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[Music] abas naari welcome to my podcast awesome man thanks for having me hey mate I I
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first of all I just wanted to um check in and um man you've been through a lot
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and I'm sorry for what you've been through thanks so much man honestly it's
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uh it's awesome to to share my story and to have different listeners every time I
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think we're going to cover quite a bit in this chat and uh yeah it'll be a
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really good conversation yeah oh no when I said sorry for what you've been through I wasn't talking about the stuff
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when you were seven I mean the Crusader season 24 that's a really good start I love you
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know what throw in the deep end you know what here's the thing anyone who hates
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the Crusaders all right anyone who hates the Crusaders just know we can't win
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every year it's nice every now and then just to share the title you know yeah so
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there was a that was a that was a cheap way to start you know what people hate the Crusaders but you also secretly love
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them yeah oh I know I think it was um yeah people got a secret joy out of their um demise this year after winning
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six years in a row they're the team that people love to hate but it's a dynasty
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you can't argue with it yeah six in a row speaking of Crusaders um you you you
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you go way back with Richie moonga you you're like childhood friends you lived
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on the same street yeah that's right uh I often joke uh kind of half seriously
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you know taught him how to kick and um that's my gift to gift to the country n
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just kidding man Rich's really good childhood friend grew up on the same street as us and um I think once we get
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into my story you'll realize just how awesomely small New Zealand is like where I come from where he comes from
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growing up on the same street and uh it's a pretty cool story for sure yeah yeah and you're still friends to this
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day yeah yeah yeah so still in touch um and it's uh awesome to see where his his
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life has ended up as well yeah yeah and um yeah he's done very well for himself
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um as we all know as uh you have you know we you've just flown in from Singapore basically come straight from
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the airport to here um you run a couple of successful businesses in Wellington you got a best selling book um you're a
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smart dude thanks so much man uh and I think but I think what makes even more remarkable is like the um you know the
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back foot that you started on yeah oh honestly one of the awesome things that's come out of writing this book has
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been the ability to just share my story I'm on the face I'm on the cover of the
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book and whatnot but the number one piece of feedback I always get from people who've read the book or listened
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to my podcast here is it's just giving them an insight into what the refugee
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experience is like like what we went through but also what's it like when you
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come to a new country like uh New Zealand adapting to a new culture the challenges you face so when I share my
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story you could replace me with someone coming in from elsewhere as well and it's the same thing same struggles you
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start way back at the end of the pack and you kind of put your head down and get to work and uh you know I've done
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pretty well for myself but it could be me it could be anyone else yeah I mean what you've done for yourself and and
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actually all your siblings as well and your parents it's inspiring um I think
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probably even more not to take anything away from you and your siblings but you know your parents that's a a different
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all together like arriving in a new country basically um control out Delete at the age of 30 or 40 however old your
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parents were and starting from scratch yeah your dad's got a massive business
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he 20 staff or something yeah yeah yeah I think you you hit the nail on the head
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when you're a a refugee or immigrant when you come here as a young child you're able to just kind of soak things
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up really easily your your brain it's like a sponge it soaks things up you're
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able to learn the language pick up the culture and the Customs make friends at school enroll yourself in the local
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footy club and you're away laughing right but when you come here in your late 30s
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early 40s whatever you're an adult your brain is already hardwired in you're
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kind of set in your ways and then to pick up a new language and a new culture and at the same time kind of Shed off
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the cloak of your own identity that you've built up over the previous decades it's a really hard Road you know
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and so adults find that Journey way harder but you're right uh I think one of the reasons why our community has
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done pretty well is that my parents and other family uh leaders within our Community have just kind of put their
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head down and said look let's get some work done and um our family story The
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you know the the car parts business that I talk about in the book that started for that's like the the Kiwi dream right
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there man that started off in a little shed in MadAss Street in Christ Church and and it's grown into this massive car
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parts Import and Export business uh based out of Wellington now and um that's that's the Ki success
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story yeah yeah yeah yeah like literally starting from nothing yeah absolutely um yeah so the the um the word Refugee
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in particular being a refugee um like is there is there a stigma with that it's
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not something I've ever really really thought about but yeah is there like some sort of stigma associated with that
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really good question man so uh June the 20th uh June the 20th is World Refugee day right and when you think about
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refugees often times the thought is usually something negative uh could be that you know there's a victimhood
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mentality there could be that oh poor these guys and and there is a negative stigma attached generally with refugees
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I think and to be honest that's how I used to view it I didn't like the word
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or the label being placed on me that abas Refugee from Afghanistan so on I didn't really associate with that that
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much I try to shed that off but over time I've come to see the other side of
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the coin because when you're a refugee you go through so many struggles that
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are almost uh un incomprehensible right compared to many other people's experiences so what you
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see off the back of that once you go through the struggles of of the physical journey to security and safety then the
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journey to try and build yourself up again in new country and so on that's an
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incredible feat of strength and endurance right there and so while there is some sort of victimhood and negative
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personas attached to it there's a massive other side to it and that is one of strength of perseverance of
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commitment and I think one of the main reasons why I'm so passionate about sharing my story writing the book and
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doing these kind of conversations is to help people understand that side too yeah that there is positivity there is
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strength attached to that word as well respect yeah because it wasn't until prepping for this um conversation today
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that I thought about the word I've got I've got no preconceived ideas if
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anything I I would think um Refugee is sort of like a like a victim yeah um that you found New Zealand or whatever
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the country they have to go to as a a safe place but yeah I if that was your experience for I I think there's
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definitely truth to that as well there is some victimhood and I don't want to
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kind of brush that away you know a lot of a lot of refugees do get victimized whether it's in their own country
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whether it's their actual journey to safety and then upon arrival elsewhere and you don't want to hide away from the
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fact that that is some people's experience but I also want to highlight the fact that there is enormous strength
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in that as well that the ability to you know I was a little child when we went on on our kind of Journey to to Asylum
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but if you imagine right you know listens to this podcast if you've got kids or whatever you pack up your entire
