00:00:00
When we watched Once We Warriors growing up, we thought that was a comedy. We would compare Week's black eyes to mom's
00:00:05
black eyes. Oh, mom's black eyes are way bigger than Biff's. Like, I know like
00:00:08
dad's way crazier than Jake the Mus because he was derogatory, abusive behavior was just a constant part of my
00:00:15
childhood. Um, one of my experiences of childhood trauma was being stripped naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked
00:00:22
at because of how my body looked. Whenever cousins and family members came around, if they wanted a good laugh, my
00:00:28
mom would just yell out to my siblings, "Go get Matt, come in, strip them naked,
00:00:32
and just laugh. Laugh at me and my genitals." The push back I got from my community
00:00:36
speaking up at 15 was massive. Bro, don't talk about this, bro. You're bringing dishonor to our families,
00:00:42
especially your parents. So, it was either speak up or take my own life. My mom held a machete to my neck. And she
00:00:47
said, "You're not leaving." And I said, "Well, mom, either you kill me now or
00:00:50
I'm going." And then her arm just dropped and she just cried. And I think
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she she she cried because she knew she felt that she had failed. >> Had she failed?
00:01:04
No one's asked me that. How do you reflect on her life? [Music] Sad. [Music]
00:01:18
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:22
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:25
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:29
hole in one in it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
00:01:36
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:39
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.
00:01:44
Generate. Putting performance first. Matt Brown, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you, brother. Thank you for having
00:01:56
me. Massive fan. >> Actually, >> honestly, I followed you for years and I
00:02:01
always seen your guests and I just think, man, be cool to be on that guy's podcast one day.
00:02:05
>> Oh, man. I was so pleased we connected. This isn't um your first time in in the
00:02:09
studio here. Uh because you've been in here to record a couple of your own podcasts.
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>> Um >> Yeah. And I've just been in awe of having you having you in here because um
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I don't know you you just have this um this calm about you like this this this
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presence like you're the coolest guy in any room you go into but you you don't
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even need to speak or do anything. You just sit there and you've got this presence about you. It's hard to hard to
00:02:33
explain. >> No, thank you bro. I try I try I try and be the quietest guy in the room.
00:02:38
>> Yeah. Are you are you introverted or shy or is it just because you know you um
00:02:42
your wife Sarah like she's she sort of does the speaking. She's a ball of
00:02:45
energy. Um, no. Yeah, I'm a I'm a real introvert, so I like my own space and I
00:02:49
just I'm comfortable being quiet. Like, I don't need to try and impress anyone
00:02:53
or say anything to fill in the gaps. I like quietness. So, >> I think it takes quite a lot of
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self-confidence to be like that, like to not have to be, you know, >> I think I'm just I'm comfortable in my
00:03:06
own skin. Um, I know who I am and that's taking years and years of work obviously
00:03:10
to come to that place. And I still I still find myself finding myself, you know, it's it's a journey. Yeah. Not a
00:03:18
destination. >> How old are you now? >> 39, brother. >> Yeah, mate. I'm 52. It's it's ongoing
00:03:23
all the time and there there's always work to do. Uh always self-improvement,
00:03:28
you know. There's always room to be better. It's cool. It's an exciting part
00:03:31
of the journey of life. >> 100%. >> Yeah. So, I got this book off um Mighty
00:03:36
Ape over the weekend. >> A >> She is not your rehab, which is phenomenal.
00:03:40
I've not given you a book. I've come in here a few times. I've never given you
00:03:42
one. >> Sorry, bro. >> I know. We were looking around for it the other day. I said, I'm sure Matt
00:03:48
left a book here, but I >> I'm pretty sure I did the first time I got here. But
00:03:50
>> yeah, >> there's this um this children's book. This is This is not yours to carry,
00:03:55
which I've seen all over uh Instagram over the weekend. This is brand new. >> Yes, we just launched it this week here
00:04:00
in Tamaki Makoto. to our brand new children's book which is targeted at um children u mainly for those who are
00:04:05
living in homes of violence but really it's targeted at any child who wants to
00:04:09
learn how to regulate their emotions >> and your your daughter um Oshana she did
00:04:14
the uh the illustrations >> yes our oldest girl illustrated this whole book with her mom and writing so
00:04:19
this was a labor of love many nights of work downstairs drawing my wife um not happy with some sketches and then she
00:04:27
going back to the drawing board um so it was definitely a labor of love She thought it was just going to be a few
00:04:31
pictures and it ended up turning into a children's book. So, >> mate, it's um it's a beautiful book.
00:04:36
>> Thank you, brother. >> Excuse me. And I'm sure it's going to be
00:04:38
a great resource as well. >> How can people get hold of it? >> Uh they can jump onto our website she is
00:04:43
knowhab.com and um it's up there available. You can actually go on there and donate a book. So, we're working
00:04:48
alongside many organizations, schools, refugees to try and get this book into the hands of children who actually need
00:04:54
it. So, if you can go on our website and click on the donate button, we can get those books out. So, um you're Ocean
00:04:59
Oceana's dad, but not her biological um father. So, she she she came as part of
00:05:05
the relationship. How old is she now? >> She is 22 years old. >> Is she the one that that was not allowed
00:05:10
any sleepovers? >> No. >> Never last. Well, none of our kids have allowed sleepovers. We got two younger
00:05:16
ones who are age 10 and seven. And so we always tell our oldest girl, you make sure you tell your little siblings how
00:05:22
how the go is because yeah, I think look, working in this sector, working in this field of family violence, sexual
00:05:27
abuse, trauma, um we see it more often than we we don't want to, you know, um
00:05:34
the the harm that happens behind closed doors. And it always comes from unfortunately people that we know,
00:05:39
family members, friends of the family. And so my children they're not allowed
00:05:43
sleepovers. >> So >> I mean, who really needs a sleepover anyway? you can go hang out your friends, but
00:05:49
when you when it's time to close your eyes, you can come back home and close
00:05:51
your eyes. >> Yeah, that's a that's a good point. I um yeah, I heard that over the weekend on a
00:05:56
couple of podcasts you you've been in and it um it made me really upset actually that it's that it's that rife
00:06:02
>> and I suppose this is this is like part of my privilege where it's just not it's
00:06:06
not something that was um sort of on my radar at all growing up. It's it's
00:06:09
heartbreaking, mate. >> It is heartbreaking. I mean, my wife's got a a good friend who's a GP and she
00:06:14
comes across stories like this all the time. And she said to us, you know, if you if you removed um sleepovers, you
00:06:20
would remove about 80% of the cases that she has to deal with of sexual abuse when it comes to sexual assault.
00:06:26
>> So, >> it's alarming. It's alarming. And and yeah, in one of these podcasts, I heard
00:06:30
you you say like it's it's not even if you know the the nuclear family in the
00:06:34
house, you don't know what visitors they're going to have in the house as
00:06:36
well. Yeah. >> And then you involve alcohol, substance, you know, in the house. You just never
00:06:41
know. >> Yeah. >> I mean, we went to pick up my daughter who was who went to a friend's party.
00:06:45
She was in high school >> 16 and she refused to come to the car. Um, but we checked in with her parents
00:06:50
and the mom invited us. Lovely. As she said, you come in for a drink. We're just having a few G&Ts. Um, but then I
00:06:56
seen all these other people in the house. You know, it was a party and I was like, well, I said, where's the
00:07:00
girls? Where's the kids? And she said, oh, they're somewhere in the back. I'm
00:07:03
okay. The fact you don't know where the kids are right now in the situation while everyone's drinking um is a red
00:07:08
flag to me. >> Yeah. And and you've got a very good reason to be this protective and h have
00:07:14
um these red flags. Um yeah, there's a there's a lot to talk about. Um but I'm
00:07:20
also aware of the fact that you've done a lot of podcasts. So you you talking
00:07:25
about the old stuff and the old the old wounds. Is it is it hard for you to talk
00:07:28
about or >> No. Um cuz I mean it's part of my story. It's not to me it's not so much
00:07:33
re-triggering or retraumatizing myself because it is what it is and I continuously do the work um to navigate
00:07:40
those my story but I also have amazing supervisors and counselors and therapists who I have on hand if I need
00:07:47
to offload and let some steam off. >> Okay. Yeah. Let's go back to your
00:07:53
childhood. So earliest memories. >> Earliest memories um growing up in my household. I mean the first thing that
00:07:58
comes to my mind is violence, chaos. Um, my first experience of family violence in my household was Christmas that I
00:08:05
have a viv vivid memory of. My father and mother got into some argument. I don't remember what the argument was.
00:08:12
And then all I remember was this Christmas tree, our Christmas tree, which only had a few lights on it, a few
00:08:17
balls, colorful balls. Um, was lifted up in the air and then tossed at my mother.
00:08:22
And then I remember my mom lying on the ground in tears. and my two older brothers um who are not much older than
00:08:29
me um jumped on mom and covered her from our father. Um so that was my first me of of violence. Um my happiest memories
00:08:37
of my childhood was would probably just playing with my my brothers, my siblings, you know, just like every
00:08:42
other Kiwi family, Polynesian family, rugby, rugby league. Um but violence was the constant memory right throughout my
00:08:50
childhood. >> Like what sort of frequency? every if not every every day, every other day. Um
00:08:57
we would often be at women's refuge. I had visited every woman's refuge home in
00:09:01
Christ Church where we grew up in. I was born here in Oakuckland, but yeah, raised in Christ Church. Um you know, at
00:09:08
all our rugby games, my old man would be standing on the sideline with his big trench coat holding his can of beer. Um
00:09:14
Foster was the the the brand that he always drank. >> Oh, the Australian one.
00:09:19
>> Yeah, the Australian one with the big F. The blue can with the big F. Um, and
00:09:22
it'll just be, you know, colorful language, verbal abuse, um, at the referee, at us. One try was never good
00:09:29
enough. Um, two tries was never good enough. Um, so just, yeah, derogatory, abusive behavior was just a constant
00:09:37
part of my childhood. And honestly, like me and my siblings now, we sit in a in a
00:09:42
table and we talk like how did we all not end up, you know, incarcerated? growing up in the childhood that we grew
00:09:48
up in the environment that we grew up like it's sometimes we sit there and laugh and our partners and our wives are
00:09:52
are looking at us like dumbfounded like how do you guys find this funny >> and we're just like well it's either we
00:09:57
laugh about or we just sit here and cry but we've done many years of crying you
00:10:01
know and wallowing in our pain and trauma and we just got to this point where no longer are we going to be a
00:10:07
victim of our story. this is not going to ever define us but is what we do with this pain and how we transform this
00:10:14
>> um to move us forward. >> Yes. So it's a big family. So um let me
00:10:20
know if I've got this right. So there's like five boys and four girls from a
00:10:26
previous >> So three girls from a previous relationship um on mom's side.
00:10:31
>> Yeah. >> Um I had another sister, younger sister, but we lost her um at birth. So, nine of
00:10:36
us all up, but five of us um fullblooded brothers living in the same household. >> Where were you in the birth order?
00:10:44
>> I'm the middle I'm number three out of the boys. >> So, that middle child syndrome
00:10:49
>> I kind of had waving around my head growing up. >> Yeah. You know, I wondered that cuz I
00:10:54
wondered if you were the eldest in the family because um you know, you just have these real sort of leadership
00:10:57
qualities. >> Thank you. No, not that. >> Um what about your four four brothers?
00:11:02
How how are they? Are they they all good? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, we're all very
00:11:06
connected. Um, we lost my mom 4 years ago to cancer, which was probably the hardest time for all of us. Um, cuz she
00:11:12
was the gel, the glue that put us all together. Um, but after losing mom, it really, we were really confronted to
00:11:19
have these hard, we've always had hard conversations in our family. Like every
00:11:22
Christmas, we'll come together and have, you know, tears and, you know, moping
00:11:27
around just about our upbringing and how mom dad could be better, especially our
00:11:30
father, you know, wanting him to be better. But nothing ever really changed until we lost mom. We kind of got back
00:11:36
together and said, "Man, we need to really heal together as a family because, you know, we don't want to be
00:11:42
passing the anger and the the violence and not so much physical violence anymore. It's more verbal stuff. You
00:11:47
know, the overreaction or the dysregulation that we would often see when we were together. I think just that
00:11:53
trauma knowing that this was so normal, you know, us getting upset or just one sibling saying one thing that will set
00:11:58
off another sibling, that violence and chaos was just so normal for us that we just had to really um nail it on the
00:12:04
head and confront it. And so it's been beautiful. We're all in good places. Um
00:12:08
my baby brother was in the NRL. He just retired recently. Um >> what team?
00:12:15
>> He's played for a few teams. He played for He started off at the Sharks. uh won
00:12:19
a premiership with them. Then went over to the doggies. Then went over to the roost. No, not the roosters. St. George.
