00:00:06
Jackson Garden bash welcome to my
00:00:07
podcast thank you thanks for having me
00:00:09
mat it's great to have you here um first
00:00:12
of all for anyone that's not um that
00:00:14
familiar with rugby uh your position as
00:00:17
number 10 what does what does number 10
00:00:18
mean number 10 what literally means
00:00:21
first five that's where uh I don't know
00:00:24
we do lots of passing lots of kicking um
00:00:26
lots of organizing lots of talking um
00:00:29
and not and a lot of tackling so yeah
00:00:32
it's a good spot to be in it's a good
00:00:33
spot to be in yeah and some other number
00:00:35
10 that people might be familiar with
00:00:36
would be like Dan Carter um going way
00:00:40
back Grant Fox Bowden Barrett yeah oh
00:00:43
you took bod's you took bod's job at the
00:00:45
Hurricanes oh tried to was wasn't overly
00:00:47
successful there but yeah I he was sort
00:00:50
of who I was under for the first couple
00:00:51
years that I was at the Hurricanes um
00:00:53
and learned a lot I learn a lot off and
00:00:55
then he made the move up here so yeah
00:00:58
there was a spot there that I held down
00:00:59
for a couple of years is um yeah no that
00:01:01
was
00:01:02
cool big boots to full yes yeah how was
00:01:05
how was that how was that on X or
00:01:07
Twitter oh not great to be honest I mean
00:01:12
especially the stage of his career that
00:01:13
he was in he was back toback player of
00:01:15
the year I think World Player of the
00:01:16
Year um at that stage so um I was never
00:01:20
trying to be bow and Barrett but yeah
00:01:23
obviously there's a lot of people out
00:01:25
there especially the hurricane
00:01:26
supporters that were used to the best
00:01:27
player in the world being in that
00:01:29
position and that wasn't me um instantly
00:01:31
so yeah I got I got a bit rough times
00:01:33
online but you know you just got
00:01:36
to know who to care about really in
00:01:39
terms of of opinion I suppose it's um
00:01:41
it's a blessing and a curse of the sport
00:01:43
he because the Sport's so popular you do
00:01:44
have this at of buying from people but
00:01:47
just Savage yeah it is uh in all sports
00:01:50
over the world it's it's a really
00:01:52
bizarre thing that um because obviously
00:01:55
it's entertainment and people support
00:01:57
you and they want you to do well um
00:02:00
there's a sort and obviously with the
00:02:01
access now on social media there's the
00:02:03
sort of I don't know right that people
00:02:06
think they have to to talk [ __ ] about
00:02:07
other people um and yeah it gets
00:02:10
ruthless I'm only small friy so I only
00:02:12
coped a little bit but I know some of
00:02:14
the the big dogs are who have millions
00:02:16
of followers when they have a bad game
00:02:17
you know it can be message requests can
00:02:19
be pretty full yeah yeah now you're um
00:02:22
you're from like a rugby Dynasty uh like
00:02:24
just a massive rugby background um so
00:02:26
your dad and uncle We're All Blacks um
00:02:29
your cousins Aaron and Nathan major all
00:02:31
blacks and your mom represented New
00:02:33
Zealand on Rugby touch rugby basketball
00:02:36
and hockey you never had a chance did
00:02:39
you like you were never going to get a
00:02:40
desk job like you were you were destined
00:02:43
for this yeah whether it was going to be
00:02:45
rugby or or just anything physical I
00:02:47
think you know and not just them they
00:02:49
were the ones that went to the highest
00:02:50
honors but our whole family is all uh
00:02:53
sporty active um so that's all as kids
00:02:56
we really wanted to be um just like Mom
00:02:59
and Dad I guess when when you a kid I
00:03:01
found this old book at um home today
00:03:03
from 19 have you ever seen this book now
00:03:05
we've got one of those somewhere in in a
00:03:07
box somewhere like uh I forget where I
00:03:09
got it from I think you bought them at
00:03:10
like calex or something so this is um
00:03:12
the official 1998 rugby super2 handbook
00:03:15
on the cover your dad running just
00:03:17
behind T Umaga who coincidentally is
00:03:19
your coach now yeah I was literally just
00:03:20
thinking that I haven't thought about
00:03:21
that book in ages but yeah it's crazy
00:03:24
and then there's yeah your dad's your
00:03:26
dad's in here it's um it's incredible
00:03:28
and this is the team you went on to play
00:03:29
for the Hurricanes yeah um so what are
00:03:32
your earliest memories of high
00:03:34
performance parents so you you were born
00:03:36
in denan yeah and then um spent your
00:03:38
early years like basically being a kid
00:03:41
of a rugby player so you went to the UK
00:03:43
where your dad was playing yeah so I was
00:03:45
born in Den Eden when I was two um that
00:03:48
got signed to the Hurricanes so that's
00:03:49
when we moved up there till I was four
00:03:51
um and then we went to the UK to where
00:03:53
he finished his career um first with
00:03:55
London Irish and London and then the
00:03:57
leads Tes they were called back then um
00:03:59
and leads um and honestly I was pretty
00:04:02
young we I came back to New Zealand when
00:04:03
I was eight um and I can't I can't
00:04:07
really remember anything of them being
00:04:09
high performance more that just he was a
00:04:11
he was a rugby player and it was awesome
00:04:13
and we got to go watch him at the
00:04:14
stadium and um sometimes we got to go to
00:04:17
training and and see him work there but
00:04:20
it never at that time it didn't click
00:04:21
for me that it was a job um and that he
00:04:24
was a professional athlete it was more
00:04:26
just my dad's a man he's a rugby player
00:04:28
and we we get to follow him around
00:04:29
everywhere doing it so so what do you
00:04:33
yeah so in the UK you played um like a
00:04:35
bit of soccer football yeah um yeah that
00:04:38
was my main sport when I was over there
00:04:39
cuz every obviously Everyone likes to
00:04:40
play football I'm there so even when I
00:04:43
first moved back to New Zealand I always
00:04:44
had aspirations of playing soccer um but
00:04:48
just socially it wasn't as popular at
00:04:50
primary school so quickly enjoyed rugby
00:04:54
more um just because all my friends were
00:04:55
doing it yeah and how how was that
00:04:57
transition like moving back to New
00:04:59
Zealand as as an 8-year-old and
00:05:00
reintegrating back into kiwi Society
00:05:04
oh I can't apart from being teased for
00:05:06
my accent I I think it was it was pretty
00:05:09
seamless um New Zealand's a really
00:05:11
awesome place and I'm I'm noticing that
00:05:13
now as a dad as very family Centric very
00:05:15
kid Centric um the way the schooling
00:05:18
systems run is just very kids focused
00:05:22
making sure that the kids are happy in
00:05:24
in an in a situation situation where
00:05:27
they can Thrive so I think that's what I
00:05:28
felt when I came back um what what do
00:05:31
you mean taste for your accent did you
00:05:32
did you have like a little English
00:05:33
accent oh yeah full on did full on I had
00:05:35
to I had to train it me and my mom well
00:05:38
me to my mom used to go home um every
00:05:40
day and just try and get rid of it as
00:05:42
soon as possible what do you mean I
00:05:44
can't I'm not going to try and imitate
00:05:45
it now um but yeah no I started school
00:05:48
over there obviously I was at leed's
00:05:49
grammar school um for a couple of years
00:05:51
so yeah full integrated and full-on P um
00:05:55
yeah me my brother and my sister all had
00:05:57
Posh little accents it was
00:06:00
the the home videos are so funny now
00:06:03
especially a little high pitch English
00:06:04
accent compared to the way that I speak
00:06:06
now so I'm sort of imagining you you
00:06:09
sounding like like Prince William and
00:06:10
Kate Middleton's kid yeah yeah something
00:06:13
like that so you had to come home and
00:06:15
like try and try and sort of like untr
00:06:17
unfuck yourself really with yeah yeah
00:06:19
cuz I get teased and then I'll be saying
00:06:20
like peiss off peiss off and then all
00:06:22
that that's all that people would be
00:06:23
saying to me so I'm like [ __ ] get home
00:06:27
get it cop cup not yet not yet cup cup
00:06:31
that that's not it still English unreal
00:06:34
and um I believe you yeah your your M
00:06:36
it's from what I I've read about her
00:06:38
she's no longer with us and we'll get to
00:06:39
that part of part of your story but um
00:06:42
she encouraged you guys to play every
00:06:43
sport Under the Sun yeah that simple as
00:06:46
that um the best example I have is sort
00:06:49
of my my weekly schedule um when I was
00:06:51
Junior so so Saturday I would play half
00:06:54
a game of soccer at half time I'd get in
00:06:56
the car and go to rugby play that game
00:06:58
um the next day Sunday I'd play rugby
00:07:00
league um and then through the through
00:07:02
the week I'd have basketball for School
00:07:04
athletics one night a week um yeah
00:07:06
really just encouraged us to get amongst
00:07:08
as much as we could um and I don't know
00:07:11
how she logistically took care of that
00:07:13
because my kids have done one soccer
00:07:15
training a week and trying to fit
00:07:16
everything in this a lot chaos man yeah
00:07:18
it's a lot what was the um thinking
00:07:20
behind that just so that you could you
00:07:22
know attach yourself to something that
00:07:23
you love or find I'm sure I'm not sure I
00:07:26
never got to a age where I was sort of
00:07:28
old enough and aware enough to be like
00:07:30
why are you doing why are you doing this
00:07:31
m but I I never didn't didn't enjoy any
00:07:34
of it um and anything we didn't enjoy
00:07:37
mom wouldn't have forced it on us um
00:07:39
yeah she was more just facilitating
00:07:41
stuff for us to try um and the things
00:07:44
that we loved we sort of carried on with
00:07:46
yeah so um you've recently moved to
00:07:49
Oakland um because for the 2025 season
00:07:52
you playing for um Moana Pacifica and
00:07:54
Super Rugby um it feels like this is
00:07:57
another sort of one of those
00:07:58
serendipitous moment so last year you
00:08:00
played your 100th game for Wellington um
00:08:03
which but was the final which you guys
00:08:04
won Incredible um the last person to do
00:08:07
that was Tana in 2007 and you were
00:08:10
actually at that game as a kid yeah like
00:08:13
a 12 13 12 would have been about that I
00:08:16
would have still been at Primary School
00:08:18
um but yeah that was a pretty a
00:08:20
religious thing that we do after North
00:08:21
game in the morning you know you get few
00:08:23
Bo few of the boys together and get some
00:08:25
tickets and go and watch the Lions and
00:08:27
um yeah I remember that game especially
00:08:29
there was a really special one I
00:08:31
remember they were uh giving him the
00:08:33
13th aisle in the stadium I'm giving him
00:08:36
a big picture on that still wedding on
00:08:38
that actually and then and he no me oh
00:08:41
yeah the number
00:08:43
10 and then just I remember him being
00:08:45
carried off and everyone giving him a
00:08:47
standing o and just he was the man as
00:08:49
well cuz he was the All Blacks captain
00:08:51
and he led the Haka and um we knew him
00:08:55
um knew their family quite well so I
00:08:58
remember being there and it's pretty
00:08:59
crazy to think between that and myself
00:09:02
that no one else was able to do it um
00:09:05
yeah it's pretty cool I'm proud of it
00:09:07
yeah 18 years gap between him doing it
00:09:09
and you doing it and um now you're
00:09:11
you're collabing again he's your coach
00:09:13
at Moana Pacifica which is incredible
00:09:15
yeah um yes so you debuted for
00:09:17
Wellington in 2013 when you were 19 so
00:09:21
were you just naturally good like at
00:09:23
high school you played on your first 15
00:09:24
for like four of your five years right
00:09:26
yeah which I made it you're how old then
00:09:30
uh I would have been 14 going on 15 yes
00:09:33
that's crazy cuz you're playing some big
00:09:35
kids yeah I think it was a combination
00:09:36
of obviously there's natural ability
00:09:39
I've been playing and being around rugby
00:09:40
for a long time um between year 9ine and
00:09:43
10 I grew about a foot and put on about
00:09:45
15 kilo so I was actually not too much
00:09:46
smaller than everyone um and also Scots
00:09:49
College where I went to school at the
00:09:51
time wasn't traditionally a strong rugby
00:09:53
school so yeah the pool of talent wasn't
00:09:56
wasn't great so there was an opportunity
00:09:58
there and
00:10:00
yeah four the best years of my life to
00:10:01
be honest there the older guys on your
00:10:04
team that year if they hear like oh
00:10:05
that's a bit hurtful mate come
00:10:07
on I remember when I got there in year n
00:10:10
and the first 15 had just lost the
00:10:12
division 2 semi-final and the year 13s
00:10:14
at the time were all saying oh man this
00:10:16
is the because that's the best they've
00:10:18
done in a long time they're like man
00:10:19
we're not going to see this for a while
00:10:20
like this is awesome like let's enjoy it
00:10:22
while at last and then just by chance
00:10:24
sort of we got a good generation came
00:10:26
through and we we went up and up but
00:10:29
yeah terms of me making in your team
00:10:30
that that definitely helped but were you
00:10:32
were you good like was there like a
00:10:34
constant hum around you like um your one
00:10:36
to watch or you with their talent scouts
00:10:38
coming to keep an eye on you and things
00:10:39
like that I don't know about talent
00:10:40
scouts but I was pretty lucky I was
00:10:42
amongst all the sort of age gra stuff
00:10:45
um yeah sort of from under 13s under 14s
00:10:48
up to under 16s and 18s I was always
00:10:50
amongst the the Wellington teams in that
00:10:52
or at least traling for them and and
00:10:54
around that um always a bit of attention
00:10:57
just because of my last name um which
00:11:00
gets your foot on the door and then the
00:11:02
times that I was able to play well
00:11:03
obviously it got me
00:11:05
picked yeah yeah yeah I was thinking
00:11:07
about that it must be tough having a
00:11:08
name like that or like if you're a llu
00:11:11
or an or whatever like it's it's a lot
00:11:14
of added pressure yeah definitely
00:11:16
especially among peers when you're young
00:11:18
like kids are dumb and that guy's only
00:11:21
here because of his name only here
00:11:22
because of his dead it's like yeah
