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Tame, welcome to my podcast. >> Yes, good to be here, my friend. >> It's wonderful to meet you. Um I I feel
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like I know you. Um but this is the first time we've actually met. >> Oh, yes. Yes. And
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>> you've got this beautiful new book out called Mana, which is um God. Well, I
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mean, it's beautiful. >> Thank you. So what's what's happened to you like
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over the last I don't know 15 years because it feels like you've gone from
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being this sort of perceived villain to being like a national treasure what's
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happened is this is this >> I don't know you know I guess is a it happened for for everybody for all of us
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time change not just for me I think this um change of attitude change of the way we see each other
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and we hear each other and yeah definitely they there they there they there have been a shift I noticed
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that over the years for me and uh >> and also for me letting letting letting
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go of those different layers you know over a period of time you know and sometimes we we cannot continue to be in
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that kind of situation not holding on to things you know and uh just breathe >> I
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So, is what you're saying it's a combination of things like you've you've
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you've softened as you got older. Um, but I feel like the the me I feel like
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the media the mainstream media perceives you differently now. You're not public
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enemy number one. >> I think the mainstream media sort of understands um the point you were trying
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to get across over your entire life really and >> sympathetic. I mean I I in many other
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ways my my thinking hasn't changed. I still remain and still remain to be how
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I always been in my thinking that hasn't changed. Uh I think that I um definitely
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some other change for me really not not really focus on responding to the um to the dumb ass sort of kind of
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conversation but more kind of focus more about um where I am today. >> So um yeah and I think that through art
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is made that change for me. uh is a new platform for me and I've been on that
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there for a few years now and uh that's a big help. >> Are you happy? >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
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>> Yeah. Have you always been happy? >> Yeah, I think I I was happy.
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>> I mean even in the last 50 years in those early days and um it was an interesting period of time. It was
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exciting. It was funny. It was fun. >> And stiring [ __ ] >> Yeah, I've got that here. Yeah, you've
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called yourself a [ __ ] stirer um over the years. Are you still a [ __ ] stirer?
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>> Oh, I probably still am in many ways [laughter] in in the way be be more creative about how to u
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present your your views and >> other than shooting the New Zealand flag. M although
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ex I've seen that video. We we're going to get into this in more detail later
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on, but I've seen that video god I don't know maybe a hundred times, maybe a
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thousand times. Like every time they talk about Tamiti on the news, they they play that.
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>> And reading this book, I understand it more now. Like you it was it was art. It
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was an artistic stunt. >> Yes. Definitely. And um I mean I wouldn't do that in the middle of the
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Queen Street or anything was in in our own space >> uh on the Amalai uh and that's always
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have been the place of performance and we uh we can do that and as um in the area of Tapu a [snorts] sacred place and
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uh yeah and um yeah we do that actually our our our tikana and our and our culture always
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open for that. The art there is a place there to be able for us to do those things
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that we need to express ourself >> whether to [snorts] uh show your buttocks or shoot a flag and um without
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uh any judgments. I mean, people kind of freak out that it just happened the the
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television media camera was around there during that period of time. >> So, they built something about something
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that is normal in in their culture. >> What was what was the um occasion where
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you showed your buttocks? Thankfully, I couldn't find that on the internet. >> Oh, yeah. That was the the
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um when uh we um when the Wangi tribunal second hearing in uh in their district.
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And so we decided to um after two two or three day conversation with uh hundreds
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other uh within the nation and we all decided to take this uh poi [snorts] outside the
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Amarai and take it to the confiscation line. which was about a couple of kilometers away from u from the
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confiscation line and you you've seen that on the book itself on the uh uh the
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confiscation line. So we we took it down there and um [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. So we
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did a performance the burning of the cars. Uh we have to um I guess that um [snorts] it's a it's just a reminder to
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remind oursel what happened 100 years before that. And uh it's a is a way that
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we can uh able to um uh demonstrate our um you know our feelings and how Tui felt about what happened
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150 years ago and uh was a a moment that we uh we needed to do that. >> So there was
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>> even um I saw this online uh one of your own sons has called you a troublemaker.
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Do do you regret any of any of your [ __ ] stirring over the years or No, >> no. No, not at all. No apologies for all
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those moments. >> Not at all. And uh Yep. >> My kids were to say that and they
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probably their mother told them don't hang out with your father during their
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period of time. [snorts] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Is is is activist a negative word
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or do you think the um the way that word is viewed? >> It's created by the media. It's a media
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it's is a language created by the by the media >> and I guess I quite like the the word
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activist is active and active person within your community >> and uh so probably uh I was at that time
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and I still am. >> And the media over the years um and also authorities actually some politicians
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and the police they've um painted you as dangerous. Were you ever dangerous? Nah,
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no, not at all. I mean, uh, [snorts] we don't arrest people. We don't harass
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people. Uh, others that, um, uh, otherwise that the only people that we, uh, give them a hard time, the people
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that, uh, undermine our mana >> uh that, um, marginalize the way that uh, who we are and uh, well definitely
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there will be a response and there has been a response long before my time. So it's a continuation of uh of resistance
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[snorts] >> from our ancestors uh 100 years 100 years ago and uh right up to my time as a as a young man
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>> and a young kid at school, you know, during that whole period of time. >> Have you over the years sort of enjoyed
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the notoriety? >> Yeah. I didn't even know what the word means. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
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Not at all. You know, I mean, I I I wasn't I wasn't alone. >> I mean, there many of us there that out
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there. I wouldn't go out there just alone by myself doing that. >> You You have to You had to be part and
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parcel of a a group of people. >> Yeah. But I'm the one I always put my
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hands. I'll do that. >> Yeah. I'll be in the front line. >> You're the ring leader.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. You know, [snorts] hang out with the others.
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>> Yeah. I've got a I've got a photo of you here from uh I think it's 53 years ago.
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>> Oh yeah. Yeah. 53 years ago. >> Yeah. That that will be 1972. This one
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here. >> Yeah. How >> the lady I I would have been around about 20. [snorts]
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>> Yeah. And the lady she's from um to Nani. >> And uh in fact I I went to exhibition
00:09:01
there probably just not long after I came out of jail about 2013 or something like that. And yeah. Yeah. I didn't
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realize she she was there as a young woman. She would have been about this >> uh about the same age as me and she was
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a young photographer then. >> When when you see that photo of a of a young Tamiti, how do you feel? How how
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are you this how the man sitting in front of me now? >> Yeah. >> How is he the same? And how is he
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different to that to that handsome young man there? Yeah, I think in you know I mean getting
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older, looking older, you know, and um [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm still
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that person. >> You feel the same? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In every part of it,
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the more matured, I guess. >> I I'm the same. I'm I'm 52, so I'm a bit
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younger than you, but sometimes uh I feel like I'm 20. >> And sometimes I walk past a mirror and
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I'm like, "Holy, who's that? [laughter] Praise that old man there. >> Yeah. Well, I I still feel there.
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>> Yeah. >> I still remain to be sometime I feel 20. >> Yeah. And sometime I do feel 70 73.
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>> When do you when do you feel 73? >> Yeah. Like about half an hour an hour
00:10:16
ago. >> Have a sleep. We call it coral. And um you know you have that a coral nap. and
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uh for that otherwise I I feel like that today >> right at this moment. If
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>> if you could go back in time and tell that young man something, anything, what
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would it be? >> Yeah. >> What would you tell him? >> Yeah. Man in action, big boots.
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>> Yeah. got to carry the boats, >> you know, and um avoid the walk on the booby traps, walk
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on the landmines. >> Yeah. Trigger it. >> Yeah. And going on the sideline. [laughter]
00:11:03
>> I'm still here. >> Yeah, you're still here. Um and the the
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the book's called Mana. Um, what did mana mean to you like then during the time of that photo compared to what it
00:11:15
means now? >> I wasn't too sure. I haven't yet discovered that you know you just go
00:11:19
through that mana is just another word ku that that I know but I really didn't really know the meaning
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totally what it meant for me at that time at at that age you know and still finding my way around explore the
00:11:38
whatever was out there is because it's all all that young person had I had a
00:11:43
gut feeling >> there's a feel of I felt it. Uh yeah. Yeah. And there's a there's a lot of
00:11:51
anger there and there. So finding a way how to deal with that and uh how to uh to confront that [snorts] to confront
00:12:00
that the issues that um that undermine our manner, >> uh our power, our voice. And uh when you
00:12:11
uh go through when you go through that whole situation of being, you know, I I I didn't know
00:12:20
what racism was about. But by the time I was at that age there, I seen it. >> I felt it. You know, I uh I never ever
00:12:30
knew that people hate you just the way who you are, how you look, your skin, the color of your skin. even the length
00:12:38
of your hair. The reason I grew my hair at at that time and um [snorts] yeah and
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the and the system around there is very racist and conservative >> and everything was geared up to be how
00:12:53
to be a parker and how how to be a park air you know and uh pretty strange. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I was not alone in the in
00:13:05
that situation. If I was in your boots um with what you just told me, I' i'd have a massive
00:13:12
[ __ ] chip on my shoulder. Did you have a chip on your shoulder? >> Were you angry?
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a point of angry and Yeah. It's called we call
00:13:22
it. It's a gut feeling. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you >> Yeah. Yeah. And how how do you um how
00:13:30
you um put those that energy [snorts] and the use of that energy and put out there. So you you meet up with a whole a
00:13:40
whole lot of different people mai park activists there they come from the first world war the second world war. So we
00:13:50
were fortunate to have all of those idealist and idealistic people around during that period of time. So that was
00:13:59
a big u >> a big help for us there processing those political thinkers. [snorts and sighs]
00:14:06
>> What do you think has been the best decade for Tamayi? >> Oh all of it.
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>> There's not one that stands out as the best decade of your life. >> Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed the 70s. The '7s
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was great. The music is always great. >> 1970s. >> Yeah. The the 70s all day per the 70s,
00:14:22
you know, the hippie days. uh Jimmy Hendendrick music you know and uh really you know a really interesting
00:14:31
period of time for you know for for everybody in this country and that was a big movement uh mobilization not just um
00:14:40
here uh nationally right throughout but internationally >> and what's been happening of um of
00:14:48
consciousness of awareness politically with socialism uh of the socialist ideas, communism.
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Um yeah, it was really interesting for me. So, uh I kind of got involved in that.
00:15:04
>> In the 70s, that's with when this photo was taken. Were you you're a handsome
00:15:07
dude? Were you a ladies man? >> I don't know. [laughter] Yeah, I tried to keep away from that.
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>> Okay, fair enough. >> Um well, you seem like we've only been talking for 15 minutes. Um but we're
00:15:21
sitting at a table less than a meter away from each other and you seem just really you have this real calm presence
00:15:27
about you. So it seems like you're in a good um age, stage and place of life
00:15:31
now. >> Yeah, I I always have been. >> Yeah. you know, you you have to be you
00:15:37
had to be um clear in your thinking, although at times it's it can be quite confusing
00:15:46
and uh not not only the the struggle within dealing with the system, but dealing with us, your own people
00:15:53
>> going through that u what's been happening within our community [snorts]
00:15:58
uh dealing with our addiction, dealing with uh just normal things that um but uh but taking care of that you know and
00:16:07
and dealing with those situations and be responsible in the way that we need to shift
00:16:14
whatever that is and uh so that's the exciting part of >> of uh be working within your community
00:16:23
and working on your mai and working with your family and uh and confronting all of those situation that uh that we think
00:16:32
we need to debate and and have a convers conversation about that. >> There's so much to talk about with your
00:16:40
story. Um, we go right back to the beginning, the childhood years. Eh, what what is what is your earliest memory?
