00:00:00
The All Blacks are good because they hurt when they lose. You staff are no different. I think the fans don't really
00:00:05
understand how much it does hurt people. I remember 207 like that was horrific. >> How often do you think about 2019?
00:00:13
>> Pretty regular >> really. >> Yeah. He was probably not the most
00:00:18
talented rugby player. Definitely the most best work ethic. Mentally the toughest. In the end, he was the
00:00:24
greatest rugby player of all time. I think he always knew I I wanted to talk to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have
00:00:29
a cup of tea." So, we went and had a cup of tea and I said, "You know, I reckon
00:00:34
there's only one thing that's going to stop us winning the World Cup." And he
00:00:38
said, "What's that?" And I said, "Yeah." >> One of the players um in your team in
00:00:42
Japan is um Aaron Smith. >> Like to say huge sorry to my partner, Tegan. >> Why didn't you throw him to the Wolves
00:00:51
at the time? >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever
00:00:57
there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:00
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:04
hole in one in it again. >> Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
00:01:11
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:15
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.
00:01:20
Generate. Putting performance first. Sir Steve Hansen, welcome to my podcast. >> Yeah, thanks very much for having us and
00:01:33
just call me Steve and we good things. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> Does the knighthood thing not sit
00:01:39
comfortably with you or >> Oh, it's okay. But, you know, I've always been my parents called me Steve
00:01:45
and that's who I am. So, uh, I think the SU thing is a reflection really of a
00:01:50
whole group of people who worked really hard for a long time and got some great rugby results. So, um, yeah, it's not
00:01:58
it's not just mine. >> Just before you go any further, I'll just check the mic level. Andy, is it
00:02:03
okay with um Steve sitting back like that or >> Sorry, I'm going to Yeah, it's
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>> I need this much closer to your mouth if you can, Steve. >> Big old mob.
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It's very phallic. >> Um, so I thank you so much for for coming on my podcast. I really
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appreciate it. I reached out to uh one of your sons on Instagram. >> Yeah. Ollie.
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>> Yeah. Flicked him a random DM and um Yeah. How did that conversation go? Did
00:02:32
he he messaged you and asked you if you were keen or >> uh he said some guy's reached out and
00:02:37
wants to do a podcast with you and here's his number or something. So here we are.
00:02:43
>> Yeah. So, I I I emailed you and um your reply could not have been more courteous. Like, you replied um
00:02:49
apologizing for the um delay. Um and and then here we are. And I wasn't sure what
00:02:54
to expect because there's this sort of um feels like there's almost like two Steve
00:02:59
Hansen. Like there's um the Steve Hansen that perhaps the media think of and that
00:03:03
some people seen which is quite an intimidating scary guy. And then there's the Steve Hansen which if you speak to
00:03:08
players that you've coached speak about which uh sounds like it's the most
00:03:11
lovely gentle giant imaginable. >> Well, I guess that's for other people to
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judge and I just try to be me and uh the media and I we had our moments and especially early on. um I didn't
00:03:25
probably handle them that well and wasn't until I you know got the opportunity to be the
00:03:31
head coach that I realized that I had to do things a bit differently and spent some great time with Ian Fraser was a
00:03:37
wonderful man and a good strategist and he straightened me up a we bit on how we
00:03:43
should approach it. So just became easier to just to be myself. So, >> m >> but you know it is uh it is a a job that
00:03:53
requires um to be open and honest, but it also I think it's a job that you've sometimes
00:03:59
got to protect your player. So, it's a fine balance. >> I'm looking forward to deconstructing
00:04:04
all that. Um yeah, the idea of this podcast is to try and get a a a portrait of the man Steve Hansen. Um not just the
00:04:12
job that you've you've done. Um even though that that job you did it's like
00:04:16
so fascinating and it's such a big and important role especially in New Zealand
00:04:19
and you you finished at the age of 60 and you'd been in that role for like what was quarter of your life.
00:04:25
>> Yeah. Well a lot of time but you know it's a privilege to be able to coach the
00:04:30
All Blacks or be part of the All Black team and the hardest people or it's hardest on the other people in your
00:04:37
life. you know, they make all the sacrifices because they're missing out on dad time or husband time or friend
00:04:45
time. So, for me, that's the reason why I gave up in the end because, you know,
00:04:51
it was time to give back to those people. >> So, in anticipation of doing this, I got
00:04:57
hold of a copy of the book um the legacy by Gregor Paul. >> How how would you describe that? It's
00:05:02
not like Is it a biog and would you say is it is it an authorized biography or an unauthorized biography?
00:05:08
>> Uh well I didn't authorize it but Greger and and um can't remember the publishing
00:05:15
company they wanted to do a book and they were at me and at me or the publishing company was at me and at me
00:05:22
and I said no I don't want to write one and then they commissioned Greger to
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write one. Um, and then it came down to him asking me, "Well, if I do write it,
00:05:36
would you be prepared to talk to me?" And so, well, may as well, if you've got
00:05:41
questions, I'll talk to you, but it's not my book. It's your book. And, uh, I
00:05:45
haven't received any money from it, so it's definitely not my book. But, you
00:05:49
know, it is what it is. And, um, always felt that, you know, if you wanted to know my story, then just go on Google.
00:05:57
It's all there. So, I'm not into bookw writing. I think, you know, a lot of to sell books, people
00:06:07
have to do things that they normally wouldn't do. So, >> so that so that have you read that book?
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>> Uh, not really. No. >> So, would you would you describe it as a great work of fiction?
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>> Uh, well, Greg is a good writer. I think he's the best rugby writer out there.
00:06:24
So, you know, it was an honor to have him to write it. And I I guess it's uh a
00:06:30
reflection on, you know, the group's work that we did during that period of time to have them want to record uh what
00:06:38
happened, but um now I haven't read it. Parts of it I've seen obviously, but I haven't read it.
00:06:46
No. >> So, the book's called The Legacy. Is legacy something you you you think
00:06:50
about? >> Not personally, but for the All Blacks, I do. I think the there is a legacy with
00:06:56
the Olex. There's a an understanding that you have a responsibility to when you enter into that framework
00:07:04
that you you will have a story told about your time there and but the greatest story is the All Blacks
00:07:11
themselves. So, it's team first, individual second, but how do you want that story to read or be told when you
00:07:19
finish? And and and uh you know, New Zealand public's really demanding. They
00:07:23
want a great story to be told. Um, but the unique thing about the All Blacks, I think, is the people within it, uh,
00:07:32
during my time anyway, they all wanted it to be a great story and they all wanted to be better every day. They
00:07:37
worked really hard at it. And um you we had some wonderful players who drove that and um you know people will make
00:07:45
their own opinions whether we were able to be better than we were when we started but I think um
00:07:53
it was a period of rugby where New Zealand could be proud. I think the team and the fans felt like they were united
00:07:59
and together so >> and we had some good results. >> And you're immensely proud of that
00:08:04
period. Yeah, I'm immensely proud of uh the hard work that went into doing it
00:08:10
and um you know the people I worked with and and uh you know how hard they worked
00:08:18
and and the achievements they made, the players, the growth in the players, not just as rugby players but as men and and
00:08:27
women because we had women in the group as well. So everybody grew together and it wasn't always perfect. uh it never is
00:08:34
in life. You make mistakes and >> but if you own those mistakes and and um
00:08:41
you can move on together. So very proud of it. >> There's um a photo from that book, The
00:08:47
Legacy, which I've got um it's a young Steve Hansen. >> I'm just wondering like when you see
00:08:53
that photo, how is the man sitting in front of me today the same? And how is he different to that guy?
00:08:59
Uh well, probably similar but different. As we all get older, we get a little bit smarter or
00:09:08
mature. Some would say I've taken a long time to mature, but um particularly my
00:09:12
wife. But um look, I from a mental side of life, I think I'm a lot stronger than I was back then.
00:09:22
Understood very little. You know, then I was in a hurry. I wanted to you know achieve things and do things and didn't
00:09:33
understand um the importance of you know uh psychology and sport. Um however uh because of that time I became a
00:09:45
better coach probably. >> Takes time doesn't it? >> Oh it does. Yeah. And uh you've been
00:09:52
through it yourself. You know what it's like. It's life brings things to you
00:09:57
that challenge you and you either deal with them really well or or you struggle with them and and then find ways to deal
00:10:05
with them. Well, so >> it's not really uh the struggles that matter. It's it's how you end up dealing
00:10:11
with them. >> Mhm. >> So, you've got many nicknames. Um, one of them is uh, Shag, which um, from what
00:10:20
I can understand, it's like it's it's um, it's an exciting nickname, but it's
00:10:24
quite a boring story. >> It's not that exciting either. Um, >> no, but the mind the when you hear the
00:10:31
nickname Shag, you think, "Oh, maybe he's a roofer back in his younger days."
00:10:34
>> Well, no, we don't want to go there. So, um, no, the story is really boring,
00:10:41
actually. It was Andrew Mertens who's I coached both at club level and uh provincial and so forth. But he uh he
00:10:51
was a young guy uh very smart with a quip and Steve Chu and I were both working with Canterbury at the time and
00:10:58
two Steves didn't work so he just said call him Shag cuz he calls everybody else Shaq. So boring story. H other
00:11:07
nicknames. I don't know if this is an authorized one or not, but this was in
00:11:10
the book. Last word. Is that a nickname? Uh no, there was certainly something people will say. And
00:11:18
uh you know, particularly when I was younger, I I'd want to win everything. And if it was an argument or a
00:11:24
discussion, it would become an argument and I would want to win it. And so I'd
00:11:28
want the last word. I always used to say, well, I can say the last word because I've got the,
00:11:34
you know, I can find the last thing to say. But in the end, you sort of grow up and you work out, well, you're not
00:11:40
wanting anything really. You're only getting the last word cuz everyone's
00:11:42
sick of it or they've left and you're only there talking to yourself. So, but
00:11:48
>> you do have a sharp sharp mind and a sharp tongue. H have you have you ever
00:11:52
lost an argument? >> Oh, lose plenty of time. Yeah, certainly not the boss at home.
00:12:01
>> Okay. And one one more nickname. Um Stanley. >> What's that? Like an old is an alter
00:12:07
ego? Is it a nickname? What is it? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's as of recent times.
00:12:11
And again, that's the competitive side of me. Um good friends of ours down in Monica. She
00:12:18
uh Peanut and and um Duchy Vermuan uh and Peanut name Stanley. She said, "Oh, Stanley's coming
00:12:29
out to play." Um and it stucks and you know, again, it's interesting because
00:12:36
you learn sometimes you can be too competitive and and sometimes it's okay to let other people win. So, but yeah,
00:12:44
Stanley is probably the the one that stuck around the most. >> What does Stanley look like? Is he a Is
00:12:52
he a sore loser? Is he a um is he a confrontational winner? What is he? >> Uh he's not a confrontational winner and
00:12:59
he's not a sore loser. He's just in the fight when the fight's on and then when
00:13:03
it's over, it's over. But, you know, he'll do whatever he has to do to win, I
00:13:07
guess. And yeah, so we have to keep him under control. Are you are you just ruthlessly competitive about everything?
00:13:15
>> It would appear that way. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I've read stories about like numerous
00:13:21
other All Blacks over the years. Like you you hear about someone like say Zan Brookke and had have competitions about
00:13:26
who could make a cup of tea the fastest. So you there'd be two bits of condensation running down a glass pane
00:13:32
and had want to have bets on that. Is that Does that sound familiar? >> Uh yeah. Yeah, I try and avoid making a
00:13:38
cup of tea if I could, but um there's a I play for a golf trophy with a friend of mine um and it came about
00:13:50
because we were playing for five bucks. It was the money wasn't the problem, but
00:13:54
we played into the dark because I wanted to win. Whoever won the last hole won and I kept I'd win or get back to all
00:14:04
square. And I just wouldn't give up until he said, "Oh, for Christ sake, you
00:14:08
just win the hole so we can go." And so he framed it. He framed it. And uh so yeah, it's I just want to win.
00:14:17
Yeah. And I I I I'm not a a person who enters into something to lose. Um, and
00:14:26
it's been, you know, with me since childhood really, I guess. And, uh, at times it
00:14:33
gets in the way. Um, early on, we're a blended family. And early on, uh, I guess playing cards with the kids,
00:14:42
like all of a sudden no one wants to play cards with Steve, so Stanley obviously was out and about then. So,
00:14:49
you know, it's just learning to relax and enjoy it rather than be so competitive.
00:14:56
>> Are you still like that now as a man in your 60s or is it dimmed a bit?
00:15:00
>> Uh, it's probably under control a bit. I don't know if it's dimmed, but it's
00:15:04
control. >> It's still a work on. >> Yeah, it is. >> That's because I used to be like that,
00:15:09
like ruthlessly competitive. And then with things that I had no no reasonable right to be competitive about. Like I
00:15:15
play golf and I'd throw my clubs and I'd throw tantrums and it's like I'm not
00:15:19
Ryan Fox. I'm not Tiger Woods. I've got no right to think that was going to be a
00:15:22
good shot. >> I'm not a I'm not a club thrower or anything like that. Like I don't sulk
00:15:27
about it. I just I'm in the fight, you know, and there's no reason for me to be like that
00:15:35
other than it's about well I I want to say I won and >> I don't know why I'm like that but but I
00:15:43
I understand I am and I understand that at certain times it's got to be controlled but it was okay uh
00:15:51
you know when it really mattered and we needed to win it was a it was a great attribute but at other times
00:15:58
Um, you know, I had to learn that it wasn't about the result, it was about the process early on in my coaching
00:16:04
career. And, you know, was a wonderful thing to learn because once you learn that the process is more important than
00:16:11
the outcome, you then get to focus on the right stuff rather than the outcome. >> I heard a quote from you, I think this
00:16:18
was on another podcast, um, that with most humans, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.
