00:00:00
What the hell is a peptide? >> They're actually just uh little signaling molecules. What they do is
00:00:04
they very precisely give an instruction to the cell. >> What does the evidence say? Does it
00:00:08
match the hype? >> Yes or no? >> What about um downside or side effect for these things?
00:00:12
>> Well, there's plenty of side effects. So, up to 50% of people will experience
00:00:15
side effects. >> Is it against the law to buy these things online and import them to New
00:00:19
Zealand? >> We've got this gray market now which actually makes it widely accessible.
00:00:23
>> You really think with that gray market stuff that you're talking about, it's a
00:00:26
case of Russian roulette. It's just a minefield. And then you're injecting that into your body. It's kind of scary
00:00:32
to me. And the thing that saddens me is I see these 17 year olds injecting themselves with peptide stacks like the
00:00:38
Wolverine stack and you know the Trinity stack and it's just talking about how incredible they are. And I'm like, you
00:00:44
don't need this. You're 17. >> If a listener or viewer to this podcast is peptide curious, what's the safe
00:00:49
first step? >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:57
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:02
for days. That's the boys who got the Holland one in To. He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:10
performance going? >> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:14
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:21
>> Putting performance first. >> Dr. Ula Haywood, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you for having me.
00:01:26
>> It's great to have you here. This is something very different for the Domy podcast. Usually I um speak to people uh
00:01:32
in long form conversations about their life and their journey. Um but this is um subject specific. We're talking about
00:01:38
peptides. Today >> we are. >> By the way, um you've got a hell of a backstory as well. We might have to get
00:01:42
you back another time to cover that. Emergency dog rescue helicopter for many years. Yep.
00:01:49
>> And then um a a a a terrible terrible car accident like 10 years ago that meant you stopped doing um the rescue
00:01:56
helicopter stuff which you loved. >> I did love it. Yeah. It was an interesting kind of sledgehammer hit
00:02:01
from the universe of this is not your career and you will not do this anymore. I I thought I was in it until I was you
00:02:06
know at least 50 or 60. Um but yeah that was an abrupt end to a very uh long career that I trained very hard for. So
00:02:13
that was quite an interesting pivot in my career. Why did you love the rescue helicopter stuff so much?
00:02:18
>> Um, I think I've always loved high drama in medicine and knowing what to do and
00:02:22
and kind of um being the person in a situation where everyone else flaps and panics but feeling very calm and and
00:02:29
having all the tools. So quite early on I decided that I wanted to do emergency medicine. I used to see resuscitations
00:02:35
on the ward and I always thought, "Oh yeah, that's that's exactly what I want to be in charge of." Um, and you meet
00:02:42
some incredible people in some very uh dodgy situations. You know, their life-threatening illness or injury and
00:02:47
you meet all their family members, >> and it really is the um a very acute end of life where you see people at their
00:02:53
absolute best and also their absolute worst. Um, and it's exciting. Um, I have sort of ADHD type tendencies and a lot
00:03:04
of my colleagues do. So, weird things happen to an ADHD brain in a in a hairy situation. and you become very very calm
00:03:11
and everything slows down and you find it very easy to be almost robotic >> um which is the opposite response to
00:03:18
what most people have. So you will find that in anesthesia uh and in emergency medicine a high degree of people are
00:03:25
slightly neurodeivergent shall we say >> when you're doing that emergency stuff and the rescue stuff how many how many
00:03:31
how many nights or how many shifts were there where you go home and just cry in the shower?
00:03:35
>> That's a really good question. Um there was definitely one time I remember crying all the way home. Um there was a
00:03:41
little I think 18-month old child who'd been run over in a driveway >> um by the auntie um and she came in uh
00:03:49
you know an extremist so almost almost um gone and we managed to resuscitate her and then she died anyway and it
00:03:57
really affected the whole team. Uh you know that kind of um brutal end to life of a perfect little human. It's
00:04:04
obviously absolutely devastating for the family, but it's actually really devastating for the medical
00:04:08
professionals and I think all of us had to have some counseling after that. So I
00:04:12
do remember being really traumatized by that for quite some time and dreaming about it and you know that's one of many
00:04:18
things because you end up seeing thousands and thousands of people um who are very ill in very traumatic
00:04:26
situations but some of them really stay with you and it's often the ones where the family are so distraught uh and
00:04:33
they're the impact it has on them really affects you and also children. a case like that, you obviously uh do
00:04:40
everything you can, but like does it play on your mind? Do you wonder if you could have done more or
00:04:43
>> I think every professional goes home and dissects within a knife edge every action, every word and thinks, could I
00:04:50
have done more? And I think in that situation, honestly, we couldn't. It the destiny was on the wall.
00:04:55
>> But um it's human nature to go back and analyze and make sure that you did everything right. And we have these
00:05:00
things on the helicopter called hot debriefs. So a lot of the medicine calls out uh call outs that we went to would
00:05:07
be pretty high octane if you like. So you know bleeding to death um crushed limbs or someone in a cardiac arrest.
00:05:15
Sometimes you know they're 21. Um and you always as a team debrief afterwards, dissect what was done and emotionally
00:05:23
kind of put everything uh back in place because I don't think there's many humans that could be unaffected by that.
00:05:30
>> Yeah. So, it's definitely quite intense medicine, but very, very rewarding. There's nothing quite like having
00:05:35
someone in agony come in with a fractured dislocation of their ankle, for example, and putting them out of
00:05:41
their misery and pulling the joint into place and putting a plaster on and they wake up and they're comfortable and it's
00:05:47
very, very satisfying. >> What don't you miss about that? >> Being screamed at by drunk people.
00:05:53
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we used to joke that um Ed on a Saturday night was a bit like a human zoo.
00:06:00
Um, you'd get a lot of people who are intoxicated with drugs and alcohol and they I can't say they were on their best
00:06:05
behavior, let's put it that way. Um, sometimes you get a lot of people with borderline personality disorders or
00:06:11
mental health disorders that um mean that the interactions with staff can be very challenging.
00:06:16
>> Uh, but you know, it's all part of learning and one of the best things you can do is to learn how to emotionally
00:06:21
self-regulate and work on your own inner calm and and um not react respond. So mindfulness training I think should be
00:06:28
an essential part of any kind of doctor's uh upbringing >> so that you can um bring your best
00:06:34
version of yourself to situations that are quite triggering. >> I've had another emergency doctor on the
00:06:39
podcast, Dr. Inia Ralphi. I don't know if you know him, he's a like a longdistance runner and he said since
00:06:44
he's been in that role at um Oakland Central, he like he just never go into town anymore. Like the amount of um
00:06:49
admissions he sees over the weekend from drunk people or from you random attacks
00:06:54
of violence and stuff, >> it does put you off drinking. it becomes really unattractive. Um, and I do
00:06:58
remember after doing a shift in ED, the smell, um, the sort of stale distillery booze smell of of the ward um, in the
00:07:06
mornings. If anyone of my friends or my husband um, you know, came home and smelled of alcohol, I I'd sort of recoil
00:07:13
and and feel like I was back at work. M >> um yeah, it's it's not it's not an attractive thing
00:07:19
>> when they're covered in sick and their makeup's run down their face and they're
00:07:23
um Yeah, >> it's not a good look. >> Yeah, under the unforgiving bright lights of a hospital.
00:07:28
>> Yeah, there's no hiding. >> Well, we're going to have to get you back for another another podcast just
00:07:33
about you and your experiences. Um but we'll get into the peptide stuff, eh? >> Okay,
00:07:38
>> first of all, what the hell is a peptide? >> That's a really good question. Um
00:07:42
because people think they're all new and shiny, but actually they've been around
00:07:45
for a long time. So you and I right now are probably making hundreds of peptides
00:07:49
in our own body. They're actually just uh little signaling molecules that are your ways uh your body's way of
00:07:54
communicating with cells. And we make a lot of them, a huge amount when we're young, but as we age, the amount that we
00:08:00
can make and maybe the quality of them can dwindle, which is where some of the appeal is. But if you think of um say
00:08:07
pieces of Lego, so one piece of Lego would be equivalent to one amino acid, which is like a building block of a
00:08:14
protein. And a protein is just a very complex um set of Lego bricks put together in a specific way, probably
00:08:21
more than 50 Lego bricks. Um and you can make all sorts of different proteins, but a peptide is actually shorter and
00:08:27
much more precise than that. So it's anywhere from say 2 to 50 blocks of Lego or amino acids. Um you can have
00:08:35
depeptides which are literally two Lego blocks. Um and what they do is they very
00:08:40
precisely give an instruction to the cell um by entering the cell via kind of like a lock and key mechanism. So each
00:08:47
each peptide is a very specific shape that fits into exact receptor on a cell like the right kind of lock and it will
00:08:54
say to the cell um via some instructions that it sends through the DNA in in the
00:08:59
nucleus of the cell um make more protein or reduce inflammation or speed up slow
00:09:04
down um have an effect that's very targeted and precise and so that's where a lot of the appeal is. whereas a
00:09:11
protein has a much more wide ranging impact. Um, and this is why peptides are quite different from drugs,
00:09:17
pharmaceutical drugs, which are a bit like a sledgehammer that breaks down the door. The peptide will just gently
00:09:22
unlock the door, push it open, and whisper an instruction. Um, peptides are everywhere though. You know, the first
00:09:27
peptide that we used in humans to my knowledge was probably insulin. Um, which was discovered back in 1921 and I
00:09:34
think in maybe 1963 we started manufacturing it before we got it from animals. And so that's a peptide that's
00:09:40
been on the market saving lives for decades, but people don't think of insulin for diabetics as a peptide.
