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The fear of failure drives me more than the the vision of success. A >> seventime New Zealand rally champion,
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one world rally champion win, eight world rally champion podiums, more than 40 world rally champion stage victories,
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two European rally championships, 2011 production world rally champion. When you hear all that, how does that make
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you feel? >> The memory attached to every single one of those trophies is worth more than any
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money or paycheck or anything. >> What does success look like to you now compared to when you started? winning is
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everything I do is driven by winning to be fair. You put a helmet on, you go into like
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your own little bubble, your own little world and and every problem disappears and you just go into this complete flow
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state. >> I've got a card here called um Monte Carlo tragedy. Do you try and bury this
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chapter? >> I did. I did try and bury it, but then it obviously all come flooding back this
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year when we had to go back to Monte Carlo. What advice would you give uh to a kid in a small town somewhere in New
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Zealand with a massive and what seems like an unrealistic dream? This episode of the Domavvey podcast has been brought
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Aiden Pattern, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me along. >> How's the jet lag?
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>> Good in at the moment in the morning, but I don't know. I'll be asleep early this afternoon, I think. So, we're
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recording this on a Friday morning. Um, Monday morning, news came out that you finished third at this massive WRC
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event. >> Yeah. Podium in Croatia. Um, our second event of the year, pretty unexpected to
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be honest. Uh, we didn't even expect to be back in the WRC this year. So, to actually get a podium out of it, um, a
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real surprise. So, uh, quite a pinch yourself moment really in terms of the full circle journey that we've been on
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over the last 8 years since we're last in the WRC. So, pretty cool, but it was a hard one to also enjoy because our
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teammate at the time crashed out on the last stage, which is what elevated to a podium. So, it wasn't really one you
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could celebrate when the team was uh, shall we say, not in the best spirits after the rally.
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>> So, just like a quiet fist pump uh to yourself. >> Uh, you had to keep your emotions pretty
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in check for sure. Uh, because you know, first and foremost, the team, you know,
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if they win, then the whole team win. So, uh, pretty gutted that they didn't get it to be honest. But, nevertheless,
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it was something cool you look back on in the future and the statistics will say you got a podium. So that's cool.
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>> So you had this long flight home from Croatia. Have you just been like walking
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on air all week after this? >> Oh, yes and no. It's I'm not really one to get tied up in results and and past
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achievements to be honest cuz I'm always looking forward. So I must must say I'm
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already thinking about the next rally um which for us is in about 5 weeks time. So the focus is forward and it's about
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okay what do we learn from that weekend? How do you how do you I guess improve and become better and um I'm not really
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one to celebrate or uh didn't have any beers or didn't go out or anything. It was just um I guess that little that
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little feeling of inner self-accomplishment and move on I guess. >> So you don't get too high on the on the
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successes. Do you get down on the on the fails? >> Definitely get down on the fails.
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>> That's not fair. You can't have it one way and not the other. >> I know I'm probably a little bit out of
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kilter in that sense. I've always been I think that um the the fear of failure drives me more than than the the vision
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of success. And I guess that fear of failure is what's always driven me to keep going further and faster. So yeah,
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I'm not really one to sit around and jump up and down and celebrate. And even when we won our WC rally in Argentina in
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2016, it was probably one regret, but we didn't actually go out and do a big party. And in South America, they go
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nuts with the parties and we didn't actually go out and enjoy it. So if I was to go back in time, I'd probably
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readress that one. But uh nevertheless, it's always ice forward. >> One thing I just noticed, you're a
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nailbiter. >> Oh, thanks. >> Yeah. What is that? Is that Is that like um is it a concentration thing? Is it a
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nerves thing? An anxiety thing? A stress thing? What is it? >> It's a bad habit thing. No, I don't know
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what it is. Oh, now I'm going to be conscious about it. >> Oh, no, no, no. I I tend to No judgment.
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I I tend to bite mine, but I I don't bite them until they bleed in the corners or anything, but I I sort of do
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it if I'm concentrating. >> The girlfriends never like it, do they? So I think it's a nervous thing but you
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subconsciously do it as well. So >> you need to get that what do you call it the stuff you paint on either stop you
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doing it you get that as a kid it doesn't work >> once once it's off then you're just back
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to biting >> so Hayden pattern uh widely considered the goat the greatest of all time this
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is according to AI by the way would would you dispute that? >> Uh I'm not really one for those sort of
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labels or anything. So >> well let's run through some of these achievements. uh seventime New Zealand
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rally champion uh one world rally champion uh champion win eight uh world rally champion podiums more than 40
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world rally champion stage victories two European rally championships 2011 production world rally champion I don't
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know what that means but it sounds impressive uh first person in the southern hemisphere to ever win a world
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rally championship and Hellburg Sports nominations in 2012 2016 when you hear all that how does that
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make you feel >> uh there's more to achieve So really just getting started. Um yeah,
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look we're so lucky to do what we've done and to achieve what we've achieved coming from a small town in Jine and
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many times when I was young getting told that you can't go to the World Championship and it hasn't been done
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before and and just the fact that it is such a European dominated sport that not
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really anyone from the southern hemisphere has gone up and done what we've did. Um but I'm also not one to
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shout to the roof roof about it. I'm more one to let the results do the talking and the accolades and whatnot
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and and I just go about doing my thing. And at the end of the day, I love doing what I do. I get to drive race cars. You
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put a helmet on, you go into like your own little bubble, your own little world and and every problem disappears and you
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just go into this complete flow state. That's what I love. And I'm just, I guess, a bit of an adrenaline junkie
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when it comes to to some of that. >> How old are you now? >> Too old. 38 now. >> 38.
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>> Yeah. The years go by too quick. How how long can you remain at your peak in the
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sport? >> Well, that's a very good question cuz um I don't know. I I didn't expect to be
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back at the top tier now. Um because there's no hide on spring chicken like I was. Uh but in saying that, people like
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I'm not sure if you heard of someone like Sebastian Lo, he's ninetime world champion. He was winning his last
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rallies when he was still 48. So based on that, I've still got some time. Um rally is a little bit different to
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Formula 1 because rallies are all about experience and seat time. you know, we can't rely on simulators and and you
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know, the physical demands are maybe not as much as Formula 1. So therefore, the
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the longevity of a rally driver is probably greater than a Formula 1 driver. Um, but at the end of the day,
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if I'm not winning, then I'm not going to enjoy it. So, it it probably depends on how how long you can stay competitive
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for. >> Are you are you fearful or scared of the the void it's going to leave when you
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eventually stop driving? >> Oh, yes and no. I think the sport is my life. So I think regardless, I'll always
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be involved in the sport. I think the next phase for me is is running a team, which is what we're doing on in a small
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scale here in New Zealand. We're starting to put the building blocks in place. So
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>> I'd love to be leading the team. And so I think when driving doesn't, you know,
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when it driving stops, then I'll still be involved in in the sport and and whatnot. Um I think in a in a hobbyist
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way, you'll always probably still be driving. People like Brian Green's a legend in New Zealand rally. He's been
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50 plus years. He's in his I think 70s now. Um so you can rally forever, but it's just at what level. Um so I think
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I'll always be involved in the sport cuz I've I've dug my hole pretty deep now. >> That's all you know.
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>> I know. >> You put all your eggs in one basket. >> There's no coming back from this now.
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>> Um what does your year look like these days? >> So you've just come back. We established
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you've just come back from Croatia. You're back home for how long? >> Uh home for two weeks and then we head
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back to Europe for a test which is literally two days in Europe and then come back again. Back for a week and
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then we go to Japan for our next WRC rally. Um, this year's a little bit sort of fragmented because we're not doing a
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full program in the WRC and we're also not doing a full program in New Zealand, Australia. So, we're sort of
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cherry-picking of what we can do with what doesn't clash cuz ultimately the main commitment is this new opportunity
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we got with Hyundai in the World Rally Championship. And so, we're building everything else around that. So, it is a
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very messy year, shall we say? Um, but it is towards the future now because there's big opportunities in our sport
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come 2027 with a new uh rule change, a new regulation set. Um, so we're just trying to put ourselves in the right
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place at the moment and do the best job we've got with what we got. >> Why Why did you come home? Why did you
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come all the way home when it's just for a couple of weeks? Why don't you just stay over there? Be so much easier,
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wouldn't it? >> I get bored. So, well, it's interesting because um when I was full-time at the
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World Championship through 2014 to 2018, I was living in Germany for 5 years. Hated it. Absolutely hated it. And and
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that's a part that a lot of people don't realize is that for everyone else in the
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World Championship, you know, over there was their home. So when they'd finished
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a rally, they'd go back to Belgium or Italy. They'd have their normal surroundings, their normal culture. If
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they had a good or bad rally, they had a reset. Um, and yeah, it's busy periods over there. But for us, we were living
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in Germany for 5 years. You had nothing between rallies. You just go home, train, and you literally wait for the
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next rally. You had no family, no surroundings, no culture. And it got to a point where I didn't enjoy that
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anymore. So I always said, even before we got cut um with the politics, that I'd much rather live in New Zealand. I'd
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rather live in New Zealand and fly back and forth cuz I can come back. I got our
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own business here with our own team. You can keep yourself busy. I love keeping myself busy. I don't sit around doing
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nothing. Um, and just fly back and forth. And you know, the more you fly, it's not actually that far. Like the
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Europeans will go 36 hours on a plane or whatever it is and go, if you fall asleep, it's not actually a problem.
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It's like magic. You just wake up at the other end and and you're at your destination. So, um, so I prefer to
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travel back and forth. Now, >> are you economy, premium economy, business? >> It depends. Uh, we fly business where we
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can when we go into a rally cuz you want to try and be fresh. Uh when we're returning from rallies, we're often
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being premium economy, but it depends on points as well. I do a lot of my upgrades on points. So um we have to
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fund a lot of our own travel. So business as much as you'd like to be there, it's a bit expensive as well. And
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we don't really get paid at our sport. So you try and make all your dollars go as far as you can.
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>> Yeah. What are the nuts and bolts of it? Like how does how does it how much does
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it cost for you to say fund yourself for a year? >> How does it work? >> Rallying's not cheap or any motorsport's
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not cheap. Um, I'd say in the 20 years that I've been doing the sport semi-professionally, I've been paid for
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maybe three of them. Um, which is not what people see on the outside. Um, people think you're on big bucks and
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whatnot, which is certainly not the case. Um, we're fortunate this year that the rallying's not costing us. So,
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that's it's a big opportunity for us. But the European Championship that we did a couple years ago, um, that was
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costing us the best part of about 1 to one a half million a year. Um, and that wasn't fully funding it. That was just
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funding our proportion of it. Um then here in New Zealand we're obviously funding our own teams and through the
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support categories when we did the support categories of the world championship when I was younger. Um we
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had to selfund that. I think we had to fund about $4 million over 3 years. Um so is always generally in the seven
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figures and you're funding it privately through sponsors through our business. Um that's probably the biggest role of
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what I do is actually try and is get the the funding in. Um, and when you've been
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doing that for 20 years, it it becomes a little bit um of a task. And it's certainly in this current day and age,
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it's getting harder and harder. But, um, hey, it's what makes it rewarding as well, that if you get it over the line
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and you get to the start line because you got the fun and then you achieve the result, it makes the whole work hard
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work and proh process of it worthwhile. So, so the the driving in the car bit the fun bit, what percentage is that of
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um of the whole >> very little uh say >> 10% 5 10% over the year. So you think each rally is what 3 hours of competing?
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You might do 10 12 rallies a year. So it's it's not a lot really in the grand scheme of it.
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>> So >> So you got back from uh Croatia this week after that um third place in the
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WRC. Anyone at the airport? >> No, no, no. What what's the biggest airport homecoming you've had?
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>> To be fair, when we won Argentina in 2016, uh we come home, it was 5:00 in the morning. Um
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and there was probably 100 odd people turned up at the airport and the Hyundai New Zealand representatives, they did
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this big haka in the international terminal. Um that was pretty cool. Um which is is funny as well because I'm a
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massively introverted person. So I'm sitting there like appreciating it with goosebumps, but in the back of my head I
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also want to hide in the back corner because there's too many people looking at you. So um so that was definitely
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pretty cool. >> Yeah, that's so gratifying. Eh, it's humbling. >> Oh, it's hugely humbling and it makes
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you realize what you're doing is more than just about yourself is there's so many people along the journey and people
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enjoying the highs and lows with you and uh also puts the pressure on as well because you know there is you know lots
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of people who are relying on you to to deliver a result but um that's pretty cool.
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What does success look like to you now compared to when you started >> or is it exactly the same just trying to
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win? >> Is it winning? Is everything I do is driven by winning to be fair. Um it is
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the greatest measure of success of your preparation of your surroundings of your
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team of your people um of your own commitment to a of a project is is all you know driven by the result that you
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achieve at the end of it. And if you win then you can say you've ticked all the boxes. So,
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as shallow as it may sound, yeah, I'd say winning is probably still the greatest measure of success for me. Um,
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and I guess feeling proud of it is I think trying to be proud of it and stay in the moment is bigger for me now than
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what it was when I was younger. I was always too driven and and too quickly moving ahead to the next thing. Um, I am
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even though what I said at the start, I am trying to enjoy the little moments a little bit more as as you go through go
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through it now because you know um life happens too fast and they only happen once. Also at 38 like you you don't know
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you you don't know when's going to be the last win, you know, or you just don't know, do you?
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>> Well, hopefully there's a few more years in it, but yeah, it's um the time goes
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way too fast. I remember vividly actually when I was 12 years old on a party bus um going to my dad's 40th
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party and I remember and I don't remember a lot of things from a kid, but I remember vividly thinking you're so
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old and here I am now two years away from it thinking, Jesus Christ, where did the time go?
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Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into your childhood. Um, even though you just said then you don't remember much
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of it. Thankfully, I've done some research so maybe I can remember more than me.
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>> Um, yeah, your hero as a kid, Pawsome Vaughn. Rest in peace. >> You got to meet him.
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>> Uh, got a couple autographs from him. Um, I was quite young when he was at his
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um doing a lot of his rallying here. But yeah, Pawsome was a massive inspiration
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as was Colin McCrae. Um, a big inspiration and and my dad was was a big factor. They were always the three
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people I looked up to in the sport. And Pawson was obviously huge in rallying in
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New Zealand and and sadly missed. You know, obviously taken way too early and and did a lot for our sport. And for me,
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Possum was not just about what he achieved on the track. It was more for me what he was the person was away from
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the track. Like always happy. Didn't matter whether he had a good or bad day, he was always smiling, always saw the
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glass half full. And as a 12-year-old kid, you know, that's something I, you know, looked up to. So,
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>> yeah. Is that something you've taken, if you, if you'd say you've taken anything
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from Pawsome Bourne's career into your own, what would it be? Would it be that? >> Probably loyalty is probably the biggest
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thing. Um, and when I say loyalty, it's around the partnerships that we build with our partners. Um, you know, the
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corporate world can be very cutthroat, as can the professional sport world. And when we first sat down with Hyundai New
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Zealand back in 2014, 2013, one of the first things I said to him is, I want to build a relationship the same as I
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possibly have with Subaru because that's what I looked up to. That's what I aspired to. And 12 years later, we're
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still with the same brand. it's probably cut us off at the ankles a couple times
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by trying to be so loyal in terms of overseas and the opportunities that it maybe um did or didn't create. Um but
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that loyalty to a brand and to our sponsors and everything means so much to me. Um and that's probably come from the
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possum. I'm probably not as happy and cheery as possum which is probably my natural personality. Um
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>> are you not? We've been going like quarter of an hour now. You seem like a you seem like a happy happy easy
00:16:10
golucky. >> I keep to myself. I like I like I'm the as I say the back of the classroom in
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the corner person. Um our sport means you got to be a little bit extroverted but definitely split personalities for
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the sport. >> You do what you got to do to represent but personally I'm a massive introvert.
