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Cameron Roger managing director of entan New Zealand welcome to my podcast thanks
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for having me May how's things really really good I'm so pleased you're here
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um so full disclosure um I've got a a partnership starting shortly with um your new uh app called B um so we
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thought we'd start this partnership by having having you on so we can uh rip
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the bandaid off and address any concerns that some people may have about what you
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do fantastic yeah first of all I are you the bad guy I certainly don't think so
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um no no not not at all I mean look I think um you know uh racing obviously and and and and wagering has been a big
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part of our um our identity down here in yone for a long time but look hopefully
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today we can cover off a little bit of how that's all evolved I think in a way
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that maybe not everyone in the audience would have been across so I'm looking
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forward to getting into some of that yeah absolutely so first of all we we'll
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um focus on you for a little bit so um you you you um you went to law school got a law degree yeah what what was your
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intention when you when you went to did did you see yourself like being a criminal lawyer what was the plan lack
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of B idea was probably the so I was a horrendous student um some of my my peers probably who might watch this
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would still be mind blond about the fact I actually went to University L to law school but yeah I was playing I was
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playing footy and that was kind of my my my dream uh to be an all black like many
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young men um had the sort of slight disadvantage I wasn't very good um so we
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had to kind of quickly scramble to find a different a different sort of plan and
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yeah I guess I know it sounds a bit crazy but I sort of used to love arguing and debating with people and then
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someone sort of said why don't you try your hand at law school so yeah I went
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along there and bumbled my way through a degree and um yeah managed to get out the other side and and get a law degree
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so that was sort of the origin story there um also learned along the way that I would rather do basically anything
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else with my life than be a lawyer um so I had to kind of and find something else
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to do and yeah find my way to the ti actually it's funny I know maybe three or four people that have got law degrees
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that are redundant they get the degree and don't use them yeah yeah yeah yeah I
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mean were you were you um just before you said you're you know a lot of your
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peers would be surprised is that just are you being modest or were you a [ __ ] student no I was genuinely a very bad
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student so I went to school and only hunger there so I'm an Oakland boy um certainly to the point that it was
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almost comical when I was at school um yeah I don't know I thought I was a I
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was I was a bad student um you know I was disruptive I never did I never I was was late on assignments I barely scoped
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through through it school academically but um yeah I don't know it was it was
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an interesting time it's it's funny when you get um get older and you see um
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people that were you had very low expectations of getting to like really good positions and jobs I find that the
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older I get like I've got a m who's got the nickname doofus who's like a
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pediatric surgeon it's like yeah oh my God that guy I wouldn't want him operating on anyone's cat yeah 100% I
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mean I think maybe maybe surgery it's all different but I say it to my team all the time like there's diminishing
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returns on being clever after a while you know like there's certainly When I
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Look to hire people there's there's a lot of really smart people out there
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that's easy to find but you know looking for judgment a bit of um you know a bit
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of empathy a bit of like all the soft skills really like the soft skills are the hard skills you know so yeah it's
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interesting cuz yeah a lot of people who you might have run off at school sort of
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ended up doing doing okay depending on what the definition of okay is you know it's quite cool though it's refreshing
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to see um so you get your lord degree then you're you're working for the New
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Zealand racing board for like seven years yeah y What's um what what did that job involve um yeah I guess the way
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I sort of landed in it I've I've always loved I used to I used to tell people I
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was into racing but I was I've always loved punting um even when I was young
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um you know me and my we talk about all the time but me and my sister would would bet on everything against each
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other so you know who could finish first who could stand in the Rain the longest
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whatever it might be so you know when I realized that being a lawyer looked like
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basically the worst thing in the world to me all due respect to the lawyers out there I thought well what am I
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interested in and um you know the T was sort of it so yeah sent like a cold email to the I figured out how to put
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this email addresses together and sent a cold email to the then Co and said hey like I'm got this law degree I don't
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like um but you know I've always been interested in the tab B is there anything that I might be able to do over
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there and um yeah the the one upshot I had at the time was I actually started my life um when I was at Uni working in
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a retail store for the tab so I was I was an operator at the the cace I guess and um yeah they sort of liked the that
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I'd reached out and and whatnot and they just found something for me to do for a
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few years so I was kicking around there sort of writing strategy docs for them as a graduate um and yeah that was sort
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of my start my way in if that makes sense where did where did your um like love of um pting come from um you
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mentioned the competitive thing with your sister but like was a parent or a grandparent yeah I mean probably not too
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dissimilar to what other people will tell you like track side was sort of the the soundtrack of my childhood um not so
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much my parents but my uncles and cousins and everyone they were always into racing and yeah I guess you just
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that's what they're doing so you you form an interest in it and um they're
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always punting you know and so I got the same kind of um habits I suppose picked
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up and yeah just never stopped I've always it's always been a part of kind
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of my my world if that makes sense so um you become head of legal at tab in 2020
