00:00:00
I felt like the blood had drained out of
00:00:02
my body. I knew my 30s were gone.
00:00:05
>> You were um an anthropology student and
00:00:07
you went from that to dealer in a
00:00:09
alarmingly short period of time.
00:00:10
>> I don't want to be it.
00:00:11
>> What about heroin?
00:00:12
>> It's such a lovely drug.
00:00:13
>> Terry Clark, who's um probably better
00:00:15
known as Mr. Asia.
00:00:16
>> He would kill you.
00:00:17
>> What are those first few days like after
00:00:18
losing your freedom?
00:00:19
>> I was only 23.
00:00:20
>> Did you ever ever contemplate taking
00:00:22
your own life at that point?
00:00:23
>> I I can't handle anymore. I'll never
00:00:24
forgive you. I've got an honest heart.
00:00:27
>> Oh, good. You here? Come on. This is the
00:00:30
center of performance. Whenever there's
00:00:32
a top performance in New Zealand, it all
00:00:33
comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington.
00:00:36
She's been doing that for days. That's
00:00:38
the boys who got the hole in one in
00:00:42
it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:00:44
performance going?
00:00:45
>> Top tier.
00:00:45
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:00:48
here, you'll find our top performers
00:00:49
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:00:51
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:00:53
>> Maximize. Generate.
00:00:55
>> Putting performance first.
00:00:56
>> Reed Newol. Welcome to my podcast.
00:00:59
>> Oh, thanks. Good to be here.
00:01:00
>> Yeah, it's great to have you here. U
00:01:02
just just a second ago, you were um
00:01:04
asking me what a podcast is.
00:01:05
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm low tech. I don't I
00:01:08
haven't even got a cell phone, you know.
00:01:10
>> Yeah. Do you not?
00:01:11
>> How do you how do you get by without a
00:01:12
cell phone?
00:01:13
>> I got a landline.
00:01:15
>> Right. You still got a landline?
00:01:16
>> I got a landline and I got email.
00:01:18
>> What about when you go out of town?
00:01:20
>> Write letters.
00:01:23
>> What about if you want to get a hold of
00:01:24
someone now?
00:01:26
>> Wow.
00:01:28
I don't.
00:01:30
>> Oh, good on you.
00:01:30
>> I know. My wife's got a cell phone, so I
00:01:32
rely on her. But cuz when when you go
00:01:35
away a lot, you know, nowadays, you need
00:01:37
you've got to have a thing like an app
00:01:39
and you got to, you know, you got to do
00:01:42
a screen uh what do they call them?
00:01:44
Those round things with the squares on.
00:01:46
You got to go flick on them. And I can't
00:01:49
do it. So, I have to get her to do it.
00:01:51
Even if I'm going to send something to
00:01:53
the United States, like I send a copy of
00:01:56
my book to some people I know in the US.
00:01:59
Um nowadays you have to
00:02:03
do the QR code it's called. You click
00:02:05
the QR code, put in the data, get a a um
00:02:10
a barcode, put take the barcode into
00:02:13
post shop. Well, I can't do that cuz I
00:02:16
haven't got a cell phone.
00:02:17
>> I'm going to be
00:02:18
>> I mean that means I can't I'm isolated.
00:02:20
>> Yeah. And I'm becoming increasingly
00:02:22
isolated because when you go on a say on
00:02:24
a cruise on a ship cruise, all the
00:02:27
purchases have to be done with your QR
00:02:29
code.
00:02:30
>> Why don't you just get a bloody phone?
00:02:32
>> I don't like that.
00:02:35
>> I'm going to be the I It's like I'm
00:02:37
staring at my future self. I'm I'm 53.
00:02:39
When I'm 74, I'm going to be exactly the
00:02:41
same as you. I feel like I'm getting
00:02:43
left behind with some tech stuff now.
00:02:45
>> Anyway, it's great to have you here. Um
00:02:47
yeah, brand new book out, Dream Dealer.
00:02:49
Um, how do you feel about it?
00:02:51
>> I I like the book. I had a hell of a lot
00:02:54
of fun writing it. When I first got
00:02:57
retired, um, you know, a few people were
00:03:00
asking me to write my memoirs, you know,
00:03:03
and I just couldn't face it because I'd
00:03:05
been sitting in front of a computer
00:03:08
plunking away for the last 30 years, you
00:03:12
know, and I'd retired and I was that was
00:03:15
all finished for me, you know, but now
00:03:17
it's um four years later and no, six
00:03:20
years, no, five years later, I decided,
00:03:22
oh, I could do that, you know, And so I
00:03:25
started remembering everything and uh
00:03:29
just like I did when I wrote the big
00:03:30
Huey which was my first book.
00:03:32
>> Your prison diaries in the early 80s.
00:03:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. In the early 80s.
00:03:35
>> So um yeah. So right like from the
00:03:38
perspective now of a of a pensioner uh
00:03:40
writing about your five years
00:03:41
incarcerated from like 1975 to 1980. uh
00:03:45
a lot of that time at maximum security
00:03:47
pero. Is it is it do you look back now
00:03:49
like from the perspective of where you
00:03:51
are with like rose tinted glasses or is
00:03:52
it still like a a triggering and jarring
00:03:54
thing to write about?
00:03:55
>> Um
00:03:57
well
00:03:59
jail in those days was a lot easier than
00:04:02
it is now. You know jail they they
00:04:05
actually cared about us. that the prison
00:04:08
administration cared about us and they
00:04:10
cared about us in Wellington and we had
00:04:13
pretty good conditions because it was
00:04:15
right at the end of that liberal period
00:04:17
which started in the 1960s with the
00:04:19
Hannon Robson era and then continued
00:04:23
through until about the end of the 70s
00:04:26
when the gangs started coming in and
00:04:29
taking over the jails and all the
00:04:31
camaraderie of the prisons was lost. um
00:04:35
all the all the solidarity that inmates
00:04:37
had, especially at perimeal was lost
00:04:40
because the gang ethic took over and it
00:04:43
became that you you became a gang member
00:04:45
first and a and an inmate second.
00:04:48
Whereas when I was in jail, you were an
00:04:50
inmate first and and gang member was
00:04:53
your gang membership was irrelevant. And
00:04:55
there weren't a lot of gangsters in jail
00:04:57
either in those days. We stuck together.
00:05:00
And when the when the inmates came into
00:05:02
Pereimal, they were told by the old
00:05:04
hands,
00:05:06
you're not a you're not a gang member
00:05:08
anymore.
00:05:10
>> We're all the same. We're inmates.
00:05:12
>> Yeah. We're all inmates because once you
00:05:15
break up that solidarity, you lose your
00:05:17
strength.
00:05:18
>> And we had a lot of a lot of community
00:05:21
strength and community spirit,
00:05:23
particularly in maximum security. That
00:05:25
made it a good a a good environment to
00:05:28
do time in because people cared about
00:05:29
each other
00:05:31
>> and they cared about the colle cared
00:05:33
about the collective about our
00:05:35
collective interests, you know.
00:05:37
>> Yeah. You talk about this in the book
00:05:38
and just the gang culture of the 1970s
00:05:40
um where it was just sort of like um
00:05:42
based on American gangs like Hell's
00:05:44
Angels and what was the other one?
00:05:46
>> Hell's Angels, Black Pow Hunters, Mongle
00:05:50
Mob. They were all They were all there.
00:05:52
Particularly in the when I in the lower
00:05:55
security, they weren't prominent in in
00:05:58
high security. The only real gangs in
00:06:01
high security were the head hunters and
00:06:05
um and the um Hell's Angels cuz a whole
00:06:08
bunch of them came in for the killing of
00:06:10
Bradley Hora.
00:06:12
>> And so there was a group of of angels in
00:06:14
there, but they didn't flout their
00:06:16
membership. They were me inmates like
00:06:18
the rest of us.
00:06:21
This is going to be a great podcast. I I
00:06:23
can tell just from this um this opening
00:06:24
five minutes um because there's two very
00:06:27
distinct chapters to your life. There's
00:06:28
the um the the the drug dealer and then
00:06:30
the incarceration period. Yeah.
00:06:32
>> And then there's the the the huge period
00:06:34
of like 30 years where you were working
00:06:35
at the University of Canterbury and you
00:06:37
were like the go-to criminologist. Every
00:06:39
time you turn on the TV and there's a
00:06:40
story about crime, you'd see your face
00:06:42
on TV. So, this is going to be good. Um
00:06:44
the the by line for your book is called
00:06:46
From Prisoner to Professor.
00:06:49
If you were at a um prisoner and
00:06:50
professor party, which of those two
00:06:52
groups would you gravitate towards?
00:06:54
>> H I depends on what the party was, but
00:06:59
and whether I knew them, but I I get on
00:07:01
pretty well with ordinary guys from the
00:07:05
from the
00:07:06
butabouts, you know, I get on well with
00:07:09
knockabouts. Um
00:07:10
>> people that have got some scars on their
00:07:12
backs.
00:07:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. But but but at the same time
00:07:15
you know when I was at at um uh at
00:07:19
Canterbury University I very very close
00:07:21
to a lot of people particularly in the
00:07:24
engineering in the engineering faculty
00:07:27
and also um a mate of mine called Robin
00:07:30
Bond who came from classics and I got I
00:07:33
had some really good times with them and
00:07:35
and Peter Goff from engineering and
00:07:38
Cynthia Halls from law and Andy Buchanan
00:07:41
from engineering you know though
00:07:43
ordinary people that I don't get on well
00:07:46
>> with academics and people who identify
00:07:50
as academics or as scholars but you know
00:07:53
when when you're in those kinds of
00:07:55
circles that sort of people who like
00:07:58
having parties like having fun and also
00:08:01
in the tango community which I joined I
00:08:03
love the tango community and a lot of
00:08:05
them came from the a lot of the tango
00:08:09
community were educated people and they
00:08:12
came from areas like um medicine, art,
00:08:18
>> a lot of artists, poets, and those kind
00:08:20
of gone real well with the tango
00:08:22
community. So, I wouldn't say I prefer
00:08:25
one group over another really. I I just
00:08:27
get on with a I've got a a variety of
00:08:30
friends from different walks of life and
00:08:35
and I get on with all of them. I mean,
00:08:37
I've got a lot of friends in the in the
00:08:40
hunting community, you know, hunting and
00:08:42
fishing and diving sort of thing.
00:08:44
>> Look at you go. Hunter by day, tango by
00:08:46
night.
00:08:48
>> The the last um paragraph of the book um
00:08:52
yeah, I've um I've gone through the
00:08:53
book. Um I'm not giving away any
00:08:56
spoilers, but the last paragraph, which
00:08:57
I really like, um I've had a wonderful
00:08:59
life at 74. I don't think I've ever been
00:09:02
more content. Lucy and I thrive in each
00:09:05
other's company. I love being alive and
00:09:07
I'm not looking forward to dying. I'm
00:09:09
actually trying to put it off. It's a
00:09:11
good line. For me, getting old is
00:09:13
marvelous and retirement is everything
00:09:15
it's cracked up to be. I recommend both.
00:09:18
Everyone lives a happy ending. It's it's
00:09:20
and it's great that you've got this
00:09:21
peace and contentment at this stage of
00:09:23
life. Right.
00:09:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've got a I've
00:09:26
had a really good life, an interesting
00:09:28
life, lot of variety. I've made lots of
00:09:30
friends, got to know a hell of a lot of
00:09:33
nice people from all walks of life, you
00:09:35
know, from all walks of life. Cuz I'm
00:09:36
still in contact with quite a few of the
00:09:39
people who I was in prison with. And I'm
00:09:41
still very good friends with them. And
00:09:43
I'm I'm friends with all sorts of
00:09:45
people. And uh
00:09:47
um and that really enriches your life
00:09:49
actually having having friends from a
00:09:54
with different perspectives on the
00:09:56
world. than that
00:09:59
>> this young version of you on the cover.
00:10:01
Um yeah, hands handsome young fella.
00:10:03
>> Oh yeah.
00:10:04
>> Um how how yeah
00:10:06
>> that before I became ugly.
00:10:08
>> Well time remains undefeated. Right. Um
00:10:11
how are you how are you the same as that
00:10:13
young man on the cover and and Yeah.
00:10:15
Yeah. How do you feel the same when you
00:10:17
look at that? Do you recognize it's you?
00:10:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My personality
00:10:22
was always, you know, the basics of my
00:10:24
personality have always been u unchanged
00:10:29
really. I've always been a I've always
00:10:31
considered myself to be a principled
00:10:33
person. And people might say, "Oh, well
00:10:35
then how come you were selling heroin?"
00:10:37
Well, I was in the heroin community and
00:10:39
I was a good dealer. I was I sold I was
00:10:42
an honest heroin dealer.
00:10:45
>> Yeah. You say that in the book. You
00:10:46
never used to cut it. No, I never would
00:10:48
cut my gear and I always sell good gear
00:10:51
to people.
00:10:52
>> I would give them a good deal, but I,
00:10:53
you know, we were using the same I was
00:10:56
using smack and selling to the people
00:10:58
who were selling to me.
00:10:59
>> You know, I was only a small time
00:11:01
dealer. I was portrayed in the, you
00:11:03
know, in the trial as a kingpin kingpin
00:11:07
Mr. Big. But in actual fact, I wasn't.
00:11:10
It was just the way the police portrayed
00:11:12
it, you know, because they wanted to get
00:11:14
a big sense and and they wanted to get
00:11:17
um uh credit for having busted a bloody
00:11:20
big heroin ring. In actual fact, I was
00:11:22
just a street. I was just a street I was
00:11:24
a bloody minnow.
00:11:26
>> Yeah, we we're going to um get into all
00:11:28
that. Yeah. 34 gram is what you were you
00:11:30
caught with now. There's more of an
00:11:32
understanding on drugs now. And I I
00:11:34
think they understand it's more of a
00:11:35
health issue for an amount like that
00:11:36
which is um yeah, for supply. Yeah.
00:11:38
You'd probably get home detention maybe,
00:11:40
wouldn't you?
00:11:41
>> Yeah, pretty much. And and nowadays, you
00:11:44
know, I said before the prisons are were
00:11:46
easier when I was in there, but the
00:11:48
sentences were longer.
00:11:50
>> Nowadays, the senses are a lot of them
00:11:52
are derisory, I think. You know, when
00:11:54
you get people king hitting people and
00:11:56
killing them, knocking people, punching
00:11:59
them without without their defenses and
00:12:01
and the people getting knocked out like
00:12:03
that that MMA fighter who got knocked
00:12:05
out,
00:12:06
>> fell. Yeah. Well, we've redefined it. We
00:12:08
call it a coward punch now.
00:12:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Coward
00:12:12
punch. And Yeah. Boy, I tell you, and
00:12:15
the sentences people are getting for
00:12:16
that are bloody ridiculously short in my
00:12:19
view.
00:12:20
>> You know, it's only if it's got a sexual
00:12:22
element. If there's a sexual element in
00:12:24
it, you're gone.
00:12:25
>> Gone for a long time. But if there's no
00:12:26
sexual element, you can kill a kid, beat
00:12:28
a bit of child to death. And and quite
00:12:31
often the sentence they get is small
00:12:34
>> compared to the the gravity of the
00:12:36
offense.
00:12:37
>> Yeah.
00:12:37
>> And the impact it has on the victim.
00:12:40
>> The sentences are
00:12:43
they don't the sentences don't they
00:12:46
don't fit the crime in my view.
00:12:48
>> But but you know like prisons are much
00:12:50
harder though. M
00:12:52
>> there's um I've got a whole section
00:12:54
later on about your crim criminologist
00:12:56
career and just from that answer I think
00:12:59
there's going to be a lot of hot takes
00:13:00
there your views about um crime and
00:13:02
punishment in New Zealand at the moment.
00:13:03
Um first of all can I say you're looking
00:13:05
really good. So you turned 75 in a
00:13:07
couple of months. Um and you're super
00:13:08
fit, right? What's your daily routine?
00:13:10
You run every day, you're on the bike
00:13:11
every day.
00:13:12
>> Um I I I have a six day routine and I do
00:13:16
two uh two 1500 me swims. uh two 40k uh
00:13:22
bike rides or two-hour bike rides and uh
00:13:26
and two gym workouts, weight workouts,
00:13:29
which is about, you know, I do about 50
00:13:31
minutes. Um uh and I do that every day
00:13:35
and I have one day off normally.
00:13:37
>> Um and that day I might go I used to
00:13:39
climb up Mount Monganoi, Mount Mo, but
00:13:43
now that's shut because of the
00:13:45
landslide, so I don't do that anymore.
00:13:47
But
00:13:48
>> yeah. Yeah, I keep uh keep pretty fit.
00:13:50
>> And am I right in assuming that your
00:13:52
love of movement began in jail? You
00:13:54
started long-distance running while you
00:13:55
were incarcerated.
00:13:57
>> Um I actually before I went to jail, I
00:14:02
was uh well, when I was a kid, you know,
00:14:06
I was a um organ judo champion. So, I
00:14:09
did judo uh as a junior and uh and I won
00:14:13
the under nin stone championship uh when
00:14:16
I was about 12 or 13 or something. And
00:14:20
then when I was in jail, no sorry, when
00:14:22
I was at university, I was uh exercising
00:14:26
fairly regularly, but not entering any
00:14:29
races. But I was doing a bit of running
00:14:32
and and then I then I was doing karate
00:14:35
for a u about four years. I got a first
00:14:38
down with the Cheetah Khan Club. Um and
00:14:42
um won the Oakland University
00:14:45
Championship,
00:14:47
Sparring Championship and Carter.
