00:00:00
I was finishing my PhD in psychological
00:00:03
flourishing and resilience. All of our
00:00:05
lives changed forever.
00:00:07
>> Who is Dr. Lucy Holmes? Who was she
00:00:09
before May 31, 2014?
00:00:11
>> Our beautiful 12year-old daughter Abby
00:00:14
was killed in a car accident.
00:00:15
>> How is it for you to talk about that?
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>> I don't remember that much of feeling
00:00:19
like a caged animal. Wild animal is
00:00:22
probably the better description. We've
00:00:23
never blamed the driver. Blame was a
00:00:25
road to hell. Abby taught me that life
00:00:28
is wild and precious. She literally gave
00:00:31
me the Merry Oliver poem about a month
00:00:33
before she died.
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>> Do you wonder about what I should be
00:00:36
doing?
00:00:36
>> Christmas time is always still pretty
00:00:38
awful. Would I have her back? Of course.
00:00:40
In a second. I do know she's just not
00:00:42
here.
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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:46
the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:48
there's a top performance in New
00:00:49
Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:00:51
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
00:00:53
for days. That's the boys who got the
00:00:55
hollen one in Tour.
00:00:58
Oh,
00:00:58
>> he did it again. Hey Finn, how's the
00:01:01
performance going?
00:01:01
>> Top tier.
00:01:02
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In
00:01:04
here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:06
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver
00:01:08
investments. Get in here, Finn.
00:01:10
>> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:12
>> Putting performance first.
00:01:13
>> Dr. Lucy Hone, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Oh, Dom, it's such an honor to be here.
00:01:18
Thank you for having me.
00:01:20
>> We We just met uh like 10 minutes ago,
00:01:22
and I said to you, I feel like I know
00:01:23
you. I wasn't sure if we'd met before or
00:01:24
not, but um we've got messages that go
00:01:26
backwards and forwards for years.
00:01:28
>> That's a funny thing. That's one of
00:01:29
those social media things, isn't it,
00:01:31
that you and I feel like we know each
00:01:33
other and we've never actually met in
00:01:35
person. So, I'm delighted to be here
00:01:37
with you.
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>> I'm delighted to finally connect with
00:01:39
you. You've got this brand new book out.
00:01:40
How will I ever get through this? Um
00:01:45
when should someone have this? Um should
00:01:47
it be something you have um when you
00:01:49
reach desperation point, crisis point
00:01:51
and you need it or should you read
00:01:53
before then?
00:01:53
>> Such a good question. Um so in truth I
00:01:57
think that the most
00:02:01
kind of typical reader will be somebody
00:02:03
who is going through a stressful life
00:02:07
event or do you know what I call them in
00:02:09
the book? BFTs.
00:02:12
um after we've got a bit of a family
00:02:13
thing about a BFT, which is a bloody
00:02:16
thing, a bloody effing thing. And so
00:02:19
it's my shorthand for all of those big
00:02:24
life events and transitions that don't
00:02:27
involve a funeral. And so that's what
00:02:30
this book is about. Um, my last other
00:02:34
grief book was about coming back from
00:02:37
death, bereavement, but eventually
00:02:40
people kept coming to me and asking for
00:02:43
a different kind of book that was about
00:02:45
those like they I've gone through
00:02:47
something. I've lost something. Um, and
00:02:51
I feel overwhelmed and completely like
00:02:54
my world has fallen apart. How do I get
00:02:57
through this? Um and as we might get
00:02:59
into that question comes from my
00:03:01
research.
00:03:03
>> Yes. You you've got um classroom
00:03:05
knowledge um but also just unimaginable
00:03:07
real life knowledge as well which places
00:03:09
you in a very unique position. So who is
00:03:12
Dr. Lucy Hone?
00:03:15
>> Are you asking me that question?
00:03:17
>> Well actually no let me ask that a
00:03:18
different way. Who who was she before
00:03:20
May 31, 2014 and who is she now?
00:03:23
>> Such a good question. So before the 31st
00:03:26
of May 2014, which is the day that our
00:03:29
beautiful 12-year-old daughter Abby was
00:03:33
killed in a car accident, alongside her
00:03:37
equally gorgeous 12year-old best buddy,
00:03:40
one of her best buddies, Ella, and
00:03:43
Ella's mom, Sally, who was I nearly said
00:03:46
is, but you know, is a dear dear friend
00:03:49
of mine. Um the day before
00:03:53
um I was finishing my PhD in
00:03:57
psychological flourishing and
00:03:59
resilience. So that is you know I have
00:04:02
had this academic background in
00:04:06
basically trying to work out why some
00:04:09
people seem to get through
00:04:12
disruption, challenge, change, stress,
00:04:15
pressure better than others. That was my
00:04:17
day job. I'd then helped people in the
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Christ Church earthquakes for a couple
00:04:22
of years. For a bit, I put my PhD on
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hold and literally put it on hold just
00:04:27
to do work in the aftermath of the
00:04:30
Christ Church earthquakes. And then I
00:04:33
was coming to the end of it when
00:04:36
that day dawned and our all of our lives
00:04:40
changed forever. Um, seriously. Yeah. I
00:04:43
mean I would say that that
00:04:46
we are a very close family still. I'm
00:04:48
delighted to say but childhood ended for
00:04:51
our boys and that day and our family the
00:04:56
boys were pretty much 16 and 14. So we
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did go from being you know a young
00:05:02
family to quite a different family.
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>> You change as a person I guess.
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>> Yeah you do fundamentally change as a
00:05:12
person. My mom died many years ago in
00:05:15
2000. And I think it was at that she
00:05:18
died of um lung cancer and didn't smoke.
00:05:21
And
00:05:23
it was then that I came across a quote
00:05:25
from one of the Gibb brothers, the
00:05:28
Beeges. I can't remember which one. And
00:05:30
they'd had um they'd gone through a lot
00:05:33
of losses. Um I remember one of them
00:05:35
saying, "There are two types of people
00:05:37
in life. those who have lost someone and
00:05:40
those who have yet to do so. And that
00:05:43
really resonated with me and and now
00:05:46
actually I changed that to say actually
00:05:48
there are so many more losses than when
00:05:50
someone dies. Um but boy it changes you.
00:05:54
It changes everything about you. And
00:05:55
that is the research I've been doing
00:05:57
specifically for the last 18 months to
00:06:00
write this book is to say have these
00:06:03
losses changed you? And there is a
00:06:06
growing field of psychology called
00:06:10
post-traumatic growth. And that field
00:06:12
has been around for about 30 years now.
00:06:15
And there is an abundance of robust
00:06:18
psychological science showing that of
00:06:21
course we don't like these events. And I
00:06:22
wouldn't wish them on anyone. But the
00:06:25
reality is that more people grow from
00:06:28
these events and experience
00:06:31
post-traumatic growth than do
00:06:34
posttraumatic stress. Like some of the
00:06:37
studies say 8% of people might develop
00:06:41
post-traumatic stress. What would be
00:06:43
your guess for post-traumatic growth,
00:06:46
Dom?
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>> Wow. Must be 92.
00:06:48
No,
00:06:49
>> doesn't quite work like that. But in
00:06:51
studies show that about 60% on average
00:06:55
of people will describe that they have
00:07:00
completely changed as a result of going
00:07:02
through these kind of big stressful life
00:07:05
events. So yeah, it certainly changed
00:07:07
me,
00:07:08
>> changed how I view resilience, changed
00:07:10
how I work, changed us all. Didn't
00:07:14
change my marriage, I'm delighted to
00:07:16
say. um you know tough times but um and
00:07:21
would have doubt without a doubt changed
00:07:23
our son's lives.
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>> How how do you not you specifically but
00:07:27
anyone how do you not let like a
00:07:30
dramatic life event like that just
00:07:32
completely consume you?
00:07:33
>> It does completely consume you. So at
00:07:35
the beginning you cannot stop it from
00:07:38
consuming you. Um, so anybody who's
00:07:41
listening who's been through a major
00:07:44
life event will be familiar with the
00:07:47
fact that in the immediate aftermath,
00:07:49
particularly if it is sudden and
00:07:51
traumatic, you have what we call
00:07:53
intrusive rumination, meaning that you
00:07:56
just cannot stop thinking about it. Like
00:07:59
you are consumed with thoughts. I would
00:08:02
think about Abby every single second of
00:08:05
my waking hours for I'm delighted to say
00:08:08
I can't remember how long now, but for a
00:08:12
long time, months, possibly even beyond
00:08:14
the first year. And then over time what
00:08:17
we see in the research and I see with my
00:08:21
own clients is that over time that
00:08:24
intrusive rumination which we have no
00:08:26
control over which completely consumes
00:08:28
us becomes what we call deliberate
00:08:31
rumination which basically just means
00:08:33
that you get a bit of space from it. You
00:08:35
can almost kind of like hover above it
00:08:38
and examine your thoughts a bit more. So
00:08:41
you start asking different questions
00:08:43
like asking what does this mean for me
00:08:46
and how am I going to maintain that
00:08:49
relationship that is important or
00:08:51
actually do you know what I might let
00:08:52
the other relationship go. So over time
00:08:55
you go from intrusive rumination to
00:08:57
deliberate rumination. And that
00:09:00
struggle, all those questions and all
00:09:03
that thinking is where the
00:09:05
re-calibration and growth comes from
00:09:07
because you're basically reinventing how
00:09:10
you think about the world.
00:09:13
>> That's such a great answer. This is
00:09:14
going to be such a big episode. Uh I
00:09:16
feel like it's going to be like an
00:09:17
episode of two parts. like there's um
00:09:18
going to be answers like that which is
00:09:20
um helpful for anyone that's listening
00:09:22
but then there's also going to be um you
00:09:25
know personal questions related to to
00:09:27
your backstory a after something like
00:09:29
this a big sit down podcast where you
00:09:32
reflect on your daughter and her life
00:09:34
how are you do you get like a like a
00:09:35
vulnerability hangover are you
00:09:37
emotionally drained
00:09:38
>> I'm definitely emotionally drained um
00:09:40
people who seem are familiar with my
00:09:43
work are surprised because people think
00:09:44
if and if you follow me on social media
00:09:46
people might think that I'm extrovert.
00:09:49
I'm actually pretty introverted. And
00:09:52
then the definition of that is that
00:09:55
being around lots of other people and
00:09:57
being on really drains me. So a podcast
00:10:00
like this I I enjoy having these
00:10:03
conversations. My mission is to get
00:10:05
people to be able to talk about grief.
00:10:07
So I absolutely welcome this
00:10:09
opportunity. But yeah, I will probably
00:10:11
be lying on the couch by half 6 this
00:10:13
evening.
00:10:15
>> You one thing you mentioned your social
00:10:16
media. One thing I like about it is um
00:10:17
even though grief is your specialty,
00:10:19
it's so upbeat. You're so upbeat, so
00:10:22
positive. Everything you do on social
00:10:24
media is um uh it's like a shiny happy
00:10:27
person.
00:10:28
>> I don't think I'm a shiny happy person.
00:10:29
That's interesting. Well, I mean, so I
00:10:32
think I'm pragmatic more than positive.
00:10:34
I think I'm really very real. You know,
00:10:37
my actually my biggest post of last year
00:10:40
was when I got hit in the face by a
00:10:43
unexpected flying sun umbrella and it
00:10:46
whacked me in the eye and I looked like
00:10:48
my husband had beaten me and I found
00:10:51
myself on Monday morning in Oakuckland
00:10:53
going to do record my audio book and I
00:10:56
was sitting in the back of the cab
00:10:57
thinking I feel awful. I feel
00:10:59
vulnerable.
00:11:01
I feel daunted by what's ahead. And I
00:11:04
thought actually this this is the moment
00:11:06
to do a post to be real, you know, no
00:11:08
makeup, really big bruised black eye.
00:11:12
You can if you're on social media, you
00:11:13
can go and look at it. And so I'm I I by
00:11:18
nature, my mom used to say, you know, I
00:11:20
was a sunny, happy child.
00:11:22
>> I do think I've had multiple losses in
00:11:24
my life. I think I'm much more pragmatic
00:11:27
now. Um and I certainly wasn't upbeat
00:11:31
for a long time after Abby died. You
00:11:33
know, it took a it took a long time for
00:11:36
me to get my zest back again.
00:11:40
>> There's a Taylor Swift song that I
00:11:42
really like called All Too Well, and
00:11:43
there's a line in there, and this is
00:11:44
just a song about a a pathy relationship
00:11:46
she had. Um, but the line goes, um,
00:11:49
"Time won't fly. It's like I'm paralyzed
00:11:51
by it. I'd like to be my old self again,
00:11:53
but I'm still trying to find it." Now,
00:11:54
I'm sure after a 3-month relationship,
00:11:56
you do find your old self again, but
00:11:58
after losing a child, do you?
00:12:00
>> Um, no. So one, so let me explain why I
00:12:03
say no. One of my big bug bears is that
00:12:06
people define resilience, which is my
00:12:09
academic field, as bouncing back. And I
00:12:12
don't know about you, Dom, and anyone
00:12:15
who's listening, but when you've gone
00:12:17
through a really tough life moment,
00:12:20
firstly, I don't think you feel bouncy.
00:12:22
We've covered that. You know, no room
00:12:24
for tiger here. And I definitely went
00:12:26
from being a pretty bouncy person to a
00:12:28
much less bouncy person for a long time.
00:12:31
But also, you don't go back. These big
00:12:33
life events absolutely
00:12:36
change us. They put an imprint on us. We
00:12:39
completely think differently to how we
00:12:43
did before. And I don't know if we're
00:12:45
going to talk about this, but in this
00:12:47
new book, in How will I ever get through
00:12:49
this? I talk about the fact that when
00:12:52
these big events happen, what really
00:12:55
happens to us is it's like someone
00:12:57
throws a wrecking ball into your world.
00:13:00
So suddenly the the world that you
00:13:02
thought you lived in and the life
00:13:06
journey and path that you kind of
00:13:07
thought you were going down is
00:13:10
completely smashed apart. And we call
00:13:13
that in psychology your basically your
00:13:16
breakdown of your assumptive world.
00:13:19
Meaning the assumptions you had
00:13:21
previously about the world, how it
00:13:23
should work, how you should behave, and
00:13:25
how other people should behave. All of
00:13:27
your core beliefs have just been smashed
00:13:29
apart. So, in order for us to relearn to
00:13:34
live in the world, to to cobble together
00:13:38
a life in the aftermath of something
00:13:40
like that, what we're really doing is
00:13:44
reassembling a new operating system,
00:13:46
like new core beliefs, a new assumptive
00:13:50
world. And in doing so, like literally
00:13:53
rebuilding that jigsaw puzzle, if you
00:13:55
like, you build it completely
00:13:57
differently. And I've always thought
00:13:58
that our jigsaw piece puzzle is
00:14:01
completely different and it will always
00:14:03
have a piece missing in the middle.
00:14:08
>> So who was or who is Abigail and Hone?
00:14:12
>> Um, do
00:14:12
>> you say was or is?
00:14:14
>> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I
00:14:16
don't um I do I love her still. Yes. So
00:14:20
I wouldn't talk about loved in the past
00:14:23
tense.
00:14:25
I would say was because that is back
00:14:29
then, you know, we were all younger
00:14:31
then. Um she was a um one of her
00:14:34
favorite words which about sums her up
00:14:36
was redunculous.
00:14:39
And that does about sum her up. She was
00:14:40
redunculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Um
00:14:43
she was funny. She was quite irreverent.
00:14:48
She was, you know, sharp. She would cut
00:14:51
you down. um a very dear friend of ours,
00:14:54
her one of her best friends is called
00:14:55
Imagigen, and I did use the present
00:14:58
tense there, which is interesting, isn't
00:15:00
it? That Imagigen's dad, Tony, I
00:15:02
remember him once was about to walk out
00:15:05
the door at his house and Abby said to
00:15:07
him, Tony, are you going outside wearing
00:15:09
that? And he looked at her and and she
00:15:11
he was like, should I not? And she said,
00:15:13
no, I definitely don't recommend that.
