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[Music] Kiwis love a thirst. Like Finn, we're making [Music] [Applause] [Music]
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waves. Generate switch online [Music] today. Jason Ryan, welcome to my podcast. Thanks, Dom. Great to be here.
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Great, mate. Great to have you here. We're recording this um on a Sunday morning.
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um in January. So you're in Oakuckland for the Sale GP and Luke Combmes. Yeah.
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Yeah, it's been a and and the All Black camp coming up at the end of the week.
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So I've just uh been privileged enough to spend two days with the the team, the
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Sale GP. Got to know um Pete and Blair really well. They're good mates and um
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yeah, they're pretty inspiring what they what they do. So it's been great to get
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right alongside their team, fully embraced in it. Seems like there's um like a bromance going on with um the
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three of you. Yeah, we get they they caught up with you at the end of year tour last year and now you're out on the
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boat with them. Yeah. And invited them into the sheds. We brought them in and got them a few tickets after the
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America's Cup and they were right on then and um was a bit of downtime for them. So it was nice that they could
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come in and spend some time with us even though it was pretty short with the team
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but then afterwards as well and Scott Dixon came in as well. It was quite a cool time after that England test. Yeah,
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it was really good. Do you get anything from these people in terms of like picking their brains about you high
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performance sport or are there any parallels between you know yaching and rugby? Yeah, there well obviously the
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sports are a lot different but I think that's when you learn the most around
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the their different ways of planning and how they adjust under pressure. So that's what I that was the main thing
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that I wanted to get out of them was listening to their communication, the messages that come through their
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headpieces and the decisions they got to make, but how quickly they got to make them. And like Sale GP is I've spent I
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spent some time with them a few years ago when the America's Cup was here, but
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it's just a totally different concept. You know, all these boats are all exactly the same and they don't even get
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to service them really and then they put on the water and then it's go race them.
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So you got the technology side of America's Cup whereas this is like sailors really going toe to toe. So um
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yeah they're they're really good. They complement each other really well.
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They've been massively successful New Zealanders, you know, like right from a
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young age group. They've won everything and um they continue to do so. So um it
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was really good. Enjoyed it a lot. I I don't know what you could get from Pete
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Burling. Like it's hard to imagine a more laid-back character than him. Like
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he's just he's just never never rattled. Hey, what's interesting? I remember um
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in when we came into team New Zealand and Grant Dalton um did a bit of a preo, it was myself and Razer went with them
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and um they said, "Oh, these two boys are pretty much the Mccor and Carter of
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the sailing world and you can see which personality is which. It's pretty clear,
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you know. Um Pete's really thorough, diligent, accurate when it's tight and
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makes the decisions on the field, you know, and um Blair's got a lot of information that he's given him and
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talking about the strategy side of it. So they both compliment each other, so they're good. So who is Jace Ryan? Yeah.
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Well, it's a great question. Um if you can't answer that, nobody can. Oh well I um yeah look I got a bit of a
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different story I guess to a lot of other coaches effect if effectively like I I was brought up in a um in a strong
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family I got a um sister just one sister my mother and father were um as dad's
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builder he was exuilder now he's retired um and mom is she used to work in a
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chemist years ago so um it was a a pretty strong typical Kiwi family really and um we came up and we did a lot of
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camping together when we were younger and um I used to do a little bit of work for dad. Um I think it was only one
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day. I walked home from work once but uh that was another story for another day.
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But um it was probably best that we didn't work together. But I um look, I I I'm just a young
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young Kiwi lad that's came came up from really humble beginnings and um made the
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most of an opportunity that I was given through a coaching pathway, a qualified butcher, did my apprentichip um for a
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few years in the butcher shop and then um worked for a mining and drilling company where we sold mining and
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drilling gear um through to the west coast and around New Zealand and then slowly started getting into some footy
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Um, yeah, things sort of took off. Really took a big risk and here we are. Yeah. So, did that answer your question?
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Some coffees now. Okay. Thank you. Oh, JJ's just coming now. Um, I'm curious
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about you and your old man. Whatever. So, your playing history 180 games for the Senam Club. Yep. Which is like
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family club. Your dad played for it, your son plays for it now. Yeah, it does. uh six games for Buller in 1999,
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14 for the West Coast from 2000 to 2003. Um and then into coaching, Black Ferns,
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NZ under 20s, Canterbury, Crusaders, and All Blacks. Yeah. With what you know now
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about, you know, coaching at the highest level imaginable, when you look back on
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your playing career, do you think like you could have done more or you could have been better? You know what I mean?
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Um possibly if I had have known a little bit more around what professionalism is.
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um you know like it was a typical club scene back those days you know where it was
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um couple of training days a week and then game few beers few more beers few more beers but um obviously that's not
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how you can sort of operate in the professional environment but I learned a lot I got a lot of people um in the club
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that are you know good good mates that I stay in touch with and I try to go back
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there whenever I can always watch my son when I'm at home I don't always go to
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the rugby club, but um I try to when I can cuz it keeps you keeps you level, you know. Um everyone's got an opinion
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in there. I don't mind sharing it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's um yeah, it's I guess the coaching
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side of it when I got into that in the amateur level, that's that's got some
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stuff that I've carried with me right through to now. So you're the All Blacks
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um scrum coach. What does that mean exactly? Forwards coach. Forwards coach. Yep. So, I do scrum, line out, attack,
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and D. Um, and I do so all the one-on- ones with the fords, Ford pack. U Razer does a little bit of work with the loose
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forwards now as well. And then, yeah, it's all about preparing those guys um
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up every week to to succeed. What makes a great scrum? eight guys all doing the same
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thing and um having a lot of timing together and cohesion as a unit with a pretty uh competitive mindset to go
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forward really. So on average like training for the All Blacks like what does that look like for
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you? A training day? Yeah. Um depends on on what stage of the week it is. Um like
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the you know beginning of the week we're just trying to get into any new information that we need for the
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players end of the week we sort of step back the coaches hand it over to the boys the end
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of the week so I've got anywhere between 30 to 40 minutes over two blocks over
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the beginning of the week and then it dials right back to you know 10 12 minute blocks really but you got your
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constant coaching um in the in the room if it's the lads coming in going through reviews and all
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that. It's not it's more than on the grass. I spend more time with the boys
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off the grass talking to them and green tea in the old room if they need to have
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a chat about some stuff and all that sort of thing. So is that like your your sort of your crew, your posy? So you're
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mainly just hanging out with the forwards? Yeah. Like a little gang. The low the low numbers pretty much. Yeah.
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Yeah. What? The the low numbers that are worn on IQ's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no,
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they got plenty of IQ. Don't worry about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's the
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biggest misconception about forwards? Um, it depends who you talk to really. Like, um, you know, I think the stats
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are pretty clear that you need, you know, we know that our role is to give the the backs some quality ball so they
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can score tries and and play some good rugby, but um, you know, we got some good men in the All Blacks.
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Yeah. So um 2022 that's when um you got the call up for the all black job from
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um Ian Foster Fuzzy who was coach at the time. You remember that? Yeah, I was away in Fiji. Were you on the radar?
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Like did you did you have an inkling that you were, you know, going to get shoulder tabbed or anything? Um no, not
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really. I um I was away coaching Fiji and I just finished super rugby and yeah basically was just going
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around the a few of the villages in Fiji which was awesome. Um spending some time
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with those guys and um couple of messages pinged and then yeah there's a bit of a phone call and I
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didn't really know what was going on. So I need to a little bit of homework myself around what the situation was and
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that sort of thing. So, um, what do you mean? I'll just find out what what was
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happening, you know, like are you offering me a job or and I needed to I needed the first person that I called
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was Razer. Um, first person rung him before my wife, before my family, anyone. I said,
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"Mate, I just want to let you know there's something going on here." Why
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was that important to you? because I care about him and he's given me some big opportunities, you know, he
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gave me an opportunity, the first coach together, you know, in representative level, we went to Brazil together um
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pretty much volunteering to go and help out those guys. I I had a long relationship with him that I valued and
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it was, you know, it was obviously it was a there was a professional component and the personal
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one and the personal one's very important to me. And you you ended up taking the job. So clearly you had um
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Razer's blessing. Yeah. Yeah. Was he supportive, encouraging? Was he Yeah. I
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I chose and I've said this many time I was given an opportunity by the All Blacks, take the personalities out of
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it. I was given an opportunity to coach the All Blacks and that's what I chose
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to coach the All Blacks. Um, yeah, that that must have been surreal. Like, were you were you you
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obviously expecting this at some point in your career, but maybe not in 2022? Oh, I don't think you can ever expect
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that you'll coach the All Blacks. It's too, you know, it's more than just a
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rugby team. It's a special environment to be a part of, and only a select few
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get to represent their country. So I I didn't have didn't expect that it could
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be me um or should be me or hope um yeah dream definitely it was something that I
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targeted Dom. It was something that I you know always wanted to be was coach the All Blacks and um you know to be
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given that opportunity was it was pretty amazing you know but I quickly learned that you can't be a fan of the All
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Blacks when you're coaching them. you got to be going after the boys every week and you know she's pretty full
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throttle you know it's um she's in an environment where things just move so
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quick so I couldn't be sitting around getting selfies and wanting flag signed
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how can you how can you not like are you familiar with the term imposter syndrome
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um explain it to me a little bit it's kind of like um where you're in an
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environment you're like oh my god like I'm going to be caught out like I'm I'm
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out of my depth here I'm out of my league you know even though you deserve to be in that environment obviously, but
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I I'm just wondering like how Yeah. How was it for you being in that environment
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with someone like say Sam Sam Whitlock who suddenly you're coaching and he's
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been in that team longer than what you've been coaching just about? Yeah. Look, it was um look, I I coach um I
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wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm honest. Um I can be pretty direct when I need to
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be, but I care. And I I knew that um there was some things that needed to be sorted in there and I didn't have a lot
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of time for conversations around what do you think. I just said here's here's
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what I've seen. Here's how I believe we can be better as a group and whether or
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not you've played one test or 140. I'll treat you all the same. And that was,
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you know, we had a couple of convos. I needed I I mean I already coached Sam, but I needed to I needed to get to know
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Sammy Kane and Brady Retellic and Dane Coohl's and all those you know great All
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Blacks that they are. So it was important for me to to get alongside them really quick and say look I'm going
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to you're going to have to trust me here but this is where I believe we need to
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make the shifts and really really quickly because effectively I had I mean you talk about asked me before how long
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do you get on the grass? Well, I had one training session, then we went to South
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Africa. But what that taught me is I went I went straight back to my days of coaching the West Coast where you didn't
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have time to plan and you might have had um a short session planned effectively,
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but six dairy farmers couldn't make the training cuz they're still milk and
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cows. So, you had to adjust your session. So, you know, cutting my teeth at those levels really helped me in that
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moment. And it still does. So, um, so you call Razer, then you call your wife, how Kath. Yeah. Who you've
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been with, by the way, your 24th wedding anniversary is coming up, eh? 25th. 25th. Yeah. 25th. Yeah. We'll get into
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the, um, dynamics of that relationship later on because um, as as someone that's um, had a failed marriage, like I
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I know you don't get to 25 years without, you know, some good communication and some, you know, good
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stuff going on. Yeah. So, we'll get into that. But you call her, what's she like?
