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hey Runners only with dime Harley Runners only with dom Harvey and William B Evans can I call you William do I call
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you Billy do I call you Mouse where's Mouse from Mouse yeah yeah my father named me that when I was a little kid
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when I was probably three or four because I was the youngest of six boys and uh you know my father raised us I
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lost my mum when I was just an infant so uh he had a name for everyone and that's
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where I got the nickname of I love it well should we go with Billy today yeah Billy okay that's cool hey
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well thank you so much for joining me on my on my podcast Runners only with dom Harvey I really really appreciate it
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you're like the you're like Boston royalty no no I've been you know I've
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lived in Boston 64 years now and my whole family grew up here I raised my family here so Boston's a special City
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for me yeah and um I mean there's so much to unpack with you especially in light of this new um
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Netflix um doco series about the Boston bombing which you featured prominently and you
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actually you turned it on episode one you're the first face that you see um but first of all I want to focus on
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your running Journey a little bit so two days ago you ran the Boston Marathon uh
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2023 the 10th anniversary of the bombing how did you get on well it was a good race and I I was lucky I got to run with
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my two sons my two youngest sons ran that day and you know I wanted to run because it's been 10 years from that
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tragic day and to honor the victims and all the survivors and honestly to just you know make a statement that you know
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Boston has came together that day everyone was United it was bust and strong and you know I I you know I've
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been a big part running it's been a big part of my my whole life and I thought
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it was important that I'd be out there and I enjoyed the race very much you know obviously I've gotten a lot slower
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over the years but it was a great day The Spectators were great and you know it's a great day in the city of Boston
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how did you how did you feel like at the big beginning of the the run on Monday like were you nervous were you anxious
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like well um you know I've run 60 marathons yeah I always anxious I don't
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care how many you do you just hope to get over those Hills at 17 miles and you just don't know marathon's funny because
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you could feel great and then all of a sudden you know your body shuts down on you at whatever mileage so you know
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there's always a little anxiousness and anxiety when it starts no I mean I mean
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any sort of extra anxious anxiety or nerves I suppose and because of the significance of the date and the
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attention I think so yeah you know I you know I can't help think back 10 years
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ago when you know um no one ever thought anything like that would happen in in the city of Boston so you know
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marathon's uh 26.2 miles and you know anything can happen so I think you you're always anxious that there's some
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copycat out there or someone who wants to make a statement as we see all the time unfortunately in this world we got
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some violence in someone with a motive to make a statement so yeah I don't think you you ever can rest and think
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you're totally safe yeah so um what's your personal best you like a 2 2 51 yeah sure that's good yeah I did
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in Boston the very first race I ran was a 253 so I traditionally probably half of my mouth on to under three hours but
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obviously as you age I'm more now I'm out there more for pleasure and enjoy
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running with my sons and it's it's great and you know I was in policing now I'm
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still chief of police at Boston College for almost 43 years and people over the course of my career whether it was being
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the police commissioner of the city and dealing with Marathon bombing asked me how do you deal with the stress and I
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always said as long as I've got my running every morning at 4 45 there wasn't any anything I couldn't
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accomplish so money was a big part of my life and I like to say a big part of my
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success yeah do you think um I mean geez there's a lot to get into um with you I think if we pick away at
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some threads but um you know in terms of like mental health and PTSD and a whole lot of
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things like that do you think um you're running and being physically fed in the
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same strict routine you've got has definitely helped keep that stuff at Bay absolutely when I feel stressed out
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um even the weaker the marathon you know the bombs went off Monday I think by Thursday morning with President Obama
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and his wife Coming to Town I think I got out at 3am that morning just to get around because you know we had a long
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day ahead of us but that's the that's the way that's like a non-negotiable for
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you yeah yeah everywhere I go I don't care where I am if I don't get my money
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I'm not the same type of guy and you know when I had 2200 officers in Boston
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I always like to preach to them how important it is not only for you physically but more so mentally because
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in in the police profession we see people at the worst and sometimes we see events like the Boston Marathon where we
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see some terrible atrocities and uh you know it's it's tough to deal with and so
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I think pushing that mental health in the wellness with running was key and is key
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foreign how do you get through some of that stuff I had a guy on the podcast last
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year Joseph Sullivan who you wouldn't have heard of but he's um he's uh won
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the America's Cup for yorting he's a New Zealand gold medalist for um for rowing
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as well now he's a he's a firefighter and um he he said on the way from events
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there's a lot of black humor that goes on um with him and his colleagues do you
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find that it's the same with you yeah we do I mean you know I think cops sometimes
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um joke um sort of a crazy sense of humor that some people would think why would you do
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that but yeah it's an outlet for us and you know sometimes at a crime scene you
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might see the collapse chuckling a little bit because that's their way they deal with it it's not pretty to the to a
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camera or it's not pretty to people who might be watching but they see such tragic and horrible things in their life
