00:00:00
and this has been one of the hottest
00:00:01
growing areas of financial services Adan
00:00:03
is not just a normal payment provider
00:00:06
while payments usually is a very unsexy
00:00:09
piece of our industry you guys made it
00:00:12
sexy growth in our Ona platform has been
00:00:14
very significant we investing for uh for
00:00:17
the future if you work with newer
00:00:19
technology you get to better quality we
00:00:21
completely rebuil the infrastructure
00:00:23
that typically is run by Banks and by
00:00:26
doing that we come to much better
00:00:27
conversion rates uh for our
00:00:30
customers ladies and gentlemen the co
00:00:32
CEO of
00:00:35
aen hi good see hi good see you hi good
00:00:39
to see you good to see you let me um
00:00:42
give just a little brief overview for a
00:00:44
second so Ingo has been with aen since
00:00:47
uh 2011 first as the CFO and now as co-
00:00:50
CEO since May of
00:00:52
2023 um aan is based in the Netherlands
00:00:55
uh founded in 2006 and is one of the
00:00:57
largest payment processors in the world
00:01:00
world today uh in 2023 Adan processed
00:01:03
nearly a trillion Euro in payment volume
00:01:07
uh they had net revenue of 1.6 billion
00:01:09
EOS and an e Jesus Christ a EIT 743
00:01:13
million EUR a 46% ea margin incredible
00:01:20
um it's a capitalist conference we
00:01:23
applaud for
00:01:24
Eva oh my God can you just say it one
00:01:26
more time
00:01:31
the company reported a 24% year-on-year
00:01:33
Revenue growth in
00:01:35
h124 they just expanded into India which
00:01:37
is really interesting we want to talk to
00:01:38
you about that um your market cap is
00:01:40
today actually I just checked about 45
00:01:42
billion American dollars um so it's one
00:01:45
of the most successful not just European
00:01:47
tech companies of all time but frankly
00:01:49
tech companies of all time so welcome
00:01:50
Mingo thank you thank you for having me
00:01:54
today um you're former CFO yeah I'm
00:01:58
going to put you on the spot
00:02:00
um you're no longer the CFO nor the
00:02:03
co-ceo of Aden you're an analyst at an
00:02:05
investment Bank yeah and J C your
00:02:07
managing director
00:02:10
says put together a spread trade you can
00:02:13
be long or short one of Aden and
00:02:17
stripe how do we construct the business
00:02:19
case that's a really good question just
00:02:22
just the parameters of how we construct
00:02:23
the case I would say if you look at this
00:02:27
industry um for ourselves and stripe
00:02:30
there is a lot to win because I think we
00:02:33
are the only two companies globally that
00:02:36
are investing in technology in financial
00:02:40
technology and if you look at where most
00:02:42
of the business currently is it is with
00:02:45
the traditional players it's the banks
00:02:47
it's incumbent players so I would
00:02:50
certainly go for long for both of us
00:02:53
because I believe that we together going
00:02:55
to change this industry uh that's how I
00:02:58
look at aen versus tripe we come from
00:03:01
different angles uh but what I really
00:03:04
appreciate about them is the fact that
00:03:06
they also innovate and uh competition is
00:03:09
good we're a company of a lot of
00:03:10
athletes we like to compete and
00:03:13
competition is good so when you do
00:03:15
compete in the marketplace are you
00:03:17
competing then with stripe or you
00:03:18
competing more with incumbents where
00:03:21
traditional players are looking for
00:03:23
payments and then yeah I would say like
00:03:25
of course there are areas where we
00:03:26
compete with stripe uh but if you see
00:03:28
where we win most of our business it's
00:03:30
with the traditional businesses so
00:03:31
indeed the incumbents the banks that's
00:03:34
where volume comes from U so that's and
00:03:36
and what do they find they find both the
00:03:38
cost is too high and then they find the
00:03:40
technolog is too brittle for what you
00:03:41
need to do today exactly I think if you
00:03:43
look at this industry um Banks
00:03:45
incumbents haven't invested for for ages
00:03:49
uh we build everything from the ground
00:03:50
up so we have a single platform globally
00:03:53
uh and what we can do is we can
00:03:55
basically uh lower total cost of
00:03:57
payments and uh increase your
00:04:00
authorization rates and that combination
00:04:01
is very powerful um and the reason why
00:04:03