00:15:15
She was 12, so she was definitely sassy.
00:15:20
Um, and
00:15:22
beautiful
00:15:24
and
00:15:25
yeah, bubbly, emergent.
00:15:28
12. It's such an age, isn't it? Where
00:15:30
you're just coming into yourself. She
00:15:33
was curious. She once walked through the
00:15:35
front door and said to me, "Mom,
00:15:39
is it possible to be too
00:15:41
solutionfocused?"
00:15:42
Which made me laugh. I was like, "Oh my
00:15:44
god, you're so precocious."
00:15:47
Um, so yeah, she was um a sharp little
00:15:51
thing.
00:15:51
>> What about um like music, TV shows,
00:15:54
clothing stores, toys?
00:15:56
>> Um, so
00:15:58
um Harry Styles, what were they called?
00:16:00
One Direction. One Direction. So just
00:16:03
before she died in that last year, the
00:16:06
uh Moore FM were running a competition
00:16:08
to go to One Direction. So, she and I
00:16:11
went to the beach and funny Ed, our
00:16:13
eldest, and both our sons are video
00:16:16
editors, but Ed put together a video of
00:16:18
Abby and I singing the beautiful song on
00:16:22
the beach.
00:16:23
>> That's what makes you beautiful.
00:16:23
>> That's what makes you beautiful. And um
00:16:26
it's still available on YouTube
00:16:28
somewhere. It's just hilarious. And we
00:16:30
kind of do this big hair flick. And so
00:16:32
that was Abby. She was in love with
00:16:34
Harry Styles. Um and Charlie Murray, who
00:16:37
was the boy at school she was in love
00:16:38
with. Sorry. Sorry, Charlie Murray. I
00:16:41
hope you don't listen to this.
00:16:43
>> Twitties now.
00:16:43
>> Yep.
00:16:44
>> Yeah. Um,
00:16:46
>> yeah. How do you how do you feel when
00:16:47
you watch that clip on YouTube?
00:16:49
>> Do you do you watch it very often or do
00:16:51
you like consciously avoid it?
00:16:52
>> I don't consciously avoid it. It's not
00:16:54
very easy to find. I probably have
00:16:55
watched it um about once a year or once
00:16:58
every 18. I suddenly remember it or
00:17:00
maybe I I hear the track and so I will
00:17:04
go and look at it and then I I feel
00:17:06
good. It's hilarious. But equally, I'm
00:17:08
going to be really honest, and somebody
00:17:09
asked me to go to Harry Styles with them
00:17:12
because he's about to visit, isn't he?
00:17:14
And I just said, "No, I can't do that."
00:17:18
>> Um, we did get to see One Direction
00:17:20
together, Abby and I, at her only
00:17:22
concert. And I couldn't. No, I would
00:17:25
just I'd be bereft and I would feel
00:17:27
like, you know, half of me was missing.
00:17:30
So, I'm careful,
00:17:33
you know, it's not like I avoid tears,
00:17:35
but I am a little bit careful that I
00:17:38
wouldn't Yeah, I tend to just protect
00:17:40
myself a little bit from really acute
00:17:43
moments like that that don't have that
00:17:46
much benefit. I can watch Harry on
00:17:48
Instagram.
00:17:50
So, 24th of April, 2026. Uh, that would
00:17:53
be her 24th birthday, which means she's
00:17:56
she's been passed as long as what she
00:17:58
was on the Earth side. What do you do on
00:18:00
what do you do on the 24th of April?
00:18:02
>> Wow. This is honestly, this is such a
00:18:04
delight. You've asked me this question
00:18:06
because you're not going to believe what
00:18:07
our answer is, and you're not also going
00:18:09
to believe I will probably cry about
00:18:11
this. And it isn't about Abby. So,
00:18:13
oddly, on the 24th of April this year,
00:18:17
do you know what's happening in Christ
00:18:18
Church?
00:18:20
The stadium is opening, the new stadium.
00:18:24
So, we have tickets and we are going
00:18:26
with Patty, our middle boy. And this
00:18:29
will make me cry. It's been a long road
00:18:32
in Christ Church. And I went the other
00:18:35
day to the big stadium in Sydney. I was
00:18:37
over there working. I went to the
00:18:39
Waratars Reds and I walked out into the
00:18:42
stadium and I was with all my Aussie
00:18:44
friends who live in Bondi. So they
00:18:47
they've been through a lot and I've been
00:18:49
thinking about them and their community.
00:18:51
I was staying in Bondi and suddenly I
00:18:54
walked out into the stadium and I said,
00:18:56
"Oh wow, we are about to have a stadium
00:18:59
like this." And it's really easy. This
00:19:02
is not a sob story, but it is really
00:19:04
easy for other parts of art and New
00:19:07
Zealand to forget what it actually is
00:19:09
like to have lived there for the past 15
00:19:12
years. Just last weekend was the 15th
00:19:14
anniversary. And I wrote a blog about
00:19:16
that because I wanted to remember and
00:19:18
then I went to look for pictures and I
00:19:21
just could not believe the devastation.
00:19:23
So for us to stand as a city
00:19:28
in that stadium on Aby's birthday and
00:19:32
finally feel like our city is so much
00:19:36
better, stronger.
00:19:39
You know, it's quite a different
00:19:40
community. and I do quite a lot of work
00:19:42
in resilient communities and we've been
00:19:44
through so much that I'm really proud to
00:19:46
say that on that birthday I will be
00:19:50
standing there with um two of the three
00:19:53
people I love most and we will be
00:19:55
thinking about Abby and we will feel
00:19:57
like it's wow what a thing to celebrate
00:20:00
to be there
00:20:04
>> you're so positive eh
00:20:08
is the birthday hard like leading up to
00:20:09
it each year or
00:20:11
>> somebody asked me um on Instagram,
00:20:13
somebody asked me today actually sent me
00:20:15
a message to say, "What can we do for an
00:20:18
an anniversary of their child?" And I
00:20:20
said to them, actually, all I will say
00:20:22
to you is that I don't think we've ever
00:20:24
felt like we got that birthday right,
00:20:28
but also we didn't get it wrong. I just
00:20:30
think you just have to find your way
00:20:33
through it, and there is no right or
00:20:35
wrong way. We've sometimes I think I
00:20:39
have probably pushed for doing less at
00:20:42
times having less people around because
00:20:44
that's the introvert in me and Trevor my
00:20:46
husband is more extroverted but we've
00:20:48
usually ended up seeing friends and
00:20:51
family and we had our 21st a couple of
00:20:54
years ago and we went as a family um to
00:20:57
Raglin and hired a really great house
00:21:00
there and we're all together and
00:21:01
everybody served and
00:21:04
but you never feel good about it And so
00:21:07
I think you do need people. I eventually
00:21:09
even I would acknowledge that we need
00:21:11
people around us. It's just a day to get
00:21:14
through. I think
00:21:18
>> May 31st, 2014. Do how is it for you to
00:21:23
talk about that? Do do you sort of go on
00:21:24
autopilot like to have you must have
00:21:26
told the story like a thousand times?
00:21:28
You
00:21:29
>> I think that's true. I I think I do
00:21:31
slightly disassociate. um years and
00:21:33
years ago soon after the girls died
00:21:37
Sunday program came and interviewed me I
00:21:41
think it was them some journalist at
00:21:42
some point said to me I feel like there
00:21:45
are two 's going on here and that you're
00:21:47
almost
00:21:50
kind of observing your own response and
00:21:53
talking more from an academic standpoint
00:21:57
than yourself personally I I don't mind
00:22:01
talking about it you It is the facts of
00:22:03
our lives and
00:22:07
I don't remember that much about it. I
00:22:10
remember we were at Oroho Lodge and
00:22:14
you know it just was grim and the phone
00:22:17
calls to the rest of my family and I
00:22:21
basically remember being sweaty,
00:22:24
thirsty,
00:22:26
feeling like a caged animal like like
00:22:29
literally feeling like like a wild
00:22:31
animal is probably the better
00:22:33
description.
00:22:35
And I remember in the early weeks
00:22:38
afterwards feeling like I was on
00:22:40
autopilot that everybody did everything
00:22:42
for me. It was almost like people just
00:22:44
kind of had me by the shoulders and
00:22:47
directed me to where I had to go. So
00:22:53
yeah, I mean it's
00:22:56
it's yeah, words do kind of fail us, I
00:22:58
guess.
00:23:01
>> The day before she won an Endeavor award
00:23:04
for
00:23:05
hard work at her school. Um,
00:23:07
>> which is hilarious because she wasn't a
00:23:08
particularly hard worker, but she had
00:23:11
just and and I've looked at that award
00:23:14
cuz it's still in her bedroom and it was
00:23:15
for academic endeavor.
00:23:18
>> Go Gingang we used to call her and um,
00:23:21
wow. And we gang, I don't know why.
00:23:24
Abigail ging. Wala wala. That's
00:23:26
something I've never said before out
00:23:28
loud. That's just at our house. Um, but
00:23:31
was quite funny because Trevor and I
00:23:33
turned up when we arrived, we didn't
00:23:35
have any we didn't I don't know, did we
00:23:37
not really believe it was a big thing or
00:23:39
something. So, we turned up at school
00:23:41
and I remember I was in Converse and
00:23:43
jeans and everybody else was really
00:23:45
smart and I remember the two of us
00:23:48
saying, "Oh, like maybe this is actually
00:23:51
something we should tune into." And
00:23:54
mainly I also remember that she had the
00:23:57
like some fudge afterwards and you know
00:23:59
that was the thing she was most excited
00:24:01
about. But
00:24:02
>> yeah, so I I do think that she would
00:24:05
have you know I'm probably making this
00:24:07
up but I've always kind of felt she was
00:24:09
a writer, a thinker like you know that
00:24:11
line about is it possible to be too
00:24:14
solution focused? Definitely precocious
00:24:17
but she definitely was curious. Um, and
00:24:22
I, you know, I used, I think in
00:24:24
Resilient Grieving, my one of my other
00:24:26
books, I did say that we might have
00:24:28
ended up publishing together one day.
00:24:30
>> Uh, but I, ironically,
00:24:34
she's here now. We work together now.
00:24:37
>> Does that make sense?
00:24:38
>> I wouldn't be doing any of this.
00:24:39
>> Keeping her keeping her alive.
00:24:41
>> Yeah. I wouldn't be doing any of this
00:24:42
work if she hadn't lived and hadn't
00:24:44
died. And so I do feel like there is a
00:24:49
co-creation
00:24:51
thing. We do this together.
00:24:55
>> That was such a funny answer. Like I
00:24:56
brought up that endeavor thing cuz I was
00:24:58
thinking um you know just sort of it's
00:25:00
an example of um just the promise and
00:25:02
the life that was lost and you you cut
00:25:04
her down at the knees.
00:25:05
>> Scoffed at it.
00:25:07
>> Did I say that we're pragmatic and real
00:25:09
not perfect in our family? here. Um, I
00:25:13
found the uh the obituary online which
00:25:15
um [ __ ] it's it's it's a piece of
00:25:18
writing that like no
00:25:19
>> who wrote the e
00:25:21
>> are you going to have to read it to me
00:25:23
cuz I don't know who
00:25:24
>> did you have a hand you must have had a
00:25:25
hand
00:25:25
>> is this a bit that was in a paper or
00:25:27
>> online
00:25:28
>> okay are you going to read it
00:25:30
>> um y I I cut out some of the names at
00:25:31
the end but um this is the gist of it on
00:25:35
May 31st 2014 our beautiful little
00:25:38
perfect funny kind daughter, sister,
00:25:42
granddaughter, godaughter, and friend
00:25:45
was tragically taken from us as the
00:25:46
result of an accident aged 12 years.
00:25:49
Precious daughter of Trevor and Lucy,
00:25:51
love sister of Ed and Patty, dearest
00:25:54
granddaughter of Val and John and
00:25:55
Trisha, a life surrounded by love and
00:25:58
laughter, sadness beyond words.
00:26:03
>> Did you ever come across Ed's Facebook
00:26:05
post that he wrote?
00:26:06
>> No. So Ed is our eldest and Ed wrote a
00:26:10
post. He was 16. His birthday was the
00:26:13
following week and he wrote a post on
00:26:15
Facebook about how we will not blame the
00:26:18
driver. And it is such a beautiful piece
00:26:21
of writing and I ended up putting it in
00:26:24
resilient grieving
00:26:27
because it was so eloquent and he was so
00:26:31
right. We've never blamed the driver.
00:26:35
It was an horrendous accident. And we I
00:26:39
think we intuitively knew that
00:26:42
blame was a road to hell
00:26:45
>> and more pain and more agony. And
00:26:49
forgiveness
00:26:51
wasn't condoning like we're not saying
00:26:54
it's a good thing, but that actually
00:26:57
forgiveness was a better option for us
00:27:01
all. But it's funny when you read me
00:27:03
that really what I think about is the
00:27:07
less formal truth that Ed wrote that we
00:27:10
as a family I think he talks about it
00:27:13
being like the Swiss cheese kind of
00:27:16
freak event where all everything has to
00:27:19
line up for it to happen. And that is
00:27:22
exactly true. You know I've often
00:27:24
thought that if they just were delayed
00:27:26
by a second,
00:27:27
>> how many seconds of her life would she
00:27:30
have got?
00:27:32
and Ella and Sally.
00:27:39
>> So, you you guys get told by the police,
00:27:42
how do you how do you tell Ed and Patty?
00:27:46
>> In truth, I don't want to talk about
00:27:47
them.
00:27:48
>> Um, too private, too family.
00:27:55
You may not want to talk about this
00:27:56
either, but after that, do you did did
00:27:58
you guys try and put on masks or try to
00:28:00
shield them for how you were feeling?
00:28:01
No.
00:28:01
>> How do you how do you parent your way
00:28:03
around this?
00:28:03
>> Um,
00:28:05
so it's such a good question. How do you
00:28:08
parent your way through this?
00:28:11
I I think so. And now I am thinking from
00:28:14
my own experience and my academic
00:28:17
experience and helping others and what
00:28:19
other people tell me is important and
00:28:21
helps them. For us, we were absolutely
00:28:25
surrounded by love and community and
00:28:28
friends and family to help us all get
00:28:32
through it. People, our community fed us
00:28:34
for six months. I actually as I say that
00:28:37
now I'm kind of embarrassed and appalled
00:28:39
how long I let it go on for but
00:28:43
yeah I just I it when anyone is grieving
00:28:46
I feel so for them that they have to
00:28:49
carry on with the minutia of life and
00:28:51
it's really important to do that because
00:28:52
that is what enables you to carry on but
00:28:55
it's really hard so
00:28:57
>> so what did we do um yeah we I think
00:29:00
we've always been very open and honest
00:29:03
with our emotions like we're not people
00:29:05
to sugarcoat stuff. We're not people to
00:29:09
hide it. There was a lot of crying.
00:29:11
There was a lot of music in our house
00:29:14
straight after. The boys are we're all
00:29:16
very into our music. That's our kind of
00:29:18
family's language. And then I remember
00:29:21
there was a period afterwards where we
00:29:22
didn't have music and then it came back
00:29:24
on and I remember thinking, "Oh, you
00:29:26
know, thank goodness for that." There
00:29:28
was so much music at the funeral. I mean
00:29:29
in all honesty when in the few days
00:29:32
before I don't know when there was a
00:29:34
kind of a practice thing moment and I
00:29:36
remember going in there and saying it
00:29:38
does appear that the funeral has become
00:29:40
a funnel like it's like there's a lot of
00:29:42
fun going on here are we all good with
00:29:45
this but you know 12year-old girls and
00:29:49
school community and so many children
00:29:52
around so I didn't have a problem with
00:29:55
it being a fun at all but there were and
00:29:57
I loved that there was so much music M
00:29:59
>> music has been really big part of our
00:30:01
grieving I think and our boys do
00:30:04
incredible music now. So they are they
00:30:06
produce music they are um in a band and
00:30:11
we're you know we're we go to electric a
00:30:14
every year. Music's a big thing for us.
