00:00:00
I felt like the blood had drained out of my body. I knew my 30s were gone. >> You were um an anthropology student and
00:00:07
you went from that to dealer in a alarmingly short period of time. >> I don't want to be it.
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>> What about heroin? >> It's such a lovely drug. >> Terry Clark, who's um probably better
00:00:15
known as Mr. Asia. >> He would kill you. >> What are those first few days like after
00:00:18
losing your freedom? >> I was only 23. >> Did you ever ever contemplate taking
00:00:22
your own life at that point? >> I I can't handle anymore. I'll never
00:00:24
forgive you. I've got an honest heart. >> Oh, good. You here? Come on. This is the
00:00:30
center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all
00:00:33
comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's
00:00:38
the boys who got the hole in one in it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
00:00:45
>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
00:00:49
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate.
00:00:55
>> Putting performance first. >> Reed Newol. Welcome to my podcast. >> Oh, thanks. Good to be here.
00:01:00
>> Yeah, it's great to have you here. U just just a second ago, you were um
00:01:04
asking me what a podcast is. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm low tech. I don't I
00:01:08
haven't even got a cell phone, you know. >> Yeah. Do you not? >> How do you how do you get by without a
00:01:12
cell phone? >> I got a landline. >> Right. You still got a landline?
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>> I got a landline and I got email. >> What about when you go out of town?
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>> Write letters. >> What about if you want to get a hold of someone now?
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>> Wow. I don't. >> Oh, good on you. >> I know. My wife's got a cell phone, so I
00:01:32
rely on her. But cuz when when you go away a lot, you know, nowadays, you need you've got to have a thing like an app
00:01:39
and you got to, you know, you got to do a screen uh what do they call them? Those round things with the squares on.
00:01:46
You got to go flick on them. And I can't do it. So, I have to get her to do it.
00:01:51
Even if I'm going to send something to the United States, like I send a copy of
00:01:56
my book to some people I know in the US. Um nowadays you have to do the QR code it's called. You click
00:02:05
the QR code, put in the data, get a a um a barcode, put take the barcode into post shop. Well, I can't do that cuz I
00:02:16
haven't got a cell phone. >> I'm going to be >> I mean that means I can't I'm isolated.
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>> Yeah. And I'm becoming increasingly isolated because when you go on a say on
00:02:24
a cruise on a ship cruise, all the purchases have to be done with your QR code. >> Why don't you just get a bloody phone?
00:02:32
>> I don't like that. >> I'm going to be the I It's like I'm
00:02:37
staring at my future self. I'm I'm 53. When I'm 74, I'm going to be exactly the
00:02:41
same as you. I feel like I'm getting left behind with some tech stuff now. >> Anyway, it's great to have you here. Um
00:02:47
yeah, brand new book out, Dream Dealer. Um, how do you feel about it? >> I I like the book. I had a hell of a lot
00:02:54
of fun writing it. When I first got retired, um, you know, a few people were asking me to write my memoirs, you know,
00:03:03
and I just couldn't face it because I'd been sitting in front of a computer
00:03:08
plunking away for the last 30 years, you know, and I'd retired and I was that was
00:03:15
all finished for me, you know, but now it's um four years later and no, six years, no, five years later, I decided,
00:03:22
oh, I could do that, you know, And so I started remembering everything and uh just like I did when I wrote the big
00:03:30
Huey which was my first book. >> Your prison diaries in the early 80s. >> Yeah. Yeah. In the early 80s.
00:03:35
>> So um yeah. So right like from the perspective now of a of a pensioner uh
00:03:40
writing about your five years incarcerated from like 1975 to 1980. uh a lot of that time at maximum security
00:03:47
pero. Is it is it do you look back now like from the perspective of where you are with like rose tinted glasses or is
00:03:52
it still like a a triggering and jarring thing to write about? >> Um well jail in those days was a lot easier than
00:04:02
it is now. You know jail they they actually cared about us. that the prison administration cared about us and they
00:04:10
cared about us in Wellington and we had pretty good conditions because it was right at the end of that liberal period
00:04:17
which started in the 1960s with the Hannon Robson era and then continued through until about the end of the 70s
00:04:26
when the gangs started coming in and taking over the jails and all the camaraderie of the prisons was lost. um
00:04:35
all the all the solidarity that inmates had, especially at perimeal was lost because the gang ethic took over and it
00:04:43
became that you you became a gang member first and a and an inmate second. Whereas when I was in jail, you were an
00:04:50
inmate first and and gang member was your gang membership was irrelevant. And there weren't a lot of gangsters in jail
00:04:57
either in those days. We stuck together. And when the when the inmates came into
00:05:02
Pereimal, they were told by the old hands, you're not a you're not a gang member
00:05:08
anymore. >> We're all the same. We're inmates. >> Yeah. We're all inmates because once you
00:05:15
break up that solidarity, you lose your strength. >> And we had a lot of a lot of community
00:05:21
strength and community spirit, particularly in maximum security. That made it a good a a good environment to
00:05:28
do time in because people cared about each other >> and they cared about the colle cared
00:05:33
about the collective about our collective interests, you know. >> Yeah. You talk about this in the book
00:05:38
and just the gang culture of the 1970s um where it was just sort of like um based on American gangs like Hell's
00:05:44
Angels and what was the other one? >> Hell's Angels, Black Pow Hunters, Mongle
00:05:50
Mob. They were all They were all there. Particularly in the when I in the lower security, they weren't prominent in in
00:05:58
high security. The only real gangs in high security were the head hunters and um and the um Hell's Angels cuz a whole
00:06:08
bunch of them came in for the killing of Bradley Hora. >> And so there was a group of of angels in
00:06:14
there, but they didn't flout their membership. They were me inmates like the rest of us.
00:06:21
This is going to be a great podcast. I I can tell just from this um this opening
00:06:24
five minutes um because there's two very distinct chapters to your life. There's
00:06:28
the um the the the drug dealer and then the incarceration period. Yeah. >> And then there's the the the huge period
00:06:34
of like 30 years where you were working at the University of Canterbury and you were like the go-to criminologist. Every
00:06:39
time you turn on the TV and there's a story about crime, you'd see your face
00:06:42
on TV. So, this is going to be good. Um the the by line for your book is called From Prisoner to Professor.
00:06:49
If you were at a um prisoner and professor party, which of those two groups would you gravitate towards?
00:06:54
>> H I depends on what the party was, but and whether I knew them, but I I get on
00:07:01
pretty well with ordinary guys from the from the butabouts, you know, I get on well with
00:07:09
knockabouts. Um >> people that have got some scars on their backs. >> Yeah. Yeah. But but but at the same time
00:07:15
you know when I was at at um uh at Canterbury University I very very close to a lot of people particularly in the
00:07:24
engineering in the engineering faculty and also um a mate of mine called Robin Bond who came from classics and I got I
00:07:33
had some really good times with them and and Peter Goff from engineering and Cynthia Halls from law and Andy Buchanan
00:07:41
from engineering you know though ordinary people that I don't get on well >> with academics and people who identify
00:07:50
as academics or as scholars but you know when when you're in those kinds of circles that sort of people who like
00:07:58
having parties like having fun and also in the tango community which I joined I love the tango community and a lot of
00:08:05
them came from the a lot of the tango community were educated people and they came from areas like um medicine, art,
00:08:18
>> a lot of artists, poets, and those kind of gone real well with the tango
00:08:22
community. So, I wouldn't say I prefer one group over another really. I I just
00:08:27
get on with a I've got a a variety of friends from different walks of life and
00:08:35
and I get on with all of them. I mean, I've got a lot of friends in the in the
00:08:40
hunting community, you know, hunting and fishing and diving sort of thing. >> Look at you go. Hunter by day, tango by
00:08:46
night. >> The the last um paragraph of the book um yeah, I've um I've gone through the
00:08:53
book. Um I'm not giving away any spoilers, but the last paragraph, which I really like, um I've had a wonderful
00:08:59
life at 74. I don't think I've ever been more content. Lucy and I thrive in each
00:09:05
other's company. I love being alive and I'm not looking forward to dying. I'm
00:09:09
actually trying to put it off. It's a good line. For me, getting old is marvelous and retirement is everything
00:09:15
it's cracked up to be. I recommend both. Everyone lives a happy ending. It's it's
00:09:20
and it's great that you've got this peace and contentment at this stage of
00:09:23
life. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've got a I've had a really good life, an interesting
00:09:28
life, lot of variety. I've made lots of friends, got to know a hell of a lot of
00:09:33
nice people from all walks of life, you know, from all walks of life. Cuz I'm
00:09:36
still in contact with quite a few of the people who I was in prison with. And I'm
00:09:41
still very good friends with them. And I'm I'm friends with all sorts of
00:09:45
people. And uh um and that really enriches your life actually having having friends from a
00:09:54
with different perspectives on the world. than that >> this young version of you on the cover.
00:10:01
Um yeah, hands handsome young fella. >> Oh yeah. >> Um how how yeah >> that before I became ugly.
00:10:08
>> Well time remains undefeated. Right. Um how are you how are you the same as that
00:10:13
young man on the cover and and Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel the same when you look at that? Do you recognize it's you?
00:10:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My personality was always, you know, the basics of my
00:10:24
personality have always been u unchanged really. I've always been a I've always
00:10:31
considered myself to be a principled person. And people might say, "Oh, well
00:10:35
then how come you were selling heroin?" Well, I was in the heroin community and
00:10:39
I was a good dealer. I was I sold I was an honest heroin dealer. >> Yeah. You say that in the book. You
00:10:46
never used to cut it. No, I never would cut my gear and I always sell good gear to people.
00:10:52
>> I would give them a good deal, but I, you know, we were using the same I was
00:10:56
using smack and selling to the people who were selling to me. >> You know, I was only a small time
00:11:01
dealer. I was portrayed in the, you know, in the trial as a kingpin kingpin Mr. Big. But in actual fact, I wasn't.
00:11:10
It was just the way the police portrayed it, you know, because they wanted to get
00:11:14
a big sense and and they wanted to get um uh credit for having busted a bloody big heroin ring. In actual fact, I was
00:11:22
just a street. I was just a street I was a bloody minnow. >> Yeah, we we're going to um get into all
00:11:28
that. Yeah. 34 gram is what you were you caught with now. There's more of an
00:11:32
understanding on drugs now. And I I think they understand it's more of a health issue for an amount like that
00:11:36
which is um yeah, for supply. Yeah. You'd probably get home detention maybe,
00:11:40
wouldn't you? >> Yeah, pretty much. And and nowadays, you know, I said before the prisons are were
00:11:46
easier when I was in there, but the sentences were longer. >> Nowadays, the senses are a lot of them
00:11:52
are derisory, I think. You know, when you get people king hitting people and killing them, knocking people, punching
00:11:59
them without without their defenses and and the people getting knocked out like that that MMA fighter who got knocked
00:12:05
out, >> fell. Yeah. Well, we've redefined it. We call it a coward punch now.
00:12:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Coward punch. And Yeah. Boy, I tell you, and
00:12:15
the sentences people are getting for that are bloody ridiculously short in my view.
00:12:20
>> You know, it's only if it's got a sexual element. If there's a sexual element in
00:12:24
it, you're gone. >> Gone for a long time. But if there's no sexual element, you can kill a kid, beat
00:12:28
a bit of child to death. And and quite often the sentence they get is small >> compared to the the gravity of the
00:12:36
offense. >> Yeah. >> And the impact it has on the victim. >> The sentences are
00:12:43
they don't the sentences don't they don't fit the crime in my view. >> But but you know like prisons are much
00:12:50
harder though. M >> there's um I've got a whole section later on about your crim criminologist
00:12:56
career and just from that answer I think there's going to be a lot of hot takes
00:13:00
there your views about um crime and punishment in New Zealand at the moment. Um first of all can I say you're looking
00:13:05
really good. So you turned 75 in a couple of months. Um and you're super fit, right? What's your daily routine?
00:13:10
You run every day, you're on the bike every day. >> Um I I I have a six day routine and I do
00:13:16
two uh two 1500 me swims. uh two 40k uh bike rides or two-hour bike rides and uh
00:13:26
and two gym workouts, weight workouts, which is about, you know, I do about 50 minutes. Um uh and I do that every day
00:13:35
and I have one day off normally. >> Um and that day I might go I used to climb up Mount Monganoi, Mount Mo, but
00:13:43
now that's shut because of the landslide, so I don't do that anymore. But
00:13:48
>> yeah. Yeah, I keep uh keep pretty fit. >> And am I right in assuming that your
00:13:52
love of movement began in jail? You started long-distance running while you were incarcerated.
00:13:57
>> Um I actually before I went to jail, I was uh well, when I was a kid, you know,
00:14:06
I was a um organ judo champion. So, I did judo uh as a junior and uh and I won the under nin stone championship uh when
00:14:16
I was about 12 or 13 or something. And then when I was in jail, no sorry, when I was at university, I was uh exercising
00:14:26
fairly regularly, but not entering any races. But I was doing a bit of running and and then I then I was doing karate
00:14:35
for a u about four years. I got a first down with the Cheetah Khan Club. Um and um won the Oakland University
00:14:45
Championship, Sparring Championship and Carter. >> Um so I was always involved and then
00:14:52
when I went to jail in Mount Eden when I was in Ramand, I used to run uh run around the yard every day, which was I
00:15:01
was unusual and and that. So we're only out for two hours a day. Uh we're out
00:15:07
for 4 hours a day out of ourselves and I used to go for runs around the yard. >> How big was the yard?
