying those who have found a
01:03:30
workaround. Uh >> oh. >> Have you got like a a cell phone blocker or something?
01:03:34
>> Yes. All right. >> Yes. But but they override it somehow. the there are you know access to
01:03:42
different websites and we've got you know uh a huge number blocked and and in
01:03:47
terms of our AI we are using play lab which is a American designed educational tool so uh it it's contained and all the
01:03:57
information in it is valid uh and reliable information so you're not going to get kids writing um or sourcing
01:04:05
material that is um that is misinformation information. >> Yeah. >> What are the most common things girls
01:04:12
come to you worried about? >> Well, maybe not not specifically you, maybe your like your guidance counselor
01:04:19
or >> Yes. >> or the other what what sort of reports do other teachers come to you with?
01:04:23
>> Yes. Usually relationships. >> Yeah. >> Um whether they be with girls or or or
01:04:29
others outside. Um yeah, relationship issues typically are fairly common. Um in terms of uh you know and this is
01:04:39
where social media comes into play. Um I guess you know this gets back to you know some of the misconceptions around
01:04:48
um you know what people might think about girls schools. Uh I can assure people that having been in a co-ed uh
01:04:58
secondary school as well in New Zealand that there's just as much goes on between the girls and boys there as it
01:05:05
does in an all girls school. So you know you often hear oh well they're more
01:05:09
catty or or you know >> kitty's the word I want to I want are you wanting to get out there? Um they're
01:05:15
not you know and you know that's not the case. Uh you'll see it across any
01:05:21
school. uh where you get the same interactions, there's actually no difference.
01:05:27
>> Um and you know there's a view that in a boy's you know in a co-ed school that
01:05:32
you know the boys have a moderating factor. Um well they have lots of other factors as well. uh but but that's uh
01:05:39
not one of them that I've observed and it is you know usually relationships when you're a growing teen uh actually
01:05:47
it's about your self-image and uh if you uh talk to students about how they see
01:05:53
themselves those things usually pop out you know I don't feel good enough I'm
01:05:58
not academic enough you know I'm I'm not bright and sometimes you know that they
01:06:04
are they have this image that is not actually who they are. Uh and you know our role is to help them deal with that
01:06:12
and to build self-confidence in in themselves because that gives them the strength to be confident and to address
01:06:20
you know healthy relationships which should always have good conversation and it should always be about uh helping the
01:06:28
other person's um you know how they see themselves rather than the put down and
01:06:34
you know the tall poppy stuff you talked about before. So it is really important
01:06:38
that we that we help with those relationships and build healthy relationships and the ability to look at
01:06:45
what healthy relationships are. Um and you know we we run a special program looking at controlling relationships.
01:06:55
So, uh, that girls learn, you know, what that looks like and why, uh, it's not a
01:07:01
healthy, uh, a healthy way to build a relationship with another person. >> Do you have a do you have a view on, um,
01:07:09
what's better, single sex schools or mixed schools? >> I do. Um, having I probably had a view
01:07:16
prior to working at Dio and and it's a different view that I have now. Um, I
01:07:22
never went through a single sex school. I always went to a co-ed school, always taught in co-educational schools. So, DA
01:07:30
was the first all girls school that I went to. Um, and I thought, well, this would be interesting uh and different,
01:07:40
but as you can tell by the number of years I've been part of it, I've loved
01:07:44
it. M >> uh and I see a huge benefit and and I'm pretty sure that my male school uh
01:07:52
principal counterparts would say the same uh that there are um you know there are opportunities girls get in all girls
01:08:00
schools that they don't get in all boys schools. They fulfill all the leadership
01:08:05
positions. They're there doing the speaking. They're there leading the rock
01:08:09
band. You know they are there leading all sports. uh and what they demonstrate to each other I think is gold. uh and
01:08:19
you know I have to say uh that I've become a convert uh completely I think uh you know the move away uh in some
01:08:29
countries that I see uh from single sex schools well you know it's a choice that
01:08:34
parents can make but I certainly see the benefits uh of uh young women being inspired by other young women uh to grow
01:08:42
be confident and to show what's possible. I've loved it. Yeah, I can I can tell I can tell you
01:08:49
love it. You're so so passionate about it. God, you're going to miss it, aren't
01:08:51
you? >> I am. >> And um peer pressure for teenage girls, is it is it is it better or worse than
01:08:57
what it was say 17 years ago when you started? >> I think it's no different.
