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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in it again. Hey Finn, how's the
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performance going? >> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In
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here, you'll find our top performers helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
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investments. Get in here, Finn. Maximize. Generate. putting performance first. >> Nigel Ladder, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thank you, Donald. It's it's great to be here. >> I the it is um such an honor for me. I
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was saying to you just a couple of seconds ago like you're a white whale guest for me. This is like a dream guest
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and even more so I think given the the current circumstances. >> Well, I it's it's a good day out for me
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because my days now mostly staying at home. So actually getting to come out and do stuff is kind of cool. Uh and uh
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I've you know I've watched a few of your podcasts and stuff and so it's yeah it's
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cool. It's cool cool being here. It still seems odd to me that anybody would
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want to chat to me about stuff that I've done cuz I just think well I just did
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stuff you know. So this is >> but you've done um like you've done so I
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I put on Instagram that you were coming in and did anyone have any questions and
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um to be honest like 80% of it was just like well wishes and just people saying >> people have been people are super nice.
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Do you know what I It's like every time you um I've always had I should stop
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turning away from the microphone, shouldn't I? I I've always been really
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confident in the fundamental kind of goodness of people because they just are. And so people have been lovely.
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Like I've had some lovely messages of uh support and stuff like that. The bit that some of us funny the antiax
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people. I I found a thread just because I'm bored. I found a thread on Reddit
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where they were debating is it him getting his just desserts now that he's got turbo cancer. Have you heard about
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turbo cancer? No. Comes from the vaccine. Is he getting his just desserts now because he was one of the people
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advocating for vaccines? And some people were saying, "Yeah, it's totally fair.
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You should have." Other people saying, "Well, it's a little bit harsh. It's
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like so that's I find that hilarious." So apparently I've got the turbo cancer.
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>> Turbo. Well, it sounds really dramatic. >> It sounds quite cool. Um, I'm sure we
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can answer it. No. >> Hey, so um, we're recording this a few days, um, before your your next
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birthday. You've got a birthday next week. >> No, >> no, >> no.
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>> Bloody Wikipedia. >> No. >> No. I don't believe anything really. Uh,
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July is >> Oh, really? Yeah. >> Oh, well, I [ __ ] that one up completely.
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>> Yeah, >> I'll take it. >> Well, I guess in light of Well, I
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thought it was your birthday next week, but I suppose when you had your last birthday in July, like you you um were
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aware of the cancer then. Um, I was going to say, but it was only fairly recently. So, it's only been 4 months
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that I've been on this particular road, >> right? >> Uh, so yeah, the early part of the year
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was just trucking along, you know, working, working, working, trucking along, and then you get to a Monday
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morning and it all just changes. >> So, it's only been four months. So, so
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four months ago, you got told you've got between 6 months and a year to live.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. And that was that was um that was that was a we I'd had the thing
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with the the um in the GI person, the gastro person. Uh and so this was the meeting with the surgeon the next day
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and to be fair he was this lovely man like he was a really lovely man and cuz he said you've got it's it's incurable
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like it's inoperable. We can't take it out. And so you know you you want to
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know a number. So we just said, "Look, just tell us a number." And um he went
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like, "I really don't like doing that cuz it's hard to put a number on stuff."
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And and my partner, my wife, who's also a psychologist, said, "Look, we're
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psychologist. We can handle it. Just just just give us a number." And then he
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said this 6 to 12 months. And it's like I remember it's been punched in the
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brain. I remember thinking, "Could you give me another number?" Like, "Have you
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got any other ones? >> Is it a negotiable? >> That's your first offer. Let's let's
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push out." Since then, it's all changed since then because I've now um you enter
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oncology and that's a just this winding path of lots of options. And so, actually, it's been going uh pretty
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well. Like, I'm four months into chemo. I've had a number of lucky breaks. Like,
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I'm I've got the right I've got a really good tumor type. It's fast growing,
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which is good because when it divides, that's when it can kind of get got at.
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Uh I can take her, which is um a targeted therapy. uh and I can also do imunotherapy which so the combination of
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kind of chemo and these two sorts of uh other drugs are really good for me. So now it's very optimistic. Now I'm
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looking forward to being here for a long time. >> So you're living not dying.
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>> Yeah. Like I just don't like for the first few days it felt like I was dying,
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you know, cuz it was just shock and trauma and all of the rest of that stuff. And I remember the day that we
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got told that um like I remember going we left the place we were standing outside and I just like I literally had
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no idea what to do in that moment. I thought I don't know what to do or where
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to go. And so fortunately a friend was there uh and I just thought I can make a freaking decision. I thought we can't go
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home. I don't know why we just couldn't. Uh, and so we went to her place and then
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um we Yeah, we went there and started calling people. It was very very grim. And uh
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>> why why couldn't you go home? >> I just in my head it was like no can't
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do that yet. Like cuz the the kids were at home and I thought I like I need to get my [ __ ] together. Like we can't we
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can't be walking into the in the middle of this. Like that's so so it was just
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let's avoid that for a bit. So that night we went to a hotel and just I ate lots of ice cream and cried. And then
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from the next day it got better cuz from the next day we started to see the oncologist and um who's my new favorite
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guy like this really smart guy. Um and and then options start opening up and things start improving. So it went from
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the bleakest of the bleak to actually now it it's going forward. And it's been
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good learning because you spend your whole I spent people a long time telling people how to be resilient. It's like,
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okay, so let's practice some of those things now. >> Yeah. I um I watched a TED talk on
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YouTube that you did um and it just one one of the key messages in there was um it could always be worse.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, it can. And um >> how how for you? >> Well, the 6 to 12 months could be true.
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That gives me till November, you know. I mean, imagine if you ask, "How long have
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I got?" And he went about I'd say 25 30 minutes. like um no like it can always be worse. And
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so I I do I think that um one of the things I've kind of always believed is that basically life is just a big bus
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and you're either going to be a passenger or you're going to drive the bus. And so you have to you have to
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drive the bus. You have to kind of take charge of the things that are happening to you. Um and so so kind of part of my
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thinking in those initial days was just like your job now is to make it easier on the people around you. like that's
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that's something I can do and that there's a lot of things I can't control
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but I can control how I am and how I am with the people around me >> and that that's uh it's like it's a
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really simple idea but it's pretty powerful. >> Easier said than done though because you
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know you tend to save your your worst behavior for the people that you love the most and you'd have every right to
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be like you know a [ __ ] pain in the ass at that particular point. Well, and it's not to say that I don't get kind of
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mopy and feel a bit sorry for myself during some of the days of um the chemo stuff, but I just work really it's like
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wallowing is it's like the world at the moment's in this weird space where you're
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everything kind of this is a toxic masculinity, right? and and toughing it out is bad
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and blah, but actually sometimes toughing it out and just hardening the [ __ ] up is the most important thing to
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do. And it's like >> I if I really care about the people around me, I can try to make their lives
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easier. And when I do that, when I do this act of generosity towards other people, it makes me feel better.
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Whenever I whenever I behave like an [ __ ] or I do something that's selfish
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or I do something that's unkind, it doesn't even in the moment when you feel
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justified in doing it, it's never made me feel good. The stuff that makes me
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feel good is when you're being generous and helping the people around you. And
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so really early on I just decided that I'm just going to do everything I can to
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make it easier for the people around me rather than harder. And it's just >> it just works. It does make life easier.
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>> It's it's Yeah, it's common sense. Like if I ever um you see the red mist and
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lose my call at a stranger or someone I know, I feel bad about it for hours afterwards. Like it just doesn't it
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doesn't make you feel good. >> Um it even sometimes you feel really justified in doing it
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>> cuz the other person was being a complete dick, >> but it's just never worked. And the only
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thing that's ever worked for me is stepping back from that and thinking, okay, what's something kind I can do for
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this person who's being an [ __ ] right now? Because no one like no one's born
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an [ __ ] Well, there's that's not I think there a small percentage of people
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who literally are. Everyone else is just a bit tangled up and most people are doing things cuz they're even the
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antivax people that are debating whether or not I deserve turbo cancer. Those guys like
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they're still that's coming from a place of they're really they think this
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harmful thing was done to the world and so they're trying to speak out against
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it. Like I understand why they're doing it. I just some of it I just find a bit
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hilarious. So yeah, I think the world's everyone's supposed to feel good about
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everything all the time and you're never supposed to just tough it out. Well,
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actually sometimes that's the best thing to do. Like what else are you going to
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do? Fall on the ground and and kind of whimper. And that's I've done a little
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I've done that, too. >> But you can't do that all the time. You have to stand up and and push on.
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>> And you you definitely are. So Oh, yeah. So yeah. So, the the day you found out,
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you spend the night in the hotel eating the ice cream. Um, >> the ice cream
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>> because the kids are at home. You've got two kids, two sons in their 20s.
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>> So, so I've got a I've got five in total. Uh, there's a a girl and a boy
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and then a girl, sorry, a boy and a girl and a boy. So, >> is it like a blended situation?
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>> Yeah, a blended situation. So, the the two oldest are mine and then um and then
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Natalie and I we sort of co-parent the her her three kids as well. >> What are their ages? a little younger.
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>> Uh but yeah, so they're kind of 18 uh 18 and 17 and uh 14. So we've got a great
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lumbering 14-year-old in the house. >> So are you rereading your books, you
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know? >> Well, I mean it helps having been there, right? It's like and I understand boys
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and boys are the best thing about boys is you say, "How was your day?" And they
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go, "Good." And that's it. We're all done. Like that's the day wrapped up. Um
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whereas girls, they talk a lot more about stuff. And so you when you ask them how the day is, you got to have a
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chair and like a a drink of water, clear the clear the afternoon. >> So So did you guys um I mean they're all
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ages where you can sort of I suppose have adult conversations with them, but did you is that what you did in the
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hotel? You discussed how you were going to message it the next day or >> No, we kind of didn't do it in the
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morning. Most of you just sat in the hotel and cried and I ate ice cream. And um the one thing I do regret is one of
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the newspaper articles that came out after I put my little video out said that I went to a hotel and I scream and
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cried. I saying no there was someone else with me like I did seems slightly less pathetic.
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>> I know it seems a slightly pathetic thing. What did you do? I went to a
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hotel by myself. Checked in. Just sat there crying in the middle of the room eating ice cream. Um
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>> if I read that I'd be like he was definitely watching the hotel porn.
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>> The ice cream's a distraction. >> I know. So, so no, we we kind of the
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next morning we kind of got our heads around the fact that um how we were going to talk to the kids
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about all this stuff. And it does help that we buy shrinks. So, it's like you
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do have some things to fill back and it's also irritating because you do have
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to practice the things you've been preaching and sometimes those things are quite hard to practice.
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>> Yeah. So, um September 5, 5:32 p.m. That's when the video went live. Um
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yeah. >> Yeah. Why did you decide to do that now? It's kind of the drive the bus thing.
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So, actually you sent me I remember you sent me an email a while ago about coming on the podcast and at that point
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I was thinking I'm going to do this but I'm going to do this it wasn't the right
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time then basically a couple of journalists have been calling um asking to write something about it and I
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thought yeah I kind of want to that I want to be in control of the message and do it in the way that I want
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it. I don't want to be talking to a print journalist and have to worry about
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how they write it and how it sounds. So, and that's the great thing about social
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media now. You can just make a little video, >> control the narrative. >> Yeah. And say to people, "Hey, so this
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is a thing." And then uh but people have been super nice. Like it's I wish
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everybody >> I wish everyone that got cancer could have all these people saying these super
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nice things to them because people are just really, >> you know, just people just lovely.
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People are nice. >> Um yeah, I mean the there's thousands of comments including I saw one from um
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Sonia Yell who's Lord's mom um saying you helped raise her kids. You know
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what? I'm >> which is awesome. >> I'm I've been talking to lawyers. I need
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a cut of the Lord. I played a role there. I thought that was so hor in some small maybe a large way I
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contributed to Lord's >> Yeah. No, I mean I mean this this validation it's it's only um I mean it's
00:13:42
strange on the internet. Um but it still must be incredibly humbling. It says a lot about the impact you've had on
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society over the last 30 odd years. >> Yeah. I know it's it is really nice and
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and particularly particularly over the last little bit it it um it does it does feel really nice when people say that
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but there's always this thing in there that like everything I've done has been
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a part of teams and so if you're the presenter on tally they think it's your
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TV show and it's like no there's a whole bunch of us made that stuff so it's like
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it it's always that I always feel like saying >> that's really I'll let the other people
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know who are part of making the stuff as well cuz it's like everything I've done
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has been part of a team. It's like it's everything is everything's a
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collaborative process. >> Yeah. And um there's a book that you've recommended called Life Hacks from the
00:14:28
Buddha. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, that was the post you did after the the video post announcing that you
00:14:33
had cancer. >> Yeah. So Tony Tony Fernando, who's a psychiatrist, wrote the book. It's a
00:14:37
really good book. Um and uh it's I kind of expected it to be sort of the usual
00:14:43
self-helpy stuff, but Tony, as well as being a psychiatrist and a really good psychiatrist, he's also a Buddhist monk.