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that you know not that they get cold to it but I think sometimes that's the way
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they cope by sometimes joking about it and thinking this isn't bothered me but
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I think deep down we're human of course it's going to bother us and you know I
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think after the Boston Marathon we learned how important it was to get our officers offline and getting them the
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mental health services they need yeah right so um so just on your running Journey
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for a bit where did it all start because it's it feels like it's a little now
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um you know like looking back as a 64 year old man it's been like a lifelong
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Obsession it has but you know I didn't really start it until I became a policeman I think I was probably like 26
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27 and one of my brothers um James and my brother Paul they had run the Boston Marathon and I had gone
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to watch them but I I remember always saying I I think those people are crazy who do that you know and I said who in
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their right mind would want to put themselves to that and I never thought I wanted to so I started out more doing
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like five mile races and 6.2 and uh then someone said to me oh you ought to try a
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marathon and I I sort of took the bait and I tried it and you know the very first one I went all out and you know
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trained hard and I got a 253 and I was like hey I can do this and I got the I got the bug and then it was became
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competitive against myself hey I can do better I can do better and uh I just really got into marathon after that did
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you for that um for those ones in the 250s did you have like a program and were you doing some speed work or was
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that just you just going to Hopkinton and well you know I wasn't big going a
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hop continuing and doing the route I just worked like up in Boston The Beacon Hills I do a lot of Hill work I do you
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know a regiment I'd probably um you know really push myself and you know and and
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it really came through and I surprised myself with the 253 I I think I was just hoping to do well you know I was running
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with the Boston police Runners Club we have our own honest Club in um I just you know I was on a strict
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regiment and banging out the mileage every week and almost running seven days a week for uh probably almost 25 years I
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mean seven days a week and I was able to accomplish that goal yeah oh good for you
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now let's um talk about your upbringing for a little bit um it's a crazy
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upbringing so you're one of um six six boys yeah yeah and and your mum passed
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away with cancer when you were punishingly young yeah yeah I know I don't have one memory of my mom and then
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you know my father was left with six boys and he did a super job raising him and then when I was nine my closest
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brother Joe he got struck by a vehicle Crossing the the roadway and he got killed and then my father you know who
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was bringing up six boys he passed away suddenly when I was 14. so um you know literally I've been on my
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own since I've been 14. I have I have four older brothers who looked out after
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me but they also had their lives to go on and so uh you know I was very fortunate that a local
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Catholic priests got me into a good school and I always joke and I say I didn't have the brains to get into that
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school we didn't have any money but he got me a scholarship into a good high
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school and I got a good education there which helped me get into a good college and go on the police department after
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that so you know but that always shaped who I was because I had a local priest give me an opportunity of a lifetime and
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when I became a police commissioner I always thought you know every young kid needs the opportunity I
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got and whether you know you're poor whether you're whatever you know we should be giving everyone
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this opportunity you know I doubt I've seen a lot of gun violence over my career and a lot of people say why do
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these kids have guns why do they shoot each other well a lot of these kids have nothing in the world and nothing to look
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forward to and and they need an opportunity like I got so it's always shaped my whole philosophy of what a
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community is and what help a lot of people need why didn't you go off the rails when you
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were 14 like you would have had you would have had you could have been an Angry Young Man like going through
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puberty you got a short change with your mom Short change with your dad as well you've been through a lot of yeah
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uh like why did you it seems like you took the you know there's like a fork in
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the road and you took a good path rather than a bad path why didn't you get the
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bad way well I think my father the way he brought us up to look out for each other and to look out for everyone you
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know he put us into Catholic school so I was brought up with the sort of Christian values of taking good care of
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each other and you know uh you know you know you know Commandments and everything else so I was pretty you know
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pretty regiment uh I like to say you know if I needed something I was more ocd-ish I'd go after it and so you know
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uh you know I had friends unfortunately who did go off the rails and you know got involved in drugs and you know I
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grew up in a community that a lot of people either good guys or bad guys I mean I grew up in South Boston where
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Whitey Bulger was I don't know if you've heard of Wadi Bulger but he was a big
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gangster in the city of Boston who you know killed almost 19 people and he sort of was the mob that was running my
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community and so a lot of guys did go into you know the more dark side as opposed to that so but I I
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owe a lot to my dad I think he brought us up right you know he had my brothers and what's funny now Dom is meeting my
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four the Brothers still live in South Boston and we still all look out for each other
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I suppose as you've got older as a as a man and a father yourself you realize
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holy dad went through all this like Dad was dealing with his own grief dad was dad was probably confused thinking
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what the am I going to do with all these boys that's a lot is he still alive oh no he's yeah yeah
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he died when he was 52 and uh you know I look back I have three children and I you know thank God I had a wife who