00:15:13
>> Not very big. >> What do you reckon? Like 100 meters if you >> about 20 laps to the mile. I think it
00:15:18
was something like that. >> Yeah. >> Oh, good on you. Well, you're looking
00:15:21
you're looking great. I think that's the key. You you got to keep moving. Yeah.
00:15:26
Yeah. You can get old pretty quick if you don't. >> Well, let's um let's go all the way
00:15:30
back. So, um the Greg Newold story. Um alcoholic mom. Dad left when you were 11.
00:15:37
>> What impact did that have on you? Is that was it were you rebellious? Did you
00:15:40
have a rebellious streak before then or was that sort of um >> was that a turning point for you?
00:15:45
>> It pretty well I think I became more and more rebellious around the time my balls dropped around
00:15:55
the time I reached puberty. you know, I was actually a very very shy young boy and I I was I was nervous of other
00:16:05
people and so on until until my balls dropped. And then when I reached started reaching puberty, the testosterone, I
00:16:13
think, kicked in and and I become a lot more self-confident. And another thing that made me
00:16:19
self-confident was the judo >> when I found that I could, you know, I could win fights, you know, and I was
00:16:27
that gave me a lot of confidence because it's important to a young boy to be sort
00:16:31
of masculine and so on. And um and I was good at judo >> and so that that really kicked in around
00:16:39
the same time and I started becoming confident >> and in myself. >> Yeah. You just know that no one's going
00:16:46
to bully you. >> Yeah, you can still be bullied. I mean, it doesn't make you the God's gift of
00:16:50
fighting, but it gives you uh uh it gives you some confidence in yourself and ability to handle situations.
00:16:58
>> Do you remember your first introduction to drugs? >> Yeah. >> When when and where?
00:17:04
>> Um it was when I was in the fire service. Um, and oh no, I might have still been
00:17:12
at school. Uh, was sooner around that time. Anyway, we were because this is the hippie era. So, everyone was trying
00:17:20
to get hold of marijuana cuz this was the era. This is when the um the Hayashbury
00:17:27
uh scene was going on and and there was lots and lots of songs about, you know, let's go to San Francisco Flowers in
00:17:34
your hair. And we all knew they were all smoking dope. smoking dope was the cool thing to do
00:17:40
and and to have marijuana was uh was made you a cool guy. And so I really wanted to get hold of some h uh some uh
00:17:50
marijuana some some dope smoking dope >> and um and I managed to get some off off
00:17:55
the high revving tongues actually. >> Oh the band. Yeah, the band called the
00:17:59
High Reving Tongues and they had some marijuana and I was able to buy some off them.
00:18:03
>> And uh >> is it is it okay for you to be telling the story? Are you snitching?
00:18:10
>> They're not going to they're not going to send out. Well, that's where I got my first then I
00:18:17
went then we went to Australia, you know, after my first year at university. And um so it was what it would have been
00:18:25
when I was in the fire brigade. There was a guy called Mo at Rangatoto College who had access to marijuana, but no one
00:18:32
else could. You couldn't get it. You know, marijuana was real hard to get in
00:18:35
those days. >> Was it really? >> Oh, yeah. [ __ ] Yeah. So, >> I'm talking about 1969. It was It was
00:18:41
very hard to get in New Zealand then. >> Only a few people. You had to be on the
00:18:45
in crowd, you know. Tommy Adalie had some, you know, he was a uh he was a, you know, a singer and and the people in
00:18:52
the band scene could get it, but you had to be super cool, >> you know, to get that. Um, but then
00:19:00
>> uh so I started smoking dope. And then of course I ever since I was at at first
00:19:06
read about the dangers of drugs and how bad they were when I was at intermediate school, that made me want
00:19:14
something. I I thought, "Oh, that's for me." >> The propaganda didn't work.
00:19:18
>> No, no. We did had the opposite. I thought that if it's bad, I want I want
00:19:22
some. >> You probably got the you're probably at that age where you got the tail end of
00:19:25
that whole reef of madness era. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The where you take this and you turn into a
00:19:32
mad man. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Right. That was that myth was just being blown. It
00:19:38
had been blown by the um in the mid60s really. Um because LSD was still legal in in the United States too until about
00:19:48
1968 and 1967 it was summer of the summer of love. That's when that that was a whole
00:19:57
celebration of LSD just before it was about to come in >> uh as as an illegal substance.
00:20:05
>> Yeah. And so I wanted some acid as well. And I had my first trip um uh when I was at university, my first year
00:20:15
at university, California sunshine it was. And that was coming over from Augustus Stanley who was producing all
00:20:24
the acid for the hippies in the in California. And that was being imported to New Zealand as well, which was
00:20:31
written about by Tom Wolf and u in his book uh the electric Kool-Aid acid test. Um and that was about Stanley and his
00:20:41
drugs. >> And so everyone was using acid because it was the the mindexpanding drug. It
00:20:47
was an enlightening drug and it and and Timothy Larry of course he on the east coast and Ken Keezy on the west coast
00:20:55
were were big in promoting the acid acid culture and in order to be cool you had
00:21:04
to use acid and that got replaced soon after by the hard drugs in the hate ashbury era and also in New Zealand as
00:21:13
well. the the the punishments even for personal use back then were so steep that didn't put you off. That didn't
00:21:18
deter you at all. >> No, no, I didn't care. I didn't No one thinks they're going to get caught
00:21:22
anyway. And everyone was using it and you had to be cool and uh you could get lots of girlfriends.
00:21:28
>> And what about heroin? Uh when did a heroin um enter your life? And what what
00:21:33
did it bring to your life that was missing? >> Oh, nothing. Didn't miss it. Just added
00:21:38
something cuz it's such a lovely drug, you know. >> Is it? What's it like? Oh, it's
00:21:43
fantastic. >> I've um Yeah, I mean it's >> I mean it's good. I mean, anyone who's
00:21:47
had morphine in a hospital will have some idea, but they only give you really light doses in the hospitals, but um but
00:21:54
no, heroin's like morphine. Detal morphine in fact is what heroine is. It's a just a refined form of morphine,
00:22:01
which is refined and morphine is a refined form of opium. >> Uh which comes from and coding's another
00:22:09
>> refined form of opium. They all come from they're all opiates. They come from
00:22:13
the opiate from the u the opium poppy. But so heroin was yeah I wanted to try some smack u as as soon as I could and
00:22:23
uh it was only when I started selling marijuana that I managed to get into that scene because what happened was
00:22:31
that initially the heroin and the no not heroin the marijuana and the LSD was being used by the hippies. It was used
00:22:40
by the university sector and by the by that circle. The criminals were not involved in it at that stage. But once
00:22:50
the criminals started getting involved in it as inevitably they would um because you know I was selling marijuana
00:22:58
out at the um Westfield freezing works as well. That's where I started off my
00:23:03
dealing with with my mate Mary Chris. We were both working at the during the holiday was my holidays uh the
00:23:12
university holidays and I was selling well all the marries from from Hellabes and the Mary's at Westfield they all
00:23:19
wanted to try this new drug um marijuana and so that so that drug using thing spread from the middle class
00:23:29
intellectual um group into the working classes >> and and and also So the lump and
00:23:38
proletariat the criminal classes and they all started using as well and Terry Clark was part of that because he got
00:23:46
out of jail uh after serving his 5year sentence in I think it was 1974 something like that um and he started
00:23:53
selling marijuana and then start and importing marijuana from Thailand and then getting cheap heroin and importing
00:24:03
that in large amounts. But at that same time, a lot of the criminals were burgling chemist shops, which had really
00:24:13
low security in those days, and they were getting whole bags full of morphine, uh pharmaceutical cocaine, um
00:24:21
omnipon, um opioids, omnipom, um uh what are the other drugs? I can't remember some of them now, but they were
00:24:32
all painkillers. Oh, pifodine. >> They were using all that and so they started shooting up the hard drugs and
00:24:41
that and then that started creeping into the middle class guys as well. >> Did you did you start by um smoking it
00:24:48
off foil or did you start by injecting straight away? >> Heroine. >> Yeah.
00:24:53
>> My first taste was morphine intravenous. Yeah. >> Right. See that would I I think that
00:24:57
would put most people off. No one likes needles. >> Yeah. I I I I didn't mind them.
00:25:03
So, but you were like you were a smart you were a smart young man at the time like um you're obviously rebelling
00:25:08
against something but you were um an anthropology student um and you went from from that
00:25:13
to heroin dealer in a alarmingly short period of time like how does that transition happen? Does it creep up on
00:25:20
you or what? >> Well, I always like excitement and I've always been a risk taker.
00:25:23
>> You're just bored easily >> and I was getting bored. Yeah. I was g
00:25:27
you know the academic life was great and I and I was doing you know I did a paper
00:25:32
called the sociology of deviance and I thought yeah well I I don't want to just
00:25:36
study it I want to be it you know so I started going down to Queen Street to the Queen's Ferry where the crooks were
00:25:44
hanging out a lot of crims used to hang around knockabouts used to hang around the Queen's Ferry and the accidental
00:25:52
two pubs in Vulcan Lane and um and I met up with Mary Chris there. >> What nationality was he?
00:25:59
>> He married just making sure. >> Yeah, >> it's a great nickname.
00:26:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and and and there was a bloke called Twiggy and a bunch, you
00:26:14
know, he was a skinny junkie. Um and uh we I started dealing with well with Chris dealing marijuana Buddhist
00:26:25
sticks you know they were coming in there in bulk from Thailand and um you know 10 bucks for a stick and that that
00:26:33
stuff was so potent you know a match head just a match head would get you stoned. It was really good really good
00:26:39
gear. >> Oh yeah because 10 10 bucks back then was a lot of money. Um but but you buy
00:26:43
one of those sticks and it would last you like how many hits? >> Oh, >> like a week.
00:26:47
>> Oh yeah, it depends on how much you use. But >> but you know, you didn't need much. But
00:26:52
you could roll up what they call a very skinny joint called a racehorse and smoke it like that. But in jail
00:26:59
>> because we had to conserve it. We used to just make pipes out of a out of a
00:27:05
toilet roll and cut a little hole in it and then put a a um a foil um a foil top
00:27:14
of it with holes in it and just smoke like that like a bong and smoke it. And honestly, a little just a little match
00:27:22
head of that stuff could get you sky high >> was really good. You mentioned um a
00:27:28
couple of answers ago you mentioned um Terry Clark who's um probably better known as Mr. Asia. Yeah. Um maybe the
00:27:33
most infamous New Zealand drug de dealer of all time. Um >> yeah. What was he like? Would you would
00:27:39
you consider him a mate? >> Well, we were we were friendly and he liked me, you know.
00:27:44
>> Was he intimidating or >> No, not at all. He was only a little guy. They called him and when he was in
00:27:48
we taco they called him sinbad cuz he looked like sinbad the sailor and then his short name was sin. They called him
00:27:56
sin which he was sinful you know but um you know Terry was a um he was a cold calculating person but I got on well
00:28:06
with him but he you know I mean he would kill you but you know he would kill you
00:28:11
if you if you're not but if you crossed him. Yeah >> but he wasn't a big guy. Did he have big
00:28:16
aspirations at that time? >> Oh, big. Yeah. Yeah. He was even when he was in Mount Eden, well, that's where I
00:28:22
met him. You know, he knew of me because through Doug Wilson because that's who I
00:28:27
was getting my heroin off. It was number it was it was 90% pure heroin. Number four grade heroin, the top grade heroin,
00:28:35
pure white powder was very, very good heroin. You only need a only need a little like about the size of a match
00:28:42
head in a in a syringe. And uh that was the danger of it was easy to OD on. Um so that's why when I was selling I
00:28:51
always gave my customers a little free taste to show them how much they needed. Don't use anymore. You'll you'll go
00:28:57
over. But um but Terry Yeah. he was selling this very very good smack. And I got I was getting it through Doug Wilson
00:29:04
who was a law student at Oran University and um and he was working with Terry and
00:29:11
uh and he was a intelligent guy. He'd already done a a jail sentence for selling LSD prior to that, but he was
00:29:20
doing a law degree and and it was selling selling smack and it was through Doug that I that I got onto that really
00:29:28
good smack, you know. >> Did Did you ever watch the uh very popular Underbelly series?
