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Jimmy Hunt, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you. >> Um, how are you?
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>> I am I am interesting. >> Yeah. No, >> I'm all over the show.
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>> How are you really? Like >> Yeah, that's that's the point. I'm
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interesting, right? So So the answer to your question right there is, "Oh, yeah,
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good. Thanks, Dom." I'm like, "No, I'm I'm interesting." Like uh
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>> what does that mean? Uh, interesting means that like there's there's the good
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and bad of life and there's the there's the demons I fight in my head every day
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and there's the there's the things I feel and uh don't quite understand and
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then the ones I do understand but it's just that it's that whole complicated
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process and that's life and uh so some good some not quite good but in general
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trending pretty So more yeah if there was a good bad column more good >> yeah there's there's more good there's
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more good than bad um but uh like I like the inquisition which you should do between friends of
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how are you really >> right there's a big difference between how are you
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>> and how are how are you >> how are you yeah no all good >> yeah yeah yeah exactly
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>> well I've heard you talk about um you know brutal honesty and uh the one to
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100 scale. >> Um, so if you applied that lens to yourself, where would you where would
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you be like today, right now? >> Yeah. I mean to to >> anything above 51 is good, I guess.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, what you're what you're referring to in my last book I
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call the mental health continuum. Runs from 0 to 100. I split up into five different areas and then I split those
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areas into emotional states, right? So 0 to 20 is uh severe discomfort. 20 to 40 discomfort. 40 to 60 okay.
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Um we got 60 to 80 is like good growth. And then 80 to 100 is contentment. >> And so when most people ah like 9 out of
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10 8 out of 10 mine's a little more subjective than that. And so like today I would probably be in the
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65ish range, which is a range where like everything's everything's better than
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okay. Everything's solid. Everything's good. But there's a whole bunch of
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things that I'm really sort of contemplating and working on. I'm not sitting in a state of just contentment.
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>> That sounds like a good Yeah, that's a good result, I think. >> Oh, no. That's a It's a decent It's a
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decent place to be. Yeah, cuz I think most people probably trudging trudging through life sort of in the 40 to 60.
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>> Well, yeah. That's actually in the 20 to 40, right? And in uh what I call
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discomfort, right? So discomfort is a state where like life is hard. Like everything is
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just takes that bit of a fight and is a bit of annoying and like it's like, man,
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I just wish everything was just a little more chill. Right? That's that's that 20
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to 40 range. And then 0 to 20 is the state of severe discomfort. And that is a state that you cannot subsist in.
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>> You can't live there forever because it is a severe discomfort. And so most
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people do just enough to get out of that and and live in that 20 to 40. Oh, I'm
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uncomfortable, but it's fine. I'll get by. >> Um, and so we separated at the start of
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last year. And she is the the deepest love I've ever had. Um, and it was a very hard process separating from her.
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Uh we'd lived eight years in Mexico and so I had to leave our home and and and
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come back here because I wanted to be back home and then back here trying to restructure my life. And you know last
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year I said very very very very tough for me and there were um there were months last year like a couple of months
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in particular that I was suicidal every day. Every single day I did not want to be here. And one of the interesting
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things with that compared to being suicidal now versus, you know, 15, 18 years ago
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was the tools that I'd learned this time around. And so I was never in any danger
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of taking my life even though I was suicidal cuz I was having these suicidal ideiations. I was thinking about it all
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of the time. And there were a couple of things that allowed me to be able to move through that.
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Number one was that every single day I had a phone call with my best best friend Rachel every single day and she
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checked on in on me every day. And even that makes me emotional because such a beautiful beautiful person to do that.
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Uh number two is knowing that this shall pass. Like this is a temporary state that I will end up moving through. But
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number three, and I think it's the most interesting, and it ties back to what I
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just said before about Sasha and Taran, was that one of the what I call the cornerstones
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of good mental fitness is the ability to observe your thoughts. M >> and the ability to observe your thoughts
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as a state is best learned through the process of meditation. Most people think that meditation is about quieting your
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mind and like clearing your thoughts when in reality what it really is is the ability to observe them without
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judgment. And so when I was in this state of deep sadness and not wanting to be here anymore, I
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was able to use this practice to separate, my consciousness from my body and observe the thoughts, the feelings
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and the beliefs that I was having during this time. And that separation, that detachment from that allows me to
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be able to see that I am not my thoughts. I am not my feelings. I am not the state. That is just a state that my
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body is currently in. And with that ability to observe allowed me to really put perspective on it and allow me to
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then start moving through that. It's still very alarming when you have those thoughts though because if you if
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you have those thoughts you could you could just have like one weak moment and you know you make an irreversible
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decision. >> Uh yes and yes and no. Um the the thing and this is just this is
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literally my experience with this is is that like there is like to me suicide is when
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there is no hope left. >> When you cannot deal with the pain of existence any longer. you've exhausted
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every single other option under the sun, then that is the only option left. And in order to relieve the pain, that is
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what you do. >> And I can understand that. I could absolutely I can sympathize with that. I can
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understand that I wanted to do that. But I could always see a tiny glimmer. There was always that.
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And it's one of those and that's why sharing this stuff is so vitally important. Even though I only did it
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with one real person, couple couple of people like they were enough to be the glimmer,
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right? Whereas if I had not told anybody, then there probably would have been a closer move towards the final option.
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And so that's when you talk to these people about it, they give you ideas, they give
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you options, they give you some hope. And so whether it is professional therapy, whether it's just them being
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somebody to lean on, whether it's like um come stay at my house, let's go hang
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out, let's go to the beach, let's like any of those things just gives you that
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little bit of oh yeah, cool. Like thank you. And helps you to understand that yes, you may not want to be here right
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now. But but that's the interesting thing is like like there only exists the present
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moment, right? Anything in the past is a memory and any anything that we're thinking about imagining is the future.
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And the present moment is hard in that state, but with different circumstances creates
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a different state. And with that different state allows you to to be in a different place. And so
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I mean I don't even really know what else I'm I'm talking about here. I've
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sort of got lost in it. Um but that's just the reality of of this situation.
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You do get lost in it and it's hard to put stuff together. But um those are my
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three things. The ability to share your story is really really really important to have someone to do that. And that's
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connection. That's community. That's that's people. The ability to observe your thoughts
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is a key key component that is h like you you when you talk about and you're like oh we should do this
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>> like this is how you do it >> like if you haven't practiced it like
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it's hard to do it just as a one-off thing. I'm like oh just just separate
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yourself from your thoughts and just look and you're like I don't know how to
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do that right >> but the more you've practiced it the better you're at it. Right. So you can
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do it in that in that moment. >> Yeah. >> Well, thanks for sharing that. Um I tell
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we we'll go back and then we'll um work through the Jimmy Hunt story. This is
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like a a great greatest hits. All right. >> Jimmy's greatest hits. >> So um yeah, early years. Who was Jimmy
00:11:00
Hunt? You were really good at sport, eh? Like North Harbor rep for hockey, tennis, and golf.
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>> Where the hell did you find that out? >> Did my research. >> Yeah. Yeah. I played I played hockey,
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tennis, and golf for North Harour. >> Yeah. What were you like? What were you
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like as a young fellow? You happy Lar? >> Yeah. Like a a Laran who loved sport.
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>> Um and I was very good at those things. Um hockey I only did for a short time,
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but made the North Harbor team just it was a weird thing. But uh yeah, uh golf I started playing when I was eight
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>> and I was down on basically a scratch handicap at 13. Um and I can still play
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good golf because of that. Um tennis I was I was very good played rep all that sort of stuff and um burned out of that
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tennis system. Was very good and then like went overseas to play some matches and realized oh actually I'm quite [ __ ]
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>> I'm north good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Even even New Zealand good right just doesn't doesn't equate to
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much. >> And so that kind of that kind of shattered who I was. Um because you know like people here were
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like you could win Wimbledon, you could. And you're like you [ __ ] can't.
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Like it's nice people saying nice things to you but you can't. >> It's a big fish small pond scenario.
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>> Yeah. And this sort of thing is that like it's sort of a pervasive thing and
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I'm not going to jump ahead too far since you are going through it this way.
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pervasive thing throughout my life is that I have never been good enough ever. No matter what I won, no matter
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what I achieved, it was never enough >> for you, >> for me. Um, and I sat down one Christmas
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um, and we're just talking like after lunch or whatever, and I said to my parents, "Just so you know, you [ __ ] me
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up." And my parents are absolutely wonderful. They are just beautiful humans. And they were like, "What?" And
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I was like, "You told me I could be anything. You told me I could win the Masters. You could tell me I I could win
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Wimple." And the reality was I I couldn't. And so and and so attached with later diagnosis
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and everything like the point is that like I just I never feel like what I have done is enough.
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>> Like it's never good enough. And so I've spent since then until now trying to
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make it okay for whatever I'm doing even if it's not much and taking that pressure off of
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myself cuz that's that's hard to live with. >> Yeah. Why did you never think you were
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you Yeah. you you were good enough. Was it a perfectionism complex or >> Yeah. It turns out it's a symptom of
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ADHD as well. >> Okay. Um but yeah, it's it's perfectionism. It's um expectations.
00:14:02
It's wanting to uh wanting to please people. >> Um >> wanting valid external validation.
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>> It's yeah 100% external validation of like you know people will like you if
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you do these things. >> Um but they might not like you if you just sit in a room with them. M.
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>> Um, but if you've got this and this and this and this, then they'll be like, "Oh
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my god, you're amazing." >> Um, >> is there you're jumping ahead a little
00:14:31
bit, is there still elements of that in you now with the with the the awesome things that you do?
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>> Yes and no. So, like throughout my adult life, yes, absolutely. Uh, if I did
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these big cool things, people would like me hopefully. Um, now like I have a real understanding of
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what drives me. I mean like over the last 15 years I've probably done more introspection than than most people
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around. And trying to understand myself and how I work and and how I work best and you know one of my core values is
00:15:08
freedom, right? So, the ability to just go and do um one of my sort of if you asked me, which you haven't, but
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if you asked me what is your favorite thing in the world, I would say the unknown.
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Like, the unknown just lights me up. The knowing bors me to tears. So, like if we were to go down and do a
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bungee jump, like I've done dozens of them for various reasons over over my life. Um,
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but I would go up there and I'd just go, "Oh, yeah, cool, fun. Jump off."
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>> It wouldn't bring you some sort of exhilaration. >> It doesn't neither does skydiving.
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Neither does anything else like that. Right. Like it literally doesn't because
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my mind my mind says this is 99.999999999999% safe right AJ Hackett's never had a never had
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a fatality a fatality in New Zealand this is literally 99.99% safe and so I was like h right whereas when I was
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growing up the two things that this is from the age of like 12 to 25 the two things that I did to an extreme level to
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go as fast as I could go and as high as I could go. My two favorite hobbies were
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cliff diving and racing downhill skateboards. Both things that like have no you have
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to well you have to you have to really prepare and control and and and train and all of that. But the unknown of that
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is is really important. But the adventures that I go on, like I can't go on a structured adventure. I need to go
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on an unstructured adventure. And two years ago when I walked the TA the turoa trail from Cape Rang to Bluff,
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it was it's different. There was there was some aspects of that that I really
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needed and I did that for a good reason. But in terms of adventure, it was boring
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because you follow a trail because because you go the same as everybody else. >> Yeah. It's not exactly It's not a foot
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path, though, is it? >> No, it is literally one of the most [ __ ] up hiking trails on the like
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there's not enough signpost. There's not enough there's not it's a it is a mess.
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And it is a big adventure to a lot of people, but it wasn't enough adventure
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to me. It needs to be more unstructured. >> Worth highlighting. Yeah. You you did
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that in like 90 days, like a 3-month walk, 38 km a day on average. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the average time is
00:17:53
probably about 150 days and I did it in 91. Um yeah, average 37 38ks a day. Um like just get up and go.
00:18:02
>> It's a big walk. >> Oh, yeah. 3,25 km. >> Yeah. So, um and so you you first
00:18:09
started getting sad or depressed in your mid20s. Were you were you married at the
00:18:13
time to your No, you were with your partner Joe. I was I was with a partner called Joe and then yeah we got married
00:18:19
at when I was 30. >> What happened? Was there um was there was there an a catalyst you know was
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there was there like >> to my depression? >> Yeah. An event or series of events?