00:09:47
>> Why do you think it's become pretty much word of the year in 2026? >> It has, hasn't it?
00:09:52
>> It's massive. It's everywhere. The Google searches are in the millions. >> It's the new pandemic peptides. Um,
00:09:59
variety of reasons. I think that uh there's probably four key reasons. One is that longevity medicine's become very
00:10:06
hot and trendy studied in science. You got Dr. Walter Longo and David Sinclair and these amazing scientists who are
00:10:12
>> bringing the science to the masses and then the podcasters um like you know Huberman
00:10:18
>> yes Huberman and Patrick and Peter they are delivering this longevity medicine
00:10:24
um to the masses and so there's a keen interest in longevity. Um the other thing is that um all of a sudden we are
00:10:31
able to manufacture peptides much more easily. So in the 60s it was an incredibly complex process and very
00:10:38
expensive. You needed a special lab and now pretty much um anyone could synthesize peptides with the right
00:10:44
facilities on mass so they're cheaper and more available. Then you've got social media which is just spreading
00:10:50
misinformation and information like wildfire. Um and there's an appetite for trends and fads.
00:10:56
>> Um so I think that is probably the the the main stay of it. And then the fact that we've got this gray market
00:11:05
now which actually makes it widely accessible. >> What's the gray market? How would you
00:11:09
how would you describe that? >> It's a bit different from the black market. So most of the raw materials um
00:11:15
come from China like the raw raw materials. And so if you just bought a vial of something from your mate on
00:11:20
WhatsApp who was linked to some Chinese uh manufacturer, that would be the black
00:11:25
market. The gray market is a step beyond that where someone has brought raw materials usually from China or
00:11:30
overseas. they have um reconstituted it, packaged it um and it is then available
00:11:37
for public use. But it's quite different to a proper manufacturing laboratory like a compounding lab or um a
00:11:43
pharmaceutical grade um manufacturing uh facility where they're actually making it according to really stringent
00:11:50
>> um standards. Purity um cold chain which is where you keep it cold the entire way
00:11:56
through the transportation process. um triple party independent testing for example. So the gray market is somewhere
00:12:03
in the middle. It's not currently legal um and there's a lot of problems with it, but it's where you buy them off Tik
00:12:09
Tok or um Reddit or social media um through um non-verified supply chains basically without a prescription.
00:12:18
>> What does the evidence say? Does it does it match the hype? >> Yes and no. So I think the hype around
00:12:24
peptides like GLP-1 is warranted because there's a massive uh bulk of evidence and so that's your gold standard. So
00:12:31
from one side you've got peptides like the GLP-1 agonist um drugs. >> What does that do?
00:12:36
>> So that's things like semaglutide and trespide and soon the the next generation is retatrite which is not on
00:12:42
the market yet. But these ones are um studied in thousands of patients um phase three clinical trials where it's
00:12:50
been through the whole process of proper human randomized control trials. It's been validated. We've got long-term
00:12:56
cardiac data, you know, heart heart health outcomes data. Um and so that has been approved by the FDA. It's been
00:13:04
approved by MedSafe and it's basically now a prescription medicine that's passed all the tests for human trials
00:13:09
and is deemed safe. and we've been using them for a few years and we've got some
00:13:13
long-term outcome data. Um then it goes all the way through to other peptides which are not studied in humans at all.
00:13:21
Uh for example um BPC157 is there's a wealth of animal rodent data. I think there's one tiny trial um
00:13:29
that was discarded early on in in humans but there's no human data. >> What's the purpose of that one? The BP
00:13:35
>> the the body protection compound 157. So that's actually a synthetic peptide fragment of body protection compound
00:13:42
which is a much bigger kind of 40 dolton protein that actually comes from um gastric juices in your stomach. And they
00:13:49
isolated this probably back in the era of Pavlov and his dogs. Um they he used to put holes in the side of the tummies
00:13:55
of his dogs, poor things, and drain off the gastric juices. And they discovered that actually when humans would drink
00:14:01
the gastric juices of these dogs, which sounds pretty disgusting. Um there was quite a trend for that back in the day.
00:14:07
Um it would cure their reflux and their peptic ulcer disease, cure their ailments of the of the tummy. Um and it
00:14:14
would promote wound healing and tissue healing and uh repair of tissues. And so there was this interest. And then I
00:14:20
think it was in Croatia 1991 that um some scientists actually isolated BBC57. So we are not making that. It's not a
00:14:28
natural peptide. It's synthesized. But it is looking pretty promising in rodent data for improving tissue repair and
00:14:37
healing and um reducing inflammation, new blood vessel growth, and healing gastric complaints like ulcers and maybe
00:14:44
even inflammatory bowel disease. >> I've got um I'm a I'm a lifelong runner. Um I've got some osteoarthritis issues
00:14:50
in my left knee. Um there's a bit of cartilage there, but not much. Is there a peptide that could help me?
00:14:56
Well, um, this is interesting territory because BPC57 is one of the hottest peptides on the gray market at the
00:15:03
moment because of the promising rodent data. So, they've taken um, rodents and they've actually completely transsected
00:15:10
their Achilles tendons uh, and watched rapid complete healing in record time when they give these rodents BPC57.
00:15:18
However, rodent data doesn't necessarily translate to human data. So it shows a mechanistic theory is is looking
00:15:26
promising um and and it has been quite compelling because there's a lot of data there. But the problem is that none of
00:15:31
it has actually filtered through to human clinical trials. And if we take a step back, the reason for that is that
00:15:37
years ago um there was a ruling I think by the Supreme Court in the USA saying look you cannot patent something that
00:15:44
occurs naturally in the human body. So the issue is that if you can't patent a peptide, no one's going to spend tens or
00:15:50
hundreds of millions of dollars on a human clinical trial that they then can't make any money by manufacturing
00:15:54
like a GLP-1 receptor agonist for example. >> Oh, like big farmers. So there's nothing
00:15:58
in it for them. >> There's nothing in it for them which is why a lot of this evidence is not
00:16:02
forthcoming. People aren't doing the trials. Um I think one of the things that would be useful is if people could
00:16:08
actually crowdfund and and do some clinical trials because there's such appetite and interest and they could be
00:16:13
very promising. M >> that sounds good. The rodent stuff sounds good. What's where can I go?
00:16:21
Where on the internet can I go for this gray market stuff you're talking about? >> Well, I'm not going to tell you that cuz
00:16:25
that would be highly irresponsible. But um you know if you if you went on to Tik
00:16:30
Tok, Reddit, Instagram, you would have no trouble finding these things. Um but there are some real issues with them. So
00:16:36
the thing that concerns me is that it's like a mass human experiment that no one
00:16:40
has designed, no one's monitoring, no one's following up. And a lot of the outcome data is skewed to be positive
00:16:46
because these people are trying to sell you something. And so you're not so often going to hear about the things
00:16:51
that go wrong. There might be the odd viral thing of someone saying, "I ordered growth hormone secret and I now
00:16:57
have this horrible orange tan because actually the peptide was not what it said on the label." So there's stories
00:17:02
like that that go around, but there's a whole swath of people saying, "I've lost
00:17:07
so much weight. I've gained so much muscle. I've anti-aged my face. My hair and skin and nails are amazing. I'm
00:17:13
healing rapidly. Um, but the issues with it are that you are getting something that you're injecting as a non-trained
00:17:20
person. Um, and there's all sorts of issues with potential infection or um, tissue damage with improper uh,
00:17:27
injection technique. But what is in these? So, where are they coming from? Um, are they contaminated? Are they
00:17:34
underdosed, overdosed? Are they mixed with other things? Is it actually what it says on the tin? Is it the right
00:17:40
peptide? Because if you don't make a peptide properly and you take shortcuts in the manufacturing process, you can
00:17:45
end up with peptides that are um slightly changed which can actually be recognized as foreign tissue in the body
00:17:51
and cause this big inflammatory foreign body material response which is really bad for you. Um they could be
00:17:58
contaminated with bacteria. Um you may have got them with poor cold chain. You know, they're meant to be kept cold a
00:18:04
lot of them. Uh so if they're warmed up in transit, uh it it's just a minefield.
