00:00:00
Everything I did in rugby I did with
00:00:02
honesty and believing that what I was
00:00:05
doing was the best that I could do. And
00:00:07
that's how I would like to be
00:00:08
remembered. Not so much by what I
00:00:10
achieved, but what I gave. When I took
00:00:12
over, I knew my first priority was we
00:00:15
had to select the right players, but
00:00:17
rebuild the All Black team. The aim was
00:00:20
the next World Cup.
00:00:21
>> The 95 Rugby World Cup.
00:00:23
>> Oh, I've never stopped thinking about
00:00:24
that. If we had won that game, I would
00:00:27
have said that's one of the greatest
00:00:29
sporting achievements of all time.
00:00:31
There's no doubt that we were poisoned.
00:00:33
We hired a private detective over there
00:00:35
ourselves. The end result of that was at
00:00:38
the end of that World Cup, we were very
00:00:40
happy at what we had achieved. This is
00:00:42
what we envisioned the All Blacks
00:00:44
playing like. We changed the way test
00:00:46
rugby has played. Maybe that's a legacy
00:00:48
I'm most proud of. This discussion we've
00:00:51
had today has done me wonders. You've
00:00:54
drawn more out of me than I think any
00:00:56
other media person has ever done.
00:01:00
>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:01:02
the center of performance. Whenever
00:01:04
there's a top performance in New
00:01:05
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:07
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:01:09
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:11
Holland one in To.
00:01:14
He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:16
performance going?
00:01:17
>> Top tier.
00:01:18
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here
00:01:20
you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:21
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:23
investments. Get in here in maximize
00:01:26
generate.
00:01:27
>> Putting performance first.
00:01:35
>> Lori Mains, welcome to my podcast. Well,
00:01:37
it's pleasure to be here.
00:01:39
>> Mate, I'm I'm kind of starruck and
00:01:41
intimidated as well. Like from what I've
00:01:43
read about you and learned about you,
00:01:44
you're a scary dude.
00:01:45
>> No, don't be. I'm I'm a jackal and hide.
00:01:49
really when it when I was coaching at
00:01:51
times had to be tough and pretty direct.
00:01:55
Uh but I'm a lot more cruisy now.
00:01:58
>> Yeah. Have you mellowed with age?
00:02:00
>> I have. Yeah, of course I have. I think
00:02:02
everybody does. But I I I mean I had
00:02:06
really good social times with the
00:02:07
players outside the actual playing of
00:02:09
the game as well. A different person.
00:02:12
>> Yeah. How does life look? What are you
00:02:14
79?
00:02:14
>> 79.
00:02:15
>> You're you are aging fantastically.
00:02:17
>> Thank you. You're you're spritly, you're
00:02:19
sharp. Um we've been chatting for 10
00:02:21
minutes um while we get the cameras set
00:02:23
up and um you're incredibly like proud
00:02:26
of your your legacy and your
00:02:27
achievements still. Um what's the
00:02:30
secret? Um well, I do make sure that I
00:02:34
eat good food and I do make sure that I
00:02:37
keep I still do my exercises in the
00:02:40
mornings and and things like that. I I
00:02:42
look after myself because I want to live
00:02:46
life to the maximum and then ideally I
00:02:49
just drop off one night. I mean, but I
00:02:52
want to stay healthy up until that time.
00:02:55
>> Yeah. What does life look like now? Have
00:02:57
you got grandkids? Are you a grand?
00:02:58
>> I've got I've got some grandkids. Um,
00:03:01
yeah,
00:03:03
my my one of my daughters, her her and
00:03:06
her children do a lot of fishing, and
00:03:08
I'm really pleased about that because I
00:03:10
was a fishing nutter. Trout, salmon, sea
00:03:13
fishing, did it all. And and she's taken
00:03:16
up that legacy. I never had any sons, so
00:03:19
guess where all the fishing gear is
00:03:20
going. Some of it's been dribbling up
00:03:22
there. She she lives in uh at Manacow
00:03:25
Heads, but um some of my gear has
00:03:29
already dribbled up there, but there'll
00:03:30
be a lot more going soon because I don't
00:03:33
do any fishing now. Golf's what I do.
00:03:36
You go. All right.
00:03:38
Yeah, I'm I haven't been playing too
00:03:40
well lately. I compressed a nerve in my
00:03:42
neck a while ago. And uh my handicap
00:03:46
slipped out. I think I think it's about
00:03:48
8 now, but normally I sit around five or
00:03:52
six.
00:03:54
>> That's good going. Do you play with
00:03:55
Justin Marshall at all? That's how I got
00:03:56
in touch with you. Justin Marshall, one
00:03:58
of your old players, gave me your number
00:04:00
>> many years ago. Justin was a member at
00:04:02
the Hills and I do recall playing with
00:04:05
him a couple of times back in those
00:04:07
days, but no, no, I haven't. I've I I
00:04:10
don't think I've seen just Justin just
00:04:11
Justin for two or three years. see him
00:04:14
on television of course, but I haven't
00:04:16
spoken to him for a while.
00:04:18
>> Yeah, it must be a strange relationship
00:04:19
when you you you go through that intense
00:04:22
relationship of being coach player. And
00:04:23
who who are you still friends with and
00:04:25
who do you see on a regular basis? Oh,
00:04:27
>> your old players.
00:04:28
>> Look, I see I see a few of them. Uh
00:04:30
Robin Brook comes down here to play golf
00:04:33
occasionally. Uh Fitzy, we talk from
00:04:36
time to time. Um, I'll tell you who I am
00:04:39
do see quite a bit of is both of the
00:04:42
Barrett brothers, Bowden and Jordi. Not
00:04:44
Scott. I haven't met him, but because a
00:04:47
lot of them come here uh for a holiday.
00:04:52
Uh, Leon uh Leon McDonald used to be
00:04:56
down here quite often. Um, I didn't
00:04:58
coach him but always respected him as a
00:05:01
player.
00:05:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned Robin Brook
00:05:05
there. I I I got a hold of your your
00:05:07
book which you told me you've never
00:05:08
read. Um there's a bit in there at the
00:05:11
end where you sort of it's like a nice
00:05:12
tribute to all your players from the 90
00:05:14
fighter squad and um you Robin Brookke
00:05:16
was there a joke in the team like people
00:05:18
people called you dad to him like you
00:05:20
was he like the teachers pet? No, it was
00:05:22
was he your favorite? No, it was more I
00:05:23
think it was more like that with Jamie
00:05:25
Joseph. Um, Robin, oh, I was, look, I
00:05:30
every player I was incredibly fond of in
00:05:33
different ways. Robin was one of those
00:05:36
players if you felt the team was not
00:05:40
really focused on a practice uh or by
00:05:44
Thursday I can tell whether they're in
00:05:46
the right frame of mind for a game on
00:05:48
Saturday or not. Robin was one of those
00:05:50
I'd have a have a crack at him about it
00:05:54
cuz he he just let it go off his back
00:05:56
like water off a duck,
00:05:58
>> but it would have an effect on the rest
00:05:59
of the team.
00:06:00
>> Yeah. Oh, so you bonded with him.
00:06:02
>> Yeah. I know. I like I liked Rob. I
00:06:05
really respected him. Not only was he a
00:06:07
skillful rugby player, he wasn't big for
00:06:10
an international lock, but he was
00:06:12
incredibly tough
00:06:13
>> and nobody ever got the better of him.
00:06:15
That's what I and Zinny was the same.
00:06:17
But that's what I liked about them.
00:06:19
Nobody. They wouldn't let anybody get
00:06:21
the better of them.
00:06:22
>> Yeah. I'm so excited about this podcast.
00:06:25
There's so much to unpack and talk
00:06:26
about. Um some of it might be a little
00:06:28
triggering for you. By the way,
00:06:29
apologies that um just over your right
00:06:31
hand shoulder is um a South African
00:06:33
jersey. I hope that's a what is your
00:06:36
what is your earliest memory or
00:06:37
memories? So, you were born in February
00:06:39
1946. So, you're you're officially like
00:06:41
a boomer. Like the the true definition
00:06:43
of a like a a war a post-war baby. Were
00:06:47
you a post-war baby or was it just
00:06:48
coincidence the timing?
00:06:49
>> Just coincidence. I think you know my
00:06:52
earliest memories.
00:06:53
>> What's that? We
00:06:53
>> I I lived in a street called Ryhill
00:06:56
Street in Deneden and it was had a great
00:06:59
big wide grass verge out out in front of
00:07:02
the house and trees planted every here
00:07:05
and there and these were adult trees. My
00:07:08
earliest memories are kicking a rugby
00:07:10
ball into one of those trees.
00:07:13
I I mean I had a fascination as a kid
00:07:16
about kicking rugby balls around and um
00:07:21
I did it in the backyard. I did it out
00:07:24
on the street. Um was just something I
00:07:27
did and I think that is the earliest
00:07:29
memories I've got
00:07:31
>> and and I could hardly walk at the dock
00:07:34
probably only been 3 or 4 years old.
00:07:37
Natural talent versus hard work. Were
00:07:39
you natural or uh do you think just
00:07:41
having having a ball from that young age
00:07:43
and just kicking it around everywhere
00:07:44
you sort of you know I think I've I've
00:07:47
clearly got some good hand eye
00:07:49
coordination and good timing but I
00:07:52
wasn't particularly fast wasn't
00:07:54
particularly big or strong. I had to put
00:07:58
an awful lot of hard work in.
00:08:00
>> And yeah there's a photo here in the
00:08:02
book. This is um yeah you on your test
00:08:05
debut.
00:08:06
>> Oh yeah. Christ Church, Lancaster Park,
00:08:08
1971.
00:08:09
>> Yeah.
00:08:10
>> If if you Yeah. How are you the same and
00:08:12
how are you different to that to that
00:08:13
kid?
00:08:16
>> In terms of how how you feel now?
00:08:20
>> Yeah. That that's hard to say. You know,
00:08:22
at that time in my life, I had one
00:08:24
focus. No, I had two focuses. I had my
00:08:27
family and then I had rugby. And rugby
00:08:32
dominated
00:08:35
probably 30 40 years of my life
00:08:38
>> and it it
00:08:41
to the sac sacrifice of of other aspects
00:08:44
of life.
00:08:46
>> If if you could um pick up a phone and
00:08:48
FaceTime that 20-year-old Lori Mains
00:08:50
there, what would you say to him?
00:08:53
>> Um what would I say? I'd I'd probably
00:08:58
tell him to
00:09:00
keep working hard. If if if being a top
00:09:03
rugby player for a long period of time
00:09:06
is something you really want to do, then
00:09:08
you've got to put the hard work in. But
00:09:10
I'd have a better balance. I' I'd I'd
00:09:13
advise him to have a really good thing
00:09:15
about think about his family life, his
00:09:18
friends, and and and life outside rugby
00:09:21
and try and get a better balance
00:09:24
>> than I had.
00:09:26
Why did you get the balance wrong? You
00:09:28
from an outsers's perspective, you seem
00:09:29
you seem to you seem to have it right.
00:09:31
You had a fantastic all black career,
00:09:33
fantastic Otago career. You were a
00:09:35
builder. You've done well in business.
00:09:37
You seem to navigate the amateur
00:09:39
professional thing pretty well.
00:09:41
>> I did. Uh but I'm going to let you into
00:09:43
something now. I I I did I I was very
00:09:47
keen fisherman and uh over summer that
00:09:51
was I I did a lot of that while still
00:09:53
keeping working on my overall fitness.
00:09:56
Um quite often I look back and the one
00:10:01
of the things I regret about my rugby
00:10:03
career because you know I had that time
00:10:06
playing but then I had another 30 years
00:10:09
or 25 years I think it was coaching
00:10:12
>> which was all-encompassing.
00:10:14
I've I was one of these people if I take
00:10:17
something on then then I give it
00:10:19
everything I've got and um just
00:10:23
hyperfixate on it.
00:10:25
>> Yeah. and and rugby coaching was more
00:10:27
demanding than playing uh to the
00:10:30
detriment of my daughters and and wife.
00:10:33
Uh
00:10:35
and it's something that I would think
00:10:37
very seriously about again before going
00:10:40
into a prolonged coaching career like
00:10:42
that. I'd have a really good think about
00:10:45
it
00:10:46
>> and and make sure that's what I want to
00:10:49
do. I was an incredibly busy person
00:10:52
starting a a business.
00:10:55
um coaching rugby, having a family. Man,
00:11:00
>> that's a lot. It's a lot of spades to
00:11:01
the plates to me spinning. Do you That
00:11:03
That sounds like a regret in a way. Is
00:11:05
that a regret?
00:11:06
>> It It It is a little bit. Um
00:11:10
I'm very very proud of the things that I
00:11:12
did in rugby.
00:11:15
But there are things that are more
00:11:17
important than your own pleasure and
00:11:20
your own sport.
00:11:22
>> And uh your family has to come first.
00:11:27
>> Yeah. I've had Sir Peter Leech on the
00:11:28
podcast before and he's about the same
00:11:30
age as you, maybe a year or two older.
00:11:31
And um he said the same sort of thing
00:11:33
like he was working so hard, double
00:11:35
jobs, like building this business that
00:11:36
he sacrificed family time. And you know,
00:11:38
it's only when you get older that you
00:11:40
look back and you realize you can't you
00:11:41
can't get that time back.
00:11:43
>> Absolutely. Yeah.
00:11:45
>> And that's a regret I have. I see quite
00:11:47
a lot of one of my daughters because she
00:11:49
lives just down the road in Alexandra.
00:11:51
So, you know, once a Fortnite
00:11:54
Max, she's up to spend a day with me or
00:11:57
so on. But you can't get all that time
00:12:02
you weren't there. You can't get that
00:12:04
back.
00:12:05
>> Yeah.
00:12:06
I'm sure they understand.
00:12:09
>> Yeah. And they they were proud of their
00:12:10
dad and they they if they were asked the
00:12:13
question at the time,
00:12:15
>> should he carry on or would you rather
00:12:16
have him around home much more? They
00:12:19
would have probably said to me, "No,
00:12:20
carry, we want you to carry on."
00:12:23
>> Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I
00:12:24
>> I appreciate it. Um Okay, let's talk
00:12:27
about some fun stuff. So day for the All
00:12:29
Blacks, 1971 against the Lions. Um let's
00:12:33
run through some first. So how do you
00:12:34
find out you made the squad? Is there a
00:12:36
like a possibles and probables trial? Do
00:12:38
you hear it on the radio? Do you get a
00:12:40
phone call?
00:12:40
>> Uh, we had trolls, but Charlie Saxton,
00:12:43
who was chairman of the New Zealand
00:12:46
Rugby Union at the time, uh, come from
00:12:49
Deneden, and he was a man. He was an all
00:12:53
black, a great rugby person, and he used
00:12:56
to mentor me a bit quite often during
00:12:58
the week. I'd wander into his shop. He
00:13:00
had a clothing men's clothing shop in
00:13:02
Deneden and I'd wander in there and have
00:13:05
a chat to him and got a lot of very very
00:13:07
good advice. He rang me up uh Sunday
00:13:10
afternoon it was I remember being at
00:13:12
home was about I think 2 or 3:00 in the
00:13:16
afternoon. What did I do as soon as I
00:13:18
got off the phone? Picked up the boots,
00:13:22
couple of balls down to Bathgate Park
00:13:25
and did some practice.
00:13:28
Unbelievable. Um, and it was a stacks
00:13:31
team, right? Colin Me, Brian L'ore,
00:13:33
Grisweily, um, Brian Williams. I think
00:13:37
Brian Lore,
00:13:39
uh, came in
00:13:41
for the third test. So, the first one I
00:13:45
played in Christ Church, I don't think
00:13:46
Brian played in that. Um,
00:13:49
Pet Peter Whiting or the other lock got
00:13:53
injured and and they pulled Brian in, I
00:13:55
think, for the third and fourth test. M
00:13:58
do you had you played against those guys
00:14:00
prior to that and and whatever the the
00:14:01
equivalent of NPC was back then. What's
00:14:03
it like playing against Colin Maid?
