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the United States at all with this huge stigma. Right. If you've got out of jail, and I've been to the States quite
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a few times. You know, I can't go there now since 9/11, but um but I've been to state
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states well over a over a dozen times to conferences where I given papers at at the big conferences
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over there. And they they're totally different attitude over there to uh criminal. So, there's a real stigma.
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A real stigma. To the point where I was once at the uh at the Hyatt staying at the Hyatt in
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Chicago or somewhere. And um and there was some a group of criminals, ex-criminals,
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had got together and they were doing work on the hotel as a as a a company that was doing the putting in the
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drywalls. And you know what? There were people outside pamphleting the hotel. Dear um Hyatt customer, did you know
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that the that the company that's installing drywalls into this uh hotel are criminals? Do you really Do you feel
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safe in this hotel knowing that criminals are working in this hotel? True. And there was a big and there was
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the picture with the with the message of a rat holding a a bag of money. And that's That was true. I couldn't
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believe it. >> Mhm. They were pamphleting the bloody hotel and these guys were trying to make
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a go of their lives. >> Mhm. Yeah.