00:00:00
A guy was a crane firing at people on
00:00:02
the street. That's gunfire. That's
00:00:03
gunfire. He actually shot people. You
00:00:05
don't know you've got them until you're
00:00:07
I was in surgery within days. Who is
00:00:09
Phil Smith?
00:00:09
>> I'm a bit of a dreamer. Smith, if you
00:00:11
think you can write, you're dreaming.
00:00:13
You cannot write. It really scarred me
00:00:15
for a long time. My dad leaning in the
00:00:17
kitchen reading the Herald and going,
00:00:19
"You wrote that?"
00:00:20
>> Did you ever feel like your life was in
00:00:21
danger over there?
00:00:22
>> We just got ourselves right in the
00:00:23
center of a firefight. That 50 m run, I
00:00:26
probably did it faster than a sprinter
00:00:28
by shaking so much. ANC had their main
00:00:30
training camps in Tanzania. They could
00:00:32
get rid of you in a nanocond. They'd
00:00:34
hose you down once a day to start to
00:00:36
rot. My father had sadly died. My mom
00:00:38
died last year. I was lucky.
00:00:42
>> Oh god, you're here. Come on. This is
00:00:44
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:46
there's a top performance in New
00:00:47
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:49
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:51
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:53
holl in more.
00:00:57
He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:00:59
performance going?
00:01:00
>> Top tier.
00:01:00
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:02
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:04
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:06
investments. Get in here Finn.
00:01:08
>> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:10
>> Putting performance first.
00:01:12
>> Phil Smith. Welcome to my podcast.
00:01:14
>> Brilliant. Great to be here. Very
00:01:16
special day, isn't it?
00:01:17
>> Oh, my birthday.
00:01:18
>> Yeah, it's your birthday. February the
00:01:20
3rd. What a day. What does it feel like
00:01:22
to be um almost 50?
00:01:24
>> I'm 53. Oh, that was a that was a that
00:01:27
was a sweet intro. That was a sweet
00:01:29
joke. I feel I feel good. How old are
00:01:31
you? What are you
00:01:32
>> I'm 61.
00:01:32
>> Right. How do you feel? You you feel
00:01:34
exactly the same?
00:01:35
>> Really good. Really? After the triple
00:01:37
heart bypass. Um Yeah. Great.
00:01:39
>> Actually.
00:01:40
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:41
>> When?
00:01:42
>> Uh 7 years ago. Yeah. I just um didn't
00:01:45
feel great and had a test and I had a
00:01:47
thing called widow makers which is you
00:01:50
don't know you've got them until you're
00:01:52
dead. And uh I was in surgery within
00:01:54
days. triple heart bypass and I was back
00:01:56
at work uh within two weeks and now I
00:01:59
can walk up hills and I pump oxygen
00:02:01
through my heart. So basically I've had
00:02:03
the spouting done and feel great.
00:02:05
>> Do you need annual checkups or anything
00:02:07
now or
00:02:07
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You you do you do but
00:02:10
you know effectively your heart's now
00:02:12
getting heaps of oxygen, heaps of blood
00:02:14
and so you know it gives you another 20
00:02:16
years of life. So I was I was really
00:02:18
fortunate that you know I think a lot of
00:02:20
people both male and female testing you
00:02:23
know testing testing. I've seen evidence
00:02:25
of people not tested and then they get
00:02:26
bad news and the thing is is yeah it's
00:02:29
all available to us now. So I was really
00:02:31
lucky.
00:02:33
>> Are you are you quite good with your
00:02:34
health now? Like you watch what you eat,
00:02:36
watch what you drink.
00:02:37
>> Yeah, I sort of got into keto um a long
00:02:40
time ago and that that proved to me that
00:02:42
you know I could knock about 7 kilos
00:02:43
off. And so instead of rocking at you
00:02:45
know 88 kilos, I'm sort of 82. Um watch
00:02:49
my diet, don't drink too much. um
00:02:52
exercise, you know, 10,000 steps a day,
00:02:54
something like that, when when I can do
00:02:56
it, uh keeps me really fit and healthy.
00:02:59
>> What an interesting start to the
00:03:01
podcast. I I I never knew I never knew
00:03:03
that about you and but and then I've
00:03:04
I've done all this research and there's
00:03:06
so much stuff that I never I never knew
00:03:08
about you because you you and I um uh
00:03:11
met through a mutual friend, Matt Heath,
00:03:13
who does the afternoon show on ZB. Um
00:03:15
you came around to my house for New
00:03:17
Year, I think a few years ago. We caught
00:03:19
each other caught up with each other on
00:03:20
the the New Year's Eve just gone and I I
00:03:22
just thought, "Oh, Phil's a nice guy.
00:03:24
Does some TV stuff, but I didn't really
00:03:25
know much about you." But holy [ __ ]
00:03:27
you're a legend.
00:03:28
>> Well, yes. And I must say about that
00:03:31
that visit to your your home. I do still
00:03:34
have your airline pajamas that you gave
00:03:35
me at the end after I got out of the spa
00:03:38
uh where we celebrated New Year. It was
00:03:40
a wonderful night. And Matt obviously is
00:03:42
a dear friend of yours and mine. So,
00:03:44
yeah, he brings people together. Well,
00:03:46
by the way, I need to I don't know if
00:03:47
I'm talking out of term here, but I need
00:03:49
to tell you something about Matt Heath.
00:03:50
Um, so he ran his first marathon last
00:03:52
year. He did the Queenstown Marathon. I
00:03:54
was um I was ing anding about coming
00:03:56
down and sort of, you know, running with
00:03:58
him like a sherper.
00:03:59
>> And uh I said, "I think I've left it too
00:04:01
late. I've got nowhere to stay." And he
00:04:02
he he told me I was welcome to stay at
00:04:04
your house.
00:04:05
>> Yeah.
00:04:05
>> So, I'm just I'm just letting you know
00:04:07
that he's um Yeah.
00:04:08
>> He's basically got a got a key to your
00:04:10
house.
00:04:10
>> He virtually has. Yeah. Well, we don't I
00:04:12
shouldn't say this. We don't really have
00:04:13
keys, but um you know, we're we're 25
00:04:16
years down there and Le and I pretty
00:04:19
much would know how to lock the house,
00:04:20
and that's the truth. Uh and our house
00:04:23
is halfway through the marathon, so if
00:04:24
Matt wanted to drop out or you wanted to
00:04:26
drop out, you can just swing into our
00:04:28
place and jump in the spa. Oh,
00:04:30
>> which is what he did at the end of the
00:04:31
marathon. So, yeah.
00:04:33
>> So, okay. Who is Phil Smith?
00:04:35
>> Me?
00:04:36
>> Yeah. Um, oh, I guess, uh,
00:04:38
>> apart from bass player of the the
00:04:40
nation's dreaming, nation's dreaming,
00:04:42
>> a band that made $55 all up, I believe.
00:04:44
>> Yeah. Yeah, we did. Um, yeah, we had a
00:04:46
we had a short but spectacular career.
00:04:49
So, um, I can talk about that later.
00:04:51
But, uh, who am I? Uh, I guess I'm
00:04:54
someone who loves, uh, creativity and
00:04:56
ideas. I guess I'm a bit of a dreamer.
00:04:58
I'm always sort of drifting off a bit.
00:05:00
And you know the question where's Phil
00:05:02
is famous within the company because I
00:05:04
just tend to go to the next thing that
00:05:06
I'm thinking about and in my head I'm
00:05:08
often thinking of things and
00:05:10
opportunities and ideas and so I love
00:05:13
the fact that I can take that and
00:05:15
convert that into employment and
00:05:18
something physical for New Zealanders
00:05:20
and you know it opens up so many
00:05:22
exciting things. So work-wise, that's
00:05:25
what I am. And then, you know, I'm a dad
00:05:26
and I've got my beautiful son, beautiful
00:05:29
wife, and we've got a really great
00:05:30
little family, and we have a lot of fun.
00:05:32
So, you know, those are my my two big
00:05:34
things in life.
00:05:36
>> That's a great answer. Um yeah, it's
00:05:38
it's always interesting when you ask
00:05:39
someone who who they are and how they
00:05:40
answer because um the the internet
00:05:42
answer is um sort of like career
00:05:44
highlights, I guess, which includes 30
00:05:45
film and TV awards and 60 odd TV shows
00:05:49
that you're responsible of making. with
00:05:51
with those um 30 odd film and TV awards,
00:05:53
is there one that means the most?
00:05:55
>> Um yeah, and definitely uh drama writer
00:06:00
of the year uh for me was kind of
00:06:02
affirmation like when I was in the sixth
00:06:04
form, I wrote something and my teacher
00:06:07
um he he basically read it out to the
00:06:09
class and said, "Smith, if you think you
00:06:11
can write, you're dreaming. You cannot
00:06:13
write." And like it really scarred me
00:06:15
for a long time and I thought, "Wow,
00:06:17
okay, I can't write." And so I sort of
00:06:20
took that into journalism and I I
00:06:23
learned through some really great
00:06:24
friends to Murphy and Paul Hlet at the
00:06:26
Herald. We're all little cadetses. They
00:06:28
sort of taught me how to write. And um
00:06:31
from there on in I've kind of been able
00:06:33
to tell myself, "Yes, I can ride." And
00:06:35
then getting that award kind of I went,
00:06:37
"Wow, yeah, yeah, I can definitely
00:06:39
write." And so, you know, it was it it
00:06:42
only took 40 years for me to get over uh
00:06:44
John Kelllet and you know, at Westlake
00:06:46
Boys, but um but yeah, that was that's
00:06:50
the thing.
00:06:50
>> So, you you wanted to be at Westlake
00:06:52
Boys, you wanted to be a writer, you'd
00:06:53
indicated your interest in being a
00:06:55
writer when that's
00:06:56
>> that is so damaging. Like, did you did
00:06:58
you use it as um you did it sort of like
00:07:00
um crush you temporarily at least or did
00:07:02
you sort of use it as fuel?
00:07:04
>> Um I still was had a passion for like
00:07:08
the world, you know, as a kid. I was
00:07:09
always like fascinated by Africa. I was
00:07:12
fascinated by sport and the All Blacks
00:07:14
and I kept scrapbooks and I followed the
00:07:16
news and I was into the media. And so it
00:07:18
was at Westlake where following year
00:07:20
teacher just put me in touch with a guy
00:07:22
called Richard Beck who now sort of runs
00:07:24
the Warriors media and he got me onto a
00:07:26
journalism course. And so I got a lot of
00:07:28
opportunity out of that school in the
00:07:30
end. They got me onto a journalism
00:07:32
course. And then, you know, we were
00:07:34
incredibly young. Like, I I think I was
00:07:36
um 17 when I went to ATI journalism
00:07:39
school. And then by 18, I was on the
00:07:42
Herald. And um I still remember writing
00:07:45
my first front page lead, which was it
00:07:47
was about a David Bowie concert and
00:07:48
everyone breaking in at Western Springs,
00:07:50
getting through a fence, you know, of
00:07:52
course that was a riot in those days.
00:07:54
And I remember my dad like leaning in
00:07:56
the kitchen reading the Herald and
00:07:58
going, "You wrote that?" and it like
00:08:01
destroyed all of his faith in
00:08:02
journalism. He's like looking at me
00:08:04
going, "How could they publish that?"
00:08:06
Like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't uh
00:08:09
he was super proud, but at the same
00:08:11
time, he was gobsmacked that someone so
00:08:13
young who had just gone through puberty
00:08:15
is now published on the front page of
00:08:17
the Herald. So, yeah, it was a young we
00:08:20
were young. Yeah.
00:08:22
>> What percentage of you do you think is
00:08:24
um now like a a TV guy or a media guy
00:08:27
and what percentage of you is
00:08:28
entrepreneur? Oh, that's a wow, it's a
00:08:31
really good question. But I think um
00:08:34
having the skill of left and right brain
00:08:35
is is quite uh that's what has got me to
00:08:39
where I'm at. And I can see some of my
00:08:41
contemporaries, the likes of like a
00:08:42
Julie Christie, I think we both have
00:08:45
left and right brain. So we're thinking
00:08:47
business, business and ideas, concepts.
00:08:50
And so a lot of people, you know, will
00:08:51
be leftrain or rightrain, but when you
00:08:53
can balance the two and you know,
00:08:55
through my family, like my dad was an
00:08:57
entrepreneur, he had his own company.
00:08:58
Um, I sort of learned about business and
00:09:01
it was sort of in my DNA. A lot of my
00:09:02
friends had their own businesses. So,
00:09:05
you know, I'm sort of 50%, you know,
00:09:07
half the time thinking about the
00:09:09
business, but then I've got the ability
00:09:10
to be able to just click over and then
00:09:13
use creativity. But by being creative
00:09:15
and also being business, you can create
00:09:18
for the business and that gives you an
00:09:20
advantage. So when I'm writing and all
00:09:22
of that, I know we can't shoot that
00:09:25
scene or I know that this is what the
00:09:27
client wants or I know these networks
00:09:30
internationally want this kind of idea.
00:09:32
So as a writer, I can use the creative
00:09:34
side to achieve the business goals.
00:09:38
>> [ __ ] this is going to be such a great
00:09:39
chat. There's um Oh, there is uh Yeah,
00:09:42
there's so much so much to get into.
00:09:44
>> It's such an honor to have you here
00:09:46
today and get get to know you on a
00:09:47
different level to to um just sharing a
00:09:49
sparkle with you.
00:09:50
>> Yeah.
00:09:51
>> So, born and raised in Southland before
00:09:54
moving to Aland. Um I've heard you
00:09:56
describe Southlanders as the border
00:09:57
collies of the world, meaning the uh
00:09:59
sort of friendly, curious, um and always
00:10:02
wanting to help. What What sort of a dog
00:10:04
breed would you be now?
00:10:06
>> Um yeah. Okay. Uh, you know, I'd
00:10:10
probably want to be what was what was
00:10:12
that red dog? Uh, you know, the one in
00:10:14
Australia in the movie, but um, probably
00:10:18
more I think I've learned to be sort of
00:10:21
less compliant and less worried about
00:10:24
what other people think. So, I think a
00:10:25
border collie is very, you know, very
00:10:27
much a people pleaser. And at some
00:10:29
point, you have to learn that people
00:10:31
pleasing is a great endeavor. And I I
00:10:33
probably have been that for most of my
00:10:35
career, but sometimes I've learned the
00:10:37
hard way that that's not the way to the
00:10:39
top. That sometimes there has to be a
00:10:41
bit of collateral damage. So you do have
00:10:43
to have a bit of mongrel in you. So I'm
00:10:45
going to be choosing a dog with I'm not
00:10:46
a Rottweiler, but something with a
00:10:48
little bit a little bit more spark than
00:10:50
than that that people might back off
00:10:52
from occasionally and realize that there
00:10:54
is a sting in the tail. like, you know,
00:10:57
it's not about retribution, but it's
00:10:59
just um basically if people think you're
00:11:01
weak and they sense weakness, then
00:11:03
you're possibly not going to succeed.
00:11:05
And so, you do have to have a tough
00:11:07
spine. And um the border collie, whilst
00:11:11
it's a lovely dog, it's it's the gravy
00:11:14
really. It's the it's it's really
00:11:16
beautiful, but you do need that you do
00:11:17
need that spine.
00:11:19
>> Maybe a German Shepherd then. It's a
00:11:21
nice dog, very compliant, but you don't
00:11:23
[ __ ] with one.
00:11:24
>> Yeah. Yeah. you want to be like that.
00:11:26
Yeah.
00:11:26
>> It's that's disappointing to hear that.
00:11:28
Um cuz I I I think you like from my
00:11:30
dealings with you and these aren't
00:11:32
business related dealings. They're just
00:11:33
social dealings like you are just a
00:11:34
really nice guy. Um it's a shame that
00:11:36
you need to um develop that sort of
00:11:39
streak, I guess, to succeed in business.
00:11:41
>> Well, you do because you're really in
00:11:43
business for your family. Like that's
00:11:45
why I do it. I do it so that I have a
00:11:47
nice family life and I do it because I
00:11:49
find it really fun. So you do have to be
00:11:52
on the game and very aware otherwise
00:11:55
people you know will ride over you. It's
00:11:56
a tough commercial industry now um our
00:12:00
industry in particular. So you know that
00:12:02
the the week will be flushed out and so
00:12:05
you have to be very sharp especially in
00:12:07
this day and age.
00:12:10
>> So you mentioned before um your first
00:12:12
journalism job um and the Bowie piece on
00:12:14
the front cover of the New Zealand
00:12:15
Herald. Um, yeah. What did journalism
00:12:18
give you, if anything, that you still
00:12:20
use in life now?
00:12:22
>> Uh, well, it taught me uh that I'm
00:12:25
lucky, you know, like I I I just can't
00:12:28
believe how lucky New Zealanders are.
