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Everything I did in rugby I did with honesty and believing that what I was doing was the best that I could do. And
00:00:07
that's how I would like to be remembered. Not so much by what I achieved, but what I gave. When I took
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over, I knew my first priority was we had to select the right players, but rebuild the All Black team. The aim was
00:00:20
the next World Cup. >> The 95 Rugby World Cup. >> Oh, I've never stopped thinking about
00:00:24
that. If we had won that game, I would have said that's one of the greatest sporting achievements of all time.
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There's no doubt that we were poisoned. We hired a private detective over there
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ourselves. The end result of that was at the end of that World Cup, we were very
00:00:40
happy at what we had achieved. This is what we envisioned the All Blacks playing like. We changed the way test
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rugby has played. Maybe that's a legacy I'm most proud of. This discussion we've
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had today has done me wonders. You've drawn more out of me than I think any other media person has ever done.
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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:04
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:07
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:11
Holland one in To. He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
00:01:18
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:21
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here in maximize generate. >> Putting performance first.
00:01:35
>> Lori Mains, welcome to my podcast. Well, it's pleasure to be here. >> Mate, I'm I'm kind of starruck and
00:01:41
intimidated as well. Like from what I've read about you and learned about you,
00:01:44
you're a scary dude. >> No, don't be. I'm I'm a jackal and hide.
00:01:49
really when it when I was coaching at times had to be tough and pretty direct. Uh but I'm a lot more cruisy now.
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>> Yeah. Have you mellowed with age? >> I have. Yeah, of course I have. I think
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everybody does. But I I I mean I had really good social times with the players outside the actual playing of
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the game as well. A different person. >> Yeah. How does life look? What are you
00:02:14
79? >> 79. >> You're you are aging fantastically. >> Thank you. You're you're spritly, you're
00:02:19
sharp. Um we've been chatting for 10 minutes um while we get the cameras set
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up and um you're incredibly like proud of your your legacy and your achievements still. Um what's the
00:02:30
secret? Um well, I do make sure that I eat good food and I do make sure that I keep I still do my exercises in the
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mornings and and things like that. I I look after myself because I want to live life to the maximum and then ideally I
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just drop off one night. I mean, but I want to stay healthy up until that time. >> Yeah. What does life look like now? Have
00:02:57
you got grandkids? Are you a grand? >> I've got I've got some grandkids. Um,
00:03:01
yeah, my my one of my daughters, her her and her children do a lot of fishing, and
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I'm really pleased about that because I was a fishing nutter. Trout, salmon, sea
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fishing, did it all. And and she's taken up that legacy. I never had any sons, so
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guess where all the fishing gear is going. Some of it's been dribbling up there. She she lives in uh at Manacow
00:03:25
Heads, but um some of my gear has already dribbled up there, but there'll be a lot more going soon because I don't
00:03:33
do any fishing now. Golf's what I do. You go. All right. Yeah, I'm I haven't been playing too
00:03:40
well lately. I compressed a nerve in my neck a while ago. And uh my handicap slipped out. I think I think it's about
00:03:48
8 now, but normally I sit around five or six. >> That's good going. Do you play with
00:03:55
Justin Marshall at all? That's how I got in touch with you. Justin Marshall, one
00:03:58
of your old players, gave me your number >> many years ago. Justin was a member at
00:04:02
the Hills and I do recall playing with him a couple of times back in those days, but no, no, I haven't. I've I I
00:04:10
don't think I've seen just Justin just Justin for two or three years. see him
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on television of course, but I haven't spoken to him for a while. >> Yeah, it must be a strange relationship
00:04:19
when you you you go through that intense relationship of being coach player. And
00:04:23
who who are you still friends with and who do you see on a regular basis? Oh, >> your old players.
00:04:28
>> Look, I see I see a few of them. Uh Robin Brook comes down here to play golf
00:04:33
occasionally. Uh Fitzy, we talk from time to time. Um, I'll tell you who I am
00:04:39
do see quite a bit of is both of the Barrett brothers, Bowden and Jordi. Not Scott. I haven't met him, but because a
00:04:47
lot of them come here uh for a holiday. Uh, Leon uh Leon McDonald used to be down here quite often. Um, I didn't
00:04:58
coach him but always respected him as a player. >> Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned Robin Brook
00:05:05
there. I I I got a hold of your your book which you told me you've never read. Um there's a bit in there at the
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end where you sort of it's like a nice tribute to all your players from the 90
00:05:14
fighter squad and um you Robin Brookke was there a joke in the team like people people called you dad to him like you
00:05:20
was he like the teachers pet? No, it was was he your favorite? No, it was more I
00:05:23
think it was more like that with Jamie Joseph. Um, Robin, oh, I was, look, I every player I was incredibly fond of in
00:05:33
different ways. Robin was one of those players if you felt the team was not really focused on a practice uh or by
00:05:44
Thursday I can tell whether they're in the right frame of mind for a game on
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Saturday or not. Robin was one of those I'd have a have a crack at him about it
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cuz he he just let it go off his back like water off a duck, >> but it would have an effect on the rest
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of the team. >> Yeah. Oh, so you bonded with him. >> Yeah. I know. I like I liked Rob. I
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really respected him. Not only was he a skillful rugby player, he wasn't big for
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an international lock, but he was incredibly tough >> and nobody ever got the better of him.
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That's what I and Zinny was the same. But that's what I liked about them.
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Nobody. They wouldn't let anybody get the better of them. >> Yeah. I'm so excited about this podcast.
00:06:25
There's so much to unpack and talk about. Um some of it might be a little triggering for you. By the way,
00:06:29
apologies that um just over your right hand shoulder is um a South African jersey. I hope that's a what is your
00:06:36
what is your earliest memory or memories? So, you were born in February 1946. So, you're you're officially like
00:06:41
a boomer. Like the the true definition of a like a a war a post-war baby. Were you a post-war baby or was it just
00:06:48
coincidence the timing? >> Just coincidence. I think you know my earliest memories.
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>> What's that? We >> I I lived in a street called Ryhill Street in Deneden and it was had a great
00:06:59
big wide grass verge out out in front of the house and trees planted every here and there and these were adult trees. My
00:07:08
earliest memories are kicking a rugby ball into one of those trees. I I mean I had a fascination as a kid
00:07:16
about kicking rugby balls around and um I did it in the backyard. I did it out on the street. Um was just something I
00:07:27
did and I think that is the earliest memories I've got >> and and I could hardly walk at the dock
00:07:34
probably only been 3 or 4 years old. Natural talent versus hard work. Were you natural or uh do you think just
00:07:41
having having a ball from that young age and just kicking it around everywhere you sort of you know I think I've I've
00:07:47
clearly got some good hand eye coordination and good timing but I wasn't particularly fast wasn't
00:07:54
particularly big or strong. I had to put an awful lot of hard work in. >> And yeah there's a photo here in the
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book. This is um yeah you on your test debut. >> Oh yeah. Christ Church, Lancaster Park,
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1971. >> Yeah. >> If if you Yeah. How are you the same and how are you different to that to that
00:08:13
kid? >> In terms of how how you feel now? >> Yeah. That that's hard to say. You know,
00:08:22
at that time in my life, I had one focus. No, I had two focuses. I had my family and then I had rugby. And rugby
00:08:32
dominated probably 30 40 years of my life >> and it it to the sac sacrifice of of other aspects
00:08:44
of life. >> If if you could um pick up a phone and FaceTime that 20-year-old Lori Mains
00:08:50
there, what would you say to him? >> Um what would I say? I'd I'd probably
00:08:58
tell him to keep working hard. If if if being a top rugby player for a long period of time
00:09:06
is something you really want to do, then you've got to put the hard work in. But
00:09:10
I'd have a better balance. I' I'd I'd advise him to have a really good thing
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about think about his family life, his friends, and and and life outside rugby and try and get a better balance
00:09:24
>> than I had. Why did you get the balance wrong? You from an outsers's perspective, you seem
00:09:29
you seem to you seem to have it right. You had a fantastic all black career, fantastic Otago career. You were a
00:09:35
builder. You've done well in business. You seem to navigate the amateur professional thing pretty well.
00:09:41
>> I did. Uh but I'm going to let you into something now. I I I did I I was very
00:09:47
keen fisherman and uh over summer that was I I did a lot of that while still keeping working on my overall fitness.
00:09:56
Um quite often I look back and the one of the things I regret about my rugby career because you know I had that time
00:10:06
playing but then I had another 30 years or 25 years I think it was coaching >> which was all-encompassing.
00:10:14
I've I was one of these people if I take something on then then I give it everything I've got and um just
00:10:23
hyperfixate on it. >> Yeah. and and rugby coaching was more demanding than playing uh to the
00:10:30
detriment of my daughters and and wife. Uh and it's something that I would think
00:10:37
very seriously about again before going into a prolonged coaching career like that. I'd have a really good think about
00:10:45
it >> and and make sure that's what I want to do. I was an incredibly busy person
00:10:52
starting a a business. um coaching rugby, having a family. Man, >> that's a lot. It's a lot of spades to
00:11:01
the plates to me spinning. Do you That That sounds like a regret in a way. Is that a regret?
00:11:06
>> It It It is a little bit. Um I'm very very proud of the things that I
00:11:12
did in rugby. But there are things that are more important than your own pleasure and
00:11:20
your own sport. >> And uh your family has to come first. >> Yeah. I've had Sir Peter Leech on the
00:11:28
podcast before and he's about the same age as you, maybe a year or two older.
00:11:31
And um he said the same sort of thing like he was working so hard, double jobs, like building this business that
00:11:36
he sacrificed family time. And you know, it's only when you get older that you
00:11:40
look back and you realize you can't you can't get that time back. >> Absolutely. Yeah.
00:11:45
>> And that's a regret I have. I see quite a lot of one of my daughters because she
00:11:49
lives just down the road in Alexandra. So, you know, once a Fortnite Max, she's up to spend a day with me or
00:11:57
so on. But you can't get all that time you weren't there. You can't get that
00:12:04
back. >> Yeah. I'm sure they understand. >> Yeah. And they they were proud of their
00:12:10
dad and they they if they were asked the question at the time, >> should he carry on or would you rather
00:12:16
have him around home much more? They would have probably said to me, "No, carry, we want you to carry on."
00:12:23
>> Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I >> I appreciate it. Um Okay, let's talk
00:12:27
about some fun stuff. So day for the All Blacks, 1971 against the Lions. Um let's
00:12:33
run through some first. So how do you find out you made the squad? Is there a like a possibles and probables trial? Do
00:12:38
you hear it on the radio? Do you get a phone call? >> Uh, we had trolls, but Charlie Saxton,
00:12:43
who was chairman of the New Zealand Rugby Union at the time, uh, come from Deneden, and he was a man. He was an all
00:12:53
black, a great rugby person, and he used to mentor me a bit quite often during the week. I'd wander into his shop. He
00:13:00
had a clothing men's clothing shop in Deneden and I'd wander in there and have
00:13:05
a chat to him and got a lot of very very good advice. He rang me up uh Sunday afternoon it was I remember being at
00:13:12
home was about I think 2 or 3:00 in the afternoon. What did I do as soon as I got off the phone? Picked up the boots,
00:13:22
couple of balls down to Bathgate Park and did some practice. Unbelievable. Um, and it was a stacks
00:13:31
team, right? Colin Me, Brian L'ore, Grisweily, um, Brian Williams. I think Brian Lore,
00:13:39
uh, came in for the third test. So, the first one I played in Christ Church, I don't think
00:13:46
Brian played in that. Um, Pet Peter Whiting or the other lock got injured and and they pulled Brian in, I
00:13:55
think, for the third and fourth test. M do you had you played against those guys
00:14:00
prior to that and and whatever the the equivalent of NPC was back then. What's
00:14:03
it like playing against Colin Maid? >> Absolutely terrify you just you just
00:14:09
and I was a fullback. I mean the legacy he had. I I first played against him judge I can't remember if it was an all
00:14:20
black troll now or north south game. It might have been and I just thought I don't want to get caught in the ruck or
00:14:26
the deck of with him coming in cuz he might decide seeing I'm the goal kicker
00:14:31
that he doesn't want me to carry on cuz he he wrote the forward um to your book.