00:16:23
>> Yeah. >> Is that is that what it would be for you? Oh, 100%. You know, um I I can
00:16:29
remember a couple of times even with the the All Blacks when or when coaching once was with
00:16:36
Canterbury and once with the All Blacks and we'd been successful um with Canterbury and I came back and coached
00:16:43
poorly because it was all about the results and ended up having to apologize to the group the next year because I was
00:16:49
the person who was making it too hard for them to be able to to do their job. and I come out come focus and the same
00:16:56
thing happened one season in the all black so one part of the all black season um and once it becomes about
00:17:06
yourself or becomes about the result you just don't lose control of of what you
00:17:11
really need to be doing so >> again had to apologize and >> give yourself an up and get on with it
00:17:18
again you know >> I love those oneliners they where they come from they from your your dad days
00:17:23
There's so many. There's um the one about um you reporters saying that they
00:17:29
never make statues of critics or reporters. >> Um >> that was a that was uh Jim Kay's I think
00:17:37
he >> Oh, no. I've got the Jim K one. You're like Jim, you you've been on TV for 3
00:17:40
minutes and you think your [ __ ] don't stick. >> Yeah. Well, that was that came from the
00:17:45
statue on during a period of time when I was assistant coach and uh we um we were struggling to win line out
00:17:57
ball and I was in charge of line outs. But people didn't understand. They just
00:18:02
look at the result and they don't understand that if you've only got two
00:18:04
locks, it's pretty easy to shut down your line out if you only got two jumpers. And at that stage, we had two
00:18:09
jumpers. cuz we had Jerry Collins uh who wasn't a line out forward, didn't
00:18:15
want to be a line out forward. Um and we had Richie just learning to jump and Rodney just so just learn to jump. So
00:18:22
and South Africa had uh Bakies and and Victor who were very very good line out fors anyway. They shut they were
00:18:28
shutting us down all over the place to the point where I think Bies have won Tess and and Hamilton. They won the
00:18:35
first three lineups. We won the the fourth one and and um Peter Davilius intercepted a pass between Mar and
00:18:44
Conrad and scored under the bar and and Buckyy's run back and went past Victor.
00:18:49
He said, "Oh, I think we should let them win some more lineups." So anyway, uh we were getting heavily
00:18:56
criticized and with all of us, the players were and and as was I and I didn't I don't mind criticism of myself
00:19:04
because you know I can deal with that but I don't like them particularly when
00:19:09
they don't know the full story and they don't want to hear the full story.
00:19:13
However, um went to this press conference and something about critics came up from Jim
00:19:19
Kay's and Andrew Chev was there too. Both of whom I now get on really well with and I said, "Well, Jack Gibson, the
00:19:27
old league coach said, you know, they don't build statues for critics." And
00:19:31
then Jim Case couldn't help himself. He he goes, "Do you think they'll build one
00:19:35
for you?" And I said, "No, I don't. I don't think they'll build one for you
00:19:39
either, Jim." And walked off. And Z said something as well which I didn't forget
00:19:45
for a while. And and uh >> what did he say? >> Oh, he said something. Can you He asked
00:19:50
me if we were bringing people in to help. And we'd had a lot of people in. What we needed to do was just get better
00:19:56
at what we were trying to do and it takes time. >> And he said, "Could I look myself in the
00:20:02
mirror?" And of course he had a bed. And I said, "You have a shave every day."
00:20:05
Said, "You know what about yourself?" And so it was like a boxing match
00:20:10
really. And of course the pens mightier than the sword. So I came a distant second. But I
00:20:19
uh carried it for a while and I think I let loose at Jimmy and Mar at one training run. He it just went
00:20:29
left when it should have probably gone nowhere but and he cpped it. So, and then after that, that's when I went and
00:20:36
saw Fraser >> and we had a cup of coffee with uh well, I had a co coffee with Jimmy and we had
00:20:44
a talked our way through it and anyway, we >> got where we got to in the end.
00:20:49
>> Yeah, I was going to I was going to um get to that later in the piece, but
00:20:53
since we're there, we may as well get on to it now. So, um you're seeing Ian
00:20:56
Fraser um who's a respected journalist and former CEO of TVNZ. Did that um like
00:21:02
was someone higher up than you in the NZ? Are you were they like Steve you need to work on your relationship with
00:21:07
the media or is it something that you thought was necessary? >> Uh I knew that
00:21:13
the media and I weren't getting on well. Um I was fighting them and you know they
00:21:21
they were having cracks and then I' I'd come back out rather than being informative with them and and um
00:21:28
trusting them. I I wasn't. And so it was, you know, it was tip for tat really. And as I said before, like they
00:21:36
get the last say cuz they get it's in print and everybody believes it whether
00:21:41
it's true or not. Um so I knew I had to go and do something especially if I was
00:21:45
going to become the head coach. And um it was around that time I thought well who will I go and see? And
00:21:53
I always admired Ian. He was from Otago as same as myself. my mogill boy. So, we
00:22:01
hit it off really well. Um, and we spent a lot of time together and and uh our relationship became really close
00:22:11
and I trust him a lot and you know we would talk our way through things and but you know his big message was just be
00:22:20
yourself and and be as honest as you can be and then if you can't be honest then tell them
00:22:26
you can't be honest about that and it's not something we need we can talk about.
00:22:30
But was it was it about softening the edges or >> Well, that happened um more
00:22:39
as a result of the change of the mindset really. No, and again, I'd met Ian probably need to explain that a little
00:22:48
bit. I met Ian through a coaching accelerator course I was on that was run by New Zealand High Performance
00:22:54
and had done a a um a session with the whole group. Um and uh you know I thought well here's a guy that's talking
00:23:04
a bit of sense here. So that's where we tapped into it. But I think the mindset
00:23:09
was the biggest thing that you know they're not the enemy. They're actually
00:23:13
a group of people who are there to pass on the messages that you want them to pass on to the public. And
00:23:24
so once I started thinking about what's the messages I want for the public to
00:23:28
hear regardless of the question they asked, I just used to answer the question that I wanted to answer.
00:23:33
>> And sometimes I would ask questions I didn't want to answer. So, I just go
00:23:37
back to, okay, well, here's the two or three things that I really want to get
00:23:42
people to understand about this team or this player or or this decision. So, I just go there and and invariably
00:23:51
they would leave the question they'd ask because I'd given them something that
00:23:55
was better for them to write about anyway. >> Was it was that a hard change? see seems
00:24:01
like quite a significant sort of almost personality change in a way. >> Uh I think it might have been harder if
00:24:09
I'd still been the assistant coach, but because I took over as head coach, you
00:24:14
sort of it's quite easy to mold your own media plan. So >> um and it's easier to lead that than to
00:24:22
follow it. M >> you know um there's times when there would be things I would maybe want
00:24:29
to say but I couldn't say because we're allowed to say whereas when you're the
00:24:36
at the top of the tree you can say what you want to say >> within reason. >> Speaking of press conferences there it's
00:24:43
it's unrelated to the media in a way but um it's just like a sort of viral moment
00:24:47
that I saw on TikTok. Um and I wanted to know if this was um a slip or deliberate. So it's uh I think it's you
00:24:54
Richie Mccor maybe Ian Fost on the other side of you and there's you struggle
00:24:58
with the airpiece >> I don't know what it was and Richie's trying to um fiddle with your um your
00:25:04
dial to get the volume up and you you you you drop an Fbomb in a press conference. Was that um for comedic
00:25:11
purposes or was that a slip or >> Oh, no. I think it was just reality and and uh it's quite a descriptive word.
00:25:19
So, I probably used it when I shouldn't have, but luckily enough, we had enough uh
00:25:26
goodwill in the media at that point to be able to cope with it. >> Uh it it's it's a really good moment.
00:25:30
Like, it's just so you just don't see an All Black uh head coach dropping an
00:25:34
Fbomb at a press conference. So, um, you know, there was something really endearing about it.
00:25:39
>> Well, we just tried to be as natural as we could. >> And, you know, like the whole aim of
00:25:46
what Ian and I wanted to do from a media point of view was to just be a normal New Zealander.
00:25:53
And, uh, you know, that's I guess I I it's probably why I prefer Steve rather than
00:26:00
Sir Steve. You know, just we're just normal people. I just happen to be okay
00:26:05
at coaching a footy team and very lucky to be able to coach a very very good footy team with a lot of other good uh
00:26:13
staff. >> I I've had a few sers on on the podcast. Um you you corrected me, told me just
00:26:20
Steve will do. Um Sir Peter Beck said exactly the same thing. Just call me Pete. Um I think Sir Peter Leech is the
00:26:26
only one that insisted on on being called sir. Uh that it's quite an honor though, right? Like getting a
00:26:35
getting a nighthood for for doing what you love and doing it at such a high level.
00:26:40
>> It is. And when you get the letter, you know, I know I spent a lot of time um
00:26:50
actually making the decision. Am I going to accept this or not? >> Really?
00:26:55
>> Yeah. And it wasn't until my wife and Ian actually pointed out, well, it's not just about
00:27:06
accepting it for yourself. And once I got my head around that, it was easy to say yes because
00:27:16
yeah, okay, you're the head coach and but you're really only one part of the
00:27:23
wheel spoke. there's many spokes and there's many parts of it that make the
00:27:28
team become what it was. Um, and I just had the privilege of leading that group. Um, so on once I got
00:27:36
my head around, well, actually I'm I'm representing them by saying yes. Um, you know, it was easy, but up until
00:27:44
then I had, to be fair, I just struggle with it a week. >> Yeah. Do you do you have like a like a
00:27:50
man cave or an office at home with things in like your like your metal the knife metal or
00:27:56
>> Well, we got a a man cave with a bar and and uh and a few things in it and the office is just
00:28:04
off that and my wife actually did the office and there's a few rugby things in
00:28:09
that. Yeah, there's a bit of memorabilia there but >> like what? >> Uh there's a bit of horse racing stuff.
00:28:15
Uh we're lucky enough to own a very good raceh horse called Nature Strip. Uh
00:28:18
there's some photos of of moments. Um now the two World Cups photos are up there. Uh there's a rugby jersey that
00:28:27
the team gave gave me when I left. >> Yeah, >> that's about it, I think.
00:28:33
>> Yeah. >> Lots of photos of the kids. >> How do you feel when you see that stuff
00:28:36
now? Like I feel like you're a man that's um got like got a growth mindset.
00:28:39
So even though you're in your mid60s now, you're still like looking forward
00:28:42
to what's next. Um you do you do you allow yourself reflective moments and >> uh yeah I think it's important to
00:28:49
reflect every now and again. Um you know and like you can reflect easy on the stuff that got away like I think
00:28:58
2019 got away from us. One bad week cost us the an opportunity to be in the final
00:29:05
and everyone said we played poorly in 290 but we didn't. We beat three sides
00:29:10
that were number one in the world going into the World Cup or as a at the end of
00:29:14
the World Cup. Ireland, Wales, and South Africa who who won it. But we didn't
00:29:21
have a great England week and and and we didn't have a great performance because
00:29:25
of it. And and I I reflect a lot on that week. What could I have done different?
00:29:31
Could have made some different selections. Um ratty ratty ra. And then I've got to
00:29:36
bring myself back to, okay, well, you got one week wrong, but maybe you got a few other ones right. So,
00:29:44
you know, but that's the competitive side again, too, cuz you want to win everything. And the All Blacks are good
00:29:50
because they want to be they hurt when they lose >> and you know, the staff are no
00:29:56
different. some some other um guests on the podcast, Shane Cameron for example, he
00:30:03
he told me he thought about the loss to David Tu every day for like seven years.
00:30:07
>> Yeah. >> Uh Dion Nash, he said sometimes in the shower, even now he'll think about you
00:30:12
things that happened like 20 years ago on the cricket pitch. Um how often do you think about 2019?
00:30:19
>> Pretty regular >> really. >> Yeah. as in oh probably once a month or you know if
00:30:26
you're talking about things or you know World Cup comes around you think about it a bit more often but you
00:30:35
know I'm at peace with it as I said just a minute ago I think if you can acknowledge to yourself oh
00:30:42
okay we could have done that week better and here's the things I would have done
00:30:45
better and and um then you can acknowledge yourself. Oh, actually, but that was one week out of I
00:30:54
don't know how many years I was there for, so can't remember, but it was a lot
00:30:58
of weeks and we must have got a lot of weeks right cuz we >> we only dropped 10 games in that whole
00:31:04
period. So, okay. Well, is it the end of the world? No. But would you have liked to have won
00:31:11
it? Yes. But did we do okay? Yeah, we did. So, and then I move on and don't think about
00:31:18
it for a while. I I think think members of the public and people listening to this will
00:31:23
probably be um yeah pleased to to hear that it still hurts you to a degree. You know what I mean?