00:18:09
And then you're injecting that into your body. It's kind of scary to me. >> Oh, are all peptides injectable?
00:18:17
>> No, not all of them. Um, a lot of peptides are destroyed when you take them orally by the um digestive enzymes
00:18:22
in your stomach. And so that the the bioavailability, which is how much of a drug you can actually use, is really
00:18:28
really poor. So many of them are injectable to bypass that um gut metabolism. Some of them like um Semax
00:18:35
and Salank which are sort of cognitive enhancing peptides uh you can get with an intraasal spray uh and that bypasses
00:18:42
the tummy as well but a lot of them are injectable. Yes. >> And in your clinic what are the most
00:18:47
common peptides or peptide related treatments that patients are asking you about? Um I've had a few women ask me
00:18:53
about GHK copper CU um because that is a peptide that has been really well studied in animals again but there's
00:19:00
there's not much human data u for wound healing tissue repair. It's supposed to affect um the genetic expression of your
00:19:08
fibroblasts in your skin which is like your skin stem cells to make more type one collagen to increase blood flow um
00:19:15
to basically resurface and regenerate the skin. And so there are creams that you can get where you apply it
00:19:20
topically. There's very little evidence for um injecting it. Um there's again theoretical tissue healing and
00:19:28
regeneration. I've had requests for growth hormone analoges. Um but often these patients the the diet's
00:19:37
not great. They're not consuming the right amount of protein. They're not weight training. And so you haven't got
00:19:42
the anabolic stimulus to actually grow the tissue in the first place. So there's really no point in injecting a a
00:19:47
growth hormone um if you're not even uh doing the foundations right. Uh so that's one of the biggest concerns is
00:19:54
people think this is a magic bullet and that they can continue drinking, smoking, being stressed, not sleeping,
00:19:59
and eating a poor diet and just inject a peptide and look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, but sadly that's not the
00:20:05
case. >> So are you sort of saying it it's the the icing on the cake rather than the
00:20:09
cake itself? >> Yeah, that's exactly the phrase I would use. Yeah. So with anything whether it's
00:20:14
supplements you know things like NAD and these longevity supplements um whether it's peptides your body is a very clever
00:20:22
machine and it will not thrive unless you are doing the foundational aspects u for your biological health well
00:20:29
>> so the number one is sleep um resistance training and and aerobic training eating
00:20:34
a good whole foods usually medi mediterranean style diet stress management is massive because high
00:20:40
cortisol has wide ranging impacts through the whole of your system. Um, and of course, if you're drinking
00:20:45
regularly, there's really no point in taking some of these expensive peptides and and supplements because I always say
00:20:52
it's like you're pouring liquid gold into a bathtub, but you've left the plug out. Like, you're literally wasting your
00:20:58
money. So, you can't outrun a bad diet or um, you know, 4 hours of sleep a night.
00:21:04
>> Uh, the peptides may be useful for someone who's doing all the foundational things really well and they're in good
00:21:10
metabolic health. they're insulin sensitive, well-slept, and fit and they're looking for that edge like a
00:21:15
competitive athlete or um someone who is perhaps going through an uh andropause or menopause and you know they're
00:21:22
they're struggling. >> Say one of your patients came to you >> and um they wanted a peptide that's not
00:21:29
available in New Zealand because they've seen it on Tik Tok or they've heard it on Hubman Lab. Um what what would you
00:21:35
would you would you tell them absolutely not do it or what what advice would you
00:21:39
give them? I think that the more you say no to a patient and just dismiss them, the more you drive them away and into
00:21:44
the gray market. Um, unfortunately, there's not been much training yet in New Zealand around peptides for doctors.
00:21:51
So, um, most doctors to my knowledge will not be familiar with a lot of peptides. Um, all of us need to study
00:21:57
and do quite a bit of reading about it because it's such a new and up and cominging area of medicine. But the best
00:22:02
way to approach a patient like that is to listen to them, to not be dismissive, to present the evidence and go through
00:22:09
some rational clinical questions with them, but also not just bend over and say, "Yes, absolutely, you can have
00:22:14
anything you want." Because that's highly irresponsible. So, usually it's analyzing, you know, what are they doing
00:22:20
the foundations right? What are they wanting the peptide for? Um, we discuss how on earth would you measure the
00:22:27
effect of the peptide, like what are you looking to change? um looking at their medications because a lot of these
00:22:32
peptides could interact with medications and for example if someone has an autoimmune condition and they want to
00:22:38
inject some um thyin um before then they can actually make themselves worse. So there's quite a fine line um it's all
00:22:45
about educating and being um open and curious not dismissive but also not being irresponsible uh for something
00:22:52
that's got no no human clinical data and and is so far not deemed safe to use in
00:22:58
humans. Is it against the law to buy these things online and import them to New Zealand?
00:23:04
>> Yes. >> Yes, it is. Yeah. I've actually got um all of the um legislation here for
00:23:12
prescribing in New Zealand cuz it's changed two or three times just since November. But Medsafe uh you know the
00:23:18
the Medson Act 1981 basically means that any drug that comes into New Zealand has
00:23:22
to be approved at ministry level as safe. Um then it's legal and it can go through normal prescribing routes. Um
00:23:29
there is something in New Zealand law called section 29 which a lot of patients aren't aware of and that means
00:23:34
that say you came to me and you wanted um a GLP-1 agulus medication but there hadd been a supply shortage of the
00:23:41
regular big farmer supply um but a compounding lab was able to make it then as long as I have your name um your
00:23:49
details we're treating a specific complaint um and we're getting it from a reputable source like a a compounding
00:23:55
lab um then we can actually proceed under section 29, but I take all responsibility for the impact that has
00:24:02
on you. You have to sign a special consent form and then actually we have to supply your name and the drug and the
00:24:08
dose to the compounding lab um who actually have to keep that on file in case Medsafe ever wants it. So there's
00:24:13
quite a process and we can only use it if there's nothing else available. Um, so that's the kind of section 29 pathway
00:24:20
that I don't believe other countries have um the same as us like the TGA in Australia and and the FDA, although I'm
00:24:26
not an expert in their legislation. So that's the loophole that would allow peptides to be produced cleanly, safely,
00:24:34
and prescribed here with clinical supervision to some degree. But yes, if you just buy them off the internet,
00:24:40
particularly if you try to import them without a prescription, that is illegal. I don't know how hard they're enforcing
00:24:45
it and um whether you'd actually be um prosecuted or not, but just cuz you're not prosecuted and you get away with it
00:24:51
doesn't mean that it's safe because basically who's looking after you? Um who's who's overseeing the treatment and
00:24:57
making sure that it's the right thing for you? >> Yeah. Do you really think with that gray
00:25:03
market stuff that you're talking about, it's a case of Russian roulette? >> Oh, yeah.
00:25:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> You really do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You said before that you you you
00:25:10
you don't believe in telling your patients no, but you you do um reiterate to them that it's illegal.
00:25:16
>> I just tell them the truth. >> I say this is what I know. I'm quite open about what I don't know cuz I'm not
00:25:21
a peptide expert. Like some of the guys in in the States have been prescribing peptides since 2014 cuz over there it
00:25:28
was actually um legal for a long time through compounding labs. It was only in uh I think 2024 that um the FDA did a
00:25:36
complete 180 and removed a load of section one agents which could be compounded in a laboratory um many many
00:25:43
peptides and moved them to something called section two which is actually a banned category that that took it off
00:25:49
the market from a clean clinical oversight route and pushed it into the gray market. But um next month um under
00:25:57
this new kind of make America healthy again initiative, I think uh they are reviewing at least seven maybe nine of
00:26:03
those peptides including BPC57 um and some of the um some of the others that people are really interested in and
00:26:11
they may end up back on a section one um which would mean that compounding labs could make them and then very
00:26:17
experienced physicians could prescribe them again and that will have a big impact on what happens here. Um because
00:26:22
one of the things that happened is there's a rule of two verification pathway that Medsafe actually brought
00:26:27
into place. Um and it's just been approved last month actually that if a peptide is um legal in at least two
00:26:35
other countries with internationally governed bodies like the TGA or or the FDA then there's a fasttrack process for
00:26:42
Medsafe to actually approve it in this country. Otherwise it's usually a very lengthy process to get something
00:26:46
approved. So that's quite an interesting space to watch. And the other one is that in November last year um the
00:26:53
section 29 was expanded to allow nurse practitioners and pharmaceutical um practitioners to prescribe uh which
00:27:01
widened the pool from just doctors. So now you've got a lot more people able to prescribe under that section 29 and I
00:27:07
think that will have a big impact too. >> Are safe doing a good job? You mentioned
00:27:11
before they've made like three three or four changes in the last like six months. Are they are they doing enough?
