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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in to Finn. How's the performance going?
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>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver [music] investments. Get in here, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first. >> Emma Gilmore, welcome to my podcast. >> Very excited to be here.
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>> Are you nervous? >> Yes. >> Good. Good. Because this time this time
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yesterday, uh, I was a passenger in your rally car and I was [ __ ] myself. Could [laughter] you tell?
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>> Yeah, I could tell. I had never met you before, so I didn't know if this was
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like you normally or if it was nerves, but yeah, it's kind of cool to be able
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to return the favor and uh yeah, put you out of your comfort zone as I'm doing
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now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's really good to connect. Um for anyone
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that is not familiar with you, who is Emma Gilmore? >> Uh I am a rally driver here in New
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Zealand. Uh I've been rallying gosh for over 20 odd years now. So, um, and being
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able to rally overseas and do lots of different things, but then I'm also a business owner, own a car dealership,
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uh, Gilmore Motor Suzuki in Deneden. And, yeah, proud, uh, proud, uh, born and bred Dened.
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>> And a a badass behind the wheel, like an absolute savage, right? [laughter]
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I think people always get surprised because I'll be chatting like we were casually, you know, just in the car and
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then all of a sudden once the, you know, the clock starts and the and the lights
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go, it's like drop the clutch and you're into it and all of a sudden someone else
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is unleashed. >> Yeah. So, you and I yesterday yesterday morning we're going um backwards and
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forwards down this uh very very narrow like farm track forestry. I don't know
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what you'd call it. Um the there's no no there's not room for two cars and and
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we're like traveling at speed towards like an open open gate and I'm thinking
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we're going to hit that gate. Um it's incredible what you do. Uh like after a
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couple of runs of just like sort of white knuckling watching the road, I ended up sort of finding myself just
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watching watching what you were doing. >> Yeah, it's um it is a real skill. Like
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when being able to take people for a ride is really cool thing about our sport. You know, there's a lot of sports
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that are very skillful, but you'll never get to see someone doing what they do,
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you know, up close and personal. So, in a rally car, obviously, we have normally
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have a co-driver who's the person calling the pace notes for the road ahead. So, we have that passenger seat
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where you can take people for a ride and be able to experience it because when you watch from outside, you just think,
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"Wow, that car is going really fast sideways around a corner, but you don't
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appreciate the amount of inputs that are happening with the throttle and the brake and the um hands, you know, just
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to get that car as smooth as possible." Yeah. Another big surprise for me was so
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we were together in the car for maybe I don't know five or six minutes. It was
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so hot in there. >> Yeah. >> So [laughter] hot. Was that was that just because I was running a hot
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temperature because I was Are you hot as well? >> Yeah, it is hot. So the cars I mean
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they're purpose built to go racing. So there's no um air conditioning. No uh
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you know heat protection to to um well there's some heat protection but you get
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a lot of heat through the transmission tunnel you know with the gearbox and everything. So they run they do run hot
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the cars. Um and then obviously wearing the the helmet and the fireproof protection um with your overalls and um
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you know underwear and stuff. So yeah, it gets very hot. You haven't got much
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exposed skin. So um you know for safety. So >> how how do you handle that with a longer
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like as I said we were in the car for like five or six minutes. How do you handle that if you're in the car for
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hours? >> Uh just fitness is important. Yeah. Being fit and being able to to deal with
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that and um yeah and and I I think experience helps. You know, you just get more more comfortable. I probably wasn't
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as stressed as you were. So [laughter] my my my temperature wasn't as high. >> Do you have do you have fluids in there?
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>> Uh yeah, have a camel pack, but generally won't won't drink during a
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stage because you're that busy and intent on what's happening. But yeah,
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making sure that you rehydrate and and look after your performance, you know, for recovery because that's the the sort
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of um intense thing about rallying is that you go into a stage which can be anything from um you know, 5 km long to
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30 or 40 km long. So you might be driving for 5 minutes or you might be driving for 20 plus minutes. And so you
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know in that time your heart rate everything gets super super high. It's really really intense and then bang
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you're back down into just road driving mode. Your car they're always legal to
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be able to driven on the road. So you then just you know paying attention to road rules and and driving legally
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across the road to the next stage that you get to and then bang your heart rate's up again and you're performing
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for another 5 20 minutes whatever you're doing. So, it's pretty um important that
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fitness because you've got to be able to get your heart rate up and then recover
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as quick as possible to go again. >> Well, I've got some real um baseline
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rallying questions here. So, it's hard with a podcast like this cuz I suppose
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there's a broad audience. So, there'll be like hardcore like rallying motorsport Emma Gilmore fans listening
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[laughter] and there'll be people that know nothing about the sport. So for the hardcores,
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maybe you can, you know, skip through the next five or 10 minutes, but for everyone else to sort of like sort of,
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um, give us a base of of what it is you do. >> Sure. >> So, um, [snorts and clears throat] how how do
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you know you're good at it? But does everyone start does everyone start and you start pretty [ __ ]
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>> That's a good question actually. I because it isn't something that you just
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go, "Oh, yeah, I think I can do this." Or I suppose it's something you think
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you might want to have a go at. For me, I uh I did horse riding in my in my early years and wherever we went as
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children with mom and dad, we went very quickly. So, I guess I was used to speed
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and cornering and those kind of things. But >> why did you go quickly? They always want
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to go. [laughter] >> You have to ask dad. >> Or did dad just have a heavy foot?
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>> I think so. [laughter] >> Um but uh so I started out um the very first motorsport event I remember
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driving was a what they call a grass car or an autocross. So, just a grass paddic
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with cones in a road car just driving around the cones. And I guess I probably had a natural um uh ability to to for
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car control and you know with the car moving and knowing what to do or the wheel work to to um correct it. But
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yeah, I mean that's a huge amount of fun if anyone's ever thinking about getting
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into it or wanting to start a motorsport. You don't have to have the you know the full-on car to get started.
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You can often get into motorsport at grassroots level with just your road car and um and enjoy it that way. What age
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do um rally drivers peak? >> Uh >> you've been you've been doing this a
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long time. >> I have been doing a long time. Yeah. And I mean look at the likes of you know
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famous rally driver Psomeborn um you know who's unfortunately no longer with
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us but he when he passed he was you know just getting into his prime and he was 48 when he passed. He was about to go do
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the World Series >> actually. Yeah. Peter Brock he's another one died in a rally car. Um I think he
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was 61 at the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's a sport that rewards experience cuz you you do get
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smarter. uh you know there's no shortcut for experience with a lot of sports you
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know you've just got to do the mileage got to do the apprenticeship kind of thing of getting that experience so
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>> experience helps a lot um I mean a a great international example is Carlos
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saying senior um who still competes in the DAR rally um you know which is a big international event and he's well in his
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60s but obviously very fit to be able doing that so yeah I think as long as um I I guess in terms of peak you know you
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look at the young guys now they're the ones coming through who've started at a
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really young age and they're doing very very well so Um, yeah, it's a it's a
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trade-off, you know, young and brave, but also experience counts for a lot, too.
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>> Cuz when I watch like Drive, I know it's a different form of motorsport, but when
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I watch Drive to Survive, it's like they're all babies. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they start so young
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in the go-karting and everything. And and and I think that's a little bit in
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rallying as well, but rallying definitely has probably a Well, I mean, all motorsport you can do it at at any
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age, you know, if you're still getting your medical and getting your license,
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it's something you can do for a long time. >> And um co-driver, what does a co-driver
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do? Yeah. So, the co-driver. So, every every rally car will always have two people in it, the driver. And they're
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either called the co-driver or the navigator. Um, and the co-driver kind of makes it sound like that they also
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drive, but generally they they don't drive. They they're always there as the
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passenger. Um, and it's definitely not just a passenger. They uh because we um
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follow what they call a rally route. Um they have a a road book that gives us the directions to get from the rally
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start out to that first stage, through that stage, out to the next stage. So, you're always on a rally route and and
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you have to follow that rally route um or pain of exclusion from the event kind of thing. You're always on a clock, so
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you've always got to be clocking in on a certain time to make sure that when you
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go into the stage, we all start at minute intervals or two-minute intervals. So, everything's very
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regulated to work as a motorsport system. You know, it's not like we go out onto a racetrack and we're all
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starting on the same, you know, start line kind of thing. It's it's done with
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with the clock and um and with these road books. And so, that's what they do.
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they are basically managing us to make sure we get to the places on time on the right directions you know we don't get
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lost um and then once we get into a stage they are reading my description or the driver's description uh of the road
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and how to drive it as fast as possible >> what might they say >> so um it's again it's what the driver
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wants so for example I use a a a note descriptive system that's 1 to eight um
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so for me a one is like a hairpin corner so if you can imagine a corner that basically turns back on itself.
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>> And for me, an eight is something that is just barely turning to the left or
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the right. So, you know, it might be uh one left, 200, 7 uh right, um 300 into a
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four left, something breaking. And so, you're always I mean, that might just
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sounds like gobbly goop, doesn't it? But to me, when you're coming at speed and
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you're wanting to know what's coming up over that crest or what's coming around
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that corner, you're just fully listening to what the driver uh the co-driver is
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telling you because this is what I've already seen. This is what I've described and they're delivering it in
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perfect timing. So, I know what gear I need to be in, how much brake or acceleration I need to get through there
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as fast as possible. >> I I I I get um car sickness if I'm reading while [laughter] a passenger in
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a car. So, I'd be no good for that. How do you How do you train for this? Like
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I'm I'm a runner and to train for a running event, you you run. >> Yes.
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>> How like how how can you train for this? >> Again, it's it's one of the real
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challenges with motorsport because every time you take your car out, it's expensive. You're either you know using
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your tires and fuel and having to have a secure road where you can um uh you know
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do it safely because you can't just go and do it on the on an open road. Um so
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generally when you're learning you're just it's doing lots of club events. Um
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when I very first started, I um contacted a local quarry and they'd let me go in there after hours and just go
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and play effectively because I'd never really been a boy racer. You know, I'd
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never gone out and played on gravel roads. I'd never learned how to do a Scandinavian flick as they call it where
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you turn the car one direction for it to then pivot to go the other direction. So
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all those things I'd never really gone and done as a kid or as a teenager. So
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having an access to a quarry and being able to play safely was was very um fundamental in my learning journey.
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>> And at at the top level, this is something you hear a lot in in Formula
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1. You hear about like it's it's more the car than the driver. Um at the top
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level of rallying, like where you're at, how much of it is the the driver versus
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the car. >> Uh I mean, I sort of think of myself like I'm I'm in the the top level of New
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Zealand, but but we're very much still amateur sport in New Zealand. like everyone in New Zealand has still got a
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day job. You know, there's no one that's really professional except for the likes
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of Hayden Pattern who, you know, has been on the world scene and he's he's
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all our benchmark when we race against him because he's just another level above of of what we drive at because of
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his experience and his mileage and his dedication and all of that kind of thing. So, um I've now forgotten what
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the original question was, what you [laughter] car versus car, >> car versus car, uh driver. Um
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yeah, when when we then look at the world championship where I mean the car Yeah, the the cars are the cars are
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important. Yeah, definitely. But but the drivers are still I think I think in rallying I think it's maybe driver has a
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bigger impact because there's so many other variables with rallying with the
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surface, the road, the co- driver, the you know all those things. But yeah, the the car is important as well.
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>> The the car we were in yesterday, what would that be worth? Uh, so brand new,
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one of those at the moment the euro is really not good for us to be buying cars out of Europe. Um, so if I was buying a
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brand new equivalent car, so my car is is 6 years old now. But, um, I was just discussing that with Ben yesterday and
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um, I think they're about they're about 350 350,000. So for the moment Yeah.
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Yeah. >> What's that like 700,000 bucks? >> Yeah. At least they're crazy. Yeah.
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>> Oh my god. I I didn't pay that for my [laughter] >> if you had to.
