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Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success

June 12, 2025 / 01:42:03

This episode features Cam Webster, a former New Zealand rower and current member of Team New Zealand, discussing his journey through sports, mental health, and personal growth. Key topics include his experiences as a trialist for the Rio and Tokyo Olympics, his transition to sailing, and the challenges faced in high-performance sports.

Cam shares his feelings about watching his friends, including gold medalist Michael Break, compete in the Olympics, expressing a mix of pride and envy. He reflects on the emotional toll of not making the Olympic team and how it shaped his character.

The conversation also touches on Cam's role as a cycler for Team New Zealand, the physical demands of the sport, and the camaraderie within the team. He emphasizes the importance of support and acceptance from teammates, which helped him thrive in a new environment.

Cam discusses his academic pursuits, including his law degree, and how he balances his athletic career with his studies. He shares insights on vulnerability, mental health, and the significance of celebrating others' successes.

Throughout the episode, Cam's positive outlook and resilience shine through as he navigates the ups and downs of his athletic journey, ultimately finding fulfillment in his current role with Team New Zealand.

TL;DR

Cam Webster discusses his journey from rowing to sailing, mental health, and the importance of support in sports.

Episode

1:42:03

00:00:00

My friends are some of the most amazing

00:00:01

people. And

00:00:06

one of your best mates, Michael Break,

00:00:07

he's he's a gold medalist as part of

00:00:09

that rowing eight, which he just missed

00:00:11

out on. How's watching those Olympics?

00:00:13

Oh, [ __ ] It was It was crazy, man.

00:00:15

Watching them do that was like that's my

00:00:19

dream. There was this jealousy, there

00:00:21

was this envy, but then almost a huge

00:00:24

amount of pride because I [ __ ] I'd

00:00:26

gone there with those guys. Like, I just

00:00:27

couldn't figure it out. And I think

00:00:29

that's just accepting that it's just

00:00:31

it's all good because there was a sport

00:00:33

right around the corner. You've chos

00:00:35

chosen an even more brutal path. You're

00:00:37

your role in team New Zealand. You're a

00:00:38

cycl holding that big mullet like a

00:00:41

magnum with the America's Cup insignia

00:00:43

on it and with my mate and I was just

00:00:45

like chuffed ass took a knee and and had

00:00:47

a big swig. Like it was Yeah, it was a

00:00:50

real special moment. We had a team sort

00:00:52

of debrief and I essentially just said

00:00:54

to them, I was like, "Hey, look, like I

00:00:56

know I'm a lot. I know I'm this

00:00:58

personality that's, you know,

00:01:00

overbearing at times or whatever, but as

00:01:02

soon as I turned up, they not only

00:01:04

accepted me, but celebrated me as a

00:01:06

person and it fixed me.

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Yeah. I just Yeah.

00:01:19

Ken Webster, welcome to my podcast. Good

00:01:21

day. Good to be here, man. How are you?

00:01:23

You nervous or you I'm definitely

00:01:25

nervous. Yeah, it's one of those things

00:01:26

uh like you look forward to it and then

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all of a sudden you're in here and it's

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um I don't know like Yeah, definitely

00:01:31

nervous but good. Really excited though

00:01:33

and first podcast experience. Yeah.

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Yeah. I mean I'm an avid listener of

00:01:38

like heaps podcast but yeah first time

00:01:39

actually going on one so yeah pretty

00:01:41

excited. Well it's it's great. This is

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going to be a lot of fun. Um there

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wasn't a huge amount of information uh

00:01:48

about you online but I managed to um the

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crowdsource extract from my mates. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. And your friends were really

00:01:55

good. Michael Bre in particular, rowing

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gold medalist. Durg Allen, your team New

00:02:00

Zealand teammate as well as coast to

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coast legend. And um Blair Chuke, is he

00:02:05

like one of your bosses at team? I guess

00:02:07

you could call him that. He was sort of

00:02:08

in charge of our um cycle group sailing

00:02:11

team. You're sort of the one of the

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managers um taking care of that. So I

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guess so. Yeah. More of the boys. One of

00:02:17

the boys though, really? Yeah. Yeah. So

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quick backstory. um a rower for 14

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years, 10 10 of those representing New

00:02:24

Zealand. Um you started at Westlake Boys

00:02:27

High School. Um and during your school

00:02:29

years, you won three golds, five

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silvers, and three bronze medals at

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North Island Secondary School regatas.

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Uh junior world rowing champion, under

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23 world rowing champion, and trialist

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for the Rio and Tokyo Olympics. Yes.

00:02:43

Yep, that's the one. And then retired in

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June 20 2022. Y and trial for team New

00:02:48

Zealand December of that year. Yes.

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Yeah, that's that's pretty much the the

00:02:52

cliff notes of it. Yeah. Yeah. And now

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it sounds exhausting when you read it

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out like that, right? Yeah. Long time.

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Yeah. Yeah. Long time. It was I don't

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know one of the most rewarding journeys

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I've I can can't really compare it to

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anything else, but I loved it. Like hard

00:03:06

times all through it, but yeah, it was

00:03:08

incredible really. But yet so much um

00:03:11

adversity in there as well. Like um I

00:03:13

suppose the key line in that in those

00:03:14

footnights were Rio and Tokyo Olympic

00:03:16

trialist. So you never made it to the

00:03:18

Olympic Games? No. No. That was always

00:03:20

the dream. Um it wasn't always a dream

00:03:22

since I was a kid, but it was definitely

00:03:24

a dream that I had once I was capable

00:03:27

enough to be for it to be realistic. So

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when I made the sort of um the the under

00:03:31

23 team and um 2015, I was like, "Oh, I

00:03:35

can probably get close to being a part

00:03:36

of this this Rio team here." Um, but

00:03:39

yeah, it just eluded me both times. And

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I guess that's sort of the the failures

00:03:44

in that was what really u I don't know

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it it shows it showed in what I was able

00:03:50

to do later on and it really built a lot

00:03:52

of character for me cuz I didn't get

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what I wanted if you know what I mean.

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Like I think a lot of athletes when they

00:03:57

go out there and they work hard, some of

00:03:58

them they achieve their goals and some

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of them don't. Most of them don't. Um,

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and I think it's the lessons that you

00:04:04

learn out of that stuff that I really

00:04:06

really loved. Yeah. in hindsight during

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it was pretty [ __ ]

00:04:11

There is there there's there's um so

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much um to unpack with that so much

00:04:15

adversity that you've been through and

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that's why um uh yeah when Bella an old

00:04:21

school friend of yours pitched you as a

00:04:22

guest I thought oh yeah it's it's

00:04:24

perfect cuz um yeah cuz life's a rocky

00:04:26

road. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:04:28

now um you've you've chos chosen an even

00:04:31

more brutal path. You're your role in

00:04:33

team New Zealand. You're a cycllor.

00:04:34

Yeah. Um, now I read a quote about this

00:04:37

online. Um, being a cycler is

00:04:40

outrageously physically demanding. The

00:04:42

role of cycller is one of the hardest

00:04:44

positions in any sport. Only the fittest

00:04:46

athletes on the planet need apply. Yeah,

00:04:49

that's quite a nice way to put it. It is

00:04:51

[ __ ] hard. Like it's it's it's one of

00:04:54

those sports that it's hard to really

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prep or train well for because the role

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on the boat is such a a secondary role.

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Like obviously you got Pete, Nate, Blair

00:05:04

and Andy who are really taking control

00:05:06

of the boat and they just decide all the

00:05:08

decisions. They are really on top of

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everything and we just sort of have to

00:05:11

manage the demands that they put on the

00:05:13

boat and so you know warm up is minimal.

00:05:16

Um predictability in every race is

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minimal. So you kind of just have to

00:05:19

prepare for this huge big range of

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outcomes. Some races you might you might

00:05:22

go out there and be prepared to go

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completely maximal when it's like a 50%

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effort or 60% effort. But other days

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you'll go out there and you'll have no

00:05:29

warm-up and you'll just be straight into

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100% like full FTP like max for 25 30

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minutes and it's and you know you have

00:05:37

to sort of learn as an athlete how to

00:05:39

prepare for that and I think that's why

00:05:40

a lot of athletes from like they went

00:05:44

into team New Zealand are sort of more

00:05:45

accomplished and older athletes who've

00:05:47

already done their sport because they

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need they need people who are like

00:05:53

who've been through a bit of [ __ ] and

00:05:55

are able to take a bit of a hit um and

00:05:57

are resilient enough to handle it. The

00:05:58

younger athletes sometimes don't have

00:06:00

the same level of grit that the older

00:06:01

ones do. I mean, yeah. So, that's sort

00:06:03

of my my perception of it. Anyway,

00:06:06

Doo Allen, who's um well well used to

00:06:09

being in pain and agony, like you said,

00:06:10

he's a coast to coast legend. Um yeah,

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he uses the word suffering a lot. Yeah,

00:06:15

he does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shout

00:06:17

out D. Um my boy. Um yeah. No, he he

00:06:20

knows how to suffer. That guy is

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probably one of he's incredible on that

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boat. He's got such a such a good

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combination of uh he's an incredible

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longd distance athlete and a sort of 20

00:06:30

minute 30 minute FTP athlete and he's

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incredible with those repeatable

00:06:34

thousand watt sprints. Um he hasn't got

00:06:36

quite got the maximal stuff that so like

00:06:38

some of the other big guys like me and

00:06:40

Marius or Louis Crosby could do but he

00:06:42

could repeat repeat repeat some

00:06:44

incredibly hard efforts and he was one

00:06:45

of the best on the boat. Yeah. So and it

00:06:48

is an awesome guy. Like that's just the

00:06:50

other thing. Well, it's um it's mutual

00:06:52

that is. So, um he he sent me a

00:06:55

threeminute voice note all all about

00:06:57

you. I should actually share it. I don't

00:06:58

know if it's private or not, but chuck

00:07:00

it out there, folks. Um uh yeah, he said

00:07:04

a couple of really nice things about

00:07:05

you. One quote was um that you're the

00:07:07

most loyal, thoughtful friend I've ever

00:07:09

had. His words. That's nice. Um, and he

00:07:12

said during um the the America's Cup

00:07:14

campaign, uh, he was dealing with some

00:07:16

personal stuff that that I won't get

00:07:18

into, but he said he sort of was keeping

00:07:20

his private stuff private and just

00:07:21

focusing on the job and you were um the

00:07:24

one that picked up on it. Yeah.

00:07:25

Something wasn't 100%. Yeah. There was

00:07:27

one day in the gym where we were on the

00:07:28

W bikes and it was just an afternoon

00:07:30

session hour spin something you know

00:07:32

just chill like sort of um zone 2 stuff

00:07:34

in the afternoon and um I saw he doesn't

00:07:37

usually get flustered and like frazzled

00:07:39

and he's really quite composed guy but I

00:07:41

saw and he got off the bike and I was

00:07:43

like what are you doing getting off the

00:07:44

bike? He doesn't usually do that like

00:07:45

he's like I'll finish my session I'll

00:07:47

die before I finish my session you know.

00:07:49

Um and he was out there in the in the um

00:07:52

in the forcourt and he was just like

00:07:54

have pacing and frustrated on the phone.

00:07:56

I was like, "Fuck, there's something up

00:07:57

here." And um I just sort of just had a

00:07:59

yarn to him. And I don't know, I just

00:08:02

Yeah, it's just being there for your

00:08:03

mates, I guess. I I guess I'm perceptive

00:08:05

and I could pick up on it, but yeah. I

00:08:06

mean, what else was I going to do? Not

00:08:08

say anything, you know? I just had to be

00:08:10

there for him. There's no other option.

00:08:12

Well, good on you. Well, it mean a lot

00:08:13

to him. He really appreciated it. Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, yeah, I appreciate his

00:08:16

friendship. Like, [ __ ] he's I just And

00:08:19

especially I'd say that that's universal

00:08:21

for all the guys in the team. Like it

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just the group that I managed to be a

00:08:25

part of was it was incredible. Like

00:08:27

every single person had such an

00:08:29

interesting personality and skill set

00:08:31

and and approach to training and life

00:08:33

and we all came from such different

00:08:34

angles of life and it was just and and

00:08:37

not even just athletes, everyone else in

00:08:38

the team. I just I just I loved every

00:08:40

like I'd say that the outcome of the of

00:08:42

the race, the last race like in rowing,

00:08:45

the outcome of the last race is

00:08:46

generally the most exciting part because

00:08:48

you have all this hard hard training and

00:08:49

you're really in the in the dumps and

00:08:50

you're really working hard. you're

00:08:51

tired. It was the same with team New

00:08:54

Zealand, but the enjoyment of that final

00:08:56

outcome was spread over the two years I

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was in the team. Like I I just since the

00:09:00

day I turned up, I was like, I'm [ __ ]

00:09:02

all in here. And I just loved it.

00:09:05

Absolutely loved it. Yeah. Your your

00:09:08

friend um Michael Bre, who's a rowing

00:09:11

gold medalist, um he said he said,

00:09:14

"Yeah, you you loved um being in the

00:09:15

environment as soon as you were in

00:09:16

there." Not just the training, but even

00:09:18

doing [ __ ] jobs. described it when you

00:09:21

were just like driving around picking up

00:09:23

bits of sailing equipment or whatever.

00:09:25

You were just like fizzing about being

00:09:27

in that environment. Yeah. So it was

00:09:28

like our job as a cycles was obviously

00:09:31

to do our training and get on the bike

00:09:33

and perform. But we had the two years of

00:09:36

the whole campaign. So we had to also

00:09:39

contribute in other ways. And the way

00:09:40

that we did that was becoming

00:09:41

essentially like apprentices in the

00:09:43

shed. So like it just sweeping floors,

00:09:45

vacuuming, cleaning up after people,

00:09:47

tidying area. We had our shore manager

00:09:50

Shawn Reagan who's like the one of the

00:09:51

coolest men I've ever met. Um and he was

00:09:54

sort of our go-to guy boss on the floor

00:09:57

and um I was probably in Oakuckland uh

00:10:00

and didn't me and Louis Crosby were

00:10:02

probably the most in Oakuckland and I I

00:10:04

sort of decided that and I knew the

00:10:05

roads quite well cuz I grew up here. So

00:10:07

I was I was the guy that was in the in

00:10:09

the utes doing the courier jobs every

00:10:11

day. So, I'd get out and do a run over

00:10:13

to the Northshore before lunch and the

00:10:14

run our south before um after lunch. And

00:10:16

that was picking up all the custom

00:10:18

equipment that we needed for the boat to

00:10:20

to obviously get it working cuz you

00:10:21

couldn't trust the career services cuz

00:10:22

at first took too long and they might

00:10:24

lose it. So, and all these parts are so

00:10:26

incredibly intricate and special that

00:10:28

they need to be delivered with

00:10:29

certainty. So, I was the guy that we

00:10:30

that would just go pick it all up and

00:10:32

deliver it. Yeah, lots of fun and cool

00:10:34

to see like the suppliers and all the

00:10:37

different intricacies of of of the of

00:10:39

the the supply chain operation as well.

00:10:41

But yeah, it was it was cool to sort of

00:10:44

see that side of the of the team. But

00:10:46

from what I can gather, this is just

00:10:47

your your personality type. You're just

00:10:49

relentlessly positive and able to find

00:10:51

the silver lining. And yeah, I don't I

00:10:56

think I learned that honestly as a kid.

00:10:58

I wasn't particularly like that. I I

00:11:00

might have been. I can't remember to be

00:11:02

honest. Um yeah. Yeah. Okay. What what

00:11:05

else have we got? We we've got some low

00:11:06

hanging fruit before we drill down into

00:11:08

the rowing. Um so Doo Allen said you're

00:11:11

the the king of impersonations. Um he

00:11:13

said you ask him to do someone, he can

00:11:15

do it. Um and he gave me a few names. Um

00:11:18

uh President Trump. Donald Trump. We

00:11:22

freaking love that guy. Donald Trump. I

00:11:25

don't know. It's hard to get on a roll,

00:11:27

especially in front of cameras. But

00:11:29

yeah, it's it's one of those things I

00:11:30

just sort of bring out in the group. It

00:11:32

just sort of I think it's a morale

00:11:33

thing. I enjoy doing it. When I was

00:11:36

young, I sort of started doing

00:11:37

impersonations to sort of make the

00:11:38

family happy. Like there's a bit of

00:11:40

like, you know, there's a bit of stress

00:11:41

and a bit of, you know, anxiety in

00:11:43

families always as you're growing up.

00:11:44

And I was sort of the court jester, the

00:11:46

youngest of four kids, and I just sort

00:11:48

of ran along the back making jokes and

00:11:49

being silly. And that was my sort of

00:11:52

outlet to feel validated and feel loved.

00:11:55

I guess when I made a joke and everyone

00:11:56

laughed, I felt good about myself. So, I

00:11:58

just kept doing that as I got older and

00:12:00

older and I've just love doing

00:12:02

impressions and taking the piss. So,

00:12:03

that's kind of that's kind of where it

00:12:05

came from. Okay. Um, Matthew McConn. Oh,

00:12:08

Matthew McConn. Like doing that one. Oh,

00:12:11

I haven't You caught me off guard there.

00:12:13

D even said this. He said you might

00:12:15

throw him a name and he might have to go

00:12:16

to the bathroom for five minutes to

00:12:18

listen because I usually have to think

00:12:19

about it before I'm getting into it.

00:12:21

Okay. What about um uh Peter Berling?

00:12:24

Oh, Pete. Yeah. Good Pete. Yeah. Uh good

00:12:27

day guys. Yeah. Uh coffee. Yeah.

00:12:30

Cuz on the I just we're out for dinner

00:12:32

one evening um just casually in

00:12:34

Barcelona and he he was we was having a

00:12:37

conversation and Pete was just like yeah

00:12:39

copy copy. Yeah. Like out of the boat.