00:14:49
>> Um so I was always involved and then
00:14:52
when I went to jail in Mount Eden when I
00:14:55
was in Ramand, I used to run uh run
00:14:58
around the yard every day, which was I
00:15:01
was unusual and and that. So we're only
00:15:05
out for two hours a day. Uh we're out
00:15:07
for 4 hours a day out of ourselves and I
00:15:10
used to go for runs around the yard.
00:15:11
>> How big was the yard?
00:15:13
>> Not very big.
00:15:13
>> What do you reckon? Like 100 meters if
00:15:15
you
00:15:15
>> about 20 laps to the mile. I think it
00:15:18
was something like that.
00:15:19
>> Yeah.
00:15:20
>> Oh, good on you. Well, you're looking
00:15:21
you're looking great. I think that's the
00:15:22
key. You you got to keep moving. Yeah.
00:15:26
Yeah. You can get old pretty quick if
00:15:27
you don't.
00:15:28
>> Well, let's um let's go all the way
00:15:30
back. So, um the Greg Newold story. Um
00:15:33
alcoholic mom. Dad left when you were
00:15:35
11.
00:15:37
>> What impact did that have on you? Is
00:15:39
that was it were you rebellious? Did you
00:15:40
have a rebellious streak before then or
00:15:42
was that sort of um
00:15:44
>> was that a turning point for you?
00:15:45
>> It pretty well I think
00:15:49
I became more and more rebellious
00:15:52
around the time my balls dropped around
00:15:55
the time I reached puberty. you know, I
00:15:57
was actually a very very shy young boy
00:16:01
and I I was I was nervous of other
00:16:05
people and so on until until my balls
00:16:07
dropped. And then when I reached started
00:16:10
reaching puberty, the testosterone, I
00:16:13
think, kicked in and and I become a lot
00:16:15
more self-confident.
00:16:17
And another thing that made me
00:16:19
self-confident was the judo
00:16:21
>> when I found that I could, you know, I
00:16:24
could win fights, you know, and I was
00:16:27
that gave me a lot of confidence because
00:16:29
it's important to a young boy to be sort
00:16:31
of masculine and so on. And um and I was
00:16:34
good at judo
00:16:35
>> and so that that really kicked in around
00:16:39
the same time and I started becoming
00:16:41
confident
00:16:42
>> and in myself.
00:16:44
>> Yeah. You just know that no one's going
00:16:46
to bully you.
00:16:47
>> Yeah, you can still be bullied. I mean,
00:16:49
it doesn't make you the God's gift of
00:16:50
fighting, but it gives you uh uh it
00:16:52
gives you some confidence in yourself
00:16:54
and ability to handle situations.
00:16:58
>> Do you remember your first introduction
00:16:59
to drugs?
00:17:01
>> Yeah.
00:17:02
>> When when and where?
00:17:04
>> Um it was when I was in the fire
00:17:07
service.
00:17:09
Um, and oh no, I might have still been
00:17:12
at school. Uh, was sooner around that
00:17:15
time. Anyway, we were because this is
00:17:18
the hippie era. So, everyone was trying
00:17:20
to get hold of marijuana cuz this was
00:17:22
the era. This is when the um the
00:17:25
Hayashbury
00:17:27
uh scene was going on and and there was
00:17:30
lots and lots of songs about, you know,
00:17:32
let's go to San Francisco Flowers in
00:17:34
your hair. And we all knew they were all
00:17:35
smoking dope.
00:17:37
smoking dope was the cool thing to do
00:17:40
and and to have marijuana was uh was
00:17:44
made you a cool guy. And so I really
00:17:46
wanted to get hold of some h uh some uh
00:17:50
marijuana some some dope smoking dope
00:17:52
>> and um and I managed to get some off off
00:17:55
the high revving tongues actually.
00:17:57
>> Oh the band. Yeah, the band called the
00:17:59
High Reving Tongues and they had some
00:18:01
marijuana and I was able to buy some off
00:18:02
them.
00:18:03
>> And uh
00:18:04
>> is it is it okay for you to be telling
00:18:05
the story? Are you snitching?
00:18:10
>> They're not going to they're not going
00:18:11
to send out.
00:18:16
Well, that's where I got my first then I
00:18:17
went then we went to Australia, you
00:18:19
know, after my first year at university.
00:18:22
And um so it was what it would have been
00:18:25
when I was in the fire brigade. There
00:18:26
was a guy called Mo at Rangatoto College
00:18:29
who had access to marijuana, but no one
00:18:32
else could. You couldn't get it. You
00:18:33
know, marijuana was real hard to get in
00:18:35
those days.
00:18:36
>> Was it really?
00:18:37
>> Oh, yeah. [ __ ] Yeah. So,
00:18:39
>> I'm talking about 1969. It was It was
00:18:41
very hard to get in New Zealand then.
00:18:43
>> Only a few people. You had to be on the
00:18:45
in crowd, you know. Tommy Adalie had
00:18:47
some, you know, he was a uh he was a,
00:18:50
you know, a singer and and the people in
00:18:52
the band scene could get it, but you had
00:18:55
to be super cool,
00:18:56
>> you know, to get that. Um, but then
00:19:00
>> uh so I started smoking dope. And then
00:19:02
of course I ever since I was at at first
00:19:06
read about the dangers of drugs and how
00:19:08
bad they were when I was at
00:19:11
intermediate school, that made me want
00:19:14
something. I I thought, "Oh, that's for
00:19:17
me."
00:19:17
>> The propaganda didn't work.
00:19:18
>> No, no. We did had the opposite. I
00:19:20
thought that if it's bad, I want I want
00:19:22
some.
00:19:23
>> You probably got the you're probably at
00:19:24
that age where you got the tail end of
00:19:25
that whole reef of madness era.
00:19:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The
00:19:31
where you take this and you turn into a
00:19:32
mad man.
00:19:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Right. That
00:19:36
was that myth was just being blown. It
00:19:38
had been blown by the um in the mid60s
00:19:42
really. Um because LSD was still legal
00:19:46
in in the United States too until about
00:19:48
1968
00:19:50
and 1967 it was summer of the summer of
00:19:54
love. That's when that that was a whole
00:19:57
celebration of LSD
00:20:00
just before it was about to come in
00:20:02
>> uh as as an illegal substance.
00:20:05
>> Yeah. And so I wanted some acid as well.
00:20:08
And I had my first trip um
00:20:12
uh
00:20:13
when I was at university, my first year
00:20:15
at university, California sunshine it
00:20:18
was. And that was coming over from
00:20:21
Augustus Stanley who was producing all
00:20:24
the acid for the hippies in the in
00:20:26
California. And that was being imported
00:20:29
to New Zealand as well, which was
00:20:31
written about by Tom Wolf and u in his
00:20:34
book uh the electric Kool-Aid acid test.
00:20:39
Um and that was about Stanley and his
00:20:41
drugs.
00:20:42
>> And so everyone was using acid because
00:20:44
it was the the mindexpanding drug. It
00:20:47
was an enlightening drug and it and and
00:20:50
Timothy Larry of course he on the east
00:20:52
coast and Ken Keezy on the west coast
00:20:55
were were big in promoting the acid acid
00:21:00
culture and in order to be cool you had
00:21:04
to use acid and that got replaced soon
00:21:08
after by the hard drugs in the hate
00:21:10
ashbury era and also in New Zealand as
00:21:13
well. the the the punishments even for
00:21:16
personal use back then were so steep
00:21:17
that didn't put you off. That didn't
00:21:18
deter you at all.
00:21:19
>> No, no, I didn't care. I didn't No one
00:21:21
thinks they're going to get caught
00:21:22
anyway. And everyone was using it and
00:21:24
you had to be cool and uh you could get
00:21:27
lots of girlfriends.
00:21:28
>> And what about heroin? Uh when did a
00:21:30
heroin um enter your life? And what what
00:21:33
did it bring to your life that was
00:21:34
missing?
00:21:35
>> Oh, nothing. Didn't miss it. Just added
00:21:38
something
00:21:40
cuz it's such a lovely drug, you know.
00:21:41
>> Is it? What's it like? Oh, it's
00:21:43
fantastic.
00:21:44
>> I've um Yeah, I mean it's
00:21:46
>> I mean it's good. I mean, anyone who's
00:21:47
had morphine in a hospital will have
00:21:49
some idea, but they only give you really
00:21:51
light doses in the hospitals, but um but
00:21:54
no, heroin's like morphine. Detal
00:21:57
morphine in fact is what heroine is.
00:21:59
It's a just a refined form of morphine,
00:22:01
which is refined and morphine is a
00:22:03
refined form of opium.
00:22:05
>> Uh which comes from and coding's another
00:22:09
>> refined form of opium. They all come
00:22:10
from they're all opiates. They come from
00:22:13
the opiate from the u the opium poppy.
00:22:17
But so heroin was yeah I wanted to try
00:22:20
some smack u as as soon as I could and
00:22:23
uh it was only when I started selling
00:22:26
marijuana that I managed to get into
00:22:28
that scene because what happened was
00:22:31
that initially the heroin and the no not
00:22:35
heroin the marijuana and the LSD was
00:22:38
being used by the hippies. It was used
00:22:40
by the university sector and by the by
00:22:45
that circle. The criminals were not
00:22:47
involved in it at that stage. But once
00:22:50
the criminals started getting involved
00:22:52
in it as inevitably they would um
00:22:56
because you know I was selling marijuana
00:22:58
out at the um Westfield freezing works
00:23:01
as well. That's where I started off my
00:23:03
dealing with with my mate Mary Chris.
00:23:07
We were both working at the during the
00:23:10
holiday was my holidays uh the
00:23:12
university holidays and I was selling
00:23:14
well all the marries from from Hellabes
00:23:17
and the Mary's at Westfield they all
00:23:19
wanted to try this new drug um marijuana
00:23:23
and so that so that drug using thing
00:23:27
spread from the middle class
00:23:29
intellectual
00:23:31
um group into the working classes
00:23:35
>> and and and also So the lump and
00:23:38
proletariat the criminal classes and
00:23:41
they all started using as well and Terry
00:23:44
Clark was part of that because he got
00:23:46
out of jail uh after serving his 5year
00:23:49
sentence in I think it was 1974
00:23:51
something like that um and he started
00:23:53
selling marijuana and then start and
00:23:56
importing marijuana from Thailand and
00:23:59
then getting cheap heroin and importing
00:24:03
that in large amounts. But at that same
00:24:06
time, a lot of the criminals were
00:24:09
burgling chemist shops, which had really
00:24:13
low security in those days, and they
00:24:15
were getting whole bags full of
00:24:17
morphine, uh pharmaceutical cocaine, um
00:24:21
omnipon, um opioids, omnipom, um
00:24:28
uh what are the other drugs? I can't
00:24:30
remember some of them now, but they were
00:24:32
all painkillers. Oh, pifodine.
00:24:35
>> They were using all that and so they
00:24:38
started shooting up the hard drugs and
00:24:41
that and then that started creeping into
00:24:44
the middle class guys as well.
00:24:45
>> Did you did you start by um smoking it
00:24:48
off foil or did you start by injecting
00:24:50
straight away?
00:24:51
>> Heroine.
00:24:52
>> Yeah.
00:24:53
>> My first taste was morphine intravenous.
00:24:55
Yeah.
00:24:55
>> Right. See that would I I think that
00:24:57
would put most people off. No one likes
00:24:59
needles.
00:25:00
>> Yeah. I I I I didn't mind them.
00:25:03
So, but you were like you were a smart
00:25:05
you were a smart young man at the time
00:25:07
like um you're obviously rebelling
00:25:08
against something but you were um an
00:25:09
anthropology
00:25:11
student um and you went from from that
00:25:13
to heroin dealer in a alarmingly short
00:25:16
period of time like how does that
00:25:18
transition happen? Does it creep up on
00:25:20
you or what?
00:25:20
>> Well, I always like excitement and I've
00:25:22
always been a risk taker.
00:25:23
>> You're just bored easily
00:25:24
>> and I was getting bored. Yeah. I was g
00:25:27
you know the academic life was great and
00:25:29
I and I was doing you know I did a paper
00:25:32
called the sociology of deviance and I
00:25:34
thought yeah well I I don't want to just
00:25:36
study it I want to be it you know so I
00:25:38
started going down to Queen Street to
00:25:41
the Queen's Ferry where the crooks were
00:25:44
hanging out a lot of crims used to hang
00:25:46
around knockabouts used to hang around
00:25:48
the Queen's Ferry and the accidental
00:25:52
two pubs in Vulcan Lane and um and I met
00:25:56
up with Mary Chris there.
00:25:57
>> What nationality was he?
00:25:59
>> He married
00:26:02
just making sure.
00:26:05
>> Yeah,
00:26:07
>> it's a great nickname.
00:26:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and and and there was a
00:26:11
bloke called Twiggy and a bunch, you
00:26:14
know, he was a skinny junkie.
00:26:16
Um and uh we I started dealing with well
00:26:22
with Chris dealing marijuana Buddhist
00:26:25
sticks you know they were coming in
00:26:26
there in bulk from Thailand and um you
00:26:30
know 10 bucks for a stick and that that
00:26:33
stuff was so potent you know a match
00:26:35
head just a match head would get you
00:26:37
stoned. It was really good really good
00:26:39
gear.
00:26:40
>> Oh yeah because 10 10 bucks back then
00:26:41
was a lot of money. Um but but you buy
00:26:43
one of those sticks and it would last
00:26:45
you like how many hits?
00:26:46
>> Oh,
00:26:47
>> like a week.
00:26:47
>> Oh yeah, it depends on how much you use.
00:26:50
But
00:26:50
>> but you know, you didn't need much. But
00:26:52
you could roll up what they call a very
00:26:54
skinny joint called a racehorse and
00:26:56
smoke it like that. But in jail
00:26:59
>> because we had to conserve it. We used
00:27:02
to just make pipes out of a out of a
00:27:05
toilet roll and cut a little hole in it
00:27:08
and then put a a um a foil um a foil top
00:27:14
of it with holes in it and just smoke
00:27:17
like that like a bong and smoke it. And
00:27:20
honestly, a little just a little match
00:27:22
head of that stuff could get you sky
00:27:24
high
00:27:25
>> was really good. You mentioned um a
00:27:28
couple of answers ago you mentioned um
00:27:29
Terry Clark who's um probably better
00:27:31
known as Mr. Asia. Yeah. Um maybe the
00:27:33
most infamous New Zealand drug de dealer
00:27:36
of all time. Um
00:27:38
>> yeah. What was he like? Would you would
00:27:39
you consider him a mate?
00:27:41
>> Well, we were we were friendly and he
00:27:43
liked me, you know.
00:27:44
>> Was he intimidating or
00:27:45
>> No, not at all. He was only a little
00:27:47
guy. They called him and when he was in
00:27:48
we taco they called him sinbad cuz he
00:27:51
looked like sinbad the sailor and then
00:27:54
his short name was sin. They called him
00:27:56
sin which he was sinful you know but um
00:28:00
you know Terry was a um he was a cold
00:28:03
calculating person but I got on well
00:28:06
with him but he you know I mean he would
00:28:08
kill you but you know he would kill you
00:28:11
if you if you're not but if you crossed
00:28:13
him. Yeah
00:28:14
>> but he wasn't a big guy. Did he have big
00:28:16
aspirations at that time?
00:28:18
>> Oh, big. Yeah. Yeah. He was even when he
00:28:20
was in Mount Eden, well, that's where I
00:28:22
met him. You know, he knew of me because
00:28:24
through Doug Wilson because that's who I
00:28:27
was getting my heroin off. It was number
00:28:29
it was it was 90% pure heroin. Number
00:28:32
four grade heroin, the top grade heroin,
00:28:35
pure white powder was very, very good
00:28:37
heroin. You only need a only need a
00:28:40
little like about the size of a match
00:28:42
head in a in a syringe. And uh that was
00:28:46
the danger of it was easy to OD on. Um
00:28:49
so that's why when I was selling I
00:28:51
always gave my customers a little free
00:28:53
taste to show them how much they needed.
00:28:55
Don't use anymore. You'll you'll go
00:28:57
over. But um but Terry Yeah. he was
00:28:59
selling this very very good smack. And I
00:29:02
got I was getting it through Doug Wilson
00:29:04
who was a law student at Oran University
00:29:07
and um and he was working with Terry and
00:29:11
uh and he was a intelligent guy. He'd
00:29:14
already done a a jail sentence for
00:29:16
selling LSD prior to that, but he was
00:29:20
doing a law degree and and it was
00:29:22
selling selling smack and it was through
00:29:25
Doug that I that I got onto that really
00:29:28
good smack, you know.
00:29:30
>> Did Did you ever watch the uh very
00:29:32
popular Underbelly series?
00:29:34
>> I watched some of it. Yeah.
00:29:35
>> Yeah. What did you make of that? The in
00:29:37
particular the one that's um based
00:29:38
around Mr. Asia.
00:29:40
>> Yeah. Oh, well, I only saw a couple of
00:29:42
episodes, so I didn't really form an
00:29:43
opinion,
00:29:44
>> right?
00:29:44
>> You know, but I did see a couple of
00:29:46
them, but it wasn't something I wanted
00:29:48
to I was that interested in really
00:29:49
because I knew the real story, so didn't
00:29:52
really want to watch it for
00:29:53
>> Oh, so it's a great work of fiction.
00:29:55
>> Yeah. Um, you you still talk even I mean
00:29:59
it's been like 45 50 years, whatever it
00:30:01
is, since you've last had heroin, you
00:30:03
still talk about it quite romantically,
00:30:05
don't you?