00:14:36
I've got a quote here. Um because you guys ended up being you he was your manager your great friends.
00:14:41
>> Uh this is a quote. Lori is a typical New Zealander. Never flamboyant and hurt
00:14:45
terribly when his teams lost. He hurt more than any player. We'll get to that
00:14:49
later. I'd arg more than you. Um and the and he hurts most when his team failed
00:14:55
to win the Rugby World Cup. The players in turn were upset for him which was a measure of the greatness of the man.
00:15:01
>> Well, sir Colin me on you. >> Yeah, that's flattering. >> Yeah. Tree and I did get on well. And I
00:15:08
remember before we went to that World Cup, my aim was to have the All Blacks as the
00:15:16
fittest team uh at the World Cup and we had three camps, three-day camps um over
00:15:24
the summer period and they were brutal if I admit myself. And I I remember Colin and Brian both coming. Tao was the
00:15:32
one that was was legendary and they came to me and they said I don't think we've
00:15:37
ever seen any players work so hard. >> Yeah. And in what way? Cuz there was one
00:15:43
there was one here in Queenstown in 1994 and then the top one in 95. >> Yeah. Yeah. Queenstown one that was
00:15:49
gentle. That was really just a mental exercise. um explaining to the players what we were going to do over the summer
00:15:58
and setting them out in groups to give Earl and I feedback on what they felt the direction we should be going and and
00:16:07
so on. what I what I did at those camps. I mean, they they were incredibly demanding physically, but I worked so
00:16:19
hard with the forwards on the speed of clearing ball and when you when you play against teams like
00:16:27
Australia and now it's South Africa where they've got great big loose forwards who stand one off. They they
00:16:34
used to try and kill the moss, kill the rucks, have these out here. So that your
00:16:40
your inside backs who are always being taken care of by these offengway, Tim Gavin, Simon Pivan, great players and we
00:16:52
worked very hard on how do we negate them? Well, we started that to be fair. We started that back in 93 and we
00:17:01
developed a tactic called pick and go and that's where the phrase comes from.
00:17:06
But a lot of them now they're not they're not doing it right. We we used
00:17:12
to set up and you had to come in very close, pick and go very close beside the ruck so that those players had to come
00:17:20
in and engage. This oneoff passing and running into people not achieving anything. You see 18 phases and nobody's
00:17:28
any further ahead than they were. And it was the way we used to clean out quite often if the and and and I taught the
00:17:37
guys the sort of rucks to identify where you could go in tight and then split it
00:17:43
open then about the fifth player could come through pick it up and go straight through the middle. These are the sort
00:17:49
of things that need to happen today. But you know the referee's just let everybody go to ground. You're not meant
00:17:55
to go to ground on top of the ball in rugby, but everybody's doing it to secure their own ball. They go over the
00:18:02
top of their own player on top of the ball so nobody can get anywhere near it. Well, yeah, that makes it a bit
00:18:09
difficult, but some of the things we worked on would still apply. And you know, I'm
00:18:17
make I make uh no apologies for it. I I I don't think some of the coaches are
00:18:22
thinking hard enough about how to break down this close in defense systems. >> Jess, you're still passionate and
00:18:32
engaged about the game, aren't you? Um we're recording this on a Monday morning. Um yesterday morning the All
00:18:38
Blacks played Argentina. You get up early to watch these games. >> Of course.
00:18:42
>> Yeah. And you shouting at the TV or >> No, no, I'm not. No, no. And I never
00:18:46
invite someone round to my house who I know is going to have a comment on everything. I I like to concentrate. I
00:18:54
I'll mutter plenty to myself and uh I mean you see things you think the referees are getting wrong,
00:19:02
>> you know, the players are not doing right, but I keep it to myself. Yeah.
00:19:06
>> I I had a few more questions about your your your playing days and then then we
00:19:09
can move on to the coaching thing. But we we can since we're on the coaching
00:19:12
thing, we can we can stick on that. Or do you want to Doesn't bother me. >> Okay. Yeah. Best and worst moments is an
00:19:18
all lag. >> Wow. Yeah. Do you know um I came in after I came in after uh the All Blacks had
00:19:32
lost the first test to the Lions in 71 and and that was a great Lions team. There's no denying that. Second test in
00:19:40
Christ Church we won it and won it quite comfortably and Kpatrick Ian Kpatrick scored the try from the other end of the
00:19:47
earth. Um was fabulous try 55 m I think he ran pushing people off left, right and center. Um and we deserve to win
00:19:57
that. Then we played at Wellington and that was my worst memory that the team could not
00:20:07
well there was two I'll start in the buildup. We had training and for some reason or
00:20:12
other Ivan Vdanovich thought must have thought we weren't fit enough and he thought he could get us fit on Thursday
00:20:18
and we went to his old schools and the the mud was about 6 in deep and round and round and round this paddock we ran
00:20:25
for half an hour. Well, pretty much all of the team could hardly walk the next day. And and to be fair, we took the
00:20:34
field not in very good physical shape at all. Legs, muscles, tight, sore muscles.
00:20:41
Um I think I scored the only try for the All Blacks in that game, but I missed a
00:20:45
simple kick. I I I think I scored about 15 m to the right of the uprightes and then missed the conversion.
00:20:54
Uh that was probably my biggest disappointment because the All Blacks that day could not be sharp and
00:21:02
aggressive and so on because of what we'd been through on that muddy ground on the Thursday.
00:21:08
>> Who who did better um after match strengs, All Blacks of the 70s or All
00:21:12
Blacks of the '90s? >> 90s. Really? Really? We >> we had a beer sponsor that was uh battle
00:21:25
one. >> Well, Kevin Robertson, he was a great friend of the team uh from New Zealand
00:21:31
Breweries and uh he he used to make sure we were well stocked up. But when I say
00:21:38
the '9s, um, the boys could handle it. And they only like if you were playing
00:21:47
the following Tuesday, if we're on tour, for example, and you were playing the
00:21:50
following Tuesday, no, they the judges in the courtrooms weren't allowed court sessions weren't
00:21:57
allowed to pick on you. >> But if you had played and uh there was some funny moments or whatever, you got
00:22:04
a hammering. Mhm. >> But uh I mean I that that was one place where I had no protection. So I used to
00:22:12
get my share of punishment as well and I think the players appreciated that. I never outside
00:22:19
formal team stuff. I never pulled rank. >> I as far as I was concerned I was just
00:22:25
one of the boys and had to comply the same as them. But you know whatever. >> And I think the players appreciated that
00:22:33
also. Yeah. So, you took over in uh 1991 after um Chris Wy and and John Hart failed to win the Rugby World Cup. Um
00:22:42
what was your goal then when you took over? What were you going to do differently?
00:22:46
>> Well, the first thing was that the team had to be rebuilt because unfortunately for Alex, those players he
00:22:55
had built a hell of a strong team and a hell of an impressive record. And by the
00:23:00
time that 91 World Cup came around, they were just falling. Many of them were falling off the other side
00:23:07
>> and they didn't quite have and and there was I don't know there seemed to be a bit of
00:23:13
an Oakland Canterbury conflict in the in in that All Blackton uh team in 91. But but those players
00:23:22
were were going off the off the good side. So when I took over, I knew my first priority was we had to select the
00:23:33
right players but rebuild the all black team. So we took a big punt. We there was quite a few of those older players
00:23:41
we left out in in ' 92 and some of them like Sir Foxy um and um Steve Mcdal and
00:23:51
players like that we kept in >> because you know to take advantage of their experience and Foxy is a great
00:23:58
team man and and so was Steve Mcdal. they wanted to help the players around them and so
00:24:06
that the aim was uh and and uh the aim was the next World Cup. It wasn't this
00:24:15
year. We had to try and maintain the pride of the All Blacks in winning games, but we had three years or or I
00:24:24
gave myself two and a half years to rebuild that team and and we struggled with some positions.
00:24:32
Couldn't settle on a 5'8 first 58 after Foxy. and nobody was sort of standing up
00:24:38
and then at the last minute who comes along Andrew Mertton >> you know um there was there was things
00:24:45
like that but that happened we we had the same problem with fullback we we tried a few they didn't
00:24:53
they didn't take the elevation up to test level as well as we'd hoped they
00:24:58
would and then Glenn Osman turned up you know the year before so we were lucky from that perspective
00:25:06
And um they all and and Jonah of course >> not we we now this is an interesting one
00:25:13
cuz we I was told about Jonah by uh a gentleman by the name of De Smith who was manager
00:25:20
for the New Zealand secondary school ste and he said you got to have a look at this kid he's uh 18 now he's just
00:25:29
phenomenal rugby player. So Earl and I went off to um where was it? Pokawia it might have been
00:25:37
the sevens tournament that year he was playing and we looked at each other after we'd seen him in a couple of games
00:25:44
and I said to what are you thinking? He said I reckon I'm thinking the same as
00:25:48
you. I said wing? He said yes. Not a number eight. And here was the reasoning. He had this incredible talent
00:25:59
which we all know about but atund I think he was about 110 kgs at that stage but so were so was Tim Gavin and so was
00:26:09
Willie Offengway and so was Rodba from England and England was one of the teams >> we specifically feared in that coming
00:26:19
into that World Cup and we had a bit of payback for them so we said he's not
00:26:23
going to be able to give us that magic as a lose forward. So, let we've got two
00:26:28
years to make a wing out of him. And boy, he he he did some very good things in 94 with a
00:26:39
ball in hand. Come 95, I said to him, you can go and play in the sevens. I'd like you to go and play
00:26:49
in the sevens. Now, there's two reasons for that. Uh we knew he'd get fit
00:26:54
playing sevens. very very fit cuz the seventh coach at that time was really tough.
00:26:59
>> Titch a titch and I think he was harder on the players than I was and that's
00:27:03
saying something about fitness but he was ruthless so and he he would work on those B ball skills that Jonah needed.
00:27:14
He thought we'd basically left him out of the All Blacks. So no way. And um who
00:27:22
did I get? Might have been Rushy. I got to have a word to him and say, "You you
00:27:26
encourage him just to keep going, Russia. We're not We still want him. We just This Sevens is all about making you
00:27:33
a better player." So anyway, he he stuck in there. Came down to Deneden and
00:27:38
played in a North South game and just ripped it apart. And he he it was like being in that sevens and then coming
00:27:47
back to 15s. He realized what his role was as a wing. and uh well the rest is history.
