00:00:06
Tame, welcome to my podcast.
00:00:08
>> Yes, good to be here, my friend.
00:00:11
>> It's wonderful to meet you. Um I I feel
00:00:13
like I know you. Um but this is the
00:00:15
first time we've actually met.
00:00:16
>> Oh, yes. Yes. And
00:00:18
>> you've got this beautiful new book out
00:00:19
called Mana, which is um God. Well, I
00:00:22
mean, it's beautiful.
00:00:24
>> Thank you.
00:00:25
So what's what's happened to you like
00:00:28
over the last I don't know 15 years
00:00:30
because it feels like you've gone from
00:00:32
being this sort of perceived villain to
00:00:35
being like a national treasure what's
00:00:37
happened is this is this
00:00:38
>> I don't know you know I guess is a it
00:00:41
happened for for everybody for all of us
00:00:43
time change not just for me I think this
00:00:46
um change of attitude
00:00:50
change of the way we see each other
00:00:54
and we hear each other and
00:00:59
yeah definitely they there they there
00:01:00
they there have been a shift I noticed
00:01:03
that over the years for me and uh
00:01:06
>> and also for me letting letting letting
00:01:08
go of those different layers you know
00:01:10
over a period of time you know and
00:01:12
sometimes we we cannot continue to be in
00:01:16
that kind of situation not holding on to
00:01:19
things you know and uh just breathe
00:01:23
>> I
00:01:24
So, is what you're saying it's a
00:01:26
combination of things like you've you've
00:01:27
you've softened as you got older. Um,
00:01:29
but I feel like the the me I feel like
00:01:31
the media the mainstream media perceives
00:01:33
you differently now. You're not public
00:01:35
enemy number one.
00:01:36
>> I think the mainstream media sort of
00:01:38
understands um the point you were trying
00:01:40
to get across over your entire life
00:01:42
really and
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>> sympathetic. I mean I I in many other
00:01:46
ways my my thinking hasn't changed. I
00:01:48
still remain and still remain to be how
00:01:53
I always been in my thinking that hasn't
00:01:56
changed. Uh I think that I um definitely
00:02:00
some other change for me really not not
00:02:05
really focus on responding to the um
00:02:11
to the dumb ass sort of kind of
00:02:12
conversation but more kind of focus more
00:02:16
about um where I am today.
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>> So um yeah and I think that through art
00:02:23
is made that change for me. uh is a new
00:02:26
platform for me and I've been on that
00:02:29
there for a few years now and uh that's
00:02:33
a big help.
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>> Are you happy?
00:02:36
>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
00:02:38
>> Yeah. Have you always been happy?
00:02:40
>> Yeah, I think I I was happy.
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>> I mean even in the last 50 years in
00:02:46
those early days and um it was an
00:02:49
interesting period of time. It was
00:02:51
exciting. It was funny. It was fun.
00:02:55
>> And stiring [ __ ]
00:02:57
>> Yeah, I've got that here. Yeah, you've
00:02:59
called yourself a [ __ ] stirer um over
00:03:01
the years. Are you still a [ __ ] stirer?
00:03:03
>> Oh, I probably still am in many ways
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[laughter]
00:03:07
in in the way
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be be more creative about how to u
00:03:13
present your your views and
00:03:16
>> other than shooting the New Zealand
00:03:18
flag. M although
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ex I've seen that video. We we're going
00:03:24
to get into this in more detail later
00:03:25
on, but I've seen that video god I don't
00:03:28
know maybe a hundred times, maybe a
00:03:29
thousand times. Like every time they
00:03:30
talk about Tamiti on the news, they they
00:03:33
play that.
00:03:34
>> And reading this book, I understand it
00:03:36
more now. Like you it was it was art. It
00:03:39
was an artistic stunt.
00:03:40
>> Yes. Definitely. And um I mean I
00:03:43
wouldn't do that in the middle of the
00:03:45
Queen Street or anything was in in our
00:03:48
own space
00:03:49
>> uh on the Amalai uh and that's always
00:03:52
have been the place of performance and
00:03:56
we uh we can do that and as um in the
00:04:01
area of Tapu a [snorts] sacred place and
00:04:04
uh yeah and um
00:04:08
yeah we do that actually our our our
00:04:11
tikana and our and our culture always
00:04:14
open for that. The art there is a place
00:04:18
there
00:04:19
to be able for us to do those things
00:04:22
that we need to express ourself
00:04:24
>> whether to [snorts] uh show your
00:04:28
buttocks or shoot a flag and um without
00:04:31
uh any judgments. I mean, people kind of
00:04:35
freak out that it just happened the the
00:04:38
television media camera was around there
00:04:40
during that period of time.
00:04:42
>> So, they built something about something
00:04:45
that is normal in in their culture.
00:04:49
>> What was what was the um occasion where
00:04:51
you showed your buttocks? Thankfully, I
00:04:52
couldn't find that on the internet.
00:04:54
>> Oh, yeah. That was the the
00:04:57
um when uh we um when the Wangi tribunal
00:05:03
second hearing in uh in their district.
00:05:06
And so we decided to um after two two or
00:05:10
three day conversation with uh hundreds
00:05:12
other
00:05:14
uh within the nation and we all decided
00:05:17
to take this uh poi [snorts] outside the
00:05:20
Amarai and take it to the confiscation
00:05:22
line. which was about a couple of
00:05:24
kilometers away from u from the
00:05:26
confiscation line and you you've seen
00:05:28
that on the book itself on the uh uh the
00:05:32
confiscation line. So we we took it down
00:05:34
there and um [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. So we
00:05:37
did a performance the burning of the
00:05:39
cars. Uh we have to um I guess that um
00:05:45
[snorts] it's a it's just a reminder to
00:05:47
remind oursel what happened 100 years
00:05:50
before that. And uh it's a is a way that
00:05:53
we can uh able to um uh demonstrate our
00:05:58
um you know our feelings and how Tui
00:06:03
felt about what happened
00:06:06
150 years ago and uh was a a moment that
00:06:09
we uh we needed to do that.
00:06:12
>> So there was
00:06:14
>> even um I saw this online uh one of your
00:06:16
own sons has called you a troublemaker.
00:06:19
Do do you regret any of any of your [ __ ]
00:06:23
stirring over the years or No,
00:06:24
>> no. No, not at all. No apologies for all
00:06:28
those moments.
00:06:29
>> Not at all. And uh Yep.
00:06:33
>> My kids were to say that and they
00:06:34
probably their mother told them don't
00:06:36
hang out with your father during their
00:06:38
period of time. [snorts]
00:06:39
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:40
>> Yeah. Is is is activist a negative word
00:06:43
or do you think the um the way that word
00:06:45
is viewed?
00:06:45
>> It's created by the media. It's a media
00:06:48
it's is a language created by the by the
00:06:50
media
00:06:51
>> and I guess I quite like the the word
00:06:54
activist is active and active person
00:06:57
within your community
00:06:59
>> and uh so probably uh I was at that time
00:07:04
and I still am.
00:07:07
>> And the media over the years um and also
00:07:09
authorities actually some politicians
00:07:11
and the police they've um painted you as
00:07:13
dangerous. Were you ever dangerous? Nah,
00:07:16
no, not at all. I mean, uh, [snorts]
00:07:20
we don't arrest people. We don't harass
00:07:22
people. Uh, others that, um, uh,
00:07:25
otherwise that the only people that we,
00:07:28
uh, give them a hard time, the people
00:07:29
that, uh, undermine our mana
00:07:32
>> uh that, um, marginalize the way that
00:07:36
uh, who we are and uh, well definitely
00:07:39
there will be a response and there has
00:07:42
been a response long before my time. So
00:07:44
it's a continuation of uh of resistance
00:07:48
[snorts]
00:07:48
>> from our ancestors
00:07:51
uh 100 years 100 years ago and uh right
00:07:55
up to my time as a as a young man
00:07:58
>> and a young kid at school, you know,
00:08:00
during that whole period of time.
00:08:03
>> Have you over the years sort of enjoyed
00:08:06
the notoriety?
00:08:08
>> Yeah. I didn't even know what the word
00:08:09
means.
00:08:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
00:08:12
Not at all. You know, I mean, I I I
00:08:14
wasn't I wasn't alone.
00:08:17
>> I mean, there many of us there that out
00:08:20
there. I wouldn't go out there just
00:08:22
alone by myself doing that.
00:08:24
>> You You have to You had to be part and
00:08:27
parcel of a a group of people.
00:08:29
>> Yeah. But I'm the one I always put my
00:08:31
hands. I'll do that.
00:08:32
>> Yeah. I'll be in the front line.
00:08:34
>> You're the ring leader.
00:08:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. You know,
00:08:38
[snorts] hang out with the others.
00:08:39
>> Yeah. I've got a I've got a photo of you
00:08:41
here from uh I think it's 53 years ago.
00:08:44
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. 53 years ago.
00:08:46
>> Yeah. That that will be 1972. This one
00:08:48
here.
00:08:49
>> Yeah. How
00:08:50
>> the lady I I would have been around
00:08:52
about 20. [snorts]
00:08:53
>> Yeah. And the lady she's from um to
00:08:56
Nani.
00:08:58
>> And uh in fact I I went to exhibition
00:09:01
there probably just not long after I
00:09:03
came out of jail about 2013 or something
00:09:07
like that. And yeah. Yeah. I didn't
00:09:10
realize she she was there as a young
00:09:12
woman. She would have been about this
00:09:14
>> uh about the same age as me and she was
00:09:16
a young photographer then.
00:09:19
>> When when you see that photo of a of a
00:09:21
young Tamiti, how do you feel? How how
00:09:24
are you this how the man sitting in
00:09:25
front of me now?
00:09:26
>> Yeah.
00:09:27
>> How is he the same? And how is he
00:09:28
different to that to that handsome young
00:09:30
man there?
00:09:32
Yeah, I think in you know I mean getting
00:09:34
older, looking older, you know, and um
00:09:38
[snorts] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm still
00:09:40
that person.
00:09:42
>> You feel the same?
00:09:43
>> Yeah.
00:09:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In every part of it,
00:09:47
the more matured, I guess.
00:09:50
>> I I'm the same. I'm I'm 52, so I'm a bit
00:09:52
younger than you, but sometimes uh I
00:09:55
feel like I'm 20.
00:09:56
>> And sometimes I walk past a mirror and
00:09:58
I'm like, "Holy, who's that? [laughter]
00:10:00
Praise that old man there.
00:10:02
>> Yeah. Well, I I still feel there.
00:10:04
>> Yeah.
00:10:04
>> I still remain to be sometime I feel 20.
00:10:08
>> Yeah. And sometime I do feel 70 73.
00:10:12
>> When do you when do you feel 73?
00:10:14
>> Yeah. Like about half an hour an hour
00:10:16
ago.
00:10:18
>> Have a sleep. We call it coral. And um
00:10:23
you know you have that a coral nap. and
00:10:26
uh for that otherwise I I feel like that
00:10:28
today
00:10:29
>> right at this moment. If
00:10:31
>> if you could go back in time and tell
00:10:32
that young man something, anything, what
00:10:35
would it be?
00:10:37
>> Yeah.
00:10:38
>> What would you tell him?
00:10:41
>> Yeah. Man in action, big boots.
00:10:44
>> Yeah. got to carry the boats,
00:10:47
>> you know, and um
00:10:50
avoid the walk on the booby traps, walk
00:10:52
on the landmines.
00:10:55
>> Yeah. Trigger it.
00:10:57
>> Yeah. And
00:10:59
going on the sideline. [laughter]
00:11:03
>> I'm still here.
00:11:05
>> Yeah, you're still here. Um and the the
00:11:08
the book's called Mana. Um, what did
00:11:11
mana mean to you like then during the
00:11:13
time of that photo compared to what it
00:11:15
means now?
00:11:15
>> I wasn't too sure. I haven't yet
00:11:17
discovered that you know you just go
00:11:19
through that mana is just another word
00:11:22
ku that that I know but
00:11:25
I really didn't really know the meaning
00:11:28
totally what it meant for me at that
00:11:30
time at at that age you know and still
00:11:34
finding my way around explore the
00:11:38
whatever was out there is because it's
00:11:40
all all that young person had I had a
00:11:43
gut feeling
00:11:45
>> there's a feel of I felt it. Uh yeah.
00:11:49
Yeah. And there's a there's a lot of
00:11:51
anger there and there. So finding a way
00:11:53
how to deal with that and uh how to uh
00:11:57
to confront that [snorts] to confront
00:12:00
that the issues that um that undermine
00:12:03
our manner,
00:12:05
>> uh our power, our voice. And uh when you
00:12:11
uh go through
00:12:13
when you go through that whole situation
00:12:16
of being, you know, I I I didn't know
00:12:20
what racism was about. But by the time I
00:12:24
was at that age there, I seen it.
00:12:27
>> I felt it. You know, I uh I never ever
00:12:30
knew that people hate you just the way
00:12:33
who you are, how you look, your skin,
00:12:35
the color of your skin. even the length
00:12:38
of your hair. The reason I grew my hair
00:12:40
at at that time and um [snorts] yeah and
00:12:45
the and the system around there is very
00:12:48
racist and conservative
00:12:50
>> and everything was geared up to be how
00:12:53
to be a parker and how how to be a park
00:12:58
air you know and uh pretty strange.
00:13:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I was not alone in the in
00:13:05
that situation.
00:13:08
If I was in your boots um with what you
00:13:10
just told me, I' i'd have a massive
00:13:12
[ __ ] chip on my shoulder. Did you
00:13:14
have a chip on your shoulder?
00:13:16
>> Were you angry?
00:13:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a point
00:13:19
of angry and Yeah. It's called we call
00:13:22
it. It's a gut feeling.
00:13:24
>> Yeah.
00:13:25
>> You know, and you
00:13:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And how how do you um how
00:13:30
you um put those that energy [snorts]
00:13:34
and the use of that energy and put out
00:13:36
there. So you you meet up with a whole a
00:13:40
whole lot of different people mai park
00:13:45
activists there they come from the first
00:13:47
world war the second world war. So we
00:13:50
were fortunate to have all of those
00:13:53
idealist and idealistic people around
00:13:57
during that period of time. So that was
00:13:59
a big u
00:14:00
>> a big help for us there processing those
00:14:03
political thinkers.
00:14:06
[snorts and sighs]
00:14:06
>> What do you think has been the best
00:14:08
decade for Tamayi?
00:14:10
>> Oh all of it.
00:14:11
>> There's not one that stands out as the
00:14:13
best decade of your life.
00:14:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed the 70s. The '7s
00:14:17
was great. The music is always great.
00:14:19
>> 1970s.
00:14:20
>> Yeah. The the 70s all day per the 70s,
00:14:22
you know, the hippie days.
00:14:25
uh Jimmy Hendendrick music you know and
00:14:28
uh really you know a really interesting
00:14:31
period of time for you know for for
00:14:34
everybody in this country and that was a
00:14:36
big movement uh mobilization not just um
00:14:40
here uh nationally right throughout but
00:14:44
internationally
00:14:45
>> and what's been happening of um of
00:14:48
consciousness
00:14:49
of awareness politically with socialism
00:14:54
uh of the socialist ideas, communism.