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>> But but it's a it's an international car that you It has an international market,
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so it can go anywhere. And >> um and the technology in them is probably what used to be the top tier
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world rally car, you know, 15 years ago. They're just they're serious bits of
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kit, but um yeah, crazy money. Crazy [snorts] money. And if if you had to pie chart it, um what percentage of what you
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do is driving versus say fundraising, keeping sponsors happy, navigating politics, [laughter]
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you know, the whole >> Yeah, the whole thing. >> What I saw yesterday was the fun bit.
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But it again, it was um it was I suppose you'd call it a sponsor's day. So yes,
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you you've been out of the country. I'm sure you'd rather be straight home, but
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you got to, >> you know, drive around schmucks like me for a day. [laughter]
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>> No, not at all. I mean, that's that's the that is the fun bit of the sport.
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And when you do get stuck in the uh grind of the sponsorship finding and the um it's more the it's just hard work
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sometimes, you know, all the logistics, everything that goes into being able to go and do what we did yesterday. There's
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a lot of work behind the scenes. So to finally get back in the car and do the fun bit is is super cool because the
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reality is that probably the fun bit of the whole effort that goes into it is probably like
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>> 10% I'm guessing. I don't know. You don't think about it because you
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probably would go [laughter] this this doesn't stack up. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, do you make any
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money as a driver or is all all the sponsors just just to cover the cost water? >> At the moment, at the moment, I've been
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fortunate enough in my career that at different times I've been paid to drive.
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But if if you wait it all up, the money I've been paid to drive versus the amount of sponsorship I've found to keep
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to keep doing it, um yeah, it's not a you don't do the sport to to uh become
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wealthy. But uh I've been very uh very lucky. I've had amazing sponsors right
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throughout my career like Vantage Windows and Doors who were there with yesterday. Uh they've been with me for
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21 years which is just unreal. So yeah, super lucky. >> Is that your almost your entire career?
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>> Yeah, almost. Yeah, they came on board really early. >> That's such a special relationship.
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That's like like sort of kind of like Matt Watson with um ITM for his fishing
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show. How Yeah. What's in it for them? What's the return on investment for
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them? I think I think what's been super cool was um they they sponsored Pawsum
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um when he was rallying and uh Craig Vincent who's like a mentor to me and he
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used to co-drive for Pawsome um you know has a passion for the sport and he's um
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you know runs the Vantage windows and doors and and the um the other companies. So having that support um you
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know they've been amazingly loyal to me because I've you know I've had the the
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down seasons as well as the good seasons and um and that's that's been great. I
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think they've seen me as a a great ambassador for the sport and um and being a female has always sort of given
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I suppose something that makes me sets me apart from from other drivers. >> Yeah, there's so much to crack into with
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that. Um [laughter] like I'm sure you've seen seismic change in your career. Um but I'm sure there
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were some awful conversations especially early on. We'll get to that. [laughter]
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Um yeah, thanks for all that um yeah, rallying 101. It's really cool. [laughter] Right, we'll go back to the
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early years. Eh. >> Okay. >> Okay. Um, so family dynamics. Dad and granddad both mechanics. You used to
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help your dad build go-karts. >> Oh, that's one picture. [laughter] >> Is that I I can make that sound like
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Yeah. But no, dad dad did a bit of go-karting. So um but yeah, I I mean early days I probably of dad with cars.
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I mean he was always always working in the garage and and building them and um you know in the 80s he built a replica
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listister Jaguar in the garage and he's very very talented um u builder engineer
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type um you know mechanic so yeah just cars were always just cars were always part of the picture I guess and um yeah
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but we never were really into racing because I guess dad was you know working hard in business and and had young
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family so um yeah it was very much that me and my sister we got into horse riding which was another expensive
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Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Parents. Um Yeah. So siblings. So another sister. >> Yes. Older sister, Monica.
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>> Right. So just two girls. >> Yes. >> So were you sort of like um
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>> Yeah. Were you sort of like a daddy's girl? Like you sort of gravitated
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towards the the mechanical stuff? >> Uh I don't know like I always um we're
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really close family and I think you know it was just like when you talk about daddy it was never sort of a gender
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thing I guess is a thing and that's possibly in having another sister. you know, it wasn't wasn't so apparent a
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gender thing of of of being daddy's girl, but you know, we always enjoyed doing things as a family and, you know,
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I enjoyed riding pillion and dad's motorbike and all those kind of things. So, I I enjoyed spending time um with
00:17:00
dad doing I guess what you'd class as more masculine things, I guess. I don't
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know. But, um it was never sort of I guess made a thing if that makes sense. >> Yeah.
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>> And the um the the horse riding thing. So, I hear you're a massive fan of Mark
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Todd. Yes. Um, so you had like um Olympic or Commonwealth aspirations. >> Yeah. And and you know when people
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always ask you who did you look up to? It was definitely Mark Todd. Like I remember him and Charisma winning their
00:17:24
second Olympic gold and it was just so cool. And you know Pony Club Kid and you know seeing what what he achieved was
00:17:29
was amazing. And um you know I think horse riding is such a it's such a humbling sport because it's um you know
00:17:36
horses don't care about your ego at all. you know, they don't care what what
00:17:40
training you've put in or that it might be your birthday and that they should
00:17:43
really perform and be nice to you. They they just, you know, they they keep you very level and um you know, and and I
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was, you know, reflecting on it growing up having these um you know, women in front of me riding their horses and
00:17:54
stuff and they're just so gutsy. Like it's such a gutsy sport and um and I
00:17:58
think it was probably, you know, those kind of people growing up as a as a young girl looking up to the you know,
00:18:03
the older riders and and seeing what they were achieving that was really inspiring for me.
00:18:08
Why did you give up on that dream? >> Uh it kind of came to a head like I it
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was what I wanted to do but then probably in my gut I knew it sort of came to a head this day. I had this
00:18:19
young horse and uh he I'd asked him to do something and he didn't want to do it
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and [laughter] he started rearing up and um and I got off cuz I was scared and I
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thought ah god to win this argument you know I'm going to have to go and do this
00:18:34
blah blah blah you know get him tired so I can I was like [sighs and gasps] I'm
00:18:39
just this I'm out I've had enough you know and and it wasn't like it was just
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one day obviously had been building I'd had a friend that had a really bad um
00:18:48
life-changing injury from horse riding. Had another, you know, person I knew had
00:18:52
a bad head injury from horse riding. Um, a very very talented um, rider in New Zealand scene. She had a a fall that had
00:19:00
left her as a as a um, you know, paraplegic and you're just like, I'm not
00:19:04
getting the kick out of this for the risk that I'm taking and, you know, the
00:19:08
effort that I'm putting in cuz it's such a lifestyle. The horses, you know, it's
00:19:11
everything. It's every day. It's, you know, it's a real commitment. And um
00:19:15
yeah, and I guess part of it was kind of feeling that pressure because you've got
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the horse trucks, the horse floats, the paddics, the horses, you know, like it's
00:19:22
huge, you know, it's everything. And and [snorts] so there's probably a bit of
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you keep doing it because of the pressure and the momentum you've got there. But then this isn't me. I'm I'm
00:19:32
just not happy. And and I was amazing. It was amazing that my parents, you know, when I said to them, you know, and
00:19:36
they were like, you know, they were really supportive of my decision. and um you know and they just said you you'd
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always regret injuring yourself doing something that your heart's not in you
00:19:46
know that that you're not fully behind. Um and yeah and it sort of was just such
00:19:50
relief when I when I made the call. You know there was tears of sadness and and everything you're giving up on but it
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was also tears of relief cuz I kind of was listening to to what my gut was saying.
00:20:00
>> What age was that? >> I think it was about 19 or 20. >> Right. Oh. So you pretty much replaced
00:20:06
that immediately with um >> I'd started navigating. So I'd started
00:20:10
in the co-driver's seat for my sister Monica who had started rallying and also
00:20:14
my cousin Gwyn who was also rallying. So the family was sort of discovering rallying in the time that I was also
00:20:20
deciding about my horse riding. But that it didn't influence it at all. Like I
00:20:25
was enjoying the the navigating. I enjoyed being the co-driver in the in the um rally car, but it wasn't why um I
00:20:31
gave up the horses. It was definitely a a sole decision. And and because I then had time, I like went and got into other
00:20:38
things like I did a season of rowing and did um you know downhill mountain biking
00:20:42
and got into motorbikes like trail riding and stuff. So because horses was so all-consuming it was um I hadn't had
00:20:48
that time to try and do other sports or other things. >> Can you remember the the first the first
00:20:54
um time you drove, the first time you raced? >> Uh I do. So, I had um the opportunity to
00:21:02
uh to buy my cousin's rally car, which was a Mitsubishi Evo3, which at the time
00:21:07
was a really good car cuz we were sort of talking early 2000s, so it wasn't such an old car then. And um the the
00:21:13
plan was I wanted to do the Tiger Rally, which was a is a week-long tarmac event
00:21:18
at the end of the year. And um and I'd co-driven in that rally, so I was familiar with the rally. Um and I
00:21:24
thought that would be a good event to to go do. And um cuz I want to go do that,
00:21:28
dad said, "Well, I think I should sit with you on your first event just to make sure you're going to be okay." And
00:21:32
so we headed up to the North Island to do a one-day tarmac rally um in Tamanui. And so we head off into this event. And
00:21:41
I was I guess I was used to the speed cuz I'd been sitting beside someone, but
00:21:44
it's a little bit different when you're in charge of the pedals and the steering
00:21:47
wheel. But um dad is always been very um calm and encouraging and always probably
00:21:54
believed in our ability before maybe you know me and my sister did you know he was always he would never be a a
00:21:59
panicker or you know going watch out watch out or anything like that. So he was always very brave sitting there but
00:22:05
always sort of backed us and through with his encouragement and just sort of improving during the day, you know, we
00:22:10
ended up finishing we finished sixth overall out of a 100 cars and and we won our class and and I just loved it. Like
00:22:17
it wasn't I didn't do it to win, if that makes sense. Like I just love the thrill
00:22:20
of having a road to yourself. There's no oncoming traffic. There's no police
00:22:24
officers. It's like just drive as fast as you can and um you know and the feeling of a car when you're driving it
00:22:30
as fast as you can and it's moving and it's dancing like it's just it reminds
00:22:34
me so much of the horse riding um you know being at one with a machine or being at one with a horse. It's it's a
00:22:39
really addictive feeling. It's cool. >> Six out of 100's amazing. >> Yeah. Well, I
00:22:45
>> that that that to me says there's um an element of perhaps natural talent.
00:22:48
>> I think so. And I absolutely and and and from that I had a friend who was a
00:22:54
professional co-driver and um and I just casually said to him about you know the
00:22:58
result I'd got and he was like that's that's really good and I'm sort of like
00:23:01
oh yeah I didn't sort of pick up on it and um I then had the opportunity because I was in the organizing
00:23:08
committee with our local rally the targetgo rally and at these rallies before the the course kind of goes fully
00:23:14
live they have what they call a course car or a zero car that goes in before the field. um just to make sure that you
00:23:20
know spectators know the cars are coming and all that kind of stuff. So I had the
00:23:24
opportunity to be the zero car for our home rally and um I asked my friend the professional co-driver I said I would
00:23:31
well I asked dad I said dad would you co-drive for me on the gravel and he's
00:23:34
like well I I don't know how to drive on gravel so you're better off getting
00:23:38
someone to sit beside you who can teach you how to drive on gravel. Um and I asked a few local people and none of
00:23:44
them were that keen. They're [laughter] probably quite smart. And um and I said
00:23:48
to to Glenn, I said, "Would you come over and and sit with me?" And because
00:23:53
being a professional co-driver, he's sat beside so many drivers and he's actually
00:23:57
seen what the good drivers are doing. So it was a really smart move really like it ended up I didn't appreciate it fully
00:24:03
at the time, but with hindsight, it was it worked out really well. So he came over, we're heading out to the first
00:24:08
stage, and I said to him, I said, "So so how do I drive on gravel?" And um he
00:24:13
thought I was taking the piss. He didn't realize that I'd never driven on gravel.
