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on the domh podcast Justin Marshall welcome to my podcast thanks Dom uh for having me I've
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heard great things and it's very nice to be invited to to come on and have a a
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chat with you and I've even been given a cold beer so you've got me super chilled
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and relaxed and I'm looking forward to um a bit of ban well yeah we were texting backwards and forwards I said
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what what do you want to drink you want some beer or coffee whatever you said oh
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it's Friday afternoon let's go for some beers then I um I got a I uh messaged um
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Cali just to see if he had any stories to bring up with you and then suddenly I thought maybe the beers are a bad idea
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he said um what can I tell you about Justin loves touring he did Tun Up Late for his New
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Zealand Golf Open tea time once John Hart not happy we didn't get invited back from hary I'm sure if that's the
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reason or we got on the piss too much that's not my fault though that is correct but uh I don't think that had
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any influence on Kelly not getting invited back um well that's good he he actually was very reserved because
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usually he'll take the puss out of me for the fact that he always beats me at
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golf and so he should for a guy that plays four times a week um my God he loves it doesn't he he does so yeah no
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there's no reason why he wouldn't um do well out of getting a sort of part-timer
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like me and ambushing me every time um the thing I found interesting about that text is
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um um so you put a book out about 20 years ago I had to look around some secondhand book shops this week to try
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and find it and I couldn't but um the reviews I read about it um apparently you go to town on on John Hart in it
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yeah look I was honest about um the way that I felt uh things transpired particular particularly in 1999 uh and
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we we had a couple of Runnings Hardy and I and we still have since the golf the golf is a classic example you know and
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um you know that that's just I I think the the nature of the beast when you're
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when you're in a all black side and you're one of the in the leadership group and you know you feel strongly uh
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and have a strong opinion you know you should be able to give that opinion um so yeah look I I quite openly um felt
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that the decision to drop me in 99 was a really bizarre one uh you know like at the end of the day since he had been all
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black coach he had picked me for every single test match bar injury all the way through through um his Co his his
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coaching regime and the one time he decides to bench me is a semi-final of the Rugby World Cup and I kind of just
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pleaded my case with them I said I don't think you're making the right decision
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and I'm not being selfish in this but I know that I can deliver what you need me
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to deliver and you need to trust me because I've been with you for four years and we've been through some
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adversity and we've won some test matches that we shouldn't have won and
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I've been part of that and this is no different and I feel that if you are getting something out of Barron ker
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that's um you know something that the team can benefit from then bring them on
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early you know bring them on earlier than the last 20 minutes so yeah all those sorts of things came into into the
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equation and uh obviously I had that big balls up do you remember that down in um
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denen oh I I did not remember that but it's um in my notes where you had to you
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had to go on the home show and make a public apology yes I did I so you you were sent off and you were caught on
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Mike saying this is [ __ ] [ __ ] is what I said right really loudly like that and uh the the the the microphone
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was right there um but but I was fuming because I'd been I'd been hit hard but I was
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okay and and I remember the physio coming on and saying um we feel you're not right and I said I'm I'm right don't
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wor this is this is before um the hiia thing yes yeah yeah but they thought you were concussed or they yeah they thought
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that I was carrying a bit of concussion yeah and um and that equally um that I had a limp because I'd been like I said
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I've been hit pretty hard but I said I'm fine I've worked my way through it I'm
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good to go don't worry I've got this and um the phys came back on and said no I
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think he's going to bring me off I said don't bring me off do not bring me off I
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said I've got control of this and and you know let's talk about it later on in
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the Test match whatever but right now no I'm I'm in this test match and I'm here
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to win and they bought me off yeah and I didn't want to didn't want to go and I
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was like a a kid that had had their Lolly stolen um my my lip went down my head went down my shaking my head I
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don't know how many like shakes of my head I did maybe 50 of them as I was making my way off I glared up at John
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Harton stand gave him a big steer uh and then foolishly you know and then I said
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what I said uh which the whole country hood and and then this I really regret and then I walked up the tunnel and and
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out of the game whereas I should have gone to the the bench and with the rest of the reserves but I was just obviously
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by what I said which got me in the in trouble yeah how did it end up that you had to go on a like a 700 p.m. current
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affairs show and this is when TV was was was big like if you ended up on the home
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show You' done something pretty [ __ ] bad yes how like how did it end up coming to that it seems outrageous under
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today's lens it does but obviously it was um because it was prime time you know we are we are
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the All Blacks there's millions of um people tuning in and equally lots of kids that are hearing that type of
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language it was just the pr machine which you know wants to make sure that the All Blacks um you know look
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respectful look clean and uh and and don't take the game Into The Gutter and
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obviously that type of language when it's heard across the country um they felt that I needed to kind of make it
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better basically I couldn't believe it when they rang me though they were like
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um we we we've looked at this and we um Paul Holmes has said that he will quite
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happily have you on the show uh and you need to go on and apologize I was just like oh for [ __ ]
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sake really um but I I had to do it you know um so yeah look and I'll tell you
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in that changing room afterwards not many people will know this but um John Hart came in and I remember sitting in
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my seat and GE he he tore shreds off me m disrespect a decision that I make and like that ever again um you've
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embarrassed yourself you've embarrassed the team and this was front of the whole
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team I looked around the changing room everyone's heads were down and it was
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really like one of those real awkward situations humiliating yeah yeah very humiliating um but obviously I deserved
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it because it wasn't it wasn't part of what the the culture we had and it
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wasn't part of I I guess the team environment to be an individual like that um and I needed to learn that and I
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needed to I had to go through that quite a bit and grow up and and and and recognize that but I I felt that that
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wasn't the time and place I felt that he needed to probably pull me aside and he
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can shout and scream as much as he wants when we're one-on-one um but doing it in
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front of the whole team he he was sending a message for sure yeah that's humiliating though right yeah a little
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bit Yeah D little bit but I learned but I did learn you know like um I still didn't enjoy getting substituted any
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time I got sub from that dismatch onwards but I refrained from swearing about it and um I I did not ever go back
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up the tunnel um apart from obviously many people have seen this clip when I basically sent myself off cuz uh I was
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playing for the Crusaders against the brumbies and um anyway the story is we we were looking to score with a rolling
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moall and um you know we were pressing pressing the moall was moving forward and the referee at the time Andre Watson
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was um saying scrummy scrummy release it release it 5 seconds and I was going Andre it's still moving forward it's
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still moving forward and he's going no Lisa I said it's still moving forward
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and then he blew his whistle and um said turnover you didn't release the ball and
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so again I um let out some pretty fullon language towards him um and basically I'm seeing a pattern here
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I know I know and um just gave him a real spray real spray and I said yeah you know that's just just we were still
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moving forward you've cost us the game with this decision you've made and there
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was a bit of swearing in amongst it too and um he he so he he stepped away and um he said come here like that and as I
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was walking towards him I saw him going towards his pocket and so I thought he's
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putting me in the bin he's sending me off so I just looked at him and I went
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off [ __ ] like that and said don't worry about it I've had enough anyway and just
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started walking off so I'm walking my way towards the tunnel and uh I I've made about 10 15
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paces and then I hear um George grean go marshy Mary where you going mate cuz he
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was the opposition half back and then I heard Todd black at Mary come back come back mate so I sort of you see me turn
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and I look and I go back and basically I won I called his blood he just told me that um you know told me
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off can't speak to me like that blah blah blah but I stayed on the field so it's like a game of poker it was it was
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so yeah those are the two two instances where I probably um have let the the occasion and the
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significance of of both of those were were completely different one's in the
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all black test match other one were're trying to win a game for the Crusaders
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against very good brumus team I've let that uh control my emotions and and I've
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gone into the red big time so yeah yeah is it um in but have you mellowed with age yeah I have yeah yeah I I've
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certainly again you learn from those mistakes uh and and when they're very public you know everybody makes their
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stuff UPS during life and and and and it's regular but you don't have to deal
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with it publicly when you have to deal with it P publicly and it affects others um you know then I'm talking
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family you know like then that has an effect on everyone you know Mom and Dad wife kids all of that they wear it um
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and then that that you know that Snap-on effect is them suffering as well I I don't know where this quote came from
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but I I saw a quote from um your your wife Nicole um Justin is an exclamation mark not a comma which is a great line
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bang yeah isn't it I wonder where she found that very clever actually it is it's a genius I wish I could claim it
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but I can't it's a genius were you like in reflection were you um I there's there's a reality show
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called below deck and I had this one of the Stars show on the podcast called Asia Scott and she's been accused online
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of being um uh of a thing called toxic positivity and I I wonder with you like were you toxically competitive is that
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is that a thing that's a good way to phrase it or was it was it was it more just like a temper or an anger thing no
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it was it was just over overco competitive you know I I didn't want to not be out there I didn't not I I didn't
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want to have a situation where I can't control and and that was hard for me to
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to get my head around you know I started in the day of am amateur rugby so like you literally didn't get taken off the
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field unless your leg or arm or shoulder or whatever was hanging off substitutes
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were made for people that were injured even had like testicles hanging out exactly exactly and still didn't go off
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so um I'm more of a crybaby Dawn than that I would have been off the field but
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they were there to replace injured players they were not impact players you know that go on and are strategically
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put into the game like they are now so I growing up with that it was really hard
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for me to be playing well you know particularly when you're playing well and you're in the top of your game to
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then be taken off because a lot of rugby and sport in general gets decided in those micro minutes you know that's
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that's where you know a lot a lot of the the the pressure and the the ability to
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to thrive and to to prosper when the game is on the line and experience comes into it that that's where a lot of big
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games are won and then you know for it to for you to be taken out of the the mix and you know that you can help the
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situation was really hard for me to process um but yeah and that was just my competitiveness of wanting wanting to be
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able to do it myself because I knew I could and then when they when they when they take it off me they're taking away
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my mojo and I'm just like you know it's not fair I can do this you know um so yeah
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it's more my my competitiveness look I'm I'm not saying that I didn't um you know
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get angry at times and I did and I got into my fair share of fights as a youngster um which again I had to learn
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from and and it was it was good there were good life lessons in there um and and equally um was involved in the old
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punch up on the rugby too in fact I've got one of these um you did find the book oh know this is Richie's book oh is
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it but there's uh there you yeah jeez jeez yeah you're punching above your weight there yeah I
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know I am punching above my weight but obviously I always do it when I got support you can see I've got more I've
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got two other players around me and he's got no one and I'm like yeah well you
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want to pick on me now mate eh um but yeah no look Carlos and I had like Ali every now and then he would rub me the
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wrong way but Carlos and I you know Crusaders Blues we had some ding-dongs too if you could drag up you know a
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couple of handfuls of photos of him and I at each other's throat um but but the
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weird thing is then mate um we're rooming together so we're at each other
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for for crusaders blues and then they always kind of room you in your sort of zones so 9 and 10 get gets roomed got
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roomed together a lot and I remember having this this real set to with Carlos when we when we were playing and it was
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at Eden Park and um I got asked by Robbie Deans to to pick on him defensively cuz he he was really good at
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going across the back of the rock really deep anyway won't get too technical but
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he said when he does that I want you following him and Ming him and every time he does if he picks out one of our
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forwards and puts some footwork or whatever in it in them and makes a line break you clean them up and this