01:09:01
>> I think it's better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Than than it ever used to be. Um
01:09:06
because there's >> because of diversity in many ways. Uh I think it's important that uh people can
01:09:15
and have the view that they can be who they are >> uh and express that and you know I I
01:09:21
like to see that and I see uh young women far less worried about their body image than than my generation of women.
01:09:30
And I think that's great. >> Yeah. When a girl is struggling, whether it's with body image, confidence, or
01:09:37
friendships, uh what do you think she needs to hear most from an adult? >> Yeah, she um needs to hear uh how she is
01:09:48
or how she looks from another adult because how she feels sometimes is right out of line uh wi with actually how how
01:09:56
she looks. And that's the kind of secret uh imposttor syndrome uh that you hear
01:10:03
women talk about where they end up in roles uh where they're not sure that they actually fulfill it. And it is true
01:10:09
that women will look at a job description and work out what she can't do rather than what she all the things
01:10:16
she can do. Uh whereas a male will go ahead and apply anyway. um you know th those things I've seen
01:10:23
that you know when people line up for positions of responsibility and in applications for roles at DIO um so yeah
01:10:32
I think what she needs to hear from an adult uh that they care about her uh that that no matter who she is you know
01:10:41
she can be loved and I think those are really important aspects of building her confidence
01:10:46
>> uh and feeling that she is worthy of a voice and a contribution uh to the world
01:10:52
around her and that leadership resides in everyone. It's not just about um you
01:10:58
you know being the best sports person or the best uh you know wearing the most uh
01:11:04
up to-ate clothes or however that's judged nowadays. >> Um I I think you know leadership can
01:11:12
come from very quiet quarters uh from from women who have a lot to offer. it's
01:11:18
not necessarily always in the I want to be out the front uh kind of look. And I think hearing that from an adult so that
01:11:26
a per that woman young woman can value uh what she does have within her uh and that she can see the potential those are
01:11:34
really important things to hear. >> Yes. Since what what you're talking
01:11:38
about is like confidence and self-esteem. How how do you how do you boost that in people? M
01:11:45
that requires more than just learning a subject and that's where I think it gets
01:11:50
to the culture of your school and how you um grow young women within it and how they feel valued and a part of the
01:11:58
community. >> Um so so within schools it is really important that that is addressed uh
01:12:05
because you can't just learn subjects and expect to come out as a whole person. Um so you know there's lots of
01:12:12
aspects of that um particularly around you know the spiritual self the you know wa and the you know the personal
01:12:20
well-being um which does come through some subject areas but but it's an important part of building you know
01:12:28
within the pastoral care of the school as well >> uh and having purposeful programs uh
01:12:35
that help young women um to discover who they Uh I also think you ex expose the students to absolutely as many
01:12:45
opportunities as you can to sport and the arts. Uh because those co-curricular activities, you know, sport as as you
01:12:54
you would know, Dom, uh you you learn to become part of a team. The team can't
01:12:59
work if you're not there. Uh if you win, it's great, but if you lose, which you
01:13:05
often do more than you win, uh you have to learn to cope with those ups and downs of life. And and it's about
01:13:11
building resilience through activities and actions and experiences. Uh you can do it, you know, through well-being
01:13:20
programs uh as well, which have become part of many schools. uh but but actually actions and experiences as they
01:13:28
come through are really important to provide and particularly I'm I'm a sports fan myself and I saw the benefits
01:13:35
of what that was like growing up learning to win to lose to be humble to others and and support uh participation
01:13:44
uh but but also acknowledge you know high quality elite performances none of none of which I seemed to be invol for
01:13:52
back at school but um Hey, you know, those are the things you learn along the way, you know, and building resilience
01:13:59
today is so important to be adaptable and to know how to deal with the relationship issues and, you know,
01:14:06
growing your sense of self-esteem as part of that. They are all really important aspects of what we can do.