00:16:47
>> I can always remember [clears throat] [snorts] well as a little kid standing
00:16:53
underneath the table and always remember reaching out trying to reach out to get
00:16:58
my arms. You know, when you're a little kid, I don't know. I could have been
00:17:01
two, >> you know, I could have been three year old and always fascinated about being
00:17:08
under the table and see but we never eat on a table. All our eating happens on the floor
00:17:15
>> and uh yeah, so I always I can still see myself as a little kid doing doing that
00:17:21
and [snorts] I'm finding my way and what's going on up there >> on the top of that table.
00:17:27
>> What are the adults doing? What's happening up there? So I I I remember
00:17:31
all of that. [snorts] Uh I I always remember that because we didn't have power in the house. So we
00:17:39
always have um kerosene lights or uh candle lights. And uh so we um we learned to um to work in the dark. Yeah.
00:17:51
And we didn't have television, not many distractions. So we spent a lot of our
00:17:56
time out in the out in the open fields in the hills working with animals, [snorts] chicken, ducks. So we had all
00:18:05
of that working in the gardens and uh and I always remember we we had heaps of food. We didn't go out shopping
00:18:15
at uh pack and save or anything like that. We didn't and all of that was was
00:18:20
in front of us. And uh but all I know is so you got to work >> hands-on stuff. So you got to go out
00:18:29
there and dirty your hands and [snorts] do your feet. We didn't really have um
00:18:35
uh much footwear during that period of time. So yeah, so you you learn to cope with the elements around you cuz when
00:18:44
you're a kid there in our community in in my time there, we weren't allowed as
00:18:50
as you a kid there, not allowed inside the house. So we spend our time out in out in the open in the field and find a
00:18:58
a sacred place there where you can have a little nap there in the in the [snorts] afternoon or or hide away from
00:19:04
the old man. Yeah, there's uh some stuff in your book which um thankfully you're too young to
00:19:12
remember. Um but you're born on a train. Um yeah, your mom, your biological mom
00:19:17
gives birth to you on a train. Uh which um I would say in 1950s New Zealand, you're probably lucky to survive that.
00:19:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like without any medical apparently we lost our twins.
00:19:30
>> Yeah. They're the oldest and they um and then I think that the old lady is quite
00:19:36
a common thing about in within our faro and losing the child during that period of time.
00:19:43
>> Mhm. >> Uh these days uh never happens. So you you got the availability of of [snorts]
00:19:49
better health system I guess and uh than there was particularly for uh for mai for mai woman
00:19:57
>> at that time >> and there there's a quote in the book from you um at the age of two I was left
00:20:04
at the house of the couple who bought up my father the old lady said they found me when they got back from milking one
00:20:10
day in a nail box on the table. Um I I what what is a nail box? I googled it. Is it a like a crate?
00:20:17
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was. It's a little All the nail box is a real kind of solid box
00:20:21
there where you have all your nails and uh so I I would have been a very tiny Well, look at me. I'm a little
00:20:28
short ass. And uh and so uh I would have been a a little tiny baby during that period of time.
00:20:37
>> So So the couple that raised you as their son, they just arrived home one
00:20:41
day and you were there like you'd been >> Yeah. Apparently. Apparently. I didn't
00:20:44
know that. And I didn't found that out found out about that till I was about
00:20:48
18. >> And I go, >> "Yeah, you know, and uh I'm not too sure
00:20:55
who shared that with me." I would have been the old lady who got it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so every every now and
00:21:02
then [sighs] she had an issue about me, you know, and then she would throw things out
00:21:10
blah blah blah blah and having a go me, you know, and she kind of reminded me, you kind of confused me that if you
00:21:18
don't if you carry on with that behavior, I'm going to send you home. Yeah. Yeah. And I said, "What the hell
00:21:23
you on about? >> This is my home." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you get a
00:21:27
conf if you if you're a child being found out or being adopted by you know a
00:21:32
staller family [snorts] >> rather confusing for for many of us and uh being raised by by grandparents
00:21:40
>> and uh you know and to have those moments with you. So I felt that really
00:21:47
confused and I kind of thinking what what the hell was that all about? So you you ended up having um having a
00:21:56
relationship or contact with your biological parents. Yes. Did did you ever chat to your mom and and [snorts]
00:22:01
ask her why? >> Uh actually I I tried to more more so the conversation more so with my with
00:22:08
our biological father. Uh but he did had an issue with me, you know, and uh uh yeah, I think I I wanted to get I
00:22:20
didn't I was in my 20ies and uh excuse [cough and clears throat] me [snorts] and with my um with the mother
00:22:28
of my children and uh I said to her that um I think we um I think it would be good for us there to go to Hamilton. So
00:22:37
we we hitched from Ruati over to Hamilton and I just went down and said to the old man going to come and stay
00:22:45
with you but they only last about 3 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know he he he was just
00:22:54
one of those guys who who was afraid because we shared the same name. His name was Tammy. He didn't like the fact
00:23:00
that um that he heard I was doing the fake quarter a speech there on the mai >> and all of that and I thought that
00:23:09
I confronted him and I said to him I don't know why he talked to me like that and you know because the old man
00:23:19
that brought you up and also bought me up he never ever at any time saying anything like how you spoke to me.
00:23:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so um yeah. Yeah. And so we we kind of I kind of kept away from
00:23:33
him for a long time until Yeah. So he kind of let go of some of those issues. And
00:23:41
>> yeah, we become friends. Yeah. I I wanted to have a relationship with the
00:23:46
father. >> I wanted to know about him. I wanted to have a close relationship with him. And
00:23:54
that's what I was looking forward to, you know. And uh it didn't happen for me
00:23:59
in the period until till he was feeling you know really sick >> in his early 60s you know he had trouble
00:24:07
with his heart and um yeah I had to let go. In fact it was his brother who actually came over to um grab me and
00:24:16
took me down when he was really sick. He was on his way out and uh so yeah so I decided to go and see him in the
00:24:24
hospital. So he last another four or five years after that. [snorts] So we got on med after that.
00:24:30
>> Did you before you made that connection did you have like a sense of aband what
00:24:35
they call abandonment issues or anything? >> No. >> No. >> No. I'm actually privileged. I'm lucky.
00:24:41
>> Yes. >> In the way that I was also raised by the same person that raised him.
00:24:45
>> Right. uh for the reason was that um uh I was able to uh to know the language, to know the
00:24:55
culture and uh I would have been a different person. Mhm. >> I think that uh being raised by the old
00:25:03
people was uh was a blessing for me. >> Mhm. >> And uh never regretted that. And I it's
00:25:10
in fact I I thank my mom and dad for placing me in the mailbox and hang out in >> in the two-way country and here I am
00:25:18
today. >> You've got so much gratitude, don't you? >> What do you mean?
00:25:24
>> Like you Yeah. You're so thankful. You're glass half full, not a glass half
00:25:28
empty. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we can turn that we can turn that around
00:25:33
>> rather than creating something that is you know and um you know uh in a in a
00:25:40
negative way >> and I think we can always see good things that come out of that.
00:25:45
>> Yes. >> Even in a negative negative situation in a chaos situation
00:25:51
>> and uh cuz we learn a lot from a chaotic situation. >> So I learn a lot from that. Is that an
00:25:58
ability you have like with generally in life just to to find the good and and peace? Yeah,
00:26:04
>> that's that [clears throat] >> that's that's a big >> Yeah. Yeah. But there's a real fine line
00:26:12
[clears throat] between good and bad [cough] >> and so you learn from all of that.
00:26:17
>> So you have to experience the negativity and to be able to understand what's good
00:26:23
for us in front of us. >> Yeah. Because there's that saying, I don't know if you've heard the saying,
00:26:28
every cloud has a silver lining. >> But some sometimes it's hard to find the
00:26:32
silver lining, isn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Can be hard. >> Well, you feel it,
00:26:36
>> you see it, you have a color to it, you know, >> and um interesting.
00:26:44
>> So, um you grew up speaking to only, no English, >> and then you go to school and you get
00:26:51
punished um for speaking to. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that didn't
00:26:56
happen till later years probably at um in primary school. We uh we've been subjected to that.
00:27:05
>> Uh we've been subjected to the uh the racist kind of attitude that occurred
00:27:10
during that period of time. But uh you kind of know that um that was normal. But I didn't like it. All of us didn't
00:27:20
like that what was happening in France. >> Yeah. normal just cuz you didn't know
00:27:24
any different and you're just kids being told what to do. >> There's a lot of physical violence, you
00:27:29
know, from the system. You get strapped, you get hit. They have these big thick long strap there and the belt. They're
00:27:37
whippy with it, you know, and >> whippy whatever they trying to, you know, they give you the bash,
00:27:44
>> you know, and they give you the best there for not knowing things or not
00:27:50
being um uh not being in uh in the conversation with them or not saying anything, you get to the point that
00:28:00
I didn't say anything. And even though I know when when they ask me a question,
00:28:05
even though I know about it, do you know anything about it? I just go like this.
00:28:10
Just my shoulders. >> Just just cuz you don't want to get in trouble. >> No. No. I just didn't didn't feel like
00:28:16
having a conversation. >> Yeah. >> You know, I was like that. >> I really didn't want to have a
00:28:23
conversation. H. So the the punishments that were meed out for speaking today in class when
00:28:30
you're told not to um you're either allowed to go and shovel up [ __ ] or
00:28:35
write lines. >> Yeah. 100 lines on the blackboard >> like Bart Simpson.
00:28:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> On the on the opening credits of the >> you had to count and then not only that
00:28:44
you do your 100 lines that afternoon. So we all appeared. I wasn't alone in that
00:28:50
situation. So you appeared in front of the classroom. So when the kids walk in and all look at you and they and then
00:28:58
then you had to go and count each of the words there. One 2 3 4 in front of the class. That's all part of the
00:29:06
punishments, you know, and trying to shame you. >> And uh >> yeah, it kind of worked. So we we had a
00:29:15
go at it. We tested out. We had a conversation about it. We we decided no bug, you know, we're just going to car
00:29:25
and um yeah, so after a while after you done 300 lines in one wheelbarrow [snorts] and uh and you said and then
00:29:36
you go like this. >> Mhm. >> Quiet. >> So I did. >> Yeah. And they stuck in the back of my
00:29:44
mind for for many years. And then one day I thought about talking about that creating art around that
00:29:53
>> started writing 100 lines. [snorts] So I done a series of work called blackboard
00:29:59
and the reason I used the the work blackboard was we had to write 100 lines on the blackboard. So my first
00:30:06
exhibition that I uh solo exhibition was held here in the archold uh gallery here down in Grayland.