00:12:42

And I as a new athlete into a sailing

00:12:44

sort of team I was like why would you

00:12:46

say copy in a that is such a crazy thing

00:12:48

to say in like a in a colloquial chill

00:12:50

social setting. And and it's just become

00:12:52

a part of my whole vernacular now. So

00:12:54

when we were on the boat actually we had

00:12:56

um our comms was only linked up between

00:12:58

the cycles and the sailors couldn't

00:13:00

actually hear us. Um that was only

00:13:02

towards the very end of the campaign and

00:13:04

um we would just when obviously when it

00:13:07

was a more relaxed time we were just

00:13:08

sort of chilled sailing around or

00:13:10

sitting on the water. Um the boys would

00:13:13

talk and we just kind of lowkey just

00:13:15

sort of like take the piss in the

00:13:16

background just to keep the morale high

00:13:18

in the cycles like me and Simon

00:13:19

Vanvelovven especially. Yeah. He's Oh,

00:13:23

yeah. Sure. There's It's a star stud

00:13:26

cyclist. So, Simon, who's um like an

00:13:28

Olympic um track cyclist. Um there's

00:13:31

yourself with your rowing pedigree,

00:13:33

Hamish Bond. Yeah, Bondi. Um who's the

00:13:35

SAS guy? There's Maris Vanderpole. One

00:13:37

of the most impressive dudes you've ever

00:13:39

seen. He's like built like a brick [ __ ]

00:13:41

house. Like he's just like shoulders out

00:13:42

here and one of the nicest guys ever.

00:13:44

And yeah, you'll never see him sitting

00:13:46

down, but he'll always be kneeling. If

00:13:48

we ever need to do anything, he's

00:13:49

kneeling. He's ready. He's poised and

00:13:50

he's off. He's ready to go. Why? I think

00:13:52

it's I think it's an army thing, but he

00:13:54

cuz he was in the SAS, you know. I don't

00:13:56

know what it is, but he he's always

00:13:57

whenever we're having a team chat or

00:13:59

sitting. He's just like kneeling. He's

00:14:00

like ready, right? Like Gogggins like

00:14:02

sitting is too comfortable. I mean, it's

00:14:04

not too far from really like cuz this

00:14:05

SAS stuff they talk about their packs

00:14:07

that they'd have and the sort of

00:14:08

training they do and that sort of

00:14:10

selection week. Sounds grueling, man.

00:14:12

I've talked to Marius a bit about it and

00:14:14

[ __ ] it was it's crazy the [ __ ] they do.

00:14:17

Yeah. It's like almost like tempting for

00:14:19

somebody like an athlete to want to try

00:14:21

and do to see if they're capable, but

00:14:23

also the most terrifying thing ever. So,

00:14:25

I don't know. Yeah. I suppose it goes

00:14:27

back to that suffering word as well,

00:14:28

doesn't it? Yeah. Um, yeah. What else

00:14:30

have we got? Um, oh, while working for

00:14:33

team New Zealand, is it you started

00:14:34

doing med school, but you dropped out

00:14:35

and switched to law? No, no, no. So, I

00:14:37

wanted to be I wanted to do meds since I

00:14:39

was a young kid. I actually had a elbow

00:14:41

reconstruction when I was 5 years old.

00:14:43

Right. So, I had like I've got a big

00:14:44

scar in here and I had to I went into

00:14:47

surgery um and it and it came out and my

00:14:50

elbow was at like a completely wrong

00:14:51

angle. So, they had to rebre my arm like

00:14:53

over 6 months. So, this is my actually

00:14:55

my dominant arm in rowing too which is

00:14:57

quite funny. It still works pretty good.

00:14:58

Um so I wanted to be a surgeon ever

00:15:01

since I was young. Um and then when I

00:15:02

got to high school I was like [ __ ]

00:15:04

that's way too hard. So especially with

00:15:06

sport I was like ah no buck that. And

00:15:08

sport was going well. So I then my old

00:15:10

man's a lawyer and I was like I quite

00:15:12

like English and chatting and like you

00:15:14

know I understand people relatively

00:15:15

well. So I started law at uni in 2014.

00:15:18

Yeah. Finished it. Yeah. You finished it

00:15:21

dur while working for team New Zealand

00:15:23

getting ready for the America's Cup.

00:15:24

Yeah. Yeah. So my first six months with

00:15:26

the team. I sort of negotiated with the

00:15:28

boss um Shu to um to take the first

00:15:31

semester. I only had I had three days a

00:15:33

week at work and two days a week at uni.

00:15:35

and I'd still train full-time, but I

00:15:37

wouldn't be in the shed for those two

00:15:39

days a week. So, I'd sort of train in

00:15:41

the morning and then head up to AUT um

00:15:43

to do my to do my uh my last four papers

00:15:47

and then yeah, got that finished um just

00:15:49

before we went to Barcelona the first

00:15:51

year, 2023. Awesome. Yeah. And you Yeah.

00:15:54

You never really had a chance to do

00:15:55

anything other than law, right? So, you

00:15:57

you're a fourth generation. Yeah. Fourth

00:15:59

generational Simon will love that. Yeah.

00:16:01

Fourth generational lawyer. Yeah. So my

00:16:02

dad um grandad and great granddad. Yeah.

00:16:05

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really know that

00:16:06

until I don't know like a couple years

00:16:08

ago and dad was like no it's there's

00:16:09

there's there's four generations of that

00:16:11

now. There's a there's a firm in town

00:16:12

called Webs and Malcolm Kilpatrick and

00:16:14

that was my my grandfather's firm and my

00:16:17

dad wasn't even allowed to to work

00:16:19

there. Yeah. So yeah. Are you going to

00:16:21

use the law degree like what happens

00:16:23

now? Blair Chuke um I spoke he's in LA

00:16:26

for the sale GP at the moment. He gave

00:16:28

me a call last night and we were talking

00:16:29

about you. He was explaining how how it

00:16:31

works and he said it's tough for the

00:16:32

Cyclones because it's almost like um you

00:16:34

contract employees. Yeah. So, uh

00:16:37

America's Cup was last year and then

00:16:39

you're not needed for another couple of

00:16:40

years. So, you got like two years. It's

00:16:42

so uncertain like because they don't

00:16:44

know what the class rules are going to

00:16:45

be. They don't know what the boat's

00:16:46

going to be and therefore they don't

00:16:48

know what the requirements on the team's

00:16:50

going to be and and what personnel

00:16:51

they'll need. So, essentially my job is

00:16:53

is non-existent until they decide so

00:16:56

many more decisions further up the line.

00:16:58

And I'm I'm totally understood that from

00:17:00

day one. Um, so what do you do? You have

00:17:02

to put your life on limbo for a Well, I

00:17:04

I mean some people can see it like that,

00:17:06

but I sort of see it like I can sort of

00:17:08

I've got an opportunity now to sort of

00:17:10

get my career and my long-term plans

00:17:14

going. Like I finished my law degree in

00:17:15

2023 and I graduated then I was like

00:17:18

cool, relaxed with the team, enjoyed

00:17:19

myself and starting this year I got

00:17:22

after the team finished um up last year

00:17:24

I started my professional legal studies

00:17:26

the start of this year. So, it's an

00:17:27

18week course to get admitted to the

00:17:29

bar. So, I'm going to go go to the high

00:17:30

court, put the wig on, put the cape on

00:17:32

with my old man, and and um and go

00:17:34

practice law before I And also the thing

00:17:38

is there's no guarantees on the team

00:17:39

again. It's all so up in the air. So,

00:17:43

you just sort of like continue your life

00:17:45

and go hard and keep training and try to

00:17:47

keep fit and do the best you can and

00:17:49

then make sure you're in a good position

00:17:50

when the opportunity comes around again

00:17:52

if it does. Yeah, it's again, it's the

00:17:55

glass half full thing. It's such a good

00:17:56

way of looking at it, but it's um yeah,

00:17:59

like the uncertainty would drive most

00:18:00

people [ __ ] crazy. The fact that you

00:18:02

can't you're it seems like you're an all

00:18:04

gas, no brakes kind of guy, but you

00:18:05

can't you got one foot in this, you

00:18:07

know, office career and another foot

00:18:09

still in the in the water. Yeah,

00:18:11

definitely. It's um I I just see it as

00:18:14

like if you prepare yourself well enough

00:18:16

as a young person then and I don't

00:18:19

really have other anyone other than my

00:18:20

family to sort of help me for this

00:18:21

because I sort of found myself in my

00:18:23

late 20s going, "Oh, [ __ ] I've done

00:18:25

that. I've doing my law degree and I'm

00:18:27

really nearly finished it. I may as well

00:18:29

keep doing it. And then I've got this

00:18:31

potential of like, do I want to go be a

00:18:33

lawyer? Do you want to do business? Do I

00:18:35

want to do be an athlete? Work with team

00:18:36

New Zealand. I was like, [ __ ] there's

00:18:37

so many choices. And and I think if you

00:18:40

work really hard when you're young, even

00:18:41

if you can't really see the outcome of

00:18:43

it or or the potential outcomes, if it

00:18:46

feels like kind of the right thing to do

00:18:47

and it doesn't feel like contrary to

00:18:48

your conscience or whatever, then it's

00:18:50

just go for it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's

00:18:53

working. Yeah. [ __ ] Seems like it

00:18:55

you've creamed a lot in. How How old are

00:18:57

you? 20. I'm 30 now. [ __ ] At the 30,

00:18:59

you know. Calm down, grandad. Start of

00:19:01

the year. Some grays coming in like a

00:19:03

bit of the beard, you know. Um, yeah.

00:19:06

Couple couple more bits of low hanging

00:19:07

fruit. Um, so you're a collector of

00:19:09

cars. You've got a yellow Lamborghini.

00:19:11

There it is. I've tried to keep that one

00:19:14

on. Yeah. Yeah. What are you doing with

00:19:16

a yellow Lamborghini? I mean, when you

00:19:18

say it like that, it sounds bad, but um

00:19:20

I I Okay, we're going to go for it. Um,

00:19:24

so I found myself in a position where I

00:19:27

could invest in something and I didn't

00:19:29

want to over capitalize and buy another

00:19:30

house. I have already own a house which

00:19:32

is incredibly lucky. Grew up very like

00:19:34

it's it's a lovely thing to have as a

00:19:36

young person and I know it's not easy

00:19:38

for everyone to do and I found myself in

00:19:39

a very like um, you know, fortuitous

00:19:41

position and I was like [ __ ] I'm going

00:19:43

to see if I can you know capitalize on

00:19:45

this and build a bit more wealth. And my

00:19:47

I've grown up with cars. Like the cars

00:19:50

has been like probably the one main

00:19:51

pillar in my family. Like my old man's a

00:19:53

collector. He did, you know, race he's

00:19:55

he's a race car driver. He did rally

00:19:57

rally driving. He did the target rally.

00:19:58

He's done track track driving. He's had

00:20:01

epic cars around the house since I was a

00:20:03

young boy. Um so I know that and I've

00:20:07

got a lot of good friends that are the

00:20:08

same. Um one particular good friend

00:20:10

James who lives down in Patitonga. So

00:20:12

just down in the he owns a macadamia

00:20:14

orchard which is one of the coolest

00:20:15

things ever. Um, and he sort of we sort

00:20:18

of yanned about it and thought, let's

00:20:20

let's try and see if we can build a bit

00:20:21

of I don't know, build a bit of wealth,

00:20:23

if that's what you're going to call it.

00:20:25

Um, and invest in something really cool

00:20:27

that I can actually look at it and look

00:20:28

at in the garage and like go for drives

00:20:30

in and be proud of and learn learn about

00:20:33

bits of myself that I probably wasn't

00:20:34

that comfortable with. Like owning a car

00:20:36

like that is [ __ ] it's intense, man.

00:20:38

What What do you mean learning bits

00:20:40

about yourself? Oh, like you drive down

00:20:41

the road in that car and people assume

00:20:42

you're a [ __ ] cuz it's a yellow

00:20:44

Lamborghini.

00:20:45

and it makes a shitload of noise like

00:20:48

and and if you drive it anything other

00:20:49

than like an Anna, it's just popping and

00:20:51

banging and like so you have to be you

00:20:54

have to be okay with who you are as a

00:20:56

person and and also just like know that

00:20:59

what I what I did to get there and own

00:21:01

that thing is it was done on my back and

00:21:03

from a lot of people helping me and I

00:21:05

and I will never take that for granted

00:21:06

and something that I'm incredibly

00:21:08

grateful for. If I wanted to buy a car

00:21:09

that was purely for my own interest, it

00:21:11

wouldn't have been a yellow Lambo, trust

00:21:12

me. But owning one's pretty sick and

00:21:16

like you're trying that shoe on for a

00:21:17

little bit. It's kind of fun, especially

00:21:18

at my age. Yeah. But you you you're such

00:21:21

a big guy and you love big dogs as well.

00:21:22

You love Leon bers, which is one of the

00:21:24

biggest dog breeds in the world. Yeah.

00:21:26

I'm just I I without seeing it, I'm just

00:21:29

imagining you like a a 2 m tall dude and

00:21:31

a gigantic dog in the passenger seat.

00:21:33

Yeah. It's a crazy crazy image. Yeah.

00:21:35

Know, it's a crazy image. It's uh I I

00:21:37

tend to I ask my friends, I don't tend

00:21:39

to do things by halves. If I'm going to

00:21:40

do it, let's [ __ ] do it, you know?

00:21:42

and and um yeah, from from what I know

00:21:44

from um being mates with Blair Chuke for

00:21:46

a while, it's like um team New Zealand's

00:21:48

like a it's a very lowkey sort of team

00:21:50

like they're really big on like the you

00:21:52

know the staying grounded and sort of

00:21:54

like a no [ __ ] policy sort of thing.

00:21:56

You're not pulling up to the base in the

00:21:57

yellow. Okay, there's I did do that once

00:21:59

or twice and I learned my lesson very

00:22:02

quickly. I did it once but I was talking

00:22:04

I I took I didn't bring it into work the

00:22:06

first first day. I took it and parked in

00:22:08

the parking building and I told some of

00:22:10

it some of the boys about it and they

00:22:11

said I'll bring it in and let us see it

00:22:13

and I bought it in and that was fine and

00:22:15

then a couple like maybe a week later I

00:22:17

bought it in and I parked it outside the

00:22:20

front of the gym and [ __ ] I got accosted

00:22:22

in the group chat in the in the team

00:22:24

chat. I just got laid into. And for fair

00:22:26

enough, man. Like I I I totally

00:22:29

understand the the team culture and I

00:22:30

don't want to I never want to be

00:22:32

contrary to that. Like the the way the

00:22:35

team operates and the and the and the

00:22:37

and the values that they have, I think

00:22:38

are incredibly special. And for for some

00:22:41

dick young [ __ ] young guy to come in

00:22:43

and think he could do it, you know,

00:22:44

starts earning a bit of money and thinks

00:22:45

he can just bring his his dumb car into

00:22:47

work, like that's I I completely

00:22:50

understand that. and I just reigned it

00:22:51

in so quick and I'm like, "No, not

00:22:53

happening again." Um, but it was kind of

00:22:56

funny in hindsight. And also like what

00:22:58

what you were saying before like you see

00:23:00

the the car and you immediately

00:23:03

um

00:23:05

picture the person that's in it or or

00:23:07

create an image. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which

00:23:09

is not necessarily not necessarily true.

00:23:11

No, I mean there are people who own

00:23:13

there's every kind of person owns every

00:23:15

kind of car, you know, and cars have

00:23:17

this really like, you know, pigeon hole

00:23:19

idea and I get it like that's common.

00:23:21

You see go down Pon Road, you see some

00:23:23

some green Lambo hooning around and yes,

00:23:25

you you think he's he's a [ __ ] But it's

00:23:27

um I think that's also just our own

00:23:29

stereotypes that we get caught up in and

00:23:31

like I like to prove everyone wrong one

00:23:33

person at a time. pull over to the gas

00:23:35

station, fill up the car, have a really

00:23:37

nice conversation with someone who's

00:23:38

interested in it or just I don't know or

00:23:41

just taking my friends for like a lot of

00:23:42

my good friends have driven it and I've

00:23:44

really tried to share it around and I've

00:23:45

driven it heaps and I don't know it's

00:23:47

just taught me a lot about myself and

00:23:49

people probably think oh you're [ __ ]

00:23:50

whatever but like you know I you can

00:23:52

think what you like. I've really enjoyed

00:23:53

it and I've learned a shitload about my

00:23:55

own personality and my own like like

00:23:58

insecurities from from even having it.

00:24:00

Yeah. What are your insecurities? Oh far

00:24:03

out. What's the list? Um,

00:24:07

ah, man, I was huge people pleaser for

00:24:09

the longest time. Just I I had so much

00:24:12

of my own selfworth, but caught up in

00:24:15

what other people thought of me. And I

00:24:16

that really worked in a team environment

00:24:19

cuz I really loved committing all myself

00:24:21

to the team, but sometimes I would go I

00:24:23

would sort of empty my own tank before I

00:24:24

was actually capable of um, you know,

00:24:27

performing. So, it was kind of

00:24:28

unhelpful. Body image stuff, huge. I was

00:24:31

a massive kid growing up. I was like

00:24:33

probably a head and a half tall in every

00:24:35

kid and twice the weight of every kid

00:24:36

growing up, especially up until like

00:24:38

high school. So, exclusion, bullying,

00:24:42

like I got like heaps of stories of when

00:24:44

I was young just like completely being

00:24:46

excluded from every single friend group

00:24:48

and just being incredibly upset the

00:24:51

whole of primary school because of it.

00:24:52

And I had some really really really

00:24:55

great um teachers. One one teacher in

00:24:58

particular in year three. Um I was just

00:25:01

beating kids up left front and center.