00:12:27
Um and then I think where did he finish? I can't remember where he finished.
00:12:31
>> Unreal. What's his name? >> Final Brown. >> Incredible.
00:12:33
>> Yeah. So he played for the Kiwis in Samour. He's in the tour Samour team for
00:12:36
the World Cup that came second. >> So >> how how is it that you all turned out so
00:12:43
like well adjusted, you know, happy and healthy? I think I mean we I mean I will give
00:12:49
credit I only can speak for myself. Um I give credit to the people in my life. I
00:12:54
think uh I've had beautiful superheroes who have come along my life and and really shown me empathy and compassion
00:13:01
for my environment cuz I've been speaking up about my story of family violence and you know suicide ideation
00:13:07
since I was 15. >> You know 39 years old now. I look back and I think, man, like the the slack,
00:13:14
the push back I got from my community speaking up at 15 was massive. You know, bro, don't talk about this [ __ ] This
00:13:20
happens to all of us, especially in our Polynesian community. All my island boys
00:13:23
were saying, bro, you're bringing dishonor to our families, especially your parents. Like, we don't talk about
00:13:27
this stuff. It's happening to us, too, but don't talk about it. So, it was
00:13:31
either speak up or take my own life. I chose to speak speak up, and I'm I'm
00:13:37
glad I did. I'm glad I did and do because I've learned that my story is not unique.
00:13:43
>> Yeah, I'm glad you did too. Not just because you're still here, but because
00:13:46
you've made such a profound impact as thousands of other people as well. >> Thank you, bro.
00:13:51
>> Were there any glimpses of joy in your childhood? >> Honestly, the only times of joy was
00:13:58
probably with my siblings. There were moments of joy of seeing mom and dad happy. um you know after a Friday where
00:14:04
dad will you know start when he'll pick up his first can but we knew it wouldn't
00:14:08
be too long after that um where a fight would break out. Um so there were like glimpses of joy but it would all it
00:14:16
would soon be overthrown with chaos and violence and fighting >> for you and your brothers as well or was
00:14:22
it mainly your mom that was the the target of his anger? >> All of us but mainly mom. Yeah,
00:14:29
>> mainly mom and mom would try and often protect us, you know, she'll step in.
00:14:33
Um, especially for my older siblings and for me just watching and witnessing, you
00:14:37
know, the violence that was happening, mom would always step in and when mom would step in, then she would get the
00:14:41
brunt of it. >> Was it always alcohol fueled? >> Yeah, always alcohol.
00:14:52
Yeah. I mean, um, your mom even made jokes that alcohol was his second wife or Was that the joke?
00:14:59
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. But it's like it's not it's not funny at all. And it seems like it would
00:15:02
have been such an easy fix, right? >> I mean, I get it. Like I mean on this
00:15:07
journey of of healing and and and forgiving my old man, you know, I don't want to paint my father as this monster
00:15:13
because when you understand intergenerational trauma, you know, he came from the islands with little to no,
00:15:19
you couldn't speak English, little to no education, came in the 60s, lived through the dawn raids, racism, was
00:15:26
running strife obviously, but you know, we needed the islanders to work here in this country.
00:15:30
>> Um, and so my father had his own struggles and so his only outlet and release was alcohol. you know, and I'd
00:15:36
always ask the question, well, these other islanders that are not drinking, you know, why couldn't you be one of
00:15:40
those islanders? But obviously, for whatever reason, my father chose to pick up the drink, and this became his,
00:15:46
>> quote for quote, his second wife. >> Yeah. >> What are your recollections as a as a
00:15:51
young fellow of woman's refuge? >> Cold. Um, and the funny thing, even
00:15:56
though there was no violence, like we were there, it was a safe home to get us away from the chaos, we were so used to
00:16:03
the violence, we wanted to go back. like it's it wasn't home. Like these sheets
00:16:06
that we were sleeping in that were neatly folded, our beds were well done, but it's it didn't feel like home. I
00:16:13
think we were just so accustomed to the chaos that we wanted to go back home. Even if dad was there, we wanted to go
00:16:18
back home. And that cycle just carried on. >> Yeah. Cuz chaos was just your normal.
00:16:22
Yeah. What about your relationship with police? >> Didn't like the police at all.
00:16:28
>> Yeah. >> Um especially cuz I mean my recollection was when they would come over. now
00:16:33
understand that they were trying to protect mom and us, but it was just the way that they, you know, placed their
00:16:37
hands on our dad. You know, they were aggressive to dad. Um, and and now I look back now, well, why wouldn't you?
00:16:43
Because my dad was, every time the police came, it would be him cursing at the police, telling him to f off. Um,
00:16:49
but yeah, we just didn't like them. >> It's an interesting insight. I I asked
00:16:54
that and I asked that about Women's Refuge as well, cuz I wondered if like as soon as you get to Women's Refuge,
00:16:57
it's just like, you know, I can breathe now. Or when the police arrive, you're
00:17:01
like, "Oh, thank God. the chaos is going to end. But >> yeah. >> Yeah. Well, when the police we my mom
00:17:06
would often ring pretend to ring the police to try and calm my father down. So whenever he seen
00:17:13
my mom, you know, pick up the phone, say, "I'm going to ring the police now
00:17:16
and pretend to dial 111," my dad would just chill out. And so often she wouldn't ring the police. So we we knew
00:17:23
that it was really really bad when the police would show up, you know, but often mom would just use the police as a
00:17:28
way to calm him down. >> Yeah. And what did your childhood teach you about love?
00:17:35
>> It taught me that chaos and violence and love can all coexist. [Music] >> When when you look back now um like as a
00:17:49
man, are you pissed off at your community at all? like you know your neighbors um
00:17:55
church congregation teachers or whatever like that there was no one there to save
00:17:59
this little boy. >> Yep. Yep. When I when I sit I have these conversations with my brother and this
00:18:07
is I don't really talk often about this. I don't think I've ever talked about
00:18:10
this publicly but 100%. I think you guys knew the violence that was happening. I
00:18:17
remember going to church um in one church hall. It was a Catholic church we attended which is just down the road
00:18:24
from where we lived. And I remember um the whole congregation came out running and screaming and people were in tears
00:18:32
and there were a bunch of ladies um covering this one lady and as this one lady who came out who was obviously
00:18:39
hovered by these other women she looked up and it was my mom you know just blood
00:18:43
coming down her face and I just stood there like oh you know it didn't even wasn't in tears but I was just like this
00:18:49
is now happening here at church. I would have been about six or seven. But I just
00:18:54
remember we just went back home. We went back home with our old man. Mom and dad
00:18:58
got into an argument over there and I don't know what happened. But um I remember my auntie telling us
00:19:03
kids to come into the church and as we walked in and I just remember seeing blood all over the the walls.
00:19:11
But in an hour's time we were back home. We were back home with mom and dad, you
00:19:14
know, and the fighting carried on. Then the police came over that night. Um, but I just thought, wouldn't any of you
00:19:21
guys come over with us? But no one was there, you know. Wouldn't one of you guys have taken us home with you or, you
00:19:26
know, do something? Stepped in, separated my mom and dad, but no, we were just back at home. So, am I pissed
00:19:32
off at my community back then? Of course. Um, I'm pissed off at people who hear the violence in our communities,
00:19:38
but refuse to say anything or step in, you know, because those children who are living in those homes are our children.
00:19:45
you know, those children become men who perpetrate violence, who perpetrate crime on our streets. They're children
00:19:53
who are doing ram raids, um, stealing, all those things. It affects all of us. And so, me personally, how you I'm still
00:20:02
pissed off at those people. >> Why do you think no one intervened? >> Shame, culturally, you know, the stigma
00:20:08
around it, you know, out of out of mind, out of sight, out of sight, out of mind.
00:20:13
But the thing that was in sight, you know, but y'all just chose to ignore it.
00:20:18
Um, and the cost of that are now men who are angry. I mean, I I use my anger for good and try and channel and do the
00:20:28
work that we're doing. You know, I am angry, but I'm using it for good. There
00:20:32
are other many men out that I work with around this country, around the world, who are so angry, they're not channeling
00:20:37
it for good. If anything, that's been now transmitted onto their partners and
00:20:41
children whom they claim to love. Did did your dad sort of wear a mask at all and they like he saved his worst
00:20:50
behavior for the family like in the confines of your house or >> 100%. >> Yeah.
00:20:54
>> 100%. I mean a lot of our culture I mean not just specifically our culture but in
00:21:00
many cultures it's all about face. It's how you portray yourself in front of
00:21:04
society in front of your workmates in front of your colleagues. But there are many hurting men, hurting children,
00:21:10
hurting boys underneath these grown as men who are just bleeding all over women and children who never cut them. My
00:21:17
father was one of those, you know, in in church. He was this, you know, uprighteous man who
00:21:23
remained sober on Sundays. Um, but from Monday to Saturday was chaos. >> Yeah. What's your relationship like with
00:21:31
religion now? H it's I wouldn't say so much religion like the the how do I put this into words
00:21:49
church as an institution I don't have a relationship with >> um but as someone who has faith in a
00:21:56
higher being I I would say I I still am in touch with my spiritual side. Um but in regards to giving money to a
00:22:06
building, um that's yeah, I'm not >> not getting you. No, no, no. Fair
00:22:11
enough. If I met you as a teenager, what sort of guy would I have met? >> You would have met a a quiet boy.
00:22:19
>> Really? >> Yeah. A shut down boy. >> Yeah. And even now like I I mean I
00:22:23
travel all the country speaking about this and I I meet friends who childhood friends who come up to me and they
00:22:28
always say, "Man, we had no idea that you were just so like loving and kind
00:22:32
and quiet. We had no idea that you're going through what you're going through." Um but you know, you check my
00:22:38
story with my siblings, this ain't made up. Like this is stuff that happened in
00:22:43
the household. You know, all when all five boys can our stories all correlate, you know, all connect to one another.
00:22:50
Like this was our real life story. This ain't made up. Like when we watch Once
00:22:53
We Warriors growing up, >> we thought that was a comedy. We would compare Bethy's black eyes to mom's
00:22:58
black eyes. >> Our mom's black eyes are way bigger than Be like I know. Like dad's way crazier
00:23:03
than Jake the Mus because he was our dad was out the gate. >> When did you discover Tupac?
00:23:12
>> I think my older brothers. >> So my my older brothers were all into
00:23:15
the whole hip-hop gangster rap. >> Yeah. Um, so naturally that was the music that I listened to growing up.
00:23:21
>> Yeah. So like teenage years. >> Yeah. Well, I mean right from my childhood, you know, I grew up in the
00:23:26
80s listening to hip-hop. Um, and for me it wasn't so much the Pretty Girls and
00:23:31
the flash cars and them hanging around spar pools and video clips. It was their stories of pain and trauma that
00:23:38
resonated. So I've always loved the the lyric the the words um lyricism the art
00:23:43
form of lyricism through hip-hop. To me, that was another window to life. Most of
00:23:48
us brown kids who grew up in Alteor, our heroes were the All Blacks, you know, John Alom, Michael Jones, that was the
00:23:53
era I grew up watching. >> Unfortunately for me, my country club was KFC. And so I never excelled in
00:23:58
sports like my my siblings. >> What your country club was? >> I love my Kentucky Fried Chicken too
00:24:05
much. >> Oh, who doesn't? What are those secret herbs and spices? Yeah.
00:24:09
>> Um, yeah. Well, I mean, you Tupac, you know, he's he's not your your your
00:24:14
regular sort of hip-hop artist, is he? Like, he's a poet. Like, he's a genius.
00:24:17
Are there any particular lines or lyrics that sort of kept you going? >> Oh, changes. His songs changes. Um, you
00:24:24
know, just the early Tupac before he joined Death Row and became, you know, this angry man. And again, if you look
00:24:30
at him, he was a man. If you look at him, the angry Tupac gangster rapper, >> there was a little boy in there who had
00:24:37
no father present. You know, he was looking for love and so he found that love through this label with Sug Knight
00:24:42
and Defro. >> Um, but it was his pain through his lyrics that really resonated with me,
00:24:47
>> you know. >> And you left home when you were 15. >> Yeah. Can you remember
00:24:55
um like the the last time your dad raised a hand at you? Great question. Um, it would have been
00:25:06
when I left home, we were home for Christmas and he was just off his face drinking drunk. Um,
00:25:13
and he started going off at mom and I remember standing in front of mom in the kitchen on Christmas Eve and I said,
00:25:20
"Nah, not happening." And then he just looked at me, "You [ __ ] move out of the Lloyd." And I
00:25:25
said, "Not happening, mate." And that was it. He just walked away. Um, I've
00:25:32
never laid a hand on my father. Many times I've wanted to, but I never have.