01:14:14
>> Are teenage girls generally quite resilient, do you think? I think to some
01:14:19
extent I feel that they're more so than they might have been 10 years ago when
01:14:24
all of this um you know sort of major change of social media washed through through communities. Yeah, I I think
01:14:32
they are and um you know certainly the ones I see uh you know I feel very proud of because I do think the you know by
01:14:41
and large uh the vast majority are really confident young women and I'm proud of that.
01:14:50
>> What do you think teenage girls secretly wish their parents understood about
01:14:53
them? >> Yes. I um I think they like to they like their parents to know that they are that
01:15:05
they can be relied on more I think rather than um you know and can be can learn to make their own decisions
01:15:14
but but again there's got to be some good guidance around there around that.
01:15:19
Yeah, I think >> some more responsibility or >> I I think so. You know, we talk about
01:15:24
the voting age in New Zealand quite a bit. Um, and yeah, I mean the there are there are also dangers in social media
01:15:34
that we're aware of that can influence young minds and you saw an example of
01:15:39
that in the states where people get radicalized >> um online and you know that that worries
01:15:46
me enormously um because you know what were the guiding you know what were the reasons for that and and I would suspect
01:15:55
there's a hole in that person's life that was never filled with love and
01:15:59
>> um perhaps kindness and you know the values that we want young people to
01:16:05
develop and have uh in terms of how they see the world. Yeah. So, so those things
01:16:12
do worry me enormously around um you know what parents and young people know and you know that um amazing program
01:16:21
Adolescence showed when you know parents you know he thought he was keeping his son safe by giving him a you know
01:16:29
computer in his room and so he wouldn't go out. Um but you know he developed
01:16:35
particular views that weren't uh healthy in his upbringing. M yeah and it's hard
01:16:41
I think but but I think parents you know the talking the human the human time that you give uh a young adult uh can
01:16:52
never be underestimated in terms of its value. You know the parent involvement, engagement and love
01:17:00
of their child still is the most amazing and profound influence on a young person's growth and self-esteem.
01:17:08
>> Yeah. And I don't think that's new. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:17:12
>> Um yeah, you mentioned uh the Netflix show Adolescence, which um >> there's um a thread in there about um
01:17:18
Andrew Tate and the negative impact uh his voice has had on particularly on young men.
01:17:23
>> Um yeah, what what about for girls in terms of influences and um like negative
01:17:28
role models online? >> Like what sort of what sort of role have oh god, I don't know like the K
01:17:32
Kardashians come to mind like people like that. What what sort of role do they have on uh on young women?
01:17:38
Uh certainly there is an influence still that comes through around body image and
01:17:46
beauty products and you know certainly when even when I'm playing my we insignificant computer games you know I
01:17:54
get targeted with stuff uh and obviously they can tell my age because it's always
01:18:00
about you know getting fit for the over 60 year old so I'll go oh right okay
01:18:06
surely Not. But yes, >> no, no one under 60 is playing mahong >> and wrinkle creams and everything else.
01:18:15
Uh and also um bee venom and you know how you can make yourself look 20 years younger and I think oh yeah okay. Um so
01:18:24
you know that we're all getting bombarded with that but particularly during teenage years yes there is that.
01:18:31
Um but I think then it gets back to the family you know the role of the family and the role of us in schools too is to
01:18:40
you know uh I guess give people a healthy experience of what uh you know what's important in life
01:18:49
>> and you know how to build those relationships with each other that are going to be meaningful uh and support be
01:18:57
supportive you know rather than critical uh- which is a typical behavior of some
01:19:03
of the online chat groups and what have you um you know whether they'll exclude
01:19:07
someone um and exclude them from a group and that kind of exclus exclusion we recognize now as you know tantamount
01:19:16
really to a to bullying behaviors. Um and you know uh while bullying kind of took over for a while in and almost
01:19:26
everything like pushing over accidentally at lunchtime was a bullying issue you know we have defined those now
01:19:33
with our community much more clearly so that people understand you know that it's deliberate over a long period of
01:19:39
time that you know it's um it's set out to undermine you know the other person.
01:19:45
Uh so so those definitions now are more clearly understood. Um yeah so so a lot does impact on those on role models that
01:19:54
are online. Uh and of course the extreme versions of those like the Kardashians and and um the male uh you know uh e
01:20:03
egotistical male who doesn't you know believe in um you know women's rights or
01:20:09
anything uh like that. So, so it is a more complex world and I think it's because you know the fringes now um and
01:20:17
the radical areas of fringes now have much more voice than they perhaps had in past years.
