00:00:00
I remember when my mother rang me and she said, I can remember exactly where I was in Takani,
00:00:11
husband and I, I was in the passenger seat. We were driving over the railway crossing and my mother rang and she
00:00:17
said, "Your brother's got bowel cancer." And straight away in my head, I went,
00:00:21
"Oh my god, he's going to die." Not knowing what stage it was, not knowing
00:00:25
anything. And it was a two years. And one of the biggest regrets that I have is the day that he was told it was going
00:00:42
to be terminal. I said nothing. I was in the room and I I didn't know what to
00:00:47
say. Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:53
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:56
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:00
hole in one in two. >> He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
00:01:06
>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:10
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here. >> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:16
>> Putting performance first. >> Jenny May Clarkson. Welcome to my podcast.
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>> It is a pleasure. Seriously, I'm grateful for the opportunity to sit and
00:01:23
have a chat. >> Oh yeah. Why? just because I'm a nobody now and any chance I get to I don't know
00:01:33
tell my story um to have conversation yeah I'm up for it so I appreciate it yeah I
00:01:41
>> I just want to pull you up on something first of all um you're you're not a
00:01:44
nobody and you'll never be a nobody like my research in doing this it's like um
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yeah almost a decade in the silver ferns vice captaincy >> uh I was part of a senior players group
00:01:54
I'm not sure I was vice captain. I can't remember. That was a long time ago.
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>> God, this is going to be hard work, isn't it? A Commonwealth Games Medal.
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You were part of the New Zealand Police for um the best part of a decade. Um you've you had this highprofile media
00:02:07
career and I think you were so successful in media that a lot of people forgot about like the sporting the
00:02:12
sporting platform that led from one thing to another. >> I forgot. I forgot, but a lot of people
00:02:19
didn't actually. It was amazing the amount of times that I would turn up, you know, was doing media work and
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they'd go, "You're the former Silver Fern." And it still happens today. And
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I'm kind of like, man, that was like 30, well, not quite, 25 years ago. Um, so
00:02:38
it's a part of my life that I don't know, I tend to compartmentalize everything that happened such a long
00:02:44
time ago. But again, I mean, it's cool that people remember me from those days
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and some specifically how I used to play. >> Um, so yeah, left an impression
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somewhere along the line. >> So your silver ferns, by the way, I've got cards here with chapters on, so we
00:03:01
are going to go in sort of order, but okay. Did you you you were a a cop while a silver fern?
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>> Yeah. >> Those two sort of >> police officer before >> before a silver fern.
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>> So I joined when I was 19. Yeah. M did your career, your silver ferns playing
00:03:16
career overlap with um Bernie who I had on the podcast last year, Bernice Mini. Did she ever outsource any of her school
00:03:21
homework to you? Did she get you doing any marking or >> Actually, no. But Bernie gave me my
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Silver Ferns uniform. She was already in the team cuz she was a baby when she made it.
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>> Yeah. 17, I think. >> Yeah. And uh you know when you first get into the team and you're in a series
00:03:43
you're handed your uniform back in those days it was by one of the players and
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she gave me my very first um silver fern's uniform which was a huge honor even you know she was young but she had
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had so much experience by that by that time but um you know she never outsourced. Thank god she she didn't to
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be perfectly honest. Jesus she would have done better on her own. So, um, yeah, most recently, so we're
00:04:09
recording this in, um, I suppose mid to late January, and it was 2 months ago, uh, 20th of November, 2025 that you
00:04:15
finished on Breakfast TV after >> date even >> after five, six years there.
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>> Um, and at the time you said you were excited, anxious, scared, but ready.
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>> Yeah. >> 2 months on >> all of those things still. M >> um it's been a really interesting period
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and I think largely because I've always had things on the go. Um I'm in something and then I'm into
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something else. That didn't happen this time. So, it's been a couple of months of me trying to
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figure out what is the next step for me. Uh, I think the first week I was just enjoying the sleepins
00:05:05
and then I said the second week I'm going to get into my routine. I'll get
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up at4 to 6:00 in the morning. I'll get out to the gym. I'll do my journaling.
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Um, have breakfast and then get ready for the day ahead because we're still on
00:05:18
school holidays, right? So I did that in the second week and then in the third week which is around
00:05:24
Christmas time or leading into Christmas everything all the wheels fell off and that for me yeah it was an
00:05:32
interesting time because I was trying to figure out what was what actually was going to fit for me. I didn't have to
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get up at a set time. I didn't have a a job to go to. So what now? What does my life look
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like? what does my dayto-day look like? And it was all good for me to put in um a routine at a couple of weeks after,
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you know, leaving um a company that I'd been with for 20 years, >> been getting up at 3:30 in the morning
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for 6 years and all of a sudden that that routine was gone. So, I was trying to find my own. And if I reflect back
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now, it was probably uh not a dumb thing to do, but I think I was a little bit naive
00:06:23
and how everything would unfold. I was trying to create something, but I didn't actually know what the endg game
00:06:31
was. Um I feel like I'm getting there, but I'm still trying to figure out what my day
00:06:39
today looks like. And for me trying to create my own business, I'm not so, and again, this has taken a
00:06:52
couple months, I'm not so stuck on what my dayto-day should look like. At the
00:06:56
moment, I'm in the midst of school holidays, right? Got two nine-year-old boys. Our two big girls have come back
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uh to Oakland, so they're staying with us as well. And so trying to figure out
00:07:08
all those dynamics that are going on in the house whilst also trying to figure out what I'm doing. It's a lot going on.
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And so there have been a lot of highs, a lot of lows, a lot of me going, what is
00:07:17
it that I'm doing? What's creating meaning in my life? All of those big,
00:07:21
you know, questions whilst trying to live and get things done on a day-to-day basis. And so I've come to a space now
00:07:29
where I'm still trying to create what the future looks like, >> but I'm actually less structured about
00:07:36
it at the moment. Doesn't mean I'm not working. It doesn't mean that when I
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have an hour, I'm in there and I'm I'm working on things, but what it does mean
00:07:44
for me is actually changing my mindset of I don't have a 9 to5. I don't have a
00:07:50
3:00 a.m. till 10:00 a.m. and then a 2:00 p.m. to a 78 p.m. That life no longer exists. And what I create is
00:07:59
entirely up to me. That's a very difficult thing to get your head around when you've done it for so long. And so
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for me, it's just going, "Okay, just calm down, Jay, and roll roll with how
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whatever the day brings. And when you have a moment, take it. And when you don't, you just, you know, have to get
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by >> looking after the boys and doing what you need to do. >> Can I just say,
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>> yeah, >> I actually think I look like [ __ ] this morning because I had a rough night last
00:08:30
night. As my son would say, he crashed out. And if you have young children, you'll know what that means. Anyway, he
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had a bit of a meltdown. I had a meltdown. He couldn't regulate. I couldn't regulate. Thankfully, my
00:08:41
husband stepped in the middle. Got up, four kids at home, trying to clean everything. dropped them off at a mate's
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place. Didn't know didn't do my hair, didn't do my makeup. And I thought, you
00:08:50
know what? This is just life, man. Um, and I'm not going to stress myself out
00:08:54
by trying to throw on a little bit of makeup here and there just so that I can pretend in front of everybody else that,
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you know, this is just how I look every single day. No, this is how I look every
00:09:03
single day, >> minus the track track pants. >> I I think I think you look fantastic and
00:09:08
I love the authenticity. Actually, just before we started recording this podcast, we uh we had a a brief chat
00:09:13
about glasses. Um I'm I'm in the glasses gang now. Do do you need it for driving
00:09:18
for for seeing me for read it? For everything? >> Yes. Yeah, for everything. So I've got
00:09:22
progressives. So when I was on telly because you had your bits of paper in front of you, you had to be able to see
00:09:28
that far, but then you've also got the auto quue which is a distance away. So I
00:09:33
had to, you know, top bit for distance, the bottom bit for actual reading. And now I managed to get myself some uh
00:09:44
sunglasses. Progressive sunglasses. Game changer. You know when you walk around in a mall and you see people with
00:09:50
sunglasses on, you think, "What a dick." It's like you're not outside. I do that
00:09:54
now because I drive to the mall or wherever and I leave on my sunglasses because they're progressives and I can
00:10:00
see. >> So don't mock them is what I'm saying. >> No, I I think I got to 48 without
00:10:05
glasses and I said to a friend of mine who's a couple years older, I said, "I
00:10:07
think I've um dodged a bullet. like my eyesight's still good. And she's like,
00:10:10
"No, nobody nobody dodges the bullet." No. >> And then sure enough, a couple of years
00:10:14
later, >> found myself in the in the the magazine and card section of the supermarket
00:10:19
where the glasses are, and there was no one else there. So, I thought, I'm going
00:10:21
to try some on. Put them on. Oh my god, it's a game changer. >> Yeah. Well, it's ego that stops you from
00:10:27
doing it in the first place. Oh, it's fine. I can see everything. It's It's
00:10:30
fine as you're doing this kind of business. But yeah, I think when was mine? about 40 45 46 I think it was
00:10:37
>> when my eyesight started to go. >> Um I didn't have an issue with it. I
00:10:42
tried what do you call them? I >> was going to say cataracts but they're
00:10:47
not contacts. Can't do that. Can't do that. >> But um yeah, if I take my glasses off,
00:10:52
you're blurry. Yeah, >> it's better that way. Keep them keep them up.
00:10:57
>> Keep them up. Um >> no, I won't. >> I actually saw uh there was a post on
00:11:01
your Instagram just yesterday. Uh it was like something that you reshared and I just want to know if there's something
00:11:06
in this. Um you're not stuck because you don't know what to do. >> You're stuck because you know what to do
00:11:11
but you're not doing it >> 100%. How many of us are walking around like that? We're stuck in what we're
00:11:17
doing which is where I think I was too with breakfast. Stuck in it because it gave me certainty. It gave me stability.
00:11:26
It gave me a steady income which therefore I could take care of my family. Um, but I knew I wanted
00:11:35
something else and so I stayed in there probably a year at least too late feeling like
00:11:46
you were grateful for everything that it gave you, but that you were yearning for
00:11:50
something else. >> And there's so many of us, I think, that >> are living that life right now.
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>> Absolutely. >> And many of us want to step out of it, but we just don't know how.
00:12:02
or the responsibilities are so great that we don't, you know, we don't see a
00:12:07
way out of the situation that we're in. And I've talked about this before. It
00:12:10
took me a couple of years to actually be able to walk away um from what I was doing. And it took a
00:12:20
lot of uh work on separating my identity out from my work. It took a lot of planning about what is going to be the
00:12:27
next step. Even though that wasn't fully realized when I did finish, but I knew
00:12:34
the pathway that I wanted to go on and I was able to prepare myself to the best that I could
00:12:42
um before leaving. But yeah, and I'm I'm really passionate about that now because I I understand
00:12:50
how long it took me. And then the more conversations I have with people, whether that's online, whether that's
00:12:55
just, you know, talking with mates, there are so many who feel exactly the same way. They're just stuck in what
00:13:02
they're doing and they're not satisfied. They're not being fulfilled, but it's
00:13:07
it's fulfilling a need, right? And that need is stability. It's income. It's
00:13:12
paying the bills. And that's tough right now for a lot of people. And so to walk
00:13:17
away from something that gives you that stability sounds crazy. And I haven't fully realized
00:13:25
the impact of me finally becoming unstuck. But I have this huge belief that it is
00:13:37
the absolute best thing that I could have done and figuring out the next steps. uh just progression towards
00:13:44
creating this kind of life that I want. >> Oh, so you've got the data from your
00:13:48
half century on Earth that like whatever you put your mind to, you can do. >> 100%.
00:13:53
>> Yeah, you can do it. And there's there's that saying I really like um a ship is
00:13:57
safe in the harbor, but that's not what ships are for. >> Yeah. And it's it's about going out and
00:14:02
creating adventures for yourself, right? And if you stay close to the harbor, that's never going to happen for you.
00:14:08
>> So I understand the fear that is there for people. And so I do talk a lot about
00:14:14
it's just creating one step every single day towards becoming unstuck. We know
00:14:19
what we want. We don't have to have a clear vision of what that looks like. God, I have no idea. I mean, I have this
00:14:26
vision of what kind of lifestyle I want to create. I don't need a lot of things
00:14:31
for me. My priority is my family and my sons and and our big girls and creating,
00:14:37
you know, a future for them. And I'm not talking about moneywise. I'm just
00:14:42
talking about them believing in themselves and that they can create their own future. If
00:14:48
they don't want to work for somebody, well, don't. But what is the next pathway?
00:14:53
And opening their minds up to a different way. And so for me, that is a priority. But again, you know, I still
00:15:01
have to pay bills. We still have to be able to put food on the table. And so, you know, my husband
00:15:08
runs a um a charity and so we've, you know, between that and me not working,
00:15:16
there's there's a lot for us to be figuring out. >> But we're both committed to him living
00:15:27
his uh fulfilling his dreams, and there's me trying to figure out what that looks
00:15:33
like for me as well. And we're both committed to that. And doing that hopefully we can teach our children that
00:15:40
there is different ways of being able to live your life and you can create that.
00:15:47
>> Yeah, that's really powerful. >> Um, it's role modeling in a way. Show
00:15:52
some courage 100%. But you know, again, man, I've got no idea what the future is
00:15:58
going to look like. But what I do know is that I'm in a space now where I can
00:16:04
create that. And I'm really in even though there's uncertainty and, you know, there's a little bit of fear
00:16:11
wrapped up in all of that, >> it's an exciting space to be in as well and trying to figure out everything day
00:16:18
by day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and and the mountains that you've made it to the top of before, you don't
00:16:23
just decide one day you're going to go to the top of the mountain and get there. You have to do the do the steps.
00:16:27
>> I still think that though. >> Yeah. So, I suppose now you're you're at
00:16:31
you're at base camp and it's just deciding what direction of the mountain
00:16:34
to to go up for the next summit. >> Yeah. again. I mean, I I I know where I know
00:16:41
where I'm heading in terms of I know that I want to do something meaningful and I can do that
00:16:49
because of all the experiences that I've had and to be able to share that. >> Um,
00:16:57
and my whole life has been, you know, I started out doing sport science and then
00:17:02
I went into the police force when I was 19. While I was there, I studied as a teacher at Wakato University. Then I was
00:17:08
doing some radio and then I was doing a little bit of uh net commentary and then
00:17:14
I was doing sports news and then you know and there's been all of these things that have happened along the way
00:17:20
which have been amazing because I've not stood still. I've always kind of tried
00:17:24
to put myself into environments where I feel very uncomfortable. But the flip side of that too is that I
00:17:31
always have something that's next. next. That's next. And then all of a sudden in
00:17:37
my life, there's there's a next, but I haven't figured out what that next, you
00:17:41
know, what the clear clear picture is of what is next. And so that in itself has
00:17:48
created some anxiety for me because I've had all of these things and I've gone,
00:17:52
"Yep, that's the next thing. Yep, that's the next thing. Yep, that's the next
00:17:55
thing. Yep, that's the next thing." J walking out of, you know, um, a job.
00:18:01
But actually, there's no real clear. It's a bit foggy. >> So, it's had its, you know, benefits. And
00:18:09
now I'm experiencing the flip side of that and the uncertainty. But in everything that I've done,
00:18:17
there's always been some kind of fear in it >> and I'm in that space now.
00:18:21
>> So, I'm okay with it. I'm comfortable in it. >> Yeah. >> By the way, it's happened twice so far.