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life and you say we have to leave and I don't quite know where the journey is
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going to take us but you've got your children in tow and you're going to take
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them elsewhere right what a journey that you have to take on to freedom to security to safety uh that takes
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enormous grit and determination and that's also part of what being a refugee
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is like yeah that joury that you're talking about for you for you and your experience that was the best part of a
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year um and we will we will get to that cuz it's a hell of a story uh first of
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all like what are your what are your earliest memories from your first seven years yeah you know when I think back to
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you know my childhood in Afghanistan all I think about is this beautiful beautiful Valley that we kind of grew up
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in so I grew up in this tiny little village uh tucked away high up in the kind of mountains or the central plateau
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of Afghanistan and I remember my childhood was one of extremes in that it was just incredibly uh hot dry Summers
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you know I remember us and the local kids would go and uh swim in this little creek that gave the village its name Sun
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Joy right was translated to Rocky Creek or Rock Creek and in the winters I remember you know we have a heavy heavy
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dump of snow would kind of get early morning get the shovels out and kind of shovel our way out and connect our
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houses back to the other houses you know and it was just an incredible childhood
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growing up it was was definitely harsh it was uh but it was peaceful it was very uh basic in that you know everyone
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took care of one another everyone was that kind of subsistence uh rural isolated Community
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uh and I don't want to romanticize it right we didn't have water didn't have
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running water or electricity to our house or anything like that oh did you not your your house looks really nice
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though there's a photo of it in your book um yeah look looks beautiful it looks like it could be in Hawks Bay or
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somewhere classic kind of square mud brick clay house that is very typical of many rural settings in Afghanistan yeah
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and fruit trees everywhere that's right and that's the beauty about it right so
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gardening is a central part of Afghan and and and to a wider extent kind of Persian culture right you take great
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pride in having a a nice Orchard or garden out front and that's been part of
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the Afghan identity for for you know generations and so and the beauty the climate as well I often talk about to
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people who don't who can't imagine what where I grew up look like if you think
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of central otago it's exactly what it was like the mountains and the lakes and
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the rivers same same weather really hot dry Summers really cold Winters that's
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what it was like and so the climate lends itself to Growing you know like you said fruit trees and that kind of
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thing yeah so it's beautiful in that way so so by Afghani standards were you guys
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um were you guys wealthy or sort of middle class or on the poor side or uh we definitely I'd say on the on the on
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the Poor Side you know so if you're in a village in anywhere in rural Afghanistan
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right it is you own a patch of land hopefully and you in the house that you're in and that's it you know if you
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you've got a decent Harvest throughout the winter months that would kind of carry you through for the rest of the
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year any excess might be sold at the local markets and then the cycle will just continue on and on and that's kind
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of everything that everyone has known for multiple Generations yeah and and um what did it mean for you I'm just
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because I'm trying to think like when I was your age like say 0 to six yeah what
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what did it mean for you personally like when um the Taliban took over like how did your life change or did it change it
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all were you sort of aware of it or initially no like one from a childhood perspective you're not really aware of
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your bigger surroundings what's happening in your country right yeah so when the Taliban took over um the
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emerged in Afghanistan in the early '90s and then it was by the mid 90s '95 96 is
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when they were had pretty much Taken full control of the country I guess because of our sheer isolation where we
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were and so far away from the major cities which was the brunt of where the violence and the fighting was taking
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place we were shielded away in the initial years I mean we felt it economically um you
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know where it was harder there's less trading happening it was harder to get
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access to information hard to get access to trades and resources and that kind of
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thing uh so that's how we first felt it but then where it really started to impact us on a daily was starting to
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hear rumors and stories of what was happening in the cities like what of and and that's a question I often get like a
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bus why was it that your family specifically felt in danger or threatened away right and what we were
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hearing and eventually what we were kind of really seeing was this kind of complete kind of persecution against
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certain members of the Afghan community and particularly uh our our community we
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we call ourselves the Hazara people of Afghanistan um we look a little bit different right we have Central Asian
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genetic so uh we look a little bit different we speak a different language we worship differently you kind of look
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some I get that all the time Williams energy I get I get that all the time and so uh the thing with Afghanistan is like
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it's a beautiful Patchwork quilt of multiple different faces and ethnicities
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and languages and all of that but uh sadly what that is also meant is that if you're in the minority like we were uh
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it often means that you feel the sharp end of the stick the most and in my book I highlight all of the horrible things
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that have happened against the Hazara people of Afghanistan over multiple centuries
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and when the Taliban took over in their quest to uh you know rebuild the country
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in the way that they wanted to there was no room for anyone who didn't fit the
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bill for what they wanted and so we started to hear rumors and eventual you know verified stories of uh a campaign
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against the Hazara where it was where it was displacement from their lands to actual Slaughters that happened in in
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the major cities and we knew that perhaps at some point that they might come in and roll in into our village and
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so that was the turning point of Our Lives this this fear that set in we started to see fewer and fewer kids in
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school because families kind of packed up and left and maybe they had left to go internally within the country or
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maybe they left externally and left the country if they had the means there were
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few kids in school few livestock grazing the lands there was obviously the market
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activity completely closed down and all the bazaars and uh life really kind of took on a dark turn and that little
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image of what put in the start of what people thought about what what my Village was like it just suddenly became
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a dark dark place and so it's only a matter of time before we had to leave as
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well right so I'm guessing you know this in um retrospect because you've spoken
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to your dad and some of the other Elders about it and um you know you've researched for your book yeah um so but
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for for you at the time the day-to-day difference was maybe your parents being a bit like yeah like triggered or
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alarmed or worried and the the the kids in your school disappearing yeah that's
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right so again still a happy kid though yeah yeah I guess I don't want to downplay it but you know you're a child
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yeah if your parents are doing a good job then they'll be um shielding you from the stuff yeah that's right so uh
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the day-to-day stuff kind of continued onwards but it did become a parent that things weren't normal even to a child's
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understanding of what normal look like and so um it wasn't that much of a surprise
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when you know Dad said look we have to leave and you know I've hatched the plan