00:25:36
Um, >> what is that? Is that like a a respect thing or it's you're just a big bigger
00:25:40
person? >> A respect thing, but also respect for myself. >> Like I've I pride myself in regulating
00:25:46
my emotions. >> Um, yeah, I I pride myself in doing the work to regulate my emotions. And I always
00:25:53
try and see when I'm in that environment. There's been cases where in my neighborhood where I hear domestic
00:25:58
violence and I, you know, I step in and knock on the door and I just stay regulated, you know, and I I try and see
00:26:03
beyond the man who is angry or causing the havoc and just speak to the the inner child that I'm standing in front
00:26:11
of because grown men do not throw tantrums. >> Children throw tantrums. You know,
00:26:16
children are allowed to throw tant tantrums because they're still learning how to regulate their emotions. So, if
00:26:20
you don't know how to regulate your emotions, I'm now going to speak to the
00:26:23
little child in front of me. not down at them but you know speak to them of adoha and love and I always see
00:26:30
it works. >> So when you leave home at 15 like what do you do day one? It's that's
00:26:37
it's a painfully young age to be leaving home right? >> Yeah man I remember I told my mom the
00:26:42
day before I left that I was leaving and my mom said no you're not. Um and then
00:26:48
the next day I had my bags packed. I had my one duffel bag, um, sports bag, had all my clothes in it. There weren't many
00:26:58
clothes. And I remember saying to mom, "I'm leaving today." The boys were
00:27:01
outside. My flat mates were outside ready to pick me up. And um, my mom held a machete to my neck. He said, "You're
00:27:09
not leaving." And I said, "Well, mom, either you kill me now or I'm going."
00:27:13
And then her arm just dropped and she just cried. And I think she she she cried because she knew she felt that she
00:27:20
had failed, you know, like why is my 15year-old sudden leaving home at 15 years old? Um because home wasn't safe
00:27:27
anymore, you know. So >> had she failed. No one's asked me that. I think she felt she failed. I don't
00:27:39
believe she failed because I I I try and believe that mom did the best with what
00:27:43
she knew with what she had, >> you know. I and I would often ask mom, "Why don't you leave dad? Like, he's
00:27:49
going to eventually kill you, you know, going in and out of refuge, lining up at
00:27:53
the food bank, sleeping in the car with my siblings. Like, dad's going to kill
00:27:56
you one day. Why don't you just leave him?" And my mom's response was always,
00:27:59
"Son, what else can I do? I don't have any other options. I don't have any
00:28:03
money." You know, she relied on the system and the system failed us many times. And so I really believe I choose
00:28:11
to believe that mom tried her best with what she had with what she knew. Um and so I don't hold it against her that she
00:28:19
failed, you know. >> Yeah. And I don't know. I find the older I get, the more I actually know, the
00:28:25
less I know on the big scheme of things. And nothing's ever nothing's ever that
00:28:29
black and white. No. >> Um and if you if you're heavily religious, you know, may maybe you
00:28:35
leaving a marriage is just not an option. Yeah, exactly. And and for women, some women who have left, I work
00:28:40
with men who work with Faro who families where women have left and the the the consequences to that have been life,
00:28:53
have been death, you know, tragic. Tragic. Well, it seems like um like from the picture you've painted of a young man,
00:29:03
it seems like you've always you've always been like this um zen chill dude
00:29:06
that that's the man that I've come to know now, but was there a moment when
00:29:11
you decided what sort of man you wanted to be or >> Yeah. Do you know what?
00:29:15
>> When I left home, I decided I did not want to be my dad. >> I didn't want to be from a really young
00:29:19
age. >> From a really young age, I just knew. And I think that's what music like
00:29:23
hip-hop, art, you know, creatives that I witnessed on television, movies and and
00:29:29
books really gave me a different window. Like I knew what was cool and what I wanted to be like. I knew what I didn't
00:29:36
want to be like. I was living with someone whom I didn't want to be like. >> So you're 15, you leave home. How do you
00:29:43
start healing yourself? >> Well, I moved into a boy's home. And this home was full of boys who had
00:29:48
similar stories. Um, and I was just on that journey of of really trying to find who I was and what I I
00:29:56
wanted in life. Um, and then I met my wife in my adult years. Um, while I was cutting here, she was we became best
00:30:03
friends, me and Sarah. We were friends for 4 years. Um, she was living over up here in Oakland. I was down in Christ
00:30:09
Church and then she moved away to the Cook Islands. Um, I was a joiner by trade and then for one all of a sudden
00:30:17
one day I woke up and I wanted to cut here >> and I told Sarah over the phone while
00:30:21
she was living in the Cook Islands and she said, "Oh, my father, my dad um used
00:30:25
to run a hairdressing business called called Civil." >> Yeah. And so I said, "Oh, all this time
00:30:30
we've been friends, he never told me this, you know, I didn't know because he
00:30:33
obviously retired and left the business." >> Um, but yeah, he reached out Paul um her
00:30:38
dad reached out and said, "Oh, if you're serious about barbering, come up to
00:30:40
Oakuckland and you can learn under one of my barbers." So he owned a few barber
00:30:44
shops up here. And so then I came to Oakland for a couple of months and just sat in a barber shop just off of Queen
00:30:49
Street and just sweeped the floor and learned off this old Turkish barber. >> And so that was my journey of really um
00:30:56
getting into my career. And then it was talking to men which really set off the journey of healing was listening to
00:31:02
stories of men similar stories of mine men who were living in beautiful relationships, happy marriages and these
00:31:09
guys became my teachers >> you know and so yeah I think for me the the journey of healing has been a
00:31:15
journey you know not I don't think I'm at that destination yet >> as zen as I may come across I'm
00:31:21
definitely >> but also yeah I don't know if you ever arrive at that destination like there's
00:31:25
always um you can always be a better person even when you're awesome like you
00:31:29
are. Um, but you you you ran through a lot of information there. We're going to
00:31:32
drill down on some of that stuff soon, like the um yeah, the meat cute with your your wife and um how you managed to
00:31:38
get out of the friend zone after 4 years. >> There's a lot to talk about. Um but just
00:31:44
a couple more on your on your parents before we close that chapter. Um uh you wrote that your mom never left your dad.
00:31:50
Um she escaped. Can you elaborate on what that means? They broke up um a few times throughout
00:32:00
my childhood. Um I remember my mom my dad actually had left my mom for another lady and for about a year and so it was
00:32:08
just us. I thought man I was on top of the world. Home was like violence free. >> Um mom I just seen this man a new glow
00:32:15
on my mom you know she was there was no one else in our life but she was just herself like she was this strong woman.
00:32:22
she was working multiple jobs to, you know, keep the lights on. Um, and home was just happy. And then I remember not
00:32:29
knowing that mom was probably also feeling lonely. And so I don't know how my dad came back into the picture, but
00:32:35
the first day my dad came back after over a year, he told me to open up the garage door. And I said, "Now you open
00:32:41
it up." That response ended up me getting a hiding. Um, on the first day that they got back into our lives. So I
00:32:49
think mom and I remember looking at her. She was sitting at the kitchen table um
00:32:53
inside the house cuz that window was staring right at the garage and um she just yelled at my old man, you know,
00:32:59
stop, leave him alone. But um that was Yeah, I think just that chaos, that cycle of violence was just a
00:33:07
continuous thing right throughout my upbringing until I left home at 15. Years after then I think mom just had
00:33:13
enough. You know, it was my two little brothers who were still at home. Um, and then yeah, I think mom just had enough
00:33:19
and ended up breaking up with him. And so he ended up moving out. They were separated for a couple of years until
00:33:26
her last her last years of fighting cancer. >> They were just friends, but they were
00:33:32
living together, weren't together, but just friends. >> Um, you described cutting your your
00:33:38
dad's hair for the last time while he was in hospice. Um, what was your relationship like by that time?
00:33:43
>> No, my dad my dad's still around. >> Oh, he is. No, no. It was um I cut his
00:33:47
hair when we opened up our barber shop. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Instead of cutting a ribbon, I
00:33:52
decided to cut my dad's hair. >> But I wanted to publicly forgive him >> and I wanted to tell him I'd written a
00:33:58
letter and I I wanted to read it out to him in front of my community, all my peers, all my clients because I wanted
00:34:04
to model when we talk about healing. When you tell men to do the work, most men usually respond, "What does doing
00:34:10
the work look like?" Like what does that look like, mate? How is that tangible?
00:34:14
I found in my work when you're telling someone to do the work or teaching people how to do the work, you have to
00:34:20
model that yourself. So, what better way to model this than invite my father in for the opening of our barber shop and
00:34:26
forgive him publicly. So, I stood there reading this letter that I written to my
00:34:30
father, a heartfelt letter of forgiving him. In tears, I looked around the room and you know, we had gangsters, opposite
00:34:37
gang members in the room, police clients, lawyers, doctors, just standing there in tears.
00:34:43
And unfortunately my dad rocked up drunk. So he was sitting there while I'm giving this public apology like just
00:34:49
looking at everyone's like why is everyone crying? Not even all there you know.
00:34:52
>> But that's where I really learned that forgiveness wasn't about him. It was
00:34:56
about me. It was for me to let go. Because if I held on to this anger and this resentment which would turn into
00:35:02
bitterness, >> I would just trickle that down onto my children. >> So again, if I wanted to be a father, to
00:35:08
be the father that I never had, >> I knew what not to be like. M >> and that was my old man.
00:35:15
>> He he doesn't deserve your love. >> Eh, >> some would say,
00:35:19
>> but um yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm still I'm still navigating that, you
00:35:26
know. Is it for myself? I mean, some some of my boys like, are you doing it for your own ego? It's like, no, I'm
00:35:30
doing it for myself because I don't want to be this man who just harbors so much
00:35:34
anger and resentment. >> Unfortunately, this is the cards that I was dealt with. This is my old man. Um,
00:35:39
I still love him and I choose to forgive him daily. But I also have compassion for him cuz in this journey I've learned
00:35:46
that he too was abused. He too was horrifically tortured as a child, you know, and so being uneducated, coming
00:35:53
into a country where you couldn't speak English properly, you know, and you just
00:35:55
worked the 9 to5 factory work. I mean, his his solution was the booze, the alcohol, you know. So,
00:36:04
unfortunately, he just didn't have adequate help. >> Yeah. Yeah, if you come at it from a
00:36:08
place of um like extreme compassion, you could Yeah. I mean uh he came to New Zealand at a time where this was
00:36:14
supposed to be the dream, right? Come here for like better wages, better conditions, better life, and you end up
00:36:19
with you usually factory jobs with barely enough, you know, money to put food on the table.
00:36:24
>> Um is he proud of you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's proud when he
00:36:28
sees us on the news. We're talking about domestic violence, obviously sharing our
00:36:32
stories. Um, my little brother, one of my younger brothers, often sits with him and shows him, you know, oh, this is
00:36:37
what, you know, Matt's up to at the moment, >> and he always says he's proud.
00:36:41
>> Is he embarrassed? >> I think he's embarrassed. Actually, I know he's embarrassed, but he doesn't
00:36:46
fully grasp the giant how this movement has to what this movement's turned into, you know.
00:36:54
Um, he doesn't fully grasp it because he's not he's not a social bunny. He
00:36:57
just goes to work and then comes home and has his few cans of beer, you know. >> Oh, he's still a drinker.
00:37:03
>> He's still a drinker. >> Um, yeah. Are there any moments like now
00:37:08
where you will see glimpses of your father and you? And if so, like how does that make you feel?
00:37:15
>> No. >> No, not at all. >> Not at all, bro. >> Yeah. >> Not at all. I mean, I have there were
00:37:19
moments when my son was growing up. My son's now 10 years old. There was moments when he was three, four, five
00:37:27
where I would just tear up. Um I was like, man, how I wish my dad treated me the way you, you know, how I treat you,
00:37:33
how I wish my father loved on us boys, how I love you, you know, cuz I love you so much. I don't I just couldn't fathom
00:37:40
doing to you what my dad did to us, you know, like beating up mom, cursing at mom. I would never speak to your mom in
00:37:46
front of you guys like that, you know? Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not
00:37:48
perfect. I've definitely been disregulated. No one can disregulate me more than my wife. You know, my wife
00:37:54
knows how to, you know, get in there. >> But I've never ever, you know, cursed at
00:37:58
her, cussed at her or called her names in front of our children, you know, >> let I mean, that's just something that
00:38:04
we've had agreements on in our relationship, never to call each other names,
00:38:09
>> so and that's hard when that's that's all I ever heard, >> you know.