we can do that is because we have lots
00:04:05
of data in a single platform now at the
00:04:07
end of the day you guys still sit on top
00:04:09
of these fundamental rails right like
00:04:11
meaning is there a way where we are in a
00:04:14
world where the traditional payment
00:04:17
infrastructure and then you know the
00:04:19
traditional credit card rails is there a
00:04:21
world soon where all of that disappears
00:04:23
or will that will there is there enough
00:04:26
like specifically the networks like
00:04:28
Swift the banks themselves El what role
00:04:31
why these people why ex why exist well
00:04:33
it's a good question I think indeed what
00:04:34
we try to uh to replace is the
00:04:37
fundamental infrastructure uh so in the
00:04:39
US uh we have our own access to the fat
00:04:43
we have a li a banking license in the US
00:04:45
uh so we don't need commercial Banks to
00:04:47
be successful uh and I think that's very
00:04:49
crucial in our development if you take
00:04:51
long term also on the platform side a
00:04:54
lot of small businesses they struggle to
00:04:56
work with banks uh and a lot of the uh
00:04:59
software service providers they of
00:05:01
course build banking as a service and
00:05:03
there are only a few companies globally
00:05:05
that can offer this and we want to be
00:05:07
that player that that that partner for
00:05:10
these type of companies to help them
00:05:12
sell Financial products uh so that's
00:05:14
also why we have expanded from payments
00:05:18
to broader Financial technology do you
00:05:21
have you ever had a conversation
00:05:22
internally which said something along
00:05:23
the following lines ah 46% DEA that's a
00:05:26
lot we don't need that you know how much
00:05:29
of that 743 million would grow the
00:05:32
business if we just took it to zero to
00:05:34
our investors for the next few years
00:05:36
like could I grow twice as fast is that
00:05:39
better in the long run how why why be
00:05:42
this profitable I guess maybe yeah I
00:05:44
think profit is for me the same as value
00:05:46
so if we deliver value and also have
00:05:49
premium pricing uh Merchants are willing
00:05:52
to pay a premium and pay the B basically
00:05:55
for the value that we bring and I would
00:05:57
be afraid that if we would just go for
00:05:59
the lowest price because I think we
00:06:00
potentially could uh we run at the
00:06:03
lowest cost as an infrastructure um you
00:06:06
would basically destroy a lot of value
00:06:08
that's in uh still in there and um I'm
00:06:12
not sure if you would just go for price
00:06:16
um that you have the right conversations
00:06:17
about the value that you bring so that's
00:06:19
the reason why we haven't done that so
00:06:21
far um but it's of course a question
00:06:23
that you should always ask yourself like
00:06:25
can you invest more in the business to
00:06:27
accelerate growth and that's still the
00:06:29
trade of the making every day our main
00:06:31
focus is on Revenue growth if we can
00:06:33
invest if we see an opportunity we will
00:06:35
but we have a long-term view there
00:06:37
what's it like building a company based
00:06:38
in the Netherlands what is it like
00:06:40
hiring people where do you hire people
00:06:43
do you make them come to the office yeah
00:06:45
how the culture changed yeah so building
00:06:48
an a company in the nland OR starting in
00:06:49
the nland at least at least um makes you
00:06:52
aware that you need to go International
00:06:55
from day one like the nland is a super
00:06:58
small country uh you can never build a
00:07:00
very successful business just based on
00:07:03
population there so we immediately went
00:07:05
uh International but in the beginning uh
00:07:08
we hired mostly into Amsterdam so we had
00:07:11
a very strongly focused amdam operation
00:07:13
and that shifted like uh 10 years ago so
00:07:16
10 years ago we uh went to the us we
00:07:19
started to build our team here uh
00:07:21
there's a very significant base here now
00:07:22
in the US we have more than 800 people
00:07:25
uh working in the US uh so it's our um
00:07:28
largest Market outside of Europe uh
00:07:31
growing fastest is already onethird of
00:07:33
our total revenues the US and I find
00:07:36
that um very interesting to see also how
00:07:39
that has changed our company we have a
00:07:41
different perspective on how we should
00:07:43
serve um Merchants I think not being
00:07:46
