00:00:00
Lori, I don't know if if there was embellishment to these stories, but he he he said that Jonah was having
00:00:05
>> You really think Lori's an embellisher? And another time he came in, he came in
00:00:09
and he uh I was having breakfast. Oh, no. After training, he had a meeting and he goes, "You don't you want to play?
00:00:16
You know, aren't you into this?" I was going, "Fuck." And he goes, "I'll be up
00:00:18
in my room." This is after training before we went down for lunch. He goes,
00:00:22
"I'll be up in my room." He goes, "If you want to if you want me to take you
00:00:25
out of that team," he goes, "You come up and fucking," you know. So, of course, I
00:00:30
never went up to town. I went down, had lunch and stuff. He walks in and he leans on the table, gets right in my
00:00:35
face, and he goes, "I was waiting. You know, you didn't come up and see me."
00:00:40
And I was going, "Fuck." Took all my willpower not to [ __ ] And I wanted to
00:00:44
smack him. >> Oh, god. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:50
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:53
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:57
hollow one in too. Oh, >> he did it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
00:01:03
>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here you'll find our top performers helping
00:01:07
Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here Finn. >> Maximize Generate. Putting performance
00:01:14
first. >> Frank Buntz, welcome to my podcast. >> Thank you. Thanks, Dom.
00:01:18
>> Hey, it's great to connect Frank B. uh 55 tests including the 1995 Rugby World
00:01:24
Cup final, 93 British and Irish Lion Series, the first two Tri Nations tournaments, and that historic series
00:01:31
win over South Africa in South Africa in 1996. Did I miss anything? um all my club years
00:01:40
I um I often say to people that um you know I was lucky when going through there because you know I cross paths
00:01:46
with some of the great you know some some people that can be um you know they're in the conversation for greatest
00:01:52
all black ever >> you know in their positions and this stuff so like Michael Jones like like
00:01:58
Jonah you know like um Jeff Wilson like Andrew Burton's like um Zenzan Brookke
00:02:04
like you know so many so many names and um and I think you know I think a lot of
00:02:10
them um are in that conversation. I think so. >> I I actually spoke to um the all black
00:02:16
coach that's so um so you played your first rugby world cup for Samoa and um
00:02:20
and we'll get into that. I've actually had the guy that shoulder tabbed you for
00:02:24
um Sir Brian Williams. I've had him on the podcast legion. Um, so you you were
00:02:29
getting quite old at that point and then you played so well in that rugby world cup that Lori Mains then got you for the
00:02:34
All Blacks. >> So you played one World Cup for some, one World Cup for the All Blacks. I
00:02:38
spoke to Lori yesterday at his home in Queenstown for like 20 minutes. >> He he um man, he gave me so much intel
00:02:45
which I'll no doubt bring up through this conversation, but you mentioned Jonah before and he just talked about
00:02:49
the pivotal role you had in Jonah's success, you and Eric Rush, because he said he really looked up to you guys. So
00:02:55
he would often use you guys as um as sort of the middleman >> to get messaging to Jonah.
00:03:01
>> Yeah, I think we were the buffers and you know to be fair it was it was rushy
00:03:05
really. Um cuz in the earlier years before um Jonah burst onto the scene. Um so Eric had come to us and just said and
00:03:14
you know just a group of friends and stuff and he goes oh I heard about this guy Jonah Jonah Lman young fell you know
00:03:20
um at school and that and uh he goes oh you know he's heard all this stuff about
00:03:24
him. He goes I'm thinking of taking him overseas cuz you know back then you could go and play sevens tournaments all
00:03:29
over the world and and um >> I I think that's where a lot of people you know found their way. And uh so
00:03:36
Rashi said I'm going to take him I think he took him to um did you go to Hong
00:03:40
Kong? Singapore I think maybe Singapore and then uh up to the islands went to um
00:03:44
you know Raro and stuff like that and and he came back and he was just you know just the way he spoke about Jonah
00:03:51
and you know they had a connection from from all of that and and Rushy looked after him. So, um, when he came into the
00:03:58
All Blacks, when he started making his way, you know, it it was mainly Rushy, but, um, you know, but, uh, there was a
00:04:06
group of us, myself and Walter and Glenn Osborne, you know, the Brown brothers, they, you know, they they were calling
00:04:12
everyone, but he was just comfortable, you know, Jonah was just comfortable with a group of people that, you know,
00:04:17
would were just kind of like him. Um, you know, had grown up like him, had experiences like he did and stuff like
00:04:24
that. and uh you know we looked after him so >> yeah this is going to be a fun chat. Do
00:04:29
you do you enjoy like reminiscing or are you sort of in the now? Yeah. >> Oh um a bit of both actually. But no I
00:04:35
do I do enjoy reminiscing. >> Lori I don't know if if there was embellishment to these stories but he he
00:04:41
he said that Jonah was having >> You really think Lori's an embellisher?
00:04:45
>> Actually I've got I've got I got a little bit of the conversation. I'll
00:04:47
I'll play it to you. Like he's he was he said really nice things about you. Uh,
00:04:53
hang on. Where's the sound here? Here we go. >> So, he's a professional.
00:05:00
>> One of the great respectful things about Frank was he could take a tonging up and
00:05:07
then two minutes later he was over it and he was back to doing his job and doing his job better because he had had
00:05:12
a stir up. >> Yeah. >> Oh, he's a real man. Believe me. Uh if you had 15 Frank Bunes in a team, you'd
00:05:20
never ever lose. For me, I'm I'm very reluctant to say who was best because
00:05:26
times in rugby, the game was played differently. But he's right up there with Bill Davis, Bruce Robertson, and
00:05:33
Joe Stanley. Uh who who who were all blacks when I was uh you know, old enough to to appreciate them.
00:05:42
>> Yeah. >> One of the great respect. >> Yeah. See, >> nice words, eh? They are nice words.
00:05:47
Yeah. >> Was Was he good at giving you a tongue lashing? >> Oh, he Jeez, he had heard it all. Um,
00:05:53
how's he What's it like with swearing? >> Anything goes. >> Uh, he um what did he I think one of the
00:06:02
things so we were playing in Scotland and um it was a it wasn't a test. It was
00:06:06
a midweek game and then I get Doc May who comes on the field and he goes um Lori said uh Lori said if you don't stop
00:06:15
[ __ ] around you know get off if you're not going to stop [ __ ] around. I'm saying what what he goes oh he's
00:06:21
he's pissed off. I was going [ __ ] [ __ ] you know and uh it went on and on and on and I think in those they
00:06:27
didn't have the walkie-talkies back then but um you know they Lori was ringing
00:06:31
Doc on his telephone and and he goes and it just went backwards and forwards for
00:06:35
a little bit. I never I never went off but um after the game finished and we won
00:06:40
>> and after the game finished I walk off and Doc goes better watch out you know
00:06:44
Lor's not happy. I was going [ __ ] you know Lor's not happy and so uh we just
00:06:49
carry on. I go in the shower and I'm having a shower just, you know, and then
00:06:53
I turn around and Lori's standing there was like and he looks at me and he goes,
00:06:58
"If I if I bought my gun today, I would have [ __ ] shot you, you cunt."
00:07:04
And I was going, "So, uh, that was one of them." And then he comes in. So, you know, it was like,
00:07:14
"Oh, yeah." and he walks out and then um we uh I think we're having a team
00:07:19
meeting was I don't know can't remember but we we're having a team party that
00:07:23
night a bit of a social gathering and then he walks in to the room and you know we're all having a few beers and he
00:07:30
walks in he turns the um the music down and he looks around and he goes right he
00:07:35
goes anyone who didn't play today and then he looks around and he stops at me
00:07:40
and he goes and [ __ ] you goes in the foyer. Tomorrow morning at 8:00 we're training. I was like, "Fuck it."
00:07:49
And then uh so we were just like, "Ah." Carried on the night went down. He
00:07:54
trained me. He put me at lock because we were short there. So he made me train at
00:07:58
lock for the whole time. And every time I made mistakes, which of course I was going to do because I was training, you
00:08:03
know, in a position I had no idea about. And uh every time I made a mistake, he just abused me, abused everyone, got um
00:08:12
you know, and then you know, yeah, penalized everybody for everything. And I think I don't know if you remember um
00:08:19
cuz Mike Brewer, he wasn't on the on the tour officially. He was there as a Canterbury uh rep and um he was we were
00:08:28
short, so he's like, "Oh, you know, blah blah blah." Yeah. Then he told Mike
00:08:31
Brewer to to get into to do the training and stuff and he ended up anyway Mike Brewer um played in a test match ahead
00:08:38
of Liam Barry but he got pulled from the sideline to do it but that was that tour
00:08:42
but oh his he just abused you know he man I've just seen him >> but you know he'd do it
00:08:49
>> but he has said that to me too actually. He said, "You know, the the reason that
00:08:52
I could I would say that to you is because I knew, you know, I'd get a positive response. You know, you could
00:08:57
take it." And he goes, "And you could shake it off." And I'm not saying it
00:09:00
didn't, you know, at the time it didn't affect me because, you know, you're just
00:09:03
thinking, "Fuck, you you have a good training or something. You do something
00:09:06
and then you get abused and you're just going [ __ ] what the And another time
00:09:10
he came in. He came in and he uh I was having breakfast. Oh, no. after training he had a meeting and he goes
00:09:18
um he looks at me and he goes you don't don't you want to play you know aren't
00:09:22
you into this I was going [ __ ] he goes I'll be up in my room this is after
00:09:26
training before we went down for lunch and he goes I'll be up in my room he goes if you want to if you want me to
00:09:31
take you out of that team he goes you come up and [ __ ] you know of course I never went up to tell I went
00:09:38
down had lunch and stuff he walks in and he leans on the table gets right in my face and he goes I was waiting and you
00:09:44
know you didn't come up and see me and I was going [ __ ] it took all my willpower
00:09:49
not the [ __ ] and I wanted to smack him but he was but you know he would I'm sure he had a plan yeah but
00:09:57
>> it wasn't always clear what it was >> it was yeah it wasn't always clear but
00:10:01
um no he was you know he was the best coach I ever had and it turned out that maybe he knew before I did that I didn't
00:10:08
mind that stuff you know and I know I've seen people >> um he's abused people he's sworn at them
00:10:14
he's done who haven't been able to take it and turn it around. So, um it works
00:10:19
both ways. You got to I guess you got to figure out the person. >> Yeah. I I asked him about your nickname
00:10:24
uh the prince of darkness and he goes he goes I could I could get I speculate how
00:10:27
he got that nickname and then he chuckled but he said I don't know for certain. Are you still the prince of
00:10:32
darkness? How did you get the nickname Prince of Darkness? you'd have to ask.
00:10:35
Um, well, it was back in those days, you know, when when you had a few beers and
00:10:39
you used to go out and, you know, we we would go out, you'd have a few beers on
00:10:45
Thursday, you know, before uh after training after you've you've done the
00:10:49
week, you know, you cuz back in those days, and all the rules were changing, I think, cuz you're only allowed to
00:10:55
assemble sort of three or four days out from the actual game. So we'd assemble
00:10:59
on a Tuesday train. Oh, that's in New Zealand, you know, train Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and we'd have a
00:11:07
little captain's run on Friday. But, you know, you'd have a few beers um within
00:11:11
reason, of course, uh leading up to a game, but then afterwards, and you know, Lori was all for it. It
00:11:17
was, you know, it was what was done in those days, you know, so you'd just go
00:11:21
out and um and enjoy yourself, you know, and he didn't care. He said, "You know,
00:11:25
if long as you front up, because we used to train actually the day after games, especially when we're on tour, but you'd
00:11:31
go out, enjoy yourself, have a few beers, but you better make sure that you turn up to whatever you're supposed to
00:11:36
turn up. You got to be responsible as well, but you turn up to team meetings, you turn up to trainings, you perform at
00:11:42
training, you do what you have to do." He didn't care if you went out and had a
00:11:45
few beers. So, of course, >> we went out and had a few beers. And there was a group of people in, you
00:11:51
know, Prince of Darkness. I think that's an Eric Rush, you know, I'd go back to
00:11:56
uh go back to Russia and see where that came from. But, you know, we spent a lot
00:11:59
of time out enjoying ourselves. >> Oh, work hard play out. I suppose it was
00:12:03
the culture at the time, late ' >> 90s. >> Um, so Celebrity Treasure Island, you're
00:12:07
back on that now. Uh, this isn't your first time either. You've been you were
00:12:10
one of the original cast members like 25 years ago. What's the difference between
00:12:15
2001 Celebrity Treasure Island and 2026? Apart from the fact that I'm 25 years
00:12:21
old, um it I well I think it's a lot it's taken a lot more seriously now in
00:12:27
terms of um in terms of the production, you know, and and you know what you're
00:12:31
what's expected of you and back then, you know, and I always say it's it's all
00:12:38
about the people. But um 25 years ago, you have to stop and think um that that's kind of I can't remember any of
00:12:44
the challenges. I can't I can barely remember the team. I can you know but we
00:12:48
were over in Fiji and we were having a great time and you know it was it was all good. Um but um the thing I do
00:12:55
remember about it is and even if it's vaguely was that I had a bloody good time and met some good people which when
00:13:03
you do these sorts of things you always meet good people and um so you know when
00:13:08
I got asked again I was thinking you know it it was quite timely but um I thought
00:13:14
yeah you know I like a you know it's not I like a little bit of a challenge you
00:13:19
know nothing too hard these days but you know I won't shy away from things. But
00:13:23
um no, no, it's it's always it's always just the people and uh you know, I had a
00:13:29
good time, so I figured I'll go back. They didn't pay us 25 years ago. They
00:13:33
pay you these days. So, you know, that was >> You get like a day rate, don't you?
00:13:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You pay for the days that you're there. >> Yeah. You get a sign on and then you get
00:13:40
a a day rate >> and then a bonus if you win. >> But you're you're 64 now. Surely you
00:13:46
like sleeping in a comfortable bed. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm sleeping in a
00:13:49
comfortable bed. But uh um I still direct drive around in a Niss Antid though. >> Do you actually?
00:13:55
>> Well I well I have done for for years and years but it's just one of those
00:13:59
little cars that um that went through our family and sort of ended up with me and uh
00:14:05
>> and it's a really little comfortable little thing and you know it cost you
00:14:09
next to nothing to drive and and I only you know I live in Pokoi so I zip around
00:14:14
>> wherever you need to go you go in five or 10 minutes. Yeah. >> How do you feel being 64?
00:14:20
>> Um >> cuz there's that line in the Beatles song, will you still need me? Will you
00:14:23
still feed me when I'm 64? It's like an iconic line. >> But you you're looking you're looking
00:14:27
really good. You feel okay? >> I I do. I feel okay. I've got, you know,
00:14:31
I've got issues with knees and joints and and and things like that, but uh um
00:14:37
nothing nothing major. And I I think I'm lucky. You know, I I haven't really had
00:14:41
I've had a lot of injuries, but I haven't had bad injury. And um and it hasn't um hasn't stopped me from doing
00:14:48
anything. But yeah, that was uh it was a little odd on the show because um you know people defer you know straight away
00:14:56
oh you know are you okay? You okay with this? Can you you need to go up there? You know they and you're thinking [ __ ]
00:15:03
people are calling you ma. Yeah, exactly. Mur ko and all these Oh, you know, you just go cuz actually I was at
00:15:12
the airport one time and I was I don't know what I was doing there. I was dropping someone off or picking someone
00:15:16
up. But u I I drove out the wrong way. I didn't even see the arrows and stuff
00:15:21
like that. There's barely any cars there. And I drove out the wrong way. And this other car came in and stopped
00:15:27
and they had to reverse out. And as I drove out, the guy yelled out, "You're
00:15:31
going the [ __ ] wrong way, Grandpa. What the [ __ ] >> Cuz aging's funny, isn't it? Because um
00:15:40
I'm I'm a I'm I'm in my 50s now. I'm a bit younger than you, but not by much.