00:14:05
>> Absolutely terrify you just you just
00:14:09
and I was a fullback. I mean the legacy
00:14:12
he had. I I first played against him
00:14:18
judge I can't remember if it was an all
00:14:20
black troll now or north south game. It
00:14:22
might have been and I just thought I
00:14:24
don't want to get caught in the ruck or
00:14:26
the deck of with him coming in cuz he
00:14:29
might decide seeing I'm the goal kicker
00:14:31
that he doesn't want me to carry on cuz
00:14:34
he he wrote the forward um to your book.
00:14:36
I've got a quote here. Um because you
00:14:38
guys ended up being you he was your
00:14:39
manager your great friends.
00:14:41
>> Uh this is a quote. Lori is a typical
00:14:43
New Zealander. Never flamboyant and hurt
00:14:45
terribly when his teams lost. He hurt
00:14:47
more than any player. We'll get to that
00:14:49
later. I'd arg more than you. Um and the
00:14:54
and he hurts most when his team failed
00:14:55
to win the Rugby World Cup. The players
00:14:57
in turn were upset for him which was a
00:14:59
measure of the greatness of the man.
00:15:01
>> Well, sir Colin me on you.
00:15:04
>> Yeah, that's flattering.
00:15:05
>> Yeah. Tree and I did get on well. And I
00:15:08
remember before we went to that World
00:15:11
Cup,
00:15:13
my aim was to have the All Blacks as the
00:15:16
fittest team uh at the World Cup and we
00:15:20
had three camps, three-day camps um over
00:15:24
the summer period and they were brutal
00:15:27
if I admit myself. And I I remember
00:15:29
Colin and Brian both coming. Tao was the
00:15:32
one that was was legendary and they came
00:15:36
to me and they said I don't think we've
00:15:37
ever seen any players work so hard.
00:15:41
>> Yeah. And in what way? Cuz there was one
00:15:43
there was one here in Queenstown in 1994
00:15:45
and then the top one in 95.
00:15:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Queenstown one that was
00:15:49
gentle. That was really just a mental
00:15:52
exercise. um explaining to the players
00:15:56
what we were going to do over the summer
00:15:58
and setting them out in groups to give
00:16:02
Earl and I feedback on what they felt
00:16:05
the direction we should be going and and
00:16:07
so on. what I what I did at those camps.
00:16:12
I mean, they they were incredibly
00:16:15
demanding physically, but I worked so
00:16:19
hard with the forwards on
00:16:22
the speed of clearing ball and when you
00:16:26
when you play against teams like
00:16:27
Australia and now it's South Africa
00:16:30
where they've got great big loose
00:16:31
forwards who stand one off. They they
00:16:34
used to try and kill the moss, kill the
00:16:36
rucks, have these out here. So that your
00:16:40
your inside backs who are always being
00:16:43
taken care of by these offengway, Tim
00:16:47
Gavin, Simon Pivan, great players and we
00:16:52
worked very hard on how do we negate
00:16:54
them? Well, we started that to be fair.
00:16:58
We started that back in 93 and we
00:17:01
developed a tactic called pick and go
00:17:04
and that's where the phrase comes from.
00:17:06
But a lot of them now they're not
00:17:09
they're not doing it right. We we used
00:17:12
to set up and you had to come in very
00:17:15
close, pick and go very close beside the
00:17:17
ruck so that those players had to come
00:17:20
in and engage. This oneoff passing and
00:17:23
running into people not achieving
00:17:25
anything. You see 18 phases and nobody's
00:17:28
any further ahead than they were. And it
00:17:31
was the way we used to clean out quite
00:17:33
often if the and and and I taught the
00:17:37
guys the sort of rucks to identify where
00:17:40
you could go in tight and then split it
00:17:43
open then about the fifth player could
00:17:46
come through pick it up and go straight
00:17:47
through the middle. These are the sort
00:17:49
of things that need to happen today. But
00:17:52
you know the referee's just let
00:17:53
everybody go to ground. You're not meant
00:17:55
to go to ground on top of the ball in
00:17:57
rugby, but everybody's doing it to
00:18:00
secure their own ball. They go over the
00:18:02
top of their own player on top of the
00:18:04
ball so nobody can get anywhere near it.
00:18:06
Well, yeah, that makes it a bit
00:18:09
difficult, but some of the things we
00:18:11
worked on would still apply. And you
00:18:15
know, I'm
00:18:17
make I make uh no apologies for it. I I
00:18:20
I don't think some of the coaches are
00:18:22
thinking hard enough about how to break
00:18:25
down this close in defense systems.
00:18:31
>> Jess, you're still passionate and
00:18:32
engaged about the game, aren't you? Um
00:18:34
we're recording this on a Monday
00:18:35
morning. Um yesterday morning the All
00:18:38
Blacks played Argentina. You get up
00:18:40
early to watch these games.
00:18:41
>> Of course.
00:18:42
>> Yeah. And you shouting at the TV or
00:18:43
>> No, no, I'm not. No, no. And I never
00:18:46
invite someone round to my house who I
00:18:48
know is going to have a comment on
00:18:51
everything. I I like to concentrate. I
00:18:54
I'll mutter plenty to myself and uh I
00:18:58
mean you see things you think the
00:19:00
referees are getting wrong,
00:19:02
>> you know, the players are not doing
00:19:03
right, but I keep it to myself. Yeah.
00:19:06
>> I I had a few more questions about your
00:19:08
your your playing days and then then we
00:19:09
can move on to the coaching thing. But
00:19:10
we we can since we're on the coaching
00:19:12
thing, we can we can stick on that. Or
00:19:14
do you want to Doesn't bother me.
00:19:16
>> Okay. Yeah. Best and worst moments is an
00:19:18
all lag.
00:19:23
>> Wow.
00:19:24
Yeah. Do you know um I came in after
00:19:29
I came in after uh the All Blacks had
00:19:32
lost the first test to the Lions in 71
00:19:36
and and that was a great Lions team.
00:19:38
There's no denying that. Second test in
00:19:40
Christ Church we won it and won it quite
00:19:43
comfortably and Kpatrick Ian Kpatrick
00:19:46
scored the try from the other end of the
00:19:47
earth. Um was fabulous try 55 m I think
00:19:52
he ran pushing people off left, right
00:19:54
and center. Um and we deserve to win
00:19:57
that. Then
00:19:59
we played at Wellington and that was my
00:20:04
worst memory that the team could not
00:20:07
well there was two I'll start in the
00:20:09
buildup.
00:20:11
We had training and for some reason or
00:20:12
other Ivan Vdanovich thought must have
00:20:14
thought we weren't fit enough and he
00:20:16
thought he could get us fit on Thursday
00:20:18
and we went to his old schools and the
00:20:20
the mud was about 6 in deep and round
00:20:23
and round and round this paddock we ran
00:20:25
for half an hour. Well, pretty much all
00:20:29
of the team could hardly walk the next
00:20:31
day. And and to be fair, we took the
00:20:34
field not in very good physical shape at
00:20:37
all. Legs, muscles, tight, sore muscles.
00:20:41
Um I think I scored the only try for the
00:20:44
All Blacks in that game, but I missed a
00:20:45
simple kick. I I I think I scored about
00:20:48
15 m to the right of the uprightes and
00:20:52
then missed the conversion.
00:20:54
Uh that was probably my biggest
00:20:56
disappointment because the All Blacks
00:20:59
that day could not be sharp and
00:21:02
aggressive and so on because of what
00:21:04
we'd been through on that muddy ground
00:21:06
on the Thursday.
00:21:08
>> Who who did better um after match
00:21:10
strengs, All Blacks of the 70s or All
00:21:12
Blacks of the '90s?
00:21:16
>> 90s. Really? Really?
00:21:20
We
00:21:22
>> we had a beer sponsor that was uh battle
00:21:25
one.
00:21:25
>> Well, Kevin Robertson, he was a great
00:21:27
friend of the team uh from New Zealand
00:21:31
Breweries and uh he he used to make sure
00:21:34
we were well stocked up. But when I say
00:21:38
the '9s, um, the boys could handle it.
00:21:44
And they only like if you were playing
00:21:47
the following Tuesday, if we're on tour,
00:21:49
for example, and you were playing the
00:21:50
following Tuesday,
00:21:52
no, they the judges in the courtrooms
00:21:54
weren't allowed court sessions weren't
00:21:57
allowed to pick on you.
00:21:58
>> But if you had played and uh there was
00:22:01
some funny moments or whatever, you got
00:22:04
a hammering. Mhm.
00:22:06
>> But uh I mean I that that was one place
00:22:09
where I had no protection. So I used to
00:22:12
get my share of punishment as well and I
00:22:15
think the players appreciated that. I
00:22:17
never outside
00:22:19
formal team stuff. I never pulled rank.
00:22:23
>> I as far as I was concerned I was just
00:22:25
one of the boys and had to comply the
00:22:28
same as them. But you know whatever.
00:22:30
>> And I think the players appreciated that
00:22:33
also. Yeah. So, you took over in uh 1991
00:22:37
after um Chris Wy and and John Hart
00:22:39
failed to win the Rugby World Cup. Um
00:22:42
what was your goal then when you took
00:22:43
over? What were you going to do
00:22:44
differently?
00:22:46
>> Well, the first thing was that the team
00:22:48
had to be rebuilt because
00:22:51
unfortunately for Alex, those players he
00:22:55
had built a hell of a strong team and a
00:22:57
hell of an impressive record. And by the
00:23:00
time that 91 World Cup came around, they
00:23:03
were just falling. Many of them were
00:23:05
falling off the other side
00:23:07
>> and they didn't quite have and and there
00:23:09
was
00:23:11
I don't know there seemed to be a bit of
00:23:13
an Oakland Canterbury
00:23:16
conflict in the in in that All Blackton
00:23:19
uh team in 91. But but those players
00:23:22
were were going off the off the good
00:23:25
side. So when I took over, I knew my
00:23:29
first priority was we had to select the
00:23:33
right players but rebuild the all black
00:23:36
team. So we took a big punt. We there
00:23:39
was quite a few of those older players
00:23:41
we left out in in ' 92 and some of them
00:23:46
like Sir Foxy um and um Steve Mcdal and
00:23:51
players like that we kept in
00:23:53
>> because you know to take advantage of
00:23:56
their experience and Foxy is a great
00:23:58
team man and and so was Steve Mcdal.
00:24:00
they wanted to help the players around
00:24:03
them and so
00:24:06
that the aim was uh and and uh the aim
00:24:11
was the next World Cup. It wasn't this
00:24:15
year. We had to try and maintain the
00:24:17
pride of the All Blacks in winning
00:24:19
games, but we had three years or or I
00:24:24
gave myself two and a half years to
00:24:26
rebuild that team and and we struggled
00:24:30
with some positions.
00:24:32
Couldn't settle on a 5'8 first 58 after
00:24:35
Foxy. and nobody was sort of standing up
00:24:38
and then at the last minute who comes
00:24:40
along Andrew Mertton
00:24:43
>> you know um there was there was things
00:24:45
like that but that happened we we had
00:24:48
the same problem with fullback we we
00:24:50
tried a few they didn't
00:24:53
they didn't take the elevation up to
00:24:55
test level as well as we'd hoped they
00:24:58
would and then Glenn Osman turned up you
00:25:01
know the year before so we were lucky
00:25:04
from that perspective
00:25:06
And um they all and and Jonah of course
00:25:10
>> not we we now this is an interesting one
00:25:13
cuz we
00:25:15
I was told about Jonah by uh a gentleman
00:25:18
by the name of De Smith who was manager
00:25:20
for the New Zealand secondary school ste
00:25:23
and he said you got to have a look at
00:25:24
this kid he's uh 18 now he's just
00:25:29
phenomenal rugby player. So Earl and I
00:25:32
went off to um
00:25:35
where was it? Pokawia it might have been
00:25:37
the sevens tournament that year he was
00:25:40
playing and we looked at each other
00:25:42
after we'd seen him in a couple of games
00:25:44
and I said to what are you thinking? He
00:25:47
said I reckon I'm thinking the same as
00:25:48
you. I said wing? He said yes. Not a
00:25:53
number eight. And here was the
00:25:56
reasoning. He had this incredible talent
00:25:59
which we all know about but atund I
00:26:03
think he was about 110 kgs at that stage
00:26:06
but so were so was Tim Gavin and so was
00:26:09
Willie Offengway and so was Rodba from
00:26:12
England and England was one of the teams
00:26:15
>> we specifically feared in that coming
00:26:19
into that World Cup and we had a bit of
00:26:21
payback for them so we said he's not
00:26:23
going to be able to give us that magic
00:26:25
as a lose forward. So, let we've got two
00:26:28
years to make a wing out of him.
00:26:31
And boy,
00:26:34
he he he
00:26:36
did some very good things in 94 with a
00:26:39
ball in hand. Come 95,
00:26:43
I said to him, you can go and play in
00:26:47
the sevens. I'd like you to go and play
00:26:49
in the sevens. Now, there's two reasons
00:26:51
for that. Uh we knew he'd get fit
00:26:54
playing sevens. very very fit cuz the
00:26:56
seventh coach at that time was really
00:26:58
tough.
00:26:59
>> Titch a titch and I think he was harder
00:27:01
on the players than I was and that's
00:27:03
saying something about fitness but he
00:27:05
was ruthless so and he he would work on
00:27:09
those B ball skills that Jonah needed.
00:27:14
He thought we'd basically left him out
00:27:17
of the All Blacks. So no way. And um who
00:27:22
did I get? Might have been Rushy. I got
00:27:24
to have a word to him and say, "You you
00:27:26
encourage him just to keep going,
00:27:28
Russia. We're not We still want him. We
00:27:30
just This Sevens is all about making you
00:27:33
a better player." So anyway, he he stuck
00:27:36
in there. Came down to Deneden and
00:27:38
played in a North South game and just
00:27:41
ripped it apart. And he he it was like
00:27:44
being in that sevens and then coming
00:27:47
back to 15s. He realized what his role
00:27:50
was as a wing. and uh well the rest is
00:27:53
history.
00:27:54
>> Yeah. And from you've dropped some
00:27:56
amazing names in just in that last
00:27:58
answer. Um you know Osborne Merens Lomu
00:28:02
how does um a a 50 whatever year old you
00:28:06
know Caucasian man from Otago jail or
00:28:08
connect with like an 18year-old South
00:28:10
Oakland tongen 46 please
00:28:14
I think oh late 40s. Um my bad. Uh
00:28:20
well, because I'd been involved like I
00:28:22
had an incredibly successful
00:28:26
three years with my club team,
00:28:27
>> we we won the uh it target competition
00:28:31
three years in a row and I don't I think
00:28:34
in the in the second two years I think
00:28:36
we only lost one goat and so I've gone
00:28:41
from player
00:28:43
to a year as an assistant coach then the
00:28:45
coach and I'm dealing with many of the
00:28:48
same players. players that I actually
00:28:49
played with. And then I then I moved on
00:28:52
to At Targetago and um
00:28:57
I I think there's something I might just
00:28:59
throw in here.
00:29:00
>> After two years with Southern I was
00:29:03
invited to be the assistant coach with a
00:29:05
target. Now the coach at the time and
00:29:07
there's no don't want any names but the
00:29:09
coach at the time had a different
00:29:12
philosophy on how the game should be
00:29:14
played than I did. So I said to the
00:29:16
chairman of the Itago Rugby Union,
00:29:18
"Look, it's no there's no point. I mean,
00:29:21
I'm going to say what I think and it's
00:29:24
going to be at odds with the coach. It'd
00:29:27
be better if I, you know, get someone
00:29:29
that'll work better with him on that. I
00:29:31
I' I'd work with him, but I'd have my
00:29:34
say as well."
00:29:36
So I actually turned that down. And then
00:29:40
the following year uh the chairman came
00:29:43
back to me and he said well well we'd
00:29:45
like to make you coach this year will
00:29:47
you go for that and I said absolutely.
