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Jake Bailey, welcome to my podcast. >> Fantastic to be here, Dom. Thanks for
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having me. E, >> it's great to connect. You like just popped a vocal zone like 8 seconds
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before we started. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, these these are good. I do a lot of um I do a lot of talking and
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you sort of sit these in the side of your mouth and it means you can I don't
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know do a lot of talking. So that's um that that's that's that's what that's
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for. >> Hey, it's great to have you here. You've got a a brand new book out called The
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Comeback Code: The Power of Resilience When the Going Gets Tough. Um long time between drinks.
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>> Yeah, it has been [laughter] >> like 10 years. You think a book? Is this
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your thing now? A book every 10 years? >> Well, I I don't know. I wouldn't get
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through very many if it was, I don't think. I mean, the book has been Yeah, it's definitely been a lot of years in
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the making. Um, and I guess in a sense it sort of had to be. It's kind of the
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product of the last nine years of of learning and study and and and yeah, the opportunity that I've had to I guess
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work with and learn from people all around the globe and from different walks of life about how we get through
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tough times. Um so yeah, it's been a long time in the making and it's really
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really satisfying to sort of have it out there now into the world. >> Yeah, resilience is like a a big um buzz
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word now, isn't it? >> Massive. And in your book you talk about the um
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>> uh the four model S. >> 4S model. Yep. >> The what? the 4S model.
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>> Yeah. Of um constructing resilience. So what's that? >> So the 4S model is basically the way
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that I have come to uh teach and explain around resilience. It's effectively four
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things uh which we know from I guess studies and and research and psychology are just proven to make people better at
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getting through tough times. And so I guess you know resilience the way to view and think about resilience is that
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it is just like any other skill. It's something which you can learn and develop and improve upon through
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practice. Um but particularly if you sort of practice around specific skills that we know know work. So the four S's
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are I guess four of these key pillars of of what go towards creating resilience and making people good at getting
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through tough times sort of framed up and and and packaged in a way which hopefully people can um understand and
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relate to uh which they can retain and then which they can go on to I guess utilize and actually put into practice
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in life because I think often when it comes to learning about these things when it comes to learning about these
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kind of you know really grandiose concepts a lot of the time they're not particularly tangible. the four S's is
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hopefully a way to to to get it across and communicate it to people in a way which they can yeah actually get use out
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of in life. >> So S number one slow down. >> Yes. First S slowing down. Um and I
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guess at its core the idea of of slowing down is basically to take um a problem or a challenge or a piece of adversity
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and to try and break it down into a series of smaller more manageable bite-sized pieces. Um, we find that
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people who have this ability to, I guess, face things on their own terms, whether that's getting through it, you
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know, a month at a time, a week at a time, a day at a time, an hour at a time, they do considerably better at
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getting through those tough times than people who, I guess, take things on as one big lump sum, one big challenge.
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Because I'm sure you would have experienced this many times in life, you know, when something bad happens, when
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when you're going through a really tough time, there is the sense of overwhelm,
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right? It's how am I going to get through this, you know, this day or this this week or or even this next hour. And
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hopefully the answer for you has been, you know, I'm just going to focus on getting through to the next milestone.
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Um, and even, you know, you were talking about running just before off air and that's something which I'm sure you do
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with running as well. It's definitely something which I do with my running is
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that when you go into a race or you go into a long run or a training block or whatever it may be, you just focus on
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getting through to the next aid station or focus on getting through the next kilometer instead of trying to take on
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this big massive thing as as one hole. >> Um, because it's it's a hell of a lot
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harder to get through it. um when you frame it in that way which makes it appear so much bigger and more massive
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and and I guess insurmountable um than than if you take it piece by piece. >> Yeah. Unmanageable. That's the the only
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way to do it. Um it's like that that joke um you know how do you eat an elephant?
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>> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And actually it's sort of I talk in the book there's you know
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about a million different really really bad metaphors that psychologists have put to this and it's Yeah. eating an
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elephant, you know, one bite at a time or, you know, a masterful painting is made up of a million individual small
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strokes sort of thing. Like if you have a look online, there's there's, you
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know, there's a whole bunch of of of of metaphors and and and simileies which
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have been put to this, most of which are really really cheesy. But at its core, you know, we know that people who have
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this ability to just face things on their own terms, they just do better at getting through tough times. I I think
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for most people they can understand and relate to I guess why that would why that would be
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>> you know I love this because um yeah tough times are to be expected like life
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is life's a [ __ ] [ __ ] show >> 100% absolutely and you know in psychology we call that inevitable
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adversity right it's this idea that >> you know tough times and and adversity
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and hardship can't be avoided it's not something which you can sort of outwit
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or outsmart through you know luck or or being a good person or always doing the right thing or it's not something which
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you can avoid. You know, tough times are just an inevitable, unavoidable part of
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of life. And suffering and and things being pretty [ __ ] sometimes is just how it goes. That's not a bad thing. Um but
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if we can equip ourselves with the skills and tools to to get through it more effectively and overcome it more
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efficiently, we basically set ourselves up to have a more enjoyable, more successful, better life as a result of
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that. >> Yeah. And is number two, salvage. >> Yeah. Salvaging. Um salvaging is
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basically your ability to look for silver linings. um your ability to find the good during tough times, your
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ability to find the positive in negatives, your ability to deliberately look for and seek out what could be
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possibly good about a bad situation. And and in psychology, this has got sort of
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a fancier name. We talk about this idea of realistic optimism, which is exactly what it sounds like. It's your ability
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to be, I guess, realistic about a situation, which often is to say, you know, this is actually [ __ ] And in
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spite of that, to deliberately choose to be optimistic anyway, to actually continue to seek for and and look for
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the good. um within that situation. Um and and and again, I don't really like
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to keep sort of bringing it back to the fact that this is all around research and evidence because it's kind of, you
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know, people people throw, you know, studies and research and evidence around all of the time. But I think that it is
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important to note that, you know, we have proof that this works and and proof that people who have this ability to, I
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guess, continue to look for the good during tough times are the people who fear best in life. Um, if you can go
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into a bad situation and you can continue to look for and seek out what about that could be positive or good,
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you tend to come out the other side of it better off. And and it's worth noting, I think, a couple of things.
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One, that's actually a conscious, deliberate decision a lot of the time. Um and and two to to to make that
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decision you have to sort of go into life with the sense that not everything is black and white. Not everything is
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binary. Not all good situations are good through and through. Not all bad situations are bad through and through.
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That there is sort of shades of gray in between where there can be silver linings. Um and you know for me and and
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throughout my story that's kind of been a a really defining defining part of
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that. I think that you know humor is a great example of that. And a lot of people are really good at laughing their
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way through tough times. And really at its core, that's just an example of salvaging. Your ability to find
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something to laugh at during tough times is a really practical, tangible example
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of how you can, I guess, take some good um from from the bad. >> Yeah. And we we'll get into your whole
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backstory and uh what makes you qualified to speak about this um shortly, but yeah. S number three,
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streamline. >> Yeah. Streamlining. I guess streamlining comes down to how we engage and manage
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our anxieties and worries particularly during times of adversity and and challenge. Um, and there's there's sort
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of two different parts to this. First of all, we know that for particularly young
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people who are going through really rapid periods of of brain development and growth or what we talk about as
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neurokcognitive development, we know that if they spend a lot of time, I guess mismanaging their worries, if they
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spend a lot of time uh anxious or concerned about things, they can actually physiologically change the way
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that their brain grows and develops um to basically set themselves up to be good at worrying for the rest of their
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life at the cost of their ability to solution find or or problem solve. And I think the easiest way to explain this or
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to think about this is when you're young, you become really good at whatever you spend a lot of time doing,
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right? You spend a lot of time kicking a rugby ball, you become pretty good at that. If you spend a lot of time
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practicing a language or an instrument or whatever it may be, you pick these things up really well when you are young
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because your brain's still relatively sort of plastic and malleable and adaptable and developing. But we also
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know likewise, if you spend a lot of time worrying, you become really really good at worrying. Uh and often to the
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detriment of your ability to solution, find or or problem solve. So when it comes to our young people, it's really
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important that we encourage them to find ways to I guess manage or control their
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anxieties and worries during that period of life. But I think it's something
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which is more relevant and and and broadly applicable than just to our young people. I don't know about for
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you, but you know, for me, when I've gone through tough times in my life before, there's a real tendency to, I
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guess, kind of pick up all of the problems at once or pick up all of the worries at once. It's really easy to
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sort of languish under the tap of bad things when something's going wrong and
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to frame and view everything through this lens that that there is no good. >> Um, and you know, a good friend of mine,
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Dr. Lucy Hone, um, who who some of your listeners will be familiar with as well,
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she's, you know, an international expert in in this field around the psychology
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of resilience. And to to sort of steal her framing, the way that she talks about this point is around is what I'm
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doing helping or harming. Uh I guess at its core streamlining is about ensuring that particularly during tough times
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particularly during periods of of adversity and challenge that we are not making things harder on ourselves than
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they need to be. Um yeah. >> Yeah. Actually a therapist said the same thing to me. Ask yourself that is this
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helpful or is it harming? And then another one is is is this even factual? >> Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
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>> Or is it just something that your brain has made up for you? >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that
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that's a really natural human tendency like I say. Um, you know, there's a
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story which I tell about this one which I think kind of it paints it in a in a in a bit of a manner and it's something
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which we can possibly sort of delve into. You know, we're going to delve into the story a little bit later on.
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Um, but when it comes to my my cancer journey and experience which sort of set me on this path, um, during that time of
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of of going through treatment, I lost my my hair, my eyebrows, my eyelashes, and
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as an 18-year-old guy, that was quite it was actually and it feels ridiculous to
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look back on it now, but that was actually a really significant thing. you know, being an 18-year-old guy, you're
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insecure or self-conscious or insecure as as I certainly was, as I presume most of us are at that time of life. And for
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me, I actually vividly remember that it impacted the way that I I guess interacted with with the adversity in
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terms of of of my cancer in a really negative way. and and and I guess I stopped doing things like um you know
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going out in public or or taking time hospital leave when I had the opportunity to even going outside to go
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to the park because I was concerned and worried about the way that other people I guess viewed me um and the fact that I
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attracted attention. It was you know very sympathetic of course but it was a factor which was which was was present.
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I came to realize very quickly that worrying about I guess how I looked and this insecurity which I had around that
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was not only not going towards achieving the outcome which I wanted which was you
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know getting through the cancer and getting better but in fact it was actively working against that outcome.
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You know I wasn't getting out and getting fresh air. I wasn't spending time with friends. I wasn't sort of
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having some freedom from the hospital. So I guess you know I tell that story because hopefully it it paints a or
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illustrates a picture of of what this means. Streamlining is about trying to ensure that during tough times when
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we've already got limited I guess attention and effort and resources that we're putting them towards things which
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which actually matter and go towards achieving the outcome which we're trying
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to to reach not sort of squandering them on on on on other things which are I guess tangentially related and and not
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that important. >> Yeah. So um the forest model so slow down salvage streamline and the fourth
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and final one stand alongside. >> Yeah. Yeah. So standing alongside is you
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know I guess relatively self-explanatory. Um the story which I tell to sort of frame this one though
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was a few years ago I had the privilege of working with the United States Forest
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Service um which is basically the US government's version of of doc department of conservation do similar
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stuff to to doc um but they're you know they're tough a big part of their job is
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just to you know survive out in the wilderness either by themselves or with one other person for prolonged periods
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of of time. So I presented to their team afterwards one of the guys came up to me
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and what he said to me was in the United States Forest Service we have two rules
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to ensure we don't die out there in the bush. The first one is we don't go out
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unprepared and the second rule is we don't climb mountains alone. And what he
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said to me was I think you'll find this relates to I guess resilience into getting through life just as much as it
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relates to surviving in the bush. And I really thought about that and I guess on
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that first point, you know, having some some not going out unprepared. That's
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really what you know, my work is around hopefully equipping people with some skills and tools and strategies to to to
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face life's challenges. On that second point though, far more interestingly,
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not climbing mountains alone. I guess if you take that as a pretty kind of cheesy, pretty obvious metaphor for
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going through tough times, we know for a fact that people who face adversity alone, people who go through tough times
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by themselves or without the support of others around them have just really, really bad outcomes. And this is, you
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know, potentially the most integral of the four S's to creating resilience is
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just having the sense of community, a sense of belonging to something bigger than oneself, a sense of of of a place
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that you are safe or can retreat to, a sense that there's someone somewhere out
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there that cares about you who you can lean on during tough times. And so the idea of standing alongside is I suppose
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yeah actively engaging with people during tough times and leaning on them but also and I guess particularly for us
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as well ensuring that before those tough times you've actually invested the effort and attention and energy and and
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resources into creating relationships where you know that you can can be safe during tough times. I think it's really
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easy for us as guys to, you know, sort of muddle along um and and and sort of suspect that we can go at solo and get
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through all fine when when the times are good and then it's only when things go
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wrong and it's during the tough times that we find actually we did need people
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who we could rely on people who we could lean on. Um and and often by that point
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it's a bit too late. >> Yeah. I suppose um vulnerability comes into that as well. Having that ability
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to let your walls down and um ask for help from other people. >> Yeah, absolutely. which is not it's
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actually not as easy as what a lot of people think it is. >> No, there's it's [laughter] funny
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there's a lot of conversation about that as well. You know, it's very speak up
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and talk and and that but I don't know. I I honestly feel like I'm very unqualified to speak on that point in
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particular because I'm not I'm I'm terrible at it. I'm I'm I'm horrendous
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at sort of not verbalizing or communicating my emotions and and I'm um very very good at sort of masking them
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and and and and sort of pretending that things are great and things are fine when they are not necessarily. So
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>> I'm trying to work on that which is probably why I'm sort of boldly
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oversharing this with you with you right now. Um, but I think that, you know, it's really important that when we talk
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about, you know, the importance of leaning on people that, you know, there just has to be some sort of, it's just
00:14:45
about being realistic with life. I I think I've come to realize, you know, there's a lot of conversation about, you
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know, speak out and speak up and and so on and so forth. I think that there's
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sort of these really grandiose concepts around it. But at the end of the day, it's just as simple as giving an honest
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appraisal of how the day has gone. Not just, and this is probably what I've been guilty of previously as well, not
00:15:02
just focusing on the positives. I'm I'm I'm a really optimistic person. I'm very
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very good at sort of picking out the good and and I guess that's idea of salvaging, even finding good within the
00:15:11
bad, but probably to the detriment of acknowledging or being aware of the fact that things are sometimes bad and that's
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that's still fine. That's okay. You just have to be realistic about how everything is is going, I guess.