00:31:28
>> Yeah. Look, I think it's a misconception around uh I think the fans don't really
00:31:37
understand how much it does hurt people. And I remember 207 like that was horrific to get knocked out in the
00:31:45
quarterfinals when we were the best team in the world at at that point. and we just
00:31:52
didn't go to that World Cup understanding what it takes to win one, but losing it created,
00:32:00
you know, a a uh a learning opportunity which allowed us to win two after that. So,
00:32:07
>> but you you know, people would say to me, "Oh, you realize, you know, I went
00:32:12
over to watch that and you guys went there." And I'd think I just quietly shake my
00:32:17
head and think to myself, well, yeah, I'm pretty bloody keen to be there ourselves, mate. So,
00:32:23
>> yeah. Sorry for ruining your holiday. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You still got a
00:32:26
holiday, but we got one we didn't want. >> Um, you you mentioned um the horse
00:32:32
racing thing before in your horse uh nature strip. So, I think now's probably
00:32:35
a good time to go back to the early years. So, um yeah, young Steve Hansen from Mosgill. Um you wanted to be a
00:32:41
jockey. >> I did. I uh my father was a um owner trainer. We had a dairy farm. Um he had
00:32:52
many jobs but then he became a farmer and dairy farmer there for a while. And um we trained horses and I was small
00:33:00
enough in those days to ride them. And I still uh think sometimes in a different life I might have ended
00:33:09
up being a horse trainer. Uh cuz I just I love the animal. I love the the the racing scene and the people in it and um
00:33:18
but yeah, jockey would have been good. >> Just sort of outgrew that, Dom, I not
00:33:23
sure what happened, but >> not you. Could you be um like a sulky? >> No. Do you still need to be little for
00:33:30
that? >> I could have done that, but that didn't I like riding them rather than sitting
00:33:35
behind them. >> Yeah. So, your dad your dad de um sounds like he was an amazing man. Uh I I heard
00:33:42
a quote from Mike Cron, the um scrum guru, saying that sometimes when he shuts his eyes, um he could swear like
00:33:48
you were de. Is that where the the oneliners came from? >> Oh, he's pretty good with oneliners. Our
00:33:55
whole his whole side of uh our family are comedians, I guess, but u sharp and with
00:34:05
the oneliners or we ditties and he had heaps of them. So, um, growing up with him, we spent a lot of time, uh,
00:34:14
together and, um, I guess it just rubbed off and >> Mhm. >> Chrono's not too bad with oneliners
00:34:21
himself. So, him and dad spent a lot of time together, too. Um, once we moved to
00:34:27
Christ Church and they did a lot of coaching together. >> So, yeah. Know, >> what was the relationship with with your
00:34:34
dad and Andrew Mertens? I read a story somewhere that like Mertz would just go around and visit him and have cups of
00:34:39
tea or a beer. >> Oh, everybody used to go around and see him. >> Is that right? Was he quite like quite
00:34:43
an identity? >> I don't know if he was an identity. He was just somebody that people were
00:34:48
endeared to. Um he he loved talking about footy. He he was a man who was before his time and his thinking about
00:34:57
the game. Um he challenged you as a rugby player or as a coach to think about things in a bigger sense than just in
00:35:09
the one moment or uh you know and like I we our dairy farm was seven and a half miles from Mosgill. So if we
00:35:22
played a home game, I got a 7 and 1/2 mile ride home in the car getting talked to about how I could have done this or
00:35:28
what could I have done or how could we have done something different or if it was a game in Dened and it was twice as
00:35:36
long. So I got twice as long in the car. So and at the time you don't appreciate how
00:35:42
much teaching he's giving you. You you're you're probably thinking, you
00:35:46
know, he's just you can't do anything right. So you become a little bit victimlike, but you
00:35:53
as you reflect on it later and as you get older and mature, you understand, well actually he's challenging me to
00:35:58
think here. And that's what he did all his coaching. And he didn't give you the
00:36:03
answer. You had to find the answer yourself. And it was probably something I took with me right through my own
00:36:09
coaching. Like I wanted players to be able to think for themselves as opposed to me telling them.
00:36:15
>> Actually, that's something a lot of people say about you. like they have a
00:36:17
conversation with you and you want them to figure out the answer rather than you
00:36:21
just like tell them how it is. >> Well, if they figure it out, then they own it.
00:36:25
>> No, you know, to me it was always a better way than like we're doing this and and not and
00:36:32
you not knowing why we're doing it or how we do it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
00:36:37
>> So, um your first job freezing work inspector. >> Meat inspector. Yeah. Um I had a job for
00:36:44
6 months before that which was at a place called Spotlight Poles in Hornby and it was horrific. It was the worst
00:36:50
job ever but it was until such time as I could was after finishing school and and
00:36:56
joining the meet inspector I had to wait um 6 months sorry to join. So I did that
00:37:02
and then went to the freezing works as meat inspector was great. um some wonderful wonderful characters in the
00:37:08
freezing works and it was a great learning uh curve cuz you just didn't judge people at all. You had to f treat
00:37:16
them as you found them and everyone has their own story and you don't know their
00:37:20
story until you take time to work them out. So there was some good men there. >> How did you not stay there? I'm I'm just
00:37:30
thinking um I had some friends that left school at the same time as me and there
00:37:33
was a freezing works just outside of Palmerston North Long Freezing Works and they uh if you were unskilled you could
00:37:38
go there and it was quite highly paid work. >> Yeah, it was great. >> A lot of a lot of my mates I say a lot
00:37:43
like three of them end up getting sort of stuck there >> um because the money was good and Yeah.
00:37:48
How did you have the drive to pull yourself out of that and do something else? >> Uh wasn't so much a drive to pull myself
00:37:53
out of it because I I loved it. I I thought you know this it was a university in its own right.
00:38:00
It was University of Life. So I I don't see myself having to pull myself out of
00:38:04
it. But >> what changed was I decided that >> um I went overseas to play footy and
00:38:12
when I came back uh I just went in a different direction. So, and then I wanted to I did some sales repping and
00:38:21
um worked for a a company called Smith Klein and Nordon, which was a drug company selling drugs to vets like
00:38:30
drenches and and um dog vaccines, cat vaccines. So, you and that in itself was another learning
00:38:39
curve because you had to I'm not a great cold caller. I warm up to people, but you had to
00:38:45
learn to actually find ways to to break down the barriers to be able to even get
00:38:50
in to speak to the vet, let alone before you got, you know, once you get in there. Otherwise, you couldn't sell
00:38:56
anything. So, that that was wonderful. And then again, I went back overseas and wanted to play footie overseas. I played
00:39:03
in France and then I came back and uh I thought, right, oh, well, I'd always
00:39:09
thought about the police force, but I didn't want to join when I was young. I
00:39:12
wanted to join when I was older and and had a few more life skills and so I ended up joining that and
00:39:20
um initially got rejected cuz I had uh um melanoma on my back and they didn't
00:39:26
want me. They thought I was going to die. So we uh convinced them that wasn't going
00:39:30
to be the case. So then got in and and uh I worked there for six years. Then I became a coach.
00:39:38
>> Best and worst days on the job as a police constable. Uh best days are uh you know when you're helping people.
00:39:48
Worst days are when you know you've got to go and talk to people who have lost
00:39:52
somebody in their life and it's not easy. So >> tough. >> Yeah. Uh what did you learn about human
00:39:59
behavior in that role that you were able to take into coaching? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. Um
00:40:08
obviously a number of things. one reinforced what I'd learned in the freezing works that everyone's got their
00:40:15
own story. So don't don't be too judgmental. Don't rock into something and and and
00:40:23
not know the facts before you make big decisions about who's right and who's
00:40:27
wrong. Um because I was a little older, I knew and understood that people make mistakes. So
00:40:35
again, don't be black and white. there's always a little bit of gray in life and and um
00:40:42
so be a little bit empathetic um and guiding rather than forceful. And the last one was, you know, if you go in at
00:40:52
a 10, then it's only going to stay at 10. So, you're better to go in at a one
00:40:56
and and let it escalate if it has to. But, um yeah, so calm. Just stay calm and we'll see where it goes.
00:41:05
Um, why didn't you stay there and go through the the ranks? >> Oh, well, professional rugby came about
00:41:12
and uh I got the opportunity to coach and for me that was more exciting than being
00:41:18
a policeman. >> Mhm. Yeah. Where where here is this sort of mid to late 90s?
00:41:22
>> Yeah, late 90. So I went in and so it's about 96 I left I think six years there. today.
00:41:34
>> Yeah, I think you sort of touched upon this um in the beginning of the chat. Um
00:41:38
or yeah, I've definitely heard about in another interview you've done. Um in
00:41:42
your second year as Canterbury coach, you described yourself as a prick. >> Yeah. Well, that was the period I was
00:41:47
talking about before where I become outcome focused and and really coached poorly because it cuz I was too
00:41:53
demanding and >> there wasn't a lot of uh care of the athlete or or the approach was was wrong
00:42:03
and it was a good learning curve and it read its head again later in life but only the once so and I managed to see it
00:42:10
a lot quicker so dealt with it. Who who was who was in the team then that we'
00:42:15
we'd know of uh when you called yourself a pro? Was Razer in the team then? >> Yeah. Yeah. Razer was there. Back at her
00:42:20
and Marshy merch very good sort. >> Yeah. How would they reflect on that? So
00:42:25
say if Razer Robertson was here and say Kieran Reed um you're both you know fantastic guys who had you at very very
00:42:33
different stages of your career. >> Like what would what would their respective views be about your coaching
00:42:38
style? >> Uh not too sure. Oh man, you probably have to ask him. Razer, I know.
00:42:45
Ra Razer was uh Razer, as we all know. He's a little different and >> Yeah. What was he like as a as he
00:42:56
>> as a player? He would be just 100 miles an hour and no control. We had another
00:43:03
player at the time called Angus Gardner who was a very very good player and they
00:43:08
both played seven and um so some games we would start uh Angus ahead of Razer because Razer's
00:43:17
energy was better coming off the bench and then other days it would be you know you start Razer because he he needed to
00:43:25
learn how to start a game and control himself >> and probably how I communicated that to
00:43:31
um didn't press his buttons, you know, and uh one day he finally told me. He
00:43:38
said, "Well, Steve, that's not helping me." And I said, "What? You know,
00:43:41
Christ, why don't you tell me?" He waited. And he he knew I was pissed off.
00:43:46
And he said, "Oh, I shouldn't have told you cuz you're pissed off." I'm not
00:43:49
pissed off you told me. I'm pissed off you've waited 6 months to tell me cuz
00:43:53
we've wasted 6 months of you learning. And so, you know, it was a good learning
00:43:59
curve that everybody's not the same and everybody needs a a different button
00:44:05
sometimes than than just this one. >> M >> and some need a cuddle, some need a a
00:44:11
kick up the bum and and some, you know, can cope with both >> and so forth. So,
00:44:18
uh what would Rita say? Rita would probably say, "Yeah, he's not too bad at
00:44:24
doing that, but you know, sometimes he doesn't get it right." And and I'd agree
00:44:29
with him. Like, you don't get it right all the time as a coach. >> You don't get it all the right all the
00:44:33
time as a parent. Um, but >> that's life, isn't it? >> Well, yeah. And it comes from a place of
00:44:38
love and care and and wanting uh the best for the athlete or your child. and and sometimes
00:44:48
it hurts. You know, they don't like it, but you're not there to be their best
00:44:52
friend. You're there to be their coach. And and their job is to allow themselves
00:44:58
to be coached. It's the ones that don't want to be coached that are hard to to
00:45:03
help. >> Mhm. Um Yeah. When was it that you realized like vulnerability and and leadership
00:45:10
and coaching was a strength and not necessarily a weakness? I'm not sure really. I think it's just something that
00:45:17
I learned through my own life experiences, both in the feas, both as a policeman. Rugby, you could, you know,
00:45:25
just seeing how people responded. Um, and I went through a rugby career that had lots of ups and downs in it
00:45:34
myself. I mean, uh, back in my playing career, you only had 21 uh people in the squad. uh they didn't carry extra people
00:45:44
and I was always the 22nd guy. So I was in and out of that Canterbury team a lot
00:45:49
and um under Alex and was a coach and he was a brilliant coach and a great tactician. Um
00:45:58
however, it wasn't until I probably became a coach myself that I worked out, well
00:46:06
it's not because you're not good enough, it's just cuz there's not enough room.
00:46:11
and and if they're going to carry an extra person, he has to be able to either do
00:46:16
that job or do the job you did. And for the team, it was better to have that job. And usually came down to a guy
00:46:24
called Wayne Burley and myself. And Bills could play first five or second five. So we needed a cover for Smithy.
00:46:31
So a lot of the time you don't learn that as a a player until later in your life, but you get
00:46:38
frustrated by it. So learning those things also helped me understand okay when I took up coaching I said to myself
00:46:47
right how do I want to treat these people how to and I always came back to I would want to treat them how I wanted
00:46:55
to be treated as a player and I could accept not being picked but just tell me the real reasons
00:47:02
and and um and just treat them like people don't treat them like they're
00:47:08
just a number and and back in the day, you know, I had a lot of coaches who who were from that generation. It wasn't
00:47:18
their fault. >> That's that they they were dictated and you just did as your adult.
00:47:24
>> Yeah. >> And you didn't question. You didn't challenge. You did certainly didn't want
00:47:28
to know why, but you did, but you didn't ask why. And as coaching has grown and
00:47:34
and the generations have changed, you know, we got generation, what are we up to now,
00:47:40
>> Zed? I think so. No, Millennials, I don't know what it's hard to keep up.
00:47:45
>> Yeah. And they're all different and they all need things differently. But
00:47:48
>> at the end of the day though, they still have the same desires as we all had.