00:29:34
>> I watched some of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. What did you make of that? The in
00:29:37
particular the one that's um based around Mr. Asia. >> Yeah. Oh, well, I only saw a couple of
00:29:42
episodes, so I didn't really form an opinion, >> right? >> You know, but I did see a couple of
00:29:46
them, but it wasn't something I wanted to I was that interested in really because I knew the real story, so didn't
00:29:52
really want to watch it for >> Oh, so it's a great work of fiction. >> Yeah. Um, you you still talk even I mean
00:29:59
it's been like 45 50 years, whatever it is, since you've last had heroin, you
00:30:03
still talk about it quite romantically, don't you? >> Well, I I did I mean I was using it. I
00:30:09
mean, well, it wasn't 50 years ago they first had a ping, you know. I mean, I I
00:30:14
used to use a bit of smack um now and then, you know, right through while I was using my my writing my PhD, I was
00:30:24
using hammer. Um and from time to time when I was lecturing, I used to have a ping as well, have a little blast for
00:30:33
for the whole time sake. And uh and also I tell you I I had I also when I was teaching criminology and I was giving
00:30:43
lectures on drug use and so on. I was uh making sure that I any new drug that was
00:30:49
around I got hold of it and used it you know. So I was using I used a bit of ecstasy. I used a bit of methamphetamine
00:30:55
and um all the drugs that were around. I would always make sure I had a go so that I knew what I was talking about,
00:31:04
you know. >> What did you like of of the more recent drugs like Yeah. >> Methamphetamine is pretty good.
00:31:10
>> Is it in what way? >> Oh, it's a great aphrodisiac. It's the
00:31:13
only reason I ever used to use it in fact was as an aphrodisiac because it it knocks you around a fair bit you know
00:31:20
but you can have a good night of sex on it and um and men and women it acts the same way so you know you can have a good
00:31:31
>> your poor wife she she must be like oh Greg's on the glass Barbie again. Oh,
00:31:35
no, no, no. I never do. Not since I got married or since I lo My wife is a total
00:31:41
tea totler. I mean, she would just freak out. She would have nothing to do with it, you know. No, no. I I stopped using
00:31:48
that >> probably about the time before about the time I met my wife actually.
00:31:56
>> What out of like um recreational drugs are incredibly popular now. Like you go
00:32:00
to a festival or something and there's very few people drinking alcohol. Um the
00:32:04
drugs. Yeah. What did you like? Like have you tried ketamine? >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:09
>> Ketamine ecstasy. >> Yeah, I've had ketamine ecstasy. >> I had ketamine when I broke my leg. They
00:32:14
the ambulance driver gave me a shot of introvenous ketamine but I tried it once before as a pill and it blew my bloody
00:32:24
brains out. I didn't actually like it much, but it was quite quite good when I
00:32:28
broke my hip cuz it it got the pain. It really it's really effective at reducing
00:32:34
severe pain >> and uh ecstasy MDMA. >> Yeah, that's a it's a really good drug.
00:32:40
MDMA I really like that drug. >> Um but you know I don't use any drugs
00:32:45
now but um I've grown out of it you know >> but MDMA you know ecstasies
00:32:51
well we used to say it should be it it should be compulsory. It makes you so happy.
00:32:58
>> Yeah. How can that be a bad thing? >> And it doesn't have really bad side
00:33:02
effects either. The next day you feel you feel a bit a little bit washed out cuz you your endorphins get used up. But
00:33:09
you it only lasts a day is not really you don't have a real bad hangover on on
00:33:14
ecstasy. It's a pretty good drug really. >> So chapter six of your book is called
00:33:19
Busted. Um I've got a line from that. In 1975 I was arrested and sent to jail.
00:33:25
That was my lucky break. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it really was. >> Well, because
00:33:32
I was using heroin more and more often. Heroin will grab you. >> You know, I'm not an addictive kind of a
00:33:38
person. It's very hard to get me addicted. But I could have got addicted to heroin because it's automatically
00:33:44
addictive. Whereas methamphetamine, MDMA, um, gambling, alcohol, they're not
00:33:50
automatically addictive, but cigarettes are, and so is heroin and morphine. They're automatically addictive.
00:33:57
physically addictive as opposed to being psychologically addictive. >> And um and you and I was going to get h
00:34:05
I was going to get hooked on heroin because I started using it by the time I got busted. I was using it five nights a
00:34:11
week, >> you know, I I was psychologically addicted to it and a physical addiction
00:34:17
would have would have followed because you get to the point it's like being in
00:34:21
love. It's very much the same feeling as being in love and that is you feel like
00:34:28
you can't be happy without it >> and uh and that's a bad way to feel. Um
00:34:35
and and and love is a form of addiction as well. You know where you become addicted to some woman.
00:34:41
>> How viv how vividly do you remember that bust? >> Oh pretty clearly.
00:34:45
You know that warm that warm glow that you get and especially if you mix it with a bit of cocaine which is called a
00:34:53
speedball. I mean that's just an amazing feeling cuz the speed ball gives you a
00:34:58
mighty rush you a mighty rush and followed by the mellow stone and the warm feeling like you've been bathed in
00:35:07
oil. You know it's a lovely feeling and that's what gets you. And uh you think
00:35:13
when you first use Mac, you know, oh that was pretty good. That was lovely. And then the more you use it, the more
00:35:21
you like it >> and the more you crave for that feeling. And after you first time you use it, you
00:35:27
think, "Oh, I can take it or leave it. What are they talking about?" You know,
00:35:30
right? But then you two or three. It's like it's like a woman, you know? You
00:35:35
you you go out with her and you, well, she's pretty nice. I quite like her. But
00:35:39
you can fall in love with her over a period of weeks and uh and heroin's a bit like that.
00:35:46
And um and so in the end you become addicted to it. And uh and that's the way that's where I was headed with the
00:35:53
with the heroin in the in 1975. And when I got busted that broke the broke the chain, you know.
00:36:01
>> Yeah. So you you got busted maybe a kilometer from here. Uh a place in Ponson.
00:36:06
>> Yeah. Leighton Street. >> Yeah. >> Six. Number six Leighton Street.
00:36:09
>> What what h what happened that day? >> Well, what had happened was that I had
00:36:15
been approached by a guy called Luxy Lee and another guy called Lee Cricket who's
00:36:19
now dead from an overdose. Um, and Lee was one of my customers and he came around to my place one day
00:36:28
with Luxie who I knew of by reputation but not I didn't know him as a p as a
00:36:34
personally and they said they wanted to can I get them an ounce of smack or might have been a couple of ounces they
00:36:42
and I uh I went round to um uh t to uh Doug's place cuz he was selling and I
00:36:50
said, you know, can you give me a can you get me an ounce? And uh and he said, "Yeah." So I I paid him a,000 bucks for
00:37:00
it. And um and I told Luxy and Lee that they could have it for 1,100. So And I didn't
00:37:09
normally deal in ounces, you know, I was only dealing 10 $30 caps. That's what I
00:37:14
was dealing with. So on this occasion, it was an exception. And um so they went away to do the deal and then came back
00:37:23
to me uh about two about an hour and a half later when I was starting to get nervous. And I said, "Have you have you
00:37:30
have you got the money?" And they said, "No, we haven't the deal hasn't been
00:37:35
done yet." And I said, "Well, where's the smack?" And he said, "Well, it's
00:37:39
round at Leighton Street at Getty's place." And I knew of Getty by reputation as well. He was a German guy.
00:37:46
and um and he was a junkie and I thought oh for [ __ ] you know bloody they were
00:37:53
using my my [ __ ] and I and Giddy will be hooking into it while you're there and
00:37:58
and I thought well I'm going to go round there and they they can either do the
00:38:02
deal or I'll take the smack away with me you know so I went round there with Luxy
00:38:07
and uh and the deal was going to be done it's just about going to be done on and
00:38:11
so and and Jetty by that time have taken over it and he was testing it, you know.
00:38:18
I thought, "Oh, yeah. >> Uh yeah." And uh so he was stoned and um
00:38:24
and then suddenly uh suddenly the bloody the doors all exploded and and the coppers came was running through the
00:38:32
place. They really they'd been st they had the place totally staked out. There
00:38:37
was coppers down the road pretending to paint houses. They were up ladders dressed in overalls pretending to paint
00:38:42
houses. There was a there was a van down the street with people under underneath
00:38:47
it trying to fix the engine and they were coppers as well. There were a whole bunch of coppers and there was a van
00:38:52
full of coppers. There was about oh must have been about 15 of them because they
00:38:57
thought it was a major bust. They thought I was a big dealer and so the pano who was the detective who' set the
00:39:05
whole thing up thought that he was going to be uh busting a Mr. Big of Aland. All
00:39:12
they got old. All they got was me. >> Well, what are those uh what are those
00:39:17
first few days like after losing your freedom? >> Oh, terrible. I felt, you know, my whole
00:39:22
life exploded, you know, or imploded. My whole life, you know, especially when when I got busted. Oh, and then of going
00:39:31
into Mount Eden prison, which is a, you know, an old Victorian jail first um was designed in the 1880s on the old
00:39:40
British jail system, the old prison, the old u um British model. And um yeah, like stepping back in time and going
00:39:52
into the mount with the echoing doors and the uh the smell of wax and disinfectant. That was a smell you got
00:40:01
inside there. Wax and disinfectant and it's you know the walls were made of stone and the floors were made of stone
00:40:07
and and uh >> miserable. >> Yeah. Oh yeah, it was real. A real, you know, I've been living in
00:40:18
Oakuckland all my life and I'd never know that there was they had this dungeon. You driven past Mount Eden, but
00:40:24
all you see is the walls and the ramparts, you know, but inside it's really was like an old dungeon. How
00:40:30
>> How long does it take to to um accept and adapt and, you know, just be like,
00:40:34
"Okay, this is my new normal." Um probably well you do it by stages it
00:40:45
doesn't sort of happen >> it just gradually grows on you I'd say by three after 3 years you're fully
00:40:54
prisonized you're fully fully institutionalized after 3 years but after 3 months you've pretty much come
00:41:04
to accept the routine and then you gradually slip into the uh existing way of thinking.
00:41:12
>> Um yes, that line I read before, I was arrested and sent to jail. That was my
00:41:15
lucky break. How how long did it take you to think it was a lucky break or I wasn't until I got out of
00:41:30
I wasn't very happy. I can tell you. >> No. No. Um and and you know when of
00:41:37
course on your when I was on I was on remanded in custody for 5 months. >> Um
00:41:42
until you tried and sentenced you still think >> there's a good chance I'm not going to
00:41:49
I'm going to get out because they didn't actually have a lot of evidence on me.
00:41:52
You know they didn't have a lot of evidence on me. >> I was convicted on that false evidence
00:41:58
by that phantom detective. You know, they got the detective who who lied through his teeth. That was what I was
00:42:05
convicted on. >> Yeah. >> What, as I say in the book, I don't particularly hold it against them.
00:42:12
I don't like coppers who lie. I mean, they're supposed to be upholding the
00:42:15
law. They're not allowed to break the law. You You're not allowed to break the
00:42:19
law to enforce the law, but that's what they did. Um, and and I think the judge
00:42:24
was pretty much in it as well, you I mean, they all they're all part of the whole
00:42:28
>> the whole charade. But um uh but I got I got comm and in the end I dropped my appeal because I was I was
00:42:40
just fed up with the being in limbo >> and so I and and I accepted that I was
00:42:46
going to do my lagging and get out and try and make the best of it. So that moment that you're standing in
00:42:53
in in court in the dock and you get sentenced to 7 and 1/2 years prison. >> Yeah.
00:42:59
>> Are your parents both there? Who who's there? >> Yeah, they were there.
00:43:02
>> [ __ ] What's that like? >> Well, getting sentenced wasn't so bad
00:43:05
cuz I knew how long I was going to get pretty much from what other other people have been getting. Um
00:43:12
um so I but the real bad moment was the conviction. they can guilty. When it's
00:43:18
guilty, >> I just felt like I felt like the blood had drained out of my body because there
00:43:25
was all hope gone. >> I knew then at that moment how long I was going to get.
00:43:31
>> I knew I was going to get 6 to 8 years and I got seven and a half. So I I knew
00:43:36
and I was only 23. I know just turned 24 by that stage. I knew my 30s were gone.
00:43:44
Um that's and you know when you're 24 30 seems old >> and so you think you're going to be in
00:43:50
you're in forever you can't see the end of it and um and mom mom mom and dad
00:43:59
were there and they said my face drained my face I went white and we daggered down the spiral staircase with the um
00:44:11
handcuffs on and down the stair is we went to the uh holding room to go back to prison
00:44:18
>> and that's when you realize this is real. It's really going to happen and
00:44:23
and you're going to have to make some adjustments >> that that ride in the van like do you do
00:44:28
you do you cry? How are you feeling? >> No, I didn't cry. >> No.
00:44:31
>> No. But you do feel like pretty stink, you know? You feel pretty just wiped out, you know.