00:15:43
And um I don't actually feel any different. So, but every now and then you get a glimpse of yourself in the
00:15:48
mirror. You're like, "Oh, shit." >> That's Oh, yeah. That's I do that
00:15:51
walking along the street and your shop window and I'm hunched over and I'm I'm
00:15:56
thinking, "Oh, there was uh we did another um reality thing, the um >> Oh, matchfit."
00:16:02
>> Matchfit. And uh you know that bears you right down to the bones but they they
00:16:07
take this um I can't even remember what it's called but you do all these tests all this physical
00:16:14
stuff but then they've got this this image of you that gets sent and you don't see it at the time you know we
00:16:21
don't see it until afterwards and when they send all the paperwork and everything through to you and um you
00:16:26
know standing on this thing and you're stripped down to your underpants and that and just stand there and it's all
00:16:30
right and then they'll say okay and you got this is you know, your issue and you
00:16:34
got this problem, your cholesterol is this and and you're sitting there going,
00:16:36
"Fuck," you know, and then when the when the paperwork comes through, they they
00:16:41
sent and there's an image of you standing there. [ __ ] you should have said it. It's Oh, man. I I [ __ ] I hate
00:16:50
looking at you look at it and you know, you got a gut and you're bent over and
00:16:54
you Oh, it's It was terrible. >> It's so much vulnerability, isn't it?
00:16:59
It's like literally exposing yourself on TV. >> Yep. Yeah. >> Um, yeah, but you lost your dad at 55 to
00:17:05
a heart attack. Um, so you're 9 years ahead of where he is. You feeling good?
00:17:09
You feeling optimistic about the future? >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I um I did say to I was
00:17:14
talking to Dr. Mayhew about it and uh um you know I go to I barely go to the doctors even. So I we've had a we've had
00:17:23
a family doctor. remember the days when doctors used to come to your house and you know so we had this doctor and he
00:17:29
was at the health center out in uh in Mangadu where we grew up >> and uh so one guy and then when he
00:17:37
retired this other guy this English guy he came over and took his place and we've been like 50 odd years you know
00:17:44
with this same doctor >> and uh I go in and see him now since Doc Mayhew's passed away with rugby I was
00:17:51
always going back to Doc Mayhew but now I've gone back to um you know to Dr. all
00:17:56
and uh I said I you know barely come in you know every he goes yeah I think you're in every 10 years you know for a
00:18:02
blood test or something for a TV show that you might be doing where you need a physical I said yeah and he goes oh
00:18:07
you're lucky and I said oh yeah he go I said oh yeah I've been pretty lucky I
00:18:10
haven't he goes yeah goes but what you will get is going to kill you >> so you go but you know my father his his
00:18:18
stuff was my father's stuff was um bad lifestyle choices you know not that I haven't made many of them, but um
00:18:27
you know he was a he was a young guy in the Navy, you know, when they wake him up in the morning and they drink rum,
00:18:34
you know, the old Navy rum thing and uh you get a tot of rum and stuff and then he that's all he did and then came out
00:18:40
of the Navy and you know he worked in in pubs, managed a couple of pubs around in
00:18:45
Oakuckland and that was his kind of lifestyle, >> you know, and um >> it just caught up with him.
00:18:50
>> Yeah. As it does. >> Yeah. >> And you're you're um Yeah. Yeah. You're
00:18:54
in an interesting interesting chapter of life, eh? So, your dad is six, seven grandkids.
00:18:57
>> Yep. >> Yeah. What's the age range of the kids? >> Um, of the kids, my oldest is 40 now,
00:19:04
and then my youngest is six. I had a late in life. Uh, >> well, you could say that half of them
00:19:10
were late in life. But my oldest um, yeah, my oldest is 40. He's over in Australia. He's over in
00:19:18
Perth. Um, he's got, um, he's got three of the kids. uh he's a teacher over
00:19:24
there and he's married to a uh a sour girl. She's a she was a cop but now
00:19:29
she's studying law over there so they're all happy. Then um next one is 35 who my daughter she's
00:19:38
four uh sorry she's got four kids >> I mean they've just moved to Australia
00:19:42
as well on Saturday and then got a younger one I can't remember how old he is he's about 30 31 or something like
00:19:49
that and then still got a couple just finished one just finished school she's
00:19:52
about 18 now then a 16y old and then a six >> yeah what's your how's your parenting
00:19:59
style changed like with the older kids and the the and the young one Yeah. There's there's there's there's a lot to
00:20:04
be said about older dads. E like Yeah. I think a bit of perspective on what's
00:20:07
important and what matters and >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. And uh and I believe that I think I'd like to think my uh my
00:20:16
parenting style has changed, you know, for the better. Um I'm I'm a lot more
00:20:20
conscious of uh you know, what they're eating. And when I was a bit younger,
00:20:23
when the kids were young, you know, we were just um I remember with my son my middle son, he was uh you know, we
00:20:32
were going down and you know, buying I don't know, McDonald's or something like
00:20:35
that and uh we're talking about dinner one evening. He said, "Can can we just
00:20:40
have some vegetables maybe for what?" But, you know, a lot of the time I was um, you know, I'd spend a lot of
00:20:48
time by myself with the kids and stuff and then, you know, and I didn't know
00:20:52
how to cook or anything. You know, I just generally to be down the road and, you know, you buy Chinese food, you buy
00:20:57
McDonald's, you buy fish and chips, you buy whatever, just take the easy road.
00:21:01
But I was um I've always, you know, had I've got really really good relationships, great relationships with
00:21:07
my children, which I'm which I'm pretty proud of. Um, parenting styles now. I'm
00:21:13
I'm a lot more aware of, you know, and then we didn't have social media really
00:21:17
back then, but a lot more aware now. And my uh my wife is, she's an American. And
00:21:23
um she's a lot more aware, you know, she's the one who's driving it. I'm kind
00:21:28
of a little bit more I wouldn't even say easygoing, just it's it's probably not a good thing, you
00:21:34
know, where I just Dad, can I watch on your phone for Yeah. Yeah. He'll be right, you know.
00:21:40
>> Oh, soft touch. >> Yeah. And then the wife comes, she goes on. I said, "Oh, yeah. I I you know, so
00:21:46
I Yeah, I could be better." >> Yeah. So your wife Jessica um there there's parallels with your relationship
00:21:51
and my relationship. There's um similar age gap. You 19 19 20 years? >> 19 years.
00:21:56
>> Yeah. I'm the same like 20 20 21 years. Um Yeah. Yeah. How how does that work
00:22:02
out? Cuz that's one of my one of my concerns with um with Ash. It's like
00:22:06
I'll be 80 and she'll only be 60 or whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Jess is a I think
00:22:13
she's kind of an old heart, you know, an old head um already. So um yeah, we haven't really had a lot of,
00:22:23
you know, we haven't had issues to be honest, but um you know, around that, but um I think
00:22:31
I >> I feel like you've got quite young energy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:34
>> Like boyish energy. >> Yeah. Yeah. You could be right there. So I I I come down, you know, I come down
00:22:41
by 15 years and she has to come up a little bit and then we meet in the middle >> as long as someone's being the adult in
00:22:46
any given time. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's I hate to say it, but it's always her.
00:22:50
>> Yeah. you know, but a lot of men do that. You know, you just take you take
00:22:54
advice and you know, you take direction from uh from your wife and you like she's she's in education, you know, her
00:23:01
um >> her family her whole family are are in education and they're all they're all
00:23:05
academic, you know, so I think everyone in their family's got a PhD. >> Wow. and apart from one sister but um
00:23:13
according to her father that particular sister who doesn't have the PhD is the
00:23:17
only one who she makes a pile of money in real estate I think so over in the states so um
00:23:23
>> it works out >> I I I saw a quote from her online um she says when I've asked him where do you
00:23:30
see yourself in 5 to 10 years what do you enjoy doing he tends not to have a vision I'd love to see him really get
00:23:36
excited about something and put his energy into it where do yeah Do you where do you see yourself in 5 or 10
00:23:42
years? >> Yeah. See, I can't even answer that to you. I can't, you know,
00:23:47
>> I've never been one that really and it's a I must admit it's a bit of a
00:23:52
regret. I've never been one that's looked ahead too much. I kind of live in
00:23:56
the in the now. >> Quite cruisy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, you know,
00:24:00
it's good and bad. It sounds good, but, you know, when you're 64 and you look
00:24:03
back and you go, "Yeah, I could have done that. I should have, you know, maybe tried a little harder, you know,
00:24:08
for this. But Jess is um yeah, she she's the she's the type of person she sets
00:24:13
goals and and she's really driven and and gets there. And um yeah, she's been
00:24:20
she's been pushing me a little bit, but man, I I just don't have, you know, I I
00:24:26
like a lot of things. You know, I enjoy I enjoy so many Oh, I enjoy so many things, but um but there's nothing
00:24:34
there's no one thing that I'd like to say, man, I would really love to do that
00:24:38
or to >> um so I can't even answer. >> Can't you tell her, chill out? I've done
00:24:45
enough. I've done a lot. >> I do say that a little bit. >> Bring up your Wikipedia page. Say, read
00:24:49
this. >> Yeah, I do say that a little bit. And then I say, and don't forget, I've been
00:24:53
alive 20 years longer than you have. You know, I've traveled um there's only one
00:24:59
place that I'd like to go now, I think, and that's Russia. >> H >> um if I had an opportunity to go to
00:25:05
Russia, I'd jump at it. Um everywhere else, you know, I I feel that I've
00:25:10
traveled and I've seen, you know, a lot of the world. I've done a lot through
00:25:14
rugby and still doing a lot through rugby, but I have done otherwise. Um um but in terms of life itself, you
00:25:22
know, I'm I'm kind of happy with with the, you know, got my kids and the
00:25:26
grandkids and they're all doing well and and um I'm I'm just happy in that space.
00:25:31
I think >> you're content. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I am. So, um you know,
00:25:37
I don't know. I say to my my kids, you know, I'll I'll be um I'll be disappointed if I
00:25:43
don't make 80. Um I think that'll be my goal. I should make 70. I've only got six more years,
00:25:50
you know, to get this six. You know what? Six years goes just like that. So, um >> yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't
00:25:56
necessarily have a goal. I don't not where I want, you know. I just want to be I just want to be okay. I just want
00:26:01
to be happy, content, stay with that. >> Kids doing well, family's doing well.
00:26:06
So, you know, I'm all right. >> I think that's really good. And I've got
00:26:09
no doubt you'll make it to 80. Uh when I spoke to Lori yesterday, uh he's he's 80
00:26:13
now. Gets up in the morning, does some like um some stretching and exercises, plays golf,
00:26:19
>> still shoots round about his age. Um he's he's very fit and vibrant. As long
00:26:23
as you keep yourself a little bit active, you can still have a really good life as you get older.
00:26:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think these um you know, the the reality shows that we go
00:26:30
on >> that Matchfit was really good. A lot of them are really good for you, you know.
00:26:34
Um, and and I do, I must admit, I do prefer the the physical nature of of different shows. Um, you know, Treasure
00:26:43
Island, you get on there and they go, "Oh, we got a quizzes coming up today."
00:26:45
And you just go, "Oh, fuck." You know, but if it's a, you know, running into
00:26:49
the surf and doing that's I'm I'm happier with that. So, but you know,
00:26:53
match fit, you find out a whole lot about yourself and about your um, you know, your issues and um, that goes a
00:27:01
long way and it's it's well you obviously go into a lot more detail, you
00:27:06
know, with matcha, but it's nothing that you haven't heard before. You know,
00:27:09
don't do this, don't eat too much of that, don't, you know, do that. And uh
00:27:13
when you're young, you can sort of disregard all of that, which I did. But now I'm a lot more aware, you know, and
00:27:19
my diet's better. I still eat I love chocolate, and you know, I still eat a lot of sweets and stuff like that, but I
00:27:25
also eat um a more balanced um meal, a better diet. And you know, Jess is um you know, is is responsible to that. Not
00:27:36
saying that other my other partners, you know, in the past haven't tried, but you
00:27:40
know, you don't take notice until you're 64. >> Do you um do you do you sneak chocolate?
00:27:45
So like after this you you drive back home to Puka, which is about a 45minute drive. Um will you have some chocolate
00:27:51
and dispose of the rapper so she doesn't? >> Probably. Maybe not. It depends what
00:27:56
time it is. You know, I don't need chocolate in the morning. Go on. I'm not
00:27:58
that bad. But uh yeah. Yeah, I do that. I go up, you know, go up the road and get some
00:28:04
milk or do and it's like, you know, there's a peanut slab or something. Oh, no. All
00:28:11
right. And then eat that and Yeah. And then get the wrapper out of the car, put in your pocket, and then walk in, put
00:28:16
the milk there, and then >> Yeah. >> I There's so many dudes doing that.
00:28:20
>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's before dinner, too. So, you know, Oh, yeah.
00:28:23
>> Or going to Bunnings and just like having a couple of sausages really, really quickly before anyone finds out.
00:28:28
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Hey, let's um go back and we'll talk about your early years and then we'll
00:28:32
build up to this um fantastic rugby career you had. So um one of eight kids, big family.
00:28:37
>> Yep. >> Your mom Seifa. >> Yep. >> Is she still alive?
00:28:40
>> No. No. She passed about oh 10 probably about 10 years ago or so. >> Yeah.
00:28:46
>> Yeah. She um and it feel like it came on you know quite quickly. I don't really I
00:28:51
don't know what you know what the cause was but um she started getting a little
00:28:56
bit sick and said had some some women some female issues um but um yeah I felt like you know it she made a trip to
00:29:05
Australia and then came back and she was suffering a little bit went into hospital and and never came out but um
00:29:12
yeah for me seems like it it came on quickly. >> Yeah. How old was she? She was um
00:29:21
70 kind of early to mid70s. I don't don't know exactly. >> Right. >> And she um she had eight kids. You're
00:29:28
one of eight. >> Yep. >> Where are you in the birth order? >> Third.
00:29:31
>> Third. >> Yeah. She had uh my first two sisters um they were born in the same year. So one
00:29:39
was January and then one the other one in December of the same year. So my father was in the Navy. So the joke is,
00:29:46
you know, he'd go off and do his stuff and then come home and, you know, reconnect.
00:29:52
>> What was um you know, what were some of the values from your upbringing that
00:29:55
like still guide you today or still sit with you? >> Um a lot of it a lot of it family,
00:30:01
>> you know, um accepting accepting people. My mother was always the one that drove every, you
00:30:09
know, didn't matter who you were. and you know partners come and go and you know they sometimes they come with kids
00:30:14
sometimes they don't you know but everybody was was a member of the family and they were all treated the same and
00:30:20
you know I think it's I think from her um you know you you accept and you you
00:30:27
treat people >> well you know and uh and I think um >> yeah yeah yeah that from her my father
00:30:36
was a he was a really hard you know when he came out of the Navy and stuff and you know, eight kids, one one income.
00:30:44
Well, it was one person bringing the money in. My mother was busy raising the children, but um you know, my father was
00:30:50
working two full-time jobs. Um >> and uh you know, I think that took his toll.
00:30:56
>> Um >> it's a lot of pressure. >> It's a lot of pressure. A lot of mouths
00:30:59
to feed. >> Yeah. And you don't realize until you, you know, you later on, but I never, you
00:31:03
know, we didn't have, you know, >> well, no, I suppose we were poor, but
00:31:08
you didn't feel like, you know, we weren't destitute or anything like that.