00:30:15
[snorts] Uh that would have been about in um >> yeah it wasn't too far wasn't too uh
00:30:21
wasn't wasn't long ago. [snorts] [sighs] >> But how did how did that make you feel
00:30:28
at the time? So so here you are you're this little boy. Um the only language
00:30:32
you know iso and you get told you can't I'm just trying to put myself in your
00:30:36
shoes. I'm imagining I'm in a school somewhere and I get told I can't speak
00:30:40
English but it's the only language I know. Did did it make you feel angry, confused? vulnerable.
00:30:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Because I I wasn't alone, you know. So, you gota
00:30:50
imagine it wasn't just about tamichi, you know, but what was happening within
00:30:55
the school system, you know, and uh how affect affected us in because we talked about that.
00:31:02
>> Uh it wasn't that I didn't I understand English very clear. >> Okay.
00:31:07
>> Yeah. you know, not that I I mean there's a different I can if I have a
00:31:12
conversation with you in English, I have difficulties having a conversation with
00:31:16
you, but actually I can read, >> you know, and uh you know cuz our family um our faro is a farmers. So um you know
00:31:25
they got you know read all the they got to understand the language. So they we all understand the language. Uh but
00:31:33
having the conversation It was that that's all of an exercise all together. >> If you if you trace your steps back is
00:31:42
is that sort of the moment or the period where the activist was born? >> Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think they
00:31:48
that came through there and but uh we've been reminded over a period of time uh
00:31:54
that activism come from many long time through the resistance of our great-grandfathers and grandmothers.
00:31:59
>> Yeah. They resisted the um the um you know the uh the system right through
00:32:07
through that the invasion of our community the burning down of the homes. uh what what what happens there when uh
00:32:16
when our when some of our community were issued with an eviction notice and uh the same thing that happened in the gas
00:32:25
land and um happened within our community uh over nearly 200 years ago >> and then we got pushed out literally
00:32:34
physically got pushed out. [snorts] So our family are the the survivors of that and uh here now
00:32:44
telling the stories, sharing the story here today. So back in primary school, why didn't
00:32:52
you why didn't you just become like a good a good little a good little sheep
00:32:56
and do do as you were told? Like where did that strength and courage of convict conviction come from for you to say
00:33:02
actually no, this is [ __ ] I'm not going to I'm not going to do what you
00:33:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know. You know, you you you you learn through your first
00:33:11
10 years of your life >> and you learn through that and there just something not quite right.
00:33:18
>> You know, as a child, you learn that your eyes, I had eyes, I can see things
00:33:22
>> and you can see good things and you can see not too good things. You can hear
00:33:27
things. So a lot of my learning is visual [snorts] and uh so you see it you look at it and sometimes you can turn a
00:33:35
blind eye what you see >> you just look somewhere else I didn't see that did you see that no I didn't
00:33:41
>> what you talking about you know that >> and uh to avoid those situation
00:33:48
but I didn't but I didn't had a voice then but I kept it there in mind you
00:33:54
know quietly and [snorts] um and just having those little chats with all the other kids that around us,
00:34:01
>> you know, and um we we didn't had a we didn't had any idea how to deal with it,
00:34:07
how to respond to the things that we really didn't like it. And um [snorts] yeah. Yeah. And I guess that uh our
00:34:14
first response to the uh to the we were told there in early days not allowed to speak Molly on my school grounds and uh
00:34:21
we thought I don't know about that. So I had a chat with the old man about it and
00:34:26
he said you have to listen to the to the box meaning the teacher and uh I wasn't I
00:34:38
wanted to hear something else you know I um I went I wasn't too happy about what
00:34:44
he what he said to me something I um heard about you which I had no idea this was Um quite an
00:34:55
epiphany. You were a really good wrestler. Like you could have um you could have made it to the Commonwealth
00:34:59
Games. >> Yeah. Yeah. I had plans for that in the early because I I like like it's is an
00:35:06
old ancient art wrestling they called it. >> And uh yeah, it was fun. I was really
00:35:14
good at it. >> Yeah. So I went to train with the guy that was uh in the New Zealand Olympics
00:35:20
in the Commonwealth Games. uh they were part of the uh Ken Coppers club there that um uh that was um
00:35:30
created back in the uh first world war and for a lot of young people back in the day. So I joined up with with that
00:35:37
and uh yeah and then I end up to be in the curtain races for the uh uh for the professional wrestlers John the Silva
00:35:46
and all that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So it was fun. It was big time. Britain were big time in those
00:35:51
days. [snorts] >> And uh in fact I I was the um 10 stone back in 10 stone the way 10 stone. So I
00:36:02
was the um South South Island Canterbury champ during that period of time. >> Wow.
00:36:08
>> So they uh found that I I had potential back then. >> And I like wrestling because it's a bit
00:36:14
different to boxing. You know, in boxing, you got to hit somebody. And with wrestling, you just disarm people,
00:36:21
flip them on the ground, and flip them over. And uh and it's okay. You just hold on, lock them. And uh I like that.
00:36:29
And um I did boxing there as a younger person. And after being bullied by kids, I got um we got taught by uh Second
00:36:40
World War uh Navy veteran guy from Tanya. >> And uh and the three of us there used to
00:36:47
go on the horseback on on the horseback to Tanya. It's about 5 miles away from
00:36:52
their village. And u Yeah. Yeah. So I learned the art of um Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's all about
00:37:00
maintaining your mana >> and uh taking away the fear. Yeah. Cuz I didn't I didn't know how to deal with
00:37:07
bullies >> and I become a bully myself in the end. >> Yeah. The move to Christ Church um after
00:37:16
school that was to become like a a decorator like like a house painter. >> Yeah. What was what was that like for
00:37:22
for a young moldy kid going to really >> Yeah. I'm really interested in being in
00:37:26
the uh my interest in the architecture, >> you know, in the in the framework and
00:37:32
many of the uh the tutors that taught us to Peter come from u come from Scotland,
00:37:39
from uh the Netherlands, from all over the world >> and I was really interested in in that.
00:37:46
I had no idea what I was going for. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I was really interested
00:37:51
in that because you spend the whole year. It's all part of the program. But for my young maldis like us living in
00:37:58
the coming from the rural area and uh so we uh geared up there to uh uh to to to
00:38:06
go through to go through that. Yeah, it was a really interesting period of time about learning about what you liked in
00:38:13
the color of your house and your wallpapering. >> We we did everything. We did everything.
00:38:20
these days he's just a painter but we did everything from um uh you know you
00:38:26
know living in crisis you know you know all the old buildings and and all of that so we learned all the art of um
00:38:34
interior decorators back in those days >> were were you were you quite a minority
00:38:39
down there or was it was there a bit of a moldy community >> oh huge >> was there was in Christ
00:38:43
>> church yeah yes a huge mi community [snorts] uh there was a nahoo community
00:38:49
Uh uh there was hundreds of us of the uh Yanu Mai that went down to Christ Church. Uh but Christ Church was a quite
00:38:58
a racist town. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So it's always had that reputation. Eh
00:39:02
was is it was it was it a racist town? >> English town. Everything was designed
00:39:07
making crisis as the English town outside London or outside [snorts] England. So they want to build this uh
00:39:15
empire or the British Empire and in to um Yeah. Yeah. to uh to capture you and they want to think like them, walk like
00:39:27
them, dress like them >> and uh that was all part of the plan. But you being a young man down there who
00:39:36
was um strong and fit, good at wrestling, done a bit of boxing, um did people leave you alone or did you
00:39:42
experience much in the way of racism? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was super fat. >> Yeah.
00:39:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, and uh I I was super fed there, but you you go through
00:39:50
that whole period of time and I remember uh Canterbury team was invited to go and
00:39:56
meet up with the uh with royalty with Princess Anne and I remember I hired a suit there to go for that occasion.
00:40:04
[snorts] I did attend there with hundreds of other people. Yeah. Yeah. And I was processing it just just going
00:40:11
through that kind of motion and uh Yeah. and and you get to the point that h no not me because by then I was uh I was
00:40:20
exposed to many other thinkers of the the Vietnam war uh anti-apartite movements and uh and I think I got
00:40:31
through there and I decided no I [snorts] don't think I want to go down to the for the Olympic games for the
00:40:37
Commonwealth camp actually I was training for the Commonwealth of 1974 >> yeah so I kind of pulled that I think I
00:40:44
just got to go and hitchhike and go and pitch a change down in Parliament grounds with all my other mates.
00:40:50
>> You just Yeah. You found your tribe, your community, your like-minded people.
00:40:54
>> Well, yeah. Yeah, because the 70s was an interesting period of time of activism,
00:41:01
>> you know, the hippie days, smoking and marijuana and uh tripping and all of
00:41:07
that, you know, and um yeah, so so was a learning learning curve for us here of the of the younger generation of that
00:41:15
time. Um we didn't have the gangs, but the gains came from from my generation
00:41:22
>> and um yeah, all of that. M >> yeah pitching a tent on parliament. So
00:41:27
that was um I think that was the year I was born. Was that 72? 73. >> 72. >> 72. Yeah, that was the year before I was
00:41:32
born. So you've been you've been living this life for a long time. >> What was um what was that for? The
00:41:39
>> I actually saw a photo that year of a Aboriginal tent embassy in CRA. [snorts]
00:41:49
>> Yeah. And so, you know, cuz we all read the paper, all the propaganda. >> So, we all go rich. We, you know, it's a
00:41:56
it's an old habit because everybody read the paper. >> And uh then then I think was in the
00:42:02
middle page of the international niche was the uh was the embassy house and what embassy things. So, I met up with
00:42:10
those guys, Richard Bell. Richard Bell still alive. Um Gary Folly still alive. I think they're about only two guys. cuz
00:42:18
they come from the embassies still around today. >> And um Yeah. And so I've been hanging
00:42:23
out with those guys ever since too. And uh Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't had a
00:42:30
tent. They had those umbrellas, you know, those beach umbrella. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I had a tent. Yeah. I u
00:42:39
Yeah. I happened to hitchhike all the way when I doing the campaign to get a support for the for the MAI embassy. So
00:42:45
I was the one that put my hand there. Would that be me? cuz we share their idea. I like what the Aboriginal you
00:42:52
know why don't we do that and and they all nam members will say yes why not he
00:42:58
said I'll put man I'll do it I'll go down there and set up the embassy and
00:43:03
whoever turn up there within a week or a day and they can be the ambassador for the day or for the week. So that was us
00:43:11
there right through to the end of the uh of the election when um Norman Cook was
00:43:16
elected as the prime minister of that time and um yeah it was a really interesting period of time for us there
00:43:24
too creating the space there for us there to have a voice and the reason we picked
00:43:30
that time was the election. We thought there was an opportunity for us there to uh to be engaged
00:43:37
uh politically in a way that you have a voice and uh yeah so that was it. >> Mhm.
00:43:44
>> When when was the first time you you got on the wrong side of the law and got
00:43:48
arrested? >> Uh [clears throat] was that as a kid as a 13year-old driving a tractor,
00:43:56
>> right? >> Yeah. And the cops stopped him and stopped me there and asked me if I had a
00:44:00
license. And I said, I really didn't know anything about license. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:07
And I say, "How old are you?" And I say, "15." Well, I think I was only 13, but
00:44:13
he caught up with the old man. I told the old man, the man stopped me down the road, meaning the cop.