00:24:16
[laughter] I maybe admitted that fact when I'd been telling or asking him about coming over
00:24:21
and and sitting with me. So, um it was a again a sort of a thrown in the deep end. And um with his being able to apply
00:24:29
his you know feedback and uh you know all the things he was teaching me um you know over that course of that weekend we
00:24:36
you know we we weren't officially in the rally but we were sitting really competitive like top 10 times type
00:24:41
thing. So, I just had a natural feel for it, I guess. And I think a lot of the horse riding skills apply. It's that
00:24:49
whole thing of like when things are turning to [ __ ] like when it's like, "Oh, I break late or the line's wrong or
00:24:55
something's not good, like there's no abort button, like you've still just got
00:24:59
to focus forward and and sort of go for it." And I think [clears throat] that's
00:25:02
what crossed over really well from the horse riding into the cars. >> How many how many women were on the
00:25:08
scene at that point? It's it's still still quite a male-dominated sport e but
00:25:11
I'd imagine in the early 2000s even more so. >> Well, we've had we've had really
00:25:15
successful um we have had successful female drivers coming through and or not coming through sorry like competing
00:25:21
before me. So Deborah Kibble um she's a national rally champion and she became
00:25:26
the production national rally champion when I was co-driving. So for me again I suppose coming from horse riding gender
00:25:33
wasn't a thing in horse riding. So for me it wasn't really a thing like I just
00:25:37
didn't see it as a thing when I came into the motorsport either. It was more
00:25:40
it was more the the some of the men that had the [laughter] the thing you know about getting beaten by a girl than then
00:25:46
for me seeing any reason why I couldn't do it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Any any sort of comments that
00:25:51
stuck with you from in particular those early days? >> Uh I'll give you an example. I put on
00:25:57
Instagram um yesterday that you're coming in here and are there any questions and there was someone that
00:26:00
made a a comment. It was a joke, but just not a very good one. Saying, "Ask
00:26:05
her. Ask her if she um Yeah. You know, if she curbs her rims more than the guys," [laughter] or something like
00:26:10
that. Just a dumb comment. >> Yeah. Um I feel like I feel like you had that added pressure that you had to be
00:26:17
doing a better job like as in because otherwise you'd be feeding the stereotype of curving your wheels or not
00:26:23
be able to park or, you know, so I guess you you had all this you felt more pressure because you didn't want to feed
00:26:28
that stereotype of of that expectation. But and I guess I'll never know what it
00:26:33
would be like to be a young man starting in the sport. So I don't know what pressures they feel and face, you know.
00:26:38
So it's it's it's for me um I always I always saw it as a as a positive advantage because I stood out
00:26:47
and it helped for media exposure for my sponsors for all of those other things that came with it. So I I focused on it
00:26:54
but on the positives rather than the negatives. >> It's a great way of looking at it.
00:26:57
>> Yeah. But it's it's like I say, I'll never know what it would have been like
00:27:00
to have been had my talent and just rock up and already have that kind of street
00:27:05
cred that you're okay, you know, rather than feeling like you've always got to
00:27:08
prove yourself or make sure that you feel like you belong. So, >> yeah, it's it's an interesting one.
00:27:14
[snorts] >> Um, how if if in any way has the industry changed for women since you
00:27:18
first started and is there anything that still needs to change? >> I think like I was again reflecting on
00:27:23
this, I think it was it's And again, I've been lucky enough to race overseas, so I see it in different
00:27:30
countries. I think in New Zealand, it's it's very much um quite accepted. Like I
00:27:36
don't I don't think it's that big a deal because I I and and again, I've probably
00:27:39
given this a lot of thought because I get always get asked questions about it, but I feel Kiwi women are really
00:27:44
capable. And I don't know if it's that from the early days when the men went
00:27:49
away to war and the women were left to run the farms and do all that stuff like Kiwi women have always been able to, you
00:27:53
know, muck and get things done. you know, we're not princesses as a general rule. You know, we're all very very very
00:27:59
capable and I and I feel there's sort of that level of respect from the men towards our Kiwi women and that's sort
00:28:05
of what I feel. But when I've raced in Europe for example definitely more um uh
00:28:12
chauvinistic I feel towards women you know it it again but then I now say more recently I feel it hasn't it has
00:28:19
improved a lot and I feel like now it's almost not even a thing that there's a
00:28:24
woman there competing I don't know you know I don't see it from the outside in
00:28:28
but I think when you see the likes of what's happening uh on the global stage
00:28:32
with you know where they have these women's series and um with the in the Formula 1 with the women's academy. Um
00:28:39
it's yeah, it's changing. It's definitely changing. It's um and and
00:28:47
but yeah, like I say, I feel like it's always been a a strong a strength of our
00:28:50
of our Kiwi competition. Um but probably now see a lot more women in the [snorts]
00:28:56
navigators and the co-driving and the organizing. There's Yeah, like I think
00:28:59
at one of their target rallies recently, like they had really high percentage of
00:29:03
female competition, which was awesome to see. and you've been doing it um such a
00:29:07
long time now. Do do you do you get like you know female drivers coming up to you
00:29:11
in their say 20s or even 30s saying you're the reason I got into the sport. >> Uh I haven't not not directly nothing
00:29:18
comes to mind directly but I think the really the cool thing is like well again the we kids that I used to be bouncing
00:29:25
on my hip or someone would bring up in the service park and now like these big [laughter] kids or adults teenagers type
00:29:30
thing and just I guess inspiring people. Well, I don't know if they necessarily
00:29:34
have to be getting into the sport, but just that fact of giving things a go, you know, not being afraid to try
00:29:39
things. >> Yeah. Um, some career highlights. >> Yeah. What What is it for you if you had
00:29:45
to say your top three career highlights? What would they be? >> Uh, it would be becoming the first uh
00:29:51
female driver for McLaren. That was >> 2022. >> Yeah, that was very special. Uh, winning
00:29:56
uh becoming the first woman to win a round of the New Zealand Rally Championship 2016. Yeah.
00:30:00
>> Yep. And Third thing, >> the 2015 woman in motorsport award. >> Yeah, that was that was cool. I think I
00:30:10
think it would be a more general thing in that the cool sports the cool other motorsports I've got to go and do, you
00:30:16
know, overseas like um I finished second in the Asia Pacific Series in09. That was pretty cool, too. So, yeah, it was a
00:30:22
cool experience. >> Yeah. So the the McLaren thing, uh, first female factory driver for McLaren,
00:30:28
which is sick. I think it makes it even more sort of poignant or [laughter] special with the Kiwi Connection with
00:30:34
Bruce McLaren. Very cool. >> Um, yeah. How did that opportunity come about?
00:30:38
>> Uh, >> you get an email or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was very I
00:30:43
going [clears throat] to further a step backwards is uh this series came on the scene sort of postco I think it was
00:30:48
2021. It came out. There was this press release. It was the first I'd heard of
00:30:52
it and a a friend sent it to me and he says um this would be perfect for you and it was a a series that was going to
00:30:58
happen and it was um going to be fully electric off-road racing vehicles going to parts of the planet that had never
00:31:05
seen racing before showing that racing could be done in a sustainable way. Um and every car would have a male and a
00:31:11
female driver. And um I thought, well, that sounds very out there. like, is this actually real or is it going to be
00:31:17
like a simulator race type thing cuz it just seems so futuristic. Um he's like,
00:31:21
"No, no, it's actually real." So, this started being talked about in it must
00:31:26
have been 2020. So, 2021 was the first season that it happened. And um I like I desperately wanted to be part of of the
00:31:34
championship because I was like, I wanted to get a seat in one of the teams so that I could do this international
00:31:38
racing. And um I basically was talking to this team all the way through. You know, I was waiting for the contract to
00:31:46
go to the testing to do all the the signing up and everything. It all sounded great, but the funding never
00:31:51
came through. And so the the entry never happened. So I ended up without a seat for the very first season of this
00:31:56
series, which was called Extreme E. And um I was you know beyond disappointed cuz I was like I so wanted to be there
00:32:03
you know and it was this opportunity for women in motorsport to be on the world stage cuz it's never been done before
00:32:09
where we're basically given that you know equal opportunity up there because
00:32:13
I've had many overseas opportunities but um quite often it's you're just the
00:32:18
token girl. They don't really need you to be competitive as in this was a car
00:32:21
where you're 50/50 part of the team. You needed the to be competitive for the
00:32:24
team to be successful. So really wanted to be part of it. um so disappointed. But then I ended up talking with a team
00:32:32
that um they needed a stand-in driver for a couple of events because their female first female driver had other
00:32:38
commitments with her racing. So I was took the opportunity because it was a way to get seen and hopefully get an
00:32:44
opportunity for another seat. Um, so that was happening, but in the meantime, uh, this press release came out
00:32:51
overnight saying that McLaren was going to be joining the series in the following year. And I was like, wow,
00:32:56
McLaren, how cool would that be? That would be amazing. You know, who do I need to speak to there, Zack? And I'm
00:33:01
like, man, I've got an email from Zack. And I just, it was one of those early
00:33:06
morning where you flick through your inbox and you're like, yeah, it's just,
00:33:09
you know, spam, whatever. And it's like, >> and it was an email from him wanting to
00:33:12
speak to me. And, um, you know, it all happened so fast. So you know say that was the Saturday morning I was talking
00:33:17
to him that night had another interview with more people on the Monday and yeah contracts and all that sort of stuff
00:33:23
started happening. So it was so surreal you know one minute you're watching this
00:33:28
man who's up on drive to survive you know running McLaren and and I mean McLaren you as a child you you know it's
00:33:34
such a it's a name you're so proud of to be associated with New Zealand. um
00:33:38
you're just you know motoring royalty and uh >> yeah it just you could you could never I
00:33:43
could never have scripted it or dreamt it or imagined it that um you know that I would get to drive for them. It's just
00:33:50
you know I'm a rally driver from New Zealand not not an F1 driver obviously.
00:33:55
[laughter] >> It's it's why um will there ever be a female F1 driver?
00:34:01
>> I hope so. I hope so. >> Why has there not been until now? I think
00:34:07
I think the thing that I mean I mean you can see it now with Liam Lawson in in the Formula 1. It is such a hard sport
00:34:15
like and everyone now has a much better appreciation of when when you watch the Drive to Survive series on Netflix is
00:34:21
you know it's it's not just your talent. Talent's one part of it but like we were
00:34:25
discussing earlier like everyone is super talented at that level. I mean they're the 20 best drivers in the world
00:34:30
you could argue but you then need the car and you need the money. You need the backing. You need someone in your corner
00:34:35
that's, you know, helping things happen, but then you also need a bit of luck,
00:34:39
you know, like it it's hard if you're not running at the front of the field.
00:34:42
It's, you know, you're dealing with all the back markers, you're dealing with
00:34:44
other race traffic, you know, it's it's just such a tough sport. Such a tough
00:34:48
sport. And and I think, you know, I think it's it's so overlooked that, you
00:34:53
know, there's there's so many talented race car drivers out there that have
00:34:57
never made it to F1, you know, like so, >> you know, I'd love I'd love to say that
00:35:02
if a female will get there, but, you know, there's there's thousands of these
00:35:07
talented drivers out there, you know, so we start with so such a smaller pool of
00:35:12
girls at the bottom, you know, there's not as many girls doing it. So, it's,
00:35:15
you know, to filter to get to that top top spot, you know, it it's a pretty pretty tough road to get there.
00:35:21
>> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's an interesting insight. Um, yeah, we should be we should be so proud
00:35:25
of Liam Lawson, like the odds that he's defied to get where he is. >> Absolutely amazing. and just um you know
00:35:31
and just they're just they're kind of treated like um Hollywood stars you know
00:35:36
the criticisms that they get you know like you can see how quickly it's turned
00:35:39
on Oscar who was you know absolutely dominating the start of the season and now he's having a having a tough run but
00:35:46
I mean you don't lose talent you know he's still a super super talented driver
00:35:49
but there's so many other things that come into it >> you know so back to you and the McLaren
00:35:54
thing so um so when you when you get the good news like do you have to are you sworn to secrecy Yeah. How for how long?
00:36:01
>> Uh it was about it's about four four or five months. >> Oh my god. Who who did you tell?