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And so it's kind of he takes Buddhism and talks about how you can apply that
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to your life now. And you don't have to think about Buddhism as a religion. And
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in fact, the Buddha never really took a position on it. People would say to him,
00:15:00
"So what's what happens after you die?" And he went, "Look, don't worry about
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that. Just focus on now." Um, so you don't it's not it's not really a
00:15:07
religious thing. It's more just a it's a it's a philosophy and a a series of kind
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of ideas about >> how to be that make you kind of suffer less and make it easier to feel um to
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feel kind of happier and content in life. So I've always been a sort of a closet Buddhist you know like I'm a bit
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Buddhist not all the way like Tony in the book he talks about how Buddhist monks will if there's ants they'll scoot
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them all up and take them outside. I had a bunch of ants on the bench yesterday.
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I just fly straight back. You guys just know. So like I I don't do the whole thing. And and
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sometimes it's interesting. We're talking about this the other day. My my
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my my son said that sometimes um he was talking about a project he had to do in class and he didn't like the lecturer
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and so he kind of he wanted to succeed out of spite despite this guy. >> Amazing. And sometimes spite's a good
00:16:00
little motivator, you know, like it's not the healthiest, I guess, in some ways, but it's like it's a it I've done
00:16:06
some things just the thing that motivates me is out of spite. And it's like it's not a very Buddhist thing to
00:16:12
do, but it works. >> Yeah. Yeah. Use your haters as your motivators. There's something to it.
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>> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Right. Um that's probably enough about the the the cancer for now. We'll get
00:16:20
back to that later, but there's so much um of the Nigel letter story to unpack.
00:16:23
So um born in Awamu 1967. Um I I heard you say maybe on another podcast um you described it as quote an interesting
00:16:31
place to grow up. What? >> It was a [ __ ] place to grow up. >> Was it why?
00:16:35
>> Omry is cool now, but it was a [ __ ] place to grow up cuz it was like I I was
00:16:39
kind of growing up in the sort of late '7s and ' 80s. So I was a teenager in
00:16:43
the 80s and I went to this um boys which is like all boy schools of the 80s was a
00:16:49
toxic and shitty place. Um didn't wasn't interested in sports at all. Um and at
00:16:57
at at White Boys in 1980s, if you got a blazer, which is some, you know, a prize
00:17:02
from the school for um for rugby or cricket or something, people if you got one an academic blazer,
00:17:10
people beat you up cuz they thought you were gay. Like that was sort of that was
00:17:13
our in 1980 in Omro. The way that we thought you could tell someone was gay, if they're smart, they're definitely
00:17:18
gay, which is like you think it's like, so what? heterosexual people was stupid. Like
00:17:24
that was the thing. So I I yeah I hated Waki Boys when I went there. Um and I just couldn't wait to get out of Omaru.
00:17:33
Now it's cool. Like now I'm You should go and visit Omar. Now it's really cool.
00:17:36
They've got the steampunk stuff going on. There's penguins and nice little
00:17:40
cafes and things. But yeah, back in the 80s I didn't like it at all. >> It sounds similar to um to my school
00:17:47
experience. So I went to Palmer Boys High like um mid 80s to 1990. Um got called a [ __ ] every day.
00:17:55
>> Yeah. It was just and it wasn't any it wasn't any particular school. That was
00:17:58
just kind of what happened. And >> no one intervened. And you know, we would practice hackers for the these
00:18:04
first 15 matches and the prefects would scream and yell at you. And the weird thing is I remember them like in my
00:18:11
memory. They were these [ __ ] huge hulking gorillas screaming at us. And I found an old school magazine and looked
00:18:17
back and they were just skinny little teenage boys. But at the time, >> but if they're older than you, I suppose
00:18:21
they have a size advantage. There's nothing more more gratifying than being like for me at least being 18, 19, 20
00:18:27
going out and seeing the guys from the first 15 as adults now still wearing you know still wearing their rugby shirt or
00:18:34
living on the other glory days of their life. >> I know. I know. I always kind of think
00:18:38
like if you're if you're if high school's amazing that's not a good sign
00:18:42
>> if you don't want to peek at high school. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So what what were you like as a what was
00:18:46
like as a kid? I I read you bought yourself a typewriter at the age of 13. So you you must have had a like a
00:18:50
creative creative side. >> Yeah. like I wanted to write books. That was the the the life plan for me was
00:18:55
writing novels. That's what I wanted to do at that point. Um and um so yeah, I
00:19:00
was just like a I was always kind of I I like I was the only seventh former not made a prefect at the school like they
00:19:08
were third year six were becoming prefect and that was a smart move like cuz I would have been a disaster because
00:19:13
um I was just all anti-establishment. I remember the um the governor general came to a school prize giving to give
00:19:20
and I won a prize for English and so I went to the a bookshop and got um Carl Marx the first hundred years because I
00:19:28
know in my sort of school boy oh that that'll put the wind up the governor general marks and stuff um he just gave
00:19:34
it to me and shook my hand I've still got it never read it was a stupid book I
00:19:38
should have got an aster >> why um yeah were you were you just like an angry angsty teen or what was it I
00:19:44
just it's like I just didn't I didn't like bollocks and I just thought this is
00:19:50
all bollocks like I I got a detention once cuz I wouldn't sing God save the queen in assembly such a snot and I
00:19:57
remember Mr. Kissle, who was a lovely man, he said, "What's the why won't
00:20:00
weren't you sing you're not singing God Save the Queen ladder?" And I went,
00:20:03
"Well, no, cuz like she lives in a palace and she's got like servant stuff.
00:20:06
We should sing God save the starving little African kids." I didn't care
00:20:10
about the starving little African kids. I was just being a dick. So >> why why were you being said to fire?
00:20:17
>> Um it just I don't know. It just seemed like much more interesting to me than um
00:20:20
Well, that's my little beeper to tell me to take stuff, but I've already taken
00:20:23
it, so I'll dismiss that. Um, I I just kind of like the idea of poking a stick
00:20:28
into all that stuff and not taking it too seriously. >> Just questioning authority.
00:20:31
>> Yeah. I just thought, well, why why am I singing God Save the Queen? Cuz I never
00:20:34
met her. I'm sure she's fine, but she seems okay. Like, I don't think she
00:20:37
needs us to sing. >> What What was What was that beeper? What do you need to take?
00:20:40
>> Ah, see, now I'm such my life is so different that uh I have to have an app
00:20:45
to tell me which pills to take when because my day is a series of a series of pills I take. Um, you know, so
00:20:51
there's the chemo drugs and there's nauseous stuff and there's heart stuff
00:20:54
cuz I also discovered I've got a dicky heart. It's like, come on. Cuz I start
00:20:59
looking at everything. Um, so I've I take heart stuff now. I'm Yeah, I >> So every every 3 hours, four hours.
00:21:07
Yeah, it's about every every 3 hours there's a big there's a big pile in the
00:21:11
morning first thing and then there's another lot about 10:00 and then there's
00:21:14
be another lot sort of 11:30 12 and then more at three and then more at and it's
00:21:19
mostly just about keeping the nausea under control because chemo gives you nausea because it's basically chemo is
00:21:23
taking a blunt like it's a cheese grater to all the fast dividing cells in your
00:21:28
body so you get all these weird symptoms but again I'm lucky because I don't get
00:21:32
as many symptoms as a lot of other people and I don't have them as extreme so it's fine
00:21:38
You're so positive about things. Well, >> I mean, I suppose you It's a choice,
00:21:42
isn't it? I suppose you you have to be, but it' be I mean, it'd be understandable and easy to have a bit of
00:21:46
self-pity. >> Yeah. And I do have that like there are there are definitely times like there
00:21:49
are days when um I've got like at the moment about another 11 weeks of chemo
00:21:54
to go and there are days when you just lie there and just go, "Oh man, this
00:21:58
sucks." Um but it yeah I just kind of I always think um it'll be fine and if it's if it's not
00:22:07
deal with it when you get there and so >> how I kind of reframe all the symptom
00:22:12
stuff is like it's good. >> It's interesting I a special forces guy
00:22:17
we watched a video years ago but a special forces guy saying you know if you want to improve your resilience you
00:22:22
just it's just you can do that with one word whatever happens you just say good.
00:22:26
So, you're feeling sick, good, that means it's working. You know, you're
00:22:29
feeling uh really ground down and done. Good. That means it's really working. It
00:22:33
doesn't work all the time, but I try and practice that a lot cuz it's just
00:22:37
better, easier. >> [ __ ] This I mean, we've only been going 20 minutes. There's already been so many
00:22:42
good takeaways. You just dispense you dispense advice without even knowing it. Well, the thing is
00:22:50
unlike look where I've been lucky is that I've got to spend basically my
00:22:53
entire life reading about stuff that helps people being kind of kneede at helping people for 20ome years doing all
00:23:01
these telly shows where you go out and you've got researchers that find super
00:23:05
interesting people for you to talk to. And so really all I've need to do is just be awake and pay attention to stuff
00:23:12
that's happening around me. you just pick up these kind of useful things and
00:23:15
most of the good stuff people thought generations ago like thousands of years ago. All the good thinking has been
00:23:21
done. There's no new thinking. >> There's just um there's just the old
00:23:24
stuff repackaged. >> Yeah. So um so after after the Y techie experience um you go to university um
00:23:32
get a zoology and marine science degree. >> Yes. Why? >> Well, so university I I went I went to
00:23:38
university when it was free. I think we paid $300 in student fees and we bitched
00:23:42
about that. It's like why am I paying $300? I didn't even go this year. Um,
00:23:47
and so I ranged through a whole bunch of careers at university. And uh, I originally uh thought I was going to be
00:23:53
a philosopher because that was the least Omaru thing I thought you could study. Uh, but then I went to a philosophy
00:23:59
lecture and they said, "Should you eat the bread of the plate?" And I went,
00:24:02
"This is just stupid. Like I know the answer to that. I need to go find that."
00:24:05
Only later I discovered that actually philosophy is super interesting. Um but I and I I I I I
00:24:14
was going to do um the only science subject you could do at stage two without chemistry was um I
00:24:21
think zoologology at that point and geology and some of those things and basically I had cheated through my
00:24:27
entire six form year and copied Don Clark's assignments in chemistry and got
00:24:31
accredited in chemistry. I understood nothing about it at all. I still don't
00:24:34
to this day. Chemistry is a complete mystery to me. So I wanted to ditch that. Um, and I'd watched Jacqu Kustar
00:24:39
as a kid. Um, and uh, I thought, "Oh, I'll be a marine biologist. That sounds
00:24:43
pretty awesome." So, so yeah, I peeled off and did zoology. Uh, and then, um,
00:24:50
with this idea of doing marine science after that, I wanted to go to the Antarctic to do a research project, but
00:24:55
because I was such an idiot, I left it way too late. So, by the time I talked them was already too late. Um, so yes, I
00:25:01
did zoo and marine science. I got within two weeks of joining the police back then because that was uh, something I
00:25:06
was kind of super interested in doing. and then um changed tack and came up to Oakland did psychology up here.
00:25:12
>> When was the music career? Was that in between those two? The the Gavin
00:25:14
Thornton steam injected. >> Yeah, we we were a thing. >> What was what was that? Were you a
00:25:19
ukulele player? No. What did you >> Yeah, I play ukulele and a bit of harmonica uh and um kazoo and stuff like
00:25:26
that. We we had we knew this guy Stuart who actually really was talented and he played in proper bands. Um and we just
00:25:32
thought it'd be fun to go busking. We thought we could raise some money for beer basically. Um, and so we we set
00:25:37
this little skiffl band up with a teacher's bass and ukulele and washboards and all that kind of stuff.