00:27:16
Are they doing are they being too protective? M uh great question. I can see both sides of an argument. One is
00:27:24
that I think they're doing a great job of being concerned around these peptides because uh it's not saying peptides are
00:27:31
never allowed in the country. It's saying hang on a minute, a lot of these have no human clinical data, no safety
00:27:36
trials. We don't know enough about what kind of dose people need, how um uh how they should be combined, what the
00:27:42
long-term impacts are. So I think caution is highly appropriate here and good regulation keeps patients safe.
00:27:49
>> But on the other side, I think that we have been caught on the back foot because social media has exploded
00:27:56
peptides because of the GLP-1 agonist um kind of tidal wave that has hit with celebrities and and high-profile public
00:28:03
figures losing a lot of weight and um and a lot of clinical trials coming in quite quickly that we're not keeping
00:28:09
pace with public demand. So the issue is that when you've got a regulatory over body that's not keeping pace with public
00:28:15
demand, you're just going to still have a big gray market. So we need to catch up quite quickly to make it as safe as
00:28:21
possible. >> I'm I'm 53. Um yeah, the anti-aging stuff. >> I'm curious about that. Is is it here?
00:28:30
Is it legal? Does it work? Is it a wonder drug? >> You know, I just listened to such an
00:28:34
interesting podcast on this by Have you heard of Dr. Valter Longo? No. He's an Italian American scientist who's very
00:28:40
big in the longevity field, a bit like David Sinclair. Um, and his argument is that people often come in in midlife
00:28:48
wanting growth hormone or growth hormone secrets which basically um mimic the effect of growth hormone because that
00:28:54
can help you build muscle quickly, lose um body fat potentially. Um, it helps with hair and skin growth and general
00:29:01
youth and energy and vitality. So you can see the appeal, deeply appealing for people and you see these transformations
00:29:08
um on on social media and of course people want that cuz they're struggling in midlife and we're not making as much
00:29:13
of our own growth hormone and everything's a little bit harder. Um but his argument is that all the clinical
00:29:19
trials over at least the last two or three decades have shown that when you put growth hormone to high levels and
00:29:26
you measure that in the blood via something called IGF-1 insulin like growth factor 1, it actually has an
00:29:32
inverse relationship with longevity. So the patients with naturally high growth hormone levels, have you heard of
00:29:37
acromegaly? >> No. It's a condition where people produce far too much growth hormone in
00:29:41
the pituitary gland in the brain and they get gigantism or um acromegalia is a condition where they they don't stop
00:29:48
growing big jaws, big skulls, huge frames. Um and when they've been studied, they actually die much younger
00:29:55
because of heart conditions like um cardiammyopathy where the heart grows too big. Um so they have a huge
00:30:01
increased risk of cardiac um mortality. um they have an increased cancer risk as
00:30:06
well um because you've got this unregulated cell turnover from too much growth hormone or or IGF-1 and they
00:30:13
often will live 40% less than someone without a growth hormone problem and then when they've studied lots of rats
00:30:20
and mice um the ones the strains that have very naturally low insulin like growth factor live 40% longer. So his
00:30:27
whole argument is why would you inject something that's actually going to reduce your lifespan, potentially give
00:30:34
you cardiac complications and potentially theoretically increase your risk of certain types of can cancer like
00:30:39
thyroid cancer and bowel cancer although the data there is not quite so clearcut.
00:30:44
Um and endocrinologists will actually take someone with acromegaly and give them hormone blockers to stop growth
00:30:50
hormone to bring their levels down. And yet on social media, you're seeing people boosting their IGF levels um up
00:30:57
into the realms of almost acromegaly, >> which potentially is not safe at all. And no one's studying these patients
00:31:03
long term. >> So caution is advised. >> How do you how do you feel as a medical professional when you're doom scrolling
00:31:10
on Tik Tok and you see something that you know is [ __ ] >> I don't have a Tik Tok account. When it
00:31:14
first came out, I said, I'm not going there. I will waste my life. I'll get lost. Um so I've deliberately avoided
00:31:20
Tik Tok. I do have some really good teachers on Instagram. Um I tend to only follow people who inspire me. I don't
00:31:27
generally follow um like the masses for public trends, but I did delve into it a
00:31:31
little bit when I started learning about podcasts. >> And the thing that saddens me is I see
00:31:36
these 17year-olds injecting themselves with peptide stacks like the Wolverine stack and um you know, the Trinity stack
00:31:42
and and it's just talking about how incredible they are. And I'm like, you don't need this. You're 17. You have
00:31:49
masses of growth hormone. You're at the peak of your your life. You all your peptides are so tip top. You do not need
00:31:56
peptides. You need to stop drinking cans of V at 9:00 at night and get off your screens. Stop scrolling YouTube till
00:32:03
1:00 in the morning. Eat a whole food diet, not loads of processed junk. Um, socialize in real time with people
00:32:09
instead of just having these remote digital um, friendships. And um, and just get out in the sunshine and
00:32:16
exercise and eat well. do do the normal things cuz your body will be like an elastic band. You know, if you do the
00:32:22
right things, you'll twang back into optimal health in about a month. >> Bit different for you and I.
00:32:27
>> Um yeah, but that makes me sad. >> Very generous of you to say you and I. >> Yeah, it makes me sad because um they
00:32:35
don't need it and no one knows what they're doing to themselves long term. >> Yeah.
00:32:40
>> Yeah. You mentioned um a couple of phrases there, the um the Wolverine stack or the triple stack um which
00:32:45
people say can transform the body or speed up recovery. >> Um why should we know about that?
00:32:51
>> Is that is that safe and legal here in New Zealand or no? >> No. Um so it's banned first of all by
00:32:58
the World Anti-Doping Association. So it's wider banned. So any athlete listening do not take the Wolverine
00:33:04
stack because you will get penalized heavily. Um it's basically BPC57 which we've talked a little bit about. Uh and
00:33:10
it's something called TB500 which is a synthetic fragment of um an immune modulating bigger peptide called
00:33:16
thyosin. So it is named after the Marvel character who can regenerate any tissue
00:33:22
injury and lives forever and is very muscular. Um and they reckon that you know in animals it stimulates
00:33:29
angioenesis which is growth of new blood vessels um and tissue repair and it's um
00:33:34
immune modulating so it's anti-inflammatory um and these two things are complimentary so they both work in
00:33:41
different ways to towards the same goal but there's no human randomized control trials for this combination at all. So
00:33:48
we just don't know >> we don't know the impact of taking two of them at once. What happens longterm?
00:33:53
Um there's very strong rodent data for both individual components, but both are banned. So if you're an athlete and
00:34:00
you're competing at any kind of level, these are banned in and out of competition and you can test for them.
00:34:09
>> Yeah. What about for someone that wants to get bigger but is has no intention of
00:34:13
competing at a professional level or even an amateur level? >> Yeah. Um they're not ne the Wolverine
00:34:19
stacker to my knowledge isn't going to make you bigger. It's not like a growth hormone secret. Um it is more about
00:34:24
tissue repair and regeneration and healing. Um so it's more about being able to train and recover from injury.
00:34:31
Uh but yeah, most people if they want to get really big and get a lot of muscle quickly, they would go down the growth
00:34:37
hormone route. Yeah. >> We've we've talked about a few different podcasters and influencers on the
00:34:43
podcast already. Are you familiar with Brian Johnson? >> I am with Brian Johnson. I actually I
00:34:48
watched his um his little uh documentary on Netflix out of sheer curiosity. Yeah.
00:34:52
What do you make of him? >> Look, I have mixed feelings. I think good on him for first of all putting all
00:34:58
his data out in the public domain. Um having medical oversight and publishing everything so that it's not just hearsay
00:35:05
of look how amazing I am. These are the pep times I'm taking, which is what most
00:35:09
people are doing on on social media. >> But we've got to remember that, you know, he's incredibly well resourced. I
00:35:15
believe he spends $2 million a year on this. Nobody else has that kind of money apart from the very few. um n equals 1.