00:18:25
I love how you refer to yourself as Jay. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Is it is it like a Yeah. Like
00:18:33
almost like an alter ego thing or is it >> Yeah, potentially. I think it's just the
00:18:37
way that I kind of, you know, over the years I've spoken to myself. Um, and again, I go back to this confidence
00:18:44
piece and, you know, in moments where I've lacked some confidence in moments
00:18:48
where I've been a little bit anxious and having to talk to myself and go, "Come
00:18:51
on, Jamie, you've got this." I don't know. I guess I I still continue to do
00:18:55
that, you know, and have done for years. >> I love it. All right. Um, jeez, a hell
00:18:59
of a chat already. >> I know. Sorry. >> Okay. No, no, no. It's good. There's
00:19:02
There's a You're such a captivating speaker. I'm hanging off every word.
00:19:06
Okay. But let let's go all the way back. 9th of April, 1974. >> God. >> Earliest memories. Jay.
00:19:16
>> Growing up. No. Yes. Moving into our first home that mom and dad owned in
00:19:24
Pure and getting a TV. And it was the big TV that sat on the ground with the No, the
00:19:32
speakers were on the side and the remote and having a remote for the television.
00:19:37
>> You had a remote. >> We had a remote that you put into the TV and then you pushed it and it came out.
00:19:44
That was pretty exciting. Um, that's my earliest memory. I would have been about
00:19:51
three prior to that. No clues. I think I was just pushed around by my brothers and my sister and Yeah.
00:19:59
>> Yeah. Cuz you're the baby of the family. Six kids. Yeah. >> So, five older five older siblings. And
00:20:04
your parents ran the clover leaf dairy? >> Yeah. For a little while. My dad was a
00:20:07
um truck driver for a number of years before they took over managing the clover leaf dairy. Just still there.
00:20:14
Still in the main town of Pure. >> Um >> what was that like? That would have been
00:20:17
my dream at that age having parents that owned a dairy. >> Seriously. So good. I would go to
00:20:22
school, call in, grab my lunch, and head off to school or come home for lunch, have a
00:20:30
burger and fries and a coke, and then head back to school again. Yeah, it was very cool, but it was long hours. You
00:20:36
know, mom and dad were gone before I got up for school. >> Yeah. 5:00 a.m. starts.
00:20:42
>> Oh, earlier than that, because I'd open the shop up for um truckies that would
00:20:46
drive through cuz it's on the main highway. So they'd be gone, nobody home.
00:20:51
When I got home from school, usually one parent would come home, bring me some dinner, and then go back to the shop.
00:20:58
And then there was catering on the weekend. So they worked really, really hard. And again, they didn't own it.
00:21:03
They were managing it on behalf of the family. Um, so yeah, some good memories, but
00:21:11
also some lonely times too, you know, with parents just trying to get by. Really?
00:21:18
>> Mhm. >> Lonely in what way? I would have thought it'd be a busy household even without
00:21:22
your parents there. >> No, no, cuz I'm I'm way younger. So, my older siblings had gone, you know, my
00:21:26
older brother. Um, so there's me at 51. This is how I work it out. 51. Uh my
00:21:34
brother who passed away, he would have been 55 cuz he's four years between us.
00:21:38
My sister's 57. Um and then my other brother 59, other brother 61, 63. So the
00:21:47
two older siblings had gone. Um >> they must have felt more like um uncles
00:21:53
or aunties. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then my sister, her and I just fought all the time. And
00:21:58
my other brother, he moved out as well. And then he moved back home a little bit
00:22:03
later. >> Mhm. >> Um and then my next brother, he passed away when I was only six. So
00:22:10
you know that they were doing their thing as teenagers and then my two older brothers had moved to Ru at that time
00:22:16
and their mom and dad were at the shop >> Monday to Sunday. And so you know Christmases
00:22:24
all of those times there was lots of activity going on because everybody would come home. But in between all of
00:22:30
that, you know, mom and dad were working, I was at school, and then there was net ball. There was a whole lot of
00:22:37
other kind of activities going on, but >> it wasn't a full house while I was
00:22:42
growing up. >> Yeah. >> Um, you mentioned your brother that passed away. That's Charlie. You called him
00:22:49
Chara. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's him. >> So, uh, menitis at 10.
00:22:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. And did he have a a bike accident or something earlier to that?
00:22:59
>> Yeah, he sort of scraped with death earlier. >> Him and his mate, they um
00:23:06
were went out the back of our place and there's a bit of land out there and there's a hill. So, they took this bike.
00:23:16
It had um no seat, no brakes. I don't even think it it wouldn't had a chain. Anyway, they took it to the top
00:23:27
of the hill and my brother jumped on the front of it and his mate was behind him
00:23:30
and they went down. There were rocks all over the place. Hit a rock, fell off and
00:23:35
he split he split his head open right down here and we didn't have a car at the time. I
00:23:46
can't remember where the car was. dad might have. And it was mom was home and my brother
00:23:54
was home and this poor boy comes running. Oh, Charlie's had an accident. He's had an accident. So my brother runs
00:24:01
up. My mother's frantically going, "Go and get your brother." She runs next door to try and find a car
00:24:08
to get him to the hospital. And I can remember my brother carrying chala like this and there was just blood
00:24:22
blood everywhere. Anyway, they rushed him off to hospital and everything seemed fine.
00:24:33
Yeah. And then a few weeks later he died. Look at that. Look at that haircut. He
00:24:41
must have cut it himself. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, so, so the menitis had nothing to do
00:24:49
with the bike accident? >> I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Things >> things aren't so clear for me in that
00:24:57
way whether it was related or not. >> But yeah, he died at home. >> Yeah. In my father's arms.
00:25:12
What what are you So you were six at the time. He was 10. What are your What are
00:25:15
your memories of of that >> of the actual the actual time? >> I just you just confused?
00:25:24
>> No, I knew he'd died. I knew I didn't hear I didn't hear what was going on. I
00:25:30
don't know at what point I woke in the night. I remember the ambulance arriving
00:25:40
and my mom and I outside walking up and down our driveway. I was on her back just holding on and
00:25:48
she was just higgy backing me back and forth, back and forth. And then my grandfather, I don't know at
00:25:56
what point he arrived, but I do remember him being there and standing in the passage
00:26:03
with his head on the wall and his arm up and just saying, "Why wasn't it me?
00:26:10
Why didn't you take me?" Cuz he was named after my grandfather. >> Yeah.
00:26:19
I think he was the best of us. Of all of us. Why? >> Cuz he was funny, smart, and had a big
00:26:30
heart. >> I mean, we had some fights. >> Oh, that's standard though. Standard
00:26:37
sibling and stuff. >> He didn't like me because he was the youngest and then I became the youngest,
00:26:43
>> the baby of the family. >> So, mom had to say, "You're my youngest
00:26:46
boy. She's my youngest girl." >> So, he didn't like me very much, but
00:26:52
>> yeah. M. >> So my son's named after him, too. >> Oh, wow. That's powerful.
00:26:58
>> Charles. >> Yeah. >> It's funny how you were so young at the
00:27:01
time. It was like a half a It was a lifetime ago, really. Like Yeah. Say 45 years ago. Grief. Yeah. What have you
00:27:09
learned about grief? >> Straight away from seeing you talk about it, the one thing I get is it never
00:27:18
leaves you. Yeah. 100%. >> It never leaves you. Um, and I I think even more so now that I'm a mother
00:27:31
myself and I think about what my parents experienced losing a child. And I can't imagine that kind of grief.
00:27:44
you know, he was my brother who I'd only known for six years. But a parent's grief, I just I you know, I
00:27:53
don't know how my mom and dad coped. And as somebody growing up in a big family
00:28:00
or just I don't know, maybe I was just focused on myself. I never really saw
00:28:05
how that had an impact on them. It's not, you know, now till later in life and I sit down to have
00:28:11
conversations with my mom and she said, you know, I believed for 5 years that he
00:28:16
was going to come back. Every day I would think of him walking through that door.
00:28:23
I didn't know that about my mom that that's how she was coping with his passing. Do you think she just
00:28:31
did didn't want to share it because she was putting on a brave face for you guys
00:28:34
or? >> Yeah, as you do as a parent, you try and, you know, mask those things or you try to keep
00:28:44
that hurt from your children. But it wasn't until one of my aunties said to her, "Patty, you have to let him
00:28:53
go. He's not coming back." And for whatever reason in that moment, she realized that, you know, she was never
00:29:02
going to see him walk back through that door >> again or walk around the side of the
00:29:06
house. But yeah, grief, it never goes anywhere. It comes and goes and I >> I accept I accept when it
00:29:17
comes back. I'll quite often shed tears, be in the car, cry, and I'm okay with that. For me, that's about
00:29:32
remembering who they were and the impact that they had on my life. >> And when I say they, I'm obviously
00:29:42
talking about Chella, my oldest brother, Jeffrey, who died, and my dad. >> Yeah. So your brother Jeffrey 2018
00:29:52
>> was it 2018 you lost him to bowel cancer? >> Yeah, that'd be about right.
00:29:57
>> So um so he he had a car accident which gave him a like a brain injury.
00:30:02
>> Yeah, that was years before. >> That was that was years when I was at
00:30:06
school actually that happened. >> Yeah. And then bow cancer and then your dad passed 4 months later. Yeah. That
00:30:11
that must have been a [ __ ] of a year. >> Yeah, it was. M >> um I remember it's I remember when my
00:30:22
mother rang me and she said I can remember exactly where I was and Takani husband and I I was in the passenger
00:30:30
seat. We were driving over the railway crossing and my mother rang. She said, "Your brother's got bowel cancer."
00:30:37
And straight away in my head I went, "Oh my god, he's going to die." not knowing
00:30:41
what stage it was, not knowing anything. And it was a two years. And one of the biggest regrets
00:30:54
that I have is the day that he was told it was going to be terminal. And I said nothing. I was in the room
00:31:06
and I I didn't know what to say. I looked at my mom and my dad and the look on their faces
00:31:21
and I just thought, "Fuck, how do you as a parent, how do you sit there and
00:31:29
cope with that and listen to that?" We all walked out afterwards and I just
00:31:34
I didn't know what to say to him. I had no words. You know, I look back on that and I
00:31:41
thought and I think now maybe I could have just said I love you, but I couldn't cuz I was I was dealing with my
00:31:48
own stuff and not thinking about the impact on him. >> I was thinking about
00:31:57
me and how I was coping with it. >> Right. I need a tissue. Oh, there is one
00:32:03
there. >> Yeah, we got a box. Um, you you have to let go of that guilt though. Like you were stunned right in
00:32:10
that moment. >> Yeah, totally. And >> I don't know if I'll ever let go of it,
00:32:17
so to speak. >> I hope I learn from it, >> you know. >> But I was
00:32:31
grateful to be there when he took his last breath. to be able to spend, you know, those last 48 hours or so by
00:32:42
his side with the rest of my family at his home and to have that experience which was
00:32:53
beautiful really, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I suppose that's the one
00:33:00
maybe the one good thing about um a death from something like cancer. Like you do get the time to say the things
00:33:07
that you want to say. >> Yeah. And I probably didn't do that with my brother. I always
00:33:12
>> You just didn't have that sort of relationship. >> No, no, no. I My brother to me was
00:33:17
I looked up to him and and adored him. I just didn't know how to cope. M >> I didn't know how to cope with
00:33:31
him dying >> and what seemed most appropriate during those times was just just being there
00:33:41
just hanging out. But you know I also think about my parents and go for two years they watched him
00:33:53
and when my mom talks about him as a little boy you know she'll look at my sons and go
00:33:59
that's what he was like you just you had to put a harness on him cuz he was off. Nobody wanted to look
00:34:06
after Jeff cuz he was just >> he was off, you know, he just off he'd go and he just was such an adventurer.
00:34:15
>> And then from the diagnosis, you know, and my parents always had hope that he would get better, but they went
00:34:25
to his appointments when he was staying in Hamilton um for his treatments. they were there.
00:34:36
And that's exactly what you want to do for your children is to be there. But at
00:34:39
the same time, it must be heartbreaking >> to see, you know, your child go from
00:34:48
full vibrant and Jeff was still that, but knowing that there was inevitability about
00:34:57
what was going to happen. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Well, I suppose as a parent,
00:35:01
you're the protector and there's just nothing you can do. >> And I just, you know, you feel helpless.
00:35:08
>> What that time with my brother did though was gave me time with my dad.
00:35:12
>> Yeah. >> And so when he passed 4 months later again, I was at work.
00:35:18
I was sitting at my computer and mom rang me and she was just I couldn't understand what she was saying
00:35:27
and she said, "Your father's gone. He was mowing the lawns. He's gone.
00:35:34
They're working on him at the moment." And I just hung up and walked out the door, rang my husband
00:35:41
and said, "I'm going home." which is 2 and a half 3 hours away from
00:35:49
um central Oakland. And he said, "Do you want to stop and pick me up?" And I
00:35:54
said, "No." I said, "I'm going. If you you can follow me down, I don't care,
00:35:58
but I'm going." And when I arrived home, he was lying. There are other people there.
00:36:11
and he was lying on the mattress in the house. So, they'd moved him. And there's a whale,
00:36:23
a sound. When your heart is so broken, it was one of my biggest fears seeing my dad. Mhm.
00:36:44
I miss him every day, but I'm grateful for the the lessons, the me saying, "Dad, I don't know what
00:36:53
you're saying. What are you talking What do you mean? What do you mean?"
00:36:58
>> He would talk in kind of circles. >> You know, whereas now I'll go,
00:37:05
"Yeah, got it now, Dad. Yeah, thank you for that. I know where you were heading
00:37:08
with that. You know what you were trying to teach me, but >> I was grateful for the time I got to
00:37:16
spend with him with my brother being unwell. >> Yeah. >> So, I felt at peace with the time that
00:37:25
I'd spent with my dad and the conversations that we'd had. >> Would I have liked more? Yeah, sure.
00:37:35
>> But we had a lot of time together. And so I felt I felt, you know, what we say to I felt settled with where
00:37:47
I was with my dad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because you didn't didn't speak
00:37:53
any Maldi in the house growing up and by then you'd done full immersion Moldi. So
00:37:57
you and your dad Walker, you'd have full conversations in Moldi together. >> And you know, and it was beautiful. was
00:38:02
I mean we used to go to Warriors games and take Scotty Morrison's book with us
00:38:05
which has got phrases in it for sport and we'd sit there and I'd say these
00:38:10
things' be looking at me going what what are you talking about and I'm like I
00:38:13
don't know this is what it says in the book you know way up in the stands this
00:38:16
is when nobody used to go to the Warriors way back in the day and it was just our thing and he would drive up you
00:38:23
know every few weekends just to sit with me be with me to help and encourage me cuz he was so proud Mhm.
00:38:31
>> of me learning tel. But one of the one of the other huge lessons that my dad
00:38:35
taught me is one day we were sitting outside and we were having a conversation in Mari and I was in it
00:38:41
man. I just loved every moment of it savoring you know that time and my mom was sitting there. She kind
00:38:49
of was getting up going back in the kitchen coming back out again. And he said to me and Mai
00:38:56
you need to speak English. And I was like, "Well, why?" Cuz you know, we're
00:39:02
on a roll here and I'm enjoying it. And he said, "Because your mother, you're
00:39:06
leaving your mother out." And I'll never forget that lesson that he taught me in that moment cuz it
00:39:12
wasn't just about the it was actually just in general is being mindful of others.