00:25:42
Um, and we went away for a weekend to Twisle and I think our first gig in the Twisle Mall, we got drunk first. That
00:25:52
was a bad idea cuz we couldn't do anything. So, we made 20 cents. The next day we thought, okay, let's do it not
00:25:57
being drunk and see how that goes. And we made enough, I think, to buy two and a half jugs of beer or something. So, we
00:26:03
thought, oh, this is quite good. So we just did that for a fun thing for the year and um yeah that was my that was my
00:26:08
musical career in Gavin Thornton's. >> So what so how old were you when you
00:26:11
went back to back to study and to do psychology? God that must have been must be having never been to university
00:26:18
myself like you you do these years you get a degree does it feel like a waste of time? No, cuz cuz even the
00:26:23
zoologology and marine science stuff, like at the time I thought, "Oh, I did
00:26:26
all that stuff and I'll never use it." And then I had kids and it's like I
00:26:29
could go to the beach and say wise things about the various little creatures skimming about in the in the
00:26:34
in the in the water and stuff. Um, no, but it w it was very different back then because it was free. And so I this is
00:26:40
where kids now have it so much harder. like they have to every year cost them a fortune and so they have to really think
00:26:47
about what's the subject I'm doing and I don't know how you can know that
00:26:52
>> before you do it like I chopped and changed all over the place and then you
00:26:54
know >> then we decided that uh all the people that got free education decided that it
00:26:59
simply wasn't right for people to get free education so they bought them fees
00:27:02
and now kids came out with these massive debts and end up doing courses they don't like and a bunch of things but
00:27:07
>> but what was the motivation for psychology what was the catalyst to go back and study that
00:27:11
>> um I quite liked Like I I I like the idea of working with people and I've
00:27:16
always been sort of my sort of approach to things is like you know that whole thing about if
00:27:21
there's two paths diverged in the wood >> like if if I came to a wood and there
00:27:26
was two paths and there was a dude there and the dude said look definitely go this way. It's flat. It's paved. There's
00:27:33
good lighting. There's a little cafe up there um and comfy seats. Don't go down
00:27:37
there. There's some [ __ ] up [ __ ] down there. I would totally that I'm going
00:27:42
that way straight away. Like I just thought the world's an interesting place
00:27:47
and I wanted to kind of see more of that and I was interested in like why people
00:27:52
do bad things um and what are people who do bad things like and so the psychology
00:27:58
stuff um yeah that sort of that interested me. Um so yeah I just kind of did it cuz I thought oh that I'm going
00:28:04
to I'm going to learn some interesting things if I if I do that which I which I
00:28:08
did. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, we'll get into the TV stuff, but yeah, Beyond the Darklands,
00:28:12
one of my one of my favorite TV shows of the last 20 years. Never missed an episode. Fascinating.
00:28:17
>> And the weird thing is I had more information about the guys that we profiled on that show than I did um in
00:28:23
any psychology report that I ever wrote because we would have producers who would spend six or eight months going
00:28:28
around and gathering all this information up about people. And so it was >> the scuffing sound is the we dog
00:28:36
>> Kanye's trying to dig a hole in the carpet. >> Digging a hole. He doesn't realize we're
00:28:39
in an apartment and this is going to make life super difficult. Um, yeah. So, so, so yeah, Beyond the Darklands was a
00:28:47
And it's interesting like I when we when we started to like when Philly is from
00:28:53
Screen Time first kind of met with me about the show, I sort of had some conditions. I kind of
00:28:59
said, "Well, we're not going to make an episode about about any of these
00:29:03
offenders unless we've got the victim's famil family's permission to do it."
00:29:06
like we would go to them directly and ask them. Um, and we're not going to do
00:29:09
any recreations and we're not going to have blood and stuff like that. And Philly's, you know, a marvelous and
00:29:14
ethical person and was totally on board with that. And so we kind of stuck to that. Like we would always get the
00:29:20
permission of victim's families before we made an episode. And so there was some we just didn't do like Mark Lundy
00:29:25
was going to be the first season, but his family would had got burned by the media and weren't interested. And so I
00:29:30
think >> in season four we kind of went back to them and said, "Okay, so now you see
00:29:34
what we do." And for me, I was making those things for the parole board of a
00:29:38
lot of these guys, so they would have that information in front of them. Uh, and and so second time around, they were
00:29:44
okay with us doing it because they kind of knew how we did things. I mean, it's
00:29:48
people's families and stuff. And so it's not just entertainment. And another of
00:29:52
my conditions was we're never going to sell it as a DVD set in Wickles, like it
00:29:55
won't be for sale because >> that's just too crass or insensitive.
00:29:59
>> It's crass. It's like if my kid had been murdered and then it's this thing gets
00:30:03
made and they're selling it. We're cool, you know, it's just that just seemed
00:30:07
wrong. So, um yeah, to the to Philly's Phillyy's great. Um and just all that
00:30:13
stuff was fine. >> Yeah. Do do you still follow Bleeck stuff now? Like at the time we're
00:30:17
recording this, the jury's out on the uh >> Hulking Horn trial. >> Oh, yeah.
00:30:22
>> You follow that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, we we we follow that. Um um so Natalie, my partner, she's that
00:30:28
also she's done a lot of adult mental health stuff and has worked in um did did some time in Broadmore in the UK as
00:30:34
well where you know she talked to people who cut people's heads off and bury them
00:30:38
in the backyard and stuff. Um some of that carry on and so yeah know we follow the porn and stuff because it's just
00:30:44
it's interesting. I don't follow the new I try not to follow the news generally
00:30:47
because it's just generally depressing and irritating >> but some of that stuff
00:30:52
it's pretty interesting. M. Is there part of you that that is, you know, thinks, [ __ ] I'd love to do a show
00:30:57
about this or documentary about this? >> No, because like I'm really glad the
00:31:00
Darklands is done because it was >> just because you're making it about
00:31:06
individual people and individual families. There's always that kind of pressure there that you you don't want
00:31:12
to make something that's going to make people feel kind of exploited or that um
00:31:17
kind of isn't okay. So, I was glad to go back from I'm I'm glad we did that
00:31:22
stuff. I think we did some good stuff in there, but it was good that it ended when it did.
00:31:26
>> Yes. So, so in your early years as a a psychologist who like who who were your
00:31:29
clients? >> So, my um I most I did a lot of child and family stuff for most of my career
00:31:36
really. Um and that was because again like I sort of I thought rather than let someone choose you had to get placements
00:31:47
and internships. Rather than let someone choose that for me, I'm going to go and
00:31:49
find my own. Um, and so I very cynically joined victim support before I applied for the diploma. So I had some stuff
00:31:57
under my belt. Um, as part of that, a guy came along um, from a stopping violence program and talked about this
00:32:04
10e program. And so when I got into the diploma and I was looking for a mast's
00:32:08
project, I went to see him, but he was on the phone and the guy that ran the sex offend the treatment program wasn't.
00:32:14
And we started chatting and even though this one was 10 weeks, this one was like
00:32:19
two years long. um I it just sounded far more interesting and so I immediately kind of peeled off into that and then
00:32:26
through that met a lot of really clever people and ended up um working in the child and family area because it's just
00:32:33
interesting and >> um teenagers are great like if adults are super polite but teenagers tell you
00:32:40
to go [ __ ] yourself like you walk in I once walked into this girl I once walked
00:32:46
into I was to assess this girl she was like 11 and she had 12 or something and she tried to take like an old lady and
00:32:52
her car. So, she wanted the set of those two things. And I walked into the room and she looked at me and she said,
00:32:58
"Fuck, man. I'm not [ __ ] talking to you. You're the [ __ ] ugliest man in
00:33:01
the whole [ __ ] world." And I liked her straight away. Like, I thought you are like a great deal. And
00:33:10
then, so I just said to her, you know what's interesting? I used to be a stunningly handsome man, but it wasn't
00:33:15
working. So, went to made a moan as a plastic surgeon. And I said, "Can you
00:33:18
[ __ ] me up just a little bit?" Which she did. And she laughed, which made her
00:33:22
really annoyed. And then we just did that for the rest of the time. And I like I like kids like that. Like I like
00:33:26
working with kind of families and kids where they're just super upfront in the
00:33:30
Tony stuff. And also there's just such a ton of hope because, you know, they're
00:33:33
just kids. >> Were you were you um were you polarizing? Like did did some of your
00:33:38
peers sort of frown upon you? Like um >> Yeah. I think >> cuz you're quite unorthodox. E
00:33:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I've I've had a tenuous relationship with my professional body. Um because I think
00:33:50
psych I think there's lots of really great psychologist doing amazing stuff,
00:33:53
but I think we're way too careful as a profession. And I think that we're a bit
00:33:57
we sort of we turn on ourselves a little bit too much. Um, and so, you know, I there were I I yeah, I know
00:34:05
there was psychologists that didn't think that what I was doing was a good thing, but
00:34:11
my my thing is always um if you're doing something and you don't and you feel like you can't or shouldn't
00:34:18
talk about it to other professionals, then it's wrong. And so, I've always
00:34:21
been really open about kind of the stuff I did. And and also, I was always working in teams of people. So, it was
00:34:26
never just me doing stuff. You're working in this collaborative team. We all make decisions together. Um, but
00:34:30
yeah, like I know there are some psychologists that don't I don't give a I don't care. I literally
00:34:36
don't give a [ __ ] >> I get the feeling you don't. No, cuz that TED talk I was talking about that's
00:34:40
on YouTube. Yeah, you tell a story in there about a kid that's um >> doing um play therapy or sand therapy,
00:34:44
whatever it's called. >> And you you basically um uh get through to him by teaching him how to trick the
00:34:50
psychologist. >> Yeah. >> Um I was thinking, yeah, a lot of your peers must would be like, "Oh, that's
00:34:54
not the correct way to do it." But it's effective. >> It is. And a lot of them would. But
00:34:57
there are lots of really good psychologists doing really good work. I just think they're we're too worried
00:35:02
about what other psychologists will think of the stuff that we do. And so there's lots of people doing really
00:35:06
creative and good stuff. I mean, my thing was always I don't like my obligation is not your sensibilities. My
00:35:12
obligation is here's this kid in the room >> and my job is to find out what's going
00:35:15
on. And so I'll do whatever I need to do within the realms of what's, you know,
00:35:19
ethical and responsible um to help this kid to talk about stuff. And I don't
00:35:24
care if some up top I I once offered to do a talk at the site conference and I was going to call it um why we need to
00:35:30
pucker less and fart more. But they they they said they wouldn't let me do it
00:35:36
unless I change the title. I said well I'm not changing the title so I didn't
00:35:38
do it. But I do think it's that it's like we don't everyone's just far too
00:35:43
freaking careful and worried about stuff, you know? Everyone's worried about getting cancelled.
00:35:47
>> From what I can see, cancel just means people say mean [ __ ] about you on the
00:35:50
internet. Well, who gives a [ __ ] like you know it's like cancel me I'm fine
00:35:55
with that. Um it just mean you go oh typity type. >> It's so true. So so um from kids you
00:36:02
move on to um like like just just the worst of the worst like violent offenders, sex offenders, murderers. Um
00:36:10
when when you're working with terrible people like that, like what sort of impact does it have on your mental
00:36:14
health? Like how do you switch off outside of work? >> The odd thing is most of them weren't
00:36:18
terrible people. Like your job when you're doing that stuff is you have to you can't you have to find a way to
00:36:24
connect and build a relationship with this other person because you're saying
00:36:26
to this other human being, hey, don't do those bad things anymore. Like try these
00:36:30
other things instead. No one is going to listen to that or think about that if you if you're an [ __ ] or if you're
00:36:37
angry at them or you're hering them or making them feel bad, you got to find a
00:36:40
way to connect with the actual kind of person inside of all of that. And so there's their behaviors and then there's
00:36:46
the person. There are very I can't think of a single offender that I work with
00:36:51
that I didn't find something to like about because they're just they're just
00:36:54
people and >> we kind of have this idea that they're vastly different to us.
00:36:59
>> No, they're not. They're us. They're just us. You know, it's just some of
00:37:02
most of us are lucky and that our sexual fantasies aren't about things that are
00:37:06
illegal or if they are about things are illegal, we don't actually do them. Um
00:37:09
some people uh get caught up in all kinds of things. And you know, our prisons aren't full of people who are
00:37:16
innately bad. They're full of people who have alcohol and drug habits, who grew
00:37:19
up in poverty, who didn't get kind of enough education, who grew up in trauma
00:37:23
and all that kind of stuff. And all the, you know, people go, "Oh, it's all woke
00:37:27
apologist nonsense." It's like bollocks. You go into these places and sit down
00:37:30
with someone, ask them about their life story, and then tell me that you think that they're just innately a bad person.
00:37:37
If you grow up being beaten and abused and hungry and cold and scared, you're
00:37:43
not going to think the world's a lovely place and I should be nice to other people. you're going to think the world
00:37:47
doesn't give a [ __ ] about me, so why should I give a [ __ ] about other people?
00:37:49
So, you have to find stuff to kind of connect and like about those people. And and it's a it's a really good life skill
00:37:56
because um not many of us have to do that. We often, you know, we we meet a whole bunch of people and you don't
00:38:02
always have to find things to like, but it always works better if you do. >> Sure. You're a good bastard, aren't you?
