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Who is David DS? Ex comedian turned IT guy now bureaucrat and a bit of a cancer patient along the way just for good
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measure. >> Do you think you were going to die? There were definitely times where you go
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that might not end well. >> I made a touch of cancer documentary about selling the house and they
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literally sent me this email estimated price $1 million and we want it all up front. You can't sell the house. We
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could spend all of this money and then I could still die and then you'll spend
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the rest of your life broke and penalous with the kids. And she said that's not
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the worst case scenario. I'll spend the rest of my life wondering what might
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have been. What a moment in your marriage. That line in the documentary has set me off. Eight years of my life
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and we're down to the last few. >> Mate, I'm so glad you survived.
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>> David DS, welcome to my podcast. K. Nice to be here. Thank you. It's great to
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have you here. First, first question. Who is David DS? >> Well, if it was me, um, I guess what,
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how do I describe myself? Ex comedian turned uh, IT guy, now bureaucrat. That's probably it. And a bit of a
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cancer patient along the way, just for good measure. And an author >> and a board director. So so many so many
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hats. Why why ex comedian? What does that mean? >> Well, it's it's a safety net in case I'm
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not funny anymore. I know. I used to be a comedian many years ago. I dropped out
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of uni to become a comedian much my parents disgusted. And then uh and I did that for quite a few years. It was
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great. But then I had to get a serious job like you know to pay the bills and stuff. So I sort of stopped doing any
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kind of formal comedy. But people tell me that I still you know have a bit of that in me. So I yeah when I present and
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things like that I always say ex comedian in case people want to laugh. give them a permission cuz when was the
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last time you did like an actual what you'd call a standup routine? >> I did. It was not that long ago
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actually. I uh late last year so november I think it was and it was um for it was a a charity gig for the
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Malagan Institute. We'll talk about them later I'm sure. But I I roped in old
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friends Jeremy Corbett, Michelle Aort, um Emma Lang, John Bridges and I and uh we had this great night in down in
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Queenstown and Gibson Valley. had a really good night and it was that was classic old school standup you know
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people in front in a microphone standing in front of a crowd telling jokes basically so it was that was great fun
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but I hadn't before that hadn't done it for probably 20 years >> all all those names that you mentioned
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like New Zealand household names when it comes to comedy people that have devoted
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their life to it whereas you've gone off on a more corporate route >> did you did you notice a difference when
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you reunited are you like oh there's levels to the game and >> uh yeah John and I who haven't done it
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for a while and Emma a little bit but we John and I definitely were doing some of
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our old material from literally 25 30 years ago. So, um, but you know, the stuff about fax machines and all those
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really those great gags, uh, it still makes sense. But no, Jeremy and Michelle, you know, they are
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professional comedians and so yeah, they are more match fit than we are. But we still had a great time and the crowd I
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think really liked it. Yeah. Nostalgia. >> Yeah, that's I mean it's there there's
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so many hats that you wear. It's been such a fascinating career or careers. Um, you see CEO of a thing called New
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Zealand Story as well. Yes. >> What's that? >> So that's a government agency. So we are
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um paid for by the government and our job is there's a about 15 of us. So we're a micro agency. Our job is
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basically telling the world about New Zealand in a way that helps them understand there's more than just
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mountains and rivers and lakes and beautiful environment. That's cool stuff. Don't get me wrong. We we love
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that. But we want them to know that there's also great people, there's business, there's innovation, there's
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investment opportunities, all that sort of stuff. So it's basically growing New
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Zealand's uh international reputation. Where do you start? Yeah, you you start
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with the stories of New Zealand actually, like who we are and what we stand for in the world and our history.
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New Zealand's unique. We have uh we are the last place in the world where humans
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settled, for example. Many New Zealanders don't know the stories of our own of our own culture. And if you think
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about New Zealand being the youngest country in the world by definition, the sorts of people that came here, you
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know, had left something behind and they were looking for something better and they were adventurers and explorers and
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navigators, you know, the the early Polynesians who became Mari uh indigenous people and then the the the
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Europeans that came here were incredible and that they left something behind that
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was pretty safe place to be because they were had that adventurous spirit. And if
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you kind of play that forward, you you find New Zealand is a place where, you know, people who think differently, we
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challenge authority. You know, we're quite self um self-reliant. We, you know, we innovate in a different way
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than the rest of the world. And that kind of explains a lot about New Zealand's story. So when you start
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talking about the stories of New Zealand, first place in the world to give women the vote, first place in the
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world where there was a labor union, the 40-hour working week was created here, ACC, bungee jumping, you know, like all
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these things actually the space industry that we now have, all these things come
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from this kind of the root of New Zealand. So we basically then tell that story to the world and actually it
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resonates really well. people love hearing about. >> That's I've been doing this podcast four
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years now and that's what I found. You know, there's just so many New Zealanders out there like giving it a
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crack and doing really really well and thinking really big. >> It's really inspiring. Eh,
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>> it is. It is. And we, you know, the whole cliche punch above your weight,
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I've sort of banned that from use in my organization, but but we definitely have
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a disproportionate impact. New Zealand, you know, when we measure um perceptions
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of New Zealand globally, so that's one of the things we do, for example, is research. U when we measure that New
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Zealand's always in the sort of top 10, top 20 countries, which is remarkable
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given there are 193 countries. We're 5 million people. We've got no right to be
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in the top 10 or 20 of anything, but we are consistently every year on lots of different aspects and dimensions. So we
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I think Kiwis kind of forget how valuable that stuff is. And um certainly in times like this and that you know we
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haven't got the hard power, we don't have a military, we don't have a big
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financial base. Our soft power, our relationships are the things that will that we need to rely on
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>> in terms of brand New Zealand. Uh what are we getting very right and very wrong
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as a country? >> Oo that's a good question. Very right is going back to relying on the core values
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of who we are as people. You know um welcoming, caring, uh innovative, trustworthy. So those are sort of the
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core values of New Zealand. There's a whole piece of work we did on that around what are trying to define who are
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the values what are the values of New Zealand that stuff works well where we get it wrong and we and I think we don't
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necessarily do it consciously but subconsciously is where we rely on kind of cliches and tropes you know so New
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Zealand is clean and green therefore the rest of the world you know must think we
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are well the reality is we're not as clean and green as we would like to be and relying on sort of sustainability or
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the perception of kind of um New Zealand's environmental safety or standards is a is a bit of a mistake for
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us because a we need to lift our game and b uh it's a risky thing even if even
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if it were true uh you know you have one small food crisis or issue or or or something and suddenly your whole
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reputation is is broken. So definitely inside New Zealand story and that was part of the reason we were created is to
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say actually our our image is too narrowly defined on one thing which is natural beauty and environmental kind of
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impact and the reality is we've got to be quite careful that that is not the
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only strings we have to our boat. That's right. Because there's the whole 100%
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pure campaign, which leaves no margin of error. >> No, no, exactly. I often joke, I mean,
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it's still a good campaign and it does a good job for the tourism, but I say the
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problem with it is it's not 100% true. Um, and it's not 100% everything we do.
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So, like it's even if it were 100% true, it's not showing you innovation and
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investment and, you know, education opportunities. It's just showing you a beautiful mountain, which is great and
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that gets tourists here. So, it does a fantastic job from a tourism point of view, but is a bit lacking in other
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areas. Yeah. But if the uh if the campaign had have been like 85% pure news that would have felt like a poster
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in Murray Murray's office >> we make those sort of Yeah. We realize that quite often you can't say
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something's like 85 and a half% pure >> the other bit. Yeah. So now this um this
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chat today was um set up by um the how do you say Malahan Maligan >> Melan the Melan Institute. Yeah.
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>> Of which you're a trustee and an ambassador. >> That's right.
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>> What is the Melahan Institute? They uh so amazing. This is a classic Kiwi story
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of a a real treasure tonga for New Zealand that we New Zealanders don't always realize is there. So it's a cat
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research institute or it's a a research institute based in Wellington and they
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have about 150 odd staff some of the most uh incredible PhD level people who are looking at the human immune system
00:08:05
and how the immune system operates. And they are literally a global leader in this. You know, they're one of only half
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a dozen institutes like them around the world who do this kind of research looking at the immune system. And
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they've been around about 40 or 50 years, maybe a bit longer. And for a long time, they were seen as a little
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bit of a weirdo organization. Look at those guys. They're mucking around with
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the immune system, but the real serious work in and is working on drugs and you know, pharmaceutical discoveries. What's
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happened in the last sort of 10 or 20 years has been this revolution in healthcare. Realizing that the immune
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system is this amazing complicated and yet um sophisticated mechanism that that can save us from many things. 99.9999%
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of all the things that go wrong in your body your body will take care of mainly through the immune system. So what the
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work they've been doing over many many years is to understand that better and
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uh they've got a particular program of work in cancer. They do lots of other
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stuff too like gut health and and things like that. But um in cancer they they're
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using their human immune system to fight cancer. And I'm involved because eight
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years ago I had the same sort of treatment that they're pioneering as well. But I had it in America. I had to
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go a long long way to get it and spend a lot of money to get it. Whereas right here in Wellington, New Zealand, we're
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we're creating our own version of the same and one of only again half a dozen
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institutes around the world that is able to do the sort of work they can do. >> Well, this is going to be a great chat.
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So, we're going to get into the the KT cell therapy and your trip to Boston. Um
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the fund raise Oh, the fundraising challenge. Go the distance. What is that? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Well, cuz we're
00:09:29
trying to get this Well, we're not trying, we are getting this clinical trial. So, to back up a little bit, the
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way that um drugs make their way into market or medicines make their way into the market is through, you know, quite a
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considered system of clinical trials. You don't just sort of create something
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and stick it out there and hope it works. You know, it's not like, you know, software where I used to work,
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spang it out there and hope it works. Um, no, with medicine you have to go through quite distinct clinical trials.
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The the typically because New Zealand is a consumer of international technology.
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We're not usually a creator of medical um, uh, interventions. We normally just
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get other people's clinical trial results and go that's good enough for us
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and we roll it out. In New Zealand, we've had to create our own clinical trial for our own uh, cartis cell
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therapy, which we'll talk about that in a minute. But that's an incredibly
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expensive and difficult thing to do. It's taking us millions and millions of
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dollars. Uh, and so we've been raising money um because the because the I hadn't mentioned the Malagan Institute
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is actually a charity. It's a it's literally a you know it's classic New
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Zealand thing again. We've got so many of our amazing things are charities in
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New Zealand um and rely on philanthropy and donations to succeed. So this clinical trial will cost us nearly $20
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million and we've raised most of that money but we're right down to the last
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few million. Feels like it's been a long time. Eight years of my life I've been
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working on this. Um and we're down to the last few. So we thought we would instead of just doing what we have been
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doing which is going to the way you raise money is by the way you go to rich people and ask them if they'll give you
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money believe it or not it's not rocket science but that has worked really well
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up until now and we've and we've done extremely well and there's been some
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very generous people but we're down to that last you know few million and we
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need to get more people involved so we've got this challenge called go the distance and the and the concept there
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is there are so many New Zealanders like me who have to go overseas you know I went to Boston 12 times over two years
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for my medical treatment for my cancer I know other patients even today still going to China, to the UK, to Singapore,
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America, having to spend a lot of money and having to travel a long ways and uh we're saying that if we need to go the
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distance both to get this clinical trial across the line, get the money in the tin so that we can actually have this
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treatment in the mainstream system in New Zealand, but to stop those other people having to go the distance that
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they're going. So that's kind of the the idea. So, for the month of April, I've
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committed to walking 200 kilometers. Um, which is why I walked here this morning. I was just telling you I walked
00:11:43
for the fair. I've got to get my steps in. Um, but we Yeah, lots of people doing that. They're signing up. They're
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being sponsored. Um, you know, it it's just a way a it shows support for the
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institution, but but it's good way for people to have a bit of a competitive
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streak, too. So, my team's doing better than your team and we're raising more
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money and stuff. So, we're hoping to close that gap by going the distance. you're still passionate about the cancer
00:12:03
stuff. Is it um I do go on about it? No. It's a really important thing, but it'd
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be easy for you to you find it triggering or whatever and be it's part of my life and I want to draw a line in
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the sand and I've done my bit and move on. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think some people and I I completely I
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have no problem with people that do want to move on cuz that's fine. Um for me, I
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there was a triggering moment for me. I mean I I was diagnosed with cancer. I went through the normal treatments and
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it and and it was sort of I was a very public about it. But I was writing a column about it while I was had
00:12:32
treatment. But there was a point where I realized we really needed help and it and it it was such an important u moment
00:12:38
in our lives. Katherine and I realized that to get on this clinical trial, we'd
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been had this amazing opportunity to go on a clinical trial in Boston. But it but the quote was a million dollars. You
00:12:48
know, literally out of the blue, an email comes in and goes, "Yeah, you're
00:12:51
on you can get on the trial, but a million US dollars." And we we don't we
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can't do that. Like we don't have the money. We can't sell the house quick
00:12:57
enough. We were going to have to try and sell our house. that wouldn't have got
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the money, but it would have got some of it. So, we just thought, how what are we
00:13:02
hell are we going to do? And so, so many people helped us. You know, there was a
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give a little campaign which was incredible. It was humbling and, you know, sort of cringeworthy, but at the
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same time amazing that there's thousands of people putting in their their little
00:13:17
bits of money and whatever to help. >> So, that was incredible. Um, but then
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there was other people who put on, you know, benefit concert. my comedian mates got together and did a concert and and I
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just felt this huge sense of not obligation that's the wrong word but just wow look at the power of people
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coming together for a cause and when I came back from my treatment and I was you know I was cured um it made me
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realize I I have an ability to be able to help other people even people I don't
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even know so if I go out there and be more visible and act as the ambassador and uh help raise the money um and it
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was amazing Because the first time they, you know, the Malagan approached me, I they flew me down to Wellington to show
00:13:57
me around and then they sort of tentatively said, "We were wondering if you might consider being the our
00:14:01
ambassador." And I went, "I'm in. What does it mean?" And they went, "We're not
00:14:05
sure." And we went, "Okay, we'll work it out as we go along." And what turns out
00:14:08
it means is helping them, you know, spread the word and raise some money. Um, and it's now 8 years later and yeah,
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I'm just privileged to be able to do it and be in a position where I, you know,
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I can actually share my story and talk to lots of people and Yeah. and and it's
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it's resonating which is good. >> We've been going almost quarter of an
00:14:25
hour. This is a great setup. It sort of establishes um who we're dealing with
00:14:29
here. Yeah. >> Um all right, let's go all the way back. So you're from Wongui. I'm from Palmer
00:14:34
North. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> You hang on. I'm just trying to work out
00:14:37
your age now. What school did you go to? >> Palmy boys. >> Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. There you
00:14:40
go. Now I Wangui. I was born and bred to two Irish immigrants. >> Yeah. >> Earliest memories?
00:14:46
>> Gosh, school? I loved school. I was it was good. I went through the Catholic
00:14:50
system. So, you know, all the all of the nuns and priests and stuff like that were around and it was they were small
00:14:55
schools, but it was great. I I had a I had a great bringing up very much working-ass family. My father was a
00:15:00
painter and decorator. U my mother didn't work when we were little. Um I've
00:15:04
got two older sisters and and a much much younger brother. And uh yeah, we always had a blessed childhood. And
00:15:09
we're growing up in an Irish family. You know, my parents are very Irish in their
00:15:13
demeanor and their language and everything, very eloquent and funny and and you know, I was blessed to have
00:15:19
that. But then also going to school in a place like Wongui had a large mai population. You know, the school I was
00:15:24
at was for the 50% mild role. It was just normal and I loved it. You know that that's, you know, culture and
00:15:30
celebration and crack as they say in Ireland. But um all very kind of for me is a very different thing in what we're
00:15:37
doing now. Yeah. Yeah. We had to learn a few of those things actually. Yes. My parents had to adjust some of their
00:15:42
language. Yes. But it was wonderful. And then Yeah. And then left to go to Palmster North. Go to Yi.
