00:00:00
Who is David DS? Ex comedian turned IT
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guy now bureaucrat and a bit of a cancer
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patient along the way just for good
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measure.
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>> Do you think you were going to die?
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There were definitely times where you go
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that might not end well.
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>> I made a touch of cancer documentary
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about selling the house and they
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literally sent me this email estimated
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price $1 million and we want it all up
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front. You can't sell the house. We
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could spend all of this money and then I
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could still die and then you'll spend
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the rest of your life broke and penalous
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with the kids. And she said that's not
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the worst case scenario. I'll spend the
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rest of my life wondering what might
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have been. What a moment in your
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marriage. That line in the documentary
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has set me off. Eight years of my life
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and we're down to the last few.
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>> Mate, I'm so glad you survived.
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>> David DS, welcome to my podcast. K. Nice
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to be here. Thank you. It's great to
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have you here. First, first question.
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Who is David DS?
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>> Well, if it was me, um, I guess what,
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how do I describe myself? Ex comedian
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turned uh, IT guy, now bureaucrat.
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That's probably it. And a bit of a
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cancer patient along the way, just for
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good measure. And an author
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>> and a board director. So so many so many
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hats. Why why ex comedian? What does
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that mean?
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>> Well, it's it's a safety net in case I'm
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not funny anymore. I know. I used to be
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a comedian many years ago. I dropped out
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of uni to become a comedian much my
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parents disgusted. And then uh and I did
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that for quite a few years. It was
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great. But then I had to get a serious
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job like you know to pay the bills and
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stuff. So I sort of stopped doing any
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kind of formal comedy. But people tell
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me that I still you know have a bit of
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that in me. So I yeah when I present and
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things like that I always say ex
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comedian in case people want to laugh.
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give them a permission cuz when was the
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last time you did like an actual what
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you'd call a standup routine?
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>> I did. It was not that long ago
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actually. I uh late last year so
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november I think it was and it was um
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for it was a a charity gig for the
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Malagan Institute. We'll talk about them
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later I'm sure. But I I roped in old
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friends Jeremy Corbett, Michelle Aort,
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um Emma Lang, John Bridges and I and uh
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we had this great night in down in
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Queenstown and Gibson Valley. had a
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really good night and it was that was
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classic old school standup you know
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people in front in a microphone standing
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in front of a crowd telling jokes
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basically so it was that was great fun
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but I hadn't before that hadn't done it
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for probably 20 years
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>> all all those names that you mentioned
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like New Zealand household names when it
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comes to comedy people that have devoted
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their life to it whereas you've gone off
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on a more corporate route
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>> did you did you notice a difference when
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you reunited are you like oh there's
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levels to the game and
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>> uh yeah John and I who haven't done it
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for a while and Emma a little bit but we
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John and I definitely were doing some of
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our old material from literally 25 30
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years ago. So, um, but you know, the
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stuff about fax machines and all those
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really those great gags, uh, it still
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makes sense. But no, Jeremy and
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Michelle, you know, they are
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professional comedians and so yeah, they
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are more match fit than we are. But we
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still had a great time and the crowd I
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think really liked it. Yeah. Nostalgia.
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>> Yeah, that's I mean it's there there's
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so many hats that you wear. It's been
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such a fascinating career or careers.
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Um, you see CEO of a thing called New
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Zealand Story as well. Yes.
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>> What's that?
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>> So that's a government agency. So we are
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um paid for by the government and our
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job is there's a about 15 of us. So
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we're a micro agency. Our job is
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basically telling the world about New
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Zealand in a way that helps them
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understand there's more than just
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mountains and rivers and lakes and
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beautiful environment. That's cool
00:03:07
stuff. Don't get me wrong. We we love
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that. But we want them to know that
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there's also great people, there's
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business, there's innovation, there's
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investment opportunities, all that sort
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of stuff. So it's basically growing New
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Zealand's uh international reputation.
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Where do you start? Yeah, you you start
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with the stories of New Zealand
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actually, like who we are and what we
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stand for in the world and our history.
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New Zealand's unique. We have uh we are
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the last place in the world where humans
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settled, for example. Many New
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Zealanders don't know the stories of our
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own of our own culture. And if you think
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about New Zealand being the youngest
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country in the world by definition, the
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sorts of people that came here, you
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know, had left something behind and they
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were looking for something better and
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they were adventurers and explorers and
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navigators, you know, the the early
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Polynesians who became Mari uh
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indigenous people and then the the the
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Europeans that came here were incredible
00:03:54
and that they left something behind that
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was pretty safe place to be because they
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were had that adventurous spirit. And if
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you kind of play that forward, you you
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find New Zealand is a place where, you
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know, people who think differently, we
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challenge authority. You know, we're
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quite self um self-reliant. We, you
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know, we innovate in a different way
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than the rest of the world. And that
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kind of explains a lot about New
00:04:13
Zealand's story. So when you start
00:04:14
talking about the stories of New
00:04:15
Zealand, first place in the world to
00:04:17
give women the vote, first place in the
00:04:18
world where there was a labor union, the
00:04:20
40-hour working week was created here,
00:04:22
ACC, bungee jumping, you know, like all
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these things actually the space industry
00:04:26
that we now have, all these things come
00:04:28
from this kind of the root of New
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Zealand. So we basically then tell that
00:04:31
story to the world and actually it
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resonates really well. people love
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hearing about.
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>> That's I've been doing this podcast four
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years now and that's what I found. You
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know, there's just so many New
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Zealanders out there like giving it a
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crack and doing really really well and
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thinking really big.
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>> It's really inspiring. Eh,
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>> it is. It is. And we, you know, the
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whole cliche punch above your weight,
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I've sort of banned that from use in my
00:04:51
organization, but but we definitely have
00:04:53
a disproportionate impact. New Zealand,
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you know, when we measure um perceptions
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of New Zealand globally, so that's one
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of the things we do, for example, is
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research. U when we measure that New
00:05:02
Zealand's always in the sort of top 10,
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top 20 countries, which is remarkable
00:05:05
given there are 193 countries. We're 5
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million people. We've got no right to be
00:05:10
in the top 10 or 20 of anything, but we
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are consistently every year on lots of
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different aspects and dimensions. So we
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I think Kiwis kind of forget how
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valuable that stuff is. And um certainly
00:05:21
in times like this and that you know we
00:05:23
haven't got the hard power, we don't
00:05:24
have a military, we don't have a big
00:05:25
financial base. Our soft power, our
00:05:27
relationships are the things that will
00:05:29
that we need to rely on
00:05:31
>> in terms of brand New Zealand. Uh what
00:05:33
are we getting very right and very wrong
00:05:35
as a country?
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>> Oo that's a good question. Very right is
00:05:39
going back to relying on the core values
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of who we are as people. You know um
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welcoming, caring, uh innovative,
00:05:46
trustworthy. So those are sort of the
00:05:48
core values of New Zealand. There's a
00:05:49
whole piece of work we did on that
00:05:50
around what are trying to define who are
00:05:52
the values what are the values of New
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Zealand that stuff works well where we
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get it wrong and we and I think we don't
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necessarily do it consciously but
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subconsciously is where we rely on kind
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of cliches and tropes you know so New
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Zealand is clean and green therefore the
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rest of the world you know must think we
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are well the reality is we're not as
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clean and green as we would like to be
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and relying on sort of sustainability or
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the perception of kind of um New
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Zealand's environmental safety or
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standards is a is a bit of a mistake for
00:06:19
us because a we need to lift our game
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and b uh it's a risky thing even if even
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if it were true uh you know you have one
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small food crisis or issue or or or
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something and suddenly your whole
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reputation is is broken. So definitely
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inside New Zealand story and that was
00:06:34
part of the reason we were created is to
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say actually our our image is too
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narrowly defined on one thing which is
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natural beauty and environmental kind of
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impact and the reality is we've got to
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be quite careful that that is not the
00:06:46
only strings we have to our boat. That's
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right. Because there's the whole 100%
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pure campaign, which leaves no margin of
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error.
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>> No, no, exactly. I often joke, I mean,
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it's still a good campaign and it does a
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good job for the tourism, but I say the
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problem with it is it's not 100% true.
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Um, and it's not 100% everything we do.
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So, like it's even if it were 100% true,
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it's not showing you innovation and
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investment and, you know, education
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opportunities. It's just showing you a
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beautiful mountain, which is great and
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that gets tourists here. So, it does a
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fantastic job from a tourism point of
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view, but is a bit lacking in other
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areas. Yeah. But if the uh if the
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campaign had have been like 85% pure
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news that would have felt like a poster
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in Murray Murray's office
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>> we make those sort of Yeah. We realize
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that quite often you can't say
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something's like 85 and a half% pure
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>> the other bit. Yeah. So now this um this
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chat today was um set up by um the how
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do you say Malahan Maligan
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>> Melan the Melan Institute. Yeah.
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>> Of which you're a trustee and an
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ambassador.
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>> That's right.
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>> What is the Melahan Institute? They uh
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so amazing. This is a classic Kiwi story
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of a a real treasure tonga for New
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Zealand that we New Zealanders don't
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always realize is there. So it's a cat
00:07:53
research institute or it's a a research
00:07:54
institute based in Wellington and they
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have about 150 odd staff some of the
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most uh incredible PhD level people who
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are looking at the human immune system
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and how the immune system operates. And
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they are literally a global leader in
00:08:09
this. You know, they're one of only half
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a dozen institutes like them around the
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world who do this kind of research
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looking at the immune system. And
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they've been around about 40 or 50
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years, maybe a bit longer. And for a
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long time, they were seen as a little
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bit of a weirdo organization. Look at
00:08:22
those guys. They're mucking around with
00:08:23
the immune system, but the real serious
00:08:24
work in and is working on drugs and you
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know, pharmaceutical discoveries. What's
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happened in the last sort of 10 or 20
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years has been this revolution in
00:08:32
healthcare. Realizing that the immune
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system is this amazing complicated and
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yet um sophisticated mechanism that that
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can save us from many things. 99.9999%
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of all the things that go wrong in your
00:08:43
body your body will take care of mainly
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through the immune system. So what the
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work they've been doing over many many
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years is to understand that better and
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uh they've got a particular program of
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work in cancer. They do lots of other
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stuff too like gut health and and things
00:08:56
like that. But um in cancer they they're
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using their human immune system to fight
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cancer. And I'm involved because eight
00:09:02
years ago I had the same sort of
00:09:04
treatment that they're pioneering as
00:09:05
well. But I had it in America. I had to
00:09:07
go a long long way to get it and spend a
00:09:09
lot of money to get it. Whereas right
00:09:10
here in Wellington, New Zealand, we're
00:09:12
we're creating our own version of the
00:09:13
same and one of only again half a dozen
00:09:15
institutes around the world that is able
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to do the sort of work they can do.
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>> Well, this is going to be a great chat.
00:09:19
So, we're going to get into the the KT
00:09:21
cell therapy and your trip to Boston. Um
00:09:24
the fund raise Oh, the fundraising
00:09:25
challenge. Go the distance. What is
00:09:27
that?
00:09:27
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Well, cuz we're
00:09:29
trying to get this Well, we're not
00:09:30
trying, we are getting this clinical
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trial. So, to back up a little bit, the
00:09:34
way that um drugs make their way into
00:09:36
market or medicines make their way into
00:09:37
the market is through, you know, quite a
00:09:39
considered system of clinical trials.
00:09:41
You don't just sort of create something
00:09:42
and stick it out there and hope it
00:09:43
works. You know, it's not like, you
00:09:44
know, software where I used to work,
00:09:46
spang it out there and hope it works.
00:09:48
Um, no, with medicine you have to go
00:09:49
through quite distinct clinical trials.
00:09:50
The the typically because New Zealand is
00:09:52
a consumer of international technology.
00:09:54
We're not usually a creator of medical
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um, uh, interventions. We normally just
00:09:59
get other people's clinical trial
00:10:01
results and go that's good enough for us
00:10:02
and we roll it out. In New Zealand,
00:10:03
we've had to create our own clinical
00:10:05
trial for our own uh, cartis cell
00:10:07
therapy, which we'll talk about that in
00:10:08
a minute. But that's an incredibly
00:10:10
expensive and difficult thing to do.
00:10:11
It's taking us millions and millions of
00:10:13
dollars. Uh, and so we've been raising
00:10:15
money um because the because the I
00:10:17
hadn't mentioned the Malagan Institute
00:10:18
is actually a charity. It's a it's
00:10:20
literally a you know it's classic New
00:10:22
Zealand thing again. We've got so many
00:10:23
of our amazing things are charities in
00:10:25
New Zealand um and rely on philanthropy
00:10:28
and donations to succeed. So this
00:10:30
clinical trial will cost us nearly $20
00:10:32
million and we've raised most of that
00:10:34
money but we're right down to the last
00:10:35
few million. Feels like it's been a long
00:10:38
time. Eight years of my life I've been
00:10:39
working on this. Um and we're down to
00:10:41
the last few. So we thought we would
00:10:43
instead of just doing what we have been
00:10:44
doing which is going to the way you
00:10:46
raise money is by the way you go to rich
00:10:47
people and ask them if they'll give you
00:10:48
money believe it or not it's not rocket
00:10:50
science but that has worked really well
00:10:52
up until now and we've and we've done
00:10:53
extremely well and there's been some
00:10:54
very generous people but we're down to
00:10:56
that last you know few million and we
00:10:57
need to get more people involved so
00:10:59
we've got this challenge called go the
00:11:01
distance and the and the concept there
00:11:03
is there are so many New Zealanders like
00:11:05
me who have to go overseas you know I
00:11:07
went to Boston 12 times over two years
00:11:09
for my medical treatment for my cancer I
00:11:12
know other patients even today still
00:11:14
going to China, to the UK, to Singapore,
00:11:16
America, having to spend a lot of money
00:11:18
and having to travel a long ways and uh
00:11:21
we're saying that if we need to go the
00:11:23
distance both to get this clinical trial
00:11:25
across the line, get the money in the
00:11:26
tin so that we can actually have this
00:11:28
treatment in the mainstream system in
00:11:29
New Zealand, but to stop those other
00:11:31
people having to go the distance that
00:11:32
they're going. So that's kind of the the
00:11:34
idea. So, for the month of April, I've
00:11:36
committed to walking 200 kilometers.
00:11:40
Um, which is why I walked here this
00:11:42
morning. I was just telling you I walked
00:11:43
for the fair. I've got to get my steps
00:11:44
in. Um, but we Yeah, lots of people
00:11:46
doing that. They're signing up. They're
00:11:48
being sponsored. Um, you know, it it's
00:11:50
just a way a it shows support for the
00:11:52
institution, but but it's good way for
00:11:53
people to have a bit of a competitive
00:11:55
streak, too. So, my team's doing better
00:11:57
than your team and we're raising more
00:11:58
money and stuff. So, we're hoping to
00:11:59
close that gap by going the distance.
00:12:02
you're still passionate about the cancer
00:12:03
stuff. Is it um I do go on about it? No.
00:12:07
It's a really important thing, but it'd
00:12:08
be easy for you to you find it
00:12:10
triggering or whatever and be it's part
00:12:11
of my life and I want to draw a line in
00:12:12
the sand and I've done my bit and move
00:12:14
on.
00:12:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:16
>> I think some people and I I completely I
00:12:18
have no problem with people that do want
00:12:19
to move on cuz that's fine. Um for me, I
00:12:22
there was a triggering moment for me. I
00:12:24
mean I I was diagnosed with cancer. I
00:12:26
went through the normal treatments and
00:12:27
it and and it was sort of I was a very
00:12:29
public about it. But I was writing a
00:12:30
column about it while I was had
00:12:32
treatment. But there was a point where I
00:12:34
realized we really needed help and it
00:12:36
and it it was such an important u moment
00:12:38
in our lives. Katherine and I realized
00:12:40
that to get on this clinical trial, we'd
00:12:42
been had this amazing opportunity to go
00:12:43
on a clinical trial in Boston. But it
00:12:46
but the quote was a million dollars. You
00:12:48
know, literally out of the blue, an
00:12:49
email comes in and goes, "Yeah, you're
00:12:51
on you can get on the trial, but a
00:12:52
million US dollars." And we we don't we
00:12:54
can't do that. Like we don't have the
00:12:55
money. We can't sell the house quick
00:12:57
enough. We were going to have to try and
00:12:58
sell our house. that wouldn't have got
00:12:59
the money, but it would have got some of
00:13:00
it. So, we just thought, how what are we
00:13:02
hell are we going to do? And so, so many
00:13:04
people helped us. You know, there was a
00:13:06
give a little campaign which was
00:13:08
incredible. It was humbling and, you
00:13:11
know, sort of cringeworthy, but at the
00:13:13
same time amazing that there's thousands
00:13:15
of people putting in their their little
00:13:17
bits of money and whatever to help.
00:13:19
>> So, that was incredible. Um, but then
00:13:21
there was other people who put on, you
00:13:22
know, benefit concert. my comedian mates
00:13:24
got together and did a concert and and I
00:13:26
just felt this huge sense of not
00:13:28
obligation that's the wrong word but
00:13:30
just wow look at the power of people
00:13:32
coming together for a cause and when I
00:13:35
came back from my treatment and I was
00:13:38
you know I was cured um it made me
00:13:41
realize I I have an ability to be able
00:13:43
to help other people even people I don't
00:13:45
even know so if I go out there and be
00:13:47
more visible and act as the ambassador
00:13:49
and uh help raise the money um and it
00:13:52
was amazing Because the first time they,
00:13:53
you know, the Malagan approached me, I
00:13:55
they flew me down to Wellington to show
00:13:57
me around and then they sort of
00:13:58
tentatively said, "We were wondering if
00:14:00
you might consider being the our
00:14:01
ambassador." And I went, "I'm in. What
00:14:03
does it mean?" And they went, "We're not
00:14:05
sure." And we went, "Okay, we'll work it
00:14:06
out as we go along." And what turns out
00:14:08
it means is helping them, you know,
00:14:09
spread the word and raise some money.
00:14:11
Um, and it's now 8 years later and yeah,
00:14:14
I'm just privileged to be able to do it
00:14:15
and be in a position where I, you know,
00:14:16
I can actually share my story and talk
00:14:19
to lots of people and Yeah. and and it's
00:14:21
it's resonating which is good.
00:14:24
>> We've been going almost quarter of an
00:14:25
hour. This is a great setup. It sort of
00:14:27
establishes um who we're dealing with
00:14:29
here. Yeah.
00:14:29
>> Um all right, let's go all the way back.
00:14:32
So you're from Wongui. I'm from Palmer
00:14:34
North.
00:14:34
>> Wow.
00:14:35
>> Yeah.
00:14:35
>> You hang on. I'm just trying to work out
00:14:37
your age now. What school did you go to?
00:14:38
>> Palmy boys.
00:14:39
>> Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. There you
00:14:40
go. Now I Wangui. I was born and bred to
00:14:43
two Irish immigrants.
00:14:44
>> Yeah.
00:14:45
>> Earliest memories?
00:14:46
>> Gosh, school? I loved school. I was it
00:14:48
was good. I went through the Catholic
00:14:50
system. So, you know, all the all of the
00:14:52
nuns and priests and stuff like that
00:14:53
were around and it was they were small
00:14:55
schools, but it was great. I I had a I
00:14:57
had a great bringing up very much
00:14:58
working-ass family. My father was a
00:15:00
painter and decorator. U my mother
00:15:02
didn't work when we were little. Um I've
00:15:04
got two older sisters and and a much
00:15:05
much younger brother. And uh yeah, we
00:15:07
always had a blessed childhood. And
00:15:09
we're growing up in an Irish family. You
00:15:11
know, my parents are very Irish in their
00:15:13
demeanor and their language and
00:15:15
everything, very eloquent and funny and
00:15:18
and you know, I was blessed to have
00:15:19
that. But then also going to school in a
00:15:21
place like Wongui had a large mai
00:15:22
population. You know, the school I was
00:15:24
at was for the 50% mild role. It was
00:15:27
just normal and I loved it. You know
00:15:28
that that's, you know, culture and
00:15:30
celebration and crack as they say in
00:15:33
Ireland. But um all very kind of for me
00:15:35
is a very different thing in what we're
00:15:37
doing now. Yeah. Yeah. We had to learn a
00:15:40
few of those things actually. Yes. My
00:15:41
parents had to adjust some of their
00:15:42
language. Yes. But it was wonderful. And
00:15:44
then Yeah. And then left to go to
00:15:46
Palmster North. Go to Yi.
00:15:47
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:49
>> Uh Yeah. What does it mean to you to
00:15:51
have Irish roots? Does it
00:15:53
>> Born in New Zealand?