00:38:09
Like I mean you could you could eas you could you know no you are because you could I I got some friends that are like
00:38:14
ex cops and they a lot of them ended up like quite cynical like have an ability to see the worst in almost everyone but
00:38:21
it seems like you can you you've got this ability to I don't know maybe it's
00:38:25
a compassion streak or something >> to see that there is a little bit of good in everyone.
00:38:29
>> Well I think I'm just fundamentally I'm a pragmatist and so I I want to do
00:38:33
whatever works. I'm fundamentally kind of lazy and a pragmatist and so I don't
00:38:38
want to have to do [ __ ] if there's no point in doing it. Like I want the fastest result to something happening.
00:38:43
Um and it is through this thing. I totally get why cops get like that. Like I think if I'd spent my career in the
00:38:48
police, I'm pretty sure I would have been like that too because their job is
00:38:52
to basically catch people and lock them up. Like they're not doing therapy. Their job isn't to connect. Although,
00:38:59
you know, you read people like um uh Chuck Hemwood's book that's just this is
00:39:04
>> Oh, yeah. And masking monsters >> and like one of the Chuck Hemwood's a
00:39:08
really smart guy. Um and it's a fantastic book. Like if you want a really good book to show you what
00:39:15
criminal profiling is like in the real world, it's like you not I read the whole thing in like one go. It was
00:39:21
fantastic. I I had him um he was in that chair a couple of months ago and he he he sort of echoed what you were saying
00:39:27
about there's a bit of good in everyone but he said the the exception to that
00:39:30
rule in his experience was Malcolm >> Raya. Yeah. Yeah. Some people you look
00:39:34
at them and for whatever reason there's just cold dead ice and >> and you know you can come up with
00:39:41
whatever theories you want from that but it's the smart thing is to take people
00:39:45
like that just put them in a place where they can't get out and be with other
00:39:47
people because if they are they'll hurt them. Um, so I absolutely think there
00:39:51
are people like that. Um, but and but but you know, even people like Chuck, one of the things I like about his book
00:39:56
and he he did have compassion and he did have that ability to kind of reach out and deal with people. And you look at
00:40:02
the best cops, the best cops aren't macho, arrogant, pushing people around. They're like calming everything down,
00:40:07
treating people with respect. D gets you a long way. >> Yeah, it's great. Yeah. There's a quote
00:40:13
from Michelle Obama that I I love. I use it all the time. Um, I've learned it's
00:40:17
harder to hate up close. Sounds like you'd agree with that. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like every time, this
00:40:22
is the thing about the internet, right? Everyone goes and I don't I don't know why anyone goes
00:40:28
on Facebook to engage in a conversation cuz it's like I think this politically,
00:40:33
oh, you're a dick. No, you're a dick. You're a dick. And it just goes
00:40:36
backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards. Um, no one ever changes their
00:40:39
mind on the internet about any of that kind of stuff. But when you get two people together, they do. We did this. I
00:40:45
don't think we ever it was for a show but we didn't put this bit in. We got
00:40:49
people from the furthest ends of the political continuum we could get and we interviewed them first about their views
00:40:55
about other people in the world and stuff and then we um brought them together to make a pizza like it was
00:41:01
just schmaltzy tally stuff. But I remember this one guy like he was on the D for three years and then this other
00:41:06
person was really high up in the ACT party and they both talked about unemployed people da d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:10
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d
00:41:11
d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d and then we brought them together to make a pizza
00:41:14
and we did so you you think this about them and you think this about them why don't you have a chat about that and you
00:41:18
can't be it's just much harder to be mean to people in the same room and so
00:41:22
what happens is we discover that actually >> people do have far more in common than
00:41:27
than not it's like >> we spent uh 10 days in parliament a couple of years ago doing a docker about
00:41:33
basically what a politicians do all day. Um, you know, they work really hard and
00:41:38
and we sat in select committees and it's boring. It never makes a tally, but it
00:41:42
was all of them working together to try to do sensible things. So, I think, you know, most most people
00:41:50
their intentions are good. It doesn't mean that the stuff they do is always good, but their intentions are usually
00:41:56
good. >> Yes. Speaking of um yeah, like internet trolls and stuff. Yeah. You you used to
00:42:01
be active on Twitter and then you you you >> stopped. So you stopped. Why? Why did
00:42:06
you What was the >> I suddenly realized I'd never go on Twitter and feel anything but angry, you
00:42:10
know, and it's like >> And what was it debating with strangers, people that you
00:42:14
>> Oh, yeah. And I got into this weird thing with Simon Bridges. >> Oh, yeah. What was that? There was some
00:42:18
beef there, eh? >> It was a weird thing. >> He he called you a lefty or something or
00:42:22
>> Yeah. Well, he he said, "Oh, you know, the government's done nothing about
00:42:25
housing." And I just tweeted him back cuz people do. I said, "Well, dude, like
00:42:29
you had nine years. You, you know, they didn't just, it wasn't perfect." Um, and
00:42:33
then he came back with something and I came back with something and that went on for like two days. And then, um, then
00:42:38
Natalie said, "What are you, what are you doing?" I mean, what do you mean?
00:42:41
She said, "You're just angry guy on Twitter with Simon Bridges." And I said,
00:42:45
"Oh, yeah. Like, what the how did that happen?" So I just I did I did used to
00:42:50
do a thing though where because I quite liked I quite like when people kind of troll you a little bit and um there was
00:42:56
this one dude who you know why is Nigel later such a big star and so I was staying in Deneden at my mom's place and
00:43:02
I remember I spent 45 minutes trying to explain how a star is formed in 160 characters I said you know swirling dust
00:43:11
circles gravity and then the whole thing ignites and that's how it becomes a star
00:43:14
and he went back a dick and and then I I was just going back being relentlessly good human and nice to him and
00:43:21
eventually he just thought, "Can you just stop now? Can you just leave me alone? I'm sorry. Was my good humor
00:43:27
getting in the way of you all trolling?" And then again at my mom's place I made
00:43:32
up an account called Nigel trolling Nigel where um I think I only did it once but I trolled myself uh and you're
00:43:38
a dick. Oh no. And then because then I could win the argument so I but it was too hard to log out and log back in. So,
00:43:46
I gave that up. >> Oh my god, that seems so time inensive. Um, when when did you become a big star?
00:43:53
When was the moment that you thought, "Oh, I'm I'm um I'm kind of famous now."
00:43:57
>> Well, >> was it was it did it start with a book deal or was it a TV show? No, it was
00:44:02
it's I was kind of um it probably after I think the parenting show was probably
00:44:07
when the the poling that when we got some quite big audiences for back in the day for that um
00:44:15
>> and it was just it was a very strange thing because I'm from Omaroo and so I
00:44:19
didn't I I I didn't know anyone in the media or tally or anything like that. So
00:44:24
that whole world is pretty weird and it just it just kind of gradually happens and then it's like you suddenly it's
00:44:31
like oh like I'm part of this kind of world of people but you know to be fair
00:44:36
it's TV in New Zealand right and I remember going to it was some TV awards thing before I stopped going cuz I
00:44:43
missed the good ones back in the 90s they were awesome apart from all the accounts was fighting and drugs and
00:44:48
scandals now it's just everyone being nice to each other um but there were all
00:44:52
these sort of tally people um some of the networking people were sort of getting their photos in front of the
00:44:57
thing and sort of and I just remember thinking settle down like if you're on
00:45:03
telly and and people know you in New Zealand it's like being in a community newspaper in Sydney you know what I mean
00:45:09
like it's not like >> you're not >> you're big fish in a very small pond
00:45:12
>> yeah you are and it's like and it's not taking anything away from it but it's
00:45:15
like it's that part of the whole thing is meaningless and frivolous and silly
00:45:20
what it does though um is that it gets you access to people and it gives you more influence. And so for a time when I
00:45:28
was doing telly stuff and clinical stuff, it worked really well because a social worker could say the same thing
00:45:33
to family for ages and then they just wouldn't listen. They go, "Do you want
00:45:36
to see that guy from the telly?" He'd come and see. Oh yeah. So I would come
00:45:40
and see them, say the same things as a social worker and they would just start to listen and do those things and it's
00:45:44
just because of the >> star power. >> Yeah. It's just because of the thing.
00:45:47
Oh, he's on the telly. He must know what he's talking about. >> That's awesome. Um but like speak of
00:45:52
those TV awards, it must be like gratifying um you knowing that you're there because you've done some done some
00:45:57
like good work that adds value to people life people's life rather than just
00:46:00
sitting there reading an auto quue with the day's current affairs on. >> Yeah. I I well what I liked about doco
00:46:06
making is it's kind of like um you get to work with a team of people and um I
00:46:12
always work with like just great people and like some of the best years in telly
00:46:17
that I had um it was a couple of years where it was just you know my friend Mitchell um and and Beon and Gabe and we
00:46:24
the four of us would just tood around the place making telly and then you meet all you know all these talented guys do
00:46:31
all these people who are really super talented um and you and you get to go around and do that. And what I like is I
00:46:38
I do like that collaborative process. And I've never liked the idea of anyone
00:46:43
being special in any way. And so I never bought into that you're the presenter so
00:46:47
you get the best stuff. I think that's [ __ ] I think if you're the presenter, you know the least amount and
00:46:52
you've got the least amount of expertise of anyone here. DPS, soundies, directors, you know, they all have to
00:46:59
know and do a whole bunch of stuff. I just have to make words come in. I'm a
00:47:04
face. Like that's literally all I have to do. And so so we we always had teams
00:47:08
where we we like everyone would weigh in on ideas and no idea was sacred and we started from the position that you know
00:47:16
the blank page you fill the blank page with something ugly and stupid and then we're all just going to kick it and kick
00:47:20
it and kick it until it becomes kind of better. And I really I like I like that process. So the my first job always when
00:47:26
I'm working with new people is just to convince them I don't do any of that
00:47:29
presenter stuff like please don't do that. Gabe though was an ask. I worked with Gabe and Gab's a Gabe would what he
00:47:37
would do cuz he knew that I hated that and so if if we were with someone if we were I'd be doing this right the chat
00:47:44
before the interview and Gabe would come to mic me up with my little microphone.
00:47:48
What he would do is he would kneel down in front of me and keep his eyes down like that. Say, "Excuse me, Mr. L. I
00:47:52
know you don't like me interrupting when you're talking to people. Um, I do
00:47:55
apologize for that, but would it be all right if I was to mic you up and I know I don't want to make you cross your
00:48:00
Gabe, don't freaking do that cuz they don't." And once we were filming in a
00:48:03
park, um, and it had been raining, so we had an easy up on the center of the park
00:48:07
and we'd r for the day and all these houses around so kids were watching us cuz it was nice and stuff out there. And
00:48:12
um, I was walking out to the car thinking, "Oh, that's weird." Like, why
00:48:15
is it not raining on me? And it is raining on us. Gabe was following me through the park with an umbrella over
00:48:20
me. Him in the pouring rain, making me look like a total wanker. >> Oh my god, that's amazing. That's like
00:48:30
peak celebrity status having an umbrella holder. >> Um, okay. So, uh, I god, I don't even
00:48:36
know if you won any TV awards or not, but I'm assuming you would have. No. >> No. No. I I laughed every time. Um Jer
00:48:43
um um um Jeremy um um >> Wells um >> Corbett >> Corbett Corbett brain chemo brain.
00:48:51
>> Is that is that a thing? >> Yeah, it really is a thing. Like I'm
00:48:54
just like half the time I can't remember anything at all at the moment. Um but uh
00:48:59
yeah, I've been at a couple and so one one of these is Jeremy Corbett. Jeremy Corbett won. So I thought right,
00:49:07
you're my nemesis from now on. Um, and it's a nice nemesis. A comedian is a
00:49:12
nemesis. Quite that's a good nemesis to have. Um, and then there was one a couple of years ago, I think, where I
00:49:17
went. And, um, for some reason I was in the same category as Sam Neil. And Sam Neil was about five people back in the
00:49:25
line to kind of get in. And I thought, I'll just be friendly. I'll just go up
00:49:28
and, you know, and so I went up to Sam Neil and I thought he's in the same category. Surely he must. And I said,
00:49:35
"Look, mate, if I get up there and I win, I'm going to [ __ ] talk you. I'm
00:49:39
going to [ __ ] talk your work. I'm gonna [ __ ] talk your show. I'm just warning
00:49:41
you." And he sort of looked at me and he went, "Sorry, who are you?"
00:49:48
>> Oh my god. >> Weird. Like, okay, I'm just going to >> Wow. Oh, what an amazing story. Amazing
00:49:55
story. Um, I mean, okay, so no TV awards, but the Queen's birthday honor us. Is it was that special? That must
00:50:01
have been gratifying, humbling. >> Yeah, it was. It's also it's very
00:50:03
strange to get things like that. Um, >> what what have you got? An O >> an O N ZN.