00:14:58
Um yeah, it was really interesting for
00:15:00
me. So, uh I kind of got involved in
00:15:03
that.
00:15:04
>> In the 70s, that's with when this photo
00:15:05
was taken. Were you you're a handsome
00:15:07
dude? Were you a ladies man?
00:15:09
>> I don't know. [laughter]
00:15:13
Yeah, I tried to keep away from that.
00:15:15
>> Okay, fair enough.
00:15:17
>> Um well, you seem like we've only been
00:15:20
talking for 15 minutes. Um but we're
00:15:21
sitting at a table less than a meter
00:15:23
away from each other and you seem just
00:15:24
really you have this real calm presence
00:15:27
about you. So it seems like you're in a
00:15:29
good um age, stage and place of life
00:15:31
now.
00:15:33
>> Yeah, I I always have been.
00:15:35
>> Yeah. you know, you you have to be you
00:15:37
had to be um clear in your thinking,
00:15:41
although at times it's it can be quite
00:15:44
confusing
00:15:46
and uh not not only the the struggle
00:15:49
within dealing with the system, but
00:15:51
dealing with us, your own people
00:15:53
>> going through that u what's been
00:15:55
happening within our community [snorts]
00:15:58
uh dealing with our addiction, dealing
00:16:00
with uh just normal things that um but
00:16:04
uh but taking care of that you know and
00:16:07
and dealing with those situations and be
00:16:10
responsible
00:16:11
in the way that we need to shift
00:16:14
whatever that is and uh so that's the
00:16:18
exciting part of
00:16:20
>> of uh be working within your community
00:16:23
and working on your mai and working with
00:16:26
your family and uh and confronting all
00:16:29
of those situation that uh that we think
00:16:32
we need to debate and and have a convers
00:16:34
conversation about that.
00:16:38
>> There's so much to talk about with your
00:16:40
story. Um, we go right back to the
00:16:42
beginning, the childhood years. Eh, what
00:16:44
what is what is your earliest memory?
00:16:47
>> I can always remember [clears throat]
00:16:50
[snorts] well as a little kid standing
00:16:53
underneath the table and always remember
00:16:56
reaching out trying to reach out to get
00:16:58
my arms. You know, when you're a little
00:16:59
kid, I don't know. I could have been
00:17:01
two,
00:17:02
>> you know, I could have been three year
00:17:04
old and always fascinated about being
00:17:08
under the table and see but we never eat
00:17:11
on a table. All our eating happens on
00:17:14
the floor
00:17:15
>> and uh yeah, so I always I can still see
00:17:19
myself as a little kid doing doing that
00:17:21
and [snorts] I'm finding my way and
00:17:23
what's going on up there
00:17:26
>> on the top of that table.
00:17:27
>> What are the adults doing? What's
00:17:29
happening up there? So I I I remember
00:17:31
all of that. [snorts]
00:17:33
Uh I I always remember that because we
00:17:37
didn't have power in the house. So we
00:17:39
always have um kerosene lights or uh
00:17:42
candle lights. And uh so we um we
00:17:47
learned to um to work in the dark. Yeah.
00:17:51
And we didn't have television, not many
00:17:54
distractions. So we spent a lot of our
00:17:56
time out in the out in the open fields
00:17:59
in the hills working with animals,
00:18:02
[snorts] chicken, ducks. So we had all
00:18:05
of that working in the gardens
00:18:08
and uh and I always remember we we had
00:18:12
heaps of food. We didn't go out shopping
00:18:15
at uh pack and save or anything like
00:18:17
that. We didn't and all of that was was
00:18:20
in front of us. And uh but all I know is
00:18:25
so you got to work
00:18:26
>> hands-on stuff. So you got to go out
00:18:29
there and dirty your hands and [snorts]
00:18:32
do your feet. We didn't really have um
00:18:35
uh much footwear during that period of
00:18:37
time. So yeah, so you you learn to cope
00:18:41
with the elements around you cuz when
00:18:44
you're a kid there in our community in
00:18:47
in my time there, we weren't allowed as
00:18:50
as you a kid there, not allowed inside
00:18:52
the house. So we spend our time out in
00:18:55
out in the open in the field and find a
00:18:58
a sacred place there where you can have
00:19:00
a little nap there in the in the
00:19:02
[snorts] afternoon or or hide away from
00:19:04
the old man.
00:19:08
Yeah, there's uh some stuff in your book
00:19:10
which um thankfully you're too young to
00:19:12
remember. Um but you're born on a train.
00:19:15
Um yeah, your mom, your biological mom
00:19:17
gives birth to you on a train. Uh which
00:19:19
um I would say in 1950s New Zealand,
00:19:21
you're probably lucky to survive that.
00:19:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:25
>> Like without any medical apparently we
00:19:28
lost our twins.
00:19:30
>> Yeah. They're the oldest and they um and
00:19:33
then I think that the old lady is quite
00:19:36
a common thing about in within our faro
00:19:40
and losing the child during that period
00:19:42
of time.
00:19:43
>> Mhm.
00:19:43
>> Uh these days uh never happens. So you
00:19:46
you got the availability of of [snorts]
00:19:49
better health system I guess and uh than
00:19:52
there was particularly for uh for mai
00:19:55
for mai woman
00:19:57
>> at that time
00:19:59
>> and there there's a quote in the book
00:20:00
from you um at the age of two I was left
00:20:04
at the house of the couple who bought up
00:20:05
my father the old lady said they found
00:20:08
me when they got back from milking one
00:20:10
day in a nail box on the table. Um I I
00:20:14
what what is a nail box? I googled it.
00:20:16
Is it a like a crate?
00:20:17
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was. It's a little All
00:20:18
the nail box is a real kind of solid box
00:20:21
there where you have all your nails
00:20:23
and uh so I I would have been a very
00:20:26
tiny Well, look at me. I'm a little
00:20:28
short ass. And uh and so uh I would have
00:20:31
been a a little tiny baby during that
00:20:34
period of time.
00:20:37
>> So So the couple that raised you as
00:20:39
their son, they just arrived home one
00:20:41
day and you were there like you'd been
00:20:42
>> Yeah. Apparently. Apparently. I didn't
00:20:44
know that. And I didn't found that out
00:20:46
found out about that till I was about
00:20:48
18.
00:20:50
>> And I go,
00:20:52
>> "Yeah, you know, and uh I'm not too sure
00:20:55
who shared that with me." I would have
00:20:57
been the old lady who got it.
00:20:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so every every now and
00:21:02
then [sighs]
00:21:04
she had an issue about me, you know, and
00:21:06
then she would throw things out
00:21:10
blah blah blah blah and having a go me,
00:21:13
you know, and she kind of reminded me,
00:21:16
you kind of confused me that if you
00:21:18
don't if you carry on with that
00:21:19
behavior, I'm going to send you home.
00:21:22
Yeah. Yeah. And I said, "What the hell
00:21:23
you on about?
00:21:24
>> This is my home."
00:21:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you get a
00:21:27
conf if you if you're a child being
00:21:29
found out or being adopted by you know a
00:21:32
staller family [snorts]
00:21:34
>> rather confusing for for many of us and
00:21:37
uh being raised by by grandparents
00:21:40
>> and uh you know and to have those
00:21:43
moments with you. So I felt that really
00:21:47
confused and I kind of thinking what
00:21:49
what the hell was that all about?
00:21:53
So you you ended up having um having a
00:21:56
relationship or contact with your
00:21:57
biological parents. Yes. Did did you
00:21:59
ever chat to your mom and and [snorts]
00:22:01
ask her why?
00:22:02
>> Uh actually I I tried to more more so
00:22:06
the conversation more so with my with
00:22:08
our biological father. Uh but he did had
00:22:12
an issue with me, you know, and uh
00:22:16
uh yeah, I think I I wanted to get I
00:22:20
didn't I was in my 20ies and uh
00:22:24
excuse [cough and clears throat] me
00:22:26
[snorts] and with my um with the mother
00:22:28
of my children and uh I said to her that
00:22:31
um I think we um I think it would be
00:22:35
good for us there to go to Hamilton. So
00:22:37
we we hitched from Ruati over to
00:22:40
Hamilton and I just went down and said
00:22:43
to the old man going to come and stay
00:22:45
with you but they only last about 3
00:22:47
weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So um Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:51
Yeah. Yeah. You know he he he was just
00:22:54
one of those guys who who was afraid
00:22:57
because we shared the same name. His
00:22:59
name was Tammy. He didn't like the fact
00:23:00
that um that he heard I was doing the
00:23:03
fake quarter a speech there on the mai
00:23:06
>> and all of that and I thought that
00:23:09
I confronted him and I said to him
00:23:15
I don't know why he talked to me like
00:23:16
that and you know because the old man
00:23:19
that brought you up and also bought me
00:23:21
up he never ever at any time saying
00:23:25
anything like how you spoke to me.
00:23:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And so um yeah. Yeah. And so
00:23:31
we we kind of I kind of kept away from
00:23:33
him for a long time until
00:23:37
Yeah. So he kind of let go of some of
00:23:39
those issues. And
00:23:41
>> yeah, we become friends. Yeah. I I
00:23:45
wanted to have a relationship with the
00:23:46
father.
00:23:47
>> I wanted to know about him. I wanted to
00:23:51
have a close relationship with him. And
00:23:54
that's what I was looking forward to,
00:23:56
you know. And uh it didn't happen for me
00:23:59
in the period until till he was feeling
00:24:03
you know really sick
00:24:04
>> in his early 60s you know he had trouble
00:24:07
with his heart and um yeah I had to let
00:24:11
go. In fact it was his brother who
00:24:13
actually came over to um grab me and
00:24:16
took me down when he was really sick. He
00:24:18
was on his way out and uh so yeah so I
00:24:23
decided to go and see him in the
00:24:24
hospital. So he last another four or
00:24:26
five years after that. [snorts] So we
00:24:28
got on med after that.
00:24:30
>> Did you before you made that connection
00:24:33
did you have like a sense of aband what
00:24:35
they call abandonment issues or
00:24:36
anything?
00:24:37
>> No.
00:24:38
>> No.
00:24:38
>> No. I'm actually privileged. I'm lucky.
00:24:41
>> Yes.
00:24:42
>> In the way that I was also raised by the
00:24:44
same person that raised him.
00:24:45
>> Right. uh for the reason was that um uh
00:24:49
I was able to uh
00:24:53
to know the language, to know the
00:24:55
culture and uh I would have been a
00:24:58
different person. Mhm.
00:25:01
>> I think that uh being raised by the old
00:25:03
people was uh was a blessing for me.
00:25:06
>> Mhm.
00:25:07
>> And uh never regretted that. And I it's
00:25:10
in fact I I thank my mom and dad for
00:25:13
placing me in the mailbox and hang out
00:25:16
in
00:25:16
>> in the two-way country and here I am
00:25:18
today.
00:25:20
>> You've got so much gratitude, don't you?
00:25:23
>> What do you mean?
00:25:24
>> Like you Yeah. You're so thankful.
00:25:26
You're glass half full, not a glass half
00:25:28
empty.
00:25:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we can turn
00:25:30
that we can turn that around
00:25:33
>> rather than creating something that is
00:25:36
you know and um you know uh in a in a
00:25:40
negative way
00:25:42
>> and I think we can always see good
00:25:44
things that come out of that.
00:25:45
>> Yes.
00:25:46
>> Even in a negative negative situation in
00:25:49
a chaos situation
00:25:51
>> and uh cuz we learn a lot from a chaotic
00:25:54
situation.
00:25:55
>> So I learn a lot from that. Is that an
00:25:58
ability you have like with generally in
00:26:00
life just to to find the good and and
00:26:03
peace? Yeah,
00:26:04
>> that's that
00:26:06
[clears throat]
00:26:07
>> that's that's a big
00:26:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. But there's a real fine line
00:26:12
[clears throat] between good and bad
00:26:13
[cough]
00:26:14
>> and so you learn from all of that.
00:26:17
>> So you have to experience the negativity
00:26:20
and to be able to understand what's good
00:26:23
for us in front of us.
00:26:25
>> Yeah. Because there's that saying, I
00:26:27
don't know if you've heard the saying,
00:26:28
every cloud has a silver lining.
00:26:30
>> But some sometimes it's hard to find the
00:26:32
silver lining, isn't it?
00:26:33
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:33
>> Can be hard.
00:26:34
>> Well, you feel it,
00:26:36
>> you see it, you have a color to it, you
00:26:39
know,
00:26:40
>> and um interesting.
00:26:44
>> So, um you grew up speaking to only, no
00:26:48
English,
00:26:49
>> and then you go to school and you get
00:26:51
punished um for speaking to.
00:26:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that didn't
00:26:56
happen till later years probably at um
00:27:00
in primary school. We uh we've been
00:27:03
subjected to that.
00:27:05
>> Uh we've been subjected to the uh the
00:27:08
racist kind of attitude that occurred
00:27:10
during that period of time. But uh
00:27:15
you kind of know that um that was
00:27:17
normal.
00:27:19
But I didn't like it. All of us didn't
00:27:20
like that what was happening in France.
00:27:22
>> Yeah. normal just cuz you didn't know
00:27:24
any different and you're just kids being
00:27:26
told what to do.
00:27:27
>> There's a lot of physical violence, you
00:27:29
know, from the system. You get strapped,
00:27:31
you get hit. They have these big thick
00:27:34
long strap there and the belt. They're
00:27:37
whippy with it, you know, and
00:27:40
>> whippy whatever they trying to, you
00:27:42
know, they give you the bash,
00:27:44
>> you know, and they give you the best
00:27:46
there for not knowing things or not
00:27:50
being
00:27:51
um uh not being in uh in the
00:27:54
conversation with them or not saying
00:27:57
anything, you get to the point that
00:28:00
I didn't say anything. And even though I
00:28:03
know when when they ask me a question,
00:28:05
even though I know about it, do you know
00:28:08
anything about it? I just go like this.
00:28:10
Just my shoulders.
00:28:12
>> Just just cuz you don't want to get in
00:28:14
trouble.
00:28:14
>> No. No. I just didn't didn't feel like
00:28:16
having a conversation.
00:28:18
>> Yeah.
00:28:19
>> You know, I was like that.
00:28:21
>> I really didn't want to have a
00:28:23
conversation. H.
00:28:25
So the the punishments that were meed
00:28:28
out for speaking today in class when
00:28:30
you're told not to um you're either
00:28:32
allowed to go and shovel up [ __ ] or
00:28:35
write lines.
00:28:36
>> Yeah. 100 lines on the blackboard
00:28:38
>> like Bart Simpson.
00:28:40
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:41
>> On the on the opening credits of the
00:28:43
>> you had to count and then not only that
00:28:44
you do your 100 lines that afternoon. So
00:28:48
we all appeared. I wasn't alone in that
00:28:50
situation. So you appeared in front of
00:28:52
the classroom. So when the kids walk in
00:28:55
and all look at you and they and then
00:28:58
then you had to go and count each of the
00:29:01
words there. One 2 3 4 in front of the
00:29:05
class. That's all part of the
00:29:06
punishments,
00:29:08
you know, and trying to shame you.