00:15:54
>> Born in New Zealand. Yeah. Um but have
00:15:57
lived in Ireland. I went and traveled
00:15:58
there quite a lot. We've got lots of
00:15:59
family over there still. And Katherine,
00:16:02
my wife and I when we got married, we
00:16:03
went and lived in Ireland for a little
00:16:04
while just to sort of try it out. Um but
00:16:06
it is important. It's part of my
00:16:08
heritage. I love it. um the connection
00:16:10
into uh an older civilization, but
00:16:13
there's, as I say, there's such
00:16:14
similarities with the Irish culture and
00:16:16
New Zealand culture,
00:16:18
uh language, you know, celebration,
00:16:20
faro, family being important, all that
00:16:22
sort of stuff is really familiar to me.
00:16:23
So, yeah, I I enjoy it.
00:16:26
>> And I get invited to some great St.
00:16:27
Patrick's Day events.
00:16:30
>> My was there a moment early on where you
00:16:32
realized you were good at communicating
00:16:33
ideas?
00:16:34
>> Like, did your family like wheel you out
00:16:36
to tell jokes at functions? Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:38
It was almost literally. Yeah. When I
00:16:39
was at high school, me and my uh high
00:16:41
school mates, you know, in sort of
00:16:43
fourth form, fifth form, so what's that?
00:16:44
Year 10, 11. Um formed a little comedy
00:16:47
club, you know, it was um we were
00:16:50
probably terrible in retrospect, but we
00:16:52
kind of got people to come and watch us
00:16:53
do pretty much Montipython sketches and,
00:16:55
you know, other people's material. We
00:16:57
started writing a few things of our own,
00:16:59
but you know, through through high
00:17:00
school, we did that. We actually did
00:17:02
some sort of productions, you know, at
00:17:04
the local Amdram Theater type thing
00:17:06
where our group was called up the ante
00:17:08
and it was cool and and I learned a
00:17:10
little bit of stage craft and a little
00:17:12
bit of, you know, um, timing and
00:17:14
performance from that. So that was
00:17:16
probably it. And then I did, you know, I
00:17:18
used to do all the school speeches and
00:17:19
debates and things like that. So yeah, I
00:17:21
think maybe it's the um, you know, the
00:17:23
Blanny Stone type thing that comes
00:17:25
through with Irish people. We tend to
00:17:26
have a bit more of that eloquence
00:17:27
>> cuz in in terms of like a comedy pathway
00:17:29
back then in New Zealand there was
00:17:30
nothing really there would have been
00:17:32
probably similar age there was like mfen
00:17:34
Gansby Billy T James Jones James
00:17:36
>> and Funny Business they were like hugely
00:17:38
influential
00:17:39
>> Willie did a great
00:17:42
>> those guys and Dean and yeah and um and
00:17:44
Peter so they were great influence
00:17:45
literally the first sort of time
00:17:47
professional thing so we watched them on
00:17:49
TV like they were on when I was in the
00:17:50
sixth form seventh form whatever and I
00:17:52
remember they were coming to Wonganui to
00:17:54
do a like a gig and they were my heroes.
00:17:56
But I they were going to do it in the
00:17:58
local pub of course and I was 16 or 17.
00:18:01
And so we me and this comedy group that
00:18:03
I mentioned, my mates, convinced one of
00:18:05
our teachers, amazing guy, Father Tig,
00:18:07
um he snuck us in basically he went with
00:18:09
us so that we were at a chaperone and we
00:18:11
went to the pub and watched Funny
00:18:13
Business like live. Uh and it would have
00:18:16
been 1987 probably six. And um I
00:18:19
remember going up afterwards sort of
00:18:21
very shyly going to the stage and Willie
00:18:22
hates me telling the story now but and
00:18:24
just sort of you know trying to shake
00:18:25
Willy's hand and and say hello and he
00:18:28
was my idol and it's so funny cuz years
00:18:30
and years later now he's a very good
00:18:31
friend of mine very very close um and
00:18:33
you know we've been through a lot
00:18:34
together he and I but but back then it
00:18:36
was such a thing so there weren't too
00:18:38
many icons. There was all the British
00:18:40
comedy stuff as I say like you know the
00:18:42
Montipythons of the world but in New
00:18:44
Zealand it was a very nent industry. But
00:18:46
I was lucky because I landed in at a
00:18:48
very, you know, fertile time in New
00:18:51
Zealand comedy. That ne the next sort of
00:18:52
10 years was was a really interesting
00:18:54
time to be in comedy.
00:18:55
>> Defining. Yeah. Did you have um like uh
00:18:57
VHS's of like Richard Prior or Eden
00:19:00
Murphy or
00:19:01
>> did a little bit the American stuff? I
00:19:02
liked it. Wasn't as big a thing on me as
00:19:05
the as the um UK stuff. But
00:19:07
>> um no, there was definitely all of that.
00:19:09
Yeah, we were we were voraciously
00:19:11
consuming that and reading Viz magazine
00:19:13
and all that sort of stuff, you know,
00:19:14
just getting all these different inputs.
00:19:16
But Billy Billy T was a good one because
00:19:17
he was the first sort of real New
00:19:18
Zealand, you know, and Mfall Gatsby to a
00:19:21
degree. But, you know, Billy Tai guy
00:19:23
telling Marty jokes, which you know,
00:19:25
probably these days we'd all be
00:19:26
horrified about, but it was it was it
00:19:28
changed, you know, changed our
00:19:30
perception of, oh, you can actually do
00:19:31
this sort of stuff here. And we have got
00:19:32
a kind of a semi-indigenous, well, semi,
00:19:35
you know, New Zealand sense of humor. So
00:19:37
what did you want to be when you when
00:19:38
you grew up like through secondary
00:19:40
school what was your plan because that
00:19:42
difficult question
00:19:44
like like now now if you're if you're
00:19:46
that sort of age you can say you want to
00:19:47
become a content creator back back then
00:19:50
it was not even feasible to say you'd be
00:19:52
like a professional comedian
00:19:54
>> no literally it was a priest I was going
00:19:55
to be a priest up until right up this I
00:19:57
don't tell many people this cuz it
00:19:58
doesn't come up in conversation but I
00:19:59
went to a Catholic school very Catholic
00:20:01
Irish upbringing Catholic Catholic
00:20:02
Catholic some of the great influences on
00:20:04
my life some of the teachers I really
00:20:05
admired were were priests. And I I
00:20:08
thought, okay, I'm going to go into the
00:20:09
seminary. I'm going to finish school, go
00:20:11
into the Catholic seminary, become a
00:20:12
priest. Um, but again, the same father,
00:20:16
Tai, very amazing man. He said, that's
00:20:18
lovely. You know, we're having our fun
00:20:19
of, you know, end of year chat. That's
00:20:20
great. Maybe you should go to university
00:20:22
first, just for a year, and if you still
00:20:23
want to go into the priesthood, you
00:20:25
know, that that's a great idea. Well, he
00:20:27
was right. I went to university
00:20:29
discovered alcohol and women and and
00:20:31
other things freshmen don't mix that
00:20:34
well with no turning back after no it
00:20:37
was great it was a gift to me and he he
00:20:38
became a a great friend and sort of
00:20:40
married Katherine and I and baptized our
00:20:42
children all that sort of stuff so he
00:20:44
was he was an influence you know by
00:20:46
telling us not to do something which was
00:20:47
great yeah
00:20:48
>> so so you moved to Palmy after school um
00:20:50
you go to me studying for a BSE what's
00:20:53
that bach science
00:20:54
>> yeah yeah and uh back then it was
00:20:56
mathematics and and uh I did chemistry
00:20:58
and I jumped around topics cuz while at
00:21:01
school I was quite smart, you know, I
00:21:03
was the tallest dwarf basically cuz it
00:21:04
was I was the ducks of my school of
00:21:06
literally six kids in, you know, in year
00:21:08
13 or seventh form. So I thought I was
00:21:11
all, you know, wow, I'm so amazing. But
00:21:12
you get to university, you realize, no,
00:21:14
you're not. You're uh pretty average. Um
00:21:17
and I didn't and I discovered all these
00:21:18
other things that were much more
00:21:19
interesting than actually studying my
00:21:21
degree. So I sort of scraped by in my
00:21:24
first year um and kept changing topics
00:21:28
and you know it wasn't really committed
00:21:29
to um the academic life at that point
00:21:31
because there were so many other cool
00:21:32
things to do at university.
00:21:34
>> Who who were your mates then? Palms
00:21:36
North is a fertile ground for for comedy
00:21:38
and also for like commercial radio. Were
00:21:40
you were you were you there at the same
00:21:42
time as Steven Joyce who set up radio
00:21:43
messy or
00:21:44
>> just just clipped the end of his period
00:21:46
there. Um and I sort of knew of him
00:21:48
>> and Bernard Hickey who who's in the
00:21:50
media now. He was but yeah no Bernard's
00:21:53
uh
00:21:53
>> oh the financial guy financial guy yeah
00:21:55
yeah yeah he he was at radio massy
00:21:57
>> um so yeah it was it was futile as you
00:21:59
say and then there was 2xm which was
00:22:01
like a commercial station and Robert
00:22:02
Scott was there for example at that
00:22:04
point and um those guys and then my you
00:22:06
know the Jeremy and Nigel Corbett the
00:22:08
Corbett boys were there and John Bridges
00:22:10
and
00:22:11
>> Yatesy Paul Yates and a whole lot of
00:22:13
people that that became really good
00:22:15
friends of mine and are still many of
00:22:17
them still working in media and TV and
00:22:19
and you know have their careers have
00:22:20
just gone gone ahead. So yeah, that that
00:22:22
was the crowd I kind of landed into the
00:22:24
middle of and I was very lucky as I say
00:22:26
I was um I got there just at the point
00:22:27
where things were getting quite
00:22:29
interesting and uh I joined you know my
00:22:31
almost my first couple of months I
00:22:33
joined the Massie University Drama
00:22:34
Society MUDS um cuz they have an annual
00:22:38
review capping review so it's very
00:22:39
British again like that they call it
00:22:41
footlights in um Cambridge and it's the
00:22:43
they come together and they do sketch
00:22:44
comedy and it's all very you know
00:22:46
formulaic in some ways but Muds was
00:22:49
doing the same sort of thing so I joined
00:22:50
up and I I remember walking in, it was
00:22:52
probably one of the formative moments of
00:22:54
my life, walking into the sort of, you
00:22:55
know, lecture theater where they were
00:22:57
rehearsing and meeting all these people
00:22:59
who would now become my, you know, very
00:23:01
close friends 30, 40 years later.
00:23:03
>> Um, and yeah, they accepted me in and we
00:23:07
had a we had a wonderful time. So did um
00:23:09
did basically that was where I spent
00:23:11
most of my time was doing that kind of
00:23:12
work.
00:23:13
>> Did did it feel like feel like you'd
00:23:14
found your tribe like this is where I
00:23:16
belong. These are my people.
00:23:17
>> Yeah, definitely. There's definitely
00:23:18
that moment where you go, you know, they
00:23:20
got shared sense of humor but but
00:23:22
different and had slightly different
00:23:23
life experiences than me and and yeah,
00:23:25
you do I felt very lucky that you you've
00:23:27
got this this opportunity to meet people
00:23:29
that are like you and universities are
00:23:32
great hunting grounds and you know
00:23:33
you've got radio going on and I got
00:23:35
involved in the student newspaper and
00:23:36
then I became the treasurer of this of
00:23:38
the student association and you know I
00:23:40
just got involved in stuff. It was cool
00:23:42
>> cuz Steven so Steven just slightly older
00:23:44
than you. He looks very much older than
00:23:46
me. A Stephen if you're listening. Oh,
00:23:48
I'm ancient. He's probably about five
00:23:49
years older than me. I don't know.
00:23:51
>> He was he was doing like a vet degree
00:23:52
and um cut his teeth in radio there.
00:23:55
Then went on to set up the company that
00:23:56
is now Media Works. He was my boss for a
00:23:58
while. I think Jeremy Corbett was an
00:24:00
investor as well.
00:24:01
>> Jeremy's got a great story about that
00:24:02
cuz he apparently missed out on he like
00:24:04
he's got this he invested in the early
00:24:06
days and then pulled his money out just
00:24:07
as it got good and just started flying.
00:24:08
Yeah. So he did Energy FM and in I think
00:24:11
Tanaki and Jeremy stopped and then of
00:24:13
course Media Works took off. But yeah,
00:24:15
you weren't tempted to be an early
00:24:16
investor.
00:24:17
>> No, I didn't have the opportunity. I
00:24:18
have no money. I was broke. I was a
00:24:20
completely broke student, but loved it.
00:24:21
And also I only stayed at Massie about a
00:24:24
year and a half or two years. And then
00:24:25
we had this incredible experience where
00:24:27
we literally got, you know, the phoned
00:24:28
up and said, "Do you want to be on a TV
00:24:30
show?"
00:24:30
>> Me and a few other guys. So, so we went
00:24:33
off in a different direction for a
00:24:34
little while.
00:24:35
>> Yeah. So, this is when um God, this is
00:24:37
going to age the conversation. There
00:24:38
were two TV channels in New Zealand, TV1
00:24:40
and TV 2. And then TV TV3 was launching.
00:24:43
And this was a TV show called A Way
00:24:44
Laughing.
00:24:45
>> That's right. Yeah.
00:24:45
>> So, you got sort of headhunted for this.
00:24:47
>> It was amazing.
00:24:48
>> How I mean it's like it's it's the
00:24:51
starlights, right? It's the it's the
00:24:53
dream. But how did that conversation go
00:24:54
down with your parents?
00:24:55
>> Uh not well guys.
00:24:58
>> I like to think cuz my um yeah, it was
00:25:01
the second year of uni. We got we did
00:25:03
we're doing the capping review again and
00:25:05
unbeknownst to us one of the a d a
00:25:07
producer from TV came along Dave Gibson
00:25:09
um came along watched it and he sort of
00:25:11
was obviously writing notes and he went
00:25:13
you you and you and he picked the three
00:25:14
of us and we got a phone call saying do
00:25:16
you want to come and work on this TV
00:25:18
show I'm creating. It was literally sort
00:25:19
of out of the blue like these things
00:25:20
don't happen. So, I had to break it to
00:25:22
my parents that I was going to quit
00:25:24
university halfway through second year
00:25:26
and um go off and do this weird thing of
00:25:28
being an actor and and a comedian. And
00:25:30
and it was it was heartbreaking to them,
00:25:32
I think, because I was going to be the
00:25:34
first ever on both sides of my family.
00:25:37
My my father and my mother were all very
00:25:39
workingass. Their whole generations
00:25:41
back, you know, Irish, you know, living
00:25:43
sort of pretty hand-to-mouth existences.
00:25:45
And I was the first child to go to
00:25:47
university. my two older sisters who are
00:25:49
who are now incredibly um uh profession
00:25:52
and accomplished but back then had
00:25:54
children quite young and didn't have the
00:25:56
opportunity to go to university etc. So
00:25:58
it's like the whole family history was
00:26:00
resting on my shoulders and then I said
00:26:03
>> I'm throwing it away. Yeah. I have the
00:26:04
great hope I'm throwing it away. I'm
00:26:05
going to go and be a comedian. I was
00:26:07
like you can just imagine them oh gosh
00:26:10
>> you couldn't be more disappointed.
00:26:11
>> That's right. But um but no I think I've
00:26:14
made up for it now I hope. But yeah,
00:26:16
>> knowing what you know now about TV and
00:26:17
how fickle it is and how how quickly
00:26:19
they you make knee-jerk decisions or
00:26:21
they did back then, there's no way you
00:26:22
do it, right?
00:26:23
>> No, but the way you pull out it depends
00:26:25
on your like you've ignorance
00:26:27
>> when something like that presents itself
00:26:29
at the age of I was probably 19 or 18
00:26:31
even maybe um no 19 it was why wouldn't
00:26:35
you like there's there's a very low risk
00:26:38
um at that stage of your life. I mean, I
00:26:39
mentor lots of young people now, and I
00:26:41
just say, "Do anything." Like, anyone
00:26:42
that offers you anything at that age of
00:26:44
early 20s before you've got mortgages
00:26:46
and children and long-term relationships
00:26:47
and debt and whatever, just take every
00:26:49
opportunity that's offered to you cuz
00:26:50
it's
00:26:51
>> there's very low risk and um you can
00:26:53
always adjust later. When you're my age
00:26:55
now, like mid-50s, late 50s, yeah, you
00:26:57
got to be a bit more thoughtful, but
00:26:58
back then, you know, take the
00:27:00
opportunity. But yes, it's very fickle.
00:27:02
TV, as you know, media, oh, you're
00:27:04
you're great. You're the greatest thing
00:27:05
ever. No, you're gone. So, we've given
00:27:07
it two episodes. It hasn't worked.
00:27:09
>> Sorry. Yeah. One of the TV producers I
00:27:11
used to work with, I hope this is not
00:27:12
too much for you say one day they're
00:27:13
opening the bottle of champagne for you
00:27:15
and next day they're shoving it up your
00:27:16
bum. So,
00:27:20
>> but yes.
00:27:20
>> So, what was it like back then? Um you
00:27:22
being on it must have been exciting like
00:27:24
being on the startup channel TV3.
00:27:26
>> It was we were opening night of TV3. Um
00:27:28
it was it got a lot of hype. Uh you know
00:27:30
it was bus stops and whatever and and
00:27:32
there was like two or three local
00:27:34
content things that night. um I think
00:27:36
news news something or other um there
00:27:39
was a news program there was us there
00:27:40
was a there was a drama program and then
00:27:42
there was a bunch of you know US-based
00:27:43
stuff or whatever they bought so we it
00:27:45
was a big deal and it was all in the
00:27:46
press and you know listener and all the
00:27:48
articles and stuff and it it was an
00:27:50
ensemble cast so there was I think eight
00:27:52
or 10 of us um some really cool people
00:27:54
Kevin Smith god Rest his soul was was
00:27:56
there um Donald Mlain Robert Malcolm me
00:28:01
John Paul you know a bunch of people Tim
00:28:03
Balm I can't remember who now there was
00:28:04
a few of And it was cool. So, and we we
00:28:07
were given this, you know, amazing uh
00:28:09
opportunity, a 13 part episode, 13
00:28:12
episodes. We had a couple of series in
00:28:13
the end. And it was very character-
00:28:15
based. You know, they were they were
00:28:17
basing it on some Australian formats
00:28:18
where they where they have regular
00:28:20
characters with kind of catchphrases and
00:28:21
the catchphrases were designed to become
00:28:23
more and more repetitive.
00:28:24
>> Comedy company in Australia.
00:28:25
>> Comedy company. It was the same kind of
00:28:27
time as that came out. And so I had two
00:28:29
of those characters. One was Daryl Hoon.
00:28:31
Uh Daryl Hoon and what's it to you? Um,
00:28:33
that was my catchphrase among other
00:28:35
things. And then we had me and John did
00:28:36
these two skateboarder guys that were
00:28:38
actually a sketch that we' done at
00:28:40
university. So, so it was very And then
00:28:42
we had just general sketches. So, it was
00:28:43
very safe. I look back at it now and
00:28:45
some of it's a bit cringeworthy. Some of
00:28:47
the gags still held holder, but most of
00:28:48
it you go, "Oh man, it was a bit ropey."
00:28:51
But, um, you know, it was we was we were
00:28:52
learning. We were trying things out.
00:28:54
What were the reviews like?
00:28:55
>> Yeah, they were okay. They were pretty
00:28:56
good. I think we did go up against like
00:28:59
Mcfallen Gatsby and stuff in the end. So
00:29:00
like they were putting us against some
00:29:02
pretty, you know, established things.
00:29:04
But yeah, I think we did pretty well out
00:29:06
of it. And you know, it was certainly
00:29:07
fun. Like me and um me and my friends,
00:29:10
you know, it was the dream come true. We
00:29:11
were suddenly working in TV and getting
00:29:13
paid more than we ever knew was
00:29:15
possible. We had literally $1,000 a week
00:29:17
or something. It was like, "Oh my god,
00:29:18
what are we going to do with all this
00:29:20
money?"
00:29:21
We found out some of the rest of the
00:29:23
cast were getting paid substantially
00:29:24
more than that. But we were like the
00:29:26
naive young guys from Palmer North.
00:29:28
>> And was it around this time that you um
00:29:30
co-ounded the classic?
00:29:32
>> Just a bit after. Yeah, we move after
00:29:34
doing two series of that. We moved to
00:29:36
Oakland um and continued working in TV.
00:29:39
I say we cuz um by that stage my wife
00:29:41
which my girlfriend at the time who's
00:29:42
become my wife Katherine and we we'd got
00:29:44
together. John came up here and we moved
00:29:47
moved up here worked in other TV shows.