00:38:13
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's all you know cuz um yeah the household I I I grew up in um
00:38:17
Catholic household. There was never any domestic violence but there's always a
00:38:20
lot of shouting. There was um alcohol use and then when I left home and got into my first couple of relationships,
00:38:24
it was the same sort of thing like um and a lot of that may maybe it's teenage
00:38:28
love or whatever. You know, you don't fully know how to have an adult relationship. Um but as I got into my
00:38:33
20ies, I thought it's just not normal like having a a relationship where you're having shouting matches all the
00:38:38
time. >> Um yeah, I'm exactly the same now. Can't tell you the last time I had like an
00:38:44
argument like that. Like a shouting argument. >> No. >> So, um, meeting Sarah,
00:38:50
what were your toxic traits when you met her? How old were you when you met her?
00:38:55
>> Great question. Um, 26, I think. >> Yeah, I I I asked that since like 13
00:39:01
years ago. I asked that because I think I heard this in a in another podcast you
00:39:04
did or maybe the TED talk. Um, >> no, I think 23. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Sorry.
00:39:09
>> 16 years. because she um she told you you had to do some work before before you'd go out go out with you.
00:39:15
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. We were best friends for so long. I mean,
00:39:18
she was the my first receptionist in my little barber shed. So, I had a barber shed where you could only fit two of us
00:39:24
in the in the barber shed full haircut. Um and then my friend at the time, Sarah, was sitting in her red car. I
00:39:32
forgot what brand it was. Um type of car sitting in her red car doing all the appointments, you And so she was my
00:39:38
first she was the OG receptionist and all the clients said, "Oh, you guys hooking up? You know, you guys should be
00:39:43
together." I'm like, "Nah, we're just friends." You know, cuz she had
00:39:46
>> our oldest girl, Ocean Oceana, right? Oceana was a young young girl. And I
00:39:50
just I never wanted to be that guy that just played on, you know, her heart. Oshi's heart. I wanted to be respectful.
00:39:56
So until I was sure, I had my own [ __ ] going on. I had my own pain and trauma that I had to deal with, you know, so
00:40:02
I'm not now going to pass that to you and you have to do the work for me. Um,
00:40:05
so she knew all this stuff. She knew my lies. She knew the stuff that I, you know, kept hidden cuz she was, she
00:40:12
became my safe place where I could talk about this stuff and not feel judged. And that's the thing I always loved
00:40:17
about my um my wife now was she was never judgmental. She always held the space and just listened. And I never
00:40:23
obviously had that, you know, um in the environment that I grew up, mocking was normal. you know, you share any of your
00:40:30
heartfelt or vulnerable stuff traits with your boys, mocking, you know, um you'd be laughed at, told to harden up,
00:40:38
swallow a concrete pill, like all those >> toxic things. And so, um yeah, she
00:40:43
became my first safe space where I could really unload about the stuff. And so, naturally, it just progressed into a
00:40:50
relationship. >> And when I asked her to answer your question, yeah, I said, should we make
00:40:56
this a thing? And she was a bit shocked. Um, but her knowing my story said, "Well, I love you, but you need to kick
00:41:02
your ass into the therapy. Get some help." Cuz >> you not had any therapy at that stage?
00:41:06
>> No. I mean, I've not clinic therapy. I've had like counselors, people who are
00:41:13
counselors like sit with me and talk to me who are my friends, but not go to a proper, you know, professional with the
00:41:18
whole degree sheang. >> Um, and so I did. I checked into therapy and she came with me and she sat there
00:41:24
listening to because I really love this woman and I wanted to do this work. You know, I knew that asking her out that
00:41:30
she was going to be the one that I married. Being friends with someone for 4 years, like I know everything. So,
00:41:36
you're the one I want to spend my life with. This is not a trial and error. Like, we're going to make this work. I'm
00:41:40
going to make sure I make this work. And so, yeah, invited her to come to my first therapy session. And so she sat
00:41:45
there listening to everything. Listen to me disclose, you know, my addictions, my
00:41:50
fears, my anxiety, everything to the therapist. >> What were your addictions?
00:41:55
>> Pornography, >> right? >> Yeah. Pornography. I never I never
00:41:59
um I was never a substance user, never drank alcohol. I never touched alcohol till I was I was 26. So yeah,
00:42:06
pornography was my main addiction. I got a whole chapter on that on our she is not your rehab.
00:42:13
>> Was um you was there part of you that was scared of um asking her to go from being
00:42:20
you know a best friend from four years to being a romantic partner in that um you know if she said no it could have
00:42:25
like impacted the friendship potentially >> 100%. It would have like I just thought
00:42:29
>> that's why I knew I wanted to make it work and I invited her to my first
00:42:32
therapy session because >> I didn't want to lose my friend you know and we're putting this all on the line.
00:42:38
Um, I don't want to break her heart. I don't want to break her daughter's heart
00:42:41
cuz I I came to love Oceanana now, you know. >> So, yeah, I was of course I was nervous.
00:42:48
>> Did what role did she play, if any, in healing your heart? Obviously, she is
00:42:53
not your therapist. >> Yeah. >> Oh, man. What can I not I could talk a
00:42:57
whole podcast about my wife. >> Yeah. I see you guys when you're in here, right? Like, um, you're so in love
00:43:02
and you're such a powerful team together. >> Thank you. Um, look, I I wouldn't be
00:43:07
where I'm at today, you know, and I often say, you know, she's not your your
00:43:10
um rehab, which is the slogan of our book and our movement. Um, but she can be your safe place. She is your greatest
00:43:17
cheerleader. Um, and that's what she has been for me. You know, she hasn't done
00:43:20
the work for me, but she's encouraged me to do the work. >> Um, and she's a very boundaried human,
00:43:25
you know. Um, I can't do that for you. If you're not willing to do that yourself, how are you expecting me to do
00:43:30
that when I've got my own [ __ ] that I have to deal with, you know? Um, but yeah, 100% don't believe I'd be the
00:43:38
man I am today if not for her. I mean, she's made me the father I am today. She's given me my three beautiful
00:43:43
children. >> So, my father's barber. So, from what I can gather, you originally wanted to be a teacher.
00:43:52
>> Yeah. Why did you want to be a teacher? And that's the thing like growing up
00:43:56
with these childhood experiences, adverse childhood experiences, which are traumatic experiences in your childhood,
00:44:03
when you're met with empathy and compassion, you can heal those. I was fortunate to have a music teacher in
00:44:09
school who goes by the who a lady who goes by the name of Mary Rustin, blonde hair, blue-eyed lady whom I thought,
00:44:16
what do you know about, you know, our stories? and all of us mischief kids who were up to no good. We resonated with
00:44:23
her when she disclosed to us that she too had gone through a lot of trauma. She too was addicted to meth drugs and
00:44:31
went through rehab. Um and so when she told that to us, "Oh my gosh, you have
00:44:34
our ears. You have our hearts." And so just the way that she kept us kids in
00:44:39
school, it was because of her why I believe most of us stayed in school and finished school. If not for her, I don't
00:44:45
think most of us would be would be here still today. Yeah. >> Um, so you see that in movies like
00:44:49
Dangerous Minds and you know different, you know, American movies like that where it just takes one teacher.
00:44:54
>> She was that teacher for us. Um, and so because of that, >> I wanted to be a teacher. Like I wanted
00:44:58
to give to other kids what she had gifted to us. >> [ __ ] That's so powerful. So nice. Yeah.
00:45:04
When did you last see her? >> Would have been 10 years ago. >> Yeah. So nice that you give her a shout
00:45:13
out cuz you hope >> I always talk about her. >> Yeah. And you hope this information gets
00:45:17
back to her. I'm sure it does. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. What was it? Was it just
00:45:22
compassion that she you >> compassion and empathy? >> It's when you feel seen and loved and
00:45:29
acknowledged, >> that's really where healing begins, you know. And so when I sit with men who are
00:45:35
incarcerated, men who have committed some of the most heinous crimes in our country and I sit and listen to these
00:45:40
stories, society paints them as monsters, perpetrators, you know, all the nasty things that they have done.
00:45:45
And hey, you're allowed to. You're you're a victim. You've been hurt by
00:45:48
this man who's done some evil things. 100%. Be angry. >> Now, as a community, we can come in and
00:45:56
sit with these men to help them heal and talk with them so they don't carry on
00:46:00
the cycle. And so when I listen to the gentleman's stories, I soon learn that they too were once
00:46:06
upon a time a victim themselves. >> So until we heal that victim within that
00:46:10
man who was sitting behind the wire, >> we're never going to see cycles broken.
00:46:14
>> Yeah. >> So if we want a generation of cycle breakers, we have to work with those
00:46:17
with perpetrator violence because they'll just go back when they've done
00:46:19
their leg, get released, they go back into homes where little boys are waiting for dad Superman to come and be healed
00:46:26
and be more present. Are they going to get a healer version, a more healed version or a more angry version
00:46:32
>> of their dad? >> So, why didn't you follow through on being a teacher? You ended up leaving
00:46:38
school and um training to be a joiner. >> Yeah. Um I took a year break and I went
00:46:43
and worked with my boys who were all joiners, you know, just hang out with them. And I've always liked creating
00:46:48
things. I love using my hands to create things. Um but that year turned into a couple of years where I got my trade. Um
00:46:55
and so yeah became a joiner and then I just moved into barbering. >> I suppose what I do now I teach I go
00:47:01
around the world teaching emotional literacy >> um to police social workers all around
00:47:06
the world and so in some way I'm teaching but not an official teacher. >> Oh no I mean the teaching stuff you're
00:47:12
doing now and yeah we will get to all this um but it's far more impact than than teaching kids you know the alphabet
00:47:19
or the times tables. I mean that's important but yeah. >> Yeah 100% it is. So um the backyard
00:47:25
barber shop. So it was a a tin shed in Adanui um called my father's barber. Why
00:47:30
the name? >> Well it started from my faith. Um I grew up Christian >> and so it was a play on words because
00:47:36
you know I think when I think of the tradition of going to a barber a barber shop you know most kids their first
00:47:43
experience of a barber shop is going with the old man. So it was that whole you know going to my father's barber. Um
00:47:49
then I also for growing up in my faith um where I I always wanted I looked at God as a father figure you know when my
00:47:57
own father wasn't the best father figure. So I imagine that this god that lived up in the sky was this beautiful
00:48:03
father. And so I thought in order you know how would a father treat the most vulnerable in our society? I believe
00:48:10
that they would treat them with kindness, compassion and empathy. M >> and so I wanted to represent that idea
00:48:16
of what a loving, compassionate father was. So I would be that father's barber.
00:48:23
>> And um was it wildly successful like straight away? So you start up this tin
00:48:26
shed. Um I believe before too long you're cutting here. You had a really good work ethic, right? Like cutting
00:48:30
hair from 6:00 a.m. to midnight often. Not doing it for money, doing it for like pies from the bakery.
00:48:36
>> No, honestly, it just it popped off. Like I I mean I started out with $5
00:48:40
haircuts, but you know when you're listening to the stories in your neighborhood like bro I can't take your
00:48:45
money you know and moms will come in with their kids you know sometimes five kids you know I'm not taking your money
00:48:51
like here's a free haircut you know >> you're too soft to be in business. I
00:48:54
know honestly and all my business mates say is like mate you're never going to
00:48:57
you're never going to make money and even now doing this work like traveling
00:49:00
the world like you know organizations pay for us to travel you know so I I feel like I'm this little boy who's you
00:49:05
know walking into a candy store like I could only dream of visiting these countries I only seen these countries on
00:49:10
movies you know but now I get to experience that so for me I am living my dream I'm not making you know bank but
00:49:16
I'm living my dream where I get to visit countries and and you know talk about
00:49:19
stories of healing and share my story my family story >> but um it popped off in a little garden
00:49:24
tin shed. And the reason why I was doing 6:00 a.m. to midnight because the more haircuts I could do, the more I could
00:49:29
give away free haircuts, you know, so these haircuts would cover other haircuts. Um, and some of the guys
00:49:33
genuinely knew that. I mean, in Adanoi on the east side of Christ Church, you know, we would call that the hood, you
00:49:39
know, that that's the hood in Christ Church, but there were so many beautiful
00:49:42
men who were coming into my little >> dark corner of the street. Um, we were
00:49:47
packed right at the um corner in this dead end street. you know, they're walking down this long driveway and the
00:49:52
first time that a lot of these men will come like, man, this is scary. Like, is it all right to keep our cars, you know,
00:49:56
on the side of the road? Of course it is. Like, you know, we're we're a good
00:49:59
we're a good neighborhood. It got a lot of slack, but we're a good neighborhood.
00:50:02
And I think, you know, kings and queens are born in that place in >> Yeah. Yeah. It does sound weird like you
00:50:09
don't have the um you the red, white, and blue barberh shop thing out the >> different red, white, and blue lights.