00:44:41
>> This is it. This is real. How was how was your mental health? Did you ever
00:44:44
contemplate taking your own life at that point? >> No, I wasn't. It was the the time when I
00:44:49
when I when I came closest to being broken was when I was in class in classification at perimeal prison. That
00:44:58
was the we went out to Perry the next day. Um and the environment in class was so bad. There was so much tension in
00:45:08
that in that cell block. Um, and we were locked up 23. You see the when I was on
00:45:14
remand, I was locked up 20 hours a day. In class, you're locked up 20 hours a
00:45:18
day. And when you're out, there's so much tension. There's young young
00:45:26
no hope, young buggers, um, trying to young ball busters trying to make names from them and standing over people and
00:45:34
there was always that tension and that really got to my head. It really gets to your head when you got nothing to do but
00:45:41
think >> and and listen to people being abused and stood over and and being bullied
00:45:48
around and it didn't happen to me but you know just it was just a horrible horrible horrible environment and uh it
00:45:57
was then that I I felt I was going to lose the plot and I was going to break that's when I went to the chief officer
00:46:05
to John Jackson oh Sid Ward I think it was he was the deputy superintendent. Yeah, I was I went to Sid Ward and that
00:46:12
both him John Jackson who was the chief chief officer. No, he was the first officer and um and deputy superintendent
00:46:20
um Sid Ward, they knew exactly what I was talking about, >> you know, I mean, they really were
00:46:25
experienced prison officers and Hob and uh Sid Ward said to me, "Right," and I
00:46:32
told him exactly what was happening in my brain. He said, "All right," he said,
00:46:36
"I'll I'll send you over. you could go over to a block tomorrow. Just like
00:46:40
that. Just like that. And you know when he said I could get I said he said where
00:46:46
do you want to? I said I want to go anywhere. I want to get out of class. You know put me in the pound. Put me in
00:46:51
solitary. I I can't handle anymore. So they put me over and and suddenly it all disappeared. You know all the
00:47:00
stress everything just disappeared in an in an instant. >> Wow. you know, and I went over to Ablock
00:47:07
and Pete Atinson, my mate, who's still my very good mate, um, met me. He came
00:47:14
over to me and said, "You, you know, where are you from?" And he gave me that
00:47:18
name, Dream Dealer, >> and, uh, >> what did that mean? >> Dream dealer uh, selling powdered
00:47:25
dreams. >> You know, morphine. Morpheus is morphine comes from the god of Morpheus, the god,
00:47:32
the Greek god of dreams. and uh heroin is refined morphine. >> That's why he called me the powdered
00:47:40
dream dealer. >> Yeah, that's a great nickname. And you were still using in in jail. You tell a
00:47:44
story in there about there there's a a syringe um that was just kept in like a
00:47:48
a sports shoe that everyone used and everyone got hepatitis. >> The A block syringe.
00:47:53
>> That is disgusting. Everybody got hepatitis and we used to hide it down in the
00:48:00
workshops and it used to come up wrapped up in a piece of cloth hidden between the cheeks of Whoopy's assly
00:48:09
and we'd wash it out wash it out in cold water. Rinse it out in cold water in the
00:48:15
interest of hygiene. >> Surely no no high is worth like you're a smart guy. Surely there's some common
00:48:23
sense that kicks in and say, "Do do I want to do I want to get high? I like
00:48:27
the feeling of it, but I know that the syringe has been in Whoopy's ass."
00:48:33
Yeah. Oh boy. >> Unbelievable. >> You look at it, but you know, you're 24
00:48:39
and you you're just bored. You got time. >> You're bored. You're living for the
00:48:43
moment. And you're part of the scene that there was about six of us on the landing. It was 12 of us on the on the
00:48:49
landing and six of us we were users and and we all used to share that needle and
00:48:55
the bloody the need the needle itself was so big it used to get a hook on it you know and it would call a hook you
00:49:03
know because it's those syringes those needles are really fine and they're made
00:49:08
of really soft metal >> and you'd get a hook and you stick it in it pop bang and we pull it out and
00:49:15
there'd be a hunk of flesh stuck on end of it. Tiny. Bloody hell. >> You're lucky. This is just a few years
00:49:23
before the AIDS epidemic. >> We used to try and sharpen it up on a on a you know the striker of a matchbox.
00:49:30
Try and sharpen it up and get the root of that burr that little hook >> and then sh and then sharpen it. Oh god.
00:49:38
>> So when you're incarcerated, what does a good day look like and what does a bad
00:49:41
day look like? >> Oh bad days and good days are pretty much the same really. A bad day would be
00:49:47
if someone had if there'd been a fight in the block and there was tension and
00:49:51
the block was splitting um siding up with one or other of the combatants. That was a bad day when you got tension
00:50:01
in the block. >> You just feel it in the air. You feel it in the air and the everyone's tense and
00:50:07
everyone's looking at each other and wondering who's going to be next and you know how
00:50:14
are we going to what's what's going to happen and the uncertainty going on cuz
00:50:21
there's only 48 men in the block and you all know each other and >> and some of them are in from pretty
00:50:26
violent crimes and that's a you know you get that might last three or four days
00:50:30
and then someone will offer a a olive branch at someone else and >> and normally invite them in for a smoke,
00:50:41
you know, and smoke a joint together like a peace pipe and >> suddenly the tension goes away and
00:50:47
everyone's sort of laughing nervously and and uh things get back to normal >> and that's a good day in jail. Um when
00:50:57
there's no tension >> or when you got some dope and when you got some smacking. We I mean we had a
00:51:02
good week that you know when I got that I think it was probably just about an ounce of heroin into
00:51:11
>> Wow. >> Uh into uh how to that was a good week >> all of us all using for every night for
00:51:17
a week. >> That was that was a good that was a good week. >> Yeah. I think um it's fairly strict now
00:51:23
and quite hard to get any sort of contraband into the uh the prisons. How how was it done back then?
00:51:28
>> Much harder. Uh in those days we would um we would smuggle out a a half a cigar
00:51:35
tube. You know, cigars come in those aluminium tubes. >> We'd get hold one of them.
00:51:41
>> Um and maybe our visitor would bring in a cigar tube for us >> and uh and you'd stick it up your bum.
00:51:50
In fact, what they'd bring in, you'd get your visitor to bring to get a cigar
00:51:56
tube and put all the dope inside the cigar tube, but you could only f fit half of one up your rectum cuz a whole
00:52:03
cigar tube wouldn't fit all the way up the rectum until it cuz your rectum's
00:52:07
got a bend in it, you know. So, you'd get it to cut cut the cigar tube in half
00:52:12
and get the plastic cap in the end of it and then fill it up with um fill it up with marijuana or or
00:52:22
pithodine or palium or omnipom or whatever you know those opiates or LSD and then they'd hand it to you in the in
00:52:33
the visiting room and then you'd have a whole cut in the side of in the in the
00:52:39
crutch of your pants. We never wore underpants. And then you just slide it up your bum. You sit on the end. You had
00:52:46
to sit on the end of the of the chair and slip it up your rectum that way. You know when but you'd have your bum
00:52:55
already greased up. You'd have to be already greased up otherwise it wouldn't
00:52:58
go up. And one and one one one occasion I didn't have any Vaseline and so I used deep heat but that was a
00:53:13
mistake. Felt like I had a [ __ ] poker stuck up me bum. A red old poker. >> Oh my god. These stories are wild.
00:53:26
>> Yeah. Um you were quite a um so you were in he was in a different wing to you but Dean
00:53:34
Wickliffe who's um um maybe done more time than any other living New Zealander. Uh he was in Padma remember
00:53:41
at the same time as you in 1976 and he he's one of the few people that has escaped. What even though he was in a
00:53:47
different wing like what what happens when you're inside and something like that happens? Is it the is it the talk
00:53:52
of the whole building? Oh, I tell you what, it was funny. It was funny as hell. What happened was Dean was in DB
00:54:00
block in his first escape and he got over the wall and he was and he and he climbed the managed to climb up the
00:54:08
fence and over the fence. But what was funny about it was that the the siren went off. The siren went off and
00:54:17
everybody, all the screws ran down the corridor to the sallyport that leads to the end of
00:54:25
the jail, to the e exit of the jail. And as they all ran out, there was a screw um a a divisional officer called Foster
00:54:34
who was the DO of classification and Hanari Jews who was doing uh 12 years for rape. Uh, he was a real comedian, a
00:54:44
funny bastard. And Henry started running with the screws and he ran and he was and and the whole Foster standing
00:54:56
standing at the at the gate and he's going, "No, you don't. No, you don't.
00:55:01
No, you don't Jews. Oh, no you don't Jews." And and Henry's going ducking
00:55:07
either way like he's like he's on the football field trying to get around. And
00:55:10
it was just so funny. It was absolute hilarious. And uh and Henry was pretending he was trying to run out with
00:55:19
the screws. It was so funny. And old Foster, he was an old, you know, old Pommy guy. He was
00:55:27
Foster. He goes, "No, you don't, Jews. No, you don't. Oh, no. No, don't try
00:55:32
that one, Jews." You know, it was really funny. So, it seems like there's moments
00:55:37
like there's there's moments of um like just pure joy and amongst the bleakness.
00:55:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Henry was funny. >> Yeah. >> Henry was real funny.
00:55:47
>> And you did so much writing. Like you wrote thousands and thousands. You wrote
00:55:51
prison diaries and you wrote a thesis. You wrote thousands of pages while you're in there.
00:55:55
>> Yeah. >> I wrote about a thousand p about a thousand words a day in my diary. They
00:56:01
were full scap 100 leaf diaries and I'd fill them up every few months. Oh, I
00:56:08
ended up with a probably 20 I think 20 volumes. >> Yeah. >> So, it's so it's almost like there's two
00:56:16
there's two different versions of you. There's this this guy that's a like a
00:56:20
you know addicted to um the wild side, but then you've got this um I don't know
00:56:25
this sort of guide in you that like lets you know you need to do some something productive with your time.
00:56:29
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Hell yeah. Because when I first went to jail, you know, and I knew
00:56:35
going to get out with a B, I already had a BA, you know, but a BA is not worth anything.
00:56:41
>> Bugger all. >> Bugger all, you know, and I get out, I'm going to get out at the age of 30, which
00:56:46
I think is an old man in those days because what am I going to do? My life's
00:56:51
buggered. I'm finished. My whole life has ended, you know. So I thought, you
00:56:56
know, in in my first few weeks on remand, I started making plans. If I get convicted, what am I going to do? And so
00:57:04
as soon as I got convicted, I started thinking, right, I've got to try and do
00:57:09
an MA in jail. >> Um because I don't want to get out with just a BA. I've got to try and make
00:57:16
something of this bloody I knew I was going to do of the seven and a half, I knew I was going to do five. And because
00:57:23
in those days there was the parole system was different. You had to do 2/3 you see of your sentence. So 5 years is
00:57:31
2/3 of 7 and a half. I knew I was going to do five give or take a month or so. And um so I knew how long I was going to
00:57:38
do so I could plan out and which what you can't do now with the open parole system. You can't plan out how long
00:57:45
you're going to do cuz you don't know cuz you're going to come up for parole
00:57:48
after one/ird. But anyway, I knew I was going to do five. So, I planned out and managed to
00:57:54
get permission from Jack Hobson, who I'm eternally grateful for, you know, for for giving me
00:58:02
full-time studies and allowing to me to do something to make something of my life. And and if it hadn't been for Jack
00:58:09
Hobson, the superintendent of perimeal prison, a wonderful bloke, a terrific humanitarian, I would never have been
00:58:17
able to do what I did and I wouldn't have become a university professor. So I made those plans then. Uh so but I
00:58:26
I also like having a bit of fun. I compartmentalize my life. People, you know, all work and no play makes Greg a
00:58:33
dull boy. What what's it like being um articulate and intelligent in jail? Was it easier
00:58:41
or harder or and >> well that was interesting because when I first came in I was still in that
00:58:48
intellectual mode and when I started debating I started debating like an academic and
00:58:56
the guys the old hands there they said look you got to you you've got to come
00:59:02
down and start get rid of that way of and I used to write my letters like that too academically and like a bit pompous
00:59:11
or something. >> You're sort of an academic, you know, for I don't know the way they write and
00:59:17
talk and uh not pompous, but it's just the way they write and talk cuz that's
00:59:21
their culture. And so I had to start thinking like a ordinary person and writing like and it was Stan Rangy who
00:59:30
was a lifer up there who said look you know and and talk to me about you know and I watched how they debated you know
00:59:38
I thought yeah that's the right that's the way to do it and so I started
00:59:43
writing and thinking and as I'm talking now you know I was in that academic world
00:59:50
but I'm not like in that anymore I never have been since I got out. You know,
00:59:54
I've always been like I am now. >> And um and I started writing my letters. I started practicing my
01:00:04
writing by writing letters in a in a really basic way and uh and u practicing my writing skills that way and my and my
01:00:14
debating skills. So when you say what's it like being an acade what it was like
01:00:18
was that I was just an ordinary bloke in the jail and no different from anyone else but I was studying and they the
01:00:28
inmates liked it or you know respected it they they used to when I was studying it during the day they'd they'd turn
01:00:38
down their radios they you know oh and they'd bring me a cup of tea at Smokco
01:00:43
time knock on just on my door. Excuse me, Dream Dealer. Do you want a Would you like a cup of tea? Thanks, mate.
