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I was finishing my PhD in psychological flourishing and resilience. All of our lives changed forever.
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>> Who is Dr. Lucy Holmes? Who was she before May 31, 2014? >> Our beautiful 12year-old daughter Abby
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was killed in a car accident. >> How is it for you to talk about that? >> I don't remember that much of feeling
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like a caged animal. Wild animal is probably the better description. We've never blamed the driver. Blame was a
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road to hell. Abby taught me that life is wild and precious. She literally gave me the Merry Oliver poem about a month
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before she died. >> Do you wonder about what I should be doing? >> Christmas time is always still pretty
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awful. Would I have her back? Of course. In a second. I do know she's just not
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here. >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
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there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
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hollen one in Tour. Oh, >> he did it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate.
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>> Putting performance first. >> Dr. Lucy Hone, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Oh, Dom, it's such an honor to be here. Thank you for having me. >> We We just met uh like 10 minutes ago,
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and I said to you, I feel like I know you. I wasn't sure if we'd met before or
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not, but um we've got messages that go backwards and forwards for years. >> That's a funny thing. That's one of
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those social media things, isn't it, that you and I feel like we know each other and we've never actually met in
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person. So, I'm delighted to be here with you. >> I'm delighted to finally connect with
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you. You've got this brand new book out. How will I ever get through this? Um
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when should someone have this? Um should it be something you have um when you reach desperation point, crisis point
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and you need it or should you read before then? >> Such a good question. Um so in truth I
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think that the most kind of typical reader will be somebody who is going through a stressful life
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event or do you know what I call them in the book? BFTs. um after we've got a bit of a family
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thing about a BFT, which is a bloody thing, a bloody effing thing. And so it's my shorthand for all of those big
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life events and transitions that don't involve a funeral. And so that's what
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this book is about. Um, my last other grief book was about coming back from death, bereavement, but eventually
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people kept coming to me and asking for a different kind of book that was about those like they I've gone through
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something. I've lost something. Um, and I feel overwhelmed and completely like
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my world has fallen apart. How do I get through this? Um and as we might get into that question comes from my
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research. >> Yes. You you've got um classroom knowledge um but also just unimaginable
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real life knowledge as well which places you in a very unique position. So who is
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Dr. Lucy Hone? >> Are you asking me that question? >> Well actually no let me ask that a
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different way. Who who was she before May 31, 2014 and who is she now? >> Such a good question. So before the 31st
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of May 2014, which is the day that our beautiful 12-year-old daughter Abby was killed in a car accident, alongside her
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equally gorgeous 12year-old best buddy, one of her best buddies, Ella, and Ella's mom, Sally, who was I nearly said
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is, but you know, is a dear dear friend of mine. Um the day before um I was finishing my PhD in
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psychological flourishing and resilience. So that is you know I have had this academic background in
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basically trying to work out why some people seem to get through disruption, challenge, change, stress,
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pressure better than others. That was my day job. I'd then helped people in the
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Christ Church earthquakes for a couple of years. For a bit, I put my PhD on hold and literally put it on hold just
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to do work in the aftermath of the Christ Church earthquakes. And then I was coming to the end of it when
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that day dawned and our all of our lives changed forever. Um, seriously. Yeah. I
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mean I would say that that we are a very close family still. I'm delighted to say but childhood ended for
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our boys and that day and our family the boys were pretty much 16 and 14. So we did go from being you know a young
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family to quite a different family. >> You change as a person I guess. >> Yeah you do fundamentally change as a
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person. My mom died many years ago in 2000. And I think it was at that she died of um lung cancer and didn't smoke.
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And it was then that I came across a quote from one of the Gibb brothers, the Beeges. I can't remember which one. And
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they'd had um they'd gone through a lot of losses. Um I remember one of them
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saying, "There are two types of people in life. those who have lost someone and
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those who have yet to do so. And that really resonated with me and and now actually I changed that to say actually
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there are so many more losses than when someone dies. Um but boy it changes you.
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It changes everything about you. And that is the research I've been doing specifically for the last 18 months to
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write this book is to say have these losses changed you? And there is a growing field of psychology called
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post-traumatic growth. And that field has been around for about 30 years now. And there is an abundance of robust
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psychological science showing that of course we don't like these events. And I
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wouldn't wish them on anyone. But the reality is that more people grow from these events and experience
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post-traumatic growth than do posttraumatic stress. Like some of the studies say 8% of people might develop
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post-traumatic stress. What would be your guess for post-traumatic growth, Dom? >> Wow. Must be 92.
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No, >> doesn't quite work like that. But in studies show that about 60% on average
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of people will describe that they have completely changed as a result of going through these kind of big stressful life
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events. So yeah, it certainly changed me, >> changed how I view resilience, changed
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how I work, changed us all. Didn't change my marriage, I'm delighted to say. um you know tough times but um and
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would have doubt without a doubt changed our son's lives. >> How how do you not you specifically but
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anyone how do you not let like a dramatic life event like that just completely consume you?
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>> It does completely consume you. So at the beginning you cannot stop it from
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consuming you. Um, so anybody who's listening who's been through a major
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life event will be familiar with the fact that in the immediate aftermath, particularly if it is sudden and
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traumatic, you have what we call intrusive rumination, meaning that you just cannot stop thinking about it. Like
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you are consumed with thoughts. I would think about Abby every single second of my waking hours for I'm delighted to say
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I can't remember how long now, but for a long time, months, possibly even beyond
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the first year. And then over time what we see in the research and I see with my
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own clients is that over time that intrusive rumination which we have no control over which completely consumes
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us becomes what we call deliberate rumination which basically just means that you get a bit of space from it. You
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can almost kind of like hover above it and examine your thoughts a bit more. So you start asking different questions
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like asking what does this mean for me and how am I going to maintain that relationship that is important or
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actually do you know what I might let the other relationship go. So over time you go from intrusive rumination to
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deliberate rumination. And that struggle, all those questions and all that thinking is where the
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re-calibration and growth comes from because you're basically reinventing how
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you think about the world. >> That's such a great answer. This is going to be such a big episode. Uh I
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feel like it's going to be like an episode of two parts. like there's um
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going to be answers like that which is um helpful for anyone that's listening
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but then there's also going to be um you know personal questions related to to
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your backstory a after something like this a big sit down podcast where you reflect on your daughter and her life
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how are you do you get like a like a vulnerability hangover are you emotionally drained
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>> I'm definitely emotionally drained um people who seem are familiar with my
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work are surprised because people think if and if you follow me on social media people might think that I'm extrovert.
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I'm actually pretty introverted. And then the definition of that is that being around lots of other people and
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being on really drains me. So a podcast like this I I enjoy having these conversations. My mission is to get
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people to be able to talk about grief. So I absolutely welcome this opportunity. But yeah, I will probably
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be lying on the couch by half 6 this evening. >> You one thing you mentioned your social
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media. One thing I like about it is um even though grief is your specialty, it's so upbeat. You're so upbeat, so
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positive. Everything you do on social media is um uh it's like a shiny happy
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person. >> I don't think I'm a shiny happy person. That's interesting. Well, I mean, so I
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think I'm pragmatic more than positive. I think I'm really very real. You know,
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my actually my biggest post of last year was when I got hit in the face by a unexpected flying sun umbrella and it
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whacked me in the eye and I looked like my husband had beaten me and I found myself on Monday morning in Oakuckland
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going to do record my audio book and I was sitting in the back of the cab thinking I feel awful. I feel
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vulnerable. I feel daunted by what's ahead. And I thought actually this this is the moment
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to do a post to be real, you know, no makeup, really big bruised black eye. You can if you're on social media, you
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can go and look at it. And so I'm I I by nature, my mom used to say, you know, I
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was a sunny, happy child. >> I do think I've had multiple losses in my life. I think I'm much more pragmatic
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now. Um and I certainly wasn't upbeat for a long time after Abby died. You know, it took a it took a long time for
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me to get my zest back again. >> There's a Taylor Swift song that I really like called All Too Well, and
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there's a line in there, and this is just a song about a a pathy relationship
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she had. Um, but the line goes, um, "Time won't fly. It's like I'm paralyzed
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by it. I'd like to be my old self again, but I'm still trying to find it." Now,
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I'm sure after a 3-month relationship, you do find your old self again, but after losing a child, do you?
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>> Um, no. So one, so let me explain why I say no. One of my big bug bears is that
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people define resilience, which is my academic field, as bouncing back. And I don't know about you, Dom, and anyone
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who's listening, but when you've gone through a really tough life moment,
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firstly, I don't think you feel bouncy. We've covered that. You know, no room
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for tiger here. And I definitely went from being a pretty bouncy person to a much less bouncy person for a long time.
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But also, you don't go back. These big life events absolutely change us. They put an imprint on us. We
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completely think differently to how we did before. And I don't know if we're
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going to talk about this, but in this new book, in How will I ever get through this? I talk about the fact that when
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these big events happen, what really happens to us is it's like someone throws a wrecking ball into your world.
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So suddenly the the world that you thought you lived in and the life journey and path that you kind of
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thought you were going down is completely smashed apart. And we call that in psychology your basically your
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breakdown of your assumptive world. Meaning the assumptions you had previously about the world, how it
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should work, how you should behave, and how other people should behave. All of your core beliefs have just been smashed
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apart. So, in order for us to relearn to live in the world, to to cobble together
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a life in the aftermath of something like that, what we're really doing is reassembling a new operating system,
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like new core beliefs, a new assumptive world. And in doing so, like literally rebuilding that jigsaw puzzle, if you
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like, you build it completely differently. And I've always thought that our jigsaw piece puzzle is
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completely different and it will always have a piece missing in the middle. >> So who was or who is Abigail and Hone?
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>> Um, do >> you say was or is? >> Yeah, it's an interesting question. I
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don't um I do I love her still. Yes. So I wouldn't talk about loved in the past
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tense. I would say was because that is back then, you know, we were all younger then. Um she was a um one of her
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favorite words which about sums her up was redunculous. And that does about sum her up. She was
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redunculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Um she was funny. She was quite irreverent. She was, you know, sharp. She would cut
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you down. um a very dear friend of ours, her one of her best friends is called Imagigen, and I did use the present
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tense there, which is interesting, isn't it? That Imagigen's dad, Tony, I
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remember him once was about to walk out the door at his house and Abby said to him, Tony, are you going outside wearing
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that? And he looked at her and and she he was like, should I not? And she said, no, I definitely don't recommend that.
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She was 12, so she was definitely sassy. Um, and beautiful and yeah, bubbly, emergent.
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12. It's such an age, isn't it? Where you're just coming into yourself. She
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was curious. She once walked through the front door and said to me, "Mom, is it possible to be too
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solutionfocused?" Which made me laugh. I was like, "Oh my god, you're so precocious."
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Um, so yeah, she was um a sharp little thing. >> What about um like music, TV shows,
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clothing stores, toys? >> Um, so um Harry Styles, what were they called? One Direction. One Direction. So just
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before she died in that last year, the uh Moore FM were running a competition to go to One Direction. So, she and I
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went to the beach and funny Ed, our eldest, and both our sons are video editors, but Ed put together a video of
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Abby and I singing the beautiful song on the beach. >> That's what makes you beautiful.
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>> That's what makes you beautiful. And um it's still available on YouTube
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somewhere. It's just hilarious. And we kind of do this big hair flick. And so
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that was Abby. She was in love with Harry Styles. Um and Charlie Murray, who was the boy at school she was in love
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with. Sorry. Sorry, Charlie Murray. I hope you don't listen to this. >> Twitties now.
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>> Yep. >> Yeah. Um, >> yeah. How do you how do you feel when you watch that clip on YouTube?
