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what's up hey what's up what's your program when do you put this out uh each Monday each
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Monday an episode comes out um we're on now John Hart hello welcome to Runners only with dom Harvey hi Dom I
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don't know how you got Runners only and you got me well you know well this is I
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launched the podcast um at the beginning of uh 2022 and it was like a run I thought I'm so late to
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the podcast game I need like a niche and I love running so I thought everyone's
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got some connection to running so it started off with that as a niche but it sort of evolved quite a bit yeah it's
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probably probably time for a Rebrand yeah I'm not sure not sure if you expect
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me to run yes it is um welcome thank you so much for coming over I I um tried to research you online is this
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your first ever podcast uh yes it is I've been um probably pretty quiet in recent times and out of out of the
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public eye but um working hard at the things I love and um enjoying retirement or send me retirement and um yeah having
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fun a lot of uh players that you coached over the years would find it very hard to believe that you've been quiet
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actually [Laughter] maybe a little Icebreaker here it's one of the most recognizable voices that uh
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you'll get to hear um I asked someone for comment on you you'll be a good guest uh absolute
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cracker of a talker and the first thing I'd say about John Hart New Zealand Rugby was very very lucky to have him as
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coach in 1996 that's when the game went professional Hardy had 25 years old corporate experience with Richard
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challenge so knew everything about a work-life balance knew everything about Contracting
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um ah just just sorting out both on and off field of fears so we're really lucky uh
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to have him there and super super organized incredibly organized and Brilliant motivational speaker so sat
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down with you and made it very very clear uh what was expected of you your job nothing more nothing less but
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brilliant uh look in the eye and making sure you understood what was required yeah Ian Jones one of the greatest ever
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that's very nice yeah how I mean I've got another message to play from him but
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before we get into that like how does that make you feel when you've had that
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impact on someone yeah that's nice I mean um you never know that sometimes you know you never hear those sort of
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comments and um you know I there's no doubt that sorry no doubt going into the um
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professional era was totally new new for everyone and uh and probably my background helped in
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that regard so I appreciate his words and and I don't think people even understand how difficult it was going to
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into a profession where I mean there was a lot of shifts for at all levels of the
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game and all contributors and uh professionalism wasn't as smooth or as easy as it might have been but we worked
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hard at it and I wasn't always the most popular coach because I had to make some
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pretty hard decisions particularly in terms of what was acceptable and what wasn't acceptable in terms of how do you
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mean well behaviors um you know the old days and the amateur days what went on tour stayed on tour
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um standards were possibly a lot more average in the professional era you were owned by the public you were in the
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public eye and you had a responsibility and um and I think you know that mean we
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had to change some of the things that were traditional in the All Blacks and some people didn't like that some
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players reacted to that but I know it was the right thing and ultimately we got it right
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was there I mean I've got no idea what the all black folds like now whether there's the store still the uh the back
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bus thing with senior players or that sort of US versus them mentality with the they've seen it um it was you look
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back now under the 2023 guys it was just sort of elements of almost bullying in a
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way look I I I'm not close to it right now but but but I would think that's well and truly
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gone yeah that sense of bullying and um and there was that it was involved pretty heavily before I was involved I
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mean I used to be I used to be quite shocked at some of the things I saw and read
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um in terms of some of the Behavior Uh team behaviors but look professionalism's evolved to people
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who've grown with it um I think you see really a very different attitude now to to young
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people wanting to succeed to older players wanting to help younger players and everyone's focused on team versus
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maybe individual and so I think um you know there's a lot more cohesiveness unity and and in the end a better
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product yeah well it just wasn't it wasn't a thing back then wasn't it I
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remember I was a um broadcaster in Palmerston North at the time in the 90s and uh I was uh so I worked in the
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morning doing a breakfast radio show then I was free all day so when rugby became professional
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um I became best friends with some rugby players at the time because we all had all this free time so there was a
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Christian Callan Mark Granby yeah yeah Dion Waller Kristen Davis yeah yeah um switch all of those guys I didn't coach
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Dion but I coached those guys yeah yeah we used to kick around to get a bit um yeah I think Chris Christian was shy by
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Nature until you get to know him and I think he found an incredibly intimidating at the time yeah the older
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players yeah Fitzy and Camo and whoever else well that's only natural I guess
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um you know for young people particularly if they come in um pretty inexperienced as well
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um and all of a sudden to be exposed to that sort of level of player and and everything that goes with it the aura
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around them um yeah you do come in a bit quiet and and possibly that's a good thing because
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you come in and learn you don't want to be a loud mouth whatever you want to
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learn yeah and then anyone understand and um you know I I think that that that helps them all grow ultimately yeah okay
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I've got another message to play you from um Ian Jones now if you know corporate people like I'm sure you do
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when you're sack from your corporate job and they give you the Spiel you actually
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walk away feeling [ __ ] good about yourself and that by the way John Hart uh related
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the news to me in 99 I wasn't playing um telling you everything you can and can't do what they can and can't do for
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you until you walk away uh realizing that you win the team but to Heart his credit he gave me an opportunity
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gave me a chance and I was back on the 99 Rugby World Cup squad my final year under John Hart so now only fun things
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to say about that man and boy you're going to have some fun and hear some stories yeah yeah it's
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nice isn't it yeah it is nice yeah so um yeah it was yeah I mean your corporate experience
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like you're a lifer at Fletcher's that must have prepared you well for those
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difficult conversations but um can't be ever easy telling someone um sorry you haven't made the cut never
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and uh anyone that finds who he finds out easy uh is a Savage is a Savage yeah I think um you know they're always
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really difficult conversations to have I always had a belief that Honesty was the
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most important thing I still do on those things I think it's really important
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that you tell people as it is um and you help them manage through it you know I mean it's um you it's not
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easy you know and and I remember those times with camo you know it was a difficult time your backs were having a
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tough time in 98 um after two fantastic years of 96 and 97. yeah 17 out of 18 years and um you
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know 98 was difficult we lost all our experience a lot of experience and uh you know we went through a lot of change
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and and a guy like camo um you know he showed his qualities because he stuck at a he believed in
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himself and he believed in the All Blacks and he got back in and he was always a real um he was a pro and you
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know you need those sort of leaders you need those sort of people and and at a time when I think
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um we lacked a bit of experience and Leadership because of 98 after 98 we're
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affect we effectively had lost after 97 Fitzpatrick um Olo Browns and Sam Brook uh Frank
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Bunce uh Michael Jones I mean a huge amount of experience so people like camo who understood the history and
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understood what was you know needed to be a great all black was still very important to the game
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yeah so he obviously took that conversation well how did other players do players um
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they cry with the news does anyone get angry and defensive um look I'm not I'm not going to talk
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about those the odd one that did but yes some react um but in the end I think as long as
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you're honest and you believe in what you're saying um they go away and they they'll think
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it through and and look they'll never accept it you know they'll never pose on
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them it's a personal isn't it yeah it is I mean um greatest example for me was
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was back in the Auckland days and you know that great team in the 80 80 years 80-0 um John McDermott
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um was playing for uh University um it was after you know it was a he played um he had a fantastic year he was
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playing well for Auckland and but I decided that the time had come for me to introduce a new player who I had huge
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hopes for and I had to tell John that you know I wasn't selecting him for this