01:00:50
Yeah, sure. Yeah, mate. And they'd bring me in a cup of tea and u and they'd keep
01:00:55
their keep their radios down and all that, you know, so that I could study. They were fantastic. And the screws were
01:01:02
amazing as well. You know, the screws were the same. They knew I was studying and they and they just come and they'd
01:01:08
knock on my door when they wanted to do a cell search. Excuse me, new bolt. Uh, excreg
01:01:15
actually cuz we're all on firstname terms up there. Um, we were firstname terms with the screws and they and
01:01:22
they'd say, "Excuse me, Greg. Mind if we had have a look around?" I said, "Oh,
01:01:26
yeah, sure, mister. I'll just wait outside." And they'd, you know, look
01:01:29
around and lift my papers up because my cell was a mess. There was papers strewning all over the place because I
01:01:35
was writing my PhD, my MA. and and then they'd say, "Oh," or they'd sit down
01:01:41
there, they'd just read my play a playboy or something. You know, they were really good. They were fantastic
01:01:47
people. Those screws I got, you know, I it was a wonderful environment parame. So, there was a hell of a sense of
01:01:55
community um among the inmates and and the screws were always polite. It was always please
01:02:02
and thank you and we were pleased and thank you to the screws. It was great. We had tensions from time to time, but
01:02:08
for the most part, it was a really, really benign environment. >> Yeah, it was great. It was a good place
01:02:15
to live in and everybody love everybody. >> It was a new building at the time as
01:02:19
well, wasn't it? >> Pretty new. Yeah, it would been opened in 1969, so it only a few years old. And
01:02:24
it was it was the most modern when it was when it was built. It was the most most modern penal institution in the
01:02:31
world. It was most advanced, most secure. It was a really good good jail and and guys didn't want to leave. I
01:02:38
mean it's maximum security. They didn't want to go to lower security because
01:02:42
they wouldn't have such good conditions. The food was good. The food was really
01:02:46
good >> because the inmates were part of this whole ethic. You know, we've got to look
01:02:52
after each other. So the inmates would cook good food and the and the and the rations were good. We got it wasn't
01:03:00
later on they they they started cutting back on the food. They the quality of food in prison now is crap compared to
01:03:07
what it was in those days. We had really we used to get bacon and eggs twice a week for breakfast.
01:03:14
>> We got pudding pudding dessert every night. >> Every night. And and um Oh, the food was
01:03:21
was really good and perimeal and it was the best. And they used to bake their own bread. Stan Rangi was the baker and
01:03:27
uh he used to beautiful bread, fresh warm bread every day, fresh bread, because he'd be up at, you know, 2 or
01:03:36
3:00 in the morning cooking, making the bread for breakfast. >> Oh, yeah. Gee, the food was really good.
01:03:43
>> Wow. Yeah. You completed a thesis in there on the social organization of Puma
01:03:48
prison that earned you first class honors. What was the social organization of that prison 50 years ago?
01:03:54
The social organization of prison of that prison was unique in the in the annals of maxim. I never in all of the
01:04:03
readings that I did and I I read everything that was available about prison social organization when I wrote
01:04:10
that that MA was 450 pages long. It was massive for an MA. Massive. And um I never come across
01:04:21
another prison which was like permal. It was absolutely unique. Um and it was a jail where there was no hierarchy. No,
01:04:32
zero hierarchy. Some people had more prestige than others if they were good touch players or good crash players or
01:04:38
so on. But basically everyone was the same. Even the child molesters, even the child molesters had equal status to
01:04:47
everybody else in that jail. And that was part of the ethic of solidarity which the old inmates brought to the
01:04:53
prison. And um standing over standing over was just not permitted. There was one young fellow came in. He was a
01:05:01
rapist and he bashed up a guy called Tulsley who was this child molester. And um I can remember his name was Lance and
01:05:11
Lance had bashed up and slapped around Tulsley and you know what one of the old guys his name was John Aulio Smith he
01:05:19
was a tongen he came up and he said Lance he said don't you ever do that again he said if you ever touch that guy
01:05:28
again you are going to answer to me do you understand you leave him alone he's
01:05:33
no different from you you're a rapist you And that was it. And that was the way it was. You just didn't do it. You
01:05:43
didn't stand over people. >> All right. So, the mentality is like we're all crumbs.
01:05:48
>> We're all criminals. We're all equal and we're all living together,
01:05:51
>> you know, and uh if you were a KN, it was a bit different. >> You know, the KNS you couldn't knock.
01:05:58
Everyone like you had to stand together. There was on one occasion I remember we
01:06:05
were in a someone we got the dinner our dinner and someone said the meat's off
01:06:12
and I tasted it. There was nothing wrong with the meat. No, the meat's off. He
01:06:18
throws his food in the bin. All right, we'll throw our food in the bin. We s we're not moving. The meat's off.
01:06:28
We're throwing it Hobson goes, "All right, all right." And he cooked it. We all got a new meal.
01:06:37
Sausages. It was sausages. And then we' thrown our dessert out as well. We want
01:06:45
a new dessert. Hobson, you're not getting a dessert. All right. All right. Um, another high-profile
01:06:59
event >> and we all knew there was nothing wrong with the food, but we all had to stick
01:07:02
together, >> right? >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] Different different time, eh?
01:07:06
>> Um, Arthur Alan Thomas, a very very high-profile New Zealander. Um, wrongfully convicted of the the killing
01:07:13
of Harvey and Janette Crew. >> Harvey and Janette Crew. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you you were mates with him.
01:07:18
You your paths crossed. >> Yeah. in in a block. Um I was mainly I wasn't mates with Arthur, but we're all
01:07:27
it was only 48 of us in the block and he was Arthur was older than the rest of us, you know, he was in his 40s. Um so
01:07:34
he mixed with the older guys and we mixed with the younger guys and so on. So Arthur was a bit different, but he
01:07:40
was always always always uh working on his case. you know, he'd be out in the yard walking up and down
01:07:49
in his underwear, uh, shaking his head, thinking, "How did it happen? How did it
01:07:54
happen?" Um, it wasn't until we got to how to that Arthur and I became good
01:07:59
friends because we were both in the fencing gang together cuz he was a farmer and I was in the fencing gang and
01:08:05
me and Arthur got together and we started because the gangs only have eight men in them, you know,
01:08:11
>> and we were both long termers. And so, um, so we became friends there and we
01:08:16
used to have a lot of fun. Arthur had a good sense of humor, too. And uh we'd be
01:08:21
um uh making these ridiculous patents, fencing patents, um stupid ways of putting up fences. And we'd we'd think
01:08:29
it up at night and then come the next day to work and and we'd be laughing and
01:08:33
rolling about some stupid idea we had for putting up a fence. But um also of course Arthur was working on his case
01:08:40
and he was writing these letters to Moldun because David David Yellup had written the book Beyond a Reasonable
01:08:47
Doubt which cast serious doubt on the validity of the convictions of of Arthur Thomas because the the uh the cartridge
01:08:57
case >> which had had been pl which which is came from Arthur's gun which supposedly
01:09:04
used to kill the crew. news um was planted by the police and that was proven and so um David Yellop wrote this
01:09:15
wrote this book and um and uh suddenly uh suddenly the thing got momentum and and um Robert Maldun who was the prime
01:09:26
minister at the time was sympathetic to Arthur's cause and so Arthur used to
01:09:31
write these letters to Maldun but he couldn't write very well. Arthur was semi only semi literate, you know,
01:09:39
he could he he didn't use full stops. He didn't use capital letters. He was
01:09:43
really could hardly write. And so what used to happen was that I used to write the letters out in good English. He'd
01:09:51
give me the letters, I'd transcribe them into good English, and then he would
01:09:56
rewrite them in his own hand and post them off to the prime minister. And then the prime minister used to give them to
01:10:02
the news media and they used to quite often get read out. Parts of them would be read out at night on the 6:00 news.
01:10:08
>> Wow. >> And so yeah, Arthur and I became good friends and and later on when after he
01:10:14
got out I went round and stayed at his place on his farm. >> Uh and uh and
01:10:21
>> did he get compensation? >> Yes, he got a million. >> A million bucks. Yeah.
01:10:24
>> Yeah. Which is a lot of money in those days. A million dollars was enough to
01:10:28
buy the best farm >> in uh in the one of the best farms in the white cat. >> Yeah.
01:10:35
>> Jeez, I can't think of many things worse than being wrong wrongly committed,
01:10:38
especially of a heinous crime like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Especially and he served nine years before he was
01:10:45
pardoned. >> He was given a judicial pardon. and we were working together on the um fencing gang when he uh when
01:10:53
he was picked up uh and he'd been given the >> a a a pardon by the uh governor general
01:11:03
and he just disappeared by the time we got back. He was gone. >> He was gone.
01:11:08
>> So you did join a gang in jail. A fencing gang. >> Yeah. Fencing gang.
01:11:12
>> You're a gang member? >> Yeah. Yeah. And the forestry gang. I was
01:11:16
in all the gangs. I was a gang one [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> What were the what were the the five
01:11:21
years incarcerated? What were the biggest lessons about yourself, >> if anything?
01:11:27
>> Uh, I changed a lot. Did you? >> I changed a lot. I was a different
01:11:33
person when I got out to what I was when I went in because I I was fully criminalized. I was fully criminalized
01:11:40
when I got out. I was fully committed to the criminal ethic to the point that I hated cops.
01:11:47
>> I hated cops. I hated uniforms. I hated bus conductors. I hated anyone wearing a
01:11:53
uniform. It was it was sort of drilled into us in jail by the inmate social code that the worst filthiest thing you
01:12:01
could ever be called is to be called a policeman. That they were they were the scum of the earth,
01:12:07
>> you know. and um and I I had a real chip on my shoulder when I got out uh in that
01:12:13
sense. Uh but when I started writing my PhD, working on my PhD and I started interviewing prison officers
01:12:22
uh because I it was on the history of the maximum security prison. So I was interviewing prison officers that had
01:12:27
been prison officers in the 50s and 40s. It was from in the post-war period I focused on. Um I got to talk to a lot of
01:12:36
guys. I realize that, you know, you build up this image of this evil person. It's like you you'd be the same if you
01:12:44
were a terrorist. Really, I suppose the IRA had that mentality as well. You develop it and and copers have the same
01:12:51
mentality about criminals. You see, it's them and us. Um, and then I realized, well, you know,
01:12:57
they're just actually human beings like us and >> doing their job >> and they're doing their jobs and and and
01:13:02
and then I got to know quite a few cops through running marathons cuz there's
01:13:07
quite a few cops running marathons. I know they're not bad bloss, you know, and and and now, of course, I I get on
01:13:15
really well with the police and and um and you know, Greg O' Connor became a
01:13:20
friend of mine. He was the, you know, secretary of the police association. we became friends and so I changed as well
01:13:26
when I got out. But when I first got out, I was I was pretty bloody down a hole, you know.
01:13:33
>> I was really down a hole. >> Yeah. There's there's a saying that, you
01:13:37
know, most people are hard not to like up close. And I suppose that applies to everyone, police or other inmates or
01:13:42
whatever. You know, you get to know someone and you >> get to know someone. Yeah. I was really
01:13:45
quite sympathetic, you know, cuz I knew a lot of guys who' done some pretty horrible things you in
01:13:52
jail cuz, you know, max peral max security prison, you got the worst criminals in the country. And I I found
01:13:58
that some of them have been convicted of horrible crimes and and yet they were actually pretty nice people
01:14:06
>> on a personal basis. Yeah. So, and I became good friends with some of them.
