00:00:00
Lori, I don't know if if there was
00:00:01
embellishment to these stories, but he
00:00:03
he he said that Jonah was having
00:00:05
>> You really think Lori's an embellisher?
00:00:07
And another time he came in, he came in
00:00:09
and he uh I was having breakfast. Oh,
00:00:11
no. After training, he had a meeting and
00:00:13
he goes, "You don't you want to play?
00:00:16
You know, aren't you into this?" I was
00:00:17
going, "Fuck." And he goes, "I'll be up
00:00:18
in my room." This is after training
00:00:20
before we went down for lunch. He goes,
00:00:22
"I'll be up in my room." He goes, "If
00:00:24
you want to if you want me to take you
00:00:25
out of that team," he goes, "You come up
00:00:27
and fucking," you know. So, of course, I
00:00:30
never went up to town. I went down, had
00:00:32
lunch and stuff. He walks in and he
00:00:33
leans on the table, gets right in my
00:00:35
face, and he goes, "I was waiting. You
00:00:38
know, you didn't come up and see me."
00:00:40
And I was going, "Fuck." Took all my
00:00:42
willpower not to [ __ ] And I wanted to
00:00:44
smack him.
00:00:46
>> Oh, god. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:48
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:50
there's a top performance in New
00:00:51
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:53
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:55
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:57
hollow one in too.
00:01:00
Oh,
00:01:00
>> he did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:02
performance going?
00:01:03
>> Top tier.
00:01:04
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here
00:01:06
you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:07
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:09
investments. Get in here Finn.
00:01:11
>> Maximize Generate. Putting performance
00:01:14
first.
00:01:15
>> Frank Buntz, welcome to my podcast.
00:01:17
>> Thank you. Thanks, Dom.
00:01:18
>> Hey, it's great to connect Frank B. uh
00:01:21
55 tests including the 1995 Rugby World
00:01:24
Cup final, 93 British and Irish Lion
00:01:27
Series, the first two Tri Nations
00:01:29
tournaments, and that historic series
00:01:31
win over South Africa in South Africa in
00:01:33
1996. Did I miss anything?
00:01:37
um all my club years
00:01:40
I um I often say to people that um you
00:01:43
know I was lucky when going through
00:01:44
there because you know I cross paths
00:01:46
with some of the great you know some
00:01:48
some people that can be um you know
00:01:50
they're in the conversation for greatest
00:01:52
all black ever
00:01:54
>> you know in their positions and this
00:01:55
stuff so like Michael Jones like like
00:01:58
Jonah you know like um Jeff Wilson like
00:02:01
Andrew Burton's like um Zenzan Brookke
00:02:04
like you know so many so many names and
00:02:08
um and I think you know I think a lot of
00:02:10
them um are in that conversation. I
00:02:13
think so.
00:02:14
>> I I actually spoke to um the all black
00:02:16
coach that's so um so you played your
00:02:18
first rugby world cup for Samoa and um
00:02:20
and we'll get into that. I've actually
00:02:22
had the guy that shoulder tabbed you for
00:02:24
um Sir Brian Williams. I've had him on
00:02:26
the podcast legion. Um, so you you were
00:02:29
getting quite old at that point and then
00:02:31
you played so well in that rugby world
00:02:32
cup that Lori Mains then got you for the
00:02:34
All Blacks.
00:02:35
>> So you played one World Cup for some,
00:02:37
one World Cup for the All Blacks. I
00:02:38
spoke to Lori yesterday at his home in
00:02:40
Queenstown for like 20 minutes.
00:02:42
>> He he um man, he gave me so much intel
00:02:45
which I'll no doubt bring up through
00:02:46
this conversation, but you mentioned
00:02:47
Jonah before and he just talked about
00:02:49
the pivotal role you had in Jonah's
00:02:51
success, you and Eric Rush, because he
00:02:53
said he really looked up to you guys. So
00:02:55
he would often use you guys as um as
00:02:58
sort of the middleman
00:02:59
>> to get messaging to Jonah.
00:03:01
>> Yeah, I think we were the buffers and
00:03:03
you know to be fair it was it was rushy
00:03:05
really. Um cuz in the earlier years
00:03:08
before um Jonah burst onto the scene. Um
00:03:12
so Eric had come to us and just said and
00:03:14
you know just a group of friends and
00:03:15
stuff and he goes oh I heard about this
00:03:17
guy Jonah Jonah Lman young fell you know
00:03:20
um at school and that and uh he goes oh
00:03:23
you know he's heard all this stuff about
00:03:24
him. He goes I'm thinking of taking him
00:03:26
overseas cuz you know back then you
00:03:28
could go and play sevens tournaments all
00:03:29
over the world and and um
00:03:32
>> I I think that's where a lot of people
00:03:34
you know found their way. And uh so
00:03:36
Rashi said I'm going to take him I think
00:03:37
he took him to um did you go to Hong
00:03:40
Kong? Singapore I think maybe Singapore
00:03:42
and then uh up to the islands went to um
00:03:44
you know Raro and stuff like that and
00:03:47
and he came back and he was just you
00:03:49
know just the way he spoke about Jonah
00:03:51
and you know they had a connection from
00:03:53
from all of that and and Rushy looked
00:03:55
after him. So, um, when he came into the
00:03:58
All Blacks, when he started making his
00:04:00
way, you know, it it was mainly Rushy,
00:04:03
but, um, you know, but, uh, there was a
00:04:06
group of us, myself and Walter and Glenn
00:04:08
Osborne, you know, the Brown brothers,
00:04:10
they, you know, they they were calling
00:04:12
everyone, but he was just comfortable,
00:04:13
you know, Jonah was just comfortable
00:04:15
with a group of people that, you know,
00:04:17
would were just kind of like him. Um,
00:04:20
you know, had grown up like him, had
00:04:22
experiences like he did and stuff like
00:04:24
that. and uh you know we looked after
00:04:25
him so
00:04:27
>> yeah this is going to be a fun chat. Do
00:04:29
you do you enjoy like reminiscing or are
00:04:30
you sort of in the now? Yeah.
00:04:32
>> Oh um a bit of both actually. But no I
00:04:35
do I do enjoy reminiscing.
00:04:37
>> Lori I don't know if if there was
00:04:39
embellishment to these stories but he he
00:04:41
he said that Jonah was having
00:04:42
>> You really think Lori's an embellisher?
00:04:45
>> Actually I've got I've got I got a
00:04:46
little bit of the conversation. I'll
00:04:47
I'll play it to you. Like he's he was he
00:04:49
said really nice things about you. Uh,
00:04:53
hang on. Where's the sound here?
00:04:58
Here we go.
00:04:58
>> So, he's a professional.
00:05:00
>> One of the great respectful things about
00:05:03
Frank was he could take a tonging up and
00:05:07
then two minutes later he was over it
00:05:09
and he was back to doing his job and
00:05:11
doing his job better because he had had
00:05:12
a stir up.
00:05:13
>> Yeah.
00:05:14
>> Oh, he's a real man. Believe me. Uh if
00:05:17
you had 15 Frank Bunes in a team, you'd
00:05:20
never ever lose. For me, I'm I'm very
00:05:24
reluctant to say who was best because
00:05:26
times in rugby, the game was played
00:05:29
differently. But he's right up there
00:05:30
with Bill Davis, Bruce Robertson, and
00:05:33
Joe Stanley. Uh who who who were all
00:05:36
blacks when I was uh you know, old
00:05:39
enough to to appreciate them.
00:05:42
>> Yeah.
00:05:42
>> One of the great respect.
00:05:44
>> Yeah. See,
00:05:45
>> nice words, eh? They are nice words.
00:05:47
Yeah.
00:05:48
>> Was Was he good at giving you a tongue
00:05:49
lashing?
00:05:50
>> Oh, he Jeez, he had heard it all. Um,
00:05:53
how's he What's it like with swearing?
00:05:56
>> Anything goes.
00:05:58
>> Uh, he um what did he I think one of the
00:06:02
things so we were playing in Scotland
00:06:04
and um it was a it wasn't a test. It was
00:06:06
a midweek game and then I get Doc May
00:06:08
who comes on the field and he goes um
00:06:12
Lori said uh Lori said if you don't stop
00:06:15
[ __ ] around you know get off if
00:06:17
you're not going to stop [ __ ] around.
00:06:19
I'm saying what what he goes oh he's
00:06:21
he's pissed off. I was going [ __ ]
00:06:22
[ __ ] you know and uh it went on and
00:06:25
on and on and I think in those they
00:06:27
didn't have the walkie-talkies back then
00:06:28
but um you know they Lori was ringing
00:06:31
Doc on his telephone and and he goes and
00:06:34
it just went backwards and forwards for
00:06:35
a little bit. I never I never went off
00:06:37
but um after the game finished and we
00:06:39
won
00:06:40
>> and after the game finished I walk off
00:06:42
and Doc goes better watch out you know
00:06:44
Lor's not happy. I was going [ __ ] you
00:06:46
know Lor's not happy and so uh we just
00:06:49
carry on. I go in the shower and I'm
00:06:51
having a shower just, you know, and then
00:06:53
I turn around and Lori's standing there
00:06:55
was like and he looks at me and he goes,
00:06:58
"If I if I bought my gun today, I would
00:07:00
have [ __ ] shot you, you cunt."
00:07:04
And I was going, "So,
00:07:08
uh, that was one of them." And then he
00:07:12
comes in. So, you know, it was like,
00:07:14
"Oh, yeah." and he walks out and then um
00:07:17
we uh I think we're having a team
00:07:19
meeting was I don't know can't remember
00:07:20
but we we're having a team party that
00:07:23
night a bit of a social gathering and
00:07:25
then he walks in to the room and you
00:07:27
know we're all having a few beers and he
00:07:30
walks in he turns the um the music down
00:07:33
and he looks around and he goes right he
00:07:35
goes anyone who didn't play today and
00:07:38
then he looks around and he stops at me
00:07:40
and he goes and [ __ ] you goes
00:07:44
in the foyer. Tomorrow morning at 8:00
00:07:47
we're training. I was like, "Fuck it."
00:07:49
And then uh so we were just like, "Ah."
00:07:52
Carried on the night went down. He
00:07:54
trained me. He put me at lock because we
00:07:56
were short there. So he made me train at
00:07:58
lock for the whole time. And every time
00:08:00
I made mistakes, which of course I was
00:08:01
going to do because I was training, you
00:08:03
know, in a position I had no idea about.
00:08:06
And uh every time I made a mistake, he
00:08:08
just abused me, abused everyone, got um
00:08:12
you know, and then you know, yeah,
00:08:13
penalized everybody for everything. And
00:08:15
I think I don't know if you remember um
00:08:19
cuz Mike Brewer, he wasn't on the on the
00:08:21
tour officially. He was there as a
00:08:24
Canterbury uh rep and um he was we were
00:08:28
short, so he's like, "Oh, you know, blah
00:08:29
blah blah." Yeah. Then he told Mike
00:08:31
Brewer to to get into to do the training
00:08:33
and stuff and he ended up anyway Mike
00:08:35
Brewer um played in a test match ahead
00:08:38
of Liam Barry but he got pulled from the
00:08:40
sideline to do it but that was that tour
00:08:42
but oh his he just abused you know he
00:08:45
man I've just seen him
00:08:47
>> but you know he'd do it
00:08:49
>> but he has said that to me too actually.
00:08:50
He said, "You know, the the reason that
00:08:52
I could I would say that to you is
00:08:54
because I knew, you know, I'd get a
00:08:55
positive response. You know, you could
00:08:57
take it." And he goes, "And you could
00:08:58
shake it off." And I'm not saying it
00:09:00
didn't, you know, at the time it didn't
00:09:01
affect me because, you know, you're just
00:09:03
thinking, "Fuck, you you have a good
00:09:04
training or something. You do something
00:09:06
and then you get abused and you're just
00:09:07
going [ __ ] what the And another time
00:09:10
he came in. He came in and he uh I was
00:09:13
having breakfast. Oh, no. after training
00:09:15
he had a meeting and he goes
00:09:18
um he looks at me and he goes you don't
00:09:21
don't you want to play you know aren't
00:09:22
you into this I was going [ __ ] he
00:09:24
goes I'll be up in my room this is after
00:09:26
training before we went down for lunch
00:09:28
and he goes I'll be up in my room he
00:09:30
goes if you want to if you want me to
00:09:31
take you out of that team he goes you
00:09:33
come up and [ __ ] you know
00:09:36
of course I never went up to tell I went
00:09:38
down had lunch and stuff he walks in and
00:09:40
he leans on the table gets right in my
00:09:42
face and he goes I was waiting and you
00:09:44
know you didn't come up and see me and I
00:09:46
was going [ __ ] it took all my willpower
00:09:49
not the [ __ ] and I wanted to smack him
00:09:52
but he was but you know he would
00:09:55
I'm sure he had a plan yeah but
00:09:57
>> it wasn't always clear what it was
00:09:59
>> it was yeah it wasn't always clear but
00:10:01
um no he was you know he was the best
00:10:03
coach I ever had and it turned out that
00:10:06
maybe he knew before I did that I didn't
00:10:08
mind that stuff you know and I know I've
00:10:10
seen people
00:10:12
>> um he's abused people he's sworn at them
00:10:14
he's done who haven't been able to take
00:10:16
it and turn it around. So, um it works
00:10:19
both ways. You got to I guess you got to
00:10:20
figure out the person.
00:10:21
>> Yeah. I I asked him about your nickname
00:10:24
uh the prince of darkness and he goes he
00:10:25
goes I could I could get I speculate how
00:10:27
he got that nickname and then he
00:10:28
chuckled but he said I don't know for
00:10:30
certain. Are you still the prince of
00:10:32
darkness? How did you get the nickname
00:10:33
Prince of Darkness? you'd have to ask.
00:10:35
Um, well, it was back in those days, you
00:10:37
know, when when you had a few beers and
00:10:39
you used to go out and, you know, we we
00:10:42
would go out, you'd have a few beers on
00:10:45
Thursday, you know, before uh after
00:10:47
training after you've you've done the
00:10:49
week, you know, you cuz back in those
00:10:51
days, and all the rules were changing, I
00:10:53
think, cuz you're only allowed to
00:10:55
assemble sort of three or four days out
00:10:57
from the actual game. So we'd assemble
00:10:59
on a Tuesday train. Oh, that's in New
00:11:02
Zealand, you know, train Tuesday,
00:11:03
Wednesday, Thursday, and we'd have a
00:11:07
little captain's run on Friday. But, you
00:11:08
know, you'd have a few beers um within
00:11:11
reason, of course, uh leading up to a
00:11:13
game, but then afterwards,
00:11:15
and you know, Lori was all for it. It
00:11:17
was, you know, it was what was done in
00:11:18
those days, you know, so you'd just go
00:11:21
out and um and enjoy yourself, you know,
00:11:23
and he didn't care. He said, "You know,
00:11:25
if long as you front up, because we used
00:11:27
to train actually the day after games,
00:11:29
especially when we're on tour, but you'd
00:11:31
go out, enjoy yourself, have a few
00:11:32
beers, but you better make sure that you
00:11:35
turn up to whatever you're supposed to
00:11:36
turn up. You got to be responsible as
00:11:38
well, but you turn up to team meetings,
00:11:40
you turn up to trainings, you perform at
00:11:42
training, you do what you have to do."
00:11:43
He didn't care if you went out and had a
00:11:45
few beers. So, of course,
00:11:47
>> we went out and had a few beers. And
00:11:49
there was a group of people in, you
00:11:51
know, Prince of Darkness. I think that's
00:11:53
an Eric Rush, you know, I'd go back to
00:11:56
uh go back to Russia and see where that
00:11:58
came from. But, you know, we spent a lot
00:11:59
of time out enjoying ourselves.
00:12:01
>> Oh, work hard play out. I suppose it was
00:12:03
the culture at the time, late '
00:12:04
>> 90s.
00:12:05
>> Um, so Celebrity Treasure Island, you're
00:12:07
back on that now. Uh, this isn't your
00:12:09
first time either. You've been you were
00:12:10
one of the original cast members like 25
00:12:12
years ago. What's the difference between
00:12:15
2001 Celebrity Treasure Island and 2026?
00:12:19
Apart from the fact that I'm 25 years
00:12:21
old, um it I well I think it's a lot
00:12:25
it's taken a lot more seriously now in
00:12:27
terms of um in terms of the production,
00:12:30
you know, and and you know what you're
00:12:31
what's expected of you and back then,
00:12:36
you know, and I always say it's it's all
00:12:38
about the people. But um 25 years ago,
00:12:40
you have to stop and think um that
00:12:43
that's kind of I can't remember any of
00:12:44
the challenges. I can't I can barely
00:12:46
remember the team. I can you know but we
00:12:48
were over in Fiji and we were having a
00:12:50
great time and you know it was it was
00:12:52
all good. Um but um the thing I do
00:12:55
remember about it is and even if it's
00:12:58
vaguely was that I had a bloody good
00:13:00
time and met some good people which when
00:13:03
you do these sorts of things you always
00:13:05
meet good people and um so you know when
00:13:08
I got asked again I was thinking you
00:13:10
know it it was quite timely but um I
00:13:13
thought
00:13:14
yeah you know I like a you know it's not
00:13:17
I like a little bit of a challenge you
00:13:19
know nothing too hard these days but you
00:13:21
know I won't shy away from things. But
00:13:23
um no, no, it's it's always it's always
00:13:26
just the people and uh you know, I had a
00:13:29
good time, so I figured I'll go back.
00:13:30
They didn't pay us 25 years ago. They
00:13:33
pay you these days. So, you know, that
00:13:34
was
00:13:35
>> You get like a day rate, don't you?
00:13:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:37
>> You pay for the days that you're there.
00:13:38
>> Yeah. You get a sign on and then you get
00:13:40
a a day rate
00:13:42
>> and then a bonus if you win.
00:13:44
>> But you're you're 64 now. Surely you
00:13:46
like sleeping in a comfortable bed.
00:13:47
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm sleeping in a
00:13:49
comfortable bed. But uh um I still
00:13:52
direct drive around in a Niss Antid
00:13:54
though.
00:13:54
>> Do you actually?
00:13:55
>> Well I well I have done for for years
00:13:57
and years but it's just one of those
00:13:59
little cars that um that went through
00:14:02
our family and sort of ended up with me
00:14:04
and uh
00:14:05
>> and it's a really little comfortable
00:14:07
little thing and you know it cost you
00:14:09
next to nothing to drive and and I only
00:14:11
you know I live in Pokoi so I zip around
00:14:14
>> wherever you need to go you go in five
00:14:16
or 10 minutes. Yeah.
00:14:17
>> How do you feel being 64?
00:14:20
>> Um
00:14:20
>> cuz there's that line in the Beatles
00:14:22
song, will you still need me? Will you
00:14:23
still feed me when I'm 64? It's like an
00:14:25
iconic line.
00:14:26
>> But you you're looking you're looking
00:14:27
really good. You feel okay?
00:14:29
>> I I do. I feel okay. I've got, you know,
00:14:31
I've got issues with knees and joints
00:14:34
and and and things like that, but uh um
00:14:37
nothing nothing major. And I I think I'm
00:14:39
lucky. You know, I I haven't really had
00:14:41
I've had a lot of injuries, but I
00:14:43
haven't had bad injury. And um and it
00:14:46
hasn't um hasn't stopped me from doing
00:14:48
anything. But yeah, that was uh it was a
00:14:51
little odd on the show because um you
00:14:53
know people defer you know straight away
00:14:56
oh you know are you okay? You okay with
00:14:59
this? Can you you need to go up there?
00:15:01
You know they and you're thinking [ __ ]
00:15:03
people are calling you ma. Yeah,
00:15:05
exactly. Mur ko and all these Oh, you
00:15:10
know, you just go cuz actually I was at
00:15:12
the airport one time and I was I don't
00:15:13
know what I was doing there. I was
00:15:14
dropping someone off or picking someone
00:15:16
up. But u I I drove out the wrong way. I
00:15:19
didn't even see the arrows and stuff
00:15:21
like that. There's barely any cars
00:15:23
there. And I drove out the wrong way.
00:15:25
And this other car came in and stopped
00:15:27
and they had to reverse out. And as I
00:15:29
drove out, the guy yelled out, "You're
00:15:31
going the [ __ ] wrong way, Grandpa.
00:15:36
What the [ __ ]
00:15:37
>> Cuz aging's funny, isn't it? Because um
00:15:40
I'm I'm a I'm I'm in my 50s now. I'm a
00:15:42
bit younger than you, but not by much.
00:15:43
And um I don't actually feel any
00:15:45
different. So, but every now and then
00:15:46
you get a glimpse of yourself in the
00:15:48
mirror. You're like, "Oh, shit."
00:15:49
>> That's Oh, yeah. That's I do that
00:15:51
walking along the street and your shop
00:15:53
window and I'm hunched over and I'm I'm
00:15:56
thinking, "Oh, there was uh we did
00:15:58
another um reality thing, the um
00:16:01
>> Oh, matchfit."