00:30:19
>> You touched upon the driver before and
00:30:22
uh the the forgiveness aspect. So it was
00:30:26
um a man in his 50s. He avoided jail or
00:30:28
6 months home detention I think. Did the
00:30:30
leniency annoy you?
00:30:33
>> I don't know. I didn't know he had 6
00:30:35
months detention. I I've always kept him
00:30:37
a bit part in my grief process because I
00:30:42
think I felt that knowing more about him
00:30:46
wouldn't help me. But I without a doubt
00:30:48
also no. I don't even feel comfortable
00:30:50
talking about him really. He um he had
00:30:53
children the same as us.
00:30:55
He didn't need us to make it worse.
00:30:57
>> Yeah.
00:30:57
>> And we've all made mistakes in our
00:30:59
lives, you know. I Yeah. I did really
00:31:02
feel like he didn't need us to make it
00:31:04
worse.
00:31:08
>> That's a generous and brave position to
00:31:10
take. I I I I understand the forgiveness
00:31:13
aspect how it's how it's good for you.
00:31:14
There's that saying like anger is like
00:31:16
holding on to a hot rock and hoping
00:31:18
someone else gets burnt.
00:31:19
>> Yeah.
00:31:19
>> Have you heard that one?
00:31:20
>> Yeah. And I agree with that.
00:31:22
>> But it'd be easy. On the flip side of
00:31:23
that, it'd be easy to, you know, hold on
00:31:25
to that anger and resentment and blame,
00:31:27
wouldn't it?
00:31:28
>> Well, not for me. And I don't, you know,
00:31:29
do you know what? I genuinely don't even
00:31:31
like talking about him because I feel
00:31:33
nowadays I was about to say poor him. I
00:31:36
do feel poor him. Like
00:31:39
it for me, I talk about this a lot. I
00:31:44
have my career has completely changed.
00:31:47
My work has completely changed because
00:31:49
of Aby's death. Prior to Aby's death, I
00:31:51
was immersed in resilience psychology
00:31:54
more broadly, but now I do an awful lot
00:31:57
of grief work. So, I'm known, you know,
00:32:00
globally as someone who's lost their
00:32:02
daughter. And I often think about him
00:32:03
and think, you know, poor him. He's the
00:32:05
person on the other end of that. He
00:32:07
didn't mean any of this to happen. So, I
00:32:09
genuinely don't really like talking
00:32:11
about him. And I wish him and his family
00:32:14
well. M
00:32:15
>> I honestly genuinely and I know that our
00:32:18
boys and Trevor thinks exactly the same.
00:32:20
It's not fair to drag him up. It's not I
00:32:23
don't Yeah.
00:32:24
>> Yeah.
00:32:26
>> Um
00:32:28
you what do you do with Aby's bedroom?
00:32:31
>> Such a good question. So um we haven't
00:32:34
done much with Aby's bedroom. We used it
00:32:36
that night. So Chessie, my oldest niece,
00:32:38
said, "Well, I'll go and sleep in Aby's
00:32:40
bedroom. We better get on and use it."
00:32:42
And that was really good. It is used
00:32:44
chaotically with had so many horrible
00:32:48
big boy bodies from Deneden living in
00:32:50
it, staying not living in it, but
00:32:52
staying in it over the years. We've
00:32:54
honestly we've had teenage girls vomit
00:32:56
in it. We've had the lot. So, it's
00:32:58
certainly not a shrine. Having said
00:33:00
that, I it's still got a lot of her
00:33:02
stuff in it. And if I think I think if I
00:33:04
had more time in my life, uh I would try
00:33:08
and sort of tidy it up a bit. But I I
00:33:12
think this is accurate to say that I
00:33:13
have said to the boys, you know, I think
00:33:15
we've all agreed, let we can just leave
00:33:17
it and people go and stay in it. It will
00:33:19
be used. I think we've got about four
00:33:21
people staying in it this weekend. It's
00:33:22
not a big room, so it's well used and
00:33:26
it's still got the her stars on the
00:33:28
ceiling which light up and occasionally,
00:33:32
you know, Trevor's been snoring. Sorry
00:33:34
Trevor, you're going to hate me for
00:33:35
saying this. I have gone and slept there
00:33:37
and then I look up at the stars and it
00:33:39
is such a little girly bedroom. And I
00:33:42
think some of that is important for me
00:33:44
as the only woman in the house to
00:33:46
remember that we did have a girl. It's a
00:33:49
pretty boyish place, our home, our home.
00:33:52
So I think I like having a little place
00:33:54
that is still my girl zone.
00:33:58
>> Was there any consideration of like
00:33:59
keeping it as a shrine? Is that is that
00:34:01
a bad thing to do? I think and uh so one
00:34:04
of the things I feel very strongly about
00:34:06
and this is from the research but my own
00:34:08
lived experience is there is no right or
00:34:10
wrong way to do any of this. So you just
00:34:14
have to find your way that grief is so
00:34:18
deeply personal. We say that it's as
00:34:22
individual as your fingerprint. So that
00:34:24
being so there is no right or wrong way.
00:34:26
The only wrong way is if keeping it as a
00:34:30
shrine is interfering with your own
00:34:33
functioning, your own health, then you
00:34:36
probably do want to change that. So, but
00:34:39
everyone has to find their own time
00:34:41
around these things. I personally, I
00:34:43
think we all I don't know. No, I'm going
00:34:44
to speak from my own experience feel
00:34:46
that
00:34:48
it it probably is got too much of her
00:34:51
stuff in it now, but actually I feel the
00:34:53
same about about Patty's bedroom, which
00:34:55
we've done very little with. So
00:34:57
>> it is just it's more of a time thing
00:34:59
than anything.
00:35:00
>> Yeah.
00:35:00
>> And also why would it would be awful to
00:35:03
go in there. So I think there's probably
00:35:04
a bit of that like there I've just got
00:35:06
better ways to film my time than go
00:35:09
through everything and have to make
00:35:10
those harrowing choices and decisions.
00:35:13
So
00:35:13
>> yeah, it's interesting because it could
00:35:15
just be like a painful reminder of like
00:35:17
what you lost.
00:35:19
>> What what um possessions of hers have
00:35:21
you got that just mean the world to you?
00:35:24
So, that is a great question and I wish
00:35:26
I could remember them now. I've got a um
00:35:28
I went to Peter Alexander for her 12th
00:35:30
birthday and bought this kind of like
00:35:33
robe thing and I wear that when I'm
00:35:36
having coffee in bed in the mornings.
00:35:38
And I am happy, not happy, but I'm
00:35:41
willing to acknowledge it's the only
00:35:43
time I've been into Peter Alexander. And
00:35:46
over the years since I've tried to go in
00:35:48
to buy something and it is such a girl
00:35:51
zone. Have you ever been there?
00:35:52
>> No. you have you in the sausage dog
00:35:55
pajamas.
00:35:56
>> Okay, so you know what I mean? Like it
00:35:57
is literally the kind of pinnacle of
00:36:00
femininity,
00:36:01
>> femininity.
00:36:02
>> So I go in there and I I've over the
00:36:05
years probably about four times I've
00:36:06
walked in there and then just thought
00:36:08
just get out of here. Can't do it. It's
00:36:10
too much for me. Um so I've got other
00:36:13
things of hers as well, but I actually
00:36:14
can't think what they are right now. Um
00:36:17
actually this is I've got hair I've got
00:36:19
hair um clips on today that are hers. So
00:36:22
little things sprinkled through my life
00:36:24
and that
00:36:26
incidentally has been shown by research
00:36:28
to be really healthy. So there is a
00:36:31
theory a bereavement theory called
00:36:33
continuing bonds and it says that
00:36:37
finding healthy ways to keep connected
00:36:40
to those you have lost is actually a
00:36:43
really healthy thing to do and helps
00:36:46
those who are grieving have this feeling
00:36:48
like that they can still love this
00:36:51
person that they're still important
00:36:52
they're still in their lives and um one
00:36:55
of the psychological researchers that I
00:36:57
most admire someone called Bob Nymire He
00:37:00
talks about learning to love in
00:37:02
separation and that really is what it's
00:37:05
about. And I, you know, I've got my
00:37:06
beautiful little dot tattoo here which
00:37:09
is all about her. Um, so she's she's
00:37:12
kind of everywhere.
00:37:13
>> It's funny about the hair clips. E, like
00:37:15
you you sort of sort of just um like
00:37:17
joged your own memory as you were as you
00:37:19
were giving that answer, but when you
00:37:20
put them on this morning, did you
00:37:22
>> Nope. I completely forgotten. I think if
00:37:24
you hadn't asked me that, I would have
00:37:25
forgotten that they were hers.
00:37:28
Do you still dream about her now?
00:37:32
>> I think I've dreamt about her twice
00:37:34
>> ever. Um, same with my mom. Um, um, my
00:37:38
brother who's also died. Um, no, I just
00:37:41
don't dream about them much.
00:37:44
>> When when you see friends of hers that
00:37:46
are like the age that she would be now,
00:37:48
23, 24, like do you do you wonder about
00:37:52
what she'd be doing or is it just too
00:37:53
painful to allow yourself to go there?
00:37:55
No, I definitely wonder about what she'd
00:37:56
be doing.
00:37:57
>> What do you reckon?
00:37:59
>> Oh, so that's so this this probably says
00:38:02
something about our family. I don't ever
00:38:04
think about her career. I've never
00:38:06
thought what she'd be doing for work. I
00:38:08
picture her at festivals on her
00:38:10
brother's shoulders.
00:38:13
I
00:38:15
imagine her walking through the front
00:38:16
door. Trevor imagines all the awful
00:38:19
boyfriends she would have brought home.
00:38:21
He loves to do that cuz it kind of makes
00:38:22
him feel better. Uh he thinks then he's
00:38:25
sort of, you know, dodged something.
00:38:28
So yeah, I um I imagine she would be
00:38:32
willowy and beautiful and sassy and I I
00:38:37
will really imagine sometimes over the
00:38:39
dinner table and Christmas time is
00:38:41
always still pretty awful because, you
00:38:44
know, if we try and do it on our own,
00:38:45
then we're just the three men and me.
00:38:48
And I really miss having that kind of
00:38:52
just the girl who wants to do Christmas
00:38:55
rather than the men who just want to get
00:38:57
through Christmas.
00:39:00
>> They need this book for Christmas.
00:39:02
>> We Yeah, they do.
00:39:03
>> Just one day, fellas.
00:39:04
>> I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:05
>> Uh what did Abby teach you in her 12
00:39:07
years that still guides you today, if
00:39:09
anything?
00:39:10
>> So Abby taught me that life is wild and
00:39:14
precious. And funny enough, in many
00:39:16
ways, Sally, who was Ella's mom, who
00:39:19
died with her, taught me that. She
00:39:20
literally gave me the Mary Oliver poem
00:39:23
about a month before she died. And the
00:39:27
poem says, "Tell me, my dear, what will
00:39:30
you do with your one wild and precious
00:39:32
life?" And
00:39:35
I have really that was everything to me
00:39:38
in the months and years after they died.
00:39:41
Just really realizing how wild life was,
00:39:45
how precious
00:39:47
it was. And then also that preciousness
00:39:51
at some point for a while became really
00:39:54
hard to bear because it it spoke to the
00:39:57
vulnerability of it. And there is such a
00:40:00
big part of us when we're grieving that
00:40:04
has to learn to live with that
00:40:05
vulnerability. And that's so hard cuz
00:40:09
you just realize there's nothing you
00:40:10
can't control everything.
00:40:11
>> I mean these are the this is what these
00:40:14
big events teach us. And whether that is
00:40:17
somebody walking out on you, whether
00:40:19
it's a relationship breakdown, or
00:40:21
whether it is someone you love getting
00:40:25
diagnosed with dementia or any other
00:40:28
kind of motor neuron disease. Um, you
00:40:32
know those life is so bloody
00:40:34
unpredictable. Hey, you know that, I
00:40:36
know that. Everybody, I hope knows that.
00:40:40
>> Yeah. And you can't have the good
00:40:41
without the bad. It's just the it's the
00:40:43
trade-off, isn't it?
00:40:44
>> Yeah. I really believe that. Yeah.
00:40:47
>> Um,
00:40:49
you mentioned Sally before. It was her
00:40:50
husband Shane that was driving. Are you
00:40:52
still in in touch with him? How's he?
00:40:56
>> So, he lost his wife, his daughter, and
00:40:58
was badly injured himself.
00:41:00
>> Yeah. And I won't talk about him. It's
00:41:02
not fair. We are in touch. But I just
00:41:04
always I've always feel sorry for Shane
00:41:07
and the other driver thinking, you know,
00:41:08
they didn't ask for me to be still
00:41:10
talking about this 11 years later.
00:41:13
Can can you do you know there's that
00:41:15
saying comparison is the the thief of
00:41:17
joy and it is but um you know I sort of
00:41:20
find you don't need to compare down to
00:41:21
see someone a lot happier than you that
00:41:23
is a lot worse off does the same thing
00:41:25
work with grief like can you do a grief
00:41:27
comparison like you so can I compare my
00:41:30
grief to yours and think well I'm lucky
00:41:32
in comparison
00:41:33
>> I think lots of people do do that and in
00:41:36
much of my work is about actually
00:41:38
persuading people out of that persuading
00:41:40
people to own their grief that grief is
00:41:43
subjective and you Dom and anyone
00:41:46
listening is allowed to grieve
00:41:49
any aspect of what has happened to them.
00:41:51
I define grief my favorite definition of
00:41:54
grief is that it's the difference
00:41:56
between where your life is and where you
00:41:59
thought it would be. So we grief so many
00:42:03
more things. And in this new book, there
00:42:06
is an activity towards the beginning
00:42:08
where I actually get people to readers
00:42:11
to go through and write down all of the
00:42:14
losses they've been through in their
00:42:16
life, not as a misery inducing exercise,
00:42:20
but to get them to realize actually how
00:42:22
much grief they've already endured. And
00:42:25
then the activity is about unpacking all
00:42:28
of the internal ways of thinking, acting
00:42:30
and being and the external supports that
00:42:32
have enabled you to get through that.
00:42:34
It's essentially a kind of a resilience
00:42:36
digging exercise to go actually you've
00:42:39
already
00:42:40
been through a lot. I mean really once
00:42:43
you get to adulthood you've been not
00:42:45
picked for teams. You've fallen out with
00:42:48
friends. You know you might have lost a
00:42:50
grandparent, a dog, a pet. So sadly
00:42:55
grief and loss are universal and we do
00:43:00
have this ability to get through them.
00:43:02
Not fun, not easy. And but I think it is
00:43:05
really important for people to
00:43:06
understand that grief is subjective.
00:43:10
You're allowed to grieve whatever it is
00:43:13
that you're wishing or missing.
00:43:16
And it's not helpful for people to put
00:43:21
fake hierarchies around it. I don't
00:43:23
think
00:43:27
>> I had a woman on the podcast recently
00:43:28
who's u a powerhouse New Zealand
00:43:30
businesswoman called Dame Joan Withers.
00:43:32
She's on on multitude of different
00:43:35
boards and um she's in her 70s now,
00:43:37
still married to her husband. Uh they
00:43:39
had one son together who was in his 50s
00:43:40
and he uh took his own life exactly 4
00:43:43
months to the day before we did the
00:43:45
podcast and we talked about how she was
00:43:47
doing and she said she's 30 seconds away
00:43:49
from crying at any given moment.