00:18:29
>> No. That was that was that was sort of the thing that really perplexed me. So
00:18:32
I'm 44 now. So, we're looking at like let's say 18 years ago when I started to
00:18:37
get depressed and 18 years ago like John Kerwin hadn't even or maybe he had just done that first campaign in New
00:18:48
Zealand and so nobody was talking about depression. nobody understood um what it
00:18:54
really was in the common um place. And so I just started to get progressively sadder and sadder and really had no idea
00:19:02
why and felt like a [ __ ] It just felt like I was the only one in this state and I didn't know how or why. And so it
00:19:11
was it was creeping on me. >> And looking back um you know there's you know there's a few I think catalyst
00:19:21
to it. One which I think is quite interesting um with a lot of research coming out now is that I've had too many
00:19:28
head injuries. So I ended up with I think about 21 concussions between the ages of like 13
00:19:35
and 25 and >> doing what? >> Uh doing dumb [ __ ] skateboarding down
00:19:45
those activities that you >> cliff diving just so I was I was in the I was in the just pre-jackass
00:19:53
phase and we were doing that sort of dumb stuff and then jackass came out and we're like oh yeah let's make this even
00:19:59
crazier and so yeah I just did dumb stuff but I ended up it's no different to you know if I was if id played rugby
00:20:06
you know and ended up with lots of concussions from rugby or whatever but head injuries play a major part in um in
00:20:13
depression and anxiety and things like that. So I think that was a contributing factor.
00:20:18
>> Um and then like a real just not understand this like the amount of podcasts and books and everything about
00:20:29
self-development now um is phenomenal for someone looking to guide themselves through their 20s. But when you and I
00:20:36
were in our 20ies, we had nothing. Like nothing. We never read a book about this
00:20:41
stuff. We never listened to anything about this stuff. We just had to kind of figure it out. And I really didn't. And
00:20:47
I didn't understand who I was, why I was acting this way, why I was doing these
00:20:51
things. And it just got a progressive spiral downwards until like >> and it it's kind of like a snowball,
00:21:01
right? Just got it just got faster and faster and faster and faster. And I and I really didn't know why at the time.
00:21:07
>> How long were you living like that for? >> A few years. M >> um but again like it's even it sort of
00:21:13
blurs because like it was like I was good and then I was okay and then I was bad and then I was [ __ ] but it was a
00:21:22
>> like this weird sort of continuum down and then you'd have good days in between
00:21:26
and you'd be like ah and you put on a brave face and all that sort of stuff.
00:21:30
>> Yeah. Were you were you quite good at wearing a mask? >> Oh yeah, of course. Like everybody is
00:21:34
and like when you talked about Taran before, oh she was always so bubbly. Yeah, >> we are like and and it's not even just
00:21:44
we as in people who have had depression, anxiety, anything like that. >> It's everybody. You put on a mask when
00:21:52
you come here. This is not the real you that I am talking to. This is podcaster Dom,
00:21:58
>> right? And if if if we went and sat at your home, you'd be a different dom. If
00:22:04
you know if you uh were slightly drunk, you'd be a different dom. you know, like
00:22:09
we we put on these different masks and then, you know, we only reveal them to people as we go.
00:22:16
>> Um, if we choose to. And so, like, when I was in my worst state, you know, that
00:22:23
sort of 15 to 18 years ago, literally the only people that knew were my father and my wife.
00:22:29
>> That's it. >> Yeah. I heard um Yeah. You you'd call your dad and you like you didn't even
00:22:34
want to play golf on a s on the weekends with him. You'd stay in bed and your
00:22:38
wife you'd have a shower and your wife would find you like in the shower like
00:22:41
balling your eyes out like 30 minutes an hour later. >> Yeah. Yeah. Abs. Yeah.
00:22:46
>> An awful way to be living your life for that extended period of time. >> Yeah. And it really was like that shower
00:22:51
thing. Um it's interesting cuz like I lived my life in the moment and you are
00:22:59
quoting things from my book that I wrote 13 years ago, my first book. And I wrote
00:23:07
those. I gave them to the publisher. It went off and became a bestselling book. And I've never thought about those
00:23:16
things again. And I try I try and move forward. And and and you've literally
00:23:21
just reminded me that. Yes. Like I literally used to sit in the shower and just ball my eyes out and I had no
00:23:32
idea why. >> How often? like semi-regularly and that like I I remember that being a
00:23:40
catalyst for me actually going oh there's something seriously [ __ ] wrong with
00:23:46
you right before I was like I'm just sad I'm just having a hard time like never
00:23:52
like again at that time it was never you have depression >> um and so I was like oh no like there's
00:24:00
something genuinely wrong there's no reason like you know no one had done any
00:24:05
anything to me recently. There was nothing wrong with my marriage at that particular time. There was like there
00:24:10
was nothing that was >> the catalyst for me to be balling my eyes out in the shower. And so yeah,
00:24:18
like that was like a big wakeup call for me. >> Why didn't why didn't you take your own
00:24:25
life then? Like 3 years is a long time to be in that state. Eh, it's that's
00:24:30
>> it's heartbreaking. >> Cuz I'm a [ __ ] Oh. Oh. Like you too scared.
00:24:35
>> Too scared. >> Too much of a [ __ ] to take my own life. Like I could I couldn't do it. Like I
00:24:41
you know like the amount of times I wanted to I just couldn't do it. Um and one of the things for me is that like
00:24:51
I am too aware to be able to do it. I am I am hyper aware of what it would do to the people around me
00:25:06
and to my family and my friends and uh and I really like I don't want to cause anyone any pain
00:25:16
ever, right? I I want to all I want to do is bring joy to people, not pain. >> And so like I could I just couldn't.
00:25:25
There's no way I could do that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think that's quite courageous. But there's I can I
00:25:31
can understand it from the flip side. People that are like, "Oh, I'm just a
00:25:34
burden to everyone. >> I'll be doing the world a favor if I'm not >> 100% 100%."
00:25:40
Yeah. And I I guess I I just hope when I was in that state, I hoped that I would be able to
00:25:53
move through and be able to contribute in some way post. And I think that's one of the really
00:26:06
sort of interesting things is like you know I ended up like after that when I started doing my stuff and I started um
00:26:13
telling people about my story and everything which again was novel at the time. there weren't many people talking
00:26:20
about it and so like so many people resonated with simply me just sharing and it sort of snowballed up in me just
00:26:35
being able to >> like really find some purpose in what I was going through. And no matter what
00:26:44
that was, even to this day, it has allowed me to see like like I don't think everything happens
00:26:53
for a reason, but I think everything happens for a lesson. >> And so no matter what we're going
00:26:59
through, I think it has this beautiful ability to be able to help us and help other people around us.
00:27:06
>> Well, I mean, yeah, you really have like turned lemons into into lemonade,
00:27:10
haven't you? Like it's going through that three-year um ghastly battle, it
00:27:15
sort of changed the trajectory of your life. >> Oh, 100%. >> Yeah. Was that Do you think that's the
00:27:20
biggest adversity you've gone through in your in your life? >> I mean, I I I I guess so. I mean,
00:27:29
>> like I try not to compare my traumas. >> You don't rank them. You don't have a
00:27:36
top 10. >> I don't really have a top 10. Um but there's definitely a list of 10. Um
00:27:45
and so >> what's a perk of getting to getting to your 40s e like yeah you're going to
00:27:48
have to go through some adversity. >> Yeah. And and this is sort of like something that everyone really needs to
00:27:56
understand is that nobody gets out of this life without going through a whole bunch of [ __ ] So, there's a couple of
00:28:04
pieces that one, we should be um giving everybody as many tools as humanly possible to be able to deal with that
00:28:12
[ __ ] And then two, we should be able to share these stories as much as possible
00:28:19
because I and I love saying this to people, you are not [ __ ] special. You're not special. Like, you might feel
00:28:27
special, but you're not because your story is millions of other people's
00:28:32
story. And you might think it's slightly unique in some slight but and sure maybe
00:28:36
it is but in a general sense like we all go through similar [ __ ] >> We all have parents. All of our parents
00:28:44
are going to die before us pretty much, >> right? >> We're all going to lose a job.
00:28:51
>> We're all going to have a partner cheat on us probably. We're all going to
00:28:55
mostly according to statistics end up separated from our partners, right? Like these things are all going to happen and
00:29:04
so we better prepare for it and we better support each other when we go through that
00:29:10
>> because it's going to happen >> and we can only do that by sharing our
00:29:13
stories with each other. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Yeah. You I think you've got to expect [ __ ] to
00:29:19
happen and and then if if it if it doesn't for whatever reason then then good for you. But um you got to I think
00:29:25
that's where people fall off like when they when they're not expecting it to
00:29:28
happen and they get overwhelmed by it. Do you know the story of the Chinese farmer?
00:29:32
>> Oh, yeah. It might be good, it might be bad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
00:29:35
>> Right. >> Yeah. Actually, actually, yes. I'm sorry. That was that was that was rude
00:29:38
of me. I know it, but a lot of people listening to this or watching this won't
00:29:40
know it. You want to tell it? It's a great >> Yeah. I can do I can do it in about 60
00:29:44
seconds. Alan Watts tells it very, very succinctly. And basically, there was a Chinese farmer.
00:29:49
>> He had a son, lived in a village, they had a horse, the horse ran away. Um, the
00:29:54
son comes running up to the dad. Dad, uh, the horse has run away. this is horrible. This is we're poor. We're
00:30:00
gonna not be able to do all these things. Um and his dad goes, "Good news, bad news. Who knows?"
00:30:08
Son looks confused. Goes, "No, Dad. It's pretty [ __ ] bad news." And then the next day, the son comes
00:30:17
running back to the um the father. Dad, dad, dad, the horses come back and it bought six wild horses. We're the
00:30:24
richest family in the village. We've got seven horses now. This is amazing. this
00:30:27
is the best thing ever. And dad goes, "Good news, bad news. Who knows?"
00:30:32
Son's like, "No, no, no. Good news." Following day, uh, son is breaking in one of the
00:30:38
Broncos, gets bucked off, lands on the ground, breaks his leg, crying like a little baby. Oh my god, this is my leg.
00:30:45
My leg. And dad's like, "Good news, bad news. Who knows?" [ __ ] you, Dad.
00:30:51
>> By the way, that wasn't in the actual story that I read. The [ __ ] you, Dad.
00:30:54
>> No, Alan Watts didn't say that. Um, and then the following day, the Chinese army
00:30:59
comes around recruiting for a war that's going on, taking all able-bodied young
00:31:04
men, >> and he's like, "This is the best day ever. They're not taking me. This is so
00:31:08
cool." And dad goes, "Good news, bad news, who knows?" >> That dowist parable
00:31:14
also told in the story of maybe is one of the core understandings of allowing you to move through your [ __ ]
00:31:26
So, if you read that first book, it reads like a [ __ ] Shortland Street um narrative of my uh my ex-wife.
00:31:37
Um I have been married twice. >> You're bringing the average up. >> Yeah, I know. Um she basically left me
00:31:45
then, um found out about 6 weeks later she'd been sleeping with a friend of ours for about 9 months. Then um
00:31:53
>> this is during your your depression bout. >> This is so so when I finally succumbed to the
00:32:01
understanding that I was really not in a good way and there was something wrong with me. I went and saw five different
00:32:07
psychologists and they were all [ __ ] >> and they didn't help me. And then my dad
00:32:12
found me this one last dude and I went to him and he was brilliant guy called Dr. John Mchuan. And um within an hour
00:32:20
he kind of explained me to me and then said just do these things and and I was like uh okay. And I walked out of there
00:32:28
with hope with understanding and I was like holy [ __ ] this is going to be better. And then 7 days later my wife
00:32:34
left me. And he said that that is quite a standard thing because the the the partner will
00:32:43
stay with the person because they fear of if they left it would compound and then that person probably would kill
00:32:50
themselves. So like I understand that from that perspective. Um and then uh a few weeks later we
00:33:01
found out she was pregnant and went to figure out who it was. not man. And so um like that broke me broke me
00:33:10
broke me. >> [ __ ] >> Right. >> Broke me and I can cut this bit out cuz I forgot
00:33:21
where we were going. >> Oh um >> um >> yeah, we just talking about the your
00:33:27
marriage break. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And so that was the worst thing that ever happened to me in my entire life.
00:33:36
Not my depression, >> but that heartbreak and that betrayal. That was the worst thing that ever
00:33:41
happened to me in my entire life. And then 3 months later, I met Libby. The best thing that ever happened to me
00:33:50
in my entire life. still to this day, even though we're not together anymore, we amicably uh
00:33:57
separated and moved uh moved on. But what was ostensibly the worst thing ever, if that had not happened, I would not
00:34:11
have met Libby three and a half, four months later, I think. >> Mhm. Like so so if I had continued with that
00:34:19
narrative that that was the worst thing ever, I could have ended up going down some big thing, right? But but
00:34:24
understanding that we don't know whether that's good or bad turns out best thing
00:34:30
that ever happened to me. >> Best thing that ever happened to me, the end of that marriage,
00:34:36
>> which led me into a whole new life and a whole new world with Libby that's led me
00:34:41
to now. And even though we've separated and I went through a lot of pain letting
00:34:47
her go, >> still I don't know if that'll be the best thing that ever happened to me, but I
00:34:54
definitely know that it's not the worst thing and I can't judge it >> until I have perspective on it.
00:35:01
>> Well, it's surprising how many people say that. Like they'll go through some
00:35:04
big adversity and then they'll look back look back and um you just Yeah, you just
00:35:09
um spilled some water on your on your beard. Is is the beard a um >> I'm a mess.