00:31:11
You know, we we never wanted, >> you know, we couldn't afford, you know,
00:31:15
the luxuries, but we didn't want for anything. I was never hungry. I can never remember being hungry or or, you
00:31:20
know, not having something that I really needed or things like that. But and it's
00:31:24
not until it's not until later on years and years later when you when you're in
00:31:28
that same position, you know, and you think, geez, my father was, you know, working all night, he'd come home, you
00:31:34
know, he'd have breakfast or he'd have something and he might have an hour or
00:31:37
two before he had to go to another job and then do that and then come home and then he'd have a couple of hours, few
00:31:42
hours sleep, and then he'd go back to his, you know, and you go, how how can
00:31:45
you do that? And keep doing it for years and years and years. So um you know that
00:31:51
uh all all that stuff you know when you when you get a little bit older and you and you start thinking about it it means
00:31:57
it means a whole lot more you know the things the sacrifice that that parents you know make for their children and you
00:32:04
don't you don't know about it until you are in that position. Well, you only
00:32:08
know what you know. I like I I grew up in Palmer North in the 80s and I I I thought we were sort of poor and I look
00:32:14
back now and we were just very middle class, you know, three bedrooms, >> one bathroom and was only until you go
00:32:20
go to a friend's place that's got like um like nicer biscuits or blue toilet in
00:32:25
the water. I was like, "Oh [ __ ] that's that's rich." So, how many how many
00:32:29
bathrooms in your house growing up? Just the one. >> Just the one. Yeah. >> So, you would have never had your own
00:32:33
bedroom? >> Nope. Nope. Always shared. And every now and then, you know, we'd swap, you know,
00:32:38
siblings and uh we didn't we didn't have a shower, you know. We had a just a
00:32:43
bath. So, um I don't can't remember the first time I lived in a place with a
00:32:48
shower. Um but we had a we had a washroom there with a little, you know, with the old and you know, early on back
00:32:55
in the day was one of those ones with the old ringers, you know, that you'd you'd uh thing the clothes through.
00:33:01
There was no there was no dryers or anything. was always hanging the clothes out on the on the clothes line. Um,
00:33:08
and then separate toilet and then separate bathroom just with a with a bath and you know, we just made it work.
00:33:14
>> Was it shared bath water? >> Uh, yeah. Yeah, it was. >> Yeah. How many? I remember cuz I was one
00:33:20
of four. So, from memory, we did an order. So, it was oldest to youngest. So, I was
00:33:24
>> I think it was always oldest to youngest. >> Second with the but if you're not first
00:33:27
then it's soapy ass. It looks dirty. Yeah, but I think if we had cousins staying over, then after like four,
00:33:33
they'd drain the plug and refill it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember how
00:33:36
many how many would go through it. But uh >> I'm pretty sure it wasn't eight.
00:33:40
>> Mhm. What were your first memories of rugby? >> Um so we lived where we lived um
00:33:49
was ah was walking distance then, but you had to walk everywhere back then. Um up at the Manal Rugby Club and um I went
00:33:58
up there. I would have been I don't know seven or eight years old you know when I
00:34:02
first started um organized sport everything else was just playing out in the you know because you were just free
00:34:10
to do anything in those days and uh I can't recall that we had oh I don't know
00:34:15
I think we had bit of sport at school primary school intermediate school you know and then college was after that but
00:34:21
um um yeah my my first thoughts were just going up there and just running around you know barefoot with with a
00:34:28
whole lot of other people. Not certainly not organized. >> Um or they they might have thought it
00:34:33
was but um you know you just you just get up there and do do whatever you want. But um I went to I went up there
00:34:40
and I watched so the club Manuel it was situated in Onihunga. Um but then but then they got this just in time for me.
00:34:49
They got this um this field and new club room set up in Mang. And uh the opening
00:34:54
game they got all these guys to come down and um and play in the match and Brian Williams BG he was playing in it
00:35:02
and I remember >> I remember going up to him and getting his after the game getting his signature
00:35:08
>> and uh he stood on my on my foot with you know cuz they had steel springs in
00:35:13
those days too and I always always remember that because he stood on my foot but um you know I gave him the
00:35:20
thing and all that and there was a whole lot of people around and boom and stood
00:35:23
on the foot was like and uh he just signed the thing and I've told him that many a time.
00:35:28
>> He was a big star, right? >> Oh, he was massive. Massive legs. >> Yeah, we we were we were uh we were a
00:35:34
rugby family. We're a sports family and that was a that was always a great memory cuz we'd we'd in our lounge in
00:35:40
our sitting room, you know, we had a TV and uh there'd be 10 of us, you know,
00:35:45
lying around watching the All Blacks play, you know, when they're over in the
00:35:49
UK or whatever. you know, get up in the morning, everybody would get up and you'd have your cups of tea and your
00:35:53
biscuits or whatever and um and just sit there and watch. And, you know, Brian Williams was a was always a favorite in
00:36:00
our household. So, um you know, it was a it was a pleasure and honor to, you know, to to actually become a you know,
00:36:07
a friend of his and then be kind of taken under his wing a little bit. So, um >> yeah. Yeah, that was, you know,
00:36:15
>> with with you, what was um what was the percentage of talent versus just hard
00:36:20
work? Were you naturally talented? >> Uh to a point. And I didn't like hard work until until I
00:36:31
had to, you know, I had to do it. Funnily enough, I don't mind hard work. I don't mind hard work. Um well
00:36:37
especially so now but uh I think it's probably Lori that really you know showed me what I could do and uh I you
00:36:47
know my school reports could do better. >> I never applied himself. >> He never applied himself. Yeah. You know
00:36:53
always you know too social always off talking to someone always you know doing this could do a lot better you know and
00:36:59
that sort of I was that sort of kid all the way through and I passed. I was I was always in the top classes and things
00:37:05
like that and and um but you know I was too busy having a you know having fun and um
00:37:13
um yeah I you know I never really I I guess when I was younger I had the talent to get me into certain positions
00:37:22
but then I' I never you know I'd get to the trials of a of a an age grade rep
00:37:28
team or something like that but I'd never get picked. I'd get go through all
00:37:31
of the things but never quite make that last one. And you know that that went on
00:37:35
for quite a few years but I was I was doing all right at the club and you know I was I was I was all right. I was
00:37:40
playing and never really had any any thoughts of of you know I would have loved to have been an all black but how
00:37:48
hard was it was I you know was I ready to work and it turned out that not that hard.
00:37:54
>> Yeah. Was was that like your dream? You know, like like a lot of kids that even
00:37:58
today still have the dream of like um you know, representing New Zealand and playing for the Orbs. Was that a dream
00:38:03
for you or >> It wasn't until I until I started, you know, I did make a couple of, you know,
00:38:08
of those teams. I never really thought it possible early on and didn't think
00:38:12
too much about it, but um uh when I started making a a couple of age grade teams and and things like that
00:38:20
and then then I thought, oh, and you know, then I made a Oakland C team, an Oakland Beat, you know, and I was kind
00:38:25
of hovering around that and I was thinking, oh yeah, this could, you know, you never know. Um
00:38:31
>> and I but the thing with me, I just did what I had to do to get through, you
00:38:35
know, I did enough. Um but it wasn't quite enough to you know take the next step and um and I you know I was lucky I
00:38:43
think um you know the sour that opportunity Peter Fats you know he was always he was always at me so it's my on
00:38:50
my mother's side she's new um her father was half sour and uh back in those days
00:38:57
you know that was enough but >> you don't need to justify it played for
00:39:01
Sam for a couple of games. >> Exactly. Exactly. Um so uh yeah, Fats was always and some weren't in the first
00:39:09
World Cup, you know, but so um there was a bit of an affront to them, but they um
00:39:14
just kept pushing and pushing Peter Fats. So I thought, ah cuz he said to me, he goes, "You're going to have to
00:39:20
face it." He goes, "You're never going to be a [ __ ] All black." I said, and
00:39:24
he goes, "Come on, man." He goes, "This is the opportunity, you know, do." And I
00:39:27
said, "Yeah, I think you might be right." Cuz yeah, you know, as you say,
00:39:29
I was I was what 20 >> mid 20s at that time. >> Yeah. 27ish and it played for Aland, you know, I was
00:39:37
kind of I was thinking, oh well, you know, did all right, but um yeah, when that that door opened and I thought, oh
00:39:44
yeah, I will do that. Then jumped in and that was all good and then it went on from there and uh and you know,
00:39:49
obviously Lori was watching. So, uh but I was never really really pushed, you know. Um Lori came on and I'd never met
00:39:59
anyone. Well, I know to be honest, we had a guy, Elby Prior, who was our club coach, and he was kind of like Lori,
00:40:04
too. You know, where you were actually physically scared. Um, so, um, but Lori, he pushed, um, I I just found that I
00:40:16
liked that style, you know, I didn't care that I got yelled at. Um, you know,
00:40:20
we got pushed and pushed and pushed and then I realized, hey, I can do this. you
00:40:24
know, the harder he pushed cuz there were guys, you know, we had guys that were spewing on the sidelines after his
00:40:30
trainings or, you know, injured and well, you know, he didn't care. It was just, you know, well, [ __ ] off then. If
00:40:37
you can't finish training, [ __ ] grab your gear and [ __ ] off. You're no use to
00:40:40
us. So, you know, people would sort of get up and meekly sort of um sneak off. But I, you know, I
00:40:48
>> You thrived in Yeah, I did. I enjoyed it. I was like, you know, this is all
00:40:52
good. you just push and push and push and you just got further and further and further. So, um and I Yeah. And then I
00:40:59
found that I didn't mind being yelled at, you know, being abused. You just go
00:41:03
in this, you know, listen to one out the other. >> So, >> so rugby was um you you covered a lot of
00:41:10
ground. You covered like two World Cups in that one answer just then. Um so, I just want to unpack that slowly. While
00:41:16
this was all going on, were you working on a rubbish truck? >> Um >> was that just a short chapter of time?
00:41:21
No, I was actually on the truck for would have been a few years. So I think leading up to that sour
00:41:28
to that first World Cup I was and a little bit after that actually >> cuz Rob was amateur then so there was no
00:41:34
money. You got 30 DMs maybe like a day range or something else. >> You know it was like you know 20 bucks
00:41:39
or something 30 bucks. >> Um not really enough to send home to the wife and say here pay the bills.
00:41:46
>> Here's $44. Pay the bills and feed the kids. >> Don't spend it all at once. Exactly. Um
00:41:53
uh yeah. Yeah. I I was I was working on the rubbish trucks then and um oh yeah that just I don't even know how
00:42:02
that came up actually. I you know I was I didn't have a career like a set career
00:42:07
path. Um funnily enough I was you know I was just going through life. I was playing rugby. People um people were
00:42:16
giving me jobs you know around rugby. Um yeah, I I would just go I you know really when I look back now you know I
00:42:26
should have committed to something and I I tell the kids and I tell whoever I'm
00:42:29
talking to you know go I haven't been in school so obvious for a long time to
00:42:33
talk to kids and stuff like that but I always used to tell them about you know setting yourself up first cuz you know
00:42:40
as we know it can be all over in a you know in a heartbeat. So, um I should have done that, but um but it kind of
00:42:48
worked out. >> Yeah. The rubbish truck thing would have been good for fitness, right?
00:42:52
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Jump jump jumping on and off the back of
00:42:54
a truck just running around K's every day. >> Y >> you wouldn't have had a GPS, so you
00:42:58
wouldn't know your step count, but you would have been covering a lot of miles
00:43:01
every day. >> We were, you know, you're running for um >> you'd be running for hours a day. Um and
00:43:08
and a discipline too because you like we started at 6:00. So, you know, you'd
00:43:14
have to get out of bed at 5:00, get yourself sorted, get to work. We used to um meet in Pam Muer actually and um at
00:43:21
the swimming pool there and we'd start at 6:00 and every day 6:00 till, you know, we'd be finished
00:43:29
at lunchtime or, you know, 1:00. They were the latest days. And you know that whole time you were just pounding the
00:43:37
street and carrying stuff. So it was really good in in more ways than one, you know, not just physically but
00:43:42
mentally as well. And um I think you know that that sort of stuff carried over. I got I got started getting a few
00:43:48
league offers actually and I went over I remember I was on the rubbish trucks at
00:43:52
one point and I went over and did a fitness test at Newcastle at the Knights and uh and came up. I think I was only I
00:44:00
was second to um Sam Stewart who was a Kiwi captain back in those days and that was all down to my um to my rubber truck
00:44:08
stuff. All the fitness fitness. >> Yeah. Yeah. So um they thought I was awesome.
00:44:13
>> This guy's fit. >> How did how did you um how did you have the energy for training and stuff?
00:44:19
>> Um you just got used to it. It was um you know you'd finish at lunchtime,
00:44:24
you'd have a have lunch and that and you'd have a little nap and then you
00:44:28
could train again later on. You just got the body just got used to it. Became it
00:44:32
became normal. Didn't even think about you know and I guess and you could eat
00:44:37
whatever you wanted. You could you could do whatever you wanted. Um you know I guess the body's a a wonderful thing.
00:44:45
You just you fuel it and it'll work for you. >> Actually he's previous podcast guest
00:44:50
probably about the same age as you. Mark Graham. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah. I think he was a brick layer.
00:44:54
So he'd work as a brick layer, then he'd have a loaf of bread and go to Carl Park
00:44:57
for a training and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You You just >> You guys were built different.
00:45:01
>> Yeah. I we'd eat pie like um so we'd start at 6:00 and then the first the
00:45:06
first sort of um first load was about 2 hours but by the time you're going to
00:45:14
you know to um to drop the load at the uh at the local tip um you know it's kind of 8:00 or something like that and
00:45:22
uh you'd eat pies. you just buy pies and at the gas station and that's all you
00:45:26
know pie pie at 8:00 or two pies or something and then um your next meal was um was lunch. You go home and you have
00:45:35
lunch and have a sleep. I don't know. It was just it just worked. >> But
00:45:40
>> when when did you first go to a gym? Gym wasn't a thing back then. >> No, no, no. Um first gym I ever went to.
00:45:47
Oh gee. Um I can't recall I think it might have been remember Jim Blair he was uh he was
00:45:56
a coach with the fitness he was the first I think uh Scottish guy he was the first guy um who became a um you know
00:46:04
the fitness trainers with the he was with the Oakland team >> and um I think I went to his gym first
00:46:09
in Kyber Pass. Uh yeah, I went I remember going for a um going for a fitness test actually for
00:46:17
Oakland and we went up there and uh doing had to do this rowing test and cycling all this, you know, was all
00:46:24
getting a lot more scientific then. Got through it, hopped in the car afterwards
00:46:29
to come home. Sat in the car, got all dizzy and just vomited all over the inside of the windscreen.
00:46:37
Oh yay. >> Yeah. So, so two World Cups. Um, there was the 1991 one for Samoa. Um, and you
00:46:45
guys did really well at quarterfinals. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. That was amazing.
00:46:49
>> Oh, it was so >> What was that like? >> That was so good. We um that was the
00:46:54
probably the one of the worst games we played making that semi uh quarter against Scotland. But um the whole
00:47:02
you know from the from the very very beginning you know it meant so much to Samour um you know to have a team that
00:47:09
was that they I mean they loved their rugby they are so passionate um but you know from the beginning where so you
00:47:17
know we had nothing but we'd go back and we'd we'd raise we raised money to to
00:47:22
enable us to go and uh that's selling raffle tickets you know the old pig in a
00:47:27
barrerow one where you walk around and and sell raffle tickets and and um but so we did that and man it was it was so
00:47:35
good. Went back to Selma, played in the trials and things like that and you know
00:47:39
some a lot of the island boys and it was and it was hard rugby back then too but
00:47:44
um you know they had they had their goal um good coaching group, good heap of good players and um get over there. the
00:47:54
good thing, you know, we we kind of took we took them by surprise really the you
00:47:58
know, the rugby world >> and um >> I I don't think the power of um of of
00:48:04
the Polynesian, you know, was was that well known up in the UK, you know, in terms of sport uh way back then.