00:11:25
potentially potentially some people
00:11:27
would be that case but you know your
00:11:28
last name might be a foot in the door
00:11:31
but you got to open the door and play
00:11:33
well you get found out if you [ __ ] you
00:11:35
they're not going to leave you there
00:11:36
just because of your name are they
00:11:37
exactly if you if you're losing games
00:11:38
because you're not good enough like it's
00:11:41
about winning so what are your
00:11:42
Recollections of that day before for
00:11:44
Wellington in 2013 when you're 19 were
00:11:46
you [ __ ] yourself yeah was [ __ ]
00:11:48
myself
00:11:50
um yeah it's funny that whole season I
00:11:52
played 12 minutes that that year um Lima
00:11:55
Sanger was the 10 um Tim bitman couple
00:11:58
old fellas they were they were sort of
00:11:59
covering that 10 position so I only
00:12:02
played 12 minutes and I only got into
00:12:04
that game on the bench because someone
00:12:05
got injured on the last day of training
00:12:07
um yeah and I was not a professional
00:12:10
professional rugby player back then in
00:12:11
ter in the way that I viewed the game
00:12:14
sort of approached the game approach my
00:12:15
training and and all of that so yeah I
00:12:18
was well out of my depth um the actual
00:12:21
game itself was all a blur um all I
00:12:24
remember is the first thing that got
00:12:25
called I from not paying attention at
00:12:27
training I didn't know what it was
00:12:30
um it was actually Ary and Matt Proctor
00:12:33
my mates they they it was a move that
00:12:35
they had to stand behind me which is a
00:12:37
bizarre position or I thought it was a
00:12:39
bizarre spot for them to be in so I was
00:12:41
looking behind me going what's going on
00:12:43
here and yeah rest's history
00:12:46
but I could have been I could have
00:12:48
definitely been more prepared yeah are
00:12:50
you are you familiar with the term
00:12:51
impostor syndrome yeah vely yeah it s of
00:12:55
means where you're in an environment and
00:12:56
you're like [ __ ] I'm I'm I'm out of my
00:12:58
depth here going to be caught out and um
00:13:00
a lot of it is like completely
00:13:02
irrational um but a lot of it I'm
00:13:04
guessing if you're 19 in an environment
00:13:05
like that with a lot of experienced
00:13:06
players um you'd probably be right to
00:13:08
sort of feel that way I I I don't know
00:13:11
of imposter syndrome but definitely
00:13:13
naive naive to the to the fact that even
00:13:15
though I was young and I there were
00:13:17
these all blacks and hurricanes and
00:13:19
Super Rugby players in front of me I was
00:13:21
naive to the fact that if I got called
00:13:22
on and I was going to play I had to be
00:13:24
at the level that they were at to make
00:13:26
sure that the team succeeded um yeah I
00:13:29
probably just thought that it wasn't my
00:13:31
time yet so I can just cruise and then
00:13:32
in a couple years when it is my go you
00:13:34
know I'll start taking it seriously so
00:13:37
yeah I never felt like I shouldn't be
00:13:38
there but I was definitely naive
00:13:41
definitely naive and what did your dad
00:13:43
text you after that game because I heard
00:13:44
on a another podcast you've done that um
00:13:47
when you play well your dad sends you
00:13:48
like a lengthy sort of text like a
00:13:50
paragraph yeah um and when you play
00:13:52
badly he just sends you like a couple of
00:13:53
work on yeah yeah yeah does he still do
00:13:56
that uh well at the moment he's he's
00:13:58
been hard for him to catch games CU I've
00:14:00
been playing in France and then the
00:14:01
first couple of preseason games so he
00:14:03
waits for the updates on how it went
00:14:04
from me um but yeah now it's it's a lot
00:14:08
of short and sharp stuff now I think you
00:14:10
did well or you know move on to the next
00:14:12
type thing but a really cool moment on
00:14:14
that game was as we were walking off the
00:14:16
field after our debuted I just remember
00:14:17
looking up at westpack and he was just
00:14:19
at the top of the aisle going like this
00:14:21
and that was pretty cool cuz yeah I knew
00:14:23
he was proud of me
00:14:25
then that is real cool yeah yeah that
00:14:28
means a lot
00:14:30
um yeah how how close how close are you
00:14:32
or how close have you been to making the
00:14:34
old blacks the old black Squad I don't
00:14:36
know if I've ever been terribly close um
00:14:40
yeah I definitely didn't play
00:14:42
consistently enough at Super Rugby I
00:14:43
haven't yet so I plan on doing so now um
00:14:46
for a long enough period of time but
00:14:49
mathematically if you think of the there
00:14:51
traditionally there's been five New
00:14:52
Zealand Super Rugby teams um five
00:14:55
starting tens and normally the three
00:14:57
tens in the old blacks get picked from
00:14:58
there and for a couple of Seasons I was
00:15:01
one of the starting tens um for the
00:15:03
hurricane
00:15:04
so no calls or anything or anything like
00:15:07
that though but well you know Whispers
00:15:09
from the coach like hey this could be
00:15:11
your year no no no no no well yeah well
00:15:14
explain the difference to me is is it
00:15:16
because your positions a really tough
00:15:17
one in terms of
00:15:18
depth uh in terms of what not making the
00:15:21
All Blacks yeah in terms of like depth
00:15:23
like there's there's just always been
00:15:24
like such good good people at number 10
00:15:26
like we talked about bod before and Dan
00:15:28
before that or Damen Mackenzie I don't
00:15:31
know I'm not sure there's probably been
00:15:32
more around my uh ability to lock in for
00:15:36
long periods of time um because when I
00:15:38
have I've been good and consistent but
00:15:40
it's taken me a long time to find my
00:15:42
feet in terms of my professionalism and
00:15:44
the way I hold myself and the way I sort
00:15:46
of approach the game um and the sport as
00:15:49
a
00:15:50
whole why why is that you just you just
00:15:53
want a more Balanced Life I know you
00:15:55
deep into your family and we'll get into
00:15:56
that stuff later yes well so that's my
00:15:58
balance now for a long time my balance
00:16:00
was partying and and my mates
00:16:03
and it's funny I S in the change room
00:16:07
when I gave my speech after my 100th
00:16:08
game I met my wife just after my 50th or
00:16:11
just before my 50th game and I just
00:16:13
talked about my purpose for my first 50
00:16:16
games compared to my second 50 games and
00:16:18
just how much more fulfilling my
00:16:20
purposes now in terms of playing to make
00:16:23
my kids proud playing to put food on the
00:16:26
table for them versus my first 50 I just
00:16:28
wanted to play well I was in the team
00:16:29
each week so I could get paid so I could
00:16:31
go to town and feel cool where my where
00:16:34
my lies play to town and feel really
00:16:35
cool so um yeah definitely a priority
00:16:39
shift in in there
00:16:41
[Music]
00:16:43
somewhere I think it's really it's good
00:16:45
that you can admit that and and see that
00:16:46
because a lot of people wouldn't
00:16:47
wouldn't want to admit that you know
00:16:49
that that it's been their own sort of um
00:16:52
I don't know they their own themselves
00:16:54
getting in the way of themselves Yeah
00:16:56
well yeah well it's just something that
00:16:57
comes with age yeah um
00:17:00
and probably a lot of denial the whole
00:17:02
way through that I was able to do both
00:17:05
but at some point if IID flick the
00:17:06
switch earlier who knows what could have
00:17:08
happened but I had a lot of fun I've met
00:17:11
a lot of good people um a lot of good
00:17:14
memories uh which I wouldn't change
00:17:17
which I wouldn't change
00:17:19
but yeah a lot of bad habits created
00:17:21
that have taken a long time and still
00:17:23
taking a long time to sort of work
00:17:25
through and come out the other side of
00:17:26
oh like what you want to talk about the
00:17:27
bad habits or no
00:17:29
uh I I I'm unsure it's it's so
00:17:33
interesting that you ask this now
00:17:34
because a lot of that has been
00:17:36
accentuated after my brother passed away
00:17:39
and sort of I've been in and out of all
00:17:42
of bad habits really struggled with
00:17:44
addiction my my whole sort of what do
00:17:47
you call them teenage into into young
00:17:49
adult years um and haven't really
00:17:52
discriminated on any of them around
00:17:54
drugs drinking gambling uh All the Above
00:18:01
um and sort of I think a lot of that
00:18:03
especially in those young years of
00:18:04
playing was masked because I was doing
00:18:06
that anyway socially everyone around me
00:18:07
was sort of doing it I'd always take it
00:18:09
to the to the extreme um but it was
00:18:11
isn't sort of since I've had kids and I
00:18:14
haven't been in situations where I
00:18:15
should be doing it and I'm still doing
00:18:17
some stuff um that it's really had to
00:18:20
make make me sit down and confront it
00:18:22
and be like this isn't normal um I've
00:18:25
got to get on top of it
00:18:27
m yeah thanks for sharing that by the by
00:18:30
the way just so we're clear like
00:18:32
um yeah this is a safe space here so
00:18:34
anything that you say that you w't cut
00:18:36
out before it goes out um we'll chop it
00:18:38
out so if anyone's listening to this and
00:18:40
they're hearing this um spill from me
00:18:41
now um you know that Jackson's good with
00:18:44
everything being left in um yeah it
00:18:46
takes takes a lot to admit that stuff um
00:18:49
and and um yeah yeah you have been
00:18:53
through a lot of adversity for how are
00:18:55
you now 30 yeah yeah you've been through
00:18:57
a lot of adversity and yeah we'll get
00:18:59
through that because I I ask um people
00:19:01
on the podcast that question like what's
00:19:02
their biggest adversity because no no
00:19:04
one gets to sort of um yeah know a bit
00:19:07
older than you like 40s or 50s without
00:19:08
going through some adversity and you're
00:19:09
30 and you've been through a [ __ ] ton
00:19:11
like um yeah it's it's pretty [ __ ]
00:19:14
actually yeah
00:19:16
no yeah [ __ ] yeah I wouldn't
00:19:20
wish some of the experiences I've had on
00:19:22
on my West enemy you know it's uh that's
00:19:25
been pretty brutal and started being
00:19:28
pretty brutal at a young age and it's
00:19:30
seemed to keep coming um yeah okay life
00:19:35
is funny yeah no okay we go if we if we
00:19:37
if I say anything or we go over anything
00:19:39
that I'm not comfortable with I'll cut
00:19:41
it out but yeah it is what it is okay
00:19:44
cuz um last year
00:19:47
2024 should have been should have like
00:19:50
on balance it looks like an epic [ __ ]
00:19:52
year right you you become a dad for the
00:19:54
third time um you have you won 100th
00:19:57
game for Wellington um you when the is
00:19:59
it still called NPC what's it called
00:20:02
yeah yeah you're on [ __ ] fire you're
00:20:04
playing rugby in France you got your
00:20:05
family family over there with you yeah
00:20:07
yeah everything's going good and then
00:20:09
your um your you know your brother um
00:20:11
passes away at the age of
00:20:13
25 which that's how old he was I 25
00:20:19
25 yeah a real Blindside a real
00:20:22
Blindside that and the things all the
00:20:24
things you mentioned there happened
00:20:25
after he passed away so it's just it's
00:20:27
just bizarre I yeah I did a another
00:20:30
podcast recently and I and I said
00:20:33
like obviously I played my 100th game
00:20:35
for Wellington we won the championship
00:20:38
but I wasn't not supposed to be there
00:20:40
like
00:20:41
I four months ago four months before
00:20:44
that like I was in France and we' just
00:20:47
been in the offseason I was i' just
00:20:49
driven back from Spain the night before
00:20:50
and you know I had no thoughts of
00:20:52
playing for Wellington at all probably
00:20:55
ever again because I I was doing the
00:20:56
overseas thing so yeah that that was
00:20:59
pretty confronting on on the on the week
00:21:01
of that final especially in my 100th
00:21:02
game everyone saying congrats you know
00:21:05
do this for your brother your brother
00:21:06
brought you home for this and I like far
00:21:08
out like thanks bro like I'd rather you
00:21:11
didn't you know yes so as was a real
00:21:15
bizar trying to trying
00:21:18
to give myself permission to be happy in
00:21:20
those moments where I was really feeling
00:21:22
[ __ ] you know the birth of my son and
00:21:25
which is one of the be the best fourth
00:21:28
equal best moment of my life and at the
00:21:30
same time there's this un undertone of
00:21:32
just [ __ ]
00:21:34
um so yeah it's pretty put of a mental
00:21:37
[ __ ] yeah this is um like a serious
00:21:39
moment of the podcast but what are the
00:21:40
four best moments of your life uh three
00:21:42
births of my kids on my wedding day oh
00:21:44
yeah oh really really none of the um
00:21:47
yeah none of the uh the sporting stuff
00:21:49
oh have you asked I'd have a list of top
00:21:51
10 top no no no of my best rugby moments
00:21:53
or my my best sporting moments but in
00:21:56
terms of what life's actually about
00:21:58
rugby is such a small part of it and it
00:22:00
it'll be done in the next 5 or six years
00:22:01
for me probably if I'm lucky or go that
00:22:04
long yeah um [ __ ] you know you're
00:22:06
winning it life if you can like
00:22:07
categorize like oh these are my top four
00:22:08
family moments these are my top four
00:22:10
rugby moments yeah pretty lucky in the
00:22:12
sense that my job gives me the
00:22:14
opportunity to to to do my dream and
00:22:16
what I've always wanted to do so that's
00:22:18
that's always going to be Peak
00:22:20
especially when things are going well um
00:22:24
but yeah in terms of the other four
00:22:26
moments that's a different kind of joy
00:22:27
and and love that you you don't
00:22:29
experience it unless you experience it
00:22:32
yeah okay well yeah since we're at this
00:22:34
part now
00:22:36
um I reckon we get back to we we'll get
00:22:38
back to Connor your brother because
00:22:40
that's that's fairly recent it was June
00:22:41
last year a yeah yeah um we'll start
00:22:45
with your mom uh the legendary sug
00:22:46
Garden Basher yeah so your parents um
00:22:49
separated in 2006 when you were 12 yeah
00:22:52
yeah what are your Recollections of that
00:22:54
I mean that's a big thing to go through
00:22:55
as a kid as well yeah that was pretty
00:22:56
hectic um
00:22:59