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happened in the game I cleaned them up a couple of times and um and I said to him
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uh I'll be here all day callus I said you your footwork might work on them but
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it won't on me and I said you'll get tackled and we'll probably turn you over
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uh I said all that all that fancy sidest stepping and all that and um just won't
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come to anything cuz I'm just going to cut you down he said at least I got a
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sidestep mushy I was like oh [ __ ] okay right um so we we have this full- on Battle and
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it rages and rages and then the next thing I'm doing is walking into a hotel
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in Wellington um and Carlos spencec is my roomate and he's I'm like where is he and he's
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he's he's actually in the [Laughter] bath well how to how to meet a man in a
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more vulnerable position I know I know well you know he's obviously he was Mr
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toffee pot wasn't he so he's dered himself probably sprinkled sprinkled some roses around
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scented bit bit like your scented candle here scented candles going and I'm thinking yeah my roommate's having a
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bath and um soak soaking himself is is is that awkward um or is it straight away is it like it's a different team
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what goes on the field yeah it is and everybody um have their indiv individual idiosyncrasies don't they so that's fine
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you let people be who they are and like Carlos to be fair um is an awesome athlete man and uh he he he looks after
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he looked after himself like he was very body not when I say body conscious I don't mean as in you know vain he was
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very much this is my this is my tool you know so he's always very good in the gym
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um always looked after himself nutrition wise like I'd get up and I'd have um
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some toast and um maybe a cup of coffee whatever you know he he was full on with
00:17:11
his shakes and protein and all that creatine whatever it might be I I was old school I didn't get into that but
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yeah you just allow people to be what they are but um now in terms of any of that other stuff like if if I was to
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have walked in and I it's not a problem Dom because people out there don't know
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changing rooms in rugby they're just full of nakedness I mean so the weirdest
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one is Twickenham that is bizarre because they've got at the twickum changing rooms it's the only changing
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room in the world where they have baths so after the game car would have been in his exactly Carlos commanded the
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area but you go in there and you you know just have a quick shower and then there's like they the when the game's
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been played the um your baggage man or whatever will go fill all the the bars up so you got nice hot bars and there's
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about six of them and um you're sort of sitting in this big area underneath the
00:18:04
stands at Twickenham in your changing room having a bath and so a bath but not like a cold plunge like a bath no no no
00:18:09
no a bath bath yeah yeah so that's so English yeah I know so it's quite weird
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though because like to be fair you know you most people have b a bath and privacy don't they yeah it's a it's a
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very yeah it's a very vulnerable thing it is yeah but all of a sudden you're
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kind of sitting next to you know teammates and there's six of you there and you're all having turn having
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a turn to have a hot bath usually sucking on a beer as well but yeah it's very it's it's perceived to be normal
00:18:39
but when you think about it it doesn't sound normal does it imagine walking into that as a as a civilian who just
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goes look at these BLS what are you doing um and is is everyone naked or are there some undy people no there's not
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there's really undy people yeah no it's um it's nakedness but hey if you're in
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the bath you're in the bath you're you're not in the Po and your Speedos I
00:19:00
can't believe this we've gone um 20 minutes and you you've shared some um
00:19:04
like really like embarrassing parts of your past without uh me even having to butter you up for the information um I
00:19:11
didn't even get get to do like a good intro for you like um it was an incredible [ __ ] career right and I
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think one like okay so over 100 games for the Crusaders five titles um second induct D into the Crusaders Hall of Fame
00:19:25
who was number one uh to Black to Black um 81 test uh four is captain Oh but you you lost the
00:19:32
captain after you had an argument with a re oh [ __ ] I did to how did you know that I met online people were going to
00:19:39
listen to this and they go [ __ ] did this guy actually learn or not he's saying he
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learned but continually we're hearing uh eras uh of him getting in trouble with
00:19:50
referees or coaches or whatever where he was perceivably um learning but didn't
00:19:55
yeah this was 25 years ago though it's you know thanks mate half a life ago um
00:20:01
well I didn't lose the captaincy because of that to be fair to stick up for myself I I um I was a caretaker Captain
00:20:08
for sha Fitzpatrick um he was on the tour but he just couldn't he just could
00:20:13
not get on the field as much as he tried poor odd Fitzy his knee was absolutely rooted so um and and it ended his career
00:20:20
he didn't play after that um but I I I got the opportunity to Captain and there
00:20:25
were very there were very much more senior players in that side um that could have captained the team at that
00:20:31
stage but um this was a sort of a look towards the future to see what type of Captain I would be and obviously we
00:20:36
found out but but I didn't lose a test match um and and and um you know we we
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we were successful against Wales Island um and uh we played England twice in in that um particular four November
00:20:52
test matches one at Old Trafford and the second one yeah it um it tooken them yeah it was was it was a tough we we we
00:20:59
played [ __ ] to be fair and the fact that after 80 minutes in that test match we
00:21:03
got this is 1997 if people don't remember that we got away with a draw is a miracle in itself England were a b
00:21:10
side on the day but this is what good all black teams or good sporting teams can do do you still think about these
00:21:17
things now yeah yeah I do yeah so so so the we're recording this um I'm not sure
00:21:23
when the podcast is going to come out but we're recording this in between the
00:21:25
two all black test versus Argentina so they've lost one who knows what's going
00:21:29
to happen tomorrow night so the guys that were playing last weekend they'll they'll still be thinking about this 20
00:21:34
years from now potentially yes they will be yeah and and you think about th that
00:21:38
those off days and those performances that you're not uh you're not comfortable as as as a team and equally
00:21:45
as individuals that are damaging to our history and and that was damaging last weekend and and and to be fair you know
00:21:54
I I wasn't entirely comfortable with the messaging I I didn't like the mess last
00:21:59
week from a lot of what the some of the senior players were saying which was things along the lines of oh well that's
00:22:04
a good thing about rugby we get to play next weekend and put things right I'm
00:22:08
like no you don't you you've already you've already damaged our history
00:22:14
forever you cannot change that by going out and win winning by 50 points next week that's not relevant Argentina has
00:22:21
have done something that only two teams before them have ever done historically against the All Blacks in all of our
00:22:26
history they've beaten us and not only that they've beaten us at home you can't
00:22:32
you can't go out next week and say oh everything's okay now it's impossible so
00:22:37
yeah I feel that that's that that to me was um a bit worrying that that was messaging like the messaging I would
00:22:43
have wanted to hear was about the hurt and the disappointment and the fact that you can't change this result and um you
00:22:51
know you still got to keep your head up but I would have liked to have not heard
00:22:54
the these will'll put it right next week because you can't and uh yeah they they
00:22:59
they will remember that that you can't you can't that that never leaves you
00:23:02
like I lost two Rugby World Cup semi-finals and uh I'm reminded of it quite frequently I can't get it back oh lots
00:23:12
of me of the lots of guys I've played against no the public are pretty good the public are actually pretty good and
00:23:18
um yeah but in general you know like that that's that's two massive opportunities um in my life that I can't
00:23:25
can't get back and and again that you know when I go on podcasts with well podcasts or TV shows or do interviews
00:23:34
with other players do corporate work and we're on the stage a lot of the guys
00:23:37
that I played against through that decade get introduced as World Cup winners but I don't and then they take
00:23:43
the piss out of me for losing two semi-finals so yeah those players will remember that and um you know I remember
00:23:50
that that test match you alluded to very well and uh yeah I did I got marched 30
00:23:55
m by the referee but it's weird because what people see they can't hear so what
00:24:01
they it looks like I'm doing is arguing with the Riff you know because he's made
00:24:06
a couple of shitty decisions against us which he had done Jim Fleming it was and
00:24:11
um my Ford pack are getting annoyed and they they've come to me as Captain and
00:24:16
said I tell you what they he is not refereeing that breakdown fairly if he doesn't start to referee it in the way
00:24:22
that he should and stop them from being illegal and slowing our ball down then we'll do that uh we'll do that en
00:24:28
forcing ourselves and it'll get messy so I just went and told him that I said
00:24:33
mate you need to look at that breakdown better my forward pack is not happy and if you don't start doing your job
00:24:38
properly then they're going to take this into their own hands and then it's going
00:24:43
to really disintegrate bang pinged me 10 m and I said M I'm the captain coming to
00:24:49
you telling you what we are seeing as a team and getting frustrated by bang another 10
00:24:56
m at that point I said i' actually said to him for [ __ ] sake what are you doing this for this is supposed to be
00:25:03
communication that a captain can have with a referee yeah boom so yeah 30 I think it was 30 met that he marched me
00:25:10
so but yeah then tame Randall came he was injured at the time and he came back into rugby um the next year and took
00:25:17
over the captaincy but Dom if you if I'm being honest um I I don't I I didn't
00:25:24
feel I was a bad Captain um I felt that I had a good understanding of the the game and game plan game management um
00:25:30
probably wasn't that great with dealing with referees cuz I could see things
00:25:34
happening in front of me as a nine that frustrated me but I don't think it was
00:25:38
it was meant for me to be to be a captain particularly of the All Blacks the pressure that that that entails the
00:25:46
the freedom that it takes away from you I think I'm I was a better player been
00:25:50
able to express my competitiveness on the field and not have to deal with those peripheral things cuz you can
00:25:55
still control a game as a nine game manage it because that's your role without actually having the captain C's
00:26:02
arm band so the good thing that I can say is that I proudly kept kept in my country and I was incredibly proud and
00:26:09
it was a huge honor and I feel I didn't let again anyone down we didn't lose a
00:26:14
test match yeah um Drew one one3 came out of it unscathed it's a it's a massive on it um yeah we'll get back
00:26:23
into that um we launched stranded some stranded some gold here right let's go all the way back there
00:26:30
the the early years cuz there's um there's a quote by Aristotle that says
00:26:33
give me a boy until he's seven and I will show you the man so first first few
00:26:38
years of your life what were they like so you're from Gore I'm from I'm from
00:26:42
matara but um yeah if people are looking on the map and can't find Mata because
00:26:47
it's written really small and it's a very small town then basically say the
00:26:50
gore area um but yeah no I I grew up there grew up there and um and and went to school there uh and that's where I
00:26:59
did all of my schooling uh right through until when I left when I was um 16 but I wasn't enjoying school so I
00:27:07
bailed out and went went straight into work but yeah those I guess like any kid growing up around that time and you'll
00:27:14
be similar um you know there there was a completely different life style in front
00:27:19
of you wasn't there which was not revolving around any form of technology I think the first time I ever saw
00:27:25
technology was one of those um Nintendo things that you plugged into TV that you
00:27:29
could play tennis with with the bar oh yeah one of the really early gaming consoles yeah and then I think
00:27:36
Pac-Man came out I was like man this how good Pacman bloody hell this is awesome um so yeah that so you had to
00:27:44
make your own fun and entertainment but uh you know I kind of was always involved in rugby but I was only
00:27:50
involved with it because my mates were and I I enjoyed playing it um and and in general I was I was pretty good at
00:27:56
school um very famous for uh being the fastest at Intermediate School at the six times
00:28:05
table really had to get up on stage and do the the six times table do it want me
00:28:10
do it for you no not really okay 12 63's 80 6 4 24 65 3 6 6 36 67 42 68 48 69 54
00:28:18
16 60 it's like the worst part cuz it doesn't mean you're good at maths it just means you've you memorized
00:28:26
the the Cadence of I have yeah memorized it it was a proud moment for me like striding up there with my shirt out and
00:28:33
my tire around my head no no no um onto the stage and uh Justin Marshall's going
00:28:38
to do the six times table very quickly everybody a little round of applause hey Justin want turn the seven times table
00:28:43
no no no I'm a SE specialist hey we don't we don't go above sex you know so
00:28:48
okay so you're you're a good kid um good good at rugby but not not like a
00:28:53
freakish Talent not like okay and you were um you were like a delinquent or that come later that came a little bit
00:28:59
later I think probably um around the time I got to high school I started to recognize very quickly that it's this is
00:29:08
a weird situation that that I was because I was when I say I wasn't amazing at rugby I was good at rugby so
00:29:17
I was always playing in teams above my age um and so because of that I was socializing with older kids so they were
00:29:27
too sometimes 3 years older than me um at school so they they were obviously um evolving from sort of you know teenagers
00:29:37
into kind of men to a degree and and you know rather than drinking a soda drinking a beer and stuff so I was kind
00:29:45
of walking in their footsteps because I was playing in those Rugby teams and I didn't play for the school which keeps
00:29:51
you in in your in your Zone in your lane I stayed and played for the club that's
00:29:56
why you'll never find any Me featuring in any secondary schools rugby I never
00:30:00
played I stayed and played for the club and we played against the school um so yeah look uh we um look famously and I
00:30:10
know and I know this sounds bad but like everybody has stories where you go oh well that obviously just was the way it
00:30:16
transpired on the day and is what it is um and and you know you you you again you you think about it and you think
00:30:22
well how bad does this sound but actually it happened and I'm never been one that holds back from saying yeah we
00:30:28
did that um and that happened and and life goes on and there was no harm done but yeah we I remember we we one game we
00:30:36
were driving to tanel from the tower which is about a 2 2 and a half hour drive um and we had a bus and we had a
00:30:42
keg to drink after the game for the bus trp back but then somebody thought it was a good idea to open The Keg on the
00:30:48
way up to the game so so obviously I know I know I know so yeah obviously you know you have
00:30:57
situations like that and um you know you kind of regrettably obviously the game ended
00:31:04
in a fight and got C off but um I think you know that that was that was where um
00:31:11
my balance was off I was I was starting to get noticed and so we're talking now
00:31:16
you're just out of intermediate leading into high school so everything else leading up to them was pretty normal um
00:31:22
where my balance was off between you know putting the right amount of time and focus into my sport
00:31:28
uh cuz I was still playing Cricket at the time too which I really enjoyed um but it was equally I was playing I was
00:31:33
only 16 17 playing with you know 28 29 30 year olds uh so you know you were always you know going going and
00:31:40
socializing with them too so it kind of was where I was a little bit distracted by the sociability rather than staying
00:31:49
focused with the the F the first thing I should have been thinking about which was was playing the sport you know yeah
00:31:56
um and and you can once you once you get into that sort of situation and again you know there's not a lot to do you'll
00:32:02
know this mate you're from palon North that's genuinely genuinely one of the
00:32:06
Bogan towns of oh okay on that's hurtful that's that's the the home of
00:32:11
your wife as well so I won't have you disrespecting pal well she doesn't
00:32:15
really offer too much rebuttal I do say it's a bit of a a Bogan Town um you know
00:32:21
we we all had our all had our old datson and you know hqs and all that around but
00:32:29
again like mate there's no there was no movie theaters or bowling alleys or you
00:32:33
know any any of that sort of thing in the general area where I was like you had to go to the Big Smoke in Bago if
00:32:38
you wanted to do that so you made your own sort of entertainment you know but I supp there's only so much um I mean you
00:32:46
look back now and the trouble you got into it's kind of cute really on the big
00:32:50
scheme of things you're not Ram rating and no geez no no no no nothing what place so you got in trouble one um one
00:32:56
Christmas holidays for buying buing booze with your mate's ID yes I did yeah
00:33:01
I did vau Murphy did you does he still wheel out the yarn does he love it yeah yeah he does yeah
00:33:08
no that was that was bad though because I 10 dozen beers I was yeah and I was the youngest and they said the the other
00:33:14
guys who were illegal to go get the beer thought that they needed to see whether
00:33:18
or not I could step up so they said take Vaughn's fake ID and go get us so everyone gave me their money CU it was
00:33:25
Christmas holiday period um and we were staying at the camping ground in Queenstown go go get get us our supply
00:33:31
of beers you know and so I I went in and then I came out with the guy accepted my
00:33:37
fake ID and I came out and standing right in front of me was a police officer and he said to me uh that's
00:33:43
quite a lot of beer for you I said oh it's not for me it's from my mates as
00:33:47
well he said right he said um are you legally um old enough to buy that beer I said yeah he said let me see your ID
00:33:54
please so I gave it to him and he said right Mr [Music] Murphy so what's your birthday and I
00:34:01
said the I think I said the the the 11th of the 11th of the 10th um 58 or whatever I said actually the 10th or the
00:34:10
11th he said oh you don't know your birth dat now do you which one is it Mr Murphy and I went
00:34:17