00:29:10
>> And uh
00:29:13
>> yeah, it kind of worked. So we we had a
00:29:15
go at it. We tested out. We had a
00:29:17
conversation about it. We we decided no
00:29:20
bug, you know, we're just going to car
00:29:25
and um yeah, so after a while after you
00:29:29
done 300 lines in one wheelbarrow
00:29:32
[snorts] and uh and you said and then
00:29:36
you go like this.
00:29:38
>> Mhm.
00:29:39
>> Quiet.
00:29:40
>> So I did.
00:29:42
>> Yeah. And they stuck in the back of my
00:29:44
mind for for many years. And then one
00:29:47
day I thought about talking about that
00:29:51
creating art around that
00:29:53
>> started writing 100 lines. [snorts] So I
00:29:56
done a series of work called blackboard
00:29:59
and the reason I used the the work
00:30:01
blackboard was we had to write 100 lines
00:30:04
on the blackboard. So my first
00:30:06
exhibition that I uh solo exhibition was
00:30:09
held here in the archold
00:30:12
uh gallery here down in Grayland.
00:30:15
[snorts] Uh that would have been about
00:30:16
in um
00:30:18
>> yeah it wasn't too far wasn't too uh
00:30:21
wasn't wasn't long ago.
00:30:24
[snorts]
00:30:25
[sighs]
00:30:26
>> But how did how did that make you feel
00:30:28
at the time? So so here you are you're
00:30:30
this little boy. Um the only language
00:30:32
you know iso and you get told you can't
00:30:35
I'm just trying to put myself in your
00:30:36
shoes. I'm imagining I'm in a school
00:30:38
somewhere and I get told I can't speak
00:30:40
English but it's the only language I
00:30:41
know. Did did it make you feel angry,
00:30:43
confused? vulnerable.
00:30:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Because I I
00:30:48
wasn't alone, you know. So, you gota
00:30:50
imagine it wasn't just about tamichi,
00:30:52
you know, but what was happening within
00:30:55
the school system, you know, and uh how
00:30:58
affect affected us in because we talked
00:31:01
about that.
00:31:02
>> Uh it wasn't that I didn't I understand
00:31:05
English very clear.
00:31:07
>> Okay.
00:31:07
>> Yeah. you know, not that I I mean
00:31:10
there's a different I can if I have a
00:31:12
conversation with you in English, I have
00:31:14
difficulties having a conversation with
00:31:16
you, but actually I can read,
00:31:18
>> you know, and uh you know cuz our family
00:31:21
um our faro is a farmers. So um you know
00:31:25
they got you know read all the they got
00:31:28
to understand the language. So they we
00:31:31
all understand the language. Uh but
00:31:33
having the conversation
00:31:36
It was that that's all of an exercise
00:31:38
all together.
00:31:39
>> If you if you trace your steps back is
00:31:42
is that sort of the moment or the period
00:31:44
where the activist was born?
00:31:46
>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think they
00:31:48
that came through there and but uh we've
00:31:51
been reminded over a period of time uh
00:31:54
that activism come from many long time
00:31:56
through the resistance of our
00:31:58
great-grandfathers and grandmothers.
00:31:59
>> Yeah. They resisted the um the um you
00:32:04
know the uh the system right through
00:32:07
through that the invasion of our
00:32:09
community the burning down of the homes.
00:32:12
uh what what what happens there when uh
00:32:16
when our when some of our community were
00:32:20
issued with an eviction notice and uh
00:32:23
the same thing that happened in the gas
00:32:25
land and um happened within our
00:32:28
community uh over nearly 200 years ago
00:32:32
>> and then we got pushed out literally
00:32:34
physically got pushed out. [snorts] So
00:32:37
our family are the
00:32:40
the survivors of that and uh here now
00:32:44
telling the stories, sharing the story
00:32:46
here today.
00:32:50
So back in primary school, why didn't
00:32:52
you why didn't you just become like a
00:32:53
good a good little a good little sheep
00:32:56
and do do as you were told? Like where
00:32:58
did that strength and courage of convict
00:33:00
conviction come from for you to say
00:33:02
actually no, this is [ __ ] I'm not
00:33:04
going to I'm not going to do what you
00:33:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know. You know,
00:33:08
you you you you learn through your first
00:33:11
10 years of your life
00:33:13
>> and you learn through that and there
00:33:16
just something not quite right.
00:33:18
>> You know, as a child, you learn that
00:33:19
your eyes, I had eyes, I can see things
00:33:22
>> and you can see good things and you can
00:33:25
see not too good things. You can hear
00:33:27
things. So a lot of my learning is
00:33:30
visual [snorts] and uh so you see it you
00:33:33
look at it and sometimes you can turn a
00:33:35
blind eye what you see
00:33:37
>> you just look somewhere else I didn't
00:33:39
see that did you see that no I didn't
00:33:41
>> what you talking about you know that
00:33:44
>> and uh to avoid those situation
00:33:48
but I didn't but I didn't had a voice
00:33:51
then but I kept it there in mind you
00:33:54
know quietly
00:33:56
and [snorts]
00:33:57
um and just having those little chats
00:33:59
with all the other kids that around us,
00:34:01
>> you know, and um we we didn't had a we
00:34:05
didn't had any idea how to deal with it,
00:34:07
how to respond to the things that we
00:34:10
really didn't like it. And um [snorts]
00:34:12
yeah. Yeah. And I guess that uh our
00:34:14
first response to the uh to the we were
00:34:17
told there in early days not allowed to
00:34:19
speak Molly on my school grounds and uh
00:34:21
we thought I don't know about that. So I
00:34:25
had a chat with the old man about it and
00:34:26
he said
00:34:31
you have to listen to the to the box
00:34:33
meaning the teacher and uh I wasn't I
00:34:38
wanted to hear something else you know I
00:34:41
um I went I wasn't too happy about what
00:34:44
he what he said to me
00:34:51
something I um heard about you which I
00:34:53
had no idea this was Um quite an
00:34:55
epiphany. You were a really good
00:34:56
wrestler. Like you could have um you
00:34:58
could have made it to the Commonwealth
00:34:59
Games.
00:35:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. I had plans for that in the
00:35:02
early because I I like like it's is an
00:35:06
old ancient art wrestling
00:35:10
they called it.
00:35:11
>> And uh yeah, it was fun. I was really
00:35:14
good at it.
00:35:15
>> Yeah. So I went to train with the guy
00:35:18
that was uh in the New Zealand Olympics
00:35:20
in the Commonwealth Games.
00:35:23
uh they were part of the uh Ken Coppers
00:35:25
club there that um uh that was um
00:35:30
created back in the uh first world war
00:35:32
and for a lot of young people back in
00:35:34
the day. So I joined up with with that
00:35:37
and uh yeah and then I end up to be in
00:35:40
the curtain races for the uh uh for the
00:35:44
professional wrestlers John the Silva
00:35:46
and all that.
00:35:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. So it was fun. It was big
00:35:50
time. Britain were big time in those
00:35:51
days. [snorts]
00:35:53
>> And uh in fact I I was the um 10 stone
00:36:00
back in 10 stone the way 10 stone. So I
00:36:02
was the um South South Island Canterbury
00:36:06
champ during that period of time.
00:36:08
>> Wow.
00:36:08
>> So they uh found that I I had potential
00:36:11
back then.
00:36:12
>> And I like wrestling because it's a bit
00:36:14
different to boxing. You know, in
00:36:16
boxing, you got to hit somebody. And
00:36:18
with wrestling, you just disarm people,
00:36:21
flip them on the ground, and flip them
00:36:24
over. And uh and it's okay. You just
00:36:26
hold on, lock them. And uh I like that.
00:36:29
And um I did boxing there as a younger
00:36:33
person. And after being bullied by kids,
00:36:36
I got um we got taught by uh Second
00:36:40
World War uh Navy veteran guy from
00:36:42
Tanya.
00:36:44
>> And uh and the three of us there used to
00:36:47
go on the horseback on on the horseback
00:36:49
to Tanya. It's about 5 miles away from
00:36:52
their village. And u
00:36:54
Yeah. Yeah. So I learned the art of um
00:36:58
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's all about
00:37:00
maintaining your mana
00:37:02
>> and uh taking away the fear. Yeah. Cuz I
00:37:05
didn't I didn't know how to deal with
00:37:07
bullies
00:37:08
>> and I become a bully myself in the end.
00:37:13
>> Yeah. The move to Christ Church um after
00:37:16
school that was to become like a a
00:37:17
decorator like like a house painter.
00:37:20
>> Yeah. What was what was that like for
00:37:22
for a young moldy kid going to really
00:37:24
>> Yeah. I'm really interested in being in
00:37:26
the uh my interest in the architecture,
00:37:29
>> you know, in the in the framework and
00:37:32
many of the uh the tutors that taught us
00:37:35
to Peter come from u come from Scotland,
00:37:39
from uh the Netherlands, from all over
00:37:42
the world
00:37:43
>> and I was really interested in in that.
00:37:46
I had no idea what I was going for.
00:37:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I was really interested
00:37:51
in that because you spend the whole
00:37:53
year. It's all part of the program. But
00:37:55
for my young maldis like us living in
00:37:58
the coming from the rural area and uh so
00:38:01
we uh geared up there to uh uh to to to
00:38:06
go through to go through that. Yeah, it
00:38:08
was a really interesting period of time
00:38:10
about learning about what you liked in
00:38:13
the color of your house and your
00:38:16
wallpapering.
00:38:17
>> We we did everything. We did everything.
00:38:20
these days he's just a painter but we
00:38:22
did everything from um uh you know you
00:38:26
know living in crisis you know you know
00:38:28
all the old buildings and and all of
00:38:31
that so we learned all the art of um
00:38:34
interior decorators back in those days
00:38:36
>> were were you were you quite a minority
00:38:39
down there or was it was there a bit of
00:38:40
a moldy community
00:38:42
>> oh huge
00:38:42
>> was there was in Christ
00:38:43
>> church yeah yes a huge mi community
00:38:46
[snorts] uh there was a nahoo community
00:38:49
Uh uh there was hundreds of us of the uh
00:38:53
Yanu Mai that went down to Christ
00:38:55
Church. Uh but Christ Church was a quite
00:38:58
a racist town.
00:39:00
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:00
>> So it's always had that reputation. Eh
00:39:02
was is it was it was it a racist town?
00:39:05
>> English town. Everything was designed
00:39:07
making crisis as the English town
00:39:11
outside London or outside [snorts]
00:39:13
England. So they want to build this uh
00:39:15
empire or the British Empire and in to
00:39:20
um Yeah. Yeah. to uh to capture you and
00:39:24
they want to think like them, walk like
00:39:27
them, dress like them
00:39:30
>> and uh that was all part of the plan.
00:39:34
But you being a young man down there who
00:39:36
was um strong and fit, good at
00:39:38
wrestling, done a bit of boxing, um did
00:39:40
people leave you alone or did you
00:39:42
experience much in the way of racism?
00:39:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I was super fat.
00:39:45
>> Yeah.
00:39:45
>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, and uh I I was
00:39:48
super fed there, but you you go through
00:39:50
that whole period of time and I remember
00:39:53
uh Canterbury team was invited to go and
00:39:56
meet up with the uh with royalty with
00:39:58
Princess Anne and I remember I hired a
00:40:02
suit there to go for that occasion.
00:40:04
[snorts] I did attend there with
00:40:06
hundreds of other people. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:08
And I was processing it just just going
00:40:11
through that kind of motion and uh Yeah.
00:40:15
and and you get to the point that h no
00:40:17
not me because by then I was uh I was
00:40:20
exposed to many other thinkers of the
00:40:24
the Vietnam war uh anti-apartite
00:40:28
movements and uh and I think I got
00:40:31
through there and I decided no I
00:40:34
[snorts] don't think I want to go down
00:40:35
to the for the Olympic games for the
00:40:37
Commonwealth camp actually I was
00:40:39
training for the Commonwealth of 1974
00:40:42
>> yeah so I kind of pulled that I think I
00:40:44
just got to go and hitchhike and go and
00:40:47
pitch a change down in Parliament
00:40:49
grounds with all my other mates.
00:40:50
>> You just Yeah. You found your tribe,
00:40:52
your community, your like-minded people.
00:40:54
>> Well, yeah. Yeah, because the 70s was an
00:40:58
interesting period of time of activism,
00:41:01
>> you know, the hippie days, smoking and
00:41:03
marijuana and uh tripping and all of
00:41:07
that, you know, and um yeah, so so was a
00:41:11
learning learning curve for us here of
00:41:13
the of the younger generation of that
00:41:15
time. Um we didn't have the gangs, but
00:41:18
the gains came from from my generation
00:41:22
>> and um yeah, all of that. M
00:41:25
>> yeah pitching a tent on parliament. So
00:41:27
that was um I think that was the year I
00:41:28
was born. Was that 72? 73.
00:41:30
>> 72.
00:41:31
>> 72. Yeah, that was the year before I was
00:41:32
born. So you've been you've been living
00:41:34
this life for a long time.
00:41:37
>> What was um what was that for? The
00:41:39
>> I actually saw a photo that year of a
00:41:46
Aboriginal tent embassy in CRA. [snorts]
00:41:49
>> Yeah. And so, you know, cuz we all read
00:41:51
the paper, all the propaganda.
00:41:53
>> So, we all go rich. We, you know, it's a
00:41:56
it's an old habit because everybody read
00:41:58
the paper.
00:41:59
>> And uh then then I think was in the
00:42:02
middle page of the international niche
00:42:04
was the uh was the embassy house and
00:42:07
what embassy things. So, I met up with
00:42:10
those guys, Richard Bell. Richard Bell
00:42:12
still alive. Um Gary Folly still alive.
00:42:16
I think they're about only two guys. cuz
00:42:18
they come from the embassies still
00:42:19
around today.
00:42:21
>> And um Yeah. And so I've been hanging
00:42:23
out with those guys ever since too. And
00:42:27
uh Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't had a
00:42:30
tent. They had those umbrellas, you
00:42:32
know, those beach umbrella.
00:42:35
>> Yeah.
00:42:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I had a tent. Yeah. I u
00:42:39
Yeah. I happened to hitchhike all the
00:42:41
way when I doing the campaign to get a
00:42:43
support for the for the MAI embassy. So
00:42:45
I was the one that put my hand there.
00:42:47
Would that be me? cuz we share their
00:42:49
idea. I like what the Aboriginal you
00:42:52
know why don't we do that and and they
00:42:55
all nam members will say yes why not he
00:42:58
said I'll put man I'll do it I'll go
00:43:00
down there and set up the embassy and
00:43:03
whoever turn up there within a week or a
00:43:06
day and they can be the ambassador for
00:43:08
the day or for the week. So that was us
00:43:11
there right through to the end of the uh
00:43:14
of the election when um Norman Cook was
00:43:16
elected as the prime minister of that
00:43:19
time and um yeah it was a really
00:43:22
interesting period of time for us there
00:43:24
too
00:43:26
creating the space there for us there to
00:43:28
have a voice and the reason we picked
00:43:30
that time was the election. We thought
00:43:33
there was an opportunity for us there to
00:43:35
uh to be engaged
00:43:37
uh politically in a way that you have a
00:43:40
voice and uh yeah so that was it.