local uh in the beginning did not help
00:07:48
to solve the real problem so you need to
00:07:50
have product and Engineering very close
00:07:52
to where customers are and I think when
00:07:54
we made that shift um we got more
00:07:56
traction and with the current setup with
00:07:59
like over a third of our revenues
00:08:01
already in the US uh we see that we win
00:08:04
a lot of domestic Brands um and I think
00:08:07
we're also proving that payments is not
00:08:09
a commodity because do you do you find
00:08:11
it um is there differences in employee
00:08:14
issues employee quality between America
00:08:17
and Europe I think there are very
00:08:19
talented people in both markets um I
00:08:21
think the honestly the technology Market
00:08:24
of course in the US is way more
00:08:26
competitive than Europe I think we
00:08:28
benefit from the fact that in Europe we
00:08:30
are one of the few companies um so yeah
00:08:34
it's relatively easy we're our brand
00:08:36
awareness in in in Europe is higher than
00:08:39
in the US that's one of the things that
00:08:40
we're working on right now to make sure
00:08:42
that more people get to know us in the
00:08:44
end we're business to business brand uh
00:08:46
so that requires additional um push to
00:08:50
uh show what we do but we work for the
00:08:52
the largest companies globally whether
00:08:54
that's online with we work for Google
00:08:56
meta Microsoft for retail H&M Nike Gap
00:09:00
so there we work for the Best Brands and
00:09:04
by also having them as referral
00:09:05
customers it is better to get
00:09:08
into a country like the us if we were
00:09:11
sitting here sorry some of the like
00:09:13
challenges with being based in Europe
00:09:14
maybe not on the commercial side but
00:09:16
just on the shareholder side uh American
00:09:19
investors kind of public investors
00:09:21
private investors are mostly investing
00:09:23
mostly in private American and public
00:09:25
American companies is it hard to attract
00:09:27
a shareholder base does that affect the
00:09:29
valuation because it's challenging to do
00:09:32
so and if you look at the valuation
00:09:33
difference in the private market for
00:09:34
stripe versus your public valuation
00:09:37
there's a gap there's a difference in
00:09:39
the multiples your it's a 2X gap on
00:09:42
numers that look very similar and your
00:09:43
numbers are similar some of your metrics
00:09:45
are much better maybe I don't know if if
00:09:47
you want to explain the valuation Gap
00:09:49
difference or maybe just talk about the
00:09:50
challenges of building a shareholder
00:09:51
base and shareholder interest as a
00:09:52
European company yeah that's a good
00:09:54
question like when we uh our biggest
00:09:56
private round was in 2014 and then uh we
00:09:59
realized that we want to have Global
00:10:00
investor base that's when iconic uh
00:10:03
General Atlantic but also TASC from
00:10:05
Singapore came on board there's still uh
00:10:07
they have been very supportive in the
00:10:09
Years up until the listing we listed in
00:10:11
2018 and when I worked on the listing we
00:10:14
were quite convinced that we would list
00:10:16
in the US uh given the fact that um most
00:10:18
of Technology stock list here but we
00:10:21
when we looked at valuation and also
00:10:22
index inclusion Etc we realized that
00:10:25
listing in uh Europe was as easy as the
00:10:28
us or even e easier um and that from a
00:10:31
valuation perspective also if we
00:10:32
benchmarked it to other IPOs at that
00:10:34
time that we even got a premium for
00:10:37
listing in Europe because we have a
00:10:38
fully us uh almost like 60 65% at the
00:10:42
listing us investor base so it was
00:10:45
almost like a US
00:10:46
IPO um and we got a premium for being a
00:10:51
scare tax stock in Europe um and I think
00:10:53
that combination worked really well for
00:10:55
us there is a difference I think between
00:10:57
uh public and private Market
00:11:00
and I think that is that explains for me
00:11:01
a bit the difference in in valuation you
00:11:03
think that'll get rationalized over time
00:11:06
I think so ultimately if uhe TR if we're
00:11:09
if we're both public um you're going to
00:11:11
compare the same numbers and it's a
00:11:12
combination of growth rates and
00:11:13
profitability you ever do a deal would
00:11:15
you list in the US as well if if I would
00:11:18
list in the US like if there would be no
