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EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak

July 13, 2025 / 02:11:54

This episode features Sir Steve Hansen, former head coach of the All Blacks, discussing his experiences in rugby, coaching philosophy, and personal reflections. Key topics include the emotional impact of losses, the importance of teamwork, and the role of family in his life.

Hansen shares insights on the pain of losing, particularly reflecting on the 2019 World Cup and the lessons learned from past defeats. He emphasizes the significance of mental toughness and the work ethic required to succeed in rugby.

He also discusses his relationship with players like Richie McCaw and Aaron Smith, highlighting the importance of trust and support in coaching. Hansen recounts personal stories about his family, including the influence of his parents and his wife, Tash, on his life and career.

Throughout the conversation, Hansen reflects on his growth as a coach and a person, acknowledging his flaws and the ongoing journey of self-improvement. He expresses pride in his accomplishments while recognizing the sacrifices made by his family.

The episode concludes with Hansen sharing his thoughts on legacy, the importance of being a good human being, and the value of relationships in both personal and professional life.

TL;DR

Steve Hansen discusses rugby, coaching, family, and personal growth in this insightful episode.

Episode

2:11:54

00:00:00

The All Blacks are good because they

00:00:02

hurt when they lose. You staff are no

00:00:04

different. I think the fans don't really

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understand how much it does hurt people.

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I remember 207 like that was horrific.

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>> How often do you think about 2019?

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>> Pretty regular

00:00:14

>> really.

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>> Yeah. He was probably not the most

00:00:18

talented rugby player. Definitely the

00:00:20

most best work ethic. Mentally the

00:00:22

toughest. In the end, he was the

00:00:24

greatest rugby player of all time. I

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think he always knew I I wanted to talk

00:00:28

to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have

00:00:29

a cup of tea." So, we went and had a cup

00:00:32

of tea and I said, "You know, I reckon

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there's only one thing that's going to

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stop us winning the World Cup." And he

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said, "What's that?" And I said, "Yeah."

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>> One of the players um in your team in

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Japan is um Aaron Smith.

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>> Like to say huge sorry to my partner,

00:00:49

Tegan.

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>> Why didn't you throw him to the Wolves

00:00:51

at the time?

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>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is

00:00:56

the center of performance. Whenever

00:00:57

there's a top performance in New

00:00:58

Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

00:01:00

Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

00:01:02

for days. That's the boys who got the

00:01:04

hole in one in

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it again.

00:01:09

>> Hey Finn, how's the performance going?

00:01:11

>> Top tier.

00:01:11

>> Nice. This is our generate room. In

00:01:14

here, you'll find our top performers

00:01:15

helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

00:01:17

investments. Get in here Finn. Maximize.

00:01:20

Generate. Putting performance first.

00:01:28

Sir Steve Hansen, welcome to my podcast.

00:01:31

>> Yeah, thanks very much for having us and

00:01:33

just call me Steve and we good things.

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>> Oh, really?

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>> Yeah.

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>> Does the knighthood thing not sit

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comfortably with you or

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>> Oh, it's okay. But, you know, I've

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always been my parents called me Steve

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and that's who I am. So, uh, I think the

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SU thing is a reflection really of a

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whole group of people who worked really

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hard for a long time and got some great

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rugby results. So, um, yeah, it's not

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it's not just mine.

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>> Just before you go any further, I'll

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just check the mic level. Andy, is it

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okay with um Steve sitting back like

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that or

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>> Sorry, I'm going to Yeah, it's

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>> I need this much closer to your mouth if

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you can, Steve.

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>> Big old mob.

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It's very phallic.

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>> Um, so I thank you so much for for

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coming on my podcast. I really

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appreciate it. I reached out to uh one

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of your sons on Instagram.

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>> Yeah. Ollie.

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>> Yeah. Flicked him a random DM and um

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Yeah. How did that conversation go? Did

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he he messaged you and asked you if you

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were keen or

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>> uh he said some guy's reached out and

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wants to do a podcast with you and

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here's his number or something. So

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here we are.

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>> Yeah. So, I I I emailed you and um your

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reply could not have been more

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courteous. Like, you replied um

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apologizing for the um delay. Um and and

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then here we are. And I wasn't sure what

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to expect because there's this sort of

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um

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feels like there's almost like two Steve

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Hansen. Like there's um the Steve Hansen

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that perhaps the media think of and that

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some people seen which is quite an

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intimidating scary guy. And then there's

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the Steve Hansen which if you speak to

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players that you've coached speak about

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which uh sounds like it's the most

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lovely gentle giant imaginable.

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>> Well, I guess that's for other people to

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judge and I just try to be me and uh the

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media and I we had our moments and

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especially early on. um I didn't

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probably handle them that well and

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wasn't until I

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you know got the opportunity to be the

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head coach that I realized that I had to

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do things a bit differently and spent

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some great time with Ian Fraser was a

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wonderful man and a good strategist and

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he straightened me up a we bit on how we

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should approach it. So just became

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easier to just to be myself. So,

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>> m

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>> but you know it is uh it is a a job that

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requires

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um to be open and honest, but it also I

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think it's a job that you've sometimes

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got to protect your player. So, it's a

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fine balance.

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>> I'm looking forward to deconstructing

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all that. Um yeah, the idea of this

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podcast is to try and get a a a portrait

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of the man Steve Hansen. Um not just the

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job that you've you've done. Um even

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though that that job you did it's like

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so fascinating and it's such a big and

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important role especially in New Zealand

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and you you finished at the age of 60

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and you'd been in that role for like

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what was quarter of your life.

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>> Yeah. Well a lot of time but you know

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it's a privilege to be able to coach the

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All Blacks or be part of the All Black

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team and the hardest people or it's

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hardest on the other people in your

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life. you know, they make all the

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sacrifices because they're missing out

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on dad time or husband time or friend

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time. So, for me, that's the reason why

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I gave up in the end because, you know,

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it was time to give back to those

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people.

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>> So, in anticipation of doing this, I got

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hold of a copy of the book um the legacy

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by Gregor Paul.

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>> How how would you describe that? It's

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not like Is it a biog and would you say

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is it is it an authorized biography or

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an unauthorized biography?

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>> Uh well I didn't authorize it but Greger

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and and um can't remember the publishing

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company they wanted to do a book and

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they were at me and at me or the

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publishing company was at me and at me

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and I said no I don't want to write one

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and then they commissioned Greger to

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write one. Um, and then it came down to

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him asking me, "Well, if I do write it,

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would you be prepared to talk to me?"

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And so, well, may as well, if you've got

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questions, I'll talk to you, but it's

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not my book. It's your book. And, uh, I

00:05:45

haven't received any money from it, so

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it's definitely not my book. But, you

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know, it is what it is. And, um, always

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felt that, you know, if you wanted to

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know my story, then just go on Google.

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It's all there. So,

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I'm not into bookw writing. I think, you

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know, a lot of to sell books, people

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have to do things that they normally

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wouldn't do. So,

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>> so that so that have you read that book?

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>> Uh, not really. No.

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>> So, would you would you describe it as a

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great work of fiction?

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>> Uh, well, Greg is a good writer. I think

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he's the best rugby writer out there.

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So, you know, it was an honor to have

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him to write it. And I I guess it's uh a

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reflection on, you know, the group's

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work that we did during that period of

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time to have them want to record uh what

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happened, but um

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now I haven't read it. Parts of it I've

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seen obviously, but I haven't read it.

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No.

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>> So, the book's called The Legacy. Is

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legacy something you you you think

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about?

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>> Not personally, but for the All Blacks,

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I do. I think the there is a legacy with

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the Olex. There's a an understanding

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that you have a responsibility to when

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you enter into that framework

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that you you will have a story told

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about your time there and but the

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greatest story is the All Blacks

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themselves. So, it's team first,

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individual second, but how do you want

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that story to read or be told when you

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finish? And and and uh you know, New

00:07:22

Zealand public's really demanding. They

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want a great story to be told. Um, but

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the unique thing about the All Blacks, I

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think, is the people within it, uh,

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during my time anyway, they all wanted

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it to be a great story and they all

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wanted to be better every day. They

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worked really hard at it. And um you we

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had some wonderful players who drove

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that and um you know people will make

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their own opinions whether we were able

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to be better than we were when we

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started but I think um

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it was a period of rugby where New

00:07:54

Zealand could be proud. I think the team

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and the fans felt like they were united

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and together so

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>> and we had some good results.

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>> And you're immensely proud of that

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period. Yeah, I'm immensely proud of uh

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the hard work that went into doing it

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and um you know the people I worked with

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and and uh you know how hard they worked

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and

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and the achievements they made, the

00:08:21

players, the growth in the players, not

00:08:23

just as rugby players but as men and and

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women because we had women in the group

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as well. So everybody grew together and

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it wasn't always perfect. uh it never is

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in life. You make mistakes and

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>> but if you own those mistakes and and um

00:08:41

you can move on together. So very proud

00:08:44

of it.

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>> There's um a photo from that book, The

00:08:47

Legacy, which I've got um it's a young

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Steve Hansen.

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>> I'm just wondering like when you see

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that photo, how is the man sitting in

00:08:54

front of me today the same? And how is

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he different to that guy?

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Uh well, probably

00:09:03

similar but different. As we all get

00:09:05

older, we get a little bit smarter or

00:09:08

mature. Some would say I've taken a long

00:09:09

time to mature, but um particularly my

00:09:12

wife. But um

00:09:15

look, I

00:09:17

from a mental side of life, I think I'm

00:09:20

a lot stronger than I was back then.

00:09:22

Understood very little. You know, then I

00:09:26

was in a hurry. I wanted to you know

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achieve things and do things and didn't

00:09:33

understand

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um the importance of you know uh

00:09:37

psychology and sport. Um however

00:09:42

uh because of that time I became a

00:09:45

better coach probably.

00:09:48

>> Takes time doesn't it?

00:09:50

>> Oh it does. Yeah. And uh you've been

00:09:52

through it yourself. You know what it's

00:09:54

like. It's life brings things to you

00:09:57

that challenge you and you either deal

00:10:00

with them really well or or you struggle

00:10:02

with them and and then find ways to deal

00:10:05

with them. Well, so

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>> it's not really uh the struggles that

00:10:09

matter. It's it's how you end up dealing

00:10:11

with them.

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>> Mhm.

00:10:14

>> So, you've got many nicknames. Um, one

00:10:16

of them is uh, Shag, which um, from what

00:10:20

I can understand, it's like it's it's

00:10:22

um, it's an exciting nickname, but it's

00:10:24

quite a boring story.

00:10:26

>> It's not that exciting either. Um,

00:10:29

>> no, but the mind the when you hear the

00:10:31

nickname Shag, you think, "Oh, maybe

00:10:33

he's a roofer back in his younger days."

00:10:34

>> Well, no, we don't want to go there. So,

00:10:37

um,

00:10:39

no, the story is really boring,

00:10:41

actually. It was Andrew Mertens who's I

00:10:44

coached both at club level and uh

00:10:46

provincial and so forth. But he uh he

00:10:51

was a young guy uh very smart with a

00:10:54

quip and Steve Chu and I were both

00:10:56

working with Canterbury at the time and

00:10:58

two Steves didn't work so he just said

00:11:00

call him Shag cuz he calls everybody

00:11:02

else Shaq. So boring story. H other

00:11:07

nicknames. I don't know if this is an

00:11:08

authorized one or not, but this was in

00:11:10

the book. Last word. Is that a nickname?

00:11:12

Uh no, there was certainly something

00:11:15

people will say. And

00:11:18

uh you know, particularly when I was

00:11:20

younger, I I'd want to win everything.

00:11:22

And if it was an argument or a

00:11:24

discussion, it would become an argument

00:11:26

and I would want to win it. And so I'd

00:11:28

want the last word. I always used to

00:11:30

say, well, I can say the last word

00:11:32

because I've got the,

00:11:34

you know, I can find the last thing to

00:11:36

say. But in the end, you sort of grow up

00:11:38

and you work out, well, you're not

00:11:40

wanting anything really. You're only

00:11:41

getting the last word cuz everyone's

00:11:42

sick of it or they've left and you're

00:11:44

only there talking to yourself. So, but

00:11:48

>> you do have a sharp sharp mind and a

00:11:50

sharp tongue. H have you have you ever

00:11:52

lost an argument?

00:11:54

>> Oh, lose plenty of time.

00:11:58

Yeah, certainly not the boss at home.

00:12:01

>> Okay. And one one more nickname. Um

00:12:03

Stanley.

00:12:06

>> What's that? Like an old is an alter

00:12:07

ego? Is it a nickname? What is it?

00:12:08

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's as of recent times.

00:12:11

And again, that's the competitive side

00:12:13

of me. Um

00:12:15

good friends of ours down in Monica. She

00:12:18

uh Peanut and and um

00:12:23

Duchy Vermuan uh and Peanut name

00:12:27

Stanley. She said, "Oh, Stanley's coming

00:12:29

out to play." Um and it stucks and you

00:12:34

know, again, it's interesting because

00:12:36

you learn sometimes you can be too

00:12:38

competitive and and sometimes it's okay

00:12:41

to let other people win. So, but yeah,

00:12:44

Stanley is probably the the one that

00:12:48

stuck around the most.

00:12:50

>> What does Stanley look like? Is he a Is

00:12:52

he a sore loser? Is he a um is he a

00:12:55

confrontational winner? What is he?

00:12:57

>> Uh he's not a confrontational winner and

00:12:59

he's not a sore loser. He's just in the

00:13:01

fight when the fight's on and then when

00:13:03

it's over, it's over. But, you know,

00:13:05

he'll do whatever he has to do to win, I

00:13:07

guess. And yeah, so we have to keep him

00:13:10

under control. Are you are you just

00:13:12

ruthlessly competitive about everything?

00:13:15

>> It would appear that way. Yeah.

00:13:17

>> Yeah.

00:13:19

>> I've read stories about like numerous

00:13:21

other All Blacks over the years. Like

00:13:22

you you hear about someone like say Zan

00:13:24

Brookke and had have competitions about

00:13:26

who could make a cup of tea the fastest.

00:13:28

So you there'd be two bits of

00:13:30

condensation running down a glass pane

00:13:32

and had want to have bets on that. Is

00:13:34

that Does that sound familiar?

00:13:36

>> Uh yeah. Yeah, I try and avoid making a

00:13:38

cup of tea if I could, but um

00:13:44

there's a I play for a golf trophy with

00:13:46

a friend of mine um and it came about

00:13:50

because we were playing for five bucks.

00:13:52

It was the money wasn't the problem, but

00:13:54

we played into the dark because I wanted

00:13:57

to win. Whoever won the last hole won

00:14:00

and I kept I'd win or get back to all

00:14:04

square. And I just wouldn't give up

00:14:06

until he said, "Oh, for Christ sake, you

00:14:08

just win the hole so we can go."

00:14:10

And so he framed it. He framed it. And

00:14:14

uh so yeah, it's I just want to win.

00:14:17

Yeah. And I I I I'm not a a person who

00:14:23

enters into something to lose. Um, and

00:14:26

it's been,

00:14:29

you know, with me since childhood

00:14:30

really, I guess. And, uh, at times it

00:14:33

gets in the way. Um, early on, we're a

00:14:37

blended family. And early on,

00:14:40

uh, I guess playing cards with the kids,

00:14:42

like all of a sudden no one wants to

00:14:44

play cards with Steve, so Stanley

00:14:46

obviously was out and about then. So,

00:14:49

you know, it's just learning to relax

00:14:52

and enjoy it rather than be so

00:14:55

competitive.

00:14:56

>> Are you still like that now as a man in

00:14:57

your 60s or is it dimmed a bit?

00:15:00

>> Uh, it's probably under control a bit. I

00:15:02

don't know if it's dimmed, but it's

00:15:04

control.

00:15:05

>> It's still a work on.

00:15:06

>> Yeah, it is.

00:15:08

>> That's because I used to be like that,

00:15:09

like ruthlessly competitive. And then

00:15:11

with things that I had no no reasonable

00:15:14

right to be competitive about. Like I

00:15:15

play golf and I'd throw my clubs and I'd

00:15:17

throw tantrums and it's like I'm not

00:15:19

Ryan Fox. I'm not Tiger Woods. I've got

00:15:21

no right to think that was going to be a

00:15:22

good shot.

00:15:24

>> I'm not a I'm not a club thrower or

00:15:26

anything like that. Like I don't sulk

00:15:27

about it. I just I'm in the fight, you

00:15:30

know, and

00:15:33

there's no reason for me to be like that

00:15:35

other than it's about well I I want to

00:15:38

say I won and

00:15:40

>> I don't know why I'm like that but but I

00:15:43

I understand I am and I understand that

00:15:46

at certain times it's got to be

00:15:47

controlled but it was okay uh

00:15:51

you know when it really mattered and we

00:15:53

needed to win it was a it was a great

00:15:55

attribute but at other times

00:15:58

Um, you know, I had to learn that it

00:16:00

wasn't about the result, it was about

00:16:02

the process early on in my coaching

00:16:04

career. And, you know, was a wonderful

00:16:07

thing to learn because once you learn

00:16:09

that the process is more important than

00:16:11

the outcome, you then get to focus on

00:16:13

the right stuff rather than the outcome.

00:16:16

>> I heard a quote from you, I think this

00:16:18

was on another podcast, um, that with

00:16:20

most humans, their greatest strength is

00:16:21

also their greatest weakness.

00:16:23

>> Yeah.

00:16:23

>> Is that is that what it would be for

00:16:24

you? Oh, 100%. You know, um I I can

00:16:29

remember a couple of times even with the

00:16:31

the All Blacks when

00:16:34

or when coaching once was with

00:16:36

Canterbury and once with the All Blacks

00:16:37

and we'd been successful um with

00:16:41

Canterbury and I came back and coached

00:16:43

poorly because it was all about the

00:16:44

results and ended up having to apologize

00:16:46

to the group the next year because I was

00:16:49

the person who was making it too hard

00:16:51

for them to be able to to do their job.

00:16:54

and I come out come focus and the same

00:16:56

thing happened one season in the all

00:16:58

black so one part of the all black

00:17:01

season um and once it becomes about

00:17:06

yourself or becomes about the result you

00:17:08

just don't lose control of of what you

00:17:11

really need to be doing so

00:17:13

>> again had to apologize and

00:17:16

>> give yourself an up and get on with it

00:17:18

again you know

00:17:19

>> I love those oneliners they where they

00:17:22

come from they from your your dad days

00:17:23

There's so many. There's um the one

00:17:26

about um you reporters saying that they

00:17:29

never make statues of critics or

00:17:31

reporters.