00:44:19
>> And [snorts] uh and he say, "I think he want to see you." >> Yeah. Yeah. So he had a check the cop.
00:44:25
He he just told him that uh I I shouldn't be driving the tractor. He was a liar. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my first
00:44:33
first first ever being uh spoken to by the police. >> First first of first of many over the
00:44:39
years. Did did what was your relationship like with the police? Did you did you dislike them? You distrust?
00:44:45
Uh well, you know, they they had an attitude particularly on Mai and I always remember as a fitness at a
00:44:54
fitness a fitness fanatic and running in the at night and uh go for a run at night there with a double bag on my back
00:45:03
and then you get stopped by the police. They would check your bags, see what you
00:45:07
got in there, where you going, what you running for. >> Profiling. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and uh I didn't
00:45:13
know my rights then. I didn't know that you don't have to speak to them or say
00:45:17
anything. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, they have those early stage of being stopped by the police.
00:45:23
>> And uh yeah, they just they're just known as the [ __ ] of our community.
00:45:29
The the police, they weren't uh >> they weren't even protecting our
00:45:33
interest at all. So, we always been profiled as anything happened. in city where all the moldi maldi boys uh been
00:45:41
picked and I remember the police coming through to somebody happened to be beaten up at the Lancaster public toilet
00:45:50
and uh so they took all the 60 boys from the hostel and uh transport everybody to
00:45:57
the police station so the guy the victim able to see whether if any of us did the
00:46:03
job but of course we didn't but still you know, uh, a scary experience for for
00:46:10
young Mai young mai boys during that period of time. [sighs] >> What do you think now? 2025, has it has
00:46:18
it got better? >> Yeah. Yes or no? Yeah. I think there's a a better system that uh, you know, it it
00:46:25
can be improved. It need to be improved. >> [snorts] >> I think that part and parcel of the um
00:46:31
of the uh police mi lea officer is uh become the voice within their own system and able to negotiate having those
00:46:41
conversation within our community. Uh yeah and then I think there some of those attitudes still around you know
00:46:50
and um but I I had some interesting time with the with the police themselves and
00:46:55
I remember during the coc that I was in um during co I got a call from the uh police college and uh they want to have
00:47:03
a have a conversation with them and uh and so they asked me what do you think h [clears throat] not a bad idea. Yeah.
00:47:14
And I thought about, oh well, why don't talk to your staff about how not to be
00:47:18
an [ __ ] [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. So they really enjoy that. So I had those conversation.
00:47:25
>> Yeah. Because uh what make you you know why do you think you a lot of moldy
00:47:30
people think that you're an [ __ ] You need to know about that. >> Yeah. That was really interesting per.
00:47:36
So I managed to have those full conversation with the police. In fact, I went to the uh to the police college and
00:47:44
um yeah and and had a session where with their staff from the senior sergeant up
00:47:50
>> and right down to the to the street cops and >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really good
00:47:56
there to to have those kind of conversations. >> Yeah. And I think you're the right guy
00:48:00
to have those conversations as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, something else that I didn't
00:48:05
realize you were involved with until I uh read it in the book, but the um 1975 Maldi land march led by uh Finny Cooper
00:48:12
um who was 79 at the time. She's there's iconic photos of her on that walk. You
00:48:17
you were part of that too. >> Well, we actually the one that created that. It wasn't Finna Cooper.
00:48:22
>> Fa Cooper was the face [snorts] and we needed a a face like that. She had the
00:48:27
profile. We didn't have the profile >> and we needed people like her to reach
00:48:33
out to people like my biological father you was scared as [ __ ] as to the um [snorts]
00:48:42
what's happened for him you know and uh and we thought that uh we we had a conversation around the table with Sid
00:48:50
Jackson and others and uh we uh lay out all the names of the person that we looking for. So we all decided the only
00:49:01
woman there in that conversation was Fina Koopa and who happens to be the president of the uh MAI woman's welfare
00:49:08
league who she had something like 35,000 registered members of the women's uh
00:49:16
welfare league and uh that was the face >> and but we need a slogan and the slogan
00:49:23
was [snorts] not one more acre to be sold and uh So the faith and the slogan and the march from the harpa and all the
00:49:33
way down to uh to to Wellington. >> So we said to her that we will do all the dog work or you know all she had to
00:49:43
do smile and have a chat and uh yeah so was an interesting period of time. So it
00:49:50
worked you know and it really was um you know from you know building raising the
00:49:57
consciousness to have a voice and uh yeah and worked all right for us during that period of
00:50:05
time. >> What was she like? uh she's a real character's uh you know amazing you know
00:50:12
of that generation and I found that uh >> uh a number of um of that generation
00:50:19
even younger they even recid and uh many of those character and within our community and uh we're out
00:50:32
there and um >> yeah yeah so we we we did all the planning and uh looking at different
00:50:39
ways and different approaches to uh raising Dr. Con and having a voice and having mana maintaining our mana either
00:50:52
till 95 95 years old. >> I'm not too sure. >> Yeah, but she was 79 when she did that
00:50:56
walk age. >> No, no, no. she was in other and I remember I was working in the border
00:51:01
lines of uh at the Mikon River down in Thailand and u los and uh so we I had a meeting with some with some guys we were
00:51:10
working with during that period of time and and the guy came up from Bangkok came into our camp and and the first
00:51:17
thing he said to me was your grandmother had passed away and I said grandmother I
00:51:22
don't have a grandmother you all go a long time ago but was was uh fa and she
00:51:28
passed. So I was over in there. They they had her on international >> television back then and people were
00:51:35
talking about it. Yeah. >> Can we talk about Tomokco? >> Mo. Yes. >> Moco. Yeah.
00:51:42
>> What did I say? Moco. >> Yeah. Mo. Yeah. No, you're right. You're
00:51:45
right. >> I um I I I can speak very um basic Moldi just like some words, but I I get this
00:51:52
thing. I get nervous when I say them because Yeah. People correct me when I say them wrong, but I try.
00:51:56
>> No, it's okay. Exactly. >> Yeah. Killed it. >> Um, so you you got this in your late
00:52:01
30s, I believe. Late 30s, early 40s. And I believe >> it could be early 40s.
00:52:05
>> I believe you you thought about it for like seven years before. >> That's correct.
00:52:10
>> Well, it's a process. It's processing because you part of the liberation in
00:52:15
your mana muhake is to you you just go through that and you have a conversation. So I I had a chat with
00:52:23
other people in fact that I I had some early research and conversation with those that had the mo
00:52:31
for the woman and uh Yeah. Yeah. And then we we we just talk among the men around within our community and and we
00:52:40
all had a chap. What do you reckon, bro? >> Yeah. Why not? >> Yeah. But we didn't had any more
00:52:47
artists. >> Yeah. But you had tattoo artists. Yeah. And so having those conversation, where do we
00:52:54
get the the knowledge from? And and having those conversation and having the conversation and the people that still
00:53:01
have those knowledge uh come from the from the artist from the car. Yeah. And so I put my hand with four others within
00:53:11
our community and we decided to find somebody from Chu Hoy. We found the guy. He was scared about doing anything about
00:53:20
that because he had no knowledge about Mo during that period of time. But he was a great artist and so it was a was a
00:53:27
learning curve for all of us and uh and yeah. Yeah. And then you you go through that whole process and and we finally
00:53:36
got it and then and taking that corded all that conversation to to the nation and go in front of the camera and say
00:53:46
this is what the future look like. you're looking at it. M >> so here we are 30 40 years later
00:53:55
bus loads of guys you got doctors with a mo you got politician with a mo and uh >> it's happening you got somebody working
00:54:03
on the on television with a moini was one of those and she was one of the uh the first um recognized person in
00:54:16
mainstream media he was bleeding the knees with the moawa. So just like the language, the mo is like the language in
00:54:24
bringing the language to onto the platform. It's no longer tucked down in the corner.
00:54:30
>> And uh so here we are. >> But when when you got it done, I guess probably about 1990, it's not something
00:54:36
you saw very often. >> Yeah. Yeah. Around about 1990 that happened. I just got back from the
00:54:41
States about 91. Could have been 92. >> Yeah. So what sort of reaction did you
00:54:46
get from people? Was it um admiration or >> Yeah, most of most of it admiration.
00:54:52
Yeah. They they thought that it suited me at that time and they told anybody where the mo is you.
00:54:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I got good response from our community. In fact was good. And so
00:55:05
we took that challenge within our community and uh and so anybody that had the role [snorts] uh of the of elders of
00:55:15
the karanga at the fight quarter standing on the should and um yeah so we debated that and uh here we are. So we
00:55:25
got practitioners all over the place now. >> You know, it become an industry. It's
00:55:29
become part of the learning at the uh in in the school in the university or just
00:55:35
within our community. So we got heaps and heaps of uh mo artists. >> It's amazing.
00:55:42
>> Was it was it one session or a number of sessions? >> Uh for me probably appeared around about
00:55:49
three or four session. >> Right. >> In fact, my face been done three times.
00:55:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh here you are. >> Oh yeah, I heard a story. You you got
00:56:00
part of it done. I think the nose and then you had a trip to Australia. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I I had I did half a
00:56:06
face because we're still learning how to do it. And even the the you know the uh the uh
00:56:16
>> the toa was wasn't too sure how to do. It's a new thing for us.
00:56:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then uh he said, "Well, why don't we start on the nose?" I start
00:56:25
the nose. So I end up one side done. So I think I walked around there for about 6 months with a half face done and went
00:56:33
to Australia with the half face done and uh been interested in how people respond
00:56:38
to that. >> Yeah. Nothing negative. >> The only negative thing was they going
00:56:43
to bars around the country where they have notice on their board saying those with facial markings not allowed to be
00:56:50
in this place. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, here
00:56:53
in Oakuckland. >> You you could you think that distinguish the difference between say
00:56:58
>> that's what debate that was the debate about it. This is not >> a tribal tattoo versus like a gang in
00:57:06
>> I want to talk to your manager about it. I I refuse to go till you till we remove
00:57:12
that u you know and negative uh tone about the uh the mo. Yeah. Yeah. So I got locked up for them just for uh just
00:57:21
for that. But uh things changed. You you had to do those action during that period of time.