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>> Oh, yeah. You um I think I read this somewhere. You were doing like a a
00:15:25
school um book thing for for the book, The Comeback Code, and someone introduced you to the phrase toxic
00:15:31
positivity. >> Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And I I have I I was once accused of that by by
00:15:37
a student at a school and it was really interesting. I I I'd never really heard
00:15:40
the phrase. This was probably two years ago that this happened, I'd say. And and
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I um [laughter] we did so we we we do anonymous well I do anonymous um sort of feedback surveys with students after I
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speak at schools a lot of the time. First of all, you know, no fear like giving 15year-old boys the ability to
00:15:57
anonymously write feedback and comments to you. Like if you want to get a really
00:16:01
honest appraisal of who you are as a person and and and how how they perceive you, then yeah, anonymous comments from
00:16:08
teenage boys is a is a is a pretty direct way to to to cut to the quick, I'll tell you that.
00:16:12
>> Yeah, it's a generation that's grown up with the internet. There's no fear of
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trolling with that. [laughter] >> No, so I probably even had practice some
00:16:19
of them as well. So yeah no they um yeah it's kind of that's something which I do
00:16:24
because I think it's valuable to understand for me what students connect with what they don't what resonates what
00:16:29
doesn't what I could do better and what I could do so I so so I I do it because
00:16:31
of that and and by and large you know the the feedback is is is is generous and and kind from students but yeah
00:16:38
anyway one one day this phase phrase toxic positivity came up and I sort of had to go away and sort of figure out
00:16:44
what that was with a bit of bit of googling and I guess I I guess May maybe what it meant to me was that I had
00:16:52
incorrectly communicated what I was saying. Um, and I guess I've hopefully done a better job of it now. For me,
00:16:57
this idea of, you know, resilience more broadly, but even I guess this idea of salvaging and taking the good away from
00:17:02
the bad and and and the gratitude side of things, like I say, is not about just being willfully, deliberately ignorant
00:17:08
of the fact that there is bad and there is tough times. It's instead, I guess,
00:17:12
the ability to actually face those headto-head to kind of grapple with them and to still look to come out the other
00:17:17
side with as much of a positive mindset and attitude as possible. But I'm not
00:17:21
I'm not I don't think in in denial about the fact that, you know, there's bad in
00:17:25
life and and that's not a bad thing in itself. >> Yeah, I'm torn about it. I'm talking
00:17:29
about the phrase toxic positivity. Um, like a previous podcast guest I've had
00:17:33
on, um, Asia Scott, she's on a TV, reality TV show on Bravo called Below Deck, and she gets accused of it on a
00:17:40
like an international scale all the time. And I'm thinking, is it a bad way to live your life? You know what I mean?
00:17:46
Looking looking for the >> Yeah. >> Look looking for the good in everything
00:17:49
in every situation. I don't know. I I I think and and as with everything in life, I suppose that there's a bit of a
00:17:56
you know, a range or a spectrum and there's probably levels in ways in which
00:17:59
it is healthy and and and levels which it's not. Um and you know, for me, I am
00:18:04
mindful of the fact that I've potentially previously used that kind of um you know, positivity and and
00:18:10
gratitude to sort of mask things that I was aware of or feeling. And that's probably when it's not particularly
00:18:17
healthy or the right thing to do. Um but I guess by and large I think going into
00:18:21
life with an optimistic attitude is going to be a good way to approach and face things.
00:18:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. As someone that has has tried um both um optimism and pessimism.
00:18:31
I feel like optimism has got me a lot further in life than what pessimism >> a hell of a lot more fun as well. I'll
00:18:35
tell you that. >> Yeah. All right. Hey. Um so the book's great. The comeback code. Um so yeah,
00:18:42
everyone can grab a copy of that. Now can we um can we go back to where it all began?
00:18:46
>> Yeah, 100%. the YouTube fame. >> Yes. Y [laughter] >> So, if anyone's wa like watching this
00:18:52
podcast think I I know that face from somewhere. Um that's because you went this is probably in the early days of
00:18:57
the phrase going viral. Like you went viral in um towards the end of 2015. >> Yeah, it was. Yeah.
00:19:02
>> Like 10 years ago. So, um Yeah. How many times has that clip been viewed? Over 50
00:19:08
million. >> Yeah. So, so on YouTube it's, you know, the original video's got got a couple of
00:19:12
million views on it, I think. But through um through you know ways that people have you know re-sliced it for
00:19:18
socials and pages like you know Goldcast and things have reposted it. It's yeah
00:19:22
it's it's well into the well into the tens of millions over sort of 50 million
00:19:25
now across yeah really wide range of different kind of audiences. Um which is yeah very um very surreal I think is the
00:19:33
only way to to put that. That's for sure. It doesn't it doesn't kind of mean
00:19:36
anything to me. you know, particularly during that time of the the cancer and during my treatment, I was just so
00:19:41
incredibly grateful for the support and I felt incredibly supported, I guess, by
00:19:46
the by the public at a broad level and and that meant a massive amount to me. But in terms of the um you know, the
00:19:52
verality of it or the reach and and how many people have seen it, I don't you
00:19:56
know, I don't get anything from those numbers. It doesn't give me a boost. It
00:19:59
doesn't sort of give me a kick in terms of ego or self-esteem or anything. It's
00:20:02
just genuinely um yeah, odd and and surreal. um very very grateful for the support like I say that's come from it
00:20:09
but the numbers in itself don't mean anything. >> No no but I'm I'm keen to unpack the the
00:20:13
whole thing and explore this a little bit because um I'm I'm assuming it
00:20:17
changed the trajectory of of your life and 10 years on you know spoiler alert you're fit and healthy.
00:20:22
>> Yeah I am. >> You've now got a couple of books out and I'm not sure how your life would have
00:20:26
looked otherwise. >> Yeah. And I guess neither am I. And that's you know that's sort of the funny
00:20:31
thing about it. I knew what it was potentially going to look like. I was um looking to go and and go to University
00:20:37
of Oakland here and do commerce and law. I was sort of locked into that path where I had a spot in the halls and I
00:20:42
don't know life life would have at least begun down that trajectory. Um presumably I would have been happy.
00:20:47
Generally as humans we we we find a way to be um I wouldn't have known any different which I guess is a big part of
00:20:54
it as well. But yeah, the experience of the cancer and um everything which came about as a result of that has definitely
00:20:59
shifted and changed the trajectory uh your trajectory which I've I've found
00:21:03
myself on >> um on now. Yeah. >> Yeah. So um October 29 uh 2015 you got
00:21:10
this um cancer diagnosis and the speech that we're talking about that went viral
00:21:14
uh that was on November 4. Yes. Um so like a week later to the day and day three of your chemotherapy.
00:21:20
>> Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. What are your recollections of that?
00:21:27
>> Um the speech itself specifically, I guess I was so incredibly um sick at
00:21:34
that time. You know, it was it was later described by um by one of my doctors as
00:21:39
sort of this phase where when you're beginning treatment, you're kind of
00:21:42
simultaneously still dying from the cancer and having all of the side effects of the chemotherapy at the same
00:21:47
time. there sort of bit of a war going on within you and and not no one's got
00:21:50
the upper hand yet. Um and so you're sort of getting a bit of a double whammy
00:21:54
in terms of that. So it was a really really difficult phase of my treatment. I was I was really sick and when it
00:21:59
comes to the speech itself, it's funny. I don't recall a great deal of it. I was
00:22:03
on a lot of really strong medication at the time. Um I was, as I say, just profoundly unwell. I have I have
00:22:09
recollections of um some specific parts. I remember being wheeled into the auditorium. I remember um sort of going
00:22:17
through and delivering the speech and I remember looking up at the stage lights and I couldn't see anything. It was just
00:22:22
all sort of stage light. Anyone that spent um any time on a stage before knows what it's like when you can't see
00:22:26
an audience beyond the lighting. So, I remember I remember that. Um I remember that my ears were sort of blocked
00:22:33
because I was I was so unwell. You know, if you're if you're very very um sick or
00:22:37
if you got a really bad head cold and you sort of sound like you're underwater, you can't hear yourself. So,
00:22:40
I sort of couldn't see. I couldn't hear myself talking. Um, and I just was was
00:22:45
pretty uh pretty focused on trying to get through the next kind of 15 minutes. Um, and and and in all honesty, there's
00:22:51
there's there's one other distinct recollection which I have was how much I
00:22:55
was just focused on not throwing up down my front [laughter] because it was like it was I'd been very
00:23:01
sick in the even in the minutes leading up to to going on stage. I'd sort of
00:23:05
been throwing up in the car on the way there. I've been throwing up in the wings on side of stage and mom mom had
00:23:11
said you have to take your sick bucket out on stage with you when you deliver the speech in case you throw up and I
00:23:16
was like mom there is no there's no way in which I'm taking a sick bucket out on
00:23:20
stage to deliver the speech and so I hadn't um but you know that you know there was it was definitely in the back
00:23:25
of my head that ms are always right and I did not want to come out on the wrong side of of of this particular um choice
00:23:31
that I'd made. So yeah, there was a focus on just getting through the next sort of 15 minutes of the speech, not
00:23:35
throwing up down my front and and wanting to yeah get it done really. >> When was the last time you saw it?
00:23:41
>> Oh, um it's a good question. I >> do you play a part of it in keynote
00:23:44
speeches? >> I I don't. No, I don't. That's why you mention that.
00:23:48
>> I don't know. I guess for me, um yeah, it's funny because I guess this
00:23:53
the speech is how people met me, right? This is sort of how people and to some degree still remember me and I guess
00:23:59
will continue to remember me. Um, but for me it was it was just really was just that moment in time. Um, you know,
00:24:06
I I I don't think, you know, it was obviously the circumstances were unique,
00:24:10
but I don't think that there was anything particularly, I guess, remarkable about about me in that
00:24:16
speech. There definitely wasn't anything particularly remarkable about my story.
00:24:20
You know, it's it's it's a very common story. Um, and that's not just that's
00:24:24
not humility. Um, I guess for me it's just something which it is what it is and it was what it was. Um, but yeah, I
00:24:32
I haven't seen it for oh man, I don't know, six years probably would have been
00:24:37
the last time I watched it. I sort of, you know, I hear little snippets of it sometimes um when when when people play
00:24:42
it sort of as background to an interview or whatever as a lead in. >> Um, but it's not it's not something
00:24:47
which I go back and watch. Um, and I don't know, maybe I should and have a look and see how I feel about and think
00:24:53
about it with with a bit of a bit of hindsight and a bit of time to to shift perspectives on it. Um, but no, it's
00:24:59
definitely not um it's not not regular viewing, that's for sure. The 50 million
00:25:02
views wasn't me on repeat. [laughter] >> Well, a couple of them were me the other
00:25:07
day. I I had like you, I hadn't seen it in years, but I re-watched it um knowing
00:25:11
that you were coming in today >> and um yeah, there's parts of it where,
00:25:17
you know, I don't know, you look scared, you look Yeah, you look afraid. >> Um were you?
00:25:24
>> Um no, no, I wasn't. And I guess the reason for that I I was I was you know
00:25:30
profoundly uncomfortable and that that was sort of a lot of what my experience with the with the cancer and going
00:25:35
through the treatment was was that it was physically challenging. It was physically incredibly challenging. Um
00:25:41
but in terms of the psychology and the emotion behind it and what I was going through there wasn't there wasn't a huge
00:25:47
amount to it. And I I guess the so so the answer and and the reason for that is that I never had any doubt that I was
00:25:55
going to survive and to to to to live. But I really need to quickly put a proviso on that which is that that was
00:26:02
not some sort of you know relentless positivity or optimism or bravery or courage or anything particularly
00:26:08
admirable. It was literally just being a naive foolish 18-year-old guy. like, you
00:26:14
know, we're not particularly renowned for being aware of our our own mortality
00:26:17
at the best of times, let alone when you're when you're in your teenage years. And for me, I I honestly think
00:26:23
and and and I guess I've come to better understand in recent years in terms of,
00:26:26
you know, brain development and growth as well, that I was pretty much physically incapable of comprehending my
00:26:31
own mortality in that setting. So for me, no, there was never any there was never any fear around it because there
00:26:37
was never any sense for me that there was another alternative option other than to to to beat it. I was never going
00:26:43
to die in my head. And I guess it was only in the latter years as I had the privilege of of walking alongside a lot
00:26:51
of other young people who who went through that same journey and walked that same path as I did who then went on
00:26:57
to have um I guess a different ending to their story than I had that I probably became fully cognizant of and grateful
00:27:04
for the fact that I had survived it. And for me that was always a foregone conclusion. And that, like I say, is
00:27:10
just just a reflection of of of obliviousness and naivity and stupidity. And there's there's a whole bunch of
00:27:15
stories which I think really reflect that. There was there was one time um where I'd had some symptoms come up and
00:27:21
basically I had to have a brain scan and the two options were either one um the the symptoms were were were fine and
00:27:28
unrelated or two um it was because I the cancer had spread to my brain and if it
00:27:32
had done so then it was probably sort of lights out, right? So it was a really it
00:27:37
was a very tense time for evidently those around me but not for me because I knew in very big inverted commas that
00:27:43
that can't have been what had happened because I knew I was going to be fine
00:27:46
right and the brain scan results came back and we were told as a family that yeah lo and behold my brain scan was
00:27:52
clear and it was all fine and mom bursts into tears and and mom mom's balling and
00:27:57
I vividly remember turning to her and and and trying to comprehend that moment and and I just said to her you you
00:28:03
really thought that there was a chance that I might have died. Um, which sounds absurd, right? But for me, it was just
00:28:10
so foreign. The fact that someone could not perceive it, I guess, the same way that I did. Um, which I think was
00:28:16
probably even more foreign for the people around me to perceive the fact that I I I didn't think that I I could
00:28:22
or would ever die from it. There was a another one another story which I guess is really humorous in in in retrospect
00:28:28
but kind of about you know a week or two into treatment um we had to have a sort
00:28:33
of like a family conference with the doctors and the medical professionals because they were worried I was not sort
00:28:38
of um I had not got the message I'd been talking to the nurses about oh well you
00:28:43
know this is great that it's happened at this time of year because it means that
00:28:46
I'll have these couple of months of treatment then I'll come out the other
00:28:48
side and I'll be good to go for for university at the start of next year 2016 bring it on.
00:28:53
>> Yeah, exactly. And lo and behold, that triggered some sort of family conference
00:28:56
because I I didn't get it. Wasn't taking it seriously enough sort of thing. The
00:28:59
doctors were like, "You do you understand what's going on, right?"