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If I had to disappear off the face of the earth and just go live alone and on a beach somewhere on the west coast and
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just completely away from everything. I'd be quite happy with that. >> So I I can see now um a sport where you
00:16:36
know your face is covered with a helmet on. It's it suits you. >> Exactly. You can hide. You get in the
00:16:40
car you block the whole world out. No one can see you. >> Right. Let's go um all the way back to
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this uh the missing years, the childhood that you that you don't remember much about. So, you're born in 1987. Uh your
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dad was a rally driver. What are your what are your earliest memories? >> Uh earliest memories, one memories, uh I
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remember dad was a farm contractor, so he'd go out and work on farms at night and take me along um in the in the car
00:17:04
and I'd sit in the car and all hours of night with a bottle of Coke and a bag of
00:17:07
chips while he'd be out working. And I remember one particular time, I think I was about 6 or 7, and he'd go away to
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the silage pit, empty this the tractor wagon and come back. But then one particular time, it was after midnight.
00:17:19
Um, he was taking a long time. I don't know what the time frame was cuz, you know, time p perception is a little bit
00:17:24
different when you're younger. But anyway, it was taking a long time and the the lights of the tractor weren't
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coming back over the hill. So, I was getting a bit scared in the middle of the night in the paddock in the dark.
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So, I took matters into my own hand. The keys were in the car, got in the car, knew how to drive cuz I used to drive
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the car around the farm. got in, drove down the road, but I didn't have any perception of speed um or speed limit,
00:17:42
so I just had foot flat. Anyway, I was hooing down the road and I remember going very fast. Um anyway, then I saw
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the the lights of the tractor come back over the hill and so I panicked. So I was like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm in I'm in
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trouble here." So turned around, went back, um put the car back in the paddic and then dad comes back and I'm in the
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car in tears and balling my eyes out and whatnot cuz I just thought I'm in trouble. I've been caught and whatnot.
00:18:02
Um, so I got a bit of a talent off, but late it was not until later years that I
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found out the dad was actually quite proud because I was about seven. Um, but he reckons where I was doing about 180
00:18:13
down this back farm road in the in the Toyota Camry, the family wagon. Um, and I do remember that. So, yeah. Um,
00:18:19
there's a few memories like that. And go-kart racing. I used to remember obviously a lot of go-kart racing. Used
00:18:24
to put the go-kart in the back of the of the car with the boot still half open and go along to race meetings. And that
00:18:29
was how dad and I spent most weekends going away racing. So >> that Camry story. How were you even able
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to touch the pedals? >> The seat went a long way forward. >> I may not have been able to see out the
00:18:38
steering wheel, but I can get to the pedals. >> It's like um there's um some footage
00:18:42
online of um Scott Dixon crashing out in one of his first races and he's got like
00:18:46
a cushion uh like taped to his bum >> or you put blocks on the bottom of your feet, one or the other. But uh
00:18:52
>> but no, that was the beauty growing up on a farm cuz I was driving around the
00:18:54
farm when you're like two or three. Started go-karting when I was six. So I knew how to drive. I just didn't really
00:18:59
know the the implications of safety or road rules or anything like that. >> I heard heard a story about you. I don't
00:19:05
know if this is um true or just yeah like one of those urban myths that's gathered a bit of momentum over time,
00:19:10
but did you used to like um tip pop plants out inside and then have like matchbox cars and used to like turn the
00:19:16
pot plant dirt into rally tracks? >> Yeah. To my parents discuss. Yeah. Used to turn the pop plants into the carpet
00:19:21
and make rally cars and noises and I used to watch rally videos all the time. So never any cartoons or anything.
00:19:27
That's why Colin McCrae was such an idol cuz um we had the VHS tape and I used to
00:19:31
watch the 95 world championship on on repeat all the time when I was sort of 8 n years old. Um so yeah, that's what I
00:19:38
remember watching that stuff all the time. >> I've um read a few interviews with you
00:19:42
and I've heard a few podcasts this week. Um I've heard you talk about your dad quite extensively, but not so much about
00:19:47
your mom. Did they did they break up at >> Uh yeah, mom and dad separated when I
00:19:51
was I think maybe 10 or 11 years old. um which I guess made childhood a little bit tough to be completely free fair. So
00:19:59
um it wasn't ex exactly a a nice separation and then there was a lot of custody fights and then you know you get
00:20:06
split between towns and shared custody arrangements and um it just made life pretty messy. Um but yeah so that made
00:20:13
things a bit tough for everyone involved in those sort of teenage years. >> That they're all good now. Your mom and
00:20:18
dad, they're both good as individuals. >> Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously I
00:20:22
still have a lot to do with dad. Um obviously keep in touch with mom. Um you know but you know my life everything was
00:20:27
dad's been a big part of it. He's been a massive supporter. Um still is to this day and this journey you know we sort of
00:20:33
lived and breathed it together. Um yeah it's a pretty tight relationship in that
00:20:37
in that respect I guess. >> What what um what impact did that have on you? Your parents building up at that
00:20:42
age. >> Uh you had to grow up very fast. Um uh it wasn't easy the situation. um you
00:20:50
know I wanted to spend more time with dad and in the end with you know the way the custody battles and everything went
00:20:56
I got two weekends a month with him. um my mom shifted to another town to purposely move me further away from my
00:21:03
father and away from my motorsport and away from my passion and I guess that put up a bit of a wall if you like and
00:21:08
then um yeah things just got tough because I mean like I sort of had to look after myself had to fend for myself
00:21:14
and so you know from a eating perspective you weren't getting cooked meals you had chocolate biscuits in the
00:21:20
cupboard um pies you just look after yourself so then all of a sudden you're 120 kilo 13 14y old kid going to new
00:21:27
schools cuz you're getting shifted to new schools. So then you got no friends and then you're the
00:21:31
>> you're the kid getting picked on as the the big fat one if you like. So um it
00:21:35
just made life just hard. Just made it hard. And then you know as an only child you're just trying to keep everyone
00:21:40
happy, trying to keep your dad happy, trying to keep your mom happy, >> trying to say the right things to the
00:21:45
right people. And um so it was definitely a management phase until I got well my release was when I actually
00:21:50
got a driver's license once I was 15 16 had a driver's license and I had a bit of freedom. Um that was I guess my
00:21:55
release of that part of life. >> It's a massive burden for a kid. Eh. >> Yeah. But I think there's a
00:22:01
unfortunately there's a lot of kids that go through it. You hear of a lot of bullying. You hear of a lot of family um
00:22:06
difficulties. >> For me I as I say I don't regret it because in in some forms it made me grow
00:22:12
up very fast. I had to become very mature. I had to be very aware of the situations around me. Um and it made
00:22:18
motorsport so much more to me than just a sport because it was my it was the only thing I live for. That was the only
00:22:23
thing I enjoyed doing was to go racing. Um, I hated school, hated the family life. Um, had no friends or virtually no
00:22:30
friends. The only thing I look forward to do was going racing in my car. And it got to a point where, you know, on the
00:22:35
shed week on the custody weekends, if it wasn't dad's custody, I remember one particular weekend I really wanted to go
00:22:41
racing in Ash Burton, but dad couldn't take me because it was outside the custody agreements and he didn't want to
00:22:45
get involved in legal elements because then he might just lose all the custody. It was it was pretty ugly. Um but anyway
00:22:50
I organized for my granddad to take me but they couldn't come to Timuru where I was to pick me up and and my car and
00:22:56
everything was in Gealdine which was 45ks away normally half an hour drive. So the only way I get there is I had to
00:23:01
get on a bike. So as a 13year-old and I remember sitting at the table thinking I
00:23:06
know all about nutrition as a 120 kilo 13-year-old having like eight wheat bicks with like heaps sorry with with
00:23:13
heaps of sugar on the wheat bicks thinking I need energy to ride there. It took me something like two and a half
00:23:18
hours. I got to jerine, got on the got in with granddad and we went away and went racing and I was that committed and
00:23:24
I was as say for a big boy to go on a bike to ride 45ks wasn't an easy task, but I just wanted
00:23:32
to go racing. So, >> it's a lot of pressure on those spokes as well. >> I I used to in in um in my bigger days,
00:23:37
I used to do a bit of road cycling and you'd hear the the Yeah. the the the spokes on the bike cracking away. Yeah.
00:23:43
>> How did What do you What's your weight now? 80 nowadays 80 80 is sort of the race
00:23:48
rate that you try and be at. So um when when you left school then dropped a bit of weight and obviously um you know
00:23:55
being in this sport you can't be too heavy so over time you sort of >> but your weight's always been a massive
00:24:00
thing for me so um never been easy >> cuz 120 kilos at 16 I'm guessing you're shorter than what you are now um and and
00:24:07
like 40 kilos heavier that's um that's a that's a lot of weight. >> Yep. Big boy. So, um, but yeah, which
00:24:14
paints a target on your back in some respects. >> Yeah. Is that what the bullying was at
00:24:17
school? Was it just Yeah, fat shaming? >> Uh, yeah, I think a lot of it. I tried
00:24:21
to, I guess, um, offset offset it by trying to be tough and I guess you come across a bit like the smartass and you
00:24:28
were trying to make it seem like it was like water off a duck's back. So, there's an element where you probably
00:24:33
fed it to some respect, but um, yeah, it wasn't something easy. And uh as I say,
00:24:39
you the lonesome one. And I actually remember to a point where I was 14 and I think I had the first newspaper article
00:24:46
about me racing my Mini and it came out that day in the the Courier paper at the
00:24:50
time. And I remember being so ashamed about it and thinking so embarrassed and that it was going to be another tool for
00:24:55
people to pick on me. So as I walked to um school that morning, I remember picking the newspapers that I don't know
00:25:01
why cuz it was only one street. I don't know why I thought it was a good idea. I
00:25:03
was picking all the newspapers out of people's letter boxes to throw them away so that people around our school
00:25:08
wouldn't see them. I was that ashamed about people seeing me racing the car because I just knew it was going to be
00:25:12
something else that you were going to get teased about. >> Why that that's you were in the news for
00:25:17
something good. >> Is it just like a tall poppy thing? >> We all know how cruel teenagers can be
00:25:21
though. So um ah it was just I guess when you're a teenager as well, you don't think necessarily logically. So um
00:25:28
yeah, it was just one of those things. >> Mate, that sounds like a miserable period.
00:25:33
It wasn't easy, but as I say, my rescue was was racing. As simple as that. So, that's why motorsport is such a big
00:25:40
thing for me and um always has been, always will be. Um it probably saved me, probably kept me alive. It probably kept
00:25:46
me on the straight and narrow. Um because without it, I don't know what I would have done. I would have very
00:25:51
quickly turned very ugly, very badly. Would have been in a hole somewhere or lived on the side of a street or
00:25:57
whatnot. Um certainly wouldn't have been as motivated or driven as what I am without without that sport. In
00:26:02
hindsight, looking back now from the perspective of a 38-y old man, yeah. Do you think you were definitely depressed
00:26:06
at the time? Oh, >> 100%. Definitely. Um, but as a teenager, you wouldn't know any different. That
00:26:11
was just that was just life. Um, it was the surroundings that you had around you. So,
00:26:15
>> you made good of what you had. And, um, obviously on dad's side, he was always
00:26:18
very positive and he he knew things weren't so easy. So, he's always trying to help me as much as he could. So, um,
00:26:24
yeah, forever grateful the people who were close to me and tried to help me. and um um yeah got me back on the
00:26:29
straight and narrow once I was sort of 17 18 19 and and uh I guess the rest is history.
00:26:36
>> It's it's it's very clear like the uh the deep um relationship and the the love you have with your with your dad.
00:26:41
Um there's a bit you put in your book about stealing money from him to buy food.
00:26:47
>> Yeah, that's how how bad it got as a teenager because I mean life life wasn't
00:26:51
great. Um, you know, once I got a driver's license, as I say, my release was going away in a
00:26:57
car and driving. But then I I had to fund it and, you know, you just went down this very deep slippery hole of
00:27:03
then, you know, then all of a sudden I started pinching money from the person I love the most, which and then in the end
00:27:09
I just I I was even though I didn't have a a close relationship with my mother at
00:27:13
the time, but I was also pushing away my father. I was pushing away anyone who was actually close to me. Um, so yeah,
00:27:18
the relationship become very very strained and as a teenager I guess with all the emotions and everything that's
00:27:23
going on at that age, you know, just everything blew up and got to a point actually where I actually um went went
00:27:29
away and lived with um one of dad's friends for 6 months. So at a point there I wasn't with any parent for 6
00:27:34
months and was out and you know when you look back on my dad was just trying to do everything he could to help me cuz I
00:27:40
was off the rails as a teenager and had no direction and I was doing everything bad and everything to I guess make my
00:27:46
life difficult. So, um, yeah, in the end it come right, but not through a lot of
00:27:50
work by a lot of people. >> Yeah. When you look back now, why why was that? Why do you think you were
00:27:54
pushing everyone away? >> It's a good question. Uh, no idea. I I think you just felt
00:28:02
maybe life wasn't worth it. I mean, like there wasn't much good going on. Um, yeah. Different nowadays, though,
00:28:10
because back in those days, at least you didn't have social media and things to compare yourself to others. So you
00:28:15
didn't really know what was normal or abnormal. So you're just sort of stuck in your own world. I think nowadays it's
00:28:20
so much harder for young people because you compare yourself to what you see online and and what other people do or
00:28:25
don't have, good or bad. Um so it was very different back then preocial media to what it is now. Um, I think it I just
00:28:32
needed some direction and once I got out of school and all of a sudden you surrounded yourself with people who
00:28:36
respected you and gave you time and wanted to help you and everything rather than being around people who are always
00:28:41
picking on you and bullying you and trying to find the worst in you, then it was all about your surroundings and and
00:28:46
that's I guess what got me out of the hole. >> Yeah. I I think a lot of people um in
00:28:51
their teenage years would go through something like that. Maybe not as severe as what you did, but um yeah, it's such
00:28:56
a nice feeling when you find your tri when you become like a young adult and you find your tribe, you find your
00:29:00
community, you find your people. >> Oh, definitely. It's um just natural progression in life. And you know, just
00:29:05
with my upbringing, I wasn't able to really build relationships with friends and have that friend group all the way
00:29:10
through. >> Um so that was probably the one thing I lacked. Um but in saying that, that's
00:29:14
also what gave me the opportunities to do what I do and to go out and to be independent and to push myself and
00:29:20
>> I guess focus on my own little world. your um your self-confidence and self-esteem. I'm guessing that was sort
00:29:27
of like rock rock bottom for you. How how is it now? >> Uh there's probably definitely a bit of
00:29:33
a a flood over from being a kid. I'm not the most confident person. Um >> it's interesting, eh? No, from an
00:29:39
outsider's perspective. No one would >> no one would assume that. >> Yeah. Well, you're pretty good at at
00:29:45
disguising it, I guess. Um I'm definitely always very anxious. Um, but I use it as a positive nowadays and in
00:29:52
respect that I I trust myself and I use those nerves as a as a positive to I guess amp yourself up and and make sure
00:29:58
you're you're motivated and driven and and focus on what you got to do. >> But never overly confident. Um, even to
00:30:05
this day, you know, if you turn up to an event and you're, for example, odds on to be the favorite and you're going to
00:30:11
walk away with it. Me personally, I'm not odds on favorite in my head. And but to be honest, I haven't tried to fight
00:30:17
that because that's what drives me to go, you know, I need to keep working. I need to work hard. I need to back
00:30:22
myself. I need to improve myself because otherwise if I if I rest on my laurels too much, then I feel like I'm going to
00:30:27
relax and and slip up. So So no, I'm not a super confident person. Um that's why,
00:30:32
you know, put helmet on and at the end of it, the result at the end almost something that's a relief for me rather
00:30:37
than something worth celebrating. It's something that I'm relieved that I achieved it and proud of myself for
00:30:41
achieving and then move on. >> Yeah. You mentioned you're anxious just a second ago. That's the nailbiting
00:30:46
brother. >> Yeah, exactly. We just got to the bottom of it. >> Have you ever had a sports psych?
00:30:51
>> I tried it. >> Yeah. >> Not for me. >> No. >> No. Um different strokes to different
00:30:55
folks, I guess, but uh no, not for me. Um >> as I say, the the sport psychology side
00:31:00
is more about positive thinking and positive affirmation and um a little bit I did a little bit with Gilbert Anuka.