00:12:30
And, you know, you see the world and you
00:12:32
talk to people and you're you're
00:12:34
inquisitive. And I've never been so
00:12:36
happy to get on a plane and fly back to
00:12:37
New Zealand at the end of last year from
00:12:39
the UK, um, having spent like a month
00:12:41
there and and working. And I was like,
00:12:44
man, you know, we think, you know, you
00:12:46
get back home and sometimes, you know,
00:12:48
the Herald, we know their algorithms are
00:12:49
pumping out, you know, boy dies, man
00:12:51
dies, shooting, death, stabbing, and all
00:12:53
this. Man, you know, cost of living is a
00:12:56
big thing, but the cost of living is the
00:12:58
same everywhere. And one thing I've
00:13:00
realized is just how blessed we are to
00:13:02
actually be a little bit removed from
00:13:04
the world. You know, there's thousands
00:13:06
of Americans trying to get visas to come
00:13:08
to this country now. And so, it's made
00:13:10
me kind of look at the world. journalism
00:13:12
taught me to look and talk and what it's
00:13:14
done is made me appreciate like where I
00:13:16
am and what we've got as a nation.
00:13:19
>> I I think that relent relentless
00:13:21
optimism that's something that all
00:13:22
entrepreneurs have in common. I've been
00:13:24
lucky enough to have um like three of
00:13:25
New Zealand's um like big dogs on the
00:13:27
podcast like yeah Rod from Zero Sir
00:13:31
Peter Be from Rocket Lab and from Zuru
00:13:33
and Zealand now you and there's there I
00:13:36
mean you're different different levels
00:13:37
to the game. you're not in the private
00:13:39
jet level, but you've done all right for
00:13:41
yourself. But but one thing I've noticed
00:13:42
all entrepreneurs, regardless of the
00:13:44
size of them, have in common, it's just
00:13:45
this um this this this I don't know,
00:13:47
this optimism and this glass half full
00:13:49
attitude.
00:13:50
>> Absolutely. Like you just have to
00:13:52
believe that you're going to convert
00:13:53
something, which is a crazy observation
00:13:55
and convert it into an idea that could
00:13:57
be worth 10 or 15 million. And so you
00:14:00
have to have complete optimism because
00:14:01
you have to convince other people to
00:14:03
risk their careers to give you money and
00:14:06
trust you. So yeah, you have to be
00:14:08
constantly optimistic and and and that's
00:14:10
what I do. So you know, I take small
00:14:12
ideas and then just uh convince people
00:14:15
that you know this is going to be
00:14:16
brilliant. But it's based on my my gut
00:14:19
belief, you know, what my gut believes.
00:14:21
But the thing is is that you know the
00:14:23
people that you've you've listed
00:14:25
effectively have a missing chip and and
00:14:27
and that is like you would be worried to
00:14:30
death if you went to bed every night and
00:14:32
went through everything that can
00:14:34
potentially go wrong and how many mouths
00:14:37
you're feeding and how many people
00:14:38
you've got within your company and what
00:14:40
if this goes wrong. You just worry
00:14:42
yourself to death. And so most people
00:14:44
choose not to do that. You know,
00:14:45
probably 90 95% of people go, I'm happy
00:14:48
to just go to work, do a job, go home,
00:14:51
get paid, have a brilliant life, and I'm
00:14:52
fully support that. I wish I'd done that
00:14:55
sometimes. I don't actually. I don't. I
00:14:57
don't. I've been very lucky to be free,
00:15:00
you know, cuz you know, it's freedom.
00:15:02
And that's one of the great things in
00:15:03
life that you need. But they it's a
00:15:05
missing chip where you just,
00:15:08
>> you know, there's risk, but you still
00:15:09
push forward because you have an inner
00:15:11
belief. You absolutely believe you're
00:15:13
going to succeed.
00:15:15
Yeah. Why didn't you just stick with
00:15:16
journalism?
00:15:18
>> Uh, well, I kind of merged out of it
00:15:21
because I went from print journalism in
00:15:24
Africa and then I saw a lot of
00:15:25
television journalists working there and
00:15:27
met them and I sort of became their
00:15:29
runner basically. I was so young and
00:15:31
they were so old and I and I was seeing
00:15:34
so much in Africa visually that and
00:15:37
trying to write about it. And then when
00:15:38
I saw TV people come and film it, I
00:15:40
thought that's the way to go. I love
00:15:42
that. And so I kind of said to them, I
00:15:44
want to get into television. And they
00:15:45
said, what you should do is go back to
00:15:47
New Zealand. You're lucky. Take your
00:15:49
journalism back, get into television
00:15:51
journalism, and then see how it goes.
00:15:53
And I did that. And I became a TV
00:15:55
journalist and TV producer. And then the
00:15:57
entrepreneur kicked in, which is my dad
00:16:00
like, you know, always, you know, work
00:16:01
for yourself, work for your own
00:16:03
business. And, you know, I, you know,
00:16:05
again, I saw Julie Christie running her
00:16:07
company, Touchdown. Looked at that and
00:16:08
thought I could do that. And so I just
00:16:11
converted the business side and the
00:16:13
journalism side together. And we're
00:16:15
still journalists like we still produce
00:16:17
um you know 30 40 episodes of the Hoie
00:16:20
every year which is current affairs
00:16:22
which I executive produce. So we've got
00:16:24
a lot of journalism coming out of the
00:16:26
company and journalism feeds into
00:16:28
everything that I do. So, back to your
00:16:30
earlier question, like when you're
00:16:32
writing drama, um, because when I was a
00:16:34
young journalist, I started out by going
00:16:36
to the port and seeing doing the
00:16:38
shipping news, then you do the council
00:16:40
news, then you do the police news, and
00:16:42
you start to see how every system works.
00:16:44
So by the time you're 20, you kind of
00:16:46
know how the system works, how society
00:16:49
works, and you've met people who are
00:16:51
underdogs, you met wealthy. And so now
00:16:53
when I go to write drama, I've got this
00:16:55
absolute bank of knowledge. Like I know
00:16:58
how the shipping works in the world. I
00:17:00
know how a council works and and and how
00:17:03
they fight and bicker and all of this
00:17:04
and how the police work and and what
00:17:06
detectives are like. And so for me that
00:17:08
journalism has given me this huge bank
00:17:11
of information of how all of these
00:17:13
systems work within society. So it's
00:17:16
been useful.
00:17:17
>> Yeah. So you you were sharpening the ax.
00:17:19
You didn't know what you were sharpening
00:17:20
the ax for, but here we are. You
00:17:22
mentioned Africa just before. Yeah. By
00:17:24
by the age of 21, which is painfully
00:17:26
young. Uh you were the only Western
00:17:28
journalist in Tunisia.
00:17:29
>> Tanzania.
00:17:30
>> Tanzania. Yeah. Any any PTSD or the
00:17:33
things that you saw that still haunt you
00:17:35
to this day?
00:17:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, definitely you know
00:17:38
like um I think I think in our days when
00:17:43
we were doing war and war correspondence
00:17:45
pretty much the solution at the end was
00:17:47
to go back to London or go back to base
00:17:49
and then go out and drink some booulet
00:17:51
with the guys there and tell a few
00:17:53
stories then go home and so nowadays you
00:17:56
know you're going into you know
00:17:58
psychologists and counseling and talking
00:18:00
about what you've seen and seeing a lot
00:18:02
of death and destruction and all of
00:18:04
that. And so I I did see that um pretty
00:18:07
rampantly when I when I visited Bundi uh
00:18:10
and that was unintentional, but by going
00:18:13
there and seeing just how brutal the
00:18:15
world was um was really shocking. But
00:18:18
you know, I didn't do anything about it.
00:18:20
I just decided to live with it. And
00:18:22
everything else like you know, Romania
00:18:24
and other places like seeing people die
00:18:27
a lot a lot, you know, I just we just
00:18:30
had to live with it basically. So, I've
00:18:33
just kind of kind of put it away in a
00:18:35
corner.
00:18:36
>> Comes out. It comes out after a few
00:18:37
drinks at dinner parties sometimes. And
00:18:39
I think Leanne, my my wife, would prefer
00:18:41
me not to. She's, "Oh god, Phil's going
00:18:43
to start telling more stories now."
00:18:47
>> Your partners had them for she's like
00:18:49
booking an Uber at that point. Yeah. And
00:18:51
everyone else is like, you know, it it
00:18:53
is difficult sometimes.
00:18:56
>> Uh, what's the most frightening you've
00:18:57
ever been? Like, did you ever feel like
00:18:58
your life was in danger over there?
00:19:00
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I've I've
00:19:02
had multiple times. Uh Romania um we
00:19:06
just got ourselves right in the center
00:19:07
of a firefight. Um and uh my son still
00:19:11
watches the footage of it where we're
00:19:13
driving into a town Timwara and you know
00:19:16
it's absolutely rampant. You know,
00:19:17
security ters still firing at at the
00:19:19
public and a guy was up a crane firing
00:19:22
at um people on the street and we were
00:19:24
driving and the cameraman said, "Oh,
00:19:25
that's um there's a train going past or
00:19:28
something like can you hear that?" And
00:19:30
then it was like then someone said, "No,
00:19:32
[ __ ] That's that's gunfire. That's
00:19:34
gunfire." And like we stopped the car
00:19:36
and we looked up and there's a guy
00:19:37
basically in a crane just firing
00:19:41
firing at everyone around him from a
00:19:43
crane. Completely crazy. So we got out
00:19:46
of the car and all I thought like I
00:19:48
could see him turning and sort of
00:19:49
looking to us to fire and I just got my
00:19:52
head behind the wheel hub. You know, it
00:19:54
was only two wheel hubs you could hide
00:19:56
behind. And we all naturally put our
00:19:58
heads there because we'd seen what full
00:20:00
metal jacket bullets do through they
00:20:02
straight through cars, you know, so cars
00:20:04
no protection. And then we had to run
00:20:07
from the car to a bus. And that that 50
00:20:11
m run, I probably did it faster than a
00:20:14
sprinter, but each one of us, we just
00:20:16
watched and looked at the guy and he was
00:20:18
sort of firing around and looking. And
00:20:19
then you just had to time. And as he
00:20:21
turned, I was like, I just sprinted and
00:20:23
sort of looked at him and he sort of was
00:20:25
like, "Oh shit." And you know, by the
00:20:26
time he turned around and sort of took
00:20:28
aim, I just sprinted my 50 m behind this
00:20:31
bus where all these people were. And I
00:20:33
always remember they had they had a milk
00:20:35
bottle full of coffee and like this guy
00:20:37
said, "Here, have some of this." And I
00:20:38
took it and I shaking so much I dropped
00:20:42
the milk bottle and became really
00:20:43
unpopular behind the bus because I was
00:20:46
the guy that had broken the the milk
00:20:47
bottle full of coffee. And um but like
00:20:50
to finish that story, this guy was just
00:20:52
gladly, you know, he hit people. We saw
00:20:53
him hit people. He actually shot people.
00:20:56
a tank pulled up and this guy sort of
00:20:58
popped his head out and then a couple of
00:21:00
soldiers ran around and um one of them
00:21:03
just climbed up the crane quietly and
00:21:05
we've still got footage of it and he got
00:21:07
to the top and he just got his machine
00:21:09
gun and then he just popped the lid and
00:21:11
just went and just fired into the thing
00:21:14
and this guy is standing there like
00:21:16
happy and next minute he just got lead
00:21:18
right up him and then everyone just that
00:21:21
was it. The guy got down, had a smoke,
00:21:23
got back in the tank, the tank just
00:21:25
drove off. It was just you just witness
00:21:27
these things like
00:21:29
>> you're looking looking back looking back
00:21:30
now from the perspective of a of you
00:21:32
know 60-year-old man like do you think
00:21:35
you truly understood the risks you were
00:21:36
taking at that time?
00:21:37
>> No. No. I no I there's a lot of things I
00:21:40
didn't realize like even in in Tanzania.
00:21:43
Um I um thought that you know hey I'm a
00:21:46
journalist and I'm the only western
00:21:48
journalist in Tanzania and Tanzania is
00:21:50
safe. But I didn't realize it's a
00:21:52
socialist country uh supported by North
00:21:54
Korea, supported by China, Russia, and
00:21:57
um I naively turned up and they very
00:22:00
quickly thought I was actually a South
00:22:03
African. They thought he's just a South
00:22:05
African. What we didn't know is that ANC
00:22:07
had their main training camps in
00:22:09
Tanzania. And I actually eventually got
00:22:11
to them and went to the ANC conference
00:22:13
and met amazing people. But um you know
00:22:16
within about 2 months I was I was being
00:22:19
followed. But the guy, it was such a
00:22:21
poor country, he would wait outside and
00:22:24
I'd basically uh let him in my car and
00:22:26
he'd just drive around with me for the
00:22:28
day watching what I did. And so his job
00:22:30
was just to follow me around. And I look
00:22:32
back now and think, yeah, you know, if
00:22:34
they wanted to get they could off you,
00:22:36
they could get rid of you in in a nano
00:22:38
second. But I was kind of lucky the
00:22:40
Financial Times said Tanzania first.
00:22:42
They said, "We'll give you a soft little
00:22:44
safe country before we send you to
00:22:46
Nicaragua," which was the next one, or
00:22:48
or Ghana or Nigeria. That was that was
00:22:50
the plan. And uh so I was kind of lucky
00:22:53
even though I got arrested and you know,
00:22:54
time in jail there and expelled from
00:22:57
Tanzania. Um it was uh it was a soft
00:23:00
kind little country cuz I got out of
00:23:02
life and I look back now and go, I was
00:23:04
lucky.
00:23:06
>> Yeah. Let's talk about the the expulsion
00:23:07
and the the incarceration. How long were
00:23:09
you incarcerated for?
00:23:10
>> A week. Oh, a week.
00:23:12
>> Yeah.
00:23:12
>> Oh, I sort of imagined like half a day
00:23:14
or a few hours while they a week.
00:23:16
>> Yeah.
00:23:16
>> How was that terrifying?
00:23:17
>> Uh, yeah. No, it was um a lot of
00:23:19
negotiation um from who?
00:23:22
>> Uh well, fortunately the British High
00:23:24
Commission kind of adopted me is one of
00:23:28
their own like because I was Financial
00:23:30
Times and because I knew the British
00:23:31
High Commission really well um they came
00:23:34
in to bat for me because there's no New
00:23:36
Zealand high commission there. It was
00:23:38
the British Embassy. But it was just a
00:23:41
misunderstanding.
00:23:42
Of course,
00:23:44
it's always a misunderstanding. But um
00:23:47
I, you know, I just thought I was I I
00:23:50
was operating uh in incorrectly in a
00:23:53
country when you're based and resident
00:23:54
there. Like I I had reported a couple of
00:23:56
things that you kind of have to leave to
00:23:59
journalists that are visiting and I
00:24:00
actually I actually reported them and so
00:24:02
they got on to me and decided I had to I
00:24:04
had to leave the country. But in terms
00:24:07
of that process of expelling me, they
00:24:08
they bang me up in Arouchia, which is
00:24:10
right beside Mount Kilimanjaro. So, um,
00:24:14
I got picked up, uh, I was doing a story
00:24:16
on Prince Charles. They picked me up
00:24:18
slow. It was a slow arrest. I didn't
00:24:19
realize what was happening. Back to the
00:24:21
back to the police station into a cell
00:24:24
and then now we're going to, you know,
00:24:25
we're going to work through this
00:24:26
process. So, they were pretty nice to me
00:24:28
and in the end they but then they just
00:24:30
dumped me on the border and and left me
00:24:32
there. Um, and uh, you know, it was very
00:24:35
difficult. Kenya didn't want to take me
00:24:36
in. So I spend a day on the border
00:24:38
trying to get into Kenya. But I was a
00:24:39
PI, a prohibited immigrant from
00:24:41
Tanzania. And they made me sit and wait
00:24:44
the whole day. And at the end of the
00:24:45
day, I was thinking I'm going to be left
00:24:46
in this gap of, you know, 100 meters.
00:24:50
And this guy said, "Okay, we'll let you
00:24:52
um we'll let you come into Kenya for 24
00:24:54
hours." And then I went back to London
00:24:56
and they just laughed and said, "Oh,
00:24:57
we've all been chucked out of, you know,
00:24:59
one guy been pied about 30 times." Like
00:25:01
it was not it was nothing.
00:25:02
>> But they in your employers the
00:25:04
>> Yeah. Yeah. They're just like, "Oh yeah,
00:25:06
you got chucked out, so uh like move
00:25:08
on." It wasn't interesting. It barely
00:25:10
wasn't interesting to these guys.
00:25:13
>> There wasn't a lot of duty care in the
00:25:14
mid '80s, was there?
00:25:15
>> No. No. No. I mean, no, there wasn't.