00:39:20
And even though at the time I was, you know, pretty pissed off because this is what I had longed for for such a
00:39:28
long time and my father was saying, you know, we just need to to stop here. It was a powerful powerful message
00:39:39
>> and I still think about that you know now when I'm full on speaking in Mari
00:39:44
with my boys and making sure that if there's others around just translating it although they answer me in English so
00:39:51
you know people get the context of the conversation that we're in but you know
00:39:54
not making people feel like they don't belong in the room or that you know they
00:40:00
can't be part of the conversation. >> So I'm mindful of that. as well
00:40:07
in things that I do. >> Thanks for that, Dom. >> No, thank you. Thanks for sharing all
00:40:12
the stuff. Oh, no. It's um gre grief sits very close to the surface, doesn't
00:40:16
it? >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's sometimes it's things and it comes in moments and waves when you
00:40:22
least expect it. And that's why I've leared just to go with it >> and if I feel it, just Yeah. Let it
00:40:31
happen. Um, when do you find the the sort of feelings come up the most? Is it on like
00:40:36
birthdays and Christmases or is it just random songs on the >> It's never It's never any of those big
00:40:42
moments. It's usually when I'm driving in the car and I'm thinking about something,
00:40:48
>> whatever that is, >> and it'll just be a lesson. >> Um, movies are a good
00:40:56
bloom and you know, brings back a few memories. Um but mostly in those moments where I'm on my own.
00:41:06
>> Yeah. Maybe with a bit of space to think and remember. But you know, I have
00:41:13
photos of my dad and my two brothers in our lounge. So I'm talking to them all the time,
00:41:21
>> you know, or if I'm get up in the morning and I've got to go and open up the curtains and I'll look
00:41:27
down, I go morning at you fellas. >> Wow. >> And so for me, I want to keep that alive
00:41:32
for our sons. Um they've got, you know, photos of their tupuna on both sides of our family
00:41:40
in our lounge. And I think that's really really important and it's a way to honor
00:41:45
them and keep their memory alive and talk about them as much as we can with the boys about the experiences that
00:41:54
I had, the things that they said. And my boys really love that actually. They really enjoy it when we start to
00:42:01
talk like that. Whenever we go back home, cuz you know, mom's still living in the same house
00:42:06
and my son will go down to the room, I want to look at photos and he'll want to
00:42:10
know how Koro and Nana Patty got together. Um, oh, you went on a date with me, but you you know, cuz you know,
00:42:17
I talked to them and, you know, they love having those kind of conversations. They like understanding who they are
00:42:25
>> and where they come from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think that's the one of the nicest
00:42:29
things you can do to honor someone. Like if I was if I was dying of a terminal illness and my friends were like, "Hey,
00:42:33
we're not going to forget you and we're not going to let people forget you." I
00:42:36
think that would mean so much at that point. >> Yeah. And that's what we that's what we do
00:42:41
within our family as well >> with again on both sides on both sides of my husband and I.
00:42:49
>> Um I know that stuff's not easy. So thanks so much for sharing it. >> Yeah.
00:42:53
>> You know, I just Yeah, >> I don't think we should be a afraid of
00:42:58
grief. all the emotions that it brings up. >> No, it shows you care. >> Yeah. And as hard as it is,
00:43:10
>> I think there's healing to be had in it as well. >> Um, I've got a quote from you here.
00:43:17
Being moldy, I thought was something I should tuck away and hide. >> Yeah.
00:43:22
>> Um, I think that was through your teenage years. >> Yeah. >> When when when was the decision made to
00:43:26
reconnect? Um, it was always there was always a want there. >> Uh, even throughout my playing years and I'll
00:43:38
never forget the time we went to the Comwalth Games over in um Manchester 2006 and we were being welcomed.
00:43:52
Was it New Zealand House? I don't think it was. It was somewhere else. So anyway, the whole New Zealand team was
00:43:56
going and then um I was asked, our team manager came to me and she said, "Oh, um could you do the
00:44:04
Kanga to bring us in? They're going to welcome us. Can you do the return karanga?" And
00:44:10
I went, "No." And she said, "Well, we actually don't have anybody else." I said, "I've never
00:44:17
done a Kanga in my life." I said, "I'll have to ask my dad." Asked my dad. He
00:44:22
said, "No. He said there must be it's got to be somebody else. Somebody else can do it.
00:44:28
You know, I'm not I don't have my I'm not connected in that way in terms of the
00:44:34
language. Anyway, I went back and said, "Oh, look, I can't do it." And they
00:44:36
said, "Well, actually, we've got nobody else." So I learned and I remember in that moment just being
00:44:44
so profoundly proud of being able to do that and having the whole New Zealand team just kind of and
00:44:53
cuz they understood you know that it was an I was nervous first time I'd done one
00:44:59
actually not the first time I had done it previously at school but the strength that I gained from them
00:45:06
knowing that you know they knew how significant that this moment was for me. And so there's always been those moments
00:45:12
throughout my life where it wasn't really a matter of if it was just when >> me
00:45:22
letting go of you know whatever things had happened in the past or my thoughts in the past not really what happened but
00:45:31
my thoughts from the past and actually embracing that and going yeah this is who I am and it's okay to be proud of
00:45:37
that and it just took time for me to figure that out. And it didn't come till later
00:45:44
on in life, but it was a time when I was ready. Again, I was at TVNZ. We I was working on TVZ7
00:45:54
and we knew that the funding was going to be cut the following year. And in that moment, I went, well, I'm going to
00:46:02
take charge of my future. So, I've always wanted to go and do one year total immersion. So, I'm going to go and
00:46:07
do that. So, it's just about timing, I think. >> Yeah. Being ready and timing.
00:46:15
>> How difficult was that? How hard was that? That one year full immersion.
00:46:18
>> It's one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. Seriously,
00:46:21
>> feeling dumb every single day, >> feeling even more disconnected because the thing that I hadn't realized
00:46:30
at that time was the trauma in terms of this is my language. Why do I not know about why can't I why why can't I learn
00:46:41
this? Why isn't it coming easily to me? I should know these things. There was so much that came with that.
00:46:50
But every day I would go home and if I wasn't in tears, I'd be sitting there
00:46:53
just staring at the ceiling going, why is this so hard? I was on my own at the time. So actually I had no
00:46:59
responsibilities. I had the time to be able to kind of get home, put hours into remembering words from that day.
00:47:11
>> But in terms of like experience, it was one of the hardest things I've done.
00:47:15
Seriously, hands down. >> But the most rewarding at the end of it. And I mean and I was told at the time
00:47:27
and it's where I am at the moment you know the kind of journeys like this. So
00:47:31
my learning went from here to up here and then it continued for a couple of years after that and then once I had the
00:47:40
boys kind of my learning has really really >> understandable >> understandable and
00:47:48
>> cut yourself some slack J. Yeah. Yeah. But now I'm wanting to get back on that,
00:47:55
you know, journey and and kick on again. >> Yeah. >> Because I have conversations with my
00:48:00
sons and I committed to speaking to them only in Marti. Well, I can't do that now
00:48:07
because the conversations that I want to have, I simply don't have the words or
00:48:13
some of the sentence construction that I need to be able to have those in-depth conversations with them. So I'm going in
00:48:19
between English and Mai with them. And so I want to be able to have all of those conversations in Del Mi if you
00:48:29
know if need be >> and I'm just not there and I want to be there. So just starting up an online
00:48:35
course this year and we'll see how that goes. >> So you do one year full immersion and
00:48:39
then then you're sort of like a almost like a lifelong student of the language.
00:48:43
Totally. Yeah. Right. Right. Once you start, >> you know, once you start, you're in it
00:48:48
for life. And it'll come and go depending upon what environments you put yourself into, um, how much learning
00:48:56
that you're doing, cuz there's always new things to learn, whether it's new
00:48:59
way, new kaka, whatever. Um, yeah. Or, you know, new words. I mean, kids nowadays, they're coming up with
00:49:07
different words for cuz there's things that, you know, back in the day you didn't have that are being created
00:49:13
nowadays. And so these kids are creating words for that. So there's always learning to do.
00:49:18
>> So if you're having a conversation now with someone that's really good, like
00:49:21
say a Scotty Morrison or a Shane Jones or someone like do you feel like um an imposttor or Totally?
00:49:28
>> 100%. You know, and this is that's the thing. Um Scotty and Stacy, I'll never
00:49:32
forget their uh kindness when I was learning. They would come over to the little
00:49:40
apartment that I was staying in and I'd get a have a couple of mates from the
00:49:45
class that I was in and they would come over and just sit for a couple of hours and answer any questions or go through
00:49:53
anything that we weren't quite sure of because we were in total immersion. So, you can't
00:49:58
speak to your teacher and ask I don't understand this because they're in a
00:50:02
process. They're in a process of your learning. They know that you're going to
00:50:05
go through different stages, right? but they stay in Tadel Marti the whole time.
00:50:08
So sometimes you're sitting in class sitting there going, I have no idea what's going on or why is a sentence
00:50:16
construction like this? When do I use E? When do I use key? And so being able to
00:50:21
sit with Scotty and go, so when is it, when do I use this one? And when do I use that? What does this mean? And he
00:50:26
would just sit there. Him and Stacy would just sit there and answer all of these questions for us.
00:50:31
They uh invited me into their home to sit with their children who were all totally fluent in Tel Mai and just sit
00:50:39
with them bath time, bedtime, reading books to them and because their passion for the language
00:50:52
and wanting to help in any small way that they possibly could. These are the like
00:51:00
two busiest people on the planet and yet they still took that time >> to sit and help in those moments and
00:51:09
I'll I'll never forget that. >> Um anyway, what were you saying? Did you
00:51:16
ask? I can't. >> Oh, I was no just asking like if if you feel like an imposter when you
00:51:19
>> Oh, yes. And so, you know, I have that background with people like Scotty and
00:51:22
Stacy. And yet, when I'm in their presence and we start talking, I'll start and then I'll go, "Oh my god, oh
00:51:28
my god, I don't know what the word is. [ __ ] I'm just going to go into English." And so, I'll revert back to to
00:51:35
English. >> And I have my moments where I get, you know, kind of get the courage to be able
00:51:40
to speak in Del Mi. And yet, they will always be encouraging of that. And the thing I know about them too is that if I
00:51:48
use a word in the wrong context, they'll correct me because we have that kind of
00:51:51
relationship. Um, I feel safe in that, but it still doesn't mean that I, you
00:51:57
know, still don't feel like an imposter when I am >> sitting and talking with them.
00:52:01
>> You, you're um, you you're made of tough stuff. Like, you've done a lot of tough
00:52:04
stuff. And, um, you say full immersion is the toughest thing you've ever done.
00:52:08
Why didn't you quit at some point? Why don't you come up with some story in
00:52:11
your head about how busy you are or how you would park it and do another job? how I'm built.
00:52:15
>> It's something that I always that I wanted. >> It was about completing it
00:52:26
and doing it well. >> I don't think I've >> You don't do anything by halves ever,
00:52:33
right? >> No. >> And I don't I don't know. Again, I just think I don't know. I don't know. You
00:52:38
know, I think about >> Well, probably from my mom, actually. The more and more I've got to know my
00:52:42
mom, the more and more I see her >> stubbornness and I see her the complexity about her.
00:52:51
>> Um, >> so stubbornness I feel like stubbornness has got a negative sort of connotation
00:52:56
to it sometimes. >> Yeah, potentially. I don't see stubbornness as a negative so to speak.
00:53:02
It's that real grit >> and determination to complete something. And I think that's how mom and dad
00:53:08
raised me. If you're going to do it, you do it and you finish it. >> I don't care if you don't like it. You
00:53:14
started it, so you finish it. >> Um, and I'm like that now with my sons.
00:53:20
I don't want to go to training. Oh, well, hard luck. Get in the car, mate. You're off. You committed to this at the
00:53:25
beginning of the season, so you're going to go all the way through to the end. At
00:53:28
the end, if you don't want to do it again, that's fine. But you're not
00:53:31
quitting now. Um, I don't know. I just think I've Yeah. way I'm raised.
00:53:39
>> It's like the line aim. My mama didn't raise raise no quitter. Um our
00:53:43
upbringing seemed very similar. It was like, okay, if you do, if you want to play tennis, that's a we we're getting
00:53:48
you a tennis record, but you're playing all [ __ ] season. >> Yeah, that's it.
00:53:52
>> Whether you like it or not. >> That's right. And at the end of it,
00:53:54
okay, we can have a conversation about it, but you know, don't come to me halfway through and say you don't want
00:54:00
to do it anymore cuz it's hard. Well, hard luck because you're committed to
00:54:03
yourself first and you're committed to your team. So, you know, you quit now,
00:54:09
you let yourself down and you let the team down. And then at the end of it, at least you'll know whether you want to do
00:54:14
it or not. And sometimes life just gets hard and you got to move through it. >> And again, you can make that decision
00:54:21
later, but right now, sorry, mate. >> Such good attitude. God, I wish we could
00:54:25
bottle that up. >> Yeah, >> it's going to serve you well for what
00:54:29
like whatever happens next. I think so. You know, and it's I mean, I've I've had
00:54:36
a lot of ups and downs, >> but what I know to be true about me is that whatever happens,
00:54:44
it'll serve me in the future, >> good, bad, and taking the lesson out of
00:54:50
that. I like looking back and trying to figure out what it is that I've learned. I like
00:54:59
checking myself. about why things have an impact on me, whether that's ego, whether it's something else, and then
00:55:09
learning from that and hopefully becoming a better person as a result of that. >> I like being reflective.
00:55:19
>> It's hard though, like life does come with adversity and um lows and it's it's
00:55:24
hard when you're going through it to go, okay, there's a lesson in here.
00:55:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Often it's only in the rear view that you can >> No, that's the thing. You hear people
00:55:32
talk about that and you just go, "Fuck." Hey, cuz you don't know my story.
00:55:37
>> You don't know how hard it is that things are at the moment and the
00:55:41
pressure and all of those sorts of things. So, I try not to say things like that. There's a lesson in it, but I know
00:55:49
that to be true for myself. No matter what's happening, I'm sitting there
00:55:53
going, "Okay, something's going to come out of this. I don't know what it is, whether it's a
00:55:58
lesson, whether it's something amazing at the end of it, but I always know that I'm growing in
00:56:05
some way as a result of the experiences that I'm having, good, bad, ugly, whatever it is.
00:56:12
>> Yeah. >> My god, we've been going almost an hour. We haven't got to the card about the
00:56:16
silver fins or the police or the media stuff yet. Um, since we're on the uh the
00:56:21
the uh today stuff, the um the mock, what was the Yeah. How big a was it a big decision?
00:56:28
Was it a spontaneous thing? Did you have to You were on TV at the time. Did you have to clear it through a programming
00:56:33
department or anything? Was there >> um >> There's >> so many questions there. I'm sorry.
00:56:38
>> No, no, no. That's That's cool. And No, it wasn't spontaneous. It was something
00:56:43
that had been hanging around in my thoughts for a number of years. And as my mom said when I went home to
00:56:56
tell her that I'd made the decision, she went, "Oh, yeah. I knew this day would come." And I was
00:57:04
like, "What?" She said, "No, no, I always knew that this, you know, would
00:57:08
come for you." And it was one of those things that had been coming and going, coming and going, and
00:57:19
then it stayed with me for a long time, weeks. And there's, you know, sometimes you
00:57:28
have to actually just sit and feel it, listen to it. And I sat outside with my husband one
00:57:41
morning and I said, "I'm going to get my cow." And he just looked at me and went,
00:57:46
"Awesome, babe." And again, for him, it wasn't it wasn't a surprise.
00:57:53
>> Um, and then his questions start to come. So, are you going to get it done?
00:57:56
You know, how you going to have the design? What all of these? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. Like,
00:58:02
I'm just at this point in time where I'm finally at peace. It just it seems like
00:58:08
a natural thing for me to do. And so there was a whole process around that and I spoke to people who I
00:58:15
who I trusted who I knew were the right people to talk to. And then once I had kind of been through
00:58:24
that process for myself, I then went to work and said, "I'm getting my coai." I
00:58:32
didn't ask. >> Mhm. >> I just said, "This is what I'm doing."