00:29:49
So, we were in like more production
00:29:50
roles or writing or doing a little bit
00:29:52
of acting and stuff and and because that
00:29:55
as you probably know is not really a job
00:29:57
like you you'll have a 3 or 4 month
00:29:59
project which is awesome and then you're
00:30:01
sleeping on someone's couch for 3 months
00:30:03
while you haven't got any money you know
00:30:04
so so we decided we needed to be a bit
00:30:06
more in control of our own destiny so we
00:30:08
we were doing a lot of standup comedy in
00:30:10
clubs as well in bars and stuff and but
00:30:12
they were other people's pubs and I
00:30:14
remember you know vividly remember we
00:30:15
would done had done all the work we
00:30:17
would be bringing in the chairs We would
00:30:19
be s Katherine and girlfriends and stuff
00:30:21
would be sitting at the door taking the
00:30:22
tickets. We'd be on stage telling our
00:30:24
jokes. We'd pack it all up again the end
00:30:26
of the night and then we'd divvy up the
00:30:28
proceeds and we might get 20 bucks each.
00:30:30
And you'd watch the guy behind the bar
00:30:31
just creaming it the whole time and
00:30:33
making money. So we think, why are we
00:30:34
doing, you know, things in other
00:30:36
people's bars? Why don't we own the bar?
00:30:38
You know, again, naively, I was I was
00:30:40
not even I was probably 21, 22, but
00:30:43
three or four of us decided, yeah, let's
00:30:45
let's do it. How hard can it be? So we
00:30:48
turns out very hard. But al again, same
00:30:50
sort of thing. You know, you don't know
00:30:51
how hard it's going to be. There's no
00:30:53
real major mistakes you're going to make
00:30:54
at that stage of your life that you
00:30:55
can't get out of. So, we um yeah, we set
00:30:58
up the classic. So, um incredible. I've
00:31:00
had um I had Scott on the podcast at the
00:31:03
beginning of the year. Great chance. So,
00:31:04
he he was one of the founders with you
00:31:06
and he's still there now.
00:31:06
>> Still there now. Yeah. He's amazing.
00:31:08
>> The original model was um
00:31:11
>> there was about five or six of us
00:31:12
involved. Scott was sort of on the
00:31:13
peripheral to start with, but then he
00:31:14
became very important. Um but it was
00:31:16
Jeremy put some money in you know we got
00:31:18
friends and family you know and friends
00:31:20
family and fools as the sort of go
00:31:22
saying goes with um early stage money.
00:31:24
Um Katherine's mother put money in like
00:31:27
we put whatever money we had. We were
00:31:28
the only ones at this stage that had any
00:31:30
kind of assets. I owned a we owned a
00:31:31
house randomly a little apartment tiny
00:31:33
little place that we'd scraped to get
00:31:35
enough money to buy. So that was the
00:31:36
that was kind of the um the guarantee on
00:31:39
the loan from for setting up the
00:31:41
classic. And then uh yeah, but what we
00:31:44
were trying to do is basically turn it
00:31:45
into a business. And and it's sort of a
00:31:47
business, but actually much more it's a
00:31:49
social good. And we realized after a few
00:31:51
years that actually the model of trying
00:31:53
to have multiple people own it and think
00:31:55
that you're ever going to make any money
00:31:56
is not going to work.
00:31:57
>> It actually needs to be an owner
00:31:58
operator like a like a dairy.
00:32:00
>> And that's kind of what it still is. And
00:32:01
Scott's done an amazing job. um not not
00:32:04
dismissing um you know it is a business
00:32:07
but actually it's much more of this just
00:32:08
kind of engine of creativity and growth
00:32:11
and giving comedians an opportunity to
00:32:12
kind of learn their craft.
00:32:14
>> Yeah. And in terms of nurturing young
00:32:16
comedians he's so bloody good, isn't he?
00:32:18
So lucky to have him.
00:32:19
>> It's always been his massive skill. Like
00:32:21
it's so funny cuz most of the people who
00:32:23
work in comedy are comedians, you know,
00:32:25
and they sit around and tell jokes with
00:32:27
and it's like oneupmanship and you're
00:32:29
kind of taking the piss out of each
00:32:30
other constantly. And Scott's this
00:32:31
really interesting force. He's the
00:32:33
godfather. Um cuz he'll sit there and
00:32:35
not try and do all of that, but he'll
00:32:37
observe and he'll tweak and he'll give
00:32:38
people advice and it's amazing. He's
00:32:41
just got such a skill and as you say,
00:32:43
nurturing the next generations that come
00:32:45
through. So back then we were ropey as
00:32:47
hell. You know, 50% of our stuff was
00:32:49
awful, you know. Um we were learning,
00:32:52
the audiences were learning as well.
00:32:53
Like it was so funny. I look back like
00:32:55
we we both none of us really knew what
00:32:57
standup comedy could be or should be. Um
00:32:59
and you have to do a lot of it. It's
00:33:01
like any skill, you know, thousands of
00:33:02
hours of training to get good at
00:33:04
something. Um and so yeah, the early um
00:33:08
audiences were put up with a lot. Uh but
00:33:10
Scott was Scott was very much there
00:33:12
training, learning as himself, showing
00:33:14
other and then part of bringing um a big
00:33:17
step we took at one point was to start
00:33:18
to bring in international comedians into
00:33:20
New Zealand. Like it was a real like a
00:33:22
step change to thinking not only are we
00:33:24
going to run our own thing, but we're
00:33:26
arrogant enough to think that we can
00:33:27
produce other people's shows. and Scott
00:33:28
was big behind that. Um bringing in you
00:33:31
know Ed Davies um who was Rich Hall um
00:33:35
Bill Bailey who were the first producers
00:33:37
of Bill Bailey and so we did this thing
00:33:38
over through the comedy festivals um
00:33:41
bringing in these comedians and yeah he
00:33:43
he was a big driver behind that was
00:33:44
amazing.
00:33:46
>> Yeah. So, so you're in this unique
00:33:47
position where you you're a creative um
00:33:50
but also yeah 1992 CEO of the comedy
00:33:52
fest and then 19 uh mid '90s you set up
00:33:55
a company called Eureka software
00:33:56
development company.
00:33:57
>> Oh gosh, you have done your research.
00:33:58
>> So you you've got it's almost like these
00:34:00
two lives.
00:34:01
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was a bit like that. I
00:34:02
think cuz my brain's always been a bit
00:34:05
more mathematical than most others and I
00:34:07
was the sort of initial CEO for for the
00:34:09
um for the classic and the comedy fest
00:34:11
when it first started because I knew how
00:34:13
to use a spreadsheet cuz I'd gone to
00:34:14
university and done maths like it was
00:34:16
literally I had no idea about finance. I
00:34:17
just had knew how to use a spreadsheet.
00:34:19
Um and then I had some good friends that
00:34:21
helped as well. But yeah, so there has
00:34:23
been that and and also I knew again I
00:34:25
could see pretty quickly that the comedy
00:34:27
thing was not really a career. It was a
00:34:28
cool thing to do for a few years and
00:34:30
hanging out with my mates and we did a
00:34:32
lot of radio and it was awesome but we
00:34:35
needed a proper job and again maybe I
00:34:37
was a little bit more mature advanced
00:34:39
than some of my friends. No disrespect
00:34:40
to them but Katherine and I got together
00:34:42
early decided we were going to get
00:34:44
married wanted to have children realized
00:34:45
that jeepers one of us had barely have a
00:34:47
job. So we we set up this technology
00:34:50
company and again it was super early
00:34:52
1995 was just when the internet was
00:34:54
starting out. Windows 95 came out. I
00:34:57
remember it vividly and we set up a
00:34:58
company at that point to basically do
00:35:00
the sort of things that are still around
00:35:02
now. Um, but we were way ahead of I was
00:35:06
going to say way ahead sounds like like
00:35:07
we arrogantly knew what the thing was
00:35:08
doing. No, we we were too early trying
00:35:10
to do things with technology that was
00:35:12
too immature. Um, underinvesting in it,
00:35:14
not really knowing quite what we're
00:35:16
doing. But we we we set up a pretty good
00:35:18
business that went for a few years,
00:35:19
quite a few years. So yeah, it was fun.
00:35:21
And I was running that at the same time
00:35:22
I was running the classic for a couple
00:35:23
years. there was an overlap and it was
00:35:25
and we actually had the office the techn
00:35:27
Eureka was set up in the same office as
00:35:29
the comedy um club for a while. So I'd
00:35:31
be you know helping out the comedy side
00:35:33
for one in the evening and then trying
00:35:35
to do and write code and stuff too. I
00:35:37
was I learn I taught myself to be a
00:35:39
software developer.
00:35:39
>> That's wild. So were you were you like
00:35:41
two different p two different people and
00:35:44
to be in one room you're in
00:35:46
>> probably possibly actually I don't know
00:35:48
I mean I was I was nerdy in both of
00:35:50
them. Um,
00:35:52
but luckily I have good people around
00:35:53
me. I mean, that's the thing. That's the
00:35:55
thing I've learned is you don't have to
00:35:56
be perfect at everything. You just have
00:35:57
to gather people around that are good at
00:36:00
stuff. So, yeah,
00:36:00
>> it's just a crazy thought this guy
00:36:02
writing code by daytime and having these
00:36:04
these these meetings about where the the
00:36:06
internet's going to go in the future and
00:36:07
then by night you're doing five minute
00:36:08
sets on stage.
00:36:09
>> Well, the interesting thing is comedians
00:36:11
are often very intelligent. I'm not
00:36:13
saying I am but many int a lot of
00:36:15
intelligent and there's a lot of
00:36:16
parallels between those types of sort of
00:36:18
logical things like mathematics or
00:36:20
computer programming. Jeremy Corbett's a
00:36:22
closet computer programmer if you don't
00:36:24
know that um used to do a lot of work in
00:36:26
cobalt John Bridges wrote a his whole
00:36:29
mast's thesis on hypertextual analysis
00:36:31
and webs and how websites would work and
00:36:33
so a lot of people have that in them
00:36:36
it's just that comedy is kind of like a
00:36:38
much more near-term short-term sugar
00:36:40
rush that you can get out of it. Where
00:36:42
did
00:36:44
I stay withd
00:36:52
that sort of dropped off along the way?
00:36:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people. Yeah. It's
00:36:54
not for everyone. It's a a is a
00:36:56
lifestyle. It's a difficult job. You
00:36:58
know, those that work hard, they work on
00:37:00
weekends and nights. It's pretty
00:37:02
antisocial from a family point of view
00:37:03
at times. B, it's actually hard to be
00:37:06
successful because you've just got to do
00:37:07
a lot of work, a lot of hours to get
00:37:09
good and you've got to takes a lot to,
00:37:11
you know, a fiveminute set takes you
00:37:12
hours to think of and write and craft
00:37:14
and hone and tune and whatever. So,
00:37:16
there's a lot of effort behind it and
00:37:17
then of course you've got to have the
00:37:18
talent for it. So, you know, um, a lot
00:37:21
of those people drop off. You often have
00:37:23
to have a second job. You know, you
00:37:25
know, radio was a classic one or people
00:37:27
would do things that allow them to do
00:37:29
that stuff in the evening. So for me, I
00:37:30
I quickly realized there were other
00:37:32
things that interested in me more and I
00:37:34
probably wasn't willing enough to spend
00:37:36
the the hours and hours needed to get
00:37:38
really good and you know I want to spend
00:37:39
time with my family and do other cool
00:37:42
things. Yeah.
00:37:42
>> And and you like you like money. You
00:37:44
like not being broke. You like eating
00:37:46
food.
00:37:46
>> Yeah. I like Yeah. I like eating food.
00:37:48
Yeah. That's the other thing. Yeah.
00:37:49
You've got to surviving on
00:37:52
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, but I I'm so
00:37:54
pleased with the way that we did that
00:37:56
back in those days and the whole
00:37:58
industry has just developed. You know,
00:37:59
we couldn't have written the script
00:38:00
better in terms of New Zealand's comedy
00:38:02
scene is rich and diverse and cool and
00:38:05
youthful and has a has a New Zealand
00:38:07
twist on it. It's all the things we had
00:38:09
hoped, but um it wasn't there wasn't a
00:38:11
business plan to do that, but that was
00:38:12
certainly part of the the vision that we
00:38:15
hoped for.
00:38:16
>> And you do so much um keynote speaking
00:38:17
and stuff now. I suppose that sort of
00:38:19
scratches your itch.
00:38:19
>> It does. That's my uh my outlet. Yeah.
00:38:21
People say, "Do you do much comedy?" I
00:38:23
go do comedy every day. Like every
00:38:24
meeting I'm in. I'm not on purpose. I'm
00:38:26
not trying I'm not cracking jokes very
00:38:28
often. Probably too much for my kids,
00:38:30
you know, a bit dad jokey. But um but I
00:38:32
definitely It's funny actually cuz in my
00:38:34
when I dropped out and I went and worked
00:38:36
for Microsoft and all this sort of
00:38:37
stuff, I thought, "Oh, I better be
00:38:38
serious and I better put a shirt on and
00:38:40
I can't I can't show people who I really
00:38:42
am." So I'd be like biting my tongue,
00:38:45
not saying the funny thing. uh and you
00:38:46
know for years and then over the years I
00:38:48
realized the more I just let myself be
00:38:50
myself and make the jokes and be you
00:38:52
know friendly and whatever the better
00:38:54
things went. So I just sort of unleashed
00:38:57
it and now I'm in this job where I sort
00:38:59
of literally am briefing the prime
00:39:00
minister and talking to ministers and
00:39:02
whatever and make and I just be me and
00:39:04
it and it seems to work pretty well. So
00:39:05
I don't try and you know be two
00:39:08
different people anymore.
00:39:09
>> Yeah.
00:39:09
>> Yeah.
00:39:09
>> Yeah. You you mentioned Microsoft just
00:39:11
then. Yeah. So you worked at Microsoft
00:39:12
for 13 years.
00:39:14
regional director for Southeast Asia.
00:39:16
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:16
>> Um that sounds like a big job.
00:39:18
>> It was. Yeah. It was cool. I mean we I
00:39:20
worked here in New Zealand first for
00:39:21
Microsoft. I got headunted by Microsoft
00:39:23
after say running my own business and
00:39:26
technology and that you know and they
00:39:28
asked me to come and work for them which
00:39:29
was cool and it was great fun to work
00:39:31
for a big corporate. Again I hadn't I
00:39:33
hadn't really consciously thought of it
00:39:34
as a next step but it was a great next
00:39:36
step like going work for a massive
00:39:37
corporate and learning how corporate
00:39:39
environments work. Then they offered me
00:39:41
a job uh working in Southeast Asia which
00:39:44
we'd never lived in or worked in. So it
00:39:46
was great. And it was at that time we
00:39:48
had we've had um three children and we
00:39:50
thought yeah it's a good age. The kids
00:39:52
are kind of you know what they four
00:39:54
seven and nine or something like that I
00:39:55
can't remember. And we thought yeah
00:39:56
let's go and do have an adventure with
00:39:58
the kids. And so we went lived lived in
00:40:00
Singapore which is a nice sort of safe
00:40:02
easy place to live. And then I looked
00:40:04
after all these 11 countries around
00:40:06
Southeast Asia, which were the the weird
00:40:08
and wonderful markets, the places that
00:40:11
US corporates kind of struggle to be
00:40:13
successful in sometimes. And my job was
00:40:16
um kind of being the the um regional
00:40:19
manager. Sounds awful. It sounds like a
00:40:20
David Brent thing, but um but but
00:40:23
basically they had subsidiaries in all
00:40:24
these countries and then I would sort of
00:40:26
fly in and just make sure that we're
00:40:27
being legal and you know, everything's
00:40:28
above board and things projects are
00:40:30
going well and we're we're doing okay.
00:40:32
And um yeah, it was great fun. Yeah. Did
00:40:34
you enjoy it?
00:40:35
>> Oh, I loved it. Oh, that was probably
00:40:36
one of the best jobs. It was stressful
00:40:38
as hell because the the answer to the
00:40:40
question is are things going well was no
00:40:41
most of the time. Um cuz 11 countries,
00:40:45
some of them are a little bit wild westy
00:40:47
in terms of the way that their
00:40:49
legalities work and there's a bit of
00:40:50
graft going on, bit of corruption here
00:40:52
and or a very grumpy customer or
00:40:55
whatever. Um so it wasn't always easy.
00:40:58
Um, but it was great fun and learning
00:41:00
the differences between countries. You
00:41:02
know, as a New Zealander, we often look
00:41:04
at the world and go, there's Asia and
00:41:05
there's America. And it's only when you
00:41:07
get up close and living there, you
00:41:09
realize the differences and the nuances
00:41:11
and, you know, Philippines is very very
00:41:13
different than Vietnam or or Indonesia
00:41:15
or whatever. And so, you're learning and
00:41:17
I love that aspect of it. Um, I was
00:41:20
applying the business stuff I knew but
00:41:21
in a completely new context.
00:41:23
>> Wow.
00:41:23
>> Yeah. Did did you have anything to do
00:41:25
with upper management like Bill Gates or
00:41:27
>> Paul Allen the other guy?
00:41:28
>> Yeah, way back then. Yeah. But Bill
00:41:30
Gates gave me a watch which was very
00:41:31
cool. Actually I won award. Yeah. I won
00:41:33
this award a big award the big Microsoft
00:41:35
global award for sort of whatever I
00:41:38
can't remember the chairman's club it
00:41:39
was called. That's right. So I got a
00:41:40
Rolex gold Rolex from Bill with it on
00:41:43
the back it says 2D from BG
00:41:46
uh which is pretty cool. So that was at
00:41:48
a that was you know like an award thing
00:41:50
that you know Microsoft like all those
00:41:51
big corporates they have these big
00:41:52
incentive programs and this was the you
00:41:54
know the top of them top of the top
00:41:55
awards. So I've still got that in a draw
00:41:56
somewhere. I don't wear a watch so and
00:41:58
I'm not going to wear a gold Rolex cuz
00:42:00
it's a bit of wanky but
00:42:01
>> was is the money wild in that time.
00:42:03
>> Oh it wasn't it wasn't wild enough. I I
00:42:05
mistimed my run. Microsoft was this
00:42:08
amazing company. It grew like crazy. And
00:42:11
like when I joined they said to me don't
00:42:12
worry about the don't worry about the
00:42:14
pay. It's all about the stock options.
00:42:15
You just just forget about the pay. It's
00:42:17
just like chump change. But then I
00:42:19
joined and then they had this this issue
00:42:21
with the US government and you know
00:42:23
there was the consent decree and the the
00:42:25
stock basically just flatlined for about
00:42:27
12 of the 13 years I was there. And then
00:42:29
after 12 13 years I I'm going to do
00:42:31
something different. I'm out of here.
00:42:33
Made a little bit of money. Don't get me
00:42:34
wrong, you know, we we did fine. But
00:42:36
compared to the there's a great story
00:42:38
about Microsoft where there if if you
00:42:40
can let me diverge for a second where
00:42:41
there was a receptionist in one of the
00:42:43
offices in Australia and every year all
00:42:46
the all the people that work for
00:42:47
Microsoft in in those early days would
00:42:48
get stock options as part of the annual
00:42:50
bonuses and and she didn't understand
00:42:51
what it meant. She was oh yeah whatever
00:42:53
just and then one day she said to one of
00:42:55
her workmates what are these things that
00:42:57
I've got here? I've got you know so many
00:42:58
hundreds or whatever of these things and
00:42:59
they did the calculation and she had
00:43:01
like $3 million. It was like she was
00:43:04
literally the receptionist at the at the
00:43:06
office in and uh so you imagine what
00:43:08
that was doing for some other people
00:43:09
that were on a substantially higher but
00:43:11
I missed that bit and then when I left I
00:43:14
thought I've had enough. I'm going to do
00:43:15
something else which has been great
00:43:17
don't get me wrong I'm not bitter but
00:43:19
when I left I had to sell all of my
00:43:20
remaining stock and stuff and then I
00:43:22
look back at it you know years later I
00:43:24
go oh my god it's gone up literally 10
00:43:26
times what I would have sold it for.
00:43:28
>> But it's okay I'm fine. I'm not bitter.
00:43:30
>> Thanks for reminding me. Yeah. Who's got
00:43:33
um in terms of that, have you and Jeremy
00:43:34
Corbett have a discussion about who's
00:43:36
got the worst scars on their back?
00:43:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we get
00:43:39
together and be bitter and twisted
00:43:40
together. But it's both good for both of
00:43:43
you guys.
00:43:43
>> Uh if you if you worry about stuff like
00:43:45
that, you're worrying about the wrong
00:43:46
stuff, you know, like we're okay. We can
00:43:47
feed the kids and you know, whatever.