00:35:13
>> I'm a mess. >> We got that on camera. Good. Um yeah, lot a lot of people that go through a
00:35:19
big adversity, they with the benefit of some hindsight, they often look back and
00:35:22
say it's the best thing that ever happened. >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting like there
00:35:26
was a there was a study done that I read that um so you have uh let's say you go
00:35:31
through something a trauma and they studied people who had gone through uh plane crashes, cancer, like all sorts of
00:35:39
things, right? And you basically end up in three different categories. Uh post-traumatic
00:35:45
stress disorder. Okay. Or post-traumatic growth. Right? And so when they studied all
00:35:54
these people, for argument sake, it's close enough too. Um they basically ended up a third, a third, a third,
00:36:01
right? So a third ended up with PTSD, a third were okay, and a third ended up with post-traumatic growth. And they
00:36:07
went, "Well, that's pretty interesting." like why is it split like that? And
00:36:12
obviously how could we have more people in the post-traumatic growth or at least
00:36:17
the the okay? And so the answer seems so paradoxical and crazy, but what they figured out was
00:36:30
what box you ended up in was the box that you believed you would end up in. If you believed you were going to be
00:36:39
traumatized by it, PTSD. If you believed, oh, I'll be okay, you were going to be okay. And if you believed
00:36:45
that you were going to grow and learn from this, >> then that's what you did.
00:36:49
>> That's so interesting. >> General terms, right? And this is about
00:36:52
like us creating our own reality, right? And so when we when we make a decision,
00:36:58
then we follow through with all the micro decisions based off the back. It leads us in particular paths in
00:37:02
particular ways. And so if we're like it's kind of like the the yellow car
00:37:08
theory whereas like you buy a yellow car and then you start seeing yellow cars absolutely everywhere, right? You see
00:37:14
what your attention is on. >> If you're looking for [ __ ] you'll find
00:37:18
[ __ ] If you're looking for good stuff, you will find it. >> And even like worst case scenario kind of
00:37:26
like me is that I ended up in post-traumatic growth out of spite. How do you mean?
00:37:34
>> Like like [ __ ] her. She's not going to ruin my life. I'm going to be good
00:37:38
regardless of what happened to me. Right. >> Do you talking about >> my my my first one?
00:37:43
>> First one. Yeah. How do you how do you reflect on that now? Like um that's it's
00:37:46
it's it's pretty brutal like breaking up and she's seeing seeing one of your
00:37:50
mates. >> But so like I have zero zero bad feelings towards her. I wish her all the
00:37:56
happiness in the world. Um, like I still love her for so many reasons, but as a 30-year-old man, I was angry at her and
00:38:05
I didn't understand and and and all of that side of it. Um, >> cuz you you you wouldn't have been easy
00:38:11
living with you at the height of your depression. No. So, it was interesting when I wrote
00:38:15
my first book, which told a lot of those stories. Um, Libby was there to proofread it. And Libby being one of the
00:38:24
wisest people I know, she said to me, "You should probably go back and rewrite
00:38:32
yourself worse and write her better." >> Cuz I don't think you were probably
00:38:39
objective enough on it. And I was like, "Oh god, you're probably right." And so
00:38:44
I went back and >> Oh, did you were you the like the victim in the story or
00:38:48
>> Yeah, probably to to more of a thing. you know, you want to be the victim. You
00:38:52
want to be the agrieved party. You don't want to be the one that did anything
00:38:56
wrong. And though and sort of it's easier to paint that narrative with the actual actions that happened,
00:39:04
>> whereas mine were more what I'd call micro in terms of the relationship. It's
00:39:10
like I was probably a [ __ ] husband. >> Like, you know, in my late 20s in that
00:39:15
state, not understanding anything. I was probably a [ __ ] husband who was really
00:39:19
hard to live with. M >> and so I don't agree with cheating in any um thing like that like it's just a
00:39:28
moral thing that I don't like but like I can also understand why she might have
00:39:35
>> and so I don't hold any negativity towards her in that regard. >> Yeah.
00:39:40
Yeah. So um on this you did a TED talk and uh the line in there was um that you used was I was 92% of the way through
00:39:47
destroying my marriage. So yeah, you're taking you're giving her 8% of the blame
00:39:52
or what? >> Yeah. >> Well, no. Well, yeah. Well, maybe is that what I said in my TED talk?
00:39:56
Awesome. I remember what I had for lunch yesterday. So, um >> that's Yeah, that that's use to to me
00:40:02
that says you're you're owning it. >> Yeah. >> So, that TED talk was a few years after
00:40:09
the that and I think definitely at that stage, yeah, if I Yeah, I was probably 92% of the way through ruining my
00:40:17
marriage. Um, not um, not consciously. Obviously, I didn't want to ruin my marriage, but I was ruining my marriage
00:40:29
through the inability to be able to look after myself. >> Yeah. I'm pleased there's still like a
00:40:37
friendship there now. >> No [ __ ] No, I haven't seen her. >> Oh, there isn't?
00:40:40
>> No. I've literally not heard or seen her since she rang me and told me she was
00:40:45
pregnant. >> Oh. No, there's the the the We'll get on to the um the the um Wet River on a lio um
00:40:55
challenge, but she you made a documentary about that and she was in the documentary.
00:40:58
>> Yeah. The the production crew when I saw her. >> Oh, I assumed everything was good cuz it was
00:41:05
like the the the caption in the documentary is like um you Jimmy's ex-wife. Yeah. So, I thought it was it
00:41:10
was friendly. >> Oh, no. Well, it was nice of her to take part in the docu
00:41:17
research can only get you so far. >> Yeah, lit literally. Um, they the like I
00:41:22
was actually I was worried about it. I didn't know what she was going to say or
00:41:26
what was going to happen. And >> I know she was very kind. I thought she she was very warm in the docker. She was
00:41:31
she was and you know the production crew were really lovely and um you know they
00:41:36
said I didn't see it before the documentary came out um but yeah um okay yeah so the the so you got out
00:41:48
of that bout of depression the three years um you made it through the other side
00:41:51
>> and that's when you started doing um epic [ __ ] with your life. Yeah. I mean, I was doing some cool [ __ ]
00:41:57
before, but not on a scale that you're about to say yes. >> Yeah. So, um, yeah, pedling down the
00:42:03
Weta River on a lio, 425 km. Um, and that's sort of like a a tipping point, I guess, in the in the Jimmy Hunt
00:42:11
story, right? When you Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a there's a massive tipping point. So, this that tipping
00:42:18
point came before the end of my marriage. So it came I can't remember exactly but maybe it was May in a year
00:42:28
and I was in this really bad place and I realized that there was one thing that always made me happy, one thing that
00:42:38
would always uh like help drive me forward and that was going on adventures. And so I decided that my tomorrow had to
00:42:48
be different than my today cuz my today sucked. And so I sat down and as I do I came up with a
00:42:57
random idea. And the idea was to swim an $8 pool float a lio from Tapo to Port Wetto the entire length of the Wetto
00:43:09
River. And I turned to Joe and said, "Uh, I think I'm going to lie the white kiddo." And
00:43:18
she's like, "How long is that? How far?" And I was like, "I don't know." And so I
00:43:25
I Googled it and went, "Oh, [ __ ] 425 km. That's quite quite a long way." Um,
00:43:31
and I was like, "All right." And so Facebook was a useful platform back in
00:43:34
the day. So, I went to my Facebook post and posted, "I'm going to lio the white
00:43:40
kiddo." And a lot of people wrote a whole bunch of comments. Uh, you're an
00:43:44
idiot. Um, you're going to die. Um, legend. And then this guy whose name is Guy said, uh, when are you going to do
00:43:52
it? And I was like, well, it's May. I'm fat and overweight and unfit and it's
00:43:59
cold, so February. And he's like, cool. what date in February? I was like, uh, I looked up
00:44:08
the first Saturday in February. It was like 7th or something. And I said, "Seventh of February." He's like, "Cool.
00:44:12
I'll be there to see you off." And I was like, "Fuck." Okay, now I have to do it. Like, I've
00:44:21
made it public. I've said I'm going to do it. This guy's now made me make a
00:44:25
date for it. And so, here it is. And so the thing about having a a goal like that or adventure like that is when you
00:44:34
make a a big plan, then in order to actually have this come to fruition, you have to start breaking it down. So you
00:44:42
got to start training, you start eating better, you got to start doing all of these things. You'll start planning in
00:44:47
order to make this a reality. And so every day that I woke up, you know, well, like you say, eight
00:44:54
months later, I was like, this is what I have to do. And so, what can I do today
00:45:01
to help make that a thing? And so for the next eight months, I just woke up every day going, "Okay, what am I doing
00:45:09
today to do this stupid adventure that means nothing?" >> Oh, you mean like getting physically
00:45:14
fit, you mean? >> Yeah. like anything I could do whether it's you know um uh physically fit or
00:45:20
just eating better um or planning like I didn't do much of that but um yeah mainly physical fitness was was about
00:45:28
getting fit for >> and and you went through um 26 lios >> no I think so did you do that research I
00:45:35
don't think it was 26 I think it might have been like 13 or 14 or something like that
00:45:39
>> um >> a lot they were [ __ ] >> 10 bucks 10 bucks at the warehouse they
00:45:43
leaked >> what were the um what Yes. That was like 2 weeks. 2 weeks on the the Wetto River
00:45:48
from start to finish. >> Took me 12 days. >> 12. Yeah. 12 days. >> 12 days.
00:45:51
>> Um and got massive massive mainstream news coverage. >> Yeah. >> Um
00:45:56
>> and they made a documentary about it like you said. >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:59
>> What were the biggest lessons from that experience? >> Ask for help. That's my simple lesson
00:46:03
that came out of all of that. Um that's what my TED talk was on. That was at
00:46:07
that time in our culture in New Zealand. Um, you know, John Kermit had started this uh, oh, depression is a thing
00:46:17
>> thing. And then I really just wanted to drive through this this ask for help
00:46:21
thing because it wasn't until I asked for help that >> I got some and then it started getting
00:46:27
better. Ironic, right? Imagine that. And so, and one of one of the interesting sort of
00:46:34
stories off the back of ask for help was like when you're in that bad state, like
00:46:40
you're not very good at your business. You don't, you know, I had self-employed, so I wasn't making as
00:46:44
much money. I pretty much had no money left. And I couldn't really afford to do
00:46:48
this adventure. And I just trying to figure out and make it work. And two main components were going to cost me a
00:46:54
bunch of money. One is um food and one is accommodation. And so I came up with a pretty simple plan which
00:47:03
was that I was to ask for help. And so each night I would get out of the river and I would uh go up to the nearest
00:47:10
house. I'd knock on the door and say, "Hi, my name's Jimmy. I just happen to
00:47:13
be liloing your river out here. Can I please stay the night and have some food?" And the the thing with that is um
00:47:24
that's a tough thing to do for a man with depression and anxiety. And so, like, I wouldn't lie, like I would spend
00:47:34
probably half an hour each night on the side of the river looking at all the houses trying to
00:47:40
figure out which one looked the kindest. Finally get up enough courage out of desperation, go knock on the door. And
00:47:47
in the end, my friend and I, we tried to figure out how many people I'd have to
00:47:51
knock on the door, how many houses I'd knock on before I'd get um 11 people to
00:47:57
let me stay the night. And in the end, I had to knock on a grand total of 11 doors.
00:48:05
Literally, every single person opened the door and said, "Hey, um I explained
00:48:10
to them what was going on." They're like, "Yeah, please uh come inside. Stay
00:48:14
on my couch from the spare room on the floor, whatever. Here's some dinner."
00:48:18
Then, um I'd wake up in the morning. Want some breakfast? Yes, please. Can I
00:48:22
pack you a lunch? Like, [ __ ] yes, please. Mhm. >> And we just don't quite understand how
00:48:31
many beautiful, wonderful people are out there who are willing to help. >> If asked,
00:48:41
they will not help if they are not asked to help cuz they will feel like they're
00:48:46
intruding. And that's one of the interesting concepts is they get it's kind of like you ever had a mentor?
00:48:52
>> Yes. >> Yeah. like you feel like you're taking from that mentor, right? That you're
00:48:57
getting all the things and you're not giving them very much. But if I went and
00:49:00
asked your mentor what they got out of being with you, they would have they'll
00:49:05
say all these list of things. They loved it. They people get joy from giving and
00:49:11
being asked to help. And if we do not ask for help, we are literally stealing potential joy from people.
00:49:21
>> We need more people asking for help. So more people can help and get joy from
00:49:24
that help. >> And yet we're so scared to do it. >> Well, it's like the uh the saying giving
00:49:30
is better than receiving. >> Of course it is. >> Um Oh, yes. So, so during that um that
00:49:37
um river experience um Yeah. around about the time you were going through Huntley, there was an incident where um
00:49:43
a teenage boy uh had jumped off the um the rail bridge in Huntley into the water and and was was missing, presumed
00:49:50
drown. And you you happened to stumble across the body the same time as the boy's uncle who was out looking for him.