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and we're going to to leave and head over to get out of the country yeah which is a terrifying plan yeah can you
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remember that conversation of how your parents sold it to you or I remember distinctly the only part that said that
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tomorrow is going to be kind of your last day at school you know you go say goodbye to your teachers and any of your
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friends and uh by the time you come back uh you know I've got a friend who's
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who's who's going to take us out of here and did he say where no and to be honest
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I don't think the plans the extent of his plan was all that clear in his mind
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as well uh but uh I remember the next day going to school saying goodbye to our teachers and that uh dad has always
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been big on education you know some other Villages they might have left they probably didn't have you know didn't
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really care about it but he said look go say goodbye to and we had one teacher I
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remember him I didn't like him all that much either but say goodbye shake his
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hand and then came back home and that was it you know uh all of life's belongings were packed into a few duffel
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bags and as Lori came by um and we jumped into the back of this Lorry uh and it kind of took us away from our
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village and headed on out and the extent of the plan was eventually to to cross the border into into neighboring
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Pakistan which was relatively safer and that was it yeah so that was the first first part of the journey so you leave
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Afghanistan um eventually making your way to Indonesia long journey 6 months yeah um yeah what are your Recollections
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of that uh without going into too much much detail and leaving enough interest for listeners to this podcast to go and
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buy my book all right also you're here for a limited time only you've got another appointment
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so we need to no no really good question so basically man um when we left Afghanistan there was no greater plan
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when you're a refugee all you do is you think of what how to put food on your
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table that day how to put a roof over your family's head that day and you can't really think that far ahead and so
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we were living in this kind of on the outskirts of a major city in Pakistan and realize that we can't really go back
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can't really go forward when progress our lives here in Pakistan didn't have
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any rights or the ability to kind of rebuild our life and whatnot and uh when you're a refugee that's your basic
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existence your ability to impact your life is completely Stripped Away from you you're like a the way I describe it
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is you're like a number and a sea of numbers who you were back home your identity your role in your community any
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qualifications any connections you have doesn't mean anything you don't even
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have a government or an agency that might be able to Advocate on your behalf right you're this the stateless person
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and your number one priority is like especially if you have kids are they safe how am I going to feed them today
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how far back are they going to fall in their education what does their future look like and that's the Refuge
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experience in a nutshell um can't go back because you don't know when or if it'll be safe
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again and what's there to go back to and I want listeners of this podcast to
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think and apply that same question to what's happening around the world right
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now and you know you got the the um Israel Palestine Saga you've got Russia Ukraine right think of all those people
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about what what do they do right can't go back can't go forward they're kind of
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stuck and that was our situation yeah and yeah something that I think sort of um that's way less comparable but um
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there was a sense during the um the pandemic you know newal that were locked overseas and they felt like they
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couldn't even get back to their home country and just how insens people were
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were by that by that and you you know you and your family you're stripped from
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your your ego your identity and everything it's like it's an impossible situation for most of us to yeah even
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fathom I'm glad you brought that up I was in the states when when lockdown happened I was stuck out there trying to
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get a miq spot it was impossible but it it did bring exactly that point home that I hope people saw what it's like
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when you don't have any way for for when all of the barriers are locked to you
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you can't go forward you can't even go back home there's no way to kind of move
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your life forward that's what it was like and I'm really glad you brought up
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that point and so when you're in that situation especially if you got your family in tow you got to make some you
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got to make some harsh harsh decisions how am I going to move forward you got to knock down some doors and that's what
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you know my dad is the head of our family and other other fathers and that decided that we're going to try and seek
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Asylum elsewhere and we're going to seek Asylum in Australia and Australia it was
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um when I bring up that point and I've seen this in comments section and I see
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this in feedback and Q&A sections why why Australia right why' you go from the
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Middle East all the way to Australia was there not somewhere nearby that you could go to and to be honest has a valid
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point I remember this guy uh we I did this event in Melbourne when the first when the book first came out and this
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guy got up during the question and answer session and he goes you know boss great talk mate but what you guys choose
00:19:59
Australia right and and he he's very serious about this he goes was it because we just hosted the uh the Sydney
00:20:07
2000 Olympics and Australia looked pretty attractive on TV and you guys wanted to live here uh and I gave him
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you know I didn't know what to make of that question so I gave him an equally
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serious answer back I said no mate you know when we were uh when we were fleeing for our lives from the tban we
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didn't quite have time to watch the Sydney 2000 Olympics but um you know there was an ad running at the time they
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asked us where the bloody hell are you Bing the bikini your was like that's it
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that's where we're going all right the head worked but I got the G of what he
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was asking for right like why would you Peck up your life and go halfway across the world to to a place in Australia
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would never been to it's a valid point yeah and the best answer I can give for
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that is this if you draw a big ass circle around where we were living at the time there is no country around us
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that would be able to give us the opportunity to rebuild a new life you go to any of the Gulf States you go to any
00:21:02
of the Central Asian countries you go to as far as southeast Asia and that if you
00:21:06
arrive on their Shores the very best welcome that you could receive would be a blind eye to your arrival if that
00:21:12
country be it Iran be it any of the Gulf States and that if their country had some sort of semblance of political
00:21:18
stability they just kind of turn a blind eye to your arrival and maybe they might
00:21:22
get some un Refugee agency funds to host you but no way to rebuild a new life uh if they're going through political
00:21:31
instability what they do instead would be that kind of turn the guns around and kind of make an example of you and make
00:21:36
you the scapegoat and every day sadly hundreds of Afghans who try to cross the border into neighboring Iran for example
00:21:42
they get killed they get shot at they get drowned the Border it never makes the news and that happens on the daily
00:21:48
so why why Australia well we' heard that if you can make your way to Australia
00:21:52
you might be able to seek Asylum and seeking Asylum is something that we all have always have the right to have you
00:21:58
know uh if listeners to this podcast don't understand what seeking Asylum is
00:22:01
I'll use your rugby analogy before right there's a North and South Island Civil
00:22:05
War right and I know the Crusaders are going to win that one all the all the all the north
00:22:10
Islanders you know they Chief Chiefs matter all the north Islanders right they have to cross the border sorry
00:22:17
cross the border you know jump on the yach swim Across The Tasman seat to try and get to Australia then the Australian
00:22:22
government then has a duty to kind of seek Grant Asylum look at their case look at their story listen to their
00:22:28
evidence and if it Stacks up then provide tempor temporary uh protection for those people yeah you and I both
00:22:35
have the right to seek Asylum thankfully given where we live in Aro we never have
00:22:38
to exercise that right but some people do yeah so we're going to seek asylum in
00:22:42
Australia and that's why we ended up in Indonesia and from there you know jump
00:22:46
on a boat to try and get to Australia yeah so the six-month Journey from Afghanistan to um Indonesia um yeah lots