00:15:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh Yeah. What does it mean to you to have Irish roots? Does it
00:15:53
>> Born in New Zealand? >> Born in New Zealand. Yeah. Um but have lived in Ireland. I went and traveled
00:15:58
there quite a lot. We've got lots of family over there still. And Katherine,
00:16:02
my wife and I when we got married, we went and lived in Ireland for a little while just to sort of try it out. Um but
00:16:06
it is important. It's part of my heritage. I love it. um the connection into uh an older civilization, but
00:16:13
there's, as I say, there's such similarities with the Irish culture and New Zealand culture,
00:16:18
uh language, you know, celebration, faro, family being important, all that sort of stuff is really familiar to me.
00:16:23
So, yeah, I I enjoy it. >> And I get invited to some great St. Patrick's Day events.
00:16:30
>> My was there a moment early on where you realized you were good at communicating
00:16:33
ideas? >> Like, did your family like wheel you out to tell jokes at functions? Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:38
It was almost literally. Yeah. When I was at high school, me and my uh high school mates, you know, in sort of
00:16:43
fourth form, fifth form, so what's that? Year 10, 11. Um formed a little comedy
00:16:47
club, you know, it was um we were probably terrible in retrospect, but we kind of got people to come and watch us
00:16:53
do pretty much Montipython sketches and, you know, other people's material. We
00:16:57
started writing a few things of our own, but you know, through through high school, we did that. We actually did
00:17:02
some sort of productions, you know, at the local Amdram Theater type thing where our group was called up the ante
00:17:08
and it was cool and and I learned a little bit of stage craft and a little bit of, you know, um, timing and
00:17:14
performance from that. So that was probably it. And then I did, you know, I used to do all the school speeches and
00:17:19
debates and things like that. So yeah, I think maybe it's the um, you know, the
00:17:23
Blanny Stone type thing that comes through with Irish people. We tend to have a bit more of that eloquence
00:17:27
>> cuz in in terms of like a comedy pathway back then in New Zealand there was
00:17:30
nothing really there would have been probably similar age there was like mfen Gansby Billy T James Jones James
00:17:36
>> and Funny Business they were like hugely influential >> Willie did a great
00:17:42
>> those guys and Dean and yeah and um and Peter so they were great influence
00:17:45
literally the first sort of time professional thing so we watched them on TV like they were on when I was in the
00:17:50
sixth form seventh form whatever and I remember they were coming to Wonganui to do a like a gig and they were my heroes.
00:17:56
But I they were going to do it in the local pub of course and I was 16 or 17. And so we me and this comedy group that
00:18:03
I mentioned, my mates, convinced one of our teachers, amazing guy, Father Tig, um he snuck us in basically he went with
00:18:09
us so that we were at a chaperone and we went to the pub and watched Funny Business like live. Uh and it would have
00:18:16
been 1987 probably six. And um I remember going up afterwards sort of very shyly going to the stage and Willie
00:18:22
hates me telling the story now but and just sort of you know trying to shake Willy's hand and and say hello and he
00:18:28
was my idol and it's so funny cuz years and years later now he's a very good
00:18:31
friend of mine very very close um and you know we've been through a lot together he and I but but back then it
00:18:36
was such a thing so there weren't too many icons. There was all the British comedy stuff as I say like you know the
00:18:42
Montipythons of the world but in New Zealand it was a very nent industry. But I was lucky because I landed in at a
00:18:48
very, you know, fertile time in New Zealand comedy. That ne the next sort of 10 years was was a really interesting
00:18:54
time to be in comedy. >> Defining. Yeah. Did you have um like uh VHS's of like Richard Prior or Eden
00:19:00
Murphy or >> did a little bit the American stuff? I liked it. Wasn't as big a thing on me as
00:19:05
the as the um UK stuff. But >> um no, there was definitely all of that. Yeah, we were we were voraciously
00:19:11
consuming that and reading Viz magazine and all that sort of stuff, you know, just getting all these different inputs.
00:19:16
But Billy Billy T was a good one because he was the first sort of real New Zealand, you know, and Mfall Gatsby to a
00:19:21
degree. But, you know, Billy Tai guy telling Marty jokes, which you know, probably these days we'd all be
00:19:26
horrified about, but it was it was it changed, you know, changed our perception of, oh, you can actually do
00:19:31
this sort of stuff here. And we have got a kind of a semi-indigenous, well, semi,
00:19:35
you know, New Zealand sense of humor. So what did you want to be when you when you grew up like through secondary
00:19:40
school what was your plan because that difficult question like like now now if you're if you're
00:19:46
that sort of age you can say you want to become a content creator back back then
00:19:50
it was not even feasible to say you'd be like a professional comedian >> no literally it was a priest I was going
00:19:55
to be a priest up until right up this I don't tell many people this cuz it doesn't come up in conversation but I
00:19:59
went to a Catholic school very Catholic Irish upbringing Catholic Catholic Catholic some of the great influences on
00:20:04
my life some of the teachers I really admired were were priests. And I I thought, okay, I'm going to go into the
00:20:09
seminary. I'm going to finish school, go into the Catholic seminary, become a
00:20:12
priest. Um, but again, the same father, Tai, very amazing man. He said, that's
00:20:18
lovely. You know, we're having our fun of, you know, end of year chat. That's
00:20:20
great. Maybe you should go to university first, just for a year, and if you still
00:20:23
want to go into the priesthood, you know, that that's a great idea. Well, he
00:20:27
was right. I went to university discovered alcohol and women and and other things freshmen don't mix that
00:20:34
well with no turning back after no it was great it was a gift to me and he he became a a great friend and sort of
00:20:40
married Katherine and I and baptized our children all that sort of stuff so he was he was an influence you know by
00:20:46
telling us not to do something which was great yeah >> so so you moved to Palmy after school um
00:20:50
you go to me studying for a BSE what's that bach science >> yeah yeah and uh back then it was
00:20:56
mathematics and and uh I did chemistry and I jumped around topics cuz while at school I was quite smart, you know, I
00:21:03
was the tallest dwarf basically cuz it was I was the ducks of my school of literally six kids in, you know, in year
00:21:08
13 or seventh form. So I thought I was all, you know, wow, I'm so amazing. But
00:21:12
you get to university, you realize, no, you're not. You're uh pretty average. Um
00:21:17
and I didn't and I discovered all these other things that were much more interesting than actually studying my
00:21:21
degree. So I sort of scraped by in my first year um and kept changing topics and you know it wasn't really committed
00:21:29
to um the academic life at that point because there were so many other cool things to do at university.
00:21:34
>> Who who were your mates then? Palms North is a fertile ground for for comedy
00:21:38
and also for like commercial radio. Were you were you were you there at the same
00:21:42
time as Steven Joyce who set up radio messy or >> just just clipped the end of his period
00:21:46
there. Um and I sort of knew of him >> and Bernard Hickey who who's in the
00:21:50
media now. He was but yeah no Bernard's uh >> oh the financial guy financial guy yeah
00:21:55
yeah yeah he he was at radio massy >> um so yeah it was it was futile as you
00:21:59
say and then there was 2xm which was like a commercial station and Robert Scott was there for example at that
00:22:04
point and um those guys and then my you know the Jeremy and Nigel Corbett the Corbett boys were there and John Bridges
00:22:10
and >> Yatesy Paul Yates and a whole lot of people that that became really good
00:22:15
friends of mine and are still many of them still working in media and TV and and you know have their careers have
00:22:20
just gone gone ahead. So yeah, that that was the crowd I kind of landed into the
00:22:24
middle of and I was very lucky as I say I was um I got there just at the point where things were getting quite
00:22:29
interesting and uh I joined you know my almost my first couple of months I joined the Massie University Drama
00:22:34
Society MUDS um cuz they have an annual review capping review so it's very British again like that they call it
00:22:41
footlights in um Cambridge and it's the they come together and they do sketch
00:22:44
comedy and it's all very you know formulaic in some ways but Muds was doing the same sort of thing so I joined
00:22:50
up and I I remember walking in, it was probably one of the formative moments of my life, walking into the sort of, you
00:22:55
know, lecture theater where they were rehearsing and meeting all these people who would now become my, you know, very
00:23:01
close friends 30, 40 years later. >> Um, and yeah, they accepted me in and we
00:23:07
had a we had a wonderful time. So did um did basically that was where I spent most of my time was doing that kind of
00:23:12
work. >> Did did it feel like feel like you'd found your tribe like this is where I
00:23:16
belong. These are my people. >> Yeah, definitely. There's definitely that moment where you go, you know, they
00:23:20
got shared sense of humor but but different and had slightly different life experiences than me and and yeah,
00:23:25
you do I felt very lucky that you you've got this this opportunity to meet people
00:23:29
that are like you and universities are great hunting grounds and you know you've got radio going on and I got
00:23:35
involved in the student newspaper and then I became the treasurer of this of the student association and you know I
00:23:40
just got involved in stuff. It was cool >> cuz Steven so Steven just slightly older
00:23:44
than you. He looks very much older than me. A Stephen if you're listening. Oh,
00:23:48
I'm ancient. He's probably about five years older than me. I don't know.
00:23:51
>> He was he was doing like a vet degree and um cut his teeth in radio there.
00:23:55
Then went on to set up the company that is now Media Works. He was my boss for a
00:23:58
while. I think Jeremy Corbett was an investor as well. >> Jeremy's got a great story about that
00:24:02
cuz he apparently missed out on he like he's got this he invested in the early
00:24:06
days and then pulled his money out just as it got good and just started flying. Yeah. So he did Energy FM and in I think
00:24:11
Tanaki and Jeremy stopped and then of course Media Works took off. But yeah, you weren't tempted to be an early
00:24:16
investor. >> No, I didn't have the opportunity. I have no money. I was broke. I was a
00:24:20
completely broke student, but loved it. And also I only stayed at Massie about a
00:24:24
year and a half or two years. And then we had this incredible experience where we literally got, you know, the phoned
00:24:28
up and said, "Do you want to be on a TV show?" >> Me and a few other guys. So, so we went
00:24:33
off in a different direction for a little while. >> Yeah. So, this is when um God, this is
00:24:37
going to age the conversation. There were two TV channels in New Zealand, TV1 and TV 2. And then TV TV3 was launching.
00:24:43
And this was a TV show called A Way Laughing. >> That's right. Yeah. >> So, you got sort of headhunted for this.
00:24:47
>> It was amazing. >> How I mean it's like it's it's the
00:24:51
starlights, right? It's the it's the dream. But how did that conversation go
00:24:54
down with your parents? >> Uh not well guys. >> I like to think cuz my um yeah, it was
00:25:01
the second year of uni. We got we did we're doing the capping review again and
00:25:05
unbeknownst to us one of the a d a producer from TV came along Dave Gibson um came along watched it and he sort of
00:25:11
was obviously writing notes and he went you you and you and he picked the three of us and we got a phone call saying do
00:25:16
you want to come and work on this TV show I'm creating. It was literally sort
00:25:19
of out of the blue like these things don't happen. So, I had to break it to my parents that I was going to quit
00:25:24
university halfway through second year and um go off and do this weird thing of being an actor and and a comedian. And
00:25:30
and it was it was heartbreaking to them, I think, because I was going to be the first ever on both sides of my family.
00:25:37
My my father and my mother were all very workingass. Their whole generations back, you know, Irish, you know, living
00:25:43
sort of pretty hand-to-mouth existences. And I was the first child to go to university. my two older sisters who are
00:25:49
who are now incredibly um uh profession and accomplished but back then had children quite young and didn't have the
00:25:56
opportunity to go to university etc. So it's like the whole family history was
00:26:00
resting on my shoulders and then I said >> I'm throwing it away. Yeah. I have the
00:26:04
great hope I'm throwing it away. I'm going to go and be a comedian. I was
00:26:07
like you can just imagine them oh gosh >> you couldn't be more disappointed.
00:26:11
>> That's right. But um but no I think I've made up for it now I hope. But yeah,
00:26:16
>> knowing what you know now about TV and how fickle it is and how how quickly
00:26:19
they you make knee-jerk decisions or they did back then, there's no way you do it, right?
00:26:23
>> No, but the way you pull out it depends on your like you've ignorance
00:26:27
>> when something like that presents itself at the age of I was probably 19 or 18
00:26:31
even maybe um no 19 it was why wouldn't you like there's there's a very low risk
00:26:38
um at that stage of your life. I mean, I mentor lots of young people now, and I just say, "Do anything." Like, anyone
00:26:42
that offers you anything at that age of early 20s before you've got mortgages
00:26:46
and children and long-term relationships and debt and whatever, just take every opportunity that's offered to you cuz
00:26:50
it's >> there's very low risk and um you can always adjust later. When you're my age
00:26:55
now, like mid-50s, late 50s, yeah, you got to be a bit more thoughtful, but back then, you know, take the
00:27:00
opportunity. But yes, it's very fickle. TV, as you know, media, oh, you're
00:27:04
you're great. You're the greatest thing ever. No, you're gone. So, we've given
00:27:07
it two episodes. It hasn't worked. >> Sorry. Yeah. One of the TV producers I
00:27:11
used to work with, I hope this is not too much for you say one day they're opening the bottle of champagne for you
00:27:15
and next day they're shoving it up your bum. So, >> but yes. >> So, what was it like back then? Um you
00:27:22
being on it must have been exciting like being on the startup channel TV3. >> It was we were opening night of TV3. Um
00:27:28
it was it got a lot of hype. Uh you know it was bus stops and whatever and and there was like two or three local
00:27:34
content things that night. um I think news news something or other um there was a news program there was us there
00:27:40
was a there was a drama program and then there was a bunch of you know US-based stuff or whatever they bought so we it
00:27:45
was a big deal and it was all in the press and you know listener and all the articles and stuff and it it was an
00:27:50
ensemble cast so there was I think eight or 10 of us um some really cool people Kevin Smith god Rest his soul was was
00:27:56
there um Donald Mlain Robert Malcolm me John Paul you know a bunch of people Tim
00:28:03
Balm I can't remember who now there was a few of And it was cool. So, and we we
00:28:07
were given this, you know, amazing uh opportunity, a 13 part episode, 13 episodes. We had a couple of series in
00:28:13
the end. And it was very character- based. You know, they were they were basing it on some Australian formats
00:28:18
where they where they have regular characters with kind of catchphrases and the catchphrases were designed to become
00:28:23
more and more repetitive. >> Comedy company in Australia. >> Comedy company. It was the same kind of
00:28:27
time as that came out. And so I had two of those characters. One was Daryl Hoon.
00:28:31
Uh Daryl Hoon and what's it to you? Um, that was my catchphrase among other things. And then we had me and John did
00:28:36
these two skateboarder guys that were actually a sketch that we' done at university. So, so it was very And then
00:28:42
we had just general sketches. So, it was very safe. I look back at it now and some of it's a bit cringeworthy. Some of
00:28:47
the gags still held holder, but most of it you go, "Oh man, it was a bit ropey."
00:28:51
But, um, you know, it was we was we were learning. We were trying things out. What were the reviews like?
00:28:55
>> Yeah, they were okay. They were pretty good. I think we did go up against like
00:28:59
Mcfallen Gatsby and stuff in the end. So like they were putting us against some pretty, you know, established things.
00:29:04
But yeah, I think we did pretty well out of it. And you know, it was certainly fun. Like me and um me and my friends,
00:29:10
you know, it was the dream come true. We were suddenly working in TV and getting
00:29:13
paid more than we ever knew was possible. We had literally $1,000 a week or something. It was like, "Oh my god,
00:29:18
what are we going to do with all this money?" We found out some of the rest of the
00:29:23
cast were getting paid substantially more than that. But we were like the naive young guys from Palmer North.
00:29:28
>> And was it around this time that you um co-ounded the classic? >> Just a bit after. Yeah, we move after
00:29:34
doing two series of that. We moved to Oakland um and continued working in TV. I say we cuz um by that stage my wife
00:29:41
which my girlfriend at the time who's become my wife Katherine and we we'd got
00:29:44
together. John came up here and we moved moved up here worked in other TV shows.