00:35:22
It's a study of one person. We're looking at one genotype, one one genetic kind of um uh individual. He's got such
00:35:30
a stringent lifestyle that's utterly controlled. His sleep is optimized. His diet is exceptional. He calorie
00:35:37
restricts. Um he has all sorts of components like red light, blue light. Um he's taking all these supplements. He
00:35:43
trains hard. He's doing so much that who can tell whether what he's achieving is
00:35:49
due to getting the foundations incredibly beautifully right like most of us dream of or the supplements or the
00:35:56
peptides or the combination of everything. It's kind of impossible to detangle all of those things. So on the
00:36:02
one hand he is pushing the frontiers of longevity medicine via volunteering himself as a human experiment but he's
00:36:09
one man. Most people couldn't hope to ever emulate that kind of scenario. And um potentially it is bringing a lot of
00:36:18
peptides into the spotlight that are being used in an unsupervised unregulated way.
00:36:24
>> But I do like what he's doing in terms of promoting health and self-care and getting people out exercising and
00:36:30
running and there there's definitely a positive influence as well. So I'm I'm polarized.
00:36:36
>> He he intends to or wants to live to 120, but [ __ ] there'll be 120 miserable
00:36:40
years, won't they? Well, he says he's never been happier. >> From morning to night, you know, all
00:36:45
he's thinking about is living longer. >> Yeah. And I can I can see the the concern there, but he does say he's the
00:36:50
happiest he's ever been. So I suppose when someone has, you know, the Japanese ighai or purpose and passion, maybe that
00:36:57
just lights him up and maybe he feels so good, like most of my patients feel so good when they sleep well, eat well,
00:37:03
exercise >> without any peptides that they would never go back to drinking and alcohol um
00:37:09
binges and take takeaways and you know all the stuff that depletes you >> because they get addicted to feeling
00:37:14
good. So you know, maybe he's happy, but I I wouldn't fancy that lifestyle. It's
00:37:18
very rigid. >> Yeah. No, same here. Same here. a fascinating guy to follow though.
00:37:23
>> He is. Yeah, he's interesting >> and he actually posts some good stuff on Instagram as well.
00:37:27
>> Yeah. Um are there any non-approved or experimental peptides that you think are
00:37:31
genuinely interesting even if the evidence isn't quite there yet? >> Yes. So um you may have heard of some of
00:37:36
these Russian peptides Cax and Sank. So they've been actually um heavily studied
00:37:41
in humans but in Russia and Eastern Europe. And so um a lot of this over the last few decades has been very closed
00:37:48
in-house research that wasn't available to the western world. Um also a lot of the trials are um small um they wouldn't
00:37:56
sort of follow the rigorous standards that perhaps in America and the west we would expect from randomized double
00:38:02
blind control trials which are the gold standard. >> So they're legal in Russia. Um but
00:38:07
there's this huge gray area of whether the data can be um trusted or not or replicated. Um but these are uh
00:38:15
intraasal sprays. Um cel is used for mainly reducing anxiety. Um it's calm without the dumb a bit like
00:38:23
benzodizopines but without the kind of numbing effect. And then Cax is a cognitive enhancer that um often the two
00:38:31
are used together um like racehorse and and break so that you don't have too much stimulation. So they're very
00:38:37
interesting. Uh they're actually used in a lot of longevity clinics all over the
00:38:41
world, particularly where there's Russian scientists or doctors involved, but they're not yet legal here.
00:38:47
>> Interesting. What what speaking of that, what peptide treatments are available
00:38:51
legally and safely in New Zealand? >> Well, the two that spring to mind very quickly are um semiglutide, which is
00:38:58
marketed here as WGO for weight loss. Um people get confused because a Zmpic is actually the same drug. It was marketed
00:39:05
for diabetes. Um and then also Trespatide is a relatively new drug um that's just come onto the market. So uh
00:39:13
the GLP1 agonists um the first ones that came out and made a huge impact with weight loss and improving cardioabolic
00:39:20
health were basically some glutide and then trappepide works on two different receptors. So both of those are
00:39:26
available on prescription. Um, and they I think they'll be used for wider ranging implications than just improving
00:39:32
weight and metabolic health because the outcomes data on improving heart health is quite strong. And then they're
00:39:38
looking at it what impact it has on dementia and all sorts of other wide ranging immune modulating kind of
00:39:43
properties. And the one the very hot topic that everyone's talking about and using illicitly on social media is
00:39:48
something called retatride which works on three different receptors um in the gut and in the liver to regulate your
00:39:55
blood sugar, reduce appetite, often will downregulate kind of cravings for alcohol and sugar in your brain and
00:40:01
increase satiety um and also has again this wide range of of potentially beneficial impacts. So those two and
00:40:09
soon ratutide once it's finished its phase three clinical trials and is released will be utterly legal. Um and
00:40:15
any GP could prescribe them not via section 29 just the normal prescribing route.
00:40:20
>> What's the last one you said? Retatide. >> Retatrutide. >> Yeah. What does it do?
00:40:24
>> It just or reta as it's called on on social media. So retatrutide is um an even more potent generation of um this
00:40:32
GLP-1 agonist. So it works on a couple of different receptors as well. M >> uh and it has profound weight loss in
00:40:39
the clinical trials. Yeah. So >> what about um downside or side effect for these things?
00:40:44
>> Well, there's plenty of side effects. So up to 50% of people will experience side
00:40:47
effects and it's heavily um dependent on the dose. So if you start on the um usual regime and go up every 4 weeks. Um
00:40:55
half of patients will get things like constipation, diarrhea, um acid reflux or you know um indigestion, belching,
00:41:04
bloating, basically tummy upset, um nausea is a big complaint. Um it basically can blunt your appetite so
00:41:12
much that you would just stop eating. And so the concern is that if you're not having clinical oversight, if you say um
00:41:18
had a pretty poor diet, low in protein, but high in inflammatory kind of chemicals and fats and processed foods,
00:41:25
you weren't strength training, you weren't sleeping well, and you hadn't had your hormones and cortisol and
00:41:30
thyroid looked at, then um you're going to blunt your appetite and go into both a calorie restriction and a protein
00:41:36
restriction. And the the main thing they've shown is that that kind of patient could lose, you know, easily a
00:41:41
quarter to a third of their um body weight being muscle rather than just fat. And apparently over several years
00:41:50
only a very small percentage will stay on the drug cuz it's expensive. It can cost hundreds of dollars depending on
00:41:55
which drug and what what dose you're on each month. So that prohibits it from many people in a population. And so many
00:42:02
people have side effects that they don't stay on. And the danger is that the um the studies show you get rebound weight
00:42:07
gain plus or minus about 2 kilos. You can get this thing called hypophasia where you get insane hunger. And some of
00:42:14
my patients have come in being started on it by other physicians and they've come off it and they say I just stand in
00:42:19
front of the fridge and I can't stop eating. Um it's like a rebound hunger that comes and it's, you know, it's
00:42:24
intense. Uh, and then potentially if they've lost muscle and regained a lot of fat, your metabolic engine, uh, which
00:42:32
is your longevity tool, your muscle mass that keeps you insulin sensitive and metabolically healthy, is diminished and
00:42:37
it takes a long time to build that back. And if they weren't training and eating
00:42:40
well, it's unlikely they're going to do that. >> So, they're the main concerns with it.
00:42:45
>> So, a patient comes to you and they they want to lose weight um, and they've heard about OMIC or WOVI or whatever.
00:42:51
What do you what do you say to them? Do you give them the doctor spiel about trying to lose the weight first?
00:42:55
>> I never ever say eat less, move more. >> You will never hear that come out of my
00:43:00
mouth. Um, no, we have a long chat. So, I I founded Autonomy Health in Remier. And what we do is we bring these
00:43:06
patients in. We we look at over a hundred biomarkers ranging from their insulin sensitivity which is the most
00:43:13
important thing with weight management uh their cortisol levels uh their levels of inflammation and then we look at all
00:43:19
of the other hormonal aspects and and um general health markers plus 3D body scans to assess their muscle mass and
00:43:26
their body composition. Um and then also a big deep dive into their lifestyle. How are they sleeping, eating, thinking,
00:43:32
moving? Um what are the barriers? So you get a really good holistic overview of the person. Um, and we find out where
00:43:38
are the deficits in their lifestyle that are promoting disease rather than health
00:43:42
and what are the barriers and what's stopping them from doing it because I'd say 98% of my patients don't need GLP1
00:43:48
agonist um, receptor therapy. We do it without that. The ones who usually come to me are often already on it. They've
00:43:56
got it from online websites where there's a doctor prescribing it but there's very little oversight and
00:44:01
followup and you know they might not even get blood tests. Um some blood tests are really important to track um
00:44:06
looking at the pancreas and and the gut for example. >> And um either they will be weaned off it
00:44:11
or we'll supervise them and take over the prescribing but always in conjunction with health coaching and
00:44:17
lifestyle modification. So, they're always eating enough protein, they're strength training, they're looking at
00:44:22
their sleep, they're reducing their stress, we're dealing with their thyroid issues or their hormone replacement,
00:44:27
whatever they need. >> You mentioned in that answer, you mentioned um the word biomarkers. Um
00:44:33
which reminds me of another word that I've been hearing a lot on podcast and on Tik Tok and Instagram, biohacking.