01:20:23
>> Um and it was harder to develop a following of these sorts of things than
01:20:27
it is online. Now you can get a following for almost anything anywhere in the world any time
01:20:33
>> and you know those are challenges that we all need to take seriously as parents
01:20:37
and educators uh and monitor especially online behaviors and um put in place rigorous controls and that's why I
01:20:47
recommended NetSafe because I do think they give great advice. M >> so we're recording this in the uh final
01:20:54
quarter of 2025. Then you've got a summer break and then you're back for um
01:20:59
your final term. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, 17 years in the job as principal of DIO. Um let's talk legacy.
01:21:09
How do you want to be remembered by the DIO community and by the girls who the girls whose lives you've helped shape?
01:21:16
Yeah, I guess it gets back to um you know, my dad's saying, leave it in a better place. And I hope it is. Uh and
01:21:25
yeah, I I hope that um you know, um I I guess too that one of the most important
01:21:32
things I think in today's world is ensuring that the school itself is adaptable as an organization. So, so
01:21:41
that it can look at what's out there. you know, we're not afraid to have these
01:21:45
open discussions uh with our parents and with with our staff members. We have 293
01:21:51
staff. So, you know, you get a really good cross-section of views around, you know, what what we can do, what needs to
01:21:58
happen, and how can we do it our way. And um so over the years that's become a
01:22:05
regular and norm pattern now of of being responsive, receptive and adaptable uh to providing an education that in effect
01:22:14
is for the future. So, so for me, I hope that's the legacy uh that that that
01:22:20
we've left uh that the school will continue to grow, develop, and adapt and uh provide women with the education they
01:22:28
need for the future they they will step into. >> Yeah, it would that's my hope, Dom,
01:22:34
anyway. And uh you know, it's been an absolute blast. >> That's a huge It's a huge contribution.
01:22:41
What um what are your students called? Are they are they called old girls? Well, we changed the name.
01:22:46
>> I was gonna say, yeah, because if you go to a boy's school, you're called an old
01:22:49
boy. But old girl sounds kind of, I don't know, offensive. >> Well, we we changed two names. The girls
01:22:55
that came right through the school were called Survivors. So, I changed that name to Champ Dio Champions. Um,
01:23:03
>> it wasn't really Survivors. >> I thought Survivors was giving the wrong
01:23:08
um kind of impression. and and so we quietly changed it to Dio Champions and uh the uh the DI World
01:23:17
Girls of course spells dogs. Uh so so that was another >> not a great acronym
01:23:24
>> another challenge. Um so a wonderful woman who was chair of uh the the Dio
01:23:31
Old Girls Association changed the name Jenny Spelleain. he's now our board chair and uh they uh changed the name to
01:23:40
Diosis and Alumna Association, the DAA. So um you know that sounds far more official uh than than the dogs. Uh but
01:23:48
but it is lovely. I mean there there are because the school has longevity uh in Oakland from 1903 then you know there
01:23:56
are probably 12 to 15,000 D world girls all around the world >> and um some of them are well the vast
01:24:04
majority of them are exceptional women >> so when when um dogs come up to you like
01:24:11
like in public when you're at the mall or at the grocery store you what's what
01:24:14
sort of feedback do you get what do they say? >> Well usually there's a hello Mrs. Great.