01:14:11
And um I >> mean there's some bad people in there, but if you if you judge any any of us on
01:14:16
our worst day, like >> Yeah. Well, you're not going to like anyone. >> You can't be defined Yeah. you can't be
01:14:20
defined by the worst thing you ever did, you know. Um but uh at the same time what I found too is that when you're in
01:14:30
jail because it's a you're in a microscope and you're living in a you're
01:14:36
under a microscope. You're living in a microcosm and everybody knows that everyone else is watching
01:14:44
what you're doing. So people tend to be on their best behavior. They te even
01:14:50
people who are pretty psychologically messed up tend to be on their best behavior in jail and you get to see the
01:14:57
best side of them because we were living in this one this really benign community
01:15:02
where it was really important to be honest. It was really important to be generous. It was really important to be
01:15:10
fair and to be seen that way by the others because there's only 48 of you in
01:15:16
the block >> and your reputation is based on what everyone else is saying about you and so
01:15:23
everyone's trying to be well try to be liked. You don't want to be disliked in
01:15:28
that kind of an environment. Um, and but when I got out, I found that a lot of the guys weren't the same as
01:15:36
what they were when they were in prison. They when you've got anonymity, a weak character
01:15:45
>> and drugs and alcohol involved, suddenly they would revert back to what they were
01:15:50
before. >> So, it was quite quite a lesson actually. I learned a lot about human
01:15:57
nature actually when I was in jail. I learned a hell of a lot, you know. >> I suppose you have to become an expert
01:16:03
at reading people for survival. >> Yeah, you do. You really Yeah, you really do. You really become intimately
01:16:13
intimately um uh involved with other people's personalities, you know, >> and and there was a guy called Pie Wai
01:16:23
who'd done a bad thing. He'd he was a lifer and he would he would uh he he'd
01:16:29
escape from prison and killed two two old people while he was escaped killed two old people in New Plymouth and yet
01:16:37
and in jail he was a real nice guy he was disturbed really badly disturbed but he'd sit with me in my cell he'd come
01:16:45
into my cell and he just sit in my cell and then he'd start talking and then he'd stop talking
01:16:55
and he'd go off into the stream and then he'd start talking again. He might have stopped talking for a minute
01:17:03
and then he'd go back talking to what he was talking and he's talking about
01:17:06
really deep stuff. Really deep stuff that was going on in his head >> and uh and I I really like Pney. He was
01:17:16
he was a he was a nice bloke, but he did have some deep [ __ ] going on in his brain,
01:17:21
>> you know. But um yeah gee yeah some really interesting >> there was a guy called Dave Fari who was
01:17:31
a bully at Mount Eden bully and end up being sent up to permeable because he stabbed a bloke called Rand Randall in
01:17:38
the movie stabbed and ripped his guts open with a knife and uh from behind coming over the top and ripped them up
01:17:45
and uh and he came into perimeal and he started mouththing off and ba you know, just like he did. And you
01:17:54
know, the guy said the marish didn't like him, you know, cuz he was loud. Cuz the thing about
01:18:00
perime, you don't be loud. You and you don't look at other people either. You
01:18:05
don't stare at people or look at at them. And you don't look in people's
01:18:09
cells. You look at the ground all the time when you're walking around. Always
01:18:13
look at the ground. Um and uh and u and he was strutting about and I tell him what the marries hated him and um he was
01:18:25
a good athlete too this guy but um marries hated him and uh and he was mouththing off talking loud in the
01:18:31
visiting in the uh dining room and then and the mar was used to sit at one table
01:18:37
and he wasn't among them he was at another table in the dining room and then this little guy little tuh hoy
01:18:44
guy called Bobby Bobby Petty. And Bobby was much smaller than him, but he sat at
01:18:50
the Marish table and he said, he said, "Hey, [ __ ] up your wonk. [ __ ] up your
01:18:58
[ __ ] egg." You know, and Dave looked over and there's this little guy abusing
01:19:03
him, you know, and then he looked into all the marrow. She was just sitting there looking at him and he just shut up
01:19:10
>> and he sat down and he never talked loud again. Never talked loud again. And he
01:19:16
used to come up to me cuz they started thieving from his cell as well which was something you don't do in Primal Peter
01:19:23
you know being a Peter thief they call it you don't tea leaf from people's
01:19:27
cells but they used to thieve from his cell which is the greatest insult. M >> and he used to Dave used to come up cuz
01:19:34
he knew that no one would thieve off me and he used to leave his valuables in my
01:19:39
cell. Can you look after my stuff for me, mate? >> Yeah, sure. >> And and then he'd come up after work and
01:19:46
pick up his soap and his shampoo and stuff like that. shaving gear, toothbrush, and uh and and that, you
01:19:54
know, so and and you said to me, because he used to beat people up for fun on the
01:20:00
outside, >> on the outside, he used to pull up, him and his mate used to pull up against to
01:20:06
a car beside the lights and they'd get out and rob the guy. And and Dave said
01:20:12
to me, he used to bash up he he used to bash up the driver while the other guy did the thieving cuz he loved bashing
01:20:19
people up. >> And um and he used he come to me after the after this incident and he he sat
01:20:26
down with me and he said, "You know, I used to love violence." He he said, "But I don't like it
01:20:36
anymore." That's what he said because he suddenly found he was on the other side
01:20:40
of it. I don't like it anymore. >> Yeah. Develop some >> I don't think it's a go anymore. That's
01:20:46
what he said. >> And um what was the hardest part of rebuilding life with a serious
01:20:53
conviction? 5 years. Oh, first of all, what was the day like? Do you remember the day you got out? Are you counting
01:20:58
down the days to release? >> Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. The day I got out, man.
01:21:03
>> Is that a great day? >> Yeah. Yeah, it was a great day. All right. I um
01:21:10
I I said goodbye to all my friends in the jail. Um they called me over to the they unlocked me early cuz I had to
01:21:19
catch the 7:30 bus to Oakland and I got out in July. So it was winter time. Uh no, they I went up to work parole. You
01:21:26
see, work parole. That was my day out, my day of release really. When I went to work parole on Mount Eden uh Kariki
01:21:34
Avenue, there was a work parole hostel and um I just said goodbye to everyone, knocked on their cell doors and say
01:21:42
goodbye. It was dark and they called me over new bolded guard room and I went over to the guard room and uh and they
01:21:50
gave me my old kit and I got all my prison kit off and put on my old outdated clothes. All the fashions had
01:21:59
changed. I was wearing bell bottoms, platform shoes, wide lapel jacket, you know, except paisley shirt, you
01:22:08
know. >> Yeah. 1975 clothes, but it's 1980 by this point. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That didn't
01:22:13
change. >> Different decade. >> Yeah. Different. The clothes were all
01:22:15
different. And uh and got in my old gear and got on the bus. They drove me down to Tangi to get the 7:30 bus to
01:22:25
Oakuckland. >> It's a 4-hour trip. I arrived there at 11:30. got off and I ran up Queen Street. I ran
01:22:33
up Queen Street and uh and to my dad's place and he took me to the um up to Mount Eden and we had lunch on the
01:22:45
top of Mount Eden and then uh took me around to the work work parole hostel in Kakari in Mount Eden and uh I met Dez
01:22:55
Burgess who was the warden of the uh pre-release hostel >> and um and his wife and he explained the
01:23:04
way things worked and and we were allowed out uh I was allowed to work go to work go to work every day had a job
01:23:10
at Oakland University doing uh research on prisoners rights under the under a government scheme called the PEP scheme
01:23:18
where the government subsidized an employer to give people who had just got out of jail or had been out of work uh
01:23:25
to give them a job and um and I was on that scheme and And then the next day I went into the
01:23:34
university and the law faculty was there and Bernie Brown who was a professor of
01:23:39
law there um gave me an office and and uh he looked after me. He he'd worked on
01:23:46
my appeal actually back 5 years before Bernie and um and I started doing this work because I had while I was in jail
01:23:56
after I finished my MA and I got moved down to I got first class honors for my MA and then I got moved down to how to
01:24:06
out of Pereimal after I'd finished my my my thesis and I did study uh and um uh a
01:24:16
criminal law >> a as an external student and I came top of the class. >> Wow.
01:24:24
>> And um a class of about 300. >> And um and Bernie was teaching that
01:24:30
class. So he he knew who I was and he he helped me get my PhD scholarship reinstated and so on which had lapsed
01:24:38
while I was in jail. and um and then and I was doing a paper called advanced criminal law as well and and so I was
01:24:47
able to attend classes um for the last part of the course and me and a guy called Barry Matthews who
01:24:54
ended up being the uh deputy commissioner of police we we we were top of that class.
01:25:01
>> Wow. And um and so I was studying and as well as doing this research on prisoners rights.
01:25:10
And so I was attending classes which was just exciting as hell >> being back at university and attending
01:25:16
law classes and and um Mary Kennedy was teaching in that class and I became friends with her and Bill Hodgej who was
01:25:25
also a law professor and he got me out running marathons >> and so you know it was just it's so
01:25:31
exciting. I mean it was just the most one of the most exciting times of my life and one of the happiest times of my
01:25:37
life. Oh, just cuz you had a new appreciation of freedom or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was able to go
01:25:44
running instead of at how to we used to run around the football field. >> Um and we I was able to run without a
01:25:53
running in a circle. So, Bill and I used to go out running and be run into the university or we do
01:26:02
a big circuit around Mount Eden or out around St. Helas. Uh do 20. We used to do sometimes do 20 m, you know, 30k runs
01:26:09
in the morning or else we'd go up the white tackeries. >> Yeah. The old Arthur Lydia block.
01:26:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we do do those big runs up up a mountain road
01:26:19
from from Tidarangi down into the valley and up mountain road or up uh um openuku road and back along the
01:26:28
summit road back to Tidarangi. Me and Bill. >> Yeah. >> And that so that was great. That was
01:26:33
while I was doing my still on work parole. And then I got uh I fronted the parole board and I was
01:26:43
I released a week before my statutory release date. They gave me a week and and I'd done a first class on an MA
01:26:54
with first class honors while I was in jail. So my reward for that was a week off my sentence.
01:27:00
>> Did um Yeah. Yeah. You're you're running. We we talked about this before
01:27:03
we started the podcast. You you were bloody good. You you got you did a 252 marathon, which is that's that's a
01:27:09
fantastic time. You did an Iron Man as well. Full iron man. >> Yeah, I did an Iron Man. Uh yeah, I did
01:27:15
the Iron Man in 1989. Uh that was after I I'd finished my PhD and I and I when I
01:27:22
was working at uh Canterbury University. >> Um but yeah, I did I did a few I did a
01:27:28
few marathons uh with Bill. Um, my first marathon was in fact the worry marathon which was a
01:27:36
week after my release date. >> Uh, my release date was the 30th of October
01:27:41
uh, 1980 and the worry marathon I think was a week after that. And I'd been training
01:27:48
with Bill and so um, I did that and I ran it uh, in 3 hours and 11 seconds. >> Got it.
01:27:57
>> Any marathon will know how devastating that is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, as I said be telling
01:28:02
you before, I I I I would have uh broken the 3 hours by a couple of seconds had my shoelace not come undone. And and no
01:28:11
excuses, but I had to bend over and do do my shoelace up and I reckon that took 11 seconds or maybe 12.
01:28:19
>> And were was it hard for um Yeah. Did your conviction sort of hold you back in
01:28:24
any way? like the way the way you explained it, it seems like you seamlessly got back to your academic
01:28:28
life. But I'm there's people out there that, you know, must be like once a
01:28:32
crook, always a crook or they're weary of you or they struggle to give you a
01:28:35
second chance. I had none of that really. >> No. Wow. >> People went out of their way to help me.
01:28:42
>> Why? You know, they went out of their way to help me. I think I've got an
01:28:46
honest face. >> Yeah. No, but honestly I uh I'm pretty sincere kind of a bloke and um people
01:28:54
took me for what I was uh took me at face value, you know, and uh and I was careful not to let people down really um
01:29:03
cuz I I I was faithful to Bill and I was faithful to Bernie and and people no one really I I was never aware of any
01:29:16
stigma at all. M >> um and when I was later on, much later in my life, when I was in the Ssbury
01:29:23
Street Foundation at Christ Church, dealing with long-term long-term uh criminals who who who'd come to this
01:29:31
halfway house that I was on the board of trustees and we were dealing with them and get getting them jobs. I found that
01:29:38
that that was common actually in New Zealand. You know, I'm really bloody impressed with New Zealanders in that
01:29:45
respect because they'll always give a bloke a fair chance. They'll always give
01:29:50
a guy the benefit of the doubt and some of them let them down, get let down. But
01:29:55
I found that generally New Zealanders will give a man a fair go. >> Uh they'll give you a chance. And I
01:30:04
found that more often than the other, they'll go out of their way to help you
01:30:08
if you've just got out of jail and you and you and you and you're honest about
01:30:12
things, you know, don't lie to them. >> Um, people are pretty bloody fair. Not
01:30:17
like the United States at all where there's huge stigma, >> right? if you've got out of jail and
01:30:22
I've been to the states quite a few times, >> you know, I can't go there now since
01:30:26
911, but um but I've been to state states over a dozen times to conferences where I given papers at at the big
01:30:35
conferences over there and they they're totally different attitude over there to
01:30:41
uh criminals. There's a real stigma. A real stigma to the point where I was once at the uh
01:30:50
at the Hyatt staying at the Hyatt in Chicago or somewhere and um and there was some a group of criminals, ex
01:30:59
criminals had got together and they were doing work on the hotel as a as a a company that was doing the putting in
01:31:06
the drywalls. And you know what? There were people outside pamphleting the hotel. Dear um
01:31:14
Hyatt customer, did you know that the that the company that's installing drywalls into this uh hotel are
01:31:23
criminals? Do you really do you feel safe in this hotel knowing that criminals are working in this hotel?
01:31:31
True. And there was a big and it was the picture with the with the message of a rat holding a a bag of money. And that's
01:31:40
that was true. I couldn't believe it. >> They were pamphleting the bloody hotel
01:31:45
and these guys were trying to make a go of their lives. >> Yeah. Oh boy. I thought that would never
01:31:51
happen in New Zealand. >> Wow. >> That would never happen. You'd be on the
01:31:55
news and and pill you'd be pillared for it. M >> speaking of being on the news, you you
01:32:00
you know, so you were um at the uh Canterbury University for 32 years um as a criminologist and you were like the
01:32:09
go-to guy on the news. Every time there was a story about law and order in New Zealand, you would see your ugly mug on
01:32:14
the >> 6:00 news. Yeah. You became quite quite famous, I guess, like the go-to guy.