00:29:49
So, we were in like more production roles or writing or doing a little bit of acting and stuff and and because that
00:29:55
as you probably know is not really a job like you you'll have a 3 or 4 month
00:29:59
project which is awesome and then you're sleeping on someone's couch for 3 months
00:30:03
while you haven't got any money you know so so we decided we needed to be a bit
00:30:06
more in control of our own destiny so we we were doing a lot of standup comedy in
00:30:10
clubs as well in bars and stuff and but they were other people's pubs and I remember you know vividly remember we
00:30:15
would done had done all the work we would be bringing in the chairs We would be s Katherine and girlfriends and stuff
00:30:21
would be sitting at the door taking the tickets. We'd be on stage telling our
00:30:24
jokes. We'd pack it all up again the end of the night and then we'd divvy up the
00:30:28
proceeds and we might get 20 bucks each. And you'd watch the guy behind the bar
00:30:31
just creaming it the whole time and making money. So we think, why are we doing, you know, things in other
00:30:36
people's bars? Why don't we own the bar? You know, again, naively, I was I was
00:30:40
not even I was probably 21, 22, but three or four of us decided, yeah, let's
00:30:45
let's do it. How hard can it be? So we turns out very hard. But al again, same
00:30:50
sort of thing. You know, you don't know how hard it's going to be. There's no
00:30:53
real major mistakes you're going to make at that stage of your life that you
00:30:55
can't get out of. So, we um yeah, we set up the classic. So, um incredible. I've
00:31:00
had um I had Scott on the podcast at the beginning of the year. Great chance. So,
00:31:04
he he was one of the founders with you and he's still there now. >> Still there now. Yeah. He's amazing.
00:31:08
>> The original model was um >> there was about five or six of us involved. Scott was sort of on the
00:31:13
peripheral to start with, but then he became very important. Um but it was Jeremy put some money in you know we got
00:31:18
friends and family you know and friends family and fools as the sort of go saying goes with um early stage money.
00:31:24
Um Katherine's mother put money in like we put whatever money we had. We were
00:31:28
the only ones at this stage that had any kind of assets. I owned a we owned a house randomly a little apartment tiny
00:31:33
little place that we'd scraped to get enough money to buy. So that was the that was kind of the um the guarantee on
00:31:39
the loan from for setting up the classic. And then uh yeah, but what we were trying to do is basically turn it
00:31:45
into a business. And and it's sort of a business, but actually much more it's a
00:31:49
social good. And we realized after a few years that actually the model of trying
00:31:53
to have multiple people own it and think that you're ever going to make any money
00:31:56
is not going to work. >> It actually needs to be an owner operator like a like a dairy.
00:32:00
>> And that's kind of what it still is. And Scott's done an amazing job. um not not
00:32:04
dismissing um you know it is a business but actually it's much more of this just
00:32:08
kind of engine of creativity and growth and giving comedians an opportunity to kind of learn their craft.
00:32:14
>> Yeah. And in terms of nurturing young comedians he's so bloody good, isn't he?
00:32:18
So lucky to have him. >> It's always been his massive skill. Like it's so funny cuz most of the people who
00:32:23
work in comedy are comedians, you know, and they sit around and tell jokes with and it's like oneupmanship and you're
00:32:29
kind of taking the piss out of each other constantly. And Scott's this really interesting force. He's the
00:32:33
godfather. Um cuz he'll sit there and not try and do all of that, but he'll
00:32:37
observe and he'll tweak and he'll give people advice and it's amazing. He's
00:32:41
just got such a skill and as you say, nurturing the next generations that come through. So back then we were ropey as
00:32:47
hell. You know, 50% of our stuff was awful, you know. Um we were learning, the audiences were learning as well.
00:32:53
Like it was so funny. I look back like we we both none of us really knew what standup comedy could be or should be. Um
00:32:59
and you have to do a lot of it. It's like any skill, you know, thousands of hours of training to get good at
00:33:04
something. Um and so yeah, the early um audiences were put up with a lot. Uh but
00:33:10
Scott was Scott was very much there training, learning as himself, showing other and then part of bringing um a big
00:33:17
step we took at one point was to start to bring in international comedians into New Zealand. Like it was a real like a
00:33:22
step change to thinking not only are we going to run our own thing, but we're
00:33:26
arrogant enough to think that we can produce other people's shows. and Scott
00:33:28
was big behind that. Um bringing in you know Ed Davies um who was Rich Hall um Bill Bailey who were the first producers
00:33:37
of Bill Bailey and so we did this thing over through the comedy festivals um bringing in these comedians and yeah he
00:33:43
he was a big driver behind that was amazing. >> Yeah. So, so you're in this unique
00:33:47
position where you you're a creative um but also yeah 1992 CEO of the comedy
00:33:52
fest and then 19 uh mid '90s you set up a company called Eureka software development company.
00:33:57
>> Oh gosh, you have done your research. >> So you you've got it's almost like these
00:34:00
two lives. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was a bit like that. I think cuz my brain's always been a bit
00:34:05
more mathematical than most others and I was the sort of initial CEO for for the
00:34:09
um for the classic and the comedy fest when it first started because I knew how to use a spreadsheet cuz I'd gone to
00:34:14
university and done maths like it was literally I had no idea about finance. I just had knew how to use a spreadsheet.
00:34:19
Um and then I had some good friends that helped as well. But yeah, so there has been that and and also I knew again I
00:34:25
could see pretty quickly that the comedy thing was not really a career. It was a
00:34:28
cool thing to do for a few years and hanging out with my mates and we did a lot of radio and it was awesome but we
00:34:35
needed a proper job and again maybe I was a little bit more mature advanced than some of my friends. No disrespect
00:34:40
to them but Katherine and I got together early decided we were going to get married wanted to have children realized
00:34:45
that jeepers one of us had barely have a job. So we we set up this technology company and again it was super early
00:34:52
1995 was just when the internet was starting out. Windows 95 came out. I remember it vividly and we set up a
00:34:58
company at that point to basically do the sort of things that are still around now. Um, but we were way ahead of I was
00:35:06
going to say way ahead sounds like like we arrogantly knew what the thing was doing. No, we we were too early trying
00:35:10
to do things with technology that was too immature. Um, underinvesting in it, not really knowing quite what we're
00:35:16
doing. But we we we set up a pretty good business that went for a few years, quite a few years. So yeah, it was fun.
00:35:21
And I was running that at the same time I was running the classic for a couple years. there was an overlap and it was
00:35:25
and we actually had the office the techn Eureka was set up in the same office as
00:35:29
the comedy um club for a while. So I'd be you know helping out the comedy side
00:35:33
for one in the evening and then trying to do and write code and stuff too. I was I learn I taught myself to be a
00:35:39
software developer. >> That's wild. So were you were you like two different p two different people and
00:35:44
to be in one room you're in >> probably possibly actually I don't know
00:35:48
I mean I was I was nerdy in both of them. Um, but luckily I have good people around
00:35:53
me. I mean, that's the thing. That's the thing I've learned is you don't have to
00:35:56
be perfect at everything. You just have to gather people around that are good at
00:36:00
stuff. So, yeah, >> it's just a crazy thought this guy writing code by daytime and having these
00:36:04
these these meetings about where the the internet's going to go in the future and
00:36:07
then by night you're doing five minute sets on stage. >> Well, the interesting thing is comedians
00:36:11
are often very intelligent. I'm not saying I am but many int a lot of intelligent and there's a lot of
00:36:16
parallels between those types of sort of logical things like mathematics or computer programming. Jeremy Corbett's a
00:36:22
closet computer programmer if you don't know that um used to do a lot of work in
00:36:26
cobalt John Bridges wrote a his whole mast's thesis on hypertextual analysis
00:36:31
and webs and how websites would work and so a lot of people have that in them it's just that comedy is kind of like a
00:36:38
much more near-term short-term sugar rush that you can get out of it. Where did I stay withd
00:36:52
that sort of dropped off along the way? >> Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people. Yeah. It's
00:36:54
not for everyone. It's a a is a lifestyle. It's a difficult job. You know, those that work hard, they work on
00:37:00
weekends and nights. It's pretty antisocial from a family point of view at times. B, it's actually hard to be
00:37:06
successful because you've just got to do a lot of work, a lot of hours to get
00:37:09
good and you've got to takes a lot to, you know, a fiveminute set takes you hours to think of and write and craft
00:37:14
and hone and tune and whatever. So, there's a lot of effort behind it and then of course you've got to have the
00:37:18
talent for it. So, you know, um, a lot of those people drop off. You often have to have a second job. You know, you
00:37:25
know, radio was a classic one or people would do things that allow them to do that stuff in the evening. So for me, I
00:37:30
I quickly realized there were other things that interested in me more and I probably wasn't willing enough to spend
00:37:36
the the hours and hours needed to get really good and you know I want to spend time with my family and do other cool
00:37:42
things. Yeah. >> And and you like you like money. You like not being broke. You like eating
00:37:46
food. >> Yeah. I like Yeah. I like eating food. Yeah. That's the other thing. Yeah.
00:37:49
You've got to surviving on >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, but I I'm so
00:37:54
pleased with the way that we did that back in those days and the whole industry has just developed. You know,
00:37:59
we couldn't have written the script better in terms of New Zealand's comedy
00:38:02
scene is rich and diverse and cool and youthful and has a has a New Zealand twist on it. It's all the things we had
00:38:09
hoped, but um it wasn't there wasn't a business plan to do that, but that was
00:38:12
certainly part of the the vision that we hoped for. >> And you do so much um keynote speaking
00:38:17
and stuff now. I suppose that sort of scratches your itch. >> It does. That's my uh my outlet. Yeah.
00:38:21
People say, "Do you do much comedy?" I go do comedy every day. Like every
00:38:24
meeting I'm in. I'm not on purpose. I'm not trying I'm not cracking jokes very
00:38:28
often. Probably too much for my kids, you know, a bit dad jokey. But um but I definitely It's funny actually cuz in my
00:38:34
when I dropped out and I went and worked for Microsoft and all this sort of stuff, I thought, "Oh, I better be
00:38:38
serious and I better put a shirt on and I can't I can't show people who I really
00:38:42
am." So I'd be like biting my tongue, not saying the funny thing. uh and you
00:38:46
know for years and then over the years I realized the more I just let myself be myself and make the jokes and be you
00:38:52
know friendly and whatever the better things went. So I just sort of unleashed it and now I'm in this job where I sort
00:38:59
of literally am briefing the prime minister and talking to ministers and whatever and make and I just be me and
00:39:04
it and it seems to work pretty well. So I don't try and you know be two different people anymore.
00:39:09
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You you mentioned Microsoft just then. Yeah. So you worked at Microsoft
00:39:12
for 13 years. regional director for Southeast Asia. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um that sounds like a big job.
00:39:18
>> It was. Yeah. It was cool. I mean we I worked here in New Zealand first for
00:39:21
Microsoft. I got headunted by Microsoft after say running my own business and technology and that you know and they
00:39:28
asked me to come and work for them which was cool and it was great fun to work for a big corporate. Again I hadn't I
00:39:33
hadn't really consciously thought of it as a next step but it was a great next
00:39:36
step like going work for a massive corporate and learning how corporate environments work. Then they offered me
00:39:41
a job uh working in Southeast Asia which we'd never lived in or worked in. So it
00:39:46
was great. And it was at that time we had we've had um three children and we
00:39:50
thought yeah it's a good age. The kids are kind of you know what they four seven and nine or something like that I
00:39:55
can't remember. And we thought yeah let's go and do have an adventure with
00:39:58
the kids. And so we went lived lived in Singapore which is a nice sort of safe easy place to live. And then I looked
00:40:04
after all these 11 countries around Southeast Asia, which were the the weird and wonderful markets, the places that
00:40:11
US corporates kind of struggle to be successful in sometimes. And my job was um kind of being the the um regional
00:40:19
manager. Sounds awful. It sounds like a David Brent thing, but um but but basically they had subsidiaries in all
00:40:24
these countries and then I would sort of fly in and just make sure that we're
00:40:27
being legal and you know, everything's above board and things projects are going well and we're we're doing okay.
00:40:32
And um yeah, it was great fun. Yeah. Did you enjoy it? >> Oh, I loved it. Oh, that was probably
00:40:36
one of the best jobs. It was stressful as hell because the the answer to the question is are things going well was no
00:40:41
most of the time. Um cuz 11 countries, some of them are a little bit wild westy in terms of the way that their
00:40:49
legalities work and there's a bit of graft going on, bit of corruption here and or a very grumpy customer or
00:40:55
whatever. Um so it wasn't always easy. Um, but it was great fun and learning
00:41:00
the differences between countries. You know, as a New Zealander, we often look at the world and go, there's Asia and
00:41:05
there's America. And it's only when you get up close and living there, you
00:41:09
realize the differences and the nuances and, you know, Philippines is very very different than Vietnam or or Indonesia
00:41:15
or whatever. And so, you're learning and I love that aspect of it. Um, I was
00:41:20
applying the business stuff I knew but in a completely new context. >> Wow.
00:41:23
>> Yeah. Did did you have anything to do with upper management like Bill Gates or
00:41:27
>> Paul Allen the other guy? >> Yeah, way back then. Yeah. But Bill Gates gave me a watch which was very
00:41:31
cool. Actually I won award. Yeah. I won this award a big award the big Microsoft
00:41:35
global award for sort of whatever I can't remember the chairman's club it
00:41:39
was called. That's right. So I got a Rolex gold Rolex from Bill with it on the back it says 2D from BG
00:41:46
uh which is pretty cool. So that was at a that was you know like an award thing that you know Microsoft like all those
00:41:51
big corporates they have these big incentive programs and this was the you know the top of them top of the top
00:41:55
awards. So I've still got that in a draw somewhere. I don't wear a watch so and
00:41:58
I'm not going to wear a gold Rolex cuz it's a bit of wanky but >> was is the money wild in that time.
00:42:03
>> Oh it wasn't it wasn't wild enough. I I mistimed my run. Microsoft was this
00:42:08
amazing company. It grew like crazy. And like when I joined they said to me don't
00:42:12
worry about the don't worry about the pay. It's all about the stock options.
00:42:15
You just just forget about the pay. It's just like chump change. But then I joined and then they had this this issue
00:42:21
with the US government and you know there was the consent decree and the the stock basically just flatlined for about
00:42:27
12 of the 13 years I was there. And then after 12 13 years I I'm going to do
00:42:31
something different. I'm out of here. Made a little bit of money. Don't get me
00:42:34
wrong, you know, we we did fine. But compared to the there's a great story about Microsoft where there if if you
00:42:40
can let me diverge for a second where there was a receptionist in one of the offices in Australia and every year all
00:42:46
the all the people that work for Microsoft in in those early days would get stock options as part of the annual
00:42:50
bonuses and and she didn't understand what it meant. She was oh yeah whatever
00:42:53
just and then one day she said to one of her workmates what are these things that
00:42:57
I've got here? I've got you know so many hundreds or whatever of these things and
00:42:59
they did the calculation and she had like $3 million. It was like she was literally the receptionist at the at the
00:43:06
office in and uh so you imagine what that was doing for some other people that were on a substantially higher but
00:43:11
I missed that bit and then when I left I thought I've had enough. I'm going to do
00:43:15
something else which has been great don't get me wrong I'm not bitter but
00:43:19
when I left I had to sell all of my remaining stock and stuff and then I look back at it you know years later I
00:43:24
go oh my god it's gone up literally 10 times what I would have sold it for. >> But it's okay I'm fine. I'm not bitter.
00:43:30
>> Thanks for reminding me. Yeah. Who's got um in terms of that, have you and Jeremy
00:43:34
Corbett have a discussion about who's got the worst scars on their back? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we get
00:43:39
together and be bitter and twisted together. But it's both good for both of you guys.