01:24:19
I hear from a long way away and I get a hug which is always lovely. Yeah. So, so
01:24:25
they are great young people. Uh last year when I was on sobatical I was uh in Zurich uh and had popped out for a
01:24:34
moment's shopping uh to have a bit of a break and went into a store and heard
01:24:40
that hello Mrs. McCrae was just lovely and it was a former student. We had a hug, a photo and a catch up. Um, and
01:24:48
she's working for a a finance uh industry organization in in Sweden and in Switzerland rather, sorry. And uh it
01:24:57
it's just lovely the you know to run into young women and to find out where they've got to, where they've gone in
01:25:04
their lives. Every year we celebrate uh girls who are under 30 but are very high
01:25:10
achievers uh called the women to watch awards and that's just been phenomenal
01:25:16
picking up women who are doing uh exceptional things in the world uh all start either starting new businesses
01:25:24
some of them are um you know making contributions uh to uh to services uh some of them are you know lawyers or
01:25:35
judges in other parts of the world. Um, and to hear the range of things. One woman that we're going to be celebrating
01:25:43
soon is a first lieutenant in the New Zealand Army. And uh, so she has graduated top of her course and is now a
01:25:53
squadron leader uh, for her her people. And I think it's lovely the whole range
01:25:59
of experiences that that women can get engaged in these days. And um we promote that with the girls by celebrating these
01:26:07
women who are in our community. It's fantastic. I'm inspired every time I
01:26:11
hear their stories. >> That's so cool. Uh when I had your male counterpart Tim Oconor from Oakland
01:26:17
Grammar on the podcast, he he told a story about um sometimes you car loads of kids, students or former students
01:26:24
will go past and they they'll yell out, "Fuck you, sir." And uh sorry for my
01:26:29
language. and and he he he he said, "Yeah, they're abusing me." But also
01:26:33
they they end with sir, which um you know, which is some messages sunk through. Yeah. Do you get any um Yeah.
01:26:39
defective Yeah. female students, past or present, abuse you ever? >> Uh would it? Not yet.
01:26:46
>> No. And not yet. But I have had uh women uh older women who have emailed and
01:26:54
said, you know, they didn't always enjoy en enjoy their time at diet and you
01:26:57
know, they felt isolated or they were very homesick while they were there. Um you know, and I do think in past years
01:27:06
when the school may have had perhaps a a very formal uh sort of approach to education, it didn't suit everybody. And
01:27:13
I think schools in general have become more adaptable to that to try and make a place uh you know a a a place where
01:27:22
everybody can feel comfortable and welcome and connected and that's the challenge we all face as educators
01:27:28
>> uh is who who are we what what do we want the most for our students and how
01:27:33
can we help them um to love life and achieve uh within it and feel confident to to do that. So, so no you
01:27:42
principal stories. >> Touch wood. Touch wood. >> But I've had some great feedback about,
01:27:48
you know, like the uh doctor who felt unprepared for uh for deal working in a Marty community. How important is that
01:27:57
when you're a lawyer or or a doctor or anywhere else in the uh in service in
01:28:03
New Zealand that you think about, you know, what you uh need to do to step in the shoes of others and understand their
01:28:10
wants and needs and um you know, for me that that's that's been a a great
01:28:14
pleasure to see us work in that space uh a lot more. >> Yeah. So, term two next year, um, you
01:28:23
you wake up and you no longer have to go to the Stuart job that you've had for
01:28:26
the last 17 years. >> How's how's that going to be? It's going
01:28:30
to feel strange, but is it going to be exciting or is it going to feel a little empty?
01:28:35
>> I'm hoping to fill it up, uh, Dom, with a lot of things. Number one is I'd like
01:28:40
a more regular running cycle. Obviously, during the school week, it gets pretty tight with functions and things after
01:28:47
school. So I would like to work on that some more. Uh I'd like to continue uh
01:28:53
helping develop uh the TTI, the teachers institute that a number of us have been
01:28:58
involved in. Tim uh being one of them and also uh David Ferguson who uh left his principal's job to become our CEO.
01:29:07
Uh so so I'm chair of the board. So I' I would like uh to think that I can
01:29:13
contribute more in that space to develop great teachers to to ensure that they stay in the teaching profession and feel
01:29:20
rewarded uh going into the future. So so so there is plenty to do. There's also
01:29:26
work supporting other principles, mentoring and helping other principles around the country. I'd love to get
01:29:33
involved in that kind of work and you know so I I don't think um that my time
01:29:38
will will be wasted. Uh but I'd love to help support the education system right
01:29:44
across the board because it all matters and and that's important for me. >> Politics.
01:29:51
>> Gosh. >> Would you like to get into the um you the political side of education?