00:50:07
>> What does that mean? >> An officer of the New Zealand >> Order of Merit.
00:50:13
>> I think that's what it means. Um, yeah, like it was it was uh it was it was
00:50:18
strange. It was nice cuz I got to go to government. I mean, the nice thing about
00:50:22
it is I got to go to government house with my mom >> uh and uh you know, with my kids because
00:50:26
they were a lot younger then. Uh, and so that was all kind of nice and um, you know, met the governor general and the
00:50:32
carpets. Have you ever been to government house? Carpets are awesome. Are >> they? Why?
00:50:37
>> Everyone was going, "Man, these carpets are awesome." >> You just wanted to take your shoes off
00:50:41
and just run around your socks. Like they were these really soft, deep carpets. That's the thing I remember the
00:50:45
most. Where do you get your carpets from? These are great. >> But that's Did you take your shoes off?
00:50:51
No. >> No, I didn't. >> Um, yes. So um so so you recently got married eh so your wife um Natalie
00:50:59
Flynn. >> Yeah. Six six well about seven months ago. So our anniversary is November.
00:51:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. So second marriage your first one was really long like almost 30
00:51:07
years. >> Yeah. Almost 29 years. Yeah. >> How how's that? Is that a are you guys
00:51:12
on okay terms? >> Uh it was a complicated separation. Let's just say that.
00:51:16
>> Okay. Uh, so mine my hope of how that played out wasn't how it played out,
00:51:24
which is, you know, that's just how things are. But, um, yeah, now I'm with
00:51:29
uh this uh amazing person and um like just super happy. I think I kind of said it on the video, but I think it's true.
00:51:36
is like I think if if you're really lucky in life, you meet like your person and like
00:51:42
there's just and you have the sense that all of the people in the world like
00:51:45
you're the person and so she kind of is that for me. And so >> it's been um that's been it's been
00:51:51
really lovely. And >> yeah, there's there's a line in that in that video where you're talking about
00:51:55
Natalie and um I I don't know how many minutes in it was, but um it made me start crying just the line was um I
00:52:03
think she makes me feel safe. >> Yeah, she does. >> Beautiful. beautiful line.
00:52:06
>> She she makes me feel um safe and and particularly over the last four months, it's been like it's really
00:52:15
nice to have someone that you can lean on like that. And you know, and she is um like she comes from a family of super
00:52:22
smart people. Her her her father was Jim Flynn who was this worldrenowned economist. Her brother's a Oxford math
00:52:29
professor. Um basically in that house I'm like a chimpanzeee. like there's
00:52:33
everyone else in the house and then there's the chimpanzeee and then I I can
00:52:36
fix laptops and plug things in, but that's pretty much it. Um uh but yeah, but she's she's what I really love about
00:52:44
her is that she doesn't judge and she's absolutely kind of fearless. Like most
00:52:49
people are a bit judgy about some things, but she's a bit like me. She's
00:52:52
worked with um all kinds of people in all kinds of places and so just doesn't
00:52:57
do that. and she's like compassionate to the point that you feel it saying no you
00:53:03
don't have like she was really worried about Ray Gun after the Olympics about
00:53:06
how she was doing you know which is but like really worried about it um and I keep saying we got enough to
00:53:13
worry about I'm sure Ray gun will be fine um but no it's it's it's it is
00:53:18
really lovely having kind of found something like that so now that's the motivation for me it's like I there's
00:53:25
nothing I want to do or know where they want to go. I just kind of want to be >> with her and we want to get old and we
00:53:33
go to an old age home and complain about the people around us. That's >> Oh, those Ryman homes look so good,
00:53:39
don't they? >> I know. >> Looks like a contie for senior citizens.
00:53:42
>> I know. I know. I know. >> Um, how did how did you guys make you you working on an app? The parent land
00:53:47
app. >> Yeah. So, we we'd known each other for a while. Um, >> through work.
00:53:51
>> Yeah. And so I'd uh I we kind of I initially met her because she wrote this
00:53:56
book called Smart Mothering um which is a really evidence-based look at the about babies and what they need. She
00:54:03
loves babies. Loves the babies. Like we when we walk past someone with a baby, I
00:54:08
have to hold her hand really tight because say it's not your baby. You can't. And once we were at Wellington
00:54:12
airport and there was this mom had these two little twin babies on a rack and Natalie was going up and chatting to her
00:54:17
and I could see the mom was getting a little bit anxious cuz she you see Natalie thinking I'm going to take one
00:54:21
of them and maybe the closest one. So I get that one. >> Um yeah. So we we sort of um I'd met
00:54:30
because her publisher asked me to read the book cuz I hadn't met her before then and so I did. I thought it was an
00:54:36
amazing book full of really good stuff. Um, and uh, then we met and I thought, "Oh, you're like real smart and funny.
00:54:42
Uh, um, I need to get you working on the app." And so that's kind of how we
00:54:46
initially uh, met. >> What's it like when two psychologists have an argument?
00:54:51
>> Well, we don't actually argue. No. >> No. Like we most of the time we don't.
00:54:55
Um, but if we do, it's like other people. We just use words and say things sometimes that, you know, you don't
00:55:01
necessarily mean, but we don't um, we don't kind of have arguments. Well, like
00:55:06
we sometimes we have this stuff that happens and we talk about it, but it's not like uh I can't imagine having an
00:55:12
argument. >> Yeah. Okay. Like a robust discussion, right? >> Yeah. It's like
00:55:16
>> Yeah. >> I validate your feelings. >> Yeah. Well, neither of us if any if if
00:55:22
any one of us said that the other one I think we'd have them just taken away and
00:55:26
seen to >> um Yeah. In that that video on Instagram, you um you mentioned that
00:55:30
you've been through some trauma. Um, you say this is the biggest biggest trauma,
00:55:35
but there has been others. Anything you want to share or >> Oh, it was the stuff I talked about in
00:55:39
the tent talk like when I was, you know, 14-year-old doing CPR on a dead guy. That was pretty grim.
00:55:43
>> Yeah. What were the circumstances for that? Like an elderly an old elderly guy
00:55:46
with fake false teeth. >> Yeah. So, I was a little St. John Cadet back in Omaru and um Oh, another thing
00:55:53
you get I get anyway chemo runny nose. There you are. A little bit of information there. Um, uh, yeah, I was a
00:56:00
little St. John Cadet and I was at this BK's place who was an ambulance officer
00:56:04
in Omaru and he got this call and it was just around the corner. So I kind of went and um ended up doing CPR on the
00:56:11
dead guy and it turns out um it's not like the resistation dummy where it's
00:56:15
all clean and rubbery. It's just it's rubbery and if you make the beginner's
00:56:21
mistake which I did of taking out the false teeth, mouth loses all structure. It's just this big sort of blubbery
00:56:26
vomit covered hole. Um, and you're blowing and it's wheezing and gurgling
00:56:30
and all that kind of. So, so, so I so I had um I had definitely had some sort of
00:56:36
stuff from that. But one of the things look people talk about post-traumatic stress disorder which we all know about
00:56:40
which is kind of that's the bad side of trauma, but you can have post-traumatic
00:56:43
growth like for most people for the majority of people you go through something traumatic um and you get
00:56:50
stronger as a result of it. And so for me that was super useful because that was my yard stick about is this bad?
00:56:55
It's like, well, it's an old dead guy vomiting your mouth. That's worse than
00:56:59
this, you know? So, most things actually seemed easy in comparison. And the other things are just weird
00:57:05
things. Like, I remember um when we did the did the Beyond the Darklands thing, I part of it is you sometimes see some
00:57:14
of the evidence books and things. And when we were doing the Michael Choy episode, um who was killed by all those
00:57:20
kids, Bailey, BJ Kuricki, and a bunch of other kids. >> Yeah. Michael Choy, pizza delivery guy.
00:57:25
Yeah. Um I remember this I still remember this photo in the evidence book of this in the kitchen and it was just a
00:57:32
rubbish bin with a pizza box and some drink bottles in it and that was the stuff they taken from the go and I just
00:57:36
remember sitting there looking at it thinking like they killed him for basically pizza and freaking change. And
00:57:43
so that that kind of image has always stayed with me. And some of the conversations that you I had with family
00:57:51
about what it was like for them losing people that that that that kind of stuff too. But mostly what happens is um
00:58:01
you have to decide early on you have to be able to kind of put that stuff down and if you can't then you can't do that.
00:58:07
And so, you know, I'm really good at being when I'm in something, I can be in
00:58:11
it and I can just put it down and and and go home. H >> how can how can any one of us um be you
00:58:19
more resilient? Like there's a great joke at the beginning of that video where you talk about trigger warnings.
00:58:23
So, >> something that only bomb disposal. >> It's it's a great but if it does feel
00:58:29
like everything has a a trigger warning now. >> It's like when did we all become so
00:58:33
fragile and useless that we can't talk about things? I was at a stopping violence conference, right? It's a it's
00:58:39
a family violence conference about family violence. And one of the people got up and said, "Just a trigger
00:58:47
warning. I'm going to talk about violence and uh that may be triggering for people and upsetting." And I'm
00:58:53
sitting there thinking, "It's a [ __ ] family violence conference." Like I got
00:58:58
up in mine. I said, "I'm not giving you a trigger warning. If you are at this
00:59:02
conference and you're triggered by the fact that we're talking about family
00:59:05
violence, you're either stupid because you hadn't worked out that's what family
00:59:09
violence is or you're messed up and you need to go and talk to someone. Like
00:59:13
that's how mad the world has got. I don't give trigger warnings for anything
00:59:17
because I have the belief that we can talk about things and actually sometimes you get upset and that's that's okay. So
00:59:23
part of it I think is not buying into all of that nonsense. Um, but I think a large part of resilience is I I think
00:59:29
there are some really simple ideas. It's about, you know, it is about being intentional and driving the bus. Like we
00:59:34
all get to choose our response. And so things happen to us and they can be upsetting and traumatic and bad. But
00:59:40
even in the depths of that, you still get to choose how you respond to those things. And that's not just some wery
00:59:47
sort of idea. People like Victor Frankle, the Jewish psychiatrist who survived four camps during the war. He
00:59:53
talked about the last fundamental human freedom is to choose a response in any given situation. You get to choose that.
00:59:58
Um then it's about, you know, the old stoic idea about for me anyway, my single biggest stress management goto is
01:00:07
just focus on the things that you can control. It's a really simple idea, but
01:00:12
it really works. And so I could get lost in all of the cancer stuff, but I can't
01:00:17
control any of that. Um, what I can control is am I sleeping? What stuff am I eating? Do I meditate? Am I doing a
01:00:24
little bit of exercise? Like where is my mind at? These are these are things that
01:00:28
I can control. And so it's easy to become swamped with things. But if you think, okay, what can I control right
01:00:33
now? Maybe all you can control is how you're sitting and how you're breathing.
01:00:37
um that day outside of the standing outside of the um surgeon's office when I just felt completely
01:00:45
lost, I thought, okay, well, I can make a decision. Like that's something I can make a decision about
01:00:52
where I'm going to go to now. Um and then for me, the last thing is like it's always about team. It's about
01:00:59
building up the people around you. It's about seeing that your job is to make
01:01:03
the peoples around your you that to make their lives kind of better in some way.
01:01:08
And and it's that idea of kind of building people up um >> is the stuff that's useful because
01:01:15
that's when you need people like we've got a really great group of friends um
01:01:19
and they've been super kind and super helpful. And so it's the team around you
01:01:24
that that matters. So I I think there are some simple things that people can do. Um and it doesn't make it any
01:01:30
easier. Like things are things are hard. There's no magical if you do these three
01:01:35
amazing things everything will be easy and simple because it won't. >> Um
01:01:39
>> it's just that uh it can be harder. It can be or it can be less hard. And so
01:01:45
doing some of those things I think makes it easy to kind of chug through. >> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. So
01:01:49
many good takeaways there. And by the way, um, Frankle, who you mentioned, um, yeah, Man's Search for Man is one of my
01:01:55
one of my favorite books of all time. >> I keep buying a copy and then I'll give
01:01:58
it to someone else and have to replace it. Yeah, it's fantastic. Brilliant. >> Um, so you want to talk about the cancer
01:02:04
for a bit? >> Yeah. >> So, you feel like it's it's been a running thread through this. So, um,
01:02:09
yeah. So, you you're feeling unwell for how long? >> Like a sore throat, right?