00:57:29
[sighs] [gasps] >> Yeah. I mean well some someone has to do it. But why did it have to be you like
00:57:35
it comes at such a big personal cost. >> Yeah. That's right. I I make commitments
00:57:40
to to those you know to the language to the mo to every part of who what make us
00:57:48
[snorts] >> you know and uh because they all connected the m connected to the
00:57:53
language >> you know and uh yeah uh I wasn't alone by myself there was there was a movement
00:58:01
itself >> but everybody thinks it's tamiti again you know no it wasn't just me
00:58:06
>> you you were just the loudest or the noisiest the front. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:11
>> Yeah. But but if you're out at a bar and you're at a crossroads and you think I
00:58:14
can either like argue this and maybe end up spending the night in the holding cells or not, like I don't know. I think
00:58:21
I'd be like, "Whatever. I'll just leave it." But you were never the guy that
00:58:24
just left it. >> Yeah. No, no, no. I I just You >> had to do it. We had, you know, so
00:58:31
>> we we had a conversation about it, you know. I I didn't just go went out there
00:58:35
solely by myself. >> Yeah. But um yeah, that's how it works in uh in those
00:58:43
early days of uh activism. >> I I think it's it's admirable. I I feel
00:58:51
like I'm a person that's, you know, never sort of had I don't know, maybe my
00:58:54
belief system's been a bit flimsy and I just haven't cared enough and uh I kind
00:58:58
of wish I was more like you in that respect. >> Yeah. Yeah. But there was many many many
00:59:02
other people >> Yeah. >> before me that was making James K. If you if you understand if you heard of
00:59:08
the uh history of James K's dad who got kidnapped in his village in Tanaki and
00:59:15
uh taken to the front line. >> This is it James K. Baxter the writer >> the father. Yeah his father he was the
00:59:21
uh who was a conscious objector >> and uh and so to me those are really brave guys there
00:59:29
>> they just refused to part. They refused to put the military uh uniform on and
00:59:36
they were treated really bad, you know, and uh so my action was really minute compared
00:59:44
to those guys that they put their put their life and their belief on the line and they they never shed.
00:59:50
>> They really got really physically abused by the system during the this is park
00:59:56
people dealing with their own with their own system. some of the um the [clears throat] like
01:00:04
you you getting kicked out of bars um because of your mock. Uh that's like less high-profile I guess than some
01:00:10
other things like um the 2005 shooting of a flag at the Wangi Tribunal hearing. >> Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:16
>> Yeah. As I said before, I've seen that clip maybe a thousand times >> and I can see it now for for what it is.
01:00:22
It's um as you call it, artivism. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Combination of art and activism.
01:00:26
>> Well, theatrical. It's theater. >> Yeah. You know, life is theatrical
01:00:31
>> and we had to uh present a way that how how can we uh share our views and
01:00:38
history faka papa to uh w and so that was an opportunity for us there to have a conversation about the white tribunal
01:00:48
was based uh the part of the claim was what happened to us there uh 100 years 100 years ago and um yeah [snorts] yeah
01:00:58
so was an opportunity unity for us there to to share those stories and to get things right. And uh and uh we thought
01:01:07
that uh it' be an opportunity opportunity for us there to to meet up with the White Tangi Tribino down in on
01:01:15
the confuscation line and uh and perform and create fire, smoke, heat, >> attention. Yeah. Tension, you know, and
01:01:26
uh and work really well. M >> people were quite shocked by it. Yeah. >> And that's what you you wanted to be
01:01:31
provocative. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I think it's a it's a it's a good way to provoke our
01:01:37
thinking and people ask question. What was that all about? >> Well, in fact, 100 years ago, blah blah
01:01:43
blah blah. >> But you end up getting in getting in trouble for that for >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just dumb [ __ ]
01:01:50
you know, and not me, you know, in the way that people see things. Right. >> And in fact that the police, the local
01:01:56
cop there was okay about it. There's some [snorts] uh actor in Peggy from Parliament who uh
01:02:03
made a complaint about what he uh viewed on television. So the police responded on their
01:02:09
complaints and next minute I was um I was detained and uh arrested for for that for the use of firearms. But we
01:02:19
debated that. I got convicted and I making they my lawyer and it's like I took the case there to the app court and
01:02:27
I got thrown away by that three judges at the hearing down in Wellington. >> Yeah.
01:02:35
>> And is it true the the flag that you shoot it's um sort of scrunched up so
01:02:39
you can't see but it's an Australian flag. >> No no >> it's not.
01:02:43
>> No. >> Why? There there's a rumor that it's an Australian flag.
01:02:46
>> Yeah. Was that I created that? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I run I can't remember the
01:02:51
reporter on TV1. He's Yeah. I think he's still around their character. >> The guy with the big mo and uh
01:02:57
>> Oh, Mark Sainsbury. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Him. I run him and say, "Be do you
01:03:03
want to hear you want to hear a scoop?" He say, "What was that?" Well, he know
01:03:07
the le shooting of the New Zealand flag. Well, it wasn't even the New Zealand. It
01:03:12
was the Australian flag. I was having them on. [laughter] Yeah. So you read on uh he spoke about it on the uh on TV one
01:03:19
that that afternoon that evening. >> Yeah. Yeah. And anyway um I uh I uh appeared here up in Oakuckland a couple
01:03:28
of days later. So all the young park fellas in Oakland yelling Australian flag and like that bong bong
01:03:36
b [laughter] they really love that. Yeah I thought that was interesting. >> So so so you look you look back on that.
01:03:42
So it's 20 years ago now. Are you Yeah. When you see that footage, you you proud
01:03:46
of that? >> Oh, yeah. Of course, >> it's a performance. It's theater.
01:03:52
There's no way there's no other way that we need to illustrate that in to uh
01:03:57
frame it in such a way, you know. So, I was just part of it. There was another group. Yeah. I had the smallest gun was
01:04:05
a shotgun. All the other folks had 303 227 and >> and all of that, but I was the one that
01:04:12
they uh profile. It did hit on me. >> And then two years after that came the
01:04:18
arrest for terrorism. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. What's what's the backstory of
01:04:22
that for anyone that's listening to this podcast or watching this podcast that
01:04:26
you maybe can't remember that or isn't familiar? What's the the quick is there
01:04:29
a quick backstory? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I was I've been running programs in in N weather
01:04:36
and uh particularly working with young people and uh taking them up to the hills and teach them about the uh about
01:04:44
the nature, the forest and uh so through a whole period of time I also work with a lot of the old war
01:04:52
veterans from the Vietnam War. Yeah, it was a really good exercise. Yes, we did have some training. We did have
01:04:58
firearms, but we didn't have plans to go and kill people there. I don't know
01:05:02
where that came from. And uh yeah, and so carrying guns in the is not something unusual. It's quite a normal thing. We
01:05:12
all been raised there with firearms in the house and they still are today, you know, and so the media kind of created
01:05:20
all of that. they start building their own propaganda narrative and there and so the police kind of heard about it. Uh
01:05:29
the police uh found out that a particular character that was in having a communication with me which they've
01:05:36
been watching that particular guy and um and so they're trying to build a make a
01:05:42
picture build a picture around it and I'm assuming that they built that and h
01:05:48
come running around with guns. Yes, I was. But not what they think it is. Yeah. >> Can you remember the the day of the
01:05:55
raids? Was was that a frightening experience? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like do like like a armed defender squad
01:06:01
banging doors down or >> No, they didn't bang on the door. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was a big loud. Yeah. So
01:06:08
imagine, you know, cuz I I can still see it and I I felt it actually long before
01:06:14
it happens. And I felt it and I felt >> something's not right. >> Something not quite right. I can feel
01:06:20
it, >> you know. And because I was on my computer and I writing a report. I
01:06:26
writing a report. It was a Monday. Was a Monday morning. And uh I was writing a report of the lady I was having a
01:06:33
conversation having a bit of a trouble with her with her son. And so I finished I said I better do this report before
01:06:40
before I go to work. They probably run about 5:00 in the morning. And uh and so when I I decided to go and lie down in
01:06:48
bed and and I went there and lie in my bed with my partner at that time and we um yeah and then and then all of a
01:06:57
sudden this big loud loud ha resident at two bar two wid street come out with the hands up in the air and
01:07:07
listen the voice keep on repeating itself loud clear two bar two and I So [ __ ] that's me. That's my house.
01:07:19
[snorts] Yeah. I mean, by then wake everybody up. Yeah. Yeah. And so uh Yeah. And so we
01:07:27
and I pulled the curtain down there because there's only one door. So I pulled the curtain. There was a whole
01:07:33
lot of police cars. And then then we had to go out to the the other door. And then
01:07:40
yeah, that's that's a moment that the moment I open the door and then there's
01:07:47
a flashlight and boom. Yeah. And then bright light there and then red dot all at the same
01:07:56
time. So you get a red dot there on your your on your body on your forehead. And I immediately stopped and
01:08:05
[clears throat] I realized this guy come to kill me. >> So I better kind of breathe. So it
01:08:12
shifted from their moment to not quite like a a nightmare. It's just like a dream. It's not a movie.
01:08:22
>> It's just it's real. Yeah. And then action. Boom boom boom boom boom boom.
01:08:28
Just like that. We hit on the ground. They got a gun at the back of your head yelling and screaming. It's like a
01:08:36
movie. >> Was Was that response over the top? >> Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. I mean,
01:08:42
I'm an easy fellow to talk to. [laughter] You could have just come and talk to me. Tell me. Oh, we believe you
01:08:47
having something happen in the boat. I could have invited them. Come out and check it out. Join up.
01:08:54
>> Yeah. That didn't happen. >> Al was at the time you're in I think
01:08:57
you're 55 56 years old. about in my late 50s. >> So I remember hearing this at the time
01:09:05
in the the news um and it was sort of like a scratching my head like >> tit [laughter]
01:09:14
New Zealand's most wanted man. So get out. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] I think everybody
01:09:18
say the same thing. But I think they they thought that they >> the way they acted at that time was that
01:09:24
they hope they were hoping that the community will support them. and they were they were expecting a
01:09:32
support from within our community but they didn't >> actually went against them and uh
01:09:37
because it didn't it didn't just took me out there in the early hour but it
01:09:42
stopped every every man and woman and grandmothers and grandfathers in within our community and they uh searched the u
01:09:51
the corn bus and stop all the school kids there and u >> yeah it was a huge impact um that uh
01:09:58
that happened during that time. That was Yeah, >> that was today. 15th of uh October.
01:10:06
Today >> Oh, today's the anniversary. >> 18 years. >> Wow.
01:10:09
>> That was 18 years ago. [sighs and gasps] It >> still sits with you then.
01:10:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. Part of it. But I can't let it go. >> You [snorts] had to You can't carry
01:10:18
that. >> You You can't carry their [ __ ] you know, and uh and take you you got to let
01:10:24
it go and breathe and uh >> Yeah. So, >> yeah. So, so you've been called um an
01:10:30
activist over the years, which you I think you quite like. Um you've been called a radical as well, but being
01:10:34
being called a terrorist, like what did that do for you? >> Yeah. And not a nice thing there. I
01:10:40
mean, >> yeah, we debated that for for for a long time, you know, and uh and the fact that
01:10:46
the attorney general at that time >> didn't think that that was active
01:10:51
terrorism and uh the go the case go and u I should have been free like everybody
01:10:57
else, but they had to create something cuz they spend a lot of money just in what they thought was a
01:11:06
terrorist camp and uh I think Helen Clark was a prime minister. So during that period of time and uh they were
01:11:12
just uh supporting the notion of American imperialism and at that time during the bin Laden time during that
01:11:20
whole period of time and they told let's see what this new act can do and uh
01:11:26
>> yeah didn't work didn't work for them. >> What impact did that have on your mental
01:11:31
health? >> No it was okay. I I mean Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's in in a serious note. And um
01:11:43
yeah, and just get myself more focus around those issues. Hey, how how we deal with it, how we respond to the way
01:11:50
that the police behave within our community. It wasn't just a committee thing. And uh and the community had to
01:11:57
uh >> and Chuy had to uh pull pull this uh ficaro and that together. and uh and how
01:12:04
to handle that whole situation within our community in >> what about the impact on your faro? Was
01:12:13
it hard on your on your >> Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. And uh but it's unified us actually. And uh so
01:12:21
you know we we had to um uh I I I I have to have a conversation uh uh particularly with my boys three at
01:12:30
a time and that that they had to go out there and um and and be my voice >> uh outside and uh while I was detained
01:12:40
by the uh by the system at that time. Um, one thing I've noticed when when the
01:12:46
[ __ ] hits the fan in anyone's life, there's there's two sorts of people.