00:58:35
And I knew that there was the potential for me, you know, to go, well, actually can't do that. I don't know why, but in
00:58:44
my head, I thought, well, if I lose my job as a result of it, then so be it. >> It wouldn't look great in a personal
00:58:48
grievance. >> No, it wouldn't. >> The optics aren't awesome.
00:58:53
>> No, it wouldn't. And I thought about that later. But in the you know whilst
00:58:58
making the decision that wasn't something >> of course >> that was a game changer
00:59:04
>> for me. So it was a process and you know again everybody's different about how they
00:59:10
arrive at their decision and yeah and then the process after that was actually really really cool going to
00:59:18
talk to my mate you know from school we pretty tight and then talking to my auntie and then making the decision
00:59:25
about where who would be there um and then going home and then going to see my dad
00:59:35
you know and what he might have thought about it. >> Oh, >> or going to see your dad after you got
00:59:40
it done or >> Yeah. when you know at the UPA the cemetery where him and all my uh tupon
00:59:47
lie and taking my kawaii to him. He Yeah, I think he'd be proud. >> Yeah.
01:00:00
>> Oh, 100%. Right. >> Oh, yeah. It's funny. My dad's like my
01:00:03
my dad and I he's crack up. because he's always taught me about it's
01:00:08
not about you, it's actually about those who have come before you and you're a
01:00:14
representation of that. Um, took me again a long time to figure that one out when he said it's not about
01:00:20
you. Anyway, yeah, I think he'd be proud, my dad. >> Oh, 100%. What What does it What does it
01:00:28
mean? By the way, I called it a moco before. Am I Is that wrong? >> Cow. It's a mo kawaii. uh cuz it's on
01:00:35
your chin. >> Okay. >> And the placement of it. But in essence, mo a tattoo.
01:00:42
>> Um it's about it's a representation of who I am as >> Mai.
01:00:49
Um because you are in no doubt of who I am and where I come from. And so for me in terms of the design
01:01:03
there's a certain way that kawaii uh designed and it was interesting actually because
01:01:13
the conversation that I had with my um both my auntie and my friend actually cuz I thought there was a certain you
01:01:21
know you had to have it designed a certain way and both of them said you do it how you
01:01:28
want to do you're the one that has to wear it cuz there's only one other person in my faro
01:01:35
that uh had the kawaii that I know of and that was my great grandmother, but there was no photo of hers.
01:01:51
But we had faro who have a recollection of what it looked like. And so my auntie, my brother, my dad's sister
01:02:00
took that co-way. And so there were thoughts for me, do I go and ask? Is that you know something that I can ask
01:02:09
for? And then in the end after conversations with my auntie, it was kind of like no
01:02:15
that one it's not for me that and at the same time it was really important for me to connect with both
01:02:23
sides of my faro. So my mom's from up north and my dad's from PTO. So it was important for me to connect
01:02:34
with both of those sides. But so I went up I went up north and had mine done um with my sister and my mother and my
01:02:41
husband present. >> Yeah. >> Incredible. And >> so that's that's what it's a
01:02:46
representation of who I am as a maldi. And um when you look in the mirror in the morning now, like do you do do you
01:02:55
forget it's there or do you >> or when you asked I you know for me it's
01:02:59
just part of who I am now. So I often will forget that I'm wearing it >> until I see a little kid come and kind
01:03:07
of go like this to me or go like that or whisper to their mother which I love. Seriously, I love it because it's it's a
01:03:14
conversation starter. you know that >> and again norm not I hate to use the
01:03:20
word normalize but you know to have to say it's okay if you want to ask me a
01:03:23
question that's fine do you want to touch it do you want to have a look at it because I feel
01:03:29
that's what I want to do when I see somebody's kawaii I want to look at it
01:03:34
>> I want to have a look at the lines and so I'm not offended >> by that
01:03:41
um but I look back on photos now and that doesn't look like me without my kawaii.
01:03:48
I'm kind of like, "Oh, yeah." And my sons are the same. They're like, "Oh,
01:03:51
you don't doesn't look the same, mama." >> Yeah. So, it's just part of who I am.
01:03:57
>> From um a TV perspective, was there more viewer response about um the cow or gray
01:04:03
hair? >> TV viewers are weird, aren't they? The ones that interact. >> You know what? It was probably more
01:04:10
about the gray hair to be perfectly honest. It's quite pleasing in a way. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, the ones about
01:04:20
my co were probably a little bit more intense, if we put it that way. >> Um, but yeah, you're right. You know,
01:04:28
people pick up on different things. I remember there was a lot of complaints about when I first got my glasses and I
01:04:33
I was getting used to them, so I'd kind of take them off and on. Oh, you know,
01:04:39
inbox flooded. Lay them on or take them off. One or the other. >> So muchment. Okay, cool. I get it. I'm
01:04:49
sure at some stage they'll stay on. I'm just getting used to them. Just give me
01:04:52
a bit of space. >> But you know, I mean, people notice. That's cool. >> Yeah, they're watching.
01:05:01
>> Hey, they're watching. That's the most important thing. >> Um, okay. Let's let's talk about the
01:05:07
policing career for a little bit. So from um 1994 to 2003 um you're a police
01:05:12
officer in the Wiccado. What so you dreamed of being a silver from the age of 11 but I suppose the sport was
01:05:20
amateur so you needed a job. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um from age of 10 is when I knew I wanted to be a silver
01:05:28
fern. Um, I wanted to help people and being a cop was one of the ways that I thought that I could do that. So, from
01:05:40
early teens, I knew that that's what I wanted to do. And at 19, I mean, back in the day, 19,
01:05:47
I mean, jeepers, again, I kind of go, you need some life experience, sister. >> I I mean, I wouldn't have it any other
01:05:56
way. the amount of, you know, when I went into the police force and the time that I spent in there, but I certainly
01:06:02
encourage people nowadays go, you know, go go do a few things before you go into
01:06:06
the police force because it's pretty full on and you're dealing with a whole
01:06:11
lot of different circumstances. And if you haven't lived life, you kind of going into some circumstances
01:06:19
whereby you don't have an understanding. Mhm. >> Um and so life experience I think before
01:06:26
going into the police force is is something that can really really help your the way that you cope with things
01:06:31
or even approach um things that you will experience within that time. But I I loved it. I really really loved it. And
01:06:41
the only reason I left was because I couldn't see myself as a 40 plus year old woman doing front line. and I didn't
01:06:47
have any aspirations at that time to go any further up within the police force. I love being on the front line, loved
01:06:55
dealing with people. Um, moved sideways slightly and started working with young people. Um,
01:07:02
>> like a youth aid officer or >> Yeah. moved into youth aid at the same
01:07:06
time that I was studying full-time at university. So, it kind of, you know, dovetailed all
01:07:12
of that, all of that work. And I loved that. I loved having >> the opportunity with young people to
01:07:22
just kind of sit with them, talk and maybe on some level have some influence on them.
01:07:33
Hence, which is why I started, you know, training to be a teacher and then realize pretty quickly it's not really
01:07:39
me being stuck in a in a classroom, you know, all day. Although I did do PE and health because those are the two
01:07:47
subjects that went together and I wish I hadn't done health. Sorry, PE. I got frustrated with kids
01:07:53
that, you know, would just make daisy chains while we're all trying to learn a
01:07:57
sport or, you know, do some kind of activity. But the health side of it, I loved it. Loved
01:08:04
Yeah. loved that subject. >> Um, but yeah, I love my time in the police force.
01:08:11
>> Do you remember your first arrest? Um, >> is that something you remember as a cop?
01:08:15
>> Yeah, I do actually. It was a guy broken into a house. Um, and so I can't I remember the house. I don't
01:08:27
remember anything else, but that was my first burglary. >> That's got to be the weirdest thing.
01:08:34
Like um you're cuffing someone and taking away their their freedom. Like it's got to be I just can't imagine that
01:08:39
feeling the first time you do it. >> Yeah. Yeah, I can't remember that. But
01:08:43
>> Mhm. >> I do remember being on station duty. So, this is partway through your training.
01:08:50
Everything's changed now. You did six months down at police college and then
01:08:53
you spent 3 weeks actually on the job working. I mean, you had, you know, you could tell you were a recruit. So, I was
01:09:03
working in Tequitti, which is 20 minutes from my hometown. So, I was working there and then I was in Hamilton for a
01:09:12
couple of nights, I think it was. And I do remember it was a busy night being dropped off outside the police
01:09:20
station in Hamilton with a guy in handcuffs and the cops in the car going, "Just take him in and we'll deal with it
01:09:28
when we get back." I didn't know how to get in the police station. So, I'm standing I'm like, "Okay, I know
01:09:37
what I'm doing." Standing outside the police station going, "Ah, okay." I
01:09:42
didn't have a radio, no nothing. Walked up to the doors. They opened. Walked in. I was trying to, you know,
01:09:48
like knock on and go, "Hey, I'm out here." Anyway, ding, ding, ding, ding,
01:09:53
ding. Somebody from the watch house finally comes out and goes, "Who are you?"
01:09:58
Obviously, I was in uniform, etc. I go, "Oh, I'm a police recruit. just guys
01:10:02
have told dropped me off here with this. Oh yeah, just come through the back. I was just like,
01:10:07
>> oh my god, >> that's what it was like, you know. It was pretty full on at the time.
01:10:11
>> Um, yeah. I mean, as a young person, I loved it. >> Did you Did you What did you learn, if
01:10:19
anything, about human behavior over that time? >> Did you Did you Did you lose the ability
01:10:23
in a way to see the good in people? >> Uh, yeah. M >> and I remember one of my sergeants
01:10:31
saying to me and when I was down at police college with me being so young, you know, you you have these rose tinted
01:10:38
glasses about what the world looks like and and people and when you come into the
01:10:44
police force, you learn pretty quickly, you know, the reality of life for some people.
01:10:53
Um, you know, you when you'd go out, you'd sit in a certain corner cuz you'd want to see the
01:11:02
whole room, not have your back to the door or, you know, cuz you were dealing with a whole lot of different people
01:11:09
within the job itself. I don't know. I just kept clinging to the fact that I wanted to help people.
01:11:17
That was my whole point of doing. And I was young, you know, full of bravado at different times.
01:11:24
But at the core of it, that's why I joined the police force because I felt like on some level I was helping people,
01:11:32
whether that was people who were victims or whether they were the perpetrators, >> you know, and trying to understand them
01:11:39
a little bit more in the circumstances that they had come from that had led to them doing what they were doing. And
01:11:45
maybe there was some way that you could influence that. You know, I don't I don't know how
01:11:54
whether that was actually possible because the job was so fast and furious, you know, particularly on weekends. But
01:12:03
I look back at those experiences and I just kind of go, man, >> it was some pretty crazy things that
01:12:12
you witnessed. M >> yeah from car crash, deaths, domestics, all of it. And you grew up pretty quickly,
01:12:29
you know. But again, I reflect back and I go, if I was a bit more mature in my own experiences in life, how I
01:12:36
potentially could have done things differently in in the job. I was just I was lucky that I was surrounded by some
01:12:43
really really good people during my time. H >> how do you how did you process some of
01:12:48
the stuff you saw like sudden deaths or like giving someone bad news that a loved one's died or attending like a
01:12:53
like a being a first responder in a traffic accident? Like was it therapy or dark humor with your peers or
01:12:59
>> dark humor? Yeah. Wasn't that I don't even know if therapy was on offer. Maybe
01:13:04
it was. I don't know. >> It would have been probably a sign of weakness back then to
01:13:07
>> maybe. Yeah, maybe. But a lot of it was dark humor and you know because we were living out of each
01:13:14
other's pockets a lot of the time. Um that's where you kind of offloaded a lot
01:13:21
with your work colleagues because they understood what you were going through. Um they understood the incidences.
01:13:30
Some of the things that you didn't necessarily want to talk about what you'd seen. You didn't want to relive
01:13:35
that. Um, you know, there were moments where I definitely woke up in the middle of the
01:13:42
night with certain things in your head. Um, yeah. And certain things now that I I
01:13:49
can I still remember >> as a 19, 20 year old dealing with they don't leave you.
01:13:57
>> Just when like on occasions like this in a podcast when you when I'm asking you
01:14:00
to talk about it or just in general? >> No, just in general. just in general,
01:14:04
you know, >> and I think and I talked about this in my book about, you know,
01:14:11
a young boy, two young boys passing away, one in a car crash and we were there when he took his last breath and then a
01:14:22
mom, you know, seeing her son in the hospital, he'd passed away and hearing that and being in a room and
01:14:31
going, I shouldn't be in here. This is a moment for a mom and her son, her grief.
01:14:38
It's those things more that stay with me. >> And I guess, you know, now with my young boys and I,
01:14:50
you know, you often think about how you want them to grow to be good people but make good decisions as well.
01:15:00
>> Yeah. Well, thank you for your service. Yeah, I think the cops cops do a great job. E,
01:15:08
I'm a big fan actually of all first responders. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah.
01:15:11
>> Yeah, I don't think there's anything in life that can sort of prepare you for
01:15:14
these things necessarily. >> No. >> Yeah, >> I don't think so either.
01:15:18
>> Did you ever were there any ever any light moments where you got you were on
01:15:22
duty as a cop and you got recognized as being the silver fern? >> Yeah, there were plenty of
01:15:26
>> being a famous cop. But the you didn't want to be out on New Year's Eve.
01:15:31
Everybody wanted to have a kiss. Um but you know, there were guys whether I was working in the cells over
01:15:39
at the courts or just in the cells in the police station itself. Hey, miss. Hey, you're that lady that plays for the
01:15:49
Silver Ferns, eh? Yeah, bro. You know, just just moments like that. Yeah. Which was kind of cool cuz it
01:15:58
For that moment, they didn't see the blue uniform. They just saw you as the person.
01:16:04
>> I did have a guy actually. I was I was working I was working in court taking um you know people from the cells
01:16:14
to make their appearance and back down again. Anyway, there was a guy who wasn't in the cells, but he just came in
01:16:19
from the public gallery and he was there for drink driving, I think it was. Anyway, I don't know whether it was that
01:16:25
day or a couple of days later. I was working in the watch house which is just at the reception area
01:16:31
in Hamilton. The guy rings a bell. He comes in and he goes, "Oh, do you remember me?" And I went, "Oh,
01:16:39
yeah. You were in court the other day." He goes, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, I just
01:16:43
noticed that you didn't have any rings on your fingers and I just wondered whether you want to go on a date."
01:16:53
Oh, thanks, bro. But I'm good. There's a few red flags. >> Hey, but I just kind of go good on him.
01:17:01
Like, good on him for actually having the courage to ask. And I mean, you know, [ __ ] happens in our lives. It
01:17:08
doesn't make him a bad person, but I was like, no, I'm good, bro. I've actually
01:17:12
got a partner. >> Oh, that's great. >> Yeah. >> So, the um the Silver Fern stuff. Uh so,
01:17:19
you're in the fence from 1997 to 2002. Um you dispute this, but you were vice
01:17:23
captain in 2001, according to my >> I remember. I can't like seriously.
01:17:27
>> Um, and represented New Zealand at the uh 2002 Comm Games where you won a
01:17:31
silver medal. Where is the silver medal? >> I don't know. >> Well, Jay, give yourself an uppercut.