00:43:43
>> Mhm.
00:43:44
>> When when was the first time you you got
00:43:47
on the wrong side of the law and got
00:43:48
arrested?
00:43:50
>> Uh [clears throat]
00:43:52
was that as a kid as a 13year-old
00:43:54
driving a tractor,
00:43:56
>> right?
00:43:56
>> Yeah. And the cops stopped him and
00:43:58
stopped me there and asked me if I had a
00:44:00
license. And I said, I really didn't
00:44:03
know anything about license. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:07
And I say, "How old are you?" And I say,
00:44:09
"15." Well, I think I was only 13, but
00:44:13
he caught up with the old man. I told
00:44:15
the old man, the man stopped me down the
00:44:17
road, meaning the cop.
00:44:19
>> And [snorts] uh and he say, "I think he
00:44:21
want to see you."
00:44:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. So he had a check the cop.
00:44:25
He he just told him that uh I I
00:44:28
shouldn't be driving the tractor. He was
00:44:30
a liar. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my first
00:44:33
first first ever being uh spoken to by
00:44:36
the police.
00:44:37
>> First first of first of many over the
00:44:39
years. Did did what was your
00:44:41
relationship like with the police? Did
00:44:42
you did you dislike them? You distrust?
00:44:45
Uh
00:44:46
well, you know, they they had an
00:44:50
attitude particularly on Mai and I
00:44:52
always remember as a fitness at a
00:44:54
fitness a fitness fanatic and running
00:44:58
in the at night and uh go for a run at
00:45:01
night there with a double bag on my back
00:45:03
and then you get stopped by the police.
00:45:05
They would check your bags, see what you
00:45:07
got in there, where you going, what you
00:45:08
running for.
00:45:10
>> Profiling.
00:45:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, and uh I didn't
00:45:13
know my rights then. I didn't know that
00:45:15
you don't have to speak to them or say
00:45:17
anything.
00:45:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they have those early
00:45:20
stage of being stopped by the police.
00:45:23
>> And uh yeah, they just they're just
00:45:26
known as the [ __ ] of our community.
00:45:29
The the police, they weren't uh
00:45:31
>> they weren't even protecting our
00:45:33
interest at all. So, we always been
00:45:35
profiled as anything happened. in city
00:45:37
where all the moldi maldi boys uh been
00:45:41
picked and I remember the police coming
00:45:44
through to somebody happened to be
00:45:47
beaten up at the Lancaster public toilet
00:45:50
and uh so they took all the 60 boys from
00:45:54
the hostel and uh transport everybody to
00:45:57
the police station so the guy the victim
00:46:00
able to see whether if any of us did the
00:46:03
job but of course we didn't but still
00:46:07
you know, uh, a scary experience for for
00:46:10
young Mai young mai boys during that
00:46:12
period of time.
00:46:15
[sighs]
00:46:16
>> What do you think now? 2025, has it has
00:46:18
it got better?
00:46:20
>> Yeah. Yes or no? Yeah. I think there's a
00:46:23
a better system that uh, you know, it it
00:46:25
can be improved. It need to be improved.
00:46:28
>> [snorts]
00:46:28
>> I think that part and parcel of the um
00:46:31
of the uh police mi lea officer is uh
00:46:36
become the voice within their own system
00:46:38
and able to negotiate having those
00:46:41
conversation within our community.
00:46:44
Uh yeah and then I think there some of
00:46:47
those attitudes still around you know
00:46:50
and um but I I had some interesting time
00:46:52
with the with the police themselves and
00:46:55
I remember during the coc that I was in
00:46:57
um during co I got a call from the uh
00:47:00
police college and uh they want to have
00:47:03
a have a conversation with them and uh
00:47:08
and so they asked me what do you think h
00:47:11
[clears throat] not a bad idea. Yeah.
00:47:14
And I thought about, oh well, why don't
00:47:16
talk to your staff about how not to be
00:47:18
an [ __ ] [laughter]
00:47:20
Yeah. Yeah. So they really enjoy that.
00:47:23
So I had those conversation.
00:47:25
>> Yeah. Because uh what make you you know
00:47:28
why do you think you a lot of moldy
00:47:30
people think that you're an [ __ ] You
00:47:33
need to know about that.
00:47:34
>> Yeah. That was really interesting per.
00:47:36
So I managed to have those full
00:47:38
conversation with the police. In fact, I
00:47:40
went to the uh to the police college and
00:47:44
um yeah and and had a session where with
00:47:47
their staff from the senior sergeant up
00:47:50
>> and right down to the to the street cops
00:47:53
and
00:47:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really good
00:47:56
there to to have those kind of
00:47:58
conversations.
00:47:59
>> Yeah. And I think you're the right guy
00:48:00
to have those conversations as well.
00:48:02
>> Yeah.
00:48:03
>> Yeah. So, something else that I didn't
00:48:05
realize you were involved with until I
00:48:07
uh read it in the book, but the um 1975
00:48:09
Maldi land march led by uh Finny Cooper
00:48:12
um who was 79 at the time. She's there's
00:48:15
iconic photos of her on that walk. You
00:48:17
you were part of that too.
00:48:18
>> Well, we actually the one that created
00:48:20
that. It wasn't Finna Cooper.
00:48:22
>> Fa Cooper was the face [snorts] and we
00:48:25
needed a a face like that. She had the
00:48:27
profile. We didn't have the profile
00:48:29
>> and we needed people like her to reach
00:48:33
out to people like my biological father
00:48:36
you was scared as [ __ ] as to the um
00:48:41
[snorts]
00:48:42
what's happened for him you know and uh
00:48:45
and we thought that uh we we had a
00:48:47
conversation around the table with Sid
00:48:50
Jackson and others and uh we uh lay out
00:48:54
all the names of the person that we
00:48:57
looking for. So we all decided the only
00:49:01
woman there in that conversation was
00:49:02
Fina Koopa and who happens to be the
00:49:05
president of the uh MAI woman's welfare
00:49:08
league
00:49:10
who she had something like 35,000
00:49:14
registered members of the women's uh
00:49:16
welfare league and uh that was the face
00:49:20
>> and but we need a slogan and the slogan
00:49:23
was [snorts] not one more acre to be
00:49:26
sold and uh So the faith and the slogan
00:49:30
and the march from the harpa and all the
00:49:33
way down to uh to to Wellington.
00:49:36
>> So we said to her that we will do all
00:49:40
the dog work or you know all she had to
00:49:43
do smile and have a chat and uh yeah so
00:49:48
was an interesting period of time. So it
00:49:50
worked you know and it really was um you
00:49:54
know from you know building raising the
00:49:57
consciousness
00:49:59
to have a voice and uh yeah and worked
00:50:03
all right for us during that period of
00:50:05
time.
00:50:06
>> What was she like? uh she's a real
00:50:09
character's uh you know amazing you know
00:50:12
of that generation and I found that uh
00:50:15
>> uh a number of um of that generation
00:50:19
even younger they even recid
00:50:24
and uh many of those character and
00:50:28
within our community and uh we're out
00:50:32
there and um
00:50:33
>> yeah yeah so we we we did all the
00:50:36
planning and uh looking at different
00:50:39
ways and different approaches to uh
00:50:42
raising Dr. Con and having a voice and
00:50:44
having mana maintaining our mana either
00:50:52
till 95 95 years old.
00:50:54
>> I'm not too sure.
00:50:55
>> Yeah, but she was 79 when she did that
00:50:56
walk age.
00:50:57
>> No, no, no. she was in other and I
00:50:59
remember I was working in the border
00:51:01
lines of uh at the Mikon River down in
00:51:04
Thailand and u los and uh so we I had a
00:51:08
meeting with some with some guys we were
00:51:10
working with during that period of time
00:51:12
and and the guy came up from Bangkok
00:51:14
came into our camp and and the first
00:51:17
thing he said to me was your grandmother
00:51:20
had passed away and I said grandmother I
00:51:22
don't have a grandmother you all go a
00:51:24
long time ago but was was uh fa and she
00:51:28
passed. So I was over in there. They
00:51:30
they had her on international
00:51:32
>> television back then and people were
00:51:35
talking about it. Yeah.
00:51:38
>> Can we talk about Tomokco?
00:51:40
>> Mo. Yes.
00:51:40
>> Moco. Yeah.
00:51:42
>> What did I say? Moco.
00:51:43
>> Yeah. Mo. Yeah. No, you're right. You're
00:51:45
right.
00:51:46
>> I um I I I can speak very um basic Moldi
00:51:50
just like some words, but I I get this
00:51:52
thing. I get nervous when I say them
00:51:53
because Yeah. People correct me when I
00:51:55
say them wrong, but I try.
00:51:56
>> No, it's okay. Exactly.
00:51:57
>> Yeah. Killed it.
00:51:59
>> Um, so you you got this in your late
00:52:01
30s, I believe. Late 30s, early 40s. And
00:52:04
I believe
00:52:04
>> it could be early 40s.
00:52:05
>> I believe you you thought about it for
00:52:07
like seven years before.
00:52:08
>> That's correct.
00:52:10
>> Well, it's a process. It's processing
00:52:12
because you part of the liberation in
00:52:15
your mana muhake is to you you just go
00:52:19
through that and you have a
00:52:21
conversation. So I I had a chat with
00:52:23
other people in fact that I I had some
00:52:26
early research and conversation with
00:52:28
those that had the mo
00:52:31
for the woman and uh Yeah. Yeah. And
00:52:34
then we we we just talk among the men
00:52:37
around within our community and and we
00:52:40
all had a chap. What do you reckon, bro?
00:52:43
>> Yeah. Why not?
00:52:45
>> Yeah. But we didn't had any more
00:52:47
artists.
00:52:47
>> Yeah. But you had tattoo artists. Yeah.
00:52:50
And so
00:52:52
having those conversation, where do we
00:52:54
get the the knowledge from? And and
00:52:57
having those conversation and having the
00:52:59
conversation and the people that still
00:53:01
have those knowledge uh come from the
00:53:05
from the artist from the car. Yeah. And
00:53:07
so I put my hand with four others within
00:53:11
our community and we decided to find
00:53:14
somebody from Chu Hoy. We found the guy.
00:53:18
He was scared about doing anything about
00:53:20
that because he had no knowledge about
00:53:22
Mo during that period of time. But he
00:53:24
was a great artist and so it was a was a
00:53:27
learning curve for all of us and uh and
00:53:32
yeah. Yeah. And then you you go through
00:53:34
that whole process and and we finally
00:53:36
got it and then and taking that corded
00:53:39
all that conversation to to the nation
00:53:43
and go in front of the camera and say
00:53:46
this is what the future look like.
00:53:48
you're looking at it. M
00:53:49
>> so here we are 30 40 years later
00:53:55
bus loads of guys you got doctors with a
00:53:57
mo you got politician with a mo and uh
00:54:01
>> it's happening you got somebody working
00:54:03
on the on television with a moini
00:54:09
was one of those and she was one of the
00:54:12
uh the first um recognized person in
00:54:16
mainstream media he was bleeding the
00:54:19
knees with the moawa. So just like the
00:54:22
language, the mo is like the language in
00:54:24
bringing the language to onto the
00:54:26
platform. It's no longer tucked down in
00:54:28
the corner.
00:54:30
>> And uh so here we are.
00:54:32
>> But when when you got it done, I guess
00:54:34
probably about 1990, it's not something
00:54:36
you saw very often.
00:54:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. Around about 1990 that
00:54:40
happened. I just got back from the
00:54:41
States about 91. Could have been 92.
00:54:44
>> Yeah. So what sort of reaction did you
00:54:46
get from people? Was it um admiration or
00:54:49
>> Yeah, most of most of it admiration.
00:54:52
Yeah. They they thought that it suited
00:54:54
me at that time and they told anybody
00:54:57
where the mo is you.
00:54:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. So I got good response from
00:55:02
our community. In fact was good. And so
00:55:05
we took that challenge within our
00:55:07
community and uh and so anybody that had
00:55:11
the role [snorts] uh of the of elders of
00:55:15
the karanga at the fight quarter
00:55:17
standing on the should and um yeah so we
00:55:21
debated that and uh here we are. So we
00:55:25
got practitioners all over the place
00:55:26
now.
00:55:27
>> You know, it become an industry. It's
00:55:29
become part of the learning at the uh in
00:55:32
in the school in the university or just
00:55:35
within our community. So we got heaps
00:55:38
and heaps of uh mo artists.
00:55:41
>> It's amazing.
00:55:42
>> Was it was it one session or a number of
00:55:45
sessions?
00:55:45
>> Uh for me probably appeared around about
00:55:49
three or four session.
00:55:50
>> Right.
00:55:50
>> In fact, my face been done three times.
00:55:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh here you are.
00:55:58
>> Oh yeah, I heard a story. You you got
00:56:00
part of it done. I think the nose and
00:56:02
then you had a trip to Australia.
00:56:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I I had I did half a
00:56:06
face because we're still learning how to
00:56:08
do it. And even the the
00:56:12
you know the uh the uh
00:56:16
>> the toa was wasn't too sure how to do.
00:56:19
It's a new thing for us.
00:56:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then uh he said, "Well,
00:56:23
why don't we start on the nose?" I start
00:56:25
the nose. So I end up one side done. So
00:56:28
I think I walked around there for about
00:56:30
6 months with a half face done and went
00:56:33
to Australia with the half face done and
00:56:36
uh been interested in how people respond
00:56:38
to that.
00:56:39
>> Yeah. Nothing negative.
00:56:41
>> The only negative thing was they going
00:56:43
to bars around the country where they
00:56:45
have notice on their board saying those
00:56:48
with facial markings not allowed to be
00:56:50
in this place.
00:56:51
>> [snorts]
00:56:51
>> Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, here
00:56:53
in Oakuckland.
00:56:55
>> You you could you think that distinguish
00:56:56
the difference between say
00:56:58
>> that's what debate that was the debate
00:57:00
about it. This is not
00:57:02
>> a tribal tattoo versus like a gang in
00:57:06
>> I want to talk to your manager about it.
00:57:07
I I refuse to go till you till we remove
00:57:12
that u you know and negative uh tone
00:57:16
about the uh the mo. Yeah. Yeah. So I
00:57:19
got locked up for them just for uh just
00:57:21
for that. But uh things changed. You you
00:57:24
had to do those action during that
00:57:27
period of time.
00:57:29
[sighs]
00:57:29
[gasps]
00:57:31
>> Yeah. I mean well some someone has to do
00:57:34
it. But why did it have to be you like
00:57:35
it comes at such a big personal cost.