00:43:43
>> Uh if you if you worry about stuff like that, you're worrying about the wrong
00:43:46
stuff, you know, like we're okay. We can feed the kids and you know, whatever.
00:43:49
And and it's it's never been about the money, you know. Um money's money is
00:43:54
important to a certain level. It's a hygiene factor for all of us. And someone said to me a very wise thing
00:43:59
once, there's no such thing as a poor philanthropist. You know, I really want
00:44:02
to be in a position where I can give away money. And Katherine and I have already talked about, you know, when we
00:44:06
when we pass, we'll be giving money to these different charities and stuff like
00:44:09
that. We haven't got a lot of money, but it'll be nice to be able to recognize
00:44:12
that. Um, but you can only do that if you've, you know, you're not sustainable. And also from a time point
00:44:18
of view, I've been very lucky that I work part-time in my New Zealand story job. They let me do that because I want
00:44:23
to work for the Malagan Institute and do all these other things. So, um, yeah, if
00:44:27
you if you you can't do that unless you're in a position to do that. >> Yeah.
00:44:31
>> What room would you say you're more comfortable in? Is it like a like a room
00:44:33
full of comedians or a room full of computer geeks or a room full of suits or >> Wow, these are good questions.
00:44:40
>> I could do all of that. I don't mind. I'm in all of those rooms quite
00:44:42
regularly actually. >> And you you're pretty much the same or you just moderate your behavior slightly
00:44:47
for the audience. >> I might moderate it a little bit. you know, if you're in a room full of
00:44:51
politicians or, you know, serious business people or whatever, you're not you're not quite doing the, you know,
00:44:55
the cracking the jokes that the comedians are going to do, but at the same time,
00:44:59
>> comedians, you know, will talk about world affairs and are interested in the
00:45:03
economy and what's going on and politics and stuff like so the the worlds are not
00:45:07
mutually exclusive at all. Um, yeah. And I I find that useful. >> Part of I think part of my value is a
00:45:12
little bit that I do walk in these different spaces and I can actually connect the dots um between things.
00:45:17
>> Oh, it's a superpower. Yeah. Hopefully served you well. >> Yeah. So far,
00:45:21
>> Jess, um 22,000 followers on LinkedIn as well. Like you're very well connected.
00:45:25
>> Most of them are my mom. She set up all these ghost accounts, I think. Yeah.
00:45:29
>> Well, for me, I think LinkedIn's the only social media app that's safe from
00:45:32
my mom. >> Well, she's definitely not going to check you out on LinkedIn. I know. Oh,
00:45:38
LinkedIn's been an amazing part of my story. Actually, I'm so lucky because
00:45:41
LinkedIn was literally the way that my life got saved, you know, and I give great credit to it. I was so I was
00:45:47
public with telling my story. and I got connected with this guy on LinkedIn who who said I think I can help you and and
00:45:53
so it's amazing but but also I do see it as a useful um way to kind of connect
00:45:58
with other people and share and learn and yeah >> you you brought it up then the um yeah
00:46:04
the LinkedIn thing and the um the guy from FISA that slid into your DMs. >> Yeah.
00:46:09
>> Um almost is would it be fair to say he's almost like a guardian angel?
00:46:13
>> Yeah, Mike his name is. He is. Yeah. and he still connects with me very
00:46:16
regularly. Like he'll send me a text every now and then. He's a great a great
00:46:19
guy. So the story there is I was I was just going to work. I was back here in New Zealand at this point. Had finished
00:46:25
my job at Microsoft was working at New Zealand trade and enterprise which is an amazing government agency using my
00:46:31
skills in international like work and great. Um and then I got I basically got came down and got diagnosed with cancer
00:46:37
out of the blue. you know, I was just feeling a bit under the weather and went to the doctor and it just escalated
00:46:41
really quickly to I think I've got the flu to no, you've got quite severe
00:46:45
cancer and actually we need you to do chemotherapy and I'm in and out of hospital. And so my life just changed
00:46:51
like radically in a really short amount of time, mid-40s at the time. And um and
00:46:56
I had, you know, again, like I said earlier, I I've always wanted to be creative. So I thought, what am I going
00:47:00
to do? I started writing and I wrote a column every day, every every week and stuff published it, which was cool. Um,
00:47:07
and it was because I was a comedian. I don't take things too serious. I was writing kind of a a more humorous
00:47:12
version of what it's like to go through med serious medical incidents. And sometimes though it's quite serious
00:47:17
because what you're going through is quite you know difficult. But I I put it
00:47:20
out every week whether I liked it or not. And uh it got thousands of followers. It was really getting a lot
00:47:25
of uptake and I was getting lots of um you know beautiful messages and things like that. But it did get to the point
00:47:31
where the treatment just we ran out of options. And this is why this is such a thing that's close to my heart is cuz
00:47:36
people are still getting this kind of message in New Zealand. We just don't have the treatments you need. Like we
00:47:41
can go this far, but we can't afford the treatments that are now available. You
00:47:45
know, there's so many of this these stories that are still in our media all the time. And I was one of them. And for
00:47:51
me, it was, you know, the choices where go home and, you know, live out the next
00:47:55
6 months of your life and enjoy it. Um, or nothing. You know, there was no other
00:48:02
option. And so I wrote about that. I said, you know, I'm we're at the end of
00:48:06
the road. Things are looking really bleak. They've just had, you know, the tumors have come back. They've told me
00:48:10
they've got no more chemo options. And this guy who had been reading my column,
00:48:15
Mike, um, sent me a message on LinkedIn, uh, out of the blue again and just said,
00:48:20
"Look, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I've been reading your
00:48:22
story and, um, you know, I'm I've sort of work in the medical field and can I
00:48:26
help?" >> What is he like vice president at? >> Yeah. turns out to be the senior vice
00:48:30
president uh for immunology at at FISA bas he's got an office in New York. What's he doing reading stuff?
00:48:36
>> Yeah, cuz he it's cool. This one I love it. This random all these things come
00:48:40
together cuz he'd been to New Zealand on holiday and he loves New Zealand. He
00:48:43
loved the people. He loves reading New Zealand news. He'd like been here and
00:48:47
done the April Tasman and whatever. Went back to America's kept reading stuff cuz
00:48:51
it's like he goes it's such like a a joy to read a newspaper that's not all about
00:48:55
American politics and not it's not this one perspective of the world. It's just
00:48:58
and your news is pretty simple, you know, like he sometimes still texts me and he goes, you know, you've got cow
00:49:04
loose on road that's on your front page of your paper today. It's like, yeah,
00:49:07
Mike, it's actually a really big problem, the cows on the roads thing. Don't diss us. But anyway, it's it's a
00:49:12
beautiful thing. So, he and he just clocked it one day. It said mild touch. It was called a mild touch of the cancer
00:49:17
was the name of the you know trying to send a message that it was you know humorous and uh yeah and then then he
00:49:23
just reached out to me on LinkedIn and it turned out you know with his connections he was the type of person
00:49:28
that absolutely could help me and he put me in touch with people you know within
00:49:31
a few literally a few hours of me going yes I need help he'd said right here's a
00:49:35
person here's three people you can talk to this one's doing this trial this is
00:49:38
this call this guy you know it was amazing and uh basically orchestrated the opportunity for me to go to Boston
00:49:45
so it out of the blue. But again, I I always talk about this. The phones don't
00:49:50
usually ring that way, you know, like I had this phone call and got discovered on a TV show. I got this thing out of
00:49:55
the blue to say, "We think we've got a treatment for your cancer." Like
00:49:58
lightning doesn't strike twice or three times. So, I was just so lucky. You got
00:50:03
to grab those opportunities when you see them. And then if you're in a in an
00:50:06
opport a position where you can give other people that opportunity, you should do it as well. So, that's kind of
00:50:11
big mantra for me. >> I mean, it's wonderful how it all it all worked out. Um you told that so well
00:50:17
like almost the whole cancer journey in the space of about 3 minutes to drill down on some of it. Yeah. So um
00:50:23
>> you're a sucker for punishment. >> So so New Year's 2016 into 2017. Um this
00:50:28
is pre-diagnosis. What what are what are your goals and dreams for the year? >> Well, how was your health?
00:50:33
>> My health was okay. I was at the end of that was the end of a year and it you
00:50:36
know it was I was um quite tired. I remember I was probably working too hard. I've got a bit of a propensity to
00:50:42
do that. Just putting that in there in case my wife listens. Um, it's my fault
00:50:45
completely, dear. Um, but I would, yeah, so I was tired. So I thought I need I just need a holiday, you know, I had a
00:50:51
sort of a three or four week holiday and still was tired and and grumpy and um couldn't couldn't, you know, get better
00:50:58
and I didn't know what was going on and and I thought I had some sort of virus
00:51:01
or flu. We'd been to Fiji on holiday, so we thought Katherine, my wife's going,
00:51:04
"Oh, you've probably got Zika virus." That was going around at the time.
00:51:07
That's cool. Like Zika virus, very exotic. So I went to the doctor and they did all these barrage of tests and
00:51:13
stuff. Uh and they discovered no it wasn't Zika virus. It wasn't this. It
00:51:16
wasn't that. It took a while to actually work it out. And then they said actually
00:51:18
no we we'll do an abdominal scan. We just we can't work out what's going on.
00:51:22
And when they did the abdominal scan they discovered a massive tumor. >> And it was like oh okay that explains
00:51:27
it. You've got how big cancer? About the size of a basketball like about oh wow
00:51:31
>> at 10 in by 12 in sort of deal. >> I remember the doctor um walking in and
00:51:36
she said yeah you're going to we're going to get to know each other quite
00:51:39
well. You know, I'm I'm a hematologist. This is weird. A I think I'm a really
00:51:43
reasonably intelligent person. I didn't know some of these words. I'm a hematologist and you've got a hematical
00:51:48
malignancy. And I was going, well, thank you. >> I thought that's what it was.
00:51:51
>> Exactly. I was googling it like when she left me. What the [ __ ] is he malignancy?
00:51:56
Why don't you just say cancer? So, I was like, wow. >> So, that's that's February 2017 that you
00:52:02
get diagnosed. Um, >> yeah. What What are you thinking at that point? You I mean, you didn't know what
00:52:06
was ahead, but >> No, I was pretty optimistic. I'm a very optimistic person, but I was at the time
00:52:11
it was like she said, you know, we we're pretty sure we know how to treat this.
00:52:14
It's lymphoma. This is a kind of common blood cancer. You've got B cell lymphoma. It's pretty, you know, we know
00:52:20
how to treat this. It's fine. So, >> 80% chance >> 80% chance. You see, literally said 80%
00:52:24
chance. But this is but but we have to get on to it immediately. You know, you can't muck around. So, we need you in
00:52:28
hospital on Monday. You know, you won't be able to go to, you know, you'll be
00:52:32
feeling pretty sick about things. So, you know, called my boss, who's amazing
00:52:35
guy, and just said, "I don't know what's going to happen, but I think it's
00:52:38
probably 3 or 4 months uh of treatment, and I probably, you know, I'm in and out
00:52:42
of hospital a bit, but I can probably do some work." And so, it was all okay. But
00:52:46
then, like, by the time the following Tuesday comes around, they' done some extra tests and sent my thing off to um
00:52:52
biopsy off to Australia to do some more tests and and then it got it started getting worse and worse, you know,
00:52:57
pretty quickly. It was like, "Oh, the treatment that we were going to give you
00:53:00
is probably not going to work because you've got this particular genetic makeup, which means that we know the
00:53:05
chemo that the standard chemo is not going to work. You you're a bit special
00:53:08
and different, which is not something you want to hear, by the way. So, and but we'll need you to be in hospital
00:53:14
now. You're not you can't just come and do the day stays and leave and go home.
00:53:18
You've actually got to stay in hospital for like a week at a time, every every
00:53:21
two or three weeks." So, it got bleer and bleaker. Uh and the and the odds have went from you know 80% to about
00:53:28
25%. Oh, >> you know they just said just statistically you know but you're young
00:53:32
and you know we can still so I was still trying to be optimistic but it was it was got harder and harder.
00:53:37
>> You scared or annoyed? >> I was a bit scared or annoyed is good. E it's a good
00:53:42
question. a little bit annoyed because it's so inconvenient. You got other plans. I want to think [ __ ] to do
00:53:47
>> and you do think I mean on the dark moments you know and I talk to lots of
00:53:51
patients nowadays about those moments where you you're sort of alone in your
00:53:55
room late at night or whatever and you think about what if I'm not around in 5
00:53:58
years time or 10 years time. What if I don't see my kids get married or see grandchildren or be retire with my
00:54:03
partner or whatever. So you do have that um but that's not a healthy place to
00:54:08
stay mentally. M uh you've got to think no no what okay the doctor said this
00:54:12
we're going to this the plan from here is this let's just do this next two or
00:54:15
three steps let's not get tragedy you know let's not over catastrophize so I
00:54:20
was constantly you know I didn't realize I do quite a bit of public speaking as
00:54:24
you mentioned I talk now about about the power of um a power of the mind to actually create different realities you
00:54:30
know the the way that we talk to ourselves and the language and the and the perceptions that we create actually
00:54:35
is like a muscle that we can train and while while you can't be completely naive to what's going on. You can
00:54:40
certainly build up a level of resilience that helps you. And I and I was doing that all that period of time. I was
00:54:45
doing things that were entertaining me like dressing up my my hotel room. I called it a hotel room, not a hospital
00:54:51
room. Putting up posters and making my visitors come in costume and just >> you do theme things like you pretend
00:54:58
you're in Fiji or Paris. And you weren't allowed to like turn up. All visitors
00:55:02
were welcome, but you weren't allowed there unless you were on. >> That's right. I had to wear costumes. I
00:55:05
remember like you go back to people like Jeremy Corbett and stuff turning up in a
00:55:08
big Mexican costume with a massive hat and a fake mustache and like walking through the hospital and like it's just
00:55:13
like that's the kind of silly stuff that you know comedians like doing to each
00:55:17
other as a bit of a joke. But it was like building up a it was a it was showing people that I was still you know
00:55:23
me and B it was I didn't realize but it was helping me work out ways of dealing
00:55:28
with the stress cuz again if you just sit there watching this little chemo drip going for days and days and you
00:55:33
you'll be driven mad. So, you've got to do things that actually put you more in
00:55:37
this kind of sense of control and um giving you a sense of um uh I I am a principal. I mean, I I've got agency
00:55:45
here, you know, I'm not just a victim in my situation. And that was such an important mindset to get out of victim
00:55:50
mentality. >> Um but but it was hard, you know, I had to do that for months and months and
00:55:55
months. The the three months I told my boss turned into, oh, it's now five. Oh,
00:55:59
it's now seven. Uh oh, it's probably 10. You know, it's like kept going longer
00:56:03
and longer and longer. Yeah. [ __ ] >> It's like when you start a home
00:56:05
renovation, e and like they give you a quote. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then you find out
00:56:10
there's asbestos there or there's something. >> Actually, isn't that's not a bad
00:56:14
analogy. Yeah. Yeah. They they they got underneath the they ripped up. Oh, hang on. There's more while we're in there.
00:56:20
That's right. Yeah. It's going to cost a lot more and take a lot longer.
00:56:23
>> But no, it and it, as I say, that was months and months and months. And I got
00:56:27
to the point after 10 months or whatever of of just the standard New Zealand treatment, you know, they we'd stop a
00:56:33
chemo and they'd try a different thing and then we had to go back to we went to
00:56:36
a different hospital, you know, escalating all the time, escalating. And it was they were going to do this thing
00:56:41
called a bone marrow transplant, which is um a pretty awful sounding procedure. >> Um and it just got to the point where
00:56:49
they said, "Actually, there's no point doing it because we know it's not going
00:56:51
to work for you." So we're at this point. It's like a little hoham moment.