00:48:11
certainly, you know, down here um appreciated, but uh you get up there and you know, we we went to Cardiff and and
00:48:20
uh and spent a week there, trained, lost a few people through injury, you know, over the over the week or so that we
00:48:26
were there and um and then, you know, built up for our first game against Wales in Cardiff. And that was just a
00:48:34
you know, all years you've been sitting there watching, you know, the All Blacks
00:48:38
play Wales and Cardiff. um Carter Farms Park, the old the old one there. And it was just so it was so and we were
00:48:45
treated really really well, you know, everyone um >> a lot of respect for the uh for the
00:48:52
Welsh and um get out there and then, you know, we beat them and that was just that was the beginning of so many things
00:49:00
for for a lot of people and um beat them. I think I think um man I think we sent sent about three or four of them
00:49:10
off you know having you know just Brian Lear and you know a few Apollo Perilini those guys just you know I think Apollo
00:49:18
Perilini broke two collarbones himself um you know of the >> he tackled hard. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. And
00:49:24
and Brian Limar, you know, they he went on to become known as the chiropractor just because of the way that he, you
00:49:30
know, I was saying to people, man, cuz I had to mark him. And there was another guy um Freddy Tuangi and uh his brothers
00:49:39
have gone on now. They're playing for England and well, they they did play, but um those guys, oh, you know, Brian
00:49:45
Lema, the chiropractor, you know, and he's playing rugby at 35, you know, 40
00:49:50
years old and still hammering people. said, "Man, you should have you should
00:49:54
have seen him when he was 18, 19 years old, 20 years old." And we had to we
00:49:59
went over to Sour and played in a trial and you know, I can't remember who I
00:50:02
was. Oh, Vayinga was this other guy, but we had marking Brian Lear and Fred Duangi. They were the two midfielders
00:50:11
and oh, there was another guy, Keneti. But man, it was it was tough. It was hard work but uh you know everything
00:50:20
that that did for sour and rugby um you know so worth it and uh I I would have had nothing if I hadn't been able to uh
00:50:29
to play for them. So >> yeah as a result of that at the age of 30 that's how your all black call up.
00:50:35
You must have thought that ship had sailed eh. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Definitely.
00:50:38
>> And then how does that come about? Do you get a call from from Lorie Mains or
00:50:41
is it from Colin Me who was the team manager? >> It was Lori actually. Lori. Was he nice
00:50:45
to you in that call? >> Oh, kind of. Kind of. Um, he uh yeah, so we we did that and you know I
00:50:54
was lucky because um you know the All Blacks hadn't gone well in the in the same World Cup. Um and there'd been a
00:51:01
change of um you know of coaching and management and Lori had been appointed and then yeah I get a phone call and um
00:51:08
and he asked you know is Lori Mains here? Oh yeah. Then he goes, "Um, well,
00:51:14
um, I'm thinking," he goes, "You know, told me, I've been the co I've been
00:51:17
appointed coach and blah, blah, blah." Which I already knew, but I, so I'm
00:51:21
thinking, um, you know, would you like an opportunity? And I was like, what? And he goes, um, if I picked you, you
00:51:29
know, would you, you know, would you, um, like the, would you take the opportunity, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:51:34
I was going, oh yeah, um, yeah. And he goes, I'm not promising anything. He goes, you got to perform. He goes, I'll
00:51:39
name you. And he goes, "You perform." And then he said, "You know, I didn't
00:51:43
promise anything and it's up to you." I was like, he goes, "But he goes, if if
00:51:49
you want it, I'll give it to you." I was like, "Right." Then I had to go about,
00:51:54
you know, I had to think about I had to go and talk to a few people, but you know, born in New Zealand, um, and a
00:52:02
rugby person born in New Zealand, especially in those days, you know, you wanted to be an all black. And yeah, I
00:52:08
did think the um the ship had sailed, but um you know, opportunity came back and then I thought, man,
00:52:16
>> if if I'm really really honest, I just I guess even by the time I'd hung up, um I
00:52:21
knew that what I was going to do, but I had to go through the process of, you know, man, what should I, you know,
00:52:27
what's the balancing act? Ask Peter Fats. And he was like, [ __ ] He goes, you know, all those years, you know,
00:52:34
I've been trying to get you and you come and you just were. So he started calling
00:52:37
me Frank once. He goes, "Oh, [ __ ] Frank once." Yeah. Oh. Um, yeah. So I told Lori, "Yep, yep.
00:52:46
Okay, I'm in." So that was that. >> And the timing couldn't have been better
00:52:50
cuz that's just when rugby was going from amateur to professional. >> Yeah. What was that like?
00:52:54
>> No. Oh, well, no, that was 1992 and it went professional in 96. >> But uh
00:53:01
>> Oh, okay. Right. Right. >> Yeah. But um Yeah. Oh, that that was uh in terms of it was difficult, you
00:53:12
know, because um you had to rejig everything, you know, everything you'd been doing for years and years and
00:53:17
years. So, you know, this year is the 30th anniversary of Super Rugby and uh or professionalism, but Super Rugby. And
00:53:25
um we had a uh when the Chiefs played their first home game this season, there's a group of the you know players
00:53:31
from the first very first Chiefs team that went down for a little bit of a celebration and um I think all of the
00:53:37
Super Rugby teams have been doing it. But we go down there and then we're all
00:53:40
having a you know reminiscing um but you didn't know what was going on. Uh Brad Morant who was our North
00:53:47
Harbor coach he came down he was our first chief's coach and Sid going and you know but you go down and you're a
00:53:54
professional rugby player professional footballer. How does that work? Um >> what does it mean?
00:54:01
>> Nobody knows you know as far as a few of us concerned it was just like oh well
00:54:05
now we we just get paid you know everything we've been doing our whole lives now we get paid to do. Not quite.
00:54:12
But um that's how we looked at it. But it was finding out. Um so how many times
00:54:20
a day do you train? Well, you know, what do you do? Um I remember Brad, he's
00:54:24
like, "So, you know, you always train and then forwards will go off and do their line outs and do, you know, all
00:54:30
the backs, you know, go out and, you know, do whatever whatever plays and moves that they had." But you do that in
00:54:36
the morning and you come back and you have lunch and then you go, "Now what do
00:54:40
we do? Gym sessions." And we'd never been to the gym before, you know, and
00:54:43
you're just going, "Fuck." Uh, okay. And then Brad's like goes, "Okay, forwards.
00:54:49
Forwards. Um, 2:00 we're going to go down the park and we're going to do some
00:54:53
lineouts." Okay. Okay. Beexs, um, well, you can come, too. And we were going,
00:54:59
"Oh, [ __ ] What do we want to go? What are we going for? Fuck." be a winner. He
00:55:02
goes, you know, he's like, "Stop the [ __ ] He goes, I'm the boss." And he
00:55:05
goes, "If I tell you to [ __ ] go and sit under that [ __ ] tree, he goes, you'll go and sit under that tree." And
00:55:11
uh he goes, "You work for me now." And you know, it was all all the games then
00:55:15
were 7:30 um at night rather than rather than 2:30 or 3:00 kickoff. So then you had to figure out, you know, the rest
00:55:24
and the when do you eat and, you know, um how to prepare yourself to be, you know, at your best at 7:30 at night
00:55:31
rather than 3:00. And then, you know, you finish playing and then you and then you um
00:55:38
they have they started all their warm downs and recovery sessions and stuff like that and that was all totally new.
00:55:43
So everything we were kind of guinea pigs really everything was totally new. um you know around around how to prepare
00:55:51
and then how to recover and how to act. Um as a professional you know you play a
00:55:55
game at 7:30 2 hours later or so it finishes then you go in and then you shower up and you do what you have to do
00:56:02
and then you're like well we got to go out for a few beers you know but it's
00:56:06
midnight by then. That's probably where Prince of Darkness came in cuz it's
00:56:10
midnight by then and you know it's hard to go out and find a bar that's open you know.
00:56:15
>> Yeah. >> At midnight. But >> anyway, >> what do you remember of your all black
00:56:21
debut? >> Um we lost but um >> who was that against? >> That was uh a world 15. We played
00:56:30
against the World 15 and uh and we lost and I remember thinking um because my brother actually my youngest brother um
00:56:41
before that first game he he rings me up and he goes you know all good. I said yeah yep yep you know
00:56:49
he goes [ __ ] don't embarrass us. said, "Hey, hey." So, uh, anyway, this
00:56:55
is all on my mind, you know, as I'm playing, but I was marking um Tim Hin, I
00:56:59
think it was. And, um, I remember I remember the loss, but um, I remember during the game, you know, the pace was,
00:57:08
you know, everything was just was just, you know, so much faster and you had to think quicker and you and I did come
00:57:15
away with doubts. I was thinking to myself, [ __ ] you know, can I do this? And um it wasn't until wasn't until I
00:57:22
don't know three or four games in where you start thinking, "Oh, okay. I can
00:57:26
>> handle the pace. >> I can handle." Yeah. Yeah. >> When I spoke to Lori yesterday, he
00:57:30
talked about how how good you were on defense, but also how deceptively quick you were on attack as well and how just
00:57:35
your rugby IQ, how you had the ability to like spot a gap before anyone else did.
00:57:41
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um >> you just adjusted to it. >> Yeah. Yeah. But you know, you there was
00:57:45
there was a whole lot more that went into it. Um and you know I I put this down to Lori too um as well but he in
00:57:53
terms of preparation the physical part of your preparation is the easy part. you know, anyone can get fitter, can get
00:57:59
stronger, can, you know, learn, you know, how to do this, how to tackle, how to all of that, but um you've got to
00:58:06
have your mind, you know, your your head. You've got to have that sorted out. And I was going I was going, you
00:58:12
know, I was having ups and downs, highs and lows with um in terms of form. Um you know, that first game that I played,
00:58:19
I I didn't really, you know, there's nothing you could say that you did this
00:58:23
wrong. you know, you did, but I just went through the game sort of not doing anything, you know, you kind of and um
00:58:31
and I I'm pretty sure, you know, not really showing any any potential, you know, for for growth. Um but so I was I
00:58:41
was I was up and down in terms of uh in terms of form and my confidence was was pretty low.
00:58:47
>> But Lori came in one day and he said, >> "You know, you've got to sort yourself
00:58:52
out. you got to [ __ ] figure figure yourself out. And he goes, so in the team um at that stage I don't think we
00:58:59
had was Mertz there. Grant Fox was first. And anyway, but there was there was old Mark Ellis and
00:59:07
you know there was a there's a group of people and he goes um figure out what
00:59:12
you can and what you you can't do. He goes, "You know, you got Mark Ellis can
00:59:16
do this and you know, can" and there were groups of guys mucking around, laughing, you know, not they were they
00:59:21
were that was in their preparation, but they could do it. He said, "You can't."
00:59:26
And he said, "So [ __ ] stay away from them. Find yourself a player, you know,
00:59:30
a quiet spot. Um, sit down and [ __ ] you know," and he goes, "Um, figure
00:59:35
yourself out." I thought, "Oh yeah, actually I think you're right." So I
00:59:40
started staying away from those, you know, cuz you get caught up. you just get caught up in, you know, they're
00:59:43
having a mucking around playing jokes and stuff like that and, you know, and then it takes away from the focus that
00:59:49
you really need to be putting into the test match. And um so I thought, "Holy
00:59:54
[ __ ] he's right." >> Started, you know, going away, moving away, you know, finding a quieter spot
01:00:00
at a certain point, move away, and then just start thinking about the game. And then I'd go through a I'll go through a
01:00:07
bit of a checkpoint uh checklist, you know, and you're going, "All right, I'm
01:00:12
I'm fit." You could always be a fitter, but you know, I'm fit enough. Um
01:00:16
injuryfree. Yes, I know everything I'm supposed to do. Um you know, this and
01:00:22
you know, chat with Walter mainly and you know, we we're okay. You know, we're
01:00:25
organized. Okay, I'm okay. So now so I just started thinking now and then visualizing you
01:00:33
know and that I can't remember who got me into that but you you sit down there
01:00:38
and you just just run through your mind you know of okay if they do this okay I'm all right with that I can move you
01:00:45
know tell Walter that I can do watch out for that guy might be coming in there you know and you just go through
01:00:50
different plays okay oh I'm then you think [ __ ] I'm okay I can and then that
01:00:57
had a you know because you go in confident and with the sports person it's you know confidence is huge
01:01:04
>> or lack of um but yeah yeah so uh from Lori having come in and said [ __ ]
01:01:10
sort yourself out you know figure out what you can and can't do and all that I
01:01:14
said okay went away and then my my consistency then from going from that my consistency just evened out and um got
01:01:24
to a point where I could just switch on when I had to and you know nothing crazy. I you know, not that not that I'm
01:01:31
a Mark Ellis type person, but you >> you just want to be where the fun is.
01:01:35
>> Yeah. But if you know, if people are having a laugh and stuff like that and
01:01:38
you know, you you can you can be in it and then you can just switch out of it and I can then I can just go along that
01:01:44
road and focus. So I think, you know, that was that was huge for me. And then everything kind of rolls on from there
01:01:51
when you've got confidence, you know, a lot of talking, a lot of um you know, a
01:01:56
lot of just connection. So, um, yeah, that's kind of how I I was able to to to
01:02:02
move through and professionalism. Well, what's that done for me? I cuz people used to say that the All
01:02:10
Blacks were the most professional team even though it was a fully amateur game, you know, they were the most
01:02:14
professional team out, but it was all mindset >> and I think um I think that's, you know,
01:02:19
that's really what got me there. And I don't know, I was I was able to I was
01:02:25
always able to, you know, to see things that were happening. Um, you know, you I
01:02:32
like if I'm coaching people now, um, especially young backs and that, you know, you you stand back and said this
01:02:37
is where you should be, you know, then looking at, you know, what's happening.
01:02:40
Where are they positioning themselves? Where's that wing? If he's over here,
01:02:44
then, you know, you got to be aware of something that might happen. And then you talk to your mate, your next, you
01:02:49
know, your your midfield partner or the other wings, you know, make sure everybody is switched on to the same
01:02:54
thing. And it it kind of after a while, you know, you're not even looking, you
01:02:58
know, it's we might be standing there and like, Dom, you see that guy over there? Yep. Yep. He's yours if he comes
01:03:02
out. Yep. Yep. Yep. Got that. Got that. And it's, you know, it just happens.
01:03:06
Just >> Wow. >> Yeah. So gets to a point where you don't even think about it, you know. Just
01:03:11
>> just instinct. >> It's just instinct. Yeah. >> Yeah. You and Mort Little, one of the
01:03:15
considered one of the greatest partnerships ever. Do you do Yeah. Do how often do you guys see each other
01:03:20
these days? It's funny when you get older, right? Cuz you you move in very different circles.
01:03:23
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Such a big partnership for such a long time. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll say and um you know,
01:03:29
when I first went over to North Harbor and Walt was there and and you know, connection straight away really. Um such
01:03:36
an easygoing person. He was one of the last guys who smoked you know him and Grant Fox. Actually, for [ __ ]
01:03:42
>> sake. You get a the game finishes and then you you walk into the change room
01:03:47
and you know you hear a you look around. Yeah. Walked up then >> different time.
01:03:57
>> Yeah. Oh, diff Oh, you know, he's just smoking there and um he smoked all the
01:04:02
way through his through his career. Um, I remember rooming with him and uh, you know, he he'd always go out on the
01:04:10
balcony or something at the hotel and have his cigarette. John Timu. One day I was rooming with John Timu and he comes
01:04:17
in and he's lying on the bed. He starts lights up a smoke. I was going, "Hey,
01:04:21
hey, hey, [ __ ] you know what are you doing?" He goes, "What?" I said,
01:04:25
"Fucking Walter goes out on the balcony to smoke." And John Timu goes, "Well,
01:04:30
I'm not [ __ ] Walter." I was like, "Fuck." Well, >> was was he more experienced than you?
01:04:39
Had he been in the team longer? >> Who's that? Walter. >> Um John.
01:04:42
>> Um Oh, yeah. He had cuz he came in, you know, the same time as Craig and Walter.
01:04:47
And they were all of the same. Um another guy, Jason Goldmith, who uh unfortunately broke his leg.
01:04:53
>> Yeah. >> But um >> yeah, he'd been in there a couple of
01:04:56
years before that, >> but um >> yeah, you know, what do you do? But you
01:05:02
know, Walter Wild Yeah. Some >> Yeah. Walter um you know, and so much ability. He had a
01:05:10
I think he had a knee injury for most of his um for most of his career. And uh but he could play, you know, great, you
01:05:18
know, skills, hands, fast hands. He could kick with both both feet. He could I think everything was natural. And um
01:05:25
he, you know, I say I didn't like training that much, but um he liked it less.