00:30:06
>> Well, I I did I mean I was using it. I
00:30:09
mean, well, it wasn't 50 years ago they
00:30:11
first had a ping, you know. I mean, I I
00:30:14
used to use a bit of smack um now and
00:30:18
then, you know, right through while I
00:30:20
was using my my writing my PhD, I was
00:30:24
using hammer. Um and from time to time
00:30:28
when I was lecturing, I used to have a
00:30:30
ping as well, have a little blast for
00:30:33
for the whole time sake. And uh and also
00:30:36
I tell you I I had I also when I was
00:30:41
teaching criminology and I was giving
00:30:43
lectures on drug use and so on. I was uh
00:30:47
making sure that I any new drug that was
00:30:49
around I got hold of it and used it you
00:30:52
know. So I was using I used a bit of
00:30:53
ecstasy. I used a bit of methamphetamine
00:30:55
and um all the drugs that were around. I
00:30:59
would always make sure I had a go
00:31:02
so that I knew what I was talking about,
00:31:04
you know.
00:31:06
>> What did you like of of the more recent
00:31:07
drugs like Yeah.
00:31:09
>> Methamphetamine is pretty good.
00:31:10
>> Is it in what way?
00:31:11
>> Oh, it's a great aphrodisiac. It's the
00:31:13
only reason I ever used to use it in
00:31:16
fact was as an aphrodisiac because it it
00:31:19
knocks you around a fair bit you know
00:31:20
but you can have a good night of sex on
00:31:23
it and um and men and women it acts the
00:31:28
same way so you know you can have a good
00:31:31
>> your poor wife she she must be like oh
00:31:33
Greg's on the glass Barbie again. Oh,
00:31:35
no, no, no. I never do. Not since I got
00:31:38
married or since I lo My wife is a total
00:31:41
tea totler. I mean, she would just freak
00:31:43
out. She would have nothing to do with
00:31:45
it, you know. No, no. I I stopped using
00:31:48
that
00:31:49
>> probably about the time
00:31:53
before about the time I met my wife
00:31:55
actually.
00:31:56
>> What out of like um recreational drugs
00:31:58
are incredibly popular now. Like you go
00:32:00
to a festival or something and there's
00:32:02
very few people drinking alcohol. Um the
00:32:04
drugs. Yeah. What did you like? Like
00:32:06
have you tried ketamine?
00:32:07
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:09
>> Ketamine ecstasy.
00:32:10
>> Yeah, I've had ketamine ecstasy.
00:32:12
>> I had ketamine when I broke my leg. They
00:32:14
the ambulance driver gave me a shot of
00:32:18
introvenous ketamine but I tried it once
00:32:21
before as a pill and it blew my bloody
00:32:24
brains out. I didn't actually like it
00:32:25
much, but it was quite quite good when I
00:32:28
broke my hip cuz it it got the pain. It
00:32:31
really it's really effective at reducing
00:32:34
severe pain
00:32:36
>> and uh ecstasy MDMA.
00:32:38
>> Yeah, that's a it's a really good drug.
00:32:40
MDMA I really like that drug.
00:32:43
>> Um but you know I don't use any drugs
00:32:45
now but um I've grown out of it you know
00:32:48
>> but MDMA you know ecstasies
00:32:51
well we used to say it should be it it
00:32:54
should be compulsory. It makes you so
00:32:56
happy.
00:32:58
>> Yeah. How can that be a bad thing?
00:33:00
>> And it doesn't have really bad side
00:33:02
effects either. The next day you feel
00:33:04
you feel a bit a little bit washed out
00:33:05
cuz you your endorphins get used up. But
00:33:09
you it only lasts a day is not really
00:33:11
you don't have a real bad hangover on on
00:33:14
ecstasy. It's a pretty good drug really.
00:33:17
>> So chapter six of your book is called
00:33:19
Busted. Um I've got a line from that. In
00:33:22
1975 I was arrested and sent to jail.
00:33:25
That was my lucky break.
00:33:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it really was.
00:33:30
>> Well, because
00:33:32
I was using heroin more and more often.
00:33:34
Heroin will grab you.
00:33:36
>> You know, I'm not an addictive kind of a
00:33:38
person. It's very hard to get me
00:33:40
addicted. But I could have got addicted
00:33:42
to heroin because it's automatically
00:33:44
addictive. Whereas methamphetamine,
00:33:47
MDMA, um, gambling, alcohol, they're not
00:33:50
automatically addictive, but cigarettes
00:33:53
are, and so is heroin and morphine.
00:33:56
They're automatically addictive.
00:33:57
physically addictive as opposed to being
00:34:00
psychologically addictive.
00:34:01
>> And um and you and I was going to get h
00:34:05
I was going to get hooked on heroin
00:34:07
because I started using it by the time I
00:34:09
got busted. I was using it five nights a
00:34:11
week,
00:34:12
>> you know, I I was psychologically
00:34:15
addicted to it and a physical addiction
00:34:17
would have would have followed because
00:34:19
you get to the point it's like being in
00:34:21
love. It's very much the same feeling as
00:34:25
being in love and that is you feel like
00:34:28
you can't be happy without it
00:34:30
>> and uh and that's a bad way to feel. Um
00:34:35
and and and love is a form of addiction
00:34:37
as well. You know where you become
00:34:39
addicted to some woman.
00:34:41
>> How viv how vividly do you remember that
00:34:42
bust?
00:34:43
>> Oh pretty clearly.
00:34:45
You know that warm that warm glow that
00:34:49
you get and especially if you mix it
00:34:51
with a bit of cocaine which is called a
00:34:53
speedball. I mean that's just an amazing
00:34:55
feeling cuz the speed ball gives you a
00:34:58
mighty rush you a mighty rush and
00:35:01
followed by the mellow stone and the
00:35:04
warm feeling like you've been bathed in
00:35:07
oil. You know it's a lovely feeling and
00:35:10
that's what gets you. And uh you think
00:35:13
when you first use Mac, you know, oh
00:35:17
that was pretty good. That was lovely.
00:35:19
And then the more you use it, the more
00:35:21
you like it
00:35:22
>> and the more you crave for that feeling.
00:35:25
And after you first time you use it, you
00:35:27
think, "Oh, I can take it or leave it.
00:35:29
What are they talking about?" You know,
00:35:30
right? But then you two or three. It's
00:35:33
like it's like a woman, you know? You
00:35:35
you you go out with her and you, well,
00:35:37
she's pretty nice. I quite like her. But
00:35:39
you can fall in love with her over a
00:35:41
period of weeks and uh and heroin's a
00:35:44
bit like that.
00:35:46
And um and so in the end you become
00:35:48
addicted to it. And uh and that's the
00:35:51
way that's where I was headed with the
00:35:53
with the heroin in the in 1975. And when
00:35:57
I got busted that broke the broke the
00:36:00
chain, you know.
00:36:01
>> Yeah. So you you got busted maybe a
00:36:03
kilometer from here. Uh a place in
00:36:05
Ponson.
00:36:06
>> Yeah. Leighton Street.
00:36:07
>> Yeah.
00:36:08
>> Six. Number six Leighton Street.
00:36:09
>> What what h what happened that day?
00:36:12
>> Well, what had happened was that I had
00:36:15
been approached by a guy called Luxy Lee
00:36:17
and another guy called Lee Cricket who's
00:36:19
now dead from an overdose. Um, and Lee
00:36:23
was one of my customers
00:36:25
and he came around to my place one day
00:36:28
with Luxie who I knew of by reputation
00:36:31
but not I didn't know him as a p as a
00:36:34
personally and they said they wanted to
00:36:37
can I get them an ounce of smack or
00:36:40
might have been a couple of ounces they
00:36:42
and I uh I went round to um uh t to uh
00:36:48
Doug's place cuz he was selling and I
00:36:50
said, you know, can you give me a can
00:36:52
you get me an ounce? And uh and he said,
00:36:56
"Yeah." So I I paid him a,000 bucks for
00:37:00
it.
00:37:01
And um and I told Luxy and Lee that they
00:37:05
could have it for 1,100. So And I didn't
00:37:09
normally deal in ounces, you know, I was
00:37:11
only dealing 10 $30 caps. That's what I
00:37:14
was dealing with. So on this occasion,
00:37:16
it was an exception. And um so they went
00:37:20
away to do the deal and then came back
00:37:23
to me uh about two about an hour and a
00:37:26
half later when I was starting to get
00:37:28
nervous. And I said, "Have you have you
00:37:30
have you got the money?" And they said,
00:37:32
"No, we haven't the deal hasn't been
00:37:35
done yet." And I said, "Well, where's
00:37:37
the smack?" And he said, "Well, it's
00:37:39
round at Leighton Street at Getty's
00:37:41
place." And I knew of Getty by
00:37:43
reputation as well. He was a German guy.
00:37:46
and um and he was a junkie and I thought
00:37:49
oh for [ __ ] you know bloody they were
00:37:53
using my my [ __ ] and I and Giddy will be
00:37:57
hooking into it while you're there and
00:37:58
and I thought well I'm going to go round
00:38:01
there and they they can either do the
00:38:02
deal or I'll take the smack away with me
00:38:05
you know so I went round there with Luxy
00:38:07
and uh and the deal was going to be done
00:38:10
it's just about going to be done on and
00:38:11
so and and Jetty by that time have taken
00:38:14
over it and he was testing it, you know.
00:38:18
I thought, "Oh, yeah.
00:38:20
>> Uh yeah." And uh so he was stoned and um
00:38:24
and then suddenly uh suddenly the bloody
00:38:28
the doors all exploded and and the
00:38:30
coppers came was running through the
00:38:32
place. They really they'd been st they
00:38:34
had the place totally staked out. There
00:38:37
was coppers down the road pretending to
00:38:39
paint houses. They were up ladders
00:38:41
dressed in overalls pretending to paint
00:38:42
houses. There was a there was a van down
00:38:45
the street with people under underneath
00:38:47
it trying to fix the engine and they
00:38:49
were coppers as well. There were a whole
00:38:51
bunch of coppers and there was a van
00:38:52
full of coppers. There was about oh must
00:38:55
have been about 15 of them because they
00:38:57
thought it was a major bust. They
00:38:59
thought I was a big dealer and so the
00:39:03
pano who was the detective who' set the
00:39:05
whole thing up thought that he was going
00:39:07
to be uh busting a Mr. Big of Aland. All
00:39:12
they got old. All they got was me.
00:39:15
>> Well, what are those uh what are those
00:39:17
first few days like after losing your
00:39:18
freedom?
00:39:19
>> Oh, terrible. I felt, you know, my whole
00:39:22
life exploded, you know, or imploded. My
00:39:26
whole life, you know, especially when
00:39:27
when I got busted. Oh, and then of going
00:39:31
into Mount Eden prison, which is a, you
00:39:33
know, an old Victorian jail first um
00:39:37
was designed in the 1880s on the old
00:39:40
British jail system, the old prison, the
00:39:43
old u um British model. And um yeah,
00:39:50
like stepping back in time and going
00:39:52
into the mount with the echoing doors
00:39:54
and the uh the smell of wax and
00:39:59
disinfectant. That was a smell you got
00:40:01
inside there. Wax and disinfectant and
00:40:03
it's you know the walls were made of
00:40:05
stone and the floors were made of stone
00:40:07
and and uh
00:40:09
>> miserable.
00:40:10
>> Yeah. Oh yeah, it was real.
00:40:14
A real, you know, I've been living in
00:40:18
Oakuckland all my life and I'd never
00:40:20
know that there was they had this
00:40:21
dungeon. You driven past Mount Eden, but
00:40:24
all you see is the walls and the
00:40:25
ramparts, you know, but inside it's
00:40:28
really was like an old dungeon. How
00:40:30
>> How long does it take to to um accept
00:40:33
and adapt and, you know, just be like,
00:40:34
"Okay, this is my new normal."
00:40:39
Um
00:40:42
probably well you do it by stages it
00:40:45
doesn't sort of happen
00:40:47
>> it just gradually grows on you I'd say
00:40:50
by three after 3 years you're fully
00:40:54
prisonized you're fully fully
00:40:58
institutionalized after 3 years but
00:41:01
after 3 months you've pretty much come
00:41:04
to accept the routine and then you
00:41:07
gradually slip into the uh existing way
00:41:10
of thinking.
00:41:12
>> Um yes, that line I read before, I was
00:41:14
arrested and sent to jail. That was my
00:41:15
lucky break. How how long did it take
00:41:17
you to
00:41:19
think it was a lucky break or
00:41:23
I wasn't until I got out of
00:41:30
I wasn't very happy. I can tell you.
00:41:32
>> No. No. Um and and you know when of
00:41:37
course on your when I was on I was on
00:41:38
remanded in custody for 5 months.
00:41:41
>> Um
00:41:42
until you tried and sentenced you still
00:41:45
think
00:41:46
>> there's a good chance I'm not going to
00:41:49
I'm going to get out because they didn't
00:41:50
actually have a lot of evidence on me.
00:41:52
You know they didn't have a lot of
00:41:54
evidence on me.
00:41:56
>> I was convicted on that false evidence
00:41:58
by that phantom detective. You know,
00:42:01
they got the detective who who lied
00:42:03
through his teeth. That was what I was
00:42:05
convicted on.
00:42:06
>> Yeah.
00:42:07
>> What, as I say in the book, I don't
00:42:09
particularly hold it against them.
00:42:12
I don't like coppers who lie. I mean,
00:42:14
they're supposed to be upholding the
00:42:15
law. They're not allowed to break the
00:42:16
law. You You're not allowed to break the
00:42:19
law to enforce the law, but that's what
00:42:20
they did. Um, and and I think the judge
00:42:24
was pretty much in it as well, you I
00:42:26
mean, they all they're all part of the
00:42:28
whole
00:42:28
>> the whole charade.
00:42:31
But um
00:42:34
uh but I got I got comm and in the end I
00:42:38
dropped my appeal because I was I was
00:42:40
just fed up with the being in limbo
00:42:43
>> and so I and and I accepted that I was
00:42:46
going to do my lagging and get out and
00:42:49
try and make the best of it.
00:42:51
So that moment that you're standing in
00:42:53
in in court in the dock and you get
00:42:55
sentenced to 7 and 1/2 years prison.
00:42:58
>> Yeah.
00:42:59
>> Are your parents both there? Who who's
00:43:01
there?
00:43:01
>> Yeah, they were there.
00:43:02
>> [ __ ] What's that like?
00:43:04
>> Well, getting sentenced wasn't so bad
00:43:05
cuz I knew how long I was going to get
00:43:07
pretty much from what other other people
00:43:09
have been getting. Um
00:43:12
um so I but the real bad moment was the
00:43:16
conviction. they can guilty. When it's
00:43:18
guilty,
00:43:20
>> I just felt like I felt like the blood
00:43:23
had drained out of my body because there
00:43:25
was all hope gone.
00:43:27
>> I knew then at that moment how long I
00:43:30
was going to get.
00:43:31
>> I knew I was going to get 6 to 8 years
00:43:33
and I got seven and a half. So I I knew
00:43:36
and I was only 23. I know just turned 24
00:43:40
by that stage. I knew my 30s were gone.
00:43:44
Um that's and you know when you're 24 30
00:43:47
seems old
00:43:48
>> and so you think you're going to be in
00:43:50
you're in forever you can't see the end
00:43:52
of it and um and mom mom mom and dad
00:43:59
were there and they said my face drained
00:44:02
my face I went white and we daggered
00:44:06
down the spiral staircase with the um
00:44:11
handcuffs on and down the stair is we
00:44:14
went to the uh holding room to go back
00:44:17
to prison
00:44:18
>> and that's when you realize this is
00:44:21
real. It's really going to happen and
00:44:23
and you're going to have to make some
00:44:25
adjustments
00:44:26
>> that that ride in the van like do you do
00:44:28
you do you cry? How are you feeling?
00:44:30
>> No, I didn't cry.
00:44:31
>> No.
00:44:31
>> No. But you do feel like pretty stink,
00:44:35
you know? You feel pretty just
00:44:39
wiped out, you know.
00:44:41
>> This is it. This is real. How was how
00:44:43
was your mental health? Did you ever
00:44:44
contemplate taking your own life at that
00:44:46
point?
00:44:46
>> No, I wasn't. It was the the time when I
00:44:49
when I when I came closest to being
00:44:52
broken was when I was in class in
00:44:55
classification at perimeal prison. That
00:44:58
was the we went out to Perry the next
00:45:00
day. Um and the environment in class was
00:45:05
so bad. There was so much tension in
00:45:08
that in that cell block. Um, and we were
00:45:11
locked up 23. You see the when I was on
00:45:14
remand, I was locked up 20 hours a day.
00:45:16
In class, you're locked up 20 hours a
00:45:18
day. And when you're out, there's so
00:45:21
much tension. There's young young
00:45:26
no hope, young buggers, um, trying to
00:45:29
young ball busters trying to make names
00:45:32
from them and standing over people and
00:45:34
there was always that tension and that
00:45:37
really got to my head. It really gets to
00:45:40
your head when you got nothing to do but
00:45:41
think
00:45:42
>> and and listen to people being abused
00:45:45
and stood over and and being bullied
00:45:48
around and it didn't happen to me but
00:45:50
you know just it was just a horrible
00:45:53
horrible horrible environment and uh it
00:45:57
was then that I I felt I was going to
00:46:01
lose the plot and I was going to break
00:46:03
that's when I went to the chief officer
00:46:05
to John Jackson oh Sid Ward I think it
00:46:08
was he was the deputy superintendent.