00:27:54
>> Yeah. And from you've dropped some amazing names in just in that last
00:27:58
answer. Um you know Osborne Merens Lomu how does um a a 50 whatever year old you
00:28:06
know Caucasian man from Otago jail or connect with like an 18year-old South Oakland tongen 46 please
00:28:14
I think oh late 40s. Um my bad. Uh well, because I'd been involved like I had an incredibly successful
00:28:26
three years with my club team, >> we we won the uh it target competition three years in a row and I don't I think
00:28:34
in the in the second two years I think we only lost one goat and so I've gone
00:28:41
from player to a year as an assistant coach then the coach and I'm dealing with many of the
00:28:48
same players. players that I actually played with. And then I then I moved on to At Targetago and um
00:28:57
I I think there's something I might just throw in here. >> After two years with Southern I was
00:29:03
invited to be the assistant coach with a target. Now the coach at the time and there's no don't want any names but the
00:29:09
coach at the time had a different philosophy on how the game should be played than I did. So I said to the
00:29:16
chairman of the Itago Rugby Union, "Look, it's no there's no point. I mean,
00:29:21
I'm going to say what I think and it's going to be at odds with the coach. It'd
00:29:27
be better if I, you know, get someone that'll work better with him on that. I
00:29:31
I' I'd work with him, but I'd have my say as well." So I actually turned that down. And then
00:29:40
the following year uh the chairman came back to me and he said well well we'd
00:29:45
like to make you coach this year will you go for that and I said absolutely. >> I said I've done my three years at my
00:29:51
club got some success I need another challenge. >> So uh that's how and and so that kept me
00:30:00
you know I I because I was coaching all the way through till the time I got the All Blacks. Of course I could relate to
00:30:08
those younger players because I never got out of the habit of doing it. >> Yeah, I'm thinking like different
00:30:14
personality types as well like you mentioned um you know Glenn Osborne and Andrew Merens like they No, they were
00:30:19
pranksters. They were Americans, right? >> Yeah. Lara, did you um Yeah. Did you
00:30:23
enjoy that or did you find that tiresome? No. Loved it. >> And uh John Timmy was another one. and
00:30:29
and Mark Ellis, I tell you that they here we'd be building up to a test match
00:30:35
and those two would be competing against each other doing 100 press ups or whatever, you know. And I said, "Listen,
00:30:42
guys, save that for Sundays and Mondays. Don't you doing it on Thursdays when we
00:30:48
got a big test match coming up?" Well, one day we had a test match in Deneden
00:30:53
and I see Alice towards the end of practice. I see Alice and Timu. We're down at uh Logan Park and I see them
00:31:01
disappearing around behind the university club pavilions there and I just knew what was going to be going on
00:31:07
and I thought, "Oh no, I'm not going to go round." Well, when they come back, I said, "How
00:31:12
many?" And you you just even though I felt that it probably wasn't best for them to be
00:31:22
doing that that that was those guys and they had to be able to do it. Fitzy understood Sean Fitzpatrick understood
00:31:30
me very well. So so did a few of the senior players, Zinny and so on and and they
00:31:37
they sort of they were the conduit between me and and the the younger players and I think they were the ones
00:31:46
that said don't don't be frightened of Lori be frightened of them at practice
00:31:51
because you do something wrong you'll pay but you know have a beer with them
00:31:56
and so on and and I got on I got on pretty well I think within players out outside of the official part of being
00:32:05
>> Yeah. Um, speaking of Mark Ellis, um, there's a story I've heard that at the
00:32:09
95 World Cup where he played against Japan and scored six tries, which is still really to this day. Did you tear
00:32:14
him a new one for that? >> No. I I thought I thought you I thought I heard him in a podcast saying you like
00:32:20
you told him off like for being selfish or Yeah. Yeah. But that was a joke. There there was a couple of if you have
00:32:29
a look at that and as a matter of fact where was it not that long ago was on TV those six tries and there were two times
00:32:38
where he beat people that he if if that their fullback had been a bit sharper he
00:32:44
would have tackled him when he had a a man running free outside him. So uh I think I did say something to him about
00:32:54
that but but it was joking. I also congratulated him on, you know, breaking a he was sensational on his
00:33:01
feet that day. >> He was good. Um, a previous podcast guest is um Rick Citizo who was your
00:33:07
first media liaison officer. Um, he told a story, I forget the whole backstory, but had done something to piss you off
00:33:13
when he was a journalist. Like he stitched you up and he admitted he stitched you up and then he got given
00:33:17
the All Black the All Black's very first ever media leazison job without you
00:33:22
without being run past you. Um, and according to him, um, you you hop on the team bus and he's sitting there and you
00:33:29
turn to, I think Fitzy or JK and you say, "What's that prick doing on the
00:33:32
bus?" >> Does that sound right? >> Yeah, that sounds about right.
00:33:36
>> Yeah. And then, um, uh, yeah, according to Rick, uh, JK and Fitzy said to him,
00:33:41
um, uh, Lori doesn't have to like you, but do a great job and he'll learn to
00:33:44
respect you. >> Yeah, I got to like Rick. Um, you know, it's it's some of these journos. I I I
00:33:53
don't want to have a general crack at jouos, but some of them know they're
00:33:57
being dishonest when they write [ __ ] And that that was the bit that annoyed me. If if if they're prepared to do
00:34:05
that, well, what are they prepared to do in ordinary life when they're not writing? Rick was an exception. He
00:34:13
turned out uh to be a confidant of mine. Uh, I think he did that job extremely well and and he often forewarned me
00:34:23
about what was going to be coming. I I And I like Rick and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Oh, he won you over, eh?
00:34:31
>> Yeah, he did. >> He He chipped away. Yeah. Okay. So, um, the 90 1995 Rugby World Cup.
00:34:37
>> Now, I just want to make a point. That's an example of if a senior player comes
00:34:42
to me with a reasonable thing to say, I'll take notice of it. And and that's
00:34:49
an example of it. >> Yeah. I Yeah. Speaking of um Yes. So, we mentioned um JK just then, Sir John
00:34:56
Kerwin. Um Sir Michael Jones is another one. The these these are like legendary All Blacks and they're careers that you
00:35:03
had to had to end. How's how's that like how are those conversations? Uh they're
00:35:09
incredibly difficult. I didn't not with Michael Jones. I didn't end his career.
00:35:14
He he was I think there was a problem with South Africa because he couldn't play on
00:35:20
Sundays and we had a couple of Sunday games. Um he he is a fabulous guy. Uh Michael and
00:35:27
I him and I got on very well together and I he was a he was a player that I quite often talk to. How do I talk to
00:35:34
Inger about this? you know, the the the the other island boys who who are very respectful of authority and you you've
00:35:44
just got to be careful how you talk to them so you don't do any damage. >> And and Michael was a big help to me and
00:35:51
quite often I'd ask him to go and have a chat to so and so about something. Um
00:35:58
JK uh great player and I you know I so respected him as a player and he he I can't remember the exact circumstances
00:36:09
now but I I think he was I think he was ready to retire anyway. Um, was the same with Foxy, you know, it
00:36:18
it it was a very I asked Foxy how keen he was to go on the Northern Tour at the end of 93
00:36:29
and um he wasn't that keen. He was building a business and and and we sort of mutually agreed then it's probably
00:36:38
the right time for him to end his all black career. >> Great great All black as he was. Both of
00:36:44
them were great. Yeah. >> Yeah. These things like I'm um I'm just intrigued by this stuff because in my in
00:36:49
my own private life, I actively avoid and put off tough conversations. When you're in a position like that, you're
00:36:54
forced to have these tough conversations week in week out. >> Yeah. I just wonder how you go about
00:36:59
that. They they're always done face to face or they done over the phone. >> No, I don't don't like phone calls. Um,
00:37:05
sometimes you had to uh it's it's it's best like 99% of rugby players are very very
00:37:16
honest. They're they're self-critical. They know their own failings and when
00:37:22
you come to have a conversation like that, they're probably half by expecting
00:37:26
it >> and uh they respect the fact that you front up and tell them face to face. M
00:37:35
>> yeah Ian Foster in his book he talks about um having a conversation like this
00:37:39
with Dane Coohl's at the at the what was it the 2019 oh no maybe the 2023 World
00:37:45
Cup telling him he wasn't required for the semi and the final um and he he said
00:37:49
he got emotional and quite tearful in that occasion. Were you were you quite emotional about it or
00:37:55
>> of course I know having played so much top level rugby myself um you know what it feels like
00:38:06
and uh it was in incredibly difficult for me to give players tough messages >> not not just to say look you're no
00:38:16
longer required but even tough messages around what they've got to do in the
00:38:20
team. M >> um I you know from time to time and and sometimes you had to do it uh a a player
00:38:30
would let himself down or the team down or whatever and you pick your times to do it when the when you want your team
00:38:38
to switch on and start building for the Saturday right the team meeting you have
00:38:43
before you go to that practice is the time to sort a couple of guys out if they needed it. I'd never do it in an
00:38:52
unfair way. It had to be fair criticism, but I was capable of being pretty blunt
00:38:58
with the players. And it just sort of shocked many of the other guys that Right, we better switch on now. He's in
00:39:05
one of those moods. So, we don't want to get his Roth out on the training field
00:39:10
>> and uh don't poke the beer. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. So, um the 1995 Rugby World Cup.
00:39:17
>> Look, if I could just add to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. I don't think today if
00:39:21
I c if I was starting a coaching career today I'd be different >> because people have changed and I I
00:39:30
think some of the methods I used maybe wouldn't be that well accepted by some players today
00:39:38
>> like yeah under under today's lens could potentially be called bullying or
00:39:42
whatever there's there's more of an emphasis these days on like vulnerability and uh
00:39:47
>> you know um duty of here and things things like that. But from what you were
00:39:50
explaining about the way you handled it, it sounded like you were you were doing
00:39:53
that. >> Yeah, I was always very mindful of the players and the ones I picked on um you
00:40:00
know, Steve H. Hotton was one I got to tell you this story cuz this is good. Steve Hton was one quite often I'd pick
00:40:06
on. He he was a good rugby player in my targetago team, but occasionally he wouldn't be switched on. He have a
00:40:13
pretty average game. So he knew if he had one of those days that he was going to turn up to Tuesday's practice or
00:40:21
Monday, whenever it was and life was going to be pretty tough for him. Well, I come into Caris one day where we used
00:40:29
to change and go over to Bathgate Park. Come in there and Steve comes up to me and he said, "Uh,
00:40:37
Lori, I I've been advised to miss training today. I've got very bad bruising on my ankle." and he pulls up
00:40:44
his trousers and his ankle's all blue up all around his ankle, you know. I said,
00:40:50
"Oh, okay, Steve. Um, hang on a minute. Just sit down over there." Ballpoint pen.
00:41:00
It's smudged it all over his ankle cuz he cuz he knew what was coming. >> Oh, that's hilarious. Oh my god, that's
00:41:09
so embarrassing. Being caught out. Yeah, being caught out was a was the big thing. Yeah.
00:41:14
>> So, um the 95 Rugby World Cup, uh this is like career defining in a way. Um
00:41:19
yeah, the I think it was June this year was the 30th anniversary. How was that for you?
00:41:25
How often one of my early podcast guests was Shane Cameron and he he talked about his fight
00:41:30
with David to where he got knocked out badly like I think in the first or second round and he said um every day
00:41:36
for at least seven years afterwards he thought about it. Oh, I've never stopped
00:41:40
thinking about that. And it it's not that we lost. >> It was a great game, mate.
00:41:46
>> It's not even how we lost. >> Um I'll still maintain that Jonah would
00:41:51
have scored a try when he got pulled back for a forward pass. It wasn't a forward pass. Was close enough to that
00:41:57
22 m line. You know, when you study it on TV, >> certainly wouldn't have been called back
00:42:02
today. But however, having said that, um we we went through that World Cup with some incredible stats and incredible
00:42:12
performances. I mean, look what we did to England, you know, and Scotland. We won the Grand Slam there easily. Big, we
00:42:20
played Ireland first, then Wales, then Scotland, then England, and uh that was a real cleanup, particularly England. Um
00:42:32
and and we were all set to go like for that final and as was tradition, we'd leave the team to
00:42:41
their devices on a Thursday and the management would go out to a restaurant somewhere for for dinner. Well, we did
00:42:50
that. We came back in and come back into the hotel. Standing by reception was Zinzam Brooke.
00:42:59
And the minute I saw him, I turned to Colin. I said, "There's problems."
00:43:04
And he said, "Oh, half the team are up in the doc's room vomiting and they're
00:43:09
sick as hell." And if and and when we went, we normally went and had a a a little bit of a captain's run on a
00:43:19
Friday, the day before the game at the venue we were going to be playing in. We went out there and I I said to uh the
00:43:27
boys, look, we're not going to run. We'll walk around the park and talk about what our options are from the
00:43:34
various positions that uh you know, because we're playing South Africa, we'd
00:43:39
have specific tactics for them. And um after about quarter of an hour, I just gave up
00:43:46
>> because the players couldn't concentrate. And I knew we were in real trouble. And
00:43:51
I said to Brian Lo, who was our campaign manager there, I said, "Would we have
00:43:55
any show getting this delayed till Sunday?" He said, "No, too too much disruption to everything."