00:43:49
And and it's it's never been about the
00:43:51
money, you know. Um money's money is
00:43:54
important to a certain level. It's a
00:43:55
hygiene factor for all of us. And
00:43:57
someone said to me a very wise thing
00:43:59
once, there's no such thing as a poor
00:44:00
philanthropist. You know, I really want
00:44:02
to be in a position where I can give
00:44:04
away money. And Katherine and I have
00:44:05
already talked about, you know, when we
00:44:06
when we pass, we'll be giving money to
00:44:08
these different charities and stuff like
00:44:09
that. We haven't got a lot of money, but
00:44:11
it'll be nice to be able to recognize
00:44:12
that. Um, but you can only do that if
00:44:15
you've, you know, you're not
00:44:16
sustainable. And also from a time point
00:44:18
of view, I've been very lucky that I
00:44:20
work part-time in my New Zealand story
00:44:21
job. They let me do that because I want
00:44:23
to work for the Malagan Institute and do
00:44:24
all these other things. So, um, yeah, if
00:44:27
you if you you can't do that unless
00:44:28
you're in a position to do that.
00:44:30
>> Yeah.
00:44:31
>> What room would you say you're more
00:44:32
comfortable in? Is it like a like a room
00:44:33
full of comedians or a room full of
00:44:35
computer geeks or a room full of suits
00:44:37
or
00:44:38
>> Wow, these are good questions.
00:44:40
>> I could do all of that. I don't mind.
00:44:41
I'm in all of those rooms quite
00:44:42
regularly actually.
00:44:44
>> And you you're pretty much the same or
00:44:45
you just moderate your behavior slightly
00:44:47
for the audience.
00:44:47
>> I might moderate it a little bit. you
00:44:49
know, if you're in a room full of
00:44:51
politicians or, you know, serious
00:44:52
business people or whatever, you're not
00:44:53
you're not quite doing the, you know,
00:44:55
the cracking the jokes that the
00:44:57
comedians are going to do, but at the
00:44:58
same time,
00:44:59
>> comedians, you know, will talk about
00:45:01
world affairs and are interested in the
00:45:03
economy and what's going on and politics
00:45:05
and stuff like so the the worlds are not
00:45:07
mutually exclusive at all. Um, yeah. And
00:45:09
I I find that useful.
00:45:11
>> Part of I think part of my value is a
00:45:12
little bit that I do walk in these
00:45:14
different spaces and I can actually
00:45:15
connect the dots um between things.
00:45:17
>> Oh, it's a superpower. Yeah. Hopefully
00:45:19
served you well.
00:45:20
>> Yeah. So far,
00:45:21
>> Jess, um 22,000 followers on LinkedIn as
00:45:24
well. Like you're very well connected.
00:45:25
>> Most of them are my mom. She set up all
00:45:27
these ghost accounts, I think. Yeah.
00:45:29
>> Well, for me, I think LinkedIn's the
00:45:31
only social media app that's safe from
00:45:32
my mom.
00:45:33
>> Well, she's definitely not going to
00:45:35
check you out on LinkedIn. I know. Oh,
00:45:38
LinkedIn's been an amazing part of my
00:45:39
story. Actually, I'm so lucky because
00:45:41
LinkedIn was literally the way that my
00:45:43
life got saved, you know, and I give
00:45:45
great credit to it. I was so I was
00:45:47
public with telling my story. and I got
00:45:49
connected with this guy on LinkedIn who
00:45:50
who said I think I can help you and and
00:45:53
so it's amazing but but also I do see it
00:45:55
as a useful um way to kind of connect
00:45:58
with other people and share and learn
00:45:59
and yeah
00:46:02
>> you you brought it up then the um yeah
00:46:04
the LinkedIn thing and the um the guy
00:46:06
from FISA that slid into your DMs.
00:46:08
>> Yeah.
00:46:09
>> Um almost is would it be fair to say
00:46:11
he's almost like a guardian angel?
00:46:13
>> Yeah, Mike his name is. He is. Yeah. and
00:46:15
he still connects with me very
00:46:16
regularly. Like he'll send me a text
00:46:18
every now and then. He's a great a great
00:46:19
guy. So the story there is I was I was
00:46:22
just going to work. I was back here in
00:46:24
New Zealand at this point. Had finished
00:46:25
my job at Microsoft was working at New
00:46:27
Zealand trade and enterprise which is an
00:46:28
amazing government agency using my
00:46:31
skills in international like work and
00:46:33
great. Um and then I got I basically got
00:46:36
came down and got diagnosed with cancer
00:46:37
out of the blue. you know, I was just
00:46:39
feeling a bit under the weather and went
00:46:40
to the doctor and it just escalated
00:46:41
really quickly to I think I've got the
00:46:43
flu to no, you've got quite severe
00:46:45
cancer and actually we need you to do
00:46:48
chemotherapy and I'm in and out of
00:46:49
hospital. And so my life just changed
00:46:51
like radically in a really short amount
00:46:53
of time, mid-40s at the time. And um and
00:46:56
I had, you know, again, like I said
00:46:58
earlier, I I've always wanted to be
00:46:59
creative. So I thought, what am I going
00:47:00
to do? I started writing and I wrote a
00:47:02
column every day, every every week and
00:47:04
stuff published it, which was cool. Um,
00:47:07
and it was because I was a comedian. I
00:47:09
don't take things too serious. I was
00:47:10
writing kind of a a more humorous
00:47:12
version of what it's like to go through
00:47:14
med serious medical incidents. And
00:47:16
sometimes though it's quite serious
00:47:17
because what you're going through is
00:47:18
quite you know difficult. But I I put it
00:47:20
out every week whether I liked it or
00:47:22
not. And uh it got thousands of
00:47:24
followers. It was really getting a lot
00:47:25
of uptake and I was getting lots of um
00:47:28
you know beautiful messages and things
00:47:30
like that. But it did get to the point
00:47:31
where the treatment just we ran out of
00:47:33
options. And this is why this is such a
00:47:35
thing that's close to my heart is cuz
00:47:36
people are still getting this kind of
00:47:37
message in New Zealand. We just don't
00:47:39
have the treatments you need. Like we
00:47:41
can go this far, but we can't afford the
00:47:43
treatments that are now available. You
00:47:45
know, there's so many of this these
00:47:47
stories that are still in our media all
00:47:48
the time. And I was one of them. And for
00:47:51
me, it was, you know, the choices where
00:47:53
go home and, you know, live out the next
00:47:55
6 months of your life and enjoy it. Um,
00:47:59
or nothing. You know, there was no other
00:48:02
option. And so I wrote about that. I
00:48:04
said, you know, I'm we're at the end of
00:48:06
the road. Things are looking really
00:48:07
bleak. They've just had, you know, the
00:48:08
tumors have come back. They've told me
00:48:10
they've got no more chemo options. And
00:48:13
this guy who had been reading my column,
00:48:15
Mike, um, sent me a message on LinkedIn,
00:48:18
uh, out of the blue again and just said,
00:48:20
"Look, you don't know me and I don't
00:48:21
know you, but I've been reading your
00:48:22
story and, um, you know, I'm I've sort
00:48:25
of work in the medical field and can I
00:48:26
help?"
00:48:26
>> What is he like vice president at?
00:48:28
>> Yeah. turns out to be the senior vice
00:48:30
president uh for immunology at at FISA
00:48:33
bas he's got an office in New York.
00:48:35
What's he doing reading stuff?
00:48:36
>> Yeah, cuz he it's cool. This one I love
00:48:38
it. This random all these things come
00:48:40
together cuz he'd been to New Zealand on
00:48:41
holiday and he loves New Zealand. He
00:48:43
loved the people. He loves reading New
00:48:45
Zealand news. He'd like been here and
00:48:47
done the April Tasman and whatever. Went
00:48:49
back to America's kept reading stuff cuz
00:48:51
it's like he goes it's such like a a joy
00:48:53
to read a newspaper that's not all about
00:48:55
American politics and not it's not this
00:48:57
one perspective of the world. It's just
00:48:58
and your news is pretty simple, you
00:49:00
know, like he sometimes still texts me
00:49:02
and he goes, you know, you've got cow
00:49:04
loose on road that's on your front page
00:49:05
of your paper today. It's like, yeah,
00:49:07
Mike, it's actually a really big
00:49:08
problem, the cows on the roads thing.
00:49:10
Don't diss us. But anyway, it's it's a
00:49:12
beautiful thing. So, he and he just
00:49:14
clocked it one day. It said mild touch.
00:49:16
It was called a mild touch of the cancer
00:49:17
was the name of the you know trying to
00:49:19
send a message that it was you know
00:49:20
humorous and uh yeah and then then he
00:49:23
just reached out to me on LinkedIn and
00:49:24
it turned out you know with his
00:49:25
connections he was the type of person
00:49:28
that absolutely could help me and he put
00:49:29
me in touch with people you know within
00:49:31
a few literally a few hours of me going
00:49:33
yes I need help he'd said right here's a
00:49:35
person here's three people you can talk
00:49:36
to this one's doing this trial this is
00:49:38
this call this guy you know it was
00:49:40
amazing and uh basically orchestrated
00:49:42
the opportunity for me to go to Boston
00:49:45
so it
00:49:46
out of the blue. But again, I I always
00:49:48
talk about this. The phones don't
00:49:50
usually ring that way, you know, like I
00:49:51
had this phone call and got discovered
00:49:53
on a TV show. I got this thing out of
00:49:55
the blue to say, "We think we've got a
00:49:57
treatment for your cancer." Like
00:49:58
lightning doesn't strike twice or three
00:50:01
times. So, I was just so lucky. You got
00:50:03
to grab those opportunities when you see
00:50:04
them. And then if you're in a in an
00:50:06
opport a position where you can give
00:50:08
other people that opportunity, you
00:50:10
should do it as well. So, that's kind of
00:50:11
big mantra for me.
00:50:12
>> I mean, it's wonderful how it all it all
00:50:14
worked out. Um you told that so well
00:50:17
like almost the whole cancer journey in
00:50:18
the space of about 3 minutes to drill
00:50:21
down on some of it. Yeah. So um
00:50:23
>> you're a sucker for punishment.
00:50:25
>> So so New Year's 2016 into 2017. Um this
00:50:28
is pre-diagnosis. What what are what are
00:50:30
your goals and dreams for the year?
00:50:31
>> Well, how was your health?
00:50:33
>> My health was okay. I was at the end of
00:50:35
that was the end of a year and it you
00:50:36
know it was I was um quite tired. I
00:50:39
remember I was probably working too
00:50:40
hard. I've got a bit of a propensity to
00:50:42
do that. Just putting that in there in
00:50:43
case my wife listens. Um, it's my fault
00:50:45
completely, dear. Um, but I would, yeah,
00:50:48
so I was tired. So I thought I need I
00:50:49
just need a holiday, you know, I had a
00:50:51
sort of a three or four week holiday and
00:50:52
still was tired and and grumpy and um
00:50:56
couldn't couldn't, you know, get better
00:50:58
and I didn't know what was going on and
00:50:59
and I thought I had some sort of virus
00:51:01
or flu. We'd been to Fiji on holiday, so
00:51:03
we thought Katherine, my wife's going,
00:51:04
"Oh, you've probably got Zika virus."
00:51:06
That was going around at the time.
00:51:07
That's cool. Like Zika virus, very
00:51:09
exotic. So I went to the doctor and they
00:51:11
did all these barrage of tests and
00:51:13
stuff. Uh and they discovered no it
00:51:15
wasn't Zika virus. It wasn't this. It
00:51:16
wasn't that. It took a while to actually
00:51:17
work it out. And then they said actually
00:51:18
no we we'll do an abdominal scan. We
00:51:20
just we can't work out what's going on.
00:51:22
And when they did the abdominal scan
00:51:23
they discovered a massive tumor.
00:51:25
>> And it was like oh okay that explains
00:51:27
it. You've got how big cancer? About the
00:51:29
size of a basketball like about oh wow
00:51:31
>> at 10 in by 12 in sort of deal.
00:51:34
>> I remember the doctor um walking in and
00:51:36
she said yeah you're going to we're
00:51:38
going to get to know each other quite
00:51:39
well. You know, I'm I'm a hematologist.
00:51:42
This is weird. A I think I'm a really
00:51:43
reasonably intelligent person. I didn't
00:51:45
know some of these words. I'm a
00:51:46
hematologist and you've got a hematical
00:51:48
malignancy. And I was going, well, thank
00:51:50
you.
00:51:50
>> I thought that's what it was.
00:51:51
>> Exactly. I was googling it like when she
00:51:53
left me. What the [ __ ] is he malignancy?
00:51:56
Why don't you just say cancer? So, I was
00:51:59
like, wow.
00:51:59
>> So, that's that's February 2017 that you
00:52:02
get diagnosed. Um,
00:52:03
>> yeah. What What are you thinking at that
00:52:05
point? You I mean, you didn't know what
00:52:06
was ahead, but
00:52:07
>> No, I was pretty optimistic. I'm a very
00:52:09
optimistic person, but I was at the time
00:52:11
it was like she said, you know, we we're
00:52:12
pretty sure we know how to treat this.
00:52:14
It's lymphoma. This is a kind of common
00:52:16
blood cancer. You've got B cell
00:52:18
lymphoma. It's pretty, you know, we know
00:52:20
how to treat this. It's fine. So,
00:52:21
>> 80% chance
00:52:22
>> 80% chance. You see, literally said 80%
00:52:24
chance. But this is but but we have to
00:52:26
get on to it immediately. You know, you
00:52:27
can't muck around. So, we need you in
00:52:28
hospital on Monday. You know, you won't
00:52:30
be able to go to, you know, you'll be
00:52:32
feeling pretty sick about things. So,
00:52:34
you know, called my boss, who's amazing
00:52:35
guy, and just said, "I don't know what's
00:52:37
going to happen, but I think it's
00:52:38
probably 3 or 4 months uh of treatment,
00:52:40
and I probably, you know, I'm in and out
00:52:42
of hospital a bit, but I can probably do
00:52:44
some work." And so, it was all okay. But
00:52:46
then, like, by the time the following
00:52:48
Tuesday comes around, they' done some
00:52:49
extra tests and sent my thing off to um
00:52:52
biopsy off to Australia to do some more
00:52:54
tests and and then it got it started
00:52:56
getting worse and worse, you know,
00:52:57
pretty quickly. It was like, "Oh, the
00:52:59
treatment that we were going to give you
00:53:00
is probably not going to work because
00:53:01
you've got this particular genetic
00:53:03
makeup, which means that we know the
00:53:05
chemo that the standard chemo is not
00:53:07
going to work. You you're a bit special
00:53:08
and different, which is not something
00:53:10
you want to hear, by the way. So, and
00:53:12
but we'll need you to be in hospital
00:53:14
now. You're not you can't just come and
00:53:16
do the day stays and leave and go home.
00:53:18
You've actually got to stay in hospital
00:53:19
for like a week at a time, every every
00:53:21
two or three weeks." So, it got bleer
00:53:23
and bleaker. Uh and the and the odds
00:53:25
have went from you know 80% to about
00:53:28
25%. Oh,
00:53:29
>> you know they just said just
00:53:30
statistically you know but you're young
00:53:32
and you know we can still so I was still
00:53:34
trying to be optimistic but it was it
00:53:36
was got harder and harder.
00:53:37
>> You scared or annoyed?
00:53:38
>> I was a bit
00:53:40
scared or annoyed is good. E it's a good
00:53:42
question. a little bit annoyed because
00:53:43
it's so inconvenient. You got other
00:53:46
plans. I want to think [ __ ] to do
00:53:47
>> and you do think I mean on the dark
00:53:50
moments you know and I talk to lots of
00:53:51
patients nowadays about those moments
00:53:53
where you you're sort of alone in your
00:53:55
room late at night or whatever and you
00:53:56
think about what if I'm not around in 5
00:53:58
years time or 10 years time. What if I
00:53:59
don't see my kids get married or see
00:54:01
grandchildren or be retire with my
00:54:03
partner or whatever. So you do have that
00:54:06
um but that's not a healthy place to
00:54:08
stay mentally. M uh you've got to think
00:54:10
no no what okay the doctor said this
00:54:12
we're going to this the plan from here
00:54:14
is this let's just do this next two or
00:54:15
three steps let's not get tragedy you
00:54:18
know let's not over catastrophize so I
00:54:20
was constantly you know I didn't realize
00:54:22
I do quite a bit of public speaking as
00:54:24
you mentioned I talk now about about the
00:54:26
power of um a power of the mind to
00:54:28
actually create different realities you
00:54:30
know the the way that we talk to
00:54:32
ourselves and the language and the and
00:54:33
the perceptions that we create actually
00:54:35
is like a muscle that we can train and
00:54:37
while while you can't be completely
00:54:39
naive to what's going on. You can
00:54:40
certainly build up a level of resilience
00:54:42
that helps you. And I and I was doing
00:54:43
that all that period of time. I was
00:54:45
doing things that were entertaining me
00:54:47
like dressing up my my hotel room. I
00:54:49
called it a hotel room, not a hospital
00:54:51
room. Putting up posters and making my
00:54:54
visitors come in costume and just
00:54:56
>> you do theme things like you pretend
00:54:58
you're in Fiji or Paris. And you weren't
00:55:01
allowed to like turn up. All visitors
00:55:02
were welcome, but you weren't allowed
00:55:03
there unless you were on.
00:55:04
>> That's right. I had to wear costumes. I
00:55:05
remember like you go back to people like
00:55:06
Jeremy Corbett and stuff turning up in a
00:55:08
big Mexican costume with a massive hat
00:55:10
and a fake mustache and like walking
00:55:12
through the hospital and like it's just
00:55:13
like that's the kind of silly stuff that
00:55:16
you know comedians like doing to each
00:55:17
other as a bit of a joke. But it was
00:55:19
like building up a it was a it was
00:55:21
showing people that I was still you know
00:55:23
me and B it was I didn't realize but it
00:55:25
was helping me work out ways of dealing
00:55:28
with the stress cuz again if you just
00:55:29
sit there watching this little chemo
00:55:31
drip going for days and days and you
00:55:33
you'll be driven mad. So, you've got to
00:55:35
do things that actually put you more in
00:55:37
this kind of sense of control and um
00:55:40
giving you a sense of um uh I I am a
00:55:43
principal. I mean, I I've got agency
00:55:45
here, you know, I'm not just a victim in
00:55:47
my situation. And that was such an
00:55:48
important mindset to get out of victim
00:55:50
mentality.
00:55:51
>> Um but but it was hard, you know, I had
00:55:53
to do that for months and months and
00:55:55
months. The the three months I told my
00:55:57
boss turned into, oh, it's now five. Oh,
00:55:59
it's now seven. Uh oh, it's probably 10.
00:56:01
You know, it's like kept going longer
00:56:03
and longer and longer. Yeah. [ __ ]
00:56:04
>> It's like when you start a home
00:56:05
renovation, e and like they give you a
00:56:07
quote.
00:56:07
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then you find out
00:56:10
there's asbestos there or there's
00:56:12
something.
00:56:13
>> Actually, isn't that's not a bad
00:56:14
analogy. Yeah. Yeah. They they they got
00:56:16
underneath the they ripped up. Oh, hang
00:56:18
on. There's more while we're in there.
00:56:20
That's right. Yeah. It's going to cost a
00:56:21
lot more and take a lot longer.
00:56:23
>> But no, it and it, as I say, that was
00:56:26
months and months and months. And I got
00:56:27
to the point after 10 months or whatever
00:56:29
of of just the standard New Zealand
00:56:31
treatment, you know, they we'd stop a
00:56:33
chemo and they'd try a different thing
00:56:34
and then we had to go back to we went to
00:56:36
a different hospital, you know,
00:56:38
escalating all the time, escalating. And
00:56:40
it was they were going to do this thing
00:56:41
called a bone marrow transplant, which
00:56:43
is um a pretty awful sounding procedure.
00:56:47
>> Um and it just got to the point where
00:56:49
they said, "Actually, there's no point
00:56:50
doing it because we know it's not going
00:56:51
to work for you." So we're at this
00:56:53
point. It's like a little hoham moment.
00:56:55
What are we going to do now? And that
00:56:57
was when it all, you know, turned to
00:56:58
custard and the doctor said, "Look, we
00:57:00
think you probably got less than a year
00:57:01
to live and um maybe we should consider
00:57:04
stopping treatment now. You're pretty
00:57:06
beaten up. Had a lot of chemotherapy by
00:57:08
this point." I was looking pretty I look
00:57:09
at the photos of myself then and it's
00:57:12
awful. I was very gaunt, very lost a lot
00:57:14
of weight, 20 probably 20 kilos, you
00:57:16
know. I could probably lose some some of
00:57:18
that again now. But um but I look at it
00:57:20
and it's just like, wow, that was a
00:57:21
really tough time. And it and that's
00:57:23
where lots of patients are finding
00:57:24
themselves still. You know, I talk to
00:57:26
patients in those positions quite
00:57:27
regularly sadly and it's it's you
00:57:30
wouldn't wish it on anybody. You know,
00:57:31
you have it's there's no choice.