00:25:02

Like they would have a go at me or they

00:25:05

would exclude me and I'd just run at

00:25:08

them cuz I was like as like an

00:25:10

8-year-old I was probably like 70 kilos

00:25:12

or something. Like I was massive and

00:25:15

quite chubby and you know funny looking

00:25:16

dude. And I'd just run at them and if I

00:25:18

could catch them I just grab them and

00:25:19

throw them. And it was like completely

00:25:22

unhelpful like especially for trying to

00:25:24

teach me some good social skills. And um

00:25:27

there was this teacher Mrs. Low who um

00:25:30

she she essentially pulled me aside and

00:25:33

taught me at an incredibly early age

00:25:35

that that that's not how we do things

00:25:38

and we need to control that um that

00:25:42

emotion or that frustration, that anger

00:25:44

and not do it. So, what I'd essentially

00:25:46

have this book um and it was like a

00:25:49

jurised book and I'd get gold stars

00:25:51

every time I wouldn't beat the kid up

00:25:52

for the week.

00:25:54

It sounds ridiculous, but I was I was

00:25:56

such an upset kid, man. I was and I'd

00:25:58

always get like I'd always get in huge

00:26:01

amounts of trouble with all the staff at

00:26:03

the school because these kids would just

00:26:04

run to the to the to the teachers and

00:26:06

say, "Oh, Cam hit me." And it was just

00:26:07

like, "Well, of course I did." And I hit

00:26:09

them pretty hard. Um,

00:26:12

and but we were were you were you a

00:26:13

bully or was it like a self-defense? No,

00:26:15

it was I just felt No, it was it was I

00:26:18

was trying to to include myself in the

00:26:20

in the in the group and trying to join

00:26:21

the games on the on the playground. Like

00:26:23

I remember going up to a playground at

00:26:25

at one point and going um and one of the

00:26:28

kids saying, "Oh, anyone whose name

00:26:29

starts with with the letter C can't play

00:26:31

with us." And I know I'm bringing up

00:26:32

[ __ ] from a childhood, but this is stuff

00:26:33

I've had to figure out, you know. Oh,

00:26:35

and that stuff that stuff scars stick

00:26:37

with you. And unless you go back and

00:26:39

figure it out, it just keeps [ __ ]

00:26:40

with you until you get older. And it

00:26:41

like it comes out in weird ways. So like

00:26:43

I was the only kid who had the letter

00:26:45

name starting with C. And I was like, it

00:26:47

was a a pointed thing at me. So you're

00:26:49

not included. And I've always like that

00:26:51

exclusion that I felt as a kid was so

00:26:53

like it just it sort of haunted me and

00:26:56

it sort of made me that's why I love

00:26:57

being a part of teams because the teams

00:26:59

is means inclusion and inclusion means I

00:27:01

feel safe and good about myself. So

00:27:04

yeah, that was um yeah, and it was the

00:27:07

the the I guess the violence or the the

00:27:09

the physical nature of what I was like

00:27:11

as a kid was always as a result of just

00:27:12

me just getting to the end of my tether.

00:27:14

Like people just put a poke poke poke

00:27:16

poke poke poke and I just blow up, you

00:27:18

know. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing

00:27:22

that. I mean, you you've definitely done

00:27:23

a lot of work actually. Um, Doo Doo uh

00:27:28

um he he he said there's 150 people in

00:27:30

team New Zealand and you had say that

00:27:32

across the board you'd probably be

00:27:33

widely regarded as uh the most popular.

00:27:36

[ __ ] Okay. Yeah, that's a nice thing

00:27:38

for him to say. I asked Blair. Blair

00:27:40

said you'd be number two behind behind

00:27:42

him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's

00:27:44

a huge thing to say though, eh? Oh, I

00:27:46

mean I just love the people. That's the

00:27:48

thing. I I love every single like every

00:27:52

interaction I have like going into the

00:27:53

shed in the morning after training and

00:27:55

having breakfast was like a highlight.

00:27:56

I'd just go around the around the

00:27:58

different trades. We had the the rig

00:27:59

bait taking care of all the the mast and

00:28:01

the and the rig and and then we had the

00:28:03

boat builders then we had the the

00:28:05

composite guys and then you know the

00:28:06

engineers and I just really thrived off

00:28:09

that amount of energy cuz there's so

00:28:10

many people and if you have good

00:28:12

interactions at the very start of your

00:28:14

day then far out like it starts off so

00:28:16

well. Yeah. and it just boosts your

00:28:19

whole day.

00:28:22

Let's go back and talk about some of the

00:28:24

rowing stuff. So um at the front of the

00:28:25

podcast I mentioned some of the

00:28:27

achievements um at a young age. So you

00:28:29

so you were sort of naturally good.

00:28:31

Yeah, I was I was quite a big guy as as

00:28:33

a start of third form or year n I was

00:28:35

like 96 kilos and like 6'1 6'2 and yeah

00:28:40

I was I wasn't much smaller than this to

00:28:41

be honest. Um and my brother um he was a

00:28:45

he's a rower at Westlake as well and he

00:28:47

he was he was you know Marty Cup

00:28:49

participant. He raced in the Marty Cup

00:28:51

and um and I sort of always saw that as

00:28:53

like a quite an awesome thing and he as

00:28:56

ever since I was young he was always

00:28:57

like Cam you're big you should row or

00:28:58

you're going to row. I didn't have a

00:29:00

choice. Um I was just doing what I was

00:29:02

told really. Um and a lot of my family

00:29:04

friends um you know my brother and his

00:29:07

one of his good friends Chris Cole he

00:29:09

was a rower at the same time at Westlake

00:29:10

and that whole family the Cole family

00:29:12

and my family were you know quite good

00:29:14

family friends and um and it was just

00:29:16

like a it was a train that I was just on

00:29:18

you know I didn't I didn't choose it. It

00:29:19

was just something that was happening

00:29:20

and um yeah I ended up actually being

00:29:23

quite good at it. Not it wasn't a

00:29:25

natural thing. I had a lot of there was

00:29:28

a shitload of things I had to like

00:29:31

confront before I actually got quite

00:29:33

good. I was naturally a pretty lazy kid,

00:29:35

just, you know, big, strong, never had

00:29:37

to try that hard at anything like

00:29:38

physically because it just came to me

00:29:40

naturally um in terms of the the

00:29:43

strength and effort side. But then when

00:29:45

work ethic came into it, I was just

00:29:47

horrendous. Like I was like, I don't

00:29:48

want to try hard. I'm a big big [ __ ]

00:29:50

you know? So I just um it was literally

00:29:53

like chipping away like I sort of carve

00:29:56

the the work ethic out of stone, you

00:29:58

know? It was like from from my first

00:30:00

year it was like extra sessions like on

00:30:03

the URG a lot um to try and sort of get

00:30:07

used to what it felt like working hard

00:30:09

and then also starting to enjoy that

00:30:11

feeling and then get comfortable in that

00:30:12

feeling. I mean you must know it with

00:30:13

your running like you get to a point

00:30:15

where you're no longer pushing [ __ ]

00:30:18

uphill when you're actually sort of in

00:30:19

this nice um zone where you can just

00:30:21

maintain the pace and it took ages to

00:30:25

get there cuz I just was just lazy. But

00:30:28

this is your teenage years though,

00:30:29

right? When you're still at school.

00:30:30

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's a little lazy at

00:30:32

that point. Yeah. But it it carried I

00:30:33

carried on. It was a theme that carried

00:30:35

on well into my sort of in terms of the

00:30:38

rowing sense. The work ethic and rowing

00:30:40

was was something that they that coaches

00:30:41

were consistently um needing for me to

00:30:44

work on until I was about I really com I

00:30:47

really sort of put it nail in the coffin

00:30:50

around 2014 2015 when I started at the

00:30:54

regional performance center here in

00:30:55

Oakland with some of the coaches there.

00:30:56

It was it was crazy hard program and you

00:30:59

just and all of a sudden you just like

00:31:01

came over the hump and you could

00:31:02

actually do all the training and you had

00:31:04

a good work ethic and I sort of made it

00:31:05

one of my strengths at that point cuz

00:31:07

I'd just done it for so long and it was

00:31:08

just fighting that fight for so long and

00:31:10

I was so angry about it when people said

00:31:12

oh Cam's being a [ __ ] I was like [ __ ]

00:31:14

So I I hated hated feeling that like

00:31:16

accusation of being a [ __ ] so I just

00:31:18

fought against it the whole time and

00:31:20

just worked my ass off. So it was fuel

00:31:22

worked as fuel. Yeah. Yeah. And once you

00:31:24

get on the path of that, like proving

00:31:26

someone wrong, it's kind of infectious,

00:31:28

man. Like you're just like, "Look at

00:31:29

that result. Yeah, [ __ ] you. Look at

00:31:31

that result." You know, you keep proving

00:31:32

them wrong and it's Yeah. It's really

00:31:34

good. Yeah. So, you retired from rowing

00:31:36

three years ago. Um, and then there was,

00:31:38

from what I can gather, there was like a

00:31:39

gap of maybe five or six months before

00:31:41

team New Zealand came along. Yeah. Um,

00:31:43

what would you be doing now if you quit

00:31:45

row? What did you see yourself doing

00:31:46

when you retired from R? Um well

00:31:48

actually funny you say that but just

00:31:49

because I I talked to Joe Sullivan who

00:31:53

was a cycllor and a grinder um on the

00:31:55

2021 and 2017 campaign on the on team

00:31:58

New Zealand and a rowing legend um first

00:32:01

of all I watched him when I was in the

00:32:03

junior world champs I watched them win

00:32:04

gold of the Olympics one of the most

00:32:06

impressive races ever you know about

00:32:07

that one like Joe Sullivan and Nathan

00:32:10

Nathan I've had Joe on the podcast

00:32:12

honestly like [ __ ] it's such a cool race

00:32:14

to watch um but yeah so he'd been in

00:32:17

touch with me uh during the 2021 camp or

00:32:20

before the 2021 campaign just sort of

00:32:22

canvasing to see if I'd be interested in

00:32:24

joining the team. So, and when I was

00:32:27

finishing up with a rowing, I I can't

00:32:31

remember exactly the timeline, but there

00:32:32

was an email that was sent out not long

00:32:35

after I retired, like a month or two

00:32:36

maybe um from Kim um Kim Simpingham,

00:32:40

who's the the SNC at um at team New

00:32:43

Zealand, and he was sort of putting a

00:32:46

call out to all the people that sort of

00:32:49

from the different sports and NSOs that

00:32:53

they thought might be good for the role

00:32:55

and it was there was a five or six group

00:32:57

of us from rowing and then I don't know

00:32:59

whoever else from other sports so I kind

00:33:01

of knew that there was something there

00:33:04

and I knew that I needed to get on to it

00:33:06

but I also had my degree to finish and I

00:33:07

was sort of like I was just and just

00:33:09

enjoying my time so I' I'd have days in

00:33:11

I'd have three half the week in in

00:33:13

Cambridge then half the week in Oakland

00:33:15

sort of yeah it was it was a good time

00:33:17

but it was a bit um yeah all over the

00:33:19

place really yeah why why the decision

00:33:22

to retire from rowing you put you put a

00:33:24

massive post up on Instagram which is um

00:33:26

it's it's really nice but it talks about

00:33:27

all your achievements um and doesn't

00:33:30

sort of highlight the the the

00:33:31

disappointments but yeah was it like a

00:33:33

bittersweet time? Yeah. Um well the

00:33:36

whole the whole period I guess from you

00:33:39

could say the period from 2018 onwards

00:33:41

was quite bittersweet with some nice

00:33:43

with some really lovely moments like I

00:33:44

did a pretty solid rowing career. I'd

00:33:46

had junior world championship gold and I

00:33:49

got th fourth the next year in the same

00:33:51

boat class and I'd been in the RPC

00:33:53

system and I was sort of gradually doing

00:33:54

this but times were getting better and I

00:33:56

was like this is mean I'm really

00:33:57

enjoying this. Got silver at under 23s

00:34:00

2015 then gold under 23s in 2016. I was

00:34:02

like we are on here like I'm doing well

00:34:04

at this. Um then made this New Zealand

00:34:08

summer squad team for 2017. And so it

00:34:10

was like this really steady steady build

00:34:11

and I was you know improving really

00:34:13

well. And then in 2018 the men's eight

00:34:16

uh that I was a part of uh got last at

00:34:18

the World Champs and that was like my I

00:34:20

was in my best physical condition I'd

00:34:22

ever been in. Strongest, fittest,

00:34:23

leanest, you know, everything was

00:34:25

covered and then I got dropped from the

00:34:27

team after that. And that decision, you

00:34:30

know, I been personally I've come to

00:34:32

terms with it but I think it was

00:34:34

marginal but you know what are you going

00:34:35

to do? Someone else makes a decision. um

00:34:38

and essentially got dropped from the

00:34:40

team and had to figure out um how to get

00:34:43

my way back. Essentially, there's no

00:34:44

option of not of quitting cuz was anyone

00:34:46

else dropped? Yeah. Yeah, there was like

00:34:48

a group of four of us from the team. Um

00:34:51

and yes, I kept I think I can't remember

00:34:54

exactly. I think it was four of us that

00:34:55

got dropped and we had to sort of

00:34:57

operate out of the the the regional

00:34:58

center down in Wetto and um and it was a

00:35:02

blow because I was like [ __ ] I'm in my

00:35:05

best condition and we did perform poorly

00:35:07

but I mean I and that was our

00:35:10

responsibility but it was a shared

00:35:11

responsibility amongst everybody and

00:35:13

they brought in a whole lot of younger

00:35:14

athletes that some of them you know have

00:35:16

had since gone very quickly into after

00:35:18

they joined the program and and there

00:35:21

was guys like me and some others that

00:35:23

really gritted it out and stayed and and

00:35:25

trained in outside of the building and

00:35:27

outside of the high performance program

00:35:28

down in Cambridge to really get our way

00:35:31

back in. And I sort of see that as sort

00:35:33

of my sort of one of the adversity arcs

00:35:36

that I sort of had to go through to

00:35:38

really learn who I am as a person. Like

00:35:42

being excluded from the team sort of

00:35:44

really brought back to that [ __ ] when I

00:35:45

was younger. I was like, man, I no one

00:35:47

values me anymore. Not not getting paid

00:35:49

to do what I need to do here. um

00:35:51

struggling financially and mentally and

00:35:54

and all of your selfworth is really

00:35:55

focused on how you row a boat and that's

00:35:58

kind of how it needs to be because

00:36:00

rowing is your livelihood and you want

00:36:02

to be really good at it. But yeah, um

00:36:05

from that point onwards, I I sort of

00:36:07

just trained like doggedly hard. Like

00:36:10

that first admittedly that first summer

00:36:12

that I was back um out of the team was a

00:36:15

little bit like finding my feet again

00:36:17

and then all those guys sort of left and

00:36:19

I was sort of training on my own through

00:36:20

the winter because I didn't make the the

00:36:22

trial team for the for the next stage.

00:36:25

So I had the whole winter essentially

00:36:26

just on my own and I was and some of the

00:36:29

younger athletes as well and I was just

00:36:30

on the URG and I was like okay I need to

00:36:31

get back to my peak fitness and I just

00:36:34

dug my toes in man. I was like I'm going

00:36:36

to do it and managed to get down within

00:36:39

half a second of my best ever 2K URG

00:36:41

time which was like really this was best

00:36:43

by miles not by miles but best by a long

00:36:45

way in the team and um by the end of

00:36:48

2019 I made it back into the New Zealand

00:36:51

summer squad for the Tokyo selection

00:36:54

squad. um which was incredible moment

00:36:56

for me because I was like I did it on my

00:36:59

own back and with a lot of help from

00:37:01

incredible people in the in the regional

00:37:03

system but I managed to do it without

00:37:05

the help of them and I had this such

00:37:06

pride in what I'd done um and then

00:37:10

obviously not getting selected for the

00:37:11

and then co came through co was just

00:37:14

like that massive I mean people Oh yeah

00:37:16

the Olympics the Tokyo Olympics were

00:37:17

delayed a year so yeah so so you were um

00:37:20

trying to make the um the rowing aid

00:37:22

squad for the the Tokyo Olympics

00:37:24

Um, how how close were you? Yeah, I was

00:37:27

like I was the first reserve. I was like

00:37:28

that was the essentially there's four

00:37:30

guys on each side in the eight and I was

00:37:32

the first bowider out of the boat and it

00:37:34

was like quite it was quite tight

00:37:36

between us. So it was like I need to and

00:37:38

I felt like I was on a roll and I was

00:37:40

rowing the boat quite well and I was

00:37:41

really aware of what I was doing. I was

00:37:42

on top of my [ __ ] and and I was ready to

00:37:45

keep pushing like in the national champs

00:37:47

me and Michael break my very good

00:37:48

friends um we had a really good race and

00:37:50

we I think we got third in the men's

00:37:52

premier pair at nationals. So it's top

00:37:54

six um where I was in the country at

00:37:56

that point. So, and but even then at

00:37:59

that point I still didn't feel like I

00:38:00

was good. Like I still had this, you

00:38:03

know, thing thing this this perception

00:38:04

and this identity that I was just this

00:38:06

big guy, cumbersome, hard to row with,

00:38:08

big but couldn't put on the water, you

00:38:10

know. Um,

00:38:12

was it just a story you were telling

00:38:14

yourself based on fact? I think there

00:38:17

was definitely a fact to it. There was a

00:38:19

huge bit missing that I didn't really of

00:38:21

of my rowing stroke. That's getting to

00:38:23

quite the nitty-gritty of the rowing

00:38:24

details, but essentially what it was

00:38:26

that there was some key parts of my

00:38:28

stroke that I never really learned

00:38:29

properly as a kid and I had to then

00:38:32

after the Tokyo campaign was uh was

00:38:35

obviously co came through, we tried to

00:38:37

figure out how to make that work. Didn't

00:38:39

make the Tokyo team, which is a huge

00:38:40

blow, but also I understood like I was

00:38:42

like, "Yeah, I'm just not good enough."