oh uh he said this is not your ID is it he said I'll give you one opportunity he
00:34:23
said where this could either have you down at the police station or us solving this problem now so I said yeah okay
00:34:31
it's not mine um so he confiscated the beer and um I think I got a warning uh
00:34:37
but yeah the worst thing was having to go back to the car we're all and they
00:34:43
were like uh where is the bear and I was like well if we want to get it it's down
00:34:47
at the local police station F I'm sure you're pretty Keen not to go get it from
00:34:51
there so yeah that was that was obviously a bit disappointing but no in general um was that like the West
00:34:57
trouble you got them pretty much yeah no I got into trouble uh for throwing acorns at um cars when they were driving
00:35:03
past and the police St police police came and got us for that um I thought that was you know pretty minor to be you
00:35:11
know be involved with the police for throwing acorns at C Small Town Police there's not there's nothing else for
00:35:18
them to do um but no the the the the big um which is well documented which I talk
00:35:24
very openly about is is when I got into got into to um it wasn't even a fight
00:35:30
into uh and a issue at a pub and and Gore and it was a it was a life-changing experience for me that was um it was a
00:35:39
bad assault on my behalf and um you know the victim at the time hadn't done anything wrong um it was just me uh
00:35:48
overindulging and um thought that he had said something to me which he hadn't and
00:35:53
um yeah I assaulted him and uh the police got involved involved and um it was a bad because it was a bad assault
00:36:02
um you know they were talking jail time and they were going after me very hard the
00:36:07
police uh very scary time very very quickly um a massive reality check of things are spiraling out of control here
00:36:17
uh and you're not only jeopardizing what you're probably doing in rugby which was
00:36:21
that was the that it was part of the other thing I again I was getting frustrated because i' actually made a
00:36:28
decision to move out of the area to go try and play a better style of rugby which was down in Southland play for a
00:36:36
bigger Club um and a lot of people didn't like didn't like that I got I used to cop quite a bit of you know
00:36:44
criticism and you know small town toy thing thinking you're better than what
00:36:48
you are that's right yeah and you know why don't you stay and play around here
00:36:51
you know blah blah blah you know um so you know that that that frustration I think just um um on this particular
00:36:59
evening and there was a few things said because there was another Rugby Club that were in town um or in the same Pub
00:37:04
and there was a few things said but it had nothing to do with this with with the victim at all not completely not his
00:37:10
fault um and and then it just something happened and something inside me just you know so that that that was hard mate
00:37:19
I was in a bad place for that um like I said the police were really after me big
00:37:24
time um and uh you know that a lot of the I was getting we were getting phone calls at home um from Friends of the guy
00:37:32
and and people saying that they were going to get me and all that sort of stuff had the police after me half the
00:37:37
town after me um but but I always feel that it was really pivotal moment in my life to recognize that that I had lost
00:37:50
control and that I was very close to if I got through this I was very close to losing everything I'd worked so hard for
00:37:59
so that that that was that was probably the Catalyst for me getting to where I am today how how old were you then uh 18
00:38:09
18 wow so four years later you're in the old blacks yeah yeah yeah what how was
00:38:14
that time for your your parents like were they were they were they mad or disappointed they were disappointed and
00:38:19
mad initially um and you know what have you done um and then obviously they were
00:38:22
dealing this is old there's no cell phones mate so it was a home phone that was ringing you know
00:38:27
old school BL hell no caller idea yeah yeah uh no that's it so yeah but then
00:38:33
they fair play they um they were incredibly supportive you know I think they saw that I recognized I'd done
00:38:41
something really bad and really wrong um by my reaction and the way that I was Within Myself and I think you know
00:38:48
because I was getting it from everywhere um like I said from from all angles I needed I needed that support um and they
00:38:56
were very supportive of me you know even though they knew that what I'd done was
00:39:00
wrong which was good because it helped me get through it yeah yeah it's probably like um almost like a Scared
00:39:06
Straight sort of situation it's probably what what you needed at the time you
00:39:09
needed a you know what it is yeah but I just wish that that never happened you know like I I regret it to this day um I
00:39:15
have the the most amount of Sympathy for the person that I did it to and the way
00:39:20
that he handled himself um after it and the way that uh he um approached it um was you know
00:39:32
incredibly commendable you know like I don't think I would have been able to to
00:39:37
to to do that and to move on like he did and um yeah I do um a a great amount of
00:39:43
gratitude because he he probably helped me get to get to this point as well by being the person that he
00:39:50
was you know one thing one thing I think that's um that really cool about about
00:39:55
you so far is um like just how willing you like part of the human experience is is [ __ ] up yeah it and no one wants
00:40:03
to own that stuff because it's it's unpleasant yeah um but you've surrendered the stuff yeah yeah and and
00:40:10
I think that's important though because I think you're right everybody does [ __ ] up at some stage and and you
00:40:17
do have you do you know you either wake up in the morning or you you you you sit
00:40:23
sit down and actually think about what you've just done and how it's happened
00:40:28
and you're instantly filled with regret and worry and fear and and and all of
00:40:32
that um or equally you're seeing this pathway and you're finding you're trying
00:40:37
to find a way out of it and you can't see the way out and it's incredible if
00:40:41
you actually look how much support there is out there and I think probably giving
00:40:45
giving the messaging which I'm quite open in doing uh hopefully if there are others
00:40:52
in a similar situation or are in that situation now and hear me speak about it and how it changed me that it can change
00:40:59
them I think that's important you know that you that people you can be in a hole but you actually can get out of
00:41:05
that hole with the right with the right people around you with the right support
00:41:09
and equally with your own determination you know and and and realizing that you you can be a better person yeah is it's
00:41:17
key I think yeah but at that point rugby wasn't like a um like a pathway out of
00:41:23
out of um the Deep South for you it was still amateur that so you were working at freezing work yeah I was working the
00:41:28
freezing work what were you doing there uh I started on uh on the Broom um which
00:41:33
is just sweeping up all the the crap that falls off all the carcasses um the smell must have been awful oh yeah get
00:41:39
used to it like anything but yeah initially it is it's bit of a bit of a realization that um you know when you go
00:41:45
along that that that it isn't a smell that you want to um have dealt with regularly before um and then I moved on
00:41:51
to the gut trays so basically that's where the animal comes along and you're
00:41:55
standing along there's about a a revolving um sort of uh bench full of trays
00:42:03
aluminium trays and the the guys they they they they gut the animal and then all that gets put on the tray and you're
00:42:10
separating the kidneys and the heart and then teses and all that and putting them
00:42:14
into different different areas and and then I actually ended up um getting onto the knife and um went through all most
00:42:21
of most of the uh chain of all the butchering butchering requirements of of an animal right from down the slaughter
00:42:29
board right through down to the boning room when you're when they yeah so it
00:42:33
was it's quite cool um one my one of my lines that I used to say when that when
00:42:39
I was young and um you know young and enthusiastic and and you're out and about was um you're in and you're in a
00:42:46
bar you know everyone's got a line haven't haven't they I talking to to a
00:42:50
girl they would say oh what do you do and I said I'm a professional boner when we leave here you want to come to
00:43:00
the boning room but yeah no so um again it was uh it was good because it was um you know
00:43:11
when I when I first made the All Blacks and I know I'm jumping forward with with
00:43:15
your notes but I think everything's messaging is when I first made the All Blacks uh we I went on the first ever
00:43:23
paid trip uh tour the game hadn't turned Pro but at the end of 95 the All Blacks
00:43:28
decide the All Blacks could sense the game turning professional and so we got paid to go on that tour um which was in
00:43:37
1995 to France um and Italy and every every person got paid by the by the new AR Union to go on that trip so up until
00:43:45
then the game was amateur you weren't making money out of un I'd already been
00:43:47
an all black um at that stage but we were earning money off tickets and we got per DMS per day that's that's all we
00:43:55
got so now we're all so we get a lump sum of money now to go back and jump back which is why I'm telling this story
00:44:02
is I know we got I remember we got paid $30,000 to go on that trip um and we're
00:44:07
away for seven weeks I think it was CU we played midweek games as well and I remember getting that money into my bank
00:44:14
account $330,000 and it made me instantly think about how much work standing on concrete
00:44:23
blood guts and sweat that I used to have to do at the freezing work big long days
00:44:28
and I never earned that much money in a calendar year let alone be given it in one lump sum you know and and for me
00:44:36
that that was very much appreciative of what I was been given because I know what it's like to work for that or try
00:44:43
and work towards even earning that and I hadn't been able to do that in my entire
00:44:47
life and all of a sudden I got it in one big lump some for going perceivably going to work or just playing rugby for
00:44:56
6 weeks but took me back to the freezing works because I knew what the value gr yeah and I knew what the grind was like
00:45:01
to have to earn that money so again that was good for me so I never spent any of
00:45:05
that the only thing I bought at the time with that money because I'd always wanted one was a five burner gas
00:45:14
barbecue I was thinking um I thought you get B like a sabar h Prelude or something I only
00:45:21
heard if people remember way back then the barbecues and you probably remember that they when they first come out the
00:45:26
gas ones or just a little round disc with with a little small gas bottle underneath them yeah yeah yeah um and
00:45:32
and I I had one of those but uh whenever I would go and cook my barbecue say I was with my dad who had actually gone up
00:45:38
a level to the next barbecue which was the three burners or two burners or whatever instead of just the little
00:45:44
round aluminium one is I I got got became known as The Onion cooker so on my little barbecue I was only allowed to
00:45:51
cook onions you run out was doing the steak and the and the Sausages or whatever so when I got that money I was
00:45:58
like right I'm getting rid of the onion cooker and I'm stepping it up to a five
00:46:01
burner but I I didn't spend any of the rest of it cuz I knew I knew what it takes to to have to earn that money
00:46:08
where where did that financial literacy come from cuz others went so lucky like you
00:46:13
I've heard so many stories from others about Jonah like just being generous to
00:46:17
a fault and yeah buying cars for younger players and yeah stopping on the bus in
00:46:22
a town and going to electric and buying ghetto blaster oh my God mate when we in
00:46:28
palon North we those camps that I was telling you that we used to have there um at The Institute I remember Jonah
00:46:36
coming cuz he had obviously driven from Wellington so we're assembling for the
00:46:39
All Blacks and I was already there and I came out of my room and I was like the hell is that and then I could and I was
00:46:47
like so I stopped walking and Stood Still and then I could hear it and I was going like what the hell is that and
00:46:55
then I could see what out in the distance you know still a kilometer at least away Jonah's car and it was tinted
00:47:03
down to the max pimped up but he had his whole back seat was two huge big speakers he had them customly put in
00:47:10
there and they were they were basically just big super woofers or whatever and yeah you could hear him coming from a
00:47:16
million miles away that's already he had the world record for the loudest car or
00:47:20
yeah generous to h j actually yeah when I I eventually didn't Splash out and
00:47:25
bought a boat one year because Jonah was sponsored by Fusion that a speaker company and they were also a marine
00:47:32
brand and um he he just sent me down he said oh you got a boat oh I'll get you
00:47:36
some f Fusion gear and it just turned up you know I didn't ask for it didn't ask
00:47:41
for it for free didn't he just sent it cuz we'd been chatting about it he said
00:47:45
oh they do Marine stuff and boom it just turned up you know so yeah very generous
00:47:49
um where did uh that come from Dom I'm not sure I I think I was like any kid
00:47:55
when I when you were growing up at that time to a degree a lot of my mates as well where I got bloody [ __ ] scared of
00:48:00
going to the ATM not knowing if there's going to be any money on my card you
00:48:05
know putting putting fuel in the car was always was always stressful um you know
00:48:11
like it it was money wasn't easy to come by it you know you you worked hard and
00:48:16
you earned money but then you had other overheads that you had to you know my my
00:48:19
dad taught me you know Roy early he he charged I remember him charging me bored and I was like what he said no now
00:48:27
you're working you'll pay Bor if you're staying here it'll cost you a shitload
00:48:29
more than a flat I was like I don't think it will goes your mom still makes your bed washes your clothes we provide
00:48:36
the food and you're earning so you pay board it really that was a really good
00:48:41
lesson for me because you know when I did look at and hear from my mates who were out of their living with their mom
00:48:46
and dad cuz let's you know like I said I was 16 17 so still wasn't really away
00:48:51
from the home so it wasn't that weird living with my mom and dad when I wasn't
00:48:54
23 or 24 no offense to anybody out there please if they Place imagine calling yourself a
00:49:02
professional boner then got to be quiet cuz M and dad in the exactly exactly I know had yeah did have its setbacks
00:49:09
didn't it but um yeah so I I I kind of feel that uh it just gave me a real Edge
00:49:17
in knowing that when that um money did come in I appreciated what it was like to not have it uh so yeah I didn't
00:49:26
really go out and and spend it um ridiculous ridiculously because uh yeah you never know when that
00:49:34
flow is going to stop as well that's that's the one thing you know like that's smart though isn't it yeah smart
00:49:40
for young fellow because it' be very easy to you know blow go yeah I was um in palmon hanging out with um Christian
00:49:47
a bit at that time so he was in the same set of position he was quite smart with
00:49:51
his money as well I think he got it from his M and his M and his dad he's always
00:49:54
been very good at that and I think a lot of the the the guys that came through kind of amateur and he was right
00:50:01
on the cusp of that into professionalism um we didn't know at that stage where the game was going to
00:50:09
go there was this real a cloudy kind of future for the game like we were just dipping our toe
00:50:17
into professionalism so you never really knew where it was ever going to end up and whether or not it was going to be
00:50:24
sustainable so you know the money that you were earning like in 3 years time of frug went you know what it's not worked
00:50:30
you know that if you hadn't saved that then you had nothing and yet you'd lost
00:50:34
three years of your working life so you had to around that time just work within the the the um the requirements
00:50:42
of the time which was which was basically your contract and that's a hard thing like
00:50:47
I for the all of my life since I left the freezing Works um and I'm 15 now um
00:50:57
oh 51 two weeks ago oh thanks are you are you embarrassed about saying your age why are you yeah I feel that um I'm
00:51:05
over the hump now wasn't too bad when I was in the 40s 50 I had a a big booze up
00:51:10
and kind of thought okay all right you know um that's 50 now and it's done but
00:51:14
51 is like you're on that other side of 100 aren't you you're on the downward
00:51:19
slide so second half I don't feel that though you know and so I'm reluctant to
00:51:24
say that on that age I don't know why but um yeah so that that that's you know
00:51:29
that's that's something that I kind of um have had to deal with in the last
00:51:34
couple of weeks but I'm okay um where was I going with what was I talking about before um lost my train of thought
00:51:40
I don't know we were talking about the money side of things but um oh no no no
00:51:43
so yeah sorry I know what it was um is being being 51 but since I left the freezing works I have dealt my entire
00:51:52
life living by terminal contracts so that's hard yeah yeah yeah so I when I retired from rugby I retired at
00:52:03
36 um I I got my first contract at 19 with rugby then retired at 36 and then I went straight into working for Sky TV on
00:52:12
a contract and none of those have been any longer than 4 years and some of them like now is a terminal um next year uh
00:52:22
so you're always living by this uncertainty you know you're not actually
00:52:27
employed you you're at you're at the the Peril of your contract it's a hard way
00:52:32
to live you're literally only as good as your last game or last yeah yeah so yeah
00:52:38
I've lived my entire life by contracts and and some of them when I was getting
00:52:42
in my late 30s with rugby were one year two years um and then equally you know in TV like I said none of them been
00:52:49
longer than four so you kind of like don't know what the future holds beyond
00:52:53
that little period of your life yeah you renew and then you that's but but but
00:52:59
you're always aware of it so I think that kind of makes you a bit guarded around
00:53:05
being yeah yeah exactly overly expansive and um you're spending there's always
00:53:10
half code of fullback on yeah yeah there is yes there is absolutely oh he's the
00:53:15
boner exactly he's back look out um so um yeah recall the the news when you first made the old blacks so you're 22
00:53:24
years old are you in the a Super Rugby thing at that time was this pre okay so you're playing Super Rugby H do you do
00:53:32
you get a f no no sorry no Super Rugby was the next year okay so 9 I was playing Canterbury rugby okay and we had
00:53:38
the ramly shield that year 995 yeah yeah who's in the team who are some of the
00:53:42
players on the team that year Todd black yeah Todd blackader um Andrew Mertens we
00:53:48
had the the four M Marshall mton mayor Hoffler and Matson T Matson um darl Gibson was in that team
00:53:57
um we said Paul aballe on the wing um that year we had Mike Brewer Richard low um you know Tod blackhead you mentioned
00:54:07
some great players that that deserve more accolades like Angus Gardner um uh so yeah we we had we had a very good
00:54:14
side Matt ston Mark Hammet um so yeah um I think probably 995 uh we were very lucky because we had
00:54:24
the Renfield shield with Lancaster Park me and for the I think five Shield games
00:54:28
that we had that year we didn't have a crowd less than 30,000 people place unreal [ __ ] rocking like absolutely
00:54:37
pumping you know and the whole ground was packed because there was no professional rug there's no super R
00:54:43
there's nothing so we were running out to these huge crowds and we had the raner shield which was the biggest
00:54:49
trophy in the game and we had some big defenses that year as well you know and the last one was ockland so it was a
00:54:55
cool year but the reason I mentioned it was because it's big profile so I've always said a lot of and
00:55:04
and and I'm not trying to be the humble guy by saying this and make people go oh
00:55:07
you know it's so nice um I know you've already painted a picture yeah I certainly have um was was I say that I
00:55:17
was lucky because of the the way that things kind of fell in place for me yes I still had to make things happen but
00:55:24
going you know play I played in a very good under 19 team a very good um New Zealand under 21 team then when I went
00:55:30
to canb I I fell into a team that was um full of really good players but equally
00:55:35
had the r for his shield and then I was playing alongside Andrew mton you know so all of that that that is really high