00:36:07
>> Uh family knew, friends knew, and I mean yeah, it was um yeah, it was a hard
00:36:12
secret to sit on. [laughter] >> That's such a long time to be sitting on
00:36:16
a secret. Oh my god. It was um yeah, it's still it still gives me goosebumps
00:36:21
thinking about it because it was just such a and it was such a thing that I never saw coming this late in my career,
00:36:27
you know, like you kind of you're so impatient when you start in a sport and
00:36:30
you so want to achieve and you so want to get to the top and then when things when you sort of have that dose of
00:36:35
reality that [ __ ] this is really hard and [laughter] it's there's a lot of
00:36:39
things that go against you and you know to sort of to have kept having that tenacity to stick at it that um yeah to
00:36:47
then get rewarded with that kind of opportunity was just amazing. >> Your your staff at um Gilmore Motors for
00:36:53
months they must have been like Emma's in a really really good mood and we don't know why were you just like
00:36:58
grinning from ear [laughter] to ear for months. >> Um like they would have been in my
00:37:02
circle I think when I was when I was telling them what was happening. So um >> yeah but it was it was when I had then I
00:37:08
then went overseas quite early on there because that was when I was getting those standin drives with the other
00:37:14
team. So, um, yeah, so I was over in the UK and then couldn't get home because of
00:37:18
CO and all those other things. So, probably made it easier to keep the secret when [laughter]
00:37:22
>> um, and, um, yeah, the Extreme A with McLaren. What's it like driving an all
00:37:26
electric rally car compared to a traditional one? >> Uh, I got such a shock when I first
00:37:31
jumped in the car cuz how they looked on TV to then driving one like the initially the very first car, they kind
00:37:36
of evolved a bit. So, the first team I drove with in 2021 like they're they were that was an awful car to drive.
00:37:43
[laughter] Yeah, big and heavy. The power was amazing. Like electric is just instant,
00:37:49
you know, it's like a really fast golf cart because you don't have to worry
00:37:52
about gears. So, you just, you know, put to the floor and and away you go kind of
00:37:56
thing and and amazing torque. But, um they're very they didn't have great
00:37:59
suspension, so they were very um bouncy and the way they'd move around and the
00:38:04
steering wasn't very quick, so it was really hard to catch them when they did
00:38:07
get into a slide or get into a bump type thing. And then the tracks we were racing on weren't proper racetracks.
00:38:11
They were like off-road tracks back then. The very first one I raced at was in Greenland which was an amazing
00:38:17
spectacle. We were up in um Kaggleac and it was, you know, underneath the world's
00:38:21
second biggest glacia. We were racing in the in the glacia bed underneath it which was just unreal. But it was rough
00:38:28
and um yeah, just the cars kicking around and bouncing and stuff. It was um yeah, it was sort of a baptism by fire.
00:38:33
I was like, "Holy hell, this is this is hard." >> Got it. Yeah. Um the sport's taken you
00:38:39
to some cool places, eh? very cool places. Yeah. Amazing. >> Incredible. Um, what kind of support and
00:38:46
resources does a team like McLaren provide that maybe you hadn't experienced before? It was a real eye
00:38:51
opener just getting into a a an absolute um I mean there's no bigger team really
00:38:58
you know so you're at that level and the my team manager the the first season was
00:39:02
just amazing and he had um been with McLaren for a long time and you know he says to me he says if if you can think
00:39:07
of anything that's going to give us an advantage you know anything that's going
00:39:10
to you know help us be perform better or whatever just just tell us you know and
00:39:15
coming from basically racing with budget restraints with, you know, all those things. You know, as an amateur, it's a
00:39:22
real mindset shift to be able to think, well, if I can think about it, you know,
00:39:26
these guys can make things happen. And just that pursuit of excellence is is very cool to be um exposed to cuz you
00:39:33
can just see how how they're um how they're able to perform at that level.
00:39:37
And and it was cool also because through that time when I was with them was when
00:39:41
they were having an absolutely terrible time. you know, they weren't performing,
00:39:45
they weren't doing well, but on at that level, you could see the steps they were putting in place to get
00:39:52
things right so that they were going to perform, you know, and and I think that's it's really cool, you know, when
00:39:56
you apply it to business or your own life is just that, you know, it's sometimes you're making really tough
00:40:01
decisions that aren't popular at all, you know, especially from the keyboard
00:40:04
warriors out there saying, you know, what are they doing? But they had their plan. They knew what they needed to do,
00:40:10
what steps they needed to put in place to achieve at that top level. Oh, that's
00:40:14
inspiring. Are are you familiar with the term imposter syndrome? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Did you Did you Did you
00:40:19
experience that that at all? Were you like, "Oh my god, what am I what am I
00:40:23
doing?" Yeah. >> How do you get over that and and accept that you do belong to be there and
00:40:28
that's why you are there? >> It's uh the very first event I I did with McLaren. Um uh had a terrible
00:40:34
experience basically. Um my teammate had got the car into first place in the race. He came in, handed the car over to
00:40:40
me in the switch zone. I jump in. I put the car into drive and it just doesn't
00:40:45
go. And I'm like, "What? What?" And all the other cars disappear in front of me.
00:40:49
And I'm then eventually we start the car. We get going. I go out and you know, we finished the race in last
00:40:54
place. And I'm just like I I was blaming myself. I went out there. I just blamed
00:40:57
myself the whole lap. Like what did I do? You know, and it wasn't anything that I'd done. Like it was something
00:41:03
that was wrong with the car. But I had beaten myself up that whole lap, you know, just thinking, "What the hell are
00:41:08
you doing, you freaking idiot?" didn't sleep at all that weekend, you know, like it was just it was just all
00:41:13
the pressure. Like it was freaking you know I ended up doing this amazing move just I call it a fluke but anyway it was
00:41:20
amazing move that that was really cool. So I sort of we redeemed ourselves we ended up winning race anyway wasn't a
00:41:25
great weekend but I was like I I can't cope with this pressure like this is just not not not working. So um I
00:41:33
actually reached out to to Courtney Duncan. I said who do you have anyone cuz we're local like with with some of
00:41:38
the place. So I said, "Do you know anyone sports psych that you'd recommend
00:41:40
for helping me?" And she gave me um the name of someone Nat and I met with her
00:41:46
and started working with her. And so I I'm suppose I when I know things aren't
00:41:51
going well, I'll try and get advice or help or support to get things back on
00:41:55
track. And so um yeah, started working with a sports psych and and I've worked
00:41:59
with different sports psyches over my career. It wasn't a new thing to me, but
00:42:02
it was just a different stage in my career where I needed a different kind of help. And um and that was that was
00:42:09
really it was it was a game changer because it just it just took that pressure off because I was trying to
00:42:14
control things I couldn't control, you know, like there's so much you can't
00:42:16
control in in sport and everything. And as long as I was looking after myself and um and making sure I was in the best
00:42:23
possible position to do what I could do, that's that's all you can do, you know,
00:42:27
when you're out there performing. >> Yeah. Well, there's that saying, control
00:42:29
the controllable. So, it's so cool to hear that you um Yeah. You and Courtney
00:42:33
Duncan have got a you know, a relationship. She's been on the podcast as well. She's so inspiring. She's
00:42:38
awesome. >> Amazing. Amazing girl. >> Incredible. Did you get to um tour the
00:42:42
um McLaren's Technology Center, the the HQ? Oh, what's that like? I've seen I've
00:42:46
seen like drone shots online and I've seen clips on YouTube. What's it like
00:42:49
being there? >> It's I mean, there were so many pinch me moments. It's just surreal because it's
00:42:54
it's as cool as it appears. Whenever you see the pictures of it, it's like you're
00:42:58
walking into like something from James Bond or something. I don't know. It's
00:43:01
just amazing. and the fact it's such an old building like it's now you know it's
00:43:05
nearly 20 years old but it still looks and feels modern. It was very futuristic for its time. But um
00:43:12
>> yeah, I mean it was it was an amazing experience just you know being with I
00:43:16
mean every every person that's there is excellent in their field you know so
00:43:20
whether you're doing dealing with the the PR machine you know what they're
00:43:24
dealing with and how they're um creating the content and you know all the videoing the you know everything is just
00:43:29
done to the highest level. So it was it was an amazing experience. >> Have you got any memorabilia at home or
00:43:35
>> lots of [laughter] memorabilia? No McLaren, sadly. >> No. Yeah, that's what I mean. You didn't
00:43:41
Yeah. [laughter] didn't steal anything from the tour. >> No, I remember one of the um interviews
00:43:46
I was doing when it had just been announced and um and uh you know, I was traveling on the on the train back home.
00:43:52
There was no no McLaren. We were within the eco-friendly uh team of the uh of the McLaren lineup. [laughter]
00:43:57
>> Now, um when you type your name into Google, you know how Google Google completes things.
00:44:04
Um the first thing it comes up with is um Emma Gilmore crash. Uh >> gosh, good to know.
00:44:10
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Do you are you are you okay talking about that?
00:44:14
>> Yeah, sure. >> Yeah. So um this was 2023 in in Italy. Um how many times
00:44:20
>> this is kind of bookending it? This is kind of the end of the McLaren journey.
00:44:23
[laughter] >> Is this is this why it was the end of the McLaren journey? >> Yeah.
00:44:27
>> Oh, really? Oh, [laughter] it's um it's sickening. like you you see
00:44:32
the you you you see the crash and it's it's like it's a miracle that you're
00:44:35
sitting in front of me today, but I suppose that says a lot about like the safety features and the technology of
00:44:40
these things, but it it's it's awful to watch. Yeah, it it's a horrific it's a
00:44:44
horrific crash and uh when it happened, so it was in the uh buildup to the Sardinian event, the round of the
00:44:52
extreme eeries and um and it was our we'd been to this venue before, so we knew the track quite well, but it was
00:44:59
the very first um practice lap that we're out there with and we'd made some
00:45:03
changes to the car, which I guess this was the first high-speed corner I'd really gone into at this
00:45:09
higher speed. So, I was doing aboutund and I think it was about 120 km an hour as I go into this corner and I was
00:45:17
already looking up like I was about to start my next lap like I was heading up the track and and then I'm aware of the
00:45:22
car and I'm like, "Oh, the rear of the car was still rotating on me." And at
00:45:27
that point of the corner, it shouldn't have still been rotating on me like it
00:45:30
was and and I thought I was still in control when really the crash was already starting. Basically the the
00:45:37
suspension had just had bottomed out as it as it hit the grip level and the car just started to to roll. So um I I
00:45:44
blacked out in the crash and um and when I came to I didn't have much car around
00:45:50
me. All the panels and everything had had flown off, flown out. It was um you know I was there and I I remember seeing
00:45:57
blood on my gloves and I was like where on earth has that come from? So you're
00:46:00
busy sort of touching to find out what what's happened and stuff. And um I could hear my engineer on the radio
00:46:05
asking if I was okay and I was like yeah that was really really big. So but I didn't realize how big it was until like
00:46:12
I then had you know got you know medical assistance straight away and taken off to hospital and spent a night in the
00:46:18
hospital and I hadn't actually seen the footage until the next day and then I
00:46:22
was like yeah wow that was that was freaking massive. And um you know the the poor old crew like the guys that you
00:46:28
know I work with mechanics and all of that like it happened right in front of them kind of in front of the pit box and
00:46:33
they were you know very very scared or worried you know until they saw that I was okay. So yeah it was it was awful.
00:46:40
>> It's hard to know how many times the car rolls like six seven maybe eight.
00:46:44
>> Yeah it's it was the violence of it and and the fact the ground was so hard so
00:46:47
when it was impacting it was yeah they were big big hits. >> Yeah. So, from what I can gather, yes,
00:46:53
so hospitalized, concussion, whiplash, sore ribs, broken cracked ribs, uh overextended knee, and some facial cuts.