00:31:06
The blue red mind thing was actually quite quite interesting and I found that quite beneficial. Um, but the whole
00:31:12
positive thinking and and pos positive visualization didn't work for me. It was more about, as I say, my fear of failure
00:31:18
is what's driven me more than than wanting to succeed. Um, so and you got to you got to lean into the things that
00:31:24
work for you. And for me, that's what works for me. That's what that's what makes me work hard. Um, so I've just I
00:31:30
guess embrace that if you like, and seen it as a positive rather than a negative.
00:31:33
>> Well, yeah. I suppose having a good um understanding of yourself is helpful. For anyone that's not familiar with
00:31:39
Gilbert's um blue head, redhead thing. Yeah. How how would you explain that? >> Uh well, it's basically positive and
00:31:44
negative thinking really. You're just trying to put yourself in the blue zone. Um which is positive thinking. Um
00:31:49
positive actions. Um you're you're thinking about the end result, but you're also not trying to get too far
00:31:54
ahead of yourself. You're trying to stay in the moment. So, I mean, like, you know, staying in the moment could be as
00:31:58
I'm sitting on the rally car on the stage, I'll start twiddling my my fingers or my thumbs or my toes just to
00:32:03
go, "Okay, I'm right here right now." Not letting your mind getting too far ahead of yourself. And that was all
00:32:07
about the blue mind. And obviously the red's all about the negative, you know, trying to block the red stuff out.
00:32:12
Starting, you know, self-doubt. Um, starting to worry about what the car may or may not do. Starting to worry about
00:32:16
your competitors that you can't control or manage. It was all about staying in your lane and focusing on the things
00:32:22
that were controllable, I guess. >> Yeah. And what about your inner voice? What's that like? Do you speak quite
00:32:28
kindly to yourself? >> I don't think I have much of an inner voice to be fair. He doesn't he doesn't
00:32:33
speak very much to be honest. Maybe I need to never talk to him. >> Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Oh, no. I just
00:32:39
wonder that cuz I um Yeah, sometimes mine's [ __ ] terrible, eh? Like what the way that I'll I'll speak to myself
00:32:44
sometimes it's like if anyone else spoke to me like that, I'd be like, you know,
00:32:48
[ __ ] off. I wouldn't tolerate it. >> I think as you get older, the beauty is that nowadays you learn what to ignore
00:32:54
or what not to ignore. Cuz when you're younger, you start looking at like little things like a black cat walked in
00:32:59
front of you on the rally stage or whatnot. Then you start thinking, "Oh no, is that bad?" But then as you get
00:33:02
older, all these things that have happened before, you go, "No, no, it's not bad because it's happened four times
00:33:06
before and nothing happened." Or I had the bad thought that maybe I was going to crash on this rally and then all of a
00:33:10
sudden you start hyperfocusing on, oh, am I is it trying to tell me something? Is there a hidden message there? But
00:33:15
then you go, "No, no, I've had it before. Nothing bad happened." So, you learn to trust yourself and ignore
00:33:20
things, I think, more as you get older. >> Hey, thanks for being so open about all
00:33:23
this stuff. >> Well, there's no secrets anyway. So, >> yeah. >> Um, no, it's just good to share the
00:33:29
story. And >> Oh, no. I think I think in New Zealand as well it's also good to share because
00:33:32
a lot of people will give a false image or or see a false image and will come up
00:33:37
with their own conclusion of who you are or how you've achieved what you've achieved and how you got to where you
00:33:41
got to. And I think sometimes it's good to show that at the end of the day you're just human like anyone else and
00:33:46
there's nothing special. It's just a special set of circumstances and people around you that have helped you achieve
00:33:52
to what you've achieved. You're you're 38, so you're a little bit younger than me, but you were still, I suppose,
00:33:57
raised in a time in New Zealand where Yeah. you just didn't sort of speak about this stuff.
00:34:01
>> No, you put a mask on and just sort of cracked on with it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And my dad's very old school in that
00:34:07
respect. There's just no emotions. I'm a pretty emotionless person. Um so you just get on and do it. You just And if
00:34:13
you got too many feelings, you just bury them. That that Kiwi um man attitude from the past, I guess.
00:34:20
>> What's your relationship with vulnerability like? you are you do you and your dad ever have like
00:34:27
what's the longest conversation you've ever had? Is it like three minute if you look at the screen time is it like 3
00:34:31
minute phone calls? >> Well, normally the phone calls are always about work or the sport. It's
00:34:35
never about what's actually going on in our lives or emotions or see like for me
00:34:40
a phone's a tool. So I like pick it up to like get stuff done or organize stuff. when someone wants to ring up and
00:34:45
talk about the weather or anything. I'm like, "Oh god, don't for me, but yeah. Um I think dad did
00:34:54
actually shed a tear when we won in Argentina." So whenever you see him shed a tear, you know, oh [ __ ] this must be
00:34:59
quite major because like you never see this anymore. Um so uh yeah, it doesn't happen very often.
00:35:04
>> Yeah. So as a kid, I believe you had a goal book. >> Yep. >> Yeah. What was that? like a notebook
00:35:11
that you just >> uh well it was actually done on a computer um but yeah I think when I was
00:35:15
12 I started it because when I got my first race car which was a little mini um you know through dad and people
00:35:22
around me um they made it pretty clear to me that I need to have goals and and life goals and obviously my ultimate
00:35:27
goal was to try and be a world rally champion but it was like how do you break that down so it was always for me
00:35:32
it was always about one year goal threeear goals and 5 year goals and breaking it down and
00:35:36
>> obviously once a rallying become more serious then I'd break it down into event bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
00:35:39
bye bye bye event goals as Well, um, so you know, I think it was always very important to have clear targets because
00:35:45
especially in in any sport and environment, you can only be one winner. And it can be very quickly perceived
00:35:50
that if you don't win, you failed. But often, particularly in our sport, it's just simply not possible to win,
00:35:55
particularly when you're a rookie and you're new and maybe you don't have the car or the equipment to to compete at
00:35:59
the top. So having clear targets was my definition of winning. So if I if I meet
00:36:05
those targets, then I won. And then all of a sudden, it put you in a positive mindset. you weren't down in the dumps
00:36:10
that you didn't win. It's like I'm on target. I'm hitting my goals and it keeps the momentum going and keeps you
00:36:15
in a good in a good mindset going forward. So, it was always very good for me to have not only goals, but realistic
00:36:20
goals as well, not pie in the sky go I'm going to go out and win everything because that's just not realistic. It
00:36:25
was about achievable goals and and making sure they step by step went in the right direction.
00:36:30
>> Where the hell did that come from? That is so wise. >> I don't know about wise, but um at that
00:36:35
age you just want to win, right? But so some you must have got it from somewhere.
00:36:39
>> Well, dad taught me a lot of things. He was as he was massive in so many parts.
00:36:42
Um you know he was a big role model behind a lot of those um directional things and what I did and how I
00:36:49
structured my life and and those goal setting um in terms of what the goals were that had to come from me. Um but
00:36:54
how I broke that down and and once you I guess you learned the basics of it then
00:36:58
obviously as you got older you developed it and it become better and better. >> That's so powerful. Well, if you look at
00:37:03
um say the NBA for example, there's um there's there's there's a top 10 list of the top um point scorers and then
00:37:08
there's a list of the the the most shots missed as well. And the lists are very similar on both of them. You've got
00:37:14
LeBron, Kobe, MJ. >> So, you got to fail as much as what you succeed exactly what you were saying.
00:37:20
And you you can't control necessarily if you're going to win an event, but you just control the controllables.
00:37:24
>> Yep. Yeah. Couldn't be more right. So, um, your first car at 13, if we exclude
00:37:30
the the Camry that you were driving at six, uh, a little red 1982 land Mini called the Brick.
00:37:35
>> Yep. >> Which you used to drive around paddics. >> Yep. Paddock at home in Gealdine. Um, I
00:37:40
actually sold my two pet cows to be able to buy it. So, um, Harold and Jumbo, they may may or may not went to the meat
00:37:47
works, but that's what gave me my Were >> they like pets? >> They were pets. So, it was a sad day
00:37:52
when they went, but uh, I got $500 for them. I know that much. And that $500 is what bought the Mini. Um but yeah,
00:37:58
that's where it all started with the Mini around Geraldine and then Ashbertton Car Club. So it was a good
00:38:02
way to start. >> In 2001, that was your that was the first time you were involved in a crash.
00:38:06
That was uh a rally in Timaru co-driving for your dad. >> Might have been actually was it that
00:38:12
maybe as a co-driver? Yes. With dad and I think as a driver. It was >> Hey mate, don't don't question my
00:38:18
research. Okay. You probably know more than me. >> No, no, no. I think similar time I I had
00:38:23
my first crash as a driver as well, but I think the first crash with dad was uh was maybe during Tamarelli. Yeah.
00:38:29
>> Yeah. In 2002, I have it here as your first crash. You rolled the mini. >> You're right. You know more than me
00:38:34
then. >> How um Yes. So 2002. How old were you then? >> 14. Not quite 15, I think, when I hit
00:38:41
the first crash. >> What's that like? >> It happens pretty quick. It happens very
00:38:46
fast. Um and it almost always comes out of the blue. So, you don't expect it. And all of a sudden, you're rolling
00:38:52
through the paddic in this case. And uh the first car I had, the Mini, um didn't
00:38:56
actually have a roll cage. So, when it finished rolled rolling, I actually had my head down on the side because the
00:39:00
roof had come down on my head cuz we actually just brought the roll cage material, but we're about to put in the
00:39:05
car the following week. So, it was bad timing. Um but I remember I was a little bit of a a hot head at that time because
00:39:11
I was so driven even though it was just a club event, Ashton Car Club competing in the paddic. It was all there for fun.
00:39:17
I was so competitive. if I want to win. And my first thought after I crashed was
00:39:21
that I'm not going to win now. So, I think I got out of the car and I threw my helmet on the ground and had a little
00:39:26
little tantrum to myself and but I was just upset that we weren't going to win. Um, that's just how competitive I was.
00:39:31
>> God, if only there was some footage of that. >> I'm glad there's no footage. >> Yeah, that would be embarrassing.
00:39:35
>> So, you weren't shaken up or anything. >> No, no. I think I had a bit of whiplash
00:39:39
and I had to go back to hospital, whatnot, but um um No, it was just part of the sport. And the following week, I
00:39:45
think it was, I then or maybe two weeks later, I then did my first rally, which was in dad's Toyota car, Toyota rally
00:39:51
car. So, he actually gave me the keys to his car literally after I just um ruined
00:39:55
my own car and went and did my first rally. And that was definitely the the definition of getting back on the horse
00:40:01
as quickly as he could. >> And it's around this time uh your dad asked you how you you plan to pay for
00:40:06
your racing. >> Yes. Yeah. >> What? And and you end up getting a bunch of jobs. Was was that tough love or did
00:40:13
he just not have the financial means to support it or what do you think it was? >> I know it was both. Um and I I think it
00:40:20
was one of the best lessons he taught me. Dad was very old school in the fact that he worked hard for everything he
00:40:24
had. Um come from a small family upbringing. He he you know between him and granddad they they built a farm
00:40:30
machinery business. Um also a car mechanic business. And you know it wasn't a big massive business. It was a
00:40:38
small business that, you know, allowed dad to get by and build a life, but it didn't allow him to go spend, you know,
00:40:43
lots of money on motorsport. You know, for us, it was just a bit of fun on the side. So, he wanted to teach me that I
00:40:47
had to work hard for something I wanted. So, um, at the time, you thought, "Oh, that's a bit tough and everything. Why
00:40:53
why you so hard on me?" Um, you know, he used to put goals in place. So, uh, cuz
00:40:56
he knew I was big at the time and it was, you know, slow me down in life. And while it might seem harsh, but I mean,
00:41:02
like, you know, he'd set targets for my weight. I had to be a certain weight if I if I was going to be able to go to the
00:41:07
next rally, which got to the point where when you had a food addiction, um you maybe mentally weren't in the right
00:41:12
place. It got to the point where I would start fiddling with the scales. I tried
00:41:16
to work out how you can manipulate scales to make them work to make them read the number that you wanted to read.
00:41:21
So, I worked out that doesn't work. Um but I'll do anything in my power to try and make sure I was racing even though I
00:41:27
couldn't maybe manage some of those other aspects um so well. But um yeah, he just taught me I had to work hard for
00:41:33
what I wanted, whether it was with my training, whether it was with my food, um whether it was with the money. Um so
00:41:38
yeah, just went out and then started working jobs at the fish and chip shop and um potato harvester at night, um
00:41:44
morning paper run, tried doing all these things to try and make as much money as
00:41:47
I could to effectively fund what I was doing. >> So pretty much every waking moment
00:41:53
outside of school was working. >> Yes. Yeah, a lot of it was working. um or working on my car. I used to, you
00:42:00
know, I'm not a train mechanic, but dad would teach me how to work on the car. So, if I broke it, I had to fix it,
00:42:05
which was a good reason why I didn't want to break it, cuz I didn't have to fix it. Um and then we went out and then
00:42:10
from, you know, following on from those jobs, it sort of quickly worked out that, you know, minimum wage paying jobs
00:42:15
wasn't really going to help. Also, working at a fish and chip shop when you've got a food problem, um and you
00:42:21
can get free feeds doesn't help. So, that didn't help with the physique, shall we say. Um, so then worked out
00:42:27
pretty quickly that you had to try and work out with sponsors and that's when I started working with sponsors and at the
00:42:31
age of 13 and in my small town of Jeline. Um, went around pretty much all the businesses on the main street of
00:42:36
Jeline and they all ended up hitting on $100 each and we called it a shop Geline
00:42:41
campaign and we tried to promote my local town and all of a sudden we turn up at these local car club events which
00:42:46
are all about lowbudget racing. you know, you can basically turn up with your own family car and do these sort of
00:42:51
events. And here I am turned up with a freshly painted red Mini, all these sponsor stickers all over it, making it
00:42:57
look like professional and clean and um and that's where it all started from the
00:43:00
age of 13 with my whole journey of, you know, working with sponsors and corporates and trying to raise funds.
00:43:05
>> I I don't I don't know if I've um been to Geraldine or not. How many shops are
00:43:08
in Geraldine? >> Not many. We had 13 sponsors. I know that. So that was probably nearly half
00:43:13
of the half of the town, I think. So >> yeah. So, um I mean that's so innovative
00:43:17
and looking back now it's probably you know there's the 10,000 hours theory like getting your 10,000 hours in before
00:43:21
you get to expert level at anything. So it's probably set you up nicely for you what you do now behind the scenes.
00:43:28
>> Who can you remember what was the proposal? You have like a written proposal.
00:43:31
>> Yeah, written proposal. Um I can't remember the the details or the ins and outs of it but uh I remember that the
00:43:37
whole the main thesis of the promotion was not necessarily about promoting each company. It was about promoting a town
00:43:42
as a as a destination. Um then we'd have all their stickers all over the car and
00:43:46
we'd go along the vents. We' made flies and it had the flies had like coupons on
00:43:49
it and we go around the events given the flies out everyone to go like come to Jane and go to the bakery and they'll
00:43:55
give you $5 off or whatnot. Um and then when I was back home I'd go around and see them regularly and make sure they
00:44:01
they knew what we're doing and results. We did little newsletters which back then wasn't email. It was actually like
00:44:06
a proper double-sided A4 piece of paper with a newsletter with all the updates of what we've been doing with the racing
00:44:11
and um and it was all for me it was always about underpromising overd delivering. It was always about do more
00:44:17
than what you say you're going to do and that was how you built the relationships. You got the foot in the
00:44:20
door and then cuz you know once you got $100 you wanted to then try and you know
00:44:23
build that to get $200 the following year and um and then so on. Um and that was all about building those
00:44:28
relationships. In hindsight, why why do you think those um those uh shops and those shop owners
00:44:35
um gave you the $100? Was it just like a cute kid or they appreciated you drive or were they getting a good return on
00:44:42
investment? >> Uh it definitely wasn't cute and I' I'd question the return on investment at
00:44:47
that age as well. But um I think for me growing up in a small community gives so
00:44:52
many opportunities. So South Canterbury was so supportive when I when I was younger. Um, and to be completely frank,
00:44:59
if I grew up in Oakuckland trying to do what we did, I don't think I'd actually achieve or be where I am today because
00:45:04
the local community got behind you, like the local newspaper would report on you
00:45:07
as a 12, 13year-old, even when I was in go-karts. And because of that, a lot of people in the community, they knew your
00:45:13
story. They knew you a young kid. Um, I was very positive in what I wanted to achieve. Um, everyone knew my story. So
00:45:20
then when I come along knocking on the door, they sort of knew who you were to begin with, which made the discussion a
00:45:25
lot easier. Um, and then you know through those early years I remember uh when I was 14 there was a big spread in
00:45:32
in the Timur Herald about me racing the Mini and you know in New Zealand it's very unique to get a motorsport license
00:45:36
when you're 12. There's nowhere else in the world you can drive a race car when you're 12 years old. And anyway this
00:45:40
newspaper article must have went on the online system. I don't know how it worked but it got picked up by the UK.