00:43:51
>> Um
00:43:52
>> I'm sure
00:43:52
>> how often Yeah. How many consecutive
00:43:54
days did you cry for? How often how
00:43:57
often do you cry now?
00:43:59
>> I I cried an hour ago before I came in
00:44:02
here, but that wasn't about Abby. Um
00:44:04
that was about I've just said goodbye to
00:44:08
our eldest again um as he heads off
00:44:11
overseas
00:44:12
and I own my crying you know I think
00:44:15
there's nothing wrong with crying we cry
00:44:17
for very good reasons um so what was
00:44:20
your question um do how often do I cry
00:44:24
in the immediate I'd say year after the
00:44:27
girls died I remember going away for a
00:44:30
long weekend with a bunch of girlfriends
00:44:33
and them saying to me, "Wow, you cried
00:44:35
so much more than we thought you did."
00:44:37
And I think that was because they'd had
00:44:39
sustained time with me. So that over a
00:44:42
kind of 40, you know, two or three day
00:44:44
period, they got to see how often I
00:44:46
cried. And I truly think that before
00:44:48
that, they would probably be worried
00:44:49
that I wasn't crying enough because if
00:44:51
they bumped into me in the supermarket
00:44:53
or they saw me out walking the dogs,
00:44:55
they'd think, "Oh, she's not crying.
00:44:57
She's fine. Yeah, she looks like she's
00:44:58
fine." So, I think it was a good
00:45:00
realization. And I had this conversation
00:45:01
with someone who's grieving the other
00:45:03
day that she found exactly the same that
00:45:05
her community, her friends were saying
00:45:07
to you, you're not, you know, you're not
00:45:09
crying. What's the matter? You're not
00:45:10
crying enough. Are you pushing it away?
00:45:13
So, I think it's hard for people to see
00:45:14
how much you cry when they're not with
00:45:16
you all the time. I I'm I'm a I nearly
00:45:19
said I'm a big fan of crying. I'm not a
00:45:21
big fan of crying, but I think there's
00:45:22
nothing wrong or shameful. Um, you know,
00:45:25
we cry because we care and we love.
00:45:28
>> That's why we cry. So, I'll take care
00:45:31
and love alongside crying any day of my
00:45:35
life. About you, do you cry?
00:45:39
>> I'm 53 now. It's um an emotion I'm
00:45:41
leaning into. Like, I can probably count
00:45:42
on like one hand the amount of time
00:45:44
times I cried in my 20s or 30s like
00:45:46
Nana's funeral perhaps and a couple of,
00:45:48
you know, uh some uh fertility treatment
00:45:51
that that didn't go as expected and uh
00:45:54
that was a bit emotional. But now, yeah,
00:45:55
I I cry often. Um, I think any guy that
00:45:58
that's not sort of leaning into it, it's
00:46:00
um it's like it's a an emotion that
00:46:02
you're depriving yourself of, it's
00:46:04
wonderful
00:46:05
>> cuz it's part of
00:46:07
life's whole rich emotional
00:46:12
I don't know. I I'm trying not to say
00:46:14
tapestry because it's such an awful
00:46:16
word, but you know,
00:46:16
>> glorious mosaic.
00:46:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. And actually Karen Ry who
00:46:20
trained me who when I was studying at
00:46:23
the University of Pennsylvania she her
00:46:25
title was the master resilience trainer
00:46:28
of the US Army which I always thought
00:46:30
was pretty cool. She used to say to us
00:46:33
um so there's nothing wrong with any
00:46:34
emotion that a resilient person
00:46:36
experiences all emotions. They just
00:46:38
don't get stuck in one emotion. And I do
00:46:41
think that that is really important. And
00:46:43
and honestly, Dom, sometimes I think
00:46:44
that part of my job now is to get people
00:46:48
to understand that these difficult
00:46:50
emotions like crying, but also anger and
00:46:54
fear and jealousy. All of these are part
00:46:57
of being human. And I think we've become
00:47:00
maybe it's a bit of kind of happyology
00:47:02
and toxic positivity, but I think we've
00:47:04
become really bad at owning them and
00:47:06
dealing with them and knowing how to
00:47:08
deal with them, which is frankly
00:47:09
ridiculous because we live now in an era
00:47:12
of ongoing disruption and challenge and
00:47:15
change and uncertainty and there's a lot
00:47:17
of fear
00:47:19
>> and anger and all of these challenging
00:47:23
emotions. So, we all of us, each of us
00:47:26
need to know how to handle them, what to
00:47:28
do when we're feeling them, not to push
00:47:30
them away, because they're part of being
00:47:32
human.
00:47:34
>> Did did your studies and your knowledge
00:47:36
um help you get through, Abby, or did it
00:47:39
more like help you help the kids and
00:47:41
your husband?
00:47:42
>> No, it definitely helped me without a
00:47:44
shadow of a doubt. It helped me because
00:47:47
I don't think I really understood quite
00:47:50
the the choices that you have around
00:47:53
your thinking and your behavior and your
00:47:56
emotional experience and flexibility
00:48:00
until I'd done that training. So I had
00:48:02
done my masters at the University of
00:48:04
Pennsylvania and then I'd done my PhD.
00:48:07
So I was kind of about what was I about
00:48:10
six years into my study by then. And
00:48:12
mainly the really big difference was
00:48:15
were that it gave me hope because I'd
00:48:17
seen all of the research studies that
00:48:20
show that however awful these things
00:48:22
are, the science shows that most people
00:48:25
can get through potentially traumatic
00:48:27
events using very ordinary processes. So
00:48:30
I had hope. I also knew the importance
00:48:32
of those ordinary processes like just
00:48:35
getting out of bed in the morning,
00:48:37
getting yourself outside, asking a
00:48:39
friend for help, accepting a meal. One
00:48:42
of my um my husband's colleagues, um
00:48:45
lovely Kate, who worked with him, used
00:48:47
to come pick me up and take me swimming.
00:48:48
I never would have got to the swimming
00:48:50
pool on my own. I just wouldn't have
00:48:51
done it cuz I just didn't have the
00:48:53
motivation and the energy. But she would
00:48:55
come in and literally drive me there. So
00:48:58
it's all of those kind of really
00:48:59
ordinary processes. So knowing that
00:49:02
definitely helped me and knowing that I
00:49:05
had to keep this kind of hope alive. Um
00:49:09
so there's really good research around
00:49:13
around um pragmatism and realistic
00:49:16
optimism. So not kind of quashing your
00:49:19
doubts but just that mental agility of
00:49:21
going, "Yep, this is awful. I fully get
00:49:24
that this is awful and we're really up
00:49:25
against it here, but I'm never going to
00:49:27
lose hope that we'll somehow get through
00:49:29
this. And I'm absolutely determined to
00:49:32
do every single thing I can to help us
00:49:35
get through this and try and avoid the
00:49:37
stuff that drags us down.
00:49:40
>> Um, I found a staff article written by
00:49:42
you 10 years ago. So, this was two years
00:49:44
after losing Abby. Do you remember this
00:49:46
or not?
00:49:47
>> What's the title of it?
00:49:48
>> I don't know the title. I've just got
00:49:49
the uh the opening paragraph. Not.
00:49:51
Probably not.
00:49:52
>> Eh,
00:49:53
>> probably not. I probably don't remember.
00:49:56
>> Yeah, I'll read it to you cuz it's be
00:49:57
interesting to see um Yes. See see how
00:50:00
you reflect on your words from 10 years
00:50:01
ago to now and maybe how far you've
00:50:03
come.
00:50:05
I have certain rituals that remind me of
00:50:06
her. I wrap my wet hair in her old
00:50:08
Barbie tail after swimming, just as she
00:50:11
used to. I wear her necklace when I need
00:50:13
extra strength. We continue to celebrate
00:50:15
her birthday at the same spot on the
00:50:16
beach every year, surrounded by her
00:50:18
friends and eating barbecue kettled
00:50:20
chips in her honor. When I aspire
00:50:22
something that reminds me of her that I
00:50:24
know that she would love, I post a photo
00:50:26
on Instagram accompanied by the hashtag
00:50:29
>> Abby would have loved this.
00:50:30
>> Yeah.
00:50:32
>> So, um, go through the chat list again
00:50:34
cuz I thought it was really interesting.
00:50:36
>> There's the Barbie towel.
00:50:37
>> So, the Barbie towel I've lost. Go on.
00:50:39
Next one.
00:50:40
>> What do you mean you lost? just like
00:50:42
>> I just don't know where Eddie I remember
00:50:43
there was a point thinking oh the mommy
00:50:45
towel that meant so much to me it
00:50:47
doesn't seem to be in our world any
00:50:49
longer but you just got to get on with
00:50:50
that
00:50:50
>> that's a good sign though right you're
00:50:51
not like you I suppose if you're in a
00:50:53
bad place you'll be like I need to find
00:50:54
that that towel at all costs like
00:50:56
>> and also if I I've definitely worked
00:50:57
that out over the years if it is
00:50:59
absolutely essential and you don't want
00:51:01
to lose it then don't take it out the
00:51:02
house but that's true for all of us I
00:51:04
learned that out when I was about 18 and
00:51:06
I lost a ring I loved I mean you know
00:51:08
that is just growing up isn't it okay
00:51:09
what's the next one quite funny list.
00:51:11
>> Uh it's beautiful, eh? It's really cool.
00:51:14
Um
00:51:15
>> the necklace.
00:51:15
>> The necklace when you need extra
00:51:16
strength.
00:51:17
>> So I've got the necklace and I do
00:51:18
sometimes wear it. Um I'm not wearing it
00:51:20
today, but I have got a little A on my
00:51:22
necklace and that stands for her
00:51:25
ironically. It also stands my mom an and
00:51:28
my brother Andrew, which is another
00:51:29
whole story. And then next one,
00:51:31
>> her birthday, the same spot on the
00:51:32
beach. We we covered that earlier.
00:51:33
You're going to be at the new 1NZ
00:51:35
stadium this year.
00:51:35
>> Yeah. and we often go, I know exactly
00:51:37
what that spot is and I sat there just
00:51:39
recently and thought of her
00:51:42
>> barbecue kettle chips.
00:51:43
>> So that's what I wanted you to get to.
00:51:45
So I am staying with friends in
00:51:47
Oakuckland at the moment and the other
00:51:48
night I turned up there with a whole
00:51:50
load of things and I intentionally
00:51:51
bought those barbecued kettle chips.
00:51:54
They've changed the wrapper so she
00:51:55
wouldn't recognize them, but I just I
00:51:57
said to them and I bought these because
00:51:59
these were Aby's favorite.
00:52:01
So yep, they're still firmly part of our
00:52:04
lives. We occasionally try and give up
00:52:05
crisps, but that is really too hard for
00:52:07
the home family.
00:52:08
>> Choose your battles. Uh when I spy
00:52:10
something that reminds me of her that I
00:52:12
know she would love, I post it on
00:52:13
Instagram.
00:52:14
>> Very occasionally nowadays I would post
00:52:16
something and #Abby would have loved
00:52:19
this. I got that from some grief site
00:52:21
and it was really lovely at the
00:52:23
beginning just to remember and
00:52:24
acknowledge her. And I remember I used
00:52:26
to do the same with Sally as well
00:52:28
>> and I Yeah. So I wouldn't do that very
00:52:32
often now.
00:52:34
when you you do these things and then
00:52:37
after a while it sort of like wears off
00:52:39
or peters off when you acknowledge that
00:52:41
it's like worn off or peted off. Like do
00:52:44
you have moments of like waves of guilt
00:52:45
or anything initially?
00:52:47
>> No, I don't really feel guilt. I also do
00:52:50
know the grief psychology that says that
00:52:54
when you are grieving and the and the
00:52:56
you first lose the someone you think you
00:52:59
could so there is this activity you can
00:53:01
do where you draw the size of your grief
00:53:04
in a on a piece of paper and then they
00:53:06
ask you to draw the size of your life
00:53:09
around that grief ball and basically the
00:53:12
grief takes up all of your life and then
00:53:14
they say what do you think this these
00:53:16
two shapes are going to look like
00:53:17
further down on the track and most
00:53:19
people draw a much smaller grief bull
00:53:22
and their life the same size and
00:53:24
actually the psychology the counselor
00:53:25
who came up with this who is called Lois
00:53:27
Tonkin and comes from Littleton who is
00:53:29
now sadly not with us she said no it
00:53:32
doesn't work like that what actually
00:53:33
happens is your grief stays the same and
00:53:35
your world your life grows around it and
00:53:38
I think that is really true so I don't
00:53:40
really mind that that I don't do those
00:53:42
things because I do other things and
00:53:44
that is my life growing around it but we
00:53:48
talk about it all the time.
00:53:49
>> Yeah.
00:53:49
>> I mean, not all the time, but
00:53:51
>> Well, yeah. Well, we've been going for
00:53:52
53 minutes today, and it's been mostly
00:53:55
about We haven't even got to, you know,
00:53:56
your incredible TED talk yet. Um,
00:53:59
>> we've been going 53 minutes. Wow.
00:54:02
>> Um,
00:54:04
what's wrong with the way we commonly
00:54:06
talk about the five stages of grief? Did
00:54:08
you before going through this, did you
00:54:10
think there was something in that or is
00:54:12
there something in that? So firstly,
00:54:14
when my mom died in the year 2000, I
00:54:17
think that was probably the first time I
00:54:18
came across the five stages of grief.
00:54:21
>> But what are they again?
00:54:22
>> I know. What are they again? Anger,
00:54:24
denial, bargaining, depression, and
00:54:27
acceptance. So this is Elizabeth Kubler
00:54:30
Ross's model from 1968.
00:54:33
First clue. Um, on top of that, and so
00:54:36
firstly, I want to say Elizabeth Kubler
00:54:38
Ross did such great work because without
00:54:40
her, no one would ever be talking about
00:54:42
grief. So I really respect the fact that
00:54:44
she got people to start engaging around
00:54:47
conversations around grief and she did
00:54:50
that research. So she came up with the
00:54:52
five stages of grief based on her
00:54:55
interviews with men who were in palative
00:54:58
care. So they were the dying. So that is
00:55:01
a really important distinction to take
00:55:03
on board at the beginning. So not for
00:55:05
the bereaveve, not the people left
00:55:06
behind. These were the five things that
00:55:09
the people who were anticipating death
00:55:12
went through according to her
00:55:14
interviews. Quite a small sample. And
00:55:16
now what's happened in the 30 40
00:55:19
something amount of years since is that
00:55:22
we know that actually grief is so much
00:55:25
more complex than just those five
00:55:28
stages. And William Weren who is a
00:55:31
wellrespected grief researcher first of
00:55:33
all would say that acceptance is the
00:55:35
beginning. You've got to accept that
00:55:36
it's happened. But on top of that, in
00:55:39
our grief courses that we run, we often
00:55:41
ask people about all the different
00:55:42
emotions they have experienced. And we
00:55:44
have a whole handout with I've
00:55:46
forgotten, I'm going to say 36 different
00:55:48
kind of experiences and say, tick the
00:55:50
ones that you've had in the last couple
00:55:52
of weeks. And honestly, people will say,
00:55:54
you know, I have felt um overwhelmed.
00:55:57
I've felt proud. I have felt um guilt.
00:56:01
I've felt sadness. I have felt um
00:56:06
inspired by somebody else, you know, a
00:56:08
role model or or thankful and grateful.
00:56:11
Grief is just such an emotionally
00:56:15
complex thing, which is part of the
00:56:17
challenge of it, Dom.