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finally the Lord agree gets some use yeah that's exactly right what what does
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that mean what does that job mean well it's funny because I had um I was kicking around sort of writing these
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strategy docs and I loved it you know because I'd always been into hting and
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whatnot and I wasn't having to do the law thing so that was a plus but then I
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met a woman called J me who was the general counsel at The Tib so the chief legal honcho and she kind of found out I
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had a law degree which she I think she thought was quite funny at the time um and so I had a cof with her and she said
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well why don't you come and do some work and I sort of said well I didn't really
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ever plan on using it and she's like look it's different in the in-house
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world you know and I said oh okay so I sort of started doing a bit of work uh around the edges with her and yeah I
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started to really enjoy it I think she was right it is a very different experience being a lawyer within a
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business as opposed to like a corporate lawyer at one of the big firms you know you are sort of my experience was you
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you're part of the team you know you are working on Commercial kind of stuff but
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you just have that legal lens that sits over the top of it so yeah I managed to work for her and sort of climb the ranks
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as an in-house lawyer for a while and that was my my background as a lawyer yeah yeah so so um like head of legal at
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TB like what what are you sort of dealing with on a day-to-day basis is are you are you dealing with like
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Banning people or are you dealing with complaints or what what is that well it's a good question I mean so the thing
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people maybe don't realize about the tab is that it's it's a really big business
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so you know we're the second largest retailer in New Zealand for example um really yeah yeah who's number one uh I
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well it used to be Lotto um so potentially they are number one but when you think about our retail business we
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have Standalone stores of which there are 45 or so uh and then we also have I guess uh pub and club tabes that are
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part of another person's store so if you add all those together I mean we're in
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we're in 500 plus venues around New Zealand which is the biggest the biggest
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retailer and then uh we're also the biggest broadcaster so we actually broadcast more live Sport and form of
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racing than than anyone else um and then of course we run the wagering business we have big corporate function so we're
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kind of a massive business I think maybe not everyone properly connects um all of
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these things together but you know in a business of that size there's always
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legal things that need to be dealt with you know contract contracts that need to
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be read and signed and disputes with operators and um um you know commercial Partners customers whatever it might be
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um rights agreements with you know big offshore um Sports and racing providers all that sort of stuff came into play so
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yeah there was more than enough work to go around for the sort of three of us in
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the legal team and um yeah it sort of my day-to-day my day-to-day work so since since you've been managing director um
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there's been a huge change it's gone from tab to inan yeah um so what is what
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is inan where's inan from yeah so look inan is um you know in's a global sort
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of global business um the parent compan is based in the UK um but the inan that people probably hear a bit more about
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down here is a little bit of an offshoot of that so uh we call it inan AZ so so um intang Global as part of its team has
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um has this business intan Australia New Zealand so in Australia Our Brands are Le Brooks and nids uh and down here in
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New Zealand it's tby and now and now beta um and we run pretty independently
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of the inan kind of global stuff we sort of we sort of do our own thing down here
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but but are part of the the in ecosystem and um yeah look we came in um I was actually still at the tab at the time um
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so I don't most people don't don't know too much about the ti but the sort of
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way it was set up up in New Zealand tab funds are racing in sport right so it's
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actually a um a quasi public entity um it doesn't it's not set up to make um
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substantial profit it's set up to generate funding for sport and racing um believe it's still the biggest funder of
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sport outside of the government um and and and definitely is the full funer of racing and so the tab was sort of
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struggling with the settings that we had in place right sort of this quasi commercial government entity that's
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trying to compete with big offshore operators for business and and it just wasn't working I mean there wasn't
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enough being generated uh the tabby was losing market share to Offshore operators Etc and so um the the the
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executive team at the time which I was a part of um decided we needed a new plan
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um and so that was when we we looked at getting a partnership involved with entain to come in and um yeah that's
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basically what what's happened so how much did they pay was that no no it's
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it's out there in the world so um the the deal with in tame was a a significant upfront payment so 100
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million uh was paid up front and that was basically look um racing and Sport were were in bad shape and I guess the
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way the economy was going it was wasn't going to get any better anytime soon so
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that funding went basically towards stabilizing those funding streams for them um and then we guaranteed uh
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effectively guaranteed distributions at uh sort of 150 million a year for the next 5 years and you know that just gave
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funding certainty to racing and Sport at a higher level than the tabi was ever going to deliver so it basically sh up
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the sort of immediate financial future and I guess our job uh now is to build you know beyond that 5 years and make
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sure that you know racing and Sport continues to get that funding increasing year on year and we grow we grow the
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category if that makes sense over the last six months um you people listening to this may have may
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have heard ads on podcast or seen ads on TV or YouTube pre-roll or even old school like newspaper ads and things and
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billboards um the the sexy new TB ads are everywhere with the the wet song Love is All Around yeah hunches all
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around is that is that part of entain is that sort of yeah that was certainly part of what we've been doing so we