00:22:55
of drama yeah 6 months it's it's a crazy amount of time and it was during this
00:22:59
time that you turned seven you had your seventh birthday and then um you see the
00:23:03
ocean for the very first time you never seen the never seen the ocean in your life Afghanistan's a landlocked country
00:23:09
not many people know that yeah we're mountain people definitely not a sea fearing Nation that's one thing you and
00:23:14
I have in common on from palas to North which Another Mountain Nation yeah first
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time I saw the ocean it was hangi Beach and it was like the ocean [ __ ] I want to
00:23:22
go back um yeah so you see the ocean for the very first time it's dark at the
00:23:28
it's the middle of the night right when you get to the boat yeah yeah so so this
00:23:32
is the um palopa y yes Pala the Palapa 2 that's right yeah a rickety old fishing
00:23:38
boat that was called the Palapa 2 which would later find out and running joke amongst the community is you know what
00:23:45
happened to the Palapa 1 right you know would hate to know what happened to that
00:23:48
what did happen to Pala one palaa one probably is is sunk and at the bottom of the Indian Ocean I guess yeah okay so
00:23:55
you became very intimate with this boat so it's um it's an old um you commission or whatever yeah modified
00:24:01
fishing boat designed for 40 40 or so yeah 40 people and there was um how many like 4 438 438 of us yeah so 10 so 10
00:24:12
times the capacity so imagine like a studio apartment designed for two and having 20 people in there that's right I
00:24:18
suppose it's kind of like that like 10 times the capacity so describe the boat
00:24:22
for us so it was um so when we bought it it was middle of the night can't really
00:24:27
make out much about it um there's a lot of grumblings and I think to this day
00:24:32
I'm sure there were some people who saw it and said no way I'm getting on there
00:24:34
and then turned around I bet there were we can't tell there was that many people
00:24:37
was that much activity CU they been oversold and underived exactly the next day you know as as we get some semblance
00:24:44
of what was happening look around and definitely some sort of modified fishing boat I think that put in an extra layer
00:24:50
for for more people to be able to be crammed in um and it was you literally packed in like sardines you know your
00:24:58
shoulder to shoulder knee to knee with the person next to you you know with luggage and baggage and everything else
00:25:04
just kind of strewn in between uh multiple layers and there's some people on the top right on the open deck and
00:25:11
there was a couple of layers in the middle and then there's some people right at the bottom you know the kind of
00:25:14
cargo space with the engine and all of that so you didn't have a a beard or anything like that no of course not like
00:25:19
we were like literally on the on the wooden decking like sleeping sitting down laying eating that was it yeah and
00:25:27
so so the men were at the the very bottom near engine and the fumes exactly the younger fitter healthier sort of
00:25:34
Elder sons and fathers who had left their families behind they were in first and they were right at the bottom with
00:25:39
the luggage and the fumes and the engines and all of that and then kind of the families and those with young kids
00:25:45
were kind of a little bit higher up yeah how how much luggage how much luggage was he run very little very little like
00:25:51
you like a backpack with that's about it literally like a backpack full of just a
00:25:54
few personal belongings right cuz it's not like you're carrying your life's
00:25:58
belongings it's literally just enough to cuz we were told it was going to be a
00:26:01
two-day Journey yeah two-day journey to try and cross the Indian Ocean and head south to to the Australian Mainland so
00:26:08
so what did you have the seven-year-old a bus seven-year-old a bus with a backpack I'm pretty sure I had like two
00:26:12
T-shirts and a banana and I think a toothbrush and some socks or something very sensible very sensible I remember
00:26:21
distinctly that I I I had on a pair of jandals which I I lost at some point throughout the voyage and I remember I
00:26:29
missed them so much because and we'll get to the story but when we got rescued
00:26:33
the the ship that rescued us was this metal giant container ship so with a metal you know deck that would get
00:26:41
blazing hot in the Pacific Sun and I got like the bottom of my feet would burn to
00:26:46
a Cris with blisters that thick you know it was I remember missing my Jan was very much in that yeah yeah yeah okay so
00:26:54
so you get on this um you get on this uh yeah you must have asked your dad about
00:26:59
this like um yeah cuz it looked very unsafe yeah so why did your dad go on rather than
00:27:06
just like turn around and stay where you were in Indonesia I think that's honestly one of the biggest questions
00:27:11
like get on or don't get on right it's it's a massive point of contention But to answer your question
00:27:19
it's all about desperation right look at where we've come from we were living in
00:27:23
this little old village life is good like it's relatively safe you're in this
00:27:28
Community it's all we've known and that that's all we thought our life would be
00:27:32
and that was perfectly fine but suddenly through violence and conflict we pretty
00:27:37
much get uprooted out of the country and thrown elsewhere end up in a refugee camp we've got no way to go forward or
00:27:44
go back or kind of move our life around and then suddenly we find ourselves in the shores of another foreign country in
00:27:51
which your only two options are get on board this thing that you hope and pray Will Survive the journey
00:27:58
and assuming it does will be able to give you a chance at a new life you know should you be accepted for Asylum or
00:28:05
don't get on board and what are your chance what are your options if you don't get on board you might end up
00:28:10
begging or homeless in the streets of Jakarta right so it's answer your question it's desperation it's realizing
00:28:17
that you've been dealt a really bad hand and you just have to make do with that
00:28:22
you roll the dice you pray and you hope for the best and and that's why you know
00:28:26
so you said of damn damned if you do damned if you don't exactly and and that's to be honest man that's the
00:28:30
number one thing I always get from listeners of our conversations and people who read my book is like I can't
00:28:36
ever imagine doing that well neither did we it's not like it was planned but you
00:28:40
get put in that situation you have to do something right go forward go back but you can't stay where you are and to be
00:28:46
honest most of the uh our decisions I call them decisions our hand was forced right we had to flee our village we had
00:28:53
to leave that Refugee Village refugee camp that we were at in Pakistan and we couldn't not get on board this thing cuz
00:29:00
what are our options backwards right so it's it's very hard for people to
00:29:05
comprehend what we had to go through yeah yeah and and I I guess by that point your dad had used all the family's
00:29:10
uh resources available and it's like well [ __ ] we're into deep yeah exactly
00:29:15
so you've you've made it this far and the final thing is just this this boat
00:29:19
ride so that's right you've made it this far right so so um so Palapa 2 takes um
00:29:25
takes sale um how's it can you remember your first time on water on a boat seasickness that's the honestly bro
00:29:32
that's the number one thing I think about like when I was writing this book I was trying to imagine I was trying to
00:29:38
bring back all these memories out of the memory bank and the I can smell it so like so uh strongly absolute seasickness
00:29:49
across the entire boat like I said Afghanistan's a landlock country right not a seafaring Nation for many this was
00:29:55
many people's first time on the Open Water right not at the beach but on the
00:29:59
actual open ocean and we were getting rocked like everyone was seasick it was disgusting uh it was hot uh and that's
00:30:08
what I remember just seasick to the day but to be honest there was a sense of cautious optimism because people
00:30:15
realized this was the final step of the journey made it this far this was it just couple more days and we'll be on
00:30:22
you know safe dry land so there was this optimism that was in the air that didn't
00:30:27
last all that long because the engine gave out right this thing was already ancient we were out in the open water
00:30:33
we're being rocked back and forth and by the end of the first night uh this thing
00:30:38
starts making funny noises and by the middle of that night it's dead completely in the water and there are a
00:30:44
few people I think amongst us who used to be like mechanics in that back home who try to give some life and they tried
00:30:49
to repair this thing and I think they are initially successful it goes on for a couple more hours and then it's
00:30:54
completely dead and they realize it's beyond repair you so at that point you
00:30:57
just like bobbing around in the Indian Ocean and this complete Panic starts to set in we're just bobbing around in the
00:31:04
open ocean no real way to go back and forth no way to go back no way to kind of call for help or anything like that
00:31:10
and then now it's starting to panic and then we realize our situation there and
00:31:15
and some of the some of the me um I think I read this in your book um they like ripped some panels off the boat to
00:31:22
try and use them as yeah despiration anything you could like try to get some propulsion going rip some of the [ __ ]
00:31:27
off to try try and paddle this thing obviously you know to no avail up against the the ocean um and then we
00:31:33
start to see what the hell are we going to do so are your memories of this um you quite Vivid or is it just from what
00:31:40
what you out of the entire Journey the memories of being on the boat are the strongest because they're also the most
00:31:48
emotionally uh Intense or the most emotionally scaring uh being on the boat in that night of you know when we were
00:31:56
just kind of bobbing in the ocean especially when the next day we started to see the the clouds darken and then a
00:32:04
storm arrived the next day that's the the hardest part about for me to write
00:32:09
because it's so vivid I remember distinctly because of how packed in we were just like the shoulder-to-shoulder
00:32:15
every time a wave would come we all just kind of all of us be squished to one side and then the boat would kind of
00:32:21
balance out and then it'll be pushed on to the other side and I remember dead
00:32:24
kind of I think it was a belt or a towel kind of looped it around one of the rafters and kind of creating a handle so
00:32:31
that he'd hold on to us every time I you know get pushed this way and that way
00:32:35
and there' be luggage and and people who' vomited into plastic bags you know
00:32:39
there bursting and rolling around with everybody and freezing cold sea water dumping from on top so I can I can when
00:32:45
I think about it I can smell the damp wood and I can feel that Ocean Spray and I can I can can smell the the vomit and
00:32:53
the human waist that was in the air and it all in pitch black darkness too because we're in the middle of the night
00:32:59
right so that's the most Vivid part of my journey that I remember were you were
00:33:04
you fearful or were you you just looked to your dad for sort of C emotional cues
00:33:10
both I think as to this day when I think about it I don't think there was one
00:33:16
moment where I understood the why the bigger picture the greater context for why we were on that trip like why did we