01:17:38
What do you mean you don't know? >> You're just not. >> Okay, we lost that game in double
01:17:44
overtime to Australia. And so whilst I'm incredibly proud to have had that experience of being at a Commonwealth
01:17:52
Games and experiencing a final, we lost. >> M. >> So I don't know where that silver medal
01:17:59
is. My husband will pull it out every now and again and show our sons who look at it and kind of go, "That's whats."
01:18:05
But I I actually don't know. He would have put it away somewhere. >> So when you see that silver medal now,
01:18:11
it still stings that it's not a gold. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Wow.
01:18:18
Yeah. In the forward to your book, um yeah, there's a line from Stacy Morrison
01:18:24
where she says something like um you even treat like vacuuming the house is an Olympic sport. I I think um I can see
01:18:31
that now like your disdain at a having a come silver medal speaks volumes about your competitiveness.
01:18:37
>> Well, yes. And yes, >> it does. >> Yes. In that moment, I don't feel like
01:18:42
I'm >> I'm not saying it's a negative either. I think that we need more of this.
01:18:48
>> Yeah. In in those moments, yes. When I have moments with my sons, I reckon I'm still competitive cuz I want
01:18:56
I want to, you know, put them in their place. Whether we're playing touch, doing a
01:19:02
sprint race, whatever it is, wrestling. We were on the trampoline the other night wrestling.
01:19:09
Although my son did get me into a choker hold and it was a it was a pretty good one.
01:19:17
Anyway, I said to >> how are they? Nine. >> Nine. I said to him, "Why didn't you
01:19:20
like go for it?" He's going, "Mama, I didn't want to do that."
01:19:24
>> Oh, really? You're asking why I didn't finish you off. >> He said, "I don't didn't want to didn't
01:19:31
want to hurt you, Mom." I said, "You're all right, son. It's all good."
01:19:35
Anyway, >> I've been watching too much Dan Hook from the UFC. >> I don't I want to put them in their
01:19:41
place. But outside of that, in terms of the competitiveness, I don't think I
01:19:45
don't I don't It's not a thing for me anymore. >> I had my time and I loved it and I'm
01:19:52
quite happy to kind of leave all of that >> in the past. >> I don't know you say that, but it's I
01:19:58
think it's probably there like in in other aspects like you're doing full
01:20:01
immersion, it's the toughest thing ever. You're not going to give up. I think
01:20:04
that's competitiveness to a degree as well, isn't it? >> Well, is it? I think it's
01:20:08
>> just wanting to wanting to be the best at whatever you're doing. For me, that's
01:20:12
not about competing with anybody else. That's about me pushing boundaries >> for myself.
01:20:19
>> Um, and I've kind of had this attitude of if you don't give things a go, how do
01:20:30
you know what you're good at? So, I'm going to give it a go. And if I'm [ __ ] okay, that's cool. I know. But
01:20:39
if I'm good at it, then, oh, what's the potential in that? Or, okay, I've done
01:20:44
it. It was okay. I was good at it, but not really something that I want to continue doing. But if I don't give
01:20:49
those experiences a go, how do I know? >> Yeah. I heard a line on a um do you know
01:20:54
Steven Bartlett? He's got a podcast called Diary of a CEO. I I heard a line >> just listening to him on the way in
01:20:59
actually. Yeah. >> Really? I had a line that he had on a podcast a couple of weeks ago and I
01:21:02
thought that's really good. And he's he was like the entry level for anything is
01:21:05
embarrassment. What he meant is that >> 100% >> no one starts good at anything. So like
01:21:10
to do something you're going to you're going to have to suck and be embarrassed
01:21:13
for a few months >> and get over yourself right in order to be and I think that's one of the biggest
01:21:17
barriers for us as well is going what if I suck at it you know what if I get humiliated and you see that with kids
01:21:24
all the time and I see that with my sons too you know go and go and give it a go.
01:21:29
Oh, I don't want to give it a go. Why? Because there's a fear of embarrassment
01:21:34
what they'll look like in front of their peers. Um, you know, and so they don't
01:21:39
they stop themselves from doing it. >> I mean, adults are the same as well.
01:21:44
>> I think it's in a lot of ways you get worse as an adult. >> Yeah.
01:21:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. True story. >> But I think maybe I put that aside a long time ago.
01:21:53
>> Yes. >> And went, "Oh, well, I'm going to suck at it, >> but I could be really good at it, too.
01:22:00
to get through the suck. >> I just Yeah, I have to and if it's something worth pursuing, then I can
01:22:05
continue doing that. But sitting on the sidelines and, you know, sitting there thinking, maybe I could, maybe I I don't
01:22:12
know what if I did give it a go. >> I mean, what's the worst that can happen? You're [ __ ] at it.
01:22:18
>> And what? >> It's a great attitude. And And I think as you get older, you realize no, no
01:22:24
one's actually paying that much attention to you. Everyone's so selfconcious.
01:22:27
>> Totally. Everybody's worried about their own [ __ ] and what they look like and
01:22:31
what's going on in their lives actually >> and then you know if they've got the
01:22:36
energy to be able to comment about you then there's some dissatisfaction going
01:22:42
on for themselves you know um I think it's also on um diary of a CEO where they talk about you know
01:22:52
wanting more in life and you know I would love that flash car and then when you get the flash car and you're driving
01:22:58
in it, nobody's thinking about you driving that flash car. They're actually
01:23:02
thinking about what that look like in that flash car. So, you know, you strive for all these things about how people
01:23:07
will think about you. Actually, they don't give a [ __ ] No, >> people are, you know, getting on with
01:23:12
their own lives. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, do you remember getting the call up
01:23:18
about getting in the silver offense? How did how did it happen back then? Was it
01:23:21
a phone call? Was it a radio announcement? >> No, no, it was a phone call back in
01:23:24
those days. >> Who was the coach then? Was that Yvon >> Willer? Elvon was the coach that was the
01:23:28
tour up to the UK. Um, yeah, I do remember her calling. I don't I just seriously
01:23:37
you kind of go numb both ways actually cuz I've had two or three phone calls of
01:23:41
being told you're not going as well as a couple of good phone calls. And both
01:23:47
ways you can't remember anything past congratulations or I'm really sorry. Everything's a blur
01:23:56
from that point on. Obviously, one is, you know, >> elation and devastation. Were you sort
01:24:01
of on the frame? Like, had you had a good domestic season? Were you sort of expecting to make the silver ferns?
01:24:06
>> Um, I don't know. I didn't think that I would make it that that particular tour.
01:24:12
It was my very first Yeah, it was the first time I'd actually been called into
01:24:15
the silver squad. Um, there are other players in there that I thought would go before me, so it was a
01:24:24
real shock. Um, yeah, when I did get the call up and I'd never been on a plane beyond
01:24:31
Australia, so going up to the UK was a pretty big deal. >> Yeah. >> Wow, that's so cool.
01:24:38
>> Um, yeah. You talked about the flip side of um that call, getting the call saying
01:24:42
you're not wanted. Um, so in 2003 uh you were dumped. I believe you stayed inside
01:24:46
for like 3 days afterwards embarrassed or ashamed. Yeah, that was that was the first time I got uh the
01:24:54
phone call that I wasn't I can't even remember what the tour was. We'd come
01:24:59
back we'd come back from the UK. Maybe it was the next one. Come back from the
01:25:02
UK. There was another one. And then there was this was the one a little bit later on in the year. Anyway, um yeah,
01:25:11
I was just embarrassed. I thought I was a loser. I thought everybody else would think I was a loser.
01:25:20
um you know cuz goes out to the papers um and I stayed home for a few days didn't answer phone calls or texts or
01:25:31
anything like that you know which I reflect on it now and I just kind of go how you this is you talk
01:25:41
about this imposter syndrome and confidence and all of those sorts of things and you
01:25:46
you kind of go it was one or two people's opinions about your performance, >> but because the consequences are so big
01:25:58
and because your identity for me at that point had then become wrapped up in me being a silver fern and that's why
01:26:04
people were interested in me >> because I was playing for New Zealand and so you know
01:26:12
>> and then to have all of that gone and one phone call all of it gone was at the
01:26:18
time devastating and it was family in the end that pulled me out of it, you know,
01:26:25
>> and the realization that actually I'm a good person. It is one or two people's
01:26:30
opinions of where I'm at. And you have a choice at that point in time whether you're actually going to get up
01:26:40
and quit or get up and say, "Okay, so how can I be better?" And I think about that time and how that
01:26:50
actually again had a huge impact on things that have happened over my life since then
01:26:57
and how I respond to disappointment. doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, but
01:27:02
it's what I do about it that matters most. >> How I pick myself back up might take me
01:27:07
a little bit longer depending upon what it is, you know, or that that that feeling might sit with me for a little
01:27:14
while, but actually what I come back to is I'm a good person. There's so much more to do in life.
01:27:23
There's so much more to achieve. And again, I guess it's just that whole
01:27:32
learning through that process about who you are, how you cope with different things and the strategies that you learn
01:27:39
along the way to be able to pick yourself up and carry on. >> Not easy at all. And some things have a
01:27:46
a bigger impact than others. But I look back on those and go, I mean, that I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have
01:27:53
had that experience. So I understand how my brain works and how I can, you know,
01:27:57
move through that. >> But I'm just really grateful for family as well.
01:28:04
>> Yeah. >> You know, keeping you grounded and and lifting you up when you need it.
01:28:11
>> Still sounds like you handled it better than honey smiler. I had her on the
01:28:14
podcast and when she missed um morning, she got a phone call in the morning saying she missed selection for I think
01:28:19
it was one of the Olympic squads and she she went and got two bottles of port. So I think you did better than honey.
01:28:26
>> Well, I'm sure there was a little bit of drinking that went on in amongst all of
01:28:30
that, but you know. >> Yeah. Well, 99% of the population will won't be able to relate to what you're
01:28:34
talking about. Does it feel like you're disappointed obviously because you're
01:28:37
not wanted in the team, which okay, anyone that plays a team sport is going to go through that, but does it feel
01:28:41
like it's a sort of public humiliation thing as well? Like, oh, everyone's
01:28:45
talking about >> Totally. And that's and and again, you know, we've just finished having this
01:28:49
conversation about most people don't care cuz they're they're wrapped up in
01:28:52
their own lives, right? >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> And if only I had had that mentality or
01:28:58
understanding at that time, then that spiral >> I don't think would have been as low
01:29:07
because for me it was about the headlines. It was about, you know, oh my god, everybody, everybody in New Zealand
01:29:13
knows now that I'm no longer a silver fern, that I've been dropped, that I'm
01:29:17
not good enough, you know, and the reality is is people read and go, "Oh, okay." And move on, they don't even
01:29:24
actually know who you are. >> But because it was all consuming and it was such a huge part of my life and my
01:29:32
identity, who I was as a person, the impact was huge. M >> but again, you know, the reality is most
01:29:40
people don't give a [ __ ] They've just moved on. Go, okay. >> Well, yeah. To to time stamp this
01:29:46
conversation, at the time we're recording it, um it's the week that Scott Razer Robertson lost his job as
01:29:52
all black coach. For him, it must feel like Yeah. And a lot of people are talking about it, don't get me wrong,
01:29:57
but it's like a a five-minute conversation with a mate, and then you move on with your life and forget about
01:30:01
it. >> Yeah. You know, but for him, that was his livelihood. Yeah. >> And again, I don't I don't know Razer
01:30:09
and I don't know all of the circumstances that led to where things are at. My honest belief though is that
01:30:16
he'll be a way better coach for it. And again, it's one of those things you go,
01:30:21
"Okay, shut up. It's pretty tough in the moment, >> but hey, you know what he's going to
01:30:27
learn from this experience." >> Yeah. He's still a young man. Like
01:30:33
there's another 20 25 years of his coaching career left. There's no reason
01:30:36
why he can't come back at some point to coach the All Blacks. Didn't work this
01:30:41
time, but there's still a lot of coaching to be done if that's what he wants to continue doing.
01:30:46
>> Actually, that's a good point. Same sort of thing happened to the man they call
01:30:49
the professor, Sue Wayne Smith. Remember, he coached the All Blacks. They had a bad patch.
01:30:54
>> Look at him now. >> Yeah. >> You know, he's the man. >> He's the king.
01:30:57
>> He's the man. But, you know, he would have there was so many things that he
01:31:00
would have learned during his time. Um, >> and again, if that's the pathway that
01:31:06
you want to go down, there's so many opportunities, you know, to head overseas, come back, whatever.
01:31:12
>> Um, >> it's not it doesn't define you. >> No, it can feel it can feel like it does
01:31:16
and it can feel crushing at the time >> in the moment. Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:31:19
>> Um, yeah, you were teammates with um Dame Nolles. >> Yeah. >> Your your careers over overlapped. Yeah.
01:31:24
Yeah. Speaking similar sort of thing that I suppose she went through last year. Yeah.
01:31:27
>> Um, yeah. What was she like as a player? >> Uh, >> was she ferocious?
01:31:34
demanding. >> Um, and >> that's coming from you. I'd imagine
01:31:37
you're quite demanding as well. >> Yeah, demanding. Um, precise, kind though.
01:31:54
Um, and I say all of those things because when we're on the court, there was an
01:32:00
expectation about um, how you played, how we all played together, but there was always a
01:32:10
kindness in what she was doing. Um, that it was to be better. Um, I she also coached me
01:32:24
And I didn't like her because she benched me. This is ego talking, right? Because she benched me.
01:32:40
So I felt like I was kind of at the top of my game. Nolles had come in to be coach. Um I think it was for the magic
01:32:50
back in the early days. I think it was magic or it was white Cuttle. Can't remember. And we were in a game. I can't
01:32:56
I don't think we were doing that well. And she took me off. And seriously, I
01:32:59
said I was just in my head. I was going, "What does she think she's doing? She
01:33:05
has no idea what she's doing." All of these things. She didn't do it to me once. She did it
01:33:10
to me a couple of times. So, I didn't I didn't think much of her as a coach at that time, you know. And
01:33:18
now I reflect back and go 100% she did the right thing. I was actually the problem on the court. My ego was bigger
01:33:27
um than anything else and expecting players to play to me as opposed to the other way around. And so she saw that
01:33:34
straight away, called it and benched me, you know. And I think about that with Nolles now. And she knows what she
01:33:40
wants. She has high expectations. and if you can't do what she needs you to do, then somebody else will.
01:33:49
>> M >> she's always been like that. Um but again, there's a kindness to her as well
01:33:56
because it's about wanting to get the best out of you and what she knows you're capable of, but obviously what's
01:34:04
best for the team ultimately as well. >> Yeah, >> that's a great spiel. I I think if she
01:34:11
heard that she Yeah. I mean, she was she's not going to be like, "Oh, that's
01:34:14
that's hurtful." That's I I think Yeah. They're very kind words.