00:25:18
But it was it was terrifying cuz Kenya,
00:25:20
they they don't like journalists, you
00:25:22
know, they the the local Reuters
00:25:24
journalists have been tortured when I
00:25:26
was there. And um I met him and I worked
00:25:29
with him and they had a they had a
00:25:32
process in um in Kenya called the
00:25:34
swimming pool at the police station
00:25:36
which is they put you in a room like
00:25:37
this and they just put water in about a
00:25:40
foot of water and you just stand in it
00:25:42
and then your feet rot then you sit on
00:25:44
your bottom and your bottom rots and you
00:25:46
stand on your feet and they hose you
00:25:47
down once a day and they leave you in
00:25:49
there for like days and you just start
00:25:51
to rot. They just it was cruel. And I
00:25:53
met this guy. He spent he'd spent days
00:25:55
in the swimming pool. So you you got to
00:25:58
be careful in those countries. And yeah,
00:26:00
so and long answer to short question.
00:26:03
Yeah, I was lucky.
00:26:06
>> And have you got possessions over there?
00:26:08
I believe you left behind like a a bag
00:26:10
of wheat.
00:26:10
>> I was chucked out. Yeah. I mean like
00:26:12
bangi was it was just absolutely they
00:26:15
just wrapped it up into fish and chip
00:26:18
paper. It was probably 20 cents and you
00:26:20
just got got masses in those days. Look,
00:26:22
I was in my early 20s and smoked a bit
00:26:24
of dope. I wasn't crazy on it, but um
00:26:27
but we learned I could just you could
00:26:29
just buy anything virtually for free.
00:26:31
You had so much money and you could
00:26:33
exchange on the black market. Like I
00:26:35
just had stacks and stacks of money and
00:26:37
I carried it around every day and give
00:26:38
it to lepers and stuff like that in
00:26:40
Tanzania. Um, so yeah, there was I have
00:26:44
got uh everything I had there I left
00:26:46
there cuz from Arouchia I was out over
00:26:48
the border into Kenya. And so I still
00:26:50
get messages from this guy years later
00:26:52
saying, "Your crap's still on the corner
00:26:54
of the Reuters's office in Darus Salam."
00:26:57
And I'm like, "Shit, I hope they don't
00:26:58
open the top drawer because there's like
00:27:00
there's half an ounce of of weed in
00:27:03
there." But um
00:27:04
>> might want a disciplinary disciplinary
00:27:06
hearing with you.
00:27:07
>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But um yeah, it it
00:27:11
it'll be wonderful to go back, but I
00:27:13
think that you know, even Tanzania's
00:27:14
changed, you know, it's not as it's a
00:27:16
different country now. So
00:27:17
>> yeah, for sure.
00:27:18
>> Um yeah, so this this is pre- internet
00:27:21
and everything. So your poor parents
00:27:22
back back in New Zealand, they would
00:27:24
have been blissfully unaware of what was
00:27:25
going on in your life.
00:27:26
>> Yeah. No, there's a story in the Oakland
00:27:29
Star about, you know, journalist in
00:27:30
prison in Tanzania. My mom worked as
00:27:33
stock broker in a stock broking agency.
00:27:35
Um and uh she was really proud of me and
00:27:39
like she she always pushed us away like
00:27:42
get out there see the world don't worry
00:27:44
about me you know my father had sadly
00:27:46
died and so but he too was was quite a
00:27:48
risk taker so my mom uh she enjoyed the
00:27:52
stories you know of oh you know my son's
00:27:54
doing this and that you know like all
00:27:56
parents and so um but yeah she was
00:27:58
worried of course she was worried but uh
00:28:00
she didn't really know what had happened
00:28:01
in Tanzaner until I was out and back in
00:28:03
London so so That's when she found out
00:28:06
so she didn't have to worry.
00:28:08
>> Was was it around this period of your
00:28:09
life that you connected with Jane
00:28:11
Goodall?
00:28:12
>> Yeah, that was Yeah, just um you know I
00:28:15
basically I met the Brits you know you
00:28:17
go into a town I sort of had the Hunter
00:28:19
S Thompson approach which is you know
00:28:20
you get a cheap motel a typewriter and a
00:28:22
rental car and you can do anything and I
00:28:25
sort of followed that. So I was I was
00:28:27
obsessed with Hunter S. Thompson and
00:28:29
every everything about him was a
00:28:30
journalist. And so yeah, I um got into
00:28:34
Tanzania and the first thing I rang the
00:28:36
British High Commission and the embassy
00:28:37
and there's always a woman there called
00:28:39
Katherine there. I don't know why all
00:28:41
the women in Africa are called
00:28:42
Katherine, but she invited me out to the
00:28:44
yacht club and I went out to the yacht
00:28:46
club cuz there were very few um
00:28:49
Europeans in in Tanzania at the time.
00:28:51
And um it was a little refuge away from
00:28:55
you know the craziness of living there.
00:28:57
And a woman uh one day said, "Oh, you
00:28:58
should meet Jane Goodle. She's a great
00:29:00
friend of mine." And I I went and met
00:29:02
Jane. And uh Jane was absolutely lovely.
00:29:05
I just went to her house and drank tea.
00:29:07
And you know, she had a cunning plan.
00:29:09
You know, there was a little bit of
00:29:10
black hatter about it. She had a plan.
00:29:12
And um she wanted me to go up to GMI.
00:29:14
And so she facilitated that and just
00:29:17
said, "Just cruise up. I'm there for a
00:29:18
month. Come and stay with me. Um you
00:29:20
know, I've got a I've got a story for
00:29:22
you." which was um basically chimpanzees
00:29:25
being smuggled out of Bundi for AIDS
00:29:27
experiments which was true and it was
00:29:29
happening. So they were they were needed
00:29:31
for AIDS experiments and it was
00:29:34
devastating to Jane that they were kind
00:29:35
of trying to get chimpanzees from her
00:29:38
region which is GMI. And so she kind of
00:29:40
wanted to know what was going on but boy
00:29:43
you know that was a dangerous
00:29:44
assignment. You know I I went to GMI. I
00:29:46
hung out with Jane
00:29:47
>> for a couple of weeks to start with.
00:29:49
Then she's like all right on your bus
00:29:50
you know up to Bjan Bora which is pretty
00:29:53
much like catching a bus the you know
00:29:55
these little boats to pull in and then
00:29:57
just up to Bjan Bora. And then I
00:29:59
investigated the story about chimps and
00:30:01
yeah that was pretty pretty crazy. But
00:30:03
staying with Jane I went back and um it
00:30:07
just established a it's not a
00:30:09
friendship. It was more like she was
00:30:10
sort of like my mom home away from home
00:30:12
because her son Grub was exactly the
00:30:15
same age as me and he was in London and
00:30:17
so she had this like kid turn up. So she
00:30:20
was sort of able to, you know, sort of
00:30:21
mother me a bit and, you know, fuss and
00:30:24
ask me about whether I had a girlfriend
00:30:26
and all of this and and she loved
00:30:28
examining people. So at night, you know,
00:30:31
she would famously and, you know, she
00:30:33
liked scotch and so she would do a day
00:30:36
up the hill. She was absolutely I went
00:30:38
up the hill with her a few times and she
00:30:40
would just race through the jungle and
00:30:42
follow her chimpanzees and you were just
00:30:44
like, where where's she gone? She could
00:30:46
move like incredibly and then she'd just
00:30:48
sit and wait. So I went up and saw all
00:30:49
the chimpanzees a lot. The end of the
00:30:51
day, you know, she'd sit down and and
00:30:53
talk to me about what she'd observed and
00:30:56
what she was thinking of doing and and
00:30:59
um asking me about my life and drinking
00:31:01
scotch and you look over Lake Tangana to
00:31:04
Zire in the Congo and yeah, it was it
00:31:06
was spectacular. Amazing. Amazing.
00:31:08
>> Uh I actually had that on my card here.
00:31:10
I was going to ask you if you smoke if
00:31:11
you if you drunk scotch with her. I I I
00:31:13
this caught me by surprise, but I don't
00:31:15
know if you saw this, but there was this
00:31:16
fabulous interview on Netflix which was
00:31:18
like um it was recorded I think in the
00:31:20
last year of her life. Then they vaulted
00:31:21
it until she died.
00:31:23
>> So anything Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she
00:31:25
was like she was sipping scotch or
00:31:27
whiskey through that uh interview. Loves
00:31:29
it.
00:31:30
>> Yeah. She Yeah. I think in that
00:31:32
interview she said, "Oh, my voice, you
00:31:33
know, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:35
She just really likes a little tipple
00:31:37
just to get her thinking. Like a lot of
00:31:39
her writing she Yeah. She wouldn't drink
00:31:41
a lot. She she's very measured, but she
00:31:44
would just light a fire on the beach,
00:31:46
have a short shot or two, and then start
00:31:49
telling stories. And her stories, you
00:31:51
know, I still draw upon her stories
00:31:53
today. Um, and you know,
00:31:56
>> like what
00:31:57
>> uh uh there's the ghosts, that was her
00:32:00
big story. Uh there's two stories there.
00:32:03
One one is that she said at night you
00:32:04
might hear chains like dragging and I
00:32:07
was like, "Yeah." And she said, "We've
00:32:08
all heard chains dragging." And that is
00:32:10
absolutely the caravan, the path that
00:32:12
the slave trade took right through GMI.
00:32:15
That was that was the path back to um
00:32:18
the ocean and that's where the slave
00:32:20
trade went. And she said, "You're
00:32:21
hearing the ghosts of the souls of the
00:32:23
people who died around this region." So
00:32:25
that freaked me out cuz then you go to a
00:32:27
you know, you didn't have electricity at
00:32:29
GMA. You go back to your room and this
00:32:31
there was that. And also um you know I
00:32:33
did work up an idea where Jane told a
00:32:36
story where um she said uh one night uh
00:32:40
we woke up and it was light uh in the
00:32:42
middle of the night. The whole region
00:32:44
was was light. It it just night became
00:32:47
day and she said we've never understood
00:32:50
what happened what it was. And I asked
00:32:52
some other people then and everyone
00:32:54
talks about it as a phenomena. there was
00:32:56
just this sort of glitch and like no one
00:32:58
can explain how it was completely
00:33:00
daylight and so that's always fascinated
00:33:03
me and I I have actually used that as a
00:33:05
concept
00:33:06
>> uh in a drama but you know pluribus has
00:33:09
kind of used a bit of that now we wrote
00:33:11
something called the sighting so I did
00:33:12
write something based on that
00:33:14
>> um she told you not to follow your
00:33:16
passion but to follow what you're good
00:33:18
at
00:33:19
>> um did you listen
00:33:21
>> yeah yeah I think she kind of also
00:33:24
taught me uh not to be not to have an
00:33:27
employer. Like that's really why I left
00:33:30
um TVNZ to set up my own company. She
00:33:32
just said, you know, like happiness is,
00:33:34
you know, freedom is is one of the great
00:33:36
things in terms of being happy. Um and
00:33:40
so I just uh I I did listen to her a lot
00:33:43
and so um yeah, her advice in terms in
00:33:46
terms of that was was really key in a
00:33:48
lot of decisions I made. M is the is the
00:33:52
dream for most people listening to this
00:33:53
or watching this to try and find an
00:33:55
access somewhere. So your passion is
00:33:57
what you're good at.
00:33:59
>> Well, the thing is if you're good at
00:34:01
something and it doesn't actually put,
00:34:02
you know, food on the table, then you're
00:34:04
pretty stupid to follow that passion.
00:34:06
You know, like your passion might be
00:34:08
that you want to be um something where
00:34:11
there's there's not a chance for you to
00:34:12
flourish. And sometimes if you're good
00:34:14
at something, it's pretty wise to go,
00:34:16
okay, I'm good at that and then I can
00:34:18
earn enough money to pursue my passion.
00:34:21
And so, and I'll have a comfortable
00:34:23
life. And uh so sometimes uh that advice
00:34:27
is not necessarily correct. And so I I
00:34:29
subscribed to do what you're good at.
00:34:32
And yeah, despite what I got told at
00:34:34
school, I I was okay at writing.
00:34:36
>> See, I still say I was okay. Um, and so
00:34:40
I thought, you know, that was what I was
00:34:42
good at. And so it wasn't necessarily a
00:34:44
passion.
00:34:46
>> So it was writing that I was good at
00:34:47
that I was able to use. Like um, you
00:34:49
know, we had writing in our family. Like
00:34:51
my grandmother was the first woman to
00:34:53
get uh, an English degree at Otago
00:34:56
University. First woman to go to Otaga
00:34:58
University and get a degree. So writing
00:35:00
was in me. I followed what I was good
00:35:02
at. And then off that I was able to
00:35:05
pursue my passions. Like I was in a
00:35:06
band. That was a passion. But it wasn't
00:35:08
going to make me a million dollars.
00:35:10
>> Made you 55 bucks, I believe.
00:35:11
>> 55. Yeah.
00:35:12
>> Um, someone else that you went on to
00:35:14
work with when you came back to New
00:35:16
Zealand that I suppose had a similar
00:35:17
piece of advice to Jane Goodall about
00:35:19
um, you know, being your own boss. Um,
00:35:21
Sir Paul Holmes,
00:35:22
>> didn't he say to you something like, um,
00:35:24
you don't want the gun pointed at you,
00:35:25
you want to be the one holding the gun.
00:35:27
>> Yeah,
00:35:27
>> he did. Yeah, that was a piece of advice
00:35:30
he gave me when when I was a young
00:35:32
reporter at TVN Zed. and Paul and I um I
00:35:35
came back and I was a little bit you
00:35:37
know liberal left unionized at the time
00:35:39
and my first meeting with Paul was um
00:35:42
wasn't so good because I was
00:35:43
representing the journalist. I became
00:35:45
the journalist spokesman in the newsroom
00:35:47
and something happened and it sort of
00:35:49
opposed Paul and Paul kind of like um
00:35:53
went upstairs and came down and found me
00:35:55
in the newsroom didn't even know who I
00:35:56
was and said you're finished you're
00:35:58
finished down here and up there and you
00:36:00
know he was you know brutal threat and I
00:36:03
just laughed at him and I said you know
00:36:05
that's really amazing threat Paul and he
00:36:07
went yeah and I said but there's one
00:36:09
problem he said what's he said I don't
00:36:11
care I don't care because I don't even
00:36:13
want to be here So, I just don't care.
00:36:15
And he sort of looked at me and he kind
00:36:16
of started laughing and then he went
00:36:18
away and kind of went, "Who is that
00:36:20
little shit?" Like, you know, pretty
00:36:22
much, you know, that's when he got an
00:36:24
interest. And then, you know, I went on,
00:36:26
I worked as one of the producers on
00:36:27
Homes and a reporter, but I mean,
00:36:29
there's greatness in homes. I wasn't one
00:36:31
of those great Mike Valentine's and
00:36:33
Cameron Bennett and all those wonderful
00:36:35
reporters who were on there but I got to
00:36:37
live in their world and and um you know
00:36:40
I got to produce the show for a while
00:36:42
and uh it was it was incredible. Yeah.
00:36:45
And Paul did give a lot of advice and
00:36:47
the one about you know he definitely
00:36:49
said at one point he said look you're
00:36:50
kind of he could see you are kind of an
00:36:52
entrepreneur you you don't really want
00:36:54
all these bosses like doing the home
00:36:57
show like if you put a show out you
00:36:59
would you had like you know the head of
00:37:01
news and current affairs you had the CEO
00:37:03
of TVNZ you had the minister of
00:37:05
broadcasting you had the prime minister
00:37:07
they would all ring you pretty much
00:37:08
after the show and you're sitting there
00:37:10
really young they r say that was good
00:37:12
that was bad that was good that was bad
00:37:13
you had a lot of masters is in those
00:37:15
days. Of course, I don't think Chris
00:37:17
Luxon rings up Jeremy Wells now, but uh
00:37:20
in those days it was a much more
00:37:22
political show. You know, we'd have
00:37:24
Bulger on and you know, I I loved that
00:37:26
form of journalism. You know, we'd be
00:37:27
going, "Why'd you do that today?" You
00:37:29
know, how does that affect the people?
00:37:30
And Paul was always for the people, you
00:37:33
know, and even in and giving me some
00:37:34
career advice. He was he was for the
00:37:36
people. Yeah.
00:37:37
>> Oh, look, for anyone um under a certain
00:37:40
age, it's probably hard to imagine or
00:37:41
fathom just how how big this show was.
00:37:44
like homes 7:00 p.m. on TV1. Uh yeah,
00:37:47
how many how many viewers? Like 800,000
00:37:49
a night, a million a night. It's like it
00:37:51
was massive. And if anything happened in
00:37:52
the news, you were sort of summoned onto
00:37:54
the home show. Like I've had um Justin
00:37:56
Marshall on the podcast and he had an
00:37:58
incident where John Hart took him off
00:38:00
the field and he got caught on Mike
00:38:01
swearing saying this is [ __ ]
00:38:02
[ __ ] And it was became such a media
00:38:04
thing he was sort of summoned to homes
00:38:06
the next day to to make a public
00:38:08
apology.