00:47:54
Whether you're a boomer or whatever it was before the boomers or what you know
00:47:57
everyone has the same desire and that's to be successful >> and and you know how how you teach them
00:48:04
to do that or how you help them to do that might be subtly different and that's probably art of coaching but
00:48:11
along the way >> you find that if you're vulnerable you work out well okay they trust you more
00:48:19
>> and and doesn't hurt to tell other people your story cuz you want to know
00:48:24
theirs. So, it's got to be a two-way thing. >> Yeah. I I I've been doing this podcast
00:48:29
for 3 years now and I've sort of found that it's um I call it like a vulnerability exchange. So, there's some
00:48:35
people that I I can just sit back and open, you know, ask a question and they'll open up. Other people are a bit
00:48:39
more difficult. So, in those cases, I sort of give a bit more of myself away and
00:48:44
>> um it allows people to open up. >> Um I've heard so many so many wonderful
00:48:49
stories about you. The studio we're sitting in now, it's a good mate of mine, Andy Row. It's called Red N Studio
00:48:53
in Christ Church just next door. He does a podcast with Justin Marshall called um
00:48:57
Gbrands, Good Bad Rugby New Zealand. Um Justin Marshall told a story about you recently. Um I don't know if you
00:49:03
remember the story about him uh not being selected. I think it was for a Crusaders game against the Brumies and
00:49:09
he was sulking on the bus. >> Yeah. No, it wasn't the Brumies. I think
00:49:13
it was South Africa. But he definitely was sulking on the bus. Yeah. And he wouldn't get off and
00:49:18
it was embarrassing for him. And I think Robbie tried to get him off and he he said, "No, I'm not getting off." And was
00:49:24
reading his book. And so I went on and just said, "Look, mate, I don't care if
00:49:28
you get off the bus or not. Please yourself." But there's a group of men
00:49:32
out there that have a lot of respect for you. And every minute and every page that you turn over in this bus is
00:49:39
they're losing respect for you. So you please yourself, but I'm going >> turned around and he said, "Oh, hang on.
00:49:44
I'm coming." So, >> so it would have been just as easy for you and understandable to say, "Get off
00:49:49
this [ __ ] bus, >> you know." And >> well, with Marie, that wasn't going to
00:49:53
work. Like, uh, a very competitive man, Marie, and he's he's stubborn. It's But that's okay.
00:50:04
That's what makes him who he is. And so, you know, it would have been a waste of
00:50:08
time cuz he he just wouldn't have responded to that. So, I wanted him off the bus, but I didn't want him to know I
00:50:14
wanted him off the bus. I wanted him to make that decision himself for the right
00:50:18
reasons. And the reasons were, as I outlaid them, man, get off and I'll respect you if you
00:50:27
That's a lot of um emotional EQ on your part. >> Yeah, >> I guess so. Yeah.
00:50:34
>> Yeah. Um yeah, there's another story on that same podcast, G Brands from Aaron
00:50:37
Major. Um you teaching him how to do a tie up. And then and then say saying them he should look nice cuz his nana's
00:50:44
in the grand stand or something. >> Oh, I can't remember about the nana
00:50:49
story, but it would have been I definitely taught him how to tie a tie and that was club rugby days and
00:50:57
uh started that with you. We wanted the boys to be look tidy and respect the club and and
00:51:05
the team they played for. So we had we'd teach them how to tie their tie and if
00:51:11
they couldn't tie one we'd just take a bit more time and teach them and finally
00:51:14
they'd get get it and he was the same he hadn't he couldn't tie his tie I think
00:51:19
it was in the canary team actually NPC team and took the time to teach him but >> it's not a hard thing to teach so
00:51:27
>> yeah but it's not yeah it's not really your job as like a rugby coach but
00:51:30
you're teaching these these boys how to be men and you're teaching them some
00:51:33
really good life skills. >> Yeah, I think that is your job. you reckon? >> I think look rugby is one part of your
00:51:40
job and you teach them to be good rugby players, but uh I think your your influence on the people you touch
00:51:53
as a coach is way more widespread than just teach them to play rugby. You know, you have an influence
00:52:00
that can teach them to be better human beings. Um, and you know, I take a lot of pride
00:52:06
out of looking at the achievements. A lot of people I've had a small part to
00:52:11
play with as a coach and seeing how well they're doing away from rugby. you know,
00:52:16
rug rugby at the end of the day is just well, it is a living for a lot of people
00:52:21
now, but it's also it's a sport which uh there's always going to be a winner and
00:52:26
a loser and there's going to be moments where there's great success, but there's
00:52:31
also going to be downtimes and but life's forever. And if you can be a good human being and
00:52:38
treat people well and and understand yourself better, then I think you're going to have an influence on other
00:52:46
people and you know society becomes a better place. >> Yeah. But it must be nice for you to
00:52:52
hear like these stories being retold on podcast like 25 years on or whatever it is like that's a huge impact you've had
00:52:59
on someone's life. Oh, >> it's nice to hear you say that. they've
00:53:03
said that and and you know I don't need to hear it. >> Um I just need to do it and and I know
00:53:13
that like even now I'm coaching up in in uh Japan and the men up there we're
00:53:20
still doing still one of the things that I pride myself on doing is making sure that we're not just a rugby team. We're
00:53:27
more than that. M >> and and you know the best gift you can give another human being is value them
00:53:37
>> and and value them enough to to help steer them in the right direction and in
00:53:42
doing so you try and steer yourself there too. >> Mhm. >> You know, we don't always go in the
00:53:47
right direction all the time. >> But if we try, then we're we're doing
00:53:53
okay. >> Yeah. Um, one of the players um, in your team in Japan is um, Aaron Smith.
00:54:00
>> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah. I listened to a podcast last week that, um, he was on a couple of years
00:54:07
ago and, uh, he talked about you in great length. Um, there was a couple of things which I thought was really cool.
00:54:12
Um, when the big scandal happened in 2016, which we don't need to get into it
00:54:16
all because, uh, that's on the internet if anyone wants to read it. Um he said
00:54:21
something like um after that you called him like once a week. >> Yeah. Was that as a as a mate or a boss?
00:54:30
>> I just was another human being and I knew that he was suffering and I knew
00:54:36
that uh he and Tegan were going through a really tough time and uh you know you can't pretend to care
00:54:43
about people. you've actually got to act in a way that shows them that you do
00:54:47
care about them and take uh too much of an effort to have to pick the phone up. I mean, that's a
00:54:54
pretty easy thing to do. So, I wanted to make sure that he was okay. I knew he was struggling a lot and um just
00:55:01
checking in to make sure he's I'd do that with anybody >> that I knew and cared about.
00:55:07
>> Yeah, cuz I mean it's a reality of life, isn't it? and [ __ ] up at some point.
00:55:10
But not not not all of us have our indiscretions, you know, plastered over the front page for days and days on end.
00:55:16
But why didn't you throw him to the wolves at the time? >> Why would you throw him to the walls?
00:55:22
And like he's a human being who's made a mistake. >> Uh he didn't do anything that was
00:55:29
uh legally wrong. >> Yeah. morally you could you could question mark it certainly but
00:55:36
>> uh I look at the rugby boys our rugby family as a family and sometimes you
00:55:47
don't like the behavior but you still love them you still care about them and
00:55:52
if it was your son what what would you want to do >> and so that's how I treated it and uh
00:56:00
the important thing was not what he did. It was okay. The important thing was how
00:56:05
he dealt with it and how he responded and and uh how he and his family got through it. That was what was important.
00:56:16
Um, you know, and to me, my job as his rugby coach was to support him to get through that, uh, a with a learning
00:56:27
experience, b with causing too many scars that were going to cause more problems in the future.
00:56:36
>> Yeah. I've even heard him publicly, thank you for helping him become a man.
00:56:40
Is is that um connected to the the saying that I've heard you use on numerous occasions, if you can't change
00:56:44
the man, change the man. Uh no the that saying is about our job as coaches as leaders of teams is to first of all
00:56:58
um try and change them. You know like it's easy just to say no I'm not picking up
00:57:06
because he's got this problem or that problem or he does this or he does that.
00:57:11
particularly when you've got the talent that we have in this country. But if you've got an athlete that's got all
00:57:19
the ingredients and okay, he doesn't he's selfish. As opposed to putting the team first,
00:57:26
he's putting himself first, then okay, let let's look at this and see if we can
00:57:30
change it. Because sometimes the way we are is the way we've been dealt the cards we've been
00:57:37
dealt in life and and we're a reflection on that and we don't know why. We just
00:57:44
see what we get at the end. But the challenge is he he may not know he's selfish and uh
00:57:52
you know if you can teach him to be selfless um then you have this great talent. So
00:58:00
why would you just chuck it away without trying to change? And but if you try and change them and they
00:58:06
don't want to be coached and they don't want to change, then then you have to
00:58:10
change them. >> So that's where that comes from. >> Well, um yeah, Aaron definitely like
00:58:16
repaid your investment in him, didn't he? >> Well, he certainly did. He played
00:58:21
wonderful rugby for the blacks, but I I think uh by and large he's grown up a
00:58:26
bit. Um, none of us are perfect. >> Yeah. And we're all work works in progress. Like there's never Yeah. You
00:58:34
never reach that summit, eh? There's always another mountain to climb. Should
00:58:37
should all blacks be seen as role models? >> Uh, well, it's a tricky one, isn't it?
00:58:42
Because they are, whether they should be or shouldn't be. Um, and the challenge is within that is when the
00:58:56
scrutinized like the one thing that is constant when you're in the All Blacks
00:59:00
is the scrutiny that you're going to come under. There's always pressure and
00:59:04
and you know, you see many times in the media ex all black in trouble. There's
00:59:10
not ex you know see ex plumber or ex blah blah blah. So that's the tough side of being an all
00:59:19
black. You know, the good side is that you're if you've been successful, then
00:59:24
there's, you know, there's all black currency that allows you to be able to
00:59:27
do some things that other people probably don't get the opportunity to see or do. However, um because of that,
00:59:36
you are a role model. People look at you and want you to be perfect, but no one is perfect. There's, you know, it's
00:59:43
life's just not like that. Um, and for me it's not about the how many mistakes you make. It's how you respond
00:59:54
to the mistake. Um, do you own it? Uh, do you learn from it? Um, you know, if you're making 10
01:00:03
mistakes and they're all the same one, you know, then, you know, when we're not
01:00:10
making much progress. Um, but if you're making mistakes because you're immature or because of something
01:00:19
in your background or your past that drives you in that direction, then our job uh is to try and help you
01:00:29
>> understand why you're making them and steer you in the right direction to be
01:00:33
able to get the help for it. >> Yeah. It's like that saying you learn more from you know your fails than your
01:00:39
wins and your failure is a stepping stone to success. >> Well, if you keep stepping up eventually
01:00:45
you'll be successful. >> You know you can't perseverance can't
01:00:49
cope with >> with uh failure can't cope with perseverance. That's the saying I think.
01:00:55
>> Yeah. Um what are the non-negotiable traits of a great leader? uh that he puts the organization ahead
01:01:06
of himself. Uh he's able to have the 8% conversations that most people don't
01:01:12
want to have. >> 8% conversations. >> Yeah. Well, 92% of the conversations we
01:01:17
can all have, they're easy. >> But the eight 8% are the tough ones. >> Mhm.
01:01:23
>> Uh that you don't want to have, you know, you have to have them cuz you
01:01:26
care, I don't want to do this. I I need to talk to him, but we don't. >> Mhm. Um,
01:01:32
and when you feel like that, that's the one you have to have. Um, you've got to
01:01:37
have care and and empathy for the people that work with you and and you're the
01:01:45
climate setter, you know, and when you're not leading well, it's invariably
01:01:50
the the thermometer is off because everything's too hot or or it's too cold.
01:02:00
Um, so you know, check yourself before you go into meetings. No matter what's
01:02:05
happened before, people don't care >> when you come into that meeting that
01:02:10
that's who you are. So, and there's been times, you know, I can remember uh with
01:02:16
the All Blacks that my thermometer got too hot and I I was short and grumpy and because I was thinking about the outcome
01:02:25
and it wasn't until I reflected back on that and and got some home truth from a
01:02:31
couple of people who were honest enough to tell me that, yeah, well, you're right. You had to change. So,
01:02:38
um, they're pretty much, you know, and everyone talks about their culture, but
01:02:43
you got to try and live it the best you can from the top down, not the bottom up. Uh, again, you don't always get it
01:02:49
right. Like, try and be on time for meetings. And if you're not, then own it
01:02:54
and and put your hand up and, you know, but just don't be late all the time. I I
01:03:01
had a story about that. Did um he another previous podcast guest uh Kevin Mameo did he um did he give you a public
01:03:08
dressing down at one point for being late to a meeting? >> He did. It was good.
01:03:14
>> Where that seems so unlikely by the way like he you it's hard to hard to think
01:03:18
of a more lovely man than Kevin Mamu. So what what happens? You walk into a >> I was late. I was 2 minutes late uh to a
01:03:26
meeting and he and he just stood up and said, "Steve, it's not good enough.
01:03:29
You're late." And I said, "Thanksg, right, I am." And and why I said it was
01:03:35
good was because every ass in the chair that was in the room, they all visibly move forward.
01:03:42
And you know, here's a a player telling the head coach. And here's the head
01:03:49
coach saying, "You're right." So whilst it wasn't great that I was late, uh what
01:03:54
happened after that was good >> from a team point of view. And and no one's
01:04:00
No one's um immune from being asked to be what they say they be. >> With with the benefit of hindsight, you
01:04:08
can see that's a good thing. Um at at the time, um like were you you pissed off or embarrassed or
01:04:15
>> Oh, you're embarrassed. You wouldn't be human if you weren't embarrassed. But it
01:04:21
Yeah, I had no right to be pissed off because I was late. The facts were I was late.