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next game he was devastated and I I can appreciate it because he he'd done all he could do
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you know I couldn't ask for any more um and that player just happened to be Michael Jones and
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um you know Michael Jones came in and obviously career just took off um and I'll never forget that game
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because MCD was in the reserves and those days reserves didn't get on so he's sitting behind me and Michael Jones
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had a fantastic debut scored a few tries it looked absolutely brilliant and with
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about three minutes to go I get a whack on the back and it's from McDermott he
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said did you see that Hardy I said what Michael Jones you just missed a tackle so it's sort of you know and we're still
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great mates so you know that's um I think I think Honesty and people as long as you've got good reasons for your
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decisions I think you've got to you gotta and you've got to think about those decisions and make sure you get
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effectively yeah was did McDermott say he was available to play on Sundays well yeah
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I think it was one of the differences to play any day yeah so you've had uh two books out
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um Straight From the Heart and change of heart first one uh Straight From the Heart came up before you even got to
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coach the All Blacks and the last chapter of that book this um a sentence in there that I want to run through
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if the coach so this is before you got to coach the All Blacks if the coaching career which I never actively planned
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but which grew like Topsy and gave me a life gave my life a whole new dimension is in fact now over the good memories
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will fire out where the disappointments I've got three questions from that one
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sentence first of all what is topsy what is topsy is that a Wade yeah no I mean all careers are up and down oh you
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know okay yep okay not not the one you eat no no okay the ice block yeah yeah um next question uh you said the
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coaching career is one that you never actively planned into it well I never planned a coach
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I was um [Music] I did my first coaching um experience was when I was 18 and I coached at University and I coached my
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young brother's team um and so I got into coaching in that sense early but then I went into playing
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and I never thought about coaching until I went to wait a matter um when I switched away to matter in
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1970 had a couple of years there three years there and um then the coach retired and um the manager at the time
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Ray voxwich was a great old guy and a great great storyboard of way to matter and Newcastle lab rugby
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um he said to me why don't you be a player coach so I thought okay I'll I'll think about that and I
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got into it in 1974 I became player coach of waiter matter and I picked a very good assistant
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um DJ Graham um John Graham A Headmaster and great all black and uh um he and I had been involved in the
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Auckland team I was a reserve and I was never good enough to play really I was normally a reserver you're quite handy
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right you were never all black level I was an average halfback that um was lucky to get what I got you know um I
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think I was um I was a competitor and I think that got me a long way I didn't
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have the skills I mean couldn't kick with my left foot couldn't pass with my
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left hand so you just wouldn't get by today and there were those sort of things you know I thought I was pretty
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ordinary but I got a few games yeah but so he said I said would you come and help me and so he said well of course
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he's committed to the school but he came and helped me I used to go and pick him
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up in the little mini on Tuesday and Thursdays and drive out to waitemata and that's how my career started wasn't
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planned at all and following year we won the Galleria won the championship so you
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know that got off to a pretty good start and then so you weren't like a massive
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planner until I suppose it got to the time where you were sort of in the all black fold did you just sort of like
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evolve and roll with opportunities that came your way well to be fair um planning and thinking ahead has always
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been part of my life with Fletchers I mean I was you know hugely involved in the the growth of Fletcher's of the
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company and I learned and understood man management very early in my in my life and and so
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um coaching was coaching really fell out of that because it usually used many of the same skills that you require
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in managing people in a business and managing managing a football team and so um you know it evolved from there and uh
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I was really fortunate I guess I coached way to matter for seven years or so and
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then I managed to get the Auckland Auckland job and and you know that was that was a huge experience and
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interesting thing looking back I mean I was full-time employed by Fletcher challenge as a employee relations
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manager of that company and in those days and it was it was a big company right like one of the biggest companies
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in New Zealand yeah it was the biggest oh the biggest yeah well I I work for Fletcher's initially I joined them in in
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1967 or 66 and then Fletcher challenge was formed when Tasman Paul and paper challenge
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Corporation and Fletcher's all came together so as an amalgamation of three of New Zealand's largest companies to
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become New Zealand's largest company and it was um you know one stage we employed
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30 000 people around the world so it was a it was a real big company and I led that
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HR function for many years towards towards the end just while we're on the fleetches thing towards the end it must
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have been like you you were taking the piss with the job and the respect that like I've had Sue John [ __ ] on the
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podcast and he talks about we'll get into this he he talks about coming and having a meeting with you with his dad
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um so you were conduct you were just you were coaching all right you were yeah it
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was an office for your coaching job sorry I have to ask you Fletcher I don't
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think he would have seen it that way but um look they merged you know it was I mean I look back that's just not
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possible today you couldn't do a job like I had yeah which was full time yeah full on
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you know I mean I had a big a big role in that company at that stage and here I am coaching a a provincial team as well
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I mean I don't know I often say to myself how do I how did that happen I don't know I don't know yeah we were you
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just busy working burning the candle at both ends like you you see I mean I was joking before I was being cheeky you
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were obviously doing the Fletcher stuff well and the rugby stuff well well I had
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to well so I wouldn't had either so um yeah so so it absolutely wasn't one of
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those you know when rugby was still amateur and players were given token jobs so you might have someone that's um
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merchandising with Coke or whatever one of one of the big advertisers wasn't
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there it was a proper job yeah it was a proper job yeah it wasn't semi-professional no no it was it was
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and um I I was lucky I guess I had really good people around me I've always been a great believer that if you want
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to be successful you've got to surround yourself by good people better than yourself wherever you can get people a
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bit on yourself in areas that they're in and and and and and and look I had at
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Fletcher's um in those days I had a fantastic team of people under me that running the HR
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function um and as a consequence you know that helped um because I could I could manage uh uh
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and and I did the same thing um with Auckland I make sure I got really good people around me and um you
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know tested the boundaries a bit by challenging the system and and changing the processes in terms of who would be a
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manager how would a managed to be selected I mean um I wanted the best not just one of the
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rest um and so managed to get that changed and something they'd done for 100 years
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and pointed a delegate Club delegate was always that they'd take turns at being
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manager of the Auckland team and things like that so I made sure that I you can't succeed unless you have good
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structure and good people yeah and and I learned that early and I've always practiced it and I do it today yeah how
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good yeah so the the so the John Cohen thing he he told the story and I I get the you
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know these um there's three versions to every story right there's there's four
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in his case so I feel like it's a story that he's told over the years and it's been
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refined and it's um it's like a punchline now yeah um but there's this
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version of events your version of events and Detroit's probably somewhere in the
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middle um but he said I'm paraphrasing here there um he was a young player him and
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his dad came to see you in your office high up at Fletcher's yeah and you wanted him to play in the Auckland B
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Team yeah and his dad said no it's The A Team or nothing and his dad's mentality
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was um well if he plays in the B team and plays badly it's the end of his career if he plays in The A Team and he
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plays badly it's like well come on he's a boy in The A Team but you weren't the
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sort of guy that suffers fools like you're not going to be have your arm Twisted by some upstart potential All
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Blacks future All Blacks dad yeah I think there's um there's definitely two sides for that story