00:45:45
And I remember doing a phone interview on a radio station in the UK when I was 14 because they were astounded about a
00:45:50
14-year-old racing the Mini because it's just not heard of. Um but it created opportunities and because the local
00:45:55
newspaper really got behind us that whenever we were competing they were writing good news stories and everyone
00:46:00
knew who we uh what we were doing. Um and the community sort of got behind us and embraced us.
00:46:06
>> That's so cool. You don't have a copy of the um proposal or any of that stuff now
00:46:11
or >> I probably do somewhere buting I've hoarded a lot of stuff so I don't know
00:46:14
where you'd find it all but I'm sure there'd be one hidden somewhere. >> Mate, you got to do another book at some
00:46:18
point. >> He would and have copies of these in there. This is um it's legendary.
00:46:24
>> It's been it's been a journey that's for sure. But um yeah, like this all stuff
00:46:28
I'm pretty proud of to do and it's helped me do what we've achieved now. Like it's shaped like learning how to
00:46:33
work with sponsors when you're 13. Like I'd say it was just as daunting asking someone as a 13-year-old for $100 and
00:46:39
what it is now if you're asking someone for six figures. It's the nerves and everything are just the same. So it's
00:46:44
just at a different level. >> Unbelievable. And uh 2005, that's where you had a um this fiery crash that
00:46:50
destroyed your car. >> Y >> for a moment, did you think that would potentially be the end of your rally
00:46:55
dream? >> Yep. 100% thought it was the end. Um >> what happened? >> Uh well, long story short, dad actually
00:47:01
went out and brought this $30,000 Mitsubishi four drive rally car, which as a 18-year-old, you know, that was
00:47:07
like a wood rally car for me at the time. Um and to begin with, I thought dad actually brought it for himself. I
00:47:12
didn't know he brought it that I was going to drive it. So, he sank pretty much all of his money into this car. Um,
00:47:18
and that was pretty much all we had. Um, the year had been pretty tough, but anyway, this one particular rally came
00:47:23
around the corner and obviously got the speed wrong and fell off the side of the
00:47:26
road and the car just ended on it side. There was virtually no damage on the car, but we just couldn't push the car
00:47:31
back on its wheels. Um, so anyway, I go down the road to slow down the oncoming next cars to make sure no one, you know,
00:47:37
crashes on the same corner and goes on top of the car. But about 10 minutes later, the co-driver was yelling out
00:47:42
fire, fire, fire. So I run back down the road, come around the corner and then I
00:47:46
see flames, you know, higher than the roof of this building um coming out from the bottom and it's like straight away
00:47:50
it's like panic like you can't go back in the car where the fire extinguishers are. Um it's like what do you do? We're
00:47:57
in the middle of a forest in the middle of nowhere on your own. So naively I think I I'm wearing flame proof race
00:48:02
suit. I'll take that off and I'll try and smother the flames. So I took my race suit off. Obviously the flames were
00:48:07
way too big and it was it was always going to never going to work. The problem with that idea though is that
00:48:12
cuz obviously in rally the cars run at one or two minute intervals. So then you got to wait for the next car to try and
00:48:16
stop them to get their fire extinguisher. So I'm running in the middle of the road waving them down and
00:48:20
whatnot. But I'm half naked. I'm just in my underwear now in the middle of the ashy forest in the middle of nowhere. So
00:48:26
I think what even what ended up happening is I completely startled them and they didn't stop. So we didn't
00:48:31
actually get the forest signatures from the next car. So um so we had to wait 2 minutes. So by the time the next car
00:48:36
come, the car was completely engulfed and it was completely gone. It was just completely burnt the whole thing out.
00:48:41
Not one thing was salvageable. And that was a $30,000 car gone. And and I remember sitting at home in bed for a
00:48:48
day or so, feeling pretty sorry for myself, thinking I actually do remember thinking, "This is the end." before it's
00:48:54
even started because we hadn't really started. We're just getting going. But at that point, I never thought about
00:48:59
giving up. In my mind, my mindset was, "Okay, I got to go back to my Mini again. I'm going have to spend another
00:49:03
two, three years in my Mini and by then, okay, I'm going to be too old." But it was never about giving up. It was about
00:49:09
this is just going to be a massive um I guess speed bump in the journey. >> Accidents happen, but was your dad mad?
00:49:16
>> Don't recall actually. No, no, I don't actually recall. Um >> incredible. >> You think that'd be the default
00:49:21
instinct? >> Well, we know in the sport though that that dare I say it, [ __ ] happens. And in
00:49:26
this case, it did. >> But still, car. >> Yeah, it's not very often the car gets burnt out. So, it was it was pretty
00:49:32
unlucky in that respect. But um yeah, we're obviously then bounced back from that through again the local community
00:49:38
who I guess helped us get back on our feet. >> And 2006, 20 years ago, you team up with
00:49:44
um a guy called John Kennard who um is still your co-driver to this day. >> I think there's been a little break in
00:49:50
the middle. >> Yep. >> Um yeah, that's a that's a long partnership. Who who is John Kennard and
00:49:55
what are your first impressions of him? >> Uh yeah, 20 years on. Um we're as good
00:50:00
as an old married couple now, to be honest. So you were 18 at the time when you >> So um so we're just going to New Zealand
00:50:04
Rally Championship for the first time after the fire. Um so again, South Canary Community did a whole lot of
00:50:09
fundraising, got us back on our feet and not only did they get us back on our feet, they got us back into a late a
00:50:14
newer and better car which got us into New Zealand Rally Championship. Um but to make that step and with what my
00:50:19
ultimate goal was, we knew we had to get some experience involved in in what we were doing in our circle um to help us
00:50:25
develop and help me learn. So um someone in Tamaru actually suggested this guy called John Kennard. He had just come
00:50:31
back from Europe. He was working in Subaru World Rally Team at the time based with logistics and just part of
00:50:36
the team. Never heard of him, never heard of the name. I was too shy to make the call. So in the end, Dad gave him a
00:50:41
call and just sound the mount and go, "Hey, look, this is who we are. This is what we're doing. We're going to rally
00:50:45
next year. Do you want to come along and maybe co-drive?" Um, he was a little bit
00:50:49
on the fence to begin with cuz I think he'd just come back to New Zealand to retire from rallying. Um, and he started
00:50:53
the vineyard down in Benham. Um, so he come along and and did their first co- drive with me in a test and I just
00:50:59
remember because he'd been living in the UK for so long and growing up watching Colin McCrae all my life I got used to
00:51:04
this this British accent as a co-driver and all of a sudden he hops in the car and he had this British accent and I was
00:51:10
thinking this is pretty cool. So like Colin McCrae I got this British guy calling pace next to me next to me. Um
00:51:16
but in the end it just evolved from there really. Um we both never thought it would have gone as far as what we
00:51:21
did. Um we both never thought we'd both be together 20 years later. Um and it was a relationship that was definitely
00:51:28
the first definitely 3 four years he was a massive tutor to me if you like. So he's helped me with you know how do I
00:51:33
evolve as a driver? How do I write my pace notes? Um you know what opportunities do we need to look for
00:51:38
around the world to to develop my career. Um so it was very much he was helping dad and I between the three of
00:51:44
us between dad, John and I. We pretty much made all the decisions and all the calls and what we're going to do and we
00:51:49
sort of created the sort of our own little network if you like and then nowadays the relation relationship's
00:51:54
very different because we're just we trust in what each each other does. It's a complete trust relationship and we
00:52:00
just get on and do it and you know in John's case age is no barrier. You know he was now the oldest world championship
00:52:05
winning podium co-driver in history. >> How old is he now? >> 67. So does he must still enjoy it. H
00:52:12
>> he loves it. He's he's as competitive as me. Um, so we're both very competitive.
00:52:15
Um, he's even got his gold card now. He's going to bus for free. So he's he's getting a few bonuses as he gets older.
00:52:23
But, uh, no, >> has he got a family or anything? >> Uh, so he's got a wife in in Finland,
00:52:27
but no kids. >> Um, so yeah, I guess he almost took me a bit under his wing when I was 18, 19
00:52:33
year old. Is a bit like a kid if you like. So um, so it's pretty special the relationship we've we've um, developed
00:52:39
and he's probably outside dad. He is the second person in my life I've spent the
00:52:44
most time with in terms of, you know, who's been around me throughout all the highs and lows and throughout my career.
00:52:48
So, um, yeah, it's been pretty special relationship. >> Yeah, it must be cool to reflect and see
00:52:53
how that relationship's evolved over 20 years. Like, you probably don't even need to speak now without knowing what
00:52:59
each other is thinking. >> Oh, you're not wrong. Um, I'm not the biggest talker and but he knows it. So,
00:53:05
uh, he knows when I'm having little quiet spells. cuz he just knows who I am. And it's good because I feel
00:53:09
comfortable cuz you know often you know if you're not talking to someone and you're quiet it can get awkward. Whereas
00:53:13
with someone that you've been with for so long it's not awkward because you know he knows you, he understands you.
00:53:17
Likewise I understand him all his all his little quirks and stuff. So uh yeah. No, it works.
00:53:23
>> Yeah. Literally like an old married couple. >> We are. >> Um >> we just don't argue. That's the only
00:53:26
difference. >> Have Have you argued? >> No, never argued. So uh >> there must have been a blowup in 20
00:53:32
years. There must have been. Surely. >> No. No. There might have been. There's the odd little snark between me or him
00:53:37
like but it's just like over like that. So, um we're very different personalities in some senses as well,
00:53:43
but it works. So, uh yeah, it's an interesting one. >> Yeah. Well, there's that saying
00:53:47
opposites attract. >> Um I've got a card here called um Monte Carlo tragedy. >> Yeah.
00:53:54
>> So, this was um uh Thursday, January 19, 2017. Do you how do you like do you try
00:54:00
and bury this chapter or do you >> I did I did try and bury it but then it obviously all come flooding back this
00:54:05
year when we had to go back to Monte Carlo for the first time since that day. So um
00:54:09
>> Oh, was that the first time back? >> Yep. Yep. Yeah. Monte Carlo this year was an absolute nightmare. So uh
00:54:16
>> why so? >> Uh obviously after the accident Oh, massively trigger triggering. Um I tried
00:54:24
to run away from it. I never thought I'd ever go back to Monte Car again. So, um,
00:54:28
Monte Carlo this year, the fact that we got called back into the WC so last minute and we got told we're going back
00:54:33
to that rally. Um, the day that we got, well, the the day that I got the email saying that you're in to the rally was 6
00:54:40
weeks. That 6 weeks, worst six weeks of my life. Um, like I'm glad it's all over. And it was
00:54:46
such a probably one of the biggest accomplishments I've made personally in my life, which no one will ever know, no
00:54:52
one will ever understand of what it took to go through that six weeks before Monte Cara. and then and then actually
00:54:56
go do that rally again this year. Um it was very triggering. Um yeah, I'm not one to get emotional about stuff, but I
00:55:04
mean like I couldn't sleep for 6 weeks. Uh I had panic attacks. Um this is a sport that I absolutely love and I was
00:55:13
the constant dream I had in my head is that I'd hop in the car and go to the first stage, but I I wouldn't actually
00:55:18
go to the first stage. I'd actually turn off the road and go somewhere else. And
00:55:21
that's that's the equivalent of an All Black going to kick off the main the main kickoff for the rugby game, but
00:55:26
just freezing and not kicking off. And with 80,000 people watching, you're just not going to go kick the ball. That was
00:55:31
what my constant dream was is that I'm not going to start this rally. Um, but I knew I had to I couldn't say no to the
00:55:37
opportunity because if we didn't go back, um, then what we did in Croatia and this opportunity now, what we're
00:55:42
going wouldn't exist. So, you knew you had to face it was the biggest thing of facing your fear in life that I've ever
00:55:48
had. Um, and yeah, just proud that I got through that period to be honest. I actually go back and going back again.
00:55:54
You're going back to all the same hotels, all the same restaurants. Um, not that not not that many people know,
00:56:00
but I ended up having a panic attack over there and and took myself to the local hospital, but it was the same
00:56:04
hospital where the spectator that died went to. Um, just everything just felt like your whole world just felt like
00:56:12
your whole body was crumbling around you. And this was something that I love doing. So, um, it was, uh, yeah, tricky
00:56:18
tricky times. >> What What's a panic attack like? Like a heart attack? >> Well, I didn't even know because I've
00:56:23
never had one before. So, but just just the whole chest, you just got so tight you couldn't breathe. Um,
00:56:31
elevated heart rate, just everything. It's like you just couldn't control yourself. Um, I remember going into the
00:56:36
supermarket at the time. I was there trying to get lunch and just it's like everything just blacked out. You're like
00:56:42
walking around the supermarket and it's like I don't know what I want. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what
00:56:46
I'm here. And then I forgot the money. I forgot what I wanted. Went to the checkout. I went to the checkout with
00:56:53
one banana. I don't know why I picked up one banana cuz I don't eat bananas. Went to the checkout with a banana. And
00:56:59
then they asked for the money. I had no money and I was just completely lost. Had no idea what I was doing, what I was
00:57:04
doing. And after that it's just I couldn't breathe. So that's when I >> when got checkups and whatnot. But um
00:57:09
yeah, that's when you realize that, you know, this isn't good. There's something
00:57:13
going on that's out of your control at the moment. >> Yeah. So, so this is recently. This is
00:57:16
earlier earlier this year. Did did anyone know what you were going through? Could you talk to John about it? Did you
00:57:22
No. >> No. You had to. Is it has this opportunity come up so last minute? Um and like us coming back to the WC is
00:57:30
like again I use the rugby terminology, but it's like an all black coming back eight years later um after you've missed
00:57:35
a World Cup and then coming back again. Like it just doesn't happen. So this opportunity was massive and you know you
00:57:40
got to attack it in a professional way. So you don't want to be seen to be weak um you know especially when you're at
00:57:46
the height of your sport if you like. So you have to find ways to overcome it. Um
00:57:50
so I did talk I did talk with someone um who was trying to help me in the background um once I knew there was an
00:57:55
issue. But really the for me the biggest thing was I just had to do it. That was
00:57:59
I just had to just face my fear. I just had to just deal with the the the physical things that were going on my
00:58:06
body and just go, "Okay, this is part of the process. I just got to I just got to
00:58:10
tough this out." And then, you know, once I got through the rally and got through and finished, it's just a
00:58:14
massive biggest weight off the shoulders I've ever had. Um, so yeah, the result at that rally was completely irrelevant.
00:58:20
We're as slow as We actually just didn't care. It's the first time in my life actually I didn't care about the result
00:58:25
after I say how I'm so competitive. I just actually just didn't care about how slow we were. uh is just the fact that
00:58:30
we did finish the rally, we ticked that box. And to be honest, what it showcased
00:58:34
to me is running away from that problem for 8 years, didn't fix it. Um I should have addressed it 8 years ago somehow.
00:58:40
Um a lot better. Um I feel like now I've overcome it and I have fixed it and now
00:58:45
it won't be an issue going forward. So a pretty big life lesson from that is don't run away from your problems.
00:58:53
>> You you're so good at um like talking about this stuff now. So this is something you've gone through recently
00:58:56
and you're really good at talking about it. Wouldn't it have been so much easier
00:58:59
if you talked to people about it at the time like John your co-driver or your dad or do you have a partner at the
00:59:05
moment? >> Uh yes, I've got a partner at the moment. Um >> why don't you give her a call?