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>> Do you do you watch it very often or do you like consciously avoid it? >> I don't consciously avoid it. It's not
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very easy to find. I probably have watched it um about once a year or once every 18. I suddenly remember it or
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maybe I I hear the track and so I will go and look at it and then I I feel good. It's hilarious. But equally, I'm
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going to be really honest, and somebody asked me to go to Harry Styles with them
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because he's about to visit, isn't he? And I just said, "No, I can't do that."
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>> Um, we did get to see One Direction together, Abby and I, at her only concert. And I couldn't. No, I would
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just I'd be bereft and I would feel like, you know, half of me was missing. So, I'm careful,
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you know, it's not like I avoid tears, but I am a little bit careful that I wouldn't Yeah, I tend to just protect
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myself a little bit from really acute moments like that that don't have that
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much benefit. I can watch Harry on Instagram. So, 24th of April, 2026. Uh, that would
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be her 24th birthday, which means she's she's been passed as long as what she
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was on the Earth side. What do you do on what do you do on the 24th of April? >> Wow. This is honestly, this is such a
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delight. You've asked me this question because you're not going to believe what
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our answer is, and you're not also going to believe I will probably cry about
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this. And it isn't about Abby. So, oddly, on the 24th of April this year, do you know what's happening in Christ
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Church? The stadium is opening, the new stadium. So, we have tickets and we are going
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with Patty, our middle boy. And this will make me cry. It's been a long road
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in Christ Church. And I went the other day to the big stadium in Sydney. I was over there working. I went to the
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Waratars Reds and I walked out into the stadium and I was with all my Aussie friends who live in Bondi. So they
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they've been through a lot and I've been thinking about them and their community.
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I was staying in Bondi and suddenly I walked out into the stadium and I said, "Oh wow, we are about to have a stadium
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like this." And it's really easy. This is not a sob story, but it is really
00:19:04
easy for other parts of art and New Zealand to forget what it actually is like to have lived there for the past 15
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years. Just last weekend was the 15th anniversary. And I wrote a blog about that because I wanted to remember and
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then I went to look for pictures and I just could not believe the devastation. So for us to stand as a city
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in that stadium on Aby's birthday and finally feel like our city is so much better, stronger.
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You know, it's quite a different community. and I do quite a lot of work in resilient communities and we've been
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through so much that I'm really proud to say that on that birthday I will be
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standing there with um two of the three people I love most and we will be thinking about Abby and we will feel
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like it's wow what a thing to celebrate to be there >> you're so positive eh
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is the birthday hard like leading up to it each year or >> somebody asked me um on Instagram,
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somebody asked me today actually sent me a message to say, "What can we do for an
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an anniversary of their child?" And I said to them, actually, all I will say
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to you is that I don't think we've ever felt like we got that birthday right,
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but also we didn't get it wrong. I just think you just have to find your way
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through it, and there is no right or wrong way. We've sometimes I think I have probably pushed for doing less at
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times having less people around because that's the introvert in me and Trevor my
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husband is more extroverted but we've usually ended up seeing friends and family and we had our 21st a couple of
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years ago and we went as a family um to Raglin and hired a really great house there and we're all together and
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everybody served and but you never feel good about it And so I think you do need people. I eventually
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even I would acknowledge that we need people around us. It's just a day to get
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through. I think >> May 31st, 2014. Do how is it for you to talk about that? Do do you sort of go on
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autopilot like to have you must have told the story like a thousand times? You >> I think that's true. I I think I do
00:21:31
slightly disassociate. um years and years ago soon after the girls died Sunday program came and interviewed me I
00:21:41
think it was them some journalist at some point said to me I feel like there are two 's going on here and that you're
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almost kind of observing your own response and talking more from an academic standpoint
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than yourself personally I I don't mind talking about it you It is the facts of
00:22:03
our lives and I don't remember that much about it. I remember we were at Oroho Lodge and
00:22:14
you know it just was grim and the phone calls to the rest of my family and I basically remember being sweaty,
00:22:24
thirsty, feeling like a caged animal like like literally feeling like like a wild
00:22:31
animal is probably the better description. And I remember in the early weeks afterwards feeling like I was on
00:22:40
autopilot that everybody did everything for me. It was almost like people just kind of had me by the shoulders and
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directed me to where I had to go. So yeah, I mean it's it's yeah, words do kind of fail us, I
00:22:58
guess. >> The day before she won an Endeavor award for hard work at her school. Um,
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>> which is hilarious because she wasn't a particularly hard worker, but she had
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just and and I've looked at that award cuz it's still in her bedroom and it was
00:23:15
for academic endeavor. >> Go Gingang we used to call her and um, wow. And we gang, I don't know why.
00:23:24
Abigail ging. Wala wala. That's something I've never said before out loud. That's just at our house. Um, but
00:23:31
was quite funny because Trevor and I turned up when we arrived, we didn't have any we didn't I don't know, did we
00:23:37
not really believe it was a big thing or something. So, we turned up at school and I remember I was in Converse and
00:23:43
jeans and everybody else was really smart and I remember the two of us saying, "Oh, like maybe this is actually
00:23:51
something we should tune into." And mainly I also remember that she had the
00:23:57
like some fudge afterwards and you know that was the thing she was most excited about. But
00:24:02
>> yeah, so I I do think that she would have you know I'm probably making this
00:24:07
up but I've always kind of felt she was a writer, a thinker like you know that
00:24:11
line about is it possible to be too solution focused? Definitely precocious but she definitely was curious. Um, and
00:24:22
I, you know, I used, I think in Resilient Grieving, my one of my other books, I did say that we might have
00:24:28
ended up publishing together one day. >> Uh, but I, ironically, she's here now. We work together now.
00:24:37
>> Does that make sense? >> I wouldn't be doing any of this. >> Keeping her keeping her alive.
00:24:41
>> Yeah. I wouldn't be doing any of this work if she hadn't lived and hadn't
00:24:44
died. And so I do feel like there is a co-creation thing. We do this together. >> That was such a funny answer. Like I
00:24:56
brought up that endeavor thing cuz I was thinking um you know just sort of it's
00:25:00
an example of um just the promise and the life that was lost and you you cut her down at the knees.
00:25:05
>> Scoffed at it. >> Did I say that we're pragmatic and real not perfect in our family? here. Um, I
00:25:13
found the uh the obituary online which um [ __ ] it's it's it's a piece of
00:25:18
writing that like no >> who wrote the e >> are you going to have to read it to me
00:25:23
cuz I don't know who >> did you have a hand you must have had a hand >> is this a bit that was in a paper or
00:25:27
>> online >> okay are you going to read it >> um y I I cut out some of the names at
00:25:31
the end but um this is the gist of it on May 31st 2014 our beautiful little perfect funny kind daughter, sister,
00:25:42
granddaughter, godaughter, and friend was tragically taken from us as the result of an accident aged 12 years.
00:25:49
Precious daughter of Trevor and Lucy, love sister of Ed and Patty, dearest granddaughter of Val and John and
00:25:55
Trisha, a life surrounded by love and laughter, sadness beyond words. >> Did you ever come across Ed's Facebook
00:26:05
post that he wrote? >> No. So Ed is our eldest and Ed wrote a post. He was 16. His birthday was the
00:26:13
following week and he wrote a post on Facebook about how we will not blame the driver. And it is such a beautiful piece
00:26:21
of writing and I ended up putting it in resilient grieving because it was so eloquent and he was so
00:26:31
right. We've never blamed the driver. It was an horrendous accident. And we I
00:26:39
think we intuitively knew that blame was a road to hell >> and more pain and more agony. And
00:26:49
forgiveness wasn't condoning like we're not saying it's a good thing, but that actually
00:26:57
forgiveness was a better option for us all. But it's funny when you read me that really what I think about is the
00:27:07
less formal truth that Ed wrote that we as a family I think he talks about it being like the Swiss cheese kind of
00:27:16
freak event where all everything has to line up for it to happen. And that is exactly true. You know I've often
00:27:24
thought that if they just were delayed by a second, >> how many seconds of her life would she
00:27:30
have got? and Ella and Sally. >> So, you you guys get told by the police, how do you how do you tell Ed and Patty?
00:27:46
>> In truth, I don't want to talk about them. >> Um, too private, too family.
00:27:55
You may not want to talk about this either, but after that, do you did did you guys try and put on masks or try to
00:28:00
shield them for how you were feeling? No. >> How do you how do you parent your way
00:28:03
around this? >> Um, so it's such a good question. How do you parent your way through this?
00:28:11
I I think so. And now I am thinking from my own experience and my academic experience and helping others and what
00:28:19
other people tell me is important and helps them. For us, we were absolutely surrounded by love and community and
00:28:28
friends and family to help us all get through it. People, our community fed us for six months. I actually as I say that
00:28:37
now I'm kind of embarrassed and appalled how long I let it go on for but yeah I just I it when anyone is grieving
00:28:46
I feel so for them that they have to carry on with the minutia of life and it's really important to do that because
00:28:52
that is what enables you to carry on but it's really hard so >> so what did we do um yeah we I think
00:29:00
we've always been very open and honest with our emotions like we're not people
00:29:05
to sugarcoat stuff. We're not people to hide it. There was a lot of crying. There was a lot of music in our house
00:29:14
straight after. The boys are we're all very into our music. That's our kind of
00:29:18
family's language. And then I remember there was a period afterwards where we
00:29:22
didn't have music and then it came back on and I remember thinking, "Oh, you
00:29:26
know, thank goodness for that." There was so much music at the funeral. I mean
00:29:29
in all honesty when in the few days before I don't know when there was a kind of a practice thing moment and I
00:29:36
remember going in there and saying it does appear that the funeral has become a funnel like it's like there's a lot of
00:29:42
fun going on here are we all good with this but you know 12year-old girls and school community and so many children
00:29:52
around so I didn't have a problem with it being a fun at all but there were and
00:29:57
I loved that there was so much music M >> music has been really big part of our
00:30:01
grieving I think and our boys do incredible music now. So they are they produce music they are um in a band and
00:30:11
we're you know we're we go to electric a every year. Music's a big thing for us.
00:30:19
>> You touched upon the driver before and uh the the forgiveness aspect. So it was
00:30:26
um a man in his 50s. He avoided jail or 6 months home detention I think. Did the
00:30:30
leniency annoy you? >> I don't know. I didn't know he had 6 months detention. I I've always kept him
00:30:37
a bit part in my grief process because I think I felt that knowing more about him
00:30:46
wouldn't help me. But I without a doubt also no. I don't even feel comfortable
00:30:50
talking about him really. He um he had children the same as us. He didn't need us to make it worse.
00:30:57
>> Yeah. >> And we've all made mistakes in our lives, you know. I Yeah. I did really
00:31:02
feel like he didn't need us to make it worse. >> That's a generous and brave position to
00:31:10
take. I I I I understand the forgiveness aspect how it's how it's good for you.
00:31:14
There's that saying like anger is like holding on to a hot rock and hoping someone else gets burnt.
00:31:19
>> Yeah. >> Have you heard that one? >> Yeah. And I agree with that.
00:31:22
>> But it'd be easy. On the flip side of that, it'd be easy to, you know, hold on
00:31:25
to that anger and resentment and blame, wouldn't it? >> Well, not for me. And I don't, you know,
00:31:29
do you know what? I genuinely don't even like talking about him because I feel
00:31:33
nowadays I was about to say poor him. I do feel poor him. Like it for me, I talk about this a lot. I
00:31:44
have my career has completely changed. My work has completely changed because of Aby's death. Prior to Aby's death, I
00:31:51
was immersed in resilience psychology more broadly, but now I do an awful lot of grief work. So, I'm known, you know,
00:32:00
globally as someone who's lost their daughter. And I often think about him and think, you know, poor him. He's the
00:32:05
person on the other end of that. He didn't mean any of this to happen. So, I
00:32:09
genuinely don't really like talking about him. And I wish him and his family
00:32:14
well. M >> I honestly genuinely and I know that our boys and Trevor thinks exactly the same.