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brought those kids up great because of being a policeman I always had a you know working all the time but you know I
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don't know how my father would have did it and I know he died young but you know
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to raise five kids and lose one I can't imagine the stress that was on him so
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you know he died suddenly with his hat and but I can't help but think um how tough that was for him to lose
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his beautiful wife at age like 36 and be stuck with six boys all under the age of
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12. you can only imagine so what are you what are you what are your memories of your dad well you know it's been half a
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century for you now since you're awesome yeah my memories are he he tried to keep
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us all together he tried to preach uh to us to look out for one another and you know he just I was the baby so he took
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good care of me and you know he's he always told uh his older Sons that whatever happens take care of the mouth
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that was his nickname for me and you know and then my brother Paul became a policeman when he was alive my oldest
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brother was a policeman and he was so proud of Paul um you know that his son was a policeman
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all three of my brothers went off to the Vietnam War he was so proud of them to go off and fight for the country he's
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one of the biggest advocates for defending this country so he was part of his boys yeah so do you so do you think
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from your perspective either um deliberately or sublimentally you you became a cop because you knew it was
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going to be something that would make you dead proud yeah I think so he really in growing up in the city that's what we
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wanted to be either policemen firemen our work for the city or the post office we didn't have goals you know to be
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attorneys or doctors you know as it turns out my middle two two of my middle Brothers became Boston firemen and so we
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had two policemen two firemen and one of my brother Tom worked for the public utilities for the the light company so
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we were just a working class family who went into professions that working class
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families went into and my father was very proud to sort of push this in that direction
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of Public Service can you imagine how proud to be of you being the commissioner the top dog and
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just the way that you've you handled some of the things that have been thrown
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you away well anything Dom is my oldest brother Paul was the police commissioner
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too for 10 years so um we had two police Commissioners in my family which is probably the only family
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of a major city police department to have that accomplishing actually my two brothers one was a deputy chief on the
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Boston fire and one was a district Chief so we went on to be pretty successful in
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our professions As Leaders of each department so when I look back at my career and my brothers I just wish my
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father was around to see half of what he was because he would have been proud of
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us yeah so what is um what does commissioner mean exactly you're just the boss of all the all the police
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regions of Boston yeah yeah I mean in Boston we have 11 priests 11 precincts across the city we have approximately 2
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200 police officers in uniform but we also have 800 civilians who work behind the scenes to get you know the job done
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as far as human resources the paychecks the you know fixing the vehicles there's
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a whole support staff so literally I was overseeing the public safety of the city
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but also the 3 000 people who were making that happen I'm just quite an undertaking it's a big it's a big job
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you're spinning a lot of plates yeah it was but you know I always look back and
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you know it wasn't anything that I really strove to be um a police commission I love being in
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uniform and I was in uniform for almost 33 years I never wanted to be a detective and not even wanted to work
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playing clothes I loved going to calls I like being in the visible presence of a
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policeman and so I was proud of the job and then you know I dealt with some difficult tasks that's just the occupied
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movement in the city of Boston and then obviously the marathon and then after that my commissioner left shortly after
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it Ed Davis and Maya Menino who was the mayor at the time of the crisis appointed me acting Police Commissioner
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and then the new mayor mayor Walsh made me the permanent police commission wow what a journey yeah yeah I used to see
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the toe it took on my brother Paul and I say who in their right mind wanted that
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would take that job but one thing leads to another yeah I fell into it yeah yeah
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you know I was overwhelmed at first but you know you grow into the road don't
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you yeah well the hardest part and I joke a lot is you know all I had was blue outfits police uniforms for 34
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years so I think I owned one suit and one tie so I had to go out and buy a whole wardrobe so I looked good every
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day and you know I I ended up having like 15 suits and 100 ties and and uh so the hottest part was finding an outfit
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every day when all I had a worry was but was put on the same outfit for almost 33
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34 years yeah in a way I suppose it's kind of like um yeah there's some some
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big Minds that come to mind like Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook and Steve Jobs from Apple and they were the same they
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they had almost like a uniform yeah they wore the same same thing every day because it just took one decision out of
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each day for them yeah yeah maybe it was the same for you um tell us about um Terry your wife Terry yeah you're still
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married it seems like you're very happily married yeah yeah we'll be married almost 35 years in another month
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you know she grew up in the city and she's a rising deal part of the city um you know she very sharp girl
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obviously I always joke and well I shouldn't joke she's a lot smarter than
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I am she was Boston Latin girl you know went on to Simmons College she has her Masters in English as a second language
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and you know I had to work a lot of days a lot of nights and she basically was the one home raising the children and he
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sort of gave up her career because she worked for the Federal Reserve Bank right near Publications this and that