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um and I'll have to um he's not far away um look JK was someone that I identified through
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some colleagues Eric Boggs was one who told me to watch this young guy he'd seen him in a club
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game so um no I asked him to go on to watch John Kerwin as an 18 year old playing for
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Auckland third grade a university third grade and he came back to me with language Austin I went and watched him
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again myself and he would not know no one knew I was behind her but the end of a field just just watching this kid play
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you know in the uploads and and I said wow I don't think I've ever seen sort of things like it you know big
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rangy skillful you know presence had everything and so I I then managed to get him into a game a
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barbarian game um which was opening I think it was a messy Club rooms were being opened and
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um they were having a a game and it was a barbarian team playing I was involved in a barbarian Club I got him in that
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team played out played uh Joe Stanley inside him um to to look after him and whatever and
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went really well and I I thought now 1983 was 100 years of Auckland rugby and there were two teams being picked to
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play a centennial fixture an Auckland a team and an Auckland B team which I had to pick both
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um and and they were both playing Team composite teams from around the country so obviously the best team the Auckland
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a team were playing all the All Blacks and and you know from the provinces and and the next life were in the B Team and
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I decided that I wanted to play John but I didn't want him to fail because I knew
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at 18 um you know it was a huge risk because he's coming from third grade he hadn't
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played a senior game of rugby yeah so I'm putting him into so big boys yeah so I sort of um
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came out with a strategy publicly which said um John as JK is going to represent the
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Youth of Auckland in the Centennial so if it didn't work you could go back to
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third grade or go back to his Club if it did he's on the way but so I predict him
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his father actually never said no it's a team or no I actually told his father I
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was going to play him the B Team yeah and then I went away and thought if I'm going to make this kid successful
00:21:14
I got to put him with the best and so having people like Gary Cunningham in those days Joe Stanley with him was
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probably very important so so there's a little bit of a Twist there yeah yeah
00:21:25
they just comes to my office and we you know we had a fantastic chat I mean and John was a butcher's Apprentice
00:21:32
he could hardly write I mean I've still got the note that he wrote to me which I'm sure I'm not sure
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just after not sure I understand what it says now Peter but you know amazing why
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have you keep that yeah just history yeah are you are you um not not a hoarder hoarder would suggest you've got
00:21:49
like rooms full of but are you like a sentimentalist in a way yeah I'm a sentimentalist and I I like to keep
00:21:56
things that are important to me and JK was important to me I became a good friend
00:22:01
at the time you kept this um shortly written note you didn't you didn't know
00:22:05
the importance of or you didn't know what he was going to come on no but I had a view on him right I sort of you
00:22:11
just hang on to these notes just in case I didn't get many I know you're only half joking when you
00:22:22
say that I mean we started with those voice notes from um Ian Jones um but yeah is it a weird relationship
00:22:29
with coach and player like I'm guessing there's some that you end up friends
00:22:31
with and sums that end up hating your guts and then there's probably like a large band in the middle yeah I I it's
00:22:37
probably that way yeah um I'm really delighted that a lot of my friends today Remain the team of the 80s
00:22:44
the Auckland team of the 80s I mean I have a lot of uh personal friendships that remain
00:22:50
um out of that team in the 80s um so I always look back on that and it's pretty special I mean
00:22:55
I coached the professional era and I coach the Auckland team and we created a very special Auckland team in the 80s
00:23:02
from nothing um with a whole whole attitude to say we're going to make this professional
00:23:07
professional didn't mean money professional meant how it was organized and planned and you know I gotta say out
00:23:15
of that came some wonderful friendships some very you know fantastic players um and if I ever look back at my career
00:23:22
the iron the ironic thing was I coached them both to professional and the amateur era yeah the most professional
00:23:30
team I ever coached was a team in the 80s the Auckland team which was amateur and and I say that because they just had
00:23:37
such a we grew such a professional attitude um and we wanted to be the best and we
00:23:43
had great camaraderie and we did a whole lot of new things introduced you know bringing Partners to functions which had
00:23:49
never been allowed before we had a whole attitude to to Growing growing a team and and and I look back and you know in
00:23:57
those days we got um a pair of boots and a tracksuit and you handed the tracksuit back at the end
00:24:02
of the year that was that was it that was you know um and and no not ascent and and
00:24:11
um and I just look back with a lot of pleasure and pride um with the memories of the people that
00:24:16
we grew through that through that Auckland team and they were a very professional outfit
00:24:22
even if um John Kuhn was bringing Sev in his own words like savaloys and lunch into the absolutely but that was part of
00:24:31
that that was sort of part of the you know you didn't have diets nutrition you
00:24:35
know if we didn't understand nutrition there's none of that going on yeah so
00:24:39
yeah and I know it's all those were the sorts of things that made it special you
00:24:42
know all the contributions made by so many people you know it was fantastic I love that I love that I actually read an
00:24:48
article the other day by chance about um Steve McDowell and talking just about what a Trailblazer he was because he was
00:24:52
in the gym before anyone else yeah so this was a they weren't weightlifting then per se no yeah I mean
00:24:59
we didn't know what Jim's worth yeah we didn't you know I mean the team in the
00:25:02
80s we didn't know what a gym was we we didn't train in gyms we trained around
00:25:07
the Rugby field in Iran and and it's interesting you know that the dramatic change in the body types
00:25:14
um you know as a result of um the whole attitude the strength and conditioning has totally changed yeah it
00:25:21
was all about Fitness it wasn't so much about strength but we seem to get by all right yeah you did
00:25:28
all right so speaking of that Auckland Auckland um era which was just wildly successful
00:25:34
um do you think that's part of the reason why you were so polarizing with a lot of
00:25:38
new zealanders yeah so I'm I'm thinking like I wasn't even massively into rugby
00:25:43
but I was in um yeah Palmers North in the 80s and 90s and there was definitely an US versus them mentality like
00:25:48
aucklanders were called Jeffers yeah just another [ __ ] aucklander yeah there was that sort of Auckland like
00:25:53
sort of hatred in a way oh look I think it was always there and I'd probably in
00:25:59
some people's minds epitomized um you know Jeffer um because I I wasn't wasn't
00:26:04
shy to express an opinion uh or a view and uh I had and I think people didn't
00:26:10
like that and then people don't like success and uh you know tall poppy syndrome yeah loud you know was very
00:26:17
much uh alive and well in those days and uh it still is I think well it still is
00:26:22
and and so that that was that was tough um didn't worry me at the time really
00:26:27
because I was more focused internally on what we were doing rather than wanting worrying what others were thinking
00:26:34
but it got brought home pretty much when we went to Canterbury and in the 80s and
00:26:38
83 and 85 I mean yeah it was nasty it wasn't good it wasn't good oh I just remember a third question from
00:26:48
that uh Facebook so um uh yeah this is your first book Straight From the Heart um in the last chapter it says if the
00:26:54
coaching career which I never actively planned but which grew like Topsy and gave me a whole gave my life a whole new
00:26:58
dimensioners in fact now over the good memories will uh outweigh the disappointments
00:27:03
um so that was before you even coached the All Blacks so sitting here now as a 77 year old man everything you went
00:27:08
through um do the good memories far out where the disappointments oh absolutely cool
00:27:12
yeah yeah oh no look I'm um I'm really proud of what what I managed to achieve and who I worked with and and
00:27:21
and and and I love the game and I love New Zealand I'm a passionate kiwi yeah
00:27:26
and I'm a passionate rugby person and uh look I just was so honored to coach the
00:27:31
All Blacks um ultimately but if it hadn't happened I'd had such a great time with Auckland I coached New Zealand
00:27:37
colts for four years and unbeaten and and you know I had a whole run of uh you know success between before I coached
00:27:43
the all backs again I never thought I'd coach Silverbacks in the end um you know I got rejected and oh Time
00:27:50
and Time really three times okay let's get into that because um I think it says
00:27:54
something about um you know persistence and dogged determination and resilience I don't know just like a man with like
00:28:03
laser Precision Focus I think they knew exactly what he wanted so you were um like assistant coach in 87 when we won
00:28:10
the first World Cup you're one of the part of the coaching yeah yeah Brian Lahore was the coach and Alex
00:28:17
Wiley and I were brought in as new selectors 86 with a horror year remember that was the Cavaliers year and they'd
00:28:23
gone to France at the end of the year and hadn't had a lot of success and and
00:28:26
we had a World Cup in March so new selector new selection panel got picked uh in October of 80
00:28:34
um of 86 and Alex and I were Alex was very successful with Canterbury I was very sorry Alex yeah and um we came
00:28:43
together with um and we were assistant coaches to to um to Brian and he did a brilliant job
00:28:49
in leading that World Cup but I think we had fantastic influence um particularly in selection
00:28:57
um because Brian you know was involved in the team in 86 and probably was more committed to the
00:29:03
Past Alex and I had a very little um surprise some people we had a very common view on selection
00:29:11
um and you know we worked hard to create a great squad for that um World Cup um and I think I look back you know and
00:29:19
I think when we were about four months out in the world cup so that was that was just probably January
00:29:27
we wrote down our teams and ultimately Alex and I got I think we both got 23 and 24 out of the 26. wow
00:29:35
and I think Brian got about 17. so that said we had a lot of influence together in sort of forcing change and players
00:29:44
like Michael Jones who hadn't been heard of was all of a sudden elevated and and
00:29:49
we had to get we tried we decided we wanted to play a game at different speed and a different style from what had been
00:29:55
traditional and so a lot of the older All Blacks are traditional props and locks uh you know got bypassed and we
00:30:01
picked a really mobile aggressive team and and so I look back on that as you know fun when we're in the North Island
00:30:08
I would be coaching helping Brian when we're in the South Island Alex Wood coach we were never there together he
00:30:14
didn't want too many voices and he's probably right on that I think he was a
00:30:17
pretty good judge Brian I think what was the um Dynamic like with you and griswali at the time you you
00:30:23
couldn't imagine two more different human beings yeah no look um there's
00:30:26
been a lot written about us as being you know totally apart and you know I hate personality clashing
00:30:34
um I have a huge respect for Grizz um I saw what he did with Canterbury uh and and I think he had a mutual respect we
00:30:43
had very similar attitudes to selection but we were totally different in the way
00:30:48
you manage people and what you did and and so you know when we came when we're put together it
00:30:56
wasn't going to work because totally different philosophies of how to get the
00:31:00