00:17:32

>> Um

00:17:33

>> that was a that was uh Jim Kay's I think

00:17:37

he

00:17:37

>> Oh, no. I've got the Jim K one. You're

00:17:39

like Jim, you you've been on TV for 3

00:17:40

minutes and you think your [ __ ] don't

00:17:42

stick.

00:17:42

>> Yeah. Well, that was that came from the

00:17:45

statue on

00:17:47

during a period of time when I was

00:17:49

assistant coach and

00:17:52

uh

00:17:54

we um we were struggling to win line out

00:17:57

ball and I was in charge of line outs.

00:17:58

But people didn't understand. They just

00:18:02

look at the result and they don't

00:18:03

understand that if you've only got two

00:18:04

locks, it's pretty easy to shut down

00:18:06

your line out if you only got two

00:18:07

jumpers. And at that stage, we had two

00:18:09

jumpers. cuz we had Jerry Collins

00:18:13

uh who wasn't a line out forward, didn't

00:18:15

want to be a line out forward. Um and we

00:18:17

had Richie just learning to jump and

00:18:19

Rodney just so just learn to jump. So

00:18:22

and South Africa had uh Bakies and and

00:18:25

Victor who were very very good line out

00:18:27

fors anyway. They shut they were

00:18:28

shutting us down all over the place to

00:18:30

the point where I think Bies have won

00:18:32

Tess and and Hamilton. They won the

00:18:35

first three lineups. We won the the

00:18:38

fourth one and and um Peter Davilius

00:18:41

intercepted a pass between Mar and

00:18:44

Conrad and scored under the bar and and

00:18:47

Buckyy's run back and went past Victor.

00:18:49

He said, "Oh, I think we should let them

00:18:50

win some more lineups."

00:18:53

So anyway, uh we were getting heavily

00:18:56

criticized and with all of us, the

00:18:59

players were and and as was I and I

00:19:02

didn't I don't mind criticism of myself

00:19:04

because you know I can deal with that

00:19:07

but I don't like them particularly when

00:19:09

they don't know the full story and they

00:19:10

don't want to hear the full story.

00:19:13

However, um went to this press

00:19:15

conference and

00:19:17

something about critics came up from Jim

00:19:19

Kay's and Andrew Chev was there too.

00:19:22

Both of whom I now get on really well

00:19:24

with and I said, "Well, Jack Gibson, the

00:19:27

old league coach said, you know, they

00:19:29

don't build statues for critics." And

00:19:31

then Jim Case couldn't help himself. He

00:19:33

he goes, "Do you think they'll build one

00:19:35

for you?" And I said, "No, I don't. I

00:19:38

don't think they'll build one for you

00:19:39

either, Jim." And walked off. And Z said

00:19:42

something as well which I didn't forget

00:19:45

for a while. And and uh

00:19:47

>> what did he say?

00:19:48

>> Oh, he said something. Can you He asked

00:19:50

me if we were bringing people in to

00:19:51

help. And we'd had a lot of people in.

00:19:54

What we needed to do was just get better

00:19:56

at what we were trying to do and it

00:19:58

takes time.

00:20:00

>> And he said, "Could I look myself in the

00:20:02

mirror?" And of course he had a bed. And

00:20:03

I said, "You have a shave every day."

00:20:05

Said, "You know what about yourself?"

00:20:06

And so it was like a boxing match

00:20:10

really. And

00:20:13

of course the pens mightier than the

00:20:15

sword. So I came a distant second. But I

00:20:19

uh carried it for a while and I think I

00:20:22

let loose at Jimmy and Mar

00:20:25

at one training run. He it just went

00:20:29

left when it should have probably gone

00:20:31

nowhere but and he cpped it. So, and

00:20:34

then after that, that's when I went and

00:20:36

saw

00:20:38

Fraser

00:20:39

>> and we had a cup of coffee with uh well,

00:20:41

I had a co coffee with Jimmy and we had

00:20:44

a talked our way through it and anyway,

00:20:47

we

00:20:48

>> got where we got to in the end.

00:20:49

>> Yeah, I was going to I was going to um

00:20:52

get to that later in the piece, but

00:20:53

since we're there, we may as well get on

00:20:54

to it now. So, um you're seeing Ian

00:20:56

Fraser um who's a respected journalist

00:20:58

and former CEO of TVNZ. Did that um like

00:21:02

was someone higher up than you in the

00:21:04

NZ? Are you were they like Steve you

00:21:05

need to work on your relationship with

00:21:07

the media or is it something that you

00:21:09

thought was necessary?

00:21:11

>> Uh I knew that

00:21:13

the media and I weren't getting on well.

00:21:16

Um I was fighting them and

00:21:19

you know they

00:21:21

they were having cracks and then I' I'd

00:21:24

come back out rather than being

00:21:26

informative with them and and um

00:21:28

trusting them. I I wasn't. And so it

00:21:32

was, you know, it was tip for tat

00:21:34

really. And as I said before, like they

00:21:36

get the last say cuz they get it's in

00:21:38

print and everybody believes it whether

00:21:41

it's true or not. Um so I knew I had to

00:21:44

go and do something especially if I was

00:21:45

going to become the head coach.

00:21:48

And um it was around that time I thought

00:21:50

well who will I go and see? And

00:21:53

I always admired Ian. He was from Otago

00:21:56

as same as myself. my mogill boy. So, we

00:22:01

hit it off really well. Um, and

00:22:06

we spent a lot of time together and and

00:22:09

uh our relationship became really close

00:22:11

and I trust him a lot and you know we

00:22:15

would talk our way through things and

00:22:18

but you know his big message was just be

00:22:20

yourself and

00:22:23

and be as honest as you can be and then

00:22:25

if you can't be honest then tell them

00:22:26

you can't be honest about that and it's

00:22:28

not something we need we can talk about.

00:22:30

But was it was it about softening the

00:22:32

edges or

00:22:33

>> Well, that happened

00:22:36

um more

00:22:39

as a result of the change of the mindset

00:22:41

really. No, and again, I'd met Ian

00:22:45

probably need to explain that a little

00:22:48

bit. I met Ian through a coaching

00:22:50

accelerator course I was on that was run

00:22:51

by New Zealand High Performance

00:22:54

and had done a a um a session with the

00:22:59

whole group. Um and uh you know I

00:23:03

thought well here's a guy that's talking

00:23:04

a bit of sense here. So that's where we

00:23:07

tapped into it. But I think the mindset

00:23:09

was the biggest thing that you know

00:23:10

they're not the enemy. They're actually

00:23:13

a group of people who are there to pass

00:23:18

on the messages that you want them to

00:23:20

pass on to the public. And

00:23:24

so once I started thinking about what's

00:23:26

the messages I want for the public to

00:23:28

hear regardless of the question they

00:23:30

asked, I just used to answer the

00:23:32

question that I wanted to answer.

00:23:33

>> And sometimes I would ask questions I

00:23:35

didn't want to answer. So, I just go

00:23:37

back to, okay, well, here's the two or

00:23:39

three things that I really want to get

00:23:42

people to understand about this team or

00:23:44

this player or or this decision. So, I

00:23:47

just go there and and invariably

00:23:51

they would leave the question they'd ask

00:23:53

because I'd given them something that

00:23:55

was better for them to write about

00:23:57

anyway.

00:24:00

>> Was it was that a hard change? see seems

00:24:01

like quite a significant sort of almost

00:24:04

personality change in a way.

00:24:07

>> Uh I think it might have been harder if

00:24:09

I'd still been the assistant coach, but

00:24:11

because I took over as head coach, you

00:24:14

sort of it's quite easy to mold your own

00:24:16

media plan. So

00:24:19

>> um and it's easier to lead that than to

00:24:22

follow it. M

00:24:23

>> you know um there's times when

00:24:27

there would be things I would maybe want

00:24:29

to say but I couldn't say because we're

00:24:32

allowed to say whereas when you're the

00:24:36

at the top of the tree you can say what

00:24:38

you want to say

00:24:39

>> within reason.

00:24:41

>> Speaking of press conferences there it's

00:24:43

it's unrelated to the media in a way but

00:24:45

um it's just like a sort of viral moment

00:24:47

that I saw on TikTok. Um and I wanted to

00:24:49

know if this was um a slip or

00:24:51

deliberate. So it's uh I think it's you

00:24:54

Richie Mccor maybe Ian Fost on the other

00:24:56

side of you and there's you struggle

00:24:58

with the airpiece

00:25:00

>> I don't know what it was and Richie's

00:25:02

trying to um fiddle with your um your

00:25:04

dial to get the volume up and you you

00:25:06

you you drop an Fbomb in a press

00:25:08

conference. Was that um for comedic

00:25:11

purposes or was that a slip or

00:25:14

>> Oh, no. I think it was just reality and

00:25:17

and uh it's quite a descriptive word.

00:25:19

So, I probably used it when I shouldn't

00:25:21

have, but

00:25:24

luckily enough, we had enough uh

00:25:26

goodwill in the media at that point to

00:25:28

be able to cope with it.

00:25:29

>> Uh it it's it's a really good moment.

00:25:30

Like, it's just so you just don't see an

00:25:33

All Black uh head coach dropping an

00:25:34

Fbomb at a press conference. So, um, you

00:25:37

know, there was something really

00:25:38

endearing about it.

00:25:39

>> Well, we just tried to be as natural as

00:25:41

we could.

00:25:42

>> And, you know, like the whole aim of

00:25:46

what Ian and I wanted to do from a media

00:25:48

point of view was to just be a normal

00:25:51

New Zealander.

00:25:53

And, uh,

00:25:55

you know, that's I guess I I it's

00:25:58

probably why I prefer Steve rather than

00:26:00

Sir Steve. You know, just we're just

00:26:02

normal people. I just happen to be okay

00:26:05

at coaching a footy team and very lucky

00:26:08

to be able to coach a very very good

00:26:10

footy team with a lot of other good uh

00:26:13

staff.

00:26:15

>> I I've had a few sers on on the podcast.

00:26:17

Um you you corrected me, told me just

00:26:20

Steve will do. Um Sir Peter Beck said

00:26:22

exactly the same thing. Just call me

00:26:24

Pete. Um I think Sir Peter Leech is the

00:26:26

only one that insisted on

00:26:30

on being called sir. Uh that it's quite

00:26:33

an honor though, right? Like getting a

00:26:35

getting a nighthood for for doing what

00:26:37

you love and doing it at such a high

00:26:39

level.

00:26:40

>> It is. And

00:26:43

when you get the letter, you know, I

00:26:45

know I spent a lot of time um

00:26:50

actually

00:26:51

making the decision. Am I going to

00:26:53

accept this or not?

00:26:55

>> Really?

00:26:55

>> Yeah. And

00:26:58

it wasn't until

00:27:01

my wife and Ian actually

00:27:04

pointed out, well, it's not just about

00:27:06

accepting it for yourself. And once I

00:27:10

got my head around that, it was easy to

00:27:12

say yes because

00:27:16

yeah, okay, you're the head coach and

00:27:18

but you're really only one part of the

00:27:23

wheel spoke. there's many spokes and

00:27:25

there's many parts of it that make the

00:27:28

team become what it was.

00:27:31

Um, and I just had the privilege of

00:27:33

leading that group. Um, so on once I got

00:27:36

my head around, well, actually I'm I'm

00:27:38

representing them by saying yes.

00:27:42

Um, you know, it was easy, but up until

00:27:44

then I had, to be fair, I just struggle

00:27:47

with it a week.

00:27:47

>> Yeah. Do you do you have like a like a

00:27:50

man cave or an office at home with

00:27:52

things in like your like your metal the

00:27:55

knife metal or

00:27:56

>> Well, we got a

00:27:58

a man cave with a bar and and uh and a

00:28:02

few things in it and the office is just

00:28:04

off that and my wife actually did the

00:28:07

office and there's a few rugby things in

00:28:09

that. Yeah, there's a bit of memorabilia

00:28:11

there but

00:28:11

>> like what?

00:28:13

>> Uh there's a bit of horse racing stuff.

00:28:15

Uh we're lucky enough to own a very good

00:28:16

raceh horse called Nature Strip. Uh

00:28:18

there's some photos of of moments. Um

00:28:22

now the two World Cups photos are up

00:28:24

there. Uh there's a rugby jersey that

00:28:27

the team gave gave me when I left.

00:28:30

>> Yeah,

00:28:31

>> that's about it, I think.

00:28:33

>> Yeah.

00:28:33

>> Lots of photos of the kids.

00:28:35

>> How do you feel when you see that stuff

00:28:36

now? Like I feel like you're a man

00:28:38

that's um got like got a growth mindset.

00:28:39

So even though you're in your mid60s

00:28:41

now, you're still like looking forward

00:28:42

to what's next. Um you do you do you

00:28:45

allow yourself reflective moments and

00:28:48

>> uh yeah I think it's important to

00:28:49

reflect every now and again. Um

00:28:52

you know and like you can reflect easy

00:28:55

on the stuff that got away like I think

00:28:58

2019 got away from us. One bad week cost

00:29:02

us the an opportunity to be in the final

00:29:05

and everyone said we played poorly in

00:29:08

290 but we didn't. We beat three sides

00:29:10

that were number one in the world going

00:29:11

into the World Cup or as a at the end of

00:29:14

the World Cup. Ireland, Wales, and South

00:29:17

Africa who who won it. But we didn't

00:29:21

have a great England week and and and we

00:29:24

didn't have a great performance because

00:29:25

of it. And and I I reflect a lot on that

00:29:29

week. What could I have done different?

00:29:31

Could have made some different

00:29:32

selections.

00:29:34

Um ratty ratty ra. And then I've got to

00:29:36

bring myself back to, okay, well, you

00:29:38

got one week wrong, but maybe you got a

00:29:41

few other ones right. So,

00:29:44

you know, but that's the competitive

00:29:45

side again, too, cuz you want to win

00:29:47

everything. And the All Blacks are good

00:29:50

because they want to be

00:29:53

they hurt when they lose

00:29:55

>> and you know, the staff are no

00:29:56

different.

00:29:58

some some other um guests on the

00:30:01

podcast, Shane Cameron for example, he

00:30:03

he told me he thought about the loss to

00:30:05

David Tu every day for like seven years.

00:30:07

>> Yeah.

00:30:07

>> Uh Dion Nash, he said sometimes in the

00:30:10

shower, even now he'll think about you

00:30:12

things that happened like 20 years ago

00:30:13

on the cricket pitch. Um how often do

00:30:16

you think about 2019?

00:30:19

>> Pretty regular

00:30:20

>> really.

00:30:20

>> Yeah. as in oh

00:30:24

probably once a month or you know if

00:30:26

you're talking about things or

00:30:30

you know World Cup comes around you

00:30:32

think about it a bit more often but you

00:30:35

know I'm at peace with it as I said just

00:30:37

a minute ago I think

00:30:40

if you can acknowledge to yourself oh

00:30:42

okay we could have done that week better

00:30:44

and here's the things I would have done

00:30:45

better and and um

00:30:49

then you can acknowledge yourself. Oh,

00:30:52

actually, but that was one week out of I

00:30:54

don't know how many years I was there

00:30:55

for, so can't remember, but it was a lot

00:30:58

of weeks and we must have got a lot of

00:31:00

weeks right cuz we

00:31:02

>> we only dropped 10 games in that whole

00:31:04

period. So,

00:31:06

okay. Well, is it the end of the world?

00:31:09

No. But would you have liked to have won

00:31:11

it? Yes.

00:31:14

But did we do okay? Yeah, we did. So,

00:31:16

and then I move on and don't think about

00:31:18

it for a while.

00:31:20

I I think think members of the public

00:31:22

and people listening to this will

00:31:23

probably be um yeah pleased to to hear

00:31:25

that it still hurts you to a degree. You

00:31:27

know what I mean?

00:31:28

>> Yeah. Look, I think it's a misconception

00:31:32

around

00:31:35

uh I think the fans don't really

00:31:37

understand how much it does hurt people.

00:31:39

And I remember 207 like that was

00:31:42

horrific to get knocked out in the

00:31:45

quarterfinals when we were the best team

00:31:47

in the world at at that point. and we

00:31:50

just

00:31:52

didn't go to that World Cup

00:31:55

understanding what it takes to win one,

00:31:57

but losing it created,

00:32:00

you know, a a uh a learning opportunity

00:32:03

which allowed us to win two after that.

00:32:06

So,

00:32:07

>> but you you know, people would say to

00:32:09

me, "Oh, you realize, you know, I went

00:32:12

over to watch that and you guys went

00:32:13

there."

00:32:15

And I'd think I just quietly shake my

00:32:17

head and think to myself, well, yeah,

00:32:19

I'm pretty bloody keen to be there

00:32:20

ourselves, mate. So,

00:32:23

>> yeah. Sorry for ruining your holiday.

00:32:24

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You still got a

00:32:26

holiday, but we got one we didn't want.

00:32:30

>> Um, you you mentioned um the horse

00:32:32

racing thing before in your horse uh

00:32:34

nature strip. So, I think now's probably

00:32:35

a good time to go back to the early

00:32:36

years. So, um yeah, young Steve Hansen

00:32:39

from Mosgill. Um you wanted to be a

00:32:41

jockey.

00:32:42

>> I did. I uh my father was a um owner

00:32:48

trainer. We had a dairy farm. Um he had

00:32:52

many jobs but then he became a farmer

00:32:54

and dairy farmer there for a while. And

00:32:57

um we trained horses and I was small

00:33:00

enough in those days to ride them. And I

00:33:03

still uh think sometimes

00:33:07

in a different life I might have ended

00:33:09

up being a horse trainer. Uh cuz I just

00:33:11

I love the animal. I love the the the

00:33:14

racing scene and the people in it and um

00:33:18

but yeah, jockey would have been good.

00:33:20

>> Just sort of outgrew that, Dom, I not

00:33:23

sure what happened, but

00:33:26

>> not you. Could you be um like a sulky?

00:33:29

>> No. Do you still need to be little for

00:33:30

that?

00:33:32

>> I could have done that, but that didn't

00:33:33

I like riding them rather than sitting

00:33:35

behind them.

00:33:35

>> Yeah. So, your dad your dad de um sounds

00:33:39

like he was an amazing man. Uh I I heard

00:33:42

a quote from Mike Cron, the um scrum

00:33:44

guru, saying that sometimes when he

00:33:45

shuts his eyes, um he could swear like

00:33:48

you were de. Is that where the the

00:33:51

oneliners came from?