00:47:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. I um I I I bent the throttle pedal cuz like I said, I thought I was
00:47:06
still trying to save it when really I was along for the ride. But um yeah, because generally you you try and power
00:47:11
out of something when you're in a in a bad spot. But and and in that instant
00:47:14
when I knew it was going bad, I was I was assessing my options, but I didn't
00:47:19
have any options. I was already along for the ride. >> What does what does a a crash like that
00:47:23
do to a driver mentally and physically? >> Uh for me, I think it was um it was hard for me to
00:47:34
uh I I didn't do anything wrong. That was a really hard thing for me to to get, you
00:47:41
know, >> sort of blame yourself. >> Yeah. Or or to learn from it. It's like,
00:47:44
well, okay, well, I won't do that again to to stop that from happening. But I I
00:47:48
didn't do anything, you know, like basically the car just fell over at speed and and so it's really hard to
00:47:53
then have confidence that you can go and push that car again because it's like,
00:47:56
oh, it did that to me last time. I don't really want to do that again. So, um and
00:48:01
and for me because the recovery was so long, like the concussion really knocked me around. Um it was my second
00:48:07
concussion. I'd had a bad crash early on my career as well. So, >> 2007.
00:48:12
>> Yeah. So, um, it was I guess I was also nervous of what my effects were going to
00:48:17
be because I knew how bad that concussion had been. So, it's never good having multiple concussions. And
00:48:22
thankfully, they were long time apart. But, um, it was a long time out of the car and it was a long time for me to
00:48:29
reflect and think, do I want to what do I want to keep doing? You know, is it is
00:48:32
it a sport I want to keep doing? What, you know, where do I sit with it all? And I and I I didn't really know how I
00:48:38
was going to feel until I sat back in a car and and and, you know, and raced. M.
00:48:44
What did that um recovery from concussion look like? >> Interestingly, this concussion was quite
00:48:49
different to the first concussion in that um it was the fatigue. I just would get so tired and um and irritable. The
00:48:56
the noise, you know, if you're in a noisy environment with coffee machines and people talking and chairs scraping
00:49:01
and like the I just get, you know, it was just it was just so intense and so hard. Have you Have you had a head
00:49:07
injury? >> No. No. Thankfully, I I had um a guy on the podcast recently, Steve Divine, who
00:49:12
played for Oakland and the All Blacks and suffered between 30 and 40 concussions in his life and um
00:49:18
>> he he he gets some injection now every couple of years, which sort of has
00:49:22
controlled it, but um >> it sounded brutal. He after he finished playing he said like four out of every
00:49:28
seven days he'd be in bed with the lights off with a bucket next to the bed,
00:49:31
>> like unable to It's not It's not living, eh? >> No, it's um it's it's it gives you a
00:49:36
real insight. like I thankfully for me it kept getting better. But the the difficulty with it is you don't know
00:49:42
when you're getting tired. It's not like it sort of gets sore. It just that you
00:49:45
you sort of pick up on the symptoms. And the the encouraging thing was I guess that in the you know 15 or so years
00:49:52
between my head injuries just the treatment and the knowledge around head injuries now is so much better than what
00:49:57
it was you know 15 years ago. And um and I think that's really I mean that's
00:50:02
great cuz you know at least people >> understand that you know you don't put
00:50:05
yourself back into risky situations and um you know I was able I had access to um a few cool things like a a virtual
00:50:11
reality headset that was really good for tracking the eye movement and you know making sure all those kind of things
00:50:16
were coming back on track as well. >> Um what sort of toll did it take on your
00:50:20
mental health? >> Yeah, it was tough. It's tough. It's it's um it is it just gets you you just
00:50:28
get questioning everything really I guess um you know for me it was like with the McLaren the McLaren
00:50:37
contract came to an end and it kind of it was kind of a relief in some ways because I didn't have to make that
00:50:44
decision because I don't think I would have I think my decision would have been
00:50:47
to not go and race those cars again because of the danger of them you know um when I I I I've never watched the
00:50:55
incar of the footage of the crash and I don't think I want to see it. >> Oh, does that exist?
00:50:59
>> It does exist. Yeah. And um knowing that the car didn't keep me as safe as it
00:51:04
could have and it was actually probably more luck than anything that I didn't
00:51:07
get worse injuries. Um and so for me, you know, I didn't I wouldn't go and
00:51:12
roll the dice again. You know, I feel I was very very lucky to to walk away how I did. And that's still bad enough, you
00:51:18
know, like I still shouldn't be getting injured like that. So I um feel like why
00:51:24
would I roll the dice again uni? Just I just wouldn't. But I didn't know how I
00:51:28
would feel when I got in a rally car if I'd still feel that same way. You know,
00:51:31
it was sort of the thing that probably um uh created a lot of stress for me not knowing what how I was going to feel and
00:51:39
how it was going to be. [snorts] [sighs] >> Yeah. How um how do you rebuild that
00:51:46
confidence? Are you gunshy to begin with when you get behind the wheel again? Um,
00:51:52
it's really when I when I finally got back in my rally car, um, it it was such a relief
00:52:00
because I felt so good to be back in it. >> Like a comfort zone. >> Yeah. Like as in I felt happy to be back
00:52:06
in there like as in it wasn't like I was feeling stressed or worried or, you
00:52:09
know, all those kind of things which was a relief cuz I didn't know what I was
00:52:13
going to, you know, if it was going to be flashbacks or what it was, you know, what I was going to feel. But
00:52:18
interestingly, I do think that I've probably become a bit more cautious/g gunshy when I'm on my mountain bike or
00:52:24
doing those other kind of things where which you can also knock your head or do you know the head injury type thing. I
00:52:29
feel like that's probably where I'm more >> just want to look after myself because
00:52:33
you know when I was recovering and talking to the specialists they said you know your head's probably your archilles
00:52:39
heal now. Like you know it's probably the thing that you have to be the most
00:52:42
wary of with the fact that you've had two decent concussions. >> Yeah. Yeah, cuz you get more prone
00:52:47
>> the more you have. >> So So when you first watch the the the playback of that, are you in hospital?
00:52:52
You were still in hospital when you watched the the playback of the crash or are you
00:52:55
>> I think I' I think I'd got back to the the circuit by then. Um >> Yeah. So no, I hadn't I hadn't seen the
00:53:01
crash until I >> What's it I watched that for the first time a couple of days ago and I didn't
00:53:05
even know you at the time and I I felt I felt worried and concerned for you even
00:53:08
though I knew the outcome. What's it like when you when you're watching it
00:53:11
and and you know that it's it's you in the video? Like do you do you burst into
00:53:16
tears watching it? >> It's a real disconnect actually. Is it? >> Yeah. Because I guess I was blacked out
00:53:22
so I don't remember it. Um >> uh Yeah. I don't know. It's it's when when
00:53:30
I watch because there's in car footage of my first concussion where you see me
00:53:34
get knocked out and then become loose like I I'm you know unconscious. That that probably is more affecting. So, I
00:53:39
think if that's why I sort of made a conscious decision to not watch the in-car footage of it, because it's
00:53:43
probably a different feeling when you actually see yourself getting hurt, you know, versus for me, it's just the car.
00:53:48
It doesn't Yeah. It it feels more um removed. And when you crash a car like that, like is is the even though it's
00:53:56
not your fault, is the team annoyed with you or are you like sorry or >> Well, that instance they weren't worried
00:54:02
about me because I was being um well sorry as in they they definitely weren't
00:54:06
I I it creates a lot more work for the team, but um never once with McLaren did they ever um they're always very I mean
00:54:15
because they're wanting you to go out and race and be as fast as possible. So
00:54:18
it's it's on the cards, you know. >> Yeah, it's a risk, isn't it?
00:54:20
>> It's a risk. It's just part of the sport. So, um >> yeah. No, it never it was never a thing.
00:54:25
Um which which I guess is the is a sign of a professional team. You know, they they they're backing you to do the job
00:54:30
and do it properly. So, >> they know that it's not you're not intending to go out and crash.
00:54:35
>> Yeah. Well, I suppose as a driver, you need to have confidence that you can go
00:54:38
in there and give it a 100 every single time. Correct. >> Without fear of worst case scenario.
00:54:42
>> So, so 2007 that was in fun. Yes. Um yeah, I've got um >> Yeah,
00:54:50
>> that's so you went over a bank and the I believe the seat broke free in the car.
00:54:55
>> Yeah. Well, that was how I ended up getting injured. Um so yeah, it was a a
00:54:59
pace note error. Um I had was overconfident in where I thought the line was going to be over this crest and
00:55:06
and it was just youthful h you know that was early in my career really. I'd only
00:55:10
been racing probably five or so years then. So an experience and um just yeah just got caught out. I um and I remember
00:55:19
it. I remember coming over this crest and guessing we're probably about fourth
00:55:23
year. was fast section of road and I was expecting to see the road you know out here and as we come over the crest you
00:55:31
know the road sort of in front of me off to the right and as we come over the crest I'm like road is there [laughter]
00:55:36
like this isn't good this is not good and because of the nature of the road it
00:55:41
was it's like up on this it's a d it is a you have sections of road that are
00:55:45
more dangerous than other sections you know where you can't have a moment because there's just no edge to the road
00:55:49
and that's this was such an instance and so the camber wasn't good. There was no
00:55:53
edge to the road and basically it was just down into a gully. And and I think the thing that I I still remember was
00:55:59
was just how quickly it happened. You know, like up to that point I I may have had moments in a rally car where you got
00:56:05
wide or you know, things got a bit messy, but this it was like bang, we're just in it. Like there was no time for
00:56:10
me to be scared, but no time for me to be out what's about to happen. It was
00:56:14
just like [ __ ] we're in it, you know, and um I just shut my eyes in that time.
00:56:17
I didn't want to see what was coming. But um >> So you didn't black out for that one?
00:56:21
>> Yeah, I did. >> Oh, you did? Yeah. So the um the car end for endended down into the skully and in
00:56:28
one of the uh first impacts the seat um because the impact was so large it it broken the in its seat mounts and which
00:56:36
then meant the seat moved and I smashed my helmet on the roll bar the roll cage safety protection of the car which is
00:56:43
beside my behind my seat and that's what knocked me out and then I'm sort of just
00:56:46
loose but thankfully nothing else got injured. It was just the the head injury. So um that it's an upsetting
00:56:53
watch that one because Glenn who I mentioned earlier he'd become my partner. So we were together um for
00:56:58
quite some time and he was co-driving me with me in this accident and um in the incar footage you can hear the panic in
00:57:05
his voice as he's calling calling my name and that that's upsetting you know
00:57:09
hearing that. So um it was um yeah it was and again that was you know I I tried racing again 3 weeks later and
00:57:19
that was that was a big head injury. So [laughter] >> why why did you why did you rush back to
00:57:23
it? >> Because I was a horse rider. You get back on the horse you know [laughter]
00:57:28
>> that is the saying >> get back on the horse. Um and uh and it was amazing. I had so much amazing local
00:57:36
support. um guy went around all the local businesses in Deneden, they raised like over $40,000 towards rebuilding me.
00:57:43
I needed a new car cuz the car was absolutely totaled. And um so I guess it was just that whole, you know, and I'd
00:57:48
had a really good result at the start, the first event of that championship. So, everyone was wanting to get my
00:57:52
championship back on track with me not appreciating how bad my head injury was. >> I felt like you were almost getting a
00:58:00
little bit emotional then just reflecting on it. Yeah, it was it was um I guess it's part of comp
00:58:07
compartmentalizing, isn't it? Like Yes. And you don't you don't want to think
00:58:11
about the the the stress that you put your parents through all the people that for you, you know, like I know how upset
00:58:17
my sister gets, you know, when like I got injured in in Italy and stuff, the most recent one. And
00:58:23
if you start thinking about that, there's probably other rabbit holes you'd go down about, you know, putting
00:58:29
your putting your And that was all the things that I was thinking about in that time out of the sport. It's like I'm
00:58:33
putting all my family and parents through all this stress as well when I go out and do a risky sport. Um, so
00:58:40
yeah, all those things weigh on your mind when you're deciding what you're
00:58:42
doing. >> Yeah. Is it worse for them than what it is for you? [sighs] >> I don't know. I don't know. Probably.