01:04:26
>> So you you got If one of the players was late and and I told them they're late or
01:04:33
someone else in the room told them late, I'd be agreeing with whoever told him he
01:04:36
was late. It's not acceptable. So, >> um, no point being pissed off. Just take it
01:04:44
on the chin and say, "Well, don't be late next time." >> Yeah. But in a hierarchy environment,
01:04:50
like he he really he sort of had no right to >> Yes, he did. He had every right. And
01:04:55
like there's no hierarchy environment. I don't believe there is one. I think yes
01:05:00
is like you you ask players to join a leadership group. So it's a joint leadership and you have alignment with
01:05:10
all parties across the board and you know the players uh have to drive the game on the field.
01:05:20
So you need them to be help drive it off it. And and so I don't see it as hierarchy. I would just see it as okay
01:05:27
well we're all in this together >> and uh >> I'm just privileged one who gets to be
01:05:33
called head coach >> but if I do something that doesn't go with what we're saying which is team
01:05:39
first and being late is not team first that's I've been selfish because I've
01:05:44
either done yeah you put something ahead of the team to not be at that meeting uh so I deserve a an uppercut and you
01:05:55
know he was good enough to give me one. Well, at the time, yes, it was embarrassing, but at the same time, it
01:06:01
was also something I really, you know, appreciated him having the strength of character to do.
01:06:08
>> Um, >> it was great leadership from him. >> Yeah, 100%. You said something before
01:06:13
and I've never I've never heard it framed this this way before, but the um
01:06:16
the 92 uh% thing, 88% thing. Um, and I got to say for me and possibly a lot of people listening or watching this
01:06:24
podcast, it's one of my toxic traits. I'm just terrible at having tough conversations.
01:06:30
>> Um, >> yeah. Does it get easier and easier? >> No, never gets easy. And and ironically,
01:06:40
uh, if you spoke to my wife, she'd say I'm terrible at it with with her and with the kids.
01:06:50
So I have to work really hard at it in our family environment like in the the emotional side of that and I don't know
01:07:00
if it's because of you know we're a blended family um whereas I find it an easier thing to
01:07:09
do when there's less emotion around it >> and in the rugby side of it. So, you
01:07:15
know, we can be good on the right hand side, but poor on the left hand side, or we can just be totally good, or we can
01:07:21
be totally poor. >> Um, but what I do know is, uh, if you don't have them, there's a
01:07:31
consequence. If you do have them and you manage them well, then, you know, the consequences aren't so great.
01:07:40
>> Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it's different in like um a test rugby environment like
01:07:44
you got to make you got to have these tough conversations and do it with a sense of urgency because it's a
01:07:48
selection based thing or whatever, but >> in a home environment like you can
01:07:52
procrastinate a bit and eventually it'll if you address it or not, it's going to
01:07:56
work itself out somehow. >> Yeah. Well, relationships I think are a lot harder than
01:08:02
>> uh when you don't have them though. Like they it drags on and on, doesn't it? And then
01:08:09
eventually there's a big bust up and >> you either fix it or you don't. And if
01:08:14
you don't fix it then, you know, it's two people going in different directions. But um
01:08:22
I'm certainly not an expert on the relationship side of it. Uh but I'm okay
01:08:28
in the rugby side of it. I can as I said I think it's because of the emotion and
01:08:32
and and it may be you know your different world you live in sometimes within the
01:08:39
one world you live in but >> I just know if you don't have them then there's a bigger consequence so
01:08:45
>> I'm working hard at having them. >> Yeah it's good to hear that you're still
01:08:50
working on it. So I think we all are. We're all constantly works in progress.
01:08:53
There was um I was reading the um the Ivan Kerry book and there was a quote in there and when I when I read this quote
01:08:59
I actually thought of you because I thought it's a it's almost like a steism
01:09:02
um he he says tough conversations don't have to be tough conversations but I I
01:09:06
don't know I like the idea of that in practice but I feel like they they just
01:09:10
are by design. >> Well they are in our own mind. I think once you have them, I think they become
01:09:18
actually um invigorating conversations because they allow you to move uh either the relationship that you're
01:09:30
have with the person you're having it with in a better direction. It's an
01:09:34
opportunity to show care. Uh it's an opportunity to take responsibility uh for things. So, and ownership. So I I
01:09:44
understand what he's saying, you know, but it's the blocker is, you know, this is going
01:09:50
to be tough. I don't want to do this. Oh god, I don't want to have to give them
01:09:55
bad news or I don't want to take ownership of this, you know, cuz it's embarrassing. Um,
01:10:03
but once you've done it, it's, you know, you'll know yourself. It feels so much
01:10:07
better once it's done and it's it's like I guess you've got an abscess and you
01:10:12
lance it and all the buses out and you can get on with it again, you know, and >> move forward.
01:10:17
>> Yeah. Are there any that stand out as some of like the the toughest conversations you've had? like over the
01:10:24
weekend um knowing this podcast was coming up I watched that Amazon Prime um series that the All Blackstone and so
01:10:31
there was some things in there like um Ryan Croy Julian See maybe an Andy Allison there as well like
01:10:38
they these these are really tough conversations like you you you know you're almost like crushing someone's
01:10:43
dream in a way aren't you? Well, when you're dropping someone, you are. >> And I think um or you you know, you're
01:10:51
you're taking away their dream >> and they are they're really tough
01:10:57
conversations because it's giving someone news they don't want to hear. >> But I I guess the thing that helps me
01:11:08
have those is, you know, was this is what we believe is right for the team. So the team's more important than the
01:11:15
individual even though you care and love the individual. You love the team more than so you have
01:11:22
them and you try and do it in the best way you can. >> Yeah. That the Amazon program I I really
01:11:29
hated it because I it wasn't really us and it doesn't matter who you are.
01:11:35
You've got cameras there. It makes people different. And yeah, I thought it was one of the commercial things we
01:11:42
didn't need to do. >> Yeah, that's that's interesting. I suppose as soon as there's cameras
01:11:47
there, it does there there is a performative aspect to it. >> Well, you just can't be your normal
01:11:51
self. >> Um I don't think it's very very difficult to be anyway. You know, you're
01:11:56
always aware of we we didn't show them a lot anyway. M >> we okay you can come and do this and that's
01:12:08
gone and then >> now we'll get on with it. >> I I I found it quite interesting that
01:12:14
cuz I I had sort of no clue really what what your job was. I thought like your job would maybe be a manager and you
01:12:19
know you've got coaches and you get like direct executive reports or something
01:12:22
but you're you're you're on the >> you're on the field every day like
01:12:26
tossing the ball around you know calling all the shots. So the head coach is still definitely like a a coaching role
01:12:31
even though you've got all these coaches beneath you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're more the
01:12:34
helicopter, you know, like you've got it's not just the coaches, it's all your
01:12:38
staff and >> you try and let them do their thing, but >> you know, your job is to challenge them
01:12:44
a little bit and >> or or I remember talking to Gilly, who's best SMC coach I've ever seen, and we're
01:12:55
having problems with Dan Carter uh and his leg. And I' said to Dan, you know,
01:13:01
what's your best playing weight? and he saw I'm 93 and you know he was doing the
01:13:05
jockey head so there was no fat at 93 and so yeah what weight were you when you weren't having trouble with your
01:13:12
with your leg and he was 92 he might have been 95 and then 92 and I said oh okay good and then I went and
01:13:21
saw Gillian I said you know at 92 he didn't have any leg problems at 95 he is and biomechanically DC is not the
01:13:29
perfect individual he's different. He's like a great raceh horse. You It doesn't slow them down
01:13:36
just cuz their legs aren't in alignment. But I learned from the raceh horsing game that, you know,
01:13:44
eventually you pay a price if you're carrying too much weight on them. So I said, "Why don't why don't we try and
01:13:50
get some weight off and see what happens?" And Gilly was great. He said, "Yeah, okay. Let's try it." And we
01:13:56
didn't. He never had any leg problems. He come into that, you know, under a cloud in the 215 into the World Cup and
01:14:02
just grew and grew in confidence and played like a, you know, best player in the world. So,
01:14:08
so that that's part of your job is uh as a overall head, you know, your job is
01:14:15
not to be the Sinc coach. Your job is to just check, okay, what he looks like he's fat. What's going on there? Oh,
01:14:23
blah blah blah. Okay, I'll know where he is when we got him doing some extra. So,
01:14:28
you're you're just helping them. Sorry. You know, deliver on what they want to deliver on.
01:14:36
>> Yeah. Um, yeah. Speaking of Gilly, uh, Dr. Nick Gill, I had him on the podcast
01:14:40
and he he told a story about, um, early on in the his all black time, um, he was
01:14:45
doing like a a pull-up or something at a bar at a um, at one of the gyms and downtrailed him. Um,
01:14:53
were you a victim of any pranks or were were you immune? Were you I thought you'd be immune to that.
01:14:58
>> No, >> really. >> No, they love they love uh seeing you and I think it's right like they they
01:15:08
love seeing, you know, the people that they're working with and in Gilly's case, you
01:15:15
know, he's the SNC coach, me, I'm the head coach. So, they love seeing normalization.
01:15:21
and and having a laugh at your expense and and I think that's that's good for
01:15:25
the team. >> Um you may not like it at the time, but it's good for the team.
01:15:31
>> Any any standouts? >> Oh, there's heaps. Heaps. We used to have a uh a Tuesday
01:15:39
night um club knot. We call it a club knot where you wore your club jersey and and we'd sell raffles and
01:15:48
um Dne and and Brady Retellic were the raffle uh guys. So they'd go and get prizes
01:15:57
either see Shandandy or Gilbert and get some money to go and get the prizes or they'd get some donated through
01:16:03
sponsors. Um, so the raffles would be on and then you'd have a club captain who'
01:16:07
do give out club notices and and then there would be a pistake somewhere amongst that. So invariably I'd be one
01:16:15
coping it. >> What about um in terms of impressions of you? Uh anyone >> H.
01:16:22
>> Could anyone do it? Okay. >> Uh yeah, there was a few that weren't
01:16:25
too bad. Yeah, a few. >> What was it? Um, yeah. What's the What's the um team bus like? I'm guessing
01:16:34
there's two sort of team buses. There's team bus on on the weekend. >> Yeah.
01:16:37
>> And team bus on a on a on a weekday. There you are. You're a bloke in your
01:16:41
50s in this bus with a with a bunch of like, you know, fit, energetic young guys. Um, is that a crazy environment?
01:16:50
>> Uh, the bus has a different flow to it depending on what part of the week we're in. So
01:16:58
trainings early in the week, you know, there's plenty of chatter. Um, everyone has their own seats um through
01:17:08
through time served. Coaches always sit at the front or management are always up
01:17:13
the front. You guys are usually in the seats up the front next behind the last management person. And then the guys
01:17:22
that have been there the longest, there's usually four, three or four, I can't remember how many we had in the
01:17:26
back seat, would be in the back seat. Captains never allowed in the back seat. >> And there'd be a lot of talking and
01:17:32
stuff and it was great. You know, music, there's a music committee, so someone
01:17:36
had to play music. Uh then as we get into nearer the end of the week I like captain's run still it'd be quiet
01:17:47
on the way to the captain's run but then afterwards it'd be chat and banter and a
01:17:51
bit of laughter and then on game day it was everyone had their headphones on and be
01:17:58
no noise, no speaking, no nothing. And then afterwards, depending on how we went,
01:18:05
>> uh, we would there'd be plenty of noise. >> And we we had a ritual where we played a
01:18:12
song. It had to be the last song and it had to finish. Was all bit of pressure on the music uh guy. He had to have it
01:18:20
finishing as the bus rolled up to the hotel where we were staying to get off. And it was called the Gambler. During my
01:18:27
time, I think they got a new one under Fosian. I don't I don't know what
01:18:30
they're doing with Razer, but um I'd been coached by a guy called Gordy Hunter.
01:18:36
>> M >> who showed me the how humor was a really important part of of helping a rugby
01:18:46
team diffuse pressure. And he taken us on a tour with New Zealand Combined Services
01:18:53
um throughout the UK. It was about a 12-week trip. And uh he had asked us all to bring cassettes
01:19:01
back in those days. He's we' all had to bring a cassette of our favorite song
01:19:06
and then he gave to the music guy and anyway he wanted his one played first and it was Stairway to Heaven.
01:19:13
>> 8 minutes or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it was more than that because what happened was
01:19:20
um played it, he took it out and he always got his cassette back cuz he sat right
01:19:27
behind the bus driver and he made me as c I was captain of the team and he made me sit beside him. So I was allowed up
01:19:33
the back and anyway second I don't know whose cassette went in the second time but as
01:19:41
soon as it started playing he tapped the bus driver on the shoulder said take that put this back in. So for 12 weeks
01:19:46
we played one cassette, Stairway to Hip, one song, and it drove everyone nuts. But then in
01:19:53
the end, it united us. And that's where I got the idea from. So I thought, okay,
01:19:58
well, let's play this one song. We only play it if we win. We don't play it if
01:20:02
we it's that was the rule. So if we if we lost, we never we never got to play
01:20:06
it. Never got to hear it. >> And it was like a subconscious thing. And you know, it was great. and everyone
01:20:14
would rip into it and sing and you know initially again it was the same resistance as we had with Gordy or what
01:20:21
this is a [ __ ] song it's not a modern day song but then they got okay well
01:20:26
we're playing this again and then the challenge went into the poor old music
01:20:30
man he had to if he didn't get it right the boys would and the bus driver would
01:20:34
muck around with him had a great bus driver in New Zealand so no it was good so it was little things like that
01:20:40
happened >> yeah there must be conversations that you hear that like what the hell is this
01:20:46
going? >> Uh, no. Not too you're far enough away from that so you don't hear them.