00:11:20
liquidity in Europe I would list in the
00:11:21
US but there's sufficient liquidity in
00:11:24
Europe so um you need to have certain
00:11:25
size but we have the size there is
00:11:27
liquid liquidity so it's not
00:11:29
yeah these valuations will merge at some
00:11:32
point when the people who are betting on
00:11:35
promise versus performance you know one
00:11:37
more the public market is performance
00:11:39
priv Mark these EIT margins are bananas
00:11:42
yeah it's fantastic so if we were
00:11:44
sitting here 10 years ago this entire
00:11:46
conference um would be you know uh
00:11:49
centered around crypto and this amazing
00:11:51
impact and how your business would
00:11:53
absolutely be destroyed by crypto and
00:11:55
there would be no need for banks or for
00:11:57
countries or for nation states
00:11:59
everything was going to be blockchain
00:12:01
yeah it was just everything's going to
00:12:02
be solved by blockchain and everything
00:12:03
goes away um and that obviously none of
00:12:06
that has happened but one thing that has
00:12:09
happened that's really promising um or
00:12:11
interesting is stable coins you have
00:12:13
Circle in the United States doing really
00:12:15
well going public um I believe they're
00:12:18
still on track to do that then you have
00:12:19
tether obviously banned in a bunch of
00:12:21
countries bunch of problems um and being
00:12:24
used for a lot of um illegal activity
00:12:27
I'm curious what your thoughts are
00:12:28
though on the concept of stable coins
00:12:32
and you know their their impact on the
00:12:35
industry and the business because it
00:12:36
does seem to be working especially
00:12:38
internationally we don't see it here in
00:12:40
the United States but in other countries
00:12:41
tether and circle these things are being
00:12:44
used for lots of transactions and people
00:12:46
believe they'll ultimately be used for
00:12:48
business transactions in a major way
00:12:50
what are your thoughts on stable coins
00:12:51
yeah so I think the question is like are
00:12:53
you looking at indeed domestic payment
00:12:56
flows and then of course I don't think
00:12:58
that there is a high need for stable
00:13:01
coins in well-developed markets and
00:13:03
ultimately we are processing
00:13:05
well-developed markets at the moment um
00:13:07
if it's about inde crossborder type of
00:13:09
transactions we still work with
00:13:11
relatively old systems like Swift um
00:13:14
with all their challenges they try to
00:13:16
innovate like that's the area where I
00:13:18
would see there is a a future for stable
00:13:21
coins indeed if you need to would you
00:13:22
ever consider launching one no I think
00:13:25
we would consider working with stable
00:13:26
coins so you might partner with a ex
00:13:29
yeah that's always been our model like
00:13:31
we we want to bring Financial technology
00:13:33
to our customers but also working
00:13:35
together with the partners that we have
00:13:37
because they are ultimately also making
00:13:39
the a lot of success and and that's
00:13:41
where we want to help them Ingo one of
00:13:43
the things that we talk a lot about is
00:13:46
censorship um but beyond idea censorship
00:13:49
there's an even more probably corrupting
00:13:52
thing which is financial censorship and
00:13:54
deplatforming and the the way that I
00:13:56
think it came on our radar
00:13:59
was there was these truckers in Canada
00:14:01
that were protesting Co a few years ago
00:14:03
and they effectively got deplatformed
00:14:05
from Financial Services um how do you
00:14:09
balance that as a company that becomes
00:14:11
this critical artery to send you know
00:14:14
money back and forth and process money
00:14:15
for millions and millions of people yeah
00:14:19
I think one of the ways how we want to
00:14:20
do this is work with a lot of platforms
00:14:24
that basically have these um truckers as
00:14:27
an example as a customer
00:14:29
and I think the unique thing of these
00:14:31
platforms they have a lot of knowledge
00:14:33
about these people and I think combining
00:14:36
that knowledge with uh providing
00:14:38
Financial technology is a very good
00:14:39
outcome because they have their
00:14:41
knowledge about the industry about um
00:14:44
the business data of these people uh
00:14:47
combined with what we know uh is needed
00:14:49
in the financial industry everything
00:14:51