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Is she emotional about it? Um she was there was a big pause and there was a lot of pride and um it was do you know
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what it was it was it was actually awkward when I first started to you know ring um my wife and next person that
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rang was dad um and the kids and all that sort of thing but because I wasn't
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be able to able to share it because I wasn't with them I was in Fiji and then
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I was coming to Oakuckland so I had to cut ties with Fiji who were outstanding um Vern C who was coaching at the time
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was was very very good to me and um something I'll never forget and a little
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bit of advice and stuff that he gave me and heading into the job but I didn't
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actually get that chance to go let's celebrate so I came back on the Sunday my son was playing in the club
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final for Sydnham they won it um we went into the rugby club and um it was the first time they'd won it in a long time
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and I was just really mindful of the club captain even though there was a little bit of media around and I just
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got the all black job. It was all about the club winning a final. It wasn't about about me effectively. Um but he,
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you know, there was something mentioned across the microphone and a few bits and
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pieces and it probably wasn't until after the rugby championship I actually got the family together and um
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we had a bit of a celebration around home and it was nice to see um how proud they were, you know, like
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um and and and things just happen so fast in the All Blacks. And probably the proudest I' I've seen dad was when he
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went to South Africa this year. It was special. Yeah. Was it? Yeah. Yeah, it was unbelievable. I we we we're
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constantly on the go with the All Blacks, you know. I think it was 140 odd nights. We're away home from home last
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year, all the back end. And I'm not complaining by that, by the way. But you
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don't get sometimes that time to just breathe and relax. And when I saw him and raise his dad, they went together
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actually to South Africa. That's awesome. And it was pretty special. And it's like he rang me up actually. He
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says, "Oh, I I'm think I'm going to go to South Africa with Morris Robertson."
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And I went, "Mate, you struggle to get a car park in town to catch up for a
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coffee." I'm like, "How's this going to work?" "No, no, we'll be right. We'll be
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right." I said, "Mate, you're flying." Okay, so it's all good. But um but yeah,
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they uh and it was an experience for them both too, you know, like um they thought they'd actually flown the whole
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way at night time cuz they didn't realize, you know, those buttons in the that the windows go dark. They had it on
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dark the whole time. They had it on dark the whole time. We get there, Ray and I,
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and we're having a having a cough, having a you know, catch up with them and they're both buggered. You know,
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it's a long way for them. You know, it's something I was always mindful of. Well,
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you got to make sure you're traveling good and um but yeah, to see um to see
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dad when we were walking on the bus at Ellis Park was unbelievable. It was it meant a lot to both of us. It was it was
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a special moment. Well, just cuz you could see he was like bursting in bursting with pride. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. And he's and just being in South Africa, as I said before, he's he's a
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builder from Christ Church that had his own business and it's probably something
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he never thought he'd be either. Um, and I, you know, I I said before, Dom, like as a coach, you can't be a fan
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of the All Blacks, but you know, your as your father, he he can definitely be a fan of He is he's he's right on there.
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You know, after tests, he's wanting to get photos with the boys and he's right
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amongst it. But that's cool. It's all part of that's um that's such a cool
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story about him and him and Raz's dad traveling together. That is uh that's
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the that's the cutest thing ever. Oh, yeah. It's adorable. Do they know each
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other? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they they used to obviously sit at all the games and go to Captain's Run during
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Canterbury and the Crusaders and just slowly got each other to know each other. But um yeah, for them to to come
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over to South Africa and see them both there was was pretty awesome, you know, although we couldn't get a couple of
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wins for them that just seeing them and how much they loved it was yeah was so cool. Yeah. I I believe your dad was um
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quite instrumental early on in you know convincing you to quit your day job and go and go and you know balls deep with
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the coaching thing. Is that right? What's the story that where was that? Yeah. So I I guess when I was when I was
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working um with you know doing a bit of mining um myself and another guy Mark Goldie
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who we worked together for a long long time where we um you know we we did a lot of work
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together for a number of years really. It would have been probably 10. I'm not
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actually sure. But we went through a lot with Pike River Explosion. We were selling gear to them and all that sort
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of thing. There was there was a little bit of stuff happening. But we we got after it in those mining days and we had
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a lot of fun. But I I was doing a lot of work for um volunteer work for clubs going around coaching at night and did a
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little bit with uh work with the Black Ferns. did a little bit of work with the under 20s and just when I could getting
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time off work and you know I get to a training sometimes and take the shirt off and shirt and tie off from the sales job
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and then chuck on a tracksuit and run the session get in the car and go what what actually happened there don't even
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know I didn't even really have time to plan for it but got on with it and then
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um got sort of a few more opportunities and and then I did the scrum um for Razer for Canterbury
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and was doing oh it was like 8 hours a week was in the contract but it was probably 15 20 so it was like wow I was
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really on the edge and wanting more time off work and and then he got the head coach role for Canterbury and um he said
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mate I want you to be my forwards coach and I was like wow how good but he said mate it's it's only a
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fourmonth contract are are you going to be able to do it and I said well I'm
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going to have to get time off work and um So I asked for leave without pay for four months and the boss said he said
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mate I'm sorry I just can't do it. We can't do that. And I said look I
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understand it's all good. So, so then I had to make a big decision, you know, a
00:20:04
massive decision. And, um, I had a good job, um, company, vehicle, and phone and
00:20:10
everything I needed and was, you know, we're chipping away quite nicely as a
00:20:14
family. And, um, I sat down with dad and I said, you know, what are you going to
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I said, "This is my situation. You know, what am I going to do?" He said, "Mate,
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you got to back yourself. Make the call." Didn't even hesitate. He said,
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"If it doesn't work out, you'll get something else. You're still young
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enough. go after it or someone else will get it. So I did and resigned and um from my job and had for a four-month
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contract had so had no work and after that and um Keith was unreal you know we were we just bought our second house
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really and um it was it was a tough time for us um and I know it's tough time for
00:20:49
a lot of families but we we went through the ringer you know and I was like man I've been so selfish here I've just
00:20:54
chosen you I've put myself first before my family had all these stuff going through my head and like have I done the
00:21:01
right thing I done the right thing. I've only got now I've only got two weeks
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left. The contract's up and just slowly started getting in a little bit of work
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um through New Zealand Rugby through a little bit of resource coaching just helping out there and a little bit
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through my club ended up doing the RDO's job. So got a little bit of work there
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and then one thing sort of filtered along and had enough to get by but she wasn't nice during the time. It
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was actually really tough. It was awful. Really super stressful. Yeah, it was stressful. It was um just not knowing
00:21:34
what we could do and if we could go away. And at one stage, you know, we went away with a holiday
00:21:40
um with the kids and um a payment hadn't come through and I had to ask a mate if
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he could I said, "Mate, we're out for dinner. My card's just gone. I haven't
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my pay hasn't come through and it was awful." And um it was just a a really [ __ ] time
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to be honest. And I I look back at that and and still think at the moment, man. But the kids, they never missed out. We
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we just got it done. And and and you know, he was he was only too happy to do that. Um good mate, Chopper, and um and
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and he said, "Mate, you back yourself and I love you for it. It's going to
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work itself out, you know." So had a few people around that that were giving me
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confidence. And then we did the New Zealand under 20 job um with Ray and he was um applying at the same time for the
00:22:27
Crusaders head coach job, you know, and when we were over there, he had done his
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interview online and and then we went out for a coffee and he said, "Mate, I
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just set the call, got the job." And I said, "Oh, mate, awesome. Just so proud
00:22:39
of you. You know, well done. You really deserve it." And um again, it was his
00:22:44
moment, so it wasn't up for me to go, you know, what's next for me. There was
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no way. I just stood away from that. And it was probably about 3 days after the tournament, he said, "Look, I'm I'm
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going to um with my coaching team, I'm I'm going to this is who I want for my
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back's coach and bits and pieces and my manager, I'm pretty sorted." He said,
00:23:01
"But for the forwards coach, I'm going to take it to the market cuz I want to
00:23:05
get the best person. Um but I want you to apply, mate." And I said, "Yep, cool.