00:56:19
>> People who haven't been through it
00:56:20
before just aren't used to the intensity
00:56:23
and the complexity and the fact that all
00:56:25
of these emotions quite often hit you in
00:56:28
the space of about 5 minutes. So, it's
00:56:31
deeply discombobulating, really
00:56:34
overwhelming, and for most people, it
00:56:37
just puts them in a place that they've
00:56:39
never been before. But my really big bug
00:56:42
bear with the five stage model is
00:56:45
firstly that it is limited. So, we know
00:56:47
that most people don't go through those
00:56:50
five stages. We know that most people
00:56:54
grieve differently. So, I'll say that
00:56:56
again. grief is as individual as your
00:56:59
fingerprint. So I remember when I got my
00:57:01
aunt these resources after Abby died
00:57:03
thinking there's something going wrong
00:57:05
here because if grief is as individual
00:57:07
as your fingerprint then we can't all go
00:57:10
through five stages. That doesn't make
00:57:12
any sense. So that started getting me
00:57:14
thinking and then I went and looked at
00:57:15
all the research and what I found is
00:57:18
that the worst of the five stages is it
00:57:21
makes people think they're doing grief
00:57:22
wrong. So I get that in our grief
00:57:25
courses and in my work and in my social
00:57:28
media DM, you know, all the time people
00:57:31
say to me, I'm doing grief wrong or my
00:57:34
friends making me feel like I'm doing
00:57:35
grief wrong or my teenager is doing
00:57:37
grief wrong because they're not
00:57:39
experiencing all of these. So in that
00:57:42
respect, the five-stage model is
00:57:44
actually
00:57:46
definitely causing harm. You know,
00:57:48
people think there is a kind of set way
00:57:50
to grieve and yet what they need to
00:57:53
understand is that everybody does it
00:57:55
differently and you have to find your
00:57:57
way. Only you can get through
00:58:01
this whole process of relearning to live
00:58:04
in the world. So that is my bug bear
00:58:06
with the five stages. Um that they're
00:58:09
outmoded. They were never designed to be
00:58:13
about actually the people who were left
00:58:15
behind and they are causing more harm
00:58:18
than good. So time I mean literally
00:58:20
academia is like we need to retire this
00:58:23
model. Sadly it's everywhere. So I read
00:58:25
a research study recently that showed
00:58:27
that over 50% of grief sites anything
00:58:31
about grief on the internet talks about
00:58:33
the five stage and doesn't say that
00:58:35
they're wrong. So it's actually really
00:58:37
prevalent and because of that really
00:58:39
harmful.
00:58:41
>> So it could have been fit for purpose 58
00:58:43
years ago when it was
00:58:44
>> Yeah. Or even
00:58:45
>> maybe for what we call anticipatory
00:58:48
grief. So the people who were grieving
00:58:51
but even that talk to anybody who's
00:58:53
anticipating grief they don't just don't
00:58:55
just experience those five things. And
00:58:57
what I should say to you while we're
00:58:58
here is so what happens instead? So the
00:59:02
grief theory that has replaced the five
00:59:05
stages is called oscillation theory. And
00:59:07
this makes so much more sense. So what
00:59:09
we see when we're grieving is that we
00:59:12
typically do two things. You spend time
00:59:14
in the loss zone, the grief zone. You're
00:59:17
grieving. You're lying on the couch.
00:59:19
You're lying on the floor. You can't get
00:59:21
out of bed. You're doing the grieving,
00:59:22
the crying, the misery, all that. But
00:59:24
then of course you do have to get out of
00:59:25
bed. And we call this the rest of your
00:59:27
life, the restoration zone. And what
00:59:29
typically happens is we oscillate back
00:59:31
and forth between grieving and getting
00:59:34
on with life. So at the end of my TED
00:59:36
talk, I said it is possible to live and
00:59:39
grieve at the same time. And when I said
00:59:41
that, I don't think I I probably had
00:59:43
come across oscillation theory. But it's
00:59:45
really important for people to know this
00:59:46
because it gives you permission to
00:59:49
sometimes absorb yourself in grief and
00:59:51
then go, do you know what Dom, I've had
00:59:54
enough of this. I really feel like I
00:59:56
feel so kind of completely wiped out.
00:59:58
I'm going to pick myself up and I'm
01:00:00
going to phone a friend and I'm going to
01:00:02
I don't know go out for a run, go and do
01:00:05
play the piano, whatever it is for you,
01:00:08
go fishing. And what the research is
01:00:11
really absolutely confident on is that
01:00:14
you don't want to spend all of your time
01:00:17
in either of these zones exclusively. So
01:00:20
you don't want to spend all of your time
01:00:22
avoiding it over here and the rest of
01:00:24
your life getting on with it zone. And
01:00:26
you don't want to spend all of your time
01:00:28
in that deep grieving bit. And of course
01:00:31
over time you spend less time here and
01:00:33
more time over here. Does that make
01:00:34
sense?
01:00:35
>> Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Um
01:00:39
around about a year before he passed I
01:00:40
had Nigel letter rest in peace on the
01:00:43
podcast and um it was an incredibly
01:00:46
powerful episode and his his wife
01:00:48
reached out to me after he passed and
01:00:49
invited me along to the funeral and I I
01:00:52
won't be able to do the words. Were you
01:00:53
there? No,
01:00:54
>> I wasn't. But I'm working with Natalie
01:00:56
at the moment, his wife.
01:00:57
>> Um, she read a letter out that he he
01:00:59
wrote for her, you know, my gorgeous
01:01:00
darling Natalie. And there was a again,
01:01:02
he's such a wordssmith, I won't be able
01:01:04
to do it justice, but it was um
01:01:05
>> it was about grief. And it said, "Don't
01:01:07
don't let grief overwhelm you. The world
01:01:09
moves on and it just restricts you into
01:01:11
this tiny little space."
01:01:13
>> Was Yeah, I wish I had the the letter in
01:01:15
front of me because the the words were
01:01:16
incredibly powerful. But how can you how
01:01:19
for some people, how can you not?
01:01:22
Well, it is a choice and it's not an
01:01:24
easy choice. So, let me say that first
01:01:26
and foremost. And it's a personal
01:01:28
choice. Like only you or me or anyone
01:01:31
who's listening or Natalie who I now
01:01:34
work with. So, Natalie and I have these
01:01:36
conversations. Just last week,
01:01:38
eventually you just have to choose to
01:01:39
get off the floor and get on with it.
01:01:42
And you can, you know, if you're
01:01:45
struggling with mental illness, that's
01:01:46
much harder. So, there are times when
01:01:48
it's much harder. And if you're
01:01:49
completely isolated, that is much much
01:01:51
harder. But the research shows that only
01:01:56
about 6 to 12% of people get what we
01:02:00
call prolonged grief disorder, that they
01:02:02
really do get stuck. So for most people,
01:02:05
they do get off the floor and out of the
01:02:08
house and somehow find their way to
01:02:11
carry on. And I just want to respect
01:02:14
Nigel's work cuz Nigel was such a role
01:02:17
model for me. I didn't even know until
01:02:19
after he died that Natalie has told me
01:02:22
how much he loved my works and that has
01:02:24
been an amazing thing for me. And she
01:02:27
and I are now working together on a
01:02:29
brand new project. Um, I don't think
01:02:32
she'll mind me saying this, that, but we
01:02:34
sat down together to work at the same
01:02:37
desk together at my house last week. And
01:02:40
after about half an hour, I looked at
01:02:42
her and just said, "I'm so sorry he's
01:02:45
not here and that I'm here doing the
01:02:47
science communicator bit to her,
01:02:51
psychologist bit." And and then we kind
01:02:55
of also looked at each other and laughed
01:02:56
and I mean, he's so here. He's always
01:02:58
here. I mean, his words are here. And
01:03:00
Nigel and I have so many similar very
01:03:03
similar pragmatism, pragmatic approach
01:03:06
and so many similar phrases. I swear a
01:03:10
lot less than Nigel letter nowadays.
01:03:13
>> Well, most people do.
01:03:14
>> This is true.
01:03:15
>> Don't wear that as a badge of honor.
01:03:17
>> Just isn't that great though. But don't
01:03:18
didn't we? And don't we love his
01:03:20
swearing still? Cuz it has made us
01:03:22
laugh.
01:03:23
>> Yeah. Just a brilliant man.
01:03:24
>> Yeah. All around.
01:03:26
>> What are your thoughts on like an
01:03:27
afterlife? Do you do you believe in an
01:03:28
afterlife or anything like that?
01:03:30
>> I don't really
01:03:31
>> And I'd like not to talk about that
01:03:33
publicly because I don't want people to
01:03:34
jump on
01:03:35
>> Yeah.
01:03:36
>> my religious belief. I do get that
01:03:38
particularly then when I work in America
01:03:39
and then I you know that's all very
01:03:41
tricky. M I had a clear point on the
01:03:43
show a few months ago and he he he
01:03:45
suggest suggested that the the afterlife
01:03:47
can be something like um for you like
01:03:51
copper kettle chips or
01:03:53
>> Harry Styles song coming on the radio or
01:03:56
One Direction song whatever whatever it
01:03:57
means.
01:03:57
>> So I think that keeping them close is
01:03:59
really important and finding ways to
01:04:01
keep them close. I truly do think that
01:04:03
is important and yeah, who knows? But um
01:04:08
I do know she's just not here and so
01:04:10
I've had to learn to live without her in
01:04:13
the everyday.
01:04:15
>> Just for your own sanity.
01:04:17
>> Yeah.
01:04:19
>> Is there any silver lining from an un an
01:04:21
unimaginable tragedy like this?
01:04:24
>> No. But I also think it's the language
01:04:26
around silver lining. Have I has that
01:04:30
shaped me, taught me? Have I learned
01:04:33
from it? I do think that all types of
01:04:38
loss. So, I'm now talking about living
01:04:40
losses, what I call living losses, as
01:04:42
well as a death loss. I truly do think
01:04:46
that they I think of them as the great
01:04:48
revealer
01:04:50
of who and what matters to us most of
01:04:53
this incredible capacity we have for
01:04:56
coping and resilience of
01:04:59
the people who are really there for you
01:05:01
and those who might not be and our
01:05:05
incredible ability to adapt and be so
01:05:09
much stronger than we think we are and
01:05:11
you know that's all born out of the
01:05:12
science but I definitely have experience
01:05:15
that so silver lining don't like that
01:05:17
language not your fault but you know any
01:05:19
kind of benefit finding they call it in
01:05:21
psychology but I can see that I it has
01:05:24
changed me
01:05:26
>> and those some of those learn lots of
01:05:28
those learnings have been really good
01:05:31
>> would I have her back of course
01:05:34
>> in a second
01:05:36
>> thanks for sharing all the stuff
01:05:38
>> yeah [ __ ] should be proud
01:05:40
>> do you think actually I don't I don't
01:05:41
know I don't even know all I know is
01:05:43
what the picture you've painted in the
01:05:44
past hour.
01:05:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. Would you be mom shut up or
01:05:49
>> I I really sometimes think about that
01:05:51
and Trevor and I have that conversation
01:05:53
like is it mom shut up time and I do
01:05:56
really feel for my wider family and
01:05:58
because we've gone through a lot of
01:05:59
losses as a family as a wider family and
01:06:03
so in in this new book in how will I
01:06:06
ever get through this I have talked
01:06:08
about all of those particularly the
01:06:10
living losses. So all of the different
01:06:12
events that have happened in our lives
01:06:13
and how those have shaped us. So, I
01:06:16
definitely have moments where I think
01:06:17
I'm sure that the rest of my family
01:06:19
think Lucy just learn to shut up. But
01:06:23
I'm a writer and that is a problem if
01:06:25
you're a writer. It's how you make sense
01:06:27
of the world. So, you end up
01:06:29
>> writing about it and when you end up
01:06:30
writing about it, then you end up
01:06:32
talking about it.
01:06:33
>> Yeah. Also, yeah, [ __ ] that. Never shut
01:06:34
up. Never shut up. Do you do you think
01:06:36
um Aby's legacy is the the work you're
01:06:39
doing or is it something else?
01:06:40
>> No, I truly think it is. Um and in the
01:06:43
first year after she died, somebody sent
01:06:46
me a paper that was called co-creation
01:06:51
of legacy and it was all about they had
01:06:54
written about their father and how they
01:06:57
his life had changed because of his
01:06:59
father. His name is Joe Caspersonson and
01:07:01
he sent me this paper about how he was
01:07:06
going forward
01:07:07
really intentionally living his life
01:07:10
with his father's you know memory and
01:07:13
values and how his life had changed and
01:07:17
he had made this intentional decision to
01:07:19
go forward creating a co-leacy and that
01:07:22
did have a really big effect on me and I
01:07:23
think that is what I'm doing and in
01:07:26
resilient grieving and my um other grief
01:07:28
book. We we had her she had written her
01:07:32
name somewhere at home and we lift
01:07:34
Trevor got that lifted and created into
01:07:36
a JPEG and it's in the front of the book
01:07:38
and sometimes when I sign the book I put
01:07:40
it Lucy and and then her name is there
01:07:43
because I do kind of feel like we're
01:07:45
doing this work together
01:07:47
>> and it's incredibly important work too.
01:07:49
I think talking about grief is
01:07:51
incredibly important because I see Dom
01:07:54
in my professional work, particularly
01:07:56
with organizations
01:07:59
and in my community work, the
01:08:01
unbelievable amount of harm that comes
01:08:04
from people not being able to talk about
01:08:05
grief.
01:08:06
>> We need to be able to have these
01:08:08
conversations. And frankly, I don't know
01:08:10
how we ended up with grief and grieving
01:08:12
being taboo, but it doesn't serve
01:08:15
anybody well. We all need to be able to
01:08:18
own grief, spot grief, talk about grief.
01:08:22
Like, why wouldn't we be? I mean, it's
01:08:23
the most universal thing. Death and
01:08:26
taxes, you know, they say, don't they
01:08:28
are the like the only deads in life?
01:08:32
Well,
01:08:32
>> how can we not have these conversations?
01:08:34
And why I get why people are nervous
01:08:36
because they don't want to offend. But
01:08:38
in not having them, you are offending
01:08:40
and people are getting hurt anyway. So,
01:08:42
let's just feel the weird and do it
01:08:46
anyway. As somebody um I once worked
01:08:49
with from the army said, he was the um
01:08:51
mental health skills person at the army
01:08:53
and that was his phrase and it was so
01:08:54
good.
01:08:55
>> Just get on and do it. Don't try and
01:08:57
make it perfect.
01:08:58
>> But don't ignore them and don't not say
01:09:00
anything.
01:09:03
>> So, this TED talk you did, three secrets
01:09:05
of resilient people, um I watched that
01:09:08
the other the other day. It's hard to
01:09:10
know how many people have seen it
01:09:11
because there's there's various
01:09:12
duplicates of it online. Do you have any
01:09:15
idea?
01:09:15
>> Um, so the last count that my team did
01:09:18
across platforms, it has been watched 9
01:09:21
million times.
01:09:22
>> Unbelievable. That's incredible. And
01:09:24
it's one of the um every like everyone
01:09:26
knows what a TED talk is. It's one of
01:09:28
the top 100 TED talks of all time.
01:09:30
>> Must watched was was the label. I mean
01:09:32
it is
01:09:33
>> Yeah, it's just surreal. And when I did
01:09:36
it, it was a TED X talk and I did it in
01:09:38
Christ Church and I was really proud to
01:09:41
do it. It wasn't easy to do it because
01:09:42
you have to wrote learn it but I was
01:09:46
felt really honored to be asked to do it
01:09:48
and and that was a TEDex and I was you
01:09:51
know really proud that some people
01:09:53
watched it afterwards and and then co
01:09:57
hit and that just changed everything and
01:09:59
actually TED moved it from the TEDex
01:10:02
platform to TED.com and that was a phone
01:10:05
call I'll never forget cuz I just didn't
01:10:07
see any of that coming and then at the
01:10:08
end of that year it became in the top 20
01:10:10
of 2020. 20, which is another phone call
01:10:12
where Denise, who I've worked with for
01:10:14
years, said to me, "Your TED talks in
01:10:16
the top 20." And I was like, "Nah, no,
01:10:18
it definitely isn't." And she sent me a
01:10:20
screenshot. And I looked and I went, "It
01:10:23
appears it is." This is very strange.