00:57:38
>> Yeah. That's right. I I make commitments
00:57:40
to to those you know to the language to
00:57:44
the mo to every part of who what make us
00:57:48
[snorts]
00:57:49
>> you know and uh because they all
00:57:51
connected the m connected to the
00:57:53
language
00:57:54
>> you know and uh yeah uh I wasn't alone
00:57:58
by myself there was there was a movement
00:58:01
itself
00:58:02
>> but everybody thinks it's tamiti again
00:58:04
you know no it wasn't just me
00:58:06
>> you you were just the loudest or the
00:58:08
noisiest the front.
00:58:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:11
>> Yeah. But but if you're out at a bar and
00:58:13
you're at a crossroads and you think I
00:58:14
can either like argue this and maybe end
00:58:17
up spending the night in the holding
00:58:18
cells or not, like I don't know. I think
00:58:21
I'd be like, "Whatever. I'll just leave
00:58:23
it." But you were never the guy that
00:58:24
just left it.
00:58:25
>> Yeah. No, no, no. I I just You
00:58:28
>> had to do it. We had, you know, so
00:58:31
>> we we had a conversation about it, you
00:58:33
know. I I didn't just go went out there
00:58:35
solely by myself.
00:58:37
>> Yeah. But um
00:58:40
yeah, that's how it works in uh in those
00:58:43
early days of uh activism.
00:58:48
>> I I think it's it's admirable. I I feel
00:58:51
like I'm a person that's, you know,
00:58:52
never sort of had I don't know, maybe my
00:58:54
belief system's been a bit flimsy and I
00:58:56
just haven't cared enough and uh I kind
00:58:58
of wish I was more like you in that
00:59:00
respect.
00:59:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. But there was many many many
00:59:02
other people
00:59:03
>> Yeah.
00:59:03
>> before me that was making James K. If
00:59:06
you if you understand if you heard of
00:59:08
the uh history of James K's dad who got
00:59:12
kidnapped in his village in Tanaki and
00:59:15
uh taken to the front line.
00:59:17
>> This is it James K. Baxter the writer
00:59:19
>> the father. Yeah his father he was the
00:59:21
uh who was a conscious objector
00:59:24
>> and uh and so to me those are really
00:59:27
brave guys there
00:59:29
>> they just refused to part. They refused
00:59:32
to put the military uh uniform on and
00:59:36
they were treated really bad, you know,
00:59:38
and uh
00:59:40
so my action was really minute compared
00:59:44
to those guys that they put their put
00:59:46
their life and their belief on the line
00:59:48
and they they never shed.
00:59:50
>> They really got really physically abused
00:59:53
by the system during the this is park
00:59:56
people dealing with their own with their
00:59:58
own system.
01:00:02
some of the um the [clears throat] like
01:00:04
you you getting kicked out of bars um
01:00:06
because of your mock. Uh that's like
01:00:08
less high-profile I guess than some
01:00:10
other things like um the 2005 shooting
01:00:12
of a flag at the Wangi Tribunal hearing.
01:00:15
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:16
>> Yeah. As I said before, I've seen that
01:00:18
clip maybe a thousand times
01:00:19
>> and I can see it now for for what it is.
01:00:22
It's um as you call it, artivism.
01:00:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:25
>> Combination of art and activism.
01:00:26
>> Well, theatrical. It's theater.
01:00:29
>> Yeah. You know, life is theatrical
01:00:31
>> and we had to uh present a way that how
01:00:34
how can we uh share our views and
01:00:38
history faka papa to uh w and so that
01:00:43
was an opportunity for us there to have
01:00:45
a conversation about the white tribunal
01:00:48
was based uh the part of the claim was
01:00:50
what happened to us there uh 100 years
01:00:54
100 years ago and um yeah [snorts] yeah
01:00:58
so was an opportunity unity for us there
01:01:00
to to share those stories and to get
01:01:04
things right. And uh and uh we thought
01:01:07
that uh it' be an opportunity
01:01:10
opportunity for us there to to meet up
01:01:13
with the White Tangi Tribino down in on
01:01:15
the confuscation line and uh and perform
01:01:19
and create fire, smoke, heat,
01:01:23
>> attention. Yeah. Tension, you know, and
01:01:26
uh and work really well. M
01:01:28
>> people were quite shocked by it. Yeah.
01:01:30
>> And that's what you you wanted to be
01:01:31
provocative.
01:01:32
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and I think it's a it's
01:01:34
a it's a good way to provoke our
01:01:37
thinking and people ask question. What
01:01:39
was that all about?
01:01:41
>> Well, in fact, 100 years ago, blah blah
01:01:43
blah blah.
01:01:45
>> But you end up getting in getting in
01:01:46
trouble for that for
01:01:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just dumb [ __ ]
01:01:50
you know, and not me, you know, in the
01:01:52
way that people see things. Right.
01:01:54
>> And in fact that the police, the local
01:01:56
cop there was okay about it. There's
01:01:58
some [snorts]
01:02:00
uh actor in Peggy from Parliament who uh
01:02:03
made a complaint about what he uh viewed
01:02:05
on television.
01:02:07
So the police responded on their
01:02:09
complaints and next minute I was um I
01:02:13
was detained and uh arrested for for
01:02:15
that for the use of firearms. But we
01:02:19
debated that. I got convicted and I
01:02:22
making they my lawyer and it's like I
01:02:25
took the case there to the app court and
01:02:27
I got thrown away by that three judges
01:02:31
at the hearing down in Wellington.
01:02:34
>> Yeah.
01:02:35
>> And is it true the the flag that you
01:02:37
shoot it's um sort of scrunched up so
01:02:39
you can't see but it's an Australian
01:02:41
flag.
01:02:41
>> No no
01:02:42
>> it's not.
01:02:43
>> No.
01:02:43
>> Why? There there's a rumor that it's an
01:02:45
Australian flag.
01:02:46
>> Yeah. Was that I created that?
01:02:48
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:49
>> Yeah. I run I can't remember the
01:02:51
reporter on TV1. He's Yeah. I think he's
01:02:54
still around their character.
01:02:55
>> The guy with the big mo and uh
01:02:57
>> Oh, Mark Sainsbury.
01:02:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:00
Yeah. Him. I run him and say, "Be do you
01:03:03
want to hear you want to hear a scoop?"
01:03:05
He say, "What was that?" Well, he know
01:03:07
the le shooting of the New Zealand flag.
01:03:10
Well, it wasn't even the New Zealand. It
01:03:12
was the Australian flag. I was having
01:03:14
them on. [laughter] Yeah. So you read on
01:03:16
uh he spoke about it on the uh on TV one
01:03:19
that that afternoon that evening.
01:03:22
>> Yeah. Yeah. And anyway um I uh I uh
01:03:26
appeared here up in Oakuckland a couple
01:03:28
of days later. So all the young park
01:03:30
fellas in Oakland yelling
01:03:34
Australian flag and like that bong bong
01:03:36
b [laughter]
01:03:37
they really love that. Yeah I thought
01:03:39
that was interesting.
01:03:40
>> So so so you look you look back on that.
01:03:42
So it's 20 years ago now. Are you Yeah.
01:03:45
When you see that footage, you you proud
01:03:46
of that?
01:03:47
>> Oh, yeah. Of course,
01:03:48
>> it's a performance. It's theater.
01:03:52
There's no way there's no other way that
01:03:54
we need to illustrate that in to uh
01:03:57
frame it in such a way, you know. So, I
01:04:00
was just part of it. There was another
01:04:02
group. Yeah. I had the smallest gun was
01:04:05
a shotgun. All the other folks had 303
01:04:08
227 and
01:04:10
>> and all of that, but I was the one that
01:04:12
they uh profile. It did hit on me.
01:04:16
>> And then two years after that came the
01:04:18
arrest for terrorism.
01:04:20
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:21
>> Yeah. What's what's the backstory of
01:04:22
that for anyone that's listening to this
01:04:24
podcast or watching this podcast that
01:04:26
you maybe can't remember that or isn't
01:04:27
familiar? What's the the quick is there
01:04:29
a quick backstory?
01:04:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I was I've
01:04:33
been running programs in in N weather
01:04:36
and uh particularly working with young
01:04:38
people and uh taking them up to the
01:04:41
hills and teach them about the uh about
01:04:44
the nature, the forest
01:04:47
and uh so through a whole period of time
01:04:50
I also work with a lot of the old war
01:04:52
veterans from the Vietnam War. Yeah, it
01:04:55
was a really good exercise. Yes, we did
01:04:57
have some training. We did have
01:04:58
firearms, but we didn't have plans to go
01:05:01
and kill people there. I don't know
01:05:02
where that came from. And uh yeah, and
01:05:06
so carrying guns in the is not something
01:05:09
unusual. It's quite a normal thing. We
01:05:12
all been raised there with firearms in
01:05:14
the house and they still are today, you
01:05:17
know, and so the media kind of created
01:05:20
all of that. they start building their
01:05:22
own propaganda narrative and there and
01:05:26
so the police kind of heard about it. Uh
01:05:29
the police uh found out that a
01:05:31
particular character that was in having
01:05:34
a communication with me which they've
01:05:36
been watching that particular guy and um
01:05:40
and so they're trying to build a make a
01:05:42
picture build a picture around it and
01:05:44
I'm assuming that they built that and h
01:05:48
come running around with guns. Yes, I
01:05:51
was. But not what they think it is.
01:05:53
Yeah.
01:05:54
>> Can you remember the the day of the
01:05:55
raids? Was was that a frightening
01:05:57
experience?
01:05:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:59
>> Like do like like a armed defender squad
01:06:01
banging doors down or
01:06:03
>> No, they didn't bang on the door. No.
01:06:05
>> Yeah. Yeah. It was a big loud. Yeah. So
01:06:08
imagine, you know, cuz I I can still see
01:06:10
it and I I felt it actually long before
01:06:14
it happens. And I felt it and I felt
01:06:18
>> something's not right.
01:06:19
>> Something not quite right. I can feel
01:06:20
it,
01:06:21
>> you know. And because I was on my
01:06:23
computer and I writing a report. I
01:06:26
writing a report. It was a Monday. Was a
01:06:28
Monday morning. And uh I was writing a
01:06:31
report of the lady I was having a
01:06:33
conversation having a bit of a trouble
01:06:35
with her with her son. And so I finished
01:06:38
I said I better do this report before
01:06:40
before I go to work. They probably run
01:06:42
about 5:00 in the morning. And uh and so
01:06:46
when I I decided to go and lie down in
01:06:48
bed and and I went there and lie in my
01:06:51
bed with my partner at that time and we
01:06:54
um yeah and then and then all of a
01:06:57
sudden this big loud loud ha
01:07:01
resident at two bar two wid street come
01:07:05
out with the hands up in the air and
01:07:07
listen the voice keep on repeating
01:07:09
itself loud clear two bar two and I So
01:07:15
[ __ ] that's me. That's my house.
01:07:19
[snorts] Yeah. I mean, by then wake
01:07:21
everybody up. Yeah. Yeah. And so uh
01:07:25
Yeah. And so we
01:07:27
and I pulled the curtain down there
01:07:29
because there's only one door. So I
01:07:32
pulled the curtain. There was a whole
01:07:33
lot of police cars. And then then we had
01:07:36
to go out to the the other door. And
01:07:38
then
01:07:40
yeah, that's that's a moment that the
01:07:43
moment I open the door and then there's
01:07:47
a flashlight
01:07:50
and boom. Yeah. And then bright light
01:07:53
there and then red dot all at the same
01:07:56
time. So you get a red dot there on your
01:07:58
your on your body on your forehead.
01:08:02
And I immediately stopped and
01:08:05
[clears throat] I realized this guy come
01:08:07
to kill me.
01:08:09
>> So I better kind of breathe. So it
01:08:12
shifted from their moment to
01:08:16
not quite like a a nightmare. It's just
01:08:18
like a dream. It's not a movie.
01:08:22
>> It's just it's real. Yeah. And then
01:08:24
action. Boom boom boom boom boom boom.
01:08:28
Just like that. We hit on the ground.
01:08:31
They got a gun at the back of your head
01:08:33
yelling and screaming. It's like a
01:08:36
movie.
01:08:37
>> Was Was that response over the top?
01:08:40
>> Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. I mean,
01:08:42
I'm an easy fellow to talk to.
01:08:43
[laughter] You could have just come and
01:08:45
talk to me. Tell me. Oh, we believe you
01:08:47
having something happen in the boat. I
01:08:50
could have invited them. Come out and
01:08:51
check it out. Join up.
01:08:54
>> Yeah. That didn't happen.
01:08:55
>> Al was at the time you're in I think
01:08:57
you're 55 56 years old. about in my late
01:09:02
50s.
01:09:04
>> So I remember hearing this at the time
01:09:05
in the the news um and it was sort of
01:09:08
like a scratching my head like
01:09:10
>> tit [laughter]
01:09:14
New Zealand's most wanted man. So get
01:09:16
out.
01:09:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] I think everybody
01:09:18
say the same thing. But I think they
01:09:20
they thought that they
01:09:22
>> the way they acted at that time was that
01:09:24
they hope they were hoping that the
01:09:26
community will support them.
01:09:29
and they were they were expecting a
01:09:32
support from within our community but
01:09:34
they didn't
01:09:35
>> actually went against them and uh
01:09:37
because it didn't it didn't just took me
01:09:40
out there in the early hour but it
01:09:42
stopped every every man and woman and
01:09:45
grandmothers and grandfathers in within
01:09:47
our community and they uh searched the u
01:09:51
the corn bus and stop all the school
01:09:53
kids there and u
01:09:55
>> yeah it was a huge impact um that uh
01:09:58
that happened during that time. That was
01:10:02
Yeah,
01:10:03
>> that was today. 15th of uh October.
01:10:06
Today
01:10:07
>> Oh, today's the anniversary.
01:10:08
>> 18 years.
01:10:09
>> Wow.
01:10:09
>> That was 18 years ago. [sighs and gasps]
01:10:12
It
01:10:12
>> still sits with you then.
01:10:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. Part of it. But I can't let
01:10:15
it go.
01:10:16
>> You [snorts] had to You can't carry
01:10:18
that.
01:10:19
>> You You can't carry their [ __ ] you
01:10:21
know, and uh and take you you got to let
01:10:24
it go and breathe and uh
01:10:26
>> Yeah. So,
01:10:28
>> yeah. So, so you've been called um an
01:10:30
activist over the years, which you I
01:10:32
think you quite like. Um you've been
01:10:33
called a radical as well, but being
01:10:34
being called a terrorist, like what did
01:10:36
that do for you?
01:10:38
>> Yeah. And not a nice thing there. I
01:10:40
mean,
01:10:41
>> yeah, we debated that for for for a long
01:10:44
time, you know, and uh and the fact that
01:10:46
the attorney general at that time
01:10:49
>> didn't think that that was active
01:10:51
terrorism and uh the go the case go and
01:10:55
u I should have been free like everybody
01:10:57
else, but they had to create something
01:10:59
cuz they spend a lot of money just in
01:11:03
what they thought was a
01:11:06
terrorist camp and uh I think Helen
01:11:08
Clark was a prime minister. So during
01:11:10
that period of time and uh they were
01:11:12
just uh supporting the notion of
01:11:15
American imperialism and at that time
01:11:17
during the bin Laden time during that
01:11:20
whole period of time and they told let's
01:11:23
see what this new act can do and uh
01:11:26
>> yeah didn't work didn't work for them.