00:49:57
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean this >> that must have been tough. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was tough.
00:50:04
Um and it was really tough. So fast forward just to after that I have to keep swimming down the river.
00:50:18
So after the cops came and we did all the things and um the uncle went back to the family on the riverbank, you know,
00:50:27
dozens of them hugged him and all that and I got in the river and kept swimming and I only lasted maybe a kilometer or
00:50:35
two because um I had never dealt with the dead body before. I'd never dealt with death in
00:50:45
that way. Most of us don't. Most of us, you might you might there might be an open casket
00:50:50
at at a funeral, but apart from that, most of us won't see a dead body. >> And I just broke down. Like I absolutely
00:50:59
broke broke broke down. Um and I was just inconsolable by myself on a lio in the Weta River.
00:51:12
And I got a phone call because a lot of um a lot of media had my number. Uh back then I had an iPhone
00:51:23
with a waterproof pouch that I could kind of push the buttons through the pouch.
00:51:29
And I got a phone call and it was from a number I didn't know and I answered it
00:51:32
and it was radio New Zealand and they went, "We hear you just stumbled across the body." And I was
00:51:39
like, "Yeah." And they're like, "Um, can we talk to you about it?" And I was
00:51:43
like, "Um, yeah." And they go, "Cool. We're on the air in three, two." I was like, "Oh,
00:51:51
[ __ ] I have no idea what they asked me. I have no idea what I said." When I hung up,
00:52:01
I was like so disappointed in myself because it was just not my place to say anything or like like talk to the family
00:52:12
about it. Yeah, I know some random dude on Lilo was part of it, but like it wasn't my place to be able to talk about
00:52:20
that situation and I did it and it hurt my feelings that I did that. And so >> you didn't have a lot of lot of time to
00:52:27
think about it though in fairness to you. >> I know in fairness to me but they
00:52:31
literally went 321 where oh [ __ ] And so you know radio New Zealand I'm major um
00:52:39
media outlet and so lots of um people listen to that and things pop off off the back of that. And
00:52:48
I started getting phone calls which I just ignored. And I got a phone call from my friend Locky and my friend
00:52:58
answered the phone and he said, "Mom's dead." And I was like, "Shit."
00:53:05
And I spent the next probably hour and a half, two hours floating slowly down the
00:53:10
river talking to him about his mom who' just died that day. Never told him what was going on, what I was doing,
00:53:18
what had been happening. And I just talked to him. And then when I hung up that, I had about 50 mis calls, bunch of
00:53:24
them from my mother, um asking if I was okay. >> Um and it was one of the toughest
00:53:32
days that I'd ever had to to deal with. >> And I still had about like there's no
00:53:39
houses on that. I still had about like 20ks to paddle, swim that day before I got I got in like 11:00 at night.
00:53:46
>> Um I didn't want to bother anybody. um I don't want to go knock on anyone's
00:53:53
door. So, I didn't know where I was going to stay. Um cuz like turning up at
00:53:57
11 o'clock at night or you know 10:30 or whatever it was was like and so um I got to Tala and there's a tavern
00:54:08
there and I went in and I asked if I could stay at the hotel there for free and the manager was like I can't make
00:54:17
that call only the owners can and they're in Oakuckland. And I was like oh don't worry about it bro I'll figure it
00:54:24
out. and he said, "No, no, no." And he called them up at like 11:00 at night
00:54:28
and said, "Hey, can this guy stay for free?" And they said, "Yes." Um, and I
00:54:34
still like [ __ ] that's beautiful. I love that. >> But whilst that was one of the hardest
00:54:40
days of my life, an interesting point was that was the literal spiritual awakening of my life that day.
00:54:54
Um, and it's a long story which I'll make it very very short. Three women who I did not know
00:55:05
told me I was going to find that body before I found that body. When I was talking to the uncle on the
00:55:14
sandbank in the middle of that river, I asked him how he ended up there and he was like, "You won't believe me. Two
00:55:21
women had told him to go and find that body before it was there. So in total, five women had told the
00:55:31
pair of us that we were going to end up in that spot that day before it had happened.
00:55:36
And that was the day that made me go, I don't understand how the universe works.
00:55:42
I don't understand what this is or how this works. And then every day after that got stranger and stranger and more
00:55:50
mystical and more weird woman turned up in my life and led me down a whole path to where I am now
00:55:58
which is I believe in everything and some of the things I've seen and do uh blow my own mind and I don't even
00:56:05
understand them. >> Yeah. >> And you attract weird women to your life. It seems
00:56:09
>> it seems it it seems to be the case. like, "No, this is like it's kind of
00:56:14
insane." Like like these women will come in to my life for like a day. >> One one of them was like a day came in
00:56:23
sat next to me at the beach in Mexico and and said these things and um I said, "Oh, you know, this is the Yeah. had
00:56:30
deep discussions and and like this is what I'm trying to figure out." And
00:56:33
she's like, "Boom." and we sat and meditated and and she did some weird
00:56:37
energy thing on me and then a whole new world opened up to me. >> Um, and then she left again.
00:56:44
>> Well, I suppose if if you if you're open to these experiences, then that's when
00:56:48
they they happen. >> So, that's that's exactly it. I mean, I could I could do 20 hours on on this
00:56:53
sort of stuff, but it like like I I grew up a militant atheist. like just like I
00:56:58
it's what I can see what I can understand what science tells me and then this world has just got really
00:57:05
really strange and the more I connect to it the the easier my life is the more I
00:57:10
understand it and the more beautiful it becomes. >> Yeah. So um after the Wetto thing that's
00:57:16
when you sort of blew up right like public speaking books. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
00:57:22
>> life changed just dramatically. >> Yeah. Like I was literally just going to
00:57:26
be a dude who went and lieloed the river. And I I'd liloaded other rivers before that. Um
00:57:33
>> it wasn't your first rodeo. >> It wasn't my first rodeo, but just
00:57:35
little ones, right? Just for for for a day sort of thing. Um I literally did it for me and for nobody
00:57:43
else. And I had no concept that me doing it and sharing my story would become such a thing.
00:57:51
Again, it's a real crazy story about how that even happened. You know, Matt Chism.
00:57:56
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. News journalist. >> News journalist.
00:58:00
>> Um Treasure Island host. Then he's written a couple of books now. He sort
00:58:03
of turned his back on the media and I think he's in a farm. Yeah. Exactly. You
00:58:08
know, has a good story about depression and everything as well. Um so after I had separated from my
00:58:14
first wife, there was a wedding and um the I drove my car as the wedding car and so I got to the reception with the
00:58:24
bride and groom first, but because it was soon after they hadn't um they hadn't changed our seating, I was
00:58:31
sitting next to um my ex-wife, which I didn't want to do. And so because I'm
00:58:38
walking around, I pick her up. I move her down to the other end of the building and I swap some people out and
00:58:45
I end up sitting next to Matt Chisum because of this and he's like, "What are you up to?" And
00:58:53
I was like, "I'm training for this Lilo the Yet thing." He's like, "What's
00:58:56
that?" He's like, "Why? Why are you doing this?" And my tagline up until
00:59:01
that moment was just cuz. Like, I'm just doing it just cuz. And I just got to
00:59:06
some like I was in a bad space that day. that was hard for me that day. And I was
00:59:11
like, he said, "Why?" And I'm like, "Because I'm [ __ ] depressed and I
00:59:16
have to do something about this." And he goes, "Oh, okay." And he listened and we
00:59:21
talked about it. And he goes, "Can I do a story about this?" I was like, "Who
00:59:25
are you?" He's like, "I'm Matt Chisum and I work for Closeup." I was like,
00:59:29
"Oh, okay." And so he goes and pitches it and they say, "No, we won't do a story about it
00:59:41
because nothing's happened yet." Like, "We'll do a story about it when you do
00:59:44
it." And I But after that catalyst, I g, okay, I want to do this. I want to make
00:59:50
this a thing. And so he said, "Look, is there a way that you can do something
00:59:55
beforehand that would be storyw worthy?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
00:59:59
train by swimming my lielo from Naron Beach to Rangitoto. And he's like, "Holy
01:00:05
[ __ ] that's good." Um, and so they got across the line, they hired a boat um
01:00:10
about 4 500 meters offshore uh from Narin Beach. I'm caught in the current of the tides whipping through between
01:00:18
Northhead and Rangi Toto. I'm battling myself and he looks down. He goes, "You've never done this before, eh?"
01:00:26
And I was like, "Nah, bro." He's like, "Do you want to ride to
01:00:32
Rangonto?" I was like, "Yes, please." And so they drove me to Rangonto. And
01:00:37
then I jumped out of the boat and swam up to the other side. Two thumbs up. >> Get the piece for camera.
01:00:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. And then that that piece on closeup was what started the real big
01:00:49
snowball of everything. And it was really just a normal dude telling his story with vulnerability
01:00:56
that really resonated and amassed a lot of social media following. Um then um book publishers came and asked me to
01:01:05
come and write my um my memoir they called it. Um and then you know all of these things started happening off the
01:01:14
back of that. >> Yeah. Where was Matt at at at that point? Um was he was he was he drinking
01:01:20
at the wedding? Was he still drinking? Had had he cuz he's he's been very
01:01:23
public about his mental health struggles. >> Yeah. So this was before this was this
01:01:26
was pre anything. This was pre anything. Um and um you know I mean I wouldn't
01:01:34
claim anything around it but like um me and him you know he came he came down um
01:01:42
to the Lilo while I was doing it as well did another story. And so we we had a whole thing um over the next couple of
01:01:48
years talking about this stuff between us. Yeah. >> And was it after that after the Lilo
01:01:53
that you formed Live More Awesome? >> Yeah. So when I got out like I I'd
01:01:57
created all of this momentum and then I realized like so I ended up with like 25,000 people on a Facebook event page
01:02:05
cuz I didn't have anything for them to follow back in those days, right? And I
01:02:09
was like, "Oh, now this event's finished. I can't even talk to these
01:02:12
people anymore." like they they all just disappeared cuz like I was like what was
01:02:16
the point in even collecting them there and I was like I need an entity in order
01:02:21
to if I'm going to do anything else in this advocacy I need I need something
01:02:25
and so I just sat down and came up with the name Live More Awesome because everyone would like to live just a
01:02:31
little bit more awesome. >> Yeah. And and was it the water slide after that?
01:02:37
>> Yeah. So I mean we sort of we did a whole bunch of little things. Um, >> what are some of the other little things
01:02:42
that I may have missed? >> Ah, like um like just dumb little things like um I did New Zealand's biggest
01:02:49
water balloon fight um where where we had a couple hundred people throwing thousands of water
01:02:55
balloons at each other. Just little little fun things like that. But then I did um like I did a gratitude in schools
01:03:01
program. I got a grant for like 10 grand and we got like 20,000 gratitude journals printed up and put them in
01:03:07
schools and stuff like that. But it got to this point where I was really really adamant that the way
01:03:15
that we were talking about mental health was insufficient cuz we talk about mental health in a inherently negative
01:03:22
way. So if somebody like if you watch the news or something quite often they will say somebody was
01:03:29
suffering from mental health. M >> you're like, "No, they may have been
01:03:34
suffering from a mental illness, >> but they weren't suffering from mental
01:03:39
health. Mental health is just a thing." >> Yeah. Yeah. That annoys me so much.
01:03:43
Everyone has mental health. >> Exactly. >> And so that's when I started realizing
01:03:47
that there were two binary options for us. You were either mentally ill >> or you were mentally well.
01:03:54
>> Those were your two choices for a long long long time. And no one wanted to be
01:04:00
mentally ill. And so if they weren't mentally ill, they would just if they were mentally ill, they'd just be
01:04:05
saying, "No, no, no. I'm mentally well." Those were the two boxes. And that's
01:04:09
when I really wanted to start talking about my continuum and my rebrand from mental health to mental fitness
01:04:20
because we inherently understand what fitness means because we all inherently understand physical fitness and we've
01:04:27
been taught it our entire lives. Everyone has some level of physical fitness, right? So if I say, are you
01:04:36
fit? You might go yes or you go yeah, no. Like like where where's that line of
01:04:43
you're not fit and you are fit, right? Physical fitness is a continuum. You put
01:04:50
in small incremental efforts over time, you get physically fitter, and then you get all the benefits of being physically
01:04:55
fit. Mental fitness is exactly the same way. Small incremental activities done over time make you
01:05:05
mentally fitter. >> The more mentally fit you are, the more you're able to deal with what comes
01:05:11
along. I have two very scientific words for the top and the bottom of my continuum. And um at the bottom is
01:05:19
fuckwithable, right? So if you're down the bottom of the mental fitness continuum, you're
01:05:24
[ __ ] Everything [ __ ] with you. Other people [ __ ] with you. The weather [ __ ] with you. Traffic [ __ ] with you.