00:50:16
>> Um Yeah. And so so and you went viral for doing um some Tupac art in someone's
00:50:21
hair which is um that was like one of your specialties e like doing portraits in the back of
00:50:25
>> what's it called? Hair art. >> Art so yeah that was my specialty. So I
00:50:29
just used utilize hair art to really promote my barbering. And so when moms will come in and like you know my kid my
00:50:36
son wants his football team or his rugby team on the side of his head here can you do that? Or you know it's book club
00:50:40
week can you do his favorite blah blah blah. Um, yeah. And I'll straight away
00:50:45
use the power of social media, put up the photo, and it'll just get hundreds
00:50:48
and hundreds and hundreds of likes, and then moms will come in like, "Oh, do you
00:50:52
do like normal haircuts, too?" Of course I do. Like, you know, if I can do a
00:50:56
portrait, I'm pretty sure I can do a feed. Um, and so that's when really men
00:50:59
started coming. It just opened up. It was I use it as an advertising tool to to get men in the chair.
00:51:05
>> But that must have been I mean, this is this is trivial on the big part of, you
00:51:09
know, the Matt Brown story, but the um the Tupac thing. So, you know, Tupac Yeah. navigated through you through your
00:51:15
teenage years. You know, you're you know, you're a huge fan of his music and
00:51:19
then suddenly you get shared on the official >> Tupac Facebook page and it blows up
00:51:23
millions of views overnight. >> Yes. >> I thought I was the man. >> Yeah. And it went viral and I just
00:51:29
thought well and I mean I'll never forget um this barber obviously social media this barber commented I miss my
00:51:36
friend and I jumped on and I was like oh who's this guy saying he misses his
00:51:39
friend and it was Tupac's barber. the man who used to cut who was personal barber to Tupac and Biggie, you know.
00:51:44
And so I got ended up connecting to this man who goes by the name of Darren Lions
00:51:49
the master barber and I said, "Bro, would you ever come consider coming to New Zealand?" And he said, "Yeah, I'd
00:51:54
love to." And so he came here to Altered and we did a full-on tour around the
00:51:58
country, a soldout tour. And who in if you told me that one day I would travel the country touring with two parks
00:52:05
barber personal barber I would never believe you >> you know because I just dreams were a
00:52:11
distant you know thing >> in my mind you know and so to travel with parks barber was a massive honor
00:52:18
and I got to hear stories that I haven't yet seen on in any documentary any movie yet. You know he hasn't spoken
00:52:26
up about what he knows. Wow. You you made a comment before saying like you're
00:52:32
not making bank, but I I feel like that's that's never been your sort of
00:52:36
driving motivate. If you wanted to make bank, like you you could have turned my father's barber, you could have teamed
00:52:41
up with someone that knows a lot about business and turned it into like a civil or something, couldn't you?
00:52:44
>> Yeah. Been offered. I mean, look, my my father-in-law was the man of that, you
00:52:49
know, he created a massive chain of hair hair salons and hairmies and we were going down that path, but I just thought
00:52:54
to myself, >> this is not my passion. Like I love cutting hair and I love conversing with
00:52:59
the men who sit in my chair, but being this business guy who's always thinking
00:53:02
about money is just not me. Like why would I? >> I've got my my my hours are short in my
00:53:07
day to to really create impact. >> Um but yeah, I mean I'm happy in my
00:53:11
three-bedroom, you know, townhouse back in Christ Church with my faro. That's
00:53:16
all we need, you know, and I look at the state of the world currently. We don't
00:53:19
need anymore. >> I'm happy with what we have. >> I feel like you you'd only want money
00:53:23
for what you can do with it. >> Yeah. And that's the thing, we're making
00:53:27
>> Yeah, we're making money, but it just goes back into our work. You know, we're
00:53:30
buying more books to give away for free. And I often say to people, you know, if
00:53:33
trauma is free, why can't healing be free, you know, like we have to go through so many hoops, dodge so, you
00:53:38
know, jump over so many cliffs just to get the right help that we all need. And >> I mean, we're just doing our small part
00:53:44
around family violence prevention and suicide prevention. you know, men's mental health is is crucial to me,
00:53:49
important to me because I grew up in a household where men's mental health just
00:53:53
wasn't healthy, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like a I've got it
00:53:59
like a [ __ ] on you, but yeah, vulnerable conversations like weren't even a thing as well. Like I went to an
00:54:03
old boy school and if you showed any sort of vulnerability or weakness, it would just be weaponized against you
00:54:07
>> 100%. >> So you just wouldn't you just don't say a word. So for you, so for you in the um
00:54:12
in um the the barberh shop chair, how did the vulnerable conversation start? Was it like accidental or intentional?
00:54:19
>> Accidental. I think it just grew organically, you know, um when men would
00:54:23
just ask me questions, you know, what's your story, you know, how did you grow
00:54:25
up, you know, and I would just share. I mean, I've been talking about my story
00:54:29
since I was 15. So naturally, when if anyone wanted to listen, of course, I'm
00:54:33
going to share and be honest and open. Um, and I've always felt when I've been
00:54:38
courageous in sharing my story, I've always been met with the same energy. You know, men have often open up and
00:54:44
told me things that they've never even told their wives. Men who have been married for 20 years would often share
00:54:48
with me, I've never even told my wife this, you know, and so I think vulnerability
00:54:53
gives permission for other people to be vulnerable. Um, and I see it as a strength instead of a weakness, you
00:54:58
know. And I always tell guys, especially guys who are in gangs, like, you know, the most gangster thing you can do, bro,
00:55:04
is be vulnerable. The most gangster thing you can do is break cycles. Be there for your partners. Don't raise a
00:55:10
hand to your partners. Don't raise a voice to your children. You know, be there and be the dad that you never had
00:55:14
or witnessed. That's the most gangster thing you can do. And when you speak in
00:55:17
that language or or um put language to the feelings that a lot of our men carry, you see the light bulb turn on.
00:55:24
You know, ah, that's how that makes sense to me. you vulnerable conversations are [ __ ] difficult, but
00:55:31
to be to be the person that front foots it like you are in in this dynamic um that's that's another level of um
00:55:37
courage I think. >> Thank you, bro. >> You know what I mean? Cuz it sort of it
00:55:41
sort of create it lets the customer know that it's a safe space. >> Yep. Then you have but you have to model
00:55:46
it, you know. I'm not going to expect you to I mean again I'm not a counselor
00:55:50
and you're not paying me counselor money for me to, you know, navigate this thing
00:55:53
for you. You're paying me haircut money. Look, I'll I'll model it and and be
00:55:57
open, but never a judgmental. Like >> I always question when people say this
00:56:01
is a safe place. No judgment. It's like, well, actually, we're all judging, you
00:56:05
know, we're judging whether this is safe enough for me to open up, you know? So,
00:56:08
I always tell guys, look, this is I'm judgmental as, but just know that I'm
00:56:12
not going to condemn you for whatever you share with me. There's going to be
00:56:15
no condemnation. >> Was there a moment like an like an aha sort of moment when you realized you
00:56:20
were on to something significant? Um, not really, bro. It's just >> I think in our sector of violence, a lot
00:56:30
of people are angry. >> Um, but I've seen our work. It works. When you meet people who have perpetrated
00:56:39
violence and you meet and understand them and look at them with compassion and speak to their inner child, speak to
00:56:47
the sacredness that sits within them, >> you see a much better result. You see a
00:56:52
man who is willing to heal and change when you come to them with compassion. But when you come at them pointing the
00:56:57
finger blah blah blah here the consequences blah blah blah you know that's it for you. I thought well you
00:57:03
just validate everything that I've been told as a child. >> Yeah. >> That I'm going to be another statistic
00:57:08
that I'm going to be another data >> for the system. So I choose not to be
00:57:12
that. >> Yeah. What was some of the most powerful moments in the chair in terms of like
00:57:17
stories you heard? Man, I've seen boys cry, you know, telling me, disclosing to
00:57:23
me they because they didn't um make the first 15 or they didn't make the
00:57:28
basketball a team. Um they're too scared to tell their dad because their dad um
00:57:34
will just say to them that they're good for nothing. Why are you even my son?
00:57:37
You know, boys just full on cry in my chair. Um but these are moms bringing their boys in because they believe that
00:57:43
our shop were safe was safe enough for their boys to open up. Um, I've seen grown as men come into our barber shop
00:57:50
in tears. Um, my barbers gather around them and cry with them. You know, when you hear stories of men who have lost
00:57:56
their children to violence, um, not at their hands, but other people's hands.
00:58:01
We've seen some of the most horrific stories. You know, our barber shop is situated 2 minutes from the mosque
00:58:06
shooting that happened in Christ Church. We've had some of the Muslim Faro come
00:58:09
into our barber shop, men for haircuts, and just cry. I've lost my granddad.
00:58:13
I've lost my mom. I've lost my dad. You know, my daughter's in a wheelchair.
00:58:16
like >> there's nothing really that will shock me now. You know, I've heard some crazy,
00:58:23
heartbreaking, funny stories. >> Yeah. This the story, and I've heard you
00:58:29
tell this a couple of times before, but it'd be wonderful if you'd um tell it
00:58:33
again if you want to. Um just broke my heart. The story about Liam. >> Yeah. Liam, that was in my shed. And I
00:58:40
remember we just we got along and I think our stories of our fathers loving alcohol connected us. Um and then I
00:58:49
remember I showed every time after a barber shop, if you go to a barber and they show you, they should show you the
00:58:54
final product with a smaller mirror, right? Reflecting onto the bigger mirror. And I remember I was showing
00:58:58
Liam like, "What do you think of your haircut, bro?" And um you know he was
00:59:03
kind of not looking up but as as soon as his eyes engaged with his haircut he just started crying weeping and I said
00:59:11
oh awkward you know as a as a guy this is my early days of barbering and I thought oh what do I do? What I do? Um
00:59:18
and I asked him are you all right bro? And he said yeah I just I planned for this haircut to be my last haircut. And
00:59:25
I said what do you mean? He said oh this was the haircut for my funeral. So, what
00:59:30
do you mean for your funeral? Well, I wanted to look in my c I wanted to look good in my casket because I wanted to
00:59:37
take my own life. I want to take my own life. And I remember I just put my mirror down and just grabbed him, hugged
00:59:43
him, and just cried with him. And so we stood there crying for a couple of minutes and um you know after he wiped
00:59:50
his eyes, got himself together, he you know stood at my barber shed and he turned around and said
00:59:58
thank you so much for seeing me tonight. And I knew he wasn't talking about fitting fitting him in for a haircut,
01:00:05
you know, it was thank you for seeing me like really seeing him beyond the facade, beyond the mask and just
01:00:10
connecting with him. And so that was really my that was probably one of the first moments in my my career where I
01:00:17
thought man I am on to something here about just holding space for men to talk and whether that's sharing my story or
01:00:23
just listening. >> Um and often you know I'm not a talker big talker myself you know so often if a
01:00:29
guy comes and sits in my chair I'll try and navigate as gently as I can the conversation. If he doesn't want to talk
01:00:35
if he doesn't want you know if I can pick up that he just wants to rest then
01:00:38
I'll let him relax and we'll get to work. I'm good with that. I'm happy to
01:00:41
not talk, you know, but if you know, if I ask a question and he wants to talk and just disclose him, whatever, like
01:00:46
then I'll happily help him navigate. >> A as you expanded, um, did you find it
01:00:52
hard to like hire barbers? Cuz obviously you need someone that has the ability to
01:00:55
cut hair, but also the ability to, you know, hold space. >> 100%. And so I mean, I had a thing in my
01:01:01
barber shop every Wednesday in our barber shop. It was compulsory for you to come to our team meeting. Even if you
01:01:06
weren't scheduled to work that day, you had to come in 10:00 in the morning,
01:01:10
every Wednesday, we would have meet team meetings and we would talk about hard things. And it's not just, oh, how's
01:01:16
your week? How's your week been going, boys? The boys weren't allowed to say
01:01:18
good. Like, you had to elaborate and really dig deep in cuz I thought to myself, who are we doing this work with
01:01:24
the men in our chair, in our community, in our barber shop, if we can't do this
01:01:28
work with ourselves, with each other? And so it was crucial and important for me to really lead by example of what
01:01:34
having vulnerable having a vulnerable courageous workplace looks like. And it looked like us doing it ourselves.
01:01:40
>> Do you get lots of customers coming in, there's a massive line and they're like,
01:01:42
"Oh no, I want to see Matt. I want to see Matt." >> No, cuz we had a booking system. Okay.