01:02:13
>> No. So, about four four about four or five weeks, maybe maybe six weeks, maybe
01:02:18
a bit more. I would eat eat stuff and feel full really quickly and almost sort of get like a painful sort of pushy
01:02:25
feeling at the back of my throat. I at the time and I started to lose a bit of weight now at the time I thought ah it's
01:02:30
a peptic ulcer. Um so I thought I was on a peptic ulcer diet and I this is great
01:02:34
cuz I lost about 6 kgs and think this is awesome like I want to get this fixed but I'm just going to wait till a little
01:02:41
bit more. >> I'm almost at the goal weight. >> It's like it's my new fat diet. It's
01:02:47
like it turns out I was on a gastro cancer diet which is not as good as the peptic diet by a long shot. I thought I
01:02:53
can't really pass it. If you want to lose weight and eat lots of chocolate and drink fizzy drinks, go on a gastric
01:02:59
cancer diet. You may die, but you're definitely going to lose weight. Um >> so so I I those kind of symptoms and um
01:03:07
I've got so I did kind of think my tendency is to put most things off but I just thought this feels like something.
01:03:15
So I went to my GP who's a great GP sent me to the gastro person and then off off
01:03:18
it rolled from there >> and then um went to So yeah. So you have the night in the hotel you phone who who
01:03:26
did you phone by the way? Who did you phone that night? >> Um oh I can this is one thing I wanted
01:03:29
to say the one of the first people that I phoned was our insurance guy. One of the things I've learned from this is
01:03:36
that and I'm telling this to everyone and I'm really glad I remembered this.
01:03:39
Um, insurance, insurance, insurance. And I know that for a lot of people, insurance
01:03:45
is a luxury and they can't get it. But for some people, you could get it, but
01:03:49
they don't. You need life insurance, and you need to look at how your life insurance is structured because there's
01:03:54
money you get when you die, but also you can get payments for if you're permanently disabled or if you get a
01:04:00
terrible diagnosis. Um, you need health insurance, uh, and you need income protection. the health insurance stuff
01:04:08
that the there's there's no place I think in our health system where that
01:04:12
inequity is more clear than in oncology because the difference between living and dying in oncology is money and if
01:04:19
you have money then you can get the drugs that a lot of people can't get and
01:04:24
>> Oh it gives you the options. >> Yeah. Yeah. And now the one thing I wish
01:04:27
I'd done differently is that uh in my health I have health insurance which has
01:04:31
been just a godsend. Um, but what I didn't do is take the extra cancer cover
01:04:37
because you don't cuz most people don't know anything about oncology. They don't
01:04:41
think about the fact that one in three people are going to get cancer. They don't know uh which drugs are funded and
01:04:46
nonfunded. It's only after you get it you go. So, I wish I'd ticked the extra
01:04:52
cancer cover up to 300,000 box. If I'd ticked that, that would have been great.
01:04:57
>> Is there a box below that for turbo cancer? >> Not yet. >> There will be soon though. Um yeah what
01:05:04
so you get the diagnosis then when when does the chemo start? Is it like the same week? Is it
01:05:08
>> well this is again where health insurance is such a it just shows the difference basically within 10 days of
01:05:14
being diagnosed I was doing chemo and so they put a little thing in called a portoath um which is like a little a
01:05:21
little a little device in here >> like a little tap. >> Yeah. It's just under the skin and uh so
01:05:26
they can inject the drug straight into your kind of heart and you don't have to
01:05:30
worry about veins and stuff like that. Um I got that done. I had scans. I got that done. Uh and within 10 days I was
01:05:36
sitting there as they were pumping all the stuff in going, "Oh, yep. This is an
01:05:40
unexpected event." >> Were you um like [ __ ] how were you pre chemotherapy? Were you [ __ ]
01:05:45
bricks? Just the fear of the unknown or >> really the thing that I was having panic
01:05:49
attacks about was the this was the porterath. I don't know why but this thing really freaked me out. And so when
01:05:54
we kind of got on there on the day um and the guy was talking about said look usually I'm pretty good about this stuff
01:06:00
but I'm losing my [ __ ] Can you give me as much mazzelam and fentinel as you can
01:06:04
as quickly as you can and that stuff is freaking awesome. If I was a billionaire
01:06:09
I would have a raging addiction but I would pay a really good anesthetist to manage it. I think people like the
01:06:15
people that the celebrities that die from the stuff, they just have shony. Just get it if you're going to get
01:06:19
addicted to these things and I can see why you would cuz they are awesome. Um really
01:06:25
>> wh why like in what way? Just like a nice warm feeling. >> Yeah. It's like you go from being it's
01:06:30
just the best thing. Um you go from being like I was really honestly actually having a panic attack. Like I
01:06:35
don't know why but it just really freaked me out. And so you're like panicking panicking panic panicking and
01:06:40
they put the fender and you go panic. Ah fantasy race. Oh, this is awesome. Hey,
01:06:44
we should do this like every week. You guys are cool. I'm gonna come back here.
01:06:48
I'm gonna take this out at home and go, "Ah, sorry. Fell out again. We need to
01:06:53
do another one." >> Fentinel is Is that what Michael Jackson was taking to sleep?
01:06:57
>> Yeah, it's actually And it's incredibly dangerous. And it was dangerous when
01:07:00
fentinel was kind of entering the market here and kids were starting to use it. Like people don't know how dangerous it
01:07:05
is. Um, but when you're getting these procedures done, they give you the Yeah.
01:07:08
Mazzylam and Fentinel and it is a tiny little cocktail of stuff. M and what's
01:07:13
been the biggest sort of surprises about chemotherapy because I suppose prior to
01:07:16
this all you sort of knew is what you'd seen on your movies and things. >> Yeah. Yeah. I it's it's um I think the f
01:07:24
the first time was really stressful because it's new. And also what they're looking at is do you have
01:07:29
reactions to drugs? So I was thinking just don't have a reaction because I want this drug. I don't want to. Even if
01:07:34
you do though, one of the things I've learned about oncology is that it's this
01:07:37
it's like this big winding path and if it's blocked one way, they can just go
01:07:41
another way. So there's lots of different things that people can do. And the other thing I've learned about
01:07:46
cancer is that everyone's cancer journey is different. Like they just are. And so
01:07:49
one person's story really isn't relevant to any person at all. It's like, you
01:07:54
know, my broken leg, your broken leg, same thing with cancer because it's so
01:07:58
genetic. Genetic stuff is so important now. Um, and the targeting stuff is so important that it's making comparisons
01:08:07
or hearing people's stories or all of those timelines, it's just not relevant.
01:08:12
It's just you and it's the road that you're on. >> Is is there anything you could have done
01:08:17
differently to avoid it? >> No, no, no. I mean, >> it's not lifestyle factors or anything.
01:08:21
>> No, it's just your DNA sometimes just goes all right and then it just goes off
01:08:25
in this crazy path. And so I didn't drink a lot like um one of the things I you know one of the things I it's just
01:08:32
such a bummer man like one of my biggest regrets is that um so I didn't drink for
01:08:36
a long time uh and recently probably in the last couple of years I've discovered
01:08:40
cocktails. I never had cocktails because I would think I'm not paying $22 for
01:08:44
freaking thing called a pelicantail with mango and egg yolk in it. That's ridiculous. What sort of an idiot would
01:08:52
buy that? And then we were out once and I got a cocktail. I went, "This is the
01:08:57
best thing I think that's ever happened to me. Um, this is so nice." And so I
01:09:01
really like cocktails, but I'm just never drinking alcohol ever again. Like it's a group one carcinogen.
01:09:07
>> Um, and it would seem pretty freaking stupid to be to get this, have all these
01:09:12
magical treatments work, and then chuck a carcinogen in on top. So unfortunately
01:09:16
for me, >> cocktails are out the windows. And that's a shame because I think
01:09:20
margaritas are one of the great achievements of the human race. Oh, a spicy margarita with a salty rim.
01:09:26
Unbeatable. >> Well, have you had a coconut margarita? >> No. >> We want a Melbourne. Just amazing. It's
01:09:31
basically it's it's they make it with a a margarita, but you just chuck in some
01:09:35
I think it's coconut cream or something like that. >> Really nice. >> So, so like is is alcohol like a a
01:09:42
cause? So, >> yeah, it's a it's a good one cuz like all this [ __ ] the alcohol industry
01:09:47
gives you about it's you know one or two drinks a day is good for you. No, it's
01:09:51
not. on balance. It's bad for everything. And I'm not saying, you know, you shouldn't drink cuz I used to
01:09:56
and and enjoyed it and all the rest of that stuff, >> but it's like just be aware. It's like
01:10:01
having a cigarette. Like it's a carcinogen. And it's not one drink isn't
01:10:03
going to kill you, but the more you drink, the more you increase the likelihood of these things going wrong.
01:10:09
>> Well, well, I mean, it's a poison, isn't it? >> It it it pretty much is. I remember we
01:10:13
when we did the alcohol documentary, we we interviewed Jeffrey Palmer who was scary to interview
01:10:18
>> cuz you know how you sit down to do an interview and there's always faffing
01:10:20
about as you're fixing stuff. He was like he sat down and she right let's go
01:10:25
like ah >> yeah we could be just going to faff about with the lights a little bit and
01:10:29
Gab's going to do some of these things and >> batteries always need changing on TV.
01:10:34
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but he said that uh one of the biggest regrets of his
01:10:38
political career was liberalizing the alcohol laws. And he said that if you're
01:10:42
trying to bring alcohol into the country now, we wouldn't we wouldn't have it.
01:10:45
And it is kind of weird that we freak out about cannabis and MDMA and mushrooms and all these things. Alcohol
01:10:52
is by far more harmful than any of those things, you know, but for some reason those classes of chemicals go, those are
01:10:58
very bad. >> Yeah. >> It lead to a corruption of society. Uh but alcohol, that's fun. Mhm. So um yes
01:11:05
so so the original oncologist that you saw that tells you 6 months to 12 months surgeon
01:11:10
>> oh surgeon oh yeah on on your insistence so you sort of like pushed >> on the basis of him not actually having
01:11:14
all the information he had he had an initial scan that did look like they'd been spread to kind of liver possibly
01:11:19
spread to livers and lung and things like that. So he had on that on on what he had in front of him
01:11:24
>> um he made the call that we asked him to make >> yeah but it's looking a lot better now.
01:11:29
Did did that in did it annoy you when the the Herald article came out after you did the video and the the headline
01:11:34
seemed very sort of click bay? It said Nigel lettered dead in 6 to 12 months or something. Very dramatic.
01:11:40
>> I know. I had to ring people. I had to ring my kids go. It's that's not
01:11:43
nothing's changed. Nothing has changed. Um so yeah, like that was a bit that was
01:11:47
a bit clickbay. Uh and it's part of the whole why I'm you know I want to kind of
01:11:52
try to manage the narrative more. But I you know I mean it's part of the nature
01:11:56
of it that that happens. Often I feel sorry for the journalist because the journalists don't write the heading. The
01:12:00
journalist will write the article and then some sub editor will come in and put a click bay heading on and often I
01:12:05
think it drives them crazy. >> Oh, it would if if you're a journalist that manages to win someone over and
01:12:10
write a story about them and then they get shhat on by whoever writes the headline.
01:12:14
>> Yeah. >> Um Yes. So how are things looking now? So the tumor the the the treatment's
01:12:18
working. The tumor has shrunk 60%. Which is massive. Is it going to is it going to keep on shrinking? Is that the hope?
01:12:24
>> Yeah. So, so basically in the initial initially I had a lymph node here with
01:12:30
cancer activity in it. I had some lymph nodes between my lungs with cancer activity in it. Lymph nodes around the
01:12:35
stomach with cancer activity in them. Nodules in the paritinium which is currently outlining of the stomach with
01:12:40
cancer activity and the tumor itself. So after uh after um the first kind of three months which is four rounds all
01:12:49
the cancer activity has gone from this lymph node all the activity has gone from here the activity all of the lymph
01:12:55
nodes around the stomach all of that's gone there's only one nodule left now in
01:12:59
the parisium and that's got um that's that's been reduced down to about 45% of
01:13:04
what it was uh and the stomach lining has has the stomach tumor is thinner uh and the activity has gone down by 60% so
01:13:11
it's like >> incredible Oh Molly, I know the the PET scans are like one of the things about
01:13:16
getting these results is it's like it's just tender hooks, you know? You're just
01:13:21
thinking and the first one was really important because the first one showed how I was responding to chemotherapy.
01:13:26
And so it turns out um pretty damn well. Um and I'm just really glad that there
01:13:33
are people sitting in rooms working this stuff out. And I hope they have no work
01:13:37
life balance. I hope they ignore their families and neglect theirelves, their health, and everything else and just
01:13:43
keep working. Um cuz they're doing some amazing stuff. Oncology is changing so
01:13:48
quickly. And this is the thing like every six months that you're you're around, new stuff is coming along. Um so
01:13:55
yeah, like actually doing real well. So now I feel a lot of the time when I'm
01:14:00
feeling sick and I've got another, you know, 11 weeks of that. Um >> it's because of the chemo. And so I do
01:14:04
have to just keep thinking this is good means it's working. This is good. another 11 weeks of that. What What do
01:14:09
you mean? >> So, I've got another um I'm halfway through the the first of the next four
01:14:14
rounds. I've got four four four more rounds to go counting the one I'm in.