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refreshed the T brand we you know it was a bit old and tired and we um we got those we got a marketing team to tell us
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how those three lits should look which which was good um and yeah we did some new some new ads how much did they
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charge you for the logo like $100,000 logo I want to know how much they charge me for the 10 pages before they show me
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it that tells me how I should feel about it if that makes sense you know um but no we those new ads out um just just try
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to put Tab in a different kind of light you know I think that certainly um my perspective on Tabby it's going back a
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few years was sort of old white male um stale you know um you know tired kind of
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just needed it it was in need of something different so so the hunch campaign was was very much aimed at
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presenting it in a different way and yeah it's been pretty well received us far I I think every every big um brand
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or organization goes through this at some point a where you need to like re-energize or reinvigorate the brand
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and it was probably just the time for for tab yeah but I'm I'm similar there
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was a guy that lived over the road from us called Le Li and he every he worked at National Bank Monday to Friday then
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on Saturday he have a stubbies on with the Best Bets in the back pocket handb mustache usually wandering around the
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yard with a transistor um you love the pun yeah well M those stories are I mean everywhere
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right I mean I talk about it all the time I think um one thing I always encourage our staff to do when they
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start on with Tabby if they haven't been around is to go into a tabby on a Saturday afternoon right and just see
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the characters that are there like it really is a community of people you know if you're into racing and you're a
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punter um you have like an instant connection with someone else who is you know and kind of the universal symbol of
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of that what you were was the best bit sticking out of the back pocket which was um classic you I had one I had one
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in my back pocket in six form you know that was kind of me so you know I can spot them a mile away yeah um okay so so
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what is bitat so I'm I'm doing a partnership with be they sponsoring the
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podcast for a little bit what exactly is becha yeah so I guess if you think about
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it we had tab in the market and um you know tab as a brand is very um as much as I say it was old and tied and and
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whatnot it was it needed a refresh it has great recall with new zealanders most people know what the Tabby is it's
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got a customer group that's quite loyal and and and sort of committed but um it
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doesn't really service like I guess the next generation of customers um and look
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um some of the sets that we had to think about when we came into the market you know there's about 190 million of
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gambling losses that are going offshore at the moment so primarily with one of our overseas competitors based of malter
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and bet 365 and we had to take a look at why customers were choosing to bet there
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instead of with us and one of the major problems was that the Tabby brand didn't
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resonate with with the younger demographic when I say younger because I know it's a a term you have to be
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cautious with it's obviously people who are of gambling age if that makes sense
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but under you know hour World younger is under 40 you know that's that's that's
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kind of what we're talking about and yeah we knew that we had to um put something in Market that's still you
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know looked after our existing customers who have been there whove been loyal in
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the tab but then you know gave the the next generation of punters a brand that they can kind of get behind you know one
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of the big stats I use all the time is here in Oakland you know it's the largest or second largest uh migration
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po sorry it's the second most populated city in terms of migrants so most people
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who live here now are not born here and they have no Affinity with the Tabby brand you know they're looking for
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something that they can be a part of that they can resonate with and um beta was our attempt or is our attempt at
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giving them a new look if that makes sense yeah how how do you feel you mentioned those um one of the some of
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the international stuff how do you feel about that cuz I um I got an email a couple of weeks ago from I think it's N1
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N1 B yeah asking asking me if I wanted to like be an influencer for them and I I see ads on YouTube all the time with
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uh I saw one the other day with Jamie Fox there was one with Brenda mcellen for a while how do how how do you feel
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about that using like big celebrities for these things oh I mean look I it's
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not so much the use of the big celebrities that worries me with with these offshore Brands it's that you know
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the the way that the legislative settings have been here in New Zealand for ages is that they're all allowed to
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operate here with almost impunity so you know when we operate we have a whole series of rules we have to follow we
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have to um put safer gambling standards in we have to have relationships with the government and with like Community
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leaders and whatnot these operators don't abide by any of that you know so they can put ads into Market um with
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absolute impunity and um I would say that in many cases they push things way way way too far um through use of of not
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just use of celebrities because it's not necessarily the problem but you know I
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looked at the the X1 no sorry the um can't remember the name but the ads that
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brend McCullum was in for a while there you know portraying him as a lavish um kind of successful person through his
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bding that's just not something we could ever do down here or would ever want to
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do down here um but the fact that they were able to do that and push it so hard in in New Zealand is's a real fault in
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the in the legislative settings as as we see it yeah cuz they're not having to
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play by the same roles no no they're not you know and like you know you think
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about you know when we think about our products we have to give regard to um you know things like um vulnerable
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communities which in the gambling world is um M and Pacific right where they're
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they're disproportionately harmed by by gambling activity we have to think about
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how our ads will be received within those communities we have to consult no we have to we do consult with them to
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understand you know this resonate what are different ways that we can access um you know those that those groups and do