around uh money laundering prevention
00:14:53
terrorism financing if you combine that
00:14:55
I think you have a very strong
00:14:57
proposition um and I think that that's
00:14:59
the answer to the more traditional
00:15:00
players like the banks that also don't
00:15:03
always have the knowledge to do this at
00:15:04
skill I think that's what we have been
00:15:06
timating uh from the start like
00:15:09
everything around AML machine learning
00:15:11
we we've invested highly in that to to
00:15:14
build something very scalable and that's
00:15:17
what we want to offer to our companies
00:15:18
is is it complicated being a European
00:15:21
company more than an American company in
00:15:22
that context where there's a lot of
00:15:25
points of view that Europe has and do
00:15:26
they try to exert that pressure or not
00:15:29
no I I think we have really shifted from
00:15:31
being a European company to a global
00:15:33
company and uh we need to comply with
00:15:36
local regulations everywhere we see
00:15:38
ourselves as much as a US company as a
00:15:40
European company uh if you look at the
00:15:42
operations that we've built here we want
00:15:44
to make sure that we can compete with
00:15:46
each and every uh competitor here in the
00:15:49
US on a uh on the same level so it's
00:15:52
needed as you that you comply with tell
00:15:54
us um tell us you're moving to India I
00:15:56
mean not you personally but the company
00:15:59
yeah the exposure in India is incredibly
00:16:01
dynamic as you know lots of varying
00:16:03
regulations as you also have probably
00:16:05
dealt with tell us about the journey in
00:16:06
India yeah it's a long journey um I
00:16:08
think we started to work on this in 2018
00:16:12
2019 and one of the most difficult
00:16:14
things is all the data localization
00:16:16
rules in India uh so if you have a
00:16:18
global platform uh we have distributed
00:16:22
database around the world and then you
00:16:24
need you realize that you you can't
00:16:26
store data in of of Indian people people
00:16:29
outside of India so we had to really rep
00:16:31
platform the data infrastructure that we
00:16:34
have but we did that we have local data
00:16:36
centers now in India we got all the
00:16:38
licenses and we're one of the few
00:16:41
International companies maybe the only
00:16:43
one right now that can offer this to
00:16:46
International companies that want to go
00:16:48
domestic or International companies that
00:16:50
want to go cross border and of course
00:16:52
this is um a relatively Niche U play in
00:16:56
India today today um but it's a high
00:16:59
need of our biggest customers totally
00:17:01
and and that's what we've always focused
00:17:03
on we follow our customers if they want
00:17:05
to go into a new country we make sure
00:17:07
that we're ready for it and this is a
00:17:08
long-term investment so this is already
00:17:10
six years going on um I mean to me India
00:17:13
is like China Circa 2005 so if you just
00:17:16
closed your eyes yeah and just bought
00:17:18
the entire country index in 2005 you'd
00:17:20
look back in 200 even now and you'd be
00:17:23
way way ahead and I think India's on the
00:17:26
verge of that multi-decade kind of
00:17:27
Renaissance with less regulatory risk on
00:17:30
the back end yeah well at least the
00:17:31
regulatory rules are very clear from the
00:17:33
start and I think that's what we
00:17:35
appreciate like ultimately our company
00:17:37
is a combination of Technology
00:17:38
regulatory knowledge and the right
00:17:40
banking licenses and if we play that out
00:17:42
well we are in such a unique position so
00:17:45
everybody is you know bling oh sorry Go
00:17:48
go Jason no no finish go there
00:17:50
everybody's talking about Ai and you
00:17:51
have to have an AI answer but what's the
00:17:53
real on the ground experience of trying
00:17:56
to build stuff with machine learning and
00:18:00
and AI is there anything in production
00:18:02
that really matters and absolutely how
00:18:05
do you think about the future so one of
00:18:06
the thing so there I think two angles to
00:18:08
this the first one is how we uh optimize
00:18:12
uh transaction routing uh we uh just
00:18:15
also launched uh a new way of us debit
00:18:19
uh routing in the US uh where AI helps
00:18:23
us to make the best tradeoff for
00:18:25
merchants to lower the cost so you get
00:18:29
20% plus lower cost uh if you route that