01:20:54
>> Yeah. In the um Amazon Prime documentary, the bus driver says something like there's some songs where
01:20:59
Steve's like, "Skip on to the next one." >> Yeah. Know next. Yeah.
01:21:03
>> What genre? >> I I'm pretty open to most genre, but I'm not a big rapper. I don't like the
01:21:08
rapping stuff, so I used to try and put a bit of pressure on them to change that. Then to the credit of the music
01:21:15
guys that would be a we challenge to see if they could cope with me putting them
01:21:18
under pressure and then the other boys would be a listen to the go get it back on don't put it on
01:21:25
>> and we'd have a bit of fun with them. >> That's good. Um yeah I've heard you talk
01:21:29
about um rules versus expectations and you're not a big fan of rules. Um yeah
01:21:35
what were your non-negotiable rules? uh with the teams one um number one was team first individual
01:21:44
second uh alignment so I wanted to have alignment within the coaching group wanted to have alignment then with the
01:21:52
leadership group and then I wanted to have alignment with management leadership group and then alignment with
01:21:59
the team so but and and that the senior guys the leaders would drive it you know
01:22:06
was their team they had to drive it So they were the non-negotiables. >> Everything else was up for negotiation.
01:22:13
>> Um, a player like Richie McCoy as head coach, how do how do you coach someone like that? Someone that's that's
01:22:20
got that um competitive level the same as yours, if not higher. Um, yeah, just personal expectations that are like
01:22:27
level 10. >> Well, he was really coachable cuz he wanted to be better all the time. So,
01:22:33
and he was smart enough to know, well, he can't do it by himself. So he would
01:22:37
look to people within the organization to to help him get better. Um what he wanted, okay, identify for me what you
01:22:47
want me to be better at and then give me some examples of how I can do that and then he'd go away and do it. Cuz when he
01:22:54
started like he was he was probably not the most talented rugby player. um definitely the most uh
01:23:04
best work ethic and definitely mentally the toughest. So he combined those two things with
01:23:14
okay now if I if I can improve my skill level and skills you know skill is is something you can learn if you're
01:23:23
persistent enough with it >> and he was and he became very very proficient at a whole range of rugby
01:23:31
skills because he had the work ethic and the and the mental fortitude to to keep
01:23:36
turning up every day to try and be better at it. And in the end he was the greatest rugby player of all time I
01:23:42
think um because he he had so many skills uh and he had that mental fortitude >> and the work ethic.
01:23:50
>> He he seems from everything I've read and heard about him um just so like
01:23:55
incredibly focused and dialed in on the job at hand. Did did you have many conversations with him that weren't
01:24:01
rugby or all black related? >> Oh, we had lots of conversations. you like you didn't have to have too many
01:24:07
rugby conversations with him. I remember having one particular rugby conversation
01:24:11
in 15. We were in London and uh he always knew I I wanted to talk to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have
01:24:20
a cup of tea." So, we went and had a cup of tea and I said, "You know, I reckon there's only
01:24:26
one thing that's going to stop us winning the World Cup." And he said, "What's that?" And I said, "You."
01:24:33
And he he sat back in his chair and he said, "What do you mean? You think I'm
01:24:37
not playing well enough?" I said, "I think you're playing like a champion,
01:24:40
mate." I said, "But you want it so much. You're not trusting anybody else in the
01:24:45
group and you're trying to do everybody's job." I said, "Just do yours
01:24:51
and trust the boys will do theirs. Trust the coaching group will do theirs. Trust
01:24:56
manager to do his job and we'll be sweet." And he did. He just walked, you know, he
01:25:02
must have gone away and thought about it and but it was because he wanted it so much because he knew he was going to
01:25:08
retire. We both knew he was retiring at the, you know, before the World Cup. We knew he was going to retire after the
01:25:14
World Cup. So, and as you said, he's very competitive and he he he cares so much about the team and about
01:25:22
the game. Um, and you can see that and you know, why he's still involved in it
01:25:28
now. So >> could could you see yourself in many of the players like you see Richie Mccor and did it
01:25:35
remind you of a like a younger version of yourself or Rich in 2015 did it remind you of that you know year in
01:25:41
Canterbury where you were being controlling or you don't see yourself you just see
01:25:49
I know what you're feeling something cuz I've been there >> and I want it too but
01:25:54
>> I know if we both like that that's not going to work for us. So we have to we
01:25:59
just have to trust other people. >> Mhm. >> Um you know like he should always never good enough to be
01:26:07
even considered to be see parts of me and him but >> he he I know what you mean like he's very
01:26:14
competitive and and when we allow our competitive nature to get in front of the process then we're in trouble.
01:26:22
>> It doesn't matter who you are. So it's just a matter of bringing learning and
01:26:26
understanding that this is all about process >> because what happens is we get
01:26:31
distracted when it's about the outcome. >> Mhm. >> And we start thinking about the past sh
01:26:37
you know 07 or we think about the future. What if we don't what if we don't win this? What are the public
01:26:42
going to be like when we get home? And really what's really important is what's happening now. What do we have to
01:26:49
do right now to do what we need to do to get where we want to go? And and the the problem is not thinking about
01:26:58
the past or thinking about the future. It's how long we stay there. >> That's the big issue.
01:27:03
>> And and recognizing you're not there. So the job is to try and see it yourself.
01:27:08
And the job of your your teammates and and your coaching group or other people in your, you know, is is to recognize
01:27:16
that you're there and help you get out. M >> cuz the good people can get out really
01:27:21
quickly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Is is that a Gilbert and Noa thing? I I I think I read about this in
01:27:26
the book um Legacy by James Kerr. Uh the redhead, bluehead thing. >> Yeah. Well, that's part of it, right?
01:27:32
Yeah. Yeah. And like Gilbert was brilliant with the group and understated how valuable he was and
01:27:39
he did so many things for that team that Yeah. [Music] I've heard you say um Sunonny Bill
01:27:46
Williams is the best athlete um you've you've ever coached. How like how do you
01:27:50
um how do you say that say that so definitively? Like what separates Sunonny Bill Williams from a like a
01:27:56
Barrett, a Smith, insert name here? >> You know what I mean? >> Just an athleticism of of him like uh as
01:28:05
an athlete he'd be the best athlete up coast. I'm not saying he's the most
01:28:09
talented or or anything like that, but he as an athlete, he's look at him. He's
01:28:16
>> he's a supreme uh looking athlete. He's built beautifully. Uh he's powerful.
01:28:26
Uh he's strong. Um he's big. So all the things if you were looking for if if he was a raceh horse, for
01:28:34
example, you'd say, "Well, I want to buy that horse. you know, and and the athletes are no
01:28:41
different. Um, you look at all those great sprinters, they've all got big asses, big powerful athletes.
01:28:50
And, you know, he he is just probably in my mind the best athlete. Like Dan Carter is a great player,
01:29:01
but biomechanically had flaws. Whereas you look at um Sunny like he had no flaws
01:29:08
biomechanically perfect. Uh he ended up having some knee problems in the end but
01:29:13
he's great athlete. Another guy I coach is um who was close to him was uh Alfie
01:29:19
Thomas from Wales. He was a amazing athlete too. [Music] >> Yeah. Well to time stamp this
01:29:27
conversation at the time we're recording this. say like a week or two out from
01:29:30
Sunny Bill having a fight with um Paul Gallon. Um so he's still in insane shape
01:29:36
and still working really really hard. >> Um >> yeah, I know you're not a fan huge fan
01:29:42
of it, but the Amazon Prime show, which I've referenced a couple of times, there's a really nice moment in there
01:29:46
where uh following an awful moment where he gets that red card. Um can you remember what you said to him after
01:29:52
that? >> Oh, I I'm not sure. >> Like no use sulking about it, son.
01:29:58
Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was hurting cuz he knew he'd let the team down and we we lost the test because
01:30:06
right in the last moment, but we didn't lose the test cuz he got sent off. But
01:30:11
when you get sent off, you take that responsibility and you and and if you lose, you take it even heavier. So,
01:30:17
there was no point in talking about it. We just I needed him to come back and be
01:30:20
a, you know, back in a good place mentally so he could help the rest of the team
01:30:25
>> cope with it. So, Yeah. >> When do when do you think you were um at
01:30:31
your peak as a leader? Like as a player, you can probably look back and in hindsight on reflection over your career
01:30:36
and say, "Oh, this was the year where I I played my best regardless of the win
01:30:40
loss record." Can can you do that as a coach? >> I think you can look back and say you
01:30:45
coached better this day or that day than you did this day or this year. And >> um
01:30:56
you know there's there's periods within periods that you coach well and you don't coach well and you
01:31:03
know so um you strive to be better every day but you're not always able to do that.
01:31:11
>> Um such a polarizing job and you had it for such a long time. Were um any
01:31:17
members of the public ever like rude or impolite to your face? Uh yeah, there was when we were we lost
01:31:23
in ' 07. There was a few people uh had things to say, but I don't didn't
01:31:30
used to worry me too much. >> Yeah, cuz I've had um Hardy John Hart on
01:31:35
the podcast and uh after was it the 99 World Cup? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 99 World Cup. Yeah. He he the
01:31:42
backlash from that uh caused him to go into like a deep depression to the point where he was in dinner with his with his
01:31:48
first wife and was miserable over there then came home and there's a period of
01:31:52
time where he you could barely leave the house and cross the street you know he was that
01:31:57
>> I feel like we've grown grown up as a nation e we've moved >> um look 07 was tough time and
01:32:08
for a number of reasons and like my other passed away. Um, and that sort of put a reality to losing the
01:32:19
World Cup. And was it something we wanted to do? No, we didn't set out to do it. And did we make some mistakes?
01:32:27
Yeah, of course we did. Cuz we we we didn't get it right. Uh, did we own that? Yeah, we did. Um, but at the end
01:32:34
of the day, World Cups are hard to win >> and uh, you know, not everyone's done that. Like
01:32:44
Ireland's have been supposedly the the number one team in the last we while and they still can't get past
01:32:51
the quarterfinals. Um, so they're not easy and you've got to try and learn from them.
01:33:00
But people get like they get because they care too. M >> and if you can dec uh if you can put that in the
01:33:12
cupboard and go, "Right, I understand how that person's feeling cuz I care." Then you can sort of brush
01:33:19
it off. >> And and if they walk away and they actually have any sense of normality
01:33:28
about them, they'll actually be embarrassed when they stop and think about what they've just said or done.
01:33:33
and uh and if they don't then they're not worth worrying about anyway. >> So uh the key thing is you've got to be
01:33:42
able to compartmentize it to the point where okay if I look in the mirror have I done everything I possibly could have
01:33:50
done? Yes. Have I done it all right? No. Okay. What have I got to be able to do better if I
01:33:58
get another chance? And that's all you can do. And then I wouldn't want the New Zealand public to
01:34:06
change their passion and their want for all black team. That's what makes rugby so important to this country is
01:34:16
but it makes our rugby players and our coaching and our rugby union have to look at ourselves and well what do we
01:34:23
want? >> You know we've got this outside group who aren't even involved in it wants
01:34:27
this. So it pushes you to want even more. So >> you can't have all the pats on the back
01:34:35
and not get the odd punch in the nose >> and then you know cry poor me poor me.
01:34:41
And some of it like I know what Hardy got was ridiculous. And it was particularly down here.
01:34:47
>> You had a race meat down here. >> Yeah. Yeah. And contabrians are very very oneeyed
01:34:52
and they're called that bit for a reason because you know they don't see too much
01:34:56
past red and black >> and that's okay. Nothing wrong with it but um sometimes it gets out of kilter a
01:35:04
little bit >> and there is a problem with that. today and I think um in in Card's case I think it you know
01:35:13
it was we were learning but at the same time as learning we were hurting and we didn't do those
01:35:23
particular things very well and as I said some of the people that behave like that will look back on it and
01:35:29
>> think you know they'll be embarrassed >> give themselves an uppercut
01:35:33
>> good idea >> 2007 um World Cup was would that be your biggest professional adversity?
01:35:41
>> Oh no [ __ ] I we uh lost 10 tests in a row I think it was when I was coaching Wales and
01:35:50
>> that was tough >> because I was in an environment where I didn't have the support of all my
01:35:56
friends and >> and uh a group or a nation that knew me or you know I'd come out of Canterbury
01:36:03
and coaching crusaders and Canterbury and we'd been very very successful. So,
01:36:07
I hadn't tasted uh defeat like that. And uh >> but what we did have and I'd gone over
01:36:15
there to help Graeme and Graeme um pulled the pin after we lost to Ireland in the first
01:36:23
Six Nations game and then I got handed uh the job and a I probably wasn't ready
01:36:29
for it, but you're not going to say no when under the circumstances that you
01:36:32
got given it. And then I was we had a group of young men who weren't fit enough,
01:36:41
weren't ready for the task that they were being asked to do, but they were the best we had.
01:36:48
>> So it was a matter of protecting them against a a nation who have Welsh have
01:36:54
similar high expectations. unrealistic I might add but same high expectations as New Zealand public do
01:37:04
>> and uh that was tough you know so I learned there though that um you know be inclusive
01:37:16
but what's our plan okay this is where we're going we know if we do this we're going to get
01:37:22
better if we keep persevering we're going to be successful so we ended up becoming uh we had a we lost I think it
01:37:34
was either 10 or 11 I can't remember and Dave Moffett was the CEO and he come to
01:37:39
see me and he couldn't he couldn't really say it but he wanted to tell me
01:37:43
if we didn't win against the next opponent where we're going to I was going to get the chop.
01:37:50
So I had to say it for him and he and he goes, "Yeah, well you you need to win."