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and raised our three children and a lot of nights I would come home from a rough
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night and I'd be out of gas and she'd be sitting at kitchen table you know
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quiz in the kids on their homework and and so you know she's a strong woman and
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you know a lot of My Success to her because uh she basically helped raise a beautiful family for me and all my three
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children doing well but I owe that completely to her and I'm a lucky guy with a good woman
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I feel like um I feel like you would have been quite um conscious or uh I I don't know what I'm trying to say I
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I'm guessing like after a hard night shift or after I had that at the office
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you're not the sort of guy that's going to come home and disengage and just sit
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down with a beer and ignore your family I feel like you would have been quite quite good at sort of managing and you
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know wearing the different hats the cop hat the family the dad hat the husband hat I am but my wife see the problem
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with me and my wife jokes with me all the time is I didn't have any females in
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my life you know my mum guy was an infant and my father raised us we had six boys and so you know she always used
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to say be careful what you say your daughter because I you know I I you know it it was different like guys we were
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guys you know no one ever put the toilet seat down there was no need to yeah no one had
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clothes on and so you know the whole environment was such different growing up in an all-boys family with no Mom so
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you know I had to get lectured on on how to bring up a daughter and you know a lot of issues around a young female
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growing up so you know my wife was thank God able to handle a lot of that yeah and so you've got three kids two sons
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one daughter um they're all grown up now in the in their 20s and you you're about
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to become grandparents for the first time yeah my daughter in fact she initially the game plan for this year's
00:21:04
Marathon that all three of my children were going to run the race wow and they were all signed up but then about two
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months ago my daughter asked us over for dinner and she got married in August and
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now she's expecting you know I guess so needless to say she stopped training
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because of the safety of the of a newborn and uh you know so two of my boys ran so but me and my wife were
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excited to be grandparents and it'll be a new chapter in our life taking care
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and helping out her as she starts her new life and so we sort of joke with her saying she looks like you know she's
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going to have a girl we know and I said well payback's a see how you like raising a girl now you
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know what I mean yeah it's an exciting new chapter of your life I guess isn't
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it and you seem you seem like really carving that piece now and just ready for this chapter yeah I am I am it'll be
00:22:06
fun and you know my wife teaches still at Catholic School in South Boston two blocks from my house and you know I'm
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always hoping she'll you know relax a little and retire and maybe now is the
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time that we're having a grandchild and my wife can help raise the the baby how
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do you think you'll be different as a grandfather to how you were as a father
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were you quite a strict dad or well I think I was brought up very strictly yeah um I think I was pretty strict I mean
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not as strict as my father was I mean the old school you know if you messed up you get a kick in your legs yeah I was
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raised in a Catholic family as well and any of the uncles around us could give us a smack
00:22:44
[Laughter] I was tough on them you know especially you know I want them to be successful
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and but you know not not overly stringent at any means and they all grew up to be great kids you know I had one
00:23:02
daughter they all went through college I had one go to Harvard one go to Boston College and my other daughter went to uh
00:23:11
um you know Westfield State which was pretty good okay that's my mum hi mum this is Billy Evans how are you nice
00:23:20
to meet you guys you guys probably ran similar times what was what was your time I think I was like 4 55 too
00:23:27
right there oh good for you you're good oh God she's gonna be going the whole plane ride home
00:23:33
she's going to be going on about that he's in the 60s and I beat him too hard when you walk oh yeah yeah I
00:23:40
was hurting you know yeah I mean I've had some good races this one I was you
00:23:46
know I feel my hip I I was telling Dom I was in Toronto four years ago running and I tripped and I went down and I got
00:23:55
up and I I had hurt my hip and I walked five blocks back to the hotel and I called the state department who had
00:24:03
sponsored my trip and I said I wanted to get back home because I was hurt the hotel got me a wheelchair put me in
00:24:11
a cab and I hopped on the plane and I came right home and went right for Mass General here and I had a broken hip so
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they end up putting a rod in four screws in my hip three years ago and uh no but
00:24:23
I run probably three or four marathons on it and I feel good but yeah but I could feel my hip on on Monday just
00:24:32
because of the dampness and the it was oh is that right you feel it on cold days yeah it gets into your bones
00:24:39
yeah yeah yeah so I quickly I my two My Two children man and they did under four
00:24:46
or both of them so I was more happy for them than the fact I finished and it was
00:24:50
number 60 for me so let's congratulations yeah yeah do you have any aspirations to get to 100 or
00:24:58
anything no you know I wanted to get to 60. I hope I I bounced back from this one I'll keep going you know my sons are
00:25:05
going up to Maine in three weeks there's the Seacoast marathon and they're gonna
00:25:09
try to do that because they're all trained up now and they're young yeah
00:25:12
they can probably bounce back but uh you know I'm gonna go easy for a while with
00:25:18
the hope uh you know bouncing back I hope to do another couple anyway yeah fantastic yeah you've still got um Tokyo
00:25:26
and uh Berlin today yeah to get to six yeah how good okay so you become a cop you're a cop on the beat for many many
00:25:33
decades um I suppose there's there's a lot of things that you you saw and you did that
00:25:38
just sort of roll into one or blur into another day but there must be some more memorable or Unforgettable cases as well
00:25:44
well you know growing up here in the city you know unfortunately you know you don't deal with a lot of gun violence in
00:25:50
the neighborhoods and nothing bothering me more to see a lot of young kids dying
00:25:55
on the streets um you know and witnessing it basically that stuff always bothers me you know so
00:26:01
we've seen a lot of tragedies and I don't miss that stuff being out now at
00:26:06
Boston College but a lot of challenges we were fortunate in this city we've had
00:26:11
12 Sports championships over the last 20 years you know I was able to witness four Red Sox championships six Patriots
00:26:21
championships Bruins and Celtics and putting on those parades were always a challenge for me in those celebrations
00:26:27
but obviously I think the biggest challenge for me will always be the tragedy of the Boston Marathon bombing
00:26:35
back in 2013 yeah would you say that's the that's the event that sort of defined your whole
00:26:41
career yeah yeah I mean you know it's it's something that well we stick in all
00:26:48