00:29:02
Which I did. Um, but I guess like I say, I was just I was just a teenage guy and
00:29:07
was oblivious to it. So anyway, the the reason that we go through all of that rigmarole is because I guess that's the
00:29:13
answer to your question. How did I feel? Was I scared, afraid? Um, and the answer
00:29:16
is no. Because I didn't carry any of the emotional burden from that. I was an
00:29:20
18-year-old kite. I didn't have, you know, a wife and kids to worry about. I
00:29:24
didn't have a job to hold down. I didn't have a mortgage to pay. My life was
00:29:27
really, you know, simple at that time. And so I I feel very grateful for the fact that I didn't have to carry the
00:29:32
burden of worrying about all of these other, I guess, pressures and and and and influences, which for, you know,
00:29:38
other people going through that experience at a different stage of life would be a really big part of that. Um,
00:29:42
so no, for me it was it wasn't emotionally or psychologically too challenging going through that.
00:29:49
>> Yeah. the the the speech itself it seemed um particularly poant uh given
00:29:54
the um the health state at the time. Did you have a different speech um written before you got sick?
00:30:00
>> So the speech was was very much the same. No, I didn't I didn't really write
00:30:03
another speech. Um there was a few things which were tweaked or adjusted um sort of anything in in the speech where
00:30:10
I referred to I guess the diagnosis and and the news that I'd had in the in the
00:30:14
prior week that was that was obviously added later on. But apart from that, the speech was was was in its um yeah
00:30:19
complete in its entirety before the diagnosis. >> Oh. So So the line none of none of us
00:30:23
get out of life alive. Be brave. Be gallant. Yeah. Cuz it seemed um that's the part that's the bit where you get
00:30:29
goosebumps because you're like [ __ ] this this kid is staring death in the face
00:30:33
and he's doing it with such courage. Oh, it was already pre-written. [laughter]
00:30:36
>> Well, that was And I guess at the end of the day, I mean, like I say, I don't
00:30:39
know. I I don't I don't know. I mean, >> the speech was it was it was a high
00:30:44
school end of year speech. Um, and you know, I guess a lot of the weight and the symbolism that that came to it came
00:30:52
from the, you know, the situation and the context and the cancer itself. Um, and I, like I say, I don't I don't want
00:30:58
to give the impression that I'm not, you know, incredibly humbled by the way that
00:31:01
it was received, but for me, I guess it it it was just, you know, my high school
00:31:05
end of year speech that I' I'd written. Um, and and that was, >> you know, made made very different by
00:31:10
the context, like I say. Um, but yeah, I I appreciate that people found meaning within those words and I guess meaning
00:31:16
within that context as well and value from that >> and they still do. Why was it so
00:31:20
important for you to be there? And were your parents trying to talk you out [laughter] of it or the hospital staff
00:31:25
trying to talk you out of it? >> So from from a medical perspective, there was no reason that I couldn't or
00:31:29
shouldn't be there. People around me were very supportive of obviously whatever I wanted to do either way. No
00:31:35
one's going to go tell the guy with cancer that he has to go and give a speech at his school, right? But
00:31:39
[laughter] they were very um they were very supportive of me doing that if that's what I wanted to do. Um why did I
00:31:46
go and give it? I think and it's a it's a it's a a silly answer really at the
00:31:49
end of the day. I think probably what a lot of it came down to was the fact that
00:31:53
I didn't think realistically that I should have been chosen for that role as
00:31:57
as head boy. Um I think there was probably other people who were you know better qualified would have been a
00:32:02
better fit for that role. And I guess that probably had led me over the course of the year to feel really invested in
00:32:09
doing that job to the absolute best of my abilities. I thought, you know, since it is me, I'm going to give it a really
00:32:14
decent shot, a really a really good crack, a really good nudge. And I don't that that wasn't a conscious or
00:32:20
deliberate factor which sort of played into me giving that speech at the end of the year. I didn't think I', you know,
00:32:23
kind of got to go and do this now um because of that. But I I guess subconsciously I'd gone through the
00:32:29
course of that year really wanting to do that job to the best of my abilities. And I I was quite I was I was quite
00:32:35
worried about how I how I did that job. You know, as as as an 18-y old guy, it was a massive privilege and it meant a
00:32:40
lot to me. And I think I do recall there is a line in that speech about that where it sort of maybe some of that
00:32:46
vulnerability or or insecurity about that role that I'd had sort of shows through. I think I said something like I
00:32:51
hope I did you proud when I when I talked to, you know, the senior leadership team and who who had chosen
00:32:56
me for that role. Um, so I think, you know, in terms of why and why I went and did that speech, I basically just felt
00:33:01
that I wanted to to finish the year as strong as I'd started. I felt like I owed it to those those young guys that
00:33:05
I'd had the privilege of leading over the course of that year. >> And how how did it end up online?
00:33:10
[laughter] >> It's there there was a whole series of of sort of flukes um which which led to
00:33:15
to to all of this happening. Um, one of them was the fact that it was filmed at all and the only reason that it was
00:33:21
filmed was because I was um sick. the hospital, sorry, that the school had set up a live stream of the school um the
00:33:29
end of year assembly so that if I was stuck in hospital, I could watch the the prize-giving live stream from hospital,
00:33:35
[laughter] which even as I say it now is hilarious because the idea that you'd be
00:33:39
sick in hospital going through cancer stream and wanted to watch your high school prize giving is just
00:33:44
preposterous. Like I mean they're bad enough to sit through at the best of times, let alone when you've when you're
00:33:49
dying from cancer, right? So, um, the the reason it was filmed was in case I wasn't there and it ended up being
00:33:55
filmed, you know, with me there. And, um, I don't even know if I should kind
00:34:01
of really entirely tell the story. I don't think that I've shared this story
00:34:04
publicly before, but the way that it ended up I guess in the media was because there had been some um stuff
00:34:10
which had gone on basically a game of sort of tackle bull rush which had gone on at school on the last day of school,
00:34:14
the school that the day that I gave that speech, the 4th of November, and some students had been sort of um injured as
00:34:20
a result of that. Um and um the reporter had come to the school to to interview um the headmaster and to to write about
00:34:29
uh what had what had gone on there. And long story short, I I suspect I don't
00:34:33
know this for a fact, but my suspicion is that my story and and speech may have been thrown as a dummy pass to try and
00:34:41
and and and lead someone away from a an unfortunate story about students being injured in a game of bull rush um to
00:34:47
write something a little bit a little bit different. Um but yeah, it started from there and that began as a very very
00:34:52
small piece on page five or six of the press in the days following. Um and yeah, it just sort of continued to grow
00:35:00
and and expand from from there. >> Yeah. And and it [ __ ] it sure did. Hey,
00:35:05
like went went truly international and and um Yeah. What are your memories of going viral? Like were you too sick to
00:35:10
know about it or care? >> Yeah. I >> Or were you were you refreshing and
00:35:14
reading comments? >> Um I I I knew about it very much. I think, you know, for me, um, the the
00:35:22
prevailing memory of that experience was being in the hospital with my girlfriend
00:35:26
and, um, just sort of hanging out and she was, you know, on her phone scrolling through Facebook. And I
00:35:32
remember her turning to me and saying, "Holy [ __ ] there's a story here in the
00:35:37
Australian news. It's been posted on Facebook by 9 News and it has 5,000 likes on it." And it was like, "That is
00:35:44
unbelievable." And then by that night, uh, the TVN Z story on Facebook had like
00:35:50
50,000 likes on it and it had just blown up and exploded over the course of really sort of 48 to 72 hours. And I
00:35:57
guess that's kind of what Verality is about in terms of, you know, clips going
00:36:00
viral like that. It's a very very quick rise and a very very steep descent. Um,
00:36:05
I guess in in my case, I was I was really fortunate that that people sort of had this prolonged care or interest
00:36:11
for me which was really humbling. you know, people saw the clip and I guess it meant something to them. Um, but more
00:36:16
than that, they sort of continued to care for my health and want the best for me afterwards, which was yeah, so
00:36:22
incredibly yeah, it's just genuinely humbling to think that, you know, people
00:36:26
care about you in that way. Like I say, my story was not sort of special or unique or uncommon particularly.
00:36:31
Everyone goes through adversity. Everyone goes through hardship and suffering. To for me in that place, you
00:36:36
know, surrounded by other people walking that same journey as me to feel like I had the support of really without being
00:36:42
melodramatic to feel like I had the support of the nation behind me was incredible privilege. But I was very
00:36:47
mindful at the time that it was not inherently fair, right? I was one of many, many people in that ward going
00:36:52
through that experience, walking that journey who did not have that same level of care and support and love um being
00:36:58
poured out for them. Um, and I think for me, you know, I was I was really mindful
00:37:03
of that and have continued to be mindful of how lucky I was um, since then. So, in terms of yeah, what it was like and
00:37:09
how it felt in a funny sense, for me, the cancer and and that going viral thing is um, it's sort of inextricably
00:37:17
tied together, right? Like my perception of a cancer diagnosis is that in the days following it, you just end up
00:37:23
plastered all over the media and there's and there's, you know, a million
00:37:25
interview requests come in and and and that's sort of the, you know, your life.
00:37:29
interview requests. Really? >> 100%. Absolutely. Oh, interview requests. And, you know, I it was it was
00:37:35
not just interview requests. It was things like, you know, journalists calling through to the ward pretending
00:37:40
to be family members to try and get put through to to my room to speak to me on the phone and lying about who they were
00:37:46
or um people trying to get into the the hospital ward. And and you know, I I listened to your podcast. I actually
00:37:52
listened to the podcast recently. I know it's not a recent podcast, but with
00:37:55
Kelsey Wagghorn, who is a friend of mine [clears throat] now and someone who I've
00:37:58
come across recently in in life through some some um involvement with an organization that we're both part of and
00:38:03
she sort of, you know, it's a story which which she told in the podcast in terms of the I guess how there can be
00:38:09
some sort of pretty odd odd odd people out there as well as the, you know, love and support and care which I had. There
00:38:15
was a lot of people who were um Yeah. doing doing weird things trying to get into my room. Um there were people
00:38:21
>> like fans, stalkers. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose [laughter] sort of somewhere somewhere
00:38:26
between somewhere somewhere between the two or maybe a bit of both. Um >> suppose that's the problem when you go
00:38:30
viral and people know exactly where you are. >> Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] You know where
00:38:32
to find them. >> Yeah. There's one sort of one ward where I could have been being treated in in
00:38:37
Christ Church and and that was where I was. So yeah, there was there was some um you know interesting experiences
00:38:43
which came about as as part of that. But for me that was kind of the normal like
00:38:48
there is so and it sounds it sounds stupid but there's just so much upheaval
00:38:51
and change in your life through that whole process. You know your life gets tipped upside down that all of this
00:38:57
other stuff which came with it wasn't wasn't particularly odd. I suppose it
00:39:01
was just oh just another things changed. Oh, you know I now have cancer. I now have to fight for my life. I now you
00:39:06
know I'm not going to school. I I'm now, you know, ripped away and I'm put in
00:39:09
hospital and and I'm I'm in this environment for the indefinite, you know, for the foreseeable future, for an
00:39:13
indefinite amount of time. Plus, now I'm just on the news when I turn the TV on
00:39:17
at night and and plus there's, you know, people who are in some cases getting
00:39:20
into my room um and and people trying to get into my room and media trying to reach me and my family and and all of
00:39:26
this stuff. So, I guess, yeah, it wasn't just that that was weird in itself. The
00:39:31
whole the whole thing was weird and because of that, it was it was just all quite normal and and how weird
00:39:36
everything was. Yeah. And and you you were 18, so you were like like legally an adult at the time, but you're still
00:39:40
very much a child. Like, you know, you're just finishing your school. Yeah. I can't imagine how troubling that was
00:39:44
for your for your parents. That extra additional layer, you know, like the media trying to call that's wildly
00:39:50
inappropriate. >> Um it was a funny one. >> I better think carefully because I was
00:39:54
on the edge at the time. We probably tried to get you on as well. >> I I tell you what, you you didn't you
00:39:58
guys and actually I remember this as well. guys. Um I think it's a family friend of ours was in touch with you
00:40:04
guys and you guys offered to put together some sort of support campaign and to do something really really kind
00:40:10
and wonderful around that and um we we declined it and you guys were incredibly respectful around that at the time. So
00:40:17
no, you might not remember but I do remember and you guys were actually brilliant specifically.
00:40:21
>> Um what was the question there? Sorry, I completely lost track of your parents about I mean so they're
00:40:27
dealing with um like you were cool with it. you you knew you were sick and you were going to beat it like a flu, a
00:40:32
seasonal flu. But for your parents, they thought their kid was dying. Um then there's this additional layer of um this
00:40:37
sideshow going on like um yeah, have you unpacked that with them? [laughter] >> Probably not. Not particularly. Um it's
00:40:44
funny sometimes when I when I speak at schools, you get students that ask the question, you know, what was this like
00:40:48
for your your parents? And I always say to them, that is such an emotionally intelligent question to ask because for
00:40:53
me, not only did I not comprehend what my parents' emotions might have been at
00:40:58
the time, I didn't even comprehend the fact that my parents had any emotions of
00:41:01
any form at all. To me, they were just, I don't know, parents. You don't even,
00:41:06
at least I didn't, as an 18-year-old guy, sort of perceived them in all of their humanity. And and I wasn't really
00:41:11
aware of what it would have been like for them going through it. So, I think with I guess the benefit of hindsight, I
00:41:16
look back on it now and I just say basically, holy [ __ ] Like for my parents, this was the worst thing they
00:41:22
had ever had to go through in their entire life. It was the hardest thing they'd ever had to be through or to get
00:41:27
through. And yet, at the same time, they were expected to not show any form of weakness. They were expected to be
00:41:33
strong and to be there for me and to prop me up during the hardest time of their life instead of just, you know,
00:41:38
retreating and wanting to curl up into a ball and and cry as I assume that they did. Um, so yeah, my parents were
00:41:43
incredibly brave and resilient and strong and just an amazing source of support throughout that time as well.
00:41:49
And I'm I'm yeah, obviously hugely grateful to them for that. >> Yeah. Well, you you even like banned
00:41:53
your mom from crying in front of you. [laughter] >> Look, that's Yeah.
00:41:57
>> Is this on the documentary or >> Yeah. I I don't know. I read or heard.