01:37:55
And I said, "Okay, well, you go away and sort out who the next coach is going to
01:37:59
be, and I'm just going to carry on coaching >> because I need to spend the time
01:38:02
coaching. These kids need >> their help." And uh so we just dug in and we lucky enough we beat Scotland.
01:38:09
And so kept the job. Then we went to the World Cup and had a got knocked out in the quarterfinal by uh was it England?
01:38:17
Yeah, England. We outscored them three tries to two actually in Australia. came back, had a pretty good uh Six
01:38:24
Nations. Then I came home and I'd always I two older daughters. I promised them
01:38:29
I'd come home. I would only go for x amount of time to Wales and um so I promised them I'd come home and and um I
01:38:39
was lucky enough to walk straight into the black job. However, the thing that pleased me most of all
01:38:45
was that next year that 2004 year, the Welsh team went on and won the the Six Nations. So, we'd turn them around
01:38:55
enough to be able to be successful. So yeah, that's one of the proudest coaching
01:39:01
things that when I look back on my career, yeah, winning the World Cups was great and a lot of things along the way
01:39:08
with the all blacks, but I was also very proud of how we dug in and took on the adversity of that Welsh experience and
01:39:16
grew from it. >> Well, thanks for sharing that. I suppose to be a great coach, you also need that
01:39:22
adversity as well. I'm think of like the NBA, completely different sport, but if
01:39:25
you look at the um the top point scorer list of all time, like there's names on
01:39:28
there that you'd expect like Kobe, LeBron, MJ, they're also on the the list
01:39:33
of the guys that have missed the most shots as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Part and parcel. Well, you don't
01:39:38
get better if you don't, you know, you've got to put your hand up and and
01:39:42
you've adversity is a wonderful teacher >> and and there won't be a coach out there
01:39:49
that hasn't had at some point in their career a period where they've had to
01:39:55
look at themselves and challenge themselves to deal with adversity. >> Still not nice when you're going through
01:40:04
it. >> Well, it's not >> sucks. Yeah, of course it does. And and
01:40:08
it's why you don't want to go back there. >> Yeah. Um, one more coaching question
01:40:14
then. Um, I'd love to move on to some personal reflections. How are you doing?
01:40:17
You right? >> Yeah. Good. >> Yeah. You enjoying yourself or would you
01:40:21
Is there a million places you'd rather be? >> Oh, there's probably a million places
01:40:25
I'd rather be, Dom, but >> appreciate the honesty. >> We're here and we're having a chat, so
01:40:31
you know, why not enjoy it? >> Well, yeah, I'm I'm loving it. I love
01:40:34
that attitude as well. Um yeah, what did it feel like when you're in that job for
01:40:39
so many so many years and then uh 2019 suddenly it's you know you wake up and
01:40:43
you don't have this pressure or responsibility anymore. Is it is it a weird feeling? Is it a a a feeling of
01:40:49
like relief? What's it like? >> It's not relief. Um it's hard to describe really because it
01:40:59
becomes part of who you are like the team. You care about them so much. you care about the people in the team so
01:41:06
much. So you want them to continue to be successful and and you want you know uh
01:41:14
I guess you then become quite judgmental about things with regard to how are they being
01:41:23
supported and and so forth and not judgmental but you're looking you know you're watching and you're observing
01:41:31
become very much an observer of what's going on and And you know, I I was really pleased that Fozy took over
01:41:41
because I think he deserved that opportunity. And then co happened and a lot of other things have happened that
01:41:49
probably didn't need to happen. >> And if you read his book, you'll hear
01:41:52
all about them. But I knew that the team would be in good hands and that uh a lot of the stuff
01:42:03
staff was still there and and the players would be looked after. So uh you know I I chose to then step right
01:42:12
back out of it. I didn't I've only think I've only watched uh live um
01:42:19
the one all black test that was the opening France test in the French uh world cup all the rest I watched on
01:42:27
tally um because I think I felt like it's time to get back out and leave it to whoever
01:42:34
is doing it you know and it's the same now you still feel like you know you're
01:42:39
watching and observing but it's not your time you've had your time at someone
01:42:43
else's, let them get on with it and and support them the best you can. >> Yeah, that's interesting. Um, a lot of
01:42:52
politicians say the same sort of thing once you've been prime minister. They
01:42:55
like retreat like well into the background. They just don't want to don't want to get their fingers in the
01:42:59
pie anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get a lot of people ringing up, you know, the media
01:43:03
ring up and want you to comment and and sometimes you do and and then sometimes, you know, I I 99% of the time
01:43:12
I just go, "No, and I'm not going to do that." And sometimes I do and
01:43:18
uh you know, but I I I'm more of the opinion that look, it's their time. Let
01:43:24
them get on with it and >> let them do what they want to do and they they've the right to do it. they've
01:43:29
been elected to do the job and >> trust them to get on with it. >> Yeah. Um Fozy, who who you've mentioned.
01:43:35
Yeah. Yeah. You coached together for a long time. You're in Japan together. Is
01:43:39
he one of your best mates? >> Uh yeah, he is. He's he's uh you've got best mates that you went to
01:43:46
school with and then you've got people that become your best mates because you've come in contact with him along
01:43:51
the way. So, he's a good man. I trust him heck of a lot and we have a good relationship and we enjoy each other's
01:43:57
company and and and we like every relationship you have moments where you have disagreements too but you know
01:44:05
those disagreements are put on the table and because they're it's a tight
01:44:10
relationship you can have those 8% conversations that you need to have and and you grow because of them. M
01:44:16
>> so and I enjoy coaching with him and >> as I said he's a good human being.
01:44:21
>> When when he was all black coach and there was the stuff going on about him
01:44:24
being replaced which is no doubt a couple of um um meaty chapters in his book. Um yeah how how do you support um
01:44:31
him as a mate? Is it a text or a phone call? >> I'd just ring in and see how he's going
01:44:37
and how he's feeling and make sure he's okay. And um yeah, I got a bit vocal about how the
01:44:43
rugby union treated him one point and cuz I thought it was poor. >> You know, you if you elect someone then
01:44:49
get behind whether you've made a poor decision or a good decision, you're you
01:44:54
you've put him there. So he didn't he didn't get put there by himself. They
01:44:59
put him there. >> And and the relationship between your CEO and your head coach has got to be
01:45:05
really one-off support. And I was very very fortunate to have Steve Chu as the CEO and we had a great relationship you
01:45:13
know coming back to Canterbury and Crusaders and then into the black. So and I don't I don't think that
01:45:21
relationship was there for those two and and that's that was disappointing. >> Um you you mentioned your mom in passing
01:45:31
before. Uh, so your mom Loris, she died in 2008 and um I believe your dad moved in with you for a time a time then. Uh,
01:45:39
>> yeah. Yeah. He lived with us once mom passed away. He come and lived with us
01:45:43
for the rest of his days and it was great. >> Yeah. You lost your they died in quite
01:45:50
quick succession really. Your mom in 2008, dad of a stroke at the age of 78 and 2012.
01:45:55
>> Yeah. So um so your mom the year before she died that was the the 2007 World Cup
01:46:02
which we talked about before she never got to see the success that followed. Uh your dad 2012 so he got to see 2011 but
01:46:09
not the um incredible success after that. Um, is that with with those massive like career highs that followed,
01:46:17
is that something that sort of stung a little bit in the back of your mind that they missed that? They missed seeing you
01:46:22
grow to the >> peak, Steve. Um, it didn't sting, you know. >> Is it uh something that you would have
01:46:31
liked them to have gone through that time with with us? It would have been good, but
01:46:39
life's not fair. So there's no point being a sook about it. You just got to
01:46:43
accept it. And and if there is an afterlife, then they would have gone through it with us anyway. If there's
01:46:48
not, then uh they did everything they could to set me up to be able to do what we did anyway. So, um, yeah, like it's
01:47:00
more I I I would rather they were here so I could have the conversation than to have
01:47:08
them see what I've done, you know, like just as mates. Like, dad and I were incredibly close and
01:47:15
>> as I said, he lived with us for quite some time after mom passed. So, uh, he
01:47:21
became even closer. So, yeah, you do miss you miss that. Um >> but can't change it. So
01:47:30
>> yeah, it's it's it's life, isn't it? >> It's um it's a certainty for all of us.
01:47:35
So were you were you living with your dad down here in Crush during the earthquakes?
01:47:38
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. How Yeah. How was that with the earthquakes? Uh well,
01:47:44
the house got broken >> and um I just uh basically we just finished uh doing it all up but got broken so we had
01:47:56
to sort of move out of it. We got it got condemned so moved out of it. >> Mhm.
01:48:01
>> Tough. >> Um so your wife Tash so you've been married since um
01:48:07
>> 14 2014. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you not have enough going on at that
01:48:13
time to organize a wedding and >> uh >> right in between World Cups?
01:48:18
>> Yeah. No, it was a good time. It was good uh uh a good um distraction, >> was it? Yeah.
01:48:30
>> Yeah. >> What was your um what was your proposal like? Are you a >> Oh, very romantic.
01:48:36
>> Would I would expect nothing less hot air balloon? >> No. >> Hot air balloon over the port hills.
01:48:40
>> No, I don't like heights. So it wouldn't have been that I actually proposed to
01:48:43
her in Sydney in the gardens in Sydney actually. So went down on one knee and >> I probably asked her a couple of times
01:48:50
before that and she thought I was joking. So >> she didn't take me seriously. But
01:48:56
>> how how did you guys meet? Uh we've known each other for years and then um
01:49:01
it was really a relationship that her father had passed away and then mom had passed away and then uh
01:49:11
I know just through that relationship grew out of talking about respect for parents and
01:49:22
>> is this number number three for you? >> Yeah, we're number one really. I've only
01:49:26
got one wife. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mentioned before the podcast started like you and I um
01:49:34
and our respective families were in um dinner in Fiji like many years ago. I think probably before you were married.
01:49:39
>> Um and it was fascinating sort of you know seeing you briefly how you were
01:49:42
running your family with you fairly young kids at the time. You were running them almost like a like a micro team in
01:49:47
a way. It was quite inspiring to see. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, Tash has done a
01:49:52
wonderful job helping blend a group together and you know, it's difficult. Uh it was effectively three families, so
01:50:01
two two and two and and but now we're a group that are pretty solid and you know the two oldest girls Whitney and
01:50:09
Jess are uh you know their own uh right very successful and and the other the four
01:50:17
youngies are all starting to to grow and become successful in their right too. So
01:50:21
it's wonderful. >> Yeah. Whitney one of the um the Black Ferns uh coaches. Yeah. What? Um, yeah.
01:50:28
Do you do you text her? Do you have any sort of input in that? >> Uh, well, no, not really. I mean it
01:50:34
should I wanted to give her a space to do her own thing and we talk about rugby uh you know when we do chat and she's
01:50:43
she's uh you know she come from a teaching background and she's strong uh about her thoughts and beliefs and
01:50:54
>> um which is good you know she's got her own uh rugby now she's pretty sharp So,
01:51:03
>> well, not from um not from bad stock to be fair. >> Yeah. Well, I think she she too got a
01:51:09
lot from dad and uh you know, more so from him than me, I would suggest. >> Mhm.
01:51:16
>> Um and your wife Tash, like you I feel like you sort of touched upon this
01:51:20
before, but you what sort of role has she played in your success? Oh, she's came into my life at a really
01:51:26
great time. Um, as I took over the All Blacks and she's a former sports woman
01:51:33
herself. She's a very successful net baller and uh she's very straight shooter. So, she's not frightened to
01:51:40
tell me what she thinks I should be doing. and and she's strong with that and and I love that because she's got
01:51:48
good wise counsel and um good understanding of sport in itself and >> Mhm.
01:51:54
>> but more importantly what's right and wrong about life. So she's been
01:51:58
wonderful and and as I said as a as a blended family she's you know been wonderful mother so great stepmother as
01:52:07
well. Yeah, I suppose she's got to run the household because it's it's not just the
01:52:13
11, 12, 13 games, whatever a year we see on TV, is it? Like there's a lot that a
01:52:18
lot that goes on. What is it exactly like with All Black Coach? Like how how many nights a year are you away from
01:52:23
home? >> Uh I think one year we're about 290 days away from So >> but
01:52:33
most years would be 140 to 190 probably. So, you know, at least half the year or more.
01:52:41
>> Um, so there's a lot of time where she she's left dealing with with stuff and it's
01:52:50
difficult enough, you know, when it's not a blended family. So, when it's a
01:52:52
blended family, you're dealing with other people as well and and uh there's
01:52:58
multiple people to be looked after. So during the earthquakes, uh, you know, Crochet was all all cones
01:53:06
and we had kids getting dropped off all over the city to schools and she was having to do that. But, you know, she
01:53:13
was on the money and we were still learning to be a couple as well. And uh at times, you know, she probably sold
01:53:23
shouldered, you know, massive amount of responsibility and and uh more than she probably deserved to have to take. But
01:53:32
um it was just, as I said before, the sacrifice is that group of people, not the not the person doing the job. Like
01:53:40
it's not a sacrifice to coach the All Blacks. It's a sacrifice not to have
01:53:43
your husband or your father at home. I think they're the people that sacrifice.