00:57:33
Suddenly you're you go from being in the
00:57:35
safe hands of a doctor in a medical
00:57:36
system to going actually there's nothing
00:57:38
left.
00:57:39
>> What are we going to do now?
00:57:42
>> You so that moment where you get told um
00:57:46
>> by the way you've got a great movie on
00:57:47
Neon um called A Touch of Cancer which
00:57:50
which I I watched last night. Oh.
00:57:51
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. One thing, um,
00:57:53
>> so, so the the dress the dressing up
00:57:56
thing that we talked about before and
00:57:57
and the the turn of phrase and the words
00:57:58
you came up with like club med and, uh,
00:58:01
chemo kowir kimono kimono.
00:58:04
>> Um, and and the footage you were taking,
00:58:06
what what was what was that footage for?
00:58:08
Like what was the intention with it at
00:58:09
that point?
00:58:09
>> When we were doing it way back, I didn't
00:58:11
know that we were going to do a te like
00:58:12
we got approached to do this
00:58:13
documentary, which is cool. Yeah. And
00:58:15
and Annie, the director, and Irene,
00:58:17
amazing. They they they took what turned
00:58:19
out to be sort of a year's worth of
00:58:21
footage and made a very lovely thing.
00:58:22
And it's not just about me, it's about
00:58:24
some other patients as well. But we were
00:58:26
at the time um John, my mate for John
00:58:29
Bridges was the producer of the project,
00:58:31
the TV show, The Project. Um
00:58:33
>> that's when I first heard about
00:58:35
regular updates.
00:58:36
>> They did. And so John being an
00:58:38
opportunistic what kind of friend does
00:58:40
this by the way? Answer me this Tom.
00:58:42
Like he calls me up and he said, "Oh,
00:58:44
David, I heard you got cancer." Yeah.
00:58:46
can we do a story about it? And I was
00:58:48
like, oh, okay. And actually, can we do
00:58:49
a series and follow you? It was like,
00:58:51
oh, okay. But it was I mean, of course,
00:58:53
you got to do that for your friend, but
00:58:54
it was lovely. So, they did the series.
00:58:56
So, they were getting me to do selfies
00:58:58
and they would send a crew every now and
00:59:00
then over about a year they followed me
00:59:01
and it was wonderful cuz again, it and I
00:59:03
I'm I'm joking about it cuz it was
00:59:04
amazing way again.
00:59:06
>> It helped me so much later because when
00:59:08
I needed help that so many people had
00:59:10
seen stuff on TV, bought into it. And I
00:59:13
remember getting remember like John
00:59:15
getting a a beautiful um little old
00:59:18
lady. It sounds terrible, but he got a
00:59:19
check in the mail when when they found
00:59:21
out that I had spent a million dollars
00:59:22
to go little check from a little old
00:59:24
lady for $20 and said, "Can you please
00:59:26
pass this to David DS because we want to
00:59:27
help him?" And it was that so it was
00:59:29
amazing. But yeah, so because of that,
00:59:31
we were documenting the whole thing. And
00:59:32
my wife's a TV director um by
00:59:34
profession. So, you know, she again, I'd
00:59:37
be lying in the hospital having had a
00:59:39
blood transfusion or whatever and she'd
00:59:41
whip out the camera and get some B-roll.
00:59:43
It's like, so we just have heaps of that
00:59:46
sort of stuff. But, so, so when when
00:59:48
you're filming that stuff and you're the
00:59:49
central character in the story, are you
00:59:51
thinking it's going to be it's going to
00:59:52
be a happy ending that can be shared or
00:59:54
you think it's a love story to your
00:59:55
friends and family?
00:59:56
>> It could have been. Yeah. I mean, it we
00:59:57
we had no idea at the time. Of course,
00:59:59
looking back retrospectively, it's it's
01:00:01
all leading to this beautiful conclusion
01:00:03
with this amazing happy ending, but it
01:00:05
could have been just as easily a story
01:00:07
of, you know, of of something quite
01:00:09
different.
01:00:09
>> So, I hadn't thought about it and but I
01:00:11
also thought it would be useful for my
01:00:13
children and others to see that part of
01:00:15
the journey. There's still, you know,
01:00:16
heaps of that video footage and stuff
01:00:18
like that. I haven't looked at it for a
01:00:20
long time, but they used it. They went
01:00:21
they crawled through it all for that um
01:00:23
doco and and again, and then they sent a
01:00:26
crew with me on some of my trips to
01:00:27
America. um which is really cool as well
01:00:30
and they were there the moment that you
01:00:31
know the doctor said you're cured you
01:00:32
know they were the crew happened to be
01:00:34
there it was just amazing that we had
01:00:36
that all now on documented for us so
01:00:38
yeah mild touch cancer on neon
01:00:40
>> yeah it's great great by the way well
01:00:41
worth a watch um
01:00:43
>> yes so so that moment you're in the room
01:00:44
and you've done all all the you've
01:00:45
exhausted all possibility in New Zealand
01:00:47
and the oncologist says you know um get
01:00:49
your affairs in order you've got 6 to 12
01:00:50
months you should think about how you
01:00:52
spend it
01:00:53
>> what um
01:00:55
>> yeah who's in the room how do you what
01:00:57
do you what do Well, that that
01:00:58
particular moment was really wild. It
01:01:00
was John, my my my best friend, uh,
01:01:04
Brian Bridges, one of my best friends.
01:01:05
Um, my wife Katherine, my brother John,
01:01:07
also called John,
01:01:08
>> and then the the doctor Anna, who's now
01:01:10
a good friend, actually. She's a very
01:01:12
good friend. Um, and it was really tough
01:01:14
because they were all quite emotional,
01:01:15
including Anna, very emotional telling.
01:01:17
Imagine having to tell a patient. I' I
01:01:19
have such sympathy in for doctors in
01:01:21
this scenario where I have to tell you
01:01:24
I've got no more treatment for you but I
01:01:26
know that there might be something
01:01:27
somewhere else you know but I can't get
01:01:28
it you know I talk to doctors about that
01:01:30
all the time but that so that was a
01:01:32
really tough moment of being say
01:01:34
actually let's take this opportunity and
01:01:36
John John was there John Bridges was
01:01:37
there because he was helping document
01:01:39
like he was helping um you know write up
01:01:40
our notes and stuff like that cuz you
01:01:42
it's always good to have a support
01:01:43
person um but yeah it was it was crazy
01:01:46
but that again that was the moment you
01:01:48
almost that it was literally that day
01:01:51
that I connected back with Mike and said
01:01:52
we need help and he start and then it
01:01:54
started us off in a whole another
01:01:55
journey of connecting and finding these
01:01:57
clinical trials and we we got busy
01:01:59
basically which was in that room you're
01:02:01
not like well well I'm fed
01:02:03
>> no no there was a bit of that there was
01:02:05
definitely a bit of oh my god what are
01:02:06
we going to do now but I immediately got
01:02:08
busy and went right and I remember
01:02:09
Katherine telling my my kids we had to
01:02:11
sort of break it to the kids what was
01:02:12
going on and dad she said look dads you
01:02:15
know we've we've lived all around the
01:02:17
world we navigate quite complicated
01:02:18
business things. If there's a solution
01:02:20
somewhere in the world, we'll find it.
01:02:22
Which which was a great vote of
01:02:24
confidence for me. But um but we did
01:02:26
which is amazing through through such
01:02:28
generosity of other people helping. Um
01:02:31
but yeah, that was the way that I dealt
01:02:32
with it was by getting busy, you know,
01:02:34
and going right, okay, let's make a
01:02:36
plan. How if we go to America, how what
01:02:37
about visas? How are we going to pay for
01:02:38
it? You know, how do we travel? It was
01:02:41
it was like assembling your army around
01:02:43
you. And um yeah, quite incredible. And
01:02:45
then my, you know, family and friends
01:02:47
just swung in and helped and it was just
01:02:50
just amazing.
01:02:51
>> Did you think you were going to die?
01:02:53
>> There was times, dear, definitely. Yeah,
01:02:55
there were times, I mean, I sort of,
01:02:57
again, I'm quite optimistic, so I was
01:02:59
always going, "No, no, we're going to
01:03:00
find a pathway." But there'd be other
01:03:01
times I'd go, "What right have I to
01:03:03
think that I'm going to be any different
01:03:04
than anyone else who finds himself in
01:03:06
this situation?" And there were
01:03:07
definitely times where you go that might
01:03:09
not end well, you know, and it and we
01:03:11
have to plan for that, you know, and
01:03:15
think about what will happen for
01:03:16
Katherine and the kids. And it was it
01:03:17
was much harder for Katherine, I think,
01:03:18
in that scenario than it would have been
01:03:20
for me cuz I she's dealing with all
01:03:22
these different versions of future
01:03:23
reality and trying to keep the kids kind
01:03:25
of normal and they're at school and and
01:03:28
for I had the singular task of trying to
01:03:30
get better whereas she had this much
01:03:32
more complicated task. But yeah, as I
01:03:34
say, there were definitely times where
01:03:35
we talked about, okay, what will happen
01:03:36
if I'm not around in a couple of years
01:03:38
time or a year's time? What what will
01:03:39
you do?
01:03:40
>> Yeah. Which is a hard conversation, but
01:03:43
a bonding one. You know, Kath and I have
01:03:45
been married 30 years now and um and
01:03:48
we've got very good rel tight
01:03:50
relationship with our children and our
01:03:51
and you know, we're stronger family unit
01:03:53
for this. I wouldn't want to do it
01:03:55
again. I wouldn't wish that on anyone,
01:03:57
but boy, it brings you together.
01:03:59
>> How was it on the kids?
01:04:00
>> Tough on the kids. Yeah. Tough. they the
01:04:03
youngest ones, you know, the younger
01:04:05
ones, they're not quite following it
01:04:06
when it first starts and it just becomes
01:04:08
part of life and then all of a sudden it
01:04:09
goes, "Oh, hang on." And they sort of
01:04:10
realized how bleak it could be. And
01:04:13
there was definitely uh sort of
01:04:14
post-traumatic stress stuff that
01:04:16
happened for the whole family. And you
01:04:18
know, they still, you know, and for a
01:04:22
long time worried about me, you know,
01:04:23
like what if it comes back and you know,
01:04:25
if I went away, you know, for work or
01:04:27
whatever, oh, they'd be worried.
01:04:29
>> So, it's actually this weird thing. And
01:04:31
I've got this personality where I just
01:04:32
get on and okay next I go on woo, you
01:04:35
know, I'm happy clappy. But it's not the
01:04:37
case for everybody that they're like
01:04:38
that. They they a bit harder to deal
01:04:41
with. So I had to sort of stop myself
01:04:42
after a little while and go I better be
01:04:44
a bit more attentive to other people's
01:04:46
needs, not just my own.
01:04:49
>> So you're in coms with um this guy Mike,
01:04:52
the FISA guy in New York, and he's like
01:04:53
great, we can get you into into Boston
01:04:55
for this experimental thing.
01:04:56
>> Um but it's going to cost a million
01:04:58
bucks.
01:04:59
>> Yeah. He didn't say that. The poor guy.
01:05:00
He he put me in touch. The hospital was
01:05:02
the one who came back and said, "Yeah,
01:05:03
yeah, we think we can get you in." And
01:05:04
they literally sent me this email going,
01:05:06
"It's a million. We think estimated
01:05:08
price $1 million
01:05:09
>> and we want it all up front."
01:05:11
>> Uh,
01:05:12
>> you tell you tell a great joke in that
01:05:14
documentary like, "Oh, can I pay 50%
01:05:15
now, 50%?" Yeah. Yeah. We're not better.
01:05:19
>> Did you actually say that? Yeah, I did.
01:05:21
I did.
01:05:21
>> A great line.
01:05:22
>> Well, we we we met some friends and you
01:05:24
know, like who
01:05:26
one of them had worked in the American
01:05:27
health system. She's American. And she
01:05:29
said, "You know you can negotiate." And
01:05:30
it's like such a foreign concept. I go,
01:05:32
"What do you mean you negotiate?" She
01:05:33
just said, "Tell them you're not going
01:05:34
to pay." What? You can do that? She
01:05:37
said, "Yeah, yeah. Think of it like
01:05:38
Harvey Norman, like, okay, I see that's
01:05:40
your price, but I've got a better price
01:05:41
from someone else, so can I pay you
01:05:42
half?" And all this sort of stuff. So,
01:05:44
we I just cheekily started doing that.
01:05:46
And um yeah, it kind of worked out. They
01:05:48
did, you know, we And then the other
01:05:50
thing is um we needed to get to see the
01:05:52
doctor as soon as possible. Like he
01:05:53
said, "We need you to come to Boston. We
01:05:55
got to do these final tests to make you
01:05:56
absolutely can get in." But they
01:05:58
couldn't he wouldn't give me he couldn't
01:06:00
give me an appointment. The hospital
01:06:01
refused to give me an appointment unless
01:06:02
we transferred like $100,000.
01:06:05
All this sort of stuff went on and then
01:06:06
finally one of the nurses and this is an
01:06:08
amazing story always in the health
01:06:09
system. The nurses one of the nurses got
01:06:12
hold of me by email and she said just
01:06:13
book your trip and I'll I'll make sure
01:06:15
he's got a gap in his diary. If you're
01:06:17
here next Tuesday or whatever um book
01:06:20
your trip. So we just sort of went back
01:06:22
to them, booked the trip, told them,
01:06:23
"Oh, we're going to be there next
01:06:24
Tuesday." And they go, "What? What? No,
01:06:26
we can't. Oh, we haven't received your
01:06:27
payment. Oh, well, we're there next
01:06:28
Tuesday. And um I think I gave him
01:06:31
$10,000 instead of $100,000. This is the
01:06:33
kind of weird negotiations. And then uh
01:06:36
yeah, we had the meeting. And then
01:06:37
basically, and the doctor, he became a
01:06:38
good mate, too, actually. Afterwards, he
01:06:40
said, "The moment you walked into my
01:06:42
room, you know, the hypocratic oath
01:06:44
says, you are my patient." And all that
01:06:46
other stuff about payment, that's the
01:06:48
hospital's problem. That's not my
01:06:49
problem. My problem is you. And once
01:06:51
you're in my care, you're in my care. It
01:06:52
was like a really powerful demonstration
01:06:54
of professional, you know, ethics. So,
01:06:57
he said, "Don't worry about all that."
01:06:58
And then from then on, actually, that's
01:06:59
he kept doing things like that. Okay, we
01:07:01
won't do that test. You don't really
01:07:02
need it. Uh, we'll do one PET scan, not
01:07:04
two. You know, he was, "I'll try and
01:07:06
keep you out of hospital. You can stay
01:07:07
in the apartment across the road.
01:07:09
That'll lower the price." So, everything
01:07:11
he was doing was kind of in my
01:07:12
interests, kind of against his employer.
01:07:14
Hope they're never listening. But
01:07:17
>> I'm just trying to keep cost down as
01:07:18
much as
01:07:18
>> he's just trying to keep the cost down.
01:07:20
That's American health system. It's so
01:07:21
ridiculous. I mean, it still costs
01:07:23
hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it
01:07:24
wasn't the million that they told me it
01:07:26
was going to cost. Yeah.
01:07:27
>> Um there there's a great line. You might
01:07:30
remember it. I I I don't want to attempt
01:07:31
it cuz I'll mess it up, but on that um a
01:07:33
Touch of Cancer documentary about
01:07:34
selling the house.
01:07:35
>> Yeah.
01:07:36
>> Yeah. Can you remember what that line
01:07:37
is?
01:07:37
>> I do. It was It was a conversation
01:07:39
between my wife and I cuz again when we
01:07:41
had this quote of a million dollars and
01:07:42
we just didn't have the money,
01:07:45
>> but we have a we had a home but we
01:07:46
didn't we own it. We still have a
01:07:47
mortgage. you know, Ken um and I were
01:07:50
talking and she said, "Well, we'll just
01:07:51
put the house on the market. We'll sell
01:07:52
the house. That'll get us enough money
01:07:54
maybe to get a deposit or whatever on
01:07:56
this treatment." And I, you know, really
01:07:59
clearly it was late at night. We were
01:08:00
talking about this is the sort of the
01:08:01
day after I'd been diagnosed as as
01:08:04
terminal. And I said, "No, that's you
01:08:07
can't sell the house cuz if we sell the
01:08:08
house, there's no guarantee I'm this
01:08:10
treatment is going to work. could spend
01:08:11
all of this money and then I'll I could
01:08:14
still die and then you'll spend the rest
01:08:17
of your life broke and penalous with the
01:08:19
kids. And she said, you know, that's not
01:08:21
the worst case scenario, David. The
01:08:22
worst case scenario for me is we don't
01:08:25
sell the house. We know you'll die.
01:08:28
That's what we've just been told. And
01:08:29
then she said, I'll spend the rest of my
01:08:31
life wondering what might have been.
01:08:33
>> [ __ ]
01:08:35
I still get a bit teary. Sorry. Cuz it's
01:08:37
like, wow, what a moment in your in your
01:08:39
marriage.
01:08:41
And it was just like far out that was.
01:08:43
And I had to put myself into her
01:08:45
perspective and go, "Yeah, that would be
01:08:46
awful. Imagine." And this is the
01:08:48
scenario. This is why I'm so passionate
01:08:50
about the stuff I do. Thank you for
01:08:51
reminding me. Cuz I meet people like
01:08:54
this today having these conversations
01:08:56
with their partners going, "We can't
01:08:58
afford it, but if we don't do it, this
01:08:59
is going to happen." Then you know what
01:09:01
happens to you and uh and this this
01:09:03
complicated emotional state they find
01:09:05
themselves in. So
01:09:06
>> yeah, so we put the house on the market.
01:09:07
Like that was the the only decision.
01:09:10
Then called up a friend who was a real
01:09:12
estate agent, you know, and and that was
01:09:15
Yeah. horrific as well cuz then suddenly
01:09:17
you're having to tell everyone why we
01:09:18
got house on the market. Oh, cuz of this
01:09:20
incredible. And then people go, "Oh my
01:09:21
god." You know, like you life again. We
01:09:23
were already quite public. Like I'd
01:09:26
already been writing in stuff about
01:09:27
having cancer, but now we're telling
01:09:28
people about our financial problems like
01:09:30
we can't afford it. We haven't got the
01:09:31
money. And and yeah, but it was it was
01:09:34
just such a a moment. Yeah. Again, from
01:09:38
a marriage point of view, we married 30
01:09:39
years. Those that was one of the real
01:09:42
points in our marriage where we came
01:09:43
closer together.
01:09:44
>> Yeah. That um that line in the
01:09:46
documentary, it set me off last night
01:09:47
just out of the blue.
01:09:49
>> Well, I thought like I don't know, maybe
01:09:51
it's a male thing, but I think I'd think
01:09:53
of it the same perspective as you. You
01:09:54
think about the big picture and then um
01:09:56
her line, it's just like a an epiphany
01:09:58
sort of.
01:09:58
>> It is an epiphany of how different
01:10:00
people think and um about and you know
01:10:02
how Katherine had to think. But imagine
01:10:05
her life if if I hadn't done it. And
01:10:08
either it's just awful to think about
01:10:10
all these scenarios. And you know again
01:10:12
I meet people I know people who have
01:10:13
found themselves in those different
01:10:14
scenarios of a selling everything and
01:10:17
still the partner passes away or b not
01:10:19
selling and now going oh my god if only
01:10:21
we got there quicker. if we only could
01:10:23
do this more. And some of the other
01:10:24
people who are involved in this go the
01:10:26
distance challenge for the Malagan
01:10:28
Institute are people I met because of
01:10:29
these situations and they
01:10:31
>> they just want to help like we do.
01:10:35
>> When you started going to Boston, did it
01:10:37
did it feel like um did it feel like
01:10:39
hope or did it feel like the last roll
01:10:40
of the dice?
01:10:41
>> It felt quite funny actually. It was I
01:10:42
feel um it felt like the last roll of
01:10:44
the dice definitely like we were just
01:10:46
like right we're all in again. I'm I'm
01:10:48
just like right let's do it. The
01:10:49
opportunity has presented itself. we
01:10:51
don't get two chances like this. We've
01:10:53
got to go for it. Flying out there.