00:18:32
well and at the same time higher is
00:18:35
intelligently figuring out these rails
00:18:36
are cheaper in this moment process over
00:18:38
here and it's a yeah and it's of course
00:18:40
a trade-off with the authorization rate
00:18:42
right and yeah we work with uh eBay
00:18:46
Microsoft Etc to uh to launch this um
00:18:49
and very good results so and that's in
00:18:51
production that's in production that
00:18:53
runs W the other part the other angle is
00:18:55
of course what we do internal for our
00:18:57
support functions that's more on gen
00:18:59
um we are uh we've always built a
00:19:01
company around open source also here
00:19:03
we're open sourcing um the uh the models
00:19:07
uh but we have a lot of uh data of
00:19:09
course internally that we can use for
00:19:11
that have you have you found enough
00:19:13
motivation to displace or Reason to
00:19:16
displace the humans that do the
00:19:18
equivalent work or has that not happened
00:19:21
yet or will it happen do you think or
00:19:22
does the business just grow and
00:19:23
everybody is growing and and like we've
00:19:25
always had such a high uh focus on
00:19:27
automation if if you ask where does iida
00:19:30
margin come from that's because we if
00:19:32
you look at our volumes and the number
00:19:34
of people that we employ it's a it's a
00:19:35
really low number relatively um and we
00:19:38
will continue to do that so AI is going
00:19:39
to help us to further
00:19:41
scale um and I don't think that we are
00:19:44
come on okay Engle I have to push you
00:19:46
yeah I mean do you look at these
00:19:47
American companies burning this kind of
00:19:49
money to do a business that's smaller
00:19:51
than yours of this and like do you
00:19:52
scratch your head thinking how do they
00:19:54
what is going on over there do you think
00:19:56
that these are huge Investments and we
00:19:59
are uh closely following it like where
00:20:01
can we benefit from it but we're always
00:20:04
a bit of a smart follower I think that's
00:20:06
that's always been our strategy yeah
00:20:08
like what can we use and what can we
00:20:09
actually apply in production we are so
00:20:11
much focused on execution I think that's
00:20:13
also the only way to prove to uh like we
00:20:16
started the company with Enterprise
00:20:17
Merchants the only way to prove to the
00:20:19
biggest Merchants out there is to show
00:20:21
that you can do it and just talking
00:20:23
about it it's also not really European
00:20:25
just to talk about it we are doers we
00:20:27
like to build things and that's how
00:20:30
we've created it Ino I'm wondering um
00:20:33
how you look at um authoritarian
00:20:36
countries dictatorships monarchies
00:20:38
whatever um and providing Services
00:20:40
inside of those uh this has been a very
00:20:42
polarizing issue obviously um some
00:20:45
companies have chosen to not operate for
00:20:47
example in China because of Human Rights
00:20:49
issues and having to you know hand over
00:20:51
dissidents in the case of a social
00:20:53
network let's say or they're outright
00:20:54
band in them um and then you have this
00:20:56
Alliance starting uh the brick bricks
00:20:58
has expanded and added a bunch of
00:21:00
countries and there's talk about hey
00:21:02
maybe Swift we're going to get off of
00:21:04
Swift and we're going to create our own
00:21:05
brics version of Swift um are you
00:21:08
operating in those countries how do you
00:21:10
think about that and and there's a lot
00:21:12
of hand ringing about oh we're going to
00:21:14
be off the US dollar and and off of
00:21:17
Swift um what what are your thoughts on
00:21:19
that entire space take it where you'd
00:21:21
like so the way how we uh approach this
00:21:24
that we ultimately look at like what are
00:21:27
the markets that we want to be active in
00:21:29
China as an example I think the Chinese
00:21:31
domestic Market is a super difficult
00:21:33
Market to be active uh but we have a
00:21:35
huge team in China selling basically to
00:21:38
Chinese Merchants that want to go here
00:21:40
in the US uh and that's a very
00:21:42
successful route so we try to be
00:21:44
pragmatic here um ultimately if we can
00:21:48
comply with the local rules uh we will
00:21:51
um and it's it's a tradeoff like can you
00:21:54
do business somewhere there are
00:21:55
countries where we have chosen not uh to
00:21:58