00:46:10
Yeah, I was I went to Sid Ward and that
00:46:12
both him John Jackson who was the chief
00:46:14
chief officer. No, he was the first
00:46:16
officer and um and deputy superintendent
00:46:20
um Sid Ward, they knew exactly what I
00:46:22
was talking about,
00:46:23
>> you know, I mean, they really were
00:46:25
experienced prison officers and Hob and
00:46:28
uh Sid Ward said to me, "Right," and I
00:46:32
told him exactly what was happening in
00:46:34
my brain. He said, "All right," he said,
00:46:36
"I'll I'll send you over. you could go
00:46:38
over to a block tomorrow. Just like
00:46:40
that. Just like that. And you know when
00:46:44
he said I could get I said he said where
00:46:46
do you want to? I said I want to go
00:46:47
anywhere. I want to get out of class.
00:46:50
You know put me in the pound. Put me in
00:46:51
solitary. I I can't handle anymore. So
00:46:54
they put me over and and suddenly
00:46:58
it all disappeared. You know all the
00:47:00
stress everything just disappeared in an
00:47:03
in an instant.
00:47:04
>> Wow. you know, and I went over to Ablock
00:47:07
and Pete Atinson, my mate, who's still
00:47:10
my very good mate, um, met me. He came
00:47:14
over to me and said, "You, you know,
00:47:16
where are you from?" And he gave me that
00:47:18
name, Dream Dealer,
00:47:20
>> and, uh,
00:47:21
>> what did that mean?
00:47:22
>> Dream dealer uh, selling powdered
00:47:25
dreams.
00:47:26
>> You know, morphine. Morpheus is morphine
00:47:30
comes from the god of Morpheus, the god,
00:47:32
the Greek god of dreams. and uh heroin
00:47:35
is refined morphine.
00:47:38
>> That's why he called me the powdered
00:47:40
dream dealer.
00:47:40
>> Yeah, that's a great nickname. And you
00:47:42
were still using in in jail. You tell a
00:47:44
story in there about there there's a a
00:47:46
syringe um that was just kept in like a
00:47:48
a sports shoe that everyone used and
00:47:50
everyone got hepatitis.
00:47:51
>> The A block syringe.
00:47:53
>> That is disgusting. Everybody got
00:47:56
hepatitis
00:47:58
and we used to hide it down in the
00:48:00
workshops and it used to come up wrapped
00:48:03
up in a piece of cloth hidden between
00:48:05
the cheeks of Whoopy's assly
00:48:09
and we'd wash it out wash it out in cold
00:48:12
water. Rinse it out in cold water in the
00:48:15
interest of hygiene.
00:48:19
>> Surely no no high is worth like you're a
00:48:21
smart guy. Surely there's some common
00:48:23
sense that kicks in and say, "Do do I
00:48:25
want to do I want to get high? I like
00:48:27
the feeling of it, but I know that the
00:48:28
syringe has been in Whoopy's ass."
00:48:33
Yeah. Oh boy.
00:48:36
>> Unbelievable.
00:48:37
>> You look at it, but you know, you're 24
00:48:39
and you you're just bored. You got time.
00:48:42
>> You're bored. You're living for the
00:48:43
moment. And you're part of the scene
00:48:45
that there was about six of us on the
00:48:47
landing. It was 12 of us on the on the
00:48:49
landing and six of us we were users and
00:48:52
and we all used to share that needle and
00:48:55
the bloody the need the needle itself
00:48:58
was so big it used to get a hook on it
00:49:01
you know and it would call a hook you
00:49:03
know because it's those syringes those
00:49:06
needles are really fine and they're made
00:49:08
of really soft metal
00:49:10
>> and you'd get a hook and you stick it in
00:49:13
it pop bang and we pull it out and
00:49:15
there'd be a hunk of flesh stuck on end
00:49:17
of it. Tiny.
00:49:20
Bloody hell.
00:49:22
>> You're lucky. This is just a few years
00:49:23
before the AIDS epidemic.
00:49:25
>> We used to try and sharpen it up on a on
00:49:27
a you know the striker of a matchbox.
00:49:30
Try and sharpen it up and get the root
00:49:32
of that burr that little hook
00:49:34
>> and then sh and then sharpen it. Oh god.
00:49:38
>> So when you're incarcerated, what does a
00:49:40
good day look like and what does a bad
00:49:41
day look like?
00:49:42
>> Oh bad days and good days are pretty
00:49:45
much the same really. A bad day would be
00:49:47
if someone had if there'd been a fight
00:49:49
in the block and there was tension and
00:49:51
the block was splitting um siding up
00:49:55
with one or other of the combatants.
00:49:59
That was a bad day when you got tension
00:50:01
in the block.
00:50:02
>> You just feel it in the air. You feel it
00:50:04
in the air and the everyone's tense and
00:50:07
everyone's looking at each other and
00:50:08
wondering
00:50:12
who's going to be next and you know how
00:50:14
are we going to what's what's going to
00:50:16
happen and the uncertainty going on cuz
00:50:21
there's only 48 men in the block and you
00:50:23
all know each other and
00:50:24
>> and some of them are in from pretty
00:50:26
violent crimes and that's a you know you
00:50:28
get that might last three or four days
00:50:30
and then someone will
00:50:34
offer a a olive branch at someone else
00:50:37
and
00:50:38
>> and normally invite them in for a smoke,
00:50:41
you know, and smoke a joint together
00:50:44
like a peace pipe and
00:50:46
>> suddenly the tension goes away and
00:50:47
everyone's sort of laughing nervously
00:50:50
and and uh things get back to normal
00:50:54
>> and that's a good day in jail. Um when
00:50:57
there's no tension
00:50:58
>> or when you got some dope and when you
00:51:00
got some smacking. We I mean we had a
00:51:02
good week that you know when I got that
00:51:06
I think it was probably
00:51:09
just about an ounce of heroin into
00:51:11
>> Wow.
00:51:11
>> Uh into uh how to that was a good week
00:51:15
>> all of us all using for every night for
00:51:17
a week.
00:51:18
>> That was that was a good that was a good
00:51:20
week.
00:51:21
>> Yeah. I think um it's fairly strict now
00:51:23
and quite hard to get any sort of
00:51:24
contraband into the uh the prisons. How
00:51:27
how was it done back then?
00:51:28
>> Much harder. Uh in those days we would
00:51:31
um we would smuggle out a a half a cigar
00:51:35
tube. You know, cigars come in those
00:51:37
aluminium tubes.
00:51:39
>> We'd get hold one of them.
00:51:41
>> Um and maybe our visitor would bring in
00:51:44
a cigar tube for us
00:51:46
>> and uh and you'd stick it up your bum.
00:51:50
In fact, what they'd bring in, you'd get
00:51:52
your visitor to bring to get a cigar
00:51:56
tube and put all the dope inside the
00:51:58
cigar tube, but you could only f fit
00:52:00
half of one up your rectum cuz a whole
00:52:03
cigar tube wouldn't fit all the way up
00:52:04
the rectum until it cuz your rectum's
00:52:07
got a bend in it, you know. So, you'd
00:52:10
get it to cut cut the cigar tube in half
00:52:12
and get the plastic cap in the end of it
00:52:15
and then fill it up with um
00:52:19
fill it up with marijuana or or
00:52:22
pithodine or palium or omnipom or
00:52:25
whatever you know those opiates or LSD
00:52:29
and then they'd hand it to you in the in
00:52:33
the visiting room and then you'd have a
00:52:36
whole cut in the side of in the in the
00:52:39
crutch of your pants. We never wore
00:52:40
underpants. And then you just slide it
00:52:44
up your bum. You sit on the end. You had
00:52:46
to sit on the end of the of the chair
00:52:49
and slip it up your rectum that way. You
00:52:52
know when but you'd have your bum
00:52:55
already greased up. You'd have to be
00:52:57
already greased up otherwise it wouldn't
00:52:58
go up.
00:53:01
And one and one one one occasion
00:53:05
I didn't have any Vaseline
00:53:09
and so I used deep heat but that was a
00:53:13
mistake. Felt like I had a [ __ ] poker
00:53:17
stuck up me bum. A red old poker.
00:53:23
>> Oh my god. These stories are wild.
00:53:26
>> Yeah. Um
00:53:30
you were quite a um so you were in he
00:53:32
was in a different wing to you but Dean
00:53:34
Wickliffe who's um um maybe done more
00:53:36
time than any other living New
00:53:38
Zealander. Uh he was in Padma remember
00:53:41
at the same time as you in 1976 and he
00:53:43
he's one of the few people that has
00:53:44
escaped. What even though he was in a
00:53:47
different wing like what what happens
00:53:49
when you're inside and something like
00:53:50
that happens? Is it the is it the talk
00:53:52
of the whole building? Oh, I tell you
00:53:54
what, it was funny. It was funny as
00:53:56
hell. What happened was Dean was in DB
00:54:00
block in his first escape and he got
00:54:03
over the wall and he was and he and he
00:54:06
climbed the managed to climb up the
00:54:08
fence and over the fence. But what was
00:54:11
funny about it was that the the siren
00:54:14
went off. The siren went off and
00:54:17
everybody,
00:54:19
all the screws ran down the corridor to
00:54:22
the sallyport that leads to the end of
00:54:25
the jail, to the e exit of the jail. And
00:54:29
as they all ran out, there was a screw
00:54:31
um a a divisional officer called Foster
00:54:34
who was the DO of classification and
00:54:37
Hanari Jews who was doing uh 12 years
00:54:41
for rape. Uh, he was a real comedian, a
00:54:44
funny bastard. And Henry started running
00:54:48
with the screws and he ran and he was
00:54:54
and and the whole Foster standing
00:54:56
standing at the at the gate and he's
00:54:58
going, "No, you don't. No, you don't.
00:55:01
No, you don't Jews. Oh, no you don't
00:55:04
Jews." And and Henry's going ducking
00:55:07
either way like he's like he's on the
00:55:08
football field trying to get around. And
00:55:10
it was just so funny. It was absolute
00:55:14
hilarious. And uh and Henry was
00:55:17
pretending he was trying to run out with
00:55:19
the screws.
00:55:21
It was so funny. And old Foster, he was
00:55:25
an old, you know, old Pommy guy. He was
00:55:27
Foster. He goes, "No, you don't, Jews.
00:55:29
No, you don't. Oh, no. No, don't try
00:55:32
that one, Jews." You know, it was really
00:55:34
funny. So, it seems like there's moments
00:55:37
like there's there's moments of um like
00:55:39
just pure joy and amongst the bleakness.
00:55:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Henry was
00:55:45
funny.
00:55:45
>> Yeah.
00:55:46
>> Henry was real funny.
00:55:47
>> And you did so much writing. Like you
00:55:50
wrote thousands and thousands. You wrote
00:55:51
prison diaries and you wrote a thesis.
00:55:53
You wrote thousands of pages while
00:55:54
you're in there.
00:55:55
>> Yeah.
00:55:56
>> I wrote about a thousand p about a
00:55:58
thousand words a day in my diary. They
00:56:01
were full scap 100 leaf diaries and I'd
00:56:05
fill them up every few months. Oh, I
00:56:08
ended up with a probably 20 I think 20
00:56:11
volumes.
00:56:13
>> Yeah.
00:56:14
>> So, it's so it's almost like there's two
00:56:16
there's two different versions of you.
00:56:17
There's this this guy that's a like a
00:56:20
you know addicted to um the wild side,
00:56:23
but then you've got this um I don't know
00:56:25
this sort of guide in you that like lets
00:56:27
you know you need to do some something
00:56:28
productive with your time.
00:56:29
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Hell yeah. Because when I
00:56:31
first went to jail, you know, and I knew
00:56:35
going to get out with a B, I already had
00:56:38
a BA, you know, but a BA is not worth
00:56:40
anything.
00:56:41
>> Bugger all.
00:56:41
>> Bugger all, you know, and I get out, I'm
00:56:45
going to get out at the age of 30, which
00:56:46
I think is an old man in those days
00:56:48
because what am I going to do? My life's
00:56:51
buggered. I'm finished. My whole life
00:56:53
has ended, you know. So I thought, you
00:56:56
know, in in my first few weeks on
00:56:58
remand, I started making plans. If I get
00:57:02
convicted, what am I going to do? And so
00:57:04
as soon as I got convicted, I started
00:57:06
thinking, right, I've got to try and do
00:57:09
an MA in jail.
00:57:11
>> Um because I don't want to get out with
00:57:14
just a BA. I've got to try and make
00:57:16
something of this bloody I knew I was
00:57:18
going to do of the seven and a half, I
00:57:20
knew I was going to do five. And because
00:57:23
in those days there was the parole
00:57:24
system was different. You had to do 2/3
00:57:27
you see of your sentence. So 5 years is
00:57:31
2/3 of 7 and a half. I knew I was going
00:57:32
to do five give or take a month or so.
00:57:35
And um so I knew how long I was going to
00:57:38
do so I could plan out and which what
00:57:41
you can't do now with the open parole
00:57:43
system. You can't plan out how long
00:57:45
you're going to do cuz you don't know
00:57:46
cuz you're going to come up for parole
00:57:48
after one/ird.
00:57:50
But anyway, I knew I was going to do
00:57:51
five. So, I planned out and managed to
00:57:54
get permission from Jack Hobson, who I'm
00:57:57
eternally grateful
00:57:59
for, you know, for for giving me
00:58:02
full-time studies and allowing to me to
00:58:04
do something to make something of my
00:58:07
life. And and if it hadn't been for Jack
00:58:09
Hobson, the superintendent of perimeal
00:58:11
prison, a wonderful bloke, a terrific
00:58:13
humanitarian, I would never have been
00:58:17
able to do what I did and I wouldn't
00:58:19
have become a university professor.
00:58:22
So I made those plans then. Uh so but I
00:58:26
I also like having a bit of fun. I
00:58:28
compartmentalize my life. People, you
00:58:30
know, all work and no play makes Greg a
00:58:33
dull boy.
00:58:37
What what's it like being um articulate
00:58:39
and intelligent in jail? Was it easier
00:58:41
or harder or and
00:58:43
>> well that was interesting because when I
00:58:46
first came in I was still in that
00:58:48
intellectual mode and when I started
00:58:52
debating
00:58:53
I started debating like an academic and
00:58:56
the guys the old hands there they said
00:59:00
look you got to you you've got to come
00:59:02
down and start get rid of that way of
00:59:06
and I used to write my letters like that
00:59:08
too academically and like a bit pompous
00:59:11
or something.
00:59:12
>> You're sort of an academic, you know,
00:59:13
for I don't know the way they write and
00:59:17
talk and uh not pompous, but it's just
00:59:19
the way they write and talk cuz that's
00:59:21
their culture. And so I had to start
00:59:25
thinking like a ordinary person and
00:59:27
writing like and it was Stan Rangy who
00:59:30
was a lifer up there who said look you
00:59:33
know and and talk to me about you know
00:59:36
and I watched how they debated you know
00:59:38
I thought yeah that's the right that's
00:59:40
the way to do it and so I started
00:59:43
writing and thinking and as I'm talking
00:59:46
now you know I was in that academic
00:59:48
world
00:59:50
but I'm not like in that anymore I never
00:59:52
have been since I got out. You know,
00:59:54
I've always been like I am now.
00:59:56
>> And um
00:59:59
and I started writing
01:00:02
my letters. I started practicing my
01:00:04
writing by writing letters in a in a
01:00:07
really basic way and uh and u practicing
01:00:12
my writing skills that way and my and my
01:00:14
debating skills. So when you say what's
01:00:16
it like being an acade what it was like
01:00:18
was that I was just an ordinary bloke in
01:00:22
the jail and no different from anyone
01:00:25
else but I was studying and they the
01:00:28
inmates liked it or you know respected
01:00:30
it they they used to when I was studying
01:00:34
it during the day they'd they'd turn
01:00:38
down their radios they you know oh and
01:00:41
they'd bring me a cup of tea at Smokco
01:00:43
time knock on just on my door. Excuse
01:00:46
me, Dream Dealer. Do you want a Would
01:00:48
you like a cup of tea? Thanks, mate.
01:00:50
Yeah, sure. Yeah, mate. And they'd bring
01:00:52
me in a cup of tea and u and they'd keep
01:00:55
their keep their radios down and all
01:00:58
that, you know, so that I could study.
01:01:00
They were fantastic. And the screws were
01:01:02
amazing as well. You know, the screws
01:01:04
were the same. They knew I was studying
01:01:06
and they and they just come and they'd
01:01:08
knock on my door when they wanted to do
01:01:10
a cell search. Excuse me, new bolt. Uh,
01:01:13
excreg
01:01:15
actually cuz we're all on firstname
01:01:17
terms up there. Um, we were firstname
01:01:20
terms with the screws and they and
01:01:22
they'd say, "Excuse me, Greg. Mind if we
01:01:24
had have a look around?" I said, "Oh,
01:01:26
yeah, sure, mister. I'll just wait
01:01:27
outside." And they'd, you know, look
01:01:29
around and lift my papers up because my
01:01:32
cell was a mess. There was papers
01:01:33
strewning all over the place because I
01:01:35
was writing my PhD, my MA. and and then
01:01:38
they'd say, "Oh," or they'd sit down
01:01:41
there, they'd just read my play a
01:01:43
playboy or something. You know, they
01:01:45
were really good. They were fantastic
01:01:47
people. Those screws I got, you know, I
01:01:50
it was a wonderful environment parame.
01:01:54
So, there was a hell of a sense of
01:01:55
community
01:01:57
um among the inmates and and the screws
01:02:00
were always polite. It was always please
01:02:02
and thank you and we were pleased and
01:02:04
thank you to the screws. It was great.