00:29:49
>> I said I've done my three years at my
00:29:51
club got some success I need another
00:29:53
challenge.
00:29:55
>> So uh that's how and and so that kept me
00:30:00
you know I I because I was coaching all
00:30:03
the way through till the time I got the
00:30:06
All Blacks. Of course I could relate to
00:30:08
those younger players because I never
00:30:10
got out of the habit of doing it.
00:30:12
>> Yeah, I'm thinking like different
00:30:14
personality types as well like you
00:30:15
mentioned um you know Glenn Osborne and
00:30:17
Andrew Merens like they No, they were
00:30:19
pranksters. They were Americans, right?
00:30:21
>> Yeah. Lara, did you um Yeah. Did you
00:30:23
enjoy that or did you find that
00:30:24
tiresome? No. Loved it.
00:30:27
>> And uh John Timmy was another one. and
00:30:29
and Mark Ellis, I tell you that they
00:30:33
here we'd be building up to a test match
00:30:35
and those two would be competing against
00:30:37
each other doing 100 press ups or
00:30:40
whatever, you know. And I said, "Listen,
00:30:42
guys, save that for Sundays and Mondays.
00:30:46
Don't you doing it on Thursdays when we
00:30:48
got a big test match coming up?" Well,
00:30:50
one day we had a test match in Deneden
00:30:53
and I see Alice towards the end of
00:30:55
practice. I see Alice and Timu. We're
00:30:58
down at uh Logan Park and I see them
00:31:01
disappearing around behind the
00:31:03
university club pavilions there and I
00:31:06
just knew what was going to be going on
00:31:07
and I thought, "Oh no, I'm not going to
00:31:09
go round."
00:31:10
Well, when they come back, I said, "How
00:31:12
many?"
00:31:17
And you you just even though I felt that
00:31:21
it probably wasn't best for them to be
00:31:22
doing that that that was those guys and
00:31:25
they had to be able to do it. Fitzy
00:31:28
understood Sean Fitzpatrick understood
00:31:30
me very well. So so did a few of the
00:31:32
senior players, Zinny and so on and and
00:31:36
they
00:31:37
they sort of they were the conduit
00:31:41
between me and and the the younger
00:31:44
players and I think they were the ones
00:31:46
that said don't don't be frightened of
00:31:48
Lori be frightened of them at practice
00:31:51
because you do something wrong you'll
00:31:53
pay but you know have a beer with them
00:31:56
and so on and and I got on I got on
00:31:59
pretty well I think within players out
00:32:01
outside of the official part of being
00:32:05
>> Yeah. Um, speaking of Mark Ellis, um,
00:32:08
there's a story I've heard that at the
00:32:09
95 World Cup where he played against
00:32:11
Japan and scored six tries, which is
00:32:13
still really to this day. Did you tear
00:32:14
him a new one for that?
00:32:17
>> No. I I thought I thought you I thought
00:32:19
I heard him in a podcast saying you like
00:32:20
you told him off like for being selfish
00:32:23
or Yeah. Yeah. But that was a joke.
00:32:27
There there was a couple of if you have
00:32:29
a look at that and as a matter of fact
00:32:31
where was it not that long ago was on TV
00:32:34
those six tries and there were two times
00:32:38
where he beat people that he if if that
00:32:43
their fullback had been a bit sharper he
00:32:44
would have tackled him when he had a a
00:32:47
man running free outside him. So uh I
00:32:51
think I did say something to him about
00:32:54
that but but it was joking.
00:32:56
I also congratulated him on, you know,
00:32:59
breaking a he was sensational on his
00:33:01
feet that day.
00:33:02
>> He was good. Um, a previous podcast
00:33:04
guest is um Rick Citizo who was your
00:33:07
first media liaison officer. Um, he told
00:33:10
a story, I forget the whole backstory,
00:33:12
but had done something to piss you off
00:33:13
when he was a journalist. Like he
00:33:15
stitched you up and he admitted he
00:33:16
stitched you up and then he got given
00:33:17
the All Black the All Black's very first
00:33:20
ever media leazison job without you
00:33:22
without being run past you. Um, and
00:33:24
according to him, um, you you hop on the
00:33:27
team bus and he's sitting there and you
00:33:29
turn to, I think Fitzy or JK and you
00:33:31
say, "What's that prick doing on the
00:33:32
bus?"
00:33:34
>> Does that sound right?
00:33:35
>> Yeah, that sounds about right.
00:33:36
>> Yeah. And then, um, uh, yeah, according
00:33:38
to Rick, uh, JK and Fitzy said to him,
00:33:41
um, uh, Lori doesn't have to like you,
00:33:43
but do a great job and he'll learn to
00:33:44
respect you.
00:33:46
>> Yeah, I got to like Rick. Um, you know,
00:33:49
it's it's some of these journos. I I I
00:33:53
don't want to have a general crack at
00:33:54
jouos, but some of them know they're
00:33:57
being dishonest when they write
00:33:59
[ __ ]
00:34:00
And that that was the bit that annoyed
00:34:03
me. If if if they're prepared to do
00:34:05
that, well, what are they prepared to do
00:34:08
in ordinary life when they're not
00:34:10
writing? Rick was an exception. He
00:34:13
turned out uh to be a confidant of mine.
00:34:17
Uh, I think he did that job extremely
00:34:20
well and and he often forewarned me
00:34:23
about what was going to be coming. I I
00:34:26
And I like Rick and
00:34:28
>> Yeah.
00:34:29
>> Yeah. Oh, he won you over, eh?
00:34:31
>> Yeah, he did.
00:34:32
>> He He chipped away. Yeah. Okay. So, um,
00:34:35
the 90 1995 Rugby World Cup.
00:34:37
>> Now, I just want to make a point. That's
00:34:40
an example of if a senior player comes
00:34:42
to me with a reasonable thing to say,
00:34:46
I'll take notice of it. And and that's
00:34:49
an example of it.
00:34:50
>> Yeah. I Yeah. Speaking of um Yes. So, we
00:34:54
mentioned um JK just then, Sir John
00:34:56
Kerwin. Um Sir Michael Jones is another
00:34:58
one. The these these are like legendary
00:35:01
All Blacks and they're careers that you
00:35:03
had to had to end. How's how's that like
00:35:06
how are those conversations? Uh they're
00:35:09
incredibly difficult. I didn't not with
00:35:11
Michael Jones. I didn't end his career.
00:35:14
He he was
00:35:17
I think there was a problem with South
00:35:19
Africa because he couldn't play on
00:35:20
Sundays and we had a couple of Sunday
00:35:22
games. Um
00:35:24
he he is a fabulous guy. Uh Michael and
00:35:27
I him and I got on very well together
00:35:29
and I he was a he was a player that I
00:35:31
quite often talk to. How do I talk to
00:35:34
Inger about this? you know, the the the
00:35:37
the other island boys who who are very
00:35:41
respectful of authority and you you've
00:35:44
just got to be careful how you talk to
00:35:46
them so you don't do any damage.
00:35:49
>> And and Michael was a big help to me and
00:35:51
quite often I'd ask him to go and have a
00:35:53
chat to so and so about something. Um
00:35:58
JK
00:36:00
uh great player and I you know I so
00:36:03
respected him as a player and he he I
00:36:07
can't remember the exact circumstances
00:36:09
now but I I think he was I think he was
00:36:12
ready to retire anyway.
00:36:16
Um, was the same with Foxy, you know, it
00:36:18
it it was a very I asked Foxy how keen
00:36:22
he was to go on the Northern Tour at the
00:36:26
end of 93
00:36:29
and um he wasn't that keen. He was
00:36:33
building a business and and and we sort
00:36:36
of mutually agreed then it's probably
00:36:38
the right time for him to end his all
00:36:40
black career.
00:36:41
>> Great great All black as he was. Both of
00:36:44
them were great. Yeah.
00:36:45
>> Yeah. These things like I'm um I'm just
00:36:48
intrigued by this stuff because in my in
00:36:49
my own private life, I actively avoid
00:36:51
and put off tough conversations. When
00:36:53
you're in a position like that, you're
00:36:54
forced to have these tough conversations
00:36:56
week in week out.
00:36:57
>> Yeah. I just wonder how you go about
00:36:59
that. They they're always done face to
00:37:00
face or they done over the phone.
00:37:02
>> No, I don't don't like phone calls. Um,
00:37:05
sometimes you had to
00:37:09
uh it's it's it's best like
00:37:13
99% of rugby players are very very
00:37:16
honest. They're they're self-critical.
00:37:19
They know their own failings and when
00:37:22
you come to have a conversation like
00:37:23
that, they're probably half by expecting
00:37:26
it
00:37:27
>> and uh they respect the fact that you
00:37:31
front up and tell them face to face. M
00:37:35
>> yeah Ian Foster in his book he talks
00:37:37
about um having a conversation like this
00:37:39
with Dane Coohl's at the at the what was
00:37:42
it the 2019 oh no maybe the 2023 World
00:37:45
Cup telling him he wasn't required for
00:37:46
the semi and the final um and he he said
00:37:49
he got emotional and quite tearful in
00:37:51
that occasion. Were you were you quite
00:37:52
emotional about it or
00:37:55
>> of course I know
00:37:58
having played so much top level rugby
00:38:01
myself um you know what it feels like
00:38:06
and uh it was in incredibly difficult
00:38:10
for me to give players tough messages
00:38:14
>> not not just to say look you're no
00:38:16
longer required but even tough messages
00:38:18
around what they've got to do in the
00:38:20
team. M
00:38:22
>> um I you know from time to time and and
00:38:26
sometimes you had to do it uh a a player
00:38:30
would let himself down or the team down
00:38:32
or whatever and you pick your times to
00:38:35
do it when the when you want your team
00:38:38
to switch on and start building for the
00:38:40
Saturday right the team meeting you have
00:38:43
before you go to that practice is the
00:38:46
time to sort a couple of guys out if
00:38:48
they needed it. I'd never do it in an
00:38:52
unfair way. It had to be fair criticism,
00:38:56
but I was capable of being pretty blunt
00:38:58
with the players. And it just sort of
00:39:00
shocked many of the other guys that
00:39:02
Right, we better switch on now. He's in
00:39:05
one of those moods. So, we don't want to
00:39:07
get his Roth out on the training field
00:39:10
>> and uh don't poke the beer.
00:39:12
>> Exactly.
00:39:13
>> Yeah. So, um the 1995 Rugby World Cup.
00:39:17
>> Look, if I could just add to that.
00:39:18
>> Yeah, absolutely. I don't think today if
00:39:21
I c if I was starting a coaching career
00:39:23
today I'd be different
00:39:26
>> because people have changed and I I
00:39:30
think some of the methods I used
00:39:33
maybe wouldn't be that well accepted by
00:39:36
some players today
00:39:38
>> like yeah under under today's lens could
00:39:40
potentially be called bullying or
00:39:42
whatever there's there's more of an
00:39:43
emphasis these days on like
00:39:45
vulnerability and uh
00:39:47
>> you know um duty of here and things
00:39:49
things like that. But from what you were
00:39:50
explaining about the way you handled it,
00:39:52
it sounded like you were you were doing
00:39:53
that.
00:39:54
>> Yeah, I was always very mindful of the
00:39:56
players and the ones I picked on um you
00:40:00
know, Steve H. Hotton was one I got to
00:40:03
tell you this story cuz this is good.
00:40:04
Steve Hton was one quite often I'd pick
00:40:06
on. He he was a good rugby player in my
00:40:09
targetago team, but occasionally he
00:40:12
wouldn't be switched on. He have a
00:40:13
pretty average game. So he knew if he
00:40:17
had one of those days that he was going
00:40:19
to turn up to Tuesday's practice or
00:40:21
Monday, whenever it was and life was
00:40:24
going to be pretty tough for him. Well,
00:40:26
I come into Caris one day where we used
00:40:29
to change and go over to Bathgate Park.
00:40:31
Come in there and Steve comes up to me
00:40:34
and he said, "Uh,
00:40:37
Lori, I I've been advised to miss
00:40:39
training today. I've got very bad
00:40:42
bruising on my ankle." and he pulls up
00:40:44
his trousers and his ankle's all blue up
00:40:47
all around his ankle, you know. I said,
00:40:50
"Oh, okay, Steve. Um, hang on a minute.
00:40:54
Just sit down over there."
00:40:57
Ballpoint pen.
00:41:00
It's smudged it all over his ankle cuz
00:41:03
he cuz he knew what was coming.
00:41:07
>> Oh, that's hilarious. Oh my god, that's
00:41:09
so embarrassing. Being caught out. Yeah,
00:41:11
being caught out was a was the big
00:41:13
thing. Yeah.
00:41:14
>> So, um the 95 Rugby World Cup, uh this
00:41:17
is like career defining in a way. Um
00:41:19
yeah, the I think it was June this year
00:41:21
was the 30th anniversary. How was that
00:41:23
for you?
00:41:25
How often
00:41:26
one of my early podcast guests was Shane
00:41:28
Cameron and he he talked about his fight
00:41:30
with David to where he got knocked out
00:41:31
badly like I think in the first or
00:41:33
second round and he said um every day
00:41:36
for at least seven years afterwards he
00:41:37
thought about it. Oh, I've never stopped
00:41:40
thinking about that. And it it's not
00:41:42
that we lost.
00:41:45
>> It was a great game, mate.
00:41:46
>> It's not even how we lost.
00:41:48
>> Um I'll still maintain that Jonah would
00:41:51
have scored a try when he got pulled
00:41:53
back for a forward pass. It wasn't a
00:41:55
forward pass. Was close enough to that
00:41:57
22 m line. You know, when you study it
00:42:00
on TV,
00:42:01
>> certainly wouldn't have been called back
00:42:02
today. But however, having said that, um
00:42:07
we we went through that World Cup with
00:42:10
some incredible stats and incredible
00:42:12
performances. I mean, look what we did
00:42:13
to England, you know, and Scotland. We
00:42:16
won the Grand Slam there easily. Big, we
00:42:20
played Ireland first, then Wales, then
00:42:23
Scotland, then England, and uh that was
00:42:26
a real cleanup, particularly England. Um
00:42:32
and and we were all set to go like for
00:42:35
that final and
00:42:38
as was tradition, we'd leave the team to
00:42:41
their devices on a Thursday and the
00:42:44
management would go out to a restaurant
00:42:46
somewhere for for dinner. Well, we did
00:42:50
that. We came back in and come back into
00:42:53
the hotel. Standing by reception
00:42:57
was Zinzam Brooke.
00:42:59
And the minute I saw him, I turned to
00:43:01
Colin. I said, "There's problems."
00:43:04
And he said, "Oh, half the team are up
00:43:06
in the doc's room vomiting and they're
00:43:09
sick as hell." And if and and when we
00:43:13
went, we normally went and had a a a
00:43:17
little bit of a captain's run on a
00:43:19
Friday, the day before the game at the
00:43:21
venue we were going to be playing in. We
00:43:24
went out there and I I said to uh the
00:43:27
boys, look, we're not going to run.
00:43:29
We'll walk around the park and talk
00:43:31
about what our options are from the
00:43:34
various positions that uh you know,
00:43:37
because we're playing South Africa, we'd
00:43:39
have specific tactics for them. And um
00:43:43
after about quarter of an hour, I just
00:43:45
gave up
00:43:46
>> because the players couldn't
00:43:47
concentrate.
00:43:49
And I knew we were in real trouble. And
00:43:51
I said to Brian Lo, who was our campaign
00:43:54
manager there, I said, "Would we have
00:43:55
any show getting this delayed till
00:43:58
Sunday?" He said, "No,
00:44:02
too too much disruption to everything."
00:44:06
>> And he said, "I don't I think we'll try
00:44:09
and keep just keep it quiet." M so that
00:44:13
you you asked me what was one of the
00:44:15
worst moments in my playing career. Well
00:44:18
now the worst moment in my coaching
00:44:20
career was seeing that team go out and
00:44:23
play knowing that they probably couldn't
00:44:25
give better than 85%
00:44:29
because of what they'd been through. Now
00:44:31
there was three naughty boys.