00:32:20
It's not fair to drag him up. It's not I don't Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um
00:32:28
you what do you do with Aby's bedroom? >> Such a good question. So um we haven't
00:32:34
done much with Aby's bedroom. We used it that night. So Chessie, my oldest niece,
00:32:38
said, "Well, I'll go and sleep in Aby's bedroom. We better get on and use it."
00:32:42
And that was really good. It is used chaotically with had so many horrible big boy bodies from Deneden living in
00:32:50
it, staying not living in it, but staying in it over the years. We've honestly we've had teenage girls vomit
00:32:56
in it. We've had the lot. So, it's certainly not a shrine. Having said that, I it's still got a lot of her
00:33:02
stuff in it. And if I think I think if I had more time in my life, uh I would try
00:33:08
and sort of tidy it up a bit. But I I think this is accurate to say that I have said to the boys, you know, I think
00:33:15
we've all agreed, let we can just leave it and people go and stay in it. It will
00:33:19
be used. I think we've got about four people staying in it this weekend. It's
00:33:22
not a big room, so it's well used and it's still got the her stars on the
00:33:28
ceiling which light up and occasionally, you know, Trevor's been snoring. Sorry
00:33:34
Trevor, you're going to hate me for saying this. I have gone and slept there
00:33:37
and then I look up at the stars and it is such a little girly bedroom. And I think some of that is important for me
00:33:44
as the only woman in the house to remember that we did have a girl. It's a pretty boyish place, our home, our home.
00:33:52
So I think I like having a little place that is still my girl zone. >> Was there any consideration of like
00:33:59
keeping it as a shrine? Is that is that a bad thing to do? I think and uh so one
00:34:04
of the things I feel very strongly about and this is from the research but my own
00:34:08
lived experience is there is no right or wrong way to do any of this. So you just
00:34:14
have to find your way that grief is so deeply personal. We say that it's as individual as your fingerprint. So that
00:34:24
being so there is no right or wrong way. The only wrong way is if keeping it as a
00:34:30
shrine is interfering with your own functioning, your own health, then you probably do want to change that. So, but
00:34:39
everyone has to find their own time around these things. I personally, I think we all I don't know. No, I'm going
00:34:44
to speak from my own experience feel that it it probably is got too much of her stuff in it now, but actually I feel the
00:34:53
same about about Patty's bedroom, which we've done very little with. So >> it is just it's more of a time thing
00:34:59
than anything. >> Yeah. >> And also why would it would be awful to go in there. So I think there's probably
00:35:04
a bit of that like there I've just got better ways to film my time than go through everything and have to make
00:35:10
those harrowing choices and decisions. So >> yeah, it's interesting because it could
00:35:15
just be like a painful reminder of like what you lost. >> What what um possessions of hers have
00:35:21
you got that just mean the world to you? So, that is a great question and I wish
00:35:26
I could remember them now. I've got a um I went to Peter Alexander for her 12th
00:35:30
birthday and bought this kind of like robe thing and I wear that when I'm having coffee in bed in the mornings.
00:35:38
And I am happy, not happy, but I'm willing to acknowledge it's the only time I've been into Peter Alexander. And
00:35:46
over the years since I've tried to go in to buy something and it is such a girl
00:35:51
zone. Have you ever been there? >> No. you have you in the sausage dog pajamas.
00:35:56
>> Okay, so you know what I mean? Like it is literally the kind of pinnacle of
00:36:00
femininity, >> femininity. >> So I go in there and I I've over the
00:36:05
years probably about four times I've walked in there and then just thought just get out of here. Can't do it. It's
00:36:10
too much for me. Um so I've got other things of hers as well, but I actually
00:36:14
can't think what they are right now. Um actually this is I've got hair I've got
00:36:19
hair um clips on today that are hers. So little things sprinkled through my life
00:36:24
and that incidentally has been shown by research to be really healthy. So there is a
00:36:31
theory a bereavement theory called continuing bonds and it says that finding healthy ways to keep connected
00:36:40
to those you have lost is actually a really healthy thing to do and helps those who are grieving have this feeling
00:36:48
like that they can still love this person that they're still important they're still in their lives and um one
00:36:55
of the psychological researchers that I most admire someone called Bob Nymire He
00:37:00
talks about learning to love in separation and that really is what it's about. And I, you know, I've got my
00:37:06
beautiful little dot tattoo here which is all about her. Um, so she's she's
00:37:12
kind of everywhere. >> It's funny about the hair clips. E, like you you sort of sort of just um like
00:37:17
joged your own memory as you were as you were giving that answer, but when you put them on this morning, did you
00:37:22
>> Nope. I completely forgotten. I think if you hadn't asked me that, I would have
00:37:25
forgotten that they were hers. Do you still dream about her now? >> I think I've dreamt about her twice
00:37:34
>> ever. Um, same with my mom. Um, um, my brother who's also died. Um, no, I just
00:37:41
don't dream about them much. >> When when you see friends of hers that
00:37:46
are like the age that she would be now, 23, 24, like do you do you wonder about what she'd be doing or is it just too
00:37:53
painful to allow yourself to go there? No, I definitely wonder about what she'd
00:37:56
be doing. >> What do you reckon? >> Oh, so that's so this this probably says
00:38:02
something about our family. I don't ever think about her career. I've never
00:38:06
thought what she'd be doing for work. I picture her at festivals on her brother's shoulders.
00:38:13
I imagine her walking through the front door. Trevor imagines all the awful boyfriends she would have brought home.
00:38:21
He loves to do that cuz it kind of makes him feel better. Uh he thinks then he's
00:38:25
sort of, you know, dodged something. So yeah, I um I imagine she would be willowy and beautiful and sassy and I I
00:38:37
will really imagine sometimes over the dinner table and Christmas time is always still pretty awful because, you
00:38:44
know, if we try and do it on our own, then we're just the three men and me. And I really miss having that kind of
00:38:52
just the girl who wants to do Christmas rather than the men who just want to get
00:38:57
through Christmas. >> They need this book for Christmas. >> We Yeah, they do.
00:39:03
>> Just one day, fellas. >> I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh what did Abby teach you in her 12
00:39:07
years that still guides you today, if anything? >> So Abby taught me that life is wild and
00:39:14
precious. And funny enough, in many ways, Sally, who was Ella's mom, who died with her, taught me that. She
00:39:20
literally gave me the Mary Oliver poem about a month before she died. And the poem says, "Tell me, my dear, what will
00:39:30
you do with your one wild and precious life?" And I have really that was everything to me
00:39:38
in the months and years after they died. Just really realizing how wild life was,
00:39:45
how precious it was. And then also that preciousness at some point for a while became really
00:39:54
hard to bear because it it spoke to the vulnerability of it. And there is such a
00:40:00
big part of us when we're grieving that has to learn to live with that vulnerability. And that's so hard cuz
00:40:09
you just realize there's nothing you can't control everything. >> I mean these are the this is what these
00:40:14
big events teach us. And whether that is somebody walking out on you, whether it's a relationship breakdown, or
00:40:21
whether it is someone you love getting diagnosed with dementia or any other kind of motor neuron disease. Um, you
00:40:32
know those life is so bloody unpredictable. Hey, you know that, I know that. Everybody, I hope knows that.
00:40:40
>> Yeah. And you can't have the good without the bad. It's just the it's the
00:40:43
trade-off, isn't it? >> Yeah. I really believe that. Yeah. >> Um,
00:40:49
you mentioned Sally before. It was her husband Shane that was driving. Are you still in in touch with him? How's he?
00:40:56
>> So, he lost his wife, his daughter, and was badly injured himself. >> Yeah. And I won't talk about him. It's
00:41:02
not fair. We are in touch. But I just always I've always feel sorry for Shane
00:41:07
and the other driver thinking, you know, they didn't ask for me to be still talking about this 11 years later.
00:41:13
Can can you do you know there's that saying comparison is the the thief of joy and it is but um you know I sort of
00:41:20
find you don't need to compare down to see someone a lot happier than you that
00:41:23
is a lot worse off does the same thing work with grief like can you do a grief comparison like you so can I compare my
00:41:30
grief to yours and think well I'm lucky in comparison >> I think lots of people do do that and in
00:41:36
much of my work is about actually persuading people out of that persuading people to own their grief that grief is
00:41:43
subjective and you Dom and anyone listening is allowed to grieve any aspect of what has happened to them.
00:41:51
I define grief my favorite definition of grief is that it's the difference between where your life is and where you
00:41:59
thought it would be. So we grief so many more things. And in this new book, there
00:42:06
is an activity towards the beginning where I actually get people to readers to go through and write down all of the
00:42:14
losses they've been through in their life, not as a misery inducing exercise,
00:42:20
but to get them to realize actually how much grief they've already endured. And
00:42:25
then the activity is about unpacking all of the internal ways of thinking, acting
00:42:30
and being and the external supports that have enabled you to get through that. It's essentially a kind of a resilience
00:42:36
digging exercise to go actually you've already been through a lot. I mean really once
00:42:43
you get to adulthood you've been not picked for teams. You've fallen out with
00:42:48
friends. You know you might have lost a grandparent, a dog, a pet. So sadly grief and loss are universal and we do
00:43:00
have this ability to get through them. Not fun, not easy. And but I think it is really important for people to
00:43:06
understand that grief is subjective. You're allowed to grieve whatever it is
00:43:13
that you're wishing or missing. And it's not helpful for people to put fake hierarchies around it. I don't
00:43:23
think >> I had a woman on the podcast recently who's u a powerhouse New Zealand
00:43:30
businesswoman called Dame Joan Withers. She's on on multitude of different boards and um she's in her 70s now,
00:43:37
still married to her husband. Uh they had one son together who was in his 50s and he uh took his own life exactly 4
00:43:43
months to the day before we did the podcast and we talked about how she was doing and she said she's 30 seconds away
00:43:49
from crying at any given moment. >> Um >> I'm sure >> how often Yeah. How many consecutive
00:43:54
days did you cry for? How often how often do you cry now? >> I I cried an hour ago before I came in
00:44:02
here, but that wasn't about Abby. Um that was about I've just said goodbye to
00:44:08
our eldest again um as he heads off overseas and I own my crying you know I think
00:44:15
there's nothing wrong with crying we cry for very good reasons um so what was
00:44:20
your question um do how often do I cry in the immediate I'd say year after the
00:44:27
girls died I remember going away for a long weekend with a bunch of girlfriends and them saying to me, "Wow, you cried
00:44:35
so much more than we thought you did." And I think that was because they'd had
00:44:39
sustained time with me. So that over a kind of 40, you know, two or three day period, they got to see how often I
00:44:46
cried. And I truly think that before that, they would probably be worried that I wasn't crying enough because if
00:44:51
they bumped into me in the supermarket or they saw me out walking the dogs, they'd think, "Oh, she's not crying.
00:44:57
She's fine. Yeah, she looks like she's fine." So, I think it was a good
00:45:00
realization. And I had this conversation with someone who's grieving the other
00:45:03
day that she found exactly the same that her community, her friends were saying to you, you're not, you know, you're not
00:45:09
crying. What's the matter? You're not crying enough. Are you pushing it away?