I remember when they told us we we're at
00:23:01
McDonald's they took us to McDonald's
00:23:03
and it seemed like a casual
00:23:06
conversation
00:23:07
um just Mom saying that dad's going to
00:23:10
go and live with his friend for a while
00:23:13
and so my brother and sister were very
00:23:14
young so I don't think they clocked
00:23:15
actually what that what that potentially
00:23:17
meant but I remember the car ride home I
00:23:20
went with my mom my brother and sister
00:23:21
went with my dad and I was like does
00:23:23
does this mean a divorce I don't I don't
00:23:25
know how I knew that that word or
00:23:27
obviously you told the playground about
00:23:29
stuff and she said uh I don't know but
00:23:33
potentially and I I was just I was so
00:23:35
gutted I was angry I said I was like
00:23:37
what the hell this is [ __ ] I didn't
00:23:39
you don't understand what's going on
00:23:40
between Mom and Dad but all I could
00:23:42
think was like why why would you like
00:23:44
this is [ __ ] and yeah I remember her
00:23:46
saying there you know this is it is
00:23:48
[ __ ] I wish this wasn't happening
00:23:50
type thing we were crying on the way
00:23:52
home
00:23:54
um and then yeah through the separation
00:23:58
it was yeah was pretty pretty tense
00:24:00
between Mom and Dad
00:24:03
um yeah some traumatic experiences I
00:24:06
think there for me that I haven't
00:24:08
clocked until I was older that we went
00:24:10
through um but yeah pretty tough it's
00:24:13
tough for anyone that goes through that
00:24:14
yes so you were 12 your brother was
00:24:16
seven yeah and your sister George
00:24:18
Georgia yeah she would have been 10 10
00:24:20
two years and two years apart so you're
00:24:22
in that sweet spot where you yeah you're
00:24:24
you're old enough to sort of I don't
00:24:26
know I suppose sense it a bit more or
00:24:27
feel a bit more what's going on I think
00:24:29
so and even I can tell I was
00:24:33
understanding more in the way that I can
00:24:34
remember it even in the way that we
00:24:36
speak about how before before Conor
00:24:39
passed away we speak about being able to
00:24:40
remember Mom he's saying like Jackson I
00:24:42
can't I can't remember much like we like
00:24:45
he was he would have been 8 years old um
00:24:48
he's saying like I'm losing my memories
00:24:50
like when you know through not talking
00:24:52
about it through just I can't remember
00:24:55
what I was doing when I was 7 years old
00:24:57
you know it's pretty hard so
00:24:59
I think in the sense that I can remember
00:25:01
a lot yeah or a lot more that that shows
00:25:04
how much you do actually take in once
00:25:06
you get to sort of pre-teen yeah and
00:25:10
your mom was um when your parents broke
00:25:12
up your mom was she already had leukemia
00:25:13
by that point right she had it for years
00:25:15
yeah she had she fought it for five
00:25:16
years yeah it sounds like she was a
00:25:19
tough woman oh so tough yeah so tough
00:25:22
like had a lot from you guys what's head
00:25:24
sorry had a lot from you guys uh I'm not
00:25:26
sure like in terms of like you oh it hit
00:25:29
her pain definitely yeah definely yeah
00:25:31
that's what I meant unless she couldn't
00:25:32
get off the couch you get off the couch
00:25:34
and do and do whatever needed doing um
00:25:37
yeah and I it's hard to imagine like the
00:25:40
a concept of time looking back but I'm
00:25:43
not sure I can't remember if she ever
00:25:44
had to go into hospital for long stunt
00:25:47
before she passed away um I knew she was
00:25:49
an outpatient and we'd have to go every
00:25:50
now and then and get chemo and pick up
00:25:53
her medicine and that but yeah outside
00:25:55
of that they're very good at acting like
00:25:59
she had a lot of energy for us because
00:26:00
that's all we ever saw was just mom
00:26:02
being
00:26:03
Mom Fu that's a proud woman right there
00:26:06
isn't it 100% yeah yeah especially when
00:26:08
I see the when I feel the amount of
00:26:10
energy it takes or I see what my wife
00:26:12
does for my kids and the amount of
00:26:14
energy it takes from her when you're
00:26:15
fully healthy exactly exactly Trucking
00:26:18
chemotherapy on top of that and
00:26:20
everything else that's going on you know
00:26:21
it's pretty phenomenal and I'm so
00:26:23
grateful she did she pushed through for
00:26:24
us cuz she gave us five years of of
00:26:27
memories that sh just put her feet up
00:26:29
and you know cop the sickness that we
00:26:31
wouldn't have had yeah and she even
00:26:33
wrote a kids book um which I only
00:26:36
learned about when I was doing the
00:26:37
research for this and um [ __ ] it's
00:26:39
heartbreaking the book's called who will
00:26:41
tuck me in and it's basically um there's
00:26:44
a line in the book um will we catch
00:26:47
cancer asked Jackson looking worried and
00:26:49
it's basically a book it's a like a help
00:26:51
help guide for parents that are going
00:26:53
through cancer to help their kids sort
00:26:55
of deal with it and it's written in the
00:26:57
first person so you guys are in the in
00:26:59
the book as characters yeah yeah have
00:27:01
you you must have a copy of it how do
00:27:03
you feel when you see it now oh pretty
00:27:05
proud very proud I remember at the time
00:27:09
we all the photo all the P illustrations
00:27:11
in there are from photos so the photos
00:27:13
that you see of us sitting in bed and
00:27:15
stuff we actually had to sit there and
00:27:16
and take a photo and I just remember
00:27:18
thinking it was so fun that we were
00:27:19
going to be in a book um but it's not
00:27:22
until they I did a interview about mom
00:27:26
for sky sport and on my I think my third
00:27:29
year of the hurricanes and they bought
00:27:30
me a copy of it and I got to reread it
00:27:33
oh man couldn't read it without crying
00:27:35
it's pretty it's pretty special what
00:27:37
she's been able to sort of portray and
00:27:40
put in there in regard to I don't know
00:27:43
putting it in a way that a child can
00:27:46
understand or sort of try and get a
00:27:47
concept of what cancer actually means
00:27:51
I'm sure it's been a like a helpful it
00:27:52
was sort of sponsored by I think the
00:27:54
Cancer Society so I'm sure it's been
00:27:55
like a really useful resource for you
00:27:57
know heaps of other is going through the
00:27:59
same thing it's obviously I'm I'm
00:28:01
imagining at the time um when she was
00:28:03
going through it she thought why isn't
00:28:04
there something like this she took it
00:28:06
upon yourself to do it yeah like I I
00:28:08
suppose that's exactly what it is um so
00:28:12
as a as a parent sort of learning how to
00:28:14
be a parent there's lots of things that
00:28:16
you're like man how do I have this
00:28:17
conversation with my kids about all
00:28:19
sorts of different subjects um let alone
00:28:22
the heavy hitter is like like long-term
00:28:24
illness yeah so yeah she was very
00:28:27
proactive and everything think she did
00:28:28
so she thought [ __ ] it there's not one
00:28:30
there let's make it but let's make one
00:28:32
there man that's cool so she so she end
00:28:34
up um losing the battle with lukemia in
00:28:37
2008 uh when she was 46 years old um you
00:28:40
were 14 um yeah what are your
00:28:43
Recollections of that
00:28:44
time uh oh not a lot to be honest I've
00:28:47
blocked a lot out for a long time and I
00:28:49
think that's really um inhibited my
00:28:52
ability to remember that period of time
00:28:54
but yeah it's like a coping mechanism
00:28:56
you think yeah big time um
00:28:58
um but yeah yeah pretty ruthless moment
00:29:02
that she she went into hospital for a
00:29:04
routine checkup well I think it was a
00:29:06
routine checkup um she went into a coma
00:29:10
and yeah they told her that they told my
00:29:13
nanny at the time before she passed away
00:29:15
that Mom wasn't going to wake up so she
00:29:16
had to the three of us went in um and
00:29:21
they told us that that yeah mom's asleep
00:29:23
and she's not going to wake up and yeah
00:29:26
that was I don't know
00:29:28
yeah was she on like life support at the
00:29:30
time or I don't know if it was life
00:29:32
support or just her body was just too
00:29:34
weak to to stay awake um and then I
00:29:37
think either that night or the night
00:29:39
after she passed
00:29:45
away yeah so you're 14 that's a sh it's
00:29:49
a lot to go through yeah yeah I just
00:29:51
remember feeling quite numb yeah I
00:29:53
remember our dad took us um for a long
00:29:56
walk for a couple hours just long man
00:29:58
explanat in the in the beach down in
00:30:00
Mana um and I ended up just lagging
00:30:03
behind everyone I just just lost in my
00:30:06
head I just I don't know I don't know I
00:30:09
can't remember I was probably trying to
00:30:11
gather my thoughts with no ability and
00:30:13
no maturity on on how to just like yeah
00:30:17
well you're at that that sort of puberty
00:30:19
age where there's you know there's your
00:30:21
hormones racing everywhere and so you
00:30:23
have these feelings but you just can't
00:30:24
sort of process them you know you just
00:30:26
don't have the um
00:30:29
I don't know that that adult ability to
00:30:30
process these things effectively well
00:30:32
it's just tools it's just life
00:30:33
experience it's just maturity it's
00:30:36
things that adults don't even get right
00:30:38
you know
00:30:39
and
00:30:41
yeah I go easy on my 13-year-old self
00:30:43
for the way that I handled it cuz I
00:30:45
didn't handle it well um you didn't but
00:30:48
I don't blame him in what way like how
00:30:50
why didn't you handle it well and what
00:30:51
could you have done better I just I my
00:30:55
big thought that I remember having in my
00:30:56
head I didn't talk much for one but I
00:30:59
didn't I didn't know how I didn't think
00:31:00
I I had to um my the big thought in my
00:31:03
head was I've got to stay strong so that
00:31:04
Georgia and Connor think it's going to
00:31:05
be okay um so I cried a lot around when
00:31:10
it initially happened but after that
00:31:11
just tried to put on a Really Brave face
00:31:13
Brave face um but to do that I had to
00:31:17
shut myself out and not think about much
00:31:18
so I remember my dad still talks about
00:31:21
it now just the way that I put on put in
00:31:24
headphones and just um blast the music
00:31:26
with my hood up for the first year
00:31:29
um yeah that's sort of how I handled it
00:31:31
just not not handling it
00:31:35
m um yeah and this is the time when you
00:31:39
in the the first 15 at school that we
00:31:41
were talking about so was that sort of
00:31:43
like part of the coping strategy just
00:31:44
like bury yourself in your sport yeah
00:31:46
Rugby's always been my outlet that's
00:31:49
probably the one place where I'm most
00:31:52
comfortable in myself and and in my
00:31:54
ability and the one place where I can
00:31:55
really lock in and just just think about
00:31:58
being in the present yeah um so that the
00:32:02
end of year n was when mom passed away
00:32:04
and I think another part which was
00:32:06
awesome
00:32:07
for my life and a really good part of my
00:32:10
life was the boarding house but it
00:32:12
also being amongst 13 and 14 year olds
00:32:15
wasn't a space where I can be sad or if
00:32:19
I was it's not like people are going to
00:32:21
come and have proper conversations with
00:32:23
me about that um yeah there's no
00:32:26
vulnerability at a board again no way
00:32:28
start crying get teased yeah oh your
00:32:31
your yeah if you show some vulnerability
00:32:33
it just be potentially be weaponized
00:32:35
against you yeah exactly next time
00:32:36
there's a flare up so so a lot of that
00:32:38
time was spent either just having fun as
00:32:41
per just blocking everything out playing
00:32:42
rugby and then every now and then
00:32:44
probably I'd say between year 10 and
00:32:46
year 12 there'd be like two two days a
00:32:48
year where something would happen and
00:32:50
then I'd just break down crying wouldn't
00:32:53
be able to leave the boarding house I'd
00:32:54
call Dad he'd come pick me up and we i'
00:32:56
just go home and cry for a day and then
00:32:58
go back to school the next day and sort
00:33:00
of repeat process
00:33:02
um so yeah that's how I handled it
00:33:09
didn't I suppose with the tools you had
00:33:11
you handled it the best way you possibly
00:33:13
could at the
00:33:14
time I don't know like for a 14y old I
00:33:17
feel like I feel like that's probably
00:33:19
fairly standard yeah well that's why I
00:33:21
go easy on on myself and and upon
00:33:23
reflection did did you was there like a
00:33:26
housem or your dad or any relatives that
00:33:29
tried to sort of um you know push you
00:33:31
into therapy or anything like that um I
00:33:34
can't remember specifically about being
00:33:35
pushed into therapy if someone had ever
00:33:37
tried to talk to me about it I would
00:33:38
have just said oh now I'm all good and
00:33:40
just all good the now all good bro yeah
00:33:42
now all good you know all good yeah um
00:33:46
cuz like you said I just didn't have the
00:33:47
tools I didn't understand that you need
00:33:49
to deal with things um I didn't
00:33:51
understand even if I knew that I
00:33:52
wouldn't have known how to
00:33:55
um so yeah that's a that's learned thing
00:33:58
over the years yeah and what about
00:33:59
lessons from I know you were very young
00:34:01
when she passed but lessons from her
00:34:02
that um have stuck with you to this
00:34:05
day
00:34:07
um a funny well a funny one that me and
00:34:11
my wife disagree on it no not disagree
00:34:13
on but have different philosophies is we
00:34:15
had we had these uh make your own
00:34:17
pottery plates that we would write on
00:34:21
and she wrote on one and said the injury
00:34:23
checklist is it bleeding is there a bone
00:34:25
sticking out is it noticeably dis swed
00:34:28
if no keep
00:34:29
playing so she was real tough and in
00:34:33
that sense like just a real goget her
00:34:37
um I think i' I learned more when I
00:34:40
reflect on the way that she was around
00:34:41
her friends like these days when I think
00:34:43
back she started a group with her close
00:34:45
friends called the black spots um which
00:34:47
was a combination of me and my brother
00:34:49
sister's par uh moms and she would put a
00:34:52
black spot in their letter box just with
00:34:54
a location and a time and they all had
00:34:56