01:01:46
>> So we didn't have the um just walk-ins anymore, you know, and so most of us
01:01:49
would be booked out months in advance, you know, and so we always felt bad if you were sick. He's like, "Oh man, this
01:01:54
guy's been waiting for a haircut and now I'm crook," you know. But it was cool
01:01:58
like you say it's funny you say that I'm no longer in the barbering game but just
01:02:02
like last week my wife attended a a hoie down in Deneden and she says she came across this young moldy man who came and
01:02:09
thanked my wife he goes I'm so gutted that your barber shop is closed down because it was such a special place you
01:02:14
know he comes from a faro he's the youngest but he comes from a a farmer's
01:02:18
faro a family of farmers and you see us boys are just like staunch we don't talk
01:02:23
about emotions or anything and I remember this is what he was saying to my wife and I remember my older brother
01:02:28
was going through something. So I thought, you know, I'm the baby brother. I don't know what to say or do to my
01:02:32
older brother to help him. So I just thought, I'll book him in for a haircut.
01:02:34
I'll get him a haircut and just spend some time with him. And he obviously had
01:02:37
heard of our work. And so he booked him into our barber shop. And this his brother got one of the um quietest
01:02:43
barbers, one of our barbers who doesn't talk at all. And he just said, "I was
01:02:46
just myself there, you know, talking, being loud in the barber shop." And they
01:02:49
were just so friendly and inviting. And then I looked over to my brother who was
01:02:52
getting a haircut. And all I could see was these tears coming down from his eyes. And I don't know what the barber
01:02:58
said to my brother. But after that um haircut, you know, I was like, man, now what do I do from this? Like this is
01:03:04
going to be awkward to talk to him. Uh should we just go get a feed? Um and anyway, they went for a feed and he said
01:03:09
that that was the first time in his life his brother had ever opened up to him was straight after a hiccup. Wow.
01:03:14
>> And I only just heard this last week. And so I just thought, man, that barber
01:03:18
shop was a a unique place. But that's because us boys, us barbers, we had fostered this environment where we had
01:03:24
to have these conversations within ourselves. >> Yeah. And that was that's your
01:03:28
leadership. Like that all came completely from you. >> Um Oh, yeah. I'm just giving you flowers
01:03:34
at every a possible opportunity because you deserve them. Was it was it a you shut the doors in 2023?
01:03:39
>> Yeah. >> Was that a like a difficult decision? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we decided the idea
01:03:45
came up about 2 years prior to that because I was getting pulled in so many directions after my TED talk. Um I was
01:03:52
getting invited from so many different communities, especially indigenous communities. We had received letters
01:03:57
from um communities in Canada, in the States, in the UK saying, "Matt, we've
01:04:03
never seen a brown man stand on stage and talk about domestic violence the way you have. Your story is our story. how
01:04:09
do we access your insights and your tools for our communities? And so being invited to different countries to talk
01:04:15
about family violence prevention and suicide prevention, I just thought, man, and then coming back to the barber shop
01:04:20
and the boys were all like, you know, off doing their own things and there was sick days here and clients were
01:04:24
disappointed. I was like, oh man, I can't do both, you know. Um, but I'm
01:04:28
passionate about this work. >> And so two years prior to that, the idea of closing shop um came in. And then I
01:04:37
think a year before closing I decided, yeah, I need to I can't do both of this.
01:04:40
I can't do both of these things. And I I gave the options to the boys. Anyone
01:04:44
want to take over? The boys like, no, we're not working here if you're not
01:04:47
here. >> So, >> yeah. So, um my father's barber that shuts. Um and she's not your rehab was
01:04:54
already a thing by this point. E there's an overlap. Yeah. That's a great name,
01:04:57
by the way. And a and a I mean, it's a real eye-catching logo. Like, I'm sure
01:05:01
everyone's seen a t-shirt with it on. Um where did the name come from? Again,
01:05:06
everything comes from our lounge on our leather couch where my wife and I just sit there and talk about ideas till the
01:05:11
sun comes down, till the sun comes up as well. Um, and she just I got invited to
01:05:16
do the tea talk and we were just playing around with a few title names um or what
01:05:21
to talk about and obviously just talking about my story of my wife and then my wife just belted out, you know, she is
01:05:26
not your rehab because my mom had been in rehab center for my father my entire childhood. So that really was the birth
01:05:32
of the name was my wife yelling out to me, okay, yeah, we we'll title, oh, you
01:05:37
know, the the foundation of my talk, my te talk will be about women not being rehabilitation centers and inviting men
01:05:44
to take responsibility for the healing because what we do not transform, >> we inevitably transmit onto those who we
01:05:50
love the most. >> Yeah, the the TED talk's amazing. So that was 5 years ago. It's a 25minute
01:05:55
talk. Um did did you like auto cue? There's no notes. No, no. I I've rehearsed that.
01:06:02
>> No, it's incredible. >> Thank you. Well, I grew up in church where we had to like rehearse like Bible
01:06:06
scriptures, you know, and so you'll stand up on stage and, you know, rehearse these recite these Bible
01:06:11
scriptures. >> Yeah. I feel feel that's a bit different though, like reading the passage from
01:06:13
the Bible to like like sharing some really like intensely personal and actually just bloody sad stuff about
01:06:20
your own life. >> Thank you. Yeah, it was it was about two months of me just I mean my quiet time's
01:06:26
in the toilet. So, it'll just be me talking in the toilet, me driving and just reciting my my speech and my kids
01:06:31
will often say, "Damn, why you keep talking to yourself? I'm trying to rehearse my speak my speech for for
01:06:36
Ted." >> So, >> yeah, for anyone that hasn't seen it, it's well worth looking up on on
01:06:40
YouTube. Um 25 minutes speech, no notes, first five minutes. Um just from the way
01:06:46
you're breathing, you can tell you're nervous. And why wouldn't you be? It's
01:06:49
like in a massive massive auditorium. And I was the last speaker of the day. >> So I'm like freaking closing the whole
01:06:55
bloody >> the event was Yeah. nerve-wracking. >> So first five minutes um lots of laughs.
01:07:02
It's very very funny. And then suddenly um it transitions and you can hear like
01:07:06
a pin drop in that auditorium. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah just stunned stunned silence.
01:07:13
>> Thank you. But yeah, I mean the name came about cuz my wife was like, "We
01:07:16
need to cuz we had our whole community come up on stage at my barbers and to talk with me with a haka at the end of
01:07:22
it." >> And so she was trying to figure out, oh, what do we, you know, dress everyone up?
01:07:25
And I was like, well, you do that. You this, you work on that. I'm working on
01:07:28
my speech. And so she decided to put she's not your rehab on a t-shirt. She got everyone to wear that. So that's
01:07:33
really where the name, the t-shirt, the title of the book came from was from those t-shirts cuz everyone started
01:07:39
messaging us, how do we access those t-shirts um so much that Amazon ended up ripping it off and selling it. Um so we
01:07:46
had to um copyright the the name and so HBO ended up sharing the whole TED talk.
01:07:52
Um it was crazy. It went off on Twitter. I mean for us it was really had a lot of stack slack on the name.
01:08:00
you know it is it's triggering for some especially for me it's like you know but
01:08:04
he is not your rehab too you know women are re um use men as rehabilitation centers so I was like okay cool if
01:08:10
that's your story I'll happily support you but this is my story this is me went
01:08:14
to see my mom be a rehab center you know for my father >> also yeah I don't know what I don't know
01:08:19
what the breakdown is but I'm sure like yeah most victims of domestic violence
01:08:23
by a long way are women rather than men >> yes oh 100% look and I know like I'm not
01:08:28
ignorant to the fact it does go both ways I've had many men who have sat in my chair in tears
01:08:33
>> um because they can't have access to their children. But unanimously, we're
01:08:37
losing more women and children at the hands of disregulated men. We're also losing men at the hands of disregulated
01:08:42
men. We're taking our own lives. So, if anything, I hope my brothers do know
01:08:47
that the movement is an invitation for us to do the work, be better. >> I can't believe some people would be so
01:08:53
brittle. Bro, I had a man who came in. I I was in Australia for work for Mahi for
01:08:58
about two weeks and I came back to the barber shop and I was fully booked out on a Friday and this old man walked in
01:09:04
um old man walked in and the boys go, "Oh, bro, he's that guy's been coming in
01:09:08
every day the last two weeks while you're gone um wanting to talk to you."
01:09:11
I said, "Do you guys not book him in?" I said, "Oh, we we tried to, but he just
01:09:14
said, "I'll just come in when Matt comes in." And I said, "Well, tell him to come
01:09:16
back on my lunch break. I'll I'll see him then." Um 3 hours later to my lunch
01:09:20
break, he just he decided to sit there for the whole 3 hours to my lunch break. And I went over and sat and I k um how
01:09:28
can I help you? And he goes into his bag, pulls out my book, which looks like it's been read. Pulls out my book and
01:09:34
then goes I hate the name of your book. I'm like, you couldn't just emailed me
01:09:38
this or I hate the name of your book. Oh, okay. M like why do you hate the name of the
01:09:45
book? He said because it should be he. I was like, "Okay." Um, yeah, I used to I
01:09:51
used to get abuse from my wife, my ex-wife. She used to abuse me. And I was, "Oh, M, I'm so sorry that that
01:09:56
happened to you. Um, but if you ever decide to write a book, I'll happily support you."
01:10:00
>> And then I said, "But you know, you have read the book." He goes, "Yeah." So, you
01:10:03
know, it's about my mom and my upbringing of witnessing mom. He goes, "Yeah, yeah." Okay.
01:10:07
>> But, you know, again, I just held space for him to listen to him, >> you know, but yeah, I've had push back
01:10:12
many, many times. You should have just got a Sharpie and crossed out the S on his
01:10:17
There you go. Happy now, mate. Um, yeah. And you got um Dwayne Johnson to wear the shirt in 2020 after your son wrote
01:10:26
him a note. Um, what sort of impact did that have on the movement? >> That took our movement to a global um
01:10:33
recognition. I think we had famous, you know, WWE stars re-sharing it. You know,
01:10:38
Rkkeshi, you know, the I don't know all their names. Um, we had hip-hop artists,
01:10:43
we had, you know, NFL stars resharing like obviously it hit the American Polynesian market. Um, and so when
01:10:50
Dwayne responded, it was massive. You know, my my mom is a typical basica sour woman, very private. She would always
01:10:58
say to me, "Son, why you always want to tell the sad stories of our family? Tell
01:11:02
the happy stories." And I remember this one time I said to my mom, "Which one's
01:11:07
mom?" And that was her response. Yeah, she sat there in silence. And so when we did the video, that campaign um
01:11:18
a letter to the rock and we used my son Angelo when Dwayne ended up responding. I showed my mom his response on um
01:11:26
Instagram and my mom sat there on her deathbed. You know, it was 2 weeks before she lost her battle to cancer and
01:11:32
she just weeped weep. She started wailing and she just said, "Son, tell our story well." you know, and so I
01:11:39
always get emotional talking about it because >> it just runs right in our culture.
01:11:44
>> You know, this [ __ ] happens in so many communities, not just Polynesian. It
01:11:47
happens in, you know, well educated communities, you know, it happens in um Parkia,
01:11:55
Asians, it happens in every community. My wife used to work on the family violence lines. She said often people
01:12:00
who were in privileged power positions would ring up asking for help, who were suffering from the domestic violence but
01:12:05
couldn't speak up because of their positions. too much taboo, too much stigma. If workplace ever found out, if
01:12:11
the doctors, if the lawyers in their firm found out, like, you know, they would probably lose their jobs.
01:12:16
>> You know, domestic violence happens everywhere. And so for the Wayne to
01:12:20
really um plug our movement was massive. It grew our movement. >> I mean, it just opened us up
01:12:27
internationally. >> Yeah, it was um genuine and authentic as well. wasn't just him like re-sharing
01:12:34
something or, you know, posing thumbs up with a t-shirt on. Um, like he put a lot
01:12:38
of thought into his response. >> Well, I got a screenshot from a famous Hawaiian singer who's friends with the
01:12:44
family and he had messaged, you know, them saying, "Has Dwayne seen the video?
01:12:48
Has Dwayne seen the video?" And his wife responded saying, "My husband has been
01:12:52
on his knees all morning in tears." Because he too resonated with the story
01:12:57
>> of witnessing his mom be subjected to similar violence. Um, you mentioned your your mom just a
01:13:03
second ago. Do um can you remember your last conversation with her? >> Um, yes. Yep. It was all around healing.
01:13:12
>> Um, I I haven't shared this much, but before my mom passed away, I invited my
01:13:19
brothers. Um, cuz I'm known as the cheesy one in the family. So, all this vulnerability, you know, talk, which I
01:13:25
call courageous and hard, my brothers call it cheesy. It's like you and your
01:13:28
cheesy [ __ ] I own it. >> Um, and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, sweet."
01:13:31
Um, but I said, "Look, I want to have these hard cord Tylenol with mom before
01:13:36
mom passes away. Um, I'm going to invite mom and dad, you know, and just have
01:13:40
this conversation." My brother's like, "Bro, we ain't doing none of that shit."