00:16:02
>> Matchfit. And uh you know that bears you
00:16:05
right down to the bones but they they
00:16:07
take this um
00:16:09
I can't even remember what it's called
00:16:11
but
00:16:12
you do all these tests all this physical
00:16:14
stuff but then they've got this this
00:16:16
image of you that gets sent and you
00:16:19
don't see it at the time you know we
00:16:21
don't see it until afterwards and when
00:16:22
they send all the paperwork and
00:16:23
everything through to you and um you
00:16:26
know standing on this thing and you're
00:16:27
stripped down to your underpants and
00:16:29
that and just stand there and it's all
00:16:30
right and then they'll say okay and you
00:16:32
got this is you know, your issue and you
00:16:34
got this problem, your cholesterol is
00:16:35
this and and you're sitting there going,
00:16:36
"Fuck," you know, and then when the when
00:16:40
the paperwork comes through, they they
00:16:41
sent and there's an image of you
00:16:43
standing there. [ __ ] you should have
00:16:46
said it. It's Oh, man. I I [ __ ] I hate
00:16:50
looking at you look at it and you know,
00:16:51
you got a gut and you're bent over and
00:16:54
you Oh, it's It was terrible.
00:16:57
>> It's so much vulnerability, isn't it?
00:16:59
It's like literally exposing yourself on
00:17:01
TV.
00:17:01
>> Yep. Yeah.
00:17:02
>> Um, yeah, but you lost your dad at 55 to
00:17:05
a heart attack. Um, so you're 9 years
00:17:07
ahead of where he is. You feeling good?
00:17:09
You feeling optimistic about the future?
00:17:10
>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I um I did say to I was
00:17:14
talking to Dr. Mayhew about it and uh
00:17:18
um you know I go to I barely go to the
00:17:21
doctors even. So I we've had a we've had
00:17:23
a family doctor. remember the days when
00:17:24
doctors used to come to your house and
00:17:26
you know so we had this doctor and he
00:17:29
was at the health center out in uh in
00:17:31
Mangadu where we grew up
00:17:33
>> and uh so one guy and then when he
00:17:37
retired this other guy this English guy
00:17:39
he came over and took his place and
00:17:41
we've been like 50 odd years you know
00:17:44
with this same doctor
00:17:46
>> and uh I go in and see him now since Doc
00:17:49
Mayhew's passed away with rugby I was
00:17:51
always going back to Doc Mayhew but now
00:17:52
I've gone back to um you know to Dr. all
00:17:56
and uh I said I you know barely come in
00:17:59
you know every he goes yeah I think
00:18:01
you're in every 10 years you know for a
00:18:02
blood test or something for a TV show
00:18:04
that you might be doing where you need a
00:18:05
physical I said yeah and he goes oh
00:18:07
you're lucky and I said oh yeah he go I
00:18:09
said oh yeah I've been pretty lucky I
00:18:10
haven't he goes yeah goes but what you
00:18:12
will get is going to kill you
00:18:14
>> so you go but you know my father his his
00:18:18
stuff was my father's stuff was
00:18:22
um bad lifestyle choices you know not
00:18:24
that I haven't made many of them, but um
00:18:27
you know he was a he was a young guy in
00:18:30
the Navy, you know, when they wake him
00:18:32
up in the morning and they drink rum,
00:18:34
you know, the old Navy rum thing and uh
00:18:36
you get a tot of rum and stuff and then
00:18:38
he that's all he did and then came out
00:18:40
of the Navy and you know he worked in in
00:18:43
pubs, managed a couple of pubs around in
00:18:45
Oakuckland and that was his kind of
00:18:46
lifestyle,
00:18:47
>> you know, and um
00:18:49
>> it just caught up with him.
00:18:50
>> Yeah. As it does.
00:18:51
>> Yeah.
00:18:52
>> And you're you're um Yeah. Yeah. You're
00:18:54
in an interesting interesting chapter of
00:18:55
life, eh? So, your dad is six, seven
00:18:56
grandkids.
00:18:57
>> Yep.
00:18:58
>> Yeah. What's the age range of the kids?
00:19:01
>> Um, of the kids, my oldest is 40 now,
00:19:04
and then my youngest is six. I had a
00:19:07
late in life. Uh,
00:19:09
>> well, you could say that half of them
00:19:10
were late in life.
00:19:13
But my oldest um, yeah, my oldest is 40.
00:19:15
He's over in Australia. He's over in
00:19:18
Perth. Um, he's got, um, he's got three
00:19:21
of the kids. uh he's a teacher over
00:19:24
there and he's married to a uh a sour
00:19:27
girl. She's a she was a cop but now
00:19:29
she's studying law over there so they're
00:19:32
all happy. Then um
00:19:35
next one is 35 who my daughter she's
00:19:38
four uh sorry she's got four kids
00:19:40
>> I mean they've just moved to Australia
00:19:42
as well on Saturday and then got a
00:19:45
younger one I can't remember how old he
00:19:46
is he's about 30 31 or something like
00:19:49
that and then still got a couple just
00:19:51
finished one just finished school she's
00:19:52
about 18 now then a 16y old and then a
00:19:56
six
00:19:57
>> yeah what's your how's your parenting
00:19:59
style changed like with the older kids
00:20:00
and the the and the young one Yeah.
00:20:03
There's there's there's there's a lot to
00:20:04
be said about older dads. E like Yeah. I
00:20:06
think a bit of perspective on what's
00:20:07
important and what matters and
00:20:09
>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. And uh and I believe
00:20:11
that I think I'd like to think my uh my
00:20:16
parenting style has changed, you know,
00:20:17
for the better. Um I'm I'm a lot more
00:20:20
conscious of uh you know, what they're
00:20:21
eating. And when I was a bit younger,
00:20:23
when the kids were young, you know, we
00:20:24
were just
00:20:26
um I remember with my son
00:20:30
my middle son, he was uh you know, we
00:20:32
were going down and you know, buying I
00:20:34
don't know, McDonald's or something like
00:20:35
that and uh we're talking about dinner
00:20:38
one evening. He said, "Can can we just
00:20:40
have some vegetables maybe for
00:20:42
what?" But, you know, a lot of the time
00:20:45
I was um, you know, I'd spend a lot of
00:20:48
time by myself with the kids and stuff
00:20:50
and then, you know, and I didn't know
00:20:52
how to cook or anything. You know, I
00:20:54
just generally to be down the road and,
00:20:56
you know, you buy Chinese food, you buy
00:20:57
McDonald's, you buy fish and chips, you
00:20:59
buy whatever, just take the easy road.
00:21:01
But I was um I've always, you know, had
00:21:04
I've got really really good
00:21:06
relationships, great relationships with
00:21:07
my children, which I'm which I'm pretty
00:21:09
proud of. Um, parenting styles now. I'm
00:21:13
I'm a lot more aware of, you know, and
00:21:15
then we didn't have social media really
00:21:17
back then, but a lot more aware now. And
00:21:20
my uh my wife is, she's an American. And
00:21:23
um she's a lot more aware, you know,
00:21:26
she's the one who's driving it. I'm kind
00:21:28
of a little bit more
00:21:30
I wouldn't even say easygoing, just it's
00:21:33
it's probably not a good thing, you
00:21:34
know, where I just Dad, can I watch on
00:21:37
your phone for Yeah. Yeah. He'll be
00:21:38
right, you know.
00:21:40
>> Oh, soft touch.
00:21:40
>> Yeah. And then the wife comes, she goes
00:21:43
on. I said, "Oh, yeah. I I you know, so
00:21:46
I Yeah, I could be better."
00:21:48
>> Yeah. So your wife Jessica um there
00:21:50
there's parallels with your relationship
00:21:51
and my relationship. There's um similar
00:21:53
age gap. You 19 19 20 years?
00:21:56
>> 19 years.
00:21:56
>> Yeah. I'm the same like 20 20 21 years.
00:21:59
Um Yeah. Yeah. How how does that work
00:22:02
out? Cuz that's one of my one of my
00:22:04
concerns with um with Ash. It's like
00:22:06
I'll be 80 and she'll only be 60 or
00:22:08
whatever.
00:22:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Jess is a I think
00:22:13
she's kind of an old heart, you know, an
00:22:15
old head um already. So um
00:22:20
yeah, we haven't really had a lot of,
00:22:23
you know, we haven't had issues to be
00:22:26
honest, but um you know, around that,
00:22:28
but um I think
00:22:31
I
00:22:31
>> I feel like you've got quite young
00:22:33
energy.
00:22:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:34
>> Like boyish energy.
00:22:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. You could be right there. So
00:22:39
I I I come down, you know, I come down
00:22:41
by 15 years and she has to come up a
00:22:43
little bit and then we meet in the
00:22:44
middle
00:22:45
>> as long as someone's being the adult in
00:22:46
any given time.
00:22:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's I hate to say
00:22:49
it, but it's always her.
00:22:50
>> Yeah. you know, but a lot of men do
00:22:52
that. You know, you just take you take
00:22:54
advice and you know, you take direction
00:22:56
from uh from your wife and you like
00:22:58
she's she's in education, you know, her
00:23:01
um
00:23:01
>> her family her whole family are are in
00:23:03
education and they're all they're all
00:23:05
academic, you know, so I think everyone
00:23:08
in their family's got a PhD.
00:23:09
>> Wow. and apart from one sister but um
00:23:13
according to her father that particular
00:23:15
sister who doesn't have the PhD is the
00:23:17
only one who she makes a pile of money
00:23:19
in real estate I think so over in the
00:23:21
states so um
00:23:23
>> it works out
00:23:25
>> I I I saw a quote from her online um she
00:23:28
says when I've asked him where do you
00:23:30
see yourself in 5 to 10 years what do
00:23:32
you enjoy doing he tends not to have a
00:23:34
vision I'd love to see him really get
00:23:36
excited about something and put his
00:23:37
energy into it where do yeah Do you
00:23:40
where do you see yourself in 5 or 10
00:23:42
years?
00:23:43
>> Yeah. See, I can't even answer that to
00:23:46
you. I can't, you know,
00:23:47
>> I've never been one that really
00:23:50
and it's a I must admit it's a bit of a
00:23:52
regret. I've never been one that's
00:23:54
looked ahead too much. I kind of live in
00:23:56
the in the now.
00:23:57
>> Quite cruisy.
00:23:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know,
00:24:00
it's good and bad. It sounds good, but,
00:24:02
you know, when you're 64 and you look
00:24:03
back and you go, "Yeah, I could have
00:24:05
done that. I should have, you know,
00:24:06
maybe tried a little harder, you know,
00:24:08
for this. But Jess is um yeah, she she's
00:24:12
the she's the type of person she sets
00:24:13
goals and and she's really driven and
00:24:16
and gets there. And um yeah, she's been
00:24:20
she's been pushing me a little bit, but
00:24:23
man, I I just don't have, you know, I I
00:24:26
like a lot of things. You know, I enjoy
00:24:29
I enjoy so many Oh, I enjoy so many
00:24:32
things, but um but there's nothing
00:24:34
there's no one thing that I'd like to
00:24:36
say, man, I would really love to do that
00:24:38
or to
00:24:40
>> um so I can't even answer.
00:24:43
>> Can't you tell her, chill out? I've done
00:24:45
enough. I've done a lot.
00:24:46
>> I do say that a little bit.
00:24:48
>> Bring up your Wikipedia page. Say, read
00:24:49
this.
00:24:50
>> Yeah, I do say that a little bit. And
00:24:52
then I say, and don't forget, I've been
00:24:53
alive 20 years longer than you have. You
00:24:55
know, I've traveled um there's only one
00:24:59
place that I'd like to go now, I think,
00:25:01
and that's Russia.
00:25:03
>> H
00:25:04
>> um if I had an opportunity to go to
00:25:05
Russia, I'd jump at it. Um everywhere
00:25:09
else, you know, I I feel that I've
00:25:10
traveled and I've seen, you know, a lot
00:25:12
of the world. I've done a lot through
00:25:14
rugby and still doing a lot through
00:25:15
rugby, but I have done otherwise. Um
00:25:19
um but in terms of life itself, you
00:25:22
know, I'm I'm kind of happy with with
00:25:24
the, you know, got my kids and the
00:25:26
grandkids and they're all doing well and
00:25:28
and um I'm I'm just happy in that space.
00:25:31
I think
00:25:32
>> you're content.
00:25:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I am. So, um you know,
00:25:37
I don't know. I say to my my kids, you
00:25:39
know, I'll
00:25:41
I'll be um I'll be disappointed if I
00:25:43
don't make 80.
00:25:45
Um I think that'll be my goal. I should
00:25:48
make 70. I've only got six more years,
00:25:50
you know, to get this six. You know
00:25:51
what? Six years goes just like that. So,
00:25:54
um
00:25:55
>> yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't
00:25:56
necessarily have a goal. I don't not
00:25:58
where I want, you know. I just want to
00:25:59
be I just want to be okay. I just want
00:26:01
to be happy, content, stay with that.
00:26:04
>> Kids doing well, family's doing well.
00:26:06
So, you know, I'm all right.
00:26:08
>> I think that's really good. And I've got
00:26:09
no doubt you'll make it to 80. Uh when I
00:26:11
spoke to Lori yesterday, uh he's he's 80
00:26:13
now. Gets up in the morning, does some
00:26:15
like um some stretching and exercises,
00:26:18
plays golf,
00:26:19
>> still shoots round about his age. Um
00:26:21
he's he's very fit and vibrant. As long
00:26:23
as you keep yourself a little bit
00:26:24
active, you can still have a really good
00:26:25
life as you get older.
00:26:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think these um you
00:26:28
know, the the reality shows that we go
00:26:30
on
00:26:30
>> that Matchfit was really good. A lot of
00:26:32
them are really good for you, you know.
00:26:34
Um, and and I do, I must admit, I do
00:26:37
prefer the the physical nature of of
00:26:40
different shows. Um, you know, Treasure
00:26:43
Island, you get on there and they go,
00:26:44
"Oh, we got a quizzes coming up today."
00:26:45
And you just go, "Oh, fuck." You know,
00:26:47
but if it's a, you know, running into
00:26:49
the surf and doing that's I'm I'm
00:26:51
happier with that. So, but you know,
00:26:53
match fit, you find out a whole lot
00:26:56
about yourself and about your um, you
00:26:58
know, your issues and um, that goes a
00:27:01
long way and it's it's well you
00:27:04
obviously go into a lot more detail, you
00:27:06
know, with matcha, but it's nothing that
00:27:08
you haven't heard before. You know,
00:27:09
don't do this, don't eat too much of
00:27:10
that, don't, you know, do that. And uh
00:27:13
when you're young, you can sort of
00:27:14
disregard all of that, which I did. But
00:27:17
now I'm a lot more aware, you know, and
00:27:19
my diet's better. I still eat I love
00:27:21
chocolate, and you know, I still eat a
00:27:23
lot of sweets and stuff like that, but I
00:27:25
also eat um a more balanced um meal, a
00:27:30
better diet. And you know, Jess is um
00:27:33
you know, is is responsible to that. Not
00:27:36
saying that other my other partners, you
00:27:38
know, in the past haven't tried, but you
00:27:40
know, you don't take notice until you're
00:27:42
64.
00:27:43
>> Do you um do you do you sneak chocolate?
00:27:45
So like after this you you drive back
00:27:47
home to Puka, which is about a 45minute
00:27:49
drive. Um will you have some chocolate
00:27:51
and dispose of the rapper so she
00:27:52
doesn't?
00:27:54
>> Probably. Maybe not. It depends what
00:27:56
time it is. You know, I don't need
00:27:57
chocolate in the morning. Go on. I'm not
00:27:58
that bad.
00:28:00
But uh yeah. Yeah, I do that. I go up,
00:28:03
you know, go up the road and get some
00:28:04
milk or do and it's like, you know,
00:28:07
there's a
00:28:09
peanut slab or something. Oh, no. All
00:28:11
right. And then eat that and Yeah. And
00:28:13
then get the wrapper out of the car, put
00:28:15
in your pocket, and then walk in, put
00:28:16
the milk there, and then
00:28:18
>> Yeah.
00:28:18
>> I There's so many dudes doing that.
00:28:20
>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's before dinner,
00:28:21
too. So, you know, Oh, yeah.
00:28:23
>> Or going to Bunnings and just like
00:28:25
having a couple of sausages really,
00:28:27
really quickly before anyone finds out.
00:28:28
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:29
>> Hey, let's um go back and we'll talk
00:28:31
about your early years and then we'll
00:28:32
build up to this um fantastic rugby
00:28:33
career you had. So um one of eight kids,
00:28:36
big family.
00:28:37
>> Yep.
00:28:37
>> Your mom Seifa.
00:28:38
>> Yep.
00:28:39
>> Is she still alive?
00:28:40
>> No. No. She passed about oh 10 probably
00:28:44
about 10 years ago or so.
00:28:45
>> Yeah.
00:28:46
>> Yeah. She um and it feel like it came on
00:28:49
you know quite quickly. I don't really I
00:28:51
don't know what you know what the cause
00:28:53
was but um she started getting a little
00:28:56
bit sick and said had some some women
00:28:58
some female issues um but um yeah I felt
00:29:04
like you know it she made a trip to
00:29:05
Australia and then came back and she was
00:29:07
suffering a little bit went into
00:29:09
hospital and and never came out but um
00:29:12
yeah for me seems like it it came on
00:29:15
quickly.
00:29:16
>> Yeah. How old was she? She was um
00:29:21
70
00:29:22
kind of early to mid70s. I don't don't
00:29:24
know exactly.
00:29:25
>> Right.
00:29:26
>> And she um she had eight kids. You're
00:29:28
one of eight.
00:29:29
>> Yep.
00:29:29
>> Where are you in the birth order?
00:29:31
>> Third.
00:29:31
>> Third.
00:29:32
>> Yeah. She had uh my first two sisters um
00:29:36
they were born in the same year. So one
00:29:39
was January and then one the other one
00:29:41
in December of the same year. So my
00:29:44
father was in the Navy. So the joke is,
00:29:46
you know, he'd go off and do his stuff
00:29:48
and then come home and, you know,
00:29:51
reconnect.
00:29:52
>> What was um you know, what were some of
00:29:54
the values from your upbringing that
00:29:55
like still guide you today or still sit
00:29:57
with you?
00:29:57
>> Um a lot of it a lot of it family,
00:30:01
>> you know, um
00:30:04
accepting accepting people. My mother
00:30:06
was always the one that drove every, you
00:30:09
know, didn't matter who you were. and
00:30:11
you know partners come and go and you
00:30:12
know they sometimes they come with kids
00:30:14
sometimes they don't you know but
00:30:16
everybody was was a member of the family
00:30:18
and they were all treated the same and
00:30:20
you know I think it's I think from her
00:30:23
um
00:30:25
you know you you accept and you you
00:30:27
treat people
00:30:29
>> well you know and uh and I think um
00:30:34
>> yeah yeah yeah that from her my father
00:30:36
was a he was a really hard you know when
00:30:38
he came out of the Navy and stuff and
00:30:40
you know, eight kids, one one income.
00:30:44
Well, it was one person bringing the
00:30:45
money in. My mother was busy raising the
00:30:48
children, but um you know, my father was
00:30:50
working two full-time jobs. Um
00:30:54
>> and uh you know, I think that took his
00:30:55
toll.
00:30:56
>> Um
00:30:57
>> it's a lot of pressure.
00:30:58
>> It's a lot of pressure. A lot of mouths
00:30:59
to feed.
00:31:00
>> Yeah. And you don't realize until you,
00:31:01
you know, you later on, but I never, you
00:31:03
know, we didn't have, you know,
00:31:06
>> well, no, I suppose we were poor, but
00:31:08
you didn't feel like, you know, we
00:31:10
weren't destitute or anything like that.
00:31:11
You know, we we never wanted,
00:31:14
>> you know, we couldn't afford, you know,
00:31:15
the luxuries, but we didn't want for
00:31:17
anything. I was never hungry. I can
00:31:18
never remember being hungry or or, you
00:31:20
know, not having something that I really
00:31:22
needed or things like that. But and it's
00:31:24
not until it's not until later on years
00:31:27
and years later when you when you're in
00:31:28
that same position, you know, and you
00:31:30
think, geez, my father was, you know,
00:31:32
working all night, he'd come home, you
00:31:34
know, he'd have breakfast or he'd have
00:31:36
something and he might have an hour or
00:31:37
two before he had to go to another job
00:31:39
and then do that and then come home and
00:31:40
then he'd have a couple of hours, few
00:31:42
hours sleep, and then he'd go back to
00:31:43
his, you know, and you go, how how can
00:31:45
you do that? And keep doing it for years
00:31:47
and years and years. So um you know that
00:31:51
uh all all that stuff you know when you
00:31:54
when you get a little bit older and you
00:31:55
and you start thinking about it it means
00:31:57
it means a whole lot more you know the
00:31:59
things the sacrifice that that parents
00:32:02
you know make for their children and you
00:32:04
don't you don't know about it until you
00:32:06
are in that position. Well, you only
00:32:08
know what you know. I like I I grew up
00:32:11
in Palmer North in the 80s and I I I
00:32:13
thought we were sort of poor and I look
00:32:14
back now and we were just very middle
00:32:16
class, you know, three bedrooms,
00:32:18
>> one bathroom and was only until you go
00:32:20
go to a friend's place that's got like
00:32:21
um like nicer biscuits or blue toilet in
00:32:25
the water. I was like, "Oh [ __ ] that's
00:32:27
that's rich." So, how many how many
00:32:29
bathrooms in your house growing up? Just
00:32:30
the one.