our minds and I think uh yeah and most definitely that's that's that's the most
00:26:54
uh defining moment yeah yeah to think because you're a cop and a runner as well it just had like um a double whammy
00:27:02
sort of effect for you it did you know being a marathoner and having done the Blaster Marathon you know at that time
00:27:09
probably 20 times I I know what the running Community I know the members of the Boston Athletic associate they are
00:27:15
my pals Dave mcgilvary Josh nems Tom Grill Jack Fleming and so you know those all those meetings all that planning I
00:27:24
was deeply involved in and you know being a lifelong resident of the city when they blew up a marathon I took it
00:27:31
personal You Know Not only was I a marathoner I was that was my plan that that day you know I was in the
00:27:40
leadership position and so I felt an utmost responsibility to find out who did this and you know Maya Menino was
00:27:49
the mayor at the time um you know for him I wanted to get who did this and so that's what drove us
00:27:56
over those five days and you know and and you know at the end to be there and be right on the scene the first one on
00:28:04
the scene and to capture that and put this to a rest and closure it was very satisfying to me you mentioned just
00:28:12
before you're on the um the you know the leadership group so you felt a certain
00:28:15
level of responsibility was there like a and they shouldn't have been but was
00:28:18
there like an element of guilt or something that you should have done more or you you there could have been
00:28:22
somewhere you avoided this happening I I don't think so I don't think there's any
00:28:26
guilt I mean when you think of it 26.2 miles it's an open air event it's a
00:28:32
family day you know who could have anticipated oh precisely whatever happened you know
00:28:38
we were fortunate in the sense that the bombs went off when they did because if it went off closer to 12
00:28:47
o'clock that day the crowds were so much thicker I mean this was four hours and
00:28:52
48 minutes into the race and I looked back and the crowd had somewhat thinned out at that point and I always looked
00:28:59
back if they had done it earlier there would have been so much more tragedy and but I don't think anyone could have
00:29:07
foreseen the horror on that street that day and someone two individuals would be so evil
00:29:13
to pull out what they did and all I think about is them poor victims who lost their lives and so many people as
00:29:20
we've seen the other day who lost limbs and you know have to live with that pain
00:29:25
and suffering the rest of their life yeah so so run us through the uh the day for you so Marathon Monday Patriots Day
00:29:32
10 years ago 2013. so you go to the start line how are you feeling about the run first of all I feel like it's a day
00:29:38
of two halves for you isn't it yeah I mean it was a regular you know again probably my 20th Marathon I went up to
00:29:44
Hopkinton it was a beautiful day I remember hanging in the gymnasium up there and getting out and running you
00:29:50
know I felt great it was one of those races I think I I did a 334 that day at the marathon and uh I finished my wife
00:29:59
Terry and my son well who was 13 were at the finish line and you know being a superintendent my vehicle was like two
00:30:06
blocks away and so I rallied with them Academy in my car I rode them to my house and I went down to the local
00:30:14
Athletic Club which is about six blocks away from my house and was in a hot tub and we we sponsor all the clubs from
00:30:24
around the world who come to Boston and and we get them Transportation up but we
00:30:29
also use this health club all of us so I was in the hot tub talking to a bunch of
00:30:34
offices and we found lost stories about the marathon and uh and one of my detectives ran in and said hey boss two
00:30:41
bombs went off at the Finish Line I was like no way that couldn't happen here
00:30:46
that doesn't happen here in Boston I thought at first it was a Transformer maybe blew up yeah because that area
00:30:54
Copley Square had had a few electrical explosions over the last few years and but he said no that's what they're
00:31:02
telling me so I got out jumped in the shower get in my car got home had to run up three flights of stairs put on my
00:31:09
uniform and within 10 minutes I was back at the scene and to see you know the pain the suffering to see the you know
00:31:18
the barriers blown out the windows it was you know it was surreal to think that I had run down the street just a
00:31:26
little over an hour ago and to see the destruction it's something I always remember but at that point you know I
00:31:34
had to put my policeman hat on and go to work trying to secure that scene make sure the victims were all well taken
00:31:41
care and then direct operations to find out who was responsible for doing that yeah how do you and um a situation like
00:31:49
that keep cool and composed and not make any knee-jerk or silly decisions do you
00:31:56
know what I mean like you're surrounded by chaos and you don't know what's good
00:31:59
no one knows what's going on no I mean my Police Commissioner was there you know then other outside agencies the FBI
00:32:05
state police everyone started coming in to assist us but you know you had a lock
00:32:10
down the scene you had to sweep the whole area with bomb technicians but then we had to set up a command post up
00:32:17
in the Westin hotel close by here and go to work arranging uh you know to have security at the hospitals have security
00:32:26
all over them because we had some terrorists out running around and we didn't know what the next Target would
00:32:32
be yeah and this is a big focus on the um the Netflix Stocker series that we're
00:32:37
talking about just the hunt for um as they call them um black hat and white white hat so when when did it
00:32:44
become clear to you that this was um like a bombing thing and these were the two the two guys you were looking for I
00:32:49
think we knew it was a bombing thing that when we were on the scene because you know you could see parts of the
00:32:54
pressure cooker you could see the BBS you could see you know elements of it what was inside that pressure cooker so
00:33:01
we knew it was deliberate action um but we didn't know who it was until almost Wednesday of that week when after
00:33:09
we viewed videos along the Finish Line after we asked people to give us their phones you know we are able to limit it
00:33:19
down to those two individuals walking up I think it was Hereford Street by whiskeys which was the bar there and
00:33:27
we've seen them both walking with the backpacks and there they separate and we
00:33:32
follow them as they move down outside the Forum restaurant and uh you know I think I've seen that video a million
00:33:40
times where white hat literally drops that backpack at the feet of the Richards family yeah I still can't get
00:33:49
that thought out of my head that someone would place a bomb deliberately behind a
00:33:55
young family and deliberately walk away and blow that family up it's not like
00:34:00
you dropped the damn an hour early and whoever happens to be there be there but he knew what he was going to do there
00:34:07
and you know and then the other brother had just set off the bombs outside uh you know mouth on Sports and so you know
00:34:15
it that that's when we focused on white hat black hat it's unimaginable isn't it really just
00:34:22
like Drop it it feels very personal in a way like dropping that bag noting the people that are around you and noting
00:34:28
that they're going to be the victims yeah I mean it was beautiful young girl
00:34:31
young family you know with everything to live for and he decides to stand behind
00:34:37
that family and he stood there for a good five or ten minutes so he knew and and when everyone looks to the left with
00:34:44
the first bombs going off outside the forums set off by blackout he starts to move to the right and that's why we knew
00:34:52
this was our guy and he was probably only 10 yards away when that whole area blows up so you know tough to know that
00:35:02
he knew who he was going to hurt hmm how many how many people did you have going through footage like you said you
00:35:08
said you put the call out for footage and everyone's got a phone in their hand
00:35:12
and everyone's recording everything these days you must have had just thousands I don't know hundreds of
00:35:17
thousands of hours how big was the team we had FBI we had State Police forensics
00:35:23
we had Boston we I'm not sure the exact numbers but we had whatever it took to
00:35:29
to narrow down onto these two guys amazing amazing and then um um the city went into lockdown when the
00:35:39
whole world is familiar with lockdown now because seven years after that um the pandemic came along and so
00:35:43
everyone's but this was this was a weird this I can't imagine what it was like
00:35:48
being on the ground in Boston at that time it must have been a terrifying time for all the residents and right just a
00:35:52
bizarre time yeah it was Bazaar you know during the week you know President Obama