01:14:17
And so, sort of by the beginning of November, the um I'll be done with the worst of the chemo stuff. And then it's
01:14:23
just the other thing. So, the imunotherapy and hopefully the Huma, which don't have all the side effects of
01:14:28
chemotherapy. >> Well, you I mean you you know you the man sitting in front of me now, you look
01:14:33
remarkably healthy. >> Yeah. like I feel when I'm not having chemo the really bad chemo side effects
01:14:39
I actually feel much better than I did before. So I don't have the same symptoms that I did before.
01:14:43
>> Um and all that kind of stuff. And that's part of the problem is that now I
01:14:46
just get bored >> because when you get to a few good days I instantly get bored because I'm just
01:14:51
sitting around. >> Um but it's hard to kind of commit to doing anything too much because you know
01:14:56
there are going to be weeks where you don't feel good. >> Um but you know I get to hang out with
01:15:01
Natalie a lot and we see friends a lot and that's kind of nice. It's like I
01:15:04
people come over and you have coffee and chat in the afternoon and that's not
01:15:06
something I did before. Um so there's lots of you know there are lots of good
01:15:10
things about it. We really my hair doesn't grow random but it hasn't fallen
01:15:14
out. >> Hasn't fallen out which is good. I'm pleased about that. Um but it doesn't
01:15:17
grow. Like I had a haircut just the other day and that was the first one of four months and I usually get them in
01:15:22
every every six weeks. So the turbo cancer is definitely >> it's bad for barbers. Barbers are going
01:15:28
man >> terrible for >> what's happening with haircuts? Everyone's got the turbo cancer from the
01:15:32
vaccines and the hair doesn't grow. >> Yeah. Um I had this uh woman on the the
01:15:37
podcast earlier this year called Tracy Hickman who um was very sick with cancer and she chose to um die on a on a
01:15:43
certain date and um everything went exactly as she as she had hoped which is >> just wonderful. Um yeah. Have have you
01:15:51
thought about that? like if you got really sick or unwell, would you? >> I think um what what you don't want to
01:15:56
be is a burden to the people around you, but like basically I'm I I'm not uh No,
01:16:02
I wouldn't do that. Like I'm I'm here and I'm going to stay here and I'm doing
01:16:08
whatever the hell I can no matter how sick it makes me because um you know cuz like it's I want to be every second of
01:16:16
that I can get with Natalie is like that's a win for me. So, I'm I can't
01:16:21
imagine ever getting to the point and it's different for everyone and people
01:16:24
make their own decisions and I think that's all good. Um, it's just not going
01:16:27
to be me. I'm going to be like kicking away, kicking away, kicking away. >> Oh, happy to hear that [ __ ] You love
01:16:33
Natalie, eh? Oh my god. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really do. Like really do. Um, and we had a we got
01:16:39
married. We had this really lovely wedding. Uh, and so it was kind of weird that it was six month almost six months
01:16:44
the day that I sort of I got married that we got this diagnosis. Yeah, I really do. Like it's like um and
01:16:51
we kind of met at just the right time in our lives because if we'd met earlier, I
01:16:56
don't know that it kind of would work out, but like I was kind of quiet, nerdy, and she was like a super, you
01:17:01
know, popular party person. >> It's all about timing, isn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's like it's the right
01:17:05
time. And now we've got these five kids who are all awesome and we we've got,
01:17:10
you know, the plan is to get old and gray together. Well, >> already gray.
01:17:15
>> Just to get older. Um, hey, I put on Instagram that you're coming over and
01:17:19
there's a a bunch of questions here. Um, >> Nigel spoke, again, as I said at the
01:17:24
beginning, most of them were like just people just saying, you know, how much love they've got for you and
01:17:28
>> the value you've brought to their life. Uh, Nigel spoke at my work a few years
01:17:32
ago. One thing that stood out and changed my life was how to allocate time and his detailed exercise in working out
01:17:38
how much of your timeline is spent on must do things like sleeping, eating, cleaning,
01:17:42
>> and then what time is left for the things you want to do. Um, I'd like to
01:17:45
know, has his perspective changed since the cancer diagnosis? >> Yeah. Well, no. Uh, in the sense that I
01:17:51
still believe all of those things. I just believe them and live them a lot more now. Um,
01:17:55
>> and so, um, yeah. Yeah. I I I like time now is I really think about that and I
01:18:03
I'll think about that >> cuz cuz for me like it's not unless some wonder drug comes like it's not curable.
01:18:09
It's going to be manage and maintain it and keep going. Um, and so I really think about how I'm exper I mean the
01:18:16
nice thing about having cancer is you can do whatever the [ __ ] you want. Like I can say I'm tired going for a nap now
01:18:20
and just get up and leave the room or it's like people come over. Can we come
01:18:24
and visit? No. Or should we leave? No, you shouldn't leave. You have to stay because I've got
01:18:30
cancer. I want to talk to people. Um, so so there's that. But I do think like you
01:18:36
know I I when I eventually get back into work, there's just some things I won't
01:18:40
do. So like I a lot of my time before this was I travel a lot. You have to go away the night before and sometimes you
01:18:46
away for a few days. Um we've kind of decided that I'm really not going to do
01:18:50
that very much at all and if I do go away we'll both go away together and go
01:18:52
and hang out in the place and do the thing. And so I do think a lot more about that and and it's it is that idea
01:18:58
that like we don't think about dying. We're all we're all dying. Some of us
01:19:02
are just closer to it than others. And um some of us it'll be by accident. Some
01:19:06
of us some of it be by illness. But um you do really have to think about okay if that happened to me like if and be
01:19:13
lots of people think man I'm glad I'm not him and that's a good thing I'm glad
01:19:17
it's not you too I wouldn't wish this on anyone um but you should think but what
01:19:21
if it was me if it was me >> do I have my legal [ __ ] in order do I have insurance like will my family be
01:19:29
all right what are the protections I've got in place for them um and who am I
01:19:33
spending time with and how am I doing it like so I would do a lot of kind of after dinner speaking Um, and you go
01:19:39
along, you have dinner, do your speech, and stay for the night. Um, now I'm I'm
01:19:42
I'm not going to stay for the night. I'm going to go along. I'm going to do my
01:19:44
thing, and then I'm going to high tell it out there and go home and be with family because that's kind of that's
01:19:48
practicing what I preach. So, yeah, I think about it, but I I really think about it now.
01:19:53
>> Yeah. Someone said, um, are there any, uh, lessons he's learned, um, from the
01:19:58
diagnosis that he wish he realized earlier in life? >> Um, no. No, actually, there haven't
01:20:04
been. really what what's been interesting is, you know, because I do talk a lot about kind of resilience and
01:20:10
all that sort of stuff. Um, but I've never like really been tested and there's something about when a guy
01:20:16
says you'll be dead in maybe in 6 months. No, don't beep at me. That's my
01:20:21
little amp saying take some stuff. No, I've got cancer. I don't have to.
01:20:25
Actually, I do. That doesn't make any sense. >> Yeah. Do you need a break?
01:20:29
>> No, no, no. I'm good. Um, but yeah, so so um and I completed the chemo brain.
01:20:33
What the hell was I saying then? Something. >> Um Oh, like lessons since the diagnosis
01:20:38
that you wish. >> No. So, I haven't I haven't changed anything that I thought, but I've like
01:20:42
I've really had to really kind of double down and focus on how I apply it and see
01:20:47
if those things do actually work. And it turns out when you're facing like some
01:20:50
super big stuff like you could die, um it works. Like it does work. It's the
01:20:55
that's the the thing that's got me through is um >> just having those basic principles that
01:21:00
when I don't know what to do, I fall back on those things. I I feel terrible. What am I going to
01:21:04
do? Do something nice for someone else. I I feel lost and depressed and hopeless. What What can you control
01:21:10
right now? I can't control the future, but I can pat the dog. Okay, let's do
01:21:13
that. >> Yeah, it seems like you're very optimistic now, but there must have been
01:21:17
like a period of there where where you were sort of staring death in the face. Um, any big surprises about confronting
01:21:22
death? >> Um, see, no, I'm not scared of dying >> like at all. Like I don't what I don't
01:21:27
want the thing that frightens me. The thing I don't like thinking about is is
01:21:30
is leaving Natalie alone. But I'm not scared of dying because it's like I'm
01:21:36
not I'm not a deeply kind of spiritual person. Like a little bit of woo woo is
01:21:39
all right. Like I meditate a little bit of woo woo on top of that. That's good.
01:21:42
But um I'm not a deeply spiritual person. So it's like I go to sleep every
01:21:46
night and I sleep for eight hours a night and I don't I wasn't I don't
01:21:49
remember it. I wasn't here for the first, you know, 17 point something billion years of the universe and I'm
01:21:55
not feeling traumatized about that. So I know that actually for me I've got the
01:22:00
easy part. I'm either living and getting better and going on for a long time or
01:22:04
it takes a turn and it goes bad and I die. If that happens it'll be the people
01:22:09
around me that have to carry that because the process of dying itself that doesn't frighten me. The idea of being
01:22:14
dead doesn't frighten me. I don't think I'm going to get up there and you know
01:22:18
someone's going to cast me down. Probably >> the antivaxes will be up there.
01:22:23
>> Do you do you Yeah. What do you think happens when you die? Do you think
01:22:26
there's an afterlife or anything? I'm just a really pragmatic biological
01:22:28
person. No, I think that we're biological beings. We're made of bits of stars from, you know, the big bang 17
01:22:34
billion years ago. And what happens is, you know, you come from it, you go back to that. And so, no, I don't think that
01:22:39
I don't have this idea that there'll be some, you know, it'd be cool if it was,
01:22:43
you know, like if a nice idea. Um, I just don't actually don't actually believe it.
01:22:49
>> Yeah. I'm I'm much the same. It's the Steven Hawking theory. We're like a
01:22:54
computer and you get switched off and that's it >> because it happens every night. Yeah.
01:22:57
Like you go to sleep and you're not thinking ah that was terrible and no you're just asleep and if you don't
01:23:03
remember your dreams then there's a whole period of where essentially you didn't exist
01:23:07
>> in your own consciousness for that period of time and so the idea that that
01:23:11
could extend longer. It's like well that won't be that I won't have to bear the
01:23:15
>> the that the that will be borne by the people around me and the people that
01:23:20
care about me and that's the bit that I don't like. you why um why is your big concern about
01:23:24
leaving Natalie? >> Uh cuz cuz >> just the whole little >> I hate I hate the idea of her being
01:23:31
alone when she won't be. She's got lots of friends and stuff and but I don't
01:23:35
like the idea of of not being there, of her missing me and not being able to help and all of that. So that's the
01:23:41
that's the that's the one bit of all of this that is the that's the intolerably
01:23:46
painful part of it for me. Um >> yeah. And any FOMO? >> No. >> No. I've been
01:23:55
>> That's what it would be. I reckon if I was in your your your shoes, that's what
01:23:58
it would be for me. It' be the, you know, FOMO about Yeah. the stuff that I'm not going to get to see.
01:24:03
>> There's there's all of that like this fear there's the there is all of that.
01:24:08
Um, but again, like I'm I lucky the right word, but like, you know, all of the kids are pretty much older and
01:24:15
>> people and in their life. And that's the thing about like if if you if you're a
01:24:19
parent, if you're lucky, you don't get to see how it ends for your kids. And so
01:24:23
that's something everyone has to kind of deal with. My dad died um 20 something years ago. And um
01:24:30
>> yeah, bowel cancer, right? >> Yeah, it was bowel cancer. And so we
01:24:33
just had, you know, my oldest was just a little guy then and um and my my second one been born, he was
01:24:41
just like a tiny little baby. And so dad missed all of this stuff since then that
01:24:46
he would have enjoyed and all this time and stuff, >> but it's like that's the way that things
01:24:52
kind of sometimes happen. Um, >> someone has to go first. It's like that's how it goes.