00:33:52

>> Oh, he's pretty good with oneliners. Our

00:33:55

whole his whole side of uh our family

00:33:58

are

00:34:00

comedians, I guess, but u sharp and with

00:34:05

the oneliners or we ditties and he had

00:34:08

heaps of them. So, um, growing up with

00:34:11

him, we spent a lot of time, uh,

00:34:14

together and,

00:34:16

um, I guess it just rubbed off and

00:34:18

>> Mhm.

00:34:19

>> Chrono's not too bad with oneliners

00:34:21

himself. So, him and dad spent a lot of

00:34:23

time together, too. Um, once we moved to

00:34:27

Christ Church and they did a lot of

00:34:28

coaching together.

00:34:30

>> So, yeah. Know,

00:34:32

>> what was the relationship with with your

00:34:34

dad and Andrew Mertens? I read a story

00:34:36

somewhere that like Mertz would just go

00:34:37

around and visit him and have cups of

00:34:39

tea or a beer.

00:34:40

>> Oh, everybody used to go around and see

00:34:41

him.

00:34:42

>> Is that right? Was he quite like quite

00:34:43

an identity?

00:34:45

>> I don't know if he was an identity. He

00:34:46

was just somebody that people were

00:34:48

endeared to. Um he he loved talking

00:34:52

about footy. He he was a man who was

00:34:55

before his time and his thinking about

00:34:57

the game. Um he challenged you as a

00:35:01

rugby player or as a coach to think

00:35:03

about

00:35:05

things in a bigger sense than just in

00:35:09

the one moment or

00:35:12

uh you know and like I we our dairy farm

00:35:16

was seven

00:35:18

and a half miles from Mosgill. So if we

00:35:22

played a home game, I got a 7 and 1/2

00:35:24

mile ride home in the car getting talked

00:35:26

to about how I could have done this or

00:35:28

what could I have done or how could we

00:35:31

have done something different or if it

00:35:33

was a game in Dened and it was twice as

00:35:36

long. So I got twice as long in the car.

00:35:37

So

00:35:40

and at the time you don't appreciate how

00:35:42

much teaching he's giving you. You

00:35:45

you're you're probably thinking, you

00:35:46

know, he's just

00:35:48

you can't do anything right. So you

00:35:50

become a little bit victimlike, but you

00:35:53

as you reflect on it later and as you

00:35:55

get older and mature, you understand,

00:35:57

well actually he's challenging me to

00:35:58

think here. And that's what he did all

00:36:00

his coaching. And he didn't give you the

00:36:03

answer. You had to find the answer

00:36:04

yourself. And it was probably something

00:36:06

I took with me right through my own

00:36:09

coaching. Like I wanted players to be

00:36:10

able to think for themselves as opposed

00:36:12

to me telling them.

00:36:15

>> Actually, that's something a lot of

00:36:16

people say about you. like they have a

00:36:17

conversation with you and you want them

00:36:19

to figure out the answer rather than you

00:36:21

just like tell them how it is.

00:36:23

>> Well, if they figure it out, then they

00:36:25

own it.

00:36:25

>> No, you know,

00:36:28

to me it was always a better way than

00:36:30

like we're doing this and and not and

00:36:32

you not knowing why we're doing it or

00:36:34

how we do it.

00:36:34

>> Yeah.

00:36:36

>> Yeah.

00:36:37

>> So, um your first job freezing work

00:36:40

inspector.

00:36:41

>> Meat inspector. Yeah. Um I had a job for

00:36:44

6 months before that which was at a

00:36:46

place called Spotlight Poles in Hornby

00:36:48

and it was horrific. It was the worst

00:36:50

job ever but it was until such time as I

00:36:53

could was after finishing school and and

00:36:56

joining the meet inspector I had to wait

00:36:59

um 6 months sorry to join. So I did that

00:37:02

and then went to the freezing works as

00:37:04

meat inspector was great. um some

00:37:07

wonderful wonderful characters in the

00:37:08

freezing works and it was a great

00:37:10

learning uh curve cuz you just didn't

00:37:13

judge people at all. You had to f treat

00:37:16

them as you found them and everyone has

00:37:18

their own story and you don't know their

00:37:20

story until you take time to work them

00:37:23

out. So there was some good men there.

00:37:28

>> How did you not stay there? I'm I'm just

00:37:30

thinking um I had some friends that left

00:37:32

school at the same time as me and there

00:37:33

was a freezing works just outside of

00:37:34

Palmerston North Long Freezing Works and

00:37:36

they uh if you were unskilled you could

00:37:38

go there and it was quite highly paid

00:37:39

work.

00:37:40

>> Yeah, it was great.

00:37:41

>> A lot of a lot of my mates I say a lot

00:37:43

like three of them end up getting sort

00:37:44

of stuck there

00:37:46

>> um because the money was good and Yeah.

00:37:48

How did you have the drive to pull

00:37:49

yourself out of that and do something

00:37:50

else?

00:37:51

>> Uh wasn't so much a drive to pull myself

00:37:53

out of it because I I loved it. I I

00:37:55

thought you know this it was a

00:37:57

university in its own right.

00:38:00

It was University of Life. So I I don't

00:38:02

see myself having to pull myself out of

00:38:04

it. But

00:38:05

>> what changed was I decided that

00:38:09

>> um I went overseas to play footy and

00:38:12

when I came back uh I just went in a

00:38:15

different direction. So, and then I

00:38:17

wanted to I did some sales repping and

00:38:21

um worked for a a company called Smith

00:38:24

Klein and Nordon, which was a drug

00:38:27

company selling drugs to vets like

00:38:30

drenches and and um

00:38:34

dog vaccines, cat vaccines. So, you and

00:38:37

that in itself was another learning

00:38:39

curve because you had to I'm not a great

00:38:42

cold caller.

00:38:43

I warm up to people, but you had to

00:38:45

learn to actually find ways to to break

00:38:48

down the barriers to be able to even get

00:38:50

in to speak to the vet, let alone before

00:38:52

you got, you know, once you get in

00:38:55

there. Otherwise, you couldn't sell

00:38:56

anything. So, that that was wonderful.

00:38:58

And then again, I went back overseas and

00:39:01

wanted to play footie overseas. I played

00:39:03

in France and then I came back and uh I

00:39:07

thought, right, oh, well, I'd always

00:39:09

thought about the police force, but I

00:39:11

didn't want to join when I was young. I

00:39:12

wanted to join when I was older and and

00:39:15

had a few more life skills and so I

00:39:17

ended up joining that and

00:39:20

um initially got rejected cuz I had uh

00:39:23

um melanoma on my back and they didn't

00:39:26

want me. They thought I was going to

00:39:27

die. So

00:39:29

we uh convinced them that wasn't going

00:39:30

to be the case. So then got in and and

00:39:33

uh I worked there for six years. Then I

00:39:35

became a coach.

00:39:38

>> Best and worst days on the job as a

00:39:40

police constable.

00:39:42

Uh best days are

00:39:45

uh you know when you're helping people.

00:39:48

Worst days are when you know you've got

00:39:50

to go and talk to people who have lost

00:39:52

somebody in their life and it's not

00:39:54

easy. So

00:39:56

>> tough.

00:39:57

>> Yeah. Uh what did you learn about human

00:39:59

behavior in that role that you were able

00:40:01

to take into coaching?

00:40:04

>> Yeah, that's a really good question. Um

00:40:08

obviously a number of things. one

00:40:11

reinforced what I'd learned in the

00:40:13

freezing works that everyone's got their

00:40:15

own story. So don't don't be too

00:40:17

judgmental.

00:40:19

Don't rock into something and and and

00:40:23

not know the facts before you make big

00:40:25

decisions about who's right and who's

00:40:27

wrong. Um

00:40:30

because I was a little older, I knew and

00:40:32

understood that people make mistakes. So

00:40:35

again,

00:40:37

don't be black and white. there's always

00:40:39

a little bit of gray in life and and um

00:40:42

so be a little bit empathetic um and

00:40:48

guiding rather than forceful. And the

00:40:51

last one was, you know, if you go in at

00:40:52

a 10, then it's only going to stay at

00:40:54

10. So, you're better to go in at a one

00:40:56

and and let it escalate if it has to.

00:40:58

But, um yeah, so calm. Just stay calm

00:41:02

and we'll see where it goes.

00:41:05

Um, why didn't you stay there and go

00:41:07

through the the ranks?

00:41:09

>> Oh, well, professional rugby came about

00:41:12

and uh I got the opportunity to coach

00:41:15

and

00:41:16

for me that was more exciting than being

00:41:18

a policeman.

00:41:19

>> Mhm. Yeah. Where where here is this sort

00:41:20

of mid to late 90s?

00:41:22

>> Yeah, late

00:41:27

90.

00:41:28

So I went in and so it's about 96 I left

00:41:31

I think six years there. today.

00:41:34

>> Yeah, I think you sort of touched upon

00:41:35

this um in the beginning of the chat. Um

00:41:38

or yeah, I've definitely heard about in

00:41:40

another interview you've done. Um in

00:41:42

your second year as Canterbury coach,

00:41:43

you described yourself as a prick.

00:41:45

>> Yeah. Well, that was the period I was

00:41:47

talking about before where I become

00:41:48

outcome focused and and really coached

00:41:51

poorly because it cuz I was too

00:41:53

demanding and

00:41:55

>> there wasn't a lot of uh care of the

00:41:58

athlete or or the approach was was wrong

00:42:03

and it was a good learning curve and it

00:42:05

read its head again later in life but

00:42:08

only the once so and I managed to see it

00:42:10

a lot quicker so dealt with it. Who who

00:42:13

was who was in the team then that we'

00:42:15

we'd know of uh when you called yourself

00:42:16

a pro? Was Razer in the team then?

00:42:18

>> Yeah. Yeah. Razer was there. Back at her

00:42:20

and Marshy merch

00:42:23

very good sort.

00:42:24

>> Yeah. How would they reflect on that? So

00:42:25

say if Razer Robertson was here and say

00:42:28

Kieran Reed um you're both you know

00:42:31

fantastic guys who had you at very very

00:42:33

different stages of your career.

00:42:35

>> Like what would what would their

00:42:37

respective views be about your coaching

00:42:38

style?

00:42:40

>> Uh not too sure. Oh man, you probably

00:42:42

have to ask him. Razer, I know.

00:42:45

Ra Razer was uh Razer, as we all know.

00:42:49

He's

00:42:51

a little different and

00:42:54

>> Yeah. What was he like as a as he

00:42:56

>> as a player? He would be just 100 miles

00:42:59

an hour and no control. We had another

00:43:03

player at the time called Angus Gardner

00:43:05

who was a very very good player and they

00:43:08

both played seven and um so some games

00:43:12

we would start

00:43:14

uh Angus ahead of Razer because Razer's

00:43:17

energy was better coming off the bench

00:43:19

and then other days it would be you know

00:43:22

you start Razer because he he needed to

00:43:25

learn how to start a game and control

00:43:27

himself

00:43:28

>> and probably how I communicated that to

00:43:31

um didn't press his buttons, you know,

00:43:36

and uh one day he finally told me. He

00:43:38

said, "Well, Steve, that's not helping

00:43:39

me." And I said, "What? You know,

00:43:41

Christ, why don't you tell me?" He

00:43:44

waited. And he he knew I was pissed off.

00:43:46

And he said, "Oh, I shouldn't have told

00:43:48

you cuz you're pissed off." I'm not

00:43:49

pissed off you told me. I'm pissed off

00:43:50

you've waited 6 months to tell me cuz

00:43:53

we've wasted 6 months of you learning.

00:43:56

And so, you know, it was a good learning

00:43:59

curve that everybody's not the same and

00:44:01

everybody needs a a different button

00:44:05

sometimes than than just this one.

00:44:07

>> M

00:44:08

>> and some need a cuddle, some need a a

00:44:11

kick up the bum and and some, you know,

00:44:14

can cope with both

00:44:16

>> and so forth. So,

00:44:18

uh what would Rita say? Rita would

00:44:20

probably say, "Yeah, he's not too bad at

00:44:24

doing that, but you know, sometimes he

00:44:27

doesn't get it right." And and I'd agree

00:44:29

with him. Like, you don't get it right

00:44:30

all the time as a coach.

00:44:32

>> You don't get it all the right all the

00:44:33

time as a parent. Um, but

00:44:36

>> that's life, isn't it?

00:44:37

>> Well, yeah. And it comes from a place of

00:44:38

love and care

00:44:41

and and wanting uh the best for the

00:44:44

athlete or your child. and and sometimes

00:44:48

it hurts. You know, they don't like it,

00:44:50

but you're not there to be their best

00:44:52

friend. You're there to be their coach.

00:44:54

And and their job is to allow themselves

00:44:58

to be coached. It's the ones that don't

00:45:00

want to be coached that are hard to to

00:45:03

help.

00:45:03

>> Mhm.

00:45:05

Um Yeah. When was it that you realized

00:45:08

like vulnerability and and leadership

00:45:10

and coaching was a strength and not

00:45:12

necessarily a weakness? I'm not sure

00:45:15

really. I think it's just something that

00:45:17

I learned through my own life

00:45:20

experiences, both in the feas, both as a

00:45:22

policeman. Rugby, you could, you know,

00:45:25

just seeing how people responded.

00:45:28

Um, and I went through a rugby career

00:45:32

that had lots of ups and downs in it

00:45:34

myself. I mean, uh, back in my playing

00:45:36

career, you only had 21 uh people in the

00:45:40

squad. uh they didn't carry extra people

00:45:44

and I was always the 22nd guy. So I was

00:45:47

in and out of that Canterbury team a lot

00:45:49

and um under Alex and was a coach and he

00:45:52

was a brilliant coach and a great

00:45:54

tactician. Um

00:45:58

however,

00:46:00

it wasn't until I probably became a

00:46:02

coach myself that I worked out, well

00:46:06

it's not because you're not good enough,

00:46:07

it's just cuz there's not enough room.

00:46:11

and and

00:46:13

if they're going to carry an extra

00:46:14

person, he has to be able to either do

00:46:16

that job or do the job you did. And for

00:46:20

the team, it was better to have that

00:46:21

job. And usually came down to a guy

00:46:24

called Wayne Burley and myself. And

00:46:27

Bills could play first five or second

00:46:29

five. So we needed a cover for Smithy.

00:46:31

So a lot of the time

00:46:34

you don't learn that as a a player until

00:46:36

later in your life, but you get

00:46:38

frustrated by it. So learning those

00:46:41

things also helped me understand okay

00:46:45

when I took up coaching I said to myself

00:46:47

right how do I want to treat these

00:46:51

people how to and I always came back to

00:46:53

I would want to treat them how I wanted

00:46:55

to be treated as a player and I could

00:46:57

accept not being picked but just tell me

00:47:00

the real reasons

00:47:02

and and um and just treat them like

00:47:06

people don't treat them like they're

00:47:08

just a number and and back in the day,

00:47:12

you know, I had a lot of coaches who

00:47:16

who were from that generation. It wasn't

00:47:18

their fault.

00:47:20

>> That's that they they were dictated and

00:47:23

you just did as your adult.

00:47:24

>> Yeah.

00:47:25

>> And you didn't question. You didn't

00:47:26

challenge. You did certainly didn't want

00:47:28

to know why, but you did, but you didn't

00:47:30

ask why. And as coaching has grown and

00:47:34

and the generations have changed, you

00:47:36

know, we got generation, what are we up

00:47:38

to now,

00:47:40

>> Zed? I think so. No, Millennials, I

00:47:43

don't know what it's hard to keep up.

00:47:45

>> Yeah. And they're all different and they

00:47:47

all need things differently. But

00:47:48

>> at the end of the day though, they still

00:47:50

have the same desires as we all had.

00:47:54

Whether you're a boomer or whatever it

00:47:56

was before the boomers or what you know

00:47:57

everyone has the same desire and that's

00:47:59

to be successful

00:48:01

>> and and you know how how you teach them

00:48:04

to do that or how you help them to do

00:48:06

that might be subtly different and

00:48:08

that's probably art of coaching but

00:48:11

along the way

00:48:13

>> you find that if you're vulnerable you

00:48:15

work out well okay they trust you more

00:48:19

>> and and doesn't hurt to tell other

00:48:22

people your story cuz you want to know

00:48:24

theirs. So, it's got to be a two-way

00:48:27

thing.

00:48:28

>> Yeah. I I I've been doing this podcast

00:48:29

for 3 years now and I've sort of found

00:48:31

that it's um I call it like a

00:48:33

vulnerability exchange. So, there's some

00:48:35

people that I I can just sit back and

00:48:36

open, you know, ask a question and

00:48:38

they'll open up. Other people are a bit

00:48:39

more difficult. So, in those cases, I

00:48:41

sort of give a bit more of myself away

00:48:43

and

00:48:44

>> um it allows people to open up.

00:48:47

>> Um I've heard so many so many wonderful

00:48:49

stories about you. The studio we're

00:48:51

sitting in now, it's a good mate of

00:48:52

mine, Andy Row. It's called Red N Studio

00:48:53

in Christ Church just next door. He does

00:48:55

a podcast with Justin Marshall called um

00:48:57

Gbrands, Good Bad Rugby New Zealand. Um

00:49:00

Justin Marshall told a story about you

00:49:02

recently. Um I don't know if you

00:49:03

remember the story about him uh not

00:49:05

being selected. I think it was for a

00:49:07

Crusaders game against the Brumies and

00:49:09

he was sulking on the bus.

00:49:11

>> Yeah. No, it wasn't the Brumies. I think

00:49:13

it was South Africa. But he definitely

00:49:14

was sulking on the bus. Yeah. And he

00:49:16

wouldn't get off and

00:49:18

it was embarrassing for him. And I think

00:49:20

Robbie tried to get him off and he he

00:49:23

said, "No, I'm not getting off." And was

00:49:24

reading his book. And so I went on and

00:49:26

just said, "Look, mate, I don't care if

00:49:28

you get off the bus or not. Please

00:49:30

yourself." But there's a group of men

00:49:32

out there that have a lot of respect for

00:49:35

you. And every minute and every page

00:49:37

that you turn over in this bus is

00:49:39

they're losing respect for you. So you

00:49:40

please yourself, but I'm going

00:49:43

>> turned around and he said, "Oh, hang on.

00:49:44

I'm coming." So,

00:49:46

>> so it would have been just as easy for

00:49:47

you and understandable to say, "Get off

00:49:49

this [ __ ] bus,

00:49:51

>> you know." And

00:49:52

>> well, with Marie, that wasn't going to

00:49:53

work. Like, uh,

00:49:56

a very competitive man, Marie, and he's

00:50:00

he's stubborn. It's But that's okay.