01:05:29
Like everything [ __ ] with you. >> If you are up high 90s to 100, you are unfuckwithable.
01:05:39
It doesn't matter what happens. You're the you're the Chinese farmer.
01:05:44
You're just like that happens. Okay. That doesn't happen. Okay. It's there's
01:05:48
there's literally nothing that can [ __ ] with you. And so the more effort and the more tools and the more
01:05:57
understanding that you get over time and move yourself up that continuum, the more unfuckwithable you become
01:06:03
>> and the easier, happier, and more peaceful your life is. >> And so I needed so I needed to um I
01:06:10
needed to get that across. That was the point here. I needed to get that across,
01:06:14
but nobody would listen. And so I came up with a very simple thing which was I would manipulate the
01:06:20
media to be able to do that by building the world's biggest water slide >> which was [ __ ] great. It was 650 m.
01:06:27
>> No, 601.98 says Guinness. >> I I >> So it was a world record at the time.
01:06:33
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. It is a Guinness World Record. I don't know if anyone's beaten it. Um
01:06:37
someone probably would have told me if they had. Um 601.98 m long. >> Yeah. And and this um you got even like
01:06:44
international news coverage like he had like a nine nine minute piece on like Good Morning America or something.
01:06:49
>> Yeah, it was the Today Show. >> The Today Show, right? >> The the competitor to Good Good Morning
01:06:54
America. Um yeah, I had 9 minutes on there and >> which is absurd. >> It's absurd. What is more absurd is that
01:07:01
they sent this um reporter out called Jenna Wolf. And Jenna was lovely. And me and her got on like a house on fire. And
01:07:11
the thing about the media was like this wasn't about the water slide. This was
01:07:16
about my rebrand to mental fitness. I wanted everyone to understand mental fitness. And so
01:07:24
I would do this deal with any media that contact me from around the world. I will
01:07:29
talk to you if we talk 50% about what I'm doing and 50% about why I'm doing
01:07:34
it. And they were all like, "Yeah, cool. If there's a story behind it, that's kind
01:07:39
of even better." And so I would I would talk about mental fitness and then the
01:07:43
water slide. The Today Show are [ __ ] They just like, "No, no, we no, we're not talking
01:07:51
about they they said we're going to do it and we are not going to talk about
01:07:55
mental health at all, but we will do a whole segment on the water slide." And
01:08:02
so that broke my rule, but I was like, uh, okay. because it's such a big opportunity.
01:08:10
Jenna came out to where we did it. So, it's a long story, very short, but basically a billionaire paid me to take
01:08:16
the water slide to his ski slope in New Jersey where we put it down. That's where Guinness came and gave us the
01:08:22
record. That's where we did the Today Show stuff. And so, she came out to this
01:08:27
um ski resort a day early. And we just got on like a house on fire. Seven of those nine minutes we talked
01:08:34
about mental fitness. M >> the truck was in her ear the entire time going, "Shut up. Shut up. Get it back to
01:08:43
the slide. Get it back to the slide. Go back to the slide." And she because she
01:08:47
believed in what I was doing so much, she stayed with me and talked mental health on prime time American
01:08:53
television. >> Why were they so anti it? >> Because even this is so that was like
01:08:58
>> it's not it's not a fun morning topic. >> Yeah. 2015. >> Yeah. Um, and even though I'm not
01:09:03
talking about depression, suicide, anxiety, anything like that. I'm talking about mental fitness. That's the whole
01:09:07
idea of the rebrand, right? That we want to be understand like it's just like
01:09:11
fitness. That's it's all it is. It's just like fitness and here are the
01:09:15
things we can do to get fitter in this way. Like I'm not talking about the negative, dark, deep stuff. I'm talking
01:09:21
about these are the things that make us better. And they just didn't understand
01:09:25
that. Uh, but she did. And so we ended up, you know, doing that in a really good way.
01:09:32
Yeah, that's really powerful. Did did all did all this stuff at the time um like you the attention and the the
01:09:38
results that you were getting did it did it bring you happiness >> in the moment?
01:09:46
Um >> because it's sort of external validation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of
01:09:52
the really big things. And in my second book, I wrote about it because it was a and this is not from a bragging place.
01:10:01
Um, it's from a because I don't think it's a good thing. Like I think it was 2013,
01:10:09
I had a really big year, right? So I wrote a bestselling book. I um opened TEDex Oakland in front of two and a half
01:10:16
thousand people. Um I built the world's biggest water slide. I um did a national ad campaign for the
01:10:25
biggest company in the country uh where I got to do all of the coolest things in
01:10:29
the country and I was a finalist for New Zealand Innovator of the Year and I was
01:10:33
a for my slide design because no one had ever designed a interlocking um the whole big thing and I designed it myself
01:10:40
and so I got finalist for New Zealand Innovator of the Year and then I was a finalist for New Zealander of the year
01:10:45
as well >> and >> it was it was pe Jimmy Hunter you're on fire. That was peak. And at the end of
01:10:51
2013, I was real sad. And I was real sad because the book didn't sell enough copies. The TED talk
01:11:00
didn't um get enough views. The water slide didn't raise enough money or
01:11:04
awareness. Um that product I fronted sucked and died. And I did not win either of those two big awards.
01:11:12
>> Is it like what we were talking about at the beginning? How nothing's nothing's
01:11:14
good enough? >> Nothing was that none of that stuff was good enough. And that was when I
01:11:19
realized that I had done enough to get from severe discomfort to discomfort, but I had stopped there.
01:11:29
>> Like I hadn't gone any further. Like it's like I still have a problem. It's
01:11:34
not the same problem that I had before. >> Um but it's still a like if you can do
01:11:39
all of those things and not and not be happy, then it's the same as people who
01:11:44
um you know win the lotto. Um, if you win lotto, no matter how much it is, your uh pre-la happiness levels return
01:11:56
to sorry, your happiness levels return to pre-la happiness levels within six weeks.
01:12:05
>> How are you? >> How are you, JJ? What brings you in here? >> Hold that thought. I need your car keys
01:12:09
urgently. >> So sorry. Landon wants to get his boat out. >> Oh, it's all right.
01:12:15
>> Thank you. I'm so sorry. Continue. >> No worries. As you >> start that piece again.
01:12:19
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. You fill your water up. How's your How's your temperature?
01:12:23
>> Yeah, I'm all good. I'm going to eat whatever you >> um Oh, yeah. Lotto winners.
01:12:28
>> Yeah. So, it's it's the same as lotto winners, right? So, they've done many,
01:12:33
many, many studies on lotto winners. And your happiness levels post winning the lotto will return to pre-loadto winning
01:12:41
levels within about 6 weeks to about 3 months. That's how long winning the lotto makes
01:12:49
you happy, right? And so you may uh you you'll just be unhappy with a better
01:12:55
quality of life, >> right? So you're you're unhappy, but now you got a boat,
01:13:02
>> right? >> What is it? There's like a like a dopamine or serotonin thing. Like it
01:13:06
gives you a quick quick rush. >> Well, it's just it's like wherever you
01:13:10
go, there you are, >> right? >> Yeah. Confucious. >> Yeah. Like you what the problems you had
01:13:18
before winning lotto are probably only going to be exacerbated after winning lotto,
01:13:23
>> right? >> No matter what you do. like the problems I had at the end of 2012 were the same
01:13:30
problems I had at the end of 2013 even though I'd just done all of those things
01:13:34
>> right they those doing those things solves nothing >> solves nothing and so that was when I
01:13:42
realized oh I really have to do some work >> within >> more work going going inwards
01:13:51
>> yeah I was I was pretty much the same like I accumulated as many material
01:13:56
possessions as what I could. And it's only when you when you reach the top of
01:14:00
that mountain, you realize, oh, it's not what I thought it was going to be. >> Um, yeah. And that's quite alarming when
01:14:05
when you accumulate all the things that you think are going to make you happy and it doesn't work.
01:14:09
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, when you look at like uh Robin Williams or Kate Spade or
01:14:14
any like these these are people at the top of the game who killed themselves. Yeah.
01:14:17
>> And you know, Jim Kerry said, "I wish everyone could be a multi-millionaire so
01:14:23
that they realize it's the answer to nothing." H yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:30
Money can't buy you happiness. I I think think there's like a base level, but the
01:14:33
base level is a lot lower than what people think. >> Yeah. So, the base level was um about
01:14:36
2015 Harvard came up with the idea that $75,000 per year. So, let's say that's h 100red
01:14:43
grand US per year now. Um is uh the level that um is peak happiness. So every dollar that you earn up to
01:14:53
$100,000 US a year um makes you happier because it improves the quality of your life and then every dollar over that
01:15:02
well there's a there's a level that sort of plateaus out for quite a while but
01:15:06
then lots of money can actually bring it down because suddenly like the stress is
01:15:11
so much more um gold diggers or people trying to take your money you know become so much more of a thing and you
01:15:18
know as Biggie said more money, more problems, right? And so, yeah, that that was a Harvard happiness study that
01:15:27
showed that. >> Yeah. So, um why why TA? Why did you do that walk? >> Um the Tiata trail, which is the length
01:15:35
of length of New Zealand >> that um Yeah. And that didn't get sort of much
01:15:40
mainstream media attention. Did you sort of press release it? Is it just that the
01:15:44
media's sort of changed? >> I can tell. No, no, no. I can tell you exactly why. Was that something you did
01:15:49
more for you than >> Yeah. So, um I was meditating on a beach in Mexico and the voices in my head said, "You
01:15:57
need to go walk the length of New Zealand." And I said, "I can't afford
01:16:00
that. You know, it takes it takes 3 months and costs a bunch of money." And they said,
01:16:06
"Yes, you can." And then um uh about two weeks later I got a job for 30 grand and they went there you go. And
01:16:19
so I was like all right and then so about 3 months later I just started walking and
01:16:27
basically uh to answer your question about like yes it was for me there were lots of things that I needed to learn.
01:16:33
Uh, one of the one of the more interesting things is that because I went very fast. U, I'm just a fast
01:16:40
walker. I have a hiking group in Mexico where we hike in the jungle three times a week. So, I'm fit, I'm fast, and I
01:16:48
basically would scare the hell out of walkers. >> Why? With your briskness.
01:16:57
>> You wonder why, right? So, we're walking in the middle of nowhere. I'm coming up behind them. I'm like,
01:17:04
"Hi." Coming. Passing. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. 95% of people walking on the TA by
01:17:17
themselves are wearing headphones. >> Disconnected from everything around them, but most
01:17:26
importantly, disconnected from themselves. They're literally distracting their brain from being alone
01:17:32
with itself. >> I had 91 days I did without headphones, without any stimulus
01:17:38
>> where I just was with myself. And it's a really interesting thing and
01:17:44
it's basically just a very very long walking meditation where you observe your thoughts and the
01:17:52
question is how long do you have to observe them before they dissipate until there's nothing left to think?
01:17:59
>> How long was 90 days enough? >> Not really. >> But there were definitely patches in
01:18:06
there where it got very quiet. Um, but what's interesting is when you observe
01:18:13
the initial thoughts for long enough, they're usually the inane [ __ ] And when you've let that inane [ __ ]
01:18:21
just dissipate over time, then the quality of your thoughts starts getting better. And so over that period of time,
01:18:28
I learned a lot about myself. And it was a really interesting way. And so my the
01:18:35
public part of of my walk which was interesting I was uh my my theme was connection. Connection with the self
01:18:44
connection with the land and connection with each other. I have a keynote talk um that I give is called connection is
01:18:52
the cure. The cure to what? Cure to pretty much everything. If we can connect with ourselves, the land and
01:18:57
others it solves pretty much all of our problems. And so by walking by myself without
01:19:03
headphones, I was able to connect with myself, by being on the TA, literally one of the
01:19:10
most beautiful trails in the entire world, I was able to connect with >> this beautiful country in a way that I
01:19:17
had never been able to cuz you go places where you cannot drive, right? >> And then connect with others is one of
01:19:26
the core components to us living happy and healthy lives. And I got to do that each night wherever I was staying.
01:19:32
And so I had this sort of call to action around connection and getting people to
01:19:37
connect in these ways. And why wasn't it as successful as all the other things I
01:19:44
did? Like we So the water slide had two documentaries about it. Um the first one
01:19:50
on the Travel Channel had 20 million views in the first month I think it was. Um, we generated tens of millions of
01:19:59
dollars in media coverage. Like it was a whole whole big thing. Lilo was very successful in New Zealand. This was
01:20:05
nothing. And I knew this was going to be nothing. And you know why it was nothing? Cuz it's not remarkable.
01:20:12
This is one of my favorite lessons. And it's not a mental health lesson. It's um a business lesson. It's about
01:20:21
marketing. It's from Seth Goden who is like the king. >> Oh, you've got one of his books, Purple
01:20:25
Cow. Yep. He's the king of marketing. And he says if you want something to be
01:20:31
successful, it has to be remarkable. And to take that to the core of the word, it is to remark about.