00:23:09
Got it." And it was probably the best thing that could have happened to me was
00:23:13
actually applying for it. not just getting it cuz I was with him, you know, it actually made me think a little bit
00:23:19
more about myself. How am I going to present to the board and and you know, Angus Gardner, who's the rugby manager
00:23:25
down there, how was I going to package something up and present something? So, they thought I'd be good enough. So, and
00:23:31
got the job. Um, and that was another part of the the story of me, I guess, with the coaching side of it. That's a
00:23:39
hell of a story. So, how old when when the um when you had that short-term contract and you went in boots and all?
00:23:46
Um how old were the kids? I'm terrible with years and age. Um still at primary school, right? Okay.
00:23:52
Yeah. Y yeah. No, it was um she was a she was a tough one. Yeah. Were you were you under pressure from Kath or was she
00:24:01
No. No. No. No. She's unbelievable. She's champion, you know, like she's out
00:24:06
of every, you know, I don't like to single out players or, you know, coaches or people in your life, but I I
00:24:15
I can single out Kath. She's been unreal, mate. She's been amazing and special.
00:24:23
And she she she's seen me at my best and she's seen me at my worst. And um she's the one that can give the old
00:24:32
shoulder tap and go, "Listen here, champ. You could be getting a bit ahead of yourself here." Like, is that right?
00:24:38
Under under what circumstances does she uh Oh, there's been a few. You know,
00:24:42
there's there there's been a few. And um yeah, she's experienced the highs and
00:24:47
lows of test rugby know what they are. You know, going to a World Cup final and then losing one. And she's seen she's
00:24:54
seen it all. and um she's she's always just been really supportive and um it
00:25:00
means the world to me. I wouldn't be able to do it without her. I wouldn't
00:25:03
there's no way I would. And we're lucky now our kids are at a good age where she
00:25:08
can come away and all the kids can come, you know, they're doing their own thing.
00:25:11
Ollie's 22 and uh 21 and Ollie's uh No, he is 22. God, I got that wrong. And uh
00:25:19
Emma's 19, you know, so um so they can they've got to experience it a little bit as well. So yeah, you you
00:25:26
seem to have a good relationship with them. Um I follow you on social media and um actually to be fair, there's not
00:25:31
a lot of information about um Jace Ryan online. Like is this your first podcast?
00:25:39
Um it must be cuz I can't remember any others. Yeah, I couldn't find anything
00:25:43
online online you've done. There's a couple. I did an all blacks one. I did
00:25:46
an all blacks one. Um yeah, I did an all blacks one when I first got the job. This is my first um Well, this looks
00:25:53
quite professional what you got set up here, Dom. I'm actually quite proud of
00:25:55
you. Don't let it Oh, thanks very much. Point of difference. Yeah. I just DM'd
00:26:00
you and you you got back to me straight away saying, "Oh, yeah. Let's let's do
00:26:02
something in the new year." Which, um I was I was surprised. Pleasantly surprised. Yeah. Well, look, I followed
00:26:07
a little bit of your story behind the scenes, too. Just bits and pieces. And um I think it's great what you're doing.
00:26:12
So, I've had a lot of requests, but it's like the question I asked you when you when you came in was when I
00:26:20
said, you know, what's your point of difference on your podcast? Well, and you said around you've talked to, you
00:26:25
know, a few people about some different stuff in a range. So, that was enough for me. And I think you can just do a
00:26:32
couple. I don't think you need to be like the podcast guide for not for me, you know what I mean? No, I I won't go
00:26:38
on another one this year probably or but there just you pick a couple of things and it worked out well. Well, I
00:26:43
appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, you asked me what the point of difference was and I I Yeah, I don't know. I didn't
00:26:48
really have a really good answer, but I think having not thought about it before, the point of difference is
00:26:52
probably I try and cover um like the crunchy stuff of someone's life. Like life's not all greatest hits, is it? No,
00:26:58
it's not. You know, um so you try and cover the good and the bad because everyone's got everyone's got some bad
00:27:02
[ __ ] going on. Yeah. Um, and it's just a a fact of life and it makes everyone
00:27:06
that's listening feel more normal about it, I think. So, yeah. So, you get the
00:27:10
job in 2022. Oh, you hit um Dan Carter up for advice as well. Yeah, DC is a good good mate. Is he? Through the
00:27:18
crusade. Were you coaching when he was a crusader or did he retired by then? No,
00:27:21
not at all. We just How are you, mate? We got to know each other um just through Christ Church, I guess. And um
00:27:26
he's someone that I got so much respect for. we we can we can have a professional conversation and a personal
00:27:33
one and you know we can have a lot of fun and he can square me up when when need be. But you know I've I've shared
00:27:40
some um some goals and bits and pieces that I've got through my coaching career
00:27:45
with um a couple of people. He's one of them of where I want to be. And he he's
00:27:51
challenged me and said I'm not sure that's going to be good enough. And you
00:27:55
know you're just at the start line and have you thought about this? It's not
00:27:58
just about, you know, winning trophies. It's actually about being the best you can be
00:28:05
and and in in your position and be world leading at it. So, I value catching up with Desi when I can. And um he gives me
00:28:13
good balance and you know, he's busy and he's raising his own little family now
00:28:17
at the moment. So, his sort of roles changed with what he's doing and he's
00:28:21
transitioned out of playing. But, uh, the one of the many things I love about him is he's just he's always been who he
00:28:29
is, you know. He's Dan Carter and he's he's really well balanced. He's a you
00:28:33
know, he's from a good country town. He's got a good family and um he's
00:28:37
performed at the highest level ever. So, I value that. You got to have people like that that you can tap into, you
00:28:43
know. Yeah. And what about um Mccau? Cuz I saw on your Instagram you he's like a
00:28:47
golf buddy of yours. Yeah, we started. Oh well, I haven't got many golf buddies
00:28:51
cuz tell you what, my timing is horrendous at times. But um does he go right? Please tell me he's [ __ ] at golf.
00:28:57
No, no, Rick goes good. Does he? Yeah, he goes good. Yeah. No, he's he's good.
00:29:00
We just played in the Odmata Classic actually um which was quite cool. We got a place down there and um No, just sort
00:29:08
of got to know Richie um probably more so when being in the All Blacks. So um and he's been good too. I've had some
00:29:16
good coffees with him. And you got to have those people away that you can just sort of bounce a couple of
00:29:22
ideas with and they might either challenge you on it or they might um give you confirmation that actually no
00:29:30
that that's really good. You're going well there. So um and they got a massive
00:29:34
legacy with the All Blacks. So it's important you talk to those guys. I I believe Yeah. Yeah, Sean Fitzpatrick
00:29:39
will be another one and JK. I enjoy connecting with them and both different and just offer different perspectives on
00:29:45
things. So, it's cool. Well, they are some big names. Yeah. Yeah. Like iconic All Blacks, four of
00:29:52
them. Yeah. Yeah, they are. And they, you know, they're a massive part of what
00:29:57
the legacy of the All Blacks is. And um you know, the All Blacks is more than just a rugby team. And those guys have
00:30:03
made that what it is. So, so when you first get that job in 2022 and you joined the All Black Squad, like are you
00:30:09
um are you [ __ ] bricks in that first week? Do you know what I was Are you nervous or I I wasn't I wasn't at all. I
00:30:16
was like cuz I knew what I needed to do. So, it wasn't like I was going in there
00:30:22
trying to make [ __ ] up. I was I actually had a real clear plan of what it was and
00:30:26
a couple of key areas and probably more so just given the boys a bit of confidence because you know they'd just
00:30:33
been beaten by Ireland in a series at home. It wasn't like you were going in
00:30:37
there and there was lots of high fives going on so just being really upfront and honest with them and
00:30:44
um getting on with it really. And then uh so 2023 rolls around so this is your first full year in the in the
00:30:51
all black environment. That's the the World Cup year. Um yeah, how was how was that for you?