00:50:04

That's what makes him who he is. And so,

00:50:07

you know, it would have been a waste of

00:50:08

time cuz he he just wouldn't have

00:50:11

responded to that. So, I wanted him off

00:50:13

the bus, but I didn't want him to know I

00:50:14

wanted him off the bus. I wanted him to

00:50:16

make that decision himself for the right

00:50:18

reasons. And the reasons were, as I

00:50:21

outlaid them, man, get off and I'll

00:50:23

respect you if you

00:50:27

That's a lot of um emotional EQ on your

00:50:29

part.

00:50:31

>> Yeah,

00:50:32

>> I guess so. Yeah.

00:50:34

>> Yeah. Um yeah, there's another story on

00:50:36

that same podcast, G Brands from Aaron

00:50:37

Major. Um you teaching him how to do a

00:50:40

tie up. And then and then say saying

00:50:43

them he should look nice cuz his nana's

00:50:44

in the grand stand or something.

00:50:47

>> Oh, I can't remember about the nana

00:50:49

story, but it would have been I

00:50:51

definitely taught him how to tie a tie

00:50:53

and that was club rugby days and

00:50:57

uh started that with you. We wanted the

00:50:59

boys to be

00:51:01

look tidy and respect the club and and

00:51:05

the team they played for. So we had we'd

00:51:09

teach them how to tie their tie and if

00:51:11

they couldn't tie one we'd just take a

00:51:12

bit more time and teach them and finally

00:51:14

they'd get get it and he was the same he

00:51:17

hadn't he couldn't tie his tie I think

00:51:19

it was in the canary team actually NPC

00:51:21

team and took the time to teach him but

00:51:24

>> it's not a hard thing to teach so

00:51:27

>> yeah but it's not yeah it's not really

00:51:29

your job as like a rugby coach but

00:51:30

you're teaching these these boys how to

00:51:32

be men and you're teaching them some

00:51:33

really good life skills.

00:51:34

>> Yeah, I think that is your job. you

00:51:36

reckon?

00:51:36

>> I think look rugby is one part of your

00:51:40

job and you teach them to be

00:51:43

good rugby players, but uh I think your

00:51:50

your influence on the people you touch

00:51:53

as a coach is way more

00:51:56

widespread than just teach them to play

00:51:58

rugby. You know, you have an influence

00:52:00

that can teach them to be better human

00:52:02

beings.

00:52:04

Um, and you know, I take a lot of pride

00:52:06

out of looking at the achievements. A

00:52:08

lot of people I've had a small part to

00:52:11

play with as a coach and seeing how well

00:52:14

they're doing away from rugby. you know,

00:52:16

rug rugby at the end of the day is just

00:52:19

well, it is a living for a lot of people

00:52:21

now, but it's also it's a sport which uh

00:52:25

there's always going to be a winner and

00:52:26

a loser and there's going to be moments

00:52:28

where there's great success, but there's

00:52:31

also going to be downtimes and but

00:52:33

life's forever.

00:52:36

And if you can be a good human being and

00:52:38

treat people well and and understand

00:52:42

yourself better, then I think you're

00:52:44

going to have an influence on other

00:52:46

people and you know society becomes a

00:52:48

better place.

00:52:51

>> Yeah. But it must be nice for you to

00:52:52

hear like these stories being retold on

00:52:54

podcast like 25 years on or whatever it

00:52:56

is like that's a huge impact you've had

00:52:59

on someone's life.

00:53:01

Oh,

00:53:01

>> it's nice to hear you say that. they've

00:53:03

said that and and

00:53:06

you know I don't need to hear it.

00:53:09

>> Um I just need to do it and and I know

00:53:13

that like even now I'm coaching up in in

00:53:16

uh Japan and the men up there we're

00:53:20

still doing still one of the things that

00:53:22

I pride myself on doing is making sure

00:53:24

that we're not just a rugby team. We're

00:53:27

more than that. M

00:53:29

>> and and

00:53:31

you know the best gift you can give

00:53:33

another human being is value them

00:53:37

>> and and value them enough to to help

00:53:40

steer them in the right direction and in

00:53:42

doing so you try and steer yourself

00:53:44

there too.

00:53:45

>> Mhm.

00:53:46

>> You know, we don't always go in the

00:53:47

right direction all the time.

00:53:49

>> But if we try, then we're we're doing

00:53:53

okay.

00:53:53

>> Yeah. Um, one of the players um, in your

00:53:57

team in Japan is um, Aaron Smith.

00:54:00

>> Yeah.

00:54:00

>> Um,

00:54:03

>> yeah. I listened to a podcast last week

00:54:05

that, um, he was on a couple of years

00:54:07

ago and, uh, he talked about you in

00:54:08

great length. Um, there was a couple of

00:54:10

things which I thought was really cool.

00:54:12

Um, when the big scandal happened in

00:54:14

2016, which we don't need to get into it

00:54:16

all because, uh, that's on the internet

00:54:18

if anyone wants to read it. Um he said

00:54:21

something like um after that you called

00:54:24

him like once a week.

00:54:26

>> Yeah. Was that as a as a mate or a boss?

00:54:30

>> I just was another human being and I

00:54:33

knew that he was suffering and I knew

00:54:36

that uh he and Tegan were going through

00:54:38

a really tough time and

00:54:41

uh you know you can't pretend to care

00:54:43

about people. you've actually got to act

00:54:45

in a way that shows them that you do

00:54:47

care about them and

00:54:49

take uh too much of an effort to have to

00:54:52

pick the phone up. I mean, that's a

00:54:54

pretty easy thing to do. So, I wanted to

00:54:56

make sure that he was okay. I knew he

00:54:58

was struggling a lot and um just

00:55:01

checking in to make sure he's I'd do

00:55:02

that with anybody

00:55:04

>> that I knew and cared about.

00:55:07

>> Yeah, cuz I mean it's a reality of life,

00:55:08

isn't it? and [ __ ] up at some point.

00:55:10

But not not not all of us have our

00:55:12

indiscretions, you know, plastered over

00:55:14

the front page for days and days on end.

00:55:16

But why didn't you throw him to the

00:55:18

wolves at the time?

00:55:20

>> Why would you throw him to the walls?

00:55:22

And like he's a human being who's made a

00:55:24

mistake.

00:55:25

>> Uh he didn't do anything that was

00:55:29

uh legally wrong.

00:55:30

>> Yeah. morally you could you could

00:55:33

question mark it certainly but

00:55:36

>> uh

00:55:39

I look at the rugby boys our rugby

00:55:43

family as a family and sometimes you

00:55:47

don't like the behavior but you still

00:55:49

love them you still care about them and

00:55:52

if it was your son what what would you

00:55:55

want to do

00:55:56

>> and so that's how I treated it and uh

00:56:00

the important thing was not what he did.

00:56:02

It was okay. The important thing was how

00:56:05

he dealt with it and how he responded

00:56:09

and and uh how he and his family got

00:56:13

through it. That was what was important.

00:56:16

Um, you know, and to me, my job as his

00:56:22

rugby coach was to support him to get

00:56:24

through that, uh, a with a learning

00:56:27

experience, b with

00:56:30

causing too many scars that were going

00:56:32

to cause more problems in the future.

00:56:36

>> Yeah. I've even heard him publicly,

00:56:38

thank you for helping him become a man.

00:56:40

Is is that um connected to the the

00:56:42

saying that I've heard you use on

00:56:43

numerous occasions, if you can't change

00:56:44

the man, change the man. Uh no the that

00:56:48

saying is about our job as coaches

00:56:53

as leaders of teams is to first of all

00:56:58

um

00:57:01

try and change them. You know like it's

00:57:04

easy just to say no I'm not picking up

00:57:06

because he's got this problem or that

00:57:08

problem or he does this or he does that.

00:57:11

particularly when you've got the talent

00:57:12

that we have in this country. But

00:57:17

if you've got an athlete that's got all

00:57:19

the ingredients and okay, he doesn't

00:57:22

he's selfish.

00:57:24

As opposed to putting the team first,

00:57:26

he's putting himself first, then okay,

00:57:28

let let's look at this and see if we can

00:57:30

change it. Because

00:57:33

sometimes the way we are is the way

00:57:35

we've been dealt the cards we've been

00:57:37

dealt in life and and we're a reflection

00:57:40

on that and we don't know why. We just

00:57:44

see what we get at the end. But the

00:57:47

challenge is he he may not know he's

00:57:49

selfish and uh

00:57:52

you know if you can teach him to be

00:57:54

selfless

00:57:57

um then you have this great talent. So

00:58:00

why would you just chuck it away without

00:58:02

trying to change? And

00:58:04

but if you try and change them and they

00:58:06

don't want to be coached and they don't

00:58:08

want to change, then then you have to

00:58:10

change them.

00:58:11

>> So that's where that comes from.

00:58:13

>> Well, um yeah, Aaron definitely like

00:58:16

repaid your investment in him, didn't

00:58:18

he?

00:58:19

>> Well, he certainly did. He played

00:58:21

wonderful rugby for the blacks, but I I

00:58:23

think uh by and large he's grown up a

00:58:26

bit. Um,

00:58:28

none of us are perfect.

00:58:30

>> Yeah. And we're all work works in

00:58:31

progress. Like there's never Yeah. You

00:58:34

never reach that summit, eh? There's

00:58:35

always another mountain to climb. Should

00:58:37

should all blacks be seen as role

00:58:38

models?

00:58:40

>> Uh, well, it's a tricky one, isn't it?

00:58:42

Because they are, whether they should be

00:58:44

or shouldn't be. Um, and

00:58:50

the challenge is within that is when the

00:58:56

scrutinized like the one thing that is

00:58:58

constant when you're in the All Blacks

00:59:00

is the scrutiny that you're going to

00:59:01

come under. There's always pressure and

00:59:04

and you know, you see many times in the

00:59:07

media ex all black in trouble. There's

00:59:10

not ex you know see ex plumber or ex

00:59:14

blah blah blah. So

00:59:17

that's the tough side of being an all

00:59:19

black. You know, the good side is that

00:59:21

you're if you've been successful, then

00:59:24

there's, you know, there's all black

00:59:25

currency that allows you to be able to

00:59:27

do some things that other people

00:59:29

probably don't get the opportunity to

00:59:31

see or do. However, um because of that,

00:59:36

you are a role model. People look at you

00:59:38

and want you to be perfect, but no one

00:59:41

is perfect. There's, you know, it's

00:59:43

life's just not like that. Um,

00:59:47

and for me it's not about the how many

00:59:51

mistakes you make. It's how you respond

00:59:54

to the mistake.

00:59:56

Um, do you own it? Uh, do you learn from

01:00:00

it? Um, you know, if you're making 10

01:00:03

mistakes and they're all the same one,

01:00:06

you know, then, you know, when we're not

01:00:10

making much progress. Um,

01:00:14

but if you're making mistakes because

01:00:16

you're immature or because of something

01:00:19

in your background or your past that

01:00:22

drives you in that direction, then

01:00:25

our job uh is to try and help you

01:00:29

>> understand why you're making them and

01:00:31

steer you in the right direction to be

01:00:33

able to get the help for it.

01:00:35

>> Yeah. It's like that saying you learn

01:00:37

more from you know your fails than your

01:00:39

wins and your failure is a stepping

01:00:41

stone to success.

01:00:43

>> Well, if you keep stepping up eventually

01:00:45

you'll be successful.

01:00:47

>> You know you can't perseverance can't

01:00:49

cope with

01:00:50

>> with uh failure can't cope with

01:00:53

perseverance. That's the saying I think.

01:00:55

>> Yeah. Um what are the non-negotiable

01:00:59

traits of a great leader?

01:01:03

uh that he puts the organization ahead

01:01:06

of himself. Uh he's able to have the 8%

01:01:10

conversations that most people don't

01:01:12

want to have.

01:01:13

>> 8% conversations.

01:01:15

>> Yeah. Well, 92% of the conversations we

01:01:17

can all have, they're easy.

01:01:19

>> But the eight 8% are the tough ones.

01:01:22

>> Mhm.

01:01:23

>> Uh that you don't want to have, you

01:01:25

know, you have to have them cuz you

01:01:26

care, I don't want to do this. I I need

01:01:28

to talk to him, but we don't.

01:01:30

>> Mhm. Um,

01:01:32

and when you feel like that, that's the

01:01:34

one you have to have. Um, you've got to

01:01:37

have care and and empathy for the people

01:01:41

that work with you and and you're the

01:01:45

climate setter, you know, and when

01:01:48

you're not leading well, it's invariably

01:01:50

the the thermometer is off because

01:01:55

everything's too hot or or it's too

01:01:58

cold.

01:02:00

Um, so you know, check yourself before

01:02:03

you go into meetings. No matter what's

01:02:05

happened before, people don't care

01:02:08

>> when you come into that meeting that

01:02:10

that's who you are. So, and there's been

01:02:12

times, you know, I can remember uh with

01:02:16

the All Blacks that my thermometer got

01:02:18

too hot and I I was short and grumpy and

01:02:23

because I was thinking about the outcome

01:02:25

and it wasn't until I reflected back on

01:02:26

that and and got some home truth from a

01:02:31

couple of people who were honest enough

01:02:33

to tell me that, yeah, well, you're

01:02:35

right. You had to change. So,

01:02:38

um, they're pretty much, you know, and

01:02:41

everyone talks about their culture, but

01:02:43

you got to try and live it the best you

01:02:44

can from the top down, not the bottom

01:02:46

up. Uh, again, you don't always get it

01:02:49

right. Like, try and be on time for

01:02:52

meetings. And if you're not, then own it

01:02:54

and and put your hand up and, you know,

01:02:57

but just don't be late all the time. I I

01:03:01

had a story about that. Did um he

01:03:03

another previous podcast guest uh Kevin

01:03:05

Mameo did he um did he give you a public

01:03:08

dressing down at one point for being

01:03:09

late to a meeting?

01:03:10

>> He did. It was good.

01:03:14

>> Where that seems so unlikely by the way

01:03:16

like he you it's hard to hard to think

01:03:18

of a more lovely man than Kevin Mamu. So

01:03:21

what what happens? You walk into a

01:03:23

>> I was late. I was 2 minutes late uh to a

01:03:26

meeting and he and he just stood up and

01:03:28

said, "Steve, it's not good enough.

01:03:29

You're late." And I said, "Thanksg,

01:03:31

right, I am." And and why I said it was

01:03:35

good was because every ass in the chair

01:03:38

that was in the room, they all visibly

01:03:40

move forward.

01:03:42

And you know, here's a a player telling

01:03:46

the head coach. And here's the head

01:03:49

coach saying, "You're right." So whilst

01:03:51

it wasn't great that I was late, uh what

01:03:54

happened after that was good

01:03:56

>> from a team point of view. And and no

01:03:58

one's

01:04:00

No one's um immune from being asked to

01:04:04

be what they say they be.

01:04:06

>> With with the benefit of hindsight, you

01:04:08

can see that's a good thing. Um at at

01:04:10

the time, um like were you you pissed

01:04:12

off or embarrassed or

01:04:15

>> Oh, you're embarrassed. You wouldn't be

01:04:18

human if you weren't embarrassed. But it

01:04:21

Yeah, I had no right to be pissed off

01:04:23

because I was late. The facts were I was

01:04:24

late.

01:04:26

>> So

01:04:27

you you got If one of the players was

01:04:30

late and and I told them they're late or

01:04:33

someone else in the room told them late,

01:04:35

I'd be agreeing with whoever told him he

01:04:36

was late. It's not acceptable. So,

01:04:39

>> um,

01:04:41

no point being pissed off. Just take it

01:04:44

on the chin and say, "Well, don't be

01:04:45

late next time."

01:04:48

>> Yeah. But in a hierarchy environment,

01:04:50

like he he really he sort of had no

01:04:52

right to

01:04:53

>> Yes, he did. He had every right. And

01:04:55

like there's no hierarchy environment. I

01:04:58

don't believe there is one. I think yes

01:05:00

is like you you ask players to join a

01:05:05

leadership group. So it's a joint

01:05:07

leadership and you have alignment with

01:05:10

all parties across the board

01:05:12

and

01:05:14

you know the players

01:05:17

uh have to drive the game on the field.

01:05:20

So you need them to be help drive it off

01:05:22

it. And and so I don't see it as

01:05:25

hierarchy. I would just see it as okay

01:05:27

well we're all in this together

01:05:30

>> and uh

01:05:31

>> I'm just privileged one who gets to be

01:05:33

called head coach

01:05:35

>> but if I do something that doesn't go

01:05:37

with what we're saying which is team

01:05:39

first and being late is not team first

01:05:41

that's I've been selfish because I've

01:05:44

either done yeah you put something ahead

01:05:48

of the team to not be at that meeting

01:05:52

uh so I deserve a an uppercut and you

01:05:55

know he was good enough to give me one.

01:05:57

Well, at the time, yes, it was

01:05:59

embarrassing, but at the same time, it

01:06:01

was also something I really,

01:06:04

you know, appreciated him having the

01:06:06

strength of character to do.

01:06:08

>> Um,

01:06:09

>> it was great leadership from him.

01:06:10

>> Yeah, 100%. You said something before

01:06:13

and I've never I've never heard it

01:06:14

framed this this way before, but the um

01:06:16

the 92 uh% thing, 88% thing. Um, and I

01:06:21

got to say for me and possibly a lot of

01:06:23

people listening or watching this

01:06:24

podcast, it's one of my toxic traits.

01:06:27

I'm just terrible at having tough

01:06:29

conversations.

01:06:30

>> Um,

01:06:32

>> yeah. Does it get easier and easier?

01:06:34

>> No, never gets easy. And and ironically,

01:06:40

uh, if you spoke to my wife, she'd say

01:06:42

I'm terrible at it with

01:06:45

with her and with the kids.

01:06:50

So I have to work really hard at it in

01:06:54

our family environment like in the the

01:06:56

emotional side of that and I don't know

01:07:00

if it's because of you know we're a

01:07:02

blended family

01:07:04

um whereas I find it an easier thing to

01:07:09

do when there's less emotion around it

01:07:12

>> and in the rugby side of it. So, you

01:07:15

know, we can be good on the right hand

01:07:17

side, but poor on the left hand side, or

01:07:19

we can just be totally good, or we can

01:07:21

be totally poor.

01:07:23

>> Um, but what I do know is, uh,

01:07:29

if you don't have them, there's a

01:07:31

consequence. If you do have them and you

01:07:33

manage them well, then, you know, the

01:07:36

consequences aren't so great.