01:13:42
I said, "Well, I'm having it whether you guys want to come or not." Anyways, my
01:13:45
older brothers end up coming. Um, cuz me and the younger brothers like they listen to me. The younger brothers like,
01:13:50
"Yeah, we're with you." >> Um, but my older brothers are more
01:13:52
harder, you know, to get on get on board with. And anyways, they came and I remember sitting there while mom was
01:13:59
lying on her bed and I said I looked at my dad and I said, "Dad, do you know why you were so violent to
01:14:05
us? Why you were so chaotic? Why you were so abusive?" You know what my old
01:14:10
man's response was? What do you mean, son? I put food on the table. I feed you guys. What more did
01:14:16
you want? When he said that, I looked at my older brothers and they looked at me
01:14:21
like, "You [ __ ] we told you that this was a waste of time. But that response from my old man really
01:14:28
gave me insight. Man, dad, he's really um disassociated with, you know, our past, our childhood.
01:14:35
Like he's really either his mental health is not all there or he just has shut that completely out of his mind. Um
01:14:43
and that was really it was the after talk after chat with my siblings and mom, you know, mom just saying, "Son,
01:14:49
that's your dad." you know, forgive him not for his sake, but forgive him for
01:14:53
you so you can be the dad for, you know, my my moles. You can be the dad for my grandchildren. Um, and that's all I
01:15:00
needed to hear from my mom, you know. >> How do you reflect on her life? Say it.
01:15:34
I don't think there were I don't think there were many many happy days in my mom's life. And I think sad
01:15:43
because I wish she was here to see what her pain how transforming what we've done to
01:15:51
transform our pain which was her pain and the movement that's created you know
01:15:57
like I've received thousands of letters from from women from men from children
01:16:03
who finally understand the correlation of their trauma to their behavior you know and why they've perpetrated this
01:16:10
violence. And I think I think of my mom. I think sad that you don't get to see you don't
01:16:17
get to see and experience and listen to the stories of us of what happens when you own your story, the entirety of your
01:16:25
story, the good, the bad, and the ugly >> and transform it and and see what the
01:16:29
healing can bring. Like I never thought that this would spark this global movement where you I mean I've received
01:16:34
letters from people all around the world. >> You know people who I thought would
01:16:38
never ever resonate with a brown boy story down in little old tahi and Christ Church from the UK from Wales from
01:16:46
Scotland you know men incarcerated all around the world in Hawaii um in the islands who just connect to mom's story.
01:16:53
And so I think um I'm very very sad when I think of mom. I'm very sad. Yeah, it's bloody crazy.
01:17:00
>> Sorry, bro. >> No, absolutely not. >> [ __ ] She must have been proud.
01:17:06
>> I hope so. >> What do you mean? >> She was She was proud, but I hope she's
01:17:10
proud now like even more that Oh, Sonia, keep speaking up. >> You know, um, she was proud. Like, no,
01:17:16
she would always say she was proud of us. Like anyone who was friends, my mom, even some of her friends now message me
01:17:20
like, "Man, your mom would always gloat about you guys when she'll come and play
01:17:24
with us on a Friday." She would always, she couldn't stop talking about her
01:17:27
sons. Um, so I know she was proud, but I hope wherever she's she is today, um, in
01:17:33
the sky or wherever with my children. Um, she's super proud. >> Thanks for sharing that.
01:17:41
>> Yeah. >> Thanks for making me cry. Your first freaking podcast has made me cry.
01:17:47
>> Um, yeah. Well, one thing I've learned about you is, um, yeah, you've got a lot
01:17:52
of people crying. you've normally and and I reckon um yeah like you know talking about when I was
01:17:58
growing up like yeah you just didn't want to be like crying was was a weak a
01:18:02
weak sort of trait and it's something you didn't want to do and I don't know I
01:18:05
often find as I get older I'm sort of leaning into it a bit more. >> Yeah.
01:18:08
>> It's funny like when you see always I always hear this echo when you start to
01:18:12
cry and you hear it's like stop crying or I'll give you something to cry. I was
01:18:15
like I'm already crying you know. >> Yeah we had that one too. >> Yeah. Stop crying or I'll give you
01:18:20
something to cry about. I was like um so the the book she is not your rehab did did did that come about as a result
01:18:31
of the TED talk was that the order of things or was >> it came after the TED talk but we were
01:18:36
already writing this so this came out um we were approached by Penguin um when the mosque shooting happened in Christ
01:18:42
Church where we lost a lot of our Muslim Faro um our our barber shop became one of the hubs so we had a lot of friends
01:18:50
clients who were social workers and they were just messaging us like, "Bro, we
01:18:53
can't access any help for our Muslim Faro. Can you do put something up on your socials?" And so I reached out to
01:18:58
our community and then all of a sudden all these influencers around the country were like, "If you guys, you know, want
01:19:03
to, you know, skip the red tape, just donate whatever you can to the barber shop. They've got social workers who
01:19:07
will just go and dividend this, give this out to the um Muslim community." And so yeah, Penguin approached us. They
01:19:13
came and donated thousands of dollars of books to our Muslim Faro. And then they
01:19:17
approached, hey, we send your TED talk like we are you guys doing anything? are you writing anything? Like, well, we
01:19:22
are. We're writing this book. And so, we signed off Penguin. >> Yeah. And it's not just not just a book.
01:19:28
It's like a it's a a very helpful resource. Um, what was the hardest chapter to write?
01:19:35
>> She is not your shame. >> Um, I think cuz when I wrote this book,
01:19:41
I didn't want to I didn't want it to be another trauma dump story where I just,
01:19:45
you know, vomited everything that I've gone up for, grew up in. I wanted to have proper tools, proper insights that
01:19:50
would actually help people. Um, and so I said to my wife when we were writing this, I said, I don't want to paint my
01:19:56
parents um into this image that they're just perpetrators and monsters, you know, why didn't she leave him? Why
01:20:02
didn't he stop, you know, abusing her? I wanted to wrap it around with compassion
01:20:06
and empathy because my siblings will be reading this. My faro will be reading this and we are the ones that have to
01:20:10
live with this, not, you know, the the comment section, the cheap seats, people who are sitting in cheap seats. We have
01:20:15
to live with the aftermath for this. Um and so the hardest chapter when it came to it my wife said to me rang me up
01:20:22
actually she was up here in Oakuckland writing the book I was back home with the kids and she said would you ever
01:20:28
share about blah blah blah blah blah I said how to know we are putting that in the book I am never ever sharing that
01:20:34
and she said okay well I just thought I'll ask but my wife knows me well all
01:20:37
she has to do is plant the seed and then she knows it will just grow into something else anyways a year later I
01:20:44
had been sitting on that question and I came to I was you know what I think we should talk about that you know and so
01:20:50
chapter three where she is not ashamed where I talk about being um humiliated one of my and it's affected my adult
01:20:57
life um one of my experiences of childhood trauma was being stripped naked as a kid and laughed at and mocked
01:21:04
at because of how my body looked you know I wasn't the same physical athlete
01:21:09
as my my siblings um I've always been the chubbier one and so yeah whenever cousins and family members came around,
01:21:18
if they wanted a good laugh, my mom would just yell out to my siblings, "Go
01:21:21
get Matt, come in, strip him naked, and just laugh laugh at me and my genitals."
01:21:25
And so that really, to put it friendly, [ __ ] me up, you know? >> How can it not?
01:21:32
>> Yeah. How can it not? I just it just people say, "Oh, you know, I I didn't
01:21:37
sleep with people physically because I was so traumatized from that, you know, the
01:21:43
feeling that I could give someone myself physically intimately. I just thought, nah, I'll just get laughed and mocked
01:21:49
at, you know, and that happened not just once, not just two, three, four, five times, like constantly right throughout
01:21:54
my childhood." Um but funny in sharing that that chapter has become the most
01:22:00
powerful chapter, the most that I've ever received um responses and letters from men everywhere. Um a lot of men
01:22:07
struggle with body shame, you know, but we don't talk about it >> and so yeah, it's been probably the most
01:22:13
powerful chapter and so I'm glad I've I've put it in the book. >> [ __ ] How do you get over something like
01:22:18
that? >> Long long time. I mean, I've been married to my wife for coming up 10
01:22:24
years, and that's been a journey in itself. You know, I remember when I first made love to my wife. It was just
01:22:30
in tears, you know. I just I was in the toilet crying. She sh like, "Are you all
01:22:35
right?" I was like, "Yeah, well, I just >> I've just haven't been physically
01:22:38
intimate with anyone because of my childhood trauma, you know. I just didn't trust people. I didn't I hate
01:22:43
being touched. I hate anything like that. You know, you're the first person I've given this to. And so, let me
01:22:49
gather myself, you know. Did did anyone not that not that it can take away what happened but did anyone
01:22:54
apologize for that like did your mom apologize or any of you know your brothers or cousins that were laughing
01:23:00
at you? >> Not not so much my cousins. I don't hold them responsible for that. Um but my mom
01:23:05
apologized cuz I had the hard out conversation with her. Do you remember when you used to do this to me? So you
01:23:09
know how much it's [ __ ] me up. And my mom I'm so sorry son. So why did you
01:23:14
find that was funny? That's not funny. Like that scarred me for life. It's
01:23:17
affected you know my relationships. And yeah, my mom just owned it. She' I'm
01:23:22
so sorry. >> I'm so sorry. So yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I suppose that's all you
01:23:29
like compare that response to your dad's response. Like what are you talking
01:23:33
about? At least there's um I don't know. I suppose a sense of like ownership or
01:23:37
acknowledgement. >> Yeah, 100%. Now, >> how did how did you get how did you get
01:23:41
the book into into um corrections? Like every jail cell in New Zealand got got a
01:23:46
copy of this book. Every person incarcerated in 2021 ended up receiving a book for Christmas.
01:23:50
>> Yeah. Which is like what, 10,000 people? >> Yeah. 9,350 people. >> Shocking number. By the way, I think
01:23:55
most people have probably been to Spark Arena. This is like an arena full of uh people.
01:24:01
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. We um while we asked Penguin, our publishing um publishers, that this was
01:24:07
the dream. My and the reason why my dream was to get it into every person incarcerated was because I was a boy at
01:24:12
home waiting patiently every time my dad did a long leg in prison for domestic violence or something stupid. We were
01:24:18
hoping and praying that someone would say something to him while he was sober. This was the opportunity to speak to
01:24:23
him, speak some sense to him while he was sober. Unfortunately, that day never came. You know, 39 years on this earth
01:24:29
and my dad still drinks alcohol. You know, was still abusive to my mom right up until she died. And so, um, yeah, we
01:24:37
ended up raising the funds. We knocked on different organizations, the police, uh, a moldy organization back in Christ
01:24:43
Church. People gifted us money and we ended up buying the book. So, we bought it at wholesale. We didn't make any
01:24:48
money from it. Um, it didn't go on the best sellers list like, and we just donated it. So, by Christmas 2021, every
01:24:55
person incarcerated ended up receiving a book. >> [ __ ] you've got a big heart, don't you?
01:24:59
You and Sarah. >> Thank you, bro. >> Um, you you must get a lot of jail mail.
01:25:04
A lot, bro. A lot. And then one time the postman was like, "What are you guys
01:25:08
running in prison?" Cuz all the leaders that will come to the barber show a
01:25:10
letter from a prison envelope. >> I was like, "No, bro. We're just running
01:25:14
a a healing trade." So, >> what's the um Yeah. What's the general
01:25:19
theme of the messages? People sharing their own stories. >> Sharing their own stories. Horrific
01:25:23
stories, bro. Like, I think my story was bad. There's some guys in there who are
01:25:28
just like you. I have not seen a movie or documentary of this [ __ ] that a lot of our tan here in this country have
01:25:34
experienced. >> Prison is the biggest collection of traumatized people in society. So if you
01:25:40
think of aces, adverse childhood experiences, people in prison probably have six or more. Out of the top 10
01:25:46
aces, people in prison have six or more. >> Yeah. That's the curious thing about you
01:25:53
because you you you treat someone like an animal and chances are they're going
01:25:57
to end up being like an animal, but you it seems like you've never you you never had to break the cycle.
01:26:04
It's like you've just you were just always destined to be on this good path,
01:26:07
right? As a as a good man. >> I hope so. And it's funny. I mean, I grew up in a Catholic church, too. And
01:26:12
um my wife asked me this question the other day. She said, "You know what? What did you used to pray for when you
01:26:16
were a kid? You know what I used to pray to Satan?" And when I say that to some
01:26:19
of you, I used to pray to Satan, the devil. I I used to as a kid I used to pray to the devil and ask him to change
01:26:25
like please stop being mean you know you be better stop hurting people you but that's just who I was as a kid I used to
01:26:31
always Yeah. >> Oh that's so sweet. >> I know bro I look back like man I am a
01:26:36
weer who asked the devil to change >> me. I think it's like there's a quote that
01:26:42
you really um that you use saying um you know we're more alike than what we are
01:26:47
different. I think that's the quote. Yeah. It's like you just want to see the
01:26:50
good in everybody, even Satan. >> Yeah. Well, that's I mean, how can you
01:26:54
not when you're listening to men? I've sat with lawyers, judges, men in suits
01:26:58
whom I thought, man, I've never sit on the same table as you, you know, but when I actually hear their stories, too.