00:55:42
profile and and so you know if you can play well um you're playing well on a
00:55:47
really functionable team and and a team that's getting maximum um profile TV
00:55:53
exposure everything exactly so I was just very lucky that that those sides and when I went into that all black side
00:55:59
um in '95 uh again it was an incredible side you know like and we went on to to do
00:56:07
great things in '96 and 97 I think we only lost one test match in in those two
00:56:11
years so yeah it was it was unexpected given all that that I've told you I wasn't expecting to be named I I felt
00:56:18
that I'd played well again I'd been in a good side but when they were talking
00:56:23
about all black announcement I I had considered myself um to be part of that the only thing that's weird about that
00:56:33
year is a 95 was the 95 R World Cup um which obviously the famous poisoning incident and then the
00:56:43
Joel strany drop goal everyone thinks that I was Part of That World Cup team but I wasn't you only lost two not three
00:56:50
yes exactly not three far out stop picking on me no and um so I I I I came in postor cup uh and an Strawn
00:57:02
and Graham bash two of the halfbacks that were at that World Cup went to Japan so there was vacancy so again
00:57:09
lucky you know that those two decided to go and and play their rugby in Japan and
00:57:14
so they they needed they I think the only other one that had been involved with the All Blacks around those around
00:57:20
that time um was Stu Foster so they took me Stu Foster and Junior tonu on that and John Preston as a kind of
00:57:28
hybrid you know because JP could play Anywhere um so I think again I I even though I those two guys had left I
00:57:37
wasn't expecting to be named I I if it was if I was looking at me I would have
00:57:43
thought there's really good potential there I had played really well I will say that I had played very well um and
00:57:49
that and that team and in that side and in those games apart from the Oakland game um where I learn learned you know
00:57:55
learned a bit about myself in that game we lost the ranfield shield comprehensively on that day um and and
00:58:02
as a player I got rattled in that game but you know that aside I'd played well
00:58:07
but I felt that I was probably just needed another year if I was looking at me yeah why why did you get rattled in
00:58:12
that game cuz zinny and Fitzy picked on me they picked on me mat cuz obviously what I'd come out of
00:58:23
nowhere yeah yeah now this is the this is the this is where um I I had I you know people Sledge yeah and sledging is
00:58:34
an art form and the and the most famous for it in the world obviously the Aussie
00:58:37
cricketers aren't they I I'd say the best rugby line ever would go to your
00:58:41
mate George George GRE four more years was that that was no that was K yes it was yeah best ever hurtful but also
00:58:49
factually correct yes it is Big Time um I said how that what so Z Zen and FY were picking so they were our heaps yeah
00:58:56
so I i' come across seding in my time and I wasn't um adverse to doing it
00:59:01
myself as well but I hadn't come up against a couple of professional sledgers like Zin and Fitzy and uh yeah
00:59:08
they they literally because again I'd come out of nowhere and it was my first
00:59:12
breakout season they they just I think they knew that you know being the link um that if they could rattle me um it it
00:59:22
would affect our cohesion you know when when the N when your Nine's head is frying it has an effect on the team
00:59:30
Dynamic and yeah they basically they were just calling me um a little school boy
00:59:37
oh when you go in at half timee um little baby um change your nappy you know like put a new set of nappes on um
00:59:46
you've obviously like you've obviously like [ __ ] these ones three time in
00:59:52
this and uh they said oh you're so out of your depth why why don't you just go
00:59:56
back and you know and play Club rugby and um yeah just they just did a number on me to be fair and uh I remember it
01:00:06
very vividly taking my focus away from what was in front of me to what they were saying so worked it worked no it
01:00:13
worked I didn't have a terrible game but I didn't get anywhere near the level
01:00:17
that I'd been playing to before and uh I I do I do always look back on that game
01:00:23
and think um you know function if I had not been rattled we might have not necessarily got a better result but we
01:00:30
might have been in the game more because we were comprehensively outplayed that day can't believe you still um even
01:00:38
consider these things now yeah it pisses me off like I'm like it annoys me that I
01:00:45
I I did fall into the the Trap they set for me and I and I went into it with open arms and and you know like I would
01:00:52
have loved for us to have still had that R Shield at the end of 1995 yeah but I I
01:00:57
could understand if if that was the if that was the line and the sand of the Justin Marshall story but you you you
01:01:02
had a fantastic rugby career you've got a uh a fantastic media career now this
01:01:08
is just like a I don't know like an 80-minute game way back in the 95 just one sentence in a whole book of the
01:01:14
Justin Marshal story but I can tell it deletes you up now yeah it does and I can tell you I can tell I could I I
01:01:20
could Regal many of these instances and um situations and games where like so I was one of those guys that didn't I
01:01:31
didn't need to analyze my game like we we got when when the game turned Pro we
01:01:36
we got the computer ST in front of us and it was like sit down and let's look
01:01:40
at the performance look at your own indivis they were all clipped down and all that sort of caring and I could
01:01:44
literally say the coach I don't need to I can tell you in the 13th minute when I
01:01:48
went went to the right I shouldn't have gone that we it was better option to go
01:01:52
to the left um you know equally that pass and the you you know 58th minute um it was high and it cost
01:01:59
us I could remember the game and recall the game like that no no problem I didn't need and I I I actually said to a
01:02:09
couple of my coaches and they they never believe me because they thought that I was just trying to avoid it which I
01:02:14
wasn't I said I don't want to um put a video clip Up or you to put a video clip
01:02:22
Up in front of me that gives me an excuse because that's what time can do because reality and time that you see on
01:02:30
a TV screen is not what you have when you're making that reaction on the Rugby
01:02:35
field and you could see on a video clip to give people an example if I'm defending and there's two guys coming at
01:02:43
me and you can see that there's a little bit of hes there's a little bit of
01:02:47
hesitation and then I fall off the tackle but what they can do is then say but you weren't um it wasn't your man
01:02:53
you weren't in the right position and I can say it [ __ ] was my man and I just
01:02:58
was slightly off and that was my tackle but the imagery that you see will show different it's like no it's like but I
01:03:05
know in my mind that that was my tackle and I always felt that that gave an excuse
01:03:12
for uh for you to say you know not my fault but I always knew when it was my fault when I'd done wrong when I had
01:03:20
taken the wrong wrong option and all I Would S say to myself after the games is I wouldn't watch I've never watched any
01:03:26
of my games never my mom and dad recorded every single one I've got VHS can you I don't know if you're ever
01:03:35
play that yeah they should get those converted before they before they become obsolete I think you can do that onto
01:03:42
DVD or yeah even like a USB now yeah yeah um wow I never because I I I can I can recall them and
01:03:50
and um I never needed needed any reinforcement I never needed to know what happened in the game because I was
01:03:57
in the game I played it so but there have you watched YouTube highlights like I I watched like a 20 minute Justin
01:04:04
Marshall highlights package on YouTube the other day it's [ __ ] amazing like
01:04:08
there's you passing the ball to Joon or him running through a few people then
01:04:10
passing it back to you there's some you know there's some great moments there
01:04:15
yeah you can't even watch the good no I don't I don't I'm not one that's I don't
01:04:20
really look at any of that stuff no which is which is unusual I guess because it's always nice nice to see
01:04:26
what you've done and what you've achieved in the game and and big moments
01:04:30
and special moments but again I can remember them anyway uh you know like the game in 2000 which they called the
01:04:36
game of the century you know like and I scored a try in that game I've seen what
01:04:41
was that game that was against Australia in 2000 yeah where we we won in the last
01:04:45
minute Jonah scored a try it was 4341 I think it was I think we went we went out
01:04:50
210 after um I don't know like 11 minutes or something and then they came back and
01:04:56
then it was ding dong it was amazing game of rugby um but I've I've seen the
01:05:01
imagery of me scoring the try um that I scored in that game and that but I've
01:05:06
never watched that test match um in its entirety um but I I could tell you exactly what happened in it you know so
01:05:13
yeah it's quite quite um quite now that I think about it unusual that I I haven't looked to to have a look at any
01:05:20
of that stuff but I just haven't yeah and what were the um I'm just trying to
01:05:25
think of you because you're in the fortunate position of having been in all black in this time and also um like
01:05:30
being a pundit now and probably having your ear fairly close to the ground with the ORS um what are the what are the big
01:05:36
differences between then and now like I'm thinking um like during the World Cup last year there was that incident
01:05:41
with Mark tier like going out one night no one even knows what nothing's ever
01:05:45
come out about it um but he got stood down for a game yeah um yeah what yeah it seems like there hard and fast rules
01:05:52
now about all black expectations you guys must have got up to some hinks back in the day well yeah exactly and and
01:05:57
that's that's the the evolution of of basically technology and social media I
01:06:03
Feel Again the word lucky is going to come out but I feel very lucky to have played through the period that I did
01:06:09
because that accessibility wasn't there you know so you could go out and have a
01:06:14
couple of bears on a on a Wednesday night and nobody's taking your photograph not unless they've got one of
01:06:19
those um like a proper camera and who goes out on the booze with one of those you know exactly apart from the pap
01:06:26
like I'm going to go out for a few beds with mates I'm going to take this big
01:06:28
[ __ ] off camera with me and so it doesn't happen so like we we were able to just be a lot
01:06:36
more uh like less scrutinized you know we had freedom I'm sure we're recognized
01:06:43
in the bars and all that but no one was taking photos of it so I feel very very um very I don't know what's the word I'm
01:06:51
looking for but not not fortunate for us fortunate but for the current player I feel um I just kind of feel a little not
01:07:00
sorry for them but know what it must be like for them that they can't really uh
01:07:07
switch off from you know being in in the in under scrutiny and in the public profile um so why would you even go out
01:07:16
in public now like you know have some have some drinks back at the hotel with your team or whatever but why even go
01:07:22
out yeah why roll the dice because someone's going to spot you and and and you know like what I am saying is
01:07:29
necessarily probably a couple instances I'm talking about we we probably weren't
01:07:33
encouraged by management to be out but we were out but no one can find out yeah do you know what I mean so yeah what's
01:07:40
what's some of the stuff you yeah it's like their word against this is someone
01:07:44
yeah but this yeah very rare what um is there anything you did did back then that you'd get canceled for now if
01:07:49
you're a player um no not not not anything um bad in terms of doing anything that uh I
01:07:59
guess would harm the team yeah for sure I wasn't involved in any incidents like
01:08:04
that which was which was quite good but obviously I'd learned from um getting it
01:08:08
wrong in my youth so uh I I had actually evolved at that stage but um no it was just more you
01:08:17
know like the boy the boys are out if you're if you're what they call in the
01:08:21
dirty dirties which is when you don't get um changed uh for a game because the the the
01:08:28
substitutes do but you don't so you're kind of just on the tour anyway it was
01:08:31
kind of tradition to go out on a Friday night but trying to stay under the radar
01:08:35
of the management and not get caught coming back into the hotel which obviously tip the consci and say you
01:08:41
never saw me mate coming back but yeah I think no that that was there was nothing
01:08:47
really that bad it was just that you just didn't have to be accountable for um everywhere that you were because
01:08:54
people couldn't find you you know in terms of the them seeing you photographing you whatever and then it
01:09:01
gets put out there you know oh look at these guys are out they're not focused
01:09:05
which is not exactly the case you're actually just human you just want to relax and chill and enjoy each other's
01:09:11
company but if you ask me Evolution um I think everything's just much much more detailed now hell of a lot more
01:09:20
details uh I remember going to all black training run and I hadn't been for a
01:09:24
while um when Steve Hansen had control and I got to go for the whole day they they they allowed me in so I went into
01:09:31
the team meetings and that and I couldn't believe the amount of detail that they were going into just in their
01:09:36
pre-training pre-training meetings players standing out the imagery that they had and all that and then I went
01:09:42
along to the actual training run and they were doing this block play where they were um you know they had two
01:09:48
transition Runners out the back and someone coming on a short ball and a tip past option anyway they were they were
01:09:53
they were doing it repeatedly as a team they keep getting it wrong and there's a
01:09:57
lot of ball goes down and there's a lot of go chatting and then they go again
01:10:01
they do it again I was just watching it all unfold and then all of a sudden there was just a big blast of the
01:10:06
whistle it's like everyone stopped and these two very um golf carts come come
01:10:12
out onto the field with big TV screens on them you know and uh all of a sudden they're all huddled around this and
01:10:20
they're literally watching what had just someone had been filming their training
01:10:24
and watching them do these block plays and now they were looking at this te they're standing in their boots in the
01:10:29
middle of the field looking at this thing and I was just like oh my God you're
01:10:34
like well we sometimes you know we we we had um when we're first on a tour you
01:10:39
gone out and just had a couple of beers at night every now and then you'd be
01:10:42
hung over at training there's no way you could be hung over at training nowadays
01:10:47
like there's cameras there's cameras everywhere there's heart rate monitors
01:10:51
you know there's there's GPS's that are tracking you and if you button off they
01:10:56
know you you're not you're not can't get away with you can't get away with
01:11:00
[ __ ] so yeah I don't I don't envy that yeah cuz at the end of the day Dom
01:11:06
right it it's it's a it's an awesome game and you you got to love playing the
01:11:12
game yeah um and and I just feel that um you know sometimes that that Love of the
01:11:18
Game and that that desire just to want to go out and play isn't is been clouded
01:11:24
with information overload M you know like it's not that technical a game when
01:11:30
you're in the or black environment now like you talked before about being for
01:11:33
the training day thing are you um are you given the sort of respect and Mana that you deserve or you sort of seen as
01:11:39
a bit of a traitor no no they're very good yeah yeah no very good and uh any
01:11:44
environment that you go into now uh that they're very very much it's not respect
01:11:50
it's just they know you're part of the club and that and that I I really
01:11:54
cherish you know the fact that um it's very difficult to be in the role that
01:11:59
I'm in uh and I'm not the only one doing it because it's done across the globe
01:12:03
yeah well you imagine like you were when you were a player if you heard some commentator had said something about you
01:12:09
you would have been you would have had the Red Mist oh I did and it did happen to me um you know and there's a few of
01:12:15
them that were were not yeah exactly weren't kind but uh I I think you know ultimately
01:12:22
it's not personal I think the thing that annoyed me when I was a player was if if
01:12:29
somebody just came out and criticized me which is fine and they're a former all
01:12:33
black but that criticism wasn't then supported with um a reason why as long as as long as that was part of the
01:12:42
component I was fine yeah but when they just said no needs to be dropped um definitely uh need to play such and such
01:12:49
he's um not playing well um but if they had said you know um defensively has has
01:12:55
been a little slow and covering across and you know um delivery from line out is not quite good or half it looks just
01:13:04
a half whatever it might be as long as it's supported with valid information
01:13:09
and and and the critique is then kind of like right well these are the reasons why I am saying I think you should be
01:13:15
replaced then I can handle that and that's what I try to do like I try to now if if I am having to make those
01:13:24
comments that I I will say for example I've been talk I've been this week I've
01:13:28
been talking about this Damen McKenzie bow and Barrett uh situation and and I feel that
01:13:35
bow and Barrett as he said we're leading into the second test against Argentina
01:13:39
um after losing the first and I've said that I feel that that Scott Robertson
01:13:44
should select bow and bear out of 10 he's been World Player of the Year in that Jersey and he knows how to play
01:13:49
that position and he's a different type of player than McKenzie he's not as
01:13:53
lateral he's more direct and I think it'll help the way that we're trying to evolve our game plan and
01:14:00
will help our shape but what I have said is but that's not saying Damen McKenzie's playing poorly it's just that
01:14:08
things are just a little off a little just a little clunky at the moment so why not see whether or not we can change
01:14:16
that picture for what the opposition defense is seeing by changing the personnel and and you can bring Daman
01:14:22
McKenzie Off the Bench you know similar to what B and Barrett had done in the English series before he earned his spot
01:14:28
as a starting player at fullback so you know but but that's not of I've reinforced that with information why but
01:14:35
equally I have said but that doesn't necessarily say that Damen McKenzie is playing poorly because he's not but just
01:14:42
things are not quite right and in sync at the moment so I feel the change wouldn't be harmful to us and why not
01:14:48
find out now you know why wait you know you haven't given him a chance in the 10
01:14:53
Jersey since he came back to New Zealand put him in the 10 Jersey and see how he
01:14:57
goes and I said the same about will Jordan it's his best position en Foster persisted and played him at Wing uh
01:15:05
Scott Robertson bought him on on the wing at the weekend and I'm just like if
01:15:08
you want to change the way that we're attacking and make Argentina worried put
01:15:13
will Jordan at filbeck where he's at his most dangerous why not but why not do
01:15:19
something that they haven't seen before and that is him and a black Jersey at
01:15:23
forette because we've got this IDE that we want to play him on the wing so I've
01:15:26
been very open in that and that's not saying C ree is playing [ __ ] or Mark
01:15:30
tiia is it's just that we need to offer something different so I feel that if
01:15:35
that was done for me when I was playing then I I I would accept that because it's just somebody offering their own
01:15:41
personal opinion on what they're saying yeah [ __ ] you love talking about rugby a
01:15:46
you why why do it for a job how how are you going for doesn't mean that I know
01:15:51
what I'm talking about no no no no who does how are you going for time are you
01:15:54
right yeah yeah I'm fine man that's ex I gram Henry here a couple of weeks ago we
01:15:58
got to now twin and he looked at us watch he was like [ __ ] there's somewhere
01:16:00
I need to be okay so we wed it up gra another hinin and we yeah yeah yeah good mate good
01:16:08
um yeah [ __ ] this is a great why never coaching why you never get into coaching
01:16:12
you seem you seem very like analytical about your own game when you're playing
01:16:15
and now you're very analytical about other people's game yeah did you ever
01:16:18
look at coaching CL H manate your dog's got his tongue out he looks like he wants a sip he's thinking it's Friday