01:10:55
Catherine came with me the first trip
01:10:56
when it was just the assessment cuz we
01:10:58
just wanted to I've never been to
01:10:59
Boston. Um never spent any time on the
01:11:02
east coast of the US and um and so we
01:11:06
thought well we got to make the most of
01:11:07
this. So we went and visited you know
01:11:09
normalized things for us like what was
01:11:11
quite an abstract idea became concrete.
01:11:13
you could, you know, the hospital's good
01:11:14
and the people are great and the
01:11:15
doctor's really nice and it's quite
01:11:17
similar to what we've done before and
01:11:19
Boston as a city is cool and so we so
01:11:22
that that helped a lot for us both to go
01:11:25
actually I can actually now visualize
01:11:26
myself doing this. It's not so fanciful
01:11:29
so weird like when you're sitting here
01:11:31
in New Zealand and someone says to you
01:11:32
you can go on this clinical trial and
01:11:34
it's this and and you just go I can't I
01:11:36
can't visualize that. I don't know how
01:11:37
that would work. So, so that helped a
01:11:39
lot. But we also had some amazing cool
01:11:42
things that happened. Like we went to
01:11:43
Boston, we went went to the doctor, did
01:11:44
all this thing, and then we thought,
01:11:45
right, we're in Boston. What do we do
01:11:46
now? Go to the Cheers bar cuz it was the
01:11:49
only thing we knew about Boston. So Kath
01:11:51
and I went, we might not ever be here
01:11:53
again, and it might not end well, so
01:11:54
let's go to the Cheers Bar. So we went
01:11:56
to the bar that they shot the, you know,
01:11:57
the comedy chairs in cuz again, bit of a
01:12:00
comedy nerd. It looks nothing, the
01:12:02
inside of it looks nothing like the
01:12:03
outside like the like the movie. But
01:12:05
this is another quick coincidence. I
01:12:06
loved it. I hope you don't mind me
01:12:08
telling you, but we ended up sitting in
01:12:09
this tiny little bar and we're opposite
01:12:11
each other. It's packed and everyone's
01:12:12
around us and Kath and I having dinner,
01:12:14
cheap, shitty, you know, burgers,
01:12:16
whatever that you have. And we were
01:12:17
talking about what had been going on
01:12:18
that day. And we saw the doctor and
01:12:20
we're talking about the scenarios. And
01:12:21
as we finished our dinner, this lovely
01:12:22
old man next to us um turned to us and
01:12:25
he he was about to leave and he said, "I
01:12:27
hope you don't mind. It's almost
01:12:28
impossible not to listen to you." And
01:12:29
he'd been dialing by himself. He said,
01:12:30
"I just heard I understand that you're
01:12:32
going through this cancer and you're
01:12:33
new." And he said, "This is incredible.
01:12:35
my wife's had cancer and I know all
01:12:37
about it and he said, "Look, if you do
01:12:38
end up coming back to Boston, here's my
01:12:40
number and he gave me his number,
01:12:41
Frank." And so anyway, I did end up
01:12:44
going back to Boston. So I called him,
01:12:46
random guy from a bar. And um we've
01:12:48
turned now we're great mates, me and
01:12:50
Frank. I go, I've stayed at his place a
01:12:52
few times. His wife is wonderful. Uh
01:12:54
his, you know, he's in his 90s now,
01:12:56
Frank. And he just he's just this
01:12:58
wonderful guy. He took me to some
01:12:59
basketball games. And so he was just um
01:13:01
that's what happens when you sort of
01:13:03
open yourself up. and then his son and
01:13:05
daughter-in-law have and their son have
01:13:07
come and visited us now and we've kind
01:13:09
of family friends and you know it's it's
01:13:11
amazing. So we we we're just so lucky
01:13:13
that these sorts of things happen again
01:13:15
if you open yourself if you allow
01:13:16
yourself to be open to opportunities
01:13:18
that's what kind of happens.
01:13:19
>> Yeah, that's a thing that's a really
01:13:20
good takeaway.
01:13:21
>> So you do 12 trips to is it just like
01:13:23
once a month? Once a month you go over
01:13:24
>> pretty much.
01:13:26
>> And and and the Karti treatment like
01:13:28
what is it?
01:13:28
>> Oh, cool. Here we go. Here's the Karti.
01:13:30
So Karti cell therapy. So essentially um
01:13:33
it's I had cancer and the way that we
01:13:35
predominantly deal with cancer we humans
01:13:38
is uh surgery or radiation or um some
01:13:43
sort of chemical to try and kill it. So
01:13:44
all of those treatments are trying to
01:13:45
kill the cancer or get rid of the cancer
01:13:47
out of your body. And that's the reason
01:13:49
that cancer is still one of the biggest
01:13:51
challenges health challenges is it's so
01:13:53
difficult to do to treat because it's
01:13:54
our own body. It's not a foreign thing
01:13:56
coming in. our own body cells have have
01:13:59
mutated in a way that our immune system
01:14:01
and our and our body just can't handle
01:14:02
it and they're they're growing and
01:14:04
growing and growing and but the the rest
01:14:06
of your body just doesn't notice if you
01:14:08
like but killing it is quite difficult
01:14:11
you know we've all of human history
01:14:13
we've been trying to do it so this CT
01:14:15
cell therapy is a form of immunotherapy
01:14:18
so the idea is that those three things
01:14:20
you know they there's good things that
01:14:21
happen but sometimes it doesn't work in
01:14:23
amunotherapy you're doing something
01:14:25
completely different you're saying
01:14:26
rather than try and kill cancer
01:14:28
Why don't we try and harness the immune
01:14:29
system somehow? So there are lots of
01:14:31
different types of immunotherapies, but
01:14:33
the one that seems to be really showing
01:14:34
a lot of promise is this thing called
01:14:36
car T- cell therapy. So TE-C cells are
01:14:39
part of everyone's immune system. We've
01:14:41
all got them. When you cut your hand and
01:14:43
you get a slight red thing or when you
01:14:45
get a cold and you get sort of sore
01:14:47
under the arms or you get a bit weepy,
01:14:48
that's your immune system working. The
01:14:50
tea cells are going around and they're
01:14:51
finding infection and they dup
01:14:54
replicating themselves and and doing
01:14:56
their job. And they do an amazing job of
01:14:57
it as I said earlier. So the idea is
01:15:00
instead of trying to kill cancer, could
01:15:02
we harness those tea cells if they knew
01:15:04
what cancer looked like maybe they could
01:15:06
do the job of killing the cancer. So
01:15:07
what we so the all the sort of treatment
01:15:10
uh research went into can we retrain tea
01:15:13
cells to kill cancer and that's what CT
01:15:16
cell therapy is and it sort of started
01:15:17
about 20 20ish years ago in the states
01:15:20
with some early early research. um it it
01:15:23
hit the mainstream maybe sort of 8 to 10
01:15:25
years ago like I was one of the first
01:15:26
clinical trials in humans um and it and
01:15:30
it's proven to be very very successful
01:15:32
particularly for blood cancers so
01:15:34
training the immune system so the way
01:15:35
they do it they take out the tea cells
01:15:36
out of the body u which is basically
01:15:38
like giving blood and then they
01:15:40
genetically re-engineer those tea cells
01:15:42
put a little bit of extra um DNA into
01:15:45
the cells or RNA and and it it makes the
01:15:47
te- cell kind of recognize the cancer by
01:15:50
by training it what cancer looks like it
01:15:52
has a little receptor on the outside of
01:15:53
these tea cells and then when they put
01:15:55
them back in the body it's like a little
01:15:57
Pac-Man running around. It can now see
01:15:59
cancer cells and it just does what it
01:16:01
what it normally trained to do. It just
01:16:02
goes and kill them. Goes and attaches to
01:16:04
them, sends them a little signal that
01:16:06
the cells self-destruct basically. But
01:16:09
because it's a living treatment, your
01:16:11
own tea cells in your own body doing
01:16:13
what they're basically normally doing.
01:16:15
It's very kind of elegant. It's very um
01:16:17
simple sounding. But the technology and
01:16:20
the science behind it is incredible. You
01:16:21
know, you are genetically re-engineering
01:16:24
human cells in a way that can't
01:16:26
replicate. These cells are just, you
01:16:28
know, wouldn't exist um unless they were
01:16:30
back inside the same body they've been
01:16:31
taken from. Um but that's why it's so
01:16:33
expensive cuz it's like literally cellby
01:16:35
cell genetic modification. It's um you
01:16:38
know a lot of testing and safety and
01:16:40
things like that. So the most of the
01:16:42
treatments that have been happening in
01:16:44
the world have done by these global
01:16:45
farmer companies in other in other
01:16:47
countries and the massive you know big
01:16:49
corporates doing this. It's a billions
01:16:51
of dollars of research going into it. Um
01:16:55
and so little countries like New Zealand
01:16:57
are never going to get that stuff. You
01:16:58
know we just we're not a 5 million
01:17:00
population does not make sense for them
01:17:02
to bring that treatment to New Zealand.
01:17:03
It's too expensive. Um which is why
01:17:06
again the Malagan Institute is so
01:17:07
important. That's why I'm so passionate
01:17:10
about this. There is no other choice.
01:17:12
We'll always be going to China or
01:17:13
America or whatever for treatment unless
01:17:15
we can do this sort of stuff ourselves.
01:17:18
>> What would it cost? How much would it
01:17:19
cost to bring it here?
01:17:20
>> Well, the
01:17:23
Yeah. Well, so at the moment patients
01:17:25
are spending about between $400 and a
01:17:27
million. $400,000 and a million dollars
01:17:29
each and that's plus travel and stuff.
01:17:32
to do it in New Zealand. The clinical
01:17:34
trial we we're doing at the Malagan
01:17:35
Institute is going to cost us around 20
01:17:37
million and that that will treat 60
01:17:40
patients. Um, and we're we're about
01:17:43
2/ird of the way through that. So that
01:17:44
20 million is
01:17:46
already good value. Um, as you can see,
01:17:49
it's a lot cheaper than what we're
01:17:50
spending overseas, but it'll quickly get
01:17:52
a lot cheaper because once we've scaled
01:17:54
up manufacturing, you know, the the
01:17:56
Malagan Institute's got a spin out
01:17:57
company called Biora that is going to
01:18:00
create a manufacturing plant in Christ
01:18:01
Church that will bring the price down.
01:18:04
Um, having more patients with more
01:18:06
different types of cancer use it will
01:18:08
bring the price down. So, everything
01:18:09
everything means that we are much more
01:18:11
in control of our own destiny. And you
01:18:12
could get you could get it down to under
01:18:14
the public system, we think it could be
01:18:16
free. Um, I mean, I I'm not the Minister
01:18:19
of Health yet, but um, watch this space,
01:18:22
but um, but it's a joke, by the way. Um,
01:18:26
but but you can see why it makes a hell
01:18:28
of a lot of sense to do this in house in
01:18:29
New Zealand. You the New Zealand
01:18:31
government today is spending money
01:18:32
quietly sending people overseas,
01:18:34
spending millions of dollars at a time.
01:18:36
If they just spent that in New Zealand,
01:18:37
we could treat, you know, dozens more
01:18:39
patients than than we can at the moment.
01:18:41
So, yeah. So, it it it could get to the
01:18:43
point where it's it's getting close to
01:18:45
free.
01:18:45
>> Mhm. Well, it's just a horrible thought
01:18:47
to think that any New Zealander is dying
01:18:49
just because they don't have the means
01:18:50
or the money to get some treatment that
01:18:52
have an impact.
01:18:53
>> Well, this is the inequity issue that we
01:18:55
often see that is there are treatment
01:18:56
options available. There's kitrudas or
01:18:58
there's you can go over and get um
01:19:00
>> uh deratusab or you know there's these
01:19:02
drugs that are amazing but you have to
01:19:03
go overseas to get them or you have to
01:19:05
buy them privately or whatever. So
01:19:07
there's just this inequity that forms
01:19:08
really quickly and when you're in the
01:19:11
position and you need it, you know, I
01:19:13
have no debate. Go for it. If you've got
01:19:14
the money, go for it, buy it, whatever.
01:19:15
But we need to set up a system that it
01:19:17
does not require me to have a
01:19:19
high-profile, you know, a lot of people
01:19:21
putting money into a give a little
01:19:22
account, you know, the ability for me to
01:19:24
travel. All of those things are such
01:19:25
barriers for people that we have to make
01:19:28
it more equitable. And um and that's
01:19:30
why, you know, people like me need to
01:19:32
get involved because I had the privilege
01:19:34
to be able to have all those things that
01:19:36
got me the treatment.
01:19:37
>> Um but not not other many other people
01:19:40
don't have that. So if people like me
01:19:41
don't stand up for them, who's going to?
01:19:43
Also, there's a lot of shy private
01:19:44
people. So, there's a lot of people that
01:19:46
really don't want to die, but they'd
01:19:47
probably rather die than have like a big
01:19:49
fuss mate about them, like a give a
01:19:50
little page or
01:19:51
>> I've met so many patients like that. I
01:19:53
mean, because I'm quite visible still.
01:19:55
Um, if you Google cancer, you'll
01:19:57
probably find me pretty quickly. Um,
01:19:59
>> but I get lots of people contact me and
01:20:00
a lot of it is that exact scenario of I
01:20:03
I can't go over. I don't know. I've
01:20:04
never been overseas, you know,
01:20:06
literally. Um, or I don't know how to
01:20:08
find that amount of money and I'm not
01:20:09
going to ask anyone for money, you know.
01:20:10
So,
01:20:11
>> pride.
01:20:11
>> Yeah. pride or or shyness or you know
01:20:14
whatever. So many reasons all valid and
01:20:16
I'm not debating them but um that's why
01:20:19
the system has to change. You can't rely
01:20:21
on individuals selling you know literal
01:20:23
tin cans outside their house to try and
01:20:25
raise a little bit of money to go
01:20:26
overseas or or give a little which is
01:20:28
not a sustainable way to run a health
01:20:30
system. And if you step back and go
01:20:32
actually what's you know it makes
01:20:33
business sense if you like for New
01:20:35
Zealand too. There's a societal benefit.
01:20:37
We're spending a hell of a lot of money
01:20:39
on uh a small number of people to try
01:20:41
and you know do bone marrow transplants
01:20:43
or whatever it would be. If we could get
01:20:45
early interventions and early testing
01:20:47
and better treatments, yes uh the cost
01:20:50
per patient might look high at the
01:20:52
beginning, but actually when you take it
01:20:53
all into account, it makes a hell of a
01:20:54
lot of sense to do it. So that's the
01:20:55
kind of arguments that um we're working
01:20:57
with through with um government at the
01:20:59
moment.
01:20:59
>> Yeah. So your personal experience with
01:21:02
KT treatment, what's it like? It sounds
01:21:04
like it's just a blood test. Yeah. Does
01:21:05
it knock you out or not really?
01:21:07
>> Does it It does a little bit. Yeah. I
01:21:09
mean, it's not trivial. Um and it's when
01:21:11
I did it, it was quite experimental. So,
01:21:13
it was there was no guaranteed outcome,
01:21:14
but it but yeah, the the experience of
01:21:16
it is a lot simpler than a normal cancer
01:21:19
um chemotherapy or whatever
01:21:20
chemotherapy. Most of the way that
01:21:23
cancer patients feel really bad is
01:21:24
because of the treatment, not because of
01:21:26
the cancer. You know, chemotherapyy's
01:21:27
got awful side effects. Um whereas this
01:21:30
doesn't have as many side effects. And
01:21:31
in fact, all the time they're getting
01:21:32
fewer and fewer. the the I I had
01:21:35
virtually no side effects from it. So,
01:21:36
it was yeah, you go in, give blood,
01:21:38
which sounds trivial, but it took six
01:21:39
hours and you can't move your arm, so
01:21:41
it's not nothing. Um, but then they send
01:21:44
them off to a lab and then you've got
01:21:45
like I had two weeks and this is going
01:21:47
back me and Katherine were in Boston and
01:21:48
we were going, "Oh, go to the art
01:21:50
galleries." And, you know, we had a
01:21:51
great time.
01:21:53
So, so we just were waiting for the for
01:21:55
the blood to come back. When the blood
01:21:56
comes back, it's an injection. Um, you
01:21:59
would have seen it on the doco. Very
01:22:01
kind of underwhelming in some ways. They
01:22:02
just bring in this little chili bin,
01:22:04
open it up, dry ice everywhere. That's
01:22:06
the most dramatic thing that happens.
01:22:07
Apart from that, it's really boring. Um,
01:22:09
and then they just inject it back in,
01:22:11
and then it's like, okay, now what? You
01:22:13
just wait. And you normally, you know, I
01:22:15
was supposed to go into a hospital room
01:22:16
and wait, but they let me stay in the
01:22:18
hotel over the road. As I say, the
01:22:19
doctor was amazing. So, as long as
01:22:20
you're just right across the road
01:22:22
>> and if anything goes wrong, get back in
01:22:24
as quickly as you can. Um, but that
01:22:26
saves like, you know, $5,000 a day on
01:22:28
hospital in in US. But yeah, so the
01:22:31
experience was great. And then sort of
01:22:32
30 days later, um, they do a test. In
01:22:35
the meantime, I felt like I had the flu.
01:22:37
Like, cuz that's again the way the
01:22:39
immune system works. It's the same
01:22:40
symptoms. It's, you know, you get puffy,
01:22:42
you get sore under the arms, you get a
01:22:44
little bit sort of we, you know, drippy
01:22:46
nose or whatever because it feels like
01:22:49
the flu because it's the same mechanism
01:22:51
of action that's happening inside. And
01:22:53
then that goes away. And it was like,
01:22:54
"Wow, that was pretty mild." You know,
01:22:56
which is ironic cuz I called it a mild
01:22:58
touch of the cancer cuz when I was first
01:22:59
diagnosed, I felt like I had a mild flu
01:23:01
and that was how I got diagnosed. And
01:23:02
then this treatment was like a mild flu
01:23:04
again.
01:23:05
>> So all this all these sort of synergies.
01:23:07
>> Um but yeah, so from a patient point of
01:23:09
view, very very different.
01:23:10
>> Yeah.
01:23:11
>> So that year flying between New Zealand
01:23:13
and Boston 12 times, did you
01:23:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. What was what was it like?
01:23:16
Did it just feel like your life was in
01:23:17
limbo? Did you feel like you were
01:23:18
getting better?
01:23:19
>> Definitely. Oh, I definitely felt
01:23:20
getting better. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean it
01:23:22
was definitely the life in limbo. Thank
01:23:23
God it was a nightmare. I mean, I look
01:23:25
at it now and go, "How did I do that?
01:23:26
That was nuts." Like, what were you
01:23:28
doing between travel?
01:23:29
>> I was working. I went back to work and
01:23:31
again, my boss was amazing and I'm I'm
01:23:33
very blessed that um have a great team
01:23:35
and everything. And I So, I wasn't on
01:23:37
full duty, so I was able to to just
01:23:39
take, you know, uh a few days off for a
01:23:42
week. Some of the trips were I would try
01:23:44
and hook some work stuff into it and
01:23:45
and, you know, u make it sort of
01:23:47
beneficial and but other times I was
01:23:49
just there and back. I'd already been
01:23:50
there sort of a month ago and I needed
01:23:52
to go back and I could have stayed over
01:23:54
there for the whole time but you know
01:23:56
I've got a family and a life and a job
01:23:57
and stuff and so there were it was just
01:24:00
so such an imposition and again this is
01:24:02
going back to why it's so important to
01:24:04
have it in a place like New Zealand. Not
01:24:05
only is the money crazy and the access
01:24:07
crazy but there's no way most people
01:24:09
could do that. I was just incredibly
01:24:10
privileged again to have a job that was
01:24:13
already related to international travel
01:24:15
so I could kind of hook a bit of job
01:24:16
stuff in a and a and a organization that
01:24:18
said it's okay if you take an extra
01:24:20
couple of days don't worry about it um
01:24:22
you know take time off in L or whatever.
01:24:24
Um so yeah just just so blessed to be
01:24:27
able to have that experience.
01:24:29
>> Great air points by the way.
01:24:32
Everyone asks you what's your ear points
01:24:34
like great points.
01:24:35
>> You end up with a lot of banged ears.
01:24:36
>> I did I've got like 12 banked ears now.
01:24:39
pros and cons.
01:24:39
>> Honestly, yeah, it's pros and cons.
01:24:41
Yeah.