01:07:40

>> Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it's different in

01:07:42

like um a test rugby environment like

01:07:44

you got to make you got to have these

01:07:45

tough conversations and do it with a

01:07:47

sense of urgency because it's a

01:07:48

selection based thing or whatever, but

01:07:50

>> in a home environment like you can

01:07:52

procrastinate a bit and eventually it'll

01:07:55

if you address it or not, it's going to

01:07:56

work itself out somehow.

01:07:58

>> Yeah. Well, relationships I think are a

01:08:00

lot harder than

01:08:02

>> uh when you don't have them though. Like

01:08:05

they

01:08:07

it drags on and on, doesn't it? And then

01:08:09

eventually there's a big bust up and

01:08:12

>> you either fix it or you don't. And if

01:08:14

you don't fix it then, you know, it's

01:08:17

two people going in different

01:08:18

directions. But um

01:08:22

I'm certainly not an expert on the

01:08:24

relationship side of it. Uh but I'm okay

01:08:28

in the rugby side of it. I can as I said

01:08:30

I think it's because of the emotion and

01:08:32

and and it may be you know your

01:08:34

different

01:08:37

world you live in sometimes within the

01:08:39

one world you live in but

01:08:41

>> I just know if you don't have them then

01:08:43

there's a bigger consequence so

01:08:45

>> I'm working hard at having them.

01:08:48

>> Yeah it's good to hear that you're still

01:08:50

working on it. So I think we all are.

01:08:52

We're all constantly works in progress.

01:08:53

There was um I was reading the um the

01:08:56

Ivan Kerry book and there was a quote in

01:08:58

there and when I when I read this quote

01:08:59

I actually thought of you because I

01:09:00

thought it's a it's almost like a steism

01:09:02

um he he says tough conversations don't

01:09:04

have to be tough conversations but I I

01:09:06

don't know I like the idea of that in

01:09:08

practice but I feel like they they just

01:09:10

are by design.

01:09:12

>> Well they are in our own mind. I think

01:09:15

once you have them, I think they become

01:09:18

actually um invigorating conversations

01:09:21

because they allow you to move

01:09:26

uh either the relationship that you're

01:09:30

have with the person you're having it

01:09:31

with in a better direction. It's an

01:09:34

opportunity to show care.

01:09:37

Uh it's an opportunity to take

01:09:39

responsibility

01:09:40

uh for things. So, and ownership. So I I

01:09:44

understand what he's saying, you know,

01:09:46

but it's

01:09:48

the blocker is, you know, this is going

01:09:50

to be tough. I don't want to do this. Oh

01:09:53

god, I don't want to have to give them

01:09:55

bad news or I don't want to take

01:09:57

ownership of this, you know, cuz it's

01:10:00

embarrassing. Um,

01:10:03

but once you've done it, it's, you know,

01:10:05

you'll know yourself. It feels so much

01:10:07

better once it's done and it's it's like

01:10:11

I guess you've got an abscess and you

01:10:12

lance it and all the buses out and you

01:10:14

can get on with it again, you know, and

01:10:16

>> move forward.

01:10:17

>> Yeah. Are there any that stand out as

01:10:20

some of like the the toughest

01:10:22

conversations you've had? like over the

01:10:24

weekend um knowing this podcast was

01:10:26

coming up I watched that Amazon Prime um

01:10:28

series that the All Blackstone and so

01:10:31

there was some things in there like um

01:10:33

Ryan Croy Julian See

01:10:36

maybe an Andy Allison there as well like

01:10:38

they these these are really tough

01:10:40

conversations like you you you know

01:10:42

you're almost like crushing someone's

01:10:43

dream in a way aren't you? Well, when

01:10:46

you're dropping someone, you are.

01:10:48

>> And I think um or you you know, you're

01:10:51

you're taking away their dream

01:10:53

>> and

01:10:55

they are they're really tough

01:10:57

conversations because

01:11:00

it's giving someone news they don't want

01:11:02

to hear.

01:11:04

>> But I I guess the thing that helps me

01:11:08

have those is, you know, was this is

01:11:11

what we believe is right for the team.

01:11:13

So the team's more important than the

01:11:15

individual even though you care and love

01:11:17

the individual.

01:11:18

You love the team more than so you have

01:11:22

them and you try and do it in the best

01:11:24

way you can.

01:11:26

>> Yeah. That the Amazon program I I really

01:11:29

hated it because I it wasn't really us

01:11:33

and it doesn't matter who you are.

01:11:35

You've got cameras there. It makes

01:11:36

people different. And yeah, I thought it

01:11:39

was one of the commercial things we

01:11:42

didn't need to do.

01:11:44

>> Yeah, that's that's interesting. I

01:11:46

suppose as soon as there's cameras

01:11:47

there, it does there there is a

01:11:48

performative aspect to it.

01:11:50

>> Well, you just can't be your normal

01:11:51

self.

01:11:52

>> Um I don't think it's very very

01:11:55

difficult to be anyway. You know, you're

01:11:56

always aware of

01:11:59

we we didn't show them a lot anyway. M

01:12:04

>> we

01:12:06

okay you can come and do this and that's

01:12:08

gone and then

01:12:10

>> now we'll get on with it.

01:12:12

>> I I I found it quite interesting that

01:12:14

cuz I I had sort of no clue really what

01:12:16

what your job was. I thought like your

01:12:17

job would maybe be a manager and you

01:12:19

know you've got coaches and you get like

01:12:21

direct executive reports or something

01:12:22

but you're you're you're on the

01:12:24

>> you're on the field every day like

01:12:26

tossing the ball around you know calling

01:12:27

all the shots. So the head coach is

01:12:29

still definitely like a a coaching role

01:12:31

even though you've got all these coaches

01:12:32

beneath you.

01:12:33

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're more the

01:12:34

helicopter, you know, like you've got

01:12:36

it's not just the coaches, it's all your

01:12:38

staff and

01:12:39

>> you try and let them do their thing, but

01:12:42

>> you know, your job is to challenge them

01:12:44

a little bit and

01:12:46

>> or or

01:12:48

I remember talking to Gilly, who's best

01:12:52

SMC coach I've ever seen, and we're

01:12:55

having problems with Dan Carter uh and

01:12:58

his leg. And I' said to Dan, you know,

01:13:01

what's your best playing weight? and he

01:13:03

saw I'm 93 and you know he was doing the

01:13:05

jockey head so there was no fat at 93

01:13:07

and so yeah what weight were you when

01:13:10

you weren't having trouble with your

01:13:12

with your leg and he was 92

01:13:16

he might have been 95 and then 92 and I

01:13:18

said oh okay good and then I went and

01:13:21

saw Gillian I said you know at 92 he

01:13:23

didn't have any leg problems at 95

01:13:26

he is and biomechanically DC is not the

01:13:29

perfect individual he's

01:13:32

different. He's like a great raceh

01:13:35

horse. You It doesn't slow them down

01:13:36

just cuz their legs aren't

01:13:39

in alignment. But I learned from the

01:13:42

raceh horsing game that, you know,

01:13:44

eventually you pay a price if you're

01:13:47

carrying too much weight on them. So I

01:13:48

said, "Why don't why don't we try and

01:13:50

get some weight off and see what

01:13:52

happens?" And Gilly was great. He said,

01:13:54

"Yeah, okay. Let's try it." And we

01:13:56

didn't. He never had any leg problems.

01:13:57

He come into that, you know, under a

01:13:59

cloud in the 215 into the World Cup and

01:14:02

just grew and grew in confidence and

01:14:04

played like a, you know, best player in

01:14:06

the world. So,

01:14:08

so that that's part of your job is uh as

01:14:11

a overall head, you know, your job is

01:14:15

not to be the Sinc coach. Your job is to

01:14:18

just check, okay, what he looks like

01:14:21

he's fat. What's going on there? Oh,

01:14:23

blah blah blah. Okay, I'll know where he

01:14:26

is when we got him doing some extra. So,

01:14:28

you're you're just helping them.

01:14:31

Sorry. You know, deliver on what they

01:14:34

want to deliver on.

01:14:36

>> Yeah. Um, yeah. Speaking of Gilly, uh,

01:14:38

Dr. Nick Gill, I had him on the podcast

01:14:40

and he he told a story about, um, early

01:14:42

on in the his all black time, um, he was

01:14:45

doing like a a pull-up or something at a

01:14:47

bar at a um, at one of the gyms and

01:14:50

downtrailed him. Um,

01:14:53

were you a victim of any pranks or were

01:14:56

were you immune? Were you I thought

01:14:57

you'd be immune to that.

01:14:58

>> No,

01:14:59

>> really.

01:15:01

>> No, they love they love uh seeing you

01:15:06

and I think it's right like they they

01:15:08

love seeing,

01:15:11

you know, the people that they're

01:15:13

working with and in Gilly's case, you

01:15:15

know, he's the SNC coach, me, I'm the

01:15:18

head coach. So, they love seeing

01:15:19

normalization.

01:15:21

and and having a laugh at your expense

01:15:23

and and I think that's that's good for

01:15:25

the team.

01:15:27

>> Um you may not like it at the time, but

01:15:30

it's good for the team.

01:15:31

>> Any any standouts?

01:15:33

>> Oh, there's heaps.

01:15:36

Heaps. We used to have a uh a Tuesday

01:15:39

night um club knot. We call it a club

01:15:42

knot where you wore your club jersey and

01:15:45

and we'd sell raffles and

01:15:48

um Dne and and Brady Retellic were the

01:15:52

raffle

01:15:54

uh guys. So they'd go and get prizes

01:15:57

either see Shandandy or Gilbert and get

01:15:59

some money to go and get the prizes or

01:16:01

they'd get some donated through

01:16:03

sponsors. Um, so the raffles would be on

01:16:06

and then you'd have a club captain who'

01:16:07

do give out club notices and and then

01:16:11

there would be a pistake somewhere

01:16:12

amongst that. So invariably I'd be one

01:16:15

coping it.

01:16:16

>> What about um in terms of impressions of

01:16:19

you? Uh anyone

01:16:20

>> H.

01:16:22

>> Could anyone do it? Okay.

01:16:24

>> Uh yeah, there was a few that weren't

01:16:25

too bad. Yeah, a few.

01:16:29

>> What was it? Um, yeah. What's the What's

01:16:32

the um team bus like? I'm guessing

01:16:34

there's two sort of team buses. There's

01:16:35

team bus on on the weekend.

01:16:37

>> Yeah.

01:16:37

>> And team bus on a on a on a weekday.

01:16:40

There you are. You're a bloke in your

01:16:41

50s in this bus with a with a bunch of

01:16:44

like, you know, fit, energetic young

01:16:46

guys. Um, is that a crazy environment?

01:16:50

>> Uh, the bus has a different

01:16:53

flow to it depending on what part of the

01:16:55

week we're in. So

01:16:58

trainings early in the week, you know,

01:17:00

there's plenty of chatter. Um,

01:17:04

everyone has their own seats um through

01:17:08

through time served. Coaches always sit

01:17:11

at the front or management are always up

01:17:13

the front. You guys are usually in the

01:17:15

seats up the front next behind the last

01:17:19

management person. And then the guys

01:17:22

that have been there the longest,

01:17:23

there's usually four, three or four, I

01:17:25

can't remember how many we had in the

01:17:26

back seat, would be in the back seat.

01:17:27

Captains never allowed in the back seat.

01:17:29

>> And there'd be a lot of talking and

01:17:32

stuff and it was great. You know, music,

01:17:34

there's a music committee, so someone

01:17:36

had to play music.

01:17:38

Uh then as we get into nearer the end of

01:17:42

the week

01:17:44

I like captain's run still it'd be quiet

01:17:47

on the way to the captain's run but then

01:17:49

afterwards it'd be chat and banter and a

01:17:51

bit of laughter and then on game day it

01:17:54

was

01:17:56

everyone had their headphones on and be

01:17:58

no noise, no speaking, no nothing. And

01:18:01

then afterwards, depending on how we

01:18:04

went,

01:18:05

>> uh, we would there'd be plenty of noise.

01:18:09

>> And we we had a ritual where we played a

01:18:12

song. It had to be the last song and it

01:18:14

had to finish. Was all bit of pressure

01:18:17

on the music uh guy. He had to have it

01:18:20

finishing as the bus rolled up to the

01:18:22

hotel where we were staying to get off.

01:18:25

And it was called the Gambler. During my

01:18:27

time, I think they got a new one under

01:18:29

Fosian. I don't I don't know what

01:18:30

they're doing with Razer, but um I'd

01:18:33

been coached by a guy called Gordy

01:18:35

Hunter.

01:18:36

>> M

01:18:37

>> who

01:18:39

showed me the how humor was a really

01:18:42

important part of of helping a rugby

01:18:46

team diffuse pressure.

01:18:49

And he taken us on a tour with New

01:18:50

Zealand Combined Services

01:18:53

um throughout the UK. It was about a

01:18:55

12-week trip. And uh

01:18:59

he had asked us all to bring cassettes

01:19:01

back in those days. He's we' all had to

01:19:03

bring a cassette of our favorite song

01:19:06

and then he gave to the music guy and

01:19:08

anyway he wanted his one played first

01:19:10

and it was Stairway to Heaven.

01:19:13

>> 8 minutes or something.

01:19:15

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it was more than that

01:19:17

because what happened was

01:19:20

um

01:19:22

played it, he took it out and he always

01:19:25

got his cassette back cuz he sat right

01:19:27

behind the bus driver and he made me as

01:19:29

c I was captain of the team and he made

01:19:30

me sit beside him. So I was allowed up

01:19:33

the back and

01:19:36

anyway second I don't know whose

01:19:39

cassette went in the second time but as

01:19:41

soon as it started playing he tapped the

01:19:42

bus driver on the shoulder said take

01:19:44

that put this back in. So for 12 weeks

01:19:46

we played one cassette, Stairway to Hip,

01:19:48

one song,

01:19:51

and it drove everyone nuts. But then in

01:19:53

the end, it united us. And that's where

01:19:56

I got the idea from. So I thought, okay,

01:19:58

well, let's play this one song. We only

01:20:00

play it if we win. We don't play it if

01:20:02

we it's that was the rule. So if we if

01:20:05

we lost, we never we never got to play

01:20:06

it. Never got to hear it.

01:20:08

>> And it was like a subconscious thing.

01:20:11

And you know, it was great. and everyone

01:20:14

would rip into it and sing and you know

01:20:16

initially again it was the same

01:20:18

resistance as we had with Gordy or what

01:20:21

this is a [ __ ] song it's not a modern

01:20:23

day song but then they got okay well

01:20:26

we're playing this again and then the

01:20:28

challenge went into the poor old music

01:20:30

man he had to if he didn't get it right

01:20:32

the boys would and the bus driver would

01:20:34

muck around with him had a great bus

01:20:36

driver in New Zealand so no it was good

01:20:39

so it was little things like that

01:20:40

happened

01:20:41

>> yeah there must be conversations that

01:20:44

you hear that like what the hell is this

01:20:46

going?

01:20:47

>> Uh, no. Not too you're far enough away

01:20:51

from that so you don't hear them.

01:20:54

>> Yeah. In the um Amazon Prime

01:20:56

documentary, the bus driver says

01:20:58

something like there's some songs where

01:20:59

Steve's like, "Skip on to the next one."

01:21:01

>> Yeah. Know next. Yeah.

01:21:03

>> What genre?

01:21:04

>> I I'm pretty open to most genre, but I'm

01:21:06

not a big rapper. I don't like the

01:21:08

rapping stuff, so I used to try and put

01:21:11

a bit of pressure on them to change

01:21:12

that. Then to the credit of the music

01:21:15

guys that would be a we challenge to see

01:21:17

if they could cope with me putting them

01:21:18

under pressure and then the other boys

01:21:20

would be a listen to the go get it back

01:21:23

on don't put it on

01:21:25

>> and we'd have a bit of fun with them.

01:21:27

>> That's good. Um yeah I've heard you talk

01:21:29

about um rules versus expectations and

01:21:32

you're not a big fan of rules. Um yeah

01:21:35

what were your non-negotiable rules? uh

01:21:38

with the teams one um

01:21:42

number one was team first individual

01:21:44

second uh alignment so I wanted to have

01:21:47

alignment within the coaching group

01:21:50

wanted to have alignment then with the

01:21:52

leadership group and then I wanted to

01:21:54

have alignment with management

01:21:56

leadership group and then alignment with

01:21:59

the team so but and and that the senior

01:22:02

guys the leaders would drive it you know

01:22:06

was their team they had to drive it So

01:22:07

they were the non-negotiables.

01:22:10

>> Everything else was up for negotiation.

01:22:13

>> Um,

01:22:15

a player like Richie McCoy

01:22:17

as head coach, how do how do you coach

01:22:18

someone like that? Someone that's that's

01:22:20

got that um competitive level the same

01:22:23

as yours, if not higher. Um, yeah, just

01:22:25

personal expectations that are like

01:22:27

level 10.

01:22:29

>> Well, he was really coachable cuz he

01:22:31

wanted to be better all the time. So,

01:22:33

and he was smart enough to know, well,

01:22:35

he can't do it by himself. So he would

01:22:37

look to people within the organization

01:22:40

to to help him get better. Um what he

01:22:43

wanted, okay, identify for me what you

01:22:47

want me to be better at and then give me

01:22:50

some examples of how I can do that and

01:22:52

then he'd go away and do it. Cuz when he

01:22:54

started like he was he was probably

01:22:58

not the most talented rugby player. um

01:23:01

definitely the most uh

01:23:04

best work ethic and definitely mentally

01:23:08

the toughest.

01:23:11

So he combined those two things with

01:23:14

okay now if I if I can improve my skill

01:23:17

level and skills you know skill is is

01:23:21

something you can learn if you're

01:23:23

persistent enough with it

01:23:25

>> and he was and he became very very

01:23:28

proficient at a whole range of rugby

01:23:31

skills because he had the work ethic and

01:23:34

the and the mental fortitude to to keep

01:23:36

turning up every day to try and be

01:23:38

better at it. And in the end he was the

01:23:40

greatest rugby player of all time I

01:23:42

think um because he he had so many

01:23:45

skills uh and he had that mental

01:23:47

fortitude

01:23:48

>> and the work ethic.

01:23:50

>> He he seems from everything I've read

01:23:52

and heard about him um just so like

01:23:55

incredibly focused and dialed in on the

01:23:57

job at hand. Did did you have many

01:23:59

conversations with him that weren't

01:24:01

rugby or all black related?