00:32:31
>> Just the one. Yeah.
00:32:32
>> So, you would have never had your own
00:32:33
bedroom?
00:32:34
>> Nope. Nope. Always shared. And every now
00:32:36
and then, you know, we'd swap, you know,
00:32:38
siblings and uh we didn't we didn't have
00:32:41
a shower, you know. We had a just a
00:32:43
bath. So, um I don't can't remember the
00:32:46
first time I lived in a place with a
00:32:48
shower. Um but we had a we had a
00:32:51
washroom there with a little, you know,
00:32:53
with the old and you know, early on back
00:32:55
in the day was one of those ones with
00:32:57
the old ringers, you know, that you'd
00:32:59
you'd uh thing the clothes through.
00:33:01
There was no there was no dryers or
00:33:02
anything. was always hanging the clothes
00:33:04
out on the on the clothes line. Um,
00:33:08
and then separate toilet and then
00:33:10
separate bathroom just with a with a
00:33:11
bath and you know, we just made it work.
00:33:14
>> Was it shared bath water?
00:33:16
>> Uh, yeah. Yeah, it was.
00:33:18
>> Yeah. How many? I remember cuz I was one
00:33:20
of four. So, from memory, we did an
00:33:22
order. So, it was oldest to youngest.
00:33:24
So, I was
00:33:24
>> I think it was always oldest to
00:33:25
youngest.
00:33:26
>> Second with the but if you're not first
00:33:27
then it's soapy ass. It looks dirty.
00:33:30
Yeah, but I think if we had cousins
00:33:31
staying over, then after like four,
00:33:33
they'd drain the plug and refill it.
00:33:35
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how
00:33:36
many how many would go through it. But
00:33:38
uh
00:33:39
>> I'm pretty sure it wasn't eight.
00:33:40
>> Mhm. What were your first memories of
00:33:42
rugby?
00:33:44
>> Um so we lived where we lived um
00:33:49
was ah was walking distance then, but
00:33:52
you had to walk everywhere back then. Um
00:33:54
up at the Manal Rugby Club and um I went
00:33:58
up there. I would have been I don't know
00:34:00
seven or eight years old you know when I
00:34:02
first started um organized sport
00:34:06
everything else was just playing out in
00:34:08
the you know because you were just free
00:34:10
to do anything in those days and uh I
00:34:12
can't recall that we had oh I don't know
00:34:15
I think we had bit of sport at school
00:34:17
primary school intermediate school you
00:34:19
know and then college was after that but
00:34:21
um um yeah my my first thoughts were
00:34:24
just going up there and just running
00:34:26
around you know barefoot with with a
00:34:28
whole lot of other people. Not certainly
00:34:30
not organized.
00:34:31
>> Um or they they might have thought it
00:34:33
was but um you know you just you just
00:34:35
get up there and do do whatever you
00:34:37
want. But um I went to I went up there
00:34:40
and I watched so the club Manuel it was
00:34:44
situated in Onihunga. Um but then but
00:34:47
then they got this just in time for me.
00:34:49
They got this um this field and new club
00:34:51
room set up in Mang. And uh the opening
00:34:54
game they got all these guys to come
00:34:57
down and um and play in the match and
00:35:00
Brian Williams BG he was playing in it
00:35:02
and I remember
00:35:04
>> I remember going up to him and getting
00:35:05
his after the game getting his signature
00:35:08
>> and uh he stood on my on my foot with
00:35:11
you know cuz they had steel springs in
00:35:13
those days too and I always always
00:35:15
remember that because he stood on my
00:35:17
foot but um you know I gave him the
00:35:20
thing and all that and there was a whole
00:35:21
lot of people around and boom and stood
00:35:23
on the foot was like and uh he just
00:35:25
signed the thing and I've told him that
00:35:26
many a time.
00:35:28
>> He was a big star, right?
00:35:29
>> Oh, he was massive. Massive legs.
00:35:31
>> Yeah, we we were we were uh we were a
00:35:34
rugby family. We're a sports family and
00:35:36
that was a that was always a great
00:35:38
memory cuz we'd we'd in our lounge in
00:35:40
our sitting room, you know, we had a TV
00:35:42
and uh there'd be 10 of us, you know,
00:35:45
lying around watching the All Blacks
00:35:47
play, you know, when they're over in the
00:35:49
UK or whatever. you know, get up in the
00:35:50
morning, everybody would get up and
00:35:51
you'd have your cups of tea and your
00:35:53
biscuits or whatever and um and just sit
00:35:56
there and watch. And, you know, Brian
00:35:58
Williams was a was always a favorite in
00:36:00
our household. So, um you know, it was a
00:36:02
it was a pleasure and honor to, you
00:36:05
know, to to actually become a you know,
00:36:07
a friend of his and then be kind of
00:36:09
taken under his wing a little bit. So,
00:36:11
um
00:36:12
>> yeah. Yeah, that was, you know,
00:36:15
>> with with you, what was um what was the
00:36:18
percentage of talent versus just hard
00:36:20
work? Were you naturally talented?
00:36:22
>> Uh to a point.
00:36:26
And
00:36:28
I didn't like hard work until until I
00:36:31
had to, you know, I had to do it.
00:36:33
Funnily enough, I don't mind hard work.
00:36:35
I don't mind hard work. Um well
00:36:37
especially so now but uh I think it's
00:36:41
probably Lori that really you know
00:36:43
showed me what I could do and uh I you
00:36:47
know my school reports could do better.
00:36:50
>> I never applied himself.
00:36:51
>> He never applied himself. Yeah. You know
00:36:53
always you know too social always off
00:36:56
talking to someone always you know doing
00:36:58
this could do a lot better you know and
00:36:59
that sort of I was that sort of kid all
00:37:01
the way through and I passed. I was I
00:37:03
was always in the top classes and things
00:37:05
like that and and um but you know I was
00:37:08
too busy having a you know having fun
00:37:10
and um
00:37:13
um yeah I you know I never really I I
00:37:18
guess when I was younger I had the
00:37:19
talent to get me into certain positions
00:37:22
but then I' I never you know I'd get to
00:37:25
the trials of a of a an age grade rep
00:37:28
team or something like that but I'd
00:37:29
never get picked. I'd get go through all
00:37:31
of the things but never quite make that
00:37:32
last one. And you know that that went on
00:37:35
for quite a few years but I was I was
00:37:36
doing all right at the club and you know
00:37:38
I was I was I was all right. I was
00:37:40
playing and never really had any any
00:37:42
thoughts of of you know I would have
00:37:44
loved to have been an all black but how
00:37:48
hard was it was I you know was I ready
00:37:50
to work and it turned out that not that
00:37:52
hard.
00:37:54
>> Yeah. Was was that like your dream? You
00:37:56
know, like like a lot of kids that even
00:37:58
today still have the dream of like um
00:38:00
you know, representing New Zealand and
00:38:01
playing for the Orbs. Was that a dream
00:38:03
for you or
00:38:03
>> It wasn't until I until I started, you
00:38:06
know, I did make a couple of, you know,
00:38:08
of those teams. I never really thought
00:38:10
it possible early on and didn't think
00:38:12
too much about it, but um
00:38:15
uh when I started making a a couple of
00:38:18
age grade teams and and things like that
00:38:20
and then then I thought, oh, and you
00:38:21
know, then I made a Oakland C team, an
00:38:23
Oakland Beat, you know, and I was kind
00:38:25
of hovering around that and I was
00:38:26
thinking, oh yeah, this could, you know,
00:38:28
you never know. Um
00:38:31
>> and I but the thing with me, I just did
00:38:33
what I had to do to get through, you
00:38:35
know, I did enough. Um but it wasn't
00:38:37
quite enough to you know take the next
00:38:39
step and um and I you know I was lucky I
00:38:43
think um you know the sour that
00:38:45
opportunity Peter Fats you know he was
00:38:47
always he was always at me so it's my on
00:38:50
my mother's side she's new um her father
00:38:53
was half sour and uh back in those days
00:38:57
you know that was enough but
00:38:59
>> you don't need to justify it played for
00:39:01
Sam for a couple of games.
00:39:02
>> Exactly. Exactly. Um so uh yeah, Fats
00:39:07
was always and some weren't in the first
00:39:09
World Cup, you know, but so um there was
00:39:11
a bit of an affront to them, but they um
00:39:14
just kept pushing and pushing Peter
00:39:15
Fats. So I thought, ah cuz he said to
00:39:18
me, he goes, "You're going to have to
00:39:20
face it." He goes, "You're never going
00:39:21
to be a [ __ ] All black." I said, and
00:39:24
he goes, "Come on, man." He goes, "This
00:39:25
is the opportunity, you know, do." And I
00:39:27
said, "Yeah, I think you might be
00:39:28
right." Cuz yeah, you know, as you say,
00:39:29
I was I was what 20
00:39:32
>> mid 20s at that time.
00:39:33
>> Yeah. 27ish
00:39:35
and it played for Aland, you know, I was
00:39:37
kind of I was thinking, oh well, you
00:39:38
know, did all right, but um yeah, when
00:39:42
that that door opened and I thought, oh
00:39:44
yeah, I will do that. Then jumped in and
00:39:46
that was all good and then it went on
00:39:47
from there and uh and you know,
00:39:49
obviously Lori was watching. So, uh but
00:39:53
I was never really really pushed, you
00:39:56
know. Um Lori came on and I'd never met
00:39:59
anyone. Well, I know to be honest, we
00:40:01
had a guy, Elby Prior, who was our club
00:40:03
coach, and he was kind of like Lori,
00:40:04
too. You know, where you were actually
00:40:06
physically scared. Um, so, um, but Lori,
00:40:12
he pushed, um, I I just found that I
00:40:16
liked that style, you know, I didn't
00:40:17
care that I got yelled at. Um, you know,
00:40:20
we got pushed and pushed and pushed and
00:40:22
then I realized, hey, I can do this. you
00:40:24
know, the harder he pushed cuz there
00:40:26
were guys, you know, we had guys that
00:40:28
were spewing on the sidelines after his
00:40:30
trainings or, you know, injured and
00:40:33
well, you know, he didn't care. It was
00:40:35
just, you know, well, [ __ ] off then. If
00:40:37
you can't finish training, [ __ ] grab
00:40:39
your gear and [ __ ] off. You're no use to
00:40:40
us. So, you know, people would sort of
00:40:42
get up and meekly sort of um sneak off.
00:40:47
But I, you know, I
00:40:48
>> You thrived in Yeah, I did. I enjoyed
00:40:50
it. I was like, you know, this is all
00:40:52
good. you just push and push and push
00:40:54
and you just got further and further and
00:40:56
further. So, um and I Yeah. And then I
00:40:59
found that I didn't mind being yelled
00:41:00
at, you know, being abused. You just go
00:41:03
in this, you know, listen to one out the
00:41:05
other.
00:41:07
>> So,
00:41:08
>> so rugby was um you you covered a lot of
00:41:10
ground. You covered like two World Cups
00:41:12
in that one answer just then. Um so, I
00:41:15
just want to unpack that slowly. While
00:41:16
this was all going on, were you working
00:41:18
on a rubbish truck?
00:41:19
>> Um
00:41:20
>> was that just a short chapter of time?
00:41:21
No, I was actually on the truck for
00:41:24
would have been a few years. So I think
00:41:25
leading up to that sour
00:41:28
to that first World Cup I was and a
00:41:31
little bit after that actually
00:41:32
>> cuz Rob was amateur then so there was no
00:41:34
money. You got 30 DMs maybe like a day
00:41:36
range or something else.
00:41:37
>> You know it was like you know 20 bucks
00:41:39
or something 30 bucks.
00:41:41
>> Um not really enough to send home to the
00:41:43
wife and say here pay the bills.
00:41:46
>> Here's $44. Pay the bills and feed the
00:41:49
kids.
00:41:49
>> Don't spend it all at once. Exactly. Um
00:41:53
uh yeah. Yeah. I I was I was working on
00:41:55
the rubbish trucks then and um
00:42:00
oh yeah that just I don't even know how
00:42:02
that came up actually. I you know I was
00:42:04
I didn't have a career like a set career
00:42:07
path. Um funnily enough I was you know I
00:42:11
was just going through life. I was
00:42:13
playing rugby. People um people were
00:42:16
giving me jobs you know around rugby. Um
00:42:22
yeah, I I would just go I you know
00:42:24
really when I look back now you know I
00:42:26
should have committed to something and I
00:42:27
I tell the kids and I tell whoever I'm
00:42:29
talking to you know go I haven't been in
00:42:31
school so obvious for a long time to
00:42:33
talk to kids and stuff like that but I
00:42:34
always used to tell them about you know
00:42:37
setting yourself up first cuz you know
00:42:40
as we know it can be all over in a you
00:42:42
know in a heartbeat. So, um I should
00:42:45
have done that, but um but it kind of
00:42:48
worked out.
00:42:49
>> Yeah. The rubbish truck thing would have
00:42:51
been good for fitness, right?
00:42:52
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:53
>> Jump jump jumping on and off the back of
00:42:54
a truck just running around K's every
00:42:56
day.
00:42:57
>> Y
00:42:57
>> you wouldn't have had a GPS, so you
00:42:58
wouldn't know your step count, but you
00:43:00
would have been covering a lot of miles
00:43:01
every day.
00:43:01
>> We were, you know, you're running for um
00:43:04
>> you'd be running for hours a day. Um and
00:43:08
and a discipline too because you like we
00:43:11
started at 6:00. So, you know, you'd
00:43:14
have to get out of bed at 5:00, get
00:43:16
yourself sorted, get to work. We used to
00:43:18
um meet in Pam Muer actually and um at
00:43:21
the swimming pool there and we'd start
00:43:23
at 6:00 and every day 6:00 till, you
00:43:27
know, we'd be finished
00:43:29
at lunchtime or, you know, 1:00. They
00:43:32
were the latest days. And you know that
00:43:34
whole time you were just pounding the
00:43:37
street and carrying stuff. So it was
00:43:38
really good in in more ways than one,
00:43:40
you know, not just physically but
00:43:42
mentally as well. And um I think you
00:43:45
know that that sort of stuff carried
00:43:46
over. I got I got started getting a few
00:43:48
league offers actually and I went over I
00:43:50
remember I was on the rubbish trucks at
00:43:52
one point and I went over and did a
00:43:53
fitness test at Newcastle at the Knights
00:43:56
and uh and came up. I think I was only I
00:44:00
was second to um Sam Stewart who was a
00:44:03
Kiwi captain back in those days and that
00:44:05
was all down to my um to my rubber truck
00:44:08
stuff. All the fitness fitness.
00:44:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. So um they thought I was
00:44:12
awesome.
00:44:13
>> This guy's fit.
00:44:15
>> How did how did you um how did you have
00:44:16
the energy for training and stuff?
00:44:19
>> Um you just got used to it. It was um
00:44:22
you know you'd finish at lunchtime,
00:44:24
you'd have a have lunch and that and
00:44:26
you'd have a little nap and then you
00:44:28
could train again later on. You just got
00:44:30
the body just got used to it. Became it
00:44:32
became normal. Didn't even think about
00:44:34
you know and I guess and you could eat
00:44:37
whatever you wanted. You could you could
00:44:40
do whatever you wanted. Um you know I
00:44:43
guess the body's a a wonderful thing.
00:44:45
You just you fuel it and it'll work for
00:44:48
you.
00:44:48
>> Actually he's previous podcast guest
00:44:50
probably about the same age as you. Mark
00:44:51
Graham.
00:44:52
>> Yeah.
00:44:52
>> Uh yeah. I think he was a brick layer.
00:44:54
So he'd work as a brick layer, then he'd
00:44:55
have a loaf of bread and go to Carl Park
00:44:57
for a training and
00:44:58
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You You just
00:45:00
>> You guys were built different.
00:45:01
>> Yeah. I we'd eat pie like um so we'd
00:45:04
start at 6:00 and then the first the
00:45:06
first sort of um first load was about 2
00:45:12
hours but by the time you're going to
00:45:14
you know to um to drop the load at the
00:45:16
uh at the local tip um you know it's
00:45:19
kind of 8:00 or something like that and
00:45:22
uh you'd eat pies. you just buy pies and
00:45:24
at the gas station and that's all you
00:45:26
know pie pie at 8:00 or two pies or
00:45:30
something and then um your next meal was
00:45:33
um was lunch. You go home and you have
00:45:35
lunch and have a sleep. I don't know. It
00:45:37
was just it just worked.
00:45:39
>> But
00:45:40
>> when when did you first go to a gym? Gym
00:45:42
wasn't a thing back then.
00:45:43
>> No, no, no. Um first gym I ever went to.
00:45:47
Oh gee.
00:45:50
Um I can't recall I think it might have
00:45:53
been remember Jim Blair he was uh he was
00:45:56
a coach with the fitness he was the
00:45:58
first I think uh Scottish guy he was the
00:46:00
first guy um who became a um you know
00:46:04
the fitness trainers with the he was
00:46:06
with the Oakland team
00:46:07
>> and um I think I went to his gym first
00:46:09
in Kyber Pass.
00:46:12
Uh yeah, I went I remember going for a
00:46:15
um going for a fitness test actually for
00:46:17
Oakland and we went up there and uh
00:46:20
doing had to do this rowing test and
00:46:22
cycling all this, you know, was all
00:46:24
getting a lot more scientific then. Got
00:46:26
through it, hopped in the car afterwards
00:46:29
to come home. Sat in the car, got all
00:46:31
dizzy and just vomited all over the
00:46:34
inside of the windscreen.
00:46:37
Oh yay.
00:46:39
>> Yeah. So, so two World Cups. Um, there
00:46:41
was the 1991 one for Samoa. Um, and you
00:46:45
guys did really well at quarterfinals.
00:46:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:48
>> Yeah. That was amazing.
00:46:49
>> Oh, it was so
00:46:50
>> What was that like?
00:46:51
>> That was so good. We um that was the
00:46:54
probably the one of the worst games we
00:46:56
played making that semi uh quarter
00:46:58
against Scotland. But um the whole
00:47:02
you know from the from the very very
00:47:03
beginning you know it meant so much to
00:47:06
Samour um you know to have a team that
00:47:09
was that they I mean they loved their
00:47:11
rugby they are so passionate um but you
00:47:15
know from the beginning where so you
00:47:17
know we had nothing but we'd go back and
00:47:19
we'd we'd raise we raised money to to
00:47:22
enable us to go and uh that's selling
00:47:24
raffle tickets you know the old pig in a
00:47:27
barrerow one where you walk around and
00:47:29
and sell raffle tickets and and um but
00:47:33
so we did that and man it was it was so
00:47:35
good. Went back to Selma, played in the
00:47:37
trials and things like that and you know
00:47:39
some a lot of the island boys and it was
00:47:41
and it was hard rugby back then too but
00:47:44
um you know they had they had their goal
00:47:47
um good coaching group, good heap of
00:47:51
good players and um get over there. the
00:47:54
good thing, you know, we we kind of took
00:47:56
we took them by surprise really the you
00:47:58
know, the rugby world
00:48:00
>> and um
00:48:01
>> I I don't think the power of um of of
00:48:04
the Polynesian, you know, was was that
00:48:06
well known up in the UK, you know, in
00:48:08
terms of sport uh way back then.
00:48:11
certainly, you know, down here um
00:48:14
appreciated, but uh you get up there and
00:48:16
you know, we we went to Cardiff and and
00:48:20
uh and spent a week there, trained, lost
00:48:23
a few people through injury, you know,
00:48:25
over the over the week or so that we
00:48:26
were there and um and then, you know,
00:48:29
built up for our first game against
00:48:31
Wales in Cardiff. And that was just a
00:48:34
you know, all years you've been sitting
00:48:36
there watching, you know, the All Blacks
00:48:38
play Wales and Cardiff. um Carter Farms
00:48:41
Park, the old the old one there. And it
00:48:43
was just so it was so and we were
00:48:45
treated really really well, you know,
00:48:48
everyone um
00:48:50
>> a lot of respect for the uh for the
00:48:52
Welsh and um get out there and then, you
00:48:55
know, we beat them and that was just
00:48:57
that was the beginning of so many things
00:49:00
for for a lot of people and um beat
00:49:03
them. I think I think um man I think we
00:49:08
sent sent about three or four of them
00:49:10
off you know having you know just Brian
00:49:13
Lear and you know a few Apollo Perilini
00:49:16
those guys just you know I think Apollo
00:49:18
Perilini broke two collarbones himself
00:49:21
um you know of the
00:49:22
>> he tackled hard. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. And
00:49:24
and Brian Limar, you know, they he went
00:49:26
on to become known as the chiropractor
00:49:29
just because of the way that he, you
00:49:30
know, I was saying to people, man, cuz I
00:49:32
had to mark him. And there was another
00:49:34
guy um Freddy Tuangi and uh his brothers
00:49:39
have gone on now. They're playing for
00:49:41
England and well, they they did play,
00:49:42
but um those guys, oh, you know, Brian
00:49:45
Lema, the chiropractor, you know, and
00:49:47
he's playing rugby at 35, you know, 40
00:49:50
years old and still hammering people.