00:45:13
So, I think it's hard for people to see how much you cry when they're not with
00:45:16
you all the time. I I'm I'm a I nearly said I'm a big fan of crying. I'm not a
00:45:21
big fan of crying, but I think there's nothing wrong or shameful. Um, you know,
00:45:25
we cry because we care and we love. >> That's why we cry. So, I'll take care
00:45:31
and love alongside crying any day of my life. About you, do you cry? >> I'm 53 now. It's um an emotion I'm
00:45:41
leaning into. Like, I can probably count on like one hand the amount of time times I cried in my 20s or 30s like
00:45:46
Nana's funeral perhaps and a couple of, you know, uh some uh fertility treatment
00:45:51
that that didn't go as expected and uh that was a bit emotional. But now, yeah,
00:45:55
I I cry often. Um, I think any guy that that's not sort of leaning into it, it's
00:46:00
um it's like it's a an emotion that you're depriving yourself of, it's
00:46:04
wonderful >> cuz it's part of life's whole rich emotional I don't know. I I'm trying not to say
00:46:14
tapestry because it's such an awful word, but you know, >> glorious mosaic.
00:46:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. And actually Karen Ry who trained me who when I was studying at
00:46:23
the University of Pennsylvania she her title was the master resilience trainer of the US Army which I always thought
00:46:30
was pretty cool. She used to say to us um so there's nothing wrong with any emotion that a resilient person
00:46:36
experiences all emotions. They just don't get stuck in one emotion. And I do
00:46:41
think that that is really important. And and honestly, Dom, sometimes I think that part of my job now is to get people
00:46:48
to understand that these difficult emotions like crying, but also anger and fear and jealousy. All of these are part
00:46:57
of being human. And I think we've become maybe it's a bit of kind of happyology
00:47:02
and toxic positivity, but I think we've become really bad at owning them and
00:47:06
dealing with them and knowing how to deal with them, which is frankly ridiculous because we live now in an era
00:47:12
of ongoing disruption and challenge and change and uncertainty and there's a lot
00:47:17
of fear >> and anger and all of these challenging emotions. So, we all of us, each of us
00:47:26
need to know how to handle them, what to do when we're feeling them, not to push
00:47:30
them away, because they're part of being human. >> Did did your studies and your knowledge
00:47:36
um help you get through, Abby, or did it more like help you help the kids and your husband?
00:47:42
>> No, it definitely helped me without a shadow of a doubt. It helped me because
00:47:47
I don't think I really understood quite the the choices that you have around
00:47:53
your thinking and your behavior and your emotional experience and flexibility until I'd done that training. So I had
00:48:02
done my masters at the University of Pennsylvania and then I'd done my PhD. So I was kind of about what was I about
00:48:10
six years into my study by then. And mainly the really big difference was were that it gave me hope because I'd
00:48:17
seen all of the research studies that show that however awful these things are, the science shows that most people
00:48:25
can get through potentially traumatic events using very ordinary processes. So I had hope. I also knew the importance
00:48:32
of those ordinary processes like just getting out of bed in the morning, getting yourself outside, asking a
00:48:39
friend for help, accepting a meal. One of my um my husband's colleagues, um lovely Kate, who worked with him, used
00:48:47
to come pick me up and take me swimming. I never would have got to the swimming pool on my own. I just wouldn't have
00:48:51
done it cuz I just didn't have the motivation and the energy. But she would come in and literally drive me there. So
00:48:58
it's all of those kind of really ordinary processes. So knowing that definitely helped me and knowing that I
00:49:05
had to keep this kind of hope alive. Um so there's really good research around
00:49:13
around um pragmatism and realistic optimism. So not kind of quashing your doubts but just that mental agility of
00:49:21
going, "Yep, this is awful. I fully get that this is awful and we're really up
00:49:25
against it here, but I'm never going to lose hope that we'll somehow get through
00:49:29
this. And I'm absolutely determined to do every single thing I can to help us
00:49:35
get through this and try and avoid the stuff that drags us down. >> Um, I found a staff article written by
00:49:42
you 10 years ago. So, this was two years after losing Abby. Do you remember this
00:49:46
or not? >> What's the title of it? >> I don't know the title. I've just got
00:49:49
the uh the opening paragraph. Not. Probably not. >> Eh, >> probably not. I probably don't remember.
00:49:56
>> Yeah, I'll read it to you cuz it's be interesting to see um Yes. See see how
00:50:00
you reflect on your words from 10 years ago to now and maybe how far you've come.
00:50:05
I have certain rituals that remind me of her. I wrap my wet hair in her old Barbie tail after swimming, just as she
00:50:11
used to. I wear her necklace when I need extra strength. We continue to celebrate
00:50:15
her birthday at the same spot on the beach every year, surrounded by her friends and eating barbecue kettled
00:50:20
chips in her honor. When I aspire something that reminds me of her that I know that she would love, I post a photo
00:50:26
on Instagram accompanied by the hashtag >> Abby would have loved this. >> Yeah.
00:50:32
>> So, um, go through the chat list again cuz I thought it was really interesting.
00:50:36
>> There's the Barbie towel. >> So, the Barbie towel I've lost. Go on.
00:50:39
Next one. >> What do you mean you lost? just like >> I just don't know where Eddie I remember
00:50:43
there was a point thinking oh the mommy towel that meant so much to me it doesn't seem to be in our world any
00:50:49
longer but you just got to get on with that >> that's a good sign though right you're
00:50:51
not like you I suppose if you're in a bad place you'll be like I need to find
00:50:54
that that towel at all costs like >> and also if I I've definitely worked
00:50:57
that out over the years if it is absolutely essential and you don't want to lose it then don't take it out the
00:51:02
house but that's true for all of us I learned that out when I was about 18 and
00:51:06
I lost a ring I loved I mean you know that is just growing up isn't it okay what's the next one quite funny list.
00:51:11
>> Uh it's beautiful, eh? It's really cool. Um >> the necklace.
00:51:15
>> The necklace when you need extra strength. >> So I've got the necklace and I do
00:51:18
sometimes wear it. Um I'm not wearing it today, but I have got a little A on my
00:51:22
necklace and that stands for her ironically. It also stands my mom an and my brother Andrew, which is another
00:51:29
whole story. And then next one, >> her birthday, the same spot on the beach. We we covered that earlier.
00:51:33
You're going to be at the new 1NZ stadium this year. >> Yeah. and we often go, I know exactly
00:51:37
what that spot is and I sat there just recently and thought of her >> barbecue kettle chips.
00:51:43
>> So that's what I wanted you to get to. So I am staying with friends in
00:51:47
Oakuckland at the moment and the other night I turned up there with a whole load of things and I intentionally
00:51:51
bought those barbecued kettle chips. They've changed the wrapper so she wouldn't recognize them, but I just I
00:51:57
said to them and I bought these because these were Aby's favorite. So yep, they're still firmly part of our
00:52:04
lives. We occasionally try and give up crisps, but that is really too hard for the home family.
00:52:08
>> Choose your battles. Uh when I spy something that reminds me of her that I
00:52:12
know she would love, I post it on Instagram. >> Very occasionally nowadays I would post
00:52:16
something and #Abby would have loved this. I got that from some grief site and it was really lovely at the
00:52:23
beginning just to remember and acknowledge her. And I remember I used to do the same with Sally as well
00:52:28
>> and I Yeah. So I wouldn't do that very often now. when you you do these things and then
00:52:37
after a while it sort of like wears off or peters off when you acknowledge that it's like worn off or peted off. Like do
00:52:44
you have moments of like waves of guilt or anything initially? >> No, I don't really feel guilt. I also do
00:52:50
know the grief psychology that says that when you are grieving and the and the you first lose the someone you think you
00:52:59
could so there is this activity you can do where you draw the size of your grief
00:53:04
in a on a piece of paper and then they ask you to draw the size of your life around that grief ball and basically the
00:53:12
grief takes up all of your life and then they say what do you think this these two shapes are going to look like
00:53:17
further down on the track and most people draw a much smaller grief bull and their life the same size and
00:53:24
actually the psychology the counselor who came up with this who is called Lois Tonkin and comes from Littleton who is
00:53:29
now sadly not with us she said no it doesn't work like that what actually happens is your grief stays the same and
00:53:35
your world your life grows around it and I think that is really true so I don't
00:53:40
really mind that that I don't do those things because I do other things and that is my life growing around it but we
00:53:48
talk about it all the time. >> Yeah. >> I mean, not all the time, but
00:53:51
>> Well, yeah. Well, we've been going for 53 minutes today, and it's been mostly
00:53:55
about We haven't even got to, you know, your incredible TED talk yet. Um, >> we've been going 53 minutes. Wow.
00:54:02
>> Um, what's wrong with the way we commonly talk about the five stages of grief? Did
00:54:08
you before going through this, did you think there was something in that or is there something in that? So firstly,
00:54:14
when my mom died in the year 2000, I think that was probably the first time I came across the five stages of grief.
00:54:21
>> But what are they again? >> I know. What are they again? Anger, denial, bargaining, depression, and
00:54:27
acceptance. So this is Elizabeth Kubler Ross's model from 1968. First clue. Um, on top of that, and so
00:54:36
firstly, I want to say Elizabeth Kubler Ross did such great work because without
00:54:40
her, no one would ever be talking about grief. So I really respect the fact that
00:54:44
she got people to start engaging around conversations around grief and she did that research. So she came up with the
00:54:52
five stages of grief based on her interviews with men who were in palative care. So they were the dying. So that is
00:55:01
a really important distinction to take on board at the beginning. So not for the bereaveve, not the people left
00:55:06
behind. These were the five things that the people who were anticipating death went through according to her
00:55:14
interviews. Quite a small sample. And now what's happened in the 30 40 something amount of years since is that
00:55:22
we know that actually grief is so much more complex than just those five stages. And William Weren who is a
00:55:31
wellrespected grief researcher first of all would say that acceptance is the beginning. You've got to accept that
00:55:36
it's happened. But on top of that, in our grief courses that we run, we often
00:55:41
ask people about all the different emotions they have experienced. And we have a whole handout with I've
00:55:46
forgotten, I'm going to say 36 different kind of experiences and say, tick the
00:55:50
ones that you've had in the last couple of weeks. And honestly, people will say,
00:55:54
you know, I have felt um overwhelmed. I've felt proud. I have felt um guilt.
00:56:01
I've felt sadness. I have felt um inspired by somebody else, you know, a role model or or thankful and grateful.
00:56:11
Grief is just such an emotionally complex thing, which is part of the challenge of it, Dom.