01:02:06
We had tensions from time to time, but
01:02:08
for the most part, it was a really,
01:02:10
really benign environment.
01:02:13
>> Yeah, it was great. It was a good place
01:02:15
to live in and everybody love everybody.
01:02:18
>> It was a new building at the time as
01:02:19
well, wasn't it?
01:02:20
>> Pretty new. Yeah, it would been opened
01:02:21
in 1969, so it only a few years old. And
01:02:24
it was it was the most modern when it
01:02:26
was when it was built. It was the most
01:02:28
most modern penal institution in the
01:02:31
world. It was most advanced, most
01:02:33
secure. It was a really good good jail
01:02:36
and and guys didn't want to leave. I
01:02:38
mean it's maximum security. They didn't
01:02:40
want to go to lower security because
01:02:42
they wouldn't have such good conditions.
01:02:44
The food was good. The food was really
01:02:46
good
01:02:47
>> because the inmates were part of this
01:02:49
whole ethic. You know, we've got to look
01:02:52
after each other. So the inmates would
01:02:54
cook good food and the and the and the
01:02:58
rations were good. We got it wasn't
01:03:00
later on they they they started cutting
01:03:03
back on the food. They the quality of
01:03:05
food in prison now is crap compared to
01:03:07
what it was in those days. We had really
01:03:10
we used to get bacon and eggs twice a
01:03:12
week for breakfast.
01:03:14
>> We got pudding pudding dessert every
01:03:16
night.
01:03:17
>> Every night. And and um Oh, the food was
01:03:21
was really good and perimeal and it was
01:03:22
the best. And they used to bake their
01:03:24
own bread. Stan Rangi was the baker and
01:03:27
uh he used to beautiful bread, fresh
01:03:31
warm bread every day, fresh bread,
01:03:34
because he'd be up at, you know, 2 or
01:03:36
3:00 in the morning cooking, making the
01:03:38
bread for breakfast.
01:03:40
>> Oh, yeah. Gee, the food was really good.
01:03:43
>> Wow. Yeah. You completed a thesis in
01:03:45
there on the social organization of Puma
01:03:48
prison that earned you first class
01:03:50
honors. What was the social organization
01:03:52
of that prison 50 years ago?
01:03:54
The social organization of prison of
01:03:57
that prison was unique in the in the
01:04:00
annals of maxim. I never in all of the
01:04:03
readings that I did and I I read
01:04:06
everything that was available about
01:04:08
prison social organization when I wrote
01:04:10
that that MA was 450
01:04:14
pages long. It was massive for an MA.
01:04:17
Massive. And um I never come across
01:04:21
another prison which was like permal. It
01:04:23
was absolutely unique. Um and it was a
01:04:28
jail where there was no hierarchy. No,
01:04:32
zero hierarchy. Some people had more
01:04:35
prestige than others if they were good
01:04:37
touch players or good crash players or
01:04:38
so on. But basically everyone was the
01:04:41
same. Even the child molesters, even the
01:04:44
child molesters had equal status to
01:04:47
everybody else in that jail. And that
01:04:49
was part of the ethic of solidarity
01:04:51
which the old inmates brought to the
01:04:53
prison. And um standing over standing
01:04:57
over was just not permitted. There was
01:04:59
one young fellow came in. He was a
01:05:01
rapist and he bashed up a guy called
01:05:03
Tulsley who was this child molester. And
01:05:07
um I can remember his name was Lance and
01:05:11
Lance had bashed up and slapped around
01:05:13
Tulsley and you know what one of the old
01:05:16
guys his name was John Aulio Smith he
01:05:19
was a tongen he came up and he said
01:05:22
Lance he said don't you ever do that
01:05:25
again he said if you ever touch that guy
01:05:28
again you are going to answer to me do
01:05:30
you understand you leave him alone he's
01:05:33
no different from you you're a rapist
01:05:36
you And that was it. And that was the
01:05:39
way it was. You just didn't do it. You
01:05:43
didn't stand over people.
01:05:45
>> All right. So, the mentality is like
01:05:47
we're all crumbs.
01:05:48
>> We're all criminals. We're all equal and
01:05:50
we're all living together,
01:05:51
>> you know, and uh if you were a KN, it
01:05:54
was a bit different.
01:05:55
>> You know, the KNS you couldn't knock.
01:05:58
Everyone like you had to stand together.
01:06:02
There was on one occasion I remember we
01:06:05
were in a someone we got the dinner our
01:06:09
dinner and someone said the meat's off
01:06:12
and I tasted it. There was nothing wrong
01:06:14
with the meat. No, the meat's off. He
01:06:18
throws his food in the bin.
01:06:22
All right, we'll throw our food in the
01:06:24
bin.
01:06:26
We s we're not moving. The meat's off.
01:06:28
We're throwing it
01:06:31
Hobson goes, "All right, all right." And
01:06:35
he cooked it. We all got a new meal.
01:06:37
Sausages. It was sausages. And then we'
01:06:42
thrown our dessert out as well. We want
01:06:45
a new dessert.
01:06:47
Hobson, you're not getting a dessert.
01:06:52
All right.
01:06:56
All right. Um, another high-profile
01:06:59
event
01:06:59
>> and we all knew there was nothing wrong
01:07:00
with the food, but we all had to stick
01:07:02
together,
01:07:03
>> right?
01:07:04
>> Yeah.
01:07:04
>> [ __ ] Different different time, eh?
01:07:06
>> Um, Arthur Alan Thomas, a very very
01:07:09
high-profile New Zealander. Um,
01:07:11
wrongfully convicted of the the killing
01:07:13
of Harvey and Janette Crew.
01:07:14
>> Harvey and Janette Crew. Yeah.
01:07:16
>> Yeah. So, you you were mates with him.
01:07:18
You your paths crossed.
01:07:19
>> Yeah. in in a block. Um I was mainly I
01:07:24
wasn't mates with Arthur, but we're all
01:07:27
it was only 48 of us in the block and he
01:07:29
was Arthur was older than the rest of
01:07:31
us, you know, he was in his 40s. Um so
01:07:34
he mixed with the older guys and we
01:07:36
mixed with the younger guys and so on.
01:07:38
So Arthur was a bit different, but he
01:07:40
was always always always
01:07:44
uh working on his case. you know, he'd
01:07:47
be out in the yard walking up and down
01:07:49
in his underwear, uh, shaking his head,
01:07:52
thinking, "How did it happen? How did it
01:07:54
happen?" Um, it wasn't until we got to
01:07:56
how to that Arthur and I became good
01:07:59
friends because we were both in the
01:08:01
fencing gang together cuz he was a
01:08:03
farmer and I was in the fencing gang and
01:08:05
me and Arthur got together and we
01:08:07
started because the gangs only have
01:08:09
eight men in them, you know,
01:08:11
>> and we were both long termers. And so,
01:08:14
um, so we became friends there and we
01:08:16
used to have a lot of fun. Arthur had a
01:08:18
good sense of humor, too. And uh we'd be
01:08:21
um uh making these ridiculous patents,
01:08:24
fencing patents, um stupid ways of
01:08:27
putting up fences. And we'd we'd think
01:08:29
it up at night and then come the next
01:08:31
day to work and and we'd be laughing and
01:08:33
rolling about some stupid idea we had
01:08:35
for putting up a fence. But um also of
01:08:38
course Arthur was working on his case
01:08:40
and he was writing these letters to
01:08:42
Moldun because David David Yellup had
01:08:45
written the book Beyond a Reasonable
01:08:47
Doubt which cast serious doubt on the
01:08:50
validity of the convictions of of Arthur
01:08:54
Thomas because the the uh the cartridge
01:08:57
case
01:08:58
>> which had had been pl which which is
01:09:01
came from Arthur's gun which supposedly
01:09:04
used to kill the crew. news um
01:09:09
was planted by the police and that was
01:09:11
proven and so um David Yellop wrote this
01:09:15
wrote this book and um and uh suddenly
01:09:20
uh suddenly the thing got momentum and
01:09:22
and um Robert Maldun who was the prime
01:09:26
minister at the time was sympathetic to
01:09:29
Arthur's cause and so Arthur used to
01:09:31
write these letters to Maldun
01:09:34
but he couldn't write very well. Arthur
01:09:36
was semi only semi literate, you know,
01:09:39
he could he he didn't use full stops. He
01:09:41
didn't use capital letters. He was
01:09:43
really could hardly write. And so what
01:09:46
used to happen was that I used to write
01:09:50
the letters out in good English. He'd
01:09:51
give me the letters, I'd transcribe them
01:09:54
into good English, and then he would
01:09:56
rewrite them in his own hand and post
01:09:58
them off to the prime minister. And then
01:10:00
the prime minister used to give them to
01:10:02
the news media and they used to quite
01:10:04
often get read out. Parts of them would
01:10:06
be read out at night on the 6:00 news.
01:10:08
>> Wow.
01:10:09
>> And so yeah, Arthur and I became good
01:10:11
friends and and later on when after he
01:10:14
got out I went round and stayed at his
01:10:16
place on his farm.
01:10:19
>> Uh and uh and
01:10:21
>> did he get compensation?
01:10:22
>> Yes, he got a million.
01:10:23
>> A million bucks. Yeah.
01:10:24
>> Yeah. Which is a lot of money in those
01:10:26
days. A million dollars was enough to
01:10:28
buy the best farm
01:10:31
>> in uh in the one of the best farms in
01:10:33
the white cat.
01:10:34
>> Yeah.
01:10:35
>> Jeez, I can't think of many things worse
01:10:37
than being wrong wrongly committed,
01:10:38
especially of a heinous crime like that.
01:10:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. Especially
01:10:43
and he served nine years before he was
01:10:45
pardoned.
01:10:45
>> He was given a judicial pardon. and we
01:10:48
were working together
01:10:50
on the um fencing gang when he uh when
01:10:53
he was picked up
01:10:56
uh and he'd been given the
01:10:59
>> a a a pardon by the uh governor general
01:11:03
and he just disappeared by the time we
01:11:05
got back. He was gone.
01:11:07
>> He was gone.
01:11:08
>> So you did join a gang in jail. A
01:11:10
fencing gang.
01:11:11
>> Yeah. Fencing gang.
01:11:12
>> You're a gang member?
01:11:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the forestry gang. I was
01:11:16
in all the gangs. I was a gang one [ __ ]
01:11:19
>> Yeah.
01:11:20
>> What were the what were the the five
01:11:21
years incarcerated? What were the
01:11:23
biggest lessons about yourself,
01:11:26
>> if anything?
01:11:27
>> Uh,
01:11:29
I changed a lot. Did you?
01:11:31
>> I changed a lot. I was a different
01:11:33
person when I got out to what I was when
01:11:35
I went in because I I was fully
01:11:38
criminalized. I was fully criminalized
01:11:40
when I got out. I was fully committed to
01:11:43
the criminal ethic to the point that I
01:11:46
hated cops.
01:11:47
>> I hated cops. I hated uniforms. I hated
01:11:50
bus conductors. I hated anyone wearing a
01:11:53
uniform. It was it was sort of drilled
01:11:56
into us in jail by the inmate social
01:11:59
code that the worst filthiest thing you
01:12:01
could ever be called is to be called a
01:12:03
policeman. That they were they were the
01:12:05
scum of the earth,
01:12:07
>> you know. and um and I I had a real chip
01:12:09
on my shoulder when I got out uh in that
01:12:13
sense. Uh but when I started writing my
01:12:16
PhD, working on my PhD and I started
01:12:19
interviewing prison officers
01:12:22
uh because I it was on the history of
01:12:24
the maximum security prison. So I was
01:12:26
interviewing prison officers that had
01:12:27
been prison officers in the 50s and 40s.
01:12:30
It was from in the post-war period I
01:12:32
focused on. Um I got to talk to a lot of
01:12:36
guys. I realize that, you know, you
01:12:39
build up this image of this evil person.
01:12:42
It's like you you'd be the same if you
01:12:44
were a terrorist. Really, I suppose the
01:12:46
IRA had that mentality as well. You
01:12:49
develop it and and copers have the same
01:12:51
mentality about criminals. You see, it's
01:12:53
them and us.
01:12:55
Um, and then I realized, well, you know,
01:12:57
they're just actually human beings like
01:12:59
us and
01:13:00
>> doing their job
01:13:00
>> and they're doing their jobs and and and
01:13:02
and then I got to know quite a few cops
01:13:06
through running marathons cuz there's
01:13:07
quite a few cops running marathons. I
01:13:09
know they're not bad bloss, you know,
01:13:12
and and and now, of course, I I get on
01:13:15
really well with the police and and um
01:13:18
and you know, Greg O' Connor became a
01:13:20
friend of mine. He was the, you know,
01:13:22
secretary of the police association. we
01:13:23
became friends and so I changed as well
01:13:26
when I got out. But when I first got
01:13:28
out, I was I was pretty bloody down a
01:13:32
hole, you know.
01:13:33
>> I was really down a hole.
01:13:35
>> Yeah. There's there's a saying that, you
01:13:37
know, most people are hard not to like
01:13:38
up close. And I suppose that applies to
01:13:40
everyone, police or other inmates or
01:13:42
whatever. You know, you get to know
01:13:43
someone and you
01:13:43
>> get to know someone. Yeah. I was really
01:13:45
quite sympathetic,
01:13:48
you know, cuz I knew a lot of guys who'
01:13:50
done some pretty horrible things you in
01:13:52
jail cuz, you know, max peral max
01:13:54
security prison, you got the worst
01:13:56
criminals in the country. And I I found
01:13:58
that some of them have been convicted of
01:14:00
horrible crimes and and yet they were
01:14:03
actually pretty nice people
01:14:06
>> on a personal basis. Yeah. So, and I
01:14:10
became good friends with some of them.
01:14:11
And um I
01:14:12
>> mean there's some bad people in there,
01:14:14
but if you if you judge any any of us on
01:14:16
our worst day, like
01:14:17
>> Yeah. Well, you're not going to like
01:14:18
anyone.
01:14:18
>> You can't be defined Yeah. you can't be
01:14:20
defined by the worst thing you ever did,
01:14:22
you know. Um but uh at the same time
01:14:27
what I found too is that when you're in
01:14:30
jail because it's a you're in a
01:14:33
microscope and you're living in a you're
01:14:36
under a microscope. You're living in a
01:14:38
microcosm
01:14:40
and everybody
01:14:42
knows that everyone else is watching
01:14:44
what you're doing. So people tend to be
01:14:47
on their best behavior. They te even
01:14:50
people who are pretty psychologically
01:14:52
messed up tend to be on their best
01:14:55
behavior in jail and you get to see the
01:14:57
best side of them because we were living
01:14:59
in this one this really benign community
01:15:02
where it was really important to be
01:15:05
honest. It was really important to be
01:15:07
generous. It was really important to be
01:15:10
fair and to be seen that way by the
01:15:13
others because there's only 48 of you in
01:15:16
the block
01:15:17
>> and your reputation is based on what
01:15:20
everyone else is saying about you and so
01:15:23
everyone's trying to be well try to be
01:15:26
liked. You don't want to be disliked in
01:15:28
that kind of an environment.
01:15:30
Um, and but when I got out, I found that
01:15:34
a lot of the guys weren't the same as
01:15:36
what they were when they were in prison.
01:15:38
They when you've got anonymity,
01:15:42
a weak character
01:15:45
>> and drugs and alcohol involved, suddenly
01:15:47
they would revert back to what they were
01:15:50
before.
01:15:52
>> So, it was quite quite a lesson
01:15:54
actually. I learned a lot about human
01:15:57
nature actually when I was in jail. I
01:15:59
learned a hell of a lot, you know.
01:16:01
>> I suppose you have to become an expert
01:16:03
at reading people for survival.