00:59:08
>> Oh no, see she she she knew she knew what was going on. Um but she lives in in South America so u there's only so
00:59:15
much you can do over a text message or a phone call. But um >> um and and dad knew. Um so yeah, a
00:59:20
couple of the people close to me knew. But again, there's nothing they can really do. You can only just talk to
00:59:24
someone. But in in this situation, it didn't really help. I just >> I'm one of these people that doesn't
00:59:30
matter how much I talk about stuff, it ain't going to fix it. Um I'm more action over words. Um so I just had to
00:59:35
just get through it. But you know, 8 years ago, the situation we were in was very tricky. Um cuz again, as I said,
00:59:41
we're living in Germany. We're away from all our normal surroundings, our normal
00:59:44
culture. And at the time when the accident happened, basically the team told us, "Go home, sort yourself out.
00:59:49
You got to be in Sweden in 3 weeks time." Um your job was to to be back in the car. Um, and there there was no
00:59:56
support. We had no phone call from the team for 3 weeks. We had nothing from anyone. We were just literally told, "Go
01:00:02
home, sort yourself out." Um, and it wasn't until I got in the car the next rally um, 3 weeks later
01:00:07
>> and we did the the initial warm-up, the shakedown is what we call it in our sport, went out and did it. And after
01:00:12
the first shakedown run, turned to John and I was actually in tears going, "This
01:00:15
is something feels wrong. It feels everything feels wrong." Went back to the service part to the team and just
01:00:20
said to him, "Hey, look, everything feels different in the car. like the seat position, everything. And they
01:00:24
turned around and said, "Everything's exactly the same." And it was at that point that I knew that subconsciously it
01:00:29
was having a much bigger effect on me than what I thought because, you know, at the time I was 29, 30, I was naive. I
01:00:35
was thinking, "No, no, it's fine. I'll just get back in the car. It's my happy spot. It's what I do. I'll get over it.
01:00:39
I don't have any emotions." Obviously, I was sad and and taken back by the whole
01:00:43
situation, but there was nothing I could do. I couldn't fix it. The family wouldn't let me reach out to them. Um,
01:00:48
so I had no contact with anyone. So, it was just like, I have to just get on with it. And it probably wasn't until
01:00:53
the end of that year, 2017, um, which was a year where a lot of a lot of things unraveled for us, that I realized
01:00:58
that I needed a reset and to go, "Okay, it's not working." It did have a bigger effect on me than what I thought. Um,
01:01:04
let's go back to basics, flick the switch, and start again. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so that that incident
01:01:10
we're talking about, for anyone that's not clear, um, Thursday, January 19th, 2017, fatal crash in Monte Carlo where,
01:01:17
um, I mean, it's it's simply an accident. It's it's it's misfortune. It's bad luck. That's all it is. Um you
01:01:23
you slid off the road and there was a spectator there in a spot that perhaps he shouldn't have been.
01:01:27
>> Yep. >> Um did did you realize what had happened at the time? >> Yeah, I knew straight away. It wasn't
01:01:33
good. Um so you you can see you you're heading towards a a spectator or >> Yeah. So it was uh Thursday night, so
01:01:40
it's night time and Monte Car is the most difficult rally that we do cuz it's all ice, black ice. We're on like a
01:01:45
slick tire. So often you can be at walking speed and you can still crash. But anyway, it was a long left hand
01:01:50
corner and uh after sun after sunset a lot of black ice was developing and so it looked like it was all clear. Our
01:01:57
pace note said it was clear. So I put I start accelerating through this corner but all of a sudden we just hit a patch
01:02:02
of black ice. The car completely um snap sideways and basically around the inside
01:02:06
of the corner is an armco barrier and on the outside of the corner is just a massive rock face. Um and then it's just
01:02:12
the road in between. But as we're coming along sliding, there's a the photographer who's on the side of the
01:02:18
road. He's actually on standing on the road, but he's sort of on the edge of it, but with no escape route because
01:02:23
there's a rock face behind him. And I just remember looking out the side window and he's basically right there at
01:02:27
the back window. And I just remember as we slide, just a thump of him hitting the side of the car. And um a lot of
01:02:34
people at the time thought he'd fallen down from cuz it was in front of live TV cameras as well. They thought he'd
01:02:39
fallen down from the cliff face. Um but that was him from hitting the car. Um, so straight away straight away I knew it
01:02:46
was it was not good cuz we still had some speed on when he hit the side of the car. Um, and then the car hit the
01:02:50
cliff, rolled and ended up on its side and he ended up behind the car. Um, so we got out of the car and um, John and I
01:02:56
assess the situation and you know straight away we knew it was it was not good. So John stayed with the with the
01:03:03
spectator. Um, I think it was there was nothing anyone could do. And then my job
01:03:08
was to stop the next cars and get the emergency services in as quick as we could. So, um, yeah, it was a cold, dark
01:03:15
night in Monte Carlo and, um, and yeah, it wasn't the best very first stage of a
01:03:21
new season with new cars. Worst possible way you could start a season and, um, it
01:03:25
was basically a nightmare in all respects. There hadn't been a death in the sport for decades uh, at that level
01:03:31
in WRC. So, to be part of to be, you know, a part of that um, was a hard pill to swallow
01:03:39
>> for you personally. the next um like 24 48 hours after that. How were they? >> Uh it's a bit of a blur to be honest. Um
01:03:47
you sort of just went into a bit of a cocoon and tried to hide away from the world and uh we went back to Germany. Um
01:03:54
there was some other stuff going on personally at the same time that didn't help um with um with family and whatnot.
01:04:00
So it just it just seemed like your world was crumbling um at the time. Um so yeah, just sat on the couch feeling
01:04:09
sorry for yourself and um obviously very conscious about how many other people were affected because that the reality
01:04:15
was you know someone had just lost a family member and and whether who was right or wrong that where I was the
01:04:21
person behind the steering wheel of that car. Um so um it took a bit to get over that and um
01:04:26
just the fact that you didn't really have any support mechanism around you at that time in the middle of nowhere in
01:04:32
Germany where we were living probably made it a little bit harder on what it probably should have been.
01:04:35
>> Yeah, I can't imagine how lonely or isolating that felt. >> Definitely pretty isolated but I guess
01:04:40
the positive of growing up in a isolated world as well I guess helped in some sense if you like. It was a little bit
01:04:46
normal but um yeah it was a strange a strange time. >> But you what emotions are you feeling?
01:04:51
Is it like um like grief or or guilt or >> just a deep sadness? >> I think it was just a deep sadness. Um
01:05:01
>> I don't think I ever blamed myself as such cuz at the end of the day we were doing our job. Um
01:05:06
>> it was just an accident. >> It was a pure accident. It it didn't matter who was in stand in the right or
01:05:10
wrong place. The fact of the matter was an accident. So I don't think there was a blame game going on. It was just a
01:05:15
complete sadness for the situation and why it happened how it happened. Um, and just the biggest thing I wanted from the
01:05:23
sport perspective was how was the sport going to learn from it that it didn't happen again? And that's where we're
01:05:28
trying to be proactive with the governing body to go, okay, how do we stop this happening again in terms of,
01:05:32
you know, destination or zones where spectators are or controls and whatnot? Because, you know, at the end of the
01:05:38
day, from a when you're a professional driver at that level, you can't worry if the spectators are close to the road or
01:05:42
not. If you start slowing down because of spectators, then you lose your job because you're not fast anymore. So, you
01:05:48
have to block it out. Um, so therefore it's on the event organizers and and the spectators to take a bit of
01:05:53
responsibility to make sure they're all in safe places so that we can provide the show that they come to watch if you
01:05:58
like. So it's it's a it's a tough one that one. >> Um, yes, I believe the the spectator
01:06:04
died in hospital uh later on. No, on the scene straight away. >> We knew straight away. Um, how they
01:06:11
reported it was a little bit unique. So there was a lot of mixed messaging going
01:06:14
around that night, but we we knew that he was he was unfortunately gone on the scene.
01:06:20
>> Did you ever consider giving up? >> No, no, it was never there was never a doubt in my mind about giving up. Um
01:06:28
again, I come back to my goal. So I I had this goal of trying to be a world champion within 5 years and I think this
01:06:32
was year three. It was definitely a big hurdle. It was more about how do you pick yourself up and how do you recover
01:06:37
from this and get you know make sure we deliver good results again which for the
01:06:41
whole of 2017 we we we really didn't. It was a big missed opportunity which then
01:06:45
cut our contract in half in 2018. We were on the the back end of I guess you could say bad politics within the sport
01:06:52
which you see in all sports. It's just part of the game. Um so that year did probably affect us a lot cuz then
01:06:58
affected 2018 and then of course then we had no contract for 2019. So that was probably the start of the unraveling um
01:07:05
over the next two years really. >> Uh you mentioned before that the um the the man's family didn't want to um
01:07:11
connect with you or anything. Would would that have been helpful? Would that have like given you some sort of sense
01:07:15
of closure or >> not closure? But I felt it was a respectful thing to do to at least reach
01:07:20
out and just know the people involved and you know show your sympathy and and and
01:07:27
whatnot. But um the fact that it all got closed down and they just didn't want to
01:07:31
know nothing. I just had to move on. There was nothing I could do. I didn't know who the family was. I didn't know
01:07:35
any names. I knew the nationality. I knew it was a Spanish um person, but other than that, I I was completely in
01:07:42
the dark and still to this day don't know anything. >> Oh, sorry you had to go through that. I
01:07:49
actually saw there was a quote in the New Zealand news media at the time from um Nana.
01:07:55
Is she still alive? >> Yeah, Nana. She's she's one of our biggest supporters. Uh 88 89. I'll get
01:08:00
in trouble if I get that wrong, but no, she's uh she's amazing. >> Uh she said um it's a low point that he
01:08:07
will soon get past. And the main thing is he's got he's got a very level-headed way of looking at things. He never
01:08:12
blames anybody and when things like this happen, he takes a considerate view. I love him dearly and I'm very proud of
01:08:18
him, too. >> Yeah. Right. >> That's beautiful. E >> I never read that. Never saw that at the
01:08:22
time. No. No. Don't know where that was. >> Yeah. How does that make you feel? >> Uh like people close to me like Nana and
01:08:29
dad and they've always I know had my back and um >> yeah I don't know it's it's cool to know
01:08:35
that those sort of people were supporting you. Um >> the biggest thing for me that year uh is
01:08:40
that I stopped enjoying it and that's that was the big reality check for me because I was living a boyhood dream. I
01:08:46
was in a manufacturer team representing a global manufacturer doing something that many people told me as a kid that I
01:08:52
can never do. it was just not possible from the side of the world to be in the World Rally Championship. And I stopped
01:08:57
enjoying it. It's like I'm living my dream. And like that was when I was in the middle of a three-year contract. And
01:09:02
I actually remember thinking, I've got another year and a half of this. How am I going to survive another year and a
01:09:07
half of this? This is like absolute brutal. I'm just I hate this. So over time, I realized that was my realization
01:09:15
to go I need to enjoy this again and actually take it back to basics and go, okay. Um, so that's where for 2018 it
01:09:21
was just like, okay, strip it right back, remember why I'm doing this, remember why I love driving race cars,
01:09:27
um, and just go and enjoy it. And that's what we did for 2018 and and got things
01:09:31
back on track again, I guess. So, um, that reality check was was definitely needed. It was a harsh reality check,
01:09:36
but it was what was needed. >> You So, you broke up with um, John Kennard for a time after that. Was that
01:09:43
to do with the Monte Carlo thing or was that completely different? >> Uh, no. There was there was internal
01:09:49
pressure from the team. Um we were struggling for results in the first part of the year and um there was a
01:09:56
perception within the team that maybe John was past it um and that we needed a bit of fresh blood in the car to help
01:10:02
us. >> AISM. >> So it was pushed on us. um where initially we're going to do the change
01:10:08
uh after Finland cuz John's always been the very first person to put up his hand
01:10:11
and go look if I don't if you feel I'm not performing or I'm not up to level then you need to have someone in the car
01:10:16
to make sure you can perform. Um he's always been the first supporter and and never put up any barriers against that.
01:10:22
So you know collectively we we thought that you know towards the long-term future because at that time we wanted to
01:10:28
be in the WC for a long long time um you know that maybe that wasn't going to be
01:10:31
the place for him in 5 10 years time. Little did we know now that 8 years later we're still doing it. But anyway,
01:10:37
so that's where we thought we'd bring in a young co driver. So we thought Finland
01:10:40
would be the changeover spot because it was his home rally um or his second home
01:10:43
rally. But then when the first part of the year was not going well, we basically had to sit down the team and
01:10:47
the team said, "Look, we need to make this change early." Um so it was forced upon us. We had to make the change early
01:10:52
in the season. It was it was it was framed as that um John had an injury um which he did. he had he had to have a
01:11:01
hip replacement, but that wasn't the main reason behind the decision um at the time. So, um it was a matter of us
01:11:07
keeping the team happy. We had to adhere to the politics and it was just part of
01:11:11
the game that we had to to play. I guess >> that must have been tough for you like
01:11:16
you know sort of um a team decision being made to and you have to break up with your mate.
01:11:22
>> There was a lot of stuff going on at that time. Um obviously the accident um then yeah John at the time um all
01:11:29
happened at the same time the same time that my engagement ended of 10 years um all this happened within 3 4 months
01:11:36
>> um so I felt like your world was was really crumbling everyone who was close to you okay obviously dad was still
01:11:40
there but you know your partner at the time your co-driver who you've been already at that time with for 10 plus
01:11:45
years um everything was disappearing so yeah it was it was starting to feel pretty lonely. Yeah, there's that saying
01:11:51
when it rains when it rains it pours. Sure does. And and I don't know, everyone in life goes through some sort
01:11:56
of like adversity patches and it it seems like when you're in those patches, you try as hard as what you can to get
01:12:01
out of it. And the harder you try, the more I don't know, the more things seem to like [ __ ] up.
01:12:06
>> Well, cuz it's ironic cuz up until that time, again, going back to my goal list,
01:12:10
everything was more or less going exactly the plan up till 2017, like ticking the list off, moving up the
01:12:15
ladder, we're achieving our goals in the sport, personally, everything. 2017 was when I've, you know, as you
01:12:21
say, when it rains, it pours. >> That's the first time I had that in my life where everything was going wrong.
01:12:26
And like nowadays, you go, I almost wait for the stuff to go wrong nowadays for [ __ ] to turn sour because you know that
01:12:32
at the other end of it, you're going to bounce back. But at the time, because that was the first time I'd really
01:12:36
struck all these challenges in my life. You're like, wow, why me? Why now? What what what's going on? Um, so there was a
01:12:42
lot of growing up to do from that, I guess. >> Yeah. I I had this lady on the podcast
01:12:46
recently called um Dr. Alia Bojalva. She was um uh an SAS psychologist here in New Zealand and she's got a she wrote a
01:12:53
book about resilience and she calls it um she hates the term bounceback. She prefers the term bounce forward cuz she
01:12:59
says bounce back is going back to exactly where you were beforehand but she goes you can actually go beyond that
01:13:05
and I quite quite like that step back too forward. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, the the um the 10-year uh
01:13:11
relationship breakup at that time that was was that sort of exasperated by the Monte Carlo thing, do you think or uh
01:13:18
>> I think or just ran its course? >> I think it just ran its course. Um there was some other stuff going on, but
01:13:24
that's beside the point. I think yeah, it just ran its course and you know, I probably changed as a person when you're
01:13:29
in that high pressure environment of being a professional driver and and you know, as we say, stuff going wrong. Um,
01:13:35
you know, my life's been very very much molded around the sport. So, when it's going well, then you're probably in a
01:13:41
good frame of mind. When things are going bad, then >> it probably, you know, reflects in your
01:13:45
personality and the person that you're becoming. So, um, >> are you awful to be around when
01:13:50
>> I wouldn't say awful. I just like to keep to myself. So I I yeah I'm very quiet and keep to myself when things are
01:13:56
not so good >> because I've had a number of like high performance sports people on the podcast
01:14:00
and a lot of them say like on the leadup to a big game they're like they're awful
01:14:04
to be around. >> Yeah. Well the nerves definitely play. Yeah. Definitely. You definitely like to
01:14:08
keep to yourself somewhat. Um I I sort of refer to myself like a sick dog or sick animal when it's dying that if it's
01:14:15
gone bad just leave me alone. I'll be in the corner cuddled up. Just stay away. >> Just let me die in peace.
