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I was a different person when I got out to what I was when I went in because I I was fully criminalized. I
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was fully criminalized when I got out. I was fully committed to the criminal ethic to the point that I hated cops.
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Mhm. I hated cops. I hated uniforms. I hated bus conductors. I hated anyone wearing a uniform. It was It was sort of
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drilled into us in jail by the inmate social code that the worst filthiest thing you could ever be called
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is to be called a policeman. That they were They were the scum of the earth. Mhm.
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You know, and um and I I had a real chip on my shoulder when I got out uh in that sense. Mhm. But when I started
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writing my PhD working on my PhD and I started interviewing prison officers uh because I it was on the history of
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the maximum security prison. So, I was interviewing prison officers who'd been
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prison officers in the '50s and '40s. It It was from in the post-war period with focused on.
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Um I got to talk to a lot of guys. I realized that you know you build up this image of this evil
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person. It's like you You'd be the same if you were a terrorist, really. I suppose the
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IRA had that mentality as well. You develop it. And and coppers have the same mentality about criminals. You see, it's
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them and us. Um and then I realized, well, you know, they're just actually human beings like
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us and Doing a job. And doing their jobs and And and and And then I got to know quite a few cops through running
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marathons cuz there's quite a few cops running marathons. Oh, they're not bad blokes after all,
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you know. And and and Now, of course, I I get on really well with police and >> [snorts]
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>> And um and you know, Greg O'Connor became a friend of mine. We became
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friends and So, I changed as well when I got out.