01:16:04
>> Yeah, you do. You really Yeah, you
01:16:07
really do. You really become intimately
01:16:13
intimately um
01:16:16
uh involved with other people's
01:16:18
personalities, you know,
01:16:20
>> and and there was a guy called Pie Wai
01:16:23
who'd done a bad thing. He'd he was a
01:16:25
lifer and he would he would uh he he'd
01:16:29
escape from prison and killed two two
01:16:31
old people while he was escaped killed
01:16:34
two old people in New Plymouth and yet
01:16:37
and in jail he was a real nice guy he
01:16:39
was disturbed really badly disturbed but
01:16:43
he'd sit with me in my cell he'd come
01:16:45
into my cell and he just sit in my cell
01:16:49
and then he'd start talking
01:16:52
and then he'd stop talking
01:16:55
and he'd go off into the stream
01:16:59
and then he'd start talking again. He
01:17:01
might have stopped talking for a minute
01:17:03
and then he'd go back talking to what he
01:17:05
was talking and he's talking about
01:17:06
really deep stuff. Really deep stuff
01:17:09
that was going on in his head
01:17:11
>> and uh and I I really like Pney. He was
01:17:16
he was a he was a nice bloke, but he did
01:17:18
have some deep [ __ ] going on in his
01:17:20
brain,
01:17:21
>> you know. But um
01:17:24
yeah gee
01:17:26
yeah some really interesting
01:17:29
>> there was a guy called Dave Fari who was
01:17:31
a bully at Mount Eden bully and end up
01:17:35
being sent up to permeable because he
01:17:36
stabbed a bloke called Rand Randall in
01:17:38
the movie stabbed and ripped his guts
01:17:40
open with a knife and uh from behind
01:17:43
coming over the top and ripped them up
01:17:45
and uh and he came into perimeal
01:17:48
and he started mouththing off and ba
01:17:52
you know, just like he did. And you
01:17:54
know, the guy said
01:17:56
the marish didn't like him, you know,
01:17:58
cuz he was loud. Cuz the thing about
01:18:00
perime, you don't be loud. You and you
01:18:03
don't look at other people either. You
01:18:05
don't stare at people or look at at
01:18:07
them. And you don't look in people's
01:18:09
cells. You look at the ground all the
01:18:11
time when you're walking around. Always
01:18:13
look at the ground. Um and uh and u and
01:18:18
he was strutting about and I tell him
01:18:21
what the marries hated him and um he was
01:18:25
a good athlete too this guy but um
01:18:27
marries hated him and uh and he was
01:18:29
mouththing off talking loud in the
01:18:31
visiting in the uh dining room and then
01:18:34
and the mar was used to sit at one table
01:18:37
and he wasn't among them he was at
01:18:39
another table in the dining room and
01:18:41
then this little guy little tuh hoy
01:18:44
guy called Bobby Bobby Petty. And Bobby
01:18:48
was much smaller than him, but he sat at
01:18:50
the Marish table and he said, he said,
01:18:54
"Hey, [ __ ] up your wonk. [ __ ] up your
01:18:58
[ __ ] egg." You know, and Dave looked
01:19:01
over and there's this little guy abusing
01:19:03
him, you know, and then he looked into
01:19:05
all the marrow. She was just sitting
01:19:06
there looking at him and he just shut up
01:19:10
>> and he sat down and he never talked loud
01:19:13
again. Never talked loud again. And he
01:19:16
used to come up to me cuz they started
01:19:18
thieving from his cell as well which was
01:19:20
something you don't do in Primal Peter
01:19:23
you know being a Peter thief they call
01:19:24
it you don't tea leaf from people's
01:19:27
cells but they used to thieve from his
01:19:29
cell which is the greatest insult. M
01:19:32
>> and he used to Dave used to come up cuz
01:19:34
he knew that no one would thieve off me
01:19:37
and he used to leave his valuables in my
01:19:39
cell. Can you look after my stuff for
01:19:41
me, mate?
01:19:42
>> Yeah, sure.
01:19:44
>> And and then he'd come up after work and
01:19:46
pick up his soap and his shampoo and
01:19:48
stuff like that. shaving gear,
01:19:50
toothbrush, and uh and and that, you
01:19:54
know, so and and you said to me, because
01:19:58
he used to beat people up for fun on the
01:20:00
outside,
01:20:02
>> on the outside, he used to pull up, him
01:20:04
and his mate used to pull up against to
01:20:06
a car beside the lights and they'd get
01:20:08
out and rob the guy. And and Dave said
01:20:12
to me, he used to bash up he he used to
01:20:15
bash up the driver while the other guy
01:20:17
did the thieving cuz he loved bashing
01:20:19
people up.
01:20:20
>> And um and he used he come to me after
01:20:23
the after this incident and he he sat
01:20:26
down with me and he said,
01:20:29
"You know, I used to love violence."
01:20:33
He he said, "But I don't like it
01:20:36
anymore." That's what he said because he
01:20:38
suddenly found he was on the other side
01:20:40
of it. I don't like it anymore.
01:20:43
>> Yeah. Develop some
01:20:44
>> I don't think it's a go anymore. That's
01:20:46
what he said.
01:20:48
>> And um what was the hardest part of
01:20:51
rebuilding life with a serious
01:20:53
conviction? 5 years. Oh, first of all,
01:20:55
what was the day like? Do you remember
01:20:56
the day you got out? Are you counting
01:20:58
down the days to release?
01:21:00
>> Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah. The day I got
01:21:02
out, man.
01:21:03
>> Is that a great day?
01:21:04
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was a great day. All
01:21:06
right. I um
01:21:10
I I said goodbye to all my friends in
01:21:12
the jail. Um they called me over to the
01:21:16
they unlocked me early cuz I had to
01:21:19
catch the 7:30 bus to Oakland and I got
01:21:21
out in July. So it was winter time. Uh
01:21:24
no, they I went up to work parole. You
01:21:26
see, work parole. That was my day out,
01:21:29
my day of release really. When I went to
01:21:31
work parole on Mount Eden uh Kariki
01:21:34
Avenue, there was a work parole hostel
01:21:37
and um I just said goodbye to everyone,
01:21:41
knocked on their cell doors and say
01:21:42
goodbye. It was dark and they called me
01:21:44
over new bolded guard room and I went
01:21:47
over to the guard room and uh and they
01:21:50
gave me my old kit and I got
01:21:54
all my prison kit off and put on my old
01:21:57
outdated clothes. All the fashions had
01:21:59
changed. I was wearing bell bottoms,
01:22:01
platform shoes, wide lapel jacket,
01:22:06
you know, except paisley shirt, you
01:22:08
know.
01:22:08
>> Yeah. 1975 clothes, but it's 1980 by
01:22:11
this point.
01:22:11
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That didn't
01:22:13
change.
01:22:13
>> Different decade.
01:22:14
>> Yeah. Different. The clothes were all
01:22:15
different. And uh and got in my old gear
01:22:19
and got on the bus. They drove me down
01:22:22
to Tangi to get the 7:30 bus to
01:22:25
Oakuckland.
01:22:26
>> It's a 4-hour trip. I arrived there at
01:22:28
11:30.
01:22:30
got off and I ran up Queen Street. I ran
01:22:33
up Queen Street and uh and to my dad's
01:22:37
place and he took me to the um
01:22:42
up to Mount Eden and we had lunch on the
01:22:45
top of Mount Eden and then uh took me
01:22:47
around to the work work parole hostel in
01:22:50
Kakari in Mount Eden and uh I met Dez
01:22:55
Burgess who was the warden of the uh
01:22:59
pre-release hostel
01:23:01
>> and um and his wife and he explained the
01:23:04
way things worked and and we were
01:23:06
allowed out uh I was allowed to work go
01:23:08
to work go to work every day had a job
01:23:10
at Oakland University doing uh research
01:23:13
on prisoners rights under the under a
01:23:15
government scheme called the PEP scheme
01:23:18
where the government subsidized an
01:23:20
employer to give people who had just got
01:23:22
out of jail or had been out of work uh
01:23:25
to give them a job and um and I was on
01:23:29
that scheme and
01:23:32
And then the next day I went into the
01:23:34
university and the law faculty was there
01:23:37
and Bernie Brown who was a professor of
01:23:39
law there um gave me an office and and
01:23:44
uh he looked after me. He he'd worked on
01:23:46
my appeal actually back 5 years before
01:23:50
Bernie and um and I started doing this
01:23:54
work because I had while I was in jail
01:23:56
after I finished my MA and I got moved
01:24:01
down to I got first class honors for my
01:24:03
MA and then I got moved down to how to
01:24:06
out of Pereimal after I'd finished my my
01:24:09
my thesis and I did study uh and um uh a
01:24:16
criminal law
01:24:17
>> a as an external student and I came top
01:24:21
of the class.
01:24:22
>> Wow.
01:24:24
>> And um a class of about 300.
01:24:27
>> And um and Bernie was teaching that
01:24:30
class. So he he knew who I was and he he
01:24:33
helped me get my PhD scholarship
01:24:36
reinstated and so on which had lapsed
01:24:38
while I was in jail. and um and then and
01:24:41
I was doing a paper called advanced
01:24:42
criminal law as well and and so I was
01:24:47
able to attend classes
01:24:49
um for the last part of the course and
01:24:52
me and a guy called Barry Matthews who
01:24:54
ended up being the uh deputy
01:24:57
commissioner of police we we we were top
01:25:00
of that class.
01:25:01
>> Wow. And um
01:25:04
and so I was studying and as well as
01:25:07
doing this research on prisoners rights.
01:25:10
And so I was attending classes which was
01:25:12
just exciting as hell
01:25:14
>> being back at university and attending
01:25:16
law classes and and um Mary Kennedy was
01:25:19
teaching in that class and I became
01:25:22
friends with her and Bill Hodgej who was
01:25:25
also a law professor and he got me out
01:25:27
running marathons
01:25:29
>> and so you know it was just it's so
01:25:31
exciting. I mean it was just the most
01:25:33
one of the most exciting times of my
01:25:35
life and one of the happiest times of my
01:25:37
life.
01:25:39
Oh, just cuz you had a new appreciation
01:25:40
of freedom or
01:25:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was able to go
01:25:44
running instead of at how to we used to
01:25:46
run around the football field.
01:25:48
>> Um and we I was able to run without a
01:25:53
running in a circle.
01:25:56
So, Bill and I used to go out running
01:25:59
and be run into the university or we do
01:26:02
a big circuit around Mount Eden or out
01:26:03
around St. Helas. Uh do 20. We used to
01:26:06
do sometimes do 20 m, you know, 30k runs
01:26:09
in the morning or else we'd go up the
01:26:10
white tackeries.
01:26:11
>> Yeah. The old Arthur Lydia block.
01:26:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we do do
01:26:16
those big runs up up a mountain road
01:26:19
from from Tidarangi down into the valley
01:26:20
and up mountain road or up uh
01:26:25
um openuku road and back along the
01:26:28
summit road back to Tidarangi. Me and
01:26:30
Bill.
01:26:31
>> Yeah.
01:26:31
>> And that so that was great. That was
01:26:33
while I was doing my still on work
01:26:35
parole. And then I got uh I fronted the
01:26:39
parole board and I was
01:26:43
I released a week before my statutory
01:26:47
release date. They gave me a week
01:26:51
and and I'd done a first class on an MA
01:26:54
with first class honors while I was in
01:26:55
jail. So my reward for that was a week
01:26:58
off my sentence.
01:27:00
>> Did um Yeah. Yeah. You're you're
01:27:02
running. We we talked about this before
01:27:03
we started the podcast. You you were
01:27:05
bloody good. You you got you did a 252
01:27:07
marathon, which is that's that's a
01:27:09
fantastic time. You did an Iron Man as
01:27:11
well. Full iron man.
01:27:12
>> Yeah, I did an Iron Man. Uh yeah, I did
01:27:15
the Iron Man in 1989. Uh that was after
01:27:18
I I'd finished my PhD and I and I when I
01:27:22
was working at uh Canterbury University.
01:27:25
>> Um but yeah, I did I did a few I did a
01:27:28
few marathons
01:27:30
uh with Bill. Um, my first marathon was
01:27:34
in fact the worry marathon which was a
01:27:36
week after my release date.
01:27:38
>> Uh, my release date was the 30th of
01:27:40
October
01:27:41
uh, 1980
01:27:43
and the worry marathon I think was a
01:27:46
week after that. And I'd been training
01:27:48
with Bill and so um, I did that and I
01:27:51
ran it uh, in 3 hours and 11 seconds.
01:27:55
>> Got it.
01:27:57
>> Any marathon will know how devastating
01:27:59
that is.
01:28:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, as I said be telling
01:28:02
you before, I I I I would have uh broken
01:28:06
the 3 hours by a couple of seconds had
01:28:08
my shoelace not come undone. And and no
01:28:11
excuses, but I had to bend over and do
01:28:13
do my shoelace up and I reckon that took
01:28:15
11 seconds or maybe 12.
01:28:19
>> And were was it hard for um Yeah. Did
01:28:23
your conviction sort of hold you back in
01:28:24
any way? like the way the way you
01:28:25
explained it, it seems like you
01:28:26
seamlessly got back to your academic
01:28:28
life. But I'm there's people out there
01:28:30
that, you know, must be like once a
01:28:32
crook, always a crook or they're weary
01:28:33
of you or they struggle to give you a
01:28:35
second chance. I had none of that
01:28:37
really.
01:28:38
>> No. Wow.
01:28:39
>> People went out of their way to help me.
01:28:42
>> Why? You know, they went out of their
01:28:43
way to help me. I think I've got an
01:28:46
honest face.
01:28:47
>> Yeah. No, but honestly I uh I'm pretty
01:28:51
sincere kind of a bloke and um people
01:28:54
took me for what I was uh took me at
01:28:57
face value, you know, and uh and I was
01:29:00
careful not to let people down really um
01:29:03
cuz I I I was faithful to Bill and I was
01:29:06
faithful to Bernie and and people
01:29:12
no one really I I was never aware of any
01:29:16
stigma at all. M
01:29:18
>> um and when I was later on, much later
01:29:20
in my life, when I was in the Ssbury
01:29:23
Street Foundation at Christ Church,
01:29:25
dealing with long-term long-term uh
01:29:29
criminals who who who'd come to this
01:29:31
halfway house that I was on the board of
01:29:33
trustees and we were dealing with them
01:29:36
and get getting them jobs. I found that
01:29:38
that that was common actually in New
01:29:41
Zealand. You know, I'm really bloody
01:29:43
impressed with New Zealanders in that
01:29:45
respect because they'll always give a
01:29:47
bloke a fair chance. They'll always give
01:29:50
a guy the benefit of the doubt and some
01:29:53
of them let them down, get let down. But
01:29:55
I found that generally New Zealanders
01:29:58
will give a man a fair go.
01:30:00
>> Uh they'll give you a chance. And I
01:30:04
found that more often than the other,
01:30:06
they'll go out of their way to help you
01:30:08
if you've just got out of jail and you
01:30:10
and you and you and you're honest about
01:30:12
things, you know, don't lie to them.
01:30:14
>> Um, people are pretty bloody fair. Not
01:30:17
like the United States at all where
01:30:19
there's huge stigma,
01:30:20
>> right? if you've got out of jail and
01:30:22
I've been to the states quite a few
01:30:23
times,
01:30:24
>> you know, I can't go there now since
01:30:26
911, but um but I've been to state
01:30:30
states over a dozen times to conferences
01:30:33
where I given papers at at the big
01:30:35
conferences over there and they they're
01:30:38
totally different attitude over there to
01:30:41
uh criminals. There's a real stigma. A
01:30:44
real stigma
01:30:46
to the point where I was once at the uh
01:30:50
at the Hyatt staying at the Hyatt in
01:30:53
Chicago or somewhere and um and there
01:30:56
was some a group of criminals, ex
01:30:59
criminals had got together and they were
01:31:02
doing work on the hotel as a as a a
01:31:05
company that was doing the putting in
01:31:06
the drywalls.
01:31:08
And you know what? There were people
01:31:10
outside pamphleting the hotel. Dear um
01:31:14
Hyatt customer, did you know that the
01:31:17
that the company that's installing
01:31:19
drywalls into this uh hotel are
01:31:23
criminals? Do you really do you feel
01:31:26
safe in this hotel knowing that
01:31:28
criminals are working in this hotel?
01:31:31
True. And there was a big and it was the
01:31:34
picture with the with the message of a
01:31:36
rat holding a a bag of money. And that's
01:31:40
that was true. I couldn't believe it.
01:31:43
>> They were pamphleting the bloody hotel
01:31:45
and these guys were trying to make a go
01:31:47
of their lives.
01:31:48
>> Yeah. Oh boy. I thought that would never
01:31:51
happen in New Zealand.
01:31:52
>> Wow.
01:31:53
>> That would never happen. You'd be on the
01:31:55
news and and pill you'd be pillared for
01:31:57
it. M
01:31:58
>> speaking of being on the news, you you
01:32:00
you know, so you were um at the uh
01:32:03
Canterbury University for 32 years um
01:32:07
as a criminologist and you were like the
01:32:09
go-to guy on the news. Every time there
01:32:11
was a story about law and order in New
01:32:12
Zealand, you would see your ugly mug on
01:32:14
the
01:32:15
>> 6:00 news. Yeah. You became quite quite
01:32:17
famous, I guess, like the go-to guy.
01:32:19
>> I became Yeah. the the I became the
01:32:22
leading uh really the leading
01:32:24
spokesperson on
01:32:27
the leading um lay spokesperson uh
01:32:30
expert opinion on on crime and uh
01:32:35
prisons.
01:32:35
>> What what is a criminologist? What does
01:32:38
that mean?
01:32:39
>> Well, it's got different fields. Some
01:32:42
criminologists um come from the law. it
01:32:45
it's not a discipline on its own right
01:32:47
not like sociology or psychology um but
01:32:50
some come from the from the law
01:32:52
profession um some come from sociology
01:32:57
which like which I do and some are
01:32:59
psychology and they deal with different
01:33:01
the
01:33:03
um legal criminals are mainly invol
01:33:05
involved with the law and and the law of
01:33:08
crime
01:33:10
psychologists are mainly uh deal with
01:33:13
the psychology Y of crime and the and
01:33:16
crime of individuals and what makes
01:33:18
someone a criminal and what makes them
01:33:21
how you deal with rehabilitating people
01:33:24
and so on. And a sociologist deals with
01:33:27
the phenomen crime as a social
01:33:29
phenomenon. And so you mainly deal with
01:33:32
crime trends.