00:42:02
>> I've let this story out slip some point. It's it's this a story which I I've been
00:42:06
poor mom I've been increasingly sort of reticent to put it out publicly because
00:42:09
it paints me in a really bad light bas you were 18 you're 18 at the time give
00:42:13
yourself a free >> pass that's sort of and and that was the I guess the context after we after I was
00:42:17
diagnosed um we were told separately my parents were told outside the room I guess I was technically an adult so I
00:42:22
was told by myself they were told with my permission outside the room and so there was this moment where I see my
00:42:28
entire family for the first time after after they have found out and I have found out that I've got this this stage
00:42:33
for cancer. And so they walk back in and and you know, mom's mom's crying as as
00:42:37
you'd probably expect. But as an 18-year-old guy, I think as as any human being, the one of the worst things that
00:42:43
you can experience in the entire world is seeing a parent cry. Like it's just
00:42:47
it's a it is just an abomination of nature. That's not how it's supposed to
00:42:50
be, right? And so whilst it was incredibly understandable, mom comes back in crying. And yeah, it's sort of
00:42:56
it's lived on in family law because unfortunately the first thing I said to mom, the first thing I said to mom after
00:43:01
my cancer diagnosis was, "Mom, if you're going to cry, you're going to have to
00:43:04
get the [ __ ] out." Which is just appalling. It's just terrible. But mom
00:43:10
sort of like startled and and then sniffed a few times and kind of wiped her eyes and said, "Okay." And um to her
00:43:18
immense credit, she she held it together um throughout the rest of that time afterwards. Um, so yeah, I'm probably
00:43:24
going to sort of make that one up to her a little bit, but at the end of the day,
00:43:27
it went a long way to Yeah, I I I I guess, you know, I I just didn't have the capacity to deal with other people's
00:43:34
emotions on top of on top of everything which was going on at that time. >> Oh, when when you're that age, your life
00:43:38
sort of revolves around around yourself. You got to give yourself a free pass. Yeah, we we'll get more into that soon,
00:43:44
but I just a couple more on the um the YouTube clip and u So um yeah, 2015 quote of the year. M do um do you
00:43:51
remember who you were up against? >> Um >> John Key was one e with talking about
00:43:55
ponytails. >> Yeah. Oh, was that 2015? Yeah, that was probably about the right time. Yeah,
00:43:59
that could have been it. I was up against um Steve Hansen. I remember um which I think the quote was um in reply
00:44:07
to do you have anything else up your sleeve at the 2015 Rugby World Cup was um just my arms I think was the quote.
00:44:13
There was um yeah, there was a few others which which Yeah, it's quite funny to look back on the quotes
00:44:18
actually. I have seen that somewhere recently and it's like opening a time capsule like it's it's really funny
00:44:23
because they they they relate very much to a I guess a very specific time in in in culture. It's a really is a it's a
00:44:30
really good snapshot. So um I can't remember the off my head. Um but there was Yeah, there were definitely I don't
00:44:37
know there was there's some great quotes amongst them that's for sure. >> Can you remember yours the winning
00:44:41
quote? >> Yeah, the quote the quote was um none of us get out of life alive. So, be
00:44:45
gallant, be great, be gracious, and be grateful for the opportunities that you have.
00:44:51
>> It's a great quote. >> Um, yeah. Yeah. I I think >> Yeah. Where did that come from? This is
00:44:57
pre-C GPT, so [laughter] there's there's no plagiarism here. >> No, there was there was no no plagiarism
00:45:05
there, I guess. Um, >> it's a deep quote for an 18-year-old. >> I don't know. I just wanted
00:45:11
>> You wrote it when you were 17, actually. Yeah. Yeah. 18. >> I don't know. I just wanted to I wanted
00:45:17
to to get my um you know, high school end of year speech done. I just wanted to I guess write something which um yeah
00:45:24
would hopefully I guess yeah and this is it's funny because I guess like I say the cancer
00:45:30
and the context added and changed a lot around that. But I guess at its core I just wanted to write something which
00:45:35
would connect with those boys that I had had the opportunity to lead and hopefully hopefully inspire them to some
00:45:39
degree. Um, so yeah, the speech itself was just a I guess a collection of of of thoughts which I hoped that they would
00:45:46
be able to carry forward into into life with them. Um, and >> yeah, that that quote was was was that
00:45:53
>> cuz in in this chat you you've almost been trying to paint a picture of
00:45:57
yourself as someone that's like naive and self-centered and self-absorbed. Um,
00:46:02
but that like that quote and those uh those words they they tell a different story, I think.
00:46:08
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. I I guess, you know, as a young person, you're there's
00:46:13
a lot of complexity to to all of us at that time and stage of life. And I I suppose, yeah, I am um pretty kind of
00:46:20
self-deprecating, which which I don't think is a bad thing. I think I sort of
00:46:24
I like the fact that as Kiwis, we are good at just being down to earth and realistic about these things. But I I
00:46:30
guess the reason that I'm I lean into that is because I'm mindful of the fact
00:46:33
that sometimes people perceive, you know, my story and my experience as being so, you know, inspirational um or
00:46:40
so powerful or impactful. And and for me, you know, I just I don't want it to
00:46:45
be framed that way for no reason other than the fact that I think that for for people it makes it feel um I guess
00:46:50
unachievable or unattainable, particularly when it comes to resilience. You know, people say to me,
00:46:53
"You're so brave to get through the cancer. You're so brave going through
00:46:56
that." And it's kind of like, well, no, it was it was it was not bravery. It was
00:47:00
not courage. It was not some sort of superhuman ability. It was just what we all have, which is the ability to kind
00:47:05
of muddle through, fight through to another day, and just to try and keep on going. Um, so
00:47:10
>> if there's anything special or unique or uncommon about my story, it's the fact
00:47:14
that I've been supported by and surrounded by some incredible uh people along the way, which has been, you know,
00:47:19
a massive part of how I've got through those tough times. And that I've been
00:47:22
really, really lucky. I've been, you know, so lucky to be born in a country where I had access to to treatment and
00:47:27
health care. So lucky to have been diagnosed when I was. So lucky to have, I guess, got through that time of life.
00:47:34
So lucky to have been supported by people through that, as I say. And then you're really so lucky to have had
00:47:38
opportunities come about as a result of that as well. Um, I just, yeah, I'm hesitant to frame myself as being sort
00:47:44
of special in any kind of way because I think it comes down to amazing people that I've I've walked alongside and a
00:47:48
lot of luck that I've had throughout that time as well. M >> yeah and I'm just trying to think how I
00:47:54
felt at the time so that you know the clip came and it went viral um and I think we were all just wrapped up in the
00:47:59
story and it's um it just sort of provided a beacon of hope I think to have a positive outcome.
00:48:05
>> Yeah. >> You know to show that that you know some people have a terrible outcome you know
00:48:09
with cancer but not everybody does. >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I guess in a sense, yeah, that that's something which
00:48:15
I've been, you know, mindful of as well and have wanted to try and I suppose
00:48:19
portray through through my cancer experience and journey at the time was the fact that you can go through the
00:48:23
cancer, you can go through that treatment and you can come back out the other side not just, you know, as good
00:48:27
as you were beforehand, but in my case, I think I'm sort of fitter and and healthier than I've ever been before.
00:48:33
And I think that there is yeah, there is something powerful or important in in that for people to people who have
00:48:37
walked that path or people who will walk that path in the future to understand that
00:48:42
Yes, that 2015 quote, none of us get out of life alive. So, be gallant, be great,
00:48:46
be gracious, and be grateful for the opportunities you have. Um, then, uh, 364 days later, you're back again. Um,
00:48:53
in the same stage, same assembly assembly hall. Um, this time cancer-free. Um, this quote was not
00:48:59
quote of the year. It wasn't even a finalist, I don't think. Uh, don't drink
00:49:02
diesels and don't get cancer. [laughter] >> Don't tell me it's not good advice,
00:49:06
though. Right. That's that's bringing things back to basics. Um, again, that's
00:49:10
a that's a snapshot of the time. What What Yeah, for anyone that doesn't know
00:49:13
what we're talking about, what are diesels? >> Diesels are diesels are RCDs. They're
00:49:18
pre premix bourbon and coke and they're I don't know seven seven or eight
00:49:22
percenters. Um, and you still get them. >> I I think you can. I And I only know
00:49:27
because we had a reunion night a few years ago where it was it was compulsory to to drink diesels, which um yeah, sort
00:49:33
of >> I don't know. definitely [laughter] made me uh made maybe made me made me wonder
00:49:38
how we ever managed to drink them when we were 18. That's for sure. Um but yeah, that's I'll tell you what that is
00:49:43
pretty solid advice by and large. As I've said to people before, I think you
00:49:46
know I've had as many um I felt as bad off the diesels as I felt on the chemo.
00:49:52
So um [laughter] they're not >> it's not a great endorsement. >> No, no, it's not. There's no there's not
00:49:56
going to be any sort of brand partnership coming my way from that, I don't think. But
00:50:00
>> well, there's there's two trains of thought. Some might say that diesel um
00:50:03
has the capability to kill cancer. Others will [laughter] others will tell you the cause is cancer.
00:50:07
>> It's pretty it it could be both. It could be either. But um yeah, it's it's
00:50:11
strong stuff. It's strong enough to do to to potentially do either of them. I
00:50:14
think that's [laughter] for sure. >> And then um so the uh the viral clip
00:50:18
that the was the hucker at the end that you got from your your classmates in your school, was that on the clip or was
00:50:24
that a separate >> uh that was on the clip. Yeah, that was at the end of it there.
00:50:28
>> That's powerful, isn't it? Oh, it was it was honestly still to this day probably
00:50:31
the most powerful thing I've ever experienced. It was incredibly powerful and um meant so much to me. It was so
00:50:37
incredibly Yeah, I guess humbling. Um I sort of sigh when I say that because I think I use humbling as a bit of a
00:50:44
crutch word. Like I I I've I've been told before that I repeat that far too
00:50:48
many times in interviews, but there's not really any other way to describe what that experience was like with the
00:50:54
with the um yeah, with the cancer and and and getting through the other side apart from um and the experience of the
00:50:59
hucker other than than humbling. >> I think it's a it's a fine word to
00:51:03
overuse. Um if if you're a person that practices uh gratitude um and looks for
00:51:08
that sort of stuff, I think you would find it humbling. Eh, >> yeah, it was. And it was it was powerful
00:51:12
and I felt the full force of that support. Um, so >> yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Cuz that's the part of the clip
00:51:19
where it it like it looks like it looks like you're on the the the cusp of tears. You're fighting the tears.
00:51:24
>> Um >> Yeah. That was just like a a powerful emotional moment. Wasn't for your own
00:51:29
fear of what you were being wheeled off into. >> No. No. It was just it was just I felt
00:51:34
um >> Yeah. I just I just really felt the full weight of that support in that moment.
00:51:38
It was incredibly overwhelming. It was it was very very powerful. And I, you know, I did go back and watch that clip
00:51:44
of the hucker a number of times when I was back in hospital and going through the treatment and and felt, yeah, felt
00:51:49
the full weight of that support. Um, and and it did help me get through some of those tough times, those tough moments.
00:51:54
Yeah. >> Is it okay for you to talk about this stuff now or do you feel like a
00:51:58
completely different person, you know, given 10 years has has passed? Is it is it is it like triggering to revisit the
00:52:04
cancer stuff or >> Yeah. No. So, you know, for me, it's always quite funny because when I talk
00:52:09
about cancer, and I I sort of inadvertently have ended up spending a lot of time doing that. Um, I recognize
00:52:15
very quickly that, you know, for a lot of people, it's a it's a difficult,
00:52:19
uncomfortable, awkward topic to discuss. You know, you you bring up cancer and it's just inherently uh shocking and
00:52:26
uncomfortable and confronting and awkward. It's really hard for people to talk about. And I guess that's because
00:52:31
we've all had experiences with cancer, right? I mean, >> you know, almost everyone knows someone
00:52:36
that has has been through it who's close to them. Almost everyone's lost someone
00:52:40
close to them to >> one in three is the stat. One in three is the stat that they use for daffod
00:52:44
each year that uh it impacts one in three >> Kiwis >> 100%. And I guess you know that that
00:52:48
that's firsthand. I guess the second hand and and and you know the connections which we have to people who
00:52:52
go through and walk that journey is is you know almost all of us experience that. So I completely get and understand
00:52:59
and accept why there is that discomfort around talking about cancer. why people don't feel feel good or or or feel
00:53:05
comfortable talking about it. I guess for me it's it's a funny one because it
00:53:10
for me it's not, you know, shocking or confronting or awkward or uncomfortable
00:53:13
or weird to talk about. For me, cancer's been part of, you know, my journey or
00:53:16
story or life or whatever kind of cliche you want to put to it. Um, and so because of that, it doesn't feel any of
00:53:23
those those negative things. Um, you know, there's a story which I tell which
00:53:27
I think illustrates how people feel about talking about the cancer and it was a few years back I went into a um a
00:53:32
cafe to to order a coffee, went up to the counter and the brisster at the counter said to me, "Oh, have you been
00:53:36
in a scrap? Like, have you been in a fight?" And the reason that she said that was um I've got a a mark under my
00:53:42
right eye. Um it's only in sort of certain lighting. If you get in the right kind of lighting though, it looks
00:53:46
like I've basically copped a shine or I've got a black eye. Looks like it's
00:53:50
sort of darkened up and swollen up around there. Um I'm not sure if it comes through in the clip or not. you've
00:53:54
got such good studio lighting that I suspect it potentially won't. Um, but anyway, you get in the right sort of
00:53:58
lighting, it looks like I've got a black eye. It's not from that at all. It's
00:54:02
actually from where uh when I went through the cancer, there was a tumor. When it grew and grew fast, it sort of
00:54:07
um damaged the underlying bone structure through there, and when it shrunk away during the treatment, it basically left
00:54:11
this dent or this divid, which if you get in the right light and cast a shadow, the shadow looks like a dark
00:54:16
mark and and so on and so forth. But I wasn't going to tell the barista that
00:54:20
because it was 7:00 in the morning and it would be [ __ ] weird to bring that up with a complete stranger, right? So I
00:54:25
just said just sort of shrugged it off and said, "Oh, no, no, it's not. No, no,
00:54:28
it wasn't that. No, no fighting for me." And [snorts] she goes, "Oh, yep. Cool.
00:54:31
Right. Did you fall down the stairs?" And I was like I was like, "No, no, no.
00:54:36
It wasn't that either." >> It's a really inquisitive barista.
00:54:39
>> I think [clears throat] she has a slow morning or something because she then
00:54:42
goes, "Right, right. Okay. Did you did you walk into a door?" I said, "No, no,
00:54:46
it wasn't that either." But the problem was like, as as I'm feeling more and
00:54:50
more awkward about this, she's getting more and more excited. She's sort of
00:54:53
building up into this guessing game instead of it [laughter] instead of it petering out.