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we think that X1 are doing any of this like absolutely not you know they have no regard for for for our communities
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down here and yeah it's just a massive hole that an alv view really does need
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to be sold um pretty quickly and the growth of offshore gambling is is insane you know it's it's it's it's
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exponentially growing um and the fact that you know we have no visibility over how those customers are bidding and
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whether they're doing it safely or whether they're being monitored as as a
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real real course of a concern yeah you're speaking of that being monitored thing um so I signed up to uh beter just
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last week yeah um was a surpris it it was a surp it was thorough but it was still surprisingly easy even for like a
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boomer like me it was like a f minute process I needed to take a photo of the front and back of my driver's license
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photo and all that and then there was some questions like um you know how much would you spend on average what would be
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a big bet is that um so I can be monitored so if there's a regular a regular patterns then it'll be picked up
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by some yeah spot on I mean it's it's twofold so your ID is obviously make
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sure that you're age and um and that that's validated and then we got some
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secondary questions which you described they have two purposes one is for anti-money laundering so to make sure
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you're not doing anything you shouldn't in that regard and then to give our team
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a cross reference point as well to what normal behavior could look like for you um it's not a firm marker because we put
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an objective we put our own objective test around every customer but you know if you say you're only going to be
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spending $10 a week and all of a sudden you're spending 50 well that's a that's
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a flag for us to make sure that we check in and see what's going on and why money
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even even with a a smallish amount like that say $10 to $50 yeah well it's interesting I know it's something that
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gets talked about a little bit but the value that someone bets both ways is not really in and of itself a great marker
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for potential gambling harm right so you know I watched the Michael Jordan documentary I thought he actually he was
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at pains trying to point it out to people but I've I've lived this and can
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see it right so you know $20,000 to Michael Jordan is like $10 to an average person it's loose change the time and it
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genuinely is right and like you know one thing that we struggle with is trying to
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talk to maybe the regulator or if there's a public story about someone who's bet you know B and lost a large
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sum of money but we know for a fact that that relative to their net worth is absolutely not a problem for them um you
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know it's an interesting kind of part of the game and it goes the other way so
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you know if someone's losing $50 a week but you know we know that they can't
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afford to be losing that that's a lot of money for a lot of people particular in
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this climate then absolutely it becomes a money okay yeah um the story I do tell
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when I was working in the space like fulltime we had a customer and so what we would do is um you know we'd have
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sort of weekly check-ins with certain customers if if there were markers that we had to keep an eye on and check how
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they're going and we had this one this one customer call Mr Mr X uh Mr X who um
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we had actually asked for um a source of wealth so basically making sure that he
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was financially sound just given the levels he was biding at and all of that had come through and um you know he had
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he had basically a bank account that had 20 million plus in it he had a few other
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assets so this is the type of scale we're talking about but the team came to
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me on on the Monday and said um You probably have to chat to Mr X again I said why and they said oh he lost
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200,000 over the weekend you know which which it sounds to to me or you was insane terrifying terrifying and I was
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like okay shoot yeah let me get get hold of him so I ring him we suspend his account which is what we'll do ring him
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four or five times leave messages no answer just leave it suspended that he'll he'll call me so he calls me back
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that night and he said hello he's like hello Cam and I was like hey he's like I
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was like you're a first Bas yeah yeah for sure we the CH all the time I said
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on Mr X like you know the team let me know that you had a bad week and he's he
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genuinely just says what and I was like you know you lost 200 you know's everything all right and he sort of like
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started to get grumpy and he was like yeah everything's fine what he can I swear she said what the [ __ ] the
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problem and I was like well Mr X um 200,000 is a lot of money to some people people and then he just pauses and he
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goes [ __ ] being one of those people you know and so this is like this is what we
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deal and in in all in all seriousness like he was very financially sound he was aware of what he was doing he wasn't
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showing any chasing behaviors or other markers that would be problematic it was just a lot of money but to him you know
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it wasn't a lot of money that's like the average person in the street losing two
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bucks you know so yeah it's always a tough one to to to kind of uh deal with
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the the sort of focus or not focus on the the monetary value but it's it's
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part of how we how we look at it all yeah I suppose for him to get the same Adrenaline Rush he needs you know you
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more skin in the game potentially yeah for sure I mean and that's been my experience with with with punting like
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the way I the way I've always gambled is I have to feel something you know good
00:21:13
or bad um and so you know my my my experience has been just stepping up I guess the amount that I wager as my
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income allows for it you know that's the natural part of the process for for me
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um you know and for others as well how how many people like Mr X are you are you calling every Monday oh no not not
00:21:30
many to be clear there aren't many people who wager at that level and look you know a massive part of our um
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objective down here in New Zealand and in general is to to to get away from a Reliance on high value customers you
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know it's easy to say because everyone wants a recreational ised customer base
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but just for the reasons that it does require constant attention it requires you know monitoring it requires um
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thinking about how and when they they're gambling whereas we can usually manage a