00:30:58
Cuz that I don't know exactly when it was during the year, but that's when
00:31:01
there was this like public sort of um push for Razer to become things got real messy for a while there. E so Ian Foster
00:31:08
was the coach and there was this sort of public push for Razer to become the coach. And what was it like being in the
00:31:14
environment when you're mates with Razer and you're working with Fozy and this
00:31:19
whole thing's going on? Yeah. Oh, look that that was that had sort of passed by
00:31:23
really. That was that was the end of the year before. Okay. Um the World Cup year
00:31:27
was clean when you were at but that was a little bit messy at times. But like I said before, you've always got to have
00:31:32
those two different types of conversations, the professional one and the personal one. So we're pretty good
00:31:38
at that. And the the World Cup. Yeah. What's it like? Um so what happened you
00:31:43
you got to the finals and you got beaten in the final, right? Yep. Yeah. What's
00:31:47
that like? That's a real clear question. Holy heck. What's that like? Um, [ __ ]
00:31:56
Yeah. Awful. But if but if you if you if you lose in the final and you can look yourself in the mirror and you know
00:32:02
you've done everything and you played a good game and you know can you be sort
00:32:06
of at peace with it or never really? Oh, it's it's similar. There's still there's
00:32:12
still that burnt memory there and it should be you know like you know the the expectation is the All Blacks should win
00:32:20
every test and you know reality is that's not going to happen but it's how
00:32:23
we respond to those but honestly thought we were in a great spot um as a whole management group, coaching group and
00:32:30
playing group to win that game and right up until even probably the last minute I
00:32:35
still thought we were going to win it. I really did. So, I think the boys um gave
00:32:40
it all gave it their all and you're always going to get a few calls and bits
00:32:43
and pieces that go against you. That's footy and um but yeah, no, it was pretty
00:32:49
it was pretty awful in the sheds, you know, like seeing guys pull the jersey off for the last time that have given so
00:32:55
much. That was that's a memory that will stick to me with me for a long time, you know.
00:33:01
Who was that who was finishing at the end of 23? Well, there was a few. It was um um Dane Coohl's um Sammy
00:33:09
Whitlock you know that was Brody Retellic that was in my my area the forwards so that you sort of you stay a
00:33:17
little bit more closer to them in a way you know Aaron Smith been given great service and so it was yeah it was tough
00:33:24
you know it was awful seeing them you know know that the that's the last time
00:33:29
they'll wear the jersey and the it's been a big part of their life and they're known as great Kiwis you M so it
00:33:35
was it was pretty rough but you know we we had a good couple of days together and 660 came in to the hotel and played
00:33:44
a few tunes and we're just sort of sitting around and chilling. It was also a a coaching group and you know some of
00:33:50
the coaches in the management group sort of didn't know where they were at. So it
00:33:53
was a it was a bit of a rough time but um it's professionalism isn't it? It's
00:34:00
um you can't sugarcoat everything and everything's just got to get on with it,
00:34:04
you know, like decisions were made and you just got to move forward. And it's sport, isn't it? It is sport.
00:34:11
You can't you can't always win. Um you can't even though there is an
00:34:15
expectation that the All Blacks always must win. Yeah. Yeah, there is. It's a
00:34:19
lot of pressure. Yeah, it it is. You know, it's sometimes like we either lose
00:34:24
or don't win good enough, right? you know it's um but you know when when people have and we're a small
00:34:32
country when they haven't got an opinion that that will be the worry you know
00:34:36
it's like oh we don't actually care that that's so but yeah it's keeps you keeps
00:34:42
you driven that's for sure so you your role as um forwards coach after a game
00:34:47
like um yeah losing a world cup final uh what does your role become do you become
00:34:51
sort of like a counselor or you know to the the players are you consoling them like What's your sort of role at that
00:34:58
point? Yeah, good, great question. I I whether we win or lose, I'll go and sit alongside the boys. You might just
00:35:06
pick a few that might be feeling a bit and just sit in the shed and just um or you know, make sure that they're
00:35:13
still proud of their performance and who they are. And some of them just don't
00:35:18
need any opinion. Whereas, oh, we you might go up and go, oh, what if we had have done that, we would have it's too
00:35:25
late now. hypotheticals. Hypothetical, it's no good. So, just get alongside them and and just sit beside them and
00:35:32
and and just see what happens or a combo or and and give them a little bit of confidence if you need to. But, you
00:35:37
know, they go they build their week and they put everything into winning a test match over 80 minutes. It's built up
00:35:47
over eight days basically from when you know you start building your other week.
00:35:51
So there's a lot goes into it and that that moment in the shed whether or not
00:35:55
you win or lose is actually a really special time because it's just us. There's no media in there. There's no um
00:36:03
sponsors or anything. you know, they'll come in and but it's just there's that
00:36:07
one moment where it's just the team and call it the all black circle and it's a
00:36:11
good chance just to say a couple of things and we might go around the around the room and and mention a couple of
00:36:16
things and we always look forward to um what's ahead you know I remember Bod
00:36:24
said you know after one of the test matches um I think it was the second test after England actually and in Eden
00:36:30
Park he said that this is a special circle that we should never take for granted. So, and that was like, oh, that
00:36:36
was that was cool to hear cuz it is. And he's, you know, he's he's a great leader
00:36:40
and a great man and All Black's been a big part of his life, too, you know, and hearing things like that is just
00:36:48
little reminders. How good. Yeah. You seem to um Yeah, you you have a lot of gratit lot of awareness about
00:36:58
um the privilege. Yeah. Yeah. That's something I get from your Instagram. Like there's a lot of posts where you
00:37:02
you acknowledge just um how lucky you are to be in this position and yeah it is a privilege and and um you know
00:37:08
there's a lot of pressure with that as well but you know pressure is a privilege as well and pressure just
00:37:13
means someone's relying on you doesn't it that's the way I look at it but you
00:37:17
got to you know you got to be pretty level with the All Blacks um I believe and keep it pretty centered
00:37:26
um and bring the fans with you and the people and through the good times and and the tough times.
00:37:33
And yeah, it's it's a it's a job that I'll never um take for granted or never not prepare
00:37:40
for. It's a job that I love and it's a job that takes a lot out of out of you
00:37:46
as well. And you know, talk about the World Cup before there Dom like I couldn't have given much more if if
00:37:51
anything, you know, physically, mentally and it took me a long time to come probably back to zero and restart. Like
00:38:00
I remember Christmas that year. It was just I probably might as well not have even been at the dinner.
00:38:06
Wow. Yeah. It was awful really. And and and and it was, you know, a bit of a reset. And
00:38:11
um yeah, you just Yeah. But but look, no one's died, have they? You know, it is sport like
00:38:20
you said before. You know, you can get on. There's people in worse situations,
00:38:24
but you know, when you when you build up for a pinnacle event, it's a little bit
00:38:28
different because you got the best of the best at their best in the tournament. Yeah, that's why I asked that question
00:38:35
before like what's it like when when you lose the World Cup final because it's
00:38:38
the tournament was good, right? Like you had that game against Ireland where everyone was calling that like the final
00:38:43
even though it was the semi-final or quarterfinal. Quarter. Yeah. So, it was a hell of a game. So when you do
00:38:48
everything right and then you just trip up at the last hurdle, I wonder if you can sort of be more at peace with the
00:38:52
result. Suppose that's what I was getting at. Yeah. Oh, on that. Um, so was it the final where Sam got red cut?
00:39:00
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk us through that. What's that like? Like you that's
00:39:06
it was heartbreaking. Well, that your first person you get round is Sam. Mhm. You know, like and then I
00:39:12
Yeah. I I got so I've said this many times. I have so much respect for Sam Kane. I always have right from when he,
00:39:19
you know, played super rugby and um broke his neck playing a test match and he's um you got to know his mom and
00:39:28
dad really well and you know he he was feeling it after that game and I can't I
00:39:33
I cannot imagine what he was going through. Yeah, he was and and but he but he's such a he's just such a good man.
00:39:39
He's got a great family behind him. He's got a good group of mates so he'll get
00:39:43
through it you know and he did and came back last year and you know people probably thought he wasn't going to be
00:39:49
picked or get a crack and he effectively became the inform seven. We couldn't not
00:39:54
pick him and but his value he added off the field and the leadership and you know it really helped the leadership
00:39:59
group and that sort of thing was was really important and um it says a lot about his character. You know you had
00:40:06
that bit of resilience in your life. You know, it's not always roses and everything's going good. As you said,
00:40:12
you know, what was the name you called the record uh of life just before? Oh, the greatest hits. The greatest hits.
00:40:18
It's not the greatest hits. There's a couple of Every great story has some
00:40:21
adversity. A couple of bad songs in there, too, along the way, isn't there? A couple of beats, but you get through
00:40:25
it. Yeah. But what can what can you say to him at that point to make it to make anything better? I love you.
00:40:33
Yeah, it's powerful. M yeah I often do it. Yeah. With the boys. When you when you were playing rugby for
00:40:42
Buller in West Coast like 25 years ago, like no one would have said the L word, right? No.
00:40:49
Maybe loser. Yeah. No, but no, no one uh Yeah. No one no coaches telling their players they
00:40:56
love them. No. Um I I heard um Yeah, I think it was Ian Foster. I think I heard him say that about Mark Deier. There was
00:41:02
like an incident where he got stood down for a game and in the the press conference he said something like oh you
00:41:07
we love Mark but blah blah blah and that was what stood out to me. It was like um
00:41:12
I don't know just that sort of openness or vulnerability with um the All Blacks
00:41:15
now. Yeah, there is. And it's it's a different these these young men have
00:41:20
come through a distant different system of um the outside world, social media, how they were how they were taught at
00:41:29
school. It's it's a different group of people coming through, you know, the
00:41:33
phones and the the popups and the alerts and the Snapchat, the Instagram, the Facebook. So, everything's everything's
00:41:41
changed compared to what it was a few years ago, like probably even 10 years ago. So, so how you coach them and how
00:41:49
you get to understand them that that's actually a part of their makeup and how
00:41:53
you do reviews and previews. It's almost like a little short sharp Instagram
00:41:57
reel. Just bang bang bang. Let's get some punchy moments here that can that they can relate to cuz they've been you
00:42:05
know it's not all powerpoints and words is it? You switch off a bit. Yeah. What what do you do you say
00:42:12
anything to them about social media and you reading the comments or anything like that or is it just up to the
00:42:18
individual? Well, there's there's there's conversations go on with you
00:42:22
know through the the wider management group. We look after, you know, we look after the boys and make sure they do,
00:42:27
you know, like they have a plan around it. You know, the the professional sport environment is is different to like a
00:42:36
dayto-day at work. You know, if you have a bad day at work on a Monday, the the boss might give you a bit of a a rack up
00:42:43
and a good chat to whereas if you have a bad day at work at the All Blacks, the whole country gives you a rack up. But
00:42:50
but but that's that's what we're in. I'm not saying that that's, you know, wrong.