00:44:38
What is biohacking? >> It's just some fancy tech bro term for something humans have been doing
00:44:42
forever. Humans have been for thousands of years. >> I think you almost did an eye roll then.
00:44:47
>> Yeah, a little bit. Um, look, it was a trendy term. Um, but humans for so long
00:44:52
have been trying to optimize how they feel, think, and move. Um, whether it's cold plunges or resistance training or
00:45:00
eating certain um, diets. Um, you know, optimizing their sleep. So, biohacking is just a natural way of modulating your
00:45:08
environment and and your activity to achieve optimum health. >> But it's become this kind of, you know,
00:45:14
tech bro term that's gone viral. Um, and peptides fall very much into that category of biohacking.
00:45:21
>> Yeah. >> In terms of peptides, so you you're you're highly intelligent. You're a
00:45:25
medical professional. Thank you. You're also Well, I'm just basing that on um the 45 minutes we've spent together so
00:45:31
far. Um, you're also in the third trimester of a pregnancy at the moment. Um, what would you feel comfortable
00:45:36
taking? >> Oh, I had some peptides this morning with my breakfast. I had some I had some
00:45:40
hydro hydrayzeed collagen bovine peptides. >> What does that do? Um, so I use those
00:45:45
particularly to boost my protein intake. Um, and they're really good for gut lining and repair. There's some decent
00:45:51
evidence for um, joint health. Um, but I think collagen is something that is very
00:45:58
safe. It's over the counter. It's been incredibly well studied. So I I do joke that I'm on the peptides, but um, it's
00:46:04
the most benign, boring form that you can imagine. >> Yeah. >> Certainly not injecting anything.
00:46:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, the the injecting aspect of it um puts me off and I'm sure it put a lot of
00:46:16
people off as well. >> No one likes the thought of needles, do they? >> Well, we say that, but you know, the
00:46:20
onslaught of the GLP-1 agonist has really brought injecting into mainstream acceptability because uh it's the only
00:46:26
way to give a GLP-1 receptor agonist uh medication like semiglutide or trapide. >> Um they don't they don't work anywhere
00:46:33
near as well orally. And so you see all these people injecting on social media and it's normalized it. But my concern
00:46:39
is who's taught them how to inject? Um how are they looking after the vials? What's in the vials? Um there's a
00:46:46
there's a problem there unless it's medically supervised. >> For for the average Kiwi, what health
00:46:51
advice matters more than any peptide? >> Sleep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Really? >> So if you had to pick one topic, it
00:46:58
would be sleep. So if you are sleeping 7 to nine hours, good quality sleep, great
00:47:02
REM, great deep um that is really the foundation and unless you're doing that right, nothing else is going to work as
00:47:08
well. So for example, if I took you as a relatively healthy person and put you through 4 hours of of sleep for say five
00:47:16
or seven nights, you would go from being insulin sensitive to insulin resistant.
00:47:20
All your markers would resemble someone with pre-diabetes. Your inflammatory markers might go up. If I scored your
00:47:26
mental and emotional health before and after the experiment, there would be a big change. Um, much more likely to be
00:47:31
anxious, depressed, overwhelmed, irritable. Um, and it's pretty hard for the body to function anywhere near
00:47:38
optimum without sleep. So, that's number one. And then of course we really should
00:47:44
um look at our diets because a whole food Mediterranean or um healthy Asian style diet uh that's rich in you know um
00:47:52
omega-3 um healthy plant and and and some animal fats mainly fish loads of vegetables like 800 gram of veggies a
00:48:00
day and polyphenol rich berries and things like that lots of nuts that is absolute medicine for the body and
00:48:05
there's no pill that can replicate that. So people always try and take shortcuts,
00:48:09
but you actually can't get away from the foundational stuff. >> And then movement is so crucial. So
00:48:14
resistance training, lifelong with intention. Um your V2 max from aerobic training. You'll know all about this as
00:48:21
a runner. Super important. >> And the things that are going to help you live long as a human are your V2
00:48:26
max, how fit you are, how strong you are, how much muscle you have, and and balanced and stability through your
00:48:31
joints, and how well socially connected you are. >> So we always work on those things.
00:48:39
No one wants the boring answers though. Do they move more, sleep more? >> I always say it's it seems boring and
00:48:44
you know it's not a shiny peptide that you inject. But honestly, patients who do these foundational things well feel
00:48:50
so good that they never go back. >> They just don't go back. They get addicted to feeling good. And there's no
00:48:55
peptide on the planet that's going to make you feel as good as doing the foundational things right. The issue is
00:49:00
that people aren't getting the foundation right. And they're thinking that the peptide is going to be this
00:49:04
magic cure all. And as humans, we always want the shiny thing. You know, we're magpies, aren't we? I even feel the pull
00:49:10
towards it myself, and I have to say, "No, no, that's not real." Um, but you can't get around that. There's no pill
00:49:18
on the planet to replace exercise and sleep. So, I'd say that is the exciting stuff. When you get it right, you feel
00:49:24
amazing. >> What do you think of wearables? >> Well, I have a couple on. >> Do you have What is that like a whoop?
00:49:30
>> This is an aura ring. I've worn an aura ring since um 2018. and I was one of the
00:49:35
first people to kind of adopt it. I think this is my fourth ring now. >> Um, I absolutely love the Aura Ring. Uh,
00:49:41
I love the fact that it tells me my heart rate variability, which is going down at the moment. Um, sleep quality.
00:49:47
Um, it it tracks temperature. Uh, it does so much. So, I'm a big fan of Aura. Um, I also use a Fitbit because I quite
00:49:55
like that for my activity levels. But, there's all sorts of options out there. Whoop, um, Garmin, Samsung Hovering.
00:50:03
There's plenty to choose from, but Aura is pretty up there in terms of um being highly reliable data.
00:50:10
>> Yeah. >> Is it an issue with people getting addicted to the data >> sometimes? So, I've got becoming
00:50:17
obsessed. >> Yeah. So, there's definitely a group of patients who don't benefit from
00:50:20
wearables, particularly with sleep tracking. So, if you've got a patient with chronic insomnia and you you put a
00:50:25
ring on them or or a watch and it consistently tells them you're underslept, um you've got poor sleep
00:50:31
scores, and then they read all this literature from, you know, from Matthew Walker's book, Why We Sleep was
00:50:35
incredible, but it's brought to the forefront the fact that you're more at risk of dementia, heart disease,
00:50:40
obesity, all these bad things, cancer, if you don't sleep well. So you take that person who then sees consistently
00:50:46
bad sleep scores, reads about how they're going to die young, um it just causes more anxiety and and they start
00:50:51
doom looping. So actually we take the wearable away from those people and I send them to our intuitive sleep um
00:50:57
specialist Kate who's incredible um to work with them on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and you know all
00:51:04
sorts of other um circadian rhythm anchoring. And then the other group of people that it's not great for are the
00:51:09
people who become utterly obsessed and come to me with huge tables of all the interventions they've tried to improve
00:51:16
their deep sleep and they're so fixated on it that it's not healthy. And so we try and move people away from being
00:51:21
obsessive and fixated because that in itself is a form of psychological stress that's going to make you sleep worse.
00:51:26
>> But for lots of people it's really useful even if you use it periodically as a check-in. I I'm someone who um
00:51:32
likes to see it most days. I find it helpful. >> Wow. That's interesting. >> Yeah. Um, Steven Bartlett, you must be
00:51:37
familiar with him. >> He was not. >> Yeah. Do I hear of Do I have a CEO? Um, he he's got a bit of heat online. I
00:51:44
think he might be addicted to his wearables. Um, there's a a a bit from a podcast that went a bit viral, him
00:51:49
talking about how he had three glasses of wine one night >> and it messed him up for like 3 or 4
00:51:53
days afterwards, like in terms of the productivity, the sleep, and his motivation to exercise. And he's been
00:51:59
slammed a bit for that. And it sort of started a conversation about people getting obsessed with wearables and the
00:52:04
data. What do you make of all that? >> Well, I'm actually on his side on this one because one of the things we do at
00:52:10
Autonomy and in my medicine practice in general is to help patients understand their own physiology. So, I think it's
00:52:16
an incredibly useful tool for someone who drinks fairly regularly to drink and see what happens to their sleep data and
00:52:22
to go through an experiment of not drinking and see what happens to the sleep data and then make an informed
00:52:26
decision about whether it's worth it or not. So he's saying clearly that um you know a moderate amount of alcohol was
00:52:32
not worth it for him and he wants to publicize why so that people can understand.