00:54:56
>> She's in too deep. >> Yeah. She's loving it. She's, "Oh, you
00:54:58
play rugby." I was like, "Nah, nah." [laughter] And she sort of throws a few more things
00:55:02
out there. And I'm sort I'm always watching her sort of like steam the milk, thinking like, "Fuck, I can
00:55:06
probably ride this out if she just gets this coffee done quick enough until eventually she sort of sealed both of
00:55:11
our fates." and she went, "Well, I'm not going to give you your coffee until I
00:55:14
can figure out how you've done that to yourself." [laughter] And I thought,
00:55:17
"Well, it's going to be a seriously long morning and a long morning with no
00:55:20
coffee if I kind of let you guess away to that ride." So, I um you know, blurted out and like I say, to me, it
00:55:26
means it means nothing. It means nothing to say it. There's no emotional attachment to it. There's no emotional
00:55:30
response. It doesn't you know, it doesn't mean anything to me to say it,
00:55:32
but I just said, "Oh, it's from where I had cancer a couple of years ago." But
00:55:35
to her, I think, you know, her reaction was basically the epitome of of of how I
00:55:40
think people feel about talking about cancer. She physically recoiled in horror. Her mouth literally dropped open
00:55:45
in shock. She would not stop apologizing. Got the coffee for free in the end offer actually. [laughter] Um,
00:55:49
which I think >> you've been using that excuse. >> Yeah. I mean, I haven't paid for a
00:55:52
coffee in nearly 10 years now. I just [laughter] always angling for for freebies from baristas. No, I um I think
00:55:58
for me, you know, that sort of illustrates this this discomfort which people have around talking about cancer.
00:56:02
And like I said, I completely get and understand and accept why that is. But for me, um, to answer your question, no,
00:56:07
I mean, it doesn't mean anything to me to talk about it because it's just how
00:56:11
it's been. It's just it's just the reality. It's just the truth. Um, and
00:56:15
and yeah, I just feel lucky to still to still be out the other side of it and to
00:56:18
have the opportunity to talk about it. >> Yeah. So, it was um September 25th. By
00:56:22
the way, who who was Jake Bailey precancer? Like, what was the biggest adversity you went through before that?
00:56:28
Parents breaking up. >> Yeah. I I I guess I'd been through that sort of normal regular kind of young
00:56:33
person adversity. I mean, I'd lost a grandparent or lost two grandparents. Um, but I'd lost my grandmother who I
00:56:39
was particularly close to in in the year prior to the diagnosis, but that's, you
00:56:42
know, normal adversity. I'd lost, yeah, my parents had split up and separated
00:56:46
when I was um seven. So, that's, you know, again, pretty normal, regular kind
00:56:50
of um young person adversity. I don't think I was, you know, necessarily particularly resilient person before the
00:56:56
cancer. I don't even think I'm really a particularly resilient person after the
00:56:59
cancer either. Um, but I guess I was just a, you know, a pretty regular average sort of teenage guy. I I wasn't
00:57:07
good at sports. I did better in the academic side of things. I didn't do a lot outside of school. I wasn't sort of
00:57:14
musically talented or into culture or arts or like I say, you know, sport was never a strength. So, I was just a, you
00:57:20
know, pretty regular kind of teenage guy hanging out with his with his his mates
00:57:24
and his family and just getting through school and figuring out what he wanted to do with his future.
00:57:28
>> It was fabulous hair at the time. You look like you could have been a six
00:57:31
member of One Direction. [laughter] >> That's quite funny. It's funny when when
00:57:34
I watch that clip. When I watch that clip back of the speech, the times I have seen it, whenever I see a steal
00:57:39
from it, it always really bugs me that my hair looks like that because it's all
00:57:43
greasy and disgusting and horrible. And I guess part of me, it's selfishly part
00:57:48
of me part part of me, you know, um, regrets that because the reason it was is that I had stopped washing it because
00:57:55
I was worried it was going to fall out before the speech. If I if I had washed it, I had it into my head that now I
00:58:01
started the chemotherapy and I was going to lose my hair that maybe I'd get in
00:58:04
the shower, wash it, and it would all come out. And [laughter] so the reason it looks like that in the video is just
00:58:09
that it hadn't been washed for for days. I wasn't, like I said, I was very unwell
00:58:13
anyway. So I wasn't having a lot of um sort of showers particularly. Um but >> I suppose it was the last thing on your
00:58:19
mind. You're not looking in the mirror in the car going, "Yeah, the hair
00:58:21
still." >> No, I wasn't. No, I think I was lay I was laying in the backseat of the car
00:58:24
throwing up. So it was it was it was it was kind of where it was at now. uh where was that then?
00:58:28
>> Um but yeah, I I started to notice it more because as as you'll see, I don't
00:58:32
have a great deal of hair on my head now. So I look back on the clip from 10 years ago and think, man, what a lucky
00:58:37
guy I was back then. [laughter] And I think I took that took that for granted a little bit. So yeah.
00:58:42
>> Yeah. So it was um September 2015 uh when you started getting sick. Um there
00:58:46
was some pain in your jaw. You thought it was wisdom teeth related. >> Yes. Y
00:58:50
>> um so that's starts you on the the health system treadmill. >> Um
00:58:55
>> yeah. Yeah. What happened? you just get progressively sicker and sicker. Was it
00:58:58
a gradual thing? >> It was it was over the course of um probably two two to three months.
00:59:02
>> Why did it take so long to discover it? >> I guess the the the easy answer is that
00:59:06
there was always kind of a logical explanation along the way. And you know, wisdom teeth um saw wisdom teeth and an
00:59:12
18-year-old is not going to raise any alarm bells, right? Wisdom teeth hurt. Wisdom teeth get impacted. They get
00:59:16
infected. They cause difficulty. When my wisdom teeth did that, that was completely normal. Um and then yeah, I
00:59:24
guess gradually stranger and stranger things started to happen. I lost a lot of weight um very quickly. I lost about
00:59:29
12 or 13 kgs over the course of about 2 and 1/2 weeks. But again, there was kind
00:59:33
of a reason for that. I couldn't chew any solid food. So at the time I was living entirely off vanilla up and go. I
00:59:39
was having I was having three three lers of up and go a day. Sort of a one liter
00:59:42
bottle for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Um and you know, vanilla up and go, great stuff. Still have it, but um not
00:59:49
exactly what you'd call complete nutrition, right? So it wasn't particularly surprising when I lost that
00:59:53
weight. Then I guess the bottom half of my face went numb was the next thing which happened. Um which is you know
00:59:59
alarming to to just you know lose feeling in the bottom half of your face and for it to not come back. But again
01:00:04
there was sort of a reason the wisdom teeth um in an infection in there or anything like that can compress the
01:00:09
nerves which supply sensation to the face. So there was sort of another logical explanation. Um and then yeah,
01:00:16
progressively I just got I guess sicker and sicker um until eventually I was kind of bedbound and and started
01:00:21
throwing up blood and you know in these intervening periods I should make it clear as well that there was a lot of
01:00:27
engagement with the medical system too. Um you know I was was seeing a number of
01:00:32
doctors, a number of maxelo facial surgeons, a number of dentists. I'd been to A&E a couple of times but effectively
01:00:38
there was just always a relatively logical explanation. Um, and you know, when it comes to the presentation of
01:00:45
these symptoms, you don't jump straight to the idea of getting this the cause is some extraordinarily rare
01:00:52
and uncommon form of cancer, right? Um, you go with the most most obvious um solution because 99% of the time that's
01:00:59
correct. It's just in my case it it wasn't. >> Yeah. Again, back to your parents, that
01:01:04
must have been a particularly troubling time for them. >> Yeah. Yeah, it Did they manage to shield
01:01:08
you from how worried they were or was it quite >> like clear to you just how concerned
01:01:12
they were about >> like losing like 10 kilos in 2 weeks or whatever? That's that's it's not great.
01:01:18
>> No, it's not. [laughter] It's not it's not great at all. Um particularly given
01:01:21
that I'm not and and yeah, I'm not not a huge guy as as you will have noticed.
01:01:25
I'm sort of 5'7 and I probably weighed then about what I weigh now maybe 60 65
01:01:30
sort of kgs. So losing losing 10 plus kgs rapidly was um not you know >> was not normal or expected. Um yeah for
01:01:38
my parents I guess they they did do a good job of I suppose shielding me away from kind of their emotions and feelings
01:01:45
around it at the time. Um yeah, I think I think for them they were they were abundantly worried, but we were doing
01:01:54
everything which we could in terms of engaging with the you know the medical system and professionals and they were
01:01:59
really good at at and in practical terms at helping with that and and pushing those things along and advocating for me
01:02:04
within the healthare system. Um but yeah, that's just that's just how it
01:02:09
was. >> Can you remember the moment you got the news? >> Yeah, I can. Yeah, I do. Um, it was a
01:02:16
regular kind of afternoon. I was laying in my hospital bed, my hospital room there. I'd had a whole range of
01:02:22
different sort of tests and procedures in the in the days preceding this. Um, and I guess I knew at that point that
01:02:28
something was was really wrong. I didn't know what it was. I didn't really expect
01:02:32
that it would be cancer either, but I did know that it was going to be bad, whatever it was. Um, just based on based
01:02:38
on sort of what the doctors had been like and based on how sick I was. Um and so lady who I'd never met before came
01:02:44
into the room and she sat down on the bed beside me and she introduced herself as a hematologist. I had no idea what a
01:02:50
hematologist was. Um but she went on to explain just very slowly uh very calmly that I had yeah I had cancer that I had
01:02:57
burkits non-hodkkins lymphoma. Um and explained that at that stage they'd found it through my uh brain lining, eye
01:03:04
sockets, nasal passages, sinuses, gums, jaw, spinal fluid, pancreas and through both of of my kidneys. Um and yeah, she
01:03:13
sort of talked me through um what the options were in in terms of treatment, which was when I say options, it was
01:03:19
sort of the option to have treatment or or not. Um which I guess is a theoretical choice more than anything
01:03:25
else. You know, for me, I was always always set on on having that treatment because, you know, in my head there was
01:03:31
no alternative other than than getting through it. Um, you know, you sort of you actually framed it really well
01:03:36
before when you said, you know, you think of it like um you sort of said you viewed it as having a flu or getting
01:03:43
through a flu or getting through a cold. And really that's kind of what it was in
01:03:46
my head. It was like every other time I'd been sick previously. I'd gone to
01:03:50
the doctors. I'd been given some medication and I'd come out the other side completely fine. And I guess for
01:03:55
me, I perceived the chemotherapy and the treatment in a very similar sort of way.
01:03:59
It was just a matter of just doing doing doing what the doctor said, going through that process and coming out the
01:04:03
other side. >> If if you didn't get treatment, the other option like how long did how long
01:04:08
did they >> uh about about 2 weeks sort of >> you were a very sick young man.
01:04:12
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the cancer, you know, it's incredibly it's the fastest growing
01:04:15
cancer which which exists. Um it's it's evidently very very rapidly growing. And
01:04:21
so, yeah, sort of a two to three weeks was the doctor's best estimate at at kind of, yeah, about how long I' I'd
01:04:26
still be kicking if if it wasn't for immediate treatment. Was was your mom in
01:04:30
the room? Is that the moment that she bled her eyes out? >> No. So, mom mom actually came back in
01:04:34
after that. So, I was I was just in there with the the hematologist at the time.
01:04:38
>> Do you you start crying or are you just sort of is the room spinning? >> Um, no. There was Yeah, there was just
01:04:45
nothing. There was really and I think [laughter] it's worth sort of thinking
01:04:50
of it in in in the sense that to never to to it's incredibly hard to explain as you
01:04:56
can as you can probably tell by the way I'm struggling to frame it. I think in
01:04:59
that moment I felt genuinely nothing which sounds like a bit of a a platitude or a cliche but you've got to think in
01:05:06
life you're always feeling something. Even if you're just feeling, I don't
01:05:09
know, contented or calm or relaxed or whatever, there's always some sort of feeling there. Even if it is a very
01:05:15
neutral one, there is always something there. In that moment, I genuinely, for the first time, and it's only happened
01:05:20
once once since then, I felt absolutely nothing in that moment. It was completely blank. Um, and it's it's
01:05:26
maybe some of your listeners will have experienced that themselves, maybe you've experienced that it's a moment in
01:05:30
life, but if you if you haven't, I think it's incredibly hard to understand or or
01:05:34
or imagine what it must be like to feel blank like that. just absolutely absolutely absolutely nothing. Um and
01:05:41
then as we talked through the the the treatment with the doctor um I pro I probably felt a little bit of a sense of
01:05:49
um maybe impatience. I just wanted to get started on things. I really knew that the only way to get through the
01:05:54
cancer was to be was to go through the treatment. Um I wanted to come out the other side. I wanted to get back to my
01:06:00
life again. And so there was a sense of let's just get on and get started with
01:06:04
this. Let's let's let's get through this. Um, and so that was maybe the
01:06:08
first emotion I felt afterwards. But no, at the time there was no, you know, it didn't feel like the world was crashing
01:06:12
in. It didn't feel like, you know, it didn't it didn't feel like this big sort
01:06:15
of movie moment. There's no big emotions attached to it. Wasn't the things you'd
01:06:18
expect. It wasn't angry, scared, sad, afraid, upset. It was it was nothing. Just just very much nothing.
01:06:25
>> Yeah. May maybe that's cuz you were so so unwell potentially. >> Yeah.
01:06:29
>> Just pleased to finally get an answer. >> There was definitely a bit of that as
01:06:31
well. Yeah. Yeah, there was definitely a sense that um particularly after, you know, months of getting increasingly
01:06:37
sicker without any answer or solution to it, there was definitely a sense of relief that we had kind of got some sort
01:06:44
of answer. And it wasn't a great answer, obviously. Um but it gave us something
01:06:49
to work with, whereas up until that moment, I'd been getting, you know, worse and worse without any idea why or
01:06:54
what we could or were going to do about it. M I I I know um what your answer will would be to this, but um yeah, is
01:07:02
is your mom or your dad salty that it took so long to find the answer? >> Um [laughter] yeah, look, it's funny. So
01:07:09
I I've got no I got no hard feelings about about anything which happened because for me, you know, it didn't
01:07:16
change the outcome. First of all, if it had changed the outcome, it would have been different. Um two, it was there was
01:07:21
never any individual failings. There were some some times where the system um sort of could have performed better. Um
01:07:28
and there were times where I I could have and perhaps should have been diagnosed earlier, but I genuinely have
01:07:33
no hard feelings around that. Um these things happen. That's just the reality.