go so far also because the demand is
00:22:01
limited also maybe it's an unstable
00:22:03
country um it's we do it on a country by
00:22:07
country bases at the moment now what
00:22:08
about this sort of anti- Swift movement
00:22:10
America has too much influence the West
00:22:12
has too much influence over the movement
00:22:14
of money they can do things like
00:22:15
sanctions as David's talked about on the
00:22:17
on the podcast a couple of times is that
00:22:20
real is it is there really going to be
00:22:22
an alternative to
00:22:23
Swift I think there is a there is a
00:22:26
likelihood there will be Alternatives
00:22:27
yeah and Al I think to your example on
00:22:29
stable coins like that could be an
00:22:31
alternative longer term also if there
00:22:32
are issues with with SH with uh Swift it
00:22:36
just may not be a legislative
00:22:37
alternative it may be more technological
00:22:39
like yours and others yeah yeah but I
00:22:41
think there are companies that also try
00:22:42
to solve this like to have less
00:22:44
depandance on Swift even in in in this
00:22:46
Western World yeah um do you guys run
00:22:50
sentiment inside of all these payment
00:22:52
flows or getting a sense of like the
00:22:55
economic health of certain countries and
00:22:57
um has there been any thought to sort of
00:22:59
sharing those so that um you know like
00:23:02
in America we go through these things
00:23:04
and Europe too unemployment rate comes
00:23:07
out you revise it uh GDP numbers come
00:23:10
out you revise it and nobody can
00:23:11
actually act on these things until
00:23:13
you're looking back 6 months which is a
00:23:15
ridiculous way to run an efficient but
00:23:17
I'm sure companies like your or stripe
00:23:19
Shopify yeah have you guys ever thought
00:23:21
of working together to create a a more
00:23:23
Dynamic view of economies it's certainly
00:23:25
something that we want to do with the
00:23:26
data I think currently what our
00:23:27
challenge is that most of our growth
00:23:29
comes from um share of wallet winds so
00:23:32
it's very hard to to um separate this
00:23:36
from the underlying growth yeah the
00:23:39
moment we become a more stable company
00:23:41
and that that's years away then I think
00:23:43
that's more possible but it's like the
00:23:45
data set that we sit on like we have I
00:23:47
think over a billion unique Shoppers in
00:23:49
our platform so it's a billion humans
00:23:52
yeah that that's a in that's yeah so
00:23:55
there there's certainly more to tell um
00:23:58
and and and that's absolutely
00:24:00
interesting topic do you ever see PayPal
00:24:02
in the market I'm just curious what ever
00:24:04
happened to it
00:24:09
yeah well PayPal is an important partner
00:24:11
of us so uh we work closely with them
00:24:13
also offering um we just did a press
00:24:15
release on their new Express checkout
00:24:17
that we do together with them so we see
00:24:20
them more as a partner as than a than a
00:24:21
competitor I think that's how how we see
00:24:23
them yeah um last question you we've
00:24:27
made a lot of fun of this whole thing
00:24:28
this past week founder mode manager mode
00:24:30
whatever um but precisely for you you
00:24:33
work as a co-ceo yeah which is a bit of
00:24:37
a unique setup um but when it works it
00:24:39
can really work and can you just
00:24:41
describe us to us how you guys have
00:24:43
built such a great business and how you
00:24:45
divide and share and conflict resolve
00:24:47
and what does it mean founder mode
00:24:49
versus manager mode yeah I think the way
00:24:51
how we built the company together so
00:24:52
Peter is the founder um he focuses
00:24:55
currently more on culture of the company
00:24:58
um and is doing a lot of founder
00:25:00
conferences meeting our uh Merchants we
00:25:02
all meet our Merchants quite often I see
00:25:05
a couple of merchants on on Thursday in
00:25:07
San Francisco so that's an important
00:25:09
part I think that's how we uh do this
00:25:11
but it's a partnership already like
00:25:14
for 13 14 years like that's the time
00:25:17
that I know Peter so it's very natural
00:25:19
way of doing things and we have both our
00:25:21
strengths and we have both our
00:25:22
weaknesses and we know it from each
00:25:24
other and I think that makes it a
00:25:26
successful combination thank you you
00:25:28
guys please join me in thanking ino for
00:25:32
joining
00:25:34
app thanks