00:44:06
>> And he said, "I don't I think we'll try and keep just keep it quiet." M so that
00:44:13
you you asked me what was one of the worst moments in my playing career. Well now the worst moment in my coaching
00:44:20
career was seeing that team go out and play knowing that they probably couldn't
00:44:25
give better than 85% because of what they'd been through. Now there was three naughty boys.
00:44:35
uh Rush, Eric Rush, I think Josh Crofeld, someone else who who didn't have the tea and coffee. They
00:44:48
went out and ate, I think they had McDonald's or something like that on the Thursday night and uh
00:44:58
and so they weren't sick. >> Amazing. Amazing. and and and I think Fitzy because he had uh Fitzy might have
00:45:08
had media commitments or something before dinner and by the time he came and had dinner, it
00:45:16
was a fresh batch of tea and coffee that was put out. I'm convinced it was that
00:45:21
first batch of tea and coffee that >> had been poisoned >> cuz it's one of the one of the great
00:45:26
sort of um Kiwi sporting folk laws folklore things. It's sort of up there with um Chapel's underarm bowl to
00:45:32
Mcknney and cricket in 80 or 81 or whatever it was. Do is there a Suzie? Was there like an intentional food
00:45:39
poison? No. Let me tell you the real. Yes, there was the there there's no doubt that we were poisoned. Now, I'm
00:45:46
going to tell you a story and and this confirmed it for me. Ion Edgar uh who who was a great rugby follower
00:45:56
and and supported me all the way through my rugby career, coaching career. We were having at a dinner for something
00:46:06
target sportsman of the year or something like that in Deneden and he had just come back from the UK. This is
00:46:11
after the World Cup. And as soon as I walked in, he came up to me and he said, "Uh, I got something
00:46:19
that is informative for you." And I said, "Yeah, what's that, Eon?" He said,
00:46:23
"The word in financial circles in London is that the bookies arrange for your food poisoning."
00:46:36
Now the New Zealand Rugby Union weren't prepared to do anything about it. Richie
00:46:41
Guy was chairman and I understood the reasons. So my wife was South African. So we hired a private detective over there
00:46:52
ourselves and asked him to go and find out uh if he could what had happened. And the the end result of that was that
00:47:06
uh there was a waitress that was employed on the Wednesday and and after Thursday she just
00:47:17
disappeared completely from the job from the hotel where she had a permanent job.
00:47:25
and the the private detective and and the other staff were pretty convinced that
00:47:33
if something was done that that she had probably done it. And there's two theories on what it could be. Uh it
00:47:40
could have been a a a chemical thing, but there was a an argument that it was probably a biological a a wild plant in
00:47:49
South Africa. I've forgotten the name of it. uh if it's put in with your tea
00:47:54
leaves and that sort of thing, it it can lead to this sort of poisoning, food poisoning.
00:47:59
And he said she had a name like Suki Su Soi Suzi, something like that. He said, you know, the black. Now, I was
00:48:12
silly enough to mention that to Bob H when he wrote this book. And and so that's where the Suzie came from.
00:48:22
Um and and I said to him it was it was only you know a name something like that. I
00:48:29
didn't say susie was a name or to hell I never said anything to him about it.
00:48:34
>> Yeah. All all things considered it was a a hell of a final though. Right. 80
00:48:37
minutes not enough to separate the two best teams in the world and then 20 minutes of of extra time. But do you do
00:48:43
you do you ever put much thought into like how different life would look now if the outcome had been different? Like
00:48:47
you'd be a sir. No doubt. >> Yeah. that wouldn't bother me. Um, uh,
00:48:57
I don't know. You see, life probably would have been different for a few years after it, but I've I
00:49:06
very rarely go to All Black reunions. I I've step right away from that sort of
00:49:14
life now. And uh I don't I don't I don't think it I don't think what I'm doing
00:49:20
now would be any different. >> And and I sort of I'd rather not people
00:49:25
talk to me about when when I'm playing golf or things like that. I don't want
00:49:30
people telling me, "Oh, you had a great career. You did this. You did that or
00:49:34
anything. I just want to be treated as a normal person." And um and I'm lucky because uh you know
00:49:42
at Milbrook and it was the same at the Hills was only very occasionally someone would ask a polite question you know
00:49:49
about about something and if if people if people would ask me what was my opinion of the All Blacks on Saturday.
00:49:56
Yes, of course I'll give an opinion >> but I don't really want to talk about my
00:50:01
past my career. But but having said that, I'm I'm very proud of some of the things I achieved
00:50:09
as a as a player and as a coach. Oh, one one thing we we've learned. So 95 was
00:50:14
only the third ever Rugby World Cup. So we I don't think we had an appreciation
00:50:18
even back then about how bloody hard these things are to win. So I mean finishing finishing second in extra time
00:50:24
with um you know food poisoning is um yeah. What was the reaction like when you came back? I've had Hardy on the
00:50:30
podcast and he had a terrible time after 99 and spiral into a deep depression after the public backlash. But were were
00:50:38
the public more sympathetic with you because it was such a good tournament? >> Yeah. No, they were. And I believe that
00:50:43
the public I I had no negative backlash whatsoever. And I think uh the public realized I
00:50:51
mean when you see Craig Dow and Jeff Wilson vomiting on the side of the field >> it's only someone like Keith Quinn that
00:51:00
would say the story was made up. Um you know that that I found unbelievable that
00:51:08
>> did he did he say it was made up? >> He said that publicly. Yes. Um,
00:51:13
I I I think uh I think people were incredibly sympathetic and they believed that we
00:51:23
were the best team at the World Cup anyway. I mean, Andrew Mertens had a fantastic tournament. He missed a drop
00:51:31
goal just before the end of full time. Uh missed by about two feet. uh and then their first 58
00:51:44
he gets one and uh in extra time. So it's just the way it is. >> We if if we had won that game I would
00:51:55
have said that's one of the greatest sporting achievements of all time given
00:51:59
the circumstances that faced those those blacks. Did you did you um get to rub shoulders
00:52:07
or have anything to do with um Nelson Mandela at that time? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, in '92 I did. Uh he
00:52:12
he it was first year on uh uh that he was president I think and that that's what our tour was about.
00:52:22
>> Um oh lovely lovely man >> was he? And and I I did I was at one dinner that he was at in 95 as well and
00:52:32
he made a point of coming to talk to me which I thought was really nice. Um >> yeah, lovely person.
00:52:39
>> Yeah, >> one of those people that just has an aura about him when you meet him.
00:52:42
>> Yes, definitely. And you know, when you when you meet him and you see him like
00:52:47
that and and you hear him speaking, you can probably see why he survived imprisonment and came out without any
00:52:55
bitter feelings. He you know, he he he was fantastic. >> Oh, awesome. And were you happy with the
00:53:04
the actor who was cast to play you in the Invictus movie? I haven't seen it.
00:53:09
>> What? How have you not? Well, are you not curious to see to see what >> the act of I saw shorts of it somewhere
00:53:17
and I I Yeah. No. >> Well, you got no desire to watch it because you know how the movie ends or
00:53:24
>> I would have had trouble believing uh that it was a true um a true account of of what happened.
00:53:35
And so I didn't want to get infuriated by going to see someone's twisted version.
00:53:41
>> Yeah. >> So the the locker room after that 95 World Cup final, what what's that like?
00:53:46
What's your I mean you're you're disappointed. You're hurting as much as
00:53:48
the team, but do you flip into like cheerleader mode or like supportive dad mode?
00:53:55
>> More supportive. >> Um and Colin Me was very very good with the guys.
00:54:02
>> Yeah. Uh they, you know, of all the games we played, they probably played their heart out
00:54:09
more in that final than any of the others. >> Uh there was just a limit as to how much
00:54:15
they could give, you know. Yeah, it's >> Yeah, I I I still feel so sorry for those players
00:54:26
whenever this is talked about. Uh I hurt for those players. cuz they're the ones that actually I
00:54:35
mean we all had the illness. I had it. >> Colin and Brian uh had it. Colin was
00:54:41
pretty badly affected. Um but we we we we all like I in particular felt sorry for the
00:54:51
players that had to go out on the field knowing they couldn't do what they were
00:54:56
doing a week earlier. >> Yeah. Would you would you have wanted to carry on as coach after that tournament
00:55:02
or was it was it just not an option? That was a time where you get one crack at the World Cup and if you don't win
00:55:06
you're you're out. Well, Colin thought he could fix that. Colin thought I could
00:55:10
get reappointed. >> And I said to him, I look, I'm mentally drained. If I could have a year off and
00:55:19
then come back, I'd possibly do that. Um, but I I I was drained and I realized I
00:55:28
just had to get on with the next stage in my life. >> Did Yeah. That was the year it went um
00:55:35
from amateur to professional. Right. >> Yeah. But I want to make another point
00:55:39
here. When I coached, I always coached the forwards because I I always right from
00:55:46
back in my club days, I coached forwards because if they didn't do it right, then
00:55:51
you never had a game. Might as well not have had a backline. Um coached the backs
00:55:58
and we had a fitness trainer. We didn't have 20 other coaches floating around the team like they do these days.
00:56:07
So we Earl and I obviously were under far more pressure >> than what coaches are today because of
00:56:16
we had to do all the work. We could call on a scrum coach if we needed to. We could call on a um
00:56:24
I I remember calling Andy Aiden and in one test buildup to sort out a line out problem or to give us some ideas on a
00:56:33
line out problem. So, uh, but by and large we were the coaches. >> You got a lot done, didn't you?
00:56:42
>> We did get a lot done. >> Did you Did you um cuz you sort of missed the whole professional thing. Did
00:56:46
you financially did you do okay out of the game? >> No. >> No. So, just huge amount of sacrifice
00:56:50
putting your career. And >> Louis Lake paid me okay when I when I went and coached the Lions in South
00:56:58
Africa. Uh but uh and then I had those two years coaching the Highlanders, but you know
00:57:08
that that was pretty small money really. >> Um no, I never made much money out of
00:57:15
rugby at all. >> But I'll say this, rugby definitely opened the door for me in business and
00:57:22
and things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So 2001 you move over to South Africa um to coach the cats. What
00:57:27
what's that like? That was a dangerous place then, right? Did you Did you feel
00:57:30
it? The security aspect >> where they uh the flat they put me in was a pretty safe area. And you know, I
00:57:41
was well advised what not to do and what and and where not to go. So I I never I
00:57:48
never saw any violence. I never felt any pressure at any time. Never felt. But I made sure I wasn't out at night on
00:57:58
the streets or anything like that. >> Um, and uh, there was several of the players
00:58:05
in the same complex that that I was staying in. Uh, so no, no, no, it it was good. By and large, I enjoyed my time
00:58:16
over there. It was it was interesting. was a challenge to uh coach a nationality that I' not had any
00:58:25
experience with and they think differently to us about rugby and so on and so forth. They very quickly the team
00:58:35
I had for the Curry Cup which which we won. They very quickly uh uh fitted into the way I coached
00:58:45
>> and enjoyed it >> and loved it. And I still hear, believe it or not, I still hear from time to
00:58:50
time from some of those players. You remember Dean Hall, he he was a wing for South Africa. He went on, I picked him
00:58:56
up as about a 19year-old, promoted him to Curry Cup Rugby. He's a big strong
00:59:02
lad for a wing. Great player. Then he obviously went on to become a a very good spring. Um, lo and behold, he
00:59:10
WhatsApp me oh would have been month ago probably >> see how I was getting on and
00:59:16
>> tennisport is another one I'd heard from and um yeah I suppose the nature of the
00:59:22
job like you're not going to be mates with everyone there are going to be personality clashes and there's you
00:59:26
haven't read your own book so I'm guessing you haven't read the um Rasi
00:59:29
Arasimus book >> no I've got I've got I've got a quote here from from that book he said um I I
00:59:37
learned I I learned from the mistakes both of us made. I won't have players who behave as badly as I did feeling
00:59:42
entitled just because they're playing well. Um how Lori coached and analyzed
00:59:46
is exactly how I don't want to be as a coach. Um yes, he's admitting some of
00:59:50
his own mistakes. But yeah, is that hard when there's like personality clashes
00:59:55
with players, players that you just don't gel with? Well, it's funny he says
00:59:59
that because Andre Fenta, who was a great all black, uh I was talking to him one day and he
01:00:06
said, "Russy's doing exactly what you did that he hated to do and he refused
01:00:11
to do. He's doing it with his players." So, you can take that comment for what
01:00:17
it's worth. >> Yeah. Um the only reason I had conflict with Russy, it wasn't about rugby
01:00:24
issues. Uh it was that he didn't want to train. >> And if I'd let he he maybe he kept
01:00:32
himself fit, I don't know. But if I'd let the whole team be as slack as he
01:00:37
wanted to be wanted to be, there's no way we would have won games. There's a lot of those players were big
01:00:45
South Africans like you see and you you've got to work hard to get them fit enough.