01:10:25
>> So, what year did you do it?
01:10:27
>> 2019.
01:10:28
>> 2019. And you had no notes. There was
01:10:29
Was there an auto quue or
01:10:30
>> No, no notes. I was asked to do it in
01:10:32
2016, but I was writing resilient
01:10:34
grieving and I just finished my PhD like
01:10:36
the year before and I just thought, "Oh,
01:10:39
can't think of anything." I just didn't
01:10:41
want to do it. Like kind of I can't
01:10:42
think of anything worse. Um because you
01:10:45
have to learn it.
01:10:46
>> It's a long 15 minutes. 15 minutes.
01:10:48
>> 16 minutes.
01:10:49
>> Um and it's just really stressful. And
01:10:53
when you wrote learn something, if
01:10:55
anybody casts their minds back to like
01:10:58
when you're at school and you're told to
01:10:59
wrote learn thing, you don't you're not
01:11:02
really in the moment then. So then I
01:11:04
like to speak, you know, I'm pretty raw
01:11:06
and real and I like to just speak and
01:11:10
think as I'm speaking and make sure that
01:11:11
whoever I'm talking to understands what
01:11:13
I'm talking about. Whereas the TED talk
01:11:15
is completely different. You're just
01:11:17
half of you is just remembering and the
01:11:19
other half of you is going, whoa, are we
01:11:21
really doing this? Like wow, Lucy, is
01:11:24
this a good idea? So you're kind of
01:11:25
having that internal dialogue at the
01:11:27
same time as well.
01:11:28
>> So it's it's not a live live event or
01:11:30
anything. It's not streamed live. So you
01:11:32
do it in that room. You get a
01:11:33
>> True. It's not stream live. Yeah.
01:11:35
>> Yeah. So, you get a standing ovation.
01:11:37
How do you feel at the completion of it?
01:11:39
You feel like you've nailed it.
01:11:40
>> No, I just felt exhausted and relieved.
01:11:42
So, I think this is a bit me though
01:11:44
because I felt the same. Someone I've we
01:11:46
did the Coast to Coast a few years ago
01:11:48
and people often say to me, "Wow, how
01:11:50
did you feel at the end of that?" And
01:11:51
I'm like exhausted and relieved. This is
01:11:53
apparently how I feel at the end of big
01:11:56
life events which I slightly wish I
01:11:58
hadn't taken on but managed to somehow
01:12:00
get through.
01:12:01
But then I mean is it life-changing?
01:12:04
Excuse me. When it starts to blow up
01:12:06
online,
01:12:06
>> it's work changing. Yeah.
01:12:09
>> Yeah, definitely. Because um
01:12:10
particularly because we were then in
01:12:12
COVID. So it meant that I was already
01:12:15
doing a fair bit of work online. I mean
01:12:17
mainly we were very familiar with Zoom.
01:12:19
We were doing a lot of meetings. But it
01:12:21
did then mean that I was able to do
01:12:23
webinars and keynotes all over the
01:12:25
world. And so that has enabled me to
01:12:29
share my messages and my insights and
01:12:32
all of this resilience psychology much
01:12:35
more broadly. And that is what I care
01:12:37
about. You know, I am um I'm not a
01:12:39
psychologist. I don't do one- on-one
01:12:41
counseling. What I do instead is write
01:12:44
books, do TED talks, do keynotes,
01:12:47
podcasts. Um I'm lucky enough to be
01:12:50
invited on. And so it is about big
01:12:52
messaging and what I call grief literacy
01:12:55
and well-being and resilience literacy
01:12:58
like people understanding
01:13:00
these concepts
01:13:02
>> and getting the language and the words
01:13:04
and the skills and strategies all of
01:13:07
which are sciencebased not the stuff you
01:13:09
just pick up on Instagram
01:13:11
>> or Tik Toks.
01:13:12
>> Tik Toks I mean I am on Tik Tok but my
01:13:15
stuff is science based.
01:13:17
>> Yeah. Um, yeah, in that talk, yeah, I
01:13:20
mean, a lot of people that are watching
01:13:22
or listening to this podcast would have
01:13:23
seen it, but I'm I'm assuming there's a
01:13:24
lot that haven't either. Um, there's
01:13:26
there's a a part in there where you said
01:13:28
that you needed hope after Abby died.
01:13:31
How can someone find hope in a situation
01:13:33
that seems hopeless?
01:13:34
>> Well, firstly, hope is the most
01:13:36
important aspect of getting through
01:13:39
something. So, in the postquake
01:13:43
Christurch era, living there and working
01:13:46
there. So, I'm from London. We haven't
01:13:47
mentioned that but I don't I don't I
01:13:49
wasn't born here in our
01:13:51
do you know we never told our children
01:13:53
that for a long long time and one day
01:13:54
they said to us why do we go to get
01:13:56
people from the airport who come from
01:13:58
England our family and we laugh Trevor
01:14:01
and I we both said sorry we have
01:14:02
forgotten to tell you that we're
01:14:04
actually not Kiwis that we're English
01:14:06
never told them anyway um so why did I
01:14:09
say
01:14:10
>> was a giveaway for that
01:14:11
>> well not for them but it was yeah it
01:14:13
might be for you
01:14:13
>> do by the way on that do you get lots of
01:14:15
people um pronouncing your last name.
01:14:18
Yeah, the Maui pronunciation.
01:14:20
>> Yeah, we do. We do. Uh, but I think
01:14:22
Trevor's family come from, I don't know,
01:14:23
Holland or Ireland or somewhere. So,
01:14:25
we're definitely home. Now, what were
01:14:27
you asking me? Um, so, oh yeah, hope.
01:14:29
So, really important in that postquake
01:14:32
Christurch era. I remember so my husband
01:14:36
is a builder and I remember once walking
01:14:39
onto the building site and one of the
01:14:41
guys chucking the press the newspaper
01:14:44
across to the other and some and one of
01:14:46
them saying do you want to read Dress so
01:14:48
they used to call it Dress as in it's
01:14:50
the most depressing newspaper
01:14:53
like you know why would you but here it
01:14:55
is heard that that's brilliant
01:14:57
>> and it was I mean it really was true and
01:14:59
uh because what I do is help people out
01:15:02
with the messaging Then I remember being
01:15:04
kind of really cross around that
01:15:06
messaging at the time saying you need
01:15:08
hope to get through these things. And in
01:15:10
the same way after the girls died, we
01:15:13
were the messaging to us was oh it's
01:15:15
going to take you 5 years of your about
01:15:18
5 years really. You might as well write
01:15:20
off 5 years of your life to her loss.
01:15:23
Like it's going to take you that long to
01:15:24
recover. You're now prime candidates for
01:15:26
divorce, mental illness, and family
01:15:28
estrangement. And I remember the same
01:15:30
thing thinking, well, thanks for that
01:15:31
everyone. That's really hopeful. And the
01:15:33
real problem with lack of hope is that
01:15:35
it is hopelessness and helplessness. And
01:15:38
they are strongly associated with
01:15:40
depression and anxiety. And so my job
01:15:44
now is giving people
01:15:47
really the evidence and the facts to go
01:15:49
actually most people get through this
01:15:50
stuff. I'm not sugar coating it. I'm not
01:15:52
saying it's easy. But actually as humans
01:15:56
we are hardwired to cope with stressful
01:16:00
and tough times. We always have. This is
01:16:02
literally our evolutionary DNA. So, you
01:16:06
can get through it. It's not going to be
01:16:08
easy. I'm not going to pretend
01:16:10
otherwise. But you never want to lose
01:16:14
hope. And in keeping hope alive,
01:16:19
you are enabling yourself to kind of do
01:16:23
the next thing that will help you get
01:16:26
there. So, you're kind of setting your
01:16:28
sights on the horizon of believing that
01:16:30
some at some point there will be better
01:16:33
days ahead.
01:16:34
>> Does that make sense?
01:16:35
>> It makes perfect sense. Yeah. You you've
01:16:37
got a way of explaining these things uh
01:16:39
in a real practical uh way and um it's
01:16:43
such an honor to have you here today cuz
01:16:44
I know there's there's so many lessons
01:16:45
here that so many people can get so much
01:16:47
out of. Oh, there's an old cliche um
01:16:50
that what doesn't kill you makes you
01:16:52
stronger.
01:16:53
>> Is is that is that factual or is that
01:16:54
BS? No, I think it is um sadly factual
01:16:59
>> uh for most people like I say. So what
01:17:02
about sort of 6 to 12% of people get
01:17:05
prolonged grief disorder which means
01:17:07
that they really their functioning and
01:17:09
their ability to cope is substantially
01:17:12
impaired over a year. That's the
01:17:15
technical definition that is in the DSM
01:17:19
which is the technical assessment kind
01:17:21
of bible. So, but for the rest of
01:17:24
people, yeah, we do get through it. And
01:17:27
like I said at the beginning, the
01:17:29
research on post-traumatic growth says
01:17:31
that yeah, most people are changed in
01:17:35
ways,
01:17:37
and I hate the word word growth here,
01:17:38
but you know, they have changed
01:17:40
themselves in ways that they can see
01:17:42
that they've learned new things that
01:17:44
they really value. Is that is probably a
01:17:45
better way to say it? I've got a
01:17:47
question for you.
01:17:49
>> Um, have you ever grieved? Have you ever
01:17:50
lost someone you truly love?
01:17:55
Not to the extent you have,
01:17:58
but I I was it's it's quite funny that
01:18:00
you asked this because I was thinking
01:18:01
about this the other day after watching
01:18:02
your TED talk and you your your opening
01:18:04
line, what is it? Stand. If you're able
01:18:05
to stand up, stand up. If you've ever
01:18:07
>> lost someone you truly love, ever had
01:18:09
your heart broken, ever been struggled
01:18:12
through an acrimonious divorce or been
01:18:15
the victim of infidelity? If you've ever
01:18:18
had to cope with mental illness, some
01:18:20
kind of physical impairment or any other
01:18:22
kind of unwanted diagnosis,
01:18:25
if you've ever had a miscarriage,
01:18:27
abortion, or struggle with fertility,
01:18:31
and nowadays I'd add to that. And if
01:18:33
you've ever had to pivot due to a global
01:18:38
crisis, global COVID pandemic, then you
01:18:41
know, then you've been through
01:18:43
something. So, and do you think so if
01:18:45
you haven't had a death loss,
01:18:48
am I right in thinking you've had other
01:18:50
losses, things that have changed?
01:18:51
>> I mean, there has been death loss, but
01:18:53
no one uh like no no immediate sort of
01:18:55
family member, you know, just
01:18:56
grandparents. And that while that's sad,
01:18:58
you know, they were they were old.
01:18:59
>> Um so, nothing like sort of really
01:19:01
sudden or shocking of a family member.
01:19:03
Um but I had a a tumor taken out which
01:19:06
um caused fertility issues and JJ and
01:19:09
myself we were married at the time we
01:19:11
went through years and years of
01:19:12
fertility treatment and um I I I suppose
01:19:15
I didn't consider that grief at the
01:19:17
time. Um, and it definitely is and it's
01:19:19
um I suppose um my way of handling it. I
01:19:22
I I didn't act probably as responsibly
01:19:25
as what I should have and I I I got
01:19:27
angry and frustrated and resented and it
01:19:30
ended up seeping into other areas of my
01:19:31
life and yeah, we ended up breaking up.
01:19:33
M
01:19:34
>> we got a fabulous relationship now, but
01:19:36
um yeah, I suppose that was that was
01:19:38
grief that I didn't acknowledge at the
01:19:39
time
01:19:40
>> just
01:19:40
>> and then it makes it kind of really like
01:19:44
so hard to fathom what's going on when
01:19:45
you've got this whole added layer that
01:19:48
is grief
01:19:49
>> and you don't it's so much I don't want
01:19:52
to say easier but it makes more sense if
01:19:54
someone says to you you are grieving
01:19:56
>> you are grieving the life that you
01:19:58
thought you were going to have
01:20:00
>> and that you're not going to have.
01:20:01
>> Yeah, that's it. That's it. You you just
01:20:03
have a picture of how well for me the
01:20:05
second half of my life was going to look
01:20:07
and then suddenly it's like ah
01:20:09
>> it's all just burnt to burn to the
01:20:11
ground.
01:20:11
>> So we call that a life schema. These
01:20:14
>> pictures mental pictures that we conjure
01:20:18
that we imagine where our life is going
01:20:20
to go. And when a BFT, when a bloody
01:20:23
effing thing comes crashing into your
01:20:26
life, it literally just throws all that
01:20:28
apart. And I often think of that as a I
01:20:30
picture it as a fork in the road. And
01:20:32
we've certainly had Abby's death was
01:20:35
obviously the ultimate fork in a road.
01:20:38
But when it happened that night, I do
01:20:39
remember literally picturing a fork in
01:20:41
the road and thinking you now have to go
01:20:44
down this road that you never saw coming
01:20:48
and you don't have any choice. And
01:20:50
somehow you've got to make a life out of
01:20:52
that. And that is that
01:20:57
short. You've just got to keep going
01:20:59
somehow, don't you?
01:21:00
>> Yeah.
01:21:02
>> Well, you just do,
01:21:03
>> especially if you've got two other kids,
01:21:04
which you did.
01:21:05
>> And I was lucky enough. And a husband
01:21:07
and community and family
01:21:09
>> to look after me and dogs.
01:21:12
>> You and I were talking about dogs before
01:21:13
I came in here today. And you've got
01:21:14
your gorgeous little I forgotten.
01:21:17
>> Oh, yeah. Kanye Sydney. Yeah. That's um
01:21:19
that's some grief that I'm anticipating.
01:21:21
>> And us too. We've got Jack Hone who is
01:21:23
14 and is on, you know, he's a Jack
01:21:26
Russell. So, we do sometimes laugh and
01:21:28
think he'll probably last another four
01:21:29
years cuz they can do that, but he's
01:21:31
probably on his last legs and
01:21:34
>> you know that he's been one of the great
01:21:35
loves of my life and I'm sure. How old
01:21:38
is Kanye?
01:21:38
>> He's 12 now.
01:21:40
>> So, you know, same.
01:21:41
>> I didn't even want that [ __ ] dog.
01:21:43
>> Yeah. How much do you love him?
01:21:45
>> Oh my god, Lucy.
01:21:47
Maybe a month after having him, I
01:21:49
started googling life expectancy of
01:21:50
Sydney Silks cuz I just knew um just how
01:21:54
much it was going to hurt when that time
01:21:56
um unfortunately comes. Um but again, I
01:21:59
feel embarrassed even like talking to
01:22:01
you about pet grief.
01:22:03
>> I see. Don't be cuz I truly know and we
01:22:06
I know that I could have both my sons,
01:22:08
our sons, and Trevor in here now and we
01:22:10
are all dreading Jack dying.
01:22:13
>> I've had him We've had him for 14 years.
01:22:15
We had Abby for 12. He's a family
01:22:17
member. So is Lulu, too. Sorry, Lulu, if
01:22:21
you're listening. The other dog who's
01:22:23
nine and gets no air time at all. Um,
01:22:26
but they are family members. I think
01:22:28
it's really important that people don't
01:22:30
diminish that grief. This book is about
01:22:33
what we call disenfranchised grief. All
01:22:35
of the many losses and griefs that we go
01:22:38
through in our lives that either we
01:22:42
disenfranchise ourselves or other people
01:22:45
do or society does, meaning they just
01:22:47
don't count. We don't acknowledge them
01:22:49
as grief. And pet loss is one of the
01:22:51
biggest forms of disenfranchised grief.