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lot better in in relation to customers who are spending what we can see as truly discretionary amounts you know
00:22:04
like basically the way we'll talk about it as a team is if you've got 20 bucks
00:22:08
on a Friday to to to spend on some form of entertainment we want to win that dollar you know we want you to put a
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sanay multi on the league or whatever else that's our dream in terms of a customer base because it is infinitely
00:22:18
easier to to manage now um my personal um um bedding habits are probably like this um maybe $100 to $200 a year
00:22:28
Melbourne cup couple of all black games maybe a Parker fight y maybe some UFC am
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I um yeah what percentage of customers are like me and are we a pain in the ass no you're you're you're you're a
00:22:40
fantastic uh group of customers I mean I think I think the average spend on gambling in New Zealand per year is
00:22:45
about at the $60 Mark and that includes Lotto which takes up a huge and pokeys which take up a huge proportion of it
00:22:50
certainly not all coming our way but look I mean your experience is entirely common one um Combat Sports especially
00:22:57
get a lot of oneoff attention um the Melbourne cup sort of does get get everyone having that one bit of the year
00:23:03
and slowly we're starting to see a daylight maybe cracker Millions like our own our own local event getting someone
00:23:09
off custom and no you're you're a great you're a great customer of ours I guess
00:23:13
um provided you're doing it um safely and enjoying what you're doing then
00:23:16
that's that's perfectly fine with us always always and I I'm I must say I
00:23:20
don't know if this is an irresponsible thing to say but if I'm watching Like An
00:23:22
All Blacks game or a Warriors game and I've got 10 bucks on bod to score the
00:23:27
first roal whatever it does it it does make it more exciting it's more of an
00:23:32
intense watch you feel you have more skin in the game yeah look it's um yeah
00:23:36
we we have to be careful a little bit with how we we sort of push this because I don't know if you've seen but on our
00:23:43
um hunch land campaign we sort of we talk about um the slogans get your beted on and we we sort of show it as a social
00:23:50
activity where people are Bing together to increase the enjoyment of the sports so sort of what you're talking about I
00:23:55
guess the line that we want to make sure we're walking carefully is is to to to
00:24:00
to to point that out to say hey it's a really great social activity that can
00:24:02
add enjoyment to to sport but that it can't become a prerequisite to your enjoyment right like what we don't want
00:24:08
to see as a customer who has to have some action on a game to still be a fan of the sport that's when it's gone a
00:24:13
little bit too far so within that campaign we actually um we launched a a very specific and targeted safer gam
00:24:21
message which is um you know the standard line is get your uh get your bid on and this one is nowh not to get
00:24:26
your bid on and it shows someone you know the whole ad is set up as if it's going to be another hunch ad but it's
00:24:30
just someone who says hey I'm just going to actually set this one out you know um
00:24:35
and that's very direct and targeted from us it's it's trying to show that like
00:24:40
you don't have to have it's not a prerequisite to enjoyment but if it does
00:24:43
add to your enjoyment then hey that's that's great as well like that's what
00:24:45
we're here for you know yeah now um give us a a peek if you can behind the scenes
00:24:50
at the T say uh you accept a big bet like if someone has say $50,000 on Argentina to beat the All Blacks um
00:24:58
what what happens does um does it have to be approved by a senior member of the team do you guys [ __ ] yourself when
00:25:05
Argentina win and um look I mean action at that level nowadays is there's no way that we're
00:25:11
taking a bit like that unless we know who the customer and what they're all about basically because it's just you
00:25:15
know it's just so uncommon now to see it used to be a little bit more prevalent
00:25:19
to be honest but um it's just so uncommon now for us to see action like that coming out of nowhere so we'll
00:25:24
usually know who it is um and it depends in terms of how we um how we react to it
00:25:28
it really depends on the depth of the market you know if it's on the All Blacks or if it's on English Premier
00:25:34
League or on uh NBA for example you know we we we'll take the bit you know the
00:25:39
reason we'll take it is that um it's very unlikely that in those sports that
00:25:43
you have maybe info or um a stare on how the game might go and I mean legitim perfectly within the Realms of
00:25:51
legitimacy um that we don't already have so we we trust our prices and we'll take
00:25:55
it but you know there's events like um I guess Ukrainian table tennis is the
00:26:00
one that I I would throw out there you know if we're taking a $50,000 bit on if
00:26:04
we're getting a $50,000 bid on that we're asking immediately well why you
00:26:07
know because it's not a it's not a market that has great depth or great understanding about where things should
00:26:12
be lined up to so yeah look we're a bet business and if it's coming from the
00:26:16
right the right person and it's on it's on a market that's deep enough we'll
00:26:19
we'll absolutely take it yeah but but if there's if there's a big loss like do
00:26:22
you um do you have to make a phone call on Monday to someone at inan in the UK for it please explain oh man it's
00:26:28
interesting because you know where we lose our money down here in New Zealand is on is on kiwi favorite so um a few
00:26:35
weeks ago um I woke up in the morning and checked the I'm obsessed about the
00:26:40
kind of daily results I checked the results and went to sleep and we were tracking quite well you all had gone
00:26:45
good the racing was fine but woke up and there was this $600,000 sort of hole basically we've been wiped out and I was
00:26:53
like what is going on so I was trying to scan through looking at all The Usual Suspects trying to figure out as in
00:26:58
Sports trying to figure out where it might have gone wrong couldn't find it and then I was sort of got sick of
00:27:03
trying to find it so I was like I'll figure this out in a sec flicked over to
00:27:05
Instagram and I saw that Lydia Co had won the gold medal oh my God and so that's a classic example you know Lydia
00:27:11
Co paying $70 which she was at one point um you know you only need a few people to put 100 bucks 10 bucks 20 bucks you
00:27:17
know a bunch of people putting those numbers on and all of a sudden we're up
00:27:20
for a huge liability you know you mentioned another one Joe Parker you know when he fought um goodness it might
00:27:27
have been Joshua Anthony Joshua um you know new zealanders love backing a home favorite uh a home you know a HomeTown
00:27:34
favorite um but if they're showing up as an underdog then they love it even more
00:27:37
so you we carry huge liabilities on some some kiwis which conflicts me because obviously I'm a proud kiwi and I want to
00:27:43
see them do well but you know it it's pretty tough sometimes when they come through from a business perspective yeah
00:27:48
yeah and it's going to be a hard one for you for you and your position because um
00:27:51
yeah there's the social responsibility and the community responsibility but also you want to you know run a
00:27:56
profitable business as well yeah and look it's long term for us you know like
00:28:00
I guess one thing we got to new people who come into our business the bidding game is a little bit unlike any other
00:28:05
like we can have days where we lose Millions you know like it's just the swings and roundabouts and you just got
00:28:10
to trust that over a long enough period it will all kind of come come come through in the wash but yeah when you
00:28:16
get unseasonably uh out of character results not saying lyia co- winning the gold
00:28:20
medals out of character of course it's not but um you know when you get a run
00:28:23
of things like that happening the punters get well in front for for a decent period which is always
00:28:28
interesting to watch yeah H something like golf it's so hard to beat on you look at someone like Tiger Woods I think
00:28:32
he won like 20% of his T like it's so hard um okay now this is this is kind of
00:28:40
kind of icky but um I thought we could talk about the psychology of gambling one of my uh real early podcast guest
00:28:45
was um Zack Guilford um yeah former all black World Cup winner um and I did a podcast with him in Christ Church when
00:28:52
he was on home detention um after like stealing money off his granddad to um for his gambling so I've got a I've got
00:28:58
a quote from that podcast I thought after this we can see what you know about the psychology of like a problem
00:29:04
Gambler um for me drugs and alcohol uh were binges that I had to come to work in with my Rugby career gambling was a
00:29:11
constant addiction it was mainly just horses and Sport for me it was an an adrenaline rush you've got 10K on a
00:29:17
horse and it wins by a nose down the straet that's a pretty big rush I've put
00:29:21
25k on horses winds didn't feel like a lot uh there would be that automatic relief but then it's just the samey
00:29:28
again chasing more it didn't matter if I got up to 100K in my tab account there
00:29:32