00:56:19
>> People who haven't been through it before just aren't used to the intensity
00:56:23
and the complexity and the fact that all of these emotions quite often hit you in
00:56:28
the space of about 5 minutes. So, it's deeply discombobulating, really overwhelming, and for most people, it
00:56:37
just puts them in a place that they've never been before. But my really big bug
00:56:42
bear with the five stage model is firstly that it is limited. So, we know that most people don't go through those
00:56:50
five stages. We know that most people grieve differently. So, I'll say that again. grief is as individual as your
00:56:59
fingerprint. So I remember when I got my aunt these resources after Abby died thinking there's something going wrong
00:57:05
here because if grief is as individual as your fingerprint then we can't all go
00:57:10
through five stages. That doesn't make any sense. So that started getting me
00:57:14
thinking and then I went and looked at all the research and what I found is that the worst of the five stages is it
00:57:21
makes people think they're doing grief wrong. So I get that in our grief courses and in my work and in my social
00:57:28
media DM, you know, all the time people say to me, I'm doing grief wrong or my
00:57:34
friends making me feel like I'm doing grief wrong or my teenager is doing grief wrong because they're not
00:57:39
experiencing all of these. So in that respect, the five-stage model is actually definitely causing harm. You know,
00:57:48
people think there is a kind of set way to grieve and yet what they need to understand is that everybody does it
00:57:55
differently and you have to find your way. Only you can get through this whole process of relearning to live
00:58:04
in the world. So that is my bug bear with the five stages. Um that they're outmoded. They were never designed to be
00:58:13
about actually the people who were left behind and they are causing more harm than good. So time I mean literally
00:58:20
academia is like we need to retire this model. Sadly it's everywhere. So I read
00:58:25
a research study recently that showed that over 50% of grief sites anything about grief on the internet talks about
00:58:33
the five stage and doesn't say that they're wrong. So it's actually really
00:58:37
prevalent and because of that really harmful. >> So it could have been fit for purpose 58
00:58:43
years ago when it was >> Yeah. Or even >> maybe for what we call anticipatory
00:58:48
grief. So the people who were grieving but even that talk to anybody who's anticipating grief they don't just don't
00:58:55
just experience those five things. And what I should say to you while we're here is so what happens instead? So the
00:59:02
grief theory that has replaced the five stages is called oscillation theory. And
00:59:07
this makes so much more sense. So what we see when we're grieving is that we
00:59:12
typically do two things. You spend time in the loss zone, the grief zone. You're
00:59:17
grieving. You're lying on the couch. You're lying on the floor. You can't get
00:59:21
out of bed. You're doing the grieving, the crying, the misery, all that. But
00:59:24
then of course you do have to get out of bed. And we call this the rest of your life, the restoration zone. And what
00:59:29
typically happens is we oscillate back and forth between grieving and getting on with life. So at the end of my TED
00:59:36
talk, I said it is possible to live and grieve at the same time. And when I said
00:59:41
that, I don't think I I probably had come across oscillation theory. But it's
00:59:45
really important for people to know this because it gives you permission to sometimes absorb yourself in grief and
00:59:51
then go, do you know what Dom, I've had enough of this. I really feel like I
00:59:56
feel so kind of completely wiped out. I'm going to pick myself up and I'm
01:00:00
going to phone a friend and I'm going to I don't know go out for a run, go and do
01:00:05
play the piano, whatever it is for you, go fishing. And what the research is really absolutely confident on is that
01:00:14
you don't want to spend all of your time in either of these zones exclusively. So
01:00:20
you don't want to spend all of your time avoiding it over here and the rest of
01:00:24
your life getting on with it zone. And you don't want to spend all of your time
01:00:28
in that deep grieving bit. And of course over time you spend less time here and more time over here. Does that make
01:00:34
sense? >> Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Um around about a year before he passed I
01:00:40
had Nigel letter rest in peace on the podcast and um it was an incredibly powerful episode and his his wife
01:00:48
reached out to me after he passed and invited me along to the funeral and I I won't be able to do the words. Were you
01:00:53
there? No, >> I wasn't. But I'm working with Natalie at the moment, his wife.
01:00:57
>> Um, she read a letter out that he he wrote for her, you know, my gorgeous
01:01:00
darling Natalie. And there was a again, he's such a wordssmith, I won't be able
01:01:04
to do it justice, but it was um >> it was about grief. And it said, "Don't
01:01:07
don't let grief overwhelm you. The world moves on and it just restricts you into
01:01:11
this tiny little space." >> Was Yeah, I wish I had the the letter in front of me because the the words were
01:01:16
incredibly powerful. But how can you how for some people, how can you not? Well, it is a choice and it's not an
01:01:24
easy choice. So, let me say that first and foremost. And it's a personal choice. Like only you or me or anyone
01:01:31
who's listening or Natalie who I now work with. So, Natalie and I have these
01:01:36
conversations. Just last week, eventually you just have to choose to get off the floor and get on with it.
01:01:42
And you can, you know, if you're struggling with mental illness, that's much harder. So, there are times when
01:01:48
it's much harder. And if you're completely isolated, that is much much harder. But the research shows that only
01:01:56
about 6 to 12% of people get what we call prolonged grief disorder, that they really do get stuck. So for most people,
01:02:05
they do get off the floor and out of the house and somehow find their way to carry on. And I just want to respect
01:02:14
Nigel's work cuz Nigel was such a role model for me. I didn't even know until
01:02:19
after he died that Natalie has told me how much he loved my works and that has been an amazing thing for me. And she
01:02:27
and I are now working together on a brand new project. Um, I don't think she'll mind me saying this, that, but we
01:02:34
sat down together to work at the same desk together at my house last week. And after about half an hour, I looked at
01:02:42
her and just said, "I'm so sorry he's not here and that I'm here doing the
01:02:47
science communicator bit to her, psychologist bit." And and then we kind of also looked at each other and laughed
01:02:56
and I mean, he's so here. He's always here. I mean, his words are here. And
01:03:00
Nigel and I have so many similar very similar pragmatism, pragmatic approach and so many similar phrases. I swear a
01:03:10
lot less than Nigel letter nowadays. >> Well, most people do. >> This is true.
01:03:15
>> Don't wear that as a badge of honor. >> Just isn't that great though. But don't
01:03:18
didn't we? And don't we love his swearing still? Cuz it has made us laugh.
01:03:23
>> Yeah. Just a brilliant man. >> Yeah. All around. >> What are your thoughts on like an
01:03:27
afterlife? Do you do you believe in an afterlife or anything like that? >> I don't really
01:03:31
>> And I'd like not to talk about that publicly because I don't want people to
01:03:34
jump on >> Yeah. >> my religious belief. I do get that particularly then when I work in America
01:03:39
and then I you know that's all very tricky. M I had a clear point on the show a few months ago and he he he
01:03:45
suggest suggested that the the afterlife can be something like um for you like copper kettle chips or
01:03:53
>> Harry Styles song coming on the radio or One Direction song whatever whatever it
01:03:57
means. >> So I think that keeping them close is really important and finding ways to
01:04:01
keep them close. I truly do think that is important and yeah, who knows? But um I do know she's just not here and so
01:04:10
I've had to learn to live without her in the everyday. >> Just for your own sanity.
01:04:17
>> Yeah. >> Is there any silver lining from an un an unimaginable tragedy like this?
01:04:24
>> No. But I also think it's the language around silver lining. Have I has that
01:04:30
shaped me, taught me? Have I learned from it? I do think that all types of loss. So, I'm now talking about living
01:04:40
losses, what I call living losses, as well as a death loss. I truly do think that they I think of them as the great
01:04:48
revealer of who and what matters to us most of this incredible capacity we have for
01:04:56
coping and resilience of the people who are really there for you and those who might not be and our
01:05:05
incredible ability to adapt and be so much stronger than we think we are and you know that's all born out of the
01:05:12
science but I definitely have experience that so silver lining don't like that
01:05:17
language not your fault but you know any kind of benefit finding they call it in
01:05:21
psychology but I can see that I it has changed me >> and those some of those learn lots of
01:05:28
those learnings have been really good >> would I have her back of course >> in a second
01:05:36
>> thanks for sharing all the stuff >> yeah [ __ ] should be proud >> do you think actually I don't I don't
01:05:41
know I don't even know all I know is what the picture you've painted in the
01:05:44
past hour. >> Yeah. Yeah. Would you be mom shut up or >> I I really sometimes think about that
01:05:51
and Trevor and I have that conversation like is it mom shut up time and I do really feel for my wider family and
01:05:58
because we've gone through a lot of losses as a family as a wider family and
01:06:03
so in in this new book in how will I ever get through this I have talked about all of those particularly the
01:06:10
living losses. So all of the different events that have happened in our lives and how those have shaped us. So, I
01:06:16
definitely have moments where I think I'm sure that the rest of my family think Lucy just learn to shut up. But
01:06:23
I'm a writer and that is a problem if you're a writer. It's how you make sense
01:06:27
of the world. So, you end up >> writing about it and when you end up writing about it, then you end up
01:06:32
talking about it. >> Yeah. Also, yeah, [ __ ] that. Never shut up. Never shut up. Do you do you think
01:06:36
um Aby's legacy is the the work you're doing or is it something else? >> No, I truly think it is. Um and in the
01:06:43
first year after she died, somebody sent me a paper that was called co-creation of legacy and it was all about they had
01:06:54
written about their father and how they his life had changed because of his father. His name is Joe Caspersonson and
01:07:01
he sent me this paper about how he was going forward really intentionally living his life
01:07:10
with his father's you know memory and values and how his life had changed and
01:07:17
he had made this intentional decision to go forward creating a co-leacy and that
01:07:22
did have a really big effect on me and I think that is what I'm doing and in
01:07:26
resilient grieving and my um other grief book. We we had her she had written her
01:07:32
name somewhere at home and we lift Trevor got that lifted and created into a JPEG and it's in the front of the book
01:07:38
and sometimes when I sign the book I put it Lucy and and then her name is there because I do kind of feel like we're
01:07:45
doing this work together >> and it's incredibly important work too. I think talking about grief is
01:07:51
incredibly important because I see Dom in my professional work, particularly with organizations
01:07:59
and in my community work, the unbelievable amount of harm that comes from people not being able to talk about
01:08:05
grief. >> We need to be able to have these conversations. And frankly, I don't know
01:08:10
how we ended up with grief and grieving being taboo, but it doesn't serve anybody well. We all need to be able to
01:08:18
own grief, spot grief, talk about grief. Like, why wouldn't we be? I mean, it's
01:08:23
the most universal thing. Death and taxes, you know, they say, don't they are the like the only deads in life?
01:08:32
Well, >> how can we not have these conversations? And why I get why people are nervous
01:08:36
because they don't want to offend. But in not having them, you are offending
01:08:40
and people are getting hurt anyway. So, let's just feel the weird and do it anyway. As somebody um I once worked
01:08:49
with from the army said, he was the um mental health skills person at the army and that was his phrase and it was so
01:08:54
good. >> Just get on and do it. Don't try and make it perfect. >> But don't ignore them and don't not say
01:09:00
anything. >> So, this TED talk you did, three secrets of resilient people, um I watched that
01:09:08
the other the other day. It's hard to know how many people have seen it because there's there's various
01:09:12
duplicates of it online. Do you have any idea? >> Um, so the last count that my team did
01:09:18
across platforms, it has been watched 9 million times. >> Unbelievable. That's incredible. And
01:09:24
it's one of the um every like everyone knows what a TED talk is. It's one of
01:09:28
the top 100 TED talks of all time. >> Must watched was was the label. I mean
01:09:32
it is >> Yeah, it's just surreal. And when I did it, it was a TED X talk and I did it in
01:09:38
Christ Church and I was really proud to do it. It wasn't easy to do it because
01:09:42
you have to wrote learn it but I was felt really honored to be asked to do it and and that was a TEDex and I was you
01:09:51
know really proud that some people watched it afterwards and and then co hit and that just changed everything and
01:09:59
actually TED moved it from the TEDex platform to TED.com and that was a phone call I'll never forget cuz I just didn't
01:10:07
see any of that coming and then at the end of that year it became in the top 20 of 2020. 20, which is another phone call
01:10:12
where Denise, who I've worked with for years, said to me, "Your TED talks in
01:10:16
the top 20." And I was like, "Nah, no, it definitely isn't." And she sent me a
01:10:20
screenshot. And I looked and I went, "It appears it is." This is very strange.
01:10:25
>> So, what year did you do it? >> 2019. >> 2019. And you had no notes. There was
01:10:29
Was there an auto quue or >> No, no notes. I was asked to do it in 2016, but I was writing resilient
01:10:34
grieving and I just finished my PhD like the year before and I just thought, "Oh,
01:10:39
can't think of anything." I just didn't want to do it. Like kind of I can't
01:10:42
think of anything worse. Um because you have to learn it. >> It's a long 15 minutes. 15 minutes.