01:07:37
You you can't have, you know, a healthare system which gets everything right all the time because it's run by
01:07:42
people and people don't get everything right all of the time. It's just it's
01:07:44
just the inherent nature of these things, right? So I don't have any hard feelings around it. Um I don't you know
01:07:51
Yeah. [laughter] my parents and family um may have slightly different perspectives and
01:07:56
feelings around that. But for me, you know, I I've spoken to to people involved through that process and um
01:08:03
it's been a learning opportunity for a lot of people that's come about as a
01:08:07
result of that. Um and yeah, I'm I'm just grateful that it's gone on to to
01:08:11
have some sort of positive impact in terms of how things are done now. Um so that hopefully next time it doesn't
01:08:16
have, you know, it can save someone from falling through some of those same cracks.
01:08:22
So, is this the point where your mom goes to a bar called the Pegasus Arms [laughter] and gets like two double
01:08:30
shots of vodka? >> Yeah, this is [laughter] And mom hates when the story comes up, which is
01:08:36
so funny. Yeah, sorry about that one, Mom. Um [laughter] she and because it paints it's just like
01:08:42
I can't believe she ever let this story slip because it just paints her in the
01:08:46
light in a light which is so much not who she is as well which is what's so funny about it. M is very very um she
01:08:54
she's she's she's fun. She's great but she's very you know she's she's not a
01:08:58
big drinker one. Um in fact she's she's she's spent most of her life sort of not
01:09:02
really drinking at all and she's not really much of a drinker now either. Um
01:09:05
but she's very she's very responsible. Um, she's very levelheaded. She's very,
01:09:11
I guess mature is a funny word to use to describe an adult anyway, but she's
01:09:15
just, yeah, she's a very a very normal, upstanding citizen. Um and somehow um to
01:09:21
her to her ongoing perpetual detriment let slip the fact that yeah that that that that one of the ways that she
01:09:26
responded to that in the immediate aftermath was was was with a few drinks um to try and take the edge off so that
01:09:32
and and as she says when she told this story it's so that she could go back and
01:09:35
sort of put her emotions aside and be there to support me. And in fairness I just told her that if she was going to
01:09:41
cry she had to get the [ __ ] out. So, she was working to find a I guess an alternative solution to mean that she
01:09:46
could kind of be there and I guess taking the edge off things a bit was was what it was in that moment. Um, but
01:09:52
sorry, Mom. >> Cuz you you did um you did a documentary and your mom told the story um
01:09:57
firsthand. And when I saw that, I thought I thought, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, [laughter] it paints a picture of the
01:10:03
type of character she is." Yeah. >> But then you read the first book that
01:10:06
you put out called um What Cancer Taught Me and >> uh there's these wonderful parts
01:10:12
peppered through the book of your mom's sort of I guess you'd call it a diary or
01:10:15
letters to >> Yes, it is. Yeah. She wrote me a she wrote me a letter every day when I was
01:10:18
going through treatment and it was about, you know, what had gone in practical terms, it was about what had
01:10:23
gone on and the treatment and how I was doing, but more than that, it was just a
01:10:26
really broad Yeah. capturing of that time and the emotions and thoughts around it as well. It was really, really
01:10:30
powerful. >> Yeah. They're like love letters to you really in a way. >> They They're a mom's a mom's sort of
01:10:35
care and affection for a son going through this this time and it and it you know a lot of stuff shines through and
01:10:40
it's really powerful. >> Yeah. And you read them and you you think part of it she's writing it for
01:10:46
you for for something that because you're not able to fully remember what's
01:10:49
going through so you'll have an encounter of it >> and then part of it on like on the the
01:10:53
flip side of that is um a diary for herself in case it's a negative outcome as well. Um, yeah, it's multi-layered
01:10:59
and it's um, yeah, it's definitely like a lot deeper than than a lady that just
01:11:03
um does a bit of dating. >> It's funny, eh, because like [laughter] the drinking story paints a real vivid
01:11:08
picture of mom and it paints like complete opposite of who she is. Like it really I don't just I don't it's not
01:11:13
like I'm just leaping to mom's defense here, but it really is I find it quite
01:11:16
amusing that the the picture it paints is just could not be more diametrically opposed to who she is as a person. So
01:11:22
yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So during this time, what can you It was Is there a point where you can remember the worst
01:11:28
physical pain you experienced? >> Yeah. Yeah. There was and there was lots
01:11:32
of different It's quite funny. I often get asked that by particularly students.
01:11:35
Students are kind of like what was the what was the most gruesome or gory or painful thing that happened and I'm like
01:11:40
cool like I'm on the same page like these are some of the best stories. So I
01:11:44
used to talk a lot more about some of these you know medical procedures and things. I actually I knocked that on the
01:11:48
head in at the end of 2023 because I I figured I'd kept telly over the course
01:11:53
of 2023 I'd had 14 audience members pass out when I when I told them about some
01:11:58
of these medical procedures which I'd had [laughter] at some point. >> Well, you think they'd be quite a
01:12:01
grizzly sort of bunch. >> Uh yeah, 100%. And and it's quite funny. always um you know I' sort of told some
01:12:08
of the same sort of stories and talked through the same sort of things with um with my uh with adult audiences I guess
01:12:15
you'd say as well as companies and businesses and organizations and teams that I was working with but it's
01:12:19
[snorts] always the teenage boys that pass out the girls are way tougher way stronger the men seem to get through it
01:12:26
all right and and and the women are fantastic as teenage boys just drop like flies and I had I have one presentation
01:12:31
to a group of sort of year nine and 10 boys so there 14 15year-olds and they were like, "Yeah, yeah." Like, you know,
01:12:37
tell us the gruesome, gory stories. Yeah. Yeah. And then four people passed out in one presentation. And I was like,
01:12:43
I I can't keep doing this. It's a health and safety hazard at some point. Like,
01:12:47
it becomes a it becomes um it just becomes wrong to to stand up on stage and tell these stories when you know
01:12:53
there's a decent chance that someone's going to flake. So, um >> All right, let's do it one last time,
01:12:57
though. [laughter] But for anyone that's driving a car right now, maybe just pull
01:13:02
over >> deep breaths and and I as I used to tell the students, you know, if you're going
01:13:05
to pass out, put your head between your knees. Um probably not while you're driving might not be great, but I
01:13:10
[snorts] don't know, some of the some of the things which stand out were um something called a bone marrow aspirate,
01:13:14
which is where they take a sample of your your bone marrow. It's obviously inside your bones. Um and the way they
01:13:19
do it is through your pelvis. you know, if you if you touch the back of your, you know, your lower back where where it
01:13:24
meets your, you know, sort of your pelvis, the one on each side, left and right, you've got these bumps or lumps.
01:13:30
Fancy name is an iliac crest. It's sort of the back side of your pelvis. That's
01:13:34
where they they go in through. Um, and basically they take sort of like a the easiest way to describe it is it's
01:13:40
basically like a receipt spike. You know how like at cafes and restaurants where
01:13:42
they spike receipts? is basically one of those. And the doctor, whilst you're
01:13:46
awake for all of this, basically hammers the um you know, this this big metal spike through the skin, through that
01:13:52
thin layer of flesh, punches a hole through inside the bone um and then sort of digs around on the inside of your
01:13:58
bone and and takes a sample of the bone marrow. But you know, this process of of
01:14:01
hammering the spike through you, in my case, you I was young, I had pretty robust, strong bones. And I remember
01:14:06
being in this hospital bed with the doctor hammering the spike through and sort of being thrown around in the the
01:14:12
gurnie like flailing around because of the force that the doctor had to use to hammer the spike through my through my
01:14:18
pelvis and it was you know you're awake for all of us. It was it was horrific
01:14:22
and I remember crying. I cried. I cried like a baby. I cried and cried and cried
01:14:27
and then you know other things um intratheals or sort of spinal taps. Um I had had had chemotherapy put into my
01:14:33
spinal column and um yeah more people have experienced those than than the bone marrow aspirates but that was that
01:14:41
was horrific. That was that was really bad as well. Um and I was having those weekly during treatment um as as part of
01:14:48
my treatment protocol. So there was you'd get through one and you still knew
01:14:51
you had another one coming and another one coming after that. And um that was yeah that was really that was quite that
01:14:57
was quite bad. you know, the the needle would punch into your spinal column and there would be a distinct pop as it went
01:15:01
into your spinal column and then the needle would um hit the nerves which run through your spine towards your legs.
01:15:07
So, you'd get shooting pains through your through your legs when the needles
01:15:11
hit different parts and you get sort of electric shocks shooting down your legs and it was it was that was pretty
01:15:16
horrendous. Um I guess even yeah in terms of the pain strictly there was you know the cancer itself the diagnosis the
01:15:23
cancer in my jaw or pre-diagnosis was that was remarkably painful um and yeah there was there was even a period where
01:15:31
I started to get these horrendous pains in my uh legs the bones in my legs which
01:15:36
felt sort of inexplicably at the time as if my legs were you know sort of sort of
01:15:41
breaking um and came to find out in retrospect that you know with my cancer it's you blood cancer. So, it's produced
01:15:48
inside the bones and the bone marrow. Um, because it's so fast growing though,
01:15:52
the the cancer cells can't get out of the bones fast enough. And so, like if
01:15:56
you shake a bottle of fizzy drink and the pressure builds up inside, um, that's basically what happened to my leg
01:16:01
bones and and the pain, this incredible pain was basically the legs breaking and
01:16:05
and sort of developing these micro fractures from the pressure building up inside them. Um so yeah there was there
01:16:11
was [laughter] a a fair few you know painful bits and gory stories and and stuff along the way but at the end of
01:16:16
the day it was not like I say particularly um unique or remarkable and and often I sort of found myself looking
01:16:22
around and feeling kind of grateful for the situation that that I was in relative to other patients. There was a
01:16:27
guy in the room next door to me at one point who had a brain tumor and the way they were treating it is they drilled a
01:16:32
a hole through his skull and put a port in and they were basically putting chemotherapy through a hole in his head
01:16:37
onto his brain every day. And I was thinking, well, you know, if he can get through that and he's just as human as
01:16:42
as I am, then, you know, presumably I can get through this as as well. Um, so yeah,
01:16:49
>> why why can't they give you like a local or a general force [laughter]
01:16:54
fix on the receipts thing? It's a great visual, by the way. >> Terrible visual, but a great
01:16:59
>> So you get you get a local for that. Um, but the way that it was described to me
01:17:03
and definitely the way that it felt was that you can sort of numb up the skin and the flesh around there, but you're
01:17:09
particularly when you're young, your bones have nerve endings which grow on the outside of the bones and you can't
01:17:13
numb those up. Um, so you don't feel it go through the skin. Um, but you do feel
01:17:18
it go through the the bone and it was Yeah, she was pretty she was pretty rough.
01:17:23
>> It's a great endorsement for up and go though, eh? [laughter] >> This guy's got bone density like we
01:17:28
haven't seen before. Yeah, this guy off the charts. This guy has been drinking 3
01:17:32
lers a day for the past month or something. >> Like, we're never going to get through
01:17:35
these things. >> Yeah. Calcium content through the roof. >> So, um Yeah. So, all all up your your
01:17:40
cancer journey was like it was very brief, eh? Very brief. So, it was like to towards the end of uh 2015 that you
01:17:47
get sick and then by January 29 you're in remission. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it was Yeah. 3 months of
01:17:52
of treatment. >> Um and I feel incredibly lucky for that. uh like I met and knew and was close to
01:17:59
other young people through that time who had very very long roads ahead of them for for them and their family to to
01:18:05
travel. You know, you'd meet you meet six-year-olds that had four years worth
01:18:08
of chemotherapy ahead of them and you just think that you know that is just >> to use the phrase again that really is
01:18:13
just an abomination of nature. It's just so wrong. It's just so so wrong um to
01:18:18
see young people who have to walk this this path and and their families that have to walk this path with them. And
01:18:23
for me, you know, 3 months of treatment, you can do anything for 3 months, right?
01:18:27
It was it was it was short. It was sharp. It was either going to work or it wasn't. And I'm just lucky that in my
01:18:32
case, it it it worked. And and after that, I was I was out the other side and and my body began to heal and recover
01:18:37
and repair. And um my health is is is now better than it's ever been before,
01:18:42
which is I'm lucky to be able to say that in itself. I know lots of other young people and and other survivors who
01:18:46
have um you know not recovered to to to the same level of standard that they were at beforehand who have been left
01:18:52
with permanent side effects as a result of the treatment and whilst I I had some
01:18:56
of those for a period of time um and and for the long term I'm I'm now you know
01:18:59
fitter and healthier and better than I've ever been before physically. >> So so January that um announcement on
01:19:05
January 29 was that a special day for you or for you was it just like yep good this is what this is what I expected?
01:19:10
>> Yeah. um like for your parents like I I imagine it was a huge um moment of
01:19:16
elation. >> Yeah. I think when you say the 29th, you mean being announced in in remission the
01:19:22
first time? Yeah. >> News. Yeah. >> Well, well, yeah. I said when I said
01:19:25
before that I've I sort of, you know, felt that that nothingness when I was diagnosed and I've only felt it one time
01:19:30
ever since then. That was that was the second time. When I was told that I was in remission, when I was told that the
01:19:34
cancer was gone, I once again felt the exact same thing that I'd felt when I
01:19:38
was diagnosed, which was um nothing. absolutely nothing. A complete nothing and not any of the things you'd expect.
01:19:45
I didn't feel um relieved. Um I didn't feel happy. I didn't feel like a weight
01:19:51
had been lifted. Um I guess even as an 18-year-old guy, I didn't feel that on
01:19:55
behalf of my my parents even. I didn't sort of I didn't I didn't sort of
01:19:58
perceive how powerful or impactful it was for them because for me, I was probably still very much in the space of
01:20:03
I knew I was going to get through this. I can't believe you guys ever doubted
01:20:06
that there was a possibility that anything else could could kind of happen. Um, and so
01:20:12
>> yeah, I mean my memories of that time, like I say, are just being pretty pretty
01:20:16
neutral, pretty kind of blank. Um, and I was I was very aware of how lucky I was
01:20:22
to have made it to that point. Um, but probably the full weight of the emotion hadn't hadn't come through or sunk in at
01:20:28
that point. >> What's your relationship like or what's your thoughts on manifestation? Cuz you
01:20:33
[clears throat] >> I mean it it sort of worked out the way you the way you sort of visualized.