01:32:19
>> I became Yeah. the the I became the leading uh really the leading spokesperson on
01:32:27
the leading um lay spokesperson uh expert opinion on on crime and uh prisons. >> What what is a criminologist? What does
01:32:38
that mean? >> Well, it's got different fields. Some criminologists um come from the law. it
01:32:45
it's not a discipline on its own right not like sociology or psychology um but
01:32:50
some come from the from the law profession um some come from sociology which like which I do and some are
01:32:59
psychology and they deal with different the um legal criminals are mainly invol involved with the law and and the law of
01:33:08
crime psychologists are mainly uh deal with the psychology Y of crime and the and
01:33:16
crime of individuals and what makes someone a criminal and what makes them how you deal with rehabilitating people
01:33:24
and so on. And a sociologist deals with the phenomen crime as a social phenomenon. And so you mainly deal with
01:33:32
crime trends. Um uh the effects of criminal justice policy on on trends of crime and all my
01:33:42
work was was historical stuff on the evolution of the criminal justice system, the evolution of prisons and
01:33:50
also how the profiles of crime have changed over the years and what's caused
01:33:57
those changes. For example, um you know, why did suddenly rape become why did rape become so heavily penalized
01:34:10
in the 19 late 70s and 80s? Well, the feminist movement had a lot to do with that with raising the profile, raising
01:34:19
public consciousness about rape and that resulted in changes in the law, changes
01:34:24
in criminal justice policy, changes in attitude towards sexual violation. And you can do the same with drug crime, for
01:34:32
example. Drug crime was not a big issue in New Zealand until the 1970s with the hippie movement. And you can trace that
01:34:40
back to the hippie movement just so you can you can trace the u feminist campaigns back to the Vietnam war
01:34:50
and the peace movement. And then they out of the peace movement came the black liberation movement and out of the black
01:34:57
liberation movement came the women's liberation movement and out of the women's liberation mo movement came rape
01:35:04
consciousness and u one of the one of my books crime law crime law and justice in New Zealand
01:35:11
is about that >> from from everything you've seen what actually reduces crime
01:35:20
>> um Well, um, from an individual point of view, what reduces your likelihood of becoming
01:35:32
a criminal >> is your upbringing primarily. >> And if you've been bashed around and and
01:35:39
badly parented or serial parented or suffered parental abdication um, when you're young, you're likely to
01:35:47
become go off the rails as you grow up. But if you've got a strong family with
01:35:53
strong moral compass, um you're less far less likely. Christians, for example,
01:36:00
people who brought up in very religious households seldom become criminals because they they have a very very
01:36:07
strict moral upbringing. Um but you don't need to be a Christian >> to be to to be well parented. Basically,
01:36:17
if you've got a a caring parents who take you to football and actually take a
01:36:22
a uh an act of interest in your upbringing, you're less likely to become a criminal. I had I had a very good
01:36:29
early upbringing. My mom was an alcoholic later on, but um none of my my brothers and sisters have become
01:36:36
criminals. >> Um I was the only one, but I was going to become a criminal anyway. Oh, not
01:36:41
become a criminal. I was become going to become a rebel. And of course because I'd have always been re rebellious and I
01:36:46
would and I wanted to try drugs. If it hadn't been for drugs, I wouldn't have
01:36:51
broken the law. I wouldn't have gone that way. I wouldn't have become a burglar. I wouldn't have become a
01:36:55
robber. >> I was just a drug offender because I wanted to have some fun. >> Yeah.
01:37:03
>> Is crime actually getting worse or does it just feel that way sometimes in New
01:37:06
Zealand? Well, um things there's a lot more lot more violence around now. Um murder rates um
01:37:20
in the in the 1950s and60s. A murder. There were maybe less than 10 murders a year. Now it's stabilized. The
01:37:29
murders a year this I 70 or 80 uh when I retired. I don't keep up with it these
01:37:34
days, but it had stabilized. the murder rate went up and then stabilized. >> Um it it it stabilized from about the
01:37:43
mid1 1980s where murder's concerned. But you have little fads, you know, where
01:37:49
crime's concerned. for example, you suddenly it's became it be it has become
01:37:55
um uh trendy or fashionable to uh ram rates became fashionable for a while and um so it's pretty hard to say that crime
01:38:06
rates themselves have gone up >> um because different crimes have different profiles and they're affected
01:38:14
by different social conditions um during times of poverty for example, then you're liable to get more property
01:38:22
crime. >> Yeah. Uh so it's pretty hard to to say um which crimes have gone up and and of
01:38:29
course then there's there's hidden crimes like sexual violation which convictions for sexual violation have
01:38:38
gone up because more people are reporting sexual violations in situations where in the 50s they
01:38:45
wouldn't have reported them because you you would have been um considered to be partly responsible
01:38:55
for leading someone on for example whereas nowadays that doesn't hold any water. You can't say, "Oh, I I raped her
01:39:03
because she led me on." Be a good one. You know, and rape and marriage of course became illegal in the 1980s as
01:39:10
well, whereas pre private to that part of your conjugal rights and and you couldn't be convicted of raping your
01:39:17
wife. And so and so the profiles change as a result of social conditions and as a result of um police and and criminal
01:39:27
justice policy and as a result of law changes >> in prison in New Zealand. Is it is it
01:39:34
currently working the system? Does it make people better or worse? >> One of the reasons um I think that
01:39:43
prisons are so violent now. I mean nearly all in fact all of the murders all of the homicides that have taken
01:39:50
place all of the prison homicides that have taken place in New Zealand in the history of
01:39:58
New Zealand penal policy all of them have taken place since 1979. >> Wow. >> The first prison homicide with Keith
01:40:06
Ross Hall who was murdered in perimeal prison A block had his throat cut in 1979.
01:40:13
All of them have occurred since then and that has partly to do um with the way prison administration has
01:40:25
changed. prison administration has become leaned far more towards the American model
01:40:32
unlike when I was in prison where we were living during a period of great liberalism and there was the prisons
01:40:41
weren't harsh places and if you treat a dog harshly you'll get a dog that bites
01:40:48
um or a dog that's cowed but basically you'll get a screwed up dog and um
01:40:59
in the prisons these days the much harsher much less forgiving kind of environment and you get people reacting
01:41:08
to that environment and so thus they're far more vi far more um dangerous places
01:41:16
than they used to be when I was there but it's also the case that the gangs are far more prominent in the prisons
01:41:24
than they were when I was in jail. Quite apart from the fact that perimeal the your prison your gang membership was
01:41:31
considered to be >> irrelevant. >> There weren't that many gang members in
01:41:37
jail when I was there whereas now there's a lot about a third in fact I think have gang affiliations. So um that
01:41:46
in itself leads to greater violence in prison. What do you have any idea of what
01:41:51
actually work when it comes to reducing reoffending? >> Yep. What do you reckon?
01:41:57
>> What works is that what happens in prison is less important. You know, all programs you
01:42:07
programs and programs and programs a big deal now. psychologists. There's psychologists and psychologists and they
01:42:13
play a big part in pretending that they're rehabilitating people, which is [ __ ]
01:42:19
>> What really matters What really matters is first of all the environment you came from.
01:42:28
>> Yeah. If you came from a loving, supportive environment, you're much less likely to
01:42:34
rein than if you reoffend than if you came from a a dysfunctional uh violent or um uh uh chaotic
01:42:44
environment as a child. Secondly, when you're in prison, if you've got strong support
01:42:54
from your family, that same family which which was supported you when you were young, even though you may have deviated
01:43:02
and and and broken the law and gone to jail as I did, if you've got strong family support when you're in jail,
01:43:10
that's a big help. That's a big help. M >> um and when I was in prison, I was in
01:43:18
prison at a time when there were lots and lots of middle class drug offenders like me
01:43:25
who came from good environments and broke the law. Well, we all had good backup,
01:43:32
you know, and there was a saying in Pereimal maximum when I was there amongst the Mauies.
01:43:38
About 60% of all the inmates in Pere u and there was a saying amongst the Mauies, the prisons full of Mauies
01:43:49
and the visiting rooms full of park hours. >> But the Maries didn't get visits.
01:43:54
>> They came from these really >> dysfunctional >> dysfunctional chaotic
01:44:00
uh splintered environments and and a lot of the parks had these were getting visits and a lot of Mars were getting
01:44:08
visited from from parkour visitors as well. So that was a big that's a big factor. I mean I had my family backing
01:44:15
me up. I had my dad and my mom visiting me regularly. Um I had my brothers and sisters visiting me. I had my friends
01:44:23
visiting and I had them doing stuff for me, running errands for me, helping me with my when I was doing studies. Mom
01:44:31
typed out my my MA, you know, I had all that kind of support. And then the third
01:44:37
thing is support when you get out. >> You've got to have those same people who
01:44:43
visiting you when you when you're in jail there standing for you and helping
01:44:49
you when you get out. M >> and I was really lucky in that respect. And also it wasn't just my family. You
01:44:56
see, I had Bill Hodgej. >> Yeah. >> And Professor Bill Hodgej and Professor
01:45:01
Bernard Brown, both in the law faculty at C at Oakland University who backed me when I got out, you know. So I had
01:45:11
really strong support when I got out. And that some research was done by G Jared Gilbert
01:45:19
and Ben Ellie and and and me. We we studied we did a study of uh and it was mainly Ben and and uh Jared that did the
01:45:30
research and then I helped write it up. Um they studied high-risk offenders, a cohort of high-risisk offenders
01:45:40
who had got out of jail. They were identified as high-risisk. they got out of jail and didn't reaffend. What were
01:45:47
the characteristics of those guys who were high risk at re of reoffending? What what were the characteristics that
01:45:55
they had in common which explains why they didn't offend? And the characteristics they had in
01:46:00
common were not that they didn't use drugs. Most of them used drugs when they
01:46:05
got out. >> It wasn't that. It wasn't the programs that they did when they were in prison.
01:46:11
It was the fact that they had support during their sentences and when they got out. And when they got out of jail, they
01:46:20
became ordinary citizens. >> They had love affairs. They got jobs, they got married, they got mortgages,
01:46:31
they got kids. And that was what happened. And and most of the people that I was in jail with who were from
01:46:38
those middle class backgrounds, mainly nearly all drug offenders, but not all, never reoffended. Some of them were had
01:46:46
done robberies. >> Uh some of them had done uh had killed people as well. Um
01:46:55
but they came from good environments and they didn't reaffend. And the ones who
01:47:00
came from dysfunctional environments, chaotic environments, nearly all of them went back to prison.
01:47:05
>> Yeah. >> Not all of them. It's not an absolute because I I had a couple of friends who
01:47:12
come from very good backgrounds. M Pete Atinson, for example, who's a who is a a a
01:47:20
uh a a prolific offender, >> um came from a good middle class background, but
01:47:29
but he's, you know, he he he's he's out now and and and has gone straight,
01:47:34
>> but he's 80, you know, >> so so but he spent most of his life in
01:47:40
jail, but he comes from a good middle- class environment background. But but mo but he's just an exception to the rule.
01:47:46
But nonetheless um the rule is that um people who live lives of crime come from tough environments
01:48:02
and tend to reaffend especially if they've started offending as at a young at a youthful age. There's a big
01:48:08
correlation between early onset and lifetime history of offending. >> Do you think that's part of the reason
01:48:16
um gang numbers are on the rise? The people that don't have a family suddenly
01:48:19
find a family in the gang. Is that >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Absolutely.
01:48:25
>> Is there anything? >> The gang is the family that they never had.
01:48:29
>> The gang's the f the family. The gang provides them with comradeship, meaning
01:48:35
um uh it provides them with a with an income, especially nowadays. Um it provides you with status, u a sense of
01:48:46
personal pride. All the things that that that uh that a an abusive or non-existent family didn't
01:48:56
provide will provide you when you get out. uh when you if you in the gang and and the the book that was written by
01:49:04
Glennice Denah and me called the girls in the gang was actually about that but it was about women and gangs but they
01:49:12
all came from these rough environments and um and they uh it was her MA I supervised
01:49:19
it and then we wrote it up as a book and u that's what we found she she did a study of women and gangs
01:49:27
and they nearly all came from terrible environment environments. >> Yeah. >> And they were abused as children,
01:49:32
sexually abused and physically abused and so on. And that was just normal for them.
01:49:38
And that leads to a pretty u a woman a person who can have serious personality problems when they grow up.
01:49:49
>> All those reasons that you just gave for people joining gangs, they they all
01:49:52
sound very very good. But is there actually anything good about gangs? Well, it provides uh it fulfills a need for
01:50:03
some people. Um uh and um I know I know a few a few gangsters who aren't involved in crime.
01:50:18
Um not everyone who's a gangster is in a is involved in crime. And so from that
01:50:24
point of view it it fulfills the need. It provides com just like the joining the police or joining the army.
01:50:31
>> It provides you with a group a reference group um which fulfills the psychological need that all humans have
01:50:40
that is a sense of belonging and a team to identify with. So from that point of view, I think
01:50:48
gangs do provide a good thing for some people, but they but there are also a lot of negative factors where gangs are
01:50:55
concerned >> and and some of those factors have to do with uh parenting styles.
01:51:02
>> Yeah. >> Uh and uh and a glorification of violence um and also inevitably uh drug use. So,
01:51:13
>> um, the negatives are greater than the positives in my view, >> but nonetheless, it's not all negative.