01:24:03

>> Oh, we had lots of conversations. you

01:24:04

like you didn't have to have too many

01:24:07

rugby conversations with him. I remember

01:24:09

having one particular rugby conversation

01:24:11

in 15. We were in London

01:24:15

and uh he always knew I I wanted to talk

01:24:19

to him if I said, "Oh, let's go and have

01:24:20

a cup of tea."

01:24:22

So, we went and had a cup of tea and I

01:24:25

said, "You know, I reckon there's only

01:24:26

one thing that's going to stop us

01:24:27

winning the World Cup." And he said,

01:24:30

"What's that?" And I said, "You."

01:24:33

And he he sat back in his chair and he

01:24:36

said, "What do you mean? You think I'm

01:24:37

not playing well enough?" I said, "I

01:24:38

think you're playing like a champion,

01:24:40

mate." I said, "But you want it so much.

01:24:43

You're not trusting anybody else in the

01:24:45

group and you're trying to do

01:24:47

everybody's job." I said, "Just do yours

01:24:51

and trust the boys will do theirs. Trust

01:24:54

the coaching group will do theirs. Trust

01:24:56

manager to do his job and we'll be

01:24:57

sweet."

01:24:59

And he did. He just walked, you know, he

01:25:02

must have gone away and thought about it

01:25:04

and but it was because he wanted it so

01:25:06

much because he knew he was going to

01:25:08

retire. We both knew he was retiring at

01:25:10

the, you know, before the World Cup. We

01:25:12

knew he was going to retire after the

01:25:14

World Cup. So, and as you said, he's

01:25:17

very competitive and he he he

01:25:20

cares so much about the team and about

01:25:22

the game. Um, and you can see that and

01:25:26

you know, why he's still involved in it

01:25:28

now. So

01:25:29

>> could could you see yourself in many of

01:25:31

the players

01:25:33

like you see Richie Mccor and did it

01:25:35

remind you of a like a younger version

01:25:37

of yourself or Rich in 2015 did it

01:25:40

remind you of that you know year in

01:25:41

Canterbury where you were being

01:25:43

controlling or

01:25:46

you don't see yourself you just see

01:25:49

I know what you're feeling something cuz

01:25:50

I've been there

01:25:52

>> and I want it too but

01:25:54

>> I know if we both like that that's not

01:25:56

going to work for us. So we have to we

01:25:59

just have to trust other people.

01:26:00

>> Mhm.

01:26:02

>> Um you know like he

01:26:05

should always never good enough to be

01:26:07

even considered to be see parts of me

01:26:09

and him but

01:26:10

>> he he

01:26:12

I know what you mean like he's very

01:26:14

competitive and and when we allow our

01:26:17

competitive nature to get in front of

01:26:19

the process then we're in trouble.

01:26:22

>> It doesn't matter who you are. So it's

01:26:23

just a matter of bringing learning and

01:26:26

understanding that this is all about

01:26:28

process

01:26:29

>> because what happens is we get

01:26:31

distracted when it's about the outcome.

01:26:34

>> Mhm.

01:26:35

>> And we start thinking about the past sh

01:26:37

you know 07 or we think about the

01:26:39

future. What if we don't what if we

01:26:41

don't win this? What are the public

01:26:42

going to be like when we get home?

01:26:45

And really what's really important is

01:26:47

what's happening now. What do we have to

01:26:49

do right now to do what we need to do to

01:26:52

get where we want to go? And and

01:26:56

the the problem is not thinking about

01:26:58

the past or thinking about the future.

01:26:59

It's how long we stay there.

01:27:01

>> That's the big issue.

01:27:03

>> And and recognizing you're not there. So

01:27:06

the job is to try and see it yourself.

01:27:08

And the job of your your teammates and

01:27:11

and your coaching group or other people

01:27:14

in your, you know, is is to recognize

01:27:16

that you're there and help you get out.

01:27:18

M

01:27:19

>> cuz the good people can get out really

01:27:21

quickly.

01:27:21

>> Yeah. Yeah. Is is that a Gilbert and Noa

01:27:24

thing? I I I think I read about this in

01:27:26

the book um Legacy by James Kerr. Uh the

01:27:28

redhead, bluehead thing.

01:27:30

>> Yeah. Well, that's part of it, right?

01:27:32

Yeah. Yeah. And like Gilbert was

01:27:33

brilliant with the group and understated

01:27:36

how valuable he was and

01:27:39

he did so many things for that team that

01:27:41

Yeah.

01:27:43

[Music]

01:27:44

I've heard you say um Sunonny Bill

01:27:46

Williams is the best athlete um you've

01:27:48

you've ever coached. How like how do you

01:27:50

um how do you say that say that so

01:27:52

definitively? Like what separates

01:27:53

Sunonny Bill Williams from a like a

01:27:56

Barrett, a Smith, insert name here?

01:27:59

>> You know what I mean?

01:28:00

>> Just an athleticism of of him like uh as

01:28:05

an athlete he'd be the best athlete up

01:28:07

coast. I'm not saying he's the most

01:28:09

talented or or anything like that, but

01:28:11

he as an athlete, he's look at him. He's

01:28:16

>> he's a supreme uh looking athlete. He's

01:28:21

built beautifully. Uh he's powerful.

01:28:26

Uh he's strong. Um he's big.

01:28:30

So all the things if you were looking

01:28:32

for if if he was a raceh horse, for

01:28:34

example, you'd say, "Well, I want to buy

01:28:36

that horse.

01:28:38

you know, and and the athletes are no

01:28:41

different. Um, you look at all those

01:28:44

great sprinters, they've all got

01:28:47

big asses, big powerful athletes.

01:28:50

And,

01:28:52

you know, he he is just probably in my

01:28:56

mind the best athlete.

01:28:58

Like Dan Carter is a great player,

01:29:01

but biomechanically

01:29:02

had flaws. Whereas you look at um

01:29:06

Sunny like he had no flaws

01:29:08

biomechanically perfect. Uh he ended up

01:29:11

having some knee problems in the end but

01:29:13

he's great athlete. Another guy I coach

01:29:16

is um who was close to him was uh Alfie

01:29:19

Thomas from Wales. He was a amazing

01:29:22

athlete too.

01:29:24

[Music]

01:29:25

>> Yeah. Well to time stamp this

01:29:27

conversation at the time we're recording

01:29:28

this. say like a week or two out from

01:29:30

Sunny Bill having a fight with um Paul

01:29:32

Gallon. Um so he's still in insane shape

01:29:36

and still working really really hard.

01:29:38

>> Um

01:29:40

>> yeah, I know you're not a fan huge fan

01:29:42

of it, but the Amazon Prime show, which

01:29:43

I've referenced a couple of times,

01:29:44

there's a really nice moment in there

01:29:46

where uh following an awful moment where

01:29:48

he gets that red card. Um can you

01:29:50

remember what you said to him after

01:29:52

that?

01:29:54

>> Oh, I I'm not sure.

01:29:55

>> Like no use sulking about it, son.

01:29:58

Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was

01:30:01

hurting cuz he knew he'd let the team

01:30:03

down and we we lost the test because

01:30:06

right in the last moment, but we didn't

01:30:09

lose the test cuz he got sent off. But

01:30:11

when you get sent off, you take that

01:30:12

responsibility and you and and if you

01:30:14

lose, you take it even heavier. So,

01:30:17

there was no point in talking about it.

01:30:19

We just I needed him to come back and be

01:30:20

a, you know, back in a good place

01:30:23

mentally so he could help the rest of

01:30:24

the team

01:30:25

>> cope with it. So,

01:30:27

Yeah.

01:30:29

>> When do when do you think you were um at

01:30:31

your peak as a leader? Like as a player,

01:30:33

you can probably look back and in

01:30:35

hindsight on reflection over your career

01:30:36

and say, "Oh, this was the year where I

01:30:38

I played my best regardless of the win

01:30:40

loss record." Can can you do that as a

01:30:42

coach?

01:30:43

>> I think you can look back and say you

01:30:45

coached better

01:30:47

this day or that day than you did this

01:30:51

day or this year. And

01:30:54

>> um

01:30:56

you know there's there's

01:30:59

periods within periods that you coach

01:31:01

well and you don't coach well and you

01:31:03

know so

01:31:05

um you strive to be better every day but

01:31:08

you're not always able to do that.

01:31:11

>> Um such a polarizing job and you had it

01:31:14

for such a long time. Were um any

01:31:17

members of the public ever like rude or

01:31:18

impolite to your face?

01:31:21

Uh yeah, there was when we were we lost

01:31:23

in ' 07. There was a few people

01:31:27

uh had things to say, but I don't didn't

01:31:30

used to worry me too much.

01:31:33

>> Yeah, cuz I've had um Hardy John Hart on

01:31:35

the podcast and uh after was it the 99

01:31:39

World Cup?

01:31:40

>> Yeah.

01:31:40

>> Yeah. 99 World Cup. Yeah. He he the

01:31:42

backlash from that uh caused him to go

01:31:44

into like a deep depression to the point

01:31:46

where he was in dinner with his with his

01:31:48

first wife and was miserable over there

01:31:51

then came home and there's a period of

01:31:52

time where he you could barely leave the

01:31:54

house and cross the street you know he

01:31:55

was that

01:31:57

>> I feel like we've grown grown up as a

01:31:59

nation e we've moved

01:32:02

>> um look 07 was tough time and

01:32:08

for a number of reasons and like my

01:32:10

other passed away.

01:32:13

Um, and

01:32:16

that sort of put a reality to losing the

01:32:19

World Cup. And was it something we

01:32:22

wanted to do? No, we didn't set out to

01:32:24

do it. And did we make some mistakes?

01:32:27

Yeah, of course we did. Cuz we we we

01:32:28

didn't get it right. Uh, did we own

01:32:31

that? Yeah, we did. Um, but at the end

01:32:34

of the day, World Cups are hard to win

01:32:38

>> and uh,

01:32:41

you know, not everyone's done that. Like

01:32:44

Ireland's have been supposedly the the

01:32:46

number one team in the last

01:32:49

we while and they still can't get past

01:32:51

the quarterfinals.

01:32:52

Um, so they're not easy and

01:32:57

you've got to try and learn from them.

01:33:00

But people

01:33:02

get like they get because they care too.

01:33:06

M

01:33:06

>> and if you can

01:33:09

dec uh if you can put that in the

01:33:12

cupboard and go, "Right, I understand

01:33:13

how that person's feeling

01:33:16

cuz I care." Then you can sort of brush

01:33:19

it off.

01:33:22

>> And and if they walk away and they

01:33:25

actually have any sense of normality

01:33:28

about them, they'll actually be

01:33:29

embarrassed when they stop and think

01:33:31

about what they've just said or done.

01:33:33

and

01:33:34

uh and if they don't then they're not

01:33:36

worth worrying about anyway.

01:33:38

>> So uh the key thing is you've got to be

01:33:42

able to compartmentize it to the point

01:33:44

where okay if I look in the mirror have

01:33:47

I done everything I possibly could have

01:33:50

done? Yes.

01:33:54

Have I done it all right? No. Okay. What

01:33:57

have I got to be able to do better if I

01:33:58

get another chance?

01:34:01

And that's all you can do. And then I

01:34:04

wouldn't want the New Zealand public to

01:34:06

change their passion and their want for

01:34:10

all black team. That's what makes

01:34:13

rugby so important to this country is

01:34:16

but it makes our rugby players and our

01:34:18

coaching and our rugby union have to

01:34:21

look at ourselves and well what do we

01:34:23

want?

01:34:24

>> You know we've got this outside group

01:34:25

who aren't even involved in it wants

01:34:27

this. So it pushes you to want even

01:34:30

more. So

01:34:32

>> you can't have all the pats on the back

01:34:35

and not get the odd punch in the nose

01:34:37

>> and then you know cry poor me poor me.

01:34:41

And some of it like I know what Hardy

01:34:43

got was ridiculous. And it was

01:34:45

particularly down here.

01:34:47

>> You had a race meat down here.

01:34:48

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:34:49

And contabrians are very very oneeyed

01:34:52

and they're called that bit for a reason

01:34:54

because you know they don't see too much

01:34:56

past red and black

01:34:57

>> and that's okay. Nothing wrong with it

01:34:59

but um sometimes it gets out of kilter a

01:35:04

little bit

01:35:05

>> and there is a problem with that. today

01:35:08

and I think

01:35:10

um in in Card's case I think it you know

01:35:13

it was we were learning

01:35:18

but at the same time as learning we were

01:35:21

hurting and we didn't do those

01:35:23

particular things very well and as I

01:35:25

said some of the people that behave like

01:35:27

that will look back on it and

01:35:29

>> think you know they'll be embarrassed

01:35:31

>> give themselves an uppercut

01:35:33

>> good idea

01:35:35

>> 2007 um World Cup was would that be your

01:35:38

biggest professional adversity?

01:35:41

>> Oh no [ __ ] I we

01:35:45

uh lost 10 tests in a row I think it was

01:35:47

when I was coaching Wales and

01:35:50

>> that was tough

01:35:51

>> because I was in an environment where I

01:35:54

didn't have the support of all my

01:35:56

friends and

01:35:58

>> and uh a group or a nation that knew me

01:36:01

or you know I'd come out of Canterbury

01:36:03

and coaching crusaders and Canterbury

01:36:05

and we'd been very very successful. So,

01:36:07

I hadn't tasted

01:36:09

uh defeat like that. And uh

01:36:13

>> but what we did have and I'd gone over

01:36:15

there to help Graeme and Graeme um

01:36:19

pulled the pin

01:36:21

after we lost to Ireland in the first

01:36:23

Six Nations game and then I got handed

01:36:26

uh the job and a I probably wasn't ready

01:36:29

for it, but you're not going to say no

01:36:31

when under the circumstances that you

01:36:32

got given it. And then I was we had a

01:36:35

group of young men who

01:36:38

weren't fit enough,

01:36:41

weren't ready for the task that they

01:36:44

were being asked to do, but they were

01:36:45

the best we had.

01:36:48

>> So it was a matter of protecting them

01:36:50

against a a nation who have Welsh have

01:36:54

similar high expectations.

01:36:57

unrealistic I might add but same high

01:37:01

expectations as New Zealand public do

01:37:04

>> and uh that was tough you know so

01:37:10

I learned there though that um

01:37:14

you know be inclusive

01:37:16

but what's our plan okay this is where

01:37:19

we're going

01:37:21

we know if we do this we're going to get

01:37:22

better if we keep persevering we're

01:37:24

going to be successful so we ended up

01:37:28

becoming uh we had a we lost I think it

01:37:34

was either 10 or 11 I can't remember and

01:37:36

Dave Moffett was the CEO and he come to

01:37:39

see me and he couldn't he couldn't

01:37:41

really say it but he wanted to tell me

01:37:43

if we didn't win against the next

01:37:46

opponent where we're going to I was

01:37:47

going to get the chop.

01:37:50

So I had to say it for him and he and he

01:37:53

goes, "Yeah, well you you need to win."

01:37:55

And I said, "Okay, well, you go away and

01:37:57

sort out who the next coach is going to

01:37:59

be, and I'm just going to carry on

01:38:00

coaching

01:38:01

>> because I need to spend the time

01:38:02

coaching. These kids need

01:38:04

>> their help." And uh so we just dug in

01:38:07

and we lucky enough we beat Scotland.

01:38:09

And so kept the job. Then we went to the

01:38:12

World Cup and had a got knocked out in

01:38:14

the quarterfinal by uh was it England?

01:38:17

Yeah, England. We outscored them three

01:38:18

tries to two actually in Australia.

01:38:22

came back, had a pretty good uh Six

01:38:24

Nations. Then I came home and I'd always

01:38:28

I two older daughters. I promised them

01:38:29

I'd come home. I would only go for x

01:38:31

amount of time to Wales and um so I

01:38:35

promised them I'd come home and and um I

01:38:39

was lucky enough to walk straight into

01:38:40

the black job. However,

01:38:44

the thing that pleased me most of all

01:38:45

was that next year that 2004 year, the

01:38:50

Welsh team went on and won the the Six

01:38:52

Nations. So, we'd turn them around

01:38:55

enough to be able to be successful. So

01:38:58

yeah, that's one of the proudest

01:38:59

coaching

01:39:01

things that when I look back on my

01:39:03

career, yeah, winning the World Cups was

01:39:05

great and a lot of things along the way

01:39:08

with the all blacks, but I was also very

01:39:10

proud of how we dug in and took on the

01:39:13

adversity of that Welsh experience and

01:39:16

grew from it.

01:39:18

>> Well, thanks for sharing that. I suppose

01:39:20

to be a great coach, you also need that

01:39:22

adversity as well. I'm think of like the

01:39:24

NBA, completely different sport, but if

01:39:25

you look at the um the top point scorer

01:39:27

list of all time, like there's names on

01:39:28

there that you'd expect like Kobe,

01:39:30

LeBron, MJ, they're also on the the list

01:39:33

of the guys that have missed the most

01:39:34

shots as well.

01:39:35

>> Yeah.

01:39:36

>> Yeah. Part and parcel. Well, you don't

01:39:38

get better if you don't, you know,

01:39:40

you've got to put your hand up and and

01:39:42

you've

01:39:45

adversity is a wonderful teacher

01:39:47

>> and and there won't be a coach out there

01:39:49

that hasn't had at some point in their

01:39:52

career a period where they've had to

01:39:55

look at themselves and challenge

01:39:58

themselves to deal with adversity.

01:40:03

>> Still not nice when you're going through

01:40:04

it.

01:40:05

>> Well, it's not

01:40:06

>> sucks. Yeah, of course it does. And and

01:40:08

it's why you don't want to go back

01:40:10

there.

01:40:11

>> Yeah. Um, one more coaching question

01:40:14

then. Um, I'd love to move on to some

01:40:16

personal reflections. How are you doing?

01:40:17

You right?

01:40:18

>> Yeah. Good.

01:40:19

>> Yeah. You enjoying yourself or would you

01:40:21

Is there a million places you'd rather

01:40:23

be?

01:40:24

>> Oh, there's probably a million places

01:40:25

I'd rather be, Dom, but

01:40:27

>> appreciate the honesty.

01:40:29

>> We're here and we're having a chat, so

01:40:31

you know, why not enjoy it?

01:40:32

>> Well, yeah, I'm I'm loving it. I love

01:40:34

that attitude as well. Um yeah, what did

01:40:37

it feel like when you're in that job for

01:40:39

so many so many years and then uh 2019

01:40:42

suddenly it's you know you wake up and

01:40:43

you don't have this pressure or

01:40:44

responsibility anymore. Is it is it a

01:40:47

weird feeling? Is it a a a feeling of

01:40:49

like relief? What's it like?