00:58:50
probably because for me it's my choice, isn't it? As in they they you know and
00:58:55
and I guess I'm I'm so grateful for my parents that they never put their fears
00:59:00
or concerns onto us, you know, so that we were worried so that we felt their fear or their concern if that makes
00:59:06
sense. They always gave us that kind of confidence. Like I think back to when we
00:59:11
were riding our ponies around the neighborhood, you know, like there was no cell phones back then, you know, we'd
00:59:15
have been out all day, you know, on these horses, you know, doing all sorts of crazy things. And like now
00:59:21
understanding how a parent frets about their children, like just thinking they must have always been worried about us,
00:59:26
you know, that we're okay, that but they never ever put it onto us. And I think
00:59:29
that's a really empowering thing as a >> as a parent to do to their kids because
00:59:33
it kind of gives kids confidence to, you know, give things a go and and and try things. Have have you had a conversation
00:59:39
with your parents like about about the McLaren crash or >> uh they I mean obviously they were very
00:59:44
very worried um about me. Um >> but again they'veve they I've always
00:59:49
been I think you know I I had a a school friend pass away that same year um from
00:59:55
cancer and you know [sighs] I like anything anything can happen you know. >> Yeah. Absolutely. you know, and you can
01:00:04
get sick tomorrow, you know, and and I think it's so much about um you've got
01:00:10
to live your life, you know, and >> calculated risks. >> It's calculated risks. Absolutely. And
01:00:14
and you know, driving on the road every day, like every day I drive down the road and I'm looking at that white white
01:00:19
line and I'm looking at cars coming towards me and making sure someone's not
01:00:22
texting. Like it's just something like I feel more fear or more vulnerability
01:00:28
driving on the on the public roads, you know, 100 km an hour with, you know, it's it's so much trust that we do.
01:00:35
Yeah. We do it every day and we just accept it as a as a risk of living. >> But, you know, it's I've I'm very very
01:00:43
good at what I do. I've done it for a long time and you know, things still happen. Absolutely. But if you if you're
01:00:48
doing what you love and it's and it's what you still get a kick out of, then
01:00:51
yeah. It's worth it. >> It's funny you say that about driving on on the road. I've had a bit to do with
01:00:56
Murf this year, Greg Murphy. We helped him make his podcast. Um, and he's a a
01:01:00
ferocious ambassador for road safety. And I suppose because he's aware just how how dangerous vehicles are.
01:01:07
>> Yeah. Is this going to be life post racing for you, do you think? Like an
01:01:11
ambassador for >> I absolutely I'm very passionate like like Murf about um about road safety
01:01:16
because I think, you know, as as uh it's sort of one of the I wouldn't say it's a
01:01:22
positive, but we've experienced a road crash in a safe way relatively, you know, having rolled cages and helmets
01:01:28
and all that kind of stuff. And and the forces that go through you, it's like
01:01:32
you just don't even want to contemplate doing that in a road car. You know, it's
01:01:35
just it's frightening to to think um about it. And that, you know, if someone
01:01:39
said to me on the start line of the stage, it's like, okay, you're going to
01:01:43
start the stage, but if you keep to the left, um someone's going to start at the
01:01:46
other end coming towards you and they'll keep to the left. You guys will be fine.
01:01:49
You'd be going, no way. you're not going to do it yet. You know, we do that every
01:01:53
day, you know, just trusting who we share the road with that they're awake, alert,
01:01:58
>> you know, um not falling asleep or texting or something. So, >> yeah.
01:02:01
>> Yeah. Cuz while I was um [ __ ] scared yesterday in the car with you, I also
01:02:05
felt felt very safe. Like I had a very tight >> um seat belt on. Um it was Yeah. A very
01:02:12
tight seat. I had a helmet on. >> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a very different
01:02:18
feeling to being to being in a car on the road. Yes. Yeah. Very, very different. And and I think and you're
01:02:23
very aware of the speed we were going, you know, versus in our road cars, we're
01:02:26
so removed from the speed we're traveling cuz they're so comfortable now
01:02:29
and they're so quiet and we can do everything, can't we? Like we can talk
01:02:33
to people or eat, drink, do everything, yet you're traveling at 100 km an hour.
01:02:36
Like that's freaking fast, you know? You don't want to stop in a hurry. [laughter]
01:02:41
>> Yeah. No, it's terrifying out there. Um Yes. So 2016, that's when you became the
01:02:46
first woman to win a round of the New Zealand Rally Championships. Um, how did that moment feel when you crossed the
01:02:52
line? >> It was relief. My god, it was relief. >> Such relief. >> Why?
01:02:56
>> Because I'd wanted to win a championship round for like since I'd started, you
01:03:00
know, and for me that was still a long time into my career, you know, like let's say I start I think it was 2002 I
01:03:06
started. So, you know, it's it's, you know, 14 years to to getting a win. And,
01:03:12
you know, I'd finished runner up in the New Zealand Championship for so many
01:03:15
years. And and I guess I was, you know, I was mindful of of being a of just wanting to take it
01:03:22
off, you know, cuz I just so wanted it. Yeah. To finally have it, you know, so the monkey off my back cuz, you know,
01:03:27
it's it's always talked about, you know, well, she hasn't won an an event yet,
01:03:30
you know, sort of thing. So, >> did it feel like you had a point to prove?
01:03:33
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Because I knew I knew I could do it and it just, you know, I'd
01:03:37
had a lot of mechanical issues and all the other frustrations as well. And I mean we did it in the car that we had
01:03:42
built which was really rewarding as well but I mean it it car um you know it was
01:03:46
it it was a frustrating journey to get to that point but you know I I guess I'd
01:03:51
overcome >> you know breaking up with with Glenn who had been a really important part of my
01:03:56
early um racing career to then you know to do it on my own. Um yeah it was it was a a big achievement.
01:04:03
>> Breaking up with Glenn as like a a partner or as a co-driver? >> Both. Oh right.
01:04:08
>> So yeah. >> Yeah. is it um yeah I'm I'm more interested in in that sort of dynamic or
01:04:12
that relationship like when you split with a with a co like how imperative is the the co-driver in that dynamic.
01:04:17
>> Yeah they're they're so important like as in you wouldn't you can't drive fast
01:04:21
without a good co-driver um and you have to have trust and all of those amazing things. So, it's a um you know, you have
01:04:29
many co-drivers who and driver pairings that they've been together forever like
01:04:33
they are like an old married couple like um uh Ben and Tony who just won their you know fourth New Zealand rally
01:04:39
championship like they've been their whole career is together you know that that's all they've ever known is each
01:04:43
other and so that trust and uh knowing how each other works it just it's it's
01:04:48
it's worth so much. Um >> and there's no substitute for time e and
01:04:52
building that sort of trust. Yeah. And that experience. So um but for the likes of myself like I've um I've had
01:04:59
different co-drivers and it depends on the on the circumstances but um you know generally you know like Ben who I've
01:05:07
been working with and um you know we've worked off and on at different times it
01:05:10
just sort of depends when someone's available and not available and that kind of thing. But if you can have that
01:05:14
consistency it's definitely a big advantage. >> Yeah. And uh 2015 that's when you won
01:05:19
the FIA Women in Motorsport Award. What does that stand for? It was a um event they put on in Qatar where they
01:05:26
basically they had put on an event where they picked 10 nine nine uh top female drivers from around the world and nine
01:05:34
top female co-drivers from around the world and we got to learn about crosscountry rallying which um sounds
01:05:41
simple but actually we we turned up in these sandunes and I was very naive in terms of how hard it is to drive in
01:05:47
sandunes. Um but we got got to learn about that and got sort of training and and lessons but it was a competition and
01:05:54
at the end of that week someone got selected to then go and do a rally in Qatar the following year and that was
01:06:00
the I I won it at the end of the week but it was kind of funny because I had done the the last stage of the event and
01:06:07
you kept getting paired with a different co-driver each time for each of these different trials and the last girl I got
01:06:13
paired with she we kept getting lost and like and like we got so lost that like we were off the screen of where they
01:06:18
were tracking us kind of thing like we were so so far out and you know it's 30
01:06:22
plus degrees temperature outside the car you're in all the gear like we were
01:06:26
discussing earlier so it's so hot so so hot >> and then um so we're stuck we're lost
01:06:32
and then we get buried in like when I say buried like the belly deep up sand up to the gunnels of this big Nissen
01:06:38
safari you know rally vehicle and these guys appear out of nowhere they help us start digging this car out and you're
01:06:46
like your your race suit is wet with sweat. You're rolling around in the sand. So, you feel like you're like been
01:06:51
basting yourself, you know, like um to go get cooked um [laughter] coated, crumbed, and um and we
01:06:59
eventually get unstuck and I follow um the someone came out to rescue us. I follow them back out like mother duck
01:07:05
with her duckling, you know, following them along and stuff. And it it was really fun actually because I got to
01:07:09
follow them and got some experience of driving and that. And I got back and I thought, man, that was so freaking hard.
01:07:15
You know what? if I don't win this, that's fine. If I never ever go do this
01:07:19
again, that's okay because it was just so hard. It's been a cool experience,
01:07:22
but you know, that's okay. It was it's fine. And so anyway, that night they had
01:07:26
the prize giving and I get announced as winning it. I'm like, man, I'm going
01:07:30
back out into the [laughter] desert again. But um yeah, that was it was really it
01:07:37
was such a cool experience cuz I mean we never learned to drive in sandjunes in New Zealand. Like when are you going to
01:07:41
go drive a sandune? It was it was unreal. So cool. But um such a different you know driving skill and and challenge
01:07:48
and but the stages like you were in the car for like three hours you know which is freaking long time to be focusing and
01:07:54
concentrating and stuff. So very cool. >> My god you've done some cool [ __ ] Eh
01:07:59
>> very cool [ __ ] Very cool [ __ ] >> What what have [laughter] been the most
01:08:02
memorable like holy [ __ ] moments you reckon? >> Uh I got to go and do uh rally cross in
01:08:07
America in 2014. >> Was that when you an X Games thing in Vegas? >> Yeah. Yeah. got to go to the X game but
01:08:13
got a finalist finalist semi-finalist in X Games. So yeah, getting to go to the X
01:08:17
Games. That's cool. And then like the rally cross itself was just insane. Like
01:08:21
as in it felt like you were doing a video game like you're in the air in these massive jumps and you got all
01:08:26
these rally cars around you and it was just Yeah, it was it was a super cool experience as well. And those things
01:08:32
serious horsepower like 600, you know, horsepower. So when the you know you're
01:08:36
on the start line and um you know cuz as a rally driver you're on the start line
01:08:40
on your own. You have the start line to yourself. So go to rally cross and you're sharing the track with all these
01:08:44
other cars and get into start line and get into the um pre uh stage start kind of thing and so you put the car into its
01:08:52
launch mode and so the the car just comes alive and like you hear the pop bang bang bang bang you know it's it's
01:08:57
very cool feeling but you can hear all the other cars doing their pop bang bang bang bang and it's just yeah it's it was
01:09:02
yeah cool very very cool >> looking back on everything you've achieved um what does success mean to
01:09:07
you now has it changed over the years >> it it actually changed quite early in my
01:09:12
career um when I very first started and I guess it's a a naivity thing where you
01:09:17
think your path to success is going to be just this nice straight line and this is where you're going this is what
01:09:22
you're going to achieve and you know when I set out I wanted to get to the world rally championship I wanted to you
01:09:28
know compete on the world stage and that was what I wanted to do um and then you
01:09:33
start to realize that that's not always the easiest thing to achieve. there's a
01:09:35
lot of things that come uh that you know affect that that goal line but um and I
01:09:42
started to recognize and I was like well what what is success you know am I going
01:09:46
to have achieved if I don't get to the world championship you know what what
01:09:49
you know what what's success and I started to see it a bit more like the journey in terms of um I get to go to
01:09:57
these cool places I get to even here in New Zealand when we're rallying you know
01:10:01
we're out in these beautiful parts back parts of New Zealand seeing parts of the
01:10:04
country you'd never normally get to see um doing a sport that I absolutely love.