01:16:24
it's put any chance um yeah yes yes uh coaching interests me uh and and particularly when I see things um I see
01:16:35
them and I think I feel that I could improve what's happening out there and I
01:16:40
have ideas in my mind particularly around attack uh and to a degree defense um where I feel that that I could maybe
01:16:50
give ideas and uh Innovation into the game um because I've got a lot of them
01:16:55
floating around in my head just hasn't passed out that way for me um I've finished in '96 and um at that
01:17:05
stage Nicole and I were like we want to get our family back to New Zealand um so
01:17:10
that's when I retired and came back and started working for Sky simply because
01:17:14
they offered me a contract there's a contract chat again um but that that was
01:17:18
security to get back to New Zealand because otherwise all I've known has being a player so that that was kind of
01:17:25
like right well that will get us back to New Zealand get get our family back to New Zealand and now we we'll see how
01:17:31
that that that um goes for us having not been in New Zealand for six years you know you know how it went we came back
01:17:38
we arrived to Christ Church three yeah was two months later I think we arrived back in just around August Late July and
01:17:48
that first one hit in September and then the second one in February so that that
01:17:52
wasn't expected but um that was that was the ability ability for me to uh to make that transformation from
01:18:02
player into something outside of being a player and for whatever reason that's
01:18:09
what I slipped into and and and haven't had the opportunity to do um any coaching since um and whether that's
01:18:19
that period's passed me by or not I don't know like I see a lot of it now
01:18:22
and I I I see myself been able to do exactly what I told you which is go along and put the boots on and grab grab
01:18:29
the players and the key ones that I'm thinking about in terms of how I could
01:18:33
um change the shape of phase play how a couple of little um movements could completely change what the defense is
01:18:39
saying blah blah blah blah but I I wouldn't be doing that on a TV screen or a or or trying to come up with graphics
01:18:47
and arrows and all that sort of stuff um even though I do a lot of analysis for Sky I really enjoy doing that because
01:18:52
that's probably that coaching component of me yeah and brain coming out but um no it's just it's just never
01:19:00
happened and uh I do like the idea of it um but at this stage it's it's never it's never
01:19:07
come across my bow um and I've been quite happy I really enjoy working for sky like I enjoy what I do you're still
01:19:15
basically feeling like you're nearly an all black cuz you're going along calling
01:19:19
you all black test matches you got millions of people all care no responsibility exactly yeah exactly just
01:19:24
don't have to go through the the the uh the the the bumps and bruises anymore
01:19:29
but um I still feel that it gives me great amount of satisfaction and it's a
01:19:33
very cool job to have you know so I think the the coaching thing hasn't probably gone any further simply because
01:19:40
I love what I do now yeah yeah yeah [ __ ] we haven't even gone to the commentary
01:19:45
side of things yet but that's um yeah you you've done remarkably well at that
01:19:50
and you a handful of of very few people that have done both like being a successful all black and transition to a
01:19:55
media career and the the thing is I think with rugby it's um by the time you
01:19:59
make the All Blacks you've been playing rugby for 15 years 16 years whatever it
01:20:03
is um commentary you just start it's like here's a microphone here's the
01:20:08
headphones where you go mate that's exactly what it was like and it's um
01:20:12
yeah so we'll get to that soon cuz I'm I'm sure that was [ __ ] brutal yeah in
01:20:16
the first couple of Seasons but first of all um yeah you're you're in a strange
01:20:19
position whereas like you you played under five all black coaches yeah I did so msart
01:20:27
Mitchell yeah Smith Smith and Henry and Henry yeah rate them um first to wor yeah well obviously the the the fact
01:20:38
that I've already said that I was very open about the relationship that I had
01:20:42
with John Hart um he was still a very good coach and he believed in me and um like I said he pretty much had me as a
01:20:51
starting nine through that period and we had a very good side and what he what he
01:20:55
actually did do um for the all black team in the time that he had it was was fantastic you know then comparable in
01:21:03
199 um six you know going to South Africa and winning a test series here the first time in all black history was
01:21:09
something no other coach had ever done before uh that 96 97 team was amazing and then we had 98 where we lost every
01:21:16
goddamn test match U because we had the majority of those players from 96 97 retire cuz they were on their last legs
01:21:24
you know so we had a new team in '98 and as hard as we tried we just couldn't win
01:21:28
a test so that that was a real awful year for all black rugby and that again doesn't resonate with me well as you can
01:21:35
imagine given what I've I've said to you so uh and then then 99 obviously with
01:21:40
with the Fallout um for the semi-final but um so like all of them offered something different and got got
01:21:50
um I I guess rugby out of me you know and good rugby you know and and uh it's
01:21:56
really hard to sort of sort of put a finger on who who probably helped me the most but because all of them had little
01:22:01
moments where they they actually made me a better player and and I think that's
01:22:07
all that's all what that's all a coach is trying to do create an environment
01:22:10
for you to be the best player you can and I think they all achiev that there's
01:22:16
no doubt about that actually yeah there was PL unfair question say right them where's where's where's the it's a good
01:22:21
it's a valid question and and but they all got different areas where they were
01:22:25
strong on that you know probably know when when Graham Henry got me um I think that he he didn't see a great amount of
01:22:33
future in me so he's certainly not on my list of being the best that's for sure
01:22:39
uh because he he um I think he he didn't see longterm in me he saw experience and
01:22:48
what i' done for the ORS but for him I I think if he either was old enough to
01:22:55
admit it that I was a short-term option um in in his coaching time with the All Blacks uh so yeah then it just leaves
01:23:04
obviously um you know the John Mitchell's Robbie Deans um Wayne Smith um you know they all again all got a lot
01:23:12
of goodness out of me Mains selected you for the first time so supp there's a and
01:23:16
Lor was tough man but he was a tough coach but he believed in me as well yeah and what what about um John Mitchell
01:23:22
weird dude Mitch No Mitch I um he misunderstood by the public then yeah I think so yeah uh it's interesting
01:23:30
because um you know we we we had a Mitch is super competitive as well that's
01:23:36
probably the thing about him that people don't recognize he was a hell of a good
01:23:38
rugby player uh and and he he was just competitive you know but he was he was raw he was an old school coach you know
01:23:46
so he needed good he needed good um other foils around them as a coach and and I thought Robbie was a good one look
01:23:53
at the end of the day they lost one test match you know the I don't think we we
01:23:59
might have drawn one or we may have lost one other with the two year in the two years we had them but their record is
01:24:04
very good mitches and um and Robbies but obviously we had this whole thing with cly um we MIT dropped them controversial
01:24:14
most controversial thing Since U Buck shord yeah exactly so that was huge and so it didn't sit very you know didn't
01:24:21
sit very well with the country you know that Christian Ken was dropped by John Mitchell well I I heard um James
01:24:27
Marshall's wed podcast a couple of weeks ago with um Mitchell's son on there darl
01:24:32
MIT the cricketer and he said he was a massive C fan at the time and he goes I didn't speak to Dad for a couple of
01:24:39
weeks yeah I think he wasn't probably alone thinking that and some wouldn't
01:24:42
have spoken to him for for a lot longer after that but no I I I think again Mitch Mitch knew um what what made me
01:24:50
tick and and and he knew because he was old school he knew he could get that out
01:24:54
of me like we nearly had a fight at training one of the first training runs we had him and I um cuz we were playing
01:25:01
like um what do you call it like it's kind of like a transition type hybrid game of touch um and and literally Mitch
01:25:10
was he he was playing CU you know he wasn't long out of the game and he was only in his early 40s whatever he was
01:25:16
and um he was like literally every time he um take a hit up he you know someone would sort of two-handed touch him and
01:25:23
it was quite you know and he he would go like 5 met past where he got touched like taking the piss you
01:25:29
know it's like mate so um he did it and then he did it on me and I said to him mate next time I
01:25:37
said make sure you play it on the mark you know like you're getting touched way
01:25:41
back there and you're charging through like you can't do that he goes do
01:25:45
something about it to stop me I said what he said yeah do something about it to stop me I thought [ __ ] you so the
01:25:54
next time he he came up he he didn't see me coming I came from his Blind Side and
01:25:58
I just shoulder ched him my God oh my God and cuz I had again I was like I had the red Miss and then I thought to
01:26:05
myself [ __ ] I've just shoulder charged my new all black coat what am I doing
01:26:11
what am I thinking like do I actually even want to play for this team he's even going to slip he loved it mate yeah
01:26:17
he loved it you can't of picked himself up and went good good good like that and
01:26:21
then off he went I was just like well go and what are your um you what are your Recollections of the um the Wayne Smith
01:26:29
era CU I was I was thinking about I forgot all about this the other day but Wayne Smith you know the professor um
01:26:35
for what he's done on women's rugby the last few years like he's considered one
01:26:38
of the smartest rugby brains ever um so he lost lost a game lost a couple of games and then questioned whether he was
01:26:45
the right person what happened there I can't can't remember the full story he
01:26:49
just he sort of showed showed doubt which in hindsight was probably the courageous thing to do absolutely it was
01:26:55
kind of back fired yeah it's kind of a bit what I was alluding to before you
01:26:58
know like he's incredibly good thinker of the game and very Innovative not only
01:27:04
in attack and defense and you know we we used to nickname him techno actually MZ
01:27:09
and I uh you know just cuz he he loved he loved the technology and been able to bring out you know like well not cuz he
01:27:16
was dance party he was always no he wasn't not definitely not no the other nickname we had from him was Mahoney um
01:27:23
you remember police Academy oh yeah yeah the guy Mahoney with kind of curly hair
01:27:27
yeah thought he looked a little bite like him anyway nothing to do with the blue oyster in that movie um by the way
01:27:34
um yeah Police Academy referen say you're showing your age yeah you are I know [ __ ] yeah sorry about that um but
01:27:40
he he just if you the thing that the thing with Smithy is though he's just such a great mind of the game that to a
01:27:47
degree sometimes he just couldn't switch that mind off and like you knew that if
01:27:51
you bumped into him in the corridor of the hotel or the in the Foy or whatever that if he kind of had been looking at
01:27:58
something when you're in your relaxation time he would still grab you and say
01:28:01
heyy I've just been I've just seen this you know what they're doing on scrum
01:28:04
defense you know you need to think about this blah blah blah you know so he was his mind was always was always going but
01:28:11
he just he loves the game and and he he loves thinking about the game and and again how how
01:28:19
to defeat the opposition how to break them down how how to frustrate them how to then be Innovative and show them
01:28:26
something they haven't seen from us before all of that is part of his mindset you know that's his
01:28:30
creativity um but that's what he wants to do he doesn't want to have to explain
01:28:34
that to the public and to the media you know like that that to him was time consuming and I think that's just what
01:28:42
what really got to him in the finish that he couldn't stand up there and tell
01:28:46
the public exactly you know how we're going to fix this because that's beyond
01:28:50
them and the media uh he had to sit there in front of up and listen to the [ __ ] you know why did why did the
01:28:56
test match go transpire into this bad 20 minutes and why did we do this and blah
01:29:00
blah blah and he just didn't like explaining it in that way he just it just was for him it it was wasting his
01:29:07
time of what he's good at and he just said you know I just don't like doing
01:29:11
this you I don't like having to get up and explain the situation explain my selections or whatever I just want to
01:29:18
make this team a better team that's my job and and I want us to win and win everything but I don't wanted to have to
01:29:24
get up and talk about that and justify it all the time and and that that that pressure for him was making him not the
01:29:32
person that he can be and he just said you know what I I can see past that I don't want to do this and it takes balls
01:29:39
to do that you know I think so and if you look back with the you the passage of time I think he was probably quite
01:29:44
unfairly treated you know yeah he was people didn't accept that that that's
01:29:50
your they basically said that's your responsibility that's your job that's
01:29:53
why you're the coach by him showing some sort of vulnerability like that it's like no
01:29:57
he's too weak not right for the job and again this is this whole thing you know
01:30:00
you can do that as Crusaders coach because there's a few people that are absolutely live and breathe the
01:30:07
Crusaders and and they they won't accept it um and and they want you explaining
01:30:12
but the rest of the country don't give a [ __ ] you know the people in the franchise do but when you're all black
01:30:17
coachs the whole country wants to know and the whole country cares and the whole country want to hear from you
01:30:23
there's a massive difference but there's no escape from it whereas you know when
01:30:27
he's coaching the Crusaders we could just get on with it and if we dropped the game it was easy to get up and you
01:30:32
know few few of the media would care and some wouldn't and some some some would
01:30:35
take satisfaction in it CU because the Crusaders are successful but it's a different scale which is what Scott
01:30:41
Robertson's going through now you know like he is he he he's hardly lost any games of
01:30:47
rugby in his coaching career you're right what was it six six titles in a seven titles um and he was equally
01:30:54
successful with Canterbury before he got the Crusaders so he hasn't really had to
01:30:59
um fathom explaining losing very often but when he did and I remember seeing him after it was two years ago not last
01:31:09
year and he's a good M of mine and and I I said to him champ you're all right and
01:31:13
he's like nah nah not happy not happy angry but and they'd lost to the Highlanders a game they shouldn't have
01:31:18
lost um the Highlanders weren't as good a team but just had one of those days
01:31:21
out the Crusaders were slightly off it was a tight game and the Highlanders pipped them and he was super pissed off
01:31:26
and down you know about it and and angry you know like this is you know we shouldn't shouldn't be droing this game
01:31:32
and blah blah blah blah and um and that that was a rare loss for him but again he he very easily you can move on from
01:31:40
that because you're just having to deal with that with within that little sort
01:31:45
of small circle of the franchise and the players whereas last week you could see
01:31:52
the effect it had on having to explain a loss to the country and and and and and and it's
01:31:59
just different and and and it's not just a few media people from Christ Church
01:32:04
it's the entire media of of all of New Zealand with their microphones in his
01:32:09
face having to explain why the All Blacks have been defeated for the first um for the for the third time in their
01:32:17
history against Argentina and you have been the coach you know it's a completely different kid of fish and I
01:32:23
think that's what they struggled with as well yeah you are good friends um so you
01:32:27
and Razer you played together and um on your Instagram like you were in NSA for a surfing trip with him for New Years
01:32:34
few years ago what would what what would the past week have looked like do you think for the old blacks like when you
01:32:40
were in the All Blacks if you guys lost a game that you should have won you guys
01:32:43
were sort of punished the next week right you were thrashed we were yeah y y test test match training that's what it
01:32:49
was called um where the hit Shields came out and uh the blood was spilled because
01:32:55
there had been a decent um review uh and you know a lot of harsh words spoken and
01:33:01
and boom you know like into training run pissed off players players playing for their positions because you know a loss
01:33:09
always raises questions about selection and yeah it's it's always a a real bite
01:33:15
um in in the week because of having to you know front up after losing which which is rare um so there was always
01:33:24
that uh feeling um what they are going through this week I would would suggest is is pretty similar yeah I don't feel
01:33:31
that ever gets out of your system that you know all blacks don't take losing
01:33:35
well at all and particularly in their own country and uh in circumstances that are very rare in our history which this
01:33:42
is uh it has an extra Edge to it um so yeah I'd imagine intensity physicality
01:33:49
at training run and um and again some pretty pissed off players m uh and I don't think razor shies away from um
01:33:59
accountability and and also you know not not getting things right you know and he
01:34:05
he would I think fingered quite a few of uh the the individuals and some of the combinations in the team for for
01:34:13
dropping the ball and and being part of the reason why we lost it's that's his
01:34:18
that's his way that's he's got he got to be veryy tough to to to try and fight
01:34:25
your way through these situations [ __ ] [ __ ] there so much to poke around with um your playing career
01:34:33
but I we're moving on to the commentary stuff it's been an hour 35 you're on
01:34:36
track to be the longest podcast so far it's a tie with mat Watson and Dion NES
01:34:41
oh okay right well by the way Dion NES he there's parallels with you and him
01:34:46
like he said sometimes in the show even today like you know he'll get angry about things that happened back in his
01:34:51
playing day yeah right yeah no he's he's a good boy NY I know him quite well um
01:34:56
you know we we we do and did mingle quite a lot with the cricket boys uh in in our time um you know everybody kind
01:35:03
of if you like Cricket you pretty much like rugby if you like rugby you like cricket and equally both of us like golf
01:35:08
as well so in general a lot of common ground there is a lot of common ground in there and um and and those guys are
01:35:15
always really super friendly and uh you know they're always really interested in
01:35:19
what you're doing and we're interested in what they're doing so yeah I can
01:35:22
imagine that you know know that we were coming on this podcast to talk about my favorite subject which is obviously
01:35:28
myself oh so obviously need halfway how's the batteries you go on all night um all right then a couple more
01:35:40
rugby ones then you see you're in the fortunate position um you're very early
01:35:45
in your old black career like Colin Maids was still the manager yes so you know pine tree Ms I do I know pine tree
01:35:51
me one one of the one of the greatest um definitely one of the most legendary All
01:35:55
Blacks of what do you do you have much to do with them what are you yeah I did and um I think probably significantly
01:36:01
him being our all black manager at the time in 995 was really healthy for me uh I didn't drink on that tour
01:36:09
um uh just just simply because I was I was trying to kind of find again my my identity my pathway and
01:36:18
I was trying not to bloody stuff it up to be honest you know so having pin Tre there and being part of um the the
01:36:26
management group was really important I think for me because he was just this uh
01:36:33
iconic legend of of all black rugby and all of a sudden he was walking in our footsteps with us and he was part of
01:36:40
what we were doing and I it really that that really resonated with me you I was just like [ __ ] it's pine tree how cool
01:36:48
you please talk to me um so it was really good but the the best thing for me was him giving me giving me my first