in their letter box and they all had to
00:34:57
turn up and she'd make them do stuff
00:35:00
like break dancing classes play rugby go
00:35:02
jump off the WF just just real
00:35:05
connection pieces for her and her mates
00:35:07
and I know she really valued her friends
00:35:09
um and I think that's something that's
00:35:11
really inspiring and and something that
00:35:13
I um have taken a lot from over the last
00:35:17
few years can I just pause and say
00:35:19
you're you're really really good at
00:35:21
articulating this now like um I'm trying
00:35:25
to think when I was 30 I I I don't think
00:35:27
I would have um if I'd been through what
00:35:29
you had I don't think I'd be at a point
00:35:31
where I can articulate it the same way
00:35:32
you can it's really refreshing cool
00:35:35
you've done a lot of work I can tell
00:35:37
yeah it is a lot of work it's a lot
00:35:40
of understanding because a lot of when I
00:35:43
first started to try first started
00:35:45
trying to talk about this stuff lots of
00:35:47
lumps in throats lots of wanting to cry
00:35:51
and then trying to hold it back and then
00:35:54
and holding it back not wanting to talk
00:35:56
about it
00:35:58
but it was one of my dad's mates after
00:36:00
Conor passed away he he had also lost
00:36:03
someone close to him and he said man you
00:36:06
got to you got to hope that you cry a
00:36:07
lot you got to hope that that never
00:36:09
stops because it's just waves of love
00:36:10
and it's just the more that you cry the
00:36:13
more that you love the person so I'm not
00:36:15
scared to be sad about it
00:36:19
um and through just practice and
00:36:22
understanding that I need to talk about
00:36:24
it to keep the memories alive and um
00:36:28
you
00:36:29
know make my kids hear the stories um my
00:36:33
wife my wife never met my mom so make
00:36:35
sure that she can hear the stories
00:36:38
um but yeah it is learned and I and I
00:36:41
had to sort of force myself into it over
00:36:43
the last few years and still still
00:36:45
working on it because yeah botling it in
00:36:48
doesn't work for me no no it doesn't
00:36:50
work for anyone it's like
00:36:53
um yeah it's like um you go to the gym
00:36:57
you clothes and you stuff them in a bag
00:36:58
put them in the bird of a car it's just
00:37:00
going to get worse and worse and
00:37:01
eventually you're going to have to deal
00:37:02
with it one day right that's a great
00:37:04
analogy it's not going anywhere I had um
00:37:08
this guy's before your time but this guy
00:37:09
Mark Graham is's considered like one of
00:37:11
the hardest um rugby league players of
00:37:13
all time um and his um when he was
00:37:15
coaching the Warriors in the early 2000s
00:37:17
his son um ended up taking his own life
00:37:20
I had him on the podcast and I talked to
00:37:22
him about it and he goes he goes oh I'd
00:37:24
rather not talk about it he goes this is
00:37:25
probably not the correct way to deal
00:37:27
with it but I find if I think about it
00:37:28
and talk about it it hurts so I just try
00:37:30
not to talk about it I thought fair play
00:37:32
to you yeah yeah if that's your coping
00:37:35
strategy then that's fine but but it
00:37:38
hurts cuz he loved them yeah if there's
00:37:40
one thing to say to him it's a good
00:37:42
thing that it hurts yeah you know it
00:37:44
didn't hurt you probably didn't care
00:37:46
yeah when do you when do you miss her
00:37:48
most my mom uh big events weddings
00:37:53
funerals birthdays um
00:37:58
yeah anything around that
00:38:00
where like when I when I look at my
00:38:02
sister getting married and her mom was
00:38:03
there she's Lo she's lost her her dad so
00:38:05
she's feeling sad as well but you know
00:38:08
just thinking that my mom wasn't going
00:38:09
to be able to be at my wedding she would
00:38:11
won't meet my kids um big stuff like
00:38:15
that that you just you know you want to
00:38:16
share with your mom yeah MH the stuff I
00:38:19
love sharing with my dad it's like man I
00:38:21
wish I could share this with mom as
00:38:24
well yeah yeah it's almost like
00:38:26
survivors bu in away cuz you know you
00:38:28
know that the F that should have cuz how
00:38:30
much would mean to her being there 100%
00:38:34
100% man I'm real sorry for your loss no
00:38:37
appreciate that
00:38:40
um yeah let's talk about your wife for a
00:38:42
bit and then we'll um we'll get into
00:38:44
your bro so your wife Rosie when did
00:38:45
when what's the meet cute when did you
00:38:47
guys meet uh we met in 2018 I think it
00:38:50
was um was this in your party years yep
00:38:53
very much so is this I heard about a
00:38:54
flat yearning called um Bull Street who
00:38:56
told you about bull I heard it on
00:38:58
another podcast and uh it was like it's
00:39:00
Infamous for that you know the the um
00:39:03
the story you told on this podcast was
00:39:05
it was like a it's like a mini version
00:39:06
of the big day out or a festival so your
00:39:08
room was like the drum and bass room it
00:39:10
was like themed rooms yeah what the [ __ ]
00:39:13
you didn't get your bond back at the end
00:39:14
of the year did you no no way no way
00:39:16
that at the back end of about four years
00:39:18
of that sort of carry on so yeah some
00:39:20
great memories in there and one of them
00:39:22
was meeting my wife so right but so this
00:39:24
um this ball Street party flat is
00:39:26
running alongside um your your
00:39:28
professional rugby career yeah yeah so
00:39:30
the the the coaches hated bu Street cuz
00:39:33
it was right in the middle of of
00:39:34
Wellington so you could a f minute walk
00:39:36
to Courtney Place massive five bedrooms
00:39:39
with a big backyard so it was yeah it
00:39:41
was really easy to get to after games on
00:39:43
the way to town yeah it was good it was
00:39:45
good good memories goodies so yeah so
00:39:47
how did you meet your wife did she end
00:39:48
up at a party there or yeah so one of
00:39:50
her good mates um moved in just as a
00:39:53
flat mate and we whenever someone moved
00:39:55
in have a we housewarming for them
00:39:57
um I think it was a Monday night no it
00:39:59
would have been a weekend should have
00:40:01
been a weekend but anyway she she came
00:40:03
she came along um and yeah just got to
00:40:07
know got to know each other over that
00:40:08
night and over the coming weeks and then
00:40:11
she eventually moved into our flat as a
00:40:13
flat mate and one of one of the rules
00:40:15
was that I had to stop getting with her
00:40:16
if she was going to move in obviously
00:40:18
yeah nodded rules yes of course but I
00:40:23
didn't stop um yeah and then here we are
00:40:27
amazing you got pregnant quite quite
00:40:29
early on eh yeah yeah so we've been
00:40:31
seeing each other for about 5 months I
00:40:33
think and when she got
00:40:35
pregnant how was that was that
00:40:38
scary um you don't really know after 5
00:40:40
months do you or did you know I def
00:40:44
definitely think I knew um I wasn't
00:40:47
looking for anything serious at that
00:40:48
time but yeah it managed to stuck uh in
00:40:53
terms of finding out that we were
00:40:55
pregnant she was a lot more scared than
00:40:56
I was so she called me up texted me and
00:40:59
said we need to talk got in the car she
00:41:01
was crying I'm pregnant and I was a lot
00:41:04
calmer than she was I was like I'm very
00:41:06
I'm quite matter of fact um and I just
00:41:09
said we can afford this we we love each
00:41:13
other um if you want to keep it we'll be
00:41:16
sweet we'll we'll figure the rest out
00:41:18
and um she she always was going to keep
00:41:21
it and yeah I had no issues with
00:41:24
[Music]
00:41:25
that yeah and oh is this when you
00:41:28
started therapy I I heard that that she
00:41:30
sort of forced you guys to go to ka's
00:41:32
therapy yeah not not forced but I'm
00:41:34
trying to think when we
00:41:36
started mie was definitely mie was
00:41:38
definitely a
00:41:39
baby um but at the time it was just
00:41:42
because we were so young and we hadn't
00:41:44
been together for very long she was just
00:41:46
exploring options and ways to teach us
00:41:49
how to communicate better with each
00:41:50
other um through sort of how to deal
00:41:54
with life and being parents at such a
00:41:56
young age age she was only 21 at the
00:41:58
time um in a space where we were trying
00:42:01
to figure out our relationship like full
00:42:04
stop like we were only together for five
00:42:06
months um obviously before she got
00:42:08
pregnant so I I think it was Mal was
00:42:11
definitely born um when we started going
00:42:14
and yeah we've been going ever
00:42:16
since yeah where did she get that idea
00:42:18
from That's Crazy Wisdom like it's so I
00:42:21
don't say she forc you in in a in a bad
00:42:23
way it's just like um just wisdom Beyond
00:42:25
her years to think okay if we if we're
00:42:27
going to make a real goal of this and
00:42:28
make this work then we need you know
00:42:30
tools of communication like most people
00:42:32
would think of um like C counseling as
00:42:34
ambulance of the bottom of the cliff
00:42:35
sort of stuff um but to go there as a
00:42:38
tool to make the relationship healthy
00:42:41
before it gets unhealthy is um go excuse
00:42:43
me it's um some yeah did you get the
00:42:47
idea from like a family member is she
00:42:49
religious or no I'm not sure where she
00:42:51
got it it was it's definitely not like
00:42:53
we're a perfect relationship and and she
00:42:55
said right let's go to couples
00:42:56
counseling but yeah she was definitely
00:42:59
proactive in in the sense that there's
00:43:02
some stuff going on here that we don't
00:43:03
know have the ability to deal with
00:43:04
ourselves let's go and figure out how to
00:43:07
deal with it um before it becomes a real
00:43:09
issue um yeah and over the years there
00:43:12
have been some real issues that that
00:43:14
therapist has help helped us through and
00:43:16
helped us communicate through but yeah
00:43:19
know she's a wise woman already Rosy oh
00:43:22
relationships are tough and life's tough
00:43:24
and um you know you realize um you to
00:43:26
keep these things going like it does
00:43:28
require work yeah 100% 100% especially
00:43:31
when you're figuring out who you are
00:43:33
yourself as a as an individual and yeah
00:43:36
so you guys have got three now mchu your
00:43:38
youngest was born last year do you do
00:43:40
you still want seven
00:43:43
no a podcast I heard from you in 2020 I
00:43:46
think you said you wanted seven kids
00:43:48
yeah so when we first met we both said
00:43:50
seven just without having spoken to each
00:43:52
other that came down after we had one it
00:43:54
came down again after we had two so
00:43:57
um we hoping that the next one's a girl
00:44:00
because we have P promised Mary that we'
00:44:01
try for a sister um yeah of our four a
00:44:05
boy then conversations all need to be
00:44:07
had oh so you're definitely going back
00:44:09
for round four yeah yeah oh yeah I speak
00:44:11
for myself yeah I'm pretty sure Rosy's
00:44:13
came I'm pretty sure yeah no no we
00:44:17
definitely came for four so she's at
00:44:18
home with like a what like a
00:44:20
six-month-old at the moment yeah I'm
00:44:22
just gone five yeah five sure it's the
00:44:23
last that got him on right right now ah
00:44:26
who knows yeah um get them out the way
00:44:29
yeah there was a real special moment
00:44:30
where for that 100th game for Wellington
00:44:32
that we're talking about before you
00:44:33
walked out onto the field with um Rosie
00:44:35
and your three kids yeah yeah yeah
00:44:39
that's Peak life for me you know that's
00:44:41
uh the team that I've loved the most for
00:44:43
a long time it's uh anaz an achievement
00:44:47
I'm so proud of walking out with the
00:44:50
four achievements I'm I'm most proud of
00:44:51
as well
00:44:52
so yeah that's cool I'm I'm glad through
00:44:56
a lot of life perspective I was able to
00:44:58
just be in that moment real presently
00:45:00
and and soak that in cuz there's not
00:45:02
many people that get to do that
00:45:06
um yeah it's cool to think back on man
00:45:09
and so cool with media these days how
00:45:11
accessible that's going to be forever um
00:45:15
with much as an adult and he can look
00:45:16
back at we baby him going out and Mary
00:45:19
and Milo too that's that's pretty cool
00:45:21
yeah yeah you're so right there'll be
00:45:23
video on YouTube or if you Google it
00:45:25
it's going to be there somewhere forever
00:45:27
yeah it's really cool so the the
00:45:29
counseling you guys got like what what
00:45:31
did you get from that like did you find
00:45:32
it like an eye opening experience did
00:45:34
you did did you realize oh maybe I could
00:45:36
use this um you know in a different
00:45:38
capacity to help with you know
00:45:39
processing mum and um yeah there was a
00:45:43
lot of sort of indiv individual
00:45:44
reflection within it in terms of
00:45:46
figuring out and understanding the ways
00:45:49
that I communicate or don't communicate
00:45:52
um and understanding why that is the
00:45:53
case um understanding that
00:45:58
the way that I see the world or believe
00:46:00
things should be handled isn't how
00:46:02
everyone handles it especially Rosie um
00:46:05
and just giving the tools sort of
00:46:07
to communicate calmly and try and see
00:46:10
things from each other's
00:46:12
perspectives were you not that good at
00:46:14
communicating do you think or just a
00:46:16
different communication style um
00:46:18
definitely not good at commun both a
00:46:21
different communication style and not
00:46:22
very good at it um yeah so yeah my
00:46:26
ability to be open and honest uh and
00:46:29
vulnerable has taken a long time and
00:46:31
still not perfect but it's always been
00:46:33
hard for me
00:46:35
um but yeah working on it and that was
00:46:37
definitely one of the things that needed
00:46:39
the most
00:46:40
work mate I'm I'm I'm jealous of like
00:46:43
where you're at and the work you've done
00:46:44
like I'm I'm 52 and I reckon uh I was
00:46:47
probably 45 when I started you know
00:46:49
doing the Deep work um so you you've got
00:46:52
a massive jump on me and I think a lot
00:46:54
of young guys as well I think the stuff
00:46:56
that you're talking about um you your
00:46:58
early 20s I think that's probably fairly
00:47:00
typical right you know just the the poor
00:47:03
communication style or you know not
00:47:05