00:56:55
What are we going to do now? And that was when it all, you know, turned to custard and the doctor said, "Look, we
00:57:00
think you probably got less than a year to live and um maybe we should consider stopping treatment now. You're pretty
00:57:06
beaten up. Had a lot of chemotherapy by this point." I was looking pretty I look
00:57:09
at the photos of myself then and it's awful. I was very gaunt, very lost a lot
00:57:14
of weight, 20 probably 20 kilos, you know. I could probably lose some some of that again now. But um but I look at it
00:57:20
and it's just like, wow, that was a really tough time. And it and that's
00:57:23
where lots of patients are finding themselves still. You know, I talk to patients in those positions quite
00:57:27
regularly sadly and it's it's you wouldn't wish it on anybody. You know,
00:57:31
you have it's there's no choice. Suddenly you're you go from being in the
00:57:35
safe hands of a doctor in a medical system to going actually there's nothing
00:57:38
left. >> What are we going to do now? >> You so that moment where you get told um
00:57:46
>> by the way you've got a great movie on Neon um called A Touch of Cancer which
00:57:50
which I I watched last night. Oh. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. One thing, um, >> so, so the the dress the dressing up
00:57:56
thing that we talked about before and and the the turn of phrase and the words you came up with like club med and, uh,
00:58:01
chemo kowir kimono kimono. >> Um, and and the footage you were taking, what what was what was that footage for?
00:58:08
Like what was the intention with it at that point? >> When we were doing it way back, I didn't
00:58:11
know that we were going to do a te like we got approached to do this documentary, which is cool. Yeah. And
00:58:15
and Annie, the director, and Irene, amazing. They they they took what turned out to be sort of a year's worth of
00:58:21
footage and made a very lovely thing. And it's not just about me, it's about
00:58:24
some other patients as well. But we were at the time um John, my mate for John Bridges was the producer of the project,
00:58:31
the TV show, The Project. Um >> that's when I first heard about regular updates.
00:58:36
>> They did. And so John being an opportunistic what kind of friend does this by the way? Answer me this Tom.
00:58:42
Like he calls me up and he said, "Oh, David, I heard you got cancer." Yeah.
00:58:46
can we do a story about it? And I was like, oh, okay. And actually, can we do a series and follow you? It was like,
00:58:51
oh, okay. But it was I mean, of course, you got to do that for your friend, but it was lovely. So, they did the series.
00:58:56
So, they were getting me to do selfies and they would send a crew every now and then over about a year they followed me
00:59:01
and it was wonderful cuz again, it and I I'm I'm joking about it cuz it was
00:59:04
amazing way again. >> It helped me so much later because when I needed help that so many people had
00:59:10
seen stuff on TV, bought into it. And I remember getting remember like John getting a a beautiful um little old
00:59:18
lady. It sounds terrible, but he got a check in the mail when when they found out that I had spent a million dollars
00:59:22
to go little check from a little old lady for $20 and said, "Can you please
00:59:26
pass this to David DS because we want to help him?" And it was that so it was
00:59:29
amazing. But yeah, so because of that, we were documenting the whole thing. And my wife's a TV director um by
00:59:34
profession. So, you know, she again, I'd be lying in the hospital having had a
00:59:39
blood transfusion or whatever and she'd whip out the camera and get some B-roll.
00:59:43
It's like, so we just have heaps of that sort of stuff. But, so, so when when
00:59:48
you're filming that stuff and you're the central character in the story, are you
00:59:51
thinking it's going to be it's going to be a happy ending that can be shared or
00:59:54
you think it's a love story to your friends and family? >> It could have been. Yeah. I mean, it we
00:59:57
we had no idea at the time. Of course, looking back retrospectively, it's it's
01:00:01
all leading to this beautiful conclusion with this amazing happy ending, but it could have been just as easily a story
01:00:07
of, you know, of of something quite different. >> So, I hadn't thought about it and but I
01:00:11
also thought it would be useful for my children and others to see that part of the journey. There's still, you know,
01:00:16
heaps of that video footage and stuff like that. I haven't looked at it for a
01:00:20
long time, but they used it. They went they crawled through it all for that um doco and and again, and then they sent a
01:00:26
crew with me on some of my trips to America. um which is really cool as well and they were there the moment that you
01:00:31
know the doctor said you're cured you know they were the crew happened to be
01:00:34
there it was just amazing that we had that all now on documented for us so yeah mild touch cancer on neon
01:00:40
>> yeah it's great great by the way well worth a watch um >> yes so so that moment you're in the room
01:00:44
and you've done all all the you've exhausted all possibility in New Zealand
01:00:47
and the oncologist says you know um get your affairs in order you've got 6 to 12
01:00:50
months you should think about how you spend it >> what um >> yeah who's in the room how do you what
01:00:57
do you what do Well, that that particular moment was really wild. It was John, my my my best friend, uh,
01:01:04
Brian Bridges, one of my best friends. Um, my wife Katherine, my brother John, also called John,
01:01:08
>> and then the the doctor Anna, who's now a good friend, actually. She's a very
01:01:12
good friend. Um, and it was really tough because they were all quite emotional, including Anna, very emotional telling.
01:01:17
Imagine having to tell a patient. I' I have such sympathy in for doctors in this scenario where I have to tell you
01:01:24
I've got no more treatment for you but I know that there might be something somewhere else you know but I can't get
01:01:28
it you know I talk to doctors about that all the time but that so that was a really tough moment of being say
01:01:34
actually let's take this opportunity and John John was there John Bridges was
01:01:37
there because he was helping document like he was helping um you know write up our notes and stuff like that cuz you
01:01:42
it's always good to have a support person um but yeah it was it was crazy but that again that was the moment you
01:01:48
almost that it was literally that day that I connected back with Mike and said we need help and he start and then it
01:01:54
started us off in a whole another journey of connecting and finding these clinical trials and we we got busy
01:01:59
basically which was in that room you're not like well well I'm fed >> no no there was a bit of that there was
01:02:05
definitely a bit of oh my god what are we going to do now but I immediately got busy and went right and I remember
01:02:09
Katherine telling my my kids we had to sort of break it to the kids what was going on and dad she said look dads you
01:02:15
know we've we've lived all around the world we navigate quite complicated
01:02:18
business things. If there's a solution somewhere in the world, we'll find it.
01:02:22
Which which was a great vote of confidence for me. But um but we did which is amazing through through such
01:02:28
generosity of other people helping. Um but yeah, that was the way that I dealt with it was by getting busy, you know,
01:02:34
and going right, okay, let's make a plan. How if we go to America, how what about visas? How are we going to pay for
01:02:38
it? You know, how do we travel? It was it was like assembling your army around you. And um yeah, quite incredible. And
01:02:45
then my, you know, family and friends just swung in and helped and it was just just amazing.
01:02:51
>> Did you think you were going to die? >> There was times, dear, definitely. Yeah,
01:02:55
there were times, I mean, I sort of, again, I'm quite optimistic, so I was always going, "No, no, we're going to
01:03:00
find a pathway." But there'd be other times I'd go, "What right have I to
01:03:03
think that I'm going to be any different than anyone else who finds himself in
01:03:06
this situation?" And there were definitely times where you go that might not end well, you know, and it and we
01:03:11
have to plan for that, you know, and think about what will happen for Katherine and the kids. And it was it
01:03:17
was much harder for Katherine, I think, in that scenario than it would have been
01:03:20
for me cuz I she's dealing with all these different versions of future reality and trying to keep the kids kind
01:03:25
of normal and they're at school and and for I had the singular task of trying to
01:03:30
get better whereas she had this much more complicated task. But yeah, as I say, there were definitely times where
01:03:35
we talked about, okay, what will happen if I'm not around in a couple of years
01:03:38
time or a year's time? What what will you do? >> Yeah. Which is a hard conversation, but
01:03:43
a bonding one. You know, Kath and I have been married 30 years now and um and we've got very good rel tight
01:03:50
relationship with our children and our and you know, we're stronger family unit
01:03:53
for this. I wouldn't want to do it again. I wouldn't wish that on anyone,
01:03:57
but boy, it brings you together. >> How was it on the kids? >> Tough on the kids. Yeah. Tough. they the
01:04:03
youngest ones, you know, the younger ones, they're not quite following it when it first starts and it just becomes
01:04:08
part of life and then all of a sudden it goes, "Oh, hang on." And they sort of
01:04:10
realized how bleak it could be. And there was definitely uh sort of post-traumatic stress stuff that
01:04:16
happened for the whole family. And you know, they still, you know, and for a long time worried about me, you know,
01:04:23
like what if it comes back and you know, if I went away, you know, for work or whatever, oh, they'd be worried.
01:04:29
>> So, it's actually this weird thing. And I've got this personality where I just
01:04:32
get on and okay next I go on woo, you know, I'm happy clappy. But it's not the
01:04:37
case for everybody that they're like that. They they a bit harder to deal with. So I had to sort of stop myself
01:04:42
after a little while and go I better be a bit more attentive to other people's
01:04:46
needs, not just my own. >> So you're in coms with um this guy Mike, the FISA guy in New York, and he's like
01:04:53
great, we can get you into into Boston for this experimental thing. >> Um but it's going to cost a million
01:04:58
bucks. >> Yeah. He didn't say that. The poor guy. He he put me in touch. The hospital was
01:05:02
the one who came back and said, "Yeah, yeah, we think we can get you in." And
01:05:04
they literally sent me this email going, "It's a million. We think estimated
01:05:08
price $1 million >> and we want it all up front." >> Uh, >> you tell you tell a great joke in that
01:05:14
documentary like, "Oh, can I pay 50% now, 50%?" Yeah. Yeah. We're not better.
01:05:19
>> Did you actually say that? Yeah, I did. I did. >> A great line. >> Well, we we we met some friends and you
01:05:24
know, like who one of them had worked in the American health system. She's American. And she
01:05:29
said, "You know you can negotiate." And it's like such a foreign concept. I go,
01:05:32
"What do you mean you negotiate?" She just said, "Tell them you're not going
01:05:34
to pay." What? You can do that? She said, "Yeah, yeah. Think of it like
01:05:38
Harvey Norman, like, okay, I see that's your price, but I've got a better price
01:05:41
from someone else, so can I pay you half?" And all this sort of stuff. So, we I just cheekily started doing that.
01:05:46
And um yeah, it kind of worked out. They did, you know, we And then the other thing is um we needed to get to see the
01:05:52
doctor as soon as possible. Like he said, "We need you to come to Boston. We
01:05:55
got to do these final tests to make you absolutely can get in." But they couldn't he wouldn't give me he couldn't
01:06:00
give me an appointment. The hospital refused to give me an appointment unless we transferred like $100,000.
01:06:05
All this sort of stuff went on and then finally one of the nurses and this is an
01:06:08
amazing story always in the health system. The nurses one of the nurses got hold of me by email and she said just
01:06:13
book your trip and I'll I'll make sure he's got a gap in his diary. If you're
01:06:17
here next Tuesday or whatever um book your trip. So we just sort of went back to them, booked the trip, told them,
01:06:23
"Oh, we're going to be there next Tuesday." And they go, "What? What? No,
01:06:26
we can't. Oh, we haven't received your payment. Oh, well, we're there next
01:06:28
Tuesday. And um I think I gave him $10,000 instead of $100,000. This is the kind of weird negotiations. And then uh
01:06:36
yeah, we had the meeting. And then basically, and the doctor, he became a good mate, too, actually. Afterwards, he
01:06:40
said, "The moment you walked into my room, you know, the hypocratic oath says, you are my patient." And all that
01:06:46
other stuff about payment, that's the hospital's problem. That's not my
01:06:49
problem. My problem is you. And once you're in my care, you're in my care. It
01:06:52
was like a really powerful demonstration of professional, you know, ethics. So, he said, "Don't worry about all that."
01:06:58
And then from then on, actually, that's he kept doing things like that. Okay, we
01:07:01
won't do that test. You don't really need it. Uh, we'll do one PET scan, not
01:07:04
two. You know, he was, "I'll try and keep you out of hospital. You can stay
01:07:07
in the apartment across the road. That'll lower the price." So, everything
01:07:11
he was doing was kind of in my interests, kind of against his employer. Hope they're never listening. But
01:07:17
>> I'm just trying to keep cost down as much as >> he's just trying to keep the cost down.
01:07:20
That's American health system. It's so ridiculous. I mean, it still costs
01:07:23
hundreds of thousands of dollars, but it wasn't the million that they told me it
01:07:26
was going to cost. Yeah. >> Um there there's a great line. You might remember it. I I I don't want to attempt
01:07:31
it cuz I'll mess it up, but on that um a Touch of Cancer documentary about selling the house.
01:07:35
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Can you remember what that line is? >> I do. It was It was a conversation
01:07:39
between my wife and I cuz again when we had this quote of a million dollars and we just didn't have the money,
01:07:45
>> but we have a we had a home but we didn't we own it. We still have a
01:07:47
mortgage. you know, Ken um and I were talking and she said, "Well, we'll just
01:07:51
put the house on the market. We'll sell the house. That'll get us enough money
01:07:54
maybe to get a deposit or whatever on this treatment." And I, you know, really
01:07:59
clearly it was late at night. We were talking about this is the sort of the day after I'd been diagnosed as as
01:08:04
terminal. And I said, "No, that's you can't sell the house cuz if we sell the
01:08:08
house, there's no guarantee I'm this treatment is going to work. could spend
01:08:11
all of this money and then I'll I could still die and then you'll spend the rest
01:08:17
of your life broke and penalous with the kids. And she said, you know, that's not
01:08:21
the worst case scenario, David. The worst case scenario for me is we don't sell the house. We know you'll die.
01:08:28
That's what we've just been told. And then she said, I'll spend the rest of my
01:08:31
life wondering what might have been. >> [ __ ] I still get a bit teary. Sorry. Cuz it's
01:08:37
like, wow, what a moment in your in your marriage. And it was just like far out that was.
01:08:43
And I had to put myself into her perspective and go, "Yeah, that would be awful. Imagine." And this is the
01:08:48
scenario. This is why I'm so passionate about the stuff I do. Thank you for reminding me. Cuz I meet people like
01:08:54
this today having these conversations with their partners going, "We can't
01:08:58
afford it, but if we don't do it, this is going to happen." Then you know what
01:09:01
happens to you and uh and this this complicated emotional state they find themselves in. So
01:09:06
>> yeah, so we put the house on the market. Like that was the the only decision.
01:09:10
Then called up a friend who was a real estate agent, you know, and and that was Yeah. horrific as well cuz then suddenly
01:09:17
you're having to tell everyone why we got house on the market. Oh, cuz of this
01:09:20
incredible. And then people go, "Oh my god." You know, like you life again. We
01:09:23
were already quite public. Like I'd already been writing in stuff about having cancer, but now we're telling
01:09:28
people about our financial problems like we can't afford it. We haven't got the
01:09:31
money. And and yeah, but it was it was just such a a moment. Yeah. Again, from a marriage point of view, we married 30
01:09:39
years. Those that was one of the real points in our marriage where we came closer together.
01:09:44
>> Yeah. That um that line in the documentary, it set me off last night just out of the blue.
01:09:49
>> Well, I thought like I don't know, maybe it's a male thing, but I think I'd think
01:09:53
of it the same perspective as you. You think about the big picture and then um her line, it's just like a an epiphany
01:09:58
sort of. >> It is an epiphany of how different people think and um about and you know
01:10:02
how Katherine had to think. But imagine her life if if I hadn't done it. And
01:10:08
either it's just awful to think about all these scenarios. And you know again
01:10:12
I meet people I know people who have found themselves in those different scenarios of a selling everything and
01:10:17
still the partner passes away or b not selling and now going oh my god if only we got there quicker. if we only could
01:10:23
do this more. And some of the other people who are involved in this go the distance challenge for the Malagan
01:10:28
Institute are people I met because of these situations and they >> they just want to help like we do.