00:44:35
uh Rush,
00:44:38
Eric Rush, I think Josh Crofeld, someone
00:44:41
else who who
00:44:45
didn't have the tea and coffee. They
00:44:48
went out and ate,
00:44:51
I think they had McDonald's or something
00:44:53
like that on the Thursday night and uh
00:44:58
and so they weren't sick.
00:45:01
>> Amazing. Amazing. and and and I think
00:45:03
Fitzy because he had uh Fitzy might have
00:45:08
had media commitments or something
00:45:10
before dinner and
00:45:13
by the time he came and had dinner, it
00:45:16
was a fresh batch of tea and coffee that
00:45:17
was put out. I'm convinced it was that
00:45:21
first batch of tea and coffee that
00:45:24
>> had been poisoned
00:45:25
>> cuz it's one of the one of the great
00:45:26
sort of um Kiwi sporting folk laws
00:45:29
folklore things. It's sort of up there
00:45:30
with um Chapel's underarm bowl to
00:45:32
Mcknney and cricket in 80 or 81 or
00:45:34
whatever it was. Do is there a Suzie?
00:45:37
Was there like an intentional food
00:45:39
poison? No. Let me tell you the real.
00:45:41
Yes, there was the there there's no
00:45:44
doubt that we were poisoned. Now, I'm
00:45:46
going to tell you a story and and this
00:45:49
confirmed it for me. Ion Edgar
00:45:53
uh who who was a great rugby follower
00:45:56
and and supported me all the way through
00:45:59
my rugby career, coaching career.
00:46:03
We were having at a dinner for something
00:46:06
target sportsman of the year or
00:46:08
something like that in Deneden and he
00:46:09
had just come back from the UK. This is
00:46:11
after the World Cup.
00:46:14
And as soon as I walked in, he came up
00:46:16
to me and he said, "Uh, I got something
00:46:19
that is informative for you." And I
00:46:21
said, "Yeah, what's that, Eon?" He said,
00:46:23
"The word in financial circles in London
00:46:27
is that the bookies
00:46:32
arrange for your food poisoning."
00:46:36
Now
00:46:38
the New Zealand Rugby Union weren't
00:46:40
prepared to do anything about it. Richie
00:46:41
Guy was chairman and I understood the
00:46:44
reasons.
00:46:45
So my wife was South African. So
00:46:49
we hired a private detective over there
00:46:52
ourselves
00:46:53
and asked him to go and find out uh if
00:46:57
he could what had happened.
00:47:00
And the the end result of that was that
00:47:06
uh there was a waitress
00:47:10
that was employed on the Wednesday
00:47:13
and and after Thursday she just
00:47:17
disappeared completely
00:47:20
from the job from the hotel where she
00:47:22
had a permanent job.
00:47:25
and
00:47:28
the the private detective and and the
00:47:30
other staff were pretty convinced that
00:47:33
if something was done that that she had
00:47:35
probably done it. And there's two
00:47:37
theories on what it could be. Uh it
00:47:40
could have been a a a chemical thing,
00:47:42
but there was a an argument that it was
00:47:44
probably a biological a a wild plant in
00:47:49
South Africa. I've forgotten the name of
00:47:51
it. uh if it's put in with your tea
00:47:54
leaves and that sort of thing, it it can
00:47:56
lead to this sort of poisoning, food
00:47:58
poisoning.
00:47:59
And he said she had a name like
00:48:04
Suki Su Soi Suzi, something like that.
00:48:08
He said, you know, the black. Now, I was
00:48:12
silly enough to mention that to Bob H
00:48:16
when he wrote this book. And and so
00:48:18
that's where the Suzie came from.
00:48:22
Um
00:48:23
and and I said to him it was it was only
00:48:27
you know a name something like that. I
00:48:29
didn't say susie was a name or to hell I
00:48:32
never said anything to him about it.
00:48:34
>> Yeah. All all things considered it was a
00:48:35
a hell of a final though. Right. 80
00:48:37
minutes not enough to separate the two
00:48:38
best teams in the world and then 20
00:48:40
minutes of of extra time. But do you do
00:48:43
you do you ever put much thought into
00:48:44
like how different life would look now
00:48:46
if the outcome had been different? Like
00:48:47
you'd be a sir. No doubt.
00:48:49
>> Yeah. that wouldn't bother me. Um,
00:48:55
uh,
00:48:57
I don't know. You see,
00:49:00
life probably would have been different
00:49:02
for a few years after it, but I've I
00:49:06
very rarely go to All Black reunions. I
00:49:09
I've step right away from that sort of
00:49:14
life now. And uh I don't I don't I don't
00:49:18
think it I don't think what I'm doing
00:49:20
now would be any different.
00:49:22
>> And and I sort of I'd rather not people
00:49:25
talk to me about when when I'm playing
00:49:28
golf or things like that. I don't want
00:49:30
people telling me, "Oh, you had a great
00:49:32
career. You did this. You did that or
00:49:34
anything. I just want to be treated as a
00:49:36
normal person."
00:49:37
And um and I'm lucky because uh you know
00:49:42
at Milbrook and it was the same at the
00:49:44
Hills was only very occasionally someone
00:49:46
would ask a polite question you know
00:49:49
about about something and if if people
00:49:53
if people would ask me what was my
00:49:55
opinion of the All Blacks on Saturday.
00:49:56
Yes, of course I'll give an opinion
00:49:59
>> but I don't really want to talk about my
00:50:01
past my career.
00:50:03
But but having said that, I'm I'm very
00:50:06
proud of some of the things I achieved
00:50:09
as a as a player and as a coach. Oh, one
00:50:12
one thing we we've learned. So 95 was
00:50:14
only the third ever Rugby World Cup. So
00:50:17
we I don't think we had an appreciation
00:50:18
even back then about how bloody hard
00:50:20
these things are to win. So I mean
00:50:23
finishing finishing second in extra time
00:50:24
with um you know food poisoning is um
00:50:27
yeah. What was the reaction like when
00:50:29
you came back? I've had Hardy on the
00:50:30
podcast and he had a terrible time after
00:50:32
99 and spiral into a deep depression
00:50:34
after the public backlash. But were were
00:50:38
the public more sympathetic with you
00:50:39
because it was such a good tournament?
00:50:40
>> Yeah. No, they were. And I believe that
00:50:43
the public I I had no negative backlash
00:50:46
whatsoever.
00:50:48
And I think uh the public realized I
00:50:51
mean when you see Craig Dow and Jeff
00:50:54
Wilson vomiting on the side of the field
00:50:57
>> it's only someone like Keith Quinn that
00:51:00
would say the story was made up. Um you
00:51:04
know that that I found
00:51:07
unbelievable that
00:51:08
>> did he did he say it was made up?
00:51:09
>> He said that publicly. Yes. Um,
00:51:13
I I I
00:51:16
think uh I think people were incredibly
00:51:20
sympathetic and they believed that we
00:51:23
were the best team at the World Cup
00:51:25
anyway. I mean, Andrew Mertens had a
00:51:29
fantastic tournament. He missed a drop
00:51:31
goal just before the end of full time.
00:51:35
Uh missed by about two feet.
00:51:39
uh and then
00:51:41
their first 58
00:51:44
he gets one
00:51:46
and uh in extra time. So it's just the
00:51:50
way it is.
00:51:51
>> We if if we had won that game I would
00:51:55
have said that's one of the greatest
00:51:56
sporting achievements of all time given
00:51:59
the circumstances that faced those those
00:52:02
blacks.
00:52:04
Did you did you um get to rub shoulders
00:52:07
or have anything to do with um Nelson
00:52:08
Mandela at that time?
00:52:09
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, in '92 I did. Uh he
00:52:12
he it was first year on uh uh that he
00:52:16
was president I think and that that's
00:52:19
what our tour was about.
00:52:22
>> Um oh lovely lovely man
00:52:25
>> was he? And and I I did I was at one
00:52:28
dinner that he was at in 95 as well and
00:52:32
he made a point of coming to talk to me
00:52:34
which I thought was really nice. Um
00:52:37
>> yeah, lovely person.
00:52:39
>> Yeah,
00:52:40
>> one of those people that just has an
00:52:41
aura about him when you meet him.
00:52:42
>> Yes, definitely. And you know, when you
00:52:45
when you meet him and you see him like
00:52:47
that and and you hear him speaking, you
00:52:49
can probably see why he survived
00:52:52
imprisonment and came out without any
00:52:55
bitter feelings. He you know, he he he
00:52:59
was fantastic.
00:53:02
>> Oh, awesome. And were you happy with the
00:53:04
the actor who was cast to play you in
00:53:06
the Invictus movie? I haven't seen it.
00:53:09
>> What? How have you not? Well, are you
00:53:11
not curious to see to see what
00:53:14
>> the act of I saw shorts of it somewhere
00:53:17
and I I Yeah. No.
00:53:19
>> Well, you got no desire to watch it
00:53:20
because you know how the movie ends or
00:53:24
>> I would have had trouble believing
00:53:27
uh that it was a true
00:53:30
um a true account of of what happened.
00:53:35
And so I didn't want to get infuriated
00:53:37
by going to see someone's
00:53:40
twisted version.
00:53:41
>> Yeah.
00:53:42
>> So the the locker room after that 95
00:53:44
World Cup final, what what's that like?
00:53:46
What's your I mean you're you're
00:53:47
disappointed. You're hurting as much as
00:53:48
the team, but do you flip into like
00:53:51
cheerleader mode or like supportive dad
00:53:53
mode?
00:53:55
>> More supportive.
00:53:57
>> Um and Colin Me was very very good with
00:54:01
the guys.
00:54:02
>> Yeah. Uh they,
00:54:05
you know, of all the games we played,
00:54:07
they probably played their heart out
00:54:09
more in that final than any of the
00:54:11
others.
00:54:13
>> Uh there was just a limit as to how much
00:54:15
they could give, you know. Yeah, it's
00:54:19
>> Yeah,
00:54:21
I I I
00:54:23
still feel so sorry for those players
00:54:26
whenever this is talked about. Uh I hurt
00:54:31
for those players.
00:54:32
cuz they're the ones that actually I
00:54:35
mean we all had the illness. I had it.
00:54:37
>> Colin and Brian uh had it. Colin was
00:54:41
pretty badly affected. Um but
00:54:45
we we we we all
00:54:48
like I in particular felt sorry for the
00:54:51
players that had to go out on the field
00:54:54
knowing they couldn't do what they were
00:54:56
doing a week earlier.
00:54:57
>> Yeah. Would you would you have wanted to
00:55:00
carry on as coach after that tournament
00:55:02
or was it was it just not an option?
00:55:03
That was a time where you get one crack
00:55:05
at the World Cup and if you don't win
00:55:06
you're you're out. Well, Colin thought
00:55:08
he could fix that. Colin thought I could
00:55:10
get reappointed.
00:55:11
>> And I said to him, I look, I'm mentally
00:55:16
drained. If I could have a year off and
00:55:19
then come back, I'd possibly do that.
00:55:22
Um,
00:55:24
but I I I was drained and I realized I
00:55:28
just had to get on with the next stage
00:55:30
in my life.
00:55:33
>> Did Yeah. That was the year it went um
00:55:35
from amateur to professional. Right.
00:55:37
>> Yeah. But I want to make another point
00:55:39
here.
00:55:41
When I coached, I always coached the
00:55:44
forwards because I I always right from
00:55:46
back in my club days, I coached forwards
00:55:49
because if they didn't do it right, then
00:55:51
you never had a game. Might as well not
00:55:53
have had a backline. Um coached the
00:55:56
backs
00:55:58
and we had a fitness trainer.
00:56:01
We didn't have 20 other coaches floating
00:56:04
around the team like they do these days.
00:56:07
So we Earl and I obviously were under
00:56:10
far more pressure
00:56:12
>> than what coaches are today because of
00:56:16
we had to do all the work.
00:56:18
We could call on a scrum coach if we
00:56:21
needed to. We could call on a um
00:56:24
I I remember calling Andy Aiden and in
00:56:27
one test buildup to sort out a line out
00:56:30
problem or to give us some ideas on a
00:56:33
line out problem.
00:56:35
So, uh, but by and large we were the
00:56:39
coaches.
00:56:41
>> You got a lot done, didn't you?
00:56:42
>> We did get a lot done.
00:56:43
>> Did you Did you um cuz you sort of
00:56:45
missed the whole professional thing. Did
00:56:46
you financially did you do okay out of
00:56:47
the game?
00:56:48
>> No.
00:56:48
>> No. So, just huge amount of sacrifice
00:56:50
putting your career. And
00:56:52
>> Louis Lake paid me okay when I when I
00:56:55
went and coached the Lions in South
00:56:58
Africa.
00:56:59
Uh
00:57:01
but
00:57:03
uh and then I had those two years
00:57:05
coaching the Highlanders, but you know
00:57:08
that that was pretty small money really.
00:57:11
>> Um no, I never made much money out of
00:57:15
rugby at all.
00:57:16
>> But I'll say this, rugby definitely
00:57:19
opened the door for me in business and
00:57:22
and things like that.
00:57:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. So 2001 you move over to
00:57:25
South Africa um to coach the cats. What
00:57:27
what's that like? That was a dangerous
00:57:28
place then, right? Did you Did you feel
00:57:30
it? The security aspect
00:57:33
>> where they uh the flat they put me in
00:57:36
was a pretty safe area. And you know, I
00:57:41
was well advised what not to do and what
00:57:44
and and where not to go. So I I never I
00:57:48
never saw any violence. I never felt
00:57:53
any pressure at any time. Never felt.
00:57:56
But I made sure I wasn't out at night on
00:57:58
the streets or anything like that.
00:58:00
>> Um,
00:58:02
and uh, there was several of the players
00:58:05
in the same complex that that I was
00:58:08
staying in. Uh, so no, no, no, it it was
00:58:13
good. By and large, I enjoyed my time
00:58:16
over there. It was it was interesting.
00:58:18
was a challenge to uh coach a
00:58:23
nationality that I' not had any
00:58:25
experience with and they think
00:58:27
differently to us about rugby and so on
00:58:31
and so forth. They very quickly the team
00:58:35
I had for the Curry Cup which which we
00:58:37
won. They very quickly uh uh fitted into
00:58:42
the way I coached
00:58:45
>> and enjoyed it
00:58:46
>> and loved it. And I still hear, believe
00:58:48
it or not, I still hear from time to
00:58:50
time from some of those players. You
00:58:52
remember Dean Hall, he he was a wing for
00:58:54
South Africa. He went on, I picked him
00:58:56
up as about a 19year-old, promoted him
00:58:59
to Curry Cup Rugby. He's a big strong
00:59:02
lad for a wing. Great player. Then he
00:59:04
obviously went on to become a a very
00:59:06
good spring. Um, lo and behold, he
00:59:10
WhatsApp me oh would have been month ago
00:59:13
probably
00:59:14
>> see how I was getting on and
00:59:16
>> tennisport is another one I'd heard from
00:59:18
and um yeah I suppose the nature of the
00:59:22
job like you're not going to be mates
00:59:24
with everyone there are going to be
00:59:25
personality clashes and there's you
00:59:26
haven't read your own book so I'm
00:59:27
guessing you haven't read the um Rasi
00:59:29
Arasimus book
00:59:31
>> no
00:59:33
I've got I've got I've got a quote here
00:59:34
from from that book he said um I I
00:59:37
learned I I learned from the mistakes
00:59:38
both of us made. I won't have players
00:59:40
who behave as badly as I did feeling
00:59:42
entitled just because they're playing
00:59:43
well. Um how Lori coached and analyzed
00:59:46
is exactly how I don't want to be as a
00:59:47
coach. Um yes, he's admitting some of
00:59:50
his own mistakes. But yeah, is that hard
00:59:53
when there's like personality clashes
00:59:55
with players, players that you just
00:59:56
don't gel with? Well, it's funny he says
00:59:59
that because Andre Fenta, who was a
01:00:01
great all black,
01:00:03
uh I was talking to him one day and he
01:00:06
said, "Russy's doing exactly what you
01:00:09
did that he hated to do and he refused
01:00:11
to do. He's doing it with his players."