01:22:54
Did you watch the um what's his name?
01:22:57
Oh, Lewis um Formula 1.
01:23:00
>> Lewis Hamilton.
01:23:00
>> Yeah. What he said about his dog?
01:23:02
>> Oh, oh my god. I I liked a couple of
01:23:05
posts and now it's the algorithm is just
01:23:06
feeding me all of it and I'm not mad
01:23:08
about it. He's um he's done wonders this
01:23:10
year shining a light on pet grief
01:23:12
>> and pet grief is disenfranchised grief.
01:23:14
I mean it literally this is what I wrote
01:23:16
this book about is that too many people
01:23:18
are grieving things that they think that
01:23:20
they're not allowed to grieve and they
01:23:22
don't know they're grieving. So, you
01:23:24
know, this is why I wanted to write this
01:23:28
new book to say to people
01:23:30
if you know you're grieving, then hang
01:23:33
around for a bit cuz I can tell you a
01:23:34
little bit about grief and then you can
01:23:36
understand it a bit more. And if you
01:23:37
understand it a bit more, you can talk
01:23:39
about it a bit more and then you will
01:23:41
feel less isolated and judged because
01:23:44
that's the problem with people not
01:23:45
understanding it is that they feel
01:23:48
completely isolated like there's
01:23:50
something wrong with them and really
01:23:51
judged. And people tell me that Dom in
01:23:53
my work all the time they come to me
01:23:55
saying my friends don't get me my
01:23:57
partner doesn't get me you know I feel
01:23:59
really judged and lonely like the
01:24:02
loneliness in grief is just huge.
01:24:06
>> I think I sort of found that with the um
01:24:08
unsuccessful IVF and the fertility stuff
01:24:10
cuz you tell people about it and some
01:24:12
people would even make jokes well [ __ ]
01:24:13
you can have one of my kids if you want
01:24:15
which no one would ever make a joke like
01:24:17
that to someone that's lost a child. No.
01:24:20
And partly they probably do because they
01:24:21
don't know how to respond.
01:24:24
>> But
01:24:25
you can see then and sense in your own
01:24:27
life how isolating it can be when you
01:24:30
can't really talk about it.
01:24:33
>> Yeah. How did people react to you guys?
01:24:36
>> Some people actively avoid talking about
01:24:38
it.
01:24:39
>> No, I don't think anybody ever actively
01:24:41
avoided us. I don't remember that. I
01:24:44
know other people who have lost children
01:24:46
who've said literally they've seen
01:24:47
people cross to the other side
01:24:49
>> because they just don't know what to
01:24:50
say.
01:24:51
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:52
>> Yep. And then, you know, I've also had
01:24:54
clients who have said people have
01:24:56
avoided them because they almost feel
01:24:57
like they think it's contagious like,
01:24:59
you know, just can't go there anyway.
01:25:01
Yeah. It is a real challenge though
01:25:03
talking to people about grief and
01:25:05
finding the right things to say. So the
01:25:07
only thing I'd say is just say something
01:25:09
and it's okay to say I don't know what
01:25:11
to say to like you know just feel the
01:25:14
weird and do it anyway.
01:25:16
>> Yeah. Is that the best thing to have in
01:25:17
your back pocket as a line to say? Uh
01:25:19
>> yeah. If you've got nothing else to say
01:25:21
and and very often in our courses when
01:25:23
we talk to people about grief and they
01:25:25
say that people have said the most awful
01:25:27
things to them, we I will tend to say to
01:25:30
them that's very often more about them
01:25:33
and their understanding of and
01:25:36
experience of grief than actually about
01:25:38
you. Does that make sense?
01:25:39
>> Yeah. that people very often really kind
01:25:42
of shy away from it or struggle with
01:25:45
their response because of their own
01:25:47
experience not because of what you're
01:25:49
going through.
01:25:52
>> I've heard you use the term doing grief
01:25:54
well.
01:25:55
>> What does that mean?
01:25:56
>> Yeah. Have I? That's an interesting um
01:25:59
so
01:25:59
>> I I love it by the way.
01:26:00
>> Thank you. Well, I um I think what I'm
01:26:03
all I've always been really wary of not
01:26:06
putting more pressure on people who are
01:26:08
grieving. So I'm again talking about
01:26:10
living losses here. You don't need a
01:26:13
funeral to be grieving. And I'm talking
01:26:14
about death losses. So
01:26:18
technically from an academic standpoint,
01:26:20
all of my work is about healthy
01:26:22
adaptation to loss is the academic term.
01:26:26
So that's kind of unwieldy. So then
01:26:28
really what I'm talking to people about
01:26:30
is finding their way through whatever
01:26:32
they're facing so that they can
01:26:34
hopefully get to better days ahead. Um
01:26:37
what was my line again that you used?
01:26:39
doing grief as well as you can.
01:26:41
>> Um, and after Abby died, I remember
01:26:43
thinking
01:26:45
>> like my only goal Dom was
01:26:48
>> mainly functioning. Like if I could just
01:26:51
somehow kind of get through the day and
01:26:54
function as well as we could, then that
01:26:56
was a pretty lofty goal. So lowering the
01:26:59
bar and being kind to yourself and
01:27:00
expecting less when you're grieving is
01:27:03
really important. I think people expect
01:27:06
to get through it too quickly. Whether
01:27:08
that's themselves or other people feel
01:27:10
like, "Come on, you should be over it by
01:27:12
now." Well, guess what? It takes a long
01:27:14
time.
01:27:17
>> No one said that to you, though, did
01:27:18
they?
01:27:19
>> No, I don't feel that people have really
01:27:21
said that to us. But I know
01:27:22
>> I suppose a variation of that is you
01:27:24
talked about the the girls trip you had
01:27:26
like a year afterwards and that people
01:27:28
made a comment about how much you were
01:27:29
crying.
01:27:29
>> No, see, I took that as a not as them
01:27:32
judging me. They were actually kind of
01:27:34
delighted to see how much I was crying.
01:27:36
Like they were surprised in a good way.
01:27:38
It made them think, "Oh, actually you
01:27:40
are really grieving. You're not
01:27:42
>> I thought you were doing too well."
01:27:43
>> Yes. And people like people definitely
01:27:45
It's hard to do grief well. She says,
01:27:48
you know, inverted commas. Because
01:27:50
everyone's got different opinions on
01:27:51
what you should do and everyone does it
01:27:53
differently. So even within couples who
01:27:55
come and see me very often he or she
01:27:58
will say, "Well, my partner's like, "I'm
01:28:00
really worried about them." And I'm
01:28:02
like, well, your just partner is doing
01:28:03
it differently. So, they might be out on
01:28:05
their on their bike every day, or you
01:28:07
might be out in the garden, and you
01:28:10
might be an emotional griever doing lots
01:28:12
of crying, and they might be what we
01:28:13
call an instrumental griever, which
01:28:16
literally means being much more kind of
01:28:18
active around it, like chopping logs,
01:28:20
doing the gardening, running, pounding
01:28:22
the pavements, swimming, you know,
01:28:24
whatever it is. So, everyone grieavves
01:28:26
differently. And if everyone could just
01:28:28
get that message, there'll be a lot less
01:28:30
pain out there.
01:28:32
>> Um, you mentioned the phrase act of
01:28:35
grieving. Uh, your husband Trevor, he's
01:28:37
a builder. When did he go back on the
01:28:39
tools after Abby?
01:28:40
>> So Trevor, if he was here, would say to
01:28:42
you that I I think we both went back to
01:28:44
work around 6 weeks and I I have heard
01:28:47
him say he felt that he went back too
01:28:49
soon. So then in truth, I don't know
01:28:52
what happened. Did I maybe he spend a
01:28:54
bit more time at home? But we we were
01:28:56
lucky because he owns his own business.
01:28:58
I own my own business and so and I was
01:29:01
doing the PhD
01:29:03
>> but so we we kind of were able to do
01:29:06
that on our own terms. So less you know
01:29:09
I mean yeah it was you just got to do it
01:29:11
on your own terms
01:29:12
>> and only you know when is the right time
01:29:15
to go back.
01:29:16
>> But I do quite a lot of work with
01:29:17
organizations helping them understand
01:29:20
how a kind of a re-entry program for
01:29:23
people who are grieving. And one of the
01:29:25
very helpful things I say to them is
01:29:27
don't go back to work on a Monday. Much
01:29:29
better to start work, go back on a
01:29:31
Thursday where you've only got to kind
01:29:33
of limp through Thursday and Friday and
01:29:34
then you get to the weekend.
01:29:36
>> Don't go back to the office first time
01:29:38
and go back to work. Go and have a
01:29:40
wrecky. Go and have a coffee with
01:29:43
someone, you know, your manager. Meet up
01:29:45
with the team. go into the office before
01:29:48
you go actually back to work because
01:29:51
that allows you to do that kind of
01:29:53
familiarization and for everyone else
01:29:56
there to see you and work out what
01:29:57
they're going to say and how they're
01:29:58
going to greet you. And then if you are
01:30:00
the grieving person, you definitely want
01:30:02
to have a plan of where you can escape
01:30:04
to, like a safe place, and that might be
01:30:06
a park bench outside or a coffee shop or
01:30:09
the L, but you need somewhere you can
01:30:11
run and hide to. Big sunglasses can be
01:30:14
handy. Airbuds, you know, air, you know,
01:30:16
headphones, really handy, just ways to
01:30:18
kind of tune out. And one of the other
01:30:20
things I want to say that people often
01:30:21
don't know about um juggling being able
01:30:25
to grieve and not being able to grieve,
01:30:26
like if you're at work, is that
01:30:29
strangely, I didn't really believe this
01:30:30
at the beginning, but I have seen people
01:30:32
use this really effectively. You can
01:30:34
delay your grieving. So, you can be at
01:30:36
work all day where you just can't grieve
01:30:37
and you want to cry and you think, well,
01:30:39
I can't do that now cuz I'm about to go
01:30:40
into a team's meeting. So you can put it
01:30:43
off and then go home in the evening and
01:30:45
get out the pictures, put on some music,
01:30:47
light a candle, kind of whatever it is
01:30:49
that works for you and let yourself
01:30:52
grieve kind of on your own time frame,
01:30:55
which sounds really fake and like it
01:30:58
wouldn't work, but I've had so
01:31:01
scheduling grief. I've had so many
01:31:02
people say to me that has really worked
01:31:04
for them. It just gives them that
01:31:05
feeling of having a bit more control
01:31:07
over it.
01:31:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose like being
01:31:09
being in the work environment or active
01:31:12
grieving like mountain biking or
01:31:13
whatever, it forces some mindfulness. So
01:31:15
it means you have to focus on a
01:31:16
different task.
01:31:17
>> Yep. And when I say when I talk about
01:31:19
active grie grieving, really all I'm
01:31:21
talking about is being proactive. So one
01:31:24
of the problems for me about the five
01:31:27
stages of grief when we were first given
01:31:29
all of the grief literature was it felt
01:31:31
like everyone just kept telling me what
01:31:33
was going to happen to me. So all of you
01:31:36
know the feelings we were going to
01:31:37
experience and I remember thinking I
01:31:40
want to know what I can do like
01:31:43
seriously I'm desperate to know that I
01:31:46
am doing absolutely everything I can to
01:31:49
try and keep this family together and
01:31:51
keep the show on the road. So and that's
01:31:53
what I mean by proactive grieving. So
01:31:55
you basically put yourself
01:31:57
>> in that kind of proactive stance of
01:32:00
going okay what can I do to help myself
01:32:04
here?
01:32:05
Are you happy?
01:32:07
>> I'm really happy. Yeah. Last time
01:32:09
someone asked me that if I was happy, I
01:32:11
then cried, which made me kind of laugh.
01:32:13
I was like, I never actually managed to
01:32:14
say, even though I'm crying, I'm really
01:32:16
happy. Yeah, I'm really happy. And that
01:32:18
is a question. So, this new book, how
01:32:20
will I ever get through this? Is all
01:32:22
about the questions that people ask me
01:32:23
when they are going through a big life
01:32:25
event. And I, Dom, kept feeling like
01:32:28
people were always asking me the same
01:32:30
questions. So, as a good researcher, I
01:32:32
thought, okay, I'm going to go and put
01:32:33
this to the test, go and ask people. So,
01:32:36
I did a research study in um the end of
01:32:39
2025 where we asked people all over the
01:32:42
world, what are the questions you
01:32:43
typically ask yourself when you're going
01:32:45
through a nondeath loss. So, I call
01:32:48
those living losses. Academically,
01:32:51
they're called NDLS, non-death losses.
01:32:54
Not a very sexy term. So, we thought
01:32:56
we'd call those living losses. So when
01:32:59
we asked all these people what sort of
01:33:01
things questions come up for them, I
01:33:05
then wrote this book around the first 10
01:33:08
questions that typically swirl around in
01:33:11
people's heads when they're going
01:33:12
through a big life event that doesn't
01:33:15
involve a funeral. So the number one
01:33:17
question is the name of this book. It
01:33:20
was the number one question was how will
01:33:22
I ever get through this? And I kind of
01:33:24
expected that and I knew they would say
01:33:26
something about physical exhaustion, but
01:33:29
I didn't expect the number two question
01:33:31
was why do I feel so physically
01:33:34
exhausted? Cuz people don't expect that
01:33:36
in grief.
01:33:37
>> And the others were things like why do I
01:33:39
feel so lonely? The question you just
01:33:41
asked me, will I ever be happy again?
01:33:45
Who am I now? How did this happen to me?
01:33:48
And so for each chapter in this book, I
01:33:51
then respond to those questions in ways
01:33:55
that I've seen help people in my courses
01:33:57
over the years, but also from the kind
01:33:59
of research evidence space um and my
01:34:02
lived experience and all my clients
01:34:04
lived experience. So the questions keep
01:34:06
coming sadly and you have to find your
01:34:08
way to answer them.
01:34:09
>> Yes, there must have been moments uh
01:34:11
days or weeks or months where you
01:34:13
wondered if you'd ever be happy again.
01:34:15
>> I definitely were. I definitely remember
01:34:17
standing in our bedroom and thinking I
01:34:19
don't like my life now
01:34:21
>> and I don't want to do this. And when I
01:34:24
talk to people who are going through
01:34:27
really tough times when their assumptive
01:34:31
world, you know, life as they knew it
01:34:33
has been completely smashed apart. They
01:34:36
tell me that how exhausting it is. And I
01:34:39
so remember this that you feel like
01:34:40
every single day you have to climb a
01:34:43
mountain and every single morning you're
01:34:46
down the bottom again and you just have
01:34:48
to keep doing it over and over again.
01:34:51
And that kind of ability to get through
01:34:53
it, to keep going and get out the other
01:34:57
side is based on the choices you make
01:35:02
that enable you to keep going in the
01:35:04
micro moments of each day. like pretty
01:35:06
basic choices.
01:35:08
>> Phone a friend, get out the door.
01:35:12
>> For you personally, how long did you
01:35:13
have to make those micro choices every
01:35:15
day before it becomes um
01:35:17
>> I still makeine I still make those micro
01:35:20
choices every day. I think people think
01:35:21
that mental so we're now talking mental
01:35:23
health like how do we keep our mental
01:35:27
health and well-being as good as we can
01:35:29
and you know I'd send this question back
01:35:32
to you as well that
01:35:35
that just like physical health you have
01:35:37
to work on your mental health
01:35:39
>> annoyingly all the time like you can't
01:35:42
just go to the gym once and think woohoo
01:35:45
I'm now fit one run Dom we're all done
01:35:49
because life's not like that So you have
01:35:51
to keep doing it. And like only this
01:35:54
morning, I literally woke up, saw
01:35:57
something that made me want to write a
01:35:59
blog. So I literally sat in bed with my
01:36:02
laptop and wrote a blog. And then I
01:36:04
thought, "Oh wow, it's now half past 8.