being good at vulnerability and stuff
00:47:06
like that yeah I think so accentuated by
00:47:08
the fact that we were going to have a
00:47:09
kid um and that we were committing to be
00:47:12
together yeah um definitely meant that
00:47:15
had to try and sort that stuff earlier
00:47:19
um than I was definitely planning to so
00:47:21
yeah yeah it was important and um you
00:47:24
guys seem like a tight unit so you've
00:47:25
you've um done some stints playing rugby
00:47:28
in Japan and France and um a lot a lot
00:47:32
of people a lot of rugby players that do
00:47:33
that they'll go over there themselves
00:47:35
for a season or whatever and leave the
00:47:36
family behind but you traveled as a unit
00:47:39
yeah how is how was Japan like were you
00:47:41
living in an apartment or yeah we shoe
00:47:43
box two bed two-bedroom apartment with a
00:47:45
um little tatami room so yeah that was
00:47:47
that was hectic with a one and twoyear
00:47:49
old um yeah I can't imagine but we we
00:47:52
were always going to move around
00:47:53
together at that stage of the kids lives
00:47:56
cuz it was easy to move move them um I
00:47:57
think now that Marley's starting school
00:48:00
and Mary will start school um next year
00:48:03
it becomes a lot harder to uproot and
00:48:05
move so easily um so yeah that that was
00:48:09
that was very tough very tough on Rosie
00:48:11
moving overseas but um it was definitely
00:48:13
the right decision given the fact
00:48:16
that soon we won't be able to move the
00:48:19
kids that easily we don't want to yeah
00:48:22
cuz that could feel real isolating for
00:48:23
her as well like being in a country like
00:48:25
Japan where you can't speak the language
00:48:26
um I went over there a few years ago the
00:48:28
public transport system it's really hard
00:48:30
to navigate had my translator app up
00:48:32
trying to yeah that was going crazy um
00:48:35
so with homesickness and everything else
00:48:37
and you know in a home with a 2-year-old
00:48:39
and one-year-old like you know it could
00:48:41
create real tension in a relationship if
00:48:43
the relationship wasn't tight oh
00:48:45
definitely definitely and I think
00:48:48
especially with with young kids it's
00:48:50
hard to socialize you got to plan
00:48:52
everything around the around the babies
00:48:54
um we got lucky both in Japan and France
00:48:56
said the the group of foreigners there
00:48:58
were were awesome
00:49:00
um yeah Rosie got tight with a couple
00:49:03
couple of girls in both spots that
00:49:05
really help look after each other um but
00:49:08
yeah just in general it's it's very hard
00:49:09
it's so easy as a as a player to go into
00:49:12
to move over there I go to work not
00:49:14
looking after the kids don't have to
00:49:15
plan anything for them I go and meet a
00:49:18
squad full of friends um I have a
00:49:21
purpose every day I go and train hard we
00:49:23
got a game on the weekend like I'm
00:49:24
looking forward to that that's what I
00:49:25
want to do um so yeah definitely a lot
00:49:28
of sacrifice that I never I never sort
00:49:31
of appreciated and imagined would have
00:49:33
to be happening from my partner until we
00:49:36
lived it is is the money good for those
00:49:38
things those stints overseas if you're
00:49:40
like a Super Rugby level player in New
00:49:42
Zealand and you go over there yeah is it
00:49:44
yeah there's defin especially sort of
00:49:45
the motivation for doing it really I I'd
00:49:47
say yeah I'd say so I'd say so the the
00:49:49
money in Japan and France is a lot
00:49:51
better than it is here
00:49:53
um but yeah after my two years I sort of
00:49:56
that into way out what is money worths
00:49:59
versus time away from home and being
00:50:01
away from the place you love and people
00:50:03
you love Yeah cuz the homesickness thing
00:50:05
must play um a real part yeah because
00:50:08
you were in France last year when you
00:50:10
heard the news about the brother your
00:50:12
brother Connor and that's when you you
00:50:14
like you abandoned your contract early
00:50:15
and came home yeah so there there was
00:50:17
some contract contractual stuff that was
00:50:19
going on there anyway um but I was still
00:50:21
signed to stay there for another year at
00:50:23
least um and yeah got the we were
00:50:27
hopping in the car to go somewhere got
00:50:29
the call from my sister heard the news
00:50:32
within 2 hours we were on our way to
00:50:34
Bordeaux um with our bags just ready to
00:50:37
fly to to London to meet my sister and
00:50:39
then back here so you know the dry was
00:50:42
still on I'm pretty sure and everything
00:50:44
was just as is so oh so it was your
00:50:46
sister that gave you the news yeah she
00:50:48
called me she she was in London at the
00:50:50
time yeah yeah she she lives there with
00:50:52
a with her fiance um I'd had a couple of
00:50:55
calls from my cousin Aaron major you
00:50:57
spoke about before um and then yeah
00:51:00
wasn't uh Georgia called Rosie and got a
00:51:03
hold of it and said put Jackson
00:51:05
on and she broke the news to me strong
00:51:08
girl strong
00:51:12
woman yeah that's um yeah she she's
00:51:15
younger than you as well not that I mean
00:51:17
even yeah regardless it's it's it's a
00:51:20
call that no siblings should ever have
00:51:21
to have to make can you remember the
00:51:24
call yeah um
00:51:27
yeah well it was very short before I
00:51:29
just the I was obviously overwhelmed but
00:51:31
were you confused you think it was a
00:51:33
joke or well when she
00:51:38
said the tone in her voice I could tell
00:51:40
something was wrong I was playing over I
00:51:42
never thought it was Connor I never ever
00:51:44
would have thought it was Connor she
00:51:45
said and I don't know how to tell you
00:51:46
this but Connor passed away last night
00:51:49
and I just remember being like do you
00:51:51
mean our Connor like our brother Connor
00:51:53
and she was like yeah and I was just
00:51:55
yeah I was on the floor after
00:51:57
that she was obviously and tears on the
00:51:59
other end and just sort of held the
00:52:01
phone by my ear I couldn't say anything
00:52:03
or anything like that
00:52:05
um and the rest is a real blur the rest
00:52:08
is a real blur yeah the next yeah 24 48
00:52:12
100 hours or whatever what do they look
00:52:14
like just throw some [ __ ] in a bag and
00:52:16
book a flight yeah so we we just Ro
00:52:19
Rosie and George's fiance Luke were
00:52:22
superheroes in the sense that they just
00:52:24
handled the logistics um
00:52:28
which yeah so grateful for um they but
00:52:30
yeah they were just straight on booking
00:52:32
flights I'm planning it all out um
00:52:35
quickly had to find a ride to bordeau
00:52:36
which one of the my teammates over there
00:52:38
did um and they had just put everything
00:52:42
in the bags that we thought we'd need um
00:52:46
we didn't know if we were going back to
00:52:47
France or not and then just it got to
00:52:51
London was the first step because
00:52:52
Georgia was there so got got to got to
00:52:54
there saw her and then the next day we
00:52:55
flew home m
00:52:57
but yeah real blur real blur the flight
00:52:59
home was we obviously booked it really
00:53:01
late last minute so we were we were all
00:53:03
split up and I remember it was just me
00:53:04
in a empty seat and an old lady and I
00:53:07
just remember looking out the window and
00:53:08
she must have just thought I was mad
00:53:09
just crying the whole time or just you
00:53:12
know in and out of not even watching a
00:53:15
movie or anything just staring at the
00:53:16
seat staring out the window
00:53:18
intermittently bursting into tears
00:53:21
just yeah yeah it was just such a
00:53:27
you just come switch back to reality and
00:53:29
be like why am I on this plane or it's
00:53:30
because your brothers passed away and
00:53:32
it's like far out what are we actually
00:53:34
flying back to right now it's just like
00:53:36
didn't want it to be
00:53:39
real yes that was um yeah 17th of June
00:53:42
last year um and the media reported at
00:53:46
the time is it being a medical
00:53:48
event what was that like a heart thing
00:53:50
or uh suspected heart thing still still
00:53:53
not 100% sure they're doing a lot of
00:53:56
research search at the moment
00:53:58
um
00:54:00
around like the coroners the coroners
00:54:02
thing came back and it was the only
00:54:04
thing that was wrong or out of the
00:54:06
ordinary was a slightly enlarged heart
00:54:09
but that's not unheard of or it's pretty
00:54:11
normal for athletes to have a slightly
00:54:13
en larged heart just musle based on the
00:54:15
occupation yeah um so at the moment it's
00:54:19
still unsolved there's some blood tests
00:54:21
as blood got sent to Switzerland I think
00:54:23
it is um that'll come back with a lot of
00:54:26
genetic uh information to see if there
00:54:29
was anything in the genes um all of us
00:54:31
are getting tested as well to see if
00:54:33
there was if we have something in our
00:54:34
jeans as well that might might have been
00:54:38
but yeah no real Clarity that's
00:54:40
terrifying bizar his last post on
00:54:42
Instagram was just like a basically
00:54:43
tribute post saying how much how much he
00:54:45
enjoyed playing for the Highlanders last
00:54:47
year um yeah and then to think yeah a
00:54:50
couple of couple of weeks later like a
00:54:51
fit and healthy young man in his 20s can
00:54:53
be gone it's um yeah it's crazy
00:54:54
purifying it is it is crazy
00:54:56
what was your last conversation or text
00:54:58
exchange with him um two two notable
00:55:02
notable facetimes I had with
00:55:04
them um the first one was him his
00:55:07
interview piss up with the Highlanders
00:55:08
and they were all were in their Club
00:55:10
jerseys as I remember I couldn't hear
00:55:11
them cuz they were allow but um he just
00:55:14
had the he just had the phone up sort of
00:55:15
going like this with a drink just sort
00:55:17
of like just being wasted and I was like
00:55:19
love you bro looks like you're having
00:55:20
fun um and then the last time I spoke to
00:55:23
him was after our team's end of year and
00:55:26
I'd parked my car on the other side of
00:55:28
town was about 15 minute walk away and I
00:55:30
was walking back there and um just
00:55:32
facetimed him CU I was bored and yeah
00:55:35
and we were and we were just talking and
00:55:36
he just sorted his deal with um his
00:55:38
Japanese Club um which he was excited
00:55:41
about we sort of talking about what what
00:55:43
his thoughts were behind it and he's
00:55:45
yeah potential to go over there for five
00:55:47
years and potentially become Japan
00:55:49
eligible um and all this stuff um just a
00:55:53
real casual conversation yeah it's
00:55:55
pretty
00:55:56
like obviously his messages are pinned
00:55:58
at the top of my text
00:56:00
and it's just so how nonchalant how last
00:56:03
messages were it's just it's just crazy
00:56:05
to to think that that was that was it
00:56:07
well you don't know the significance of
00:56:09
it do you you no way of knowing yeah and
00:56:12
what was um yeah tell me about Connor
00:56:14
and in particular like your relationship
00:56:15
with
00:56:16
him Connor was awesome in terms of and
00:56:19
our relation quite a big age Gap with
00:56:22
yeah I was going to say it developed
00:56:23
over the years finished as best friends
00:56:26
um but here that age group at that age
00:56:29
Gap you think about 5 years between like
00:56:31
between a 10-year-old and a 5-year-old
00:56:32
5-year-olds are bloody annoying so a lot
00:56:35
a lot of the time gr up was me giving
00:56:37
him hidings for being annoying um oh
00:56:40
there's a power IM balance there you
00:56:42
bully yeah well he he was a he was a
00:56:45
little [ __ ] he was a little [ __ ] he he
00:56:47
always cheated at games he always super
00:56:49
competitive wanted to win everything so
00:56:51
I had to bring him back down and play by
00:56:53
the rules it's your duty as an older
00:56:55
brother exactly but um I didn't really
00:56:58
start appreciating him him as a brother
00:57:00
until I went to boarding school um so I
00:57:03
only saw him for two days a week which
00:57:05
was on the weekends um so in small doses
00:57:07
I I really grew to be able to deal with
00:57:10
that better and and and understand him
00:57:13
more and um and love him more I guess um
00:57:17
and then just into adulthood I just
00:57:20
became genuine peers
00:57:22
just he'd be he'd be the one that I talk
00:57:24
to for advice or let him know what's
00:57:26
going on or for yeah for
00:57:30
anything
00:57:32
yeah I he did a podcast um and he said
00:57:36
you were his Idol which I thought was
00:57:37
really cool yeah that's the reason why I
00:57:39
still wasn't able to listen to that
00:57:41
podcast yeah
00:57:44
um cuz yeah I never even listened to
00:57:46
that while while he was alive yeah this
00:57:48
is a podcast by the way called um uh
00:57:50
beyond the surface yeah which you've
00:57:52
been a guest on as well yeah well the
00:57:53
reason I went on is cuz Connor did it
00:57:55
and I was like that's a Time Capture
00:57:56
that I want to be able to give the
00:57:58
people that I love um something that I'm
00:58:00
grateful grateful for I messaged Noah
00:58:03
about a month after con of passed away
00:58:05
just saying thanks for I'm so grateful
00:58:07
that this is here and it's always going
00:58:08
to be
00:58:10
here but yeah to to actually hear that
00:58:13
something that that I took for granted I
00:58:15
just I'm just big brother you know
00:58:18
um but when he's talking about running
00:58:20
out for his debut as the Lions and from
00:58:22
his perspective and getting to run out
00:58:24
behind me as his Idol and just just
00:58:26
saying how cool that was where at the
00:58:28
same time that's one of my best memories
00:58:29
and I'm thinking I think he was in front
00:58:31
of me and I'm thinking this is awesome
00:58:33
my baby brother we doing this at the
00:58:34
same time so just to know that we were
00:58:37
we were Aline there like yeah that's a
00:58:40
pretty cool thing to hear um pretty cool
00:58:43
thing to feel was it more enjoyable
00:58:46
playing um with him or playing against
00:58:47
him oh we we had fun we we had fun
00:58:50
regardless but I I definitely enjoyed
00:58:53
playing with him there no worry of him
00:58:54
running around me
00:58:57
what would he say if he was here to
00:58:58
defend himself hey would he be calling
00:59:00