01:10:35
>> When you started going to Boston, did it did it feel like um did it feel like
01:10:39
hope or did it feel like the last roll of the dice? >> It felt quite funny actually. It was I
01:10:42
feel um it felt like the last roll of the dice definitely like we were just like right we're all in again. I'm I'm
01:10:48
just like right let's do it. The opportunity has presented itself. we don't get two chances like this. We've
01:10:53
got to go for it. Flying out there. Catherine came with me the first trip when it was just the assessment cuz we
01:10:58
just wanted to I've never been to Boston. Um never spent any time on the east coast of the US and um and so we
01:11:06
thought well we got to make the most of this. So we went and visited you know normalized things for us like what was
01:11:11
quite an abstract idea became concrete. you could, you know, the hospital's good
01:11:14
and the people are great and the doctor's really nice and it's quite similar to what we've done before and
01:11:19
Boston as a city is cool and so we so that that helped a lot for us both to go actually I can actually now visualize
01:11:26
myself doing this. It's not so fanciful so weird like when you're sitting here
01:11:31
in New Zealand and someone says to you you can go on this clinical trial and it's this and and you just go I can't I
01:11:36
can't visualize that. I don't know how that would work. So, so that helped a
01:11:39
lot. But we also had some amazing cool things that happened. Like we went to Boston, we went went to the doctor, did
01:11:44
all this thing, and then we thought, right, we're in Boston. What do we do now? Go to the Cheers bar cuz it was the
01:11:49
only thing we knew about Boston. So Kath and I went, we might not ever be here again, and it might not end well, so
01:11:54
let's go to the Cheers Bar. So we went to the bar that they shot the, you know,
01:11:57
the comedy chairs in cuz again, bit of a comedy nerd. It looks nothing, the inside of it looks nothing like the
01:12:03
outside like the like the movie. But this is another quick coincidence. I loved it. I hope you don't mind me
01:12:08
telling you, but we ended up sitting in this tiny little bar and we're opposite
01:12:11
each other. It's packed and everyone's around us and Kath and I having dinner,
01:12:14
cheap, shitty, you know, burgers, whatever that you have. And we were talking about what had been going on
01:12:18
that day. And we saw the doctor and we're talking about the scenarios. And as we finished our dinner, this lovely
01:12:22
old man next to us um turned to us and he he was about to leave and he said, "I
01:12:27
hope you don't mind. It's almost impossible not to listen to you." And
01:12:29
he'd been dialing by himself. He said, "I just heard I understand that you're
01:12:32
going through this cancer and you're new." And he said, "This is incredible.
01:12:35
my wife's had cancer and I know all about it and he said, "Look, if you do
01:12:38
end up coming back to Boston, here's my number and he gave me his number, Frank." And so anyway, I did end up
01:12:44
going back to Boston. So I called him, random guy from a bar. And um we've turned now we're great mates, me and
01:12:50
Frank. I go, I've stayed at his place a few times. His wife is wonderful. Uh
01:12:54
his, you know, he's in his 90s now, Frank. And he just he's just this wonderful guy. He took me to some
01:12:59
basketball games. And so he was just um that's what happens when you sort of
01:13:03
open yourself up. and then his son and daughter-in-law have and their son have come and visited us now and we've kind
01:13:09
of family friends and you know it's it's amazing. So we we we're just so lucky
01:13:13
that these sorts of things happen again if you open yourself if you allow yourself to be open to opportunities
01:13:18
that's what kind of happens. >> Yeah, that's a thing that's a really
01:13:20
good takeaway. >> So you do 12 trips to is it just like once a month? Once a month you go over
01:13:24
>> pretty much. >> And and and the Karti treatment like what is it? >> Oh, cool. Here we go. Here's the Karti.
01:13:30
So Karti cell therapy. So essentially um it's I had cancer and the way that we
01:13:35
predominantly deal with cancer we humans is uh surgery or radiation or um some sort of chemical to try and kill it. So
01:13:44
all of those treatments are trying to kill the cancer or get rid of the cancer out of your body. And that's the reason
01:13:49
that cancer is still one of the biggest challenges health challenges is it's so
01:13:53
difficult to do to treat because it's our own body. It's not a foreign thing
01:13:56
coming in. our own body cells have have mutated in a way that our immune system and our and our body just can't handle
01:14:02
it and they're they're growing and growing and growing and but the the rest
01:14:06
of your body just doesn't notice if you like but killing it is quite difficult
01:14:11
you know we've all of human history we've been trying to do it so this CT
01:14:15
cell therapy is a form of immunotherapy so the idea is that those three things you know they there's good things that
01:14:21
happen but sometimes it doesn't work in amunotherapy you're doing something
01:14:25
completely different you're saying rather than try and kill cancer Why don't we try and harness the immune
01:14:29
system somehow? So there are lots of different types of immunotherapies, but the one that seems to be really showing
01:14:34
a lot of promise is this thing called car T- cell therapy. So TE-C cells are part of everyone's immune system. We've
01:14:41
all got them. When you cut your hand and you get a slight red thing or when you get a cold and you get sort of sore
01:14:47
under the arms or you get a bit weepy, that's your immune system working. The
01:14:50
tea cells are going around and they're finding infection and they dup replicating themselves and and doing
01:14:56
their job. And they do an amazing job of it as I said earlier. So the idea is instead of trying to kill cancer, could
01:15:02
we harness those tea cells if they knew what cancer looked like maybe they could
01:15:06
do the job of killing the cancer. So what we so the all the sort of treatment uh research went into can we retrain tea
01:15:13
cells to kill cancer and that's what CT cell therapy is and it sort of started
01:15:17
about 20 20ish years ago in the states with some early early research. um it it hit the mainstream maybe sort of 8 to 10
01:15:25
years ago like I was one of the first clinical trials in humans um and it and it's proven to be very very successful
01:15:32
particularly for blood cancers so training the immune system so the way they do it they take out the tea cells
01:15:36
out of the body u which is basically like giving blood and then they genetically re-engineer those tea cells
01:15:42
put a little bit of extra um DNA into the cells or RNA and and it it makes the te- cell kind of recognize the cancer by
01:15:50
by training it what cancer looks like it has a little receptor on the outside of
01:15:53
these tea cells and then when they put them back in the body it's like a little
01:15:57
Pac-Man running around. It can now see cancer cells and it just does what it what it normally trained to do. It just
01:16:02
goes and kill them. Goes and attaches to them, sends them a little signal that the cells self-destruct basically. But
01:16:09
because it's a living treatment, your own tea cells in your own body doing what they're basically normally doing.
01:16:15
It's very kind of elegant. It's very um simple sounding. But the technology and
01:16:20
the science behind it is incredible. You know, you are genetically re-engineering
01:16:24
human cells in a way that can't replicate. These cells are just, you know, wouldn't exist um unless they were
01:16:30
back inside the same body they've been taken from. Um but that's why it's so
01:16:33
expensive cuz it's like literally cellby cell genetic modification. It's um you
01:16:38
know a lot of testing and safety and things like that. So the most of the treatments that have been happening in
01:16:44
the world have done by these global farmer companies in other in other countries and the massive you know big
01:16:49
corporates doing this. It's a billions of dollars of research going into it. Um
01:16:55
and so little countries like New Zealand are never going to get that stuff. You know we just we're not a 5 million
01:17:00
population does not make sense for them to bring that treatment to New Zealand. It's too expensive. Um which is why
01:17:06
again the Malagan Institute is so important. That's why I'm so passionate
01:17:10
about this. There is no other choice. We'll always be going to China or America or whatever for treatment unless
01:17:15
we can do this sort of stuff ourselves. >> What would it cost? How much would it
01:17:19
cost to bring it here? >> Well, the Yeah. Well, so at the moment patients are spending about between $400 and a
01:17:27
million. $400,000 and a million dollars each and that's plus travel and stuff.
01:17:32
to do it in New Zealand. The clinical trial we we're doing at the Malagan Institute is going to cost us around 20
01:17:37
million and that that will treat 60 patients. Um, and we're we're about 2/ird of the way through that. So that
01:17:44
20 million is already good value. Um, as you can see, it's a lot cheaper than what we're
01:17:50
spending overseas, but it'll quickly get a lot cheaper because once we've scaled
01:17:54
up manufacturing, you know, the the Malagan Institute's got a spin out company called Biora that is going to
01:18:00
create a manufacturing plant in Christ Church that will bring the price down. Um, having more patients with more
01:18:06
different types of cancer use it will bring the price down. So, everything everything means that we are much more
01:18:11
in control of our own destiny. And you could get you could get it down to under the public system, we think it could be
01:18:16
free. Um, I mean, I I'm not the Minister of Health yet, but um, watch this space,
01:18:22
but um, but it's a joke, by the way. Um, but but you can see why it makes a hell
01:18:28
of a lot of sense to do this in house in New Zealand. You the New Zealand government today is spending money
01:18:32
quietly sending people overseas, spending millions of dollars at a time. If they just spent that in New Zealand,
01:18:37
we could treat, you know, dozens more patients than than we can at the moment. So, yeah. So, it it it could get to the
01:18:43
point where it's it's getting close to free. >> Mhm. Well, it's just a horrible thought
01:18:47
to think that any New Zealander is dying just because they don't have the means
01:18:50
or the money to get some treatment that have an impact. >> Well, this is the inequity issue that we
01:18:55
often see that is there are treatment options available. There's kitrudas or
01:18:58
there's you can go over and get um >> uh deratusab or you know there's these
01:19:02
drugs that are amazing but you have to go overseas to get them or you have to buy them privately or whatever. So
01:19:07
there's just this inequity that forms really quickly and when you're in the
01:19:11
position and you need it, you know, I have no debate. Go for it. If you've got
01:19:14
the money, go for it, buy it, whatever. But we need to set up a system that it does not require me to have a
01:19:19
high-profile, you know, a lot of people putting money into a give a little account, you know, the ability for me to
01:19:24
travel. All of those things are such barriers for people that we have to make it more equitable. And um and that's
01:19:30
why, you know, people like me need to get involved because I had the privilege to be able to have all those things that
01:19:36
got me the treatment. >> Um but not not other many other people don't have that. So if people like me
01:19:41
don't stand up for them, who's going to? Also, there's a lot of shy private
01:19:44
people. So, there's a lot of people that really don't want to die, but they'd
01:19:47
probably rather die than have like a big fuss mate about them, like a give a little page or
01:19:51
>> I've met so many patients like that. I mean, because I'm quite visible still.
01:19:55
Um, if you Google cancer, you'll probably find me pretty quickly. Um, >> but I get lots of people contact me and
01:20:00
a lot of it is that exact scenario of I I can't go over. I don't know. I've
01:20:04
never been overseas, you know, literally. Um, or I don't know how to find that amount of money and I'm not
01:20:09
going to ask anyone for money, you know. So, >> pride. >> Yeah. pride or or shyness or you know
01:20:14
whatever. So many reasons all valid and I'm not debating them but um that's why
01:20:19
the system has to change. You can't rely on individuals selling you know literal
01:20:23
tin cans outside their house to try and raise a little bit of money to go overseas or or give a little which is
01:20:28
not a sustainable way to run a health system. And if you step back and go actually what's you know it makes
01:20:33
business sense if you like for New Zealand too. There's a societal benefit. We're spending a hell of a lot of money
01:20:39
on uh a small number of people to try and you know do bone marrow transplants or whatever it would be. If we could get
01:20:45
early interventions and early testing and better treatments, yes uh the cost per patient might look high at the
01:20:52
beginning, but actually when you take it all into account, it makes a hell of a lot of sense to do it. So that's the
01:20:55
kind of arguments that um we're working with through with um government at the
01:20:59
moment. >> Yeah. So your personal experience with KT treatment, what's it like? It sounds
01:21:04
like it's just a blood test. Yeah. Does it knock you out or not really? >> Does it It does a little bit. Yeah. I
01:21:09
mean, it's not trivial. Um and it's when I did it, it was quite experimental. So,
01:21:13
it was there was no guaranteed outcome, but it but yeah, the the experience of it is a lot simpler than a normal cancer
01:21:19
um chemotherapy or whatever chemotherapy. Most of the way that cancer patients feel really bad is
01:21:24
because of the treatment, not because of the cancer. You know, chemotherapyy's
01:21:27
got awful side effects. Um whereas this doesn't have as many side effects. And
01:21:31
in fact, all the time they're getting fewer and fewer. the the I I had virtually no side effects from it. So,
01:21:36
it was yeah, you go in, give blood, which sounds trivial, but it took six hours and you can't move your arm, so
01:21:41
it's not nothing. Um, but then they send them off to a lab and then you've got
01:21:45
like I had two weeks and this is going back me and Katherine were in Boston and we were going, "Oh, go to the art
01:21:50
galleries." And, you know, we had a great time. So, so we just were waiting for the for
01:21:55
the blood to come back. When the blood comes back, it's an injection. Um, you
01:21:59
would have seen it on the doco. Very kind of underwhelming in some ways. They just bring in this little chili bin,
01:22:04
open it up, dry ice everywhere. That's the most dramatic thing that happens.
01:22:07
Apart from that, it's really boring. Um, and then they just inject it back in,
01:22:11
and then it's like, okay, now what? You just wait. And you normally, you know, I
01:22:15
was supposed to go into a hospital room and wait, but they let me stay in the hotel over the road. As I say, the
01:22:19
doctor was amazing. So, as long as you're just right across the road >> and if anything goes wrong, get back in
01:22:24
as quickly as you can. Um, but that saves like, you know, $5,000 a day on hospital in in US. But yeah, so the
01:22:31
experience was great. And then sort of 30 days later, um, they do a test. In the meantime, I felt like I had the flu.
01:22:37
Like, cuz that's again the way the immune system works. It's the same symptoms. It's, you know, you get puffy,
01:22:42
you get sore under the arms, you get a little bit sort of we, you know, drippy nose or whatever because it feels like
01:22:49
the flu because it's the same mechanism of action that's happening inside. And
01:22:53
then that goes away. And it was like, "Wow, that was pretty mild." You know,
01:22:56
which is ironic cuz I called it a mild touch of the cancer cuz when I was first diagnosed, I felt like I had a mild flu
01:23:01
and that was how I got diagnosed. And then this treatment was like a mild flu again.
01:23:05
>> So all this all these sort of synergies. >> Um but yeah, so from a patient point of
01:23:09
view, very very different. >> Yeah. >> So that year flying between New Zealand
01:23:13
and Boston 12 times, did you >> Yeah. Yeah. What was what was it like? Did it just feel like your life was in
01:23:17
limbo? Did you feel like you were getting better? >> Definitely. Oh, I definitely felt
01:23:20
getting better. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean it was definitely the life in limbo. Thank God it was a nightmare. I mean, I look
01:23:25
at it now and go, "How did I do that? That was nuts." Like, what were you
01:23:28
doing between travel? >> I was working. I went back to work and again, my boss was amazing and I'm I'm
01:23:33
very blessed that um have a great team and everything. And I So, I wasn't on
01:23:37
full duty, so I was able to to just take, you know, uh a few days off for a week. Some of the trips were I would try
01:23:44
and hook some work stuff into it and and, you know, u make it sort of beneficial and but other times I was
01:23:49
just there and back. I'd already been there sort of a month ago and I needed
01:23:52
to go back and I could have stayed over there for the whole time but you know I've got a family and a life and a job
01:23:57
and stuff and so there were it was just so such an imposition and again this is going back to why it's so important to
01:24:04
have it in a place like New Zealand. Not only is the money crazy and the access crazy but there's no way most people
01:24:09
could do that. I was just incredibly privileged again to have a job that was already related to international travel
01:24:15
so I could kind of hook a bit of job stuff in a and a and a organization that said it's okay if you take an extra
01:24:20
couple of days don't worry about it um you know take time off in L or whatever.
01:24:24
Um so yeah just just so blessed to be able to have that experience. >> Great air points by the way.
01:24:32
Everyone asks you what's your ear points like great points. >> You end up with a lot of banged ears.
01:24:36
>> I did I've got like 12 banked ears now. pros and cons. >> Honestly, yeah, it's pros and cons.