01:14:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh um so something that I couldn't get my head around while doing the research for this
01:14:27
podcast is um the Hyandai thing. So you you're driving with Hyandai now. You've just come back from Croatia where you
01:14:33
finished third in the WRC uh driving a Hyandai, but there was um there was some some some fallout with them. The quote I
01:14:41
have from you is um they hung me out to dry. I don't understand enough about the
01:14:44
politics of rallying to to understand this. >> So well there it is a little bit confusing because there's two sides of
01:14:51
this. So firstly, there's there's a relationship that we have with Hyundai New Zealand. Um so that's we went out
01:14:55
and sat down with the the Howard, the big boss here in New Zealand and wanted to create this long-term relationship
01:15:00
like what Bosum did. So Hyundai New Zealand, they've been behind us now for 12 years. Super supportive of everything
01:15:05
we've been doing here in New Zealand, the projects, um the electric rally car, our team, everything here. So that's all
01:15:11
been built around what we've done with Hyundai New Zealand. Hyundai Motorsport is a very separate entity. So that's the
01:15:16
entity that basically employs us to drive for them in the World Rally Championship. So that's a team of 250
01:15:23
people. Um you know their budgets are tens of millions, hundreds of millions of euros a year to run these rally
01:15:29
programs and you are there as a driver. So that's a very separate program. The problem is when you're in there as a
01:15:34
prof a professional driver every year, like most any other sports, there's always negotiations for contracts. Um,
01:15:40
so you might be on a multi-year contract or or a single year contract, but often
01:15:44
the drivers will go out and talk to the other teams to try and put pressure on on your own team to either up the price
01:15:49
or to hurry up and sign the contract. But Hyundai Motorsport, they knew of our relationship with Hyundai New Zealand. I
01:15:55
was very vocal about my loyalty to the brand, how I was proud to represent the brand and I want to build this over
01:16:00
long-term. So they knew my loyalty to the brand. So based on this, they knew they didn't have to quickly sign us
01:16:06
because they knew that we were not going to go talk to Toyota or Ford or the other team. So in that case, we're
01:16:11
actually our own worst enemy. >> You're in a vulnerable position. >> We put ourselves in a vulnerable
01:16:15
position that we didn't know that we're putting ourselves in. So come 2018, we actually went out and we we sort of
01:16:19
achieved everything the team wanted us to achieve. The last three rallies we did that year were on the podium twice.
01:16:24
Um, of the four drivers that year, there were four drivers, we were the second highest point scoring driver in the
01:16:29
team. Um, and over the final three months of 2018, we had many meetings that I was there myself as part of these
01:16:34
meetings. Shook hands, deal was done for 2019. We had a part-time driver game for
01:16:38
for six or seven rounds as part of the the manufacturer team for 2019. Everything was done. The problem was
01:16:44
they'd already gone away and signed the other drivers. They keep telling us and keep telling us, "Yeah, the contract's
01:16:48
coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming." 2 weeks before Christmas at the end of 2018, um, Sebastian Lo comes out
01:16:54
of retirement and wants to wants to see. And of course, we're not yet signed up.
01:16:58
We've got an agreement, we've got a deal, everything's done, but we just don't have the the signature on a piece
01:17:02
of paper. Um, and we're the collateral damage um for when Okay, the silver lining is if you're going to get
01:17:06
replaced, you get replaced by the best driver of all time in our sport. But still, it's just simply because they
01:17:12
knew that we were not going anywhere else. Um, that they could put us on the fence and like you just wait there in
01:17:17
our own time. We'll get it to you when we're ready. Um, so yeah, so we we fell out through that. We lost our contract.
01:17:24
We had no drive for 2019. Um, and just like that, the whole dream was unraveled. Like, you know, we're trying
01:17:29
to be a world rally champion. Everything was tracking in in the right direction.
01:17:32
Um, and all of a sudden, it was the rug was pulled out from underneath you when you least expected it and didn't really
01:17:38
get the chance to recover from it. Um, not from a lack of trying. We obviously tried to get back over the following
01:17:42
years, but yeah, it's sort of come pretty unexpectedly. >> Oh, so you just really hurt at the time?
01:17:48
>> Oh, hurt 100% cuz we had a deal. Everything was done. Um, >> was it do like um I'd be the same as you
01:17:55
like a handshake's a handshake and you've expressed your loyalty and >> but in hindsight in the professional
01:18:01
sporting environment were you naive? >> I don't think so. I think we we did things in the Kiwi way which what we've
01:18:08
learned doesn't work in Europe. The Kiwi way doesn't work in Europe. So the Kiwi
01:18:12
way of you know the loyalty, honesty, a handshake's a handshake um often doesn't
01:18:18
work in Europe. even a contract often is not as is as is worth as much as a piece
01:18:22
of paper it's written on. So, um how you trust people and how you work with people I think changes moving forward.
01:18:28
Um and I think that's just growing in life. It's just it's just the way life is and not only sport and the corporate
01:18:33
world and and whatever. So, there was a lot of lessons out of that. Um >> like what
01:18:38
>> uh we we should have pushed to get signed earlier. We we were we were being probably too polite during the process
01:18:43
going yes okay, no problem. No problem. It's okay. Yeah, it's all right. We'll just do it in your time. We don't want
01:18:47
to bother you. It's fine. We should have pushed. We should have pushed in the mid
01:18:50
part of the year. No, no, we need a piece of paper right now. Um because that's what the other drivers were
01:18:55
doing. That's what the other managers were doing. Um you know, the other drivers had their own managers. So, they
01:18:59
have managers doing it. Whereas for us, we did it ourselves between Dan and I. We um we did all the management side
01:19:05
ourselves and a couple other people in Tamaru. So, yeah, we just we simply didn't push hard enough. Um but lesson
01:19:10
learned. Um full circle was we somehow got back there again. um we kept that through this gap in the middle count New
01:19:18
Zealand they kept supporting us and that's what kept us actually going and um kept our local team here and and
01:19:23
ultimately is what's kept us in the I guess given us the opportunity to to go back again this year because of our
01:19:29
loyalty to the brand and during those eight years I thought the loyalty meant nothing over there but as it's turned
01:19:35
out it has actually done a full circle we took eight years of waiting um could have been very easy to give up at any
01:19:40
point during those eight years but uh it goes to show that you just never ever give up and stay persistent.
01:19:46
>> When they came back after 8 years, was there any sort of like olive branch or
01:19:50
apology or anything or >> Well, it was completely different people now anyway, so you're dealing with
01:19:54
different people, different management. Um, from my side, it was a a real pinch yourself moment. Um, and it all actually
01:20:00
started from cuz last year one of the regular drivers, O Tanic, he announced his retirement. And I remember it was I
01:20:08
think September, October last year when it happened. And um, I was at home and I
01:20:12
was just about to go to bed and one of the new team managers here. We've been in contact with some other Hyundai
01:20:17
projects that we're doing. So, we've been in regular contact with the things that we're doing here. So, we know the
01:20:21
people and whatnot. And anyway, I just had this weird feeling when I went to bed. So, why don't I just send him an
01:20:27
email and just say, "Hey, look, I'm still driving. I'm still active. I still feel like I'm at the top of my game. Um,
01:20:31
look, if you're looking for a driver, put your hand up." And it's like absolute craziness cuz I mean, like, why
01:20:36
would we ever get considered to drive? Like, there's a lot of young drivers around now who, you know, you could
01:20:41
argue are probably faster. >> You go, why would they ever consider an old washed up person like me? But
01:20:45
anyway, I sent him an email going, well, initially I wasn't going to send it and
01:20:48
then a minute later go, what have I got to lose? And I just I just knew the regret would be too big if I didn't do
01:20:54
it. Um for me, a little saying I always go by is if you're worried about the price of winning too high, wait until
01:20:59
you get the bill from regret. >> Um and for me it was about I don't want to regret this. So I sent an email. The
01:21:05
next morning I wake up and the email reply was uh yes, we could be interested. Um we might be able to offer
01:21:09
you three or four rallies. And I'm like what? I was expecting a reply like okay thanks. Yep. We'll keep in touch or
01:21:15
whatnot. And nothing ever happened. They actually get an email reply going oh yeah we could be interested. um are you
01:21:20
interested in doing these rallies which actually in that it said Monte Carlo. So
01:21:24
at the time of shock of the email my heart actually also sunk because I I saw the word Monte Carlo there as well. So
01:21:30
um yeah I did I did contemplate not accepting the offer simply because of the Monte Carlo thing but I knew I just
01:21:36
had to suck it up and take it on. >> God there's so many good lessons in that. Like just send the [ __ ] email
01:21:43
>> just do it. >> Just do it. You got what do you got to lose? You got absolutely nothing to
01:21:46
lose. Um, >> worst case scenario, you would have got you would have got no reply.
01:21:49
>> Yep. I think especially in our sport and when you're dealing with sponsors and
01:21:53
that, we often get the word no a lot more than what yes. So, but it makes the yes so much more, I guess, feel like
01:22:02
comfort. Like if you get one yes to 99 nos, that one yes feels like gold. Um, and more often not when you're working
01:22:07
with sponsors and you're trying to find funding, you're just always getting rejection and you're always getting no.
01:22:11
So, I think over time you become more accustomed to the rejection. Yeah. Um, but you just got to keep pushing through
01:22:16
that to to get the yes. >> Yeah. That's one thing I've I've discovered and this would be advice for
01:22:20
anyone. No loses its power after a while. Like you become you become I I don't know. You just it loses its fear.
01:22:28
>> Yep. Definitely. It can still hurt, but yeah, definitely loses. >> Well, when you realize like a a no or a
01:22:32
no thanks or a not right now is the worst case scenario, it's actually not that bad.
01:22:36
>> The worst thing I hate is when someone means no but they won't say it straight
01:22:40
up. >> Like I prefer things black and white. If it's no, no. Don't say maybe or oh yeah,
01:22:45
we'll consider that and come back to you when you know it's a no. Just say no. >> Yeah.
01:22:49
>> Just be upfront. >> So that whole um Hand thing, did did it change your relationship with loyalty?
01:22:57
Like did did you become more of a savage? >> No. No. To be honest, I was proud how we
01:23:03
stayed loyal to the brand. Um even through those eight years in between. Um, again, it it could have been easy to
01:23:08
go away and do something with another brand, but for me, I was proud of what we were representing with it and and the
01:23:14
work that we were doing and and the trust and the faith that people within Hyundai New Zealand were putting in me.
01:23:19
Um, so to be honest, I had no regrets. Um, while it didn't work out the way we wanted it to work out, I I can be proud
01:23:26
and I could sleep at night without thinking that we did anything dirty. We didn't go behind anyone's back. We
01:23:31
didn't do anything disloyal. And for me, that meant I could sleep at night. So that meant more to more to me than a
01:23:38
paycheck or a contract or or whatnot. >> Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. Like you're you're with yourself
01:23:44
24/7. Like there's there's no escaping. You you've got to when you have a shave and you look in the mirror in the
01:23:49
morning, like you've got to you've got to be comfortable with the person staring back at you.
01:23:52
>> Y avoidance. >> So you put a book out in 2019. I um I tried to find a copy of this book. I
01:23:58
couldn't couldn't get hold of a copy in time, so I haven't read it. Um but I've just read some bits and pieces online.
01:24:03
It sounds like as far as sports books go, it was um it was pretty open. >> It was open. Uh it was tamed back quite
01:24:09
a bit to be honest. The lawyers went through it and they ended up taking lots of words and things out of it just to
01:24:13
make sure nothing wrong with said, but um it was a full open story. Uh probably come a little bit early. Uh on
01:24:20
reflection, it probably wasn't the right timing. Um you know, emotions are pretty
01:24:25
raw, I guess, after what happened in 2018. But it was a full story. I always wanted to show showcase the story and
01:24:31
tell people the journey because a lot of people perceive that we'd come from a background cuz a lot of people in
01:24:37
motorsport particularly in Europe, you know, it comes from wealth. You know, it comes from wealthy families. They pay
01:24:41
for their kid to go through go-karting. They pay millions of dollars to give them the opportunity to race in support
01:24:46
categories or Formula 1 or whatever it might be. For us, it was never ever like that. We had to work like absolute tooth
01:24:52
and nail for every single single scent and dollar. We had so many people help us, support us. We were deeply in the
01:24:58
red at some point like we're six figures in the red. Um digging our hole so deep,
01:25:02
but just it was absolute passion and absolute I guess faith in what we believe we could achieve that got us
01:25:10
through it. And you know for me I really want to go out and tell that story which
01:25:13
is why we did the book to showcase to people not just in our sport but any sport that if you really believe in
01:25:18
something if you're really passionate about it if you're really persistent and not willing to give up that actually the
01:25:24
the old adage of anything being possible is actually true. Um but you know just to go out and tell that story and um
01:25:31
rather than this image that can be painted around things where a lot of people in especially in this country
01:25:35
we'll put two and two together and come up with five. So we wanted to put it straight of what you know what it
01:25:39
actually took to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So the book's called Driven. Came out 2019. So what's that? Seven years ago now. So
01:25:45
you're 31 at the time. So I suppose that's a snapshot of how you were feeling at that moment in time.
01:25:51
>> It was all accurate at the time. But time changes your perception and your thoughts on things.
01:25:56
>> Yeah. Well, I haven't actually read it for a while, so maybe I should or shouldn't I actually recall, but um uh
01:26:03
there's been a lot happened already in the last seven years to be fair. So um I feel like that was sort of chapter one
01:26:08
if anything. Was there any backlash at the time? Like, did you piss anyone off? >> Oh, probably maybe a little bit
01:26:15
personally. Um, because I I delved a little bit into some of the personal relationships I had that um affected
01:26:20
what I was doing, whether it be with my mother or partners at the time. So, it pissed a couple people off, but um at
01:26:27
the end of the day, it was it was a story and you had to tell parts of the story to make it all make sense. Um
01:26:32
because as I say, my personal life is my sport, so it all sort of interwined itself together. Also, it's it's your
01:26:38
it's your book, so it's your version of events. Yeah. Tell those people write your own [ __ ] book.