01:20:38
>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Um, it's a funny one a because I think that at the end of the
01:20:42
day I suspect that there would be or is some sort of proof or evidence out there
01:20:49
whether it's anecdotal or not that people's attitude as they go through I
01:20:54
guess any form of adversity or suffering goes towards a you know achieving an outcome right and I I suppose that
01:21:01
theoretically anyway cancer is probably no different to that but the reason I'm
01:21:05
quite cautious around that is because if If you make this case that yeah you know
01:21:10
I got through the cancer because of this manifestation or because I was so you know positive or optimistic because I
01:21:15
expected to you then end up creating this this false negative um where you suggest that anyone who doesn't survive
01:21:22
or doesn't make it through or who isn't as lucky as I have been sort of had some
01:21:26
sort of role in in in causing or creating that outcome for themselves which is just isn't true. Um so whilst I
01:21:32
guess yeah I I I guess there's there's maybe a case to be made or it's it's
01:21:36
entirely unknowable but I guess there's a case to be made that perhaps my um
01:21:40
expectation that I would get through you know came to or went towards achieving that outcome but I certainly don't think
01:21:46
that we can you know always jump to those conclusions because otherwise you end up creating this you know the
01:21:51
inverse is a is a false narrative. Yeah, it's it's a tricky one, isn't it?
01:21:55
Because um you know, people like to say things like, "Yeah, you know, she kicked
01:21:58
cancer's ass, whatever." But it's kind of saying that anyone that doesn't kick
01:22:01
cancer's ass wasn't enough of a fighter or didn't try hard enough or do
01:22:05
something. But, uh I think there's a lot of like genetic luck and other things
01:22:08
that sort of come >> 100% and and I think >> I guess the language around that's
01:22:12
probably shifted a lot in recent years as well. Um you know I think people are sort of um more hesitant to frame things
01:22:19
as you know fighting being a fighter or fighting cancer or you know beating cancer like you say kicking cancer's ass
01:22:24
and coming out the other side because I suppose there is a risk that it creates this this inverse as well um which isn't
01:22:30
which isn't true. Yeah. >> Did you did you are you familiar with the term survivors guild?
01:22:35
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Did did you have any of that at the time or have you had any since then
01:22:39
or >> I >> were you just in in the woods such a brief time you [laughter] didn't you get
01:22:43
to form connections? I tell you what, I I don't think I've ever experienced any
01:22:46
survivors guilt. Um, but I've I I've carried and continue to carry a whole
01:22:51
lot of >> like a shitload of survivors gratitude, I suppose I'd call it. Um,
01:22:56
>> you know, for me, um, you turn up into the hospital, right? And and in my case, you know, I was
01:23:04
treated in what's called the BMTU, which is, you know, this this ward for adult
01:23:08
patients. as an 18-year-old, I wasn't there. But I spent a lot of time in another ward called Chalk, which is the
01:23:12
Children's Hematology and Oncology Center. And that's, you know, you know,
01:23:15
that's that's that's kids with cancer, right? >> And you turn up into this hospital, you
01:23:21
you're diagnosed with cancer at age 18. And I expected that when I got to that
01:23:24
place and I looked around, I would be surrounded by people who looked like my grandparents, right? I thought it' be an
01:23:29
old people's sort of setup. >> Or if people were particularly unlucky,
01:23:34
really unlucky, I thought maybe there'd be some people my parents age there. And
01:23:37
I turned up in this this ward chalk and spent time in there. And you look around
01:23:41
and you are surrounded by people who look a hell of a lot like yourself, people, you know, my age at the time,
01:23:46
people considerably younger than me. Um, and you know, I I I don't know whether I
01:23:52
was naive or oblivious or a bit stupid, but I genuinely never comprehended until
01:23:57
that moment that I saw it with my own eyes that each and every day just up the road from where I've been living, going
01:24:02
to school, going out to town, there were dozens and dozens of other young people
01:24:06
with goals and dreams and hopes and ambitions and whatever just as real and vivid as mine who through no fault of
01:24:12
their own were robbed of that opportunity to go out and to chase those goals and hopes and dreams And for me, I
01:24:19
know that I was incredibly lucky to make it out of that place, to walk out of there. There's a lot of people who I was
01:24:24
close to, a lot of people who I knew who didn't have that same privilege, who who
01:24:28
didn't get to move forward and move on in life. And so, for me, I feel a sense
01:24:32
of responsibility to live my life to the fullest on their behalf. And I think people can sort of comprehend that and
01:24:38
understand that if the roles had have been reversed realistically that's all I
01:24:41
ever could have asked of anyone else is that if I didn't get to walk out of there and they did that they just went
01:24:46
and gave it a decent [ __ ] shot on my behalf. Right. And so I carry that on on my shoulders. But more than that I don't
01:24:54
think that that's a responsibility which I just bear alone cuz I can't really
01:24:57
figure out why it would be like is it my job because I was lucky or is it my job
01:25:00
cuz I met these people or is it my job cuz I saw this place? No. I really think that collectively we uh as as as you
01:25:07
know society and and and particularly young people that I speak to as well now have an obligation to just go and live
01:25:13
life to the absolute max the absolute fullest on behalf of those people that don't get the opportunity to do so. And
01:25:19
I hope that that doesn't come across as sort of patronizing or sanctimonious.
01:25:23
But for me I only feel this way because I I know how lucky I have been. I've
01:25:27
seen that place. I've met some of those people who weren't quite as lucky. And
01:25:31
whilst there's not survivors guilt, there's a hell of a lot of survivors
01:25:34
gratitude for the fact that I can still now go out and and and do all of these things which I get to do. And I think
01:25:38
that that really spurs me on every day. >> No, I I love that. I I think you've got
01:25:43
a like a second chance and you're not squandering it. And it would be easy um
01:25:47
you know, because your your thing seems so your whole process seems so streamlined and seamless, you know, in
01:25:53
and out, couple of months later, done. Um it would be easy to especially with the passage of s uh time like you sort
01:26:00
of lose the appreciation for it or take it for granted but it's it's clear that
01:26:03
you're not >> uh I think that that's that's got to be a conscious sort of choice and decision
01:26:08
and in all honesty it has faded in in part. I don't think go away. It'll
01:26:12
always be an integral part of of who I am and how I view life and how I feel in in in the world. But I had a really
01:26:18
powerful chat with a guy um a number of years ago now when I spoke at an event at a conference and afterwards he came
01:26:23
up to me and he said, "Hey, you know, I went through um cancer when I was when I
01:26:27
was the same age as as you went through it and I just wanted to let you know that all of those things that you think
01:26:32
and feel now, all of those positive changes, all of the gratitude, the perspective, all of these good things
01:26:37
which have come about as a result of the cancer, they do fade with time. you have
01:26:42
to consciously deliberately try to to try to cling on to these things and hold on to them because they will lessen and
01:26:48
deplete and and sort of shrivel up a little bit as you you get further and further away from that experience and
01:26:53
time of life. So for me, yeah, I guess I try and cling on to cling on to the good
01:26:58
and the positive change which has come about through that and as a result of that. Yeah.
01:27:02
>> And what about your mental health? It seems like it was rock solid through
01:27:05
this time. Um has it been good since then? >> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think like I say,
01:27:10
I've been um I've I've probably been at times, as we touched on earlier, too
01:27:16
good at just focusing on the good. And I guess maybe maybe that's sort of like
01:27:23
the flip side of that that ramble that I just went on there about, you know, living life with a sense that, you know,
01:27:29
everything every single day is always going to be better than the alternative that I had. Right? when when you almost
01:27:34
die and you continue moving forward, you've sort of you've sort of got to go
01:27:38
into every day >> kind of grateful for how things go regardless of how good or how [ __ ] they
01:27:43
are. And I think previously I've probably been not good enough at actually stopping and processing and
01:27:50
thinking and feeling emotions because I just go, "Well, [ __ ] I guess this is
01:27:53
better than having died." um which >> in some ways is a really powerful, you
01:27:57
know, motivator and sense of gratitude and in other ways is just a really profoundly unhealthy way to to view and
01:28:04
think about mental health and and how bad things um just happen sometimes in life. So, um yeah, my mental health has
01:28:10
has been has been good. Um, but I've still got as as we all do, a lot to a long way to go and a lot to learn and
01:28:16
and probably need to do do better in terms of how I Yeah, in terms of how I engage with myself around mental health,
01:28:24
I think, >> oh, spoiler alert, mate. And it never never ends. It's an ongoing treadmill.
01:28:29
I'm 52. I'm still trying to get better, still learning. But I think that's an
01:28:32
exciting thing about life that you never there's never a peak that you reach, you
01:28:36
know? There's always another peak. >> There's and and I guess that is that is
01:28:40
the excitement like you say. Yeah. >> Um but I guess as well in a sense that's
01:28:44
kind of why I'm so passionate about this resilience side of things is that that's
01:28:48
quite I guess that's quite empowering the knowledge that yeah you sort of never there's always another challenge
01:28:54
to come. There's always some other [ __ ] that's going to happen. There's always
01:28:56
some other problem which is coming your way but if you have the capability to try and sort of steal yourself and and
01:29:02
learn and prepare and develop and and hone these skills of resilience that hopefully you'll be in a better place
01:29:08
when those come. And if not, at the very least, you can at least go into them as
01:29:12
the opportunity to learn and and treat adversity as a bit of a training ground instead of as a a victim. I think that's
01:29:19
one of the things which is most empowering about learning about resilience and and I guess my hope with
01:29:23
this book in terms of equipping people with some skills around resilience is that when things go wrong, you can
01:29:28
actually face it from the perspective of this is a a training ground, a learning
01:29:32
opportunity. this is something which I can can can become better from as opposed to just oh god I've ended up in
01:29:39
this shitty situation that I don't want to be in this sucks and there's nothing
01:29:42
good which can possibly come from this. It allows you to meet adversity as a as a as a as a survivor rather than a
01:29:48
victim. >> Yeah, I love I love the path you're on and um your resilience the more
01:29:52
awareness about it and the more that people um can learn that it's something
01:29:55
that can be you know trained rather than you're born with or you're not um I
01:29:59
think the better and hypotheticals are a little bit they're they're silly.
01:30:02
They're kind of pointless. But um yeah, how would life [clears throat] potentially look now had it not been for
01:30:07
the cancer? >> Yeah, I don't it's a good question. I don't know. I was dumb. It's a dumb
01:30:10
question. >> Well, no, it's it's not. I mean, it's it's it's an interesting thing to ponder
01:30:14
and it's something which I've definitely found myself pondering more recently as
01:30:16
well. >> I think like I say, I would have been up here. Um I would have I would have
01:30:21
studied in commerce and law. I think I probably would have gone down the law pathway. Life would have been life would
01:30:26
have been life. Life would have been presumably good and happy and and whatever. Um but you know for me in all
01:30:31
honesty I feel like I'm moving to a stage a stage and phase of life where I'm potentially um looking towards
01:30:38
moving into something different anyway. You know, for me, I've had an amazing 10
01:30:42
years um traveling and and speaking to, you know, over 100,000 people around the
01:30:46
world, having written a couple of these books. And in a lot of ways, I feel like
01:30:50
whilst I'm I'm really grateful for those opportunities, I I very much enjoy that
01:30:54
work, I feel like I'm maybe moving towards um the next stage and and phase of life. Um I don't want to be stuck
01:31:01
with this um teen cancer survivor thing forever. you know, I um no, no one wants
01:31:08
to be defined by something which they did when they were 18. For for better or worse, no one wants to be remembered for
01:31:13
something which they did when they were in in high school, right? And and as I say, I'm I'm so grateful for the support
01:31:18
and care um and and and everything which has come about, all of the opportunities
01:31:23
which have come about as a result. But I feel like I'm ready to to move out into
01:31:26
the world and to to do something different and to to to be something else and and hopefully to become something
01:31:32
more. Um, and I don't know what that opportunity will be yet. Um, if you find
01:31:36
it, let me know. If anyone listening knows about it, be sure to get in touch. I'd love to hear about it. Um, but I
01:31:42
think, you know, I'm moving into a stage of life where I'm ready for for the next
01:31:44
journey, the next adventure, and I'm excited for that. >> Oh, you're playing dumb. You've got
01:31:48
ideas. I bet there's a note section on your phone with a you you must have like
01:31:52
a sort of idea of what you want to move into next. >> Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing
01:31:56
a few different things. Um, and I can definitely see places and ways in which I can can hopefully add value and
01:32:02
particularly add value given, you know, the opportunities and lessons and learnings which I've I've taken over the
01:32:06
past couple of years. I don't think that, you know, I don't feel stuck >> um in this in this this this stage or
01:32:11
space of life where I'm at now. Um, but it's time for me to go out and to prove
01:32:15
myself that to to prove to myself that I can do something different and be something more.
01:32:19
>> Yeah. Well, you're you're a guy right now that loves type two fun. Um you
01:32:24
showed me a photo before we came in of um you and I side by side in the in the Kepler challenge last December which is
01:32:29
a a 60k mountain run. Um so you love um like putting yourselves in situ deliberate situations where it's going
01:32:36
to be tough to be challenging. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Yeah. Why is that? Do you think
01:32:39
that would have been there without the cancer? >> Uh no it wouldn't have. It definitely
01:32:42
wouldn't have been for me. you know, endurance sport has been a really big part of the last sort of five or six
01:32:47
years for me from um sort of ultra running and and multisport in terms of the coast to coast and endurance
01:32:53
cycling. Um that all came about because in all honesty, like I say, I sucked at sport when I was when I was at school. I
01:33:00
was like the kid that got chosen last for the team in PE and when you got picked for the team, the whole team
01:33:05
would grown that you were on their team. Like really, this is this is again not humility. This is just reality. I was
01:33:10
the kid that swam widths instead of lengths at school swimming sports day, which I said that to someone recently
01:33:15
and they said like, "What are you what do you mean? What are you talking about?" I mean, literally I had to swim
01:33:19
the widths across the pool instead of the lengths because I couldn't get from
01:33:22
one end of the pool to the other. So, they made me do across [laughter] the pool instead. And like I say, I I'm I'm
01:33:29
not talented in sport. And then I remember getting to the end of year 10 at school. I remember I vividly remember
01:33:35
my last ever PE class that I had and I wasn't taking PE as a subject the following year. And I remember getting
01:33:40
to the end of that class and going to the locker rooms and getting changed and thinking to myself, that is the last
01:33:44
time I will ever exercise again in the rest of my life because no one will ever make me go for a run or or exercise ever
01:33:51
again and I suck at it and I don't want to do it anymore. So I'm not going to
01:33:53
ever have to do it again. This is great. And then [gasps] I guess so so first of all going through
01:33:58
the cancer showed me a couple of things. One that my body had a a hell of a lot more to give than I expected it to.