01:20:44
And so if I asked you like we we had a chat um before this podcast and if I said to you when was the last
01:20:53
time you went out for dinner, >> you know. When was the last time we went out for dinner?
01:20:59
>> Oh, last weekend. >> Yeah. Yep. Was it good? >> Yeah, it was nice.
01:21:02
>> Yeah. Was it remarkable? >> No. >> No. You haven't been going around
01:21:06
telling me about it. You haven't told anyone else about it. Right. So, it's
01:21:09
just good. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So, it's it can't be good. It can't be
01:21:13
great. It has to be remarkable, right? People have to actually talk about it. >> And because my background is in
01:21:20
branding, if I had swam the Wetto River, that would have been a more impressive physical feat. I swam I swam it floating
01:21:31
on a lio, right? There were some guys the couple of weeks before me that um uh jet skied the whole length of the wake
01:21:39
at a river and they got no attention. swimming it would have got less attention than lieloing it. I did it
01:21:45
dressed in a captain's hat, a dress shirt with a bow tie. And it was a [ __ ] lio.
01:21:53
It's remarkable. People, have you heard about that dude that's that's liloing?
01:21:58
It's ridiculous. The world's biggest water slide is remarkable. You want to talk about that?
01:22:06
Walking the length of New Zealand is not remarkable because thousands of people have done it
01:22:11
and they even made a trail for thousands more to do it. >> Right. There's a map you can follow.
01:22:17
>> So did you do it more for for yourself? >> This was far. This was far more for me.
01:22:22
Right. >> And so >> the other ones were for a really good reason and cause
01:22:28
>> but I've moved away from the need of validation to do big cool things for me.
01:22:34
Um, so now I just do them for myself >> and the TA was for myself, but it actually did have some really good
01:22:46
positive net outcome through social media and and and people that follow me and all that sort of stuff. So really
01:22:51
engaged in a lovely way. >> Yeah. >> And the cool thing was I had a tracker
01:22:55
on me. I think something like 200 people came and found me on trail and came and
01:23:03
walked bits with me. >> That's well that's a community that you've built over over many many years.
01:23:09
Yeah. And also um I mean yeah like like it's not remarkable remarkable but still
01:23:14
you know you get a hund a thousand people in a room and maybe one of them will do it like the percentage of people
01:23:19
that are going to walk the length in New Zealand. >> But but where would you asking
01:23:22
specifically about the media landscape and so it is not remarkable to the media landscape
01:23:28
>> right there's nothing particularly newsworthy about another person walking
01:23:34
the length of news. >> Yeah. Or quirky. >> Yeah. Exactly. Do do you want to do
01:23:39
um another remarkable thing or have you sort of passed that chapter? >> Uh I still want to do remarkable things.
01:23:45
So whatever I do, I want it to be remarkable but remarkable for myself. So I trade in stories.
01:23:53
>> All right. So you know my actual job uh if anyone needs me, I'm a keynote
01:23:58
speaker that does um you know conferences, events, corporates, all that sort of stuff. And I trade in
01:24:03
stories. That's my that's my bread and butter. But what I do is I use those
01:24:07
stories, metaphors and analogies to translate highle neuroscience, esoteric, psychology, positive psych, whatever. I
01:24:17
use those stories to translate them. And so having new stories, they're remarkable stories that I get to hide
01:24:25
learning information inside. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're a hell of a
01:24:29
wrecker. >> Yeah. Out and about doing a great storyteller. Oh, you from from the walk,
01:24:34
what were the like what were the big lessons? What were the key lessons or things you learned about yourself?
01:24:39
>> Um >> I feel like you you're probably one of the most introspective people I've ever
01:24:42
met anyway. >> Yeah, I it's true. Like I spend a lot of time thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And and that
01:24:50
is obviously one that that that drives that drives a lot of in introspection. >> Um I don't quite know the answer to that
01:24:57
thing, but I'm going to tell you a story from day five of the walk. The first uh
01:25:04
day six, the first four days are [ __ ] >> Is that 90 mile beach? >> 90 mile beach.
01:25:11
>> Just just gray sand everywhere. >> The se it's sand dunes and ocean and it
01:25:17
just extends as far as the eye can see and it's demoralizing. It's a hard way
01:25:21
to start. Um then you walk um up into Kitea and then um the next day is out into the I can't remember the name of
01:25:33
the rangers there. And I walked out and this was two years ago when we had all of those cyclones that just messed up
01:25:41
the country. And I walked through three cyclones in the North Island on this. It
01:25:45
rained on me 95% of my days in the North Island. That was demoralizing to pretty
01:25:51
much everyone around me and was a really good lesson for me to be able to go, I'm
01:25:56
actually okay. I'm dealing with this much better than everyone around me. And
01:26:00
I think that's a testament to the work that I'd done. But I got turned around by these hikers
01:26:07
coming back the other way and the um the trail was flooded. Like what was supposed to be a little stream was a 2
01:26:14
meter deep like raging torrent. No passing. um doc that was um trail A couldn't get trail B had already been
01:26:25
closed by doc and the state highway between Kite and South had been closed. There was literally no way through and
01:26:34
so we had to figure out what we wanted to do and like you wanted to walk but like um TA and Doc were saying everyone
01:26:41
should um go around to Kerry Kerry and just skip that whole section about 45ks. A lot of people didn't want to do it and
01:26:48
I was like, I got places to be. I'll skip that 45k section. And because I'm cheap, I decided to
01:26:54
hitchhike and Northland's great place for hitchhiking. And so I go out and I
01:26:58
start hitchhiking. And um no one's picking me up. I always get picked up real quick. And I just hear these voices
01:27:04
in my head say, "Go to the bakery." And I've come back from Mexico. I could
01:27:08
always go a pie. Um but like I was like, "I don't see any bakeries." And but this
01:27:14
voice in my head just kept saying, "Go to the bakery." And then I looked and
01:27:16
like down the highway there was like a sandwich board. I thought maybe that actually looks like a bakery. I walk
01:27:21
down to the bakery and um I take one step in and this big marry guy goes, "Oi, what's that?" I was like, "Um,
01:27:29
that's my GPS tracker." Oh. He starts asking me all these questions about
01:27:33
that. He go, "Oh, we need some of those." I was like, "Oh, cool." He said,
01:27:36
"What are you doing?" I told him what I was doing. He said, "Cool. Um,
01:27:40
then you're coming with us." I was like, "All right." And so I took a step back
01:27:45
out of the bakery with him and his mate, got in the car and they were going to Kerry Kerry.
01:27:50
>> And so we're chatting about mental health, mental fitness, um the difference between the way the western
01:27:55
world looks at it and the indigenous way looks at it. And then we start talking about language and how um indigenous
01:28:02
language is a language of the heart and western language quite often language of
01:28:07
the head. And he said, I'll give you an example. He's like arro. He's like, "You
01:28:13
think it means love?" >> I was like, "Well, yeah, I do. Isn't
01:28:18
it?" Well, if you know five words in Maldi, you know, ara is kind of one of
01:28:23
them, right? Um, and he's like, "Yeah, but it's not it's not not quite right."
01:28:28
I was like, "Oh, yeah." And he said, "The root of Aroha, you have arro and ha
01:28:38
means to pay attention to something. Ha is the breath of life. So aroha means to pay attention to
01:28:51
somebody's utmost being. And aroha for the self is to pay attention to your utmost being. And he
01:29:01
said so aroha isn't just love. >> It's connection. It's being seen.
01:29:11
And I was like, "Okay, I'm just wiping this little tear down in the back in the back of the
01:29:17
car." >> You were Did it make you emotional? >> M made me emotional. Gave me a little
01:29:20
tear. >> And I just understood >> that like, >> yeah, we want to be loved,
01:29:31
but we really want to connect with people, >> but we really just want to be seen.
01:29:40
And that changed the way I looked at so much from there. >> [ __ ] that's powerful. E, if you open
01:29:46
yourself up to these things, then you just you do just end up meeting these sorts of people and having these sorts
01:29:51
of conversations >> every day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Where do you think things are at now
01:29:58
with um like mental health? Like is there Yeah. Mental Yeah, actually the whole mental health you can say mental health
01:30:06
for that. Yeah. Yeah. like do do you think um like it's better or worse than
01:30:10
when you started on this journey? >> Um well, it's demonstrabably better.
01:30:19
>> Like, uh the fact that there are so many more resources, there's so many more
01:30:24
people telling their stories and talking about it. Um you know, going back that 15 odd years ago, like to now, it has
01:30:31
changed. I used to get asked to come and speak at companies and they would literally bring me in the back door and
01:30:37
say, "Don't tell anyone you came here to talk to our people cuz people will think
01:30:40
that, you know, we've got a problem." >> Right? Now, when I go in, they take my
01:30:44
picture and post it everywhere. >> You know, that's the corporate difference. It's massive. So, that's
01:30:50
that's amazing. And there's a point in many sort of different um problems in our society where you get to
01:31:06
a point of awareness saturation. Like we're all aware. Like there's not a person you can talk
01:31:14
to who doesn't know what depression is and know kind of how it works, right?
01:31:17
We're all vastly aware of depression. And so the awareness piece, while it still needs to keep going blah blah
01:31:25
blah, we're really needing the landscape to transition to the action piece >> of actually getting people to do stuff
01:31:37
differently. And so like whether it is learning to observe your thoughts, whether it is
01:31:44
learning to regulate your nervous system, whether it's learning how to connect better, learning how to be
01:31:50
vulnerable with people, learning any of these skills, the facilitation of this needs to be put to the forefront.
01:31:58
>> We need to change the way that people are actually doing things. We we need to
01:32:04
like in the corporate example, oh, you know, now we can talk about it more. Cool. Now, let's set up our workplaces
01:32:11
differently so we're not burning everyone out. Massie University uh last year there like 78% of the workforce is
01:32:19
currently at extreme risk of burnout. >> Like what the [ __ ] Like that doesn't mean you're weak that
01:32:28
you can't hack it. That means that the system is set up to ruin people. >> And until we start actually changing
01:32:37
these systems, whether they're in our households, in our schools, or in our businesses, we will continue to have the
01:32:44
same results. >> And so the call now is action, is change, is actually doing these things
01:32:51
to make it better for people. >> Yeah. Yeah. You've got a really good point. Like it's um there is so much
01:32:57
awareness, but the um the the suicide rates haven't changed. They stay the same. They go up, they go down a little
01:33:02
bit, but they're always up around that sort of 600 mark, eh? >> Yep. Haven't changed.
01:33:06
>> What What are your What are your thoughts or views on um like suicide reporting in New Zealand?
01:33:11
>> You know, it's always >> it's an interesting one. There are like
01:33:15
with so many things. There are studies that show that um suicide can be like a contagion. So that if you speak about
01:33:22
it, other people can take their lives. There are studies that will show that uh reporting it reduces um and you know uh
01:33:30
because people uh are more aware of it >> and so if I was actually in legislation
01:33:37
I wouldn't know which side to take but because I don't have to report to the
01:33:41
government I'm like we need to talk about it more >> like I mean suicide
01:33:47
as I said right at the start is like the very pointy end of the stick and The reality is that if we can change our
01:33:56
systems, then the suicide rate goes down, right? You don't It's why like um drug
01:34:04
rehab, drug rehabilitation barely works because you send them into this particular place where they uh have all
01:34:13
the support they want. They have all of the um all of the knowledge, all of the things, and they're like, I'm clean. and
01:34:19
then they go back out and they're still living with the same drug addicts and
01:34:23
same friends. And guess what? You're going to end up back in that, right? >> So until we change the actual
01:34:28
situational system of these people, >> the rate's not going to change.
01:34:34
>> And so like if you really wanted to fix it, universal basic income, there's no government brave enough to do
01:34:44
it in the world yet. There are there's a state in Canada that trial it in a in a
01:34:51
town for a while. Um you know basically giving everybody I don't what the numbers will be different now in let's
01:34:57
say you get $500 a week right there's um uh there's all sorts of ways to pay for
01:35:05
it. People will argue this. There's um there's if you look up uniboo basic
01:35:11
income, there's there's good structures for it. >> But basically cost of living
01:35:16
and the um the 80hour work week for these people working three jobs like so much of that contributes to people
01:35:25
taking their own lives >> when it's like everything is just too hard. There's no way out. You can't see
01:35:30
anything. You end up taking your life. Systems need to change before the suicide rate changes.
01:35:35
>> Yeah. Do do you think there's still stigma around talking about depression
01:35:38
or having therapy and stuff? >> Of course there is. >> You think so?