was never enough it was never going to be enough because um I was an addict chasing greed so now he's he's the like
00:29:40
he's that top 2% or the bottom 2% however you want to frame it like he's a
00:29:43
real problem Gambler what's the psychology of like someone like that yeah look I mean there there's a bunch
00:29:50
of stuff I mean I know I've listened to Zack talk about his gambling on on in
00:29:54
various forums um I don't know if I'd seen the one on your pod but I've heard
00:29:57
him talk about it and I think his experience is is not uncommon at least from what I've seen so um you know
00:30:04
couple the biggest the biggest indicator of I guess gambling harm or the biggest
00:30:09
driver of gambling harm is poverty so much like many other um negative health health conditions coming from a
00:30:15
background of um I guess poor financial literacy of um other potentially harmful
00:30:20
and addictive behaviors in the household is often um a big a big driver of it and
00:30:25
the kind of the the the risk-seeking behavior that you can find um that will sit alongside some of that too and also
00:30:31
comes with mental health I think um Zach's talked before about ADHD and and his experience with that um you know
00:30:36
these are all parts of the puzzle of how gambling addiction can come um into into
00:30:42
someone's life um and look I mean Zach's experience I think is a combination of
00:30:47
all of those things from what I've heard him talk publicly about U maybe not so
00:30:50
much the poverty side but I know that um certainly amongst the family unit there
00:30:54
was a lot of gambling that went on um you know the his mental Health struggles that he's talked about are are obviously
00:31:00
indicators as well so you know those are things that can for for an individual uh
00:31:05
magnify The Rush right I mean there's a rush associated with gambling at at all
00:31:09
levels really um but his experience of feeling it more and wanting it more are usually driven by by some of those
00:31:16
factors that I think he's talked about quite openly yeah I mean he's he was in
00:31:20
no way shape or form like blaming anyone but himself no 100% he's I know there's
00:31:25
probably some people that think you guys you guys are the best bad guys but Zack
00:31:28
definitely wasn't doing that like he knows it's all on all on him do you do
00:31:31
you guys get like hate mail or anything or if you go to functions do you get people like bailing you up trying to no
00:31:37
no not really I mean it's like it's an interesting one because I talk about this all the time
00:31:44
like our our biggest challenge where we get the most negative press this this might sound crazy to people but it's
00:31:49
when we're taking tabs out of communities like the worst press that we get is like the local especially in
00:31:55
rural communities the way that our ret business was being run before much like others becoming less efficient you know
00:32:02
with the entain partnership we're sort of in a position now to change that a
00:32:05
little bit but it was a sort of scaling down of retail operations and nothing ignited passion and fire I guess in my
00:32:12
direction more than when a community was losing their T so it's kind of the inverse now I'm not saying that we get
00:32:18
praised in the streets for our work but but that's sort of the area where I I
00:32:21
get the most black um but look of course I've had family members who have talked
00:32:25
to me directly about it um you know and I've had people in the health sector who
00:32:29
have have talked to me about it too I guess the thing I always have tried with them is to um I guess give them a real
00:32:36
sense of the work that we do do and look it's it's hard for gambling operators
00:32:40
because I I avoid the holier than thou kind of rhetoric that I see from maybe some of my peers offshore where you know
00:32:46
they're at pains to say well we've got these great processes in place we've got
00:32:49
these great systems which is all very true but I also remember the days when it wasn't true right and that's that's a
00:32:54
reality that I think the gaming sector needs to front up to a bit a bit more clearly like the way I describe it is I
00:33:01
think that the world probably not the world but many people would probably sit and think that me and my PE sit around a
00:33:06
board table and we say hey should we should we take this guy for all he's worth and it's just completely devoid of
00:33:12
how we actually operate as a business like there's not a single person in our
00:33:15
business that would want or ever condone having someone who we can work out or determine has an issue with gambling
00:33:21
gambling with us but at the same time if you went around that same board table 20
00:33:24
years ago that probably was some of those discussions taking place so MH I I try to give a lot more I try to be
00:33:31
understanding about people's perspectives on us and what we do because that that idea doesn't just
00:33:36
change overnight so I often will talk like Zach's experience the way that he
00:33:40
was and again I'm talking about this not because he's a customer of ours but
00:33:43
because he's talked about it publicly before the way he describes how he was
00:33:46
gambling in his early days of Super Rugby a person could not gamble like that anymore it just isn't possible
00:33:51
because of the checks and balances that we've we've put in place and because you
00:33:54
know gambling operators responsible ones I think like what what we are down here
00:33:59
um have worked out that we have to we can't be an ambulance at the bottom of
00:34:03
the cliff anymore we have to put things in place that are preventative for people to avoid them getting into
00:34:07
trouble in the first place not to to to say hey here's a pamphlet when things
00:34:11
when things go wrong the old pamphlet oh yeah take pamphlets at the casino oh yeah here you go you go right here's the
00:34:17
pamphlet okay someone write down that we gave him the pamphlet like that's just
00:34:20
not how certainly not how we operate now but again you go back 20 years like yeah
00:34:25
that was that was the game well that probably um yeah the next thing I was going to ask was you know we probably
00:34:30
don't need to even go there um how common is it for a family member to reach out about a loved one but I'm
00:34:35
guessing with the measures you've got in place yeah um it doesn't get to that
00:34:38
point or certainly certainly far less frequently than it used to yeah um cuz I mean the the game back in the day it's
00:34:45
always there always been so one of the things I to Champion just to give context is it used to be called
00:34:51
responsible gambling which I like I I would liken to sort of like when the smoking uh when
00:34:58
the tobacco industry just like gave the term responsible smoking like the criticism there was one there's probably
00:35:04
no version of smoking that's responsible which which is a key difference to gambling but the main point of it was
00:35:09
that it was putting all the onus back on the individual it was like you are either going to be responsible or IR
00:35:13
responsible which is a fundamentally it's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at gambling
00:35:18
addiction um if people could behave responsibly and and the owners could just sit with them and they they could
00:35:24
handle it all themselves then we wouldn't need these protective measures in the first place so you know
00:35:29
redefining that as safe for gambling or or a version of it that's um that's
00:35:33
framed slightly differently was sort of the first step um and look we our business being entame really championed
00:35:40
a lot of the self-help tools right so you have to put those in place first you have to give people the opportunity to
00:35:45
to to take the onus on themselves but you have to have the fullback measures there you have to be doing the
00:35:50
monitoring you have to um understand the profile of your customer and you have to
00:35:54
take Intervention when they might not be accessing those themselves and look ever
00:35:58
since we've taken that two-pronged approach as a business and and really upped our game on both sides and I'm
00:36:03
talking this is this is years ago now but especially of late um you know we don't have the family interventions that
00:36:08
we used to have um you know we just we just don't encounter them at any kind of
00:36:12
uh significant rate anymore which is great you know yeah so of the bands that you have now how many how many would be
00:36:17
self-imposed versus you know bands that you're putting on customers um look so
00:36:21
self-impose is is is is is always going to be more prevalent so you know the the
00:36:27
best the best thing a person can do when they're struggling with their gambling
00:36:30
at any given moment is to either take a break or to to take a permanent exclusion right and you know there's
00:36:35
always going to be uh situations where the individual gets to their conclusion before us and even before the harm
00:36:39
itself even shows up so that's that's still the more prominent uh measure uh
00:36:44
the next would be I guess interventions from us um and then the last one which again is a tiny tiny percentage would be
00:36:49
if there was a third party intervention and here in New Zealand the system is that you can go to your counselor
00:36:54
obviously um you can get some some free Help Services through that and then often through those counseling sessions
00:37:00