00:38:08
>> Yeah, it was the court. Yeah, it was.
00:38:10
Paul was the was the judge, you know,
00:38:13
and he gave people, you know, Jonah had,
00:38:15
you know, a huge moment on the show
00:38:17
where um, you know, over one of his
00:38:19
marriages and his personal relationship
00:38:21
situation, cried on the show, hugely
00:38:24
emotional. That rated, you know,
00:38:25
obviously off the charts, but Paul had
00:38:27
an ability to to have empathy with
00:38:30
people. You know, that's the one thing,
00:38:32
you know, he definitely had a soul and
00:38:34
so greatly missed.
00:38:36
>> When were you there? What years were you
00:38:37
on the home show? I can't remember, but
00:38:39
it' be uh
00:38:41
I I've I'm such a dreamer. I have
00:38:44
problems. But it' be like late 80s. Oh,
00:38:46
no. No. See, I can't even remember if it
00:38:48
was 90s. I I honestly can't recall my
00:38:52
timeline, but um yeah, it was
00:38:56
Yeah. No, it was been 90 95 97. Yeah. 90
00:39:01
around 97 98.
00:39:03
>> What was um that ballering you got
00:39:04
before you worked for him down? Was that
00:39:06
the best bowler king from Paul Holmes or
00:39:07
was there better ballikings?
00:39:09
>> Uh, no. Subsequently, Paul Paul once
00:39:12
you're in the team, you're in the team,
00:39:14
you know, and there's a lot of good
00:39:15
people like that in New Zealand
00:39:16
journalism once you're on the team. So
00:39:17
once you're on the inside and he trusts
00:39:19
you, cuz trust is a big issue with Paul.
00:39:21
Like he was a little bit paranoid.
00:39:23
>> Um, he shared all sorts of inappropriate
00:39:26
things with you. Like he was an open
00:39:27
book from there on in. And he he was
00:39:29
very open about his life, you know. Um,
00:39:31
he shared a lot and had had his own
00:39:34
struggles with things. um uh deserved a
00:39:37
much longer life. So, uh yeah, in terms
00:39:41
of in terms of bollockings, uh no, from
00:39:44
there he he was always pretty good. It's
00:39:45
like if if something went wrong, the
00:39:47
team, you know, it was it was pretty
00:39:49
much a team thing. What you know, what
00:39:50
did we do wrong? But man, he worked
00:39:52
like, you know, and you know,
00:39:53
>> he was up, you know, radio and then he'd
00:39:56
come into the morning meetings. He was
00:39:58
better briefed than everyone. He knew
00:39:59
what was going on in New Zealand, in the
00:40:01
world at, you know, 9:30 in the morning
00:40:03
for the first meeting. Paul knew the
00:40:05
agenda before anyone because everyone
00:40:06
else is just waking up and got their
00:40:08
first coffee and he's like been on air
00:40:10
for hours and so he's like I need to get
00:40:12
to Tapo. I need to talk to the grieving
00:40:14
wife. Get me a helicopter. I'll be there
00:40:15
at 11:00. I'll be back at 1:00. I'll
00:40:17
pre-record this. I'll do that. Man, what
00:40:19
a day and then and then knock it out
00:40:21
live and do it again the next day.
00:40:25
Unbelievable.
00:40:25
>> Oh, he he's he's phenomenal. And his his
00:40:28
flaws made almost made him um yeah, the
00:40:30
the broadcaster that he was. I I had um
00:40:32
Sir John King on the podcast a couple of
00:40:34
years ago. He told a story about uh when
00:40:36
he was um I think in the early days of
00:40:38
his prime ministership going out for
00:40:39
dinner at Parnell somewhere and Paul was
00:40:41
there and Paul said, "Come and join us
00:40:43
for a wine." So she had a bottle of wine
00:40:45
and then he he was like, "We'll get
00:40:46
another one." And John was like, "No,
00:40:47
Paul, you I'm I'm being interviewed by
00:40:49
you on Q&A tomorrow morning." Um so John
00:40:52
went home and then the next day went
00:40:53
there and Paul was like, "Oh, I'm hung
00:40:55
over." And then as soon as the the
00:40:56
cameras were on and the mics were on,
00:40:58
bang,
00:40:58
>> bang, on fire.
00:40:59
>> Yeah. sharp, super sharp and just funny.
00:41:03
I mean, Paul was just funny, you know.
00:41:06
He's he was so clever, like musically
00:41:08
talented, funny, um, literate, uh,
00:41:11
unbelievable understanding the arts, you
00:41:13
know, like John Clark is where he
00:41:15
started in comedy, you know, and with
00:41:17
his famous, um, I think it was a it was
00:41:20
a flea race or something that he did
00:41:22
down at the shadow, which was the
00:41:23
turning point in his life. was John
00:41:24
Clark really created the Paul Holmes
00:41:27
character and that I don't think that
00:41:28
story's ever been told but but Paul
00:41:30
Holmes
00:41:31
>> How do you mean John Clark as in Fred
00:41:32
Dag?
00:41:33
>> Yeah.
00:41:34
>> Yeah. He created Paul Holmes basically
00:41:36
and it is a story that hasn't been told
00:41:38
but John Clark Fred Dag. They did a show
00:41:40
and Paul was doing a race. I think it
00:41:42
was like it was a flea race and he was
00:41:45
doing a comedy sketch and basically he
00:41:48
did it as um he he did Paul Holmes
00:41:52
comedy just hi I'm Paul Holmes and all
00:41:54
this then he did this good good
00:41:56
afternoon ladies and gentlemen and
00:41:57
welcome to the race it's the race of the
00:42:00
fleas and they're going to race and and
00:42:01
and they did it and all the mata farmers
00:42:04
they all laughed like [ __ ] and when they
00:42:06
left John Clark in the van turned to
00:42:08
Paul and he said that is the Paul Holmes
00:42:11
you talk like that and Paul went good
00:42:14
afternoon and I'm Paul Holmes and
00:42:16
welcome to me and and that's when he was
00:42:18
discovered and so Paul used that form of
00:42:21
addiction from that moment where John
00:42:22
Clark said that's how you perform
00:42:24
everyone loves that.
00:42:26
>> Wow.
00:42:27
>> Yeah.
00:42:28
>> Well, I've heard him referred to as um
00:42:30
like an Uncle Arthur sort of character
00:42:32
which was um a character on some
00:42:33
Australian comedy show. Interesting.
00:42:35
Came from John Clark.
00:42:37
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's courtesy of Tom
00:42:39
Scott, that story.
00:42:42
>> So, is it after the home show that the
00:42:43
entrepreneurial chapter of your story
00:42:46
began?
00:42:47
>> Yeah, I kind of I'd read a book called
00:42:49
Primary Colors, which was it was a ghost
00:42:51
book about Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton
00:42:53
had a thing called uh FaceTime before,
00:42:56
forget the word FaceTime. Unfortunate
00:42:58
phrase now, but he if he ever had a
00:43:01
problem, he would wouldn't fax people or
00:43:04
ring them. he would demand facetime with
00:43:06
them, get them in to use his charisma to
00:43:08
convince them as to what he wanted. And
00:43:10
and this book was all about you got to,
00:43:12
you know, do facetime to get to the big
00:43:14
time. So I was at TVZ producing away and
00:43:16
I thought I'll meet all of the bosses at
00:43:18
TV and Z. I'll go and meet them because
00:43:20
we weren't allowed to go up to the fifth
00:43:21
floor. So I made appointments to meet
00:43:23
all the bosses and went and met one and
00:43:25
was Mike Latton and I said look I want
00:43:27
to go out and be an entrepreneur in this
00:43:29
industry and I was doing FaceTime. He
00:43:32
was like initially he's like what are
00:43:34
you doing here? you're you're a producer
00:43:35
down on that floor. We don't talk to
00:43:36
people down there. And in the end, he
00:43:38
said, "Oh, look, I've got uh I own the
00:43:40
rights to the golf show." Um, and you're
00:43:43
into you're into golf and sport. I I'll
00:43:45
give you them for a dollar. And so I
00:43:47
went, "Okay." And I walked out of the
00:43:49
meeting. I rang Sky that virtually rang
00:43:51
them straight away and said, "Hi, I own
00:43:53
the rights to the golf show in New
00:43:54
Zealand. It's really big in Australia."
00:43:56
And they went, "Great. Come and talk to
00:43:57
us." And like within a few weeks, I had
00:44:00
the Golf Show and Philip Leechman and
00:44:01
Air New Zealand and Golf Harbor all on
00:44:03
board. and I just left. And that suited
00:44:06
me as a producer like you know it's
00:44:08
people wonder why you do producing
00:44:10
because there's a horrible saying but
00:44:12
you spend your life pissing on bush
00:44:13
fires which is what you do. It's you
00:44:15
know you're constantly solving problems
00:44:17
but you know I love it because um it's
00:44:20
kind of just part of that creative
00:44:22
process of getting things made and yeah
00:44:25
>> why why did he sell you the rights to
00:44:27
the golf show for a dollar? That that
00:44:28
usually when when a dollar transaction
00:44:30
usually happens that usually means
00:44:31
you're buying a whole lot of debt as
00:44:32
well. He he just wanted to help me
00:44:34
because I had the audacity to go up
00:44:35
there. Incredible. And he wasn't going
00:44:37
to use it at TV and Zed. So, he just
00:44:40
went, "You can have it." And uh he he
00:44:43
just because I'd put myself forward and
00:44:46
taken this advice, which is get in front
00:44:48
of people, talk to people, you know,
00:44:50
FaceTime, which is really important in
00:44:52
this day and age when people are now
00:44:54
sitting behind, you know, monitors and
00:44:56
terminals and and not communicating
00:44:58
directly, but direct engagement, you
00:45:00
know, is is so important. That's why,
00:45:02
you know, we hear people today like
00:45:04
Scott Galloway, Professor Scott
00:45:05
Galloway, saying that young people
00:45:07
should be um drinking more um and going
00:45:11
out and meeting people and yeah, making
00:45:13
a few mistakes because they're at least
00:45:15
engaging with people and instead they're
00:45:18
sitting in bedrooms and the damage that
00:45:20
it's doing to their mental health is way
00:45:22
worse than a slightly bad hangover from
00:45:24
going out and meeting real people and
00:45:26
engaging in life itself.
00:45:29
>> Yeah. Yeah. that um that FaceTime theory
00:45:31
that you talk about, it's probably never
00:45:32
been more applicable than what it is
00:45:34
now. I don't think that's really
00:45:35
powerful.
00:45:35
>> Eh, yeah. A lot of people write about it
00:45:37
now and like it's all memes like you
00:45:39
know 100 nos, you know, going out and
00:45:41
seeking 100 rejections. You know there's
00:45:43
a lot of stuff you know that's the good
00:45:45
side of social media that encourages
00:45:46
people to do some positive stuff which
00:45:49
is authentic. Um you know uh the you
00:45:52
know let them let them say what they
00:45:54
want. Mel Robbins and all of her stuff,
00:45:56
the 5-second rule, you know, but it's
00:45:58
all it's all old old stuff. Like to me,
00:46:00
in some ways, I've applied quite a few
00:46:02
of those rules, but that FaceTime one,
00:46:04
>> it you're always going to be much closer
00:46:06
to getting what you want if you meet the
00:46:08
person and and they can physically
00:46:10
engage with you.
00:46:12
>> Yeah.
00:46:12
>> Yeah. It it is all regurgitated. Like
00:46:14
some of the some of the best books I've
00:46:15
ever read are like the really old ones
00:46:16
like Napoleon Hill or Dale Cariegi
00:46:18
>> like um and it's all just the same stuff
00:46:21
regurgitated, but it's all powerful.
00:46:23
>> Yeah. The E-Myth is, you know, that's
00:46:25
what started me. The E-Myth is is um,
00:46:28
you know, you either work in your
00:46:30
business or on your business. And that's
00:46:31
the E-Myth.
00:46:32
>> And, you know, I've helped a lot of
00:46:34
people, but that's a very old um, uh,
00:46:38
form of advice, but um,
00:46:40
>> you see it regurgitated today in social
00:46:42
media, but it's the fundamental
00:46:44
principles there.
00:46:46
So that golf show that you're talking
00:46:47
about with um the late great Philip
00:46:49
Leechman um so you guys built that up
00:46:51
and then sold it to a company called
00:46:52
UpLink.
00:46:54
>> So Upink was our company.
00:46:55
>> Upink was the company.
00:46:56
>> Yeah. And then we we built it up. Yeah.
00:46:58
And um you know that was again that was
00:47:02
probably one of the best examples of um
00:47:05
of the way the way I think uh and the
00:47:08
way I think everyone should think was
00:47:10
and it was one key thing that we did and
00:47:12
that was we needed someone to do the
00:47:13
golf tips and we're sitting around the
00:47:15
table. Our office was the Gypsy T-Rooms
00:47:18
in Greylin. We were there for 7 years
00:47:20
before Gypsy T-room and Phil rightfully
00:47:22
suggested Phil Tartarangi and you know
00:47:24
Grant Mohead and Ela and all these
00:47:26
people and I said no we want some do
00:47:28
golf tips it's massive you know like
00:47:31
let's start with you know Tiger Woods
00:47:33
and work down from there and so we had a
00:47:35
list of and Phil just sat there like
00:47:37
you're crazy you're crazy so I got on
00:47:39
the phone I rang around and somehow I
00:47:41
found Gary Player and he was launching
00:47:44
golf courses in Malaysia and so I got
00:47:47
his son in South Africa and he Dad's up
00:47:49
in Malaysia launching golf courses. If
00:47:52
you fly up, he'll give you like a day or
00:47:54
two days or whatever to do golf tips as
00:47:56
long as you show the golf courses he's
00:47:58
designing. So, I flew up there, met Gary
00:48:01
Player, who was absolutely incredible.
00:48:03
And Gary is just an absolute natural
00:48:06
with the TV. He just said, "Whatever you
00:48:08
want, whatever you want, I'll do." So, I
00:48:10
just filmed him non-stop for two days.
00:48:12
Golf tips, golf tips, golf tips. So, we
00:48:15
had Gary Player doing our golf tips.
00:48:16
Then what happened was this Australian
00:48:18
company, you know, we went to um ESPN
00:48:21
and said, "Do you want our golf show?"
00:48:22
And they said, "What a New Zealand golf
00:48:24
show. Who hosts it?" And I went, "Gary
00:48:26
player." And they went, "Ah, I didn't
00:48:28
say Phil Le, sorry, Phil." But um Gary
00:48:32
Player, they bought the golf show and as
00:48:34
a result of that, and a big
00:48:36
international company came in and said
00:48:38
to us, "Oh, you make a golf show. What's
00:48:39
it on?" "Oh, it's on ESPN. Uh are you
00:48:42
interested in it?" And they said, "No,
00:48:43
we won't buy the show. We'll buy your
00:48:45
company." because we had that show on
00:48:47
ESPN. So, it was thinking big got us all
00:48:50
the way through to a massive buyout of
00:48:52
our company by a British company.
00:48:54
>> So, it seemed like you hustled hard like
00:48:56
and you were thinking big, you know, in
00:48:58
order to get like a Gary Player on. But,
00:48:59
um, was it like creative? You weren't
00:49:02
lying, but creative with your phrasing.
00:49:04
>> Oh, you mean with Gary Player?
00:49:06
>> Oh, no. With saying it's on ESPN and
00:49:08
saying Gary Player.
00:49:09
>> Well, it was on ESPN. Yeah. It genuinely
00:49:11
was on ESPN and Gary. No, we pushed Gary
00:49:14
to the front of our international
00:49:16
version. So, it did feel like Gary was
00:49:18
So, it was Phil and Gary. So, it was
00:49:21
there. It was It was for real. Yeah. And
00:49:24
because I shot so much material in two
00:49:26
days with him cuz he just talked
00:49:28
non-stop for two days. So, about
00:49:30
everything. So,
00:49:32
>> Amazing. So, by 31 um you'd made enough
00:49:35
money to be set up for life.
00:49:37
>> Yeah. Well, well, yeah. Yeah, I had
00:49:40
enough to be mortgage free and own own a
00:49:42
home and and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:45
And bought a place in Queenstown and
00:49:48
>> Yeah.
00:49:48
>> Yeah. That ended up being a smart
00:49:49
investment. You still got it to this
00:49:50
day.
00:49:51
>> Yeah.
00:49:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:52
>> Did Did you um Yeah. buy a cool car or
00:49:54
do anything foolish at the time?
00:49:56
>> You're 31.
00:49:57
>> Yeah, I know. No, I was I was pretty
00:50:00
pretty cautious really. Like that's the
00:50:02
Southland coming out and you the
00:50:04
Scottish heritage is like you don't want
00:50:07
to be showy and I've never been showy.