00:42:55
It's that's where we live. You know, it's everyone's got an opinion and
00:43:00
people, you know, often I feel it. They they look at you differently after a win
00:43:04
and loss when you're walking down the street. Maybe that's me, but it's true. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's an
00:43:12
interesting time in the way because like 15 years ago, I suppose um the the trolls um were just maybe like the
00:43:17
sports journalists from the Herald or from stuff, but now it's like everyone's
00:43:21
a potential troll. It's it's uh it's a lot it's a lot to cope with as a a young
00:43:26
player, I guess. Yeah, it is. And and and it's a lot to cope for as coach, too. you know, we've got families and
00:43:32
you get the odd spray that you might I'm I can let it go, you know, like it is, but it's a bit of a nick in
00:43:40
the family more than anything. And when that starts affecting them and you know,
00:43:44
the daughter, you know, M's, oh, did you read that, Dad? That that upset me. It's
00:43:49
like, well, okay, let's have a chat about that. Um, I'm okay, but are you?
00:43:55
No, I'm not. Okay. Oh, she's she's heard it. something she's read about. Yeah, you
00:44:01
just hear bits and pieces, but right, we're we're pretty open plan in our
00:44:04
family. Like, wow, we're really open plan actually. There's a lot of combos
00:44:08
happen. Really? What do you mean open plan? Well, we just um we talk about everything.
00:44:15
Like everything. You seem to have a really good relationship with your kids. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yep.
00:44:21
And they're both different. Um um you know, my son Ollie, he's I'm so
00:44:27
proud of what he's doing at the moment. he's he's going to be a qualified
00:44:29
builder next month and and same with them. She's done a couple of years in retail now and she's she's working and
00:44:36
finding her way and just they're just trying to work life out as you do and and you know sometimes you just got to
00:44:42
take a breather once they finish school and go well you don't have to do this
00:44:45
this this and this just just go and enjoy it and you'll work it out. Yeah. Yeah. on your Instagram. Um yeah, you've
00:44:53
been on a summer holiday and you've been out on the boat with them wakeboarding
00:44:55
and stuff and um I think that says a lot that they're at that age in life where
00:44:59
they can decide to spend holidays with their parents or not and they're choosing to spend it with you. So I
00:45:04
think that's um it's humbling. Yeah, they come and go. Like sometimes four
00:45:08
nights is a bit much for them or for you guys? Oh, probably for them. But no, they they've got a good group of mates.
00:45:15
They've all got awesome friends and they all come around and bring them with them
00:45:18
and um you know it's it's a big part of it. Their friends have helped shape them
00:45:23
who they are. So you got to bring them along for the ride. Eh oh that's cool.
00:45:26
I'm keen to get more into that. There's just a couple more rugby questions and
00:45:29
then we'll finish off that chapter and then get into the get into the family
00:45:32
stuff if that's okay with you. Yeah, no worries. Yeah. So the the 2024 season,
00:45:36
so um Razer comes in and it's like the whole the whole dream team together. How
00:45:41
was how was 2023 different to 2024? Um well look there was a lot of change I guess of of how the um the show was
00:45:49
going to roll but there was a lot of stuff that was important around legacy that still needed to be there. So
00:45:56
getting the balance right and understanding different personalities again and working with different people
00:46:01
and the boys them getting to know different people in the management group and all that sort of took a bit of time
00:46:07
but I think we transitioned through that and you know we we give last year you know a pass mark I think we played some
00:46:14
big test we played all the biggest ones you could play so it was good for us I reckon that's the way I look at it was
00:46:19
unreal and we played all the top four nations and you know two tests away in South Africa well you ain't getting
00:46:24
better than that. So, it was good for us and we'll see the rewards of it. I'm
00:46:29
sure we all will be better of it as a group. So, it was just a matter of transitioning into understanding the the
00:46:35
different dynamics really of how everything works. And you yourself and Razer, you've um you know, you know each
00:46:40
other's um styles uh intimately. You've worked together for years. It's been
00:46:44
very very successful. Um what was it like for you seeing him in that environment with so much more pressure
00:46:50
on him? because I feel like um Crusaders normally won but when when they lost it
00:46:54
was like the rest of the country was kind of happy about it. Suddenly you're
00:46:57
in a situation where I don't know your losses are magnified. Yeah, they are magnified. Not a lot changes. I'm really
00:47:04
clear on my role as an assistant coach and you know I got to be eyes and ears for the for the boss no matter who that
00:47:11
is. You know, you got to look after them and number one make sure I'm owning my
00:47:15
own area of the fords but number two just just keeping an eye of things around the peripheral that they might
00:47:22
miss and just mention a couple of things. You know, it's a big beast the All Blacks and you know he'll be better
00:47:27
for the job um this year. We all will be um as a group the whole the whole team players management everyone um we'll be
00:47:36
better for it but you know probably just feeling out the you know the the different media expectations
00:47:44
you know super rugby you might have you know your your one reporter with a notebook
00:47:49
um all black training you got 30 cameras. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's different. I watched um everything I could online
00:47:57
um about you on YouTube and uh there was a couple of press conferences there. You're searching me hard.
00:48:02
E Well, good homework, Jay. I figure if someone's going to going to um you know,
00:48:07
give me some of their valuable time um the least I can do is make sure I'm thoroughly researched for it. Yeah. But
00:48:12
the some of these press conferences I saw where there's like maybe 20 or 30 microphones there, like the first um
00:48:18
couple of All Black press conferences, like were you nervous? Is that intimidating? you scared you're going to
00:48:22
say the wrong thing or No, I'm pretty clear on who I am as a person, you know.
00:48:27
I I'm not trying to really be anyone else. So, I was just did it the same way I did
00:48:33
my first coaching session. I was just pretty honest and tried not to over complicate it, you know. It was yeah it
00:48:39
was there was a decent media scrum there and a spread and it was a you know an interesting time that was going on in
00:48:47
the background but um I just had to deal with what was in front of me then and you know pretty proud that we we made
00:48:55
some shifts in that area just to do that you know but um yeah it's all it's all
00:49:00
part of it. Okay. Who are the best players you've coached? Oh, there can be more than one and it can be
00:49:07
for different reasons. Oh. Oh, that's a tough one. That's that's a tough one to identify cuz
00:49:16
they're all different, you know, like I they've all they've all taught me
00:49:20
something. Every player you coach um I learn from. Um there's probably yeah I I can't answer the best
00:49:31
player I've coached but there's been some some players that have given me
00:49:36
some direction in my coaching that have helped me and one would be Sam Whitlock when we were coaching super rugby uh I
00:49:44
think it was 2018 2019 I'm pretty sure he'd be happy for me to share this but
00:49:49
he said to me we were playing the warars and he said one morning should we catch
00:49:52
up for a coffee I was like oh yeah sweet where are we going to do And he he just he uh he basically just
00:49:58
squared me up and and just said a couple of things to me that I just needed to probably reset myself of how I was and
00:50:07
my my uh body language and how I was coaching and just a little bit of that off-field balance between, you know,
00:50:14
player and coaches and and where you can't cross the line, you know, being out late or whatever that was.
00:50:21
just it was just a I probably muddled that what he what he said but he he just he just made me think about so he didn't
00:50:28
say you should or you need he said he said it'd be good if you could just consider a couple of things here that
00:50:35
could make you better because if you want to go to where you want to go you probably just need to make a couple
00:50:40
adjustments and it was good feedback um tech technically technically and a little bit of just a little bit of
00:50:47
personal stuff that he he just really um and I thanked for it so many times. He he
00:50:54
it it helped me. It was definitely It definitely came at a very good time. Um you can't be a lad and I probably was a
00:51:02
little bit um in the younger days but you know I was I was going to ask you about that. How do you because obviously
00:51:09
you want to be friendly with the players but I suppose you can't be their friend.