01:34:18
>> Fair. Firm, but fair. >> Yeah. And they're true. >> They're true of her. I had the privilege
01:34:22
of playing alongside her, not only at the Silver Fiends level. I do remember when both her and I were benched for the
01:34:29
fans as well. Oh dear. We were in Jamaica together. Anyway, we had some, you know, we had some cool times
01:34:37
together. And then we I was fortunate enough to play with her at uh Wato as well. We
01:34:43
>> won one or two nationals together playing side by side. and to have her
01:34:51
I you know when you're playing in one uh region and teams for over a decade you
01:34:58
get into a pattern and she came in and disrupted that pattern >> and came in with a different uh way of
01:35:06
thinking and approaching the game. >> Yeah. And so I was grateful to have that
01:35:12
experience with her as well. when her ship was going down in 2025, you would have still been on breakfast. Did you
01:35:18
have any like hot takes or firm opinions on that or >> I didn't um I didn't make much contact
01:35:22
at all with Niles. Just all I would do was connect in and just say hope everything's okay
01:35:28
because I'm fully aware that there as a player and having coached as well that there's always two sides to
01:35:36
everything. >> I didn't know I didn't know the full story and I didn't want to know the full
01:35:40
story. All I knew was that there were issues going on. Um, and for me it was about doing what was right for the
01:35:46
Silver Ferns and, you know, protecting that brand as well. >> So, no, I didn't have I didn't have any
01:35:53
hot takes on it. I understand that as a player sometimes you don't like >> how a coach calls things, you know, and
01:35:59
I've just talked about that, but also as a coach, you are wanting the best that
01:36:04
you can from your players >> and there's expectations on you as well. There was um a thing I I I completely
01:36:13
missed this but um googling you uh this came up in 2018 after the Silver Ferns failed to get a medal at the
01:36:18
Commonwealth Games. You asked Katrina Rory if the team had pride in the black dress. You got criticized for that as
01:36:23
being too harsh. >> Was it too harsh? >> Was it too harsh? >> I mean I I when I read it out loud it
01:36:33
doesn't sound too harsh. >> No. For me, for me it was about giving an opportunity. I mean, we're we're good
01:36:42
mates, you know. Um, for me it was about giving an opportunity to explain to everybody to actually express, hell yes,
01:36:49
there's still pride in the stress. It's not through a lack of trying. Things just aren't working for us for
01:36:58
whatever reason. And so me asking that question of her was I don't think out of line of as a former
01:37:09
silver fern um having worn that black dress and understanding you know you give everything and it
01:37:19
means everything to be there and so giving her an opportunity to actually explain what was happening with
01:37:27
them as a Oh yeah, I got hammered for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Did that surprise you? You
01:37:35
ever get used to that the backlash? >> Um I think I did that time because I
01:37:39
remember cuz we walked back up the stairs together, me, Katrina, uh and the coach Janine at the time. And we walked
01:37:46
back walked back up the stairs where the rest of the team was, you know, and that was kind of it. And then I
01:37:54
walked into where we were working out of. um as a sports team and it was later on and I don't know
01:38:02
whether it was that afternoon or the next morning or whatever it is and my boss came up to me and he goes, "God,
01:38:06
you've started a [ __ ] storm, haven't you?" And I went, "What?"
01:38:10
You know, and then of course there it was and the headlines and everything and I was kind of like, "I don't know. I
01:38:14
don't get it." you know, and I also kind of go in the moment that seemed like the most appropriate
01:38:28
question for me to ask in that moment. And so, I didn't have a problem with it.
01:38:33
And you know, this is always the thing when you put yourself out there in public, everybody's going to have an
01:38:38
opinion about you. >> That's cool. >> Yeah. Also, it was a question, not an
01:38:45
accusation, per se. But >> as we talked about before with you, Gray here on TV, like the worst thing than
01:38:52
people responding is people not responding at all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.
01:38:55
>> I guess. >> Yeah. >> So, the media career, >> I was trying to pinpoint this. When did
01:39:01
it start with um with the uh the singing segment on our radio show? >> God.
01:39:06
>> Was that the beginning of your media career? >> You won. Eh, it was like an
01:39:11
>> No, I didn't. >> No. So, this was some American Idol that when American Idol had just started, it
01:39:16
was like season two or season 3 or something. It was a big deal, early 2000s. Um, it was like some singing
01:39:22
contest and the prize was to win a a trip to the States for the final. >> To the States for the final
01:39:26
>> and you entered it and you were like fresh out of the Silver Ferns. So, we
01:39:29
were like, "Oh, we've got like a celebrity New Zealand sports star that
01:39:32
wants to take part in this competition." Was that the beginning of your your
01:39:36
media career sort of? >> Well, I don't know. I don't know whether I'd say that. It was uh it was a time
01:39:42
and it was a moment dog. Hey, you know, and I I think back to that and I kind of
01:39:48
go I was terrible like but I loved every moment of it cuz I think it went over a couple of weeks and
01:39:58
you got us down to two and then we had to sing live on the show. Uh and I still remember the song too,
01:40:05
Donna Summer, Last Dance. And then I had to hit the high note at the end and I was terrible. It was terrible. But I
01:40:13
also go, you know, when you put yourself out there, you do open yourself up to whatever it is, the criticism, people
01:40:20
going, you know, good on you, all of that. And I have no regrets about doing that
01:40:28
because I almost got to go to the American Idol final. And in that time, I just loved the show.
01:40:36
>> It was massive. >> Seriously, it was Yeah. Anyway, it Yeah, it was a moment.
01:40:42
>> It was a moment. >> No. So, at that point, did you have media aspirations?
01:40:48
>> I don't know. >> What were you What were you doing at that point? It would have been early 20.
01:40:51
So, you were on Celebrity Treasure Island in 2005. >> Oh my god. Yes. >> Why are you face palming?
01:40:57
>> So, this is one um this is one where um Gre Robson won. >> Yes. >> Uh and Matthew Ridge and Nikki Watson
01:41:04
were on there as a couple. Yeah, >> Matthew um said Nikki Watson was his one
01:41:08
luxury item. >> Of course he did. >> But did you enjoy the Treasure Island
01:41:14
experience? >> I I did not. I had spoken to Stacy Morrison had done it the year before. And I said to you
01:41:21
know what what's it like? And she goes, "Oh, be right up your alley. It's really
01:41:26
physical. You've got to, you know, get around the island and do all of these
01:41:29
things." I said, "Oh yeah, okay. I'm up for that." Well, we did none of those
01:41:33
things on our own. Uh, we did crab racing, I think was one of them. Had to put a tent up. I can't. Anyway, so
01:41:41
everything I thought it was going to be, it was a complete opposite. >> But again, it was a very cool
01:41:47
experience. I mean, I got to hang out with people I would wouldn't ordinarily
01:41:52
hang out with. >> Who else was on that series? Uh, so we had Mark Nikki Louise Wallace,
01:42:02
uh, Suzanne Paul >> and actually I got to know Suzanne uh, really well and I her and Nikki
01:42:12
>> and I enjoyed my time with them actually. Um, >> yeah, Suzanne Paul was great. Uh,
01:42:17
>> it's a long time ago. 20 20 21 years this year. >> Shoot. Was it
01:42:22
>> crazy? 2005. >> Michael Laws, was he on our one? I can't I can't remember if it was him. Anyway,
01:42:29
>> anyway, I was there for 5 days and Jason um Gun and I got voted off at the same
01:42:36
time. >> Yeah. >> God, what a cast. >> I do remember >> there's some good names there.
01:42:40
>> Yeah, I know. I do remember the uh club sandwich when I got back to the hotel
01:42:45
though. Club sandwich and fries. And I was thought I was hungry and I got through half of the sandwich and that
01:42:52
was it. >> Oh, your stomach had shrunk or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we we only had I think
01:42:59
we caught some fish and we got some rice and that was it. Yeah. >> So, your first radio job classic hits in
01:43:07
Hamilton with um the white legend Ronnie. >> Ronnie Phillips. Yep. Um, one thing I've
01:43:13
noticed from my time, my time in being radio in radio buildings is, um, when sports people come along, um, whether
01:43:19
it's like Monty Betham or Jeff Wilson or yourself, you seem to approach it with
01:43:24
like a different mentality like you, I don't know, like a a more professionalism or something or you seem
01:43:31
to work out what steps you need to take to be the best you can be and do them. Whereas most radio people that aren't
01:43:37
from a sporting background don't sort of approach it that way. Just an interesting thing I've noticed. Um, was
01:43:42
it the same with you? So, you start doing radio, regional radio. >> Yeah. >> And you have aspirations to
01:43:49
>> No, no aspirations. >> Where did you see it going? >> I don't know. I was just giving it a go.
01:43:53
Again, it was going back to that mentality of, oh, well, if I don't know, you know, give it a go. I could be good
01:43:58
at it, could be [ __ ] at it. I don't know. Um, it was something that came out of the blue. I
01:44:08
was actually taken leave from the police force because I was trying to I was studying
01:44:16
still at that time but also my aspiration was to go to the World Cup which I missed out on. But again for me
01:44:24
I'm going to throw everything into it. I'm going to put my job on hold and I'm
01:44:28
going to give it everything I've got. So I have no excuses. Um, I can't say I was too busy at work,
01:44:37
you know, or things were too full on. I actually gave myself the best possible chance of making it, and I didn't.
01:44:43
But in between that time came the opportunity to do radio. And again, I went, "Oh, well, been in the police
01:44:51
force 9 years, done that. It's cool career. I'm going to give this a go." And jumped
01:44:59
into it again. bloody hard cuz I had no idea what I was doing. Um, but didn't didn't have any aspirations
01:45:10
of, you know, becoming nationwide or >> I was just enjoying what I was doing and
01:45:18
the opportunity to work alongside Ronnie to learn something new to push myself um into doing something that I yeah
01:45:29
again that I had no experience in. But just wanting to prove to myself whether I could do it.
01:45:35
>> Well, that was probably it. That I could do it. >> Yeah. >> Shouldn't you could long career?
01:45:41
>> 20. Yeah. How many years all up? How many years were you at TV and Z? >> Uh just over just under 20.
01:45:47
>> Incredible. >> Yeah. Or 20. Yeah. >> If someone said when you the first day
01:45:51
you walked into that building that you'd be leaving there for the last time 20
01:45:54
years later, would could you have imagined it? >> No. because I wouldn't have thought that
01:46:00
far ahead. >> Mhm. >> Um yeah, you know, and I think again I man, I've just had the most amazing career.
01:46:13
Seriously, when I when I look at >> the things that I've been able to do
01:46:17
within that 20 years of being at TBN Zed, I just kind of go, >> you know, I've had a good life.
01:46:23
>> I've had a good professional life. Um, but I still believe that the best is yet
01:46:30
to come. >> Mhm. >> Whatever that looks like. >> I feel the same way. It's like um you
01:46:40
got some friends similar age to us that are sort of like winding down and I'm
01:46:43
like, "No, no, no. We we're just into the second half. >> Just beginning, baby." And I think a lot
01:46:50
of that has to do with the fact that we care less about expectations and what other people think. And actually what's
01:46:58
driving us now is >> what we want to do. >> Um there is less fear on a level about
01:47:12
where this will eventually end up. It's kind of like this is where I'm at and I
01:47:17
want to give this a go. Um, yep, we still have those pressures of, you know, being able to pay for the bills and all
01:47:25
of those sorts of things, but actually letting go of of expectations of others, >> you know, I think is a huge thing as you
01:47:32
get older. >> Yeah. And I think I don't know, it's like a a switch. Um, there's a switch
01:47:37
that goes off when you turn 50 and you realize, okay, time's limited. I I can't [ __ ] around with this.
01:47:43
Totally. If I'm going to do this, it's now or never. >> Yeah. And I think that's what happened
01:47:46
to me, too. At 50, I just went, you know what? >> Life's too short, man. It's one of those
01:47:51
sayings, but I think it >> it really does push you into a space of if I'm not going to do it now, when am I
01:47:57
going to do it? Like, >> absolutely. >> People, you know, I don't know about
01:48:01
you, but we've had a few people who have passed away around us >> who've only been young.
01:48:08
>> And so, in some way, that kind of kicks you in the ass as well, >> you know. yet crystallizes things. Yeah.
01:48:14
You realize, you know, >> time is limited. >> Yeah. >> Um, so for anyone that watched
01:48:20
breakfast, like it looks like a relatively easy job, right? Just sitting sitting down shooting the [ __ ] for a
01:48:26
couple of hours a day. But what's the reality though? Cuz you did that job for
01:48:29
6 years. >> Six years. >> Six years. So you're there at 3 did you
01:48:32
say 3:30 a.m. before? >> 3:30 in the morning. Um, you know, earlier on I was probably
01:48:39
there before 3:00. And I mean the reality is that it's a split shift, right? So you
01:48:52
have the early morning start and then you're on air for 3 hours which requires
01:48:58
so much energy of you. you're doing six or seven interviews during that time
01:49:03
reacting to breaking news uh and trying to keep the energy up because you know people turn the TV on they want to see
01:49:10
what's happening in the day but they also they want to be informed but they also want to be uplifted before they
01:49:15
actually have to walk out of the house and get on with their own day and then after that where there's a
01:49:20
meeting go over what the show looked like and then what the show is going to look like tomorrow cuz it's a machine
01:49:25
right Monday to Friday then home and then the reality is I'm on my computer or on my phone
01:49:36
from the time I leave physically leave the building until later that night. So, there are always
01:49:44
things going on. We've got an interview coming up. We've got a pre-record coming
01:49:47
up. Can you do this? Can you do that? Got questions about, you know, who who could this is the story we've got. Have
01:49:54
you got any ideas about who we could potentially interview? So, you're constantly, whether it's phone calls or
01:50:00
emails, messages back and forth to your producing team. And then there's a meeting that happens in the afternoon
01:50:06
about where the show's at, what holes that still need to be filled for the next day. And then there's preparation.
01:50:13
Once you've locked everything in, then you've got to prep for those five or six
01:50:16
interviews that you've got coming up the next day. That's six days a week. That's not five.
01:50:23
So, you leave that building at 10:00 on a Friday. Sunday morning, you're back in
01:50:28
it again because you know that Monday again the cycle starts again. So the only real
01:50:37
clear day that you had was a Saturday. >> Friday Friday Fridays you must be a
01:50:41
wreck as well. Knock off on Friday morning. So you don't have any more prep but you just be exhausted.
01:50:46
>> Totally. And it was just and that's the I mean that's the thing about working
01:50:52
that role for six years is you get to interview some amazing people um and again get to be part of moments in our
01:51:04
history, right? You have the opportunity to inform people about things that are going on.
01:51:14
But the flip side of that is that you're exhausted, >> disconnected, you know, a lot of the
01:51:22
time from other things in your life, whether that's family, um, friends, and it's trying to find, and I don't
01:51:34
think you ever find a balance on it, but it's trying to figure out how you actually cope with all of that, whilst
01:51:40
also trying to have a life outside of that. I think I started to get it in the last
01:51:45
year that I was working. But again, maybe that's too because I was already had a foot out the door.
01:51:53
>> Yeah. Made the mind up. >> Yeah. But again, for me, my mentality when I went into it was I'm here doing
01:52:00
the best that I can and so I'm not going to half ass it. >> You know, you go in going right the prep
01:52:06
that I need to do. Actually, this is going to take me an hour and a half to do this.
01:52:12
The only issue with that is that actually came at a cost. And that cost was >> being available to your family. I'm in
01:52:24
the same room as you, but I'm not even I'm not even here. My my brain is over
01:52:29
here. Mama, can I have something? What do you need? Like I'm right in the middle of something. What do you need?
01:52:35
And then you see them go, "Oh, no. It's okay." You know, and that's hard because
01:52:39
you want to reach out and go, I'm sorry. But at the same time, you go, "This is
01:52:44
still going to take me 2 hours to get through this, and I'm the one that has
01:52:47
to turn up tomorrow morning and be across, you know, those different interviews that you're doing." So, it
01:52:53
takes a toll. >> It's a big cost, isn't it? >> It's a huge cost.