00:38:44

And I wasn't I'm not the guy that they

00:38:45

need for the team. Um, and I had to

00:38:48

relearn essentially relearn how to row

00:38:50

after that because I knew that there was

00:38:52

some a really important part of my

00:38:54

stroke that that that was missing. So I

00:38:57

had to essentially like tear all the old

00:38:59

bark off the tree bit by bit. And there

00:39:01

was some coaches down in Cambridge that

00:39:03

really helped me do that and really

00:39:05

patient with me cuz I wasn't

00:39:06

particularly um I wasn't particularly

00:39:09

positive. I was positive but it was hard

00:39:12

process and I got upset a lot because I

00:39:15

knew that I needed to do it and it

00:39:16

wasn't happening in the time frame I

00:39:17

needed it to. So I had to relearn my

00:39:19

stroke bit by bit and I guess the reason

00:39:22

that I ended up retiring because um I

00:39:25

actually got asked to leave.

00:39:28

Funny thing I was saying I was just so I

00:39:30

was so stubborn and I was just I was

00:39:33

continuing cuz I knew I could do it. I

00:39:35

could rebuild my stroke and I could get

00:39:36

there. I knew I could, but it was just

00:39:38

taking [ __ ] ages and it just and I

00:39:41

was just fighting because I mean like

00:39:42

you think about like with your running,

00:39:43

you've got a a certain technique that

00:39:45

you naturally do and then you've got the

00:39:47

ideal and you sort of like like you're

00:39:51

never the ideal because you're always

00:39:52

got some, you know, some things with

00:39:54

your biomechanics or whatever that don't

00:39:55

work with the ideal technique. And I was

00:39:58

constantly getting into hard situations

00:40:00

and it would just trip over back into my

00:40:02

habits because there was there was like

00:40:04

10 years of competitive rowing in this

00:40:07

one type of the way of doing it. And um

00:40:10

yeah, I um I just never quite like I

00:40:14

summited that mountain. I guess makes

00:40:16

perfect sense. Yeah. Like to use the

00:40:18

running analogy like if um when I'm

00:40:20

feeling fresh like my my arms will be

00:40:21

swinging down by my side, my shoulders

00:40:23

will be back. Um, as soon as you get in

00:40:25

in pain or discomfort, you I'm hunched

00:40:27

over. My arms are up high, clinched

00:40:30

fists. Exactly. And it's it's not

00:40:32

helpful sometimes, but it's just what

00:40:34

the the neuromuscular pathways. I went

00:40:36

right down the rabbit hole, man. Went to

00:40:38

do like some sort of neuromuscular like

00:40:39

Pilates and I was figuring out with some

00:40:41

I was crazy. You're you're a determined

00:40:43

[ __ ] aren't you? Yeah. If I don't

00:40:44

stubborn. Yes. Yeah. Stubborn, I guess.

00:40:47

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm a reasonable

00:40:48

dude though, but stubborn. Yeah. Um

00:40:51

Yeah. your friend Michael Break, he said

00:40:53

um this is a quote, "Cam is a hammer.

00:40:55

Power is his thing. Finesse not so

00:40:57

much." Yeah. I think that's talking

00:40:59

about your rowing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:41:00

that's It still hurts to hear that. I'll

00:41:04

be honest. I tried to do the finesse

00:41:06

thing, but I just I just I I just

00:41:08

couldn't figure it out. And I think

00:41:10

that's just um accepting that just it's

00:41:13

all good because there was a sport right

00:41:15

around the corner that rewarded every

00:41:18

bit of my my my strength. Yeah.

00:41:28

that that path of trying to figure it

00:41:30

out was so helpful for me cuz like man

00:41:32

what I learned about myself and and

00:41:34

everything in the process was

00:41:35

ridiculous. Like I was constantly

00:41:37

confronted with my inadequacies every

00:41:39

day. I'd wake up in the morning go a

00:41:41

[ __ ] how am I going to do this? My first

00:41:43

summer squad year I'd see the program

00:41:44

and I'd go, "Holy shit." Turn up to

00:41:47

training completely bugged. like you'd

00:41:50

turn up to training bugget and you'd

00:41:51

have like a 30k row to do and weights in

00:41:53

the afternoon and it I just didn't know

00:41:56

how I was going to do it and that was it

00:41:58

was like that for years and especially

00:42:00

towards the end it was more a mental

00:42:02

struggle at the end because I knew I had

00:42:03

to like go out in the water and and see

00:42:06

if I could actually rebuild my stroke

00:42:09

still and see if I could do it. And I

00:42:10

and I knew I was failing. That's the

00:42:12

thing. I knew I wasn't doing well at it

00:42:14

because I'd get halfway through a

00:42:15

session, I'd just fall right out the

00:42:16

back and I'd go, "I just" It was It was

00:42:19

ever present to me and I was never blind

00:42:21

to it. So, yeah, it's freaking

00:42:24

heartbreaking. Yeah, it is. It was. But

00:42:26

I don't know like

00:42:28

Yeah. No, it is. It's heartbreaking.

00:42:32

Like, you want something so bad. You're

00:42:34

doing everything that's asked of you.

00:42:35

Like, you're ticking all the boxes and

00:42:37

it's just not How How do they tell you

00:42:39

that you've you've missed out on the

00:42:40

Olympics? Oh yes. Is that a delicate

00:42:43

conversation or is it fairly I think the

00:42:45

communication has never been wrong New

00:42:48

Zealand's strength. I guess it's getting

00:42:50

better from what I've heard. Um but um I

00:42:54

guess it was um yeah it was always hard

00:42:57

but you knew I knew every time like it

00:43:00

was it was riding cuz we'd do seat

00:43:01

racing. We'd go out there and do a

00:43:04

week's worth of racing 1500 m maximum

00:43:07

effort. would do six at least six of

00:43:09

them a day, sometimes eight or nine and

00:43:11

that's 15 5 minute maximum efforts and

00:43:14

that's over that you do that for 5 days

00:43:16

in a row and then do a 2k race at the

00:43:18

end of that. So that's like that's the

00:43:20

sort of [ __ ] you do at rowing to get to

00:43:22

figure out if you got on the team and

00:43:23

you sort of knew the pecking order after

00:43:25

a after a week like that and so the

00:43:28

decision was never really a surprise.

00:43:31

Yeah. So I mean it's

00:43:34

Yeah. So, it's based it's based just on

00:43:37

um performance because I I think you'd

00:43:39

be a good guy to have around our team

00:43:40

environment from from what I can gather

00:43:42

from what I learned about you. So, you

00:43:44

think, well, he's not necessarily the

00:43:47

best rower, but he's, you know, great

00:43:48

for team morale and great for

00:43:50

positivity. I think that's what I and

00:43:52

the other thing is is that I was still

00:43:54

within the top top 10 best rowers in the

00:43:58

country at that point and this was one

00:44:00

of the strongest areas of rowing ever in

00:44:02

New Zealand. So like for me to say I

00:44:03

wasn't a good rower is actually just my

00:44:05

perception of it. The reality of the

00:44:07

situation I was actually very very good

00:44:08

at it which has taken a long time for me

00:44:10

to actually feel okay saying and feeling

00:44:12

okay to to to own that cuz I was good

00:44:15

but I just wasn't as good as my best

00:44:17

friends which were Olympic gold

00:44:19

medalists you know. Yeah. How does that

00:44:24

feel? So yeah so one of your best mates

00:44:25

Michael Break he's he's a gold medalist

00:44:27

as part of that rowing eight which you

00:44:29

just missed out on. M

00:44:32

how how's watching those Olympics? Oh

00:44:33

[ __ ] it was it was crazy, man. It was

00:44:36

cuz it was at the cloud. All the racing

00:44:38

was was was broadcast at the cloud and

00:44:40

rowing had this like pretty big sort of

00:44:42

pop-up thing at the cloud. And there was

00:44:45

the big philanthropic donor, this guy

00:44:47

Sean Kan, who's a a really cool

00:44:50

eccentric American guy who um was

00:44:52

funding a lot of the AIDS programs at

00:44:54

that point, the women's and men's AIDS

00:44:55

program. I I became friendly with him

00:44:57

and I was there standing at the top of

00:45:00

this um like sort of the the seats

00:45:03

watching the eight and I was actually at

00:45:06

Sean Kirk himself. So just want to say

00:45:08

that like the guys in that eight are

00:45:10

some of my best friends like Tom

00:45:11

Macintosh, Shawn Kirk and Michael Break

00:45:14

like Tom Murray like it's it's like Matt

00:45:16

McDonald like those guys are some of

00:45:18

like the most incredible people I know

00:45:20

like they're just Yeah.

00:45:24

Oh, here we go. My my friends are some

00:45:26

of the most amazing people and

00:45:32

that's that's Yeah, it's pretty cool.

00:45:37

Yeah. So So yeah. Yeah, but it must must

00:45:40

be mixed emotions like

00:45:42

that's that's why I'm sort of getting

00:45:43

there. like we're sitting up in that in

00:45:45

the top of that um those sort of grand

00:45:47

stands like watching the race and I just

00:45:49

like see them start and I knew though I

00:45:51

knew the boat felt really good cuz I

00:45:52

raced and trained in that boat quite a

00:45:54

bit and I just I fell off before the

00:45:58

trial and then post trial I'd never I

00:46:00

didn't owe the boat but you I sort of

00:46:01

felt what they were trying to do in

00:46:02

terms of rhythm and technique cuz in

00:46:04

rowing there's sort of this like all

00:46:06

there's eight people and you have to get

00:46:07

them on one particular way of doing it

00:46:09

and you have to first of all you got to

00:46:11

get buy in of all the people wanting to

00:46:13

do it a certain way and believing that's

00:46:14

the right way to do it. That's the

00:46:16

hardest way to the hardest thing to do.

00:46:17

Cool thing is they had Hamish Bond like

00:46:19

one of the best rowers ever in the

00:46:21

world. Savage legend. Um people say

00:46:25

don't make your heroes. I'm really

00:46:26

really glad I've gotten to know him.

00:46:28

Just as I want to say that he's an

00:46:29

incredible guy and an awesome person to

00:46:31

learn from. Um and to be a pair with him

00:46:34

at Team New Zealand was so amazing. Um

00:46:36

he's also like the most random dude

00:46:38

ever, but he's great. Um um he he he

00:46:42

deserves all the success he gets in

00:46:43

life. He had to share a boat with Eric

00:46:45

Murray for like 10 years. I know. I

00:46:47

know. Um but yeah, I was up there

00:46:49

watching this this men's eight race and

00:46:50

you see them come out the start and

00:46:52

they've just got this this huge rhythm.

00:46:54

You can see when you've watching for a

00:46:56

long time, you can see the a boat that's

00:46:58

really being bold and like really giving

00:47:00

it a a lot of pressure, a lot of

00:47:03

intensity, but then letting the boat run

00:47:04

a shitload. And those guys essentially

00:47:07

perfected that. And they called it um I

00:47:09

think they called it the the the is it

00:47:11

the BD

00:47:13

essentially was a big dick rhythm. They

00:47:15

just wanted to lay it out there. I know.

00:47:17

Um

00:47:19

I know. And but that that that's what it

00:47:21

was. And you could see them rowing like

00:47:22

that. And they came through the they

00:47:24

came out the start and they were like

00:47:25

level pegging with everybody. And that's

00:47:27

like oh okay. Usually the men's like New

00:47:29

Zealand men's like haven't been

00:47:30

particularly good at that um in the past

00:47:33

and then they got through the thousand

00:47:34

meters and this is sort of like crunch

00:47:37

time at a rowing race and this is where

00:47:39

you can sort of see who's got who's

00:47:40

who's really got the the race by the by

00:47:43

the scruff and they about I think it was

00:47:45

like 1100 or 1250 m gone they just did

00:47:48

this big move and they just took like a

00:47:50

seat or two and that's essentially like

00:47:53

you know like 2 meters two or three oh

00:47:55

two or three meters And I was just

00:47:58

sitting in the in this grand stands. I

00:47:59

was like, "Fuck, these guys are going to

00:48:01

win." Like they're just going to win. I

00:48:03

was sitting there with Sean who was, you

00:48:04

know, like funding the program. We were

00:48:06

just sitting there like, "Oh my god."

00:48:07

And everyone in the crowd is just like

00:48:08

absolutely just electric. Like we're

00:48:11

sitting there watching. Like the last

00:48:12

time New Zealand men's 8 won gold was in

00:48:14

1972, like 50 years earlier. Like and

00:48:17

and they won in convincing fashion. They

00:48:19

were out in front the whole time.

00:48:20

Whereas this race was some a bit more of

00:48:22

a nailbiter. And Germany had been this

00:48:24

like dominant force forever. like every

00:48:26

single world champs, they were the they

00:48:28

were the gold standard and our boys just

00:48:30

went out there and just laid it out and

00:48:32

it was it was incredible to watch. And

00:48:35

then you come through the last sort of

00:48:36

300 m and everyone's just in tears and

00:48:38

everyone's just going, "I cannot believe

00:48:40

this is happening." And then you come so

00:48:42

250 m to go, I see there's a close-up

00:48:45

shot of Hamish and he's just like starts

00:48:47

yelling and he's just swinging on it and

00:48:50

he's right down the back of the boat.

00:48:51

everyone in front of him can hear him

00:48:52

and they just take off again and then by

00:48:55

that point they've got enough margin and

00:48:56

they just come through the line about I

00:48:58

don't know a third of a boat length

00:49:00

ahead and like watching them do that was

00:49:03

like that's my dream that was my dream

00:49:08

and I want and so there was like this it

00:49:10

was this jealousy there was this you

00:49:12

know this this like this envy but then

00:49:14

almost this huge amount of pride because

00:49:16

I've [ __ ] I've gone there with those

00:49:18

guys like I was a part of that program

00:49:20

for five years before that in the elite

00:49:23

program really like you know I know

00:49:25

these guys as good as anyone else would

00:49:28

and they're such that and and to see

00:49:30

them do that was just it just gave me so

00:49:33

much satisfaction but then also I was

00:49:34

just like [ __ ] damn it

00:49:38

I didn't get to do it so so you leave

00:49:40

the cloud you hop back in your car no we

00:49:42

got hammered that man we got hacked yeah

00:49:45

yeah yeah there was champagne bottles

00:49:46

flowing around and we just um yeah we

00:49:49

But yeah, it was a it was a big

00:49:51

celebration that night. I I think that's

00:49:54

um that's a really good um explanation.

00:49:57

It's a a crazy position to be in cuz

00:49:59

obviously you're happy for them because

00:50:01

they're your mates and you want them to

00:50:02

succeed, but um yeah, I can't imagine

00:50:04

the severity of the FOMO. Huge.

00:50:08

Absolutely huge. And um I don't know.

00:50:12

But then I I realized real early on when

00:50:15

I was younger that you get so much more

00:50:18

benefit and and personal like positivity

00:50:21

that comes out of celebrating other

00:50:23

people's success than being envious of

00:50:25

them. Envy is like a cancer, man. It

00:50:28

just like it only it only ruins your own

00:50:30

experience because you just get you just

00:50:32

like you just you're all jealous and

00:50:34

it's just so yuck. Yeah. And I I

00:50:37

realized I think there's one moment in

00:50:39

under 23s where one of the other girls

00:50:42

I'd done really well or I think they had

00:50:43

raced before us or something. I can't

00:50:45

remember. And I had a choice and I

00:50:48

thought to myself, I'm either going to

00:50:49

congratulate them and be really happy

00:50:50

for them or I'm not cuz I hadn't really

00:50:52

I was figuring [ __ ] out at this point.

00:50:54

And I went up to her, gave her a massive

00:50:56

hug. I was like, that was such an

00:50:56

awesome performance. You guys did so

00:50:58

great. And I just had this flood of of

00:51:01

of this like this like euphoric flood of

00:51:03

emotions. I was like, I'm never being

00:51:05

envious ever again cuz it's going to

00:51:06

kill me if I do. I'd never really done

00:51:09

it in the past, but it just reinforced

00:51:11

to me that that was the like 100% the

00:51:13

right way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And also

00:51:17

like as humans, we're born with like an

00:51:19

endless supply of compliments. E so just

00:51:21

like hand hand them out. Like it cost

00:51:24

like if you're scrolling on Instagram

00:51:25

and someone's done something something

00:51:27

good like write a comment. It takes

00:51:29

nothing. And I think there's not enough

00:51:31

um

00:51:33

credit where it's due I think is not

00:51:35

really given enough out and especially

00:51:37

New Zealand like you know like what

00:51:39

you've done with your podcast like you

00:51:40

what you've done with your career

00:51:41

incredible you've been a synonymous name

00:51:43

through radio and I have done this and

00:51:45

you've just excelled and it's like for

00:51:47

pe for people to actually comment and

00:51:49

say that I think is not common enough

00:51:52

and I love doing it. when someone's done

00:51:54

something really well, I'm like, "Hell

00:51:55

yeah." Like, "Good on you, bro. That is

00:51:57

so sick." Like, Michael the other day,

00:51:59

he called me up, Michael Bre called me

00:52:00

up and he's got this new job down in

00:52:02

Tonga. He's doing his um civil

00:52:03

engineering and he's working in this

00:52:04

sort of property development and that's

00:52:05

what he's wanted to do for ages. And I

00:52:07

was just like, "Yes, bro." He was

00:52:09

battling a bit for a while after rowing

00:52:11

and sort of figuring his stuff out. And,

00:52:13

you know, I could hear in his voice that

00:52:14

he was like really on his like path he

00:52:16

could start chewing away at. And and I

00:52:18

to see him do that, I'm just like I just

00:52:20

love it. Yeah. Yeah, you're such a

00:52:22

positive guy. That's interesting. Um,

00:52:24

just picking up on something you said

00:52:25

there about Michael battling after

00:52:27

rowing. So,

00:52:29

his his his um, you know, his career

00:52:31

ended with a cherry on top, right?