[ __ ] on that no I don't know I don't
00:59:03
know we we had fun regardless he he
00:59:06
didn't take life too seriously all kind
00:59:07
of um yeah we were playing against each
00:59:11
other um hurricanes vers Highlanders and
00:59:13
we we ended up marking each other we
00:59:15
never got to actually the ball didn't
00:59:17
come our way but he was saying mismatch
00:59:19
mismatch over here mismatch over here
00:59:22
and I was giving him [ __ ] back but I
00:59:24
know it was actually a mismatch if he
00:59:25
got the ball
00:59:27
run around the outside CU I've had um
00:59:30
yeah one of the Crusaders coaches um
00:59:32
James Marshall I've had him on the
00:59:33
podcast and he talked about when he was
00:59:35
playing against his brother um and he
00:59:37
said it was [ __ ] tense that week it
00:59:38
was I think it was the NPC final maybe
00:59:40
Wellington taneki and um they didn't
00:59:43
talk that week and it was awkward for
00:59:44
their parents and everyone oh yeah
00:59:46
sounds like no we'd be more jokey
00:59:48
leading up but bus this time on the
00:59:50
field like we were definitely going to
00:59:52
compete and try win um but yeah I'd
00:59:55
always give him [ __ ]
00:59:56
uh sort of we'll be trying to figure out
00:59:59
when our offseasons will be and if the
01:00:02
um if the finals are in June I'll be
01:00:03
like oh yeah you guys will be off by May
01:00:06
don't worry you can start [ __ ]
01:00:07
holidays by May Conor don't worry what
01:00:09
an
01:00:10
[ __ ] oh that's cool that's really
01:00:12
special now how's his um his yeah he's a
01:00:15
dad of uh twins how's his partner and
01:00:18
his kids doing um his kids are beautiful
01:00:22
um yeah his baby pictures look just like
01:00:26
their baby pictures um that's another
01:00:28
relationship that as a family we're
01:00:29
working on at the moment um not not
01:00:32
always easy to sort of navigate that
01:00:34
with their mom um and her new partner
01:00:38
just sort of trying to figure out how we
01:00:39
can best I don't know fulfill the wishes
01:00:42
of of Connor um to them um has been has
01:00:45
been tricky at times um but we're hoping
01:00:48
that it gets um to a to a really good
01:00:51
place where we can do what we said after
01:00:54
you passed away and be there for the the
01:00:56
as much as much as we
01:00:57
can yeah it's just it's a shitty thing
01:01:00
for everyone to navigate isn't it it's
01:01:02
tough oh do it did he have the twins
01:01:05
without telling you so you
01:01:08
didn't so what was that so so got his
01:01:11
partner pregnant and what did did he not
01:01:13
tell anyone no he hadn't told anyone so
01:01:15
so he wasn't actually he's not with he
01:01:17
wasn't with the mom oh okay so I don't
01:01:19
know if that was a part of why it didn't
01:01:20
tell us but yeah nine months didn't tell
01:01:24
anyone and it was just before for um
01:01:26
just after Marley had been born so it
01:01:28
was going to be my first Father's Day
01:01:30
and we were just hanging out downstairs
01:01:31
at my house and I I said we just had a
01:01:33
quiet moment and I was like man I can't
01:01:35
believe like I'm a dad and this is going
01:01:36
to be my first Father's Day and he goes
01:01:38
me too and I was like what the hell he's
01:01:41
got someone
01:01:42
pregnant not completely like
01:01:45
unreasonable and I was like what do you
01:01:47
mean is someone pregnant she yeah she
01:01:49
was and I was like what do you mean is
01:01:51
the baby already born he goes yeah they
01:01:52
are and I was like oh my goodness so
01:01:55
just keep snowb
01:01:56
first of all yeah why um yeah did you
01:01:59
get to the bottom of that like why did
01:02:00
he not feel like he could I'm not
01:02:03
sure we had a couple of Ys about it
01:02:06
um but yeah no I've never really got I I
01:02:09
don't know if he just didn't want to I
01:02:12
don't know admit to himself that he was
01:02:13
going to be a dad cuz I know that he he
01:02:15
struggled with that especially early on
01:02:16
in the in the pregnancy cuz he wasn't
01:02:19
chasing kids at that point
01:02:21
um and then probably just a bit of I not
01:02:25
not shame but once you haven't talked
01:02:27
about it how do you start talking about
01:02:28
it until and then I guess you had no
01:02:31
choice once they were born well yeah it
01:02:33
gets to the point of no return like I've
01:02:35
LIF it too late to sort of bring it up
01:02:37
now yeah oh no they might they might
01:02:39
judge me because it's been five months
01:02:40
so I judged them at nine months that's
01:02:43
great there's um this photo I found
01:02:44
online like um an iconic photo actually
01:02:47
of yeah you guys there's a sequence of
01:02:49
photos was that was that rilly Shield or
01:02:51
no there was EMP final down in Christ
01:02:52
Church yeah so you guys won yep we we
01:02:55
just won down down there man and found
01:02:57
the camera found the cameraman and said
01:03:00
this will be one for the ages no to be
01:03:02
honest I didn't I didn't think anything
01:03:04
about it but since since he's passed
01:03:07
away and looking at looking at that
01:03:09
photo more and more and there's the one
01:03:10
where he's pouring a beer into the
01:03:11
trophy tongue out oh it's
01:03:14
just how amazing is it that that me and
01:03:17
my brother were able to do that together
01:03:20
that's so
01:03:21
cool yeah how do yeah yeah so makes you
01:03:24
happy when you see it now yeah
01:03:26
um yeah how how long was it before you
01:03:29
could find happiness in it in moments
01:03:31
like that and not just sadness uh oh
01:03:34
straight away
01:03:36
M but
01:03:38
yeah but it's just the Spectrum
01:03:40
sometimes it makes me feel sad that
01:03:42
it'll never happen again sometimes it
01:03:43
makes me feel super grateful that it
01:03:45
ever did happen
01:03:48
um and just that yeah just understanding
01:03:52
that either way is fine like it is what
01:03:54
it is
01:03:56
um yeah cuz like I say the sadness about
01:03:59
it is cuz I loved him the happiness
01:04:01
about it is cuz I loved him all the all
01:04:02
the feelings I feel I feel about it it's
01:04:04
just cuz I loved him and I'm so proud of
01:04:07
that photo in particular but just that
01:04:09
he was my
01:04:10
brother yeah [ __ ] you can see how
01:04:13
proud he was of you as well yeah yeah
01:04:16
how how long was it before you could
01:04:17
talk about him like this without you
01:04:19
know getting
01:04:20
emotional uh so it hasn't been that long
01:04:22
like eight months now yeah eight months
01:04:25
um
01:04:26
um I'm not sure I think I I took a lot
01:04:29
of learning of how I didn't talk about
01:04:32
Mom and how that's affected me over the
01:04:34
years and now I don't want to handle it
01:04:37
like that again so as much as possible I
01:04:41
I want to be able to talk talk about
01:04:42
them is it's hard and to I don't know
01:04:46
socially how do you start that
01:04:47
conversation I know people are probably
01:04:49
wondering the same thing like can they
01:04:51
talk about Connor
01:04:53
but yeah it is what it is I don't
01:04:56
yeah I don't really know how to answer
01:04:58
that cuz sometimes I still get sad too
01:05:00
sad to talk about him but yeah I think
01:05:03
what you said before was um was I I had
01:05:06
a guy on the podcast called Mark Longley
01:05:08
and his daughter got murdered by her
01:05:09
partner um in the UK in 2011 and um so
01:05:14
similar experience to you except um he
01:05:16
was flying in the other direction but so
01:05:18
he got the phone call he said your
01:05:19
daughter's dead you need to come over he
01:05:21
said the whole plane right over he was
01:05:22
like I don't believe it until I see it
01:05:24
with my eyes then went to the morg and
01:05:26
he goes he saw her there and he still
01:05:27
didn't believe it um he thought it was
01:05:31
her playing a joke perhaps then touched
01:05:32
her her skin and it was freezing cold
01:05:34
and he knew then it was for real um but
01:05:37
talking about his grief he said um he's
01:05:40
recognized over the years that um he
01:05:42
wants to feel sad about it because if he
01:05:44
doesn't feel sad it means you know the
01:05:46
love wasn't big enough or whatever
01:05:48
similar thing to what you said before
01:05:50
yeah and that's probably that's pretty
01:05:51
hard thing to sort of understand and I I
01:05:55
suppose learn until you're actually in a
01:05:58
place where you're so sad that that that
01:06:00
those sort of experiences are happening
01:06:01
and then to be there and then also to
01:06:04
find that level of understanding is is
01:06:06
hard and it's it's taken a few loved
01:06:08
ones passing away for for me to for me
01:06:10
to understand that yeah have you um been
01:06:13
seeing a therapist to deal with the
01:06:15
Conor stuff um I saw a few counselors um
01:06:19
down in Wellington I I didn't get much
01:06:21
out of them to be fair um a lot of sort
01:06:25
of cookie cutter stuff they will say
01:06:26
that think think nice thoughts and if
01:06:29
you're feeling angry get in the gym and
01:06:31
think the thoughts while you're getting
01:06:32
rid of them I I don't I don't get too
01:06:34
much out of that
01:06:37
cuz I'm not worried about the sadness
01:06:39
and the grief I I've started seeing a
01:06:41
psychiatrist to sort of understand the
01:06:43
the bad habits that I get into when I'm
01:06:45
in those dates and the actual physical
01:06:48
response that I have um and dealing with
01:06:51
stuff and how I can not do that um
01:06:56
but yeah I know I know some level some
01:06:58
form of professional help is definitely
01:07:00
necessary it's just finding the right
01:07:02
one um and the psychiatrist I just met
01:07:04
him for the first time last week he
01:07:06
seems really cool so I'm seeing him
01:07:07
again
01:07:08
tomorrow yeah we had to like juggle this
01:07:11
um uh podcast timing around um because
01:07:15
yeah because it was supposed to be at
01:07:16
the same time as your appointment with
01:07:18
your um psychiatrist um and I fully
01:07:21
respect um that yeah there's there's no
01:07:23
way that you know I was going to say no
01:07:25
don't go to the cancel that cancel that
01:07:27
this is need to get on the podcast oh no
01:07:29
no no no yeah we could have we could
01:07:31
have rescheduled this another time
01:07:33
completely like it just didn't it didn't
01:07:34
matter you know I when um Bella who um
01:07:37
booked you as a guest said you had a
01:07:39
therapy session that was like oh [ __ ]
01:07:41
this is cool I got full respect for that
01:07:45
um
01:07:46
yeah yeah so much you've been
01:07:49
through what what's the um therapist
01:07:51
said in terms of um you you sort of
01:07:53
touched earlier upon the bad the bad
01:07:55
habits that you lean into when you're
01:07:56
dealing with this sort of adversity
01:07:58
what's some of the tips to avoid that
01:08:00
that other people could use potentially
01:08:02
um oh so so last week was very much just
01:08:04
like a preliminary meeting with him we
01:08:07
did lots of tests lots of um sort of
01:08:10
questionnaires to sort of actually dive
01:08:12
deeper into the way that I think and the
01:08:14
way my brain works um and from that he
01:08:18
said oh there's a there's a couple of
01:08:20
things that might be there that are I
01:08:23
don't know making it hard for you to
01:08:25
stare away from those things got things
01:08:27
like ADHD um potential bipolar which is
01:08:30
a which is a huge scary word but he
01:08:32
didn't seem to think so but I'm doing
01:08:33
more tests for that tomorrow um and then
01:08:37
from there he'll put he'll put a plan in
01:08:39
place for me um which is cool it was the
01:08:42
first time anyone's really dived into
01:08:44
how did you act when you were a kid how
01:08:46
did you act after your mom like what
01:08:48
sort of thoughts were you having during
01:08:50
all those times to what you can remember
01:08:52
and what what's happening now for you
01:08:53
and sort of putting to putting the
01:08:56
pieces together to sort of figure out
01:08:58
what's actually goes on um in different
01:09:02
stages of this grief and in this
01:09:05
life yeah you I mean we've only been
01:09:07
chatting for like an hour and a bit but
01:09:09
um yeah you don't seem to have any sort
01:09:10
of walls up he like um yeah you you're
01:09:14
really good at talking about this
01:09:15
vulnerability stuff yeah well I have to
01:09:19
be uh I couldn't I'm trying really hard
01:09:22
in life when ask questions just to be
01:09:24
honest m
01:09:26
um obviously I'm getting a lot of asked
01:09:28
a lot of questions here so it was a lot
01:09:30
of honesty but it's it's good practice
01:09:32
for when it happens in general do you do
01:09:36
you get media training and stuff in
01:09:37
rugby uh we did I did get a little bit
01:09:39
of media training like sort of like what
01:09:41
we talking about before but it's it's
01:09:42
changed over the years um yeah we talked
01:09:45
about this off the year before we went
01:09:46
in so they um yeah at the stud of you
01:09:48
you've been around for so long at the
01:09:49
study your career it was like he cheers
01:09:53
oh no yeah how do you feel about that
01:09:54
being like one of the old guys now in
01:09:56
the it's a privilege right yeah I feel
01:09:59
bad for giving all the old guys [ __ ]
01:10:00
when I was younger cuz the older I get
01:10:02
the more I realize H doesn't care it
01:10:04
creeps up doesn't matter creeps up so
01:10:06
fast as well but no it's cool it's cool
01:10:08
to be in a place of experience and and
01:10:10
maturity where you can where the game is
01:10:13
more than just playing it's about
01:10:14
developing people um developing
01:10:16
connections within the group and playing
01:10:18
a p and all of that's fun um but yeah
01:10:20
the the media training has has changed a
01:10:22
lot I they used to get a a guy in and
01:10:25
it's say sweet would practice questions
01:10:27
that were asked and we'd have to try and
01:10:29
get it back to a particular topic that
01:10:31
the team was focusing on that week so it
01:10:34
might have been I don't know work rate
01:10:36
for example and the question would be
01:10:38
something far outside that and like okay
01:10:40
how do we draw this back to way that we
01:10:41
want to think about it yeah it was felt
01:10:44
like it was like um say as much as you
01:10:46
can but also say as little as you can at
01:10:48
the same exactly whereas this day and