01:05:31
Um but you know he could play anywhere. He could that guy Ben you know in answer
01:05:36
to the first part of your question I haven't seen him for years probably. Every now and then you know we'll cross
01:05:42
paths uh >> you know talk or somebody will you know um but I haven't I don't even know where
01:05:49
he lives. He's over the shore somewhere but I'm not sure >> not sure where he lives. But um the good
01:05:55
that's a good thing too though you know you can pick up just like that. Um, if I
01:05:59
saw him if I saw him tomorrow, you know, um, it'll be just like >> 20 years ago.
01:06:05
>> And what do you talk about when you when you do see each other? You reminisce.
01:06:08
>> Um, not really. Not really. Just just about what's happening, you know, what
01:06:12
>> what's you know ask you always ask about the family and stuff like that. And uh,
01:06:17
>> and his wife Tracy, you know, those guys have been together. Man, they must have
01:06:22
been he still seems young. I don't even know how old Walter is now. He must be
01:06:28
what's Oh, he must be mid-50s now. >> But, you know, they those two have been
01:06:32
together for probably 40 years. >> Incredible. >> Incredible. Yeah. You know, had a family
01:06:37
and just living their life. So, um um yeah, you know, when you catch up, it's just, you know, what's going on
01:06:44
with the family and stuff and, you know, >> wherever you might meet, what are you
01:06:47
doing here or you know, just general sort of thing. >> I think a lot of male friendships are
01:06:51
like that and there's something quite um quite comforting about it. It's like,
01:06:55
you know, there's no bad blood between you. You just don't need to catch up all
01:06:58
the time. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> I've got this photo here, um, an iconic
01:07:02
photo. Michael Broyle from Australia just laying into you >> and he he wasn't um I'd sort of
01:07:08
forgotten about this, but I was researching this over the weekend. He wasn't sent off or anything. Eh,
01:07:12
>> no. No, he was I think he was just penalized. >> So, he just he just comes up to you and
01:07:16
um it only looks like he connects with a couple of punches, but there's maybe
01:07:19
like 10 unanswered blows. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, it was my fault actually because I elbowed him.
01:07:27
The ball came. Look at that Andrew Murdens. He's not even taking any notes. >> Just ignoring it. I don't want to I
01:07:32
don't want to see it. >> Christian Cullen, I think Christian Cullen walked past uh on the He's in the
01:07:38
shot in the background on TV. He just walks past and >> Yeah. Not my circus. Not my monkeys.
01:07:42
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, no. The ball the ball spewed out from someone from something
01:07:47
and I bent down to pick it up and uh because the leadup to that match was a little bit you know a little bit iffy.
01:07:55
There was a bit of few words, you know, said and, you know, I think Sam Scott Young was um was involved in something
01:08:04
with the Hucker and stuff like that and it was there was just a bit of words and
01:08:07
then they bought I think they bought Michael Bry in as a bit of an enforcer, you know, cuz they everyone had been
01:08:12
going on about how the Aussie forward pack were were soft and you know, all of this. Then they brought him in and uh he
01:08:19
had the ball spewed out and I bent down to pick it up and when I looked up he was right in my face and then I just put
01:08:24
raised my elbow up and you know snapped him right in the face and he just came back with about like as you say about 10
01:08:31
I think I the first one definitely landed and then after that I I think most of them sort of glanced off but um
01:08:39
about 10 unanswered. Yeah. >> Did it take a lot of restraint for you not to not to fight back or did you just
01:08:44
go into defense mode? defense mode. Yeah, that's what everyone goes, oh jeez, that was you you know you seemed
01:08:49
really disciplined. >> Yeah, that was that was good discipline. I was going no I just I just bent my
01:08:54
head down and closed my eyes basically. This will be over soon and then >> someone mirth has got to be coming soon.
01:09:01
>> Yeah, exactly. Little did I know he was off up the road. >> I heard a rumor that um you like he was
01:09:08
he Michael Ber held a grudge over you from something that happened like three or four years earlier.
01:09:12
>> Yeah. Um I I don't think it was but um we were playing um I think we were
01:09:18
playing New South Wales. we're on tour in Australia and he was offside, you know, leaning over in a ruck and and in
01:09:25
those days, you know, you could do this sort of thing, cleaning out the rucks and that and but he was he was um
01:09:30
leaning over and you know, just getting in the halfback's way so we couldn't
01:09:34
clear it and I couldn't not take the opportunity because he was he was leaning over and his whole the right
01:09:42
side of his body was open and I was just thinking, "Oh man, I can't not do it."
01:09:47
So, I went flying in and just cleaned them out. And uh there was a you know, there was a big big fight that uh that
01:09:55
ensued and um I think I got penalized for that. I think actually he went off. That's right. Yeah. But I got penalized
01:10:03
but you know. >> And did you lose your ear against the lions? Did you get your ear wiped off?
01:10:09
>> Yeah, I think it's >> It looks completely Oh, I can see a scar
01:10:14
up there. But was it completely removed? >> No. >> No. just hang out.
01:10:17
>> Yeah, it was split like that. Um, yeah, that was uh that was lying on the wrong
01:10:23
side of um of the rock and it was um what's his name? Bloody I can't remember his name. He was a
01:10:31
policeman, too. The guy who did it to me, Richard. No, I can see his face, but I just can't
01:10:37
can't recall his name right now. But, um yeah, I was just lying on the wrong side
01:10:41
of the rock and he just that was always a thing, too. you know, they always used
01:10:45
to go on about, you know, rucking um you know, about New Zealanders the way they
01:10:50
rucked and things like that, but um when the when the British tried it, they they
01:10:55
weren't quite as uh the technique wasn't quite there, you know, cuz they saw our
01:11:00
rucking as as stomping and stamping, you know, and and that. But um but uh yeah. Yeah, they just jumped in
01:11:09
and I think they were just, you know, we were rocking the hell out of them and they were they were when they were
01:11:13
touring, you know, they were playing Otago and Weta and all those teams that, you know, and they were, that was back
01:11:18
in the heyday when, man, you just climbed all over people and ripped their jerseys off them and and, you know,
01:11:23
scars down the back and things like that. >> That was a day when um, you know, you go
01:11:28
into the shower afterwards and the Fords are all in there with ruck marks, you know, and man, it was it was pretty
01:11:36
>> a tough game back then, though. Yeah, exactly. But um >> Yeah. Yeah. So, he just jumped all over
01:11:42
me and and ripped my I I didn't really feel it, you know. I was getting also
01:11:46
getting wrecked and things on here, but u I was lying on the ground and Doc May who comes over and he's like, you know,
01:11:52
lie down. You know, and he said, "Oh, you're you're here. Don't worry, it's
01:11:56
all right." Then he just taped it all up and I didn't know till afterwards, you
01:12:00
know, that it was that it was split. But, uh there was another fight after that. It was Oh,
01:12:08
but it happened actually again in um we're playing South Africa over in South
01:12:13
Africa and um Mark Andrews this and he uh I went to tackle him. The game had just gone on for seemed like ages
01:12:20
kickoff and gone on for ages and that and then uh I went to tackle him on the blind side and he bumped me and I fell
01:12:27
back and then he stamped I don't think it was on purpose but uh cuz I never used to wear a m mouth guard. You didn't
01:12:35
have to in those days. And um my my uh teeth, my front bottom went through my lip here. He stamped on the thing and uh
01:12:45
left me lying on the ground and you know they they ended up scoring a try and then they went back and they were
01:12:50
waiting. Uh went back for our kickoff for them and I was still getting treated and Doc um Doc comes over and he goes,
01:12:57
"Oh shit." He goes, "Um, you'll be all right. You'll be right. Don't worry.
01:13:00
It's just a you know, just a scratch or something like that." So, uh, they put
01:13:04
some some, um, jelly, you know, the bloody Vaseline on the cut and, uh, and I got up and ran back to halfway and
01:13:14
everyone was waiting. This game had gone on for ages. It was all over the place and, you know, backwards and then I got
01:13:19
knocked over. Then they scored and then they were waiting. When I got up and I ran back to halfway ready for the
01:13:23
kickoff and I looked up, there was only something like 3 minutes gone or or four
01:13:27
minutes gone in the game. I was thinking, how [ __ ] how am I going to blast this?
01:13:33
But uh our was all good. >> And the 95 rugby world cup. Yeah. You you mentioned Mark Ellis before being a
01:13:40
teammate. Um you played every single game in that World Cup apart from the game against Japan where he scored um a
01:13:46
record amount of tries. Six six tries. Tries. Yeah. Um what was what are your reflections on that tournament? Did you
01:13:52
get to meet Nelson Mandela? >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Met him a couple of times. Um only in um you know pretty
01:13:58
formal >> like ceremonial handshake. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But um and I think we
01:14:03
went to a yeah went to another you know it was a function and it was a formal function so it's not as if you really
01:14:10
got to interact with them or anything but um that um the tournament was great the um you know and being in in South
01:14:18
Africa I think that was the first time that they were involved in it. Yeah. So they weren't there in 91 or 87.
01:14:26
Yeah. So um you know that and they'd been out of the game. They'd only come
01:14:30
back into the game a few years earlier, but um you know after all that apart >> so um it was really interesting place to
01:14:38
to actually go back to but um you know in terms of that World Cup and the World Cups are you know it was just the best
01:14:46
because you know you're there you're all in the same place and you know it's the
01:14:50
best teams in the world the best players in the world everyone's there you know
01:14:54
with obviously the goal of winning the World Cup but when you're in a tournament you know situation
01:14:59
and um and everything is going on around you every day. It was [ __ ] It was bloody awesome. Really, really
01:15:05
enjoyable. And the good part was that we were >> we were in a really good a really good
01:15:11
um vein, you know, of a of really good form um a run of good form and uh had great players. Um you know, we really
01:15:21
should have taken that out, but um you know, you know what happened. Yeah, when I had Lori on the podcast
01:15:28
last year, he talked about this and talked about hiring private eyes and bookies and Susie the waitress. Yeah.
01:15:35
Were you food poisoned? Yeah. How do you reflect on that final? >> Um, you know, there was there was food
01:15:42
poisoning, but the the question is, you know, was it deliberate? You know, who if it was if it was deliberate, who did
01:15:48
it? And Lori think, you know, he seems to think he's got the answer, but no one
01:15:53
really knows. Um, >> it's kind of cool. That's one of those great sporting mysteries.
01:15:57
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And depending who you ask and you know South
01:16:00
Africans are like stupid. Yeah. Get over it. And um it still comes up, you know,
01:16:07
quite often. >> But um >> Were you sick? >> Yeah, I was a Yeah, I was a little bit
01:16:12
Well, see even that I I was a bit sick. I had um I know I just had the bloody diarrhea
01:16:18
>> and stuff. So then I went to doc and asked him for some I just said I just
01:16:22
got some diarrhea and I think it was you know it wasn't like the day the night
01:16:27
like the Friday night and then game on Saturday I think it was earlier in the week
01:16:32
>> and uh yeah I just went and got some had a you know my gut was a bit off went to
01:16:37
doc and um and he said oh [ __ ] you know and I think it was Craig Dow and Jeff Wilson and you know there was there were
01:16:43
a few guys that were like really struggling and then um >> I would say most of the squad had had
01:16:49
some issues but it was it was more the you know the preparation the training the you know um
01:16:57
just the stuff the organization of the uh of the week I think then you know that started um started to unfold a
01:17:05
little bit but uh you know in we still had opportunities to win the game in terms of that um you know we had a few
01:17:11
guys but we had good guys coming off the bench so you know still could have worked in our favor but um
01:17:18
>> you know 30 odd years later. Uh I think the right team won to be honest.
01:17:23
>> How how long does it Yeah. What's it like after the game and how long does it
01:17:26
take you to get over a loss like that? >> Oh, took a while. Took a while to get
01:17:31
over it properly, but um after the game, you know, you have all the ceremonies. You still have to have the the the the
01:17:37
prize giving and the ceremony and things like that. And we weren't flying out, I
01:17:42
don't think, for >> you know, three or four days after the final. So um we sat ourselves down in
01:17:48
the team room and went for about three or four days >> just drowning the sorrows.
01:17:54
>> Yeah, basically. >> Um but we went you know and there was a lot of stuff happening. I think um who
01:17:59
was that Louis late >> he was the he was the guy in charge of South African rugby at the time. Mike
01:18:06
Brewer went up and abused him at the thing and then abused the referee, you know, accepted a gold watch or something
01:18:11
and, you know, there was all this other stuff going on, but uh it takes you a while to get over a a big, you know, a
01:18:17
thing like that. A World Cup is a pretty big a pretty big thing to miss out on. >> Well, I suppose you get you get back
01:18:22
home and you're so high profile at the time, like every day someone's stopping
01:18:26
you to chat about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. And it was Yeah, it was amazing. And I think I
01:18:31
think too because we um you know we played such good football up you know during the um during the event and uh we
01:18:40
were clearly the the best team there but you know you still got to win everything.
01:18:44
>> Yeah. Um yeah we touched upon Mandela before. I've got another iconic photo
01:18:49
here. Uh yourself with her you see the queen and uh Sean Fitzpatrick and Jonah Alu. Who's the guy on the who's the guy
01:18:56
in the corner? Is he with you guys or is he >> who's that guy? Is he Is he an all black
01:19:00
or is that part of the queen? >> This guy here. >> Yeah. Who's that?
01:19:04
>> I thought that was uh Oh, hang on. Let me >> chuck your glasses on. But I got
01:19:09
glasses. Are yours plus ones or are you going >> uh I don't even know actually.
01:19:16
>> Oh, it's um what's his name? Oh [ __ ] Yep. He's in all black.
01:19:24
>> Doesn't matter. I'll fact check it later. But yeah, it's great. You and you
01:19:27
and Jonu and and the queen right there. You met her on a couple of occasions just y that's all that you see that's
01:19:34
the great thing to you know that rugy's given you know you travel you you meet
01:19:40
so many people and um and and you don't really see at the time you know it's
01:19:46
awesome you know we're going to the we're going to the palace Buckingham
01:19:49
Palace meet the royal family it's fun and it's good and but you know you're
01:19:53
always kind of focusing you got something else to focus on you know in a few days and in the next week or so Um
01:19:59
but uh you know the doors that it's open you know that rugy's open the um
01:20:05
opportunity to travel I'm still traveling for rugby you know now I'm going to Angola actually in a in a
01:20:13
couple of months and um you know a lot of people that that don't really know who I am or you know know a
01:20:20
lot about rugby oh when did you play you know oh [ __ ] 30 years ago people what Um
01:20:28
no the um the opportunities the um ah just the experience you know >> I was I was I remember being with Eric
01:20:37
Rush actually at um I don't know if it was that time but h what's that guy's
01:20:42
name that's coming back to me in pieces now Gordon um Gordon >> we'll look it up online
01:20:50
>> yeah but um I was with Rushy and we're at um Buckingham Palace and uh you know, we're
01:20:57
all lined up and he comes the royal family comes out and and he uh the queen, you know, and Diana was there and
01:21:04
and Prince all of them were there, you know, and we're all there and it's and
01:21:09
uh Queen's there. The only time I got nervous was when the queen was around for some reason. The rest of them you
01:21:14
can talk, you know, just it's ordinary and then the queen turns up and you're
01:21:18
just like, "Oh shit." You know, you straighten up and you kind of, you know,
01:21:22
hands out of your pockets and just seemed to be the thing to do. And uh afterwards Rushy goes he goes hey um cuz
01:21:30
I looked around. We we all standing in a line and I kind of looked up you know just the queen's coming here and I just
01:21:35
kind of looked up and I saw Rushy looking at me. I was like then go back to the queen. Oh yeah. And uh and I said
01:21:42
you know when uh when I was just about to shake hands with the queen. He said yeah. Said and you know I looked up and
01:21:48
you were looking at me and he goes and you you know he was had a big smile on his face kind of look. And I said what
01:21:54
you know and he goes [ __ ] He goes, "I was just just at that moment." He goes,
01:21:58
"I was looking around." He goes, "And I was thinking to myself, [ __ ] you know,
01:22:03
Buckingham Palace." He goes, "Man," he goes, "I was looking at all the art on
01:22:06
the wall, and you know, we're inside this room." And he goes, "And then I
01:22:09
looked, you know, I could the um the other members of the royal family." And
01:22:13
he said, "And I just looked down." He goes, "And I looked over at you and
01:22:15
there you were just about to shake hands with the queen." And I was going, and he
01:22:20
said, and I thought to myself, "Fucking hell, look at us." And he goes, you know
01:22:24
where we've come from. And he goes, and then I thought to myself, he goes, and I
01:22:28
thought, [ __ ] hell, a moldi from Otara and a [ __ ] coconut from a. And he goes, and look at us. He goes, [ __ ]
01:22:35
look where we are. And I was going, yeah. Oh, man. And then u I said, you know, look how far we've come. And then
01:22:43
it became a bit of a thing. We're in New York and we're at the Empire State
01:22:48
Building. It's like, look around. Where's Russia? you know, two guys from South Oakland
01:22:54
and then, you know, Eiffel Tower brushing, you know, and it became a thing everywhere. You go different
01:23:01
places and look around and there's my South Oakland mate still bloody there.