01:40:52

>> It's not relief. Um

01:40:56

it's hard to describe really because it

01:40:59

becomes part of who you are like the

01:41:02

team. You care about them so much. you

01:41:04

care about the people in the team so

01:41:06

much. So you want them to continue to be

01:41:09

successful and and you want you know

01:41:13

uh

01:41:14

I guess you then become quite judgmental

01:41:17

about things

01:41:21

with regard to how are they being

01:41:23

supported and and so forth and not

01:41:27

judgmental but you're looking you know

01:41:29

you're watching and you're observing

01:41:31

become very much an observer of what's

01:41:34

going on and And you know, I I was

01:41:39

really pleased that Fozy took over

01:41:41

because I think he deserved that

01:41:43

opportunity. And then co happened and a

01:41:47

lot of other things have happened that

01:41:49

probably didn't need to happen.

01:41:51

>> And if you read his book, you'll hear

01:41:52

all about them. But

01:41:56

I knew that the team would be in good

01:41:58

hands and that uh a lot of the stuff

01:42:03

staff was still there and and the

01:42:06

players would be looked after. So

01:42:09

uh you know I I chose to then step right

01:42:12

back out of it. I didn't I've only think

01:42:13

I've only watched

01:42:16

uh live um

01:42:19

the one all black test that was the

01:42:21

opening France test in the French uh

01:42:25

world cup all the rest I watched on

01:42:27

tally

01:42:29

um because I think I felt like it's time

01:42:32

to get back out and leave it to whoever

01:42:34

is doing it you know and it's the same

01:42:36

now you still feel like you know you're

01:42:39

watching and observing but it's not your

01:42:41

time you've had your time at someone

01:42:43

else's, let them get on with it and and

01:42:46

support them the best you can.

01:42:50

>> Yeah, that's interesting. Um, a lot of

01:42:52

politicians say the same sort of thing

01:42:53

once you've been prime minister. They

01:42:55

like retreat like well into the

01:42:56

background. They just don't want to

01:42:58

don't want to get their fingers in the

01:42:59

pie anymore.

01:43:00

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get a lot of

01:43:01

people ringing up, you know, the media

01:43:03

ring up and want you to comment and

01:43:06

and sometimes you do and and then

01:43:09

sometimes, you know, I I 99% of the time

01:43:12

I just go, "No, and I'm not going to do

01:43:15

that." And sometimes I do and

01:43:18

uh you know, but I I I'm more of the

01:43:22

opinion that look, it's their time. Let

01:43:24

them get on with it and

01:43:26

>> let them do what they want to do and

01:43:27

they they've the right to do it. they've

01:43:29

been elected to do the job and

01:43:31

>> trust them to get on with it.

01:43:33

>> Yeah. Um Fozy, who who you've mentioned.

01:43:35

Yeah. Yeah. You coached together for a

01:43:37

long time. You're in Japan together. Is

01:43:39

he one of your best mates?

01:43:41

>> Uh yeah, he is. He's he's uh

01:43:44

you've got best mates that you went to

01:43:46

school with and then you've got people

01:43:48

that become your best mates because

01:43:49

you've come in contact with him along

01:43:51

the way. So, he's a good man. I trust

01:43:53

him heck of a lot and we have a good

01:43:55

relationship and we enjoy each other's

01:43:57

company and and and we like every

01:44:01

relationship you have moments where you

01:44:03

have disagreements too but you know

01:44:05

those disagreements are put on the table

01:44:07

and because they're it's a tight

01:44:10

relationship you can have those 8%

01:44:12

conversations that you need to have and

01:44:14

and you grow because of them. M

01:44:16

>> so and I enjoy coaching with him and

01:44:18

>> as I said he's a good human being.

01:44:21

>> When when he was all black coach and

01:44:23

there was the stuff going on about him

01:44:24

being replaced which is no doubt a

01:44:25

couple of um um meaty chapters in his

01:44:28

book. Um yeah how how do you support um

01:44:31

him as a mate? Is it a text or a phone

01:44:34

call?

01:44:35

>> I'd just ring in and see how he's going

01:44:37

and how he's feeling and make sure he's

01:44:39

okay. And

01:44:41

um yeah, I got a bit vocal about how the

01:44:43

rugby union treated him one point and

01:44:46

cuz I thought it was poor.

01:44:47

>> You know, you if you elect someone then

01:44:49

get behind whether you've made a poor

01:44:52

decision or a good decision, you're you

01:44:54

you've put him there. So he didn't he

01:44:57

didn't get put there by himself. They

01:44:59

put him there.

01:45:01

>> And and the relationship between your

01:45:03

CEO and your head coach has got to be

01:45:05

really one-off support. And I was very

01:45:07

very fortunate to have Steve Chu as the

01:45:11

CEO and we had a great relationship you

01:45:13

know coming back to Canterbury and

01:45:17

Crusaders and then into the black. So

01:45:20

and I don't I don't think that

01:45:21

relationship was there for those two and

01:45:23

and that's that was disappointing.

01:45:27

>> Um you you mentioned your mom in passing

01:45:31

before. Uh, so your mom Loris, she died

01:45:34

in 2008 and um I believe your dad moved

01:45:36

in with you for a time a time then. Uh,

01:45:39

>> yeah. Yeah. He lived with us once mom

01:45:42

passed away. He come and lived with us

01:45:43

for the rest of his days and it was

01:45:45

great.

01:45:47

>> Yeah. You lost your they died in quite

01:45:50

quick succession really. Your mom in

01:45:51

2008, dad of a stroke at the age of 78

01:45:54

and 2012.

01:45:55

>> Yeah. So um so your mom the year before

01:45:59

she died that was the the 2007 World Cup

01:46:02

which we talked about before she never

01:46:04

got to see the success that followed. Uh

01:46:06

your dad 2012 so he got to see 2011 but

01:46:09

not the um incredible success after

01:46:11

that. Um, is that with with those

01:46:14

massive like career highs that followed,

01:46:17

is that something that sort of stung a

01:46:19

little bit in the back of your mind that

01:46:20

they missed that? They missed seeing you

01:46:22

grow to the

01:46:24

>> peak, Steve. Um, it didn't sting, you

01:46:27

know.

01:46:28

>> Is it uh something that you would have

01:46:31

liked them to have gone through that

01:46:35

time with with us? It would have been

01:46:37

good, but

01:46:39

life's not fair. So there's no point

01:46:41

being a sook about it. You just got to

01:46:43

accept it. And and if there is an

01:46:46

afterlife, then they would have gone

01:46:47

through it with us anyway. If there's

01:46:48

not, then uh they did everything they

01:46:52

could to set me up to be able to do what

01:46:56

we did anyway. So, um, yeah, like it's

01:47:00

more

01:47:02

I I I would rather they were here so I

01:47:05

could have the conversation than to have

01:47:08

them see what I've done, you know, like

01:47:11

just as mates. Like, dad and I were

01:47:13

incredibly close and

01:47:15

>> as I said, he lived with us for quite

01:47:16

some time after mom passed. So, uh, he

01:47:21

became even closer. So, yeah, you do

01:47:23

miss you miss that. Um

01:47:26

>> but

01:47:29

can't change it. So

01:47:30

>> yeah, it's it's it's life, isn't it?

01:47:33

>> It's um it's a certainty for all of us.

01:47:35

So were you were you living with your

01:47:36

dad down here in Crush during the

01:47:38

earthquakes?

01:47:38

>> Yeah.

01:47:39

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. How Yeah. How

01:47:41

was that with the earthquakes? Uh well,

01:47:44

the house got broken

01:47:47

>> and um

01:47:49

I just uh basically we just finished uh

01:47:53

doing it all up but got broken so we had

01:47:56

to sort of move out of it. We got it got

01:47:58

condemned so moved out of it.

01:48:00

>> Mhm.

01:48:01

>> Tough.

01:48:02

>> Um so your wife Tash so you've been

01:48:05

married since um

01:48:07

>> 14

01:48:08

2014.

01:48:09

>> Yeah.

01:48:10

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:48:12

Did you not have enough going on at that

01:48:13

time to organize a wedding and

01:48:16

>> uh

01:48:17

>> right in between World Cups?

01:48:18

>> Yeah. No, it was a good time. It was

01:48:21

good uh

01:48:24

uh a good um

01:48:27

distraction,

01:48:28

>> was it? Yeah.

01:48:30

>> Yeah.

01:48:30

>> What was your um what was your proposal

01:48:32

like? Are you a

01:48:33

>> Oh, very romantic.

01:48:36

>> Would I would expect nothing less hot

01:48:38

air balloon?

01:48:38

>> No.

01:48:39

>> Hot air balloon over the port hills.

01:48:40

>> No, I don't like heights. So it wouldn't

01:48:41

have been that I actually proposed to

01:48:43

her in Sydney in the gardens in Sydney

01:48:46

actually. So went down on one knee and

01:48:49

>> I probably asked her a couple of times

01:48:50

before that and she thought I was

01:48:51

joking. So

01:48:53

>> she didn't take me seriously. But

01:48:56

>> how how did you guys meet? Uh we've

01:48:58

known each other for years and then um

01:49:01

it was really a relationship that her

01:49:04

father had passed away and then mom had

01:49:08

passed away and then uh

01:49:11

I know just through that relationship

01:49:15

grew out of talking about respect for

01:49:18

parents and

01:49:22

>> is this number number three for you?

01:49:25

>> Yeah, we're number one really. I've only

01:49:26

got one wife. Yeah.

01:49:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I mentioned before

01:49:31

the podcast started like you and I um

01:49:34

and our respective families were in um

01:49:36

dinner in Fiji like many years ago. I

01:49:38

think probably before you were married.

01:49:39

>> Um and it was fascinating sort of you

01:49:41

know seeing you briefly how you were

01:49:42

running your family with you fairly

01:49:44

young kids at the time. You were running

01:49:45

them almost like a like a micro team in

01:49:47

a way. It was quite inspiring to see.

01:49:50

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, Tash has done a

01:49:52

wonderful job helping blend a group

01:49:54

together and you know, it's difficult.

01:49:57

Uh it was effectively three families, so

01:50:01

two two and two and and but now we're

01:50:05

a group that are pretty solid and you

01:50:08

know the two oldest girls Whitney and

01:50:09

Jess are

01:50:12

uh you know their own uh right very

01:50:14

successful and and the other the four

01:50:17

youngies are all starting to to grow and

01:50:20

become successful in their right too. So

01:50:21

it's wonderful.

01:50:23

>> Yeah. Whitney one of the um the Black

01:50:25

Ferns uh coaches. Yeah. What? Um, yeah.

01:50:28

Do you do you text her? Do you have any

01:50:30

sort of input in that?

01:50:31

>> Uh, well, no, not really. I mean it

01:50:34

should I wanted to give her a space to

01:50:36

do her own thing and we talk about rugby

01:50:40

uh you know when we do chat and she's

01:50:43

she's uh you know she come from a

01:50:46

teaching background and she's strong

01:50:50

uh about her thoughts and beliefs and

01:50:54

>> um which is good you know she's got her

01:50:57

own uh rugby now she's pretty sharp So,

01:51:03

>> well, not from um not from bad stock to

01:51:06

be fair.

01:51:07

>> Yeah. Well, I think she she too got a

01:51:09

lot from dad and uh you know, more so

01:51:13

from him than me, I would suggest.

01:51:14

>> Mhm.

01:51:16

>> Um and your wife Tash, like you I feel

01:51:19

like you sort of touched upon this

01:51:20

before, but you what sort of role has

01:51:21

she played in your success?

01:51:23

Oh, she's came into my life at a really

01:51:26

great time. Um, as I took over the All

01:51:30

Blacks and she's a former sports woman

01:51:33

herself. She's a very successful net

01:51:35

baller and uh she's very straight

01:51:38

shooter. So, she's not frightened to

01:51:40

tell me what she thinks I should be

01:51:43

doing. and and she's strong with that

01:51:45

and and I love that because she's got

01:51:48

good wise counsel and um good

01:51:51

understanding of sport in itself and

01:51:54

>> Mhm.

01:51:54

>> but more importantly what's right and

01:51:56

wrong about life. So she's been

01:51:58

wonderful and and as I said as a as a

01:52:01

blended family she's you know been

01:52:04

wonderful mother so great stepmother as

01:52:07

well.

01:52:08

Yeah, I suppose she's got to run the

01:52:10

household because it's it's not just the

01:52:13

11, 12, 13 games, whatever a year we see

01:52:16

on TV, is it? Like there's a lot that a

01:52:18

lot that goes on. What is it exactly

01:52:20

like with All Black Coach? Like how how

01:52:22

many nights a year are you away from

01:52:23

home?

01:52:24

>> Uh I think one year we're about 290 days

01:52:29

away from So

01:52:31

>> but

01:52:33

most years would be 140 to

01:52:37

190 probably. So, you know, at least

01:52:39

half the year or more.

01:52:41

>> Um,

01:52:43

so there's a lot of time where she she's

01:52:45

left dealing with with stuff and it's

01:52:50

difficult enough, you know, when it's

01:52:51

not a blended family. So, when it's a

01:52:52

blended family, you're dealing with

01:52:55

other people as well and and uh there's

01:52:58

multiple people to be looked after. So

01:53:01

during the earthquakes,

01:53:04

uh, you know, Crochet was all all cones

01:53:06

and we had kids getting dropped off all

01:53:08

over the city to schools and she was

01:53:11

having to do that. But, you know, she

01:53:13

was on the money and we were still

01:53:15

learning to be a couple as well. And uh

01:53:19

at times, you know, she probably sold

01:53:23

shouldered, you know, massive amount of

01:53:26

responsibility and and uh more than she

01:53:30

probably deserved to have to take. But

01:53:32

um it was just, as I said before, the

01:53:35

sacrifice is that group of people, not

01:53:37

the not the person doing the job. Like

01:53:40

it's not a sacrifice to coach the All

01:53:41

Blacks. It's a sacrifice not to have

01:53:43

your husband or your father at home. I

01:53:46

think they're the people that sacrifice.

01:53:48

A and and whenever um like you were

01:53:52

under the spotlight or you know coping

01:53:54

criticism. Yeah. What like what sort of

01:53:55

impact does that have on her?

01:53:57

>> Oh, they feel that and but you know

01:54:01

they're also as I said because she's

01:54:03

been through the sporting arena herself.

01:54:06

She understands

01:54:08

a lot about it and uh her advice is she

01:54:12

probably one of the first people I'd

01:54:13

look to when I'm frustrated or I'm

01:54:16

feeling something I can talk to her

01:54:18

about it and she'll have good advice for

01:54:20

me. So, she's been great.

01:54:21

>> Yeah. I've um I've got a photo here. I

01:54:25

found this online. It's um it's a it's a

01:54:28

beautiful photo. I think this is from um

01:54:31

2019. When where did where did you

01:54:33

finish in the World Cup? Was it third?

01:54:34

You got the third place medal. Yeah. So,

01:54:36

there's um

01:54:37

>> there's a really nice moment where

01:54:39

>> um I think you get you go over to the

01:54:41

grand stand, there's security guards. Um

01:54:43

she breaches all health and safety

01:54:45

protocol and

01:54:46

>> jumps over the bar.

01:54:46

>> Jump over the barrier and then it's um

01:54:48

you guys on the field together and

01:54:50

>> um yeah, it looks like a couple in love.

01:54:54

>> Oh, well, yeah, I do love her and

01:54:56

>> I'm pretty sure she loves me, too. So,

01:54:59

can't um

01:55:02

>> I I certainly have no uh right to be uh

01:55:08

saying that I've done all this by

01:55:09

myself. I mean, she's certainly been a

01:55:11

big part of it.

01:55:12

>> Yeah.

01:55:13

So, I feel like um you're at that

01:55:15

reflective stage of life now. What are

01:55:18

you still working on as a man?

01:55:20

>> Uh still trying to be a better husband

01:55:22

and better father and you know, they're

01:55:24

the two key jobs I've got now. and be a

01:55:27

better coach. Like

01:55:29

>> just be a better human being. You don't

01:55:31

get it right every day of the week. But

01:55:33

uh if you can

01:55:35

keep asking yourself to be better, I

01:55:37

suppose you've got a chance, you know.

01:55:39

Certainly not perfect. That's for sure.

01:55:41

>> Mhm. Well, yeah. Well, nobody is.

01:55:44

>> No.

01:55:44

>> No. Um we're all we're all flawed. And

01:55:48

anyone that anyone that isn't has lived

01:55:50

um an incredibly boring life, right?

01:55:52

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I look, I think we're

01:55:54

all flawed by the things that happen to

01:55:56

us when we got no uh control over those

01:56:00

things when we're young children and

01:56:03

we're

01:56:05

we're um either scarred or

01:56:09

or created by those experiences and and

01:56:12

if you you know talk to the

01:56:13

psychologists, they'll say it all

01:56:15

happens at a young age. So, at a young

01:56:18

age, you don't have too much control.

01:56:20

It's but it's how you choose to

01:56:24

>> get yourself through that. And you know,

01:56:26

if you become aware of what your flaws

01:56:28

are, then you can slowly but surely

01:56:33

fix them

01:56:34

>> or

01:56:35

>> or do try and do better

01:56:36

>> or control them.

01:56:37

>> Yeah.

01:56:37

>> You know, so they're not flaws and

01:56:39

they're not such a handicap to who you

01:56:41

are in your everyday life. And you know,

01:56:44

some people unfortunately

01:56:46

don't get to do that and it's a tough

01:56:48

old life for them. M.

01:56:51

What are your biggest flaws, would you

01:56:52

say?

01:56:54

>> Uh,

01:56:55

selfish.

01:56:57

>> Um,

01:57:00

yeah, probably selfish.

01:57:04

Uh, competitive,

01:57:07

which makes me selfish.

01:57:10

Yeah, look, I don't

01:57:14

It's easy to rattle off a few things,

01:57:17

but

01:57:21

Some people see and say, "Well, this,

01:57:23

this, and this." And other people say

01:57:25

that, that, and that. And

01:57:27

>> it's not really what the biggest ones

01:57:29

are. It's just what what it is that that

01:57:32

can jump out and bite you in the bum.

01:57:34

>> Mhm.

01:57:34

>> Uh when you don't want it to.

01:57:35

>> Yeah.