00:35:56
and his wife came to town on Thursday and then that night is when officer Sean Collier got shot at MIT and then they
00:36:04
were the the terrorists were on the run then and I think after that shootout in Watertown
00:36:12
we got information that they might be heading to New York and there was a lot of info out there so you know just to
00:36:19
make sure the city was safe and surrounding communities because it wasn't just Boston that was shut down
00:36:25
Watertown was a lot of the surrounding communities the government may have put the shutdown on them in place and for
00:36:31
the next probably you know 12 hours people didn't go out and it was an Airy time and you know I got to Watertown
00:36:40
around midnight after uh Sean Collier got killed and for the next 19 hours we were on the ground in Watertown
00:36:47
searching for that one who turned out to be white hat all day long you know black
00:36:53
hat was shot and killed in the shootout and then the brother was The Manhunt and you know I sort of
00:37:02
spearheaded that for the next you know um 19 hours and finally we were able to you know locate them in the boat again
00:37:12
yeah you were you were right there on the same so there was um it was almost like a like a wild west type shootout
00:37:17
and then you you called the you made the call to seize fire uh because you wanted
00:37:21
the white hat taken in alive rather than dead you look back there was that the right
00:37:27
decision yeah yeah if it was I think uh clearly you know we didn't know what the
00:37:33
motives were of these individuals I don't think we knew um how big of a terrorist cell it was so
00:37:39
you know if we had just killed him we would still never know who was behind this and the ability to take him alive
00:37:48
and to interrogate him and to find out his motives and to see if this was just sort of a lone wolf where the two
00:37:54
brothers I think turned out to be instrumental and but I didn't want him killed you know we had way too much
00:38:01
information together and uh as it turned out I thought it turned out well what are your thoughts on um right yeah yeah
00:38:10
what are your thoughts on the death penalty are you for it against it well growing up as a Catholic yeah I was
00:38:15
never fired because our religion is against it but I have mixed emotions on this one because I seen how treacherous
00:38:23
they were how evil they were and the fact that white hat deliberately stood behind that one family and did what he
00:38:30
did if there was a reason to have it this is the best reason to have it but you know morally I'm against it but I
00:38:38
think there has to be occasionally an exception to send out that we won't tell
00:38:44
we won't tolerate terrorism in such evil access these two brothers committed yeah
00:38:50
yeah yes I might say um black hat the brother that got shot and then run over got off lightly you know I think a a bit
00:38:58
of punishment is to sit in a Cell for a number of years to think about what you've done and then yeah face your own
00:39:03
demise right right and you know again two evil persons who brought terrorism to Boston and I'm just was happy as a as
00:39:11
a marathon and as a resident of the city and as a policeman to be instrumental in
00:39:18
in capturing them and I remember one of my good friends Callum line who was a deputy on our job he said it's almost
00:39:24
like the marathon Gods wanted you at the final scene to get the person who was responsible yeah on the final scene
00:39:31
being let the boat and Watertown yeah literally was the first one on the boat yeah yeah so we'll just rewind a little
00:39:37
bit so the um the Obama visits visit so Obama was President at the time and he came when the when the you know the
00:39:43
search was still underway was that it like from your perspective was that annoying at the time well it was like a
00:39:48
distraction it was just because we were so tired yeah we were flat out and normally putting on a presidential visit
00:39:54
by itself is quite an undertaking but to put it on in the middle of a terrorist uh on the loose in your city it was that
00:40:04
much more draining you know and then him and his wife went to five different hospitals working with the Secret
00:40:09
Service it was just probably one place long time but do I miss it turned out he gave a great speech a uniting speech
00:40:20
that really rallied the city so I looked at it as a drain on our resources but it
00:40:26
was very instrumental in bringing the city together and hailing the city yeah so the so that that week I'm just
00:40:35
trying to put myself in your shoes like how much sleep are you getting were you sleeping at all no I bet I'm lucky I got
00:40:41
10 hours a week and you know with my adrenaline was pumping you know I'd go home when I ran the race
00:40:49
um you know I was up probably at four on Monday first time I went to bed was 10 o'clock
00:40:56
on Tuesday night so I think I was awake for probably 36 straight hours and then every night after that was three or four
00:41:03
hours because we were all running on fumes just thinking I had just run 26.2 miles and I didn't go to bed for
00:41:11
almost 36 hours but to tell you the truth I didn't feel my legs I was just running on pure adrenaline yeah so so
00:41:19
Watertown where the um where the the shootout happened uh with the boat um where is you have to excuse my
00:41:25
geography where's Watertown from where we are now in Central Boston well Watertown about Boston up by Newton so
00:41:32
if you picture where Heartbreak Hill is it's probably only a couple miles from
00:41:36
there okay so it's not far off the route but I don't know Watertown yeah because
00:41:41
you know I grew up as a city kid I didn't Venture far out so when I got word that they were chasing in Watertown
00:41:47
and there was the shootout I had no clue where I was going out there and even when I was Incident Commander I was in
00:41:54
an area I was very unfamiliar with with the streets and where I was but I was able to take
00:42:02
control and run that whole final scene so yeah so because the search had been done around Watertown did someone
00:42:10
up did someone not look in the boat that should have looked on the boat I think anyone ever looked in the boat I don't
00:42:14
know if that was off the grid but you know all of a sudden I got word from a Watertown cop that they had word that
00:42:22
someone was in the boat and we quietly went up and I walked down the alley and I seen someone poking at the heat seal
00:42:31
or the wrap at the boat so I was on first one literally on that boat with two of my offices and uh we were able to
00:42:38
uh you know work with the FBI hostage recovery team we threw flash bangs in the boat we flew smoke grenades and
00:42:46
finally we were able to negotiate with them when we got him out and so was a successful conclusion yeah how does it
00:42:52
how does that negotiation look well I think it just said you know you know they were dealing with them come on come
00:42:59
on and uh you know whatever the the FBI said to him it was just a matter of him coming out
00:43:12
and I remember them getting them out and wearing them by me you know he was wounded shot in the neck and all bloody
00:43:19
and you know I remember saying to the FBI hostage recovery is that our guy and they said yep 100 that's a guy it was
00:43:28
the most uh you know successful conclusion that we could have had and you know but it was the conclusion of
00:43:35
105 hour ordeal for all of us and I was just glad it was over how many bullets were fired into that into that boat it's
00:43:43
probably lucky that he got away with his life in a way yeah it was I mean I was screaming for everyone to stop sharing
00:43:49
probably they you know when people estimated maybe as many as 200 but but we're able to get them out and bring it
00:43:56
to a successful conclusion and I was never so relieved in all my life when they wheeled them by me and we got
00:44:03
finally got the two people respond has been just a huge sense of relief and then did you go and see him in hospital
00:44:10
well it's funny you know I went up to watch the Red Sox game where you know Big Papi addressed the crowd and then I
00:44:18
went by the Beth Israel Hospital where he was just to make sure it was very secure there and I went up outside his
00:44:25
room and there were several policemen outside the door and they said to me boss do you want to take go in and see
00:44:31
him and take a look at him I said I don't ever want to see that guy again I says you know I was disgusted with what
00:44:38
he did I had seen him come out I seen him at the boat but I didn't I had such
00:44:44
disgust that I didn't want to open that hospital room and take a peek at him
00:44:48
because you know I had no respect for the guy I'm not going to honor him by thinking he's a role model or something
00:44:55
and I said to my office I don't ever want to see him again no I don't need to
00:44:59
see him so I did go by the hospital but I'll be damned if I'm I'm gonna take
00:45:04