01:36:56
all black Jersey cuz I got named again out of nowhere for my first test we'd
01:37:00
lost the first one in Mar uh quite comprehensively and we we we hadn't played well and he gave the
01:37:08
team a real dressing down on on the um the Monday before our training run and that was a test match Monday I can tell
01:37:14
you that much uh and he he didn't hold back um he he hit individuals he hit the
01:37:20
team so you weren't in the firing line cuzz you hadn't done yeah yeah I wasn't
01:37:24
in the test team or in the in the reserves I was just been in the midweek team [ __ ] what does a Colin Maids
01:37:28
dressing down look like it looks uh it's it's not shouting it's it's a a sternness with a
01:37:37
frown um and not a whole lot of words but the words that are coming out of his mouth all have meaning so he's not
01:37:44
wasting them yeah um but but quite brutally honest and uh no one escaped it even Lori got it and when he when he
01:37:53
when he gave Lori um a go for as well I was like holy [ __ ] only pin Tre could do
01:37:58
that uh so yeah he it was it was like it's very real to be fair um and and then yeah I got named to play and like I
01:38:08
was like oh my God you know sheez it was Lor's last test match as all black coach
01:38:13
we lost in Mar here they pluck me out of nowhere to start this test match but the
01:38:18
big like I said the reassuring um element of having pine tree around he knew what he was doing you know like
01:38:28
it really isn't an all black manager place to speak about performance all black manager is there as a manager you
01:38:35
know organizing the bus making sure that the you know the catering's done and
01:38:40
everybody gets to places on time they don't address ever the the performance
01:38:45
of the team but he could so and he did and um that that that for me I think really ground ground the platform for
01:38:56
the week of there was going to be a massive um response after what he said and and there was um but him him handing
01:39:06
me my first all black Jersey is something that I'll never forget you know and and he he he what he said to me
01:39:12
was was so what the old black Jersey is about you know and to be presented the Jersey by him I couldn't have asked for
01:39:22
it to be any more of an occasion than than that one that unfolded in front of my very eyes you know for for him to be
01:39:29
standing there and he is a big man with his massive big hands and his big frown and his big
01:39:36
eyebrows like like a brain he doesn't waste his words and he and he called me
01:39:41
boy and he said boy I'll give you this all black Jersey today um he said you
01:39:46
might only wear it today uh you might wear it for many more test matches but it's not yours
01:39:53
it's just yours to wear today and maybe in the future and you are simply a caretaker of this jersey and my
01:40:00
challenge to you is when you give it back you give it back in the same place that I'm giving you today or a better
01:40:06
place and if you've done your job if you've done if you do that you've done
01:40:10
your job that's all he said to me you know that that that was basically my responsibility put it on it's not mine
01:40:17
like there's great All Blacks that have worn that Jersey before me I straight
01:40:22
away thought of s going um when when he said that you know I thought to myself said go said going is
01:40:28
worn this jersey and and and that's weird isn't it that I didn't think gr
01:40:32
bash who had woron it just before me um or David Kirk who had won the World Cup in it first person that's um went into
01:40:39
my mind with Sid going I thought this is the same Jersey that super Sid going were how did you even know who he was my
01:40:46
dad got named after him when he was playing rugby yeah so they they used to call my dad Sydney as a as and Sydney
01:40:53
going um he played halfback as well um my dad probably would have been very close to being a you know he was
01:41:02
certainly a South and rugby player but he could have gone a lot further um but but I came along so um he stopped
01:41:10
playing rugby but uh but they but he played a very similar way to sidg uh and then obviously uh you know Sid going you
01:41:19
see the imagery of the type of player he was I kind of I kind of didn't I didn't
01:41:25
mold myself on playing like him but I I did I was a similar style of player to him so yeah uh for for that to be my all
01:41:34
black presentation for my first all black Jersey um I was yeah very very proud that it was Colin Ms the great
01:41:41
Colin Mees that gave it to me and his messaging was so um sincere you know like he was right it was just mine to
01:41:50
wear um and If today was going to be that only day you know and you give it on to someone else you give it on in in
01:41:58
a better or same place and and you know obviously we won that test match comfortably so if that was my one all
01:42:05
black day uh performance and that's all I did in the Jersey Then I then I'd
01:42:09
completed the task that he had set me but then you get the thirst of wanting more once you run out there and being a
01:42:15
part of it but um I think my winning percentage of my 81 tests is it's either
01:42:21
83 or 85% um so uh over over 10 years so not not bad it's good yeah same as Graham Henry
01:42:29
as coach oh there you go 85% over 103 T yeah so I'm thinking okay I think uh I
01:42:35
gave it back in a in a better place done the Jersey proud [ __ ] that's cool what
01:42:40
did you um swap many what have you done with your jerseys you you you you kept all of them did you swap some you got
01:42:45
them all SW yeah I did swap um I heard I heard Richie mcco is a real tight ass with swapping swapping Jersey yeah I've
01:42:51
heard that as well played how many years do the All Blacks I played two years or
01:42:56
three years with Rich As in all black uh and yeah I didn't see him swapping jerseys very often I it only swapped if
01:43:03
he thought the opponent had um deserved the right I don't know I don't want to talk
01:43:08
at a term about the uh the great Richie MC but de did you what what are they cataloged at home have you got them
01:43:15
hanging up yes I I kept the significant ones you know like um obviously test debut 50th test you know 96 the
01:43:22
uncomparable one ones um British Lions you know all all of those ones that even the World Cup ones you know like all all
01:43:30
of the ones like in 2003 you know that was after 99 losing another semi-final was massively disappointing for me um
01:43:40
but I had I had attitude that year like I was wanting to not have what happened to me in '99 being dropped in the
01:43:48
semi-final you know um and I wanted it to be a successful campaign I was driven I was um I think skin folds were
01:43:56
something like 7% like I was fit I'd never been in better shape um and I had
01:44:02
a really people won't remember this because all they remember is what happened which is us getting beaten by
01:44:06
Australia and knocked out of the tournament but I actually got named in the tournament team as the as as as the
01:44:12
best halfback in in the 2003 Rugby World Cup so um you know I was really proud of
01:44:18
what I achieved in that in that um in that tournament and you know even though it's final loss I still keep that Jersey
01:44:24
cuz I remember what I did in it that year even though it's got a little Tang
01:44:28
of disappointment about it but yeah no I've got all the significant ones and
01:44:32
I've got you know I've got George gan's jerseys I've I've got um Rob H's Jersey
01:44:37
I've got us FAS his jersey which um which means a lot to me you know to have
01:44:44
have his jersey after what he went through with mod nuran and um you know George dran and I went out to South
01:44:49
Africa when y asked us to go over um and he was wheelchair bound at that stage and actually he couldn't speak he
01:44:58
was uh using a voice activation thing um and to see the great the great yand vasin humbled by um that disease but the
01:45:09
way that he approached it was incredible but for the three of us nines to get together you know um and and
01:45:15
share uh a bit of time together um was was amazing I'll never never forget that
01:45:21
and uh you know like again um just a sad sad sad story in in rugby that he's not
01:45:28
with us anymore but you know the games and the challenges I had against him uh you know so yeah I've got quite a few of
01:45:35
them I'm probably yeah gave away and swapped a lot of my jerseys uh with with
01:45:41
my opposition because that's what the game's about you know I don't want to
01:45:44
have 81 all black jerseys yeah what for yeah exactly what are we going to do with them so make one big one I don't
01:45:51
know you're super quill or something yeah um you can see this from your Instagram like it seems like you have
01:45:58
quite a good relationship with a lot of the a lot of your um contemporaries you know you catch up at different like H
01:46:03
activations or assah events or whatever it happens to be but is is there anyone that you're um I mean Time Heals most
01:46:10
wounds but is there anyone that you're like just indifferent to now like you're
01:46:14
like nah I would if I saw you in the same function I wouldn't even cross the
01:46:17
room to speak to you yeah that's a good question I've never really been asked
01:46:20
that um to be to be honest like I I had had some ding-dongs with quite a few players that I never thought that I'd
01:46:26
spend any time with you know Lawrence delelio Springs to mine and Martin Johnson um English guys yeah yeah funny
01:46:33
enough but um and Justin Harrison uh him and I had a real set to uh but all of those George Smith does everyone know
01:46:43
the George Smith story oh he hurt your ribs yeah when was that was one of the world 2003 right yeah yeah he he he um
01:46:52
late tackled me and cracked one of my ribs which took me out of the game I couldn't come back on after half time uh
01:46:59
and man I had a grudge against him [ __ ] honestly because it was late you know yeah so he I got taken out of the Rugby
01:47:06
World Cup with a cracked rib he got penalized that was all that happened to him and I was just like this is not fair
01:47:13
you know he's literally hit me late when my um my arm was up I've been exposed
01:47:17
and he's cracked one of my ribs and now my tournament is over and he just gets
01:47:23
penal a penalty against him God I was filthy about it like it took me a long time to get over there and then all of a
01:47:29
sudden we're in Hong Kong and we're in the same team over the and uh and he said and he first
01:47:37
thing he said to me is come up and he goes Mar have you got over that tackle yet I was
01:47:41
like I said mate if I'm perfectly honest no he goes oh yes it was a little late
01:47:48
wasn't I was like yeah but he goes oh well anyway we're going to have a good
01:47:51
week AR me I was like yeah and then you know it just clears the air it does and and it's been the same with like I
01:47:56
played with Florence delelio and Martin Johnson and and barbarians or and World 15 games and all that and just real all
01:48:04
rugby players are the same they they deep down what you see on the field is not necessarily what you'd see off the
01:48:10
field you know they they they all have a competitiveness or a manner about them on the field but off the field we're all
01:48:17
very similar and uh it's just about working that out and and making the effort you know once you do that no I
01:48:24
can't say there's anybody like obviously everyone knows about Byron and byon ker
01:48:30
and I's rival rivalry that we had um and oh yeah so you were the you you were the
01:48:37
you were the guy and he was like the guy behind the guy he was the guy telling me
01:48:41
regular and telling the media that he's going to get my jersey so that that wasn't something that um basically said
01:48:49
to me you and my teammate I'm happy to to teach you and to for us to work together because you're openly saying
01:48:58
you want my jersey I feel like that was the environment at the time right kind of I get it it was less supportive and
01:49:03
inessive than what it is yeah of course he wanted it but did you guys hate each other at the time yeah sh yeah yeah oh
01:49:09
yeah and when we played each other but but I so he was chiefs no Highlanders he was Chiefs and Highlanders yeah and you
01:49:16
were yeah okay yeah uh and there's one s I'll tell you this one thing and I I'll
01:49:21
admit this now so you're the first to ever get this on on um on the record uh
01:49:27
there was a game um and I remember Steve Walsh was the referee Highlanders game down at um
01:49:34
carrisbrook and he was being niggly annoying um andan he was playing quite well at the time as well but uh it was a
01:49:39
real ding-dong Crusaders Highlanders and uh there was an instance where he ended
01:49:44
up on the ground and uh I I was I was still on my feet and he'd gone to the ground and someone had flung him into
01:49:49
the ground and I was kind of standing in the standing in the vicinity and I could
01:49:53
see the an opportunity to present itself and I just didn't even think twice about it so he was if you can
01:50:00
imagine he was on the ground and his um his hand was like that on the ground and
01:50:04
I just I made it cuz you can see the video footage of it cuz it went to the judicial but I made it look like I
01:50:10
didn't intend to do it but 100% am admitting now after three hkin um that I went you know what I can't
01:50:19
pass this up so I just kind of pivoted around and when I stepped I stepped like that on the front of my toes but then I
01:50:26
went Bo like that with the back of my heel and I got the perfect spot which is in the webbing
01:50:32
o oh my God and it just split split his webbing right through there between the the thumb and the finger and obviously
01:50:41
carried on like a por Chop on the ground and I just pretended that I'd you know
01:50:46
clumsily like stepped on him but I 100% did that with intent and and yeah it ended up at the J judicial because he
01:50:55
accused me of standing on his hand blah blah blah and I was like what no it did not that was an accident
01:51:01
but there you go adiss of guilt so yeah we we didn't when you see if you see us
01:51:07
interact um when he came on um substituting me uh which he did for 90% of his of his time um we weren still
01:51:17
getting into cheap shots yeah we weren't doing the big hug yeah yeah and then hey
01:51:22
mate you know if we actually touched hands that was a miracle um but then I saw him so this is going back to what
01:51:29
you asking me before and I hadn't seen him for quite a while and he'd come back
01:51:32
from France and he was with his daughter in Wellington after test match down there and um fair play he came up to me
01:51:39
and uh I said hey mate how's it going oh you back blah BL blah and he's like yeah
01:51:42
good and we we we chatted and then I grabbed beer and we had a couple beers and so yeah it's it's funny isn't it
01:51:49
like oh the just part of it's the aging process say you realize you think what
01:51:54
is it all about it doesn't fcking matter yeah exactly did you say has your hand hopefully he's not the most popular
01:52:02
podcast in New Zealand he's probably going to hear that so um unfortunately that was uh that was something that I've
01:52:08
now admitted that he probably will hear about yeah well he's um I mean he's he's
01:52:12
had he's got his own [ __ ] going on it seems like he's dealing with some um
01:52:15
demons at the moment he is yeah yeah um all right let's [ __ ] mate the rugby
01:52:20
Yarns are great hey by the way um um you're on another podcast now called The
01:52:24
Good The Bad and The rugby with um my mate Andy row and Jeremy Paul yeah yeah it's a great podcast by the way yarn's
01:52:31
like this every single week yeah it is yeah no it's really it's really good I I
01:52:35
actually it's a spin-off of the good the bad the rugby the UK and I went on their
01:52:39
show a couple of times I really enjoyed it orbe it couple of times theyve ambushed me because um I've gone on and
01:52:46
in France last year had I'd had a night out and I kind of turned up a little bit
01:52:51
Dusty and we're on this Rooftop in France and uh it's like Mar can you come
01:52:57
go the bed yeah yeah you come all so anyway and um I go on and tins is like well mate fan your beer I was like M
01:53:04
it's 10:30 and he's like yeah you look a little Dusty though so obviously uh two
01:53:10
two bears later two points later I'm kind of like yeah spinning off in all directions but no you say you say by the
01:53:18
way I'll just pause you there you say tins this this is Mike Tindle M tnd who's the husband of um Zara Phillips
01:53:24
yeah one of the The Queen's granddaughter yes yeah yeah yeah no um he's a great man T mark Tindle and and
01:53:31
Zara equally she's she's incredible she loves a rugby and obviously been very
01:53:35
successful equestrian that but you you you kind of see the Royals don't you um
01:53:40
from the exterior and you see them operating and then I see tins and Zara at the um at the royal wedding or
01:53:49
whatever the Queen's funeral and all that and it's very you know you know
01:53:52
what it's it's all about proper proper and everything else and then literally
01:53:57
you can be in a bar with them in France or in Japan or wherever it might be or in England um we even I know tins that
01:54:06
well even they hire a place out in Wan and go for a few beers with them in their place in Monica and they they're
01:54:12
just normal Zara is like she's so normal she's just like a she's like a Blok um
01:54:19
girl you know she'll be and whatever if there's a drinking game going you know um she she's just real
01:54:26
great company they both are so yeah very easy to go on the show with them but um
01:54:32
it's nice for us to have an opportunity to do a spin-off um of what they are
01:54:35
doing and like you say it's just rugby Yarns previewing reviewing the game getting guests on and just just
01:54:42
having a general CH chat so yeah good to bad the rugby Australia New Zealand version and um I'm actually really
01:54:47
enjoying it Tom to be honest you're doing a great job so um your my M Andy he's like the Guru of podcast well no
01:54:54
he's well that's what he calls himself he does call himself that um but I was
01:54:57
down catching up with him last week and uh there was like a barage of voice notes you're a voice memo guy yeah like
01:55:04
three minute long voice memos and um I I was impressed and he's suitably impressed with um like the work and the
01:55:10
dedication that you're putting putting into it and it um made me realize just
01:55:14
why your broadcasting career has been successful cuz the same sort of I don't
01:55:19
know if intelligence is the word but the same sort of eff or intelligence you put
01:55:23
towards your rugby career you've done this to this new thing and it seems like
01:55:26
whatever you do this is just the effort you put into it yeah I do yeah I quite a
01:55:30
I'm a bit of a perfectionist um often when I get asked to go do speaking engagements and I just I you know I do
01:55:39
them regularly you the corporate ones and and um you're asked to do whatever style
01:55:45
so you can either do a story which is just Yarns and a bit of a funny antidotes whatever it might be or
01:55:51
motivational uh and if I'm talking motivational and I and I often get asked about this you
01:55:58
know um about the alls I feel they say what what makes what what made and does make the All
01:56:06
Blacks so good and and I said that um it's because as all blacks you're never
01:56:12
you're never ever satisfied you're actually seeking the perfect game like I
01:56:18
reckon there's been probably three or four four games that I can remember where we were in
01:56:25
that 90% you know the one you remember the One at Wellington the last one of the last ones at Athletic Park against
01:56:31
Australia and it was a miserable old day in the mud um crap and [ __ ] and um you
01:56:37
know we just hardly put a foot wrong that day I think we beat them by 46 to something or rather six and that's when
01:56:43
Australia was good yeah they were yeah we just demolished them and there wasn't
01:56:47
much that went wrong in that game in difficult conditions and some others that you know that data there but I
01:56:54
think you'll never get you'll never get Perfection there'll always be something
01:56:58
there'll always be even if you got to 99 there'll be that 1% that'll just
01:57:02
wouldn't have been quite right and I think that's kind of what I'm like with
01:57:07
my approach to when I take on projects or take on anything in life like I'm trying to trying to do it as perfect as
01:57:15
I can and and deliver that perfect performance or product or whatever it might be um and I want everything to
01:57:23
be uh enjoyable for people you know it's kind of part of my my motivation because
01:57:29
it's good to to have that lack of complacency cuz complacency is a killer man yeah it's a it's a good it's a good
01:57:37
way to be I suppose it's like having a growth mindset like you want to keep looking forward rather than like
01:57:41
dwelling on the past but also an exhausting way to live your life oh it is it is it's never easy no it's not no
01:57:47
but I think it's good because you it's all performance isn't it you just want
01:57:50
to keep like you you see to me like you've been doing this for how many years now oh the podcast like 2 and a