01:00:14
So, you can take that comment for what
01:00:17
it's worth.
01:00:18
>> Yeah. Um the only reason I had conflict
01:00:22
with Russy, it wasn't about rugby
01:00:24
issues. Uh it was that he didn't want to
01:00:27
train.
01:00:29
>> And if I'd let he he maybe he kept
01:00:32
himself fit, I don't know. But if I'd
01:00:35
let the whole team be as slack as he
01:00:37
wanted to be wanted to be,
01:00:40
there's no way we would have won games.
01:00:42
There's a lot of those players were big
01:00:45
South Africans like you see and you
01:00:47
you've got to work hard to get them fit
01:00:48
enough.
01:00:50
>> And and it's, you know, uh yeah.
01:00:55
It's um Yeah. It must be hard when when
01:00:57
there's players that you've had like a
01:00:58
falling out with to write about you in a
01:00:59
book and it's like, you know, it's a
01:01:01
free hit really. There's nothing you can
01:01:03
do to defend yourself.
01:01:05
>> No. Well,
01:01:05
>> does it not bother you?
01:01:07
>> Not coming from him because he's not a
01:01:10
No, seriously, he's a he he is a very
01:01:12
dishonest person
01:01:14
>> and I'm not going to get into it now,
01:01:15
but he he had a lot of
01:01:18
>> personal failings
01:01:19
>> in his social life and that sort of
01:01:21
thing. Um
01:01:24
but it it it no it doesn't bother me
01:01:27
coming from you.
01:01:28
>> Yeah. Uh there was I didn't know
01:01:30
anything about this but um researching
01:01:32
this chat um so you came back and you're
01:01:35
coaching um the the Highlanders. Um did
01:01:38
you and Anton have there was some
01:01:40
falling out with Anton?
01:01:41
>> Oh yeah. Well it's it's another example
01:01:46
of
01:01:48
uh a player wanted wanting to do it his
01:01:51
way. Now, this is where I suddenly was
01:01:54
starting to realize, and I made a
01:01:56
comment right at the start of this
01:01:58
interview, if I if I coach now, I' i'd
01:02:01
probably have to be a little bit
01:02:02
different
01:02:04
uh and tolerant with players and than I
01:02:07
was in uh when I coached. Anton was
01:02:11
another player that didn't like being
01:02:13
told what to do. And yes, we had
01:02:17
differences of opinion on certain
01:02:20
things. Um,
01:02:24
yeah. I I didn't realize it was such a
01:02:27
big issue with him. He never he never
01:02:31
This is the bit that disappointed me. He
01:02:34
never came to me and said, "I disagree
01:02:36
with this or this or this. Instead, he
01:02:39
worked behind my back, which was not so
01:02:43
good."
01:02:43
>> Yeah. Dishonest.
01:02:44
>> Yeah.
01:02:45
>> Yeah.
01:02:46
>> Did Did your leadership style evolve
01:02:48
over the years?
01:02:49
uh it did but mainly mainly through
01:02:54
learning what worked and what didn't
01:02:56
work and so one of one of the I mean
01:03:02
in my early years coaching my club team
01:03:06
and coaching at Targetago because I had
01:03:08
played an awful lot more rugby than
01:03:11
those guys any of them probably knew
01:03:14
quite a lot more about rugby than they
01:03:16
did and what works and what doesn't
01:03:18
work. I was pretty dictatorial. But by
01:03:21
the time I got to the All Blacks,
01:03:24
uh I was regularly talking with people
01:03:28
like Frank Bunts and Fitzy and I Jones
01:03:32
and and the Brook Brothers, quite a few.
01:03:35
It's hard to mention all of them.
01:03:38
um about what we should do and and and
01:03:42
it come brings me back to the camp that
01:03:44
we had here in Queenstown
01:03:46
where I sent the players away and said
01:03:48
right you guys go and have an open
01:03:51
discussion without me and then I'd set
01:03:54
up a subcommittee of the senior players
01:03:57
could come back to me and report and I
01:04:00
don't want to know who said what. I just
01:04:02
want to know the content of of what was
01:04:05
said. When it all boiled down, I I
01:04:07
looked at Earl and Earl and I looked at
01:04:10
each other and smiled. Well, guys, got
01:04:13
to tell you what we've been doing
01:04:16
subliminally
01:04:17
has really got through to you guys cuz
01:04:19
that's exactly what Earl and I are
01:04:21
wanting to do with this team. We didn't
01:04:24
want to show the rest of the world how
01:04:26
the All Blacks were going to play at the
01:04:28
World Cup. We did a lot of preparation
01:04:31
stuff and something that worked and I
01:04:34
mentioned that game against Australia at
01:04:37
Carisbrook in 93 with a pick and go.
01:04:40
Well, in the way we cleaned out, we
01:04:43
didn't do that anymore. M
01:04:45
>> so that if because if we did it once,
01:04:50
you know, other coaches and that might
01:04:52
not pick up on it, but if we went
01:04:55
started, it became a part of our game
01:04:57
plan and they'd work out a way to stop
01:04:58
it.
01:05:00
>> So that so what they came back to us
01:05:03
with was exactly the way we wanted to
01:05:06
play the game.
01:05:08
That's got to be a hard thing to keep up
01:05:09
your sleeve as an all black coach,
01:05:10
especially um Yeah, because there's an
01:05:12
expectation to win the World Cup, but
01:05:14
there's also an expectation to win every
01:05:15
damn game along the way.
01:05:18
>> Yeah. Well,
01:05:20
yeah, but at that stage, I think we're
01:05:23
into about was that about the third or
01:05:25
fourth World Cup that had been played.
01:05:27
It it it appeared to us with what had
01:05:30
happened under with Alex. Um it appeared
01:05:35
to us that we had to be prepared to
01:05:38
sacrifice
01:05:40
some performances early on to get the
01:05:43
right players involved and get enough
01:05:46
experience under their belt
01:05:48
>> at that level to be able to give us
01:05:50
their best at the World Cup.
01:05:51
>> And that is in fact what happened. I
01:05:54
couldn't if I when I look back and if
01:05:57
you just take the final out because of
01:05:59
the way the players were, but you look
01:06:01
at all of the other games at the World
01:06:03
Cup,
01:06:05
if you'd told me three years earlier,
01:06:08
this is the way the team's going to end
01:06:10
up playing,
01:06:12
I'd have said that's exactly what we're
01:06:14
trying to achieve.
01:06:15
>> And we did. Earl like I I can't
01:06:20
emphasize enough on how important a role
01:06:23
Earl Curtain played. Um Earl's Earl's
01:06:27
Earl. He's different to me and he's
01:06:30
cruisy and he has his gin and lemon in
01:06:32
his pocket.
01:06:34
Whatever the sliced
01:06:37
lemon to put in his gin after at the
01:06:40
aftermatch function. But that's that's
01:06:42
Earl. But we got on like a house on fire
01:06:45
as we did when we played together. And
01:06:48
um
01:06:50
uh it it at the end of that World Cup,
01:06:54
we we were very happy at what we had
01:06:56
achieved. This is what we envisionaged
01:06:59
the All Blacks playing like. And we and
01:07:02
as I said earlier on, we changed the way
01:07:04
test rugby is played.
01:07:06
>> And and that is a legacy. Maybe that
01:07:08
maybe that's a legacy I'm most proud of.
01:07:10
>> Yeah.
01:07:12
Yeah, it's brilliant. I've got another
01:07:14
quote from um Pine Tree. Yep. Um Lori
01:07:18
brought honesty to the coaching role.
01:07:19
It's a hell of a job dropping players,
01:07:21
but he was always completely honest and
01:07:23
he expected honesty from those around
01:07:25
him. It upset him when he didn't get it.
01:07:27
I I just want to know is it is it
01:07:29
possible to be a great leader and be
01:07:31
popular and liked at the same time?
01:07:36
Do you know what
01:07:38
it is? It is very very possible to be
01:07:41
respected and then when the people you
01:07:46
are leading see you outside the battle
01:07:48
zone in a normal situation and they
01:07:52
realize oh you're not such a bad bugger
01:07:55
after all. Uh then I can say it it is
01:08:00
possible. Yes I say it is possible.
01:08:02
>> Who was there one player in particular
01:08:04
that you dreaded having hard
01:08:05
conversations with and why?
01:08:09
someone that you knew was going to react
01:08:10
badly if you were putting them on the
01:08:13
bench for a week or
01:08:16
>> No, I and I'll tell you why. I I I
01:08:18
nobody comes to mind. Okay? And I and
01:08:21
I'll tell you why. It comes back to what
01:08:23
Colin said in that quote. Um
01:08:27
the players I demanded honesty from the
01:08:30
players and the players knew that I was
01:08:34
100% honest. Even if I wasn't right, I
01:08:38
was saying what I honestly thought and
01:08:41
and I was giving everything I had to the
01:08:44
team and to the players. I taught a lot
01:08:47
of those players a lot of good things
01:08:49
about rugby. Made them better players
01:08:52
and they respected that.
01:08:55
>> I I mentioned on um Instagram that
01:08:57
you're coming on the podcast today.
01:08:58
You're not You don't have an Instagram
01:09:00
page?
01:09:00
>> No. No. Um there are so many questions
01:09:03
from people. Um they're sort of all over
01:09:05
the place, but we'll run through these.
01:09:07
Which all black players you've coached
01:09:09
would you most want beside you in a
01:09:11
tough game and why?
01:09:13
Um Fitzy
01:09:16
Zenzan Brookke both the Brook
01:09:20
um Frank Bunts both the Brook brothers
01:09:24
brothers. Uh Richard Low look I do you
01:09:28
know I would go through most of the team
01:09:30
and I'll tell you why. Uh because they
01:09:34
give it 100%
01:09:37
and what their job is meant to be
01:09:41
and they they they are honest in
01:09:44
themselves in the effort that they're
01:09:46
putting into a game of rugby.
01:09:49
See Richard Low is a very underrated
01:09:52
player.
01:09:54
Did you were you close to Was Kully on
01:09:57
your radar in in 95? Was he too young?
01:09:59
Did you?
01:10:00
>> No. In 95 unfortunately
01:10:02
uh Cully
01:10:05
uh
01:10:07
in 95 I think it was or beginning of 96
01:10:12
he starred in the sevens
01:10:14
>> and that was how John Hart picked him up
01:10:17
and replaced Glenn Osburn. Glenn Osman,
01:10:20
I think, played a few games with John,
01:10:22
but Cully came in that year. He wasn't
01:10:24
on the radar in 95.
01:10:28
>> Um, how do you want to be remembered in
01:10:30
New Zealand rugby? This is a question
01:10:32
from Instagram.
01:10:34
Um,
01:10:35
I just want to be remembered as someone
01:10:38
who gave everything he had to his
01:10:41
players, the team, and to New Zealand
01:10:44
rugby. That's all I want. that I I I I
01:10:48
did the best that I could.
01:10:51
>> Well, it has been a life of service for
01:10:53
the sport, hasn't it? As a player and a
01:10:54
coach,
01:10:55
>> like over so many decades as well.
01:10:57
>> Yeah. Well, it has and some of the
01:11:01
things that I I wonder at times not I
01:11:05
mean
01:11:07
not many people
01:11:10
have given as much to a sport in terms
01:11:13
of performance like I played more than
01:11:16
100 game I I think I played 180 first
01:11:18
class games I played
01:11:22
15 or 16 for a targetgo then I turn
01:11:25
around and coach a targetgo oh I don't
01:11:27
It might have been 140 games under
01:11:29
something. I can't remember. But
01:11:32
>> that's a long that's a hell of a long
01:11:34
period of time.
01:11:36
>> And I I you know, then I then I coached
01:11:39
the All Blacks. I I was on the New
01:11:42
Zealand Rugby Union coaching committee.
01:11:44
See, this is something people wouldn't
01:11:45
know. On their coaching committee for
01:11:48
about 10 years and under Bill Freeman.
01:11:53
And um I did I gave my life to it. M
01:11:57
>> and and and I can to this day I can say
01:12:00
that everything I did in rugby I did
01:12:03
with honesty
01:12:05
and in believing that what I was doing
01:12:08
was the best that I could do.
01:12:11
>> And that's how I would would like to be
01:12:13
remembered not so much by what I
01:12:16
achieved but what I gave.
01:12:20
I really like that. Yeah. Yeah, I
01:12:22
mentioned I had Sir Steve Hansen on the
01:12:23
podcast recently and um a lot of what
01:12:25
you've said is even though it's
01:12:26
different areas er areas um similar to
01:12:28
him it's like team first.
01:12:30
>> Yeah,
01:12:30
>> team first in everything and it sort of
01:12:32
it sounds like that's what you were
01:12:34
saying as well with all the decisions
01:12:35
you made. Well, let me tell you I'll
01:12:36
tell you another story.
01:12:39
Uh and and this is media.
01:12:43
Um
01:12:44
I used to protect my players even even
01:12:47
outside rugby. Now Ingera Tuigala was
01:12:50
one. Now, Inger had to live in a garage
01:12:53
at his at his family home
01:12:56
and uh I you know I I used to do what I
01:13:00
could could do for him. And um
01:13:05
Windgray wrote an article
01:13:08
and put it in the New Zealand Herald
01:13:11
about Inger, an all black Inger living
01:13:13
in a garage that embarrassed Inger so
01:13:16
much.
01:13:19
And you know, I had a crack at Win Gray
01:13:21
about that. I said, "Should you not have
01:13:23
run it past Inger or me first before you
01:13:26
wrote a story like that because of the
01:13:28
embarrassment it could cause to him?"
01:13:30
>> Didn't give a [ __ ]
01:13:33
Now, that's where I got offside with
01:13:35
quite a few of the media when they were
01:13:37
dishonest. I don't care how brutal on me
01:13:41
a Juno is if it's honest. You know, if
01:13:45
he's telling the truth, but when they
01:13:47
bend the truth and and you know, give
01:13:50
illinformed opinions that that's when I
01:13:53
used to get frustrated.
01:13:54
>> Yeah. Cuz you care about the players.
01:13:56
But I can't imagine how terrifying that
01:13:58
is getting a spray from Lorie Mains.
01:14:00
Well,
01:14:01
>> it'd be intimidating.
01:14:02
>> Oh, I don't know about that, but
01:14:06
>> um I'm not I'll tell you what be a hell
01:14:08
of a lot worse getting a spray from
01:14:10
column. Now, let me tell you let me tell
01:14:12
you about one. I mean, this is this is
01:14:14
legendary.
01:14:16
We we had a a pretty average game again
01:14:19
in our first test against France in 95.
01:14:23
And I I I don't know the reason for it,
01:14:28
but I was all geared up to uh sort out
01:14:31
one or two players and to have a pretty
01:14:34
brutal session on the Tuesday, not so
01:14:37
much in hard work cuz the players were
01:14:39
fit, but in in uh comments on what we
01:14:45
didn't do.
01:14:47
And um Colin got up at the team meeting
01:14:51
before we went out and gave the guys
01:14:55
what I'd call a genuine Colin me serve
01:14:59
and it was better than I could do
01:15:03
and he was and coming from him cuz he he
01:15:06
didn't interfere with coaching and I I
01:15:08
used to ask him to have an opinion from
01:15:11
time to time and he he was sort of
01:15:12
reluctant to do so but this he he just
01:15:16
got up and did that. And like what what
01:15:20
did it sound like?
01:15:21
>> Just a lot of fbombs.
01:15:22
>> Oh no, no, no, no. He what he spoke, how
01:15:28
he spoke. I said to him, "You you would
01:15:30
have made a good coach tree." He said,
01:15:33
"Oh, I had a bit of a go at it." But he
01:15:34
said, "I never knew what the backs were
01:15:36
doing or words to that effect." Um, no,
01:15:40
he just told them straight about what he
01:15:42
expected from All Blacks. M so much
01:15:47
mana. Oh, incred. Hey, why do you think
01:15:50
I asked for him to be the the allwake
01:15:53
manager? Why do you think I asked for
01:15:55
Brian Lahore to be the
01:15:57
>> campaign manager? See what it did?