01:11:29
>> What impact did that have on your mental
01:11:31
health?
01:11:33
>> No it was okay. I I mean Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:35
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
01:11:39
yeah, it's in in a serious note. And um
01:11:43
yeah, and just get myself more focus
01:11:46
around those issues. Hey, how how we
01:11:48
deal with it, how we respond to the way
01:11:50
that the police behave within our
01:11:52
community. It wasn't just a committee
01:11:54
thing. And uh and the community had to
01:11:57
uh
01:11:58
>> and Chuy had to uh pull pull this uh
01:12:01
ficaro and that together. and uh and how
01:12:04
to handle that whole situation within
01:12:06
our community in
01:12:10
>> what about the impact on your faro? Was
01:12:13
it hard on your on your
01:12:14
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. And uh
01:12:17
but it's unified us actually. And uh so
01:12:21
you know we we had to um uh I I I I have
01:12:26
to have a conversation
01:12:28
uh uh particularly with my boys three at
01:12:30
a time and that that they had to go out
01:12:32
there and um and and be my voice
01:12:36
>> uh outside and uh while I was detained
01:12:40
by the uh by the system at that time.
01:12:44
Um, one thing I've noticed when when the
01:12:46
[ __ ] hits the fan in anyone's life,
01:12:49
there's there's two sorts of people.
01:12:50
There's people that lean in and there's
01:12:51
people that lean out. Did Did you find
01:12:53
out who your real friends were?
01:12:54
>> Oh, yeah. Totally.
01:12:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And
01:12:57
>> lots of lots of good friends or were you
01:12:58
surprised at some people?
01:13:00
>> I I have friends from all over the
01:13:02
world.
01:13:02
>> Yeah.
01:13:03
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's a big huge response.
01:13:05
Big huge response particularly from
01:13:07
Canada.
01:13:08
And uh we we um uh we received money and
01:13:13
money monary support there from
01:13:16
international
01:13:18
>> and uh so um yeah a lot of people put a
01:13:22
lot of uh time and energy and uh in
01:13:25
support of our of our case
01:13:28
uh and so and it's Sykes and many other
01:13:32
friends within the law faculty that uh
01:13:36
that I knew during that period of time
01:13:38
They say so they all participate in the
01:13:41
conversation.
01:13:45
>> You Yeah. You seem quite forgiving. E
01:13:47
there's there's not a lot of um hatred
01:13:49
there or you don't seem to have a big
01:13:52
chip on your shoulder.
01:13:53
>> No, you you we we we
01:13:56
cannot afford to take upon other
01:13:59
[ __ ] from our side. You
01:14:02
>> so you have to uh for me I found that
01:14:04
out. So I can't carry some of that
01:14:07
somebody else's crap
01:14:09
>> because at the end of the day it wasn't
01:14:11
really my issue. They just create
01:14:13
something that is not true.
01:14:15
>> So I'm more believe in truth and that's
01:14:19
how I see things and that's how I deal
01:14:21
with it.
01:14:22
>> How did you not lose faith in our teda
01:14:24
at this time?
01:14:26
>> Or did there were there moments during
01:14:28
this whole process where you like what
01:14:31
is this? What is this place?
01:14:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean when when you
01:14:35
in that situation there's opportunity
01:14:37
for us to do something about it and how
01:14:40
we respond to it and particularly around
01:14:42
what's happening today uh to government
01:14:44
policy and what's happening to the
01:14:47
coalition government and the way they
01:14:50
been um undermining
01:14:54
the due process that have already been
01:14:57
um dealt with there 10 20 years ago. And
01:15:00
then and then you got a government that
01:15:03
uh a small group of uh mean that decided
01:15:06
to undermine all of that.
01:15:10
>> It's done basically.
01:15:13
>> So I'm not going to lose sleep out of it
01:15:15
because we just got to carry and do what
01:15:17
we believe what it is, you know, and uh
01:15:19
and not to be distracted by their uh by
01:15:23
their [ __ ]
01:15:26
Um so so off the back of that um that
01:15:30
whole arrest for ter terrorism um you
01:15:33
ended up being sentenced to some jail
01:15:35
time for firearms charges.
01:15:37
>> Yes. What's the firearm? You don't go to
01:15:38
jail for small firearm charges.
01:15:41
>> So
01:15:42
>> you don't do time you might get a slap
01:15:43
on the hand for that and uh might get it
01:15:45
fired or you might do PD work
01:15:49
>> and uh but uh we got two and a half
01:15:51
years.
01:15:52
>> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting because
01:15:54
the the guy Rodney who was the judge
01:15:57
actually we've been communicating.
01:16:00
Yeah. We've been having a conversation.
01:16:02
In fact, he bought a book. I signed a
01:16:05
book for him, you know, and uh I caught
01:16:07
up with him at the fundraising for the
01:16:10
uh for for the art and uh not very long
01:16:14
ago, maybe about four or five months
01:16:16
ago. Yeah. Interesting. you know, and
01:16:20
you know, I you know, he had a bit of a
01:16:23
tongue tangy, bit of tears when we when
01:16:25
we caught up there not very long ago.
01:16:28
>> And uh Yeah. I And I think that I I I
01:16:32
had to I had to let go of that. Yeah.
01:16:35
Yeah. You know, and I think also for
01:16:38
him. So I felt that with him. You had to
01:16:41
let go and uh whatever that is that the
01:16:44
decision he made there to uh Yeah. Yeah.
01:16:48
to um to incarcerate us.
01:16:52
>> Yeah. So you got sentenced to just over
01:16:55
a couple of years, ended up serving I
01:16:56
think nine months at So you Yeah. did
01:16:59
nine months in Wakeia
01:17:01
>> and spend most of their time at home in
01:17:04
uh reporting to correction
01:17:07
>> uh once a week and uh
01:17:11
that was a bit of a ha and uh about that
01:17:13
you know I had to keep reminding myself
01:17:16
I had to report on the Thursday
01:17:18
>> uh I get anxiety you know trying to
01:17:20
remember that I got to be there or else
01:17:22
you get locked up
01:17:24
>> for not turning up and stick to the
01:17:26
rules.
01:17:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. So that was a bit of a pain.
01:17:31
>> What was what was that prison experience
01:17:32
like? You've you've been incarcerated
01:17:34
many times, but I'm guessing mainly just
01:17:35
short stints, like a night here and
01:17:37
there in police cells, but this is a
01:17:39
like this is the best part of a year.
01:17:41
Were you in there for a birthday or a
01:17:43
Christmas?
01:17:43
>> Yeah, I was there for Christmas. I was
01:17:46
there for birthday and um Yeah. Yeah.
01:17:50
Well, you know, because probably it took
01:17:53
me two, three weeks to settle down
01:17:56
[snorts] and uh and having those moments
01:17:58
of um never mind, you know, 2 and 1/2
01:18:02
years and nothing. I'm hanging out with
01:18:04
fol who've been there 10 years, 15 years
01:18:07
a long time, you know, they're doing a
01:18:09
leg. [snorts]
01:18:10
>> Yeah. And so, so I hang out with all all
01:18:13
of them, all my relations, all people
01:18:16
that I met uh during that period of
01:18:18
time. M
01:18:20
>> was did anything good come out of that
01:18:22
time for you?
01:18:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh interesting
01:18:26
>> but very you know I I wouldn't recommend
01:18:28
for anybody to be in that in that
01:18:30
system.
01:18:32
>> Very dehumanized you know in how they
01:18:35
treat you
01:18:37
drop your pants down to see what you got
01:18:39
hiding away there you know and all of
01:18:42
that.
01:18:44
>> Yeah
01:18:45
>> too. I don't like it.
01:18:47
>> Yeah. Um, and I can't imagine it's
01:18:49
easier for an older man as well. You
01:18:50
were in your, I suppose, late 50s at the
01:18:52
time.
01:18:52
>> Yeah, I was in my late 50s. Was that
01:18:54
before? Was that challenging?
01:18:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um,
01:18:57
yeah, it can be, but I I I tried to move
01:19:00
on. Yeah. Yeah. just be creative and uh
01:19:04
I I'm over it and so I'm going to do my
01:19:06
time and uh and that was me
01:19:09
>> and and make it work for you,
01:19:12
>> you know, and create your space and uh
01:19:16
space of um Yeah. Yeah. Uh interesting.
01:19:20
I I enjoyed that period of time and I'm
01:19:22
still having those conversation. I met
01:19:24
some really good people from there
01:19:26
>> and some of those people there turned
01:19:28
out to my book launch there last night.
01:19:31
>> A couple of them.
01:19:33
>> I suppose with your wisdom and
01:19:34
experience you would have been a good
01:19:36
sounding board for a lot of a lot of
01:19:38
other
01:19:39
>> wheel and you hustle and wheel and deal
01:19:41
with the within the system
01:19:43
>> and uh they want me to be involved with
01:19:46
uh having conversation. and they're
01:19:47
having trouble with some of the inmates
01:19:50
>> and uh they want me to go and have a
01:19:52
conversation with those particular guys
01:19:53
and I said well [snorts] I said yes I
01:19:57
heard that I got some stuff there locked
01:20:00
up in your wardrobe can you uh release
01:20:03
all of that I need the canvas yeah
01:20:06
because I got mails from people saying
01:20:08
if I can receive my um you know the
01:20:10
stuff that they sent across to me in in
01:20:12
the prison
01:20:14
>> yeah yeah so they so we will and deal
01:20:16
works for and works for me.
01:20:19
>> Is is there anything that you thought
01:20:20
you'd miss that you didn't or vice versa
01:20:23
>> where
01:20:23
>> about being incarcerated for that length
01:20:25
of time?
01:20:27
>> Um,
01:20:29
no, no, no, no. But there was a moment
01:20:31
in the early days I was really angry.
01:20:34
>> I was really angry terribly. Yeah. Yeah.
01:20:38
And um
01:20:40
took me 3 weeks to to get over it and
01:20:43
just let that one go, you know, in 2 and
01:20:46
1/2 years. I think I can I can do that.
01:20:48
No sweat. Yeah. And uh make it work. So
01:20:51
I end up working on the farm. Uh yeah.
01:20:55
And taking working on the farm there.
01:20:59
Uh go out and uh having some nice clay
01:21:03
and mules out there out on the farm. Uh
01:21:07
so we had the honor to be able to have
01:21:09
good kaya there and uh we're doing
01:21:12
things that they don't don't normally
01:21:14
allow you do.
01:21:16
>> Uh but uh the prison officer that was uh
01:21:19
around there at that time was really
01:21:20
good to us.
01:21:22
>> I suppose cuz they they trust you. You
01:21:23
build that trust I guess.
01:21:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:21:28
>> Did you did it change you?
01:21:32
>> Change me?
01:21:34
>> Yeah. Did it change you at all?
01:21:36
As I said at the beginning of this chat,
01:21:37
I feel like there's um there's there's
01:21:39
um a change. And I don't know if it's if
01:21:41
it's just the age and the stage you're
01:21:42
you're at in life as a man. I don't know
01:21:45
if it's um the mainstream media sort of
01:21:48
understands your your reason for the
01:21:50
activism over the years or if it's
01:21:52
something that's come from within you.
01:21:55
>> Yeah, I I I guess so. I I guess that
01:21:57
there have been some changes. I I had to
01:21:59
make some changes,
01:22:00
>> you know, personally, you know, I think
01:22:02
for for most of us and I I guess that a
01:22:04
lot of guys we have those conversation,
01:22:07
>> you know, guys are getting locked up for
01:22:09
10, 15 years for PE P dealers and all of
01:22:13
that and they, you know, they talk about
01:22:17
um dumb stuff that they done, you know,
01:22:20
and um yeah, so we kind of share all of
01:22:23
those how we feel about it. you know,
01:22:26
you got 60 inmates. We all live in the
01:22:28
same in the same place. We have our own
01:22:31
little we rooms and uh every day we see
01:22:33
each other and we have our conversation
01:22:36
and uh
01:22:37
>> and and that's a help. It's a big help
01:22:39
there for us there. And of course that
01:22:41
uh
01:22:43
I was I become uh there's two or three
01:22:45
of us at the K mar within the wind of
01:22:47
the talama
01:22:49
>> and uh Yeah. Yeah. And so we um Yeah.
01:22:53
Yeah. So you you you you have to be
01:22:55
smart and so you you can't be there
01:22:57
afford to uh to be an [ __ ] yourself
01:23:00
to everybody else. And I think it's
01:23:02
really important that we I uh we all
01:23:05
have to change our attitude and our
01:23:06
behavior
01:23:07
>> within the system to uh to live another
01:23:10
day and enjoy the moments
01:23:12
>> and what what work for us
01:23:15
>> mentally, psychologically and
01:23:17
spiritually in every way we can uh to be
01:23:21
able to um don't allow to be yourself to
01:23:25
be angry and being
01:23:29
>> dumb
01:23:30
>> I is
01:23:33
>> I appreciate you sharing that stuff. I'm
01:23:35
sure it's not an easy chapter of your
01:23:37
life to reflect on.
01:23:39
>> I I don't have a problem with it. I I
01:23:41
really I think I don't have a problem
01:23:43
having those conversation,
01:23:46
>> you know, in in here. I think it's
01:23:48
really important for us to have those
01:23:49
voice. I think it's really important for
01:23:52
us there to to have a voice to have a
01:23:54
say and and and and have the ability to
01:23:59
articulate that whatever that um uh
01:24:03
what's happening in your stomach in your
01:24:05
booku and what's happening in your
01:24:07
heart, your feelings, your emotions
01:24:10
uh in every way we can. But I think it's
01:24:13
important for us to be open about that
01:24:16
>> those hidden secrets or um all of that.
01:24:20
Yeah. So it taught me that you know I
01:24:23
think um being in that kind of space in
01:24:26
that kind of space here in uh in in the
01:24:29
dumb situation
01:24:31
>> become a um yeah is is a plus for me.
01:24:35
>> Yeah. to be able to uh to learn and
01:24:37
manage that
01:24:40
>> when I'm sure there was some um there
01:24:42
were some um dark days when you're
01:24:44
incarcerated and I'm sure it was back
01:24:46
then it was impossible to imagine that
01:24:48
you'd be nominated for Kiwi Bank New
01:24:50
Zealander of the year in 2022 a
01:24:53
contestant on Celebrity Treasure Island.
01:24:55
[gasps]
01:24:56
>> Like the um
01:24:57
>> Adler [laughter]
01:24:59
>> Yeah. Like what the hell? like the stuff
01:25:01
that that's happened since then.
01:25:02
>> The the re I don't know if you call it a
01:25:04
rebrand or whatever it is, but just the
01:25:06
way that you're um perceived and thought
01:25:09
of, I suppose, by New Zealand, it's um
01:25:12
it's wild.