01:57:36

>> And And

01:57:38

you know, if I think about myself,

01:57:41

uh you know, there's three or four

01:57:44

things. my pride, you know, can get in

01:57:48

the way. And

01:57:50

um,

01:57:52

you know, I think about, do I like being

01:57:55

embarrassed? No. You know, when I was

01:57:58

younger, a lot younger, you know, like I

01:58:00

couldn't laugh at myself because I was

01:58:01

too, you know, I'd be ashamed or

01:58:04

embarrassed by, you know, people

01:58:06

laughing at me or laughing at something

01:58:07

that I should have been laughing at,

01:58:10

too.

01:58:11

So, you know, there's lots of things

01:58:13

that and they come and go, too. Like,

01:58:16

you know, you get one under control and

01:58:18

then something else will jump up. So,

01:58:21

but by and large, I'm pretty happy with

01:58:23

the human being I am and and uh I've got

01:58:27

the love of a wonderful woman and and my

01:58:31

children and and you know, I've got some

01:58:33

great friends, so can't ask for too much

01:58:35

more than that.

01:58:36

>> Yeah. Yeah. You seem like, you know,

01:58:38

you're at peace. Are are you someone

01:58:40

that you'd want to have a beer with?

01:58:43

>> Uh, some days.

01:58:47

>> That's a real honest answer. I

01:58:48

appreciate that. I feel exactly the same

01:58:50

way.

01:58:51

>> Some days it' be certainly wouldn't want

01:58:53

to have a beer with me cuz I might be a

01:58:55

we bit grumpy. But look, I've just I

01:58:59

understand I'm just turned 66, you know.

01:59:02

So every day is a good day that you wake

01:59:04

up and and

01:59:07

>> you can be as reflective as you like,

01:59:09

but really life's about living now. Uh

01:59:15

I'm not there's no point me judging

01:59:18

myself or allowing other people to judge

01:59:21

me

01:59:22

at 66. I've just got to enjoy every day

01:59:25

that I'm alive. I don't know how long

01:59:27

I'm going to still be here for. And

01:59:29

look, I hope it's as long as possible,

01:59:31

but if I happen to go tomorrow, then

01:59:34

I'll go knowing that, you know, it's

01:59:36

been a pretty good life. And and uh I've

01:59:40

been fortunate to to have been involved

01:59:44

in some wonderful things.

01:59:48

>> [ __ ] that's a beautiful answer.

01:59:50

>> Your your grandkids, how do they hope

01:59:53

how do you hope they see you as a man?

01:59:55

or don't have any yet. So, uh,

01:59:57

>> come on. Come on. There's a blended

02:00:00

family. Who's going to be first?

02:00:01

>> No, we don't want to put them under

02:00:03

pressure.

02:00:05

But look, I don't know. and and and

02:00:11

I think the

02:00:13

again

02:00:16

if we are fortunate enough to to have

02:00:20

grandchildren and and uh I just want

02:00:24

them to know that granddad's someone

02:00:26

they can go to and and get an ice cream

02:00:29

or get a

02:00:32

a piece of chocolate or all the things

02:00:34

that mom and dad don't give them because

02:00:37

they're not allowed them.

02:00:38

>> You know,

02:00:39

>> granddads and and and grandmothers are

02:00:41

there to spoil grandkids.

02:00:44

>> Jeez, I I could see you being a granddad

02:00:46

and I reckon you'd be a fantastic one as

02:00:47

well. Great for shoulder rides.

02:00:50

>> Uh yeah, well be great for the ice

02:00:51

creams and the chocolates cuz I like

02:00:53

them myself.

02:00:54

>> Yeah.

02:00:55

>> Um when was the when was the last time

02:00:57

you cried? Are you quite in touch with

02:00:59

your emotions?

02:01:00

>> Oh, yeah. I get quite emotional when we

02:01:03

start talking about family.

02:01:04

>> Yeah.

02:01:05

>> Yeah. I'm surprised I haven't cried when

02:01:07

you give me that picture of Tash

02:01:08

actually, but

02:01:09

>> Oh, it's a beautiful photo actually.

02:01:11

That just the whole moment like um Yeah.

02:01:14

her jumping over the barrier and and you

02:01:17

both look so happy and at peace and

02:01:19

calm.

02:01:20

>> Yeah.

02:01:20

>> Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you'd prefer a

02:01:22

different color metal around your neck,

02:01:24

but the fact that you you seem so happy

02:01:25

and you've got your chest puffed out

02:01:27

with a a bronze medal.

02:01:28

>> I don't know if that's my chest. I think

02:01:29

that's

02:01:32

uh

02:01:32

>> What are you most afraid of?

02:01:35

Um, what am I most afraid of?

02:01:41

I'm not sure I'm afraid of anything

02:01:43

really.

02:01:45

That's probably a pretty

02:01:49

cynical answer because I will be.

02:01:51

There'll be things that

02:01:55

I'm not a big worrier. Like, I've always

02:01:57

thought that worrying is a waste of time

02:02:00

because it hasn't happened.

02:02:04

then okay prepare for it to happen and

02:02:06

have a plan for it or if it has happened

02:02:09

what are you doing about fixing it?

02:02:11

>> Um

02:02:13

but um as I said before life's been you

02:02:18

know I've been very fortunate. There's

02:02:20

not too much to be afraid of because

02:02:23

I've lived a very

02:02:25

been treated to a wonderful time while

02:02:28

I've been here and uh I guess you fear

02:02:32

that the people you love

02:02:35

get hurt or or you know D got uh breast

02:02:40

cancer we ago and that was tough and you

02:02:43

fear that

02:02:46

but you know things are going really

02:02:48

well there. So keep your fingers crossed

02:02:50

that that carries on. But that's really

02:02:52

the only thing I'm fearful of. I'm not

02:02:56

I'm not scared of um

02:02:59

you know

02:03:01

life ending or or not being you know

02:03:05

being judged by other people.

02:03:08

That's never been something that's

02:03:09

bothered me. But

02:03:11

>> I I think you Yeah. If I was got down

02:03:15

deep and

02:03:17

and uh honest about it really is the

02:03:20

only fear I have is what you know may

02:03:23

happen to your kids or your wife or the

02:03:26

people you love.

02:03:27

>> Mhm.

02:03:29

>> Yeah. I I'm not scared of dying, but um

02:03:32

I think it's it's not not something I

02:03:35

want to do, but it's the FOMO aspect, I

02:03:36

guess. You know, it's what you'd miss

02:03:38

out on.

02:03:40

>> Yeah. Yeah. If you think if you dwell on

02:03:41

it too long and you think about it,

02:03:42

that's what it would be for me.

02:03:44

>> Yeah. I guess like

02:03:48

>> you have no control over being born and

02:03:50

you have no control over when you're

02:03:51

going to go. So, but you do in between.

02:03:55

>> And that's why I said, you know, I'm 66

02:03:57

now. I'm trying to work really hard on

02:04:00

not allowing other people to affect me

02:04:02

with through their judgment or,

02:04:05

you know, be tied down to how they think

02:04:08

I've got to do this because they think I

02:04:10

should be doing it. If I'm doing what

02:04:12

needs to be done because it's right for

02:04:15

me and

02:04:16

and and the people that I love, then,

02:04:20

you know, I'm living pretty good life.

02:04:22

And uh if I happen to to drop dead, I'm

02:04:26

going to be

02:04:28

I I won't know I'm dead.

02:04:30

>> And And but I know that I've I've uh

02:04:35

I've I've I've had a good go, you know.

02:04:38

>> Yeah, you sure have. What do you think?

02:04:41

Is there an afterlife?

02:04:43

>> Well, look, I don't know. But

02:04:45

>> no, no, no, no. Well, no one knows.

02:04:47

>> But if there is, then we'll we'll we'll

02:04:51

enjoy that for what it is, you know, and

02:04:54

>> that's a whole new experience, isn't it?

02:04:56

Um, do I

02:04:59

am I a spiritual person? Uh,

02:05:04

not overly, but certainly not underly

02:05:07

either. I think I'm sort of

02:05:09

middle of the road.

02:05:10

>> Mhm.

02:05:11

>> Um, yeah, but

02:05:15

it' be a hell of a way to go if there is

02:05:16

an afterlife. Bloody good party.

02:05:20

>> Bonus. Um,

02:05:23

is there three words that you'd like um,

02:05:25

family and friends to use to describe

02:05:27

you at your funeral?

02:05:29

>> Have you Have you heard this before? Do

02:05:30

you may have even come up with this. I

02:05:31

had had this guy on the podcast called

02:05:33

Dooall Allen, multisport legend, uh,

02:05:35

podium, finished on the coast to coast

02:05:37

nine or 10 times, then became America's

02:05:39

Cup Cyclaw.

02:05:41

>> He he does some like 24 48 hour

02:05:43

adventure races. And one of his

02:05:44

teammates was um, Richie Mccau.

02:05:46

>> Yeah. And he said during one of the

02:05:48

nighttime challenges to keep everyone

02:05:50

sort of motivated, Richie went around

02:05:52

the team and got everyone to, you know,

02:05:55

to say three words they'd like people to

02:05:56

use at their funeral. And he couldn't

02:05:58

remember Richie's three words, but one

02:05:59

of them was integrity. And he he thought

02:06:01

it was an interesting word because even

02:06:02

though I'd only known Richie a couple of

02:06:04

days, uh, that is definitely one of the

02:06:06

words he would have used for him.

02:06:08

>> Yeah.

02:06:08

>> Is this is this one of your coaching

02:06:10

things? Did you give this to Richie or

02:06:12

>> No, no, no. Uh we often talked about uh

02:06:17

you know your story at what story would

02:06:19

you want them to

02:06:21

>> tell about you when you have your

02:06:23

grandchildren on your knee and or you

02:06:27

know your son or daughter has their

02:06:29

child on their knee and they're talking

02:06:30

about you. We talk about that a bit. But

02:06:34

uh no, the three things I know like does

02:06:39

it matter what they say?

02:06:42

Like at the end of the day, you're going

02:06:44

to have some people say he's a bastard.

02:06:48

Some people going to say, "Oh, you know,

02:06:49

he's brilliant." Um

02:06:58

the people to ask that question I reckon

02:07:00

are the people that are closest to you.

02:07:01

You know they'll they'll be able to say

02:07:03

it and you you can come up with all the

02:07:06

you like it to be integrity and you'd

02:07:08

like it to be this and you'd like it to

02:07:09

be that. But the reality is you know

02:07:12

people at funerals is you never hear

02:07:16

anyone say anything bad anyway. But

02:07:19

yeah, there's plenty of people that have

02:07:21

passed away that people have spoken

02:07:24

about badly before they passed away.

02:07:26

>> 100%.

02:07:27

>> So, I'm not too I'm, as I said before,

02:07:30

I'm at the stage of my life where, you

02:07:32

know, people can say what they like.

02:07:34

>> Not going to affect me anymore.

02:07:36

>> Um, and I'm not going to be allow other

02:07:40

people to

02:07:42

to judge me.

02:07:45

Um, the people that I love, they can

02:07:47

judge me

02:07:48

>> and and and I'll judge myself.

02:07:52

>> Yeah. Are you proud of yourself?

02:07:55

>> Uh,

02:07:59

am I proud of myself?

02:08:02

I'm,

02:08:03

you know, if you

02:08:08

look back to

02:08:12

a little boy that was born in Mosgill,

02:08:16

uh,

02:08:20

and to where I've come now, yeah, I'm

02:08:22

proud of myself. I'm proud of

02:08:26

uh being able to say I work with some

02:08:29

wonderful people uh who have given us a

02:08:35

lot of success in in sport.

02:08:38

Uh I'm proud to say I've got some

02:08:41

wonderful friends. Um and through that

02:08:43

we've had some success in horse racing

02:08:46

and and various other things. Uh, I'm

02:08:50

proud of the fact that I've grown as a

02:08:54

human being and way better husband now

02:08:56

than I've ever been. Um, yeah. So,

02:09:02

yeah. Well, I would be I think I can sit

02:09:06

here and say I'm proud of myself. Yeah.

02:09:07

But

02:09:10

>> I'm also realist enough to know that,

02:09:12

you know, I could have if I had life

02:09:15

again, would there be things I'd change?

02:09:17

Yeah. 100% and and all the way all along

02:09:22

the journey you change them and but

02:09:25

hindsight's a wonderful thing. You don't

02:09:27

get to um have another go,

02:09:31

>> you know, and if you do, I won't be

02:09:33

called Steve Hansen. I'll be called,

02:09:36

you know, Jenny May or who knows, you

02:09:39

know, like and and you don't get the

02:09:41

opportunity to

02:09:44

to bring the wisdom with you. Um,

02:09:50

this has been great, Steve. This has

02:09:52

been really good. Um, yeah, you've been

02:09:54

like a a dream guest uh for mine on the

02:09:57

on the podcast when I randomly reached

02:10:00

out to your son with a DM and um we made

02:10:03

this happen. I was really surprised and

02:10:04

it's been everything I hoped it would be

02:10:06

and more. Um, can I call you sir?

02:10:12

>> How's it how's it been for you? Do you

02:10:14

you okay?

02:10:16

Yeah, I mean it's it's a hell of a life

02:10:18

and there's a lot to reflect on and I

02:10:19

just wonder how you feel reflecting on

02:10:21

it for this length of time.

02:10:23

>> Well, I was probably haven't spoken

02:10:25

about myself like this uh for this

02:10:29

amount of length and time and you know

02:10:32

it's enjoyable um doing podcasts. I've

02:10:36

been lucky enough to do a couple of

02:10:38

them. Uh, and you get an opportunity to

02:10:41

actually express who you are and

02:10:45

uh, and have the opportunity to thank

02:10:48

the people that you've worked with.

02:10:50

Um, but at the end of the day, you know,

02:10:52

like we're we're just all people and you

02:10:56

know, some of us are lucky enough to be

02:10:59

successful at some things and you know,

02:11:01

whether it's academia or whether it's

02:11:03

sporting proess or or whatever it may

02:11:06

be. So, doesn't make us any better or

02:11:08

any worse than anyone else. It just

02:11:10

means it's who we are. and um through

02:11:14

our success uh you know our families

02:11:16

benefited and and you know I'm grateful

02:11:19

for that.

02:11:21

>> Well, I'm so incredibly grateful and

02:11:23

appreciative for your time today. It's

02:11:24

been amazing, mate. And thank you so

02:11:26

much.

02:11:27

>> Yeah, thanks Norman. I've enjoyed it,

02:11:28

too. So, and I enjoyed the coffee. So,

02:11:33

and you didn't even have to pay for it.

02:11:34

>> There he goes. Cheers, Steve.

02:11:37

>> Good, man. Thank you.

Badges

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Most heartwarming

Episode Highlights

Steve Hansen's Legacy
Steve Hansen reflects on the legacy of the All Blacks and the sacrifices made by players.
“It's a privilege to be able to coach the All Blacks.”
@ 04m 30s
July 13, 2025
The Media Relationship
Steve Hansen discusses his rocky relationship with the media and how he learned to communicate better.
“They’re not the enemy. They’re actually a group of people who are there to pass on the messages.”
@ 23m 13s
July 13, 2025
A Humble Acceptance
Hansen shares his thoughts on receiving a knighthood and the importance of representing his team.
“I’m representing them by saying yes.”
@ 27m 36s
July 13, 2025
Empathy in Coaching
Understanding that everyone has their own story is crucial for effective coaching.
“Don't be too judgmental.”
@ 40m 15s
July 13, 2025
The Role of Vulnerability
Realizing that vulnerability in leadership can strengthen trust and relationships.
“If you’re vulnerable, you work out well okay they trust you more.”
@ 48m 15s
July 13, 2025
Learning from Mistakes
You learn more from your failures than your wins. Embrace mistakes as stepping stones to success.
“You learn more from your fails than your wins.”
@ 01h 00m 37s
July 13, 2025
The Importance of Tough Conversations
Having tough conversations is essential for growth and team dynamics. Avoiding them leads to bigger consequences.
“If you don’t have tough conversations, there’s a consequence.”
@ 01h 07m 29s
July 13, 2025
Richie McCaw's Leadership
Richie McCaw was incredibly focused and competitive, often needing to trust his teammates more.
“You want it so much. You’re not trusting anybody else in the group.”
@ 01h 24m 43s
July 13, 2025
The Importance of Adversity
Adversity teaches valuable lessons for coaches and players alike, shaping their growth.
“Adversity is a wonderful teacher.”
@ 01h 39m 45s
July 13, 2025
Reflecting on Loss
Discussing the impact of losing his parents and the success they missed.
“Life's not fair, so there's no point being a sook about it.”
@ 01h 46m 41s
July 13, 2025
Living Life to the Fullest
At 66, he emphasizes the importance of enjoying every day.
“You just got to enjoy every day that I'm alive.”
@ 01h 59m 25s
July 13, 2025
Life's Journey
Steve discusses the importance of living authentically and not being judged by others.
“I'm trying to work really hard on not allowing other people to affect me.”
@ 02h 03m 55s
July 13, 2025

Episode Quotes

The greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak
It still hurts you to a degree.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak
The best gift you can give another human being is to value them.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak
Humor is a really important part of helping a rugby team diffuse pressure.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak
Adversity is a wonderful teacher.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak
Granddads are there to spoil grandkids.
EXCLUSIVE: Steve Hansen Lifts the Lid on Richie McCaw, Aaron Smith & World Cup Heartbreak

Key Moments

Emotional Toll00:04
Coaching Privilege04:30
Media Challenges21:13
Reflective Growth28:41
Vulnerability48:15
Team First1:21:42
Grandkids Joy2:00:41
Emotional Connection2:01:00

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

Sir Steve Hansen Like NEVER Before! #shorts

July 13, 2025

00:55

Sir Steve Hansen Like NEVER Before! #shorts

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September 07, 2025

02:02:36

EXCLUSIVE: Laurie Mains on 1995 RWC Poisoning & Rassie Erasmus Feud!

Craig Innes: The Real Problem with NZ Rugby!

March 11, 2026

02:16:43

Craig Innes: The Real Problem with NZ Rugby!

Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks

September 28, 2025

02:00:51

Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks

All Black Kieran Read shares pain of the 2019 World Cup loss | Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

October 20, 2022

01:16:38

All Black Kieran Read shares pain of the 2019 World Cup loss | Runners Only! Podcast with Dom Harvey

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

April 06, 2025

01:20:48

Jason Ryan: The Truth About Coaching The All Blacks & Working with Razor

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

June 29, 2025

02:05:15

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

Brad Thorn's Most Savage Moments from Legendary Career

February 22, 2026

02:28:00

Brad Thorn's Most Savage Moments from Legendary Career