01:10:51
age it's more be yourself say what you
01:10:53
want don't be a dick mm like don't do
01:10:56
anything that's going to put the the
01:10:57
team in a bad light but at the same time
01:11:00
just just be a person because that's
01:11:02
what everyone knows just people yeah and
01:11:04
I feel like your your captain um and
01:11:06
actually a teammate for many years Ari
01:11:08
svia he's he's really good um yeah their
01:11:11
honesty and vulnerability piece as well
01:11:13
yeah big time there's been a couple of
01:11:14
players him and him and TJ probably are
01:11:16
the two that that come to mind just
01:11:19
around just being unapologetically
01:11:21
themselves um in in any scenario what
01:11:24
you see on the media is what how they
01:11:26
are um off off Media as well
01:11:32
so but and what about for you biggest
01:11:34
lessons through these um like tragedies
01:11:36
that you've been
01:11:37
through
01:11:39
um the importance of
01:11:43
talking but I suppose the the step
01:11:45
before that is just sort of the
01:11:47
understanding that it's okay to feel
01:11:49
however you feel and that understand
01:11:51
that it's okay to feel [ __ ] and be in a
01:11:53
bad place and um that as long as you
01:11:57
trust the people you love and you talk
01:11:59
to them about it they they they're going
01:12:01
to be there to support you and lean on
01:12:03
and help you through it um as much as
01:12:06
you need them so I think those are
01:12:08
probably the two big
01:12:09
ones it's hard though because you don't
01:12:11
want to burden people eh like yeah yeah
01:12:14
there's that aspect as well but see that
01:12:16
I always the that that the fear of that
01:12:18
is always minimized once you say it out
01:12:19
loud and they're like well I don't care
01:12:22
like this is all good um and then it's
01:12:26
probably just a cycle because if it's
01:12:27
too much for them they'll say that back
01:12:29
and we got to go find someone together
01:12:30
to to do it so yeah yeah um yeah what
01:12:34
about your inner voice what's that like
01:12:37
when you when you're in the car or on
01:12:39
your air airplane flight going somewhere
01:12:41
you're just alone with your own thoughts
01:12:43
what's that like you quite kind to
01:12:45
yourself what um on and off I'm trying
01:12:48
to be kinder
01:12:51
uh what a confronting question far out
01:12:54
sorry you've got some confronting once
01:12:56
hey yeah no just it's probably not
01:12:57
something you bring it back to the game
01:12:59
plan I probably need to yeah work
01:13:04
harder David NE who you've had on here
01:13:07
he yeah Big Dave he is our mental skills
01:13:10
coach at the moment he says 60 to 80,000
01:13:12
thoughts we have a day and the majority
01:13:13
of them are negative um I suppose I'm on
01:13:17
the journey that he talks about and sort
01:13:19
of being aware of that and when those
01:13:21
thoughts are having are happening
01:13:23
flipping it and turning it into a
01:13:26
positive or when you have one negative
01:13:28
thought turning it into three positive
01:13:29
thoughts um and sort of mantras
01:13:34
um so yeah
01:13:37
without having actual thought about that
01:13:39
that's hard that's pretty hard to answer
01:13:41
I'd say for the majority of the time
01:13:42
it's pretty negative um but also aware
01:13:47
of that and trying to be more positive
01:13:48
with
01:13:50
it it's hard I'm I'm uh yeah I'm much
01:13:53
the same a lot of high performance
01:13:55
performers I've had on the podcast are
01:13:56
exactly the same like they they're
01:13:57
actual bullies to themselves you know
01:14:00
part of it you think well maybe it gives
01:14:02
you that edge um where you you
01:14:05
continuously striving for better but
01:14:07
then it's just it's not healthy like you
01:14:09
can go on the internet there's plenty of
01:14:10
people that will talk [ __ ] about you you
01:14:12
don't need to do it yourself I think
01:14:13
it's probably necessary as a
01:14:14
professional athlete to be hard on
01:14:16
yourself because you're not going to
01:14:17
accept what's not good enough yeah but
01:14:20
then there's the there's the I don't
01:14:23
know the line where you say I've made a
01:14:25
mistake here that wasn't good enough to
01:14:28
I made a mistake here that means you're
01:14:29
a [ __ ]
01:14:30
[Music]
01:14:32
hunt just I'm not cutting that
01:14:36
out it's a great combination of words by
01:14:38
the way that was it's not used often
01:14:40
enough yeah no it's not well it is in
01:14:42
our environment probably no but s of
01:14:45
sort of that line that's the unnecessary
01:14:47
line where when you're talking bad on
01:14:49
your character because of because of a
01:14:52
negative action you know that's probably
01:14:53
unnecessary yeah what about your best
01:14:55
and worst habits what do you think they
01:14:57
would
01:14:57
be
01:15:00
um you just grinned there at that one
01:15:02
your instant reaction no just just the
01:15:04
journey I'm on and my my and my
01:15:06
Rehabilitation at the moment my family
01:15:08
would be able to answer my bad habits um
01:15:11
I saw you having a vape in the car
01:15:12
before yeah now i' yeah well I'm sober
01:15:15
trying to be Sober Sober at the moment
01:15:16
so the Vapes are The Vape helps what
01:15:19
checky Vape never hurt um yeah you're
01:15:21
from a um yeah like a fine team of
01:15:24
smokers from in the day wasn't like M
01:15:26
and Jerry when they well I never got to
01:15:28
play with them but I've seen plenty of
01:15:30
photos of JC with a with a in his mouth
01:15:32
and arm wrestling people in the pub I I
01:15:35
think he was an outlier in the sense
01:15:36
that he could do that and then play the
01:15:37
next day and smash people I think even
01:15:40
this might be before your dad's area
01:15:41
Grant Fox the famous number 10 I believe
01:15:43
he was a Dary smoker yeah similar I
01:15:45
think the same area I think I think
01:15:47
Grant Fox took my dad's spot on the All
01:15:48
Blacks actually but um he had so many
01:15:52
stories of the halftime cigarettes back
01:15:53
then which is vaping sort of becoming
01:15:56
that thing it's weird like if you saw a
01:15:58
cigarette in a around the team
01:15:59
environment now you'd be like what the
01:16:01
hell's going on but there's Vapes LIF
01:16:02
and right yeah what's your go to flavor
01:16:04
is that a sweet one I'm only a new at
01:16:06
the moment I'm rocking pineapple coconut
01:16:09
but I'm I'm only I'm only a recent Vapor
01:16:12
you can see what's dangerous for kids eh
01:16:14
like pineapple coconut that sounds
01:16:16
delicious yeah I'm nervous for my
01:16:17
youngest brother and sister they're 10
01:16:18
and 12 at the moment and yeah got to
01:16:21
keep an eye on that I think oh yeah cuz
01:16:23
you got a blended family he so so how
01:16:25
many how many siblings all up so there's
01:16:27
you Conor and Georgia three and and then
01:16:30
your dad has my dad met his partner Bell
01:16:33
recently separated but that she has
01:16:35
three kids Mia Toby and Tilly and then
01:16:38
they had two kids together B and Eva so
01:16:40
there's eight of us do you do you feel
01:16:42
like a a brother or an uncle oh brother
01:16:45
yeah do you yeah definitely brother yeah
01:16:46
yeah it's such a big age Gap yeah it is
01:16:48
a big age Gap but yeah I'm not sure why
01:16:51
that probably could happen in some
01:16:52
instances but yeah that's little bro
01:16:55
that's so cool yeah I love the family
01:16:57
Dynamic um oh yeah yes best and worst
01:17:00
habits what
01:17:01
yeah um I won't say my worst
01:17:04
habits I don't even know what my best
01:17:06
habits would
01:17:08
be definitely the place where I'm most
01:17:10
consistent as my Rugby that's that's
01:17:12
probably the the the one area
01:17:15
where I'm confident and accurate and so
01:17:19
just my habits around planning my week
01:17:22
and making sure that I took off all the
01:17:23
boxes make sure I play well yeah and and
01:17:26
to be um at the level that you've been
01:17:28
at for as long as what you have that
01:17:30
requires a certain amount of
01:17:32
discipline yeah I think so especially
01:17:35
around your body it's a number one tool
01:17:38
um and I haven't been I've never been
01:17:40
the most shredded or anything but I've
01:17:43
always been able to stay on the park for
01:17:45
for for long stunts and and touch wood
01:17:49
um Miss I've only had a couple of major
01:17:51
injuries but yeah I think I've learned
01:17:55
especially as I've got older the the
01:17:56
more you can look after your body and
01:17:57
the more you're available to play the
01:17:59
more the more valuable you are and the
01:18:01
longer that you'll be able to do it
01:18:03
what's the wh if that keeps you up at
01:18:06
night oh the what
01:18:08
if it hasn't been a w if keeping me up
01:18:10
at night that conversation that I that
01:18:12
phone call that Georgia gave me those
01:18:14
the words of saying that that kep me up
01:18:16
at night for and still does every now
01:18:18
and then if if that gets ringing in my
01:18:20
ear I definitely need to put on some
01:18:21
Netflix or or a podcast or something to
01:18:24
make sure I'm I'm not thinking about
01:18:25
that
01:18:28
um not sure about a what
01:18:30
if yeah how is how is your an example of
01:18:33
what
01:18:34
if I don't know it can be anything it's
01:18:37
all oh this isn't my podcast flip it
01:18:40
that give me time to think I want to
01:18:42
yeah yeah actually I should um yeah I I
01:18:46
don't know I like to Spring these on on
01:18:47
people but I maybe I should give them to
01:18:49
people in advance they got time to think
01:18:50
about it yeah um but it's nice to get
01:18:52
People's Natural reaction nice
01:18:54
definitely better it's just hard to
01:18:56
think of on the spot yeah how yeah how
01:18:58
is your sister that's um [ __ ] that's
01:19:00
that's a phone call that no one deserves
01:19:02
to make hey oh 100% 100% I haven't
01:19:05
actually right no probably not probably
01:19:07
not we we catch up and yeah her Life's
01:19:10
good she's engaged over in London um she
01:19:12
owns a house over there but I know she
01:19:15
wishes she was closer to home um yeah
01:19:19
she'll be feeling really homesick over
01:19:20
there I wish she was closer to home too
01:19:23
um she's getting married next January
01:19:24
which is
01:19:25
exciting um but yeah like all of our
01:19:29
siblings man it's just we're all pretty
01:19:33
[ __ ] as underlying like all all answers
01:19:36
that we give to anything you can just
01:19:37
assume there's a level of just
01:19:40
[ __ ] but there's some there's something
01:19:43
really endearing and likable about
01:19:44
admitting that because I feel like
01:19:46
everyone it's pretty relatable
01:19:47
everyone's got something no but every
01:19:49
everyone also wears wears a mask like
01:19:51
everyone has like a Persona that they
01:19:53
want the world to see and it's like um
01:19:55
the thing I like about the podcast is um
01:19:57
it's kind of like the greatest hits and
01:19:59
greatest shits of someone's life really
01:20:00
you know cuz life is not all A Greatest
01:20:02
Hits record is it you know yeah everyone
01:20:05
has some adversity and um a lot of
01:20:07
people don't want to share that stuff
01:20:08
cuz it's like it's it's [ __ ] it's
01:20:09
crunchy it's embarrassing at
01:20:12
times it is but I don't think we're
01:20:15
embarrassed by it now it's like I said
01:20:17
my step siblings they lost their dad
01:20:18
when they were young we lost our mom now
01:20:20
we've lost our brother it's like it's
01:20:22
not laughable but it is it's like [ __ ]
01:20:25
man what else have you got like what is
01:20:27
life and then oh that doesn't even
01:20:29
include like people around us friends
01:20:31
and and extended family that are passed
01:20:32
away too like we been through a fair bit
01:20:35
and now it's just like all right
01:20:36
everyone admit that that we're [ __ ] and
01:20:39
that's all right but let's work together
01:20:41
to make sure that on top of that we
01:20:43
still are happy in what we're doing and
01:20:45
living fulfilling
01:20:47
lives it's all you can do eh just try
01:20:49
and be a bit better every day yeah we
01:20:51
can try to um when was the last time you
01:20:54
cried
01:20:55
last time I cried uh within the last
01:20:58
week I think yeah about your Bri yeah uh
01:21:04
I'm trying to than Sonia O'Neal the PDM
01:21:06
for the Highlanders she messaged me just
01:21:09
asking permission from the family to
01:21:12
sort of Honor Connor in their first home
01:21:14
game um for the Highlanders um and she
01:21:17
sort of just gave a little rundown of
01:21:18
what they might do um and she's like let
01:21:21
us know if you have any thoughts around
01:21:22
I was like you can definitely do it the
01:21:23
one thing I think if there's going to be
01:21:25
a minutes of a moment of silence could
01:21:27
you please change that to a moment of be
01:21:28
as loud as you can um because that was
01:21:31
Connor he just wanted noise and wanted
01:21:33
the zoo to be going nut so i s i I sent
01:21:36
her that and I sort of put it down and I
01:21:37
sort of started imagining that happening
01:21:40
and how cool that would be yeah and then
01:21:43
it's SC happening now which is it's just
01:21:46
such a cool thought such a [ __ ] thought
01:21:47
to have to have but imagining that
01:21:50
moment is is pretty powerful that's
01:21:52
going to be Goosebumps
01:21:55
yeah I hope they do that they haven't
01:21:57
confirmed or all but also with the denan
01:22:00
crowd I think that's easier than a
01:22:01
minute silence 100% get that be to be
01:22:06
quiet for a minute [ __ ] that would be
01:22:07
cool would you be there for it would you
01:22:09
be able to be there for it uh I'd have
01:22:11
to look at the schedule I think when I
01:22:12
looked at it I wouldn't be able to but I
01:22:14
know my brother Toby will definitely fly
01:22:16
down for it um would you would you like
01:22:18
would you want to be there for it or
01:22:19
would it be too hard oh no I'd I'd love
01:22:21
to be there for that that's cool and
01:22:23
that sort of big event in in honor of
01:22:26
him isn't going to happen forever like
01:22:27
that's obviously it's very fresh and
01:22:29
that's the first time so it's like as
01:22:31
much as possible have those cool
01:22:33
[Music]
01:22:35
memories is there a mistake that you
01:22:37
wish you could go back and correct oh