01:00:50
>> And and it's, you know, uh yeah. It's um Yeah. It must be hard when when
01:00:57
there's players that you've had like a falling out with to write about you in a
01:00:59
book and it's like, you know, it's a free hit really. There's nothing you can
01:01:03
do to defend yourself. >> No. Well, >> does it not bother you? >> Not coming from him because he's not a
01:01:10
No, seriously, he's a he he is a very dishonest person >> and I'm not going to get into it now,
01:01:15
but he he had a lot of >> personal failings >> in his social life and that sort of
01:01:21
thing. Um but it it it no it doesn't bother me coming from you. >> Yeah. Uh there was I didn't know
01:01:30
anything about this but um researching this chat um so you came back and you're
01:01:35
coaching um the the Highlanders. Um did you and Anton have there was some falling out with Anton?
01:01:41
>> Oh yeah. Well it's it's another example of uh a player wanted wanting to do it his
01:01:51
way. Now, this is where I suddenly was starting to realize, and I made a comment right at the start of this
01:01:58
interview, if I if I coach now, I' i'd probably have to be a little bit different
01:02:04
uh and tolerant with players and than I was in uh when I coached. Anton was another player that didn't like being
01:02:13
told what to do. And yes, we had differences of opinion on certain things. Um, yeah. I I didn't realize it was such a
01:02:27
big issue with him. He never he never This is the bit that disappointed me. He never came to me and said, "I disagree
01:02:36
with this or this or this. Instead, he worked behind my back, which was not so good."
01:02:43
>> Yeah. Dishonest. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did Did your leadership style evolve
01:02:48
over the years? uh it did but mainly mainly through learning what worked and what didn't
01:02:56
work and so one of one of the I mean in my early years coaching my club team and coaching at Targetago because I had
01:03:08
played an awful lot more rugby than those guys any of them probably knew quite a lot more about rugby than they
01:03:16
did and what works and what doesn't work. I was pretty dictatorial. But by the time I got to the All Blacks,
01:03:24
uh I was regularly talking with people like Frank Bunts and Fitzy and I Jones and and the Brook Brothers, quite a few.
01:03:35
It's hard to mention all of them. um about what we should do and and and it come brings me back to the camp that
01:03:44
we had here in Queenstown where I sent the players away and said right you guys go and have an open
01:03:51
discussion without me and then I'd set up a subcommittee of the senior players
01:03:57
could come back to me and report and I don't want to know who said what. I just
01:04:02
want to know the content of of what was said. When it all boiled down, I I looked at Earl and Earl and I looked at
01:04:10
each other and smiled. Well, guys, got to tell you what we've been doing subliminally
01:04:17
has really got through to you guys cuz that's exactly what Earl and I are wanting to do with this team. We didn't
01:04:24
want to show the rest of the world how the All Blacks were going to play at the World Cup. We did a lot of preparation
01:04:31
stuff and something that worked and I mentioned that game against Australia at Carisbrook in 93 with a pick and go.
01:04:40
Well, in the way we cleaned out, we didn't do that anymore. M >> so that if because if we did it once,
01:04:50
you know, other coaches and that might not pick up on it, but if we went started, it became a part of our game
01:04:57
plan and they'd work out a way to stop it. >> So that so what they came back to us
01:05:03
with was exactly the way we wanted to play the game. That's got to be a hard thing to keep up
01:05:09
your sleeve as an all black coach, especially um Yeah, because there's an expectation to win the World Cup, but
01:05:14
there's also an expectation to win every damn game along the way. >> Yeah. Well,
01:05:20
yeah, but at that stage, I think we're into about was that about the third or
01:05:25
fourth World Cup that had been played. It it it appeared to us with what had happened under with Alex. Um it appeared
01:05:35
to us that we had to be prepared to sacrifice some performances early on to get the
01:05:43
right players involved and get enough experience under their belt >> at that level to be able to give us
01:05:50
their best at the World Cup. >> And that is in fact what happened. I couldn't if I when I look back and if
01:05:57
you just take the final out because of the way the players were, but you look at all of the other games at the World
01:06:03
Cup, if you'd told me three years earlier, this is the way the team's going to end
01:06:10
up playing, I'd have said that's exactly what we're trying to achieve.
01:06:15
>> And we did. Earl like I I can't emphasize enough on how important a role
01:06:23
Earl Curtain played. Um Earl's Earl's Earl. He's different to me and he's
01:06:30
cruisy and he has his gin and lemon in his pocket. Whatever the sliced lemon to put in his gin after at the
01:06:40
aftermatch function. But that's that's Earl. But we got on like a house on fire
01:06:45
as we did when we played together. And um uh it it at the end of that World Cup,
01:06:54
we we were very happy at what we had achieved. This is what we envisionaged the All Blacks playing like. And we and
01:07:02
as I said earlier on, we changed the way test rugby is played. >> And and that is a legacy. Maybe that
01:07:08
maybe that's a legacy I'm most proud of. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's brilliant. I've got another
01:07:14
quote from um Pine Tree. Yep. Um Lori brought honesty to the coaching role. It's a hell of a job dropping players,
01:07:21
but he was always completely honest and he expected honesty from those around him. It upset him when he didn't get it.
01:07:27
I I just want to know is it is it possible to be a great leader and be popular and liked at the same time?
01:07:36
Do you know what it is? It is very very possible to be respected and then when the people you
01:07:46
are leading see you outside the battle zone in a normal situation and they realize oh you're not such a bad bugger
01:07:55
after all. Uh then I can say it it is possible. Yes I say it is possible. >> Who was there one player in particular
01:08:04
that you dreaded having hard conversations with and why? someone that you knew was going to react
01:08:10
badly if you were putting them on the bench for a week or >> No, I and I'll tell you why. I I I
01:08:18
nobody comes to mind. Okay? And I and I'll tell you why. It comes back to what
01:08:23
Colin said in that quote. Um the players I demanded honesty from the players and the players knew that I was
01:08:34
100% honest. Even if I wasn't right, I was saying what I honestly thought and
01:08:41
and I was giving everything I had to the team and to the players. I taught a lot
01:08:47
of those players a lot of good things about rugby. Made them better players and they respected that.
01:08:55
>> I I mentioned on um Instagram that you're coming on the podcast today.
01:08:58
You're not You don't have an Instagram page? >> No. No. Um there are so many questions
01:09:03
from people. Um they're sort of all over the place, but we'll run through these.
01:09:07
Which all black players you've coached would you most want beside you in a tough game and why?
01:09:13
Um Fitzy Zenzan Brookke both the Brook um Frank Bunts both the Brook brothers brothers. Uh Richard Low look I do you
01:09:28
know I would go through most of the team and I'll tell you why. Uh because they
01:09:34
give it 100% and what their job is meant to be and they they they are honest in themselves in the effort that they're
01:09:46
putting into a game of rugby. See Richard Low is a very underrated player. Did you were you close to Was Kully on
01:09:57
your radar in in 95? Was he too young? Did you? >> No. In 95 unfortunately
01:10:02
uh Cully uh in 95 I think it was or beginning of 96 he starred in the sevens >> and that was how John Hart picked him up
01:10:17
and replaced Glenn Osburn. Glenn Osman, I think, played a few games with John, but Cully came in that year. He wasn't
01:10:24
on the radar in 95. >> Um, how do you want to be remembered in New Zealand rugby? This is a question
01:10:32
from Instagram. Um, I just want to be remembered as someone who gave everything he had to his
01:10:41
players, the team, and to New Zealand rugby. That's all I want. that I I I I
01:10:48
did the best that I could. >> Well, it has been a life of service for the sport, hasn't it? As a player and a
01:10:54
coach, >> like over so many decades as well. >> Yeah. Well, it has and some of the
01:11:01
things that I I wonder at times not I mean not many people have given as much to a sport in terms
01:11:13
of performance like I played more than 100 game I I think I played 180 first class games I played
01:11:22
15 or 16 for a targetgo then I turn around and coach a targetgo oh I don't It might have been 140 games under
01:11:29
something. I can't remember. But >> that's a long that's a hell of a long
01:11:34
period of time. >> And I I you know, then I then I coached the All Blacks. I I was on the New
01:11:42
Zealand Rugby Union coaching committee. See, this is something people wouldn't
01:11:45
know. On their coaching committee for about 10 years and under Bill Freeman. And um I did I gave my life to it. M
01:11:57
>> and and and I can to this day I can say that everything I did in rugby I did
01:12:03
with honesty and in believing that what I was doing was the best that I could do.
01:12:11
>> And that's how I would would like to be remembered not so much by what I
01:12:16
achieved but what I gave. I really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I mentioned I had Sir Steve Hansen on the
01:12:23
podcast recently and um a lot of what you've said is even though it's different areas er areas um similar to
01:12:28
him it's like team first. >> Yeah, >> team first in everything and it sort of
01:12:32
it sounds like that's what you were saying as well with all the decisions you made. Well, let me tell you I'll
01:12:36
tell you another story. Uh and and this is media. Um I used to protect my players even even
01:12:47
outside rugby. Now Ingera Tuigala was one. Now, Inger had to live in a garage at his at his family home
01:12:56
and uh I you know I I used to do what I could could do for him. And um Windgray wrote an article
01:13:08
and put it in the New Zealand Herald about Inger, an all black Inger living in a garage that embarrassed Inger so
01:13:16
much. And you know, I had a crack at Win Gray about that. I said, "Should you not have
01:13:23
run it past Inger or me first before you wrote a story like that because of the embarrassment it could cause to him?"
01:13:30
>> Didn't give a [ __ ] Now, that's where I got offside with quite a few of the media when they were
01:13:37
dishonest. I don't care how brutal on me a Juno is if it's honest. You know, if
01:13:45
he's telling the truth, but when they bend the truth and and you know, give illinformed opinions that that's when I
01:13:53
used to get frustrated. >> Yeah. Cuz you care about the players. But I can't imagine how terrifying that
01:13:58
is getting a spray from Lorie Mains. Well, >> it'd be intimidating. >> Oh, I don't know about that, but
01:14:06
>> um I'm not I'll tell you what be a hell of a lot worse getting a spray from
01:14:10
column. Now, let me tell you let me tell you about one. I mean, this is this is legendary.
01:14:16
We we had a a pretty average game again in our first test against France in 95. And I I I don't know the reason for it,
01:14:28
but I was all geared up to uh sort out one or two players and to have a pretty brutal session on the Tuesday, not so
01:14:37
much in hard work cuz the players were fit, but in in uh comments on what we didn't do.
01:14:47
And um Colin got up at the team meeting before we went out and gave the guys what I'd call a genuine Colin me serve
01:14:59
and it was better than I could do and he was and coming from him cuz he he didn't interfere with coaching and I I
01:15:08
used to ask him to have an opinion from time to time and he he was sort of reluctant to do so but this he he just
01:15:16
got up and did that. And like what what did it sound like? >> Just a lot of fbombs.