01:23:06
>> Bro, that gave me goosebumps. >> That's really really cool insight from
01:23:10
Rushy to have that um your level of uh presence at the time to realize how you know how how big it was.
01:23:15
>> Yeah, it says a lot about him actually. He's, you know, I don't think Rashy's,
01:23:19
uh, you know, got as much credit as he, as he deserves, like, you know, and even
01:23:23
now, so he's a lawyer. >> He quit law when all the rugby when the discussion was going on about the um,
01:23:31
you know, the where where the rugby turns professional. Um, you know, the what was that, Rupert Murdoch thing that
01:23:38
was um >> Oh, that's right. Yeah. Um, what was it called? Some rebel league.
01:23:43
>> Yeah, the rebel thing. Yeah. So um we got so sick of having all these meetings
01:23:48
around it that we said right he goes you know you're a lawyer said you go to all
01:23:54
the meetings and if it's good enough for you then it's good enough for us and he
01:23:57
was going oh [ __ ] I don't want just you know we've had enough sick of it so he
01:24:01
started going to the meetings and he said it was just a nightmare just the money so he basically quit law because
01:24:08
of that because of his experience around that >> and um he went and became a he painted
01:24:13
houses was with his father and then he got into the supermarkets and stuff. So, but um
01:24:18
>> no no he's [ __ ] he's been and he's been there from the beginning me and we we um
01:24:24
we um debuted for Oakland on the same day in the same game and um you know he's bloody huge
01:24:32
>> incredible. >> Yep. Yep. Done really really well for himself and you know puts a lot back
01:24:36
into not just rugby but into his community up there. And you know, as I was saying about Jonah before, he's had,
01:24:42
>> you know, such such an impact on on so many people. >> Um, and King of the Sevens as well.
01:24:48
>> Exactly. >> So much to do with um the Sevens. I've got another photo here which is just
01:24:52
just iconic. Uh, it looks like a a looks like a boy band. >> So, who is it? Cully. Christian Cullen.
01:25:00
Uh, Jeff Wilson. >> No. No. Cully's not there. That's Oh, no. It is either little short.
01:25:07
>> He looks tiny. Yeah, I reckon I was going to say that's Stewie Foster, but
01:25:11
it's not. >> Look how well dressed you guys are. You look like a boy band.
01:25:18
>> She Jonah with a big leather coat. Of course, he had to have all the expensive
01:25:23
stuff. >> Yeah. What was it like being in that team environment when um these these
01:25:27
like absolute game changers and superstars come along like first of all first of all Jonah and then Kelly?
01:25:33
>> Yeah. >> What's it like? Um well, you know what I was saying before
01:25:38
about, you know, having been in that um >> lucky to be in that era, you know, when
01:25:43
those guys came along. I don't think I've seen a better player than Christian
01:25:46
Cullen, >> you know. Um >> he's got to be, you know, as an attacker, you know, the excitement that
01:25:53
he brought to the game, you know, he got the ball and he just did magical things.
01:25:58
And um you know for a guy that um you could barely get him out of bed. You know he when we when we were touring you
01:26:06
know you you get up in the morning you go and you train in that kid go back and go straight back to bed and you know you
01:26:12
get up at oh I'm going to lunch where oh what are you guys doing? Oh I'm going to
01:26:16
lunch and then the you know boys are going to go and play golf or we're going
01:26:19
to go down such and such and he goes nah [ __ ] that I can't be. And he basically
01:26:24
he he train in the morning, he'd have lunch and then he'd go back to bed for
01:26:27
the rest of the day. And you know his touring was was kind of all like that. Um and you couldn't get boo out of him,
01:26:34
you know. >> He was so shy. >> Yeah. Yeah. But now you you know he you
01:26:39
listen to him and he knows what he's talking about, you know. So um >> yeah, I think I was mates with him in
01:26:44
partners to North at the beginning of his career and um I remember when he broke onto the scene, a lot of people
01:26:49
thought he was like dumb or something, but he he wasn't dumb. He was just really shy.
01:26:52
>> Yeah, exactly. >> Super super shy. And he's he's um always
01:26:55
spoken very highly of you. Like I think he found it really hard to be accepted in that all black environment at the
01:26:59
time. Like it wasn't >> as an inclusive environment as what it potentially is now.
01:27:04
>> Um back then you had to sort of earn your stripes and prove yourself. But um
01:27:08
he was always really appreciative of how you treated him. >> Oh, that's nice to hear. Oh, yeah. I
01:27:12
always wondered about that. You know, that uh um the back seat, you know, all of that culture.
01:27:17
>> Yeah. That that culture was Yeah. was never any good. I mean there's there's
01:27:21
no reason to why why would you do that you know and um but you know no he he certainly came in and and proved himself
01:27:29
and you know you he's he's up there with the best ever that guy >> but you know so so Jonah you know Kelly
01:27:37
Jonah who just came in and just >> rock star yeah just ripped things to pieces you know Jonah and for a kid a a
01:27:46
young island boy from South Oakland who, you know, he went from nowhere to just,
01:27:52
as you say, the rockstar and uh and then, you know, the the influence that he's had on on the game, on the, you
01:28:00
know, young guys, you know, who've come, you know, years and years. I was in
01:28:04
Egypt. I did a um intrepid journeys thing there. And uh and it was when they were overthrowing the um the government
01:28:13
over there. And um >> oh man, it was huge. It was it was awesome place at the time, you know, to
01:28:19
be >> it was scary as anything, but you know, to be in there was like really exciting
01:28:23
in there. And we'd go up to people >> and you're you know, interviewing or
01:28:28
whatever. I go and ask a question about and be like, um, where you from? You know, oh, New Zealand. And people, you
01:28:35
know, this in the middle of [ __ ] of Egypt. Um, New Zealand. Oh, Lu Lomu. and you just go [ __ ] they got no idea
01:28:44
about you know about New Zealand as a whole but um you know the impact that he had you know changed the game changed
01:28:51
the the rugby I guess the landscape and still is you know for for good. So, um, that guy and then he, you know, he turns
01:28:59
up and people used to used to tease us. Oh, [ __ ] You know, your game plan is get the ball to Jonah as quick as
01:29:06
possible. And then, of course, it is. What's your problem? >> Yeah, exactly.
01:29:11
And yeah, get the ball to Jonah as quick as possible. Back him up. Done. >> Oh, yeah. Lori told me some story about
01:29:17
you you you setting Jonah up for a try and it was some move that you practiced in training, but it wasn't supposed to
01:29:21
be used. It's called the double dummy. Oh, hang. I've got it written down.
01:29:29
>> There's some some move uh the double dummy cut. Does that mean anything to
01:29:33
you? >> His memor is good for 80, isn't it? >> Yeah, I reckon apparently some some move
01:29:38
you came up with for training which was never supposed to be used for a game and
01:29:41
it was like to keep things exciting for Jonah. And then uh Colin Maids or Earl Curtain said to Lori, "Do you think
01:29:46
Frank's doing the double dummy cut?" And he goes, "No, he wouldn't [ __ ] dare."
01:29:50
And apparently you you did it. You gave the ball to Jonah. He scored and >> Oh yeah.
01:29:54
>> Yeah. >> Sounds about right. >> Still holding a grudge. >> Exactly.
01:29:59
>> With uh with Jonah, you know, you go Jonah, you know. So you set up, you set,
01:30:05
say there's a scrum or something. You sit and you go Jonah, you know, um come
01:30:09
out, you know, outside Mertz or come, you know. Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. And then get the ball and you run and you'd
01:30:15
beat people and you know, I don't know, run 20 m or something and do and then
01:30:20
get tackled. You get it back and go back to his wing and you know the play would
01:30:25
go on. Say the ball goes out. Okay, Jonah. And he goes, I can't. I can't. We
01:30:30
go. What's wrong? Injured. No, no, no. I can't. I can't get there. You know, I'm
01:30:36
tired. Just [ __ ] get there. [ __ ] you know, and then he'd do it and he'd
01:30:43
do, you know, he'd run 30 meters and beat six players and then, you know, get
01:30:46
dragged down just before or or he'd go through and score, you know, and then he
01:30:50
come running back and he go, "Fucking hell, I can't do it. I can't do it. You
01:30:54
can do it." >> You know, he's he always had a little a little doubt, you know. I think it was
01:30:58
more his fitness, not his ability. But, um, you know, you always, you know, you always worry, oh [ __ ] can I get there?
01:31:04
Can I do? And um you just had to bloody, you know, that was that Brown brother thing to that island, you know, you
01:31:11
could talk to him like that just [ __ ] you know. >> Yeah. Cuz you're quite a bit older as
01:31:15
well. And yeah, Lori talked about this how much he respected you guys. >> He um Yeah, he told me he um roommed you
01:31:21
guys together once. Jonah was struggling with his weight. So he roommed you with
01:31:25
Jonah so that you could be like his food police. >> Yeah. As if I was going to be his food
01:31:30
police. Lori was his food police. But Jonah was eating, you know, 12 eggs or something,
01:31:36
10 eggs at breakfast time. But no, he um yeah, he he you know, we were his buffer, you know, lorries to to
01:31:45
Jonah. But um Jonah respected him, you know, fully. Uh it was just a communication thing, you know. M
01:31:53
>> um Jonah, young, you know, brown island boy from South Oakland. Lori, older
01:32:00
white guy from I don't know where the hell he was from. >> Southland. So, you know, those two were
01:32:06
never going to meet, you know. >> No, no way to communicate with. >> No, no. Lot a lot in common, but you
01:32:12
know, it's just a matter of, you know, how you going to communicate things. And
01:32:15
that that went both ways as well. >> Jonah was um like notoriously generous.
01:32:21
like it's it's infamous the stories you hear about him buying cars for young
01:32:24
players at super rugby franchises and um picking up like a ghetto blaster in every new town for the team bus or the
01:32:31
hotel room. Did you ever try and like talk him out of being so >> nah shell? No [ __ ] I've still got two
01:32:38
cars in it. He bought me my teeter. No, I um now I just let him, you know, I there's
01:32:52
no way I was ever going to tell him not to do things. I was, you know, you you can give advice. You can say, you know,
01:32:58
there's no need to be to, you know, like the, you know, the the music, that side
01:33:04
of things. There's no need to buy, >> you know, go out and buy things for that
01:33:08
and and uh, you know, big bloody boom boxes and you don't have to buy a new and you don't have to buy someone some
01:33:14
headphones and you don't, you know, it's all that sort of stuff. But he was
01:33:19
>> his own man. >> He was his own man. Yeah. And I think too he um, you know, he hadn't come from
01:33:24
money, >> but he also he, you know, he had a pocket full of money at the time and he
01:33:29
was making more money than everybody else and he just that was just his nature. M. So
01:33:35
>> yeah, he sounds like the loveliest guy. I I had Steve Divine on the Did you Did
01:33:39
you overlap with Steve Divine? Yeah. And he he told a story. Um you were in Transit in LA and he had um the hacker
01:33:45
burned on a a like a CD cuz he wanted to learn the hacker for his debut. Um so he
01:33:50
was in the duty free store looking for a discman and Jonah was like, "Oh, just
01:33:54
yeah, just borrow mine." And then at the end of the trip he went to give it back
01:33:57
to Jonah and Jonah was like, "No, man, just keep it." >> And um those discs discman were like
01:34:01
a,000 bucks back then. Yeah, it's just nothing to him. >> Yeah. When we were rooming together cuz
01:34:06
I used to get Jonah to um carry my bags and stuff like that. That was all part of the seniority.
01:34:12
>> Yeah. And um he'd come up and you know put the bags in and you go up to the
01:34:19
room and he's lying on the bed cuz back in the day you know you had a a double
01:34:24
bed or whatever it was and then a single bed. You'd come in and he's lying on the
01:34:28
double bed and just like hey what the [ __ ] and he's like, "Oh, see my bed."
01:34:33
Oh, well, sorry. Then he off onto the other bed and and lie there and um he he'd spend his time, but you know, you
01:34:40
wake up in the middle of the night and look over and he's got the music blasting and his but his feet are
01:34:46
hanging over the edge and stuff like that. It's just like but he used to go up and after training
01:34:52
um you know, you going to have a you going to have a shower or um bubble bath, you know, after training. I said,
01:34:58
"Oh, I might do a bubble bath, actually." Okay. So, he'd go up and he'd
01:35:02
run me the bubble bath and stuff like that and then make me a cup of tea and bring me biscuits and you know, see, I'm
01:35:09
talking 30 years ago, too. But, um, you know how they used to have little cookies or something?
01:35:14
>> Yeah. Wrapped up in the hotel room. Yeah. >> So, he'd bring those and you go, "Fuck,
01:35:18
come on, man." He'd run down the shop and come back with some nicer biscuits
01:35:22
and stuff like that. And >> Oh, that's so cool. >> Always fun. And it must have been a
01:35:27
really special relationship because um yeah, you were a a pbearer at his funeral. Another iconic photo I've got
01:35:32
here. Uh Manu. >> Yeah. >> Is that Joel Vader? >> Yep. >> Yeah. Yourself. Not sure who's just
01:35:39
behind you, but that looks like Sir Michael Jones and maybe um maybe a Ronnie Clark as well.
01:35:45
>> Oh, Dylan Mika. >> Oh, Dylan Mika. >> Yep. >> Michael Jones.
01:35:50
Yeah. Not too sure who that is. too early. >> Do you remember when you heard about um
01:35:56
his passing? Because it was quite sudden, wasn't it? >> Yeah. Um >> jeez,
01:36:04
>> I think he'd been over in the UK doing some promo work for Heineken or American
01:36:08
Express or something and then just sort of came back. >> I can't even remember who told me to be
01:36:13
honest. >> But um even just looking at that photo, you know, Joel's gone. Dylan Mik's gone.
01:36:19
>> Yeah. Well, he's not gone, but he's >> he was gone for a couple of years.
01:36:27
>> No, he seems to be in a good place now. I saw a boxing fight over the weekend.
01:36:31
He did really well. >> I saw that. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, uh, no, no. Yeah, Jonah's and, you
01:36:36
know, a lot of that cuz no one even really knew he was sick, >> you know, and he went through all of his
01:36:42
all black stuff, you know, having carrying that um those issues. M um you know he could have man imagine
01:36:52
um had he been 100% imagine what he would have been >> otherwise. Yeah. Yeah.
01:37:00
>> Um but yeah jeez >> I can't remember I can't remember where
01:37:05
uh where I was even when I when I heard >> but um yeah you know at 40 he was
01:37:13
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. painfully young. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And uh but I
01:37:18
knew he was struggling. You know, he he'd made a made a few comebacks to rugby and things like that and not never
01:37:24
really, you know, worked, I guess. But um you know, it says a lot for him because, you know, he was still getting
01:37:31
contracts and things like that from >> Yeah. >> You know, even even if it didn't work
01:37:34
for them on the field necessarily, >> you know, the um >> association with Jonah in their club
01:37:40
room, you know, was, you know, was more than more than about rugby, I guess, to be honest. But um he's he's a one in a
01:37:47
million, you know, and >> I you'd have to say that he was, you know, he's he's been the best. He's, you know,
01:37:57
like the best ever, I think. And and not just purely in ability, but just the way
01:38:01
he changed things, um changed the trajectory of uh you know, of the game of the the
01:38:09
professional game, you know, and put it out there into the into the world. And I
01:38:13
was um when we were rooming together, you know, we'd come home um from wherever, from a day out or training or
01:38:20
whatever. And the number of letters, the the amount of mail that was in our room,
01:38:26
you know, fan mail for Jonah was man, it was just so it was crazy. >> Wow.