01:25:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I find it strange and
01:25:16
funny, you know, you can smile and laugh
01:25:18
about it, you know, where it took that
01:25:21
there for people to actually now kind of
01:25:24
see where you at. Yeah. And uh Yeah. I I
01:25:28
never planned that but it happens.
01:25:30
>> How can you you can't you can't plan
01:25:32
that. So
01:25:32
>> no no no not at all but interesting
01:25:35
period of time not only for me but I
01:25:38
think for the country
01:25:39
>> you know to be able to to deal with
01:25:42
those uh untruthful things that have
01:25:44
been spoke about us and uh and people
01:25:50
okay true here we are. Did you
01:25:55
[clears throat] this this Yeah, this
01:25:57
might be a wild correlation to make, but
01:25:59
were there were there times when you're
01:26:00
incarcerated where you thought about
01:26:01
Nelson Mandela
01:26:03
>> all the time? You know, I cuz I I had
01:26:07
the honor and the opportunity to be able
01:26:08
to meet up with uh a moment of handshake
01:26:12
with Nelson Mandela.
01:26:13
>> Wow.
01:26:14
>> Down at the uh Tonga Wayway. I actually
01:26:17
miss out because that day before that I
01:26:20
went out to my box uh PO box 24 and uh
01:26:24
and there was an invitation there to go
01:26:26
and meet up with Nelson Mandela. I was
01:26:28
up in Oakuckland. I look at 6:30 and I
01:26:30
look at my time was 6:30 but I was I was
01:26:34
4 hours away from the venue. So I run I
01:26:38
think I might have called um John Mento.
01:26:41
You say, "Oh, I got the I just got the
01:26:44
uh the notice and uh where's she going
01:26:46
to be?" And he say, "Go to too long
01:26:49
away." Yeah. Yeah. So, I caught up with
01:26:52
Nelson Mandela with Eva Ricardo was over
01:26:54
there, too.
01:26:56
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, we we had a bit of a
01:26:57
hard time getting in there because they
01:26:59
had tight security,
01:27:01
>> you know, and uh even my bloody relation
01:27:04
stopped me going in there, [laughter]
01:27:06
you know, who was, you know, who was the
01:27:08
security around there. And uh but I saw
01:27:12
Nelson B making his way towards the uh
01:27:15
to the to the far to uh with u meet up
01:27:18
with um
01:27:21
the queen at that time and u I yell out
01:27:24
to them
01:27:26
I have a message for you. They just
01:27:28
pulled him away.
01:27:29
>> So I waited there till he come out there
01:27:32
and an hour and a half later I yell out
01:27:35
to him but he came walked straight to
01:27:37
me. Yeah. I have a message to you. don't
01:27:40
believe everything has ever been happen
01:27:42
here in this country. So I gave him the
01:27:44
note and handshake there. Did the hungi
01:27:47
and and that was me because um Nelson
01:27:51
Nelson Mandela always been
01:27:55
the hero, the man that we know of from
01:27:58
my early days of activism of the antithe
01:28:02
movement and uh finally was a real honor
01:28:05
to be able to meet somebody like him
01:28:08
>> and uh and that was me and many others.
01:28:11
M
01:28:13
is he a man where just being in his
01:28:15
presence you feel mana?
01:28:17
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I guess so.
01:28:20
>> Yeah. I guess so. But even more so
01:28:22
meeting up with uh the guy Wood who
01:28:24
wrote the book on Steve Bo. Steve Bo
01:28:27
also somebody that I have a lot of
01:28:29
respect to who was a young man at that
01:28:32
time.
01:28:33
>> Uh who got uh got killed.
01:28:35
>> Uh
01:28:36
>> yeah. Beaten to death, wasn't he?
01:28:37
>> Yeah.
01:28:37
>> Was he beaten to death?
01:28:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. He was beaten up. M
01:28:41
>> and uh Donald Woods was the one that
01:28:43
wrote a book about it and he exiled he
01:28:46
used to be he used to own the
01:28:48
Johannesburg newspaper in uh
01:28:50
Johannesburg
01:28:51
and uh he managed to escape there from
01:28:54
the regime and the regime accuse him of
01:28:57
uh allowing his staff there to use the
01:29:00
same toilet and under the rule of apart
01:29:03
they had to have separate toilet for
01:29:04
their workers one for white and one for
01:29:07
blacks.
01:29:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. So there's a way I mean of
01:29:11
course Nelson Mandela but also Steve BGO
01:29:14
was also uh always been in in my frame
01:29:18
of mind.
01:29:20
[sighs and gasps]
01:29:22
>> This we've been going for like an hour
01:29:23
and a half. This is this a great chat.
01:29:26
You've got good energy. Eh
01:29:27
>> yeah.
01:29:27
>> How what are you 73? 7
01:29:29
>> I'm 7 I'll be 74 April next year.
01:29:31
>> 74. So what what vices have you got
01:29:34
these days? You quit smoking ages ago
01:29:36
and you're almost almost vegan vegan
01:29:38
now.
01:29:38
>> Yeah. 95% 95% I don't eat dairy
01:29:42
products, you know. And I think health
01:29:45
thing is really important there for me
01:29:47
to be able to maintain my physical
01:29:49
being, my wellbeing.
01:29:52
Uh food food is I'm I love my food.
01:29:57
>> You you and me, we've got something in
01:29:58
common. We both love sugar.
01:30:00
>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
01:30:00
>> Bad sugar addiction.
01:30:02
>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know. addiction is
01:30:04
terrible. You know, my taste, you know,
01:30:07
[laughter] it's really about discipline
01:30:10
yourself and uh
01:30:12
>> talking to yourself. I like it.
01:30:14
>> But unlike um unlike you, I'm I'm not a
01:30:16
fan of Kenna. Hate the look, hate the
01:30:18
taste. Ex-girlfriend of mine was moldy.
01:30:20
Should go diving for them and slurp them
01:30:22
raw on the boat.
01:30:23
>> Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. Is that you?
01:30:26
>> Yeah. No, that's me. [laughter]
01:30:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. Put it on toast. Penner
01:30:30
toast sandwich. It's nice. I don't get
01:30:33
it. I'm not trying it. Do you still
01:30:35
cycle? I heard you you love cycling. You
01:30:36
do like that.
01:30:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um specialize
01:30:38
[clears throat] 100k race.
01:30:40
>> Oh, I never win race.
01:30:42
>> I I love it. I like endurance of cycling
01:30:46
the 100ks.
01:30:48
>> And do you wear you wear Lyra?
01:30:50
[clears throat]
01:30:50
>> Do you wear like a [laughter]
01:30:54
>> I could not imagine you like you're such
01:30:56
a you're such a fashionable guy. Like
01:30:58
you love the top hats.
01:31:00
>> You always dressed really well. I can't
01:31:02
imagine you in No one looks great in
01:31:03
light.
01:31:04
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I like it. You
01:31:05
know, because everybody get a bit of
01:31:07
shock to see me there on my on my uh
01:31:10
Scotty bike. The brand I ride is Scotty
01:31:14
and uh you know and um you know
01:31:16
everybody kind of get a shock but I
01:31:18
really love it and it's quite emotional
01:31:21
>> for me you know doing 100ks and you
01:31:23
reach down to the end
01:31:25
>> you know and you feel it. Wow.
01:31:28
>> I'll do it again.
01:31:29
>> Sense of accomplishment.
01:31:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of that and I do
01:31:32
it again and but I've been riding bikes
01:31:35
for for many years
01:31:38
>> you know and uh you know 10 speed bikes
01:31:41
and I bike all the way from I used to
01:31:44
bike from Ruatuki there's a couple of
01:31:46
days biking to um to Raglet
01:31:49
>> and uh I did a campaign with a couple of
01:31:52
other guys there from Ruati to Aland and
01:31:56
uh that's a 4hour drive there on the car
01:31:59
but they'll take us a couple of and make
01:32:01
our way up in Oakuckland. So,
01:32:04
>> good exercise.
01:32:05
>> Yeah. And when when did you quit the
01:32:07
siggies?
01:32:08
>> Oh, a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:32:11
It's another I mean, I didn't start
01:32:12
smoking till I was in my 20s.
01:32:15
>> Yeah. I didn't even know how to smoke
01:32:17
was just passion.
01:32:19
>> Yeah. Stylish. Show.
01:32:20
>> Look good.
01:32:21
>> Yeah. Look great. Look great. You know,
01:32:23
I didn't want to look out of place
01:32:24
there. The only fellow there does smoke
01:32:26
sigy.
01:32:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I got addicted and but I
01:32:29
did 10 years of that
01:32:31
>> until I decided, you know, you back in
01:32:34
the days you smoking be or smoking the
01:32:36
meeting house and
01:32:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, I decided to go
01:32:41
to the confiscation line and b my last
01:32:43
packet of men and I threw that down on
01:32:46
the confiscation letting it go. You
01:32:49
know, finding a way how to deal with
01:32:51
that addiction. M
01:32:54
>> what about the um the the love of um top
01:32:57
hats? Where did that begin?
01:32:59
>> Oh, always love hats.
01:33:00
>> Yeah.
01:33:00
>> Yeah. Everybody wear hats in our
01:33:02
community, you know, the farmers and uh
01:33:06
Yeah. And I think I used to um I used to
01:33:10
swap hats with um swap eggs, bucket of
01:33:13
eggs for uh John Wayne plastic hat. So I
01:33:17
had one of those there for a little
01:33:19
while and I didn't like plastic.
01:33:21
>> Yeah. And uh but um yeah, so I'm
01:33:24
fortunate to be um received I get a
01:33:27
sponsor the Hills hat who uh who supply
01:33:32
me with um with hats and uh over in the
01:33:35
last few years and
01:33:37
>> so I got a whole wardrobe a wall just uh
01:33:41
the different hats we wear every day.
01:33:43
>> Yeah.
01:33:45
Yeah. I suppose g g g g g g g g g g g g
01:33:46
g g g g g g g g given your age almost
01:33:47
3/4ers of a century old um you must be
01:33:50
like at a reflective stage of life now.
01:33:52
Um what are you still working on as a
01:33:54
man? [snorts]
01:33:55
>> Well I'm excited what we well what we
01:33:58
looking at for the next next for the
01:34:00
next 10 years.
01:34:02
>> I'll be
01:34:04
well well done to my 80s. So, I'm
01:34:07
looking forward to the future and uh
01:34:10
having the opportunity to be able we we
01:34:13
invested money into uh buying the the
01:34:17
the resource that we uh we needed to um
01:34:21
yeah and to allow us to be creative and
01:34:25
having the new technology and and having
01:34:28
my uh my children and others that are
01:34:31
part and parcel of a collective
01:34:33
>> and for us to create the magic within
01:34:36
our community, building our community,
01:34:38
>> uh, building a community particularly
01:34:40
around in Mata to the Fakatani area and
01:34:43
particularly that we have the the first
01:34:46
Ras Savaran the mayor of Fakatani Nando
01:34:50
and so having those
01:34:54
those um smart people within our
01:34:57
community. Um I'm looking forward there
01:34:59
what the future is for us there for mach
01:35:03
for
01:35:06
>> side and um yeah yeah I'm excited.
01:35:11
>> How do you personally define happiness
01:35:12
now? And and has it changed over the
01:35:15
years?
01:35:16
>> Yeah, happiness for me now at my age is
01:35:19
having to be able now I know what
01:35:21
freedom is. Freedom to be able to be who
01:35:23
I am. uh more focus on the creative side
01:35:27
of things that um trying to find a way.
01:35:30
So I'm really happy at that moment. So I
01:35:34
don't really need to do
01:35:37
you know I I have no regrets what what I
01:35:40
what we have done there 40 50 years ago
01:35:44
>> and I think it's just shifting the
01:35:47
energy and having the energy to be in
01:35:51
working collectively with a good team of
01:35:54
people and uh and having those people on
01:35:57
board not just with my children but all
01:36:00
of those are creative people and artists
01:36:02
there within our community not only that
01:36:04
within our community in um Rui Fakatan
01:36:09
in their area but um uh particularly
01:36:12
nationally and internationally. So
01:36:16
you know we're having those conversation
01:36:17
with people indigenous people in in the
01:36:20
USA, Canada and the Pacific.
01:36:22
>> So I'm looking forward to that.
01:36:25
>> Yeah. You were still keen to travel, eh?
01:36:27
You want to do more travel? I did I hear
01:36:29
you say somewhere you want to go to the
01:36:30
Middle East?
01:36:31
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I want to
01:36:33
go to the Middle East. I want to go to
01:36:35
the Middle East to the place that my
01:36:37
uncles that they went for this guy
01:36:39
called Hitler, you know, and going
01:36:41
around to those area. I have traveled
01:36:43
all around in Europe working with the
01:36:45
with Leon and the M production. I done
01:36:48
that there for 14 years. Uh was a
01:36:52
interesting period of time for me there.
01:36:54
I learned hell a lot from that. And uh
01:36:57
yeah, so I'm still keen to travel. Um
01:37:00
I'm keen to travel. We got some friends
01:37:02
coming across there from the uh from
01:37:04
Canada, from BC.
01:37:07
And uh so hanging out with those guys,
01:37:10
they keen to take me for for a bit of a
01:37:12
cruise there on the truck to the Yukon,
01:37:15
you know, and uh they have a um
01:37:18
satellite dish down the back of their
01:37:19
truck so we can have a have a
01:37:21
conversation with everybody while we on
01:37:23
tour.
01:37:24
>> Yeah.
01:37:26
[snorts]
01:37:27
>> You're still living like a 20-year-old.
01:37:29
You said you said that you still feel
01:37:31
like a 20-year-old sometimes. You're
01:37:32
still living like a 20-y old.
01:37:33
>> I still feel that way.
01:37:35
>> Yeah. Just with all the wisdom and
01:37:37
intelligence that comes with
01:37:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still um Yeah. I
01:37:42
still feel like that. I was 50 odd years
01:37:45
ago, you know.
01:37:47
>> And I had the energy to be able to do
01:37:49
that, you know. I had my little little
01:37:53
snooze there before coming here to meet
01:37:55
up [clears throat] with you. So, and
01:37:56
that's a big help. Yeah. So, I can go on
01:37:59
to now till 1:00 in the morning.
01:38:02
>> So, you're like a phone. You just need a
01:38:04
little charge every now and then.
01:38:05
>> Charge up. Charge up and I'll be right.
01:38:07
>> And um your your mockapuna, how how do
01:38:10
you hope they see you as a man?
01:38:12
>> You know, this that generation is just
01:38:14
amazing,
01:38:15
>> you know, and give hope to us, you know,
01:38:17
and uh they're very creative and uh in
01:38:22
our book launch last night, you know,
01:38:24
you see all the their performance at
01:38:26
their creativities. M so they part of
01:38:29
the collective they are part of the
01:38:31
collective of our
01:38:33
creativity and uh we must include the
01:38:36
new generation in fact they had to carry
01:38:38
that so it's really good for visually
01:38:42
for us to be seen around hanging out
01:38:44
with them and uh yeah I just love it you
01:38:48
know and particularly last year on the
01:38:51
on the marful to2
01:38:54
was just phenomenal it's amazing you
01:38:58
know of the energy and um you know these
01:39:01
are the kids that came through from the
01:39:04
Kohangad and the Kurakopa they are the
01:39:07
uh the result of the the work that we
01:39:11
have uh done 50 odd years ago for the
01:39:13
language so here you are it's another
01:39:15
generation all together uh they don't
01:39:19
carry out our trauma you know and uh
01:39:23
yeah I'm just I'm really happy that uh
01:39:26
to be in uh stall in participation with
01:39:29
this with this new generation.