01:10:48
>> 16 minutes. >> Um and it's just really stressful. And when you wrote learn something, if
01:10:55
anybody casts their minds back to like when you're at school and you're told to
01:10:59
wrote learn thing, you don't you're not really in the moment then. So then I
01:11:04
like to speak, you know, I'm pretty raw and real and I like to just speak and
01:11:10
think as I'm speaking and make sure that whoever I'm talking to understands what
01:11:13
I'm talking about. Whereas the TED talk is completely different. You're just
01:11:17
half of you is just remembering and the other half of you is going, whoa, are we
01:11:21
really doing this? Like wow, Lucy, is this a good idea? So you're kind of having that internal dialogue at the
01:11:27
same time as well. >> So it's it's not a live live event or anything. It's not streamed live. So you
01:11:32
do it in that room. You get a >> True. It's not stream live. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you get a standing ovation.
01:11:37
How do you feel at the completion of it? You feel like you've nailed it. >> No, I just felt exhausted and relieved.
01:11:42
So, I think this is a bit me though because I felt the same. Someone I've we
01:11:46
did the Coast to Coast a few years ago and people often say to me, "Wow, how
01:11:50
did you feel at the end of that?" And I'm like exhausted and relieved. This is
01:11:53
apparently how I feel at the end of big life events which I slightly wish I hadn't taken on but managed to somehow
01:12:00
get through. But then I mean is it life-changing? Excuse me. When it starts to blow up
01:12:06
online, >> it's work changing. Yeah. >> Yeah, definitely. Because um
01:12:10
particularly because we were then in COVID. So it meant that I was already doing a fair bit of work online. I mean
01:12:17
mainly we were very familiar with Zoom. We were doing a lot of meetings. But it did then mean that I was able to do
01:12:23
webinars and keynotes all over the world. And so that has enabled me to share my messages and my insights and
01:12:32
all of this resilience psychology much more broadly. And that is what I care about. You know, I am um I'm not a
01:12:39
psychologist. I don't do one- on-one counseling. What I do instead is write books, do TED talks, do keynotes,
01:12:47
podcasts. Um I'm lucky enough to be invited on. And so it is about big messaging and what I call grief literacy
01:12:55
and well-being and resilience literacy like people understanding these concepts >> and getting the language and the words
01:13:04
and the skills and strategies all of which are sciencebased not the stuff you just pick up on Instagram
01:13:11
>> or Tik Toks. >> Tik Toks I mean I am on Tik Tok but my stuff is science based.
01:13:17
>> Yeah. Um, yeah, in that talk, yeah, I mean, a lot of people that are watching
01:13:22
or listening to this podcast would have seen it, but I'm I'm assuming there's a
01:13:24
lot that haven't either. Um, there's there's a a part in there where you said
01:13:28
that you needed hope after Abby died. How can someone find hope in a situation that seems hopeless?
01:13:34
>> Well, firstly, hope is the most important aspect of getting through something. So, in the postquake
01:13:43
Christurch era, living there and working there. So, I'm from London. We haven't
01:13:47
mentioned that but I don't I don't I wasn't born here in our do you know we never told our children
01:13:53
that for a long long time and one day they said to us why do we go to get people from the airport who come from
01:13:58
England our family and we laugh Trevor and I we both said sorry we have forgotten to tell you that we're
01:14:04
actually not Kiwis that we're English never told them anyway um so why did I
01:14:09
say >> was a giveaway for that >> well not for them but it was yeah it
01:14:13
might be for you >> do by the way on that do you get lots of people um pronouncing your last name.
01:14:18
Yeah, the Maui pronunciation. >> Yeah, we do. We do. Uh, but I think Trevor's family come from, I don't know,
01:14:23
Holland or Ireland or somewhere. So, we're definitely home. Now, what were you asking me? Um, so, oh yeah, hope.
01:14:29
So, really important in that postquake Christurch era. I remember so my husband is a builder and I remember once walking
01:14:39
onto the building site and one of the guys chucking the press the newspaper across to the other and some and one of
01:14:46
them saying do you want to read Dress so they used to call it Dress as in it's
01:14:50
the most depressing newspaper like you know why would you but here it is heard that that's brilliant
01:14:57
>> and it was I mean it really was true and uh because what I do is help people out
01:15:02
with the messaging Then I remember being kind of really cross around that messaging at the time saying you need
01:15:08
hope to get through these things. And in the same way after the girls died, we were the messaging to us was oh it's
01:15:15
going to take you 5 years of your about 5 years really. You might as well write off 5 years of your life to her loss.
01:15:23
Like it's going to take you that long to recover. You're now prime candidates for
01:15:26
divorce, mental illness, and family estrangement. And I remember the same thing thinking, well, thanks for that
01:15:31
everyone. That's really hopeful. And the real problem with lack of hope is that
01:15:35
it is hopelessness and helplessness. And they are strongly associated with depression and anxiety. And so my job
01:15:44
now is giving people really the evidence and the facts to go actually most people get through this
01:15:50
stuff. I'm not sugar coating it. I'm not saying it's easy. But actually as humans
01:15:56
we are hardwired to cope with stressful and tough times. We always have. This is
01:16:02
literally our evolutionary DNA. So, you can get through it. It's not going to be
01:16:08
easy. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. But you never want to lose hope. And in keeping hope alive,
01:16:19
you are enabling yourself to kind of do the next thing that will help you get there. So, you're kind of setting your
01:16:28
sights on the horizon of believing that some at some point there will be better days ahead.
01:16:34
>> Does that make sense? >> It makes perfect sense. Yeah. You you've
01:16:37
got a way of explaining these things uh in a real practical uh way and um it's
01:16:43
such an honor to have you here today cuz I know there's there's so many lessons
01:16:45
here that so many people can get so much out of. Oh, there's an old cliche um
01:16:50
that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. >> Is is that is that factual or is that
01:16:54
BS? No, I think it is um sadly factual >> uh for most people like I say. So what
01:17:02
about sort of 6 to 12% of people get prolonged grief disorder which means that they really their functioning and
01:17:09
their ability to cope is substantially impaired over a year. That's the technical definition that is in the DSM
01:17:19
which is the technical assessment kind of bible. So, but for the rest of people, yeah, we do get through it. And
01:17:27
like I said at the beginning, the research on post-traumatic growth says that yeah, most people are changed in
01:17:35
ways, and I hate the word word growth here, but you know, they have changed themselves in ways that they can see
01:17:42
that they've learned new things that they really value. Is that is probably a
01:17:45
better way to say it? I've got a question for you. >> Um, have you ever grieved? Have you ever
01:17:50
lost someone you truly love? Not to the extent you have, but I I was it's it's quite funny that
01:18:00
you asked this because I was thinking about this the other day after watching your TED talk and you your your opening
01:18:04
line, what is it? Stand. If you're able to stand up, stand up. If you've ever
01:18:07
>> lost someone you truly love, ever had your heart broken, ever been struggled
01:18:12
through an acrimonious divorce or been the victim of infidelity? If you've ever
01:18:18
had to cope with mental illness, some kind of physical impairment or any other kind of unwanted diagnosis,
01:18:25
if you've ever had a miscarriage, abortion, or struggle with fertility, and nowadays I'd add to that. And if
01:18:33
you've ever had to pivot due to a global crisis, global COVID pandemic, then you
01:18:41
know, then you've been through something. So, and do you think so if you haven't had a death loss,
01:18:48
am I right in thinking you've had other losses, things that have changed? >> I mean, there has been death loss, but
01:18:53
no one uh like no no immediate sort of family member, you know, just grandparents. And that while that's sad,
01:18:58
you know, they were they were old. >> Um so, nothing like sort of really sudden or shocking of a family member.
01:19:03
Um but I had a a tumor taken out which um caused fertility issues and JJ and myself we were married at the time we
01:19:11
went through years and years of fertility treatment and um I I I suppose I didn't consider that grief at the
01:19:17
time. Um, and it definitely is and it's um I suppose um my way of handling it. I
01:19:22
I I didn't act probably as responsibly as what I should have and I I I got angry and frustrated and resented and it
01:19:30
ended up seeping into other areas of my life and yeah, we ended up breaking up. M
01:19:34
>> we got a fabulous relationship now, but um yeah, I suppose that was that was
01:19:38
grief that I didn't acknowledge at the time >> just >> and then it makes it kind of really like
01:19:44
so hard to fathom what's going on when you've got this whole added layer that
01:19:48
is grief >> and you don't it's so much I don't want to say easier but it makes more sense if
01:19:54
someone says to you you are grieving >> you are grieving the life that you
01:19:58
thought you were going to have >> and that you're not going to have. >> Yeah, that's it. That's it. You you just
01:20:03
have a picture of how well for me the second half of my life was going to look and then suddenly it's like ah
01:20:09
>> it's all just burnt to burn to the ground. >> So we call that a life schema. These
01:20:14
>> pictures mental pictures that we conjure that we imagine where our life is going
01:20:20
to go. And when a BFT, when a bloody effing thing comes crashing into your life, it literally just throws all that
01:20:28
apart. And I often think of that as a I picture it as a fork in the road. And we've certainly had Abby's death was
01:20:35
obviously the ultimate fork in a road. But when it happened that night, I do remember literally picturing a fork in
01:20:41
the road and thinking you now have to go down this road that you never saw coming
01:20:48
and you don't have any choice. And somehow you've got to make a life out of
01:20:52
that. And that is that short. You've just got to keep going somehow, don't you?
01:21:00
>> Yeah. >> Well, you just do, >> especially if you've got two other kids,
01:21:04
which you did. >> And I was lucky enough. And a husband and community and family
01:21:09
>> to look after me and dogs. >> You and I were talking about dogs before
01:21:13
I came in here today. And you've got your gorgeous little I forgotten. >> Oh, yeah. Kanye Sydney. Yeah. That's um
01:21:19
that's some grief that I'm anticipating. >> And us too. We've got Jack Hone who is
01:21:23
14 and is on, you know, he's a Jack Russell. So, we do sometimes laugh and think he'll probably last another four
01:21:29
years cuz they can do that, but he's probably on his last legs and >> you know that he's been one of the great
01:21:35
loves of my life and I'm sure. How old is Kanye? >> He's 12 now. >> So, you know, same.
01:21:41
>> I didn't even want that [ __ ] dog. >> Yeah. How much do you love him?
01:21:45
>> Oh my god, Lucy. Maybe a month after having him, I started googling life expectancy of
01:21:50
Sydney Silks cuz I just knew um just how much it was going to hurt when that time
01:21:56
um unfortunately comes. Um but again, I feel embarrassed even like talking to you about pet grief.
01:22:03
>> I see. Don't be cuz I truly know and we I know that I could have both my sons,
01:22:08
our sons, and Trevor in here now and we are all dreading Jack dying. >> I've had him We've had him for 14 years.
01:22:15
We had Abby for 12. He's a family member. So is Lulu, too. Sorry, Lulu, if you're listening. The other dog who's
01:22:23
nine and gets no air time at all. Um, but they are family members. I think it's really important that people don't
01:22:30
diminish that grief. This book is about what we call disenfranchised grief. All of the many losses and griefs that we go
01:22:38
through in our lives that either we disenfranchise ourselves or other people do or society does, meaning they just
01:22:47
don't count. We don't acknowledge them as grief. And pet loss is one of the
01:22:51
biggest forms of disenfranchised grief. Did you watch the um what's his name?
01:22:57
Oh, Lewis um Formula 1. >> Lewis Hamilton. >> Yeah. What he said about his dog?
01:23:02
>> Oh, oh my god. I I liked a couple of posts and now it's the algorithm is just
01:23:06
feeding me all of it and I'm not mad about it. He's um he's done wonders this
01:23:10
year shining a light on pet grief >> and pet grief is disenfranchised grief.