01:33:34
Um uh the effects of criminal justice
01:33:37
policy on on trends of crime and all my
01:33:42
work was was historical stuff on the
01:33:45
evolution of the criminal justice
01:33:47
system, the evolution of prisons and
01:33:50
also how the profiles of crime have
01:33:54
changed over the years and what's caused
01:33:57
those changes. For example, um you know,
01:34:02
why did suddenly rape become why did
01:34:05
rape become so heavily penalized
01:34:10
in the 19 late 70s and 80s? Well, the
01:34:14
feminist movement had a lot to do with
01:34:15
that with raising the profile, raising
01:34:19
public consciousness about rape and that
01:34:21
resulted in changes in the law, changes
01:34:24
in criminal justice policy, changes in
01:34:26
attitude towards sexual violation. And
01:34:29
you can do the same with drug crime, for
01:34:32
example. Drug crime was not a big issue
01:34:34
in New Zealand until the 1970s with the
01:34:39
hippie movement. And you can trace that
01:34:40
back to the hippie movement just so you
01:34:43
can you can trace the u feminist
01:34:46
campaigns back to the Vietnam war
01:34:50
and the peace movement. And then they
01:34:52
out of the peace movement came the black
01:34:54
liberation movement and out of the black
01:34:57
liberation movement came the women's
01:34:58
liberation movement and out of the
01:35:01
women's liberation mo movement came rape
01:35:04
consciousness
01:35:06
and u one of the one of my books crime
01:35:09
law crime law and justice in New Zealand
01:35:11
is about that
01:35:14
>> from from everything you've seen what
01:35:15
actually reduces crime
01:35:20
>> um Well,
01:35:24
um, from an individual point of view,
01:35:28
what reduces your likelihood of becoming
01:35:32
a criminal
01:35:33
>> is your upbringing primarily.
01:35:36
>> And if you've been bashed around and and
01:35:39
badly parented or serial parented or
01:35:42
suffered parental abdication
01:35:44
um, when you're young, you're likely to
01:35:47
become go off the rails as you grow up.
01:35:50
But if you've got a strong family with
01:35:53
strong moral compass, um you're less far
01:35:58
less likely. Christians, for example,
01:36:00
people who brought up in very religious
01:36:02
households seldom become criminals
01:36:05
because they they have a very very
01:36:07
strict moral upbringing. Um but you
01:36:11
don't need to be a Christian
01:36:13
>> to be to to be well parented. Basically,
01:36:17
if you've got a a caring parents who
01:36:19
take you to football and actually take a
01:36:22
a uh an act of interest in your
01:36:24
upbringing, you're less likely to become
01:36:26
a criminal. I had I had a very good
01:36:29
early upbringing. My mom was an
01:36:30
alcoholic later on, but um none of my my
01:36:34
brothers and sisters have become
01:36:36
criminals.
01:36:37
>> Um I was the only one, but I was going
01:36:39
to become a criminal anyway. Oh, not
01:36:41
become a criminal. I was become going to
01:36:43
become a rebel. And of course because
01:36:44
I'd have always been re rebellious and I
01:36:46
would and I wanted to try drugs. If it
01:36:48
hadn't been for drugs, I wouldn't have
01:36:51
broken the law. I wouldn't have gone
01:36:53
that way. I wouldn't have become a
01:36:54
burglar. I wouldn't have become a
01:36:55
robber.
01:36:56
>> I was just a drug offender because I
01:36:58
wanted to have some fun.
01:37:00
>> Yeah.
01:37:03
>> Is crime actually getting worse or does
01:37:05
it just feel that way sometimes in New
01:37:06
Zealand?
01:37:08
Well,
01:37:10
um
01:37:12
things there's a lot more lot more
01:37:16
violence around now. Um murder rates um
01:37:20
in the in the 1950s and60s.
01:37:24
A murder. There were maybe less than 10
01:37:26
murders a year. Now it's stabilized. The
01:37:29
murders a year this I 70 or 80 uh when I
01:37:32
retired. I don't keep up with it these
01:37:34
days, but it had stabilized. the murder
01:37:36
rate went up and then stabilized.
01:37:39
>> Um it it it stabilized from about the
01:37:43
mid1 1980s where murder's concerned. But
01:37:46
you have little fads, you know, where
01:37:49
crime's concerned. for example, you
01:37:51
suddenly it's became it be it has become
01:37:55
um uh trendy or fashionable to uh ram
01:38:00
rates became fashionable for a while and
01:38:03
um so it's pretty hard to say that crime
01:38:06
rates themselves have gone up
01:38:09
>> um because different crimes have
01:38:11
different profiles and they're affected
01:38:14
by different social conditions
01:38:16
um during times of poverty for example,
01:38:20
then you're liable to get more property
01:38:22
crime.
01:38:22
>> Yeah. Uh so it's pretty hard to to say
01:38:26
um which crimes have gone up and and of
01:38:29
course then there's there's hidden
01:38:31
crimes like sexual violation which
01:38:36
convictions for sexual violation have
01:38:38
gone up because more people are
01:38:40
reporting sexual violations
01:38:42
in situations where in the 50s they
01:38:45
wouldn't have reported them because you
01:38:48
you would have been
01:38:52
um considered to be partly responsible
01:38:55
for leading someone on for example
01:38:58
whereas nowadays that doesn't hold any
01:39:00
water. You can't say, "Oh, I I raped her
01:39:03
because she led me on." Be a good one.
01:39:06
You know, and rape and marriage of
01:39:08
course became illegal in the 1980s as
01:39:10
well, whereas pre private to that part
01:39:13
of your conjugal rights and and you
01:39:15
couldn't be convicted of raping your
01:39:17
wife. And so and so the profiles change
01:39:21
as a result of social conditions and as
01:39:24
a result of um police and and criminal
01:39:27
justice policy and as a result of law
01:39:30
changes
01:39:31
>> in prison in New Zealand. Is it is it
01:39:34
currently working the system? Does it
01:39:35
make people better or worse?
01:39:39
>> One of the reasons um I think that
01:39:43
prisons are so violent now. I mean
01:39:45
nearly all in fact all of the murders
01:39:48
all of the homicides that have taken
01:39:50
place all of the prison homicides that
01:39:53
have taken place in New Zealand in the
01:39:57
history of
01:39:58
New Zealand penal policy all of them
01:40:00
have taken place since 1979.
01:40:04
>> Wow.
01:40:05
>> The first prison homicide with Keith
01:40:06
Ross Hall who was murdered in perimeal
01:40:09
prison A block had his throat cut in
01:40:12
1979.
01:40:13
All of them have occurred since then and
01:40:16
that has partly to do um
01:40:22
with the way prison administration has
01:40:25
changed. prison administration has
01:40:27
become leaned far more towards the
01:40:30
American model
01:40:32
unlike when I was in prison where we
01:40:36
were living during a period of great
01:40:37
liberalism and there was the prisons
01:40:41
weren't harsh places and if you treat a
01:40:44
dog harshly you'll get a dog that bites
01:40:48
um or a dog that's cowed but basically
01:40:52
you'll get a screwed up dog and um
01:40:59
in the prisons these days the much
01:41:02
harsher much less forgiving kind of
01:41:05
environment and you get people reacting
01:41:08
to that environment and so thus they're
01:41:10
far more vi far more um dangerous places
01:41:16
than they used to be when I was there
01:41:18
but it's also the case that the gangs
01:41:22
are far more prominent in the prisons
01:41:24
than they were when I was in jail. Quite
01:41:27
apart from the fact that perimeal the
01:41:29
your prison your gang membership was
01:41:31
considered to be
01:41:33
>> irrelevant.
01:41:35
>> There weren't that many gang members in
01:41:37
jail when I was there whereas now
01:41:39
there's a lot about a third in fact I
01:41:42
think have gang affiliations. So um that
01:41:46
in itself leads to greater violence in
01:41:48
prison.
01:41:49
What do you have any idea of what
01:41:51
actually work when it comes to reducing
01:41:53
reoffending?
01:41:54
>> Yep. What do you reckon?
01:41:57
>> What works
01:41:59
is that
01:42:02
what happens in prison is less
01:42:04
important. You know, all programs you
01:42:07
programs and programs and programs a big
01:42:09
deal now. psychologists. There's
01:42:11
psychologists and psychologists and they
01:42:13
play a big part in pretending that
01:42:15
they're rehabilitating people, which is
01:42:18
[ __ ]
01:42:19
>> What really matters What really matters
01:42:23
is first of all
01:42:26
the environment you came from.
01:42:28
>> Yeah.
01:42:29
If you came from a loving, supportive
01:42:32
environment, you're much less likely to
01:42:34
rein than if you reoffend than if you
01:42:36
came from a a dysfunctional
01:42:39
uh violent or um uh uh chaotic
01:42:44
environment as a child.
01:42:47
Secondly,
01:42:49
when you're in prison, if you've got
01:42:52
strong support
01:42:54
from your family, that same family which
01:42:56
which was supported you when you were
01:42:58
young, even though you may have deviated
01:43:02
and and and broken the law and gone to
01:43:04
jail as I did, if you've got strong
01:43:07
family support when you're in jail,
01:43:10
that's a big help. That's a big help. M
01:43:14
>> um and when I was in prison, I was in
01:43:18
prison at a time when there were lots
01:43:20
and lots of middle class drug offenders
01:43:23
like me
01:43:25
who
01:43:27
came from good environments and broke
01:43:29
the law. Well, we all had good backup,
01:43:32
you know, and there was a saying in
01:43:33
Pereimal maximum when I was there
01:43:35
amongst the Mauies.
01:43:38
About 60% of all the inmates in Pere
01:43:43
u and there was a saying amongst the
01:43:45
Mauies, the prisons full of Mauies
01:43:49
and the visiting rooms full of park
01:43:50
hours.
01:43:52
>> But the Maries didn't get visits.
01:43:54
>> They came from these really
01:43:56
>> dysfunctional
01:43:56
>> dysfunctional chaotic
01:44:00
uh splintered environments and and a lot
01:44:04
of the parks had these were getting
01:44:06
visits and a lot of Mars were getting
01:44:08
visited from from parkour visitors as
01:44:10
well. So that was a big that's a big
01:44:13
factor. I mean I had my family backing
01:44:15
me up. I had my dad and my mom visiting
01:44:18
me regularly. Um I had my brothers and
01:44:21
sisters visiting me. I had my friends
01:44:23
visiting and I had them doing stuff for
01:44:26
me, running errands for me, helping me
01:44:28
with my when I was doing studies. Mom
01:44:31
typed out my my MA, you know, I had all
01:44:35
that kind of support. And then the third
01:44:37
thing is support when you get out.
01:44:41
>> You've got to have those same people who
01:44:43
visiting you when you when you're in
01:44:45
jail there standing for you and helping
01:44:49
you when you get out. M
01:44:50
>> and I was really lucky in that respect.
01:44:53
And also it wasn't just my family. You
01:44:56
see, I had Bill Hodgej.
01:44:58
>> Yeah.
01:44:59
>> And Professor Bill Hodgej and Professor
01:45:01
Bernard Brown, both in the law faculty
01:45:04
at C at Oakland University who backed me
01:45:09
when I got out, you know. So I had
01:45:11
really strong support when I got out.
01:45:14
And that some research was done by G
01:45:17
Jared Gilbert
01:45:19
and Ben Ellie and and and me. We we
01:45:24
studied we did a study of uh and it was
01:45:27
mainly Ben and and uh Jared that did the
01:45:30
research and then I helped write it up.
01:45:32
Um
01:45:34
they studied high-risk offenders, a
01:45:37
cohort of high-risisk offenders
01:45:40
who had got out of jail. They were
01:45:42
identified as high-risisk. they got out
01:45:44
of jail and didn't reaffend. What were
01:45:47
the characteristics of those guys who
01:45:49
were high risk at re of reoffending?
01:45:52
What what were the characteristics that
01:45:55
they had in common
01:45:57
which explains why they didn't offend?
01:45:58
And the characteristics they had in
01:46:00
common were not that they didn't use
01:46:02
drugs. Most of them used drugs when they
01:46:05
got out.
01:46:06
>> It wasn't that. It wasn't the programs
01:46:09
that they did when they were in prison.
01:46:11
It was the fact that they had support
01:46:14
during their sentences and when they got
01:46:16
out. And when they got out of jail, they
01:46:20
became
01:46:22
ordinary citizens.
01:46:24
>> They had love affairs. They got jobs,
01:46:28
they got married, they got mortgages,
01:46:31
they got kids. And that was what
01:46:33
happened. And and most of the people
01:46:35
that I was in jail with who were from
01:46:38
those middle class backgrounds, mainly
01:46:41
nearly all drug offenders, but not all,
01:46:44
never reoffended. Some of them were had
01:46:46
done robberies.
01:46:48
>> Uh some of them had done uh
01:46:52
had killed people as well. Um
01:46:55
but they came from good environments and
01:46:58
they didn't reaffend. And the ones who
01:47:00
came from dysfunctional environments,
01:47:02
chaotic environments, nearly all of them
01:47:04
went back to prison.
01:47:05
>> Yeah.
01:47:06
>> Not all of them. It's not an absolute
01:47:10
because I I had a couple of friends who
01:47:12
come from very good backgrounds.
01:47:14
M Pete Atinson, for example, who's a who
01:47:17
is a a a
01:47:20
uh a a prolific offender,
01:47:24
>> um came from a good middle class
01:47:25
background, but
01:47:29
but he's, you know, he he he's he's out
01:47:31
now and and and has gone straight,
01:47:34
>> but he's 80, you know,
01:47:36
>> so so but he spent most of his life in
01:47:40
jail, but he comes from a good middle-
01:47:41
class environment background. But but mo
01:47:43
but he's just an exception to the rule.
01:47:46
But nonetheless um
01:47:50
the rule is
01:47:52
that um people who live
01:47:56
lives of crime come from
01:47:59
tough environments
01:48:02
and tend to reaffend especially if
01:48:04
they've started offending as at a young
01:48:06
at a youthful age. There's a big
01:48:08
correlation between early onset and
01:48:11
lifetime history of offending.
01:48:14
>> Do you think that's part of the reason
01:48:16
um gang numbers are on the rise? The
01:48:18
people that don't have a family suddenly
01:48:19
find a family in the gang. Is that
01:48:22
>> Yeah, absolutely.
01:48:24
>> Absolutely.
01:48:25
>> Is there anything?
01:48:26
>> The gang is the family that they never
01:48:27
had.
01:48:29
>> The gang's the f the family. The gang
01:48:32
provides them with comradeship, meaning
01:48:35
um uh it provides them with a with an
01:48:39
income, especially nowadays. Um it
01:48:42
provides you with status, u a sense of
01:48:46
personal pride. All the things that that
01:48:49
that uh that a
01:48:53
an abusive or non-existent family didn't
01:48:56
provide will provide you when you get
01:48:59
out. uh when you if you in the gang and
01:49:01
and the the book that was written by
01:49:04
Glennice Denah and me called the girls
01:49:07
in the gang was actually about that but
01:49:10
it was about women and gangs but they
01:49:12
all came from these rough environments
01:49:14
and um
01:49:16
and they uh it was her MA I supervised
01:49:19
it and then we wrote it up as a book and
01:49:21
u that's what we found
01:49:24
she she did a study of women and gangs
01:49:27
and they nearly all came from terrible
01:49:29
environment environments.
01:49:30
>> Yeah.
01:49:30
>> And they were abused as children,
01:49:32
sexually abused and physically abused
01:49:34
and so on. And that was just normal for
01:49:36
them.
01:49:38
And that leads to a pretty u a woman a
01:49:43
person who can have serious personality
01:49:46
problems when they grow up.
01:49:49
>> All those reasons that you just gave for
01:49:51
people joining gangs, they they all
01:49:52
sound very very good. But is there
01:49:54
actually anything good about gangs?
01:49:57
Well,
01:49:59
it provides uh it fulfills a need for
01:50:03
some people.
01:50:05
Um
01:50:06
uh
01:50:09
and um I know
01:50:12
I know a few a few gangsters who aren't
01:50:16
involved in crime.
01:50:18
Um not everyone who's a gangster is in a
01:50:21
is involved in crime. And so from that
01:50:24
point of view it it fulfills the need.
01:50:26
It provides com just like the joining
01:50:29
the police or joining the army.
01:50:31
>> It provides you with a group a reference
01:50:34
group um which fulfills the
01:50:38
psychological need that all humans have
01:50:40
that is a sense of belonging and a team
01:50:44
to identify with.
01:50:46
So from that point of view, I think
01:50:48
gangs do provide a good thing for some
01:50:51
people, but they but there are also a
01:50:53
lot of negative factors where gangs are
01:50:55
concerned
01:50:56
>> and and some of those factors have to do
01:50:59
with uh parenting styles.
01:51:02
>> Yeah.
01:51:03
>> Uh and uh and a glorification of
01:51:06
violence
01:51:08
um and also inevitably uh drug use. So,
01:51:13
>> um, the negatives are greater than the
01:51:16
positives in my view,
01:51:18
>> but nonetheless, it's not all negative.
01:51:22
>> If what's the government getting right
01:51:23
and what are they getting wrong when it
01:51:25
comes to crime and law and order?
01:51:28
>> What would you what would you be doing
01:51:29
if you were in charge?
01:51:31
>> Oh, I I I' I'd get rid of the gang gang
01:51:35
patch abolition. I'd let them all
01:51:37
advertise their presence.
01:51:41
Yeah. Yeah. It's like if someone's
01:51:43
racist, you want them wearing a t-shirt
01:51:45
so you know you know what you're dealing
01:51:46
with.
01:51:47
>> I make it make it easier to keep tabs on
01:51:50
them.
01:51:57
But do do um Yeah. Do we need to be does
01:51:59
the the whoever's in charge need to be
01:52:00
tougher on crime or is that not working?
01:52:03
Are we tough enough?
01:52:06
>> I think a lot of I think uh
01:52:10
I would increase uh I would increase um
01:52:14
a lot of sentences uh
01:52:16
>> especially for violence violent crimes
01:52:19
>> um and I would increase
01:52:21
dramatically sentences for white collar
01:52:24
crime and sentences for money laundering
01:52:28
>> at the moment you can you can money
01:52:30
launder
01:52:33
criminals can't exist without money
01:52:35
laundering the money launderers
01:52:39
they
01:52:41
they are the enablers.