00:49:52
said, "Man, you should have you should
00:49:54
have seen him when he was 18, 19 years
00:49:56
old, 20 years old." And we had to we
00:49:59
went over to Sour and played in a trial
00:50:01
and you know, I can't remember who I
00:50:02
was. Oh, Vayinga was this other guy, but
00:50:05
we had marking Brian Lear and Fred
00:50:08
Duangi. They were the two midfielders
00:50:11
and oh, there was another guy, Keneti.
00:50:14
But man, it was it was tough. It was
00:50:17
hard work but uh you know everything
00:50:20
that that did for sour and rugby um you
00:50:23
know so worth it and uh I I would have
00:50:26
had nothing if I hadn't been able to uh
00:50:29
to play for them. So
00:50:30
>> yeah as a result of that at the age of
00:50:32
30 that's how your all black call up.
00:50:35
You must have thought that ship had
00:50:36
sailed eh.
00:50:36
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Definitely.
00:50:38
>> And then how does that come about? Do
00:50:39
you get a call from from Lorie Mains or
00:50:41
is it from Colin Me who was the team
00:50:43
manager?
00:50:43
>> It was Lori actually. Lori. Was he nice
00:50:45
to you in that call?
00:50:46
>> Oh, kind of. Kind of. Um, he uh
00:50:52
yeah, so we we did that and you know I
00:50:54
was lucky because um you know the All
00:50:56
Blacks hadn't gone well in the in the
00:50:59
same World Cup. Um and there'd been a
00:51:01
change of um you know of coaching and
00:51:03
management and Lori had been appointed
00:51:06
and then yeah I get a phone call and um
00:51:08
and he asked you know is Lori Mains
00:51:10
here? Oh yeah. Then he goes, "Um, well,
00:51:14
um, I'm thinking," he goes, "You know,
00:51:16
told me, I've been the co I've been
00:51:17
appointed coach and blah, blah, blah."
00:51:19
Which I already knew, but I, so I'm
00:51:21
thinking, um, you know, would you like
00:51:24
an opportunity? And I was like, what?
00:51:26
And he goes, um, if I picked you, you
00:51:29
know, would you, you know, would you,
00:51:31
um, like the, would you take the
00:51:32
opportunity, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:51:34
I was going, oh yeah, um, yeah. And he
00:51:36
goes, I'm not promising anything. He
00:51:38
goes, you got to perform. He goes, I'll
00:51:39
name you. And he goes, "You perform."
00:51:42
And then he said, "You know, I didn't
00:51:43
promise anything and it's up to you." I
00:51:45
was like, he goes, "But he goes, if if
00:51:49
you want it, I'll give it to you." I was
00:51:51
like, "Right." Then I had to go about,
00:51:54
you know, I had to think about I had to
00:51:55
go and talk to a few people, but you
00:51:58
know, born in New Zealand, um, and a
00:52:02
rugby person born in New Zealand,
00:52:04
especially in those days, you know, you
00:52:05
wanted to be an all black. And yeah, I
00:52:08
did think the um the ship had sailed,
00:52:11
but um you know, opportunity came back
00:52:14
and then I thought, man,
00:52:16
>> if if I'm really really honest, I just I
00:52:18
guess even by the time I'd hung up, um I
00:52:21
knew that what I was going to do, but I
00:52:23
had to go through the process of, you
00:52:25
know, man, what should I, you know,
00:52:27
what's the balancing act? Ask Peter
00:52:29
Fats. And he was like, [ __ ] He goes,
00:52:32
you know, all those years, you know,
00:52:34
I've been trying to get you and you come
00:52:35
and you just were. So he started calling
00:52:37
me Frank once.
00:52:40
He goes, "Oh, [ __ ] Frank once." Yeah.
00:52:42
Oh.
00:52:44
Um, yeah. So I told Lori, "Yep, yep.
00:52:46
Okay, I'm in." So that was that.
00:52:49
>> And the timing couldn't have been better
00:52:50
cuz that's just when rugby was going
00:52:51
from amateur to professional.
00:52:53
>> Yeah. What was that like?
00:52:54
>> No. Oh, well, no, that was 1992 and it
00:52:57
went professional in 96.
00:53:00
>> But uh
00:53:01
>> Oh, okay. Right. Right.
00:53:02
>> Yeah. But um
00:53:05
Yeah. Oh, that that was
00:53:08
uh in terms of it was difficult, you
00:53:12
know, because um you had to rejig
00:53:14
everything, you know, everything you'd
00:53:16
been doing for years and years and
00:53:17
years. So, you know, this year is the
00:53:19
30th anniversary of Super Rugby and uh
00:53:22
or professionalism, but Super Rugby. And
00:53:25
um we had a uh when the Chiefs played
00:53:28
their first home game this season,
00:53:29
there's a group of the you know players
00:53:31
from the first very first Chiefs team
00:53:33
that went down for a little bit of a
00:53:35
celebration and um I think all of the
00:53:37
Super Rugby teams have been doing it.
00:53:39
But we go down there and then we're all
00:53:40
having a you know reminiscing
00:53:43
um but you didn't know what was going
00:53:45
on. Uh Brad Morant who was our North
00:53:47
Harbor coach he came down he was our
00:53:49
first chief's coach and Sid going and
00:53:52
you know but you go down and you're a
00:53:54
professional rugby player professional
00:53:56
footballer.
00:53:58
How does that work? Um
00:54:00
>> what does it mean?
00:54:01
>> Nobody knows you know as far as a few of
00:54:03
us concerned it was just like oh well
00:54:05
now we we just get paid you know
00:54:07
everything we've been doing our whole
00:54:08
lives now we get paid to do. Not quite.
00:54:12
But um that's how we looked at it. But
00:54:15
it was finding out. Um so how many times
00:54:20
a day do you train? Well, you know, what
00:54:21
do you do? Um I remember Brad, he's
00:54:24
like, "So, you know, you always train
00:54:26
and then forwards will go off and do
00:54:28
their line outs and do, you know, all
00:54:30
the backs, you know, go out and, you
00:54:31
know, do whatever whatever plays and
00:54:33
moves that they had." But you do that in
00:54:36
the morning and you come back and you
00:54:37
have lunch and then you go, "Now what do
00:54:40
we do? Gym sessions." And we'd never
00:54:42
been to the gym before, you know, and
00:54:43
you're just going, "Fuck." Uh, okay. And
00:54:46
then Brad's like goes, "Okay, forwards.
00:54:49
Forwards. Um, 2:00 we're going to go
00:54:51
down the park and we're going to do some
00:54:53
lineouts." Okay. Okay. Beexs, um, well,
00:54:57
you can come, too. And we were going,
00:54:59
"Oh, [ __ ] What do we want to go? What
00:55:00
are we going for? Fuck." be a winner. He
00:55:02
goes, you know, he's like, "Stop the
00:55:04
[ __ ] He goes, I'm the boss." And he
00:55:05
goes, "If I tell you to [ __ ] go and
00:55:07
sit under that [ __ ] tree, he goes,
00:55:09
you'll go and sit under that tree." And
00:55:11
uh he goes, "You work for me now." And
00:55:13
you know, it was all all the games then
00:55:15
were 7:30 um at night rather than rather
00:55:19
than 2:30 or 3:00 kickoff. So then you
00:55:21
had to figure out, you know, the rest
00:55:24
and the when do you eat and, you know,
00:55:27
um how to prepare yourself to be, you
00:55:29
know, at your best at 7:30 at night
00:55:31
rather than 3:00. And then, you know,
00:55:32
you finish playing and then you and then
00:55:35
you um
00:55:38
they have they started all their warm
00:55:39
downs and recovery sessions and stuff
00:55:41
like that and that was all totally new.
00:55:43
So everything we were kind of guinea
00:55:44
pigs really everything was totally new.
00:55:47
um you know around around how to prepare
00:55:51
and then how to recover and how to act.
00:55:53
Um as a professional you know you play a
00:55:55
game at 7:30 2 hours later or so it
00:55:58
finishes then you go in and then you
00:56:01
shower up and you do what you have to do
00:56:02
and then you're like well we got to go
00:56:04
out for a few beers you know but it's
00:56:06
midnight by then. That's probably where
00:56:08
Prince of Darkness came in cuz it's
00:56:10
midnight by then and
00:56:13
you know it's hard to go out and find a
00:56:14
bar that's open you know.
00:56:15
>> Yeah.
00:56:16
>> At midnight. But
00:56:19
>> anyway,
00:56:20
>> what do you remember of your all black
00:56:21
debut?
00:56:23
>> Um we lost but um
00:56:26
>> who was that against?
00:56:27
>> That was uh a world 15. We played
00:56:30
against the World 15 and uh and we lost
00:56:34
and I remember thinking um because my
00:56:38
brother actually my youngest brother um
00:56:41
before that first game he he rings me up
00:56:44
and he goes you know all good. I said
00:56:46
yeah yep yep you know
00:56:49
he goes [ __ ] don't embarrass us.
00:56:52
said, "Hey, hey." So, uh, anyway, this
00:56:55
is all on my mind, you know, as I'm
00:56:56
playing, but I was marking um Tim Hin, I
00:56:59
think it was. And, um, I remember
00:57:04
I remember the loss, but um, I remember
00:57:06
during the game, you know, the pace was,
00:57:08
you know, everything was just was just,
00:57:11
you know, so much faster and you had to
00:57:13
think quicker and you and I did come
00:57:15
away with doubts. I was thinking to
00:57:17
myself, [ __ ] you know, can I do this?
00:57:19
And um it wasn't until wasn't until I
00:57:22
don't know three or four games in where
00:57:24
you start thinking, "Oh, okay. I can
00:57:26
>> handle the pace.
00:57:27
>> I can handle." Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:29
>> When I spoke to Lori yesterday, he
00:57:30
talked about how how good you were on
00:57:32
defense, but also how deceptively quick
00:57:34
you were on attack as well and how just
00:57:35
your rugby IQ, how you had the ability
00:57:38
to like spot a gap before anyone else
00:57:40
did.
00:57:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um
00:57:42
>> you just adjusted to it.
00:57:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you there was
00:57:45
there was a whole lot more that went
00:57:47
into it. Um and you know I I put this
00:57:49
down to Lori too um as well but he in
00:57:53
terms of preparation the physical part
00:57:56
of your preparation is the easy part.
00:57:57
you know, anyone can get fitter, can get
00:57:59
stronger, can, you know, learn, you
00:58:02
know, how to do this, how to tackle, how
00:58:03
to all of that, but um you've got to
00:58:06
have your mind, you know, your your
00:58:08
head. You've got to have that sorted
00:58:09
out. And I was going I was going, you
00:58:12
know, I was having ups and downs, highs
00:58:13
and lows with um in terms of form. Um
00:58:17
you know, that first game that I played,
00:58:19
I I didn't really, you know, there's
00:58:22
nothing you could say that you did this
00:58:23
wrong. you know, you did, but I just
00:58:25
went through the game sort of not doing
00:58:27
anything, you know, you kind of and um
00:58:31
and I I'm pretty sure, you know, not
00:58:34
really showing any any potential, you
00:58:37
know, for for growth. Um but so I was I
00:58:41
was I was up and down in terms of uh in
00:58:43
terms of form and my confidence was was
00:58:46
pretty low.
00:58:47
>> But Lori came in one day and he said,
00:58:50
>> "You know, you've got to sort yourself
00:58:52
out. you got to [ __ ] figure figure
00:58:53
yourself out. And he goes, so in the
00:58:56
team um at that stage I don't think we
00:58:59
had was Mertz there.
00:59:02
Grant Fox was first. And anyway, but
00:59:05
there was there was old Mark Ellis and
00:59:07
you know there was a there's a group of
00:59:08
people and he goes um figure out what
00:59:12
you can and what you you can't do. He
00:59:14
goes, "You know, you got Mark Ellis can
00:59:16
do this and you know, can" and there
00:59:18
were groups of guys mucking around,
00:59:19
laughing, you know, not they were they
00:59:21
were that was in their preparation, but
00:59:23
they could do it. He said, "You can't."
00:59:26
And he said, "So [ __ ] stay away from
00:59:28
them. Find yourself a player, you know,
00:59:30
a quiet spot. Um, sit down and [ __ ]
00:59:33
you know," and he goes, "Um, figure
00:59:35
yourself out." I thought, "Oh yeah,
00:59:37
actually I think you're right." So I
00:59:40
started staying away from those, you
00:59:41
know, cuz you get caught up. you just
00:59:42
get caught up in, you know, they're
00:59:43
having a mucking around playing jokes
00:59:45
and stuff like that and, you know, and
00:59:47
then it takes away from the focus that
00:59:49
you really need to be putting into the
00:59:51
test match. And um so I thought, "Holy
00:59:54
[ __ ] he's right."
00:59:56
>> Started, you know, going away, moving
00:59:58
away, you know, finding a quieter spot
01:00:00
at a certain point, move away, and then
01:00:02
just start thinking about the game. And
01:00:04
then I'd go through a I'll go through a
01:00:07
bit of a checkpoint uh checklist, you
01:00:08
know, and you're going, "All right, I'm
01:00:12
I'm fit." You could always be a fitter,
01:00:14
but you know, I'm fit enough. Um
01:00:16
injuryfree. Yes, I know everything I'm
01:00:19
supposed to do. Um you know, this and
01:00:22
you know, chat with Walter mainly and
01:00:24
you know, we we're okay. You know, we're
01:00:25
organized.
01:00:28
Okay, I'm okay. So now so I just started
01:00:31
thinking now and then visualizing you
01:00:33
know and that I can't remember who got
01:00:36
me into that but you you sit down there
01:00:38
and you just just run through your mind
01:00:40
you know of okay if they do this okay
01:00:43
I'm all right with that I can move you
01:00:45
know tell Walter that I can do watch out
01:00:47
for that guy might be coming in there
01:00:49
you know and you just go through
01:00:50
different plays okay oh I'm then you
01:00:52
think [ __ ] I'm okay I can and then that
01:00:57
had a you know because you go in
01:00:59
confident and with the sports person
01:01:01
it's you know confidence is huge
01:01:04
>> or lack of um but yeah yeah so uh from
01:01:09
Lori having come in and said [ __ ]
01:01:10
sort yourself out you know figure out
01:01:12
what you can and can't do and all that I
01:01:14
said okay went away and then my my
01:01:17
consistency then from going from that my
01:01:20
consistency just evened out and um got
01:01:24
to a point where I could just switch on
01:01:26
when I had to and you know nothing
01:01:28
crazy. I you know, not that not that I'm
01:01:31
a Mark Ellis type person, but you
01:01:33
>> you just want to be where the fun is.
01:01:35
>> Yeah. But if you know, if people are
01:01:37
having a laugh and stuff like that and
01:01:38
you know, you you can you can be in it
01:01:41
and then you can just switch out of it
01:01:43
and I can then I can just go along that
01:01:44
road and focus. So I think, you know,
01:01:47
that was that was huge for me. And then
01:01:49
everything kind of rolls on from there
01:01:51
when you've got confidence, you know, a
01:01:53
lot of talking, a lot of um you know, a
01:01:56
lot of just connection. So, um, yeah,
01:01:59
that's kind of how I I was able to to to
01:02:02
move through and professionalism. Well,
01:02:06
what's that done for me? I
01:02:09
cuz people used to say that the All
01:02:10
Blacks were the most professional team
01:02:12
even though it was a fully amateur game,
01:02:13
you know, they were the most
01:02:14
professional team out, but it was all
01:02:16
mindset
01:02:17
>> and I think um I think that's, you know,
01:02:19
that's really what got me there. And I
01:02:22
don't know, I was I was able to I was
01:02:25
always able to, you know, to see things
01:02:28
that were happening. Um, you know, you I
01:02:32
like if I'm coaching people now, um,
01:02:34
especially young backs and that, you
01:02:36
know, you you stand back and said this
01:02:37
is where you should be, you know, then
01:02:39
looking at, you know, what's happening.
01:02:40
Where are they positioning themselves?
01:02:42
Where's that wing? If he's over here,
01:02:44
then, you know, you got to be aware of
01:02:46
something that might happen. And then
01:02:48
you talk to your mate, your next, you
01:02:49
know, your your midfield partner or the
01:02:52
other wings, you know, make sure
01:02:53
everybody is switched on to the same
01:02:54
thing. And it it kind of after a while,
01:02:56
you know, you're not even looking, you
01:02:58
know, it's we might be standing there
01:02:59
and like, Dom, you see that guy over
01:03:01
there? Yep. Yep. He's yours if he comes
01:03:02
out. Yep. Yep. Yep. Got that. Got that.
01:03:04
And it's, you know, it just happens.
01:03:06
Just
01:03:06
>> Wow.
01:03:07
>> Yeah. So gets to a point where you don't
01:03:10
even think about it, you know. Just
01:03:11
>> just instinct.
01:03:11
>> It's just instinct. Yeah.
01:03:14
>> Yeah. You and Mort Little, one of the
01:03:15
considered one of the greatest
01:03:16
partnerships ever. Do you do Yeah. Do
01:03:18
how often do you guys see each other
01:03:20
these days? It's funny when you get
01:03:21
older, right? Cuz you you move in very
01:03:22
different circles.
01:03:23
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:24
>> Such a big partnership for such a long
01:03:25
time.
01:03:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'll say and um you know,
01:03:29
when I first went over to North Harbor
01:03:31
and Walt was there and and you know,
01:03:33
connection straight away really. Um such
01:03:36
an easygoing person. He was one of the
01:03:38
last guys who smoked you know him and
01:03:40
Grant Fox. Actually, for [ __ ]
01:03:42
>> sake. You get a the game finishes and
01:03:45
then you you walk into the change room
01:03:47
and you know you hear a
01:03:51
you look around. Yeah. Walked up then
01:03:56
>> different time.
01:03:57
>> Yeah. Oh, diff Oh, you know, he's just
01:03:59
smoking there and um he smoked all the
01:04:02
way through his through his career. Um,
01:04:05
I remember rooming with him and uh, you
01:04:08
know, he he'd always go out on the
01:04:10
balcony or something at the hotel and
01:04:12
have his cigarette. John Timu. One day I
01:04:14
was rooming with John Timu and he comes
01:04:17
in and he's lying on the bed. He starts
01:04:20
lights up a smoke. I was going, "Hey,
01:04:21
hey, hey, [ __ ] you know what are you
01:04:23
doing?" He goes, "What?" I said,
01:04:25
"Fucking Walter goes out on the balcony
01:04:27
to smoke." And John Timu goes, "Well,
01:04:30
I'm not [ __ ] Walter."
01:04:33
I was like, "Fuck."
01:04:35
Well,
01:04:37
>> was was he more experienced than you?
01:04:39
Had he been in the team longer?
01:04:40
>> Who's that? Walter.
01:04:41
>> Um John.
01:04:42
>> Um Oh, yeah. He had cuz he came in, you
01:04:45
know, the same time as Craig and Walter.
01:04:47
And they were all of the same. Um
01:04:50
another guy, Jason Goldmith, who uh
01:04:52
unfortunately broke his leg.
01:04:53
>> Yeah.
01:04:53
>> But um
01:04:55
>> yeah, he'd been in there a couple of
01:04:56
years before that,
01:04:58
>> but um
01:04:59
>> yeah, you know, what do you do? But you
01:05:02
know, Walter Wild Yeah. Some
01:05:04
>> Yeah. Walter um
01:05:07
you know, and so much ability. He had a
01:05:10
I think he had a knee injury for most of
01:05:12
his um for most of his career. And uh
01:05:15
but he could play, you know, great, you
01:05:18
know, skills, hands, fast hands. He
01:05:21
could kick with both both feet. He could
01:05:23
I think everything was natural. And um
01:05:25
he, you know, I say I didn't like
01:05:27
training that much, but um he liked it
01:05:29
less.
01:05:31
Um but you know he could play anywhere.
01:05:33
He could that guy Ben you know in answer
01:05:36
to the first part of your question I
01:05:38
haven't seen him for years probably.
01:05:40
Every now and then you know we'll cross
01:05:42
paths uh
01:05:44
>> you know talk or somebody will you know
01:05:48
um but I haven't I don't even know where
01:05:49
he lives. He's over the shore somewhere
01:05:51
but I'm not sure
01:05:52
>> not sure where he lives. But um the good
01:05:55
that's a good thing too though you know
01:05:56
you can pick up just like that. Um, if I
01:05:59
saw him if I saw him tomorrow, you know,
01:06:02
um, it'll be just like
01:06:04
>> 20 years ago.