01:23:14
I mean it literally this is what I wrote this book about is that too many people
01:23:18
are grieving things that they think that they're not allowed to grieve and they
01:23:22
don't know they're grieving. So, you know, this is why I wanted to write this
01:23:28
new book to say to people if you know you're grieving, then hang around for a bit cuz I can tell you a
01:23:34
little bit about grief and then you can understand it a bit more. And if you understand it a bit more, you can talk
01:23:39
about it a bit more and then you will feel less isolated and judged because that's the problem with people not
01:23:45
understanding it is that they feel completely isolated like there's something wrong with them and really
01:23:51
judged. And people tell me that Dom in my work all the time they come to me saying my friends don't get me my
01:23:57
partner doesn't get me you know I feel really judged and lonely like the loneliness in grief is just huge.
01:24:06
>> I think I sort of found that with the um unsuccessful IVF and the fertility stuff
01:24:10
cuz you tell people about it and some people would even make jokes well [ __ ] you can have one of my kids if you want
01:24:15
which no one would ever make a joke like that to someone that's lost a child. No.
01:24:20
And partly they probably do because they don't know how to respond. >> But
01:24:25
you can see then and sense in your own life how isolating it can be when you can't really talk about it.
01:24:33
>> Yeah. How did people react to you guys? >> Some people actively avoid talking about
01:24:38
it. >> No, I don't think anybody ever actively avoided us. I don't remember that. I
01:24:44
know other people who have lost children who've said literally they've seen
01:24:47
people cross to the other side >> because they just don't know what to
01:24:50
say. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yep. And then, you know, I've also had clients who have said people have
01:24:56
avoided them because they almost feel like they think it's contagious like, you know, just can't go there anyway.
01:25:01
Yeah. It is a real challenge though talking to people about grief and finding the right things to say. So the
01:25:07
only thing I'd say is just say something and it's okay to say I don't know what
01:25:11
to say to like you know just feel the weird and do it anyway. >> Yeah. Is that the best thing to have in
01:25:17
your back pocket as a line to say? Uh >> yeah. If you've got nothing else to say
01:25:21
and and very often in our courses when we talk to people about grief and they say that people have said the most awful
01:25:27
things to them, we I will tend to say to them that's very often more about them
01:25:33
and their understanding of and experience of grief than actually about you. Does that make sense?
01:25:39
>> Yeah. that people very often really kind of shy away from it or struggle with
01:25:45
their response because of their own experience not because of what you're going through.
01:25:52
>> I've heard you use the term doing grief well. >> What does that mean?
01:25:56
>> Yeah. Have I? That's an interesting um so >> I I love it by the way.
01:26:00
>> Thank you. Well, I um I think what I'm all I've always been really wary of not
01:26:06
putting more pressure on people who are grieving. So I'm again talking about
01:26:10
living losses here. You don't need a funeral to be grieving. And I'm talking
01:26:14
about death losses. So technically from an academic standpoint, all of my work is about healthy
01:26:22
adaptation to loss is the academic term. So that's kind of unwieldy. So then
01:26:28
really what I'm talking to people about is finding their way through whatever
01:26:32
they're facing so that they can hopefully get to better days ahead. Um what was my line again that you used?
01:26:39
doing grief as well as you can. >> Um, and after Abby died, I remember thinking
01:26:45
>> like my only goal Dom was >> mainly functioning. Like if I could just
01:26:51
somehow kind of get through the day and function as well as we could, then that was a pretty lofty goal. So lowering the
01:26:59
bar and being kind to yourself and expecting less when you're grieving is really important. I think people expect
01:27:06
to get through it too quickly. Whether that's themselves or other people feel
01:27:10
like, "Come on, you should be over it by now." Well, guess what? It takes a long
01:27:14
time. >> No one said that to you, though, did they? >> No, I don't feel that people have really
01:27:21
said that to us. But I know >> I suppose a variation of that is you talked about the the girls trip you had
01:27:26
like a year afterwards and that people made a comment about how much you were crying.
01:27:29
>> No, see, I took that as a not as them judging me. They were actually kind of
01:27:34
delighted to see how much I was crying. Like they were surprised in a good way. It made them think, "Oh, actually you
01:27:40
are really grieving. You're not >> I thought you were doing too well."
01:27:43
>> Yes. And people like people definitely It's hard to do grief well. She says,
01:27:48
you know, inverted commas. Because everyone's got different opinions on what you should do and everyone does it
01:27:53
differently. So even within couples who come and see me very often he or she will say, "Well, my partner's like, "I'm
01:28:00
really worried about them." And I'm like, well, your just partner is doing
01:28:03
it differently. So, they might be out on their on their bike every day, or you might be out in the garden, and you
01:28:10
might be an emotional griever doing lots of crying, and they might be what we call an instrumental griever, which
01:28:16
literally means being much more kind of active around it, like chopping logs, doing the gardening, running, pounding
01:28:22
the pavements, swimming, you know, whatever it is. So, everyone grieavves differently. And if everyone could just
01:28:28
get that message, there'll be a lot less pain out there. >> Um, you mentioned the phrase act of
01:28:35
grieving. Uh, your husband Trevor, he's a builder. When did he go back on the
01:28:39
tools after Abby? >> So Trevor, if he was here, would say to you that I I think we both went back to
01:28:44
work around 6 weeks and I I have heard him say he felt that he went back too soon. So then in truth, I don't know
01:28:52
what happened. Did I maybe he spend a bit more time at home? But we we were lucky because he owns his own business.
01:28:58
I own my own business and so and I was doing the PhD >> but so we we kind of were able to do
01:29:06
that on our own terms. So less you know I mean yeah it was you just got to do it
01:29:11
on your own terms >> and only you know when is the right time to go back. >> But I do quite a lot of work with
01:29:17
organizations helping them understand how a kind of a re-entry program for people who are grieving. And one of the
01:29:25
very helpful things I say to them is don't go back to work on a Monday. Much
01:29:29
better to start work, go back on a Thursday where you've only got to kind of limp through Thursday and Friday and
01:29:34
then you get to the weekend. >> Don't go back to the office first time
01:29:38
and go back to work. Go and have a wrecky. Go and have a coffee with someone, you know, your manager. Meet up
01:29:45
with the team. go into the office before you go actually back to work because that allows you to do that kind of
01:29:53
familiarization and for everyone else there to see you and work out what they're going to say and how they're
01:29:58
going to greet you. And then if you are the grieving person, you definitely want
01:30:02
to have a plan of where you can escape to, like a safe place, and that might be a park bench outside or a coffee shop or
01:30:09
the L, but you need somewhere you can run and hide to. Big sunglasses can be handy. Airbuds, you know, air, you know,
01:30:16
headphones, really handy, just ways to kind of tune out. And one of the other things I want to say that people often
01:30:21
don't know about um juggling being able to grieve and not being able to grieve,
01:30:26
like if you're at work, is that strangely, I didn't really believe this at the beginning, but I have seen people
01:30:32
use this really effectively. You can delay your grieving. So, you can be at work all day where you just can't grieve
01:30:37
and you want to cry and you think, well, I can't do that now cuz I'm about to go
01:30:40
into a team's meeting. So you can put it off and then go home in the evening and
01:30:45
get out the pictures, put on some music, light a candle, kind of whatever it is that works for you and let yourself
01:30:52
grieve kind of on your own time frame, which sounds really fake and like it wouldn't work, but I've had so
01:31:01
scheduling grief. I've had so many people say to me that has really worked for them. It just gives them that
01:31:05
feeling of having a bit more control over it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose like being
01:31:09
being in the work environment or active grieving like mountain biking or whatever, it forces some mindfulness. So
01:31:15
it means you have to focus on a different task. >> Yep. And when I say when I talk about
01:31:19
active grie grieving, really all I'm talking about is being proactive. So one
01:31:24
of the problems for me about the five stages of grief when we were first given all of the grief literature was it felt
01:31:31
like everyone just kept telling me what was going to happen to me. So all of you
01:31:36
know the feelings we were going to experience and I remember thinking I want to know what I can do like
01:31:43
seriously I'm desperate to know that I am doing absolutely everything I can to
01:31:49
try and keep this family together and keep the show on the road. So and that's
01:31:53
what I mean by proactive grieving. So you basically put yourself >> in that kind of proactive stance of
01:32:00
going okay what can I do to help myself here? Are you happy? >> I'm really happy. Yeah. Last time
01:32:09
someone asked me that if I was happy, I then cried, which made me kind of laugh.
01:32:13
I was like, I never actually managed to say, even though I'm crying, I'm really
01:32:16
happy. Yeah, I'm really happy. And that is a question. So, this new book, how
01:32:20
will I ever get through this? Is all about the questions that people ask me when they are going through a big life
01:32:25
event. And I, Dom, kept feeling like people were always asking me the same questions. So, as a good researcher, I
01:32:32
thought, okay, I'm going to go and put this to the test, go and ask people. So,
01:32:36
I did a research study in um the end of 2025 where we asked people all over the world, what are the questions you
01:32:43
typically ask yourself when you're going through a nondeath loss. So, I call
01:32:48
those living losses. Academically, they're called NDLS, non-death losses. Not a very sexy term. So, we thought
01:32:56
we'd call those living losses. So when we asked all these people what sort of
01:33:01
things questions come up for them, I then wrote this book around the first 10 questions that typically swirl around in
01:33:11
people's heads when they're going through a big life event that doesn't
01:33:15
involve a funeral. So the number one question is the name of this book. It was the number one question was how will
01:33:22
I ever get through this? And I kind of expected that and I knew they would say something about physical exhaustion, but
01:33:29
I didn't expect the number two question was why do I feel so physically exhausted? Cuz people don't expect that
01:33:36
in grief. >> And the others were things like why do I feel so lonely? The question you just
01:33:41
asked me, will I ever be happy again? Who am I now? How did this happen to me? And so for each chapter in this book, I
01:33:51
then respond to those questions in ways that I've seen help people in my courses
01:33:57
over the years, but also from the kind of research evidence space um and my lived experience and all my clients
01:34:04
lived experience. So the questions keep coming sadly and you have to find your way to answer them.
01:34:09
>> Yes, there must have been moments uh days or weeks or months where you wondered if you'd ever be happy again.
01:34:15
>> I definitely were. I definitely remember standing in our bedroom and thinking I
01:34:19
don't like my life now >> and I don't want to do this. And when I talk to people who are going through
01:34:27
really tough times when their assumptive world, you know, life as they knew it has been completely smashed apart. They
01:34:36
tell me that how exhausting it is. And I so remember this that you feel like every single day you have to climb a
01:34:43
mountain and every single morning you're down the bottom again and you just have
01:34:48
to keep doing it over and over again. And that kind of ability to get through it, to keep going and get out the other
01:34:57
side is based on the choices you make that enable you to keep going in the micro moments of each day. like pretty
01:35:06
basic choices. >> Phone a friend, get out the door. >> For you personally, how long did you
01:35:13
have to make those micro choices every day before it becomes um >> I still makeine I still make those micro
01:35:20
choices every day. I think people think that mental so we're now talking mental
01:35:23
health like how do we keep our mental health and well-being as good as we can and you know I'd send this question back
01:35:32
to you as well that that just like physical health you have to work on your mental health
01:35:39
>> annoyingly all the time like you can't just go to the gym once and think woohoo
01:35:45
I'm now fit one run Dom we're all done because life's not like that So you have
01:35:51
to keep doing it. And like only this morning, I literally woke up, saw something that made me want to write a
01:35:59
blog. So I literally sat in bed with my laptop and wrote a blog. And then I thought, "Oh wow, it's now half past 8.
01:36:06
I haven't really got time to get out and do any exercise, go for a walk, do anything." So I was about to get in the
01:36:12
shower and get my work clothes on and go off to work. And I thought, "Stop it.