01:26:44
>> Maybe they will. I might not like it, though. So, >> if if you could um if you could
01:26:47
re-release it now with additional chapters, what do you think they would be? >> Oh, wow. There's been so much happened
01:26:53
again. Um >> yeah, it's it's actually really hard to put into words what it means to be back
01:27:00
in the World Championship because it was told to us to be impossible to do it once and to not only do it once, we now
01:27:06
done it twice. M >> um and I don't even know how we've really done it this time. We've gone
01:27:09
out, we've been completely persistent. Like I mean like to give some examples of that after 2018, you know, I don't
01:27:18
like blowing smoke, but you know, we're a driver that was achieving reasonably good things in the sport. We were
01:27:22
showing good promise. Um we maybe could have offered something to another team. So, but we didn't go home and sit on the
01:27:27
couch and wait for the phone to ring. It was never about just wait for the opportunity to come. We always had to go
01:27:31
look for the opportunity. So, we had to go, okay, how are we going to get back into the world championship? So we went
01:27:35
out 2019 and we actually tried to selfund our way back in. So Hyundai New Zealand actually gave us um special
01:27:41
permission to go out and rent a Ford. So it's very unique for one manufacturer to
01:27:46
go let you drive another manufacturer. But they did that. They gave us the blessing. We went out we spent $300,000
01:27:53
uh no sorry $500,000. We went to Rally Finland and a privately funded world rally car. We were trying to make an
01:27:59
impression to try and show what that we're made of and that we still belong here. ended up rolling the car into a
01:28:04
bull in the pre-event test. Absolute bull um at height at 180 kilometers an hour rolling through the finished
01:28:09
forest. One of the biggest accidents we've had. Um didn't even get to start the rally beyond that. So we we didn't
01:28:16
get the money back either cuz we destroyed the car that we selfunded through a lot of people here in New
01:28:21
Zealand. Uh but then the team tried to help us cuz they felt bad for us to come back and do Rally Australia later that
01:28:27
year. So then we come back to Rally Australia. We had to find another $200 or $300,000 go to the rally and for the
01:28:32
first time in 70 years the rally was cancelled because of the bush fires in Australia. So we didn't even get to
01:28:36
start that one. So we tried twice failed twice. The following year in 2020 we then were still trying to negotiate with
01:28:42
Hyundai. So we had actually got presented to us a contract to be in the privateier Hyundai team for four rounds
01:28:47
of the world championship in 2020. Um that was going to be funded here through New Zealand. We got the contract uh on
01:28:54
the table the day before the lockdown for CO was announced. CO lockdown announced. Of course, the contract's
01:29:01
written up, ripped up in half because no one wants to go spend money on on a rally program. Beyond that, then I had
01:29:06
to make the decision cuz we had already starting to do what we're doing with our
01:29:09
New Zealand team. We're starting to build the world world's first electric rally car. And with the way the world
01:29:13
was going, I had to make a decision at that point. do I go back to Europe and try and continue chasing my dream but go
01:29:21
over there and try and create an opportunity with an unknowing whether you could could open a door or not but
01:29:25
by doing that I was turning my back on on our own team because obviously at that time we had the lottery system so
01:29:30
once you left you had no idea if you can get back again and or do I stay with my
01:29:34
team and the loyalty of our Hyundai New Zealand partnership um keep building what we're building our own team take on
01:29:39
the world ourselves um build this first world's electric rally car and in the end I decided to go with that decision
01:29:46
because I was happy doing what I was doing. I really enjoyed doing it with our own team. Um it was a controllable
01:29:52
that I could control. I had no idea what was going to happen if we went back to Europe and and that was probably at the
01:29:55
point where where I turned my back on the WRC in 2020 um to to stick by our own team and but still didn't give up
01:30:02
because then beyond once the co stuff all um quietened down, we went back and did the European Championship two years
01:30:07
in a row. We selfunded that. Um that was still all about keeping ourselves over there, keeping ourselves on the radar.
01:30:12
Um keeping myself match fit and competitive, but never did I think it would lead back to being back on the
01:30:18
world rally car again at my age. So um >> yeah, it's pretty and then the then be
01:30:23
back on a podium again as well. Um 8 years after our last podium um yeah, again I actually knew it meant something
01:30:29
because dad sent me a text on the Sunday night at Croatia going something along along the lines of you're an absolute
01:30:36
legend. You don't know how much this means. I've got tears in my eyes. Blah. And again, this is like dad doesn't show
01:30:42
emotions. And initially, I thought, is he on the beers or something? I mean, >> someone's hacked his phone.
01:30:48
>> It's like 2:00 a.m. in the morning in New Zealand on a on a Monday morning. It's like surely. So, um so that's when
01:30:53
you knew, okay, maybe this this is this is pretty cool that we've actually gone back and we've done something that we
01:30:57
didn't think would happen again. >> That is, man, I've got goosebumps. I I think the um the big thing for me in
01:31:03
this podcast today is just that um the hard work never stops. So you think you you know you you have
01:31:09
this dream, you do the fundraising in Geraldine, you know, you you get to these levels and then suddenly you get
01:31:15
to this level where we see you on the we see you on the news or we see you in the
01:31:18
the Herald. Um we see you with these uh your big deals and whatnot and you think
01:31:23
the hard work stops, but it just feels like you're constantly hustling. >> H never stops. Um and and that's that's
01:31:30
where a lot of this false interpretation or image comes from. Um, and I think social media doesn't help in in this day
01:31:36
and age as well where where people will judge or or come up with their own conclusion, but more often than not,
01:31:40
it's never than what you never what you think or perceive on the outside. Um, like I'm incredibly fortunate to live
01:31:47
the life I've done and achieve the things we've done and and do what we do. And I've got some amazing people around
01:31:51
us now and particularly like with what we're doing here in New Zealand with our own team. And but it's all built around,
01:31:56
you know, hard work, persistence, and I I guess the core of it for me actually and it goes back to what I was saying is
01:32:03
it's not just a sport. It's not just a hobby. This is my life. So I don't see it, you know, the sacrifices been
01:32:08
absolute everything. I mean, like there's been no social life throughout my whole life. There's been no real
01:32:13
family time. There's been no real friends. Um, even now my friendship circle is very very small because you're
01:32:19
just always isolating yourself and you're just working on what you want to do. But I don't see it as a sacrifice
01:32:24
because it's what I love. It's what I do. Um, I get my self-satisfaction and help and and happiness out of achieving
01:32:31
what I do with my sport. So that's why it's so much bigger than what people perceive it is. And and then when people
01:32:37
do want to attack on it or have the keyboard warriors or whatnot, that's why it is so much more personal because um
01:32:43
because you have given it so much and you have put so much into it that no one will ever realize that um that chubby
01:32:51
15-year-old kid, what did he think, you know, this would be like? Did he think did he think you'd just be turning up
01:32:58
doing the driving and have a whole team of people doing everything about you? I think that 15year-old had no idea what
01:33:04
was ahead of him and and what hard work was going to be involved and um I think even back then he didn't really
01:33:09
understand fully what was entailed to one get to the top of the sport and what it took to stay at the top of the sport.
01:33:16
So you obviously watched it online or on TV and whatnot and inspired to be there
01:33:20
but you didn't really know how to join the dots between where you were and how to get there. So, um, yeah. So, you're
01:33:25
probably a little bit naive to it all at that age. >> If if you knew then what you know now
01:33:29
and know that it's like hard work and it's relentless and it never stops. Would you have chased another dream
01:33:34
instead or do you still think you would have pursued? >> Oh, I think I would have pursued. I just
01:33:38
love driving race cars go fast. So, um >> um yeah, I don't know. I I love doing things differently. I love I hate the
01:33:45
status quo. >> I couldn't work a normal 9 toive job. Um actually, I had a little moment the
01:33:51
other day cuz some you always get that question. what would you be if you're not a rally driver? And for me, it's
01:33:55
like there's never been another option. I've never thought about it. So, there is no other thing. But, um, when we were
01:34:00
in Croatia the other day there, there was these fighter jets going over over over the head. And I thought, actually,
01:34:05
that'd be quite cool flying one cuz again, you're on your own. You're doing something that's completely different to
01:34:10
anyone else. You're going fast. So, it was always about doing something that's a little bit different.
01:34:15
>> So, when it have you been Yeah. Have you got a nest egg? Have you put some money
01:34:18
away or anything? It seems like you're you're invest you're pumping so much money into this um into this dream of
01:34:24
yours. Um yeah, are you going to have some stuff to show for it at the end of the day?
01:34:27
>> Uh at the moment, no. Um despite what a lot of people think. Uh I don't own a
01:34:32
house. Um uh we're very lucky actually. We were able to bring back our first winning uh
01:34:38
the the car that we won the the World Rally in Argentina. Um so that was a very expensive car to bring back to New
01:34:43
Zealand, which we're very fortunate some people helped us for. Um, at the time I
01:34:47
had a I had a property uh a piece of land. I ended up selling the land to be able to afford to bring this car back
01:34:53
cuz I figured the car's got memories attached to it. Like everyone else will do the opposite. They'll sell the
01:34:57
collectibles so they can go buy a house or land or whatnot. But I figured you can uh you can live in a car, but you
01:35:02
can't race a piece of land. Um, but yeah, like it's I I do I put everything into the sport. I put everything into
01:35:10
our business. We're trying to build a business now around the sport so we can grow our team. You know, my big vision
01:35:15
now is to have a New Zealand winning world championship rally team. So, I want to have our own team take on the
01:35:19
world and do it the Kiwi way. A bit like what team New Zealand do in yaching. That's that's my vision now. So, right
01:35:25
now, I put every every cent and dollar into that. Um yeah, as say I'm I'm fortunate to live the life I live, but
01:35:31
at the end of the day, I live in a a one-bedroom apartment which is at the workshop. So, I live at the workshop
01:35:36
still. Um I don't have a home um as such. And but I love doing what I do. I got no regrets. So, it's a very unique
01:35:43
lifestyle that I live. I think I was at home for 50 nights last year or something. Um, the worst thing about it
01:35:48
all is I got a cat that lives at home and he's he's pretty gutted that I'm not around much. So, uh, so he's he's he's a
01:35:53
man of the house when I'm not around. >> Who who who's doing the cat sitting? >> Well, he's got a robot feeder, uh,
01:35:59
automatic toilet, everything. And because my apartment's at the workshop, we've got eight guys that work at the
01:36:04
work there, so they keep an eye on him as well. But he's living the life. He he gets the air pump the heat pump left on
01:36:09
24/7 nightlight. like he'll be having cat parties and everything when I'm not around for sure. So,
01:36:14
>> and are you seeing anyone at the moment? >> H yeah, got a partner at the moment. So,
01:36:17
um she's from South America. So, >> she's actually over here at the moment. So, um she's a rally girl. So, um yeah,
01:36:24
I think it's important to share life with someone who gets you and understands your sport and because it is
01:36:29
such a sacrifice and such a um I guess so time heavy that you need to spend, you know, with people that understand
01:36:38
that if you like. Do you do you want to have kids or anything one day? >> I don't know. I'm basically a big kid at
01:36:45
the moment. Are I still? Um, >> yeah, maybe. I'd love the idea to the whole journey that dad dad and I had
01:36:52
together, you know, with the go-karts and as a kid and >> I guess tutoring your kid into something
01:36:58
bigger and better. Um, I'd love to have that opportunity. At the same time, it's
01:37:01
not something you can force. You know, you want to have it, you know, maybe have kids who have the same passion as
01:37:06
you and and you really want to, you know, use everything that I've learned over the time to help, you know,
01:37:11
flourish into them. Um, but it's not something I've given a lot of thought to. I guess I'm running out of time
01:37:16
maybe on some of that stuff. I don't know. Um, yeah, I guess I'm a little bit denial that I'm getting older. So,
01:37:22
>> mate, aren't we all >> Where do the years go? Um, what advice would you give uh to a kid in a small
01:37:29
town somewhere in New Zealand with a massive and what seems like an unrealistic dream?
01:37:34
>> Uh, don't let anyone judge you of what you what they think's realistic or not.
01:37:37
Um, if you truly believe in what you're doing and I think the biggest thing for me is is patience, passion, and
01:37:43
persistence. Um, they're the three things that you just >> just keep going, keep digging away. Um,
01:37:50
I think we live in a in a world now where people want instant gratification or instant success and it just doesn't
01:37:55
happen. Um, >> and the fact of the matter is if you can out uh outweight or outpatient other
01:38:01
people then then you know the goods that are going to be there at the end of it.
01:38:04
You know, you got to you got to keep battling through and there's often a lot more lows in life than highs. Um, so you
01:38:09
got to learn how to embrace those lows to motivate you to create more highs. Um, but yeah, I think just enjoy what
01:38:16
you do and be passionate about it and be patient are probably the biggest things.
01:38:20
>> Yeah, it's a really good lesson. Um, I've done over 300 episodes of this podcast now and one thing I've realized
01:38:25
is like hard work is the only cheat code there is. It's like any high performer,
01:38:30
the one thing the one thing they've all got in common is just like hard [ __ ] work.
01:38:34
>> Y or if it was easy it' be boring as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's that old saying if it was easy
01:38:38
everyone would be doing it. But um >> you do just have to go outside your comfort zone sometimes and and push
01:38:44
yourself and that's where you learn a lot about yourself as well of of that you're often a lot stronger than what
01:38:49
you think you are. >> There's a there's a saying I'll probably botch it up but it's something like um
01:38:53
the best version of yourself is on the opposite side of the hard work that you're putting off doing.
01:38:58
>> Y >> um yeah and I think that's true with a lot of things. It's definitely true with
01:39:01
what you were talking about before about going back to Monte Carlo this year. >> Yep. Yeah. I didn't Yeah. You learn a
01:39:08
lot about yourself, putting yourself in uncomfortable positions, I think. So, um, I've learned a lot about myself
01:39:11
already this year. So, >> um, yeah. Onwards and upwards. >> Have you? Yeah. Yeah. What are the big
01:39:16
lessons about yourself this year? >> It's It's cool. It's cool to I think it's really cool and refreshing to know
01:39:23
that at 38, you're still learning things about yourself. >> Definitely still learning. Um, you know,
01:39:28
like the world of business is still new to me and obviously we we've got the business and, you know, how you look
01:39:33
after people around you and build relationships with people. Um I I guess in any professional sport is it is a
01:39:41
very selfish environment that you put yourself in because you do have to put yourself first. You you know when you're
01:39:47
growing up you have to put your training first. You have to miss you know family
01:39:50
events or functions or you know you have to put it first if you're going to put the sacrifice if if it's going to be
01:39:56
worth it. So you you become quite selfish in some respects and I think as you get older now you start to learn
01:40:02
you've actually got to roll that back a little bit. you've actually got to become less selfish and actually realize
01:40:06
that the people around you have actually also got feelings. They've also got things that they do or don't like. And
01:40:11
and um I've always been a big person of put other people's I guess happiness before my own. And I measure my
01:40:18
happiness based off of people around me. um which is probably a bad way to look at it, but um but yeah, I think it's a
01:40:25
big thing for me is about trying to embrace more other people's emotions now and um and broaden my horizons above or
01:40:32
beyond just my my own feelings. >> Who knows the real you, >> John? Your dad, your partner?
01:40:40
>> I'd probably say no one. I'd actually even go to the extent of saying no one really knows because I I don't really
01:40:46
open up or talk about stuff a lot. So, I say dad and I, it's one of those relationships where you sort of just
01:40:53
know what's going on without talking. It's like he probably >> most southern thing ever.
01:40:57
>> He probably knows how I feel and we don't talk. He just look or he knows the situation, what's going on. He just
01:41:02
knows how I feel or knows what's going on. So, you don't say anything. Um, and yeah, John and I's relationship probably
01:41:07
more professional than personal. Um, so yeah, not a lot of people. So, >> it's interesting because you've been
01:41:13
really good and open at talking about stuff today and we've talked about some crunchy stuff. Yeah, I think I like I
01:41:18
think I'm realizing to try and use more opportunities to be a little bit more open because
01:41:24
I come across so many people nowadays that they go through the same stuff um or the same challenges in life whether
01:41:30
it be personal sports um professional whatever it may be but there's a lot of lessons I've learned that I've feel that
01:41:36
could help other people and go actually yeah I've been there as well and they go
01:41:39
oh really I thought no you can't have done that or achieved because you've been here it's like yeah we've been
01:41:43
through the same process you've you've encountered the same thing before and the lessons that you've learned through
01:41:48
that by being a little bit open could help someone else maybe or um also I think I get a little bit tired here in
01:41:54
New Zealand. It sort of grates me sometimes of the tall poppy syndrome and how people perceive that everything's
01:41:59
come easy and um you've just had everything handed to you in the plate or you've come from a wealthy background
01:42:04
and it's trying to I guess spread that story a little bit to go well no it's not like that at all and um why cut us
01:42:11
down at the ankles where we're just trying to work hard and do something that we love just like what anyone else
01:42:15
is doing. So, um, yeah, just trying to, I guess, spread the story a little bit more more, I guess.
01:42:22
>> Yeah. Other people have no idea about someone else's journey. >> Yeah. >> You have no [ __ ] clue.
01:42:27
>> I'm a big person for stay in your own lane. >> Like, I don't know your someone else. I
01:42:32
don't know your journey or your story, so I'm not going to judge you. So, why judge me? Um, but we live in a world
01:42:37
nowadays with social media where it's just so easy for people to judge. And >> I think people don't realize just
01:42:42
actually how much it hurts or how much effect that someone's words on a keyboard can actually affect someone.