01:06:05
>> And what do you talk about when you when
01:06:06
you do see each other? You reminisce.
01:06:08
>> Um, not really. Not really. Just just
01:06:10
about what's happening, you know, what
01:06:12
>> what's you know ask you always ask about
01:06:15
the family and stuff like that. And uh,
01:06:17
>> and his wife Tracy, you know, those guys
01:06:20
have been together. Man, they must have
01:06:22
been he still seems young. I don't even
01:06:24
know how old Walter is now. He must be
01:06:28
what's Oh, he must be mid-50s now.
01:06:30
>> But, you know, they those two have been
01:06:32
together for probably 40 years.
01:06:34
>> Incredible.
01:06:35
>> Incredible. Yeah. You know, had a family
01:06:37
and just living their life. So, um
01:06:41
um yeah, you know, when you catch up,
01:06:43
it's just, you know, what's going on
01:06:44
with the family and stuff and, you know,
01:06:46
>> wherever you might meet, what are you
01:06:47
doing here or you know, just general
01:06:48
sort of thing.
01:06:50
>> I think a lot of male friendships are
01:06:51
like that and there's something quite um
01:06:53
quite comforting about it. It's like,
01:06:55
you know, there's no bad blood between
01:06:56
you. You just don't need to catch up all
01:06:58
the time.
01:06:58
>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
01:07:00
>> I've got this photo here, um, an iconic
01:07:02
photo. Michael Broyle from Australia
01:07:04
just laying into you
01:07:06
>> and he he wasn't um I'd sort of
01:07:08
forgotten about this, but I was
01:07:09
researching this over the weekend. He
01:07:10
wasn't sent off or anything. Eh,
01:07:12
>> no. No, he was I think he was just
01:07:14
penalized.
01:07:14
>> So, he just he just comes up to you and
01:07:16
um it only looks like he connects with a
01:07:18
couple of punches, but there's maybe
01:07:19
like 10 unanswered blows.
01:07:21
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it was my
01:07:25
fault actually because I elbowed him.
01:07:27
The ball came. Look at that Andrew
01:07:29
Murdens. He's not even taking any notes.
01:07:31
>> Just ignoring it. I don't want to I
01:07:32
don't want to see it.
01:07:33
>> Christian Cullen, I think Christian
01:07:35
Cullen walked past uh on the He's in the
01:07:38
shot in the background on TV. He just
01:07:39
walks past and
01:07:40
>> Yeah. Not my circus. Not my monkeys.
01:07:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, no. The ball the ball
01:07:45
spewed out from someone from something
01:07:47
and I bent down to pick it up and uh
01:07:51
because the leadup to that match was a
01:07:53
little bit you know a little bit iffy.
01:07:55
There was a bit of few words, you know,
01:07:58
said and, you know, I think Sam Scott
01:08:00
Young was um was involved in something
01:08:04
with the Hucker and stuff like that and
01:08:05
it was there was just a bit of words and
01:08:07
then they bought I think they bought
01:08:08
Michael Bry in as a bit of an enforcer,
01:08:10
you know, cuz they everyone had been
01:08:12
going on about how the Aussie forward
01:08:13
pack were were soft and you know, all of
01:08:15
this. Then they brought him in and uh he
01:08:19
had the ball spewed out and I bent down
01:08:20
to pick it up and when I looked up he
01:08:22
was right in my face and then I just put
01:08:24
raised my elbow up and you know snapped
01:08:27
him right in the face and he just came
01:08:29
back with about like as you say about 10
01:08:31
I think I the first one definitely
01:08:34
landed and then after that I I think
01:08:37
most of them sort of glanced off but um
01:08:39
about 10 unanswered. Yeah.
01:08:41
>> Did it take a lot of restraint for you
01:08:42
not to not to fight back or did you just
01:08:44
go into defense mode? defense mode.
01:08:46
Yeah, that's what everyone goes, oh
01:08:47
jeez, that was you you know you seemed
01:08:49
really disciplined.
01:08:50
>> Yeah, that was that was good discipline.
01:08:51
I was going no I just I just bent my
01:08:54
head down and closed my eyes basically.
01:08:57
This will be over soon and then
01:08:59
>> someone mirth has got to be coming soon.
01:09:01
>> Yeah, exactly. Little did I know he was
01:09:04
off up the road.
01:09:05
>> I heard a rumor that um you like he was
01:09:08
he Michael Ber held a grudge over you
01:09:10
from something that happened like three
01:09:11
or four years earlier.
01:09:12
>> Yeah. Um I I don't think it was but um
01:09:16
we were playing um I think we were
01:09:18
playing New South Wales. we're on tour
01:09:20
in Australia and he was offside, you
01:09:22
know, leaning over in a ruck and and in
01:09:25
those days, you know, you could do this
01:09:26
sort of thing, cleaning out the rucks
01:09:28
and that and but he was he was um
01:09:30
leaning over and you know, just getting
01:09:32
in the halfback's way so we couldn't
01:09:34
clear it and I couldn't not take the
01:09:37
opportunity because he was he was
01:09:39
leaning over and his whole the right
01:09:42
side of his body was open and I was just
01:09:44
thinking, "Oh man, I can't not do it."
01:09:47
So, I went flying in and just cleaned
01:09:49
them out. And uh there was a you know,
01:09:52
there was a big big fight that uh that
01:09:55
ensued and um I think I got penalized
01:09:59
for that. I think actually he went off.
01:10:00
That's right. Yeah. But I got penalized
01:10:03
but you know.
01:10:05
>> And did you lose your ear against the
01:10:07
lions? Did you get your ear wiped off?
01:10:09
>> Yeah, I think it's
01:10:12
>> It looks completely Oh, I can see a scar
01:10:14
up there. But was it completely removed?
01:10:16
>> No.
01:10:16
>> No. just hang out.
01:10:17
>> Yeah, it was split like that. Um, yeah,
01:10:20
that was uh that was lying on the wrong
01:10:23
side of um of the rock and it was um
01:10:27
what's his name? Bloody
01:10:30
I can't remember his name. He was a
01:10:31
policeman, too. The guy who did it to
01:10:33
me, Richard. No,
01:10:35
I can see his face, but I just can't
01:10:37
can't recall his name right now. But, um
01:10:40
yeah, I was just lying on the wrong side
01:10:41
of the rock and he just that was always
01:10:44
a thing, too. you know, they always used
01:10:45
to go on about, you know, rucking um you
01:10:48
know, about New Zealanders the way they
01:10:50
rucked and things like that, but um when
01:10:53
the when the British tried it, they they
01:10:55
weren't quite as uh the technique wasn't
01:10:58
quite there, you know, cuz they saw our
01:11:00
rucking as as stomping and stamping, you
01:11:03
know, and and that. But um
01:11:07
but uh yeah. Yeah, they just jumped in
01:11:09
and I think they were just, you know, we
01:11:11
were rocking the hell out of them and
01:11:12
they were they were when they were
01:11:13
touring, you know, they were playing
01:11:14
Otago and Weta and all those teams that,
01:11:17
you know, and they were, that was back
01:11:18
in the heyday when, man, you just
01:11:20
climbed all over people and ripped their
01:11:21
jerseys off them and and, you know,
01:11:23
scars down the back and things like
01:11:25
that.
01:11:26
>> That was a day when um, you know, you go
01:11:28
into the shower afterwards and the Fords
01:11:30
are all in there with ruck marks, you
01:11:32
know, and man, it was it was pretty
01:11:36
>> a tough game back then, though. Yeah,
01:11:37
exactly. But um
01:11:39
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, he just jumped all over
01:11:42
me and and ripped my I I didn't really
01:11:44
feel it, you know. I was getting also
01:11:46
getting wrecked and things on here, but
01:11:48
u I was lying on the ground and Doc May
01:11:50
who comes over and he's like, you know,
01:11:52
lie down. You know, and he said, "Oh,
01:11:55
you're you're here. Don't worry, it's
01:11:56
all right." Then he just taped it all up
01:11:58
and I didn't know till afterwards, you
01:12:00
know, that it was that it was split.
01:12:02
But, uh there was another fight after
01:12:04
that. It was Oh,
01:12:08
but it happened actually again in um
01:12:10
we're playing South Africa over in South
01:12:13
Africa and um Mark Andrews this and he
01:12:16
uh I went to tackle him. The game had
01:12:18
just gone on for seemed like ages
01:12:20
kickoff and gone on for ages and that
01:12:22
and then uh I went to tackle him on the
01:12:24
blind side and he bumped me and I fell
01:12:27
back and then he stamped I don't think
01:12:30
it was on purpose but uh cuz I never
01:12:32
used to wear a m mouth guard. You didn't
01:12:35
have to in those days. And um my my uh
01:12:39
teeth, my front bottom went through my
01:12:41
lip here. He stamped on the thing and uh
01:12:45
left me lying on the ground and you know
01:12:47
they they ended up scoring a try and
01:12:48
then they went back and they were
01:12:50
waiting. Uh went back for our kickoff
01:12:52
for them and I was still getting treated
01:12:54
and Doc um Doc comes over and he goes,
01:12:57
"Oh shit." He goes, "Um, you'll be all
01:12:59
right. You'll be right. Don't worry.
01:13:00
It's just a you know, just a scratch or
01:13:02
something like that." So, uh, they put
01:13:04
some some, um, jelly, you know, the
01:13:08
bloody Vaseline on the cut and, uh, and
01:13:11
I got up and ran back to halfway and
01:13:14
everyone was waiting. This game had gone
01:13:16
on for ages. It was all over the place
01:13:17
and, you know, backwards and then I got
01:13:19
knocked over. Then they scored and then
01:13:20
they were waiting. When I got up and I
01:13:22
ran back to halfway ready for the
01:13:23
kickoff and I looked up, there was only
01:13:25
something like 3 minutes gone or or four
01:13:27
minutes gone in the game. I was
01:13:29
thinking,
01:13:31
how [ __ ] how am I going to blast this?
01:13:33
But uh our was all good.
01:13:36
>> And the 95 rugby world cup. Yeah. You
01:13:38
you mentioned Mark Ellis before being a
01:13:40
teammate. Um you played every single
01:13:42
game in that World Cup apart from the
01:13:44
game against Japan where he scored um a
01:13:46
record amount of tries. Six six tries.
01:13:48
Tries. Yeah. Um what was what are your
01:13:50
reflections on that tournament? Did you
01:13:52
get to meet Nelson Mandela?
01:13:53
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. Met him a couple of
01:13:55
times. Um only in um you know pretty
01:13:58
formal
01:13:58
>> like ceremonial handshake.
01:14:00
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But um and I think we
01:14:03
went to a yeah went to another you know
01:14:07
it was a function and it was a formal
01:14:08
function so it's not as if you really
01:14:10
got to interact with them or anything
01:14:12
but um that um the tournament was great
01:14:15
the um you know and being in in South
01:14:18
Africa I think that was the first time
01:14:20
that they were involved in it. Yeah. So
01:14:22
they weren't there in 91 or 87.
01:14:26
Yeah. So um you know that and they'd
01:14:29
been out of the game. They'd only come
01:14:30
back into the game a few years earlier,
01:14:33
but um you know after all that apart
01:14:35
>> so um it was really interesting place to
01:14:38
to actually go back to but um you know
01:14:42
in terms of that World Cup and the World
01:14:44
Cups are you know it was just the best
01:14:46
because you know you're there you're all
01:14:48
in the same place and you know it's the
01:14:50
best teams in the world the best players
01:14:52
in the world everyone's there you know
01:14:54
with obviously the goal of winning the
01:14:56
World Cup but when you're in a
01:14:57
tournament you know situation
01:14:59
and um and everything is going on around
01:15:01
you every day. It was [ __ ] It was
01:15:04
bloody awesome. Really, really
01:15:05
enjoyable. And the good part was that we
01:15:07
were
01:15:08
>> we were in a really good a really good
01:15:11
um vein, you know, of a of really good
01:15:14
form um a run of good form and uh had
01:15:18
great players. Um you know, we really
01:15:21
should have taken that out, but um you
01:15:23
know, you know what happened.
01:15:27
Yeah, when I had Lori on the podcast
01:15:28
last year, he talked about this and
01:15:29
talked about hiring private eyes and
01:15:32
bookies and Susie the waitress. Yeah.
01:15:35
Were you food poisoned? Yeah. How do you
01:15:36
reflect on that final?
01:15:38
>> Um,
01:15:40
you know, there was there was food
01:15:42
poisoning, but the the question is, you
01:15:44
know, was it deliberate? You know, who
01:15:46
if it was if it was deliberate, who did
01:15:48
it? And Lori think, you know, he seems
01:15:51
to think he's got the answer, but no one
01:15:53
really knows. Um,
01:15:55
>> it's kind of cool. That's one of those
01:15:56
great sporting mysteries.
01:15:57
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And
01:15:59
depending who you ask and you know South
01:16:00
Africans are like stupid. Yeah. Get over
01:16:03
it. And um it still comes up, you know,
01:16:07
quite often.
01:16:08
>> But um
01:16:09
>> Were you sick?
01:16:10
>> Yeah, I was a Yeah, I was a little bit
01:16:12
Well, see even that I I was a bit sick.
01:16:15
I had um I know I just had the bloody
01:16:17
diarrhea
01:16:18
>> and stuff. So then I went to doc and
01:16:20
asked him for some I just said I just
01:16:22
got some diarrhea and I think it was you
01:16:25
know it wasn't like the day the night
01:16:27
like the Friday night and then game on
01:16:29
Saturday I think it was earlier in the
01:16:30
week
01:16:32
>> and uh yeah I just went and got some had
01:16:35
a you know my gut was a bit off went to
01:16:37
doc and um and he said oh [ __ ] you know
01:16:40
and I think it was Craig Dow and Jeff
01:16:42
Wilson and you know there was there were
01:16:43
a few guys that were like really
01:16:45
struggling and then um
01:16:47
>> I would say most of the squad had had
01:16:49
some issues but it was it was more the
01:16:52
you know the preparation the training
01:16:54
the you know um
01:16:57
just the stuff the organization of the
01:17:00
uh of the week I think then you know
01:17:02
that started um started to unfold a
01:17:05
little bit but uh you know in we still
01:17:08
had opportunities to win the game in
01:17:09
terms of that um you know we had a few
01:17:11
guys but we had good guys coming off the
01:17:13
bench so you know still could have
01:17:15
worked in our favor but um
01:17:18
>> you know 30 odd years later. Uh I think
01:17:21
the right team won to be honest.
01:17:23
>> How how long does it Yeah. What's it
01:17:24
like after the game and how long does it
01:17:26
take you to get over a loss like that?
01:17:28
>> Oh, took a while. Took a while to get
01:17:31
over it properly, but um after the game,
01:17:34
you know, you have all the ceremonies.
01:17:35
You still have to have the the the the
01:17:37
prize giving and the ceremony and things
01:17:40
like that. And we weren't flying out, I
01:17:42
don't think, for
01:17:43
>> you know, three or four days after the
01:17:45
final. So um we sat ourselves down in
01:17:48
the team room and went for about three
01:17:51
or four days
01:17:52
>> just drowning the sorrows.
01:17:54
>> Yeah, basically.
01:17:55
>> Um but we went you know and there was a
01:17:57
lot of stuff happening. I think um who
01:17:59
was that Louis late
01:18:02
>> he was the he was the guy in charge of
01:18:04
South African rugby at the time. Mike
01:18:06
Brewer went up and abused him at the
01:18:07
thing and then abused the referee, you
01:18:10
know, accepted a gold watch or something
01:18:11
and, you know, there was all this other
01:18:13
stuff going on, but uh it takes you a
01:18:15
while to get over a a big, you know, a
01:18:17
thing like that. A World Cup is a pretty
01:18:19
big a pretty big thing to miss out on.
01:18:21
>> Well, I suppose you get you get back
01:18:22
home and you're so high profile at the
01:18:24
time, like every day someone's stopping
01:18:26
you to chat about it.
01:18:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. And it was
01:18:30
Yeah, it was amazing. And I think I
01:18:31
think too because we um you know we
01:18:34
played such good football up you know
01:18:37
during the um during the event and uh we
01:18:40
were clearly the the best team there but
01:18:43
you know you still got to win
01:18:44
everything.
01:18:44
>> Yeah. Um yeah we touched upon Mandela
01:18:47
before. I've got another iconic photo
01:18:49
here. Uh yourself with her you see the
01:18:51
queen and uh Sean Fitzpatrick and Jonah
01:18:54
Alu. Who's the guy on the who's the guy
01:18:56
in the corner? Is he with you guys or is
01:18:57
he
01:18:58
>> who's that guy? Is he Is he an all black
01:19:00
or is that part of the queen?
01:19:02
>> This guy here.
01:19:03
>> Yeah. Who's that?
01:19:04
>> I thought that was uh Oh, hang on. Let
01:19:08
me
01:19:08
>> chuck your glasses on. But I got
01:19:09
glasses. Are yours plus ones or are you
01:19:11
going
01:19:11
>> uh I don't even know actually.
01:19:16
>> Oh, it's um
01:19:20
what's his name? Oh [ __ ] Yep. He's in
01:19:23
all black.
01:19:24
>> Doesn't matter. I'll fact check it
01:19:25
later. But yeah, it's great. You and you
01:19:27
and Jonu and and the queen right there.
01:19:30
You met her on a couple of occasions
01:19:32
just y that's all that you see that's
01:19:34
the great thing to you know that rugy's
01:19:37
given you know you travel you you meet
01:19:40
so many people and um and and you don't
01:19:43
really see at the time you know it's
01:19:46
awesome you know we're going to the
01:19:47
we're going to the palace Buckingham
01:19:49
Palace meet the royal family it's fun
01:19:51
and it's good and but you know you're
01:19:53
always kind of focusing you got
01:19:54
something else to focus on you know in a
01:19:56
few days and in the next week or so Um
01:19:59
but uh you know the doors that it's open
01:20:03
you know that rugy's open the um
01:20:05
opportunity to travel I'm still
01:20:07
traveling for rugby you know now I'm
01:20:11
going to Angola actually in a in a
01:20:13
couple of months and um
01:20:16
you know a lot of people that that don't
01:20:18
really know who I am or you know know a
01:20:20
lot about rugby oh when did you play you
01:20:22
know oh [ __ ] 30 years ago people what Um
01:20:28
no the um the opportunities the um
01:20:33
ah just the experience you know
01:20:35
>> I was I was I remember being with Eric
01:20:37
Rush actually at um I don't know if it
01:20:39
was that time but h what's that guy's
01:20:42
name that's coming back to me in pieces
01:20:44
now Gordon um Gordon
01:20:48
>> we'll look it up online
01:20:50
>> yeah
01:20:51
but um I was with Rushy and we're at um
01:20:54
Buckingham Palace and uh you know, we're
01:20:57
all lined up and he comes the royal
01:20:59
family comes out and and he uh the
01:21:03
queen, you know, and Diana was there and
01:21:04
and Prince all of them were there, you
01:21:06
know, and we're all there and it's and
01:21:09
uh Queen's there. The only time I got
01:21:12
nervous was when the queen was around
01:21:13
for some reason. The rest of them you
01:21:14
can talk, you know, just it's ordinary
01:21:17
and then the queen turns up and you're
01:21:18
just like, "Oh shit." You know, you
01:21:20
straighten up and you kind of, you know,
01:21:22
hands out of your pockets and just
01:21:24
seemed to be the thing to do. And uh
01:21:27
afterwards Rushy goes he goes hey um cuz
01:21:30
I looked around. We we all standing in a
01:21:32
line and I kind of looked up you know
01:21:33
just the queen's coming here and I just
01:21:35
kind of looked up and I saw Rushy
01:21:36
looking at me. I was like then go back
01:21:38
to the queen. Oh yeah. And uh and I said
01:21:42
you know when uh when I was just about
01:21:43
to shake hands with the queen. He said
01:21:45
yeah. Said and you know I looked up and
01:21:48
you were looking at me and he goes and
01:21:50
you you know he was had a big smile on
01:21:51
his face kind of look. And I said what
01:21:54
you know and he goes [ __ ] He goes, "I
01:21:56
was just just at that moment." He goes,
01:21:58
"I was looking around." He goes, "And I
01:22:00
was thinking to myself, [ __ ] you know,
01:22:03
Buckingham Palace." He goes, "Man," he
01:22:05
goes, "I was looking at all the art on
01:22:06
the wall, and you know, we're inside
01:22:07
this room." And he goes, "And then I
01:22:09
looked, you know, I could the um the
01:22:11
other members of the royal family." And
01:22:13
he said, "And I just looked down." He
01:22:14
goes, "And I looked over at you and
01:22:15
there you were just about to shake hands
01:22:18
with the queen." And I was going, and he
01:22:20
said, and I thought to myself, "Fucking
01:22:21
hell, look at us." And he goes, you know
01:22:24
where we've come from. And he goes, and
01:22:26
then I thought to myself, he goes, and I
01:22:28
thought, [ __ ] hell, a moldi from
01:22:31
Otara and a [ __ ] coconut from a. And
01:22:34
he goes, and look at us. He goes, [ __ ]
01:22:35
look where we are. And I was going,
01:22:37
yeah. Oh, man. And then u I said, you
01:22:40
know, look how far we've come. And then
01:22:43
it became a bit of a thing. We're in New
01:22:46
York and we're at the Empire State
01:22:48
Building. It's like, look around.