01:15:22
>> Oh no, no, no, no. He what he spoke, how he spoke. I said to him, "You you would
01:15:30
have made a good coach tree." He said, "Oh, I had a bit of a go at it." But he
01:15:34
said, "I never knew what the backs were doing or words to that effect." Um, no,
01:15:40
he just told them straight about what he expected from All Blacks. M so much mana. Oh, incred. Hey, why do you think
01:15:50
I asked for him to be the the allwake manager? Why do you think I asked for Brian Lahore to be the
01:15:57
>> campaign manager? See what it did? There's two things that that did. I
01:16:02
didn't want to be the center of attention. I bring in a Colin Me and a Brian Lahore and I can fade off into
01:16:10
insignificance and just do my job as a coach. >> And and the spin-off from both of those
01:16:16
guys is they were respected wherever we went by the home countries and nobody tried to pull any fast tricks.
01:16:26
>> Yeah. >> Over Colin past Colin's eyes. He just wouldn't risk it. If you could change
01:16:33
one rugby rule, what would it be? It look, I've got to say it's it's not
01:16:46
so much changing the rule as I let me put it this way. I can't stand seeing 15 phases of rugby with oneoff passes
01:17:04
out to a forward bash into forwards out to another forward bash. And I mean, do you get bored watching that?
01:17:12
>> You get sick of it, >> right? Do we need to have a law that says something like this? Okay, you can
01:17:20
have three or four goes around the ruck like that. After that, it's got to get
01:17:23
out to at least your center. or or but I mean you couldn't have a rule that said that but or do we have to
01:17:34
introduce a law like league have got you get so many plays with a ball and if you
01:17:40
haven't done something with it you lose it I don't know but something's got to happen within the
01:17:47
rules of rugby to stop this you know 16 or 17 phases along the 5 m line M >> I mean it that's ruining rugby
01:17:57
>> m >> as a spectacle. >> Do do you think the all black jersey
01:18:01
still means the same to players today as it did in your era? >> Some of them it does.
01:18:06
>> You can tell that. >> Yeah. >> You you can watch look one new player
01:18:12
that feels that way is Fabian Holland. You'll watch him play. But Arty Savia, greatest
01:18:18
player in the world as far as I'm concerned, Arti Savia, >> like week in week out, that guy produces
01:18:26
his best and and it's all and and he and he gives everything he's got in every
01:18:32
game he plays. He's a smart cookie, too. >> I that he he's my favorite All Black, to
01:18:39
be honest. Um it it so yeah we'll leave that there. >> Who's These are questions from Instagram
01:18:50
by the way. Who's um the greatest All Black of all time and who's the best All
01:18:53
Black coach of all time? >> Well, you can't go past Fred Allen, I don't think. And hearing Brian Lahore
01:19:00
and Colin Me talk about Fred is a needle. uh you know it it it I remember Colin saying to me one day you're getting
01:19:10
close to Fred Allen's needle when I was proddding a few of the players you know
01:19:15
but um so I think Fred Allen Colin me Richie Mccau and I'd say by the time he retires Arty
01:19:24
Savvia might be on that pedestal as well. >> Yeah. got it made super rugby exciting
01:19:30
this year, didn't it? Seeing him with the Moana Pacifica, >> that was fantastic.
01:19:35
>> That was a breath of fresh air into Super Rugby. And it just shows you, I
01:19:40
mean, how great he is. Turned a team that was struggling to make it >> into a team that, you know, was hard to
01:19:46
beat. >> Yeah. And a fan favorite off the field as well. Oh, yeah. >> Um, if you were in charge today, what's
01:19:52
the first thing you'd change about how the All Blacks are run? Well, I don't know how they're run. Um,
01:20:04
you know, you know what I think I'd do? I I' I'd probably have less coaches, so
01:20:10
there's less confusing confusion with the players. At times, I see examples on
01:20:16
the field of this player thinking this is what he's been coached and this player thinking
01:20:22
something different. And if you've got two, like I don't mind extra coaches
01:20:30
being around to deal with technical issues like a scrum coach or whatever. Teach them how to scrum, but don't tell
01:20:37
the players what to do in other parts of the field. There's got to be one person
01:20:42
driving it. And I, you know, so I'm not sure how the All Blacks are driven, whether Scott Robertson drives the whole
01:20:49
thing, not sure. But it it's it's got to get down to that. So you you heard what
01:20:55
I Jones said in that uh Sky TV program. Yeah. The end of the day. >> Uh every Lori taught every player what
01:21:06
his job was and then that job fitted into what our team pattern was. Okay. Can you have
01:21:16
that if you've got players being told by different people what they should be
01:21:20
doing? >> Can you have that? M >> and I see examples at times you see extended periods where
01:21:29
the this all black team is really playing as a unit and looking very very good. At other times like just after
01:21:35
Halime I'm asking myself well hang on this player doesn't know what that player's
01:21:42
meant to be doing. Who's the toughest player you've ever seen? And could they survive in today's
01:21:48
game without getting carded every week? Do you know and a lot of people are are not going to agree with this
01:22:02
for all the rugby he played and how tough he was and everything else. Richard Low would probably get
01:22:11
a card a year or two cards a year, but he wasn't a dirty player. >> He did some stupid things, yes, but he
01:22:19
wasn't a dirty player. He's one. Um, >> were you his coach when the eye gouging
01:22:24
incident happened? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I remember that being a big news
01:22:27
at the time. >> Yeah. I'm not so sure about that. >> Yeah. >> Um
01:22:32
I I don't think he I I there was no way it was an intentional eye gouch. Um Oh boy.
01:22:44
Do you know I'm just wondering if Arty Sier is not that person. >> Wow. That's high praise.
01:22:50
>> Well, see, you've got people like Colamade. Oh, Richie Mccau, >> how would he go in today's game? Uh, he
01:22:59
he'd be outstanding rugby player. Um, but the way the referees interpret it now, he'd he he would lose confidence
01:23:08
the way he used to go into the tackle area to gain the ball because he wouldn't know what the referee's
01:23:12
thinking. Um and and you see such different interpretations uh by the referees that there's the law
01:23:22
I'd like to see changed. >> Coming back to that question earlier on >> um at the tackle you know uh about
01:23:32
players arriving stealing the ball. When does it become a ruck and this business
01:23:38
about oh if you put your hands on the ground it's illegal. That's nonsense,
01:23:44
>> you know. So that uh Fitzy was such a tough player, too, but I'm I'm not not sure how many cards he
01:23:55
would get. Yeah. But but but you know, you you can say that. Um Robin Brooks, another one.
01:24:04
He he is so tough. Uh but they're clever players. They they would just adapt to
01:24:11
what the rules are today. Colum meets would have adapted to what the rules are today.
01:24:18
>> God, so many so many amazing names you mentioned in that one answer. >> Well, Frank Bunt is another one. Now,
01:24:23
there's a guy. He might be the one that wouldn't give cards away. That is an
01:24:29
incredibly tough, skillful player. >> He was tough. >> He'd be as tough as any of the forwards.
01:24:37
>> Did you see were you his first All black coach? Did you select him? How old was
01:24:40
he was old e when he >> Yeah. >> 30 something when he made his debut?
01:24:44
>> Yeah. 28 I think. >> 28. >> 29. >> Peter Thorburn told me when I got
01:24:51
appointed as All Black coach. Peter was one of the uh uh assistant selectors and he
01:25:00
asked me to keep an eye on Frank Bunts and watch him because he's a far better
01:25:04
player than what he's getting credit for. And when you do study them, to to really know what a player's doing in a
01:25:09
game, you got to watch them for 40 minutes, at least 40 minutes. I used to like to watch 20 minutes in the first
01:25:16
half, 20 minutes in the second half. And uh the the work he gets through as well as
01:25:24
having a high level of skill, it's just incredible. >> So he's another one there. Brilliant.
01:25:31
So, feels like you're at a sort of reflective stage of life now in your in your late 70s. You seem really happy and
01:25:37
you seem at peace and in a good place, but um are there things you're still working on as a man?
01:25:45
Yes. Um being a a uh a much more, how do I put it? accommodating uh think thinking about other people more
01:26:03
particularly my partner in in around the house >> uh making sure I'm whatever I do I consider her first
01:26:14
whatever uh and and the people I play golf with um most of the people that are my age I'm you know probably the the
01:26:24
best golfer in the four or whatever and having the tolerance and and being supportive of them.
01:26:31
>> And if we got to look for a ball, so be it. We're looking for a ball. We can all
01:26:35
lose all put a ball in the rough. >> Um, >> so I I think I've learned and and I'm
01:26:43
much more mellow and and much more considerate of other people now than I ever was previously.
01:26:52
>> Yeah, that that's it's a good space to be in. Hey, >> if I hurt someone else's feelings, I
01:26:58
would be incredibly disappointed with myself. >> I try very very hard not to do that.
01:27:05
>> Do you do you um ruminate at all or do you think about like conversations
01:27:09
you've had over the years and things you could have done differently? And >> of course,
01:27:12
>> yeah, I think we all do. It's not a healthy space to play in, but we can't
01:27:15
help, >> you know. You know, if I could go back to when I was 32 years old coaching my
01:27:21
first rugby team and start again, I could be a world beater because of what I know, what I
01:27:31
learned and the and and the great players that I coached that taught me heaps. That's something I haven't said
01:27:38
enough of in this interview is what I learned off the players. >> Uh just in general discussions and and
01:27:46
opinions about how we should do this or how we should do that. I learned a hell of a lot off the players
01:27:52
>> and they had the confidence to tell me what they thought cuz they knew they'd
01:27:56
never get slapped down for giving me their honest opinion. Um, so I I would, you know, I often think
01:28:07
about it and I think how much better coach I would be uh with all the experience I've had behind me.
01:28:14
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's that saying, youth is wasted on the young, right?
01:28:19
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Correct. >> Um, how do you personally define
01:28:22
happiness now? Has it changed over the years? >> Yeah, it does. It It has changed. happy.
01:28:28
I got happiness out of making I I've always had happiness out of making other
01:28:33
people happy, believe it or not. >> Um, even more so now. But, um, being successful
01:28:43
helps with happiness. And it doesn't necessarily mean in your job or your sport. In life in general, being being
01:28:51
successful uh, makes me happy. If I can do good things for other people, it makes me
01:28:59
happy. It made me happy when I saw players that I coached and teams that I coached go
01:29:07
out there and play so well and then come into the dressing room and they're very
01:29:12
buoyant and up. That that was the biggest enjoyment I got out of coaching rugby >> was seeing the success and the happiness
01:29:22
of the players when they had done what they went out there to do. >> Seeing someone reach their potential.
01:29:28
>> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Getting a player to reach their full potential, Jonah
01:29:33
Lamu, >> you know, as an example, um is is Yeah, that that that is so satisfying. M
01:29:43
>> I you know if there's one thing I'm proud of I was never in these things for
01:29:48
me I was in it for rugby and I was in it for the for the team. Mhm. >> I never I never
01:30:00
as a player I it was a lot more for me as a player and that's why I trained so hard and
01:30:10
practiced so hard and everything else. But as soon as I became a coach, it was not about me at all. I wasn't in it for
01:30:19
me. M >> I was in it for the team, for the club, the province or country, whatever, and
01:30:27
for those players. >> And the all black jersey, I got to say this, the targetago jersey, the southern
01:30:32
jersey, a targetgo, and the all black jersey. That's it. That was it for me.