01:22:40
plenty
01:22:42
plenty how long
01:22:46
n you got a game this weekend soorry n
01:22:50
there is a lot there's a lot um I I
01:22:53
won't get into it but I've put a lot of
01:22:55
pressure on my on my wife over the years
01:22:57
through through the way that I through
01:22:58
the way that I've acted in many
01:22:59
different facets of life um that I wish
01:23:02
I could take back just cuz there's a lot
01:23:04
of stuff I've also done that's hared
01:23:06
harmed myself uh not physically but um
01:23:10
you know knowing that I've hurt the
01:23:12
person that I love the most you know
01:23:13
it's it's pretty [ __ ] harming yourself
01:23:15
like in in terms of like drugs and
01:23:17
alcohol yeah drugs alcohol bad decisions
01:23:20
with people and money and all sorts but
01:23:25
I tell masking masking your feelings
01:23:27
with um like drugs and alcohol over the
01:23:29
years and no one would begrudge you that
01:23:32
I don't think 100% And it's not hasn't
01:23:36
been so recently that I've been
01:23:37
completely open and honest with my
01:23:39
family about it as well and it was like
01:23:42
a weight lifted off my chest when I did
01:23:44
open up to them about everything that
01:23:45
was going on CU they were like well we
01:23:47
knew something was going on you're an
01:23:48
idiot for not telling us early and and I
01:23:50
agree with them
01:23:53
um but yeah it's
01:23:55
just yeah when you're in a certain frame
01:23:57
of mind you're in a certain frame of
01:23:58
mind
01:23:59
and your brain uh talks you into things
01:24:03
and justifies a lot of things that don't
01:24:05
even make
01:24:06
[Music]
01:24:07
sense yeah like in terms of in terms of
01:24:10
like you're pushing pushing Rosie away
01:24:13
or acting in a way that could put that
01:24:14
relationship at harm like do you is it
01:24:17
like a self- sabotage thing or I'm not
01:24:19
sure I I hope I can get into that more
01:24:22
with my psychiatrist um because it it
01:24:25
has been like intermittent throughout
01:24:28
our whole
01:24:29
relationship um yeah and something I
01:24:32
haven't been able to do like
01:24:34
consistently at all through the last six
01:24:36
years
01:24:37
so I'm still trying to get a handle on
01:24:39
that and uh and more of an understanding
01:24:41
on that so that I can have the tools to
01:24:43
be
01:24:45
consistent you know I I think
01:24:48
um the only rugby player I've had on
01:24:50
that's been as honest as what you've
01:24:52
been today is probably Zack Gilford um
01:24:54
but and there you go no but his his like
01:24:58
his dirty laundry was well and truly
01:25:00
public like had' been dragged through
01:25:01
the papers dragged through the court
01:25:03
system you're you're surrendering this
01:25:05
information and like it's it's it's not
01:25:08
out there like you don't have to um and
01:25:10
I think there's a like a there's a huge
01:25:12
amount of courage in that yeah it's also
01:25:14
not I'm not hiding it it's just if I
01:25:16
don't have to talk about it to people
01:25:18
why why would I but have my close
01:25:21
friends ask me I'll tell them um it's
01:25:24
it's also all very fresh sort of the
01:25:26
openness um sort of this side of New
01:25:29
Years uh so yeah it's a journey
01:25:32
beginning um what are you most afraid of
01:25:36
oh losing another family
01:25:38
member
01:25:40
yeah yeah that's
01:25:43
a like the call that Georgia had to make
01:25:46
was I had a pretty confronting thought
01:25:48
to know that there's seven of us left
01:25:50
and one of us is going to have to be
01:25:52
there for all of our funerals at some
01:25:53
point was just not something that you
01:25:55
want to think about as reality
01:25:57
[Music]
01:25:58
and I hope it's me but I'm the oldest so
01:26:01
I also hope it's not but
01:26:05
yeah yeah I mean well death is a reality
01:26:08
we're all going to have to face but um
01:26:10
yeah yeah hope the next one would be you
01:26:13
know would be your dad like it's this
01:26:14
the correct order of things you know
01:26:16
it's
01:26:17
yeah I can't way way down the line it's
01:26:21
yeah because we're yeah it's funny like
01:26:24
even though I was young and it was I
01:26:26
lost my
01:26:27
mom there's a level of Peace when it's
01:26:30
an illness or old age that you can they
01:26:32
actually they're in a better place now
01:26:34
with what people say and there's some
01:26:36
level of Truth to that I think but with
01:26:39
Connor he's 25 and healthy and looking
01:26:41
forward to being a dad for the rest of
01:26:44
his life and you know excited about what
01:26:47
was coming up and then just gone it's
01:26:50
it's cruel it's unfair his life was just
01:26:52
beginning exactly yeah um what about
01:26:54
future goals like where do you see
01:26:56
yourself at you know 35 40 50 um pay for
01:27:01
mortgage and have four or five healthy
01:27:05
kids married happily married yeah is
01:27:08
four to five the magic number now what's
01:27:10
sort of car do you need for that Ford
01:27:12
territory my wife told me I wanted a
01:27:14
Toyota a
01:27:16
steamer a people mover yeah that's so we
01:27:18
we family waging that's that's what we
01:27:21
had yeah um but now my my goal for the
01:27:24
short term I I haven't thought about too
01:27:27
much the important part after France was
01:27:29
just to get home um regardless of what
01:27:31
was happening with rugby we're going to
01:27:33
be in aiming to stay in country um and
01:27:36
Wellington and Moana have given me the
01:27:37
opportunity to do that while still
01:27:39
playing the game I love so that is a
01:27:42
goal achieved um I hope I can extend
01:27:45
with both of them so that that's um set
01:27:48
in stone for the next couple of years um
01:27:51
but in terms of physical goals not much
01:27:53
I just want to get to a place of inner
01:27:57
peace and happiness and calm
01:28:02
really I feel like you're on the right
01:28:04
track I hope so and it's going to be up
01:28:07
and down but yeah yeah and with your
01:28:10
brother it's still very fresh yeah yeah
01:28:13
six months or seven months whatever yeah
01:28:15
how's your
01:28:18
um yeah your sister's wedding how's like
01:28:20
how's that going to be oh that' be
01:28:22
extremely hard Mia uh uh um the next
01:28:25
oldest in the line she got married in
01:28:27
thailander recently just in November um
01:28:30
so we're all over there for that and
01:28:32
that was awesome that [ __ ] um and that's
01:28:36
going to be every event that's going to
01:28:38
be every
01:28:40
event because we loved
01:28:42
them yeah which with great love comes
01:28:45
yeah great
01:28:48
loss um are there three words that you
01:28:51
know your wife or family would use to
01:28:53
describe you
01:28:56
interesting
01:28:58
[Laughter]
01:29:00
ertic um loyal yeah that's a good one um
01:29:05
and loving
01:29:07
yeah it's quite funny like yeah I've
01:29:09
only met you today but the um the the
01:29:13
guy I see in front of me like it's he's
01:29:15
way more together than the person that
01:29:17
you describe yourself as well yeah well
01:29:19
yeah that's who I'm trying to be and
01:29:21
trying to be
01:29:22
consistently um
01:29:25
and and literally the person that I am
01:29:26
now if someone met who knew me when I
01:29:28
was 20 met me today they wouldn't they
01:29:30
wouldn't recognize me because there's
01:29:31
there's been a lot of change through
01:29:34
love life and loss um and still on a
01:29:38
journey to to be the best version of me
01:29:40
but comfortable in the in the direction
01:29:43
I'm going well I'm 52 and I feel like
01:29:46
I'm I'm still on the same journey and I
01:29:48
feel like you you can never reach that
01:29:49
Apex yeah no well there would never be
01:29:52
an apex I don't think cuz there's always
01:29:53
going to be like life that gets thrown
01:29:55
at you that throws you off course
01:29:56
potentially but and every every day is
01:29:59
an opportunity to to do better and be
01:30:01
better as well yeah yeah that's it well
01:30:04
um are you proud of yourself I am yeah I
01:30:08
know there's a lot of work to be done
01:30:09
but you know I've I've achieved a lot in
01:30:13
my career I've achieved a lot in my life
01:30:15
as a as with my kids and my wife
01:30:19
um you know I've I've I've been a puller
01:30:22
for my family and some and some really
01:30:23
hard times
01:30:25
um I've got great relationship with all
01:30:27
my
01:30:29
siblings uh whenever I meet up with my
01:30:31
extended family great relationship there
01:30:33
and I'm extremely proud of that cuz
01:30:36
that's all that really matters at the
01:30:37
end of the
01:30:38
day oh you're a good bastard um yes so
01:30:42
Super Rugby Moana Pacifica this year I
01:30:44
looked at the um the odds online before
01:30:46
you came in today you guys paying $101
01:30:49
to win good time to jump
01:30:51
on not the not the house yeah
01:30:54
um yeah just like a cheeky tenner yeah
01:30:57
why not yeah yeah yeah how how you I
01:30:59
mean it looks like it's a good team on
01:31:01
paper right yeah no it's definitely the
01:31:03
strongest Squad I think that that Moana
01:31:05
has put together since they since they
01:31:07
were created four years ago um and
01:31:10
obviously I can't judge because this has
01:31:12
just been my first year but based on
01:31:14
what some of the the the veterans of the
01:31:16
team have said is they say we're Head
01:31:18
and Shoulders ahead of where they were
01:31:19
at this time of the year and previous
01:31:21
years so yeah there's a lot lot of um
01:31:23
posi positive optimism around the group
01:31:26
um and that's just the rugby side of
01:31:28
things the the cultural side and the off
01:31:30
field stuff is is awesome it's such a
01:31:32
fun team to be a part of full of awesome
01:31:34
dudes yeah is that yeah well I think
01:31:37
just the the Polynesian culture in
01:31:38
general is just so welcoming and warm
01:31:40
and fun um full of hyena laughs and
01:31:43
mocking people and lots of CH so that
01:31:46
that that was never going to be an
01:31:47
issue's never going to be an issue
01:31:49
that's that's a given that's DNA yeah
01:31:51
I've I've heard you um in interviews
01:31:53
before refer to yourself as a plastic
01:31:56
yeah yeah do you still feel like a
01:31:58
plastic oh yeah very much so but uh also
01:32:02
an open plastic I'm not I'm not trying
01:32:05
to stare away from it you know this is
01:32:07
an awesome opportunity for me to get in
01:32:09
touch with a side of my culture that I
01:32:11
never was that I never have been yeah
01:32:13
how would you define
01:32:15
plastic oh I don't even know I think you
01:32:18
said you're a plastic but your dad's
01:32:19
even more of a plastic or something
01:32:21
there was the qu something no I'm not
01:32:22
sure they always just called himself
01:32:24
a he could cuz he played for some more
01:32:27
but couldn't speak the language
01:32:29
obviously a l of L of skin tone uh that
01:32:33
hav haven't ever lived the cultural way
01:32:36
that that s and tongin and and all poan
01:32:39
people do so yeah I would I've never
01:32:42
been asked to Define that I think
01:32:43
everyone just knows what it
01:32:45
is um yeah I'd K me on the podcast and I
01:32:49
get the feeling he he's got like a
01:32:50
almost a sense of guilt and a bit of
01:32:52
Shame for not knowing how to speak the
01:32:53
language
01:32:54
yeah it's like he was he was like born
01:32:56
and raised in tood like you know I was
01:32:58
like you got to give yourself a free
01:32:59
pass on that yeah that's something that
01:33:01
TJ P always spoke with his to moldy he
01:33:04
was always like ashamed almost that he
01:33:07
couldn't speak the language and that
01:33:08
stopped him from from learning until he
01:33:10
brushed that to the side and just just
01:33:12
went for it and it's all right if you
01:33:13
didn't grow up in it you didn't grow up
01:33:15
in it but it's never too too late to
01:33:17
embrace it yeah um what would your mom
01:33:20
make of the the man sitting in front of
01:33:21
me today I I think she'd be overall
01:33:24
pretty happy she'd be a she'd be a happy
01:33:26
Nanny Sue yeah she'd be super proud of
01:33:29
of of my kids and she'd love Rosie
01:33:34
um
01:33:36
yeah yeah and your your daughter's got
01:33:39
her her name is her middle name yeah
01:33:42
yeah Mary Sue yeah I was lucky she was a
01:33:45
girl cuz she was going to be called Mary
01:33:46
after Bob Mary regardless of she whether
01:33:48
she was a boy or a girl but we had
01:33:50
different middle names so when I caught
01:33:52
Mary I thought she was a girl could go
01:33:54
up and tell Ros it's Mal Sue to let her
01:33:56
know as a girl that's cool um yeah youve
01:34:00
you've come close to getting emotional a
01:34:02
couple of times here
01:34:04
um are things like this exhausting uh
01:34:08
like like tonight or probably car on the
01:34:10
drive home you feel drained yeah
01:34:11
probably yeah right now probably a bit
01:34:14
of adrenaline from being in the
01:34:16
situation that I'm in and iste but
01:34:20
um yeah I have some I won't put the
01:34:22
radio on all the way I'm just just sort
01:34:24
with my thoughts and get ready to do
01:34:26
some work when I get home probably B
01:34:28
time yeah yeah yeah game face on eh the
01:34:32
fun begins um all right with Jackson
01:34:34
Garden bash it's been really good to
01:34:36
meet you today I'm so oh I me to ask you
01:34:38
what's the um what's the Milo tattoo
01:34:39
last question oh so my son's name is
01:34:41
Milo right that's a picture of my dad
01:34:42
when he was
01:34:45
playing wow that's I just got my tattoo
01:34:48
out us to stitch those
01:34:51
together awesome oh I love it yeah I I
01:34:55
get so the same no just because it's the
01:34:56
same logo as the the drink yeah yeah
01:34:58
well the Milo is not named after
01:35:00
anything but that's the only thing that
01:35:01
I can think of a reference and that was
01:35:03
a cool way to do it but the amount of
01:35:04
people that on a night out or something
01:35:06
was go man I love your tattooo like I
01:35:08
love the drink as
01:35:10
well yeah oh that's awesome all right
01:35:13
Jackson Garden bash thanks so much best
01:35:15
of luck this year for Moana Pacifica and
01:35:18
um I mean that's just sport beyond that
01:35:20
just um your best of luck for whatever
01:35:22
the future brings and Hope for you and
01:35:24
your fan out it's just nothing but good
01:35:25
stuff thank you n thanks for me