01:24:41
>> Yeah. A million bucks. Yeah. You got um
01:24:45
>> Yeah. Do you get progress reports along
01:24:47
the way that like, oh, the cancer is
01:24:49
dying or or you don't know until
01:24:51
>> it's actually quite dramat? No, it was
01:24:52
actually quite dramatic. Um and this is
01:24:54
again a bit of my choice. But the the
01:24:57
from the day they give you the
01:24:58
treatment, which is just again a single
01:25:00
injection. You're not getting any more
01:25:01
treatment from then on. It's just
01:25:02
monitoring. 30 days later, they said it
01:25:05
looks like all the cancer's gone. So you
01:25:07
actually you're in remission. It's 30
01:25:10
days. It's amazing. And but they can't
01:25:12
call you cured for quite a bit longer
01:25:14
after that a couple of years or
01:25:15
whatever. But so the treat the the trips
01:25:17
back after that were purely for the
01:25:19
clinical trial to get data. It wasn't
01:25:22
for me. There was no medical benefit to
01:25:23
me. And the doctor even said to me after
01:25:26
one or you know the first trip or two he
01:25:28
said you know you don't have to come
01:25:29
back. Like if you don't come back
01:25:31
nothing will happen medically to you.
01:25:33
You'll be fine.
01:25:34
>> And I said oh yeah but what will happen
01:25:35
to my data? And he said, "Oh, we just
01:25:37
we'll take it out of the trial results."
01:25:38
And I went, "Well, that's a bit crap,
01:25:39
isn't it?" Like the deal is you give me
01:25:42
the treatment, you get the data, which
01:25:43
helps with the trial results, which
01:25:45
help, you know, get this thing into
01:25:46
market. So, I'll come back. So, so I
01:25:48
kept going back, but there was, as I
01:25:49
say, no clinical benefit. Um, I was
01:25:52
doing CT scans or PET scans. I was doing
01:25:54
blood tests and things like that, but
01:25:56
they were they were not telling me
01:25:58
anything new from from 30 days in. two
01:26:01
years later they said you know given
01:26:03
that you've had two years and none
01:26:04
nothing you you we'll call you cured
01:26:07
>> so that was a beautiful thing but they I
01:26:08
didn't need to have done all that stuff
01:26:10
in the middle it was just my choice
01:26:11
>> why after everything you've been through
01:26:13
why did you keep going back
01:26:14
>> I felt this obligation again I've maybe
01:26:16
I'm brought up in a Catholic guilt
01:26:19
environment I've always got this thing I
01:26:21
said I'd do it I'm going to do it though
01:26:23
>> yeah it's really noble but I mean no no
01:26:25
one could hold it against you
01:26:26
>> know and the even they say the doctor
01:26:28
even said don't worry about it but I
01:26:29
knew that they only had a I think it was
01:26:31
100 patients doing the trial. My result
01:26:34
was really good. It would skew the
01:26:36
results if I didn't, you know, they
01:26:38
would have to take my own data out. So,
01:26:39
I've I felt this obligation, moral
01:26:41
obligation to to do it.
01:26:43
>> Um, yeah. And I and I stand by that. I
01:26:45
would still do that. And it's important
01:26:47
to do the things you say you're going to
01:26:48
do.
01:26:48
>> Yeah.
01:26:49
>> Yeah.
01:26:49
>> Hearing you've been cured, what was that
01:26:51
moment like?
01:26:51
>> That was pretty cool.
01:26:52
>> Yeah,
01:26:53
>> that was pretty cool. We captured it on
01:26:54
the um on the video, I think some of it.
01:26:56
There was a moment there where I sort of
01:26:58
said to the doctor, "Can I use the C
01:26:59
word?" And he's going, "What?" You know,
01:27:01
Americans don't have a great sense of
01:27:02
use. He was, but what do you mean the C
01:27:05
word? Yeah. Cured. He was like, "Yeah,
01:27:07
oh, okay. Yeah, good." And then I said,
01:27:08
"All right, let's call Katherine." Cuz
01:27:09
she was back here in New Zealand. I was
01:27:10
in the States. So, got her on FaceTime
01:27:12
and as we as as it's dialing, I said to
01:27:14
him, "Okay, Jeff, put on a really sad
01:27:16
face." And he's going, "What?" He's go,
01:27:19
"Yeah, yep." And he's going because he
01:27:20
get quite clicking. So, yeah. Sorry,
01:27:23
Cather. It's great results. It was Yeah.
01:27:26
Anyway,
01:27:27
>> oh, it's so cool. What What did you What
01:27:30
were the big things you learned about
01:27:30
yourself after staring death in the
01:27:32
face?
01:27:33
>> Resilience is a big one. I mean, I'm I
01:27:35
Everyone has this depths that they can
01:27:37
go to. They're not often tested, but um
01:27:40
we are human beings are remarkable about
01:27:44
the extent to which you can um deal with
01:27:46
things. So, there's there's something
01:27:48
there. I think also the power of um
01:27:51
perception and I talk a lot in my talks
01:27:53
about this idea that we we frame up
01:27:56
reality you know things happen facts and
01:27:58
and physical things happen in the world
01:28:00
and we create the reality of what that
01:28:02
means for us so we can create different
01:28:03
realities just by thinking differently
01:28:05
you know when I was in hospital you know
01:28:07
I could have chosen to be a victim of
01:28:09
the situation and feel sorry for myself
01:28:10
the whole time or I could say what what
01:28:12
can I do to be more in control so that
01:28:14
that's quite a there's quite a depth
01:28:16
there um and then optimism
01:28:18
I mean I on my LinkedIn profile you'll
01:28:21
know just now I I describe myself as a
01:28:23
genetically modified optimist but
01:28:25
optimism is a powerful thing and it's
01:28:27
not false you know hope and it's not
01:28:29
hopefully it's not this sort of toxic
01:28:31
positivity that some people talk about
01:28:33
but I do believe but by being by having
01:28:35
a default stance of optimism you are
01:28:38
more open to possibilities you you see
01:28:40
things in a different light you you you
01:28:43
follow things that you might not
01:28:44
otherwise and it does create better
01:28:46
outcomes so I think those are some of
01:28:48
the key things.
01:28:48
>> Yeah. And and I suppose alongside
01:28:51
optimism, it's just holding on to hope.
01:28:52
And without hope, there's not there's
01:28:54
not a lot.
01:28:55
>> Yeah. Yeah. And hope hope with u
01:28:57
momentum, you know, like you've hope
01:29:00
sitting on a in a room and just hoping
01:29:02
something's going to get better won't
01:29:03
probably get you there. But hope married
01:29:06
with some activity or action to get you
01:29:08
towards that. You know, if I had just
01:29:10
hoped that someone would call me out of
01:29:11
the blue and say there's a clinical
01:29:13
trial in Boston, it probably wouldn't
01:29:14
happen. But I was putting myself out in
01:29:16
the world. you know, we're writing
01:29:17
articles, there's a lot of work going
01:29:18
on. We were researching, we put
01:29:20
ourselves in a state where that could
01:29:22
actually turn into something. So, I
01:29:23
think hope without any activity is
01:29:25
probably um a bit of a fool's errand,
01:29:28
but you can actually, you know, generate
01:29:31
uh opportunities by putting yourself out
01:29:33
in the world.
01:29:35
>> Was it a weird transition back to normal
01:29:36
life after that? Like, I'm just
01:29:38
wondering if you come that close to
01:29:39
potential death, if you suddenly it
01:29:42
feels like you should be making the most
01:29:43
of every day. The reality is you've got
01:29:45
this mortgage and
01:29:46
>> Yeah, I do. I live this I live a very um
01:29:49
joyful life, bountiful life at the
01:29:51
moment and a lot of it is driven by this
01:29:54
need to think that I actually have to
01:29:55
make the most of the time available. Um,
01:29:58
you know, again, you it sounds very
01:30:01
deep, but when you've sort of literally
01:30:02
had the terminal diagnosis, you got a
01:30:04
less than a year to live, you got 6
01:30:05
months to live, whatever. You you think
01:30:07
very differently when it changes about
01:30:08
what's the value of time and what are
01:30:10
you going to do and what's your legacy
01:30:13
that you want to leave. It's not about
01:30:15
have you got a jet ski and, you know, a
01:30:17
bigger car than someone else or
01:30:18
whatever. It's about what what can you
01:30:20
do to make other people's lives better
01:30:22
and easier and what make the world a
01:30:24
better place and all that. It sounds
01:30:25
very again highutin, but to me it's
01:30:28
really important. You know, I step back
01:30:29
and and often think is this is this the
01:30:31
right thing? Could this be what's the
01:30:33
best outcome I can help create here? Um,
01:30:36
and I'm blessed to be able to be in a
01:30:38
position to do that. Again, there's a
01:30:39
privilege here. I've got, you know, I've
01:30:40
got a a great job and great people
01:30:43
around me, supportive, loving family.
01:30:45
I'm in a I'm in a privileged position if
01:30:47
I don't use that in the right way to
01:30:50
help other people. You know, there's
01:30:52
days when I just go, "Oh god, here we go
01:30:53
again. we're trying to raise more money
01:30:54
for the Malagan shoot. Oh god, I've got
01:30:56
to go and walk 200 km for this bloom and
01:30:59
why did I say I would do this again? Oh,
01:31:01
this is nuts. Or or you know, I find
01:31:03
myself presenting the same story again.
01:31:06
>> Um but if you if I don't, then who's
01:31:09
going to?
01:31:10
>> Yeah, but it's funny how it'd be very
01:31:11
easy for like a couple of years or even
01:31:13
5 years afterwards to think, oh, you
01:31:15
know, I'm lucky to be here. Don't sweat
01:31:16
the small stuff. Make the most of every
01:31:18
day. But then after a while it's like
01:31:20
you just fall back into your old habits,
01:31:22
old patterns, old routines.
01:31:23
>> I do. I mean I I I still I'm back to
01:31:26
some of those old habits, old routines.
01:31:27
I'm sure. Um again, we should get my
01:31:29
wife on here. She'll tell you what I'm
01:31:31
but but I think it's hopefully now with
01:31:33
bit more purpose and and um and because
01:31:35
I'm so involved with
01:31:37
>> the Malagan Institute and Blood Cancer
01:31:39
New Zealand and and the Well Foundation,
01:31:41
which is the charity for the Northshore
01:31:42
Hospital. So I've kind of got myself
01:31:44
embedded in the in the parts of the
01:31:45
system that I think I can have an impact
01:31:47
on. It's kind of part of my normal life
01:31:49
now. And um and even in my in my jobs,
01:31:52
it's sort of agreed that I'm going to go
01:31:54
and disappear and do stuff like that in
01:31:55
the cancer world every now and then. You
01:31:57
know, tomorrow I'm taking a day off work
01:31:59
and I'm going down to Christ Church for
01:32:00
the blessing and opening of the new
01:32:03
Karti facility that they're that um it's
01:32:05
not the opening, it's the it's the
01:32:07
they're starting work on it and um and
01:32:09
they've asked me to kind of MC it cuz
01:32:11
that's one of the things I can do. So I
01:32:12
said, "Yeah, I can help with that." And
01:32:13
that means they don't have to pay an MC.
01:32:15
Sorry, Jason Gun, you're not going to
01:32:16
get that gig.
01:32:18
>> It's all right. He's doing all right.
01:32:19
He's doing all right.
01:32:21
>> The cats the gigs. Leave them to me.
01:32:22
>> Um, what about the term survivors guilt?
01:32:26
>> Yeah.
01:32:26
>> Is that something you
01:32:28
>> Yes. It's interesting. I've get I do
01:32:30
think about this a lot. I do have a
01:32:32
surviv the survivor's guilt is this
01:32:34
concept that you know you and
01:32:35
particularly me I see other patients who
01:32:37
don't get that outcome. You know I'm
01:32:38
very
01:32:40
yeah as I say very visible. I get
01:32:43
patients and their families calling me,
01:32:45
you know, once or twice a week for the
01:32:46
last eight years. So, how many hundreds
01:32:47
of people is that? And I definitely meet
01:32:49
people who don't survive. You know, I've
01:32:52
been to lots of funerals and they are
01:32:55
often not that different than me, you
01:32:57
know, personal life situation, whatever.
01:32:59
Um, so you do realize every one of those
01:33:02
helps you realize the luck that came
01:33:04
along on that journey and the
01:33:06
opportunities that were presented to to
01:33:08
us and the people that helped us. And so
01:33:10
yeah, it does create. I'm not sure it's
01:33:12
a guilt thing cuz guilt means sort of
01:33:14
that I did something wrong, but it's
01:33:16
definitely an obligation thing. Like
01:33:18
this is part of what drives me is very
01:33:20
much this, right? I can't I can't sit
01:33:22
back and go, well, I'm all right, mate.
01:33:24
You know, pull up the ladder, you're on
01:33:26
your own. If I'm in a position to help
01:33:27
someone else, I'd like to be able to do
01:33:29
that.
01:33:29
>> Yeah.
01:33:30
>> So yeah.
01:33:30
>> Yeah. What you're doing now is sort of
01:33:32
on a a bigger scale what you were doing
01:33:33
by going back to Boston when you didn't
01:33:35
have to anymore.
01:33:36
>> Yeah. Exactly. It's the same deal. But
01:33:38
really when it's like like when they
01:33:40
first asked me to help out raising the
01:33:41
Malagan said like we want to raise some
01:33:42
money and the first little clinical
01:33:44
trial round was just a small clinical
01:33:46
trial and they said we need to raise
01:33:48
some money and how much could you raise
01:33:50
could you raise a million dollars and I
01:33:51
went oh my god a million dollars that's
01:33:53
a like a resonant number cuz it's the
01:33:54
same number I was told yeah I'll raise a
01:33:56
million dollars. I thought how the hell
01:33:57
am I going to do this? I've never raised
01:33:58
like but we we did it and that was the
01:34:01
first thing and I thought oh good I'm
01:34:02
done. I've kind of washed away my guilt.
01:34:05
I am now free. And then they then the
01:34:07
Malagan guys come back. Oh, we're going
01:34:08
to do this next one. It's going to cost
01:34:10
20 million. Do you want can you help
01:34:11
out? It's like of course I can. I don't
01:34:14
know how you raise $20 million. But um I
01:34:16
mean they've got a great team there that
01:34:18
do most of the work. I don't have to do
01:34:19
anything really. But just turn up and
01:34:20
talk to people. But it is um it is.
01:34:23
Yeah. And I don't think that'll be the
01:34:24
end of it. I think there'll be something
01:34:26
else will pop out.
01:34:27
>> Yeah.
01:34:27
>> Yeah. 100 million.
01:34:28
>> That's right. Yeah.
01:34:29
>> Do you do you feel um much different to
01:34:32
how you did 10 years ago? How are you
01:34:34
the same? And how are you the how are
01:34:35
you different?
01:34:35
>> Um I'm more I'm more of an intense
01:34:38
version of myself I reckon. I was asking
01:34:40
my kids this actually. They said you're
01:34:42
like a concentrated version. So yeah,
01:34:44
same sort of positive energy, love doing
01:34:47
stuff. Um I'm probably less stressed
01:34:51
than I used to be in terms of it's
01:34:54
little things will stress me out like I
01:34:56
can't find a container lid.
01:34:58
But but I don't get too hung up on big
01:35:00
thing, you know. Not too It takes a lot
01:35:02
to stress me out these days. and work
01:35:04
stuff I can usually navigate through and
01:35:05
you know so I'm I've leared you know the
01:35:08
boundaries of that sort of stuff. Um but
01:35:10
I guess I spend I and I probably spend
01:35:12
more time I I say yes to a lot of stuff.
01:35:14
That's probably the thing that's changed
01:35:15
more is I'm more I'm more involved in
01:35:18
lots of different things which I have to
01:35:20
sometimes just step back and go is it
01:35:21
the right thing? Is it the best use of
01:35:22
my time? But
01:35:24
>> mostly it is
01:35:25
>> random podcasts.
01:35:28
I I appreciate you being here today.
01:35:30
This is really cool. I love it.
01:35:31
>> Are you um
01:35:32
>> Yeah. Do you you made a joke before
01:35:34
about being the Minister of Health. Do
01:35:35
you have any interest in politics? I was
01:35:37
I was recently asked by one of the
01:35:39
political parties if I would get into
01:35:40
politics and I said no thank you. Um I'm
01:35:43
not it's saying yes to things. I mean I
01:35:46
would love to magically. I would love to
01:35:47
be Steven Joyce if you're listening.
01:35:49
Joyce Joyce got the phone call and then
01:35:50
he was on the list and then he was the
01:35:52
minister and I went can I have that? If
01:35:53
I did that I'd be fine. I don't want to
01:35:55
go through the actual political like
01:35:57
standing around handing out leaflets.
01:35:59
And the other problem is I'm not
01:36:01
completely politically aligned. Like I I
01:36:03
I have friends across the political
01:36:05
spectrum. I'm friends with multiple
01:36:07
ex-ministers and ministers from
01:36:08
different political parties. I admire
01:36:11
many of them. Uh and I I I think about
01:36:14
the policies that they have and I can't
01:36:17
see a particular one thing I'd tie
01:36:19
myself to cuz I um so I'm not political
01:36:22
enough to be in politics if it were. And
01:36:25
also I think you I can probably have
01:36:26
more influence outside the system than
01:36:28
>> than in it at the moment.
01:36:30
>> Yeah,
01:36:30
>> I had Sir Rod Rury on the podcast who's
01:36:32
>> Rod's a great man.
01:36:33
>> A great man. He he said the same sort of
01:36:34
thing. He can have more impact by not
01:36:36
being in politics than by actually being
01:36:38
in
01:36:38
>> help have a billion dollars up sleeve by
01:36:39
the way. But Rod's a great guy. He's a
01:36:41
good friend and you know and he's doing
01:36:42
some incredible work and I was so
01:36:43
pleased to see him get the New Zealander
01:36:45
of the year and his nighthood and things
01:36:46
because
01:36:47
>> yes, Zero was amazing and all of the IT
01:36:50
stuff before that, but what he's doing
01:36:51
now is remarkable and that's a really
01:36:52
good example. He's doing at scale the
01:36:54
sort of thing that I would have loved
01:36:55
to. And I keep jokingly saying to him,
01:36:57
"If you got a job, Rod, I'd come and
01:36:58
work for you." Um, but he doesn't employ
01:37:00
anybody anymore. So, but he gave me a
01:37:04
tour of his house in his his amazing
01:37:06
>> his basement. Could you
01:37:07
>> Do you like the Stargate portal?
01:37:08
>> Oh my god, it's incredible. It's
01:37:10
incredible. It is cool. It's like um
01:37:13
It's like a 20-year-old boy just got
01:37:15
given a billion dollars or something.
01:37:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. But it's good. But it's I
01:37:18
don't I I love it cuz he's all he's
01:37:21
doing all that and it's cool and he's
01:37:22
got the amazing cars and stuff which we
01:37:24
probably shouldn't talk too much about
01:37:25
anyway. But he's also doing incredible
01:37:26
things building a hospital. He's he's
01:37:29
you know um cycle trails. He's
01:37:31
reforesting the hills behind his houses.
01:37:34
Like he's doing amazing things for the
01:37:36
local community as well. So I don't
01:37:37
begrudge anyone spending them spending
01:37:39
money on themselves
01:37:40
>> if they're also doing all that other
01:37:42
stuff. I do get pissed off when I see
01:37:44
very rich people who are so don't seem
01:37:46
to have that kind of same sort of social
01:37:47
obligation that he
01:37:48
>> seems and and it must be hard because
01:37:50
you know you talked before about needing
01:37:51
you know $20 million or $10 million for
01:37:53
this project or whatever and um I can't
01:37:55
imagine how many emails you know the
01:37:57
likes of Rod Ry or Sir Peter Beck or the
01:38:00
Mobres get
01:38:01
>> um yeah cuz the more the more money
01:38:03
you've got I suppose you the bigger a
01:38:05
target you have on your
01:38:06
>> back and many of them are amazing you
01:38:08
know those some people give quietly some
01:38:10
people have foundations or family
01:38:11
offices or whatever. And we are blessed
01:38:13
in New Zealand that actually we do have
01:38:14
some incredible people who will give
01:38:16
significance outs of money. I mean, for
01:38:17
this 20 million, 6 million of it came
01:38:19
from one couple, you know, for example.
01:38:21
And it was just uh they're quiet. They
01:38:23
don't want to be necessarily known who
01:38:24
they are, but they they said, "We'll do
01:38:26
this." And then they also are very
01:38:27
clever cuz they're business people. And
01:38:28
they said, "We'll give you six, but you
01:38:30
got to match it. Find the other six to
01:38:31
match it." I was like, "Oh, that that's
01:38:33
actually quite cool cuz you can go to
01:38:34
other people and go, if you give me a
01:38:36
million, I'll actually get another
01:38:37
million." You know, so it's like,
01:38:38
>> yeah,
01:38:39
>> negotiating again. turned into a game
01:38:42
>> a little bit. Yeah.