best out of people or whatever and I'm not saying he was right and I was yeah
00:31:03
wrong or vice versa they were totally different been very successful in our own ways but you put them together as
00:31:11
the New Zealand Union decided to do a 91 after you know things weren't looking
00:31:15
too good before the World Cup it was doomed to fail because um you know it just we were very
00:31:21
different but huge respect always will have that and uh we'll retain that forever
00:31:27
um so when you see each other now both both like senior men and the Twilight years really um what's it like well I
00:31:34
don't see a lot of them but I sent him a note in fact I was watching him sweat
00:31:38
and forget ads and uh and and I see they were they were they had all these old players and I I decided to contact them
00:31:46
and said I rang them I texted him and said look I we haven't spoken for a while but and but I've got gray here and
00:31:53
I reckon I'd make your team if you're looking for someone to join you and you
00:31:55
wait and forget the team give me a call so uh and he came back so that's fantastic I mean look
00:32:02
um the media wrote A Lot in those days um about that conflict and they made a lot more of it than it was but there was
00:32:11
no doubt there was differences so there's no point in me trying to I'm not
00:32:14
sugar coating it so you weren't you weren't best mates you weren't sharing a
00:32:17
room no no I mean I couldn't quite keep up with drinking okay okay all right while we're on this so
00:32:24
that was the um yeah so during the 80s so you never won um the World Cup we'll
00:32:29
get to that later as as um the head coach but did did you sort of feel like the 87 success was partially yours oh I
00:32:36
think so yeah and I think those involved would say that Alex and I made a real contribution and I know we did yeah um I
00:32:42
think we did in many ways um so um although it was really interesting I mean the New Zealand Union uh treated
00:32:49
you very differently you like when they had the photo of a team we weren't allowed to be in the photo oh is that
00:32:55
right no coaches yeah no no Brian was but not us okay so the two selectors and assistants weren't in the photo you know
00:33:02
so um don't have an official record of it actually but you know we yeah I'm sure
00:33:09
we may help to make a difference and and I'm sure Alex and I and Brian uh we work
00:33:15
really well together and and that's to Brian's great credit that he managed to
00:33:20
manage the personalities and got the best out of both of us and I think uh the success of World Cup was very much
00:33:26
about his leadership of the three of us and then so the next all black coach after that that was Laurie Maines yeah
00:33:32
you you guys you guys hated each other right well um at the end of 87 we went on a tour to
00:33:43
Japan I took the New Zealand team to Japan and he was my assistant coach and when we came back
00:33:48
the politics took over and um it was always going to be Grizzle not me and he got appointed and then so Grizzly went
00:33:55
through to to um 91 and then after 91. um unfortunately because of what happened
00:34:05
on the tour of 91 I should never have gone as a co-coach I was uh I have to say I was told if I didn't there would
00:34:13
be the end of my aspirations right and so I was putting a pretty invidious position and I still damned if you do
00:34:19
Dan yeah I still wanted to coach jewelbacks but it never worked it never worked it was a it was a disappointment
00:34:25
the all backs weren't actually going well that year I don't think putting me
00:34:29
in there helped out all um because Alex didn't really want me there and I don't blame him I mean I
00:34:34
don't want you wouldn't want someone put upon you um and all of a sudden he's a
00:34:38
co-coach not the coach and so at the end of 91 um because we lost that World Cup
00:34:44
um I think consequences were that those those that didn't like me had an excuse again and um away I went again
00:34:52
Into the Wilderness yeah Wilderness and what did that look like Wilderness for a couple of years
00:34:58
um well yeah because I got out of coaching really uh did you you see you go you go home what do you say to your
00:35:04
family like they'd said I'm done well I didn't say or done um I I sort of kept involved in the game
00:35:10
on the peripheral of it but um you know I Victory when I came back into coaching
00:35:14
you all backs in 96 I'd been about three years out of coaching so it was a huge
00:35:18
step but I think the whole um you know Laurie went through good and bad times uh in 94 things weren't
00:35:26
traveling too well when I got asked to stand again because I was thinking you're making a change to the coach and
00:35:31
they've it was close but they didn't change so I missed an 87 91 94 so 95
00:35:40
came along it was a big risk yeah so in those years we we weren't doing any coaching you were you were commentating
00:35:45
right I did a lot of commentating yeah I heard a and you never know if any of these things are true um but I heard
00:35:51
that when Laurie Maines would watch like repeats of the game on VHS he had to have the volume down because he couldn't
00:35:56
stand your voice is that have you heard that I wouldn't surprise me really he's a Southern Man he's a southern man
00:36:06
yeah so was that a frosty relationship with you too or it was never hurt I don't know really yeah we didn't really
00:36:12
have a lot to do with each other I mean um he I mean he he said he's really committed and he gave everything he had
00:36:19
um you know uh we we had our we had our differences um you know but when I got the all-back
00:36:26
job I first bought a call I went down to see him because I wanted to pick his brains and get an exchange information
00:36:32
and he was very helpful in that regard so yeah you moved forward yeah if you see each other now how would it be
00:36:38
absolutely no problem at all see my golf down at the hills occasionally so yeah does it go all right you kick his ass
00:36:43
off no I couldn't he's too good for me at golf right so then you you finally get the the all
00:36:50
black job um and you know you must I don't know it must have been a frustrating time for you
00:36:56
because you you knew your skill said you knew your qualifications you knew on many occasions you were the right guy
00:37:03
for the job you keep getting overlooked that must have pissed you off I'm like or or I mean did you feel like
00:37:11
defeated heartbroken angry all of us yeah yeah all of us I mean I went through a lot of you know I thought on
00:37:18
87 uh I'd probably done enough to be the coach um but um the council decided it was very
00:37:28
political dominant was the whole selection process was terribly political it was who you know I mean it wasn't
00:37:36
about I mean we didn't even get interviewed in those days I mean it was just it was just politicking who you
00:37:42
know and who you who who who which Council was like to and which councils didn't and eventually in 95 there was a
00:37:51
far more formal process um and I think that helped me because you know I was used to that sort of
00:37:56
thing and um I think um in the end you know there were quite a few people standing in in 95
00:38:04
um for that all black job um but I think probably my my presentation helped me my background
00:38:12
helped me and it's a bit it's a bit like Karma's alluded to I guess um this was coaching the all backs in 96
00:38:21
was dramatically different from coaching your backs in 95. from amateur versus professional yeah yeah yeah and I
00:38:27
suppose you had the professional skill set from your years yeah so I think that helped you know and um so and finally
00:38:33
finally got it and it was fantastic it was on my 50th birthday yeah yeah um yeah December 6 December 6th December
00:38:43
6 1995 and um there's another thing that I from a personal perspective that I
00:38:47
like about this I 10 50 this year and it's um I feel like I'm just getting
00:38:51
started like I feel like Life's a sports game and first half's over now it's into
00:38:55
the second half and here you are 50 years old Just Landing the you know one of the biggest jobs in the country it's
00:39:01
bloody awesome it's cool yeah you in competitors like Graham Henry you were young when you got the job yeah well it
00:39:06
was sort of um um well imagine getting if I'd go to back in you know 87 you know you were 39
00:39:13
38 so in many ways probably was the right time you know more experience and I was a
00:39:19
better Coach and probably better equipped than I was then so I'm still probably learning
00:39:25
um so I think you know to hear that day to get the phone call at my office and we're celebrating my
00:39:32
birthday at the office and uh got the phone call and and then to go home and have 50 60 of your best best mates there
00:39:39
for your 50th birthday that's what was all planned to we had no idea that that
00:39:42
was the day the all black coach was going to be announced and um wow it turned in quite a party
00:39:50
yeah yeah and um and what a run like you you referenced this before the first couple of years 17 out of 18. and I feel
00:39:56
like being um so um Auckland Centric or at least the Nationwide perception you you had to be winning every game you you
00:40:05
had to that was the only outcome acceptable really yeah it was under pressure to yeah I can't imagine the
00:40:11
expectation but um you know I think we we did manage the move to professionalism really well I mean once
00:40:19
I got the job I did a lot of study on what made professional teams successful and I studied NFL and and and and and
00:40:27
and and basketball and I looked at major sports and that had gone professional and I learned quickly that there were so
00:40:35
many pitfalls for players and coaches and administrators and it sort of scared me a bit and I thought I don't think we
00:40:44
really understand what professionalism is because it's not just turning up today and now you're paid and yesterday
00:40:49
you weren't um as I said earlier all the responsibilities and everything changes
00:40:53
and the whole media attitude changes everything you know you you you're in you're in the face so
00:40:59
one of the things I did in February was hold a seminar where I talked about the role and the
00:41:07
responsibilities of professionalism and I brought a group of speakers together from all walks of different walks of
00:41:13
like Paul Paul Holmes from the media oh yeah yeah Doug Macias who was in the chief executive of lion Nathan Ricky
00:41:20
Ellison the American footballer New Zealand based um who who won um who who'd won Super Bowls um in America I
00:41:29
brought him out to speak and had all sorts of discussions going on in terms of just
00:41:36
alluding this is just this is different and you've all got to understand you
00:41:41
know if you now paid 200 000 a year when you were paid nothing last year you got
00:41:47
to learn to live off 50 or 60 and save save the rest and start to build build the future you know because there was
00:41:54
none of that none of that thinking and I I saw young guys just wasting money consumed by families taking whatever you
00:42:01
know um so I think that was really important to address those issues and a lot of those
00:42:08
issues you know I mean when you look at some of those Sports the rate of divorce
00:42:12
the suicide alcoholism or gambling all those things that um were very very dangerous
00:42:20
um and still still are out there in many ways we're challenges that we all had to
00:42:24
be aware of and and most importantly we had to understand that we had a responsibility to perform on and off the
00:42:31
field you were no longer it was no longer acceptable to be anything but presented well off the field
00:42:38
yeah that kind of I mean you hear about Lotto winners that have no financial literacy and then they come to this
00:42:43
large sum of money and then it's gone within a couple of years and I suppose
00:42:46
it's the same sort of thing maybe a bit of easy come easy go but um there was so many stories about Jonah
00:42:52
over those years like the team bus would stop in a different town and had go to a
00:42:55
Harvey Norman or selectrics or whatever it was and buy like a boom box for the bus or there'd be a young player in
00:43:01
Wellington that'd take under his wing and buy a car um so you didn't do a good job coaching
00:43:05
him about them let's talk about him because um like from the outside that seems like the
00:43:14
most um the the most unusual Dynamic ever like here you are middle age middle age white New Zealand man
00:43:22
um this phenomenon of the sport a Tongan giant from South Auckland um yeah there's a photo in your book of
00:43:28
you and him talking on the field and you were the spokesperson at the funeral for
00:43:31
the family when when he passed away so it must have been um a special relate I always wondered about that the
00:43:36
relationship because I thought maybe um maybe you you dealt with Jonah through I don't know like Frank bantz or
00:43:42
era crash or something but you and Jonah had quite a quite a good one-on-one relationship yeah we did and we worked
00:43:49
at that um oh look he how you would have had nothing in common though no not a lot
00:43:53
just that you both want to win but um he was a phenomenon phenomenon he was just unbelievable it's a it's a what he
00:44:00
could do I look back on his career and you know he was playing at his Peak probably
00:44:07
because it was Health probably at 60 or 70 percent maximum ability and because of his restrictions
00:44:14
um imagine what he would have been like for The Hundreds so now he was fantastic
00:44:18