01:53:48
A and and whenever um like you were under the spotlight or you know coping criticism. Yeah. What like what sort of
01:53:55
impact does that have on her? >> Oh, they feel that and but you know they're also as I said because she's
01:54:03
been through the sporting arena herself. She understands a lot about it and uh her advice is she
01:54:12
probably one of the first people I'd look to when I'm frustrated or I'm
01:54:16
feeling something I can talk to her about it and she'll have good advice for
01:54:20
me. So, she's been great. >> Yeah. I've um I've got a photo here. I
01:54:25
found this online. It's um it's a it's a beautiful photo. I think this is from um
01:54:31
2019. When where did where did you finish in the World Cup? Was it third? You got the third place medal. Yeah. So,
01:54:36
there's um >> there's a really nice moment where >> um I think you get you go over to the
01:54:41
grand stand, there's security guards. Um she breaches all health and safety protocol and
01:54:46
>> jumps over the bar. >> Jump over the barrier and then it's um
01:54:48
you guys on the field together and >> um yeah, it looks like a couple in love.
01:54:54
>> Oh, well, yeah, I do love her and >> I'm pretty sure she loves me, too. So,
01:54:59
can't um >> I I certainly have no uh right to be uh saying that I've done all this by
01:55:09
myself. I mean, she's certainly been a big part of it. >> Yeah. So, I feel like um you're at that
01:55:15
reflective stage of life now. What are you still working on as a man? >> Uh still trying to be a better husband
01:55:22
and better father and you know, they're the two key jobs I've got now. and be a
01:55:27
better coach. Like >> just be a better human being. You don't get it right every day of the week. But
01:55:33
uh if you can keep asking yourself to be better, I suppose you've got a chance, you know.
01:55:39
Certainly not perfect. That's for sure. >> Mhm. Well, yeah. Well, nobody is.
01:55:44
>> No. >> No. Um we're all we're all flawed. And anyone that anyone that isn't has lived
01:55:50
um an incredibly boring life, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look, I think we're
01:55:54
all flawed by the things that happen to us when we got no uh control over those things when we're young children and
01:56:03
we're we're um either scarred or or created by those experiences and and
01:56:12
if you you know talk to the psychologists, they'll say it all happens at a young age. So, at a young
01:56:18
age, you don't have too much control. It's but it's how you choose to
01:56:24
>> get yourself through that. And you know, if you become aware of what your flaws
01:56:28
are, then you can slowly but surely fix them >> or >> or do try and do better
01:56:36
>> or control them. >> Yeah. >> You know, so they're not flaws and
01:56:39
they're not such a handicap to who you are in your everyday life. And you know,
01:56:44
some people unfortunately don't get to do that and it's a tough old life for them. M.
01:56:51
What are your biggest flaws, would you say? >> Uh, selfish. >> Um, yeah, probably selfish.
01:57:04
Uh, competitive, which makes me selfish. Yeah, look, I don't It's easy to rattle off a few things,
01:57:17
but Some people see and say, "Well, this, this, and this." And other people say
01:57:25
that, that, and that. And >> it's not really what the biggest ones are. It's just what what it is that that
01:57:32
can jump out and bite you in the bum. >> Mhm. >> Uh when you don't want it to.
01:57:35
>> Yeah. >> And And you know, if I think about myself, uh you know, there's three or four
01:57:44
things. my pride, you know, can get in the way. And um, you know, I think about, do I like being
01:57:55
embarrassed? No. You know, when I was younger, a lot younger, you know, like I couldn't laugh at myself because I was
01:58:01
too, you know, I'd be ashamed or embarrassed by, you know, people laughing at me or laughing at something
01:58:07
that I should have been laughing at, too. So, you know, there's lots of things
01:58:13
that and they come and go, too. Like, you know, you get one under control and then something else will jump up. So,
01:58:21
but by and large, I'm pretty happy with the human being I am and and uh I've got
01:58:27
the love of a wonderful woman and and my children and and you know, I've got some
01:58:33
great friends, so can't ask for too much more than that. >> Yeah. Yeah. You seem like, you know,
01:58:38
you're at peace. Are are you someone that you'd want to have a beer with?
01:58:43
>> Uh, some days. >> That's a real honest answer. I appreciate that. I feel exactly the same
01:58:50
way. >> Some days it' be certainly wouldn't want to have a beer with me cuz I might be a
01:58:55
we bit grumpy. But look, I've just I understand I'm just turned 66, you know.
01:59:02
So every day is a good day that you wake up and and >> you can be as reflective as you like,
01:59:09
but really life's about living now. Uh I'm not there's no point me judging
01:59:18
myself or allowing other people to judge me at 66. I've just got to enjoy every day
01:59:25
that I'm alive. I don't know how long I'm going to still be here for. And
01:59:29
look, I hope it's as long as possible, but if I happen to go tomorrow, then I'll go knowing that, you know, it's
01:59:36
been a pretty good life. And and uh I've been fortunate to to have been involved
01:59:44
in some wonderful things. >> [ __ ] that's a beautiful answer. >> Your your grandkids, how do they hope
01:59:53
how do you hope they see you as a man? or don't have any yet. So, uh, >> come on. Come on. There's a blended
02:00:00
family. Who's going to be first? >> No, we don't want to put them under
02:00:03
pressure. But look, I don't know. and and and I think the again if we are fortunate enough to to have
02:00:20
grandchildren and and uh I just want them to know that granddad's someone they can go to and and get an ice cream
02:00:29
or get a a piece of chocolate or all the things that mom and dad don't give them because
02:00:37
they're not allowed them. >> You know, >> granddads and and and grandmothers are
02:00:41
there to spoil grandkids. >> Jeez, I I could see you being a granddad and I reckon you'd be a fantastic one as
02:00:47
well. Great for shoulder rides. >> Uh yeah, well be great for the ice creams and the chocolates cuz I like
02:00:53
them myself. >> Yeah. >> Um when was the when was the last time you cried? Are you quite in touch with
02:00:59
your emotions? >> Oh, yeah. I get quite emotional when we start talking about family.
02:01:04
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm surprised I haven't cried when you give me that picture of Tash
02:01:08
actually, but >> Oh, it's a beautiful photo actually. That just the whole moment like um Yeah.
02:01:14
her jumping over the barrier and and you both look so happy and at peace and calm.
02:01:20
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you'd prefer a different color metal around your neck,
02:01:24
but the fact that you you seem so happy and you've got your chest puffed out
02:01:27
with a a bronze medal. >> I don't know if that's my chest. I think
02:01:29
that's uh >> What are you most afraid of? Um, what am I most afraid of?
02:01:41
I'm not sure I'm afraid of anything really. That's probably a pretty
02:01:49
cynical answer because I will be. There'll be things that I'm not a big worrier. Like, I've always
02:01:57
thought that worrying is a waste of time because it hasn't happened. then okay prepare for it to happen and
02:02:06
have a plan for it or if it has happened what are you doing about fixing it? >> Um
02:02:13
but um as I said before life's been you know I've been very fortunate. There's
02:02:20
not too much to be afraid of because I've lived a very been treated to a wonderful time while
02:02:28
I've been here and uh I guess you fear that the people you love get hurt or or you know D got uh breast
02:02:40
cancer we ago and that was tough and you fear that but you know things are going really
02:02:48
well there. So keep your fingers crossed that that carries on. But that's really
02:02:52
the only thing I'm fearful of. I'm not I'm not scared of um you know
02:03:01
life ending or or not being you know being judged by other people. That's never been something that's
02:03:09
bothered me. But >> I I think you Yeah. If I was got down deep and and uh honest about it really is the
02:03:20
only fear I have is what you know may happen to your kids or your wife or the people you love.
02:03:27
>> Mhm. >> Yeah. I I'm not scared of dying, but um I think it's it's not not something I
02:03:35
want to do, but it's the FOMO aspect, I guess. You know, it's what you'd miss
02:03:38
out on. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you think if you dwell on it too long and you think about it,
02:03:42
that's what it would be for me. >> Yeah. I guess like >> you have no control over being born and
02:03:50
you have no control over when you're going to go. So, but you do in between.
02:03:55
>> And that's why I said, you know, I'm 66 now. I'm trying to work really hard on
02:04:00
not allowing other people to affect me with through their judgment or, you know, be tied down to how they think
02:04:08
I've got to do this because they think I should be doing it. If I'm doing what
02:04:12
needs to be done because it's right for me and and and the people that I love, then,
02:04:20
you know, I'm living pretty good life. And uh if I happen to to drop dead, I'm
02:04:26
going to be I I won't know I'm dead. >> And And but I know that I've I've uh
02:04:35
I've I've I've had a good go, you know. >> Yeah, you sure have. What do you think?
02:04:41
Is there an afterlife? >> Well, look, I don't know. But >> no, no, no, no. Well, no one knows.
02:04:47
>> But if there is, then we'll we'll we'll enjoy that for what it is, you know, and
02:04:54
>> that's a whole new experience, isn't it? Um, do I am I a spiritual person? Uh,
02:05:04
not overly, but certainly not underly either. I think I'm sort of middle of the road.
02:05:10
>> Mhm. >> Um, yeah, but it' be a hell of a way to go if there is
02:05:16
an afterlife. Bloody good party. >> Bonus. Um, is there three words that you'd like um,
02:05:25
family and friends to use to describe you at your funeral? >> Have you Have you heard this before? Do
02:05:30
you may have even come up with this. I had had this guy on the podcast called Dooall Allen, multisport legend, uh,
02:05:35
podium, finished on the coast to coast nine or 10 times, then became America's
02:05:39
Cup Cyclaw. >> He he does some like 24 48 hour adventure races. And one of his
02:05:44
teammates was um, Richie Mccau. >> Yeah. And he said during one of the nighttime challenges to keep everyone
02:05:50
sort of motivated, Richie went around the team and got everyone to, you know, to say three words they'd like people to
02:05:56
use at their funeral. And he couldn't remember Richie's three words, but one
02:05:59
of them was integrity. And he he thought it was an interesting word because even
02:06:02
though I'd only known Richie a couple of days, uh, that is definitely one of the
02:06:06
words he would have used for him. >> Yeah. >> Is this is this one of your coaching
02:06:10
things? Did you give this to Richie or >> No, no, no. Uh we often talked about uh
02:06:17
you know your story at what story would you want them to >> tell about you when you have your
02:06:23
grandchildren on your knee and or you know your son or daughter has their child on their knee and they're talking
02:06:30
about you. We talk about that a bit. But uh no, the three things I know like does
02:06:39
it matter what they say? Like at the end of the day, you're going to have some people say he's a bastard.
02:06:48
Some people going to say, "Oh, you know, he's brilliant." Um the people to ask that question I reckon
02:07:00
are the people that are closest to you. You know they'll they'll be able to say
02:07:03
it and you you can come up with all the you like it to be integrity and you'd
02:07:08
like it to be this and you'd like it to be that. But the reality is you know
02:07:12
people at funerals is you never hear anyone say anything bad anyway. But yeah, there's plenty of people that have
02:07:21
passed away that people have spoken about badly before they passed away. >> 100%.
02:07:27
>> So, I'm not too I'm, as I said before, I'm at the stage of my life where, you
02:07:32
know, people can say what they like. >> Not going to affect me anymore. >> Um, and I'm not going to be allow other
02:07:40
people to to judge me. Um, the people that I love, they can judge me >> and and and I'll judge myself.
02:07:52
>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself? >> Uh, am I proud of myself? I'm,
02:08:03
you know, if you look back to a little boy that was born in Mosgill, uh, and to where I've come now, yeah, I'm
02:08:22
proud of myself. I'm proud of uh being able to say I work with some wonderful people uh who have given us a
02:08:35
lot of success in in sport. Uh I'm proud to say I've got some wonderful friends. Um and through that
02:08:43
we've had some success in horse racing and and various other things. Uh, I'm
02:08:50
proud of the fact that I've grown as a human being and way better husband now
02:08:56
than I've ever been. Um, yeah. So, yeah. Well, I would be I think I can sit here and say I'm proud of myself. Yeah.
02:09:07
But >> I'm also realist enough to know that, you know, I could have if I had life
02:09:15
again, would there be things I'd change? Yeah. 100% and and all the way all along
02:09:22
the journey you change them and but hindsight's a wonderful thing. You don't
02:09:27
get to um have another go, >> you know, and if you do, I won't be called Steve Hansen. I'll be called,
02:09:36
you know, Jenny May or who knows, you know, like and and you don't get the opportunity to
02:09:44
to bring the wisdom with you. Um, this has been great, Steve. This has been really good. Um, yeah, you've been
02:09:54
like a a dream guest uh for mine on the on the podcast when I randomly reached out to your son with a DM and um we made
02:10:03
this happen. I was really surprised and it's been everything I hoped it would be
02:10:06
and more. Um, can I call you sir? >> How's it how's it been for you? Do you
02:10:14
you okay? Yeah, I mean it's it's a hell of a life and there's a lot to reflect on and I
02:10:19
just wonder how you feel reflecting on it for this length of time. >> Well, I was probably haven't spoken
02:10:25
about myself like this uh for this amount of length and time and you know it's enjoyable um doing podcasts. I've
02:10:36
been lucky enough to do a couple of them. Uh, and you get an opportunity to actually express who you are and
02:10:45
uh, and have the opportunity to thank the people that you've worked with. Um, but at the end of the day, you know,
02:10:52
like we're we're just all people and you know, some of us are lucky enough to be
02:10:59
successful at some things and you know, whether it's academia or whether it's
02:11:03
sporting proess or or whatever it may be. So, doesn't make us any better or any worse than anyone else. It just
02:11:10
means it's who we are. and um through our success uh you know our families benefited and and you know I'm grateful
02:11:19
for that. >> Well, I'm so incredibly grateful and appreciative for your time today. It's
02:11:24
been amazing, mate. And thank you so much. >> Yeah, thanks Norman. I've enjoyed it,
02:11:28
too. So, and I enjoyed the coffee. So, and you didn't even have to pay for it.
02:11:34
>> There he goes. Cheers, Steve. >> Good, man. Thank you.