00:50:09
Um the only showy thing we've ever done
00:50:11
probably le and I is I bought her
00:50:14
Mustang for her 60th birthday and
00:50:17
otherwise um yeah but we have got a
00:50:20
beautiful um sort of farm down in
00:50:22
Queenstown and it's amazing. Yeah. So
00:50:25
>> yeah, I I found a quote from you. Um, I
00:50:28
just need enough for a penino and a
00:50:29
steak at the end of the day. Don't need
00:50:31
anything more than that.
00:50:32
>> Yeah, I think yeah, finding your
00:50:34
happiness is that I do see people with a
00:50:36
lot of clutter. Um, in particular in
00:50:38
Queenstown, a lot of possessions. um
00:50:41
it's just a lot of encumbrance and it's
00:50:44
it's so much to manage and uh it makes
00:50:47
life really complicated and you know I
00:50:49
do think that um you find happiness in
00:50:52
the simple things and decluttering and
00:50:54
getting rid of all that it doesn't
00:50:56
always lead to a happy existence so um
00:51:00
yeah
00:51:01
>> material things they only bring you the
00:51:03
briefest amount of happiness e
00:51:05
>> they do it's a car the first couple of
00:51:07
drives in it a watch first couple of
00:51:09
times you wear it then it just becomes
00:51:11
>> yeah background noise
00:51:12
>> but financial freedom is a great feeling
00:51:14
and I was lucky to have Sir David Lavine
00:51:17
work with me and um you know David often
00:51:20
said that you know he remembers the f
00:51:22
the day where he became mortgage free
00:51:24
and how he felt
00:51:25
>> and so yeah pretty pretty great great
00:51:28
feeling to have that and anyone can
00:51:30
aspire to it. M so selling that company
00:51:32
uplink at 31 and becoming um yeah
00:51:35
mortgage free and yeah financially
00:51:37
secure did did that change your
00:51:39
relationship with risk?
00:51:41
No, I just wanted to keep creating and
00:51:43
growing the company and I always just
00:51:45
felt a responsibility like I had uh you
00:51:48
know I basically set up Great Southern
00:51:50
and Great Southern was just a new idea
00:51:53
and I got on with Sir David Lavine as my
00:51:55
partner and I just wanted to tell New
00:51:57
Zealand stories like I just felt like
00:52:00
you know I wanted to get out of sport
00:52:01
and get into drama and comedy and things
00:52:04
that I was really into and I had to
00:52:05
learn about it and so I it was just a
00:52:08
chance for me to be able to put money
00:52:10
into a
00:52:11
and grow a new company which is Great
00:52:13
Southern and just sort of grow that up
00:52:15
you know and it's gone through multiple
00:52:17
iterations and you know it's been cool
00:52:20
it's been corporate it's been family
00:52:23
it's been big it's been small it's you
00:52:25
know it's gone through so many
00:52:26
iterations through through all the
00:52:29
phases of the media so yeah
00:52:31
>> yes so David Lavine who who you've
00:52:33
mentioned um your wealthy businessman
00:52:36
anyone over a certain age will remember
00:52:38
the the chain of stores Lavine and Yeah.
00:52:41
>> What would you compare them to now?
00:52:42
What's um what's the
00:52:43
>> Brisco or Oh, no. He died.
00:52:46
>> Paint and decorating. It was massive.
00:52:47
There was like 50 branches around the
00:52:49
country. It was a massive massive chain.
00:52:50
>> So, how did you connect through your
00:52:52
involvement as a volunteer with
00:52:54
Outwardbound? Is that how you
00:52:55
>> Yeah. He um uh so we had the golf show
00:52:59
and um Leanne's auntie introduced me to
00:53:02
Sir David uh Elaine Lunan. She
00:53:05
introduced me and basically David wanted
00:53:07
to raise money for Outbound. So, we met
00:53:09
and I said, "Why don't we do a charity
00:53:10
golf tournament at Golf Harour and we'll
00:53:13
gift you one episode of the golf show
00:53:15
and the charity can sell all the
00:53:17
advertising and all the sponsorship
00:53:19
around it and we'll put it on air, you
00:53:21
know, on, you know, all around the world
00:53:23
basically." And so, they were able to
00:53:25
sell that one show for about 100 grand
00:53:28
and hold this tournament. And so, it
00:53:30
raised and so David saw that and he kind
00:53:33
of was listening to all these people on
00:53:34
the board and he go, "Oh, be quiet. What
00:53:36
are you saying, Phil?" like he listened
00:53:37
to me because we'd got the money and and
00:53:40
he just was a real advocate of me
00:53:42
because he David uh was a young person
00:53:45
in an old man's body in a way. He just
00:53:47
didn't want to go cuz he loved it so
00:53:49
much being an entrepreneur and he was so
00:53:51
clever and so good good with it. So he
00:53:54
sort of said you know uh what you're
00:53:56
going to do next. So, I owned Uplink at
00:53:58
the time, you know, I'll be in there.
00:53:59
And so, when um when Uplink finished and
00:54:03
been sold, I I set up Great Southern and
00:54:05
David became a partner.
00:54:07
>> Yeah.
00:54:07
>> Yeah. The the the story I heard, and I
00:54:09
don't know if this is um um you truth or
00:54:11
not, he like gave you a million bucks
00:54:13
and said, "Here, set up a company and
00:54:15
give me half of it."
00:54:16
>> Yeah.
00:54:17
>> Is is that a lot of pressure?
00:54:19
>> Um
00:54:19
>> like taking taking that sum of money off
00:54:21
someone else?
00:54:22
>> Really think about it cuz I put some of
00:54:23
my own money in as well. So we had to
00:54:25
set up editing and in those days all the
00:54:27
hard costs, hardwire costs were greater,
00:54:30
edit suites, you know, Avid's, you know,
00:54:32
you can edit a show now on a laptop, but
00:54:34
in in our day it was hundreds of
00:54:36
thousands. So it did it was capital
00:54:38
investment. Um, but is it pressure? Uh,
00:54:42
>> yeah. Yeah. But he was such a kind
00:54:44
person. He never really threw a wobbly
00:54:47
or anything, you know, because he just
00:54:48
said he used to get frustrated because
00:54:50
I'd say we got this show and this show
00:54:52
and this show and I go in and only one
00:54:54
of them would be happening and he'd go
00:54:56
it's all just dreams and would get
00:54:58
frustrated cuz he was used to produce
00:55:01
paint, sell paint, you know, boom boom
00:55:03
it was a transaction whereas ours is all
00:55:05
ethereal and you know someone at a
00:55:08
network might just suddenly say I don't
00:55:09
want your show I don't like it for
00:55:11
whatever reason you know they might not
00:55:13
like you they might not like the idea.
00:55:14
So David struggled in a way to
00:55:17
understand how how how weird our
00:55:19
industry was, but but it was a good
00:55:22
relationship
00:55:22
>> and and you built that company up into
00:55:24
to being something amazing which you're
00:55:26
still at now. Uh 2017 you sold 70% of
00:55:29
the company to Yeah. Australian outfit.
00:55:32
>> Yeah. Like all our competitors in New
00:55:34
Zealand, our big competitors like SP,
00:55:36
South Pacific Pictures, Screen Time,
00:55:38
Baner, um Greenstone is owned by Cordell
00:55:41
Jigsaw. So the big competitors are all
00:55:43
foreignowned. And so the thing is now we
00:55:45
have to put a lot of money in to show.
00:55:47
So if I'm making a drama like say, you
00:55:49
know, I'm not even sure, but Blue Murder
00:55:51
Motel is on air at the moment. Well, I
00:55:53
have to guarantee about $4 million of
00:55:55
that money uh to make the show. Um and
00:55:58
then we make it then we get it back at
00:55:59
the end as a rebate. But you know, it's
00:56:02
at any given time I got, you know, 4 8
00:56:04
10 12 million out. And the thing is it
00:56:08
does come back, but it's a lot of risk.
00:56:10
you know, it's a risky business. It's
00:56:12
like the indie film industry. What if it
00:56:13
doesn't come back? Then you've got a
00:56:15
problem. And so our competitors like SP
00:56:18
are foreignowned. They're owned by, you
00:56:19
know, billion dollar company and and
00:56:21
good on them. There's no issue with
00:56:22
that. But they've got the financial
00:56:24
security behind them. We're just a
00:56:26
little Kiwi company. So for us, having a
00:56:28
foreign channel like a channel 7 coming
00:56:31
and buy us is a great opportunity. So we
00:56:33
got seven to invest in us and that gave
00:56:35
us the ability to borrow uh to to grow
00:56:39
because I could only underwrite two
00:56:42
three dramas a year personally out of my
00:56:44
own money. Otherwise uh we needed
00:56:48
someone to back us. And so we did the
00:56:50
deal. Seven bought us. Three years
00:56:52
later, seven studios, billion dollar
00:56:54
studio making, you know, restaurant
00:56:56
shows, making Home and Away, all these
00:56:58
incredible shows. They just shut it
00:57:00
overnight. They just closed seven
00:57:01
studios and so they owned 17 production
00:57:04
companies and in the end I got Great
00:57:05
Southern back. Today I sit here looking
00:57:08
all relaxed. Um because you know three
00:57:10
years ago I bought it back for you know
00:57:13
you know I did a deal with seven and and
00:57:16
they they pretty much gave the companies
00:57:18
back to the to the all the companies
00:57:20
owned around the world. they kept New
00:57:22
Zealand because we were financially
00:57:24
successful and very useful being
00:57:26
connected to Australia and then in the
00:57:29
end they agreed that it was better that
00:57:31
um that I took it back because uh they
00:57:34
just couldn't leverage owning a New
00:57:36
Zealand company when they only had one
00:57:37
and they had no one to run it basically.
00:57:39
They didn't have a studio. Did did you
00:57:41
buy it back for a similar price to what
00:57:42
you sold it for or
00:57:43
>> I I think there's something in the
00:57:45
contract that says I can't disclose
00:57:46
that. Wow. Some people have said it was
00:57:48
an Allen Bond moment. Uh which is but it
00:57:52
was
00:57:52
>> you sold high and bought low.
00:57:54
>> Yeah. I think it'd be fair to say it
00:57:55
was, you know, I they very kindly
00:57:58
invited me to pay less than what they
00:57:59
paid for it. Um which was which was very
00:58:02
kind. They they were good when they
00:58:03
closed. They they actually gave
00:58:05
companies back to a lot of the Brits.
00:58:07
So, you know, they they were they were
00:58:09
pretty good about it,
00:58:10
>> mate. That's amazing. What a story. Um
00:58:12
there's a a quote which um has stuck
00:58:14
with me my entire life from um someone
00:58:15
that you name dropped earlier, Gary
00:58:17
Player. Um the harder I practice, the
00:58:19
luckier I get.
00:58:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's that thing, you
00:58:23
know, to young people today, you know,
00:58:24
the fear of rejection is such a a weird
00:58:27
thing. Like you've just got to, you
00:58:29
know, the more nos, you're closer to a
00:58:31
yes. And like even New Zealand on air
00:58:33
and network say when they ring me up and
00:58:35
say look you know we don't want that
00:58:36
show. I think I've got a reputation for
00:58:39
being the person that cares the least. I
00:58:41
just kind of go oh yeah anyway I've got
00:58:43
this. I just switch. I just go decision
00:58:45
made. Move on. I don't even hold the
00:58:48
rejection.
00:58:49
>> I just go sweet. What are you looking
00:58:51
for? What was wrong in that proposal? Uh
00:58:54
>> oh okay. We've got that. I just move on.
00:58:56
I don't dwell. I mean retribution you
00:58:58
know revenge. You know, you got to dig
00:59:00
two graves if you're seeking revenge and
00:59:02
you know, you got to remember that. So,
00:59:04
if you are vengeful, it's a wasted
00:59:06
energy. Take that energy, put it into
00:59:08
the next thing. So, the more rejection,
00:59:10
the better. You know what about if like
00:59:12
you're you're a smart guy and you've
00:59:14
been in TV for a long time. What about
00:59:15
if you know it's a great show?
00:59:18
>> Oh, yeah. You can really feel
00:59:20
disappointed. Uh but you can come back
00:59:22
you know if you really think this is a
00:59:25
this rocks um you can convince people or
00:59:28
you can put it in a drawer like you know
00:59:29
we had one lane bridge which I wrote
00:59:31
originally is called blueb blood
00:59:33
>> um and you know a bit like Barney with
00:59:36
whale rider you know he had that that's
00:59:39
John Barnett from SP he had whale rider
00:59:42
and bottom drawer that script for years
00:59:44
and he waited for the moment it had been
00:59:46
rejected and turned down then just when
00:59:48
someone says we need dong dong dong
00:59:51
Bang. It's It's live. And so One Lane
00:59:53
Bridge was an example of that. Like we
00:59:55
had the idea and the concept. It was a
00:59:57
drama we made down in Queenstown. And it
01:00:00
was just waiting for the moment. It had
01:00:01
had some init initial rejection. Then
01:00:04
boom, it was just live. So you know your
01:00:07
ideas, they can wait this time.
01:00:10
>> Yeah. That's a great show that you
01:00:11
referenced, One Lane Bridge with um Joel
01:00:12
Tobe. It's sold to like 20 countries
01:00:14
around the world.
01:00:15
>> Yeah, it's sold I think 42 actually.
01:00:18
>> Oh, 42.
01:00:19
>> Yeah, 42 countries. Yeah, but All Three
01:00:21
Media, which owns SP, uh we've had a
01:00:24
wonderful relationship with them. Uh
01:00:27
right from the start, they um the first
01:00:29
show I ever offered them was The Lion
01:00:31
Man. Uh we're making The Lion Man, which
01:00:33
was up north, and they bought it and
01:00:36
sold it around the world. And they sold
01:00:37
that to over a hundred countries. And so
01:00:39
I was this little like hero in New
01:00:42
Zealand who'd made this crazy show. It
01:00:44
just sold everywhere, The Lion Man. It
01:00:46
was phenomenal, you know, tragic end to
01:00:48
the story, but um it was good at the
01:00:50
time. So yeah. Yeah, we we use all three
01:00:53
and and One Lane Bridge um traveled
01:00:56
really well during co and was highest
01:00:58
rating show in New Zealand and a drama
01:01:00
in a decade or something. It was
01:01:02
massive.
01:01:03
>> All right, let's get into the sexy stuff
01:01:04
then. The the TV stuff. Oh, first of
01:01:06
all, you I remember the line man with um
01:01:08
what was his name? Craig Bush. Yeah. Was
01:01:10
that his? Yeah. And it was like a lion
01:01:11
park up in Fungaday. What what's the
01:01:13
tragic end of the story?
01:01:15
Oh, just everyone fell out and his
01:01:17
partner died and he went to court and,
01:01:20
you know, got prosecuted and stuff and
01:01:22
Craig, you know, Craig left New Zealand
01:01:25
and the park fell into disrepute. The
01:01:27
mother got into a battle with him and,
01:01:29
you know, that was all really
01:01:30
unfortunate because it was, you know,
01:01:33
fundamentally a fantastic idea and, you
01:01:35
know, with trusted partners, it could
01:01:37
have flourished, but instead it died.
01:01:40
>> It was a great show. You I think it was
01:01:41
like Sunday night 7:00 p.m. or something
01:01:43
like that.
01:01:43
>> Huge. Yeah, Paul Castley voiced it and
01:01:46
the opening song guy Peter Black wrote
01:01:48
it. Not the Peter Black, but um like I
01:01:51
wanted a song cuz uh but to say, you
01:01:54
know, it was from the depths of Southern
01:01:55
Africa, the big cats they have and he's
01:01:58
the lion man doing all he can. And I
01:02:00
took that off Gilligan's Island because
01:02:02
they have, you know, four men in a leaky
01:02:04
boat and they tell the story before the
01:02:07
show starts. So I saw that and applied
01:02:09
that to the lion man. So we told the
01:02:11
story of the line man in the opening
01:02:13
titles and uh so you kind of got his
01:02:15
vibe, you know, he's doing all he can to
01:02:18
make a sanctuary for big cats and all
01:02:20
that. So the show just was warm and
01:02:22
family and it just it just took off. Um
01:02:24
but you know, it was a little bit like
01:02:26
Crusty the Clown, you know, behind the
01:02:28
scenes, our lion man was was was a
01:02:31
different person, you know, and you
01:02:33
know, um you know, I have I have empathy
01:02:35
for him him and his family, but he's now
01:02:37
in Africa and doing well. So, you know,
01:02:39
good luck to him.
01:02:41
>> What are the best shows that you never
01:02:42
made?
01:02:44
>> What's what's your whale rider? What
01:02:45
have you got in the bottom drawer?