they'll they'll determine with the counselor that gam might be adding to
00:37:04
their their problems or whatever else um and so we'll get an approach from a
00:37:07
counselor to to help with an exclusion for that person and that that that's pretty common too but it's not usually
00:37:13
as direct as a family member calling and saying hey something's wrong here um
00:37:17
yeah Sky City got in trouble recently um there was some problem gamble on a on a
00:37:22
slot machine that was spent way more than what they should have and the their punishment is really steep they've got a
00:37:27
shut down you you know more about this than me they got to shut down for a few days or yeah look I not speak to out of
00:37:32
t on this but I know that um I believe it was a time played time playing um issues I think it was that a a a
00:37:38
particular customer was was sort of present in the gaming floor for too long um which look I think is it's always
00:37:45
been a hard one um to kind of monetize and again not speaking from Sky City's
00:37:49
perspective but from ours you know someone in the retail store for a long period of time um you know it can be
00:37:55
harmful and it's something that should trigger someone to say hey is your everything all right but you know at the
00:37:59
same time um you know a long session uh in a store is not always a sort of harmful activity but I think in in this
00:38:05
case kity was found that it was it was over the top and look I think one of the real core kind of developments that
00:38:11
they've um adopted which we're in the process of of rolling out ourselves is
00:38:15
is the use of technology to find those people faster you know so they've got
00:38:19
facial recognition uh technology now to I guess identify people who have excluded or might look underage which is
00:38:26
another good benefit of it um but it's also a really key tool to be able to identify people who have been there for
00:38:32
a long period of time and to send someone out and have a conversation which I know that Sky City are are doing
00:38:37
now so look it's um it's probably a a big wake up call I think for other
00:38:42
operators to say look you've got to be on top of um time play they have to shut
00:38:47
for a whole weekend or something which they'll they'll lose a serious amount of
00:38:49
income from that what what are the consequences for you if you guys um you know if someone slips through the Craigs
00:38:55
yeah look it's quite severe like yeah look of course it can be yeah look um you know we we have to take on the
00:39:02
onus and the responsibility of of looking out for people I mean it's it's
00:39:05
a large part of our remit in New Zealand it's you know we're supposed to drive W
00:39:09
during turnover for sports and racing as I touched on earlier but it can never be
00:39:12
at the expense of um of people sufferings from undue harm so look if um if we were found to be in breach in the
00:39:19
same way I doubt that the penalties would be any different for us as lot Sky City have had and look we've got 500 uh
00:39:24
venues you know that's an awful lot of ground to cover you know it's an awful
00:39:28
lot of staff to train I worked in a a tabi retail store and you know back then I had to look at a list of people 400
00:39:35
photos every day before my shift and try to remember them all in case one of them
00:39:39
came in the store like you were on a hideing to Nowhere back then you know but the Advent of facial wreck obviously
00:39:45
now those faces go into a um into a machine that a cloud system that can identify them in real time through
00:39:51
camera Tech so it's vastly improved but um you know it's it's a tough job yeah
00:39:56
at least someone comes in with like fake mustache and glasses oh genuinely you know no I'm definitely not him yeah and
00:40:02
like the challenge back then was you know we'd have customers who were um lifetime exclusion customers of course
00:40:08
and you would get one photo but they could be on that list for 10 years so you try to pick up someone from a small
00:40:13
photo that was taken 10 years ago you know it's not it's not particularly easy
00:40:17
but as I say technolog is again helping us in this journey to kind of keep this all in check yeah um one thing um like
00:40:25
occasional customers like me would um notice is you get these notifications about specials like spend 50 bucks we'll
00:40:32
give you another 50 bucks or whatever what's the what's the goal with these
00:40:36
it's interest it's interesting because it comes up a lot like people would
00:40:40
would think that it's um how do I it's like an inducement kind of trying to get
00:40:45
you get you gambling the way that we structure Promos in most gambling businesses do is it's it's it's loss
00:40:50
insulation basically it's look you know especially in the current environment
00:40:55
customers losing you know three races straight they're usually calling it a day so what our um specials are usually
00:41:01
aimed at doing is you know finding a way to get that money back into your pocket
00:41:06
so that you can keep going and keep enjoying the product you know we want people when they take a bit to have a
00:41:11
enjoyable experience that that last some a decent amount of time so it's sort of
00:41:14
a recycling of of of your your spend basically to keep you engaged more to to to not have it be a one or two race sort
00:41:22
of thing you extend that $20 out to to three or four four four or five races that's sort of the the theory behind um
00:41:28
generosity and it it seems to be going pretty well yeah yeah cuz I know anyone that's um like got it in for you guys
00:41:35
they'll think there's a sinister meaning behind it like the idea is to get people
00:41:39
hooked oh for sure and look I think there's there's there's versions of it
00:41:41
that have shown up in a way that are problematic so I I look at What's happen
00:41:46
what's still happening overseas you know if you're giving someone a ,000 sign up
00:41:50
bonus at some of these online casinos which people do get um and then when they put that $1,000 in and they get the
00:41:56
bonus to get the money out out they have to play X hours before they can withdraw
00:41:59
like these are these are behaviors that are not conducive to what I'm describing
00:42:05
here these are things that are designed to get you in at a higher price point than what you would have liked and to
00:42:09
keep you locked in there for a longer period than what would otherwise be acceptable you know those versions of it
00:42:14
are problematic I guess you know one thing I do try to caution down here in New Zealand is not thinking that that
00:42:19
because that's what's happening somewhere that that's what we're doing
00:42:21
as well you know it's the same with advertising like you know I talk like I've been in the UK and God and even and
00:42:29
and it's hard even for me as someone who loves loves punting to to sit there and
00:42:34
say that that's a healthy amount of advertising for people to be seeing like
00:42:38
there's 70 operators operating in a small space and you know it's it's
00:42:42
probably too much but what I try to remind people down here when they talk about gam advertising is that it's just
00:42:47
us you know like it's only the ti advertising down here and you know we're
00:42:52
not running at the kind of frequency that you see anywhere near offshore and it's one of the great benefits of having
00:42:57
a sole operator in the market is that you don't get in inundated with with ads do do you feel like um lot lot gets
00:43:05
a free pass compared to you guys like I your EDS are on TV a lot and I know they're polarizing for some
00:43:12
people and then lot those ones and they selling the stream of what you do if you
00:43:15
won $40 million do you I don't know if they get a I mean I think and God i'
00:43:20
someone bit AFF to be honest I think Lotto has been the most complained about ad previously really yeah so I think it
00:43:25
does I think it does get a lot of attention I mean I think I think the the difference with Lotto which is which is
00:43:29
everyone will probably understand this is that it's just not seen as gambling
00:43:32
to people you know what I mean um you know it's it's seen as sort of this uh
00:43:37
you know it's Community good it's the give back is much better understood for
00:43:41
lotto than what it is for tab you know we fund racing and and Grassroots Sports and and professional sport in New
00:43:46
Zealand to a really high degree but most people don't know that they think it's
00:43:49
just a corporate business that that's soaking up the profit whereas Lotto has
00:43:52
done a really fantastic job of helping people understand that it does go back out but more than just that it's just
00:43:58
that that form of gambling being Lottery is just not seen the same as you know wagering or casino gambling or class
00:44:04
fours it's yeah it just doesn't hit the same kind of um note but you know
00:44:08
according to the definition of gambling is very much gambling you know what I mean yeah it's strange isn't it I
00:44:12
suppose because um I don't know maybe it's a psychology thing because if
00:44:16
you're having a like a bed on a horse or a sports game there's there's a there's
00:44:19
a there's a chance you're going to win whereas Lotto you you you pretty much
00:44:23
know you're not going to win yeah you're basically throwing the money I but I
00:44:27
don't know how the psychology of that works yeah well it's it's why I mean
00:44:30