01:16:00
There's two things that that did. I
01:16:02
didn't want to be the center of
01:16:03
attention. I bring in a Colin Me and a
01:16:06
Brian Lahore and I can fade off into
01:16:10
insignificance and just do my job as a
01:16:13
coach.
01:16:14
>> And and the spin-off from both of those
01:16:16
guys is they were respected wherever we
01:16:19
went by the home countries and nobody
01:16:24
tried to pull any fast tricks.
01:16:26
>> Yeah.
01:16:27
>> Over Colin past Colin's eyes. He just
01:16:30
wouldn't risk it. If you could change
01:16:33
one rugby rule, what would it be?
01:16:44
It look, I've got to say it's it's not
01:16:46
so much changing the rule
01:16:50
as
01:16:54
I let me put it this way. I can't stand
01:16:58
seeing
01:17:00
15 phases of rugby with oneoff passes
01:17:04
out to a forward bash into forwards out
01:17:07
to another forward bash. And I mean, do
01:17:10
you get bored watching that?
01:17:12
>> You get sick of it,
01:17:13
>> right? Do we need to have a law that
01:17:17
says something like this? Okay, you can
01:17:20
have three or four goes around the ruck
01:17:21
like that. After that, it's got to get
01:17:23
out to at least your center.
01:17:28
or or but I mean you couldn't have a
01:17:30
rule that said that but or do we have to
01:17:34
introduce a law like league have got you
01:17:39
get so many plays with a ball and if you
01:17:40
haven't done something with it you lose
01:17:42
it I don't know but
01:17:45
something's got to happen within the
01:17:47
rules of rugby to stop this
01:17:50
you know 16 or 17 phases along the 5 m
01:17:54
line M
01:17:55
>> I mean it that's ruining rugby
01:17:57
>> m
01:17:58
>> as a spectacle.
01:17:59
>> Do do you think the all black jersey
01:18:01
still means the same to players today as
01:18:03
it did in your era?
01:18:04
>> Some of them it does.
01:18:06
>> You can tell that.
01:18:07
>> Yeah.
01:18:07
>> You you can watch look one new player
01:18:12
that
01:18:14
feels that way is Fabian Holland. You'll
01:18:16
watch him play. But Arty Savia, greatest
01:18:18
player in the world as far as I'm
01:18:20
concerned, Arti Savia,
01:18:22
>> like week in week out, that guy produces
01:18:26
his best and and it's all and and he and
01:18:30
he gives everything he's got in every
01:18:32
game he plays. He's a smart cookie, too.
01:18:36
>> I that he he's my favorite All Black, to
01:18:39
be honest. Um
01:18:42
it it so yeah we'll
01:18:46
leave that there.
01:18:48
>> Who's These are questions from Instagram
01:18:50
by the way. Who's um the greatest All
01:18:51
Black of all time and who's the best All
01:18:53
Black coach of all time?
01:18:55
>> Well, you can't go past Fred Allen, I
01:18:57
don't think. And hearing Brian Lahore
01:19:00
and Colin Me talk about Fred is a
01:19:02
needle.
01:19:04
uh you know it it it I remember Colin
01:19:08
saying to me one day you're getting
01:19:10
close to Fred Allen's needle when I was
01:19:13
proddding a few of the players you know
01:19:15
but um so I think Fred Allen Colin me
01:19:20
Richie Mccau
01:19:22
and I'd say by the time he retires Arty
01:19:24
Savvia might be on that pedestal as
01:19:26
well.
01:19:28
>> Yeah. got it made super rugby exciting
01:19:30
this year, didn't it? Seeing him with
01:19:32
the Moana Pacifica,
01:19:34
>> that was fantastic.
01:19:35
>> That was a breath of fresh air into
01:19:38
Super Rugby. And it just shows you, I
01:19:40
mean, how great he is. Turned a team
01:19:42
that was struggling to make it
01:19:44
>> into a team that, you know, was hard to
01:19:46
beat.
01:19:47
>> Yeah. And a fan favorite off the field
01:19:49
as well. Oh, yeah.
01:19:50
>> Um, if you were in charge today, what's
01:19:52
the first thing you'd change about how
01:19:53
the All Blacks are run?
01:20:00
Well, I don't know how they're run. Um,
01:20:04
you know, you know what I think I'd do?
01:20:07
I I' I'd probably have less coaches, so
01:20:10
there's less confusing confusion with
01:20:12
the players. At times, I see examples on
01:20:16
the field of
01:20:18
this player thinking this is what he's
01:20:21
been coached and this player thinking
01:20:22
something different. And if you've got
01:20:26
two, like I don't mind extra coaches
01:20:30
being around to deal with technical
01:20:32
issues like a scrum coach or whatever.
01:20:35
Teach them how to scrum, but don't tell
01:20:37
the players what to do in other parts of
01:20:38
the field. There's got to be one person
01:20:42
driving it. And I, you know, so I'm not
01:20:45
sure how the All Blacks are driven,
01:20:47
whether Scott Robertson drives the whole
01:20:49
thing, not sure. But it it's it's got to
01:20:53
get down to that. So you you heard what
01:20:55
I Jones said in that uh Sky TV
01:21:00
program. Yeah. The end of the day.
01:21:02
>> Uh every Lori taught every player what
01:21:06
his job was
01:21:08
and then that job fitted into what our
01:21:12
team pattern was. Okay. Can you have
01:21:16
that if you've got players being told by
01:21:18
different people what they should be
01:21:20
doing?
01:21:21
>> Can you have that? M
01:21:23
>> and I see examples
01:21:26
at times you see extended periods where
01:21:29
the this all black team is really
01:21:30
playing as a unit and looking very very
01:21:33
good. At other times like just after
01:21:35
Halime
01:21:37
I'm asking myself well hang on this
01:21:40
player doesn't know what that player's
01:21:42
meant to be doing.
01:21:45
Who's the toughest player you've ever
01:21:47
seen? And could they survive in today's
01:21:48
game without getting carded every week?
01:21:55
Do you know and a lot of people
01:21:58
are are not going to agree with this
01:22:02
for all the rugby he played
01:22:04
and how tough he was and everything
01:22:06
else.
01:22:08
Richard Low would probably get
01:22:11
a card a year or two cards a year, but
01:22:14
he wasn't a dirty player.
01:22:16
>> He did some stupid things, yes, but he
01:22:19
wasn't a dirty player. He's one. Um,
01:22:21
>> were you his coach when the eye gouging
01:22:24
incident happened?
01:22:25
>> Yeah.
01:22:25
>> Yeah. I remember that being a big news
01:22:27
at the time.
01:22:27
>> Yeah. I'm not so sure about that.
01:22:29
>> Yeah.
01:22:30
>> Um
01:22:32
I I don't think he I I there was no way
01:22:35
it was an intentional eye gouch.
01:22:39
Um Oh boy.
01:22:44
Do you know I'm just wondering if Arty
01:22:46
Sier is not that person.
01:22:48
>> Wow. That's high praise.
01:22:50
>> Well, see, you've got people like
01:22:53
Colamade. Oh, Richie Mccau,
01:22:56
>> how would he go in today's game? Uh, he
01:22:59
he'd be outstanding rugby player. Um,
01:23:03
but the way the referees interpret it
01:23:05
now, he'd he he would lose confidence
01:23:08
the way he used to go into the tackle
01:23:10
area to gain the ball because he
01:23:11
wouldn't know what the referee's
01:23:12
thinking. Um and and you see such
01:23:16
different interpretations
01:23:19
uh by the referees that there's the law
01:23:22
I'd like to see changed.
01:23:24
>> Coming back to that question earlier on
01:23:27
>> um at the tackle you know uh about
01:23:32
players arriving stealing the ball. When
01:23:35
does it become a ruck and this business
01:23:38
about oh if you put your hands on the
01:23:40
ground it's illegal. That's nonsense,
01:23:44
>> you know.
01:23:46
So that uh
01:23:50
Fitzy was such a tough player, too, but
01:23:52
I'm I'm not not sure how many cards he
01:23:55
would get.
01:23:58
Yeah. But but but you know, you you can
01:24:01
say that. Um Robin Brooks, another one.
01:24:04
He he is so tough. Uh but they're clever
01:24:09
players. They they would just adapt to
01:24:11
what the rules are today. Colum meets
01:24:13
would have adapted to what the rules are
01:24:15
today.
01:24:18
>> God, so many so many amazing names you
01:24:20
mentioned in that one answer.
01:24:21
>> Well, Frank Bunt is another one. Now,
01:24:23
there's a guy. He might be the one that
01:24:26
wouldn't give cards away. That is an
01:24:29
incredibly tough, skillful player.
01:24:32
>> He was tough.
01:24:34
>> He'd be as tough as any of the forwards.
01:24:37
>> Did you see were you his first All black
01:24:38
coach? Did you select him? How old was
01:24:40
he was old e when he
01:24:41
>> Yeah.
01:24:42
>> 30 something when he made his debut?
01:24:44
>> Yeah. 28 I think.
01:24:46
>> 28.
01:24:46
>> 29.
01:24:48
>> Peter Thorburn told me when I got
01:24:51
appointed as All Black coach. Peter was
01:24:54
one of the uh uh assistant selectors
01:24:58
and he
01:25:00
asked me to keep an eye on Frank Bunts
01:25:02
and watch him because he's a far better
01:25:04
player than what he's getting credit
01:25:05
for. And when you do study them, to to
01:25:08
really know what a player's doing in a
01:25:09
game, you got to watch them for 40
01:25:11
minutes, at least 40 minutes. I used to
01:25:14
like to watch 20 minutes in the first
01:25:16
half, 20 minutes in the second half. And
01:25:19
uh
01:25:21
the the work he gets through as well as
01:25:24
having a high level of skill, it's just
01:25:26
incredible.
01:25:28
>> So he's another one there. Brilliant.
01:25:31
So, feels like you're at a sort of
01:25:33
reflective stage of life now in your in
01:25:35
your late 70s. You seem really happy and
01:25:37
you seem at peace and in a good place,
01:25:39
but um are there things you're still
01:25:41
working on as a man?
01:25:45
Yes. Um
01:25:48
being
01:25:50
a a uh a much more, how do I put it?
01:25:56
accommodating
01:25:58
uh
01:26:00
think thinking about other people more
01:26:03
particularly my partner in in around the
01:26:06
house
01:26:07
>> uh making sure I'm
01:26:11
whatever I do I consider her first
01:26:14
whatever uh and and the people I play
01:26:17
golf with um most of the people that are
01:26:20
my age I'm you know probably the the
01:26:24
best golfer in the four or whatever
01:26:26
and having the tolerance and and being
01:26:30
supportive of them.
01:26:31
>> And if we got to look for a ball, so be
01:26:33
it. We're looking for a ball. We can all
01:26:35
lose all put a ball in the rough.
01:26:37
>> Um,
01:26:39
>> so I I think I've learned and and I'm
01:26:43
much more mellow and and much more
01:26:46
considerate of other people now than I
01:26:49
ever was previously.
01:26:52
>> Yeah, that that's it's a good space to
01:26:55
be in. Hey,
01:26:55
>> if I hurt someone else's feelings, I
01:26:58
would be incredibly disappointed with
01:27:00
myself.
01:27:02
>> I try very very hard not to do that.
01:27:05
>> Do you do you um ruminate at all or do
01:27:08
you think about like conversations
01:27:09
you've had over the years and things you
01:27:10
could have done differently? And
01:27:12
>> of course,
01:27:12
>> yeah, I think we all do. It's not a
01:27:14
healthy space to play in, but we can't
01:27:15
help,
01:27:16
>> you know. You know, if I could go back
01:27:18
to when I was 32 years old coaching my
01:27:21
first rugby team
01:27:24
and start again, I could be a world
01:27:27
beater because of what I know, what I
01:27:31
learned and the and and the great
01:27:34
players that I coached that taught me
01:27:36
heaps. That's something I haven't said
01:27:38
enough of in this interview is what I
01:27:40
learned off the players.
01:27:42
>> Uh just in general discussions and and
01:27:46
opinions about how we should do this or
01:27:49
how we should do that. I learned a hell
01:27:50
of a lot off the players
01:27:52
>> and they had the confidence to tell me
01:27:54
what they thought cuz they knew they'd
01:27:56
never get slapped down for giving me
01:28:00
their honest opinion.
01:28:02
Um,
01:28:04
so I I would, you know, I often think
01:28:07
about it and I think how much better
01:28:09
coach I would be uh with all the
01:28:12
experience I've had behind me.
01:28:14
>> Yeah.
01:28:16
>> Yeah. There's that saying, youth is
01:28:17
wasted on the young, right?
01:28:19
>> Yes.
01:28:19
>> Yeah.
01:28:20
>> Correct.
01:28:20
>> Um, how do you personally define
01:28:22
happiness now? Has it changed over the
01:28:24
years?
01:28:26
>> Yeah, it does. It It has changed. happy.
01:28:28
I got happiness out of making I I've
01:28:31
always had happiness out of making other
01:28:33
people happy, believe it or not.
01:28:35
>> Um, even more so now.
01:28:38
But, um, being successful
01:28:43
helps with happiness. And it doesn't
01:28:45
necessarily mean in your job or your
01:28:47
sport. In life in general, being being
01:28:51
successful
01:28:53
uh, makes me happy. If I can do good
01:28:56
things for other people, it makes me
01:28:59
happy.
01:29:00
It made me happy when I saw players that
01:29:05
I coached and teams that I coached go
01:29:07
out there and play so well and then come
01:29:11
into the dressing room and they're very
01:29:12
buoyant and up. That that was the
01:29:16
biggest enjoyment I got out of coaching
01:29:18
rugby
01:29:19
>> was seeing the success and the happiness
01:29:22
of the players when they had done what
01:29:24
they went out there to do.
01:29:26
>> Seeing someone reach their potential.
01:29:28
>> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Getting a player
01:29:31
to reach their full potential, Jonah
01:29:33
Lamu,
01:29:34
>> you know, as an example, um is is Yeah,
01:29:40
that that that is so satisfying. M
01:29:43
>> I you know if there's one thing I'm
01:29:45
proud of I was never in these things for
01:29:48
me
01:29:50
I was in it for rugby and I was in it
01:29:53
for the for the team. Mhm.
01:29:56
>> I never I never
01:30:00
as a player
01:30:04
I it was a lot more for me as a player
01:30:07
and that's why I trained so hard and
01:30:10
practiced so hard and everything else.
01:30:13
But as soon as I became a coach, it was
01:30:16
not about me at all. I wasn't in it for
01:30:19
me. M
01:30:20
>> I was in it for the team, for the club,
01:30:23
the province or country, whatever, and
01:30:27
for those players.
01:30:28
>> And the all black jersey, I got to say
01:30:30
this, the targetago jersey, the southern
01:30:32
jersey, a targetgo, and the all black
01:30:35
jersey. That's it. That was it for me.
01:30:38
That's what I was in it for.
01:30:40
>> Yeah. You you bleed black and blue and
01:30:42
gold, don't you?
01:30:43
>> Yes, I do.
01:30:44
>> Those three colors. I can tell. Hey,
01:30:46
something that's um a massive sort of
01:30:48
discussion these days um which was not a
01:30:51
discussion at all even um in the ' 90s
01:30:53
when you were coaching is like mental
01:30:54
health and mental wellness and actually
01:30:56
your old mate Sir John Cwin has had a
01:30:58
huge impact on this. Um one thing I've
01:31:00
learned is that no one gets to the the
01:31:02
the privileged position of being in
01:31:04
their late 70s without being kicked in
01:31:05
the ass by life a few times. How's your
01:31:09
mental health been over the years? Let
01:31:11
me say for a start, I'm I'm absolutely
01:31:14
delighted and proud of what John Cwin
01:31:17
has done.
01:31:18
>> I I think it's a real tribute. You can
01:31:20
be one of the greatest All Blacks and
01:31:23
still be a real thoughtful person in
01:31:27
helping others.