01:38:33
>> Yep. And you know sometimes you would push the door open and you know the
01:38:37
envelopes get stuck under the door and it's like oh but you know just fan mail
01:38:42
people outside the rooms all the you know I felt sorry for him actually a lot of the time because he was he was shy as
01:38:48
well young shy and um but so much attention you know and I think it was um I I think it was pretty tough for him
01:38:57
you know to to get through that >> but um on the field you know he'll always be remembered for jeez that 95
01:39:04
World Cup I guess. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Was it No. Oh yeah. 95 where he ran over
01:39:10
Mike Cat. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. With the with the um Yeah. The infamous um Keith Quinn
01:39:14
>> quote. Exactly. >> Apparently he dropped his paper or something. So he had something that he
01:39:19
was going to he was going to say, but he dropped his notes. So he just went, "Oh,
01:39:24
love." >> Yeah. It must have been um strange for you like being um so close being like a
01:39:29
mate to him. And there's some stuff that he went through and it hasn't aged
01:39:32
particularly well. Like um like when he got married without inviting his parents
01:39:35
and then he had to go on like a nationwide go on the homes show to apologize along with John Hart.
01:39:40
>> You look back now it's none of anyone's [ __ ] business. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No,
01:39:45
>> but I think too that was um you know early days of professional >> you know professionalism or professional
01:39:52
rugby and uh no you know it was that learning that learning curve you know where nobody really knew the only thing
01:39:59
we had to go by was you know was um the closest thing was rugby league >> you know in Australia and you know
01:40:06
they've had their issues over the years um and I guess they took what they took
01:40:11
from American football who's you know which is even worse But uh yeah, it was
01:40:16
it was all a a huge learning curve and you had to you know a lot of people did things that they probably would never
01:40:23
even contemplate now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You just say no. I'm not you know
01:40:27
imagine imagine now you know I need you to come on and explain yourself on television at 6:00 and or 7 sharp. You
01:40:34
know >> with the coach sitting next to you. Yeah. It's unthinkable. >> Yeah. Yeah. You'd be like what the [ __ ]
01:40:40
What was your do you think your proudest moment as an or um um I don't know actually if I had the
01:40:58
probably the fact that I actually made it, you know. >> Oh, you didn't just make it though. Like
01:41:04
um making it is one thing but then 55 tests and being considered as one of the greats.
01:41:09
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm pretty proud pretty proud of that when I look back on
01:41:13
that. Um >> and the fact that uh the fact that it is kind of still going, you know, what I
01:41:19
still get asked to do stuff because of that. >> So, um you know, I'm I'm proud of what I
01:41:26
achieved and when I look back now and and everything that I've done, you know,
01:41:30
and um that's, you know, you said, do I reminisce at the beginning? And yeah, I
01:41:35
do. And this is the reason why. It's because you get to remember and you know
01:41:39
you bring up things that that um you know I haven't thought about for years or I've never no one else has ever
01:41:45
brought up you know and that sort of stuff >> and but they're good memories.
01:41:48
Everything is good you know there's there were obviously they were tough parts but
01:41:54
>> by the by the most part >> you look back and they're good memories.
01:41:58
>> Yeah they're great and you know people that you meet >> and you will know them for the rest of
01:42:03
your life. You know, another thing I'll go on about Rushy, but Rushy goes, he
01:42:08
goes, "You got no friends?" You know, you move, say you move to a new country,
01:42:12
he goes, "You got no friends." And he goes, "Go to your local rugby club." He
01:42:16
goes, "You'll have [ __ ] hundred friends just like that." And that's the
01:42:20
beauty of the game where you can travel the world and you can turn up somewhere,
01:42:24
you know, you find a rugby club and you go down there and they go, "Oh, you
01:42:28
know, where you from?" And New Zealand is another is, you know, opens doors for
01:42:32
you. But you go down and Oh, yeah. Played in New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Dad, come over here. You know,
01:42:37
>> great way, >> especially if you wear one of your old jerseys. Have Have you still Have you
01:42:41
got your jerseys anywhere? Have you got any Are you a memorabilia guy? >> Um, no, not really. Not really. I've um
01:42:48
I've got a suitcase of, you know, every now and then, you know, if you move home or you doing clean up
01:42:56
at home or something like that and you you pull out boxes and suitcases and stuff like that and some of my jerseys,
01:43:03
you open the suitcase and I've still got an all black suitcase from the ' 90s,
01:43:08
you know, which has got them all in there. >> Open it up, dust and crap everywhere.
01:43:12
It's like you pull out jersey and you go, "Oh, yeah." But, you know, they've
01:43:16
been in there for 30 years, for 20 years since I got them. And I've every now and
01:43:21
then you go, "Oh, [ __ ] That's right. Oh, [ __ ] This Yeah. Then you put them
01:43:25
back and then you, you know, forget about them. >> Forget about them again." So, I've got
01:43:30
I'm recently, you know, going through um a big big clean out and stuff and and
01:43:36
you know, there's all these photos and, you know, just programs and things like
01:43:40
that that I didn't even you know, I wasn't I'm not a collector by any means,
01:43:45
but you know, these things come back and you just pick them up and it's like,
01:43:48
"Oh, that's right. Forgot about that. Forgot about that." >> And
01:43:51
>> so, you're not a framer. There's none of them framed on the walls?
01:43:54
>> Nah. Um, not really. I gave I gave, you know, a lot of my all black jerseys to
01:43:59
rugby clubs and things like that and oh, >> charity fundraisers, auctions,
01:44:03
>> they'll put them on the wall. Buck Shelfford said to me, um, you know, uh,
01:44:09
give your stuff away. He goes, you know, he goes, cuz he said the same thing and
01:44:12
he goes, you know, he goes, I've got an all black tracksuit from 1986. And he
01:44:16
goes, what the [ __ ] use is that? You know, [ __ ] goes, what am I going to do with a [ __ ] You go, oh yeah. He
01:44:21
goes and then you know say so you someone comes and asks you and you go oh no I don't want to give this he goes and
01:44:27
you know I should have given it he goes give your stuff away to you know people raising money for charity you know all
01:44:33
of that sort of stuff he goes cuz you know it's going to be no use to you in
01:44:36
30 you know 50 years and stuff and and he's right I've got a couple you know
01:44:40
I've got my all black cap um >> and I've got a I still got a couple of
01:44:45
older jerseys you know that um uh you know the first ones >> yeah Um but uh
01:44:52
>> that's all you need. A couple of key pieces. >> Yeah, exactly.
01:44:55
>> Um how did you find the adjustment to life after rugby? I'm just thinking like
01:44:58
some of the stuff we've talked about, you know, like like meeting the queen,
01:45:02
you know, being in New York with Rashy and all all these big things. I just wonder after that if if life seems to
01:45:09
lack a bit of color. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, the pace of life just feels so
01:45:13
slow so slow after that. >> Well, that's the thing, too. You know, I've I've enjoyed that. I've been there.
01:45:18
I've enjoyed it. But, you know, I don't necessar I don't have to be the leader
01:45:22
of the pack anymore. I don't have to, you know, I I don't look for excitement
01:45:27
and stuff like that. But, um, oh, when you first finish it, I I struggled. >> Um, and I wasn't sure why, but you know,
01:45:38
I I struggled to relationships and things like that. Um, you know, even holding relationships. Um I went so I
01:45:47
finished here and even the way I finished was you know wasn't great. Um because I I'd kind of come to the end
01:45:55
and I knew it in my mind and I John Hart had came in and uh you know we we talked
01:46:02
um he said you know you let me know when you you know when you're ready when
01:46:06
things are when things are ready when the time is right he said and we'll manage your you know your exit.
01:46:12
>> I was like okay. Then you go through all of this and and uh I was thinking to
01:46:17
myself and it was I just couldn't be bothered going through the you know the
01:46:21
the buildup to test matches and stuff. I could I was still fine physically but mentally I kind of wasn't there anymore.
01:46:29
I didn't want to go to you know to Wellington say you know for the whole week and prepare to play a game. Um I
01:46:36
was still fine playing the games but that's not how it works. So, you know, >> oh, you wanted the Saturday, but not the
01:46:42
Monday to Friday. >> Yeah. Can I just come down on Saturday morning? >> Yeah. And so, all of that, you know,
01:46:48
that makes >> sense. Yeah. There was just a whole lot going on. I just said, "Ah, can't be
01:46:51
bothered anymore." And, uh, then I started and Joe Stanley actually, um, he
01:46:57
was a player agent and he rang me up and go, "Oh, got a couple of um a couple of
01:47:01
offers, inquiries about you, uh, for you." And, uh, one was in France and and
01:47:07
one was, where was the other one? in England. But um I thought, "Oh, France,
01:47:13
you know, always had a bit of a, you know, interest in France, another culture, you know, all of that sort of
01:47:18
stuff." I thought, "Well, yeah, it sounds right." So, we decided that we'd
01:47:22
go up, go to France. It was going to be really, really tight because um we had an all black trial coming up and uh so
01:47:30
we thought, "Ah, we'll sneak it in. We'll get up there." Football World Cup
01:47:34
was on in France at the same time. So, this was late 90s and uh so we thought we'll get up there. We'll do what we
01:47:42
have to do up there. See if it's going to work. If not, we'll still make it
01:47:46
back in time so that I can play in the um in the all black trial. >> Yep. Flew up there. Um strike, airline
01:47:54
strikes, um lost baggage, all of this stuff. pilots went on strike because of the football world cup and they wanted I
01:48:02
don't know we just so ended up missing oh I got back like a couple of days before the trial but John Hart was
01:48:11
ringing in you know was um the media it was all this speculation anyway and uh we'd been avoiding John Hart and uh John
01:48:20
Hart and Joe Stanley are tight you know they're like that when they finally come
01:48:25
through and The phone rings. Oh, now Hardy was talking to uh to um Joe and we went we
01:48:34
you know did all this stuff in France. Hardy was talking to Joe and then um I I don't think I was there at the time but
01:48:41
he came back and he goes you need to ring um you need to ring Hardy tell him you know what's going on. I was like oh
01:48:48
[ __ ] I didn't want to cuz you know conflict you know I'm not really a conflict person but uh so anyway the
01:48:56
next next day and I rang him up and I thought h morning in New Zealand okay his his uh secretary or whoever was
01:49:05
she'll answer the phone that'll break the the ice a little bit and then pass
01:49:09
it on. Okay John Hart speaking. I was frank that was good. Oh. Um. Uh. Oh, Hardy.
01:49:18
Uh, Frank. Frank Buds. And [ __ ] there was like on TV, you know, where I held it. He just went for it. I held it back
01:49:26
and he was swearing and I was going like this and Joe was going, "Oh, fuck." And
01:49:29
he was he goes, "Fuck it." Then when he calmed down, just chatted to him. He
01:49:34
goes, "Oh, it's um" He goes, "I've had to [ __ ] lie to the media. I've had to
01:49:39
tell, you know, and I've had to I don't do." He goes, "Fucking hell. How do you
01:49:42
think this looks?" Which was fair enough. I was in here. Um yeah. And anyway, we got back and when
01:49:49
we we flew back and we had to have a meeting at the airport, Joe went to come in and he went, "No, you're not you're
01:49:55
not welcome." So, he waited outside. We had a meeting and he said, "I can't I
01:49:59
can't play you in the I can't play you in the um trial." He said, "You know,
01:50:03
you've just got back and two days later we're supposed I can't I can't do it.
01:50:06
It's not fair." >> I said, "Oh, that's all right." He goes,
01:50:09
"Fuck it." Said that was how my all black career ended >> and uh that was the way it was. So it
01:50:15
leaves leaves a bad taste in your mouth. You have this amazing career and then it
01:50:18
just sort of ends with um like a like a like a disappointment. >> Yeah. Yeah, it did. But uh um Hardy um
01:50:25
he he apologized to me actually probably a few years later. But um >> you know he um just the way that it all
01:50:32
happened. But I you know it was my fault as well. Um he said I could have done things better but it was a lot of
01:50:37
emotion at the time and anyway it worked out. But um I in saying that I I did struggle after that because you do
01:50:47
something your whole life you know and and especially when the game not not even when it went professional but with
01:50:52
the All Blacks you know and rugby you've got your week you prepare for something
01:50:58
on the weekend right done next week same thing done next week and you know that's
01:51:03
most of your year and uh when you're doing that and it's all fully controlled
01:51:09
you know you got to be there at this time. You got to need this, you got to do this. Yep. Yep. Yep.
01:51:13
>> And uh one day it's not there >> and you kind of you're a little bit
01:51:18
lost. >> So, you know, I went through I went through probably a good few years of
01:51:23
trying to find myself, you know, and as I was saying, relationships, went to France in the end, got injured, and then
01:51:29
I was, you know, that was all over the place as well. And um I kind of never really settled down, man. Probably
01:51:36
probably 5 years after after that. Do you think in hindsight there was like an element of depression there?
01:51:42
>> Possibly. Yep. Yep. You know, you're kind of lost and but I I also found that
01:51:50
I I missed um I missed the physical there was no out I had no outlet you know um I missed getting knocked around
01:51:57
and you know trained the physical aspect of of all of that and u you kind of you
01:52:02
know you're always you know it's just like you know what what's going what's
01:52:07
wrong? what's a big part of your your life and your identity and who you are
01:52:11
as a person and suddenly it's no longer there. How how do you rebuild and find
01:52:14
out what what the next chapter's going to be? >> Um you and this is the advice that that um you
01:52:23
know the young guys are getting now. You plan you plan before you you >> before it's time before you retire. You
01:52:31
know it's pretty hard to retire and then figure it out. So, um, >> it takes time just to build something
01:52:37
new, doesn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, think about it now. You know, if you're if like a young
01:52:42
guy who's, you know, who's in right in the middle of his career now, everything
01:52:46
seems rosy, but it comes around really, really quick as you know, and, uh, you know, your your age, your, you know,
01:52:53
circumstances change. So, um, start planning now, start thinking about things now. And, yeah, you know, I was
01:53:00
lost for for ages. And I think I think a lot of the training now uh I think they're doing the right things for the
01:53:07
um you know for the young guys with um giving them options you know and and there's there's dedicated people in
01:53:15
terms of careers and and the after you know the aftermath of of rugby. And um again we were the guinea pigs you know
01:53:23
and at the beginning and then at the end you're kind of you are you are left on
01:53:28
your own um you know as a as an ex player. um getting a bit better now. There's there are some some avenues that
01:53:36
you can uh you can take but um you know everything was a learning curve the beginning all through the the the the
01:53:45
beginning the the early years of professional rugby and then how it ends for you. So um
01:53:52
>> you know that's the hard part and and you know a lot of for a lot of guys it
01:53:55
hasn't ended well. >> It's tough isn't it? So, um, what has life post rugby looked like for you?
01:54:02
You've done small businesses and stuff. >> Yeah. Yep. Um, I've, um, I did a lot of,
01:54:08
um, a lot of TV stuff early, you know, Sky and TV3 and, you know, did a >> not that I was a bloody, um, was no
01:54:17
Keith Quinn, you know, far from it. >> Well, there's only one Quinn, you know,
01:54:22
I was a comments guy and very happy being a comments man. Um but even then you know when you're doing three and
01:54:29
four you know follow the All Blacks on tour and >> you know it just becomes a little bit
01:54:36
you become a little bit blasze you know it's like a [ __ ] broke me the game is
01:54:40
the same doesn't matter you just change the name of the teams >> and um I got a bit sick of that and then
01:54:45
being away >> uh you know all the time I was I was um away doing rugby when you know the
01:54:51
family was at home. >> Yeah. And then I was at home when they were all at school and stuff like that.