00:51:12
Okay. Personal and professional, you know, like um I was privileged enough to attend Ethan the Groot's wedding, you
00:51:20
know, went went down to his wedding. It was pretty cool. Um really enjoyed it and we've had some good professional
00:51:26
conversations and really direct. I mean, I get to be a part of decisions for um their career, you know, yes or no
00:51:36
with contracting with all the players and that that's a privileged position as
00:51:40
well. And it's also even more so where you got to be honest and that's working
00:51:44
with the boss and making sure Ray and I are aligned in those decisions and all that sort of thing. So you got to know
00:51:51
and they got to know that when it's professional time as opposed to putting the hand on the shoulder and making sure
00:51:58
you care for them. That's what I'll always do. You know, boys often come in
00:52:02
for a green tea in my room now and again they'll they'll know the the jug's
00:52:06
always on. Marty and him and I had a good catch up in South Africa and just not talking footy just you know come and
00:52:14
have a good chat about things and I've been really privileged that some of the
00:52:18
boys have shared some really good stuff with me and I feel really privileged that they have and and be open to do
00:52:24
that but they know it won't go any further you know so and that's a big part of them being successful on a
00:52:30
Saturday is making sure that they feel valued share big stuff with you as an as and yeah, maybe stuff that's going on at
00:52:38
home or just personal stuff. Yeah, potentially. And you know, we just got to make sure there's a good support
00:52:42
around them. You know, it's a long time away. And how how do they how can they have the
00:52:48
confidence that you're not going to go and you know, pass that information on
00:52:51
to the boss razor? Oh, I think it's just trust, you know, like it's Yeah, I'm sure that all the coaches have
00:52:59
different conversations with players in a in a personal level and, you know, we if there's something that probably needs
00:53:06
to be addressed that they might need some more support in that area, we got to make sure we do it. And where does um
00:53:11
where does your communication style like come from? Is it just something you've
00:53:14
worked on over the years? Yeah, probably just um I don't know. I think I think
00:53:20
dad is pretty upfront with how he, you know, communicates with people and he's
00:53:25
pretty honest and um he's humble and I've I've seen him as as I've grown up working with people and
00:53:35
his manner and that sort of things is probably big part I'd say as well as sales jobs. When I was doing a sales
00:53:43
job, you got to read cues, you know, like you go and introduce yourself to someone for the first time and you just
00:53:49
have a good yarn and soon as you walk out, you know that card's gone straight
00:53:52
in the bin. I'm not buying anything out of you. Yeah. But um you must have to have a lot
00:53:58
of a lot of tough conversations. And you and I before the podcast, we were talking about um Ivan Clearary's book
00:54:03
which we both um listened to over summer. There was a quote that I got from there that I loved. It was like um
00:54:09
I think Ivan got it from Wayne Bennett or Craig Bellamy, but the saying was um tough conversations don't have to be
00:54:14
tough conversations. No, which I really loved. But um yeah, like how do you tell
00:54:18
someone that you know they're not making the All Blacks? Yeah. Well, look, the
00:54:22
the big conversations that comes from the head coach if they're not making the
00:54:27
All Blacks and then I will have to, you know, back that up if it's in my area
00:54:31
and have a conversations. always try and do it face to face as opposed to phone call. You know, give them a moment, you
00:54:40
know, like if effectively every Monday is a job interview. Mhm. You know, we got 36 players, 23 can play on the
00:54:48
field, you know, so they just want to know, am I in the test team for this week? And the All Blacks isn't a
00:54:54
development team. We're expected to win. And we got to pick what we believe is
00:54:58
the best team every single week. And whether or not that's the balance of youth or experienced, well, it's that's
00:55:06
the decision we need to make for the week. But that's how you know they feel.
00:55:10
But we they still got opportunities to train well. But you just got to be honest with them. You know, you you
00:55:15
can't muddle your words. You just have to be honest. And sometimes players, you
00:55:22
might say, "You're not getting a game this week. It's through nothing you've
00:55:24
done. We're just giving someone else an opportunity to have a crack for this
00:55:28
test match. We believe that's the best. Yeah, but what have I Yeah, but but what
00:55:32
do I need to do? You're doing everything right. Yeah, but why aren't I playing? Cuz we're just giving someone
00:55:38
else an opportunity. So, it's nothing I've done. No. Okay. Thanks for being honest. Do
00:55:45
you do you um do you just speak from the heart or do you sort of like, you know,
00:55:49
like think out what you're going to say in your head before you deliver this
00:55:52
news? Oh, I think you I'm big on just being authentic and not having you took
00:55:59
off all this list. I got to go this, this, this, and this. The reality is if you tell someone not they're not in the
00:56:05
squad for that week, it might be just let's catch up in the middle of the week
00:56:09
and we'll go through it cuz all they hear is why and then you might say why,
00:56:13
but they don't really hear it. You know, it's like when someone delivers you a
00:56:16
bit of [ __ ] news, it's like you're not really hearing the reasoning. So, you
00:56:21
need a bit of time to process it. So, sometimes you got to do that. Does it get easier the more you do it? No, I
00:56:29
don't think so. Not when you care about the lads so much. You know, it doesn't,
00:56:34
you know, you don't you don't I don't think you'll ever get any ease or joy
00:56:37
out of telling someone they're not wanted effectively for that that game or whatever that is. I won't.
00:56:46
2025, how's the year looking? Yeah, we look forward to it. Like, this is a real
00:56:51
downtime now for for us. You know, you got to make the most of your sort of December, January, a little bit of Feb
00:56:58
before Super starts. But we're getting together in the next couple days. The
00:57:02
boys are all coming in full squad, full management team and just a bit of a reconnect before they head off to their
00:57:07
super rugby clubs and um we we'll outline a couple of expectations for them that we want to see in key areas
00:57:15
and what that is during super and reiterate, you know, all blacks 24/7 and and just touch on a few things there.
00:57:23
But most of them probably haven't even seen a game of rugby since November, you
00:57:26
know, and good on them because it's their summer, too. But Oh, yeah. All All
00:57:30
Blacks 24/7. What do you what does that mean? Well, just be, you know, realize that you're once you're all blacks,
00:57:36
you're you're all black and and your expectations of how you are and how you
00:57:42
act and your behaviors have to be dialed in. It's a lot of pressure now. I like you
00:57:50
just can't get away with anything anymore. No, you can't. No, you can't.
00:57:54
And it's just the way the world is. It's a it's an interesting way it all works now, isn't
00:58:00
it? phones and it's just constant and you sort of even when you text someone if they haven't sort of text
00:58:07
back within a few seconds like mate why don't you get back to me isn't it it's
00:58:12
like it's a bit like that just tell me now so but you got to you got to you got
00:58:16
to be sharp um um and I I got to be at the best the best I can be to coach this team so I've done a lot of work on
00:58:26
myself in the last we while stop drinking and Yeah. Yeah. I stopped drinking coming up a year. Wife and I
00:58:33
had both done it actually. We just had a bit of a reset. It's been really nice
00:58:37
just to keep fresh and Yeah. put yourself in a good position. Yeah. Was it was there a reason for that or you
00:58:43
just decided you um I probably probably just needed to be at my best and I I don't believe it was
00:58:52
helping me really. Um be at my best. So yeah, how have you found it at the social
00:59:01
events? Like you went to the Luke Combmes concert at Eden Park the other night. Yeah. Is it um I don't know. Is
00:59:06
it Is it Is it boring or is it a bit different without a you know a tray of four beers? No. Well, you get four
00:59:12
zeros. Yeah, true. The zeros are actually pretty good these days. They are. Yeah. Look, it's um Oh, look, I got
00:59:19
You're not going to be that guy that you say, "Well, I'm not drinking now." Well,
00:59:23
you shouldn't be. That's It was my decision. and Keith and I chipped away
00:59:27
at a few things together and it's been awesome. Really, it's been good. You
00:59:30
probably don't get invited to as many things as used to, but it's um I think
00:59:36
it's kept me sharp, you know. I think it's kept me sharp. I want to do everything I can to be in the best shape
00:59:41
mentally and physically um you know to to do the best I can for the All Blacks. And probably it was just a habit really
00:59:49
and it was like h actually might just have a we breather on this. So it's been
00:59:54
good. Well, you you do seem to have like a real um growth mindset from what I can
00:59:58
see on Instagram. Like um you love your type two fun. You know that you know about type one fun, type two fun. No,
01:00:04
tell me. It was a theory I was introduced to by another guest on the podcast. Type one fun is um yeah, maybe
01:00:09
going out having a few beers or whatever, you know? So, it's like cheap dopamine. Type two fun is like mountain
01:00:14
biking, going for a run up a mountain, you know, your um wake boarding on the boat, that sort of stuff, like physical
01:00:19
activity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You seem right into that. Yeah. No, it is good. You got to have that balance, don't you?
01:00:25
I I I love the water. I love the water. Um, as I said before, just got a bit of a plan with Nick Gil around doing T and
01:00:34
myself and Ty Ellison, one of the other coaches. We're going to do the Cross
01:00:37
Church half marathon, which would be cool. So, not trying to do it on any under under any time. Just get out there
01:00:44
and do a bit of running. And it's been good. Yeah. This morning before doing
01:00:47
this podcast, you went out for a 7k run. Yeah. Yeah. Chipped away down the waterfront. How good's Oakland? What a
01:00:52
good idea. It's um the running thing. It's so good. E like I I find Yeah,
01:00:56
there's the obvious physical benefits, but just for the mental health aspect as
01:00:59
well. E so good for clearing the head. Yeah, it does clear the head. I think exercise does generally, doesn't it?