01:36:16
you actually even if you get out for a quarter of an hour you will your brain and your body and everything will thank
01:36:21
you for the rest of the day your sleep will be better so I made myself go and get out in the end I spent 40 minutes
01:36:29
outside and I was just so grateful so it is that's what I mean about choosing
01:36:36
about the importance of your choices in terms of the way you think act and be in
01:36:42
these kind of micro moments of everyday Okay. So, it would be the same for you like what do you do that
01:36:49
keeps you going and keeps you healthy and maintains your sanity and prevents burnout. Tell me what do you do?
01:36:56
>> Oh, I I need some daily exercise. It's like a cornerstone for me. Uh yeah, the
01:37:00
hard bit every morning is um getting out of bed and not hitting that snooze button. Um but it's something I never
01:37:05
regret. I say to people, I see you're wearing a garment, you're a runner as
01:37:09
well. Um you you never feel worse after getting out for a run or a walk or some fresh air. So true. And I once um heard
01:37:16
a lady in her 70s say, "You never regret a swim." And that's my other line in my
01:37:22
head. If I think I can get wet, then I just know that I will always feel better for that for the rest of the day.
01:37:28
>> Yeah. >> And and it's an effort, you know. I never want to glorify exercise because
01:37:34
frankly, I hate it much of the time. >> I never want to glorify exercise. Why?
01:37:40
Why? >> Because I don't. It's exhausting. So, I had this conversation years ago with
01:37:44
Professor Grant Scoffield, who you must know, Grant, who was um he was he is is or was professor of public health at AUT
01:37:51
when I was doing my PhD. And he used to literally say to me, I mean, what's not
01:37:56
to love about exercise, Lucy, you get out there. He's an iron man. So, I'm
01:37:59
like, well, Grant, you are in a very different bubble to me. >> I hate the thought of going for a run
01:38:05
when I put my trainers on. I hate everyone around me. I hate the whole situation. But once I'm out the door and
01:38:12
I do I'm pretty kind to myself. So I think I'll go and run for five minutes
01:38:15
and then I walk a bit and then I run a bit more. My knees kind of hurt so I'm
01:38:19
lowering the bar. But you just feel so much better. But I don't ever find it
01:38:24
easy. And I remember Trevor, my husband, years ago when I was doing my PhD, he's
01:38:28
a reluctant exerciser too and he said to me, "I'm going to do a PhD in why I hate
01:38:33
exercise." Did I say we were quite pragmatic? What are you most afraid of? >> Um, oh,
01:38:47
I'm really thinking. I know the answer to this question. I'm trying to work out
01:38:51
if I want to say it. Um, what I'm most afraid of would be something happening to the
01:38:58
boys. >> Mhm. Which is why saying goodbye is always really hard because I said goodbye to
01:39:05
one child and never saw her alive again. >> Do you have any regrets? >> Not really.
01:39:21
>> Um not with Abby. No. And I wrote about that in resilient grieving in the I
01:39:27
think it is the penultimate or the last chapter. I I talk about the fact that people I've heard people say they do
01:39:34
anything for one last kiss or one more hour. And I've always thought that one last kiss or one
01:39:43
more hour is no good to me. It's a lifetime that I will miss. And I don't
01:39:48
need that one more hour because she knew she was loved. you know, little dear Abby Hone had everything. She had a
01:39:56
family who loved her and friends who loved her who and she knew it. Um, I saw a text from her. I saw a photo of it the
01:40:05
other day where she said something to me and I said to her, "Oh, you sound so
01:40:10
like dad." And she said, "I want to be like dad." Wow. So, you know, she knew she had a good
01:40:21
life. So I don't have any regrets with her. No, really. >> Lucky me. >> And lucky her as well.
01:40:32
>> And and that would be my message. And I'd definitely write that in this book.
01:40:35
I mean, it's a long time since I wrote it. I've rewritten it and updated it,
01:40:38
but it's still a long time since I first wrote it in 201 15. But that is the message of that is
01:40:46
so even if you have regrets that you didn't tell the person who's died already how much you love them, go and
01:40:53
tell the people who are still alive today. >> Make sure everybody knows that you love
01:41:00
them. Those people you love. Like don't hold back. Do you know the five regrets
01:41:04
of the dying? >> Oh, I have. Yeah. Remind me. >> So they're in both of my books. Um, so
01:41:11
I'm going to probably struggle to remember them, but one of them is the first is not the first, but of the one I
01:41:16
always remember first is I wish I hadn't worked so hard. >> It's a good reminder to us all, isn't
01:41:21
it? Um, one is I wish I had lived a life true to myself and not that which other
01:41:29
people expected of me. One is I wish I'd stayed in touch with my old friends.
01:41:36
One is I wish I would let myself be happier. And I think that is such an important lesson. That word let hits me
01:41:44
every time. So basically by saying that people are saying I realize now that happiness was a choice
01:41:51
>> and I wish I'd let myself be happier. I think that is so critical. And I think
01:41:56
the other one is um I wish I'd had the courage to express my true feelings. >> So you know those are closely aligned.
01:42:04
Yeah. So >> I suppose like you never know when your last you can have your last conversation
01:42:09
with someone. So yeah, maybe anything that you have to say, you should say it immediately.
01:42:14
>> Yeah. And I think our young people are better at doing that. I know that um
01:42:18
>> my boys certainly are with their friends. They're really there for their
01:42:21
friends. >> Have you battled with it with the stiff upper lip English thing?
01:42:27
>> Keep calm and carry on. >> Yeah, it's such a good question because
01:42:29
we are English. No, I think we're very not English in that sense. And and I really I like to remember that when I
01:42:36
first met my husband, Trevor, one of the things I loved about him most was how open and honest he was and with his
01:42:43
emotions. And so I think that is kind of one of the things that saved us in our darkest days is that he's really open
01:42:51
and honest. He's, you know, brutally open about his emotions. He doesn't hide
01:42:55
them and he wears his heart on his sleeve as do our boys and I'm really grateful for that. So, we're Yeah, we
01:43:02
are open and honest. >> I think that's real masculinity in a way, isn't it?
01:43:07
>> I do, too. >> I truly do. Yeah. To be able to be comfortable with that.
01:43:12
>> If if Trevor and the boys were in the next room talking about you behind your
01:43:16
back, what three words would you like them to use to describe you? >> Oh, such a What would they say?
01:43:23
>> Um, I think they'd say hardworking. M >> um I don't know what the word is here, but
01:43:31
I hope that we all believe in following your own your dreams and and kind of plowing your own path.
01:43:41
>> Um and yeah, that I that I love them and you know they love that love is love and
01:43:48
music. >> Yeah, love and music are big for us. >> Yeah. you you got a little emotional
01:43:53
before about dropping um your son off at the airport. Um did you express to him the like the
01:43:58
reason why you you were so emotional about that or did you sort of is he aware of that?
01:44:03
>> I have I have done other times. He actually wasn't at the airport and um
01:44:07
>> where's he off to? >> So soon he will go back to the Caribbean
01:44:11
where he's working. He's just working for his work visa at the moment. And
01:44:15
that's an amazing story cuz he's working with one of my oldest friends who
01:44:20
literally was at my um christristening. So I literally known this guy for years and they are doing yaching media in the
01:44:28
Caribbean. So I'm thrilled for him. So I definitely, you know, I couldn't be
01:44:32
happier. But I just miss him and it's that awful bit of saying goodbye because
01:44:38
I'm thrilled that he's off doing that. I've read some really interesting came
01:44:43
across some really interesting research last year about secure attachment which is kind of the foundation for resilience
01:44:49
and well-being. You want to feel like you belong and you you can make these solid connections and that you are
01:44:56
attached to other people. And the piece that really intrigued me was that this um man I heard speak in America was
01:45:06
talking about that a secure attachment actually had two aspects to it. Caring so that you feel cared for. And I love
01:45:13
this bit. Daring too, so that you feel confident enough to go out to flee the nest to go out into the world and do
01:45:21
your thing knowing that you can come back. So, I'm thrilled that our boys have that daring and you know, I'm I
01:45:29
will always cry when I say goodbye to them because I love them. But I'll I you
01:45:35
know, that's just part of life and there's nothing wrong with crying. That
01:45:37
is just me because I love them and I'm caring and I'm a mom and I'm very lucky
01:45:42
to be a mom. >> Are you proud of yourself? I'm proud of the people I've helped
01:45:51
>> and I'm glad we've kept going and that we're all I'm proud of our
01:45:58
family that we are all still >> together in a messy, chaotic, non-perfect way.
01:46:10
>> You should be. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Lucy from 12 years ago. Like what
01:46:15
would she think of the Lucy of today? She'd be surprised. >> Yeah. And proud of it.
01:46:19
>> Well, really surprised because I never did any public speaking ever until the
01:46:24
earthquakes. So, post quakes, >> Grant Scoffield came down to Christ Church and he said to me, we'll go and
01:46:31
do a kind of resilience road show, shall we? And I went, "No, not me. I don't do
01:46:36
that." And he said to me, Lucy, you need to do that. If you can't do that, then
01:46:40
you're a muppet. Which was good for me. And so that then I started doing it. And
01:46:45
I mean I really anyone out there who hates public speaking I never did any of it. I avoided it all my life and in the
01:46:53
end I've realized that it is just about communication and I was always a writer.
01:46:56
So it's not actually so different. So you just have to overcome the nerves and
01:47:00
you overcome the nerves by doing it. So um I I feel lucky to have had all the opportunities I've had and I feel
01:47:08
amazingly lucky to have the support team I have that have enabled me to do the work I do. And I I do the caring and you
01:47:16
know I go out into the world and nowadays I come back and my husband Trevor and the dogs are there and they
01:47:23
look after me and he does we've completely kind of reverse rolled so he is kind of the house husband now and I
01:47:32
come in and out. So yeah I feel very lucky. >> Dr. Lucy Hol this has been a great
01:47:38
podcast. >> Thank you. >> Yeah >> has been a great chat Dom. Thank you for
01:47:42
giving grief some air time and air space. >> Thanks for being so open about
01:47:47
everything. I I hope it's not too exhausting now. Or is it good exhausting? >> I think it's good exhausting. like yeah
01:47:53
I've often thought that when I haven't wanted to get up and speak about these
01:47:56
things over the years I used to have play this little game with myself and I'd say to myself if I was sitting in
01:48:02
the front row of an audience and I had to get up on the stage and speak to hundreds of people I would say to myself
01:48:09
okay just imagine now that you're not allowed to do it and someone else is going to get up and share then how would
01:48:15
you feel I'd be like okay then I'm up I'm up because actually I do have
01:48:18
something that I want to share I've got some knowledge that I really wish everybody knew more about what
01:48:24
resilience really is and what grief really looks like and grieving requires. So I think being on a mission has really
01:48:31
motivated it ma motivated me and made it much easier for me to do the uncomfortable work that has felt quite
01:48:39
scary at times >> and it's wonderful work and uh the book How will I ever get through this? I feel
01:48:44
like every household should have this either read it now or keep it in case of emergency. Well, I mean it is basically
01:48:51
the kind of um companion guide to working out how you cope with everything that we all go through. Like we all are
01:49:00
living in pretty fullon times where disruption, you know, AI, our digital tech, there's so much going on. And all
01:49:10
of my work is about equipping people to find the strategies, the ways of thinking, acting, and being that work
01:49:18
for them because we're all different. So you have to do you and find what works
01:49:21
for you. So in that sense it is a kind of companion guide to living in the crazy crazy times that we do live in.
01:49:29
>> Yeah. Hey well done and congrat congrats on everything um everything you've done
01:49:34
and all your success and long continued. Dr. Lucy Hone thanks for being on my podcast.
01:49:39
>> Thanks Dom and thanks to everyone who's listened. I really appreciate it.
01:49:46
Let's see.