01:24:57
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, do do you have like a bucket list or anything like that? I
01:25:01
mean, time time's like running out for all of us, but um, I suppose a diagnosis
01:25:06
like this crystallizes things a bit. I've been where I've been really fortunate in life is that pretty much
01:25:10
everything that I've wanted to do >> done. So like when I was little I wanted
01:25:15
to publish a book or I did that and >> many times >> many times and then wanted to go to the
01:25:19
Antarctic and I did that and that's a pretty miraculous thing. And I've, you
01:25:22
know, my oldest is really into traveling to adventurous and strange places. And so um I've been to some pretty amazing
01:25:32
>> I've you know I'm traveling through Iran and um we went to this thing called
01:25:35
Babach Castle and it always involves walking up some massive bloody hill and um like 600 steps then walking way off
01:25:45
into the back of beyond these mountains in Iran and then you but you come to this bit where you come through this
01:25:50
little cutting and it's like a scene from Lord of the Rings this abandoned castle perched on a cliff face and so
01:25:55
I've done all of that. I've jumped out of planes for telly's men I've got to
01:26:00
do. I've jumped out of planes. I've got just so there's nothing there's nothing
01:26:06
I have on my bucket list. My list now is just about time with people that I care
01:26:09
about. I I don't think ah I wish I'd gone to there because I don't >> you know I mean there are places in the
01:26:13
world that I haven't been to but it's like I don't I don't feel that you know
01:26:16
I can go or not go. It doesn't really >> Google images. >> Um what about regrets? Any regrets? Um,
01:26:24
yeah. I mean, I think most people I think most people do. Like, I wish I'd known earlier in life. I wish I'd worked
01:26:29
out earlier in life that actually you're just you and just relax into that. Like,
01:26:34
I was I've always been quite I was quite shy as a kid. Uh, and as an adolescent,
01:26:40
I was more of a kind of an introvert and stuff. And so I've always kind of oh I wish I' and you can never know this
01:26:48
cuz that's part of the process but I wish I'd kind of known like you're just
01:26:51
you and that's enough like it's fine just relax with that. That would have
01:26:54
made things a lot easier. >> I think a lot of that just comes with um age. You sort of grow into yourself.
01:26:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just realize what's important. >> Well you have to cuz like [ __ ] I'm not
01:27:02
changing like it's just this. It's like oh [ __ ] >> Um and yeah so I think you do. I think
01:27:08
you did. But it's been it'd be nice if I could have known that earlier, but no
01:27:11
one does cuz that's what you work out. I wish I'd there were times I think I'd
01:27:14
done been more doing work like I missed my dad's 60th because I was working we took his adolescence off into the on
01:27:22
these 10day wildness programs. I was doing one of those instead of his and that kind of stuff like I think some my
01:27:27
prioritizing has been a bit wrong. >> Yeah. >> Um >> but you know No.
01:27:33
>> Yeah. Like Sonatra eh? >> Yeah. a few but too few to mention. >> Yeah. It's like there's no point because
01:27:39
like everyone messes things up and of course there are things I could go back and do differently but all of the
01:27:45
>> I just think it all leads to kind of where you are. There's nothing there's
01:27:48
nothing I'd go back and undo because that's led to where I am now. And actually apart from cancer,
01:27:55
I'm pretty happy with where I am now. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. And yeah, [ __ ] up.
01:27:59
It's the human experience, isn't it? >> Yeah, it really is. It's like that's
01:28:01
where you learn the most. And it's where I've always learned the most. It's like
01:28:04
you [ __ ] things up, you make mistakes, you get things wrong. Um, it's like, oh,
01:28:07
that was that was pretty smart. >> What about legacy? Is legacy something you give much thought to or anything?
01:28:12
>> No, cuz it's like I don't care. I'll be dead. Like, no. You know, like, no. Um,
01:28:19
>> I don't know. I feel like it's an ego thing. Like just no one wants to be
01:28:22
forgotten, right? >> Yeah. I'm I'm comfortable with the fact that I'll be completely forgotten. It's
01:28:26
like in a hundred years like no one's going to know who any of us were. Like
01:28:29
there's the Shakespearees and those sorts of people will know who they were.
01:28:33
But for the rest of us, no one's going to know. Um, >> it's a funny thing, isn't it? Even like
01:28:38
the most famous person in the world, say Taylor Swift, 500 years from now, no one's going to know.
01:28:42
>> David Bowie, you know, it's like David Bowie like who died of cancer.
01:28:47
>> It's like even if you're David Bowie, you die. Even Bowie dies. If Bowie dies,
01:28:52
we're all there's no hope for any of us because if anyone was going to not, it'
01:28:55
be him. But >> yeah, no one gets out alive. No. >> Um, are you proud of yourself?
01:29:01
Um, I'm I'm proud of things that I've done and I'm proud of things I've done
01:29:06
and I'm also conscious of the fact that I'm it's always tempered with the idea that
01:29:12
these are things I've done with other people and it's not false humility or
01:29:15
modesty or anything like that. It's just the freaking truth. Like everything I've
01:29:19
ever done that's been of any worth or good at all has been done with other people. It's not all just me. And so
01:29:27
because you write the book and your name's in the front or you present the TV show and say you're the face that
01:29:32
people see, there is that tendency for people to see it as being your thing. But I'm I'm hugely aware that it's not
01:29:39
like it's >> I've I've worked a lot with this guy Mitchell Hawks and Arwin Connor who's um
01:29:45
Mitchell's director and Arwin's a producer and like they're just freaking
01:29:48
geniuses and they're amazingly good at what they do. And so my success in TV
01:29:53
was off the back of everyone else. I do think and radar said to Radar said this once that you know he said don't [ __ ]
01:30:00
this up because if we do the only one that doesn't work again is me. You know
01:30:03
presenters get axed everyone else keeps going. >> Yeah. This has been great. This has been
01:30:10
so much fun. How so this has been like 90 minutes. Is is this um exhausting for you or has this been cathartic? Is it
01:30:16
just >> No, it's not exhausting at all. Like it's a weird thing to sit around and
01:30:19
talk about yourself cuz I don't generally like I cuz I just don't um >> Yeah, I I know that I'm I I listen to
01:30:26
every podcast I could find about you and it's um there's very very few out there.
01:30:30
Um so I was um just incredibly grateful when you said you'd do it. >> Well, no, it's like part of it is like
01:30:37
people are all these lovely people have been concerned and so I do want to kind of let people know that actually I'm
01:30:41
doing all right and I do appreciate the um really appreciate the nice things that people have said. Um,
01:30:49
>> yeah, it's an outpouring of love. >> Yeah, it's really nice. And it it, you
01:30:53
know, it does make me think everybody that gets cancer should get this from everyone cuz it's really nice. So, it's
01:31:00
it's about just letting people know that actually I'm doing all right. And um and
01:31:04
I do think there are I kind of have some ideas of some some I had a bookie idea this morning about
01:31:12
some big ideas and principles of things that kind of work and sharing those with
01:31:16
people because I think None of them are mine. They're all been around for a long
01:31:19
time. But I just think there are things that So, it's been like it's it's
01:31:22
interesting and it's and it's fun. Um, and it's it's like it's the one time you
01:31:26
can talk about yourself and it's like ah >> this is that's the purpose of it. Like
01:31:30
if I don't this is not going to work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It makes it a difficult podcast. I
01:31:34
noticed you um um getting emotional there. Like has the have you become more emotional with the diagnosis like with I
01:31:42
suppose like tears of gratitude? >> Yeah. like I it was I mean it's really
01:31:45
been lovely like the stuff that people have said um and you do I think you do become I remember Dheimmer talked about
01:31:55
this like he would he found himself crying over song lyrics >> and like I I
01:32:02
found myself doing that like I was watching VEP and I forget what something weirdly for
01:32:08
VEP because nothing nice ever happens in VE something nice happened and I got quite tearful over that and um In what
01:32:15
>> in VEP that you know the show um Julie Lou Drifus she's the vice president
01:32:20
sitcom it's really great um and all of the characters are terrible people they
01:32:24
just apart from Gary who's lovely all of them are terrible um but there was something in that that sort of made me
01:32:29
uh a bit sort of uh tearful so you do you do kind of I do feel more about stuff I mean
01:32:36
I'm always been like I'm I don't have an issue with kind of crying getting upset
01:32:39
about stuff and getting getting weepy over things because I think that's all
01:32:43
that's all good and it's part of life. Um, but you certainly I think the chemo
01:32:47
process and the cancer process and re-evaluating things and thinking about your life and how much time you've got
01:32:53
and how much more you want and you know being exhausted and being happy and all of that just see that was a chemo
01:33:00
thought that started as an idea that started as a well-rounded idea and halfway through it I completely lost it
01:33:07
and I thought keep talking it'll come back and then it didn't. and I thought, "No, it's just
01:33:12
going to trail off now." And that's exactly what it did. Yeah. >> [ __ ]
01:33:15
>> Is Is there anything that we um we haven't discussed today that you you
01:33:19
wanted to. >> No, I think just make sure everyone out there >> that you um health insurance if you can
01:33:26
afford it, if you can afford it, income protection if you can afford it, and life it feels like a luxury or it feels
01:33:32
like something that's a waste of money. And it is until you need it. And one in
01:33:37
three people get freaking cancer. I'm not saying that to be doomy and gloomy.
01:33:40
I'm just saying get your affairs in order and as much as you're able to in
01:33:45
the circumstances that you've got, make sure all that practical stuff is sorted
01:33:48
out. Like that's the most if we if I hadn't done some of the things I've
01:33:52
done, it would have been a million times harder. And I feel again, this is the inequity of the health system that there
01:33:59
are a lot of people who have got freaking a million times harder than me because they're dealing with not only
01:34:05
the cancer, the treatment stuff, but not being able to get access to some of those other drugs and um just how do I
01:34:10
pay the bills? And that was my first thought was like, [ __ ] how am I how do I pay the bills? I had no idea what we
01:34:17
were at with insurance stuff. And so um I rang my guy Andy straight away. He was
01:34:22
literally my first call. That's That's bleak, isn't it really? But it's a reality, I guess. Um
01:34:30
>> Yeah. God, selfless, eh? Totally selfless. Um there was Oh, a friend of
01:34:34
mine, Fraser Grew, you you met him in um May 2023. Uh he's doing a thing called
01:34:39
the 10,000 Dreams project where he's going around filming, filming a bunch of
01:34:42
people about their dreams. Can you remember what you said to him in May 2023? >> No.
01:34:46
>> Um your dream then was uh to make the world a fairer place. >> Oh,
01:34:50
>> yeah. Would it still be the same now? >> Uh yeah, it would be. Clearly I didn't
01:34:54
achieve that, did I? Doesn't feel like that that's gone so well. I have to get
01:34:57
a more achievable one. Um, uh, no, I mean, I think I think it's really easy to get lost in the fact that the world's
01:35:04
[ __ ] and everyone's crazy. And I think that since the pandemic, people are sort
01:35:10
of there's an element of people that are kind of angry. Like there's an angry
01:35:14
component to that whole antivax, anti that I find quite disturbing and a bit sad because they feel obviously put
01:35:20
upon. Um, but actually if you look at the statistics, the world is a gentler place than it's ever been. There are
01:35:29
there are less wars. You're less likely to die by violence. You're less likely
01:35:33
to be the victim of a violent crime. And all of these things are true. It just doesn't feel true. It feels like the
01:35:38
world's just going to hell because we got Trump and we got people yelling stuff and crazy things are happening all
01:35:44
over the place. But actually, it's not. The world's actually pretty nice. and
01:35:49
and when people are having trouble, people help them. And so I kind of I just think we just need to kind of just
01:35:57
stay focused on the fact that we're far from perfect and things are still pretty
01:36:00
messed up, but we're getting better. >> We're doing our best. We're chugging
01:36:04
along. You know, climate change. Oh yeah, that's a thing. But someone will someone will work at it soon. I mean,
01:36:10
>> everyone, that's what I'm banking on as well. The smart people do it.
01:36:14
>> The smart people do it. That's what every time I go to these have some fancy
01:36:17
scan. I always say to people do scan, man. I'm so glad that people like you were sitting around and inventing
01:36:24
machines and training the rest of us. We've just been watching Netflix and eating chips and you guys have been
01:36:29
building these amazing machines and training yourself. I'm glad that you're
01:36:32
not like lazy like the rest of us. And it's true. There are people just coming
01:36:36
up with solutions. We'll solve it. It's the world's not going to end.
01:36:41
>> Oh, I love that. Oh, Nigel Ladder, thank you so much. you are a an absolute
01:36:46
national treasure. >> Um >> can we do let's do a follow-up like two
01:36:51
or three years from now. >> Yeah, absolutely. We do a followup two three years from now. Yeah, that would
01:36:54
be good. Be good. I'm sure we'll learn some more things two or three years from
01:36:57
now. >> Um I look I look forward to that. >> Yeah. Oh, I appreciate you so much and
01:37:01
on behalf of um everyone in New Zealand. Thank you so much. >> Oh, thank you, Tom. It's been fun. I've
01:37:06
enjoyed it.