01:39:32
>> What are you most afraid of?
01:39:35
>> Afraid of us not doing anything.
01:39:38
>> I think I'm afraid of that. Afraid of us
01:39:41
to see things that we see is not good
01:39:45
>> and not responding and uh react and
01:39:48
finding a way. I'm afraid of that. M
01:39:51
>> what about on a on a smaller more more
01:39:53
selfish scale like you um you know
01:39:56
you've got so much to live for. Are you
01:39:58
scared of dying?
01:39:59
>> No, I'm not.
01:40:00
>> No,
01:40:00
>> I've looked forward to that.
01:40:02
>> You know and um you know it's something
01:40:04
we have to accept. Understand that
01:40:06
>> death is something cannot be avoided.
01:40:09
>> We should not be afraid of that.
01:40:11
>> And uh
01:40:13
>> yeah I plan that. I have those
01:40:15
conversation with my kids about that
01:40:17
what what if they ask me dad what you
01:40:20
want to do for your tongue
01:40:23
I I want sh that out going to do because
01:40:25
it's a secret
01:40:27
>> yeah so it's going to be interesting
01:40:29
it's going to be fun
01:40:31
>> hopefully it's hopefully um yeah
01:40:33
hopefully your lifespan is um similar to
01:40:35
Dame Finn Cooper like she had a good
01:40:37
life right
01:40:38
>> it feels like you're um yeah that's why
01:40:40
I sorry if that's a morbid question but
01:40:42
you know I see someone like at your age
01:40:43
and stage of life and you've still got
01:40:44
lots of energy and you're still planning
01:40:46
lots and there's still lots you want to
01:40:47
do. So yeah, I wondered if you if you
01:40:50
feared death from that perspective just
01:40:52
on, you know, on what you're going to
01:40:53
miss out on.
01:40:55
>> No, I accepted death as a intricate part
01:40:58
of our life. Yeah.
01:40:59
>> Yeah. Not something that we we should be
01:41:01
free to talk about that
01:41:04
look like,
01:41:05
>> what shape or form what that is. And um
01:41:08
>> I I think is is a good planning. I I've
01:41:11
been talking and planning with my kids
01:41:13
about it. M
01:41:14
>> and um yeah, it's going to be really
01:41:16
interesting. So,
01:41:18
>> we kind of have at fine arts and
01:41:22
>> any regrets.
01:41:24
>> No regrets.
01:41:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I think I I I would have
01:41:30
probably the only regret I had was
01:41:32
really,
01:41:34
>> you know, I I could have spent more time
01:41:36
with the with with our biological
01:41:38
father,
01:41:39
>> you know, and kind of catch up, but we
01:41:43
but he died young, you know. I I never
01:41:46
really had the opportunities to, you
01:41:50
know, for him and I to sit on the table
01:41:52
and enjoy our moments
01:41:54
>> instead of um,
01:41:57
you know, allowed oursel to argue about
01:42:00
dumb little things, you know, and it's
01:42:02
always interesting. It was important, I
01:42:05
think, for a father and son to have
01:42:07
those uh close network and probably
01:42:11
that's my only regret.
01:42:12
>> Yeah.
01:42:14
Is legacy something you think about?
01:42:16
>> No.
01:42:17
>> No. [laughter]
01:42:21
>> Not. Yeah, it isn't.
01:42:22
>> No.
01:42:23
>> Yeah. Why? Why not?
01:42:25
>> Well, I never thought about it.
01:42:26
>> Yeah. Okay.
01:42:27
>> Yeah. You don't think about those
01:42:28
things.
01:42:28
>> Yeah.
01:42:29
>> Yeah. There's nothing about fake apps.
01:42:31
>> Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because for
01:42:33
some people it's very important, but for
01:42:35
others, I suppose, you know, that'll be
01:42:37
you'll be gone and that's up to other
01:42:38
people to decide what it is.
01:42:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean [snorts]
01:42:42
>> and I I guess that I I will remain
01:42:45
always in the back of minds of many
01:42:47
thousands other people
01:42:49
>> and I I have many of those conversation
01:42:52
with those people on social media uh
01:42:55
that you know is some people I respond
01:42:59
to some most of the time I don't respond
01:43:01
but um I meet people on the street at
01:43:04
the airport you know on the street Queen
01:43:07
Street everywhere and Um yeah yeah I
01:43:12
always put my time moments on my time
01:43:16
you know and um you know passing through
01:43:18
the airport and having those moments and
01:43:20
having those conversation and uh
01:43:24
>> be respectful.
01:43:25
>> Yeah. What do they say when people come
01:43:27
up to you in airports or on the street?
01:43:30
>> They love the work that I do. They love
01:43:32
my art. They're like, you know, all the
01:43:36
bits and pieces of you and and I guess
01:43:39
that it is the people. If we don't have
01:43:42
those people, I wouldn't be here.
01:43:44
[snorts]
01:43:44
>> Many of us the work that we do for you,
01:43:47
you have an audience. M
01:43:48
>> we all have audience, you know, and um
01:43:52
so we we we thank all of those people,
01:43:55
you know, because they are all an
01:43:57
intricate part of change, you know, if
01:44:00
they're not around there, well, just we
01:44:02
did nothing there for us.
01:44:04
>> So, we just stay there and go out
01:44:07
healing and
01:44:08
>> and enjoy the [snorts] other moments of
01:44:10
our life.
01:44:11
>> Oh, you mentioned um your art just
01:44:13
before and social media and it's um just
01:44:15
sparked a memory in me. Um you who runs
01:44:18
your Tik Tok? Do you run your own Tik
01:44:20
Tok or does someone run your own?
01:44:21
>> Oh, no. I do most of it.
01:44:22
>> Yeah.
01:44:22
>> Yeah, I do most of it myself.
01:44:24
>> Cuz there was one that went um sort of
01:44:26
viral of you going to the um
01:44:27
>> I do their painting their artwork down
01:44:30
in their Flash Hotel in Wellington.
01:44:31
[clears throat]
01:44:31
>> Yeah. The QT Museum.
01:44:33
>> Yeah. Well, well, you know, I thought
01:44:35
about it. I thought really hard about it
01:44:37
and my kids sort of kind of don't do
01:44:39
anything. Don't do anything.
01:44:41
[laughter]
01:44:42
You know, you know this. You can see it.
01:44:44
You can see it's me and my name is not
01:44:47
Tama, I'm Tame. It's very simple name T.
01:44:52
>> Mhm.
01:44:52
>> You know, and uh Yeah. But then then we
01:44:55
planned it and and then Toy said, "Oh,
01:45:00
we can do it now. We'll video you." We
01:45:02
had two cameras. Yeah. It was well done.
01:45:05
>> What I was going to ask you, was it a
01:45:06
setup? Did you have the hotel staff
01:45:08
permission or No.
01:45:09
>> No. No. They had no idea. [laughter]
01:45:11
Yeah, I know. We we just pretending, you
01:45:13
know, we we create a video on it. It
01:45:15
went viral, that one.
01:45:17
>> It's so good. It's so good seeing you
01:45:19
get excited that it went viral as well.
01:45:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, we we just paint
01:45:23
it and just go there and make it. It's
01:45:25
not vandalism
01:45:27
>> become art on art. Yeah. And so I just
01:45:30
went in painted wrote it to me
01:45:34
>> and that's it. and walk out. And so I
01:45:36
took a shot of the guy, you know, the
01:45:38
guy down the door outside when I was
01:45:40
walking out.
01:45:41
>> Have a good day.
01:45:44
>> Yeah, I love that.
01:45:47
>> No repercussions.
01:45:48
>> Oh, no, no, no, no. I thought the police
01:45:51
going to go, you know, the guy who owns
01:45:52
the hotel, the collector, the art
01:45:55
collector, the artist was really good.
01:45:57
>> He actually apologized to me for the
01:46:00
mistake he made. But the guy that bought
01:46:02
the work there uh he was a bit of an
01:46:05
[ __ ] and uh but anyway uh
01:46:08
[clears throat] it didn't go anywhere
01:46:10
ever then.
01:46:12
>> Didn't go [snorts] anywhere apart from
01:46:13
viral. It went viral.
01:46:14
>> It went viral.
01:46:15
>> Yeah. Why has why have why has um New
01:46:18
Zealand society got your name wrong? As
01:46:20
long as I can remember like I was born
01:46:22
in 1973 and every time I've heard you
01:46:24
mentioned in the news conversation it's
01:46:26
been pronounced Tama Tama. Yeah.
01:46:28
>> Tama. Why? Uh they have a problem with
01:46:32
their ears. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess
01:46:35
people have always get confused by ti.
01:46:41
They're totally different sound. Tama
01:46:43
and tam are two two different people.
01:46:47
>> Yeah. So people still call me tama.
01:46:50
>> T
01:46:52
not tama.
01:46:53
>> Thank you for clarifying that. Um when
01:46:56
you look back on your life's work, what
01:46:58
are you most proud of?
01:47:00
Well, I have no regrets and no apologies
01:47:03
for all the for everything that I I have
01:47:07
participate
01:47:09
and uh and I guess that the only thing
01:47:13
I'm not proud of was certain part of my
01:47:16
behavior as a male deal with it and uh
01:47:20
otherwise
01:47:22
that's me.
01:47:24
>> Did you want to elaborate on that or not
01:47:25
really?
01:47:26
>> What do you mean? your you you said you
01:47:29
some of your behavior as a male.
01:47:31
>> Yeah. Well, it's our dumb male
01:47:34
things that we do in as a young person,
01:47:37
you know, not not very good. And uh like
01:47:41
I said before, you know, I become a
01:47:43
bully. Yeah. Yeah. And so you have to
01:47:46
think about that. Uh that's not good.
01:47:49
Not just with with woman, but with men.
01:47:52
>> And uh
01:47:54
>> Yeah. when when you been subjected to
01:47:56
bulliness, you become a bully yourself.
01:47:59
Yeah. So, I'm not really happy about
01:48:02
that that part of it. But I let that one
01:48:04
go,
01:48:05
>> dealt with it, had a talk about it, had
01:48:07
a conversation a period of time, and um
01:48:11
>> Mhm.
01:48:11
>> Yeah. And then
01:48:14
here I am.
01:48:16
>> Well, we're all works in progress, eh?
01:48:18
Just trying to get better every day.
01:48:20
>> Yeah.
01:48:21
be kind to yourself
01:48:24
>> and being a kind human being you know
01:48:27
and enjoy those moments
01:48:30
>> you know and uh you know cuz I really
01:48:32
believe that there is a place there for
01:48:34
all of us
01:48:35
>> and it's it's it's okay to be different
01:48:39
>> and we don't have to think the same we
01:48:41
can have different [clears throat]
01:48:42
opinion we're allowed to have different
01:48:44
opinion
01:48:46
uh we should be allowed to be critical
01:48:48
uh about things that we he we're not
01:48:51
happy with and uh and having those
01:48:53
voices. So
01:48:55
>> that's me.
01:48:56
>> Are you proud of yourself?
01:48:58
>> Yeah, I think there's a a moment of it.
01:49:01
>> I'm happy that I think that I uh been
01:49:03
involved over a long period of time and
01:49:06
and still happening.
01:49:09
>> And if today was your final day on
01:49:10
earth, uh what would your last wish be
01:49:12
for the future of our Ted?
01:49:15
>> Smile,
01:49:17
>> be good, and be kind. M
01:49:21
>> it's a great country isn't it?
01:49:22
>> I love it.
01:49:23
>> Yeah
01:49:24
>> I love it. Alto is a really beautiful
01:49:26
place.
01:49:27
>> I think there's opportunity for all of
01:49:29
us there to be kind and
01:49:33
>> yeah be nice to each other you know and
01:49:36
um yeah and uh and not to be distracted
01:49:40
and not to walk on the booby traps and
01:49:42
the landmines that have been around us.
01:49:45
>> Clear the pathways.
01:49:49
Hey, this has been a really nice
01:49:50
conversation. It's been really cool. I'm
01:49:53
so grateful that you've been so generous
01:49:54
with your time. Um, you've got you've
01:49:56
got very kind eyes.
01:49:58
>> Yeah.
01:49:59
>> They're eyes that have seen a lot and
01:50:01
and uh they could be bitter eyes, but
01:50:03
they're not. They're very kind eyes.
01:50:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:50:05
>> Yeah.
01:50:06
>> Yeah. I guess so. That's that's a long
01:50:09
period of time doing that. M
01:50:11
>> m
01:50:12
>> and people used to question me about my
01:50:15
eyes and they couldn't look at me
01:50:19
and I think I have calmed down over the
01:50:22
years a period of time
01:50:23
>> you know um
01:50:26
time I guess
01:50:28
>> yeah
01:50:30
what's been great um in this book
01:50:33
Mana by Tamei
01:50:36
um it's a great book and you must be so
01:50:38
proud of
01:50:41
Yeah. Yeah. I I thank all of those, you
01:50:43
know, I can I thank all of the people
01:50:45
and do that publisher for allowing us to
01:50:48
be uh part and parcel in uh um creating
01:50:53
a space for me to be able to do this.
01:50:56
>> And uh thank you to them, to the
01:50:59
publisher, thank you to to the pano and
01:51:01
and everybody else.
01:51:04
>> Um my story is their story.
01:51:07
>> It's not about Tamiti. is about our
01:51:10
mana, about our sovereign rights, about
01:51:12
having the voice in the space. It's
01:51:15
about all that all and speaking the
01:51:18
truth.
01:51:19
>> Um, anyone that's watching or listening
01:51:20
to this, where can they get uh their
01:51:22
copy of the book?
01:51:23
>> Yeah, you can go on uh tamei.co.nz
01:51:27
and uh and my daughter-in-law task will
01:51:30
be there will respond to you immediately
01:51:33
and uh and uh she seemed to receive all
01:51:36
of that um every day. Got your family
01:51:39
doing all the work, eh?
01:51:40
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, [laughter] it's a family
01:51:41
effort. It's a collective
01:51:43
>> and available at all good bookstores,
01:51:45
right?
01:51:45
>> Yes.
01:51:46
>> Paper Plus, Wit Calls, Relay at the
01:51:49
airport.
01:51:50
>> Yeah.
01:51:50
>> The warehouse.
01:51:51
>> Warehouse. Wow. Yeah. Warehouse. Thank
01:51:53
you for your um invitation to be here on
01:51:57
your show.
01:51:58
>> C. Thank you so much for coming on my
01:52:00
podcast.
01:52:01
>> Yeah. Tet.
01:52:03
>> Thank you. Not me.