01:22:50
Where's Russia?
01:22:52
you know, two guys from South Oakland
01:22:54
and then, you know, Eiffel Tower
01:22:57
brushing, you know, and it became a
01:22:59
thing everywhere. You go different
01:23:01
places and look around and there's my
01:23:04
South Oakland mate still bloody there.
01:23:06
>> Bro, that gave me goosebumps.
01:23:08
>> That's really really cool insight from
01:23:10
Rushy to have that um your level of uh
01:23:12
presence at the time to realize how you
01:23:14
know how how big it was.
01:23:15
>> Yeah, it says a lot about him actually.
01:23:17
He's, you know, I don't think Rashy's,
01:23:19
uh, you know, got as much credit as he,
01:23:21
as he deserves, like, you know, and even
01:23:23
now, so he's a lawyer.
01:23:25
>> He quit law when all the rugby when the
01:23:29
discussion was going on about the um,
01:23:31
you know, the where where the rugby
01:23:33
turns professional. Um, you know, the
01:23:36
what was that, Rupert Murdoch thing that
01:23:38
was um
01:23:40
>> Oh, that's right. Yeah. Um, what was it
01:23:42
called? Some rebel league.
01:23:43
>> Yeah, the rebel thing. Yeah. So um we
01:23:46
got so sick of having all these meetings
01:23:48
around it that we said right he goes you
01:23:52
know you're a lawyer said you go to all
01:23:54
the meetings and if it's good enough for
01:23:56
you then it's good enough for us and he
01:23:57
was going oh [ __ ] I don't want just you
01:23:59
know we've had enough sick of it so he
01:24:01
started going to the meetings and he
01:24:03
said it was just a nightmare just the
01:24:05
money so he basically quit law because
01:24:08
of that because of his experience around
01:24:10
that
01:24:11
>> and um he went and became a he painted
01:24:13
houses was with his father and then he
01:24:15
got into the supermarkets and stuff. So,
01:24:17
but um
01:24:18
>> no no he's [ __ ] he's been and he's been
01:24:20
there from the beginning me and we we um
01:24:24
we um debuted for Oakland on the same
01:24:26
day in the same game and um you know
01:24:30
he's bloody huge
01:24:32
>> incredible.
01:24:33
>> Yep. Yep. Done really really well for
01:24:34
himself and you know puts a lot back
01:24:36
into not just rugby but into his
01:24:38
community up there. And you know, as I
01:24:40
was saying about Jonah before, he's had,
01:24:42
>> you know, such such an impact on on so
01:24:44
many people.
01:24:46
>> Um, and King of the Sevens as well.
01:24:48
>> Exactly.
01:24:49
>> So much to do with um the Sevens. I've
01:24:51
got another photo here which is just
01:24:52
just iconic. Uh, it looks like a a looks
01:24:55
like a boy band.
01:24:57
>> So, who is it? Cully. Christian Cullen.
01:25:00
Uh, Jeff Wilson.
01:25:04
>> No. No. Cully's not there. That's Oh,
01:25:06
no. It is either little short.
01:25:07
>> He looks tiny. Yeah, I reckon I was
01:25:09
going to say that's Stewie Foster, but
01:25:11
it's not.
01:25:13
>> Look how well dressed you guys are. You
01:25:15
look like a boy band.
01:25:18
>> She Jonah with a big leather coat. Of
01:25:21
course, he had to have all the expensive
01:25:23
stuff.
01:25:23
>> Yeah. What was it like being in that
01:25:25
team environment when um these these
01:25:27
like absolute game changers and
01:25:29
superstars come along like first of all
01:25:31
first of all Jonah and then Kelly?
01:25:33
>> Yeah.
01:25:33
>> What's it like?
01:25:35
Um
01:25:36
well, you know what I was saying before
01:25:38
about, you know, having been in that um
01:25:41
>> lucky to be in that era, you know, when
01:25:43
those guys came along. I don't think
01:25:44
I've seen a better player than Christian
01:25:46
Cullen,
01:25:47
>> you know. Um
01:25:48
>> he's got to be, you know, as an
01:25:51
attacker, you know, the excitement that
01:25:53
he brought to the game, you know, he got
01:25:55
the ball and he just did magical things.
01:25:58
And um you know for a guy that um you
01:26:02
could barely get him out of bed. You
01:26:03
know he when we when we were touring you
01:26:06
know you you get up in the morning you
01:26:08
go and you train in that kid go back and
01:26:10
go straight back to bed and you know you
01:26:12
get up at oh I'm going to lunch where oh
01:26:15
what are you guys doing? Oh I'm going to
01:26:16
lunch and then the you know boys are
01:26:18
going to go and play golf or we're going
01:26:19
to go down such and such and he goes nah
01:26:21
[ __ ] that I can't be. And he basically
01:26:24
he he train in the morning, he'd have
01:26:26
lunch and then he'd go back to bed for
01:26:27
the rest of the day. And you know his
01:26:29
touring was was kind of all like that.
01:26:32
Um and you couldn't get boo out of him,
01:26:34
you know.
01:26:35
>> He was so shy.
01:26:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. But now you you know he you
01:26:39
listen to him and he knows what he's
01:26:40
talking about, you know. So um
01:26:42
>> yeah, I think I was mates with him in
01:26:44
partners to North at the beginning of
01:26:46
his career and um I remember when he
01:26:48
broke onto the scene, a lot of people
01:26:49
thought he was like dumb or something,
01:26:50
but he he wasn't dumb. He was just
01:26:51
really shy.
01:26:52
>> Yeah, exactly.
01:26:53
>> Super super shy. And he's he's um always
01:26:55
spoken very highly of you. Like I think
01:26:56
he found it really hard to be accepted
01:26:58
in that all black environment at the
01:26:59
time. Like it wasn't
01:27:01
>> as an inclusive environment as what it
01:27:03
potentially is now.
01:27:04
>> Um back then you had to sort of earn
01:27:06
your stripes and prove yourself. But um
01:27:08
he was always really appreciative of how
01:27:09
you treated him.
01:27:10
>> Oh, that's nice to hear. Oh, yeah. I
01:27:12
always wondered about that. You know,
01:27:13
that uh um the back seat, you know, all
01:27:16
of that culture.
01:27:17
>> Yeah. That that culture was Yeah. was
01:27:19
never any good. I mean there's there's
01:27:21
no reason to why why would you do that
01:27:23
you know and um but you know no he he
01:27:27
certainly came in and and proved himself
01:27:29
and you know you he's he's up there with
01:27:31
the best ever that guy
01:27:33
>> but you know so so Jonah you know Kelly
01:27:37
Jonah who just came in and just
01:27:40
>> rock star yeah just ripped things to
01:27:43
pieces you know Jonah and for a kid a a
01:27:46
young island boy from South Oakland who,
01:27:49
you know, he went from nowhere to just,
01:27:52
as you say, the rockstar and uh and
01:27:55
then, you know, the the influence that
01:27:57
he's had on on the game, on the, you
01:28:00
know, young guys, you know, who've come,
01:28:02
you know, years and years. I was in
01:28:04
Egypt. I did a um intrepid journeys
01:28:06
thing there. And uh and it was when they
01:28:11
were overthrowing the um the government
01:28:13
over there. And um
01:28:15
>> oh man, it was huge. It was it was
01:28:17
awesome place at the time, you know, to
01:28:19
be
01:28:20
>> it was scary as anything, but you know,
01:28:22
to be in there was like really exciting
01:28:23
in there. And we'd go up to people
01:28:26
>> and you're you know, interviewing or
01:28:28
whatever. I go and ask a question about
01:28:29
and be like, um, where you from? You
01:28:33
know, oh, New Zealand. And people, you
01:28:35
know, this in the middle of [ __ ] of
01:28:37
Egypt. Um, New Zealand. Oh, Lu Lomu. and
01:28:41
you just go [ __ ] they got no idea
01:28:44
about you know about New Zealand as a
01:28:46
whole but um you know the impact that he
01:28:48
had you know changed the game changed
01:28:51
the the rugby I guess the landscape and
01:28:53
still is you know for for good. So, um,
01:28:57
that guy and then he, you know, he turns
01:28:59
up and people used to used to tease us.
01:29:02
Oh, [ __ ] You know, your game plan is
01:29:04
get the ball to Jonah as quick as
01:29:06
possible. And then, of course, it is.
01:29:09
What's your problem?
01:29:10
>> Yeah, exactly.
01:29:11
And yeah, get the ball to Jonah as quick
01:29:13
as possible. Back him up. Done.
01:29:15
>> Oh, yeah. Lori told me some story about
01:29:17
you you you setting Jonah up for a try
01:29:18
and it was some move that you practiced
01:29:20
in training, but it wasn't supposed to
01:29:21
be used. It's called the double dummy.
01:29:24
Oh, hang. I've got it written down.
01:29:29
>> There's some some move uh the double
01:29:31
dummy cut. Does that mean anything to
01:29:33
you?
01:29:34
>> His memor is good for 80, isn't it?
01:29:36
>> Yeah, I reckon apparently some some move
01:29:38
you came up with for training which was
01:29:39
never supposed to be used for a game and
01:29:41
it was like to keep things exciting for
01:29:42
Jonah. And then uh Colin Maids or Earl
01:29:45
Curtain said to Lori, "Do you think
01:29:46
Frank's doing the double dummy cut?" And
01:29:48
he goes, "No, he wouldn't [ __ ] dare."
01:29:50
And apparently you you did it. You gave
01:29:52
the ball to Jonah. He scored and
01:29:53
>> Oh yeah.
01:29:54
>> Yeah.
01:29:55
>> Sounds about right.
01:29:56
>> Still holding a grudge.
01:29:58
>> Exactly.
01:29:59
>> With uh with Jonah, you know, you go
01:30:02
Jonah, you know. So you set up, you set,
01:30:05
say there's a scrum or something. You
01:30:07
sit and you go Jonah, you know, um come
01:30:09
out, you know, outside Mertz or come,
01:30:11
you know. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. And
01:30:13
then get the ball and you run and you'd
01:30:15
beat people and you know, I don't know,
01:30:17
run 20 m or something and do and then
01:30:20
get tackled. You get it back and go back
01:30:23
to his wing and you know the play would
01:30:25
go on. Say the ball goes out. Okay,
01:30:28
Jonah. And he goes, I can't. I can't. We
01:30:30
go. What's wrong? Injured. No, no, no. I
01:30:34
can't. I can't get there. You know, I'm
01:30:36
tired. Just [ __ ] get there. [ __ ]
01:30:39
you know, and then he'd do it and he'd
01:30:43
do, you know, he'd run 30 meters and
01:30:44
beat six players and then, you know, get
01:30:46
dragged down just before or or he'd go
01:30:48
through and score, you know, and then he
01:30:50
come running back and he go, "Fucking
01:30:52
hell, I can't do it. I can't do it. You
01:30:54
can do it."
01:30:55
>> You know, he's he always had a little a
01:30:57
little doubt, you know. I think it was
01:30:58
more his fitness, not his ability. But,
01:31:00
um, you know, you always, you know, you
01:31:02
always worry, oh [ __ ] can I get there?
01:31:04
Can I do? And um you just had to bloody,
01:31:08
you know, that was that Brown brother
01:31:10
thing to that island, you know, you
01:31:11
could talk to him like that just [ __ ]
01:31:13
you know.
01:31:13
>> Yeah. Cuz you're quite a bit older as
01:31:15
well. And yeah, Lori talked about this
01:31:16
how much he respected you guys.
01:31:18
>> He um Yeah, he told me he um roommed you
01:31:21
guys together once. Jonah was struggling
01:31:23
with his weight. So he roommed you with
01:31:25
Jonah so that you could be like his food
01:31:27
police.
01:31:28
>> Yeah. As if I was going to be his food
01:31:30
police.
01:31:32
Lori was his food police. But Jonah was
01:31:34
eating, you know, 12 eggs or something,
01:31:36
10 eggs at breakfast time.
01:31:39
But no, he um yeah, he he you know, we
01:31:43
were his buffer, you know, lorries to to
01:31:45
Jonah. But um Jonah respected him, you
01:31:49
know, fully. Uh it was just a
01:31:51
communication thing, you know. M
01:31:53
>> um Jonah, young, you know, brown island
01:31:57
boy from South Oakland. Lori, older
01:32:00
white guy from I don't know where the
01:32:02
hell he was from.
01:32:03
>> Southland. So, you know, those two were
01:32:06
never going to meet, you know.
01:32:08
>> No, no way to communicate with.
01:32:10
>> No, no. Lot a lot in common, but you
01:32:12
know, it's just a matter of, you know,
01:32:14
how you going to communicate things. And
01:32:15
that that went both ways as well.
01:32:18
>> Jonah was um like notoriously generous.
01:32:21
like it's it's infamous the stories you
01:32:22
hear about him buying cars for young
01:32:24
players at super rugby franchises and um
01:32:27
picking up like a ghetto blaster in
01:32:29
every new town for the team bus or the
01:32:31
hotel room. Did you ever try and like
01:32:33
talk him out of being so
01:32:36
>> nah shell? No [ __ ] I've still got two
01:32:38
cars in it.
01:32:41
He bought me my teeter.
01:32:45
No,
01:32:47
I um
01:32:49
now I just let him, you know, I there's
01:32:52
no way I was ever going to tell him not
01:32:54
to do things. I was, you know, you you
01:32:55
can give advice. You can say, you know,
01:32:58
there's no need to be to, you know, like
01:33:01
the, you know, the the music, that side
01:33:04
of things. There's no need to buy,
01:33:06
>> you know, go out and buy things for that
01:33:08
and and uh, you know, big bloody boom
01:33:11
boxes and you don't have to buy a new
01:33:13
and you don't have to buy someone some
01:33:14
headphones and you don't, you know, it's
01:33:16
all that sort of stuff. But he was
01:33:19
>> his own man.
01:33:19
>> He was his own man. Yeah. And I think
01:33:21
too he um, you know, he hadn't come from
01:33:24
money,
01:33:25
>> but he also he, you know, he had a
01:33:27
pocket full of money at the time and he
01:33:29
was making more money than everybody
01:33:31
else and he just that was just his
01:33:33
nature. M. So
01:33:35
>> yeah, he sounds like the loveliest guy.
01:33:36
I I had Steve Divine on the Did you Did
01:33:39
you overlap with Steve Divine? Yeah. And
01:33:40
he he told a story. Um you were in
01:33:42
Transit in LA and he had um the hacker
01:33:45
burned on a a like a CD cuz he wanted to
01:33:48
learn the hacker for his debut. Um so he
01:33:50
was in the duty free store looking for a
01:33:52
discman and Jonah was like, "Oh, just
01:33:54
yeah, just borrow mine." And then at the
01:33:56
end of the trip he went to give it back
01:33:57
to Jonah and Jonah was like, "No, man,
01:33:58
just keep it."
01:33:59
>> And um those discs discman were like
01:34:01
a,000 bucks back then. Yeah, it's just
01:34:03
nothing to him.
01:34:04
>> Yeah. When we were rooming together cuz
01:34:06
I used to get Jonah to um carry my bags
01:34:09
and stuff like that. That was all part
01:34:10
of the seniority.
01:34:12
>> Yeah. And um he'd come up and you know
01:34:17
put the bags in and you go up to the
01:34:19
room and he's lying on the bed cuz back
01:34:22
in the day you know you had a a double
01:34:24
bed or whatever it was and then a single
01:34:25
bed. You'd come in and he's lying on the
01:34:28
double bed and just like hey what the
01:34:30
[ __ ] and he's like, "Oh, see my bed."
01:34:33
Oh, well, sorry. Then he off onto the
01:34:36
other bed and and lie there and um he
01:34:38
he'd spend his time, but you know, you
01:34:40
wake up in the middle of the night and
01:34:41
look over and he's got the music
01:34:43
blasting and his but his feet are
01:34:46
hanging over the edge and stuff like
01:34:47
that. It's just like but he used to go
01:34:49
up and after training
01:34:52
um you know, you going to have a you
01:34:54
going to have a shower or um bubble
01:34:55
bath, you know, after training. I said,
01:34:58
"Oh, I might do a bubble bath,
01:35:00
actually." Okay. So, he'd go up and he'd
01:35:02
run me the bubble bath and stuff like
01:35:03
that and then make me a cup of tea and
01:35:05
bring me biscuits and you know, see, I'm
01:35:09
talking 30 years ago, too. But, um, you
01:35:12
know how they used to have little
01:35:14
cookies or something?
01:35:14
>> Yeah. Wrapped up in the hotel room.
01:35:16
Yeah.
01:35:17
>> So, he'd bring those and you go, "Fuck,
01:35:18
come on, man." He'd run down the shop
01:35:20
and come back with some nicer biscuits
01:35:22
and stuff like that. And
01:35:24
>> Oh, that's so cool.
01:35:25
>> Always fun. And it must have been a
01:35:27
really special relationship because um
01:35:29
yeah, you were a a pbearer at his
01:35:31
funeral. Another iconic photo I've got
01:35:32
here. Uh Manu.
01:35:34
>> Yeah.
01:35:35
>> Is that Joel Vader?
01:35:36
>> Yep.
01:35:37
>> Yeah. Yourself. Not sure who's just
01:35:39
behind you, but that looks like Sir
01:35:41
Michael Jones and maybe um maybe a
01:35:43
Ronnie Clark as well.
01:35:45
>> Oh, Dylan Mika.
01:35:46
>> Oh, Dylan Mika.
01:35:47
>> Yep.
01:35:48
>> Michael Jones.
01:35:50
Yeah. Not too sure who that is. too
01:35:53
early.
01:35:54
>> Do you remember when you heard about um
01:35:56
his passing? Because it was quite
01:35:57
sudden, wasn't it?
01:35:59
>> Yeah. Um
01:36:04
>> jeez,
01:36:04
>> I think he'd been over in the UK doing
01:36:05
some promo work for Heineken or American
01:36:08
Express or something and then just sort
01:36:09
of came back.
01:36:11
>> I can't even remember who told me to be
01:36:13
honest.
01:36:14
>> But um even just looking at that photo,
01:36:16
you know, Joel's gone. Dylan Mik's gone.
01:36:19
>> Yeah.
01:36:22
Well, he's not gone, but he's
01:36:23
>> he was gone for a couple of years.
01:36:27
>> No, he seems to be in a good place now.
01:36:29
I saw a boxing fight over the weekend.
01:36:31
He did really well.
01:36:31
>> I saw that. Yeah.
01:36:32
>> Yeah.
01:36:33
>> But, uh, no, no. Yeah, Jonah's and, you
01:36:36
know, a lot of that cuz no one even
01:36:39
really knew he was sick,
01:36:41
>> you know, and he went through all of his
01:36:42
all black stuff, you know, having
01:36:45
carrying that um those issues. M um
01:36:49
you know he could have man imagine
01:36:52
um had he been 100% imagine what he
01:36:56
would have been
01:36:58
>> otherwise. Yeah. Yeah.
01:37:00
>> Um but yeah jeez
01:37:03
>> I can't remember I can't remember where
01:37:05
uh
01:37:06
where I was even when I when I heard
01:37:09
>> but um yeah you know at 40 he was
01:37:13
>> Yeah.
01:37:14
>> Yeah.
01:37:14
>> Yeah. painfully young.
01:37:16
>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And uh but I
01:37:18
knew he was struggling. You know, he
01:37:19
he'd made a made a few comebacks to
01:37:21
rugby and things like that and not never
01:37:24
really, you know, worked, I guess. But
01:37:27
um you know, it says a lot for him
01:37:29
because, you know, he was still getting
01:37:31
contracts and things like that from
01:37:32
>> Yeah.
01:37:33
>> You know, even even if it didn't work
01:37:34
for them on the field necessarily,
01:37:37
>> you know, the um
01:37:38
>> association with Jonah in their club
01:37:40
room, you know, was, you know, was more
01:37:42
than more than about rugby, I guess, to
01:37:44
be honest. But um he's he's a one in a
01:37:47
million, you know, and
01:37:49
>> I
01:37:52
you'd have to say that he was, you know,
01:37:54
he's he's been the best. He's, you know,
01:37:57
like the best ever, I think. And and not
01:37:59
just purely in ability, but just the way
01:38:01
he changed things, um changed the
01:38:04
trajectory
01:38:06
of uh you know, of the game of the the
01:38:09
professional game, you know, and put it
01:38:11
out there into the into the world. And I
01:38:13
was um when we were rooming together,
01:38:15
you know, we'd come home um from
01:38:18
wherever, from a day out or training or
01:38:20
whatever. And the number of letters, the
01:38:23
the amount of mail that was in our room,
01:38:26
you know, fan mail for Jonah was man, it
01:38:30
was just so it was crazy.