01:31:28
>> Um
01:31:30
I've been through stages I I've I don't
01:31:33
believe I've ever had depression.
01:31:36
I've been through stages where I've been
01:31:40
a bit down, but they don't last that
01:31:42
long. And uh nowadays, for example, if I
01:31:47
if I get a bit down, I'll pick up my
01:31:49
golf clubs and go and hit a few balls
01:31:52
>> and uh take it out on them, you know,
01:31:55
and and get it out of my system.
01:31:57
>> I like driving nice cars.
01:32:00
>> I do. I I sometimes I'll get in my car
01:32:02
and just go for a drive to somewhere I
01:32:05
haven't been for a while, you know, but
01:32:08
I I
01:32:10
don't get me wrong, when I was coaching,
01:32:14
I was under incredible pressure,
01:32:16
particularly at the time of the All
01:32:18
Blacks where all of Aland thought John
01:32:22
Hart should have been the All Black
01:32:24
coach
01:32:25
and
01:32:27
that was there the whole time. and the
01:32:30
the Oakland media sniping whenever we
01:32:33
didn't have a good game. It was my
01:32:35
fault. It was never the players.
01:32:38
And uh there are sometimes when quite
01:32:41
frankly it is the players's fault.
01:32:43
>> The coach will never say that publicly,
01:32:46
but it is sometimes the players's fault,
01:32:49
not the coach's fault.
01:32:51
You can't have a team that goes so well
01:32:54
one week and they play to the pattern
01:32:56
and they do well and then the next week
01:33:00
we see what we saw against Argentina
01:33:02
with Have you ever seen an all black
01:33:04
team throw so many loose passes?
01:33:07
>> No. Well, you can't blame the coach for
01:33:09
that, you know.
01:33:11
>> Yeah. So uh but in that in that time
01:33:16
that I had that was probably the hardest
01:33:19
time in my life was in coaching the All
01:33:21
Blacks. While I got a lot of
01:33:22
satisfaction out of it and I loved the
01:33:24
rugby environment,
01:33:27
the dishonesty of the media
01:33:30
>> uh created nothing to do with John. It
01:33:34
wasn't his fault, but the media thought
01:33:37
they were doing him a good service and
01:33:40
that they would be able to make a
01:33:42
change. Well, New Zealand Rugby Union in
01:33:44
those days, all that media was doing was
01:33:47
giving them harder resolve.
01:33:50
>> They're not going to turn around and do
01:33:51
what the media tell them to do. M I mean
01:33:54
we had we used to have great people on
01:33:56
that, you know, John Ding and um uh oh,
01:34:01
West Coast,
01:34:03
John Sturgeon, you know, uh um
01:34:07
Russ Thomas, there there was, you know,
01:34:10
that's just mentioning a few. David
01:34:12
Galvin, that's just mentioning a few.
01:34:14
There were great people who were
01:34:16
single-minded men who weren't going to
01:34:19
be pushed round by anybody, and they
01:34:21
never were. they they would defy the
01:34:23
prime minister and go to South Africa. I
01:34:26
mean, that's the sort of people they
01:34:28
were. So, the media were never going to
01:34:30
influence them and what they're doing.
01:34:32
>> Do you do you feel like the media this
01:34:34
is like history repeating itself? Do you
01:34:35
feel like the media had an impact on the
01:34:37
the Ian Foster Scott Robertson thing a
01:34:40
couple of years ago?
01:34:42
I I I
01:34:46
can I say that I think the all the the
01:34:48
the New Zealand Rugby Union handled it
01:34:51
badly.
01:34:53
>> Um
01:34:55
I don't want to get into should Ian
01:34:58
Foster have been removed earlier or not.
01:35:01
Uh but I think it was not handled
01:35:05
correctly by the New Zealand Rugby Union
01:35:08
to put it down. I mean, they made it
01:35:11
public. It became public that if the All
01:35:14
Blacks lost in South Africa,
01:35:17
you know, Ian was going to be gone.
01:35:19
Well, that's one game shouldn't
01:35:23
determine anybody's fate. If they were
01:35:25
saying to themselves, you know, he he's
01:35:29
the team's not going well enough and we
01:35:31
need to change a coach. One game's not
01:35:34
going to alter him as a coach.
01:35:36
>> Okay. And for him to have to go through
01:35:38
that indignity
01:35:40
and and and some of the indignity that
01:35:43
he went through
01:35:45
um
01:35:47
was not fear.
01:35:50
Okay. And uh it it it's
01:35:55
you know Scott Robertson, don't get me
01:35:57
wrong, he had great claims
01:36:00
to beat, but it needed to be handled
01:36:02
better. I remember being questioned
01:36:04
about it one day and I said, "Well,
01:36:07
here's a point I make.
01:36:10
We expect every All black to play well
01:36:13
week after week after week and to
01:36:15
succeed, and if he doesn't, if a player
01:36:18
doesn't, he gets dropped." Well, all
01:36:21
black coaches should put themselves in
01:36:23
that same situation. They don't perform,
01:36:26
they need to be changed. In other words,
01:36:28
if they don't, if the team doesn't
01:36:30
perform, then the coach is not
01:36:32
performing. M
01:36:34
um now it's not that simple because you
01:36:38
you you have to look at things like are
01:36:41
we rebuilding
01:36:42
you know what are the reasons you have
01:36:45
to you know administrators have to be
01:36:49
rugby n enough and I'm going to come
01:36:52
back to that in a minute uh rugby n
01:36:54
enough to know what is actually
01:36:57
happening now when I was all black coach
01:37:02
uh and get appointed. You remember John
01:37:04
Graham, the great all black all black
01:37:06
skipper. Him uh and Brian Lahore
01:37:11
were on an advisory panel to the New
01:37:14
Zealand Rugby Union on who should be the
01:37:16
all black coach.
01:37:19
Now that's what we need now. Those two
01:37:22
guys were apart from being very highly
01:37:25
respected, they were very balanced in
01:37:28
their thinking. I I knew both of them
01:37:30
well.
01:37:32
And Brian Lore I had tremendous
01:37:35
admiration for and it was such an honor
01:37:39
to have him uh as my campaign manager at
01:37:44
at the World Cup. Uh but they
01:37:48
knew how to read what a coach was doing
01:37:50
and and was the coach doing a good job.
01:37:53
What was his fault? What was the
01:37:54
player's fault? What was the referee's
01:37:56
fault? I mean, referees can lose games
01:37:59
for teams through 50/50 calls going the
01:38:03
wrong way
01:38:05
and in some cases bad calls.
01:38:07
Like,
01:38:09
probably shouldn't say this, but I'm
01:38:11
going to. When the All Blacks played in
01:38:13
Johannesburg last year, South Africa got
01:38:16
awarded a try
01:38:18
when the Springbolt prop dropped the
01:38:22
ball a foot off the ground. He dropped
01:38:25
it and then fell on it. The try was
01:38:27
awarded and and the referee didn't even
01:38:31
go to the video ref.
01:38:35
Now, the video ref had interfered in
01:38:38
other parts of the game. Why didn't he
01:38:40
interfere then? M
01:38:44
see that's now if Scott Robertson had
01:38:47
won that game the All Blacks had won
01:38:49
that game there'd be a much more
01:38:51
positive attitude about how the team's
01:38:54
building than there has been. And that's
01:38:58
I mean that's where people like John
01:39:01
Graeme, Brian Lahore, they notice those
01:39:04
things. They see those things that swing
01:39:07
the balance of the scales.
01:39:10
God, you're still so into it, aren't
01:39:11
you? You're just passionate about it.
01:39:13
Passionate about the game. Um, at the
01:39:16
start of the chat, we we touched upon
01:39:18
you being a a granddad. Now, what what
01:39:19
do you Yeah. What do your grand What do
01:39:21
your grandkids call you? You popa
01:39:23
grandad?
01:39:24
>> I try to get them to call me Lori, but
01:39:26
they don't.
01:39:27
>> Um,
01:39:28
>> why do you want to be called Lori?
01:39:29
>> Oh, what's your name?
01:39:31
>> Yeah. Um,
01:39:35
granddad.
01:39:36
>> Yeah, grandad. Yeah. Yeah. How how
01:39:39
>> my daughter my daughter calls me one of
01:39:40
my daughters calls me pops. The other
01:39:42
one calls me dad.
01:39:44
>> Yeah. You like that? You like being
01:39:45
called pops.
01:39:46
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:47
>> It's whatever they're comfortable with.
01:39:50
So when I text her back, which is
01:39:52
regularly, I sign off as pops. When I
01:39:55
text the other one back or email, it's
01:39:58
dad.
01:40:00
How do you hope your grandkids see you
01:40:02
as a man?
01:40:04
Um what are you like? Are you are you
01:40:07
you playful and cuddly?
01:40:09
>> I was when they were young. I I I I've
01:40:13
got a I've got a grandson
01:40:16
who's
01:40:18
got the seafaring blood in him that I
01:40:20
had and he, you know, he loves his
01:40:23
fishing. He's gone into contracting. Um
01:40:27
I I've given him quite a lot of advice
01:40:30
um and so on and and that's where the
01:40:33
fishing gear is going to go. Uh
01:40:37
so yeah, unfortunately
01:40:41
uh my other daughter hasn't had any
01:40:43
children,
01:40:44
>> but uh I I haven't seen as much of my
01:40:47
grandchildren as I would love to have
01:40:49
because my daughter moved to Oakuckland
01:40:52
and um
01:40:54
that that had my two grandchildren. But
01:40:59
yeah, they're still there and I yeah
01:41:00
>> see them from time to time and
01:41:03
>> next year when the big 80 comes over I'm
01:41:06
going to get them all down.
01:41:07
>> How good how good.
01:41:10
>> Um are you are you very emotional these
01:41:12
days in this stage of your life? Like
01:41:14
when was the last time you cried?
01:41:21
I find as as I get older, like I reckon
01:41:23
through my 20s and 30s, I could probably
01:41:25
count on a couple of fingers how often I
01:41:28
cried. It would have just been maybe my
01:41:29
nana's funeral. Maybe that was the only
01:41:31
time. But as I get older, I get I find
01:41:33
I'm getting more and more emotional all
01:41:34
the time.
01:41:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you do. Obviously, I
01:41:37
did um you know, when when my mother
01:41:40
died and when my father died.
01:41:43
>> Um
01:41:44
this one will surprise you. Uh
01:41:49
my older brother had had a dog that was
01:41:54
the dog of the century.
01:41:57
I swear the the dog used to come and
01:41:59
stay with me from time to time and
01:42:04
uh I swear you could talk to it and it
01:42:06
understood what you were saying or she
01:42:09
and um the most amazing little border
01:42:14
collie, intelligent, unbelievable. And
01:42:17
every time I went there, she'd go turn
01:42:20
around to the front of their house and
01:42:21
come back with a bit of rope about so
01:42:24
long for me to play with her.
01:42:28
Uh,
01:42:29
she died rather suddenly and I I I had a
01:42:33
tear or two over that. Um,
01:42:38
and I I I've
01:42:42
just, you know, recently uh I don't
01:42:46
really want to talk about what caused
01:42:48
it, but I've had a pretty emotional
01:42:51
experience a couple of times in the last
01:42:54
two years. And
01:42:56
yeah, I I had a little bit of a thing
01:43:00
about not being able to do anything
01:43:02
about it,
01:43:03
>> you know, not being able to help or
01:43:06
whatever. So, I think it happens to
01:43:09
everybody.
01:43:10
>> Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any
01:43:11
regrets,
01:43:13
personal, professional, or otherwise?
01:43:17
>> Yeah, I do. I do.
01:43:20
I think I think anyone that anyone that
01:43:21
gets to 80 that says they don't hasn't
01:43:24
lived a hasn't lived a thorough life.
01:43:26
Well, I I have regrets
01:43:31
uh
01:43:33
that I spent so much time away from my
01:43:36
family when when my daughters were at an
01:43:39
age early teenagers
01:43:43
uh and and a little bit younger.
01:43:45
>> Uh and their mother,
01:43:48
I believe, suffered quite badly from me
01:43:51
not being there very often. being an all
01:43:54
black coach in those days, you were just
01:43:56
all over the place.
01:43:58
>> Um, I have
01:44:02
regrets about that and and
01:44:06
she
01:44:10
ended up with a problem over it. Um,
01:44:16
so I I definitely have regrets about
01:44:19
that. I think that maybe I could have
01:44:22
managed it better.
01:44:25
Uh although, you know, those same years
01:44:27
we had the most fabulous fun
01:44:30
Christmases.
01:44:31
>> Uh and and that as a family, uh I was
01:44:35
into my water skiing and and jet boating
01:44:37
and all that sort of stuff. And my
01:44:39
daughters just loved it.
01:44:40
>> Yeah.
01:44:41
>> And uh and fishing out on the lakes and
01:44:44
things like that. They were they were
01:44:46
fabulous Christmases and always had a
01:44:49
very good friend of mine, Lindseay
01:44:50
Clark, who I played 100 games for Rago
01:44:53
with. Uh he's played more than me for a
01:44:56
targetgo. Uh we used to go away camping
01:44:58
together and and and other members of
01:45:01
our team. Well, there used to about six
01:45:03
or seven of our club team used to go
01:45:04
away together.
01:45:05
>> Yeah.
01:45:07
>> Wow. Do you um do you still set goals?
01:45:09
Do you have do you have future goals?
01:45:12
>> Yep. Uh,
01:45:15
I I I got I was really doing well at
01:45:18
golf and I got my handicap down to 3.8
01:45:22
about 3 months ago, three or four months
01:45:24
ago. And then I had a fall, compressed a
01:45:29
nerve in my neck. And
01:45:32
it's like being a rugby player. You play
01:45:34
with injuries. And I had this terrible
01:45:36
pain under my shoulder blade. And I
01:45:38
still thought I could play golf and
01:45:40
couldn't. and and in
01:45:43
3 months or 2 and 1/2 months, my
01:45:46
handicap went from 3.8
01:45:48
to about 8, which which it's at now. Now
01:45:53
is the time. My goal now is to get back
01:45:56
to I think a reasonable handicap slope
01:45:58
for me is four or five.
01:46:02
>> I mean, I don't know many other 80y olds
01:46:05
that are there. So, that's a goal.
01:46:08
>> Um, that's one I enjoy. I'm a very very
01:46:11
keen gardener. I Oh, tomatoes,
01:46:14
cucumbers. Lori's got the best tomatoes
01:46:17
in the district. Feed half I was feeding
01:46:21
half the staff at the hills with
01:46:23
cucumbers and tomato
01:46:25
and uh my friends. Um but I grow
01:46:29
vegetables for you know just eating
01:46:31
parnips and carrots out of the garden
01:46:33
now. And um yeah, so I love my garden
01:46:38
>> and and I'm very keen on my landscaping
01:46:40
too. I do all my own landscaping.
01:46:43
>> Um so I still
01:46:46
and that included building a 30 m fence,
01:46:50
you know, 2 m high fence and things like
01:46:52
that at the back of the house. Um
01:46:56
so I I Yeah.
01:46:59
And your your relationship with your own
01:47:00
mortality, what what's that like? I
01:47:02
mean, we've mentioned so many names
01:47:03
today of people that are no longer with
01:47:05
us. You know, you brought from Brian
01:47:07
Lahore and Colin Mez to even younger
01:47:09
players like Jonah.
01:47:11
>> Um, yeah. Yeah. What's your relationship
01:47:14
with death like?
01:47:16
>> So, it's a very bleak question, but it's
01:47:18
a reality for all of us. I I
01:47:21
do you know I I have sort of thought
01:47:24
about it but I I think because of the
01:47:28
how I feel and how I play golf
01:47:32
uh you know a year ago I was saying I'm
01:47:36
hitting the ball just about as far as I
01:47:37
did when I was 50
01:47:39
>> and and and I'm uh
01:47:43
you know walking around a golf course
01:47:46
uh in wet weather and
01:47:49
things like that. And and I'm thinking,
01:47:52
"Oh, I got a while to go yet." You know,
01:47:54
um I'm looking forward to 90 to be
01:47:57
honest.