01:27:04
>> Shame doesn't discriminate. >> Pain doesn't discriminate. Mental health
01:27:07
doesn't discriminate. Like, we're all more alike than we are different. And if
01:27:10
people just actually took the time to sit and listen to each other, we wouldn't be living in the [ __ ] up
01:27:15
world that we're living in right now currently. >> Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I found from
01:27:19
doing this podcast is like most people are hard to dislike up close. >> Yeah.
01:27:24
>> You know, >> hard. >> Um Yeah. In your story, there's a lot of
01:27:28
um intergenerational trauma. What advice would you give to someone who doesn't
01:27:31
know where to start in breaking the cycle? >> The most courageous thing you can do is
01:27:40
own your story. And when you're ready to do that, find someone who's safe enough for you to do
01:27:46
that with. find the right person because not every person's safe. Um, not every counselor
01:27:52
is for everyone, but there is someone out there. Doesn't have to be a counselor. Could be a teacher, could be
01:27:56
a friend. Um, find someone who's safe enough for you to open up to. That's I believe is the
01:28:03
first step. >> I love how much of a pause you gave there and how much thought you put into
01:28:08
that answer. >> Thank you. >> Your words Your words carry a lot of weight and a lot of power. What's a
01:28:14
truth about masculinity that more men need to hear? But most probably aren't
01:28:18
ready for when you suppress what's the word. We're human beings, not human doings.
01:28:33
We're human beings. >> So we're all born with emotional and you know emotional feelings, etc. When you
01:28:41
suppress or deny yourself any of those things, whether it's grief, anger, hurt,
01:28:46
pain, you're also denying your humanity. And so, I think being masculine is embracing all of that.
01:28:55
>> Embracing all of that and owning it and carrying yourself well so you don't
01:28:59
transmit that pain onto those who you claim to love the most, our children, our partners. And I so I think masculine
01:29:06
to me is someone who just owns owns their entire story. >> I love that. In your experience, what's
01:29:18
the biggest thing men get wrong about healing? >> That it's cheese. Um
01:29:24
that it's butterflies and rainbows. It's not. It's freaking hard. >> Healing is one of the most hardest
01:29:29
things you will ever do. Um, I've seen grown as men whom society think are gangsters are the toughest crumble
01:29:37
on their knees and tears when they start healing. Healing is as masculine as it gets. You
01:29:44
know, I think doing the work, whatever that whatever that work looks like, whether it's opening up, whether it's
01:29:49
being better, whether it's opening the door for your partner, whether it's
01:29:52
getting up and thinking about your partner before she even thinks of what she needs next. You know, to me, that's
01:29:57
what being masculine is. My wife is currently sick with stage 4 endometriosis. I grew up not even being educated on
01:30:05
what endometriosis is, let alone what women go through. So I think to myself, man, my mom must have went through so
01:30:10
many things, you know, of her cycle, she never ever disclosed to us boys, you know, what she would have had to go
01:30:15
through by herself. And I just think being masculine is knowing what my best friend, what my children need before
01:30:23
they even before it even comes to them, before they even ask me. And so >> yeah, I'm always learning. You know,
01:30:31
>> you've said that healing is a daily practice and not just a one-time event.
01:30:34
What does what does that look like for you today? >> Sorry, can you say that again, bro?
01:30:39
>> Um, yeah, healing is a you've said healing is a daily practice and not just
01:30:42
a one-time event. So, like for you like here and now today, what does healing look like?
01:30:48
>> Um, I think it's just a constant opportunity to keep yourself regulated.
01:30:54
um a con constant opportunity um to evolve and do better. Um not overreact but respond.
01:31:03
>> Um but always searching for the truth. What is the truth here in this moment?
01:31:08
You know, if people are triggered or if I'm triggered, what's the truth here?
01:31:11
Did this person really mean harm to me? Or did this keyboard warrior, you know, really want to stomp on my mana online
01:31:18
or are they just going through their own thing, you know? So what's the truth
01:31:22
here? And >> so I think for me that question when you're always asking yourself what is
01:31:26
the truth here in every situation there is always room for growth and healing. >> Yeah. And I think like a living example
01:31:33
of what you just said was the guy that came into the shop and said it should be he is not your rehab. Um and how you
01:31:38
reacted to that. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah. What sort of legacy do you hope
01:31:43
this book and this movement will leave behind in you know 10 20 30 40 50 years? The legacy I hope is we create a
01:31:52
generation of cycle breakers. We have more men who are emotionally um literate um more emotional intelligence cuz I
01:32:00
think if we have children who are growing up with emotional literacy we wouldn't have the violence that we have
01:32:05
today. We wouldn't have the statistics that we have today. Why is it that New
01:32:08
Zealand altered has the highest statistics in the OECD world of family violence? Why do we have the highest
01:32:16
rates of suicide for adolesccents aged 15 to n 19 years old in this country in the world?
01:32:22
>> Emotional literacy is lacking. But I get it, you know, like teachers are signing
01:32:26
up to be history teachers and coaches and PE teachers. They didn't sign up to
01:32:30
be emotional, you know, regulators for our kids. But somehow the school system has become this place where you babysit
01:32:36
our kids while we go off to work and pay our bills. Like it's hard to be the
01:32:40
teacher solely in charge of 20, you know, hearts and minds in one hour and yours now your sole job is to teach them
01:32:48
emotional literacy. Like >> we need a village. We we need to stop overp profofessionalizing everything. We
01:32:55
need teachers, coaches, choir directors, all trauma informed and emotionally aware to help our people. That's the
01:33:02
legacy I hope um our books, our copa leaves. That's such a good answer, man. I'm just
01:33:11
hanging off every word you say. You're so wise, eh? What's your What's your inner critic
01:33:18
like? >> Um, it's gotten better. >> It's gotten better. I think um
01:33:26
I've been the hardest on myself. I'm I'm a creative, so you know, perfection I've
01:33:31
had a strange relationship with perfectionism. Um but I you know I think the art the artist in me believes well
01:33:38
it is what it is you know um but my inner critic >> he pops up here and there um Matt you
01:33:44
could do better or you know Matt you could have done that better for your wife and for me the person who I live to
01:33:52
try and um to serve is my dear wife >> and and I say that because when I say I
01:34:00
wouldn't be who I am today if not for her like I want to give her all the flowers and give her the time that I
01:34:06
have because the the moment I met Sarah and and chose to do this life and be in this partnership marriage, it's been the
01:34:14
happiest years of my life, you know, more happier than any of my childhood memories. So, I thought, why wouldn't I
01:34:19
want to see the store flourish and grow into something that it um it could be? And it is, you know, my children will
01:34:26
never ever know of, you know, raised voices, you know, tears and broken plates, bruised faces. They will never
01:34:34
ever know that >> because I constantly want to be this man for my wife. >> Yeah.
01:34:39
>> Well, you're a powerful dude. Um, she's a powerful woman. And together, I don't
01:34:44
know. It's just it's just this dynamic almost like the Avengers or something. I
01:34:49
don't know. Um, yeah. When when you when you brush your teeth in the evening and
01:34:54
you look in the mirror, you you know, you like the man looking back at you. >> 100%.
01:34:58
>> Yeah. Very happy with the man I am today. >> Yeah. >> What do you mean?
01:35:02
>> I feel like I'm in my peace um season. Like even my wife was saying like you
01:35:07
seem real peaceful, >> you know, this this year. I like Yeah. I think after closing the barber shop in
01:35:13
2023 um doing this mahi doing this work and just watching my children grow up you
01:35:19
know with joy and happy and the privilege that they have you know >> like don't get me wrong I educate them
01:35:23
on what's happening around the world in different countries where children are
01:35:26
getting bombed and I say you know we have to be we have to use our privilege to be voices for those who are voiceless
01:35:36
you know and so I don't take it lightly that I was that we won the lottery being
01:35:40
born here in Alteor. Um but yeah, >> you what's what's your personal
01:35:48
definition of success? >> Well, you just said being at peace with myself. >> Um what I just shared with you before my
01:35:56
personal definition of success is knowing that my children want to hang around me. I mean, our daughter's 22 and
01:36:03
she still wants to hang around us, you know, >> and it's not a given. and her boyfriend
01:36:06
wants to hang around us, you know, who's in whose son-in-law wants to hang around
01:36:09
with his, you know, in-laws. Um, to me, that's success. I'm at peace with
01:36:13
myself. Um, >> and if if someone's not at peace with me, look, come court, I'll happily talk
01:36:19
to anyone who wants to have a a corridor with me about anything. But >> yeah, I'm 100% happy with myself. I'm
01:36:26
happy with the man I am. I love my marriage. I adore my children. I love my friends. And Faro, um, to me, that's
01:36:33
success. You couldn't give me a billion dollars. I mean, you could and I'll do
01:36:37
more and help people. >> Why would you give you a billion? You just give it straight away. Give it
01:36:41
away. Yeah. No, we love that about you. If this was the last podcast you ever did, um, is there anything you'd want to
01:36:47
say that you that you haven't said? >> Far, great question. Um, I would say to everyone if whoever is
01:37:25
listening, if you are privileged in whatever form that looks like, Please use it for those who are not.
01:37:35
Please use your power, your platform, your privilege for those who are not because there are
01:37:41
many people who are not in the same position. And I think we as a race, we as a society, we as a culture are only
01:37:48
as good as our neighbor. And if our neighbors are in desperate need of our help, our
01:37:55
voices, whatever it is, whatever our privilege is, I think use it. or else to me you just sound like you're full of
01:38:01
[ __ ] Anything you do, any good that you do and you're, you know, claiming I
01:38:07
don't know whatever it is, but you're not thinking about our most disadvantaged and underprivileged in our
01:38:11
society. To me, you're full of [ __ ] >> And so I just strongly encourage those
01:38:16
who are in privileged positions and in power position positions, please think of our our least our most vulnerable.
01:38:25
Um, and for those who have been on my journey, like, thank you so much. I love you. And
01:38:34
those who I have the honor and privilege to meet in person. I'm sorry if I look
01:38:38
like a snob. I'm not a snob. I guarantee you that. I'm just an introvert. I'm a
01:38:42
very quiet person. Um, but anyone who's doing this, Mahi, for our most vulnerable, I love you and I thank you
01:38:49
because those children who were vulnerable are me and my siblings. and how I wish someone stood beside me and
01:38:56
said, "Matt, this was never yours to carry. >> I wouldn't, you know, because even
01:39:00
though I'm lucky enough to turn out this way, >> some of my faro and my extended faro
01:39:05
haven't been so lucky. Some of my faro are incarcerated, >> you know, and so we may have grown up
01:39:11
with the same parents, >> but we all experienced different parents, you know.
01:39:16
Well, I I I've loved the time that we've spent together, not just in the podcast
01:39:20
today, but um other times you've been here at Pod Lab to do a podcast, and you're you're someone that I don't know,
01:39:26
I just feel comfortable sitting in silence with, >> you know, not having to not having to
01:39:30
necessarily speak or say anything. You just have that sort of like presence. Um [ __ ] Yeah. 5 years, sevenyear-old,
01:39:37
10year-old Matt. Yeah. What would he think of this dude? >> Man, I thought he made me want to cry
01:39:44
even asking that question. Man, if I if five 17y old me seen who I am today, I would just cry.
01:39:54
>> I would it would give me so much hope >> that this is the man I am. That I would
01:40:00
have this family. I would have children who run to me, fight over a hug when I get through the door.
01:40:05
>> I would just cry like, man, is that going to be the life that I live? Okay,
01:40:08
I'll hold on. >> Yeah, there's hope, eh? >> Yep. 100%. Matt Brown, hell of a podcast. Love you,
01:40:17
my bro. >> Love you, too, brother. Thank you for your mahi, bro, and for your courageous
01:40:21
conversations and the guests that you've had over the years that I've been an
01:40:24
honor to listen to. Thank you for having me >> being such an honor and I love every
01:40:28
time I get to hug you, bro. You're you're a great hugger. You're a good
01:40:31
man. >> You You too. And you and your wife, Sarah, love what you're doing. And um
01:40:35
yeah, just can't wait to see where this movement that you guys have created goes.
01:40:39
>> Thank you all. Appreciate it.