00:52:33

Olympic gold medal. Amazing. Job done.

00:52:35

Um, you you get asked to leave. That was

00:52:38

a fun conversation, man. Oh, it was, was

00:52:40

it? Yeah. Yeah. It was actually It was

00:52:42

actually quite nice. I had a really

00:52:43

really nice row in the morning in the

00:52:44

single. It was a really lovely morning.

00:52:46

Foggy, a little bit cold, like real flat

00:52:49

water. Beautiful. Had a really nice row.

00:52:51

Got into the thing. I was said, "Gary,

00:52:52

my coach was like, "Hey, can I come have

00:52:53

a chat with you?" I was like, "Oh,

00:52:55

you're good." I thought it was just a

00:52:56

debrief, whatever. And he was like,

00:52:57

"Cam, we're going to suggest you don't

00:52:59

we don't um you don't try for the next

00:53:01

World Champs." And I was like,

00:53:05

"H" and honestly, my first emotion was

00:53:09

sadness. My next emotion, very, very

00:53:12

quickly after was relief. I was [ __ ]

00:53:16

I was so tired mentally, emotionally,

00:53:20

physically, everything. I was done, but

00:53:23

I knew I could do it. So, I didn't want

00:53:25

to give up on it. But I knew Yeah. So,

00:53:28

it was like that stubbornness definitely

00:53:29

read its head at that moment. Yeah. And

00:53:31

they must have known you were never

00:53:33

going to make that call. Yeah, I think

00:53:34

so.

00:53:36

Cuz I'd never made it in the past. [ __ ]

00:53:38

That's a tough conversation though,

00:53:39

isn't it? Yeah. I think me and Gary

00:53:41

really hugged it out and we had a good

00:53:42

chat about it. So, I mean, ended ended

00:53:43

up I knew that it was you sort of feel

00:53:46

this stuff happening. If you're

00:53:47

completely blind to the reality of the

00:53:50

world, you might not see it. The writing

00:53:52

was on the wall. The writing was on the

00:53:54

wall, man. Like I was Yeah. Still,

00:53:56

that's rough. Who Who do you Who do you

00:53:58

call after that? Is that your parents or

00:54:00

sibling? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I sort of

00:54:01

came out to Oakuckland and I just sort

00:54:03

of I don't know what I called I think I

00:54:06

called my dad. Yeah, just the family.

00:54:09

just being around the family and just

00:54:10

parking off an inland back on the shore

00:54:11

and just, you know, getting the people

00:54:13

around, I think, was really was really

00:54:15

important. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's a big

00:54:17

big it's a big part of your life, like a

00:54:18

massive chapter that um has basically

00:54:21

been shut for you.

00:54:23

Glad about it, to be honest. No, no, but

00:54:26

back to like your your good mate

00:54:27

Michael. So, it's like he finished with

00:54:28

a gold medal and then it's like then he

00:54:31

he's got that awkward thing where, you

00:54:32

know, you're leaving this chapter of

00:54:34

your life and you're discovering what's

00:54:35

next. But, you know, at least he got to

00:54:36

sort of end on his own terms. Yeah.

00:54:38

Yeah, I guess. So, how was how was your

00:54:40

like mental health over that time? Oh,

00:54:42

pretty [ __ ] Eh, yeah. Yeah, there's a

00:54:44

lot of um I just lost all my confidence

00:54:47

like you sort of you've met me now. Like

00:54:49

I'm pretty outgoing, pretty bubbly and

00:54:50

I've always been like that, but I guess

00:54:52

my my own internal sense of confidence

00:54:54

was really compromised. Um from at least

00:54:57

that 2018 point onwards, I was really

00:54:59

sort of my selfworth was completely tied

00:55:03

up in how I rode a boat. And it wasn't

00:55:06

about who I was as a person, what I was

00:55:08

learning in the process, what athlete,

00:55:10

what type of athlete I was. I was also

00:55:12

trying really hard to be good at all

00:55:13

that other stuff. So that maybe that was

00:55:15

influencing my selection decisions.

00:55:18

And also I had a really positive

00:55:20

reaction to every single like supportive

00:55:22

sort of morale element I was adding to a

00:55:24

team environment. So I was like, "Hell

00:55:26

yeah, let's do it." It was natural to

00:55:27

me, too.

00:55:29

But I was incredibly mentally drained.

00:55:32

Yeah. And just confidence was low. Um,

00:55:36

yeah, it was it was pretty Yeah, it was

00:55:38

pretty it was pretty sad. I mean, like

00:55:41

just for context, I wasn't in any kind

00:55:44

of really compromising mental position,

00:55:46

but I felt [ __ ] about who I was, you

00:55:48

know, and, you know, I wasn't in poverty

00:55:50

and I wasn't in all these horrible, you

00:55:52

know, circumstances that so many other

00:55:54

people are in. But subjectively, I felt

00:55:56

[ __ ] about my circumstance. I was still

00:55:57

very lucky, feel very privileged in so

00:55:59

many aspects of my life, but so many

00:56:02

those main parts were were really hard.

00:56:05

Yeah. I Yeah. I just can't begin to

00:56:06

imagine how lost you would have felt.

00:56:07

And also just wondering what life's I

00:56:10

mean it's worth pointing out at this

00:56:11

time. So you were sort of in your

00:56:12

Cambridge based and you're in that whole

00:56:14

sort of high performance bubble like uh

00:56:17

you're in lockdown with Michael Michael

00:56:19

and Olivia Podmore. Yes. Yeah. The late

00:56:21

cyclist and um yeah hanging out with

00:56:23

Eric Murray like Yeah. You introduced

00:56:26

Liv to Eric and they became like best

00:56:28

mates. Yeah. Yeah. So I was um so Liv

00:56:31

was living with with Mike and Andy at

00:56:34

that point over in other side of

00:56:35

Cambridge and we did co together.

00:56:38

So I got to know live quite well during

00:56:39

that and um yeah just tragedy on that

00:56:42

front firstly. Um yeah for sure it's

00:56:46

just shocked everybody you know. Um, she

00:56:48

was definitely sad and you could tell. I

00:56:50

had a conversation with her at the

00:56:52

Veladrome one day where she had, you

00:56:54

know, had some sadness with Mike and

00:56:56

her, you know, current partner at the

00:56:58

time. And it was she was just in this

00:56:59

hysterical state of of um, I don't know,

00:57:02

indecision and stress. And I just I

00:57:05

didn't know what to say to her. I was

00:57:07

like, I like I mean, you just got to put

00:57:09

out an olive branch. If you feel like

00:57:11

you want to say sorry about something,

00:57:12

you just got to put out an olive branch.

00:57:14

And that was sort of one of the last

00:57:15

proper chats I had with her. And um

00:57:18

yeah, just the the effect that that has

00:57:20

had on the environment I think is um is

00:57:24

huge. And I think

00:57:27

I think there's still some lessons that

00:57:29

um that sort of the

00:57:32

higherups could learn from that and

00:57:34

maybe it hasn't shocked the system

00:57:36

enough of what it should have. Um not

00:57:39

that it was it should never have

00:57:40

happened in the first place and but I

00:57:44

mean yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just a it's

00:57:46

a [ __ ] horrible thing. Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:48

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Um

00:57:49

yeah, Joseph Sullivan, I had him on the

00:57:51

podcast a couple of years ago and yeah,

00:57:52

he he he talked about the callousness of

00:57:55

the way he was dumped. Oh yeah. And then

00:57:57

he felt lost for a while and then he

00:57:58

sort of um you found the New Zealand

00:58:00

fire service which I guess for you as

00:58:02

team New Zealand. But um yeah. How did

00:58:05

you find um like the duty of care from

00:58:07

you know rowing New Zealand or high

00:58:09

performance New Zealand? I think okay.

00:58:10

Yeah. I mean rowing New Zealand does

00:58:12

their best with what they've got

00:58:14

essentially. I mean, I've I've there's a

00:58:17

there's a group of um athletes that

00:58:19

joined uh um it's called the athletes

00:58:22

cooperative. Essentially, it's a it's a

00:58:24

union, trade union that was set up to to

00:58:26

challenge the working conditions of of

00:58:28

of athletes in the high performance

00:58:30

system. And the there was a group of

00:58:32

cyclists and rowers that were sort of

00:58:34

aligning with um the guys from um

00:58:37

athletes federation. So they ran the the

00:58:40

um the union that was set up to make

00:58:43

rugby a professional sport back in the

00:58:45

2000s. So like guys like Rob Nickel and

00:58:48

Roger Mortimer and and and they and they

00:58:51

were real really pivotal in sort of

00:58:53

highlighting highlighting to us the

00:58:55

environment that we're in and the fact

00:58:57

that it is not okay. the way that the

00:59:00

way that things are done in that

00:59:02

environment needs to change and the only

00:59:04

way it's going to change is if we take

00:59:05

some action and we um and we really grab

00:59:09

the bull by the horns and we have done

00:59:11

that and it's a long process and there's

00:59:12

some really incredible people working

00:59:13

incredibly hard um to uh to try to

00:59:17

change things and you know you just get

00:59:20

met with this big no hand when you when

00:59:22

you go to high performance sport and you

00:59:24

get and it's just it's just sad really

00:59:26

because

00:59:29

I'm careful what I say here, but like

00:59:32

like cuz I got so much benefit from

00:59:34

being in that system. So, it's kind of

00:59:35

it's it's I've got to tread a knife edge

00:59:37

here because I got so much benefit, you

00:59:40

know, sports, psych, physio, you know,

00:59:43

supplements, like throw the, you know,

00:59:45

all these things handed to us as young

00:59:48

athletes, which was incredible. And the

00:59:49

services that we got were incredible.

00:59:51

But as time goes on, you realize that it

00:59:54

is a bit of exploitation and the the

00:59:57

system does need to change. And the only

00:59:59

way that happens is if you stand up and

01:00:01

you and you take responsibility and you

01:00:03

try and level the the power dynamic.

01:00:05

It's a it's a it's a paternal power

01:00:07

dynamic and it's things are determined

01:00:08

by a high performance sport. And then it

01:00:10

flows down to every NSO and the athletes

01:00:12

and you're kind of you're stuck within

01:00:14

this concrete box of opportunity and and

01:00:17

without any kind of taking

01:00:18

responsibility that the athletes can do

01:00:20

that you're just stuck there. So that's

01:00:22

essentially what we're trying to do. I

01:00:24

think that's really well articulated.

01:00:26

Makes makes perfect sense. Thought about

01:00:28

it a lot. I've had a lot of angry

01:00:30

discussions with people who who like why

01:00:32

are you doing that? I'm like I just get

01:00:34

my eyes go wide like this. I'm like you

01:00:35

don't know what it's like. Yeah. Know

01:00:38

what you're saying makes perfect sense.

01:00:39

So it's like if you're if you're on if

01:00:41

you're in good, you're very well looked

01:00:43

after, but as soon as as soon as you're

01:00:44

out, you're out in the cold. Yeah. Well,

01:00:46

if you're like on the fringe cuz I was a

01:00:47

fringe athlete like I was I was that one

01:00:49

who was kind of on the edge of the

01:00:50

decisions of of the selections and

01:00:52

there's so many people like me, you

01:00:55

know, there's and probably majority of

01:00:56

the people like there's only so many

01:00:57

Hish and Erics and you know and Twigs

01:01:00

and and EverWendells and Robells and

01:01:02

men's eights. there's a limited number

01:01:03

of people and there's so many people on

01:01:05

the other side of that and even like

01:01:06

someone like Joe who was on the top side

01:01:08

of that and then got you know thrown

01:01:10

out. So yeah, it's um it's a pretty

01:01:13

brutal environment but I mean again I

01:01:16

learned so much about myself and what I

01:01:18

can do better and how I can be good. So

01:01:20

yeah, that's a hindsight thing though,

01:01:22

isn't it? That's a hindsight thing. In

01:01:23

the moment I did know what was going on.

01:01:25

I thought I knew to myself in the last

01:01:27

especially only in the last couple years

01:01:28

really. I was like, "This is [ __ ]

01:01:31

hard." And I know it's hard, but I know

01:01:34

I'm getting a lot of benefit out of

01:01:36

this, so I'm just going to keep going.

01:01:38

So, when when you when anyone young or

01:01:40

you know, someone's asked me about what

01:01:42

they should do with their sport, I go,

01:01:44

"Well, I can't really give you advice. I

01:01:46

can tell you what my experience was." I

01:01:48

didn't really want to do it for the last

01:01:50

couple years. So, what I said to them

01:01:51

was like, "Do it until you don't want to

01:01:53

do it anymore and then give it a year

01:01:56

because things can change. You know,

01:01:59

every athlete who's had gotten a gold

01:02:00

medal or succeeded has had a huge up and

01:02:03

downs. They've gone and done really well

01:02:05

and then they've had this period of

01:02:06

adversity, then they bounce back up

01:02:07

again. So, you kind of have to ride

01:02:10

those difficulties out in order to see

01:02:12

the potential that comes out of it.

01:02:14

Yeah.

01:02:17

How did you come ride again after that?

01:02:18

I joined Team New Zealand, man. Like a

01:02:21

[ __ ] life raft, man. From one boat to

01:02:23

another. Honestly, it saved me. No.

01:02:25

Yeah. Was it like an immediate jump from

01:02:27

um you know from from rowing to yaching

01:02:30

or was like six months. There was about

01:02:33

6 months between Yes. What did that six

01:02:34

months look like? I was up here two days

01:02:36

a week from from Cambridge. Um and I was

01:02:39

studying staying at home with mom and

01:02:40

dad. So you're keeping active. Yeah.

01:02:42

Yeah. Yeah. So I was I was and I was

01:02:44

also training a little bit. Like I was I

01:02:46

was actually just doing what I wanted to

01:02:48

do training wise. So, I was going to the

01:02:49

gym at uni and I was cuz you get to an

01:02:51

end of a really like content heavy law

01:02:53

day of at uni and you just like want to

01:02:56

smack your head against the wall because

01:02:57

you got so much of this git in your head

01:02:59

and you're like I just want to go just

01:03:02

blow out some endorphins. So, I I just

01:03:05

go to the gym and just be a brute um for

01:03:07

for an hour or so. But then I sort of

01:03:09

got was more in touch with Kim um SNC

01:03:13

and at Team New Zealand and I was like,

01:03:14

"Okay, I need to start really getting

01:03:16

stuck in here." And I got uh one of my

01:03:18

old flat mates who was down in

01:03:20

Cambridge. He was a sports physiologist

01:03:22

for the New Zealand men's track cycling

01:03:25

team for the team pursuit. Um, so he was

01:03:28

incredible and he wrote me a program and

01:03:30

I did I followed his program to a tea

01:03:32

for like I don't know three months I

01:03:35

think three three or four months and I

01:03:38

turned up to the trial on pretty good

01:03:40

physical condition and yeah there was

01:03:43

the four tests that we had to do for the

01:03:45

team and managed to come out on the top

01:03:47

I don't know I think it was top five or

01:03:48

something um at least within the top

01:03:51

nine cuz that's who got into the team. I

01:03:54

don't really know where I sat but um

01:03:56

yeah managed to to make the team and

01:03:58

then you know from the start middle of

01:04:00

December I sort of was on the team New

01:04:02

Zealand path straight back into it. Um

01:04:05

yeah Blair Blair Chuke told me a story

01:04:07

about um the the te that I might have

01:04:10

the timeline wrong. Maybe you can fill

01:04:11

in some of the blanks here. Um but he

01:04:13

said he said you just had your head

01:04:14

down. You didn't really speak. Didn't

01:04:15

really say much to to anyone. Just sort

01:04:18

of kept to yourself. And then um after

01:04:19

one of the testing you let out a massive

01:04:21

like [ __ ] yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:23

Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit of my I mean

01:04:24

people that know me would know that

01:04:26

that's not uncommon for me to do when

01:04:27

I'm stoked with what I've done on a

01:04:29

test. I I don't hold back and but you

01:04:31

you were like completely like quiet and

01:04:33

just on your own because before a test

01:04:35

you just kind of like I was in a new

01:04:36

environment and I was like okay I need

01:04:38

to just you know feel it out and sort of

01:04:40

be a bit quiet and yeah. Hey boys, how

01:04:42

you doing? Good. Good. Um it was the

01:04:44

20-minute test that we did actually.

01:04:45

Funny story, that 20-minute test, I was

01:04:46

like, I was I was on some good numbers

01:04:49

and I felt good and through the halfway

01:04:51

and then I had obviously have your watch

01:04:52

on that has all of your training data

01:04:54

and your heart rate data on it and I

01:04:56

was, you know, cruising through halfway

01:04:57

and I was, you know, feeling good and I

01:04:58

was like, how am I actually on here?

01:04:59

Like this, you know, when you're on in a

01:05:01

race like you must feel it in some of

01:05:03

your running when you're like get

01:05:04

through the halfway like 10k, 11k mark

01:05:05

and you're like, I'm feeling pretty good

01:05:07

here. We can go for a nudge. Like when

01:05:08

you broke the 3h hour, you must have

01:05:09

been like I might be on here. Yeah.

01:05:11

Yeah. Completely. And you and you're

01:05:12

like I'm and you get this sort of like

01:05:14

this really good rush of endorphins.

01:05:15

You're like, "Shit, I'm going to do it."