01:38:32
>> Wow.
01:38:33
>> Yep. And you know sometimes you would
01:38:34
push the door open and you know the
01:38:37
envelopes get stuck under the door and
01:38:38
it's like oh but you know just fan mail
01:38:42
people outside the rooms all the you
01:38:44
know I felt sorry for him actually a lot
01:38:46
of the time because he was he was shy as
01:38:48
well young shy and um but so much
01:38:52
attention you know and I think it was um
01:38:56
I I think it was pretty tough for him
01:38:57
you know to to get through that
01:38:59
>> but um on the field you know he'll
01:39:02
always be remembered for jeez that 95
01:39:04
World Cup I guess.
01:39:05
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:07
>> Was it No. Oh yeah. 95 where he ran over
01:39:10
Mike Cat.
01:39:11
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:11
>> Yeah. With the with the um Yeah. The
01:39:13
infamous um Keith Quinn
01:39:14
>> quote. Exactly.
01:39:16
>> Apparently he dropped his paper or
01:39:17
something. So he had something that he
01:39:19
was going to he was going to say, but he
01:39:21
dropped his notes. So he just went, "Oh,
01:39:24
love."
01:39:25
>> Yeah. It must have been um strange for
01:39:27
you like being um so close being like a
01:39:29
mate to him. And there's some stuff that
01:39:30
he went through and it hasn't aged
01:39:32
particularly well. Like um like when he
01:39:33
got married without inviting his parents
01:39:35
and then he had to go on like a
01:39:36
nationwide go on the homes show to
01:39:38
apologize along with John Hart.
01:39:40
>> You look back now it's none of anyone's
01:39:42
[ __ ] business.
01:39:43
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No,
01:39:45
>> but I think too that was um you know
01:39:47
early days of professional
01:39:50
>> you know professionalism or professional
01:39:52
rugby and uh no you know it was that
01:39:55
learning that learning curve you know
01:39:57
where nobody really knew the only thing
01:39:59
we had to go by was you know was um the
01:40:02
closest thing was rugby league
01:40:04
>> you know in Australia and you know
01:40:06
they've had their issues over the years
01:40:09
um and I guess they took what they took
01:40:11
from American football who's you know
01:40:13
which is even worse But uh yeah, it was
01:40:16
it was all a a huge learning curve and
01:40:18
you had to you know a lot of people did
01:40:21
things that they probably would never
01:40:23
even contemplate now.
01:40:24
>> Yeah.
01:40:25
>> Yeah. You just say no. I'm not you know
01:40:27
imagine imagine now you know I need you
01:40:30
to come on and explain yourself on
01:40:32
television at 6:00 and or 7 sharp. You
01:40:34
know
01:40:35
>> with the coach sitting next to you.
01:40:36
Yeah. It's unthinkable.
01:40:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. You'd be like what the [ __ ]
01:40:40
What was your do you think your proudest
01:40:42
moment as an or
01:40:48
um
01:40:50
um
01:40:55
I don't know actually if I had the
01:40:58
probably the fact that I actually made
01:41:00
it, you know.
01:41:02
>> Oh, you didn't just make it though. Like
01:41:04
um making it is one thing but then 55
01:41:07
tests and being considered as one of the
01:41:08
greats.
01:41:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm pretty proud
01:41:11
pretty proud of that when I look back on
01:41:13
that. Um
01:41:14
>> and the fact that uh the fact that it is
01:41:17
kind of still going, you know, what I
01:41:19
still get asked to do stuff because of
01:41:21
that.
01:41:22
>> So, um you know, I'm I'm proud of what I
01:41:26
achieved and when I look back now and
01:41:28
and everything that I've done, you know,
01:41:30
and um that's, you know, you said, do I
01:41:33
reminisce at the beginning? And yeah, I
01:41:35
do. And this is the reason why. It's
01:41:37
because you get to remember and you know
01:41:39
you bring up things that that um you
01:41:41
know I haven't thought about for years
01:41:43
or I've never no one else has ever
01:41:45
brought up you know and that sort of
01:41:46
stuff
01:41:47
>> and but they're good memories.
01:41:48
Everything is good you know there's
01:41:51
there were obviously they were tough
01:41:52
parts but
01:41:54
>> by the by the most part
01:41:56
>> you look back and they're good memories.
01:41:58
>> Yeah they're great and you know people
01:41:59
that you meet
01:42:01
>> and you will know them for the rest of
01:42:03
your life. You know, another thing I'll
01:42:06
go on about Rushy, but Rushy goes, he
01:42:08
goes, "You got no friends?" You know,
01:42:10
you move, say you move to a new country,
01:42:12
he goes, "You got no friends." And he
01:42:14
goes, "Go to your local rugby club." He
01:42:16
goes, "You'll have [ __ ] hundred
01:42:18
friends just like that." And that's the
01:42:20
beauty of the game where you can travel
01:42:22
the world and you can turn up somewhere,
01:42:24
you know, you find a rugby club and you
01:42:26
go down there and they go, "Oh, you
01:42:28
know, where you from?" And New Zealand
01:42:29
is another is, you know, opens doors for
01:42:32
you. But you go down and Oh, yeah.
01:42:34
Played in New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Dad,
01:42:36
come over here. You know,
01:42:37
>> great way,
01:42:39
>> especially if you wear one of your old
01:42:40
jerseys. Have Have you still Have you
01:42:41
got your jerseys anywhere? Have you got
01:42:43
any Are you a memorabilia guy?
01:42:45
>> Um, no, not really. Not really. I've um
01:42:48
I've got a suitcase of,
01:42:51
you know, every now and then, you know,
01:42:53
if you move home or you doing clean up
01:42:56
at home or something like that and you
01:42:58
you pull out boxes and suitcases and
01:43:00
stuff like that and some of my jerseys,
01:43:03
you open the suitcase and I've still got
01:43:05
an all black suitcase from the ' 90s,
01:43:08
you know, which has got them all in
01:43:09
there.
01:43:10
>> Open it up, dust and crap everywhere.
01:43:12
It's like you pull out jersey and you
01:43:14
go, "Oh, yeah." But, you know, they've
01:43:16
been in there for 30 years, for 20 years
01:43:18
since I got them. And I've every now and
01:43:21
then you go, "Oh, [ __ ] That's right.
01:43:23
Oh, [ __ ] This Yeah. Then you put them
01:43:25
back and then you, you know, forget
01:43:26
about them.
01:43:27
>> Forget about them again." So, I've got
01:43:30
I'm recently, you know, going through um
01:43:33
a big big clean out and stuff and and
01:43:36
you know, there's all these photos and,
01:43:38
you know, just programs and things like
01:43:40
that that I didn't even you know, I
01:43:43
wasn't I'm not a collector by any means,
01:43:45
but you know, these things come back and
01:43:46
you just pick them up and it's like,
01:43:48
"Oh, that's right. Forgot about that.
01:43:50
Forgot about that."
01:43:51
>> And
01:43:51
>> so, you're not a framer. There's none of
01:43:53
them framed on the walls?
01:43:54
>> Nah. Um, not really. I gave I gave, you
01:43:57
know, a lot of my all black jerseys to
01:43:59
rugby clubs and things like that and oh,
01:44:01
>> charity fundraisers, auctions,
01:44:03
>> they'll put them on the wall. Buck
01:44:04
Shelfford said to me, um, you know, uh,
01:44:09
give your stuff away. He goes, you know,
01:44:11
he goes, cuz he said the same thing and
01:44:12
he goes, you know, he goes, I've got an
01:44:14
all black tracksuit from 1986. And he
01:44:16
goes, what the [ __ ] use is that? You
01:44:17
know, [ __ ] goes, what am I going to
01:44:19
do with a [ __ ] You go, oh yeah. He
01:44:21
goes and then you know say so you
01:44:23
someone comes and asks you and you go oh
01:44:25
no I don't want to give this he goes and
01:44:27
you know I should have given it he goes
01:44:29
give your stuff away to you know people
01:44:31
raising money for charity you know all
01:44:33
of that sort of stuff he goes cuz you
01:44:35
know it's going to be no use to you in
01:44:36
30 you know 50 years and stuff and and
01:44:39
he's right I've got a couple you know
01:44:40
I've got my all black cap um
01:44:43
>> and I've got a I still got a couple of
01:44:45
older jerseys you know that um uh you
01:44:49
know the first ones
01:44:50
>> yeah Um but uh
01:44:52
>> that's all you need. A couple of key
01:44:53
pieces.
01:44:54
>> Yeah, exactly.
01:44:55
>> Um how did you find the adjustment to
01:44:56
life after rugby? I'm just thinking like
01:44:58
some of the stuff we've talked about,
01:45:00
you know, like like meeting the queen,
01:45:02
you know, being in New York with Rashy
01:45:03
and all all these big things. I just
01:45:06
wonder after that if if life seems to
01:45:09
lack a bit of color.
01:45:10
>> Yeah, exactly.
01:45:12
>> You know, the pace of life just feels so
01:45:13
slow so slow after that.
01:45:15
>> Well, that's the thing, too. You know,
01:45:16
I've I've enjoyed that. I've been there.
01:45:18
I've enjoyed it. But, you know, I don't
01:45:21
necessar I don't have to be the leader
01:45:22
of the pack anymore. I don't have to,
01:45:25
you know, I I don't look for excitement
01:45:27
and stuff like that. But, um,
01:45:31
oh, when you first finish it, I I
01:45:34
struggled.
01:45:35
>> Um, and I wasn't sure why, but you know,
01:45:38
I I struggled to relationships and
01:45:42
things like that. Um, you know, even
01:45:44
holding relationships. Um I went so I
01:45:47
finished here and even the way I
01:45:49
finished was you know wasn't great. Um
01:45:52
because I I'd kind of come to the end
01:45:55
and I knew it in my mind and I John Hart
01:45:59
had came in and uh you know we we talked
01:46:02
um he said you know you let me know when
01:46:04
you you know when you're ready when
01:46:06
things are when things are ready when
01:46:08
the time is right he said and we'll
01:46:09
manage your you know your exit.
01:46:12
>> I was like okay. Then you go through all
01:46:14
of this and and uh I was thinking to
01:46:17
myself and it was I just couldn't be
01:46:19
bothered going through the you know the
01:46:21
the buildup to test matches and stuff. I
01:46:24
could I was still fine physically but
01:46:26
mentally I kind of wasn't there anymore.
01:46:29
I didn't want to go to you know to
01:46:30
Wellington say you know for the whole
01:46:33
week and prepare to play a game. Um I
01:46:36
was still fine playing the games but
01:46:38
that's not how it works. So, you know,
01:46:41
>> oh, you wanted the Saturday, but not the
01:46:42
Monday to Friday.
01:46:43
>> Yeah. Can I just come down on Saturday
01:46:45
morning?
01:46:46
>> Yeah. And so, all of that, you know,
01:46:48
that makes
01:46:49
>> sense. Yeah. There was just a whole lot
01:46:50
going on. I just said, "Ah, can't be
01:46:51
bothered anymore." And, uh, then I
01:46:54
started and Joe Stanley actually, um, he
01:46:57
was a player agent and he rang me up and
01:46:59
go, "Oh, got a couple of um a couple of
01:47:01
offers, inquiries about you, uh, for
01:47:04
you." And, uh, one was in France and and
01:47:07
one was, where was the other one? in
01:47:09
England. But um I thought, "Oh, France,
01:47:13
you know, always had a bit of a, you
01:47:15
know, interest in France, another
01:47:16
culture, you know, all of that sort of
01:47:18
stuff." I thought, "Well, yeah, it
01:47:20
sounds right." So, we decided that we'd
01:47:22
go up, go to France. It was going to be
01:47:25
really, really tight because um we had
01:47:26
an all black trial coming up and uh so
01:47:30
we thought, "Ah, we'll sneak it in.
01:47:31
We'll get up there." Football World Cup
01:47:34
was on in France at the same time. So,
01:47:36
this was late 90s and uh so we thought
01:47:40
we'll get up there. We'll do what we
01:47:42
have to do up there. See if it's going
01:47:44
to work. If not, we'll still make it
01:47:46
back in time so that I can play in the
01:47:47
um in the all black trial.
01:47:49
>> Yep. Flew up there. Um strike, airline
01:47:54
strikes, um lost baggage, all of this
01:47:58
stuff. pilots went on strike because of
01:48:00
the football world cup and they wanted I
01:48:02
don't know we just so ended up missing
01:48:06
oh I got back like a couple of days
01:48:08
before the trial but John Hart was
01:48:11
ringing in you know was um the media it
01:48:14
was all this speculation anyway and uh
01:48:17
we'd been avoiding John Hart and uh John
01:48:20
Hart and Joe Stanley are tight you know
01:48:22
they're like that when they finally come
01:48:25
through and
01:48:28
The phone rings. Oh, now Hardy was
01:48:31
talking to uh to um Joe and we went we
01:48:34
you know did all this stuff in France.
01:48:36
Hardy was talking to Joe and then um I I
01:48:40
don't think I was there at the time but
01:48:41
he came back and he goes you need to
01:48:43
ring um you need to ring Hardy tell him
01:48:47
you know what's going on. I was like oh
01:48:48
[ __ ] I didn't want to cuz you know
01:48:51
conflict you know I'm not really a
01:48:53
conflict person but uh so anyway the
01:48:56
next next day and I rang him up and I
01:48:59
thought h morning in New Zealand okay
01:49:03
his his uh secretary or whoever was
01:49:05
she'll answer the phone that'll break
01:49:07
the the ice a little bit and then pass
01:49:09
it on. Okay
01:49:12
John Hart speaking. I was frank
01:49:15
that was good. Oh. Um. Uh. Oh, Hardy.
01:49:18
Uh, Frank. Frank Buds. And [ __ ] there
01:49:20
was like on TV, you know, where I held
01:49:24
it. He just went for it. I held it back
01:49:26
and he was swearing and I was going like
01:49:27
this and Joe was going, "Oh, fuck." And
01:49:29
he was he goes, "Fuck it." Then when he
01:49:32
calmed down, just chatted to him. He
01:49:34
goes, "Oh, it's um" He goes, "I've had
01:49:37
to [ __ ] lie to the media. I've had to
01:49:39
tell, you know, and I've had to I don't
01:49:40
do." He goes, "Fucking hell. How do you
01:49:42
think this looks?" Which was fair
01:49:44
enough. I was in here. Um
01:49:47
yeah. And anyway, we got back and when
01:49:49
we we flew back and we had to have a
01:49:50
meeting at the airport, Joe went to come
01:49:53
in and he went, "No, you're not you're
01:49:55
not welcome." So, he waited outside. We
01:49:58
had a meeting and he said, "I can't I
01:49:59
can't play you in the I can't play you
01:50:01
in the um trial." He said, "You know,
01:50:03
you've just got back and two days later
01:50:05
we're supposed I can't I can't do it.
01:50:06
It's not fair."
01:50:07
>> I said, "Oh, that's all right." He goes,
01:50:09
"Fuck it." Said that was how my all
01:50:11
black career ended
01:50:12
>> and uh that was the way it was. So it
01:50:15
leaves leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
01:50:16
You have this amazing career and then it
01:50:18
just sort of ends with um like a like a
01:50:20
like a disappointment.
01:50:21
>> Yeah. Yeah, it did. But uh um Hardy um
01:50:25
he he apologized to me actually probably
01:50:28
a few years later. But um
01:50:30
>> you know he um just the way that it all
01:50:32
happened. But I you know it was my fault
01:50:34
as well. Um he said I could have done
01:50:36
things better but it was a lot of
01:50:37
emotion at the time and anyway it worked
01:50:40
out. But um I in saying that I I did
01:50:44
struggle after that because you do
01:50:47
something your whole life you know and
01:50:48
and especially when the game not not
01:50:51
even when it went professional but with
01:50:52
the All Blacks you know and rugby you've
01:50:56
got your week you prepare for something
01:50:58
on the weekend right done next week same
01:51:01
thing done next week and you know that's
01:51:03
most of your year and uh when you're
01:51:06
doing that and it's all fully controlled
01:51:09
you know you got to be there at this
01:51:10
time. You got to need this, you got to
01:51:12
do this. Yep. Yep. Yep.
01:51:13
>> And uh one day it's not there
01:51:15
>> and you kind of you're a little bit
01:51:18
lost.
01:51:19
>> So, you know, I went through I went
01:51:20
through probably a good few years of
01:51:23
trying to find myself, you know, and as
01:51:24
I was saying, relationships, went to
01:51:26
France in the end, got injured, and then
01:51:29
I was, you know, that was all over the
01:51:31
place as well. And um I kind of never
01:51:33
really settled down, man. Probably
01:51:36
probably 5 years after after that. Do
01:51:39
you think in hindsight there was like an
01:51:41
element of depression there?
01:51:42
>> Possibly. Yep. Yep. You know, you're
01:51:46
kind of lost and but I I also found that
01:51:50
I I missed um I missed the physical
01:51:53
there was no out I had no outlet you
01:51:55
know um I missed getting knocked around
01:51:57
and you know trained the physical aspect
01:51:59
of of all of that and u you kind of you
01:52:02
know you're always you know it's just
01:52:05
like you know what what's going what's
01:52:07
wrong? what's a big part of your your
01:52:09
life and your identity and who you are
01:52:11
as a person and suddenly it's no longer
01:52:12
there. How how do you rebuild and find
01:52:14
out what what the next chapter's going
01:52:16
to be?
01:52:17
>> Um you
01:52:20
and this is the advice that that um you
01:52:23
know the young guys are getting now. You
01:52:26
plan you plan before you you
01:52:29
>> before it's time before you retire. You
01:52:31
know it's pretty hard to retire and then
01:52:34
figure it out. So, um,
01:52:36
>> it takes time just to build something
01:52:37
new, doesn't it?
01:52:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, think about it
01:52:39
now. You know, if you're if like a young
01:52:42
guy who's, you know, who's in right in
01:52:44
the middle of his career now, everything
01:52:46
seems rosy, but it comes around really,
01:52:49
really quick as you know, and, uh, you
01:52:51
know, your your age, your, you know,
01:52:53
circumstances change. So, um, start
01:52:56
planning now, start thinking about
01:52:58
things now. And, yeah, you know, I was
01:53:00
lost for for ages. And I think I think a
01:53:03
lot of the training now uh I think
01:53:06
they're doing the right things for the
01:53:07
um you know for the young guys with um
01:53:10
giving them options you know and and
01:53:12
there's there's dedicated people in
01:53:15
terms of careers and and the after you
01:53:18
know the aftermath of of rugby. And um
01:53:21
again we were the guinea pigs you know
01:53:23
and at the beginning and then at the end
01:53:25
you're kind of you are you are left on
01:53:28
your own um you know as a as an ex
01:53:31
player. um getting a bit better now.
01:53:34
There's there are some some avenues that
01:53:36
you can uh you can take but um you know
01:53:40
everything was a learning curve the
01:53:42
beginning all through the the the the
01:53:45
beginning the the early years of
01:53:47
professional rugby and then how it ends
01:53:50
for you. So um
01:53:52
>> you know that's the hard part and and
01:53:54
you know a lot of for a lot of guys it
01:53:55
hasn't ended well.
01:53:58
>> It's tough isn't it? So, um, what has
01:54:00
life post rugby looked like for you?
01:54:02
You've done small businesses and stuff.
01:54:04
>> Yeah. Yep. Um, I've, um, I did a lot of,
01:54:08
um, a lot of TV stuff early, you know,
01:54:11
Sky and TV3 and, you know, did a
01:54:14
>> not that I was a bloody, um, was no
01:54:17
Keith Quinn, you know, far from it.
01:54:20
>> Well, there's only one Quinn, you know,
01:54:22
I was a comments guy and very happy
01:54:24
being a comments man. Um but even then
01:54:27
you know when you're doing three and
01:54:29
four you know follow the All Blacks on
01:54:32
tour and
01:54:33
>> you know it just becomes a little bit
01:54:36
you become a little bit blasze you know
01:54:38
it's like a [ __ ] broke me the game is
01:54:40
the same doesn't matter you just change
01:54:41
the name of the teams
01:54:43
>> and um I got a bit sick of that and then
01:54:45
being away
01:54:46
>> uh you know all the time I was I was um
01:54:50
away doing rugby when you know the
01:54:51
family was at home.
01:54:53
>> Yeah. And then I was at home when they
01:54:55
were all at school and stuff like that.
01:54:57
So that kind of wasn't working and uh
01:54:59
just got a bit tired of that. And then
01:55:01
bought into a um I used to I used to
01:55:04
work in a tire shop when I was at school
01:55:06
in the holidays. Friend of mine um a
01:55:08
friend of mine's father had a tire shop.
01:55:10
So we would go and work in it. And uh
01:55:13
then a guy rang me up and he said, "Oh,"
01:55:14
he goes, "I'm going to go and look at
01:55:16
this tire shop. You know, you
01:55:17
interested?" I was like, "It's been a
01:55:19
long time." guess I'll just come down
01:55:21
and went down and started working in
01:55:23
this tire shop with him and uh I
01:55:26
thought, "Oh yeah, this is all right."