01:01:05
Movement's key, you know, like when we're in campaign, there's a lot of
01:01:11
moving parts and it's like adrenaline, you know. It's takes a while to actually
01:01:15
transition back into your own house when you've been away because you've had so
01:01:18
much movement. Yeah. So Kath um yeah let's talk about her. So coming up to 25
01:01:24
years married congratulations. That's awesome. When what how did you guys meet? What's the story there? We met um
01:01:30
through families really. I used to work as a um wash up boy in her uncle's butcher shop for the butchers
01:01:39
apprentichip. So yeah. And then I actually did the bar at her 21st. Yeah. And uh yeah, we got to know each
01:01:47
other from that night. Was it some love at first sight? Of course it was. Of course it was.
01:01:55
I saw some early photos of you guys on Instagram and um you had a good head of hair. I did. I had a full lid. It was
01:02:01
actually amazing. It was unbelievable. Yeah. What happened there? [Laughter] Oh, I don't know. Too much wakeboarding
01:02:10
just flew off. But no, no, she's gone now. No, I was I was actually um I was
01:02:14
actually um Yeah, I was pretty proud of her here, dude. M was was right on. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you you and Keith,
01:02:22
was there like is there a cute love story or um we just got to know each other. She was interested in rugby and
01:02:28
you know, yeah, we you know, we had a few few bumps along the way as anyone does and sorted a few things out and you
01:02:36
know, like any relationship, you got to work at it and it takes two people to do
01:02:39
it. So, yeah, we're coming up um 25 years, so it'll be cool. I'm going to
01:02:44
take it out of the New Zealand Golf Open. [ __ ] Does she want to go to the new? She should be
01:02:50
pumped. Joking or not? Um, oh, you want the bumps along the way? What do you mean? Just like standard relationship.
01:02:57
Yeah. Oh, you're just trying to work things out, aren't you? You know, and
01:03:00
then you have kids and that's a different dynamic. And um, yeah, things things are hard. Things
01:03:06
things there's always going to be hard patches, eh? Well, you don't you know,
01:03:10
when you when you have kids, you don't they don't really come with a manual.
01:03:14
It's, you know, you can do as much prep and antiatal classes as if you as you
01:03:20
want before to prepare prepare, don't you? But 3:00 in the morning, you ain't
01:03:25
turned to page 22 or some book. Give you the tip. Yeah. Yeah. There's a a quote I read um
01:03:32
online. Uh Kath, this is from you. Kath has been just awesome. She has seen it all. She has challenged it all. And
01:03:39
she's been at the table with me since we rolled the dice. That's it's a lovely
01:03:43
sentence. Yeah. Yeah, she has too. Yeah. And she's still there, you know, she's
01:03:47
good. She's um Yeah, she's champion. She's got a good but nice big warm heart
01:03:52
and um been so instrumental in bringing our kids up to the, you know, great people they are adults now. And yeah,
01:04:02
she she must be proud of, you know, how well you're doing with the coaching.
01:04:06
Yeah, she is. You know, she is she's she's really well balanced and um she's probably got the patience out
01:04:12
of the two of us. So, it's um Yeah, it's a good it's good balance. Yeah. I was I was going to ask
01:04:20
you what would she say if she was sitting here? What would she say like your worst habits are? Impatience.
01:04:25
Yeah. Um yeah, be definitely probably patience. Listening could be in there. Well, I can hear her, but can you out of
01:04:35
that ear? Can you hear? Yeah. You know, listening um Yeah. No, no, she's um Yeah, she's champion lover. Have you got
01:04:43
quite a good communication style at home? Yeah, we have. Yeah, we're good. We got good family WhatsApp.
01:04:49
It's um um at times R18, at times care. The kids are at such a great age, you
01:04:58
know, 22 and 19. Oh, it's Yeah. The old um Do you watch Yellowstone? Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:05
Sometimes Sometimes the dinner table's not quite like that, but it's um there's
01:05:10
a few combos. Everyone finishes eating every time. That's good. But we have a
01:05:14
lot of fun as a family, you know. Yeah. How often do you get together as a family now? The four of you? Not Not as
01:05:18
much as we'd like to, but um the kids are still at home. Um milking it. Definitely.
01:05:26
Why would you leave? Yeah. Yeah. Why would you leave? Do you charge them bored? Um they No. No. There you go. I
01:05:34
know. But they've got a they've we've got a rule that um their savings account
01:05:38
needs to have certain targets. for each year. Um, which they do and they're really good. Oh, that's good. Because
01:05:45
otherwise it's no point, you know, otherwise it is a bit of a soft approach. So, as long as they're saving
01:05:51
their money and and and getting up and doing their jobs and consistent in that, well, we got no problem with that. So,
01:05:59
it's a duty as a parent, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Also, it must with you being away
01:06:03
uh so often, it must be nice for Kath to have them around the house. Yeah, it is.
01:06:07
Yeah. Yeah. Dead right. It is. Yeah. And um you know she can come overseas when she needs to and it's pretty cool. Her
01:06:15
and M came over to Japan this year which was good. And Keith was going to come on
01:06:19
further but didn't cuz Ollie broke his ankle playing footy so he had to have
01:06:23
surgery. So she shot home but she'll come around this year to a few games. And it's always good having them there.
01:06:28
Yeah cuz All Blacks we're never really at home. as weird as it sounds when we
01:06:32
haven't actually got a home. Whether or not we're in Oakland or Wellington or
01:06:36
Deneden, we we haven't sort of got a home base where we call home as such. When you look at, you know, England,
01:06:45
Ireland, Wales, well, they've got one home ground. That's the one they play at is
01:06:51
their national stadium. So it's a little bit like we're having meetings in
01:06:56
airports and cuz we're we're moving somewhere every every Sunday we're
01:07:01
moving to another place. Yeah. I see. So it's so it's different. So you you're at
01:07:05
the Hyatt or the Crown Pra Plaza or wherever it happens to be. Wherever it happens to be. We're not in the same
01:07:11
spot. Yeah. Yeah. So it's different. And and Keith's how's she cope with that
01:07:16
adjustment with you being like absent so often now? H not too bad. She probably likes it.
01:07:22
Well, it's actually a good it's actually a good it's a good balance I think we've
01:07:25
got when we're not always together and not always apart. It's it's quite good.
01:07:30
She's away at the moment at one of her mates 50th in Ken. So, she's been away
01:07:34
for a few days so reconnecting with them. But no, no, she's she's strong.
01:07:41
Are you are you good at being um you open and vulnerable with her? You know, having Yeah. So, there's something on
01:07:47
your mind. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. the Ivan Clearary book we're talking about like
01:07:50
he talked about his mental health in there which is um sort of seems to flare up for Ivan when it's you largely um you
01:07:56
know performance based so when the team's performing badly like his mental health slips um but he talked about you
01:08:02
know being able to like openly cry and weep in front of his wife which I thought was a brave thing to share in
01:08:06
the book. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's um I really enjoyed it. You know I think we all have our moments like that and you
01:08:12
know you if if that's how you're feeling at that time well that's that's fine.
01:08:17
And it's better than keeping it in, isn't it? And and talking and and sharing stuff. I think one of the
01:08:22
greatest one of the one of the highlights for me last year was Anton Leonard Brown's little podcast he did
01:08:30
and he spoke about a bit of stuff and I remember going I love Albby. is a good man, you know, and we professional
01:08:37
personal is probably at its best between him and I. We we get on good, but we, you know, we still talk about the game
01:08:44
obviously as we have to, but I thought it was so special when he talked about himself. And I remember we were in Japan
01:08:49
and I went up to I said, "Mate, I'm so proud of you, mate. That that is
01:08:52
strong." And I'd actually just done Ivan Clearary's um podcast. I just finished
01:08:57
it and it was like, "Wow, good on you, mate. Awesome." I missed that one with
01:09:00
me. What was that? It was really good. He did a um podcast. I think it was with um Oh, I got to think off my top of my
01:09:08
head. Maybe James Marshall. No. Water. No. No. No. Um. No. It's gone. I'll have to look it up.
01:09:18
It's gone out of my head. But did he did you discuss his mental health? Yeah, he
01:09:21
was good. Yeah. No, it was a good one. Yeah. Just there. He goes through the highs and lows and bits and pieces he
01:09:26
just shared. It was It was good. Really good. Yeah. Yeah, cuz everyone goes through that stuff, but a lot of people
01:09:32
find it difficult to, I suppose, communicate it or verbalize it or share that stuff. Yeah. How's how's your
01:09:37
mental health been over the years? Yeah, it's had its moments. I think when um
01:09:41
when I was coaching Fiji, I got CO really bad in France and that really knock knocked me around. I went to
01:09:49
hospital. Yeah. Myself and Richie Gray, we were coaching the Fiji team in the Autumn Nations Cup and yeah, I was in a
01:09:55
real bad way. Yeah, I was I was no good. took me a long time to to come out of that and you know I was by myself for a
01:10:03
long time effectively you know just under two months and that was awful that that was
01:10:08
a real tough time real tough um and I had Kerry Evans helped me out with a bit of stuff with that just getting on the
01:10:15
beaten track and I thought it was all all over really was just about ready to come over Oh you thought you might die
01:10:22
yeah know I was in hospital way I was in hospital hard yeah we got we got taken to hospital Yeah. Yep. It was the Delta
01:10:29
variant when it just came about. Unreal. So, um, Dr. Kerry Evans, what sort of what sort of advice or tips can
01:10:37
he give you? Yeah. Well, he's a psychiatrist, so um he obviously knows the brain pretty good, doesn't he? And
01:10:44
he's with us now. So, um yeah, he's um he's gave me a couple of couple of weeks
01:10:49
to work on. Just acknowledged what I needed to focus on to get things right and just chipped away in them. Yeah.