and he came out of obviously came out of the World Cup in 95 as a superstar yeah
00:44:23
and he was the face of rugby and um and I saw that firsthand because I was over there uh doing the TV commentaries at
00:44:33
the Rugby World Cup so I saw what this phenomenon and what what it was and it was quickly evident to me that you
00:44:40
needed to protect them because he was just being pulled from Pillar To Post everyone wanted a bit of Jonah and so
00:44:48
and of course we went to Africa in 96 which was you know probably one of my greatest memories of coaching the
00:44:55
orbacks was winning that Series in South Africa and Jonah um had come off what a super career in
00:45:02
95 and was struggling with injuries and obviously struggling it was a kidney kidney problem which I didn't know about
00:45:09
but was obviously then affecting him but he had a knee injury on that too so he never really Sean he he was only he got
00:45:17
on the reserve bench once in our test Series in there um you know he just wasn't quite what he
00:45:22
was but I used to watch the public just adored him and and we had to we had to put people around him to protect them
00:45:30
really to keep to to give them so he could could live a life because otherwise his life was consumed
00:45:36
um look we kept we kept contact um you know we we were at as you say we're very different different people
00:45:44
hard to imagine two more different things yeah but we had a fantastic relationship and uh actually am I'm am I
00:45:50
um just imagining this or on one of his homes TV show appearances were you there
00:45:54
sitting next to us yeah yeah yeah yeah 20 marriage broke up and uh so when he no when he when he got
00:46:01
married without telling his parents no no no no no no yeah sorry yeah I think I'm trying to think back right I'm
00:46:07
getting old it's a long time ago yeah yeah yeah but it was one time when uh I went on the
00:46:14
home show with him to help um explain and help him through a situation I think it was the wedding
00:46:20
that the parents didn't know about you're right yeah but you know we had that trust and
00:46:25
respect and uh you know I just um you know tragic the way his life ended so early and um yeah very much so and then
00:46:33
to hear about the financial stuff afterwards uh yeah it's just sad all round that was a sad sad finish to a
00:46:38
great career yeah that's not nice to hear that you guys had that sort of um special relationship with one
00:46:44
yeah how do you like how do you coach someone like him everyone talked about how he was had no defensive skill yeah
00:46:49
well I think with some of those players you don't try to overcoach them yeah
00:46:54
just um play what's in front of them and let them do what's natural but they have
00:46:58
to understand they've got to do the dark side of a game sometimes as well you
00:47:02
know what's that the tackling the Dirty Work you got to tackle and uh you know
00:47:05
those those things are a bit different so but um he was look he always struggled with his Fitness
00:47:12
because obviously of a kidney I mean he he was the worst at doing you know the the the running test that we used to do
00:47:21
um you know he you know he just he didn't have a stamina and I've seen many
00:47:27
times at the end of this particular exercise we used to do to to test everyone you know Sunni and Frank Bunce
00:47:34
Sean going back and running running with him to get him across the Finishing Line
00:47:39
because they all wanted him to play and they wanted them to succeed little did we know what was going on with his body
00:47:44
yeah so that must have been frustrating like at the time I'm guessing um but you
00:47:49
don't even have to admit this but you must have been like [ __ ] is this guy
00:47:51
lazy what's he been doing on the off season must have been incredibly frustrating what's frustrating and then
00:47:56
that's what I started to wonder I did I I sort of said as he really does he really watching what's he about you know
00:48:02
because he just wasn't he couldn't do it the doctor would always my very good
00:48:07
friend John May who who was his doctor he was in an ambidious position because he wasn't able to tell me but he was a
00:48:13
team so Jonah knew it had been diagnosed at this point but he was keeping it a secret yeah they were trying to manage
00:48:18
it right and uh then following it finally in 97 at all all came out 96.97 yeah said you had some good players and
00:48:26
in that time didn't you you had like Jeff Wilson at his prime kalietta's
00:48:30
prime merts Marshall yeah you look back at guys like Justin Andrew Mertens Frank Bunce he was
00:48:38
a Legend um Jeff Wilson um Christian Cullen you know Jonah Lomo and then you go that's before
00:48:48
you go to the forwards and then you go to brookton's and Brook probably one of
00:48:52
the most skillful rugby players that's ever played the game Michael Jones Josh
00:48:57
kronfeld Ian Jones Robin Brook Sean Fitzpatrick Olo Brown cranked out man that 96 team was pretty
00:49:06
special a hell of a team that was a hell of a team were you were you coaching I forget what game it was when's any
00:49:11
scored a drop goal from best part of halfway well is that during your scored two big drop goals as a coach even
00:49:19
though he landed them do you do you tell him off for that or afterwards you're
00:49:22
like what the [ __ ] well we were playing we're in Pretoria and we'd won the first
00:49:27
test of a series and it was a three-tier series and as you know no one had ever won a
00:49:33
series in South Africa before in Pretoria we had to win to win the series or if we lost we went to the last
00:49:41
game in Johannesburg which was going to be a hell of a hell of a hell of a mountain for us because we played eight
00:49:47
11 tests in 13 weeks 14 weeks so it was really we were coming to the end of it and we were just in front and
00:49:56
I see zinni getting himself positioned behind the Buddy rack and I I think no because the
00:50:08
backs were in front of him and I thought no gets it charged down seven points at
00:50:13
the other end of the field should I have worried straight between the first he was a legend a number eight
00:50:21
dropkicking goals you know yeah and and what about um Kelly my old man like how do you how do you coach someone
00:50:33
like that apart from maybe not be so selfish with the ball and pass it a bit more like oh look Kelly was just a
00:50:38
natural um probably the most brilliant gifted footballer that I saw in my time in just
00:50:45
terms of Brilliance um the best football I ever saw was um Michael Jones I think all around but
00:50:52
Kelly was exceptional had exceptional speed um the tries he scored early on you know
00:50:59
I mean he probably suffered a little bit and uh as the game changed a bit and and and
00:51:05
and it became a two pivot game more fullback had to come up and do a lot more of the reading and running a game
00:51:11
that wasn't his strength he was an instinctive player um you know he just did things naturally
00:51:16
and he was brilliant and um you know 9607 he he had some fantastic moments for us so he he scored tries That You
00:51:25
Don't See yeah uh yeah I I you know I have huge respect for him um you know 1999 moved him to Center
00:51:35
criticized you know big blue I had Jonah Tana um Jeff Wilson and um and Cully and and for
00:51:47
just brilliant or the best you could have and we didn't have a center and so
00:51:53
I worked on Christian's game to say that he was there now we lost the World Cup because of that so
00:52:01
say the experts there was no way we lost it oh but there was no way because we shifted him to Santa yeah that didn't
00:52:08
cost us I'd look back at those games he played well and that wasn't a problem at
00:52:11
all um we lost the game because we probably just weren't good enough in the in the
00:52:16
all-round leadership Stakes uh to when the when the crunch came yeah that's got to be annoying hey the
00:52:22
um Monday morning coaches or you know armchair quarterbacks whatever whatever you want to call them it's that's going
00:52:30
to be frustrating as [ __ ] yeah well and and invariably Don people got no idea about the background of these things you
00:52:37
know and they they just look at it very simply are you playing them out of position yeah he's out of position you
00:52:42
know well who said he's not a natural at that position as well you know um and
00:52:48
like I defend that you know I look back probably I probably when I look back maybe Tana might have been a better
00:52:55
Center straight Center than um than Christian entitled did end up there um so you know that would be probably
00:53:02
you know I'd admit that but at the time hindsight's a pointless game though yeah
00:53:07
it doesn't prove much you can't do much with it but um I don't have any regrets
00:53:11
in that way I mean I you know I I think um you know Kelly Kelly would have been he would have found that tough I think
00:53:19
um but you know he's he's a guy that I've watched grow to I think he's he's
00:53:23
growing beyond the you know out of a game he's grown a lot more as a person than he was in the game and um you know
00:53:30
I mean I think back to when we won the series in Africa in 96 and he was brilliant at fullback but he had really
00:53:36
no appreciation of winning the series in South Africa and that's not his fault he
00:53:39
was a young man you know uh so it probably was lost on him at the time you know he couldn't work out why he would
00:53:47
be saying well um Don Clark came up to him in the uh because I know this happened Don Clark
00:53:54
came up to him as the players were coming off in the tunnel after Pretoria and Don Clark was had tears streaming
00:54:01
down his eyes and wanted to meet Christian Cullen now I don't think Kelly would have known
00:54:05
who Don Clark was yeah because that's just uh you know he was a young man and
00:54:10
uh um just uh where Don Clark was obviously in our time and before you know a a giant of the game and and he just loved
00:54:20
the fact we'd finally won in Africa because he tried and failed and uh and I
00:54:25
still see that photo of Christian looking at him sort of who's this guy why is she crying
00:54:31
oh that's scary yeah okay so then came the um the 1999 uh Rugby World Cup which
00:54:38
um I don't know I suppose I was going to say it's bittersweet but it's probably
00:54:41
just better actually mainly better yeah I don't think there was much sweet in it
00:54:45
so um so see you so the All Blacks lost to France in the semi-final yeah and then um in the player for third or
00:54:52
fourth which nobody wants we lost to Africa yeah um I think yeah just moving forward
00:54:59
before we pack on this for a bit so for you as an ex-coach in 2003 and 2007 when
00:55:04
new blacks don't win is there a little bit of relief in you like it see it is
00:55:09
no relief you know what I mean you want them to work yeah yeah but you say well I hope people understand it's not that
00:55:15
easy yes you know um and you're just there's no you don't have a god-given
00:55:20
right to be because we're supposedly the best team God given right to win a World
00:55:24
Cup it never happens that way so um yeah 99 was tough really tough because we'd
00:55:30
come off the back of a really hard year in 98 because we'd lost five tiers three
00:55:35
of them by that much um you know and and it was hard but 99 we we got our act back together pretty
00:55:41
well um we stabilized that we had a really good success we won the tri Nations we
00:55:46
thrashed Australia thrashed South Africa and you know in the tri Nations um and then had a loss to Australia in
00:55:53
the last game before we went to to uh the World Cup and look we just I don't
00:55:59
know we we we're okay at the World Cup um we had some big wins um but coming into France I I was always
00:56:07
worried about France and I remember a saying I had was expect the unexpected and I talked about it in that for that
00:56:15
game because I I thought that's what you had to prepare for um because they were they'll do anything
00:56:20
and look by half time we were dominant um and I still got my team talk that I had on my my on my um on my program
00:56:32
telling what we should do which was just screw them into the corners and don't
00:56:37
give them anything we didn't do that we ran the ball we dropped the ball we we gave them turned
00:56:44
over position and they had 20 minutes of magical rugby where nothing went wrong every bounce just went their way
00:56:53
everything went against us and the game turned and we had a young Captain young leadership
00:57:00
group and I don't know right yeah and I think uh it's not his fault I'm not
00:57:05
blaming him what I'm saying but we had a young leadership group generally and as
00:57:09
a result of that we just didn't really handle the turnaround and and in the end
00:57:14
we got beaten and you know that was that was tragic because we we really were a better side
00:57:20
far better side than France we should have won and had we won the same thing could be said about was it 2007
00:57:25
absolutely yeah yeah yeah absolutely I mean bloody free tickets one game yeah you know and French again look what's
00:57:31
coming up you know look at it let's not look at this [ __ ] I think I think it's
00:57:36
fantastic we're playing France first up that's fantastic yeah yeah so um okay so
00:57:42
so you're the all black coach um you're knocked out of the Rugby World Cup
00:57:45
sooner than what uh definitely what you want um so you're dealing with that sort of
00:57:50
like heartbreak or numbness or disappointment or whatever and then um and then you've got to deal with
00:57:55