01:36:06
I haven't really got time to get out and
01:36:08
do any exercise, go for a walk, do
01:36:10
anything." So I was about to get in the
01:36:12
shower and get my work clothes on and go
01:36:14
off to work. And I thought, "Stop it.
01:36:16
you actually even if you get out for a
01:36:17
quarter of an hour you will your brain
01:36:19
and your body and everything will thank
01:36:21
you for the rest of the day your sleep
01:36:23
will be better so I made myself go and
01:36:27
get out in the end I spent 40 minutes
01:36:29
outside and I was just so grateful so it
01:36:32
is that's what I mean about choosing
01:36:36
about the importance of your choices in
01:36:39
terms of the way you think act and be in
01:36:42
these kind of micro moments of everyday
01:36:45
Okay. So, it would be the same for you
01:36:47
like what do you do that
01:36:49
keeps you going and keeps you healthy
01:36:52
and maintains your sanity and prevents
01:36:54
burnout. Tell me what do you do?
01:36:56
>> Oh, I I need some daily exercise. It's
01:36:58
like a cornerstone for me. Uh yeah, the
01:37:00
hard bit every morning is um getting out
01:37:02
of bed and not hitting that snooze
01:37:04
button. Um but it's something I never
01:37:05
regret. I say to people, I see you're
01:37:08
wearing a garment, you're a runner as
01:37:09
well. Um you you never feel worse after
01:37:11
getting out for a run or a walk or some
01:37:13
fresh air. So true. And I once um heard
01:37:16
a lady in her 70s say, "You never regret
01:37:19
a swim." And that's my other line in my
01:37:22
head. If I think I can get wet, then I
01:37:24
just know that I will always feel better
01:37:26
for that for the rest of the day.
01:37:28
>> Yeah.
01:37:29
>> And and it's an effort, you know. I
01:37:31
never want to glorify exercise because
01:37:34
frankly, I hate it much of the time.
01:37:37
>> I never want to glorify exercise. Why?
01:37:40
Why?
01:37:40
>> Because I don't. It's exhausting. So, I
01:37:42
had this conversation years ago with
01:37:44
Professor Grant Scoffield, who you must
01:37:46
know, Grant, who was um he was he is is
01:37:49
or was professor of public health at AUT
01:37:51
when I was doing my PhD. And he used to
01:37:54
literally say to me, I mean, what's not
01:37:56
to love about exercise, Lucy, you get
01:37:57
out there. He's an iron man. So, I'm
01:37:59
like, well, Grant, you are in a very
01:38:01
different bubble to me.
01:38:03
>> I hate the thought of going for a run
01:38:05
when I put my trainers on. I hate
01:38:07
everyone around me. I hate the whole
01:38:09
situation. But once I'm out the door and
01:38:12
I do I'm pretty kind to myself. So I
01:38:14
think I'll go and run for five minutes
01:38:15
and then I walk a bit and then I run a
01:38:17
bit more. My knees kind of hurt so I'm
01:38:19
lowering the bar. But you just feel so
01:38:22
much better. But I don't ever find it
01:38:24
easy. And I remember Trevor, my husband,
01:38:26
years ago when I was doing my PhD, he's
01:38:28
a reluctant exerciser too and he said to
01:38:30
me, "I'm going to do a PhD in why I hate
01:38:33
exercise."
01:38:36
Did I say we were quite pragmatic?
01:38:40
What are you most afraid of?
01:38:42
>> Um, oh,
01:38:47
I'm really thinking. I know the answer
01:38:49
to this question. I'm trying to work out
01:38:51
if I want to say it.
01:38:54
Um, what I'm most afraid of
01:38:57
would be something happening to the
01:38:58
boys.
01:38:59
>> Mhm.
01:39:01
Which is why saying goodbye is always
01:39:03
really hard because I said goodbye to
01:39:05
one child and never saw her alive again.
01:39:16
>> Do you have any regrets?
01:39:20
>> Not really.
01:39:21
>> Um not with Abby. No. And I wrote about
01:39:24
that in resilient grieving in the I
01:39:27
think it is the penultimate or the last
01:39:28
chapter. I I talk about the fact that
01:39:32
people I've heard people say they do
01:39:34
anything for one
01:39:36
last kiss or one more hour. And I've
01:39:40
always thought that one last kiss or one
01:39:43
more hour is no good to me. It's a
01:39:45
lifetime that I will miss. And I don't
01:39:48
need that one more hour because she knew
01:39:50
she was loved. you know, little dear
01:39:53
Abby Hone had everything. She had a
01:39:56
family who loved her and friends who
01:39:57
loved her who and she knew it. Um, I saw
01:40:02
a text from her. I saw a photo of it the
01:40:05
other day where she said something to me
01:40:08
and I said to her, "Oh, you sound so
01:40:10
like dad." And she said, "I want to be
01:40:13
like dad."
01:40:16
Wow.
01:40:18
So, you know, she knew she had a good
01:40:21
life. So I don't have any regrets with
01:40:24
her. No, really.
01:40:26
>> Lucky me.
01:40:29
>> And lucky her as well.
01:40:32
>> And and that would be my message. And
01:40:33
I'd definitely write that in this book.
01:40:35
I mean, it's a long time since I wrote
01:40:36
it. I've rewritten it and updated it,
01:40:38
but it's still a long time since I first
01:40:40
wrote it in 201
01:40:43
15. But that is the message of that is
01:40:46
so even if you have regrets that you
01:40:49
didn't tell the person who's died
01:40:51
already how much you love them, go and
01:40:53
tell the people who are still alive
01:40:55
today.
01:40:56
>> Make sure everybody knows that you love
01:41:00
them. Those people you love. Like don't
01:41:02
hold back. Do you know the five regrets
01:41:04
of the dying?
01:41:05
>> Oh, I have. Yeah. Remind me.
01:41:08
>> So they're in both of my books. Um, so
01:41:11
I'm going to probably struggle to
01:41:12
remember them, but one of them is the
01:41:14
first is not the first, but of the one I
01:41:16
always remember first is I wish I hadn't
01:41:18
worked so hard.
01:41:20
>> It's a good reminder to us all, isn't
01:41:21
it? Um, one is I wish I had lived a life
01:41:25
true to myself and not that which other
01:41:29
people
01:41:31
expected of me. One is I wish I'd stayed
01:41:33
in touch with my old friends.
01:41:36
One is I wish I would let myself be
01:41:39
happier. And I think that is such an
01:41:41
important lesson. That word let hits me
01:41:44
every time. So basically by saying that
01:41:46
people are saying I realize now that
01:41:49
happiness was a choice
01:41:51
>> and I wish I'd let myself be happier. I
01:41:54
think that is so critical. And I think
01:41:56
the other one is um I wish I'd had the
01:41:58
courage to express my true feelings.
01:42:01
>> So you know those are closely aligned.
01:42:04
Yeah. So
01:42:06
>> I suppose like you never know when your
01:42:07
last you can have your last conversation
01:42:09
with someone. So yeah, maybe anything
01:42:11
that you have to say, you should say it
01:42:13
immediately.
01:42:14
>> Yeah. And I think our young people are
01:42:16
better at doing that. I know that um
01:42:18
>> my boys certainly are with their
01:42:20
friends. They're really there for their
01:42:21
friends.
01:42:22
>> Have you battled with it with the stiff
01:42:24
upper lip English thing?
01:42:27
>> Keep calm and carry on.
01:42:28
>> Yeah, it's such a good question because
01:42:29
we are English. No, I think we're very
01:42:31
not English in that sense. And and I
01:42:33
really I like to remember that when I
01:42:36
first met my husband, Trevor, one of the
01:42:38
things I loved about him most was how
01:42:40
open and honest he was and with his
01:42:43
emotions. And so I think that is kind of
01:42:46
one of the things that saved us in our
01:42:48
darkest days is that he's really open
01:42:51
and honest. He's, you know, brutally
01:42:53
open about his emotions. He doesn't hide
01:42:55
them and he wears his heart on his
01:42:58
sleeve as do our boys and I'm really
01:43:00
grateful for that. So, we're Yeah, we
01:43:02
are open and honest.
01:43:04
>> I think that's real masculinity in a
01:43:06
way, isn't it?
01:43:07
>> I do, too.
01:43:08
>> I truly do. Yeah. To be able to be
01:43:10
comfortable with that.
01:43:12
>> If if Trevor and the boys were in the
01:43:14
next room talking about you behind your
01:43:16
back, what three words would you like
01:43:17
them to use to describe you?
01:43:20
>> Oh, such a What would they say?
01:43:23
>> Um, I think they'd say hardworking. M
01:43:27
>> um
01:43:28
I don't know what the word is here, but
01:43:31
I hope that we all believe in following
01:43:36
your own your dreams and and kind of
01:43:38
plowing your own path.
01:43:41
>> Um and yeah, that I that I love them and
01:43:46
you know they love that love is love and
01:43:48
music.
01:43:50
>> Yeah, love and music are big for us.
01:43:51
>> Yeah. you you got a little emotional
01:43:53
before about dropping um your son off at
01:43:55
the airport. Um
01:43:57
did you express to him the like the
01:43:58
reason why you you were so emotional
01:44:00
about that or did you sort of is he
01:44:02
aware of that?
01:44:03
>> I have I have done other times. He
01:44:05
actually wasn't at the airport and um
01:44:07
>> where's he off to?
01:44:08
>> So soon he will go back to the Caribbean
01:44:11
where he's working. He's just working
01:44:13
for his work visa at the moment. And
01:44:15
that's an amazing story cuz he's working
01:44:17
with one of my oldest friends who
01:44:20
literally was at my um christristening.
01:44:23
So I literally known this guy for years
01:44:25
and they are doing yaching media in the
01:44:28
Caribbean. So I'm thrilled for him. So I
01:44:31
definitely, you know, I couldn't be
01:44:32
happier. But I just miss him and it's
01:44:35
that awful bit of saying goodbye because
01:44:38
I'm thrilled that he's off doing that.
01:44:40
I've read some really interesting came
01:44:43
across some really interesting research
01:44:45
last year about secure attachment which
01:44:47
is kind of the foundation for resilience
01:44:49
and well-being. You want to feel like
01:44:52
you belong and you you can make these
01:44:54
solid connections and that you are
01:44:56
attached to other people. And the piece
01:45:00
that really intrigued me was that this
01:45:03
um man I heard speak in America was
01:45:06
talking about that a secure attachment
01:45:08
actually had two aspects to it. Caring
01:45:11
so that you feel cared for. And I love
01:45:13
this bit. Daring too, so that you feel
01:45:16
confident enough to go out to flee the
01:45:19
nest to go out into the world and do
01:45:21
your thing knowing that you can come
01:45:22
back. So, I'm thrilled that our boys
01:45:26
have that daring and you know, I'm I
01:45:29
will always cry when I say goodbye to
01:45:31
them because I love them. But I'll I you
01:45:35
know, that's just part of life and
01:45:36
there's nothing wrong with crying. That
01:45:37
is just me because I love them and I'm
01:45:39
caring and I'm a mom and I'm very lucky
01:45:42
to be a mom.
01:45:45
>> Are you proud of yourself?
01:45:48
I'm proud of the people I've helped
01:45:51
>> and I'm glad we've kept going
01:45:56
and that we're all I'm proud of our
01:45:58
family that we are all still
01:46:01
>> together in a messy, chaotic,
01:46:03
non-perfect way.
01:46:10
>> You should be.
01:46:11
>> Thank you.
01:46:12
>> Yeah. Lucy from 12 years ago. Like what
01:46:15
would she think of the Lucy of today?
01:46:17
She'd be surprised.
01:46:18
>> Yeah. And proud of it.
01:46:19
>> Well, really surprised because I never
01:46:21
did any public speaking ever until the
01:46:24
earthquakes. So, post quakes,
01:46:28
>> Grant Scoffield came down to Christ
01:46:29
Church and he said to me, we'll go and
01:46:31
do a kind of resilience road show, shall
01:46:32
we? And I went, "No, not me. I don't do
01:46:36
that." And he said to me, Lucy, you need
01:46:38
to do that. If you can't do that, then
01:46:40
you're a muppet. Which was good for me.
01:46:42
And so that then I started doing it. And
01:46:45
I mean I really anyone out there who
01:46:47
hates public speaking I never did any of
01:46:50
it. I avoided it all my life and in the
01:46:53
end I've realized that it is just about
01:46:54
communication and I was always a writer.
01:46:56
So it's not actually so different. So
01:46:58
you just have to overcome the nerves and
01:47:00
you overcome the nerves by doing it. So
01:47:02
um I I feel lucky to have had all the
01:47:05
opportunities I've had and I feel
01:47:08
amazingly lucky to have the support team
01:47:11
I have that have enabled me to do the
01:47:13
work I do. And I I do the caring and you
01:47:16
know I go out into the world and
01:47:18
nowadays I come back and my husband
01:47:21
Trevor and the dogs are there and they
01:47:23
look after me and he does we've
01:47:25
completely kind of reverse rolled so he
01:47:28
is kind of the house husband now and I
01:47:32
come in and out. So yeah I feel very
01:47:34
lucky.
01:47:36
>> Dr. Lucy Hol this has been a great
01:47:38
podcast.
01:47:38
>> Thank you.
01:47:39
>> Yeah
01:47:40
>> has been a great chat Dom. Thank you for
01:47:42
giving grief some air time and air
01:47:44
space.
01:47:46
>> Thanks for being so open about
01:47:47
everything. I I hope it's not too
01:47:49
exhausting now. Or is it good
01:47:50
exhausting?
01:47:51
>> I think it's good exhausting. like yeah
01:47:53
I've often thought that when I haven't
01:47:55
wanted to get up and speak about these
01:47:56
things over the years I used to have
01:47:58
play this little game with myself and
01:48:00
I'd say to myself if I was sitting in
01:48:02
the front row of an audience and I had
01:48:04
to get up on the stage and speak to
01:48:06
hundreds of people I would say to myself
01:48:09
okay just imagine now that you're not
01:48:11
allowed to do it and someone else is
01:48:12
going to get up and share then how would
01:48:15
you feel I'd be like okay then I'm up
01:48:17
I'm up because actually I do have
01:48:18
something that I want to share I've got
01:48:20
some knowledge that I really wish
01:48:22
everybody knew more about what
01:48:24
resilience really is and what grief
01:48:26
really looks like and grieving requires.
01:48:28
So I think being on a mission has really
01:48:31
motivated it ma motivated me and made it
01:48:34
much easier for me to do the
01:48:36
uncomfortable work that has felt quite
01:48:39
scary at times
01:48:41
>> and it's wonderful work and uh the book
01:48:43
How will I ever get through this? I feel
01:48:44
like every household should have this
01:48:46
either read it now or keep it in case of
01:48:49
emergency. Well, I mean it is basically
01:48:51
the kind of um companion guide to
01:48:54
working out how you cope with everything
01:48:58
that we all go through. Like we all are
01:49:00
living in pretty fullon times where
01:49:04
disruption, you know, AI, our digital
01:49:07
tech, there's so much going on. And all
01:49:10
of my work is about equipping people to
01:49:13
find the strategies, the ways of
01:49:16
thinking, acting, and being that work
01:49:18
for them because we're all different. So
01:49:19
you have to do you and find what works
01:49:21
for you. So in that sense it is a kind
01:49:24
of companion guide to living in the
01:49:27
crazy crazy times that we do live in.
01:49:29
>> Yeah. Hey well done and congrat congrats
01:49:32
on everything um everything you've done
01:49:34
and all your success and long continued.
01:49:36
Dr. Lucy Hone thanks for being on my
01:49:38
podcast.
01:49:39
>> Thanks Dom and thanks to everyone who's
01:49:41
listened. I really appreciate it.
01:49:46
Let's see.