00:52:36
>> Um and I think that's helpful. I don't think that's obsessive. I think if you
00:52:41
uh did it all the time uh then potentially it could be unhealthy. But I think it's really powerful to understand
00:52:47
and that's why we also use these continuous glucose monitors because when you see your own physiology in real
00:52:52
time, say you and I ate a plate of muffins or donuts right now with a continuous glucose monitor on. I know my
00:52:58
blood sugar would probably go up to 10. Um it's really powerful to kind have that kind of bio feedback in real time
00:53:04
to learn what your body likes and doesn't like because there's no oneizefits-all.
00:53:08
>> That's why a lot of diets and and interventions don't work cuz humans are so different. Uh, we all require a
00:53:14
pretty unique approach within reason. >> What's your personal relationship like with alcohol?
00:53:19
>> I don't drink, especially at the moment. I thought it better not poison the fetus. That's not kind. Um,
00:53:25
>> you know, outside of pregnancy, though. >> Uh, yeah. Well, I'll I'll tell you the
00:53:29
story cuz um, basically I grew up in um, the '9s and naughties in Britain, which
00:53:33
is a massive binge drinking culture. And so, from about 15, we were out clubbing
00:53:38
and binge drinking cuz everyone else did it and it was completely normalized. And
00:53:41
the more the more you drank, the harder you were, you know, the better you were.
00:53:44
So it was glorified. >> Um >> that that is definitely the same here as well. >> Yeah. Or I think Britain and and New
00:53:50
Zealand are pretty similar, >> of course. >> And then when we went to med school, um
00:53:54
you know, the law students and the med school students who worked the hardest in terms of we had 50 hours of lectures
00:53:59
a week um were the hardest parters and drinkers. And so all of us um to my knowledge were what you'd class as as
00:54:07
bad binge drinkers. Um again, completely normalized. So started life as a heavy binge drinking student.
00:54:14
>> Um gradually uh weaned that down just because you know you work very hard as a
00:54:18
junior doctor and drinking and doing a 16our shift are not compatible. >> Um and then became a very sporadic
00:54:25
drinker through the 30s. Never drank at home. I actually don't like wine which makes me quite unusual. So I've never
00:54:30
opened a bottle of wine at home but I would definitely socially go out and have two or three cocktails with
00:54:34
friends. >> And at 40 um my husband and I decided oh let's start a family. bit late but I had
00:54:39
20 years of career uh so stopped drinking in preparation for that for health and then have never gone back so
00:54:46
I'd say my relationship now with alcohol is largely a non-drinker not bothered in
00:54:51
the slightest by it have never been attached to it was more a cultural thing >> but if I went to a wedding I would have
00:54:57
a nice glass of champagne maybe well to enjoy it um without any guilt so mainly a non-drinker but not strictly tea total
00:55:06
>> and I think that's how I'll be for the rest of my Yeah, >> I like to feel good and sleep well. Um,
00:55:12
and I definitely notice even a couple of drinks, my sleep's fragmented and I feel
00:55:16
pretty groggy. And with a three-year-old at home who wakes up early, it's just not compatible with joy.
00:55:23
>> No, no, no. Kids don't give a [ __ ] what you did the night before, do they? >> No. And I I have to shout out to my
00:55:28
husband cuz my son woke up at 4 this morning and he took one for the team and so I've had enough sleep and he hasn't
00:55:33
and it's be my turn this weekend. So, so being um being a mom in her 40s in in fertility terms, you're you're known as
00:55:41
a geriatric. >> Oh, I'm a grand geriatric. >> Really? The next tear up on the pyramid.
00:55:46
>> Yeah. But biologically my age I I've been told is much younger. So I think that's why it's been possible. Um I did
00:55:52
do quite a bit of testing on biological and heart age um in the years gone by. >> Uh there's a few different ways you can
00:55:58
measure that. And so I think all the supplements and the lifestyle stuff I've done over the years being a geek has
00:56:04
hopefully been helpful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah. You you you'll want to be as
00:56:08
healthy as possible for as long as possible. Obviously, >> that's the thing. And that's that's a
00:56:12
conversation we had. You know, if we're going to have children late, we better damn well be running around in our 60s
00:56:16
and 70s >> 100%. >> So, um we both are pretty healthy. Yeah. >> So, you you have your finger on the
00:56:22
pulse about all the all the anti-aging uh peptides. I am quite interested in the GHK copper creams I must admit
00:56:29
because um no woman wants uh saggy baggy skin and so the idea of having a cream laced with
00:56:37
peptides that regenerates your collagen is quite appealing but you can't get it here in New Zealand so you know I'm
00:56:43
interested in that space. Um >> is it a gray market one? >> It is at the moment you can buy it in
00:56:47
Australia but here it would be a gray market one. I don't think anyone's even importing it. I'd like to be corrected
00:56:52
on that. So if any of your listeners know otherwise, please do share. >> Okay. So if a listener or viewer to this
00:56:58
podcast is peptide curious, what's the safe first step? >> I think the very best step is to find
00:57:05
someone medical who you can have a really good conversation with. So there is a real danger that you'll go to your
00:57:11
doctor and they will dismiss you out of hand and you'll walk away and say, "Well, I'm definitely going down the
00:57:16
gray market route now." So that's not the best approach medically, I think. Um, but find a doctor who can um have a
00:57:22
good chat with you about what are you trying to achieve? What are you doing that's not working for you? What else
00:57:26
have you tried? What conditions do you have that might preclude certain um uh peptides? For example, do you have an
00:57:33
autoimmune condition that would mean some of these peptides are really dangerous? Um, do you have an active
00:57:38
cancer history or a strong family history, in which case you really wouldn't want to go down the growth
00:57:42
hormone route. Um, are you on any medications they could interact with? and then have a conversation about this
00:57:49
is what the evidence shows, these are the risks, these are the potential benefits, this this is the unknown. Um,
00:57:55
and you may not walk away with a prescription, but at least you'll have had um a really good conversation and
00:57:59
and some information so you can make a better decision for your own health. And there will be some doctors um in the
00:58:04
coming years who will be prescribing peptides and using section 29 to get that. So, I would always go clinical
00:58:10
oversight. Otherwise, you're just a human experiment. Um, taking risks that are not necessary.
00:58:16
>> God, you seem like a good doctor. Are you taking on more patients? >> Yes, >> you are.
00:58:20
>> Yeah, we take lots of patients. >> I might have to switch over. Might be time for a change. What's What's If I
00:58:26
ask you for some Zopones? How many would you give me? >> Zero. I hate I hate Zopone. Um I
00:58:32
actively wean all my patients off zopocone because um sleeping tablets like zopocone are associated with an
00:58:38
increase in all cause mortality which means that they increase your chances of death from many causes.
00:58:44
>> The problem with them is they completely suppress your brain into a comeomaos
00:58:47
state but they disrupt the the normal sleep architecture of deep wave um rapid eye movement sleep that's healing in its
00:58:54
own way. So you need deep sleep to clear your brain via the lymphatic system of all the toxins and debris that build up.
00:59:01
And that's one of the things that protects you from Alzheimer's. And your REM sleep is when you consolidate
00:59:05
memories and and emotionally regulate and process. So if you don't have those key sleep architecture pieces overnight,
00:59:11
you're not getting any of the benefits. Um and zopocone uh and benzoazipines are
00:59:16
addictive. Um they suppress normal sleep and and they're just not healthy and they're also a band-aid. um you're not
00:59:22
dealing with a root issue, which is why we have a um intuitive sleep consultant that we work with or autonomy to to help
00:59:28
actually go back and fix the root cause rather than just giving a tablet. >> Sorry to disappoint you, but you'll
00:59:35
never ever get a zopathlon script from me. No one will. >> I'm not firing my doctor just yet. What
00:59:40
about if you're just using them for special occasions like and what I mean by that is say I'm running overseas to
00:59:44
do a marathon somewhere and I want to adjust to the time zone as quickly as possible or get some sleep on the plane.