everything everything else like how do the immediate like days or hours after that look so you feel that the heat of
00:58:02
the media immediately huge yeah huge um I was I've never been in a dressing room
00:58:08
like a after a game uh the team was shattered um because they were hot favorites and
00:58:15
and we didn't win Randall who's supposed the captain's supposed to do a pre-post-match
00:58:21
interview within I think it's about three minutes or four minutes of finishing was a no stake to do that and
00:58:28
and so I had to front and um and you know I took accountability from the start which I thought you should do
00:58:39
um I I look back and I think I got let down a bit by some of the players in that day
00:58:46
but overall you're still accountable in terms of what them not fronting up they're not doing probably not playing
00:58:53
as they should have or maybe you know going off to going off for team patent a bit okay so some of that but you know
00:58:59
I'd never name individuals in that regard because it's my responsibility
00:59:02
actually you're just pausing here so we've been talking for almost an hour
00:59:05
there's one thing um it's quite striking actually that I've noticed about you in this past hour
00:59:09
you've never you haven't said a bad word about anyone you've never blamed anyone
00:59:12
for anything and I mean you're an old old man now now if you had any schools
00:59:17
to settle now it'd be the time to do that and I think it says a lot about your character yeah I think um you've
00:59:22
got to accept accountability yeah you know and um and I had to and and that was the most difficult period
00:59:28
of my life there's no doubt that um I went through some things after the return
00:59:34
um it was a horrible time in my life and I started really straight up to the game and the
00:59:41
media were into me there was certain media who just wanted payback I don't know what reasons
00:59:46
but they want to pay back or you can name them who well you know Phil Gifford was one oh really Murray dieka was
00:59:52
another really yeah yeah and they they they they they just took aim and and I had to take a decision
01:00:01
um what to do because I was most of the players weren't going home they were
01:00:04
staying in Europe and having holidays I decided um that I would after testing the water with a very good
01:00:12
colleague John Hood who's um was used to a chancellor of Auckland University and
01:00:16
who was someone I employed at Fletcher's and worked for at Fletcher's in the end
01:00:21
um just one person a very special man in my life and I rang him to get the feeling at home and what I should I
01:00:30
resign straight away or should I come back and you know yes this was pre-internet yeah pretty much absolutely
01:00:35
yeah and um I he said it was pretty grim and in the end I advised the Rugby Union
01:00:43
that I would I was resigning the irony was the Rugby Union had talked to me about possibly taking a new role the
01:00:50
following year of you know GM of the All Blacks and under and bring a new coach in which is something I sort of had a
01:00:57
vision on of what you could do in terms of the brand in terms of the whole thing
01:01:01
so all of a sudden I had to make that decision and I made it um it was pretty hard my family were
01:01:08
over there they came home I followed them and arrived back and worst time of my life
01:01:17
yeah so I mean there's there's one incident which um will get into as much
01:01:22
or as little as you want uh involving the the races in Christchurch but so when you get back is there anyone at the
01:01:27
airport yeah there was some media not a lot yeah okay but my family were there and your
01:01:34
wife at the time yeah my wife Judy and my son and daughter yeah Chris how old were they uh well they were um you know
01:01:41
sort of 17 uh sort of you know sort of Ages yeah 18 19 no 20 20 in 2017. yeah and Christ God bless them said to me dad
01:01:54
homesteog starting in the Auckland cup in the New Zealand trotting Cup tomorrow in
01:02:00
Eddington why don't we go down and I thought well maybe that's a good thing
01:02:04
to do get out and you know and so the four of us went down to what's home CG
01:02:10
who was fantastic uh I love horses so I had a lot I've had a lot of fun in my
01:02:16
life with horses and he was he won 13 group once he was just super horse and he was a favorite to win the uh New
01:02:23
Zealand cup with the race I'd never won so we went down there it's the worst
01:02:27
decision I ever made in my life for today that I will regret for the rest of my life and I'll never forget the day
01:02:32
because it was it was horrible um it's quite interesting guys people just abusing you
01:02:39
um so you're in the birdcage area just in the public area walking around whatever right woman totally different
01:02:46
attitude woman empathized um came up to me and congratulated me on my career um men just you know there was just this
01:02:57
and I had this awful the most terrible things ever happened to me I went to the toilet and I'm in there and this guy
01:03:03
comes up to me and said you're uh such and such in the words I can't pronounce on yours you also but it was
01:03:10
the worst words you could hear and he just spat on my face and I stood there and I thought I can't
01:03:16
do it what can I do you know I just and that memory will never leave me and that was that was that was horrible and
01:03:24
um then we go out and the horse the crowd is throwing beer cans at the horse when he goes out on the track
01:03:33
I sort of I looked back and I think the poor horse didn't know I'd lost the
01:03:36
World Cup I mean you know I mean that they're both like alarmingly Despicable
01:03:41
acts but in some way and I should I I feel more sorry for the horse like that yeah I did
01:03:47
too I mean I feel bloody sorry for you as well I mean no no no I'm not looking
01:03:51
for sorry no no no but I mean yeah I'm sorry you went through that like I think
01:03:55
there's a there's a few shameful points in New Zealand sporting history and the
01:03:58
way um the way you're treated I'd say that's number one um the the Butterworth Coupe stuff yeah
01:04:04
that was terrible um Stephen Donald being sent a bullet in the post after a bit I mean it's just
01:04:11
it's it's gross so what was the age of the guy in the bathroom yeah I don't know I can't I can I see
01:04:19
his face at the time I've lost it now thank god um but it was just one of those horrible
01:04:24
moments I just don't think what have I done you know I've done my best I've uh
01:04:28
I've got a pretty good career record I'm I've won a lot of things um but yeah that was
01:04:34
and that led unfortunately to look for two years three years um I went out of I went out of profile
01:04:45
totally I I'd left Fletchers at that stage I was on my own I had my own business
01:04:51
consultancy I did nothing for two years I was hiding from the public uh I didn't want to be
01:04:58
seen what did you just sort of have like a fear that if you if you showed your face anywhere you just lost confidence
01:05:03
yeah really lost confidence and and obviously I was I suffered depression but I didn't know it at that time I mean
01:05:11
we were talking about it talked about we didn't talk about it but even JK was
01:05:15
talking about it no I remember I couldn't cross the road one day I was so scared to cry I like anxiety anxiety and
01:05:21
uh you know my mother and wife Judy took me to Fiji for two weeks to try and to help because I could see that I was in a
01:05:28
bit of a mess and look I had two two years in the wilderness and really did nothing and
01:05:37
um then then a stroke of luck changed my life again um John Bailey the chairman of Bailey
01:05:45
Bailey's real estate um he must have heard that I was struggling I didn't even know him must have heard
01:05:52
that I was I was struggling and he was he was organizing a fundraiser for Team New Zealand and the aim was to run a
01:06:01
six-week online auction everyone contributing items and you know bidding and and then a big dinner and he asked
01:06:08
he came and asked me out of the blue would I would I leave that for him and and I thought well
01:06:16
yeah yeah I decided to I don't know why I decided to because I had no confidence
01:06:21
in myself at that stage but it was immensely successful it got me back on the on the road and more importantly he
01:06:30
then because it was successful he did really well and he a month or so after that he asked me to go on the board of
01:06:38
Bailey's and uh I became his the First Independent director outside of the family to be on the border Bailey's and
01:06:44
uh stayed there for 20 years I just retired a year ago and you know I I owe him and that company so
01:06:51
much so great company I mean I just enjoyed it working with them but you know you needed a break and I got a break
01:06:59
um and otherwise I just don't know what where I'd be and and life life evolved
01:07:03
again and I found myself and found my confidence and and you know went on and I've been doing some fantastic things in
01:07:11
my last 15 years or so I've really enjoyed life again it's been it's been
01:07:14
fantastic I think there's a good message in there right for a lot of people it's
01:07:17
like um you know this too shall pass you know that's um I think there's an
01:07:21
Abraham Lincoln uh quote and things do get better and yeah it never stays stormy forever did you did you get any
01:07:27
professional help in that time or anything no I don't know you didn't even
01:07:30
see um your old mate Dr John no well I didn't know I I well I I really probably
01:07:36
I mean John John I've seen John Mayhew but then we were I yeah it's a hard thing to go back and
01:07:44
think about because I was obviously depressed you know you hear about it today and I was obviously
01:07:50
depressed I mean I can remember that I couldn't cross the road I didn't want to
01:07:54
go across yeah and you know I mean that's pretty that's pretty bad and the
01:07:58
the alarming thing is that and I I suppose it just goes to show like um the way mental illness works it's like like
01:08:05
you weren't you weren't you weren't a cat you weren't enough no you know you
01:08:08
were a man in your 50s yeah and uh yeah well established in business well established established in life but
01:08:13
there was this whole thing in those days you wouldn't admit that no you know yeah
01:08:17
you've got to be bigger than that and better than that and uh still working I
01:08:22
didn't reach out I didn't I didn't know how to reach out interestingly with my
01:08:26
background you would have thought I should have been able to reach out yeah honestly um JK Can't Get Enough praise
01:08:30
for for what he's done like the the the the correct courage in speaking out in a
01:08:35
point it's it's very well spoken about it now you know there's a lot of
01:08:38
ambassadors for um mental health he did it in a time where it was courageous to he he he has just been a fantastic
01:08:47
so much admiration when I look back to that that butcher's Apprentice you know
01:08:52
and I look at what he's done in his life and the inspiration he has been to so
01:08:57
many people um he he's one of our special people you know yeah because of the work he's done
01:09:04
it means you and I can sit here today absolutely talk about this stuff we wouldn't we wouldn't be I mean he's
01:09:08
hoping to do he helped open the door there's no doubt about it absolutely and
01:09:11
it was uh yeah so very grateful for that and it was it was it around this time that you first your first marriage yeah
01:09:18
well how long were you married like 30 years or so yeah yeah in 2002 which was all through my in the times when I
01:09:26
wasn't in great shape to be fair um Judy and I separated we just grew apart to be fair and adulting's hard
01:09:33
isn't it yeah and that was life's hard I regret I regret the way that happened I
01:09:38
don't regret it happening because I'm in a great space and so she yeah you know
01:09:43
and um we've got two of the most fantastic kids um fantastic family and and Kay and
01:09:49
Chris are so important to me um and I'm so proud of what they've done in their
01:09:54
lives I mean they're just they're stunningly successful uh and they're
01:09:58
both beautiful kids and so you know went through a tough time um and my new partner died six months later
01:10:09
um yeah I remember breast cancer I thought I um heard something about this um I looked for some information online
01:10:15
but it's sort of pre-internets there's nothing there so she was there physiotherapist she was a yoga teacher
01:10:20
right yoga teacher and in her 30s and uh all of a sudden you've got breast cancer
01:10:25
and died within six months so I sort of Life had really collapsed for me again and uh
01:10:34
um your 50s were rough yeah they weren't great great but you know then I've met the you know the dream of
01:10:42
my life you know um die my wife now you know I was introduced by Paul Collins to support
01:10:48
Paul and Rosie Collins um Paul became a great mate to we were on the sports Foundation together for
01:10:54
about 11 years in the 90s um and uh Rose Rosie his wife is guy's best friend and she had a view that
01:11:03
Rosie decided that guy and I should get together and she planned it and we got together and here we are we got married
01:11:10
in 2014 and uh you know she's just a wonderful part of my life and my kids love her uh and we you know
01:11:19
life's fantastic but um you know sometimes you've got to go through difficult times to have have great times
01:11:25
as well but you know I always look back on my marriage too and say you know um we we grew two fantastic kids and um
01:11:32