01:52:58
>> Yeah. That's an aspect that I suppose viewers wouldn't think of. They'll be
01:53:01
like, "Oh, she's got producers that write the question." But you need to be
01:53:04
all over the entire story. Like, you can't just have five questions that you
01:53:07
ask Christopher Luxon or whoever. You need to know >> no that's right >> the backstory as well
01:53:12
>> but also yes there are questions but you will always look at them and go okay
01:53:20
so how would I help what do I want to know what do what do others want to know like yes that's a basis for starting to
01:53:27
look at an interview but actually you need to flesh that out so it's not as simple as having your questions there
01:53:33
that a producer has kind of pulled out for you to look at you again your own curiosity going back and like you say
01:53:41
having a look at you know uh other articles or doing your own research to dig a little bit deeper into that
01:53:49
interview and that that takes a huge amount of time and energy to be able to do that
01:53:59
but again the way that I work you know that's what you do because you don't
01:54:04
want to turn up half ass the next day and go actually I got no idea >> Mhm. I've got no idea because that's how
01:54:09
it comes across too. The audience knows that >> when they're watching you. So
01:54:15
>> you're the one that's on screen, too. So you're the one that will look like an
01:54:18
idiot. >> Totally. >> But you know, also the reality is you can't know everything about everything,
01:54:23
>> you know, and that's the skill is being able to do an interview, but pull that
01:54:26
information out of that person. They're the they're the expert. They're here to
01:54:30
talk about the topic. It's about trying to figure out how do you actually extract that information that is in them
01:54:37
>> so that it's useful for the audience >> and that you know that takes skill and
01:54:41
that takes time and understanding and >> you spent time with um John Campbell
01:54:48
who's one of the goats of New Zealand broadcasting. Um what did you learn from
01:54:52
him either from him giving you broadcasting lessons or from just observing how he worked? Um, I think the
01:54:59
biggest thing that I got from John was it's okay to be you. And I think that was one of the biggest
01:55:08
things in terms of confidence that he was able to impart on me. You know, initially you could be
01:55:14
intimidated >> by that, but I guess for me it was kind of like he is what he is and
01:55:26
has a reputation and experience and all of those things, >> but that's not me. But what I have
01:55:34
>> is different, too. And it's okay to bring that to the screen. And I think
01:55:40
that was one of the biggest things that he gave me was the confidence just to be
01:55:43
able to do that >> because you know there was certain things that he could do better than me.
01:55:47
There was certain things that I could do. I wouldn't say better but that I that was my lane and I learned that that
01:55:55
was okay and having the confidence to be able to do that. >> Although al and also he's not he's not
01:56:03
fully himself on screen is he? I've never met someone that swears so much. >> This is true. Have you heard? He's one
01:56:09
of the most prolific swearers you'll ever come across. When you f when you first meet him off the air and you hear
01:56:14
him swear, it seems quite shocking. It's like, oh wow, John Campbell just said,
01:56:20
"Fuck me." >> Yeah. And it happens all the time, too. Like in between making sure, okay, we're
01:56:26
on now. Ready? Are you good now? Okay. Yeah. >> Any any um terrible bloopers or fauxars
01:56:34
or mistakes? >> Probably. I don't know. Nothing that springs to mind. Nothing that happened
01:56:40
that you got in trouble for or that end up going viral on Tik Tok or YouTube? >> I don't know. I don't think so.
01:56:49
>> Well, I guess not. >> I don't have Tik Tok and I don't watch
01:56:53
YouTube. >> Probably a good thing. >> Yeah. So, last year was a big year for
01:56:58
you. So, it was um yeah, your final year on on Breakfast after that amazing career at TVZ. And also um your book
01:57:04
came out full circle. Um the dedication at the beginning to anyone who has ever felt unworthy
01:57:10
>> or still on the journey to finding themselves >> still true now. >> Yeah.
01:57:16
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. It surprised me when I read that because um I don't know just from an
01:57:23
outsers's perspective. I'll see a glimpse of you on the the court with the
01:57:26
silver ferns or glimpse on whatever TV show it is that you happen to be on and you think you know you got it all
01:57:30
figured out. So, the book was really refreshing in a way to realize, oh, cool. She's she's fig
01:57:37
figuring [ __ ] out and dealing with [ __ ] like the rest of us. Uh and you know
01:57:41
throughout throughout a lot of my career whether that was in sport uh as a player, as a
01:57:51
coach, whether that was within the media itself um you know that whole thing around
01:57:59
imposttor syndrome and whether you're good enough to be sitting sitting in certain spaces or being part
01:58:07
of certain groups etc. I think that's something that I've dealt with and a lot of people do. We just
01:58:13
don't talk about it. But that's been a huge part of my journey and trying to figure that stuff
01:58:21
out. How do I cope? Um I feel like I'm coping, but I'm not actually coping. Um
01:58:30
and so for me it was really important in my book to be authentically me. And in terms of you know growing up my
01:58:43
experiences and my hope is that by me telling my story others see themselves in that story and
01:58:53
don't feel well that they go ah actually somebody else feels like that too. That's how I feel. And that actually
01:59:02
we're all just trying to figure [ __ ] out. And we have moments of clarity in our
01:59:08
lives. And we have different times where everything seems okay. And then we have
01:59:13
moments where, you know, there's a little bit of confusion. We don't know
01:59:16
what's coming next. There's that fear. There's that anxiety. And that's okay.
01:59:23
>> And that's okay. >> Yeah. It's such a vulnerable book. There's like so much so much
01:59:28
vulnerability in there. Is is there anything that was ultimately left out that you're like uh on the fence about?
01:59:33
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And maybe that's another book. >> Yeah. >> Um
01:59:37
>> just not ready yet. >> Not ready. But also for me when I was writing that book my sons
01:59:48
were 8 n and I kind of go if there's things that I want to express and a book for the world to know.
01:59:58
>> I want my sons to know first >> if it is all appropriate to be able to
02:00:05
put that all into a book. And that was the measure for me. And so, yeah, maybe one day there'll be
02:00:13
other things, there'll be another book, but that won't happen until I've had
02:00:19
>> conversations with my sons when at the appropriate age. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
02:00:24
>> When you um I'm probably projecting here, but when you got that first
02:00:28
finished copy back from the publishers, >> Yeah. >> you rip open that bag, um did you feel
02:00:33
sick? Like there's so much so much oversharing in there in in the best possible way. But were you like, "Oh my
02:00:40
god, what have I done?" >> No. >> Did you have that moment or No,
02:00:43
>> no. No, not at all. When I opened When I opened it up, my husband was with me.
02:00:52
I don't know. I just I was proud. >> Cool. >> Because it was something I never thought
02:00:58
that I would do. something that I probably had never backed myself to be able to do.
02:01:07
And that when I was asked to write a book years beforehand, I went, who wants to
02:01:16
hear about me? Who wants to read a my story? Who wants to, you know? And so for for me, it was a symbol of
02:01:27
actually this isn't about anybody else. This is about me having the courage to
02:01:34
tell my story. And it didn't matter whether anybody would read it or not. It
02:01:42
was about me actually going, "This is something I want to do." I mean, of
02:01:47
course, the publishers want you to sell a few of the books, right? Um, >> at least want to make that that that
02:01:54
minimal advance. >> That's right. >> But for me, that's what it was. It was
02:01:58
just a moment to reflect and go and go you. Hey, this little girl from Pville with a book. Who
02:02:06
knew? >> Well, you you didn't care if people read it or not, but people definitely did
02:02:09
read it. Were you Yeah. What was the reaction like in general? Must have been overwhelmingly positive, right?
02:02:15
>> Yeah. I mean, I haven't had any negative back from it. Um, and again, I think for
02:02:21
a lot of people it was about they could see themselves in different parts of my journey. Whether that was
02:02:28
reclaiming uh my language, whether that was my honesty about being a first-time mom and
02:02:36
an older mom, whether that was about grief, you know, all of those stories, somebody's got their own story. And so,
02:02:43
I think for those who read it, there was a connection in some way. And I think that's what people resonated with and
02:02:50
appreciated. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. We haven't even talked about Yeah. you being an older mom or or
02:02:55
your meet cute with Dean, your husband. I feel like this is almost mythical now.
02:02:58
Like people can Google it. But yeah, you you guys you met at like 40 at a bar and
02:03:03
you were married within a It was like true love at first sight. Yeah. >> You're married with like within a year.
02:03:08
>> Yeah. We were engaged within 10 days. I think it was >> unreal. >> With a bread tie.
02:03:14
>> That seems that seems madness, right? Yeah. Or >> is it just a case of when you know, you
02:03:18
know? >> No, it's madness on a level. >> No, but it's but it's not madness though
02:03:24
because it's it's it's been working successfully. >> Yeah. I mean, God, like any
02:03:29
relationship, you have your your ups and downs. But I think for us, we were at an
02:03:33
age where we weren't mcking around. I mean, the first night I asked him, "Do
02:03:38
you want more children?" Two beautiful daughters. And he said to me, "Do do you
02:03:43
do you want more children?" He said, "I could go either way." And I said, "Yeah,
02:03:46
I do." And I mean, it was a pretty forward conversation to have and yes, we'd had a few under the belt, but you
02:03:53
know, you kind of get to a stage you go, "Are we doing like if this is if this is
02:03:58
on, it's on." Like, >> well, you're 40 at the time, so 40 time's running out. Time's running out.
02:04:03
>> Tick tock, tick tock. >> But I don't know. It was one of those
02:04:06
moments where we both knew when we saw one another. Yeah. Did >> Did you think that ship had sailed for
02:04:11
you? Like becoming becoming a mom to your own biological kids? No, >> I knew time was running out and I didn't
02:04:19
know whether I could have children, >> but I still was hopeful that I could.
02:04:26
>> Yeah. And we were pregnant within 4 months. Yeah. Of meeting. >> Incredible.
02:04:35
>> Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a pretty cool story. Um, >> it's a classic JM, isn't it?
02:04:41
>> I'm sure I've got my version. And I'm sure my husband's got his version of it
02:04:44
as well. But you know, again, you don't do things by halves, man. You're either
02:04:47
in or you're in or not. >> It's so cool. It's I'm I'm so pleased
02:04:52
that you've Yeah, you you found your forever person. >> Yeah. Thank you.
02:04:55
>> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Um Jeez, we've been going just over two
02:04:58
hours. Home stretch now. Just got How do you find it reflecting on everything you've done? I I gather you're quite a
02:05:03
forward thinking person, so you're more interested in what's next rather than
02:05:07
what's been. >> Yeah. And a lot of stuff I I've actually packed away. I you know
02:05:16
because you're right because I do think about what's coming next as opposed to
02:05:20
you know what's happened. >> I use what's happened in the past to inform you know the different decisions
02:05:27
that I make in the future. But ultimately >> I just want to keep moving forward. Mhm.
02:05:36
>> I mean, on a level, I I enjoy it because it's nice to reflect on some of
02:05:41
the things that I've done in the past that I might have forgotten about. But the honest truth is
02:05:49
it's not a comfortable space for me to be in. >> Yeah. >> We didn't even talk about you
02:05:55
representing New Zealand at Touch either. Like, oh my god, you're such an overachiever. What year were you in the
02:06:01
NZ Touch team? I don't know. Um >> Oh, come on. >> No, no, no, no.
02:06:06
>> Were you in there with any of the Yonkees? Like George Yon? >> No. He was in my touch team in Palmston.
02:06:11
He was a legend. Played for New Zealand. >> Oh, look. Look, I can't remember names.
02:06:15
I remember faces. Um I mean quite often people come, oh, we played in such and such. And I'm
02:06:21
like, >> cool. >> You meet so many people. >> No, no, no, no, no. But again, I think
02:06:28
that is a little bit because I was always striving and trying, you know, the next
02:06:34
thing. I never never sat in the moment. I never actually and I think about this with the Black
02:06:42
Ferns and the way they celebrate one another and the way they celebrate moments, whether it's a win or a loss,
02:06:46
they just, you know, they sit in it. I don't think that's anything that I ever
02:06:51
did. It was kind of like, oh yeah, won a national next. Oh, yeah. On to the next
02:06:55
thing. And so a lot of faces, you know, a lot of names and events that I've I can't
02:07:03
remember or forgotten about because I was too focused on what was the next thing.
02:07:10
>> But I I think it was 99 the 99 World Cup I went to in Sydney for touch ripped off. Anyway, that's
02:07:18
another story. >> What color medal did you get? >> Silver. >> Another silver
02:07:23
>> to Australia. Jeez. Quarter of a century on, still bitter about it. >> I know. And I still remember it, too.
02:07:31
But anyway, um >> Yeah. >> Oh, that's cool. >> That was another time. Yeah.
02:07:39
>> Um what's the biggest mistake you think you've ever made? Oh, that's a
02:07:57
I'm sure there have been a few. You don't get to 50 without some missteps, eh?
02:08:08
>> Yeah, but again, I tend to look at them and go, "Yeah, okay. Screwed that up.
02:08:14
>> How do I be better?" >> I don't know. The thing that really pops
02:08:19
in my mind is just doubting myself. Mhm. >> That would be the biggest mistake.
02:08:24
>> And doing it over and over again >> or doubting yourself over and over
02:08:28
again. >> Doubting myself. >> Yeah. >> Are you managed to Are you at a stage in
02:08:35
life now where you can see past that? >> Yep. Totally. It's not like those
02:08:38
narratives still don't pop in my head, but I just know how to deal with them a
02:08:42
bit better nowadays. >> Um I think >> that's how just how the human brain
02:08:45
works. It's wired to the negative a bit. >> Yeah. And it's there to try and protect
02:08:49
you. Um, and it's just a matter of rewiring it or interrupting it or dealing with it
02:08:56
however you know you you can deal with it. But >> yeah, off the top of my head, that's
02:09:04
>> Yeah, >> that's a great answer. So unexpected, but so great. >> What does success mean to you now?
02:09:10
>> Um, it's the little things. It's the little things. It's the not losing my [ __ ] with my
02:09:19
sons, >> which you did yesterday. >> Which I did yesterday. Oh gosh.
02:09:26
>> Oh, you're only human though. They're 9year-old boys. >> I know. I know. I know.
02:09:32
It this this last few months has been really really interesting. And I kind of think
02:09:42
success for me now is being content with whatever is happening. H >> so when I'm feeling stressed with my sons
02:10:01
actually guess that's normal but flipping it and going but I might not have if I was
02:10:10
still working I might not have had the opportunity to actually >> have this moment with my sons no matter
02:10:16
whether it's a good one or a bad But that for me in its own small way is success of flipping that narrative and
02:10:26
going actually yes this isn't ideal but I have the opportunity to be in this
02:10:32
moment with my sons >> reframing it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Instead of I mean if it was this
02:10:36
time last year you may have been on your phone responding to emails and >> I would have been at work.
02:10:41
>> Yeah. >> We would have been in prep mode before the show started.
02:10:44
>> I wouldn't have been at home. The boys would have been somewhere else. Um, you
02:10:48
know, last night success for me is my son had his mates over. I'm about to go from zero to six with my
02:10:59
son. And he goes, "Just listen. You're not listening to me." And I stopped and I went, "Right." And I
02:11:10
looked at him and he explained what he was saying. The reason that's success for me is
02:11:18
because last year when I was deep in work, I wouldn't have stopped. >> I wouldn't have taken a breath and went,
02:11:30
"Okay, as much as I really want to have a go now, actually, he's telling me what
02:11:35
he needs. I need you to listen to me, mama, because you're not listening to me."
02:11:39
>> That for me is success. So I'm learn trying to learn now to actually
02:11:48
enjoy those moments and like you say reframe it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a privilege and you'll be
02:12:00
able to do I don't know if they'll they'll want you to do school drop off
02:12:03
but you'll be you'll be in a position where you can no grandfather does school
02:12:06
drop off. He always has. M >> um >> so we're very lucky whereby uh Dean's
02:12:12
parents live with us. >> They live upstairs. So Pop's always taken uh the boys to and from school and
02:12:19
so that's his routine. That's his time that he spends with the boys. >> Um yeah, like I think they enjoy me
02:12:26
being home >> to a certain extent and then I think there's times that they
02:12:31
go, "Oh, can you just go back to work? Like can you just not hang out with us?"