01:24:41
Yeah. >> Yeah. A million bucks. Yeah. You got um >> Yeah. Do you get progress reports along
01:24:47
the way that like, oh, the cancer is dying or or you don't know until >> it's actually quite dramat? No, it was
01:24:52
actually quite dramatic. Um and this is again a bit of my choice. But the the from the day they give you the
01:24:58
treatment, which is just again a single injection. You're not getting any more
01:25:01
treatment from then on. It's just monitoring. 30 days later, they said it looks like all the cancer's gone. So you
01:25:07
actually you're in remission. It's 30 days. It's amazing. And but they can't
01:25:12
call you cured for quite a bit longer after that a couple of years or whatever. But so the treat the the trips
01:25:17
back after that were purely for the clinical trial to get data. It wasn't for me. There was no medical benefit to
01:25:23
me. And the doctor even said to me after one or you know the first trip or two he
01:25:28
said you know you don't have to come back. Like if you don't come back nothing will happen medically to you.
01:25:33
You'll be fine. >> And I said oh yeah but what will happen to my data? And he said, "Oh, we just
01:25:37
we'll take it out of the trial results." And I went, "Well, that's a bit crap,
01:25:39
isn't it?" Like the deal is you give me the treatment, you get the data, which
01:25:43
helps with the trial results, which help, you know, get this thing into market. So, I'll come back. So, so I
01:25:48
kept going back, but there was, as I say, no clinical benefit. Um, I was doing CT scans or PET scans. I was doing
01:25:54
blood tests and things like that, but they were they were not telling me anything new from from 30 days in. two
01:26:01
years later they said you know given that you've had two years and none nothing you you we'll call you cured
01:26:07
>> so that was a beautiful thing but they I didn't need to have done all that stuff
01:26:10
in the middle it was just my choice >> why after everything you've been through
01:26:13
why did you keep going back >> I felt this obligation again I've maybe
01:26:16
I'm brought up in a Catholic guilt environment I've always got this thing I
01:26:21
said I'd do it I'm going to do it though >> yeah it's really noble but I mean no no
01:26:25
one could hold it against you >> know and the even they say the doctor even said don't worry about it but I
01:26:29
knew that they only had a I think it was 100 patients doing the trial. My result
01:26:34
was really good. It would skew the results if I didn't, you know, they would have to take my own data out. So,
01:26:39
I've I felt this obligation, moral obligation to to do it. >> Um, yeah. And I and I stand by that. I
01:26:45
would still do that. And it's important to do the things you say you're going to
01:26:48
do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hearing you've been cured, what was that
01:26:51
moment like? >> That was pretty cool. >> Yeah, >> that was pretty cool. We captured it on
01:26:54
the um on the video, I think some of it. There was a moment there where I sort of
01:26:58
said to the doctor, "Can I use the C word?" And he's going, "What?" You know,
01:27:01
Americans don't have a great sense of use. He was, but what do you mean the C
01:27:05
word? Yeah. Cured. He was like, "Yeah, oh, okay. Yeah, good." And then I said,
01:27:08
"All right, let's call Katherine." Cuz she was back here in New Zealand. I was
01:27:10
in the States. So, got her on FaceTime and as we as as it's dialing, I said to
01:27:14
him, "Okay, Jeff, put on a really sad face." And he's going, "What?" He's go,
01:27:19
"Yeah, yep." And he's going because he get quite clicking. So, yeah. Sorry,
01:27:23
Cather. It's great results. It was Yeah. Anyway, >> oh, it's so cool. What What did you What
01:27:30
were the big things you learned about yourself after staring death in the face? >> Resilience is a big one. I mean, I'm I
01:27:35
Everyone has this depths that they can go to. They're not often tested, but um
01:27:40
we are human beings are remarkable about the extent to which you can um deal with
01:27:46
things. So, there's there's something there. I think also the power of um
01:27:51
perception and I talk a lot in my talks about this idea that we we frame up reality you know things happen facts and
01:27:58
and physical things happen in the world and we create the reality of what that means for us so we can create different
01:28:03
realities just by thinking differently you know when I was in hospital you know I could have chosen to be a victim of
01:28:09
the situation and feel sorry for myself the whole time or I could say what what can I do to be more in control so that
01:28:14
that's quite a there's quite a depth there um and then optimism I mean I on my LinkedIn profile you'll
01:28:21
know just now I I describe myself as a genetically modified optimist but optimism is a powerful thing and it's
01:28:27
not false you know hope and it's not hopefully it's not this sort of toxic
01:28:31
positivity that some people talk about but I do believe but by being by having a default stance of optimism you are
01:28:38
more open to possibilities you you see things in a different light you you you follow things that you might not
01:28:44
otherwise and it does create better outcomes so I think those are some of the key things.
01:28:48
>> Yeah. And and I suppose alongside optimism, it's just holding on to hope.
01:28:52
And without hope, there's not there's not a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. And hope hope with u
01:28:57
momentum, you know, like you've hope sitting on a in a room and just hoping something's going to get better won't
01:29:03
probably get you there. But hope married with some activity or action to get you
01:29:08
towards that. You know, if I had just hoped that someone would call me out of the blue and say there's a clinical
01:29:13
trial in Boston, it probably wouldn't happen. But I was putting myself out in
01:29:16
the world. you know, we're writing articles, there's a lot of work going
01:29:18
on. We were researching, we put ourselves in a state where that could actually turn into something. So, I
01:29:23
think hope without any activity is probably um a bit of a fool's errand, but you can actually, you know, generate
01:29:31
uh opportunities by putting yourself out in the world. >> Was it a weird transition back to normal
01:29:36
life after that? Like, I'm just wondering if you come that close to potential death, if you suddenly it
01:29:42
feels like you should be making the most of every day. The reality is you've got
01:29:45
this mortgage and >> Yeah, I do. I live this I live a very um joyful life, bountiful life at the
01:29:51
moment and a lot of it is driven by this need to think that I actually have to make the most of the time available. Um,
01:29:58
you know, again, you it sounds very deep, but when you've sort of literally had the terminal diagnosis, you got a
01:30:04
less than a year to live, you got 6 months to live, whatever. You you think very differently when it changes about
01:30:08
what's the value of time and what are you going to do and what's your legacy
01:30:13
that you want to leave. It's not about have you got a jet ski and, you know, a
01:30:17
bigger car than someone else or whatever. It's about what what can you do to make other people's lives better
01:30:22
and easier and what make the world a better place and all that. It sounds very again highutin, but to me it's
01:30:28
really important. You know, I step back and and often think is this is this the right thing? Could this be what's the
01:30:33
best outcome I can help create here? Um, and I'm blessed to be able to be in a
01:30:38
position to do that. Again, there's a privilege here. I've got, you know, I've
01:30:40
got a a great job and great people around me, supportive, loving family. I'm in a I'm in a privileged position if
01:30:47
I don't use that in the right way to help other people. You know, there's
01:30:52
days when I just go, "Oh god, here we go again. we're trying to raise more money
01:30:54
for the Malagan shoot. Oh god, I've got to go and walk 200 km for this bloom and
01:30:59
why did I say I would do this again? Oh, this is nuts. Or or you know, I find myself presenting the same story again.
01:31:06
>> Um but if you if I don't, then who's going to? >> Yeah, but it's funny how it'd be very
01:31:11
easy for like a couple of years or even 5 years afterwards to think, oh, you know, I'm lucky to be here. Don't sweat
01:31:16
the small stuff. Make the most of every day. But then after a while it's like
01:31:20
you just fall back into your old habits, old patterns, old routines. >> I do. I mean I I I still I'm back to
01:31:26
some of those old habits, old routines. I'm sure. Um again, we should get my
01:31:29
wife on here. She'll tell you what I'm but but I think it's hopefully now with
01:31:33
bit more purpose and and um and because I'm so involved with >> the Malagan Institute and Blood Cancer
01:31:39
New Zealand and and the Well Foundation, which is the charity for the Northshore
01:31:42
Hospital. So I've kind of got myself embedded in the in the parts of the system that I think I can have an impact
01:31:47
on. It's kind of part of my normal life now. And um and even in my in my jobs,
01:31:52
it's sort of agreed that I'm going to go and disappear and do stuff like that in
01:31:55
the cancer world every now and then. You know, tomorrow I'm taking a day off work
01:31:59
and I'm going down to Christ Church for the blessing and opening of the new Karti facility that they're that um it's
01:32:05
not the opening, it's the it's the they're starting work on it and um and
01:32:09
they've asked me to kind of MC it cuz that's one of the things I can do. So I
01:32:12
said, "Yeah, I can help with that." And that means they don't have to pay an MC.
01:32:15
Sorry, Jason Gun, you're not going to get that gig. >> It's all right. He's doing all right.
01:32:19
He's doing all right. >> The cats the gigs. Leave them to me. >> Um, what about the term survivors guilt?
01:32:26
>> Yeah. >> Is that something you >> Yes. It's interesting. I've get I do
01:32:30
think about this a lot. I do have a surviv the survivor's guilt is this concept that you know you and
01:32:35
particularly me I see other patients who don't get that outcome. You know I'm
01:32:38
very yeah as I say very visible. I get patients and their families calling me, you know, once or twice a week for the
01:32:46
last eight years. So, how many hundreds of people is that? And I definitely meet
01:32:49
people who don't survive. You know, I've been to lots of funerals and they are
01:32:55
often not that different than me, you know, personal life situation, whatever. Um, so you do realize every one of those
01:33:02
helps you realize the luck that came along on that journey and the opportunities that were presented to to
01:33:08
us and the people that helped us. And so yeah, it does create. I'm not sure it's
01:33:12
a guilt thing cuz guilt means sort of that I did something wrong, but it's definitely an obligation thing. Like
01:33:18
this is part of what drives me is very much this, right? I can't I can't sit
01:33:22
back and go, well, I'm all right, mate. You know, pull up the ladder, you're on
01:33:26
your own. If I'm in a position to help someone else, I'd like to be able to do
01:33:29
that. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. >> Yeah. What you're doing now is sort of
01:33:32
on a a bigger scale what you were doing by going back to Boston when you didn't
01:33:35
have to anymore. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's the same deal. But really when it's like like when they
01:33:40
first asked me to help out raising the Malagan said like we want to raise some money and the first little clinical
01:33:44
trial round was just a small clinical trial and they said we need to raise some money and how much could you raise
01:33:50
could you raise a million dollars and I went oh my god a million dollars that's
01:33:53
a like a resonant number cuz it's the same number I was told yeah I'll raise a
01:33:56
million dollars. I thought how the hell am I going to do this? I've never raised
01:33:58
like but we we did it and that was the first thing and I thought oh good I'm
01:34:02
done. I've kind of washed away my guilt. I am now free. And then they then the
01:34:07
Malagan guys come back. Oh, we're going to do this next one. It's going to cost
01:34:10
20 million. Do you want can you help out? It's like of course I can. I don't
01:34:14
know how you raise $20 million. But um I mean they've got a great team there that
01:34:18
do most of the work. I don't have to do anything really. But just turn up and
01:34:20
talk to people. But it is um it is. Yeah. And I don't think that'll be the
01:34:24
end of it. I think there'll be something else will pop out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 100 million.
01:34:28
>> That's right. Yeah. >> Do you do you feel um much different to
01:34:32
how you did 10 years ago? How are you the same? And how are you the how are you different?
01:34:35
>> Um I'm more I'm more of an intense version of myself I reckon. I was asking
01:34:40
my kids this actually. They said you're like a concentrated version. So yeah,
01:34:44
same sort of positive energy, love doing stuff. Um I'm probably less stressed
01:34:51
than I used to be in terms of it's little things will stress me out like I can't find a container lid.
01:34:58
But but I don't get too hung up on big thing, you know. Not too It takes a lot
01:35:02
to stress me out these days. and work stuff I can usually navigate through and you know so I'm I've leared you know the
01:35:08
boundaries of that sort of stuff. Um but I guess I spend I and I probably spend more time I I say yes to a lot of stuff.
01:35:14
That's probably the thing that's changed more is I'm more I'm more involved in
01:35:18
lots of different things which I have to sometimes just step back and go is it the right thing? Is it the best use of
01:35:22
my time? But >> mostly it is >> random podcasts. I I appreciate you being here today.
01:35:30
This is really cool. I love it. >> Are you um >> Yeah. Do you you made a joke before
01:35:34
about being the Minister of Health. Do you have any interest in politics? I was I was recently asked by one of the
01:35:39
political parties if I would get into politics and I said no thank you. Um I'm
01:35:43
not it's saying yes to things. I mean I would love to magically. I would love to
01:35:47
be Steven Joyce if you're listening. Joyce Joyce got the phone call and then
01:35:50
he was on the list and then he was the minister and I went can I have that? If I did that I'd be fine. I don't want to
01:35:55
go through the actual political like standing around handing out leaflets. And the other problem is I'm not
01:36:01
completely politically aligned. Like I I I have friends across the political spectrum. I'm friends with multiple
01:36:07
ex-ministers and ministers from different political parties. I admire many of them. Uh and I I I think about
01:36:14
the policies that they have and I can't see a particular one thing I'd tie
01:36:19
myself to cuz I um so I'm not political enough to be in politics if it were. And
01:36:25
also I think you I can probably have more influence outside the system than >> than in it at the moment.
01:36:30
>> Yeah, >> I had Sir Rod Rury on the podcast who's >> Rod's a great man.
01:36:33
>> A great man. He he said the same sort of thing. He can have more impact by not
01:36:36
being in politics than by actually being in >> help have a billion dollars up sleeve by
01:36:39
the way. But Rod's a great guy. He's a good friend and you know and he's doing
01:36:42
some incredible work and I was so pleased to see him get the New Zealander of the year and his nighthood and things
01:36:46
because >> yes, Zero was amazing and all of the IT stuff before that, but what he's doing
01:36:51
now is remarkable and that's a really good example. He's doing at scale the
01:36:54
sort of thing that I would have loved to. And I keep jokingly saying to him, "If you got a job, Rod, I'd come and
01:36:58
work for you." Um, but he doesn't employ anybody anymore. So, but he gave me a
01:37:04
tour of his house in his his amazing >> his basement. Could you >> Do you like the Stargate portal?
01:37:08
>> Oh my god, it's incredible. It's incredible. It is cool. It's like um
01:37:13
It's like a 20-year-old boy just got given a billion dollars or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's good. But it's I
01:37:18
don't I I love it cuz he's all he's doing all that and it's cool and he's
01:37:22
got the amazing cars and stuff which we probably shouldn't talk too much about
01:37:25
anyway. But he's also doing incredible things building a hospital. He's he's
01:37:29
you know um cycle trails. He's reforesting the hills behind his houses. Like he's doing amazing things for the
01:37:36
local community as well. So I don't begrudge anyone spending them spending money on themselves
01:37:40
>> if they're also doing all that other stuff. I do get pissed off when I see
01:37:44
very rich people who are so don't seem to have that kind of same sort of social
01:37:47
obligation that he >> seems and and it must be hard because you know you talked before about needing
01:37:51
you know $20 million or $10 million for this project or whatever and um I can't
01:37:55
imagine how many emails you know the likes of Rod Ry or Sir Peter Beck or the Mobres get
01:38:01
>> um yeah cuz the more the more money you've got I suppose you the bigger a
01:38:05
target you have on your >> back and many of them are amazing you know those some people give quietly some
01:38:10
people have foundations or family offices or whatever. And we are blessed in New Zealand that actually we do have
01:38:14
some incredible people who will give significance outs of money. I mean, for this 20 million, 6 million of it came
01:38:19
from one couple, you know, for example. And it was just uh they're quiet. They
01:38:23
don't want to be necessarily known who they are, but they they said, "We'll do
01:38:26
this." And then they also are very clever cuz they're business people. And
01:38:28
they said, "We'll give you six, but you got to match it. Find the other six to
01:38:31
match it." I was like, "Oh, that that's actually quite cool cuz you can go to
01:38:34
other people and go, if you give me a million, I'll actually get another million." You know, so it's like,
01:38:38
>> yeah, >> negotiating again. turned into a game >> a little bit. Yeah.