you know I will always uh respect Judy so much for that yeah well I mean I don't know what the
01:11:39
uh the stats are when it comes to marriages but when you get married there's a high chance that it's not
01:11:43
going to work um it's a funny thing isn't it because I'm I'm um I'm still legally married but
01:11:47
me and my wife broke up like maybe five or six years ago and uh because you stand in front of all your friends and
01:11:53
you make promises that you're going to be with each other till you die anything
01:11:55
less than that feels like a failure yeah but realistically if you're with the
01:11:58
same woman for 30 years and you have two kids I I don't think you've got to be
01:12:02
happy with it I don't look bad now yeah at all I mean I just um you know I I
01:12:09
just look at my kids I live my life through the kids still you know we Diane I've just come back from um Phuket where
01:12:15
um my son and his wife Missy and the three three grandkids uh Jack and Bella and Rosie 11 nine and three
01:12:23
um you know we went up there and my daughter uh Kay and her husband dinga they they live in Bangkok
01:12:29
um Kai's a superwoman people got no idea what she knows but she's she works for
01:12:34
Ford and um she's um I got her when I was all about coach in 99 she needed a six-week
01:12:42
um role to complete a degree she came out of aut doing a marketing degree and I went to Ford and said would you mind
01:12:49
employing Kay for six weeks just for practical experience you never had to do this practical experience thing well she
01:12:56
ended up being employed they liked her so much they employed her full-time and she's been running she's been running
01:13:04
countries uh she's and she's now the president of Ford international markets
01:13:09
so she's got 92 countries reporting to her I mean she's got a humongous job and
01:13:15
I'm just so proud of her and uh I can I can tell the way your eyes light up and
01:13:19
you smile well I mean she's just a you know Wonderful success story unknown here but you know she's done so well and
01:13:26
and Chris has done so well in business he was chief executive of ear works who are a prom
01:13:33
new zealand-based company he grew that and he's taken some time off now and his kids in here and
01:13:40
off to Europe to five months and life's pretty good you know I just uh yeah and
01:13:46
more importantly to me than their successes is there uh is that Amina they're just wonderful kids and the
01:13:53
wonderful people and and people love them so you know you can be very parenting's so important you know I
01:14:00
think if I look at society today if there's one issue I'd I'd say as as
01:14:04
question is questioning when I look at crime and health and education yeah it's
01:14:09
that word parenting going across everything because you know I learned great parenting through my mum and dad
01:14:14
who had nothing but gave us everything uh you know um and I I just think it's it's there's
01:14:21
no better uh there's no better thing in your life than to see your children being successful but more importantly
01:14:26
being good children good people you know if they're successful as well that's
01:14:30
great but being good people yeah how did you um speak of them like how did you navigate it during um the 90s when all
01:14:37
this show was going on yeah it was tough I mean those sort of adults I guess at young adults in their own right because
01:14:43
you don't need to sit down as you would like intermediate age kids and how yeah
01:14:46
how do you how do you get through that yeah look wasn't um it wasn't that wasn't easy but they
01:14:52
were 20 yeah 23 24 and um you know they got backlash as well from well no not really but the
01:15:01
they probably they felt what I went through and they saw it and they felt it and uh they were hurt by it
01:15:10
um whether they got backlash themselves who knows I mean they may have they didn't talk about it but but
01:15:17
um they felt for me and and what was going on so and they were both very strong supporters and stayed with me and
01:15:25
um you know very important part of my life yeah that was pretty social media as well yeah imagine yeah just imagine I
01:15:35
just don't imagine Dom I just hate the thought of you know I mean with respect
01:15:39
social media's life today but there's some real downsides of social media in
01:15:44
terms of what it's doing to our community but honestly every single person I've
01:15:48
had on this show no one until now has has ever encountered someone being mean to them in real life like everyone's had
01:15:55
abuse online but no one Dr Ashley Bloomfield said the the worst thing he said is someone coming out to him saying
01:16:00
I hope you have a horrible day but compared to being spared on in a [ __ ] bathroom at a horse race mate that's
01:16:06
nothing and that is outrageous yeah and it was probably all the other things were going on on that day as well you
01:16:13
know drinking and the abuse from other people okay seeing the poor bloody horse time so he got beaten by nose he must
01:16:21
have known it wasn't safe for him to win he got beaten he's like I've been hit by
01:16:25
cash and it's quite interesting because um I think Jenny Shipley was the prime
01:16:32
minister at the time and she heard a few things that had gone on because we went
01:16:37
home that night straight after the race we went home and on the Friday as what they call New Zealand free for all it's
01:16:43
uh where all the couple horses race again and in home cg1 and I obviously I wasn't there I was at home and I'll
01:16:52
never forget that that um the phone went just straight after the race and it was Jenny Shipley who I
01:16:58
didn't really know but she was prime minister and she was down there to make
01:17:02
a presentation she said look I heard what happened to you on uh well Tuesday and I just want to
01:17:08
congratulate you um on winning this race I'm sorry that you can't be here to
01:17:11
share it but we're thinking about you and I thought that was that was really
01:17:14
nice yeah it was nice that was really nice yeah so um how do you process that fact do you you go back to your hotel
01:17:22
room are you are you just furious with rage are you shaken up are you upset yeah well you're upset
01:17:29
um I didn't know how to talk about it even really at the time how did it come
01:17:33
out did you did you bring it up or did someone else I wasn't someone else right
01:17:37
I'd mention it to someone and I think they've got okay released I didn't go
01:17:41
out publicly yeah that's how it came out but um you know that's that look that's
01:17:46
gone um that was just a a a a bit of a blip in the in the journey and uh you know I've
01:17:55
I've come back stronger yeah I don't yeah sorry a little bit but I just can't get over
01:18:01
how outrageous it is but someone someone chances are that person's still alive so
01:18:05
someone's walking around today yeah knowing that they they did that yeah and
01:18:09
I hope they feel immense Shame about it an embarrassment maybe they don't I don't know I don't know I mean you know
01:18:14
you must you must feel like this as well because what when I was in my 20s I so when I was in my 20s and you became all
01:18:21
black coach at 50 I saw 50 year olds and I thought they were [ __ ] old yeah and
01:18:25
I thought they knew everything and had it all figured out now I get to 50 and I realize everyone's just learning all the
01:18:30
time absolutely evolving and growing so that person I don't know what age they'd
01:18:35
be now but there's someone walking around that is probably mortified by how they acted that day I hope so who knows
01:18:42
where they are yeah yeah so um how's the risk of your life looking what do you reckon another good decade left
01:18:48
another good two decades well look I'm just um I'm sort of semi-retired but I
01:18:53
am working so hard on two things that I'm passionate about you know I'm um I
01:19:00
created this tournament golf tournament um something happened from 2004 I was invited to play in the
01:19:09
Dunhill classic the Dunhill age you Dunhill at uh Saint Andrews the the Pro-Am event yeah yeah and
01:19:17
um which was really nice and because those invitations are not easy to get and I
01:19:23
and out of that out of that tournament came to Fantastic things that happened to me
01:19:29
firstly I was paired with Eric Watson um as he was the other amateur in my group so we played together for three
01:19:37
days and he put the hard word on me too come to the Warriors to help him with the Warriors who were struggling a bit
01:19:45
and I said no I could not ever turn my back on Rugby rugby was my love and I said no and um and I the other thing was
01:19:54
that I learned about this combat this tournament and thought wow you know at the time I was on the PGA
01:20:00
board here as an independent director they asked me to come on and help them as an independent director
01:20:07
I said well some event so anyhow it evolved two years later every year and a half later he kept hammering me and I
01:20:15
finally decided well rugby hasn't reached out to me at all since 99. I mean it's quite
01:20:22
interesting looking back after I resigned I never heard from New Zealand Rugby Union
01:20:28
never for years yeah it's kind of a slap in the face really right now you'd say it
01:20:35
just wouldn't be possible today but in terms of in terms of the lack of Duty of
01:20:39
care or yeah well both really yeah uh but primarily just common decency I thought at the time but you know it sort
01:20:47
of so I sort of thought well maybe why wouldn't I do something different and so
01:20:54
I agreed to go in there and I had five of the best years of my life there at the you know it was uh we we turned
01:21:01
things around um I help recruit and put Ivan Cleary in as coach um we had some wonderful times
01:21:11
um 2011 we had all three Warriors teams in the finals at uh in Sydney on the on the
01:21:17
final day final you know we had under 20s our Reserve grade and our Senior Team NRL Team all playing off in the
01:21:24
finals which was just fantastic um and um you know so I had a I've got to say I've
01:21:31
got a soft spot for the Warriors because I had five great years there um they made a tragic decision they
01:21:37
should have really done a lot to try and keep Ivan clear as a coach I mean he's gone he's done all right with
01:21:43
Penrose he's gone on to be one of the greatest he's probably the best coach
01:21:46
I've seen he's a fantastic coach um and it's not it's not lost on me that
01:21:51
Andrew Webster who's now doing a fantastic job with the Warriors was a protege of Ivan Cleary at the Panthers
01:21:59
and uh I often think back maybe if Ivan was still here we might have a son playing
01:22:04
for us as well Nathan oh Nathan yeah he's not a bad football honestly but I had you know fantastic five years there
01:22:09
and um and then I came off that and uh I came up with this idea to run this golf
01:22:15
tournament and um went down and saw Michael Hill and I said you know how about we try and run a PGA Championship
01:22:22
as a Pro-Am not heard of a big tournament and and he liked the vision and he and he's
01:22:30
a Visionary himself um and so between us we employed Michael glading who became a really become a
01:22:36
really good no Michael he was the boss of Sony music and he's still running the New Zealand
01:22:41
open today we've been together for 12 years and um we created this event and
01:22:47
it evolved after two years of the PGA Championship um you see when golf came to me and said
01:22:53
because the New Zealand open was going backwards and our tournament was going upwards and they asked me if I'd take
01:22:59
out make the tournament the New Zealand open and um and which was quite that was
01:23:05
quite a um I was really proud of that because there's no open played in a Pro-Am
01:23:10
format around the world every anywhere and so we created this tournament and recreated it in 2014 and now it's um
01:23:19
it's it's just a great event it's a international class event it's um you
01:23:25
know it was when we started I think their budget was just under a million dollars and our prize money was about
01:23:29
400 I think we're now at six million dollars we've got International backing
01:23:35
we've got 60 70 of our money comes from International uh across you know Korea
01:23:42
and the states and Indonesia um uh whereas Hong Kong you know people who are supporting us
01:23:51
um and it's one of the three biggest events on the australasian circuit um and it's growing and it's a it's a
01:24:00
it's a it's an event that's showcasing the best of New Zealand it's bringing
01:24:04
huge profile names to New Zealand who end up investing government have been a great supporter of a tournament because
01:24:09
they see you know the television pictures alone coming out of Queenstown are pretty special and so that takes a
01:24:16
lot of my time um and I you know sort of went from the Warriors into that and um
01:24:23
and then five years ago New Zealand rugby I got a call from New Zealand Rugby and
01:24:29
saying a long time no see yeah just about and remember us yeah for the 2011 World Cup I was actually
01:24:40
chairman of a task force they end up chairman of a task force um to um to maximize the benefits of the
01:24:46
World Cup for New Zealand so yeah they brought me back in to do something that was government really yeah a time here
01:24:51
was a lot of wounds yeah it does but it does it's a it's a it's a funny old
01:24:55
thing isn't it this is something that we we didn't talk about at all but um so
01:24:58
the 2011 World Cup what was the score in the final seven six yeah yeah yeah so nine seven nine seven it's a knife like
01:25:05