02:12:36
Like sometimes I'll go and sit in the room with them. You know, they're sitting and watching TV and
02:12:40
>> I'll sit in there and they'll go, "What are you doing in here? What do you
02:12:44
want?" >> I just want to hang out with you. Oh, how long are you going to stay?
02:12:50
>> You want me to go, son? Yeah. Is that We laugh about it, but is it sort of is it cute or is it sort of does
02:13:00
it sting a little? >> No, I love it because you know they know what they want. They don't they don't
02:13:06
have an issue with saying, you know, what they think. There are moments where they'll look at me and they'll go,
02:13:12
"Okay, I think mom's a little bit vulnerable right now." No, you can stay
02:13:15
for a little. You can stay. >> Yeah. >> So, they have their moments, but you
02:13:19
know, they speak their mind. >> Yeah. >> So, as we've established, um, you've
02:13:24
done so much, but there is still so much life ahead. Are you proud of who you're
02:13:27
becoming? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. As I said earlier, I think the best is is yet to to come. And
02:13:43
>> I mean, I've always been proud of myself. >> I just can't wait to step into this next
02:13:52
season, whatever that looks like, >> and what more I can achieve. >> What do you think has been the um the
02:13:57
the best season and the hardest season of your life so far? >> Oh, god. Dom.
02:14:03
Sorry. >> Can I just skip through these if >> No, no, no. I'm just like
02:14:07
>> now is the best season. Now is the hardest season. Whatever season you're
02:14:11
in, I think that's it. >> Like it's the best because I'm exploring
02:14:16
what what life could potentially look like. And it's the toughest cuz I don't know
02:14:20
what it's going to look like. >> Yeah. And again, you know, I can reflect back
02:14:25
on different moments in time, but for for what purpose, >> man, that's such a good answer. I can
02:14:32
see why you've had so much success. Eh, >> just just the mindset. Yeah, I can
02:14:37
completely >> It's just the Yeah, just the the competitiveness, the just like parking
02:14:42
stuff and just moving on to the next thing. Just constantly looking forward. >> Uh yeah, and again, I mean, it sounds
02:14:48
>> and being disappointed with silver medals. I mean, it all sounds, you know,
02:14:53
like you just kind of get on with things, but again, there's a lot of there's a lot of work I've had to do and
02:14:59
a lot of um, you know, pain, hurt, disappointment, all of those things that are wrapped up in all of that.
02:15:07
>> What sort of work? Like, have you had any therapy or anything? >> Yeah, I've um been and we've got a
02:15:13
family therapist. So every now and again my boys will go and see her when I feel
02:15:18
like we're missing something. They'll go and and chat with her. Um me um working through some of my own
02:15:30
stuff, my husband working through some of his own stuff, us working together, >> you know, through some of our things
02:15:35
because I think >> it's really important to be able to do that. um and not stay stuck
02:15:48
and have somebody who can make sense of where you're at >> and help you make sense of it more
02:15:58
importantly. >> Yeah. Just give you a different way of reframing some things.
02:16:01
>> Yeah. And so I think that's really important. So, I've done that, you know,
02:16:05
and again, when it came to grief, actually, just listening to podcasts, trying different things, writing things
02:16:10
down, um, going to the beach, going for walks, you know, all of those sorts of things where I'm
02:16:19
constantly trying to learn. Mhm. >> Uh and again I you know reflection is something that's really really important
02:16:26
for me to be able to understand why I've done things that I've done you know why
02:16:30
I'm thinking the way that I'm thinking to make sense of it and then to be able
02:16:33
to move on from it >> and not just continue in the same old patterns and habits.
02:16:39
>> Yeah. >> That don't serve you. Um >> yeah, >> you you mentioned um at the very
02:16:48
beginning um about your journaling habit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What does what does that look
02:16:52
like? Is it like um just five minutes of writing gratitude or >> Yep. So first thing in the morning, I'll
02:16:57
write down uh three things I'm grateful for in this moment, but three things
02:17:02
that I'm grateful for that are coming in the future. So whether that looks like
02:17:06
mortgage free, more time, whatever it is. Oh, so almost like manifestation in a way.
02:17:12
>> Yeah. >> What I want my future to look like and then just writing whatever's in my head.
02:17:21
Um, and it took me a long time to actually get around to journaling because I always thought that I could work through
02:17:28
things in my mind to try and unpack things in my mind. But then, you know, I realized that actually that narrative
02:17:35
just kept going round and round and I wasn't actually getting it out, which is
02:17:39
what journaling does. >> But it also helps me make sense of different ways that I'm thinking about
02:17:43
why did I respond in this certain way. And actually when I start writing, that becomes clear. And again, whether that's
02:17:50
about ego, whether that's, you know, whatever it is, that inevitably will come out in my
02:17:56
journaling. May not be that day. it might be 3 or 4 days later when I'm just, you know, whatever's in my head
02:18:02
and then I make the connection. >> So, it's been a really powerful tool for
02:18:06
me to be able to make sense of things but also let a whole lot of stuff go. But it also
02:18:16
um you know, like I was writing some things down and then I realized there was a little bit of resentment in there
02:18:21
or where's that coming from? Why? which then prompted a conversation between my
02:18:26
husband and I about how I was feeling about, you know, different things. Not major,
02:18:31
>> but it's one of those things whereby had I left it, that would have accumulated,
02:18:35
become something bigger, and then before I know it, I'm blowing up. And I I've leared now that's not where I
02:18:43
want to end up. And so having conversations early, having uncomfortable conversations,
02:18:50
you know, when they're needed is powerful >> not only for you as an individual, but
02:18:58
also for us in our relationship as well. >> Are you good at those tough conversations or do
02:19:03
>> never used to be. >> You procrastinate with them. >> It never used to be. Um, I was very
02:19:08
much, well, I'm right and you just have to adjust cuz this is how I am and you
02:19:14
know don't like it. Oh well. I was very much like that. >> And my beautiful husband has
02:19:22
>> Yeah. >> had had a lot of patience with me and because ultimately we just we want
02:19:31
to have a happy relationship. And that happens because we put work into it. >> And again, that's the hard
02:19:40
conversations. And knowing I can't have this conversation right now. I know it's important, but actually
02:19:49
if you push me once more, I'm going to say something that I will regret or that
02:19:53
I don't want to say. And so let's have it, but I just need time to I don't know
02:20:01
get rid of the anger or everything else that you know I'm feeling in this moment.
02:20:07
>> And him having the patience to go that's cool and whether it's a day later or a
02:20:12
week later actually sitting back down and going okay so what happened? >> So making sure that we're both safe when
02:20:19
we go into those conversations and that it's not a conversation to hurt one another. It's actually just to unpack
02:20:24
and try and figure out >> what happened and then how do we >> how do we deal with that not only now
02:20:30
but in the future >> because I don't want to be walking around the house walking on eggshells. I
02:20:36
don't want to be not being able to express myself and vice versa >> or just building resentment over time.
02:20:42
building resentment over time and then not even realizing, can't even remember
02:20:45
what started that because there's been so much accumulation and holding on to
02:20:49
stuff >> and not actually confronting one another and going, "Hey, look, this is something
02:20:53
that we actually need to talk about. It's ugly, you know, but in order for us
02:20:58
to continue to keep growing, then we need to do and have those conversations." And so I'm grateful for
02:21:05
him for being so patient with me, me flying off the handle and, you know, being very it's all about me
02:21:14
and gently over the years pushing me into that space where we now, you know, it's still not easy, but when
02:21:24
there's something that comes up, it's actually going, "Hey, we need to talk
02:21:26
about this." >> Yeah. Cuz it's confronting, right? Um, >> well, it's just easier not to have these
02:21:33
conversations than to have them. >> Yeah. And you just carry on with your life.
02:21:37
>> But where's the depth? >> Yeah. >> Where's the depth in the relationship if
02:21:41
those are the things that you're afraid to >> confront? Everything's on a surface
02:21:46
level. >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, it's easy to look at other people's relationships and pick
02:21:53
out of those, but actually, what about your own? >> You know, >> 100%.
02:21:57
>> Yeah. >> Um, God, this has been so great. I I love your journaling practice as well.
02:22:02
Um like the the thought about like writing thing three things in the future that you're thankful for. I never
02:22:07
thought about that. I mean I'm going to start doing that. You weren't doing this
02:22:09
during the breakfast years were you? >> When did you start journaling? >> Uh no I've been this you know kind of
02:22:15
gratitude journaling all of this is practices that have kind of come and gone over the years.
02:22:21
And it's usually I'll bring it back when I feel like things are getting away on me and I always
02:22:30
return to those practices that I know work for me. So it's not something I will do religiously every day. I will do
02:22:38
it for a few weeks and then I know this is my pattern. It'll kind of drop off
02:22:43
for a bit and then I go, okay, that's something I need to bring back cuz there's stuff going on my head that's
02:22:48
still going around. So, I need to actually write this down. So, it's actually something I've been
02:22:53
doing for years. >> Wow. >> Off and on. Um, but I know the power of it and I know how it's worked for me.
02:23:02
>> And I know a lot of people, you know, they've heard about this kind of
02:23:06
practice and they go, "Yeah, whatever." >> But it works. >> I always thought it was a bit woo, but
02:23:12
it makes you so much more. It just opens your mind to all the great things that are happening around you every day.
02:23:17
>> And it just reframes your mind. And that's why I do it in the mornings, you
02:23:20
know, or at night if I'm struggling to go to sleep, I'll think about a couple
02:23:23
of good things that have happened that day. >> But what it does do is it reframes your
02:23:28
lens in which you move into the day with. You know, get up, do what you need to do. You know, for me
02:23:35
that's working out, having breakfast first thing when I get up, working out, and sitting down for 5
02:23:43
minutes. It doesn't have to be long just to sit there and go, "Okay, so these are
02:23:47
the good things that are happening in my life." I think we, you know, when you
02:23:50
look at social media and how much access we have to other people's lives, it's
02:23:54
easy to look at your own and go, "God, our shit," >> you know, or
02:23:59
>> I wish that I was living that life and reminding ourel that's a snapshot of
02:24:03
somebody's life, >> but actually less time focused on that and more time focused on the things that
02:24:09
you do have. >> Yeah. You know, for me, it's grateful having my mom still with us. It's
02:24:14
grateful a conversation that I had with my son. It's grateful for being able to
02:24:21
have the practice of sitting down and journaling and actually get some of the stuff that's going around in my head out
02:24:26
and to try and make sense of it. It's the simple things um that we can focus
02:24:31
in on on our lives. And you know, again, not wanting what everybody else has, but
02:24:42
actually just being grateful for what you do have, which is a lot. >> Absolutely. I hope some people will hear
02:24:49
this or watch this and start trying this practice for themselves. >> Me, too.
02:24:53
>> What three words would you like family and friends to use to describe you? Say,
02:24:57
say your kids and your husband were in the next room talking about you behind your back.
02:25:02
>> Three three individual words. What would you like them to say? God love,
02:25:06
passionate, >> bossy. >> Yeah, if they want to, I wouldn't be offended.
02:25:19
Um, I don't know what the word is for this, but uh wanting more for them. always,
02:25:31
you know, like I'm trying to get my sons to think about not just a job like you
02:25:35
be the boss like you do you do what makes you happy but at the same time think outside the square. I want you to
02:25:44
be have courage. I want you to be ambitious for yourself. um and not just accept
02:25:55
what you see or what you hear actually, >> which is why we encourage our sons,
02:26:00
which doesn't worry me when they go, "Oh, I can you not be in here? Can you
02:26:03
go can you go over there?" Um because you know we we want them to be respectful, not be dicks, but at the
02:26:12
same time if they have something to say, then they should say it in a way that's
02:26:19
kind and respectful, but not be afraid to say it. Yeah. Ambitious. That's what I want them
02:26:28
to be. I And I don't care what that leads to. I just want them to be happy. But I just
02:26:33
I want them to have bigger thinking than what I did growing up. >> You thought pretty big though, didn't
02:26:40
you? >> Do you look back and think I could have >> Oh, yeah. And again, you know, you talk
02:26:47
about mistakes and me talking myself down and not backing myself enough. >> Yeah, there's a certain humility about
02:26:56
that, too. But there's also a lot of it that holds you back. M >> could there have been other things I
02:27:01
could have achieved? Yeah, potentially >> I just want them to know that every that
02:27:07
they can do whatever they want to do. >> Yeah. >> And you know when they talk about
02:27:11
wanting to do certain things and you kind of in your head you're going, "Oh
02:27:13
god." You know, you know that only two people make that or whatever. >> Are they at the age yet where they've
02:27:20
said they want to be like a a YouTuber? >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always that
02:27:24
YouTuber and kind of go, "Oh, yeah, cool." you know, but I'm learning to not
02:27:27
shut that down and kind of go, >> you know, you do whatever you want. Um, and I say within reason, but you know,
02:27:35
you just hope over time they kind of they find they find their thing. But >> yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether
02:27:42
I answered your question, but >> Yeah. No, no, you did. Jeez, you're a
02:27:45
great mom, eh? They're very lucky. >> Well, they might. >> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I
02:27:50
mean, like I say, I mean, I told you about my night and my morning and, you know, losing the plot with my sons.
02:27:59
I mean, you know, you you apologize, but then you reflect and you go, God, you know, I could have dealt with that
02:28:07
differently, you know. >> Oh, you learn. >> Yeah. >> One final question. So, um, the Generate
02:28:12
Kiwi Saver scheme, they sponsor my show and they're all about performance. They
02:28:16
put it first in everything they do. What's something in your life that you've obsessed over getting better at
02:28:20
and why did it matter so much to you? >> Feel like there's numerous directions.
02:28:25
>> I was going to say, >> yeah, there are lots of things. >> Like the easy one would be netball. Like
02:28:35
you wanted to be a silver phone from the age of 10 and that came true in your 20s.
02:28:41
>> But I feel like there's probably a lot deeper things as well. >> Yeah. I just I kind of, you know, and
02:28:45
again in the space that I'm in at the moment, it's being a better mom, being
02:28:53
uh better at how I speak to myself, um better wife, better stepmom, better friend. All of
02:29:06
those things I think >> that really are important to me now or not now and always have been, but I
02:29:15
guess because I have more capacity to be able to focus in on those sorts of things.
02:29:22
But yeah, when I talk about being better at how I speak to myself, it's, you know, again, I'm I've got my online
02:29:30
business that I'm running and I was writing something else and I was going, "Oh, yeah, business owner. Oh yeah,
02:29:36
entrepreneur." You know, those are words that I never thought that I would actually say about myself. But actually,
02:29:42
it's exactly what I'm doing at the moment and owning that and being proud
02:29:46
of that. But I think I approach most things, if not everything, with the mentality of just wanting to be better
02:29:55
at it. >> Yeah, it's inspiring. >> This has been a phenomenal conversation.
02:30:03
>> Two hours, >> two and a half hours, >> 28 minutes. Wow. >> Look, a couple of nipple games and a bit
02:30:12
of overtime. >> I left my children at home on their own, so I hope they're okay.
02:30:17
>> Oh my god. Have they got access to the inapp purchases with Roblox? >> No.
02:30:22
>> You're going to have to go back to work if that's the Hey, um Jeannie May
02:30:27
Clarkson Jay JMC, thank you so much for coming today and being a guest on the podcast.
02:30:32
>> Pleasure. It's been awesome. I've loved every moment of it and again I'm Yeah.
02:30:36
Thank you for the opportunity to sit and chat with you. I really do appreciate it.
02:30:42
Come here. We're done.