01:10:09
You know, get to meet the coolest people um in all these different places. And so
01:10:13
I started to see it more as just how lucky I am to be doing what I'm doing. And
01:10:19
>> and I think that mindset really really helped when it was tough, you know, when
01:10:23
I was having all the DNFS and the cars breaking down and, you know, not getting the results because I wasn't focused on
01:10:30
the results. I was more focused on the how lucky am I to to be doing this, you know, and um and yeah, and I so I guess
01:10:39
that's that that's why I do it because I I love what I do. Like I love the
01:10:44
driving the car. That's that's the the thing I get the kick out of. Um but but
01:10:50
it's the Yeah, it's the people. It's the journey. It's like coming in here,
01:10:54
getting to chat to you, you know, like there's so many cool things I've got to
01:10:57
do simply by doing by having a passion and and following that dream. >> What boxes are there still to tick? Is
01:11:04
there anything? >> Oh, it depends. I mean, it it will always it will always great me if I
01:11:10
don't win, you know, like the New Zealand Championship and, you know, there's many things that, you know, I
01:11:15
would love to have done. Um, but there's so many cool things that I've got to have done that would never
01:11:21
have been on a checklist like the McLaren thing. Yeah. [laughter] You just couldn't even dream this.
01:11:27
>> You couldn't even dream it. So, I guess, you know, and that's the thing about
01:11:31
life, isn't it? Like, you never know what what's coming next or whatever. So
01:11:35
um yeah I no I don't think there is the boxes to tick as such you know and I
01:11:41
guess as you get older maybe you're a bit more um you know like when early in my career
01:11:47
I thought the the Perry Daka like I'd love to have done the DAR rally and now
01:11:52
you know to go and do that event a the cost you know like it's just so so expensive to go and do um like we're
01:11:59
talking probably half a million dollars to go and do one event and that's not
01:12:03
even in a nice comfortable car this will be in [laughter] a little bouncy thing where you're jiggling around the desert
01:12:08
for hours on end and um you know and you're because it's such a popular event
01:12:12
now you're in the dust and and I just I kind of think no that's not necessarily
01:12:17
what I want to do now you know like I and it part of it I find that a little bit sad that I don't have the that
01:12:24
through my experience I don't have that um I don't know if it's naivity or
01:12:27
whatever but I'm I'm just a bit more sensible with what I want to do >> the the [laughter] drive or the hunger
01:12:32
or maybe your priorities change or possibly priorities. >> When when will you retire? Have you have
01:12:37
you thought about that? >> Oh, absolutely. >> There's no reason you could you could
01:12:40
keep going as long as what you wanted, right? >> I think and I think that was the
01:12:43
question when I had the crash. I was like, well, is this the time that you retire? Because, you know, you know, and
01:12:48
and I guess there's that it's just sort of that age expectation, you know. I
01:12:52
suppose people are thinking, well, why why do you keep doing it, you know, and and and I question it, you know, I'm
01:12:56
like, why do why what's my why, you know, why why am I still doing it? Uh, and I think, you know, the the last
01:13:04
year, for example, I guess the the scales have swung heavily in me having to focus on work rather than on my
01:13:09
racing. And, um, but when I get to go and do my racing, it it's just such a release for me. You know, it's still
01:13:15
what I love. You know, it's the bit that makes me feel alive and and I still
01:13:19
really get a a kick out of it. So, I think as long as I'm getting that kick out of it and I and I enjoy it and um
01:13:26
and it's fun and I'm I'm healthy and can do all it, I I think I'll just I'll keep
01:13:30
doing it. You know, I don't know what it will look like. I don't know what events
01:13:33
I'll be doing, but I think as long as I can do it and I'm still enjoying it and
01:13:38
then I'll keep doing it. >> Yes, we we've touched upon this a couple
01:13:41
of times, but not in any sort of great depth, but um bubbling along alongside this incredible railing career is your
01:13:47
your business, your Suzuki dealership. Um, Gilmore Motors. >> Um, >> so is it all the sponsors that you've
01:13:54
got on your shirt that sort of pay for the rallying and then the Gilmore Motors that pay for your like living expenses
01:14:00
and your your I suppose your civilian life [laughter] being an adult? Yeah. Is that sort of how it works? How do how do
01:14:07
you run a business and do all this other stuff? >> Uh, yeah. It it's been a juggle at
01:14:11
times. Uh, it's having good people, really good people around me. Um, and uh, you know, when I got the opportunity
01:14:18
to um, to race in America, I'd just broken up with Glenn. So, we were just working out how I was going to buy him
01:14:24
out of the business, buy him out of the rally company, you know, by, you know, doing the split and and that was
01:14:30
probably one of the toughest times where I thought, man, this is just too hard. I
01:14:33
don't know if I can do this all on my own. I was a lot younger then and you I'd never done it all on my own, you
01:14:38
know, to be facing that. Um and you know I got some really good people around me.
01:14:45
Um you know and when I say good people like good people in the business so that you know I I knew the business was in
01:14:50
good hands when I kept doing the eight trips to America very quickly each each um each time and and I've been very
01:14:57
fortunate like Suzuki is an amazing company as well. So the relationship with them started from rallying. Um I
01:15:04
approached them as a very young uh I was in my early 20ies said do you want you want to go do a rally with me kind of
01:15:10
thing and they were like um and they would have never have heard of me like it was really early and they were like
01:15:15
oh yeah and they they listened to my proposal and thought it was a pretty good one. So they they let us build a a
01:15:21
rally um Suzuki Ignis and we went away and did the target rally and we had a really good result and stuff and um and
01:15:28
so from that point on I had a relationship with Suzuki and then we ended up being able to get the Suzuki
01:15:33
franchise in Deneden and you know I I look back on it and I think again I've
01:15:39
been very fortunate people have believed in me you know giving a young woman an opportunity to to take on a franchise
01:15:45
where didn't have any experience of running a car dealership at that time and um and giving me that shot. I think
01:15:50
that was that was very empowering on their side, you know, and so they've been a very good company to be alongside
01:15:57
um my learning journey of being a business owner >> and you know, I was really proud of
01:16:01
myself when I got to, you know, 3 years after the split and you know, I'd finished paying him out and the business
01:16:08
was all mine and stuff and yet I was still doing the racing as well. So yeah, it hasn't been easy. [laughter]
01:16:15
>> Yeah, it's a it's a lot, eh? Yeah, >> it really is a lot. Um, yeah. Do you
01:16:20
look look back on everything you've done with like a a huge amount of pride?
01:16:23
>> I do. Yeah. Yeah. I think um I think I'm proud of my younger self. I'm proud of
01:16:30
the times I've stuck in there when there's times where I've like not wanted
01:16:33
to, you know. I think um and and yeah, I am proud. I mean, there's things I would
01:16:39
have done differently. There's things that I think, you know, I could have handled better and all of those, you
01:16:42
know, different scenarios, but you do >> personal, professional, both. >> Both. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but I guess
01:16:48
that's that's reflection, isn't it? And you hope to learn from your from your
01:16:53
life as you go. >> Yeah. Failure is a stepping stone to success, as they say.
01:16:57
>> Yeah. Exactly. So, um, yeah, but I think in in some ways the business side of it,
01:17:04
um, yeah, I think I'm proud of of of that and and that, um, you know, like all all
01:17:12
small business owners know, like it's not easy. It's really not easy and and
01:17:16
it can be quite lonely at times when you're running a business. So, um, yeah,
01:17:19
to to have been able to stick at it and and to and to have a good business is is
01:17:23
Yeah, I'm proud of it. >> Yeah. Um, you don't have any kids, eh? >> No. No. Was it was that a that a choice
01:17:29
or you just too busy >> too busy running a business and being this bad? >> A little bit like that. It's it's
01:17:35
something that was never really um you know like when when I was a little girl I was dreaming of the Olympics not of
01:17:42
you know babies and you know what I mean like it was I was playing with the Barbie dolls and her horse you know it
01:17:46
was like that was where [laughter] it was a focus. I blame my parents actually. I think back to a Christmas um
01:17:53
Christmas gift I got and it was Barbie and it was Barbie 9 to5 and on one side was [laughter] her flat and the other
01:18:00
side was her office and I was like gosh you know and her outfit changed side to side so um yeah but no I've always been
01:18:06
driven towards doing things I guess and so um and I guess I never really had either a partner either where it sort of
01:18:12
became a conversation and so and then you get to an age where you're like oh
01:18:15
gosh I better probably decide make a conscious decision if it's something I want to make happen or or not, but um
01:18:22
yeah, it's just yeah, >> just hasn't worked out that way. >> It just hasn't worked out that way.
01:18:26
>> Do do you at this stage of life do you have any regrets about that [clears throat] or not particularly?
01:18:31
>> Not at the moment. No. No. No. It makes me sad like that. I think um you know,
01:18:35
discussing this with a friend just yesterday. You know, I think it's always I I think anyone who who doesn't I'm
01:18:42
sure it's the conversation you all have in your own head. You know, when am I
01:18:44
going to regret it? Am I going to regret it? you know, I feel sad that I'm not
01:18:47
giving my um you know, my parents some amazing grandkids, you know, those kind of things, the guilt and stuff, but
01:18:54
>> I mean, it's the most amazing and I and I see my friends being amazing parents,
01:18:58
you know, and I and I just think that's so cool. But >> it's it's a big commitment, you know,
01:19:02
and you have to be 100% into it if that's what you want to do. And um for me, it it definitely wasn't something I
01:19:07
wanted to do on my own. And and it was never a conversation, I guess, with with any partners or anything that came up.
01:19:14
And I dare say like that McLaren crash that we talked about like if if you're a
01:19:18
mom that would be the end of it, right? You'd be there's no way you'd you put
01:19:22
yourself. >> It's a different different thing, isn't it? Yeah. You've got other people
01:19:25
dependent on you. >> Yeah. Um what's something that people might be surprised to learn about you away from
01:19:32
racing? >> Uh I don't know. [clears throat] Um >> it's quite because there's there's a lot
01:19:38
about you online, but not not a lot about um you know, Emma Gilmore. the the that's not the rally driver or the
01:19:44
businesswoman. >> Yeah, I like I I love my friends and I've got an amazing circle of friends
01:19:49
and they they're hugely supportive and stuff. So, I guess I kind of like um you
01:19:55
know, my friends are really important to me and um and yeah, I I think um yeah, what what would something I don't
01:20:05
know? >> I don't know. I'm good at baking. [laughter] Hey, when do you have time to bake?
01:20:12
>> I love baking. I like art. You know, there's lots of things I really enjoy
01:20:16
doing, but it's also hard when you're running a business and doing all the
01:20:18
other things. It's finding the time to do the the extra things, isn't it?
01:20:22
>> Yeah. >> Um, was there ever a moment where you thought about walking away?
01:20:25
>> Oh, yeah. [laughter] >> Really? Oh, like like weekly, monthly? >> No. Oh, there's probably there's
01:20:31
probably been uh a few times like that. that the time when I was breaking up with Glenn was probably a a real life
01:20:39
moment. It's like, can I actually do this on my own? Um, and then um in 19 I
01:20:45
had two engines blow up before the very first event of the season. And you know,
01:20:50
you've already sent out the press releases saying, "This season's going to
01:20:53
be amazing. We're going to have a great result." And then you're like, "Oh, this
01:20:57
is just terrible." you know, and then had um relationship end and just I just
01:21:04
went into a really bad space and I was just like, what on earth? And I I ended up I had my friends say to me, I said,
01:21:10
oh, maybe maybe therapy might be a good thing. I'm like, therapy, what am I going to talk about? Well, feels like I
01:21:17
had a lot to talk about. [laughter] >> Really? Yeah, cuz you you seem quite um
01:21:22
you built up some quite tough stuff. Was that um was that a big step for you to talk to a therapist? Well, I didn't
01:21:28
realize it was going to be such a big step. [laughter] >> You sort of go in and you start talking
01:21:33
and they rip off that layer and then you find another layer to rip off and Yeah,
01:21:38
it was >> like a bit of cotton in a t-shirt. E just [laughter] >> um it was amazing. It was amazing going
01:21:45
So, I mean, what age was I then? I was 39. Um [clears throat] and just all those things that you've just all those,
01:21:50
you know, narratives in your head that you've been playing forever, that's
01:21:53
normal. And in not till someone says to you, well maybe you know and they sort of just make you question things and
01:21:59
>> you know it was it was the best thing I ever did. Absolutely amazing. And I I
01:22:03
can't recommend therapy enough if if you're in a position to be able to you
01:22:06
know to be able to do that. It's um it's just it's life-changing. >> Yeah. How many sessions did you go?