01:35:41
>> Yeah, 100%. Um, and like it depends like what you're in. Like I was talking to
01:35:50
uh uh what were they? Uh law firm the other day. or talking to people inside the law firm
01:35:59
about the law firm like you will get told that you're soft, you'll get demoted, you won't get promoted. Like
01:36:09
that's that's it's it's rough. Um, even even down to the fact that like on
01:36:17
social media, there's a really sort of interesting narrative between men and
01:36:23
women, the masculine, the feminine, and um, and dating and all of that sort of stuff about men being vulnerable and
01:36:31
women saying that they want it, but when men do it, then the woman use it against
01:36:35
them, you know? So, so, so like you know there's guys saying like >> the the one time that you open up as a
01:36:44
man to a woman, if she ever uses that against you, that's like that's the end
01:36:48
of it. He'll never open up ever again. >> And so, like, we've still got these
01:36:54
situations where it can be problematic for people to talk about this stuff because they might lose friends or jobs
01:37:01
or relationships or anything like that. And so there's there is still work to do
01:37:06
around compassion and empathy for people who aren't doing it, who aren't, you
01:37:10
know, who are going through things like that. >> Yeah, that's that's a good point. Yeah,
01:37:14
I lost a mate about 5 years ago through um he took his own life um uh because he
01:37:19
he suffered severe bipolar, but I had no [ __ ] idea. No one did. His wife knew his immediate family, but no one else
01:37:25
because he he was scared he was going to be um you judged at work. >> Do you know how much effort it is to
01:37:29
hide bipolar? Yeah, >> you imagine like how much internal effort is required to hide that from the
01:37:37
world. >> It is so so hard. And I don't have bipolar, but I have a friend with
01:37:43
bipolar and he came on my podcast the other day, literally about 4 days ago. And you know, like the the his his big
01:37:51
thing that he was talking about was don't fight the feelings. M >> and so with as someone with bipolar was
01:37:56
talking about as soon as he learned to to stop trying to hide it and put it all down and actually just feel the feelings
01:38:04
and then find good ways to to move through them, that's when his life got good.
01:38:08
>> Yeah. If you could change um like just one thing about how you know mental
01:38:14
health is approached in New Zealand, what would it be? I mean go go goes back to it goes back
01:38:22
to what I asked before like like mental health is the symptom and not the problem.
01:38:30
>> And so like if I could change one thing to improve the mental health, it would
01:38:34
be legislation. >> It it it would be um it would be things like anything that legislates towards
01:38:41
better cost of living, um better ability to just live. Like you think about people like, "Oh, back in my day, we
01:38:48
didn't have any of this [ __ ] No depression. No one was killing themselves." It's like, "Yeah, back in
01:38:53
your day a house cost five grand and you only had to work one job and your wife got to stay home and look after the
01:38:59
kids." >> Like genuinely the economics now are horrific for trying to live a quote
01:39:08
unquote normal life. And so until we can legislate that in some way and give incentives to moving a society to be
01:39:17
more equitable, to be more um like just move it just to be more care based, >> like to actually look at people and not
01:39:33
say they're bad because of this, they're bad because of this, but like actually
01:39:37
come together and connect in a that improves our GDP like like I'm not I'm
01:39:44
not some bleeding heart liberal like like a a economy is better when people are functioning better
01:39:53
>> like when I said 78% of people on the verge of burnout what do you think their
01:39:57
productivity is we have one of the lowest productivity rates in the OECD >> you know who has one of the highest
01:40:04
productivity rates France you know what people say about France lazy [ __ ] is >> right. Always don't start late, finish
01:40:14
early. They're at the cafes, they're smoking, they're drinking. What the [ __ ]
01:40:18
are they doing? >> You go look at their productivity score in the OECD, it's pretty much the
01:40:23
highest. So when they go to work, they actually work and they get stuff done and then they then they piss around
01:40:29
whenever the rest of the time >> and have a better better way of life. >> Yeah, they seem to have the right way
01:40:36
around. the French. They they definitely um like work to live. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:40:39
>> Yeah. >> Um what about you? What are your like um not non-negotiables in your in your
01:40:45
toolkit? I know you're a huge advocate for me um meditation. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm a huge advocate
01:40:53
for the ability to observe your thoughts without judgment. And so meditation is the main way that you can learn that
01:41:02
skill. There are obviously many mindfulness practices as well that you can you can do for that. Um that
01:41:10
the interesting thing about meditation is that it does not solve any of your problems.
01:41:15
>> Solves nothing. >> What it does is allows you to view them from a different perspective, understand
01:41:22
them and gain insights that allow you to make better choices. My second cornerstone is the ability to
01:41:29
regulate your nervous system. Pretty much most people like those 78% of people that are burning out have
01:41:37
disregulated nervous systems. Um we live in our sympathetic nervous system far too much
01:41:46
um in what modern science has called low-level sympathetic nervous system state. So sympathetic nervous system
01:41:51
what people usually refer to as fight or flight. >> Yeah. And lowlevel sympathetic nervous
01:41:57
system state means that um people aren't in that. You know, you usually understand when you're in fight or
01:42:03
flight, right? But if you're in low level, you might not actually be able to
01:42:07
viscerally see and understand that you're in fight or flight, but you're
01:42:11
still dumping the three main chemicals that you dump when you're in that state,
01:42:15
which is adrenaline, cortisol, and glucose. And these are leading like when you dump them for long periods of time,
01:42:21
it leads to heart disease, cardiovascular disease, um everything through to uh like diabetes, like all of
01:42:28
these things come because we're dumping glucose and and all of that sort of stuff. And if we stay in that state for
01:42:33
too long, then we have problems. Main way to get yourself uh out of sympathetic and parasympathetic is
01:42:42
learning how to breathe properly. I take my mouth every night, so I get at least eight hours of um nasal breathing.
01:42:51
When I walked the TA, I would guess that I spent 98% of that walk, no matter how
01:42:57
hard I was going, with my mouth closed. Nasal breathing. If you want to know any
01:43:02
of this stuff, read um Breath by James Nester. It's the best book on this um
01:43:07
easily. Um >> also, mutual friend of ours, Nigel Beach. It's worth following him on
01:43:11
Instagram. >> Yeah, go follow Nigel. Um, everyone loves Nigel. >> Nigel, lots of mates.
01:43:16
>> Nigel, lots of mates. Um, one of my best friends and one of the loveliest humans
01:43:21
and um, someone I've also learned a lot of. We we learn a lot off off each other, which is which is great. Um, and
01:43:28
so, and we talked about it earlier, which is something that's Nigel's specialty is is hot and cold therapy.
01:43:36
So, sauna and cold exposure. And the cold exposure being a a really really core component because
01:43:46
cold puts you into sympathetic nervous system state in the safest way possible. I've thought about other ways and I've
01:43:55
tried like if I want to get you into a fight or flight right now, I've pretty
01:43:59
much got to jump over this desk and try and attack you, right? That's really the
01:44:02
only way I'm going to get you into that state, >> right? not hugely useful, not a safe way to do
01:44:10
it, right? Whereas if we have a if we have a ice bath in here and we put you in there, you go
01:44:18
and that's putting you into the sympathetic nervous system state, right? So we can do it in a safe way. Then
01:44:25
you can practice through the breath through using the simplest form is shut your mouth so you're only nasal
01:44:31
breathing. uh best form is using the physiological sigh which is a long inhale through your nose and then jam as
01:44:38
much extra air up your nose as you can and then a long exhale through your mouth. So
01:44:50
once twice three times fastest way to move you into the parasympathetic state. But what it does is it teaches you
01:44:57
through the safety of cold that you increase the threshold of you ever going into that fight or flight state. It
01:45:06
makes you more unfuckwithable. >> It makes it harder for you to end up if someone cuts you off in traffic, if
01:45:13
someone says something dumb to you, if there's a little bit of stress at work.
01:45:17
Suddenly, because you know how to regulate your nervous system consciously, one, you've increased the threshold with
01:45:23
the cold exposure, but two, even if you do start feeling yourself in that state,
01:45:29
you can get yourself out. I was sitting on the beach in Mexico. I have this sign
01:45:35
that I have um I've done it for the last 10 years and it says um chat with me,
01:45:40
free advice, conversation, and listening. And I go sit all around the world in places and just sit and talk to
01:45:45
people. And I'm sitting there. I'm reading my book. I've got no one to talk
01:45:48
to at the moment. And this surfer goes past me and he looks and he goes, "No
01:45:54
one wants to [ __ ] talk to you." And I was like, >> and you know, when someone says
01:46:01
something like that, you go move straight into that sympathetic nervous system. And just even that one inhale
01:46:08
where I felt all of that adrenaline start coming out. I was aware enough to understand that state and go
01:46:17
and just started taking a couple of nasal breaths and he just kept walking and I looked over at him and I thought I
01:46:24
observed my thoughts. Right. My first thought is [ __ ] you. What a [ __ ] >> That's what I'm thinking. That's what I
01:46:30
would have said. >> Yeah. Like what are you to Yeah. And 15 years ago like I would have got up. I
01:46:35
would have said something. He would have said something and would be each other's
01:46:39
noses, you know, and it would have been a thing. >> I look at him and I think, how hurt must
01:46:47
he be to be saying that to someone who is just sitting on a beach offering free help,
01:46:53
>> trying to do good? >> Yeah. How hurt must he be? >> Yeah. >> And so I sat there and I sent him love.
01:46:59
I sent him love and I just like I hope whatever is hurting you dissipates please.
01:47:06
>> And then I just went back to doing what I was doing. >> I now use that as a teaching story.
01:47:14
Had I not been needing to use it as a teaching story, I would have forgotten about it within a short amount of time
01:47:20
>> and just let that go. Whereas a decade, 15 years ago, that would have haunted me for a week, a month,
01:47:31
>> just enraged every time you think about it. >> I just still would have been enraged
01:47:34
about that, right? But with the ability to regulate your nervous system and observe your thoughts, you can move your
01:47:39
way through those situations vastly easier. >> Yeah, I reckon that that's one thing um
01:47:44
my experience with depression probably gave me like more compassion. >> Yeah. Like if if someone's like that,
01:47:50
I'm like, "Fuck, that person's got some [ __ ] going on." Yeah.
01:47:52
>> Whereas in the past, I would have been like, "That motherfucker."
01:47:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. Um, what's your inner voice like these days? Is it mostly good?
01:48:02
>> Nah, I fight with my inner voice every single day. >> See, it's it's it's [ __ ] Dave. So, so
01:48:09
you've done you've done so much work, so much introspection. You you've got the
01:48:13
tool kit all sorted. You do all the right things, and yet you you still have periods where you have suicidal
01:48:17
thoughts. Yeah. So the suicidal thoughts were directly about last about last year
01:48:22
and about that time. So I don't have suicidal thoughts at the moment or anything, but like I fight every day
01:48:27
trying to not feel like a failure. Like I feel like a failure every single day. >> Yeah. Why?
01:48:33
>> Um because I'm twice divorced. Uh right now I'm living at my parents house. Um I
01:48:40
get on brilliantly well with my parents. I live downstairs in like an apartment type thing um with a view of the
01:48:47
mountain in Tonga. Um like it's a awesome place to be, but I still feel like a loser for being there, even
01:48:53
though I love getting to spend time with them since I haven't for so long. And
01:48:57
I'm literally just waiting until my house sells in Mexico. But my brain still says failure. Um yeah, because um
01:49:04
I don't have a partner. I feel like a failure because um I'm not as wealthy as
01:49:12
I thought I would be at this stage. Uh because even though like I'm selling a
01:49:18
house, I'm going to have money in the bank. Like still all of these thoughts,
01:49:22
>> you know, just end up in my head and like I know my brain doesn't shut off
01:49:29
because of my ADHD. I know that my head injuries do lead to um thoughts that I know are not mine, but that's also not
01:49:38
unique. Right? That's sort of one of the really best parts of that meditation, that observing
01:49:45
your thoughts is understanding that you are not your thoughts. >> Like your thoughts are just like some
01:49:51
crazy electrical impulses that are bouncing around through weird reasons. But when you can separate that, you
01:49:58
know, into what scientists call consciousness, you know, um, other people might call a soul, you know, when
01:50:05
your soul looks down and views that, you're like, "Stop talking shit." Like,
01:50:12
I think I'm fat. Like, I'm not right. Um, like there's this there's
01:50:20
just all of these things that consistently run through my brain. And I don't know if my brain is different to
01:50:24
anybody else's. I don't know if this is what other people feel like at home, but
01:50:30
this goes back to what we're talking about is that all I can do is tell these
01:50:33
stories of this is how I feel. >> And if you feel the same way, bro, you're not alone.
01:50:40
>> Like this is but this is what I do to deal with these thoughts every day.
01:50:45
>> Yeah. >> And so I have good days. Like I have a good life. My life is rad. I have good
01:50:50
friends. I do cool stuff. Like my life is awesome. But I still have these thoughts.
01:50:57
>> Well, I think everyone does. E, everyone's got [ __ ] >> Surely. Yeah,
01:51:00
>> surely. >> Um, what are your biggest flaws? >> H. Yeah, we got a while. Sweden.