01:02:47
>> Uh, yeah. Well, um, yeah, I'd say the
01:02:52
drama that I've written, uh, that I see
01:02:54
being replicated all the time, which we
01:02:56
did have with anonymous content in the
01:02:59
US, is the new America. Uh so I wrote
01:03:01
that about 10 years ago which is
01:03:04
basically people fleeing America due to
01:03:06
unrest and setting up a sanctuary in the
01:03:08
South Island of New Zealand and living
01:03:11
behind um closed walls. And so the new
01:03:14
America was a sort of utopian place but
01:03:17
also a dystopian place. So it was after
01:03:19
an event and uh you know I had all the
01:03:22
research and all the stories because you
01:03:24
know we kind of knew a lot about you
01:03:26
know havenization way before other
01:03:29
people went and did things in Queenstown
01:03:30
cuz these were sort of our neighbors
01:03:32
doing it you know so our neighbors ended
01:03:34
up being you know people that own the
01:03:36
Empire State Building or Levi Strauss or
01:03:39
that guy's from the CIA and like we're
01:03:41
surrounded by that in Queenstown is real
01:03:43
you know and um a lot of people Peter
01:03:45
Teal you know they're building he's not
01:03:47
building a bunker But the bunkerization
01:03:49
of Queenstown, so the new America, uh, I
01:03:53
think I could rewrite it and make it
01:03:54
today. Everyone loved the title. They
01:03:56
just wanted to know exactly what it was.
01:03:57
And I I'm probably more mature as a
01:03:59
writer now. I could take it back to
01:04:01
them, but it would feel almost like too
01:04:03
obvious now.
01:04:04
>> I wish I had it today to put it on here
01:04:06
tomorrow.
01:04:07
>> Is that an insight into um where the
01:04:09
ideas and inspiration come from? Like
01:04:11
you just said then, you know, your
01:04:12
neighbors and Americans that you
01:04:14
>> Yeah. Or or where do the ideas come
01:04:16
from? I think it's a mix. Like people
01:04:19
say write what you know about, but I
01:04:20
think it's absolute nonsense. Like um
01:04:23
you can you can write about anything if
01:04:25
you can research it. And but I do get I
01:04:28
do get uh a lot of inspiration from
01:04:30
living down south. You know, Queenstown
01:04:32
is obviously such a a a wealth of
01:04:35
different characters. It's a really
01:04:36
quirky place. Like it's almost on a lay
01:04:38
line. People are a bit crazy there.
01:04:40
>> Parties are crazier. Uh the ambition's
01:04:43
crazier. Look at bungee jumping. There's
01:04:44
an elevated energy in Queenstown when
01:04:46
people get there, they're just like
01:04:47
suddenly a bit bumped and so it's um a
01:04:50
super cool place. So I I draw on that a
01:04:52
lot. I've got a new show that I've been
01:04:54
in the UK writing for a month um called
01:04:56
Hunter Valley which is based down there.
01:04:59
So that's in development at the moment.
01:05:01
That's that's a show that I you know
01:05:03
really believe in. So um often drawing
01:05:06
on that but then you know I'm also
01:05:08
writing writing another show that's um
01:05:10
completely different. So, you know,
01:05:12
normally got a couple of dramas on the
01:05:14
go at once. Um, we've got we've probably
01:05:16
got one of the better drama teams in New
01:05:18
Zealand. Um, in terms of woman called
01:05:21
Kathleen Anderson who was from TVNZ and
01:05:23
she's just got a lot of talent in terms
01:05:25
of packaging drama and so way we go.
01:05:29
>> When I had um Dame Julie Christie on the
01:05:31
podcast, she I asked her this question.
01:05:33
I'm going to ask you the same one about
01:05:34
which TV show do you wish you made? She
01:05:36
said um David Lomass's missing pieces
01:05:39
and also something that was out on
01:05:41
Netflix at the time um a documentary
01:05:43
about Martha Stewart because she just
01:05:45
liked the way it was shot using your
01:05:47
B-roll and not actual interviews.
01:05:48
>> What about you? What TV shows do you
01:05:50
wish you made?
01:05:50
>> I I always have the same answer. I mean
01:05:53
if you want to know what show wish I
01:05:54
created,
01:05:55
>> Mythbusters.
01:05:57
>> Yeah. Have you heard of Mythbusters?
01:05:59
>> Of course. Yeah. With the two the two
01:06:01
siders.
01:06:01
>> That show has gone on forever. They are
01:06:05
brilliant. It is sold everywhere and it
01:06:08
made a fortune. I'm not about making
01:06:10
money because it was also educational.
01:06:14
Kids could watch with their parents. So,
01:06:16
it was crossover. It was just
01:06:18
everything. It was science, technology,
01:06:21
it was quirky. Everyone in the world
01:06:23
wanted to watch it. And it it was just
01:06:26
brilliant. Like that show. I look at
01:06:28
that and I go, that was perfect,
01:06:30
>> you know, to be honest. uh you know and
01:06:32
in drama you know obviously we do
01:06:34
factual and we do drama um you know uh
01:06:38
there's so many good dramas but you know
01:06:40
obviously um I think you know for me
01:06:43
succession is probably you know my
01:06:45
favorite sort of show just for dialogue
01:06:47
and character and just just how bad
01:06:50
people behave. So
01:06:51
>> yeah.
01:06:52
>> Um some of the shows that you have been
01:06:53
responsible for making um
01:06:55
>> yeah you mentioned Paul Castley before
01:06:57
the name as um the voiceover for the
01:06:59
Lion Man. Uh he was also involved with
01:07:01
um Eating Media Lunch which is one of
01:07:03
yours. That would never be made today. E
01:07:05
not in a million years.
01:07:07
>> Funny you should say that. Um
01:07:08
>> Oh really? Oh, well, you know, we've
01:07:10
it's often been thought about bringing
01:07:13
it back, and I talked to Jeremy last
01:07:15
week about it, and and I I haven't
01:07:17
talked to Paul yet, but we kind of
01:07:19
agreed that the way it's the way it is
01:07:21
and the way it behaves, uh, is that it
01:07:24
would be misinterpreted now because it
01:07:26
was satire. And so, you know, it never
01:07:28
kicked down. It always kicked up. And
01:07:30
that's what satire does. You know, it
01:07:32
highlights, um, failings in society and
01:07:35
takes on people in control. And it's
01:07:38
different to comedy. And so, but if
01:07:40
people read it on paper and they saw us
01:07:42
doing some of our sketches, like the
01:07:43
theme behind it was one of ignorance.
01:07:47
You know, we're saying, why do people
01:07:48
hold these ignorant opinions? And we
01:07:50
would replicate them to highlight them.
01:07:52
But if you did a day in black and white,
01:07:54
it would be killed. It would be killed.
01:07:56
Like it couldn't go to air. Incredibly
01:08:00
online, it is having a huge resurgence.
01:08:02
You know, hundreds of thousands of
01:08:03
viewers. Um, you know, for example,
01:08:06
Jeremy, um, he walked down K Road and
01:08:10
ate kebabs and slowly became a Muslim
01:08:12
and by the end he was reading the Quran,
01:08:15
which of course, as we know, doesn't
01:08:17
actually have that much insightful text
01:08:18
in it, but reading the Quran and was um,
01:08:21
planning to blow up the Sydney nuclear
01:08:23
power plant. Um, and what we're saying
01:08:26
there, whilst that looks completely
01:08:28
ethnosentric and dangerous, what we're
01:08:29
saying there was how freaking ignorant
01:08:32
are we, that we think that every Muslim
01:08:33
we meet is actually an aggressive
01:08:36
person. And of course, we learned
01:08:38
through Bondi that they're not.
01:08:40
>> You know, we learned that um that there
01:08:42
were people that were Muslims who were
01:08:44
willing to take down Muslims uh in, you
01:08:47
know, for the good of humanity. You
01:08:48
know, it was it was interesting.
01:08:50
>> That show was iconic. I I don't think I
01:08:52
ever missed an episode of it.
01:08:53
>> Yeah. Uh, it was incredible.
01:08:56
Um, I've heard you say the name Eating
01:08:58
Media Lunch came from a a Ben Elton
01:09:00
book. Yeah.
01:09:00
>> What What like What does it even mean?
01:09:02
>> Um, so it's in a book called
01:09:04
Inconceivable or Maybe Baby, I can't
01:09:06
remember which one, but it's two guys uh
01:09:09
one guy's at the BBC. This is in the
01:09:11
book and it's fiction. And his best mate
01:09:15
is his boss and he goes out to lunch
01:09:16
with his best mate and he slowly
01:09:18
realizes that his best mate is making
01:09:20
him redundant. And so there's this
01:09:23
moment and he said there I was sitting
01:09:25
there having lunch with my best uh there
01:09:27
I was you know with my best mate um
01:09:30
being made redundant dot dot dot eating
01:09:32
media lunch and I just I I was in the
01:09:35
[ __ ] down in Queens. And I said to
01:09:37
Leanne, "I love that phrase, eating
01:09:38
media lunch. It's really good." And you
01:09:41
know, and I'd already wanted I'd already
01:09:43
worked with Jeremy on a show and Paul,
01:09:45
we'd made a ski show called Shred, which
01:09:47
was pretty much an excuse for us all to
01:09:49
go to Queenstown and um and to go down
01:09:52
and do a show. Leanne hosted it as well,
01:09:55
Jeremy. And we had a great time, but I'd
01:09:57
already worked with them. And then we
01:09:58
made Shred. And that's when Paul and
01:10:01
Jeremy started to get really
01:10:02
problematic. Like, you know, we had
01:10:04
complaints about it. And it was a ski
01:10:06
show. Like it was edgy. And I said, "Why
01:10:09
are we doing a ski show when we can do
01:10:12
the world? Like let's forget skiing.
01:10:14
Let's take this attitude out of shred
01:10:16
and put it into eating media lunch."
01:10:18
That was my idea to grow their world
01:10:20
out. And it was all out of BFM. So it's
01:10:22
a whole, you know, Great Southern really
01:10:24
is is kind of a BFM iteration cuz we
01:10:27
were all at BFM. You know, I was doing
01:10:29
the wire and Marcus was doing breakfast
01:10:31
and Mikey was there, Jeremy was there,
01:10:33
Paul was there, Graeme was there. So,
01:10:35
they all got involved in one way or
01:10:38
another um you know into Great Southern.
01:10:41
So, um and eating media lunch uh I had
01:10:44
the name and then uh you know, we all
01:10:48
love shows like uh the dayto-day which
01:10:50
is a British show, very funny. Alan
01:10:52
Partridge is on it and that was what
01:10:54
inspired us into eating media lunch. M
01:10:56
>> it was but it seems um like unfathomable
01:10:59
that you got over the line like the
01:11:01
layers of management that you had to go
01:11:02
through at TV and Zed to get like it was
01:11:05
one it was the most incredible pitch. It
01:11:07
was incredible like I had a picture of
01:11:10
Jeremy you know looking like you know
01:11:13
the young Jeremy or looking you know
01:11:14
like a big Greek god. And then I wrote
01:11:17
eating media lunch on the other side and
01:11:19
I held it up to the programmer at TV2
01:11:21
Julia Balis. I said, "We got this." And
01:11:24
she went, "I [ __ ] love it. I want
01:11:26
that." And then she went, "What is it?"
01:11:31
And she just went, "What is it?" Like,
01:11:33
and I went and and then it was bluster
01:11:35
because what was it? You know, we, you
01:11:38
know, we did go down south down to
01:11:40
Queenstown and Paul and I and Jeremy
01:11:43
spent a weekend, you know, whiteboarding
01:11:45
and thinking up ideas and all this. We
01:11:47
came up with a few like celebrity share
01:11:49
market and a few things like that. Um
01:11:52
but then in the end Paul just went h
01:11:54
[ __ ] it. We'll just do what we feel like
01:11:56
you know we'll just go back and when we
01:11:57
start we start we'll just you know so it
01:11:59
wasn't a format. It was sort of like
01:12:01
what's an idea of the week and then
01:12:04
Jeremy um you know they started out with
01:12:06
stutter which was the first um the first
01:12:09
episode and we sent it into TV and Julia
01:12:13
rung up and she was just absolutely
01:12:16
wetting herself with laughter. It was
01:12:17
unbelievable. It was so funny.
01:12:18
>> Is that when he was finding tool back
01:12:20
stations with a
01:12:20
>> stutter?
01:12:21
Yeah. And doing the Mari de Mari dea and
01:12:25
all that and um Yeah. And then he did
01:12:27
the Tenoto challenge and stuff and you
01:12:31
know it's just um you know satire does
01:12:34
challenge things and the there really
01:12:36
isn't any satire in New Zealand at the
01:12:38
moment. It's comedy and it's really good
01:12:40
like seven days. you know, all of our
01:12:42
brilliant comedians who are all so
01:12:44
talented and doing so well on the
01:12:46
international stage like Rose Metafo and
01:12:48
Chris Parker and all these it's
01:12:50
incredible what what these guys are
01:12:52
doing. Satire is kind of like not
01:12:53
comedians. Like we're actually just a
01:12:55
bunch of little shits. Like we none of
01:12:57
us would ever stand on a stage and do
01:12:59
standup. So, it's a different form of
01:13:01
comedy. It's kind of like taking pot
01:13:03
shots at everyone, but always aiming up
01:13:06
and never never kicking down. And that's
01:13:09
that's why it was so charming. the uh
01:13:11
Tenoto challenge that you're talking
01:13:12
about. I remember that clearly. It was
01:13:14
just Yeah. Jeremy again ringing talkback
01:13:16
stations and um when the host um
01:13:18
introduces him just saying Tenoto as
01:13:20
many times as he can before they they
01:13:22
cut him off. What was the record like 18
01:13:24
or something?
01:13:25
>> Oh yeah, I think that was Southland TV
01:13:27
and uh of course being Southlanders they
01:13:30
were way more polite and let this guy go
01:13:32
cuz a they probably were trying to
01:13:33
interpret what the word was and um b
01:13:36
they were just more gracious about it.
01:13:38
But um Michael Laws uh was the shortest.
01:13:41
He was he snapped us off really quick
01:13:43
and
01:13:43
>> one
01:13:45
get rid of him. So um yeah, they they
01:13:49
targeted the right people, you know,
01:13:51
like every year um I was always
01:13:53
staggered by who the New Zealander of
01:13:55
the year would be and like Paul Castley
01:13:57
has just got such a um different
01:13:59
perspective on things like he can just
01:14:01
find things. He goes, "Oh, it's obvious
01:14:03
like
01:14:04
>> who the New Zealand of the year is." And
01:14:05
it was a guy who got pulled up for a
01:14:08
speeding ticket driving down the
01:14:09
northwestern motorway and he had no arms
01:14:11
and he was driving with his feet and
01:14:14
he's he was doing 140 ks an hour down
01:14:16
the northwestern motorway when he got
01:14:18
pulled over. So we presented the New
01:14:20
Zealander of the year award to him, you
01:14:22
know, like that's the way we were
01:14:24
thinking, you know, it's like finding
01:14:26
these different things and you know,
01:14:27
there's some really um really boundary
01:14:31
pushing. You couldn't do it today. You
01:14:33
can still do satire, but it just has to
01:14:35
be you have to understand that when it
01:14:38
does go out onto social media in black
01:14:39
and white and you see it written down,
01:14:42
it looks what it looks and what it is
01:14:44
saying is kind of two different things.
01:14:46
It would be very it would be dangerous,
01:14:47
but it can be done.
01:14:48
>> Oh, so you got to think of the optics of
01:14:50
how it look out of context.
01:14:52
>> Yeah. When it goes to the BSA, like we
01:14:54
went to the BSA few times with eating
01:14:56
media lunch, never had one complaint
01:14:58
upheld because the adjudicators said
01:15:01
this is this is satire. this is in the
01:15:03
name of this and the complainant doesn't
01:15:05
understand the context of what they were
01:15:07
saying and so we could always sit behind
01:15:09
satire but today in black and white when
01:15:11
you see it and you take it in a little
01:15:13
piece and you don't understand the
01:15:15
context of what's trying to be said uh
01:15:18
people could go crazy and you know it's
01:15:20
a shame because it's the 3% that make
01:15:22
the most noise to get the most attention
01:15:24
we've now got the other 97% in New
01:15:26
Zealand down in you know it's huge in it
01:15:29
university eating media lunch they all
01:15:31
love it cuz it's saying the truth. It's
01:15:33
say it's authentic.
01:15:35
>> Yeah. It's the the noisy minority. A and
01:15:37
often people that that that
01:15:39
>> don't even watch the show or may not
01:15:41
even be offended, but they're just like
01:15:42
virtue signalers or something. Yeah.
01:15:44
>> So, but the the show just looping back
01:15:46
to something you said before. So, the
01:15:47
show in some form could make a comeback.