00:33:24
have to leave our village I never really understood the gravity of it of course not you just
00:33:28
exactly exactly so I and even to this day when I try to imagine it I don't think I'll get a good grasp of it but in
00:33:34
that night I remember distinctly realizing this is about as serious as it gets because some of the parents were
00:33:40
crying some of the adults had completely lost it like in terms of they were in complete distress realizing that the
00:33:46
next wave could be the last that I've rolled the dice and the children that I
00:33:50
bought with me uh I'm I'm responsible for their Fates and so that was incredibly hard to write
00:33:58
about because I I interviewed a few of the the Tampa community members and they say as the head of the household you
00:34:07
want the very best for your children you want the very best for your family and for them the very best for their family
00:34:12
was this this this golden ticket to a new life but part of redeeming that golden ticket was we had to go through
00:34:18
the gaunlet and the gaunlet was being on this boat and they realized that they weren't going to make it and so trying
00:34:25
to put that into words for the average reader and I'm guess I'm struggling a
00:34:28
little bit now but trying to put it into words now for listeners of of my story about how hard it is to take that
00:34:35
decision but more importantly to then come to grips with the the consequences of that decision is incredibly hard um
00:34:42
and like I said I was on there as a little kid I don't think I fully understood it until that night yeah but
00:34:49
through I always say through faith through prayer through luck divine intervention whatever you
00:34:55
want to call it you know we we Sur surved that night and and and the next day um as the storm kind of rolls away
00:35:03
and the clouds open up uh you know trying to figure out what's going to happen next so did you manage to get any
00:35:09
sleep that night or no of course not no like did anybody or no nobody nobody what was everyone doing just like just
00:35:15
the most yeah just literally hoping for the best every time a wave would come we
00:35:20
all just we would hear the creaking and cracking of the of the Timbers and would
00:35:24
be rocked this way and then would be rocked this way and that way and this way and that way endlessly but the most
00:35:30
beautiful thing and this is a a memory that I have so strongly was that some point throughout the night I don't know
00:35:37
who started it but there's uh a famous prayer that uh is quite common as the
00:35:43
Traveler's prayer about hoping for safety someone started kind of bouncing that out at the top of their lungs and
00:35:50
everyone else knows it too and then this cacophony of beautiful hymns just kind of ran through the ship and it was
00:35:56
almost like our way of of battling the waves and it it it gives me like it is right now when I think about it it gives
00:36:04
me goosebumps thinking about all of us in that boat kind of yelling at the top of our lungs you know hoping hoping away
00:36:13
the the waves that were coming towards us and like I said you know it worked because we managed to survive that night
00:36:19
and the next day uh you know how yeah how long was the the praying for the whole night
00:36:26
until literally the the whole night like actually until sunrise [ __ ] well it worked eh yeah and it worked yeah is
00:36:35
that is that Allah you praise to Allah y yeah you know pray pray pray to God above and and and hope for the very best
00:36:43
yeah so so when the dawn breaks and the storm's passed um you feel a sense of
00:36:49
safety then or no you still think not safety relief relief that okay I think the worst of it has passed but
00:36:55
immediately followed by what are we up to now I feel you can make better decisions in daylight you you can
00:37:02
physically see the wreckage that you're in so the whole thing's still in one
00:37:05
piece there's holes and bits and pieces that are broken here and there people
00:37:09
start patching things up with like top Orin to kind and cover up the holes there's a human chain of buckets to try
00:37:14
and obviously heaps of water inside to try and you know oh really yeah so it was literally sinking at that point not
00:37:21
sinking but there was you know because of how much water was coming in on top is all down in the bottom level so
00:37:25
there's a human change to try and pump some of this water water out and but the
00:37:29
biggest question is like knowing that if another one of these Storms Come by that
00:37:33
we're not going to survive you know not going to survive and so we start looking
00:37:38
out for any kind of help or rescue or anything like that and and sure enough man like this small thing pops up in the
00:37:47
in the Horizon and everyone lurches dangerously towards it trying to figure out what it is right it's like is it a
00:37:53
boat is it an island is it a mirage what is it there a huge commotion people trying to make of it and it gets a bit
00:38:00
closer and closer and obvious okay it's a boat and I think it's hit it towards
00:38:03
us and then it gets a bit closer and it's okay it's a massive boat you know
00:38:08
it's find out it's a container ship what it like 250 M long or something like a
00:38:12
couple of rugby Fields yeah uh 250 M long container ship and you've seen how
00:38:17
big these things are right with container stacked Sky High and it was the the tamper hence the name of my book
00:38:26
and hence the tamper effect and I know there'll be light Bobs going off for listeners of this podcast cuz they
00:38:31
probably remember the Tampa Affair 2001 the Tampa was a Norwegian flagged cargo ship and it was heading from Perth in
00:38:38
Western Australia uh up towards Singapore and it just come to rescue us this thing pops up right next to the
00:38:45
Palapa and blocks out the entire Horizon right and uh there's a famous photo that
00:38:50
went and did the rounds and we get rescued we get rescued one of the largest rescues in modern Maritime
00:38:57
history there yeah there's so much more to the story which we we won't have time to get
00:39:01
into today but your plane goes past and you guys um use some of the wom's scarves and oil to write SOS on the deck
00:39:08
yeah um and eventually this the ship comes along so when the ship comes along is it a sense of relief like oh we're
00:39:15
not going to die instantly like the moment we are rescued by this uh we know that okay this thing is Unsinkable I
00:39:23
don't quite know where it's going to take us there's room for all of us
00:39:26
there's room for all of us but we don't quite know where it's headed but at
00:39:29
least physically we are safe right uh that was the immediate feeling and then so begins this this this thing this
00:39:38
political event in Australia and New Zealand and international kind of the community no is this the tamper Affair
00:39:45
so to give people like a 30 second rundown of it essentially what you've got is this Norwegian flagged cargo ship
00:39:52
right that is uh backed by the 100-year-old very powerful multibillion dollar vinus will helson shipping line
00:40:00
right and it has picked up a boatload of mostly Hazara Afghan Asylum seekers in the waters between Indonesia and
00:40:09
Australia and we're stateless essentially we don't have a country back home we don't have a government back
00:40:14
home that converge for us um we can't go back to Indonesia and but we're only a
00:40:20
few hours away from Christmas Island in which is an offshore territory of Australia and Captain renan makes the
00:40:27
decision to to drop us off at Christmas Island which is what is dictated by maritime law that if you're a vessel
00:40:36
that you've rescued performed a rescue out there in the open ocean that you go
00:40:41
to the nearest port and you drop these people off particularly if your vessel the tamper is now unseaworthy right he
00:40:48
didn't have 400 life jackets on board right he didn't have the the medical
00:40:53
clearance or anything like that to take care of us and and the nearest P was Christmas Island so he heads towards
00:40:59
Christmas Island and this's the late evening sunset or in evening of our rescue uh heads there we can make out
00:41:06
the island and there's great excitement we can make out the island and some of
00:41:10
the buildings and lights in that on the on the island and then he gets stopped gets a call from the Australian coast
00:41:17
guard to turn around take him El where Australia is closed so are you yeah what sort of messaging are you guys getting
00:41:25
on the Tampa are you aware going on or you just very little very little because there were very few English speakers
00:41:31
amongst us and so there was I guess a delegation I think of four or five people from our side who would go up to
00:41:38
the captain's bridge and ask what was going on and then relay that information
00:41:42
down not many people really understood what the hell was going on yeah yeah it's a lot most people were actually
00:41:48
preoccupied with their own cuz a lot of people got injured they were seasick they had fainted they had massive
00:41:53
bruises and broken bones and whatnot oh from the from the stor the paler so most
00:41:57
people actually preoccupied with their own physical self at that time to be worried about okay where are we going
00:42:03
let me just get you know fix up my broken arm first you know Al so people have like like broken Limbs and things
00:42:09
yeah yeah it was it wasy and a lot of uh children and a lot of the people who are
00:42:13
probably a bit more vulnerable had succumbed to dehydration and seasickness and and just you know a lot of people
00:42:20
and needing IV drops and that kind of thing yeah it was almost like a big medical scene out there yeah yeah so
00:42:26
let's get back a little bit so um yeah the photo of um the piper next to the
00:42:30
Tampa it's it's it's crazy it's insane um this is going to be a really dumb
00:42:36
question but um most people most of us have never been on a little boat and then gone on to like a big shipping
00:42:42
container how how how do you do that yeah is there like a massive ladder that go yeah K you not man the the Tampa
00:42:47
pulled up right next to us so if you were on the deck of the palaa you reach that you could almost touch it like it
00:42:52
was parked right next to us and the photo in my book kind of illustrates us really well and this massive kind of uh
00:42:59
flight of stairs drops down from the Tampa onto the deck of the Palapa and then the the sailors come down and um
00:43:07
they kind of do a mini inspection and then they begin an order so up you get one by one literally nothing but the
00:43:14
clothes that you're wearing no bags no personal belongings no jandal no jandals nothing
00:43:20
whatever you've got just the clothes you're wearing obviously go fast as you
00:43:23
can just like you would if you were doing like an airplane rescue right you know what they tell you leave your bags
00:43:27
and everything behind that was it and one by one we climb up the stairs yeah and that's when we find out cuz they
00:43:33
write a little number on our wrist to try and keep track of how many people have just been rescued and that's at the
00:43:37
end they told us 438 I think it's 433 mostly not all but mostly hazar Afghan Asylum Seekers and some
00:43:45
Indonesian crew yeah all up and so then um once every everyone gets off safely right yeah everyone gets off safely and
00:43:53
we're on the Tampa and and that's when kind of this whole thing kicks off
00:43:57
what happens to the um the palopa does it just drift away that that's the thing
00:44:01
so the Christian Malto who's the first officer of the Tampa he does an inspection of the ship and he thinks
00:44:08