Graham Henry he he would have been um he would have been kicked out of the country spend the rest of his life in
01:25:11
the south of France or two losses um you could have end up 2007 2011 could have been there yeah imagine that but
01:25:18
it's a fine fine line between becoming a legend and being deemed a loser yeah
01:25:22
yeah it doesn't seem fair yeah no no I think you just got to accept those things that's that's life but you know
01:25:28
um but then the New Zealand Rugby Union had brought out the interest of the private
01:25:34
shareholder in the Blues and asked me if I'd become one of our directors and so
01:25:38
last five years I've been um working really hard on the blues helping helping put together a really good team
01:25:45
and we've now got a great team of people off the field chairman you board UCO new coaches I mean everything's
01:25:53
changing and it's quite exciting we've still got a long way to go but I've
01:25:57
thoroughly enjoyed that and and now when New Zealand Rugby wanted to get out of his shareholding
01:26:03
um I helped with Grant Graham bring together a group to buy the shareholding and so we're part owners of a place now
01:26:10
but we've got some great people involved as owners and yeah so I'm sort of
01:26:15
retired love golf still got my horses and um you know cheered the New Zealand open and on the board of the Blues and
01:26:25
I'm doing things now I'm passionate about yeah you know I just want to do I
01:26:29
want to give to what I love love love love seeing and love doing and um yeah life's pretty good life's pretty good
01:26:36
yeah as it should be and um you send me a text um last night of um your granddaughter holding both of granddad's
01:26:42
books um what would you two kids say about you you're a bit of a better grandfather
01:26:47
than you were a father did they complain about it yeah yeah I can tell you love it you love
01:27:00
being a Granddad and uh yeah you're busy doing projects you're passionate about
01:27:03
and you still have so much to offer as well yeah well I'm sort of I you got to
01:27:07
realize you know getting to the age I'm getting it's uh uh there's limited time
01:27:12
ahead but my whole resolve is just to keep enjoying myself and keep contributing and um you know being the
01:27:20
best I can be and um and and enjoy myself and you know I think that's um you know I've got some great mates
01:27:27
um we we play a lot of golf we have a lot of fun and and friendships are so important to life and yeah and those are
01:27:34
the things that I treasure and and work hard at yeah well I'm sorry you went
01:27:37
through that dark patch but I'm pleased that you've gone through it oh look I'm
01:27:41
a better person for going through it yeah absolutely no no I I don't look back at
01:27:47
that with uh I it wasn't a great part of my life but you learn to become resilient you learn a lot about yourself
01:27:55
you know I think it taught me that um I I would have thought you were resilient anyway like you you yeah all those knock
01:28:03
Downs when you were going for the all black job yeah I I think I was but I think it it it it showed me how to
01:28:10
bounce back and that was important you know I mean um a lot of people don't um and and I probably as I say I owe
01:28:20
people like John Bailey um Paul Collins or some special people Hugh Fletcher I look back you know I've got some special
01:28:27
people who go back to my Fletcher days when I first started at Fletcher's a guy
01:28:31
called George Fraser who wouldn't be known to me he was Sir James's right
01:28:35
hand man he was a communist he was chairman of TV3 it was it was everything everything different he was my mentor
01:28:43
and I've always remember something he said to me he said for you to be successful there's one thing you must
01:28:50
remember never forget the most important thing in life and I didn't know what I was going
01:28:55
to hear here and he said common sense and I I think I've survived on Common Sense and and I look back at what he
01:29:03
taught me I'm not an intellect you know I I'm I'm I deal with people that blow me away you
01:29:10
know but I think in common sense terms I I can see through see what's right and
01:29:16
wrong and and see see Pathways and I think that's that's always been quite
01:29:20
important for me are you a good communicator and you're truthful as well yeah well that's I think Communications
01:29:25
have to battle isn't it yeah no and I'm being prepared to front I mean I was a
01:29:29
bit reluctant to do this as I told you um yeah why so but I'm not seeking publicity really I
01:29:40
mean I'm I'm where I am now but when you talked about it the way you did you know
01:29:45
share your life and I just think there are lessons to it and I I think um you know I came out of a a whole
01:29:52
background where I grew up in the state house uh just had you know lovely family
01:29:58
life didn't have anything really in terms of um anything certainly didn't wasn't born
01:30:04
with a silver spoon in my mouth I mean yeah we had nothing um but boy I had everything you know I
01:30:09
had a great schooling I love Mount Roscoe grammar you know I achieved there I sort of and it was all
01:30:16
about parenting my parents were so great and so um I'm so grateful for that so and I
01:30:21
think I look back and while I don't want to get out there publicly but you know there are lessons that you
01:30:29
can share you know um that you can share to you know good times and bad times and I thought when
01:30:36
you spoke to me I sort of I talked to a couple of people I trusted and they said
01:30:41
you should do this and yeah you told me this Kerry Woodham was one who works at music ZB yeah I'm staying and she was
01:30:47
really strongly saying you should do this it's good and he's a good man and
01:30:51
you know it's going to be good for you and and um yeah so as I said to you I
01:30:56
was a bit I was a bit dubious about doing it but I've really enjoyed it and it's um well it's mate it's been a hell
01:31:02
of a life so I feel like it's one that's worth um reflecting on because I I feel
01:31:06
like even at your age now you're still looking forward and looking towards the
01:31:10
next thing um but you've done a lot so it's nice to like pause and look back and enjoy some
01:31:15
of those moments I think yeah yeah and that's it made me it's made me just
01:31:18
talking to you has made me reflect a lot on my life and there's been a lot going
01:31:21
on there you know and and to be fair ninety percent of it's positive there's
01:31:26
no there's not much that's not so but the 10 make you better yeah and you
01:31:31
think about how many players that you that you coach that are considered great players even though they never want to
01:31:35
win a World Cup oh my God the list is too long to to name um but I think it's the same with
01:31:40
coaches as well just because you didn't win a World Cup on your own it doesn't
01:31:43
mean you weren't a great coach yeah I look back at my record and he speaks for
01:31:48
itself you know 88 I can I can put up if I had if you put all my International coaching and all my Auckland coaching
01:31:56
and New Zealand cultural first class career I know that my record will stand a test of any of them but it's not
01:32:03
recognized like that because I didn't get a World Cup but that's okay I don't
01:32:06
go to bed worrying about I didn't get a World Cup I go to bed thinking that you
01:32:11
know I've had a lot of fun yeah well that's exactly my point no one's saying
01:32:13
Jonah yeah not bad you're gonna win a World Cup though um oh one one final one this might be
01:32:21
the thing that gets uh picked up in the news if anything um so the Rugby World Cup's coming up
01:32:27
you said something about the Ian Foster thing like you you were asked to comment
01:32:31
on that so you thought um Ian Foster was a bit hard done by with the look I have recently I don't think
01:32:39
um I'm slow coming backwards on that one I don't think it was handled really well
01:32:43
at all um I think what went on last year when he went through that bad patchwood
01:32:48
Island and whatever um I I think it was treated pretty roughly personally by the the New
01:32:54
Zealand Public or the nzru everyone right I think collectively media I think he he took uh and I've just been
01:33:01
um delighted to see him successful I mean it's quite interesting to me um I think
01:33:07
the introduction of Joe Smith and Jason Ryan have enabled him to be the coach he
01:33:14
needed to be um I think he probably made a mistake in the in the quality of the people he had
01:33:20
with him and and having to get rid of his assistance um but he made that move um and he's brought in two world-class
01:33:28
people and as a group now they are looking a lot stronger and and I only wish him well I had a couple of hours
01:33:35
with he and Joe Smith just last week before last week's test and it was really refreshing I was really
01:33:41
respectful of listening to him and talk about the game he's he's he's he's he's
01:33:45
he's a lot smarter than people giving credit for in the game in the game of rugby I think a lot of people wanted to
01:33:51
see him fail and that's that hurts you know I've seen that um and and the Robert Scott Robertson
01:33:57
thing you know that was in the background all the time um look I I think um he's gonna he's
01:34:03
he's got as good a Chances with the World Cup and the world up in 2023 it's going to be an immensely Hard
01:34:11
One to Win particularly because of a draw the draw is right against all black South Africa France and Ireland the best
01:34:20
four teams are in the same two pools so come quarterfinals two of them are gone and you're going to see Australia and
01:34:26
England go through on the other side Australia who aren't an average team I I'm almost certainly will say we'll get
01:34:32
in the semi-finals and and yet we could get out knocked out at the quarterfinals
01:34:36
because we're going to have to play South Africa or Island to get through but I've got a feeling about this world
01:34:42
cup that the first game will be the last game what is that until like the final I
01:34:47
reckon who's the first game first games France versus all blacks and I reckon
01:34:51
that'll be the final I think you would say that you've been stung by France
01:34:55
before yeah well actually New Zealand's been stung by France they're right up now Ireland and France
01:35:02
are the top two teams in the country in the world at the moment South Africa showed their weaknesses
01:35:07
last week by just believing they could come over here and Bashas and physically and found that we didn't we weren't
01:35:13
subdued and and that's why I thought your Black Performance was outstanding physically and then our skill was too
01:35:19
much for them um but they'll be better for it I wouldn't write South Africa off day you
01:35:24
won't see that starting team play next time you know they they they they I think they probably got a bit arrogant
01:35:30
in this election thought they could physically beat us and then bring their best on to really
01:35:34
to destroy us and it didn't quite work for them so they'll be very competitive
01:35:38
but I think France Australia France see all blacks and um Ireland South Africa they are the four best teams
01:35:44
unfortunately two aren't two are not going to get through but I do believe if
01:35:47
we win the quarterfinal we we can meet France in the semi-final in the final are you still fully immersed in rugby
01:35:54
you enjoy it you love it you you know I'm totally immersed in the world in the
01:35:57
blue Hoosier Warriors and the blues you know I've sort of I loved that I've
01:36:01
spent a lot of my time there I've created a family foundation for the blues and um you know got a whole lot of
01:36:07
people involved in that supporting getting you know getting out and getting some really great names in Auckland
01:36:12
supporting the the blues and and I'm loving that so I'm yeah I'm passionate
01:36:16
about the game look I'm a passionate kiwi I just love New Zealand uh I don't
01:36:22
necessarily like what I'm seeing in New Zealand at the moment yeah it's not
01:36:25
quite the country that I love and and hopefully you know we that gets turned around and you know listening to what
01:36:32
happened today you know yeah we're filming this on um Thursday July 20 and there was a shooting this morning
01:36:40
in commercial Bay and yeah I went to work with a gun and yeah he's dead and two other people who did as well it's
01:36:46
awful that's sad and particularly I thought it was really sad given that it's on the eve of you know the FIFA
01:36:53
World Cup the Women's World Cup right big event for New Zealand so if not exactly the publicity we want but you
01:36:59
know I've got a lot of my mates saying to me you know they're thinking about leaving
01:37:03
no way I could leave I I believe in this country and we'll we've just got to get
01:37:08
through it we've got to we've got to be better we've got to be better I love the
01:37:11
attitude I think that's a good place to end it John Hart a hell of a lot and um
01:37:15
I don't know if we're if we want to look at like a game clock you're into the
01:37:19
maybe the last quarter yeah I don't know I don't know I'm well under
01:37:23
the last quarter I don't know as I said you just before we started recording I
01:37:27
had um Arch jelly sitting in the seat a couple of weeks ago John Walker's Old
01:37:30
Coach who's about to turn 101 so you just never know you're looking great I
01:37:34
don't know if I'll get to 101 but thanks for having me I've really enjoyed being
01:37:36
on the program I appreciate it John Hart a great New Zealander [Music] [Music]