01:47:58
>> Yeah.
01:47:58
>> And uh I don't think I I know it'll
01:48:02
happen one day. And I have the feeling I
01:48:06
can't I can't think seriously about it
01:48:08
at the moment, but I have this feeling
01:48:10
that when the time comes, I'll be ready
01:48:13
for it. I'll accept it. M uh if if next
01:48:18
week I was diagnosed with a terminal
01:48:21
cancer
01:48:23
uh then
01:48:25
I' I'd be
01:48:28
disappointed it's happened, angry that
01:48:30
it's happened. Uh say right what have I
01:48:33
got to get done in the next 3 months or
01:48:35
6 months or whatever uh that that's in
01:48:39
the bucket list uh and and then accept
01:48:42
it
01:48:43
>> and get round and do it. But but I'm not
01:48:46
even
01:48:48
thinking about the days when I can't go
01:48:51
out and play golf or I can't do my
01:48:53
garden. My garden seems to get a bit
01:48:55
bigger every year. I seem to have more
01:48:57
time and uh just as much energy to look
01:49:01
after it.
01:49:02
>> That's wonderful. Well, as I said at the
01:49:03
beginning, like the the man sitting in
01:49:05
front of me today, like he seems in
01:49:07
really good nick.
01:49:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel really good. you
01:49:11
know, I as I say, I get up I I I've got
01:49:14
some historical rugby injuries and uh so
01:49:18
I get up in the morning and stretch and
01:49:20
you know, to keep on top of them. Um and
01:49:24
I do a little bit of weight training but
01:49:26
with one of those Chuck Norris uh
01:49:30
>> home gym thing.
01:49:31
>> Home gym thing on pulley. So I don't
01:49:32
want impact.
01:49:33
>> Yeah. Um, and and I I I don't want to do
01:49:37
heavy weights cuz that at my age that's
01:49:39
not a sensible thing to do.
01:49:41
>> Um, so I I I just keep I just keep going
01:49:46
and uh I don't think about
01:49:50
I mean, yeah, okay, I I I accept the
01:49:52
fact that I'm going to be 80 soon, but I
01:49:55
don't think about that as old.
01:49:58
>> Uh, I'll start to feel old when I can't
01:50:00
do the things I like doing.
01:50:04
Yeah. So, I'm I'm 52 now. I've become
01:50:06
mildly obsessed with um the aging
01:50:08
process. And you see someone like I see
01:50:10
someone like you and I think, okay,
01:50:12
what's the secret? Same as like Winston
01:50:14
Peters or even Yeah. Donald Trump, the
01:50:16
guys in their late 70s or early 80s and
01:50:18
they're still crushing it.
01:50:19
>> Yeah.
01:50:20
>> Just getting on with it. I think you
01:50:21
have to keep active. E that's the key.
01:50:22
>> Well, you got to keep active mentally
01:50:24
and and and physically. M
01:50:27
>> mentally is just as important cuz if you
01:50:29
go old mentally you go old physically
01:50:32
>> and vice versa.
01:50:33
>> So uh that good healthy diet and
01:50:38
something that I'm not quite so good at
01:50:41
is getting plenty of sleep. I I seem to
01:50:45
think 5 hours is enough for me at night,
01:50:48
you know, and and when there's things
01:50:52
like
01:50:53
uh fed up golf on TV and whatever,
01:50:58
>> always something to watch.
01:51:00
>> There is and um
01:51:03
you know, rugby matches in the middle of
01:51:05
the night and that, but I had the
01:51:07
discipline. Now, here's a good thing. I
01:51:10
needed a decent sleep on Saturday night.
01:51:12
So, I had the discipline to record the
01:51:15
Spring Bach Australia game and then I
01:51:18
watched it yesterday.
01:51:19
>> Jesus, what a second half.
01:51:20
>> Yeah. Incredible. I I tell you what,
01:51:22
we're going to have we're going to have
01:51:24
some trouble with Australia. You know,
01:51:27
you get them Australia confident. They
01:51:29
they've had their backsides kicked the
01:51:31
last few years, but all of a sudden
01:51:34
they're now believe in themselves.
01:51:36
>> We're in for a hell of a battle.
01:51:38
>> Yeah.
01:51:41
What three words would family and
01:51:42
friends use to describe you? This is
01:51:44
something I ask all my guests. It was
01:51:46
actually um I had a guy on the podcast
01:51:47
called Doo Allen who's like a coast to
01:51:49
coast legend and he did one of those
01:51:50
24-hour adventure races with Richie
01:51:52
Mccor. And he said it's something Richie
01:51:53
asked the teammates in the middle of the
01:51:55
night when they were doing it. And he
01:51:57
one of Richie's words for himself was
01:51:58
integrity. And this guy Doo said, "It's
01:52:00
funny. You know, I've only been with you
01:52:01
a couple of days, but that's a word I'd
01:52:03
use for you."
01:52:04
>> Yeah. Uh loyalty,
01:52:07
honesty, and in integrity. Yeah,
01:52:09
>> would would probably
01:52:12
probably cover it. Loyalty is very
01:52:16
important one for me and and uh
01:52:20
yeah, honesty when you deal with people.
01:52:24
>> Great words. Are you you like who you
01:52:26
see in the mirror? Are you someone you'd
01:52:28
want to go and have a beer with?
01:52:30
>> Yeah. I' I'd have a hell of a lot of
01:52:33
questions to ask me.
01:52:36
>> Would you like what? So just the things
01:52:38
like I try to not to talk too much about
01:52:41
myself or or that sort of thing. I'd be
01:52:43
asking plenty
01:52:44
>> about because of what I've been through,
01:52:47
you know, and and where I've been and
01:52:50
and things like that. By by the way, I I
01:52:52
I was also a wine connoisseur for quite
01:52:56
a few years. I I had quite a big wine
01:52:59
seller in one of my houses. Uh, but
01:53:02
because I drink so little now, I haven't
01:53:04
had to buy wine for a long time because
01:53:07
I I'm drinking Oh, some of my reds are
01:53:09
just fabulous. But I might have half 3/4
01:53:13
of a glass twice a week.
01:53:15
>> Wow.
01:53:16
>> More likely once a week. And in
01:53:20
summer, I'll have a hazy pale ale on a
01:53:23
hot day.
01:53:24
>> So, I don't drink much now. That That's
01:53:26
another thing. I've I've really cut that
01:53:28
back intentionally.
01:53:30
>> Yes. M yeah. Well, I you know I say to
01:53:33
myself, well, yes, I like the taste of
01:53:36
it, particularly the hazy pale alle
01:53:38
having a beer and and and that's fine to
01:53:40
have one of them. Uh red wine, a great
01:53:45
friend of mine years ago I played rugby
01:53:47
with who's one of the top heart surgeons
01:53:50
in the country, Richard Bundon. He's
01:53:52
retired now, but
01:53:54
>> he he told me one day, you know, a
01:53:57
little bit of red wine is good for your
01:53:59
heart.
01:54:00
And it's I love I love the flavor of a
01:54:03
good I love to drink a good quality red
01:54:06
wine.
01:54:06
>> So do I. Do you like a heavier one or a
01:54:08
pino? What are you into?
01:54:10
>> No, not so much on pinos. I'm I'm uh or
01:54:14
although a pinatage I I really enjoy.
01:54:17
South African pinage is very very good
01:54:19
wine. But I've you know Cabernet
01:54:23
>> Mhm.
01:54:24
>> I've I've got quite a few of them still
01:54:26
to go. M. Oh, I've got some wine at home
01:54:29
that'd be worth thousands of dollars.
01:54:31
The bottles, you know, the big jerobams
01:54:33
and things like that, but
01:54:35
>> wow.
01:54:36
>> I'm not Yeah, but I didn't buy them for
01:54:37
someone else to drink.
01:54:40
>> Um, how have you This has been a lot of
01:54:42
fun.
01:54:42
>> Some of some of these are going to come
01:54:44
out in my 80th next year.
01:54:45
>> Yeah. Oh [ __ ]
01:54:47
>> I have to push for an invite.
01:54:49
>> Um, how have you found this today as
01:54:50
someone that's not a huge fan of talking
01:54:53
about themselves? Like, is it quite
01:54:55
cathartic? Is it nice to reflect on some
01:54:57
of the stuff? Uh Dom, I've got to give
01:54:59
you some credit here. You you
01:55:01
immediately
01:55:03
relaxed me and and made me realize that
01:55:06
this is just a chat. There's no angles.
01:55:09
And that's something I really appreciate
01:55:11
when I get interviewed and that there's
01:55:13
not an angle. And uh reminiscing for me
01:55:19
with a with a complete stranger is
01:55:22
really enjoyable.
01:55:24
Uh, and you you you were did quite a lot
01:55:29
of this off the cuff based on what I had
01:55:32
talked about and things I'd said and I
01:55:36
found it very enjoyable and very
01:55:38
refreshing.
01:55:40
>> And put me in a really good mood to go
01:55:42
and pick up my new car this afternoon.
01:55:44
>> What is it? I I noticed you walked in
01:55:46
today with um an Audi umbrella, which
01:55:47
looks like you get complimentary when
01:55:49
you buy a new one. What's the new car?
01:55:51
Well, the new car is an Audi SQ6,
01:55:55
uh, which is a new model, and it's 100%
01:56:00
electric.
01:56:02
I love electric cars. I've had two. I
01:56:05
had a Porsche Tyan and and the Audi RX
01:56:09
GT
01:56:10
Ron. and uh they're fabulous cars, but
01:56:15
realistically now the I moved past cars
01:56:18
in into the hatchback or not the
01:56:21
hatchbacks of smaller station wagons. So
01:56:24
I'm really this is a it's a it's a whole
01:56:27
new concept of battery and uh uh uh
01:56:32
electrical platform that the Porsche
01:56:34
TYON and no the Porsche Macan and Audi
01:56:39
SQS have uh used together developed
01:56:44
together because they're the same parent
01:56:46
company and I'm really looking forward
01:56:48
to getting it.
01:56:50
>> Wow. Well, you heard it here first. If
01:56:52
anyone's um standing at a charging
01:56:54
station and there's someone there that
01:56:55
looks like Lori Mains, it probably is
01:56:56
Lori Mains.
01:56:57
>> Probably is.
01:56:58
>> Especially if there's if if you need if
01:57:00
you're not 100% sure, just look in the
01:57:01
boots, see if the golf clubs are there.
01:57:03
>> Yeah. See, I don't go far without them.
01:57:05
>> Yeah. Hey, this has been really neat.
01:57:06
Are you Are you proud of yourself?
01:57:11
>> Most
01:57:13
I I'm proud of what I achieved and what
01:57:16
I gave to rugby is probably a better way
01:57:18
to put it. I'm proud of what I gave to
01:57:20
rugby.
01:57:22
Uh
01:57:26
my daughters say that I should be very
01:57:28
proud of myself for them.
01:57:30
>> Um
01:57:31
>> cool.
01:57:32
>> And that's
01:57:34
>> that's the ultimate.
01:57:35
>> Yes. But
01:57:38
I I I come back to that issue. I have
01:57:41
regrets about not being there enough in
01:57:45
their formative years because of rugby.
01:57:49
M
01:57:49
>> but they both turned out pretty good.
01:57:51
I'm I'm very happy with them as people.
01:57:54
>> M
01:57:54
>> and um
01:57:57
yeah. So yeah,
01:58:02
I'm like, yeah, I can look back on my
01:58:05
life and say,
01:58:08
uh, yeah, I've I've I've done a fair
01:58:10
bit. And I think I've pushed myself to
01:58:15
the limits of my ability
01:58:17
>> in in whatever I I think that's
01:58:19
something I'd say that I'm very proud
01:58:21
of, that I pushed myself to the limits
01:58:24
of my ability and I'm still doing it
01:58:26
with golf.
01:58:28
Uh, I just wish to hell I'd played golf
01:58:30
when I was younger. I might not have
01:58:34
been through all this rugby pain. I I
01:58:36
might have been a professional golfer.
01:58:37
>> Yeah. And there's longevity there, eh?
01:58:39
>> Yeah. Well, the thing is, uh, I I'm I'm
01:58:42
actually quite proud of the fact that
01:58:44
last year I was I was down or over
01:58:47
summer I was down to a 3.8
01:58:51
handicap and I'm 79 years old. Wow.
01:58:54
>> And I'm saying, geez, how good could I
01:58:56
have been if I'd taken it up, you know,
01:58:59
when I could have hit the ball another
01:59:01
60 yards or 70 yards, you know, meters,
01:59:05
>> you know,
01:59:05
>> who knows?
01:59:07
>> Well, Lori Mains, this has been this has
01:59:09
been great. Um,
01:59:10
>> oh yeah, one thing I forgot to mention,
01:59:12
I read in an interview that Jon, he he
01:59:15
when he was still alive, he said you
01:59:16
were his favorite coach, which I think
01:59:17
says says a lot. Have you heard that? Uh
01:59:20
I I didn't but um I knew Jonah liked me
01:59:25
and and one of the things I I had helped
01:59:29
with other island players about how to
01:59:32
deal with him and Jonah was a very shy
01:59:34
individual initially
01:59:36
and I if I needed to speak to Jonah
01:59:40
about something I'd always go to his
01:59:42
room and speak to him on his own. I'd
01:59:44
never even suggest a criticism in front
01:59:47
of other players. And what I used to do
01:59:49
at trainings was give Jonah a couple of
01:59:52
things that he is very good at doing
01:59:54
like like we'll do a move off the back
01:59:57
of the line out. Now Loey, would you get
01:59:59
out there with a tackle bag to stop him?
02:00:03
And then it' come Jonah
02:00:06
and he'd sit Richard low on his
02:00:09
backside, you know, and everybody would
02:00:11
crack up and Jonah would feel really
02:00:13
good about it, you know. And I I was
02:00:16
taught by Earl for a start who who in
02:00:19
Wellington coached a lot of island
02:00:21
players, but by uh Michael Jones, Ronnie
02:00:25
Clark was another one who was very good
02:00:28
for me to talk to about the island
02:00:30
players. And I learned how to deal with
02:00:34
them. And I learned that you just
02:00:37
treated them totally different. And
02:00:39
here's the great thing about all blacks.
02:00:41
They all understand that. Even the ones
02:00:43
I used to rip up occasionally
02:00:46
occasionally they knew why they they had
02:00:51
not done what they should have done or
02:00:53
had been a bit off the pace and they
02:00:55
knew they were the whipping boys and
02:00:57
they accepted it.
02:00:59
>> It you know Steve Hton of this world on
02:01:03
but
02:01:04
>> yeah jeez stories for days. Um hey this
02:01:07
has been amazing mate. Thank you so much
02:01:09
for being so generous with your time. E
02:01:11
>> yeah well I Let me tell you something,
02:01:14
Dom. I'm now I'm over the moon that you
02:01:18
asked me to do this. This discussion
02:01:22
chat we've had today has done me
02:01:24
wonders.
02:01:25
>> How so?
02:01:27
>> Um,
02:01:28
it's really lightened me up about about
02:01:31
rugby and about that. It's reinforced in
02:01:35
my mind that there's nothing going on up
02:01:37
here because I can remember so many
02:01:40
things. um and and talking about it
02:01:43
again with someone who understands,
02:01:47
someone who is excited to be hearing it.
02:01:50
That that that all rubs off on me.
02:01:53
>> And uh you you've drawn more out of me
02:01:57
than I think any other uh media person
02:02:00
has ever done. Oh [ __ ] the camera's
02:02:04
still rolling. We got this. And I
02:02:06
appreciate it. Yeah. No, no agenda, no
02:02:09
gotcha. Just um just a good conversation
02:02:11
with a great New Zealander.
02:02:12
>> Yeah. Well, I look forward to doing it
02:02:14
again sometime.
02:02:15
>> Yeah. Well, let's do it at your place
02:02:16
next time and we'll crack into some of
02:02:17
those reds.