00:59:50
Are they okay on those occasions? >> Would you give me one for that? >> I think there is nothing wrong with
00:59:56
taking a sleeping tablet for one or two nights very sporadically. Um, it's when people get a prescription for them and
01:00:02
they're using them long term and and they become dependent on them that there's a real problem. Um, and when the
01:00:07
key kind of drivers of their insomnia or their sleep problem are not being addressed, that's something I don't
01:00:12
like. >> Um, but there are other ways to modulate your circadian rhythm like the timing
01:00:17
and dose of melatonin. um other compounds um just lifestyle stuff around light exposure. There's some very funky
01:00:24
glasses and um lux lamps that you can get now to train your body into a new time zone. Um so that's what we work
01:00:31
with. >> This has been a great chat. >> Oh, good. >> It's been really really cool. Um yeah,
01:00:37
baby brain's not a thing for you, is it? >> You've remembered some like big uh medical terms today.
01:00:45
>> My brain used to be much sharper at 30 than at 40. Um, but there are things that I can do to help it, such as
01:00:51
sleeping well and eating well. >> Do you have a strict morning routine or anything? A lot of the podcasters and
01:00:55
Tik Tockers we've sort of talked about in this hour, um, they, you know, go on about the morning routine, and it's very
01:01:00
structured. >> I do have a few things. I I tend to get up at the same time every day. So, a
01:01:04
regulated sleepwake cycle is super protective. And we're talking not deviating even more than 15 to 30
01:01:10
minutes. Um so top level college athletes who de deviated you know 45 minutes from their sleepwake cycle had a
01:01:17
noticeable impairment in their physiology and performance and I think these are these superhumans of society
01:01:22
in the prime of their lives. So you and I as mere mortals are definitely going to be impacted by the social jet lag of
01:01:28
getting up and going to bed hours later at the weekend. So I do that. Um when I do get up I tend to um view morning
01:01:35
light as soon as possible. So, I'll drink 500 mls of warm water with a little bit of salt and I'll I'll go
01:01:40
outside um and try and get a bare minimum of five minutes, but preferably 15 20 minutes of sunlight just to
01:01:47
support that natural cortisol awakening response. Um I tend to eat a high protein breakfast within half an hour of
01:01:53
waking. Not just because of pregnancy, but in general that's um really beneficial for most women over 40.
01:01:59
>> Um talking, you know, 30 plus grams of protein. and um yeah, just spend time with my family, try not to look at the
01:02:06
phone or work for the first half an hour or hour. Uh and just be in the moment. That's my very simple routine. I also
01:02:14
take some supplements with my breakfast, but >> Yeah. What do you like in terms of
01:02:17
supplements? >> Oh, yeah. I'm quite good at those. I take quite a few. >> You mentioned the the collagen before.
01:02:23
>> Yeah. So, I do take collagen um mainly for joint health for me in particular um
01:02:28
because of the way I'm wired. Uh, I take highdose omega-3 fish oils. So, at the moment, I'm leaning more towards DHA
01:02:34
because of of what I need at the moment, but I'll also take highdose fish oils twice a day with EPA. Um, I love
01:02:41
creatin. I'm not taking it at the moment, but I'm a big fan of creatin. I'll take 10 grams of that
01:02:45
>> for the brain or the body. >> Uh, both, but mainly um, well, actually 50/50. I noticed a massive difference in
01:02:51
the gym within two weeks of taking it in terms of what I could lift, recovery, um, performance, but also better brain.
01:02:58
So, if anyone's really sleepd deprived, um, creatine is amazing for reducing metabolic stress in the brain. Um,
01:03:04
>> is it going to wreck my kidneys? >> Well, that's a good question. So, anyone who's got chronic kidney disease, uh,
01:03:10
should proceed with caution and under medical supervision because it can be an extra strain. But for anyone who is
01:03:16
young, well hydrated, and has normal kidney function, it shouldn't be a problem at all.
01:03:20
>> Yeah. But these things should always be overseen by a doctor. Yeah. I don't think anyone should be supplementing
01:03:25
without asking a few key questions like what am I trying to achieve? What am I targeting? How am I going to measure the
01:03:31
impact of it? Where am I sourcing it? What are the studies on this? And what dose is appropriate?
01:03:36
>> Um for example, many fish oils that you buy over the counter are incredibly weak
01:03:40
and almost homeopathic compared to what you need to create an epigenetic change and and change your cholesterol and
01:03:47
>> um inflammatory levels. M >> so peptides where do you see them sitting in New Zealand medicine in say 5
01:03:54
years time 10 years time? >> Oh I think they're up and coming. Um so next month depending on what happens in
01:03:59
the states and and how many of these peptides are potentially moved from the banned category 2 to the the um
01:04:05
legitimate category 1. I think that's going to have a big flow on effect to New Zealand especially because of this
01:04:10
rule of two verification pathway um that was passed actually last month. So, if the FDA suddenly approves a load of
01:04:18
peptides, um, and they're legal in in other countries, um, and some of them are legal in 35 countries already, then
01:04:26
there's going to be a case for fasttracking approval here, and hopefully moving a lot from the gray
01:04:31
market into regulated safe supply with clinical oversight, which is much more important.
01:04:36
>> Yeah. Um, >> yeah, there's that saying, the horse is bolted. Do you feel like that's the case
01:04:40
with peptides >> at the moment? Yes. Um I think we've got a lot to catch up on, but there's plenty
01:04:44
of things we can do to improve safety um and oversight, and that's training up doctors on it. Um getting more of them
01:04:51
approved if appropriate via um these new um uh these new legislation pathways. Um
01:04:59
and just bringing public education more and more to the forefront about not just
01:05:04
following someone who's actually trying to sell you something uh and will heavily skew their data because they're
01:05:08
making money from it. If people remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be?
01:05:14
>> I think curiosity is a wonderful thing. So, close-mindedness um either from doctors or patients is always uh
01:05:22
limiting. So, be open, be curious, read the literature, watch the space, um ask questions, uh don't dismiss things out
01:05:30
of hand, but also uh don't blindly go somewhere which is potentially not safe. So, I'm I'm in an open curious state at
01:05:37
the moment where I'm watching and waiting. Um, I think they're going to be a big deal.
01:05:42
>> Yeah, >> this has been so great. So, how can people get a hold of you? >> Uh, so I work at Autonomy. Um, that's
01:05:49
the clinic I founded in Ramiera. So, we're 139 Remier Road. You can um hit us on our website, which is autonomy.alth.
01:05:56
You can also follow us on Instagram. Um, and basically just put autonomy in your
01:06:02
Google bar and we should come up. >> And you guys specialize in longevity. Is that your I saw Patrick Gower uh do a
01:06:08
thing on his um Instagram. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um look, I'd say we're not a dedicated specific longevity clinic like
01:06:15
some of the ones you get overseas which are using a lot of peptides and and and um pretty out there stuff, but what we
01:06:21
focus on is health longevity via getting the basics right. So getting people's sleep, nutrition, their exercise, their
01:06:28
their stress control um all as optimized as possible and then reversing any, you
01:06:35
know, very obvious nutrient deficiencies. The amount of people I see with vitamin D deficiency, which is
01:06:39
actually a major issue for longevity. We correct all of that um and just teach people how to take really good care of
01:06:45
themselves, hence the the name autonomy. We want people to have the the knowledge, the skills, and the
01:06:50
experience to to do it themselves. But a lot of people come to us very confused.
01:06:54
They've tried lots of different things. Um they've they've basically been walking through a maze and coming up
01:06:59
against dead ends with their health. And so our aim is to create a lot of health
01:07:02
clarity and a clear road map for them. And then there's the element of behavioral change with health coaches
01:07:07
because doctors are very good at saying you should stop smoking and stop drinking and lose weight and exercise
01:07:12
more. But do patients do it? Most of the time they don't do it um because their environment hasn't changed. Their psyche
01:07:18
is set in a set identity. So, the health coaches are incredible and I would actually never work without them. I
01:07:24
think that's what sets us apart. We're um heavily invested in behavioral change as well as the the science.
01:07:31
>> Is there anything I haven't asked or anything that we haven't discussed that you feel we should have?
01:07:36
>> Um I think we've covered quite a bit. I think we probably need to do a top-up
01:07:42
conversation on on peptides that are that's more specific because a lot of people will ask about BPC 157 and
01:07:48
Tasmarellan and um Celank and Cax and things. So it might be good to delve into that so that people can learn more.
01:07:55
>> Um but otherwise uh no I think we've covered everything >> conversation for another day. Yeah. Will
01:08:02
you come back sometime? >> I will. Thank you. >> Yeah. This has been so great. Dr. Ula
01:08:06
Haywood uh from Autonomy. Thank you for coming on my podcast. >> Thank you for having me. It's been a
01:08:11
real pleasure.