01:12:50
There's people that lean in and there's people that lean out. Did Did you find
01:12:53
out who your real friends were? >> Oh, yeah. Totally. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And
01:12:57
>> lots of lots of good friends or were you surprised at some people? >> I I have friends from all over the
01:13:02
world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a big huge response. Big huge response particularly from
01:13:07
Canada. And uh we we um uh we received money and money monary support there from
01:13:16
international >> and uh so um yeah a lot of people put a lot of uh time and energy and uh in
01:13:25
support of our of our case uh and so and it's Sykes and many other friends within the law faculty that uh
01:13:36
that I knew during that period of time They say so they all participate in the conversation.
01:13:45
>> You Yeah. You seem quite forgiving. E there's there's not a lot of um hatred
01:13:49
there or you don't seem to have a big chip on your shoulder. >> No, you you we we we
01:13:56
cannot afford to take upon other [ __ ] from our side. You >> so you have to uh for me I found that
01:14:04
out. So I can't carry some of that somebody else's crap >> because at the end of the day it wasn't
01:14:11
really my issue. They just create something that is not true. >> So I'm more believe in truth and that's
01:14:19
how I see things and that's how I deal with it. >> How did you not lose faith in our teda
01:14:24
at this time? >> Or did there were there moments during this whole process where you like what
01:14:31
is this? What is this place? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean when when you in that situation there's opportunity
01:14:37
for us to do something about it and how we respond to it and particularly around
01:14:42
what's happening today uh to government policy and what's happening to the
01:14:47
coalition government and the way they been um undermining the due process that have already been
01:14:57
um dealt with there 10 20 years ago. And then and then you got a government that
01:15:03
uh a small group of uh mean that decided to undermine all of that. >> It's done basically.
01:15:13
>> So I'm not going to lose sleep out of it because we just got to carry and do what
01:15:17
we believe what it is, you know, and uh and not to be distracted by their uh by their [ __ ]
01:15:26
Um so so off the back of that um that whole arrest for ter terrorism um you ended up being sentenced to some jail
01:15:35
time for firearms charges. >> Yes. What's the firearm? You don't go to
01:15:38
jail for small firearm charges. >> So >> you don't do time you might get a slap
01:15:43
on the hand for that and uh might get it fired or you might do PD work >> and uh but uh we got two and a half
01:15:51
years. >> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting because the the guy Rodney who was the judge
01:15:57
actually we've been communicating. Yeah. We've been having a conversation.
01:16:02
In fact, he bought a book. I signed a book for him, you know, and uh I caught up with him at the fundraising for the
01:16:10
uh for for the art and uh not very long ago, maybe about four or five months ago. Yeah. Interesting. you know, and
01:16:20
you know, I you know, he had a bit of a tongue tangy, bit of tears when we when we caught up there not very long ago.
01:16:28
>> And uh Yeah. I And I think that I I I had to I had to let go of that. Yeah.
01:16:35
Yeah. You know, and I think also for him. So I felt that with him. You had to let go and uh whatever that is that the
01:16:44
decision he made there to uh Yeah. Yeah. to um to incarcerate us. >> Yeah. So you got sentenced to just over
01:16:55
a couple of years, ended up serving I think nine months at So you Yeah. did nine months in Wakeia
01:17:01
>> and spend most of their time at home in uh reporting to correction >> uh once a week and uh
01:17:11
that was a bit of a ha and uh about that you know I had to keep reminding myself
01:17:16
I had to report on the Thursday >> uh I get anxiety you know trying to remember that I got to be there or else
01:17:22
you get locked up >> for not turning up and stick to the rules. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that was a bit of a pain.
01:17:31
>> What was what was that prison experience like? You've you've been incarcerated
01:17:34
many times, but I'm guessing mainly just short stints, like a night here and
01:17:37
there in police cells, but this is a like this is the best part of a year. Were you in there for a birthday or a
01:17:43
Christmas? >> Yeah, I was there for Christmas. I was there for birthday and um Yeah. Yeah.
01:17:50
Well, you know, because probably it took me two, three weeks to settle down [snorts] and uh and having those moments
01:17:58
of um never mind, you know, 2 and 1/2 years and nothing. I'm hanging out with
01:18:04
fol who've been there 10 years, 15 years a long time, you know, they're doing a
01:18:09
leg. [snorts] >> Yeah. And so, so I hang out with all all of them, all my relations, all people
01:18:16
that I met uh during that period of time. M >> was did anything good come out of that
01:18:22
time for you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh interesting >> but very you know I I wouldn't recommend
01:18:28
for anybody to be in that in that system. >> Very dehumanized you know in how they
01:18:35
treat you drop your pants down to see what you got hiding away there you know and all of
01:18:42
that. >> Yeah >> too. I don't like it. >> Yeah. Um, and I can't imagine it's
01:18:49
easier for an older man as well. You were in your, I suppose, late 50s at the time.
01:18:52
>> Yeah, I was in my late 50s. Was that before? Was that challenging? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um,
01:18:57
yeah, it can be, but I I I tried to move on. Yeah. Yeah. just be creative and uh
01:19:04
I I'm over it and so I'm going to do my time and uh and that was me >> and and make it work for you,
01:19:12
>> you know, and create your space and uh space of um Yeah. Yeah. Uh interesting.
01:19:20
I I enjoyed that period of time and I'm still having those conversation. I met
01:19:24
some really good people from there >> and some of those people there turned
01:19:28
out to my book launch there last night. >> A couple of them. >> I suppose with your wisdom and
01:19:34
experience you would have been a good sounding board for a lot of a lot of other
01:19:39
>> wheel and you hustle and wheel and deal with the within the system >> and uh they want me to be involved with
01:19:46
uh having conversation. and they're having trouble with some of the inmates >> and uh they want me to go and have a
01:19:52
conversation with those particular guys and I said well [snorts] I said yes I heard that I got some stuff there locked
01:20:00
up in your wardrobe can you uh release all of that I need the canvas yeah because I got mails from people saying
01:20:08
if I can receive my um you know the stuff that they sent across to me in in the prison
01:20:14
>> yeah yeah so they so we will and deal works for and works for me. >> Is is there anything that you thought
01:20:20
you'd miss that you didn't or vice versa >> where >> about being incarcerated for that length
01:20:25
of time? >> Um, no, no, no, no. But there was a moment in the early days I was really angry.
01:20:34
>> I was really angry terribly. Yeah. Yeah. And um took me 3 weeks to to get over it and
01:20:43
just let that one go, you know, in 2 and 1/2 years. I think I can I can do that.
01:20:48
No sweat. Yeah. And uh make it work. So I end up working on the farm. Uh yeah. And taking working on the farm there.
01:20:59
Uh go out and uh having some nice clay and mules out there out on the farm. Uh so we had the honor to be able to have
01:21:09
good kaya there and uh we're doing things that they don't don't normally
01:21:14
allow you do. >> Uh but uh the prison officer that was uh around there at that time was really
01:21:20
good to us. >> I suppose cuz they they trust you. You build that trust I guess.
01:21:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Did you did it change you?
01:21:32
>> Change me? >> Yeah. Did it change you at all? As I said at the beginning of this chat,
01:21:37
I feel like there's um there's there's um a change. And I don't know if it's if
01:21:41
it's just the age and the stage you're you're at in life as a man. I don't know
01:21:45
if it's um the mainstream media sort of understands your your reason for the
01:21:50
activism over the years or if it's something that's come from within you.
01:21:55
>> Yeah, I I I guess so. I I guess that there have been some changes. I I had to
01:21:59
make some changes, >> you know, personally, you know, I think for for most of us and I I guess that a
01:22:04
lot of guys we have those conversation, >> you know, guys are getting locked up for
01:22:09
10, 15 years for PE P dealers and all of that and they, you know, they talk about
01:22:17
um dumb stuff that they done, you know, and um yeah, so we kind of share all of those how we feel about it. you know,
01:22:26
you got 60 inmates. We all live in the same in the same place. We have our own little we rooms and uh every day we see
01:22:33
each other and we have our conversation and uh >> and and that's a help. It's a big help
01:22:39
there for us there. And of course that uh I was I become uh there's two or three
01:22:45
of us at the K mar within the wind of the talama >> and uh Yeah. Yeah. And so we um Yeah.
01:22:53
Yeah. So you you you you have to be smart and so you you can't be there afford to uh to be an [ __ ] yourself
01:23:00
to everybody else. And I think it's really important that we I uh we all have to change our attitude and our
01:23:06
behavior >> within the system to uh to live another day and enjoy the moments
01:23:12
>> and what what work for us >> mentally, psychologically and spiritually in every way we can uh to be
01:23:21
able to um don't allow to be yourself to be angry and being >> dumb >> I is
01:23:33
>> I appreciate you sharing that stuff. I'm sure it's not an easy chapter of your
01:23:37
life to reflect on. >> I I don't have a problem with it. I I really I think I don't have a problem
01:23:43
having those conversation, >> you know, in in here. I think it's really important for us to have those
01:23:49
voice. I think it's really important for us there to to have a voice to have a
01:23:54
say and and and and have the ability to articulate that whatever that um uh what's happening in your stomach in your
01:24:05
booku and what's happening in your heart, your feelings, your emotions uh in every way we can. But I think it's
01:24:13
important for us to be open about that >> those hidden secrets or um all of that.
01:24:20
Yeah. So it taught me that you know I think um being in that kind of space in that kind of space here in uh in in the
01:24:29
dumb situation >> become a um yeah is is a plus for me. >> Yeah. to be able to uh to learn and
01:24:37
manage that >> when I'm sure there was some um there were some um dark days when you're
01:24:44
incarcerated and I'm sure it was back then it was impossible to imagine that
01:24:48
you'd be nominated for Kiwi Bank New Zealander of the year in 2022 a contestant on Celebrity Treasure Island.