01:29:57
>> Uh or no? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, it just depends, Dom. I think, uh, yeah, I mean, I think one of
01:30:06
the issues with education is that with with a three-year cycle of governments, you know, we feel like a cork on a top
01:30:14
of the ocean at times where one government comes in and we've, you know, we we've got, um, uh, you know,
01:30:21
decisions made and then another government comes in and those decisions are taken away and it's completely
01:30:27
different. you know, I don't think that does uh service to our education system
01:30:32
and you know, the public service I do think perhaps needs a bit of a reook in general and you know are they serving
01:30:40
the public like our taxes that we pay into it should be. um to some extent they seem to be more embroiled with you
01:30:48
know political um sort of action rather than uh delivering to the to the areas in which they should be delivering and
01:30:57
that that's a question um really that I think would be an interesting question for for people to have a think
01:31:05
about is our public service really servicing the public in the way that it should and my view is neither health nor
01:31:13
education are effective in that space. Uh I think if we can get cross sector agreement on
01:31:20
educational decision making moving forward that is a much more desirable way to improve the quality of education
01:31:27
across New Zealand and I'd love to see that happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:31:30
>> Well, you've you've got so much experience and so much knowledge. So
01:31:34
what what was what was that face? It would be good if you could um carry on sharing it. All right. Um, so yeah,
01:31:43
term two next year, say you're you're doing some shopping. You're walking
01:31:47
through a new market and you see a dire girl vaping or acting inappropriately. >> What do you do? You say anything or it's
01:31:53
no longer your circus, not your monkeys? >> No, I would definitely call it.
01:31:58
Absolutely. I'd make a quick phone call and um yeah, you know, you once you you
01:32:07
care about these things, you'll always care about them. Yeah. And I' I'd
01:32:12
probably introduce myself and say uh to the young woman, you know, have a think about what you're doing to your body and
01:32:18
the reputation of your school. Uh and when you go there, you buy into that. >> And you know, your responsibility as a
01:32:27
student uh is to to listen up and and be accountable uh like we all are and have
01:32:34
been over the years. And it's important. She models that, too. So, step up, young
01:32:39
lady. Uh, and I would I would make a phone call after that to have someone follow up.
01:32:48
>> That was that was a dumb question. My my my grandfather was a school principal
01:32:52
and he was a school principal till the day he died. Like, once you're a principal, you're a principal for life,
01:32:56
aren't you? You're constantly telling people off. I'll try not to tell too many people
01:33:02
off, but but I I do think um you know, it is funny because I do pick up rubbish around the school and do things like
01:33:09
that. But I think you know, if you want to live your values and do what you're
01:33:13
asking students to do, you know, model it. Um I I did I have a story of a school I went to uh for a little while
01:33:22
and did some relieving. Uh and uh they had a a DP there who was an interesting character. Anyway, he was walking
01:33:29
across, this was quite a few years ago, he had a cigarette hanging out his mouth
01:33:34
and he was he looked disheveled and he was asking the boys to pull their socks up and I thought, "Really?
01:33:42
Okay, you've got to do what you what you say you believe in." And and I think
01:33:48
young people uh see that and and it is important. They they see that. >> Yeah. Leadership, culture, value, all
01:33:55
those things. It's got to come from the top down, doesn't it? It it's definitely
01:33:59
both ways I think. Yeah. Top down. Uh but but also believe you know that you empower the rest of your community to
01:34:08
walk the same you know they hey you know you're all on the same boat. You've got to be pulling in the same
01:34:16
direction. And some of those simple things really do matter. And you know kids want you to be consistent with
01:34:23
them. uh to to be personable and to be a person. That's what you're wanting them
01:34:28
to be. Uh and it's important that we be those things, too. >> Yeah. >> All good.
01:34:33
>> I think that's a great place to end it. >> Yeah. >> Heather, Mrs. McCrae,
01:34:39
my old maths tutor. Um yeah, I mean, in terms of your LinkedIn profile, like, you know, it can't be all perfect, can
01:34:45
it? You tutored me and I didn't have great mathematics success. Um but 17 years in Dio as uh the principal, no one
01:34:53
can argue with um your achievements there. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been really
01:34:57
cool. >> It's been a pleasure, Dom, and lovely to touch base with you again. Uh and to see
01:35:03
you've grown into a very very fine young man that we're all proud of. >> I'm just trying to think when the last
01:35:11
time someone called me a young man was. I'll take it. Hey, thanks so much. >> All the best, Dom, and and great work.