01:38:43
>> Are you still afraid of death?
01:38:45
>> No. No. I'd be I'd be sad if it happened
01:38:48
tomorrow. Touchwood. Um but it doesn't
01:38:51
worry me. I mean I mean I I hope I've
01:38:53
living a a bountiful and good life and
01:38:56
I'm a good person and all that sort of
01:38:57
stuff and and my you know and I hope
01:39:00
that I can leave would leave things in a
01:39:02
good position for my family uh and for
01:39:04
my friends and stuff. But I'm not I'm
01:39:06
not afraid of it. No. No. If you got
01:39:08
told today you had like three years or
01:39:09
five years left, is there anything you'd
01:39:11
change?
01:39:12
>> Uh,
01:39:14
probably work a little bit less, but no,
01:39:16
I think I'm, you know, I would probably
01:39:18
accelerate. This is probably, sorry,
01:39:20
Katherine, my wife's getting less. I
01:39:21
would go even harder and faster on some
01:39:23
of the things we're doing. You know,
01:39:24
like trying to get this cancer treatment
01:39:25
into New Zealand is a real passion
01:39:28
project for me. Um, but there's also
01:39:31
other stuff that I'm involved in that I
01:39:32
think is really important. The things
01:39:33
that could potentially, you know, really
01:39:35
can change the fabric of our of our
01:39:37
country. Um, and I think there's stuff
01:39:40
that I can still contribute to that. I
01:39:42
would probably go hard at that stuff. I
01:39:43
wouldn't just go and sit on a an island
01:39:45
for I might do that for a week, but not
01:39:48
for 3 years. No.
01:39:49
>> You get the feeling you're you're a
01:39:51
negative relaxer. You got to be doing
01:39:52
something.
01:39:52
>> Yeah. I'm a shocker.
01:39:53
>> Yeah.
01:39:54
>> Yeah. Yeah. Are there are there things
01:39:55
that you you um used to take for granted
01:39:57
that you don't take for granted anymore?
01:39:59
>> Um time with my wife and my family is
01:40:04
things that you know it sounds terrible
01:40:06
e but when you're in your sort of 30s
01:40:07
and you're trying to build a career and
01:40:09
you're trying to you know you think
01:40:12
you're fending you know for your family
01:40:14
and bringing home the bacon and stuff
01:40:15
but actually you're probably distracted
01:40:16
from the from the realities of being a
01:40:18
parent. I think that stuff I don't take
01:40:20
for granted anymore. I love you know
01:40:22
spending time with my family. Um, so
01:40:25
yeah, and Katherine and I in particular
01:40:28
have got closer as we've got older. So
01:40:29
we we spend a lot of time together. Um,
01:40:32
but yeah, and then your health is
01:40:33
another thing you don't take for
01:40:34
granted. You know, your body as you get
01:40:36
a bit older already starts to sort of
01:40:38
creek and grown around you. So you've
01:40:40
got to be thoughtful about what are you
01:40:41
doing to protect your health. And I've
01:40:43
I'm I'm better at that. I still have to
01:40:45
constantly remind myself to exercise
01:40:46
properly and not drink too much and eat
01:40:49
better and whatever, but I'm I'm more at
01:40:51
least I'm having those conscious
01:40:52
thoughts now
01:40:54
>> and acting on the most middle-aged thing
01:40:56
ever. E like you become obsessed with
01:40:58
aging like in your sleep patterns.
01:41:00
>> I haven't bought any Lyra yet. I mean,
01:41:01
that's when I think I really will have
01:41:03
crossed the the entry. But yeah,
01:41:04
>> I'm surprised you haven't. If you and
01:41:05
John Bridges are that close, he's
01:41:07
obsessed with it. He's always in I
01:41:08
reckon he's in Lyra probably 80% of the
01:41:10
time. I'm graciously letting that be his
01:41:12
thing. Otherwise, we'd hang out too
01:41:14
much. So, John, you can have the Lyra
01:41:17
and the wedgies and all that sort of
01:41:19
stuff that you do when But he's I mean,
01:41:20
he's very very fit. He's doing really
01:41:21
well.
01:41:22
>> Um, but no, it's I health is an
01:41:25
important thing. You know, you've really
01:41:26
got to cuz everything can change very
01:41:28
quickly if you're not healthy.
01:41:30
>> Well, as you discovered immediately.
01:41:32
>> Yeah.
01:41:32
>> Just with a a Friday doctor
01:41:35
>> thought I had the flu and then suddenly
01:41:36
it was all went to custard. Yeah. You
01:41:38
you do so much public speaking. You do a
01:41:40
bunch of podcasts. Is there one thing
01:41:42
that you wish more people asked you
01:41:43
about that they don't? Oh.
01:41:47
Um
01:41:50
I love it when people ask me how they
01:41:52
can help or how they can get involved. A
01:41:54
lot of people go, "Wow, you do so much."
01:41:55
I go, "Yeah, I do, but you know, you
01:41:57
could too." Um I'm happy for you to
01:41:59
help. I mean that. But what having said
01:42:00
that, that sounds like I'm blaming other
01:42:02
people. What's been really cool, for
01:42:03
example, we're doing this go the
01:42:04
distance challenge with Malagans. Do you
01:42:06
see me? I'm such a pro dragging it back
01:42:08
to the topic I want to talk about
01:42:09
ignoring your question. But what's been
01:42:11
cool is I went out to a bunch of people
01:42:13
and I said, "Would you join me and join
01:42:15
a team and do some fundraising?" And
01:42:17
man, oh man, it's been great. So many of
01:42:18
them have said yes. They've got involved
01:42:20
their fundraising. Um, so that is cool.
01:42:23
So I love it when people say, "Yeah,
01:42:25
yeah, lean in." Because people just
01:42:26
sometimes need to be asked and shown a
01:42:28
little way forward and then they can get
01:42:29
involved in things like this. But
01:42:30
>> yeah, well anyone that's listening to
01:42:32
this or watching this now, what can they
01:42:34
do?
01:42:34
>> Go the distance. If you Google go the
01:42:36
distance in New Zealand and you'll see
01:42:38
there's this it's going for the month of
01:42:40
April basically all of the money will go
01:42:42
to the Malagan Institute as I say it's
01:42:43
trying to close that gap so that people
01:42:45
don't have to go overseas and don't have
01:42:46
to travel enormous amounts uh and don't
01:42:49
have to spend a lot of money and we can
01:42:52
get this treatment in New Zealand and
01:42:53
again I've just come back to it's not um
01:42:56
this is such a a positive thing we we
01:42:58
talk so often in the health system about
01:43:00
the deficit we have in the health system
01:43:01
and it is we've got big gaps we can't
01:43:03
afford these medications and we wish we
01:43:04
were this and we're this far behind
01:43:06
Australia, whatever. This is something
01:43:07
where we can actually get back and lead
01:43:09
again and um and we're very close to
01:43:12
having it done now. So, we are going the
01:43:14
distance. We're going to have this
01:43:15
clinical trial paid for. I'm going to
01:43:17
finish it by August. We got a couple of
01:43:19
million bucks to go wherever it is and
01:43:21
then we hope that it'll quickly then
01:43:23
make its way into the public health
01:43:24
system.
01:43:25
>> Yeah. You cancer picked the wrong guy,
01:43:28
but also also the right guy. The right
01:43:30
guy. One of my kids said that said, "Oh,
01:43:32
if anyone got cancer, I'm glad it was
01:43:33
you, Dad." It was like what? I said,
01:43:35
"Oh, cuz you could deal with it." Um,
01:43:36
>> you could deal with that. Not only that,
01:43:38
but you've you've done so much for so
01:43:39
many since then.
01:43:40
>> Oh, thank you. I'm still still more to
01:43:42
go. More to go.
01:43:42
>> Yeah. What are your best and worst
01:43:44
habits?
01:43:44
>> Ah,
01:43:46
uh, best habit, my positivity and
01:43:49
optimism. Like I I constantly reframing.
01:43:51
It's now just not even I don't even
01:43:53
consciously do it. I'm always thinking,
01:43:54
okay, what's what's good about this? How
01:43:55
can I make the most of this? What's, you
01:43:57
know, what what's the good thing that's
01:43:58
going to happen? That skills I learned
01:44:00
during hospital actually. you know, two
01:44:02
years of trying to do that to yourself
01:44:03
means it's just sort of a natural habit.
01:44:05
Worst habit is uh I'm not exercising
01:44:09
enough. I'm physically a bit lazy at
01:44:10
times. I've got to force myself. I don't
01:44:12
enjoy it. I enjoy being fit, but I don't
01:44:15
enjoy the the gym and all that sort of
01:44:16
jazz. So, you I know that I've got to do
01:44:19
it more.
01:44:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I probably work too
01:44:21
much, you know, at times there. You
01:44:24
know, my I will definitely have to step
01:44:25
back every now and then and go reset a
01:44:27
little bit. I've just got myself a
01:44:28
little bit too busy again, but
01:44:29
overcommitted. Um yeah,
01:44:31
>> you got a little bit emotional before
01:44:33
when we were talking about um that that
01:44:35
wonderful reframing from with your wife.
01:44:38
Are you um Yeah. Have you become more
01:44:41
emotional since going through what
01:44:43
you've experienced?
01:44:44
>> Yeah, I'm always been quite emotional.
01:44:46
I'm a sook. Yeah. Yeah. Jeep has put on
01:44:47
water ship down and I'll ball like a
01:44:49
child. Um but yeah, I've always been
01:44:52
emotional. I live I I live quite
01:44:54
empathetically, I hope, with other
01:44:56
people. I get quite clued into what
01:44:57
other people are thinking and feeling
01:44:58
and and that can make me quite
01:45:00
emotional. The times I get very
01:45:01
emotional are typically when I see other
01:45:03
people in pain or when I when I know
01:45:05
they're in a really difficult situation.
01:45:07
You there's a few cancer patients that I
01:45:09
deal with and I find it really tough cuz
01:45:12
I know how hard it is for them.
01:45:13
>> Yeah.
01:45:14
>> And they're probably not a good outcome
01:45:16
for them and that makes me really
01:45:17
emotional. Um but but you turn that the
01:45:20
doctor told me this actually cuz I asked
01:45:21
that sort of question to the doctor.
01:45:23
said, "How do you deal with all this
01:45:24
stuff when people are dying on you and
01:45:26
or when you meet someone you know
01:45:28
they're not going to be able to um be
01:45:30
successful?" He said, "You turn that
01:45:32
into something. You turn it into action
01:45:34
or you turn it into uh a resolve to be
01:45:38
better yourself." Like if you wallow in
01:45:40
a negative space, it'll it'll eat away
01:45:43
and get at you and you'll find yourself
01:45:45
like really in a negative thing. But if
01:45:46
you go, "Ah, this another person that I
01:45:49
met and was on a journey with has not
01:45:51
made it and their family are suffering."
01:45:53
Okay, how can we speed up the process to
01:45:56
make sure that doesn't happen again?
01:45:58
>> And so I kind of give use it as fuel. Um
01:46:02
that's a reframing type technique as
01:46:03
well that that I try and use. But it's
01:46:05
not easy to do. It's blooming hard. But
01:46:07
um but it's better than just sitting
01:46:09
there going, "Oh my god, you know,
01:46:10
there's nothing that can be done."
01:46:13
>> Yeah. Rich Rich McCoy's got a quote like
01:46:15
the human brain is wired to think of the
01:46:17
worst case scenario.
01:46:18
>> We're the people that survived.
01:46:20
>> That's right. Think think of like what
01:46:22
what if everything goes wrong, but his
01:46:23
thing is like no what if everything goes
01:46:25
wrong.
01:46:25
>> Right. And it's more often than not, you
01:46:27
know,
01:46:27
>> somewhere in the middle.
01:46:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I often think what's
01:46:29
the best outcome from here? And it often
01:46:31
happens like I would say 90% of the time
01:46:34
>> I start the day I literally do start the
01:46:36
day. It's almost a little mantra of
01:46:38
what's the best thing that's going to
01:46:39
happen today or what's the what are the
01:46:40
what are the positive things that can
01:46:41
happen today? And then you get to the
01:46:43
end of the day and you kind of reflect
01:46:44
back on it. This is sort of again this
01:46:45
is um you know mental wellness type
01:46:48
stuff. I don't I didn't consciously do
01:46:50
it because it was mental wellness but
01:46:51
now I realize it is. What often happens
01:46:53
at the end of the day you go actually
01:46:54
all of that stuff did happen. You know
01:46:56
all of that positive things did happen.
01:46:58
You know that meeting that I thought was
01:46:59
going to be different went better than I
01:47:00
thought. That phone call was easier than
01:47:02
I thought it was going to be. That this
01:47:03
this meeting Dom was great cuz now we
01:47:05
we're mates and we're going to be able
01:47:06
to see each other and that's great. You
01:47:08
know like all this sort of thing. But
01:47:10
that's a really good technique. That's
01:47:12
like when I cuz I do a little bit of
01:47:14
teaching every now and then as part of
01:47:15
my kind of keynote speaking. I'll I'll
01:47:18
give people these little techniques and
01:47:19
and it feels really weird when you first
01:47:21
do it. It's like, you know, doing things
01:47:23
with your left hand when you're normally
01:47:24
right-handed. So forcing yourself every
01:47:26
day to create a little habit.
01:47:28
>> Well, by after a while, not even that
01:47:30
long, a month or so, you will start to
01:47:31
now go, it's just a normal behavior to
01:47:33
go actually by me going into a day
01:47:36
going, what's the best thing that's
01:47:37
going to happen? It actually created
01:47:39
that thing.
01:47:40
>> Incredible. It's like manifestation in a
01:47:41
way.
01:47:41
>> It is. It is. It's not spooky woo woo
01:47:43
hopefully. But it's I think it just puts
01:47:44
you in a position of optimism and
01:47:46
>> uh seeing possibilities in a different
01:47:48
way. So instead of me being uh I I don't
01:47:50
want to do that. It's going to be too
01:47:51
hard. It's like okay now let's walk
01:47:53
towards that and what could what could
01:47:54
happen if it goes well
01:47:56
>> and then and then you almost sort of
01:47:57
steer it that way.
01:47:59
>> I love that. I think that that's so
01:48:01
cool. Did you get that from like a book
01:48:02
or
01:48:03
>> No, I made it up in my brain
01:48:05
>> when I was really good. Well, I keep
01:48:07
thinking if I had more time, I would
01:48:08
love to write a book on on on some of
01:48:10
these mental techniques. A lot of it was
01:48:12
done when I was in hospital and I look
01:48:14
back and retrospectively just, you know,
01:48:16
worked out what I I had been doing,
01:48:18
dressing up my hospital room, all that
01:48:20
kind of stuff. Um reframing, you know, I
01:48:23
remember firmly remember sitting in, you
01:48:25
know, in my hospital room going, I feel
01:48:27
terrible. It's terrible. My emotional
01:48:29
state's terrible. My physical state's
01:48:30
terrible. What could I do that can make
01:48:33
me feel better? And it was like, "Make
01:48:36
your bed
01:48:38
>> or make the nurse laugh the next time
01:48:40
that they come in." Or Katherine would
01:48:42
call me and go, "One of the kids has got
01:48:44
a problem with homework." Oh, okay. Help
01:48:46
them with the homework. You know, like
01:48:48
it was just tiny things that would just
01:48:49
make life a little bit better and feel
01:48:51
like you've done something. And I think
01:48:53
if you can if you that micro habits
01:48:55
become, you know, big impacts when you
01:48:57
do them consistently over time. That's
01:48:59
the 1% rule.
01:49:00
>> You know, people like Richie is a great
01:49:01
example. You know, you don't have to be
01:49:04
100 times better. You just have to be 1%
01:49:06
better
01:49:06
>> and then and then build that habit.
01:49:10
>> You've run out of cards.
01:49:12
>> It's only been an hour and 48 minutes.
01:49:14
>> This has been a great chat. Um,
01:49:17
>> God knows how you're going to turn that
01:49:18
into something useful.
01:49:19
>> Well, I I I um I don't need edit
01:49:21
anything out unless the guest wants it
01:49:23
edited out. I think people will start
01:49:25
listening and it's like a book. If it's
01:49:26
if it's good, they'll they'll keep
01:49:28
listening. If they're not enjoying it,
01:49:29
they'll put it down. But I think um
01:49:30
>> if you've made it this far, you've got
01:49:31
tenacity and resilience. Good on you,
01:49:34
mom.
01:49:36
>> The last question you might struggle to
01:49:38
um answer being um the son of Irish
01:49:40
immigrants with a Catholic background.
01:49:42
>> Are you proud of yourself?
01:49:44
>> Oh,
01:49:46
pride is a sin. Um luckily I'm not
01:49:48
religious anymore. I'm proud of my Yeah,
01:49:50
I'm proud of the things that I could I'm
01:49:53
but the of myself bit's interesting
01:49:55
because of myself is you know assumes
01:49:57
this reality of thing that you did at B
01:49:59
yourself. I'm I I'm lucky and proud that
01:50:01
I've pulled together people that help me
01:50:03
to do stuff and I and I'm very rarely
01:50:05
the only person doing something. Um but
01:50:08
I'm proud of what we are achieving
01:50:09
collectively. The Malagan Institute's
01:50:10
amazing. I'm proud to be part of it. Um
01:50:13
yeah so I think the answer is yes with
01:50:15
that little proviso.
01:50:17
>> Yes with the condition. in the condition
01:50:19
that hopefully doesn't get me sent to
01:50:20
hell.
01:50:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. What do you What do you
01:50:22
think happens when you die?
01:50:24
>> Uh well, it's going to be terrible. I'm
01:50:25
not religious in the slightest. I think
01:50:27
nothing happens when you die. I think
01:50:28
you your
01:50:29
>> your energy is lost and um hopefully
01:50:32
you've left a mark on the universe in
01:50:33
another way, but I'm not.
01:50:34
>> You live live on in the people whose
01:50:36
lives you made impact on.
01:50:37
>> Are you um are you atheist, agnostic?
01:50:39
>> I'm I'm atheist now.
01:50:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Much as my my father would
01:50:43
probably never listen to this. My
01:50:44
father's very religious. Um I'm not at
01:50:46
all. we agree to disagree.
01:50:48
>> Um I I think you can be I think the
01:50:51
conflation between morality and religion
01:50:54
is just so dangerous. You know, I I find
01:50:56
I think I'm a very moral person, a very
01:50:58
ethical person, but not at all
01:51:00
religious. And I see religion sometimes
01:51:01
as being very anti-morality and
01:51:04
anti-ethics. And so
01:51:05
>> I I don't I don't bring the two things
01:51:07
together.
01:51:08
>> I'm I'm the same Catholic a Catholic
01:51:10
upbringing. And when I was old enough to
01:51:11
make my own decisions, I realized you
01:51:12
could be um a bad person and go to
01:51:14
church or a good person and not go to
01:51:15
church or somewhere in between.
01:51:17
>> The best but the best but the best the
01:51:18
best lessons I ever learned were at
01:51:20
school and they were in the religious
01:51:21
studies class at school. And I remember
01:51:24
again this priest, Father Tyat telling
01:51:26
us this thing which I hold dear to
01:51:27
today. He said, "You've got two jobs in
01:51:29
life. One is to define your moral uh
01:51:32
boundaries
01:51:33
uh and create your morality and the
01:51:35
second job is to live by it." M and he
01:51:37
said if you do those two things you'll
01:51:39
be a good person. You don't need that
01:51:42
thrust on you by some external force.
01:51:45
You need to create your moral boundaries
01:51:46
and then you know when you're stepping
01:51:48
outside of them
01:51:49
>> and uh and I've I just I remember that
01:51:51
was probably 15 at the time he taught me
01:51:52
that. It's still something I think about
01:51:53
a lot
01:51:54
>> like be be the the CEO of your own mind
01:51:57
and body.
01:51:57
>> Yeah. Be the best person you can be.
01:51:59
Yeah.
01:51:59
>> I love it. Hey David Downs, this has
01:52:01
been a great chat. Thank you.
01:52:02
>> Thanks so much mate. I'm so glad you
01:52:04
survived and otherwise it would have
01:52:05
been a very boring hour and a half,
01:52:06
wouldn't it?
01:52:09
Um, but I'm so like proud of everything
01:52:12
everything you're doing for people today
01:52:13
and tomorrow that may go through the
01:52:15
same experience you did. It's really
01:52:17
cool. Thank you very much. You're a
01:52:18
great New Zealander.
01:52:19
>> Awesome.
01:52:19
>> Can't believe you're only semi-finalist
01:52:21
for New Zealand.
01:52:22
>> Damn, there's still time. Squeeze me in
01:52:24
next time, judges.
01:52:29
Heat. Hey, Heat.