01:24:55
[gasps] >> Like the um >> Adler [laughter] >> Yeah. Like what the hell? like the stuff
01:25:01
that that's happened since then. >> The the re I don't know if you call it a
01:25:04
rebrand or whatever it is, but just the way that you're um perceived and thought
01:25:09
of, I suppose, by New Zealand, it's um it's wild. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I find it strange and
01:25:16
funny, you know, you can smile and laugh about it, you know, where it took that there for people to actually now kind of
01:25:24
see where you at. Yeah. And uh Yeah. I I never planned that but it happens. >> How can you you can't you can't plan
01:25:32
that. So >> no no no not at all but interesting period of time not only for me but I
01:25:38
think for the country >> you know to be able to to deal with those uh untruthful things that have
01:25:44
been spoke about us and uh and people okay true here we are. Did you [clears throat] this this Yeah, this
01:25:57
might be a wild correlation to make, but were there were there times when you're
01:26:00
incarcerated where you thought about Nelson Mandela >> all the time? You know, I cuz I I had
01:26:07
the honor and the opportunity to be able to meet up with uh a moment of handshake
01:26:12
with Nelson Mandela. >> Wow. >> Down at the uh Tonga Wayway. I actually
01:26:17
miss out because that day before that I went out to my box uh PO box 24 and uh and there was an invitation there to go
01:26:26
and meet up with Nelson Mandela. I was up in Oakuckland. I look at 6:30 and I look at my time was 6:30 but I was I was
01:26:34
4 hours away from the venue. So I run I think I might have called um John Mento.
01:26:41
You say, "Oh, I got the I just got the uh the notice and uh where's she going
01:26:46
to be?" And he say, "Go to too long away." Yeah. Yeah. So, I caught up with
01:26:52
Nelson Mandela with Eva Ricardo was over there, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we we had a bit of a
01:26:57
hard time getting in there because they had tight security, >> you know, and uh even my bloody relation
01:27:04
stopped me going in there, [laughter] you know, who was, you know, who was the security around there. And uh but I saw
01:27:12
Nelson B making his way towards the uh to the to the far to uh with u meet up with um
01:27:21
the queen at that time and u I yell out to them I have a message for you. They just
01:27:28
pulled him away. >> So I waited there till he come out there and an hour and a half later I yell out
01:27:35
to him but he came walked straight to me. Yeah. I have a message to you. don't
01:27:40
believe everything has ever been happen here in this country. So I gave him the note and handshake there. Did the hungi
01:27:47
and and that was me because um Nelson Nelson Mandela always been the hero, the man that we know of from
01:27:58
my early days of activism of the antithe movement and uh finally was a real honor
01:28:05
to be able to meet somebody like him >> and uh and that was me and many others.
01:28:11
M is he a man where just being in his presence you feel mana? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I guess so.
01:28:20
>> Yeah. I guess so. But even more so meeting up with uh the guy Wood who wrote the book on Steve Bo. Steve Bo
01:28:27
also somebody that I have a lot of respect to who was a young man at that time. >> Uh who got uh got killed.
01:28:35
>> Uh >> yeah. Beaten to death, wasn't he? >> Yeah. >> Was he beaten to death?
01:28:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. He was beaten up. M >> and uh Donald Woods was the one that
01:28:43
wrote a book about it and he exiled he used to be he used to own the Johannesburg newspaper in uh
01:28:50
Johannesburg and uh he managed to escape there from the regime and the regime accuse him of
01:28:57
uh allowing his staff there to use the same toilet and under the rule of apart they had to have separate toilet for
01:29:04
their workers one for white and one for blacks. >> Yeah. Yeah. So there's a way I mean of
01:29:11
course Nelson Mandela but also Steve BGO was also uh always been in in my frame of mind.
01:29:20
[sighs and gasps] >> This we've been going for like an hour and a half. This is this a great chat.
01:29:26
You've got good energy. Eh >> yeah. >> How what are you 73? 7 >> I'm 7 I'll be 74 April next year.
01:29:31
>> 74. So what what vices have you got these days? You quit smoking ages ago
01:29:36
and you're almost almost vegan vegan now. >> Yeah. 95% 95% I don't eat dairy
01:29:42
products, you know. And I think health thing is really important there for me to be able to maintain my physical
01:29:49
being, my wellbeing. Uh food food is I'm I love my food. >> You you and me, we've got something in
01:29:58
common. We both love sugar. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Bad sugar addiction.
01:30:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. addiction is terrible. You know, my taste, you know,
01:30:07
[laughter] it's really about discipline yourself and uh >> talking to yourself. I like it.
01:30:14
>> But unlike um unlike you, I'm I'm not a fan of Kenna. Hate the look, hate the
01:30:18
taste. Ex-girlfriend of mine was moldy. Should go diving for them and slurp them
01:30:22
raw on the boat. >> Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. Is that you? >> Yeah. No, that's me. [laughter]
01:30:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. Put it on toast. Penner toast sandwich. It's nice. I don't get
01:30:33
it. I'm not trying it. Do you still cycle? I heard you you love cycling. You
01:30:36
do like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um specialize [clears throat] 100k race. >> Oh, I never win race.
01:30:42
>> I I love it. I like endurance of cycling the 100ks. >> And do you wear you wear Lyra?
01:30:50
[clears throat] >> Do you wear like a [laughter] >> I could not imagine you like you're such
01:30:56
a you're such a fashionable guy. Like you love the top hats. >> You always dressed really well. I can't
01:31:02
imagine you in No one looks great in light. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I like it. You
01:31:05
know, because everybody get a bit of shock to see me there on my on my uh Scotty bike. The brand I ride is Scotty
01:31:14
and uh you know and um you know everybody kind of get a shock but I really love it and it's quite emotional
01:31:21
>> for me you know doing 100ks and you reach down to the end >> you know and you feel it. Wow.
01:31:28
>> I'll do it again. >> Sense of accomplishment. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of that and I do
01:31:32
it again and but I've been riding bikes for for many years >> you know and uh you know 10 speed bikes
01:31:41
and I bike all the way from I used to bike from Ruatuki there's a couple of days biking to um to Raglet
01:31:49
>> and uh I did a campaign with a couple of other guys there from Ruati to Aland and
01:31:56
uh that's a 4hour drive there on the car but they'll take us a couple of and make
01:32:01
our way up in Oakuckland. So, >> good exercise. >> Yeah. And when when did you quit the
01:32:07
siggies? >> Oh, a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's another I mean, I didn't start
01:32:12
smoking till I was in my 20s. >> Yeah. I didn't even know how to smoke
01:32:17
was just passion. >> Yeah. Stylish. Show. >> Look good. >> Yeah. Look great. Look great. You know,
01:32:23
I didn't want to look out of place there. The only fellow there does smoke sigy.
01:32:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I got addicted and but I did 10 years of that >> until I decided, you know, you back in
01:32:34
the days you smoking be or smoking the meeting house and >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, I decided to go
01:32:41
to the confiscation line and b my last packet of men and I threw that down on the confiscation letting it go. You
01:32:49
know, finding a way how to deal with that addiction. M >> what about the um the the love of um top
01:32:57
hats? Where did that begin? >> Oh, always love hats. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Everybody wear hats in our
01:33:02
community, you know, the farmers and uh Yeah. And I think I used to um I used to
01:33:10
swap hats with um swap eggs, bucket of eggs for uh John Wayne plastic hat. So I had one of those there for a little
01:33:19
while and I didn't like plastic. >> Yeah. And uh but um yeah, so I'm
01:33:24
fortunate to be um received I get a sponsor the Hills hat who uh who supply me with um with hats and uh over in the
01:33:35
last few years and >> so I got a whole wardrobe a wall just uh the different hats we wear every day.
01:33:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. I suppose g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g given your age almost
01:33:47
3/4ers of a century old um you must be like at a reflective stage of life now. Um what are you still working on as a
01:33:54
man? [snorts] >> Well I'm excited what we well what we looking at for the next next for the
01:34:00
next 10 years. >> I'll be well well done to my 80s. So, I'm looking forward to the future and uh
01:34:10
having the opportunity to be able we we invested money into uh buying the the the resource that we uh we needed to um
01:34:21
yeah and to allow us to be creative and having the new technology and and having
01:34:28
my uh my children and others that are part and parcel of a collective >> and for us to create the magic within
01:34:36
our community, building our community, >> uh, building a community particularly
01:34:40
around in Mata to the Fakatani area and particularly that we have the the first Ras Savaran the mayor of Fakatani Nando
01:34:50
and so having those those um smart people within our community. Um I'm looking forward there
01:34:59
what the future is for us there for mach for >> side and um yeah yeah I'm excited.
01:35:11
>> How do you personally define happiness now? And and has it changed over the
01:35:15
years? >> Yeah, happiness for me now at my age is having to be able now I know what
01:35:21
freedom is. Freedom to be able to be who I am. uh more focus on the creative side
01:35:27
of things that um trying to find a way. So I'm really happy at that moment. So I
01:35:34
don't really need to do you know I I have no regrets what what I what we have done there 40 50 years ago
01:35:44
>> and I think it's just shifting the energy and having the energy to be in
01:35:51
working collectively with a good team of people and uh and having those people on
01:35:57
board not just with my children but all of those are creative people and artists
01:36:02
there within our community not only that within our community in um Rui Fakatan in their area but um uh particularly
01:36:12
nationally and internationally. So you know we're having those conversation with people indigenous people in in the
01:36:20
USA, Canada and the Pacific. >> So I'm looking forward to that. >> Yeah. You were still keen to travel, eh?
01:36:27
You want to do more travel? I did I hear you say somewhere you want to go to the
01:36:30
Middle East? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I want to go to the Middle East. I want to go to
01:36:35
the Middle East to the place that my uncles that they went for this guy called Hitler, you know, and going
01:36:41
around to those area. I have traveled all around in Europe working with the with Leon and the M production. I done
01:36:48
that there for 14 years. Uh was a interesting period of time for me there. I learned hell a lot from that. And uh
01:36:57
yeah, so I'm still keen to travel. Um I'm keen to travel. We got some friends
01:37:02
coming across there from the uh from Canada, from BC. And uh so hanging out with those guys,
01:37:10
they keen to take me for for a bit of a cruise there on the truck to the Yukon, you know, and uh they have a um
01:37:18
satellite dish down the back of their truck so we can have a have a conversation with everybody while we on
01:37:23
tour. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> You're still living like a 20-year-old.
01:37:29
You said you said that you still feel like a 20-year-old sometimes. You're still living like a 20-y old.
01:37:33
>> I still feel that way. >> Yeah. Just with all the wisdom and intelligence that comes with
01:37:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still um Yeah. I still feel like that. I was 50 odd years
01:37:45
ago, you know. >> And I had the energy to be able to do that, you know. I had my little little
01:37:53
snooze there before coming here to meet up [clears throat] with you. So, and that's a big help. Yeah. So, I can go on
01:37:59
to now till 1:00 in the morning. >> So, you're like a phone. You just need a
01:38:04
little charge every now and then. >> Charge up. Charge up and I'll be right.
01:38:07
>> And um your your mockapuna, how how do you hope they see you as a man? >> You know, this that generation is just
01:38:14
amazing, >> you know, and give hope to us, you know, and uh they're very creative and uh in
01:38:22
our book launch last night, you know, you see all the their performance at their creativities. M so they part of
01:38:29
the collective they are part of the collective of our creativity and uh we must include the
01:38:36
new generation in fact they had to carry that so it's really good for visually
01:38:42
for us to be seen around hanging out with them and uh yeah I just love it you know and particularly last year on the
01:38:51
on the marful to2 was just phenomenal it's amazing you know of the energy and um you know these
01:39:01
are the kids that came through from the Kohangad and the Kurakopa they are the uh the result of the the work that we
01:39:11
have uh done 50 odd years ago for the language so here you are it's another generation all together uh they don't
01:39:19
carry out our trauma you know and uh yeah I'm just I'm really happy that uh
01:39:26
to be in uh stall in participation with this with this new generation. >> What are you most afraid of?