01:51:22
>> If what's the government getting right and what are they getting wrong when it
01:51:25
comes to crime and law and order? >> What would you what would you be doing
01:51:29
if you were in charge? >> Oh, I I I' I'd get rid of the gang gang patch abolition. I'd let them all
01:51:37
advertise their presence. Yeah. Yeah. It's like if someone's racist, you want them wearing a t-shirt
01:51:45
so you know you know what you're dealing with. >> I make it make it easier to keep tabs on
01:51:50
them. But do do um Yeah. Do we need to be does the the whoever's in charge need to be
01:52:00
tougher on crime or is that not working? Are we tough enough? >> I think a lot of I think uh
01:52:10
I would increase uh I would increase um a lot of sentences uh >> especially for violence violent crimes
01:52:19
>> um and I would increase dramatically sentences for white collar crime and sentences for money laundering
01:52:28
>> at the moment you can you can money launder criminals can't exist without money
01:52:35
laundering the money launderers they they are the enablers. >> Um they should be punished as heavily as
01:52:48
the as the as the principal perpetrators, but they're not. And um and like likewise my collar criminals
01:52:57
who who fleece millions of dollars off people, >> I would come down like a ton of bricks
01:53:03
on them. And another group I would come down like a ton of bricks on is people who physically abuse children, parents
01:53:11
or otherwise who physically abuse children or abdicate their parental responsibilities who um neglect their
01:53:21
children. I'd come down on them. Um but at the moment uh unless there's a sexual element to it
01:53:30
for the most part uh get off relatively lightly and of course the child protection agencies surfs SERs uh the
01:53:40
department of social welfare there have been so many different variations there have been so many different iterations
01:53:47
of of these agencies which have time and time again failed >> to protect children who were obviously
01:53:57
being abused and they didn't do their jobs. I'd be firing the people who
01:54:02
didn't do their jobs. Whereas at the moment, it doesn't appear that they get
01:54:07
they suffer any consequences at all when they screw up so badly that their child
01:54:13
ends up being maimed or or blinded or or killed. um and and nothing gets done, I'd come down on them because that's the
01:54:26
that's the genesis of the problems that we have later on. The genesis of the
01:54:32
dysfunctional adults is the dysfunctional childhoods they've had. >> Yeah.
01:54:39
>> People who've been brought up well brought up with loving parents and and
01:54:43
care and and cared for, they tend not to end up in prison. and they tend up to be product they tend
01:54:53
to be productive citizens. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, that's where,
01:54:58
you know, the feminists have focused heavily on sex crime and and the government's responded, but the the
01:55:06
whole thing about parenting as a whole, criminal crimes towards children which don't carry a sexual element aren't
01:55:15
taken as seriously >> and it's ridiculous in my view. >> Yeah. Whenever something happens like a
01:55:20
high-profile one like Kahoui twins or Nia Glassy like there's no one that's
01:55:25
not outraged by it. >> Oh, that's right. >> The the the nation's heart breaks every
01:55:29
time it happens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I would come down on them and uh
01:55:36
>> but you know Yeah. You can talk all day about what you would do and what you
01:55:41
wouldn't do. >> Jeez. Um yeah, you've got stories and knowledge for days. E I could sit here
01:55:46
talking to you forever. the this this this young man on the the cover of the book, Dream Dealer, what would um what
01:55:52
would he make of the 74 year old man sitting here today? Uh, I'd be quite surprised that I got so far because I I
01:56:01
never thought that I could ever when I even when I first entered university as a as a a lecturer at level three, near
01:56:09
the bottom of the lecturer scale, I never would have dreamed I could have ever I never ever imagined that I could
01:56:15
ever have become a professor. But um I worked hard and uh and I but I didn't really know the way things worked
01:56:24
in those days either. But um yeah, I wouldn't have thought and and at that age of course I you
01:56:34
don't at the age I was only 18 when that was taken. There was photograph on the
01:56:39
cover of the book was taken the day before I got sentenced >> to um uh detention detention in a
01:56:48
detention center. A three-month prison sentence. >> Oh, like a youth boot camp.
01:56:51
>> Yeah, a youth boot camp. Yeah. >> Which is another thing that doesn't work
01:56:56
incidentally. >> Another another example of history failed history repeating itself.
01:57:03
>> Yeah. I I think um I I think it's uh it's the sizzle, not the sausage. Like
01:57:07
people like the idea of it. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Every government wants to be tough on
01:57:11
crime. >> Yeah. Um >> um so I would have been surprised to see myself as I am now. Yeah.
01:57:17
>> How do you feel about aging in this chapter of your life? I read a quote
01:57:20
from you in a staff article like five or six years ago just when you were packing
01:57:23
up and moving from Christ Church to Bay of Plenty and you said something like you've got 10 to 20 good years left.
01:57:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. So today that's down to that's down to like um 5 to 15.
01:57:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's getting low. Getting near the end of it. >> You're sharp though. Like your mental
01:57:38
recall is great and physically you're fit. >> Yeah. Physically fit and uh and uh
01:57:43
mentally hoping not to lose the plot too much in the next 10 years. My memory's
01:57:49
becoming not as good as it was. But uh >> I don't know. I don't know. You've
01:57:52
mentioned you've dropped you've mentioned a lot of names today. >> Yeah. Yeah.
01:57:55
>> With I tend to remember longterm things. I tend to forget short term and my
01:58:00
short-term memory is not as good as my long-term memory. >> What are you most afraid of?
01:58:06
>> Uh of being paralyzed or having a stroke or something like that. >> Yeah.
01:58:13
>> You know, you never know what what going to be what's going to be thrown at you.
01:58:18
>> Um you know, I had a heart attack earlier this year. Um I had a stent put in. I'm
01:58:25
feeling a lot better as a result. Feel real good. I was getting angina when I was out on the bike. Now I've had the
01:58:30
stent put and I don't get angina anymore. So I'm happy about that. But you know a good mate of mine that I was
01:58:36
in prison with Chris. >> Um he had a stroke last year and and and is now semi paralyzed down one side of
01:58:43
his body. Has changed his life. You know I'm bloody worried about that. So I take
01:58:48
all my meds. I do. >> You're still on the drugs? >> I do different drugs these days.
01:58:53
>> Take all my drugs. crushing them up and snorting them or >> if if everything stopped tomorrow, what
01:59:03
would you be most grateful for? >> If everything stopped? >> Yeah. If you dropped dead tomorrow, what
01:59:09
would you be most grateful for out of this life? Threearters of a century. >> I'd be happy about uh
01:59:19
about my marriage. >> How long How long you been married? uh got married in 20 uh
01:59:25
20 >> oh 2012. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 2012. >> Jeez. I was I I knew that. I've read 13
01:59:35
years. >> I say my short-term memory is not so good, but um yeah, been married. I know.
01:59:40
I've been married. Yeah. But um I've had uh I've had I've got a really good
01:59:46
relationship with my wife. >> Wonderful. Is this your second marriage or your first one?
01:59:49
>> No, my first. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Why did you get you got married quite
01:59:52
old then, didn't you? >> Yeah. Yeah, I was uh 60, I think. >> Why? How did you 61?
01:59:56
>> How did you get to 60 years without marrying someone without getting pinned
01:59:58
down? >> Because I I was a philanderer. >> A terrible philanderer. And uh yeah,
02:00:06
>> terrible as you were successful at it or >> Yeah, I I was unstoppable philander, you
02:00:12
know. I really used to just have always uh >> during my un lots of different women,
02:00:19
you know, >> lots of women and uh >> and and several at one time normally,
02:00:24
you know, >> um uh and so I couldn't settle down. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. I couldn't settle down with one
02:00:31
woman and I didn't see what what what advantage that would be. And as I said
02:00:35
in the book, I once I reached in my my about 50, I started thinking it was time to get serious about girls, you know,
02:00:45
and maybe think about having a cuz it's got advantages as well, you know. >> Like George Clooney, not settling down
02:00:53
until your 50s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's worked out pretty good. I
02:00:57
It's a lot of life's about timing, isn't it? The right person at the right time.
02:01:01
>> It's got to be the right That's dead right. You know, in the past, I had some
02:01:05
lovely girlfriends um who I could have married had the time been right for me. >> Um but um when the I got married to a
02:01:16
Chinese woman called Lucy and it's worked out really well. M um we've had
02:01:22
uh some violent arguments from time to time because there is a time but they they sort of
02:01:33
that was early on. You know you you adjust you adjust to each other and uh you know what I know not to push her
02:01:41
buttons. >> Yeah. Who who knows? And and as I said in the book, I realized I have to accept
02:01:49
how wrong I can be and how often I can be wrong. >> Even if you don't necessarily believe
02:01:54
it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just waving that white flag sometimes. Who Who knows the real you? She knows the real you.
02:02:02
>> Like the complet you know how >> I know the real me. >> Yeah.
02:02:05
>> Nobody is ever completely honest with their spouse. >> If you were, you'd never be married.
02:02:09
Yeah. >> So, you know the real you you you like when you're standing in front of the
02:02:13
mirror in the morning having a shave, you like who you see. >> Yeah. I like myself.
02:02:16
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like who I like myself. I mean, if I didn't like myself, I
02:02:21
wouldn't be the way I was that made me dislike myself. >> You know what I'm saying?
02:02:28
>> I think what I think is moral and correct. And if I if I don't, I I pull
02:02:34
myself up. And there's times in my life, a couple of times that I can think of
02:02:38
and I don't want to relate them where I haven't treated people fairly. And I've
02:02:47
and I've regret that for the rest of my life >> where I one one occasion I did there was
02:02:53
a when I was in jail we were in this thing where you had to be you had to be knocking was the worst possible thing
02:03:04
worst possible thing. You absolute an [ __ ] if you ever did that. And there was a guy in jail who was I liked
02:03:13
a lot who and when I got out of jail uh someone told me that this guy there was in a book actually that and it
02:03:23
was a law book and this that this particular person that Mark that he had assisted the police
02:03:34
>> now that can mean anything. That doesn't mean he's an arc. All it means that he had been cooperate,
02:03:43
not assisted the police. He'd been cooperative with the police and that it didn't mean he was an arc at all. It had
02:03:51
couldn't meant anything and he was a good bloke. And I wrote a letter to the guys in P.
02:03:59
This joker as cooperated with the police and he was ostracized in the prison. As
02:04:06
a result of that, he was ostraized and it was completely unfair of me to do that and to jump to that conclusion and
02:04:15
make his life a misery. It was a horrible thing to do and I'm deeply guilty about it. And he he actually
02:04:23
confronted me one night in the pub after he got out and he said, "You know what
02:04:27
you did to me and I just I just I just crushed and I I just felt so sick and I just I did." And he said, "I'll never
02:04:39
forgive you." And I said, "Well, I don't blame you. I'm a bastard for doing that.
02:04:43
You know, I should never have done it." >> And everyone else who was in the jail,
02:04:47
they all flopped in and they they ostracized them as well. and and I don't know whether he did anything wrong at
02:04:53
all. It was completely unfair and I hate myself for it, you know, but I punish myself every day I think of it.
02:05:03
>> But this says I think a lot about your character that you're still flogging
02:05:07
yourself about this decades later. >> Yeah. Well, I was I was in that stink
02:05:12
way of thinking that I got out when I was in jail. you know that we're all thinking that we were doing the right
02:05:17
thing if we're pointing out exposing KNS, you know, but it was over the top.
02:05:22
It was completely unjustified, >> you know, and you've got to really you've really you got to flog yourself
02:05:29
over things like that. You can't let it go and make excuses for yourself. You've
02:05:33
got to face up to the fact that you did a wrong thing to a person and made someone miserable.
02:05:40
You know, a terrible thing to do. How old are you? How old are your grandkids now? Are they at an age where
02:05:46
have they read the book? >> No. No. No. They're too young. >> Too young.
02:05:49
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, they'll read it one day. >> One day they will they'll read it.
02:05:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Their mother might not let them. >> If if if they were here, your your adult
02:05:59
kids or your grandkids, and they had to come up with three words to describe your character, what three words would
02:06:05
you hope they would say? Uh, I tell you I'd tell you I've got an honest heart.
02:06:15
>> That's what I would say. That's one thing I I I I hold highly and that is
02:06:19
honesty, personal honesty. >> You know, you'll be true to yourself. >> Um, and I try to be true to and that's
02:06:27
why there's a lot in that book that people would be ashamed of and and the feedback I've had, they said, "You've
02:06:32
been pretty honest about that." Well, that's the way it was. And if you're not
02:06:36
going to write an honest account of your life, you might as well not write the account.
02:06:40
>> Yeah. >> You might as well write a novel. >> And that's not a novel. It's a true
02:06:43
account of my life and who I am. >> Um Jeez, it's a great book. And this has
02:06:49
been a great podcast. >> Oh, thanks. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's been really nice to meet and
02:06:53
connect today. >> Yeah. How's it for you reflecting on some of the ugly parts of your life?
02:06:58
>> Oh, there's nothing really ugly >> about it. I I don't really down the ugly
02:07:03
things that couple things I was once unfair to a girlfriend of mine. >> Yeah. I hate that.
02:07:12
But >> got to learn from it, not do it again. >> I learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. You know.
02:07:18
>> Yeah. But but I've tried to be honest and fair with people all my life and uh
02:07:23
and so and the the my life hasn't my life's been pretty good and I think I've been pretty fair
02:07:32
to people most of my life. >> Yeah. And certainly when I was I I'm pretty pretty happy with the way
02:07:41
I've lived my life in general. >> Hey well Greg New has been great. Um,
02:07:48
the grandkids are going to hear this one day. They're going to learn about the
02:07:51
cigar case. Hopefully, hopefully that happens after you pass. But, and hopefully that's many years
02:07:58
from now, too. By the way, hey, this has been a great podcast. Thank you so much,
02:08:01
mate. >> Yeah. Thanks.