01:55:28
Um so I ended up buying it off him and
01:55:31
they had had that for 14 years.
01:55:33
>> Wow.
01:55:34
>> And then uh got into another one.
01:55:36
>> Were you actually working in there? Were
01:55:37
you on the tools?
01:55:38
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:55:39
>> Oh [ __ ]
01:55:39
>> Yeah.
01:55:40
>> So uh it was, you know,
01:55:42
>> maybe it gave you some of that
01:55:44
physicality that you're talking about
01:55:45
before.
01:55:46
>> Yeah. And I've I've never minded the,
01:55:48
you know, the physical nature of it. And
01:55:50
you're still lifting heavy stuff. And so
01:55:52
there's another one in Pukakoi now. And
01:55:55
um
01:55:56
>> uh you know, so still still work there.
01:55:58
Still still on the tools now. I'll
01:56:00
probably have to leave here and then go
01:56:01
back and see what's going on.
01:56:04
>> I knew you had some businesses, but I I
01:56:05
just assume you bought into them and had
01:56:07
people running them for you. No, you're
01:56:09
in there.
01:56:09
>> A bit of that, but uh yeah. No, no. I I
01:56:12
don't think I could ever sort of like
01:56:14
people say to me, "What are you going to
01:56:15
do when you retire?" It's like, "Fuck,
01:56:17
it's true." And I used to get a lot of
01:56:19
people that would come into the shop and
01:56:21
um who had retired and had nothing to
01:56:25
do,
01:56:25
>> you know, and they were like, "You've
01:56:26
got to you got to have something to
01:56:28
retire to rather than just retire from."
01:56:31
So yeah, that's really so true. And
01:56:34
>> you know, they'd want to hang around for
01:56:36
hours talking just to, you know, just
01:56:39
pass the time and you're just going,
01:56:40
"Holy hell." But, you know, I can't I I
01:56:43
don't think um I don't think I could,
01:56:46
you know, I'm 64 now. I don't want to
01:56:48
retire in when I'm 65.
01:56:50
>> I'm Yeah, I'm a I'm a firm believer.
01:56:52
Like, you you need that purpose to get
01:56:53
out of bed in the morning, otherwise you
01:56:55
just fade away.
01:56:57
>> Um, so 64 years old, no one no one gets
01:57:00
to the privileged position of living to
01:57:01
64 without going through some real tough
01:57:03
periods or big adversities. What do what
01:57:05
do you think for you would be the
01:57:06
biggest adversity? Um
01:57:10
>> you sort of talked before about that um
01:57:12
transition period from um being a
01:57:14
professional rugby player to not would
01:57:16
that be up there?
01:57:17
>> Yeah, that's up there. But um
01:57:20
because you don't know what it is, you
01:57:22
know, what's what's causing what are my
01:57:24
issues now? You know, what what's
01:57:26
causing me to be feeling like this and
01:57:29
relationships?
01:57:31
um
01:57:33
you know um the breakdown of
01:57:35
relationships.
01:57:37
>> Um
01:57:38
I think
01:57:41
family's always been good. Kids always
01:57:44
been good, you know, and you always have
01:57:45
regrets with your kids. Um you know,
01:57:47
especially my first three, the older the
01:57:49
older three, and I was doing a lot of
01:57:51
touring around back then, you know, I
01:57:54
think I could have handled that better.
01:57:56
Um, but I I think um
01:58:03
a hard I think it is that that
01:58:05
transition really. You got you've got to
01:58:07
get that right, you know, if you want
01:58:08
the rest of your life to
01:58:10
>> if to to to be to turn out, you know, um
01:58:14
how it should or how you you want it to.
01:58:16
>> Um you really got to get that transition
01:58:18
right. You got to get the end of your
01:58:20
career and then the beginning of your
01:58:22
next life. Um, you got to get that um
01:58:25
get that sorted. I don't think I've had
01:58:27
really huge regrets, but um
01:58:32
>> yeah, that that piece that finding that
01:58:34
next piece is easier said than done, eh?
01:58:35
Because um you might have an idea, but
01:58:37
then you might start doing it and
01:58:38
realize that it's not bringing you joy
01:58:40
or you just don't really like it.
01:58:42
>> So, it's finding that thing that's going
01:58:43
to spin your wheels.
01:58:44
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
01:58:45
>> Are you are you happy these days? And
01:58:47
when do you think you've been your
01:58:48
happiest?
01:58:49
>> Um yeah, I know. I'm I'm pretty happy
01:58:51
these days. I think um
01:58:55
being my happiest
01:58:58
because I was my daughter's moved to um
01:59:01
with her family moved to Perth um very
01:59:04
recently and uh we were going through I
01:59:07
sent her some um pictures of uh you know
01:59:11
when she was really young and uh I'd
01:59:14
come back I'd come back from overseas
01:59:15
and I was with so there was in the
01:59:18
picture there was me and um and Yeah.
01:59:22
And we're talking she's 35 now. So man,
01:59:25
she must have been
01:59:27
and that's almost 25
01:59:29
>> 27 years ago.
01:59:32
>> And uh of these couple of Italian
01:59:34
friends and uh and another mate
01:59:38
>> and I showed her this sent her this
01:59:40
photo took a you know on the phone and
01:59:42
she comes back and she goes, "Oh, they
01:59:44
were such great days." And then I was
01:59:46
thinking, [ __ ] they were actually there
01:59:48
were like I um I even though I was
01:59:52
traveling and I wasn't back, you know,
01:59:54
they'd come over um my kids would come
01:59:57
over to uh to Italy or to France, you
01:59:59
know, and and uh we'd spend time over
02:00:02
there together and then we'd come back
02:00:03
and we lived together in the you know,
02:00:05
in in the house and every it was it was
02:00:07
carefree. Yeah. You know, and there were
02:00:09
no issues. Um
02:00:13
yeah, things were just Yeah.
02:00:15
>> simple.
02:00:16
>> Simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know,
02:00:18
you you had I don't know. And I think,
02:00:22
you know, it's a bit about the state of
02:00:24
the, you know, the the times we are in
02:00:27
at the moment. You know, it's it's hard
02:00:29
work out there for, you know, for
02:00:31
families and for,
02:00:33
>> you know, for kids and stuff like that.
02:00:34
But it seemed life just seemed so much
02:00:37
better, you know, back then. And I think
02:00:39
it was too, you know, it's I was talking
02:00:41
to my my family with my my daughter
02:00:44
moving. We were all at the airport and
02:00:46
stuff and you're talking to your your
02:00:48
family about it and turns out that
02:00:49
there's a couple of them that were also
02:00:51
thinking my brother-in-law was telling
02:00:53
me he was trying to get my older sister
02:00:55
to go and she said, you know, I'm not
02:00:57
I'm not going I don't want to go and
02:00:59
live in Australia and I don't either.
02:01:01
And another, you know, another of our
02:01:03
siblings was saying, ah, you know, we
02:01:06
still live in your mind. you still live
02:01:08
in the New Zealand that you know that we
02:01:11
were brought up in.
02:01:12
>> And it was
02:01:13
>> it was joyous you know
02:01:15
>> you there was there was we were always
02:01:17
positive you know we you could you could
02:01:20
make your life you could forge your path
02:01:23
um and there always seemed like there
02:01:25
was hope you know.
02:01:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And this this is coming from
02:01:28
you who, as we established at the
02:01:30
beginning, was raised in a house with um
02:01:32
10 people
02:01:33
>> and one income,
02:01:35
>> you know, so bare bones sort of stuff,
02:01:36
but still somehow better
02:01:39
>> better. Yeah. I say that to to just my
02:01:41
my wife and she was
02:01:44
>> um you know, they were raised pretty
02:01:46
well.
02:01:47
>> Um and I often find myself saying to
02:01:50
you, see, it's it's actually better
02:01:52
being poor.
02:01:54
you know, you you get you you get raised
02:01:57
a certain way, you know, when you when
02:01:59
you don't have everything
02:02:01
>> and uh everything that you want,
02:02:03
everything that you can hope for.
02:02:05
>> But um sometimes, you know, you just
02:02:09
your expectations aren't as high, you
02:02:10
know, and uh
02:02:12
>> it's good and bad, but you know, I don't
02:02:14
want to be destitute, but
02:02:16
>> you know, I got
02:02:17
>> Yeah. Were you you had a few years of um
02:02:19
earning like I suppose good professional
02:02:21
money. Were you were you good with your
02:02:22
money?
02:02:23
>> No. No guarded.
02:02:24
>> Yeah.
02:02:25
>> Yeah. There was no sort of financial
02:02:26
literacy at the time, was there?
02:02:28
>> Exactly. And you know, if you
02:02:30
>> I think if you don't come from money as
02:02:31
well, you don't really know how to how
02:02:33
to manage it, how to handle it. You know
02:02:35
what? You know, we had no idea about
02:02:37
investments and you know, in shares and
02:02:40
and things like that.
02:02:41
>> Um so
02:02:45
yeah, could have been a lot better.
02:02:46
Could have been sitting a lot better,
02:02:48
but um ah
02:02:49
>> hindsight,
02:02:50
>> hindsight could have been a lot worse.
02:02:52
>> Yeah, absolutely. What do you think your
02:02:53
best and worst habits are? Or if if
02:02:55
Jessica was here, what would she say
02:02:57
your best and worst habits are?
02:02:58
>> What did she say, D?
02:02:59
>> No, I I haven't spoken to her. Um
02:03:03
she's she she would probably say that um
02:03:07
not not that I could uh not that I could
02:03:10
necessarily do maybe maybe you know aim
02:03:13
a little higher
02:03:15
>> um in terms of uh in terms of of goals
02:03:19
and
02:03:21
um
02:03:23
she she hates it when I bloody sit on
02:03:25
the couch and watch TV for for too long
02:03:27
cuz that's just a waste of but uh it's
02:03:30
one of those things. No, she she'd just
02:03:32
tell me that um
02:03:35
she's always been encouraging, you know,
02:03:37
always. And uh and that I could I could
02:03:40
do really whatever I turn my hand to.
02:03:43
And actually, I got no doubt that I
02:03:44
could,
02:03:45
>> but um
02:03:47
>> some things you do, you want, you know,
02:03:49
you want to do and and other things you
02:03:50
don't. And and I'm kind of happy in my
02:03:52
>> Yeah.
02:03:54
I I know right at the very end, right
02:03:56
when I'm, you know, on my deathbed, I'll
02:03:58
go, I should have bloody
02:04:01
>> should have applied myself.
02:04:03
>> Yeah, exactly. But, you know, there's
02:04:05
always regrets.
02:04:07
>> Yeah. What um Yeah. Do you have regrets?
02:04:10
What are your regrets?
02:04:11
>> I
02:04:13
I regret not staying at school. I should
02:04:16
have furthered my education.
02:04:18
Um,
02:04:20
but you know when you're young and you
02:04:22
know you're teenage just getting around
02:04:24
that age and you think you know best and
02:04:26
you know
02:04:27
>> cuz I I could have done I could have
02:04:29
done so much more even though I'm happy
02:04:32
with what I've done. I could have done
02:04:34
you know more and even in different
02:04:36
areas. But um I think it's it's that I
02:04:40
should have stayed at school. um the
02:04:43
transition part, you know, I I probably
02:04:46
didn't listen to, you know, to to some
02:04:49
people to some advice I was given. Um
02:04:53
but apart from that really
02:04:58
>> Yeah. And relationships, past
02:05:00
relationships, you know, there's
02:05:02
>> some of them could have been handled
02:05:04
>> handled better. Oh, yeah. Well, you live
02:05:06
and learn, don't you? Are you are you um
02:05:08
are you shocking at communicating with
02:05:09
serious?
02:05:10
>> Yeah. Yeah,
02:05:11
>> I'm I'm learning though.
02:05:13
>> Oh, bro. Same here.
02:05:15
>> Constantly a work in progress.
02:05:16
>> Yeah, it is. It is. And that was that
02:05:18
was another thing on that on Treasure
02:05:19
Island, you know, we sat around the
02:05:21
campfire and just chatted and they were
02:05:25
the that that was the best part of the
02:05:27
whole thing where um where the cameras
02:05:30
are gone, you know, the day's work's
02:05:32
finished and you've had your rice and
02:05:34
beans and then you're just lying around.
02:05:37
There's no social media, there's no
02:05:39
phones, there's nothing, you know,
02:05:41
there's you're in the moment and you're
02:05:43
just lying around and then, you know,
02:05:45
you just start talking and it's amazing
02:05:48
what comes out. It's amazing what you
02:05:50
talk about and what you know, we'd be
02:05:53
sitting here and we'd be listening cuz
02:05:55
we've got all the time in the world and
02:05:57
then we're just listening to you talking
02:05:58
about you know your life and your
02:06:00
relationships and you know and then the
02:06:02
next person says something and then it's
02:06:04
your turn and you know so the like it's
02:06:06
just really opened everything up and and
02:06:10
um you know I found that uh
02:06:14
>> um yeah just being able to do that
02:06:17
>> uh Like I found it was like so good for
02:06:21
me, you know, as a person. And
02:06:23
>> you know, obviously you're younger than
02:06:25
me, but we're still of that era where
02:06:28
it's just hard to open up.
02:06:30
>> It's hard that vulnerability piece. It's
02:06:32
really difficult.
02:06:32
>> It is. It is. But I mean, there's it
02:06:35
there's no reason once you get through
02:06:38
that, there's no reason to, you know, to
02:06:42
be like we were,
02:06:43
>> you know.
02:06:44
>> Yeah. There's a better way.
02:06:45
>> Yeah. There's there's a there's a better
02:06:46
way. You just got to you just got to be
02:06:48
open to a little bit of change, a little
02:06:50
bit of it's uncomfortable. It can be
02:06:52
uncomfortable, but
02:06:54
>> it's so much better than sitting there
02:06:56
and going, "Oh, [ __ ] you know."
02:06:58
>> Yeah.
02:06:59
>> Old men, you know, I always laugh now.
02:07:02
You know, you look at, "Oh, it's woke.
02:07:05
Oh, it's good. Oh, it's" and you just
02:07:06
go, "Fuck." Just get on with the [ __ ]
02:07:10
If if um if your kids or grandkids were
02:07:12
here, uh what three words would you like
02:07:15
them to use to describe you
02:07:17
>> as describe me? Oh, yay. Um
02:07:21
>> three different words to describe you
02:07:24
and your character and your personality.
02:07:26
>> Yikes.
02:07:28
Um,
02:07:37
real, genuine
02:07:41
um, loving
02:07:45
>> and um,
02:07:53
what I say real or genuine. Genuine
02:07:55
loving and
02:07:57
>> two great words so far.
02:07:59
>> Genuine loving and
02:08:02
happy.
02:08:02
>> H
02:08:04
that's a great set of words at 64.
02:08:07
Genuine loving happy.
02:08:09
>> Yeah.
02:08:09
>> Are awesome words.
02:08:10
>> Yeah.
02:08:10
>> That's what other people say about you.
02:08:12
That's awesome.
02:08:13
>> Yeah. Yeah.
02:08:13
>> Especially the people that matter the
02:08:15
most.
02:08:15
>> Yeah. Yep. That is true. my um my
02:08:18
daughter that's just left uh Samantha,
02:08:20
she said that um my so my oldest son,
02:08:25
he's he's 40, but he's he's caring and
02:08:29
he's, you know, he's one of he's one of
02:08:31
those guys. He's he's got soft nature.
02:08:34
>> Then there's Sam who's strong as
02:08:37
anything, like really strong willed and
02:08:39
you know, and then Jordan is the next
02:08:41
one who's early 30s, 30, 31, something
02:08:44
like that. and um he's had his he's had
02:08:48
his issues but nothing serious but uh
02:08:51
he's over in Perth now as well. But my
02:08:54
daughter Sam said that you know she's
02:08:56
talking to Jordan and she talks to um
02:09:00
you know with her her kids and stuff
02:09:01
like that. She goes and the really good
02:09:03
thing is you know he's been bought up
02:09:06
especially Jordan and because he's got a
02:09:08
he's got a macho attitude and stuff like
02:09:10
that little you know but soft side. Um,
02:09:13
but she goes, "No, it's because, you
02:09:15
know, he he's got no issue saying I love
02:09:18
you." You know, and his her kids and
02:09:24
but they go, you know, he's grown up
02:09:26
like that, you know, he says, "I love
02:09:27
you and he's he can hear it." And he
02:09:29
goes, "But that's because you've always
02:09:30
said that
02:09:31
>> and to me." And I said, "Oh, yeah." She
02:09:34
goes, "Yeah, you've always been open
02:09:36
around us like that and you know, you
02:09:38
said I love you and you know, we can
02:09:40
talk like that around you and it's it's
02:09:42
just a natural thing for him now." And I
02:09:44
was thinking, "Oh, cuz and I know I do
02:09:46
say it to them and I've never it's never
02:09:49
been an issue." And I thought, "Oh,
02:09:51
that's actually it's nice to hear." So,
02:09:53
>> you're hearing it validated. Yeah.
02:09:55
>> I've done some good stuff.
02:09:56
>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
02:09:59
>> That's cool. Are you proud of yourself?
02:10:01
Um,
02:10:03
I'm proud of myself. Yeah. Yeah.
02:10:05
Generally, I'm proud of myself. you
02:10:06
know, I could have done things I could
02:10:08
have done a lot of things a lot better,
02:10:10
but generally in terms of what I've
02:10:13
achieved, where I've been, um, and I'm
02:10:18
I'm a little loathed to say where I've
02:10:20
come from because that, you know, that
02:10:21
puts um that puts it on my parents, you
02:10:25
know, cuz then they I go, "Oh, to have
02:10:28
come from here to here means that once
02:10:30
we were we were down there and we had
02:10:32
nothing and stuff, but, you know, I was
02:10:34
always loved.
02:10:36
Um, always had everything I needed. You
02:10:39
know, I was
02:10:40
>> roof over your head, food on the table.
02:10:41
>> Exactly. And never ever felt
02:10:44
>> Well, apart from a few times I got a
02:10:46
good hiding, but you know, from my
02:10:48
mother mainly. My mother was a
02:10:49
disciplinarian. My father wasn't.
02:10:51
>> You What was her What was her weapon of
02:10:53
choice?
02:10:54
>> Vacuum cleaner pot.
02:10:57
>> Yeah, I got the bell. Dad, dad would
02:10:59
always And sometimes like mom was never
02:11:01
the mom would be like, "Wait until your
02:11:03
father gets home." Then hours later we'd
02:11:05
get the belt for something and you
02:11:06
couldn't even remember what we' done.
02:11:08
>> Yeah. Exactly.
02:11:09
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Or the uh there's a like
02:11:13
a new there's a toughy. It's like it's a
02:11:15
broom but it's all these strands of
02:11:18
Yeah. So you get whacked with that.
02:11:20
>> But um
02:11:22
>> you've you've done well. You've done
02:11:23
well. You say you could have done more.
02:11:24
But um I mean the stuff we've covered
02:11:26
today like you've done a lot. You've got
02:11:28
a big family, a lot of grandkids. um
02:11:30
this incredible playing career which
02:11:32
puts you in the legend status. You've
02:11:34
done a lot.
02:11:35
>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I have actually. And um
02:11:39
I I should finish out, you know, I say
02:11:41
that I I want to make 80. I should
02:11:43
actually do something with the next 15
02:11:45
or 16 years. Something that I actually
02:11:48
That's the problem though. Think of
02:11:50
something. Jess, what do you want to do?
02:11:53
What are you going to do for the next
02:11:54
five or 10 years?
02:11:56
>> Yeah.
02:11:57
>> How's this been today? We've been going
02:11:58
for 2 hours 10 minutes. Um I I I went
02:12:01
through every single podcast that you've
02:12:02
been on previously and uh there's only a
02:12:05
couple and they're rugby based ones and
02:12:06
they're a lot shorter than this. Have
02:12:08
you found it okay?
02:12:09
>> I have. Talking about yourself for this
02:12:10
long.
02:12:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't mind
02:12:13
as long as you know you ask the right
02:12:15
questions, you know, you uh you I don't
02:12:19
mind opening up, you know, and I I'm in
02:12:21
that space now as well. I don't you
02:12:23
know, I got nothing to hide. M.
02:12:25
>> Um, so it's amazing. 2 hours 10 minutes
02:12:27
went just like that and that's when you
02:12:29
know it's been good.
02:12:30
>> Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time
02:12:32
today. It's great to see you back on TV
02:12:34
on Celebrity Treasure Island and um I'm
02:12:36
really excited to see what you do next
02:12:38
or or maybe you won't do anything next
02:12:40
and that's fine, too.
02:12:41
>> But um mate, I'm I'm just pleased to
02:12:43
connect on this level and see that
02:12:44
you're happy and content with life. So
02:12:46
cool.
02:12:46
>> Cheers, Dom.
02:12:47
>> Frank Buny, a great New Zealander.
02:12:49
>> Thank you, mate.
02:12:50
>> Cheers, mate. Beautiful.
02:12:52
Heat. Heat.