01:39:35
>> Afraid of us not doing anything. >> I think I'm afraid of that. Afraid of us
01:39:41
to see things that we see is not good >> and not responding and uh react and
01:39:48
finding a way. I'm afraid of that. M >> what about on a on a smaller more more
01:39:53
selfish scale like you um you know you've got so much to live for. Are you scared of dying?
01:39:59
>> No, I'm not. >> No, >> I've looked forward to that.
01:40:02
>> You know and um you know it's something we have to accept. Understand that
01:40:06
>> death is something cannot be avoided. >> We should not be afraid of that.
01:40:11
>> And uh >> yeah I plan that. I have those conversation with my kids about that
01:40:17
what what if they ask me dad what you want to do for your tongue I I want sh that out going to do because
01:40:25
it's a secret >> yeah so it's going to be interesting it's going to be fun
01:40:31
>> hopefully it's hopefully um yeah hopefully your lifespan is um similar to
01:40:35
Dame Finn Cooper like she had a good life right >> it feels like you're um yeah that's why
01:40:40
I sorry if that's a morbid question but you know I see someone like at your age
01:40:43
and stage of life and you've still got lots of energy and you're still planning
01:40:46
lots and there's still lots you want to do. So yeah, I wondered if you if you
01:40:50
feared death from that perspective just on, you know, on what you're going to
01:40:53
miss out on. >> No, I accepted death as a intricate part of our life. Yeah.
01:40:59
>> Yeah. Not something that we we should be free to talk about that look like,
01:41:05
>> what shape or form what that is. And um >> I I think is is a good planning. I I've
01:41:11
been talking and planning with my kids about it. M >> and um yeah, it's going to be really
01:41:16
interesting. So, >> we kind of have at fine arts and >> any regrets.
01:41:24
>> No regrets. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think I I I would have probably the only regret I had was
01:41:32
really, >> you know, I I could have spent more time with the with with our biological
01:41:38
father, >> you know, and kind of catch up, but we but he died young, you know. I I never
01:41:46
really had the opportunities to, you know, for him and I to sit on the table and enjoy our moments
01:41:54
>> instead of um, you know, allowed oursel to argue about dumb little things, you know, and it's
01:42:02
always interesting. It was important, I think, for a father and son to have those uh close network and probably
01:42:11
that's my only regret. >> Yeah. Is legacy something you think about? >> No.
01:42:17
>> No. [laughter] >> Not. Yeah, it isn't. >> No. >> Yeah. Why? Why not?
01:42:25
>> Well, I never thought about it. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. You don't think about those
01:42:28
things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's nothing about fake apps. >> Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because for
01:42:33
some people it's very important, but for others, I suppose, you know, that'll be
01:42:37
you'll be gone and that's up to other people to decide what it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean [snorts]
01:42:42
>> and I I guess that I I will remain always in the back of minds of many thousands other people
01:42:49
>> and I I have many of those conversation with those people on social media uh
01:42:55
that you know is some people I respond to some most of the time I don't respond
01:43:01
but um I meet people on the street at the airport you know on the street Queen Street everywhere and Um yeah yeah I
01:43:12
always put my time moments on my time you know and um you know passing through the airport and having those moments and
01:43:20
having those conversation and uh >> be respectful. >> Yeah. What do they say when people come
01:43:27
up to you in airports or on the street? >> They love the work that I do. They love
01:43:32
my art. They're like, you know, all the bits and pieces of you and and I guess
01:43:39
that it is the people. If we don't have those people, I wouldn't be here.
01:43:44
[snorts] >> Many of us the work that we do for you, you have an audience. M
01:43:48
>> we all have audience, you know, and um so we we we thank all of those people,
01:43:55
you know, because they are all an intricate part of change, you know, if they're not around there, well, just we
01:44:02
did nothing there for us. >> So, we just stay there and go out healing and
01:44:08
>> and enjoy the [snorts] other moments of our life. >> Oh, you mentioned um your art just
01:44:13
before and social media and it's um just sparked a memory in me. Um you who runs
01:44:18
your Tik Tok? Do you run your own Tik Tok or does someone run your own? >> Oh, no. I do most of it.
01:44:22
>> Yeah. >> Yeah, I do most of it myself. >> Cuz there was one that went um sort of
01:44:26
viral of you going to the um >> I do their painting their artwork down in their Flash Hotel in Wellington.
01:44:31
[clears throat] >> Yeah. The QT Museum. >> Yeah. Well, well, you know, I thought
01:44:35
about it. I thought really hard about it and my kids sort of kind of don't do
01:44:39
anything. Don't do anything. [laughter] You know, you know this. You can see it.
01:44:44
You can see it's me and my name is not Tama, I'm Tame. It's very simple name T.
01:44:52
>> Mhm. >> You know, and uh Yeah. But then then we planned it and and then Toy said, "Oh,
01:45:00
we can do it now. We'll video you." We had two cameras. Yeah. It was well done.
01:45:05
>> What I was going to ask you, was it a setup? Did you have the hotel staff
01:45:08
permission or No. >> No. No. They had no idea. [laughter] Yeah, I know. We we just pretending, you
01:45:13
know, we we create a video on it. It went viral, that one. >> It's so good. It's so good seeing you
01:45:19
get excited that it went viral as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we we just paint
01:45:23
it and just go there and make it. It's not vandalism >> become art on art. Yeah. And so I just
01:45:30
went in painted wrote it to me >> and that's it. and walk out. And so I
01:45:36
took a shot of the guy, you know, the guy down the door outside when I was walking out.
01:45:41
>> Have a good day. >> Yeah, I love that. >> No repercussions.
01:45:48
>> Oh, no, no, no, no. I thought the police going to go, you know, the guy who owns
01:45:52
the hotel, the collector, the art collector, the artist was really good. >> He actually apologized to me for the
01:46:00
mistake he made. But the guy that bought the work there uh he was a bit of an [ __ ] and uh but anyway uh
01:46:08
[clears throat] it didn't go anywhere ever then. >> Didn't go [snorts] anywhere apart from
01:46:13
viral. It went viral. >> It went viral. >> Yeah. Why has why have why has um New
01:46:18
Zealand society got your name wrong? As long as I can remember like I was born in 1973 and every time I've heard you
01:46:24
mentioned in the news conversation it's been pronounced Tama Tama. Yeah. >> Tama. Why? Uh they have a problem with
01:46:32
their ears. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess people have always get confused by ti. They're totally different sound. Tama
01:46:43
and tam are two two different people. >> Yeah. So people still call me tama.
01:46:50
>> T not tama. >> Thank you for clarifying that. Um when you look back on your life's work, what
01:46:58
are you most proud of? Well, I have no regrets and no apologies for all the for everything that I I have
01:47:07
participate and uh and I guess that the only thing I'm not proud of was certain part of my
01:47:16
behavior as a male deal with it and uh otherwise that's me. >> Did you want to elaborate on that or not
01:47:25
really? >> What do you mean? your you you said you some of your behavior as a male.
01:47:31
>> Yeah. Well, it's our dumb male things that we do in as a young person,
01:47:37
you know, not not very good. And uh like I said before, you know, I become a bully. Yeah. Yeah. And so you have to
01:47:46
think about that. Uh that's not good. Not just with with woman, but with men.
01:47:52
>> And uh >> Yeah. when when you been subjected to bulliness, you become a bully yourself.
01:47:59
Yeah. So, I'm not really happy about that that part of it. But I let that one
01:48:04
go, >> dealt with it, had a talk about it, had a conversation a period of time, and um
01:48:11
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. And then here I am. >> Well, we're all works in progress, eh?
01:48:18
Just trying to get better every day. >> Yeah. be kind to yourself >> and being a kind human being you know
01:48:27
and enjoy those moments >> you know and uh you know cuz I really believe that there is a place there for
01:48:34
all of us >> and it's it's it's okay to be different >> and we don't have to think the same we
01:48:41
can have different [clears throat] opinion we're allowed to have different opinion
01:48:46
uh we should be allowed to be critical uh about things that we he we're not happy with and uh and having those
01:48:53
voices. So >> that's me. >> Are you proud of yourself? >> Yeah, I think there's a a moment of it.
01:49:01
>> I'm happy that I think that I uh been involved over a long period of time and
01:49:06
and still happening. >> And if today was your final day on earth, uh what would your last wish be
01:49:12
for the future of our Ted? >> Smile, >> be good, and be kind. M >> it's a great country isn't it?
01:49:22
>> I love it. >> Yeah >> I love it. Alto is a really beautiful
01:49:26
place. >> I think there's opportunity for all of us there to be kind and
01:49:33
>> yeah be nice to each other you know and um yeah and uh and not to be distracted
01:49:40
and not to walk on the booby traps and the landmines that have been around us. >> Clear the pathways.
01:49:49
Hey, this has been a really nice conversation. It's been really cool. I'm
01:49:53
so grateful that you've been so generous with your time. Um, you've got you've
01:49:56
got very kind eyes. >> Yeah. >> They're eyes that have seen a lot and
01:50:01
and uh they could be bitter eyes, but they're not. They're very kind eyes.
01:50:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I guess so. That's that's a long
01:50:09
period of time doing that. M >> m >> and people used to question me about my
01:50:15
eyes and they couldn't look at me and I think I have calmed down over the years a period of time
01:50:23
>> you know um time I guess >> yeah what's been great um in this book
01:50:33
Mana by Tamei um it's a great book and you must be so proud of Yeah. Yeah. I I thank all of those, you
01:50:43
know, I can I thank all of the people and do that publisher for allowing us to be uh part and parcel in uh um creating
01:50:53
a space for me to be able to do this. >> And uh thank you to them, to the publisher, thank you to to the pano and
01:51:01
and everybody else. >> Um my story is their story. >> It's not about Tamiti. is about our
01:51:10
mana, about our sovereign rights, about having the voice in the space. It's about all that all and speaking the
01:51:18
truth. >> Um, anyone that's watching or listening to this, where can they get uh their
01:51:22
copy of the book? >> Yeah, you can go on uh tamei.co.nz and uh and my daughter-in-law task will
01:51:30
be there will respond to you immediately and uh and uh she seemed to receive all
01:51:36
of that um every day. Got your family doing all the work, eh? >> Oh, yeah. Oh, [laughter] it's a family
01:51:41
effort. It's a collective >> and available at all good bookstores, right?
01:51:45
>> Yes. >> Paper Plus, Wit Calls, Relay at the airport. >> Yeah.
01:51:50
>> The warehouse. >> Warehouse. Wow. Yeah. Warehouse. Thank you for your um invitation to be here on
01:51:57
your show. >> C. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast. >> Yeah. Tet.
01:52:03
>> Thank you. Not me.