01:05:17

Um and the last sort of

01:05:20

the last 5 minutes um I was I felt

01:05:24

really on and then I saw my watch cuz

01:05:26

connected to my phone on Bluetooth. So,

01:05:28

I saw like a message from Hamish Bond

01:05:30

come up and I was just like it was just

01:05:33

so serendipitous in these moments cuz I

01:05:35

was just like an idol that I've had

01:05:37

forever in my rowing is now like

01:05:39

becoming one of my potentially one of my

01:05:41

teammates with this team New Zealand

01:05:43

environment. He's just messaged me to

01:05:44

say some things and like I'm just in

01:05:46

this environment and I'm performing to

01:05:47

my best capability right now and I was

01:05:50

just like, "Holy [ __ ] this is so sick."

01:05:52

And I just buried myself. managed to do

01:05:55

a personal best on the 20-minute um FTP

01:05:58

test. Um and then when it was first, I

01:06:00

was like, "Fuck yeah." Just like smacked

01:06:02

the bike. Hell yeah. Like I think that

01:06:04

kind of Yeah. illustrated what I was

01:06:06

like from from then on to the boys.

01:06:08

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Came a

01:06:11

bit of a theme, I guess. Let's um Yeah.

01:06:12

The team New Zealand stuff. First of

01:06:13

all, um Grant Dalton is he's scary.

01:06:16

Yeah, he's definitely scary. Have you

01:06:18

What interactions have you had with him?

01:06:19

I've had some funny interactions with

01:06:21

Dalt. So, yeah. You know, he's a he's a

01:06:23

gruff dude, but man, he gives a [ __ ]

01:06:26

You can tell like he he's the beating

01:06:28

heart of Team New Zealand. Has been for

01:06:30

decades. I think of him as like the

01:06:31

spearhead arrow. Like you've got this

01:06:33

you've got this massive people behind,

01:06:35

but you have to have that pointy person

01:06:37

at the front that's going to just direct

01:06:38

the team. And he does that, man. He is

01:06:40

incredible at it. Like he was he is the

01:06:42

biggest advocate for the team that

01:06:44

you've ever seen. Like he's just

01:06:46

anything that anything the team just

01:06:48

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's make it

01:06:50

happen. He doesn't give a [ __ ] what

01:06:51

other people think of him and I just

01:06:53

love that. Yeah. And he's done all the

01:06:55

hustling for so many campaigns as well.

01:06:57

Yeah. It's incredible to watch really.

01:06:59

Do you do a grant impression? No, I

01:07:01

don't. I don't dare do adults

01:07:02

impressions.

01:07:04

No.

01:07:06

Oh, he hasn't got Yeah. Never really

01:07:08

quite slipped into that one. Yeah. Um

01:07:12

Oh, yeah. America's Cup reflection. So

01:07:14

So you're in you're in Barcelona for

01:07:16

months, which looked amazing. What

01:07:18

happens after that final race? Did you

01:07:21

get Louis Vuitton back? No. Nothing,

01:07:22

mate. Yeah, didn't get anything. No. Did

01:07:24

you go to any parties with like George

01:07:26

Clooney or anything? No. No. That's all

01:07:28

that's all um Shuki and um Pistol. They

01:07:30

they go to the Omega parties with the

01:07:32

boys. Um copy copy copy copy.

01:07:35

[Laughter]

01:07:37

You kid.

01:07:40

He's the best. Um no. Um yeah, we just

01:07:43

had a we just celebrated, man. It was

01:07:46

just a It was just an unadulterated

01:07:48

piss up and you just went out and just

01:07:51

and just celebrated. We had a a team

01:07:53

function the the the the day afterwards

01:07:56

as well and that was and that was real

01:07:57

special because you just got to the dust

01:07:59

was settling too. We were all quite hung

01:08:00

over but the day like the actual race

01:08:03

was was pretty it was pretty incredible.

01:08:06

[Music]

01:08:07

Yeah. I saw an Instagram post um from

01:08:09

you. So this is um 6 months after

01:08:10

joining team New Zealand. Um, not going

01:08:13

to lie, it's been a long time since I've

01:08:15

felt genuinely excited about what's

01:08:16

going on in life. Yeah. And to say I've

01:08:18

been excited lately is is an

01:08:20

understatement. So grateful to be part

01:08:21

of this team and for the opportunities I

01:08:23

have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Straight away

01:08:27

you found you it's like you were kicked

01:08:29

out of this um this tribe for lack of a

01:08:32

better ter. And then straight away like

01:08:33

you you fell into another one. Yeah.

01:08:35

Then like I would say this to everyone.

01:08:38

We had a um we had a team sort of

01:08:40

debrief with just the sailing team um

01:08:44

a couple days after the race the cup

01:08:46

finished and we all sort of said a

01:08:48

couple words and I essentially just said

01:08:49

to them I was like hey look like I know

01:08:52

I'm a lot. I know I'm this personality

01:08:54

that's, you know, overbearing at times

01:08:56

or whatever, but the way I felt about

01:08:58

the team is that they, as soon as I

01:09:01

turned up, they not only accepted me,

01:09:02

but celebrated me as a person and it

01:09:06

fixed me.

01:09:08

Yeah. I just Yeah.

01:09:12

Oh, bro, that's awesome. Yes.

01:09:15

It's like a life raft, man. I've told

01:09:17

everyone this, too. This is not uncommon

01:09:19

knowledge. Like,

01:09:21

those people are incredible.

01:09:24

And they just they they show sorry

01:09:28

they show appreciation in such an

01:09:30

interesting way like people talk about

01:09:32

like there's when you say they who do

01:09:34

you mean just the team in general and

01:09:35

sort of the closest sailing team and

01:09:36

just the like the sort of culture within

01:09:38

the team is very much it's show

01:09:41

appreciation and and uh and support with

01:09:44

your actions and not with your words and

01:09:47

for me that was the opposite of how I

01:09:49

ran my life. I was always very

01:09:50

supportive, you know, um, vocally

01:09:54

and um, and I sort of struggled a little

01:09:57

bit sometimes when push came to shove to

01:09:59

like really support people, you know,

01:10:00

and it was a bit of a, you know,

01:10:02

shortcoming of mine. I was like and when

01:10:04

I joined the team, I felt no expectation

01:10:06

to say the to say the thing to support

01:10:08

the person in the in the words way and

01:10:10

give them a hand your shoulder and be

01:10:11

like, I'm there for you. You know, it's

01:10:13

like but but I just noticed everywhere

01:10:16

they would everyone would do this stuff

01:10:17

for each other. It was the actions that

01:10:19

were done dayto day that you know that I

01:10:21

saw anyway from my perspective that

01:10:23

people like people just devoted

01:10:25

themselves to the to the better of the

01:10:26

team and it was just it was inspiring to

01:10:29

to to be a part of. M it's so cool to

01:10:32

hear that because um yeah it feels like

01:10:35

you guys the Cyclones are like workh

01:10:36

horses you know you just head down just

01:10:41

grind grinding away yeah know we are

01:10:44

it's but I mean we love it man like we

01:10:48

get on the what bike and you know just

01:10:50

work you know just get stuck in get

01:10:52

sweaty get tired like I definitely got I

01:10:55

was definitely pretty knackered by the

01:10:57

end of the campaign just because I'd

01:10:58

been you know training like that for a

01:11:01

long time and and I was just I was

01:11:03

pretty over I get into some of those

01:11:05

harder sessions like you know 20 times 1

01:11:07

minute on 1 minute off at some like you

01:11:09

know 600 550 600 watts on the W bike and

01:11:14

god it's confronting especially at like

01:11:16

7:00 in the morning you just wake up and

01:11:19

you get there you're like you know and

01:11:20

I' I'd commute most of the times from

01:11:22

Green Height into town um on my on my

01:11:25

bike so I'd cycle into work and then we

01:11:27

get on the bike and and

01:11:29

[ __ ] and I just at times I just go [ __ ]

01:11:32

man I'm buggered and I'm just I just

01:11:35

don't want to be doing this. Me

01:11:37

meanwhile Blair and Pete what are they

01:11:38

doing? They're playing touch rugby park.

01:11:41

They do play like there is a sort of

01:11:43

team touch on Thursday mornings which we

01:11:45

never got to be a part of but like those

01:11:47

guys are relentless man like the amount

01:11:49

of meetings the amount of like data the

01:11:51

amount of analysis that goes on in that

01:11:53

place and it's directly like from

01:11:55

sailors to designers they have so many

01:11:58

meetings that constantly outline what

01:12:00

was done what was the changes what did

01:12:02

we feel what can we do better next time

01:12:04

and like that's just my perception of

01:12:05

what happened I've never really been a

01:12:06

part of the meetings but it's just the

01:12:09

amount of development that's constantly

01:12:10

happening and the like the hunger to

01:12:12

make it better and better and better

01:12:13

constantly. Like the boat was being

01:12:15

developed right up to the very end like

01:12:17

some sales, some changes, some tweaks,

01:12:19

you know, there's never any complacency,

01:12:21

which is really like to say I learned

01:12:24

like what excellence looks like um and

01:12:27

in a life situation was an

01:12:28

understatement. I saw it every day. I

01:12:30

had a really confronting conversation

01:12:31

with someone once over in Barcelona

01:12:34

cuz we were building this weird like it

01:12:36

it was like a a spray booth extraction

01:12:39

air extraction booth and it was

01:12:41

essentially for like the spraying parts

01:12:44

or like um grinding some carbon stuff

01:12:46

and we had to build this like carbon

01:12:47

system this plywood box essentially and

01:12:50

we were making it look all nice and it

01:12:52

was getting covered in bog and like

01:12:54

getting painted and really like finished

01:12:56

really nicely and I sort of made an

01:12:58

off-hand comment and sort of

01:12:59

Oh, like do we need to do this? Like

01:13:01

does it need to be this nice? And this

01:13:03

dude who's a notorious um James Graham

01:13:06

who's notorious for being like just like

01:13:10

says exactly what he thinks. He said,

01:13:12

"That's exactly why you'll never get

01:13:13

it." And I was like, "Fuck."

01:13:16

I was like, "Holy shit." And I was like

01:13:18

I it put me on my ass, man. I was like,

01:13:20

"Okay." I just I just pulled my head in

01:13:22

that day. I was like I was really

01:13:24

introspective. I was like, "Whoa, what

01:13:25

was that about?" And then I over the

01:13:27

next couple days I sort of realized I

01:13:29

was like that's what excellence looks

01:13:30

like. It's doing the thing to that

01:13:33

standard even when it doesn't seem

01:13:34

necessary because when you do the little

01:13:36

jobs like that really well it just it

01:13:39

actually the rest of it just takes care

01:13:40

of itself. You don't even have to think

01:13:42

about doing anything with the big jobs

01:13:44

with excellence because it's already

01:13:45

happening at the small detail level.

01:13:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Not not cutting

01:13:50

corners at any step of the way. Yeah.

01:13:51

and seeing it in practice cuz I think

01:13:54

it's hard to like justify it in your own

01:13:56

life until you've seen the evidence of

01:13:57

it. Yeah. Did um I I had uh Dr. Nick

01:14:02

Nick Gill on the podcast, All Black's

01:14:04

Strength and Conditioning Coach. He he I

01:14:06

think he told me or maybe I'm getting

01:14:07

him confused with another podcast guest

01:14:08

that um Richie was asked to Yeah. be a

01:14:11

Cyclaw. Yeah, I think he tried for it. I

01:14:13

don't know the details of it, but yeah,

01:14:14

I think he did it. Did the trial. Well,

01:14:16

that's a sort of caliber of person I'm

01:14:17

looking at. Yeah, there's some pretty

01:14:18

incredible dudes that tried for it.

01:14:19

Yeah. Well, it's good that he good that

01:14:21

he gave you a go. Yeah, good that they

01:14:23

gave you a shot. Oh, we'll give this low

01:14:25

performer a shot. Hey, why not? Um,

01:14:28

something you picked up on something I

01:14:30

picked up on before. So, you said uh

01:14:32

often you're cycling to work from Green

01:14:34

Height, which is how 20ks. 27ks. 27ks.

01:14:37

Why would you cycle 27ks to work when

01:14:40

when you know you're going to get on a

01:14:41

bike as soon as you get to work? Uh,

01:14:42

well, it's it just suited the program

01:14:44

sometimes. Like sometimes we would have

01:14:45

a gym session in the morning and we'd

01:14:48

have a big cycle in the afternoons and

01:14:50

it made sense for me to ride my bike to

01:14:52

work, do the gym session and then carry

01:14:54

and then ride my bike back home again

01:14:55

and do my big session in the afternoon.

01:14:57

So we'd do I'd ride my bikes and you'd

01:14:59

sort of leave your bike I wouldn't do it

01:15:00

every day. It it was sort of on and off

01:15:02

some days. I'd ride my motorbike to work

01:15:04

some days and I'd ride my bike to work

01:15:05

other days. And um yeah, it just worked

01:15:07

with the program because sometimes I

01:15:09

could leave my bike at work and or it

01:15:13

just fit in well with with what we were

01:15:15

doing. And it was kind of nice to save

01:15:17

money on gas and like, you know, get to

01:15:19

know the Oakland Western cycle way a bit

01:15:21

better. You those Lamborghinis Thursday.

01:15:23

I know. You know, I didn't have it at

01:15:24

that point. I didn't have it at that

01:15:26

point. Um Yes. So in the leadup to say

01:15:29

the America's Cup, what like what does

01:15:31

an average day or average week look like

01:15:32

for Yeah. over in Barcelona or here? No.

01:15:35

maybe here before you go. Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:36

So, I guess we would do

01:15:40

Can't remember exactly the program. Um,

01:15:42

but mainly it was either like an

01:15:45

interval session in the morning. So,

01:15:46

maybe like a minute on minute off

01:15:48

session or like a threshold session or

01:15:51

an FTP session or like a power session

01:15:54

depending on what we needed to do. Some

01:15:56

sprints maybe. Um, and that was sort of

01:15:58

usually around an hour and a half to two

01:15:59

hours. Um, and then we'd sort of get

01:16:03

into some we'd get there some chefs at

01:16:05

the base. Um, Harry Linsky and Mattie

01:16:06

Po, legendary chefs. Never had a bad

01:16:09

meal in that building ever. And it was

01:16:11

consistently amazing. Um, and we'd have

01:16:15

breakfast in the shed uh in the kitchen

01:16:16

and then very quickly get onto the onto

01:16:19

the floor and, you know, either it was I

01:16:21

needed to go see Sha and and figure out

01:16:24

what drives needed to be done, get in

01:16:26

the ute, off I go. Um or we would be on

01:16:29

the floor doing some logistics and

01:16:31

sorting out some moving some things

01:16:33

around so that the shed we could operate

01:16:35

how we needed to. Maybe the the AC40s

01:16:37

which was a smaller boat needed to be

01:16:38

worked on or needed to be moved or some

01:16:40

containers were coming in or there's so

01:16:42

much happening in that in that uh in

01:16:44

that shed that it requires um a lot of

01:16:46

manpower. So we were on that either that

01:16:49

or I was on the road.

01:16:51

And before these before these hard

01:16:53

sessions, um like are you nervous

01:16:57

knowing how much pain you're going to

01:16:58

be? Oh yeah, but you're just used to it

01:16:59

at that point, you know, with with

01:17:01

rowing especially like it's you learn

01:17:03

and everyone in the building, all the

01:17:05

boys sort of knew like how to handle

01:17:08

hard sessions and you just did it

01:17:09

because you'd done it for so many years.

01:17:11

Yeah. Yeah. In the afternoon. So then

01:17:13

we'd come back and finish all of our

01:17:15

sort of jobs and then afternoon we'd

01:17:16

either have a gym session or a long

01:17:18

ride. Yeah. It sort of alternated

01:17:20

between that. Usually it was around

01:17:23

I want to say like sort of 16 to 20

01:17:26

hours a week training. Yeah. With

01:17:28

sometimes in our big weeks we'd have

01:17:31

like I remember one of our massive weeks

01:17:32

in Oakuckland here. We'd have we I had

01:17:36

three near probably yeah 310k

01:17:40

rides a week. So that was like four to

01:17:42

five hours on the road. Um

01:17:47

and what sort of pace like

01:17:49

an hour. Yeah. I mean, speed's often not

01:17:52

helpful helpful for that because, you

01:17:53

know, you're going up hills. It was at

01:17:56

our sort of L2 zone. So, zone 2

01:17:58

training, everyone's getting quite

01:17:59

familiar with zone 2 cuz running's just

01:18:01

blowing up everywhere. So, yeah, that

01:18:03

was our zone 2 stuff. But it often, you

01:18:04

know, we'd ride through, you know, deep

01:18:07

west Oakland, go the white tax, go down

01:18:09

to Phar, come back out, go to Murai, go

01:18:11

back out, go through the Wakadis, and

01:18:13

then go home to Greenhigh. That was my

01:18:15

standard um big ride home. Yeah. From

01:18:18

town here. What about the money? Was the

01:18:20

money good? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Compared

01:18:23

to what I was on. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so

01:18:25

rowing Yeah. High performance sport New

01:18:27

Zealand. Yeah. What do you get? Is it

01:18:28

like a set fee if you're in the squad or

01:18:30

Yeah. I was on like It changed a lot,

01:18:32

but essentially it was around like 35

01:18:34

grand a year. Yeah. Yeah. Even at the

01:18:36

top level e like the the D leisas of the

01:18:38

world. Like I don't think she gets too

01:18:40

much. They're having to hustle to get

01:18:41

extra on top of the I think it's the 65

01:18:44

or 70 they get for for the the the

01:18:46

excellence grant now. And I think that's

01:18:49

a piss take. Well, the the sacrifices

01:18:51

you make over so many years. Yeah. Well,

01:18:53

I mean life on hold really. Yeah. I mean

01:18:55

it's you know I've heard Eric talk about

01:18:56

sacrifices before and he's got a good

01:18:58

take in it. I think Eric Murray by the

01:19:00

point. Um it's opportunity cost and it's

01:19:03

a and it's a choice and it's something

01:19:04

that you want to do. So but you also I

01:19:07

think should get rewarded for your

01:19:10

efforts. And I think that, you know,

01:19:13

getting

01:19:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's It's not It's

01:19:17

definitely not enough for for someone

01:19:18

like Lisa Carrington, who's one of the

01:19:20

most incredible athletes the world's

01:19:21

ever seen. To be on that sort of money

01:19:23

is And it's not all about the money.