01:42:48
You see it in cyber bullying. You see so many people go through it and it's it's
01:42:52
such a massive problem. Um social media is like a double-edged sword. Like it's a positive. Like we need it from our
01:42:58
side for sports and marketing and everything, but it's got so many downsides as well to the point where I
01:43:02
actually deleted all my personal stuff. I actually don't I don't want social media in my personal life. Um but
01:43:07
obviously you got to have it on the professional side. So >> yeah, when yeah, some some stuff you
01:43:12
read online, it's just it's just awful. Um but I remind myself that um I think of say the 10 or 15 people closest to
01:43:18
me, you know, family, close friends in a circle. And would any of those people ever go online and write a mean comment
01:43:25
about someone they don't know? And the answer is hell no. So who are these people?
01:43:30
>> Like it's not normal, eh? >> No. People are pretty tough when they get behind a keyboard. So um
01:43:34
>> yeah, it's a it's an interesting life that we society we live in nowadays. And
01:43:37
it's must be so hard for young people like young people are growing up around this and um they don't know the rights
01:43:42
or wrongs and and they have to deal with it on a daily daily process. >> Yeah. What is the biggest misconception
01:43:47
people have about Hayden pattern? Is it just that you come from money? >> Oh >> well you had it easy.
01:43:55
>> No I think within the sport I think a lot of people know the journey and that.
01:43:58
Um I think a lot of people think it's easy. Um, there's a I had a at a a dinner with some some
01:44:08
sponsor guests a few weeks ago, a couple weeks ago and and I had three people in
01:44:12
one night ask me and one person in particular asked me, "Oh, so you you must have brought your dad and your
01:44:18
parents a house in that now." I'm like, "What?" He goes, "Oh, no. You you must be you must be a millionaire. You must
01:44:24
you're on the news all the time. You have all this money. So, you must you must be looking after your family." I'm
01:44:28
like, "Uh, no. we don't get paid to do what we do. There's this this big misconception around that now you're
01:44:35
just living the life and you're just swimming in it and whatnot. M um and I guess that's normal. You can't change
01:44:42
people's perception on things, but yeah, I don't know what the I don't know what
01:44:47
the full answer to your question is, but um >> yeah, I guess I I think maybe I get
01:44:52
perceived the wrong way sometimes because I am such a massive introvert that I do like stay in in my own little
01:44:59
bubble sometimes and that can be often seen maybe sometimes as arrogant or >> aloof or rude or
01:45:05
>> Yep. Um, I do walk around with my head down sometimes and that's more about just I guess trying to avoid situations.
01:45:11
So, um, yeah, there's definitely an element of shyness, introvertness, which I don't like, but it's just me. It's
01:45:17
just I'm naturally like that and it can be mispersceived I guess sometimes. >> It does seem unfair to me that uh you
01:45:24
haven't become like wealthy from the sport. Yeah. You know, like you're doing it at the top level, one of the best in
01:45:28
the world, >> but it's not about money for me. For me, I know that for me it's about the
01:45:32
memories and the stories like I get to live and do something I absolutely love and that's why actually
01:45:38
>> uh we've got a trophy room at home there and some people are surprised and like
01:45:41
in our sport there's no prize money. Um so therefore it's all about the trophies
01:45:44
and some of our trophies they're as good as a doors stop. It's a piece of wood or
01:45:49
they're pretty sentimental value. >> They're pretty pointless. But for me every single trophy in that room has got
01:45:54
a story like right back to 90 I think the first one I got in my go-kart's 1994. I can remember everyone. Like I go look
01:46:02
at it and I go, "Oh yes, I remember that rally. I remember the story of what what
01:46:05
it took to get there." And so the memory attached to every single one of those trophies is worth more than any money or
01:46:10
or paycheck or anything. So for me, I just love doing and that I get to do what I do. And um we've had so many
01:46:16
people put money to do what we do. It's not a cheap sport. So there's been millions and millions and millions of
01:46:21
dollars raised over a number of years to allow us to do what we do. And I'm just
01:46:24
so fortunate that so many people have allowed us to to I guess let me live my dream. Oh yeah. I I mean and you're
01:46:30
you're by no means like a special case as well. Like yeah, there's the Scott Dixons, the Liam Lawson's, uh the Liam
01:46:37
SKS now who's an up and cominging driver. Um yeah, if it's not for the help of, you know, people like um Tony
01:46:42
Quinn or the Gild Traps or, you know, insert name here like it just wouldn't be possible for, you know, you guys to
01:46:50
have a crack at your dreams. >> We're so lucky in New Zealand there is so many people willing to get behind it.
01:46:54
you think of what New Zealand achieves now on on a global motorsport scale in terms of such a for a sport that's so
01:47:00
financially demanding yet we have so many Kiwi drivers competing at at an elite level um from a from a small
01:47:07
economy just goes to show the people who actually get behind are really backing it and
01:47:11
>> um you know we're all very lucky. >> Yeah, it's incredible. Are you happy? When when have you been your happiest?
01:47:18
>> When I win. Seems like you we established this earlier. You don't really celebrate the
01:47:24
wins. You just uh tick and on to the next one. >> Well, I have a little I have a little
01:47:28
moment internally where you like feel proud and and that sense of relief. For me, that's happiness. I don't
01:47:34
necessarily show it very well, though. But um yeah, when I win, >> you said the word relief there. I I
01:47:41
think I'm probably the same. Like when I win something, it's kind of just relief
01:47:43
that I didn't lose. >> Yep. 100%. >> Rather than pure joy of winning, which I don't know if that's a great space to be
01:47:49
playing in. I don't know. >> Yeah. But what's right or wrong? For me, I embrace it now because I just know
01:47:55
that's me. And um I don't I don't think that it's right or wrong. I just go that's me. Um
01:48:01
>> yeah, to be honest, when I >> after you win something, the the first thing I actually want to do is I just
01:48:07
want to go back to the hotel room >> and catch up on the emails and and do the social media stuff and make sure
01:48:13
you're all up to date and then just sit there and just be on my own. That's actually where I'm actually most happy.
01:48:17
As sad as that might sound, I don't want to go to the club and drink lots of wine
01:48:22
and shout and talk [ __ ] and no one understands each other past midnight and then you feel like complete like rubbish
01:48:28
the next day. I just want to just go be my own little bubble and just feel that sense of self self- accomplishment and
01:48:35
carry on my life. >> And what and what like watch some Netflix or >> Well, nowadays it's doom scrolling,
01:48:41
isn't it? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> The attention span's probably not big
01:48:45
enough now for Netflix. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Um, what are your best and
01:48:49
worst habits? >> Well, apparently my worst is show my nails, isn't it? >> I don't know. There might be something
01:48:56
worse. >> Well, I think that's pretty bad. >> Yeah. >> My girlfriend tells me it's pretty bad
01:49:00
anyway. >> It's quite It's quite funny cuz I'm I'm 53 now. Yeah. I still bite my nails. Not
01:49:04
>> that makes you feel better. >> You do. But um you just think it's a kid thing that you're going to outgrow.
01:49:09
>> Yeah. Obviously not. So um best and worst habits. uh best habits for me I think is um
01:49:19
not not resting on your laurels. So always trying to improve myself. So no matter even if you've had the perfect
01:49:25
rally and the perfect result, it's about how do I get better or how improve. So I
01:49:30
see that as a positive that I'm always trying to look for the next edge or the next advantage. Um which is important in
01:49:35
sport. >> Yeah. Downside is um probably too self-critical. I'm just which is probably the offset of what I just said.
01:49:43
So there is a positive and a negative to that. So um yeah, probably probably dwell on the on the lows maybe too much
01:49:50
or the negatives. Um and yeah, probably too self-critical. >> What are you most afraid of?
01:49:58
>> Losing. >> That's easy. Um losing in life, losing in sport, losing friends, losing just losing in
01:50:09
general I think I think is a pretty common thing for me. So >> regrets, >> I'd actually say no regrets. Um, yeah,
01:50:19
some things haven't worked out. And it's interesting when if you had a crystal ball, you go, "Okay, if I knew what was
01:50:24
going to happen, would you may have done some things differently, but based off what I knew at the time and and the
01:50:30
situations that you're in, I have no regrets on how I dealt with anything." um in terms of you know when we lost our
01:50:35
contract the decisions we've made of recent with WC um you know some relationships with you know with the
01:50:42
co-driver stuff or what happened based off the information I had at the time and and what was going on no regrets.
01:50:49
>> It's quite funny. I had um you know Tony Quinn pretty well. Y >> I had um him on on the podcast earlier
01:50:54
this week and I asked him that question. He said the same thing and then he so I
01:50:58
don't I don't know what his net worth is. He must be close to being a billionaire though, right? Um, and he
01:51:02
said he meets some people and they say to him, "No, I've got no regrets. I wouldn't do anything differently." And
01:51:05
he goes, "Fuck if I do your life, I'd do a lot differently." >> Well, at least he's honest about it.
01:51:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, what about legacy? Is that something you think about? >> Yeah. I I I want to leave a legacy in
01:51:16
the sport. Um, >> I want to grow the sport. Um, I think there's so many opportunities in our
01:51:21
sport and um, not only on the sporting side, but our sport actually has a platform to help uh, I guess general
01:51:28
road users in terms of trying to make the roads a safer place. Um, at the end of the day, there's too many people that
01:51:33
get killed on the roads. Um, in terms of the road toll, but our sport is actually
01:51:37
a platform where people can actually learn to drive and learn the basics of car control. As I say, you can start in
01:51:41
a motorsport when you're 12 years old. You can start with a road car. You can have fun. You can take the boy racing
01:51:46
away from the streets. you can put it in a controlled environment. So, our sport,
01:51:50
while it has the sporting benefits of trying to push people forward and be elite athletes or um or just be a
01:51:56
profession, whatever they enjoy doing, it also has the offset that it can actually help society in terms of of
01:52:01
safety. So, I want our sport to be bigger. Um I think rallying in New Zealand is is not at a level where it
01:52:08
could be or should be. Um I want to see it grow bigger. Um back in the days of of Possum, we obviously regularly had
01:52:14
the World Championship rally here. So I think the profile of sport used to be bigger when WRC was was here every year.
01:52:19
Now like in my career I've only done WC Rally New Zealand I think twice. So it hasn't been the rally hasn't been around
01:52:26
a lot during my time. So it'd be great to have WRC back here again in the future because then that helps the next
01:52:31
generation, it helps the sports um you know helps so much the bigger picture. Um, and yeah, I want to leave a legacy
01:52:38
that is not only about results and what we've achieved, but just trying to get more people involved and and grow the
01:52:45
sport in general. So, um, bit by bit trying to chip away with it. And we're doing these young driver programs at the
01:52:50
moment with trying to get some school kids involved in the sport and getting started because a lot of people don't
01:52:55
know how to start. Like it is as simple as joining your local rugby club, but if
01:52:58
you go to a school, most people wouldn't even know that you can start when you're
01:53:01
12-y old. So, we're going to the schools now going, "Hey, look, do you know that
01:53:04
you can start in motorsport? you can join your local car club. Um it's as easy as a $20 entry fee. And most of
01:53:09
them go, "Oh, wow. I didn't know that." And if you tell tell a 12, 13, 14y old to go, "Hey, look, you can go race a car
01:53:14
now." Most of them got to put their hands up. So, just trying to create those opportunities and and try and make
01:53:18
people more aware of of the of the sport and what we do. >> It's amazing that occupational safety
01:53:22
and health haven't got their hands on that yet. >> Let's not go planting any seeds here.
01:53:28
>> Um Yeah. What about how would you like to be remembered in the in the sport for
01:53:31
what you've done? Uh I think just trying to go about things in a loyal and humble way. Um for
01:53:41
me, you know, I like to do things in a quiet manner and and to be humble about it. Um and appreciate that many people
01:53:48
like it's not just about me as a driver. It's about many people around me like from your team, your co-driver, your
01:53:53
family that make it all possible. Um so yeah a little bit of a that sort of go-lucky happy way of doing things like
01:54:00
Pawsome left a legacy in the sport because he was that that happy person um that everyone inspired to be like
01:54:06
everyone wanted to be like Pawsome. Everyone wanted to talk to Pawsum. Um as I say my my personality is a little bit
01:54:12
different. Um so the way I do things is a little bit different but >> I just want to make sure we raise the
01:54:17
bar in terms of what what is possible and what you can achieve and >> that the sky is um is a limit really. So
01:54:24
just dream big and go after it. >> Your dad must be so proud of you. Uh like >> don't know
01:54:33
the the I mean the you the work you put in and uh you know early on and um you know the investments paid off. Um from
01:54:40
what I can gather from this chat you you guys aren't great at having these conversations um with each other. But if
01:54:46
he listens to this podcast or watches this podcast like what would you like to say to him?
01:54:51
Oh, like at the end of the day, we've been on this journey together. This has been more than just me driving a rally
01:54:56
car. Um, like dad's the first person I ring when everything's going good or bad. Even to this day, he's the first
01:55:03
every couple days he'll be on the phone about something that's going on. >> And even though like even now like I may
01:55:10
know what the right decision is or I know what to do, I still won't make the decision until I've r him. And and
01:55:16
having that reassurance for him of going, "Oh yeah, I agree with you." just gives me that reassurance and so even
01:55:21
now it's a backs stop that I don't necessarily need but it's just natural for me. So, you know, it's hard to put
01:55:28
into words really just what we've done together because I think between the two of us obviously it's a much bigger group
01:55:34
of people as well but you know ultimately the two of us have what led this dream and we did something that was
01:55:40
impossible and he's taught me to believe in in myself and and he's put a lot of faith in me, a lot of
01:55:46
patience in me. Um, I put him through the ringer as a teenager. Um, but I guess as a parent, he he just always
01:55:53
stuck by my side and helped me. And um, I'm forever going to be grateful cuz he's just given me so many opportunities
01:55:58
to live this life that I got now. And hopefully I'm only getting started. Um, hopefully there's another 38 years ahead
01:56:04
yet. So um, yeah, as you can see, I don't really know how to put in the words either, so I'm the same as him.
01:56:09
But um, I think >> Yeah. >> No, that's beautiful. I thought I thought those words were great. Did you
01:56:14
pay him back the money you stole for the Tim Tams? >> I probably should. And oh by
01:56:21
>> the interest on that now is probably pretty high. >> Are you proud of yourself?
01:56:25
>> Yeah, I'm I'm pretty proud of like I fell short. The ultimate goal was to be a world rally champion. Um fell short on
01:56:32
that goal. Um so a little bit a little bit gutted in that respect, but proud of what we've been able to achieve. Um, I'm
01:56:39
proud that I haven't turned my back on the sport because it would have been very easy to put up with the white flag
01:56:43
in so many different times throughout my career and even over these last eight years and and just go on and go, look,
01:56:49
you know, you could you could take the approach the glass half empty approach, go, the world's against me. Um, there's
01:56:55
no opportunities coming out of this. Um, it's cost me a lot of money. I'm I'm driving myself into the ground. What you
01:57:01
know, you get the keyboard warriors that that add on top of that and you go, what's the point? Um I think but just
01:57:07
proud of myself that then I just stuck at it because at the end of the day this is what I enjoy and I just got to
01:57:11
remember why I get in a car and put on a helmet and and get in into my own little
01:57:15
world and um and yeah I'm pretty amazed that we're just as I say back in the WC again cuz I just never would have dreamt
01:57:23
it to say do it once let alone twice. >> You if you just stay the course you never know what the future's going to
01:57:29
bring eh. >> Yep. makes it scary what the next eight years got then because >> I didn't expect this course. So I hate
01:57:36
to know what the next course is going to have. >> Yeah. Well, this has been a great
01:57:39
podcast. I'm I'm bloody proud of you. This has been really great. Is this is this this is the first time we've met.
01:57:45
Is this how you expected the podcast to go? What were you expecting? >> Uh I probably didn't expect to open up
01:57:50
quite this much. Um but as say I'm I'm an open book. It is what it is. Um >> no, it's it's been cool actually. As I
01:57:58
say, I think you learn more about yourself even sometimes when you talk about it as well. So,
01:58:03
>> um, reflection can be good. >> Yeah. So, >> well, it's been it's been great and um I
01:58:08
I've found you to be incredibly like open and honest and vulnerable and it's been a great chat and you're a great New
01:58:13
Zealander. >> No. Well, thanks for your time anyway, so I appreciate it. >> Hayden Pattern, thank you so much.
01:58:17
>> No worries. Thank you. Heat. Hey, Heat.