01:15:50
>> Uh we Yeah. I I think that, you know, as
01:15:54
I was saying before, the split from
01:15:55
comedy to satire is one where I think
01:15:59
highlighting a lot of the absurdities in
01:16:01
New Zealand, in our society is ripe.
01:16:03
It's absolutely ripe. But I do think,
01:16:05
you know, you proceed with caution, but
01:16:08
and you definitely I always say it's
01:16:09
like an America's Cup course. You sail
01:16:11
right out to the point and you tack and
01:16:13
come back. We would be sailing more not
01:16:16
quite going out like eating me lunch
01:16:18
went out over the course and then turned
01:16:20
because they were always going a little
01:16:22
bit further and but you can still do it
01:16:25
like like society still deserves a voice
01:16:28
you know and so many people are down
01:16:30
rabbit holes and everyone's got their
01:16:32
thing that they know so much about now
01:16:34
and um it's it's got really concerning
01:16:37
to see people so sort of polarized and
01:16:39
so the media has changed so much.
01:16:42
There's so much to lampoon and so much
01:16:44
to look at. I I think yeah, it easily
01:16:46
can have its day.
01:16:47
>> Wow. Another one of your um amazing
01:16:51
shows is the Casceteers.
01:16:53
>> Yeah.
01:16:53
>> How how did that come about? Did did you
01:16:56
did you sort of meet the Tiffany's in in
01:16:58
passing and think this would be a good
01:17:00
idea for a show or did someone um like
01:17:02
you put them on your radar? How does
01:17:05
that come about? Um so we we we
01:17:07
basically were making the hoie but um so
01:17:10
Annabelle Lee is a wonderful producer
01:17:13
Mhei Forbes they kind of were leaving MI
01:17:17
television and they came to me and they
01:17:19
had three ideas and they had the hoie
01:17:23
um New Zealand wars and casketeers first
01:17:26
pitch ever where people have walked in
01:17:29
three ideas all commissioned and all
01:17:31
went forever. So the hoie is still
01:17:33
going. New Zealand wars are still going
01:17:36
and the casketeers are still going. This
01:17:38
is 10 years.
01:17:39
>> So So um Annabelle Belle said, "Look, I
01:17:44
know these people who are kind of like a
01:17:45
TV show, but they're for real. You you
01:17:47
should meet them." And so I went out and
01:17:50
I I didn't go out, but she filmed them.
01:17:52
And I talked to them, and they were they
01:17:54
were incredible. So Annabelle shot some
01:17:57
footage of them and I then went into a
01:18:00
suite and cut like a 4-minute promo one
01:18:02
weekend, gave it to TV and it and you
01:18:05
know it got buried for about a year.
01:18:07
>> Excuse the pun.
01:18:09
>> Yeah, that's a terrible pun. Oh god.
01:18:11
Yeah. Okay. Uh so I'm going to have to
01:18:13
watch that from here on in. But you know
01:18:15
there was sort of like they just didn't
01:18:18
want to show on Undertakers. That was
01:18:19
fair enough. Uh but I was trying to say
01:18:22
this is funny. This is really good. And
01:18:24
in the end, um, we managed to do a deal
01:18:26
with TVNZ that worked for everyone for
01:18:29
TVNZ. Uh, and we got the funding and the
01:18:33
rest is history. In fact, uh, I sort of
01:18:36
knew we're on to something because one
01:18:38
of the first calls we got after the
01:18:39
first episode was Paul Cassie saying, "I
01:18:42
want Jeremy to go out there and do a
01:18:44
show on Seven Sharp about them." And and
01:18:46
that's when I realized uh because Paul
01:18:48
has got a knack for knowing what's Kiwi
01:18:50
and what's going to get under what's
01:18:52
going to infiltrate society and he so he
01:18:55
went out there and I thought this is
01:18:57
going to be something really special and
01:18:59
the people you know the Tippines are are
01:19:01
awesome people. You know the media had a
01:19:02
crack at them about a year ago. Um and
01:19:05
>> problem not a problem with them though
01:19:06
with the staff member right? Yeah, it
01:19:07
was with a staff member and when the
01:19:09
full truth came out because you know
01:19:11
there was some some reporting that you
01:19:14
know had to be redacted uh and and the
01:19:17
reportage and and the company did redact
01:19:19
and and acted responsibly but it just
01:19:22
gave them the ability to assure people
01:19:24
that this was a a lone wolf operator and
01:19:27
that they do have a fantastic company
01:19:29
which they do. My mom died last year. Of
01:19:32
course, the casketeers, my mom had
01:19:33
insisted, Francis and you know, Ky going
01:19:37
to bury me. Don't you have anyone else?
01:19:38
So, of course, the moment my mom Heather
01:19:40
died, you know, I rang the casketeers
01:19:42
and they did a wonderful job. And so, of
01:19:45
course, they did, you know, and because
01:19:46
it got such heart, you know, that's what
01:19:48
everyone loved, you know.
01:19:49
>> Yeah.
01:19:50
>> It was actually um I completely missed
01:19:52
the show. I I think it must have been
01:19:54
broadcast on Netflix in Australia and my
01:19:56
sister in Perth, she was like, "Oh my
01:19:58
god, you've got to watch the Casceteers
01:19:59
and I watched it on TV and Z Plus, but
01:20:02
um yeah, I thought that was
01:20:03
interesting."
01:20:04
>> Yeah. Well, it's a beautiful combination
01:20:05
of character, but also culture and
01:20:08
society and so and language. So, it sort
01:20:10
of tied everything in and it taught us,
01:20:12
you know, like obviously as Pakiha, you
01:20:15
know, our version of death and death
01:20:17
ritual is quite sort of it is quite
01:20:19
Scottish really. It's sort of like Yeah.
01:20:21
Whereas like you know there's a
01:20:23
celebration aspect. So for I think um
01:20:25
Pak New Zealand were able to see that
01:20:27
you know death is part of a process and
01:20:29
it it you don't have to be so scared you
01:20:31
know of these things and so it sort of
01:20:33
elevated people and and it was very
01:20:35
educational but what wonderful teachers
01:20:38
and they're off in a few weeks off
01:20:40
overseas doing another series. So we
01:20:42
switched them out from we'd sort of done
01:20:44
enough leaf blower and buried enough
01:20:46
people in enough cultural learnings and
01:20:48
TV and Zed were fantastic. They said,
01:20:49
"What else can we do?" And we were like,
01:20:51
"Well, they can go on the road and look
01:20:53
at um sort of life and death on the
01:20:55
road." And so they've already been and
01:20:57
done one series which is hugely
01:20:59
successful. They're about to do another
01:21:01
series we're about to shoot. So it's a
01:21:03
it's a it's a good one.
01:21:05
>> Yeah. And a lot of fun.
01:21:07
>> Um these stories are great. By the way,
01:21:09
I've got like a massive list of these
01:21:11
shows, but unfortunately we got a
01:21:12
limited time. But oh, another one. Who
01:21:14
wants to be a millionaire? Um, there's a
01:21:17
rumor I heard that you you didn't even
01:21:19
have a million dollars to give away as
01:21:20
prize money.
01:21:22
>> Well, I was, you know, I said I was a
01:21:24
bit dreamy earlier on in the interview.
01:21:26
I was sort of a bit like a little bit
01:21:28
vague in the producing fronts on the
01:21:30
insurance and what we're covered for
01:21:32
like and we did we did give away I think
01:21:36
we gave away 250,000.
01:21:38
It it was all through insurers basically
01:21:40
and where we were covered. And so um I
01:21:44
uh there was there was gray area. There
01:21:47
was gray area when when I was in
01:21:48
Australia. I think I went gray. I
01:21:50
remember I was walking ironically I was
01:21:52
walking past a hotel in the main street
01:21:54
called the Great Southern Hotel which uh
01:21:57
same name as the company. I remember TV
01:21:59
and said and I said to them, "Yeah, but
01:22:00
you know if we got to this point, you
01:22:03
know, you you have agreed you' put in
01:22:05
that amount." It was like, "No, no, no.
01:22:06
We'd only do it once and we'd already
01:22:08
given away." And I was I was like,
01:22:10
"Yeah, but our insurers say this." And
01:22:11
it all got a little bit uh but that's
01:22:14
the risk you take, you know, like um
01:22:16
it's high-risisk business.
01:22:18
>> That's terrifying.
01:22:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we we we got away,
01:22:23
you know, Husking was incredible. I I
01:22:25
think, you know, he's sort of it's a bit
01:22:28
sad with Mike because, you know, he's
01:22:31
he's so good on radio, but he was so
01:22:34
good on television. Like he's he was the
01:22:37
master,
01:22:37
>> you know. He he he came in and did that
01:22:39
show just in a blink and he was as good
01:22:41
as the Australian host who'd been doing
01:22:43
it for a decade and all the Australians
01:22:45
said that and he did it on the first
01:22:47
episode.
01:22:47
>> Oh, he's a phenomenal broadcaster. Yeah.
01:22:49
The radio stuff you're talking about in
01:22:50
t in terms of TV, he did breakfast for a
01:22:53
while and he did seven sharp. Why do why
01:22:55
do you say it's a bit sad with him?
01:22:56
>> Well, he's not on TV.
01:22:57
>> Oh, right, right, right.
01:22:59
>> Yeah. like I just wish uh there was
01:23:01
something you know to get his viewpoint
01:23:03
across you know he's got he's got an
01:23:05
interesting viewpoint a lot of people
01:23:07
agree with it and he's got a lot to say
01:23:09
um but he doesn't need it you know he's
01:23:12
he's comfortable he's done really well
01:23:14
um but occasionally I'd like to
01:23:16
encourage him to push himself and maybe
01:23:18
consider you know giving something back
01:23:20
or giving a perspective that might help
01:23:23
uh the wider you know community that's
01:23:25
that's helped him become who he is
01:23:27
>> I wonder there there was um when he was
01:23:29
on seven sharp a few years ago, there
01:23:30
was um like this big change.org petition
01:23:33
to like to get him off TV. I wonder if
01:23:35
that had some sort of impact on him.
01:23:36
You'd probably never get him to admit
01:23:38
it. Um but I remember it felt really
01:23:40
really mean and personal at the time.
01:23:42
>> Yeah,
01:23:42
>> I think he subscribes to the don't let
01:23:44
the bastards get you down uh theory. I
01:23:47
think he he lives he lives a really uh
01:23:50
enjoyable life and I think uh it doesn't
01:23:52
bother him too much
01:23:53
>> and he's actually um he's actually like
01:23:55
yeah super hardworking, super positive,
01:23:58
super optimistic, super enthusiastic.
01:24:00
>> Yeah, great guy.
01:24:01
>> Yeah.
01:24:02
>> Um how do you feel about the uh current
01:24:05
state of media and in particular TV in
01:24:07
New Zealand? Um well it's obviously in a
01:24:10
huge change cycle you know and it's less
01:24:13
of a pivot and more of a kind of a
01:24:15
complete reconstruction of how the
01:24:16
fundamentals operate and that's mainly
01:24:19
because like everything what we're doing
01:24:20
it's about eyeballs and we're all
01:24:21
competing for eyeballs. Eyeballs have
01:24:23
moved. They've moved on to YouTube.
01:24:24
They've moved on to streaming services.
01:24:26
Traditional networks have got less money
01:24:28
because there's less people watching. So
01:24:30
advertisers pay less and they're taking
01:24:32
their money elsewhere. you know, an
01:24:34
advertiser now can target something like
01:24:36
if they want a 16-year-old boy in Mangry
01:24:38
who wants to buy a bike somewhere within
01:24:41
an algorithm, you will be able to find
01:24:43
an advertising campaign uh on social
01:24:46
media that can get to that boy.
01:24:47
Television can't do that. It just sort
01:24:49
of blasted out everywhere. So,
01:24:50
obviously, we've got that challenge and
01:24:52
then at the same time, we've got AI
01:24:53
colliding with this change. So, it's how
01:24:56
you adapt to AI and and the non-humanity
01:24:59
of that. So multiple challenges but the
01:25:02
New Zealand government to be honest has
01:25:04
been really supportive and understands
01:25:05
that we have to grow the industry. you
01:25:07
know, we have, you know, uh, wool, meat,
01:25:09
fish, timber, all diesel, all put in
01:25:12
ships, sent overseas, carbon toxic.
01:25:14
People in Europe don't want to touch it
01:25:16
because it's come so far. We still sell
01:25:20
a lot, but that's not our growth. Like
01:25:22
our industry, $3.5 billion, can grow. We
01:25:25
think, you know, it can be a $5 billion
01:25:27
industry and we send it down a fiber
01:25:28
optic cable. So, my view is that New
01:25:30
Zealand can become a film set. You know,
01:25:33
it employs so many people and generates
01:25:35
so much money. So we have got good
01:25:37
government support New Zealand air film
01:25:39
commission government itself to grow it
01:25:41
to make it bigger because we need
01:25:42
alternative industries and Rod talked
01:25:44
about this
01:25:45
>> you know we can't be just putting up
01:25:47
forests that destroy our towns and you
01:25:50
know and having uh milk powder that's
01:25:53
got beef and all of that you involved in
01:25:56
in in the manufacturing of it when we
01:25:59
can use our IP and our brains that's our
01:26:01
future. So I believe optimistically that
01:26:04
once all of this settles down again, AI
01:26:06
is going to disrupt a lot, but there's
01:26:08
definitely some blocks there in terms of
01:26:10
what humans want to see, um, we're going
01:26:13
to see networks settle into more of a a
01:26:16
new normal and, uh, away we go. So I
01:26:20
remain optimistic.
01:26:21
>> Yeah. Yeah, you you are you're a
01:26:23
relentless optimist. Um, can AI be a
01:26:25
good thing in your industry?
01:26:26
>> It's useful. uh but uh you know I think
01:26:30
people are probably people need to be
01:26:32
reassured that there are controls and
01:26:34
systems in place but it's the people
01:26:36
themselves that are going to decide you
01:26:38
know like there was that Tilly Norwood
01:26:40
the the synthetic actor was launched
01:26:42
last year to the world we're going to
01:26:43
have a synthetic actor and these people
01:26:45
thought they're the smartest people in
01:26:46
the world and they're going to get an
01:26:48
agent in America and she's going to star
01:26:50
in a movie well she got crushed man all
01:26:53
of the slop that is on social media and
01:26:56
coming out on streams
01:26:58
The new generation, Gen Alpha, is about
01:27:01
authenticity.
01:27:03
And thank God for them. They're going, I
01:27:06
want real. I don't want to see Benny,
01:27:07
you know, in LA beside a swimming pool
01:27:09
with an umbrella. I want to see on the
01:27:11
couch telling me exactly how she feels
01:27:13
at the moment. That's what I That's
01:27:14
authenticity. And all the artists are
01:27:17
getting into it. So now when you come up
01:27:18
with a synthetic character, it's
01:27:20
absolutely not going to work. They said
01:27:23
they're going to give it an agent. The
01:27:24
agencies ran from it. So AI is going to
01:27:27
help us to be more efficient. But human
01:27:30
stories, human actors are always are
01:27:33
going to be core, you know, because I
01:27:35
think AI could become a genre within
01:27:37
like horror, that's an AI movie. But
01:27:40
when you want to go to a movie and you
01:27:41
want to see an actor like a Robert
01:27:43
Downey Jr. and you go there and you
01:27:45
know, I know his journey. I know he is
01:27:46
good and then he was bad and then he's
01:27:48
really naughty and then he did this and
01:27:50
now he's back and he looks good and you
01:27:52
know, I'm part of him. He's part of he's
01:27:55
lived and he's telling me a human story.
01:27:57
AI doesn't have a heart, you know, it's
01:27:59
scanning and skimming everything that's
01:28:01
gone before, you know, so it's not real.
01:28:04
And so, you know, we we still believe
01:28:07
that humans are going to are going to be
01:28:09
there even though it's going to be more
01:28:11
cost effective and there's going to be
01:28:12
some advantages, it's still about the
01:28:14
heart and soul.
01:28:14
>> Yeah, I love that. That's such a great
01:28:16
take. If you could commission one last
01:28:18
show with no ratings pressure and a big
01:28:20
budget, what would you make?
01:28:23
Uh
01:28:25
uh yeah that that's interesting. Like I
01:28:28
would I'd probably just want to make you
01:28:30
know like a plurabus you know a massive
01:28:33
high-end show in New Zealand like you
01:28:36
know maybe you know something like the
01:28:38
new America but be given the money to
01:28:40
actually make it uh the way that shows
01:28:43
like I've just watched Night Manager
01:28:44
which Amazon put a lot of money into.
01:28:46
It's just incredible. Um they the Jackal
01:28:49
was you know all around the world. I'
01:28:52
I'd just want to be given uh I'd be
01:28:54
happy with, you know, sort of 40 million
01:28:57
an episode and eight episodes. It's
01:29:00
possible.