01:57:55
half years yeah and you said the I said to you m it's going really well really
01:57:59
successful you know you must be really happy happy and you said yeah it kind of started off you know a little slow or
01:58:05
whatever but then once I sort of got my groove and now you're sort of right at
01:58:08
the top you know but so you're obviously without knowing it you're doing the same
01:58:12
thing yeah I guess so yeah because you probably would have listened to the first View and gone yeah okay yeah not
01:58:17
bad but um and then you and then you then you kind of know the level that that you sit at and you don't want to
01:58:23
drop that performance level yeah oh you want every every podcast to be the best one you've ever done exactly yeah yeah
01:58:30
sh um we'll get into the commentary stuff should we have a quick Priss break
01:58:33
do you need a so one of break this seal so one of my strengths yeah so uh is uh so all blacks
01:58:42
here um we still do and did have not as frequently now I believe with this current player is have you have court
01:58:48
sessions and if people have heard about the myth of Court sessions they are very
01:58:52
real you know like it's one opportunity where the team you do the game you're in
01:58:56
the changing room have a bit with the opposition maybe go to an after matx function whatever you get back to the
01:59:00
hotel right everybody be down in the team room in 20 minutes you know so everybody goes up puts their bags away
01:59:06
comes down and you get in a big circle in a in a big room box of beers and you just have time together you know and you
01:59:14
drink beers and you tell some Yarns and someone's had done something pretty crappy during the week or whatever and
01:59:20
it's just a real opportunity for for you to as a team just to debrief but equally
01:59:25
just to have have that space together without anybody else involved and have a laugh and have a good time at the
01:59:32
expense of each other as well um but the one thing is being able to have a good bladder because you're only allowed to
01:59:39
go for a piss when the the judges allow you to go right so I was a judge so I haven't allowed you to go yet hang on
01:59:48
hang on no no no I'm joking but um once you break the seal it's a but so that
01:59:52
and that yeah that's so what I yeah what I um was able to learn very quickly is
01:59:58
is make sure that you um don't have to get be put in that situation where you
02:00:04
cannot um control the ability to go to the toilet and all of a sudden you're
02:00:08
going without being given permission because if you do that when you come back you're most likely facing something
02:00:14
like a a full Pint to skull or something like that of punishment so consequen don't worry you can go to the toilet I
02:00:20
won't punish you for uh for your indiscretion of going early thank you this is so much fun by the way
02:00:26
I um had Paul Henry around here about a month ago we had some wine Eric Murray one of the early podcasts he tuned up
02:00:32
with the six-pack nice um but you and me I reckon we're going to polish off this
02:00:35
St tonight be right back yeah cool right all right so the commentary stuff um so
02:00:42
you have this um illustrious all black career where sometimes you get slated by the media but you know you're there for
02:00:48
81 test so you've done a [ __ ] good job then suddenly um you thrown this media career I suppose because of your
02:00:55
like rugby knowledge and what you've done with the old black Jersey but you don't know [ __ ] all about media like you
02:01:00
know a lot about rugby um so how was that that how did that criticism care um compare to like the criticism of being
02:01:09
you know like an all black on the on a losing side um I think probably the good thing for me this is good and bad the
02:01:17
good thing for me was um I started to do some TV work when I was playing overseas so because Super Rugby is being
02:01:25
shown over there they kind of like to get players that have played Super Rugby on their panels so I started do some
02:01:32
panel work coming in 8:00 in the morning in London the gamees being showed and did that I I didn't really do any
02:01:39
commentary so what sky had seen had obviously been seeing me on TV in panels the majority of the TV work that I was
02:01:47
doing um so I think that's kind of where they were gravitating with me but equally they probably had heard me do a
02:01:54
couple commentaries so that's fine so I arrived back in New Zealand and um yeah
02:02:00
that they have got me sort of set more um on the commentary side of it uh because they they obviously needed
02:02:07
somebody to fill that space so I start I do start doing that but the thing with my commentary is what I did get to
02:02:16
experience by living in the UK and seeing the All Blacks and New Zealand from a far and a different
02:02:24
perspective is I saw what the rest of the world sees because we can be very insul about AR and all of a sudden I
02:02:33
saw uh Richie mcco over over the ball jackling the ball clearly off his feet and it's a penalty all day long and our
02:02:44
commentators just pretending that they've never seen it and it's never happened um you know and no one seen it
02:02:52
it's like he he if he does anything wrong it doesn't exist if any you know
02:02:57
the there's a forward pass and it's like that's a for pass and we we we won't we
02:03:03
won't obviously be able to um have the the courage to to be I guess critical
02:03:09
because we feel there'll be Fallout um so yet I've got the whole Pub or the
02:03:14
whole room or whatever of English Welsh French whatever it might be I played in all those countries going it's a knock
02:03:21
on I've just knocked the ball on um and and so I got to kind of understand that
02:03:27
you've actually just got to um say what everyone's seeing and not pretend that
02:03:33
something didn't happen and then that was my mindset when I came back to New
02:03:37
Zealand that I I would be super objective I would call it as I see it but equally as what was unfolding in
02:03:44
front of me and and the All Blacks can be human you can actually criticize them because they actually have had a [ __ ]
02:03:51
kick exit it's like that's just not good enough you know but a lot of people
02:03:57
don't like that because they feel that you you're all black bashing it's not
02:04:01
that it's it's like I want the All Blacks to win every test match I want
02:04:05
the Crusaders to win every game I want newal and rugby to be the best rugby in the world but when you're doing
02:04:12
television there is so much more going on than just what's happening in New Zealand and I feel that you can't you
02:04:19
can't deceive people by trying to pretend that something that's um happening in front of them is actually
02:04:24
not happening it's impossible to do that yeah so I so that's the way I like to
02:04:29
approach it I also like to try and educate if I can and I know that I get lot lots of comments of people going you
02:04:35
know that's just the basics of the game why are you talking just shut up and
02:04:40
stop talking but I do know that there is some people tuning in for the first time
02:04:44
or whatever who don't understand so you are actually trying to help them and and
02:04:49
and help them learn and learn about the game but yet the the store that turns in for
02:04:55
every Super game and every all black test match it just goes I already know that so there's kind of a you're never
02:05:01
going to a win situation yeah did you get like guidance from anyone or sort of coaching or critiquing no got thrown
02:05:07
straight into it pretty much like you said there's the microphone this is when
02:05:11
you're live on a this is how you talk down to the people downstairs in the truck if you want to um ask something or
02:05:17
whatever um and always treat your mic as life cuz what what you were saying makes
02:05:22
perfect sense like we've just had the Olympics on TV and it's like if I'm
02:05:25
watching synchronized springboard diving I don't know anything that's going on so
02:05:29
I want it dumbed down to me to the lowest absolutely lowest level possible and I'm the same with rugby as well to a
02:05:35
degree like I don't know what's [ __ ] going on yeah yeah and I think what
02:05:38
we're trying to do is trying I'm just trying to have balance um but yeah you you never like a
02:05:46
player all I've done is just know that I'm not going to always be everyone's
02:05:51
favorite but the criticism the criticism early on like did it stink like there was a Facebook group you remember when
02:05:57
Facebook groups were Facebook grp there's one get Jus martial of skysport commentary um I mean it's only 7.7 th000
02:06:04
followers so it's not massive but still yeah that's it's enough of people um you
02:06:12
know feeling that they actually want to go a step further than just offering criticism to starting a Facebook page
02:06:18
but no I I I don't feel that that that that's um sort of noise I don't listen
02:06:24
to and there's no point in doing that to yourself you know like that's that's not
02:06:28
going to it's not going to help you and and and it's not going to change me
02:06:33
where does that strength of character come from to ignore that noise same as when I was a player mhm like I would
02:06:38
literally go into a supermarket uh you know or because it doesn't always have to be a pub and
02:06:46
someone could stand right in front of me and tell me that they didn't feel that I
02:06:49
was right for the job and I shouldn't starting for the All Blacks or the Crusaders or whatever it might be and
02:06:55
and I just say look you know I just need to let you know and it's like well thanks very much for that you go have a
02:07:00
good rest of your day you know that that's just that comes that comes with the job and um it shouldn't though it it
02:07:07
shouldn't but I guess they're if they're saying it on their couch they when they
02:07:11
see you they feel that they should be able to say it to your face um you don't
02:07:15
necessarily um have to deal with that during your normal everyday just trying to get away from the game but you can't
02:07:23
ever do that when you're at all black and the profile that all blacks have so
02:07:27
I think all of that noise that um does surround those situations including what you said about cometry it doesn't um
02:07:37
waste it does it doesn't consume my energy in time I don't all I try to do
02:07:42
is exactly what I try to do as a rugby player I go out and deliver a really good um seeking Perfection performance
02:07:50
in cometry or on the panel or whatever I'm doing and and hope that um you know
02:07:55
I'm calling the game for the excitement level that it's at or um what's going
02:08:00
wrong with it or whatever it might be and and and people regardless of that type of performance some of them you'll
02:08:06
never sway they just don't like you and I think that's life like say for example
02:08:11
if I said to you okay we've got we've got a um we've got a final of uh the
02:08:18
Grand Slam Tennis coming up we've got federo versus Nadal know you'll like one or the other for
02:08:25
whatever reason you know out of Interest Who is it is it on clay or grass it's it's on uh it's on yeah
02:08:34
actually it doesn't [ __ ] matter nadell have you seen this biceps yeah yeah true he's so handsome yeah yeah but
02:08:41
but people will people will have their favorites regardless it's just it's just
02:08:46
natural human nature human nature and and you you never you could deliver the performance of your life but that person
02:08:53
you'll never convince that you're the right person for them for them you know
02:08:59
yeah how um yeah I I used to work in music don't worry the dog's just trying to dig a
02:09:04
hole on the sofa he never gets it um no he weren't I worked in a music radio
02:09:09
station for years and we had like a a sports station in the building and I I saw some like your many like exports
02:09:15
people come through and um like names that spring to mine Monty beam Jeff Wilson your old mate and um Jenny moffen
02:09:22
and one thing they they all sort of had I noticed is this um like Drive uh for like self- betterment self-improvement
02:09:29
and just to like accelerate the process and learn the media game as quickly as possible um I feel like it was probably
02:09:35
the same for you like did you you just sort of soaked everything up and yeah I think so I I think probably I'm a little
02:09:42
bit more of a um a feel person though like like I I just if I enjoy what I'm
02:09:49
doing then I want to improve and that'll just come naturally I probably I'm not a
02:09:55
researcher you know I won't go look at other commentators or panelists and try
02:10:00
to maybe replicate them or try to take away certain elements of what they're
02:10:06
doing and and add it to my repertoire um equally like I'm you I don't like
02:10:13
rehearsals but we do we have to do them with TV but you rehearse a game yeah well um you know you do you have to
02:10:21
rehearse the opening right rehearse you know the the you know the the sequence of the ha how everyone's timing goes so
02:10:28
that you're not talking over each other and then you kind of rehearse your way
02:10:32
through what we're going to put together in a pre and a postgame show and all
02:10:36
that sort of thing so that you know it's all fluid when when the time comes but I
02:10:41
don't like rehearsals because I don't like premeditating myself I would rather
02:10:47
when the we're say we're commenting on some sort of footage or the present to
02:10:51
ask me a question that what comes out of my mouth is exactly what I'm thinking
02:10:55
not what I've thought about an hour and a half ago in rehearsal and so I don't
02:10:59
tend to really offer much comment when it comes to rehearsal and it might look like I'm not interested but what I'm
02:11:05
going to do is not over think and and try and um come up with an answer uh given that the question could
02:11:14
change and the and the context of the question could change as well CU then you set yourself up to look a bit stupid
02:11:18
so I I'm more of a field person that no I I probably I would say I'm not that
02:11:24
methodical that I'm more spontaneous um and and I think that's what the game is
02:11:30
like if you tried to prepare yourself for what's going to unfold in 80 minutes
02:11:35
then you're setting yourself up for disaster because anything can happen like no one expected Argentina to win
02:11:41
last weekend but it happened yeah but it didn't change the way that I saw the
02:11:45
game and commented on the game like you just called it for what it was you know and and I think that that's kind of key
02:11:51
that you're kind of living the Moment Like The Spectator is at the ground or
02:11:55
the person that's sitting on the couch at home is like what they're thinking
02:11:59
like is is the now rather than than rehearsed and it it feels I mean you've been doing it such a long time now like
02:12:05
your commentary career has been longer than your all black career now right not quite but not quite it's yeah I've been
02:12:12
with Sky for 13 years now yeah I actually had longevity with I was 17 years as a pro right so um I did pretty
02:12:19
well to hang in there for that long 36 me when I was 3 when 35 36 like the trainers were looking at me
02:12:28
and they were going well we're wasting [ __ ] time here putting him in the gym
02:12:31
so I ended up playing bedminton while the other guys are lifting these mess of weights and all that there's a
02:12:38
little bed courtt and I funny enough I played with Glen Jackson cuz we're at
02:12:41
Saron and him and I go play bedminton cuz like mate I've been in the gym for
02:12:45
15 years before that there was no um gains that I was going to get and to be fair you start to Creek and hurt a
02:12:54
little bit and your bones are a bit so going in there and trying to bench press 140 kgs and you're not going to get any
02:13:01
um massive increase from where you've been so was actually quite clever you know it's like well let's just keep
02:13:06
their mind fresh uh so yeah so well when I was watching the bedington at the Olympics I was actually you
02:13:12
know I know all about this game um what about um some of the some of the things you've said did you or did you tradem
02:13:19
mark like bumper bu and yes boy and me my yes I did yeah I um I only trademarked them because not
02:13:27
because of commentary or anything worrying about anybody else using them um I was going through a stage where I
02:13:33
thought I'd quite like to do some some uh make a beer and a few beers and that
02:13:39
maybe that that um using those types of phrases power phrases might might be part of the brand work so I just did
02:13:47
that for that very reason it wasn't for anything else to do with media or tele
02:13:51
or or any other part of life so yeah um yeah well bom is not a word for a start off yeah so are these just things you
02:13:59
were they premeditated or things you just just came out of my mouth I used when I was watching Club rugby back in
02:14:05
matara back in the day um you know I was playing as a kid and then watching the main game of the senior team playing and
02:14:12
um there whole group of us kids used to sit in the Hedge and watch it uh when someone got smashed we used to go oh
02:14:17
boom far like that but it's not actually it's not a it's not in the dictionary um
02:14:22
so it just came out of my mouth when I was commentating you know and um yeah it kind of
02:14:29
sounds I don't know I think it kind of sounds what's like impactful doesn't it
02:14:33
it's like a you know rather than pow do you know what I mean cuz pal sound sounds a bit weird to me what about Mi
02:14:41
oh my that's a that was a balls up no no it was M it was a balls up so basically what happened was and and this
02:14:51
this is like people thinking oh you know you've you've done this thing but so
02:14:56
there was an awesome um period of play and I remember it was at eeden Park and I I went to say because I I didn't know
02:15:04
can you say oh my God like you know because you know there's certain things that can get criticism for words or
02:15:13
whatever that you use and I don't know if if I was going to upset you know or
02:15:17
Blasphemous or whatever you know so I went to say oh my God but then I my mind went don't say that word because I don't
02:15:26
know if it's correct or not or if people can say that even though we say it in
02:15:29
everyday life is it allowed to kind of you know I don't know what I was thinking but so I went oh me oh my I've
02:15:37
enjoyed that but it was It was supposed to come out but my but my brain brain went don't
02:15:45
say God yeah and so I went my Mo wow I've enjoyed that you know oh so did you only say it once I only said it
02:15:54
once oh yeah so many I put said on Instagram you're coming so many people s to ask him I thought it was like a a
02:15:59
catchphrase that you say often I've said it a couple of times um since but that's
02:16:05
been very rare but that was just as a a kind of when something really spectacular I've kind of said Oh Me Oh
02:16:12
My I've enjoyed that and then there's kind of the yes boy part of it but yeah
02:16:16
no that was VE very much a a kind of jumbled word explosion of crap to be honest and yes boy I understand like I
02:16:27
can see if you're playing golf with mates and they have a good t- shot you'll say yes boy I understand that um
02:16:32
oh what at the um Rugby World Cup last year when it was this was quite highly publicized you weren't selected what
02:16:38
yeah did that did that [ __ ] you off did it sting oh it will always sting because
02:16:43
people having listened to this podcast um will kind of hear the competitive nature of me and and the and the
02:16:50
perfectionist and and obviously the ultimate in rugby is to go to a Rugby World Cup uh and and
02:16:55
Sky actually hadn't had the rights to a Rugby World Cup um since 2015 so you know last year in France was
02:17:04
the first time that we we'd got those rights back um so to to not be chosen to
02:17:09
go was yeah it's stun you know I I wanted to go and I I felt that you know the the is always um magic moments and
02:17:19
huge opportunities in the game and this is one of them a Rugby World Cup um but that that just didn't eventuate and and
02:17:26
Sky Had A team that they wanted to send so uh yeah look I was definitely disappointed about it um but you know
02:17:33
still still contracted so it it wasn't the end of the world it was just um a
02:17:39
bit of a blow not to be able to go because you know you want want to be part of the biggest thing in the game
02:17:45
yeah do do do you get told why like if you're an all black and you miss out on
02:17:47
selection you'd like to think the coach would say this is what you need to work
02:17:50
on is it the same thing with commentary um yeah pretty much yeah y obviously when you're sending a broadcast team
02:17:56
you've got to think about the entirety and and we had eight weeks I think it
02:18:01
was over there as as as sky as a broadcaster to produce content and it's not just about what we're doing on game
02:18:09
day you know we got to send back all various um pieces for shows you know Crowd Goes Wild um
02:18:18
social media pieces the breakdown show was being hosted by over there so just in the blend and the mix of it what sky
02:18:25
wanted to send was the team that they sent and and they said you know it's it's hard on you because you're not