01:30:38
That's what I was in it for. >> Yeah. You you bleed black and blue and
01:30:42
gold, don't you? >> Yes, I do. >> Those three colors. I can tell. Hey,
01:30:46
something that's um a massive sort of discussion these days um which was not a
01:30:51
discussion at all even um in the ' 90s when you were coaching is like mental
01:30:54
health and mental wellness and actually your old mate Sir John Cwin has had a huge impact on this. Um one thing I've
01:31:00
learned is that no one gets to the the the privileged position of being in their late 70s without being kicked in
01:31:05
the ass by life a few times. How's your mental health been over the years? Let
01:31:11
me say for a start, I'm I'm absolutely delighted and proud of what John Cwin
01:31:17
has done. >> I I think it's a real tribute. You can be one of the greatest All Blacks and
01:31:23
still be a real thoughtful person in helping others. >> Um I've been through stages I I've I don't
01:31:33
believe I've ever had depression. I've been through stages where I've been
01:31:40
a bit down, but they don't last that long. And uh nowadays, for example, if I
01:31:47
if I get a bit down, I'll pick up my golf clubs and go and hit a few balls >> and uh take it out on them, you know,
01:31:55
and and get it out of my system. >> I like driving nice cars. >> I do. I I sometimes I'll get in my car
01:32:02
and just go for a drive to somewhere I haven't been for a while, you know, but
01:32:08
I I don't get me wrong, when I was coaching, I was under incredible pressure,
01:32:16
particularly at the time of the All Blacks where all of Aland thought John Hart should have been the All Black
01:32:24
coach and that was there the whole time. and the the Oakland media sniping whenever we
01:32:33
didn't have a good game. It was my fault. It was never the players. And uh there are sometimes when quite
01:32:41
frankly it is the players's fault. >> The coach will never say that publicly,
01:32:46
but it is sometimes the players's fault, not the coach's fault. You can't have a team that goes so well
01:32:54
one week and they play to the pattern and they do well and then the next week we see what we saw against Argentina
01:33:02
with Have you ever seen an all black team throw so many loose passes? >> No. Well, you can't blame the coach for
01:33:09
that, you know. >> Yeah. So uh but in that in that time that I had that was probably the hardest
01:33:19
time in my life was in coaching the All Blacks. While I got a lot of satisfaction out of it and I loved the
01:33:24
rugby environment, the dishonesty of the media >> uh created nothing to do with John. It
01:33:34
wasn't his fault, but the media thought they were doing him a good service and
01:33:40
that they would be able to make a change. Well, New Zealand Rugby Union in those days, all that media was doing was
01:33:47
giving them harder resolve. >> They're not going to turn around and do
01:33:51
what the media tell them to do. M I mean we had we used to have great people on that, you know, John Ding and um uh oh,
01:34:01
West Coast, John Sturgeon, you know, uh um Russ Thomas, there there was, you know,
01:34:10
that's just mentioning a few. David Galvin, that's just mentioning a few.
01:34:14
There were great people who were single-minded men who weren't going to be pushed round by anybody, and they
01:34:21
never were. they they would defy the prime minister and go to South Africa. I mean, that's the sort of people they
01:34:28
were. So, the media were never going to influence them and what they're doing.
01:34:32
>> Do you do you feel like the media this is like history repeating itself? Do you
01:34:35
feel like the media had an impact on the the Ian Foster Scott Robertson thing a couple of years ago?
01:34:42
I I I can I say that I think the all the the the New Zealand Rugby Union handled it
01:34:51
badly. >> Um I don't want to get into should Ian Foster have been removed earlier or not.
01:35:01
Uh but I think it was not handled correctly by the New Zealand Rugby Union to put it down. I mean, they made it
01:35:11
public. It became public that if the All Blacks lost in South Africa, you know, Ian was going to be gone.
01:35:19
Well, that's one game shouldn't determine anybody's fate. If they were
01:35:25
saying to themselves, you know, he he's the team's not going well enough and we
01:35:31
need to change a coach. One game's not going to alter him as a coach. >> Okay. And for him to have to go through
01:35:38
that indignity and and and some of the indignity that he went through um was not fear.
01:35:50
Okay. And uh it it it's you know Scott Robertson, don't get me wrong, he had great claims
01:36:00
to beat, but it needed to be handled better. I remember being questioned about it one day and I said, "Well,
01:36:07
here's a point I make. We expect every All black to play well week after week after week and to
01:36:15
succeed, and if he doesn't, if a player doesn't, he gets dropped." Well, all
01:36:21
black coaches should put themselves in that same situation. They don't perform,
01:36:26
they need to be changed. In other words, if they don't, if the team doesn't
01:36:30
perform, then the coach is not performing. M um now it's not that simple because you
01:36:38
you you have to look at things like are we rebuilding you know what are the reasons you have
01:36:45
to you know administrators have to be rugby n enough and I'm going to come back to that in a minute uh rugby n
01:36:54
enough to know what is actually happening now when I was all black coach uh and get appointed. You remember John
01:37:04
Graham, the great all black all black skipper. Him uh and Brian Lahore were on an advisory panel to the New
01:37:14
Zealand Rugby Union on who should be the all black coach. Now that's what we need now. Those two
01:37:22
guys were apart from being very highly respected, they were very balanced in their thinking. I I knew both of them
01:37:30
well. And Brian Lore I had tremendous admiration for and it was such an honor to have him uh as my campaign manager at
01:37:44
at the World Cup. Uh but they knew how to read what a coach was doing and and was the coach doing a good job.
01:37:53
What was his fault? What was the player's fault? What was the referee's fault? I mean, referees can lose games
01:37:59
for teams through 50/50 calls going the wrong way and in some cases bad calls. Like,
01:38:09
probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going to. When the All Blacks played in
01:38:13
Johannesburg last year, South Africa got awarded a try when the Springbolt prop dropped the
01:38:22
ball a foot off the ground. He dropped it and then fell on it. The try was awarded and and the referee didn't even
01:38:31
go to the video ref. Now, the video ref had interfered in other parts of the game. Why didn't he
01:38:40
interfere then? M see that's now if Scott Robertson had won that game the All Blacks had won
01:38:49
that game there'd be a much more positive attitude about how the team's building than there has been. And that's
01:38:58
I mean that's where people like John Graeme, Brian Lahore, they notice those
01:39:04
things. They see those things that swing the balance of the scales. God, you're still so into it, aren't
01:39:11
you? You're just passionate about it. Passionate about the game. Um, at the start of the chat, we we touched upon
01:39:18
you being a a granddad. Now, what what do you Yeah. What do your grand What do your grandkids call you? You popa
01:39:23
grandad? >> I try to get them to call me Lori, but they don't. >> Um,
01:39:28
>> why do you want to be called Lori? >> Oh, what's your name? >> Yeah. Um,
01:39:35
granddad. >> Yeah, grandad. Yeah. Yeah. How how >> my daughter my daughter calls me one of
01:39:40
my daughters calls me pops. The other one calls me dad. >> Yeah. You like that? You like being
01:39:45
called pops. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's whatever they're comfortable with.
01:39:50
So when I text her back, which is regularly, I sign off as pops. When I text the other one back or email, it's
01:39:58
dad. How do you hope your grandkids see you as a man? Um what are you like? Are you are you
01:40:07
you playful and cuddly? >> I was when they were young. I I I I've got a I've got a grandson
01:40:16
who's got the seafaring blood in him that I had and he, you know, he loves his
01:40:23
fishing. He's gone into contracting. Um I I've given him quite a lot of advice
01:40:30
um and so on and and that's where the fishing gear is going to go. Uh so yeah, unfortunately
01:40:41
uh my other daughter hasn't had any children, >> but uh I I haven't seen as much of my
01:40:47
grandchildren as I would love to have because my daughter moved to Oakuckland and um
01:40:54
that that had my two grandchildren. But yeah, they're still there and I yeah
01:41:00
>> see them from time to time and >> next year when the big 80 comes over I'm
01:41:06
going to get them all down. >> How good how good. >> Um are you are you very emotional these
01:41:12
days in this stage of your life? Like when was the last time you cried? I find as as I get older, like I reckon
01:41:23
through my 20s and 30s, I could probably count on a couple of fingers how often I
01:41:28
cried. It would have just been maybe my nana's funeral. Maybe that was the only
01:41:31
time. But as I get older, I get I find I'm getting more and more emotional all
01:41:34
the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you do. Obviously, I did um you know, when when my mother
01:41:40
died and when my father died. >> Um this one will surprise you. Uh my older brother had had a dog that was
01:41:54
the dog of the century. I swear the the dog used to come and stay with me from time to time and
01:42:04
uh I swear you could talk to it and it understood what you were saying or she and um the most amazing little border
01:42:14
collie, intelligent, unbelievable. And every time I went there, she'd go turn
01:42:20
around to the front of their house and come back with a bit of rope about so long for me to play with her.
01:42:28
Uh, she died rather suddenly and I I I had a tear or two over that. Um, and I I I've
01:42:42
just, you know, recently uh I don't really want to talk about what caused it, but I've had a pretty emotional
01:42:51
experience a couple of times in the last two years. And yeah, I I had a little bit of a thing
01:43:00
about not being able to do anything about it, >> you know, not being able to help or
01:43:06
whatever. So, I think it happens to everybody. >> Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any
01:43:11
regrets, personal, professional, or otherwise? >> Yeah, I do. I do. I think I think anyone that anyone that
01:43:21
gets to 80 that says they don't hasn't lived a hasn't lived a thorough life.
01:43:26
Well, I I have regrets uh that I spent so much time away from my family when when my daughters were at an
01:43:39
age early teenagers uh and and a little bit younger. >> Uh and their mother,
01:43:48
I believe, suffered quite badly from me not being there very often. being an all
01:43:54
black coach in those days, you were just all over the place. >> Um, I have
01:44:02
regrets about that and and she ended up with a problem over it. Um, so I I definitely have regrets about
01:44:19
that. I think that maybe I could have managed it better. Uh although, you know, those same years
01:44:27
we had the most fabulous fun Christmases. >> Uh and and that as a family, uh I was
01:44:35
into my water skiing and and jet boating and all that sort of stuff. And my daughters just loved it.
01:44:40
>> Yeah. >> And uh and fishing out on the lakes and things like that. They were they were
01:44:46
fabulous Christmases and always had a very good friend of mine, Lindseay Clark, who I played 100 games for Rago
01:44:53
with. Uh he's played more than me for a targetgo. Uh we used to go away camping
01:44:58
together and and and other members of our team. Well, there used to about six or seven of our club team used to go
01:45:04
away together. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Do you um do you still set goals? Do you have do you have future goals?
01:45:12
>> Yep. Uh, I I I got I was really doing well at golf and I got my handicap down to 3.8
01:45:22
about 3 months ago, three or four months ago. And then I had a fall, compressed a
01:45:29
nerve in my neck. And it's like being a rugby player. You play with injuries. And I had this terrible
01:45:36
pain under my shoulder blade. And I still thought I could play golf and couldn't. and and in
01:45:43
3 months or 2 and 1/2 months, my handicap went from 3.8 to about 8, which which it's at now. Now
01:45:53
is the time. My goal now is to get back to I think a reasonable handicap slope for me is four or five.
01:46:02
>> I mean, I don't know many other 80y olds that are there. So, that's a goal.
01:46:08
>> Um, that's one I enjoy. I'm a very very keen gardener. I Oh, tomatoes,
01:46:14
cucumbers. Lori's got the best tomatoes in the district. Feed half I was feeding
01:46:21
half the staff at the hills with cucumbers and tomato and uh my friends. Um but I grow
01:46:29
vegetables for you know just eating parnips and carrots out of the garden now. And um yeah, so I love my garden
01:46:38
>> and and I'm very keen on my landscaping too. I do all my own landscaping.
01:46:43
>> Um so I still and that included building a 30 m fence, you know, 2 m high fence and things like
01:46:52
that at the back of the house. Um so I I Yeah. And your your relationship with your own
01:47:00
mortality, what what's that like? I mean, we've mentioned so many names today of people that are no longer with
01:47:05
us. You know, you brought from Brian Lahore and Colin Mez to even younger players like Jonah.