01:22:11
>> A lot. [laughter] >> Is it on ongoing or you just not got >> um just go when you need to? The time it
01:22:18
was intense like as in and the thing that it was always surprising with it was that the you'd be chatting it would
01:22:24
be like and the hour would go just like that and you'd be like wow where did the
01:22:27
time go and then as I start to got started to get better you know and things were getting stronger you know
01:22:33
the time would slow down and you know you sort of run out of things to talk about about you know 30 minutes in and
01:22:37
you know and then eventually I was getting oh maybe we can do it every two weeks or every four weeks or you know
01:22:42
and then I like I still she still supports me if I have you know things happen But I definitely, you know, it
01:22:48
might be once a year or once every two years. It's not it's, you know, but but
01:22:52
amazing. Amazing. Just >> just Yeah, cuz Yeah, you have your own narrative, don't you? You don't know
01:22:58
what's normal, what's not normal until you help. >> A lot of them are just stories that
01:23:02
you're telling yourself as well that are not based on on anything at all. Yeah. I
01:23:06
um I was I was really reluctant to go cuz I was like, where do you start? >> Um but then you you sit down, you
01:23:12
realize that they're the professional and they sort of guide the conversation
01:23:15
and it's it's great. You get to talk about yourself for an hour. Like a personal trainer for for the brain.
01:23:19
>> Absolutely. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Have you Yeah. Where's your
01:23:24
resilience from? Are you sort of do you think it's you're born with it or have
01:23:26
you built it? >> Ah, good [clears throat] question. Um I think I think you do build it
01:23:34
definitely. I do feel it's something that um uh [sighs] yeah I like I think I think we're
01:23:41
probably from a family of quite tough stuff where you just you just get on with stuff type thing. Um
01:23:47
>> and I guess it's just that I don't know I just I've always had that thing like
01:23:51
no no one's going to fix something. It's me for me to fix you know like you know
01:23:54
no one's going to come and rescue me. It's got to be me to just sort out
01:23:58
whatever predicament you're in. And that's why I'm always um very uh I see
01:24:03
my friendships and um you know the people that are in my circle is so important to that support. You know like
01:24:10
when you need advice or you need help that you can call on those people to to um to to help you. You know, I think
01:24:16
about when I took on the dealership on my own >> buying out my exartner, you know, like
01:24:20
an amazing friend >> with his own car dealerships and, you know, and he believed in me and he would
01:24:25
give me those, you know, pick me up when, you know, you're in tears thinking, "What on earth am [laughter] I
01:24:29
doing? I'm so out of my depth, you know." So, those people are just so important um so important to to helping
01:24:36
you be strong, I guess, or help Yeah. picking you up in those moments when you're not strong.
01:24:41
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. There is that saying people say, blood, sweat, and tears, whether it's
01:24:44
business or sport. And uh I mean there's been sweat definitely. There's been
01:24:48
blood [laughter] definitely. Yeah. Many tears. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Um
01:24:53
>> yeah, tears of frustration. I think a lot of the time I think you just get
01:24:58
frustrated with um >> I'm thinking business. I'm thinking sport. Yeah. Just I mean it's just it's
01:25:04
just hard, you know. Sometimes it's just hard. And I think >> you know that's that's the lovely thing
01:25:08
when you listen to I mean you're great with your all the guests you interview.
01:25:11
You know it's everyone's has their own story, don't they? you know, >> everyone's dealing with [ __ ]
01:25:16
>> Yeah. [laughter] Everyone >> even people that don't look like it.
01:25:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's why sort of you just need that sort of bit
01:25:21
of kindness or compassion to people cuz everyone's dealing with it. >> Yeah. And and I I love what you said
01:25:26
before about no one's no one's doing it for like no one's going to do anything
01:25:29
for you. Anything that you want to happen, you have to do it yourself. >> Yeah.
01:25:33
>> No one's coming for you. >> No. >> What do you think your best and worst
01:25:36
habits are? [laughter] >> Well, maybe I should be asking asking some of your staff or team. Um,
01:25:44
I think my best habits is that uh I have I have high standards, >> but that could also be a worst habit.
01:25:50
[laughter] >> It's quite funny because I had Sir Steve Henson on the podcast and he he's got a
01:25:54
theory and it's something I've thought about a lot since I had him on. He said
01:25:57
generally someone's best habit is also their worst. The example he gave is is
01:26:00
Richie McCoy just being ruthlessly competitive. It's his best habit, but also his worst habit in that he was
01:26:05
trying to control the whole team and not letting everyone else do their jobs. >> Yeah.
01:26:09
>> Yeah. >> So, you're high standards. >> Yeah. But I don't think they are.
01:26:13
[laughter] >> So they're probably the >> W. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, what about fears? What are you most
01:26:19
afraid of? [laughter] >> Um, uh, gosh, I think I mean, you can go with the the
01:26:30
standard ones like heights and those kind of things, but um, >> I don't think I have any I mean just
01:26:38
illness probably. Yeah. >> Yeah. I really I really value having a healthy body,
01:26:42
>> being able to do what I want to do as I want to do it, you know, and I think
01:26:45
that's probably my biggest fear is that being taken away from me. >> Yeah.
01:26:49
>> Regrets, [sighs] >> none that come to mind, >> you know. That's great.
01:26:56
>> Yeah. I think like I said earlier, there's always things I would have done
01:27:00
differently, you know, like you know, especially especially like in business or or with the sport, you know, like um
01:27:08
handling people or you know, relationships and you you think back, [ __ ] I could have handled that
01:27:12
differently. I could have, you know, how you do things, but you try and you know,
01:27:16
you there's there's no playbook, is there? You're just doing it as best you
01:27:19
can at the time. >> Are are you good with um like conflict and difficult situations?
01:27:24
>> I >> running a running a business. Yeah. And a and a team. Yeah, you need to have
01:27:27
these often, I guess. >> Um, I don't like it, but I'm not scared to make a tough decision. Yeah, I
01:27:33
because I'd rather make a tough decision now and deal with it then I I hate things playing in the background. Like,
01:27:39
I hate that >> lowline level of anxiety that I need to deal with that. Like, that's
01:27:44
>> it's simmering away. >> Yeah, it's [laughter] away. Like, let's
01:27:46
just deal with it now. >> It's not going to go away. Yeah. Um, what about future goals? Where where do
01:27:51
you see what are you now? 46. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Where do you see yourself at 50,
01:27:55
55, 60? Um, just >> are you much of a planner? You >> No, >> no,
01:28:01
>> no. Which can probably be a frustrating thing at times because I guess I like
01:28:06
the I like being able to if an opportunity comes up to go, "Yeah, let's
01:28:10
go do that." You know, um, I'm starting to write a book, so want to write a
01:28:14
book. I'm getting into my public speaking, which I really enjoy. I think the fact that I haven't got kids, I'm
01:28:20
probably mindful of wanting to have some sort of legacy in terms of I want to help people or inspire people or or do
01:28:26
that kind of thing, I guess. So, I guess that's probably in my next 5 or 10 year
01:28:30
plan of of that. Um, and then just just keep surviving in business, [laughter] >> still be here.
01:28:37
>> Yeah. What's what's been the hardest the was was co difficult for car dealerships
01:28:41
or >> uh we actually had an amazing time after co like a lot of businesses in New
01:28:45
Zealand you know with a >> random like spar pool businesses. >> Yeah. So no we had a really good time
01:28:51
but then >> after that uh had quite a lot of uh interruptions in the in the industry
01:28:56
with the clean car standards and things getting interrupted. So it's been a pretty tough couple of years since since
01:29:01
then. Like it's it's definitely not an easy industry at the moment but again I
01:29:04
think a lot of businesses are in the same same part at the moment. So yeah, so it's um I I feel like things are
01:29:10
starting to to pick up. So hopefully, you know, confidence keeps keeps growing and
01:29:14
>> keeps getting better. >> And the this book you're writing um how
01:29:18
far into it are you? How many like >> starting starting >> starting? [laughter]
01:29:21
But I don't want it to be I'm not it it like I said, it's I want to share
01:29:25
lessons. I I I liken it to, you know, we have the pace notes for our our stages of what's coming up and we don't get
01:29:32
that for life. You know, we're all just sort of winging it as we go. But if I
01:29:35
can share what I've learned and things that might help others, then that would
01:29:38
be a cool thing to do. >> Awesome. I'd buy it. >> Cool. >> I'd read it.
01:29:42
>> Yeah. [laughter] You gonna write it yourself or like get a ghost ride? >> I'll do it with a ghost writer.
01:29:47
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Um, what three words would family or
01:29:51
friends use to describe you? [laughter] >> Uh, I asked my friends that listen to
01:29:54
your podcast. I was like, "Come on, give me some help here." >> Oh, [laughter] what did they say? Oh,
01:29:58
this is interesting. >> Um, Lisa said that um that I'm crazy. [laughter]
01:30:05
She will never ever get in a rally car with me. >> Who Who's Lisa? >> She's uh um she was my right-hand lady
01:30:12
at work when I um first took on the business back in 2014. Um and now she's got a we girl, Dixie, and so she's
01:30:19
part-time with us still. So, yeah. So, um but yeah, she she likes loves your podcast.
01:30:24
>> Oh, fantastic. Crazy. What else? We're just [laughter] talking with one
01:30:28
>> determined. Yeah, determined. Um, and um, they they all said really nice
01:30:34
things, but I'm not going to say them. >> Yeah. [laughter] Oh, why not? Oh, you
01:30:37
you you should. It's quite funny because what she said what she said I thought
01:30:40
was really nice was that even though I'm juggling all of these things, I still
01:30:44
always make time for my friends and that's a really important thing. So, I thought that was really nice that, you
01:30:48
know, because my friends and that are important to me. So, it's not it's not
01:30:51
all about business and success and achieving. I still appreciate the the important things, the things that
01:30:57
matter. Really? >> That's cool. How did that make you feel hearing hearing people's It's like
01:31:02
>> bit emotional. Yeah. Like because it's it's it's nice. I mean because you kind
01:31:06
of try and lift that way but for it to be recognized is is nice. Yeah. >> How this has been fun.
01:31:12
>> Yeah. Thank you. >> How is it for you to reflect on some of the highs and lows of life? Um I think I
01:31:19
probably naturally do it a lot anyway because I always try and live you know I was listening um uh to someone's eulogy
01:31:26
at their funeral and um he was an amazing inspiring man and um you know and his thing was always about living
01:31:33
your best life and I think such powerful words you know if you if you're focusing
01:31:37
on just living your best life every day then you know you do end up living your best life don't you?
01:31:41
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Any closing words? No, just thanks for
01:31:47
thanks. Are you coming back for another ride? [laughter] >> [ __ ] no. >> No. One and done.
01:31:52
>> No, no, it was it was actually really enjoyable. I found it super inspiring.
01:31:55
As I said before, I felt super safe in the vehicle and I know I know I was in experienced hands. What were you what
01:32:01
were you giving it? Say on a scale of 1 to 10. [laughter] >> Um, >> was it like a seven? Six.
01:32:06
>> Yeah, six to seven. I was sad cuz was the stage you were first up, so I was
01:32:09
still learning the road. I didn't really know where the road went. So, you didn't
01:32:11
want to be known that. [laughter] >> Oh, wow. Oh, that was cool. Oh, well, I
01:32:16
really appreciate the opportunity and I'm so pleased we connected today. It's
01:32:19
been a great podcast. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> Thank you, Emma Gilmore.