02:18:31
doing anything wrong but this is the the the team and the dynamic that we want to
02:18:35
send because that way we can cover all of those aspects of our broadcast which is just not one thing so yeah that that
02:18:43
was basically what was said and and um you know it's like anything it's like a
02:18:47
coach coming to you and saying you know you're not part of team this weekend or
02:18:51
you're going to be on the reserves you just go okay well um I need to be told
02:18:57
Now by you why and how can I get better and how can I improve so yeah that's
02:19:05
that's the way that I approached it um and you know I still knew I was with Sky
02:19:09
um through until the end of 25 so uh I was very fortunate that a broadcast partner in superp sport um who work with
02:19:18
us very closely um s saw that I wasn't going but that I could I could add to
02:19:23
their Dynamic of the team they were sending so being not part of the sky dynamic they found a space for me and
02:19:32
ironically George grian as well to be part of their team so I didn't end up going like obviously I wanted to be
02:19:37
there with sky but I wasn't but I ended up going anyway and being part of a really good um broadcast setup and with
02:19:44
guys that I knew and um and I loved it I had a really awesome time over there yeah yeah you said you seem quite a good
02:19:51
attitude with things like that like you you know you take these setbacks on the churn go away look your wounds or
02:19:56
whatever and then I do Don um like I'm not you know not saying that I uh it didn't you know have an effect on me
02:20:04
yeah you know it always hurts when you're not um feel feels like you're rejected yeah when you're not part of
02:20:10
the team that that that that stings and it takes a bit of time to process and digest and and and you know you just got
02:20:19
to recognize that you actually like like a rugby team you are part of a team and
02:20:24
just because you're not part of this particular situation doesn't mean you're
02:20:27
alienated from the team and that you're not important to the team it just is a
02:20:32
decision that's being made for that particular point in time and you've got
02:20:36
just got to process that you know again probably me like I said earlier on learning learning about my
02:20:43
competitiveness learning about you know being being rejected or substituted um kind of helped but but
02:20:51
the initial you know period was was was was hard was tough and then you know you
02:20:57
just got to try and then um you keep your head up and move on and look it all turned out brilliantly for me anyway so
02:21:04
you know one minute you're thinking oh my God this is did I just say oh my God
02:21:09
one minute boy what Bo one minute you're thinking life is is um is is real [ __ ] and then you get and
02:21:21
then you find a pathway and and life goes on yeah and was brilliant how's how's you like how's your mental health
02:21:29
been over the years one you and I are exactly the same age I'm like six months
02:21:32
older than you one thing I know is that no one gets to like 50 without without being kicked on the Dick a couple of
02:21:37
times meally true yeah no mine's good mine's good um I think you probably you build
02:21:45
up uh a great deal of I guess um ability to make sure that you you don't let the the
02:21:55
little things bother you you know like I think probably real Catalyst for me was 1999
02:22:02
after being dropped for that Rugby World Cup uh and the criticism that I was getting from the media and the country I
02:22:09
think that kind of pressured John Hart into a decision that he he felt that he needed to make without actually just
02:22:15
using his real good coaching brain and going I'm not going to listen to All That noise and he did um but at the end
02:22:24
of 99 with the criticism The Fallout after the World Cup the loss and everything I was in a bad place and that
02:22:31
that didn't stop leading into the the the next year and I just I remember um
02:22:37
having the weight of the world on my shoulders and I was listening to everything reading the papers listening
02:22:42
to all the the the criticism and the comments about you know my time is done and all that sort of carry on and Wayne
02:22:50
Smith all people recognized it and he could see that I was you know walking heavy you know I was uh I I was I was
02:22:58
absorbing everything and he could see it in me and in my mannerisms and the way that I was uh behaving and um he came
02:23:06
and said to me mate you're right and I was like yeah he said no are you really
02:23:12
all right and I was like hey all this you know all of this um Spotlight on me and all this chat about whether I'm good
02:23:21
enough and whether my time's done and people criticizing my past and past and
02:23:27
you know my whether I was ever going to be an all black again and all I said he goes why are you listening to it and I
02:23:33
said I can't help it mate it's everywhere like everywhere I go you know yeah that was a different era like 25
02:23:39
years ago I know and I was like far out man I can't get away from it he said
02:23:42
yeah but why are you absorbing it all and I said well because it's in my face
02:23:46
and he said yeah but you don't need to um you don't need to take it all in he said
02:23:53
you need to learn and this is the key thing he said you need to learn to be a a filter he said so put put it all in
02:23:59
the filter and then he said filter the good stuff that you feel is valid and they come it's coming from the right
02:24:05
people and it's the right information and use it and he said the other stuff
02:24:11
just put it in the [ __ ] tray out that filter and just forget about it he said because it's not going to do you any
02:24:16
good if you absorb everything you're going to be a complete mess which you look like you are now and all of a
02:24:22
sudden I just put down quite a few of the poison pin you know just put aside a lot of the things that I was looking at
02:24:31
and listening to um because I couldn't help myself I was driving on the car and
02:24:35
radio sport was on and I'm like [ __ ] I wonder if they're talking about me I
02:24:38
wonder if they're talking about me so anyway I turned the radio on I'm sure enough they were and then then then
02:24:44
you you know yeah it poisons you it does clouds your judgment so I I eventually just stop doing all that and all of a
02:24:51
sudden if you're not hearing it it's not existent in your system it's not there
02:24:57
so you know and and as long as you got good people around you they won't tell
02:25:00
you that they'd just been listening to the the radio station or just read the
02:25:04
newspaper saying that you're [ __ ] they won't they won't bother with that
02:25:08
they'll just you know talk about other stuff so I think probably that's where I
02:25:13
I I built U my backbone you know back in 99 where I learned you know for all all
02:25:19
of that uh that's coming at you if you actually filter it in the right way you'll still be able to stay really
02:25:26
positive yeah what about um the Christ Church earthquakes what impact did that have on you and your family you you guys
02:25:32
you guys you love Christ Church but you left and moved to Queenston yeah we did we we pretty much they was the Catalyst
02:25:38
yeah it was yeah yeah and it wasn't running and hiding um our children weren't coping how how old were your
02:25:45
kids at the time eight six and four yeah yeah my partner she was living Queen um
02:25:51
Christ Church at the time she like she's still deeply impacted by it yeah yeah
02:25:55
yeah uh yeah had had a huge effect on the family um and in particular when you see your kids frightened you know and
02:26:04
you can't protect them that that that really has a has a um effect on the way
02:26:10
that you feel that you are parenting and the it was the aftershocks that really you know like every time there's
02:26:18
an Aftershock the look of fear and confusion on their faces cuz they got stuck at school like uh Luchia my my
02:26:26
daughter who was four Nicole had here when it hit but they kind of got thrown in the car across the road and they were
02:26:33
lucky cuz we were on a hill in Su um and literally just picked the car up and threw it across so she had
02:26:40
already got her from school from kindergarten but the other two boys got stuck at Su school and obviously there
02:26:47
was there was deaths from rockfall and that around and and but we couldn't get
02:26:51
to them and so they were obviously on their own you know um so yeah very hard for them because they didn't have the
02:27:01
appearance to kind of get to them real quick and funny enough um they were looked after by Jane Robinson who's
02:27:10
Scott Robinson's wife amazing yeah so because we're all Suna people and she
02:27:16
was able to get there cuz she was on the flat yeah living in the flat but we're
02:27:19
living on the Hills but no it was a very very um significant time in terms of looking at them and
02:27:27
just knowing that they weren't right and that that mentally you talk about that
02:27:31
mental side of it um they weren't handling it and we had the ability to move but simply because we just got back
02:27:38
from the UK so we were only renting a house so we had nothing holding us to Christ Church um and we didn't leave out
02:27:44
of not wanting to support and be part of what choss church was going through but
02:27:49
first you have to look into inside your own front door and inside our front door
02:27:53
I saw three kids completely um broken by what have happened to them and they weren't
02:27:59
handling it and the more aftershocks that happen the worse they were getting cuz they were just rumbles and it's that
02:28:05
uncontrollable you know you can't control that so yeah we we opted to uh to leave and haven't haven't looked back
02:28:11
he had been in Queenstown uh since then so that was um completely different to where I thought
02:28:17
I would be when I moved back from the UK yeah yeah um what about your best and worst qualities what do you think your
02:28:23
best and worst qualities are or let's rephrase that say um your wife Nicole how long you guys been
02:28:31
together since um golly you're you're going to ask me about how long would be
02:28:36
married aren't you no I'm not going to wouldn't throw you a throw you a
02:28:40
hospital past like that so but it's a as it's successful relationship you've been
02:28:45
together over 20 years right yeah yeah we have absolutely it's amazing and by
02:28:49
by the way yeah we used we used to kick around in py like I I work through the plaza in
02:28:54
palas North one day she was working in a shop called a spre and she's the most
02:28:58
this isn't an insult by the way this is serious she's the most beautiful girl
02:29:01
I've ever seen in paliston North oh wow awesome oh I'm going to relay that yeah
02:29:06
I obviously thought the same thing didn't I so uh but that wasn't from palon North that was from CH but but you
02:29:11
what would she say your best and worst qualities um yes I think probably um best and worst qualities are probably
02:29:21
similar to be perfectly honest like I I enjoy as much as anybody a a good socializing um situation like we're
02:29:29
having now uh and and a few beers but probably um when you think about uh responsibility and and that you know
02:29:39
sometimes I I get the sort of I don't know the the better side of having a good time um Let it go too far you know
02:29:47
you kind of like probably should just recognize that there's um you know there's a there's kids sport on or doing
02:29:55
whatever um but no I think when I when I think about me as a people person it's
02:30:01
kind of then balances out that way as well uh that that I enjoy being around people and functioning around people as
02:30:08
well so and then a lot of my life is is revolving around um dealing with complete strangers which is a weird uh
02:30:17
situation to be in because you you're literally having conversations with people and um commanding their time and
02:30:25
they're commanding your time and you don't know them so you're like small
02:30:30
talking big time yeah that that to me is um that to me is kind of a funny Dynamic of what I do uh and
02:30:40
and a lot of that is is some of the corporate stuff but equally people you see at grounds and all that sort of
02:30:45
carry on and they stop you and they want to chat and ask you questions and and that sort of thing so I think in terms
02:30:50
of one of my best qualities it's my patience and everything that I've told
02:30:54
you defies that answer because it doesn't sound like I'm a it doesn't sound like I'm a patient
02:31:01
person yeah yeah uh but but I am um because you know you've got to be um have the ability to it's that it's that
02:31:12
um it's that 101 rule isn't it which I learned quite quite quite quickly which
02:31:17
is you know you can you can have a conversation with someone um and and that can be good and the person will go
02:31:24
away and they'll tell one person that you know um Justin was a really nice guy
02:31:30
and he took the time and you know we grabbed a photo Etc um you have a conversation with
02:31:37
someone and you say you know what you've actually taken up enough of my time and
02:31:40
you've actually been quite rude so uh if you don't mind I don't want to talk to
02:31:44
you anymore and they'll go tell 10 people and that's the of lay of the land
02:31:49
isn't it you can't can't win so you've got to be got to have the ability to be
02:31:52
incredibly patient to allow people to have their time but that's impacting on
02:31:58
your time you know it's like okay you've now had 20 minutes of telling me why you
02:32:04
know you're not good at your job and why you know this is going wrong and that's
02:32:08
going wrong but I'm thinking but I've also got three people here that I've
02:32:12
been socializing with that you've taken up their time and my time with them but
02:32:16
the minute you tell them to piss off um you're the villain yeah the the threshold for that sort of thing if
02:32:23
you're if you want know it's quite high like even even if you have a photo with
02:32:27
someone and then just see them on their weather they can be like oh he wasn't
02:32:30
particularly friendly no no but you're actually you're not you're not part of
02:32:34
their evening yeah but they make you part and then yeah so I think probably patience for me is is is one of my
02:32:41
better qualities and then and then equally as you've heard um my probably my competitiveness gets the better of me
02:32:48
more than you think you know yeah still still I can tell yeah it does it's a
02:32:52
blessing and occurs it is and you know competitiveness can can spiral and uh I think probably the more that gets out of
02:33:00
my system now the better you know I don't know I think if you've still got that at our age like 51 it's
02:33:07
not it's you know it might um sort of dim a little bit but it's always going
02:33:11
to be there yeah it is but it also it can lead you into a rabbit hole you know and uh and you can sometimes you know
02:33:19
speak out of turn or whatever just simply because competitiveness sometimes can be frustration can you know so it's
02:33:26
like um but yeah patience and competitiveness so patience good quality competitiveness it's been great but it
02:33:35
can be a negative yeah yeah um what about Legacy how would you like to be remembered um there somebody that uh
02:33:44
basically was very grateful with what I was able to achieve um and feeling like what what I did in life
02:33:55
um was what the game gave me you know I think it's very clear to me that what
02:34:01
happened to me in my in my youth in the pathway that I was going down and then that then that big Catalyst uh situation
02:34:10
the assault that we we spoke about and then rugby grabbed a hold of me with me having impact on that as well knowing
02:34:17
that that's where I need to escape escape and and that I know that I can do something with
02:34:24
rugby change my life um and and the Legacy in that is is people seeing that and knowing that they can do the same
02:34:34
thing that you might be down a pathway or in a situation that is not where you want to be but there are always lots of
02:34:43
good stories out there of people that have been there that have been able to turn it around yeah um and I feel that
02:34:51
if that's a message that' be a message I'd like to give a lot of people you
02:34:54
know that we all feel like we're sometimes trapped but you're only as trapped as you want to be if you haven't
02:35:01
got the right mindset and um good people around you so yeah I've always been very
02:35:06
thankful and and grateful for what I got out of the out of the jersey and out of
02:35:09
the game like at the end of the day mate I look back and I was the first professional not myself personally the
02:35:16
people that I was with first W yeah the first wave of professionals and I back at my teammates in ' 995 9
02:35:24
'95 uh and and before that and none of them got to live uh a livelihood by playing the game you know like like pine
02:35:33
tree was telling me stories when I was away on the tour with him in ' 95 um he's like yeah they used to go to get to
02:35:42
the UK that took them I don't know like 12 weeks or something like that like on
02:35:47
a boat on a boat yeah wow and he said they got a daily allowance of I don't know maybe it was
02:35:53
something like three Shillings and he said three Shillings or whatever it was he said so he said there was a phone and
02:35:59
he said there always used to be a phone um queue to ring back and he would need to ring back cuz he would need to ring
02:36:06
back to the farm to make sure everything's functioning on the farm back in um te te yeah uh to ver his wife
02:36:14
and um verer and um he he said that he would be standing in the queue but the queue was taking forever and he did know
02:36:23
that obviously with with that money that he could also go buy a couple of points
02:36:27
so he's sitting there jingling these things thinking this C and he said he must admit every now
02:36:32
and then he just decided you know what I'll make the phone call tomorrow and
02:36:35
off'd go to the bar and spend his money in the bar on the boat um but I think
02:36:40
you know the the again I talked to you about timing and luck you know like when I look back at what a lot of those All
02:36:46
Blacks rugby players in general had to do before us and didn't get paid to do
02:36:50
it um that you know they they sacrificed everything for for the Jersey yeah you know and uh lot many of them costing
02:36:58
them their livelihoods to be away for 3 months from New Zealand when they're on
02:37:02
a UK Tour on boats and stuff you know like man so yeah I think um you know Legacy is is all about making sure that
02:37:13
you you recognize history in the past that you've that you've yes you added to it
02:37:20
but equally you hope that you teach people that go forward that you know behaving with respect to what's been
02:37:27
before us as the way to make sure you look after that Jersey yeah I reckon that's probably a
02:37:34
good place to end it mainly because I need a piss again yeah do you not far off what are we four deep mate this this
02:37:41
has been um incredible longest podcast ever we haven't even like bought up Andrew Mertens either the whole Mertens
02:37:47
Marshal oh yeah time hey um thanks for being so generous with your time he that's been that's been that's been
02:37:55
really great it's been really cool no thank you very much for for having me I've really enjoyed coming on it's nice
02:38:00
just to um just spin stories and not have um the worry about where they they gravitate to is it it's like we actually
02:38:12
could be sitting in a bar somewhere and just shooting the [ __ ] you know and talking about um you know the way things
02:38:18
have kind of evolved for both of us in our 51 years um and you 51 years and 6 months that's
02:38:26
good it's good I I um I like where I'm made in life I I sort of think it's like
02:38:30
um yeah we're into the second half of of The Game of Life yeah um but there's
02:38:35
still a lot of game left to play yeah there is um yeah right now we're taking
02:38:38
you off putting Byron on no [ __ ] don't do that don't do that no no no so um if
02:38:43
you do that you won't be allowed to go for a piss there was the um the all black career which is amazing the the
02:38:48
media side of things which is going great for you as well um yeah I'm excited to see what's next maybe it'll
02:38:53
be a continuation of the media maybe there'll be a like a third chapter yeah
02:38:57
this is right yeah and you just don't know do you it's an interesting Dynamic
02:39:00
of moving from like I said uh contract to contract you know um and really enjoying what we're doing with this
02:39:07
podcast and uh you know that's that's a that's a pivot which is quite cool yep
02:39:12
Lincoln bio Lincoln bi exactly and then equally the you know who knows you know like like I said I've
02:39:19
I don't know if fully out of my system coaching is is um is completely gone but
02:39:24
yeah well on that so um yeah Graham Henry when he won the World Cup in 2011 what was he like 71
02:39:30
85 he's like Biden he wasn't young was he he yeah hey Justin Marsh it's been an
02:39:36
absolute pleasure mate thank you so much for your time thank you so much for having me mate I really appreciate it
02:39:40
it's been good fun