01:19:24

It's definitely not It shouldn't be

01:19:25

about the money, but to support someone

01:19:28

with only that much is not it's not

01:19:29

good.

01:19:31

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Um, so

01:19:34

yes, so the the money is better in team

01:19:36

New Zealand, but then as we were talking

01:19:37

about before, the flip side of that is

01:19:38

it's um like shorter term contracts.

01:19:41

Yeah, honestly the contract with with

01:19:44

team New Zealand felt way more secure

01:19:45

than anything I'd have with rowing cuz

01:19:47

rowing was assessed essentially on the

01:19:48

six monthly basis cuz you'd have your

01:19:50

after the world champs and you'd be

01:19:52

selected for the world champs 6 months

01:19:53

later. Then you after that you'd have

01:19:55

the next year. So it was always six

01:19:57

monthly. Whereas this I had two years I

01:19:59

got contract until the end of the cup

01:20:00

2024. I was like, "Shit, [ __ ] let's

01:20:02

go." I was I felt like I could relax for

01:20:05

the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know

01:20:08

anything about sailing now or No, not

01:20:09

need to. Well, a little bit enough to be

01:20:12

able to hoist the hoist the sales of the

01:20:14

boat. Well, to be fair, there's a lot of

01:20:15

sailing in my family. Like my the sort

01:20:17

of wider wider family. There's some

01:20:19

world match racing champions and um and

01:20:22

my old man has idolized the team

01:20:24

forever. Like I wore his his red socks

01:20:27

that he bought in 2000. I wore them on

01:20:29

the boat when we won last year. So like

01:20:32

he has been and my brother he's an he's

01:20:33

an incredible sailor and he loves it you

01:20:36

know he he's out on this on a a Kurs 40

01:20:38

yacht that my another really good friend

01:20:40

owns and he he's just that's that sport

01:20:43

for him has brought him back to life. he

01:20:45

sort of had a bit of, you know, mental

01:20:46

low and he's really felt like his his

01:20:48

his role on that boat has really helped

01:20:50

him too. And um to be able to share a

01:20:52

bit of my experience, you know, albeit

01:20:55

like what he would probably want to do.

01:20:57

And I can understand he might be a bit

01:20:59

like jealous or whatever the hell that

01:21:01

emotion is, but I I love that I've been

01:21:03

able to include my family who are such a

01:21:07

sailing nuts um in that. Yeah. Yeah. Can

01:21:11

you believe that you're an America's Cup

01:21:12

winner? No. Yeah. Uh yep. Yeah, I held

01:21:15

it above my head. Oh, it's incredible,

01:21:17

man. Like, it's I I I get in my groove

01:21:19

down in Cambridge now and I sort of

01:21:21

relax and I and I sort of forget cuz I

01:21:23

get a bit in my own head and I need to

01:21:25

be better. I need to be better and then

01:21:26

I sort of zoom out a bit and I go, "Oh

01:21:28

shit." Like, we actually done really,

01:21:30

really well here. Yeah, that's cool,

01:21:32

man. And I look back at the footage and

01:21:34

I look back on what we, you know, the

01:21:35

day, you know, the the actual after the

01:21:38

race and Yeah, man. like holding that

01:21:41

big mullet like a magnum with the

01:21:43

America's Cup insignia on it and with my

01:21:45

mate Louie and and Nate and I was just

01:21:47

like chuffed ass took a knee and and had

01:21:50

a big swig like it was yeah it was a

01:21:52

real special moment well the guy he was

01:21:55

already on the knee yeah Marius is

01:21:58

already ready to go um what's next are

01:22:00

you are you hoping to be around for the

01:22:02

next campaign I'd love to man any uh

01:22:04

like I I'm have every intention of of of

01:22:08

putting of putting every every foot

01:22:10

forward that I can to be a part of the

01:22:11

team again. But I I haven't there hasn't

01:22:14

been much chat or any sort of, you know,

01:22:16

about what's going to happen or how it's

01:22:18

going to happen. So, I'm just expressing

01:22:20

my interest and, you know, keeping in

01:22:22

contact with the boys and and staff and

01:22:24

and management and going, "Hey, I I

01:22:26

really loved my experience and would

01:22:27

love to do it again if you have me." So,

01:22:29

that's essentially where I'm at, but I'm

01:22:31

not I'm not putting my life on pause up

01:22:33

here and sort of waiting. I'm getting

01:22:35

stuck in. We're back in Cambridge

01:22:37

getting our head to the ground. Let's

01:22:38

make it happen and then if it needs to

01:22:40

happen, I'll figure out how to come back

01:22:41

up here again. Yeah, that's awesome.

01:22:43

Yeah. What What about SGP? Do they have

01:22:46

Cyclones? No. So CGP is quite different.

01:22:48

They run a different kind of boat. So

01:22:50

their boat's a catamaran that has um

01:22:52

pedestal grinders. So they have arm

01:22:54

grinders on their on their Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:56

Um

01:22:58

what about other sports? So say say

01:23:00

you're lucky enough to do another um

01:23:02

America's Cup campaign, you'll be like

01:23:04

early 30s after that. Yeah. Yeah. What

01:23:06

else do you want to do? You want to try

01:23:07

endurance? Like Iron Man or something?

01:23:09

Yeah. I think like I funny like 105 kilo

01:23:12

guy loves running. Like I love running.

01:23:14

It's I'm [ __ ] at it. Like I'm really bad

01:23:16

at it, but I think it's one of the most

01:23:17

accessible sports and it's so good for

01:23:20

you. But I mean Iron Man maybe probably

01:23:23

just marathons really. I I I wouldn't

01:23:25

know at this point. It's a big call to

01:23:27

say I'd do a marathon, but um I might be

01:23:30

able to get to a spot where I could do

01:23:31

that. Yeah. I don't know. I guess we'll

01:23:33

have to see what my um see what my

01:23:35

intuition says I should do, you know.

01:23:37

Yeah, you I mean obviously you've got

01:23:39

this incredible like work ethic and and

01:23:42

this engine that allows you to do really

01:23:44

tough things. So like whatever you want

01:23:46

to do, I reckon you could probably do

01:23:48

quite successfully. Yeah. Well Well,

01:23:49

thank you for that. Yeah, I've probably

01:23:51

maybe Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. I mean,

01:23:53

unless I'm limited with my sort of

01:23:56

physical, you know, what I'm bound with

01:23:58

physically, like I'm a big guy. I'm like

01:24:00

6'4 105 kilos. So, like running is not

01:24:03

the most efficient thing I can do. Um,

01:24:06

yeah. For me, honestly, what I want to

01:24:08

do is ride my motorbike more and drive

01:24:10

cars more. That's really what I love

01:24:11

doing. Yeah. Oh, and one of your friend

01:24:15

Oh, Google. Google. Um, it wanted me to

01:24:18

want to ask about your your love life.

01:24:20

He every everyone's everyone's like

01:24:22

rooting for you to find the one. Yeah.

01:24:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll

01:24:27

see what happens. Like, it's still it's

01:24:29

still we're still on the path. So, is

01:24:31

your Bumble profile picture of the

01:24:32

yellow Lamborghini? No. It's funny

01:24:35

because that car has not featured

01:24:37

anywhere. The only people that know

01:24:39

about it are like my close friends and

01:24:41

now it's on the podcast.

01:24:44

So, I may as well start posting about

01:24:45

it.

01:24:47

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, and Michael, your

01:24:49

friend, he said you love the dog breed

01:24:52

Leonber, which um we talked about

01:24:54

briefly earlier. One of the biggest dog

01:24:56

breeds in the world. They must weigh

01:24:58

like 50 or 60 k. 70. Seven. Yeah. So Gus

01:25:00

is I've had two of them. Um yeah,

01:25:02

Lincoln was the last one. Lincoln was

01:25:03

the last one. Yeah. So he was he was um

01:25:05

he was a lovely lovely dog and um yeah,

01:25:08

he passed he passed away in front of me

01:25:09

which is kind of sad. Like he he came in

01:25:11

from a just just one night. I let him in

01:25:14

and he was at the front door just lying

01:25:16

down in his usual spot and all of a

01:25:18

sudden he let out this big yelp and I

01:25:19

was like, "Oh, what's happened here?"

01:25:21

And I was like, "What are you doing,

01:25:22

man?" And I just looked over and he was

01:25:23

just like lifeless and I could only see

01:25:25

his head. And I went over and looked at

01:25:26

him. I was like, "He's just pissed all

01:25:28

over the floor." And he was just like

01:25:30

just still. I was like, "Ooh, okay." So

01:25:34

yeah, he just he was just dead. Yeah, it

01:25:36

was pretty bad. Oh, that's so traumatic.

01:25:39

It was a shitty day. How how old? He was

01:25:41

four. Did they have quite a short

01:25:43

lifespan? 10 years is sort of the

01:25:45

expected, but what was it? No idea. I

01:25:48

expected it was some kind of like heart

01:25:50

issue maybe. I don't know. It's hard.

01:25:52

You have to do a biopsy. Whether it was

01:25:54

an autopsy on them and that's just I

01:25:56

felt like at that point it was not

01:25:57

necessary. you know, he was gone and I

01:25:59

just, you know, could celebrate him in

01:26:01

that way. Yeah.

01:26:03

Going back to my friends. So, we got on

01:26:05

the phone, all of our friends came over

01:26:07

at midnight on like a Wednesday and I

01:26:10

was just parked up in my lounge and

01:26:12

everyone was there and I was just like,

01:26:14

"This is incredible." I had didn't have

01:26:16

to like they were just there straight

01:26:18

away. It's it's it's crazy to have a

01:26:21

group of mates like that.

01:26:24

Yeah. your your circle of friends I find

01:26:26

especially as you get older it's um it's

01:26:28

a reflection of what you've put out on

01:26:29

the road I reckon yeah maybe um that's

01:26:32

devastating though like um yeah my

01:26:34

little dog's can't is he around there um

01:26:38

yeah I he's like 11 or 12 now when I

01:26:41

first got him

01:26:43

um the first thing I did like within the

01:26:45

first couple of days I googled like how

01:26:46

long does

01:26:49

it's so morbid straight away like within

01:26:51

a couple of days I was like [ __ ] I'm

01:26:53

going to be broken

01:26:55

It's bad. Like it's just and you didn't

01:26:57

really It's hard to process it straight

01:26:59

away. So like Yeah. And then you know a

01:27:02

couple was six or eight months later or

01:27:03

a year later I can't remember how long

01:27:05

it was got an email from a breeder who I

01:27:08

know really well down in Cambridge and

01:27:09

she lovely couple down there and I I

01:27:12

often go see them and take Gus back and

01:27:14

you we hang out. Um she was like, "Oh,

01:27:17

we've had a litter that's come available

01:27:18

because two of our dogs just had a quick

01:27:20

route in the paddock." Um,

01:27:24

and uh, it wasn't even a planned one. It

01:27:26

was like completely unplanned. What? The

01:27:27

root and the paddic. Yeah. No, just them

01:27:30

having the litter. It was just it was

01:27:31

just an accident really.

01:27:34

And I Yeah, I got one of those ones. And

01:27:36

Gus, he's uh he's been with me for, you

01:27:38

know, mom and dad love him. They look

01:27:40

after him while I was up I was with them

01:27:42

at at home um and Green Height and, you

01:27:45

know, they've just fallen in love with

01:27:46

him. He's just such a cool dog. He's

01:27:48

huge. Like he'd be sitting right here

01:27:49

like he's like the head's like this big

01:27:51

and Yeah. Why did you Yeah. Why did you

01:27:55

get the same breed again? Because I

01:27:56

don't know if I'd want to get a Sydney

01:27:57

Silky again cuz I think it would just

01:27:59

remind me too much of a Kanye. I just

01:28:01

love the their um temperament and their

01:28:05

like the way that they roll. I guess the

01:28:07

attitude. They've got a very like

01:28:10

they're in it and they're hanging out

01:28:11

and they're excited and then they're

01:28:13

tired and they go sit down. And I'm like

01:28:15

I've had enough here. I'm going to go

01:28:16

sit down. And they're a little bit

01:28:17

indignant. a little bit stubborn, heaps

01:28:19

of energy, and then like a big dog, man.

01:28:21

I [ __ ] I love I remember when I was

01:28:23

young, I saw and hung out with a new

01:28:25

found one, and it was this big black

01:28:28

slobbery fluffy thing, and I was like,

01:28:30

"Come here."

01:28:32

When I was like 8 years old, and I ran

01:28:34

up to it, I was like, "Come here." And I

01:28:36

just I just couldn't get enough of it.

01:28:37

And when I got older, I was like, "Oh,

01:28:39

I'd like one that doesn't drool."

01:28:41

Because the Newfoundlands and the St.

01:28:43

Bernards are the two other giant breeds

01:28:44

and they drool. So the Leon bers have a

01:28:48

lot of tight a tighter jaw so with their

01:28:51

sort of you know they're the skin around

01:28:52

the jaw and um yeah and and and I just

01:28:55

thought bug it let's do it. It is the

01:28:58

dog version of you. Yeah I guess so.

01:28:59

Yeah. Well that's what Michael break

01:29:01

your friend said. He said it's

01:29:04

the Leon B is a big goofy dog much like

01:29:07

you for a big goofy cam. Yeah. Yeah. I

01:29:09

love him. It's he's he's um he's brings

01:29:12

so much positive energy into him into my

01:29:14

life. Yeah. He's great. That's cool. Um,

01:29:16

just got some general questions to

01:29:18

finish up with. How's this been for you

01:29:19

today? Is it is it good reflecting on

01:29:21

the the journey of your life so far?

01:29:23

I've I've felt like I've wanted to talk

01:29:25

about it for a while. I've felt I've

01:29:27

wanted to sort of cuz I feel like it's

01:29:29

quite a unique journey. Like on

01:29:31

reflection, I've gone [ __ ] there's been

01:29:32

some interesting like ups and downs and

01:29:34

and difficulties and and I've had to

01:29:36

fight through a lot of my own [ __ ] to

01:29:39

get to where I am. And I think that's

01:29:40

relatable to a lot of people, especially

01:29:42

not succeeding or not feeling like you

01:29:44

succeed. Um, and

01:29:47

yeah, I think that's like and I've been,

01:29:49

you know, as soon as I talked to Beller

01:29:50

about, you know, coming in here, I was

01:29:52

like, "Yeah, this feels really right."

01:29:54

And, you know, to do it with you is

01:29:55

awesome because, you know, growing up

01:29:57

with radio and and you being such a

01:29:58

synonymous personality with with with

01:30:01

broadcasting, it's like, oh man, it's

01:30:03

it's a it's a bit of a privilege really.

01:30:04

I feel really lucky to do it. Well, I

01:30:06

feel I feel lucky that you're here,

01:30:07

Steve. Um, and I I I love it. Like yeah,

01:30:11

any any story where there's um like a

01:30:13

good dose of adversity, I think it's

01:30:15

good. I think there's a lot of lessons

01:30:16

that everyone can get from it. Yeah, for

01:30:18

sure. Um what are your best and worst

01:30:20

habits? Oh, best habits is supporting

01:30:23

others. Um worst habits is not doing

01:30:26

[ __ ] that I should right in the moment.

01:30:28

Getting better at it. Getting better.

01:30:29

It's not easy, but I'd rather sit down

01:30:32

and just chill out, man. I think

01:30:34

procrastination is a thing for a lot of

01:30:36

people.

01:30:37

It's you may as well figure it out cuz

01:30:38

it's pretty hard. Like it's the effects

01:30:41

of it are pretty bad if you don't sort

01:30:42

it out. So you may as well just get on

01:30:44

top of it. And when you do it actually

01:30:47

Yeah. Oh, it does. Yeah. It's so

01:30:49

satisfying. Um Yeah. The the more you

01:30:52

don't want to do something, the better

01:30:53

it feels once you've got it done. Yeah.

01:30:55

And the better the outcome is in your

01:30:56

life when you've done it. Yeah. What

01:30:58

What are you most afraid of?

01:31:04

Being abandoned, I guess.

01:31:06

Yeah. Yeah. Like some pretty hard like

01:31:11

Yeah. Especially like from a kid like

01:31:13

that whole exclusion thing and past

01:31:15

relationships. It's like when you think

01:31:17

something's going to be the thing you

01:31:18

have forever then and it's gone. You're

01:31:20

like ah whoa. That was a big blow. And

01:31:24

you have to figure yourself out from

01:31:25

there. Um what am I most scared of?

01:31:29

Abandoned. Like how do you how do you

01:31:30

mean? Did it feel like um with Rome New

01:31:32

Zealand like you were sort of abandoned?

01:31:34

No, I I don't know. Like

01:31:39

I don't know actually. No, it's a good

01:31:40

question.

01:31:42

It's funny though like talking about

01:31:43

that school stuff though that that stuff

01:31:45

like bullying at a primary school age.