01:52:44
>> Um they should be punished as heavily as
01:52:48
the as the as the principal
01:52:51
perpetrators, but they're not. And um
01:52:54
and like likewise my collar criminals
01:52:57
who who fleece millions of dollars off
01:53:00
people,
01:53:01
>> I would come down like a ton of bricks
01:53:03
on them. And another group I would come
01:53:05
down like a ton of bricks on is people
01:53:08
who physically abuse children, parents
01:53:11
or otherwise who physically abuse
01:53:14
children or abdicate their parental
01:53:17
responsibilities who um neglect their
01:53:21
children. I'd come down on them.
01:53:25
Um but at the moment uh
01:53:28
unless there's a sexual element to it
01:53:30
for the most part uh get off relatively
01:53:34
lightly and of course the child
01:53:36
protection agencies surfs SERs uh the
01:53:40
department of social welfare there have
01:53:42
been so many different variations there
01:53:45
have been so many different iterations
01:53:47
of of these agencies which have time and
01:53:51
time again failed
01:53:52
>> to protect children who were obviously
01:53:57
being abused and they didn't do their
01:53:59
jobs. I'd be firing the people who
01:54:02
didn't do their jobs. Whereas at the
01:54:04
moment, it doesn't appear that they get
01:54:07
they suffer any consequences at all when
01:54:09
they screw up so badly that their child
01:54:13
ends up being maimed or or blinded or or
01:54:20
killed. um and and nothing gets done,
01:54:23
I'd come down on them because that's the
01:54:26
that's the genesis of the problems that
01:54:29
we have later on. The genesis of the
01:54:32
dysfunctional adults is the
01:54:34
dysfunctional childhoods they've had.
01:54:37
>> Yeah.
01:54:39
>> People who've been brought up well
01:54:40
brought up with loving parents and and
01:54:43
care and and cared for,
01:54:47
they tend not to end up in prison.
01:54:51
and they tend up to be product they tend
01:54:53
to be productive citizens.
01:54:55
>> Yeah.
01:54:56
>> So, you know, that's where,
01:54:58
you know, the feminists have focused
01:55:01
heavily on sex crime and and the
01:55:04
government's responded, but the the
01:55:06
whole thing about parenting as a whole,
01:55:11
criminal crimes towards children which
01:55:13
don't carry a sexual element aren't
01:55:15
taken as seriously
01:55:17
>> and it's ridiculous in my view.
01:55:19
>> Yeah. Whenever something happens like a
01:55:20
high-profile one like Kahoui twins or
01:55:23
Nia Glassy like there's no one that's
01:55:25
not outraged by it.
01:55:26
>> Oh, that's right.
01:55:27
>> The the the nation's heart breaks every
01:55:29
time it happens.
01:55:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I would come down
01:55:33
on them and uh
01:55:36
>> but you know Yeah. You can talk all day
01:55:40
about what you would do and what you
01:55:41
wouldn't do.
01:55:42
>> Jeez. Um yeah, you've got stories and
01:55:44
knowledge for days. E I could sit here
01:55:46
talking to you forever. the this this
01:55:48
this young man on the the cover of the
01:55:50
book, Dream Dealer, what would um what
01:55:52
would he make of the 74 year old man
01:55:54
sitting here today? Uh, I'd be quite
01:55:58
surprised that I got so far because I I
01:56:01
never thought that I could ever when I
01:56:03
even when I first entered university as
01:56:06
a as a a lecturer at level three, near
01:56:09
the bottom of the lecturer scale, I
01:56:12
never would have dreamed I could have
01:56:13
ever I never ever imagined that I could
01:56:15
ever have become a professor.
01:56:18
But um I worked hard and uh and I but I
01:56:23
didn't really know the way things worked
01:56:24
in those days either. But um yeah, I
01:56:28
wouldn't have thought
01:56:30
and and at that age of course I you
01:56:34
don't at the age I was only 18 when that
01:56:37
was taken. There was photograph on the
01:56:39
cover of the book was taken the day
01:56:42
before I got sentenced
01:56:44
>> to um uh detention detention in a
01:56:48
detention center. A three-month prison
01:56:49
sentence.
01:56:50
>> Oh, like a youth boot camp.
01:56:51
>> Yeah, a youth boot camp. Yeah.
01:56:54
>> Which is another thing that doesn't work
01:56:56
incidentally.
01:56:58
>> Another another example of history
01:57:01
failed history repeating itself.
01:57:03
>> Yeah. I I think um I I think it's uh
01:57:06
it's the sizzle, not the sausage. Like
01:57:07
people like the idea of it.
01:57:09
>> Yeah, that's right.
01:57:10
>> Every government wants to be tough on
01:57:11
crime.
01:57:11
>> Yeah. Um
01:57:12
>> um so I would have been surprised to see
01:57:14
myself as I am now. Yeah.
01:57:17
>> How do you feel about aging in this
01:57:19
chapter of your life? I read a quote
01:57:20
from you in a staff article like five or
01:57:22
six years ago just when you were packing
01:57:23
up and moving from Christ Church to Bay
01:57:26
of Plenty and you said something like
01:57:27
you've got 10 to 20 good years left.
01:57:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. So today that's down to
01:57:31
that's down to like um 5 to 15.
01:57:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's getting low. Getting
01:57:35
near the end of it.
01:57:36
>> You're sharp though. Like your mental
01:57:38
recall is great and physically you're
01:57:39
fit.
01:57:40
>> Yeah. Physically fit and uh and uh
01:57:43
mentally hoping not to lose the plot too
01:57:46
much in the next 10 years. My memory's
01:57:49
becoming not as good as it was. But uh
01:57:51
>> I don't know. I don't know. You've
01:57:52
mentioned you've dropped you've
01:57:53
mentioned a lot of names today.
01:57:55
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:57:55
>> With I tend to remember longterm things.
01:57:58
I tend to forget short term and my
01:58:00
short-term memory is not as good as my
01:58:03
long-term memory.
01:58:04
>> What are you most afraid of?
01:58:06
>> Uh
01:58:09
of being paralyzed or having a stroke or
01:58:12
something like that.
01:58:12
>> Yeah.
01:58:13
>> You know, you never know what what going
01:58:15
to be what's going to be thrown at you.
01:58:18
>> Um
01:58:19
you know, I had a heart attack earlier
01:58:21
this year. Um I had a stent put in. I'm
01:58:25
feeling a lot better as a result. Feel
01:58:27
real good. I was getting angina when I
01:58:28
was out on the bike. Now I've had the
01:58:30
stent put and I don't get angina
01:58:32
anymore. So I'm happy about that. But
01:58:34
you know a good mate of mine that I was
01:58:36
in prison with Chris.
01:58:38
>> Um he had a stroke last year and and and
01:58:41
is now semi paralyzed down one side of
01:58:43
his body. Has changed his life. You know
01:58:45
I'm bloody worried about that. So I take
01:58:48
all my meds. I do.
01:58:50
>> You're still on the drugs?
01:58:51
>> I do different drugs these days.
01:58:53
>> Take all my drugs.
01:58:56
crushing them up and snorting them or
01:59:01
>> if if everything stopped tomorrow, what
01:59:03
would you be most grateful for?
01:59:05
>> If everything stopped?
01:59:06
>> Yeah. If you dropped dead tomorrow, what
01:59:09
would you be most grateful for out of
01:59:10
this life? Threearters of a century.
01:59:16
>> I'd be happy about uh
01:59:19
about my marriage.
01:59:21
>> How long How long you been married? uh
01:59:22
got married in 20 uh
01:59:25
20
01:59:29
>> oh 2012.
01:59:30
>> Yeah.
01:59:30
>> Yeah. 2012.
01:59:31
>> Jeez. I was I I knew that. I've read 13
01:59:35
years.
01:59:36
>> I say my short-term memory is not so
01:59:37
good, but um yeah, been married. I know.
01:59:40
I've been married. Yeah. But um I've had
01:59:44
uh I've had I've got a really good
01:59:46
relationship with my wife.
01:59:47
>> Wonderful. Is this your second marriage
01:59:48
or your first one?
01:59:49
>> No, my first.
01:59:50
>> Really?
01:59:50
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:59:50
>> Why did you get you got married quite
01:59:52
old then, didn't you?
01:59:52
>> Yeah. Yeah, I was uh 60, I think.
01:59:54
>> Why? How did you 61?
01:59:56
>> How did you get to 60 years without
01:59:57
marrying someone without getting pinned
01:59:58
down?
01:59:59
>> Because I I was a philanderer.
02:00:02
>> A terrible philanderer.
02:00:04
And uh yeah,
02:00:06
>> terrible as you were successful at it or
02:00:08
>> Yeah, I I was unstoppable philander, you
02:00:12
know. I really used to just have always
02:00:16
uh
02:00:17
>> during my un lots of different women,
02:00:19
you know,
02:00:20
>> lots of women and uh
02:00:22
>> and and several at one time normally,
02:00:24
you know,
02:00:26
>> um uh and so I couldn't settle down.
02:00:28
>> Oh, okay.
02:00:29
>> Yeah. I couldn't settle down with one
02:00:31
woman and I didn't see what what what
02:00:33
advantage that would be. And as I said
02:00:35
in the book, I once I reached in my my
02:00:39
about 50, I started thinking it was time
02:00:42
to get serious about girls, you know,
02:00:45
and maybe think about having a cuz it's
02:00:48
got advantages as well, you know.
02:00:51
>> Like George Clooney, not settling down
02:00:53
until your 50s.
02:00:54
>> Yeah.
02:00:55
>> Yeah.
02:00:56
>> Well, it's worked out pretty good. I
02:00:57
It's a lot of life's about timing, isn't
02:00:59
it? The right person at the right time.
02:01:01
>> It's got to be the right That's dead
02:01:02
right. You know, in the past, I had some
02:01:05
lovely girlfriends um who I could have
02:01:08
married had the time been right for me.
02:01:11
>> Um but um when the I got married to a
02:01:16
Chinese woman called Lucy and it's
02:01:19
worked out really well. M um we've had
02:01:22
uh some violent
02:01:27
arguments from time to time because
02:01:29
there is a time but they they sort of
02:01:33
that was early on. You know you you
02:01:35
adjust you adjust to each other and uh
02:01:38
you know what I know not to push her
02:01:41
buttons.
02:01:43
>> Yeah. Who who knows? And and as I said
02:01:46
in the book, I realized I have to accept
02:01:49
how wrong I can be and how often I can
02:01:52
be wrong.
02:01:52
>> Even if you don't necessarily believe
02:01:54
it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just waving that
02:01:56
white flag sometimes. Who Who knows the
02:01:59
real you? She knows the real you.
02:02:02
>> Like the complet you know how
02:02:03
>> I know the real me.
02:02:04
>> Yeah.
02:02:05
>> Nobody is ever completely honest with
02:02:07
their spouse.
02:02:08
>> If you were, you'd never be married.
02:02:09
Yeah.
02:02:11
>> So, you know the real you you you like
02:02:12
when you're standing in front of the
02:02:13
mirror in the morning having a shave,
02:02:14
you like who you see.
02:02:15
>> Yeah. I like myself.
02:02:16
>> Yeah.
02:02:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. I like who I like myself. I
02:02:19
mean, if I didn't like myself, I
02:02:21
wouldn't be the way I was that made me
02:02:23
dislike myself.
02:02:25
>> You know what I'm saying?
02:02:28
>> I think what I think is moral and
02:02:30
correct. And if I if I don't, I I pull
02:02:34
myself up. And there's times in my life,
02:02:36
a couple of times that I can think of
02:02:38
and I don't want to relate them where I
02:02:40
haven't treated people fairly. And I've
02:02:47
and I've regret that for the rest of my
02:02:49
life
02:02:50
>> where I one one occasion I did there was
02:02:53
a when I was in jail we were in this
02:02:55
thing where you had to be
02:02:59
you had to be
02:03:02
knocking was the worst possible thing
02:03:04
worst possible thing. You absolute
02:03:08
an [ __ ] if you ever did that. And
02:03:10
there was a guy in jail who was I liked
02:03:13
a lot who and when I got out of jail
02:03:16
uh someone told me that this guy
02:03:20
there was in a book actually that and it
02:03:23
was a law book and this that this
02:03:25
particular person that Mark that he had
02:03:31
assisted the police
02:03:34
>> now that can mean anything.
02:03:37
That doesn't mean he's an arc.
02:03:40
All it means that he had been cooperate,
02:03:43
not assisted the police. He'd been
02:03:44
cooperative with the police and that it
02:03:48
didn't mean he was an arc at all. It had
02:03:51
couldn't meant anything and he was a
02:03:53
good bloke.
02:03:55
And I wrote a letter to the guys in P.
02:03:59
This joker as cooperated with the police
02:04:04
and he was ostracized in the prison. As
02:04:06
a result of that, he was ostraized and
02:04:09
it was completely unfair of me to do
02:04:12
that and to jump to that conclusion and
02:04:15
make his life a misery. It was a
02:04:18
horrible thing to do and I'm deeply
02:04:21
guilty about it. And he he actually
02:04:23
confronted me one night in the pub after
02:04:25
he got out and he said, "You know what
02:04:27
you did to me and I just I just I just
02:04:31
crushed and I I just felt so sick and I
02:04:37
just I did." And he said, "I'll never
02:04:39
forgive you." And I said, "Well, I don't
02:04:41
blame you. I'm a bastard for doing that.
02:04:43
You know, I should never have done it."
02:04:45
>> And everyone else who was in the jail,
02:04:47
they all flopped in and they they
02:04:49
ostracized them as well. and and I don't
02:04:52
know whether he did anything wrong at
02:04:53
all. It was completely unfair and I hate
02:04:57
myself for it, you know, but
02:05:01
I punish myself every day I think of it.
02:05:03
>> But this says I think a lot about your
02:05:06
character that you're still flogging
02:05:07
yourself about this decades later.
02:05:09
>> Yeah. Well, I was I was in that stink
02:05:12
way of thinking that I got out when I
02:05:13
was in jail. you know that we're all
02:05:16
thinking that we were doing the right
02:05:17
thing if we're pointing out exposing
02:05:20
KNS, you know, but it was over the top.
02:05:22
It was completely unjustified,
02:05:25
>> you know, and you've got to really
02:05:27
you've really you got to flog yourself
02:05:29
over things like that. You can't let it
02:05:31
go and make excuses for yourself. You've
02:05:33
got to face up to the fact that you did
02:05:35
a wrong thing to a person and made
02:05:38
someone miserable.
02:05:40
You know, a terrible thing to do.
02:05:44
How old are you? How old are your
02:05:45
grandkids now? Are they at an age where
02:05:46
have they read the book?
02:05:48
>> No. No. No. They're too young.
02:05:49
>> Too young.
02:05:49
>> Yeah.
02:05:50
>> Yeah. So, they'll read it one day.
02:05:51
>> One day they will they'll read it.
02:05:53
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:05:54
>> Their mother might not let them.
02:05:56
>> If if if they were here, your your adult
02:05:59
kids or your grandkids, and they had to
02:06:01
come up with three words to describe
02:06:03
your character, what three words would
02:06:05
you hope they would say?
02:06:07
Uh, I tell you
02:06:12
I'd tell you I've got an honest heart.
02:06:15
>> That's what I would say. That's one
02:06:17
thing I I I I hold highly and that is
02:06:19
honesty, personal honesty.
02:06:21
>> You know, you'll be true to yourself.
02:06:23
>> Um, and I try to be true to and that's
02:06:27
why there's a lot in that book that
02:06:28
people would be ashamed of and and the
02:06:30
feedback I've had, they said, "You've
02:06:32
been pretty honest about that." Well,
02:06:34
that's the way it was. And if you're not
02:06:36
going to write an honest account of your
02:06:37
life, you might as well not write the
02:06:39
account.
02:06:40
>> Yeah.
02:06:40
>> You might as well write a novel.
02:06:42
>> And that's not a novel. It's a true
02:06:43
account of my life and who I am.
02:06:46
>> Um Jeez, it's a great book. And this has
02:06:49
been a great podcast.
02:06:50
>> Oh, thanks.
02:06:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:06:51
>> It's been really nice to meet and
02:06:53
connect today.
02:06:54
>> Yeah. How's it for you reflecting on
02:06:56
some of the ugly parts of your life?
02:06:58
>> Oh, there's nothing really ugly
02:07:00
>> about it. I I don't really down the ugly
02:07:03
things that couple things I was once
02:07:08
unfair to a girlfriend of mine.
02:07:10
>> Yeah. I hate that.
02:07:12
But
02:07:14
>> got to learn from it, not do it again.
02:07:15
>> I learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. You know.
02:07:18
>> Yeah. But but I've tried to be honest
02:07:21
and fair with people all my life and uh
02:07:23
and so and
02:07:27
the the
02:07:29
my life hasn't my life's been pretty
02:07:31
good and I think I've been pretty fair
02:07:32
to people most of my life.
02:07:35
>> Yeah. And certainly when I was
02:07:38
I I'm pretty pretty happy with the way
02:07:41
I've lived my life in general.
02:07:45
>> Hey well Greg New has been great. Um,
02:07:48
the grandkids are going to hear this one
02:07:49
day. They're going to learn about the
02:07:51
cigar case.
02:07:54
Hopefully, hopefully that happens after
02:07:55
you pass.
02:07:57
But, and hopefully that's many years
02:07:58
from now, too. By the way, hey, this has
02:08:00
been a great podcast. Thank you so much,
02:08:01
mate.
02:08:02
>> Yeah. Thanks.