okay we might be able to tow this thing but as he's making that kind of assessment the thing starts taking on
00:44:13
water and so he jumps off and by the time he's back on the ladder this thing
00:44:18
has started to submerge and I I don't remember this myself but some people said that when they look down back at
00:44:24
the palaa it was starting to submerge and break up and is now at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and all that was left
00:44:30
of it was some bits of debris and some wood that was floating and that was it so see you guys were arguably like hours
00:44:36
away from from sinking it was probably being kept a FL Maybe by people scooping water out potentially yeah yeah he said
00:44:43
at MTO I didn't get a chance to interview him but I remember know the first off say he did give an interview
00:44:49
saying we tried to maybe potentially tow this thing but it was definitely not seaworthy and it wouldn't it wouldn't
00:44:54
have survived in the wake of the Tampa if it was being towed um yeah I guess no no one was concerned about their
00:45:00
possessions or anything because youve you you got safety and that exactly so anything that people bought prize
00:45:04
possessions personal belongings cash jewelry valuables whatever that all that's all gone yeah down and there yeah
00:45:12
and then um so you you they have you like sleeping and shipping containers yeah that was never the plan like I said
00:45:18
the Tampa Captain renan wanted to drop us off at Christmas Island uh take just to take there right and it was very CL
00:45:25
it was only I think 2 or 3 hours away uh but once he got told that no you can't come in this begins a standoff
00:45:32
where he doesn't want to go any further right out into the open ocean to go somewhere else and his shipping line
00:45:38
from uh Norway backed his decision they said you're the captain of the ship we
00:45:42
you know we'll back your decision that okay whatever you decide we've got you
00:45:46
back and so he this begins a standoff between the Australian coast guard and the and the and and the captain of the
00:45:52
Tampa and by proxy us and so to make a accommodations for that night Captain renan and the crew they open up some of
00:46:00
the containers some of the empty containers that were on board and he said look if you need a place to stay
00:46:04
maybe men and women sleep in separate containers and and children other containers and we don't really have much
00:46:10
toilet facilities for all of you but I remember them bringing out plastic bags and buckets and putting in a makeshift
00:46:15
latrine in this one corner you know it was the most disgusting thing right because it's open sewage just being
00:46:23
there but obviously to this day and I'll make it very clear in the book we hold
00:46:27
nothing against the captain and crew of the Tampa like they did the very best with what they had in in all the
00:46:33
resources that they had under the circumstances yes they tra to tr to trade you guys with digity exactly so
00:46:39
they they did the very best with what they had and many of the Tampa uh community members have incredible
00:46:44
respect for for the for the crew and it was they knew that it was out of their control yeah but we so it begins a
00:46:52
standoff man like we end up instead of being dropped off it lasts into day one and to day two into day three where we
00:46:59
were not welcomed and we weren't getting any information from what was happening
00:47:04
back in Australia because we didn't even know obviously this pieces they would
00:47:08
pick up later but they were in the middle of uh me very very close election campaign this is the 2001 Australian
00:47:14
General yeah this is the 2001 Australian general election and Howard was seeking
00:47:18
a third term as prime minister uh we didn't know who he was or what the politics was or we didn't even know they
00:47:24
were having an election right but uh this is all in hindsight once we arrived to New Zealand we figured all of this
00:47:30
out right that irregular migration as the media was calling it it wasn't even
00:47:35
a top five or top eight issue or top 10 issue but Howard was going to capitalize
00:47:40
on that and irregular migration so he managed to spin it into becoming the biggest kind of vote winner and he was
00:47:47
going to make an example of the the tamper and so instead of being welcomed on I think is on I can't remember
00:47:54
exactly day three day four our welcoming party was 48 fully armed SAS troops Australian SAS who were obviously on the
00:48:03
order of the the commander and chief back back in camra were asked to storm the boat ready for action like these
00:48:09
guys were kitted up it's not like it was a you know in in in your fatigu it was
00:48:14
in military uniform right Ked out in all black for you guys fly armed yeah you guys could have been more vulnerable
00:48:19
than what you were stormed stormed the boat and surrounded us and they had essentially commandeered the the Tampa
00:48:26
they were now the the the people in charge and uh I I looked up the definition of piracy and it's exactly it
00:48:34
like they essentially commandeered The Vessel um and so begins a further standoff and made for a great media
00:48:41
spectacle and that's when the Tampa started to really make uh make the headlines here in New Zealand as well
00:48:46
and so we were held uh under the C under the direction of the Australian SAS now
00:48:51
trying to figure out what where our Fates lied and all the while we like when I tell the story it's crazy because
00:48:59
many listeners probably remember this ship floating in the Indian Ocean this red held ship but we had no contact with
00:49:07
the outside world there no media there was no you know NGO there's no government there was no doctors even
00:49:14
allowed on board we were held off perfectly bubbled away so that we couldn't share our side of the story
00:49:22
because they wanted to direct The Narrative right that by they I mean the Australian government at the time wanted
00:49:27
to direct The Narrative to to win the votes because if they were to see sights of Women and Children and Families it
00:49:34
didn't go against the it didn't go with the narrative that they wanted to
00:49:37
portray of national security threat of um aliens of because they didn't want to
00:49:44
put a face to the story they wanted to be seen as this threat they were pushing away and were saving and protecting you
00:49:50
guys yeah exz if there's a a clip on um Nightline or whatever of seven-year-old
00:49:55
AB bus with burned feet yeah probably you know there might be some some voters against that right yeah you're you're so
00:50:01
right when when you you look back on that now like as a as a very successful gr gr man like are you angry like are
00:50:09
you are you hurt are you upset I think like I said before if I had maybe a if I'd been a little bit older and I had a
00:50:16
better understanding of what we're going through at the time I definitely would
00:50:19
be and I know there are some uh people and some members who went through that ordal and they're incredibly angry um
00:50:26
because of how well our life has our lives have turned out in New Zealand and we get to support the All Blacks um
00:50:34
and Crusaders keep quiet about that yeah because of how well it's turned out uh I
00:50:40
don't think there's any anger or animosity yeah it's more the best honestly here's it's one of my favorite
00:50:46
things the best way that you can kind of uh show I'm going to use the word haters
00:50:52
here is to show your success we weren't given a chance to rebuild our life lives
00:50:56
in Australia thankfully New Zealand came to the rescue right someone in Helen Clark's office called up Howard and said
00:51:03
look we'll take them bring them over to New Zealand and we'll take 150 of them
00:51:07
because that's how many spare beds we have here in mangi Refugee resettlement
00:51:11
Center uh and that was a turning point in my life we'll take them and look how
00:51:15
well our lives have turned out so to answer your question I don't Harbor any
00:51:19
resentment or anger at the Australians for voting Howard or the Australian government at the time I just say look
00:51:25
how well our Liv turned out perhaps we would have been given the same treatment in Australia had we arrived but we don't
00:51:32
look back yeah I feel like you guys have you guys when I say you guys I mean your
00:51:35
family you've created your own Success Through through hard work but there's a
00:51:38
saying I really like don't get better get better yeah I love that exactly you
00:51:42
guys have done that so so you end up at um the Detention Center in mang uh and you have like a six week orientation
00:51:49
yeah yeah so what's the what's that um detention C like is it like a jail or
00:51:53
does feel DET so Australia has deten centers Australia detention centers on Naru on Manis Island and on Christmas
00:52:01
Island and it's a prison right like it is not a welcoming place it is a prison
00:52:06
with barbed wire and cells and they call it an offshore processing center New Zealand has what we call a resettlement
00:52:13
center and it's like a motel it's it's beautiful like every Refugee who arrives
00:52:18
to New Zealand uh you go through kind of a six week orientation program where here in mang right in South Oakland and
00:52:26
you arrive and you get like you get stamped and tagged is how I say you get stamped and tagged and given all the
00:52:32
numbers you need to survive in New Zealand you know your health check up make sure that you're all documented and
00:52:38
everything like that you've got all your social needs covered you get given an
00:52:42
introduction to New Zealand like this is where you are literally a map of New Zealand you know some of the laws and
00:52:46
customs that we have here and essentially all one-on-one yeah yeah uh I all one-on-one and then from there uh
00:52:55
you get resettled throughout the country so you guys end up in crushes do you do
00:53:00
you get a saying where you go or I don't think so I don't know if there was any
00:53:03
conversations the number one determinant of where you get resettled is the availability of social housing that's it
00:53:09
so and given we were a large cohort and at the time um you know there was a few social housing available we were all
00:53:16
resettled in Christ Church and that was it you know finally after all those months of being on the road and leaving
00:53:22
our village CH was going to be the new home from which for us to rebuild our new lives and we've never looked back
00:53:28
yeah and you you um yeah you you flourished really really quickly like um a couple of years after arriving bear in
00:53:34
mind you didn't speak any English when you arrived no that's the thing man I
00:53:37
learned my ABCs at the at the resettlement Cent mang like I remember distinctly all of us kids cuz once
00:53:44
you're there for 6 weeks you go through a bit of schooling and that too I remember learning the ABCs and our
00:53:50
numbers and the first word I remember was learning was the Abacus because it was very close to my name abas all right
00:53:57
and we used an advocus to learn how to write I don't know if they do that in
00:54:00
schools nowadays probably use a calculator but remember using an advocus to learn how to count yeah but yeah
00:54:05
resettled in Christ Church and and life for us began properly uh at the start of
00:54:11
2002 yeah yeah yeah I don't know if you're just if you're just a naturally
00:54:15
intelligent guy or just a hard worker um but you flourished in the school system
00:54:19
never learned how to spell soliloquy though sililo silhouetted silhou no you didn't you um
00:54:27
crash out of the Regionals with Soliloquy and then crash out of the Nationals so this is spelling be so you
00:54:33