01:31:47

It sticks with you. It happens to

01:31:49

everybody. It creates a a story or a

01:31:51

narrative in the person's mind that

01:31:53

often sticks with them for life and it's

01:31:54

hard to unpick. Oh yeah. You've got to

01:31:56

go down the rabbit hole, man. Like I had

01:31:58

an incredibly good sport psych that was

01:32:00

from High Performance Sport, another

01:32:02

amazing service that was really like

01:32:05

kindly given to us. um Jason Yul Proctor

01:32:07

and he I worked with him for I don't

01:32:10

know like six years I think from my

01:32:13

under 23s and me and him just we just

01:32:17

got stuck in man and just like started

01:32:19

with this young staff started with the

01:32:21

youth you know and then we just picked

01:32:23

away at it and I was there fortnightly

01:32:27

for six years well you know on and off

01:32:29

like this I'd say probably on average

01:32:31

once a month I'd see him and I managed

01:32:34

to like go and really get into the

01:32:36

nitty-gritty of it all. And um it was

01:32:38

pretty confronting cuz I was a pretty

01:32:40

fiery dude in boats at times. Like I'd

01:32:42

just lash out and get shitty and um and

01:32:45

it just was completely unhelpful. So me

01:32:48

and him started with that and then we

01:32:50

went down sort of the further like

01:32:52

mindfulness, meditation, watching your

01:32:54

thoughts, seeing them come by, realizing

01:32:56

that it's just a thought. It just

01:32:58

happens and just let it go and then you

01:32:59

make your decision on how you act

01:33:00

afterwards. I guess that's been sort of

01:33:02

fundamentally how I've tried to run it

01:33:04

since then. Reactivity is just such a

01:33:07

it's something that you can so easily is

01:33:10

not the word, but it's a very the first

01:33:13

the first step of of figuring your [ __ ]

01:33:15

out. That's a really good one. Watch

01:33:16

your thoughts. See what they do. Act

01:33:18

later. Even if it's a second later, or

01:33:21

even if you've just seen the anger come

01:33:23

across. If someone said something to you

01:33:24

and you go, "Oh, I didn't like that."

01:33:26

And don't immediately go.

01:33:29

You sit there. That hurt.

01:33:31

Okay, now I'll say something or listen

01:33:34

to it, have another conversation, say

01:33:36

something tomorrow. And then if you if

01:33:37

you really get really good at it, you

01:33:38

don't even have to say anything to the

01:33:40

person, you figure it out, and you carry

01:33:41

on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like you were

01:33:43

talking about before with the Tim New

01:33:45

Zealand example with the guy detailing

01:33:46

the boat. Yeah. And uh he said you'll

01:33:49

never get it. Um Yeah. Like immediately

01:33:53

um with any sort of confrontation, the

01:33:55

the natural reaction is to fire back.

01:33:57

Yeah. Um but it's hardly ever the right

01:34:00

reaction. Yeah. Cuz usually it's a

01:34:02

misunderstanding or some other thing.

01:34:04

Yeah. It's like angry emails. Write it,

01:34:07

leave it in the drafts, you'll look back

01:34:08

the next day and you'll be like what the

01:34:10

[ __ ] was I think? Exactly. Exactly. It's

01:34:12

ridiculous. I think that's where a lot

01:34:14

of people get stuck is like there's so

01:34:16

much reactivity in the world and it's

01:34:17

like just chill out, man. And also like

01:34:20

how big of an issue is it really? M go

01:34:22

go go go go for a run, go to the gym,

01:34:23

get that energy out of your system and

01:34:25

then make a decision cuz it's just

01:34:26

you're just too pent up about all the

01:34:27

[ __ ] Yeah. Most things you think

01:34:30

isn't even going to matter and yeah, you

01:34:32

can Yeah. Apply it anyway you want. 5

01:34:34

minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, 5 weeks, 5

01:34:36

months. And the answer is generally [ __ ]

01:34:38

no. No. Exactly. Um you've been you've

01:34:41

been really good um with the u the

01:34:43

vulnerability side of things today, like

01:34:44

expressing some emotion and also um just

01:34:47

talking through some um some really

01:34:49

crunchy stuff. Has that come as a result

01:34:50

from the therapy, you think? Uh, yeah.

01:34:52

I've never had a negative experience of

01:34:54

being vulnerable. Yeah. Ever in my life.

01:34:56

And I don't know why that is. I think

01:34:58

I'm pretty lucky maybe in that sense.

01:35:00

I've always I think I find safety in

01:35:02

friendships by being vulnerable. And

01:35:04

that the closer I am to somebody, the

01:35:05

the more safe I feel. So vulnerability

01:35:08

is really my way of feeling safe in

01:35:10

friendships. So that's been my first

01:35:12

port of call and getting more trust and

01:35:15

and you know and and that kind of thing

01:35:17

with with people. Yeah. As I said, just

01:35:20

makes me feel really safe and like and I

01:35:22

can I can rely on it, you know. Yeah. Um

01:35:25

yeah, your friend Michael Bre said that

01:35:27

in um the message he sent me. He said,

01:35:29

"Sometimes you guys can talk on the

01:35:30

phone for hours at a time." Yeah. Well,

01:35:31

we went to Pawanoi when I what was it

01:35:34

like last wait? Oh, it was we had a

01:35:37

weekend in Panoi and we didn't even

01:35:39

watch any TV. We didn't do anything. We

01:35:40

just sat around and yanned about

01:35:43

everything and anything just because me

01:35:45

and him are quite like we like to break

01:35:47

down all of the things that we're

01:35:48

thinking and really like get to the

01:35:49

bottom of it and you know and and it's

01:35:53

it's lovely. It's it's awesome. That's

01:35:55

so powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Especially for

01:35:57

guys to do it. Like there's all this

01:35:59

perception that guys like um

01:36:02

vulnerabilities weakness bro I'm just

01:36:04

like shut up like you know you know what

01:36:07

is weakness trying to be a tough guy

01:36:09

like you're bottling it up. Yeah. Like

01:36:11

and then you lash out at people like

01:36:12

what that's weakness man like there's

01:36:14

proper strength in letting yourself

01:36:16

letting yourself be better to someone

01:36:18

else you know like wear your heart on

01:36:20

your sleeve man. I love that. Yeah. Um

01:36:25

regrets.

01:36:27

Um, I don't think I have any really. I

01:36:31

not waiting for a red Lamborghini.

01:36:33

Red on would be cool. There's a nice red

01:36:36

Diablo down in Cambridge I've seen a

01:36:38

couple times. Nice car. No, no, no, no

01:36:40

regrets. Not even like, you know,

01:36:42

exiting the rowing program sooner. No,

01:36:45

because I think with every positive or

01:36:47

negative that comes in life, there is

01:36:49

it's there's a flip side to that coin.

01:36:50

Like with every negative, there is the

01:36:52

there's the corresponding positive. So,

01:36:55

you just got to look hard enough and

01:36:56

you'll find it. Whether it's something

01:36:58

you can't really see. Like for me, I

01:37:00

like like I had to trust that the work I

01:37:03

was putting in and rowing for those so

01:37:05

many years that had no real results. I

01:37:07

had to trust that that was something

01:37:08

that was worth doing. And I had no idea

01:37:11

where it was going to go. I just knew it

01:37:12

was the right thing to do. And then when

01:37:14

team New Zealand came around, it was

01:37:15

like I was just walking on air. I was

01:37:16

like, "This is going amazingly." And

01:37:19

that's where the reward comes. So

01:37:20

sometimes like you work hard for

01:37:22

something and you don't really know why.

01:37:23

Maybe you're in a job you don't enjoy.

01:37:25

Maybe it's like you're getting bullied

01:37:26

by your boss or you're having some hard

01:37:28

things at one job and you you grit

01:37:29

through it because yeah, let's get get

01:37:31

stuck in and figure it out. And then

01:37:33

it's like the next job comes along and

01:37:35

all of those things that you learned

01:37:36

from that last job then become a

01:37:38

strength in the next job and that's why

01:37:39

they love you so much. That's why they

01:37:40

appreciate you and that's why you're

01:37:41

getting paid more. And it's like all

01:37:43

that stuff happens all the time. Just

01:37:45

trust the process and keep working hard.

01:37:49

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A

01:37:51

lot of the time when I'm doing things, I

01:37:52

tell myself, um, I don't know where this

01:37:54

is leading, but it's got to be leading

01:37:56

somewhere. And if it feels right in in

01:37:57

your like if it feels intrinsically

01:38:00

right and like your your sort of your

01:38:02

soul or whatever that is is aligned with

01:38:03

it, then just just go for it. Like I had

01:38:06

a moment when I was training for Team

01:38:08

New Zealand like before the trial and I

01:38:10

was still in Cambridge and I was doing

01:38:11

my big rides every day or every other

01:38:13

day or whatever. Um, and I I was getting

01:38:16

to the end of like a sort of 80k ride

01:38:18

and I had heaps of time the rest of the

01:38:19

day and I was like, "No, I'm going to

01:38:21

push this out to 100 and just like go an

01:38:23

extra 20k and I just did another loop

01:38:24

somewhere." And I just had this rush of

01:38:27

like, "Fuck, you're on the right track

01:38:28

here. Just keep going." And it was I

01:38:30

think there's so many moments like that

01:38:32

that people ignore. Um, and just tuning

01:38:34

into your own intuition is something

01:38:35

that's like incredible. And once you

01:38:37

start doing it, it's like there's this

01:38:39

gut feel voice that just speaks so

01:38:41

loudly. Yeah.

01:38:44

What are three words that um family,

01:38:46

friends, teammates would use to describe

01:38:48

you? Hell yeah, brother.

01:38:51

Um,

01:38:55

hell yeah, brother. What's that? Did you

01:38:57

come on for that? I don't know. I guess.

01:38:59

No, no, I No, that was just first three

01:39:01

words that came to mind for me. But that

01:39:03

would have been so much cooler in a

01:39:04

Matthew McConnA voice, by the way. Hell

01:39:05

yeah, brother. Um, all right. All right.

01:39:07

All right. All right. All right. All

01:39:09

right. There it is.

01:39:11

All right. Um,

01:39:14

no. I think I hard to know what other

01:39:17

people's perceptions are, but you know,

01:39:19

positivity, uh, enthusiasm, and support,

01:39:22

I guess, is how I'd sort of like to be

01:39:25

seen, maybe. Yeah,

01:39:28

I like that. I think that's fairly

01:39:30

accurate from the research I did. Are

01:39:32

you proud of yourself? [ __ ] yeah. Yeah,

01:39:34

man. I listened to one of the old

01:39:36

podcast with Michaela Blide, um,

01:39:37

Michael's wife now, and she said it took

01:39:41

her a while to sort of get to a point

01:39:42

where she could be happy being proud of

01:39:43

herself. Um, and I feel the same looking

01:39:47

back on your performances and and your

01:39:49

the way you've done things and and what

01:39:51

you've learned out of it. And I think,

01:39:54

yeah, I've come to a point where I can

01:39:55

be proud and not arrogantly proud, just

01:39:57

like just straight up proud. Just like,

01:39:59

yep, I'm really happy with what I've

01:40:00

done. Yeah. So, but you've done a lot of

01:40:02

work. Yeah. But you've done a lot of

01:40:04

work and you've you've you've been

01:40:05

through a lot.

01:40:07

Were you were you proud of yourself when

01:40:08

you were rowing or because of the

01:40:10

results you could never fully be proud

01:40:12

of yourself? I think I came in and out

01:40:13

of it because the results were so uh you

01:40:17

know left and right or up and down. So

01:40:19

like I think in my early under 23 years

01:40:22

I was really proud of myself and like

01:40:24

our our performance in 2016 was

01:40:26

incredible um at the world champs there

01:40:29

and um but yeah through that sort of

01:40:33

five or six year period only towards the

01:40:35

end was I proud I was like I was proud

01:40:37

of how hard it was and how I'd managed

01:40:40

to to conduct myself during it. I never

01:40:43

ever got shitty about how how badly I

01:40:45

was doing. I never let it made it anyone

01:40:47

else's problem. I just got stuck in and

01:40:49

tried to figure it out. And I think

01:40:51

that's what I'm most proud of about that

01:40:52

journey. He's like, I never made it. I

01:40:54

never got shitty about it. And I I I

01:40:57

don't know why I could have, but Yeah.

01:41:01

Yeah.

01:41:03

Yeah. Is it your DNA? Are your siblings

01:41:04

like this as well? Are your parents like

01:41:06

this? Um or My dad's definitely like

01:41:08

this. Um I'm not sure if it's shared

01:41:10

throughout the family. Yeah. Um yeah, I

01:41:14

don't know. No. Well, this has been

01:41:16

really enjoyable today. if we could

01:41:18

bottle up what you've got and um it was

01:41:20

recorded so that's a good start

01:41:21

spreading around like yeah I think

01:41:22

there's like a lot of good lessons and

01:41:24

learnings in here. Yeah. Yeah.

01:41:26

Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. You're a good

01:41:27

dude. Yeah. Thanks Dom. You are too man.

01:41:29

I thoroughly enjoyed this. Yeah. It's

01:41:31

been really really enjoyable and um I

01:41:32

hope to see you in the next America's

01:41:34

Cup or if not um whatever you do next.

01:41:36

I'm sure you're going to do as good as

01:41:38

what you possibly can. Yeah, we'll see

01:41:39

man. Could be business, could be

01:41:41

whatever. I don't know. We'll see. It'll

01:41:43

be fun. Cam Webster, thanks so much.

01:41:45

Thank you, Dom. Cheers.

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

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Most heartwarming

Episode Highlights

The Brutal Path of a Cycler
Being a cycler is one of the hardest positions in any sport, requiring immense physical demand.
“Being a cycler is outrageously physically demanding.”
@ 04m 40s
June 12, 2025
Relentlessly Positive
His personality shines through as he finds joy in every aspect of his journey, even the tough times.
“I just loved it. Absolutely loved it.”
@ 09m 05s
June 12, 2025
Lessons from a Lamborghini
Owning a yellow Lamborghini taught him about self-acceptance and the perceptions of others.
“People assume you're a [ __ ] because it's a yellow Lamborghini.”
@ 20m 42s
June 12, 2025
Childhood Struggles
He shares his experiences of bullying and exclusion as a child and how it shaped him.
“The exclusion I felt as a kid haunted me.”
@ 26m 51s
June 12, 2025
The Olympic Dream
Despite being the first reserve for the Tokyo Olympics, he faced the harsh reality of competition.
“I was the first bowider out of the boat.”
@ 37m 27s
June 12, 2025
Navigating Envy
Choosing to celebrate others' successes can lead to personal happiness. "I’m never being envious ever again."
“I’m never being envious ever again.”
@ 51m 01s
June 12, 2025
The Importance of Support
Being around family during tough times is crucial. "Just being around the family was really important."
“Just being around the family was really important.”
@ 54m 09s
June 12, 2025
Team Spirit
The biggest advocate for the team, he doesn't care what others think.
“He doesn't give a [ __ ] what other people think of him and I just love that.”
@ 01h 06m 50s
June 12, 2025
Lessons in Excellence
A harsh truth about standards leads to a deeper understanding of excellence.
“That's exactly why you'll never get it.”
@ 01h 13m 12s
June 12, 2025
Family Connection
Wearing his father's lucky socks during a victory highlights a deep family bond.
“I wore his red socks that he bought in 2000 when we won last year.”
@ 01h 20m 27s
June 12, 2025
Lessons from Adversity
Reflecting on how challenges can lead to valuable life lessons.
“There’s a lot of lessons that everyone can get from it.”
@ 01h 30m 15s
June 12, 2025
Trusting the Process
Emphasizing the importance of perseverance and finding positives in struggles.
“Just trust the process and keep working hard.”
@ 01h 37m 49s
June 12, 2025

Episode Quotes

I just had to be there for him. There's no other option.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success
I was a huge people pleaser for the longest time.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success
It was heartbreaking. You want something so bad.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success
It’s a [ __ ] horrible thing.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success
That's exactly why you'll never get it.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success
I’ve never had a negative experience of being vulnerable.
Cam Webster: From Olympic Heartbreak to America's Cup Success

Key Moments

Physical Demands04:40
Bittersweet Reflections33:36
Celebrating Friends' Success50:01
Celebrate Success50:21
Team Advocate1:06:50
Confronting Truth1:13:12
Understanding Excellence1:13:36
Reflecting on Success1:21:26

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

Cam Webster: Olympic Rowing Heartbreak to America's Cup Glory #shorts

June 12, 2025

01:16

Cam Webster: Olympic Rowing Heartbreak to America's Cup Glory #shorts

Dougal Allan - Multi Sport Champion on joining Team New Zealand & Racing with Richie McCaw

June 02, 2024

01:08:49

Dougal Allan - Multi Sport Champion on joining Team New Zealand & Racing with Richie McCaw

Hamish Kerr: The Journey to Becoming an Olympic Champion

November 16, 2025

02:04:25

Hamish Kerr: The Journey to Becoming an Olympic Champion

America's Cup Winner Dean Barker || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

June 10, 2023

01:23:00

America's Cup Winner Dean Barker || Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

42 Wins, 4 World Titles: NZ Motocross Legend Courtney Duncan’s Incredible Story

August 03, 2025

01:52:26

42 Wins, 4 World Titles: NZ Motocross Legend Courtney Duncan’s Incredible Story

NZ Mountainbike Legend - Brook MaDonald’s WILD Story!

June 04, 2025

01:29:27

NZ Mountainbike Legend - Brook MaDonald’s WILD Story!

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

April 06, 2025

01:20:48

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

NZ Super-Coach Craig Kirkwood on Olympic Medals & Being Blindsided by Hayden Wilde

March 04, 2026

01:32:23

NZ Super-Coach Craig Kirkwood on Olympic Medals & Being Blindsided by Hayden Wilde

Bay Dreams Co-founder Mitch Lowe - Controversy, Fisher In NZ & MILLIONS LOST!

May 21, 2025

01:55:40

Bay Dreams Co-founder Mitch Lowe - Controversy, Fisher In NZ & MILLIONS LOST!