01:51:12
Uh, I am self centered. Now, we are all self-centered. We're all the our self is the center of the universe
01:51:26
literally. Um, selfish is the definition of selfish is to put yourself first to the detriment
01:51:35
of others. And I am very self-centered as in like freedom is my um my number one thing.
01:51:45
And so I want to be able to go and do what I want when I want, you know, fly in, fly out, just, you know, have that
01:51:52
freedom. And occasionally it can unintentionally border on selfish. >> Um especially like with a partner
01:52:03
>> like I So I'm sitting here you ask me that question. I'm like what would Libby
01:52:07
say? >> Um and so yeah I can be selfish >> in that way. Um, I can be
01:52:15
um not thoughtful because I get so carried away in my ideas. >> Is that the ADHD?
01:52:25
>> Yeah, I I don't even know. I think so. I just get so carried away and I get and
01:52:30
it is ADHD, right? So, it's um that's the hyperfocus. Like I'll get caught up
01:52:35
in something and then just be like zoom in on that and everything else in my world disappears. And that could be
01:52:42
people, that can be responsibilities, that could be all sorts of things. And so I've really got to try and um make
01:52:50
sure I'm aware of that. There is a really really cool personality test that I'm going to shout out here. I've got no
01:52:58
affiliation with them and it's free, which is cool. But I came across it and
01:53:03
it's the one that's nailed me the best and it's for children. It's literally
01:53:08
for like six to 14 year olds. And it's based on the Yungian archetypes, the eight archetypes for
01:53:15
introverted, for extroverted. Um, but it's also um got MyersBriggs sort of stuff all under the base. So, it's all
01:53:22
properly done, but it basically tells you what your uh what animal you are. And so, there's introverted like there's
01:53:31
pandas, mir cats, um owls, otter, a whole bunch of things. I'm a parrot. I I process my emotions through talking.
01:53:44
I like freedom. I like to fly around. >> Um, and it's got all these being a
01:53:49
parrot's really cool for lots of reasons, but one of the best things and and and how it applies to your question
01:53:57
directly is instead of saying the strengths and the weaknesses to a child, >> they say the strengths and the
01:54:05
stretches. what is what is a stretch for you to do? What is out of your uh comfort zone? And
01:54:13
so those things are a stretch for me. Um and in my stretches, it's like you're a
01:54:20
[ __ ] mess. You're all over the show. You need to have It says stick with wise
01:54:25
friends. >> It says stick with pandas, mircats, and beavers. Three of my best friends are pandas. my
01:54:34
best best friend uh is a beaver and my ex-wife is a beaver. And so surrounding myself with those sorts of people who
01:54:44
can call me out on my [ __ ] point out what I need to work on, but really support me through that is a really
01:54:52
really powerful thing for me understanding what I am, which is what's called external awareness. Right? So you
01:54:58
have internal self-awareness and external self-awareness. And these are people who are what what are called in
01:55:05
psychology um a loving critic and to be a loving critic you have to have three things. You have to have a mutual level
01:55:12
of respect for each other. You have to have the best interest at heart and you have to be willing to tell them the
01:55:20
truth >> which you know quite often a partner might not be a loving critic because
01:55:26
they don't have that third thing. They're not willing to tell you the truth for fear of the consequences. And
01:55:30
so I'm lucky that I have a few loving critics in my life that can help point
01:55:34
out those stretches or weaknesses for me so I can observe them, work on them, and
01:55:40
and try and be better for it. >> Yeah. Do you think um Yeah. Would you want to get married again?
01:55:46
>> Yeah. [ __ ] it. >> My third wife has got to be the best one. >> Third time's a charm or something. Um,
01:55:52
no, but I I suppose it's Yeah, I'm I'm pleased that that's your answer because
01:55:56
it it does open yourself up to the up to the risk of feeling like more of a failure if it doesn't work.
01:56:00
>> Oh, yeah. Like 100%. Like I am I am a lover and not a fighter. Um uh despite having uh two marriages, if
01:56:11
you talk to my ex-wife Libby, she will tell you that I am a a really good human and a really good partner and husband.
01:56:18
And um like I you know, for the last year, I um definitely wasn't ready to date or or do anything
01:56:29
like that, but especially towards the end of last year, I processed so much and um sort of coming out into this
01:56:36
year, like I'm actually kind of ready to date now. >> So, please send in your applications,
01:56:40
ladies. Um I'm sure I sound awesome after all of this stuff. Um but but uh like yeah like I I absolutely
01:56:51
will be in a partnership again sometime because like I I will add value and and I definitely need to stick with wise
01:56:58
friends. So it'll probably be a panda or a mircat or a beaver that that I end up
01:57:03
with. >> Yeah. What about um future goals? Like where do you see yourself at 50 55?
01:57:08
Um, it's weird like you said, I am a I am a a rack tour. I'm all about I don't even
01:57:16
like I don't have a real job, you I mean I I I do all of my speaking. I'm an
01:57:21
author and a speaker I guess is my job, but it's not a real job. I just sort of
01:57:25
do things and um that makes it hard to really figure out who you are and what you're doing. And
01:57:33
so like I have only recently found a new idea that is going to really be a point of purpose for me. It's
01:57:49
outside of the mental health space, but it's also very mental health related.
01:57:53
Um, and it's um it's a business that I haven't like made made yet, but I'm
01:57:59
going to. Uh, I'm just putting some people together to do it. Uh, but it's
01:58:04
got a name. It's called Side Quests. And it's basically about helping people
01:58:08
experience life more by going out and doing cool and interesting things, small, big, gigantic.
01:58:15
And that's just kind of what I do and how I live my life. And because people
01:58:19
are forever asking me, well, how do you do cool [ __ ] all the time? I was like,
01:58:23
well, I choose to. And I identified sort of three of the problems that I see and
01:58:29
uh I have a way that I am going to overcome those for people and allow them to do more cool stuff. And it's like
01:58:38
that's just something that I could see myself doing for a long time cuz it would bring me such joy. the the
01:58:46
facilitation of joy in others is a major thing that that drives me and makes me happy. And I
01:58:58
do that through my mental health stuff, but I could also do that through a business as well. Like I will never ever
01:59:06
ever ever get sick of people coming up to me and going, "I read your newsletter. I read
01:59:15
your book. I heard you at a thing and then I did this and now my life is better because of it. Never will I get
01:59:21
sick of that. And every time like because I have these doubts consistently. This was a Libby thing and
01:59:30
she made me do it and it was really quite brilliant. There's two things. One, she said every time someone sends
01:59:37
you something nice, you have to put it in a spreadsheet and put a dollar value next to it. And so, how much is
01:59:44
somebody's life worth? Because I get people sending me stuff all the time. You saved my life. And so, I put that in
01:59:51
a spreadsheet and like we just >> It's priceless, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. It is priceless. Um, like
02:00:00
literally, and I don't mean to trivialize anyway, but I think I put like $5 million. Like, that's for me.
02:00:05
Like, I get $5 million for saving someone's life, right? >> And so, I started putting like imaginary
02:00:10
dollars. And so I just started putting these all in and and I stopped doing that. But what I continued to do was I
02:00:17
have a folder on my um on my computer that is nice things people have said. And so every time someone sends me an
02:00:26
email, I screenshot that like you helped me do this, you saved me from this, you
02:00:32
did this. And I put it in there and I [ __ ] bank it. like I bank it because it means so much to me and I could never
02:00:41
stop doing it because I get so much joy and satisfaction out of being able to make a small difference in what's going
02:00:49
on in this world. >> Oh, that's so gratifying. >> If your parents were sitting here now,
02:00:54
what three words would they use to describe you? >> Um, my mother would say painful.
02:01:02
>> What does that mean? Like like annoying. Yeah. Yeah. Like I've been the bane of
02:01:08
my mother's life since I was a child. Like frustrating maybe painful frustrating or something like that. Like
02:01:16
so my mother uh she is a beautiful and lovely woman but she is not like me and my entire life I have made her afraid
02:01:31
because I have been like jumping off cliffs like no like the one the one saving grace that she's always had is
02:01:40
that I don't drink and I've never drunk. So, like she's always like, "At least
02:01:44
he's making clear decisions." They'll be stupid decisions. Like the amount of
02:01:49
times that I came home like from the ED with a like a broken limb or something like that and she's just like,
02:01:56
"What is going on?" So, like exasperating. Maybe that's what we land
02:02:02
on. So, painful, exating, frustrating. I'm calling [ __ ] on that. If she was
02:02:06
if she was here, >> do you know what she would say if she was actually here? What? She would say
02:02:10
proud. >> Yeah. M yeah. >> Um and even that makes me tearary, right? Like she's proud of me because
02:02:17
she knows everything that I've been through, right? >> And so, and by the way, uh camera, I
02:02:26
don't give a [ __ ] that I cry because everybody should cry more. A thousand%
02:02:30
everybody should cry more. And I'm crying because my mother is proud of me. and uh she's proud of me because of
02:02:38
the ability to have things happen and then navigate my way through that. Some was slow trudgy navigation, some
02:02:49
was easily slipped through, but like she's proud that I turn up, right? That's the thing. I turn like I will
02:02:56
always turn up and I'll figure it out and I'll get it done. >> Yeah.
02:03:02
>> What about you? Are you proud of yourself? >> That's a harder one, eh? Like,
02:03:07
yeah, you you'd love to just go, "Yeah, absolutely. So proud of myself." Um, I
02:03:12
look back and I'm like, like, I have lived a remarkable life. Like, I've written down a lot of it.
02:03:19
I've had three documentaries made about it. I've done so much [ __ ] And I for I forget most of it. Like I
02:03:28
legitimately don't remember half it unless I use it as a story. Um this is head injury stuff too. It's like my
02:03:35
memor is a bit screwy. Um like unless I use it in a story and tell it over and over and over and over and over again I
02:03:42
forget it and people will remind me about stuff all the time. Oh [ __ ] really? That was great. Um
02:03:48
like I just really understand that there is only one life. >> Mhm. And you, this is this main quest
02:04:00
side quest stuff, right? You can choose whatever you want. And none, none is none is right and none is wrong. If you
02:04:07
want to choose a main quest of meeting someone and having three children and uh just working so that you can provide for
02:04:16
them and just having this life where you play sport with your mates or you know go hang out with what like if you want
02:04:23
to do that, live it. like live all of it and love it and be grateful for it and be proud of
02:04:29
it. >> My ex-wife and I had miscarriages. We wanted to have babies and it didn't work
02:04:36
out. >> And so I'm now 44 and will not have a child. Like technically I can.
02:04:45
Technically I can. But I've got to a place now where like because it didn't happen, I kind of feel
02:04:53
like that's that's the thing. And my life has now gone in a direction where
02:04:59
even though I'd be a good father, like that's not what's in store for me. And
02:05:04
so I actually feel a real sense of need to really go and live my life and and do as much as I can but not to an
02:05:21
extreme level. Just just contribute >> as as a man who is not held not held
02:05:29
back but has more free time than somebody with a family. And so like that's what the next 20
02:05:36
years are going to be for me is more of the same. Like more of going and doing stuff and trying to like my job is to
02:05:46
figure me out because like I said, I'm not special. And so if I figure me out a little bit,
02:05:54
I'm probably helping a whole bunch of other people figure themselves out and
02:05:58
shortening the journey for them to that space. And the more amount of journeys I
02:06:04
can shorten to epiphanies, the the the happier I'll be. >> Yeah. I found an old article from the um
02:06:12
Bay of Plenty Times in 2017 >> and your quote is depression is the best thing that's ever happened to me.
02:06:18
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Still still agree with that. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Um
02:06:24
again like you know you know icky guy the concept of icky guy. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Uh, so it's basically the
02:06:31
intersection of I'm trying to remember this right now. What the world needs,
02:06:37
>> what you're good at, um, what, uh, you can be paid for, and what you're passionate about, right? So,
02:06:46
there's lots of things you can be passionate about, the world ain't paying
02:06:49
you for. >> There's lots of things you can be passionate about, the world doesn't
02:06:52
need, right? And there's lots of things that um, will pay you, but you're not
02:06:56
passion and all of that. Right? So I am quite lucky that I have that depression stumbled me into my icky guy and icky
02:07:08
guy translates to reason for waking up in the morning. >> I work in this space cuz I am passionate
02:07:16
about it even when it paid me barely anything. >> But now that I'm pretty good in this
02:07:23
space, it pays me so I can make a living out of it. and the world needs it. And so
02:07:35
I am just really grateful, like immensely grateful that I've ended up really
02:07:46
through no fault of my own in this place. Um, and so I'm just going to keep riding that wave.
02:07:55
>> Yeah. Well, good on you. Hey, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
02:07:58
This has been great. >> So many so many lessons, so many takeaways. Um, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate
02:08:06
it and I can't wait to see what the future brings. >> Hopefully, it's um that most of it is
02:08:11
spend in that um 80 to 100. >> 100%. That's that's exactly where I want
02:08:15
to live. >> Yeah. Oh, you're a good man. Thanks so much.