01:47:11
>> Um, yeah. Yeah. What's your relationship with death like? >> So, it's a very bleak question, but it's
01:47:18
a reality for all of us. I I do you know I I have sort of thought about it but I I think because of the
01:47:28
how I feel and how I play golf uh you know a year ago I was saying I'm hitting the ball just about as far as I
01:47:37
did when I was 50 >> and and and I'm uh you know walking around a golf course
01:47:46
uh in wet weather and things like that. And and I'm thinking, "Oh, I got a while to go yet." You know,
01:47:54
um I'm looking forward to 90 to be honest. >> Yeah. >> And uh I don't think I I know it'll
01:48:02
happen one day. And I have the feeling I can't I can't think seriously about it
01:48:08
at the moment, but I have this feeling that when the time comes, I'll be ready
01:48:13
for it. I'll accept it. M uh if if next week I was diagnosed with a terminal
01:48:21
cancer uh then I' I'd be disappointed it's happened, angry that it's happened. Uh say right what have I
01:48:33
got to get done in the next 3 months or 6 months or whatever uh that that's in
01:48:39
the bucket list uh and and then accept it >> and get round and do it. But but I'm not
01:48:46
even thinking about the days when I can't go out and play golf or I can't do my
01:48:53
garden. My garden seems to get a bit bigger every year. I seem to have more time and uh just as much energy to look
01:49:01
after it. >> That's wonderful. Well, as I said at the beginning, like the the man sitting in
01:49:05
front of me today, like he seems in really good nick. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel really good. you
01:49:11
know, I as I say, I get up I I I've got some historical rugby injuries and uh so
01:49:18
I get up in the morning and stretch and you know, to keep on top of them. Um and
01:49:24
I do a little bit of weight training but with one of those Chuck Norris uh >> home gym thing.
01:49:31
>> Home gym thing on pulley. So I don't want impact. >> Yeah. Um, and and I I I don't want to do
01:49:37
heavy weights cuz that at my age that's not a sensible thing to do. >> Um, so I I I just keep I just keep going
01:49:46
and uh I don't think about I mean, yeah, okay, I I I accept the fact that I'm going to be 80 soon, but I
01:49:55
don't think about that as old. >> Uh, I'll start to feel old when I can't
01:50:00
do the things I like doing. Yeah. So, I'm I'm 52 now. I've become mildly obsessed with um the aging
01:50:08
process. And you see someone like I see someone like you and I think, okay, what's the secret? Same as like Winston
01:50:14
Peters or even Yeah. Donald Trump, the guys in their late 70s or early 80s and they're still crushing it.
01:50:19
>> Yeah. >> Just getting on with it. I think you have to keep active. E that's the key.
01:50:22
>> Well, you got to keep active mentally and and and physically. M >> mentally is just as important cuz if you
01:50:29
go old mentally you go old physically >> and vice versa. >> So uh that good healthy diet and
01:50:38
something that I'm not quite so good at is getting plenty of sleep. I I seem to
01:50:45
think 5 hours is enough for me at night, you know, and and when there's things
01:50:52
like uh fed up golf on TV and whatever, >> always something to watch. >> There is and um
01:51:03
you know, rugby matches in the middle of the night and that, but I had the discipline. Now, here's a good thing. I
01:51:10
needed a decent sleep on Saturday night. So, I had the discipline to record the Spring Bach Australia game and then I
01:51:18
watched it yesterday. >> Jesus, what a second half. >> Yeah. Incredible. I I tell you what,
01:51:22
we're going to have we're going to have some trouble with Australia. You know,
01:51:27
you get them Australia confident. They they've had their backsides kicked the
01:51:31
last few years, but all of a sudden they're now believe in themselves. >> We're in for a hell of a battle.
01:51:38
>> Yeah. What three words would family and friends use to describe you? This is
01:51:44
something I ask all my guests. It was actually um I had a guy on the podcast called Doo Allen who's like a coast to
01:51:49
coast legend and he did one of those 24-hour adventure races with Richie Mccor. And he said it's something Richie
01:51:53
asked the teammates in the middle of the night when they were doing it. And he one of Richie's words for himself was
01:51:58
integrity. And this guy Doo said, "It's funny. You know, I've only been with you
01:52:01
a couple of days, but that's a word I'd use for you." >> Yeah. Uh loyalty,
01:52:07
honesty, and in integrity. Yeah, >> would would probably probably cover it. Loyalty is very
01:52:16
important one for me and and uh yeah, honesty when you deal with people. >> Great words. Are you you like who you
01:52:26
see in the mirror? Are you someone you'd want to go and have a beer with? >> Yeah. I' I'd have a hell of a lot of
01:52:33
questions to ask me. >> Would you like what? So just the things like I try to not to talk too much about
01:52:41
myself or or that sort of thing. I'd be asking plenty >> about because of what I've been through,
01:52:47
you know, and and where I've been and and things like that. By by the way, I I
01:52:52
I was also a wine connoisseur for quite a few years. I I had quite a big wine seller in one of my houses. Uh, but
01:53:02
because I drink so little now, I haven't had to buy wine for a long time because
01:53:07
I I'm drinking Oh, some of my reds are just fabulous. But I might have half 3/4
01:53:13
of a glass twice a week. >> Wow. >> More likely once a week. And in summer, I'll have a hazy pale ale on a
01:53:23
hot day. >> So, I don't drink much now. That That's another thing. I've I've really cut that
01:53:28
back intentionally. >> Yes. M yeah. Well, I you know I say to myself, well, yes, I like the taste of
01:53:36
it, particularly the hazy pale alle having a beer and and and that's fine to
01:53:40
have one of them. Uh red wine, a great friend of mine years ago I played rugby with who's one of the top heart surgeons
01:53:50
in the country, Richard Bundon. He's retired now, but >> he he told me one day, you know, a
01:53:57
little bit of red wine is good for your heart. And it's I love I love the flavor of a
01:54:03
good I love to drink a good quality red wine. >> So do I. Do you like a heavier one or a
01:54:08
pino? What are you into? >> No, not so much on pinos. I'm I'm uh or
01:54:14
although a pinatage I I really enjoy. South African pinage is very very good wine. But I've you know Cabernet
01:54:23
>> Mhm. >> I've I've got quite a few of them still to go. M. Oh, I've got some wine at home
01:54:29
that'd be worth thousands of dollars. The bottles, you know, the big jerobams
01:54:33
and things like that, but >> wow. >> I'm not Yeah, but I didn't buy them for
01:54:37
someone else to drink. >> Um, how have you This has been a lot of fun. >> Some of some of these are going to come
01:54:44
out in my 80th next year. >> Yeah. Oh [ __ ] >> I have to push for an invite.
01:54:49
>> Um, how have you found this today as someone that's not a huge fan of talking
01:54:53
about themselves? Like, is it quite cathartic? Is it nice to reflect on some of the stuff? Uh Dom, I've got to give
01:54:59
you some credit here. You you immediately relaxed me and and made me realize that
01:55:06
this is just a chat. There's no angles. And that's something I really appreciate
01:55:11
when I get interviewed and that there's not an angle. And uh reminiscing for me
01:55:19
with a with a complete stranger is really enjoyable. Uh, and you you you were did quite a lot
01:55:29
of this off the cuff based on what I had talked about and things I'd said and I
01:55:36
found it very enjoyable and very refreshing. >> And put me in a really good mood to go
01:55:42
and pick up my new car this afternoon. >> What is it? I I noticed you walked in
01:55:46
today with um an Audi umbrella, which looks like you get complimentary when you buy a new one. What's the new car?
01:55:51
Well, the new car is an Audi SQ6, uh, which is a new model, and it's 100% electric.
01:56:02
I love electric cars. I've had two. I had a Porsche Tyan and and the Audi RX
01:56:09
GT Ron. and uh they're fabulous cars, but realistically now the I moved past cars
01:56:18
in into the hatchback or not the hatchbacks of smaller station wagons. So I'm really this is a it's a it's a whole
01:56:27
new concept of battery and uh uh uh electrical platform that the Porsche TYON and no the Porsche Macan and Audi
01:56:39
SQS have uh used together developed together because they're the same parent
01:56:46
company and I'm really looking forward to getting it. >> Wow. Well, you heard it here first. If
01:56:52
anyone's um standing at a charging station and there's someone there that
01:56:55
looks like Lori Mains, it probably is Lori Mains. >> Probably is. >> Especially if there's if if you need if
01:57:00
you're not 100% sure, just look in the boots, see if the golf clubs are there.
01:57:03
>> Yeah. See, I don't go far without them. >> Yeah. Hey, this has been really neat.
01:57:06
Are you Are you proud of yourself? >> Most I I'm proud of what I achieved and what
01:57:16
I gave to rugby is probably a better way to put it. I'm proud of what I gave to
01:57:20
rugby. Uh my daughters say that I should be very proud of myself for them. >> Um
01:57:31
>> cool. >> And that's >> that's the ultimate. >> Yes. But
01:57:38
I I I come back to that issue. I have regrets about not being there enough in their formative years because of rugby.
01:57:49
M >> but they both turned out pretty good. I'm I'm very happy with them as people.
01:57:54
>> M >> and um yeah. So yeah, I'm like, yeah, I can look back on my
01:58:05
life and say, uh, yeah, I've I've I've done a fair bit. And I think I've pushed myself to
01:58:15
the limits of my ability >> in in whatever I I think that's something I'd say that I'm very proud
01:58:21
of, that I pushed myself to the limits of my ability and I'm still doing it with golf.
01:58:28
Uh, I just wish to hell I'd played golf when I was younger. I might not have
01:58:34
been through all this rugby pain. I I might have been a professional golfer. >> Yeah. And there's longevity there, eh?
01:58:39
>> Yeah. Well, the thing is, uh, I I'm I'm actually quite proud of the fact that
01:58:44
last year I was I was down or over summer I was down to a 3.8 handicap and I'm 79 years old. Wow.
01:58:54
>> And I'm saying, geez, how good could I have been if I'd taken it up, you know,
01:58:59
when I could have hit the ball another 60 yards or 70 yards, you know, meters, >> you know,
01:59:05
>> who knows? >> Well, Lori Mains, this has been this has been great. Um,
01:59:10
>> oh yeah, one thing I forgot to mention, I read in an interview that Jon, he he
01:59:15
when he was still alive, he said you were his favorite coach, which I think says says a lot. Have you heard that? Uh
01:59:20
I I didn't but um I knew Jonah liked me and and one of the things I I had helped
01:59:29
with other island players about how to deal with him and Jonah was a very shy individual initially
01:59:36
and I if I needed to speak to Jonah about something I'd always go to his room and speak to him on his own. I'd
01:59:44
never even suggest a criticism in front of other players. And what I used to do at trainings was give Jonah a couple of
01:59:52
things that he is very good at doing like like we'll do a move off the back of the line out. Now Loey, would you get
01:59:59
out there with a tackle bag to stop him? And then it' come Jonah and he'd sit Richard low on his
02:00:09
backside, you know, and everybody would crack up and Jonah would feel really good about it, you know. And I I was
02:00:16
taught by Earl for a start who who in Wellington coached a lot of island players, but by uh Michael Jones, Ronnie
02:00:25
Clark was another one who was very good for me to talk to about the island players. And I learned how to deal with
02:00:34
them. And I learned that you just treated them totally different. And here's the great thing about all blacks.
02:00:41
They all understand that. Even the ones I used to rip up occasionally occasionally they knew why they they had
02:00:51
not done what they should have done or had been a bit off the pace and they knew they were the whipping boys and
02:00:57
they accepted it. >> It you know Steve Hton of this world on but >> yeah jeez stories for days. Um hey this
02:01:07
has been amazing mate. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. E
02:01:11
>> yeah well I Let me tell you something, Dom. I'm now I'm over the moon that you
02:01:18
asked me to do this. This discussion chat we've had today has done me wonders.
02:01:25
>> How so? >> Um, it's really lightened me up about about rugby and about that. It's reinforced in
02:01:35
my mind that there's nothing going on up here because I can remember so many
02:01:40
things. um and and talking about it again with someone who understands, someone who is excited to be hearing it.
02:01:50
That that that all rubs off on me. >> And uh you you've drawn more out of me
02:01:57
than I think any other uh media person has ever done. Oh [ __ ] the camera's
02:02:04
still rolling. We got this. And I appreciate it. Yeah. No, no agenda, no gotcha. Just um just a good conversation
02:02:11
with a great New Zealander. >> Yeah. Well, I look forward to doing it again sometime.
02:02:15
>> Yeah. Well, let's do it at your place next time and we'll crack into some of
02:02:17
those reds.