how old I think I was uh what was it 12 something like that 5 years after arriving with nothing but the shirt on
00:54:40
your back um you're cleaning up in like a spelling well almost cleaning up so
00:54:44
kid you not bro I'm like I'm a big nerd right I I I soaked up everything like
00:54:49
learning the language I my favorite place when I was growing up was the local library um and and Richie Monga
00:54:56
used to bike past and go to the local rugby park right so I can see where where he's ended up and why he did that
00:55:02
but no went to the local library and honestly I loved it just soaked it all up we were in ESO right we were in ESO
00:55:07
programs because we didn't know how to speak English and then after a while once you kind of get that under your
00:55:11
belt you go into mainstream classes and then you kind of go from there but to to
00:55:16
cap off that story um like I said before kids just soak it all up and so we were
00:55:22
able to really our trajectory was like this like a rocket taking off learn the Lang language pick up the culture make
00:55:27
some friends get to know the kids down your street enroll in the local footy club and slowly but surely you start to
00:55:34
ingrain yourself and it's all smooth sailing from there now at this point I really want to highlight one thing and
00:55:39
it's it's that often times the refugee stories that you hear are usually
00:55:46
negative right someone who's been bulled at school someone who's had a negative
00:55:51
experience or maybe the systems failed them and that way and the other and and I don't want to make light of that
00:55:57
situation at all because it is the truth and it does happen for a lot of people but equally I also want to highlight the
00:56:03
fact that we were also products of the system and we loved every minute of it like we were never bullied at school
00:56:10
mostly because we grew up in a workingclass neighborhood in Christ Church we weren't the only brown kids at
00:56:15
school we were welcomed by our community in Upper ricken like they knew that you
00:56:21
know my sister and my mom they wear a head scarf they knew we were the new kids but we just kind of in and we're
00:56:26
welcomed by our school ricked and Primary School right we were enr enrolled in the aan United Football Club
00:56:33
which is you know no longer now and the reason I point that out is integration and assimilation is
00:56:40
successful when the incoming Community like myself and our community as well as the host Community they interwine like
00:56:48
this we're welcomed there was no Prejudice there was no racism or anything like that and if there was we'd
00:56:55
gone through so much worse it probably just rolled off our back it rolled off our back like we never I don't want to
00:57:02
downplay a lot of people's negative experiences but I'm also like bro have a
00:57:05
bit of perspective here so our community came in our our our host Community welcomed us and they gave us the
00:57:12
platform and the the foundation for us to live and build successful lives here in New Zealand if more of that happens
00:57:19
it's all really good stories but unfortunately what I see now is one of two things I either the new community
00:57:27
coming in doesn't want to integrate so they come in like this and that doesn't
00:57:32
that doesn't help or maybe they want to integrate but their host Community doesn't want them there and so what you
00:57:38
leave is friction instead of beautiful assimilation and integration what you get is friction and I kid you not I'm
00:57:45
seeing more and more of that not here in New Zealand per se but a lot in Australia and to a much larger extent
00:57:52
across communities in Europe having traveled there for the last month I see that yeah I um even with that sort of
00:57:59
local community support support I still can't imagine how difficult it was for
00:58:02
like your mom and dad you know incredibly hard but thankfully I don't know what the programs are like nowadays
00:58:08
but thankfully back then you know there was a lot of government funded projects for them to go into uh adult English
00:58:13
language classes to doing employment courses to getting their driver's licenses and all of that and hopefully
00:58:19
those programs are still there and being funded and if not I think they should be
00:58:23
because all of that help you you such a positive guy you make it sound so simple
00:58:27
but like it really isn't like I suppose for for you and your siblings it's like
00:58:31
you just had to get get to school and take it from there but for like I'm just
00:58:35
trying to um picture myself in your Dad's shoes like where do you where do you begin suddenly you're you're in a
00:58:40
new country you're in a state house you're on welfare um yeah how does he be
00:58:44
how does he build up his business from there where does he begin that's that's
00:58:47
the that's the ultimate question right there and I think there's some parts of
00:58:52
it and allow me to really kind of delve into this a little bit please do when I think about my dad I think of him as a
00:59:00
person entrepreneurial hardworking incredibly determined leader and of overall way more positive
00:59:11
very optimistic in his Outlook so when he arrived here he realized that he had mountains to climb learn the language
00:59:19
learn the culture get qualified get out of state housing build a new life all of
00:59:25
that are mountain that he had to climb and take us with him but he looked at that as an
00:59:30
opportunity rather than an obstacle and that has then kind of come down to me and my siblings and us as well that you
00:59:37
look at something and either you shy away from it because it's too daunting it's too hard and that's him personal
00:59:42
right you can apply that to a 100 different people you get 100 different results but because of who he is that's
00:59:48
then translated onto us and it's made us and my siblings and and the Nazar family
00:59:53
who we are today so to to answer your question it was him as a leader and other families and and the
01:00:01
parents of of those those families they said you know what don't look at this as
01:00:06
as some insurmountable Mountain that we cannot climb but rather just small steps
01:00:11
day by day and we'll get there there are others who would look at that and think
01:00:15
Noah it's all too bloody hard M it's the obstacles are too hard I'm weighed down
01:00:20
by whatever trauma I've bought with me it's I can't learn a language I'm
01:00:25
illiterate in my own language whatever other hundred different excuses and reasons you might have and some people
01:00:31
would look at that and think you know what you're right and pour you and maybe
01:00:35
take on that victimhood mentality but for us me I'll go the opposite way because you say no that is a lot of work
01:00:42
but it's look at the opportunity rather than looking at the obstacle and to further and he did this to further
01:00:48
really Hammer his point home he said would you rather be here in Christ Church with the opportunity to learn a
01:00:55
new language and pick yourself up or would you like to be detained on Naru where you don't have that opportunity
01:01:01
cuz that's what happened to those people who weren't resettled to New Zealand
01:01:04
they were detained and kept in detention in Naru for like four or five years before they were able to be resettled in
01:01:09
New Zealand that's disgraceful so that that kind of gives you some perspective
01:01:12
you know so I guess to listeners to this podcast you can apply that same mentality like as was obviously being
01:01:18
the refugee experience but you can apply that same mentality to whatever obstacle
01:01:21
they're going through right like the opportunity is this an obstacle or is this an opportunity yeah and for me and
01:01:26
my dad and my family and most of the members of the Tampa community of course it was hard but you know it could be so
01:01:33
much worse and that gives you some perspective yeah yeah what about trauma any trauma for you or nightmares or
01:01:40
anything or PTSD not for me I think I was at that perfect age where I remember enough but I don't remember some of the
01:01:48
heavier stuff uh lucky right yeah which you older siblings or younger SI older older I was one of the younger ones
01:01:55
older and and we we often talk about it yeah um my older siblings definitely remember more and I had to lean on them
01:02:02
a lot for for for the book uh but overall I think largely positive largely positive that uh and there were some
01:02:10
obviously that did have some trauma that they've learned to unpack over time uh
01:02:15
but overall largely largely positive yeah yeah yeah cuz you're a business owner you own a couple of um bft gems
01:02:22
well you've done a heap of [ __ ] though right you're a concrete layer for a
01:02:25
while uh you're an allright scholar I I'm I'm not smart enough to even know
01:02:29
what that means yeah now honestly man I've I've uh I've done a lot and I feel
01:02:35
like I've I've packed a bit in mostly because I just look at that as just an
01:02:40
opportunity like I had the great Fortune to go through the New Zealand education
01:02:43
system I worked at the New Zealand treasury in Wellington for a while that was eye opening just to kind of see how
01:02:48
government rolls or or doesn't work sometimes um yeah full bright scholarship to Georgetown University in
01:02:54
Washington DC I completed a Ms in security studies so International Security terrorism that kind of thing
01:03:00
and then uh I've always wanted to open up my own gym and managed to set that up
01:03:04
so shout outs for the plug all right bft Wellington Central and Wellington East shout outs to all my members who might
01:03:10
be listening into this podcast and um yeah wrote this book during lockdown 2020 I always joke that you know a lot
01:03:17
of people came out of lockdown and they learned how to like bake bread and learn
01:03:20
how to juggle I wrote a bestselling book so I'm pretty proud of that yeah yeah
01:03:24
yeah the book joke by the way I hope it comes across I'm not that cocky the the
01:03:28
the book's done very well and it was um released um yeah book publishers like to
01:03:33
put books out for Christmas or for Father's Day or Mother's Day this was a
01:03:36
Father's Day book yeah uh so it's put out the same time as um Sunny Bill's
01:03:40
book yeah Steve Hansen that's righton Bridges Simon Bridges did you um did you
01:03:45
did you um you don't you don't know him but you did you send Sunny Bill signed
01:03:48
copy Yeah man so mine went to number one and it took the number one spot for ages
01:03:53
and I I sent sent his AG I think a sign copy of the book and I said look you can
01:03:58
win them all mate and uh sign to busari but I never received a sign copy back so
01:04:04
I don't know what to make of that but that's all right that's all right but
01:04:07
you do kind of look like Sunny no I could you not bro he's he's my favorite
01:04:11
rugby player growing up for sure yeah I played centers so um I believe you were right too like can can canbury sort of
01:04:18
wck level uh made a few trials that's for sure but definitely not big enough
01:04:23
uh for can's tough man like I got to give credit like the canaby rugby system
01:04:27
is just a pipeline that produces Talent um and uh tough tough Academy to be in but it was good fun yeah and and what
01:04:35
about Helen Clark have you met her yeah I met her a couple of times um she she was one of the first to read the book
01:04:40
and I think she's reviewed it I think there's a quote from her uh on the front
01:04:44
um so she was a prime minister at the time and she's given multiple interviews
01:04:49
about the Tampa Saga and how it impacted her and and the beauty about it is that
01:04:54
once she left office and she went and did you know all sorts of things at the UN and whatnot she's still in touch with