01:34:04
There were times when, you know, during treatment I was so incredibly sick that I did not think I could it could get any
01:34:10
worse or I could enjoy anymore and I always could. And the second thing was that I realized that my brain was a
01:34:16
really big part to unlocking that. Like I came to see the impact that um yeah that my inner inner thoughts and and
01:34:22
that my head had in terms of controlling my body. And because of that, I guess I
01:34:26
fell into this this world of endurance sport because it's the only thing I've
01:34:29
ever found since then where you can put yourself in a situation where you think you've got nothing more to give and it
01:34:35
somehow turns out that you do and two that the key to unlocking that is within your within your head. So got into the
01:34:41
ultr running side of things and um I've done a fair bit of that over the past
01:34:44
couple of years. But as I say to kids at school when I go to speak at schools like you know I I I was the kid that
01:34:51
sucked at sport. If you are the kid that sucks at sport, that gets picked last for the PE team, then endurance sport is
01:34:56
the sport for you because you don't actually have to be good at anything. I still suck at running. It's just that I
01:35:01
can run for 10 hours straight. You don't have to be good at it. You just have to
01:35:04
be able to do it for a really long time. And I still suck, but I can sort of outlast other people. Um so, so, so
01:35:10
endurance sport is the sport for you if you're stuck at sport. >> I'm I'm laughing along with you cuz I
01:35:14
see I see parallels. I was the same with sport. Um so team sport, I felt like I was always so uncoordinated and so
01:35:20
useless. I'm letting other people down. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Sure.
01:35:23
>> Cuz if you're running, it's like >> that's feeling as well. I mean, like
01:35:26
that's especially when you're you're teenagers and you're you're mean to each
01:35:29
other, right? Like you let other people down, you know about it. You get told about it pretty quickly.
01:35:34
>> Um and yeah, the running side of things, yeah, being individual is is gives that.
01:35:39
But in many ways, you know, there's there's more to it for me. you know,
01:35:42
being out in nature, the isolation, um the trail running side of things is is really important for me in terms of my
01:35:48
mental health and just as a person, you know, it means a lot to me to um yeah, to to be in the nature. And I think
01:35:56
broadly speaking, I guess the thing is when it comes to to to learning and developing resilience, when it comes to
01:36:01
being good at getting through tough times, you have to go through adversity and hardship. Like I said, you don't
01:36:06
learn to be resilient without going through adversity. And for me, I manufacture or create some of that
01:36:13
adversity in my life by, you know, signing up to go run a 60k mountain race because I know it'll be hard, but I know
01:36:19
that when I get through it, I will be stronger as a result of that. And I'll
01:36:22
get to apply all of these lessons and learnings around resilience along the way and and it will hopefully make me a
01:36:26
better person on the other side of it. >> Yeah, 100%. And yeah, psychologically it
01:36:31
just gives you this data that when things get tough in life, the unforced adversity, you know that you you can
01:36:36
handle it because you've got this >> you've got, you know, you got this
01:36:39
previous data that says you can. >> Yeah. And I mean that's how we build
01:36:42
resilience in life. That's that's what we know about resilience is that it's
01:36:45
it's created around something called self-efficacy, which is basically your ability to back yourself, your
01:36:49
self-belief, your sense that you can get through something and and over the course of a lifetime. That's how we
01:36:54
become resilient as adults. We start off as young people, you know, um, getting through a school swimming sports day
01:36:59
where you have to swim widths instead of lengths of the pool or getting through being picked on in PE class cuz you suck
01:37:04
like I did. And it gives you the sense of I got through this, so I can get through that. And that builds up over
01:37:10
the course of a lifetime until the other end. You're saying, like I said, I can
01:37:13
get through this divorce because I've got through this redundancy or I can get
01:37:16
through this redundancy because I've got through the loss of a loved one. And
01:37:19
that is that you know that is how we create resilience over the course of a lifetime is by taking on increasingly
01:37:24
bigger and bigger challenges. That's something which you can choose to do. You can you can find that within you in
01:37:28
a in a in a voluntary context by you know endurance sport in my case. For other people it's learning a language or
01:37:34
learning an instrument or going through a breakup or moving overseas. Um there's
01:37:38
lots of ways that people find this within themselves. >> I I love that. I've got a couple more
01:37:43
about resilience then. Um we'll let you go. Jesus [ __ ] We've been going like an
01:37:48
hour and 40. [laughter] >> I tell you what, I'm a bit of a listener to your podcast as well, like I said, so
01:37:53
I know for a fact and nearly an hour 40 is that that's on the long end of things. I'm quite I'm quite happy with
01:37:57
that. >> Oh, no. It's good though. It's it's been an intriguing chat and I can't thank you
01:38:00
enough for being so >> No, it's it's a real privilege. Oh, there you go. I've done it again. It's a
01:38:03
it's a real privilege to have the opportunity to be here. Yeah, you you pick yourself up when you say these
01:38:07
things, but I um I only started like getting into practicing like gr gratitude and journaling a few years ago
01:38:13
and it's it's actually like a I find it a great way to live your life like to be
01:38:16
appreciative of of these things. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if it's
01:38:22
a ne Yeah, I don't think it's a negative at all. >> Look, and and it's something which I
01:38:24
talk about a lot in the book. I think at the end of the day, kind of in in life,
01:38:28
we've sort of got the option to capture all of the small good stuff, all of the
01:38:33
little wins, all of the the the tiny bits of good throughout the day, uh, or the option to kind of ignore them. Um,
01:38:40
but I think that if you don't capture those, if you don't deliberately seek
01:38:43
them out and try and look for them and find them, then I think that it has a, you know, an overall negative impact on
01:38:48
you over the course of your your lifetime. There's so much good to be found in each and every day. And like I
01:38:53
said, I'm I'm still very I'm very keen to try and temper this, like I say, with
01:38:56
an understanding of the fact that not everything has to be good. Not everything always has to be positive.
01:39:00
You can you can feel bad and feel down and feel upset sometimes. It doesn't have to be good through and through.
01:39:04
>> But I think that if you can find and seek out and and and look for the good
01:39:08
within each day, overall you you know, you end up with a better experience of of life as a result of it.
01:39:14
>> Yeah. If you if you lose the ability to appreciate the good little things in
01:39:18
life like um a crazy red sunrise or um you the first sip of a really cold glass of water first thing in the morning um
01:39:26
yeah life's life life's just going to be way more difficult. >> Yeah I think there's you know there's no
01:39:29
point in not capturing those things and I think that it it puts you in the right
01:39:32
mind mind frame to to get through tough times as well. That's you know the second is that idea of salvaging that
01:39:38
>> uh the gratitude is a good thing to practice not just during tough times but
01:39:41
just always >> it's a good habit to be in. Uh what are some practical strategies you found most
01:39:46
effective in bouncing back from setbacks? >> Yeah, I mean like I said the four S's is
01:39:52
really at the core of everything which kind of really everything which we know about making people good at getting
01:39:57
through tough times. I mean it's a little bit tongue and cheek to say that no one could really assume to create
01:40:01
something quite so comprehensive. But that book and the 4s model is a relatively good summary of like 40 years
01:40:07
worth of research into the psychology of resilience and what makes people good at
01:40:10
bouncing back and getting through. I think you know for me individually the things which I find most powerful are
01:40:17
probably um you know people and connections and relationships. I'm I'm a
01:40:21
big kind of I guess people person um and and find a lot of uh benefit and strength in leaning on people and being
01:40:28
being around people. Um but equally all of those other three S's are kind of
01:40:32
relevant and applicable. I think that these are things which we know for a fact make people good at getting through
01:40:36
tough times. And I I would assume that for your listeners as we went through those four S's, hopefully they kind of
01:40:41
all rang a bell. I'd probably be a bit worried actually if anyone found them
01:40:44
particularly revolutionary because if they if they do ring a bell, if it's something which you say, "Hey, that's
01:40:49
how I got through X, Y, or Z. That's something which I do during tough times." Probably means you're a
01:40:53
relatively resilient, welladjusted adult. It probably means that you're just good at getting through tough
01:40:58
times. >> I I honestly think it's a it's something that a lot of people just don't even
01:41:03
give any thought to. >> And and in a lot of ways, you don't have to. Like I say, you know, those 4S's,
01:41:07
like I for you, for anyone, they're probably relatively familiar. They probably do ring a bell. They probably
01:41:12
are things which you've utilized at different times. I think what is really worth keeping in mind is is two things.
01:41:17
One, if any of those ring a bell, if any of those are things which you do, it's
01:41:21
because you have learned and earned those through blood, sweat, and tears. Like, you weren't born with those. They
01:41:26
weren't innate within you when you came out of the womb. Those things, those
01:41:29
skills, if you do them, if you've got them, it's because you had to earn them
01:41:32
when you went through suffering, right? And [snorts] particularly for our young people, we actually have the capacity to
01:41:38
equip them with these skills before they have to go and figure it out for themselves. We can send them out into
01:41:42
the world, I guess, a bit armed to go out and to deal with things better so that they just have a head start. They
01:41:48
can they can meet adversity as as as a as I say a training ground with some skills and tools on their side instead
01:41:54
of having to sort of bumble through and figure it out. And I think for for for many of us, that's why adolescence and
01:41:59
growing up is so hard is because you start facing real world adult problems without the real world adult skills to
01:42:04
deal with them because you haven't learned them yet. That's really what that time of life is is just figuring
01:42:08
these things out. So, you know, my work with schools, I've been really passionate about equipping young people
01:42:12
with those. But secondly for for adults um for the rest of us as we move past that phase of you know adolescence and
01:42:19
into life I think it's really important to put words to those things which we
01:42:24
don't think about um sort of frame up and understand why these skills that many of us will have why they actually
01:42:30
work what the research is what we can do to lean into them further and how we can
01:42:34
can sort of integrate them into our lives more and I think you know for me with with with the comeback code with
01:42:39
this book I think the thing which has been most I guess exciting about it is that it was it was written really with a
01:42:45
teen audience in mind or or at least for young people and a lot of the feedback and and reviews that I've received over
01:42:52
the past couple of weeks that it's been out has been people of all different
01:42:56
ages and stages of life saying how beneficial and helpful it was to them. I think my favorite review so far was from
01:43:01
someone who said I'm sort of three times the age of the author. I'm 27. You can
01:43:05
do some cook math on that. Wow. >> And he said for me this has taught me so
01:43:10
much and given me so much. And I thought, you know, wow, that's that's that's, you know, very very humbling to
01:43:14
hear. So, yeah, I think it's important to put words to these things and to remember that for our young people,
01:43:18
they're not born with them innately. None of us were, none of us are, but we
01:43:22
still hopefully can learn them and better understand them. >> And how cool is that that someone in
01:43:26
their 80s is reading your book and still still trying to like get better or improve?
01:43:31
>> That's cool. That's so exciting. It is. >> Um, what advice would you give someone
01:43:35
who feels like they can't see a way forward? I think the main thing which you know and and and it's a we touch on
01:43:42
this before because it's a situation which I think most of us have found ourselves in right when when something
01:43:46
bad happens when something goes wrong when there's something catastrophic in
01:43:49
your life often that first sense of emotion or feeling around it is a sense of I've got no idea how I'm going to get
01:43:56
through this next >> you know day week hour >> and and as I said before hopefully the
01:44:02
answer for you for me for for anyone listening has been I'll just get through
01:44:06
to the afternoon or I'll just get through to a catch up with a mate or I'll just get through this week of work
01:44:11
or I'll just get through this project and and to try and take it piece by piece. I think when you feel like there
01:44:16
is there's no way through when you feel that sense of overwhelm, it's incredibly
01:44:19
important to try and strip things back down to a scale at which you don't feel
01:44:23
overwhelmed and to take things on your own terms, whatever size pieces those may may be.
01:44:29
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's something I get from like doing endurance runs like
01:44:34
the Kepler we're talking about. Like it's just Yeah. Putting one foot in
01:44:37
front of the other like taking it Yeah. just go to the next little orange war pole thing, whatever it is.
01:44:44
>> Absolutely. >> Or go to the next drink stop and it's amazing eventually you do that and
01:44:48
eventually you get to the finish. >> And as you would have experienced, as
01:44:50
I've definitely experienced, your your sense of of scale in terms of what you're trying to get through shifts
01:44:56
depending on how you feel. Like there sometimes there was sometimes in Kipl when we ran that last year together that
01:45:00
for me I was like oh boy I just need to get through to that next tree or I need to get through to the next warer like
01:45:06
you say or whatever it may be but and other times you go well I just need to get through to the next aid station or I
01:45:12
need to get through to the halfway mark. Um some of these things are are big some
01:45:16
of these things are small you just have to be adaptable and reactive depending on how you're feeling and that's
01:45:20
applicable to kind of everything in life. God knows it's not just applicable
01:45:23
to to endurance sport and ultra running. Yeah, by the way, very charitable of you
01:45:27
to say we ran it together. [laughter] There was a moment near the start line where we got caught um photographed um
01:45:33
side by side. >> I don't think I didn't realize I didn't realize that you were there either. I'd
01:45:37
seen you before. I had no idea we were next to each other and I'm sure that you
01:45:41
didn't know that I was next to you either, but when I saw the race photos come through afterwards, I picked it
01:45:45
straight away and thought it was Yeah. thought it was pretty entertaining. >> That's cool. But just for clarification,
01:45:49
you you you were finished. You may have even been showered and changed and I was
01:45:54
still [laughter] deep in the forest. >> Well, that I think you've exhibited
01:45:57
considerably more resilience than I had to. Right. If I was at home in the shower and you were still running
01:46:01
through the freaking forest, then I think you probably you probably did a better job of of enduring it and being
01:46:06
resilient than I did over the course of that day. >> Good point. I had way more time on my
01:46:09
face. >> That's 100%. It's a bigger day for you. >> Um, hey, this has been great. Is there
01:46:13
any any final words? Any any parting words? >> No, I don't think so. It's just been
01:46:17
it's been such a cool opportunity to chat and you know I I can I get the sense and understand not only from this
01:46:22
conversation but from from listening to your podcast and and from having met and
01:46:25
known you before as well that you're someone that that thinks about you know
01:46:28
these these challenges in life and how we can best sort of overcome them and and and I know that you've exhibited
01:46:34
great resilience at different periods through your own journey as well. And I think that that's probably why we've
01:46:38
spent nearly sort of two hours talking about it is because um for you, for me, hopefully for the listeners as well, um
01:46:44
we've seen and understand what a powerful and profound impact that resilience has in the course of our
01:46:49
lifetime. We both understand that as as hopefully everyone listening does that that there is this inevitable adversity
01:46:54
we all go through and we all face. Um but it's been a really cool opportunity
01:46:58
to sort of yan through and chat and unpick a little bit with you with you here now. So, thank you for the
01:47:02
opportunity. >> It's been great, mate. Jake Ba, thank you so much. Cheers, Dom.