01:38:43
>> Are you still afraid of death? >> No. No. I'd be I'd be sad if it happened
01:38:48
tomorrow. Touchwood. Um but it doesn't worry me. I mean I mean I I hope I've
01:38:53
living a a bountiful and good life and I'm a good person and all that sort of
01:38:57
stuff and and my you know and I hope that I can leave would leave things in a good position for my family uh and for
01:39:04
my friends and stuff. But I'm not I'm not afraid of it. No. No. If you got
01:39:08
told today you had like three years or five years left, is there anything you'd
01:39:11
change? >> Uh, probably work a little bit less, but no, I think I'm, you know, I would probably
01:39:18
accelerate. This is probably, sorry, Katherine, my wife's getting less. I would go even harder and faster on some
01:39:23
of the things we're doing. You know, like trying to get this cancer treatment
01:39:25
into New Zealand is a real passion project for me. Um, but there's also other stuff that I'm involved in that I
01:39:32
think is really important. The things that could potentially, you know, really can change the fabric of our of our
01:39:37
country. Um, and I think there's stuff that I can still contribute to that. I
01:39:42
would probably go hard at that stuff. I wouldn't just go and sit on a an island
01:39:45
for I might do that for a week, but not for 3 years. No. >> You get the feeling you're you're a
01:39:51
negative relaxer. You got to be doing something. >> Yeah. I'm a shocker.
01:39:53
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Are there are there things that you you um used to take for granted
01:39:57
that you don't take for granted anymore? >> Um time with my wife and my family is
01:40:04
things that you know it sounds terrible e but when you're in your sort of 30s
01:40:07
and you're trying to build a career and you're trying to you know you think
01:40:12
you're fending you know for your family and bringing home the bacon and stuff
01:40:15
but actually you're probably distracted from the from the realities of being a
01:40:18
parent. I think that stuff I don't take for granted anymore. I love you know
01:40:22
spending time with my family. Um, so yeah, and Katherine and I in particular have got closer as we've got older. So
01:40:29
we we spend a lot of time together. Um, but yeah, and then your health is another thing you don't take for
01:40:34
granted. You know, your body as you get a bit older already starts to sort of creek and grown around you. So you've
01:40:40
got to be thoughtful about what are you doing to protect your health. And I've
01:40:43
I'm I'm better at that. I still have to constantly remind myself to exercise
01:40:46
properly and not drink too much and eat better and whatever, but I'm I'm more at
01:40:51
least I'm having those conscious thoughts now >> and acting on the most middle-aged thing
01:40:56
ever. E like you become obsessed with aging like in your sleep patterns. >> I haven't bought any Lyra yet. I mean,
01:41:01
that's when I think I really will have crossed the the entry. But yeah, >> I'm surprised you haven't. If you and
01:41:05
John Bridges are that close, he's obsessed with it. He's always in I reckon he's in Lyra probably 80% of the
01:41:10
time. I'm graciously letting that be his thing. Otherwise, we'd hang out too
01:41:14
much. So, John, you can have the Lyra and the wedgies and all that sort of stuff that you do when But he's I mean,
01:41:20
he's very very fit. He's doing really well. >> Um, but no, it's I health is an
01:41:25
important thing. You know, you've really got to cuz everything can change very
01:41:28
quickly if you're not healthy. >> Well, as you discovered immediately.
01:41:32
>> Yeah. >> Just with a a Friday doctor >> thought I had the flu and then suddenly
01:41:36
it was all went to custard. Yeah. You you do so much public speaking. You do a bunch of podcasts. Is there one thing
01:41:42
that you wish more people asked you about that they don't? Oh. Um I love it when people ask me how they
01:41:52
can help or how they can get involved. A lot of people go, "Wow, you do so much."
01:41:55
I go, "Yeah, I do, but you know, you could too." Um I'm happy for you to
01:41:59
help. I mean that. But what having said that, that sounds like I'm blaming other
01:42:02
people. What's been really cool, for example, we're doing this go the distance challenge with Malagans. Do you
01:42:06
see me? I'm such a pro dragging it back to the topic I want to talk about ignoring your question. But what's been
01:42:11
cool is I went out to a bunch of people and I said, "Would you join me and join
01:42:15
a team and do some fundraising?" And man, oh man, it's been great. So many of
01:42:18
them have said yes. They've got involved their fundraising. Um, so that is cool.
01:42:23
So I love it when people say, "Yeah, yeah, lean in." Because people just
01:42:26
sometimes need to be asked and shown a little way forward and then they can get involved in things like this. But
01:42:30
>> yeah, well anyone that's listening to this or watching this now, what can they
01:42:34
do? >> Go the distance. If you Google go the distance in New Zealand and you'll see
01:42:38
there's this it's going for the month of April basically all of the money will go
01:42:42
to the Malagan Institute as I say it's trying to close that gap so that people
01:42:45
don't have to go overseas and don't have to travel enormous amounts uh and don't
01:42:49
have to spend a lot of money and we can get this treatment in New Zealand and again I've just come back to it's not um
01:42:56
this is such a a positive thing we we talk so often in the health system about the deficit we have in the health system
01:43:01
and it is we've got big gaps we can't afford these medications and we wish we
01:43:04
were this and we're this far behind Australia, whatever. This is something where we can actually get back and lead
01:43:09
again and um and we're very close to having it done now. So, we are going the
01:43:14
distance. We're going to have this clinical trial paid for. I'm going to
01:43:17
finish it by August. We got a couple of million bucks to go wherever it is and then we hope that it'll quickly then
01:43:23
make its way into the public health system. >> Yeah. You cancer picked the wrong guy,
01:43:28
but also also the right guy. The right guy. One of my kids said that said, "Oh,
01:43:32
if anyone got cancer, I'm glad it was you, Dad." It was like what? I said,
01:43:35
"Oh, cuz you could deal with it." Um, >> you could deal with that. Not only that,
01:43:38
but you've you've done so much for so many since then. >> Oh, thank you. I'm still still more to
01:43:42
go. More to go. >> Yeah. What are your best and worst habits? >> Ah,
01:43:46
uh, best habit, my positivity and optimism. Like I I constantly reframing. It's now just not even I don't even
01:43:53
consciously do it. I'm always thinking, okay, what's what's good about this? How
01:43:55
can I make the most of this? What's, you know, what what's the good thing that's
01:43:58
going to happen? That skills I learned during hospital actually. you know, two years of trying to do that to yourself
01:44:03
means it's just sort of a natural habit. Worst habit is uh I'm not exercising
01:44:09
enough. I'm physically a bit lazy at times. I've got to force myself. I don't
01:44:12
enjoy it. I enjoy being fit, but I don't enjoy the the gym and all that sort of
01:44:16
jazz. So, you I know that I've got to do it more. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I probably work too
01:44:21
much, you know, at times there. You know, my I will definitely have to step back every now and then and go reset a
01:44:27
little bit. I've just got myself a little bit too busy again, but overcommitted. Um yeah,
01:44:31
>> you got a little bit emotional before when we were talking about um that that
01:44:35
wonderful reframing from with your wife. Are you um Yeah. Have you become more emotional since going through what
01:44:43
you've experienced? >> Yeah, I'm always been quite emotional. I'm a sook. Yeah. Yeah. Jeep has put on
01:44:47
water ship down and I'll ball like a child. Um but yeah, I've always been
01:44:52
emotional. I live I I live quite empathetically, I hope, with other people. I get quite clued into what
01:44:57
other people are thinking and feeling and and that can make me quite emotional. The times I get very
01:45:01
emotional are typically when I see other people in pain or when I when I know they're in a really difficult situation.
01:45:07
You there's a few cancer patients that I deal with and I find it really tough cuz
01:45:12
I know how hard it is for them. >> Yeah. >> And they're probably not a good outcome
01:45:16
for them and that makes me really emotional. Um but but you turn that the doctor told me this actually cuz I asked
01:45:21
that sort of question to the doctor. said, "How do you deal with all this stuff when people are dying on you and
01:45:26
or when you meet someone you know they're not going to be able to um be successful?" He said, "You turn that
01:45:32
into something. You turn it into action or you turn it into uh a resolve to be better yourself." Like if you wallow in
01:45:40
a negative space, it'll it'll eat away and get at you and you'll find yourself
01:45:45
like really in a negative thing. But if you go, "Ah, this another person that I
01:45:49
met and was on a journey with has not made it and their family are suffering."
01:45:53
Okay, how can we speed up the process to make sure that doesn't happen again?
01:45:58
>> And so I kind of give use it as fuel. Um that's a reframing type technique as
01:46:03
well that that I try and use. But it's not easy to do. It's blooming hard. But
01:46:07
um but it's better than just sitting there going, "Oh my god, you know,
01:46:10
there's nothing that can be done." >> Yeah. Rich Rich McCoy's got a quote like
01:46:15
the human brain is wired to think of the worst case scenario. >> We're the people that survived.
01:46:20
>> That's right. Think think of like what what if everything goes wrong, but his
01:46:23
thing is like no what if everything goes wrong. >> Right. And it's more often than not, you
01:46:27
know, >> somewhere in the middle. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I often think what's
01:46:29
the best outcome from here? And it often happens like I would say 90% of the time
01:46:34
>> I start the day I literally do start the day. It's almost a little mantra of
01:46:38
what's the best thing that's going to happen today or what's the what are the
01:46:40
what are the positive things that can happen today? And then you get to the end of the day and you kind of reflect
01:46:44
back on it. This is sort of again this is um you know mental wellness type stuff. I don't I didn't consciously do
01:46:50
it because it was mental wellness but now I realize it is. What often happens at the end of the day you go actually
01:46:54
all of that stuff did happen. You know all of that positive things did happen. You know that meeting that I thought was
01:46:59
going to be different went better than I thought. That phone call was easier than
01:47:02
I thought it was going to be. That this this meeting Dom was great cuz now we we're mates and we're going to be able
01:47:06
to see each other and that's great. You know like all this sort of thing. But
01:47:10
that's a really good technique. That's like when I cuz I do a little bit of
01:47:14
teaching every now and then as part of my kind of keynote speaking. I'll I'll
01:47:18
give people these little techniques and and it feels really weird when you first
01:47:21
do it. It's like, you know, doing things with your left hand when you're normally
01:47:24
right-handed. So forcing yourself every day to create a little habit. >> Well, by after a while, not even that
01:47:30
long, a month or so, you will start to now go, it's just a normal behavior to
01:47:33
go actually by me going into a day going, what's the best thing that's going to happen? It actually created
01:47:39
that thing. >> Incredible. It's like manifestation in a way. >> It is. It is. It's not spooky woo woo
01:47:43
hopefully. But it's I think it just puts you in a position of optimism and >> uh seeing possibilities in a different
01:47:48
way. So instead of me being uh I I don't want to do that. It's going to be too
01:47:51
hard. It's like okay now let's walk towards that and what could what could
01:47:54
happen if it goes well >> and then and then you almost sort of steer it that way.
01:47:59
>> I love that. I think that that's so cool. Did you get that from like a book
01:48:02
or >> No, I made it up in my brain >> when I was really good. Well, I keep
01:48:07
thinking if I had more time, I would love to write a book on on on some of these mental techniques. A lot of it was
01:48:12
done when I was in hospital and I look back and retrospectively just, you know, worked out what I I had been doing,
01:48:18
dressing up my hospital room, all that kind of stuff. Um reframing, you know, I remember firmly remember sitting in, you
01:48:25
know, in my hospital room going, I feel terrible. It's terrible. My emotional
01:48:29
state's terrible. My physical state's terrible. What could I do that can make
01:48:33
me feel better? And it was like, "Make your bed >> or make the nurse laugh the next time
01:48:40
that they come in." Or Katherine would call me and go, "One of the kids has got
01:48:44
a problem with homework." Oh, okay. Help them with the homework. You know, like
01:48:48
it was just tiny things that would just make life a little bit better and feel like you've done something. And I think
01:48:53
if you can if you that micro habits become, you know, big impacts when you do them consistently over time. That's
01:48:59
the 1% rule. >> You know, people like Richie is a great example. You know, you don't have to be
01:49:04
100 times better. You just have to be 1% better >> and then and then build that habit.
01:49:10
>> You've run out of cards. >> It's only been an hour and 48 minutes.
01:49:14
>> This has been a great chat. Um, >> God knows how you're going to turn that
01:49:18
into something useful. >> Well, I I I um I don't need edit anything out unless the guest wants it
01:49:23
edited out. I think people will start listening and it's like a book. If it's
01:49:26
if it's good, they'll they'll keep listening. If they're not enjoying it,
01:49:29
they'll put it down. But I think um >> if you've made it this far, you've got
01:49:31
tenacity and resilience. Good on you, mom. >> The last question you might struggle to
01:49:38
um answer being um the son of Irish immigrants with a Catholic background. >> Are you proud of yourself?
01:49:44
>> Oh, pride is a sin. Um luckily I'm not religious anymore. I'm proud of my Yeah,
01:49:50
I'm proud of the things that I could I'm but the of myself bit's interesting
01:49:55
because of myself is you know assumes this reality of thing that you did at B yourself. I'm I I'm lucky and proud that
01:50:01
I've pulled together people that help me to do stuff and I and I'm very rarely
01:50:05
the only person doing something. Um but I'm proud of what we are achieving collectively. The Malagan Institute's
01:50:10
amazing. I'm proud to be part of it. Um yeah so I think the answer is yes with
01:50:15
that little proviso. >> Yes with the condition. in the condition that hopefully doesn't get me sent to
01:50:20
hell. >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you What do you think happens when you die? >> Uh well, it's going to be terrible. I'm
01:50:25
not religious in the slightest. I think nothing happens when you die. I think you your
01:50:29
>> your energy is lost and um hopefully you've left a mark on the universe in
01:50:33
another way, but I'm not. >> You live live on in the people whose lives you made impact on.
01:50:37
>> Are you um are you atheist, agnostic? >> I'm I'm atheist now.
01:50:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Much as my my father would probably never listen to this. My
01:50:44
father's very religious. Um I'm not at all. we agree to disagree. >> Um I I think you can be I think the
01:50:51
conflation between morality and religion is just so dangerous. You know, I I find
01:50:56
I think I'm a very moral person, a very ethical person, but not at all religious. And I see religion sometimes
01:51:01
as being very anti-morality and anti-ethics. And so >> I I don't I don't bring the two things
01:51:07
together. >> I'm I'm the same Catholic a Catholic upbringing. And when I was old enough to
01:51:11
make my own decisions, I realized you could be um a bad person and go to church or a good person and not go to
01:51:15
church or somewhere in between. >> The best but the best but the best the best lessons I ever learned were at
01:51:20
school and they were in the religious studies class at school. And I remember again this priest, Father Tyat telling
01:51:26
us this thing which I hold dear to today. He said, "You've got two jobs in
01:51:29
life. One is to define your moral uh boundaries uh and create your morality and the
01:51:35
second job is to live by it." M and he said if you do those two things you'll
01:51:39
be a good person. You don't need that thrust on you by some external force. You need to create your moral boundaries
01:51:46
and then you know when you're stepping outside of them >> and uh and I've I just I remember that
01:51:51
was probably 15 at the time he taught me that. It's still something I think about
01:51:53
a lot >> like be be the the CEO of your own mind and body. >> Yeah. Be the best person you can be.
01:51:59
Yeah. >> I love it. Hey David Downs, this has been a great chat. Thank you.
01:52:02
>> Thanks so much mate. I'm so glad you survived and otherwise it would have
01:52:05
been a very boring hour and a half, wouldn't it? Um, but I'm so like proud of everything
01:52:12
everything you're doing for people today and tomorrow that may go through the
01:52:15
same experience you did. It's really cool. Thank you very much. You're a
01:52:18
great New Zealander. >> Awesome. >> Can't believe you're only semi-finalist
01:52:21
for New Zealand. >> Damn, there's still time. Squeeze me in next time, judges.
01:52:29
Heat. Hey, Heat.