01:10:55
Have you found um quitting alcohol has had an impact on your mental health at all? Everyone talks about how much how
01:11:01
much better you sleep when you stop drinking. Oh yeah. Your sleep's better. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I wasn't a massive
01:11:06
drinker. Probably a few years ago, you know, if there's a curfew at 3:00 a.m.
01:11:10
My alarm was going for 2:59. But um yeah, you definitely feel sharper in the mornings. That's good. I
01:11:18
haven't missed it at all. That's the weird thing. Yeah. But I'm not like straight away saying to people,
01:11:26
well, you've got to do this and got to do that and you shouldn't be doing it.
01:11:29
No, no, they'll make their decision, so it doesn't worry me. I feel like there's
01:11:32
never been a better better time for that. Like 25 years ago when you were playing for Buller in West Coast,
01:11:36
there's probably court sessions and there's probably like a certain amount
01:11:39
of peer pressure to drink. I feel like that doesn't exist anymore. E like if if
01:11:42
someone says they're not drinking, no one's going to call them a [ __ ] or
01:11:46
anything. It's respect them. It's made a shift. M I think it has made a shift and like%
01:11:53
Yeah, we we um we had a night at the um the Guinness factory in Dublin and the Guinness Zero is one of their fastest
01:12:01
growing drinks in the world over there at the moment and it's you wouldn't know
01:12:05
the difference. The zero alcohol's come a long way and whatever. What would a 20-year-old Jace
01:12:13
Ryan make of this guy? I don't know. The Guinness factory and having a zero. I
01:12:18
know. Guinness zero. I know. Well, I don't know. I think he'd be proud, I
01:12:24
think, wouldn't he? I'd hope so. Yeah. You want to keep changing and keep
01:12:26
evolving. You got to keep evolving. Yeah. And we're not getting any younger.
01:12:29
So, yeah. How old are you now? I am 49, 50 this year. Yeah. Your body's your
01:12:36
biggest asset. That's what we talk to the boys about. Their body is their business account. Effectively, it's
01:12:43
their body is their business. And the more they treat their business with respect through owning their body and
01:12:49
their recovery and their is a big part of it. Oh well, you would have found this from your your co journey, but
01:12:55
there's there's there's a quote I really like. It's like a a man who is healthy
01:12:58
can have unlimited wishes. A man who is unhealthy only has one wish. That's to
01:13:02
get [ __ ] better again. Yeah, totally right. Um, do you have regrets? What are your regrets?
01:13:09
[Music] Um, regrets? None that I can think of. Not giving up that mining job. No, that
01:13:20
wasn't a regret. No, it wasn't a regret. I think um No, I haven't heard of that. Uh,
01:13:28
regret. What do I regret? The fact that you have to think so hard. I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:35
Nothing significant. Nothing that stands out. No, nothing significant. And I don't think that I
01:13:41
What about adversity? Biggest adversity you've gone through. No one gets to our
01:13:44
stage of life like 50 without going through, you know, some sort of hurdles or obstacles. What would it be for you?
01:13:49
What's the biggest one? Oh, probably that when when I had to make that decision, you know, that was that was a
01:13:54
pretty big old strain. Big strain. Yeah. At a time of life where, you know, your
01:14:00
family trying to get going. Yeah. You know, it's like I just chucked this all
01:14:04
in reverse, but it's worked itself out, you know. So, um, yeah. What about goals or aspirations for the
01:14:14
future? I just want to be the best I can, um, the best version of myself and be, um,
01:14:22
you know, care about people and my players that I'm working with. There's
01:14:27
nothing better than seeing a player come in and then get to a certain level and just keep going and know that you've
01:14:34
just had a little part in in that to play, you know, like and then and then they say, "Thanks for that. I really
01:14:41
appreciated that." That's the moment that's bigger than any trophies for me.
01:14:45
Just seeing them grow and get better at their at their craft, whether or not that's on the field or off the field,
01:14:51
you know. Yeah, that's cool. Actually, this is something you've said a few times on
01:14:56
this podcast just about wanting to be Yeah. a little bit better every day. Yeah. Um when when when did you start
01:15:02
thinking that way? Is that like a midlife thing or is that is that just always been I think the environment of
01:15:08
professional coaching um helps that because you have to be you know like um it's interesting like team New
01:15:20
Zealand they they said they put more time into themselves than their opposition and I
01:15:25
was like wow that's really good more time sometime you know you got to put a
01:15:29
lot into yourself don't you of who you are and and the other people will actually get the benefits of it anyway.
01:15:36
Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you feel like as a person you've changed a lot since um
01:15:40
since you got the all black job in 2022 in terms of I suppose if you're in that
01:15:44
environment and you're around these um you know extreme high performers like
01:15:48
naturally you want to you you want to do better yourself. Yeah. I don't think
01:15:52
I've changed um anything I I do in my who I'm talking to. If it's family or friends or that
01:16:01
sort of thing. I still connect with people I love and who I need to. But I've probably had to change a few of my
01:16:07
habits of what I, you know, cuz where I want to get to and experience the World Cup and that's the ultimate when you're
01:16:16
a professional coach. That's the ultimate is to win a world championship, isn't it? Yeah. So, I've experienced
01:16:22
that and um I want more of that. So, you got to make sure you're doing some work
01:16:27
on yourself to make yourself better. Are you where you want to be? Um, no, not yet. No, I don't think I'm satisfied
01:16:35
with where I want want to get to. And I know that that I've got more to give, a
01:16:39
lot more to give. You know, like there's the the beauty of coaching, I guess, is if you stay fit and healthy,
01:16:45
you can do it for quite some time. You I'd love to coach All Blacks for as as
01:16:48
long as I can. Not forever because there'll be someone else better. I've
01:16:53
got no doubt about that. But while I'm here, I got to make sure that I'm the
01:16:56
best. And it's justified in putting that work into myself to make sure that that's happening is important. Um, but
01:17:04
never satisfied. I don't think champions are ever satisfied. And you got to keep
01:17:09
staying ahead and um not looking behind you. I guess you look behind you, you only get a sore
01:17:15
neck, don't you? Yeah, that's true. Haven't really got one. But anyway,
01:17:19
that's true. Um, oh, one final one to finish with. So, I had um Doo Allen on
01:17:25
the podcast, famous coaster to coaster, part of team New Zealand. Um he's done
01:17:30
some adventure races with Richie Mccor, and he said um in one of the advent overnight adventure races they did um
01:17:37
they were playing games to keep themselves motivated and keep themselves awake and one game that Richie came up
01:17:42
with was um everyone in the team had to come up with three words that they'd
01:17:46
like you people to say at their funeral. And um Dooall was saying one of Richie's
01:17:51
words was integrity. And Doo was thinking to himself, that's funny. That's exactly the word I would have
01:17:54
used for him. What about you? Three words um that you'd like people to say at your funeral or three words if the if
01:18:01
the All Black Forwards were in here now that you'd like them to sort of say about you.
01:18:08
Um cared, honest, loyal. Yeah, they're great words. You reckon you're there?
01:18:20
I'm still working on it definitely. You know, I'm know who I am. I'm not trying to be
01:18:27
anyone else, but I know that I care about the players and I care about who I work with and I'm honest. Um, and that's
01:18:34
a big part of it, you know, and, you know, you got to be prepared as well. You got to have all your preparation
01:18:40
done and all that sort of thing, but I think that's that's the three key ones
01:18:44
for me. I love it. And are you proud of yourself? Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Good question, Tom. I like that. I am
01:18:51
proud. Yep. It's a funny because I ask that to a lot of my guests and it's um like being a a
01:18:58
Kiwi male, especially of a certain age like ours. A lot of people squirm at at answering it. It seems I don't know like
01:19:04
boastful or it seems like we should we should not allow ourselves to be proud of ourselves. But I think it's um it's a
01:19:10
great position to be in. It is. And another thing I'm I'm a similar age to
01:19:13
you. It's it's quite exciting still, you know, being 50 and realize that you can
01:19:18
still get better and you can still do things differently. When I was 20, I would have thought at the age of 50
01:19:23
that's it. No more learning, no more growth. Like it's done, but you get here
01:19:27
and it's um it's invigorating. E it's exciting. It is. We had um just going
01:19:33
back to the Irish story. We had Joseph Parker in and he came to our club rooms and he sat sat by be behind me on the
01:19:39
bus and he was talking to Tomy Ellison. He was talking about his training regime
01:19:44
now and where he's at and his nutrition and all that. And he said to him, "I
01:19:48
feel brand new." And that really hit me. I was like, "Wow, I reckon I feel brand new, too."
01:19:56
Powerful, eh? So powerful. I feel brand new. Well, you seem you seem like you're in a
01:20:02
great space. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got me at a good time because it's January.
01:20:07
Just fresh off the lake. Yeah, fresh off the lake, you know, like, but you know,
01:20:11
I you got to you got to be, you know, like that all the time effectively, you know, but when you're high performance
01:20:17
and you're going after wins and Yeah. Well, this has been fun. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. I appreciate you asking
01:20:24
me. I really do. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to come on and I'm
01:20:27
really looking forward to see what the future brings for you, Jason Ryan. Thanks, Tom. Appreciate it.