pecan Yeah Yeah you mentioned yeah you swung by the hospital after being at um Fenway Park for a Red Sox game is that
00:45:11
where you got acknowledged on the on the field yeah everybody did yeah Big Papi said you know they blew up our effing
00:45:18
City and and uh it was quite emotional for me when they played God Bless America and
00:45:24
um you know they had a collage up on the big screen of of uh the city and what it
00:45:29
went through and I remember tears almost coming to my eyes because it was such an
00:45:34
emotional five days it's just unimaginable yeah and then um how do you how do you de-stress after
00:45:42
that uh like what what happened what what what what are the you know the days the
00:45:47
weeks the months after that look like well it was tough you know you know my wife was on me about the mental health
00:45:52
training you know I end up speaking to a fellow at Harvard who specialized in dealing with aftermaths of terrorism and
00:46:00
sort of you know uh sort of um like mental health and you know I told them what I went through and after
00:46:08
going through the whole idea he I said to him um doctor what's your advice he says
00:46:14
just keep running just keep running that's your medicine and so and my wife I think when I told her that said you're
00:46:21
kidding me I feel like you must be paraphrased you don't need to be told to keep on it
00:46:30
but that like I said earlier here that's my medicine that's the way I deal with
00:46:34
stress and I continue to run and that's why at age 64 almost 65 I hope I run
00:46:41
until I'm 9 hopefully yeah yeah you're doing you're doing great so so no no
00:46:46
real therapy or counseling or anything to speak of no no just didn't feel like
00:46:51
you need it what do you have like a like a resilience plan or is it just running
00:46:56
yeah I suppose like discipline as well I suppose that comes into it like your 4 30 starts that you've done for years and
00:47:01
years and years yeah yeah it's discipline it's being out there and you know I think when we're your Runners at
00:47:07
the end of the day when you put your head on the pillow usually you don't have a problem sleeping because you're
00:47:12
putting out a long day you know you know as a police commissioner I was running on two or three hours of sleep most
00:47:17
nights so you know I built up a good tolerance to not getting a lot of sleep and as as marathoners when something
00:47:25
tragic like the Boston happens I think being in that type of shape helped Carry Me Through those five days
00:47:32
but I just can't imagine what this um compounded stress over all these years
00:47:37
has done for your cortisol levels or you know your heart rate and things like that and so your blood pressure you're
00:47:44
in good shape you get a medical and oh yeah yeah you know I see a cardiologist I keep on top but you know I remember
00:47:50
the week after I had to go to the dentist because my teeth were killing me after the balmy and I went in and he
00:47:57
said nothing wrong with your teeth he's like you're just grinding your teeth
00:48:00
after the week you had and so I remember going to the dentist and that's that's
00:48:05
how bad I I must have been under stress you know I had to go to the dentist because my I was just grinding my teeth
00:48:12
so but I you know I I try to medically I knew this stressful job I was in I I always made sure I I got as I do now
00:48:22
regular checkups even before running this Marathon you know I I got a good double check up I might call it
00:48:28
cardiologist just to make sure I'm okay to go over those the Heartbreak Hills of
00:48:33
Boston and what about what about nightmares and stuff when you when you shut your eyes at night and you go to
00:48:39
sleep yeah any bad dreams about the things you've seen and well I I you know
00:48:44
I think once in a while you know whether it's the young kids getting shots on the
00:48:48
streets of Boston or going to a tough car accident where you see some terrible things I've seen you know children
00:48:56
burned up in fires I've seen a lot of tragic things and you know I think again
00:49:01
running's the key to my success so you know I've talked to counselors over the
00:49:05
years um you know I don't think anyone should be afraid to seek Mental Health Training
00:49:11
and it's beneficial to me yeah and you know every study you hear everything you
00:49:16
read sometimes say aerobic exercises is great for mental health and I think that's why we all get
00:49:24
addicted to running physically and it feels good mentally yeah it clears your mind it's it's funny
00:49:30
because it feels like everyone's known about the physical health benefits of
00:49:33
running but it feels like it's only a recent thing like last 10 or 20 years that you know you realize uh just the
00:49:38
the goodness it brings from the neck out it's incredible hey I mentioned on um my
00:49:43
Instagram page to my mostly New Zealand um fans that I'm meeting with you today
00:49:48
I've got a bunch of questions from them to put to you um how has this case affected your
00:49:52
perspective on life society and humans as a whole well I think it hasn't really you know I think most
00:50:00
if not all people have Good Will in their heart and we all look out for each other but unfortunately
00:50:07
um you know there's people out there who sometimes get radicalized who will act
00:50:11
out like these two brothers did I think the problem in a lot of our world is you
00:50:17
know mental health is a big issue you know I think you see here especially in America way too many violent incidents
00:50:24
with guns and and so you know 99.99 people are good but unfortunately you have some people who are evil and I
00:50:35
think we've seen it in this case yeah yeah what are your thoughts on gun violence in America it's tough you know
00:50:41
as police commission Boston I was dealing with it and you know we have major cities who you know have kids
00:50:48
young kids getting killed in the streets every day and it breaks my heart to see
00:50:53
it and I wish we we could do more not to take away people's second Amendment
00:50:58
rights but to be stricter and have Universal gun laws so we can keep guns out of young kids hands who
00:51:05
who take you know take each other's lives a senseless time yeah because we're the situation I don't you may have
00:51:13
heard about that so maybe on your radar there there was a like a mosque shooting
00:51:16
in New Zealand a few years ago on March 15 and um just a again like a lone wolf gunman
00:51:22
went into these mosques and shot 50 Muslims dead and our government immediately implemented this gun by
00:51:27
backscape um but the issue is it hasn't really worked because what you've got is good
00:51:32
people who are legally entitled to have these guns um doing the right thing and then bad
00:51:37
guys with guns they're not doing the right thing yeah so it's a tough one
00:51:41
isn't it but you know I'm a big Advocate the less guns we have overall in society the better because
00:51:47
what we find in America is 65 percent of the gun Dancer by Suicide really and so having a gun around the
00:51:54
house sometimes gets into the wrong hands or someone who's having a mental health crisis has access to a gun and
00:52:01
they committed so you know if that guy wasn't in the house a young kid might
00:52:05
not have picked it up or young you know so I I'm I'm a big Advocate the less
00:52:10
guns uh um in a gun by back yeah a lot of people say it's a gimmick but if you can get a
00:52:18
gun out of a house that doesn't get into hands of a young child it's a good thing
00:52:22
okay that's an interesting interesting to speak of and good way of looking at
00:52:25
it um someone asked the question in hindsight would you do anything differently I suppose this pertains to the bombing
00:52:30
not really I mean obviously we wish we uh could have prevented it yeah but we didn't have information enough to do
00:52:39
that uh I think the response was unbelievable I think you know uh within 20 minutes uh 270 people were taken from
00:52:48
the scene and everybody taken from the scene survived so the response the training the preparation was good no one
00:52:56
could ever foreseen what could have happened and I think the response was was a good response you know yeah being
00:53:03
at the final boat scene you know I wish obviously we lost a little control with so many officers responding to the scene
00:53:11
I think we could have did a better job there but I was just happy have to after five
00:53:18
grueling days that we were able to get the two people responsible yeah not good stuff and the uh someone asked the 2014
00:53:25
marathon one year anniversary how on age were you so you didn't run that yet no because I
00:53:35
became Police Commissioner it was my responsibility to make sure that race was safe and I in my right mind couldn't
00:53:42
be out enjoying the day when I was so concerned about the security and safety of the residents of the city so I
00:53:50
remember walking the route the last two miles up and down up and down making sure everything was locked
00:53:57