01:54:57
So that kind of wasn't working and uh just got a bit tired of that. And then
01:55:01
bought into a um I used to I used to work in a tire shop when I was at school in the holidays. Friend of mine um a
01:55:08
friend of mine's father had a tire shop. So we would go and work in it. And uh
01:55:13
then a guy rang me up and he said, "Oh," he goes, "I'm going to go and look at
01:55:16
this tire shop. You know, you interested?" I was like, "It's been a
01:55:19
long time." guess I'll just come down and went down and started working in
01:55:23
this tire shop with him and uh I thought, "Oh yeah, this is all right."
01:55:28
Um so I ended up buying it off him and they had had that for 14 years. >> Wow.
01:55:34
>> And then uh got into another one. >> Were you actually working in there? Were
01:55:37
you on the tools? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So uh it was, you know,
01:55:42
>> maybe it gave you some of that physicality that you're talking about
01:55:45
before. >> Yeah. And I've I've never minded the, you know, the physical nature of it. And
01:55:50
you're still lifting heavy stuff. And so there's another one in Pukakoi now. And
01:55:55
um >> uh you know, so still still work there. Still still on the tools now. I'll
01:56:00
probably have to leave here and then go back and see what's going on. >> I knew you had some businesses, but I I
01:56:05
just assume you bought into them and had people running them for you. No, you're
01:56:09
in there. >> A bit of that, but uh yeah. No, no. I I don't think I could ever sort of like
01:56:14
people say to me, "What are you going to do when you retire?" It's like, "Fuck,
01:56:17
it's true." And I used to get a lot of people that would come into the shop and
01:56:21
um who had retired and had nothing to do, >> you know, and they were like, "You've
01:56:26
got to you got to have something to retire to rather than just retire from."
01:56:31
So yeah, that's really so true. And >> you know, they'd want to hang around for
01:56:36
hours talking just to, you know, just pass the time and you're just going, "Holy hell." But, you know, I can't I I
01:56:43
don't think um I don't think I could, you know, I'm 64 now. I don't want to
01:56:48
retire in when I'm 65. >> I'm Yeah, I'm a I'm a firm believer.
01:56:52
Like, you you need that purpose to get out of bed in the morning, otherwise you just fade away.
01:56:57
>> Um, so 64 years old, no one no one gets to the privileged position of living to
01:57:01
64 without going through some real tough periods or big adversities. What do what
01:57:05
do you think for you would be the biggest adversity? Um >> you sort of talked before about that um
01:57:12
transition period from um being a professional rugby player to not would that be up there?
01:57:17
>> Yeah, that's up there. But um because you don't know what it is, you
01:57:22
know, what's what's causing what are my issues now? You know, what what's
01:57:26
causing me to be feeling like this and relationships? um you know um the breakdown of
01:57:35
relationships. >> Um I think family's always been good. Kids always been good, you know, and you always have
01:57:45
regrets with your kids. Um you know, especially my first three, the older the older three, and I was doing a lot of
01:57:51
touring around back then, you know, I think I could have handled that better. Um, but I I think um
01:58:03
a hard I think it is that that transition really. You got you've got to get that right, you know, if you want
01:58:08
the rest of your life to >> if to to to be to turn out, you know, um how it should or how you you want it to.
01:58:16
>> Um you really got to get that transition right. You got to get the end of your
01:58:20
career and then the beginning of your next life. Um, you got to get that um get that sorted. I don't think I've had
01:58:27
really huge regrets, but um >> yeah, that that piece that finding that next piece is easier said than done, eh?
01:58:35
Because um you might have an idea, but then you might start doing it and realize that it's not bringing you joy
01:58:40
or you just don't really like it. >> So, it's finding that thing that's going
01:58:43
to spin your wheels. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. >> Are you are you happy these days? And
01:58:47
when do you think you've been your happiest? >> Um yeah, I know. I'm I'm pretty happy
01:58:51
these days. I think um being my happiest because I was my daughter's moved to um
01:59:01
with her family moved to Perth um very recently and uh we were going through I sent her some um pictures of uh you know
01:59:11
when she was really young and uh I'd come back I'd come back from overseas
01:59:15
and I was with so there was in the picture there was me and um and Yeah. And we're talking she's 35 now. So man,
01:59:25
she must have been and that's almost 25 >> 27 years ago. >> And uh of these couple of Italian
01:59:34
friends and uh and another mate >> and I showed her this sent her this photo took a you know on the phone and
01:59:42
she comes back and she goes, "Oh, they were such great days." And then I was
01:59:46
thinking, [ __ ] they were actually there were like I um I even though I was traveling and I wasn't back, you know,
01:59:54
they'd come over um my kids would come over to uh to Italy or to France, you
01:59:59
know, and and uh we'd spend time over there together and then we'd come back
02:00:03
and we lived together in the you know, in in the house and every it was it was carefree. Yeah. You know, and there were
02:00:09
no issues. Um yeah, things were just Yeah. >> simple. >> Simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you know,
02:00:18
you you had I don't know. And I think, you know, it's a bit about the state of
02:00:24
the, you know, the the times we are in at the moment. You know, it's it's hard
02:00:29
work out there for, you know, for families and for, >> you know, for kids and stuff like that.
02:00:34
But it seemed life just seemed so much better, you know, back then. And I think it was too, you know, it's I was talking
02:00:41
to my my family with my my daughter moving. We were all at the airport and stuff and you're talking to your your
02:00:48
family about it and turns out that there's a couple of them that were also thinking my brother-in-law was telling
02:00:53
me he was trying to get my older sister to go and she said, you know, I'm not
02:00:57
I'm not going I don't want to go and live in Australia and I don't either.
02:01:01
And another, you know, another of our siblings was saying, ah, you know, we still live in your mind. you still live
02:01:08
in the New Zealand that you know that we were brought up in. >> And it was
02:01:13
>> it was joyous you know >> you there was there was we were always positive you know we you could you could
02:01:20
make your life you could forge your path um and there always seemed like there was hope you know.
02:01:27
>> Yeah. Yeah. And this this is coming from you who, as we established at the
02:01:30
beginning, was raised in a house with um 10 people >> and one income, >> you know, so bare bones sort of stuff,
02:01:36
but still somehow better >> better. Yeah. I say that to to just my my wife and she was
02:01:44
>> um you know, they were raised pretty well. >> Um and I often find myself saying to
02:01:50
you, see, it's it's actually better being poor. you know, you you get you you get raised
02:01:57
a certain way, you know, when you when you don't have everything >> and uh everything that you want,
02:02:03
everything that you can hope for. >> But um sometimes, you know, you just your expectations aren't as high, you
02:02:10
know, and uh >> it's good and bad, but you know, I don't want to be destitute, but
02:02:16
>> you know, I got >> Yeah. Were you you had a few years of um earning like I suppose good professional
02:02:21
money. Were you were you good with your money? >> No. No guarded. >> Yeah.
02:02:25
>> Yeah. There was no sort of financial literacy at the time, was there? >> Exactly. And you know, if you
02:02:30
>> I think if you don't come from money as well, you don't really know how to how
02:02:33
to manage it, how to handle it. You know what? You know, we had no idea about investments and you know, in shares and
02:02:40
and things like that. >> Um so yeah, could have been a lot better. Could have been sitting a lot better,
02:02:48
but um ah >> hindsight, >> hindsight could have been a lot worse. >> Yeah, absolutely. What do you think your
02:02:53
best and worst habits are? Or if if Jessica was here, what would she say your best and worst habits are?
02:02:58
>> What did she say, D? >> No, I I haven't spoken to her. Um she's she she would probably say that um
02:03:07
not not that I could uh not that I could necessarily do maybe maybe you know aim
02:03:13
a little higher >> um in terms of uh in terms of of goals and um she she hates it when I bloody sit on
02:03:25
the couch and watch TV for for too long cuz that's just a waste of but uh it's
02:03:30
one of those things. No, she she'd just tell me that um she's always been encouraging, you know,
02:03:37
always. And uh and that I could I could do really whatever I turn my hand to. And actually, I got no doubt that I
02:03:44
could, >> but um >> some things you do, you want, you know, you want to do and and other things you
02:03:50
don't. And and I'm kind of happy in my >> Yeah. I I know right at the very end, right
02:03:56
when I'm, you know, on my deathbed, I'll go, I should have bloody >> should have applied myself.
02:04:03
>> Yeah, exactly. But, you know, there's always regrets. >> Yeah. What um Yeah. Do you have regrets?
02:04:10
What are your regrets? >> I I regret not staying at school. I should have furthered my education.
02:04:18
Um, but you know when you're young and you know you're teenage just getting around
02:04:24
that age and you think you know best and you know >> cuz I I could have done I could have
02:04:29
done so much more even though I'm happy with what I've done. I could have done
02:04:34
you know more and even in different areas. But um I think it's it's that I
02:04:40
should have stayed at school. um the transition part, you know, I I probably didn't listen to, you know, to to some
02:04:49
people to some advice I was given. Um but apart from that really >> Yeah. And relationships, past
02:05:00
relationships, you know, there's >> some of them could have been handled
02:05:04
>> handled better. Oh, yeah. Well, you live and learn, don't you? Are you are you um
02:05:08
are you shocking at communicating with serious? >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I'm I'm learning though.
02:05:13
>> Oh, bro. Same here. >> Constantly a work in progress. >> Yeah, it is. It is. And that was that
02:05:18
was another thing on that on Treasure Island, you know, we sat around the campfire and just chatted and they were
02:05:25
the that that was the best part of the whole thing where um where the cameras are gone, you know, the day's work's
02:05:32
finished and you've had your rice and beans and then you're just lying around.
02:05:37
There's no social media, there's no phones, there's nothing, you know,
02:05:41
there's you're in the moment and you're just lying around and then, you know,
02:05:45
you just start talking and it's amazing what comes out. It's amazing what you
02:05:50
talk about and what you know, we'd be sitting here and we'd be listening cuz
02:05:55
we've got all the time in the world and then we're just listening to you talking
02:05:58
about you know your life and your relationships and you know and then the next person says something and then it's
02:06:04
your turn and you know so the like it's just really opened everything up and and
02:06:10
um you know I found that uh >> um yeah just being able to do that >> uh Like I found it was like so good for
02:06:21
me, you know, as a person. And >> you know, obviously you're younger than
02:06:25
me, but we're still of that era where it's just hard to open up. >> It's hard that vulnerability piece. It's
02:06:32
really difficult. >> It is. It is. But I mean, there's it there's no reason once you get through
02:06:38
that, there's no reason to, you know, to be like we were, >> you know.
02:06:44
>> Yeah. There's a better way. >> Yeah. There's there's a there's a better
02:06:46
way. You just got to you just got to be open to a little bit of change, a little
02:06:50
bit of it's uncomfortable. It can be uncomfortable, but >> it's so much better than sitting there
02:06:56
and going, "Oh, [ __ ] you know." >> Yeah. >> Old men, you know, I always laugh now.
02:07:02
You know, you look at, "Oh, it's woke. Oh, it's good. Oh, it's" and you just
02:07:06
go, "Fuck." Just get on with the [ __ ] If if um if your kids or grandkids were
02:07:12
here, uh what three words would you like them to use to describe you >> as describe me? Oh, yay. Um
02:07:21
>> three different words to describe you and your character and your personality.
02:07:26
>> Yikes. Um, real, genuine um, loving >> and um, what I say real or genuine. Genuine
02:07:55
loving and >> two great words so far. >> Genuine loving and happy. >> H
02:08:04
that's a great set of words at 64. Genuine loving happy. >> Yeah. >> Are awesome words.
02:08:10
>> Yeah. >> That's what other people say about you. That's awesome.
02:08:13
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Especially the people that matter the most. >> Yeah. Yep. That is true. my um my
02:08:18
daughter that's just left uh Samantha, she said that um my so my oldest son,
02:08:25
he's he's 40, but he's he's caring and he's, you know, he's one of he's one of
02:08:31
those guys. He's he's got soft nature. >> Then there's Sam who's strong as
02:08:37
anything, like really strong willed and you know, and then Jordan is the next one who's early 30s, 30, 31, something
02:08:44
like that. and um he's had his he's had his issues but nothing serious but uh
02:08:51
he's over in Perth now as well. But my daughter Sam said that you know she's
02:08:56
talking to Jordan and she talks to um you know with her her kids and stuff like that. She goes and the really good
02:09:03
thing is you know he's been bought up especially Jordan and because he's got a
02:09:08
he's got a macho attitude and stuff like that little you know but soft side. Um,
02:09:13
but she goes, "No, it's because, you know, he he's got no issue saying I love
02:09:18
you." You know, and his her kids and but they go, you know, he's grown up
02:09:26
like that, you know, he says, "I love you and he's he can hear it." And he
02:09:29
goes, "But that's because you've always said that >> and to me." And I said, "Oh, yeah." She
02:09:34
goes, "Yeah, you've always been open around us like that and you know, you
02:09:38
said I love you and you know, we can talk like that around you and it's it's
02:09:42
just a natural thing for him now." And I was thinking, "Oh, cuz and I know I do
02:09:46
say it to them and I've never it's never been an issue." And I thought, "Oh,
02:09:51
that's actually it's nice to hear." So, >> you're hearing it validated. Yeah.
02:09:55
>> I've done some good stuff. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> That's cool. Are you proud of yourself?
02:10:01
Um, I'm proud of myself. Yeah. Yeah. Generally, I'm proud of myself. you
02:10:06
know, I could have done things I could have done a lot of things a lot better, but generally in terms of what I've
02:10:13
achieved, where I've been, um, and I'm I'm a little loathed to say where I've
02:10:20
come from because that, you know, that puts um that puts it on my parents, you know, cuz then they I go, "Oh, to have
02:10:28
come from here to here means that once we were we were down there and we had nothing and stuff, but, you know, I was
02:10:34
always loved. Um, always had everything I needed. You know, I was >> roof over your head, food on the table.
02:10:41
>> Exactly. And never ever felt >> Well, apart from a few times I got a
02:10:46
good hiding, but you know, from my mother mainly. My mother was a disciplinarian. My father wasn't.
02:10:51
>> You What was her What was her weapon of choice? >> Vacuum cleaner pot.
02:10:57
>> Yeah, I got the bell. Dad, dad would always And sometimes like mom was never
02:11:01
the mom would be like, "Wait until your father gets home." Then hours later we'd
02:11:05
get the belt for something and you couldn't even remember what we' done.
02:11:08
>> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Or the uh there's a like a new there's a toughy. It's like it's a
02:11:15
broom but it's all these strands of Yeah. So you get whacked with that. >> But um
02:11:22
>> you've you've done well. You've done well. You say you could have done more.
02:11:24
But um I mean the stuff we've covered today like you've done a lot. You've got
02:11:28
a big family, a lot of grandkids. um this incredible playing career which puts you in the legend status. You've
02:11:34
done a lot. >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I have actually. And um I I should finish out, you know, I say
02:11:41
that I I want to make 80. I should actually do something with the next 15 or 16 years. Something that I actually
02:11:48
That's the problem though. Think of something. Jess, what do you want to do?
02:11:53
What are you going to do for the next five or 10 years? >> Yeah. >> How's this been today? We've been going
02:11:58
for 2 hours 10 minutes. Um I I I went through every single podcast that you've
02:12:02
been on previously and uh there's only a couple and they're rugby based ones and
02:12:06
they're a lot shorter than this. Have you found it okay? >> I have. Talking about yourself for this
02:12:10
long. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't mind as long as you know you ask the right
02:12:15
questions, you know, you uh you I don't mind opening up, you know, and I I'm in
02:12:21
that space now as well. I don't you know, I got nothing to hide. M. >> Um, so it's amazing. 2 hours 10 minutes
02:12:27
went just like that and that's when you know it's been good. >> Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time
02:12:32
today. It's great to see you back on TV on Celebrity Treasure Island and um I'm
02:12:36
really excited to see what you do next or or maybe you won't do anything next
02:12:40
and that's fine, too. >> But um mate, I'm I'm just pleased to connect on this level and see that
02:12:44
you're happy and content with life. So cool. >> Cheers, Dom. >> Frank Buny, a great New Zealander.
02:12:49
>> Thank you, mate. >> Cheers, mate. Beautiful. Heat. Heat.