01:05:00
a lot of the Tampa communities cuz a few of them were resettled in Oakland and quite a few of us in Christ Church and
01:05:06
she's made an effort to to catch up and and keep those continuations keep those
01:05:11
contacts alive uh I remember specifically in uh 21 when the Taliban retook Afghanistan she was on the
01:05:17
Forefront of advocacy doing a bit of fundraising and doing just kind of raising awareness about what was
01:05:23
happening there we were on a few panels together on online at the time and um just you know immensely proud of her
01:05:31
decision making throughout that time but also I think she's very proud of us and
01:05:35
our community and how we flourished in New Zealand you guys have really sort of like um repaid her for her decision yeah
01:05:41
100 which was maybe a tough decision at the time I I don't know I I can't
01:05:44
remember what the politics of at the time or how we were received but thanks for bringing that up man like I often
01:05:50
get put as the face of like Refugee success just because of the book and and a few other things but
01:05:56
I always always try and give it back and say you know you've made it if you arrived here in New Zealand as a refugee
01:06:03
and just look at the Tampa Community most of them in Christ Church they are business owners and they are Builders a
01:06:10
lot of them are in the trades tiling and painting and plumbing and that kind of thing they they have mortgages they have
01:06:16
kids in school a few of the uh girls especially have gone into nursing a few of them have gone into policing and real
01:06:22
estate and they are part and parcel of good old middle class New Zealand right they have kids that are born here that
01:06:30
hardly speak their own mother tongue they can't speak foresy because their lives are in New Zealand they have
01:06:35
Properties or their rent some of them have gone down the mental health system some of them have gone down the justice
01:06:41
system some of them are either multi-millionaires and others are still on on social welfare and the reason I
01:06:49
highlight that is that they are part and parcel of middle class New Zealand so you arrive here you put your head down
01:06:55
you get to work and you become part of the cloak of of of society m not all of it will be a massive success story but
01:07:04
you don't want to just focus on the pointy end right you want to focus on what's in the middle and by and large
01:07:09
the middle is just good old kiwis yeah you you and your family like it's just
01:07:14
um bloody hard work isn't it yeah it's hard work there's hard running a
01:07:18
business in New Zealand is freaking hard but eternally grateful like I think if there's one thing that listeners of this
01:07:24
podcast or readers of my book can get is just there is immense gratitude and and
01:07:30
there should be like enormously grateful for the opportunity to rebuild a new life here but it's also given us
01:07:36
perspective that how good how lucky are we to call New Zealand home like honestly like having gone through what
01:07:42
we went through having given having been given the perspective of life in new Ze
01:07:48
in Afghanistan and what our trajectory could have been versus what we have now man you can't be filled with nothing but
01:07:55
gratitude like of how lucky we are and it's sometimes like it's really good to
01:07:59
remind ourselves as kiwis that yeah of course this country does have its problems but it's also nice to just kind
01:08:06
of step back and say you know what despite that she's pretty good she's all
01:08:10
right did do you think some some of us in New Zealand are a little bit ungrateful like for being born into
01:08:15
privilege and not being aware of how good we've got it I think so I think it's
01:08:21
it's it's always nice to take a step back and say despite the troubles that
01:08:25
I'm in just really big picture it's not all that bad and you don't want to make
01:08:30
light of people's issues but they do need a bit of a slap in the face to say
01:08:34
come on bro like it's not that bad you know yeah that's the uh that's the BF
01:08:40
coming out give give them a um how were the how were the earthquakes for you uh yeah man 201 2010 2011 I was in school
01:08:48
you're like 16 17 at time yeah I was Burn High School our school was ended up
01:08:53
being used as one of those kind of recovery centers so one of the the civil defense centers you must be like not
01:08:58
again yeah yeah so um no they were I guess traumatizing for every canaban but and even though I'm based in Wellington
01:09:06
now um I love going back down I try to go back down at least once a month or so and I love what the city has become y
01:09:13
it's still going through that transformation phase but for anyone who's gone down to cross street recently
01:09:17
it's a beautiful city and I think longterm I reckon uh we end up basing ourselves back there yeah that's
01:09:23
brilliant and on your you're married and you've got a baby on the way yeah yeah
01:09:27
so Jen and I got married last year and now expecting uh a baby in a few months so that's going to be the next chapter
01:09:33
of Life man congratulations that's going to be that's going to be really
01:09:36
interesting I was thinking about that earlier um I suppose there'll be Milestones a lot do you know if it's a
01:09:41
son or a daughter you have girl girl girl yeah yeah there be Milestones along her life like when she's seven you'll be
01:09:48
like [ __ ] that's the age I was hopefully they'll give me some perspective of what
01:09:52
my parents went through and they kind of went on our journey to bring us here for
01:09:56
sure yeah what what what did um how did you meet Jen uh University canbury yeah we were both at at Uni together and you
01:10:04
know classic met and did you did you tell did you tell her a lot of stuff or she end up reading it in the book or she
01:10:11
uh that you did a quick Google I think no I remember no here's the thing I'm
01:10:16
pretty sure we were in a lecture once on migration and uh the the lecturer put up
01:10:23
a photo of the Tampa and I was sitting next to her and I think I mentioned or maybe I P my hand up or said something
01:10:30
like hey I'm on that boat and everyone cracked up because they they thought I
01:10:34
was joking and then I was like no no I'm serious guys I was on that boat and they
01:10:38
were like no you weren't and then I told the full story and they're like what the
01:10:42
actual [ __ ] but um no that's how we met and you been together you know how seven
01:10:47
eight years now yeah it's kind that's amazing oh congratulations yeah no thank
01:10:51
you ge you're so um you've got so much gratitude eh yeah I think such a positive dude yeah like I don't I don't
01:10:58
want to you know make light of people's problems and that but I think one of the
01:11:03
best things that come out of the whole journey that we were on was that it gave us a sense of perspective that
01:11:11
things can be so much worse that if we had chosen to if we had chosen had we stayed in
01:11:18
Afghanistan I don't know if I'd be alive right now I don't know if I would have
01:11:22
all of my limbs I could have stepped on a roadside bomb right um I don't know if I would be like the
01:11:27
the prospect for a young Afghan male is terrible they fall into drug addiction they might go down hope I don't know
01:11:35
National Security rout join the military assuming they survive I don't know like
01:11:39
it is dismal at best so I look at where I am right now and the opportunities we've been given I think how different
01:11:46
my life could have been and so once you kind of take full stock of all of that then there's no no chance but to be a
01:11:54
bit more optimistic and a bit more positive and I think if we all kind of maybe put on that perspective and put on
01:12:02
that kind of filter it it definitely goes a long way I think also equally there are a lot of people who who love
01:12:10
to highlight a negative story that that it's all about racism this and victimhood that and all of this and like
01:12:18
I say you don't want to you don't want to downplay that aspect cuz it is the
01:12:22
truth for some people but it's not the truth for everyone like I think of our
01:12:28
growing up in Christ Church and Christ kids a bad rap for being a white City you know it's a racist this and all of
01:12:34
that but I'm I'm the proudest you know Canaan there was because I love that
01:12:38
City it's made me who I am uh today the community that embraced us I'm still
01:12:44
friends with my childhood friends that went to ricked and Primary School um overall just like an incredibly
01:12:50
incredibly beautiful place to grow up and uh have the privilege of growing up there
01:12:55
and having now traveled the world a little bit and lived in different cities you kind of realize that New Zealand is
01:13:01
pretty special like we always kind of put down ourselves that all the kiwis are moving to Aussie this and that but I
01:13:06
reckon this is the place to be once you live and work overseas for a while you realize that we have it pretty good here
01:13:12
yeah so there's no doubt but to be positive I guess I don't know final words if there's one thing I want
01:13:18
listeners to this podcast to get it's that one refugees you know think of of
01:13:24
of course I don't want you to forget get that it is an incredibly traumatizing
01:13:27
and and victimizing experience but in equal measure there is an element of strength there as well you know
01:13:34
especially given you know this June 20th World Refugee day two that um overall you know there is an immense sense of
01:13:42
gratitude from the refugee communities particularly the the Tampa community that were resettled that the ability to
01:13:49
be given a chance to resettle in New Zealand we've made the most of it and we
01:13:52
we've grasped it with both hands and most importantly we've paid uh our Our
01:13:56
obligation back and three uh to to to go buy my book see that's the most profound one
01:14:06
right I was like oh these are getting bitter and bitter what's number three going to be you're a bloody salesman
01:14:12
doing my best oh I think that is a wonderful place to end it this has been inspiring man like how how can you hear
01:14:19
the story and not be not be pumped up and want to get more out of your own life seriously no thanks so much and
01:14:26
final word I swear there's no more after this when I got given the chance to
01:14:29
write my story I actually said no like I turned it down solely because I didn't
01:14:35
know if there would be interest I didn't know if I wanted to to share my story
01:14:39
out like that or if it would be received very well but now I get given the opportunity given the platform like this
01:14:45
to share my story and I love it mostly because there'll be thousands of listeners of this podcast who will walk
01:14:52
away and think holy crap I've learned so much much about Afghanistan I've learned
01:14:56
so much about refugees I didn't know what they go through what do they feel like about New Zealand do they love the
01:15:02
place do they hate the place you know and so listeners of this are now all educated about you know maybe one
01:15:09
person's perspective on it and and that's a privilege so thanks so much for
01:15:13
giving me the platform and thanks so much for listening abas nazari uh thank you so much for coming on the podcast
01:15:19
appreciate it guys thank you all right last thing you want to spell that word that word that [ __ ] you up in the
01:15:23
spelling be silhouetted I'm about to mess it up right now how do you is that so now let's go s i l h o u
01:15:32
e TDE e d let's go baby I feel like you're more traumatized by that than
01:15:36
most of the other I had to prove it to myself that I still got it thanks so much team
01:15:55
a