01:29:00
>> Is it is that
01:29:01
>> Yeah, we could do that. You know, I I
01:29:03
believe we
01:29:04
>> That sounds like a lot like an
01:29:06
unfathomable amount of money.
01:29:07
>> Yeah. It disappears quick.
01:29:09
>> Does it Does it really?
01:29:10
>> Yeah. Doesn't matter how much you got.
01:29:12
It doesn't matter. Like, you know,
01:29:13
there's major movies in New Zealand that
01:29:15
come here. And uh they'll always turn
01:29:18
around and say, "We haven't got enough
01:29:19
money." even though they might have two
01:29:20
or 30 hundred million. There's never
01:29:22
enough money. They they always have to
01:29:23
take the water cooler away and cut back
01:29:25
on musli bars. So, it's just it's just a
01:29:29
bizarre thing. But, you know, at the
01:29:30
moment, we play in the, you know, 10 20
01:29:33
million game. If we can start bringing
01:29:36
bigger dramas, then it's going to help
01:29:38
everyone in New Zealand because it
01:29:40
stimulates so many jobs and and so much
01:29:43
um so much tax basically. It's good for
01:29:45
us.
01:29:46
>> When are you at your happiest? either
01:29:48
either at work or out of work. Yeah.
01:29:51
When when are you peak happiness?
01:29:52
>> Leanne would say it's when I'm on my
01:29:54
ride on listening to a podcast. So, I
01:29:56
mean, we've got, you know, I we mow
01:29:58
about uh 10 acres of of grass land on
01:30:02
our place down there. So, I love being
01:30:04
in Queenstown, having the barbecue on.
01:30:07
Uh you know, it's really beautiful down
01:30:09
there. It's quiet and um just hanging
01:30:12
out with mates. you know, obviously, you
01:30:14
know, friendship and companionship's
01:30:16
also very important to your, you know,
01:30:19
your life. Uh, freedom and purpose, they
01:30:21
say, are the two keys. I think that's
01:30:23
something out of some text somewhere,
01:30:25
Hinduism or something. But, uh, I think
01:30:28
for me, you know, being down in
01:30:30
Queenstown, being on the deck, cooking a
01:30:33
barbecue, watching the cricket, chatting
01:30:35
to Leanne, and just um doing simple
01:30:38
things. Yeah. As long as we win the
01:30:40
cricket, of course.
01:30:42
Well, you Yeah, you you control what you
01:30:44
can. Um, yeah, Leanne, you've mentioned
01:30:46
her a few times. Lean Malcolm, very well
01:30:48
known and respected New Zealand
01:30:49
journalist. That's been a successful
01:30:50
partnership. Hey, you guys have been
01:30:51
going a long time.
01:30:53
>> Yeah, we have.
01:30:53
>> Longer than Mythbusters.
01:30:54
>> Yeah. Longer than Yeah. Well, that's
01:30:56
that's ironic, but no, Le's like
01:30:58
reinvented herself into a musician and
01:31:00
she's called Gina Malcolm and she's
01:31:02
released an album that's um been really
01:31:04
positively reviewed internationally. Um
01:31:07
and uh we've got a recording studio on
01:31:10
our property now and uh but she records
01:31:13
um uh at another uh recording studio in
01:31:16
the South Island and um she's recorded
01:31:19
some really good music. So she's having
01:31:20
a great time doing that and uh yeah
01:31:23
she's she's wonderful broadcaster like
01:31:26
you know she was one of the best when
01:31:27
she was news reading
01:31:28
>> incredible
01:31:29
>> and um you know she she's just you know
01:31:33
bit bit of a chameleon is has changed
01:31:35
and she's always her family is very
01:31:37
musical Greg Malcolm her brother's
01:31:39
acknowledged New Zealand artist and um
01:31:41
you know I'm into music as well my son's
01:31:43
into music he he's drum and bass and he
01:31:46
tours around New Zealand plays the
01:31:48
festivals um played a festival at the
01:31:50
weekend. Um, so he's he's quite
01:31:53
successful as well. So music's our our
01:31:55
big thing in our family. That's what
01:31:57
keeps us all together.
01:31:58
>> At 61 years old, have you got your head
01:32:00
around drum and bass?
01:32:01
>> Uh, yeah. Yeah. Appreciation for it.
01:32:04
>> Drum and bass, you know, it's more like
01:32:06
jungle and and you know, which is more
01:32:08
like reggae. So it has, you know,
01:32:10
there's there's trance and hardcore and
01:32:12
beats per minute and really intense drum
01:32:14
and bass. There's c certain aspects of
01:32:16
it that that are accessible. And so he's
01:32:19
not really in that just full-on manta uh
01:32:23
kind of like thing. And we've we've met
01:32:25
the whole drum and bass community
01:32:26
globally like you know we've had the
01:32:28
founder of drum and bass whose best
01:32:30
mates were the stone roses stay with us.
01:32:32
So we've met the guys who tour and uh
01:32:35
we've met Dutch drum and bass all of
01:32:37
them have come and stayed with us. And
01:32:39
the one thing I've learned is that there
01:32:41
was a there was a drama in New Zealand
01:32:42
recently where they had these drum and
01:32:44
bass guys. They were involved in a
01:32:46
murder plot. It was one of these local
01:32:47
things and the writer wrote the drum and
01:32:49
bass guys and they all had tattoos and
01:32:51
they're driving a valiant. They look
01:32:53
like heavy metlers and I was like this
01:32:56
person has never met a drum and bass
01:32:58
exponent in their life but they should
01:33:01
have because drum and bass people are
01:33:03
you know they're not tattooed they're
01:33:05
nerdy. They wear glasses. They're quite
01:33:07
conservative. They might even wear
01:33:09
almost a rotten gun shirt. like they're
01:33:11
they're actually quite weirdly
01:33:14
conservative people in a way who make
01:33:16
these huge sounds globally. They don't
01:33:18
want to wear a rotten gunship, but
01:33:20
they're they're not that. So, you know,
01:33:24
it's quite fun. So, we meet, you know,
01:33:26
through Joel doing his um his
01:33:28
altercation through that we just meet
01:33:30
all these incredible musicians. Yeah.
01:33:32
So,
01:33:32
>> you being at a venue when some hardcore
01:33:35
drum and bass is being played, I don't
01:33:36
know what your cardiologist would say
01:33:37
about that.
01:33:38
>> Yeah. No, it's No, I've talked to Joel
01:33:40
about the beats per minute. He's he's
01:33:42
he's very on to that. I think I can't I
01:33:44
think drum base 180. Yeah. Beats per
01:33:47
minute. But then jungle drops down. So,
01:33:49
>> yeah. But, uh, you know, he played to 2
01:33:52
and a half thousand people like right in
01:33:54
Paradise at the weekend. I mean, it was
01:33:56
the most stunning thing you could ever
01:33:58
see down south. They basically had it in
01:34:00
the woods way out the back of Paradise.
01:34:02
So, this is south of Gleni. 2 and a half
01:34:04
thousand people went to and they lit all
01:34:06
the trees and it was a full moon. and
01:34:08
this music in the middle of the night,
01:34:09
you know, um it was certainly a night. I
01:34:12
think they had a psychedelic tent there,
01:34:14
uh rehab tent, so they were responsible,
01:34:16
but it looked like a hell of a time. I
01:34:19
got to admit. Yeah.
01:34:20
>> You're so proud. E I can tell like when
01:34:22
you talk about your wife's achievements
01:34:23
and your kids achievements. What's um
01:34:25
what would you say your best and worst
01:34:26
habits are?
01:34:28
Uh definitely too much time being
01:34:30
inquisitive and online, you know, like
01:34:32
scrolling and like I've got no social
01:34:35
media, so I so that's probably why I do
01:34:37
sit anonymous. I I I don't post
01:34:39
anything. Um but, you know, I you know,
01:34:43
I'm always I'm always inquisitive about
01:34:45
finding out stuff cuz you can use it in
01:34:47
writing. It's where you find ideas. So,
01:34:49
too much of that. Uh, you know, not
01:34:51
enough time probably out just walking
01:34:53
and refreshing your brain and making it
01:34:55
cleansing it. You know, exercise is
01:34:57
good. Leanne made me go and swim, you
01:34:58
know, 20 laps the other day and,
01:35:01
>> you know, she's she's really healthy and
01:35:02
she plays tennis and walks and does all
01:35:05
this good stuff. So, it's it's it's
01:35:07
good. It's good for me. Yeah.
01:35:09
>> Yeah.
01:35:10
>> Yeah. Is it that bad a habit? I I feel
01:35:12
like that maybe stem from your
01:35:13
journalism roots in a way.
01:35:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. I yeah I think well
01:35:17
apparently my iPhone says I spend too
01:35:19
much time on it. It's it apparently
01:35:21
somewhere in there it says you've been
01:35:22
on it for this amount of time you know
01:35:24
get a counselor. Oh, we've got a
01:35:26
counselor online, you know. So, hold on.
01:35:28
I'm trapped in this loop now. This like
01:35:30
tech loop. But, you know, chat's been is
01:35:33
is a great tool that actually speeds
01:35:35
things up for me, you know, it's such a
01:35:37
such an awesome tool.
01:35:39
>> GPT. Yeah.
01:35:40
>> Do you just use it as like a glorified
01:35:41
Google or
01:35:42
>> Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, same.
01:35:44
>> Don't I don't use it like obviously, you
01:35:45
know, we we're pretty much, you know,
01:35:47
we've pretty much prohibited ourselves
01:35:49
from using it in a creative space
01:35:50
because it's not creative. It's just
01:35:53
skimming what other people did in the
01:35:54
past. So, and it's not it's not real.
01:35:56
So, you know, in terms of being a
01:35:58
creative, it's it's it's a it can assist
01:36:01
in terms of writing sort of not it can
01:36:04
assist in terms of researching and
01:36:07
telling you of things, but then you
01:36:10
write like everything that comes out of
01:36:11
Great Southern, we have a human stamp
01:36:13
that we put on our projects in the
01:36:14
bottom corner. Human stamp generated by
01:36:16
humans. Like too many humans now are
01:36:18
just sending [ __ ] out that's written by
01:36:20
AI. In fact, I heard of someone recently
01:36:22
who sent someone else an email applying
01:36:24
for a job and at the bottom of the
01:36:25
application they it had in there,
01:36:28
>> do you like this version? I could next
01:36:31
um modify it and tell the employer they
01:36:33
left that on the bottom. You know that
01:36:36
>> oh my god that's so dumb.
01:36:37
>> Yeah, it's the dumbest thing ever. Like
01:36:39
right back going mate uh to actually
01:36:43
read what chat's written like. So um
01:36:47
yeah, but what's your question? What's
01:36:48
the best things and worst things? But
01:36:50
proud of Yeah.
01:36:52
>> Yeah.
01:36:52
>> Do you have any regrets?
01:36:54
>> I'll probably It does take up a lot of
01:36:57
time, you know, like and I probably
01:36:58
work.
01:36:59
>> Yeah. Like, you know, it's seven days a
01:37:01
week because there's always there
01:37:03
generally there's always a problem and
01:37:04
as a producer, not a writer, you're
01:37:07
always trying to resolve something, you
01:37:08
know, it just comes out of the blue. It
01:37:10
will just be and it's constant two or
01:37:12
three things a day in general where but
01:37:15
because I'm older now and I've seen it
01:37:17
before I can reassure the younger people
01:37:19
don't panic you know it's okay I've seen
01:37:21
this before we can solve this and you
01:37:22
know it's always through good
01:37:23
communication um so in terms of regrets
01:37:27
yeah I a I wanted to go back to Tanzania
01:37:30
and I haven't been back uh you know I'd
01:37:32
like to travel a little bit more um and
01:37:34
and see some amazing sort of I I do like
01:37:37
going to dangerous weird places you know
01:37:39
like so I've got some travel plans there
01:37:42
and um but otherwise no I I I am really
01:37:46
proud of of what we've achieved and in
01:37:48
particular our people at Great Southern.
01:37:50
So yeah,
01:37:51
>> you're never going to retire, are you?
01:37:53
>> No, no, not retire because it's that
01:37:56
sort of like stop thinking like I'll get
01:37:59
myself into a place where you know it
01:38:01
suits me more as I get older. Uh so that
01:38:04
I'm doing slightly less. But if you look
01:38:05
at John Barnett, you know, amazing guy,
01:38:08
you know, tragically died last year and
01:38:10
missed by the entire industry. But John
01:38:12
was still he still had massive projects.
01:38:14
He just shot Dark City.
01:38:16
>> John had big projects. He was still
01:38:18
going and he was 78 because
01:38:20
>> you're part of the community. So it's
01:38:22
just scale. But, you know, I'm always
01:38:25
thinking of ideas and going, is that an
01:38:26
idea? Is that a concept? Could I use
01:38:28
that? You know, like, you know, I hear
01:38:30
things like I heard a phrase recently
01:38:32
someone everyone was going on about
01:38:34
Seven Sisters, which is a suburb in, you
01:38:37
know, London. And, you know, my brain's
01:38:39
like, "That's a good name." Seven
01:38:40
Sisters is a good name. You know, like
01:38:42
my brain works like that. I'm going I
01:38:44
can see that on a tile. And these days
01:38:46
we're designing for tiles. And a tile
01:38:48
is, you know, on Netflix, the tile is
01:38:50
just the little icon you click on. You
01:38:52
have to be able to sell your show, its
01:38:54
name, and its concept on that one tile.
01:38:56
Now, that's how distilled our creative
01:38:59
process is now. You have to have it
01:39:01
right there. And so, I'm always trying
01:39:03
to think of the next idea.
01:39:05
>> Yeah. And there's that saying, don't
01:39:06
judge a book by its cover, but um the
01:39:07
thumbnail is the complete opposite of
01:39:10
that. Thumbnail is everything.
01:39:11
>> It's everything. You know, like when
01:39:13
you're going through your Netflix
01:39:14
options for the night, you know, you
01:39:15
kind of the thumbnail is really,
01:39:17
>> you know, you'll stop and it'll be an
01:39:19
actor or name or you can just sense a
01:39:21
genre. So, that's a real skill getting
01:39:24
that right. And so we we now really try
01:39:26
and distill our shows down and go what
01:39:28
is its absolute essence like down to
01:39:32
three-word log line and its title and
01:39:34
the visuals. You know what is our what's
01:39:37
the pitch? Because if you can't go into
01:39:38
a network and go it is just this and you
01:39:41
go let me explain it. It's a long story.
01:39:43
They just go glass over. You've got to
01:39:46
be able to go bang. It's this. And then
01:39:48
of course, you know, in this modern day
01:39:49
and age, the other thing is, you know,
01:39:51
you need the script, you need the
01:39:52
writer, you need the screen, you need
01:39:53
the actors, and then you need the
01:39:55
showrunner as well. So, you got to bring
01:39:57
in the director, the actors, the script.
01:39:59
You got to have it really well packaged
01:40:01
now with drama. So,
01:40:03
>> [ __ ] you've done so much and you've
01:40:04
still got so much to give. Um, last
01:40:06
question, Phil Smith, are you proud of
01:40:08
yourself?
01:40:09
>> Yeah, I guess I am. like you know and I
01:40:11
think even if someone like Cass is
01:40:13
watching I've always sort of uh you know
01:40:17
to sell you you have to give people
01:40:19
confidence in you so you have to sell
01:40:21
yourself and and a lot of young people
01:40:23
today don't sell themselves so I'm proud
01:40:25
to say you know things like yeah okay
01:40:28
I've won a lot of TV awards or you know
01:40:30
when we go internationally people have
01:40:32
to have faith that you're going to um
01:40:35
deliver for them so you have you have to
01:40:37
learn to sell yourself if you're not
01:40:38
going to sell yourself no one else will.
01:40:41
So, yes, I'm proud to tell people that
01:40:43
I've been successful. I don't do it on a
01:40:45
big sort of pariting stage and go on
01:40:49
social media and say it all, but I'm
01:40:50
proud of our achievements. I'm proud of
01:40:52
my my family, and that's pretty much
01:40:54
really what you want in life. And yeah,
01:40:57
no regrets.
01:40:58
>> This has been a great episode. I feel
01:41:00
like it's um it's a border collie I've
01:41:02
met today.
01:41:02
>> Oh, all right. That's nice, Dom. Yeah.
01:41:05
No, you've had so many incredible
01:41:07
guests. Really good. like and and this
01:41:10
is the beauty of this format. You can,
01:41:12
you know, you can talk and you can share
01:41:13
and tell these stories and and actually
01:41:16
get to the essence and get something out
01:41:17
of it.
01:41:18
>> You know, it's well done.
01:41:20
>> Yeah. Well, you're you're a great mate
01:41:21
and um now a great podcast guest and
01:41:23
it's been wonderful to connect with you
01:41:24
in front of the microphones today.
01:41:26
>> Yeah. Thank you.
01:41:27
>> Cheers.