down and I'll always remember Meb kablesky when he ran by me I was at Beacon and Park Drive and it gave
00:54:06
everyone Goosebumps because an American was going to win the race the year after
00:54:11
the bomb and you talk about Good Karma it really Boston Strong for an American to win it a year that set the tone and
00:54:20
everybody was thrilled with the way the day went and and and talk about Karma the same year the Red Sox went on to
00:54:28
will the will so Boston came together all as far as an American win in the race the Red Sox you know put on a new
00:54:37
and that you know a more secure Marathon but it was it was a stressful day for me
00:54:43
yeah no doubt as as Boston Strong always been like a Boston slogan or is that something that was created here right
00:54:50
you know I think the way the city rallied around the victims the way the city rallied around law enforcement the
00:54:56
way everyone came together that model came about in you know when I was running the other day with a mile to go
00:55:05
under painted on a an underpass year round is Boston Strong and it just brought back a lot of good memories for
00:55:12
me when I had a mile to go and sort of pushed me that last tough mile believe it or not and you know even when I was
00:55:18
running this day and my legs were hurting I was thinking of the victims and the pain and the suffering they went
00:55:26
through and I'm like this is nothing compared to what they did and it brought
00:55:29
me through those last couple of grueling miles yeah someone asked on Instagram um in regards to Black at white hat um
00:55:38
is there an update on the rest of the family you know I don't care I'm down with them
00:55:43
yeah it's tough though in a situation like that that wasn't like imagine how
00:55:47
embarrassing it is someone in your your own family does something as heinous as there it's awful
00:55:53
someone that could be that evil um any ideas about what we can do to stop someone turning into a criminal
00:56:02
ah darling I think there's you know but again unfortunately people have mental
00:56:15
health crisis that you know uh you know they act out in these cases they were radicalized by their religion and so I
00:56:23
think the key thing we really preach here if someone knows about someone who might be involved in criminal activity
00:56:30
or terrorism you know if you see something say something that's the big model here you know we're finding more
00:56:36
and more that there's usually some early warning red flags that could have prevented these these
00:56:44
events whether it's an active shooter event or whatnot so you know if you're a
00:56:47
mother your dad or if you're anybody who sees someone who has a mindset that is
00:56:53
going to do something terrible all we ask is they call and let us get them the help they need yeah absolutely
00:57:01
um someone asked the question what did police learn from the Reddit stuff during The Manhunt they touch upon this
00:57:06
in the um the Netflix documentary I think it's just about people doing almost like like jigsaw journalism
00:57:12
basically like trying to piece together what happened on the yeah I mean I don't
00:57:16
give that a lot you know they gotta leave us leave the drive to us there's too many Monday morning quarterbacking
00:57:23
as we call it yeah right right everyone wants to be a criminal uh analyst and you know leave it to the trained people
00:57:31
yeah um someone wants to know there's in New Zealand at the moment there's um a huge
00:57:36
problem with youth crime in particular Spate of ram raids so you get these kids they steal a car crash it into a shop
00:57:42
and go nuts um what would your solution be for that let me again I think it it's basically
00:57:50
you know you got to call these kids in and and and try to talk to them about you know
00:57:56
the disorder they're cause and then maybe even talk to the parents and get the parents in the community involved
00:58:02
because it shouldn't be a police issue I've found everyone always relies on the
00:58:06
police to solve it but it's more of a a public health issue that the community
00:58:11
has to come together and stop it be you know whether it's their parents getting
00:58:15
involved in their lives and giving them opportunities but you know it shouldn't
00:58:19
be just the police dealing with these kids it should be a community issue and it should be the parents yeah oh that's
00:58:25
a great answer um one thing we see um reported a lot when it comes to American cops in new zealanders um
00:58:31
racism and there's the George Floyd thing a few years ago what are your thoughts on that racism
00:58:36
Well I obviously I think policing has a history of racism in their past and you know I think George Floyd and a lot of
00:58:44
events here in America brought that uh to light and I think you know American policing is changing a lot of the
00:58:51
tactics you know a lot of policing are going unconscious bias training fearing and partial policing and you know we
00:58:58
learned a valuable lesson that you know police officers have biases out there and we need to correct them and we
00:59:04
should be fair and impartial no matter what color religion Creed whatever you are and so
00:59:10
um you know terrible time in policing over the last couple years and I think police
00:59:17
started to train better and and realize the mistakes of the past there and someone wants to know about
00:59:24
the movie uh Patriots Day which is um The Mark Wahlberg movie about the Boston bombing who played you by the way were
00:59:30
you in the were you cast of the movie at all yeah I was someone James Corby who was a local Hollywood actor who grew up
00:59:37
in the city played me uh James he was a good guy unfortunately he passed away about a year or two ago suddenly but
00:59:45
um you know you're happy with him is the casting are you shooting for Brad Pitt
00:59:48
well I was short for Alice he wasn't available so we end up going with James and that thank you by the way
00:59:57
can you imagine Arnold tried to do a Boston exit but you know Mark Wahlberg it was neat working with him with guys
01:00:03
and working with Peter Berg who was the director but you know again it all comes
01:00:09
down to remembering the victims you know as I look over this and sort of um to sort of wrap up a little bit uh I
01:00:17
think we can never forget what this was all about it was about tragedy that happened on that day it's about
01:00:23
remembering you know the the four victims who lost their lives to these terrorists and and more importantly
01:00:29
Boston coming together to address uh what was a horrible event on the streets of our city and so I always say there
01:00:37
was no Heroes here it was everyone pulling together when the city was down and out to raise it up to you know put
01:00:45
Boston on the map as Boston Strong that's a nice conclusion um yeah just a couple of final ones
01:00:52
about the uh the Netflix thing though yeah so you've seen the three it's only
01:00:55
come out a few days ago but um you've seen the three episodes you're mostly
01:00:58
happy with it anything that you said that was um admitted that your wish was in there no
01:01:04
I think they did a good job portraying you know you know it's again it was very
01:01:13
emotional for me to watch those three days and um you know I watched it with my son and my wife who are very
01:01:20
emotional over it and you know you know it was a sad day in Boston and it brought back a lot of poor memories for
01:01:27
me and and uh you know but I I thought it was you know they had a lot of video that I had never seen a lot of things I
01:01:36
hadn't known about and so a lot of it was eye-opening for me too but I thought
01:01:42
from what I've seen and you know it was a realistic uh sort of snapshot of what
01:01:48
happened yeah and you I mean it's only been a few days since it's been up now
01:01:52
no doubt it's going to be a hugely popular documentary that's consumed all
01:01:55
over the world um you haven't noticed a difference like your inbox hasn't been I mean you've got
01:02:00
a podcast request from New Zealand yeah yeah well a lot of people have been texting me and uh you know uh email me
01:02:08
just saying hey um you know we appreciate all you did and you know you were great in it you
01:02:14
know you came across as genuine and you know more uh emotional and but it was emotional time for me and as I look back
01:02:23
when they did that interview was it's something I'll never ever get over it's
01:02:27
you know and I don't think the city will ever get over it so uh yeah some people
01:02:32
have have said some complimentary things but again it's not about me it's about
01:02:38
those victims that day and those who still live with those injuries all right hey oh Billy Evans AKA Mass aka William
01:02:47
former police commissioner of Boston and uh one of the central figures in the whole uh Boston bombing aftermath thank
01:02:54
you so much for coming on my podcast today I really appreciate it well thanks for having me I hope you had a good time
01:02:58
in Boston and uh you know you come back soon [Music] thank you