I've I've never been a lotto player myself but it's because I feel like I
00:44:33
have probably too good a grip on statistics if that makes sense but it's each to their own you know I guess
00:44:37
that's the thing people people people enjoy and and Dabble in all sorts of activities for reasons that I can't
00:44:44
understand so I'm not I'm not going to try to um try to trivialize what people
00:44:47
do but um yeah it's been incredible to see I mean look we don't actually have a
00:44:51
a huge crossover of of our players to Lotto either which does show you that it is a different kind of activity you know
00:44:57
when when the lotto jackpot gets up it doesn't mean that we have a a bad week
00:45:01
it seems to be that our customers continue on so you know different psychology probably as you described
00:45:06
yeah yeah cuz that's when I'll buy a luto tiet when it's a like a a highly
00:45:10
publicized Power Ball drawer at 30 million or whatever and then uh so I'll buy my $30 ticket or however much it is
00:45:16
then I'll immediately regret it the next day it's like of course I wasn't going
00:45:19
to win yeah what's interesting cuz I guess one thing though and again this is
00:45:23
not a this is not a shot at Lotto bying stretch because like you know they they're great but I mean like one thing
00:45:28
that we try to be really cautious of is that gambling should never be especially
00:45:33
wagering should never be seen as a way to relieve Financial pressure right like it's not that it's a form of
00:45:37
entertainment where it's more than likely you are going to lose it what you're doing but you know I think that
00:45:42
the challenge sometimes with maybe um the nature of the way that Lotto is is a life-changing amount of money so becomes
00:45:50
hard to not present the uh the end goal is something that will change your life you know but it is it is a challenge for
00:45:56
them I think because you know Lotto is not a sound way to alleviate Financial pressure nor is nor is Bing on sports or
00:46:03
racing yeah where do you see um inan being in like the next 5 to 10 years um that's a good question
00:46:11
um look like the team at inan like if you if you were to meet them you'll the
00:46:16
thing you'll take away is that we are very passionate about racing in sport um
00:46:22
you know what what we want to see um is is those sectors thriving down here in New Zeal I on the racing side especially
00:46:29
I think that um it's a chronically under told story just how incredible the breeding sector is down here in New
00:46:35
Zealand um how we mix it up on the racing scene with like the absolute best in the world off of you know this
00:46:41
country that's got hardly any scale a small population you know all the challenges that come with being so far
00:46:47
removed geographically from everyone you know we all want to see that Thrive and
00:46:51
you know certainly why I'm in the job and I think that that's why everyone
00:46:54
else is so we want to play our role and and building um building those sectors up to be sort of the best things that
00:47:00
they can be and you know we've been involved in things like the industry uh intan industry Awards to try and develop
00:47:05
Pathways for people to get into into it and yeah just really deliver and I guess
00:47:09
what how we do that is by delivering a good product a wagering product to our customers you know something that we can
00:47:14
be proud of I say my old boss got Mike Tod is very very influential in my career he said to me that number eight y
00:47:23
[ __ ] don't work anymore um kiwis don't want to accept second r we we use we use
00:47:29
top end apps we use high quality products like the idea that we can offer up to New Zealand is something that's
00:47:35
below par relative to the rest of the world just doesn't fly anymore and so you know we we know as a business that
00:47:40
for us to I guess deliver on our vision we have to deliver amazing products to people and that's what we want to do you
00:47:46
may have you may have just answered this before but um I'll ask it just in case
00:47:50
there's a different answer what do you find most rewarding about your role oh
00:47:53
look it is the it is the it is the industry so like it's it's hard to explain I thought about kind of this
00:47:58
concept on the way over think it might be something you'd ask um like from when
00:48:02
I was a graduate in in this job like I was very much and I I think this was a somewhat unique experience at least the
00:48:09
way the intensity of how I felt it like I always felt like I there were people who relied on me to do a good job um and
00:48:17
in this case like the stakeholders of racing and sports industry you know the people who are playing amateur sport who
00:48:22
who who who need funding the people who are in the racing game who are trying struggling to make in meet I always felt
00:48:28
a very real obligation to those people and I still do um you know and I think it came it comes with so much pressure
00:48:36
because you know you you sort of feel like you're carrying the weight of the
00:48:38
world which you're not always but but but I always felt like doing a good job
00:48:43
for them was the thing I wanted most basically out of anything in the world you know and I guess what I find
00:48:49
rewarding especially now with with uh the AME partnership in full swing is that we have a realistic shot of doing
00:48:54
the best job that we could have um so that's that's probably the part of it
00:48:58
that I find most rewarding is when I see you know them getting a leg up really yeah and and within our own business you
00:49:05
know I like I said we're the biggest broadcaster of Life sport in New Zealand
00:49:08
and when we were trying to scrap together you know rub two coins together to make a third to survive we had a
00:49:14
whole broadcasting division that weren't able to be broadcasters you know just
00:49:17
became a film the next race move on and yeah I get a lot of satisfaction from seeing them being able to do good work
00:49:24
um with with good tools and you know I'm a proud kiwi and I I want to see New
00:49:29
Zealand be able to mix it up with the best in the world and be given the settings to do it you know um so all of
00:49:34
that is is what I find really rewarding I suppose yeah how long are you going to
00:49:37
be around for must be a a stressful job yeah it is I don't know like it's
00:49:43
it's easy when you do you do love it but oh look I think that for me um I'm only
00:49:48
33 so that's probably the other thing people should should know about me I'm
00:49:51
still quite quite young and I've still got a oh yeah [ __ ] you've done a lot I
00:49:55
know I've done a lot but no I have the the I think I say this all time I the
00:49:59
the insane privilege of looking a lot older than I was so when I walk into these sittings where I probably didn't
00:50:03
belong um no one really questioned it at least not visually you know which is which is a privilege I think about all
00:50:09
the time um that not everyone had the the benefit of but yeah I'm only I'm
00:50:12
only 30 33 and so you know I really want to see see this part of my my life out I
00:50:18
want to see um this industry do well I want to see New Zealand has be given a great product I want to see our our
00:50:24
products be safer than they've ever been um and I want I want to make sure that
00:50:27
we're on a pathway towards uh sustainability for all of those things so I guess yeah when that's when that's
00:50:33
over hopefully I can move on to the next thing but for now I'll be sticking around yeah yeah hey this has been
00:50:38
really enjoyable today cam thanks so much for coming over thanks for answering those questions um yeah yeah
00:50:44
yeah yeah hopefully anyone that I mean anyone that's got an issue with the T
00:50:48
wouldn't probably listen to a podcast like this anyway cuz they'll accuse it
00:50:51
of being propaganda or whatever um but I I really I'm looking forward to working
00:50:56
with B and um I've really enjoyed having you on the podcast today to answer some of
00:50:59
those um curly questions no no problem at all and look we're really excited about this partnership and um yeah
00:51:05
hopefully your viewers can get a sense that we are um you know that we legitimately um care about the stuff
00:51:10
that we've talked about today and if they ever see me and want to have a chat
00:51:13
and just feel free I'm very approachable um yeah be careful be careful what you
00:51:17
throw out yeah no I mean it though honestly um you you realize that we're just we are we are not faceless
00:51:23
corporates that sit around the board table trying to find ways to pinch money out of people's pockets it's just not
00:51:27
who we are so um anyone who wants to come up and have a chat feel free oh yeah and and you guys are let's not
00:51:33
let's not forget you guys are under intense scrutiny as well of course there's people people breathing down
00:51:38
your neck right yeah yeah oh no absolutely and for good reason you know I don't I don't ever um get get
00:51:44
frustrated about that side of things I mean you have a we are given a great responsibility in New Zealand to be able
00:51:49
to sell products like that we do to the New Zealand Public should come with scrutiny and look um it absolutely does
00:51:55
and it's something that we Embrace so we just got to keep doing a good job cam
00:51:59
Roger managing director in New Zealand thank you so much for coming on the podcast no problem thanks for having me
00:52:03
Don